Tuesday Volume 570 12 November 2013 No. 75
HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT
PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)
Tuesday 12 November 2013
£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 781 12 NOVEMBER 2013 782
Looking at the estate as a whole we concluded that the House of Commons prison simply did not fit our strategic needs, but I am happy to discuss it with him in more detail on Monday. Tuesday 12 November 2013 Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): On the subject of the Ministry of Justice selling sites, I have The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock raised many times the issue of Fenton town hall, for which the Ministry of Justice and its predecessors have PRAYERS never paid a penny to rent or to purchase. Will the Minister now have a change of heart and give that [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] building back to the community of Stoke-on-Trent?
BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has stretched the elastic beyond snapping point. The question was broadened LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR by the content of the Minister’s answer, but not broadened LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] beyond the prison estate—that is the subject matter Third Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday with which we are dealing. The hon. Gentleman is very 19 November (Standing Order No. 20). visible courtesy of his moustache so he can try his luck later. HERTFORDSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL (FILMING ON HIGHWAYS)BILL [LORDS] Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): In commending 19 November (Standing Order No. 20). my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) on his energetic campaign to save Wellingborough prison, may I gently suggest to the Minister that Government papers must have become muddled on this prison, because Oral Answers to Questions it is extremely cost-effective? It has one of the lowest costs per prisoner across the prison estate. The Minister says that lots of money is needed to improve the site JUSTICE but, having gone round it myself, I simply do not think that that is the case. May I urge him to take my hon. The Secretary of State was asked— Friend’s advice and look again at this wrong decision?
HMP Wellingborough Jeremy Wright: First, I agree entirely with my hon. Friend that our hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough 1. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): For what (Mr Bone) has done a first-class job in advocating for reasons he has decided to sell the site of HMP his constituents, as he always does. That is his job, but Wellingborough. [901028] my job is to look at the prison estate across the country. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice I am afraid that my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Jeremy Wright): The Government should manage the (Mr Hollobone) is not correct about the costs of running prison estate in the most efficient and effective manner. a prison, which are made up of several components, As my hon. Friend is well aware, Wellingborough prison and a significant one is the cost of maintenance and the closed in December last year. Since then, we have looked cost of maintaining accommodation standards. On our carefully at whether the site should form part of our estimates, it would cost £50 million to bring that up to long-term capacity plans, and we have concluded that it standard, which is why we concluded that it was right to should not. It is therefore in the taxpayer’s interest to close the prison. There is a separate consideration about avoid unnecessary holding costs and to dispose of the whether it is right to retain the site, but for reasons that site. I have explained we have decided that it not the right thing to do. Mr Bone: I thank the Minister for his response, but he is completely and utterly wrong. Wellingborough Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): Can the prisons Minister prison is on a brownfield site, and there is massive room reassure the House that he and the Justice Secretary for expansion. People want an expanded prison there, know the figure at which Operation Safeguard kicks in, and millions of pounds have been invested in the prison. and that their officials have not advised them to introduce Will the Minister meet me to look at this again to stop it and that it will not be needed? him making a disastrous mistake? Jeremy Wright: The answer to the last question is yes Jeremy Wright: I can reassure the right hon. Gentleman and, indeed, I am scheduled to do so on Monday next that we are nowhere near requiring the provisions of week. I look forward to discussing this with my hon. Operation Safeguard. I have to remind him that his Friend in more detail. I am afraid that I do not accept Government needed to use Operation Safeguard which, that this was the wrong decision—we will discuss it in for those who do not know, is about using police cells more detail on Monday—but the original decision to because we have run out of prison cells. Not only did close the prison, as he knows, was based on the fact that the previous Government need to do that but they had substantial financial investment would be needed to to let people out early because they so mismanaged the bring it up to the required standard. The decision not to prison population. It takes some cheek for him to ask retain the site was, as I say, made after careful consideration. whether we are properly prepared. 783 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 784
Mr Rob Wilson(Reading East) (Con): Like Wellingborough, at the evidence session and I look forward to giving Reading prison has closed. Can the Minister reassure evidence to his Committee and discussing these matters me and my constituents that any disposal of the site will in greater depth. be undertaken in consultation with me and the local community? Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I am a little hurt, Mr Speaker, that you have not seen fit to Jeremy Wright: I can reassure my hon. Friend that it mention my moustache, although it has been there a is important that when we look at the disposal of these while. sites, we work together with the local authority and On a very serious point, the much-heralded Peterborough other key stakeholders to make sure that that is done pilot has delivered a 6% cut in reoffending, whereas the properly. As he will appreciate, what happens to the site integrated offender management project in Surrey and now is predominantly a matter for the local planning Sussex probation trust has achieved a 55% cut in authority, not for us, but we will co-operate in any way reoffending. Does such evidence have no relevance to we can. the right hon. Gentleman?
Probation Reforms Chris Grayling: The right hon. Gentleman will have to extend his moustache somewhat sideways if we are to give him credit in Movember. 2. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): What assessment he has made of the potential effect of his If the right hon. Gentleman looks at what has been planned probation reforms on the rate of reoffending. achieved at Peterborough, he will see that the most [901029] recent figures published two weeks ago showed a 20% reduction in the number of crimes committed by that The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice cohort, by comparison with a comparable cohort elsewhere, (Chris Grayling): Extending statutory supervision and that the Peterborough pilot is making genuine progress, rehabilitation to every offender released from custody, and that the integrated offender management schemes introducing an unprecedented nationwide through-the-gate around the country are also making good progress. It is prison service, and bringing in innovation of a diverse not an either/or. Our plans do not exclude—indeed, will range of providers will help to reduce stubbornly high actively encourage—the continuation of such schemes, and rising reoffending rates. but the reality is that reoffending is still rising.
Paul Blomfield: The Secretary of State will know that Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Does the Secretary of South Yorkshire probation trust is a high-performing State agree that the common probation system is not organisation that has delivered five years of significant perfect, which is the picture being painted by the reductions in reoffending against predicted rates. Its Opposition? In that light, will he release the internal performance is described as excellent by his Department. inquiry report by the probation service into the case of He also knows that his Department’s internal risk register Stephen Ayre who, after leaving prison, abducted and warns that there is a more than 80% chance that his raped a 10-year-old boy in my constituency as a result proposals to privatise the probation service will lead to of some appalling failures both in the parole system an unacceptable drop in operational performance. Will and in the probation system? he recognise the risk, face the facts, put public safety first and think again? Chris Grayling: In normal circumstances in a serious further offence the family will see the report that is carried out. I will happily meet my hon. Friend to Chris Grayling: The real risk would be not to accept discuss the issue. He rightly highlights the very real the fact that reoffending is rising in this country, and challenge we face with reoffending in this country, that each year thousands of people are victims of crime because when it does take place, families are the victims committed by people who leave prison unsupervised of what happens and sometimes go through terrible and unguided. That is what this Government intend to circumstances. Some 3,000 very serious crimes committed change. by offenders who get no supervision is something that we all need to stop. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will the Minister look carefully at the evidence session that Reoffending the Justice Committee held this morning and some of the practical difficulties that were raised there for achieving 3. Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): What steps he the objectives of his programme? Will he look with has taken to reduce reoffending and relieve pressure on similar care at any recommendations that the Committee the courts system. [901030] eventually makes, as the Department has clearly done in respect of our report on older prisoners, to which he 15. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What responded today? steps he has taken to reduce reoffending and relieve pressure on the courts system. [901043] Chris Grayling: I can happily give my right hon. Friend that assurance. The reason that we have built The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice into our plans a dry run-in period in the public sector of (Jeremy Wright): The best way to reduce pressure on more than six months after the initial structural changes the criminal justice system is to reduce reoffending and have taken place is precisely because we recognise the we seek to achieve this in prisons and in the community. need to ensure that the transition is smooth and extended For example, under our transforming rehabilitation reforms and that we iron out any wrinkles. I will look carefully every offender released from custody, including those 785 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 786 sentenced to less than 12 months, will receive statutory Jeremy Wright: There will be a number of contractual supervision and rehabilitation in the community. This is requirements on tier 1 providers, as indeed on other a step towards reducing high reoffending rates which is providers. But the key point that the hon. Gentleman widely welcomed, including by the Labour party, though must recognise is that we will reward tier 1 providers for I note that Labour Members voted against it last night. succeeding in reducing reoffending, and the way in which they will do that is to look holistically at all the Nigel Mills: With employment being key to preventing many factors that affect the likelihood of reoffending. reoffending, what steps is my hon. Friend taking to Education is one, training is another, and there are ensure that offenders in prison are engaged in purposeful many others. work or learning new skills that they can use on the outside? Mr Speaker: I am deeply obliged to the Minister. Jeremy Wright: My hon. Friend is entirely right to say that work plays a crucial part in the task of reducing 19. [901048] John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Will the Minister reoffending. He will be reassured to know that we are meet me and representatives of the Amber Foundation, having considerable success in raising the number of which achieves a reoffending rate of 26% compared prisoners who are working and the number of hours with the average of 70% for the age group that they deal that they are working too. We have already achieved a with? It is essential that Ministers understand the variety 25% increase in the hours worked in prison since we of experiences of smaller charities that have a lot to came to power. contribute in this area.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): A reduction Jeremy Wright: In principle, of course I am happy to in reoffending rates is a key ambition across the House, meet my hon. Friend and the Amber Foundation. He and it is crucial to engage all potential partners. What will recognise that as we proceed with our reforms and assessment has my hon. Friend made of how the third with the competition process, there are restrictions on sector groups can engage with expertise in new probation whom I can and cannot meet. Certainly I agree with contracts? him that such organisations have a huge amount to contribute to what we do, and even those that are not Jeremy Wright: Again, I entirely agree with my hon. specifically criminal justice charities also have a part Friend. The third sector—voluntary organisations—has to play. a huge amount to offer us in this context, and already does to a large extent. Our proposals to transform Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I am rehabilitation will bring more of those organisations frankly not reassured by the Minister’s earlier answer into the job of providing rehabilitation. We think that to my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield they have a first-class offering in many cases, and are (Mr Sheerman). Surely he is aware that not a single likely to be a large part of what we go forward and do. prison was rated as outstanding by Ofsted, and 65% were rated as not good enough. Is that not a shocking 21. [901050] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/ Co-op): Surely the Minister has read the Ofsted reports indictment of his rehabilitation revolution? on the quality of what happens to prisoners in prison. It is appalling that so many prisons fail to do the job of Jeremy Wright: Something tells me that the hon. working, educating and training people for release. Gentleman was planning not to be reassured. None the That is the problem—complacency on the Government less, let me try again. There is no complacency here. As I Front Bench. said to his hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), there is a huge amount more to do on Jeremy Wright: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the education and training of prisoners, but he must there is no complacency whatsoever. It is exceptionally recognise that this is something that we inherited from important that prisoners learn literacy and numeracy the Labour party. The situation was not perfect in 2010, skills, which many of them lack. It is also important and both sides of the House have more to do to understand that they develop vocational qualifications, because we the importance of this and to provide more of it. know that gaining those qualifications leads on to higher chances of employment, and maintaining a job is the Courts (Vulnerable Witnesses) best way we know of keeping someone away from crime. That is hugely important. The hon. Gentleman will also be reassured to know 4. Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): What steps that we are looking carefully at how we can improve he is taking to ensure that the needs of vulnerable education within the youth estate. As a former Chairman witnesses are properly considered in court. [901031] of the Education Committee he will recognise the importance of our duty to educate those young people The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims properly, and when the contracts come up for renewal (Damian Green): The Government are committed to next year, we will expect better. putting victims first at every stage of the criminal justice system. We are implementing a wide range of reforms Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): How does to make sure that victims and witnesses get the support the Minister reconcile the competing demands of tier 1 they deserve and to ensure that their voice is heard. This providers in reducing reoffending and disseminating includes work to improve awareness of, and access to, good information with the retention of data on intellectual support services and special measures in court, and the property? How will he reconcile those two competing piloting of recorded pre-trial cross-examination of issues? vulnerable and intimidated witnesses. 787 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 788
Helen Jones: Despite what the Secretary of State independence, and the new examination and reporting says, vulnerable witnesses, who are also often victims, scheme will result in fewer speculative and fraudulent still find themselves meeting perpetrators of the crime claims. in court, are still accused by barristers of being predatory and still see people accused of serious offences released Margot James: A constituent of mine was involved in on bail near their home. Why does he not agree with an accident in which the car in front of her made an Victim Support, victims themselves and his own former emergency stop. She swerved to avoid it and the two Victims’ Commissioner that a victims Bill is needed to vehicles made contact without significant impact, yet enshrine their rights in law? her insurers agreed to pay out a £4,000 claim for whiplash, which could not possibly have resulted from the accident, Chris Grayling: I am slightly surprised that the hon. without informing her, let alone consulting her. Will my Lady adopts a partisan tone in this regard. As I have hon. Friend look into the case to see whether there are just said, we have introduced pre-trial examination as a wider lessons to be learnt? possibility for giving evidence for vulnerable witnesses. That measure was introduced in a Bill in 1999, but the Mr Vara: My hon. Friend will appreciate that I am Government she supported did nothing about it for unable to comment on individual cases and am not 11 years. This Government have introduced it and it will aware of any plans by the insurance industry to make come into force next month. It is a practical measure to information of that sort available. However, I can say help vulnerable witnesses, which her Government legislated that I very much hope that the reforms we are putting in for and put out the press release but then did nothing place will ensure that fraudulent and speculative claims about, as was typical. of the sort she refers to are weeded out in the first instance. Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): The Secretary of State will know that some of the most Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Has the vulnerable witnesses are those involved in cases of stalking Minister made any assessment of the different levels of and harassment. Will he welcome the establishment of fraudulent claims in the regions of the United Kingdom? the all-party group on stalking and harassment, chaired Has he discussed the issue with the Northern Ireland by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd Executive, particularly given that many of the insurance (Mr Llwyd), and agree to meet him and me—I am the firms are based in the rest of the United Kingdom, vice-chairman—to discuss the issues facing witnesses in rather than Northern Ireland, where it is a major issue? such trials? Mr Vara: I am aware of certain figures showing that Chris Grayling: I very much agree with the points some areas have a higher propensity for claims than made by my right hon. Friend. I welcome the establishment others. We are in the process of consulting a broad of the new all-party group and would be happy to meet spectrum of stakeholders. If there are any we have her and the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd missed, I am more than happy for the right hon. Gentleman (Mr Llwyd). to contact me so that we can include them. Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Did the Motor Insurance Fraud Minister read the e-mail sent to us both yesterday by the victim of a whiplash sting? His insurer, without consulting 5. Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) him or any medical evidence, paid out £2,700, £1,600 of (Con): What steps he has taken to reduce motor which went to a claims management company, and then insurance fraud to help motorists with the costs of more than doubled his premium. Rather than blaming driving. [901032] genuine victims for the cost of motor insurance, why has the Minister not tackled the claims management 8. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): What steps he companies and insurers whose actions encourage fraud? has taken to reduce motor insurance fraud to help Is it because of the millions they give the Tory party motorists with the costs of driving. [901035] every year?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Mr Vara: The hon. Gentleman is clearly out of date. (Mr Shailesh Vara): On 23 October the Government If he did his research properly, he would be aware that announced a package of reforms to ensure the availability since January this year 800 CMCs have closed. This is of good-quality medical evidence in whiplash cases. an issue where we are trying to do good and where all Our reforms will create a robust system that deters stakeholders are working together for the greater good speculative and fraudulent claims. They will lead to of the public. It is regrettable that he is resorting to type reduced costs for insurers and lower premiums for and cannot recognise that he should be working to do honest motorists. good rather than being his usual destructive self. Victims (Criminal Justice System) Andrew Jones: I thank the Minister for that reply. How will he ensure that the medical panels are independent 6. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): and will help to stop bogus claims? What steps he has taken to increase the voice of victims in the criminal justice system. [901033] Mr Vara: I can assure my hon. Friend that our reforms will see experts commissioned jointly by both 13. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What steps he the claimant and the defendant and paid regardless of has taken to increase the voice of victims in the the outcome of the claim. The measures will help ensure criminal justice system. [901041] 789 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 790
The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims Damian Green: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his (Damian Green): This Government are committed to post and regret that his first question attacks the Victims’ putting victims first and we will give them a voice at Commissioner, who is doing an extremely good job. She every stage of the criminal justice system. The new is helping us with the victims code, and she has made a victims code published on 29 October will provide extra significant difference. She has reviewed the operation of support for victims and witnesses by offering them the probation service’s victim contact scheme. She will, greater protection throughout the criminal justice process, I think, show that the terrible experience she has had a louder voice, and better redress. Victims will now be herself will contribute to her role as Victims’Commissioner. able to say whether they would like to read out their I hope that across the Floor of this House we can get victim personal statement in court to explain how the behind the Victims’ Commissioner. crime has affected them. Illegal Drug Use (Prisons) Harriett Baldwin: The Justice Secretary has been to Hanley Swan post office and met my constituents, Alan 7. Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): and Ros Davies, whose lives were devastated by a cruel What progress is being made on reducing illegal drug attack from a prisoner on early release. Can he assure use in prisons. [901034] them, and other victims, that their voices and support needs will always be considered ahead of those of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice violent criminals? (Jeremy Wright): We are making good progress. As a result of effective prison security measures and working Damian Green: I am aware of the terrible consequences closely with health services to reshape drug treatment in of what was a very serious crime. It is precisely for such prisons, the proportion of prisoners testing positive for victims of crime that we are now providing a voice in drug misuse is the lowest it has been since 1996. court. If they so wish, they can read a personal statement to the offender, looking the offender in the eye, and Mr Streeter: Many of my constituents remain baffled many victims have said that that would have made a about why we cannot make prisons drug-free zones; very big difference to them in the past. successive Governments have not been able to do so. None the less, I welcome the recent through-the-gate reforms that my hon. Friend has introduced. Will he Karl McCartney: I was pleased to hear that the new explain how they will help offenders to come off and victims code will automatically inform victims of their stay off drugs? right to make a statement in court. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important that services for victims Jeremy Wright: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. On of crime are not only commissioned locally but that we his first point, he will recognise that one of the emerging maintain our existing courts structure? As a justice of challenges is the misuse of drugs that are not in and of the peace, I specifically include magistrates courts, which themselves illegal. In that regard, I commend to him the help to safeguard a local perspective. private Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), which I think Damian Green: I agree that it is important for victims answers that problem very effectively and I hope the to be able to inform the court directly, through the House will pass it. personal statement, about how a crime has affected them. I also agree about the great importance of magistrates On the through-the-gate reforms, again my hon. Friend for local justice; indeed, that is precisely why I am the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter) is leading work to broaden and strengthen their role in right that it is important that we undertake to all those delivering justice. providing drug treatment in prisons that what they begin will be properly completed; otherwise, they will not begin what may be long-term drug treatment Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Given that the programmes. That is why through-the-gate matters, and Minister has broken up the funding for victim support why our rehabilitation reforms will support people not and devolved it down to police and crime commissioners, only in custody but in their transition into the community and refused to make it mandatory in the Crime and and for some considerable time thereafter. Courts Act 2013, what guarantees can he give that some new scheme in future will provide uniform victim support Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May I commend to services across the United Kingdom? the Minister as his recess reading an excellent book, “Doing Time: Prisons in the 21st Century”, by the hon. Damian Green: Some services will continue to be Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman)? In chapter 2 he provided nationally, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman talks about 50% of those in prisons having a drug is aware. The bulk of the funding is indeed being problem. As the Minister knows, the Home Affairs devolved to police and crime commissioners, who are Committee has recommended mandatory testing on all enthusiastic, across party boundaries, to maintain arrival and exit. Are we any nearer to that? and improve victim services. Those who are closer to the specific problems of a local area are likely to be Jeremy Wright: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, more sensitive to the needs of that area than the old I do not agree with him that the right way to deal with top-down, centralist system that the right hon. Gentleman drug testing is to have a mandatory point at entry and still clearly hankers after. exit. He also knows that the main reason I disagree with him is that everyone knows where the points are and Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): Why are victims can see them coming. What I think is much more of crime not entitled to a full-time Victims’ Commissioner? effective is mandatory random testing, which is what we 791 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 792 do now, but, as I explained in answer to my hon. Friend The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter), we (Mr Shailesh Vara): The Law Society is one of 10 approved must all recognise that the problem that is emerging is regulators for which the Legal Services Board has oversight less about illegal drugs, dangerous though they are, and responsibility. It is independent of the Government. more about legal drugs that are being misused in our The Solicitors Regulation Authority is responsible for prisons. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will support investigating alleged breaches of its conduct principles. the private Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Stourbridge. Simon Danczuk: I raise this question because my constituent Paul Cowdrey now risks losing his home Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con) rose— because the Law Society advised him that if he raised his complaint he would not be liable for costs. He has Mr Speaker: We might learn more about the book now been ordered to pay more than £100,000 to the later, but we must move on now. I am saving the hon. solicitor whom he complained about. The Solicitors Gentleman up; he should not worry. Regulation Authority condemned the solicitor’s actions as morally reprehensible, but claimed it was unable to Probation Trusts take action. Does the Minister agree that a regulator that is unable to prevent solicitors from abusing their position is not fit for purpose, and will he investigate 9. Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) this case on behalf of my constituent? (Con): What steps he is taking to facilitate mutual ownership of probation trusts; and if he will make a Mr Vara: I am well aware that this is an ongoing case statement. [901036] about which the hon. Gentleman corresponded with my predecessor. However, the legal regulators and the legal The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice ombudsman are independent of the Government and (Chris Grayling): The transforming rehabilitation neither the Justice Secretary nor any of his Ministers competition process has been designed to allow a range have the power to intervene and it would be inappropriate of entities to bid to deliver rehabilitation services. This for us to do so in any individual case. The hon. Gentleman’s could include alternative delivery vehicles and mutuals constituent, Mr Cowdrey, needs to take independent designed by individuals within existing probation trusts. legal advice. The Cabinet Office’s mutuals support programme has made some of its £10 million funding available Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): to support mutuals interested in participating in the Does my hon. Friend agree that the primary role of the competition. This has included access to coaching and Law Society is to represent solicitors, and that the capability-building from experienced commercial mentors proper channel for consumer complaints is the Legal and leaders in the field. Ombudsman?
Paul Maynard: I thank the Secretary of State for that Mr Vara: Various channels are available for those reply. Will he reassure me that, while we have examples dealing with the conduct of solicitors, as well as the of good practice in local probation trusts and individuals service provided by them. Yes, there is provision and who want to transfer to a mutual status, those moves appropriate methods that need to be pursued. will not be opposed by the Ministry of Justice but, rather, facilitated? Probation Service
Chris Grayling: I can absolutely give my hon. Friend 11. Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): that assurance. Indeed, we held in this House a week What his policy is on the future of the probation ago, while we were all waiting for the Europe votes, a service. [901039] forum with potential bidders. It was gratifying to see among those in attendance a large contingent from the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice potential mutual bidders. I am very keen to see them (Chris Grayling): We are creating a new national probation make good progress in this process. service that will work alongside 21 new community rehabilitation companies to manage offenders in the Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): community. The national probation service will be tasked Will the Justice Secretary look again at the geographical with advising the courts and protecting the public from boundaries affecting Cheshire, because there seems to the most dangerous offenders. It will be responsible for be inconsistency with regard to how he, the Home risk assessing all offenders who are supervised in the Office and the police are thinking, and that is causing community. confusion among potential bidders? Mrs Lewell-Buck: Local service providers have expressed Chris Grayling: I can certainly do that. If the hon. concerns to me about how a fragmented service will Gentleman would like to write to me with his specific manage changes in offenders’ risk levels. Given that risk concerns, I will take a look at them. levels change in about a quarter of all cases, it will be common for offenders to transfer between providers. How will the Secretary of State ensure that the continuity Law Society (Handling of Complaints) of offender management does not suffer as a result?
10. Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): What assessment Chris Grayling: The most important part of the way he has made of the prevalence of mishandling by the the new system will work will be the co-location of Law Society of complaints against solicitors. [901038] individuals in the national probation service who are 793 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 794 responsible for risk management and the new community Jeremy Wright: The hon. Gentleman is right that we rehabilitation companies, to ensure that where risk does want people to have such programmes as quickly as we change there is a swift transition from one to the other. can get them. He will recognise that the statistics we might collect—statistics on this issue are collected locally— Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): In the Secretary of will mask the fact that some offenders need such State’s target operating model for probation there is programmes urgently while some can perhaps wait a welcome mention of restorative justice. Can he say little longer. I understand the point he is making, and anything more to ensure that awareness of restorative we will always try to supply as much information as we justice across the system is so embedded that it becomes can. In answer to the hon. Gentleman’s written question an option to be considered on all occasions, particularly on this matter, I pointed out that such information is to deliver much-improved victim support as well as the not collected centrally, which makes it hard for me to rehabilitative effect it has already demonstrated? give him a figure.
Chris Grayling: We very much recognise the importance Victims Services (London) of restorative justice. We are providing funding to police and crime commissioners to enable them to source 14. Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): restorative justice services locally, and give them the What his policy is on funding victims services in option of working closely with providers who will look London. [901042] after offenders in the future. We are keen to see that partnership work well at a local level, and for that The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims resource to be used to good effect in mitigating the (Damian Green): More money than ever before is being impact of crime on victims in the way restorative justice made available for services to support victims of crime, can do so well. with a potential total budget of up to £100 million—double the Ministry of Justice’s current spending of around Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Last night, when £50 million. That means that more will be spent on the Justice Secretary was not here, the prisons Minister victims of crime in London, with the Mayor of London assured the House that making decisions on how the majority of the money “if Serco and G4S do not come out satisfactorily from the audit will be spent. processes…they will not receive any contracts”—[Official Report, 11 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 744.] Mike Freer: The figures I have from the Mayor of for probation. The Minister is well regarded across the London show that victims in my constituency and House, and I am sure he will want to be clear about across London will receive a 40% cut in victim support. that. Does he mean the conclusion of the Cabinet Will the Minister agree to a capital city uplift so that my Office investigation or the investigation by the Serious constituents are not disadvantaged? Fraud Office? It will be of great concern to Members of the House if the Serious Fraud Office investigation is Damian Green: It is simply not the case that there will not concluded before contracts are awarded. be cuts in funding to London. As I have said, nationally, we are increasing funding considerably. Our current Chris Grayling: We must treat that issue carefully estimate is that, under the current indicative budget, because a potentially criminal investigation is taking London will receive more funding than is estimated to place at the moment. I will make an appropriate statement be spent under current Ministry of Justice funding to the House in due course about the way forward, but arrangements. We are determined to continue to provide in the meantime, because of the nature of the investigation, quality services to victims of crime both in London and I do not think it right for us to enter into discussion in the rest of the country. about it. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Offender Behaviour Programmes (LD): It is accepted that there will be more money overall but, from all the figures, it looks as if Greater London, which has more than one in four of all victims 12. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): What of crime and more than one in five of all crime referrals steps he is taking to increase the number of offender to victim support, will receive a much smaller percentage. behaviour programmes in English prisons. [901040] Is the Minister willing to accept an all-party group of London MPs to put the case for victims to be funded The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice properly? (Jeremy Wright): Our priority is to provide accredited offending behaviour programmes, which evidence suggests Damian Green: I am always very happy to meet my are most likely to reduce reoffending and protect the right hon. Friend and London colleagues from both public. The National Offender Management Service sides of the House. Indeed, I met the Deputy Mayor for has begun the process of negotiating programme provision Policing and Crime to discuss the subject yesterday, so I for 2014-15, and intends to maintain at least the current am well aware of the situation. I repeat that there will be level of investment. more money for London than there is under the current arrangements. Steve Rotheram: Will the Minister ensure that data are collected on the length of waiting lists for programmes Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Nevertheless, such as the offender behaviour programme, better to my right hon. Friend will be aware that victims of crime target resources and facilitate prisoner release when in North Yorkshire will receive £166 per head, but that they pose no further danger to the public? victims of crime in London will receive only £24 per head. 795 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 796
The fact is that £3 million extra is required to change latest shifting of the human rights goalposts offends the that anomaly. Will he agree to an uplift for the capital, rule of law, erodes democratic accountability and only rather than victimising the victims? strengthens the case for that overhaul of our relationship with the Strasbourg Court? Damian Green: I reject the thought that victims are being victimised. I can only repeat that, in London, as Chris Grayling: I very much agree with my hon. in the rest of the country, victims of crime will have Friend. The decision on whole-life tariffs was entirely more spent on the services available to them under our regrettable and should not have been taken, and certainly new system than under the current one. I would have not at the level of an international court. I assure him hoped that London Members welcomed that increase. and all colleagues that the decision simply redoubles my determination to deliver a strategy, which I will do next Knife Possession year, for our party to go into the next general election with a clear plan for change. 17. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): What assessment he has made of the most recent quarterly Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): On statistics on knife possession sentencing under the new 4 November in the Chamber, the Home Secretary said offence of aggravated knife possession, published in that we should consider replacing the Human Rights September 2013. [901045] Act 1998 with a British Bill of Rights. Given that the relevant commission reported to the Secretary of State The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice last December, when can we expect draft legislation to (Chris Grayling): Knives on our streets are a social abolish the Act in this Parliament? scourge, and that is why we introduced new mandatory minimum sentences for threatening with a knife. Few Chris Grayling: I can give my hon. Friend an assurance offenders have been sentenced so far, but the majority that we will publish proposals for change in the new have received custodial sentences. We are keeping this year, and they will include a replacement to Labour’s whole area under close scrutiny and I have raised how Human Rights Act 1998. I can also assure him that we, the offence is being sentenced with the senior judiciary as a party, will publish a draft Bill later next year. and the Sentencing Council. Whether the coalition and this Parliament will choose to accept such a Bill, or whether it needs to wait for a Nick de Bois: I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s majority Conservative Government, is something I suspect reply, but does he agree that Parliament has spoken, we will discover then. that the offence should carry mandatory sentences, and that sentencers should bear in mind the will of Parliament? Mr Speaker: I call Dr Pugh. Arise. Will he use the opportunity to press the case for introducing mandatory sentencing for possession as well? Whiplash Claims
Chris Grayling: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his 20. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): What progress he work in this area. I also pay tribute to the work done by has made on his reforms to the treatment of whiplash members of his community in Enfield, whom I have claims; and if he will make a statement. [901049] met and spoken to. I fully understand the nature of the impact of knife crime on their community and on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice communities around the country. I assure him strongly (Mr Shailesh Vara): On 23 October, the Government that we will keep the issue under review. The clear will announced a package of reforms to ensure the availability of Parliament is that such offences should be dealt with of good quality medical evidence in whiplash cases. Our with great severity. I hope that those presiding over our reforms will create a robust and independent system of courts recognise the will of Parliament. I also assure accredited experts to help the genuinely injured, and him that I continue to look at this area extremely deter dishonest claimants from making claims. carefully. John Pugh: I congratulate the Government on all Human Rights Claims they have done, which has been encouraging, but when will the number of whiplash cases in the UK reach 18. Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): anything like the EU average? What steps he is taking to curb the scope and volume of human rights claims. [901046] Mr Vara: The purpose of the measures is to try to ensure a reduction in the number of whiplash claims. At The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice the moment, we have the highest whiplash claims in (Chris Grayling): As my hon. Friend knows, we continue Europe. Given the quality of driving in some other to implement the work completed in the Brighton countries—I will not name them—we have to accept declaration, but he is aware that, as a party, the that the number of whiplash claims is seriously flawed. Conservatives are considering further measures that we That is what we are trying to address, and that is why we would introduce as a majority Government to reduce are introducing these measures. the scope of the Court in Strasbourg to impose unwelcome judgments upon us. Reoffending
Mr Raab: After Qatada and prisoner voting, the 23. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) latest ruling from Strasbourg demands that all lifers (Con): What steps he has taken to reduce reoffending have the chance to be released. Does he agree that that and relieve pressure on the courts system. [901052] 797 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 798
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice the funding for innocent victims of crime. For example, (Jeremy Wright): As I mentioned earlier, we believe that spending in Surrey and Hertfordshire will be £21.14 per the best way to reduce pressure on the criminal courts is victim, while the average in England and Wales will be to reduce reoffending, and we seek to do that both £15 per victim. Why, under his plans, will spending per inside prisons and out in the community. victim in London, at just £10.11 per victim, be 41% less than the national average? James Morris: What role does he see for new generation GPS tagging in tackling reoffending? Chris Grayling: It is nice to see the right hon. Gentleman launching his London mayoral campaign. I follow his Jeremy Wright: My hon. Friend is right that new Twitter feed, and for every tweet about justice, there generation GPS tags have huge potential. They will help are six about London. I will tell him simply and us to enforce more effectively various provisions of straightforwardly that under this Government the funding community orders and conditions of licence. We have available for victims of crime in London has increased only to imagine the potential of GPS tags to enforce significantly, as it has across the whole country. both curfews and exclusion zones to see what they might be able to do. We seek to take full advantage of Sadiq Khan: It is funny that the Justice Secretary says that new technology. that, because I used the Mayor of London’s figures for that question. According to the Mayor, the reason for Topical Questions the cut in London is that the Justice Secretary has decided to use a formula based solely on population, T1. [901018] Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): If he will while failing to take into account crime levels and the make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. number of victims in police force areas. That means that London loses more than £3 million a year, according The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice to the Mayor of London. As the Justice Secretary said, (Chris Grayling): In 2015 we will mark the 800th anniversary our justice system relies on the confidence of victims of the Magna Carta. To mark that defining moment in and witnesses, so he should be aware that the Metropolitan the development of modern legal systems, the lord police have the lowest victim satisfaction rate of any mayor of London and I are shaping a major programme police force in the country. What impact does he think of events and seminars to celebrate our justice system, his decision will have on that? and to promote the UK as a centre of legal services. The sector contributes £20 billion a year to the UK economy, Chris Grayling: I wish the right hon. Gentleman well and the global law summit will bring together leading with his campaign, but I know that the right hon. practitioners from around the world to show what our Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) is the frontrunner legal system can offer, share expertise and open up at the moment, so he has a bit of catching up to do. opportunities for collaboration in new business. My Only in the world of Labour party mathematics and Department has brought together the City of London, economics could an increased budget be described as a the Law Society and the Bar Council to plan the event cut. under the stewardship of the former lord mayor Sir David Wootton and my hon. Friend the Member for North T3. [901020] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham). I hope and believe the modern scourge of human trafficking is still with us. summit will be a great moment to celebrate our proud What action is my right hon. Friend taking to bring legal traditions in the Magna Carta and to look to the perpetrators to justice and to compensate the victims? future to promote our legal services, secure growth and win the global race. The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Damian Green): My hon. Friend will know that the Henry Smith: I welcome the celebration of the great Home Secretary will shortly be publishing a modern Magna Carta. In 2008, my constituent Carrie-Ann Wheatley slavery Bill that will deal with many of the issues that he was brutally attacked by three men who should not have rightly raises. Since July 2011, every trafficking victim been in this country. Her family are concerned that has received Government funding, via the Salvation article 8 of the European convention on human rights Army. The figures last year were about £3 million, with might be used to stop their deportation on their release about 928 victims having received this vital support from prison. I seek reassurance that the Government over the past year. will properly reform article 8. T2. [901019] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/ Chris Grayling: I can give my hon. Friend the absolute Co-op): The Secretary of State will know that 12 years assurance that both the Home Secretary and I are ago five children and three adults were murdered by looking at ways of tightening the rules. There are provisions a gang of wicked men. Recently, the Parole Board, against relating to article 8 in the Immigration Bill, and I am the advice of probation and forensic psychologists, hopeful that our proposed reforms to human rights released one of those men before his minimum sentence laws will strengthen the position of victims of crime in had been served. What is going on in the Parole Board the terrible situation that his constituents have found that it is releasing such men into the community? themselves in. We will make sure that the offenders do not get away with it. Chris Grayling: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Parole Board and its decisions are independent, but I Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): As a number of hope that one benefit of the establishment of the national Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members have probation service, with expertise in dealing with the commented, the Justice Secretary is cutting and changing highest-risk offenders, will be a greater degree of expertise 799 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 800 sitting alongside the Parole Board to advise it on when companies. So I cannot give him a figure, because each it is appropriate to release someone and when it is not. I case will involve a judgment for the national probation share his concern about ensuring it is safe to release service. people on to our streets and that they do not continue to pose a threat to society. T6. [901025] Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Are the Lord Chancellor’s proposed reforms on judicial review intended to reassert the primacy of Parliament over the T4. [901022] Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North courts, or to save money, or both? Hykeham) (Con): My right hon. Friend will be aware that there has previously been considerable disquiet within Chris Grayling: First and foremost, those reforms are the country over the effectiveness of community penalties, about ensuring that the justice system in this country is in both marking the gravity of offences and ensuring there for those who need it, and not used for purposes the effective rehabilitation of offenders. I know that he other than genuine redress. My view is that judicial is alive to those concerns, but I would be grateful if he review is being used at the moment as a delaying tactic told the House what steps he is taking to ensure they are and as a PR exercise. It does indeed undermine the will met. of Parliament and the will of the Executive, and it costs the taxpayer money. It should be used only when it is Damian Green: I entirely share my hon. and learned appropriate to do so, and not for trivialities. Friend’s concerns about public confidence in community sentencing, which is precisely why we have changed the Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Will the Justice system so that in the future every community order Secretary confirm that there will be no further court must contain a punitive element. Indeed, the Offender closures, which could undermine the administration of Rehabilitation Bill creates a new flexible rehabilitation justice? activity requirement to aid the rehabilitation of offenders while they are doing some community activity. Chris Grayling: We will continue to review the court estate on an ongoing basis, but at this time I have no plans for substantial court closures. There might be T7. [901026] Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) occasional changes in the system, such as those we have (Lab): Companies such as G4S and Serco have lucrative, seen recently in Liverpool, but I am not planning major multi-million-pound contracts to provide public services. changes to the court estate at this time. When will the Secretary of State adopt Labour’s plan to extend the Freedom of Information Act to these companies, T8. [901027] Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) so that the public have an equal right to know? (Con): What steps is the Department taking to tackle reoffending among female prisoners? Has the Minister Chris Grayling: I said I would not comment—and I come across the excellent social enterprise called will not comment—about the current investigation. I Working Chance? will simply point out that the issues regarding G4S and Serco relate to contracts let by the last Government. Jeremy Wright: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the excellent work that is being done with female offenders by various organisations in the voluntary T5. [901024] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): sector. Those organisations make a huge contribution Does the Secretary of State agree that we have a most in this regard. We are seeking to ensure that we recognise excellent prisons Minister who has many superb the particular characteristics of female offenders, that qualities? One of the best of his qualities is that when we address the significant problems caused by distance he has made a decision and new facts are put to him, he from home, which can have knock-on effects for family has the courage to reconsider and change his decision. life, and that female offenders have an opportunity to work outside prison and to re-engage with lawful society. Chris Grayling: The Under-Secretary of State for That is the basis for our reforms. Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) certainly has those qualities, Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): A previous Justice and he will undoubtedly look at all the issues carefully. Minister announced in a Westminster Hall debate that I Another quality he has is that, when he needs to take a secured just over a year ago that the Office of the Public difficult decision in the interests of the country, he will Guardian had launched a fundamental review of the do so. supervision of court-appointed deputies. Will the Minister tell us what changes will be made as a result of that Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): review? The Justice Secretary intends all those who are given The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice short prison sentences to be supervised on release. How (Mr Shailesh Vara): This is an ongoing matter, and we many will be allocated to the national probation service, are looking into it. I am happy to take on any comments and what funding is he making available? that the hon. Gentleman might have, and I will look into it. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright): The right hon. Gentleman will know, Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): South Yorkshire because the matter came up during last night’s debate, probation trust has reduced its reoffending rate by that the national probation service will carry out a risk 13.4% over its target, and it attributes that in part to its assessment for all short-sentence prisoners. It will then use of impact teams. However, privatisation is likely to decide whether to retain them because they are high-risk blow apart that collaborative working. Why are the offenders or to pass them to community rehabilitation Government pushing ahead with that plan? 801 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 802
Jeremy Wright: The hon. Lady might be referring to Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): A the local adult reoffending rate. The difficulty with that constituent had her name touted around Plymouth by a measurement is that it measures reoffending only over a woman taking part in a custody case who, because of three-month period. It is much more reliable to measure the cuts, had no legal aid and no support. This woman it over a longer period. She has heard me say many did not know that what she was doing was a contempt times that I recognise that much good work is already of court. What steps is the Justice Secretary taking to being done within the probation service, but that does review the impact of his cuts and the potential rise in not mean that there is no case for change. The case for contempt cases as a result? change is that we still have very high reoffending rates, and we think it is necessary to do something about that. Chris Grayling: We will, of course, continue to review Our proposals will do so. the impact of the changes we have made to legal aid, which were necessary because of the huge financial Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): One challenge we inherited in 2010. If the hon. Lady wants of the really bad ideas from the previous Labour to write to us about the specific case, we will of course Government was the so-called Titan prisons. The Attorney- look at it. General, the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) said so, as did the Justice Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): How many Select Committee, and I might even have said so myself. foreign national offenders do we have in our prisons, So will the Secretary of State tell my why that really bad and what steps are being taken to send them back to idea might now be considered a good idea? secure detention in their own country? Chris Grayling: We are not building Titan prisons. The proposed new prison in Wrexham, for example, will Jeremy Wright: I am ready for this one this time! The be a campus prison with a number of separate small answer is 10,833, and my hon. Friend and I are in units for 250 to 300 prisoners. It will benefit from the agreement that that is far too many. As we have discussed economies of scale achieved by shared facilities, but we before, the answer is that we need to make more use of will not create a single monolithic institution in which compulsory prisoner transfer agreements. I can tell him people are detained. that, as he knows, we have a compulsory prisoner transfer agreement with Albania, and 77 Albanian nationals Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ have been referred to the Home Office for immigration Co-op): In 2004, 16-year-old Robert Levy was murdered enforcement and deportation. He knows, too, that we in Hackney Town Hall square. His parents, Pat and Ian, are part of the European Union prisoner transfer gave evidence to the murderer’s parole board this summer. agreement—another compulsory PTA—under which Just recently, they received an insensitive and bureaucratic 277 EU nationals have been referred to the Home letter from Victim Support, requiring them to go through Office. We are making progress, although it is not as several hoops and to provide a lot of paperwork in quick as either of us would like. order to claim the train fare. Let me quote Mr Levy: “We are tired of jumping through hoops whilst on the face of Mr Speaker: I hope the hon. Gentleman now feels things it appears the perpetrator has it all done for them without fully informed. much trouble to them.” We have a code and a commissioner, so when are Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Can the we going to see an approach that will make it easier for Justice Secretary explain why the Mesothelioma Bill is victims? cited in the Ministry of Justice review of the mesothelioma exemption as one of the recommended criteria for Jeremy Wright: As the hon. Lady knows, I have met bringing into force sections 44 and 46 of the Legal Aid, her constituent, Mr Levy, and I have to say that I was Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012? extremely taken with his courage and dignity. I am very Those sections have nothing to do with the Mesothelioma disturbed to hear what she says; if she gives me the Bill. opportunity, I will look into it. Chris Grayling: Off the top of my head, no, but I will Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Last week, a happily trade letters with the hon. Lady and we will find devastating report entitled “The Payment of Tribunal out. Awards” was published. It found that less than 50% of people received full payment of an award following a successful employment tribunal. Does the Minister agree Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Does the Secretary of that more needs to be done to enforce these claims? Will State agree with me that the comments by Frances he meet me, my colleagues on the all-party parliamentary Crook of the Howard League for Penal Reform—that group on citizens advice and representatives from Citizens magistrates should not be able to send people to prison Advice to find ways to resolve this shocking injustice? at all—are typically idiotic? Does he further agree that the only Howard worth listening to on criminal justice Mr Vara: I am, of course, happy to meet my hon. matters is Michael Howard and not the Howard League Friend and his constituents. I would say, however, that for Penal Reform? in the context of the tribunal, there are two individual parties and none of the damages is owed to the state, so Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. we have to be careful. We can provide advice and, where It is always important for long-standing influential possible, assistance, but at the end of the day, enforcement pressure groups to make sure they take a measured and has to be dealt with by the two parties concerned. As I responsible view in the discussions they have both in say, I would be happy to see my hon. Friend. public and with Government. 803 Oral Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 804
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): My Mr Speaker: I call Sheila Gilmore to ask her question, moustache and I are most grateful, Mr Speaker. More lastly and very briefly. seriously, I remain optimistic that the Secretary of State will have a change of heart over Fenton town hall that was used by the magistrates and give it back to the Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): In May, the people of Stoke-on-Trent. If he does not, what assurances now Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and can he give that the buyer that we think is waiting in the Sport, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald wings and subsequent purchasers will protect the first (Mrs Grant), announced a new pilot in which tribunal world war memorial that is located in that building? judges would give detailed explanations to the Department Many thousands of people are concerned about its for Work and Pensions of their reasons for allowing future. employment and support allowance appeals. When can we expect an evaluation of that pilot? Mr Vara: I commend the hon. Gentleman for his patience. I can assure him that, in the event of any transfers of the building, there will be a covenant to Chris Grayling: We are engaged in detailed discussions ensure that the new owner preserves that very important with the DWP.We are now providing it with much more and historic monument, which is a tribute to all who detailed information, and paying close attention to the paid the ultimate price in the first world war. lessons that are learnt from that information. 805 12 NOVEMBER 2013 Urgent and Emergency Care Review 806
Urgent and Emergency Care Review We will look at Sir Bruce’s report extremely carefully. Reform of the urgent and emergency care system may take years to complete, but that does not mean that it is 12.35 pm not achievable. We are exceptionally fortunate in this country to have in the NHS one of the world’s great Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): (Urgent Question): To institutions. NHS staff are working tirelessly to ensure ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will update that the care that people need will continue to be the House on Professor Sir Bruce Keogh’s urgent and available to them, wherever and whenever they need it. emergency care review following this morning’s briefing to the media. Andy Burnham: Rarely has this House been treated to a more disrespectful and complacent reply. There are The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): new reports today of 12,000 patients spending 12 hours In January this year, the board of NHS England launched or more on trolleys in A and E. A and E is in crisis a review of urgent and emergency care in England. according to the College of Emergency Medicine, and Urgent and emergency care covers a range of areas, this is before the winter has even started. People are including accident and emergency departments, NHS increasingly asking, “Where are the Government and 111 centres and other emergency telephone services, what are they doing about it?” So far all they have heard ambulances, minor injury units, and urgent care centres. is, “Crisis? What crisis?” But behind the scenes it is a The review is being led by Professor Sir Bruce Keogh, different story. Such is the panic in Whitehall, the Prime NHS England’s medical director. A report on phase 1 Minister has apparently taken personal charge and this of the review is being published tomorrow, and it is morning the media were given a private briefing on a embargoed until then. [Interruption.] This is an NHS major review of emergency care. What is going on and England report, and NHS England is an independent why is the Secretary of State running scared, blaming body, accountable to me through the mandate. The NHS England and trying to keep this House in the report that will be published tomorrow is a preliminary dark? It should not be for us to drag the Secretary of one, setting out initial thinking. [Interruption.] State here to give Members information already passed to journalists. Mr Speaker: Order. There are highly charged feelings Let me remind the House what the Secretary of State on this matter, but the Secretary of State has been asked said at Health questions in July. He said that Bruce a question, and his reply must be heard. Keogh’s review “will report this autumn, precisely so that we can make sure we learn any lessons we need to learn for this winter”.—[Official Mr Hunt: I should underline the fact that this morning’s Report, 13 July 2013; Vol. 566, c. 902.] briefing was under embargo, an embargo which, to my knowledge, has been respected. The final version will be To hear him now, it was all about the long term. Let me published in the new year. ask him: what are those lessons, and what immediate action is he now taking ahead of winter? Sir Bruce has said that he will outline initial proposals Weekend briefings suggested Sir Bruce emphasises and recommendations for the future of urgent and alternatives to A and E, such as walk-in centres and emergency care services in England, which have been 111, but Monitor reported yesterday that one in four informed by an engagement exercise that took place walk-in centres have been closed and others are today between June and August this year. There will be further under threat of closure. We need a clear answer. Will the consultation on the proposals through a number of Secretary of State stop further closures of walk-in channels, including commissioning guidance and centres? Does he now accept that his 111 helpline is demonstrator sites. Another progress report will be flawed, and will he put nurses back on the end of produced in the spring of 2014. the phone, rather than call handlers? And what of the Decisions on changing services are made at a local recruitment crisis in A and E? There is a shortage of level by commissioners and providers, in consultation senior A and E doctors and, according to the Royal with all interested parties. That is exactly as it should be, College of Nursing, 20,000 too few nurses. Will the as only then can the system be responsive to local needs. Secretary of State give a clear commitment to bring all It is vital to ensure that both urgent and emergency care A and Es back up to safe staffing levels? and the wider health and care system remain sustainable Last week, a complacent Prime Minister stood there, and readily understandable to patients. A and E told us everything was fine, and even claimed that the performance levels have largely been maintained, thanks average waiting time in A and E had gone down to to the expertise and dedication of NHS staff. A and E 50 minutes, but that is not true. I have here a written departments see 95% of patients within four hours, and reply from the public health Minister telling us it has the figure has not dropped below the 95% target since gone up to over two and half hours. When are the the end of April. However, urgent and emergency care Government going to show this House and the country is falling behind the public’s needs and expectations. some respect, cut the spin, and give us the real picture The number of people going to A and E departments about a crisis that is happening right now? has risen historically, not least because of an ageing population. A million more people are coming through Mr Hunt: Mr Speaker, I will tell the right hon. the doors than in 2010. Winter inevitably challenges the Gentleman what complacency is: it is refusing to have a system further, which is why we are supporting the most public inquiry into Mid Staffs, where staff in A and E under-pressure A and Es with an additional £250 million. departments were bullied and harassed when they tried Planning has started earlier than ever this year, and the to speak out. He did not think it was worth having a NHS has been extremely focused on preparing for public inquiry into the poor care that his Government additional pressure. swept under the carpet and which we are doing something 807 Urgent and Emergency Care Review12 NOVEMBER 2013 Urgent and Emergency Care Review 808
[Mr Jeremy Hunt] Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): May I assure the Secretary of State that the people of Exeter are not about. There is one figure that he refused to mention: confused about their walk-in centres, but appreciate the A and E performance figures published last week of them and have been using them in ever-increasing numbers? 96.4%—hitting the target, higher than the previous week, These centres are now under threat, so will he at least higher than this time last year. That sums it up: in a admit that closing NHS walk-in centres and scrapping good week he wants to run down the performance Labour’s GP access targets has been a dreadful mistake? of hard-working staff whereas this Government are backing them. Mr Hunt: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman might Why are we having an A and E review? It is to clear like to hear what the British Medical Association said up the mess and confusion caused by 13 years of yesterday about walk-in centres. The BMA is not known Labour mismanagement of our emergency services. for its support of Government policies, but it said that The right hon. Gentleman talks about walk-in centres. urgent care centres Why were they introduced? Because of the disastrous “were often opened in places with little patient demand…The mistake over the GP contract. The brave thing for his result has been a lot of money being spent on these facilities with Government to have done would have been to admit some now closing because commissioners have found there is not they got that wrong and reverse it, but they did not. sufficient demand”. They introduced a whole new raft of services, which That is the problem we are sorting out. confused the public: A and E, walk-in centres, GP surgeries, telephone helplines. Tomorrow we will sort Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): One long-term out those problems. Yes there are difficult decisions, but cause of pressures in our A and E departments is the they are decisions his Government ducked and left the lack of parity of esteem between physical and mental public exposed as a result. health. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is Before the right hon. Gentleman runs down our A unacceptable that two thirds of people experiencing a and E services, let me just gently remind him that he mental health crisis do not get access within four hours talked about a recruitment crisis, but we have 300 more to a psychiatric assessment? Was it not a failure of the A and E consultants than when he was Health Secretary, previous Government not to set access standards for we have nearly 2,000 more people—[Interruption.] I people with mental health problems? Is it not time, as am sorry that this is difficult for those on the Opposition the mandate does today, to deliver just that? Front Bench to listen to. We have nearly 2,000 more people being seen within four hours every single day Mr Hunt: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right than when the right hon. Gentleman was Health Secretary about that. We do need parity of esteem between mental —that is some 700,000 more people every year. We have and physical health. The situation puts particular pressure more hospital doctors, more hospital nurses, more on A and E departments, including the one closest to treatments and fewer long waits than when he was this House, at St Thomas’s hospital, where people said Health Secretary, and he should celebrate that improvement that the biggest single worry they have and the biggest in our NHS’s performance, instead of trying to run single thing that makes it difficult for them to meet their down the people on the front line. targets is the lack of quick access to psychiatric services. We are looking at this matter and he is right to highlight it. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman something else we are doing. We are tackling the long-term causes of Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): The Minister pressure in A and E that his Government absolutely said that changes taking place in urgent and emergency failed to do: not just the GP contract but also the care are done locally for local need. What does he think integration of the health and social care system, the of the following statement made by Sir David Nicholson lack of which means that hospitals are not able to last week before the Select Committee on Health? He discharge people from their beds on time, causing huge said: pressure. Today, the shadow Health Secretary has shown his true colours. The man whose Government made so “We are bogged down in a morass of competition law…we have competition lawyers all over the place telling us what to do, many wrong decisions about A and E is exposed as which is causing enormous difficulty.” trying to make political capital while this Government sort out his mess. Does the Secretary of State not agree that the Government were warned about that when they brought in the David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): How many extra Health and Social Care Act 2012? They were told that lives does my right hon. Friend expect to save through competition law was going to create chaos in the NHS, consolidating the A and E facilities in London, by and it is doing exactly that. having a smaller number of hospitals with more doctors? Does he expect to replicate that across England? Mr Hunt: I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that some of the competition law powers that are being Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The used and are causing Sir David worry were actually changes we announced in north-west London will save from the Enterprise Act 2002, which we are now looking hundreds of lives, by using principles that we will hear at to see whether we can sort it out. more of from Sir Bruce tomorrow. In particular, we are putting 800 extra people into out-of-hospital care, which Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): will help the frail elderly, many of whom should never Is the Secretary of State aware that hospitals in Norfolk go to A and E—it is the most confusing place that have recently made it clear to MPs that one of the key someone with advanced dementia can go. If we can drivers of a big increase in people going to A and E is treat them at home, it is better for them and for our the fact that many people are not going to their doctor? hard-working A and E departments. Does he agree that it is essential that the GP contract of 809 Urgent and Emergency Care Review12 NOVEMBER 2013 Urgent and Emergency Care Review 810
2004 is rewritten so that doctors provide that 24/7 fewer managers. We would not be managing to hit our cover? When will he be able to sit down with the BMA A and E target today if we had not taken the difficult and make real progress to right a serious mistake that decisions that the Leader of the House took when he the Opposition made? was doing my job.
Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend speaks wisely. The most Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Geography senior A and E doctor in the country, Professor Keith dictates that my Montgomeryshire constituents depend Willett, said that he thought that between 15% and 30% on A and E services in hospitals in England. Will my of the people attending A and E could be looked after right hon. Friend reassure us that devolution will not be in the community. This is a root cause of pressure. I am allowed to create a health care iron curtain between afraid that the Labour party needs to show some humility England and Wales, and will he ensure that decisions on before it starts whipping up public concern about problems A and E services in Shropshire take account of the that it had a very big part in making. I am in the process interests of my constituents? of discussions with the BMA, and I hope my hon. Friend will not have to wait too long for some good news. Mr Hunt: We will absolutely ensure that there is no iron curtain, but I must say that the increasing number Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): of people coming from Labour-run Wales to seek treatment Will the Keogh review genuinely examine the lack of in England is an indication that people are voting with parity in respect of those who are physically ill and their feet because they know where the NHS is being those who are mentally ill? We are already suffering better run. from a crisis in emergency mental health beds in London and we are seeing an increasing use of A and E departments Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): On repeated for those who are mentally ill. Surely we should be occasions in this place, the Health Secretary has claimed looking at an increase in walk-in centres for the mentally to be saving A and Es when his proposals would remove ill, which have proven to be remarkably effective in intensive care units in many hospitals and allow blue-light helping those on the brink of a serious fall. ambulances to go sailing past their doors. Will the Health Secretary tell me what his definition of an A and Mr Hunt: The hon. Lady is absolutely right that the E is? urgent emergency care we offer to people with mental health problems is not up to scratch and needs to be a Mr Hunt: That is exactly what tomorrow’s report is great deal better. Different solutions will be appropriate designed to clarify. It is not for me—[Interruption.] Let in different parts of the country, but often going to a me say very straightforwardly—[Interruption.] normal A and E is not the right approach. We need to consider whether, when people have such conditions, Mr Speaker: Order. I can scarcely hear the Secretary there can be better access to people who know them, of State’s answers, and I want to hear them. Let us hear their medical history and their condition and who are in the response. a position to advise them in a way that means they do not end up doing what I have seen happening time and again in A and Es, where people end up as frequent Mr Hunt: Thank you, Mr Speaker. fliers, going again and again to an A and E just because The hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) there is nowhere else to go. That is one thing that we are will know that her constituents have some of the best trying to sort out tomorrow. stroke survival rates in England because we reduced the number of hospitals in London offering stroke services David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): We have heard a from 32 to eight. I am not going to stand in the way of lot today about NHS A and E services in England. Will those changes if they save lives. my right hon. Friend tell the House whether there are any lessons to be learned from A and E services in Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I very much look Labour-run Wales? forward to the review, which is urgent. Given that accident and emergency departments do not operate in Mr Hunt: Wales has not met its A and E target since isolation, will the Secretary of State assure me that the 2009 because the Welsh Government followed the advice review will consider the whole system, including support of the shadow Health Secretary and cut the NHS services, critical care units and the availability of specialist budget by 8%. consultants—particularly those in paediatrics—who need to be available for an A and E to function effectively? Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): This Government have been in power for three and a half years. They Mr Hunt: No one has campaigned more assiduously could have chosen to remedy some of the continuing than my hon. Friend for his local hospital, despite the problems in the health service, but what did they do? incredible tragedies and difficulties that it has been They decided to reorganise it from top to bottom. Is through and the pressures that has created for the there any wonder there is a crisis this winter? Instead of people of Stafford. He is absolutely right: if we are closing A and Es and walk-in centres, why does the going to solve the problem, we must consider the system Secretary of State not walk away? It would give him holistically and consider how different A and E departments more time to count his money. can specialise services. We need much more of a hub- and-spoke system, rather than one where every A and E Mr Hunt: Let me tell the hon. Gentleman that thanks has to offer exactly the same menu of services. If we do to the reorganisation that he is so bitterly against, we that, we will save more lives and that has to be the right have 5,500 more doctors on the front line and 8,000 thing to do. 811 Urgent and Emergency Care Review12 NOVEMBER 2013 Urgent and Emergency Care Review 812
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend speaks extremely wisely. Following Monitor’s report yesterday on the closure of We have talked about stroke, so let me give another walk-in centres, is it not the case that at the heart of the example, which is trauma. We have cut mortality rates Government’s NHS reforms is a massive shift in power by 20% as the result of a strategy to specialise trauma from the consumers—the patients—to the producers of care. Those are the difficult decisions that the Government services? When the Government’s slogan is, in effect, believe that we should not duck and that we need to “All power to the producers”, it is not surprising that face up to. If I may say so, when the Opposition were in services have been reorganised in a way that does not power, they took a slightly wiser approach to the issue benefit patients. May I suggest that instead of sticking than the party political posturing we are getting today. up for the BMA, the Secretary of State starts to stick up for patients? Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): The Secretary of State earlier quoted the suggestion that GP walk-in Mr Hunt: After what happened at Mid Staffs, we will centres were in the wrong places, where there was little not take any lessons on sticking up for patients—none demand. Last year, 33,000 people used the under-threat whatsoever. We are taking the power out of the hands Accrington Victoria hospital walk-in centre, and now of the managers in PCTs and SHAs and putting it into there is deep anger with the Conservative party. Will he the hands of doctors on the front line who are seeing explain how 36,000 people going to overstretched Royal patients every day.That is the best thing we can possibly do. Blackburn hospital A and E will help the situation there? Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): My constituents tell me that they much prefer to go to their doctor than Mr Hunt: The hon. Gentleman makes my point for to any other centre. Will the Secretary of State try to get me extremely eloquently.Under the previous Government, more doctors involved in out-of-hours care? we had a top-down, ham-fisted policy of opening walk-in centres everywhere as a sticking plaster solution to the disasters with their GP contract. Sometimes they were Mr Hunt: That is the tragedy of what happened in valuable services, sometimes they were not. We are 2004, when the personal link between doctor and patient clearing up the mess, but sometimes, when those centres was broken because the previous Government abolished are useful and important for the public, we will keep named GPs for every patient. My hon. Friend speaks them. very wisely, as that is exactly what most members of the public want—they want to be able to get in and see their Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): The origins of own GP quickly and easily. That is at the heart of the the recruitment crisis in A and E obviously predate this problem that tomorrow’s review of A and E will seek to Government. Will Sir Bruce Keogh’s review highlight address. the local trusts, like that in Gloucestershire, which appear to have significantly worse recruitment and retention Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): records than neighbouring trusts and have used it as a Notwithstanding the brilliant local work of nurses and rationale for downgrading services—such as, in this doctors, hospitals like those in the Brighton and Sussex case, those at Cheltenham general hospital? University Hospitals NHS Trust face real challenges, including bed shortages and people having to wait for Mr Hunt: I hope that it will. I hope that it will give many hours for tests such as X-rays and so on. Sometimes, clarity about the long-term future for A and E departments, people wait in A and E for 12 hours for a bed. Does that which has been a difficult issue for this Government not demonstrate how reckless and dangerous it is for and for the previous Government. What people want is the Secretary of State’s Department to impose cuts of stability, and they want to know that there is a Government £30 million on that hospital trust this year and next who are prepared to face up to difficult decisions. They year, and will he reconsider? want to know that they have a future, and I hope that tomorrow’s review is the first step towards providing Mr Hunt: Let me gently remind the hon. Lady that that security. we have protected the NHS budget—we took a very difficult decision—but how the NHS budget is spent in Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): local areas is a matter for local discretion. It is challenging Is the Secretary of State aware that the A and E crisis is for all hospitals, because if we are to address the long-term creating a huge backlog in specialist procedures, and stability of the NHS we need to spend more money out will Paul Keogh’s review take that into account? of hospitals, which means finding efficiency savings in hospitals. We do not want to duck those challenges, Mr Hunt: The number of people waiting more than a which is why we are having the review that will be year for an operation has gone down from 18,000, when published tomorrow. the hon. Gentleman’s Government were in power, to fewer than 1,000 now. We have reduced long waits at a Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): My time of great pressure on the NHS, so I do not recognise right hon. Friend will be aware that there are concerns the hon. Gentleman’s figures at all, I am afraid. about whether blue-light ambulance services will continue to define what an A and E is. Does he agree that for Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): My right hon. some years now victims of stroke, trauma and other Friend will have seen the disastrous reports that have serious problems have not necessarily gone to their local come in about Barking, Havering and Redbridge University A and E but to specialist hospitals, and that that has Hospitals NHS Trust, with some of the most alarming been the reason behind the excellent improvement in things including a report of a baby being put in a stationery outcomes? cupboard. I am sure that, as he said in a recent debate, 813 Urgent and Emergency Care Review12 NOVEMBER 2013 Urgent and Emergency Care Review 814 he will conduct a full review of King George hospital. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): The crisis Can that be done urgently, as we are now in a very in nurse vacancies and recruitment highlighted today by serious situation? the Royal College of Nursing affects the North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation trust, which tells me Mr Hunt: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for raising that it has been forced to recruit trained nurses from the both publicly and privately his concerns about the Philippines, as there are insufficient UK nurses available. hospital provision that his constituents face. We shall of What is the Secretary of State doing to address that course make sure that there is a proper review before particular part of his failure? any service changes are made. I hope that he will be reassured by the big change that happened this year Mr Hunt: I have to gently say to the hon. Gentleman with the introduction of an independent chief inspector that recruiting nurses from the Philippines did not of hospitals, who is going round the country rooting happen for the first time under this Government. One out poor care, not sweeping it under the carpet, as reason why those nurse vacancies have gone up is that happened so often under the Labour Government. the Government decided to conduct a public inquiry into what happened at Mid Staffs. The system reacts to that by wanting to hire more nurses, and I think that he Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Does the Secretary of should welcome that, not criticise it. State regret the loss of 6,000 nursing jobs since the last election? Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): The report by the Health Select Committee on the A Mr Hunt: The number of hospital nurses has gone up and E crisis found that only 16% of hospitals had the since the election, and as a result of the changes in the right level of consultant cover in A and E. Yesterday, we Francis report—the hon. Gentleman’s party refused to learned that half the vacancies for senior A and E have a public inquiry many, many times—I hope that doctors are unfilled, as doctors move to work overseas. the NHS will recruit many more nurses. The issue of staffing in A and E has been understood for the past three and half years, and there have been Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): My hon. repeated warnings and reports. What has the Secretary Friend the Member for Northampton North (Michael of State done to address it and make sure that A and E Ellis), the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford), my wards have sufficient staff cover? hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) and I have come together on a cross-party basis, and are Mr Hunt: Recruiting 300 more A and E consultants working with local clinical commissioning groups and than when the hon. Lady’s Government were in power. Kettering general hospital to try to attract more investment to our local A and E because of the increase in the local Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): What has the population. May I share with the Secretary of State the Secretary of State got to say about the fact that in my fact that all agree that up to a third of attendees at A area, compared with four years ago, it is harder to get a and E could be better treated closer to home, particularly GP appointment. We no longer have NHS Direct, and in excellent urgent care centres such as that in Corby? cuts in adult social care mean that patients are not making room for other patients to go to A and E. The Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend speaks extremely wisely. person raising that with me is the chief superintendant He invited me to visit Kettering hospital, and I saw for of Darlington police, who is fed up with his officers myself that it was a very, very busy hospital. In the end, being held up by taking patients to A and E, as those if we just stick with the current model we will reach patients would otherwise wait more than an hour for an bursting point, which is why we need to look at new ambulance? models. That is why tomorrow’s review is important, and part of that—in fact, the bulk of the work in Mr Hunt: The hon. Lady makes some important tomorrow’s review—is about how we transform out-of- points, and I congratulate her on being the first Opposition hospital care, which is the big strategic change that we Member to raise the fact that it has become harder and need to make in our NHS, and on which I am afraid the harder to get an appointment with a GP. [Interruption.] previous Government made so little progress. I know that it is hard to accept, but it is a fundamental problem, and a challenge facing our A and E departments that the Government are determined to sort out. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Tomorrow’s review is supposed to deal with issues to do with this winter. Will Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Before tomorrow’s the Secretary of State give the House an assurance that report on the urgent and emergency care review, may I there will be no crisis of A and E on his watch this tell the House that in Northern Ireland, we treat urgent winter? referrals by direction to the doctor on call and linking up with the chemist. Emergency referrals are done Mr Hunt: A and E departments are under huge through hospitals, showing good practice and delivery? pressure. We are seeing about 1 million more people Is the Secretary of State prepared to contact the Northern every year than three years ago, and we have done more Ireland Assembly and the Minister responsible to see this year than has ever been done in NHS history to how best practice works? help to prepare the NHS for winter, including giving £250 million to 53 local health economies where the Mr Hunt: I am in regular contact with the Northern pressures are greatest. We continue to monitor the Ireland Minister for Health, Social Services and Public situation very, very closely to give more support where Safety about good practice in Northern Ireland, and I we can. am delighted to hear that they are doing some good 815 Urgent and Emergency Care Review12 NOVEMBER 2013 Urgent and Emergency Care Review 816
[Mr Jeremy Hunt] in the local area. First, will the Secretary of State reassure us today that the A and E department at things in urgent and emergency care. We should be open Ealing hospital is safe in the future? Secondly, will he to all good practice, not just in our country but all over meet me and my colleagues from the west London the world. area—I have written to him—to discuss our concerns and so that we can express our feelings? Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The Secretary of State may have seen the report in The Sunday Times Mr Hunt: I am always happy to meet colleagues if at the weekend about the dispute between the medical they have concerns about what is happening in their director for London, who said that 20% to 30% of constituency, but I absolutely stand by what I said. blue-light A and Es should close, and Sir Bruce Keogh, There will remain an A and E at Ealing. That was the who said that less than that should close. Disgracefully, decision that I made because I wanted to give clarity, the Secretary of State has not told us what is in Sir Bruce but I also said that the shape and size of that A and E Keogh’s report, but we know that it is below that figure, may change in accordance with the announcement that so why did he announce to the House two weeks ago is being made tomorrow by Sir Bruce Keogh. I hope that four out of nine—45%—of blue-light A and Es in that will give the hon. Gentleman further clarity and west London would close, pre-empting the Keogh review? further certainty to reassure his constituents.
Mr Hunt: Because it is going to save the lives of the Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Secretary of hon. Gentleman’s constituents; it will mean that 800 more State has already acknowledged that keeping people in people are employed in out-of-hospital care; it will their own home is one important way to relieve the mean three brand-new hospitals for the benefit of his pressure on A and E. I do not understand why, if he constituents; it will mean seven-day working; and it will wants to make a real difference, he will not reinvest the mean seven-day opening of GP surgeries. That is why. NHS underspend to make up for the cuts in local government and put it into social care. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On reflection, does the Secretary of State regret the fact that he described people who felt ill enough to have to go to A Mr Hunt: We have put in an additional £2 billion—that and E on a number of occasions as “frequent flyers”? makes a total of £3.8 billion being invested to support And would he like to apologise? the social care budget. That is significant because it is recurring expenditure. We have shown our commitment by continuing to support the social care system through Mr Hunt: I am sorry, that is a completely ridiculous this Parliament. The trouble with underspends is that thing to say. I was using the phrase to talk about people they depend on how many resources we have in any who have to go back to the NHS time and again. The particular year. It is therefore much harder to invest off whole purpose of the reforms is to make sure that we the back of them. give a better service to people who regularly use the NHS, and he should understand perfectly well what I was talking about. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Co-op): The Secretary of State has spoken about the Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): importance of continuing care from one’s own GP to What discussions has the Secretary of State had with limit admissions to A and E, yet in Hackney, when GPs his colleagues across government about the need for tried to take over and run the out-of-hours service, the urgent additional investment in social care? Surely he commissioners were paralysed by the fear of legal challenge appreciates that the savage cuts to local authority social and, rather than putting patients’ interests first, put the care budgets have only added to the pressure on accident rich lawyers’ interests first. and emergency units. Mr Hunt: If I may say so, it was the Government Mr Hunt: I find it a little difficult to take a lesson whom the hon. Lady supported who removed the from the right hon. Gentleman, as his Government cut responsibility for out-of-hours care from GPs. I welcome social care funding per head when they were in power and want to help any GPs who want to take it back. and when the economy was in much better shape than it has been since the financial collapse that they caused. If Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): This Secretary he looks at what we announced this summer, he will of State has been forced to answer more urgent questions know that the Chancellor announced an extra £2 billion in the House than even the Prime Minister about Mrs Bone. of support for the NHS budget going into social care to When will he stop blaming others about the mess he has deal with precisely the problems that he raised. made of our NHS, take some responsibility for the top-down reorganisation and get on with the job that he Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Last has been over-promoted to do? week, the Secretary of State assured—[Interruption.] Mr Hunt: Let me tell the hon. Gentleman how well Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, the NHS is doing. If one listens to the rhetoric from the but there was a lot of noise. I am sure that the House Opposition Benches, one could completely underestimate will wish to hear his question—let him start again. the hard work of people on the front line. There are 800,000 more operations being carried out every year in Mr Sharma: Last week the Secretary of State assured the NHS than ever happened under Labour. At the me that A and E at Ealing hospital is safe, but since then same time, long waits for operations have gone down. I we have heard very confusing and contradictory statements think that is something to be proud of. 817 Urgent and Emergency Care Review 12 NOVEMBER 2013 818
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Points of Order The response that the public health Minister gave to my written question showed that ambulance response times have increased over the past two years in 11 out of 1.14 pm 12 trusts in England. Why is this happening? Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last night at 9.9 pm, as the Prime Mr Hunt: Just as there is more pressure on A and E Minister was addressing the lord mayor’s banquet in the departments, there is also more pressure on ambulance City, the Chancellor announced that the autumn statement services. We are treating that as very much part of how would be moved from Wednesday 4 to Thursday we support accident and emergency services over the 5 December, to accommodate a prime ministerial trip coming period. There are particular pressures in the London to China and get the Prime Minister out of answering area, the east of England and the east midlands, and we Prime Minister’s questions again. are doing everything we can to put those problems Aside from the spectacle of major announcements to right. the House being arbitrarily shifted around to avoid inconveniencing the Chinese communist party, is it Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The Secretary appropriate that the Chancellor announced this change of State referred to the Chancellor’s recent announcement on Twitter and not to the House? Even today, it has not about money for social care, yet this is only a tiny been confirmed by a written ministerial statement on fraction of what the Government have already taken the Order Paper; nor was it mentioned during last out of the social care budget through their 30% cuts to week’s business questions. Given the fact that the Chancellor councils. Did he not realise the impact that that would announced the original date by Twitter, too, will you have on A and E, or did he just not care about it? rule on whether the Chancellor’s conduct is in order?
Mr Hunt: I am very conscious of the pressure that Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the hon. Lady for having to sort out Labour’s deficit is creating on all her point of order. Government Departments, but the Opposition cannot have it both ways. They cannot say that they are in The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew favour of fiscal responsibility and then complain about Lansley) rose— every single cut. The difficult decision that this Government took was to protect the NHS budget. That is something Mr Speaker: The Leader of the House can come in in that the Opposition did not agree with. They wanted to a moment, with pleasure. I am obliged to the hon. Lady cut the budget from its current levels. for giving me advance notice of her intention to raise the point of order. The original date of the autumn statement was announced to the House during an earlier business question. I am sure that we are all extremely grateful for the long notice given. However, if something has been announced to the House about its future business, I would consider it courteous for the House to be informed formally of any change before the wider world was informed. A written statement would usually suffice if there were not sufficient occasion or urgency to justify a supplementary business statement. That is my very clear sense of the matter. I am obliged to the Leader of the House for his presence. If he wishes to rise to his feet, we are keen to hear him.
Mr Lansley: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for raising the point of order, as it gives me an early opportunity to confirm to the House that the autumn statement that was previously announced during business questions as taking place on Wednesday 4 December will now take place on Thursday 5 December.
Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Leader of the House for that. He will, I hope, have heard the statement from the Chair. To put it very candidly and bluntly, these announcements should be made to the House, not by the mechanism of Twitter. I think it is pretty clear.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You are used to the Government making announcements to the press before they come to the House to make them. What happened this morning is different. The press have been privately briefed and the Secretary of State for Health has come to the House still not prepared to tell the House what is in the Keogh 819 Points of Order 12 NOVEMBER 2013 820
[Mr Andy Slaughter] Permitted Development (Basements) review. Is this the first time this has happened? Do you Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order agree that it should not happen again? Will you now No. 23) order that the Keogh review is put in the Library today, so that we do not have to wait till tomorrow to find out 1.18 pm what is in it? Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): I beg to move, Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for That leave be given to bring in a Bill to regulate the construction his point of order. He asks whether this is the first time of new basements and extensions to basements; and for connected that this has happened. There are very few firsts in this purposes. place; most things have happened before at some stage In a growing city, where house prices are enough to or another. I am not sure that it is within my bailiwick make grown men cry, what could have made more sense to insist upon the deposit of the report today, as the than amending the permitted development regulations hon. Gentleman rather earnestly beseeches me to do. I in 2009, to allow residents to use their space more hope that he will not take offence when I say that he is effectively and to build an extension, an attic conversion rarely satisfied about anything. He is an experienced or a basement to provide more room for a growing parliamentary hand and he knows that Members apply family? Such is the logic that underpinned the amendment for permission to put urgent questions, and it is for the of those regulations, and the trend has been accelerated Speaker to decide whether to grant the urgent question. under this Government. I did grant the urgent question, which carries its own What no one could have foreseen is the impact that message about my sense that it was important that the that would have in certain neighbourhoods in my issue should be aired in the Chamber today. The hon. constituency, and particularly elsewhere in central London, Gentleman took part, I believe, in the exercise, and I which is shocking even the most zealous advocates of think we will leave it there for today. planning deregulation. The grounds for such deregulation have literally, as well as metaphorically, been cut from underneath the feet of those advocates. In my own borough of Westminster, the number of approvals given for basement excavations almost trebled between 2010 and 1012, while the number of applications that were refused fell: 518 basement applications have been made in the past four years alone, with only one in seven being refused. My understanding is that the figure for Kensington is closer to 1,000 applications, with 800 accepted. We should be in no doubt about the extent to which this trend will ripple outwards, particularly into more affluent communities. Two factors make this picture even starker. First, basement excavations are overwhelmingly concentrated in a small number of postcode areas—Bayswater and St John’s Wood in my constituency, with the same pattern is emerging in Kensington, Hammersmith, Camden and Brent. As the south-east Bayswater residents association says, “Due to high property values there is inexorable pressure to build on every inch of spare space—now mainly by excavating basements, often with the loss of a garden—because building upwards is well controlled.” Secondly, and crucially, we are not talking about the modest adaptation of a home for a growing family, or at least the kind of growing family that does not need a ballroom. Basement excavations have included ballrooms, swimming pools, spa complexes, gyms, gun rooms, private cinemas and garages with lifts and turntables for cars. They are not so much basements as vast subterranean pleasure palaces. Some people call them icebergs. I have likened looking down into one such scheme in St John’s Wood as being on the deck of an aircraft carrier. One development in Kensington was recently described as being eight times the size of a typical London house. A Westminster example was described thus in the Evening Standard: “Two mansions in Mayfair back on to each other,” and the owners’ plan “is to link them with a tunnel, creating a 14,000 sq ft underground area, with an enormous games room, sauna, pool, media room, 821 Permitted Development (Basements)12 NOVEMBER 2013 Permitted Development (Basements) 822 car park and a plant room. Above that will be further bedrooms, We have a shared interest in the preservation of our staff rooms, two suites, a laundry room and security rooms. If water table and the need to preserve soakaway capacity. and when it is completed, the combined home and its underground The St John’s Wood Society says: area will be marginally smaller than Westminster Cathedral. “Our planning committee is fully committed to doing all we In another case, four extra underground storeys include twelve can to preserve the character, gardens and historic buildings of bedrooms, seven bathrooms, a huge ballroom, a swimming pool, the Conservation Area. We are…constantly thwarted by the lack a hot tub, sauna and a massage room…carved out, going deeper of adequate planning policies to support our objections to excessive into the London soil than the neighbouring buildings are tall. The basement applications which are submitted, more often than not, Duchess of St Albans, a neighbour…has described the plan as by developers who have little or no interest in the area. ‘absolutely monstrous and unnecessary’ because ‘no one needs that much space’. Unfortunately, current planning policy does not provide case officers with robust grounds for refusal which can be successfully It is estimated that this scheme will involve shovelling 1,375 upheld on appeal. Not only do these works take a long time to skipfuls of earth from under the house.” carry out…several schemes are being developed either simultaneously Serious incidents arising from these excavations are, or consecutively and the situation has become intolerable for an thankfully, still rare, but even so a skip fell through the ever increasing number of…residents. We are not against anyone road in a development in Belgravia last year, while a improving and extending their homes…but the new brand of builder was buried alive in excavation works in Fulham. home extension in the shape of vast excavation works needs Worryingly, the Health and Safety Executive has delivered addressing urgently.” a damning verdict on the lack of safety in building sites Councils have found themselves unable to resist the across west London neighbourhoods where downward rising tide of basement development, so now, for or five extensions were taking place. In April, the HSE reported years in, they are developing local policies to restrict that one in three of these luxury bunkers is being built what can and cannot be done. But here is the rub, and with reckless disregard to the safety of the builders. It the purpose of my Bill today. There is a real risk that made unannounced visits to 110 domestic basement their policies will turn out to be unenforceable. Already, extension sites in the capital in March. It served Kensington council has had to delay the introduction of 50 prohibition notices and stopped work at 34 sites. new, tougher policies, amid fears that they will not Poor excavation or structural support was found to be a withstand a well-funded appeal. And well-funded appeals recurrent problem, along with unsafe working at height, there will definitely be, since developers are investing, which is perhaps ironic for sites below ground level. The and hoping to gain from, sums of money that make the inspectors also visited 291 other sites during their month- planning enforcement capacity of even a Kensington or long blitz, and of those 59 failed to meet approved Westminster council look puny. Westminster council is safety standards—a failure rate of 20% compared with consulting on its new basement policy, too, but it recognises the basement failure rate of 31%. that there is only so much that it can do within the law What matters here is not just the impact of the as it stands. individual project, but the cumulative impact of so The fact is that only a change in the law can help local many basement excavations on their neighbours and councils do what they want to do to protect their local communities. The fact is that residents are increasingly residents. They need—our urban neighbourhoods and feeling under siege. Constituents of mine come to me their residents need—statutory protection to underpin reporting that first one immediate neighbour and then policies that would, for example, limit excavations to another are embarking on months, sometimes years, of one storey and ensure that they are not built under excavation work, leaving them as islands in a sea of listed buildings, that they do not take up more than 50% filth, noise, damaged roads and pavements, and worse. of gardens, that traffic management plans are in place, One constituent wrote last week to tell me: that the amount of space that is taken up is reduced “I know that two hundred year old houses do need work done from the current 85%, that they require the compulsory on them but have a look at Hamilton Terrace”— installation of pumps to prevent flooding from sewers, in NW8— and much more. “It will be a building site and a development opportunity forever. Writing in his Evening Standard column, the Kensington A fine Georgian street has been turned into a greed magnet.” resident and writer, Simon Jenkins, lamented that Sometimes, works are carried out with sensitivity and “Giant diggers are advancing along the stucco terraces of Westminster consideration, often they are not, and it is not uncommon and Kensington like monsters inHGWells’ ‘War of the Worlds’. for the whole project to be managed through a company London’s guts are being ripped out. Its water table is subsiding with which interaction is impossible. Sometimes, party into a gigantic marbled sump. No one is doing a blind thing about it.” wall agreements can be negotiated and are adhered to, but often residents found themselves massively outgunned It is time to do something about it. by the companies and their lawyers, left in legal limbo Question put and agreed to. or hugely out of pocket. As my constituent, Sir Hugh Ordered, Cortazzi put it in a recent letter, That Ms Karen Buck, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, Mark “Developers in their pursuit of profits generally do not seem to care about the convenience and amenities of local residents and Field, Glenda Jackson, Frank Dobson, Barry Gardiner, neighbours.” Mr Gareth Thomas, Clive Efford and Mr Andy Slaughter It is not just about near neighbours. We all have a present the Bill. common interest in the preservation of our trees, many Ms Karen Buck accordingly presented the Bill. of which face being compromised by the thin soil of Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on gardens dug up and relaid over basement excavations. Friday 22 November and to be printed (Bill 127). 823 12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 824
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): One of my constituents Opposition Day who could not be here today has a terminal illness. I wrote to the Minister about his case but was told that [11TH ALLOTTED DAY] there could be no guarantee that he would not be affected by the bedroom tax. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Secretary of State has shown the same callous indifference Housing Benefit by not being here to try to defend this indefensible Mr Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected policy? the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. Rachel Reeves: It is the same callous disregard that has been shown to over 400,000 disabled people in all 1.29 pm our constituencies across the country. It is incredibly Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I beg to move, disappointing that the Secretary of State is not here to That this House regrets the pernicious effect on vulnerable and hear those stories today. in many cases disabled people of deductions being made from housing benefit paid to working age tenants in the social housing Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): In Brighton sector deemed to have an excess number of bedrooms in their and Hove there are now 300 council tenants in arrears homes; calls on the Government to end these deductions with who were not in arrears before the bedroom tax was immediate effect; furthermore calls for any cost of ending them to introduced, and 205 of them have disabilities. Does the be covered by reversing tax cuts which will benefit the wealthiest and promote avoidance, and addressing the tax loss from disguised hon. Lady agree that this is a despicable policy brought employment in construction; and further calls on the Government in by a Government who simply do not care and that it to use the funding set aside for discretionary housing payments to is having a disproportionate effect on people with deal with under-occupation by funding local authorities so that disabilities? they are better able to help people with the cost of moving to suitable accommodation. Rachel Reeves: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. This is an important debate, which is why it is so good That is the story we are hearing in all our constituencies to see so many Opposition Members on the Benches from people who are being hit by this policy and have behind me and so disappointing to see so few Government nowhere to turn. Is not the truth that the Secretary of Members on the Benches opposite. I am also sorry that State does not want to answer for the waste and chaos we will not be joined today by the Secretary of State for in his Department, his failure to deliver the great welfare Work and Pensions, who apparently has more urgent reform he promised, his failure to get more people into and important business at an intergovernmental conference work and his failure to get the benefits bill down? He in Paris. Some might welcome the fact that one of does not want to answer to this House, or to the British Parliament’s more dedicated Eurosceptics has suddenly people, for the distress and damage he is causing, with developed such a passion for discussing his problems desperate measures designed not to control costs or with our European partners—perhaps he has had a build a fairer system, but merely to distract from his second epiphany—but those affected by his policy will own incompetence. be disappointed that he has chosen not to be here today to answer for the distress and disruption his policy is Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The shadow Secretary causing up and down the country and to explain himself of State promised that she would be tougher on welfare to his victims, the more than 400,000 disabled people, as than this Government. Given that it was the previous well as their families and carers, as many as 375,000 Labour Government who introduced this policy in the children forced out of their homes or pushed deeper first place, it seems that she is going to be not only not into poverty and debt, and the foster carers and families tougher than this Government on welfare, but not of those serving in our armed forces who have also been tougher than the previous Labour Government. hit. Those people are at the sharp end of the Prime Minister’s cost of living crisis. They are already struggling Rachel Reeves: We have been very clear about how we to survive and to do their best for their loved ones, yet would pay for this policy, if indeed it costs as much as they have been treated with callous disregard by this the Government have said it will: we would crack down out-of-touch Government. on bogus self-employment in the construction industry, reverse the tax cut for hedge funds introduced in the Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Before the hon. Budget earlier this year and cancel the Chancellor’s Lady moves on from her remarks about the Secretary of failed “shares for rights” scheme. We have called this State, is she really suggesting that he should not be debate to bring the Government to their senses and to discussing youth unemployment with other Heads of ask Members on both sides of the House to consult State? Is that what she will say the next time we discuss their consciences and their constituents and call a halt youth unemployment? to the havoc this heartless policy has unleashed.
Rachel Reeves: Rather than going to a conference to Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): Is discuss youth unemployment, he should be doing something not the essence of that heartlessness the extent to which about it in this country. the policy affects carers? Carers UK has said that three I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House quarters of the affected carers it surveyed were cutting will have a chance to meet some of the people who have back on food and electricity as a result, and one in six come to Parliament today, many of whom have travelled face eviction. How do the Government justify that? across the country, to tell their story and hear the debate. But even as they got off their trains and coaches Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, in London this morning, the Secretary of State was because many of the spare bedrooms are used by carers already scuttling across the channel on the Eurostar. supporting some of the most vulnerable people in our 825 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 826 constituencies. We think that the time is now right for Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I join my each and every Member of this House to show where colleagues in commending my hon. Friend for securing they stand, because we know the facts. Stories of the the debate. She is listing the people affected. A constituent hardship and heartache that the Secretary of State is came to see me the other day, a father whose children causing are streaming in from every part of the country stay with him at weekends. It is the only chance he gets and every constituency. to see them. One of the conditions is that they have a separate bedroom. He will be stopped having his children Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I to stay as a result of these cruel measures. commend my hon. Friend for bringing this motion before the House today. In Tameside, New Charter Housing Rachel Reeves: It is an anti-family policy as well as an has seen the number of people in arrears rise by two anti-disabled people policy. thirds as a result of being clobbered by this pernicious The average hit per household is £14 a week, or bedroom tax, yet Tameside council’s discretionary housing £720 a year. It might not sound much to members of payments go nowhere near tackling the real problems the Cabinet, but it is more than the cost of a daily families are facing. This is not creating new capacity in school meal. It is almost the entire cost of feeding a housing; it is clobbering the poorest the hardest. growing child for a year, or equivalent to someone losing all their child benefit for a second child. Rachel Reeves: As in Tameside, two thirds of the budget for discretionary housing payment in my Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Does the constituency has already been used, despite the council hon. Lady honestly think that the founders of the adding £250,000 to the budget. welfare state intended it to be used by single people to live in two, three or four-bedroom houses while families I have heard heart-rending testimony about the tax. I are living in overcrowded flats? have heard about a man who received worrying letters about rent arrears while in hospital for a triple heart Rachel Reeves: When a Labour Government introduced bypass because he suddenly had to find another £18 a the welfare state it was a safety net for some of the most week to keep the specially adapted home he had lived in vulnerable people. The 400,000 disabled people who are for most of his life. I have heard about a woman with going to be hit by the bedroom tax are exactly the young children who had found another flat with a people who Beveridge’s and Clement Attlee’s welfare family and wanted to swap, but she was in a Catch-22 state were designed to protect—and shame on you for situation because she could not move until she had paid taking that safety net away. off the arrears she had built up as a result of the bedroom tax. I have heard about a family with a disabled Many of the people affected by the bedroom tax have son who have discovered that the room that carers stay nowhere else to go and no choice but to take the in is now designated as a spare bedroom with a charge financial hit, making impossible choices between feeding of £14 a week. their children, paying the gas and electricity bills, and paying the rent. In so many cases, local authorities and housing associations are put in impossible situations, trying to Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): The minimise the impact of this badly designed policy on hon. Lady talks about affected families. What does she local people. Decent people in tough situations who are say to the almost 400,000 families who are living in doing their best and trying to survive are being trapped overcrowded situations when they look over their shoulders by an absurd policy that makes no sense. They are at the almost 1 million spare bedrooms in Britain? terrified of losing their homes or sinking deeper into poverty and unmanageable debt. Rachel Reeves: I say that instead of presiding over the lowest rate of house building since the 1920s, this Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My hon. Friend Government should get on and build some houses. is demonstrating through individual cases just how No wonder the Trussell Trust—[Interruption.] unfair this appalling policy is, but does she agree that it Government Members do not want to hear about food is also unworkable? Only last month in the borough of banks, and nor does the Prime Minister, but they will Sefton there were 4,963 people registered for a one-bedroom hear about food banks. The Trussell Trust cites the property, but just 10 such properties were available. bedroom tax as the key driver behind a threefold increase Does that not demonstrate just how wrong the policy is? in the use of food banks since April this year. No wonder more people are turning to payday lenders and Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As to food banks. No wonder the Samaritans are training well as being cruel, the policy is unworkable. I know up staff to help people left desperate and distraught by that hon. Friends have heard many such stories, as the Secretary of State’s bedroom tax. Those who do not many have already testified today, about people in their move may end up in less suitable housing—homes constituencies. I know that we will hear more this without adaptations for people with disabilities, or where afternoon. We know that around 660,000 households children have to change school or live further away from across the country have been hit by this punitive tax. All family or support networks. the people affected are in this country, rather than in Paris, where the Secretary of State is today. Many of Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Is my hon. them have conditions that mean they need to sleep Friend aware that people who have dialysis at home, separately or accommodate carers or special equipment. who have moved into homes with a spare bedroom A large number are families with children and they are specifically so that having the dialysis equipment in a already at or below the poverty line. sterile environment will allow them not to use hospitals, 827 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 828
[Mrs Madeleine Moon] throughout south Wales have rising levels of bad debts on their books that are jeopardising their financial are being expected to pay bedroom tax for a room that security? is actually a hospital at home? This is an appalling waste of public money, because hospital care costs Rachel Reeves: I could not agree more. It is putting more. housing associations and local authorities in impossible situations where they potentially have to condemn housing Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. that is perfectly fit for people to live in because people Hospital care costs more, but so does making adaptations cannot afford the rent. to a new property, which is what will have to happen if people are moved. Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Can we nail People up and down the country are asking why. Why the issue of dialysis, because these situations do happen? are we putting vulnerable families through this? Why In my constituency, David Holdsworth is in renal failure are we hitting some of the hardest-pressed households and attached to tubes. He cannot occupy the same in our country? Why are we hitting disabled people like bedroom as his wife, and the other bedroom is occupied this? Why did the Prime Minister introduce this policy by their adult disabled daughter. They do not qualify on exactly the same day as cutting taxes for millionaires? for DHP—they have been denied it. This is more evidence It shows how out of touch this Prime Minister and his of how pernicious this tax is and how out of touch this Government are. Government are with the most vulnerable in our society. [Interruption.] The Government would like us to believe that the bedroom tax is cutting the benefits bill and dealing with Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend. It is a shame under-occupancy in social housing, but it simply does that of instead of just shouting that he is wrong, no not add up. Conservative or Liberal Democrat MPs came to visit today’s lobby of Parliament by people who are affected Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): The shadow by these policies. It is also a shame that the Secretary of Secretary of State is providing a litany of cases, half of State is in Paris rather than listening to these stories and which are exempt under the legislation while many hearing about the impact of his policy. others will be beneficiaries of the discretionary housing payment, which this Government have trebled to John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Obviously £190 million per year. Did not her party in government it was the Labour party in government that introduced introduce the local housing allowance to cover tenants the bedroom tax—in the private sector. On 19 January in the private sector? Why is it one rule for them and 2004, Labour Ministers said: one rule for others? “We hope to implement a flat rate housing benefit system in the social sector, similar to that anticipated in the private rented Rachel Reeves: First, as the hon. Lady knows, the sector”.—[Official Report, 19 January 2004; Vol. 416, c. 1075W.] Government’s policy is retrospective whereas in the The question for the shadow Secretary of State is, “When private sector it is not. Also, the discretionary housing did you change your policy?” payments are not nearly enough to cover this. In my constituency in Leeds—[Interruption.] The hon. Lady Rachel Reeves: It will be interesting to see which way has asked the question; perhaps she will listen to the hon. Gentleman votes this evening given that his —[Interruption.] own party conference has said that this is an unfair tax. Will he vote with the Conservatives or with his own Mr Speaker: Order. There is far too much noise—a party? Let me be very clear: if I am Secretary of State in complete cacophony of noise—on both sides of the 2015, the first thing I will do is reverse this unfair and Chamber, such that the Chair cannot even hear what is pernicious tax. It is a shame that his party and his being said. I recognise the strength of feeling on both Minister will not do likewise. sides, but I appeal to Members, as I have said many There is a contradiction at the heart of this policy times before, to have some regard for the way in which that shows how disingenuous the Government’s our proceedings are viewed by people outside this place, justifications are for it. On the one hand, they say that it who would hope for some seemly conduct. is necessary to deal with under-occupation and overcrowding, yet on the other that the benefit savings Rachel Reeves: Thank you, Mr Speaker. they are claiming assume that nobody moves. So which is it to be, because it cannot be both? Is this a policy to In Leeds, where I am a Member of Parliament, two cut costs by getting social housing tenants to pay more, thirds of the budget has been used with less than half or is it a policy to move people out of their housing to the year gone, despite the fact that the council has avoid paying the tax, in which case it does not raise any topped up the discretionary housing payment pot to money? It just does not add up. help as many people as possible, so that money is not nearly sufficient to help all those who are hit, particularly Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Government disabled people. Members have been calling out that this is a legitimate policy response to help with overcrowding, but the Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Does my hon. Government’s own impact assessment says that Friend agree that this is not just a callous policy but a “the highest rates of overcrowding are also those with the lowest downright stupid one, because in my constituency we percentage of under occupiers…this mechanism for encouraging now have two and three-bedroom properties lying empty the more efficient use of social housing may make less of an and unable to be modified, while housing associations impact in those regions most affected.” 829 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 830
So the Government’s own impact assessment states that social sector to a one-bedroom home in the private this policy is a nonsensical response to dealing with rented sector would end up claiming an average £1,500 overcrowding. more in housing benefit. How can that make sense? How do the sums stack up? They do not. Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that To cap it all, we have learned of the absurdity—the intervention. The justifications for this do not stack up. complete and utter travesty—of housing associations People are not moving but they are not paying either. looking to demolish homes that the Government now More and more people are falling into arrears. As many refuse to house people in, while the families being as 50% of them, hit by the tax, are now behind with forced out by this policy are left to the private sector, their rent. The loss to local authorities and housing where rents are higher and conditions are poorer. associations is already running into tens of millions of pounds, and the cost of evicting all those who have not Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): A young man paid their rent and then dealing with the resulting who lives in Earls Court has total renal failure. His homelessness could cost many times more. While the spare bedroom is a dialysis unit, but he has been told Government preside over the lowest level of new home that he now has to pay the bedroom tax. He is very building since the 1920s, their answer is to make the happy with the efforts of his Member of Parliament—who housing crisis even worse by making it harder for housing is not of my political persuasion—to attempt to free providers to meet local housing need by blowing another him from the chains of the bedroom tax, but my brother hole in their budget and destabilising their fragile finances faces losing his home of 20 years for being a kidney further. patient. Does my hon. Friend not agree that this is beyond disgraceful? Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. Friend will be aware of the research done by Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that moving the centre for housing policy at York university on the intervention. So many of us can give examples from our lack of any financial benefits accrued from this policy. constituency surgeries. If Government Members were Does she agree that it is almost unheard of for such a honest, they would say that they hear the same sorts of policy to inflict so much misery on some of the most stories at their surgeries. They know that these people vulnerable in our society for so little financial benefit to are not exempt. the rest of the country? This is not a housing policy or a way to get the benefits bill down. It is an attempt to victimise some of the most Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that vulnerable families and most vulnerable people in our intervention. Indeed, analysis by York university’s centre country, and it is making the housing crisis worse. for housing policy suggests that this will cost £160 million, Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): My because the Department for Work Pensions has hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. May I make underestimated the impact on the housing benefit bill a small plea? Traditional families and communities of people moving to the private rented sector. where people lived by their grandchildren, looked after According to the National Housing Federation, 100,000 one another and had mutual concern are being broken disabled people—some of whom we have already heard up throughout this country. about—live in properties specially adapted for their disability, but the average grant issued by local authorities Rachel Reeves: I can think of another example from for adaptations to homes stands at £6,000. The total my constituency, where a gentleman has lived in his cost of doing the adaptations all over again could run house for 30 years. He brought up his family there, but into tens of millions of pounds. the estate he lives on is made up of three-bedroom properties and if he is forced to move he will be moving Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): They’re away from the people with whom he went to primary exempt. school and secondary school, and from his children and grandchildren. How can that be fair and right, and how Rachel Reeves: Would the hon. Lady like to stand up will it help foster the big society that we used to hear so and say they are exempt, because that is not Government much about? policy? Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I pay tribute Heather Wheeler: What I would really like the hon. to the contribution my hon. Friend is making. Before Lady to explain is how, out of the 77,000-odd properties she moves on from talking about personal cases, I think in Leeds, only 36 have been swapped. What this is about we should pay tribute to all those people who came and is making sure that people who are in overcrowded told us their personal stories. That is a hard thing for accommodation can live somewhere decent. Would the some people to do. They are the people who have really hon. Lady like to address that? fought this campaign and we support them in this House today. Does my hon. Friend agree that we must pay tribute to the bravery and courage of people such as Rachel Reeves: The hon. Lady said from a sedentary my constituent, Ms Davis from Bebington, who came position that disabled people are exempt, but she would forward and told their story? not say it when she was on her feet because she knows it is not true. Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that Many of those who move will end up in the private contribution. Surgeries can be difficult when we discuss rented sector, meaning that the housing benefit bill may these issues with constituents and they break down in be much higher. The National Housing Federation says tears. It is people who have done the right thing, gone that families removed from a two-bedroom home in the out to work and tried to support their families, but who 831 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 832
[Rachel Reeves] Budget and cancelling the Chancellor’s failed shares for rights scheme, which according to the Office for Budget have fallen on difficult times, done nothing wrong and Responsibility has opened up a tax loophole of up to whose children have left home or gone to university £1 billion. who will be saddled with this tax. I pay tribute to them The Labour party is committed to reversing the bedroom for sharing their stories and to those who came to London tax, if elected in 2015, but we know that for many this morning to tell us their heart-breaking stories. families that is too long to wait, so I hope that Members on both sides of the House will vote with us tonight. If Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) the Government stick their heads in the sand, let no one (Lab): Is my hon. Friend aware that, in Islington borough, be in any doubt that this will be the beginning, not the 3,100 families will be affected by the bedroom tax? The end, of our campaign to cancel this unjust and unworkable local authority is making a stupendous effort to build as tax. If this Government do not repeal it, the next much social housing as possible—the joke is that if Labour Government will. someone moves their car, they will return to find that a flat has been built in its place—but even it has been able Several hon. Members rose— to let only 1,600 flats in the last year and it cannot keep up with the demand of people who need to move Mr Speaker: Order. In a moment I shall call the because of the bedroom tax, let alone because of the Minister to move amendment (a) in the name of the general housing crisis. Government. Before I do so, I remind the House that, in recognition of the enormous number of Members seeking Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that to catch the eye of the Chair in this debate, I have intervention. imposed a five-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches. We say that it is time to stop this cruel and mad Let us first hear the Minister move amendment (a). policy. It is time for Members on both sides of the House to take a stand. It is time to stand with the 1.59 pm desperate families who are being forced out of their The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions homes or forced into debt, and time to stand with (Steve Webb): I beg to move an amendment, to leave out anyone who knows anything about housing or homelessness, from “House” to the end of the Question and add: the plight of disabled people or the lives of children in “notes the substantial structural deficit which was inherited from poverty, who are all warning that this policy is fast the previous Government and the need to get the nation’s finances becoming a fiasco. Indeed, it is time to stand with the back into shape; further notes the need to bring expenditure on father of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and chair housing benefit under control; further notes that the proposed of the Lochaber housing association, Mr Di Alexander, reversal of this policy would cost the Exchequer around half a who says that the policy is billion pounds a year; regrets any exaggeration and misrepresentation of the effects of the policy; recognises the inequality of allowing “particularly unfair in that it penalises both our tenants and social tenants to receive benefit for a spare bedroom whilst ourselves for not being able to magic up a supply of smaller denying this opportunity to private tenants; supports the Government’s properties.” action to deal with this unfairness whilst protecting vulnerable It is a shame that the Chief Secretary listens to the groups such as pensioners and providing substantial funding Prime Minister instead of to his father. through Discretionary Housing Payments to local authorities to It is also a shame that the pensions Minister does not support other tenants who would otherwise be adversely affected; further notes the Government’s continuing commitment to monitor listen to his own party, which only last month, at the the effects of the policy and the use of Discretionary Housing Liberal Democrat party conference, voted overwhelmingly Payments; and welcomes the potential beneficial impact of this against the bedroom tax, saying that it is policy on those living in overcrowded accommodation and the “discriminating against the most vulnerable in society”, 2.1 million families on waiting lists.’” and noting that the Government have shown I begin by reasserting that the Secretary of State for “a lack of appreciation of the housing requirements of children Work and Pensions is meeting European leaders at a and adults with disabilities and care needs”. long-arranged summit to tackle the vital issue of youth unemployment. The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel I am afraid that that is what we get with the Liberal Reeves) might not think that a priority use of his time, Democrats: they say one thing at their conference and butwedo. when they are out on the doorsteps, but they vote another way here when it really counts. When they The hon. Lady’s motion did not mention people could make a difference, they turn the other way. While living in overcrowded accommodation. Indeed, the voice the Secretary of State scuttles off to Paris, he gets his of those in overcrowded accommodation has not been Liberal Democrat pensions Minister to defend a policy heard from the Labour Benches, and it is the coalition that is not even part of his brief and that is in contradiction Government who are speaking for those people. This with his own party’s policy. I say shame on him and policy will help to address those long-standing needs. shame on his party. Several hon. Members rose— We know that tough decisions are needed to build a social security system that is fair for all and to bring the Steve Webb: I will give way in a moment, but I want benefits bill down, but this policy does neither. It may to make a little progress. Let me take the first line of the well cost more than it saves, but to be absolutely certain Labour motion and change one word so that it reads, that its reversal will require no extra borrowing we have “this House regrets the pernicious effect on vulnerable and in identified the funds that could more than cover the many cases disabled people of deductions being made from costs. They will be raised by cracking down on bogus housing benefit paid to working age tenants in the private rented self-employment in the construction sector, reversing housing sector deemed to have an excess number of bedrooms in the tax cut for hedge funds announced in this year’s their homes”. 833 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 834
The Opposition position seems to be that the policy is Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): What research did the pernicious and evil when it affects social tenants, yet not Government do into the flexibility of the housing market, merely acceptable but policy when it affects private in both the private and public sectors, before introducing tenants. There are two coherent positions: one is the this policy? Was it a case of introducing the policy now, Government position that asks anyone on benefits to researching it next year, and reporting on it in 2015? contribute towards the cost of an extra bedroom, and the other is to state that anyone on benefits will receive Steve Webb: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for housing benefit, regardless of the size of house they raising the flexibility of the housing market because to need; that would cost a lot of money but it would be hear Labour Members one would imagine the market coherent. The Labour party’s position is incoherent. It was static. When they talk about the availability of states that social tenants should not have to pay towards one-bedroom properties—someone said a moment ago an extra bedroom, but that private tenants should. We that there were 10 available or something—those are have heard cases of people who need extra bedrooms, empty one-bedroom properties. If one looks, for example, for example for dialysis machines. Social tenants need at social housing swap websites, significant numbers of an extra room for that machine, but private tenants social tenants are looking to free-up small properties should have to pay for it. Surely some mistake. and exchange with those looking for family-sized accommodation. There is plenty of evidence of fluidity. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): One of the Tens of thousands of social tenants move house every strangest things in this argument about the private year; this is not a static market. rented sector is that during the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill I never once heard the Government mention Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The Minister said that it—it is one of those later justifications. The problem is we are ignoring the potential benefits of his policy on that people in the private rented sector were not suddenly overcrowded accommodation. Will he tell the House told one day, “Your house is too big; you have to start why his amendment includes the words “potential beneficial paying for the extra rooms regardless of whether you impact” and say how many people have been helped to can move.” That is a huge difference and the two things date? are not comparable. If we want to talk about equalising, perhaps we should equalise rents. Steve Webb: I am pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman refer to overcrowding, because strangely that was an Steve Webb: I am interested that the hon. Lady omission from the Labour motion. It is almost as if the mentions rents, because if we compare private and voice of the overcrowded has not been heard. To give social tenants, she is saying that social tenants, who him a sense of scale, based on the English house condition already benefit from subsidised rent, should not have to survey we estimate that more than a quarter of a pay for an extra bedroom, whereas private tenants million households in social accommodation are paying a market rent should pay for it. That does not overcrowded. Census data, which offer a different definition, seem fair to me. suggest there are getting on for 400,000 overcrowded households. The research the Government are undertaking as the policy is rolled out will monitor the extent to Several hon. Members rose— which people are trading down and moving from overcrowded accommodation, and the extent to which Steve Webb: I will give way in a moment. In an they take jobs, take in lodgers or use discretionary intervention on the hon. Member for Leeds West, my housing payments. People can respond to the policy in a hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John whole raft of ways, but the idea that we can have Hemming) pointed out something that has not hitherto hundreds of thousands of people in overcrowded been flagged up—Labour’s intention to extend the principle accommodation while there are free spare bedrooms of the local housing allowance to social tenants. Let me does not seem fair. quote Hansard from January 2004 when the late Malcolm Wicks stated: Mr Ellwood: There is a sense of déjà vu in this debate “We hope to implement a flat rate housing benefit system in because we discussed this issue in 2008 with reference to the social sector, similar to that anticipated in the private rented the private sector. Going back to 2008, one major sector…We aim to extend our reforms to the social rented sector problem is the lack of housing stock and new builds. as soon as rent restructuring and increased choice have created an improved market.”—[Official Report, 19 January 2004; Vol. 416, Just 30% of new houses are single dwellings, although c. 1075W.] the demand for that is 60%. Does the Minister agree that that imbalance needs to be addressed? Interestingly, the Labour party planned to do that, yet when this Government do it, suddenly it is somebody else’s problem. Steve Webb: My hon. Friend is right. Labour Members say there is a mismatch between housing stock and housing need, but who was doing the house building for John Hemming: From what the Minister has said, the 13 years? Why do we have that mismatch? On the Labour party was quite happy to have a bedroom tax, volume of social housing construction, I was shocked not just in the private sector but also in the social rented when I saw that in many years of the previous Labour sector as soon as rents had gone up. Government, fewer than 25,000 new units of social housing were built per year. Even in these difficult Steve Webb: I congratulate my hon. Friend on drawing economic circumstances, the coalition Government are the House’s attention to the Labour party’s plans. Not already building more social housing every year than in only did the Labour party invent the principle of paying most years of the Labour Government, and that will for an extra bedroom, it intended to extend it. only increase. 835 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 836
Mrs Main: My hon. Friend is making an excellent give my support to his policy. I have a specific question point. Perhaps he would like to extend it by inviting the on how the policy will develop. The Select Committee Labour shadow Minister to apologise for the failure to on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs recommended build social housing—a failure that Labour’s own some time ago that communities of fewer than 3,000 spokesperson identified as woeful, bleak even. people could be exempted from the impact of the policy. I represent the largest geographic constituency in Britain, Steve Webb: My hon. Friend is right. The level of new and that question is of great interest to the Highland housing association properties built was well below council welfare committee. Will he please look at it? 25,000 in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006. The Government are already building well over 25,000 Steve Webb: My right hon. Friend and his hon. social houses a year, and have further plans for expansion. Friends have been effective in lobbying for the needs of remote rural communities. That is why we specifically Emily Thornberry: The hon. Gentleman began his made available this year an additional £5 million, focused contribution by talking about overcrowding, which is exclusively on remote rural communities, which face something Labour feels very strongly about, certainly in difficulty because of the distance people might have to my borough. Part of the problem, however, is empty travel to alternative accommodation. I hope that that nesters—elderly people whose families have grown up. Government decision this year has helped to address If the principle behind the bedroom tax is to free up those concerns. homes and move people to smaller units, why does it not apply to pensioners? Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Steve Webb: I am not sure whether the hon. Lady is (SNP): What solution does the Minister suggest for a encouraging us to apply the policy to pensioners. Hebridean island where there are 105 houses, 50% of which are single occupancy, but only 20% of which have Emily Thornberry: The hon. Gentleman will be surprised one bedroom? If people live on such islands, what is the to hear that I am doing my job and probing the Government solution? to find out the purpose of this policy. He began with the justification of dealing with overcrowding—something Steve Webb: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman I feel very strongly about after what I have seen in my was listening a moment ago when I referred to the surgeries—but my borough authority has always had a specific additional funding we have allocated to remote policy of speaking to people as they retire, and encouraging rural areas to respond to that problem. them to move onwards, not doing this. Philip Davies: Does the Minister agree that the spare Steve Webb: At least an Opposition Member is talking room subsidy is one reason why we do not have the right about overcrowding, which is a start—we might be mix of housing? Social housing providers could build making progress. The hon. Lady is right that we need to houses as big as they wanted, knowing that the Government do more to assist and support older tenants to move would cover the full bill irrespectively. In that respect, into more suitable accommodation. One thing we have does he deplore the social housing provider in my area, discovered in the course of doing that work is how little of which a Labour MP is a director? It complains on many social landlords knew about their tenants. We the one hand that it has too many three-bedroom houses— were shocked to discover that. Part of the process is social landlords engaging with their tenants and helping them to move to the right sort of accommodation. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Just to help hon. Members, we need shorter interventions. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): My hon. Friend Many hon. Members wish to speak and the matter is mentioned the mutual exchange service, otherwise known important to all our constituencies, so we need short as HomeSwapper. Is he aware that 56,000 one-bedroom interventions. properties, 147,000 two-bedroom properties and 104,000 three-bedroom properties are available? Steve Webb: I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker, but my hon. Friend raises an important point on the Steve Webb: We often hear from Opposition Members responsibility of social landlords to build housing stock the refrain, “There aren’t the properties,” but my hon. to meet the needs of local people. For too long under Friend has exploded that myth. Significant numbers of the previous Government, that did not happen. people want to move from one-bedroom properties to My hon. Friend made the point that some social two-bedroom properties, and from two-bedroom properties landlords have worked the system. One or two hon. to three-bedroom properties. That will be facilitated by Members have shouted, “No, that cannot be the case,” our measure. but I want to refer to the oral evidence given by Fife council to the Scottish Affairs Committee. Fife council Several hon. Members rose— saw the arrangements as a nice little earner. Apropos of two-bedroom properties occupied by a single person, Steve Webb: I will give way to my right hon. Friend Fife council said: the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy). “we have under-occupied them to maintain an income from them”. Mr Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD): I am grateful to the Minister for giving way—it is It also stated that the characteristically generous of him, particularly because “progress that we had made in maintaining our income by allocating he knows my past record and that I have been unable to properties with perhaps a spare bedroom is under risk now.” 837 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 838
I do not apologise for that. The purpose of housing Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) says that it is not benefit is not to subsidise social landlords who are using enough. Last year, we were told, if I remember rightly, the system; it is to help people who are in need. that the discretionary housing payments we had made available for other housing benefits changes were “not Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): The extra enough,” but, at the end of the year, local authorities money that the Government have given to sparsely repaid to the Government £10 million of unspent populated towns for discretionary housing payments discretionary housing payments. has been welcome. It has helped Argyll and Bute and other sparsely populated councils. Can my hon. Friend Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): I give me an assurance that it will continue in future years? can absolutely guarantee that the Minister will not be getting any of his money back this year from any of the Steve Webb: My hon. Friend has been a doughty local authorities, and certainly not from Manchester. campaigner for his rural constituency. I cannot commit My constituency has among the highest number of the Government to a further £5 million—that is the people affected by the bedroom tax in the country. The amount allocated this year for remote rural areas—but money is fast running out, if it has not already run out, I am aware that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury tends because there are far more people with adapted homes to be quite sensitive to the needs of remote Scottish than there is money to go around. I can guarantee that constituencies. he will not be getting any money back from Manchester city council this year. Let me address the amendment, because the shadow Secretary of State did not mention the state of the Steve Webb: We have estimated £25 million to cover nation’s finances—she used to be an economist, so I am adapted properties. The hon. Lady might have better surprised she did not mention the subject. The context statistics than the Government on adapted properties, of the debate is a deficit in 2009-10 in excess of £150 billion but I suspect that the default position of Labour Members a year. The previous Government were spending £4 for is to say, “It’s not enough; it should be more.” every £3 they raised in taxes—that was not investment for the long term, but borrowing money to pay today’s Let me address the issue directly to respond to the bills. There is nothing progressive or fair about asking hon. Lady’s point. In 2012-13, we made available £60 million our children to pay the costs of current spending to of discretionary housing payments. This year, we have benefit ourselves. That is why the context needed to be trebled that amount to £180 million. That money is what addressed. we might call hard cash for hard cases—the cases to which hon. Members have referred. I say this sincerely Several hon. Members rose— to hon. Members: those who raise individual cases should be holding their local authorities to account. Steve Webb: I am going to make progress. The Government have given local authorities the money to help people in need. In fact, we have gone further. The deficit was £150 billion. How can we address Within year, we have allocated an extra £20 million for that? The biggest area of public spending is the Department local authorities to bid for. If they have exhausted, or if for Work and Pensions. More than half of that budget they anticipate exhausting, their discretionary housing goes on pensioners and pensioner-related benefits, which payments budgets, they can come to the Government we had pledged to protect. That meant that a very for a top-up. So far, barely a dozen local authorities substantial budget—the working-age welfare budget—had have asked for additional funding. to be addressed. The biggest income-related benefit is housing benefit. The biggest group of housing benefit The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) recipients comprises social tenants. We are told that mentioned the strain being putting on her local authority’s Labour party would have sought to address the budget discretionary housing payment. Leaving aside the fact deficit, but if we are looking to do so, housing benefit that Leeds has an extraordinarily low rate of home for social tenants must be looked at. If we have to make swaps—in other words, is the local authority doing the savings in that, where do we do it? We look at spare right thing by its tenants?—it has not asked the Government rooms in the social housing sector. for a share of the £20 million. If Leeds is so cash-strapped for DHPs, why has it not asked us for the money it says However, some people legitimately have a need for an it needs, rather than turning away people it thinks are additional room or should not be asked to move. The vulnerable? issue of adapted accommodation was raised. We could have dealt with adapted accommodation in two ways. Robert Flello: The Minister talks about cash-strapped First, we could have written in a long, complicated authorities. Stoke-on-Trent has been the third hardest statutory instrument what is and is not adapted hit by cuts every year and simply cannot mop that up. accommodation. Clearly, just a hand rail would not He made a point about swaps. In Stoke-on-Trent, constitute adapted accommodation and a whole extension approximately 11,000 people are on the waiting list. probably would, but what about the properties in the Where are the one-bedroom flats? Where are the two- middle? Given that there are often no records of how bedroom places? They do not exist in Stoke-on-Trent. much has been spent on adaptation, trying to write that Will he tell me where they are? into the law of the land would not have been an effective way to help those in need. Steve Webb: The hon. Gentleman misses the point. We therefore decided that we would estimate the cost He mistakes the issue of empty properties for properties of protecting those with substantially adapted properties— that are currently accommodated. The social housing our estimate was £25 million—and allocated the money swap website indicates tens, if not hundreds, of thousands to local authorities to assist those in need. [Interruption.] of people in smaller properties who want to trade up, From a sedentary position, the hon. Member for while people in larger properties want to trade down. 839 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 840
[Steve Webb] of cash, despite sending back £500,000 last year, we will of course consider an application to our top-up fund, In response to the hon. Member for Manchester which we have not so far received. Central, I am rather startled by this figure, but it appears We have heard nothing from the—[Interruption.] that last year Manchester local authority sent back to the Government £595,000 of unspent DHPs. Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. In fairness, a lot of people want to listen to this. All of our constituencies are Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) affected and it is better if we all listen. The Minister has (LD): I am grateful to my hon. Friend and his colleagues given way a lot. Hon. Members should indicate that for the extra allocation of money. My local authority they want the Minister to give way, but please accept it has bid for an extra £600,000, which I hope it will if he does not want to receive. I supported the motion at the Liberal Democrat conference arguing for changes in this policy. [Interruption.] Steve Webb: I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am I will take no lessons from Labour Members. Will my aware that a large number of hon. Members want to hon. Friend look at exempting those who have applied participate in the debate, so I will sum up the Government’s and are eligible for a smaller property, and are waiting position. to be allocated? The Opposition do not talk about the £150 billion deficit, because they are rightly embarrassed and are Steve Webb: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for ashamed of the state in which they left our finances. referring to our policy motion, which is a darn sight They would have had to deal with the same deficit that better than the one we have been asked to consider by we had to deal with, but we have no idea how they the Opposition. The Government are addressing many would have done so. The idea that they could reverse of the elements in our conference motion. For example, this change by finding £500 million from obscure corners the motion calls for is implausible. They could not raise anything like the “an immediate evaluation of the impact of the policy” sort of amounts they are talking about. We recognise that it is not appropriate to expect every person to move which we are undertaking, and to a smaller property, which is why we have trebled the “A review of the amount allocated to local authorities for the budget for discretionary housing payments. I say to Discretionary Housing Payment Fund”. Opposition Members and all my hon. Friends that if someone comes to see them with a legitimate reason not Lucy Powell: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. to trade down—they do not have an option to work, to The Minister incorrectly gave figures for last year—the take in a lodger, or to do the other things people do bedroom tax was introduced only in April. I was talking —the local authority should be asked to explain whether about money that will come back this year. I can it has spent its cash and, if it has spent it, whether it has guarantee that the Minister will not be getting any asked the Government for more cash. We can then have money back from Manchester this year—the year of a conversation. Until that point, we need fairness between— the bedroom tax. Several hon. Members rose— Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We do not need any help from those on the back row. That Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I said that hon. Members was not a point of order, but the hon. Lady has put her should indicate if they want to intervene, but do not point on the record. continue to stay on your feet, Mr Burden. It is for me to judge and for the Minister to give way. Please do not Steve Webb: I will come back to that in a moment. take advantage of the situation. That is not good for this Chamber. I can assure my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) that Steve Webb: We need action on overcrowding, we we are addressing many of the points raised in the need fairness between social and private tenants and we conference motion, not least because the motion need action on the deficit. Those are the things we need. congratulates the role of our colleagues in securing The Labour party has no answer to those problems. The additional discretionary housing payments—something coalition has addressed them. I commend the amendment they can all be proud of. to the House. The hon. Member for Manchester Central says that I referred to last year’s figures. I did, because we have not 2.27 pm got to the end of this year yet. Last year, we stood here Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Let me and other Opposition Members said about last year’s begin by putting on record that I think that the bedroom budget exactly what she has just said. We allocated tax should be abolished. This is a pernicious and vindictive DHPs for other changes to housing benefits. They said measure that blames people and is causing a huge there would not be enough money, but at the end of the amount of distress. It blames, then punishes, people year substantial amounts were repaid. who very often have had little control or choice over the house in which they live. It punishes people whose crime Lucy Powell rose— is not to earn enough money to afford their rent. It punishes people who have lived in their council house Steve Webb: I have no idea what that gesture means, for most of their lives but have temporarily lost their but last year we allocated just under £1 million to job and are now deemed as having an extra bedroom. Manchester, of which more than £500,000 was repaid. It punishes the victims for a failure of housing supply, This year we have allocated nearly £2 million to Manchester and punishes those who would like to move to a smaller to address those concerns. If it finds that it is still short property but cannot because none is available. 841 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 842
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The hon. Lady says On the first exemption, it is incredibly difficult and that the bedroom tax should be abolished. Does she expensive for someone who needs adaptations to their agree that it should be abolished for private sector house to move. Council tax regulations recognise that tenants, too? people who need extra room because of a disability pay council tax on a lower band, so it is ridiculous that this Dame Anne Begg: There is a fundamental space requirement is not recognised in housing benefit misunderstanding about the nature of social housing. regulations. I know from personal experience how difficult When my parents got their first council house, they it is to find suitable housing and how long adaptations thought that that was their home for life. That is not the take to make, and this is an exemption that the Government same for people who rent in the private sector as a could easily include. stepping stone to buying a house. My parents never had On the second exemption, whoever in government that expectation, and anyone who has lived in a council thought it acceptable to expect a couple, one of whom is house would understand that. disabled, to share a bedroom clearly has no idea of the The bedroom tax hits the most vulnerable, many of size of the average council house bedroom. It is certainly whom do not qualify, despite everything that has been not big enough for a hospital bed, possibly some lifting said, for discretionary housing payments. In Aberdeen, equipment and a second bed for the other person, and I have been hearing the stories of people who have such an arrangement would not give a good night’s sleep fallen on hard times and become victims of drug or to someone who might also have an important caring alcohol abuse. They are now trying to get their lives role. Discretionary housing payment is not a solution. back together but cannot, because they are being hit by It is meant to be transitional—to get people from where the bedroom tax. For example, a 37-year-old merchant they are now to where the Government want them to be seaman sustained injuries in a car accident, and he —whereas the situations that I am describing are permanent. therefore needed a ground-floor flat. He was allocated a I could talk about disabled children, but those two two-bedroom flat because that was all there was, and he situations should certainly be exempted, and those people has now been hit by the bedroom tax. A 47-year-old should not have to apply year on year either. No matter disabled man, who, after his parents died, continued to how much money is made available, it is wrong that they live in the two-bedroom flat that he had been born in, must apply for a discretionary payment, and the word has been hit by the bedroom tax. “discretionary” is the key, because it means that they will not necessarily get the money. If Ministers do not Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The hon. accept the need to get rid of this measure, at least they Lady is making a powerful case. Does she share my could extend the exemptions; these modest measures concern about the scale of debt being created by the would not cost more either, if what the Government say Government’s brutal policy? Freedom of information is right, because these people are already getting figures show that one in three council house tenants are discretionary housing payments. The exemptions would being pushed into rent arrears. Given that not enough alleviate a great deal of anxiety and make this appalling smaller properties exist, how is that possibly fair or measure a bit more bearable for some of our constituents. progressive? But I stand by my original comment: it is time that this measure was abolished. Dame Anne Begg: And in many of my examples, 2.34 pm people’s situations have been made worse, because they now have housing debts, so they cannot be re-housed Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a and have to return to the very hostels that they thought pleasure to speak in this debate, opposing the main they were escaping from. motion but supporting the amendment in the name of my right hon. Friends. It is also a pleasure to follow the Also hit by the bedroom tax is a 52-year-old woman hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), who suffers from depression and chronic anxiety and the Chairman of the Work and Pensions Committee. who depends on her neighbour and so cannot contemplate We might disagree on elements of the policy, but I a move. I know of many more examples. Some people appreciate that she holds her opinions very strongly. would move but cannot, because suitable properties are not available, while others cannot move because they Government Members are keen to create a fair housing would lose the support that they depend on to lead market. It is astonishing to hear Opposition Members independent lives. talk of the criteria, given that they voted for them with the introduction of the local housing allowance. The Even if the Government do not accept Labour’s hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) proposal to scrap the tax—I always live in hope—they talked about divorced families, but that situation happened must extend the exemptions. I shall propose just two before and still happens now. Why should those in the very modest ones that they should accept, if only because, private sector or people who own their own homes be given how they have been shouting this afternoon, their treated differently? I recognise the point about the Back Benchers obviously think these things are exempted retrospective nature of the policy, but the Government already. The first exemption should apply to homes are trying to fix problems left unfixed by the last specifically adapted for disabled families, about which I Government, and although some of these necessary really do not accept the Minister’s argument: this is a changes might seem difficult, overall fairness is what man who thinks that he will change the whole pensions truly matters. system in Great Britain, yet he is not clever enough to come up with a definition of an adapted home. I don’t Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): What would the think so! The second exemption is for situations where hon. Lady say to Mr and Mrs Goodwin of Caerphilly it is unreasonable to expect a couple to share a bed or borough, both of whom are registered blind, yet have to room because one or both have a disability. pay the bedroom tax? Where is the fairness there? 843 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 844
Dr Coffey: I do not know the details of the hon. The hon. Member for Aberdeen South and the Minister Gentleman’s case, but I am sure that he is taking it up mentioned adaptations for disabled people. More than with his local council. Rather than responding to individual a quarter of my constituents are over 65, so hon. cases, however, I would prefer to stick to the principle of Members will not be surprised to learn that my constituency why we believe this to be fair and right. I will come to has a fair number of adapted houses and flats. It is my reasons in the moment. appropriate that local councils should make an assessment On social housing, as the Minister said, it would be and decide whether it is better for someone to stay in wrong to expect thousands of homes to sit empty their home, rather than having to redo the adaptation waiting for people to move in. I took up such a case in somewhere else. I understand the point that the Minister my own constituency recently. The local council said made about this. If a wet room needed to be recreated, that it was not getting as much new homes bonus as it for example, there might well be merit in deciding that had expected, and I wondered whether that was because instead of someone having a three-bedroom house with Suffolk, thought to be prosperous, was missing out. We a wet room, they should move to a one or two-bedroom looked into it and discovered that 120 of the homes apartment, as appropriate. We are saying to councils sitting empty belonged to the local housing association. and housing associations that, instead of Whitehall I found that extraordinary. So we brought the association setting those criteria, they should look after their housing in to find out what was being done to maximise the use stock together and ensure that people’s needs are met. of those houses—whether they were one, two or three- Listening to the stories that have come out today—I bedroom homes. Not only will Flagship have to pay appreciate that they are personal stories about what more money council tax, if those homes are not used, people are experiencing—anyone would think that we because we have allowed councils to charge 100% for in government had done nothing about this. However, empty homes after a certain time, but maximising their we have allowed councils to retain the underspend in use would help the council to keep more of its new discretionary housing payments from previous years, homes bonus. and we have put in extra money for those payments. It is Of course, the market can operate in social housing, not as though we are sitting on our hands and doing as has been eloquently explained, via house swapping. I nothing. understand that 392 house swaps have been arranged in The last sentence of the Labour motion talks about north Kensington, compared to only nine in Doncaster. using It is incumbent on Members to work with their councils “the funding set aside for discretionary housing payments to deal to understand what they are doing to facilitate house with under-occupation by funding local authorities so that they swapping. From what I learned this morning, my own are better able to help people with the cost of moving to suitable area is not doing enough, and I will pursue that matter accommodation.” in the future. In an answer to a parliamentary question, the Minister has told me that a £20 million fund was set aside for Sheila Gilmore: The problem is that the hon. Lady new ideas for councils working together. At that time, and her Front-Bench team do not seem to know what only five councils had applied for that funding, and I the policy is for. We hear that it might be about making would encourage our colleagues to speak to their councillors savings, but if everyone slots into the right-sized house— about that. according to the Government’s criteria, which I do not The hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury necessarily accept—there will be no saving. Is it about (Emily Thornberry) talked about pensioners. There might making savings or making better use of properties? If it be some people who can work an extra three hours to is about making better use of properties, there are lots capture that extra £14 a week. [HON.MEMBERS: “What?”] of better ways to do it. The Government are fixing the problems of the past. This debate reinforces the fact that we in government Dr Coffey: The beauty of Government Members is want to fix the problems, and that Labour remains the that we think we can achieve both. We believe we can party of welfare. save the taxpayer money and put it towards the affordable homes programme. Our estimate—I appreciate that it is only an estimate and that we will have to wait and 2.41 pm see—is that it will save £500 million a year. Meanwhile, Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) (Lab): I we have set aside £4.5 billion for the affordable homes intend to use the term “bedroom tax” today and not programme to build houses in this Parliament and are “under-occupancy penalty” or “single room subsidy”. If already arranging the programme for the next Parliament. that offends anyone, I can assure them they will not be anywhere near as offended as thousands of my constituents Hywel Williams: rose— have been by this repulsive Government attack on disadvantaged and disabled people. The conflict Mr MacNeil rose— surrounding the description of this despicable act reminds me of Margaret Thatcher’s attempt to force the term Dr Coffey: I will not give way. I have given way “community charge” down the throats of the British already and lots of people want to speak. people. Not surprisingly, she failed, and history damned With this policy, we are trying to achieve multiple it as the poll tax. The same fate awaits the single room aims, by making better use of the housing stock and subsidy. working to get more housing built. It is worth noting The policy itself will also fail because, like the poll that Labour voted against the Growth and Infrastructure tax, it is based on mean-mindedness and political dogma. Act 2013, which is one of the things that we introduced It will be also rejected by Conservative and Liberal to unblock housing developments. leaderships yet to come, and once it has gone—as it will 845 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 846 do after the next election—it will be disowned. Even as with this cruel measure is that it is focused on punishing Margaret Thatcher was being driven away from Downing people, and not on dealing with the problems of under- street in tears, John Major was planning to ditch the occupancy. poll tax. He had remembered what Mrs Thatcher had Under-occupancy is plainly a problem, but the bedroom clearly forgotten: that, regardless of how big someone tax is definitely not the solution. Where is the justice in gets for their boots, if they want to win elections and denying tenants the opportunity to move to smaller, stay in power they should keep in touch with public more energy-efficient properties when there are hardly opinion. They should also bear in mind that our electorate any available—that is certainly the case in my constituency are, I am proud to say, for the most part decent and —and at the same time penalising them financially? The fair-minded people who know a pig in a poke when they sensible solution involves helping people and building see one. John Major understood that, which is why he affordable homes for rent. It also involves giving tenants went on to win the next election in 1992. an incentive to downsize, not making them suffer because Prime Ministers have their albatrosses, however: John they are poor and in receipt of welfare benefits. Back in Major’s was the exchange rate mechanism; Margaret Bolton, the Conservative and Liberal councillors actually Thatcher’s was the poll tax; Tony Blair’s was Iraq; and get it, and they have voted for a council motion to Jim Callaghan’s was the winter of discontent. The bedroom abolish the bedroom tax—then again, maybe they tax will belong to the present incumbent. As with the understand what John Major understood when he abolished ancient mariner, it will hang round his neck in shame. the poll tax.
Dr Coffey: The hon. Gentleman might wish to check 2.48 pm the recent opinion polls. We would appreciate it if he were more consistent about changing the rules for people Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): It is a on local housing allowance. If they were so bad for pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bolton North private sector rented flats, why is the situation so different East (Mr Crausby). In my five minutes, I shall explain for the public sector? why what is going on in Labour-run councils is so different from what is going on in Conservative-run councils. I had the honour of being the leader of South Mr Crausby: I do not think that my political principles Derbyshire district council when the Conservatives took have changed, to be perfectly honest. I would have put control from the Labour group in 2007. In 2008, we forward these same arguments prior to the election as implemented the Labour policy of the local homes well. allowance and we managed fine. That is coming along, On a more serious point, nearly 2,500 people back and I am delighted to say that the present leader of the home in Bolton have been affected, and more than 75% district council is my beloved husband. He is also of them have fallen into arrears since April—so much managing fine. In our retained stock, 318 families are for this being a money-saving measure. affected by the measure, and we have immediately adopted a policy of appointing a specific officer to talk to each Sir Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): On the of those 318 families. difficulty of moving, I have a constituent who has got into arrears because of the bedroom tax. The only way Barbara Keeley rose— in which she can get out of arrears is to move to a smaller property but, guess what, she cannot move Heather Wheeler: I am not giving way; I have only because she is in arrears. Does not this demonstrate the five minutes. madness of this policy? The important issue is what we are doing about under-occupancy and what we are doing about the Mr Crausby: Absolutely. I will come to that point in a 1,700 families on the huge waiting list as a result of no moment. new properties being built. I can say that in South The fact is that millions of pounds will be lost. That Derbyshire— represents much-needed cash that needs to be spent on making living conditions better, not worse. The demand Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab) rose— for debt advice and financial service advice is bound to soar, and housing staff will concentrate most of their Heather Wheeler: No, I will not give way to the hon. efforts on chasing rent arrears and helping people to Lady. move—when they can, that is. Legal expenses will escalate, We saw this policy coming along in South Derbyshire and the potential cost of evicting decent families is for some time. What did we do? We built 88 new units of enormous. This additional expense might not come one and two-bedroom properties. Immediately, the council directly from the Government’s coffers, but it will come was able to swap 18 families, and Home Swappers was from British people’s pockets and, frankly, we have able to swap a further 86 families. We are proactive in better things to spend it on. South Derbyshire. We saw what was coming and we One example of the measure’s inflexibility involves talked to the 318 families. The amount is £11.88 a week. constituents of mine who have two children, a boy and Some 44 of the 318 families have said that they want to a girl. The girl was nine when they moved in, just before pay that £11.88. the bedroom tax was implemented. They were not entitled to live in a three-bedroom house until she was Barbara Keeley rose— 10, when she could no longer be expected to share a room with her brother. As a result, the family were Heather Wheeler: No, I am not giving way to the hon. penalised for months until she was 10. The problem Lady. 847 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 848
[Heather Wheeler] the UK average is 31%, and 25,000 of those have a disabled person living in the household. These are huge That is what a proactive council does. I ask Labour figures. Members: what are you doing talking to your Labour A little under a year ago, social housing tenants in my leader; what are you doing talking to your housing constituency received their letters telling them that, chairman; what are you doing talking to the Homes and thanks to this coalition Government’s changes, they Communities Agency; what are you all doing? The would have to pay more rent or move home—that is answer is, “Not enough”. effectively their choice. Opposition Members warned then of the terrible impact the bedroom tax would have Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The on some of our most vulnerable families, and of the hon. Lady says “you”, but I am not responsible and I fear and uncertainty it would bring. I hope the Minister have no wish to be responsible for what she says. does not underestimate in any way the palpable fear and anxiety felt out there among the disabled communities Heather Wheeler: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I and families with small children. apologise. What are Opposition Members doing about it? Clearly not enough. Mrs Moon: Does my hon. Friend also appreciate the I shall finish. This motion is despicable. Thank goodness humiliation and the distress caused for many people with for the reasoned amendment, which I shall vote for with disabilities who have been forced to claim the discretionary great pleasure. housing payment? They have to fill in several pages of a claim form—the claim will often last only for six weeks— Barbara Keeley rose— detailing, for example, how often they wet the bed, how often they need the bedding changed, how often they put the heating on, and so forth. That is a personal Heather Wheeler: I will not give way. invasion, which they found humiliating. Mr Deputy Speaker said that everyone in this Chamber is responsible for what goes on in their constituencies. For goodness’ sake, Labour Members should start leading Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for that in their constituencies. intervention. That is not the only process they have to go through, either. The cumulative effect of the Government’s different benefit changes, particularly on Mr Deputy Speaker: I do not think I quite said that, disabled people, makes things all the more arduous for but I call Jessica Morden. them. The warning from Opposition Members was that far 2.52 pm from saving money, this policy could end up costing Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Thank you, money. The warning was that the very notion of tenants Mr Deputy Speaker. moving to smaller homes was clearly absurd, as there were nowhere near enough smaller properties for them The bedroom tax hits Wales the hardest, which is why to move into. it is good to see so many Members from Welsh constituencies on the Opposition Benches; I see that, on the Government Benches, Wales is represented by the Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Does lone voice of the hon. Member for Monmouth (David my hon. Friend recall the Government’s 2012 impact T. C. Davies). assessment, which said: “Estimates of Housing Benefit savings are based upon the Barbara Keeley: Will my hon. Friend give way? current profile of tenants in the social rented sector, with little tenant mobility assumed. If a significant number of tenants wished to move, this would reduce direct savings and place extra Jessica Morden: I will. demands on social landlords.” Does she agree that this confirms that the Government’s Barbara Keeley: I thank my hon. Friend, but it is a real intention was to balance the books on the backs of pity that the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Heather the poor and vulnerable? Wheeler), who put questions to Labour Members, did not let any of us intervene. In my constituency, Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for that 280 households affected have been able to move—close intervention. It is clear that the Government will save to the hon. Lady’s 318—but 85% of affected households, money only if people stay put and pay up, which is the which means 4,500 in Salford, cannot move. The hon. fundamental point. Lady should think a bit more about those figures: 300 is nothing in comparison with the work load of Opposition The shortage of housing is no more acute than in Members. Wales, where traditional three-bedroom properties predominate and there is a huge shortage of smaller Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for her social properties. Again, the warning back then was intervention, and she is exactly right. The bedroom tax that discretionary housing payments were not enough particularly hits people in Wales—a point to which I to help the disabled and that housing associations would shall return. The policy affects proportionally more be left with a burden of debt, and unenviable choices. housing benefit claimants in Wales than elsewhere in All those warnings were ignored by the Government the UK, with 40,000 households affected by the bedroom coalition parties. Government Members said that debates tax—46% of working-age social housing tenants, when such as this one were characterised by exaggeration, 849 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 850 that we were painting too bleak a picture and that our 2.58 pm predictions were inaccurate. Tragically, those predictions David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Since we have were not wrong. heard a lot of anecdotes from Labour Members, perhaps All Members have constituency cases to quote, so I should tell one or two myself. I was contacted by the here are just a few of mine from the last couple of BBC—not an organisation known for its right-wing weeks. The mother of a disabled child who up to now reactionary views—and asked to meet and talk to people used the third bedroom as a sensory room for her affected by the spare room subsidy. I went along and autistic son, as recommended by a paediatrician, is now heard some very interesting stories. I met a lady in her struggling to find the extra rent. A divorced father late 50s who had worked her entire life. Her family had whose two sons normally stay with him during the left and she lived on her own in a house with too many summer months has had to move because he cannot bedrooms. She was going to have to move. Having been afford to keep his current home and will no longer have made redundant, she had gone out and got herself that access to his children. The largest group is the another job in an area where it was difficult to do that. I numerous families with disability adaptations to their had a great deal of respect for that lady, and I still do. I properties who have no prospect of being moved to feel sorry for her. I think one would have to have a heart smaller accommodation that fits their needs because it of stone not to feel sorry for somebody in that position. would cost far too much to adapt the new properties. It However, when a system is spending billions of pounds is now clear that the financial “assistance” provided to and looking after millions of people and that system already cash-strapped local authorities is not enough, then changes, there will always be people with unfortunate as I see every day in my case work. stories to tell, and I believe that she was one of them.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Will the hon. Lucy Powell: Will my hon. Friend give way? Gentleman give way?
Jessica Morden: I would love to, but I am running out David T. C. Davies: I will give way once, and once of time. only, to an Opposition Member. If the hon. Gentleman wants me to give way now, I shall be happy to do so. Local housing associations are working hard and using their creativity, doing their best to lessen the Ian Murray: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for impact. From the work I see in my constituency, I his generosity. There is a point that he and his hon. realise that they know their tenants and have been in Friends continually miss. I have a constituent who is contact with them in the years preceding this situation. disabled and lives in a two-bedroom council property. The simple fact remains that the vast majority of people Given that 660 people in my constituency are affected hit by the bedroom tax have nowhere to move to within by the bedroom tax and 25,000 are on the housing list, existing social housing provision. the only way in which he can move to a one-bedroom A BBC Wales report earlier this year found four local property in Edinburgh is to go into the private sector. authorities in Wales, including Monmouthshire, had no Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that that will cause one-bedroom properties at all. In Wales, Shelter Cymru the housing benefit bill to rise? has argued that the chronic shortage of one and two- bedroom properties will drive many households into the David T. C. Davies: Let me return to what I was private rented sector, where the local housing allowance saying. The BBC took me to meet three groups of for smaller two-bedroom properties outstrips the rents people, whom it had chosen. The second lady whom I of three-bedroom social property. The difference is as met was looking after four children. They were not her much as 46% across Wales, and in Newport private own children; she was their grandmother. The mother, rents are 36% higher. One Gwent housing association because she was not the main carer for the children, was pointed out that every single private rented property is going to lose out on housing. What those people wanted more expensive than the social rented property. were two large houses to look after the same family. While I felt sorry for everyone involved, including the More damningly still, over the summer my office children, I have to say that the state is not there to conducted some research on housing associations in provide not one, but two sets of very large houses for Wales, showing that more than 50% of affected housing people with large numbers of children. association tenants previously not in arrears—these people were always up to date with their rent—have Another question arose while I was meeting that lady, now been plunged into debt and fallen behind on payments, and it is a frank question. I never use the term “single with housing associations in Wales shouldering over mother” because I think that it is pejorative, and it has £750,000 of extra debt. These are people who were up affected people in my own family. I think it is a to date with their rent before April. When even the hon. generalisation. However, I have absolutely no hesitation Member for Monmouth commenting on the Welsh in talking about feckless fathers. Those children had Affairs Select Committee report admitted publicly that been brought into the world by a group of different the bedroom tax is simply not working in Wales due to males, and those males, having brought those children the dearth of smaller properties, we know just how into the world, had disappeared and left the two ladies badly judged this policy is. to try to bring them up themselves. The bedroom tax is a bad and cruel policy. It is Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Will the forcing people who cannot move into debt. I am thus hon. Gentleman give way? very pleased that my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) tabled the motion David T. C. Davies: No. I said that I would give way before us today. only once to an Opposition Member. 851 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 852
[David T. C. Davies] I am very happy to be here supporting the Government —the coalition Government—on this important issue I think it absolutely outrageous that so many young today. I have only one criticism of the Front Bench, and men in our society feel that they can go out, get women that is this: the next time we are expected to come here pregnant, allow them to have children, make them bring and defend a policy with which all of us on these Benches up those children by themselves—often on benefits—and agree, they should issue us with umbrellas, so that we then just disappear. That is utterly shocking. I hope that can shield ourselves from the shower of crocodile tears Ministers will note what I am saying, and that they will that are raining down upon us from Opposition Members. get hold of some of those feckless fathers, drag them off, make them work—put them in chains if necessary—and 3.4 pm make them pay society back for the cost of bringing up Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): the children whom they chose to bring into this world. I am not sure how to follow that, Mr Deputy Speaker, I also met a young couple, 17 years old, both of but I shall do my best. whom had never worked in their lives. They were living I listened very carefully to the hon. Member for in a two-bedroom or perhaps a one-bedroom flat, and Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), and also to other were being expected to suffer some inconvenience—perhaps Government Members, including the Minister. At the end to move into a studio flat. Let me say to Ministers that, of the Minister’s speech, I concluded that they just did in many instances, they are being far too generous. Why not get it. Almost a decade ago, the Secretary of State, should the state pay for two people to set themselves up who is not with us today, set up the Centre for Social in what is frankly a teenage love nest? When I was Justice. He said then that his aim was to put social 17 years old, if I wanted to see my girlfriend I would go justice at the heart of British politics. What could be and see her on a park bench in Newport. Why are the more opposed to that aim than this appalling, cruel and Government paying for those young people to have a unjust policy of the bedroom tax? flat all by themselves at all, regardless of whether it contains one bedroom or two? The hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) said that 300 families in her constituency were I got into a lot of trouble, because I suggested to the affected by the tax. In a single ward in my constituency, young man that perhaps he should go out and find Norris Green, more than 1,000 families are affected by himself a job. He said that there were no jobs, which, it, and 2,500 are affected in the constituency as a whole. incidentally, contradicted the example of the lady whom It is a totally different situation. One in six households I had seen before him: she had found work. I said, “Why in a ward that suffers enormous social and economic do you not move to where the work is?”, and immediately deprivation are faced with the cruel and unjust policy received a whole load of criticism. that she defended. I was even sent an e-mail from someone who wrote However, it is not just the cruelty and the injustice to “You are a Christian. You should be serving the Lord. which I am objecting. The bedroom tax also undermines One day you will stand by the Lord and account for this the good work that is being done by social landlords hardship.” I wrote back to him saying, “I read my Bible. working with local communities. We are seeing increasing I do not see anything in the Bible that says that 17-year-olds amounts of rent arrears, and increasing numbers of should be given a flat, but I see plenty of examples of void properties. Many people who are finding the money people who have had to move to find a better way of to pay this tax are having to give up other essentials as a life: Abraham going off to the promised land, or Moses, result. As others have pointed out, they are going to or the disciples, who toured all over Europe. They all food banks and to payday lenders. Two in three of those moved.” affected have disabled people living in their households, Victoria station is a prime bit of expensive real estate. and—again, others have mentioned this—many of them There is Boots, Costa Coffee and Starbucks, and there have adapted their homes to meet the needs of their is an office which is recruiting people to work for Pret A disability. Manger. I went there one day last week, and saw that As my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield there were 100 vacancies at Pret A Manger in central (Mr Sheerman) said, the policy also undermines London. It was just waiting to take people on. Young communities. Why should people who have lived in people with an attitude and an ability to go out and do communities for decades, who have been born and have a bit of work can find a job with no problem whatsoever, grown up in those communities, be forced to leave them? and I do not think that we should be supporting them in the way that we are. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) Opposition Members have heard a few anecdotes (PC): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for highlighting from me, because they have liked giving anecdotes some of the injustices of this policy. Does he agree that themselves. What we have not heard from them is Labour councils such as the one in my patch in anything with much substance. They do not want to Carmarthenshire should introduce a no-evictions policy? talk about the fact that they introduced a measure like this for the private sector. None of them will answer the Stephen Twigg: I do not want to see people evicted, question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk but I think that there is a more intelligent way of Coastal (Dr Coffey). They do not want to talk about achieving what the hon. Gentleman and I want to see their disgraceful record on house building, which has than merely adopting a slogan. I think that Labour and led to a disgraceful level of overcrowding. Most of all, other councils all over the country are doing their very they do not want to talk about the fact that by borrowing best to prevent evictions hundreds of millions of pounds which they did not In Merseyside a year ago, there were 1,378 empty have, they created the financial crisis that forced us into properties run by social landlords; the figure is not this situation in the first place. 1,956. That is a 40% increase. In Liverpool, rent arrears 853 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 854 have already risen by 12.5%, and we are only six months The Prime Minister said at last year’s Conservative into this policy. We heard a great deal from the Minister party conference: about discretionary housing payments. The pot for “Conservative methods are not just good for the strong and the Liverpool is £1.6 million, but the housing benefit shortfall successful but the best way to help the poor, and the weak, and that has resulted from the introduction of the bedroom the vulnerable.” tax is £7.5 million. In other words, less than a quarter is Where is the social justice in the bedroom tax? There is available through discretionary housing payments. A no justice. Where is the compassion we used to hear lady who came to my surgery last week had just received about from this Government? There is no compassion. her second discretionary housing payment, with my The promises we have heard—the words of the Minister support. It will last her until January, but the money today, the words of the Prime Minister last year—ring simply will not be there in January for her to receive a very hollow in my constituency, not just to those affected third payment. by the bedroom tax, but to others who care about the communities in which they live. This is a tax that hits Lucy Powell: We heard about Manchester city council’s the poor, the weak and the vulnerable. It is a symbol of discretionary housing payment pot. I now have the the social injustice for which we know the Conservative figures. Manchester has been allocated £1.9 million, party stands. I urge colleagues on both sides of the and £1.2 million of that has already been spent. Did my House, including the Liberal Democrats, to vote with us hon. Friend gather from the Minister, as I did, that he tonight against this cruel, unjust, unworkable bedroom was guaranteeing that all those who qualified for money tax. from the discretionary housing fund would be able to receive it later in the year? 3.12 pm Stephen Twigg: I listened carefully to what the Minister said, and it seemed to me that he was saying exactly Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I voted against this that. I should appreciate an answer to my hon. Friend’s policy before and I will again be voting against the question from the Minister. If the needs of the lady in Government today, but I have to say that the Labour my constituency whom I have just mentioned are the motion is tortuous and convoluted and not very well-argued. same in January and there is no longer any money left in My hon. Friend the Minister who opened the debate for the pot in Liverpool, will the Government come up with the Government is right that the Labour party is incoherent the additional funds that are needed to ensure that in that it brought forward policies introducing a bedroom those discretionary payments continue? tax in the private sector yet opposes it, on the basis of a principle it claims to abide by, in relation to this measure. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Ms Buck: I want to nail that argument, which we have heard time and again from the Conservative party. Stephen Twigg: I have given way twice, so I shall not The fact is that the local housing allowance did not do so again. apply to existing tenants. That is the fundamental difference. I have also noticed a perverse effect of this policy on the constituents who come to see me. Often now, people Andrew George: The point still applies because ultimately who have been on the social housing waiting list for the previous Government were seeking to achieve exactly some time and who are entitled to a larger home are what the current Government want to achieve in respect reluctant to move to a larger home. That is sometimes of the social rented sector. because they would have to pay more. However, I am meeting families who would not be subject to the bedroom Several hon. Members rose— tax but who are nervous of taking the larger property because they think their situation might change in the Andrew George: I will not give way again on that point. future—they might lose their job and therefore have to The debate has thus far largely focused on talking go on to housing benefit, or their sons or daughters about a ghetto—or, rather, reservation—of people who might move away and suddenly they have spare bedrooms. live in social rented accommodation. It is, however, The result of this is not just a general increase in the important to place this debate in the context of the way number of empty properties, but, in particular, an increase in which the whole housing market works and the in the number of empty larger properties. Liverpool important role social housing plays in relation to that. Mutual Homes has had a brilliant programme over In my constituency, many properties are sold as recent years of improving its properties so the standard recreational investments to wealthy investors to be used is very high, yet it is finding it very difficult to fill those as a second home or holiday home. Meanwhile, some properties. In April last year LMH had just 18 vacant hard-working, low-paid families will be evicted from three-bedroom properties; that number has now trebled their council houses because the Government believe to 54. How can that be right, and in the name of dealing they have one more bedroom than they deserve. I voted with overcrowding how can it make any sense to have an against this policy previously and my opposition to it is, increase in the number of empty larger family properties if anything, even stronger now that I have met many of in Liverpool and other communities around the country? my constituents who are affected by it. We heard earlier from the hon. Member for South This policy will not increase the stock of desperately Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) about leadership. The needed affordable homes for local people. The spare Opposition are showing real leadership. This is an enormous room penalty or bedroom tax victimises the most issue in the city of Liverpool, in my constituency and marginalised in our communities, undermines family across Merseyside. It is directly affecting families and life, penalises the hard-working low-paid for being prepared communities across my constituency. to stomach low-paid work, and masks the excessive cost 855 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 856
[Andrew George] policy is not based on a prejudice in respect of some of those who are marginalised, many of whom do not and disruption to the disabled who have to move from vote, I am sorry to say that it is based on an indifference expensively adapted homes. It is, in my view, Dickensian to the most vulnerable families in our communities. in its social divisiveness. It is an immoral policy.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): 3.19 pm The hon. Gentleman is making a good speech and I am Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): I glad he will vote with us tonight. Does he agree that one rise to support the motion, but before I do so, I would of the most vindictive aspects of this policy is the way it like to express my deep appreciation to all hon. Members penalises carers? I have mentioned the Carers UK research who have expressed their condolences on the death of on how carers are being affected. It found that among Eddie McGrady; their sympathy is deeply appreciated, the households affected, one in six carers—people who and I thank them for it. cannot get more hours of work because they have given up their jobs to care—had rent arrears and faced possible The bedroom tax is a pernicious and cruel tax that is evictions. causing untold hardship to the most vulnerable in our society. This crude and ill-thought-out levy is perhaps the least palatable part of the Government’s welfare Andrew George: The hon. Lady makes a very good reform programme. Only parties so detached from the point. I think this policy has been introduced in such a lives and struggles of ordinary people could be so headlong rush that some of the inconsistencies and heartless as to inflict this tax, which is causing so much consequences have not been thought through carefully hurt to people whose only crime seems to be that they enough. The issue has been approached from entirely cannot afford to buy their own home. The fact that the the wrong angle. If there is a problem with the housing Government—or, more correctly perhaps, the Deputy stock, it is wrong that people in the social housing Prime Minister—have been dragged kicking and screaming sector who are apparently over-housed should, in effect, into undertaking independent research into the impact be blamed by people elsewhere in the local community of it all tells its own story; in his heart, he must know who are rather under-housed. They are being blamed that this tax is wrong. for the effects of the failure of successive Governments to build enough affordable homes of sufficient size to give communities the flexibility to be able to ensure that Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): While recognising local families have accommodation of adequate size that the Deputy Prime Minister has been dragged kicking and to meet the range of needs that exist. and screaming into this, does the hon. Gentleman find it regrettable that the review of the bedroom tax will not The Liberal Democrats have proposed a mansion come through until 2015? tax. That has been opposed by some people with large mansions who are quite happy to impose a bedroom tax on people who are clearly going to be severely affected Dr McDonnell: Yes, I do, and I am deeply concerned by that. Furthermore, in rural areas like mine, many of about that. However, we do not need any more research the people who are affected and who are prepared to to tell us that this tax is wrong and that it will inflict an uproot themselves and move—in many cases from long- inordinate degree of hardship that shames us all, and standing family homes to a smaller property—cannot the Government in particular. Those who are suffering find a property within 20, 30, 40 and sometimes 50 miles. from the impact of this tax—they are some of the very In order for many rural areas to be able to comply with weakest in our society—do not want research on how it this policy, people have to uproot themselves from their will affect them; they want these cruel deductions in community and place of work, their children’s schooling, housing benefit stopped, and stopped now. their church, and their social and family networks—from I represent a constituency in Northern Ireland where everything—and go to alien places. Even in Cornwall the bedroom tax has not yet been introduced, and my there are places which many Cornish folk would find colleagues in the Northern Ireland Assembly and I are alien to them. That is the only option for them, however, fighting tooth and nail to prevent it from happening. other than having to face extremely penal charges in That is because more than 32,500 households in Northern order to carry on living in their current home. Ireland are bracing themselves for the pain and suffering I was involved in building affordable homes for local this tax would cause. They look at what is happening on people before I was elected to this place. We tried to this side of the Irish sea and they are deeply fearful. A introduce new schemes with sufficient three and four- couple of aspects of this bedroom tax make it an even bedroom accommodation to ensure that the community crazier proposition for us in Northern Ireland: we quite would in future have the flexibility to meet the range of simply do not have the required housing stock for needs that might arise. That was important because people to downsize, and the stock we do have is, sadly, these properties would be available for decades. This tax segregated. will discourage housing associations and others who want to build housing in years to come from making Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) sure they build a broad range of properties and thereby (Lab): I welcome everything that the hon. Gentleman provide the flexibility to meet future needs. They will has said. Does he agree that there are times in this instead build smaller properties, which will result in House when things are so profoundly wrong that those increased overcrowding in future. If we go in that direction, on both sides of the House recognise it, but the trouble we will end up with further ghettos. The ghettos of the is that some cannot get around to admitting simply that future will be built as a result of this policy. That will be they were wrong? Will he urge those who have not yet the consequence of going forward on this basis. If this been convinced to say exactly that? 857 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 858
Dr McDonnell: I agree entirely with the right hon. and we have heard about that again today. The HRS has Gentleman The point about this tax is that when it was also spoken of introduced it looked bad, but with every week that goes “single fathers who require more than one bedroom to facilitate past it looks worse. We have to do what we can. With all overnight access to children.” honesty and all integrity, I can say that I think it is The introduction of a bedroom tax and the implementation damaging, and I will come on to say why. of the under-occupancy penalty can only result in increased Given the number of people on disability payments hardship, confusion and the erosion of community in Northern Ireland, the lack of alternative housing and cohesion. This is a bad tax, a pernicious tax, and it is the complicated matter of segregated housing, which I my fervent hope that, like the poll tax, it is consigned to have mentioned, the bedroom tax poses us unique challenges the dustbin. that are currently being overlooked here. These issues do not particularly affect this side of the Irish sea, so let 3.27 pm me go into them in some detail. Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Before I make my The Northern Ireland Housing Executive manages speech, let me say that I listened to the passionate mainly three-bedroom homes that were built 20 to 30 remarks made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West years ago, because that is what we needed then, and it is Derby (Stephen Twigg), who was really unhappy about facing unique pressures because of these benefit reforms. the impact of the benefit changes. However, perhaps he Even if some of the 32,500 households affected request would like to speak to his Labour-run Liverpool council to be rehoused in smaller properties, the smaller properties and ask why, when it received £892,000 in discretionary they require simply do not exist at this stage and it will housing payments last year, it actually sent back £337,000. take us 10 years at least to get them built. Northern Perhaps he could take that up when he leaves the Ireland does not have enough small homes to cater for Chamber— people forced to downsize. The unique and sensitive situation of segregated housing Stephen Twigg: Will the hon. Lady give way? in Northern Ireland makes things even worse and needs Mrs Main: No, I will not take an intervention— to be taken into consideration. The Northern Ireland [Interruption.] Human Rights Commission has come out against the bedroom tax, highlighting the pockets of deep poverty Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order— and the fact that more than 90% of public housing is [Interruption.] Order. That means you, too, Mr Rotheram. segregated along religious lines—that is a hangover Let us calm down. The hon. Lady has made a statement from the troubles, whereby people are segregated for and I think Mr Twigg would like to have caught her eye, safety. Northern Ireland is facing unique, exceptional but it is up to the Member who has the Floor whether challenges that would be severely worsened by the tax. they want to take an intervention. It is failing the most vulnerable in society and no Government could or should be very proud of that. Mrs Main: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think Not only would the bedroom tax be cruel and savage that Mr Twigg can just ponder for a while—[Interruption.] in Northern Ireland, but it would be illogical. Research I am going to shock the Opposition, who obviously has shown that implementing the bedroom tax in Northern want to shout me down. Unicorns do not exist, fairies Ireland would cost more than it would save or was do not exist and a bedroom tax does not exist. designed to save. The Northern Ireland Federation of Housing Associations and the Chartered Institute of Stephen Twigg: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Housing have published figures showing that implementing Speaker. The hon. Lady did not show me or the House the tax would cost the housing associations and the the courtesy of allowing me to intervene after she Northern Ireland Housing Executive £21 million per referred to something that I had said. Does she accept year, but would save only £17 million per year, so the that the figures that she has given are from before the mathematics of this brutal tax do not make sense either. bedroom tax was introduced? This year, Liverpool city I draw the House’s attention to the following words council will certainly spend the entire discretionary from Cameron Watt, chief executive of the Northern housing pot. Ireland Federation of Housing Associations: Mr Deputy Speaker: That is not a point of order, but “It’s clear that the numbers don’t add up on bedroom tax. it was certainly a point of clarification. Northern Ireland cannot afford the human or economic damage this policy would inflict.” Mrs Main: As I was about to say, unicorns do not The Social Democratic and Labour party, which I exist, fairies do not exist and—it does not matter how represent, has social justice as a core pillar of its purpose often Opposition Members say it—a bedroom tax does and its existence as a political organisation. The bedroom not exist. I found it very interesting when we all looked tax is a clear assault on social justice, as was demonstrated at our Order Papers yesterday and there it was: we were clearly by the Housing Rights Service, which provides going to discuss a bedroom tax. Funnily enough, however, independent housing advice and training in Northern we are not discussing a bedroom tax, because it does Ireland. The HRS has told us how it is already being not exist and it would be procedurally out of order for contacted by many social housing tenants who are us to debate it. The mishmash of today’s debate has living in fear and dread of the bedroom tax. Many of been rushed through because the Opposition realise those tenants have lived in the same home, as secure that by closing their eyes and saying the wishful words tenants, for a lifetime and cannot understand why they “bedroom tax” they cannot conjure one up—it does not should suddenly be asked to pay more or get out. The exist. If they consult Tolley’s tax guide, they will see that HRS has told us about they are being financially illiterate— “clients with disabilities who need an additional bedroom to store medical equipment”, Emily Thornberry rose— 859 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 860
Mrs Main: No, I will not give way. The hon. Lady can Mrs Main: I am delighted that the hon. Lady wishes make her own remarks. to give herself another minute, although her colleagues It appears that in trying to garner support for the might object. Would she like to explain how Labour incoherent policy that tried to level the playing field was prepared to level a tax on the private rented sector with the private rented sector—I thought that was a and why they believe another tax is being introduced in good idea as a Labour party policy—Labour started the social rented sector when no such tax exists? Why the process that should have been continued by ensuring are they shroud waving? that people paid for the accommodation that they were using. I have not heard from Opposition Members— Sandra Osborne: The hon. Lady’s question has been perhaps they can illuminate the House and the public answered by colleagues on numerous occasions today on this point during their speeches—what, if they choose and it is an absolute red herring. to get rid of the inequality of a bedroom tax, which We can all accept that welfare reform is necessary, but obviously does not exist, but let us go with the fantasy it must be based on what is fair and what best protects for a moment, they will do when they are in power. Will the most vulnerable. In other words, it must provide a they allow the anomaly, or will they pledge, at goodness secure safety net. Plenty of people are plummeting to knows what expense, to reverse the proposals that they the ground right now in my constituency.The Government’s introduced in 2008? reform is based on pure populism; they are picking on the poor and turning one section of the community Sheila Gilmore rose— against the least well-off, many of them disabled, while having the bare-faced cheek to say that we are all in it Mrs Main: No, I will not give way to the hon. Lady. together. The Opposition should also address overcrowding. When was it decided that only those with means have As yet, they have not done what Mr Tom Copley says the right to a stable and loving home environment, that they should do and apologise for the fact that they never mind the fact that smaller social rented homes are never addressed the dire need to build more social not available? I am tempted to ask, “Hands up all hon. housing to allow— Members who have at least one extra bedroom in their home,” or perhaps even, “Hands up those who have one Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab) rose— extra house.” The cost of living is the main concern in my constituency, Mrs Main: No, the hon. Lady will have her time at and we all know that the use of food banks is rocketing. the end. The local citizens advice bureau tells me that the number Mr Copley said: of people coming to it with problems connected to “As a Labour politician one of the things that really galls me is payday loans is increasing. I am worried about tenants that there’s this statistic that more council homes were built in the getting into debt as a result of the bedroom tax, but, in last year of Thatcher’s government than were built in the 13 years some ways, I am more worried about the people who of Labour government, and that’s something I think as a Labour pay the bedroom tax. Where do they find the money, as Party we need to apologise for.” they cannot possibly afford it? How many of them are The apology needs to be made because the dearth of sitting silently at home, feeling that there is nowhere to social housing that we inherited was a direct result of turn? It may come as a surprise to some Members who Labour’s inability in the good times to deliver sufficient do not understand working-class values, but getting adequate social housing. The Labour party should be into debt or seeking discretionary housing payment, ashamed of itself and it should apologise. even if people are entitled to it, is anathema to many of I do not think that the Opposition has a coherent them. policy. They want to penalise people in the private I challenge the Government to have the courage and rented sector. They are not making any commitment to honesty to admit that the measure is not about under- redress the imbalance, yet they wish to have what they occupancy at all. It is part of a regime of sanctions on see as a core vote that might be deserting them in those who dare to be poor. The Government should droves. We helped the aspirational working class during also have the courage and honesty to admit that this is Thatcher’s era under the right to buy, but unlike us, they an attempt to shift responsibility for this shambles on to introduced a policy to penalise only the private sector. underfunded local councils and housing associations, Labour is the party of inequality, not the party of which have been left to pick up the pieces. equality. I congratulate the coalition Government on all their efforts to level the playing field for more people Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): both in social and private rented housing. Although the bedroom tax is disgraceful and its impact on residents who are affected is absolutely shocking, I 3.32 pm hope that my hon. Friend will make a point about its impact on housing associations and councils that have Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): built up arrears and will not be able to deliver good I invite the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) to housing in future. come to my constituency and ask my constituents whether the bedroom tax exists or whether they are away with Sandra Osborne: Indeed. Councils face massive cuts the fairies. in their budgets and daily increases in the demand for services, and they are inadequately funded to provide Mrs Main rose— discretionary assistance to those who face bedroom tax arrears. That is not helped by the kind of council Sandra Osborne: Iamhappytogiveway. beauty contest that the Scottish National party has 861 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 862 encouraged between Labour-led and SNP-led councils, housing supply was barely mentioned, I am not surprised or any other combination of council leadership, about that housing benefit has barely been mentioned in today’s who is doing most to protect tenants from eviction. All debate. We have had the same old stories as we heard councils, I am sure, are doing their best to protect last week and in previous weeks trotted out yet again. tenants in difficult circumstances. The Labour party is still fiscally incoherent and still policy incoherent. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- Thirteen years of Labour created the problem. For op): Does my hon. Friend agree that one thing that 13 years, the Labour Government did nothing about it. could be done in Scotland would be the enactment of They created the perfect storm of insufficient house the Member’s Bill introduced by my former colleague, building, record overcrowding and housing benefit out Jackie Baillie MSP, in the Scottish Parliament? of control. This is a Labour problem and even a Labour solution, as we heard earlier today. Sandra Osborne: I am going on to refer to that. In East Ayrshire council, 2,300 tenants are caught by Mrs McGuire: Is it the Government’s case, then, that the bedroom tax, and more than 1,400 are already in they inherited a bad situation and have set about making arrears as a result—that is 62%—and the figure grows it worse? every month. The council estimates that it will have £500,000 of arrears by the end of the financial year as a Mike Freer: No. The crux of the matter is that we result. In Scotland, as my hon. Friends have said, we inherited a bad situation and we are setting about have the added dimension of an SNP Government on putting it right. That is what this is about. At least the pause, while they throw everything into their referendum Labour housing spokesman on the London assembly campaign. had the honesty to stand up and say that the Labour party got it wrong and that it should apologise, as my Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP) Will hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) the hon. Lady give way? mentioned. He also pointed out that every Conservative Government have built more social housing than Sandra Osborne: I do not have time, sorry. any Labour Government in recent history. Even in Even scrapping the bedroom tax is relegated to a Mrs Thatcher’s last year, the then Government built “things to do after independence” file—a very fat file more social housing than was built in all 13 years of the indeed. The SNP boasts that it will abolish the bedroom Labour Government, so we do not need lectures on tax after independence. People should not hold their housing supply and social housing from the Opposition. breath waiting for that day to come, but nor should they have to wait for a Labour Government to scrap the tax. Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Is not the central The Government should have the decency to scrap it issue of this debate the fact that it is wrong to ask the now, and they would do so if they had an ounce of taxpayer to pick up the bill for some people who have decency. accommodation that they simply do not need? We need action here and now, and if the coalition Government are not prepared to act others must do so. Mike Freer: My hon. Friend is right. My casework is That is why Labour has introduced a Bill in the Scottish about families living in overcrowded accommodation Parliament to ensure that any social tenant who is who cannot get into the right accommodation. That is genuinely unable to pay the bedroom tax will not be what we need to put right. evicted. The Church of Scotland said in support of With reference to London, as that is the most populous the Bill: part of the UK, let us not forget how Labour’s Ken “Whilst we recognise that local authority budgets are being Livingstone destroyed social house building at a stroke continually squeezed, forcing those who cannot afford these when he was Mayor. His arbitrary thresholds ground additional payments to carry the burden for this flawed policy is social house building to a halt because builders built to not fair.” the threshold and then they stopped. It is for times like these that the Scottish Parliament was created. The bedroom tax is a perfect example of just Emily Thornberry rose— how the Scottish Parliament could act to make a real difference to tenants across Scotland, when the UK Mike Freer: No, I am sorry. I have given way once Government refuses to listen, but that would mean and I am running out of time. making devolution work for vulnerable Scottish families, Under that policy, we got no social housing at all on and the SNP cannot allow that to happen. When it smaller developments because builders built to the threshold. comes to the bedroom tax, the SNP, like the Tories, has That was Labour’s legacy in London. Of course there its own agenda and priorities. This Government see are difficulties, as the population makes the transition nothing wrong with the bedroom tax, as we have heard. to the new arrangements, but, as I mentioned, I cannot In fact, some Government Members do not even think be alone in the Chamber in having to deal with constituents that it exists. The SNP see it as an opportunity for in accommodation that is too small for them, where building resentment. Only Labour sees it for what it children and parents are sharing bedrooms, where children is—a social injustice which must be scrapped. of different sexes approaching puberty have to share bedrooms, or where living rooms are doubling up as 3.39 pm bedrooms. Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): What about the families consigned to emergency Having sat through 90 minutes of a Westminster Hall accommodation? We do not hear much about that from debate last week ostensibly on housing supply, where the Opposition today. That is a problem forgotten by 863 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 864
[Mike Freer] other social tenants, it would not save money, and that savings would come about only if the policy did not Labour and being dealt with by the Government. It is work. Contrary to the statements from some Government argued that it is cheaper to subsidise spare rooms than Members, those two objectives are mutually incompatible. to move people or adapt homes, yet the overall costs of The impact statement showed that an estimated one converting larger properties to smaller accommodation in three of those affected would go into arrears. The would be repaid by the savings on emergency Government knew that arrears were the likely consequence accommodation alone. of this policy, and that is what we have seen. What we have not heard is another truth, which is that two thirds Sheila Gilmore: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? of those people affected by the bedroom tax are also affected by the Government’s cuts in council tax benefit. Mike Freer: No. I have given way once already and Out of their very low incomes of £75 or £105 a week we are running out of time. they are having to make a contribution of £14, or in some cases £20-plus, for their bedroom tax and their Sheila Gilmore rose— council tax.
Mike Freer: You can bob up and down as much as Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Is not you like. I have given way once. one of the big problems the lack of accommodation? It The capital cost of adaptions for disabled people is ridiculous to try to move people from large to small moving into smaller accommodation is also likely to be accommodation when we do not have it. Will that not offset by the savings in rehousing those who are in contribute to the housing bubble? temporary accommodation. In my authority, the average cost of adaption for a disabled property is £7,000, Ms Buck: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was yet my council spends on average on emergency about to make that point. The impact assessment also accommodation £14,000 for one placement. So one told us—as has been mentioned already this afternoon— placement would pay for two houses to be adapted. that the distribution of properties across the country Again, the fiscally incoherent Labour party argues that does not match the two objectives of downsizing and the cost of downsizing is offset by the housing benefit, dealing with overcrowding. In the north-west, in Yorkshire, but what about the larger families already in the private 43% of social tenants are affected by the bedroom tax, sector who may then be rehoused in those properties and I think the figure is worse in Wales. That is more that become vacant? Little is said of that saving. than double the rate for London, yet it is London that This is a completely one-sided debate. What about has the most serious problem of overcrowding: one in the private rented sector? People in such accommodation six properties is overcrowded. So the policy is predicated do not get spare rooms. What about the people in my not just on people moving from one property to another office? They work, yet they do not even get a flat of in their neighbourhood or community, which might their own. They have to share. You are quiet on the have some sense to it, but on people moving from one private sector. Let us make it fair. This was your policy. part of the country to another, from one end of the You were quite happy to tax the private sector spare country to another. Frankly, that is not how people live. rooms, but now you say no. People are not sticks of wood. People are not crates of dry goods that can be put in a container and taken from Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. London to Liverpool or Wales, because that is how the The hon. Gentleman should calm down and stop accusing distribution of property suits their needs. the Chair of everything. He repeatedly uses “you” when he should be directing his accusations to Opposition Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I agree entirely Members, not the Chair. with my hon. Friend that this will lead to the mass movement of vulnerable people around the country. Mike Freer: I would never be rude to you, Madam What impact does she think that will have on seaside Deputy Speaker, as you well know, but I feel passionately towns, which have many hundreds of houses in multiple about this. I was raised in a two-up, two-down, with no occupation, which are not fit to bring children up in, or outside toilet—[Interruption]—with an outside toilet for anybody to be living in? and no inside bathroom. Opposition Members might laugh, but I know what it is like to live in poor Ms Buck: My hon. Friend is right. We are already accommodation and I do not need lectures from them seeing some of the impacts of this and other housing about what it is like to live in poor accommodation. The and welfare policies impacting detrimentally on seaside Conservative party is the party of aspiration; it is the towns, in the say way as happened in the 1980s and party that is solving the mess; and I will vote for the 1990s. But the fact is that this policy simply cannot amendment. achieve the objective of tackling overcrowding because the larger properties are in the wrong place, and the 3.45 pm numbers demonstrate that. It will work only if people Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): In powerful do something that they do not want to do, which is to speeches from the Front and Back Benches, we have leave their homes, communities, networks, grandchildren, heard arguments against the bedroom tax, all of which and families—to leave the people for whom they provide were predicted and laid out by the Government in their care. impact statement. The impact statement made it clear That is also why those Government Members who that if this policy worked, in so far as it allowed people have repeatedly made the argument that the Labour to downsize and their properties to be occupied by Government introduced a local housing allowance that 865 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 866 applied a restriction on bedrooms in the private sector He asked me to vote against the bedroom tax this are so fundamentally wrong. A third of all private afternoon, and I will be very proud to honour an tenants across the country have lived in their homes for obligation to him by doing so. less than a year. Whether we like it or not, and whatever changes we might want to make to it, the private rented 3.52 pm sector is highly mobile. Some 40% of all social tenants have lived in their homes for 10 years or more. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): It is an honour to People went into a social property believing that it follow the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) was a home for life. They believed that they would be and my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and able to bring up children, look after elderly relatives, Golders Green (Mike Freer), both of whom illustrated care for people, live in their communities and contribute the passionate arguments on both sides of the debate. to them because they had a home there. That has now On one side, there are the concerns about overcrowding, been removed, and it has been removed—this is the and many constituents have come to see me about that. absolute cruelty of the bedroom tax—retrospectively. One constituent, in particular, has been trying for 10 years The situation simply cannot be compared with the to move out of her two-bedroom house with her partner private rented sector, because people in that sector and three children and into a three-bedroom house. On move around much more and they are not impacted the other, there are concerns about people who find retrospectively. themselves in the position the hon. Member for Westminster North has just outlined. Housing policy in this country has been in a bit of a Dr Coffey: I agree with the hon. Lady that this is mess for years, under many Governments. I remember retrospective, unlike her point about local housing the attempt at housing market renewal in north allowance, but the principle is the same, although it Staffordshire, when the previous Government tore down might not have been applied retrospectively when it was hundreds, if not thousands, of perfectly good houses in introduced by the previous Government. On her point an attempt to boost house prices. What a misguided about private mobility, it is we on the Government policy. Benches who are trying to help people buy their homes. Emily Thornberry: Does the hon. Gentleman agree Ms Buck: There is no attempt to do anything of the that it is a sensible policy to interview people in social kind, otherwise people would be looking at longer term housing as they reach retirement or as their children tenancies and introducing that. The fact is that there is leave home and discuss the possibility of their moving no principle in this. The principle of a tax being into homes for life so that they can give up the three or retrospective, as it is in this case, is the only principle four-bedroom houses in which they have brought up that matters. their families and hand them over to families who need Even within the Conservative-led London borough them? of Westminster, which has a serious overcrowding problem, people are still unable to move. They are unable to move Jeremy Lefroy: That is an eminently sensible policy within the borough, let alone to Liverpool or Wales. Of and I am glad that the hon. Lady has raised it. the 405 families affected—it is a small number, because The Government’s amendment London is not the most affected by the bedroom tax—only “notes the Government’s continuing commitment to monitor the 40 have been able to move. Half of them are in arrears effects of the policy and the use of Discretionary Housing Payments”. and half of them are disabled. I welcome that openness. Indeed, this debate is a good I will conclude my remarks by referring to one of the opportunity, about seven months into the policy, for the many difficult cases that have been brought to my Minister to hear about what is taking place on the attention. A gentleman e-mailed me at the weekend. He ground. Having yesterday met local authorities from wrote: the area that I represent, I want to give a few figures and describe a bit of the experience that they set out to me. “I’m a 50-year-old single man living in a two-bedroom flat and have been hit by the so-called Bedroom Tax. I’m on employment As of 30 September this year, in just a small part of support allowance and have been suffering from Chronic Depression my constituency and in one of the social housing providers, and Anxiety for several years now and I’m now finding these 371 out of 467 affected households were in arrears—over latest attacks on the weakest and most vulnerable in society very three quarters. Another provider had 19 affected households difficult to deal with. I have little money and now find my rent that were at “notice seeking possession” stage. That has arrears total nearly £800 as a result of the Bedroom Tax. I’m continuing to pay the previous level of rent, but the council have arisen only since April, although, importantly, I understand now sent me a letter saying that the next step will be to serve me that those 19 households are now being sorted out with a Notice of Seeking Possession if I don’t pay the arrears in through the application of discretionary housing payments. full. I simply can’t do this. I’m loth to downsize for several reasons. My main reason is Chris Ruane: I believe that £100 million has been set that I’ve lived at my present address for over 29 years and there is aside for DHP, but that it is going to be cut by 33%. a lot of sentimentality connected with my home… because I lived What impact does the hon. Gentleman think that cut here with my brother, who sadly passed away… This is my last will have on the tenants he is talking about? link to him and I really couldn’t envisage living anywhere else. I’m feeling increasingly fatalistic and helpless and my thoughts are Jeremy Lefroy: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his turning more and more to ending my life, which is something I’ve successfully avoided since my brother’s death. This latest setback intervention. I will come to that later in my speech. just seems so insurmountable and there really doesn’t seem to be Discretionary housing payments are extremely important any sympathy or understanding… I no longer have anywhere to because they provide flexibility; indeed, I would wish turn.” for a bit more flexibility. 867 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 868
[Jeremy Lefroy] The Government have committed to monitor the effects of the policy. This debate is a good chance for My authority is working very hard to assist people the Government to listen to reasonable suggestions for who are in difficulties as a result of this policy. I want to changes to the policy in the interests of all our constituents. draw out a number of things from its experience. First, it is vital, as the hon. Member for Islington South and 4pm Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) said, that local authorities work with social housing providers to help all those Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): As time is short, I refer affected. the House to my speech on this matter in Westminster Hall last week and to a speech I made in February, Lilian Greenwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? when Plaid Cymru, the Scottish National party and the Green party called a debate on this very issue. I am glad Jeremy Lefroy: This will be my third intervention, but that the Labour party has asked for this debate and I as it is the hon. Lady, I will. will support it as it supported us in February. I also refer the House to my amendment (b). Lilian Greenwood: I wonder how it will be possible for local authorities to help all those who are affected. The aim of the under-occupancy penalty is allegedly Nottingham was allocated £696,000, and over 6,000 to free up the logjam in available housing, but one of tenants in the city are affected. Its total missing housing my fundamental objections to it is that the Government benefit amounts to over £4 million. It is no surprise are using tenants as a battering ram to do so. That is when Nottingham City Homes tells me that over half unacceptable. I asked the Secretary of State a few days its tenants are in arrears. There is simply not the money ago, to assist all those who are affected. “what estimate he has made of the number of people in Wales who will move house as a result of the social housing under-occupancy Jeremy Lefroy: I am sure that the Minister has heard penalty.” that. He mentioned the extra £20 million, which I The answer is interesting: should hope that Nottingham would bid for. Perhaps “The Department is not able to reliably estimate the number of that sum could be increased; in fact, that is something I people in Wales who will move house as a result of the Removal would ask for. of the Spare Room Subsidy due to the small sample sizes involved.”— [Official Report, 4 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 95W.] Discretionary housing payments are extremely important, as shown by the experience of my local council. As the Clearly, the Government do not expect huge numbers Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for of people in Wales to move. They do, though, expect to Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), said, the system make substantial savings on housing benefit. That is the needs to be administered more flexibly so that, perhaps, reality—not moving people on, but making savings on hard cases that are currently excluded are included. benefits. The direct experience of my constituents is Again, I am sure that the Minister is listening. that they cannot move on. There is nowhere for them to move to. We have heard about tenants getting into debt and therefore being unable to move. That Catch-22 situation Earlier this year, I asked the Government what research has to be dealt with. People who are in arrears must be had been undertaken on private market elasticity—the able to move if they are in arrears as a result of this ability of the market to provide—in response to the policy and not of historical arrears. The Government bedroom tax in rural Wales. I was told that no such could consider the rates that are charged, which are set research had been undertaken before the charge was at 14% and 25% for one-bedroom and two-bedroom brought in. There would apparently be research in 2015, properties. Perhaps there could be a lower rate that was and reports would be published in 2016, a full two and increased gradually over the years as additional appropriate half years after the charge was introduced. housing was provided. This must not result in evictions. More fundamentally, I am concerned about the effect Some councils have no-eviction policies, and that is a on estates. I was brought up on a council estate. It was a very commendable approach. I would look for all possible very stable area, with a mix of people from a variety of measures to be taken prior to eviction being enforced. backgrounds. Many of them were the sort of people Many unintended consequences of the policy were who had seen their children move on, but who still lived mentioned by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West in three-bedroom houses and provided such estates with Derby (Stephen Twigg) and, particularly in respect of the anchor and stability that we believe to be so important. rural areas, by my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives They knew the difference between a house and a home—a (Andrew George). Those need to be looked at very distinction that has eluded the current Government. carefully, and am sure that the Minister will do so. I will end by referring briefly to funding for hardship The Government could also look at the costs of and to my amendment—I regret that it has not been administering social housing. Let me put this in perspective. selected—which also stands in the names of my right In South Staffordshire, the discretionary housing payment hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd pot is £90,000, and people are working very hard to (Mr Llwyd) and my hon. Friend the Member for make the system work. I was therefore a little surprised Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). to read that the salaries and benefits of the directors of My own local authority of Gwynedd has a review one of the local social housing providers were £223,000, group on hardship payments. It brings together people £160,000, £149,000, £136,000 and £139,000. Given that from the voluntary sector, Shelter, the Department for those salaries are paid from the earnings and taxes of Work and Pensions and even the Member of Parliament. hard-working people, perhaps the Minister will look at Gwynedd county council, to its credit, has added how housing associations that pay such salaries could substantially to the fund, with the result that the number themselves contribute to discretionary housing payments. of people in arrears is fairly small at present. 869 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 870
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): In my council housing than many colleagues. Similar to the constituency, some people who originally were successful hon. Gentleman, I too grew up on a council estate, in in getting the hardship fund are being told when they south Manchester, with my mother, father and four reapply that they cannot have it because they are not siblings. It was not big, but it was home. We lived there showing sufficient hardship or because they have not because we needed to and because the state was able to shown that they are doing enough to rebudget. Is the help us find a home that we could fit into and was hon. Gentleman familiar with that experience? This affordable to my hard-working parents. week a constituent told me that they now have to Social housing is there for those in need. Housing choose between heating and eating because they are not needs change as families expand and contract. The needs getting the fund payment. of a family with four children are different to those of a divorced empty-nester. The hon. Gentleman used the Hywel Williams: The hon. Lady makes a telling point example of a council estate where a house is also a and the group in Gwynedd is certainly concerned about home and a place to live. In my personal circumstances, that. It goes to the very heart of the cash-limited nature when my father died 30 years ago and my mother was of the fund, which is something that I objected to when on her own in a three-bedroom house, she moved out the social fund was introduced: it pitted one payment and now lives in a one-bedroom flat, thus releasing that against another, bringing an element of competition to property back to the housing stock. something that should be there to fulfil people’s basic needs, and that is one reason why I object to this policy. Mr MacNeil: How often does the hon. Gentleman I hope there will be no evictions and that the Minister envisage that people should move homes during the will clear up uncertainty about the fund’s future. course of their adult lives? I would also like to hear those on the Labour Front Bench pledge to adopt a “no evictions” policy—the Graham Evans: I cannot really answer that because it subject of my amendment—where they have the power varies so greatly. I have moved several times but I am to do so. Labour’s policy of abolishing the bedroom tax now settled with a family and envisage not moving for a will not come into force until at least 2015, should it win while. It varies due to individual circumstances. the general election. However, Labour is in power in 77 councils, and the Welsh Labour Government have power Chris Ruane: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the to adopt a “no evictions” policy with immediate effect. three great stresses in life are death, divorce and moving If Labour is serious about scrapping the bedroom house, especially if someone is being evicted or forced tax, it should also be serious about preventing the worst out? What effect does he think the bedroom tax will effect it can have on tenants. For me, that is particularly have on the mental health and well-being of people true for the Welsh Government, where the Welsh First forced out of the homes they love? Minister has the power to stop evictions. For example, Labour in Rhondda Cynon Taf voted with Plaid Cymru Graham Evans: The hon. Gentleman raises a very for such a policy. The Scottish National party in Scotland good point and he is right to say that moving house is has pre-eviction procedures, and I understand that Labour one of the most stressful things in life. colleagues in the Scottish Parliament are proposing a In my constituency, a disabled lady who lived in a Bill to bring in a “no evictions” policy—I think they are; three-bedroom property had to sleep in the lounge and possibly they are not. Perhaps they are not sure themselves. was not able to get upstairs. An appropriate home was In the Welsh Assembly, Jeff Cuthbert AM said: found for her with one bedroom on the ground floor “We cannot undo the bedroom tax. We can seek to reduce its and she is very happy. Her old house is now filled by a impact and we are trying”— young family with two children and one on the way. all very laudable. Lesley Griffiths AM said that Moving house is very stressful, but sometimes it is the “there would be a very high cost, not just a financial cost, but also right thing to do. in terms of the quality of life of people in relation to eviction and The debate is a rare of example of when I can use then rehousing.” Karl Marx as a policy template. We can consider the Plaid Cymru’s Jocelyn Davies asked Carwyn Jones, the social housing market using the phrase: First Minister: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his “Will you tell us which social landlords in Wales are also going needs!” to adopt this no-eviction policy?”, That is to say, what people can afford is what they need. and he replied: It is a simple enough concept to support low-income “That is a matter for local authorities to decide. I can well families but, in reality, housing policy has moved far understand the thinking behind the no-eviction policy, but it is for away from it. each local authority to decide how it wishes to approach this inequitable situation.” First, let us consider the ability to pay. Housing With all due respect to the First Minister of Wales, he is benefit payments almost doubled from £11.2 billion to wrong. It is in his power to decide. It is time for those in £23 billion under the previous Government. That is a power in Wales, long on rhetoric and slow to act, to give cost of £900 per household per year. If hon. Members a lead. If he will not give a lead in Wales, might he not ask my constituents whether paying £900 per year to be led by Labour here in Westminster? pay for other people’s rent on top of their own is reasonable, they will get a short response. In fact, if the Government had not taken action—this Government 4.6 pm are prepared to take the tough decisions when Opposition Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): It is a pleasure to Members are intent on driving Britain to economic follow the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), ruin—the cost of social housing would have risen to and I declare at the start that I have more experience of £25 billion in the next financial year. 871 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 872
[Graham Evans] costs of fitting aids and adaptations for disabled tenants who move; the significant additional costs to housing Secondly, let us consider the need element. As I have associations that face increasing rent arrears, re-let times, set out, I understand the importance of social housing rent collection and tenant support costs, and the impact of and why the country needs it. Let me be clear that the lost development capacity, at a time when the Government right type of housing should be available to those who are trying to drive increased supply; and the additional need it. A quarter of a million families are in overcrowded indirect costs to other public services, such as homelessness, accommodation, and 2 million households are on social health, social and advisory services, of coping with the housing waiting lists. In part, that is because of the lowest knock-on effects and consequences of tenants moving housing growth since the 1920s, and that was under a or accumulating debt. All need to be taken into account, Labour leadership. Some who do not need social housing which undermines the Government’s case for savings. insist on remaining, blocking families who have urgent The Government’s amendment mentions need. “the potential beneficial impact of this policy on those living in overcrowded accommodation”. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman It is worth noting the word “potential”. I asked the gave the House some statistics, but will he concede that, Minister to provide figures, or any evidence, to justify unfortunately, many of the vacant properties he describes the claim that there would be a significant “beneficial are in the wrong places for the people who need them? impact”, but he was not able to do so. Graham Evans: There is an element of that in various Government Members have been talking all afternoon communities. In my area, people like to live within their about the private rented sector. It is important to understand own communities. I accept that. The problem is not the difference between sectors, and it is clear that some straightforward, but it is not insurmountable either. people do not. The method for calculating housing People can swap homes within local communities, but I benefit in the private rented sector is local housing agree with the hon. Gentleman that that is a problem. allowance, which is entirely different. It is a fixed allowance The problem is not insurmountable for good local paid depending upon household size and circumstances, housing trusts or local authorities. It might not happen with no reference to the size of home occupied. A overnight, but with a little bit of creative thinking, tenant can choose to use the fixed allowance to under- moves can be accommodated—people can downsize occupy a larger home in a lower value area without any and upsize. reduction in benefit. Rents in the private rented sector are not regulated. It is necessary to impose tighter Mrs McGuire: The hon. Gentleman accepts that the benefit restrictions to curb excessive market rents. Social situation cannot be changed overnight, but does he rents are regulated and are approximately 40% lower. believe it is fair that people should be caught in the trap The private rented sector performs a different role from of having to pay the bedroom tax? He is contradicting the social rented sector, as hon. Members have made his own argument. clear. In general, it provides shorter-term accommodation for younger households. Some 28% of household heads Graham Evans: I am sorry I gave way to the right in the private rented sector are over the age of 44, compared hon. Lady. with 60% in the social sector. That is a significant difference. What is being asked for is a retrospective I want to make one final point. Opposition Members change. have had nothing to say about someone earning £140,000 a year who uses social housing, not least because the The Government’s brutal changes are affecting real person in question is Bob Crow, the leader of the people in my constituency. I spoke to Mrs Knight on National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers. Saturday morning. She has had adaptations throughout the house to ease difficulties that her husband is Unless we reassess ongoing housing needs, we will be experiencing: a walk-in shower, a bio bidet, a wheelchair unable to support those who need it the most. The access door leading outside, hand rails on the doors, a changes need to happen, and it is important that they drop rail in the bathroom, a rail fitted to the bed, raisers happen now, to restore fairness to the social housing on the seat, and a through-floor lift into the bedroom. sector in line with the private sector. They are losing a significant amount of money—£700 a year. They have lived in the house for 29 years and 4.13 pm brought up their family in it. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): There is no doubt that the bedroom tax is a brutal, callous and unfair policy Chris Ruane: My hon. Friend has just given a that affects some of the poorest and most disadvantaged comprehensive list of the improvements made to his people in our communities, not least those who are constituents’ home. If they move to other accommodation, disabled. They have been forced into arrears and further will the council have to pay again to put in those debt, and forced to go to food banks. The policy is facilities again? having a major effect on many people in our communities. I want to address some of the points that Government Derek Twigg: As usual, my hon. Friend makes an Members are using to justify what they are doing, such important point. Of course the council will have to pay as the cost. We do not know whether the cost savings again, and it is significant expenditure. are achievable. Some hon. Members argue that they are What about large families that have split up, where not, but there is a great deal of doubt. For instance, the some of the children stay with their father for three or Government would have to take account of the £65 million four days a week but he has been hit by the bedroom increase in discretionary housing payment budgets that tax? How is that helping families? How does that help has already been set aside for 2013-14; the additional parents to stay in touch with their children? The excuse 873 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 874 given by the Minister at the time was that it would however, social housing should be based on need, not depend on who had responsibility for the children, but expectation for life, and as people start new careers and it is causing problems for families. move on, they should vacate social housing for the What about a single man who has lived in a house all benefit of others in greater need. his life and has recently become unemployed, finding himself having to live on £70-odd a week and trying to Sheila Gilmore rose— find the difference for the bedroom tax? We talk about the discretionary payment system, but they are temporary Bob Blackman: I am not giving way again. payments and finding a job in my area is not easy. The Labour party clearly does not recognise this In response to a question I put to the Prime Minister fundamental change that needs to take place. earlier in the year, he said: Sheila Gilmore rose— “Let me be clear…pensioners are exempt, people with severely disabled children are exempt and people who need round-the-clock Bob Blackman: The hon. Lady can keep popping up care are exempt.”—[Official Report, 6 March 2013; Vol. 559, and down, but I am not giving way. c. 949.] That turned out not to be true and I challenged the The Labour party would hand out £500 million of Leader of the House on it the following day. On the taxpayers’ money while presiding, as it did, over record Monday, the Government dropped their appeal to overturn low levels of housing development. It failed to provide the decision of the Supreme Court on the exclusion of the housing needed during its term of office, and this disabled children. People with a disabled child and two Government are now trying to turn that around after spare bedrooms are hit by the bedroom tax. When many years of neglect. The last Government allowed universal credit comes in, pensioners with one person in social rents to increase, knowing that housing benefit the household under the pension age will be hit by the would pick up the costs for the vast majority of tenants: bedroom tax. Disabled people, unless they have a full-time about 80% of tenants were receiving the maximum or part-time live-in carer, are not exempt. Disabled housing benefit. That is fine while people are fully people whose family members or friends are supporting occupying those properties—they will be in need, because them are not exempt. This is a terrible policy. It needs to they will have been assessed as being in need—but once be changed quickly. they are under-occupying those properties, it becomes right and proper for Governments and councils to say, “It is time for you to move on and for a family who need 4.19 pm that property to move in.” Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): It is an honour Earlier, someone challenged the position in the private to follow the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg), sector. On average, home owners occupy their property who has given a reasoned and reasonable speech, and for seven years before choosing to move on, but of my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham course some people fall on hard times and have to sell Evans), who provided a different perspective. I start their property in a rush or lose everything when they from the principle that it is morally indefensible that lose their job or become disabled. We have to have 1 million families are waiting for a council property and sympathy and ensure supply for those people across the that 250,000 families live in overcrowded accommodation board. In the private rented sector, on the other hand, while at the same time 1 million empty bedrooms are we need longer tenancies, because currently they are allowed in the social rented sector. Anyone who tries to often for six months or less. Clearly, however, we need defend that is extremely foolish. some equalisation between the private and social rented There is a fundamental philosophical difference between sectors. the Opposition and the Government. People in social There are other courses of action that councils can rented accommodation cannot expect to live in the same consider. My own local authority has brought in incentives home for life without any change to their circumstances for people who under-occupy to move out. It will give being recognised. People in social rented accommodation them cash incentives to enable them to buy their own should stay there for a period and then move on and up property or move to a smaller property when their when they can. My mother and father started in council families have moved on. That is the right sort of approach. accommodation and were the first in our family to buy There should be a carrot and stick approach. If someone their own home. Then, during the Thatcher revolution, chooses to under-occupy, they will get less benefit. If the rest of my family were able to acquire their own homes, they choose to occupy a property that they no longer and we became a proper property-owning democracy. need, they should not expect the public sector—the taxpayer—to fund them. Katy Clark: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept, however, that that was not the initial purpose of social Sheila Gilmore: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving housing? The initial reason for social housing and building way. It is hard to know where to start in responding to council houses was not to deal with social need, as he what he is saying. If this were a matter of choice, it and other Government Members have said, but to would be a very different issue. Why is it appropriate to improve the standard of housing in this country? Is that apply a financial stick to people who do not, by definition, not what council and social housing is about? have the financial capacity to move on because they are on benefits? In those circumstances, there is no choice Bob Blackman: During the second world war and the to be made. An amendment was tabled to the Welfare 1950s, there was clearly a need, which was why the Reform Bill which would have resulted in this measure Conservative Government in the 1950s built record applying to people who had been made a reasonable numbers of council properties—to enable people to live offer but refused it. Does the hon. Gentleman regret the in decent accommodation. I agree about that. Clearly, fact that the Government did not accept that amendment? 875 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 876
Bob Blackman: I thank the hon. Lady for her rather when those in charge of education are emphasising the long intervention, which I thought became more of a importance of children having a bedroom in which to speech. We need to be clear that people do have a do their homework, so that they can do well at school. choice. People can choose to under-occupy, and if they so choose, they should not expect the taxpayer to pick Ian Mearns: I have seen an estimate that 375,000 up the cost through housing benefit. There must be a children could be affected by the bedroom tax. Is it the clear incentive for people to move on. Government’s deliberate policy that up to 375,000 children might have to move school because of moving house as Mr MacNeil: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? a result of the bedroom tax, so disrupting their hard-earned education? Bob Blackman: I am not giving way a third time. The Opposition need to accept the principle of the Mr Raynsford: My hon. Friend, along with many change, which is that anyone who under-occupies should other colleagues, has forcefully made the point about bear the cost. All afternoon, we have heard a series of the destructive impact on communities and the impact heartbreaking stories of people being required to move on people who are unfairly forced to move because of from properties that they have lived in for a long time. I the bedroom tax and other measures. have every sympathy with people who have been fed the I have talked about the cruelty of the policy. I shall story that they have a home for life, that they can expect now show that it is unsound and in some respects based to live in it for ever and that the taxpayer will always on a fraudulent premise. That premise is that the bedroom pick up the cost. The reality is that that is the story that tax is about making better use of the social housing Labour has always sold people. stock. This is simply wrong when the supply of smaller That illustrates the difference between the parties. lettings available to those adversely impacted is hopelessly Labour would rather have everyone working for a public inadequate. It is wrong when, according to the Local authority, being dependent on public housing and not Government Association, less than a quarter of those being aspirational. We believe in helping people to hit by the tax have the option of mitigating it by moving achieve their aspirations and get to a decent position. into smaller accommodation. It is clearly wrong when We believe in improving the situation in the private the largest single of group of people known to be sector and enabling people to work and to aspire to under-occupying social housing—notably those who being the best that they can be. That is the difference are over retirement age—are exempt from the tax. between us. We are the party of the hand-up; Labour is I can understand why, politically, the Government do the party of the hand-out. not wish to be seen to penalising elderly people, but they cannot on the one hand claim that these measures 4.27 pm are about achieving better use of the social housing stock and then entirely ignore the largest group of Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): people known to under-occupy accommodation. Recently I draw the House’s attention to my entries in the Register visiting a 91-year-old pensioner living in a four-bedroom of Members’Financial Interests, including the chairmanship property brought that home very clearly to me. The of a social housing provider. council is giving priority for a move locally not to This is a cruel policy, based on an unsound and in people like her, although that would be logical, but to some respects fraudulent premise. It is cruel because it people who are hit by the benefit cut of the bedroom is causing anxiety, fear and misery to large numbers of tax, because it is only right that those people should be people who have done nothing wrong. It is cruel because given priority, to protect them from the tax. We thus get it is deepening poverty and deprivation in an arbitrary these absurd and perverse consequences where the policy and unfair way, and because the large majority of those works against the very objective that it is supposed to who are adversely affected by it can do nothing to achieve. mitigate its impact. We have heard about the other perverse consequence— The policy is also cruel because it conflicts with basic the extent to which the policy is leading not to better human instincts, such as the instinct of a parent to have use of the housing stock, but to increased vacancies their children to come to stay at the weekend if they among larger properties in areas where people simply normally live with a former partner elsewhere. There is cannot afford to occupy and pay the bedroom tax, and also a basic human instinct for a disabled person to to increases in rent arrears, which is not just bad for the have a carer stay overnight from time to time, or to have affected tenants, putting their tenancy at risk, but bad a spare bedroom for medical needs such as dialysis. for the landlords who require rental income to fund increased investment in social housing. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): A constituent of On all the bases, then, on which this policy is being mine is unable to share a bed with his wife due to his promoted, it is not succeeding and it is having perverse painful disability. The bedroom tax will leave his family and damaging consequences. The hard truth is that this £9.52 a week worse off. Does my right hon. Friend agree is not a policy prompted by a desire to make better use that the bedroom tax pays scant regard to the pain that of the country’s social housing stock. If that were it causes? the real intent, pensioners would not be exempt, and the Government would be increasing, not cutting, investment Mr Raynsford: My hon. Friend makes an obvious in new social housing. Indeed, if the impact of the and clear point that illustrates one of the deeply unfair bedroom tax were, miraculously for everyone affected, and cruel impacts of the policy. to find alternative smaller accommodation, the policy The policy runs against basic human nature when would fail because the Department for Work and Pensions teenage children are told that they cannot expect to would be left with a half a billion pound hole in its have a bedroom of their own, particularly at a time budget. 877 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 878
The whole wretched policy emerged not out of an Katy Clark: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? evidence-based study of patterns of occupation, need and mobility in social housing, but out of a crude George Hollingbery: I will, but by doing so I shall cost-cutting imperative that was introduced in total take time away from Opposition speakers. disregard of the human consequences. It is a deeply flawed and cruel policy, based on unsound premises, for Katy Clark: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept which all those who are responsible in the Government that that there is a complete mismatch between the should be ashamed. The sooner this wretched tax is types of homes that are available and what the Government abolished, the better. want people to do? In North Ayrshire, for example, 2,260 council tenants are affected by the policy, but only 4.33 pm 59 tenants in under-occupied properties have been able to move since April. George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): It is an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for George Hollingbery: The point is well made. I entirely Harrow East (Bob Blackman) and the right hon. Member accept that there is indeed a mismatch in many parts of for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), with the country. However, it is not impossible for people to whom I have sparred on a number of occasions on move between local authority areas. That happens in similar issues. the private sector, and there is no good reason why it We need to pose ourselves a question: what is dealing cannot happen in the public sector. Certainly, it is more with the spare room subsidy about? Is it about reducing difficult, but there is no reason why it should not happen. the housing benefit bill? Yes, of course it is. The Government I recently visited a young family in Wickham, which propose a £500 million saving, which is important. Let is in my constituency. The couple had one child and us not delude ourselves, however. We face a structural another on the way. There was one bedroom upstairs, problem with housing: there is too little of it, and what with a small bathroom, a kitchen-sitting room-dining there is of it is too expensive. The only way meaningfully area downstairs, and that was it. The child was living in to reduce the housing benefit bill is to increase the a cot in the sitting room. Just yards away were two and supply of housing hugely—something that we all know three-bedroom homes under-occupied by lifetime tenants. will not happen overnight. It did not happen on the watch of the previous Government, but it is happening Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. at least in part on this Government’s watch. Although I must apologise to the hon. Gentleman. The clock is an important saving is being made, reducing the housing wrong, and I should warn him that he does not have five benefit bill is not the principal thrust of the reductions minutes and four seconds left; he has only four minutes in spare room subsidy. and one second.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) George Hollingbery: Thank you for that warning, (PC): May I take up that point, which is raised in the Madam Deputy Speaker. Government amendment? Notwithstanding the bedroom The situation that I have described cannot be right, tax, the cap on benefit and the annual real-terms reduction either in terms of the use of resources or in terms in the uprating of benefit, the Office for Budget of plain fairness. According to the switching site Responsibility still predicts that the housing benefit bill HomeSwapper, those who have successfully moved as a will rise. This is a failed policy. consequence of these changes often say that their understanding of the unfairness of the situation was a George Hollingbery: What the hon. Gentleman says significant part of their motivation. However, it is also demonstrates that, as I have just pointed out, what we important to note that the potential reduction in housing need is a massive increase in the amount of housing that benefit payments was what made them actually do is built. That was a failure on the part of the last something about it. Government, and it has not been easy for this Government to rectify it during in the current recession. I believe that The unfairness is, of course, only exacerbated by the we are doing a great deal to try to rectify it, but the real rules governing the private rented sector, under which answer is to build a very large number of new houses. only the space that is needed is paid for. That has been That cannot be done in an instant, which is why the referred to at length this afternoon. Presumably, if the housing benefit bill is almost bound to rise in the short principle of ensuring the right number of bedrooms is term. unfair in social housing, it is also unfair in private housing. That point too has already been made. The This is, in my view, a policy about behavioural change motion and about the chronic underuse of publicly owned housing assets. Those who live in social housing have no “calls on the Government to end these deductions with immediate effect”. incentive to downsize, because they have tenancies for life. I understand the motivation behind that: as has I can only imagine that the Opposition will propose already been pointed out today, these are not just similar changes in the private sector, as the same principle tenancies, but homes. However, the position is not applies. If so, how much will it cost, and if not, why not? sustainable given such a limited supply of stock. The It is clear that the Opposition’s thinking on this Government have, of course, taken action to end tenancies matter has been, to say the least, inconsistent. In 2011, I for life, but that will take a very long time to feed was a member of the Committee that considered the through the system. Meanwhile, there are vast numbers Bill that became the Welfare Reform Act 2012. We had of people on housing waiting lists and large numbers a long discussion, and a number of amendments were living in overcrowded homes, while 1 million or more tabled to clause 68, which established the principle of dwellings have an extra bedroom. That cannot be right. the spare room subsidy reduction. All the points that 879 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 880
[George Hollingbery] Members’ contributions to this debate, which stand in stark contrast to some of the drivel we heard from the were made were salient, the amendments—most of Government Benches, much of which showed a lack of which were tabled by the hon. Member for Westminster understanding of and basic research into how this North (Ms Buck), who is no longer in the Chamber—were policy is being delivered on the ground. perfectly sensible, and, in large part, the Government One example of that was in the contribution of the have introduced provisions to deal with them. Interestingly, hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who said however, no Division was called on a stand part motion, people should simply work an extra three hours a week and no attempt was made to remove the clause on to pay for this. If she knew the policy, she would be Report. I am a novice in these matters, but my interpretation aware that those in work and receiving housing benefit of what happened is that the Opposition accepted the who work an extra three hours a week will lose 85% of principle. If that is not the case, I should like to hear that extra income to pay for their rent and council tax. why it is not. Therefore they would still have to pay the bedroom tax. The Opposition’s difficulty with welfare reform as a I am the MP for Manchester Central and my whole is clear. Recently, the hon. Member for Westminster constituency has the highest number of people affected North, who very ably took large parts of the Welfare by the bedroom tax in the country—over 4,000. That is Reform Bill through Committee, including clause 68, not just a number; it is people struggling desperately as was reported as saying that the Opposition had not won a result of this unjust policy. the public debate on welfare, and it appears that she is right. Ipsos MORI carried out a survey of 2,000 people I have three main criticisms of this policy, and they in late August this year from which it concluded that: build on the points made by my right hon. Friend the “By a margin of 3 to 1, the majority of the British public Member for Greenwich and Woolwich: it is a morally believe that the benefits system in Britain is too generous.” wrong and corrupt policy; it costs more than it saves; and it does not even work. By any measure, that is a Interestingly, it also revealed that the public broadly pretty damning indictment of a policy. supported the Government’s position on the spare room subsidy. It is morally wrong because it is such a blunt instrument Back in April, Peter Watt, former general secretary of and it is punishing all sorts of vulnerable people who the Labour party, wrote on the “Labour Uncut” website: have done nothing wrong. We have heard many examples from colleagues, charting the human cost of this disastrous “I don’t know what Labour’s position on welfare reform is”, policy. I want to highlight one other. and added, Elizabeth has a very disabled son, Ryan. Their case “Labour has in the past also talked tough on welfare and that it has been highlighted by the Manchester Evening News would like to reduce welfare bills. The problem is that it is and the Daily Mirror, both of which have been running currently fighting a battle in which it is opposing the government’s excellent campaigns against the bedroom tax. Ryan is a attempts to achieve this. So Labour appears confused.” disabled adult and requires around-the-clock care, including Today, in this motion, we see yet another example of overnight care. He is not excluded from the bedroom this confusion. tax policy, however, because he is not the tenant of the It must be right, at a time of acute overcrowding property. Therefore, they are subject to the bedroom co-existing with a great deal of under-occupancy in the tax. After many weeks and months of anxious worrying, social housing sector, for the Government to take action Elizabeth finally, after my intervention, was awarded to encourage change. A broad policy of this sort will the discretionary housing money. However, this does inevitably throw up real-life difficulties when applied in not take away from the fact that she is not sure what is the particular, but the Government have been very going to happen next year or the year after that. That is careful to deal with as many of them as possible and the kind of anxiety people are facing. On the discretionary have made many exceptions to the general rule. They housing payment, I am delighted that the Minister has have also made substantial amounts of money available today said that if more claimants qualify but the £1.9 million through discretionary housing payment to ease the that Manchester city council has received is not enough, transition for those who are affected. the Government will guarantee those payments. Furthermore, evidence shows that over 10% of those This policy also costs more than it saves, as is highlighted who have been affected by the change so far have come by the case of my constituent, Alan. He is in his late-50s off benefits entirely, which must surely be welcomed by and he has worked for most of his life. He lives in a all. Change of this sort is never easy to implement, but two-bedroom property because no one-bedroom properties that does not mean it is not fair in principle and that it is were available for him. He was made redundant and is not necessary. In this case, it is both, and I will certainly now on benefits of £71.70 a fortnight. His social housing vote for the Government’s amendment this evening. costs £60 a week and he has been asked to pay the bedroom tax out of that money. If he wants to move to the private sector, which is the only real option for him, 4.41 pm that will cost him at least £100 a week in rent, which the Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op): It is housing benefit bill will have to pay. So that is going to an honour to follow the hon. Member for Meon Valley take costs up, not down. (George Hollingbery) and my right hon. Friend the The final point I wish to make is that this policy does Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), not even work. Many Government Members have talked who made an excellent contribution. about how it deals with overcrowding and people on the I am pleased to be called to speak in this debate and I housing waiting list. In Manchester, 19,000 people are am proud that the Labour party now has a commitment on that list and that figure has not moved one jot since to axing this appalling policy. I am proud of Opposition this policy was introduced, because all the slack of 881 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 882 available property is being taken up by people doing the reforms had a much wider moral purpose: to make housing swaps. The only properties becoming available work pay, to end the something for nothing culture, to are two-bedroom properties in blocks of flats, which are ensure a strong safety net for those who cannot work unsuitable for families with children. So those properties and, in the case of the reforms to housing benefit, to are going to people in band 5—people who are not most reduce overcrowding and homelessness. in need. Those who are most in need are being pushed further and further down the waiting list. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The hon. Lady is talking as though the only people in social housing are Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ those on benefit or not working. It is an in-work benefit. Co-op): My hon. Friend is making a strong speech, in More importantly, many people in this country who which she mentioned families with children. Did she work for the minimum wage and work very hard will share my shock at Lord Freud’s comment that families never be able to afford to purchase a property. That is who are separated should get a sofa bed to deal with the why we have social housing and why we have homes for problem of being hit by the bedroom tax? Was that not life for those people. a shocking thing to say about the situation of families in this country? Margot James: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention and I agree with much of the principle Lucy Powell: It was a shocking thing to say. It showed behind it. Of course, some people will never be able to a complete failure to understand what family life is like afford to buy their own homes—although this Government and to understand that many fathers—I thought the are intent on helping as many people as possible to own Conservatives claimed to be the party of the fathers—have their own homes—and that is the purpose of social contact with their children only if they have a spare housing and housing benefit. There is no argument with bedroom for them to stay in, so they will be losing that that principle, but we must be cognisant of the number contact. That is a disgraceful aspect of this policy. of people who, at the moment, cannot even get council Perhaps if the Government had done a little more housing or privately rented social housing. That is one research, analysis and modelling before introducing this of the driving purposes behind the reform. proposal, they might have foreseen some of these knock-on The subsidy has become something of a totemic issue consequences. Labour Members are all for looking at for the Opposition. They want to position the end of how we can deal with some of the issues relating to the subsidy and the creation of a level playing field under-occupancy and housing shortage, but this sort of between all recipients of social housing support as a brutal, blunt instrument does nothing to address that—in modern day poll tax. Whatever the merits or otherwise fact, it does quite the opposite. We need a long-term of different systems of raising taxes locally, there is no strategy bringing together the housing associations, other doubt that the poll tax lacked public support. That is policy makers and tenants to work out how we can best the difference, and it is worth exploring why the policy use a carrot and stick approach to deal with under- we are debating today enjoys public support. occupancy. What we have from this Government is a The MORI poll that my hon. Friend the Member for morally corrupt policy that does not work and is going Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) mentioned found to cost the taxpayer even more. that 78% of respondents supported the need to reduce under-occupation and overcrowding in social housing, 4.47 pm whereas 54% of them agreed that people of working age who live in social housing should receive less housing Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): In debating today’s benefit if they have more bedrooms than they need. motion, it is instructive to look back at the manifesto Some 60% of those polled believed that those affected on which Labour Members stood at the last election. should seek work or work longer hours if they could. They talked about the need for “tough choices on welfare” and stated: Emily Thornberry: The hon. Lady drew a parallel “No one fit for work should be abandoned to a life on benefit, between the bedroom tax and the poll tax, and said that so all those who can work will be required to do so.” the difference between the two was that the poll tax was They also promised reforms to housing benefit so that not popular. Does she therefore accept that the bedroom the state does not subsidise people to live on rents that tax is a tax? working families could not afford. As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Margot James: I certainly do not. It is not a tax. A Yardley (John Hemming), when they were in government tax is a Government levy on somebody’s income, whereas they intended to introduce the very same measure. So we are clearly talking about reducing a subsidy. what happened? Let me return to the subject of work. Many groups Labour has reverted to type, defending those who are are exempt from the measure, including people in receipt getting more than their fair share out of the system, to of state pensions, families with disabled children, foster the detriment of hundreds of thousands of others who carers and other groups. Those who are in a position to are worse off through no fault of their own. They seek work or extra work should either do so or try include the 6,687 households on my local authority of to swap their property for accommodation that meets Dudley’s housing waiting list. That is why Labour has rather than exceeds their needs. If their accommodation opposed every single measure this Government have exceeds their needs, that is not a tenable or fair position taken to reform the welfare state. for the long term. We are talking about only a few extra The public know that the catalyst for the reforms we hours of work a week at the minimum wage. Instead of have introduced was the ballooning deficit left to us by conducting a campaign of misinformation against the the previous Government. The overriding mission behind reforms to housing benefit—reforms that Labour accepted 883 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 884
[Margot James] Steve Rotheram: My hon. Friend is right. In areas such as Liverpool and other major UK cities, rent arrears were necessary at the last election—local authorities have increased dramatically, which means that housing should instead be helping people to downsize to associations have to find a way to combat the decrease accommodation that meets their needs, freeing up much- in income while, at the same time, they are expected to needed housing stock for the 2 million families on commit to building more one and two-bedroom houses. housing waiting lists. That has the potential to affect their asset base and their I commend the Government for taking the tough ability to borrow money to build those houses. decisions and, moreover, for their commitment to build Secondly—again, colleagues have mentioned this—this 170,000 new social houses by 2015. In addition to this is a policy that will cost the Exchequer more than any measure, that will help to ease overcrowding in many potential savings. On Merseyside, housing demand is homes. I also hope that the Government will take a lead inversely proportionate to supply. As a consequence of in encouraging housing associations and local authorities not having enough of the right housing type it is virtually to convert some of the excess of large properties at their impossible for people caught in the bedroom tax trap to disposal so that we can begin to meet the needs of the move into suitable social housing, so they are forced to 60% or so of people applying for social housing for consider renting in the private sector, even if that costs single occupancy. I hear far more complaints from more than staying in their existing property and even if constituents who endure overcrowded accommodation no one wants to move into the house that they are than I do about ending this spare-room subsidy. I find kicked out of. It is the economics of the madhouse, and the contents of my postbag quite instructive in that it is our neighbourhoods that are suffering, decimated regard, so I shall support the Government amendment. by a reckless and irresponsible Government inflicting poverty, creating urban blight and breaking up established 4.55 pm communities. They are carrying out Thatcher’s legacy Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): In the by causing instability that destroys the very fabric of lead up to the 2010 general election and in a desperate society on which established communities are built. attempt to detoxify the brand, two words were bandied My final area of contention is the social engineering about to persuade the electorate that there would be a that this Government are imposing on the poorest different kind of Tory if the Conservatives were elected. areas. Moving house may mean kids moving school, as Those two words were “compassionate conservatism”, has been mentioned, but it is also about families moving whatever that is. Wolves in sheep’s clothing—that is doctor and dentist, and mothers and older children who what I call it. No one standing on a Tory ticket in the used to live within walking distance having to travel next general election should be in any doubt whatsoever many miles to see each other. Many families have been that once again it will be two words that will define their forced out of the homes that were theirs for many heartless brand of ideological politics—“bedroom tax”. decades. If they had been paying a mortgage instead of What happened to the Prime Minister’s mantra that rent, which they could have done, they would have we are all in this together? What happened to the owned the property outright by now. For many they are Chancellor’s claim that he would not balance the Budget homes, not houses. Hard-working families have been on the backs of ordinary people? Whatever happened penalised simply because they could not afford a deposit. to big society? Almost two thirds of those affected by Surely that is not what is meant by “compassionate the bedroom tax in my part of the world are disabled—that conservatism”—an oxymoron that will be consigned to is 21,000 people hit the hardest while millionaires get the annals of political history alongside “Lib Dem tens of thousands of pounds every year in a Tory tax principles”. bung. Before the inevitable accusations of being feckless Be in no doubt that the overwhelming majority of the or unemployable are levelled against any of my constituents British people will not support a policy that punishes by Members such as the hon. Member for Monmouth the poorest, the disabled, our armed forces, those riddled (David T. C. Davies), whose rant should be videoed and with cancer, the suicidal, the frail and the vulnerable. As played to anyone who doubts that it is the same old the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James) alluded Tories, let me point out that 6,000 people on Merseyside to, this is the Tory poll tax of the 21st century. To think who are now in rental arrears had never missed a that this policy is a vote winner is severely to underestimate payment in their life until the coalition’s welfare changes. the compassion of the British people. I will always put The majority of those clobbered by this Con-Dem con my trust in the real people outside this place, rather trick are ordinary working people on low wages. This is than in a bunch of born-to-rule Tories who have no entirely a Tory and Lib Dem-manufactured hardship concept of what ordinary people have to contend with imposed on those who need help the most, driven not on a daily basis, and a Lib Dem party that has long by fiscal constraints but by political dogma. since sold its soul. I want to concentrate on three consequential areas of this policy. First, the Government have not given sufficient regard to the impact that it has already had on housing 5.1 pm associations. Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I was Ian Mearns: My hon. Friend is right that there is a getting flashbacks to 1970s socialism during that significant impact on housing associations. The Home contribution—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Group, a large housing association that has many properties Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) is very proud of in my borough of Gateshead and thousands of properties that; that is good to hear. across the north of England, has seen a 53% increase in It is said that a lie can be halfway round the world arrears in the past 12 months, mainly as a result of the before the truth has got its boots on, and such is the bedroom tax. case with Labour’s bedroom tax. I am pleased that the 885 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 886 name of the debate has changed, and I welcome the Labour departed office we had a debt of more than chance to clarify the details of the policy. I am sorry three quarters of a trillion pounds. Where are these that the debate has been somewhat binary. Some good benefits that Opposition Members endorse? Where will points have been made by Members on both sides and that money come from? To date, Labour has refused to some pertinent questions have been asked. The hon. support a single reform to the benefit system put forward Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) posed a by the Government. Aside from failing to recognise, very important one: how does somebody who is told to first, the need for reform of our complex system, and go out and work in order to pay for that second room secondly, the consequences to society in promoting a manage to do that? I hope the Minister will elaborate something-for-nothing culture, Labour has voted against on this, but the universal tax credit system will come in £83 billion-worth of welfare savings introduced by the to address that. Government, proving that it has yet to learn the lessons The debate has illustrated the cultural divide that of the past. exists between this Government and Labour. On one Labour owes the taxpayer an explanation as to how it side there is an attitude of responsibility and holding would afford to keep its complex, costly and broken welfare reform to account, and on the other there is a benefit system in place. The challenge is simple. Thanks continuing concept of offering welfare as a lifestyle to the housing shortage, created under Labour, some choice. That is no longer possible. After 13 years of 400,000 people are in overcrowded housing. Yet there Labour the cost of housing benefit doubled to £21 billion. are almost 1 million spare rooms throughout the UK That is unacceptable. The cost to taxpayers was £900 paid for by the taxpayer at a cost of around £0.5 billion per household. The system was getting out of control. a year. This policy better matches our housing stock, There was no house building programme, leading to but also protects the most vulnerable, such as pensioners, overcrowded accommodation, and there was no those in foster care, disabled children and those requiring management of the housing stock, which left some overnight care. They are all exempt, as indeed are those families receiving housing benefit of more than £100,000. who have served in the armed forces. Those affected by the policy, as others have made Katy Clark: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept clear, who are living in larger than necessary housing that the reason that housing benefit has gone up is the have four choices. First, they can participate in a house rising cost of rent in the private sector? Does he not swap scheme, which has not really been embraced by all accept that this Government’s policy of trying to force councils. Secondly, they can pay the reduction in housing house prices up is putting rents up, which will make the benefit, which equates to about £14 a week for a room. housing benefit problem even worse? Thirdly, they can sub-let that room. Finally, they could apply for the hardship scheme, and a couple examples Mr Ellwood: The hon. Lady makes an important have been given of that. I am pleased to hear the point. I cannot accept that a doubling of housing announcement today that if councils run out of that benefit to £21 billion is accounted for by the private hardship funding, they can apply for more. That is a sector alone. There are other aspects, such as the type of message that needs to be sent from both sides of the housing we are building. We were building the wrong House, to ensure that councils do not run out of this type of houses—60% of new houses built needed to be important support. for single occupancy, but only 30% were. That is Labour’s legacy. It raises the fundamental question of today’s The policy already exists in the private sector, introduced, debate: in these financially tough times, should those on as I say, by Labour in 2008. I welcome this policy and housing benefit be allowed to stay in accommodation the debate, which I hope will help Labour Members to with more bedrooms than they really need? This recognise how inaccurate and misleading some of their Government say no and Labour says yes, even though it comments have been. I am pleased that the hon. Member said no in 2008 when we had exactly the same debate on for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) is in her place. I private sector housing, proving that a little inaccuracy have a lot of respect for her, but she spoke eloquently sometimes saves a tonne of explanation. about a council home being a home for life. I cannot agree with that analysis. A council home should be Mrs McGuire: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? there as a method of support for those trying to get on in life and for those in a difficult period of their life. It Mr Ellwood: Very briefly; we are eating into other should not just be given to somebody as a gift, early on Members’ time. in their lives, never to move away from. That is the distinct difference between the two sides of the House, Mrs McGuire: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman on which we will have to agree to disagree. was in the Chamber for the earlier clarification, given I welcome the policy and the debate, and I look by my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North forward to the Minister clarifying some of the many (Ms Buck), that the local housing allowance was not points that have been made by Members on both sides retrospective. This tax is retrospective and it penalises of the Chamber. people for not changing their circumstances. 5.9 pm Mr Ellwood: I welcome the hon. Lady to the debate. It is clear that Labour still has not learned from its Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- mistakes. In the last eight years of government, Labour op): I rise to speak on behalf of approximately 2,000 lived beyond its means. In 2002-03, it spent £26 billion people in my constituency who are affected by this beyond its means. Four years later that rose to £33 billion. iniquitous and cruel bedroom tax. I have listened to the In its final year of office, the deficit rose to £156 billion. That whole debate, and if anything shows the dividing line always accumulates, which means that by 2010 when between Government and Opposition Members, surely 887 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 888
[Cathy Jamieson] 5.13 pm it is this issue. My constituents watching this debate in John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I feel the hope that the Government will be persuaded to slightly unhappy about being told that I am out of change tack and admit that they have got this wrong touch. Yes, I was a millionaire by the age of 27, but I will be horrified at just how out of touch Government was on benefits in 1981 and both of my parents were Members appear to be: not only do they not understand born in Birmingham council houses, so I understand their own policy, but they simply do not understand the the importance of social housing and that there is a impact it will have or how housing benefit works. The value in security of tenure. I find it rather sad when, as notion that people can simply go out and get extra has happened in Birmingham, people are evicted from hours of work to pay for the bedroom tax, or deal with their family houses for under-occupying, perhaps because the reduction in working tax credits or the fact that their parents have died. That is sad. However, we find wages are not rising, shows just how out of touch the ourselves in a society with problems. A lot of families Government are. live in overcrowded conditions. Those people come to see me and I cannot just ignore them. It is not a The Government are also out of touch because they bedroom tax; it is a bedroom rent. People are paying appear to have no idea of the circumstances in which rent for the spare bedroom. If somebody buys a house ordinary people live. Listening to Government Members, and it has an extra bedroom, they pay for it. If somebody one might think there was a swathe of empty rooms rents a property, they pay the rent for the property. If across the whole UK, but my constituents who have they have a property in the private sector and they are come to speak to me about the bedroom tax are the on housing benefit, the local housing allowance sets grannies who help with the child care and often have the limits based on the number of bedrooms. kids at the weekend—[Interruption.] Someone says, On 19 January 2004, a Labour Minister said: “Pensioners.” It might have escaped the Government’s notice, but not all grannies are pensioners yet. My younger “We hope to implement a flat rate housing benefit system in sister is a granny, but I am not at that stage quite yet. the social sector, similar to that anticipated in the private rented sector to enable people in that sector to benefit from the choice There are also the kinship carers, who are not covered and flexibility that the reforms can provide. We aim to extend our in the way foster carers are, particularly those who reforms to the social rented sector as soon as rent restructuring provide informal care in families that are having difficulties. and increased choice have created an improved market.”—[Official There are also people trying to do the best they can to Report, 19 January 2004; Vol. 416, c. 1075W.] bring up their families after relationships break down. ThatisinHansard; anyone can get hold of it. One of the cruellest things about this policy is the fact that the needs of children do not appear to have been Several hon. Members rose— taken into account at any level whatsoever. How can we say to a child who has been used to living with their John Hemming: When I am down to two minutes, I mother but going to stay with their father at weekends will take interventions. or during the holidays, “You’re no longer entitled to sleep in a proper bed when you visit.” That is the result The Labour party in government recognised that of this iniquitous bedroom tax. I wrote to Ministers there was a problem with pressure on housing. We about that and received a response that seemed completely cannot suddenly magic up 1 million more rooms overnight. out of touch with the way families make those The reason there was not a lot of pain when the local arrangements. It is also unacceptable, in my view, simply housing allowance was introduced is that it did not to suggest that families should take in lodgers. Would affect anyone who was already on housing benefit; it Government Members be happy to do that in their only affected new claims. The hon. Member for Westminster family homes? North (Ms Buck) was very good on that point. To be fair, if we applied the same approach now, or had done I do not have time to talk about all the issues, but I so back in April, so that this did not affect anyone until want to point out the problems for disabled people. they got a new tenancy, nobody would really bother Many disabled people in my constituency took the about it. The problem with that is that we have a deficit. homes offered to them by the council, even if they were [Interruption.] Labour Members seem to forget the not ideal or in the areas they wanted, because they were deficit, but we need to deal with these issues. However, on the ground floor and could be adapted for their we have found £180 million of the £500 million savings, needs. It makes no sense at all to take them out of a two so for over a third of people this need have no effect. To or three-bedroom flat that has been perfectly well adapted get my support, the Government will have to deliver and move them to an area where they will not necessarily more on discretionary housing payments, because that have the same care and support systems in place simply is the area I am concerned about. because that is what this Government believe is the right way to go about things. It does not make economic Mrs McGuire: Let me deal with the consultation sense, and it makes no sense with regard to communities document. I shall quote from Hansard: or the provision of social care. “Yes, it was in the consultation document, but we listened to As I said at the outset, I think that there is a clear the consultation responses and recognised that it would be dividing line here. Some hon. Friends have said that inappropriate to roll it into the social housing sector.”––[Official there is no longer any compassionate conservatism, but Report, Welfare Reform Public Bill Committee, 2 November 2006; I am not sure that there ever was. If anything, this c. 453.] debate shows that the Government are out of touch and That was the response of the Minister in the debates on have no ideas how to solve the problems, and this the Welfare Reform Bill to which the hon. Gentleman is afternoon they have certainly shown that they simply referring. The reason I know it was said and can confirm do not care. it is that I said it. 889 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 890
John Hemming: It was an idea that the Opposition for single occupancy, so some people will always be produced when in government because they recognised penalised by the bedroom tax. There is no solution on there was a problem. [Interruption.] I quoted precisely; the island to this policy from Westminster and this I do not know what else was said in the debate. Government. Because of the situation with the bedroom rent, three tenants in my constituency have found a way in which Katy Clark: Does the hon. Gentleman support Scottish they can all three exchange properties so that no bedroom Labour’s proposed Bill in the Scottish Parliament that rent is paid, an overcrowded family has found somewhere says that there should be no evictions and that the comfortable to live, and everybody is happy. The problem Scottish Government should provide full funding to is that the council is saying that one of the doors in one Scottish councils for the costs of the bedroom tax? of the properties is a bit distorted, so the transfer cannot happen. That is complete nonsense. It is like the nonsense of saying that someone cannot move if there Mr MacNeil: The hon. Lady should know that the are housing arrears. We had a case like that in Birmingham underlying problem is that Scotland has a Government before the bedroom rent was introduced. People knew who does not elect. If the hon. Lady joined me, we beforehand that it was coming in, so they planned for it would not be in this situation in the first place. and arranged transfers to avoid it. We had a case when someone was told they could not move because they Fiona O’Donnell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? were arrears, and we managed to sort that out. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun Mr MacNeil: No. I have given way once, but I might (Cathy Jamieson) asked about people with children in give way again later. the house accepting lodgers. I have had children for many years, and we have had lodgers. We even had four Importantly, the number of those on the islands who refugees from Croatia as lodgers. There was a slight problem are suffering from the bedroom tax can vary throughout one day when one lodger used the milk and found that the year as a result of seasonal work. Some people need it had been expressed for the baby the previous night—that to move house every six months due to the seasonal was a bit of a surprise for the lodger—but we got on nature of employment. To those who say that they with it. should move to other islands, I say that the reality in the Hebrides has always been difficult. Indeed, I was 17 years Lodgers are not necessarily strangers. There are four old before I first crossed the sound of Barra to South options. The fact is that the Government have changed Uist. In fact, I spent two years in school in Lewis before the rules so that people keep the first £20. If a single I went to South Uist. Communities are distinct and far man who lives in a three-bedroom flat takes in two away from each other. Therefore, a move would be lodgers—I deal with such real cases—they can end up socially isolating for people initially, and of course they £40 a week better off and without any bedroom rent. would lose whatever employment they had on the original That would be far better for them financially than their island that they lived on. current position. Those arguments need to be put to people so that they can best decide whether they should To answer that bureaucratic problem by building move in order to get the discretionary housing payment. houses would definitely be inefficient, because the needs I emphasise again that I want to maintain the discretionary and variations of people’s lives change all the time. In housing payment, which deals with the issues. fact, the bigger the house, the better in many ways, except for the bureaucratic problem that is being created here. 5.20 pm I will give an example of the difficulties involved in Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) moving from place to place on the islands. I once flew to (SNP): I am not sure how many lodgers the hon. Member Stornoway and beside me on the plane was Michael for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) keeps, but MacKinnon, an elderly gentleman from the island of he certainly seems to be in favour of the principle. The Vatersay who has since sadly passed on. He was travelling lodgers in his house no doubt put him in a better to a hospital appointment and I asked him by way of financial position. conversation—in Gaelic, of course—when he had last I do not plan to detain the House for long. When the been to Stornoway. He said it was his first time and, had bedroom tax is viewed in an island context, it can be it not been for his hospital appointment, he would have seen for what it really is: an attack on the living standards been very much looking forward to it. I was surprised. of the poorest. On an island, the poorest can be almost Michael was a well-travelled merchant seaman. I said to anyone’s neighbours, friends or relatives. In the social him, “I suppose you’ve been all over the world, Michael.” rented sector in my constituency, fuel poverty is between “Yes,” he said, “I’ve been to Pitcairn island in the 33% and 61%, depending on how it is measured and middle of the Pacific 13 times, but not to the other end counted. of the Hebrides.” One thing I can say for Pitcairn island On the island perspective, I am grateful to John is that it does not have the bedroom tax, although Maciver of the social housing landlords’ Hebridean perhaps the Government might want some of my islanders Housing Partnership for supplying me with figures. In to move there. Na h-Eileanan an Iar, 188 people are affected by the That is an illustration of how the bedroom tax can bedroom tax and there are more than 2,000 properties. affect local people in the Hebrides. It does not and On one island, the Hebridean Housing Partnership cannot work. It penalises the poorest and those in our took over the housing stock from the council a number society who circulate money the fastest. Some people of years ago, and of the 105 properties, 50% are occupied have wealth, while others have the cash flow and they by single people, but only 20% of the stock is designed have it by necessity. 891 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 892
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ is far lower. To those who are still begrudgers I say, Co-op): Does the hon. Gentleman accept that one “Look at the wealth disparity in the United Kingdom, solution to the problem would be to offer Scotland the the fourth most unequal country in the OECD, where same opportunity as Northern Ireland to exempt all sadly the super-rich are getting richer.” That is where existing tenants from the bedroom tax? I understand his the real societal flaws are. unwillingness to accept the principle of the bedroom I have known the father of the Chief Secretary to the tax, but if parties in Northern Ireland can agree to that, Treasury, Mr Di Alexander, for 10 or 15 years, and he surely those in Scotland could agree to provide such has worked in social housing. He is, of course, very assistance to our constituents. proud of his son, but he has stuck to his principles. I strongly admire what he has said about the bedroom Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman should know that tax, which was absolutely spot-on. If we listen to anybody welfare is devolved in Northern Ireland, but I am glad on or connected to the Government Benches, it should that he supports the principle of devolving welfare to be Mr Di Alexander. Scotland. In fact, we can devolve everything to Scotland by voting yes on 18 September next year. 5.28 pm The chairman of the US Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, once said that the best form of quantitative easing for Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I previously opposed this Japan about 10 or 20 years ago, when it was going policy not because I think we should necessarily pay through its economic travails, would be to pile cash in a money for spare bedrooms, but because the consequences helicopter and shovel it from above over any Japanese that we have heard about today were highly predictable, city, down on the citizens below. What is happening at and I shall speak about some of them. It is no wonder the moment is the opposite of that because the Government that we have a crisis in rents and social housing availability are taking money from those who circulate it in the when 421,000 social houses were lost under the Labour economy. The quickest way to stimulate demand in the Government—a truly shameful record. economy is to put money people into people’s hands; We have also heard about the different effects of the the Government are taking money out of their hands. policy in different parts of the country, and I find myself The money that people are losing would quickly end identifying most with the hon. Member for Liverpool, up in the hands of small businesses, yet in Scotland West Derby (Stephen Twigg), given the characteristics alone, £54.5 million has been taken out this year. Trickle- of my constituency. Social housing is in reasonably down economics never worked, but hoover-up economics plentiful supply and regeneration is required in many certainly does work. Quantitative easing in this country areas, but we are now getting housing blight because of has been a welfare subsidy of epic proportions to bankers the availability of three-bedroom houses that people do and those who are already rich, yet this afternoon we not want to take. Previously, smaller family units were are discussing how to take even more money from those put into those houses, but people will not take them now. who can ill afford it. As most hon. Members have said, there is a suitability There are further complications with the bedroom of stock problem. My constituency made the front page tax. Discretionary housing payments have two important of the newspapers after a calculation that said it would take conditions. People cannot claim retrospectively and must 37 years to make available one-bedroom accommodation apply for a housing transfer, but many people in my to all those who need it. island constituency feel that is dishonest and do not want to do it for the simple reason that they do not Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) want to move house. They also know that they might be (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is making some interesting moved to another island if the policy was to go through points. I recognise that situation in Newcastle. Given to its ultimate logical possibility. Of those 188 people in that Government policy is punishing people for a the Hebrides, only 80 or 90 have so far claimed discretionary problem—the stock available—not of their making, housing payments. Hebridean Housing Partnership is will he vote with the Opposition? in rent arrears, and more worryingly, 20 people have not engaged with, responded to or acknowledged the process Ian Swales: I worry that housing policy tends to be at all. They are reckoned to have drink, drugs of mental dictated from inside the M25. It becomes less appropriate health problems, and ultimately the tax could end up the further away from the M25 that we go. further destabilising their lives. At the very least—I My constituency has a discretionary housing payments make this plea to the Department for Work and Pensions problem. The last figures that I have seen show that —we should allow retrospective claims. Some people there were 1,307 applications, but that only 358 awards are currently trying their best to manage, but I feel that were made. That happened because the money ran out, they may fail in their attempts and need support. That not because the applications were inappropriate. support should be retrospective. We also have a one-size-fits-all penalty in the calculation Further complications are added by seasonal work, for the amount of the spare room subsidy. In my and the small amount that people earn from jobseeker’s constituency, the cost of an extra bedroom is about £7, allowance while having to pay for essentials such as but people are penalised by about £11. Therefore, people food and big annual demands such as the TV licence. who should move from a three-bedroom property to a Losing £10 from 70-odd quid a week is quite a lot and a two-bedroom property get less housing benefit than huge hindrance in life. they would get if they were in a two-bedroom house, Some people watching this debate probably begrudge which is deeply immoral. what other people have, but they should look to countries Like many hon. Members, I have campaigned on such as Norway and Denmark where the unemployed various issues. I am pleased to welcome the Government’s do far better, society is far healthier and unemployment concessions on foster parents, serving military personnel 893 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 894 and disabled children. I also welcome the trebling of I welcome the continued commitment to review the discretionary housing payments, but there is a lot of policy, as it does need continual review. Despite the unfinished business. The hon. Member for Aberdeen views that I have expressed in my speech, it is hard to South (Dame Anne Begg), the Chair of the Work and welcome the hypocrisy evident from the Labour party Pensions Committee, made some good points. I would on this issue. I look forward to the Minister’s response. make a plea for the exemption of disabled adults. Children are exempt when they need separate bedrooms for medical Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to disappoint the reasons. Let us do that for adults, instead of making House, but speeches have tended to be at the limit, with people go through the demeaning process of applying. lots of interventions taken. I have to reduce the time In my local council, people have to apply every quarter, limit with immediate effect to four minutes, otherwise and the application form is deeply intrusive. colleagues will not get in. People do not have to take the As the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Heather full time, but they can. Wheeler) has said, many people are perfectly willing to move to right-size accommodation, but it simply does 5.35 pm not exist anywhere in their area. In the north of England, Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): we have a shortage of one-bedroom accommodation. Dumfries and Galloway council does not have any In fact, some one-bedroom accommodation is being housing, so in my constituency we depend on three or demolished in my constituency. four registered social landlords. The two biggest social landlords are Dumfries and Galloway Housing Partnership Steve Webb: My hon. Friend is making a thoughtful and Loreburn Housing Association. Opposition Members speech. I assume that he has a Labour-run local authority. have been good enough to explain the human consequences If it has told him that the money for discretionary of this measure: its impact on disabled people and their housing payments has run out, will he ask it why it has carers, and on the access fathers from broken relationships not applied for our additional funding? It appears not have to their children. While foster carers have been to have done so. supported, kinship carers have not. For single homeless people in my area, the situation has become very difficult Ian Swales: I thank the Minister for that response. indeed, as no one-bedroom properties are available. I His announcement of that extra funding is the first I also have to say, in case it has passed people by, that the have heard of it. I will ask my local authority why it has cost of moving home for the poorest in society comes at not applied. a price that many cannot afford to pay. We need to recognise that some people simply cannot I have two or three points I would like to raise with afford right-size accommodation and that it does not the Minister. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member exist in their area. The Government should seriously for Halton (Derek Twigg), who laid out how the local consider a policy of treating those people as willing but housing allowance came into being. The big difference unable to move and give them concessions in the system. between what has gone before and what we are faced In my area, there have been some helpful consequences. with is the simple fact that when this legislation came I have been thanked by a number of families who have into effect people were trapped—they had nowhere to managed, owing to the policy, to get a bigger house in turn. The idea that 1 million empty bedrooms and the area where they want to live. One social housing 250,000 overcrowded households could all of a sudden provider I met was surprised by the number of large be put right is totally wrong. Last year, my Tory-run families moving into their houses from overcrowded council wrote to the coalition Government to tell them private rented accommodation. I do not know why that to rethink the bedroom tax, because one-bedroom provider was surprised; surely, we ought to have expected properties simply were not available. I have to ask: why that. Only the week before last, I was in an excellent do the Government not listen to their own? hostel run by Coatham House, a charity in my constituency The Minister of State, who opened the debate, is for homeless young people. It has said that it has seen a consistent—he always comes out with the usual nonsense dramatic fall in the number of homeless young people. about it being everyone else’s fault. On the complaint It put that down to the policy. Hon. Members might about the inherited position, not once did I hear anyone think there are bad reasons for that—I can think of on the Government Benches talk about a school that we those, too—but there might also be good reasons. built that they did not want, a hospital that was built Many points have been made in the debate. The hon. that they did not want, or infrastructure we put in that Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) mentioned the they did not want. Investment was not the problem for financial stability of some of the stock transfer social this nation—it was the banks. Government Members housing providers. Some of them are highly leveraged want to forget that. and threatened by arrears, which will increase when I am amazed that we still have this legislation. Whatever direct payments begin. They could find themselves lies behind it, there must have been Government targets. financially unstable. Was it about saving money? Seven months in, how I welcome the Government’s efforts to free up the much money have the Government saved? Was it about system. One of the first cases that I dealt with as an MP swapping people around in the system to make sure that was that of a single man living in a three-bedroom house. those who were under-occupying moved out and that those He wanted to downsize, but the system was so rigid that who needed larger homes got them? Has that succeeded? he was told that he would be moved to the bottom of Will the Minister tell us how many families have been the waiting list, with no guarantee of how and when he able to downsize? How many social tenants have moved would get his next social house. Guess what? He did not into the private sector because no social housing was move. I welcome that the system has, to an extent, been available? I say: bring forward that review. As we have freed up and that exchanges are happening more often. heard time and again from Government Members, the Bill 895 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 896
[Mr Russell Brown] has been referred to frequently in this debate, concludes that 41.5% of people losing money because of the was introduced because it was populist, and for no bedroom tax and having to move will enter the private other reason. It is about kicking people in society when rented sector. That is the conclusion of an unbiased, they are down. That is the true face of compassionate peer-reviewed report. Conservatism. Now, here is the rub. This measure is supposed to be saving some money. The average rent for a three-bedroom 5.39 pm housing association property in Knowsley is £74 a week, compared with £132 for a three-bedroom house Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Much of my in the private rented sector. If someone were to scale speech will be about facts, figures and statistics, but down from the three-bedroom housing association property contributions thus far, certainly from the Opposition, to a two-bedroom house in the private sector, they have focused on the real impact of this policy on would be paying £115 a week, compared with the £74 they people’s lives. Be they people with disabilities, people were paying before. with access to children at weekends that they cannot maintain or others—there are many more—these are As my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich real people, and this has real consequences for their and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) said earlier, this policy is lives, so this debate is about not just facts, figures and morally bankrupt. It is also incompetent. It presumes statistics, but how this policy affects people’s lives. that people can just move around at will, and that a property that is right for their circumstances exists somewhere in their area. That is not the case. There is Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): For precisely growing evidence that, rather than saving money, this that reason and because Northern Ireland will be worse policy is costing more. affected than any other region of the UK, does the right hon. Gentleman welcome the fact that the Northern Ireland Executive and political parties there are joining 5.45 pm together to prevent this from hurting the vulnerable people of Northern Ireland? Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I apologise for not having sat through the whole debate; I was in the Mr Howarth: Absolutely, I applaud what is happening Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill Committee. in Northern Ireland. However, I have to say of those speeches that I have Since the introduction of the bedroom tax, rent arrears heard from the Labour Benches: I have heard it all in Merseyside have increased by £2.2 million—not to before. Initially, Labour Members dubbed the measure £2.2 million, but by £2.2 million—representing a loss of the “bedroom tax”— income that could have built 125 houses in the region, creating jobs and bringing all the other consequences. Chris Ruane: Initially? It still is. Some 60% of those in the Liverpool city region in arrears because of the bedroom tax are in arrears for Kwasi Kwarteng: They still persist in calling it that. the first time. It is not a habit of theirs, but a direct We have to remember why the legislation was brought consequence of the bedroom tax. in, and the serious nature of the economic position in which we found ourselves. One of the great things that Barbara Keeley: We have some frightening statistics this Government have achieved is a measure of welfare in Salford, too, but those are very large numbers, particularly reform. Labour Members vigorously opposed the housing the loss of spending power. Do those figures cover the benefit cap, but it has proved to be an incredibly popular Minister’s constituency and will she be explaining to and well-regarded policy. There were prophecies of people in the region how these things came about? ethnic cleansing in London and absolute devastation, but the policy has largely worked and welfare reform is Mr Howarth: They do indeed. I hope the Minister on course. will respond to these statistics, because her own constituents It is a misrepresentation to talk about the spare room will be interested to hear. subsidy as a tax. It is not a tax, by any definition. There We have experienced a 30% increase in void—empty— is also a serious problem of overcrowding. About 1.8 million properties, including a 130% increase in three-bedroom people are living in overcrowded conditions, yet there houses. This is not, therefore, just a matter of releasing are literally millions of spare rooms. What are we, as a unused bedroom space for those on the waiting list; country, going to do about that? Are we going to there is no demand for three-bedroom properties, which continue to subsidise people living in larger accommodation is why they become void properties. Staggeringly, the that they do not necessarily need, or are we going to try result has been a loss of rent to local landlords of to achieve a fairer distribution of accommodation? £616,622 per month, compared with £397,000 in the same period last year. Those are the direct consequences, Barbara Keeley: The hon. Gentleman has mentioned in one city region, of the bedroom tax. millions of extra rooms and the benefit cap. To many Where are our people supposed to go? In my city disabled people and their carers, those are not spare region, we have an excess of three-bedroom properties rooms. They are needed by people who need to sleep and a shortage of two and one-bedroom properties. We apart, or who have hospital beds or medical equipment. can debate all day who is responsible for that, but it is a Five thousand carers are being hit by the benefit cap, fact, so where are people to go? There is a shortage of and a large number will also be hit by this measure. The social housing for them to scale down to. Interestingly, hon. Gentleman needs to reflect on that fact, if he York university’s centre for housing policy report, which thinks the measure is working. 897 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 898
Kwasi Kwarteng: If that were indeed true, why is there 5.52 pm a discrepancy between privately rented accommodation and social housing in this context? I hope that the Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): As Opposition will enlighten me on this. The last Labour dawn broke on a May morning, a 53-year-old grandmother, Government might have wrecked the economy, but they Stephanie Bottrill, went to the table in her house—a at least had some sense of responsibility—unlike the house she had lived in for 18 years—and wrote notes to current Opposition. Why did that Labour Government her son, her daughter, her mother, her friends and the believe that there was a perfectly good reason to equalise grandson on whom she doted. She locked up, left the the treatment of the private and social sectors? cat behind, went across the street to her neighbour, put the keys in the neighbour’s door and then walked through Sheila Gilmore: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? a silent estate three miles to the M6, threw herself under a lorry and committed suicide. The note that this lady, Kwasi Kwarteng: I will not; I have only a short time in driven to desperation, left for her son Steven, 27, said: which to speak. “Don’t blame yourself for me ending my life. The only people Labour Members talk about fairness, but is it fair to blame are the Government.” that someone on a low income who is in privately rented Days earlier, faced with having to find £20 extra a week, accommodation should pay taxes in order to subsidise she had said to her neighbours, “I just can’t go on.” someone else’s spare room? Is it fair to raise taxation Mr Speaker, what kind of country do we live in, and from low-paid workers to subsidise other people’s what kind of Government do we have that drives a accommodation? decent woman like her to suicide? Once in a generation, there is a tax that is so bad that the next generation Ian Mearns: The hon. Gentleman has not recognised looks back and asks. “Why did they do it?” Such was that people with disabilities often get priority when it the poll tax; now the bedroom tax. comes to public housing. That is why there is a predominance of people with disabilities and greater The bedroom tax is an iniquitous, immoral and unjust levels of ill health in publicly provided housing. measure—cruel in its impact on the one hand, and presenting cruel dilemmas on the other. As for cruel in Kwasi Kwarteng: It is an issue of principle—equality its impact, three years ago, I helped David O’Reilley, his between socially provided housing and private sector partner Nikky Cunningham and their daughter to get rents. At the moment, there is a discrepancy that the into a council home. It had three bedrooms—a box room Government—perfectly fairly and perfectly wisely—are for the daughter and two other bedrooms, one of which trying to equalise. Nikky cannot sleep in because, tragically as a result of It is, I think, very irresponsible of Labour to persist an operation that went wrong, her loving husband in peddling these half-truths about the nature of what David is a paraplegic. With the special bed and special the Government are trying to do, and many people in equipment in the room, it is impossible for her to sleep this country think so, too. It is apparent that this in it too, so she sleeps in another room—but they have Government measure enjoys a wide body of support. It to pay the bedroom tax. is exactly on this issue where the Labour party is on the wrong side of public opinion. On welfare, the public are Chris Ruane: To what extent does my hon. Friend consistently behind the coalition parties in the polls—and think that the Government’s policies are being pursued this debate shows why. out of political spite rather than in the pursuit of Labour Members who are sitting rather lemming-like efficiency? in their places have absolutely no idea about fiscal responsibility and no idea about trying to reform a Jack Dromey: I shall come to that very point shortly. system that cannot be sustained. The notion that Labour would be tough on welfare has been shown to be untrue. This tax is presenting cruel dilemmas. “Move,” they It is not the case that Labour is tough on welfare. On are told—but who are they? Two thirds of them are the basis of the bits of the debate that I have had the disabled. Move where, in Birmingham? There are 13,736 pleasure—or, rather, misfortune—to listen to, I felt I people who are affected by the bedroom tax, and there was back in 1974. We have gone back to an early-70s, are 130 one-bedroom properties available to accommodate socialist-style model, in which there is no sense of them. If they stay, they sink into debt. The Government responsibility, no sense of any fiscal constraints under say “Ah,but we have the discretionary housing payments.” which Governments have to operate and not even any sense The Government gave £3.77 million to Birmingham of fairness when, as I mentioned, the taxes of people on and the council topped it up by £2 million, but there are lower income are being used to subsidise the spare room. 350 new claimants every week. If the current trajectory What is particularly frustrating for Government Members continues, the fund will run out by Christmas, and is to have to listen to the same old debates, the same old thousands of desperate people in Birmingham will face primary-school name calling of “the bedroom tax” and an unhappy Christmas and a bleak new year. all the rest of it, which are completely lacking any Not only is this is an unjust, iniquitous and immoral grounding in reality. We have said that we want fairness. tax; it is also the economics of the madhouse. If a Councils are able to use discretionary payments, and we disabled man or woman is moved from a house that has hear anecdotally that councils are refraining from using been adapted to a house that has not been adapted, the them. These are the anecdotes that we hear. It is now adaptations must be paid for. If someone is moved from time for the Labour party to wise up and get realistic a two-bedroom council home to a one-bedroom home about the nature of the challenges we face and the in the private rented sector, housing benefit will typically overcrowded nature of much of this country’s social cost £1,500 more a year. There is also the impact of bad housing. debt and administrative costs on house building. Housing 899 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 900
[Jack Dromey] associations has already issued 144 possession notices, despite it doing everything it can to keep those people in associations throughout the country are saying, “Just those properties. when we need more social homes, fewer of them will be On specific cases, the Government must act to ensure built.” that safe rooms for victims of domestic violence are I know that there are some honourable Members on exempted. The numbers are not high, but for victims of the Government Benches, and I pay particular tribute domestic violence to lose that room—that safe space— to the excellent contribution made by the hon. Member would be devastating, and the result could be tragic. We for St Ives (Andrew George), but let me say this to have to remember that the housing provider will have Government Members more generally. Have they no spent a lot of money putting that room in place, as they sense of shame about the pain that they are causing to will have done for those who need specific and major war veterans, children, the disabled and carers, three adaptations because of disability. quarters of whom have said that they are having to cut One of my constituents e-mailed me at 2.30 in the back on heating and eating as a result of the bedroom morning in a suicidal state. I opened the e-mail when I tax? Have they no sense of shame when they hear about woke at 7 am and feared the worst. This disabled lady Nicky Cunningham, the wonderful wife of David, her with two disabled children had been moved into a paraplegic husband? She said to me yesterday, “Jack, three-bedroom house because her needs required it. She they treat us as if we are good for nothing and contribute could not pay and she was terrified. nothing to society. Us a burden? We are already living There is another family.The husband and wife separated with a burden. Why do they do this to us?” There is no years ago, but she continues to live in the house because answer to that question, other than to do what a Labour she is his carer. He has severe mental illness; she is Government will ultimately do, and confine the bedroom disabled. It would cost the council a disproportionate tax to where it richly deserves to be: in the dustbin of amount to give them both separate properties and history. provide a carer for him. I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for 5.57 pm Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey): this is a pernicious Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I must and divisive measure. My constituents are saying to me, draw the House’s attention to my indirect interests in “Why am I being treated like this? What have they got the interests declared by my right hon. Friend the against us?” I am proud that the Labour party has taken Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford). a strong stand and made the decision to abolish it. This policy was obviously introduced with no clear Several hon. Members rose— idea of whether the people affected could be moved or could downsize, and certainly no consideration was given to their ability to pay if no other option was Mr Speaker: Order. In recognition of the fact that the available. Coming on top of the wider cost-of-living hon. Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) was not crisis, it is causing untold misery. As the impact assessment here for the bulk of the debate, he has generously showed and as my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster volunteered to address the House extremely briefly, and North (Ms Buck) rightly emphasised, it does not make I know he will expect to be held to that standard. sense, it will not work, and it will not save money. Government Members have been well schooled and tell 6.2 pm us that it is all to do with the deficit, but this is not a policy that will save the Government money. Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): I was not expecting such generosity so early on, Mr Speaker, and There are 1,200 people affected by the tax in Plymouth I apologise for not being present at the beginning of the Community Homes, which is in my constituency, and debate; unfortunately, I had a ministerial meeting. I which was working for months before the tax was have been listening to much of the debate, however, introduced to try to educate people and help them to and, notwithstanding some of the emotional hyperbole think about how they would cope with it. However, it from Opposition Members, at its core the Opposition has been able to move only 118 households, and almost motion is in effect saying that the Government spare half of those were mutual exchanges. That is the tip of room subsidy is somehow not fair. Well, what is not fair the iceberg. Plymouth Community Homes has personal is that 2 million households are on the social housing contact with every one of those people every week. The waiting list. What is not fair is that 250,000 tenants are cost of that is enormous, and it is now worried about living in overcrowded conditions. What is not fair is that the impact of the maximum benefit cap, which it thinks every family in this country is somehow paying £900 a could be even more devastating for some families. year to subsidise the benefits bill of £23 billion. That is People in my constituency are borrowing money from what is not fair. relatives, from payday lenders and from loan sharks, but What is fair, however, is that if a taxpayer-subsidised now they are finding that the money has run out. Mum council house has a spare room, the occupier of that and dad cannot afford to sub them any more, the house should pay an extra £14 per week or, effectively, payday lenders want their money back plus 100%, and the equivalent of three hours’ work. That is not a big the loan sharks want their pound of flesh. This simply ask. That is not beyond the reach of most tenants. What is a diabolical policy and the impact on my constituents is fair is that we exempt disabled tenants and partners in is devastating. need of overnight carers. What is fair is that we exempt My local authority has stepped in in exceptional those in supported “exempt” accommodation. What is cases, but arrears are mounting, and it will not be long fair is that we exempt disabled children who are unable before we start to see evictions. One of my housing to share a bedroom. What is fair is that we exempt 901 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 902 approved foster carers. What is fair is that we exempt that figures will be gathered to make sure that there can armed forces personnel who are living with parents. All be a policy review, and I would like to know when it will this the Government do because that is, indeed, fair. take place. I would also like to see the breakdown of the Further, the Government are doing all they can to amount of money spent as against the amount saved. address a number of the issues raised by Opposition One saving that the Government are making relates to Members, including providing discretionary housing people who will “float off Housing Benefit”: the assessment payment to give a safety net to help to support vulnerable estimates this to be £5 million. That is so to misunderstand residents, as well as making the welfare reform changes this area of the housing market as to be cruel and that have been introduced. In particular, in the 2013 incompetent, as Opposition Members have said. Not Budget the Government announced that £35 million only is it cruel and incompetent, but it has been especially extra a year would be allocated to help councils provide designed to be so. support for vulnerable tenants, especially those living in isolated rural areas. 6.8 pm The Government have a responsibility to deliver both Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): North Lincolnshire fairness and value for money for taxpayers. The spare Homes is a social housing provider for my constituency, room subsidy does just that by addressing the mismatch and I wish to share some of its observations about this between overcrowded housing and those living in houses tax, which is bad in principle and bad in practice. First, with empty bedrooms, subject to the exemptions I outlined. it told me that the worst aspect of the tax is that it is Therefore, I support the Government’s amendment. retrospective and that 95% of the problem flows from its retrospective nature. There are not enough smaller properties for affected households to downsize to in our 6.4 pm area. North Lincolnshire Homes has about 10,000 homes, Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I with 1,500 households affected by the tax. If it were to have been sitting here for several hours stewing about move them to properties that became available, it would the opening statement by the Minister of State, Department take six years to move all the households affected. for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury Some people are already moving into more expensive and Yate (Steve Webb). He said that the Government private rented properties to escape the bedroom tax. identified their largest area of spend—the Department Oddly, a two-bedroom property in north Lincolnshire for Work and Pensions—and decided that pensions can rent for £92.41 and rent on a typical three-bedroom were not going to be touched and so looked at the property is £78.35, so the £92.41 will be paid by housing welfare budget, where they saw that people on housing benefit when people have moved into the private sector, benefit were the most expensive and so that was the area rather than the other way round. The impact of this tax they were going to target. That says that the Government on the public purse is thus absurd. People are falling have deliberately targeted people in the greatest need of into arrears. Rent arrears among the 1,500 affected support and help. The Government may call it welfare, households have increased by about £150,000 since but I still call it social security, because that is what it is: April. The policy is not working financially and it is not it provides social security for people who need it. The working for the people in my constituency who are Government have identified the people who most need suffering as a result. that social security and they are going to take it away from them. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Barnardo’s today That is a big admission of the big differences between expressed grave concern about the effect that the bedroom Government Members and Labour Members—the hon. tax is having on families and, in particular, on children. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) called them Does the hon. Gentleman agree that families and children “philosophical differences”, but we call them ideological are experiencing worse times because of the tax? differences. As many Opposition Members have said, those differences relate to the fact that the only crime Nic Dakin: Many people have given examples of how these people have committed is to be too poor to afford families are being affected. Carers, people with disabilities to buy a house. That is the crime for which the Government and people who have access to their children overnight are going to be punishing them. In my constituency, for short periods are all being affected. All Members on 60% of the people affected by the bedroom tax since the Opposition Benches have had those people coming April—only half a year ago—are now in housing arrears. to our surgeries, so while listening to the contributions The Minister, in his opening statement, admitted that from many Government Members, I wondered whether the cost of the discretionary housing payment has trebled. they live in the same country as us. I really do not know What I want to hear from the Minister of State, Department the answer. for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wirral North Lincolnshire Homes is having to spend £200,000 West (Esther McVey), who is responding to the debate, a year on providing additional help to try to get people is if the cost of the discretionary housing payment has to move. That is an additional cost, and the money trebled, is this not also taxpayers’ money? It is, indeed, would be better spent on building new houses better to also money that the Government are spending, not address the problem. North Lincolnshire Homes has saving, and they are giving it to the people we have seen a 150% increase in the number of properties that it already identified as being in the greatest need. As many is struggling to let, with many larger properties lying Opposition Members have said, this policy neither saves empty. These are the economics of the madhouse—it money nor does anything about overcrowding. does not make any sense at all. I have read the opening pages of the Government’s Let me highlight the case of one constituent to illustrate impact assessment to consider the savings that are going again, through a story, how the tax impacts on individuals. to be made, and the best estimate is £930 million. It says Richard lives in a three-bedroom house and has suffered 903 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 904
[Nic Dakin] A fifth of those 3,100 social housing tenants are sufficiently disabled to receive disability living allowance— a severe stroke. He is completely wheelchair-bound, has not the higher-rate DLA awarded for overnight care but lost the use of the left side of his body and is without the lower-rate DLA. They have special equipment such speech. His only means of communication are his laptop as hoists and wheelchairs, or they are couples who and text messages. In late 2012, £30,000 of public cannot sleep together because one of them has a condition money was spent on converting his house to meet his such as anxiety or some form of disability—it is difficult needs, including a full wet room and a downstairs living to sleep with that partner—or perhaps one of them wets area. Since the introduction of the bedroom tax in April the bed. 2013, he no longer receives full housing benefits to meet his rent and is struggling to make payments. He, like Barbara Keeley: Does my hon. Friend agree that one many others, has fallen into arrears. Adapting another of the most invidious things about this tax is that property to meet his needs would involve a substantial couples have to declare whether they sleep together? cost. The situation is causing him massive stress and How invasive is that? worry and contributing to his poor health. Emily Thornberry: In Islington, given how small the I hope that the Minister is listening, as she appears to flats are, people simply cannot put two single beds in be. The sadness is that there are many Richards up and one room, which makes it difficult in those circumstances down this land who are suffering in the same way. I do for couples to be able to cope. One of the unintended not think it is proper for the situation to continue. consequences of the bedroom tax is additional pressure Today has given people the opportunity to listen to the on the tribunal service. People who appeal their benefits strength of the debate in this Chamber, which echoes have to wait a year, and another 30 tenants from Islington the strength of feeling outside it, and for us to do are appealing the bedroom tax. Our housing system is something about the issue before it is too late. under huge pressure, and we can do without this. Of course, people under-occupy—I fully acknowledge 6.12 pm that. I was brought up in a council house. When we all Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) moved out, my mum was under-occupying, and she had (Lab): Let me begin by informing Ministers here that the great benefit, frankly, of having a professional daughter Islington borough council used all its discretionary who bought her a flat. That house was given back to the housing payment last year and will certainly use all its stock. Many elderly people are under-occupying, and, discretionary housing payment this year. People are as I have said throughout the debate, I do not understand under attack not only from the bedroom tax but from why the Government have not augmented the plans of the limits on housing benefit, and a large number of many local authorities. In my local authority, people those in private accommodation can simply no longer about to go into retirement are interviewed and are afford to live where they live at the moment. While we asked whether they would like to move somewhere else, try to find them somewhere else to live, they need like a flat that is available to them for the rest of their assistance with their rent, which is paid through the life and that would be appropriate for them. Even discretionary housing payment. I know that that was a though, strictly speaking, they are entitled only to a point of debate earlier and I want to ensure that if there one-bedroom flat, the council will give them a two-bedroom is any discretionary housing payment going for a song it flat so that they can move out of a house and a family is given to us, because in Islington we could certainly can move in. Indeed, they might be given compensation use it. if they wish to move. I ask the Minister to imagine living as part of a Why not work it that way? If this is really about family of four in a three-bedroom flat. She is be unemployed under-occupancy and over-occupancy and getting people and living on about £240 a week. Her benefits went up into the right flat, we should work with them. We 1% this year, and she is now paying council tax for the should not just punish them, which is what the Government first time because of changes to the rules. The prices of are doing. Why does the nation need to wait? We need food, heating, fares and clothing have gone up, and she to build more. Why should the nation wait for my right has the disadvantage of a son who is nine and a daughter hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward who is seven. She had been in a three-bedroom flat, but Miliband)? Why should the nation wait for a Labour now she has to downsize; if she does not, she will lose Government in 2015, because when we are elected we £18 a week out of her £240 benefit. Such people exist: will build 200,000 homes every year, and we will really they come to my surgery and ask how they can economise. begin to address this problem? I would be grateful to hear from the Minister whether she has any ideas. 6.17 pm The bedroom tax affects 3,100 families in Islington. Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I In 2012-13, despite the frenetic building attempts by the have a very simple message for the Government in borough council, only 609 two-bedroom flats were let today’s debate. Six months after its introduction, their through the waiting list, which is already under huge bedroom tax is driving up rent arrears across Scotland; pressure with 19,000 families looking for accommodation it has caused immeasurable distress to low-income families; through it. Now, many more people need to be moved and it has created financial problems for local authorities very quickly as they are being attacked by the bedroom and housing associations. What it has manifestly not tax. Islington tenants with an additional room, as the done is meet its objectives: it has not tackled overcrowding; Government would say, pay £14 to £20 a week because it has not delivered better use of housing stock; and it of the high rents, which causes great hardship, and they has not saved taxpayers any money at all. In Scotland, face the disruption of moving, which is expensive and 82,500 households are affected by this policy, and 80% stressful. of them are the home of a disabled adult. 905 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 906
The Government seem to think that it is okay to in the private sector here that is completely out of take money out of the pockets of some of the most control and eye-watering for anybody who has to rent a disadvantaged people in our communities—but it is not home? okay. It symbolises just how out of touch the Government To illustrate the point, although Scotland and London are with the values of decent people in Scotland and are estimated to have about the same number of people elsewhere who recognise that this is a profoundly unfair affected by the bedroom tax—around 80,000 each—this and iniquitous measure. year Scotland has received only £15.25 million in funding Most social housing tenants have a lot less choice for discretionary housing payments. That includes the about where they live than the rest of us, and they are extra rural funding. I am glad that the Scottish Government already living in the cheapest housing available to them. have topped that up to the very peak of their allowance Across Scotland, 60% of tenants need a one-bedroom under the current terms of the Scotland Act 1998, by house, but only 27% of the social housing stock is putting in £20 million this year and next year to mitigate one-bedroom accommodation, so there is a fundamental some of the worst impacts; but fundamentally, we need structural mismatch that cannot be fixed by crude social to scrap the policy. engineering. There are simply not enough smaller houses People in Scotland did not vote for the bedroom tax. to go round, and I do not believe that it is right to It is a nasty policy from a nasty party that they did not punish the poorest tenants for the structural problems elect. It has been propped up by Liberals, who should of our housing stock supply. know better. The Scottish Government have made it We have seen significant hikes in arrears over the past clear that, with independence, the bedroom tax would six months. According to the Convention of Scottish be confined to history. I commend them not just for Local Authorities, all but one of Scotland’s local authorities their efforts to mitigate this policy, but for the other have reported increases in arrears that are attributable aspects of welfare reform—the protection that they to the introduction of the bedroom tax, yet relatively have given to my constituents and others from the few tenants have moved house. Given that eight out of effects of council tax benefit increases and the welfare 10 households are affected by disability, that really fund that people can access to deal with the impact of should not surprise us, because people do not want to the loss of crisis loans. move away from their family and their support networks. I urge the Government this evening to admit that More than that, they do not want to leave their home, as they got it wrong, accept that this policy is not working my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and is not doing what they intended and do the decent eloquently put it. thing by repealing this toxic piece of legislation. We have heard that the Government’s idea of fairness is to bring housing benefit in line with the local housing 6.22 pm allowance available to private sector tenants. I put it to the Government that that is a flawed premise and a false Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): The debate this afternoon comparison. Social housing is allocated not on a market has alarmed me. I listened to the huge divide between basis, but is prioritised on the basis of need. Most social the two sides here in the Palace of Westminster. I am landlords operate systems that take account of a range amazed at some of the contributions. As a Labour of factors when allocating tenancies, so that the most representative and as a member of the public, I resent vulnerable, disadvantaged and low-paid people in our Members of Parliament saying that I am foolish and my society have a stable place to live. I understand that the colleagues are foolish because we disagree with them, Government want to cut the housing benefit bill, but when all we are doing is looking to support the most squeezing half a billion pounds out of disabled tenants vulnerable people in society. is the wrong way to achieve that. The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) was outrageous in his comments. He attacked people in council houses because, he said, they lack ambition. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): That is so untrue. It is unbelievable. Some of the people My hon. Friend, as usual, is making a powerful speech. in my constituency who live in council houses have lived Does she agree that Scotland has been hit particularly there all their lives and for generations, and they have hard because of the sheer quantity of socially rented been working all their lives as well. So to think that housing that we have in Scotland? people in council houses do not count, and that the council or anybody else can just come and move them Dr Whiteford: That is true, and we also have a on when they think there is a crisis, is outrageous. disproportionate number of disabled people in social This pernicious tax impacts on 600,000 people, of housing. That suggests to me that social housing is whom 400,000 are disabled. Some 375,000 children will going to the people who need it. Those are the people suffer as a consequence of the tax. This is not about who find it hardest to access the labour market. under-occupancy. It is not even about saving money, When we look closely at the increase in the housing because the Government have admitted that they will benefit bill over the past decade, we see that 31% of not save as much as they had hoped. This is solely about it—almost a third of the whole UK increase—is attributable Conservative ideology. It is about dogma. It is about to the city of London alone. By contrast, in Scotland, throwing red meat to Back Benchers. It is about flexing the total housing benefit bill has increased by 22% in powerful financial muscles. It is a class issue between inflation-adjusted terms over the past 10 years, while in those who have and those who have not. It is about the social rented sector, the increase has been only 6%. people letting other people know where they are in the A 6% increase in 10 years is hardly out of control, but pecking order. That is what we have seen today. we know that rents in London are out of control. Why should disabled tenants in Scotland pay for a rental system David T. C. Davies rose— 907 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 908
Ian Lavery: The hon. Gentleman seeks to intervene. I rather kill myself, then there would be one less mouth to have never heard such outrageous comments as we feed.” Those are the real stories and Ministers would do heard in his contribution today in my three and half well to listen to them. years in the House. One family in Llanrumney in my constituency lives in The bedroom tax will mean more child poverty and a four-bedroom council home with two severely autistic more people looking to pay off payday loans. There will sons. They moved in 15 years ago and had important be spiralling debt and people made homeless because of adaptations made on medical grounds. Their daughter the bedroom tax. This is not simply about the bedroom then moved out, and they are now considered to have a tax. That is just a single part of the wider welfare reform, spare room and have been hit by the bedroom tax. The which the Government have seen falling down around council is doing everything that it can to help, but there their ears. The personal independence payment has will be a massive cost in moving to another house and huge problems. Universal credit has hit the buffers. adapting that, let alone the additional strain put on two There are problems with employment and support autistic children. Changing their lives will mean significant allowance, and hon. Members should look at the situation damage to them. The suggestion of some Government that Atos is causing, with, in the main, the same sort of Members that such circumstances are lifestyle choices is people. frankly offensive. The people we are talking about today live in homes Ministers would do well to listen to some of the where they have lived all their lives in many cases. It is financial facts. I have spoken to both my local authorities about time that people understood that. These are this week. Cardiff has told me that it is now dealing homes where people and children were brought up, with more than £1 million-worth of arrears. That is up where families lost their loved ones and where tears of £360,000 since the same period last year, largely due to joy and sadness have been shed. the bedroom tax. It has five times more tenants looking to move to one-bedroom properties than exist in the David T. C. Davies: Crocodile tears. city, and in the Vale of Glamorgan, my neighbouring authority, there are more than 16 times more people looking for one-bedroom properties than exist. Again, Hon. Members: Withdraw! 41% of their accounts are seeing increasing arrears. It was a shame today to hear the hon. Member for Ian Lavery: That is what this is about: moving people Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) refer to feckless fathers from their houses. It is outrageous, but at the end of the and putting them in chains and other things, because he day, I would like to think that the Government will— and I have had some sensible and reasonable discussions on these issues, most notably in preparing a report that was Mr Speaker: Order. agreed by the Welsh Affairs Committee. I urge Ministers to look at that because it shows the disproportionate 6.26 pm impact of this policy on people in Wales, where it has hit 40,000 people, more than anywhere else in Britain, Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ 25,000 of whom are disabled. Co-op): It is a pleasure to follow the passionate speech We also heard some real gems in that inquiry, most of my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian notably Lord Freud’s suggestion that people should buy Lavery), who took on some of the outrageous and sofa beds or go out and get some work. He did not absolutely extraordinary comments that we have heard. recognise that most of those people are in work and As we have heard today, the policy is iniquitous, claiming housing benefit because they are on such low unfair and economically illiterate. We have heard fantasy incomes. Also, extraordinarily, given the stories about claims about the savings that will be made and the suicide and mental health issues that we have heard transfer of liability—the financial consequences for councils today, neither he nor the Department had even considered and registered social landlords. We have also heard the mental health impacts. some quite extraordinary boasts from the Minister of It is therefore really galling to have a Liberal Democrat State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. candidate wandering around my area of Cardiff, where Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb). He many hundreds of people are affected by the bedroom talked about the wonderful rise in discretionary housing tax, and sticking leaflets through the doors stating that payments. Such claims are like telling someone that the Lib Dems are on the side of a fairer society. I am both their arms will be broken, but they will be given a sorry, but I find that absolutely extraordinary. I hope sling for one of them. The policy is not working, but that the voters of Cardiff South and Penarth show they will have some crumbs off the table to sort it out them exactly what we think of them in a few weeks’ time. afterwards. That is extraordinary, and it reflects the local story of pressure and pain that I have seen with the rise in food banks. The Trussell Trust says that 45% 6.30 pm of that increase is due to policies such as the bedroom Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I draw the tax and the cost pressures that come with energy bills, House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ leading people into the embrace of loan sharks. Financial Interests. There is also the mental strain. We have heard some I last spoke about the bedroom tax in another Opposition tragic tales today, in particular from my hon. Friend the day debate in which we called on the Government to Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) look at the overall impact of their policies on people about suicide. I similarly have had constituents come to with disabilities. I remember macho Government Members me. One in particular handed me a letter that he could asking me what Labour’s position on the bedroom tax not bear to read to me, which literally said, “I would was. I told them that I would push our leadership to 909 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 910 abolish it. I am proud to stand here today and say that cannot take on two-bedroom properties because they that is Labour’s position in opposition and that it will cannot afford to pay the bedroom tax and the properties be our position in government. are no use for families. We have had more luck in getting our leadership to It is often said that a Prime Minister can be defined listen than have the poor Lib Dems, who today have not by his policies, so it is telling that at the same time as managed to secure from the Minister any reassurances this Prime Minister gave a tax cut worth £100,000 to on future support for some of the most vulnerable 13,000 millionaires, his Government introduced a measure people in society. I urge them to find the necessary that unfairly hit 660,000 people. It is unfair because it anatomical attachments and vote against the Government’s targets the most vulnerable, unfair because the charge is amendment. The Government have not only a mean arbitrary and does not allow for consideration of the policy, but a mean amendment. It talks about “exaggeration ability to pay, and unfair because it is incurred despite and misrepresentation”. I would like the Minister to tell no smaller properties being available in the vast majority us which of the stories we have heard today has been a of cases. In case we are in any doubt, the Government’s misrepresentation, or about “crocodile tears”, as the own impact assessment was based on families being Prime Minister’s own Parliamentary Private Secretary unable to move to avoid the bedroom tax, identifying chuntered earlier from a sedentary position. mismatches in many areas that would result in insufficient I have never been more disgusted by the language properties being available. Put simply, the Government used by Government Members in a debate. They showed knew from the outset that the bedroom tax would result a complete lack of understanding of what poverty is. in families having no alternative but to pay up or face Daily in my constituency office I hear from people in eventual eviction. real poverty, poverty of a kind we have not seen in this How are people advised to cope? They are told to country since the 1930s. They are unable to heat their work extra hours or take in a lodger: absurd indeed. homes, unable to put food on the table and unable to Our people are groaning under the cosh of part-time, clothe their children. If they were in prison it would be a low-paid jobs that leave them dependent on housing breach of their human rights. It is a disgrace that this benefits—if they are in work at all—and how many Government are adding to that poverty by imposing a housing associations or local councils allow sub-letting bedroom tax. to lodgers? I challenge Government Members to come and be a lodger in one of the council houses in my Government Members are keen on calling on the constituency for a week and find out all about the Opposition to apologise for our mistakes in the past. I reality they need to find out about. hope that the Minister will apologise to the parents of severely disabled children who had to go to the highest The largest housing association that serves my courts in the land to get justice. Let us not forget that constituency, Tristar Homes, currently has 1,725 tenants Government Members voted for the bedroom tax in its classed as under-occupying their property. Almost two original form. They, too, owe an apology. They talk thirds have accrued rent arrears, with 85% being subject about people who take too much out of the system, but to increasing amounts. This means that since the the carers of this country give more than they will ever introduction of the bedroom tax, tenants with Tristar take out. Homes have amassed arrears of £100,000. However, even that is not reflective of the true cost of this This morning we said bon voyage to the Secretary of Government’s policy, because it is on top of the additional State. Roll on 2015. Vive la différence between those on costs borne by Tristar Homes in dealing with the increased the Government side and those on the Opposition side. levels of debt and efforts to help tenants back into Let us say au revoir to the adulterous and mean coalition work, and £50,000 that it has invested in its own money Government. Let us say au revoir to the Secretary of advice service. This still does not take into account the State. Let us say au revoir to the bedroom tax. £265,000 discretionary fund established to provide some support to tenants impacted by the loss of housing benefit. In total, the cost to Tristar Homes of dealing 6.33 pm with the bedroom tax and its effects has surpassed Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Homeless £500,000. people are refusing to accept a home and get their This expensive failure to address the many symptoms families off the street as a direct result of the Government’s of the housing crisis is the reason we must repeal the bedroom tax. If they take a house with an extra room—they bedroom tax without hesitation. We have already pledged might not have any other choice—they believe that they to do so. The Prime Minister should beat us to it and cannot stretch their food budget, their energy budget or end this misery for countless families. any other budget to pay the bedroom tax, so they and their children remain homeless, and it is the coalition 6.37 pm Government who are to blame. Working families will Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): In my two minutes not take on larger properties in case their circumstances on this policy it is very hard to decide where to start change. We have examples of both councils and housing because there is so much wrong with it. There is the associations with houses standing empty, so we have terrible situation of separated parents sharing child empty houses and homeless families. It is incredible that care while children are expected to sleep on camp beds the Government could get this policy so drastically or sofas or to share with their parents. There are people wrong. who are not choosing between heating and eating because Let us consider the high-rise Prior and Melsonby they are having to go cold and hungry, disabled people Court in my constituency. Some £4 million was spent on whose health is deteriorating because of stress and improving properties there, yet 10% of them currently distress, and people who have committed or are remain empty. The reason is that young single people contemplating suicide. 911 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 912
[Julie Hilling] allowance. The local housing allowance was not implemented retrospectively and people were not trapped. Government Members have made the frankly ridiculous My right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling and desperate claim that this is Labour policy, but the (Mrs McGuire), who was a Minister at the time so she local housing allowance was not applied retrospectively. ought to know, pointed out that it never became our Indeed, in Bolton there are still 1,000 tenants on the old policy in the social rented sector. scheme because their circumstances have not changed—the My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and trigger for local housing allowance to be applied. This Arran (Katy Clark) was right to say—this was also Government decided to introduce carnage, with no highlighted by Government Members—that our aspiration account taken of the nature of housing stock in each for social housing is very different from theirs. We see it area, no account taken of the needs of disabled people as fulfilling a role of offering high-quality, stable or separated families, and no trialling, unlike the four accommodation to strengthen families and communities. years of trialling done before the local housing allowance We cannot understand why a Government who proclaim was introduced. Instead, they have created chaos and their commitment to a big society would not agree with heartache. us on that. Like everybody, I have surgeries full of desperate The hon. Members for Meon Valley (George people. I would like to talk about their cases, but Hollingbery) and for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) suggested unfortunately time is so limited because so many people that the policy is popular with the public and pointed to are so angered by this Government’s policy that I cannot. the recently published Ipsos MORI poll. I suggest that I will finish by asking a few questions. Who in this place hon. Members look a little more closely at the poll, thinks it appropriate for a 15-year-old to share a bedroom because it shows that the public become more sceptical with a toddler? Who thinks it right that boys and girls about the policy the more they know about it. The approaching puberty should have to share a room? public are not in favour of the policy if there is no Who thinks it right that two adults should be forced to alternative home for people to move to or if it means share a bedroom irrespective of their health needs? that people cannot meet basic living costs, which they Who thinks it makes sense to force families to move cannot. As the Real Life Reform research is beginning from a three-bedroom house with an eight-year-old and to show, the policy is causing human misery and leading a nine-year-old and then force them to move back to a to arrears and debt, to mental health problems and three-bedroom house a year later? It is a disgraceful stress, and to families cutting back on fuel and food. policy that shows that this Government do not have a clue about the lives of ordinary people. They are out of George Hollingbery: Having looked at the poll this touch and heartless. It is a cruel, senseless and stupid afternoon, I think I am right in saying that the hon. policy, and it should be repealed now. Lady may have a point on the issue of requiring people to move out of the area in which they live, but that there 6.39 pm was an approval of more than 45%—I think it was 48%—for expecting people to move within the area in Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): The which they live. Is that correct? Opposition are proud to have called this debate. The testimony we have heard from right hon. and hon. Kate Green: That may be the case, but as my Opposition Members from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern colleagues have repeatedly shown, in many areas there Ireland has shown again why this policy is both a moral is a mismatch of suitable properties for people to move and a practical failure. It is cruel, unworkable and into. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to perverse. It is not reducing overcrowding and it is not acknowledge, as we have said, that expecting people to saving money as intended. It is causing fear and misery, move up and down the country would not command and it is time it was scrapped. the same popular support. I want to respond to as many of the points that have As many of my colleagues have pointed out, the been raised as possible. I appreciate that many of my policy is especially cruel towards those affected, including right hon. and hon. Friends who wanted to participate 220,000 families with children, lone parents and separated this afternoon have not been able to do so. One or two families and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, of them have notified me of their concerns and I hope Moor View (Alison Seabeck) has said, those fleeing to be able to raise them. domestic violence. As my hon. Friend the Member for Let me start with an issue that was raised repeatedly Halton has said, some pensioner couples will be affected by Government Members, who made comparisons with under universal credit if they are not both over state the private rented sector and said that the situation pension age. Most crucially, two thirds of those affected there is appropriate for the social sector. A whole raft of are disabled—420,000 disabled people are affected by arguments against that position were made by my the bedroom tax. Opposition colleagues. My hon. Friend the Member for Contrary to what Government Members appeared to Halton (Derek Twigg) pointed out that the social market believe at the beginning of the debate, not all disabled is a very different market with very different rental people are protected from this policy. Adults with an structures from those in the private sector. The hon. overnight carer are protected, but children who need an Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) pointed overnight carer are not. Children with medium and out that we allocate social housing predominantly on high-level care needs will now be protected—following the basis of need, not market forces. the Government conceding that they need to take action My hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North in light of the Burnip and Gorry cases—but children (Ms Buck) pointed out that there is a significant difference with higher rate mobility needs are not protected, contrary between this Government’s implementation of the bedroom to the advice of the Social Security Advisory Committee, tax and Labour’s implementation of the local housing let alone there being protection for all disabled children. 913 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 914
As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South get another tenancy in a small property unless and until (Dame Anne Begg) pointed out, and many colleagues those arrears have been cleared. That is simply not reinforced, there is no protection for a couple if they are possible for many families. unable as a result of health or disability to share a bed We were pleased—surprised, I think—to hear the or bedroom. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton Minister of State say at the beginning of the debate that South East (Yasmin Qureshi) highlighted to me the case if it turned out that the discretionary housing pot in a of her constituents, Mr and Mrs Wilkes, who have been local authority was fully committed, more money would particularly harshly hit by this measure. be made available. That was encouraging, and we would There is no protection if someone needs extra space welcome his colleague repeating that commitment. Let for equipment or because they have had their home us remember, however, that the discretionary housing adapted, as was the case for the Rutherford family who payment is temporary, transitional and—as its name were required to install a hoist, wider doors and a wet suggests—discretionary. In many cases, we have instances room for their 13-year-old son, Warren, yet are not of local authorities denying people access to that pot of protected from the bedroom tax. Mr Randall from funding, and actively discouraging people from going Basildon has been told by his council that it will not to appeal. move him to a smaller property as it has not been and The most cruel part of the policy is the lack of cannot be adapted, yet he is being hit by the bedroom suitable alternative homes for people to move to. There tax in his current property on which adaptations have is a lack of one-bedroom properties in certain parts of been made. the country and, increasingly, three-bedroom properties are left lying empty. How can that be sensible? People are being forced to leave sheltered accommodation that, Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): My hon. by definition, cannot be taken up by families who do Friend is making a very good case. As I understand it, not have the special needs or meet the criteria to live in the Government have two arguments, the first of which those homes. is that the policy will relieve overcrowding. When larger properties are freed up in my constituency, they are sold Hon. Members on both sides of the House have on the open market. If families move into private rented rightly said that the answer to the problem is to build accommodation, that costs five times as much as social more housing. I am proud that Labour has committed housing. Neither argument works. to building 1 million new homes—[Interruption.] Let me address Labour’s record on housing. Between 2000 and 2007, the Labour Government increased the number Kate Green: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Let of additional net new homes in every single year. The us remember that disabled people’s options are more Department for Communities and Local Government limited. A number of hon. Members have said that figures from last week prove that. The number of net people should work, or work a few more hours a week. new homes has declined in every year since 2007, including Often for disabled people it is particularly difficult to under this Government. work or to do extra hours, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) Ian Swales rose— pointed out, that is a particular challenge for carers. One point that I do not think has been made, but which Kate Green: I will not give way. is extremely concerning for disabled people, is that In 1997, when Labour returned to power, the Labour many local authorities are treating disability living allowance Government inherited an urgent priority to deal with as income when calculating someone’s entitlement to the appalling quality of the housing stock. Our priority discretionary housing payment. That is a disgrace. I was to bring it up to decent standards. Of course, it have challenged the Minister on that before, but he has would have been good to build more homes, but we had declined to take action to ensure that all local authorities to bring existing homes up to a decent standard. of whatever political colour have clear guidance on how It is time to call a halt on the Government’s policy. A they should treat the DLA. review in 2015 is too late. Labour will act as soon as it As colleagues have pointed out, the policy will not comes to power to abolish the policy, but I hope the achieve the savings that have been expected and scored Government commit to abolishing it now. by the Government because of the extra cost of having to adapt, readapt or undo adaptations to homes and, 6.51 pm as my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith The Minister of State, Department for Work and (Mr Slaughter) pointed out, because of the extra high Pensions (Esther McVey): I welcome the opportunity to cost of rent and therefore housing benefit in the private speak in this lively and, at times, loud debate. We have rented sector. There are the implications of higher levels heard many speeches in the past five and a half hours of arrears and the extra cost of advising people in and many issues have been raised. Labour Members arrears, and of collecting and managing arrears. There have passed much speculation as certainty. They all is also, of course, the impact on the financial standing called for the spare room subsidy to remain. There has of housing associations. The policy is damaging their been much passion—[Interruption]—and much shouting credit rating and cash flows, and makes it more difficult out like that. However, unfortunately, Labour Members for them to undertake the new builds we desperately have given us no answers—they have given not one need. single answer to the problems left by the previous As colleagues have said, we will see extra costs for Labour Government. Not one Labour Member confronted local authorities, children’s services, the health service the nub of the problem or tackled the issues at hand, or and so on, and we also highlighted the utter perversity addressed the many interdependent issues that have of the fact that being in arrears means someone will not made the removal of the spare room subsidy necessary. 915 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 916
[Esther McVey] The Opposition’s figures—surprisingly—do not always stack up. We talked about how we are going to find new Let us therefore remind hon. Members of the complex homes for different people and how we are going to mix and the delicate balance that we must get right, support them to move into accommodation—all the which we are doing. Some 400,000 people are in things we should be doing. Yes, 660,000 people are overcrowded accommodation, and nearly 2 million affected by these changes, but only earlier today I spoke people—[Interruption.] to one of the biggest online home swap companies. It has 320,000 accommodations for people to move to. By Mr Speaker: Order. There is too much noise in the the way, it has only 6.7% market share, so we are easily Chamber. Members must not shout at the Minister. The able, should we be working in this way, to find houses Minister’s response to the debate must be heard. for people to swap. [Interruption.] Mr Speaker: Order. There is simply too much noise in Esther McVey: Just like I am being shouted down the Chamber. It is not possible to hear what the Minister now, the voices of nearly 2 million people on waiting is saying. [Interruption.] Order. The Minister must and lists have been shouted down and, unfortunately, the will be heard. 400,000 people in overcrowded accommodation are not being listened to. Esther McVey: I would like to raise the example of We have two different legal systems within one—it Susannah from south Yorkshire. She had had four does different things for people in the private rented children and did not necessarily want to move. In the sector and for people in the social rented sector. Opposition end, she looked around for six months and moved. She Members want to remove the reversal of the spare room said, “Actually, I wished I’d had that support earlier, subsidy, but I want to throw a question out there. If because now I am in an area I prefer. I have downsized. they retain the spare room subsidy, I believe a legal I have a smaller house, which means that my cost of challenge is on the way from people in the private living is less. I am paying less on cleaning and less on sector, who want the same policy to apply to them. If heating, and I can live within my means.” I have a list of Labour reverses our policy, that is not tough on fiscal people like that. I ask Opposition Members to work responsibility. Instead, Labour will spend yet more, with their local authorities and their constituents to which is typical Labour: spend more and increase benefits, help them downsize so they can live within their means. and ignore the problem altogether. I know that living within one’s means is not something Hon. Members have asked whether the policy was Opposition Members understand, but that is what we about saving money, getting the housing stock right or all have to do as a country. getting the right people into social houses. Actually, we must do all those things. That is why, as we are solving Sheila Gilmore: At what point, when the costs of this those problems, £4.5 billion will be put into new building, policy outweigh the savings, will the Government admit so we will have 170,000 new houses by 2015. A further that they have simply got it wrong? £3.3 billion will mean we have another 65,000 houses by 2018. Esther McVey: We are planning to save money and The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun move people into the right houses, something the Labour (Cathy Jamieson) said that Members on each side of the Government failed to do. They left people in the wrong House are different and she is quite right: those on houses and never supported them, and lived beyond the Opposition Benches deliver problems and those on their means. the coalition Government Benches have to solve them. The hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to (Emily Thornberry) asked what the difference is between move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). the Government side and the Opposition side of the Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. House. The Opposition drove us into recession, never Question agreed to. thinking about what they were spending and never Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), living within their means. We are digging them out of That the original words stand part of the Question. that recession. The House divided: Ayes 226, Noes 252. Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): What Division No. 126] [6.59 pm would the hon. Lady say to my constituents, Mr and Mrs Wilkes? Mrs Wilkes has a back problem and is AYES disabled. Her husband cannot share a bed with her, Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Berger, Luciana much as he would like to, and has to stay in the second Ali, Rushanara Betts, Mr Clive room. They are having to pay the bedroom tax. Allen, Mr Graham Blackman-Woods, Roberta [Interruption.] Anderson, Mr David Blears, rh Hazel Austin, Ian Blomfield, Paul Bailey, Mr Adrian Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Mr Speaker: Order. Interventions must be brief. I Bain, Mr William Brennan, Kevin think we got the gist and we are grateful to the hon. Banks, Gordon Brown, Lyn Lady. Barron, rh Mr Kevin Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Beckett, rh Margaret Brown, Mr Russell Esther McVey: We have listened to all of those issues Begg, Dame Anne Buck, Ms Karen and trebled the discretionary housing payment. That is Benn, rh Hilary Burden, Richard why people have a responsibility to help those people. Benton, Mr Joe Burnham, rh Andy 917 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 918
Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hendrick, Mark Phillipson, Bridget Smith, Owen Campbell, Mr Alan Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pound, Stephen Straw, rh Mr Jack Campbell, Mr Ronnie Heyes, David Powell, Lucy Stringer, Graham Caton, Martin Hillier, Meg Qureshi, Yasmin Stuart, Ms Gisela Champion, Sarah Hilling, Julie Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Tami, Mark Chapman, Jenny Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reed, Mr Jamie Thomas, Mr Gareth Clark, Katy Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Steve Thornberry, Emily Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hopkins, Kelvin Reeves, Rachel Timms, rh Stephen Clwyd, rh Ann Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Emma Trickett, Jon Coaker, Vernon Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan Turner, Karl Connarty, Michael Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Twigg, Derek Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, Angus Twigg, Stephen Cooper, rh Yvette Jackson, Glenda Robertson, John Vaz, rh Keith Corbyn, Jeremy Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Vaz, Valerie Crausby, Mr David Jarvis, Dan Rotheram, Steve Watson, Mr Tom Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Weir, Mr Mike Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Williams, Hywel Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Sawford, Andy Williamson, Chris Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Seabeck, Alison Wilson, Phil Cunningham, Mr Jim Keeley, Barbara Shannon, Jim Winnick, Mr David Cunningham, Sir Tony Kendall, Liz Sharma, Mr Virendra Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Curran, Margaret Khan, rh Sadiq Sheerman, Mr Barry Wishart, Pete Dakin, Nic Lavery, Ian Sheridan, Jim Wood, Mike Danczuk, Simon Lazarowicz, Mark Shuker, Gavin Woodcock, John Darling, rh Mr Alistair Leslie, Chris Skinner, Mr Dennis Wright, David David, Wayne Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Slaughter, Mr Andy Wright, Mr Iain Davidson, Mr Ian Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Denham, rh Mr John Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Angela Heidi Alexander and Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Nick Tom Blenkinsop Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Caroline Doughty, Stephen MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona NOES Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Mr Khalid Adams, Nigel Clappison, Mr James Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Afriyie, Adam Clark, rh Greg Dugher, Michael Malhotra, Seema Aldous, Peter Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Eagle, Ms Angela Mann, John Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Eagle, Maria Marsden, Mr Gordon Bacon, Mr Richard Coffey, Dr Thérèse Edwards, Jonathan McCabe, Steve Baker, Norman Collins, Damian Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael Baker, Steve Colvile, Oliver Ellman, Mrs Louise McCarthy, Kerry Barclay, Stephen Cox, Mr Geoffrey Engel, Natascha McClymont, Gregg Baron, Mr John Crabb, Stephen Esterson, Bill McDonald, Andy Beith, rh Sir Alan Crouch, Tracey Evans, Chris McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Bellingham, Mr Henry Davey, rh Mr Edward Farrelly, Paul McDonnell, John Benyon, Richard Davies, David T. C. Farron, Tim McFadden, rh Mr Pat Beresford, Sir Paul (Monmouth) Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Alison Bingham, Andrew Davies, Glyn Flello, Robert McGovern, Jim Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Philip Flint, rh Caroline McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Blackman, Bob Dinenage, Caroline Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain Bone, Mr Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Galloway, George Meacher, rh Mr Michael Bradley, Karen Doyle-Price, Jackie Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian Brady, Mr Graham Drax, Richard George, Andrew Miliband, rh Edward Brake, rh Tom Dunne, Mr Philip Gilmore, Sheila Miller, Andrew Bray, Angie Ellis, Michael Glass, Pat Mitchell, Austin Bridgen, Andrew Ellison, Jane Glindon, Mrs Mary Moon, Mrs Madeleine Brine, Steve Ellwood, Mr Tobias Godsiff, Mr Roger Morden, Jessica Browne, Mr Jeremy Elphicke, Charlie Goggins, rh Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Eustice, George Goodman, Helen Morris, Grahame M. Burns, Conor Evans, Graham Greatrex, Tom (Easington) Burns, rh Mr Simon Evans, Jonathan Green, Kate Mudie, Mr George Burstow, rh Paul Evans, Mr Nigel Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Paul Burt, rh Alistair Evennett, Mr David Griffith, Nia Murray, Ian Burt, Lorely Fallon, rh Michael Gwynne, Andrew Nandy, Lisa Byles, Dan Field, Mark Hain, rh Mr Peter O’Donnell, Fiona Cameron, rh Mr David Foster, rh Mr Don Hamilton, Fabian Onwurah, Chi Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Freer, Mike Hanson, rh Mr David Osborne, Sandra Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Fuller, Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet Owen, Albert Carswell, Mr Douglas Garnier, Sir Edward Harris, Mr Tom Pearce, Teresa Cash, Mr William Garnier, Mark Havard, Mr Dai Percy, Andrew Chishti, Rehman Gibb, Mr Nick Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Chope, Mr Christopher Gilbert, Stephen 919 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 920
Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Menzies, Mark Sturdy, Julian Wallace, Mr Ben Glen, John Miller, rh Maria Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Webb, Steve Goodwill, Mr Robert Mills, Nigel Swinson, Jo Wharton, James Gove, rh Michael Moore, rh Michael Syms, Mr Robert Wheeler, Heather Grant, Mrs Helen Mordaunt, Penny Tapsell, rh Sir Peter White, Chris Gray, Mr James Morgan, Nicky Thurso, John Whittingdale, Mr John Grayling, rh Chris Morris, David Timpson, Mr Edward Wiggin, Bill Green, rh Damian Mosley, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Williams, Stephen Griffiths, Andrew Mowat, David Tredinnick, David Williamson, Gavin Gummer, Ben Mundell, rh David Truss, Elizabeth Wilson, Mr Rob Gyimah, Mr Sam Munt, Tessa Turner, Mr Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hames, Duncan Murray, Sheryll Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wright, Jeremy Hammond, Stephen Murrison, Dr Andrew Uppal, Paul Yeo, Mr Tim Hancock, Matthew Neill, Robert Vaizey, Mr Edward Young, rh Sir George Hands, Greg Newmark, Mr Brooks Vara, Mr Shailesh Tellers for the Noes: Harper, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah Vickers, Martin Gavin Barwell and Harrington, Richard Nokes, Caroline Walker, Mr Charles Jenny Willott Harris, Rebecca Nuttall, Mr David Hart, Simon O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Harvey, Sir Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Question accordingly negatived. Hayes, rh Mr John Opperman, Guy Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2), Heald, Oliver Ottaway, rh Richard That the proposed words be there added. Heath, Mr David Paice, rh Sir James Heaton-Harris, Chris Parish, Neil The House divided: Ayes 253, Noes 222. Hemming, John Patel, Priti Division No. 127] [7.14 pm Hendry, Charles Penning, Mike Herbert, rh Nick Penrose, John AYES Hinds, Damian Percy, Andrew Hollingbery, George Perry, Claire Adams, Nigel Collins, Damian Hollobone, Mr Philip Phillips, Stephen Afriyie, Adam Colvile, Oliver Holloway, Mr Adam Pickles, rh Mr Eric Aldous, Peter Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hopkins, Kris Pincher, Christopher Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Crabb, Stephen Horwood, Martin Poulter, Dr Daniel Bacon, Mr Richard Crouch, Tracey Howarth, Sir Gerald Prisk, Mr Mark Baker, Norman Davey, rh Mr Edward Howell, John Pritchard, Mark Baker, Steve Davies, David T. C. Hughes, rh Simon Pugh, John Barclay, Stephen (Monmouth) Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Raab, Mr Dominic Baron, Mr John Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark Randall, rh Sir John Barwell, Gavin Davies, Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Redwood, rh Mr John Beith, rh Sir Alan Dinenage, Caroline James, Margot Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bellingham, Mr Henry Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Javid, Sajid Reevell, Simon Benyon, Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Robertson, rh Hugh Beresford, Sir Paul Drax, Richard Johnson, Gareth Robertson, Mr Laurence Bingham, Andrew Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Andrew Rogerson, Dan Binley, Mr Brian Ellis, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew Blackman, Bob Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Rudd, Amber Bone, Mr Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Ruffley, Mr David Bottomley, Sir Peter Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Sir Greg Russell, Sir Bob Brady, Mr Graham Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Rutley, David Brake, rh Tom Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Sandys, Laura Bray, Angie Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Scott, Mr Lee Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Mr Nigel Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Selous, Andrew Brine, Steve Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline Shapps, rh Grant Browne, Mr Jeremy Fallon, rh Michael Leadsom, Andrea Shelbrooke, Alec Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Field, Mark Lee, Jessica Shepherd, Sir Richard Burns, Conor Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Simpson, Mr Keith Burns, rh Mr Simon Freer, Mike Lewis, Brandon Skidmore, Chris Burstow, rh Paul Fuller, Richard Lewis, Dr Julian Smith, Henry Burt, rh Alistair Garnier, Sir Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Smith, Julian Burt, Lorely Garnier, Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Smith, Sir Robert Byles, Dan Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Soames, rh Nicholas Cameron, rh Mr David Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Soubry, Anna Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Luff, Peter Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Glen, John Main, Mrs Anne Stanley, rh Sir John Carswell, Mr Douglas Goodwill, Mr Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Stephenson, Andrew Cash, Mr William Gove, rh Michael May, rh Mrs Theresa Stevenson, John Chishti, Rehman Grant, Mrs Helen Maynard, Paul Stewart, Bob Chope, Mr Christopher Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason Stewart, Iain Clappison, Mr James Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Karl Streeter, Mr Gary Clark, rh Greg Green, rh Damian McIntosh, Miss Anne Stride, Mel Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Griffiths, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Gummer, Ben McVey, Esther Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gyimah, Mr Sam 921 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 922
Hames, Duncan Mowat, David Truss, Elizabeth Whittingdale, Mr John Hammond, Stephen Mundell, rh David Turner, Mr Andrew Wiggin, Bill Hancock, Matthew Munt, Tessa Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williams, Stephen Hands, Greg Murray, Sheryll Uppal, Paul Williamson, Gavin Harper, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Vaizey, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Harrington, Richard Neill, Robert Vara, Mr Shailesh Wollaston, Dr Sarah Harris, Rebecca Newmark, Mr Brooks Vickers, Martin Wright, Jeremy Hart, Simon Newton, Sarah Walker, Mr Charles Yeo, Mr Tim Harvey, Sir Nick Nokes, Caroline Wallace, Mr Ben Young, rh Sir George Hayes, rh Mr John Nuttall, Mr David Webb, Steve Heald, Oliver O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Wharton, James Tellers for the Ayes: Heath, Mr David Ollerenshaw, Eric Wheeler, Heather Karen Bradley and Heaton-Harris, Chris Opperman, Guy White, Chris Jenny Willott Hemming, John Ottaway, rh Richard Henderson, Gordon Paice, rh Sir James NOES Hendry, Charles Parish, Neil Herbert, rh Nick Patel, Priti Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hinds, Damian Penning, Mike Ali, Rushanara Doughty, Stephen Hollingbery, George Penrose, John Allen, Mr Graham Dowd, Jim Hollobone, Mr Philip Perry, Claire Anderson, Mr David Doyle, Gemma Holloway, Mr Adam Phillips, Stephen Austin, Ian Dromey, Jack Hopkins, Kris Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bailey, Mr Adrian Dugher, Michael Horwood, Martin Pincher, Christopher Bain, Mr William Eagle, Ms Angela Howarth, Sir Gerald Poulter, Dr Daniel Banks, Gordon Eagle, Maria Howell, John Prisk, Mr Mark Barron, rh Mr Kevin Edwards, Jonathan Hughes, rh Simon Pritchard, Mark Beckett, rh Margaret Efford, Clive Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pugh, John Begg, Dame Anne Elliott, Julie Hunter, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Benn, rh Hilary Ellman, Mrs Louise Jackson, Mr Stewart Randall, rh Sir John Benton, Mr Joe Engel, Natascha James, Margot Redwood, rh Mr John Berger, Luciana Esterson, Bill Javid, Sajid Rees-Mogg, Jacob Betts, Mr Clive Evans, Chris Jenkin, Mr Bernard Reevell, Simon Blackman-Woods, Roberta Farrelly, Paul Johnson, Gareth Robertson, rh Hugh Blears, rh Hazel Farron, Tim Jones, Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Blomfield, Paul Fitzpatrick, Jim Jones, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Flello, Robert Jones, Mr Marcus Rosindell, Andrew Brennan, Kevin Flint, rh Caroline Kelly, Chris Rudd, Amber Brown, Lyn Fovargue, Yvonne Knight, rh Sir Greg Ruffley, Mr David Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Francis, Dr Hywel Kwarteng, Kwasi Russell, Sir Bob Brown, Mr Russell Galloway, George Lamb, Norman Rutley, David Buck, Ms Karen Gardiner, Barry Lancaster, Mark Sandys, Laura Burden, Richard George, Andrew Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Scott, Mr Lee Burnham, rh Andy Gilmore, Sheila Latham, Pauline Selous, Andrew Byrne, rh Mr Liam Glass, Pat Laws, rh Mr David Shapps, rh Grant Campbell, Mr Alan Glindon, Mrs Mary Leadsom, Andrea Shelbrooke, Alec Campbell, Mr Ronnie Godsiff, Mr Roger Lee, Jessica Shepherd, Sir Richard Caton, Martin Goggins, rh Paul Lee, Dr Phillip Simpson, Mr Keith Champion, Sarah Goodman, Helen Lefroy, Jeremy Skidmore, Chris Chapman, Jenny Greatrex, Tom Lewis, Brandon Smith, Henry Clark, Katy Green, Kate Lewis, Dr Julian Smith, Julian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Greenwood, Lilian Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Smith, Sir Robert Clwyd, rh Ann Griffith, Nia Lidington, rh Mr David Soames, rh Nicholas Coaker, Vernon Gwynne, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Soubry, Anna Connarty, Michael Hain, rh Mr Peter Lord, Jonathan Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Cooper, Rosie Hamilton, Fabian Luff, Peter Stanley, rh Sir John Cooper, rh Yvette Hanson, rh Mr David Main, Mrs Anne Stephenson, Andrew Corbyn, Jeremy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Maude, rh Mr Francis Stevenson, John Crausby, Mr David Harris, Mr Tom May, rh Mrs Theresa Stewart, Bob Creagh, Mary Havard, Mr Dai Maynard, Paul Stewart, Iain Creasy, Stella Healey, rh John McCartney, Jason Streeter, Mr Gary Cruddas, Jon Hendrick, Mark McCartney, Karl Stride, Mel Cryer, John Hepburn, Mr Stephen McIntosh, Miss Anne Stuart, Mr Graham Cunningham, Alex Heyes, David McPartland, Stephen Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Cunningham, Mr Jim Hillier, Meg McVey, Esther Sturdy, Julian Cunningham, Sir Tony Hilling, Julie Menzies, Mark Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Curran, Margaret Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Miller, rh Maria Swinson, Jo Dakin, Nic Hoey, Kate Mills, Nigel Syms, Mr Robert Danczuk, Simon Hopkins, Kelvin Moore, rh Michael Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Darling, rh Mr Alistair Hosie, Stewart Mordaunt, Penny Thurso, John David, Wayne Howarth, rh Mr George Morgan, Nicky Timpson, Mr Edward Davidson, Mr Ian Hunt, Tristram Morris, David Tomlinson, Justin Denham, rh Mr John Irranca-Davies, Huw Mosley, Stephen Tredinnick, David Docherty, Thomas Jackson, Glenda 923 Housing Benefit12 NOVEMBER 2013 Housing Benefit 924
Jamieson, Cathy Qureshi, Yasmin around half a billion pounds a year; regrets any exaggeration and Jarvis, Dan Raynsford, rh Mr misrepresentation of the effects of the policy; recognises the Johnson, Diana Nick inequality of allowing social tenants to receive benefit for a spare Jones, Graham Reed, Mr Jamie bedroom whilst denying this opportunity to private tenants; Jones, Helen Reed, Mr Steve supports the Government’s action to deal with this unfairness Jones, Mr Kevan Reeves, Rachel whilst protecting vulnerable groups such as pensioners and providing Jones, Susan Reynolds, Emma substantial funding through Discretionary Housing Payments Elan Reynolds, Jonathan to local authorities to support other tenants who would otherwise Keeley, Barbara Riordan, Mrs Linda be adversely affected; further notes the Government’s continuing Kendall, Liz Robertson, Angus commitment to monitor the effects of the policy and the use of Discretionary Housing Payments; and welcomes the potential Khan, rh Sadiq Robertson, John beneficial impact of this policy on those living in overcrowded Lazarowicz, Mark Robinson, Mr Geoffrey accommodation and the 2.1 million families on waiting lists. Leslie, Chris Rotheram, Steve Lewell-Buck, Mrs Roy, Mr Frank Emma Roy, Lindsay Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): On a point of order, Lewis, Mr Ivan Ruane, Chris Madam Deputy Speaker. This afternoon in the High Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sawford, Andy Court, there has been a ruling that the charter of Love, Mr Andrew Seabeck, Alison Lucas, Caroline Shannon, Jim fundamental rights is part of domestic law, irrespective MacNeil, Mr Angus Sharma, Mr Virendra of the European Union (Amendment) Act 2008 and Brendan Sheerman, Mr Barry despite what was said at the time. What can be done to Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sheridan, Jim stop this coach and horses going through Acts of Mahmood, Shabana Shuker, Gavin Parliament, invading our supremacy, and what can you Malhotra, Seema Skinner, Mr Dennis and Mr Speaker do to defend this Parliament? Mann, John Slaughter, Mr Andy Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, rh Mr Andrew McCabe, Steve Smith, Angela Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): The McCann, Mr Michael Smith, Nick hon. Gentleman makes his point very well, as ever. McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Owen However, as he knows, that is not a matter for the Chair. McClymont, Gregg Straw, rh Mr Jack McDonald, Andy Stringer, Graham McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Stuart, Ms Gisela Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Further to McDonnell, John Tami, Mark that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it not a McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thomas, Mr Gareth matter for the Chair if the fundamental rights and McGovern, Alison Thornberry, Emily liberties of this great House of Commons are damaged McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Timms, rh Stephen by a foreign court and we can do nothing about it? McKenzie, Mr Iain Trickett, Jon McKinnell, Catherine Meacher, rh Mr Michael Turner, Karl Madam Deputy Speaker: I have just said that it is not Mearns, Ian Twigg, Derek a matter for the Chair. It may be a matter for debate at Twigg, Stephen Miliband, rh Edward some other time, but it is not a matter for the Chair and Vaz, rh Keith Miller, Andrew that was therefore not further to the point of order. Mitchell, Austin Vaz, Valerie Moon, Mrs Madeleine Watson, Mr Tom Morden, Jessica Weir, Mr Mike Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): Morrice, Graeme Whiteford, Dr Eilidh On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Given (Livingston) Williams, Hywel that it was described by the judge in the case as a ruling Morris, Grahame M. Williamson, Chris of constitutional significance which cannot be (Easington) Wilson, Phil underestimated, has a Minister offered any indication Murphy, rh Paul Winnick, Mr David Murray, Ian that they will come to make a statement about this very Winterton, rh Ms grave matter? Nandy, Lisa Rosie O’Donnell, Fiona Wishart, Pete Onwurah, Chi Wood, Mike Madam Deputy Speaker: I have ruled that this is not a Osborne, Sandra Woodcock, John Owen, Albert matter for the Chair. The hon. Gentleman knows that it Wright, David Pearce, Teresa is not a matter for the Chair. The point will undoubtedly Wright, Mr Iain Perkins, Toby be brought to this Chamber at another time. Phillipson, Bridget Tellers for the Noes: Pound, Stephen Heidi Alexander and Powell, Lucy Tom Blenkinsop
Question accordingly agreed to. DEFERRED DIVISIONS Madam Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2). Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 41A(3)), Resolved, That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A That this House notes the substantial structural deficit which (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of was inherited from the previous Government and the need to get Mr David Lidington relating to the EU and Ukraine.—(Mark the nation’s finances back into shape; further notes the need to Lancaster.) bring expenditure on housing benefit under control; further notes that the proposed reversal of this policy would cost the Exchequer Question agreed to. 925 12 NOVEMBER 2013 Business without Debate 926
Business without Debate Longton, has become a wildlife sanctuary but, sadly, the local authority is unwilling to rule it out for possible future development. EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS The petition states: Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Order No. 119(11)), ensures that this land is not to be sold for any development, and is only to be kept and maintained for leisure purposes, in line with THE EU AND UKRAINE the requirements of the Public Open Space order. That this House takes note of Unnumbered Explanatory Following is the full text of the petition; Memorandum submitted by the Foreign and Commonwealth [The Petition of residents of Stoke-on-Trent, Office, dated 9 October 2013, on a draft Council Decision on the signing, on behalf of the European Union, and provisional Declares that land transferred to Stoke-on-Trent City application of the Association Agreement between the European Council by the Highways Agency in 1997, to compensate Union and its Member States and Ukraine, with the exception of for the loss of public space from the construction of the the provisions relating to the treatment of third-country nationals A50 road, should retain its intended usage and function as legally employed as workers in the territory of the other party, a a public space. The land in question, near to Astro Grove, draft Council Decision on the signing, on behalf of the European in Longton, Stoke-on-Trent, exists as a Public Open Space Union, of the Association Agreement between the European (POS) and thus restrictions are in place to limit its usage Union and its Member States and Ukraine as regards the provisions relating to the treatment of third-country nationals legally employed and to prevent development on the site. Stoke-on-Trent as workers in the territory of the other party, a draft Council City Council has also received funding to carry out Decision on the conclusion of the Association Agreement between appropriate landscape treatment on this site in order to the European Union and its Member States and Ukraine, with retain its function. the exception of the provisions relating to the treatment of The Petitioners therefore request that the House of third-country nationals legally employed as workers in the territory Commons ensures that this land is not to be sold for any of the other party, and a draft Council Decision on the conclusion, on behalf of the European Union, of the Association Agreement development, and is only to be kept and maintained for between the European Union and its Member States and Ukraine leisure purposes, in line with the requirements of the as regards the provisions relating to the treatment of third-country Public Open Space order. nationals legally employed as workers in the territory of the other And the Petitioners remain, etc.] party; and supports the Government’s aim of using the Association Agreement between the EU, its Member States and Ukraine to [P001285] embed sustainable reform, security and prosperity in Ukraine and Safety of the A682 (Barrowford, Lancashire) the eastern neighbourhood.—(Mark Lancaster.) Question agreed to. 7.29 pm PETITIONS Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I want to present to the House of Commons a petition from the residents Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting, of Barrowford, Lancashire. Sri Lanka The petition states: 7.27 pm The Petition of residents of Barrowford, Lancashire, Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): With your Declares that the petitioners believe the A682 next to Barrowford Primary School presents a danger to the safety of the children permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, and on behalf of that attend the school and others who live nearby, as the road gets my constituents Sam Morris and Mr T. Murugadas and busy during the times that children are picked up and dropped off 357 other residents of Ealing North, I wish to present a to go to school. petition concerning the Commonwealth Heads of The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Government meeting due to be held next week in Sri Lanka. urge Lancashire County Council to place a zebra crossing on the The petition states: A682 near to Barrowford Primary School, perpendicular to Rushton The Humble Petition of residents of the Ealing North Constituency, Street and opposite the nearby Spar shop. Sheweth, And the Petitioners remain, etc. That the island of Sri Lanka is still experiencing the after [P001288] effects of the recent war. Planning Applications for Solar PV Farms on Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House formally state their opinion that this country should not be Greenfield Land (Braintree, Essex) represented at the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting while so many issues are unresolved and so many people are still 7.30 pm displaced as a result of this conflict. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c. Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): Solar photovoltaic farms are a blight on the English countryside, [P001284] never more so than in the northern part of my constituency, Development of a Public Open Space near Astro Grove where up to 300 acres of solar PV farms are being (Longton, Stoke-on-Trent) considered. I therefore present this petition on behalf of the residents of Foxearth and Liston, Belchamp Saint 7.28 pm Paul and Belchamp Otten, and Pentlow parishes in the Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I have a great and beautiful county of Essex. petition signed by 1,000 or so constituents who are The petition states: concerned that land given to Stoke-on-Trent city council The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons by the Highways Agency to compensate for public open urges the Department of Energy and Climate Change to refuse all space taken by the A50 when it was built is now under planning applications to build on sites where Solar PV farms will threat. The land, near Astro grove and Power grove in be developed. 927 Business without Debate12 NOVEMBER 2013 Business without Debate 928
[Mr Brooks Newmark] on local cases. Local people want to see criminals held to account for the crimes they commit in Dudley. Following is the full text of the petition: The petition states: [The Petition of residents of Foxearth and Liston, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Belchamp Saint Pauls and Belchamp Otten, and Pentlow to urge the Ministry of Justice to stop criminal cases moving from Parishes, Essex, Dudley Magistrates Court to criminal courts in Wolverhampton, Declares that the Petitioners object to the siting of Sandwell and Walsall. Solar PV farms because they will exceed the 50 megawatt Following is the full text of the petition: limitation as set out in the Town and Country Planning [The Petition of residents of Dudley, Act 1990 thus requiring consideration by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change; further that these Declares that there are plans to move all criminal cases sites involve Grade II agricultural land which is within the from Dudley Magistrates Court to courts in Wolverhampton, top 21 per cent of agricultural land in the country and Sandwell and Walsall; further that the Petitioners believe protected as such under the National Planning Policy justice should be seen to be done locally as it will be Framework; further that the Department of Communities harder for local victims to testify, harder for local people and Local Government issued in July 2013 planning to volunteer in court and harder for the press to deter guidance which referred to the requirements to consider crime by reporting on local cases; and further that moving technology and potential impacts on the local environment; the work of Dudley Magistrates Court may lead to current further that there is an absence of locational need and a employees being made redundant or forced to move. site search has not been fully carried out; further that the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of impact of the developments will be extensive and will Commons to urge the Ministry of Justice to stop criminal include a two metre security fence on Greenfield land with cases moving from Dudley Magistrates Court to criminal significant consequences on the surrounding countryside; courts in Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Walsall. further that on two of the proposed sites a Grade I listed And the Petitioners remain, etc.] church and several Grade II listed houses will be overlooked; [P001291] and further that the proposals are intended to last for 25 years but during that time they will effectively preclude Safety of Headland Road, Leicester agricultural use and will degrade the land and will impact 7.33 pm upon the sites and surrounding areas. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May I say, Madam The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Deputy Speaker, what a pleasure it is to present my first Commons urges the Department of Energy and Climate petition under your watchful eye? Change to refuse all planning applications to build on sites where Solar PV farms will be developed. Last Friday, in the company of Councillor Baljit Singh and Councillor Deepak Bajaj, I met Linden And the Petitioners remain, etc.] primary school and nearby residents who were concerned [P001290] about traffic calming measures outside the school. They Dudley Magistrates Court presented me with a petition with 414 signatures urging the Department for Communities and Local Government, 7.31 pm with Leicester city council, to implement a 20 mph Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): The petition calls speed limit. on Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service to drop The petition states: proposals to close our criminal courts, which would The Petition of residents of the UK, leave Dudley the largest town in the UK without a Declares that the proposed traffic calming measures on Headland criminal court. The fact that 2,000 people have signed Road in Leicester are vital in ensuring the safety of local school our petition in just a few weeks shows how strongly children at Linden Primary School. local people feel. I record my thanks to magistrates and The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons former magistrates, including Colin Knipe, Chris Smith urges the Department for Communities and Local Government and Barbara Sykes, for their help and advice. Magistrates, and Leicester City Council to implement the proposed measures, victims, witnesses and others directly involved with the including the 20 mile per hour speed limit without delay and court tell me that closure would make it harder for local before the next designated review of traffic calming measures. victims to testify, harder for local people to volunteer in And the Petitioners remain, etc. court and harder for the press to deter crime by reporting [P001292] 929 12 NOVEMBER 2013 Hearing Loss in Adulthood 930
Hearing Loss in Adulthood A 2006 study estimated that unemployment resulting from hearing loss cost the UK economy £13 billion a Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House year. Too many people are forced to resign, retire or do now adjourn.—(Mark Lancaster.) face redundancy as a result of their disability. People with hearing impairment report that their employers 7.34 pm often have a passive attitude, providing adjustments Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I am and support only when prompted, and a significant glad that we are debating an issue that affects all our number face outright discrimination. constituencies, and I know that it is a matter of real Of the 300,000 people of working age with severe concern to many Members in this House and in the hearing impairment, 20% report that they are unemployed other place. and are seeking work. Another 10% report that they I would like to begin by paying tribute to the work of cannot seek work as a result of their condition. As the the Ear Foundation, a cochlear implant support charity state pension age rises and more jobs depend on in my constituency. I was glad to secure the debate, and communication skills than was the case 20 or 30 years I hope that it will draw attention to the vital work it ago, that vulnerability to unemployment is a growing does to support adults and children with hearing loss. problem. It represents a worrying underuse of the economic capacity of the nation. One in six people in the UK experience hearing loss, and seven in 10 can expect to be affected by the time Despite the scale and impact of hearing loss in the they reach their 70th birthday. That means that 10 million UK, adults with profound and severe hearing problems people live with hearing loss, and an ageing population face major challenges when accessing health services. means that that number will rise in the years ahead. To For many people, even seeing their GP can be a challenge, communicate is to be part of society. Losing one’s especially when surgeries rely on telephone booking hearing is not just about the absence of sound—if not systems and do not use visual display screens. One in addressed, hearing loss can result in the loss of our seven respondents to an Action on Hearing Loss survey social life, cutting us off from family, friends and work. reported missing the call for their appointment while sitting in the waiting room. Poor deaf awareness among Deafness in adulthood is linked to depression, health professionals, such as not looking directly at a unemployment, poor mental and physical health and an patient to allow for lip-reading, can lead to patients increased risk of other conditions, including dementia. with hearing loss feeling unclear about the medical Hearing loss is a constant condition, and in most cases advice or information provided. According to the same there is no cure. It is no exaggeration to say that it can survey, 28% of people with hearing loss have been destroy lives. People with hearing loss can find it difficult unclear about a medical diagnosis and 19% have been to negotiate everyday challenges in the workplace, on unclear about their medication. the bus, at the supermarket, or in the local doctor’s surgery, leading to isolation, exclusion and frustration. Diagnosis of hearing loss among adults is too often down to chance. Many are reluctant to seek help, and Research carried out by Action on Hearing Loss has evidence suggests that people wait an average of 10 years found that adults who lose their hearing are likely to before doing so. Stigma is a key factor in this delay in withdraw from social activities. When they do take part, taking up hearing aids, which makes some people unwilling communication difficulties can result in feelings of to tell others about their hearing loss. An Action on loneliness. Hearing loss can also damage personal Hearing Loss report found that one element of stigma relationships. Many deaf people find it difficult to join is the fear that deaf people are seen as less capable. A in with family conversations and jokes. Couples say that 2005 MORI poll of more than 20,000 people showed they feel more distant from their friends, and partners that one in five expressed concern about being treated of people with a hearing problem describe feelings of differently. loneliness and frustration. Travelling on public transport becomes a challenge, and a platform alteration or a Earlier diagnosis is essential to ensuring that people delayed connection can be a major problem if someone with hearing loss can access the support and services misses the announcement. That can leave deaf people that can help them best manage their condition. A feeling anxious and vulnerable when travelling, and hearing screening programme for people aged 65 would worried about being stranded or lost. The debate among help to overcome some of the barriers that prevent policy makers focuses mainly on quality-of-life issues, people from addressing their hearing loss. I pay tribute but failure to address hearing problems has implications to the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd), for society as a whole. who has led the Hearing Screening for Life campaign. Research by the consultancy London Economics suggests Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I have sought the that such a programme would represent good value for hon. Lady’s permission to intervene in the debate. In money, so will the Minister consider establishing a pilot Northern Ireland, 300,000 adults experience deafness hearing screening programme? or tinnitus—a sixth of the population, which is similar There are approximately 4 million people with to the rest of the United Kingdom. Does she agree that undiagnosed hearing loss in the UK who could benefit a UK-wide strategy—and perhaps the Minister would from hearing aids or, in a smaller number of cases, a respond to this—would benefit the core of the community cochlear implant. However, research suggests that GPs across the United Kingdom, especially people with deafness? are often reluctant to refer patients for assessment or lack the knowledge to do so. Forty-five per cent. of Lilian Greenwood: I thank the hon. Gentleman for patients presenting hearing loss symptoms are not referred, his intervention. He is quite right: these are issues that so something is clearly amiss. GPs’ lack of awareness of affect the whole of society, and I hope that the Minister the impacts of deafness in general and a lack of knowledge will respond positively to his suggestion. of the benefits of cochlear implantation in particular 931 Hearing Loss in Adulthood12 NOVEMBER 2013 Hearing Loss in Adulthood 932
[Lilian Greenwood] The late Lord Ashley, who is remembered and was rightly held in extremely high regard by many in this give rise to concern. Greater education of GPs and place, was known to call his cochlear implant a miracle. audiologists on hearing technologies and the potential Surely it is time that everyone who needs a cochlear benefits of cochlear implantation for adult patients is implant had access to their own miracle. There are an therefore vital. I would be grateful if the Minister estimated 100,000 people with profound hearing loss, updated the House on the Government’s plans to ensure and 360,000 with severe loss. Although it is difficult to that training and updating on hearing technologies is determine the exact number of adults who need an implant, provided consistently across the country. on any of the current measures of profound deafness Despite the obvious need, there is relatively little the current level of provision for cochlear implantation recognition of the impact of hearing loss or of the latest would appear to be significantly below any predictions technologies that can improve hearing. We know that of need. hearing aids improve adults’ health-related quality of The Ear Foundation suggests that as few as 5% of life by reducing the psychological, social and emotional adults who might be able to benefit from an implant are effects of hearing loss. For those who are severely or currently getting one, and the UK is fitting only half the profoundly deaf, and for whom hearing aids offer little number of implants in adults as Germany and Austria. benefit, cochlear implants offer the chance of useful hearing. Speaking at last month’s Westminster launch of the Ear Foundation report “Adult Cochlear Implantation”, Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way; Dr Andrew Dunlop, a GP who suffered sudden hearing she is being very gracious. One of the issues that have loss himself, described his own experience of deafness, come to my attention as an elected representative is that undergoing assessment and receiving a cochlear implant. hearing aids are sometimes thought of as a big thing He said: attached to the ear, but thanks to the advance of technology “I was fortunate, that as a healthcare professional, I knew my hearing aids are very small now. Perhaps that means way around the system and was not overwhelmed when dealing that cosmetically they are less noticeable, and people with fellow doctors, audiologists and consultants. Sadly, the story can have the implant and lead a normal life. Is that one for less informed individuals is not quite the same. My return to of the things that the hon. Lady feels should happen? Practice emphasized to me just how much of an iceberg of unmet need is within the community at large, with many very able Lilian Greenwood: My hon. Friend is right. There is a individuals assuming wrongly that they have no options after optimal provision of hearing aids and seem reduced to a second need to increase awareness of what a cochlear implant class life of social isolation, loss of self-esteem and frequently is, how it operates and even what it looks like. unemployment.” Despite the digital revolution in the NHS, in which Today’s debate is my attempt to chip away at that high quality hearing aids are now routinely fitted, there iceberg. remains an under-utilisation of implants for adults, notwithstanding comparable advances in implant The criteria for implants are set by the National technology. One person who has benefited is Abigail Institute for Health and Care Excellence, with guidance from Nottingham, who found her implant an enormous last reviewed in 2011. However, the criteria are based on benefit to her life. She was born deaf and grew up evidence from patients who were predominantly wearing wearing two hearing aids until her hearing deteriorated, technology from the late 1990s, and since then there and doctors told her that hearing aids were no longer of have been significant advances in cochlear implant benefit to her. Following detailed and intensive assessment technology. Many clinicians would argue that the criteria she was approved for an implant, and when this was do not reflect real world listening, and that more realistic switched on it gave her new-found confidence. It rebuilt tests should be deployed instead. her self-esteem, enabling her to communicate more Since the last review, there have been supportive comfortably with her husband, family, friends and studies on the effectiveness of bilateral implants—one colleagues. Having a cochlear implant has given her a implant for each ear—which NICE believes provide too new lease of life, without having to rely on others to little benefit for adults to justify NHS funding. One help her with communication, such as by telephone. It patient who was refused implantation described the has also helped her immensely at work, where she can process as follows: now communicate with colleagues on an easier level. It “The conditions they did the testing in were ideal. It was has helped her gain promotion and do a job that she perfect but they made no allowance for the difficulties you get if enjoys. The cochlear implant has enabled her to get on somebody is talking from the side, or if there is any background with life at home, at work and socially, and with her noise…and of course under those circumstances you do very well hobbies, including music. She also does volunteering and it makes no allowances for the problems you run into in real work in the community. life.” A cochlear implant stimulates the hearing nerve by In addition, the use of sentence tests, rather than means of rapid electrical impulses, which bypass the monosyllabic words, enables deafened adults to use non-functional inner ear in people who are severely or their previous linguistic knowledge to complete the test, profoundly deaf. Sounds heard with a cochlear implant thus appearing to have hearing that is too good for are not the same as those heard with a human ear, but cochlear implantation. Brian Lam and Sue Archbold, with the right support a person with a cochlear implant authors of the Ear Foundation report, conclude that can adapt to the novel signal and use their implant to there is an urgent need to look at the deployment of a understand speech and other sounds, much like normal wider range of tests. They also argue that testing in listening. One cochlear implant recipient said: noise and assessment of performance with monosyllabic “I feel that so much of my previous life and true self has been words would be more appropriate. This would reflect restored, regaining my pride and ability to contribute actively in current practice in Germany, where criteria are more society on an equal basis.” flexible. 933 Hearing Loss in Adulthood12 NOVEMBER 2013 Hearing Loss in Adulthood 934
A growing body of evidence indicates that bilateral that will become increasingly common because of our implants provide added improvements in speech perception aging population, but for many others hearing loss is in noisy environments over unilateral implantation, and acquired and should therefore be avoidable. better sound localisation, leading to improved quality The World Health Organisation considers half of all of life. The Ear Foundation has recommended that cases of hearing loss to be preventable—for example, by NICE review its current guidance on cochlear implantation, immunisation, early treatment or reducing exposure to and in particular on the criteria for unilateral and noise. In fact, it identifies exposure to excessive noise as bilateral implants for adults. Will the Minister look into the major avoidable cause of permanent hearing impairment this matter and consider asking NICE to conduct such worldwide. In developed countries, it is at least partially a review? Does he agree that where a clinician believes responsible for more than a third of all hearing impairments. that it is in the best interests of an individual patient, As a result of the UK’s aging population, the impact of there should be some discretion in applying these guidelines? working with noisy machinery and exposure to loud Charities in the field have welcomed the Department music and other loud noises, the World Health Organisation of Health’s development of a national hearing loss predicts that by 2030 there will be an estimated 14.5 million action plan, but they are disappointed that it has been people in the UK with hearing loss, and adult-onset delayed by a year. I join those charities in urging the hearing loss will be among the UK’s top 10 disease Government to prioritise its publication. Last month burdens. That demonstrates the scale of the concern. the noble Baroness Jolly stated in the other place that We have to take hearing loss seriously, which is why the Government aim to publish the action plan as soon we are currently looking to develop the action plan on as possible. I would be grateful if the Minister updated hearing loss, which the hon. Lady mentioned, so that the House on when it will be published and how its we can achieve better outcomes for all those with hearing implementation will be monitored. Has he assessed the loss and related conditions. The action plan will identify suggestion of establishing a lead commissioner for audiology key actions that will make a real difference in improving so that there is greater focus on good commissioning health and social care outcomes for children, young across all clinical commissioning groups? people and adults with hearing loss and generally improving The right hon. Member for Gordon (Sir Malcolm the hearing health of the population. Bruce), who chairs the all-party group on deafness, last The Department of Health is engaging with a range month challenged the Government, and any Government of organisations in developing this action plan, and as who come after them, no longer to leave deaf people Baroness Jolly mentioned, we aim to publish it as soon behind. Today I echo those words. I hope that the as possible. I will get back to the hon. Lady with an Government can help move this issue, which affects all indication of the likely publication day. It is time that our constituencies, beyond debate and ensure that action we set a target date and then focused minds on getting it is taken to address it. published.
7.50 pm Jim Shannon: We have a UK-wide diabetes strategy, The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman and in my intervention on the hon. Member for Nottingham Lamb): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship South (Lilian Greenwood) I suggested a UK-wide strategy for the first time, Madam Deputy Speaker. I congratulate on deafness as well. Will the Minister consider that? the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) on securing the debate and championing Norman Lamb: My responsibilities stretch only to this cause. I will state at the start that I am very happy England, but clear co-ordination and joint working to maintain a dialogue with her on this, because she has with the devolved Administrations absolutely makes made a powerful case and clearly a lot of progress could sense on an issue that transcends borders, so I agree be made not only by the Government, but across the with the ambition that the hon. Gentleman sets. health and care system. I am happy to assist in that This cannot just be about prevention because that is regard. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member not always possible; it is also about dealing with the for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd), who has done a lot of consequences of hearing loss. The Government are work in championing this cause, as the hon. Lady committed to delivering health outcomes that are among mentioned, and the Ear Foundation for its work on this the best in the world for people with hearing loss. We important issue. are developing measures to identify those with hearing The hon. Lady made a good case for why this is so loss as early as possible, including the roll-out of a important. She talked about the importance of basic national hearing screening programme for newborn communication and the fact that hearing loss can affect babies that enables the early identification of deafness, mental health as well as physical health and lead to providing a clear care pathway for services and allowing withdrawal from social activities. She talked about the parents to make informed choices on communication cost to society, the impact on employment and the fact needs. that there is poor deaf awareness among health professionals Today, however, we are focusing on adults with hearing and that better training is needed. I absolutely agree loss. I realise that there is currently considerable interest with her on all those points. on hearing loss screening for adults, which the hon. Over 10 million adults in England are living with Lady mentioned. The UK National Screening Committee hearing loss. Some of them will have been among the advises Ministers and the NHS in all four countries on one in 700 babies in England born with hearing loss, but all aspects of screening policy. Using research evidence, many will be among the growing number who develop a pilot programmes and economic evaluation, it assesses hearing impairment during their lifetimes. For some the evidence for programmes against a set of internationally people that will be the sort of age-related hearing loss recognised criteria. In 2009, the committee recommended that many of us will experience as we grow older and that routine screening for adults’ hearing loss should 935 Hearing Loss in Adulthood12 NOVEMBER 2013 Hearing Loss in Adulthood 936
[Norman Lamb] are geared up to help and support them. Public authorities, including health and social care bodies, are required by not be offered because of a lack of evidence to warrant the Equality Act 2010 to make reasonable adjustments such a screening programme. However, as part of its for disabled people, to ensure that they can use a service three-year review policy cycle, the committee is reviewing as close as is reasonably possible to the standard usually the evidence for a national adult hearing screening offered to everyone else. The Department of Health has programme. A public consultation will be held shortly agreed to explore with its partners what more can be and details will be available on the committee’s website. done to accommodate the communication needs of I encourage the Ear Foundation and many others to disabled service users. contribute to that consultation. Work is going on across the Government to support We welcome the recent report by the Ear Foundation, the needs of people with hearing loss. The Department which clearly sets out the benefits of cochlear implants for Transport’s Access for All programme has delivered for children and adults. Abigail’s story, as told by the access improvements at 1,100 stations since 2006, including hon. Lady, demonstrates what a massive impact that induction loops at ticket offices and help points on can have on an individual’s life. It completely transformed platforms. The hon. Member for Nottingham South her life, and no doubt that experience is repeated very mentioned the specific problems that people face when many times around the country. The report will be of travelling and the anxiety caused by worrying about not enormous use to NICE if it decides to update the hearing an announcement. There will be facilities on technology appraisal that it published in 2009. I encourage platforms for deaf users and systems that show train the Ear Foundation to engage with NICE. I am sure information on LED display screens. Last year, a further that it is already in touch, but it is very important for it £100 million was announced to extend the programme to provide any emerging evidence to NICE to help it to until 2019. update, if necessary, the guidance provided on implants. Courthouses have been provided with hearing loops A large number of services are already commissioned since December 2012. In policing, police link officers for people with hearing loss, and a number of specialist for deaf or hard-of-hearing people use and are qualified centres in England provide implants for children and in British sign language and work with the community adults. It is important that GPs understand the criteria to raise awareness of how to access the police. Staff in for referral, as well as the obvious benefits of this Derbyshire have passed level 1 of their training with technology for people with hearing loss. That touches Action on Hearing Loss, and they accepted an Action on the hon. Lady’s point about the importance of on Hearing Loss charter mark, “Louder than Words”, health professionals, whether GPs or anyone else in the recognising the efforts they have made to communicate health system, gaining a better understanding of the more effectively with deaf people. I pay tribute to those potential for this technology. There have been considerable parts of the public sector that have made the effort to improvements to services for people with hearing loss in improve the way in which they communicate. Far more recent years, including reduced waits for assessment needs to be done, but they are the exemplars that others and treatment to within 18 weeks—a significant advance. should follow. For those who do not use BSL, text relay, which enables deaf and hard-of-hearing people to text Lilian Greenwood: I thank the Minister for his positive the police, is in place in most emergency call centres. response to the questions that I posed. What will he I hope that those examples give a flavour of some of personally do to ensure that such training and updating the work that is being done across the public sector and on hearing technologies by health professionals and confirm the Government’s continued commitment not GPs takes place? only to preventing, but to treating hearing loss and promoting and protecting those affected. Norman Lamb: I do not want to give a bland answer, but I take this issue very seriously. I have noted what the Lilian Greenwood: Will the Minister give way? hon. Lady has said. Health Education England is responsible for the training of health professionals. I Norman Lamb: The hon. Lady is just in time. will pursue the hon. Lady’s point and would be very happy to report back to her. Lilian Greenwood: Before the Minister concludes his There is now a greater choice of hearing aid services speech, will he address my specific suggestion to establish through independent high street providers—which are a lead commissioner for audiology, to ensure that there easily accessible for members of the public—and the is a focus on good commissioning across the health new any-qualified-provider commissioning model offers service? even greater choice and convenience. We have also asked NICE to produce clinical guidelines Norman Lamb: I will discuss that suggestion with and related quality standards for the assessment and NHS England, because that is its responsibility under management of adult-onset hearing loss and guidelines the new design of the health system. for the assessment and management of tinnitus, which Let me end by congratulating the hon. Lady again on the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has raising this really important issue, and I repeat that I am referred to in the context of Northern Ireland. Those happy to engage with her to try to make progress. guidelines will be scheduled into NICE’s development Question put and agreed to. programme over the coming months. Enabling those with hearing loss to have the same opportunities and to live as independently as everyone 8.3 pm else is essential. It is therefore vital that public services House adjourned. 187WH 12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 188WH
are blaming the current Government. Will the hon. Westminster Hall Lady tell me exactly how many train companies were renationalised in the 13 years of the Labour Government?
Tuesday 12 November 2013 Mrs Hodgson: We are not talking about the renationalisation of the east coast main line—it has already been nationalised—but about how to stop it [MR PETER BONE in the Chair] from being re-privatised. The point is that it is already in national ownership.
East Coast Main Line Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab): Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important be now adjourned.—(Stephen Crabb.) debate. I suggest that there have been many changes at East Coast in the past few years. In fact, for the first time in a long time, it seems to working well, to the 9.30 am point that the east coast main line has a record level of Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland customer satisfaction. The company has won 13 industry West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your awards since 2012, including as Britain’s top employer. chairmanship, Mr Bone. It has been brought to my It is surely endorsement enough that so many Opposition attention that today’s debate coincides with the beginning Members who travel on East Coast trains week in, week of a new documentary series on Sky about East Coast out want to fight for it to remain as it is and against trains and the staff who work on them, so I want to changing it again. assure you that the only interest I have to declare is as a regular traveller on East Coast trains and as an MP Mrs Hodgson: That is the point—the east coast main whose constituents are similarly frequent travellers; I line does not need to change. The process might ultimately definitely do not have an interest as a public relations lead to a significantly worse deal for all our constituents, executive for East Coast or BSkyB. The reason why my as well as for the Exchequer, when there is absolutely no colleagues and I wanted this debate was not to promote need to go down such a path. that programme, but to discuss developments in a process As I and others said in the last debate, East Coast is that will have a significant impact on the staff and doing very well under the current arrangement, both for travellers featured in it. passengers and the Exchequer. Since the failure of It has been just over five months since we discussed National Express, thousands more services have been the plans in a debate in this Chamber called by my hon. timetabled; hundreds of thousands more passengers Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald). have used services; significant investment has been made As I did then, I pay tribute to hon. Members who have in passenger comfort and stations, including at Newcastle; led the campaign in Parliament so successfully, particularly customer satisfaction has been at record highs, my hon. Friends the Members for Edinburgh East notwithstanding the recent blip; and complaints have (Sheila Gilmore), who is in her place, and for City of been handled in a timely way 98% of the time, compared Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods). I thought and with 73% of the time under private ownership. hoped that the strength of feeling and argument shown then, and in debates since, might have caused the Karl McCartney: Will the hon. Lady give way? Government at least to enter one of their now trademark pauses. There is still time for them to do so. In fact, we Mrs Hodgson: No, I will not. I will make some have not seen a pause, a rethink or any evidence that progress, because many hon. Members want to speak. they are listening to the chorus of opposition to their This is the people’s railway. It is delivering real plans, even among their own voters. improvements for our constituents, unencumbered by the primary purpose of having to pay dividends. That is Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I am sure my hon. not to say that Directly Operated Railways is squandering Friend will make a powerful speech in favour of the millions on such trivial things as improving the experience east coast main line. Is it not a fact that only about of their customers and therefore winning more of them; one in five—21%—of the general public supports the it is also chipping in a lot of money to the Exchequer. re-privatisation of the east coast main line, so why is By the end of this financial year, it will have returned Tory dogma prevailing? £800 million to the Treasury and put the rest of its surplus of nearly £50 million back into the service. It of Mrs Hodgson: That is a very good question, which course gets the lowest rates of public subsidy of all the the Minister will perhaps answer. For all of us here and train operators, except London commuter services. our constituents, that is the question, and our only answer is that dogma and ideology are forcing Ministers have always talked about the need for a re-privatisation to go ahead. The Government have private operator to bring in extra investment, but have pressed on regardless, and the tendering process is well failed to make clear how much will be brought in by this under way, which is why my colleagues and I thought it process. What investment we know about appears to was time for another debate. come from the public purse. Just as with Royal Mail, Ministers seem to be privatising the profit, while keeping Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): It is a pleasure to the ongoing costs on the public books. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. The hon. The Minister will say that decisions should not be Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) made an interesting taken on the basis of ideology, and to an extent I agree, intervention in which he mentioned that the Opposition although I must of course confess to having a default 189WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 190WH
[Mrs Hodgson] those countries. If we are to achieve the modal shift from cars to rail that we need to ease pressure on our opinion when it comes to the ownership of public trunk roads and to reduce carbon emissions, we must services. However, the returns to the Treasury and the have the investment and the ambitious targets and improvements in services provide the business case in standards in place to ensure that services are reliable support of our argument that the line should remain and can carry on improving. Unfortunately, it appears directly operated. Perhaps that is why nearly half of that the Government intend to put that improvement Tory voters oppose the Government plans. If anyone is into reverse over the next few years. guilty of ideological decision making on this issue, it is It was brought to my attention yesterday that in the surely the Government. past couple of weeks, the Office of Rail Regulation has As if the west coast main line shambles, which cost published a document setting out the desired outputs taxpayers £55 million, was not bad enough, the contract for the whole rail network for the next five-year control extensions for other franchises—the Government have period. That document makes it clear that the standards had to negotiate them so that they could bring forward expected of whichever company wins the east coast the east coast main line tender—will cost taxpayers franchise will be significantly lower than the national millions more in lost revenue. For example, First Great average, and possibly even lower than those of most Western paid £126 million in premiums last year, but European routes. For example, the national standard will pay only £17 million next year, as a result of the for cancelled or seriously late trains—which I have had extension terms it has been given by the Government. some experience of on the east coast over the past Ministers are actually throwing money away hand over month: the fault for that lay not with the company but fist, just so they can make a point of privatising a with all the storms and so on—is no more than 2.2% of franchise that they know is doing perfectly well in journeys. The east coast’s standard will be 4.2%.The public hands. national standard for just mildly late trains, which can be anything between 10 minutes and two hours, will be Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): My hon. Friend is 8.1% in the first year. For the east coast, it will be 17%, making an excellent speech. Is it not ironic that the which is more than double the national standard, and Government want to return the east coast main line to equates to more than one in six journeys. That rate will the private sector when it is clearly succeeding very well be required to come down to 12% by 2018-19, but it will in the public sector, while the private sector has failed still be much higher than the national rate of 7.5%. twice on that line? Over the control period, we could see an additional 15,500 trains officially late and more than 2,500 trains Mrs Hodgson: That is exactly the point. Despite all cancelled without the operator being deemed to be the evidence to the contrary, the Government clearly do breaching its required standards. Why should the east not think that a state-owned company can run the coast be given a lower standard? It is way below what franchise viably and deliver the investment in service the public would expect, and way below the standards improvements that we want. set by Labour for the current control period. The apparent How ironic it is that many of the probable bidders for loosening of the required standards does not appear in the service are subsidiaries of state-owned railways. any of the preceding documents on which the public Eurostar and Keolis have confirmed that they will team have been consulted, but has now appeared at a point up to bid for the franchise. As the Minister will be when they can no longer have their say. Will the Minister aware, those two companies are majority-owned by the explain why the standards are set so low and have been National Society of French Railways—SNCF—which revealed in a document on which the public will not be is France’s state-owned operator. Arriva, which already consulted? Will he give us an assurance today that that operates so many franchises, including the Tyne and is in no way linked to the tendering process, or the Wear Metro in the north-east, and has received much Government’s desire to get the most money for the Government investment over the past few years, will franchise to hold up as a sign of success? If we move probably throw its hat into the ring. It is of course the goalposts and make things easier for whichever owned by Deutsche Bahn. Abellio, which, with Serco, train operator comes in, it makes the deal more attractive runs Northern Rail trains in my area, might well be to them, and that is what seems to be going on here. tempted. It is a part of the Dutch state-owned rail If the Government are to go through with the operator. The Government are therefore quite happy privatisation, it is important that the Exchequer get as for the east coast main line to be run for public benefit—just much cash as possible now and over the course of the as long as the British public do not benefit. contract. However, we cannot sacrifice performance standards to achieve that goal, because people will just Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ give up on trains that are allowed to be late on one in Co-op): Does not the way in which contracts are handed six, one in seven or even one in eight journeys. out to such foreign, state-owned companies mean that If the proposal is not linked to the tendering taxpayers in the Netherlands, France and Germany will process, perhaps it is related to the fact that investment gain at the expense of British ones? in tackling congestion over the coming control period will be less than half the £500 million that the Labour Mrs Hodgson: Yes, I agree. That is exactly the Government allocated. That investment has resulted in point. Instead of profits generated by the franchise improvements in north London, flyovers at Doncaster benefiting British commuters through investment in and Hitchin, and the upgrading of a parallel route for service improvement and dividends to the Treasury, slow freight between Doncaster and Peterborough. Will the Government prefer profits to be channelled to other the Minister assure us that service standards are not European countries, in some cases to subsidise fares in being lowered to match the investment the Government 191WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 192WH are prepared to make? Our constituents rightly expect is spent by the Department and the companies that not just a punctual service but a decent service, particularly might bid. They should accept that this experiment in when they might be on the train for three or four hours public ownership, forced upon a reluctant Secretary of or more when travelling to or from the north-east or State at the time by the failure of a private provider, has Scotland—it can take up to six hours to get all the way been a success and can continue to be a success. up to Inverness. Will the Minister rule out the introduction of a Karl McCartney: Will the hon. Lady give way? lower-tier or third-class service, which is allegedly in the prospectus that was sent to potential bidders? Indeed, Mrs Hodgson: No, I am just winding up. I am sure will he rule out any degradation of standard-class service the hon. Gentleman will get his chance to speak in a in a three-class system by a future operator? moment. Most importantly, it is time for the Government to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport put British passengers and taxpayers first, before taking (Stephen Hammond): There is no suggestion of a third-class profits out of the system—especially where such profits service in the prospectus. One version of the document then go to subsidise passengers in other countries. As I was leaked, but even that did not refer to a third class, said in June, I hope the Minister will listen to what but to the possibility of a service between standard and parliamentarians are telling him here today. We have first class. Some might like to call it premium economy. already had the shambles over the west coast main line. No one has ever called it third class. Can we just lay that It is in everyone’s interests for the Government not to myth to rest? make the wrong decision on the east coast main line as well. Let us call off the tender and give Directly Operated Mrs Hodgson: I am sure the Minister is aware that the Railways the stability and support it needs to carry on National Society of French Railways introduced a “no improving services and sending much-needed cash back frills” service in France this year, below standard class. to the Treasury. At the very least, let us allow it to bid to If Keolis and Eurostar win the contract, will he guarantee run the service again in the coming years, and weigh up that we will not see the same here? I am happy to give the public benefit that that would provide in a fair and way to the Minister if he wants to make that guarantee open way. Come on, Minister: it is public versus private. now; perhaps he will make it in his closing remarks. By Surely he is up for that. way of assurance, perhaps he could place a copy of the document in question in the Library. I know he said 9.49 am that such a claim was never in the document, but if there is such a document, could he place it in the Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) Library so the public can see that we are not being (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure, Mr Bone, to serve under sold down the river—or in this case down the railway your chairmanship. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend line? The Government are always keen to bolster their the Member for Washington and Sunderland West transparency credentials, and this would be an excellent (Mrs Hodgson) for securing and leading the debate way of conducting themselves in an open and honest way. today. This is not the first Westminster Hall debate on the Stephen Hammond: This Government are so open east coast main line and, unless the Government change and transparent that all those documents are available their position, it will probably not be the last. The for the hon. Lady to see now. I am surprised she did not Government might not like to have such repeated debates, choose to read them before the debate today. but the Opposition make no apologies for bringing the issue back for discussion time and again. We will do so Mrs Hodgson: I will go away and look more closely at until the Government change their policy, because there the matter. I may have missed the part to which the is an overwhelming case against forcing East Coast Minister refers. Perhaps he could write to me about it, trains back into the private sector without even giving so we can be assured that there will not be a third-class the public sector a chance to offer an alternative. rail service. My hon. Friend reminded us of the positive financial I will conclude because many Members wish to speak record of East Coast trains and that the public are in the debate. I leave the Minister with the words of one clearly against the return of the east coast service to the of his departmental predecessors, the noble Lord Adonis. private sector. The staff on the line, and the cities up He was regularly cited by Ministers as being against and down the line, do not want the service to return to public ownership when he was Secretary of State, and the private sector, and public opinion is overwhelmingly that was correct. However, given the success of Directly against the proposals that the Government seem determined Operated Railways, he recently had this to say: to push forward. “In the last four years East Coast has established itself as one of the best train operating companies in the country, both operationally Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab) rose— and commercially…This has fundamentally changed the situation, and it is right and proper that East Coast should be allowed to Mark Lazarowicz: I give way to my hon. Friend, continue as a public sector comparator to the existing private whose constituency neighbours mine. franchises.” Lord Adonis is a wise man. He had an opinion. He Sheila Gilmore: My hon. Friend and I have spent a looked at the evidence that contradicted his opinion considerable time campaigning on this issue in Edinburgh. and, like many a wise man before him, accepted that his Does he agree that the overwhelming response of the opinion had been wrong and changed his mind. There is people we have spoken to while we were gathering still time for the Minister and his colleagues to demonstrate signatures has been that they do not want the line to be similar wisdom and halt this process before more money re-privatised? 193WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 194WH
Mark Lazarowicz: Absolutely. As my hon. Friend has that although the Chinese are able to build our nuclear said, she and other colleagues have spent quite a bit of power stations and run our railways, the British state is time with me outside the railway stations in Edinburgh unabletodoso. and at other locations, and not one person has come up I come to the essence of the argument. The Government to us and said, “Yes, we want East Coast trains to be say that one of the reasons why the east coast line re-privatised.” They have all recognised the value of this should go back into the private sector is the success that service being in the public sector. there has been since the railway system was privatised. One of the oldest logical fallacies in the book is to say Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I compliment that because event B followed event A, event B must my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and have been caused by event A. Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) on securing this very What the Government are saying, of course, is that timely and important debate and on making some because passenger numbers have gone up since the excellent points. On the point about the value of having railways were privatised, that must be because they were the east coast main line within the public sector, are privatised. However, the fact is that we have not been there not lessons to be learned from what is happening able to establish that link between the two. For example, with gas and electricity companies? When the private I can look at the local bus company in Edinburgh, my sector has no benchmark of public sector provision, home city, which is municipally owned. The number does the consumer not get ripped off? Is there not an of bus passengers has gone up dramatically in the past overwhelming argument for retaining at least one main 20 years. That company is in the public sector, but I will line in public ownership, by which we could benchmark not say that the rise in passenger numbers is just because the other lines? of that. Equally, however, saying that the rail network’s being Mark Lazarowicz: That is a very good point. Let us in the private sector is why the number of passengers be clear—we are not calling today for a renationalisation has gone up seems a very weak argument. In fact, the of the entire railway operating network. number of passengers on other state-owned railways in other parts of the world has gone up as well. The Grahame M. Morris: We are! [Laughter.] argument about privatisation seems very weak. As my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Mark Lazarowicz: My hon. Friend might be, but that Sunderland West pointed out, Lord Adonis, when Transport is not the issue today. What we are talking about today Secretary, made references to privatisation that are is giving an alternative to the private sector. He just continually mentioned by the Government in defence of referred to other industries, and one of the issues about their policies. However, he has made it clear that he has those industries is this: to what extent is there real learned from experience and is approaching this issue in competition? a non-dogmatic fashion, in a way that the Government One of the problems is that within the railway sector are signally failing to do. in the UK, a very limited number of UK companies are Let us not forget that it was a Conservative Government able and willing to put in a bid for a line. On the east who privatised the railways in the first place, against the coast and west coast lines, we all know that the major wishes of the Labour party.Labour colleagues in Parliament UK bidders will always be drawn from Virgin, First at the time voted against that privatisation. Of course, Group, National Express and possibly Stagecoach. the Labour Government after 1997 had a large number Of course, Virgin also runs planes to Edinburgh and of priorities and I can certainly see why the issue was Aberdeen, and First Group and the other companies not, at that time, their No.1. However, as I have said, we operate other rail services. Some of them also operate are talking about the situation here and now. We have bus and express coach services. So the issue is ensuring an opportunity to judge from experience and to ensure that there is at least some competition in the system, that the public get the best value for money and the best which the existence of Directly Operated Railways on service, which, in my and my colleagues’ view, would be the east coast main line would certainly provide. obtained by ensuring that the east coast line stays in the public sector. Ian Mearns rose— Reference has been made to the way in which foreign companies are able to bid for the franchise. I will not Mark Lazarowicz: I will give way to my hon. Friend develop that point any further, given that it has already and then I will move on, to ensure that I make some been raised by other colleagues. However, I will again progress. make the point that there is a real issue about the lack of genuine competition within the rail franchising sector Ian Mearns: It is ironic that, despite the number of in the UK, including among British-based companies. Eurosceptics on the Government Benches, the Government Also, the point that my hon. Friend the Member for are clearly in favour of state ownership—but Dutch, Easington (Grahame M. Morris) made about comparing German and French state ownership of UK railways, rail with the utilities was very well made. not UK state ownership of UK railways. One of the points made by Ministers when they have argued why the east coast main line should go private Mark Lazarowicz: Indeed. However, my hon. Friend again is that—as I think one of the Minister’s predecessors, is being perhaps a bit too restrictive, because I understand the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), that one of the companies shortlisted for one of the said—the record of East Coast trains on punctuality Scottish railway franchises is the mass transit railway had “plateaued”. Again, that is another example of system—MTR—in Hong Kong, which I presume is desperation and of the Government trying to grab ultimately owned by the Chinese Government. It appears arguments to support a weak case. 195WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 196WH
The fact is that East Coast trains has a good record I cannot think that my party would oppose that. Perhaps on punctuality. As we all know, the main reason why the Minister will make that offer today. I am sure that there have been problems with train punctuality in my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South recent times is certain factors—first of all, the recent (Lilian Greenwood) would be happy to respond to that. storms, which were clearly beyond anyone’s control. It is time for the Government to change their policy. Above all, however, they have been due to problems It is not what the public want, what the staff want or with infrastructure, which have not been the fault of what the communities want—and it is not in the best East Coast trains. interests of the public purse, either. I asked a parliamentary question on the issue a while ago. I received an answer about the 2012-13 split in 10 am responsibility for delays on East Coast trains: 18% of them were due to East Coast itself, 13% were due to Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): It is a pleasure “Other Train/Freight Companies” and 69% were due to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I congratulate to Network Rail. We know that one of the reasons why my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and 69% of delays were due to Network Rail was problems Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) on securing the debate. with the overhead line system, which was, of course, put It is important that we continue to raise and debate the in place on the cheap, and for which—again—a previous issues on the east coast main line, with a view to Conservative Government clearly have to take responsibility. persuading the Government, I hope, that they have My hon. Friend the Member for Washington and gone down the wrong track. It is not too late to go into Sunderland West referred to the new targets from the reverse. I am a regular railway traveller, but this is one regulator regarding punctuality. One of the things that time when I will be more than happy for the train to the regulator said in its recent report was that there is a stop and go backwards. problem with reliability on the east coast main line, and It was not such a joy to arrive at Newcastle station a I welcome the fact that it did. However, like my hon. couple of weeks ago and be told that the best advice Friend, I am concerned about how the performance was to get off the train and go home. My hon. Friend measurements for the east coast service have been reduced the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark in comparison with those for many other lines in the Lazarowicz) and I were so determined to get here country. that we ignored that advice and soldiered on to I know that it only sounds like a marginal reduction if Peterborough. That delay was due not to the train the performance target is reduced from 90% to 88%, but operator, but to the stormy weather; the line was certainly of course what we want to aim for is 100% reliability. not the only one affected on that date. Some might Obviously, we will never get 100% reliability, but every suggest that East Coast let us down, but we were clear time the target is reduced—even by 1% or 2%—we that that was not the case. Indeed, when we tried to take release the pressure on that operator to ensure that, as other lines to get from Peterborough to London, we far as possible, all their trains arrive on time. discovered that they were all affected, whether they were privatised or not. The fact is that the new target for cancelled or seriously late trains was set at a rate that would allow 4.2% of Things like that will happen in any travel system, but east coast line trains to arrive more than two hours late the service has—many regular travellers will say this— or not at all. That does not sound like much, until we improved over recent years. People enjoy their journeys. put those figures in another context and say that one in I have said this before and I will say it again, because every 24 trains could be cancelled without any penalties it is important from a Scottish perspective and an whatever being imposed on the operator responsible. environmental perspective: the improvements are making inroads into getting those important business travellers, As my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and who otherwise might always travel by air, to use rail. If Sunderland West has said, there are concerns about the we are serious about creating a modal shift in transport, fact that that particular change was not referred to in we have to make rail both attractive and reliable to get draft proposals for the new punctuality performance that kind of traveller. That is one thing the service has targets; it was a change that people could not be consulted done extremely well. on. The Minister should give an explanation as to why that was the case. Bluntly, if he cannot provide one I have taken part in at least four of the several debates today, he should go away and look at the issue, because we have had on the east coast main line. As well as the it was a major defect in the process. Westminster Hall debate referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West, we It is time for the Government to drop their dogmatic had a Backbench Business Committee debate in the approach to the east coast line and to give the public Chamber in which many colleagues spoke. We have had sector operator a chance. Let Directly Operated Railways many opportunities to ask oral questions, and we have put forward an alternative model and we will see what all taken them up. At this stage, one might think that we represents the best value for money and the best service should find something new to say and look at the for the public. Please, Minister, do not come forward matter from some new angle, but the problem is that with the argument that I heard from one Minister some our questions have never been answered. It is important time ago, which was, “We couldn’t do this because the that we go back over those questions. Perhaps on this law wouldn’t allow us to do it, and we had to put it out occasion we will get responses to some key points. to the private sector.” As a Back Bencher, I cannot speak for those on the Ian Mearns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Labour Front Bench, but were the Government to come Ministers might ask why the public have so little confidence forward and say, “Yes, we will change the law to allow in the re-privatisation of the east coast main line, and East Coast trains to continue to operate the franchise”, the answer is simple: for the bulk of the time since the 197WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 198WH
[Ian Mearns] only made possible by the current operator of the west coast main line, Virgin, being given a franchise extension railways were privatised, the franchise has been in the of four and a half years to April 2017. At the same time, hands of the private sector. The orders for new rolling the Great Western operator, First, has been given an stock on the line have only been secured since the extension of two and a half years to September 2015. In franchise has been in the public sector. Much of the total, that is 77 months’ worth of extensions. existing rolling stock is 35 or 40 years old. For the bulk The Government justify prioritising East Coast by of that time, it has been in private hands with little referring to the Brown review, which was carried out investment, apart from a lick of paint. after the problems with the west coast main line. They are restating their belief that competition in the bidding Sheila Gilmore: I thank my hon. Friend for making process should drive down the level of subsidy required an important point on East Coast that speaks to how or drive up the level of premium payments offered. we run the railways. A lot of the public assumed that They say that that will push operators to be more privatisation would mean that investment would be efficient and innovative, and prompt investment in new brought in and that everything would be brought up to services. One can argue that franchise competitions scratch. That was the selling point. might achieve these goals, but the one thing that certainly The track investments are necessary and we need to will not achieve those goals is franchise extensions. That see considerable improvement in the infrastructure on is because the Government, by setting up this particular the east coast main line, particularly with the overhead arrangement, have no option but to negotiate with the lines, which have caused a lot of the recent problems. existing operators on other lines. The only bargaining We need to see that crucial investment and we need to chip that Ministers can use is to threaten to call in East see the rolling stock upgraded, but none of the onus will Coast’s parent company, Directly Operated Railways, be put on those who are being asked to tender for the but they are reluctant to do so, as is highlighted by their service. Whatever investment there is will come from all desperation to extract DOR from the east coast main of us as taxpayers. line. How are the other franchisees threatened by Ministers That notion that we have to privatise to get investment saying, “If you don’t agree reasonable terms, we’ll take was the selling point at the beginning, which people you into the fold of Directly Operated Railways,” when perhaps swallowed. They probably thought, “Yes, if Ministers are running as fast as possible in the opposite that is a way of improving things, we will at least give it direction with the east coast main line? a try”, but that investment is not happening and will not happen in this case either. All the things that desperately Mark Lazarowicz: My hon. Friend is making an need to be done will not get done through this privatisation excellent speech. When there were problems with East process, which is, in many ways, a distraction from the Coast trains, as there were with Southern some years measures that could lead to a real step change. We have ago, Directly Operated Railways was able to step in and talked about improvements and we are not complacent. provide an alternative when the private sector failed. If We do not think that everything is perfect. We want to Directly Operated Railways is taken off East Coast see a step change in the line, but it will not come trains—I do not know what will happen to the organisation, through this process. but I presume that there might still be a shell company—the nucleus that allows it to operate an alternative may Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): disappear, so there might not be an alternative even if a I have been listening carefully to the hon. Lady, but future private sector operator fails. would she care to speculate on whether the very investment that she and her colleagues are looking for in the east Sheila Gilmore: My hon. Friend gives a helpful example coast main line could be diminished once the Government of where, instead of increasing competition and providing get their way on HS2? Does she share the fear that such opportunities for the Government to exercise some vast amounts will go into this bright, shiny new railway control over the rail companies, that possibility might that, as in France, the existing lines might fail to get the be being reduced. investment that she and her colleagues desperately want? The contract extensions, which were made necessary by the Government’s determination to pull East Coast Sheila Gilmore: I think the right hon. Lady knows forward, will cost the taxpayer a lot of money. In that I do not share her views on this matter. We should 2011-12, Virgin paid the Department for Transport a not cast one railway line against another, because one of premium of £165 million, and First Great Western paid the advantages of HS2 is that it provides an opportunity £110 million. Will the Minister confirm that there will to improve some of the other services, not least by not be payments of anywhere near those sums during dealing with the capacity question. the extension period? Will he also confirm that, apart One issue is the opportunity cost of prioritising East from the roll-out of wi-fi on First Great Western, which Coast over some of the other long-distance franchises. all train operators are beginning to offer, the two extensions Under the original franchising timetable from August offer no improvements for passengers? There is less 2011, a new contract for the west coast main line was money coming in and no improvements; the extensions due to start in October 2012, with Great Western starting need not have been given had the Government stuck to in April 2013 and the east coast main line thereafter. their original timetable. However, following the debacle of the west coast main If the east coast main line had not been prioritised, line bidding process, a new timetable was announced in the extensions simply would not have been necessary. March this year. The east coast main line, which was There could have been fresh competitions, if that was previously the last in the trio of intercity franchises to the Government’s will, for the west coast main line and be let, was brought forward to be the first. That was the Great Western main line. If East Coast had been 199WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 200WH performing badly in the public sector, there might have East Coast also has the best punctuality on the line been some justification for what has happened—the since the service was privatised, and all passenger surveys imperative of turning East Coast around would have and polling indicates that the overwhelming majority of trumped other disadvantages of negotiating extensions people are satisfied with East Coast and wish it to on the west coast main line and the great western main remain in public ownership. So why are the Conservative-led line—but East Coast is performing well, so that reason coalition Government, supported by their compliant simply does not apply. fellow travellers in the Liberal Democrats, intent on The Government clearly hope that they can get to re-privatising what is evidently a most successful, lucrative the next election with all the main line routes back in and popular public service? Has re-privatisation been the private sector. The Government could take credit proposed for the right financial and service reasons, or for that in the hope that it would be extremely difficult is there another, perhaps more partisan, explanation? for any incoming Government to do anything about it. From the evidence available, it is apparent that that If that is not the motive, the Government have to say privatisation is born of ideology, not necessity. what is their real motive for proceeding in that way. Indeed, in answer to a parliamentary question in Public opinion has changed. People have seen the April, the previous Minister with responsibility for railways, reality. Some people, although not necessarily all of the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), us—there are always some critics—warned that privatisation implied that investment in the east coast main line’s of rail might be a step too far. Members of the public infrastructure is not dependent on re-privatising passenger who were prepared to give privatisation a chance now operations: see Directly Operated Railways as an opportunity to “Funding for the 2014-19 upgrade of the east coast main line have a rail service in public ownership that brings will be delivered through the Office of Rail Regulation approving money back to the Treasury. As I said earlier, when we a £240 million increase in the value of Network Rail’s regulatory talk to people they enthusiastically support our campaign. access base. Network Rail may then borrow up to this amount to The Government sometimes say that they listen to fund the upgrade works.”—[Official Report, 15 April 2013; Vol. 561, public opinion, and on this occasion I suggest that they c. 2W.] do indeed listen to public opinion and stop the process For the sake of clarity, it would be helpful if the new before it goes any further. Minister with responsibility for railways stated whether any elements of replacing and upgrading the electrification Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): I call Graeme Morrice. on the east coast main line are dependent on the transfer of the operation of passenger services to the private Grahame M. Morris rose— sector. Similarly, it would be useful if he explained how that investment will be delivered more swiftly if privatisation takes place. Finally, will he provide details of the increased 10.14 am investment, over and above the taxpayers’ money being Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): People wait all put into the line, that would be delivered as a result of day in Westminster Hall for one Graeme Morrice to privatisation? turn up, then two turn up at the same time. The past, current and planned public investment in It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the east coast main line has been and continues to be Mr Bone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member highly effective. If further investment is required, however, for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) it could easily be provided by public means, given that on securing this important debate on the future provision the service returns far more to the Exchequer than it of the east coast main line rail service. She mentioned receives in subsidy. Furthermore, given the thoroughly that she is a regular user of the East Coast service to negative history of private involvement in the east coast London King’s Cross, and I travel regularly on the main line, it is highly probable that, if the East Coast service from Edinburgh Waverley. We are both aware, as service is privatised, taxpayers will be left to pick up the I am sure are many other hon. Members, of the benefits tab, as we have seen in so many other botched franchise provided by the service to Scotland, the north-east of deals, including, not least, on the west coast main line. England, Yorkshire and beyond. The British taxpayer has funded the east coast main I note that, like me, my hon. Friend appreciates the line service successfully since November 2009, following general reliability, frequency, excellent customer service 12 years of declining profits and eventual failure under and value for money the service provides to all passengers. Great North Eastern Railway and National Express. As a state-owned operator, the ethos of putting the The service became hugely profitable almost immediately customer first and ensuring the most effective and efficient after re-nationalisation and has returned its soaring use of public resources is the company’s prime objective. profits to the Exchequer every year, with the estimated Private companies can be just as good, of course, but total returned by the end of this financial year in excess their foremost loyalty is to their shareholders and any of £800 million. profits not reinvested go on share dividends, often to It is unfathomable that the coalition Government’s already wealthy people. response to that success, which came about so quickly The difference with East Coast being a subsidiary of after years of failed management by the private sector, Directly Operated Railways, a holding company owned is to decide that this is a good time to give the private by the Department for Transport, is that its surpluses sector not just a second, but a third chance. It is are paid back to the Exchequer. As my hon. Friend has appalling that the Minister and his Department are so already mentioned, £800 million has been returned to eager to overlook the clear demonstration of the high the taxpayer since 2009. Moreover, East Coast has quality of our public rail service management, the invested some £40 million in infrastructure and asset dedication of train staff and the co-operation of rail improvements in that period. unions. 201WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 202WH
[Graeme Morrice] “and beyond”; it is my constituency, and I will fight for it as hard as I can and as hard as Opposition Members, Rather than continue with this charade, the Minister I am sure, do for theirs. should focus his efforts on sorting out the debacle of I would like to see better services from Lincoln to our the west coast main line and other, similar franchise capital city, as I am sure Opposition Members would fiascos. It is ill-advised for the Government to create an from theirs. However, I am also aware that if trains on issue out of nothing and to waste resources trying to the east coast main line stopped at Edinburgh, and solve a problem that does not exist, when they struggle passengers then had to cross a platform to catch another to deal with real problems and real issues, often of their train to go further north, people south of Edinburgh own making. I can conclude only that political dogma is would see a vast improvement to their service. That is driving this agenda, which I hope will ultimately be something a private operator might consider, although derailed. I am not saying it will. In Lincoln’s case, however, I would certainly like to see more direct trains daily and 10.21 am even at weekends. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): I will make a short Mark Lazarowicz rose— speech, because a number of Opposition Members want to get in before the shadow Minister and the Graeme Morrice rose— Minister reply. I did not say this in my intervention earlier, but I thank the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) for securing the Grahame M. Morris rose— debate. Karl McCartney: I am being surrounded. I will take There has been some striking ideological dogma from all three Members on if they like, but I will give way to the Opposition, and it smacks of having a brass neck to the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris). accuse the Government of dogma. Grahame M. Morris: The hon. Gentleman argues Grahame M. Morris: Will the hon. Gentleman give there is an evidence base that suggests that the east way? coast main line is better off privatised. However, whatever measure is used—whether customer satisfaction, Karl McCartney: No, not at this point. I would like to profitability or prices—the evidence is that the line is make some progress, if I may, and then I will certainly better off as part of a directly operated public service, give way. and I heard nothing to contradict that. The profits that I liked the fact that the hon. Lady started her speech are being made can be reinvested to improve the service completely against re-privatisation, but seemed by the or they can be used elsewhere by the Treasury. end to be quite content to support it, albeit only in a way that she wanted and that benefited her constituents. Karl McCartney: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Of course, that is what we would all want as Members erudite and timely intervention, which is typical of the of Parliament: we all want the best for our constituents. interventions he might make, but I would refer him to The hon. Lady claimed not to be a PR cheerleader my first intervention. If he and the Labour party feel for East Coast. Indeed, like her, not one Opposition that way, why did they not re-nationalise the rail service Member—I waited until quite a few had spoken—declared across the whole country in their 13 years in office? an interest. Since 2009, however, they have seen a real They did not do that. increase in services for their constituents. That is to be welcomed, and I am sure Opposition Members are Mark Lazarowicz: May I respectfully point out that pleased. However, some of us represent seats that have the private operators did not provide the direct service not seen services increase to the level we were promised the hon. Gentleman is calling for to his constituency in they would be once East Coast was taken back into the the 13 years or longer they operated the line? The public sector. Lincoln was promised seven trains down private sector did not offer his city any improvements to and up from the capital a day, but we have ended up when it was in charge. That is surely an argument for with one. Members can now see why I am perhaps not saying that Directly Operated Railways should offer an as big a cheerleader for East Coast as some Opposition alternative. The hon. Gentleman can then decide whether Members. he wants Directly Operated Railways and East Coast or the private sector. Surely he can accept that there should at least be a choice. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Karl McCartney: I accept that different changes might be made. I thank my predecessor in the constituency, Karl McCartney: No, not at this point. who, as a Transport Minister, perhaps secured the promise The real elephant in the room is perhaps the fact that of seven trains a day down to and up from the capital. Opposition Members are worried that re-privatisation Ultimately, I was the lucky recipient of more votes in might bring some change to services. Although I agreed the 2010 general election, and I replaced her. Unfortunately, with some of the points made by the hon. Members for at that point, unlike some Labour Members who have Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and for Edinburgh retained their seats, East Coast decided not to follow North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), they might consider through with its promise. That is to the disbenefit of my the fact that seats to the south of theirs are not just constituents. As I said, I will always stand up for them “and beyond”, as they were referred to. Lincoln is not to secure the best rail services I can. 203WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 204WH
Graeme Morrice: The question I was going to put has The Government have yet another opportunity to already been asked by my hon. Friend the Member for listen to what the overwhelming majority of the British Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), but public—not just in Easington or the north-east—are given the discussion earlier about the public view on saying. Polling evidence shows that they believe that the this issue, does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the east coast main line should remain a publicly operated overwhelming majority of the public, including passengers, service. oppose privatisation? Is he aware that the Government The last time we had a debate on this matter, the have actually consulted on the issue? Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), referred to me—and, if I recall Karl McCartney: I am, and I am happy to accept that correctly, my hon. Friends the Members for Livingston the majority of people in his constituency, and the (Graeme Morrice) and for Gateshead (Ian Mearns)—as passengers who use the rail station he uses, might, like dinosaurs for believing that public services should be him, not want to see any changes to the level of services run for the benefit and in the best interests of the they enjoy. However, some of us, in seats that do not public. receive such a regular service, might feel differently, and that might be where the ideological difference is. I do support the renationalisation of the railways, and I certainly oppose the re-privatisation of the east Ian Mearns: Unfortunately, a couple of weeks ago, coast main line—especially when there is evidence that we had the wrong sort of trees on the line, and my hon. Directly Operated Railways is providing a better service Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) and returning more money to the taxpayer than the and I had to get off a train at Peterborough. We had a private sector. Furthermore, on two occasions when the chat with quite a lot of residents and people who work private sector was operating the franchise, it failed. If on the railway there, and I have spoken to lots of people my view makes me a dinosaur, so be it. from Peterborough since. It is quite clear that the vast In numerous surveys 70% of the public have regularly majority of them do not want the line to be taken out of supported calls for the railways to be completely publicly public ownership and re-privatised. That is not run. That applies throughout the country and even in Gateshead—that is Peterborough. the south and south-east. Trains there are very congested, and there are similar concerns about the fact that private Karl McCartney: I will take those comments with sector franchise holders are not delivering. quite a large pinch of salt. I would probably take on board a little more the comments of my hon. Friend the We have been given an example, in the success of the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) on behalf of east coast main line under Directly Operated Railways, his constituents. However, like him, I am pleased to see of how a public rail operator can work and deliver for the new rolling stock on the east coast main line. the taxpayer. As my hon. Friends have said, more than Lincoln might—perhaps with hybrid locomotives—see £800 million in premiums will be returned to the Exchequer better, more regular rail services, including at weekends. by Directly Operated Railways. The east coast main line As I said, I have been fighting for that for my constituents. receives the lowest net subsidy of any operator—only The hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith 1% compared with an industry average of 32% or more managed to bring nuclear power stations into the debate than £4 billion. The numbers tell the story. Let us not and mentioned that in 1997 there were other priorities forget what happened previously, when National Express for the Labour party. Obviously there were, because you ran the service. It returned only £370 million in premium did not sort out any power stations and certainly did payments and turned its back on the franchise, leaving not sort out the rail system. You were all busy spending the taxpayer to pick up the pieces. Directly Operated money our country did not have. Trains had to step in. We have had private sector failures on the line and the Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. The hon. Gentleman operators have not delivered on their commitments, but is using the word “you” a little too much. He should not the Government will not prevent National Express or be doing that. other failed operators from bidding for the rail franchise. Labour Members have raised queries about that. The Karl McCartney: Indeed I should not, Mr Bone. right hon. Member for Chelmsford confirmed in an Thank you for that reminder. answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington I never refuse any opportunity to have a dig at the North (Jeremy Corbyn): Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. The “National Express and its subsidiaries are permitted to submit hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West for the pre-qualification process”— mentioned talk—although it has been refuted—of a that is, the bidding process— third class on the east coast. I ask her not to tell IPSA, because I am sure it would try to make us all travel on it. “to run passenger rail services in all franchise competitions including the East Coast Main Line.”—[Official Report, 3 June 2013; Vol. 563, c. 970W.] 10.30 am We should ask questions about that, given that the Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): It is a pleasure private operator has a track record—if hon. Members to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone, as always. will excuse the pun—of failure. I want to compliment my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) on securing the debate, one of several about the east coast Ian Mearns: Given the statistics that my hon. Friend main line that we have had in Westminster Hall and the has reeled off about the public subsidy going into main Chamber. private sector franchises, there is a good argument that 205WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 206WH
[Ian Mearns] We were told first that East Coast had to be privatised because punctuality had plateaued; better punctuality the new rolling stock in the private sector franchises has rates, however, have been achieved than under the previous, been put in not by private sector investment, but by failed private operators. We were also told that we had public sector subsidy. The public pay for private profit. to sell off East Coast to secure outside investment, but Ministers then had to admit in answers to written Grahame M. Morris: My hon. Friend makes an excellent questions that the cost of track upgrades and rolling point. We are privatising the profit and nationalising stock procurement would in fact be met by the taxpayer. the cost and risk of the investment. That is a bizarre Then we were told that privatisation would lead to approach to the public finances. In my view, companies better value for money, but since 2009 East Coast—as in either sector that fail to deliver on commitments or we heard—has been virtually subsidy-free; all profits promises to the taxpayer should not be allowed to take have been reinvested in the service and £800 million will over franchises—they have shown that they are not have been returned to the taxpayer by the end of the competent to run them. financial year. Finally, the Minister told us in an answer to a written question last Monday that it would never It is very expensive to travel by rail in the United be appropriate to compare any franchise to another, Kingdom, compared with other countries. British train even though the former Minister, his colleague the right tickets are now the most expensive in Europe. A typical hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), had frequently season ticket costs 14p per kilometre in the UK, compared contrasted east and west coast inter-city services. with just 8p per kilometre in Germany. Holland and France are the next most expensive countries. A day The same confusion was at work in the leaked east return in the UK costs 26p per kilometre compared coast franchise prospectus—the document that raised with 17p per kilometre in Germany. As to season tickets the prospect of third-class travel. It is clear that at a late into the capital, a 24-mile commute into Paris would stage a decision was taken to alter or remove positive cost £924 a year; a similar commute would cost £705 to references to East Coast performance since 2009. One Berlin and £654 to Madrid—but for someone travelling statement, that to London it would cost £3,268 a year. Those are huge “staff engagement is at an all time high”, sums, and after a decade of price increases. Those are was altered to: never welcome, but at a time of austerity when wages “staff engagement has been improved”. are effectively frozen and, in many cases, falling, an Then there was a reference to “the current, successful intolerable strain is being put on family budgets. business”, which was downgraded to only “the current While fares have been shooting up, dividends to business”. shareholders in the big five transport companies contracted Some facts were erased completely. I shall share a few to run UK rail services reached nearly £2.5 billion. examples. On page 19: When people ask, “Where is the money going?” the “East Coast Main Line’s public reputation has remained answer is that a big chunk of it is going there—in consistently high”; dividends to private train operators. There are examples on page 20: of excessive boardroom pay. Some of the highest paid “Since the beginning of 2011/12 East Coast Main Line has directors receive more than £1 million. been the recipient of 35 industry awards”; East Coast offers a genuine alternative, with all profits on page 27, it was stated that East Coast’s passenger reinvested back into services—money that otherwise satisfaction was would go as dividends for shareholders. I hope that the “higher than the 89% for all long distance operators”; Minister will listen to the concerns expressed by hon. and page 31 said: Members and the British public and end the failed franchise bidding policy. “Over the last two years East Coast Main Line has developed a genuine choice for customers in terms of fares and customer offering.” 10.38 am All were deleted, but we do not know who ordered those changes. Perhaps the Minister can tell us today. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): It is The Secretary of State may believe that he speaks on always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, behalf of passengers, as he told the House at Transport Mr Bone. questions last week, but I am sure that they would not I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for want to see Ministers rewriting history in such a way. Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) on Has the Secretary of State not seen the passenger securing this important debate. She made a compelling satisfaction statistics? Since 2009, East Coast has achieved case against the privatisation of east coast inter-city the highest ratings on the route since records began. services, and there were other strong speeches, including The 2011 timetable changes introduced the equivalent that of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East of 3 million more seats a year, bringing improved services (Sheila Gilmore). She rightly said that Ministers have to communities along the line. Industrial relations have consistently failed to justify selling off the east coast been improved, with employee engagement up and sickness line, and hon. Members who attended previous debates absence levels down, from 14 days per year in 2009 to may feel a sense of déjà vu. However, while I share their nine and a half days last year. Furthermore, polls show frustration, I make no apology for the persistent questions that twice as many people oppose the sell-off as support from the Labour Benches about an unnecessary, unwanted it. Even half of Conservative supporters are against it. and wasteful privatisation. The answers have changed Perhaps we should not be surprised that Tory Ministers each time, but the absence of a credible case has remained are rushing through a botched privatisation of rail constant. services; they have form, after all. However, the Liberal 207WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 208WH
Democrats—unfortunately, none are present today—need aware of that fact, or were they duped? I would be to be reminded of their position in opposition. At the happy to take an intervention on the point—but perhaps time, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), the Minister will address it in his speech. said: After months of delay, the Government’s fares and “My view on the franchise agreements is clear…if a franchise ticketing review offered only cold comfort to passengers. is handed in to the Government—handed back—it should be East Coast passengers, however, will be feeling the held in the public sector as a public interest franchise, not least as impact of disruption, as despite the operator’s best a comparator for other franchise agreements currently operating.”— efforts, infrastructure failings are an all-too-regular [Official Report, 3 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 83WH.] occurrence on the line. The previous Labour Government Nevertheless, in government the Liberal Democrats have committed £500 million to the line in the current control voted in favour of privatisation without a word of period and a further £247 million is due to be invested protest. So this is not only a Tory sell-off; it is another in control period 5, but that pales in comparison with Lib Dem sell-out. the billions spent on the west coast, and poor asset There is an alternative. As a not-for-dividend operator, knowledge compounds the problem. East Coast has invested all its profits—some £48 million— Network Rail is due to carry out a review of civil back into the service, instead of splitting it with shareholders. structures by March 2015, but the Government intend It has proved excellent value for money and will have to award the new franchise in October next year. Will paid back almost £1 billion by the middle of 2015, the Minister confirm that without adequate knowledge combining better services for passengers with improved of the disruption ahead, the successful bidder could value for the taxpayer. That is why we have suggested walk away with millions in preventable compensation that, if the Government press ahead, at least East Coast payments? Is that cost to the taxpayer not reason enough should be able to bid for the new franchise. to slow the reckless pace of this privatisation? As hon. Members have recognised, it is nonsense to The truth is that the current operator has won national say that the German, French and Dutch state operators awards for the way in which it manages disruption, and will be able to bid, but that the current, successful its management have drawn up a five-year plan for British operator will be barred. It is also remarkable managing upgrade work and the introduction of the that Conservative Ministers have come before the House intercity express trains. They should be entrusted to to tell us that they are not in favour of that additional deliver the plan, just as they delivered record punctuality element of competition. By doing so, Ministers have and passenger satisfaction ratings. made it clear that this is about politics, not the national We all know, however, that the sell-off is not interest. They are content to watch profits being spent about improving services; it is about ideology and the on foreign rail networks, and they have also said that Government’s determination to bring to an end this they would allow National Express, which walked away successful alternative to franchising. It is not too late from the franchise in 2009, to bid again. for Ministers to halt the process, but if they continue, Meanwhile, as my hon. Friend the Member for they will be putting privatisation before passenger interests, Livingston (Graeme Morrice) said, instead of clearing which would say everything about the priorities of this up the mess caused by the collapse of the west coast out-of-touch Government. franchise competition, progress on other lines has stalled as Ministers desperately try to complete East Coast’s sale before the general election. The collapse of franchising 10.49 am has already cost the taxpayer at least £55 million, and the Government have been forced to seek costly direct The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport extensions—in one case, for more than four years—in (Stephen Hammond): It is a great delight to see you order to free up enough time to push East Coast out of in the Chair this morning, Mr Bone. I thank the the door. hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) for securing the debate, which provides As a result, First Great Western will pay only £17 million yet another opportunity to present the benefits of rail in premium payments next year, compared with £126 million franchising and to talk about the east coast main line last year. When combined with the similar deal to extend franchise. Virgin’s west coast contract, taxpayers will lose out on £173 million in franchise payments in 2013-14. That is I have listened to a number of Members speak this before taking into account the loss to the wider economy, morning, and I hope to address some of what they have as orders have been put on hold, hurting the supply said and asked for on behalf of their constituents. chain and threatening jobs and skills. Regrettably, I cannot deal with all the points, because we are engaged in a commercially confidential and Does the Minister really believe that those wasted sensitive procurement exercise to appoint the right service millions could not have been put to better use? They delivery partner for this vital and historic railway. On could helped to alleviate the cost-of-living crisis by 25 October, we began the competition for the inter-city holding down the cost of tickets, but instead the east coast main line franchise by publishing a notice in Government are allowing some fares in January to rise the Official Journal of the European Union, and publishing by more than double the rate of inflation. the inter-city east coast prospectus and the pre-qualifications In fairness to the Government, they did announce documents so that prospective bidders can apply to take one interesting policy: a £500 cap on the cost of a part in this important competition. The prospectus set standard return. It was interesting for the wrong reasons, out some of the new policies to be included in the new however, because the policy will benefit no one—there franchise, such as capitalisation requirements and the are no standard return fares that cost more than £500. GDP support mechanism to mitigate the kinds of failures When the rail industry proposed the cap, were Ministers we have seen in the past. The Government have learned 209WH East Coast Main Line12 NOVEMBER 2013 East Coast Main Line 210WH
[Stephen Hammond] commented on performance, and I refer her to page 67, which states that the franchise agreement will include the lessons from the west coast main line and put in three levels of benchmarking for the performance metrics place new procedures and policies. I am confident that that any franchisee will have to meet. the competition will run smoothly. The hon. Lady referred to third class. I intervened to We are now in the pre-qualification stage of the say that we will not specify that and have not specified competition, so it is only right that I am careful in my it, but I gently guide her to Eurostar, which has a comments this morning not to prejudice the competition. standard premier class to make better use of off-peak As is normal, the Department has set up clear processes, first-class coaches. If someone wanted to make better which I must follow, for the transmission of information use of first-class coaches during off-peak times, I am to the market throughout this competition. sure that she and her constituents would regard that as a benefit. Mrs Hodgson: The Minister mentioned the prospectus that is in the public domain. Will he explain the difference Ian Mearns: The Minister is generous in giving way. between that and the leaked prospectus to which my If a franchise runs a first-class, a standard premium hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian class and a standard class, does not standard class, de Greenwood) referred and from which I obtained facto, become third class? information about the proposal for third-class rail travel? Where did that leaked prospectus come from, and does it even exist? It was printed in The Daily Telegraph, Stephen Hammond: I am not sure that the hon. which I am sure he thinks is a jolly good paper that Gentleman would argue that with British Airways, and would not print something that did not exist. I am not sure why he should do so with the franchise. His point is nonsense. Stephen Hammond: The hon. Lady is drawing me into commenting on The Daily Telegraph, and I would Mrs Hodgson: I know that I cannot tempt the Minister rather not do that at the moment, for obvious reasons. to discuss the existence of the leaked document, but The Government rightly do not comment on leaked page 66 of the publicly available document states: documents. If the hon. Lady wants to rely on it, it is for “We would be open to variations in the ratio of first to her to do so, but the Government rely on the prospectus standard class accommodation…We would be unlikely to consider we have issued. any variation which delivers a worsening of passenger experience”, I shall pick up some of the questions asked this which I believe third class would. Will he confirm that morning. There has been a whiff of mischief in this no third class will be allowed under the franchise? debate. Much has been said about political dogma and the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) gave himself away when he said that he supports Stephen Hammond: The hon. Lady is dancing on a renationalisation of the railways. That is what this pinhead. I have made it clear that in the document we debate is about. It is not about securing the best deal for will not and have not specified a third class. I would passengers, the railways or the east coast main line. It is have thought that she and her colleagues would have about renationalisation. supported utilising first-class coaches so that more passengers can have a better experience. The whiff of mischief continued from the Labour Front-Bench spokesman who was keen to point out I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Edinburgh what she believes is the benefit of nationalisation, but North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) who told us that it failed to point out that the previous Labour Government was impossible to argue that the decline in ridership on saw the benefits of the franchising system and privatisation, the railways between the early 1900s and the 1990s was and continued with that process throughout their 13 years due to public ownership, or that the benefits of privatisation, in office. Moreover, I gently remind the hon. Lady that which has seen ridership double, could be established. when she starts a catalogue of failures, she might remember He then proceeded to use exactly those arguments for who had not done enough work on the franchising the east coast main line, which was slightly surprising. process in 2007 when National Express took it over. I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) who referred to securing new Mrs Gillan: On the spirit of mischief, does my hon. rolling stock under the public sector. The inter-city Friend find the attitude of Labour Members rather express programme has been running for some time. odd? I understand that Labour is considering supporting The trains will be procured by Government and will HS2 if the Secretary of State raises the extra private also be used by Great Western, and that is currently sector funds by selling a 30-year concession on HS2 for being operated by First Great Western. To suggest that £10 billion. Does that not sit rather oddly with the the IEP process was not running beforehand was wrong. arguments that have been deployed today? It is equally odd that some hon. Members sought to suggest that the Government have been panicked into Stephen Hammond: My right hon. Friend makes an the inter-city east coast main line refranchising. What interesting point and alludes, as I did, to the whiff of they forget is that the franchise consultation had already mischief that we are hearing from Labour Members been held prior to the west coast franchise being stopped. today. It had already been announced back in 2011 that the The hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland intention was to publish the invitation to tender in West asked about the prospectus and where she might January 2013. To contend that this is a rushed find it. It is available in the Library—and I have a copy privatisation—we may discuss the word “privatisation” here—but I will ensure that a copy is sent to her. She in a moment—is simply nonsense. 211WH East Coast Main Line 12 NOVEMBER 2013 212WH
Sheila Gilmore: Does the Minister accept that the Premier Motor Auctions original plan was for the east coast main line to be the last of the three lines to be refranchised, so the only reason that it now seems to be in line with the original 11 am date is that the whole thing was put on hold due to the Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): May I say complete debacle of the west coast main line? what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship for the first time ever, Mr Bone? I want to tell the story Stephen Hammond: The hon. Lady cannot argue that today of the theft of a profitable Yorkshire company by we are rushing it through when she has just said that we the mafia—I do not mean the criminal mafia that we are keeping to the original timetable. The then Secretary often speak of, but Britain’s dark-suited mafia, which of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede in this case is represented by Lloyds bank and and Weybridge (Mr Hammond) announced a timetable PricewaterhouseCoopers, both acting in collusion and and we had already started the consultation prior to the neither of them subject to police controls, because both west coast refranchising process being stopped, so it is regulate themselves. nonsense to argue that this is rushed. The company is Premier Motor Auctions, which had a turnover of £160 million, had 160 staff, and was Graeme Morrice: I am grateful to the Minister for profitably selling 50,000 cars a year in 2008, which giving way. I appreciate that time is running out. Will he was one of its most profitable years. It was described confirm what public consultation there has been with by Lloyds as a “great auction business”. However, the passengers and passenger groups, and what the outcome company had an overdraft facility of £1.75 million, was? because the chief executive, Keith Elliott, was pushing the limits to expand the company. That included the costs Stephen Hammond: We followed the absolutely standard of due diligence on an aborted takeover, the purchase of procedures. We had a public consultation between June a new site in Birmingham and a proposal to establish a and September 2012, and there will be further consultation business in the United States. The overdraft facility gave when the ITT has been finalised. The Government are the bank the idea of taking it over and it introduced putting in place the refranchising process that will deliver Irving Warnett of PricewaterhouseCoopers to the company the best partner to deliver the best benefit for all customers as a non-executive director. He called himself, as he on the east coast main line. That is the way forward. came in, a critical friend, and he worked for Ian Green, who was the northern leader of business recovery services for PricewaterhouseCoopers. Warnett went through the accounts and insisted on creating a £2 million account for a Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency contract that the company held. That turned out to be unnecessary—it was not even required by the DVLA contract—but it created a hole in the company’s finances, which Lloyds agreed to fill by increasing the borrowing limit to £3.75 million, in return for which it demanded vigorously and robustly that the company be sold via an administration in which PwC would, amazingly to me, act for both parties. That was in September 2008. It was to be sold to Lloyds Development Capital under what was called Project Tic, which was headed by the takeover specialist Matthew Packham. Elliott fought back, and he got the support of a venture capital firm called Endless, which described Premier Motor Auctions as an excellent business. It was prepared to refund the £2 million borrowing that had been unnecessary, but Lloyds, in return, insisted on owning 50% of the business and proposed to put the business again into administration. That was described by Lloyds as Project Toc, and PwC was to handle the administration, at the end of which Lloyds was to buy the business for £1. To ensure that that happened, Lloyds then threatened to withdraw funding on 4 December, which was the day before the deal was completed. It said, in internal documents, that this was its attempt to crystallise the position and to do a deal without Keith. PwC was proposing to act for both sides, which, again, I would have thought was a conflict of interest on its part. Elliott, not to be beaten—resourceful man as he is—did a deal with Scottish Motor Auctions, which agreed to put up £2 million and avoid administration, which, as it pointed out, would have shattered confidence in the business. That was a good deal from the point of 213WH Premier Motor Auctions12 NOVEMBER 2013 Premier Motor Auctions 214WH
[Austin Mitchell] I hope the Department will inquire into that, because if it is happening on a bigger scale than at Premier Motor view of Elliott and Premier Motor Auctions, but not Auctions, it is an appalling practice to impose on businesses from the bank’s point of view, and in 24 hours, the deal, that want to compete, prosper and grow, and it is a on 11 December, had been aborted and a new deal was threat to businesses besides Keith Elliott’s. reached between Scottish Motor Auctions and Lloyds, What smells even more and is even more worrying is over Elliott’s head. Lloyds and Scottish Motor Auctions the lack of redress for a company director and company would now take over the company, so the bank was still in this situation. Neither Lloyds nor PwC has answered achieving its aim, despite Keith Elliott’s resourcefulness the specific questions—about who aborted which deal, in getting the £2 million paid off. why and when—that I and Keith Elliott have put to The central question, therefore, becomes who aborted them. Lloyds has been helpful in giving its side of the the deal with Scottish Motor Auctions. A director of story, but it still has not answered the questions and it Scottish Motor Auctions said that it had been given a will not agree to an independent investigation by a very clear steer that SMA’s bid would be unacceptable— liquidator that Elliott will fund personally to prove that unacceptable, presumably, to the bank. I have had a he was right. It has also prevented disclosure by six considerably long letter of explanation from the bank, directors after he won a court order for disclosure of and I am grateful for that. It has given me an explanation their internal papers. some of which is actually correct. The bank says that it PricewaterhouseCoopers—a distinguished name—has did not abort the Scottish Motor Auctions deal, and it been even less helpful. Elliott’s inquiries were answered points to PricewaterhouseCoopers. PwC has refused to by a lawyer’s letter, saying that his queries were answer any questions on the issue, so I do not know “calculated to cause annoyance and inconvenience to our client”. whether the deal was aborted by Mr Warnett or by his That’s a nice one. PwC has not answered my questions, boss Ian Green—they both worked in the same office either. It will not correspond further. It has told Elliot and shared the same secretary—but I do know that to sue it. All of that is, to me, as clear an admission of aborting the Scottish Motor Auctions deal made the guilt on the part of PwC as we are going to get. It can difference to PwC’s fees, which went from £10,000 for get away with it, because the regulation of accountancy the SMA deal, if it had gone through, to £500,000 for and insolvency is handled by the regulator, which is the carrying out the administration, which Lloyds wanted Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and to do. The total cost of that administration, including Wales. That would better be renamed the “society for lawyers’ fees and everything, came to £1.2 million. the prevention of cruelty to the big four accountancy houses”, which manage the institute’s staff, provide In some respects, that is the end of the story. Keith time off for their partners to serve the institute, dominate Elliott was forced out and to get his overdraft, he had its proceedings and make it judge and jury in their own been forced to sign a warrant to the bank, which is case. It has not investigated Elliott’s claims. It has told something banks tend to force on customers now, giving him that his redress is now by means of judicial review, it the option to purchase, which it now proposed to which it is not, of course, because that is out of time. exercise, excluding Keith Elliott entirely. That was what The Financial Reporting Council, which is the regulator he was told by post earlier in December. That means of regulators, will not investigate because, it says, the that a company that was making, that year, £2.5 million, number of people affected is small and doing so is not before interest and tax, was put into administration by in the public interest. Well, if investigating the theft of a PwC and bought back by Lloyds and Scottish Motor company is not in the public interest, it beats me what is. Auctions. It is now functioning again and generating The Minister and the Insolvency Service both say considerable profit for them. Elliott has been forced they have no standing in the matter. The problem that out, and Scottish Motor Auctions, Lloyds bank, and we are talking about is the theft of a viable, profitable presumably PwC, which handled the administration, company by one of the big banks, in close co-operation— are laughing all the way to the bank, having made a very conspiracy, one might say—with PricewaterhouseCoopers. considerable, generous profit out of the deal—out of What I am asking this morning, therefore, is, first, that effectively stealing the company. Elliott is left owing there be an official inquiry into this company theft, £2 million on a warrant that he signed to get the £2 which should cover the question whether this is going million from Lloyds in the first place. on with other banks—whether other companies are In my view, the way in which the company was taken being taken over by the banks, in collusion with accountancy over does not just smell—it stinks. It is a monstrous houses, in the same way. It is in effect the theft of theft of the company. The Independent Banking Advisory companies. Service, which Keith Elliott consulted, has confirmed I am asking, secondly, for effective independent regulation that this is happening elsewhere to other companies of accountancy, audit and insolvency. Regulation by taken over by banks in this fashion. IBAS says that the the Institute of Chartered Accountants, the protective banks are being protected by Government and have a body for the big four, is just not enough, and it means “special relationship” with them. I quote from a letter that the big four are in effect their own masters and take of 28 September 2012 in which IBAS states that that their own decisions. That is a totally undesirable situation. special relationship The public and companies must have some right of “has allowed the banks and other professionals with whom they redress and right of appeal—some knowledge that there have conspired—to plunder and gain control of very profitable will be an independent inquiry into abuses such as this. business, which the banks had marked as targets”— I am asking thirdly for the effective regulation of the banks to ensure that they do their job, which is lending as Lloyds had marked Premier Motor Auctions— to support small and medium-sized enterprises, rather “…deliberately using the insolvency industry as a shield to conceal than using the power they have from granting overdrafts many acts of deception and fraud.” to take them over. 215WH Premier Motor Auctions12 NOVEMBER 2013 Premier Motor Auctions 216WH
I am asking, as a general issue, that the enormous apply to him. The issues about a conflict of interest power of those big beasts the banks—banks that are have been investigated, and I will come to the way in too big to fail and are in effect protected by Government— which that complaint was handled. and the enormous power of the big four accountancy The hon. Gentleman also highlighted the two different houses, which are too big to control and in effect deals that seemed to be on the table in December 2008. regulate themselves through the Institute of Chartered One was much more appealing to Mr Elliott. The other, Accountants, be restrained. We need a healthy, vigorous which ultimately was the one undertaken, was clearly and open environment for business and we need institutions not as acceptable to Mr Elliott. I understand the hon. such as the banks and the big accountancy houses to be Gentleman’s concern about where that decision was accountable and effectively regulated in the public interest. made, but I do not have the power to secure that Everywhere, great power such as exists in the hands of information. the banks and the accountancy houses must be accountable, That said, I strongly encourage any company receiving and it should be in this instance. correspondence from a Member of Parliament about a constituency case to engage with that Member of 11.15 am Parliament and answer their questions. After all, we The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, elect 650 MPs to represent everybody up and down the Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): First, I congratulate country, and the office of Member of Parliament should the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) not be disrespected by any individual company. It would on securing the debate. He has been a tenacious advocate be helpful if the relevant companies found it in themselves on behalf of his constituent, Mr Elliott, and his concerns to engage a little more constructively and answer some about the administration of the companies of which he of the questions that the hon. Gentleman understandably was the managing director. I applaud the hon. Gentleman’s put to them on behalf of his constituent. work on behalf of constituents generally, which we all The hon. Gentleman highlighted a couple of deals, wish to undertake as MPs in our own constituencies. which go by the interesting names of Project Tic and Project Toc. In August 2008, Lloyds were apparently I hope to be able to address some of the points that insisting that the company went into administration, the hon. Gentleman has raised on this specific case, which he referred to as Project Tic. Project Toc involved although he will appreciate that there are limits to what Endless LLP and Lloyds buying the company out of I can say—and, indeed, do—on this case. However, he administration through a specially created new company. has also raised his concern that these issues exist more It is difficult to comment on those specifics, because the widely, so I will also touch on what the Government sale did not take place under either of those projects. intend to do to address issues in the insolvency market more widely. Mr Elliott complained to the ICAEW, which is the insolvency regulator of the administrator, Mr Green. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it investigated the complaint, [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] which involved the potential conflict of interest around The concerns that the hon. Gentleman has outlined Mr Green becoming administrator when previously, it regarding this case include the alleged conflict of interest is alleged, there was a material relationship between involving the administrator, the accountancy firm PwC PWC and the companies involved. and the bankers, Lloyds. Mr Elliott has made it clear The ICAEW investigation concluded that no conflict that he considers that the close relationship between of interest arose, on the basis that PwC was acting as PwC and the bank enabled his companies to be sold in investigating accountants for the bank prior to the an inappropriate and irregular way. The hon. Gentleman administration, and therefore it was not contrary to the described that as, in effect, the theft of the company. I code of ethics with which all insolvency practitioners appreciate that his constituent feels very strongly about must comply.The ICAEW also looked at PwC’s negotiating this issue, not least because this was his livelihood and to sell the business in the days before Mr Green was his company. We all understand that. appointed, and stated that that likewise did not breach the code because PwC was trying to maximise asset The hon. Gentleman also outlined his concerns about realisations, which was compatible with Mr Green’s the wider context of the banks acting with the big four duties as administrator. accountancy firms to sell businesses at a profit for themselves, to the detriment of creditors and those who Every insolvency practitioner should be aware of had been running the companies. I recognise that people potential conflicts of interest. There was an investigation are worried about the independence of insolvency in this case, because there clearly should have been practitioners and I will come to those matters, but I awareness of that, but if an insolvency practitioner should perhaps try to manage expectations. I may be works for a particular firm, a conflict of interest is not unable to satisfy the hon. Gentleman on the specifics of automatically inevitable. The investigation found that this case, because I do not have the power to intervene there was no conflict of interest in this circumstance. in individual insolvencies. The issue is not whether I am Austin Mitchell: In fact, as the Minister pointed out willing to do so; it is simply that I am not able to do so. earlier, Mr Warnett was not appointed as a director, but The hon. Gentleman will inevitably be more familiar the letter from Lloyds specifically said that he was to be with the intricate details of the case than I am, but my a non-executive director. On that basis, he was received understanding is that Irving Warnett was introduced, by the company and gave advice to create the £2 million he says, as a non-executive director and a critical friend hole in the accounts. of Premier Motor Auctions. My understanding is also The ICAEW investigation was only a partial investigation that, whatever discussions took place, he was never of part of the complaint. The complaint, which put actually appointed as a non-executive director, so the three headings together, had to be treated as a whole to legislation on directors’ responsibilities does not specifically show the conspiracy, but the ICAEW said that it could 217WH Premier Motor Auctions12 NOVEMBER 2013 Premier Motor Auctions 218WH
[Austin Mitchell] Graham would be appointed to undertake an independent review of the pre-pack procedure. The review is under not be treated in that fashion and that it would investigate way and is considering, among other things, whether only part of it. That investigation was certainly far from pre-packs provide value for creditors and how confidence thorough, because it has left open the question of in the procedure can be improved. We have passed on whether PwC could act for both the company and the the concerns that Mr Elliott raised to the review team, purchaser in the administration. as part of its evidence-gathering process, so that it can look at a variety of different cases where people have Jo Swinson: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, Mr Elliott been worried about what has happened. The review is was unhappy with the investigation and therefore also expected to conclude by spring next year—in just a few asked the Insolvency Service to use its oversight role to months’ time. review whether the ICAEW had dealt with the case The Insolvency Service has also worked with the properly in its investigation of the complaint. The Insolvency regulators to develop a revised standard for pre-packs, Service concluded that the ICAEW had adhered to its known as SIP16—statement of insolvency practice 16. complaints processes and that the finding of the It requires insolvency practitioners to provide earlier investigation committee was not unreasonable. and more detailed information to creditors about valuations, I have not seen the letter of engagement from August marketing and the justification for a pre-pack. 2008 on the appointment of a director, but whatever is Importantly, where there is evidence of abuse by an in that letter, if somebody is to be appointed as a insolvency practitioner, creditors can now use a new director, a formal process must be undergone through single complaints gateway. It is a single point of access Companies House. That did not happen, so there was for complainants and therefore much easier to use, no status as non-executive director, even if it was supposed given the fragmented regulatory regime with different to happen. The investigation took place and was looked regulators. It will also make it easier for the Insolvency at by the Insolvency Service, and that is where the Service to oversee the progress of complaints. Common powers we have get us to in this circumstance. sanctions guidelines have been introduced by the majority I am absolutely sympathetic. I understand the concerns of insolvency regulators, to create more consistency in of Mr Elliott and the hon. Gentleman. It is important disciplinary standards. that those who deal with the insolvency of a company are seen as independent, and I understand why on this In conclusion, I shall turn to the role of banks. Banks occasion there is not necessarily confidence that that will undertake reviews to assess the viability of a company was the case. I stress to all insolvency practitioners that for continued or enhanced financial support. As a they need to look long and hard at their position when fundamental feature of our financial and insolvency they take on the administration of a company, to see law, lenders that have valid security must be able to whether there is any potential conflict. They should appoint an agent, such as an investigating accountant, take appointments only where they feel that they are to protect the value of that security. Banks also need to able to act with independence. act responsibly and consider the implications of any decision they ultimately take. The hon. Gentleman placed the issues raised by the case in the wider context. It is helpful to look more The Government recognise the problems there have generally at what we are doing for companies that find been in the banking sector, which have done a considerable themselves in a similar situation. The Insolvency Service amount to undermine people’s faith in the banking is taking an increased interest in conflicts of interest. It system. We recently responded to the report from the is focusing its oversight regulation work on the specific Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, which issue of insolvency practitioner independence. When it marks the next step in the Government’s plan to improve goes out to monitor insolvency regulators, it looks at confidence and build a banking sector that upholds how those regulators consider alleged conflict of interest high standards of ethics and professionalism. We will cases and whether the current code of ethics is robust continue to strengthen standards in banking, by working enough. with the regulators to strengthen corporate governance For example, the Secretary of State recently wound and ensure that firms have good systems in place to up a number of introducer firms that had inappropriate maintain standards on ethics and culture. Such issues relationships with insolvency practitioners. Creditors are important. and complainants continue to express concerns about I appreciate that what I have outlined on insolvency the effectiveness of the regulatory regime for insolvency and banking will not necessarily help in the specific case practitioners. Stronger oversight powers would help to brought to us today, but I hope that it provides reassurance improve confidence in the regime. We will therefore that we are aware of the important general issues and bring forward proposals, when we can find time within are taking action. the legislative programme, to strengthen the powers of the Secretary of State as the oversight regulator. The case brings to mind issues more generally. Many hon. Members have expressed significant concerns about 11.30 am the pre-pack process. In July, I announced that Teresa Sitting suspended. 219WH 12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 220WH
Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme Mr Clappison: I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Does he not agree that Iran has shown ample evidence of its hostility towards a peaceful solution to the situation between the Palestinians [JIM SHERIDAN in the Chair] and the Israelis, and that Iran’s aggression is in fact directed towards the existence of Israel? 2.30 pm Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): I remind colleagues that Mr Hollobone: I agree with my hon. Friend that Iran although there are a number of issues involving Iran has said some unfriendly and unpleasant things about that could be discussed, today we are talking about its the state of Israel and its right to exist, which he and I nuclear weapons programme. and most Members totally abhor. The question in the previous intervention was whether Israel’s possession of a nuclear weapon was not a big issue in itself. Of course Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Thank you it is, but the whole Israeli mindset has to do with for your presence in the Chair, Mr Sheridan, and I defending Israel’s people, not projecting aggression thank Mr Speaker for granting this debate. May I say elsewhere. how pleased I am to see a Minister from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office here at a Defence-allocated I know that the hon. Member for Islington North debate? I see it as good evidence of joint working (Jeremy Corbyn) is looking at me quizzically because he between two important Departments. I am also delighted will not agree with much of that, but the perspective of to see so many other eminent parliamentarians in the the state of Israel is that the Jewish diaspora throughout Chamber. I welcome interventions, hostile or friendly, the world, but mainly in eastern and western Europe, during my remarks. suffered the horrors of the holocaust, and out of that was born the state of Israel. He and I and others can Iran’s nuclear weapons programme poses the greatest agree or disagree about that history, but the fact is that threat to global security that we face. Surprisingly, the half the present world’s Jewish population lives in the issue is not being taken seriously enough in Parliament, state of Israel, and they have found nowhere safe in or indeed by the international community. All eyes the world throughout the history of the Jewish people. seem to be focused on Syria, Afghanistan or Somalia, The state of Israel now offers the best chance for Jewish when actually the greatest risk of a global conflagration people to live in peace. They have developed a nuclear comes from Iran. Iran simply cannot be allowed to have weapon or weapons because they want to defend themselves. a nuclear weapon. There are elements within the regime They do not want to deploy that weapon against anyone who are mad and bad enough to use it, and their target else; they just want to be left in peace. could be Israel, Saudi Arabia or any number of other countries in the region or further afield. I contend that Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): I we must take the issue far more seriously, and that the fully accept many of my hon. Friend’s arguments about longer it goes unresolved, the greater the risk that Iran an expansionist versus a defending nation, but within will get a nuclear weapon or weapons and develop the the United Nations and the global community, there ballistic technology to project the weapon not only in are rules about the development and holding of nuclear the region but further afield. or any other weapons. Iran is a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, which imposes certain obligations Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): The hon. that ultimately involve its being taken to the Security Gentleman is generous in promising to give way, although Council; Israel is not. Does he therefore recognise the he might regret it. He and I had an interesting week in disparity there, and will he join me in urging Israel to the delegation to Gaza, and he is well aware of Israel’s sign the NNPT, or at least to allow inspection of its behaviour concerning the encirclement of Gaza and the sites? treatment of the Palestinian people. Israel, of course, is a nuclear-armed power. Does he not think that the key Mr Hollobone: Yes, I agree that Israel should be a to the issue in that region is for Israel to divest itself of signatory, but there would be no question of Israel nuclear weapons in order to remove the potential for a giving up its nuclear weapons. Enough bad things have nuclear arms race in the region? been done to the Jewish people over two millennia that they simply will not give them up. Mr Hollobone: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question, and I enjoyed our joint visit to Gaza. He and I Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I am keen agree on many issues involving the Palestinian Authority to get the focus back on Iran. One way to do so might and Israel. We can certainly agree that the situation be to point out that if Israel were led by undemocratic, must be resolved quickly, and that the current US-led tyrannical religious fundamentalists and Iran was led negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians offer by a democratically elected Parliament and Government perhaps the best chance of resolving those issues since that were constitutionally capable of being removed the state of Israel was founded. without strife, we might be having this debate about Israel’s nuclear weapons rather than Iran’s. The key lies Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): Will my in democratisation, or the lack of it, in the respective hon. Friend give way? countries.
Mr Hollobone: I will happily give way. In answering Mr Hollobone: As always, my hon. Friend is on top of this intervention, I will also try to tackle the previous matters. He makes an extremely pertinent point, and he intervention. is quite right to bring us back to Iran. 221WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 222WH
[Mr Hollobone] I am in no way an expert on nuclear technology, but I have read enough to be convinced that Iran does not Yes, this is about Iran’s nuclear weapons programme. want to develop nuclear technology simply to provide Would we be having this debate if the state of Israel did power for its own people. It is hellbent on developing a not exist? Perhaps, but the threat of Iran deploying a nuclear weapons programme. The Foreign Secretary nuclear weapon would not be nearly as great. The mad confirmed to me on the Floor of the House that the UK and bad people in Iran have said often enough how much Government are convinced that Iran has enriched uranium they despise the state of Israel. There has been argument to at least 20%. That is way beyond the 3.5% needed for about whether they have said that Israel should be civilian nuclear use, which suggests that the country is wiped off the map, but that is clearly the intention of trying to develop a military capability. My understanding some people in positions of authority in Iran. is that uranium for use in a nuclear warhead must be Iran is the biggest state sponsor of terrorism worldwide, enriched beyond 90%, and although the gap between not just in the middle east but in Europe and further 90% and 20% might seem large, in nuclear physics terms afield, and it has an appalling human rights record. It is it is actually quite small. Uranium enriched to 20% is a very unpleasant country led by a very unpleasant more than half way to weapons-grade uranium. One of regime. The idea that it should have at its disposal the the worries about the potential deal now supposedly ability to deploy a nuclear warhead or warheads should being negotiated in Geneva is that Iran might be left fill the world with absolute horror. Ever since 1945, with a stockpile of uranium enriched to 20%, which it with a brief interruption for the Cuban missile crisis, could bank and use to develop a nuclear warhead in the the assumption has been that nuclear weapons are so future. Any interim agreement that allows the Iranians horrible that they will never be used, but I think we to hang on to their nuclear stockpile is not worth could envisage a situation in which Iran, if it had a having. nuclear warhead, might well use it. If a future regime had the ability to manufacture a warhead and the Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Perhaps ballistic capability to deliver it on Israel, it might well I am wrong, but I understood the Foreign Secretary to decide to take the chance to wipe out 7 million Israelis. say in a press interview that an interim agreement was being discussed, and a long-term agreement would be Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I congratulate considered later on. I do not understand the concern the hon. Gentleman on securing this most timely debate. about an interim agreement. Like the hon. Gentleman, Does he agree that although we have been talking about I am no expert on nuclear weapons. Israel, we must underline the fears and anxieties of Mr Hollobone: There might be a problem here with many of Iran’s Arab neighbours? Should we not be my accent and that of the hon. Gentleman. I understood concerned about reports that Saudi Arabia will look the Foreign Secretary to be talking about an interim elsewhere to bolster its nuclear capability, or investigate agreement prior to arriving, we hope, at a full accord. the possibility of so doing, if Iran is given what it The problem with an interim, short-term agreement is considers to be a good deal? A good deal for Iran that, if I am right—I hope I am not—and the Iranians would, of course, be a bad deal as far as everyone else want to develop a nuclear warhead, such an agreement was concerned. Not only Israel and the west but Iran’s might give the Iranians time to develop enough enriched Arab neighbours are concerned about the situation. uranium to make a nuclear warhead. An interim agreement might, effectively, give the regime diplomatic cover to Mr Hollobone: The right hon. Gentleman knows complete its nuclear weapons programme without the more about religious divides than most of us in the international community’s agreement. House. In many respects, the split between Protestants and Roman Catholics is similar to that between Shi’as Mr Cunningham: It is not for me to defend the and Sunnis. The divides between Shi’a Iran and Sunni Foreign Secretary, but as I understand it, he was talking Saudi Arabia date back centuries. If Saudi Arabia feels about weeks rather than a long-term process that might that the wrong deal is negotiated in Geneva, there is a allow Iran to develop along the lines the hon. Gentleman real chance that the Saudis will buy nuclear weapons suggests. I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman’s fears from Pakistan, because they will want to defend themselves would be realised within the short period of time the against the threat from Iran. Foreign Secretary was talking about. The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that the situation is not just about Israel versus Iran; it Mr Hollobone: There we disagree, because my is about Iran versus, frankly, the rest of the world. That understanding is that it is not a matter of weeks. I am is yet another reason why the international community sure that the Minister will enlighten both of us in his simply cannot allow Iran to have nuclear weapons, response, but my understanding is that it would take because the likelihood of its wanting to use them in months or even years to reach an interim agreement. future is simply too great. That comes back to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): I East (Dr Lewis). Iran’s horrible regime is far removed congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. from any process of democracy, and we can easily The prospect of the debate clearly brought Iran to the envisage circumstances in the near, medium or distant negotiating table last weekend, so I congratulate him on future in which someone in authority in the country his international reach. Does he share my biggest concern might decide, “We have got a nuclear weapon. Let us that all the dancing around the diplomatic handbags—talks use it.” That is a frightening prospect, which puts our about talks, talks about resuming talks, talks about worries about places such as Syria, Afghanistan and inspectors going back in and talks about what they can Somalia into the shade. It is the big issue on which the inspect and when they can inspect it—is a typical conjuring international community must concentrate. trick by Iran to distract the international community 223WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 224WH while it gets across the line and builds a bomb? Should Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): not the Foreign Office be extremely cautious about any Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is unlikely that gift horses from Iran? Rouhani has any serious differences with the Ahmadinejad regime? The fact that he was one of six chosen from Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend speaks wise words, 3,000 potential candidates by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and I am not surprised because he is always on top of indicates that he is probably completely at one with such important issues. them. Is it likely that somebody who wanted to execute That leads me on to a point I was going to make demonstrators campaigning for freedom shares any of about the new President of Iran, Hassan Rouhani, who the values of democracy or of the west? was elected in June 2013. President Rouhani is meant to be the bee’s knees. The former Foreign Secretary, the Mr Hollobone: The hon. Gentleman speaks a great right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), has said deal of sense and makes some extremely pertinent points. how much he admires him. Hassan Rouhani spent some I hope the Foreign Office has taken note of his intervention. time at Glasgow Caledonian university and knows this I suspect that, going back to the 1930s, the default country well, but he is not a pleasant individual at all. It position of the Foreign Office and the Ministry of is not as though he has recently emerged with an Defence is to try to arrive at an agreement to solve our unblemished record; he has been deeply involved in the problems through international accord. Of course, all unpleasant Iranian regime for quite some time. He was of us see a lot of sense in that, but it must be stated in involved in the Islamic revolution when it started in this case that no deal is probably far better than a bad 1978, and he helped Ayatollah Khomeini found the deal. A bad deal will not solve anything. In fact, a bad regime. Between August 2003 and October 2005, the deal will allow the Iranians under their present leadership, now President Rouhani was Iran’s chief negotiator in with all the other people behind the scenes, to cross that nuclear weapons talks. In 2004, he gave a speech to the nuclear finish line. Once Iran has a nuclear weapon, the Supreme Cultural Revolution Council, in which he negotiating stance of the Foreign Office and the said: international community will be blown out of the water. “While we were talking with the Europeans in Tehran, we were This is our best chance to stop nuclear proliferation in installing equipment in parts of the [nuclear conversion] facility the middle east. in Isfahan. By creating a calm environment, we were able to complete the work there”. Mr Dodds: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Those words reinforce the point made by my hon. whatever the merits of the argument about an interim Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green deal giving Iran the time to develop nuclear weapons, (Mike Freer) that Iran may well be using the talks and the issue is about Iran being allowed to retain the the supposed rapprochement as a ruse to cover up the capacity to do so? That is crucial, as is the easing of fact that it is quite close to developing a nuclear warhead sanctions. Surely one of the greatest issues for the but, critically, needs six to 12 months to finish its Iranian regime is the crippling effect of sanctions, and programme. What better way to ensure that it has the one of its main desires is to ease that situation. It is time and space to complete the manufacture of a nuclear estimated—I would be grateful if he gave us more warhead than to engage the international community in information about this—that the easing of sanctions talks? might be worth up to $20 billion to the Iranian regime, which is a major motivating factor and a good one. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I thank my Iran’s retention of the capacity to develop nuclear weapons, hon. Friend for bringing forward a debate of such great rather than its willingness to do so or its actually doing concern to us all. Does he see any grounds for optimism—or so, is the key issue. only danger—in an Iranian leader who is so much more able to enter into discussions than his predecessor, Mr Hollobone: The right hon. Gentleman’s powerful Ahmadinejad, who was clearly a danger to everybody; intervention is absolutely right. I hope the Foreign or is he just packaging and is there nothing at all in his Office is better informed than I am and can give us the greater willingness to talk with other leaders? statistics. I am not sure, however, whether sanctions have brought the Iranians to the table; I do not know. It Mr Hollobone: It is difficult enough to be minor might well be that that is nothing to do with sanctions, politicians in this country, as we are, having to deal with but is all a ruse for Iran to buy diplomatic cover. What different issues and factions; it must be a nightmare do I mean by that? If Iran can be seen to engage with being a politician in an unstable and unpleasant place the P5+1, it makes it much more difficult for the Israelis such as Iran. I am sure that President Rouhani has to to take out Iran’s nuclear programme with military balance all sorts of different issues and say things he strikes. That is the point of the rapprochement. does not believe to appease one faction in relation to The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that any another. agreement, interim or full, that allows the Iranians to I hope I am wrong, but I suspect that Iran is attempting retain their capability to make a weapon—perhaps not to buy space to cross the nuclear finish line, so that it now, but in the future—would be a bad deal that was can have a nuclear weapon. The prestige of President not worth having. From the perspective of Israel and Rouhani and others in the Iranian regime would then Saudi Arabia, and I hope ours, any capability left in be at its peak, because Iran would be a nuclear power, Iran that enables the regime or a future one to develop able to throw its weight around in the middle east and nuclear warheads should be completely unacceptable. the world as never before. If I am wrong, that is great, Iran currently has all sorts of capability. The centrifuge but if I am right, we face the prospect of Iran being a capability has recently been beefed up, with IR-2 centrifuges nuclear power. Once it is such a power, it will be too late that can enrich uranium five times faster than the old for the world to do anything about it. ones. There is the heavy water production plant at 225WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 226WH
[Mr Hollobone] many are simply unaware of the sense of anger there is at how Iran has been treated by the west ever since the Arak, which nuclear inspectors have never been allowed end of the first world war. inside. There is a facility at Fordow that is underground There has been the exploitation of Iranian oil by the for one reason—so that nobody can get to it. There is Anglo-Iranian Oil Corporation, which later became also the centrifuge capability at Natanz. British Petroleum. Britain has made a huge amount of Mr Clappison: My hon. Friend is making a powerful money out of Iran over the decades. Likewise, the case about the multiple avenues Iran has to achieving to coup—a UK and CIA operation—organised against a nuclear capability, which are in addition to the Iranian the Mossadegh Government in 1952 is remembered, regime’s history of stalling, lies and concealment. Would and people are angry about it. The support that we gave he welcome a statement from the Minister that the to the Shah, and that the Shah gave to BP, resulted in a Government and the international community will be loss of national well-being. rigorous and exacting in their approach to the regime There is a history of which we should not be unaware, and will leave it nowhere near the threshold of obtaining and we must think about those things. The Islamic a nuclear capability? revolution of 1979 was a product of an awful lot of those issues and that pressure, including the appalling Mr Hollobone: I would welcome such a reassurance, behaviour of the SAVAK secret police under the Shah, but I am also looking forward to hearing my hon. which paralleled the behaviour of the secret police Friend’s speech. I will soon sit down, because I have under the Ayatollah after the revolution. At the time, already spoken for far too long. Almost every Member though, they were seen to be a step forward. present is more qualified to speak on these issues than Then there was the Iran-Iraq war after the break with me, and I am interested to hear what they say. the USA, in which the west supported Iraq against Iran. It seems to me that we face in Iran a country that That terrible conflict cost the lives of hundreds of wants to develop a nuclear warhead and that is mad and thousands of people—possibly 500,000 people. It was bad enough, either now or at some point, to have a high an utterly useless and ghastly war. I recall visiting the likelihood of deploying such a weapon. I do not believe border area between Iran and Iraq some years later and that that is fanciful talk; I think it is a definite prospect, was taken to a glorified scrap metal yard, which was in about which we should be very worried. In the next six fact heaps of old planes, tanks and armoured personnel months or so, we have a chance to negotiate a proper carriers that bore the markings of every arms manufacturer deal that will put Iran’s chances of making a nuclear in the world bar none. The people of Iran and Iraq have weapon out of reach and give Israel, Saudi Arabia and suffered a great deal. every other country in the region the security they need, as we look forward to what I hope will prove to be a We come now to the wish of Iran to develop its own much more peaceful century around the world than the nuclear power facilities. I do not think that Iran or any last one. other country should develop nuclear power because it is an intrinsically dangerous form of power generation. Several hon. Members rose— I am probably in a minority in the Chamber in having that position, but that is my view. However, in law, Iran Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. I ask colleagues to is certainly entitled to develop nuclear power for peaceful keep in mind during their speeches that I intend to call use, although it is certainly not entitled to develop the Front Benchers at about 3.40 pm. nuclear weapons. We then move on to the issue of whether Iran has 2.58 pm nuclear weapons or the capability or intention of having Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I congratulate them. Along with the hon. Member for Wyre and the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on Preston North (Mr Wallace) and two others, I had an securing the debate and on kindly taking so many interesting discussion with the inspectors from the interventions, which was very welcome. International Atomic Energy Authority in Vienna on behalf of the Iran group. It was a fascinating experience. I say at the outset that I do not want the continuation The inspectors confirmed that as of that time, Iran did of any wars in the region of Iran. I want a process that not possess nuclear weapons and was not in a position will bring about disarmament, so I approach the debate to make nuclear weapons. It is important to make that from that standpoint. I also approach it from the standpoint clear. of a representative of an inner-London constituency, in which many Iranian refugees live. They form almost a Iran has a fatwa against nuclear weapons, imposed by timeline of the political changes in Iran: there are the Grand Ayatollah, who said that it would be un-Islamic refugees from the Shah’s period, the Islamic revolution to develop nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction. period and all the later regimes. The human rights Clearly then, there are many people in Iran who are abuses of Persian Iranians as well as of Kurdish people strongly opposed to the country having nuclear weapons. and others are very real to me and to the people in my That is not to say that there are not people there who constituency. I am not unaware of Iran’s appalling support them; I am sure that there are. human rights record and the continuing executions that Iran is, and has been for a very long time, a signatory go on. Any pressure brought to bear on Iran must be as to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. It is therefore much about a dialogue about human rights as anything open to inspection—not necessarily under the voluntary else. or supplementary protocols, but certainly within the I am acutely aware of the history and deep ignorance terms of the mandatory part of the NPT. Every other of Iran in the rest of the world. Many think that Iran is country in the region is a signatory to it except Israel, part of the Arab world, which it clearly is not, and which is the only one that possesses nuclear weapons; 227WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 228WH apparently, despite the Foreign Secretary’s unwillingness massive flows of refugees and the carnage in Syria just to answer this question yesterday, it has 200 nuclear continue. The danger then moves on to the possibility warheads, which is rather more than Britain and France. of a war with Iran. We must negotiate with Iran. We must respect it and The nuclear non-proliferation treaty review conference its culture, build a relationship with it and recognise envisaged a nuclear weapons-free middle east and tasked that it is still a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation Finland with setting up a conference to bring that treaty. The danger would be if it walked away from that about. That conference did not take place, and, at last treaty and chose to develop nuclear weapons, because year’s preparatory conference for NPT review in Geneva, Saudi Arabia would do the same and there would then which I attended, we heard speeches from all the countries be an arms race within the region. Some rather zany of the region. There was universal anger that this nuclear commentators in the US think that Iran should get nuclear weapons-free middle east proposal had not been taken weapons on the basis that it would create a regional further forward. balance and then we would move on. Balancing nuclear The Egyptian delegation—this was before the coup weapons terror is not a way to bring about peace. in Egypt—made it clear that Egypt was extremely angry I thank the hon. Member for Kettering for securing about that, and peremptorily withdrew from the conference. the debate, which is extremely helpful. I hope the As yet it has not completely withdrawn from the non- Government will get the message that preparing to proliferation treaty system. Other countries made it reopen diplomatic relations with Iran is welcome, as is clear that they were also extremely angry. It is quite the fact that discussions are going on. I look forward to obvious that unless progress is made on a nuclear the Minister’s reply, and I hope he will cover human weapons-free middle east, which obviously must include rights in Iran, as well as nuclear power and the potential Iran and Israel, then clearly Saudi Arabia, Egypt and for others in the region to develop nuclear weapons. others could start to develop nuclear weapons. If anyone I hope the Government will put serious effort into has nuclear power, it is not impossible for them to supporting the nuclear non-proliferation treaty to bring extend that into getting nuclear weapons. We must be about the dream of a nuclear weapons-free zone across well aware of that. the middle east, because that would help to bring about Since the election of President Rouhani, there has a much longer-term peace throughout the region. been a narrative that he is a huge reformer and a liberal 3.10 pm compared with everything that has gone before. He is certainly different from previous Presidents; he has a Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I congratulate wish for a relationship and an understanding with the the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on west, and I suspect that he is feeding into the wishes of securing this timely debate. I do not agree with all the an awful lot of ordinary Iranian people who also want points he made, but he made some important points to have a better relationship with the rest of the world. I about, for instance, Iran’s stockpile of enriched uranium am no less aware than anyone else here of the human being among the considerations the negotiators must rights abuses that have happened and continue to happen take on board. in Iran. However, such considerations do not restrict The news that the Foreign Secretary brought to the British negotiations or friendly relations with Bahrain, House yesterday about progress in the negotiations, or Saudi Arabia or many other places that have totally the talks about talks, and about Foreign Minister Zarif appalling human rights records. We should be proving to be someone whom western powers could do condemnatory of human rights abuses wherever they business with, was very welcome. We should reflect for a occur across the whole region. minute on how far we have come in a year and a half. I was looking back on some notes from May last year, The non-intervention in Syria by Britain and the and we were talking then about the risk of strikes on United States has had some interesting effects. One is Iran and of a regional war being sparked by preventive that within a few days of the decision there were conferences strikes against Iran by the United States or by conflict with Lavrov and John Kerry.There was a serious discussion breaking out over the strait of Hormuz. The situation about removing chemical weapons from Syria—and now is not quite unrecognisable, but it has moved a that is now happening, which is good. There have been considerable distance. much more serious discussions about getting a Geneva II process under way, which clearly must involve Iran if One crucial change is the election in the summer of it is to mean anything. President Rouhani. We may think that the electoral process was flawed, and we may think that the constitution Surely we should be saying to Iran that we do not of Iran is flawed and still gives too much power to the want anyone to develop nuclear weapons in the region, theocracy, but the election was undoubtedly genuinely that we will push really hard on getting a nuclear contested, and it has undoubtedly changed the political weapons-free zone conference to ensure that there is no landscape. We must therefore be a little wary of doing a requirement on anybody to have nuclear weapons and reverse of the Whig interpretation of history: nobody that we will include Iran fully in Geneva II. The rather naively believes that things will always get better, but we strange insistence on the acceptance by Iran of everything must never fall into the trap of thinking things can to do with Geneva I—it is not clear what it does and never get better. We must take advantage of the situation does not agree with on that—should not be used as an when someone such as President Rouhani is elected, obstacle to getting the country involved. Clearly, if because he is at least saying many of the right things, there is to be a ceasefire and a long-term peace in Syria, and he appears to be acting in many of the right ways. it has to come about with the involvement of Iran as In its statements over the past six months on President well as of Russia, all the forces in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Rouhani and the situation in Iran, the Foreign Office Qatar and everybody else, otherwise the implications of has been very cautious and guarded, and it has talked 229WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 230WH
[Martin Horwood] linked to this issue? That must be part of a solution in the middle east, because we cannot have a settlement about actions speaking louder than words. I have sometimes with Iran in isolation. Does the hon. Gentleman also found that a little frustrating, and we could have seen a not think that the settlements Israel has been building bit more enthusiasm for the reforming faction in Iran. have thrown some difficulties in the way of the road However, if I am criticising the Foreign Office for going map to peace? Finally, despite what the hon. Member a bit too slowly, and others are criticising it for going for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) said, there were too fast, it has perhaps got things just about right. demonstrations two or three years ago in Iran, and the We should applaud the diplomatic efforts that have opposition came close to winning the election. Internally, been made by British, international and, in this case, that may be motivating the regime a lot more than the European Union diplomats. I was struck by the Foreign hon. Gentleman suggested. Secretary’s praise of Baroness Ashton in the House yesterday. She is, as a Brit, demonstrating not only the Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. Can we keep great British tradition of diplomacy, but the potential interventions short? I hope to call the Front-Bench for the European Union to play a positive role in world speakers at 3.40 pm. diplomacy, not displacing, but complementing, national diplomacy. That is very positive. Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman makes some There are three points I would like to make. The first important points, although we are also seeing positive builds on my point about seeing the positive potential, engagement by Palestine and Israel in peace talks, so rather than always accentuating the negative. I would that is another area where we can accentuate the positive. ask the Foreign Office to be robust not only in pursuing My point is that we should be clear with our traditional the positive avenue of negotiations, but in standing up allies in the region that we want to pursue this process to anyone we traditionally think of as an ally who might with Iran robustly. try to stall the negotiations or prevent them from making My second point relates to what the hon. Gentleman too much progress. has just said: this has to be a regional process. I would There are two countries I am particularly concerned therefore like to ask the Minister what the status is of about. One is Saudi Arabia. The Saudi intelligence the proposed plan to move towards talks on a nuclear-free chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, made an interesting middle east. That plan should include Israel as well as comment last month. He said that following Washington’s Iran. It could be revived in the new, more constructive failure to strike Syria and its entering into nuclear talks atmosphere that is emerging. It might also connect with with Iran, there would be a major shift in Saudi Arabia’s other disputes in the region. That plan was on the table relations with it. I would be interested to hear the quite seriously, and I would like to hear where the Minister’s perspective on American-Saudi relations and Foreign Office thinks the talks now lie. on our own relationships with Saudi Arabia, in the My third and final point relates to the non-proliferation context of the Iranian nuclear talks. I hope we will not treaty. It is something of a rich irony that the E3 plus 3 allow Saudi Arabia to stall our progress in this area. could also be described as the N5 plus 1. Here we have Through the channel of this debate, I would tell the six countries lecturing Iran on nuclear proliferation, but Saudi Government that if they look back to the 1990s, five of them hold nuclear weapons themselves—only to the presidencies of Presidents Rafsanjani and Khatami Germany does not. It would send a positive signal if we in Iran, they will see that there were much more cordial discussed our own willingness to look at the nuclear relations between Iran and Saudi Arabia. It has been threshold. There are countries around the world that only since the election of Ahmadinejad in 2005 and have stopped short of it, even though, as in Japan’s case, then the coming to power of King Abdullah that the they probably have the technological capacity to step two countries have got into a regional cold war and over it. We are asking Iran to stop at the nuclear have almost been fighting proxy battles as rival regional threshold or, ideally, to step well back from it, so powers from Bahrain to Syria to other places across the perhaps we should be constructive in looking at whether middle east. That is regrettable, and they should perhaps we can step down the nuclear ladder; indeed, it is realise that the presidency of President Rouhani offers a technically our obligation as a signatory of the nuclear path back to more constructive engagement. non-proliferation treaty to look at progress towards Like the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy disarmament. I will not get sidetracked into a debate on Corbyn), I also have concerns about Israel. We have not Trident like-for-like replacement, but the Liberal Democrat heard very constructive comments from Prime Minister position is clearly that we could make a constructive Netanyahu about the E3 plus 3 talks. He has expressed contribution in that regard. I do not expect Ministers real fear that they will result in a deal that immediately to leap up to support that, but they should “will not work for Israel”. perhaps reflect on what we can do as part of a global However, Israel must also see its long-term interests. process. Surely, the most positive thing for Israel would be a I agree with the hon. Member for Kettering that the process that ultimately leads towards a nuclear-free talks must be robust and real, and that there must be a middle east and certainly one that has a realistic prospect real negotiation that puts real demands on Iran. However, of achieving a nuclear-free Iran. at the same time, we should reflect on the fact that all nuclear weapons are dangerous, and there are probably Mr Jim Cunningham: I apologise to the hon. Member people in every country who are mad or bad enough to for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) for not congratulating use them. The ideal President Obama has set out of a him on securing the debate. Does the hon. Member for world free from nuclear weapons and of a global nuclear Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) not think that the situation disarmament process actually getting under way in the between the Israeli Government and the Palestinians is 21st century is one we in this country should do everything 231WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 232WH we can to support through our fast-improving relations export of terrorism by proxy to other countries in the with Iran and through our own attitude to nuclear region, including Lebanon and Syria; through its armaments. involvement in propping up the Syrian regime now; through its export of worldwide terrorism against Israel 3.19 pm and Israeli citizens; and through its leaders’ aggressive statements in the past. We can have no doubts about the Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): I welcome nature of the regime and the fact that we should not let the debate, which my hon. Friend the Member for nuclear weapons fall into those hands. Kettering (Mr Hollobone) is to be commended on securing. He is right about the importance of the issue, It is right, however, to engage with the regime, and I which is on a different scale from other issues that we support the Government’s approach, but we must are involved in, in the middle east or elsewhere, important take an exacting and resolute approach in negotiations. though those are. We must not exaggerate, as I think the hon. Member for Cheltenham was in danger of doing, any progress that I remind the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin has been made already. We are only at the interim Horwood) that the debate is about Iran, not Israel or stage, and have not even concluded an interim agreement. Saudi Arabia—still less about nuclear disarmament. Let us not rush to say that there is agreement before it Disarmament combined with unreciprocated concessions happens. We need to apply exacting and rigorous to aggressive regimes did not always guarantee a brilliant conditions to the regime and should take the view that if outcome in the previous century. Iran is an aggressive there is any doubt or anything unsatisfactory in any regime. I agree with the comments of the hon. Member negotiations it is better to have no agreement than a bad for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) about the Iranian agreement. people and culture, which I distinguish from the regime. Many people in Iran are oppressed by it, and If the Government can reach an agreement that notwithstanding the comments of the hon. Member for leaves Iran nowhere near the threshold of holding nuclear Cheltenham it is still a long way from being a democracy. weapons, that rolls back the Iranian nuclear programme It was observed that there were 3,000 possible candidates, and that creates a framework in which peace can be although I was told that it was 678 presidential candidates achieved in the region, they deserve to be encouraged. who were disqualified by Ayatollah Khomeini as They must have high expectations and I encourage ideologically unsound. Only six were allowed to proceed— them to be rigorous and, if necessary, cynical about the one of whom is now President Rouhani. I agree with my regime. In the past it has played for time, stalled and right hon. and hon. Friends that an approach from any tried to reach a certain level. Iran must go back to the source in Iran must be engaged with, constructively, position it was in before it started its nuclear armaments and I support their way of proceeding. However, I also programme; it must dismantle it and put itself far from agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering the threshold of having nuclear weapons. that we must not look through rose-tinted spectacles at I agreed with some of what the hon. Member for President Rouhani. Islington North said, although not all of it. Human rights are human rights anywhere in the region; but Martin Horwood: Does the hon. Gentleman agree human rights in Iran are at stake. I urge my right hon. that even that flawed electoral process makes Iran rather and hon. Friends, if they get a chance, to raise the issue more democratic than Saudi Arabia, which we traditionally of human rights with Iran. The regime has an unenviable treat as a close ally? record on human rights in many respects. I have in the past taken up the issue of persecution of Christians by Mr Clappison: It is nothing like the democracy that I the Iranian regime, which included death or prison would like the Iranian people to have, and that many of sentences merely for practising their faith. We should them would want. I agree with my hon. Friend the not go into the negotiations with any illusions about the Member for Kettering that we should not see President regime. Rouhani as a completely new broom. We must not be naive. He has been part of the present regime since its 3.26 pm inception and has held high office in it. He has been involved in its nuclear negotiations in the past, and, as Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): I am pleased my hon. Friend showed in the quotation he used, has to take part in the debate under your chairmanship, stalled and used other devices to further Iran’s nuclear Mr Sheridan. intentions. This weekend we honoured the dead of two world I believe it is the resolute intention of the Iranian wars. It was the horror of the first world war that led to regime to acquire nuclear weapons. Why on earth would a huge desire for peace and disarmament in the decades it have put itself through what it has gone through for that followed. During the 1920s and 1930s there were so many years—sanctions, international opprobrium, disarmament conferences and complex negotiations leading all that has happened in the United Nations and all to impressive disarmament treaties, such as the Washington the economic problems that have been caused for Iran—if naval treaties. What happened afterwards was instructive. not because it wanted nuclear weapons come what The democracies observed the treaties. The British Navy, may? Is the international community getting it all wrong, for example, redesigned battleships such as the Nelson and have all the leaders over the years been completely and the Rodney in strange configurations, to stay within mistaken? I think not. We must accept that the Iranian the limits of the Washington naval treaties. The Germans regime is determined to have nuclear weapons. We had a much more practical approach to the matter. should not let them fall into its hands. No matter who They simply lied about the tonnage of their battle else may or may not have them, that regime has cruisers, the Scharnhorst and the Gneisenau, claiming demonstrated beyond peradventure its aggressive intent to stay within the treaty terms, but actually breaching in the region and throughout the world, through the them. 233WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 234WH
[Dr Julian Lewis] than, for example, to have the sanctions against it removed, Iran will have nuclear weapons, unless somebody We must therefore understand that, in disarmament wants to launch a military strike against it. negotiations and military confrontations, what matters In conclusion, we lived through—what was it?—70 years is less the weapons systems than the nature of the or more of confrontation with the Soviet Union, and Governments who possess them. An example of that is we survived that period of intense confrontation through our attitude to the nuclear weapons that Russia holds a policy of containment. The containment policy meant today, compared with our attitude to nuclear weapons that we neutralised the weapons systems of the power held by the Soviet Union. We were desperately concerned that could potentially attack us, and we allowed the about its nuclear arsenal, because the Soviet Union was slow development of internal political forces until that governed by a system with an aggressive ideology and a country’s system of government changed. If ever there ruthless approach to what it regarded as the inevitable were a country that ought to be subject to a policy of confrontation between communism and capitalism. Once containment, it is Iran. Sometimes I get the impression the Soviet Union collapsed and Russia turned, however that the leaders of Iran are almost being deliberately hesitantly, in a more democratic direction, we ceased to provocative, so as to incite some sort of military strike be anything like as concerned about its nuclear weapons against it in order to bolster their position with the systems. We became concerned about whether such population at home. I have no doubt that if Iran can be systems would leach out of Russia into the hands of contained for long enough, democracy will emerge in other totalitarian-inspired groups. We did not mind so the country and, as I said at the beginning, when much what arsenal Russia possessed—and continues to democracy emerges the question of what weapons systems possess—provided that it remained in safe hands and a country has or does not have becomes almost completely not extremist hands. irrelevant. That is why the comparisons between Iran’s possession of a nuclear weapon and Israel’s possession of a nuclear 3.34 pm weapon are, frankly, unfounded. As I said in an intervention Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): I on my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), whom I congratulate both on securing (Mr Hollobone) on securing this debate. May I also say the debate and on the way that he introduced it, we what a thoughtful and principled speech my hon. Friend would be concerned today about Israel’s nuclear arsenal the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) has just if Israel were governed by an extremist religious clique, made? He is a true believer in the importance of the and we would not be worried about Iran having nuclear nuclear deterrent and of the logical application of standards weapons to anything like the extent that we are if Iran that the deterrent must adhere to. were as democratic as Israel is at present. I had better declare that I have chaired the all-party Having said all that, we have to operate within the group on Iran since 2006; my co-chair is now the right boundaries of what is or is not practicable. The reality is hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). In that time, I that if Iran chooses to acquire nuclear weapons, unless have visited Iran and made a number of trips around some state or alliance of states seeks to intervene in the world to meet Governments and officials linked to some military way physically to prevent it from doing the policy on Iran. so, Iran cannot be stopped from acquiring nuclear I should start my remarks by saying, briefly, that weapons if it wants them enough. As has been pointed there is a real certainty in the debate that there is a out, Iran is signed up to the non-proliferation treaty. I nuclear weapons programme in Iran. However, that quickly conferred with my hon. Friend the Member for certainty is not shared by the United States Government. Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace) and I think that The US national intelligence estimate of 2007 said that we both agree that ultimately if Iran chose to leave the Iran had halted the programme, and in 2010 the US NPT, frankly there would be nothing that could be national intelligence estimate yet again confirmed that legitimately done to prevent it from acquiring nuclear Iran was not on the verge of breakout. These national weapons, any more than anything could have been done intelligence estimates are significant bodies of work, to prevent Pakistan from acquiring nuclear weapons in drawing on intelligence from around the world and on the way that it did. the work of different agencies, so we should not just I always refer to him as my hon. Friend the Member brush them aside. for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), although we are Secondly, a country does not just jump from 20% to a on opposite sides of the argument. In his contribution, nuclear weapon. The uranium has to be weaponised, I believe that he was trying to suggest that Israel perhaps the grade of the uranium has to be increased and the ought to give up its nuclear weapons and that that weapon must be tested, which would usually leave a might improve the situation, and he ended his speech by very significant footprint and take some time. If we take saying that he did not believe that the balance of power, those facts in conjunction with the US national intelligence or the balance of terror, was the right way to keep the estimate—and, indeed, with some of the reports from peace in the middle east. I am afraid that I disagree with the International Atomic Energy Agency—we see that him on both counts. I think that Israel giving up its there is not such an urgency. Iran is not suddenly going nuclear weapons—and Israel is not party to the NPT— to produce a nuclear weapon. In addition, there is the would actually encourage other countries to commit supreme leader’s fatwa that nuclear weapons are un-Islamic. aggression against it. I believe, however, that the possibility I have visited Iran and if anyone wants to understand of the balance of terror may, in the end, come to be our the country they have to understand its supreme leader. only resource against Iran, because—as I said before When the supreme leader says that about nuclear weapons, —if Iran is determined to have nuclear weapons and if he means it. It is absolutely imperative that people it is more important to Iran to have nuclear weapons follow that ruling. 235WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 236WH
That does not mean that there are not people in Iran 1994 with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr who want a nuclear weapon; I suspect that there are Dodds), who would have been appalled by the people I plenty of people there who wish to have one, for the had to meet in the course of trying to make peace with purposes of deterrence. If a sane-minded Iranian who our enemy. We do not necessarily just write people off. represented New Forest East was living in downtown The history of Iran, the great game, the fact that the Tehran, I suspect that he would believe in the principle BBC World Service was used in 1953 to trigger the coup of deterrence, given that his neighbours are Pakistan, against Iran’s only democratic prime minister—if we Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. Those are sworn enemies were Iranian, we might be a bit suspicious of western of Iran, ideologically different and religiously opposed— media, although now I think that would be wrong. there are all sorts of issues that we could say we faced in Then there was the grand bargain offered up in 2003, the cold war in the late 1940s. Those differences are which was the demilitarisation of Hezbollah, the offer often brought home to Iran by the terrorist attacks to suspend enrichment of uranium and even a movement across its border. We should certainly remember that to a Saudi recognition of Israel, which was dismissed the supreme leader—for now—has made that ruling, out of hand by the United States Administration. and that it is not something to sniff at. We are in the business, with this peace process and I totally agree that the nature of the regime goes hand the process at Geneva, of trying to build trust. We in hand with the issue of nuclear weapons. Obviously, cannot indulge in rhetoric and history to rule that out. Iran’s record on human rights is abhorrent. It has We have to give it a chance. We are not stupid and we engaged in the persecution of the Baha’is, the suppression have all been here before. No one has rose-tinted spectacles of women’s rights and the persecution of lawyers and of when it comes to dealing with Iran; it is a straw man people who lead strikes, including bus drivers who lead argument to say that we do. We need to work on that strikes and have their rights under the constitution and the Government are engaging. I am confident that denied. It is very important that we do something to put we will get there, if we just give it a chance. pressure on Iran about those issues and ensure that they are resolved. 3.40 pm Let us remember that the only democracy in the whole region, other than Israel, is Iran. Iran’s democracy Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): First, I may not be one that we think perfect, but it is a congratulate the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr democracy that operates at all sorts of levels—the guardian Hollobone) on securing this debate. There have been council, local councils and the mayor of Tehran are all five speeches in the debate, which is topical because of elected. Iran has an active democracy. There is no the past week’s events in Geneva. My hon. Friend the democracy in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Syria or Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn)—although others of our allies to whom we sell weapons systems we disagree on nuclear weapons, I respect his position— around the world. made a thoughtful speech that put the present situation There is a democracy and a constitution in Iran. One in its historical context. The hon. Member for Wyre and of the reasons for the green movement in 2009 was the Preston North (Mr Wallace) recognised that much of desire among the Iranian people to follow the rule of the suspicion in Iran is down to the history that our law. If someone reads the Iranian constitution, they will country and others have in the region. That is important see it is quite good, even though it was authored by a when we are looking at a possible solution to nuclear Belgian. One of the reasons for the green movement weapons in the ongoing talks. was the demand that the denial of rights to people The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) should stop. Label someone a “terrorist” or a “Zionist rightly raised the possibility of proliferation throughout spy” and they do not have those rights. Well, we live in a the region. He mentioned Saudi Arabia and other nations democracy that labels someone a “terrorist” and they that might wish to acquire nuclear weapons if the are then locked up for 90 days, without the same rights Iranians were to develop their capability. I agree with that they would have if they were labelled a “criminal”. much of what the hon. Member for New Forest East Iran is certainly more extreme, but let us not forget that (Dr Lewis) said on nuclear deterrents vis-à-vis this the temptation to deny people their rights for all sorts of country, but I do not agree that if Iran developed a reasons is not just confined to Iran. nuclear weapons capability, it would somehow offer Then we talk about security guarantees. It is a rough a balance of terror with Israel. The clear way forward is neighbourhood down there—a very rough neighbourhood, to stop Iran developing that capability in the first place. with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. No one has mentioned The hon. Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) the recent discovery that in Saudi Arabia there is a warned the Government not to look at this process ballistic missile launch-pad facility with two aiming through rose-tinted spectacles, and I agree. No one marks: one to Tel Aviv and one to Tehran. It is a rough should look at the history or the actions of the present neighbourhood and I think that if I were there, I, too, regime in Iran and think that we are dealing with people might like to look out for myself. who have not committed atrocities on their own people At the heart of all this is trust, rhetoric and history. or have not exported terror to other parts of the middle Let us not forget that Iranians distrust the west as much east. When I was a Minister in the Ministry of Defence, as we distrust Iran. That is at the heart of this process. I was aware of the involvement of Iran in attacks on our Remember that we distrusted Gorbachev, but we did troops in southern Iraq and its support for insurgents not say that because he was from the Soviet regime—the against those forces. regime that was pulling people’s toenails out and torturing We on the Opposition Benches see Iran as a threat—if them—we could not do business with him and we could it acquires nuclear weapons—not only to security in the not find a solution. We did not write him off. I was middle east, but to global security. A nuclear-armed involved with the peace process in Northern Ireland in Iran would not only change the balance of power 237WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 238WH
[Mr Kevan Jones] 3.47 pm within the region, but, as the hon. Member for Cheltenham The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth argued, it would also lead to other nations wishing to Office (Hugh Robertson): I congratulate my hon. Friend acquire a nuclear capability. Many of those nations the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) on securing have the funds to do that. this debate at such an important moment in the negotiations on the Iranian nuclear issue. I also congratulate the If Iran gained a nuclear capability, that would be a other hon. Members who have spoken this afternoon. I blow to the United Nations goal of a nuclear-free will address the points raised in their various contributions. middle east. It would also be a step away and against To set the scene, it is worth saying three things. First, the goal that we all share of ensuring that new countries Iran has shown over the course of recent months that it do not acquire nuclear weapons. We in the UK and on is genuinely taking a new approach to negotiations. We the Opposition Benches—well, some of us, anyway—are need fully to test that and explore the opportunity—I committed to the retention of our nuclear deterrent, go no further than that at this stage—for a deal. We but it is important that we encourage others and ourselves believe there may well be a deal on the table that would to reduce our nuclear weapon stockpiles. Allowing the give us meaningful assurance on our immediate proliferation Iranians to have a nuclear weapons capability would be concerns and create the space for a comprehensive a severe blow to that non-proliferation position, which I solution. think all parties in this country would want to protect. Secondly, let me absolutely clear: there is no question The Opposition agree with the Government’s twin-track of us seeing this issue through rose-tinted spectacles. approach to Iran, with the imposition of strict sanctions We approach this negotiation with our eyes wide open. and the encouragement through diplomatic channels to We are fully aware of Iran’s history of concealment and ensure that we can get an agreement that ensures that its defiance of its international obligations. We will Iran does not acquire a nuclear capability. Much has continue to be firm in our approach to Iran on that and been said this afternoon about the election of President other issues. Thirdly—this addresses a point raised by Rouhani. I accept the points that hon. Members have the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) raised about him and some of the atrocities that have and others—despite the fact that progress on nuclear been carried out by the Iranian regime. He stood on a talks remains possible, we are not blind to Iran’s nefarious platform of reform, and the sanctions imposed by the activities in its immediate region and beyond, or its international community on Iran are having an effect terrible human rights record. on the Iranian community and the Iranian people. It is I hope my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering will important that we continue our diplomatic efforts. take some comfort from what I have just said. He was worried about the possibility of the talks becoming a My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North space in which the Iranians could continue to enrich. discussed the UK’s diplomatic relations with Iran. I The obvious point is that, without the talks, Iran will welcome the appointment of the chargés d’affaires and continue to enrich anyway, so we might as well give the hopefully we will see the embassy in Tehran opening to talks a chance. I cannot go into the detail of the commence that dialogue in the not-too-distant future. negotiations and the terms around which they revolve, That dialogue will be so important in steering the but clearly the basis of the deal is that Iran will take Iranians away from developing nuclear weapons and in concrete and verifiable action to address the international raising some of the points about human rights and their community’s concerns about its nuclear programme, support for terrorist activities—both in the region and and the E3 plus 3 may consider some measure of more widely—that have rightly been mentioned. sanctions relief to offer in return. There will not be a deal unless Iran ceases its enrichment programme. This weekend’s talks were positive. It is a disappointment to us all that the next step has not been taken, but, The hon. Member for Islington North made the overall, we are moving in the right direction and the obvious point that human rights in Iran remain in a Iranians are taking a more positive tone and stance. I terrible state, and we agree with him. The negotiations say to hon. Members, including the hon. Member for in Geneva are purely about the nuclear file, and the Kettering, that there are two options. One is to allow hope is that the twin-track approach of exchanging the Iranians to develop a nuclear capacity and take non-resident charges d’affaires, and so on, will create some type of military action against them. The other is preconditions that enable progress to be made in other to have talks, to give Iran a chance to disarm and to areas. prevent it from acquiring nuclear weapons. Given what The hon. Gentleman asked the Foreign Secretary the hon. Member for Wyre and Preston North said, that yesterday about the middle east weapons of mass would be the preferred option. destruction-free zone, for which we argued during the non-proliferation treaty review in 2010. There has been Doing nothing is not an option. The Opposition a small amount of progress on that recently, and we support the continuation of strong and tough sanctions hope to be in a position to make an announcement in while, as the hon. Member for Hertsmere said, not the near future. looking at Iran through rose-tinted spectacles. We have to recognise that the negotiations on ensuring that the The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) Iranians give up their capacity to develop nuclear weapons made three clear points. The first was on the international will be tough and hard. I wish the Government and our relations dynamic. Tempting though it is, it is not my international partners well in arriving at that international position to comment on Saudi relations with the United settlement. It will make not only the middle east, but States. Perhaps it would be helpful if he considered that the world, a safer place. in the context of Iran’s history of negative involvement across the Gulf. There are many states beyond ours that 239WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme12 NOVEMBER 2013 Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 240WH are extremely suspicious of Iranian activities, and justifiably complex. They covered every aspect of Iran’s extensive so. There is concern across the wider Gulf—the concern nuclear programme, and the Iranian negotiators were, in Israel is often mentioned—about many of the worries as has been reported and as the Foreign Secretary raised this afternoon. We already keep all our key allies mentioned yesterday, tough but constructive. The focus in the Gulf fully briefed on where we are. of the negotiations was to reach agreement on a first I hope I have answered the hon. Gentleman’s question step—this was the point raised by my hon. Friend the on the nuclear-free zone in the middle east. He mentioned Member for New Forest East—that would create confidence disarmament here in the United Kingdom, and I can do and space to negotiate a comprehensive settlement that no better than repeat the comments of the hon. Member resolves the Iranian nuclear issue. for North Durham (Mr Jones) by saying that we have a Talks ended without that interim agreement because slightly different view on that. some key differences remained between the parties. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere Disappointing though that was on one level, it might (Mr Clappison) talked about our approach to the talks, comfort people to know that we are not running into and I hope I have reassured him on that. The phrase the talks with rose-tinted spectacles. The negotiations “rose-tinted spectacles” has come up on a number of are tough and have a long history, but the gaps are occasions this afternoon, and there are no rose-tinted narrowing. At the conclusion of the weekend, the E3 spectacles in the Geneva talks. Everyone knows exactly plus 3 Foreign Ministers presented a united position, what is involved, the difficulties of what we are dealing which we believe gives us a very strong foundation for with and the backdrop against which we are trying to the next round of talks on 20 November. do this. On the other hand—one only has to talk to the Provided the conditions can be met, the Government Foreign Secretary, who has met the regime on a number are in favour of reaching an interim agreement. As the of occasions in New York and Geneva, to get a feel for Foreign Secretary told the House yesterday, the agreement this—there is a new feel to the talks. It is important that being discussed would have real benefits for global we test that to see what can be achieved. If we are able security, but it needs to be detailed, clear and concrete. to get over the line, I doubt there is anyone anywhere in The agreement also needs to assure all countries that this Chamber who would not agree that that is a good the threat of nuclear proliferation in Iran is being thing. The question is, to test Iran’s resolve and to see addressed and, therefore, it is crucial that the agreement what is achievable, but we must do so with our eyes cover all aspects of Iran’s nuclear programme. We believe wide open. that such a deal is on the table and is within reach. My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East Sanctions have undoubtedly played an indispensable (Dr Lewis) made a good and thoughtful speech, as he part in creating the new opening. Sanctions are putting always does, and he is absolutely right that Iran ought the Iranian leadership and the Iranian economy under to be the subject of a system of containment. In a sense, serious pressure. We think that the sanctions are costing of course, that is what an interim deal before a final deal the Iranian economy at least $4 billion a month or will seek to achieve, and he is right to make that point. $48 billion a year. There is no question of our relaxing the sanctions pressure before we have taken action to My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre and Preston address the proliferation concerns. North (Mr Wallace), the co-chair of the all-party group on Iran, talked about the importance of trust, It is worth noting in passing that, while the talks are which is a key component that he compared to Northern going on—this goes to the centre of what my hon. Ireland. I remember someone saying to me some Friend the Member for Kettering said in his opening years ago that, in relation to Northern Ireland, the remarks—the Iranian nuclear programme continues to Government of the day were in about the right place if advance. The most recent International Atomic Energy everyone was marginally unhappy with them. I suspect Agency report of 28 August noted that Iran’s stockpile that might be a principle that applies here, too. He is of near-20% enriched uranium continues to grow. Iran absolutely right about the importance of gaining trust. has installed more than 1,000 advanced centrifuges, The hope is that, if trust builds during the negotiations, which are capable of enriching at a significantly faster it could translate into other affairs. He has the Government’s rate, and there is also the heavy water research reactor approach in a nutshell—it is important to take the at Arak. All that represents a breach of the United opportunity seriously but to be realistic about what can Nations Security Council and IAEA board resolutions be achieved. and shows why, in the interest of international security, we want the talks to succeed. Finally, I thank the hon. Member for North Durham for supporting the process. I was struck in the Chamber Because of the time, I will finish by saying that this yesterday by the level of support from Opposition afternoon’s debate has revolved around two dynamics. Members, including the right hon. Member for There is a new opportunity to do something, and I Blackburn (Mr Straw) and others who dealt with the think everyone in the Chamber would agree that, if that issue in the past and know what is involved. I am opportunity exists, we should take it. Rest assured that grateful for the continued support of the hon. Member we are going into the talks with our eyes wide open. We for North Durham. know what we are dealing with. I do not think anyone is in any doubt that a deal will be difficult to achieve, but I do not know whether there is anything that Members such a deal would be in the interest of the international feel I have not addressed, but I will provide a brief community. update on where we are. As most people know, the Foreign Secretary returned Mr Wallace: On a point of order, Mr Sheridan. on Sunday from the E3 plus 3 negotiations in Geneva, Throughout the debate my seat has been referred to as which were the third round of talks since President Lancaster and Wyre Valley, Lancaster and Wyre or Rouhani’s election in June. The talks were detailed and Wyre and Preston North. Given that my hon. Friend 241WH Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme 12 NOVEMBER 2013 242WH
[Mr Wallace] Sittingbourne and Sheppey Road Infrastructure the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) is sitting behind me, I want to correct the record. Before the boundary changes, I was the Member 3.59 pm of Parliament for Lancaster and Wyre, but I am now Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): the Member of Parliament for Wyre and Preston North. It is a delight, Mr Sheridan, to serve under your chairmanship. Two years ago, I took part in a general Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): I am sure Hansard will Westminster Hall debate and used it not only to highlight have recorded the hon. Gentleman’s constituency correctly. some of the positive business developments that were taking place in my constituency, but to set out a number of problems with the local roads that needed to be solved if we were to attract even more investment to the area. Those problems have not gone away, and in some cases have got worse. I want to use my time today to repeat some of my concerns about the road infrastructure in my constituency. In many ways, the problem has been brought about by the success of business in our area, which is ironic because the other side of the same coin is that the very same problem could hold back future investment. Sheppey has a major port that is used for the import and export of thousands of cars every year, and we have the largest prison population in the whole country. Eurolink in north Sittingbourne will, when its current expansion plans are realised, be the largest industrial and business park in the south-east. Morrison’s regional distribution centre is also situated in Sittingbourne, and next door is the largest paper mill in the United Kingdom. The thriving Kent science park is in south Sittingbourne and is at the cutting edge of life sciences. Those success stories generate valuable employment, but also an increasing amount of traffic that is threatening to overwhelm our local roads. When I listen to BBC Radio Kent in the mornings to hear what traffic problems I will face on my drive into London, the same motorways are almost always mentioned: the M25, the M20, and the M2, as well as the Dartford crossing. On the A roads, there is occasionally a problem on the A2, the A20 and the A21, but one Kent road is mentioned every morning without fail: the A249, which happens to be the main road into Sittingbourne and Sheppey from the M2. Anyone who witnessed the horrendous multi-car pile-up on the Sheppey bridge a few weeks back will appreciate the number of vehicles that use the A249 every day. Not only is it the only road off the Isle of Sheppey, it is also the road used by the thousands of people who commute from Sittingbourne. Traffic from the Eurolink industrial park, the Morrison’s regional warehouse and the paper mill also feeds on to the A249. That has created at least two major pinch points: one at the roundabout at the junction between the A249 and the northern relief road—I will come to that project in a moment—and the other at the roundabout where the A249 meets junction 5 of the M2. The latter is a particular problem because the congestion created at the roundabout affects not only the slip roads from the M2, but local roads. The Kent science park also creates congestion on local roads in south Sittingbourne, which is another problem that needs to be resolved. The owners of the park, with Swale borough council and Kent county council, have plans for a link from the M2 at what would become junction 5A, but they have been stymied by current Highways Agency restrictions on spur roads from motorways. I wrote to the Minister’s predecessor about the problem and received an assurance that his 243WH Sittingbourne and Sheppey Road 12 NOVEMBER 2013 Sittingbourne and Sheppey Road 244WH Infrastructure Infrastructure Department was reviewing that restriction. Is there any in his constituency. I also congratulate him on the update on that? I am keen to see that spur built because excellent progress he is making with his “Movember” not only would it help to relieve congestion on a number moustache. of roads in south Sittingbourne; it could form part of I know that the subject is of great importance to him what we hope will eventually become the southern relief and his constituents, including businesses in the area, road. and he spoke eloquently about that. I had the opportunity That leads me back to the northern relief road, which to have a session with my officials to update myself on links the A249 to both Eurolink and Great Easthall, the current situation and to hear some of the history of which is a housing development north of the A2. The developments in this important area. problem is that the northern relief road has never been Road transport has always been important to the completed, so it is not much of a relief to anyone. area. From the Roman road, Watling street, which goes Obviously, local businesses on Eurolink and the residents through the constituency to the less evocatively named of Great Easthall want the final link to be built as soon Sittingbourne northern relief road, which opened in as possible, but many other people feel that finishing the December 2011, roads have always been important to northern relief road without first building a southern the local economy. My hon. Friend highlighted the relief road would be a mistake because it would simply congestion on the major roads in the area, and he will increase congestion on the A2 and the number of vehicles know that this Government recognise the issues and the using rural roads in villages such as Bapchild, Bredgar, importance of transport infrastructure to support the Rodmersham and Tunstall as rat runs to the M20. economy. He also knows that we are looking at easing I have some sympathy with the latter view, which is congestion at the Dartford crossing through a new one reason why I have long held the view that a southern lower Thames crossing to deliver additional capacity. relief road is critical to Sittingbourne’s long-term future. We consulted on options earlier in the year and will Not only would it open the way to completion of the make an announcement later in the autumn. northern relief road, while protecting the southern villages; We have already announced increased levels of it would help to reduce congestion on both the A2 and Government funding to deliver improvements around the A249. the trunk road network, targeted at supporting economic Another pinch point on the A249 is where it joins the growth. Our commitment to delivering a step change in A250 on the Isle of Sheppey. Until it hits that junction, future investment in transport infrastructure was made the A249 is a dual carriageway, but thereafter it goes clear by the Chancellor in his statement on 26 June into a single lane all the way to Sheerness. That part of when he announced the conclusions of the Government’s the A249 is also the main road into Sheerness docks and 2013 spending review. The Treasury’s Command Paper, we desperately need the dual carriageway to be extended “Investing in Britain’s future”, set out that the Government at least as far as the eastern boundary of the docks to will invest allow easier access. That would allow a major expansion “over £28 billion in enhancements and maintenance of national of the docks, thereby creating additional employment and local roads”. in one of the most socially deprived parts of my That includes £10.7 billion for major national road constituency. projects and £4.9 billion for local major projects. More than £12 billion has been allocated for maintenance, There is also a problem on Sheppey with the newly with nearly £6 billion allocated for repairs to local roads created A2500, which is the main road link between the and £6 billion for maintenance of strategic roads, including A249 and the eastern part of Sheppey. The A2500 feeds resurfacing 80% of that network. into Minster, which is the largest community on Sheppey and has seen the largest expansion of housing. Sadly, On future investment planning, my hon. Friend will the junction at the A2500 and Barton Hill drive, which know that the Highways Agency is conducting its route- is the main route into Minster, is simply not fit for based strategy process, which is involving local stakeholders purpose and is seriously congested daily, all year round. in the consideration of future priorities. It may be The A2500 is also the main road to the three prisons on useful if I say a little more about the approach we are Sheppey, and ironically also feeds the main holiday taking, as that is the mechanism by which we will look camps on the island, so the congestion increases still at issues on roads such as the M2 and the A249—which, further during the summer. as we have heard, feature so regularly on local radio congestion reports—between Sittingbourne and Sheppey. The Minister has kindly agreed to come to my In our response in May 2012 to the recommendations constituency next year to open a new logistics hub in Alan Cook’s report, “A fresh start for the Strategic that, ironically, is being built alongside the A249 and road network”, we agreed to develop a programme of will no doubt add to the current traffic problems at the route-based strategies to inform the identification of Morrison’s roundabout. I wonder whether he would future transport investments for the strategic road network. agree to meet representatives from Swale borough council, Route-based strategies will provide a smarter approach and my local business community on the same day to to investment planning across the network and see hear at first hand their concerns about our local road greater collaboration with local stakeholders to determine infrastructure. the nature, need and timing of future investment that might be required on the network. We will produce a uniform set of strategies for the entire network, including 4.7 pm the M2, the A249 and the M20, as part of the “Kent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport corridor to M25” route-based strategy. (Mr Robert Goodwill): I congratulate my hon. Friend The Highways Agency has recently completed a series the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Gordon of local engagement events to help identify the performance Henderson) on securing this debate on road infrastructure issues on those routes and the future challenges. I 245WH Sittingbourne and Sheppey Road 12 NOVEMBER 2013 Sittingbourne and Sheppey Road 246WH Infrastructure Infrastructure [Mr Robert Goodwill] improvement projects, such as road safety schemes, bus priority, cycling infrastructure and real-time information. welcome the enthusiasm with which stakeholders in That funding allows local authorities to ensure that Kent, including those in my hon. Friend’s constituency, their transport networks are kept in good condition. It have participated in the progress so far. The Highways enables them to improve road safety and to stimulate Agency and the Department will use the evidence to local economies and growth by reducing congestion in prioritise and take forward a programme of work to their local communities. Between 2010-11 and 2014-15, identify indicative solutions that will cover operations, Kent county council will have received £39.4 million maintenance and, if appropriate, potential road through that funding route, and the funding is set to improvement schemes. That will then be used to inform total some £2.75 billion across England between 2015-16 investment plans beyond 2015. and 2020-21. The route-based strategies therefore provide an Highways maintenance block funding is also given to opportunity for stakeholders to provide evidence about local transport authorities in England outside London problems on the A249 trunk road or the M2, so that the to maintain their highway networks, including carriageways, need for improvements can be considered, and I will pavements, structures and so forth. The funding allows certainly take my hon. Friend’s speech as part of that local authorities to ensure that their highway networks process. In addition, the Highways Agency continues are kept in good condition. It enables them to improve routinely to engage with the planning system. That road safety and to stimulate local economies and growth helps to ensure that improvements to the strategic road by reducing damage to vehicles and goods. Between network are identified and delivered where they are 2010-11 and 2014-15, Kent county council will have required to mitigate the traffic impacts of local plans received £105.8 million for highways maintenance, and and planning applications. the recent 2013 spending round commits to providing My hon. Friend, in his support for the new junction 5A just less than £6 billion to local highway authorities on the M2, also raised an issue of policy relating to new over the six-year period between 2015-16 and 2020-21. junctions on motorways. In that regard, the Department Indeed, before the 2010 election, when I was in the has recently published new policy guidance on the way shadow Transport role, I visited Kent county council to in which the Highways Agency will engage with see some of the innovative technology it was using to communities and the development industry to deliver identify how best to use that money, and particularly sustainable development and economic growth, while, the way it addressed the problem of potholes. That at the same time, safeguarding the primary function funding equates to £976 million a year and highlights and purpose of the strategic road network. the Government’s commitment to the country’s most That guidance is entitled “The Strategic Road Network valuable public asset and to ensuring that our local and the Delivery of Sustainable Development”, and it highways are fit for purpose. provides that, where appropriate, proposals for the creation In addition to that funding, the Government have of new junctions or direct means of access to motorways recently announced plans to create a local growth fund may be identified and developed at the plan-making from 2015-16 onwards. That fund, among other things, stage in circumstances where it can be established that will allow localities to prioritise infrastructure schemes such new infrastructure is essential for the delivery of that are deemed essential for economic growth. Those the strategic planned growth. I understand that Swale schemes are expected to include major road improvements borough council may be bringing forward proposals for on the local road network, such as the type of relief the expansion of the Kent science park as part of its road my hon. Friend referred to. That LGF pot will be plan-making process, although it is not yet determined worth at least £2 billion a year until 2021. The fund will whether that development constitutes strategic planned be devolved to local enterprise partnerships across England, growth, or whether a new junction with the M2 is and Kent is part of the South East local enterprise essential for the delivery of that growth. partnership. It is for the South East LEP to identify its The Highways Agency recently met with Swale borough priority schemes for funding as part of its strategic council, Kent county council and the operators of the economic plan. I am sure my hon. Friend will want to Kent science park regarding those matters, and discussions make the same representations he has made today to his are ongoing. Decisions on whether a new junction can local LEP to ensure that it understands the importance be accepted in policy terms will be taken in due course, and priorities of the schemes in his constituency, not and I will take a personal interest in that decision-making least in connection with the port and the science park. process. Apart from the policy deliberations, consideration The LEPs have already had some LGF funding allocated also needs to be given to the technical hurdles in providing to them by formula to enable them to bring forward a junction that is safe and affordable and does not plans for local major transport projects. The confirmed increase congestion on the strategic road network. allocation for the South East LEP is £65.9 million for It is widely recognised that the condition and efficiency the four-year period from 2015-16 to 2018-19 inclusive. of the local road networks is also essential for economic In addition, the South East LEP will have the opportunity growth. Nearly all journeys will start or finish on those to bid for a lot more than that next year when submitting networks, which are relied on by local residents and its strategic economic plan to Government in March 2014. businesses alike. Maintenance and management of the The Government recognise the importance of an networks is the responsibility of the local transport effective transport infrastructure to the growth of the authority. In the case of Sittingbourne and Sheppey, economy, and there is a real commitment to enhancing that is Kent county council. our transport networks. More than half the £12 billion Local road funding, in the guise of integrated that the Chancellor has committed to the local growth transport block funding, is available to local transport fund over the six years from 2015-16 onwards is coming authorities in England outside London for small transport from transport budgets. That amounts to £1.1 billion in 247WH Sittingbourne and Sheppey Road 12 NOVEMBER 2013 248WH Infrastructure 2015-16 and a further £1 billion a year for each of the Glenanne Gang Murders following five years for long-term planning of priority transport infrastructure. The growth deals currently being negotiated between the LEPs and Government 4.28 pm will enable access to that funding. It is a competitive Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): It is a pleasure to process, and the areas that present the most compelling speak under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan, even if and robust evidence-based arguments for growth strategies the subject matter is sombre. will be the most successful in accessing that finance. A recently published book by Anne Cadwallader, We see the growth deal process as critical in ensuring “Lethal Allies: British Collusion in Ireland”, is the that essential transport projects are put forward and result of work by the Pat Finucane Centre and work funded. I know that Kent county council and local previously conducted by members of the Historical businesses are playing an active role in the South East Enquiries Team in investigating a number of historical LEP to ensure that the process delivers necessary murders in Northern Ireland. The reports by the infrastructure in the LEP area. Historical Enquiries Team, of course, were made available I again congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for to families, but were not published. That is the basis on Sittingbourne and Sheppey on securing the debate. It which it has worked. The reports on 10 murders were reminds us of the importance of an effective transport made available to the Pat Finucane Centre. network to the economy. I have been clear that this The Pat Finucane Centre, through Anne Cadwallader, Government are committed to, and have set out plans has worked painstakingly to spell out the narrative that for, large-scale investments to improve both the local emerges from those 10 reports by the HET, but also to and strategic road networks. Indeed, the money we are build on the work of document recovery and evidential putting into roads during the next 15 years is equivalent pursuit, which has taken the Pat Finucane centre to the to the entire cost of the High Speed 2 project, including National Archives in Kew. Although the issues in the the rolling stock. book “Lethal Allies” pose fundamental questions about Through the funding streams set out in the spending the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the Northern Ireland round, and through the route-based strategies and strategic Office and armed groups, we should not ignore the fact economic strategies, processes are in place to identify that it also spells out sharp questions about the Ministry future transport needs, but also to consider the range of of Defence—not least, but not only, in respect of its possible solutions. This morning I was in Birmingham, oversight of the Ulster Defence Regiment in those years. looking at some of the managed motorway schemes—or The book dwells on the deadly, devastating work of smart motorways, as we now call them—which show what was called the Glenanne gang. It was more of a how we are already managing to deliver better transport syndrome than a fixed gang, because, as the book solutions in all parts of the country, including the points out, what was initially thought of as a gang north, the west midlands, the east midlands and, of operating in what was called the “triangle of death” or course, the south-east. “murder triangle”, ended up being a network, able to It will be important for future investment proposals source members in the UDR or serving in the RUC— to be clearly supported by local stakeholders, and for particularly in the part-time reserve—at the time of its clear consensus to exist on what is required. Ultimately, involvement in the paramilitary activities. It was also any future investment proposals need to demonstrate a able to source a lot of its weaponry in raids in UDR strong business case and the delivery of both transport armouries, one of which was a joint UDR-Territorial and wider economic benefits. In that way, we can place and Army Volunteer Reserve armoury. The documentary ourselves in a strong position to make the best use of evidence shows that even the MOD suspected that the the funds available and establish a sound base for the raids involved large degrees of collusion. future development of an effective transport system I shall take a selective skimming of the evidence, but I that can contribute to a low-carbon economy. hope that it is relevant. A letter in July 1972 from Army I very much look forward to visiting my hon. Friend’s headquarters Northern Ireland, from the civil adviser constituency and seeing the situation at first hand next to the general officer commanding, acknowledges an year, when I plan to visit the opening of one of his local earlier letter asking about UDR involvement in the logistics companies. I hope that at the same time, as he UDA. The letter, to Lieutenant-Colonel J.L. Powell in suggested, there will be an opportunity to meet the Adjutant General Secretariat at the Minister of representatives of Kent county council, the local district Defence main building in Whitehall, also says, among council and the local enterprise partnership, as they will other things: have as key a role as Members of Parliament and other “The UDR has to draw a line somewhere between hard-line stakeholders in determining the priorities for transport Protestants who can safely be contained in the UDR, and those investment in the south-east and ensuring that the taxpayers’ who cannot. The UDA is not an illegal organisation, and membership money we are investing in this way is spent wisely, and of the UDA is not an offence under the military laws; it is also a in the place where we get the most bang for our buck. large organisation not all of whose members can be regarded as dangerous extremists. One important (but unspoken) function of the UDR is to channel into a constructive and disciplined direction 4.22 pm Protestant energies which might otherwise become disruptive. For Sitting suspended. these reasons it is felt that it would be counter-productive to discharge a UDR member solely on the grounds that he was a member of the UDA.” The letter later says: “Similarly, it is not formally laid down that where an applicant to join the UDR is found to be a member of the UDA, his application must automatically be rejected.” 249WH Glenanne Gang Murders12 NOVEMBER 2013 Glenanne Gang Murders 250WH
[Mark Durkan] membership, but at no point does anybody make it their business to make it a serious matter and intelligence It goes on: target. “I am sure that this moderate line towards UDA supporters is That document on subversion in the UDR was circulated the right one in view of the role of the UDA as a safety valve. In in Government and there were a number of replies from my opinion it would be politically unwise to dismiss a member of a number of people. We will be able to present all the the UDA from the UDR unless he had committed a military documents at a later date—hopefully, not too much offence; the dismissal of a member of the UDR on lesser grounds later—to the Minister and the MOD, if it is too much to could well lead to wide-spread morale problems particularly in certain areas.” expect the Minister to reply to all the information today. We might say that it is depressing and regrettable, Tellingly for MPs, it goes on to say: but those memos and letters in response to that document “I recognise the reasons why Ministers might wish to be able to confirm the accuracy of the report. There was no real say unequivocally, in reply to Parliamentary Questions, that dispute about its assessment. membership of the UDA is not compatible with membership of the UDR and that we have no evidence that any UDR member is The document tried to indicate that the security actively associated with the UDA. But I fear it would be wrong to vetting process had improved, so some reliance might offer categorical assurances on either point, and indeed it might be put on it. It is interesting to note that the Army be very damaging politically if Ministers were to make a public director of security said, in response to that suggestion statement which implied that the UDA was an outlawed organisation.” in a memo dated 20 August 1973: That, Mr Sheridan, tells us that the mentality was more “I would make the general point first that the process is in fact about sensitivity to the reputation of the UDA than to only a screening procedure and has no relationship to normal the integrity of the UDR as part of the security forces. security vetting carried out on people who require to have access to classified information.” As we go through the various documents from the In a subsequent paragraph in the same letter, he says: MOD in 1973, we see that it casually and frequently “In order to counter doubts expressed by some MPs about the refers to collusion in its internal documents when describing impartiality of RUC records, the check was extended to include overlapping membership between the UDA and UDR. the interview of at least one character referee ‘to establish that an There is also evidence from 1973 of the Irish Government, applicant is of good character, is not an active supporter of any on the basis of representations and complaints from the organization at one or other extreme of the political spectrum SDLP and many other people with pastoral and other and is likely to act in the best interests of the people of Northern community interests, registering strong concerns with Ireland as a whole.’” the British Government about what was going on in In the next paragraph, he says: relation to some members of the UDR, their overlapping “Although the injection of the interview has probably been membership of the UDA and the seepage of weapons. successful as part of the PR exercise involved on the checks, it can have had little effect on improving the value of the screening. The I shall not dwell on the issue here, because you, applicant nominates the referee, who is almost certain to be Mr Sheridan, might rule that that was about the Foreign influenced in his favour and can add little to the security knowledge Office side, but we have a letter from the British Government of the applicant.” that basically dismisses the clear concerns of the Irish We have a clear picture: the Ministry of Defence knew Government in early 1973 as mere electoral gimmicks. the concerns but was not itself concerned, and did A series of internal Army and Ministry of Defence nothing to stem members’ involvement in the UDA or reports in 1973 show the ongoing loss of weapons from the weapons leakage that went with it. UDR armouries—and, in some cases, the homes of Weapons leakage happened at numerous levels. The UDR members. Those reports point to suspicions of most significant raid occurred at the Lurgan UDR and and concerns about collusion. A significant MOD report Territorial Army Voluntary Reserve base in October in August 1973, called “Subversion in the UDR”, said: 1972; they raided so much that they could not carry it “Since the beginning of the current campaign the best single all away. There was another raid exactly a year later, on source of weapons (and the only significant source of modern 23 October 1973, on the Fort Seagoe UDR base, and weapons) for Protestant extremist groups has been the UDR.” another major arms raid at the Magherafelt UDR base It then sets out the details of significant arms losses for in 1975. All of them were conducted similarly, and the 1972-73. I do not wish to go through all the figures for lack of proactive security in place showed that no the self-loading rifles, sub-machine guns and pistols lessons were learned. that were lost or the much smaller number that were What then happened to those weapons? It was not recovered. just an embarrassing lapse of security; they were then used by an absolutely ruthless killer gang network. One That internal British Government report on subversion Sterling submachine gun was stolen from the Glenanne in the UDR indicated that a significant proportion, UDR base before the other raids to which I referred. It perhaps 5% to 15%, of UDR soldiers would also have was stolen some time between 20 and 21 May 1971, as been members of the UDA, the Ulster Vanguard Service the Historical Enquiries Team found. Corps, the Orange Volunteers or the UVP.Another part of that report confirms that: The HET was unable to find any documentation explaining the circumstances of the theft, nor could it “The discovery of members of para-military or extremist find any evidence that any investigation had taken organisations in the UDR is not, and has not been, a major place. The whereabouts and use of the weapon during intelligence target.” the four-year period between May 1971 and 1 September There we have wilful negligence—people recognise that 1975 are unknown. It did not feature in any ballistics there is a risk, they see that there has been a pattern of report before the murder of Denis Mullen. After that, it collusion, with arms being removed into the clutches of was used to kill 10 other people over a period of loyalist paramilitaries, and they know there is overlapping 11 months. 251WH Glenanne Gang Murders12 NOVEMBER 2013 Glenanne Gang Murders 252WH
On 1 September 1975, a Sterling submachine gun— Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): Does UF57, and then a long serial number—was used to kill my hon. Friend agree that substantive amounts of key Denis Mullen, a Social Democratic and Labour party information and British Army records are stored in the branch secretary who had just won promotion to become National Archives at Kew that could help bring justice the first Catholic ambulance controller at the new South to some of the victims and survivors? Tyrone hospital in Dungannon. Gunmen threw a clod of mud through a window of his home at Collegeland. Mark Durkan: I thank my hon. Friend for that point, He went to the front door to investigate, and they which relates not only to Kew, but to other locations as opened fire, shooting him 27 times at close range. His well. Sadly, our hon. Friend the Member for South wife Olive ran for her life through the house with bullets Down (Ms Ritchie) cannot be with us, as her predecessor, slamming into the walls behind her and crawled across Eddie McGrady, died yesterday. Down the years, Eddie the kitchen floor before climbing out through a window McGrady supported Seamus Mallon in making these to run for help. very allegations and voicing these concerns. Their daughter, Denise, aged four, heard the shots In touching on those murders, I have in no way and got out of bed to find her father bleeding and dead decided that they are the worst or the most egregious. I at the front door. She stood over his body for an hour, have tried to edit my concerns in this debate to focus on her nightdress soaked in blood, before the police considered angles of responsibility and irresponsibility on the MOD’s it safe enough to remove her and her 11-month-old part. I doubt whether the Minister has been briefed on brother, who was still in his cot. A former Member of what exactly is in all the documents that the Pat Finucane this House, Seamus Mallon, also arrived at the scene. Centre has unearthed, and on which the HET has He had heard interference on the police radio in his car, drawn, but I assure her that the Pat Finucane Centre is was immediately alarmed that it might be his friend and more than willing to assemble a thorough compendium party agent Denny Mullen and went to the house. of papers for the MOD’s fuller consideration, and for Denise Mullen, now Denise Fox, spoke about those the sake of a fuller response from the British Government. events at her party conference this weekend, along with An important process is under way in Northern Seamus Mallon, to put them on record. Ireland that we hope will produce ways to address some It should be remembered that some convictions were of the wider concerns about the past. The Haass process obtained for all 11 subsequent murders committed with should not be used by the British Government, particularly that submachine gun, unlike many of the other murders the MOD, to dodge their responsibility to tell a truth committed by the Glenanne gang. Those convicted that they denied for so long. included a private in the Territorial Army, a former UDR man and a serving RUC officer. That UDR 4.49 pm weapon’s 10 other victims included Peter and Jenny The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence McKearney, an elderly couple shot dead at their farmhouse (Anna Soubry): It is a pleasure, as ever, to serve under near Moy on 23 October that year; Michael Donnelly, your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. I congratulate the 14, Patsy Donnelly, 23, and Trevor Brecknell, 32, killed hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) on securing on 19 December; Brian, John, Martin and Anthony the debate. He raised a serious issue that has been the Reavey, shot dead on 4 January 1976; Fred McLoughlin, subject of much comment over a considerable period of shot dead on 15 May 1976; and Patsy McNeice, shot time. In recent weeks, the allegations that members of dead on 25 July 1976. Altogether, that weapon rendered the security forces were part of a murderous gang that 19 children fatherless and orphaned five. killed more than 100 people in the 1970s have been I am citing only one weapon as an example. The book given further currency in the recently published book to catalogues 120 killings, all of which relate to the murderous which the hon. Gentleman has referred. machinations of the Glenanne gang. That is not something being said only now, with hindsight; these allegations I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman has raised and concerns were apparent at the time, as we know some points that I will not be able to address in my from the suggestions in the papers about how to offset speech. I apologise for that, but I assure him that I will the complaints and allegations being made by MPs and write to him with responses to as many as possible of others, and the dismissal of active concerns from the those questions. The hon. Member for Belfast South Irish Government and at the community and pastoral (Dr McDonnell) mentioned the records at Kew, and I level. am told that those records have been made available to researchers and feature heavily in the book “Lethal I am particularly struck by a quotation by Father Allies”. Denis Faul two days after a bombing in Killyliss in which two men, their sister and her unborn child were The hon. Member for Foyle will be aware that such blown to pieces by a gang in which the HET believes a serious allegations should properly be dealt with by the UDR man was involved. Only a few days after those police, so I can say little about them. It is right and murders, on 26 April 1975, Father Denis Faul said: proper for me to condemn all sectarian attacks, by “The Government are teaching a deadly lesson to the people: whomsoever they may have been carried out, but I that power comes out of the barrel of a gun; that the ballot box is cannot comment on the accuracy or otherwise of the powerless against force; that police and army can betray their allegations, and it is not for the Ministry of Defence to trust and not be the impartial servants of government and people; usurp the function of the police by seeking to carry out that the judiciary can fail to oppose tyranny and to protect life.” investigations about those who may have been involved. Many of us tried to scream those concerns at the As I understand it, the historical enquiries team have British Government, the British establishment and the investigated several cases associated with the Glenanne MOD. We know that there were layers and lines of gang, but I am not aware that those investigations have dismissal and denial, and that the people offering those led to any fresh allegations of specific criminal activity concerns were denounced as subversive or irresponsible. by soldiers that are to be investigated further. Of course, 253WH Glenanne Gang Murders12 NOVEMBER 2013 Glenanne Gang Murders 254WH
[Anna Soubry] Those failings were totally unacceptable and should never have occurred. Equally, however, attempts to claim if such evidence were found and given to the police, it that such practices were endemic throughout the security would be for them to decide whether any further inquiries forces serving in Northern Ireland are, in our view, should be made. If they decided to pursue the matter, quite unsubstantiated. Sir Desmond goes into great my Department would provide every assistance to any detail on the matter in his report, which was based on subsequent investigation. unhindered access to the archives of the police, the It is clear to me, as it will be to most Members here Army, and the Security Service. He shows, to my mind today, that during the long period that we refer to as the incontrovertibly, that the actions of the security forces troubles, terrible crimes and atrocities were perpetrated frustrate loyalist terrorists and significantly reduced by extremists on both sides of the community. The their operational capacity in Northern Ireland. account by the hon. Member for Foyle of a number of terrible murders and killings brought back to me large Mark Durkan: I want to assure the Minister and chunks of my childhood. It is easy to forget that 40 years anyone else who may be concerned that in pointing to ago, such events were almost a feature of life. Here the seriousness of the allegations and the fact that they we are, 40 years on, enjoying a period of peace that we are supported by MOD documentation, I do not want could not foresee within our own lifetimes. There were in any way to traduce or hurt the memory of many incidents of great tragedy when members of the community other members of the security forces, including those of were innocently and accidentally caught up in events the Ulster Defence Regiment, who served with honourable that led to serious injury or death. motives and who believed that they were serving their Many allegations have been made about the armed community. They were let down every bit as much as forces’ role in various cases involving violent deaths the civilian community was by the corruption at the during the troubles, which remain unsolved. As I have heart of the process. said, such allegations must be investigated. At the same Anna Soubry: I absolutely agree that we must pay time, however, it is only right for me to make the point tribute to the majority of those individuals who served that some of these allegations may well be untrue. The in the way that the hon. Gentleman has described. As truth can be uncovered only by painstaking and professional the Minister with responsibility for veterans, I feel investigation. Although I am aware of the criticisms strongly that we owe the security forces who served in that have been made of the historical enquiries team of Northern Ireland a great deal of gratitude. The vast the Police Service of Northern Ireland—that is not a majority served with courage, fortitude, integrity and matter for me, of course—I pay tribute to the work they dignity, risking their lives to bring about the conditions have done in carrying out this necessary task over a that eventually enabled a process to take place that period of several years. allowed the people of Northern Ireland to lead peaceful Mark Durkan: The Minister has made the point that lives without fear for themselves or their families. Northern some of the allegations against individuals may be Ireland has been transformed since the Good Friday untrue, but does she accept that the documentation agreement was signed. shows that the Ministry of Defence knew one thing in Devolution has brought about many improvements private but told an entirely different story in public? for the people of Northern Ireland, and the recent Does she accept that the evidence points to the fact that positive achievements such as the city of culture award, the MOD dismissed the concerns that were being the investment conference and improved tourism, against legitimately expressed by Members of this House, by a backdrop of relative peace, have been welcomed by all other representatives in Northern Ireland and by other sections of the community. Although a number of Governments? people continue to pursue their aims through violence and maintain destructive links to the past, they are, Anna Soubry: I am in danger of repeating myself, but thankfully, few and there is very little public support for those are matters for the police to investigate. It would their actions. not be appropriate for me to comment. Those matters should be investigated thoroughly, honestly and vigorously Dr McDonnell: Is the Minister aware of, and will she by the police. It is not my Department’s intention to shy comment on, an inquest that is being undertaken at the away from acknowledging or apologising when genuine moment, which has been delayed for years, in which mistakes or errors have been made, or where, as a despite Army surveillance on the house that was attacked Department, we have failed in our obligation properly by the UVF— to manage our activities in Northern Ireland. We know from the conclusions reached by Sir Desmond de Silva Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. I think we may be in his review of the circumstances leading to the murder moving into the area of sub judice. of Pat Finucane that the Ministry of Defence made important failures in managing important aspects of Dr McDonnell: The Roseanne Mallon case is very our intelligence operations during the mid to late 1980s. significant. Some reports have suggested that that situation may have prevailed for several years. We know, for example, Jim Sheridan (in the Chair): Order. The Minister has that some members of the security forces bore responsibility very little time as it is. for the leaking of some sensitive intelligence information to loyalist organisations. Indeed, there have been convictions Anna Soubry: I would be quite happy for the hon. as a result, and rightly so. We also know that Army Gentleman to write to me, which would be the proper weapons, as the hon. Member for Foyle has described, way to raise the subject. The Chair has made a good have been stolen from military establishments and used point that the case may, in any event, be sub judice. As in terrorist attacks by loyalist gangs. the representative of a Department that has, I believe, 255WH Glenanne Gang Murders12 NOVEMBER 2013 Glenanne Gang Murders 256WH made a huge contribution to the current stable and Ireland. Where things have been done that should not optimistic situation in Northern Ireland, I share the have been done, it is right that the police carry out full, hopes of many that the Executive’s invitation to Richard rigorous and professional investigation, and when people Haass to address a range of issues, including those have done wrong, they should be brought to justice. arising from the past, will lead to some real progress on Question put and agreed to. this difficult issue. Although we should never seek to ignore the past, I hope that there will be a great emphasis across all parts of the community on shifting our collective 4.59 pm focus to a future shared by all the citizens of Northern Sitting adjourned.
31WS Written Statements12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Statements 32WS
Planning is a quasi-judicial process, and delays in Written Statements making decisions are unfair both to local residents and local firms; justice delayed is justice denied. Individual Tuesday 12 November 2013 applicants can already appeal directly to the Planning Inspectorate to have their application considered on grounds of non-determination (i.e. not determining an application within statutory deadlines). COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT In addition, section 1 of the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013 has amended the Town and Country Planning Improving Local Housing Act 1990 (“the 1990 Act”) by inserting new sections 62A to 62C. Section 62A allows a planning application, or an application for reserved matters consent, to be made The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for directly to the Secretary of State where the local planning Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): I authority has been designated by him, provided the am publishing today, following consultation, a stock planning application (or the application for reserved transfer manual for the period to 31 March 2015. The matters consent) is for major development. manual sets out the process for housing stock transfer Applications made to the Secretary of State in this and the criteria local authorities will need to meet where way will be submitted to and determined by the Planning they propose, with the support of their tenants, to Inspectorate, but the Act allows these to be “recovered” transfer their housing stock to a new or existing housing for Ministers’ own decision, in a similar way to planning association landlord. appeals. Following consultation, we have introduced some In the interests of transparency and consistency, decisions additional flexibility for local authorities and tenants on whether to recover appeals are made with reference who wish to transfer their homes and provided some to published criteria. For planning applications made further clarification on how the Government will assess under section 62A the Secretary of State will employ transfer applications to ensure that they represent good the same criteria in deciding whether to recover the value for money for the taxpayer. Where that is the case application for ministerial decision. A policy statement and a stock transfer offers opportunities for growth setting out these criteria has been placed in the Library locally through more private investment in new and of the House. existing affordable housing stock, then Government financial support will be available. We expect transfer proposals brought forward under the terms of this manual to complete by March CABINET OFFICE 2015. Resources are available from the Department for Communities and Local Government to write off debt associated with the housing stock being transferred in City Deals this period. It remains the case that transfers may only take place The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark): where that is the option favoured by a majority of Following the successful completion of the first wave of tenants voting in a ballot. We also want to give tenants city deals in July 2012 with the “core cities”, the Government more opportunities to weigh up the benefits of transfer committed to work with a further 20 cities and their and lead the transfer process themselves. wider areas to negotiate a second wave of city deals in The Government will shortly be laying the associated October 2012. secondary legislation before Parliament. It will outline Over recent months I have been in negotiation with how local authorities should co-operate with tenant the Solent local enterprise partnership; Southampton groups which wish to explore transfer and commence city council; Portsmouth city council; Hampshire county the process of transferring ownership where this is the council and local authorities that are members of the favoured option. Partnership for Urban South Hampshire (Eastleigh, Copies of the stock transfer manual and the analysis East Hampshire, Fareham, Gosport, Havant, Isle of of responses to the consultation on the draft manual Wight, New Forest, Test Valley and Winchester). have been placed in the Library of the House and are The Southampton and Portsmouth city deal will available on the Department’s website. maximise the economic strengths of these two coastal cities and the wider Solent area, by supporting further Planning Applications growth in the area’s maritime, marine and advanced manufacturing sectors. Over its lifetime, by bringing together the efforts and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for resources of local businesses, local councils and the Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles): The Government, the Solent local enterprise partnership Government are committed to ensuring that planning estimates that the deal will deliver: applications and related consents are processed promptly. Over 4,700 permanent new jobs particularly focused in Local people and authorities should be at the heart of marine, maritime and advanced manufacturing sectors; planning, but where councils persistently fail to meet Over 13,000 construction jobs; statutory deadlines for making decisions on time, applicants Unlock 107,000 square metres of new employment floor will be given the option of asking the Planning Inspectorate space with a focus on supporting growth in the marine, to decide their proposal instead. maritime and advanced manufacturing sectors; 33WS Written Statements12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Statements 34WS
Support small and medium enterprises to grow through Alongside the mandate for 2014-15, we have published better business support over the next three years; the Government’s response to the consultation and a Provide £115 million of local and national public sector refreshed version of the NHS outcomes framework investment; and 2014-15. Similar to the approach taken with the mandate, Lever in over £838 million of private sector investment into we have kept changes to the NHS outcomes framework the area through site development, skills and unemployment to an essential minimum. schemes; and business support services. Copies of all these documents have been placed in the Library. Copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. HEALTH
NHS England (Mandate) HOME DEPARTMENT
Immigration and Visa Charging Principles The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): Today the Government have laid before Parliament the refreshed mandate to NHS England for 2014-15. The The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): refreshed mandate will come into effect from 1 April People who need permission to visit the UK and those 2014 and was developed following public consultation who want to live, work or study here must pay a fee for which ran from 5 July to 27 September. their visa. It is important that we seek input into how The mandate sets an ambitious agenda to transform we ensure that those who benefit directly from the patient care and we expect NHS England to demonstrate immigration system and enhanced border control contribute significant progress against all the objectives by March appropriately to its costs in the future. 2015. To provide stability and enable the NHS to plan I am therefore launching a targeted consultation looking ahead, we have carried forward all existing 24 objectives. at charging principles which will begin on 12 November The Government have kept changes to an essential and will last for three weeks. As part of the consultation minimum to ensure the refreshed mandate remains we will be seeking views on how the Home Office strategic, outcomes-focused and affordable within NHS charges customers and the services it provides. England’s budget, which is also set out in the mandate for 2014-15. We will be seeking views from stakeholders who have an interest in the way fees are set, the consistency and Where the Government have introduced changes, complexity of fees and on premium services. We are these focus on the priorities that will support the successful also seeking views on proposals on administrative reviews transformation of health and care services to meet the and refunds and how the Home Office interacts with needs of an ageing population and the increasing prevalence third parties. of long-term physical and mental health conditions: A copy of the consultation document will be placed the vulnerable older people’s plan as a means for improving the health of the whole population and to provide excellent in the House Library and on the gov.uk website. care for older people; the addition of one new objective in relation to the system wide response to the Francis inquiry recommendations; and INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT taking forward actions to deliver a service that values mental and physical health equally. The Government have included further ambitions on Typhoon Haiyan a limited number of areas to deliver the quality of care and treatment people need and expect. These areas are: reducing avoidable premature mortality; supporting people The Secretary of State for International Development with dementia; improving patient experience—friends (Justine Greening): I would like to update the House on and family test; and making better use of resources. the UK’s response to typhoon Haiyan in the Philippines. The mandate also reflects the work being taken forward Typhoon Haiyan made landfall in the Philippines by NHS England to improve integrated care; addressing on 7 November and was one of the strongest storms on the failings witnessed at Winterbourne View private record. It has caused widespread devastation. Current hospital; supporting a fair playing field for providers; estimates suggest that 10,000 have been killed in Tacloban improving outcomes for children and young people; alone and over 4.3 million have been seriously affected and supporting innovation to improve patient care. by the storm. These numbers are likely to increase as While the mandate sets out our vision over the long those responding to the aftermath of the typhoon gain term, we also need to tackle immediate pressures. The greater access to affected areas. Government previously announced their plans to handle The Government of the Philippines ordered mass pressures on A and E this winter and the allocation of evacuations in advance of the storm and pre-positioned £250 million funding to NHS England for distribution some humanitarian assistance around the country.However, to the areas that need it most. The additional allocation the needs in the country are overwhelming and additional requires an increase to the revenue budget for NHS assistance has been requested in order to reach those in England for 2013-14, and a revision to the current desperate need. The situation is also compounded by mandate will be laid before Parliament shortly reflecting the residual impact of previous crises in the Philippines, this uplift in the budget only. such as an earthquake in October and the ongoing 35WS Written Statements12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Statements 36WS conflict in Mindanao. The Government of the Philippines with pre-approved suppliers. This will provide humanitarian accepted an offer of assistance from the UN Humanitarian aid for up to 500,000 people, including temporary shelter Coordinator. and clean water. The additional £1 million is for in-kind Typhoon Haiyan has caused significant infrastructural support including the provision of urgently-needed shelter damage. Major roads have been affected and some and household items from the UK’s humanitarian stockpile. remain impassable, hampering rescue and relief operations. Five aircraft have been chartered from Dubai in order Thirteen airports across the country have suspended to transport this support. The funding will also fund the operations. The main seaports remain closed. Power deployment of two public health specialists to work outages and communication interruptions are being with the World Health Organisation to prevent the experienced across a number of provinces which has spread of infectious diseases. raised concerns over access to water as pumps are now On 11 November, the Prime Minster announced ineffective. The UN Office for the Coordination of that the UK would increase its assistance to a total of Humanitarian Affairs has indicated that critical needs £10 million. This includes a further £l million for aircraft include shelter, food, health, WASH (water, sanitation handling and airlift of humanitarian supplies, as well as and hygiene), camp management and logistics. The UN the provision of 4x4s and mobile deployment kits, and World Food Programme estimates that 2.5 million people an additional £3 million allocation for the rapid response may be in need of emergency food aid. facility. As a further part of the UK response, HMS The Prime Minister spoke with President Aquino of Daring will also redeploy to the affected region and will the Philippines on 10 November to offer UK assistance provide drinking water and a team of trained medics, as with the humanitarian response. DFID currently has a well as serve as a UK operating base, bringing helicopter team of seven deployed to Manila with three more airlift capacity. arriving today. I approved a £6 million aid package on The Philippines Department of Health has made it 9 November for immediate life-saving humanitarian clear that there is an urgent need for extra medical support. This included a £5 million allocation to DFID’s assistance and as a result yesterday I activated the UK rapid response facility which channels funding at speed International Emergency Trauma Register (UKIETR). to pre-registered non-governmental organisations (NGOs) We are mobilising a 12 strong medical team of UK and includes the bulk purchase of humanitarian kit surgeons, doctors and paramedics.
15P Petitions12 NOVEMBER 2013 Petitions 16P
Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local Petition Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural communities; notes that the Rural Penalty sees urban Tuesday 12 November 2013 areas receive 50% more support per head than rural areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; and opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the PRESENTED PETITION 2013–14 settlement for six years until 2020. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor Commons urges the Government to reduce the Rural Penalty in staged steps by at least 10% by 2020. Rural Fair Share Campaign And the Petitioners remain, etc. The Petition of the residents of Macclesfield, [P001293]
525W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 526W Written Answers to Missing Persons Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Northern Ireland what recent discussions she has had with the Minister of Justice in Northern Ireland on disappeared persons; and what steps she is taking to Tuesday 12 November 2013 locate their remains. [174779]
Mrs Villiers: I have regular meetings with the NORTHERN IRELAND Minister of Justice for Northern Ireland on a range of issues. The British and Irish Governments continue to Foreign Investment in UK fund and support the work of the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims Remains. I would reiterate Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for their recent call for new information to assist in locating the Northern Ireland what meetings she has had with remains of those who have not yet been recovered. foreign direct investors in Northern Ireland since her appointment. [174624] Northern Ireland Government Mrs Villiers: I take every opportunity to promote Northern Ireland as a place to do business and grow Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for business whenever I meet potential investors. Northern Ireland what written submissions she has On 10 October, I hosted a dinner at Hillsborough made to the all-party group chaired by Dr Richard Castle and made a speech to around 120 delegates from Haass; and if she will publish those submissions. a number of G8 countries who were attending the [174621] Northern Ireland Investment Conference to discuss investment opportunities in Northern Ireland. Mrs Villiers: I have made no submissions to the On 7 November, the Northern Ireland Minister for all-party group. Trade, Enterprise and Investment and I both spoke to a number of ambassadors and senior diplomats from 16 Telephone Services targeted countries and regions at a Northern Ireland Investment Seminar at Lancaster House that focused Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for on increasing investment and trade opportunities. Northern Ireland how many telephone lines with the prefix (a) 0845, (b) 0844 and (c) 0843 her Human Trafficking Department (i) operates and (ii) sponsors; how many calls each number has received in the last 12 months; Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for and whether alternative numbers charged at the BT Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has made local rate are available in each case. [175003] of the adequacy of measures in place to tackle human trafficking and modern day slavery in Northern Mrs Villiers: My Department operates one telephone Ireland. [174622] line with the prefix 0844 for the purpose of updating staff in the event of an emergency situation. Details of Mrs Villiers: This is an issue of great concern and one the number of calls to this line are not recorded and no on which all parts of the United Kingdom need to work alternative number is available at the BT local rate. My closely together along with the authorities in Dublin Department does not operate or sponsor any telephone and other European capitals. The Inter-Departmental lines with the prefix 0845 or 0843. Ministerial Group on Human Trafficking (the IDMG), chaired by the Security Minister, provides strategic leadership in the UK’s response to this issue and each Victims of the devolved administrations, including the Northern Ireland Executive, are represented on the IDMG, ensuring Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for that there is an effective, co-ordinated response across Northern Ireland which victims’ groups she has met the UK. since her appointment. [174623] Important responsibilities relating to countering human trafficking are devolved. I am advised that, through the Mrs Villiers: I have met with a number of victims Organised Crime Task Force and the Engagement Group groups and their representatives, both formally and on Human Trafficking, the Northern Ireland Minister informally, since my appointment. Scheduled meetings of Justice has put arrangements in place to ensure an have included: effective multi-agency, partnership approach to tackling La Mon survivors; human trafficking within Northern Ireland. South East Fermanagh Foundation (SEFF); The Northern Ireland Assembly Human Trafficking Omagh Support and Self Help Group (OSSHG); and Exploitation (Further Provisions and Support for Foundation4Peace at the Warrington Centre; Victims) Bill is due to complete its Committee Stage on WAVE; 12 November. The Bill defines human trafficking and slavery offences, and also contains measures to prevent Ballymurphy Families; and combat human trafficking and slavery in Northern Amnesty International; Ireland as well as providing assistance and support for Derg Valley Victims Voice (DVW); victims. Families of the Disappeared. 527W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 528W
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE State for Justice, the Minister without Portfolio, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe Egypt (Mr Clarke), and my right hon. and noble Friend the Baroness Warsi raised the death penalty separately with Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Saudi Justice Minister when he visited last year and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has called for the cessation of public beheading. The UK made representations to the Egyptian Government pressed the Saudi Government to implement measures regarding the need for a fair trial for former President designed to prevent the application of the death penalty Mohammed Morsi. [174948] for children during Saudi Arabia’s recent Universal Hugh Robertson: We are concerned by the high number Periodic Review. of arrests and charges brought against members of Palestinians political parties in Egypt. In a statement on 1 August 2013, after speaking to the Egyptian Vice President, the Jack Lopresti: To ask the Secretary of State for Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond his Department holds on how many Palestinians (Yorks) (Mr Hague) said receiving United Nations Relief and Works Agency aid “I also called for the release of all political detainees, including are surviving refugees from 1948. [174632] Dr Morsi, unless there are criminal charges to be made against them, and emphasised that it is vital that any charges are not Mr Duncan: I have been asked to reply on behalf of politically motivated.” the Department for International Development. We continue to press for the release of detainees, and call for the respect of their human rights. The registration of refugees falls under the mandate of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. DFID The trial is a matter for the Egyptian courts but it is does not hold this information. important that due process is observed. We are following developments closely. Jack Lopresti: To ask the Secretary of State for Iran Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Palestinians who were born and live in the West Bank Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Gaza are considered by his Department to be and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Ministers refugees. [174634] in his Department have had with other Security Council members on Iran’s reported contravention of Hugh Robertson: Under the operational definition used by the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), UN Security Council Resolution 1747. [174883] Palestine refugees are people whose normal place of Hugh Robertson: The United Kingdom is an active residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May member of the UN 1737 Committee, which is tasked 1948, and who lost both their homes and means of with implementing UN Security Council Resolutions livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, (UNSCR) regarding Iran, including UNSCR 1747. The and their dependents. The descendants of Palestine Committee examines reports of alleged violations of refugee males are also eligible for registration. Some of the UN sanctions regime and issues regular 90-day those eligible were born and/or live in Gaza and the reports to the UN Security Council on sanctions west bank. UNRWA’s mandate has been regularly implementation—including incidents of potential violations. considered and renewed by the UN General Assembly. Ministers regularly discuss Iran sanctions with their Palestine refugees are not necessarily refugees as defined international counterparts. by the 1951 UN refugee convention. Those Palestinians receiving UNRWA assistance or protection are ineligible Middle East for refugee status under the convention, pursuant to article 1D of the convention. Those Palestinians who Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign have not been assisted or protected by UNRWA must and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Ministers establish, if seeking asylum, that they meet the definition in his Department have had with the governments of of a refugee in article 1A of the convention. Yemen and Saudi Arabia on child executions in those countries. [174922] Russia Hugh Robertson: The Government opposes the use of Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for the death penalty against people of all ages. In Yemen, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent where prosecutions are currently based on confessions representations he has made to the Russian and witness statements, the UK is supporting transition Government in respect of members of Greenpeace to collection and analysis of evidence by organising and held by the authorities in Russia. [175250] funding training in basic forensics and crime scene investigations. In September 2013 the UK co-sponsored Mr Lidington: I refer the hon. Member to my answer the UN Human Rights Council Resolution on Yemen. of 8 November 2013, Official Report, column 366W. We regularly lobby the Government of Yemenon human rights issues bilaterally and with our EU partners. Syria Former Parliamentary Under-Secretary at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) and Commonwealth Affairs what next steps were publicly condemned the execution of Rizana Nafeek in agreed with Syria’s neighbours following the London Saudi Arabia in January 2013. He, the then Secretary of 11 meeting in October. [174884] 529W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 530W
Hugh Robertson: The London 11 countries—which (2) on which date the Iraq Inquiry requested the include Syria’s neighbours, Turkey and Jordan, as well Cabinet Secretary to disclose records of conversations as other regional actors—agreed on 22 October to between the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and throw their full and collective weight behind the UN-led Cowdenbeath and President Bush in the period leading Geneva II process to deliver a political transition in to the conflict in Iraq; [175255] Syria to end the crisis. The communiqué set out a (3) if he will disclose to the Iraq Inquiry records of number of next steps, including agreement to urge the conversations between (a) the right hon. Tony Blair Syrian National Coalition to commit fully to the Geneva and President Bush and (b) the right hon. Member for II process and to provide them, as well as the United Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath and President Bush Nations and its Special Envoy, Lakhdar Brahimi, the referred to in that letter; [175256] intensive political and practical support needed to give (4) if he will disclose to the Iraq Inquiry the material the Geneva II process the best chance of success. relating to some 200 Cabinet-level discussions referred Telephone Services to in that letter; [175257] (5) on which date the Iraq Inquiry requested the Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Cabinet Secretary to disclose records of conversations and Commonwealth Affairs how many telephone lines between the right hon. Tony Blair and President Bush with the prefix (a) 0845, (b) 0844 and (c) 0843 his in the period leading to the conflict in Iraq. [175258] Department (i) operates and (ii) sponsors; how many calls each number has received in the last 12 months; The Prime Minister: The Inquiry Committee has had and whether alternative numbers charged at the BT full access to all documents relevant to its work, including local rate are available in each case. [174998] records of Cabinet level discussions and notes and records of discussions between Mr Blair, the right hon. Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), (FCO) and its agencies do not have any 0845, 0844 or and President Bush. 0843 telephone numbers in use for the public. On 22 February 2013 the FCO discontinued the consular travel advice helpline which was handled by a contracted company and was a national rate 0845 number. JUSTICE Yemen Crime: West Midlands
Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) business Justice what the overall number of crime levels for the and (b) tourist visas were issued by the British West Mercia Police Force was in each of the last five Embassy in Sana’a, Yemen, in each year since 2005. years. [172039] [173943] Damian Green: I have been asked to reply on behalf Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply on behalf of of the Home Department. the Home Department. The table shows the total number of offences recorded We do not record whether visit visa applicants are by the West Mercia police force for each year from ‘tourists’—the visit category covers a number of other 2008-09 to 2012-13. These numbers exclude fraud, to routes, including to visit friends or distant family members. allow for a consistent comparison between years. The following table shows the statistics for business visa and visit visa applications issued in Sana’a, Yemen from Total offences (excluding fraud) in the West Mercia police force area, 2005. The visa section in Sana’a was closed in October 2008-09 to 2012-13 2010, so these statistics only cover the period up to that Total offences date. 2006-09 75,494 2009-10 68,868 Number issued 2010-11 69,648 Visit Visit—Business 2011-12 66,963 2005 1,449 70 2012-13 58,769 2006 1,088 338 Note: Due to the staggered move of recording fraud offences try forces to 2007 711 348 Action Fraud, crime numbers are shown excluding fraud offences to 2008 485 304 allow for consistent comparisons. 2009 382 194 Domestic Violence 2010 398 107 Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many incidents of domestic violence were PRIME MINISTER reported to the police in each year since 2010; and how Iraq Committee of Inquiry many of these incidents resulted in (a) referral to the Crown Prosecution Service, (b) a prosecution and (c) Mr Llwyd: To ask the Prime Minister with reference a conviction in each such year. [175281] to Sir John Chilcot’s letter of 4 November 2013 to him, published on the Iraq Inquiry website (1) if he will The Solicitor-General: I have been asked to reply. disclose to the Iraq Inquiry the 25 notes from the right It is not possible to identify domestic violence cases hon. Tony Blair to President Bush, referred to in that from the recorded crime figures returned to the Home letter; and if he will make a statement; [175254] Office by police forces as these figures are based on 531W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 532W counts of crime under the appropriate offence classification Immigration: Appeals (e.g. GBH, ABH) and there are no details on the offender-victim relationship. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for The records held by the Crown Prosecution Service Justice how many decisions subject to an appeal to the (CPS) identify the number of suspects referred to it for Immigration and Asylum Chamber of the First-tier a charging decision, the number of defendants prosecuted tribunal have been withdrawn by the Home and the outcome of the prosecution, in cases identified Department within five days of the appeal date in each and flagged as domestic violence. The CPS does not of the last five years. [174694] collect data showing the number of incidents of domestic violence reported to the police. Mr Vara: The First-tier Tribunal—Immigration and The CPS defines domestic violence as any threatening Asylum Chamber (IAC), administered by HM Courts behaviour, violence or abuse (psychological, physical, & Tribunals Service (HMCTS), hears appeals against sexual, financial or emotional) between those who are the Home Office relating to a range of immigration, or have been intimate partners or family members, asylum. and nationality decisions. regardless of gender or sexuality. Family members include HMCTS does not collate centrally the information mother, father, son, daughter, sister and grandparents, requested on appeals withdrawn by the Home Office. whether directly related, in laws or step family. While data are held on withdrawal numbers, published The number of suspects referred to the CPS, for a here, charging decision since January 2010, for allegations of https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/tribunals-statistics domestic violence was as follows: it is not broken down on the basis of which party Pre-charge decision withdrew the appeal. To collate the information would Number mean the examination of each of those electronic records, which would be at disproportionate cost. 2010 100,457 2011 97,638 Prisons: Education 2012 88,200 January to September 2013 73,036 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what funding his Department has allocated for (a) In the same period, the numbers of defendants prosecuted 2013-14 and (b) 2014-15 on each of the contracts to by the CPS, and convicted of offences involving domestic deliver education services in prisons in England and violence, was as follows: Wales. [175179]
Prosecutions Convictions Percentage of (number) (number) convictions (%) Matthew Hancock: I am replying as Minister responsible for prison education in England. 2010 81,150 58,257 71.8 I have asked the interim chief executive of Skills 2011 79,952 58,309 72.9 Funding to write to the hon. Member with details of 2012 72,565 54,033 74.5 funding allocated to prison education contracts in England, January to 55,763 41,583 74.6 September 2013 and I will place a copy of that letter in the Libraries of the House. In Wales, education in the public sector prisons is European Supervision Orders delivered through funding from the Welsh Government. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prisons: Health Services what assessment she has made of the benefits to the UK of the European Supervision Order; and if she will Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice make a statement. [173116] (1) when each of the contracts between his Department and the organisations that provide healthcare provision Mr Vara: On 9 July 2013 the Secretary of State for in prisons in England and Wales was signed; [175180] the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member (2) which organisations provide healthcare provision for Maidenhead (Mrs May) announced to Parliament to each prison in England and Wales; [175181] that the Government intended to exercise the UK’s opt-out under the Lisbon treaty and seek to rejoin a (3) when each of the contracts between his package of 35 police and criminal justice measures Department and providers of healthcare provision in which are in the UK’s national interest. Following prisons in England and Wales terminate; [175182] debates and votes in both Houses of Parliament the (4) how much his Department spent in (a) 2010-11, Prime Minister wrote to the President of the Council of (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13 on each of the contracts Ministers on 24 July 2013 to provide formal notification to deliver healthcare provision in prisons in England that the Government has decided to exercise its right, and Wales. [175183] provided for by Article 10(4) of Protocol 36 to the Treaties, to opt out of all pre-Lisbon police and criminal Norman Lamb: I have been asked to reply on behalf justice measures. of the Department of Health. The Government has committed to providing Parliament Since 1 April 2013, NHS England has commissioned with an Impact Assessment on the final list of measures health care in all publically-run prisons in England. that the UK will apply to rejoin. This will be done in Commissioning is discharged by NHS England good time ahead of the second vote on this matter and through a national structure, comprising four regional contain all relevant information. and 27 area teams (ATs). 10 ATs are designated to 533W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 534W undertake health care commissioning across the entire Recruitment public prison estate in England. Health care in any individual prison may be provided by several contractors, Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice including national health service, private and voluntary how many new staff his Department has employed sector organisations but this information is not collected under (a) fixed-term contracts and (b) short-term centrally by NHS England. contracts since May 2010. [174464] We are informed by NHS England that data are not collected centrally on starting and end dates of provider Mr Vara: Fixed-term and short fixed-term appointments, contracts. NHS England collects data on central funding which include interns and apprentices, are made in allocations made to the 10 ATs which commission accordance with the rules set out in the Civil Service prison health care, but not on health care spending in Commissioners’ Recruitment Code. These appointments individual prisons, which is determined locally. Data on enable the Ministry of Justice to respond flexibly to NHS England’s central funding allocations made to the changes in demand for its services. In particular, HM 10 ATs in 2013-14 have been placed in the Library. Courts and Tribunals Service has used short-term As of July 2013, the following 12 prisons in England appointments of less than 12 months during periods of were contractually managed by the private sector, restructuring and business change. with health care services commissioned directly either The numbers of fixed-term and short-term staff contracts by the private operator or by the National Offender awarded in each year by the Ministry of Justice since Management Service (NOMS) through NHS or private May 2010 are set out in the following table. It is not sector providers: Altcourse; Ashfield; Birmingham; possible to identify whether any of the contracts are for Bronzefield; Doncaster; Dovegate; Forest Bank; Lowdham the same members of staff. Grange; Oakwood; Peterborough; Rye Hill; and, Thameside. Information about these prisons is not collected (a) Fixed- (b) Short- by the Department. term contracts term contracts Total
Prior to 1 April 2013, the Department allocated May 2010- 1,075 240 1,315 funding to primary care trusts (PCTs) with prisons March 2011 in their catchment areas to commission primary health April 2011- 516 596 1,112 care, mental health and substance misuse services in March 2012 prisons. Data on spending allocations by the April 2012- 247 837 1,084 Department to PCTs and on PCT allocations made to March 2013 individual prisons in 2010-11, 2011-12 and 2012-13 April 2013 151 832 983 were collected by the Department and have been placed -September in the Library. 2013 Total 1,989 2,505 4,494 Data in respect of Welsh prisons are collected by the Welsh Government. Sunningdale Park Rape: Victim Support Schemes Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice how often his Department has used what recent discussions he has had with police and Sunningdale Park for Civil Service events since May crime commissioners about funding for rape support 2010; what the nature of each such event was; and what the cost of each such event was. [174405] centres; and if he will make a statement. [175233] Mr Vara: Until the end of March 2012, Sunningdale Damian Green: The Ministry of Justice’s consultation Park was part of the civil service college, later the and response papers ’Getting it right for victims and national school of Government. Information on how witnesses’ outlined the Government’s intention on the often the Ministry of Justice has used Sunningdale Park future commissioning of victim services, including extending for civil service events between May 2010 and March the existing coalition commitment to provide sustainable 2012 is not available centrally. It would require a Ministry funding for rape support centres via a national fund. wide exercise to collect the information. This would The previous Victim’s Minister, wrote to PCCs on incur disproportionate costs. 29 May 2013 as part of our engagement, outlining the intention for the rape support arrangements beyond 2013-14. Support for Victims of Crime The Association of Police and Crime Commissioners were informed when we launched our new £4 million Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for per annum Rape Support Fund recently. The fund will Justice what support his Department provides to commence in April 2014, when the previous fund ends, victims of crime. [901044] for two years with the option to extend for a further year. This is a joint commissioning process with the Damian Green: We currently provide around £50 million Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime who are offering of funding for services supporting victims of crime. In an additional £1.26 million per annum which is ring-fenced future, more money than ever before will be available to fund services across London’s four quadrant areas. for victims’ services, with a potential budget of up to This does not preclude PCCs providing additional support £100 million. Services will be commissioned locally, by from the core funding they will receive in 2014-15 for police and crime commissioners, though there will remain the commissioning of local victims services. some services which will be commissioned nationally. 535W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 536W
HOME DEPARTMENT Antisocial Behaviour Orders
Animal Experiments: Scotland Mr Steve Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many breaches of antisocial Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the behaviour orders (ASBOs) have resulted in a custodial Home Department what proportion of the project sentence in each of the last three years for which figures licences granted under the Animals (Scientific are available; and what assessment he has made of the Procedures) Act 1986 in Scotland in 2012 were in the likely change in the number of custodial sentences (a) mild, (b) moderate, (c) substantial and (d) caused by the abolition of ASBOs and the introduction unclassified severity banding. [170626] of injunctions to prevent nuisance and annoyance. [174380] James Brokenshire: Of the project licences granted under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in Scotland in 2012, 42% were in the mild, 56% moderate, Norman Baker [holding answer 8 November 2013]: 1% substantial. The remaining 1% were not allocated to The total number of occasions on which offenders any of these bands. received an immediate custodial sentence for breaching their antisocial behaviour order in 2010, 2011 and 2012 (latest currently available) is shown in the table. Antisocial Antisocial Behaviour behaviour orders can be breached more than once and in more than one year. This table counts all the occasions Mr Steve Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for the on which courts imposed sentences of immediate custody Home Department (1) what estimate she has made of for breach of an antisocial behaviour order. the number of injunctions to prevent nuisance and The breach rate of 58% for antisocial behaviour annoyance that will be issued to (a) under 18s and (b) orders shows that enforcement alone is not effective at adults in the first 12 months following their stopping antisocial behaviour. Importantly, the new introduction; and if she will make a statement; [174377] injunction will give the court powers to include positive (2) what assessment she has made of the potential requirements to address the underlying issues that may change in the length of time from application to issue be driving an individual’s behaviour. That notwithstanding, arising from abolishing anti-social behaviour orders the injunction will have serious penalties on breach— that are issued by magistrates’ courts and moving to including imprisonment for adults and, as a last resort, injunctions to prevent nuisance and annoyance that for under-18s. will be issued by county courts; and if she will make a Total occasions on which offenders received a custodial sentence1 for statement; [174379] breaching their antisocial behaviour order, 2010-12, England and (3) what estimate she has made of the cost to (a) Wales local authorities and (b) police forces of bringing Final outcome (all courts) contempt of court proceedings against persons in 201020112012 breach of injunctions to prevent nuisance and Immediate 2,281 2,199 2,564 annoyances; and if she will make a statement. [174381] custody1 1 Custodial sentences for breaching an ASBO may have been given Norman Baker [holding answer 8 November 2013]: It concurrently with custodial sentences for other offences of which the will be for frontline professionals to decide when use of person was found guilty. the new Injunction to Prevent Nuisance and Annoyance Note: ASBO breach data are compiled by matching records of ASBOs (IPNA) is appropriate. However, our impact assessment, issued with ASBOs breached. The nature of this matching process published alongside the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime means that previously published ASBO breach data are subject to and Policing Bill in May, assumes that there will be a minor revision. Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented 5% increase in the number of injunctions in the first are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these year, compared to the orders it will replace. data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care We also assumed in that document that approximately should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable 30% of injunctions would be issued to under 18s, based limitations are taken into account when those data are used. on the current proportion of Anti-Social Behaviour Source: Orders issued to those in that age group. Justice Statistics Analytical Services within the Ministry of Justice. Our published impact assessment assumes that breach proceedings for the IPNA will be similar to the process Arrest Warrants for the Anti-Social Behaviour injunction. As such, the unit cost of a breach hearing is estimated to be approximately £600 for someone aged over 18 and £700 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home for someone aged under 18. Department how many European Arrest Warrants the We have assumed that this cost will be the same UK has (a) issued and (b) received in each year from whether the applicant is a local authority or a police 2004 to 2011. [173875] force. The lower test and lower civil standard of proof for Mr Harper [holding answer 5 November 2013]: Ihave the new injunction, compared to the anti-social behaviour been informed by the National Crime Agency (NCA) order on application, means that it will be faster and that the number of European Arrest Warrants (EAW) easier for the police, councils and other frontline that they received and issued in each year from 2004 to professionals to use it. 2011 was: 537W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 538W
disaggregated by gender. However information on the Number of EAWs Number of EAWs issued received basis of claim for asylum is not routinely recorded, and the information requested could only be obtained through 2004 96 1,865 a manual search of individual case files. To do this 2005 131 5,986 would incur disproportionate cost. 2006 126 5,020 All asylum case workers received dedicated and 2007 198 2,280 mandatory training on gender issues and have specific 2008 218 3,307 guidance on managing gender related asylum claims. 2009 246 3,826 This includes guidance on considering claims with regards 2010 252 4,369 to persecution which is gender-specific or predominantly 2011 226 6,512 gender-specific, including sexual violence and genital Asylum mutilation. Each claim is considered on its own merits in the light of country of origin information and guidance.
Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Home Department pursuant to the answer of Home Department how many female asylum seekers 15 October 2013, Official Report, column 642W, on have been deported back to countries where female asylum, what the total number of complaints made genital mutilation is (a) legal or (b) illegal but widely against the Commercial and Operational Managers practised in each year since 2005. [174338] Procuring Asylum Support Service project was. [174811] Mr Harper: The list of 29 countries across Africa and the middle east where female genital mutilation (FGM) Mr Harper [holding answer 11 November 2013]: The is prevalent is taken from the UNICEF report found at: total number of complaints made against the Commercial http://www.childinfo.org/files/FGCM_Lo_res.pdf and Operational Managers Procuring Asylum Support Service project in the period January 2013 to June 2013 24 of those countries have enacted decrees or legislated was 309. against FGM but the law is often not enforced. It is believed that FGM is practised all over the world including Asylum: Females western countries that have migrant communities. The number of women returned to countries where Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for the FGM is known to be prevalent is shown in the following Home Department (1) how many applications for table. asylum were made by women fleeing sexual violence or The UNICEF paper ‘Female Genital Mutilation/Cutting’ genital mutilation from each country of origin in each provides a statistical overview and exploration of the year since 2005; and how many such applications (a) dynamics of change, and draws on “... 70 nationally have been granted, (b) have been rejected, (c) were representative surveys over a 20-year period”and presents withdrawn and (d) remain unconcluded; [174337] the most comprehensive compilation to date of statistics (2) what guidance is given to UK Border Agency and analyses on FGM/C. The report identifies 29 countries staff on the treatment of women seeking asylum on the in Africa and the middle east where FGM/C is most grounds that they are fleeing sexual violence or genital prevalent. mutilation. [174339] The table lists the 29 countries referred to above, prevalence and where legislation/decrees have been put Mr Harper: Statistics are recorded and published on in place to prevent FGM/C and numbers of removals the number of applications for asylum and they are per year.
Country and prevalence (%) FGM/C prohibited by law/decree* 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
Benin (13%) Benin 2003 3——— 1 2—— Burkina Faso (76%) Burkina Faso 1996 — — 1————— Cameroon (1%) 1 3 49 20 16 9 10 9 Central African Republic (24%) Central African Republic 1966, — 3— 2———— 1996* Chad (44%) Chad 2003 1 1—————— Cote d’Ivoire (38%) Cote d’Ivoire 1998 — —274—13 Djibouti (93%) Djibouti 1995, 2009* ———— 1——— Egypt (91%) Egypt 2008 75449—19 Eritrea (89%) Eritrea 2007 1 1 2————— Ethiopia (74%) Ethiopia 2004 2 10 10 117533 Gambia (76%) — 2 12 14 13 11 6 5 15 Ghana (4%) Ghana 1994, 2007* 62 37 26 27 22 17 23 15 Guinea (96%) Guinea 1965, 2000* 1 — — 2 — — 2 — Guinea-Bissau (50%) Guinea-Bissau 2011 3 — 1————— Iraq (8%) Iraq (Kurdistan region) 2011 2 — 2 — — 1 — — Kenya (27%) Kenya 2001, 2011* 17 28 33 41 24 23 18 11 Liberia (66%) — 1 1 — 4 — 1 1 — Mali (89%) — — 2 — — 1 1 — — 539W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 540W
Country and prevalence (%) FGM/C prohibited by law/decree* 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
Mauritania (69%) Mauritania 2005 — 1—————— Niger (2%) Niger 2003 1 1 — 1———— Nigeria (27%) Nigeria (some states) 1999-2006 79 157 154 170 158 82 93 61 Senegal (26%) Senegal 1999 — — 2 1 — 2 — 2 Sierra Leone (88%) — 12 13 24 122732 Somalia (98%) Somalia 2012 — — — 3———— Sudan (88%) Sudan (some states) 2008-2009 2 2 1 — — 1 — — Togo (4%) Togo 1998 11 6 6 1—— 1— Uganda (1%) Uganda 2010 97 72 48 39 38 27 21 13 United Republic of Tanzania (15%) United Republic of Tanzania 1998 — — 10717106 Yemen (23%) Yemen 2001 311531——
26 countries in Africa and the middle east have under the Riots (Damages) Act 1886 is; how many such prohibited FGM/C by law or constitutional decree. Two claims have been settled; how many such claims have of them—South Africa and Zambia—are not among been rejected; how many such claims remain the 29 countries where the practice is concentrated. outstanding; what total sum has been paid to With the exception of Guinea and the Central African businesses under the Act in relation to the August 2011 Republic, where bans on FGM/C were instituted, in the riots; and what the total amount claimed by businesses mid-1960s, the process of enacting legislation or revising to date is. [175088] the criminal code to outlaw the practice only began to take hold in Africa quite recently. Legislation prohibiting FGM/C has also been adopted in 33 countries on other Damian Green [holding answer 11 November 2013]: continents, mostly to protect children with origins in The Home Office does not hold comprehensive details practising countries. of the claims made under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886 in relation to the August 2011 riots. Under the 1886 Borders: Personal Records Act, all claims for compensation are made directly to the relevant police authority (from November 2012, Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the police and crime commissioner or in London to the Home Department by what date she expects the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime). e-Borders programme to fulfil its original objective of covering all international travellers using all UK ports. [159974] Community Orders
Mr Harper: The Government remains committed to e-borders, which is currently covering around two-thirds Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the of passenger movements. The UK has one of the most Home Department pursuant to the answer of comprehensive passenger data systems currently operating 30 October 2013, Official Report, column 476, on in Europe. The Government is working closely with community orders, what steps she (a) has taken and passenger operators, ports and international partners (b) plans to take to increase the number of victims of to provide for more comprehensive coverage, with a crime who have their views taken into consideration by view to introducing exit checks by 2015. the police or Crown Prosecution Service; and if she will make a statement. [174259] Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre
Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Norman Baker: Under the new Victims’ Code, published Home Department how many prosecutions have been on 29 October 2013, where an out of court disposal taken forward as a result of the work of Child (including a community resolution) is being considered Exploitation and Online Protection in each of the last by the police, Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) or three financial years. [174096] youth offending team, victims are entitled, where practicable, to be asked for their views and to have these views taken Damian Green [holding answer 5 November 2013]: into account when a decision is made. Victims are The above information is not held centrally. entitled to be notified of the reasons following a CPS or a police decision not to prosecute. Under the new code, The Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) victims are also entitled to information about how they Command housed within the National Crime Agency can access further information about a CPS decision receives and develops intelligence which is then disseminated and how they can seek a review of a CPS decision if to police forces for intervention locally. The decision to they are dissatisfied with it as part of the CPS “Victims’ progress a particular intelligence package and ultimately Right to Review”. to recommend prosecution of an individual rests with the police force concerned. As announced by the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, the right hon. Member for Epsom Civil Disorder and Ewell (Chris Grayling), on 29 October 2013, Official Report, columns 44-45WS, the Government intends Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for the shortly to carry out a review of all out of court disposals. Home Department what the total number of claims This review will include community resolutions and made by businesses in relation to the August 2011 riots consider the role that victims’ views play in the process. 541W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 542W
Council of Europe Convention On Preventing and Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Combating Violence Against Women and Domestic Home Department whether her Department has Violenc introduced realistic scenario-based training replicating situations and safe restraint techniques for use on Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for board aircraft for overseas escorts undertaking the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 5 enforced removals of foreign nationals from the UK; September 2013, Official Report, columns 509-10W, on and if she will make a statement. [174609] the Istanbul Convention, what timetable her Department has put in place to ensure that all articles Mr Harper: Following a review of current restraint of the Convention are fully met before ratification. techniques we have asked the National Offender [174382] Management Service (NOMS) to design a bespoke Home Office training package for escorts. The new Norman Baker [holding answer 11 November 2013]: training package will have a focus on specific scenarios The criminalisation of forced marriage is a vital component replicating key stages in the removals process, most of the UK’s compliance with the articles of the Istanbul importantly aircraft. In January 2013 an Independent Convention. The Coalition Government has brought Advisory Panel on Non-Compliance Management were forward provisions in the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime appointed to provide support in the development of and Policing Bill to criminalise forced marriage and the this package as well as providing independent advice on timetable for ratification of the Convention is subject to the quality and safety of systems of restraint and equipment our receiving Royal Assent for the Bill. proposed by NOMS.
Crimes of Violence Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many removal directions Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the served on immigration detainees have been cancelled Home Department if she will launch a call to end and reset in each of the last five years. [174610] violence against men and boys strategy. [174195] Mr Harper [holding answer 8 November 2013]: The Norman Baker: The coalition Government takes the information is not held centrally and could be obtained issue of male victims of domestic violence and abuse only at disproportionate cost. seriously. We have always been clear in our definition that domestic violence and abuse is gender neutral, and Domestic Violence that while the majority of incidents of domestic violence and abuse are against women and girls, men and boys Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the can also suffer accordingly. That is why the actions set Home Department how many men have been victims out in the Violence Against Women and Girls Action of domestic homicide in each police force area in each Plan apply to both men and women. of the last five years. [174194] Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps her Department is Norman Baker: The available information relates to taking to protect men from domestic and sexual crimes recorded by the police on the Homicide Index in violence. [174199] England and Wales. The ONS publication “Focus on Violent Crime and Norman Baker: The Government’s Violence Against Sexual Offences”, available at: Women and Girls Action Plan also includes actions to http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/ protect men from domestic and sexual violence, such as focus-on-violent-crime/stb-focus-on--violent-crime-and- funding the men’s advice line and Broken Rainbow sexual-offences-2011-12.html helplines. We are committed to supporting this vital provides figures on the number of homicides where service for male victims. In addition, we will be reviewing the victim’s relationship to the principal suspect was reports from projects funded by the Males Victims partner or ex-partner in England and Wales. Information Fund to identify lessons that can be shared more widely. by police force area and where the victim was male is given in the following table. Deportation Offences currently recorded as domestic homicide1, 2 for male victims by police force area, 2007-08 to 2011-12, England and Wales Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Number of male victims Home Department how her Department checks the Police force accreditation process for detainee custody officers who area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 work as overseas escorts during the enforced removal Avon and 00 1 2 1 of foreign nationals from the UK. [174608] Somerset Bedfordshire 0 0 1 0 1 Mr Harper: Detainee Custody Officers who are employed British 00 0 0 0 Transport as overseas escorts are accredited by Home Office Police Immigration Enforcement in accordance with Detention Cambridgeshire 0 1 1 0 0 Services Order 4/2011 which is available at: Cheshire 0 3 0 1 0 http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ Cleveland 0 0 0 0 0 policyandlaw/detention-services-orders/ Cumbria 1 0 0 0 0 —Detainee custody officer certification Derbyshire 0 2 0 0 0 543W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 544W
Offences currently recorded as domestic homicide1, 2 for male victims by police states and (b) the UK will inform the Council and the force area, 2007-08 to 2011-12, England and Wales European Commission that they have implemented the Number of male victims obligations of that Decision. [172090] Police force area 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 James Brokenshire: The Commission published a report Devon and 00000on the implementation of Council Decision 2008/615/JHA Cornwall of 23 June 2008 on the stepping up of cross-border Dorset 0 0 0 0 1 co-operation, particularly in combating terrorism and Durham 0 1 0 0 0 cross-border crime (the ‘Prüm Decision’) in December Dyfed Powys 0 0 0 0 0 2012. This report includes details of steps taken by Essex 1 1 1 0 0 other EU member states to implement the obligations Gloucestershire 0 0 0 0 0 laid down by the Prüm Decisions. Greater 22213 Manchester A full text version of the report is available online at: Gwent 0 0 0 0 1 http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/ Hampshire 0 1 1 0 0 LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2012:0732:FIN:EN:PDF Hertfordshire 1 1 0 0 0 The UK Government has been clear that it cannot Humberside 0 0 1 0 0 fully implement all the requirements of the Prüm Kent 1 0 1 0 2 Decisions before 1 December 2014. As the UK has Lancashire 2 2 0 2 0 indicated that the Prüm Decision is not one of the 35 Leicestershire 0 1 0 0 0 measures which we will seek to rejoin in the national Lincolnshire 0 0 0 1 0 interest, it is important to note that on 1 December London, 000002014 there would be no risk that the UK will be subject City of to infraction proceedings by the European Commission Merseyside 1 1 1 0 0 as a result. Metropolitan 93151 Police Firearms: Crime Norfolk 0 0 1 0 1 North Wales 1 1 1 0 0 North 00110Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for the Yorkshire Home Department if she will set a date to meet the Northamptonshire 0 1 0 0 0 police forces to discuss the expansion of data collection Northumbria 1 0 0 0 0 on the use of (a) illegally held and (b) legally held Nottinghamshire 0 1 0 0 1 firearms in crimes committed in Britain. [175290] South Wales 0 0 1 0 0 South 41000Damian Green: The Home Office is currently considering Yorkshire whether the current data collection should be expanded Staffordshire 0 1 0 0 1 and will discuss with the police at the appropriate point. Suffolk 0 0 0 2 0 Surrey 0 1 0 2 1 Illegal Immigrants Sussex 0 0 0 0 0 Thames 01001Pamela Nash: To ask the Secretary of State for the Valley Home Department how many illegal migrants to the Warwickshire 1 0 0 1 1 UK were found entering the country on freight in each West Mercia 1 0 1 1 0 year since 2010. [168097] West 13120 Midlands Mr Harper: The breakdown of information requested West 33201 Yorkshire is not held centrally and could be obtained only at Wiltshire 0 0 0 1 0 disproportionate cost. England and 30 32 19 22 17 Wales Immigrants: Detainees 1 As at 1 November 2012; figures are subject to revision as cases are dealt with by the police and by the courts, or as further information becomes available. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2 Offences where the victim’s relationship to principal suspect is ‘spouse (including civil partner), cohabiting partner, boyfriend/girlfriend, ex-spouse/ Home Department if she will publish the number and ex-cohabiting partner/ex-boyfriend/girlfriend, adulterous relationship, lover’s locations of individuals held in prison solely for spouse or emotional rival’ are shown. immigration purposes as part of the quarterly Source: Homicide Index, Home Office. immigration statistics. [175068] EU Justice and Home Affairs Mr Harper [holding answer 11 November 2013]: Currently we do not publish data relating to the number Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for and locations of individuals held in prison solely for the Home Department which EU member states have immigration purposes. However, the quarterly immigration informed the Council and the European Commission statistics are kept under review, taking into account the that they have implemented the obligations laid down needs of users and burdens on suppliers and producers in Council Decision 2008/615/JHA; and which of those in line with the Code of Practice for Official Statistics. member states have indicated that they will apply that The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual Decision immediately in their relations with other statistics on the number of people detained in the member states that have given the same indication; and United Kingdom for immigration purposes, within what her assessment is of when (a) other EU member Immigration Statistics. The data on people in detention 545W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 546W are readily available in the latest release, “Immigration Police and Crime Commissioners Statistics: April to June 2013”, from the gov.uk website: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office/ Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of series/immigration-statistics-quarterly-release State for the Home Department what the powers and Published figures on people detained in the United responsibilities of Police and Crime Panels are. [174646] Kingdom solely under Immigration Act powers include those held in short term holding facilities, pre departure Damian Green [holding answer 8 November 2013]: accommodation and immigration removal centres. Figures Police and crime panels (PCPs) perform a scrutiny exclude those held in police cells, Prison Service function, providing both support and challenge to police establishments, short term holding rooms at ports and and crime commissioners (PCCs) on the exercise of airports (for less than 24 hours) and those recorded as their functions. The powers and responsibilities of PCPs detained under both criminal and immigration powers are set out in sections 28 to 30 and 32 to 33 of the Police and their dependants. Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011, and there is further relevant provision in schedules 1, 3, 5, 7 and 8 to Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Act. These give PCPs the power to: Home Department pursuant to the answer of scrutinise all decisions or actions of the PCC; 5 November 2013, Official Report, column 116W, on require the PCC to provide information and answer questions; migrants: detainees, how many individuals held in make reports and recommendations on the police and crime prisons solely for immigration purposes had been held plan and annual report, of which the PCC must take account and for (i) less than six months, (ii) between six and respond; 12 months, (iii) between one and two years and (iv) hold public meetings to discuss the annual report and to longer than two years; and if she will provide a question the PCC on its contents; breakdown of the prisons in which individuals held carry out confirmation hearings when a PCC proposes to solely for immigration purposes were held. [175110] appoint a new deputy PCC, a chief executive or a chief finance officer; Mr Harper [holding answer 11 November 2013]: The work to resolve non-criminal complaints made about the PCC; information requested can be provided only at ask Her Majesty’s inspectors of constabulary for a professional disproportionate cost. view when the PCC intends to dismiss a chief constable; publish all reports and recommendations that it makes; Immigration Controls suspend the relevant PCC if he/she is charged with an imprisonable offence which carries a maximum term of two years or more; Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for appoint an acting PCC if the elected one cannot carry out their the Home Department if she will implement a role eg for health reasons, or following suspension, resignation or disqualification. same-day checking service for employers. [174682] PCPs also have the power to veto (with a two-thirds Mr Harper [holding answer 8 November 2013]: There majority) the PCC’s proposed policing precept (the are no current plans to reduce the response time for the element of council tax that is raised for policing) and employer checking service to a same day service. the appointment of a chief constable. Our current service standard is five working days and Police: Information we often exceed this. Currently our year to date response rate is 3.69 days. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what guidance she has issued on Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for the police information notices and circumstances in which Home Department how many private flights arriving in they are appropriate. [175118] the UK are not checked on arrival by UK Border Force staff. [175020] Damian Green [holding answer 11 November 2013]: The use of harassment warnings, also known as police Mr Harper [holding answer 11 November 2013]: Border information notices (PINs), is an operational matter for Force risk assess 100% of flights notified to us and seek the police. Guidance on investigating stalking and to deploy to all high priority flights. Between April and harassment, including using PINs, was issued by the August this year Border Force met 98% of high priority Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) and the flights. We do not hold data on how many arriving National Policing Improvement Agency in 2009. private flights were not notified to us. Police: Lancashire Members: Correspondence Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department with reference to the 2013 Spending Home Department when she intends to reply to Review, what the change in allocated funding for correspondence from the hon. Member for Central Lancashire Police Authority has been in 2013-14; and Ayrshire of 1 July, 16 September and 9 October 2013 what assessment she has made of the effect of that on the EgyptAir flight that landed on 15 June 2013 and change on the effectiveness of policing in Preston the five Syrian passengers it contained who were constituency. [174946] seeking asylum. [175138] Damian Green: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, my Mr Harper: I wrote to the hon. Member on 11 November right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne)’s 2013. spending round announcement on 26 June concerned 547W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 548W decisions on Government funding for the financial year Police: Wales 2015-16 only. It therefore had no impact on 2013-14 police budgets. Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Central Government funding for the Lancashire police the Home Department (1) what criteria her and crime commissioner in 2013-14 was set out in the Department used to assess the request made by South Home Office Police Grant Report 2013-14, laid on Wales Police in 2012 for National, International and 4 February 2013 and accompanying written ministerial Capital City funding; [175177] statement, 4 February 2013, Official Report, columns (2) for what reasons the Minister of State for 3-6WS. Policing and Criminal Justice declined the request In 2013-14, core funding to the Lancashire police and made by South Wales police in 2012 for National, crime commissioner from the Home Office is £198 International and Capital City funding and other million. additional funding to recognise the challenges of As a result of spending round 2013, the Home Office policing Cardiff as a capital city; [175184] has committed to resource savings of 6.1 % in 2015-16. (3) when the Minister for Policing and Criminal However, central Government revenue funding to the Justice last discussed funding for (a) South Wales police has been prioritised, and will reduce by 4.9% in police and (b) the policing of Cardiff with the South real terms in 2015-16. Wales Police and Crime Commissioner. [175205] Provisional funding allocations for 2014-15 will be laid in Parliament later in the year as part of the annual Damian Green: In February 2012, the Chief Constable police funding settlement process. of South Wales police submitted a formal request for additional funding based on the fact that they police the Police: Northern Ireland capital city of Wales. The former Policing Minister concluded that Cardiff did not face the same challenges Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for the and responsibilities as those that come with policing Home Department how many non-PSNI officers have London. been deployed in Northern Ireland in each of the last The reasons to support this were as follows: three years; and from which constabulary each such Although Cardiff is a busy city with a large number of visitors, officer was deployed. [174780] events, sporting fixtures and protests, these factors are not unique to Cardiff. Many other cities such as Manchester and Birmingham Damian Green: The deployment of officers by police have higher numbers of visitors, similar sized sports venues and forces in England and Wales is an operational matter see regular protests on a range of issues. for those forces, under mutual aid arrangements. The National and International Capital City Grant (NICC) The Home Office does not routinely collect this reflects the additional burdens placed on the metropolitan police. information for England and Wales. Figures for Scotland These include the seat of Government, a permanent Royal presence are a matter for the Scottish Government. and significant numbers of events that require policing including a multitude of international conferences such as the G20. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for the The application referenced the fact that the Lothian and Home Department how many members of the Garda Borders force receives an additional payment for policing Edinburgh. The Home Secretary does not have responsibility for policing in Siochana have been seconded to work in police forces Scotland and therefore this is a matter for the Scottish Government. in Great Britain in each year since 2010. [174781] The application also referred to the challenges that South Wales faces in relation to the Olympics and counter-terrorism. Damian Green: The Home Office does not hold this South Wales were provided with additional funding for the Olympics information for England and Wales. Figures for Scotland and they also receive funds for counter-terrorism policing. are a matter for the Scottish Government. I last discussed funding for South Wales police on a Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for the visit to Wales in January 2013. Home Department how many Police Service of Safety Belts Northern Ireland officers have been seconded to work in police forces in Great Britain since 2010. [174782] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: The Home Office does not hold this Home Department how many police forces permit information for England and Wales. Figures for Scotland persons found guilty of an offence under section 14(3) are a matter for the Scottish Government. of the Road Traffic Act 1988 to attend a driving safety course paid for by the offender that includes Police: Sussex instruction on the benefits of wearing seat belts in lieu of a fine; and if she will make a statement. [174532] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) how many police information Damian Green: The police do not give offenders a notices have been issued by Sussex Police in each of the fine as these can only be given by a court after a person last three years; [175065] has been found guilty beyond reasonable doubt. 19 police (2) how many people have been issued with a police forces now offer the “Your Belt—Your Life” seat belt information notices by Sussex Police in each of the last educational course within the national driver offender three years which led to a subsequent charge of retraining scheme (NDORS) that covers poor driving harassment. [175119] behaviours or attitudes. Details of courses offered outside the scheme are not held centrally. It is a matter for the Damian Green [holding answer 11 November 2013]: police as to who provides a course and for police to The information requested is not recorded centrally. decide if they wish to participate in the scheme. 549W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 550W
Vetting Natural England carry out monitoring to ensure that the culls are being conducted in accordance with the Best Practice Guidance: Monitoring activity levels are Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the not weather dependent. Home Department how many (a) standard and (b) enhanced disclosure Criminal Records Bureau checks In the winter, the closed season for cage trapping have been applied for in each of the last five years. (which starts at the beginning of December) aims to [173931] protect trapped badgers from poor weather conditions. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for James Brokenshire [holding answer 5 November 2013]: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether cage The following table contains the number of applications trapping for badgers in the two pilot areas was for standard and enhanced disclosure checks for each of suspended due to severe weather on 27 and 28 October the last five years. 2013. [175289] Standard Enhanced George Eustice: Cage trapping was not formally 2009 345,244 3,924,668 suspended for any periods during the pilot culls. It is for 2010 187,985 4,031,334 the cull companies to decide how they deploy cage 2011 240,103 3,780,345 trapping during the cull, provided it is carried out in 2012 272,731 3,862,417 accordance with best practice Guidance: 2013 181,076 2,813,254 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/69544/pb13715-badger-shooting-cage- trapping.pdf and in accordance with the conditions of their licence. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS British Overseas Territories
Bovine Tuberculosis Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many applications for Darwin Plus funding were received in Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for the (i) first and (ii) second application rounds; and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans he what the total financial value was of applications has for the allocation of the £32 million EU fund for received in each round. [175034] bovine tuberculosis eradication; and if he will make a statement. [175143] Dan Rogerson: In 2012, 42 eligible Darwin Plus applications were received totalling £7,471,534 (ranging George Eustice: The EU lays down rules for its financial from £8,000 to £1.3 million). In 2013, 50 applications contribution for animal disease eradication programmes were received totalling £8,383,462.19 (ranging from £34,000 including details of eligible expenses and the maximum to £400,000). contributions payable. Commission Implementing Decision 2012/761/EU Common Agricultural Policy enables lump sum contributions for domestic animals sampled, tuberculin tests, gamma-interferon tests, Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for bacteriological tests and a contribution to the costs of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions compensation payable to owners for slaughtered animals, he has had with Ministers for Agriculture in the for approved bovine tuberculosis eradication programmes devolved administrations about implementation of the in 2013. common agricultural policy, and the allocation of The Decision enables the UK to receive a maximum budgets to each administration; and if he will make a financial contribution of EUR 31,800,000 for its bovine statement. [175161] tuberculosis eradication programme in 2013. Following claim in 2014, any reimbursement received will be used George Eustice: On 8 November, the Secretary of to offset the devolved costs of bovine tuberculosis sampling, State announced the Government’s decision on the testing and compensation already incurred by DEFRA, allocation of the common agricultural policy (CAP) the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. budget for the period 2014-20 within the UK. Before making a decision on how to divide the funds between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, he Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for sought and considered the views of agriculture Ministers Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how the licence in each of the devolved Administrations. Although the conditions for using cage traps on badgers for the pilot implementation of the CAP regulations in Scotland, culls are monitored in severe weather; and whether Wales and Northern Ireland is a matter for their respective such cage trappings are suspended due to the risk of Governments, the Secretary of State has extended an exposing badgers to extreme weather. [175288] offer to work with the devolved Administrations as implementation is taken forward across the UK. George Eustice: Requirements for cage trapping are set out in best practice guidance, which is available here: Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions attachment_data/file/69544/pb13715-badger-shooting-cage- he has had with the National Farmers’ Union, NFU trapping.pdf Scotland, the Farmers’ Union of Wales and the Ulster 551W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 552W
Farmers’ Union on (a) the implementation of the Sky Lanterns Common Agricultural Policy from 2015 and (b) the allocation of the budget in that respect. [175162] Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what George Eustice: The Secretary of State for Environment, representations he has received on the banning of Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Chinese lanterns; [175131] Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), regularly (2) if he will make it his policy to ban the use of meets with a range of farming stakeholders including Chinese lanterns. [175132] the National Farmers’ Union. The most recent stakeholder meeting was held in September and was focused on how George Eustice: We have received a number of the next CAP should be implemented in England. representations from farming and conservation groups The implementation of the CAP regulations in Scotland, arguing that sky lanterns should be banned. Wales and Northern Ireland is a matter for respective Because of these concerns, we commissioned an devolved Governments. independent study to identify and assess the impacts Before making a decision on the allocation of the and risks associated with lantern use. Published in May UK’s CAP funding, the Secretary of State and Ministers 2013, the study concluded that any widespread risk of have listened to the views of stakeholders across the injury to cattle or damage to the environment is low. UK, including the National Farmers’ Union, NFU We have recently issued safety guidance for the use of Scotland, the Farmers’ Union of Wales and the Ulster sky lanterns and we would urge people to follow it. Farmers’ Union. We have also sought and considered However, the evidence available at this stage falls short the view of agriculture Ministers in each of the devolved of the level required to justify a ban. Administrations. Water Charges Food Banks Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Dame Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he intends has made of the number of people who pay lower to publish the results of the research project on the water bills as a result of the WaterSure tariff. [174674] provision of food aid in the UK. [174893] Dan Rogerson: In England 71,304 households pay George Eustice: DEFRA has commissioned research lower water bills as a result of the WaterSure tariff. to review publically available evidence on the landscape of food aid provision and access in the UK. All Government-funded research projects are required to go through the necessary review and quality assurance DEFENCE processes prior to publication. Once this process is Aircraft Carriers complete, the conclusions of this work will be made available on the Government’s website. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what design features are incorporated into the Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers to allow for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he intends shipborne rolling vertical landing. [174799] to publish the Warwick University study on the use of food banks. [175155] Mr Dunne: The principal elements of the shipborne rolling vertical landing (SRVL)system, to be incorporated George Eustice: DEFRA has commissioned research into the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers, include to review publically available evidence on the landscape a visual landing aid system, glide path cameras and of food aid provision and access in the UK. software modifications to the information displays in All Government-funded research projects are required the aft island’s flying control centre. to go through the necessary review and quality assurance processes prior to publication. Once this process is Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for complete, the conclusions of this work will be made Defence what assessment he has made of the ability of available on the Government’s website. the Queen Elizabeth Class carriers to conduct shipborne rolling vertical landing operations with the Qualifications Joint Strike Fighter in moderate to heavy seas. [174800]
Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dunne: The Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many will be able to conduct shipborne rolling vertical landings people employed by his Department hold a (a) in a wide range of environmental conditions, including bachelor’s, (b) master’s and (c) PhD-level degree in moderate to heavy sea states. computer science; and if he will make a statement. [175367] Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the number of Dan Rogerson: Core DEFRA does not hold information people required to maintain the second proposed about the qualifications of staff centrally and therefore aircraft carrier whilst it is baseported; and what this question could be answered only at disproportionate estimate he has made of such number if that carrier is cost. mothballed. [174936] 553W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 554W
Mr Dunne: The Queen Elizabeth (QE) Class Support Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Development Phase is expected to commence later in how many A and B vehicles were issued through 2013, and will consider a range of options to produce a Ashchurch to Afghanistan in each year between 2002 detailed support proposal, including manpower and 2013; and if he will make a statement. [174574] requirements, for approval around the middle of this decade. The initial capability support solution will be in Mr Dunne: The numbers of A and B vehicles issued place for the arrival of the first QE Class carrier, HMS through Ashchurch to Afghanistan from 2009 are supplied QUEEN ELIZABETH, in early 2017. Both QE class in the following table: carriers will be baseported in Portsmouth but a decision on the employment of the second carrier will be taken Number at the next Strategic Defence and Security Review in Financial year A vehicles B vehicles 2015. 2009-10 50 685 Armed Forces: Housing 2010-11 31 685 2011-12 14 96 Mr Donaldson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012-13 0 2 Defence if he will publish details of the sums received 2013 to date 0 3 for the sale of surplus army housing at Dog Kennel Lane, Lisburn. [175249] Information on the number of vehicles issued prior Dr Murrison: The Ministry of Defence has sold no to 2009 is not held. properties on Dog Kennel Lane. However, it did sell properties on Dog Kennel Close Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and Dog Kennel Crescent in March 2013 for £1.4 million. how much individual covered vehicle storage space is available at (a) RAF Warminster, (b) RAF Lyneham, Armed Forces: Vehicles (c) Ashchurch, (d) Donnington and (e) Warminster; and if he will make a statement. [174575] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether all A&Bvehicles back-loaded through the Mr Dunne: Covered vehicle storage at Ministry of reverse supply chain to (a) RAF Warminster, (b) Defence Lyneham totals 24,964 square metres and at RAF Lyneham, (c) Ashchurch, (d) Donnington and Ashchurch totals 325,748 square metres. (e) Warminster are held in short-term storage to comply with AESP 2300-A-401-031; and if he will No vehicles are stored at Warminster or Donnington. make a statement. [174572] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Dunne: The Army Equipment Support Publication what the frequency is of the regular visual inspection of 2300-A-401-013 defines the short-term storage procedures A&Bvehicles stored at (a) RAF Warminster, (b) and minimum standards for the storage, maintenance, RAF Lyneham, (c) Ashchurch, (d) Donnington and inspection and monitoring of automotive vehicles, for (e) Warminster; and if he will make a statement. periods which are not to exceed 12 months. [174578] All A, B, and Protected Mobility vehicles returning from Operation Herrick are held in short term storage at either the Herrick Exchange Point at Ministry of Mr Dunne: Vehicles stored at Ministry of Defence Defence Lyneham or at Ashchurch in accordance with Lyneham and Ashchurch are visually inspected on a Army Equipment Support Publication 2300-A-401-013. regular basis for signs of deterioration due to age or storage conditions. Initially this should be on a weekly No vehicles have been back-loaded through the reverse basis; storage conditions will dictate subsequent inspection supply chain for short-term storage to Donnington or intervals. As a general rule, all equipment will be left Warminster, although some vehicles held at MOD Lyneham alone as much as possible during the storage term. may be sent to Warminster for repair and maintenance before being issued to units or returned to storage. No vehicles are stored at Warminster or Donnington.
Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many A and B vehicles were back-loaded through howmanyA&Bvehicles are currently (a) stored the reverse supply chain to (a) RAF Warminster, (b) under cover in an unheated hangar and (b) outside in RAF Lyneham, (c) Ashchurch, (d) Donnington and the open at (i) RAF Warminster, (ii) RAF Lyneham, (e) Warminster from Afghanistan in 2012 and 2013; (iii) Ashchurch, (iv) Donnington and (v) Warminster; and if he will make a statement. [174573] and if he will make a statement. [174579] Mr Dunne: The reverse supply chain has back-loaded the following vehicles from Afghanistan in 2012: Mr Dunne: Ashchurch has 1,277 A and B vehicles 29 A vehicles and 93 B vehicles to Ashchurch. stored under cover in a controlled humidity environment, The reverse supply chain has back-loaded the following 4,445 A and B vehicles stored under cover in unheated vehicles from Afghanistan in 2013: hangars and 485 vehicles stored uncovered as stock pending disposal. 20 A vehicles, 146 B vehicles and 167 protected mobility vehicles to Lyneham. Ministry of Defence Lyneham has 20 A vehicles, 146 Two A vehicles and 72 B vehicles to Ashchurch. B vehicles and 167 Protected Mobility vehicles stored No vehicles have been back-loaded through the reverse under cover in unheated hangars. supply chain to Donnington or Warminster. No vehicles are stored at Warminster or Donnington. 555W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 556W
Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Anna Soubry: Members of the armed forces based in whether any (a) Defence Council instructions, (b) Northern Ireland have access to military mental health standard operating procedures and (c) local services that follow the same model as those available in regulations issued in (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) 2012 other parts of the United Kingdom. These are configured override AESP2300-A-401-031; and if he will make a to provide community-based mental health care in line statement. [174580] with national best practice, providing assessment and treatment in line with the guidelines and standards set Mr Dunne: Defence Council instructions, standing by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence operating procedures or local regulations do not override (NICE) and the National Service Frameworks. Army Equipment Support Publication 2300-A-401-013. Mental health care is available from a range of medical There is a formal change procedure that is used when facilities, starting with local service primary care facilities. amendments are required to Army Equipment Support Where necessary, patients in Northern Ireland can be Publication 2300-A-401-013. referred to the military operated Department of Community Mental Health (DCMH) at Lisburn, near Belfast, which Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence provides out-patient mental health care. The DCMH whether a detailed stockholding assessment has been mental health team comprises psychiatrists and mental carried out for the storage of military vehicles health nurses, with access to clinical psychologists and following withdrawal from (a) Afghanistan and (b) mental health social workers. A wide range of psychiatric Germany; and if he will make a statement. [174873] and psychological treatments are available, including medication, psychological therapies, and environmental Mr Dunne: An initial assessment was conducted at adjustment where appropriate. In-patient care, when the end of 2012 of the size of the vehicle fleet that necessary, is provided in specialised psychiatric units would be required to equip the new Army 2020 structure. under a contract with a partnership involving eight This took account of vehicles redeploying from Afghanistan NHS mental health trusts. and Germany. The assessment included a requirement to store around 7,000 vehicles in a controlled humidity Charities Act 2006 environment. Work continues to determine the exact storage requirement and is scheduled to be complete by the middle of 2014. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what reports his Department has laid before Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence each House of Parliament pursuant to section 70(9) of how many vehicles held by his Department offer the Charities Act 2006 in 2012-13. [172933] nuclear, biological and chemical protection; which Defence Support Group sites are able to provide Anna Soubry: The information requested is contained inspection and testing capability; and if he will make a in the Ministry of Defence’s Annual Report and Accounts 2012-13, page 151, paragraph 26.6 which is available on statement. [174878] the Gov.uk website at the following link: Mr Dunne: I am withholding information on the https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mod-annual- number of vehicles that offer protection against chemical, report-and-accounts-201213 biological, radiological and nuclear (CBRN) threats as See also pages 36 and 37 which include specific references its disclosure would, or would be likely to, prejudice the to some of the Department’s work with charities. capability, effectiveness or security of the armed forces. The Defence Support Group sites at Ashchurch, Defence: Procurement Bovington and Donnington are able to provide inspection and testing capability for vehicles that have CBRN Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for protection. Defence which equipment programmes currently have a cost overrun risk ratio of 90 per cent for the public Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence purse and 10 per cent for the contractor. [175048] whether a controlled humidity environment is available for the storage of vehicles at (a) RAF Warminster, (b) Mr Dunne: The information is not held centrally and RAF Lyneham, (c) MOD Ashchurch, (d) MOD could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Donnington and (e) Warminster; and if he will make a statement. [175333] Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft Mr Dunne: Currently only Ashchurch has a controlled humidity environment available for the storage of vehicles. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for An assessment is under way to consider what additional Defence what assessment he has made of the Notice of controlled humidity environment storage capacity is Concern from the Deputy Inspector General of the US required to meet Future Force 2020. Department of Defense dated 22 October 2012 regarding the visit to BAE Systems in Samlesbury in connection with the Joint Strike Fighter Programme. Army: Northern Ireland [174797]
Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Dunne: The US Department of Defense Inspector what his assessment is of the adequacy of the treatment General routinely undertakes quality assurance assessments for mental health issues available to soldiers in of UK contractors working on US defence contracts. Northern Ireland. [173660] The aim of the inspection is to ensure that contractors 557W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 558W are compliant with the agreed processes and procedures, Number of Number of DSG Number of with corrective actions put in place where this is not the Financial year accidents staff Agency staff case. Ashchurch The BAE Systems assessment was completed in 2012 and highlighted a number of non-compliances which 2011-12 12 12 0 are all being rectified as part of normal routine work. 2012-13 13 12 1 2013-14 3 3 10 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Figures as at 31 October 2013 Defence what assessment he has made of the Notice of Concern from the Deputy Inspector General of the US Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Department of Defense dated 20 November 2012 whether access to a railway line is available at (a) RAF regarding the visit to Honeywell Aerospace in Yeovil in Warminster, (b) RAF Lyneham, (c) Ashchurch, (d) connection with the Joint Strike Fighter Programme. Donnington and (e) Warminster; and if he will make a [174798] statement. [174911]
Mr Dunne: The US Department of Defense Inspector Mr Dunne: Access to a railway line is available at General routinely undertakes quality assurance assessments Ashchurch, Donnington and Defence Support Group of UK contractors working on US defence contracts. Warminster. The aim of the inspection is to ensure that contractors There is no access to a railway line at Ministry of are compliant with the agreed processes and procedures, Defence Lyneham. with corrective actions put in place where this is not the case. The Honeywell assessment was completed in 2012 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and highlighted a number of non-compliances which how far it is to the nearest motorway access point from are all being rectified as part of normal routine work. (a) RAF Warminster, (b) RAF Lyneham, (c) Ashchurch, (d) Donnington and (e) Warminster; and Kawasaki Heavy Industries if he will make a statement. [174912]
Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dunne: The information requested is provided in Defence which Royal Navy vessels will use gas turbine the following table: parts from Kawasaki Heavy Industries. [175120] Approximate Mr Dunne: Gas turbine parts supplied by Kawasaki MOD site Nearest motorway distance in miles Heavy Industries (KHI) are not currently in use on any RAF Lyneham M4, junction 16 6 Royal Navy ships. No decisions about whether to use parts supplied by KHI in the future have been taken; Ashchurch M5, junction 9 1 such decisions will be taken at the appropriate time. Donnington M54, junction 7 5 Warminster M4, junction 17 24 Military Bases
Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many recorded accidents there were at (a) how much rental income was earned from buildings at Donnington, (b) Warminster and (c) Ashfield by (i) each defence support group site in each of the last five Defence Support Group staff and (ii) agency workers years; and if he will make a statement. [174914] in the last three years; and if he will make a statement. [174880] Mr Dunne: The Defence Support Group derived rental income in each of the last five financial years (FY) from Mr Dunne: Ashfield is not a recognised Defence the sites outlined in the following table. Support Group (DSG) location therefore my response includes figures for DSG Ashchurch. £000 Recorded accidents by DSG employees and agency Financial year personnel in the last three financial years (FY) at DSG site 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Donnington, Warminster and Ashchurch are as follows: Sealand 78 330 289 272 318 Donnington 2 2 2 2 2 Number of Number of DSG Number of Financial year accidents staff Agency staff Colchester 2 2 2 2 2 Warminster 1 1 1 1 1 Donnington Catterick 1 1 1 1 1 2011-12 144 144 0 DSG 84 336 295 278 324 2012-13 102 95 7 total 2013-14 54 52 12 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Warminster which defence support group sites have the capacity to 2011-12 56 56 0 inspect and test nuclear biological and chemical clean 2012-13 84 81 3 air supply in military vehicles; what training is required 2013-14 36 32 14 for staff to carry out such work; and if he will make a statement. [174916] 559W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 560W
Mr Dunne: Defence Support Group (DSG) Ashchurch, Works Bovington and Donnington all have the capacity presently to inspect and test nuclear, biological and chemical August 2009 Retention of stockpiled excavated clean air supply in military vehicles. All DSG employees material and depositing of new undertaking this work are suitably qualified technicians material to form two spectator working to required established procedures. embankments adjacent to existing training and recreation area September 2011 Demolition of building 51 Military Bases: Northern Ireland 1 Works not carried out.
Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many cases of self-harm by civilian staff took if he will set out the role of the Defence Infrastructure place in military establishments in Northern Ireland in Organisation and Logistic Commodities and Services each of the last five years; and if he will make a in planning for any closure of Ashchurch; and if he will statement; [173411] make a statement. [174877] (2) how many cases of self-harm by civilian staff took place in military establishments in Northern Mr Dunne: The role of the Defence Infrastructure Ireland between 1 April and 30 September 2013. Organisation is to provide for any reprovision of facilities [173412] required and in due course to dispose of the Ashchurch site. Anna Soubry: I will answer shortly. Logistic Commodities and Services are responsible Substantive answer from Anna Soubry to Margaret Ritchie: for managing the Ashchurch site. The Ministry of Defence is unaware of any such cases having occurred. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 22 April 2013, Official Military Decorations Report, column 1265W, on defence support group, whether his Department has developed a business case Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for for the sale of Defence Support Group Ashchurch; and Defence if he will make it his policy to reduce the if he will make a statement. [174915] qualifying period for the General Service Medal Cyprus Clasp from 120 days; and if he will make a Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence is in early discussions statement. [173446] which may lead to the appointment of a development partner. At this moment in time, no business case has Anna Soubry: The qualification period for the General been developed. Service Medal Clasp Cyprus is one of a number of issues that is being considered further by Sir John Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Holmes’ independent medal review. As this is an pursuant to the answer of 22 April 2013, Official independent review it is not possible for me to pre-empt Report, column 1265W, on defence support group, the outcome. whether a contamination survey has found evidence of asbestos at Defence Support Group Ashchurch; and if MOD Ashchurch he will make a statement. [174917]
Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Dunne: The last Ashchurch land quality assessment what planning applications have been made in relation completed in 2012 identified three locations containing to the Ashchurch site in each year since 2005; and if he asbestos fibres. will make a statement. [174875] The asbestos fibres are buried and therefore the risk Mr Dunne: Planning applications made at Ashchurch to site users is low and there is no effect on day to day since 2005 are shown in the following table: operations.
Works Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for September 2005 Replacement of asbestos sheet roof, Tewkesbury of 15 April 2013, Official Report, column gutters and downpipes on buildings 285W, on MOD Ashchurch, what recent estimate he 111 and 150 has made of the costs of (a) physical movements, (b) January 2005 Construction of one temporary portakabin extra training, (c) redundancy payments and (d) any other items of expenditure as a result of moving January 2007 Two-storey extension to modular office building operations carried out at Ashchurch; and if he will June 2009 Erection of two security bunds and make a statement. [174918] associated landscaping September 2008 Installation of 34 new and 13 Mr Dunne: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I replacement eight metre lighting gave on 16 April 2013, Official Report, columns 284-85W, columns to my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury August 2009 Erection of two security bunds on (Mr Robertson). the eastern side of the main entrance August 2009 Erection of security bund parallel to The estimate of the cost of moving operations carried the western side of Austin road out at Ashchurch remains unchanged. 561W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 562W
MOD Donnington A copy of the Terms of Reference has now been placed in the Library of the House. It is regretted that Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence this was not done earlier. what planning applications have been made in relation to Defence Support Group Donnington in each year Portsmouth Dockyard since 2005; and if he will make a statement. [174876] Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dunne: The Defence Support Group at Donnington Defence (1) what steps his Department has taken to submitted one planning application during the period ensure that Portsmouth Dockyard has the capability to in 2012 to upgrade its ultra high pressure wash facility. supply power to two aircraft carriers in dock simultaneously; [174617] Patrol Craft (2) what steps his Department plans to take to ensure appropriate power supply to two aircraft carriers when Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for simultaneously alongside each other in Portsmouth Defence if he will estimate (a) the total cost of the dockyard. [175167] contract for the three offshore patrol vessels, (b) the unit cost of the vessels and (c) when each vessel will Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence is fully aware enter service. [175045] that the existing National Grid electrical supply arrangements at the dockyard will not support the Mr Dunne: Based on a firm price offer, and subject to potential peak demand of the Queen Elizabeth (QE) main gate approval and contractual agreement, the cost Class and other Royal Navy vessels planned to be based of the contract for the three offshore patrol vessels, in Portsmouth. Options to address this shortfall were including initial spares and support, is expected to be studied in detail during the QE Class Baseport Assessment £348 million. A unit cost for these vessels has not yet Study 2007-09. To meet the needs of the first vessel, a been calculated. On current plans, the contract will be dedicated National Grid supply is currently being procured signed in 2014, with the three vessels entering service to service the QE Class Jetties and will be in place ready between 2017 and 2018. for the arrival of HMS Queen Elizabeth in her home port in early 2017. Further detailed analysis to meet the Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for enduring long-term demand is scheduled for 2014, to Defence whether ocean patrol vessels will be equipped ensure that when the deployment of the second vessel is with (a) Scanter 4100 air search radar and (b) a considered in the Strategic Defence and Security Review hanger capable of housing a Merlin helicopter. [175046] 2015, potential outcomes are not constrained. Mr Dunne: As the Secretary of State for Defence Salvage announced in the House on 6 November 2013, Official Report, column 252, the Ministry of Defence has signed Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence an Agreement in Principle with BAE Systems to order how many on-site exploratory salvage and marine three new Offshore Patrol Vessels for the Royal Navy, operations have occurred in each of the last three years. based on a more capable variant of the River Class, [174675] including a landing deck able to take a Merlin helicopter. This project will be subject to Main Gate approval in Mr Dunne: In the last three years, the Ministry of the coming months and, as is the standard practice with Defence’s salvage and marine operations team has equipment projects, the final design, equipment fit and completed a total of 12 exploratory operations on eight build programme will not finally be set until this main wrecks, two in 2011, four in 2012 and six in 2013. investment decision has been taken. Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Pensions how many vessels (a) worldwide and (b) in UK territorial waters are active concerns for the Salvage Mr Reid: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence and Marine Operations unit. [174676] (1) whether the review of the pension ages of the Ministry of Defence Police and the Defence Fire and Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) Salvage Rescue Service will consider the cost of individuals’ and Marine Operations (S&MO) Team is responsible pension contributions and existing net pay deductions; for the management of approximately 3,500 MOD-owned and if he will make a statement; [173913] legacy wrecks. Of the 807 UK military wrecks for which (2) pursuant to the answer of 9 July 2013, Official we have confirmed locations, 231 lie in UK territorial Report, columns 125-6W, on pensions, when he intends waters and 576 lie elsewhere, either in international to place in the Library the terms of reference for the waters or the territorial waters of other countries. review of the pension ages of the Ministry of Defence Information relating to the locations of the remaining Police and the Defence Fire and Rescue Service. 2,700 MOD-owned legacy wrecks is limited to the [173914] general sea area.
Anna Soubry [holding answer 5 November 2013]: For Sick Leave details of the remit of the review I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Minister for David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Security Strategy, my hon. Friend the Defence how many staff in his Department (a) were Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), on disciplined and (b) had their employment terminated 31 October 2013, Official Report, column 549W, to the as a result of a poor sickness record in each of the last hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle). 12 months. [174645] 563W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 564W
Anna Soubry: The Ministry of Defence does not use Troops under fire from Taliban positions have also disciplinary processes to deal with poor attendance due observed that the mere approach of an aircraft is often to sickness; measures are taken under ’restoring efficiency’ sufficient to cause the Taliban to break off the engagement policies, which can culminate in dismissal. Some 148 and withdraw. individuals had their employment terminated in the period November 2012 to October 2013 due to absence Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for related to their sickness record. An additional 31 individuals Defence pursuant to the answer of 15 October 2013, were dismissed for reasons of poor attendance in which Official Report, column 632W, on unmanned aerial sickness may have been a factor. vehicles, (1) whether the legal advice provided to RAF personnel operating the Reaper Piloted Aircraft Territorial Army System include UK international humanitarian and human rights obligations; [R] [174297] Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (2) in which other locations legal advice is provided what progress has been made by Operation Fortify in to the operating personnel of unmanned aircraft relation to its quarterly targets for number of recruits. systems. [R] [174298] [174088] Mr Francois: As I stated in my previous answer, all Anna Soubry: [holding answer 5 November 2013]: UK armed forces personnel receive legal briefing during Following the publication of the White Paper “Reserves their pre-deployment training. They also have access to in the Future Force 2020: Valuable and Valued” on legal advice which will include advice on international 3 July 2013 (CM 8655), the conditions are now in place humanitarian law and human rights law obligations, as to grow the Army Reserve to 30,000 by the end of 2018 appropriate. as part of a fully integrated Army. In support of this; we are investing £1.8 billion, in training, support and Warships equipment for the reserves over the next ten years. To further help kick start Army Reserve recruitment, John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for the Army has put in place a series of measures under Defence pursuant to the statement of 6 November Op FORTIFY, including increasing the infrastructure 2013, Official Report, columns 251-54, on Aircraft and staff in the National Recruiting Centre to deal with Carriers and UK Shipbuilding, what assessment he has demand, and launching a pilot scheme to run ‘pre- made of the effect of the decisions on naval vessels on assessment clinics’ regionally for Reservist candidates. the UK’s naval supply chain. [175272] The Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Mr Dunne: The agreement with BAE Systems over Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge the future warship building programme announced by (Mr Hammond), has committed to publishing recruitment the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend figures and trained strength figures in due course. the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge Unmanned Air Vehicles (Mr Hammond), on 6 November 2013, Official Report, columns 251-54, ensures a sustainable future for the UK warship building industry. It will maintain the skills Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for and jobs needed to deliver the programme, both within Defence with reference to the RAF Centre for Air BAE Systems and within a supply chain that extends Power Studies publication, British air and space power across many different areas of the UK. doctrine AP 3000, 4th edition, Counter-Air operations for Psychological Effect, published in 2009, what World War II assessment his Department has made of that publication’s (a) conclusions on the psychological Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for effect of air power and the use of unmanned aerial Defence what recent representations (a) he and (b) vehicles and (b) other conclusions; and when that Ministers in his Department have had in relation to assessment was made. [R] [174261] military chains suspected of being stolen by commissioned officers during World War II. [173796] Mr Francois: AP 3000 Edition 4 (now superseded by Joint Doctrine Publication 0-30) sets out the broad Anna Soubry: There have been no recent representations principles and philosophy for the application of UK to Ministers on this subject other than your letter of Air and Space Power. 17 June 2013 and your Freedom of Information request Using the psychological effect created by Air Power, to the Ministry of Defence on 17 October 2013. it is sometimes possible to deter potential adversaries and avoid bloodshed altogether. No specific study has been conducted by the Ministry of Defence into the TREASURY psychological effects of using RPAS and indeed, it would be difficult to measure such effects quantitatively. Counterfeit Manufacturing: Clothing However, empirical evidence based on observation and post-operational reporting suggests that the presence of Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Chancellor of the an aircraft (manned or remotely piloted) modifies the Exchequer if he will commission an assessment of the behaviour of insurgents such as the Taliban. When cost to the economy of counterfeit bridal wear being aircraft are present, notable reductions in insurgent imported into the UK. [174240] activities (such as the emplacement of improvised explosive devices) are observed with a consequent reduction in Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the threat to both military personnel and civilians. the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. 565W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 566W
I refer the right hon. Member to the answer I gave on The Department’s agreement with the company 6 November 2013, Official Report, column reference contained a range of conditions, principally concerned 232W. with the expenditure to be defrayed under the project As indicated my noble Friend the Parliamentary Under- and the number of jobs to be safeguarded as a result of Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills it. (Viscount Younger of Leckie) would be pleased to The purpose of the grant was to assist in the discuss the issues concerned. modernisation of the company’s chlor-alkali production process at its plant in Runcorn and to protect the jobs Income Tax: Scotland associated with it. Mike Crockart: To ask the Chancellor of the Discussions are currently taking place between Exchequer (1) what estimate he has made of revenue Infrastructure UK and Ineos over a Government guarantee foregone by the Exchequer from taxpayers resident in for a new ethane facility at the Grangemouth petrochemical Scotland due to changes in the income tax threshold in plant, a key part of the company’s plans for the future. each year since 2010; [174707] Regional aid for this proposed investment is a matter (2) what revenue will be forgone by the Exchequer for the Scottish Government. from taxpayers resident in Scotland due to changes in Mortgages the income tax threshold by 25 December 2013. [174714] Chris Ruane: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sajid Javid: The Government increased the personal what the rate of mortgage default was in each (a) allowance for those aged under 65 years between 2010-11 region, (b) local authority area, (c) parliamentary and 2013-14 as shown in table 1 as follows: constituency and (d) town in the latest period for Table 1: Personal allowance (coalition Government formed in May which data is available. [174640] 2010) Personal Allowance (£) Sajid Javid: The Government does not collect or publish data on the rate of mortgage default. A number 2010-11 6,475 of organisations including the Bank of England, the 2011-12 7,475 Financial Conduct Authority, and the Council of Mortgage 2012-13 8,105 Lenders collect data on mortgages, which they make 2013-14 9,440 available publically. An estimated 2.24 million people in Scotland will Payment Systems Regulator benefit by an average of £393 by April 2014 and 200,000 people in Scotland will have been taken out of tax Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the altogether. Exchequer what the process will be for appointing the Ineos new head of the Payment Systems Regulator. [175209]
Mr Watts: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sajid Javid: As set out in the Government amendments whether the Government plans to make any new grants to the Banking Reform Bill, the Financial Conduct available to Ineos to secure the long-term future of its Authority will be responsible for appointing the chair plant in Scotland. [174334] and managing director of the Payment Systems Regulator, subject to HM Treasury approval. The Financial Conduct Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf Authority will set out the exact process for doing this in of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. due course. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the (Danny Alexander), confirmed last month that Exchequer whether the appointment of the head of the Infrastructure UK are in discussions with Ineos over a new Payment Systems Regulator will be subject to a Government guarantee for a new ethane facility at the pre-appointment hearing with his or her attendance at Grangemouth petrochemical plant, a key part of the the Treasury Select Committee. [175210] company’s plans for the future. Regional aid for this proposed investment is a matter Sajid Javid: As set out in the Government amendments for the Scottish Government. to the Banking Reform Bill, the Financial Conduct Authority will be responsible for appointing the chair Mr Watts: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and managing director of the Payment Systems Regulator, what Government grants have been made to Ineos subject to Treasury approval. The Financial Conduct since 1994; and what the (a) value, (b) conditions and Authority will set out the exact process for doing this in (c) purposes of such grants were. [174335] due course. Given that the managing director of the PSR will be an executive, appointed by the FCA, there Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf are no plans for the appointment to be subject to a of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. pre-appointment hearing at the Treasury Select Committee. Ineos Chlor Ltd (now known as Ineos ChlorVinyls Ltd) was awarded a grant of up to £32 million on Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the 16 December 2005 under the Regional Selective Assistance Exchequer what the relationship will be between the scheme. Following minor changes to the project, a total new Payment Systems Regulator and (a) the Financial of £31.2 million was paid over a period up to 21 April Conduct Authority and (b) the Prudential Regulation 2008. Authority. [175211] 567W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 568W
Sajid Javid: As set out in the Government amendments (2) how much his Department paid Sir Michael to the Banking Reform Bill, the Financial Conduct Lyons in (a) salary, (b) fees and (c) related expenses Authority (FCA) is responsible for establishing the for his work on the Public Sector Relocation Review in Payment Systems Regulator (PSR), appointing its Board, 2007. [175109] and approving its budget, annual plan and annual report. There is also provision which allows the PSR to make Nicky Morgan: No Government related reviews into arrangements for any of its functions to be discharged public sector relocation by Sir Michael Lyons were by an officer or member of staff of the FCA. published in either 2007 or 2013. For the 2004 review in to public sector relocation, Sir Michael Lyons received The PSR, FCA and the Prudential Regulation Authority remuneration of £40,000 excluding VAT, and expenses (“PRA”) (and the Bank of England) will be under a of £6,000. duty to co-ordinate the exercise of their relevant functions and to prepare and maintain a memorandum of Tax Avoidance: Luxembourg understanding describing the role of each regulator in Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the relation to the exercise of relevant functions which Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with his relate to matters of common regulator interest and how counterparts in Luxembourg about tax avoidance the regulators intend to comply with their co-ordination schemes involving that country. [174704] duty. The PSR will have powers to share information with both the FCA and the PRA and vice versa. The Sajid Javid: I have regular discussions with counterparts FCA and PRA will have powers to require the PSR to on a range of policy issues, including on the UK’s refrain from planned action, or to require modification efforts to tackle tax avoidance. to that action, where such an action would in their opinion damage the ability of the FCA or PRA to Tax Yields: Water Companies comply with their general duties. Maria Eagle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how much extra revenue he expects to Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the raise from the UK water companies which have Exchequer what powers his Department will have over financial holding vehicles registered in the Cayman the new payment systems regulator. [175215] Islands following the Government’s recent automatic tax information sharing agreement with the Cayman Sajid Javid: As set out in the Government amendments Islands signed on 5 November; [175286] to the Banking Reform Bill, HM Treasury approval will be required for the appointment, or dismissal, of the (2) how much extra revenue he expects to raise from Chair and Managing Director of the new Payment each UK water company following the Government’s Systems Regulator (PSR). HM Treasury will also have recent automatic tax information sharing agreement the power to designate particular payment systems, so with the Cayman Islands signed on 5 November. bringing them within the scope of the PSR’s regulatory [175287] powers. Sajid Javid: There are no estimates available to answer these questions. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the main objectives of the new Taxation payment systems regulator will be. [175216] Ian Murray: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate his Department has made of the number Sajid Javid: As set out in the Government amendments of taxpayers affected by the retrospective tax changes to the Banking Reform Bill, the new Payment Systems introduced in section 58(4) of the Finance Act 2008. Regulator will have three payment systems objectives: [175217] 1. The competition objective—to promote effective competition in: Sajid Javid: UK residents are taxable on their worldwide (a) the market for payment systems, and income wherever it arises—including situations where it (b) the markets for services provided by payment systems, in arises by way of foreign partnerships. Section 58 of the interests of those who use, or are likely to use, services Finance Act 2008 was enacted to help put that beyond provided by payment systems. doubt and in so doing, made clear that a wholly artificial 2. The innovation objective—to promote the development of, tax avoidance scheme involving a foreign partnership and innovation in, payment systems in the interests of those who comprised of foreign trustees did not work. As section 58 use, or are likely to use, services provided by payment systems, retrospectively clarified existing legislation, its introduction with a view to improving the quality, efficiency and economy of had no affect on any taxpayers tax position. HMRC has payment systems. currently identified around 2,000 individuals who used 3. The service-user objective—to ensure that payment systems the avoidance scheme or one of its variants and whose are operated and developed in a way that takes account of, and tax returns are currently under inquiry. promotes, the interests of those who use, or are likely to use, services provided by payment systems. Taxation: Republic of Ireland Austin Mitchell: To ask the Chancellor of the Public Sector Relocation Independent Review Exchequer (1) what steps his Department is taking to prevent companies erroneously claiming that sales were Mr Streeter: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer made in Ireland and not the UK for the purposes of (1) how much Sir Michael Lyons was paid in (a) calculating corporation tax; [174678] salary, (b) other fees, (c) related expenses and (d) (2) if he will seek to renegotiate international tax total for his work on the Public Sector Relocation agreements to prevent companies paying tax in Ireland Review published on 15 March 2013; [174669] on profits and sales made in the UK. [174699] 569W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 570W
Sajid Javid: The UK, along with most major economies made of the number of fixed odds betting terminals in in the world, charges corporation tax on profits not on (a) Birkenhead constituency, (b) the Metropolitan sales or turnover. The UK system is based on internationally Borough of Wirral and (c) the UK. [175242] agreed principles, which determine how much profit each country should tax. However, I cannot comment Mrs Grant: DCMS does not collate figures on the on the tax system in Ireland. number of FOBTs by parliamentary constituency or The UK is committed to multilateral action through local authority area. The Gambling Commission’s most the G20 and OECD to tackle the issue of base erosion recent Industry Statistics publication shows there were and profit shifting (BEPS). The OECD BEPS project 33,319 B2 gaming machines made available for use in has been scrutinising the international tax rules to find Great Britain in the period between October 2011 and where they do not work in today’s modern globalised September 2012. economy. The G8 leaders have confirmed their support for the ongoing G20/OECD work. At the Lough Erne summit Visits Abroad in June they called on the OECD to develop a common tool for multinationals to report to tax authorities where they make their profits and pay taxes around the Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for world. This work is being taken forward as part of the Culture, Media and Sport how many overseas trips, BEPS action plan. and at what total cost, her Department made in each year since 2010; and what the costs of (a) flights, (b) internal travel, (c) hotel accommodation and (d) CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT subsistence were of each trip. [174856] Gaming Machines Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Grant: The details requested for overseas trips Culture, Media and Sport what assessment she has are shown in the following table:
Travel and subsistence costs (including hotels No. of Eurostar Cost of Eurostar land internal travel No. of flights Cost of flights (£) trips trips (£) expenses) (£) Total costs (£)
2010-11 98 33,804 29 5,097 63,737 102,638 2011-12 154 73,565 120 19,143 138,367 231,075 2012-13 110 22,300 134 22,651 155,991 200,942
Further detail could be provided only at disproportionate Accidents Casualties cost due to the way that these records are stored in the Casualties per million per million Department’s financial systems. Total Total per vehicle vehicle The figure has fallen from 2007-08 when the total accidents casualties accident miles miles spent on international travel was just under £300,000. 2003 43 66 1.53 0.32 0.49 2004 33 58 1.76 0.24 0.42 2005 32 51 1.59 0.22 0.35 TRANSPORT 2006 35 56 1.60 0.24 0.38 A15 2007 40 74 1.85 0.27 0.50 2008 43 64 1.49 0.30 0.44 Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 42 70 1.67 0.29 0.49 Transport what the injury rate in accidents on the A15 2010 48 71 1.48 0.34 0.51 north of Lincoln was in each of the last 10 years. 2011 52 109 2.10 0.34 0.72 [174845] 2012 33 52 1.58 0.22 0.34 Mr Goodwill: The Department only holds information The number of accidents and casualties is relatively relating to road accidents reported to the police in small, so changes between years, especially in the rate which at least one person was injured. The Department figures, will occur naturally and may not be indicative does not hold information relating to damage-only of any broader trend. accidents. The following table gives (a) the number of reported A428 personal injury road accidents, (b) the number of reported road casualties, (c) the number of casualties per personal Mr Djanogly: To ask the Secretary of State for injury accident, (d) the number of reported personal Transport (1) what the personal injury rate on the A428 injury road accidents per million vehicle miles and (e) has been in each of the last 10 years; [174565] the number of reported road casualties per million (2) what the (a) traffic volume and (b) accident rate vehicle miles, on the A15 north of Lincoln for 2003 to was on the A428 in each of the last 10 years. [174606] 2012. These figures include all reported personal injury accidents on the A15 between the A46 north of Lincoln Mr Goodwill: (a) The annual average daily traffic and the junction with the A63 on the north side of the flows on the A428 for each of the last 10 years are as Humber bridge. follows: 571W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 572W
Year Westbound Eastbound Total Year Westbound Eastbound Total
2002 10,208 10,101 20,309 2010 10,149 10,022 20,171 2003 10,688 10,508 21,196 2011 10,555 10,251 20,806 2004 9,803 9,668 19,471 2012 10,675 10,285 20,960 2005 9,643 9,510 19,153 Notes: A number of data sources have been used for the 2011 and 2012 2006 9,432 9,452 18,884 figures. 2007 9,691 9,508 19,199 (b) The recorded personal injury rate (casualty rate) 2008 9,989 9,798 19,787 for the A428 between St Neots and Cambridge for each 2009 9,990 9,886 19,876 of the last 10 years is as follows:
2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
Fatal1240011302 Serious 28 11 18 7 23 3 3 16 4 5 Slight 48 70 49 57 32 46 25 27 27 49 Total77837164555029463156
The Highways Agency only records accidents in which gathering in relation to general aviation arrivals. The personal injuries occur. No record is kept of damage data which is collected includes the names of all of only accidents. those individuals arriving in the UK on these flights who are subsequently screened upon entry as a result of Mr Djanogly: To ask the Secretary of State for this process. The Home Office should continue to take Transport how long the average journey time on the the lead in relation to such matters. A428 from St Neots to Cambridge has been in each of the last 10 years. [174566] Driving: Sleep Apnoea
Mr Goodwill: The average journey times, in minutes, Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for for the A428 from St Neots to Cambridge for each of Transport what assessment he has made of the effect of the last 10 years is as follows: undiagnosed obstructive sleep apnoea on road safety. [174594] Number of minutes Mr Goodwill: The effect of obstructive sleep apnoea 2003 20 on road safety was considered in a report (commissioned 2004 20 by the Department) ‘Fatigue and Road Safety: A Critical 2005 20 Analysis of Recent Evidence’ and published in February 2006 21 2011. 2007 19 2008 18 Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 18 Transport how many deaths caused by road traffic 2010 19 accidents in each of the last five years were attributable 2011 19 to the driver having undiagnosed obstructive sleep 2012 19 apnoea. [174595] 20131 18 1 Data up to 31 August 2013 Mr Goodwill: Information on the number of road Aviation traffic deaths attributed to undiagnosed obstructive sleep apnoea is not held. Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he or his officials had with Finsbury Park Station the chief inspector of borders and immigration when drawing up their General Aviation Red Tape Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Challenge. [175262] Transport what discussions he has had with Network Rail and Transport for London on re-development Mr Goodwill: Neither the Secretary of State for Transport works at Finsbury Park station; and if he will make a or his officials have held discussions with the chief statement. [175265] inspector of borders while developing the response to the General Aviation Red Tape Challenge. Stephen Hammond: There have been no ministerial discussions with Network Rail or Transport for London Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for (TfL) about re-development works at Finsbury Park Transport if he will take steps to match arrivals data station. from general aviation entries into the UK with the National Air Traffic System. [175264] However, officials continue to monitor delivery of the Network Rail project to provide step free access to Mr Goodwill: There are no plans to match the arrivals the mainline platforms, due for completion by the end data which the UK Border Force logs for general aviation of 2014, and the TfL project to provide access to the arrivals at UK airfields. The Home Office is responsible Victoria and Piccadilly line platforms, due for completion for policy on border security and leads on information in 2017. 573W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 574W
Network Rail and TfL are working closely together (a) 120 metres, (b) 250 metres, (c) 300 metres, (d) to ensure that both of these complex projects are properly 350 metres, (e) 400 metres, (f) 450 metres and (g) co-ordinated. 500usb metres of the line. [175278]
Gospel Oak-Barking Railway Line Mr Goodwill: HS2 Ltd is working to compile this information. I will write to my right hon. Friend shortly and place a copy of that letter in the Libraries of the Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for House. Transport what estimate he has made of the cost and timetable for the electrification work of the Barking to Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Gospel Oak line; and if he will make a statement. Transport how many properties in the entire [175267] safeguarded area for Phase One of High Speed 2 are assigned to be demolished. [175279] Stephen Hammond: Network Rail has estimated the cost of electrification of the Barking to Gospel Oak line Mr Goodwill: The total number of residential properties to be £90 million. It is now developing a more detailed to be demolished is 339 residential dwellings (265 buildings). GRIP 3 estimate. I have asked Network Rail to explore Not all properties within safeguarding are required to with Transport for London and the freight operating be demolished. In addition to the number of residential companies ways this route might be efficiently electrified properties, there are 404 commercial units (312 buildings) by December 2017 and I await their suggestions. and 21 community facilities required for demolition. Further information will be published as part of the High Speed 2 Railway Line Environmental Statement and submitted with the hybrid Bill later this year. Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Inland Waterways: Freight Transport (1) how many passenger train services will stop at Stafford on High Speed 2 (HS2) after Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for completion of (a) phase 1 and (b) phase 2 of HS2. Transport what steps his Department is taking to [174718] encourage the use of inland waterways for freight (2) how many passenger train services will run on the movements. [175103] West Coast Mainline servicing (a) London to Stafford and (b) London to Stoke-on-Trent after completion of Mr Goodwill: The Department supports the shift of (i) phase one and (ii) phase two of High Speed 2; and freight from road to inland waterways, primarily through the Mode Shift Revenue Support scheme. This can what the average time will be of such journeys. [174719] assist companies with the operating costs of transporting Mr Goodwill: The Department’s aim is that all towns freight by inland waterway or rail, where this is more or cities which currently have a direct service to London expensive than road and where there are environmental will retain broadly comparable or better services once benefits to be gained. HS2 is completed. M180 It is not appropriate to specify the exact timetable for train services that are planned to operate in 2026 when Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for HS2 Phase 1 services begin. The detailed timetable Transport for what reason the slip road onto the M180 development will take place nearer the time and will was closed at Scunthorpe on 31 October 2013; for what consider operational considerations as well as the forecast reason such closure was not posted on the A15 and passenger demand for services. other approach routes; and if he will make a statement. [175186] As highlighted in the Strategic Case, published on 29 October, in partnership with the railway industry, we Mr Goodwill: The eastbound entry slip road at junction 4 intend to announce, shortly, a transparent and participatory was closed between the hours of 8 pm and 6 am from 29 process to consider long-term issues, opportunities and to 31 October 2013, and similarly at junction 5, the options for rail services on HS2 corridors. This will westbound entry slip road was closed from 31 October consider how these services can support the delivery of to 2 November 2013, to enable carriageway resurfacing economic growth on a sustainable basis. works to be carried out. Advisory signing was deployed within the locality of Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for junction 4 and junction 5 in the week prior to the works. Transport whether the five criteria referred to in the The agency also issued a road works press release on document, Property Compensation Consultation for 25 October 2013 and undertook a letter drop to residents. London - West Midlands HS2 Route, are all weighted equally; and if not, what are the weightings for each The agency does not normally place signing on local roads for short duration closures, given the practicality criterion. [175277] of erecting multiple advisory road signs and the associated Mr Goodwill: We have not stated a weighting for the costs. However, the signage for the agreed diversion five policy criteria set out in the consultation document, routes was also implemented during the closures. and this means we consider them to be of equal importance. Motor Vehicles: Lighting
Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many properties on Phase One of the Transport if he will take steps to reduce the proposed route for High Speed 2, in rural areas only inappropriate use of rear fog lights by motorists; and if and excluding those over deep bored tunnels, are within he will make a statement. [175187] 575W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 576W
Mr Goodwill: The use of rear fog lamps is controlled Motorcycles: Cumbria by the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 as amended, which sets the conditions under which the lamps may be used. Modern vehicles are designed to help prevent drivers inadvertently leaving the rear fog John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for lamps illuminated; such as automatically switching off Transport how many deaths and serious injuries when all other lamps are extinguished and then to occurred to motorcyclists as a result of road accidents remain off until deliberately switched on again. Alternatively in Cumbria in each of the last five years, on each type an audible warning may be given if the driver leaves the of road. [175284] vehicle with the rear fog lamps illuminated. Guidance on the correct use of fog lamps is provided in the Highway Code and I consider that the current Mr Goodwill: The number of reported motorcycle provisions are sufficiently robust. Enforcement of road casualties in Cumbria by area and road type for year of traffic law is a matter for the police. the last five years is given following table:
Number of casualties 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Seriously Seriously Seriously Seriously Seriously Killed injured Killed injured Killed injured Killed injured Killed injured
Urban A roads 0 10 0 5 0 1 0 2 0 6 B roads 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 Other roads1 0603052603
Rural A roads 4 35 1 48 3 32 5 15 6 22 B roads 0 5 0 6 0 6 1 6 1 8 Other roads1 0 13180 100 1028
Total A roads 4 45 1 53 3 33 5 17 6 28 B roads 0 6 0 6 0 7 1 6 1 8 Other roads1 0 19 1 11 0 15 2 16 2 11
Motorways 0111000200
All Roads 4 71 3 71 3 55 8 41 9 47 1 Includes “C” and “Unclassified” roads
Data for 2013 will be available in June 2014. would not be possible for the Department of Transport to obtain this information without incurring Parking: Pedestrian Areas disproportionate costs.
Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Road Signs and Markings Transport which local authorities have used the powers given to them in February 2011 to implement local Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for bans on parking on pavements. [174804] Transport what recent assessment he has made of the potential benefits of standardising road signage Mr Goodwill: This information is not held centrally. systems in the EU. [175174] The enforcement of parking on the footway (pavement) is the responsibility of local traffic authorities in areas Mr Goodwill: No such assessment has been made. that have civil parking enforcement powers and a matter Most traffic sign designs across Europe, including the for the police in areas that do not. United Kingdom, are based on international standards set in the Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals Qualifications 1968.
Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Roads: Accidents Transport how many people employed by his Department hold a (a) bachelor’s, (b) master’s and Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) PhD-level degree in computer science; and if he Transport whether he has made an assessment of the will make a statement. [175377] relationship between (a) changes to the number and funding of reductions to road safety grants and (b) the Stephen Hammond: The Department does not hold number of people killed and seriously injured in road data relating to qualifications held by employees. It traffic accidents between 2010 and 2013. [174746] 577W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 578W
Mr Goodwill: The Department as not made any formal CABINET OFFICE assessment of the relationship between (a) changes to the number and funding of reductions to road Civil Servants safety grants and (b) the number of people killed and seriously injured in road traffic accidents between 2010 Tracey Crouch: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and 2013. Office how many civil servants were employed in (a) However, the number of people killed in reported May 2010 and (b) the most recent period for which road traffic accidents decreased from 1,850 in 2010 to data is available. [175142] 1,754 in 2012. The number of people seriously injured in reported road traffic accidents in Great Britain Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the increased from 22,660 in 2010 to 23,039 in 2012. The responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have number of casualties in 2010 were affected by heavy asked the authority to reply. snowfall during the year which would led to fewer Letter from Peter Fullerton, dated November 2013: accidents than might have been expected had the weather As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I been more typical. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question Statistics for 2013 will be available in June 2014. asking the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many civil servants were employed in (a) May 2010 and (b) the most recent period for which data are available. (175142) Estimates of Civil Service employment are published quarterly South West Trains in March, June, September and December, by the Office for National Statistics on the National Statistics website. Data are not available for May 2010. The data provided refer to the survey Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for reference dates as at 30 June 2010 and 30 June 2013. Transport what proportion of the total network grant The number of people employed by home Civil Service was paid by Network Rail to South West Trains in each departments was 522,000 in June 2010 and 450,000 in June 2013. year since 2009-10. [175391] Home Civil Service excludes employees in the Northern Ireland Civil Service. Stephen Hammond: The Network Grant is a sum of money from the Department to Network Rail which is High Speed 2 Railway Line not allocated to specific parts of the rail network, nor is it paid to franchised train operators. Michael Fabricant: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office pursuant to the answer to the hon. There is no recognised rule for allocating the Network Member for South Northamptonshire of 30 October Grant across franchises. However, the Department for 2013, Official Report, column 490W, on High Speed 2 Transport (DFT) does publish an indication of how it railway line, whether the update referred to in the may be distributed across the train operators. This is answer will include the full test of the Major Projects calculated by taking the total Network Grant, apportioned Authority Report on High Speed 2; and if he will bring according to each franchise’s share of fixed track access forward the publication date of that update. [175164] charges, charged by Network Rail to run trains on the network: Mr Maude: In line with the Government’s transparency http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/cp4-pl- policy the next Annual Report on major projects will be fixedtrackchargessched181208.pdf published in May 2014. It will include an overview of A breakdown by operator is available on the DFT the Government Major Projects Portfolio, including website: data from the second quarter of the 2013-14 financial https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-subsidy-per- year. Departments will publish detailed information on passenger-mile each of their projects including RAG ratings, financial information and schedules. Project Assurance Reports are not included in the Annual Report. UK Border Force Job Creation
Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Julie Hilling: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Transport what discussions he or his officials of his Office how many new jobs created in the period from Department have had with their counterparts in the (a) May 2010 to April 2011 and (b) May 2011 to April Home Office on including passengers travelling by 2012 lasted for more than 12 months. [175173] private flights (general aviation) or private boats (general maritime) to the UK in the Border Force’s Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the operating mandate. [175263] responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Mr Goodwill: No discussions have taken place between Letter from Peter Fullerton, dated November 2013: the Secretary of State for Transport or his officials in As Director General for the Office for National Statistics relation to the UK Border Force’s operating mandate in (ONS), I have been asked to reply to your how many new jobs relation to either the general aviation or maritime sectors. created in the period from (a) May 2010 to April 2011 and (b) The Home Office is responsible for policy on border May 2011 to April 2012 lasted for more than 12 months. 175173 security. Border Force is a law enforcement command Information regarding the number of jobs created is not available. within the Home Office responsible for securing the UK As an alternative, ONS usually provides estimates relating to the border by carrying out immigration and customs controls net change in the number of people in employment are available for people and goods entering the UK. from the Labour Force Survey (LFS). Unfortunately the requested 579W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 580W information on duration of employment is not available from the Justine Greening: DFID undertakes projects to generate LFS Questions on the LFS focus on the length of time employed economic opportunities for poor people in all countries with current employer and not how long any previous or current where we work. One example is DFID’s support to the job did or is expected to last. Katalyst project in Bangladesh, which has worked with Qualifications 900,000 farmers and rural small businesses. Examples of projects specifically benefitting youth Mrs Moon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and women include giving education-deprived youth in Office how many people employed by (a) his South Sudan practical livelihood skills and in Somalia Department, (b) the Office of the Prime Minister, (c) providing market-oriented skills training and small grants the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and (d) the to 2,500 small and medium enterprises run by women. Office of the Leader of the House of Commons hold a (i) bachelor’s, (ii) master’s and (iii) PhD-level degree in Procurement computer science; and if he will make a statement. [175382] Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what her Department’s top Mr Maude: This information is not held centrally. 20 contractors, by value, were on projects in (a) Statistics 2010-11 and (b) 2012-13. [174724]
Nicholas Soames: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Justine Greening: DFID’s top 20 contractors by value Office what steps his Department is taking to improve for financial year 2010-11 and 2012-13 are listed as the quality of public statistics. [175241] follows. Financial year 2010-11 Mr Hurd: Responsibility for independently assessing ABT Associates Inc. and monitoring the quality of official statistics lies with Adam Smith International the UK Statistics Authority. BMB Mott MacDonald Cabinet Office Ministers meet the chair of the UK British Council Statistics Authority and the national statistician regularly to discuss statistical matters. Cambridge Education Coffey International Development Ltd Youth Work Crown Agents GRM International Tristram Hunt: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office if he will estimate the annual change in (a) Health Partners International full-time and (b) part-time employment in professional HLSP Ltd youth work since 2010. [167531] HTSPE Ltd IMC Worldwide Ltd Mr Hurd: Further to my answer of 17 October 2013, KPMG Official Report, column 865W, my Department took London School of Economics and Political Science over responsibility for youth policy in July 2013. I have Malaria Consortium commissioned a review of the quality and quantity of NRI Ltd existing youth provision and will update the House Options Consultancy Svs further once it concludes. PricewaterhouseCoopers Society for Family Health INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Trademark East Africa Argentina Financial year 2012-13 ABT Associates Inc. Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Adam Smith International Ltd International Development whether the UK plans to ATOS Consulting Ltd vote against further World Bank loans to Argentina BMB Mott MacDonald (a) in December 2013 and (b) for the foreseeable British Council future. [174625] Cambridge Education Ltd Justine Greening: Earlier in the year, I instructed the Coffey International Development Ltd UK’s representatives at the Inter-American Development Crown Agents Govts and Admin Bank and World Bank to vote against all new proposals GRM International Ltd for financial support to the Government of the Republic Health Partners International of Argentina presented by these institutions, while reserving HLSP Ltd the right to support proposals that can demonstrate HTSPE Ltd exceptional benefits to the poorest people of Argentina. London School of Economics and Political Science I have not changed my position on this. Malaria Consortium Developing Countries: Job Creation Marie Stopes International Maxwell Stamp plc Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what projects her Options Consultancy Services Ltd Department funds to support job and employment Oxford Policy Management creation (a) generally, (b) for young people and (c) PricewaterhouseCoopers for women. [174722] Voluntary Service Overseas 581W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 582W
ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Households in the North East of England Number of fuel poor households Proportion of households that Energy Companies Obligation (thousand) are fuel poor (percentage)
2009 169 15 Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State 2010 162 14 for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has 2011 142 12 made of the cost to energy companies of the energy company obligation since 1 January 2013. [174806] In July the Government announced its intention to Gregory Barker: On 21 October, the Department adopt the new Low Income High Costs (LIHC) indicator published hard figures on the cost energy companies of fuel poverty, based on the recommendations from have been incurring in delivering the energy company Professor Hills’ independent review. The above figures obligation (ECO). These figures suggest that the cost to are based on this LIHC measure of fuel poverty. companies of delivering the obligation so far are in line Under the LIHC indicator a household is considered with the central scenario in the DECC impact assessment fuel poor if they have above average fuel costs and were for ECO of around £1.3 billion per annum. they to spend that amount on fuel, they would be left This publication is available at: with a residual income below the official poverty line. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/energy- The latest year of available data is for 2011, and it is company-obligation-eco-delivery-costs anticipated that figures for 2012 will be published in summer 2014. Tables are published as DECC statistics Energy: Prices at the link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trends-in-fuel- Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy poverty-england-2003-to-2011 and Climate Change what assessment he has made of the cost of (a) decarbonisation of the UK’s energy supplies and (b) consumer bills as a result. [174329] Office for Nuclear Regulation
Gregory Barker: The Climate Change Act 2008 requires that UK territorial emissions are reduced by 80% on Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 1990 levels by 2050. The cost and benefit of meeting and Climate Change what discussions he has had with this were set out in the accompanying impact assessment. the Office for Nuclear Regulation on its programme of stakeholder engagement; and whether (a) any The Prices and Bills Impact Report, published in Ministers or officials of his Department and (b) March 2013, provides the estimated impact of current officials from other bodies responsible for aspects of and firmly planned policies on energy prices and bills to nuclear regulation have been invited to attend such 2030 and is available at: stakeholder meetings since the stakeholder forum was https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ inaugurated. [175052] attachment_data/file/172923/130326_- _Price_and_Bill_Impacts_Report_Final.pdf Michael Fallon: Discussions between the Department Environment Protection: Taxation of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) and the Office for Nuclear Regulation (ONR) regarding the ONR’s stakeholder engagement activities take place in the context Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for of specific projects. DECC Ministers and officials are Energy and Climate Change what targets his regularly invited to attend the annual ONR CEO Department has been set by the Prime Minister for Conference. I have asked ONR to respond to the hon. savings on the cost of average dual fuel energy bills Gentleman on other invitees to its events. following the conclusion of the review of green levies. [174802] Plutonium Michael Fallon: This Government is committed to ensuring consumers have the lowest possible bills. Further details of the outcome and scope of the review of the Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy green levies will be announced at the time of the autumn and Climate Change what his policy is on the statement. prospective use of plutonium currently stockpiled at Sellafield in MOX fuel in the planned EPR reactor at Fuel Poverty: North East Hinkley. [175294]
Mr Alan Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Michael Fallon: The Government’s policy on plutonium Energy and Climate Change how many people in the management was set out in our consultation response North East were living in fuel poverty in each of the of December 2011. It is the Government’s preferred last three years. [175223] option that currently stored plutonium should be converted into MOX fuel and utilised in the next generation of Gregory Barker: Fuel poverty is measured at a household nuclear reactors, yet to be built. This is a long-term aim. level. The following table shows the number of households Actual use of MOX in Hinkley or any other new build in fuel poverty, in the North East of England, over the reactors would need to be subject to commercial last three years for which data are published. negotiations with the operators concerned. 583W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 584W
WALES Emergencies: Planning
Magistrates Courts John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what support Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales and guidance is provided by his Department to local what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State communities in drawing up emergency resilience plans. for Justice regarding the proposed closure of the Neath [175283] Port Talbot Magistrates Court; and if he will make a statement. [174703] Brandon Lewis: The 38 local resilience forums in England are responsible for the production of the local Mr David Jones: I have regular discussions with the community risk register and associated plans. The Resilience Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, and Emergencies Division in my Department supports my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and resilience planning by acting as the interface between Ewell (Chris Grayling) on a range of matters affecting national and local level in emergency planning and Wales. response. The division works closely with the Civil Contingencies Secretariat in the Cabinet Office and A consultation on the proposed closure of the Neath other Government Departments with leads for aspects magistrates court opened on 26 September 2013 and of resilience policy to provide guidance to local resilience closed on 7 November 2013. The responses to this forums in England. consultation will now be fully considered before any decision is taken. Fire Services: South West
Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the annual COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT budget is of each fire and rescue brigade in the South West. [174748] Absenteeism Brandon Lewis: The setting of annual budgets is a Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for local matter for each fire and rescue authority. However Communities and Local Government what the rates of my Department does publish expenditure and financing staff (a) absence and (b) sickness absence in his information for all local authorities, including for fire Department in each of the past five years were; and and rescue authorities, which is available at: what the departmental targets were in each case. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/local-authority- [168731] revenue-expenditure-and-financing-england-2013-to-2014- individual-local-authority-data Brandon Lewis: The average working days lost due to Housing: Construction sickness in the last five years is shown in the following table. Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for For the 12 month period ending March 2013, the Communities and Local Government how many Department’s absence rate was 6.3 average working homes were started on (a) brownfield and (b) days lost per member of staff. This is lower than the greenfield sites in each year from 2002 to 2012. [175247] civil service average of 7.7 days, the public services Kris Hopkins: Statistics on the proportion of new sector average of 8.7 days and private sector average dwellings on previously developed land in England for of 7.2 days in organisations of an equivalent size to each year to 2010 are published in the Department’s live the Department (1,000 to 4,999 employees—figures table P211 which is available at the following link. from the October 2013 Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development annual absence management http://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables- survey). on-land-use-change-statistics The Department does not set annual targets but Housing: Greater London compares absence rates to those in the civil service, wider public and the private sector. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will list the Year ending Average working days lost total number of new dwellings completed by (a) councils, (b) housing associations and (c) private March 2009 5.3 sector for each year since 2008-09 in each London March 2010 4.9 borough. [175266] March 2011 6.4 March 2012 6.4 Kris Hopkins: Statistics on house building completions March 2013 6.3 by tenure in each London borough are published in the Department’s live tables 253 (annual) and 253a (quarterly), I also refer the hon. Member to my answer of 15 April which are available at the following link: 2013, Official Report, column 222W, on the steps we are http://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables- taking to reduce such absence. on-house-building I would observe when the hon. Member was a special Taken together, the housing association and local adviser in the predecessor to this Department (then the authority tenures provide estimates of total social housing Department for Transport, Local Government and the completions, but these figures mostly understate total Regions), the average working days lost figures were affordable supply. This is because the house building 7.0 in 2001 rising to 7.7 in 2002. figures are categorised by the type of developer rather 585W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 586W than the intended final tenure, leading to under recording The project has remediated 11ha (27.2 acres) of of affordable housing, and a corresponding over recording contaminated, derelict and vacant land situated in West of private enterprise figures. Float, Birkenhead, part of the Wirral Docklands Regional More comprehensive statistics on affordable housing Development Site. completions funded by the Homes and Communities Peel Holdings has not been an applicant or significant Agency and the Greater London Authority since 2009-10 beneficiary of any other project funded through the by tenure are available at the following link: European Regional Development Fund North West https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/ Operational programme during the last five years. affordable-housing-starts-and-completions-funded-by-the- hca-and-the-gla-2012-to-2013 Public Sector Relocation Independent Review These statistics include both newly built housing and acquisitions but exclude delivery of affordable housing Mr Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for not funded by the Homes and Communities Agency Communities and Local Government how much and Greater London Authority programmes that are Sir Michael Lyons was paid in total in salary, fees and reported in local authority returns to the Department. related expenses for the Lyons Review in 2004. [175271] A fuller picture of all affordable housing completions is published in the Department’s live tables 1000, 1006, 1007 and 1008, which are available at the following link: Nicky Morgan: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Treasury. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- tables-on-affordable-housing-supply No Government related reviews into public sector relocation by Sir Michael Lyons were published in Non-domestic Rates either 2007 or 2013. For the 2004 review in to public sector relocation, Sir Michael Lyons received remuneration of £40,000 excluding VAT, and expenses of £6,000. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what proportion Redundancy of total business rates revenues was collected from businesses with a rateable value between (a) £6,001 and £12,000 and (b) 12,001 and £18,000. [175176] Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many staff Brandon Lewis: This information is not held centrally. were made redundant from non-departmental public bodies accountable to his Department in (a) 2010-11, Whilst the Valuation Office Agency holds information (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13; and how many on the Rateable Value of individual hereditaments, bills redundancy payments were made in lieu of notice. and rate relief are administered by local billing authorities. [170345]
Parking: Fees and Charges Brandon Lewis: DCLG is on track to deliver administrative savings of £231 million over the spending Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for period due to the reform of its arm’s length bodies. Communities and Local Government which local These savings are related to staff and budget reductions authorities impose the highest car parking charges in and additionally arm’s length bodies adopting a more towns and cities in the UK. [175236] commercial approach. Since April 2011 the Department has reduced its overall number from 16 to eight due to Brandon Lewis: We do not hold the information in closure or reform. the form requested. As a result of closure and reform a number of the We have been consulting on a proposed revision to staff received payments in lieu of notice that were the local government Transparency Code which will agreed in exceptional circumstances for a variety of increase the amount of available information and open reasons including the inability of staff to serve contractual data on car park charging practices, and so allow the notice periods and the absence of work for them to do, press and public to hold councils to account and make It is unacceptable and irregular to me, taxpayers, and comparisons on car park charging. the National Audit Office for arm’s length bodies to award payments in lieu of notice to themselves without Peel Holdings proper agreement where the need for payment could have been avoided. Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for A report was recently published by the Department Communities and Local Government, what grants and following an investigation by the Cross Departmental loans have been made by his Department and the Internal Audit Services into the use of public funds by bodies for which it is responsible to projects in which Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Corporation Peel Holdings is a significant beneficiary in each of the following its closure in October 2012. last five years. [170992] A copy of this report can be found at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/report-of-an- Brandon Lewis: The European Regional Development investigation-into-the-use-of-public-funds-by-thurrock- Fund North West Operational programme 2007-13 has thames-gateway-corporation directly contracted with Peel Holdings approving a The Department’s executive agencies and non- grant of £1,506,379 to West Float Land Remediation departmental public bodies have provided the following project. information in respect of payments in lieu of notice: 587W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 588W
Agencies Non-department public bodies Number of redundancies Number of payments in lieu of notice 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
Planning Inspectorate1 76 0 19 0 0 8 Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre 000000 1 Figures include those for the Infrastructure Planning Commission
Current non-departmental public bodies Non-department public bodies Number of redundancies Number of payments in lieu of notice 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
Homes and Communities Agency1 16 264 37 0 0 1 Independent Housing Ombudsman Ltd 0 0 3 0 0 1 Leasehold Advisory Service 1 0 0 0 0 0 Valuation Tribunal Service 22 0 0 6 0 0 West Northamptonshire Development Corporation 7 5 2 7 5 2 Audit Commission 414 275 215 68 26 6 Architects’ Registration Board 0 0 0 0 0 0 Local Government Ombudsman 3 2 34 0 0 0 1 Figures include those for the Tenant Services Authority in 2012-13
Closed/reformed non-departmental public bodies Non-department public bodies Number of redundancies Number of payments in lieu of notice 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
Standards Board for England1 33 35 n/a — — n/a London Thames Gateway Development Corporation1 2 015——— Firebuy1 59n/a——n/a Fire Service College1 0130——— Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Corporation 10 56016 1 Figures for these bodies are taken from each organisation’s published accounts. Figures for any additional payments in lieu of notice were not recorded separately in the accounts and cannot now be identified.
WORK AND PENSIONS Trialling began in April 2013, and this will conclude in April 2014. If appropriate, we will publish findings Child Benefit from our segmentation approach, successful interventions and lessons learned. Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Cold Weather Payments: Wales and Pensions whether his Department has taken steps to make parents aware that, following the recent Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for changes to child benefits, if they elect not to receive Work and Pensions (1) if he will publish (a) the that benefit, they could lose their future national recorded average temperatures used for the calculation insurance carer’s credit. [174320] of cold weather payments at the weather station at Mona, Ynys Môn, for each week of the last five years Sajid Javid: I have been asked to reply on behalf of and (b) the average temperature at Bethesda, Arfon, the Treasury. for each week of the last five years; [175127] I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the (2) what assessment he has made of the difference in hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie), on recorded temperatures between the weather station at 18 January 2013, Official Report, column 985W, on Mona, Ynys Môn and Bethesda in Arfon constituency ‘National Insurance Credits’. in relation to the cold weather payment. [175128]
Children: Maintenance Steve Webb: We are unable to provide all of the data for the last five years due to disproportional costs. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State However, following are the recorded average temperature for Work and Pensions if he will publish an update on readings for cold weather payment scheme for the year his Department’s plans to develop and test an arrears 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14 for the weather station at segmentation approach in respect of child maintenance Mona. arrears combining a client’s willingness and ability to pay with other available data sources, and using the 2011-12 client’s history of paying in order to test different Average temperature communications messages and the effect it has on Period (degrees) payment behaviour. [175123] 1 November 2011 to 7 November 2011 9.5 8 November 2011 to 14 November 2011 10.6 Steve Webb: We are currently testing different 15 November 2011 to 21 November 2011 8.9 communication interventions and the effect they have 22 November 2011 to 28 November 2011 9.7 on payment behaviour. These interventions are looking 29 November 2011 to 5 December 2011 7.4 at clients’ willingness and ability to pay. 589W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 590W
Disability living allowance delivery and processes are 2011-12 regularly reviewed and improvement initiated across the Average temperature Period (degrees) customer journey. 6 December 2011 to 12 December 2011 6.9 Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 13 December 2011 to 19 December 2011 4.4 and Pensions how many people receiving disability 20 December 2011 to 26 December 2011 8.9 living allowance will be reassessed for that allowance 27 December 2011 to 3 January 2012 7.9 between October and December 2013 in each postcode 4 January 2012 to 10 January 2012 7.8 highlighted in his Department’s Quick Guide to 11 January 2012 to 17 January 2012 4.3 Personal Independence Payments, updated on 18 January 2012 to 24 January 2012 7.3 28 October 2013. [174709] 25 January 2012 to 31 January 2012 3.5 1 February 2012 to 7 February 2012 1.5 Mike Penning: National estimates for the number of 8 February 2012 to 14 February 2012 3.6 reassessments we expect to be carried out each quarter 15 February 2012 to 21 February 2012 6.0 are quoted in the ’Personal Independence Payment— 22 February 2012 to 28 February 2012 8.4 Reassessments and Impacts’ briefing note, which can be 29 February 2012 to 6 March 2012 7.2 found at: 7 March 2012 to 13 March 2012 8.4 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ 14 March 2012 to 20 March 2012 7.6 attachment_data/file/180964/pip-reassessments-and- impacts.pdf 21 March 2012 to 27 March 2012 10.9 This document has not been updated yet, following 2012 to 13 the decision to use a controlled roll out of reassessment to certain postcodes on 28 October, as we plan to Average Temperature Period (Degrees) update it following the autumn statement. However, we estimate that the postcodes included in the Department’s 1 November 2012 to 7 November 2012 6.3 Quick Guide to PIP will account for a quarter of the 8 November 2012 to 14 November 2012 8.6 estimated reassessment volumes. 15 November 2012 to 21 November 2012 8.0 22 November 2012 to 28 November 2012 6.1 Employment Schemes 29 November 2012 to 5 December 2012 3.6 6 December 2012 to 12 December 2012 2.9 13 December 2012 to 19 December 2012 5.2 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much his Department spent 20 December 2012 to 26 December 2012 7.6 on Universal Jobs Match in 2012-13. [175274] 27 December 2012 to 3 January 2013 7.7 4 January 2013 to 10 January 2013 7.4 Esther McVey: Universal jobmatch makes it easier 11 January 2013 to 17 January 2013 1.9 and quicker for claimants to jobsearch, and get back to 18 January 2013 to 24 January 2013 0.0 work. Jobcentre Plus advisers are able to review a 25 January 2013 to 31 January 2013 6.3 universal jobmatch account (with permission from the 1 February 2013 to 7 February 2013 4.8 claimant) and look at the claimant’s CV and application 8 February 2013 to 14 February 2013 4.4 history. As a result, advisers can give a tailored high 15 February 2013 to 21 February 2013 3.9 quality support service to claimants who agree to give 22 February 2013 to 28 February 2013 2.2 them access, helping claimants to optimise their CVs 29 February 2013 to 6 March 2013 3.8 and identify any skills gaps. 7 March 2013 to 13 March 2013 4.4 Universal jobmatch provides employers with an enhanced 14 March 2013 to 20 March 2013 4.0 online recruitment service, automatically matching 21 March 2012 to 27 March 2013 2.1 employers’ jobs to suitable jobseekers and ranking the results based on how closely jobseekers match the search 2013-14 requirements described by the company. This helps Average temperature speed up the whole recruitment process. Period (degrees) Employers have the facility to set up and manage 1 November 2013 to 7 November 2013 7.8 their own online accounts, at a time to suit them, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The Met Office does not have a weather station located in Bethesda, Arfon to provide comparable data. The cost of universal jobmatch from September 2012 to September 2013 to the Department is as follows: Disability Living Allowance The DWP spending to date for universal jobmatch in the Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for financial year April 2012 to March 2013 was £9.34 million (this is a mixture of staff and information systems/information technology Work and Pensions what steps his Department is costs). taking to reduce the time between an application for disability living allowance and the award. [174661] The ongoing estimated full year annual cost of universal jobmatch is £5.7 million (excluding estimates for future Mike Penning: There is an ongoing focus on improving inflation). This cost includes future payments to Monster. the service provided to customers and active management of disability living allowance claims, this is alongside Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for the roll out of the personal independence payment Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to control (PIP) from 1 April 2013. the quality of the Universal Jobs Match service. [175275] 591W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 592W
Esther McVey: The service performance for universal In addition, the Asbestos Victim Support Group has jobmatch is regularly monitored by a dedicated team shared their campaign literature encouraging the Minister within DWP, supported by MI as part of the service to review the level of tariff payments for mesothelioma delivery arrangements. sufferers resulting from the Bill. DWP has also commissioned further Insight work In relation to mesothelioma cases in which there is an which will provide future recommendations to improve identified employer or insurer, the Government published the service as part of a continuous improvement process. its consultation paper “Reforming Mesothelioma Claims” DWP and the providers (Monster) have an agreed on 24 July 2013. Proposals seek to ensure that compensation request for change process and there have been many is paid fairly and quickly, where necessary. enhancements made to the service since go live and The consultation closed on 2 October 2013 with 105 further enhancements to be made in the near future responses received by the Ministry of Justice from a which will improve the customer experience for all wide range of interested parties, including mesothelioma users. victims groups, claimant lawyers and the insurance industry. The Ministry of Justice are carefully considering Employment Schemes: Disability those contributions and plan to publish the response to the consultation by the end of the year. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what research his Department has Personal Independence Payment commissioned or undertaken into employment support programmes in other countries for people with Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Work ill-health. [175280] and Pensions how many people who were in receipt of disability living allowance have been re-assessed for Esther McVey: The Department has commissioned a personal independence payment since 8 April 2013; review of international research evidence of what works and what percentage of the forecast figure this is. to help disabled people and people with health conditions [174596] into employment. The report will be published shortly alongside the health and disability employment strategy. Mike Penning: Reassessment of existing DLA claimants In 2012, the Department published a report reviewing began on 28 October 2013 in Wales, West and East evidence on the effectiveness of interventions to help Midlands and East Anglia. employees with common health conditions stay in work As Reassessment only began on 28 October 2013 the or return to work from sickness absence. A copy of the figures requested are not yet available. report, DWP Research Report 812, is available online at: Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/quantifying-the- and Pensions whether financial or other penalties will effectiveness-of-interventions-for-people-with-common- be imposed on those companies contracted to carry out health-conditions-in-enabling-them-to-stay-in-or-return-to- the assessment process for the personal independence work-rr812 payment as a result of the delay to the national rollout. [174602] Jobcentre Plus Mike Penning: We have announced that changes to Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for the rollout of personal independence payment (PIP) are Work and Pensions what the average caseload of a because we are introducing PIP in a controlled manner, Jobcentre Plus advisor was in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) learning lessons from the live environment to ensure we 2010, (d) 2011 and (e) 2012. [175276] get this right. This approach is in line with the way we have been introducing all our other programmes of Esther McVey: The information requested is not readily change. New claims to PIP began in April in a controlled available and could be provided only at disproportionate start area and were extended nationally across Great cost. Britain in June. We continue to take new claims to PIP across Great Mesothelioma Britain and on 28 October 2013 we started the natural reassessment phase with both Atos and Capita, inviting Mr Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work some existing DLA recipients living in Wales, West and Pensions what recent representations he has Midlands, East Midlands and East Anglia to claim PIP. received on compensation for people with mesothelioma. [901037] Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many recipients of disability living Mike Penning: I, as Minister for Disabled People, met allowance living in areas other than Wales, the with representatives of the All Party Parliamentary midlands and East Anglia received notification that Group on Occupational Safety and Health on the they would be reassessed for personal independence 15 October 2013 and with representatives of the Asbestos payment before the announcement of the delay to the Victims Support Group on 5 November 2013 to discuss national roll-out. [174642] the Mesothelioma Bill currently before Parliament. The Mesothelioma Bill relates to people who contracted Mike Penning: Every disability living allowance (DLA) mesothelioma due to negligent exposure to asbestos at claimant received some general information about personal work and they are unable to trace their employer or independence payment (PIP) in their annual uprating employers’ liability insurer. letters during February and March. This letter made it 593W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 594W clear to DLA claimants that they did not need to Mike Penning: The Department does not hold data contact the Department about PIP, that DWP would on the current number of adult claimants of disability contact them again about claiming PIP but ensured that living allowance broken down by the personal independence they were made aware of the plans to introduce the new payment (PIP) consultation centres provided by Atos benefit and how they might be affected. Healthcare—the assessment provider in Lot 3 (London In addition, approximately 14,400 letters have been and Southern England). DWP has set a clear requirement issued to claimants approaching their 16th birthday. that claimants travel no more than 90 minutes (single These letters tell the parent/guardian that the young journey) by public transport, to their consultation—this person will need to claim PIP at 16 and that DWP will figure is an absolute maximum and for most claimants write to them to explain how to do this. It makes it clear their journey will be less than this. that PIP cannot be claimed until 16 and that we will make sure DLA payments continue while we decide if Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for they are entitled to PIP. Work and Pensions which of the 21 personal independence payment consultation centres serving During the initial phase of natural reassessment, any south and east England are not wheelchair-accessible. child receiving DLA in Wales, west midlands, east midlands and East Anglia (approximately 23% of the case load) [174785] will receive an invitation to claim PIP soon after their Mike Penning: All sites must be compliant with the 16th birthday. Children receiving DLA outside of those Equality Act 2010, with suitable ground floor areas of scope will receive a letter and DLA claim pack accommodation available. to either renew their DLA or review their entitlement. Personal Independence Payment: Stirling Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether the costs of assessing Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Work transport to personal independence payment and Pensions when young people in Stirling assessment centres are borne by Atos under their constituency who are currently in receipt of disability contractor or paid separately by his Department. living allowance will be re-assessed for personal [174788] independence payment. [174597]
Mike Penning: Personal independence payment (PIP) Mike Penning: Reassessment of existing DLA claimants assessment providers are required to pay claimants’ started in a limited geographic area from 28 October. travelling expenses in line with guidance issued by the Further details of where and when reassessment activity Department. These costs are not passed through to the will commence will be taken and published in due Department directly. course in line with legislative requirements. The Department pays an output fee per assessment Personal Independence Payment: Terminal Illnesses and the assessment providers were required to offer output fees which reflected all of their costs when they bid for the contracts at the tender stage. Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the timescale is for decisions for Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for people with terminal illnesses who apply for personal Work and Pensions under what circumstances those independence payments under the Special Rules attending personal independence payment centres have procedures. [174644] their transport costs paid. [174789] Mike Penning: Although personal independence payment is a new benefit, and the Department does not have a Mike Penning: Where it is necessary for a claimant to target for completion of claims whilst processes are travel to a face-to-face consultation, they are able to bedding in, we do deal urgently with special rules claims claim travel expenses for themselves and a companion for terminally ill claimants. or carer, or young children who would otherwise be left unattended. Personal Independence Payment: Young People Payments are made for public transport fares, travel by private motor vehicle and in some circumstances, Mrs McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Work where prior approval has been given by the assessment and Pensions how many young people currently in provider, taxi fares. Payments relating to other costs receipt of disability living allowance will be re-assessed related to the journey such as parking, tolls or congestion for the personal independence payment in the three charges can also be met. months from 7 October 2013 in the postcode areas The assessment providers are required to reimburse highlighted in the Quick Guide to Personal these expenses within 14 calendar days of the claim. Independence Payments, updated on 28 October 2013. [174708] Personal Independence Payment: South East Mike Penning: National estimates for the number of reassessments we expect to be carried out each quarter Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for are quoted in the ’Personal Independence Payment— Work and Pensions how many present adult claimants Reassessments and Impacts’ briefing note, which can be of disability living allowance live within the catchment found at: of each personal independence payment consultation https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ centre serving South and East England; and what the attachment_data/file/180964/pip-reassessments-and- longest journey in miles is to each such centre. [174783] impacts.pdf 595W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 596W
This document has not been updated yet, following award of benefit, and through to payment. Benefit the decision to use a controlled of reassessment to delivery processes are regularly reviewed and improvement certain postcodes on 28 October, as we plan to update it initiated as appropriate. following the autumn statement. However, we estimate that around 8,500 DLA recipients reach age 16 in each Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for three month period across Great Britain (34,000 each Work and Pensions what the average time is between an year). We also estimate that the postcodes included in application for (a) disability living allowance and (b) the Department’s Quick Guide to PIP will account for a personal independence payment and the setting of a quarter of the estimated reassessment volumes. date for an assessment. [174663] Mike Penning: DLA is a self assessed benefit and Refuges: Females does not have a formal assessment process as PIP does and only a proportion of DLA new claims are referred Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for a medical examination. The average clearance time and Pensions what assessment he has made of the for a new DLA claim under normal rules is 31.6 days. impact of the extension of the single accommodation PIP introduced an assessment undertaken by assessment rate to people aged up to 35 years old on the ability of providers and although limited data has started to feed women fleeing domestic violence to move on from a through, we need to wait until the Department has refuge; and if he will make a statement. [175234] quality assured, meaningful figures for publication. The Department is working to guidelines set by the UK Steve Webb: Extending the shared accommodation Statistics Authority to ensure we are able to publish rate to single people aged up to 35 encourages people statistics that meet high quality standards at the earliest claiming benefits to make the same choices about their opportunity. We intend to publish Official Statistics on accommodation as people not claiming benefits, many personal independence payment from spring 2014. of whom share. In order to manage the gap between personal The shared accommodation rate does not apply to independence payment go-live and the first release of claimants with dependent children or those living in Official Statistics in spring 2014, we are assessing whether social and third sector supported housing. we can release some management information. If the In most areas outside inner London, around 30% of quality assurance of this management information shows shared accommodation is affordable within LHA rates, that it is sufficiently robust and reliable then we aim to so there is no reason people should be left without publish it via an ad-hoc statistical release. somewhere to live. Universal Credit For people who require further support, we are providing £180 million in locally administered discretionary housing Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for payments this year. Work and Pensions for what period he chaired the The Department has commissioned a major independent Senior Sponsorship Group responsible for the review of the changes to local housing allowance. The oversight of the universal credit programme. [175273] final report is due to be published next year. Esther McVey: I can confirm that the Secretary of Sick Leave State for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), chaired the Senior Sponsorship Group (SSG) Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work from May 2011 to October 2012. He continues to chair and Pensions how many working days were lost owing the Universal Credit Ministerial Oversight Group, which to (a) anxiety, (b) depression and (c) stress in each superseded the SSG. year for which data is available. [175061] Universal Credit: Hammersmith and Fulham Mike Penning: Data is not captured at a sufficiently detailed enough level to determine the number of working Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for days lost each year due to: (a) anxiety; (b) depression; Work and Pensions whether his Department records and (c) stress. the nationality of new claimants of universal credit in Hammersmith and Fulham; and if his Department will We acknowledge, however, that employment rates for publish all data it records on the nationality of such people with depression, anxiety and other common claimants. [174963] mental health problems are relatively low. This is why the Government is exploring new integrated approaches Esther McVey: Universal credit is at present only across the mental health and employment system. available to British citizens and, therefore, no data is held regarding the nationality of universal credit claimants. Social Security Benefits Vaccination: Compensation
Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps his Department is Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has taking to reduce the time taken between a decision to made of the operation of the Government’s Vaccine award a benefit and the start of payments. [174662] Damage Payment scheme; and if he will publish the results of that assessment. [174679] Esther McVey: There is an ongoing focus on the service provided to customers, for all benefits streams. Mike Penning: There has been no recent assessment This includes the time taken from the date of claim to of the Vaccine Damage Payment scheme. 597W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 598W
BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Hurstpierpoint), and the Minister without Portfolio, Bank Services: Fees and Charges my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke). Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for The Prime Minister’s Adviser on EU and Global Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Issues (outgoing Ivan Rogers, incoming Tom Scholar) made of the amount consumers spend on bank fees chairs a regular strategy meeting of senior level officials and charges. [175051] from all relevant Departments, and BIS also convenes regular working level meetings. Where cross-Government Jo Swinson: On 25 January 2013, the Office of Fair policy clearance is required, TTIP work falls under the Trading (OFT) published a review of the personal remit of the European Affairs Committee of Cabinet. current account market in the UK. This included the OFTs analysis of the amount consumers spend on bank Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for fees and charges and how these had changed since the Business, Innovation and Skills what consideration his OFT’s market study of the personal current account Department has given to investor-state dispute market in 2008. settlement, as detailed within the Transatlantic Trade The key findings from the OFT’s review was that and Investment Pact. [175251] there has been a significant reduction in the level of overdraft charges overall. The OFT estimates that there Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation have been consumer savings of between £388 million and Skills has commissioned academic research into the and £928 million since the OFT carried out its market impact of investor-state dispute settlement within the study in 2008. During this period, unarranged overdraft context of wider investment protection treaties. This revenues fell substantially, and despite increased revenues research is intended to inform the UK position with from arranged overdrafts and debit interest, there is still regard to the upcoming investment treaties being negotiated a substantial saving for consumers. by the EU. The OFT review of the personal current account The research commissioned included a framework to market found that there has been a substantial reduction analyse the costs and benefits of investment protection in unarranged overdraft charges since 2007. Total revenue treaties as a whole and use of the framework to assess to personal current account providers from arranged the inclusion of investor-state dispute settlement provisions and unarranged lending has fallen by £507 million within the proposed EU agreements with China and overall (in 2011 prices). with the US (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment The OFT’s full review of the personal current account Partnership). A copy of this research will be placed in market can be found at: the Libraries of the House. http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/financial_products/ OFT1005rev Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Of particular interest will be chapter 5, including figures 5.6 Business, Innovation and Skills (1) when (a) he, (b) and 5.8. Ministers and (c) officials from his Department last met with the EU negotiating team for the Transatlantic EU External Trade: USA Trade and Investment Pact; and whether they discussed investor-state disputes settlement and its potential John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for effect on the national health service; [175252] Business, Innovation and Skills whether a Cabinet (2) whether he has raised the issue of exemption for sub-committee has been established to co-ordinate the the national health service with regard to the Government’s approach to the proposed transatlantic Transatlantic Trade and Investment Pact, as referred to trade and investment partnership. [174753] in the European Commission’s impact assessment on Michael Fallon: Along with other EU trade negotiations, the future of EU/US trade relations. [175253] TTIP falls within the remit of the European Affairs Committee. No new subcommittee has been established Michael Fallon: The Government has not sought to to deal solely with the Transatlantic Trade and Investment exclude health services from the scope of the Transatlantic Partnership (TTIP). Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) negotiations. We have consistently pushed for an ambitious and John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for broad agreement with all issues on the table. Business, Innovation and Skills what mechanisms for Officials from the Department met with the EU Chief co-ordinating the UK’s approach to the proposed Negotiator on the TTIP in London on 31 October. The transatlantic trade and investment partnership have concerns that have been raised about the potential been put in place within government. [174756] impact of the TTIP on the NHS were discussed, as well as the investor-state disputes settlement. Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) is the lead Department within Government The UK has already undertaken some long-standing for all EU trade deals. We work closely with other multilateral level commitments through the general Government Departments, including the Cabinet Office agreement on trade in services (GATS, 1995) on health and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Officials services, and our position during the TTIP negotiations leading the UK work on transatlantic trade and investment will be to go no further than our existing obligations. partnership (TTIP) meet regularly with the relevant The TTIP will not affect the policy that it is for NHS Ministers, including the Secretary of State for Business, commissioners to take decisions on the competitive Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for tendering of services, in the best interests of their patients, Twickenham (Vince Cable), my noble Friend the Minister consistent with the NHS procurement, patient choice of State for Trade and Investment (Lord Green of and competition regulations. 599W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 600W
Exports Michael Fallon: Full details of the remuneration packages for Green Investment Bank (GIB) Board members and Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for the company’s senior management team, including details Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of pensions, long term incentive plans (LTIP) and other of 2 September 2013, Official Report, columns benefits, are set out in the company’s annual report. 130-31W, on arms trade: exports, and subsequent This was published in June 2013 and can be found on correspondence, what estimate he has made of the the company’s website at: relative sizes of the (a) market share of the exporter of http://www.greeninvestmentbank.com/who-we-are/ the licence Mindspeed and its UK subsidiary, Picochip, governance/annual-report.html (b) expected addressable market for the combined The relevant data are provided in the report of the entity of these companies until 2016, (c) value of the Remuneration Committee which also includes an Standard Individual Export Licence (Permanent) for explanation of the principles and policies that underpin equipment employing cryptography and software for the company’s approach to remuneration. These recognise equipment employing cryptography to Israel and (d) the company’s unique position as a publicly owned total combined value of the UK’s annual exports to enterprise charged with investing Government money. Israel. [175208] The report explains that GIB’s Board obtained advice from Pricewaterhouse Coopers on development of the Michael Fallon: We have made no estimate of the company’s LTIP scheme and advice from specialist market share or expected addressable market for Mindspeed recruitment consultants Odgers Berndtson on levels of Technologies UK Ltd or any subsidiaries of that company. remuneration, including advice on the position at The maximum potential value of the exports authorised comparable businesses. The report also notes that the under the licence in question, which was granted in senior management team are not eligible for awards February 2013, is £7.8 billion. Statistics published by under the Annual Incentive Plan. Updated salary the Office for National Statistics show that in 2012 the information is published on GIB’s website every six value of UK exports of goods and services to Israel was months. Under the company’s Articles of Association, £2.4 billion. all decisions relating to the remuneration of the directors, Furniture: Intellectual Property including that of the chief executive officer, require the prior consent of the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Cox: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of Twickenham (Vince Cable) as shareholder. the level of intellectual property infringement in the UK furniture industry; and if he will bring forward Health legislative proposals to create a criminal offence of deliberate registered design infringement. [174895] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Mr Willetts: The Government are aware that made of the potential effect of (a) working very long infringement of intellectual property rights can be a hours, (b) temporary working contracts, (c) caring for significant problem for many UK businesses, for the the elderly and disabled and (d) personal debt on furniture industry this particularly relates to designs wellbeing in the UK. [175191] law. In the Government’s designs consultation, published in July 2012, many respondents highlighted the problems Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the they faced with infringement of their design rights, and Cabinet Office. sought changes in the law to provide better deterrents. The information requested falls within the responsibility Although this consultation covered a range of areas, of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority responses specific to the furniture industry were also to reply. received. The annual cost of design infringement has been estimated by Anti-Copying in Design and NESTA Letter from Peter Fullerton, dated November 2013: at £775 million, but it has not been possible to break As Director-General for the Office for National Statistics, I those figures down by industry sector. have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation & Skills asking The Intellectual Property Bill, which is currently awaiting what assessment he has made of the potential effect of (a) Second Reading in this House, introduces a number of working very long hours, (b) temporary working contracts, (c) measures to assist businesses in the UK. This includes caring for the elderly and disabled and (d) personal debt on the introduction of a criminal sanction for the intentional wellbeing in the UK. (175191). copying of registered designs. It is hoped that this We are unable to provide specific information regarding each measure will act as a deterrent for those seeking to of the above categories, however, the Office for National Statistics profit from others’ designs. (ONS) has published a report in May 2013 entitled ’Measuring National Well-being—What matters most to Personal Well-being?’ Green Investment Bank This report examines factors which are related to individuals’ well-being. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Self-reported health had the strongest association with all the Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish the measures of personal well-being, the second strongest association current salaries paid to (a) each board member and was employment status and the third was relationship status. (b) the 10 highest paid senior executives of the Green People’s sense of choice and contentment with their current situation also seem to be related to their levels of personal Investment Bank (GIB); and if he will provide details well-being. For example, it is not just about having a job that of (i) how the salaries were benchmarked before being matters to personal well-being, but also being content with that agreed and (ii) what bonus options were included in job. Permanent employees who wanted a different or additional each contract for GIB senior executives. [175074] job had lower levels of life satisfaction, feelings that things were 601W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 602W worthwhile, ratings of happiness and increased levels of anxiety EDUCATION on average than those that didn’t want a different or additional job. Also, those who are economically inactive and in caring roles CAFCASS but would rather be in paid work have lower personal well-being than people who are working and content with their jobs. The Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Education report can be accessed from the following weblink: what steps he is taking to improve the overall http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/wellbeing/measuring-national- performance of Children and Family Court Advisory well-being/what-matters-most-to-personal-well-being-in-the- and Support Service. [175243] uk-/art-what-matters-most-to-personal-well-being-in-the-uk- .html Mr Timpson: I monitor the performance of the Children In addition, the ONS published a report in June 2013 entitled and Family Court Advisory and Support Service ’Measuring National Well-being—Self reported financial situation, (CAFCASS) through quarterly performance meetings 2013’. This has information on individuals’ feelings about their with its chair and chief executive. Performance has been household financial situation and how this relates to their well-being, but not specifically about personal debt. The report and reference improving steadily over recent years, for example 99.8% tables are available from the following weblink: of live cases nationally now has an allocated guardian, http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/wellbeing/measuring-national- up from 93.1% in 2009/10. CAFCASS is also meeting well-being/measuring-national-well-being--self-reported- all its key performance indicators (KPI). financial-situation--2013/art-self-reported-financial- It is important to maintain the drive towards situation--2013.html improvement, and I have recently introduced a fifth KPI, which will monitor the percentage of public law Insolvency care cases where CAFCASS is cited as the main reason for an adjournment. Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for CAFCASS is also inspected by Ofsted, which currently Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has inspects local service areas against a national standard. made of the statutory powers available to an insolvency Ofsted will soon be launching a new national inspection practitioner, as an officer of the court, to compel the framework for CAFCASS. disclosure of relevant documents by all parties involved in an administration process; and whether the Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Education investigatory powers available to insolvency how many complaints have been lodged against practitioners to locate relevant documents where Children and Family Court Advisory and Support possession of said documents are denied by individual Service in each of the last 10 years in (a) the UK, (b) parties. [175158] East Anglia and (c) South Suffolk constituency. [175244] Jo Swinson: An administrator already has the power to request information relating to the affairs of the Mr Timpson: The following table sets out the numbers company from all parties involved in an administration of complaints lodged against the Children and Family process and those same parties have a duty to provide Court Advisory and Support Service (CAFCASS) in information and co-operate with the administrator. the relevant areas. The national figures are for England In addition the court can request that any person (CAFCASS does not cover Wales, Scotland and Northern who has in their possession property, books, papers or Ireland). records to which the company is entitled, provide them to the administrator. National East Anglia Suffolk I have not been informed of any cases where an 2005/06 132 3 1 administrator has been unable to recover documents 2006/07 661 27 11 that are required to progress an administration. 2007/08 743 27 10 Students: Loans 2008/09 1,075 47 12 2009/10 1,264 68 11 2010/11 1,064 66 8 Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2011/12 1,265 69 12 Innovation and Skills what recent progress his 2012/13 1,495 88 24 Department has made on the creation and 2013/14 to 880 57 5 implementation of Shariah-compliant student loans date for those potential students who cannot make use of the traditional loan system as a result of their religious This information is taken from the CAFCASS national convictions; and when he expects such a system to be case management system. This is a live system and fully operable. [174636] figures are subject to change as updates are made. The data in the table include both public and private law Mr Willetts: This Department has been working with cases. Islamic banks and Shariah experts to determine whether The data are collated at local area team level. Figures an alternative finance system of student loans is possible. for East Anglia are based on the Suffolk, Norfolk, We have identified a number of approaches and will Essex and Cambridgeshire area teams. Figures for Suffolk be launching a consultation on an alternative finance are based on the Suffolk area team whose boundaries product shortly as announced by the Prime Minister are broadly comparable to those of the Suffolk constituency during his Eid al-Adha reception speech. area. The timing of the implementation of an alternative The figures show a rising trend in complaints. This finance system will depend on when parliamentary time reflects the much higher volume of cases being handled can be secured for the necessary legislation. together with two other factors—the increased advertising 603W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 604W of the complaints service and improvements in the way number of children accessing places at different types of complaints are recorded and the service is delivered. provider is not yet available, but will also be collected The information requested is only available from through the censuses. 2005/06. Children: Hyperactivity Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many cases Children and Family Court Advisory Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for and Support Service has dealt with in each of the last Education if he will make it his policy to introduce 10 years in (a) the UK, (b) East Anglia and (c) South mandatory screening for attention deficit hyperactivity Suffolk constituency. [175245] disorder (ADHD) for all pupils who receive two fixed-term exclusions from school; and if he will Mr Timpson: The following table sets out the numbers provide specialist psychiatric, paediatric or healthcare of cases completed and closed by the Children and support to all such pupils who are diagnosed with Family Court Advisory and Support Service (CAFCASS) ADHD. [175204] in the relevant areas. Mr Timpson: There are no plans to introduce automatic National East Anglia Suffolk screening for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) as schools need the flexibility to determine 2003/04 21,187 994 201 when to assess, based on knowledge of their pupils and 2004/05 35,919 1,928 383 close working with other agencies and pupils’ families. 2005/06 39,026 2,111 527 2006/07 47,296 2,880 768 Improving early identification of, and support for, pupils’ special educational needs (SEN) is a key aim of 2007/08 48,664 3,785 603 the Government’s Children and Families Bill. The revised 2008/09 46,456 3,658 691 SEN code of practice, which is currently being consulted 2009/10 54,093 4,141 709 on, emphasises the importance of schools identifying 2010/11 54,739 3,993 624 the underlying causes of behaviour issues, whether or 2011/12 58,925 2,583 459 not these require special educational provision. The 2012/13 61,732 2,132 420 importance of early assessment of need is also emphasised 2013/14 to date 40,555 1,392 251 in the statutory guidance on exclusion, with head teachers This information is taken from the CAFCASS national being expected to consider the use of multi-agency Case Management System. This is a live system and assessment for pupils who demonstrate persistent disruptive figures are subject to change as updates are made. The behaviour. data in the table include both public and private law Specialist Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services cases. (CAMHS) work with partner agencies, including local The data are collated at local area team level. Figures authorities and schools, to ensure the best possible for East Anglia are based on the Suffolk, Norfolk, outcome for children and young people with ADHD. Essex and Cambridgeshire area teams. Figures for Suffolk Additionally, the Children and Young People’s project are based on the Suffolk area team whose boundaries for the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies are broadly comparable to those of the Suffolk constituency (CYPIAPT) programme is working to improve access area. to CAMHS, deliver positive and measurable outcomes and increase the choice and availability of evidence Children: Day Care based treatments. This includes support therapies such as Parent Training, which is recommended in the National Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) guidelines Education (1) pursuant to the answer of 2 September as first line treatment for mild and moderate ADHD 2013, Official Report, column 64W, on children: day and Systemic Family Practice, which supports conduct care, how many of the most disadvantaged 20 per cent problems in older teenagers. of two-year-olds are accessing a free childcare place; and how many such places are available for this group; Class Sizes [174475] (2) what assessment he has made of the types of Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for childcare provider offering places to disadvantaged two Education how many children were taught in class sizes year olds; and how many childminders are offering of greater than 30 in each year since 2010. [174428] such places. [174355] Mr Laws: Information on class sizes, including the Elizabeth Truss: The entitlement to an early learning percentage of children in classes of greater than 30, was place for the most disadvantaged 20% of two-year-olds published in tables 6a and 6c of the publication ‘Schools, came into force on 1 September. Figures extrapolated pupils and their characteristics, January 2013’, available from the most recent local authority estimates suggest at: that by October 2013 around 92,000 children were https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/schools-pupils- already in funded places. This equates to 70% of the and-their-characteristics-january-2013 130,000 eligible children of the new entitlement, which The School Standards and Framework Act 1998 is great progress. limits the size of infant classes only to 30 pupils per Formal data on the number of two-year-olds in funded school teacher. Additional children may be admitted in places will be gathered through the Early Years and exceptional circumstances, for example, looked-after Schools Censuses which will take place in January 2014 children or children of UK service personnel. This and will be published in summer 2014. Data on the Government is providing capital funding to ensure that 605W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 606W there is not a shortfall in primary places. By the end of Mr Laws: Free school meal information for pupils in the current spending review period, the Department England, East Anglia and South Suffolk constituency will have made over £5 billion in basic need funding for January 2013 is shown in the following tables. This available which, at a national level, is enough for the includes pupils who have full-time attendance and are efficient creation of pupil places needed by 2015-16. aged 15 or under, or have part-time attendance and are This will significantly reduce the pressure on infant aged between five and 15, where age is calculated as at classes. 31 August 2012. Free School Meals The percentage of pupils eligible for free school meals Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Education in the rest of the UK is the responsibility of the Welsh what percentage of school children between the ages of Government, the Scottish Government and the Department five and 16 years old are eligible for free school meals in for Education, Northern Ireland. (a) the UK, (b) East Anglia and (c) South Suffolk constituency. [175261]
Maintained nursery, state-funded primary, state-funded secondary schools, special schools and pupil referral units1, 2, 3, 4, 5: number of pupils eligible for and claiming free school meals, January 2013, England, East Anglia and South Suffolk constituency Maintained nursery and state-funded State-funded secondary schools1, 3 Special schools4 primary schools1, 2 Number of pupils Percentage known Number of pupils Percentage known Number of pupils Percentage known known to be eligible to be eligible for known to be eligible to be eligible for known to be eligible to be eligible for for and claiming and claiming free for and claiming and claiming free for and claiming and claiming free LA code free school meals6, 7 school meals free school meals6, 7 school meals free school meals6, 7 school meals
England 776,445 19.2 452,600 16.3 31,655 38.3 East Anglia8 26,170 15.5 14,850 12.2 1,036 34.9 South Suffolk 677 11.5 442 9.1 15 26.8 Constituency
Pupil referral units5 Total Number of pupils known to be Percentage known to be Number of pupils known to be Percentage known to be eligible for and claiming free eligible for and claiming free eligible for and claiming free eligible for and claiming free LA code school meals6, 7 school meals school meals6, 7 school meals
England 5,070 40.1 1,265,770 18.3 East Anglia8 145 26.7 42,200 14.3 South Suffolk Constituency 3 50.0 1,135 10.5 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes all primary academies, including free schools. 3 Includes city technology colleges and all secondary academies, including free schools, university technical colleges and studio schools. 4 Excludes general hospital schools. Includes special academies and free schools. 5 Includes pupils in Alternative Provision academies and free schools. 6 Includes pupils who are sole or dual main registrations. Includes boarders. In pupil referral units also includes pupils registered with other providers and further education colleges. 7 Pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals who have full-time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part-time attendance and are aged between five and 15. 8 East Anglia includes Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Peterborough and Suffolk local authorities. Note: Total figures have been rounded to the nearest five to prevent disclosure of small numbers (e.g. when used in conjunction with data held elsewhere) therefore totals may not appear to equal the sum of the component parts. Source: School Census.
Free Schools direct that the management of a free school be removed or replaced are set out. [175175] Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the process is for closing a free school. Mr Timpson: A free school is legally an academy. The [174952] Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), powers Mr Timpson: A free school is legally an academy. The to intervene in an academy or a free school are specified Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend in the funding agreement between the Secretary of State the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove)’s powers and the academy trust. Free school and academy funding to intervene in an underperforming academy or a free agreements are published on the Department for school are specified in the funding agreement between Education’s website as a matter of course, once the the Secretary of State and the academy trust. Closing a school has opened. school would involve terminating the funding agreement http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/ between the Secretary of State and the academy trust, without contracting with another party to run the school. Free school and academy funding agreements are published Headteachers on the Department for Education’s website as a matter of course once the school has opened. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the average pay for a headteacher was Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for in (a) academy and (b) other schools in the most Education where the powers his Department has to recent period for which figures are available. [174513] 607W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 608W
Mr Laws: Data on average pay of leadership teachers the overall effectiveness of the school, inspectors also by type of school are available in the publication ‘School report on the provision for the spiritual, moral, social workforce in England: November 2012’, Table 9b, available and cultural development of pupils and on the development at: of pupils physical well-being. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/school- workforce-in-england-november-2012 Schools: Playing Fields Primary Education: Standards Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education on how many occasions his Department has Mr Yeo: To ask the Secretary of State for Education overruled the Schools Playing Fields Advisory Panel what proportion of primary schools have been rated since September 2012; and what the reason for each (a) outstanding, (b) good, (c) satisfactory and (d) such case was. [174647] inadequate by Ofsted in (i) the UK, (ii) East Anglia and (iii) South Suffolk constituency in the most recent Mr Laws: The Secretary of State for Education, my period for which figures are available. [175246] right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), has overruled the Schools Playing Fields Advisory Mr Laws: This question is a matter for Ofsted. I have Panel only once since September 2012. This was an asked Sir Michael Wilshaw, Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, application by Warwickshire county council to dispose to write to the hon. Member. A copy of his reply will be of land at the former Griff Special School, Nuneaton, placed in the House Library. Warwickshire. The panel did not object to the actual Schools: Finance loss of this unused playing field, but highlighted specifically that any potential proceeds of sale would be lost to sport or educational investment, as the land was to be Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for ’peppercorn’ leased to a charitable housing association Education pursuant to the answer of 22 October 2013, to provide housing for senior citizens. Acting directly Official Report, column 1114W, on free money, how upon the advice of the panel, the Secretary of State much was returned to his Department after (a) made this disposal conditional on Warwickshire county opening of free schools, (b) opening of new sixth council investing a sum equal to the value of the land forms and (c) opening of all other new institutions into education or sport, from funds not ring-fenced for within the schools sector following the failure to recruit education. The former school has been closed for eight predicted numbers in the year groups affected in (i) years and the playing field land has not been used by a 2011-12 and (ii) 2012-13. [173886] local school or the wider community in this time. Sport England did not object to the council’s planning application Mr Timpson: A total value of £239,176 will be returned and at consultation there were no objections to the loss to the Department from new free schools which did not of the unused playing field. Details of this decision were recruit the predicted pupil numbers in 2012/13. No published on the Department’s website in July. repayment was due for 2011/12. In respect of new academy school sixth forms in Sick Leave 2011/12 and 2012/13 the sums for recovery are £1,421,569 and £762,726 respectively.These are due to the Department David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for in the following academic year. Education how many staff in his Department (a) were Any other new institutions opening in the maintained disciplined and (b) had their employment terminated sector are subject to local authority funding arrangements, as a result of a poor sickness record in each of the last which are not reported in detail to the Department. 12 months. [174630] This will also involve the return of funding to local authorities. Elizabeth Truss: The following table shows the Department for Education’s figures for the period 1 October Schools: Health 2012 to 7 November 20131:
Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) Number of staff Education what instructions his Department has given (a) Number of staff dismissed due to a to Ofsted inspectors in respect of the inspection of Month/year disciplined poor sickness record wellbeing in schools since 2010. [175028] 2012 October 0 0 Mr Laws: The current school inspection framework November 0 0 reflects the statutory reporting requirements set out in December 0 0 section 5 of the Education Act 2005, as amended by the Education Act 2011. 2013 In judging a school, inspectors make four key judgements, reflecting the areas on which the Chief Inspector must January Less than 5 0 report. These are pupil achievement; the quality of February 0 0 teaching; effectiveness of leadership and management; March 0 0 and the behaviour and safety of pupils. Within the April Less than 5 0 leadership assessment, inspectors consider how well the May 0 0 school helps pupils to prepare for life in modern democratic June Less than 5 0 Britain and a global society, as well as the effectiveness July 0 0 of safeguarding arrangements at the school. In assessing August 0 0 609W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 610W
Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) Number of staff (a) Number of staff dismissed due to a Education if he will publish in respect of each Month/year disciplined poor sickness record accredited initial teacher training provider for 2014-15 (a) the total provisional core primary allocations, (b) September Less than 5 0 the provisional core allocations for each secondary October 0 0 subject, (c) the number of School Direct primary November (to 7 00places provisionally linked to each provider and (d) the November) number of School Direct places by secondary subject 1 Specific numbers have not been shown on the grounds of confidentiality. provisionally linked to each provider. [174327] Sign Language Mr Laws: The National College for Teaching and Leadership (NCTL) has written to lead schools and Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for initial teaching training (ITT) providers (school centred Education (1) what assessment his Department has ITTs and higher education institutions) to inform them made of the relationship between the learning, skills of their ITT allocations. Institutions will confirm the and teaching involved in learning sign language and in number of places they want in the coming weeks. To learning other languages; [174576] help inform applicants’ decisions, NCTL will publish a full list of the places allocated by lead school and ITT (2) if he will take steps to include British Sign provider before the end of the month, once schools and Language within the modern foreign language group of providers have had a chance to respond to our proposed subjects in the national curriculum. [174577] allocations. It would be misleading to state precisely which schools and universities received allocations before Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education that time. recognises the importance of British Sign Language. The new national curriculum programmes of study Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for for languages contain a number of requirements that Education with reference to the provisional teacher could not be met through British Sign Language, for training allocations published by his Department on example at key stage 2 the requirement to describe 1 November 2013, how many places from each people, places, things and actions in writing; and at key accredited providers initial teacher training allocations stage 3 writing prose in the target language. are for (a) each phase, (b) each secondary subject, (c) core provision and (d) School Direct provision. This does not mean that British Sign Language cannot [174808] be a rigorous and challenging subject which schools might choose to teach in addition to foreign languages. Mr Laws: The National College for Teaching and The Department is supporting schools that choose to Leadership (NCTL) has written to lead schools and do so by funding the I-Sign project, which aims to initial teacher training (ITT) providers (school-centred improve the skills and qualifications of support workers initial teacher training and higher education institutions) in schools who help pupils using sign language. The to inform them of their ITT allocations. As stated on 1 project also provides classes and support to parents, November, NCTL will publish a full list of the places and has developed an online course. allocated by lead school and ITT provider in due course, once they have had the opportunity to confirm their Teachers: Training allocations. The published data will contain a summative breakdown of allocations by phase of education, subject and training route. Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Education with reference to the Initial Teacher Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Training core and School Direct allocations for Education with reference to the provisional teacher 2014-15, published by the National College for training allocations published by his Department on Teaching and Leadership on 1 November 2013, if he 1 November 2013, how many places have been will publish a breakdown of those allocations by (a) allocated to (a) higher education institutions, (b) the primary and secondary phases and (b) individual school-centred initial teacher training, (c) School secondary subjects; and if he will apportion the School Direct fee-paying, (d) School Direct salaried, (e) other Direct primary and secondary allocations by the types of provision, (f) primary phase, (g) secondary salaried and fee paying routes. [174319] phase and (h) each individual secondary subject. [174809] Mr Laws: The National College for Teaching and Leadership (NCTL) has written to lead schools and Mr Laws: Management information published by the initial teacher training (ITT) providers (school centred Department on 1 November shows the breakdown of ITTs and higher education institutions) to inform them provisional allocations by the type of initial teacher of their ITT allocations. Institutions will confirm the training (ITT) programme and academic level1. number of places they want in the coming weeks. To As stated on 1 November, the National College for help inform applicants’ decisions, NCTL will publish a Teaching and Leadership will publish a full list of the full list of the places allocated by lead school and ITT places allocated by lead school and ITT provider in due provider. The published data will also contain a summative course, once they have had the opportunity to confirm breakdown of allocations by phase of education, subject their allocations. The published data is intended to help and training route. This data will be published before inform applicants’ decisions and will also contain a the end of the month, once schools and providers have summative breakdown of allocations by phase of education, had a chance to respond to our proposed allocations. subject and training route. 611W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 612W
1 Available at: Mr Laws: The Department for Education does not http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/careers/ hold the data requested. The Department holds data on traininganddevelopment/initial/b00205704/ the number of candidates who were declined, but not schooldirect?cid=school-direct&type=redirect&pla=201112 whether the decision was made by the school or the partner provider. Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what budget the National College for Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Teaching and Leadership has set for promotion and Education how many applicants to School Direct in advertisement of (a) core allocation and (b) School 2012-13 had a UK undergraduate degree that was (a) Direct routes for entry in academic year 2014-15. first class, (b) second class, upper division (2.1), (c) [174891] second class, lower division (2.2), (d) third class and (e) ordinary degree (pass). [175026] Mr Laws: The Department for Education plans to spend around £2.9 million on promotion and advertising to support recruitment to initial teacher training over Mr Laws: The information requested is not readily the next 12 months. This marketing budget is not broken available and could be obtained only at disproportionate down into core allocation and School Direct routes. cost. Information on the degree class of trainee teachers in Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012-13 was published in the Initial Teacher Training Education how many trainees (a) started the School Census (November 2012), available at: Direct programme in 2012-13 and (b) having started https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/initial-teacher- that programme, did not achieve Qualified Teacher training-trainee-number-census Status. [175010] Information about the degree class of School Direct
1 applicants who commenced their training in the academic Mr Laws: 400 trainees started a School Direct in year 2013-14 will be published in the Initial Teacher programme 2012/13. Outcomes of training, including Training Census in November 2013. award of qualified teacher status and employment in teaching within six months of completing training, will Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for be published in the initial teacher training performance Education what proportion of teachers in each profiles in late 2014. Government office region underwent their initial 1 Numbers are rounded to the nearest 10. teacher training within that region. [175055] Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he plans to apply automatic Mr Laws: This question cannot be answered without penalties for under-recruitment to School Direct places incurring disproportionate cost. in the present academic year. [175011] Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laws: The School Direct allocations methodology Education what proportion of higher education for 2014/15 initial teacher training allocations was published institutions with an Outstanding Ofsted rating have in July 20131. been granted a smaller core allocation for initial 1https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/school-direct- teacher training for academic year 2014-15 than in allocations-methodology-academic-year-2014-to-2015 2012-13. [175070]
Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laws: In June 2012, the Secretary of State for Education when he expects to publish his evaluation of Education, the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath the School Direct programme. [175012] (Michael Gove), announced a two-year guarantee of places for ‘outstanding’ providers. The guarantee covers Mr Laws: There are a number of measures by which any phase of provision currently graded ‘outstanding’ the Department monitors and evaluates initial teacher by Ofsted for overall effectiveness. If they request them, training (ITT), including trainees on the School Direct any provider with provision in this category will receive scheme. These include the number and quality of trainees; at least the same number of places they were allocated success rates; and progression into employment. The for 2012-13. If a provider requests less than their guaranteed Department also surveys the views of trainees. All data number of places, we will allocate the smaller number. are published regularly on the Department’s website. In addition, Ofsted inspects ITT providers and publishes The National College for Teaching and Leadership its reports. intends to publish a full list of the places allocated by lead school and initial teacher training provider in the Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for next few weeks, once institutions have had a chance to Education how many schools recruited through School respond to our proposed allocations, which were released Direct in 2012-13 for trainees to start in 2013. [175013] on 1 November. An analysis of the allocations received by ’’outstanding’ higher education institution providers Mr Laws: The data requested will be published in a cannot be provided before this publication. Statistical First Release on 26 November 2013, as part of the Initial Teacher Training Census. Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what proportion of initial teacher training Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for allocated places for academic year 2014-15 have been Education how many School Direct candidates were granted to lead institutions with an (a) Outstanding, declined by partner Initial Teacher Training providers (b) Good, (c) Requires improvement and (d) after they had been selected by a school. [175024] Inadequate Ofsted rating. [175071] 613W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 614W
Mr Laws: Information regarding allocations to lead (c) Core allocation (undergraduate) and (d) Core institutions by Ofsted rating is not available at this time. allocation (School Centred Initial Teacher Training) As stated on 1 November, the National College for has the National College for Teaching and Leadership Teaching and Leadership will publish a full list of the calculated will need to be filled in academic year places allocated by lead school and initial teacher training 2014-15 in order for the overall recruitment target to be (ITT) provider in due course, once they have had the met. [175137] opportunity to confirm their allocations. Mr Laws: Management information published by the ITT providers or lead schools graded by Ofsted in Department on 1 November shows the breakdown of their last inspection as ’requires improvement’ or provisional allocations by the type of initial teacher ’inadequate’ were not allocated postgraduate ITT places. training programme and academic level1. Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for The allocation number for individual training Education what proportion of initial teacher training programmes are not targets and should not be regarded allocated places for academic year (a) 2012-13 and (b) as such. 2013-14 were granted to lead institutions with an (A) 1 Available at: Outstanding, (B) Good, (C) Requires improvement http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/careers/ and (D) Inadequate Ofsted rating. [175072] traininganddevelopment/initial/b00205704/ schooldirect?cid=school-direct&type=redirect&pla=201112 Mr Laws: Core initial teacher training (ITT) places Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for were allocated to ITT providers and School Direct Education what proportion of teachers working in places were allocated to lead schools for 2012/13 and each government region underwent their initial teacher 2013/14. training within that region. [175144] The proportion of core ITT places allocated to ITT providers at each Ofsted grade in 2012/13 is shown in Mr Laws: This question cannot be answered without the following table. Information on the Ofsted grade of incurring disproportionate cost. the lead schools that received an allocation of School Direct places in 2012/13 is not readily available.
Proportion of core places allocated HEALTH for the 2012/13 academic year Ofsted grade of ITT provider (percentage) Cancer: Drugs
Outstanding 52 Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Good 45 what recent discussions he has had with the National Requires improvement 1 Institute for Health and Care Excellence about health Inadequate 1 technology assessment methodologies for appraising No inspection grade 1 cancer medicines; and if he will make a statement. The proportion of ITT places allocated to schools [174619] and ITT providers at each Ofsted grade in 2013/14 is Norman Lamb: Ministers have had no such discussions. shown in the following table. However, as part of our plans to introduce value-based pricing for new medicines, including new cancer medicines, Percentage we have given the National Institute for Health and Proportion of School Proportion of core Direct places allocated Care Excellence (NICE) terms of reference for the Ofsted grade of ITT places allocated for the for the 2013/14 development of a broader value assessment of new provider or school 2013/14 academic year academic year medicines which are available on its website at: Outstanding 54 69 www.nice.org.uk/media/9A4/92/ Good 39 22 DH_VBP_Terms_of_Reference.pdf Requires improvement or 34Following feedback from patients’ groups that they satisfactory would welcome further opportunities to feed into the Inadequate 0 0 development of the new arrangements, we have now No inspection grade 3 5 agreed that NICE will carry out a full public consultation before the methods for broader value assessment are Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for implemented in autumn 2014. Education if he will publish the number of School Direct trainees recruited for the 2013-14 academic year CJD for each subject, by the government region of the lead institution. [175136] Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps his Department has put in place to Mr Laws: The data requested are not available prior monitor the number of people who carry the abnormal to publication of the national level statistics. prion protein which causes variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease; [174628] These are due to be published in the statistical first release on 26 November 2013, as part of the initial (2) when he plans that screening of the abnormal teacher training census. prion protein which causes variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease will be introduced; [174631] Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) what assessment he has made of the number of Education what proportion of the overall (a) School people who carry the abnormal prion protein which Direct allocation, (b) Core allocation (postgraduate), causes variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. [174633] 615W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 616W
Jane Ellison: The presence of abnormal prion protein (c) the East Midlands who might benefit from a is currently taken as a marker for asymptomatic carriage cochlear implant. [175147] of variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease or for symptomatic infection. A recent study to assess carriage by looking at Norman Lamb: The Department has made no assessment stored appendix tissue samples, first published in the of the number of adults in Nottingham, Nottinghamshire Health Protection Report in August 2012, found abnormal and the East Midlands who might benefit from a cochlear prion protein in 16 appendices out of 32,441 samples. implant. This suggests a prevalence of about 1 in 2,000. There is no monitoring of people who may carry the Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for abnormal prion protein; all appendix prevalence studies Health what estimate he has made of the number of are anonymised. cochlear implants fitted to adults in (a) Nottingham, No routine screening can yet take place as there are (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) the East Midlands in the no suitable validated screening tests for abnormal prion last year. [175159] protein available. The Department, together with the United Kingdom Blood Services, continues to monitor, Norman Lamb: Information is not available in the scientific research and development in this area. format requested. Information on the total number of finished consultant episodes (FCE) with an operative Cochlear Implants: East Midlands procedure of cochlear implant for adult patients resident in the former Nottingham City Primary Care Trust Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for (PCT) area, Nottinghamshire, and the former East Health what assessment he has made of the number of Midlands Strategic Health Authority (SHA) area in adults in (a) Nottingham, (b) Nottinghamshire and 2012-13 is shown in the following table:
Area of residence Total FCEs
Nottingham City PCT * Nottinghamshire 7 East Midlands SHA 39 Notes: 1. A FCE is a continuous period of admitted patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FCEs are counted against the year in which they end. Figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or in different stays in the same year. 2. Number of episodes with a main or secondary procedure: The number of episodes where the procedure (or intervention) was recorded in any of the 24 procedure fields in a HES record. A record is only included once in each count, even if the procedure is recorded in more than one procedure field of the record. Note that more procedures are carried out than episodes with a main or secondary procedure. For example, patients undergoing a “cataract operation” would tend to have at least two procedures—removal of the faulty lens and the fitting of a new one—counted in a single episode. 3. Patients resident in Nottinghamshire are defined as those resident within the Nottingham City PCT, Bassetlaw PCT and Nottinghamshire County Teaching PCT boundaries. 4. SHA/PCT of residence: The SHA or PCT containing the patient’s normal home address. This does not necessarily reflect where patients were treated as they may have travelled to another SHA/PCT for treatment. 5. To protect patient confidentiality, figures between one and five have been replaced with ‘*’ (an asterisk). Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre
Continuing Care in England based on a sample. It includes consultations by GPs, nurses and other clinicians. Consultations include Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Health visits to surgery, telephone consultations, home visits what estimate he has made of the cost of dispensing and consultations at other locations. A link to the data drugs to patients with long-term conditions on a is available at: 28-day prescription cycle. [174600] http://www.hscic.gov.uk/catalogue/PUB01077
Norman Lamb: No such estimate has been made. Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State There has been no Government directive to specify the for Health what recent discussions he has had with (a) length of time for which prescriptions should be issued. the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence and (b) Public Health England on the Quality and General Practitioners Outcomes Framework. [174665]
Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Jane Ellison: NHS England asked the National Institute how many visits were made to a GP in each of the last for Health and Care Excellence to undertake a piece of 10 years. [174639] work to inform a review of indicators within the clinical and public health domains within the Quality and Outcomes Dr Poulter: The Health and Social Care Information Framework (QOF). NHS England has also sought on-going Centre does not hold data on how many visits were advice from Public Health England throughout the made to a general practitioner (GP) in each of the last process of reviewing indicators in the QOF. This advice 10 years. will feed into the on-going discussions on the General However information about trends in consultation Medical Services (GMS) contract. rates in general practice was published up until 2009, in The GMS contract is negotiated by NHS Employers ‘Trends in Consultation Rates in General Practice—1995- on behalf of NHS England. The outcome of the GMS 2009’. This report estimates the number of consultations contract negotiations will be published in due course. 617W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 618W
Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Deaf Hard of hearing for Health (1) if he will direct Public Health England to prioritise the development of a Quality and Outcomes East Midlands 5,020 13,355 Framework indicator that would award points to GPs Notes: who advise, prescribe and recommend appropriate 1. Data was historically submitted by CASSRs every three years. The guidance and support for obese and overweight most recently available data is at 31 March 2010. Following a review patients; [174666] of returns collected by the HSCIC, the number of people registered as deaf is no longer collected centrally. (2) what steps he will take to incentivise GPs to 2. In order to find the figure for the geographical area of Nottinghamshire, advise, prescribe and recommend appropriate guidance the figures for Nottingham and Nottinghamshire councils must be and support for obese and overweight patients. [174667] totalled. 3. The figures reflect the definitions of the return from CASSRs, not necessarily ‘severe to profound hearing loss’. Jane Ellison: General practitioners and other health 4. The 2009-10 SSDA910 publication is available on the Health and and care professionals have a key role in ″making every Social Care Information Centre website at: contact count″ by identifying overweight children and www.hscic.gov.uk/pubs/regdeafl0 adults, and supporting them with an appropriate 5. The guidance document for the SSDA910 return for the year intervention or referral and on-going management. 2009-10 is available on the Health and Social Care Information Centre website at: Public Health England is delivering key programmes http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120802111034/http:// such as NHS health checks and the National Child www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/Services/Social%20care/Collections%200910/ Measurement Programme to help identify overweight SSDA910/SSDA910%20Deaf%20and%20Hard%20of%20Hearing% and obesity so local authorities can plan and deliver 202009-10%20v1.0.pdf Source. services. Registers for Deaf People from CASSRs (SSDA910), Health and NHS England asked the National Institute for Health Social Care Information Centre (HSCIC). and Care Excellence to undertake a piece of work to inform a review of indicators within the clinical and Heart Diseases public health domains within the Quality and Outcomes Framework. NHS England also sought advice from Stuart Andrew: To ask the Secretary of State for Public Health England. This advice will feed into the Health whether a new health and equality impact on-going discussions on the General Medical Services assessment will be undertaken for the new congenital (GMS) contract. heart disease review; and which body is responsible for The GMS contract is negotiated by National Health commissioning such assessments. [175218] Service Employers on behalf of NHS England. The outcome of the GMS contract negotiations will be Jane Ellison: NHS England is responsible for conducting published in due course. the new review of congenital heart disease services and is committed to a review that is robust, transparent and Glaucoma inclusive, in the interests of delivering high quality and sustainable services for all patients. Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS England advises that if the review develops Health what assessment his Department has made of proposals to change the form and function of services the availability of the Xalatan form of the drug then appropriate impact assessments will be undertaken. latanoprost at UK pharmacies. [175282] Information on the detail of the new review can be Norman Lamb: Pharmacies can obtain Xalatan found on NHS England’s website at: (latanoprost) eye drops through the wholesaler, Alliance www.england.nhs.uk/ourwork/qual-clin-lead/chd/ Healthcare. Supplies are available. Any pharmacy who experiences difficulties obtaining stock can contact the Insulin manufacturer, Pfizer, who will investigate further. Hearing Impairment: East Midlands Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to monitor Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for access to insulin pump therapy in (a) Stafford and (b) Health what recent estimate he has made of the England. [174728] number of adults in (a) Nottingham, (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) the East Midlands with a Jane Ellison: The Department does not monitor access severe to profound hearing loss. [175160] to insulin pump therapy and does not hold this information centrally. Norman Lamb: Information is not available in the It is for NHS England to ensure that commissioners format requested. Information on the number of adults and providers make insulin pumps available for those registered as deaf or hard of hearing at 31 March 2010 people with diabetes that meet the criteria recommended for Nottingham city council, Nottinghamshire county by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence council, and for all councils with adult social services (NICE). responsibilities (CASSRs) in the east midlands area is shown in the following table. The first ever United Kingdom-wide audit of insulin pump use was sponsored by the Association of British Deaf Hard of hearing Clinical Diabetologists, Diabetes UK and the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation with support from NICE. Nottingham 720 560 It involves the participation of 97% of hospital trusts Nottinghamshire 835 1,125 that provide insulin pump services. 619W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 620W
Malnutrition Norman Lamb: The table shows a count of finished admission episodes for patients with a primary or secondary diagnosis of malnutrition in England and each primary Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State care trust (PCT) area of responsibility for the last five for Health how many people were admitted to hospital years. with malnutrition in (a) England, (b) each primary care trust area of responsibility and (c) each current This is not a count of patients as the same patient clinical commissioning group area of responsibility in may be admitted more than once in a financial year. each of the last five years for which data are available. The information is not available for each current [175168] clinical commissioning group area of responsibility.
Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Area 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
England 3,161 3,773 4,657 5,377 5,499 PCT Area of Responsibility: Ashton, Leigh And Wigan PCT 20 28 23 29 42 Barking and Dagenham PCT * * * 13 12 Barnet PCT 11 33 29 26 38 Barnsley PCT * 18 11 17 14 Bassetlaw PCT 9 7 13 18 22 Bath and North East Somerset PCT 10 13 26 29 27 Bedfordshire PCT 43 39 23 33 44 Berkshire East PCT 26 22 20 25 22 Berkshire West PCT 105 31 43 33 22 Bexley Care Trust 15 10 16 28 26 Birmingham East And North PCT 30 25 39 54 43 Blackburn with Darwen PCT — 8 — — — Blackburn with Darwen Teaching Care Trust Plus — — 10 10 6 Blackpool PCT * 8 16 13 15 Bolton PCT 10 17 42 62 70 Bournemouth And Poole Teaching PCT 38 26 29 49 57 Bradford and Airedale Teaching PCT 56 74 114 158 113 Brent Teaching PCT 10 19 39 30 38 Brighton and Hove City PCT 22 18 41 34 39 Bristol PCT 33 37 34 48 41 Bromley PCT 9 9 16 24 28 Buckinghamshire PCT 30 24 39 16 33 Bury PCT 13 11 17 21 9 Calderdale PCT 6 * 6 8 15 Cambridgeshire PCT 18 18 37 35 35 Camden PCT 6 13 20 32 53 Central and Eastern Cheshire PCT 18 20 30 43 41 Central Lancashire PCT 22 28 36 49 31 City and Hackney Teaching PCT 24 30 27 33 32 Cornwall and Isles of Scilly PCT 63 79 92 130 118 County Durham PCT 17 32 42 28 44 Coventry Teaching PCT 11 25 23 45 28 Croydon PCT 12 11 17 40 27 Cumbria Teaching PCT 24 39 22 33 51 Darlington PCT * 10 * * 10 Derby City PCT 10 12 24 16 16 Derbyshire County PCT 31 31 32 47 41 Devon PCT 62 65 84 83 72 Doncaster PCT 9 16 18 25 28 Dorset PCT 37 57 36 51 42 Dudley PCT 27 35 26 18 35 Ealing PCT 14 25 15 39 30 East and North Hertfordshire PCT 13 20 — — — East Lancashire Teaching PCT 14 34 25 27 16 East Riding of Yorkshire PCT 13 19 20 24 15 East Sussex Downs and Weald PCT 17 16 24 35 23 Eastern and Coastal Kent PCT 20 37 39 36 44 Enfield PCT 12 15 21 31 26 Gateshead PCT 35 43 59 63 40 Gloucestershire PCT 25 29 51 50 44 Great Yarmouth and Waveney PCT 13 25 27 32 27 Greenwich Teaching PCT 14 25 38 40 23 621W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 622W
Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Area 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
Halton and St Helens PCT 20 16 34 48 45 Hammersmith and Fulham PCT 31 14 15 14 18 Hampshire PCT 93 109 134 135 101 Haringey Teaching PCT 29 19 16 30 36 Harrow PCT 10 10 15 33 25 Hartlepool PCT * 9 11 9 11 Hastings and Rother PCT * 7 6 22 29 Havering PCT 10 7 10 21 12 Heart of Birmingham Teaching PCT 10 29 32 23 42 Herefordshire PCT 9 7 9 9 10 Hertfordshire PCT — — 73 69 82 Heywood, Middleton and Rochdale PCT 14 16 23 18 22 Hillingdon PCT 8 20 18 30 43 Hounslow PCT 26 12 7 20 25 Hull Teaching PCT 11 14 21 31 33 Isle of Wight NHS PCT 27 35 41 24 28 Islington PCT 13 15 20 29 33 Kensington and Chelsea PCT 10 12 20 38 21 Kingston PCT 8 8 16 11 6 Kirklees PCT 9 10 33 23 26 Knowsley PCT 8 6 18 17 17 Lambeth PCT 17 15 32 28 27 Leeds PCT 30 40 68 83 93 Leicester City PCT 27 23 28 35 37 Leicestershire County and Rutland PCT 47 69 63 55 43 Lewisham PCT 7 16 19 25 17 Lincolnshire Teaching PCT 34 41 45 34 32 Liverpool PCT 37 43 47 58 51 Luton PCT 24 19 24 27 25 Manchester PCT 37 29 61 77 66 Medway PCT 12 19 17 21 19 Mid Essex PCX 12 13 17 21 12 Middlesbrough PCT 8 8 16 11 6 Milton Keynes PCT 11 21 29 21 22 Newcastle PCT 20 31 20 33 35 Newham PCT 20 18 28 31 35 Norfolk PCT 31 43 49 52 58 North East Essex PCT 12 37 20 29 20 North East Lincolnshire Care Trust Plus * * 9 6 15 North Lancashire Teaching PCT 19 14 30 22 32 North Lincolnshire PCT * * * * * North Somerset PCT 7 11 8 21 12 North Staffordshire PCT * 22 19 25 31 North Tyneside PCT 17 20 29 36 35 North Yorkshire and York PCT 36 69 54 58 77 Northamptonshire Teaching PCT 37 37 28 40 35 Northumberland Care Trust 17 32 49 37 33 Nottingham City PCT 17 31 36 38 51 Nottinghamshire County Teaching PCT 57 53 66 55 64 Oldham PCT * 10 23 15 17 Oxfordshire PCT 31 28 39 50 54 Peterborough PCT 11 13 8 10 13 Plymouth Teaching PCT 40 62 57 57 66 Portsmouth City Teaching PCT 14 32 31 36 25 Redbridge PCT 6 * 15 9 18 Redcar and Cleveland PCT * 10 15 11 10 Richmond and Twickenham PCT 8 11 15 8 10 Rotherham PCT 7 10 10 18 10 Salford PCT 22 33 49 64 60 Sandwell PCT 29 16 35 51 34 SeftonPCT 819221929 Sheffield PCT 54 22 30 29 27 Shropshire County PCT 8 11 26 23 23 Solihull Care Trust 13 11 17 — — Solihull PCT — — — 14 16 623W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 624W
Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Area 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
Somerset PCT 30 81 93 110 215 South Birmingham PCT 19 21 26 28 49 South East Essex PCT 29 27 33 22 41 South Gloucestershire PCT * 25 13 23 18 South Staffordshire PCT 22 43 40 59 50 South Tyneside PCT 6 27 33 25 25 South West Essex PCT 15 20 26 20 41 Southampton City PCT 39 45 53 43 44 Southwark PCT 27 28 17 18 23 Stockport PCT 19 21 18 37 55 Stockton-On-Tees Teaching PCT 8 * 26 21 13 Stoke On Trent PCT 18 27 23 26 58 Suffolk PCT 36 61 48 72 77 Sunderland Teaching PCT 9 12 14 21 31 Surrey PCT 33 50 81 80 84 Sutton and Merton PCT 18 19 30 31 39 Swindon PCT 14 21 28 26 20 Tameside and Glossop PCT 9 15 25 34 10 Telford and Wrekin PCT 9 6 * 14 8 Torbay Care Trust 22 15 9 18 28 Tower Hamlets PCT 12 14 19 20 12 Trafford PCT 9 9 24 29 40 Wakefield District PCT 21 17 23 20 32 Walsall Teaching PCT 13 16 26 63 38 Waltham Forest PCT 8 21 17 14 19 Wandsworth PCT 11 16 37 34 29 Warrington PCT 12 15 27 16 27 Warwickshire PCT 42 36 41 51 35 West Essex PCT 19 14 24 50 27 West Hertfordshire PCT 25 45 — — — West Kent PCT 33 23 40 39 44 West Sussex PCT 84 80 91 118 101 Western Cheshire PCT 18 20 16 20 19 Westminster PCT 20 20 33 48 50 Wiltshire PCT 43 33 52 52 54 Wirral PCT 31 24 32 47 89 Wolverhampton City PCT 14 15 38 41 42 Worcestershire PCT 30 22 31 38 47 Not applicable 18 21 25 32 32 Unknown * * * * * Note: To protect patient confidentiality; figures between 1 and 5 have been replaced with “*” (an asterisk), Where it was still possible to identify figures from the total, additional figures have been replaced with “*”.
Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State secondary diagnosis of malnutrition for England and for Health how many patients were discharged from by primary care trust (PCT) of responsibility for the hospital with malnutrition in (a) England, (b) each year 2008-09 to 2012-13. primary care trust area of responsibility and (c) each This indicates one of the last diagnoses that a particular current clinical commissioning group area of patient was being treated for, it is not the diagnosis at responsibility in each of the last five years for which the moment the patient is discharged as information on data are available. [175169] the diagnoses that a patient has on leaving hospital is not collected. As such the presence of a diagnosis of Norman Lamb: The information requested is not malnutrition on the discharge episode does not imply collected centrally. However, the following table shows a they were still malnourished when discharged from count of finished discharge episodes with a primary or hospital.
Code PCT of responsibility 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
— England 3,633 4,412 5,558 6,409 6,691 5HG Ashton, Leigh and Wigan PCT 20 29 29 29 51 5C2 Barking and Dagenham PCT 8 8 7 15 14 5A9 Barnet PCT 12 30 36 29 46 5JE Barnsley PCT * 19 11 14 20 5ET Bassetlaw PCT 8 7 12 26 34 5FL Bath and North East Somerset PCT 10 14 28 33 35 625W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 626W
Code PCT of responsibility 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
5P2 Bedfordshire PCT 49 41 30 39 65 5QG Berkshire East PCT 32 24 25 32 26 5QF Berkshire West PCT 119 31 43 38 19 TAK Bexley Care Trust 16 11 16 28 28 SPG Birmingham East and North PCT 36 30 43 57 52 5CC Blackburn with Darwen PCT 0 * 0 0 0 TAP Blackburn with Darwen Teaching Care Trust 0 0 12 15 6 Plus 5HP Blackpool PCT 7 9 22 19 23 5HQ Bolton PCT 13 15 51 64 86 5QN Bournemouth and Poole Teaching PCT 44 34 34 54 68 5NY Bradford and Airedale Teaching PCT 62 75 120 164 128 5K5 Brent Teaching PCT 8 20 40 32 42 5LQ Brighton and Hove City PCT 23 22 50 38 48 5QJ Bristol PCT 36 49 43 56 54 5A7 Bromley PCT 10 9 16 24 39 5QD Buckinghamshire PCT 33 25 38 23 38 5JX Bury PCT 13 12 21 22 14 5J6 Calderdale PCT 6 6 7 10 18 5PP Cambridgeshire PCT 20 20 35 42 44 5K7 Camden PCT 6 11 20 34 54 5NP Central and Eastern Cheshire PCT 26 26 28 48 45 5NG Central Lancashire PCT 25 31 40 51 43 5C3 City and Hackney Teaching PCT 28 29 35 33 37 5QP Cornwall and Isles of Scilly PCT 76 98 135 175 171 5ND County Durham PCT 19 41 44 30 52 5MD Coventry Teaching PCT 14 35 40 46 26 5K9 Croydon PCT 13 18 24 42 40 5NE Cumbria Teaching PCT 26 44 22 36 53 5J9 Darlington PCT * 11 * 6 11 5N7 Derby City PCT 14 19 32 27 26 5N6 Derbyshire County PCT 39 37 40 76 63 5QQ Devon PCT 81 72 96 111 86 5N5 Doncaster PCT 12 19 20 28 35 5QM Dorset PCT 37 70 55 75 57 5PE Dudley PCT 32 34 28 24 32 5HX Ealing PCT 20 24 18 38 39 5P3 East and North Hertfordshire PCT 15 21 0 0 0 5NH East Lancashire Teaching PCT 19 36 28 30 22 5NW East Riding of Yorkshire PCT 10 21 25 29 17 5P7 East Sussex Downs and Weald PCT 16 16 27 36 25 5QA Eastern and Coastal Kent PCT 23 35 43 41 52 5C1 Enfield PCT 11 19 26 39 29 5KF Gateshead PCT 39 44 73 65 50 5QH Gloucestershire PCT 31 30 54 60 45 5PR Great Yarmouth and Waveney PCT 16 29 29 33 33 5A8 Greenwich Teaching PCT 14 24 35 38 27 5NM Halton and St Helens PCT 24 26 48 64 57 5H1 Hammersmith and Fulham PCT 29 15 23 16 23 5QC Hampshire PCT 106 117 149 152 112 5C9 Haringey Teaching PCT 30 21 20 41 39 5K6 Harrow PCT 9 12 17 40 29 5D9 Hartlepool PCT * 9 12 10 11 5P8 Hastings and Rother PCT * 8 9 27 34 5A4 Havering PCX 13 10 16 20 16 5MX Heart of Birmingham Teaching PCT 16 33 39 35 52 5CN Herefordshire PCX 9 8 8 9 10 5QV Hertfordshire PCT 0 0 76 91 90 5NQ Heywood, Middleton and Rochdale PCT 15 15 22 21 26 5AT Hillingdon PCT 10 21 28 35 45 5HY Hounslow PCT 32 12 8 26 30 5NX Hull Teaching PCT 14 17 29 38 43 5QT Isle of Wight NHS PCT 27 34 37 22 30 5K8 Islington PCT 15 17 21 31 33 5LA Kensington and Chelsea PCT 14 18 23 44 29 627W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 628W
Code PCT of responsibility 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
5A5 Kingston PCT 9 8 20 17 9 5N2 Kirklees PCT 11 14 34 35 34 5J4 Knowsley PCT 8 11 22 24 25 5LD Lambeth PCT 18 18 38 37 34 5N1 Leeds PCT 41 57 89 95 135 5PC Leicester City PCT 33 31 38 52 46 5PA Leicestershire County and Rutland PCT 50 85 79 67 ¦64 5LF Lewisham PCT 9 19 20 32 18 5N9 Lincolnshire Teaching PCT 39 42 54 40 38 5NL Liverpool PCT 37 61 64 75 64 5GC Luton PCT 28 24 28 31 32 5NT Manchester PCT 38 41 67 96 80 5L3 Medway PCT 12 18 20 24 25 5PX Mid Essex PCT 13 14 18 25 17 5KM Middlesbrough PCT 9 10 23 16 8 5CQ Milton Keynes PCT 10 32 35 27 29 5D7 Newcastle PCT 28 48 25 37 47 5C5 Newham PCT 27 21 36 44 44 5PQ Norfolk PCT 37 46 56 58 67 5PW North East Essex PCT 14 38 29 31 27 TAN North East Lincolnshire Care Trust Plus * * 12 9 20 5NF North Lancashire Teaching PCT 19 19 33 28 34 5EF North Lincolnshire PCT 6 * 7 * 6 5M8 North Somerset PCT 9 12 9 23 16 5PH North Staffordshire PCT 6 24 18 30 30 5D8 North Tyneside PCT 21 30 49 40 43 5NV North Yorkshire and York PCT 39 73 61 65 84 5PD Northamptonshire Teaching PCT 44 42 33 44 41 TAC Northumberland Care Trust 27 39 57 55 36 5EM Nottingham City PCT 24 45 50 66 71 5N8 Nottinghamshire County Teaching PCT 66 70 82 81 97 5J5 Oldham PCT 6 11 28 13 19 5QE Oxfordshire PCT 32 30 42 52 55 5PN Peterborough PCT 15 18 7 10 14 5F1 Plymouth Teaching PCT 55 89 91 74 93 5FE Portsmouth City Teaching PCT 16 41 41 42 25 5NA Redbridge PCT 8 6 21 10 20 5QR Redcar and Cleveland PCT * 8 20 21 14 5M6 Richmond and Twickenham PCT 9 12 14 11 12 5H8 Rotherham PCT 7 10 11 17 12 5F5 Salford PCT 24 32 50 63 62 5PF Sandwell PCT 32 24 38 57 40 5NJ Sefton PCT 8 22 22 21 32 5N4 Sheffield PCT 61 19 30 29 26 5M2 Shropshire County PCT 8 12 27 21 28 TAM Solihull Care Trust 17 14 21 b 0 5QW Solihull PCT 0 0 0 21 21 5QL Somerset PCT 34 116 155 179 301 5M1 South Birmingham PCT 24 25 33 32 61 5P1 South East Essex PCT 31 29 41 46 63 5A3 South Gloucestershire PCT * 28 18 25 21 5PK South Staffordshire PCT 26 49 41 63 61 5KG South Tyneside PCT 13 34 43 34 35 5PY South West Essex PCT 15 24 29 31 47 5L1 Southampton City PCT 45 54 64 55 53 5LE Southwark PCT 26 26 21 23 28 5F7 Stockport PCT 20 30 24 41 57 5E1 Stockton-on-Tees Teaching PCT 11 * 28 22 15 5PJ Stoke on Trent PCT 21 31 28 29 59 5PT Suffolk PCT 39 78 60 86 88 5KL Sunderland Teaching PCT 10 16 21 24 30 5P5 Surrey PCT 34 66 94 94 103 5M7 Sutton and Merton PCT 23 23 36 48 50 5K3 Swindon PCT 16 23 31 28 23 5LH Tameside and Glossop PCT 13 17 29 38 16 629W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 630W
Code PCT of responsibility 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13
5MK Telford and Wrekin PCT 9 8 * 17 10 TAL Torbay Care Trust 28 22 11 26 35 5C4 Tower Hamlets PCT 12 20 20 20- 15 5NR Trafford PCT 7 13 27 30 41 5N3 Wakefield District PCT 20 20 29 21 36 5M3 Walsall Teaching PCT 14 18 32 71 50 5NC Waltham Forest PCT 15 23 22 19 27 5LG Wandsworth PCT 18 19 41 37 33 5J2 Warrington PCT 12 18 31 17 36 5PM Warwickshire PCT 47 40 44 58 46 5PV West Essex PCT 20 14 25 51 37 5P4 West Hertfordshire PCT 31 46 0 0 0 5P9 West Kent PCT 36 29 43 45 49 5P6 West Sussex PCT 102 100 124 133 125 5NN Western Cheshire PCT 21 21 23 25 20 5LC Westminster PCT 29 20 39 53 53 5QK Wiltshire PCT 49 36 58 61 71 5NK Wirral PCT 31 23 33 50 89 5MV Wolverhampton City PCT 17 21 47 55 52 5PL Worcestershire PCT 31 24 31 41 47 59898 Not Applicable 15 25 31 33 36 59999 Unknown 1 1 2 * 1 Notes: 1. Finished discharge episodes A discharge episode is the last episode during a hospital stay (a spell), where the patient is discharged from the hospital or transferred to another hospital. 2. Number of episodes in which the patient had a primary or secondary diagnosis. The number of episodes where this diagnosis was recorded in any of the 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) primary and secondary diagnosis fields in a Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) record. Each episode is only counted once, even if the diagnosis is recorded in more than one diagnosis field of the record. 3. ICD10 codes—Malnutrition E40.X—Kwashiorkor E41.X—Nutritional marasmus E42.X—Marasmic kwashiorkor E43.X—Unspecified severe protein-energy malnutrition E44.0—Moderate protein-energy malnutrition E44.1—Mild protein-energy malnutrition E45.X—Retarded development following protein-energy malnutrition E46.X—Unspecified protein-energy malnutrition O25.X—Malnutrition in pregnancy 4. PCT of responsibility The PCT of responsibility is derived from the PCT of general practitioner practice, the PCT of residence and the PCT of main provider. 5. Assessing growth through time (in-patients) HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, changes in activity may be due to changes in the provision of care. 6. Small numbers To protect patient confidentiality, figures between one and five have been replaced with “*” (an asterisk). Where it was still possible to identify figures from the total, additional figures have been replaced with “*”. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre.
Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State patient is assessed as requiring nutritional support, they for Health how many people were readmitted to will receive a care plan to help them to ensure optimal hospital due to malnutrition in each of the last five nutrition and weight maintenance. years for which data are available; and how many such In line with the National Institute for Care Excellence patients resided at a care home or residential home. Quality Standard for nutrition support in adults, published [175170] in November 2012, service providers should ensure that people who are malnourished or at risk of malnutrition Norman Lamb: Information on whether a patient was have a management care plan that aims to meet their readmitted to hospital due to malnutrition is not held complete nutritional requirements. centrally. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to reduce the for Health how many patients were discharged from incidence of malnutrition in (a) hospitals and (b) care hospital with a nutritional care plan in each of the last homes; and if he will make a statement. [175172] five years for which data are available. [175171] Norman Lamb: All providers of regulated activities, Norman Lamb: The information requested is not including hospitals and care homes, are required by law collected centrally. to have policies in place that protect people from the National health service hospitals have their own discharge risk of inadequate nutrition and hydration. We expect policies. Hospitals’ discharge policies should follow the Care Quality Commission to take swift action should government guidance on discharge of patients. If a it find this not to be the case. 631W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 632W
The importance of good quality food for patients is five a day for mental health in each year for which data recognised both in terms of improving their health and is available; [174987] in relation to their overall experience of services. Poor (2) what estimate he has made of the number of diet can cause serious illness and even increase the risk visits to GPs per year by people who have (a) of early death. undergone and (b) not undergone mindfulness It is for health and social care providers to develop interventions; [175038] local nutrition and hydration policies and there are a (3) how many people reported poor (a) mental and number of best practice resources and guidelines available (b) physical health in (i) May 2010 and (ii) the most to help providers do this. These include the National recent period for which data is available; [175060] Institute for Health and Care Excellence clinical guidelines (4) how many people have been diagnosed with to help the national health service identify patients who anxiety disorder in each year for which data is are malnourished or at risk of malnutrition, and the available; [175062] Essence of Care benchmarking system which includes food and drink. (5) what assessment he has made of the age of onset of depression over the longest period for which data is Providers may also use the ‘red tray’ scheme wherein available; [175063] patients are identified for special attention. (6) what assessment he has made of the effect of As part of our continued work to improve hospital materialism on levels of mental health; [175064] food, Age UK Chair Dianne Jeffrey has agreed to chair a panel to look at standards of food in hospitals. The (7) if he will give the annual results for the (a) work will focus particularly on nutritional quality, mealtime depression register for adults number 18 plus or (b) experience and the help given to patients to eat. depression prevalence for adults 18 plus (percentage) for each year in which data are available. [175125] Mental Health Norman Lamb: The number of adults aged 18 or over on the Quality and Outcomes Framework (QOF) Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health depression register and the raw prevalence rates for all (1) what his Department has spent on the promotion of available years are given in the following table.
Number of adult patients aged 18 or over1 on the QOF depression register and the raw prevalence rate in England Sum of register count Prevalence
2008-091 4,373,974 8.1 2009-10 4,648,287 10.7 2010-11 4,878,188 11.2 2011-12 5,123,948 11.7 2012-132 2,582,233 5.8 1 2008-09 prevalence is presented on the basis of registers as a percentage of whole practice list size. 2 There was a change in the QOF business rules for the depression register in 2012-13. Previously, all patients with a record of unresolved depression at any point in their general practitioner (GP) patient record were included on the register. As of April 2013, the register rules were changed to only include patients with a record of unresolved depression since April 2006. As a result, fewer patients are included on the register, thus reducing the reported prevalence. Note: Raw prevalence = sum of registers for all practices/sum of list sizes for all practices (expressed as a percentage).
The Department has not invested funds in this promotion problem, representing 2.24% of the total population. In of five a day for mental health. 2011, the equivalent figure was 55.53%, representing The Department does not collect data on estimates of 1.77% of the total population. the number of visits to GPs per year of people who have The Department does not collect data for the age of undergone or not undergone mindfulness interventions. onset of depression centrally. The Department is aware of the numbers of people The Department has not commissioned any research who have common mental health problems that include on the effect of materialism on levels of mental health. depression and anxiety disorders, however there is no breakdown of the data into individual disorders. Mindfulness Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is a National Mental Health Services: Young People Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) approved treatment designed to prevent relapse for those with Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for recurrent depression and is not recommended for the Health how many days (a) under-16 year olds and (b) treatment of anxiety disorders. The recent NICE social under-18 year olds spent on adult mental health wards anxiety guidelines specifically states that Mindfulness in each region in each of the last five years. [174601] approaches are not recommended for the treatment of people with social anxiety disorders. Norman Lamb: I refer the right hon. Member to the The Health Survey for England (HSE) provides estimates answer I gave the hon. Member for East Worthing and of people with poor mental and physical health, most Shoreham (Tim Loughton) on 5 November 2013, Official recently in 2011. The proportion who reported long Report, columns 166-68W. term mental health problems in HSE in 2010 was 4.18% I look forward to meeting the right hon. Member and in 2011 the figure was 3.76%. next month to discuss the outstanding issues from his In 2010; 66.04% of people with long standing mental End of Day debate on 23 October about in-patient health problems also had a longstanding physical health mental health services for children and adolescents. 633W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 634W
Mental Illness (5) what data (a) his Department and (b) Health Education England gather and use to inform the Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for number of student commissions for healthcare workers Health what advice he gives to police forces on dealing by local education and training boards; [174760] with people who are suffering from mental health (6) what steps he plans to take to ensure that the difficulties. [175268] determination of the number of student commissions Norman Lamb: Police forces should work closely with for healthcare workers by local education and training local mental health professionals to ensure that people boards is based on consistent and accurate data. they deal with who have mental health difficulties receive [174761] a supportive response from the most appropriate agency. The Department has been working closely with the Dr Poulter: The information in this response has been Home Office, national policing leads, NHS England supplied by Health Education England (HEE). and other key partners to produce an agreed statement In June, HEE produced the first ever work force and set of principles to guide responses in cases where guidance for England. The aim of this work force people in mental health crisis come to the attention of planning guide is to secure future work force to maintain the police. We aim to publish this joint concordat before safe staffing levels while supporting transformation of the end of the year. services. The guide provides clarity around roles, If a person experiencing mental health problems is responsibilities, milestones and timelines and creates arrested and taken to police custody, they will often the opportunity to consider priorities between professional have access to liaison and diversion services. These groups, between current and future work force and schemes for adults and young people who come into between numbers and skills, values and behaviours. The contact with the criminal justice system, in police custody guide is available at: and courts, identify and assess health needs. They aim www.hee.nhs.uk/work-programmes/workforce-planning/new- to link offenders to appropriate treatment and to inform workforce-planning-guide-for-the-nhs/ charging and sentencing decisions as people progress HEE’s approach to open, robust, evidence-based through the criminal justice system. decision making has included a call for evidence, active The Home Office, Department of Health and Ministry engagement with stakeholders, professional engagement of Justice are undertaking work to roll out liaison and through the HEE Advisory Groups and work with our diversion schemes in police custody suites nationally local education and training boards (LETBs) and their from 2014. local audiences. The Department is also funding mental health “street In 2013 this means that HEE have collected and triage” in nine police force areas. The forces involved assessed the future forecast work force requirements of are the Metropolitan Police Service, British Transport virtually every national health service provider and also police, West Yorkshire police, West Midlands police, assessed the future supply of staff in each LETB area. Thames Valley police, North Yorkshire police, Sussex This data are then triangulated against information police, Derbyshire constabulary, and Devon and Cornwall received through the ‘call for evidence’ from organisations police. In these schemes, already operational in some such as royal colleges, staff organisations, and patient parts of the country, mental health professionals advise bodies. These processes will, within current data limitations, and support police officers directly when they deal with attempt to assess the impact on the NHS work force of people who may have a mental health need. the requirements of the devolved nations, and the NHS: Training independent sector. HEE is working with other stakeholders to ensure that robust work force information continues Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to be available to inform the work force planning process (1) what steps Health Education England takes with its in future years. counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland HEE has primary responsibility for health care education to ensure that assessment of need in the commissioning and training in England but where possible will endeavour of student places for the education and training of to work with the devolved administrations and health health care workers takes place on a UK-wide basis; services of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to [174571] deliver objectives that impact and improve health services (2) what steps Health Education England plans to across the United Kingdom. take to ensure that determination of the number of student commissions for health care workers by local HEE continues to engage with the devolved nations education and training boards takes full account of the including through a regular four nation work force number of health care workers employed outside the planners forum. LETBs include non-NHS employers as NHS; [174757] members, including a number of cases where independent sector providers are full board members. (3) what steps Health Education England plans to take to ensure that an England-wide assessment of HEE is also working closely with its education providers need is made to inform the commissioning of student and Higher Education Funding Council for England to places for the education and training of health care ensure the impact of any decisions on education workers; [174758] programmes are carefully implemented with regard to (4) what steps Health Education England plans to the impact on these partners. take to ensure that reductions in student places They have also carried out due diligence on the commissioned by local education and training boards picture inherited from the former strategic health authorities do not threaten the viability of education and training and have shared information widely in the interest of courses for healthcare workers; [174759] openness and transparency. 635W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 636W
Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health HEE has primary responsibility for health care education (1) if he will take steps to ensure that the determination and training in England but where possible will endeavour of the number of student commissions for health care to work with the devolved Administrations and health workers by local education and training boards takes services of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to full account of the many health care workers now deliver objectives that impact and improve health services employed outside the NHS; [174896] across the United Kingdom. (2) if he will take steps to ensure that an HEE continues to engage with the devolved nations England-wide assessment of need is made in the including through a regular four nation work force commissioning of student places for the education and planners forum. LETBs include non-NHS employers as training of health care workers; [174902] members, including a number of cases where independent (3) what steps he is taking to ensure that the sector providers are full board members. determination of the number of student commissions HEE is also working closely with its education providers for health care workers by local education and training and Higher Education Funding Council for England to boards is based on consistent and accurate data; ensure the impact of any decisions on education [174903] programmes are carefully implemented with regard to the impact on these partners. (4) what steps Health Education England is taking to ensure that reductions in commissioned student places They have also carried out due diligence on the by local education and training boards do not affect picture inherited from the former strategic health authorities the viability of education and training courses for and have shared information widely in the interest of health care workers; [174904] openness and transparency. (5) what data (a) his Department and (b) Health Education England (i) commission and (ii) use to Older People: Greater London calculate the number of student commissions for health care workers by local education and training Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for boards; [174905] Health what estimate he has made of (a) the number (6) what steps Health Education England is taking of dependent elderly in each London borough and (b) with its counterparts in Scotland, Wales and Northern the number of such elderly people that have no family Ireland to ensure UK-wide assessment of need in the living in their borough. [175269] commissioning of student places for the education and training of health care workers. [174907] Norman Lamb: The numbers of older people in London receiving residential and community based support from their local authority in 2012-13 are detailed in the Dr Poulter: The information in this response has been following table: supplied by Health Education England (HEE). In June, HEE produced the first ever work force 2012-13 guidance for England. The aim of this work force Residential Community planning guide is to secure future work force to maintain safe staffing levels while supporting transformation of Barking and Dagenham 430 2,340 services. The guide provides clarity around roles, Barnet 780 2,440 responsibilities, milestones and timelines and creates Bexley 505 915 the opportunity to consider priorities between professional Brent 555 1,660 groups, between current and future work force and Bromley 650 2,105 between numbers and skills, values and behaviours. The Camden 425 1,490 guide is available at: City of London 25 60 hee.nhs.uk/work-programmes/workforce-planning/new- Croydon 690 3,285 workforce-planning-guide-for-the-nhs/ Ealing 545 2,520 HEE’s approach to open, robust, evidence-based decision Enfield 675 2,180 making has included a call for evidence, active engagement Greenwich 525 1,585 with stakeholders, professional engagement through the Hackney 395 1,640 HEE advisory groups and work with our local education Hammersmith and Fulham 380 1,885 and training boards (LETBs) and their local audiences. Haringey 440 1,315 Harrow 450 2,090 In 2013 this means that HEE have collected and Havering 585 2,695 assessed the future forecast work force requirements of Hillingdon 570 2,385 virtually every NHS provider and also assessed the future supply of staff in each LETB area. This data is Hounslow 410 1,415 then triangulated against information received through Islington 500 1,165 the ’call for evidence’ from organisations such as royal Kensington and Chelsea 290 1,785 colleges, staff organisations, and patient bodies. These Kingston-upon-Thames 260 975 processes will, within current data limitations, attempt Lambeth 625 2,430 to assess the impact on the NHS work force of the Lewisham 595 2,085 requirements of the devolved nations, and the independent Merton 500 1,440 sector. HEE is working with other stakeholders to Newham 470 1,530 ensure that robust work force information continues to Redbridge 455 2,900 be available to inform the work force planning process Richmond upon Thames 440 615 in future years. Southwark 620 1,655 637W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 638W
Radiotherapy 2012-13 Residential Community Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) with reference to section 1.4.1 of the 2011 National Sutton 290 1,155 Radiotherapy Implementation Group’s Report on Tower Hamlets 405 1,750 Stereotactic Radiotherapy, whether commissioners Waltham Forest 400 1,250 have approved treatment with stereotactic ablative Wandsworth 605 1,250 radiotherapy for (a) prostate, (b) spinal, (c) renal, (d) Westminster 535 2,230 head and neck, (e) hepatic and (f) oligometastases London Total 16,020 58,215 form of cancer since December 2010; [174754] Source: (2) whether clinical trials with stereotactic ablative Health and Social Care Information Centre, Community Care Statistics, Social Services Activity, England—2012-13, Provisional release. radiotherapy have taken place for (a) prostate, (b) spinal, (c) renal, (d) head and neck, (e) hepatic and In addition a number of older people in each borough (f) oligometastases form of cancer since December fund their own care and support without help from 2010. [174755] their local authority. The Department does not collect Dr Poulter: Information regarding commissioners who data on this group of people. have approved stereotactic ablative radiotherapy (SABR) The Department does not collect data on the for prostate, spinal, renal, head and neck, hepatic and number of elderly people who have family living in their oligometastases forms of cancer since December 2010 borough. is not available. It is for each area’s health and wellbeing board to The National Radiotherapy Implementation Group’s prepare Joint Strategic Needs Assessments (JSNAs) to Report on SABR, published in July 2011, concluded assess the health and social care needs of the whole that the evidence only supported the routine use of local community, including older people who need care SABR in the treatment of early stage non-small cell and support. Based on the JSNAs the local authority lung cancer for patients who are unsuitable for surgery. must work with local communities to agree local priorities For the cancers mentioned in section 1.4.1 of the report, for action to improve both health and care services. it stated that treatment should only be commissioned within a clinical trial or on an individualised basis. Since 1 April, NHS England has been responsible for Paediatrics commissioning radiotherapy services, including SABR. Following consultation, on 4 April 2013 NHS England Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for published a SABR commissioning policy that supported Health (1) what steps he plans to take to reconfigure the conclusions of the NRIG report, recommending general, non-specialist, paediatric services in (a) that routine commissioning of SABR treatment was Stafford and (b) England; [174720] only suitable for early stage non-small cell lung cancer (2) which NHS organisation has overall for patients who are unsuitable for surgery. responsibility for regional and national critical care The Department’s National Institute for Health Research infrastructure. [174721] has not funded any clinical trials of SABR for prostate, spinal, renal, head and neck, hepatic or oligometastatic Jane Ellison: The policy of this Government is that cancer since December 2010. the configuration of health services across England, There are completed and on-going international clinical including critical care and non-specialist paediatric services, trials examining the use of SABR in a range of cancer is driven by the local national health service. Local sites. Details of these are available on the ClinicalTrials.gov commissioners and clinicians are best placed to ensure registry at: that services meet the needs of their local population, www.clinicaltrials.gov/ and to consider where changes might be necessary in Social Services order to best meet those needs now and in the future. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State All proposals for change are subject to proper and for Health how the forthcoming regulations and public scrutiny by local authorities, whose health and national eligibility criteria for social care will account overview scrutiny committees should work closely with for individuals of working age with moderate care the local NHS throughout the process. These scrutiny needs. [175058] committees also have the ability to refer an NHS proposal for change to the Secretary of State for Health, my right Norman Lamb: The Government published a draft of hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), the national eligibility criteria regulations in June for for a final decision. discussion. The eligibility criteria are intended to be In Stafford, Trust Special Administrators have been equivalent to the level operated by the vast majority of appointed to Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust local authorities in the current system. Local authorities to develop a plan for the continued provision of services. will remain able to meet needs which are not deemed It is expected that the administrators’ final report will eligible, if they choose to do so. The threshold is about recommend changes to the way in which services are establishing a minimum standard, not taking away councils’ provided. The special administration regime is intended discretion to go further. to provide a time limited framework for resolving problems The new care and support system will introduce a at a significantly challenged rust. However the process new focus on prevention, and people whose needs do also ensures that there is appropriate input from local not meet the national eligibility criteria will be able to stakeholders and the public as service proposals are receive information and advice to help delay or even developed. prevent their need for local authority arranged care or 639W Written Answers12 NOVEMBER 2013 Written Answers 640W support. In addition, the Integration Transformation Norman Lamb: The Government published a draft of Fund will support the delivery of integrated services, the national eligibility criteria regulations in June for including intervening early so that older and disabled discussion. The draft regulations take account of people people can stay healthy and independent at home. with fluctuating needs by requiring the local authority to consider the person’s needs over a period of time. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Where a person has fluctuating needs, the draft regulations for Health how the forthcoming regulations governing will allow the local authority to consider the person’s the eligibility criteria for social care will incorporate history when, determining whether the person has eligible and adequately account for fluctuating conditions. needs. [175117] ORAL ANSWERS
Tuesday 12 November 2013
Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 781 JUSTICE—continued Courts (Vulnerable Witnesses) ...... 786 Probation Service...... 792 HMP Wellingborough...... 781 Probation Trusts ...... 791 Human Rights Claims ...... 795 Reoffending ...... 784 Illegal Drug Use (Prisons)...... 790 Reoffending ...... 796 Knife Possession ...... 795 Topical Questions ...... 797 Law Society (Handling of Complaints)...... 791 Victims (Criminal Justice System)...... 788 Motor Insurance Fraud ...... 787 Victims Services (London) ...... 794 Offender Behaviour Programmes ...... 793 Whiplash Claims...... 796 Probation Reforms...... 783 WRITTEN STATEMENTS
Tuesday 12 November 2013
Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 32WS HEALTH...... 33WS City Deals ...... 32WS NHS England (Mandate)...... 33WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 34WS Immigration and Visa Charging Principles ...... 34WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 31WS Improving Local Housing ...... 31WS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 34WS Planning Applications...... 31WS Typhoon Haiyan...... 34WS PETITION
Tuesday 12 November 2013
Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION ...... 15P Rural Fair Share Campaign...... 15P WRITTEN ANSWERS
Tuesday 12 November 2013
Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 597W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Bank Services: Fees and Charges ...... 597W continued EU External Trade: USA...... 597W Non-domestic Rates...... 585W Exports ...... 599W Parking: Fees and Charges...... 585W Furniture: Intellectual Property ...... 599W Peel Holdings...... 585W Green Investment Bank ...... 599W Public Sector Relocation Independent Review ...... 586W Health...... 600W Redundancy...... 586W Insolvency...... 601W Students: Loans ...... 601W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 569W Gaming Machines...... 569W CABINET OFFICE...... 578W Visits Abroad ...... 570W Civil Servants...... 578W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 578W DEFENCE...... 552W Job Creation...... 578W Aircraft Carriers ...... 552W Qualifications...... 579W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 553W Statistics...... 579W Armed Forces: Vehicles...... 553W Youth Work ...... 579W Army: Northern Ireland...... 555W Charities Act 2006...... 556W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 583W Defence: Procurement...... 556W Absenteeism...... 583W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 556W Emergencies: Planning ...... 584W Kawasaki Heavy Industries...... 557W Fire Services: South West...... 584W Military Bases...... 557W Housing: Construction...... 584W Military Bases: Northern Ireland...... 559W Housing: Greater London...... 584W Military Decorations...... 559W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HEALTH—continued MOD Ashchurch ...... 559W NHS: Training ...... 633W MOD Donnington...... 561W Older People: Greater London...... 636W Patrol Craft...... 561W Paediatrics...... 637W Pensions...... 561W Radiotherapy ...... 638W Portsmouth Dockyard...... 562W Social Services...... 638W Salvage...... 562W Sick Leave ...... 562W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 535W Territorial Army ...... 563W Animal Experiments: Scotland ...... 535W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 563W Antisocial Behaviour...... 535W Warships ...... 564W Antisocial Behaviour Orders ...... 536W World War II...... 564W Arrest Warrants ...... 536W Asylum ...... 537W EDUCATION...... 602W Asylum: Females...... 537W CAFCASS ...... 602W Borders: Personal Records ...... 539W Children: Day Care ...... 603W Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre .. 539W Children: Hyperactivity ...... 604W Civil Disorder ...... 539W Class Sizes...... 604W Community Orders ...... 540W Free School Meals...... 605W Council of Europe Convention On Preventing and Free Schools...... 605W Combating Violence Against Women and Headteachers ...... 606W Domestic Violenc...... 541W Primary Education: Standards...... 607W Crimes of Violence...... 541W Schools: Finance...... 607W Deportation ...... 541W Schools: Health...... 607W Domestic Violence ...... 542W Schools: Playing Fields ...... 608W EU Justice and Home Affairs...... 543W Sick Leave ...... 608W Firearms: Crime...... 544W Sign Language ...... 609W Illegal Immigrants...... 544W Teachers: Training...... 609W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 544W Immigration Controls ...... 545W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 581W Members: Correspondence ...... 545W Energy Companies Obligation ...... 581W Police and Crime Commissioners...... 546W Energy: Prices ...... 581W Police: Information ...... 546W Environment Protection: Taxation ...... 581W Police: Lancashire ...... 546W Fuel Poverty: North East ...... 581W Police: Northern Ireland ...... 547W Office for Nuclear Regulation ...... 582W Police: Sussex ...... 547W Plutonium ...... 582W Police: Wales ...... 548W Safety Belts ...... 548W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Vetting ...... 549W AFFAIRS...... 549W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 549W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 579W British Overseas Territories...... 550W Argentina...... 579W Common Agricultural Policy ...... 550W Developing Countries: Job Creation ...... 579W Food Banks...... 551W Procurement...... 580W Qualifications...... 551W Sky Lanterns...... 552W JUSTICE...... 530W Water Charges...... 552W Crime: West Midlands ...... 530W Domestic Violence ...... 530W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 527W European Supervision Orders ...... 531W Egypt ...... 527W Immigration: Appeals ...... 532W Iran...... 527W Prisons: Education...... 532W Middle East ...... 527W Prisons: Health Services...... 532W Palestinians ...... 528W Rape: Victim Support Schemes ...... 533W Russia ...... 528W Recruitment ...... 534W Syria...... 528W Sunningdale Park...... 534W Telephone Services...... 529W Support for Victims of Crime ...... 534W Yemen ...... 529W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 525W HEALTH...... 614W Foreign Investment in UK...... 525W Cancer: Drugs...... 614W Human Trafficking ...... 525W CJD ...... 614W Missing Persons ...... 526W Cochlear Implants: East Midlands...... 615W Northern Ireland Government...... 526W Continuing Care ...... 615W Telephone Services...... 526W General Practitioners ...... 615W Victims...... 526W Glaucoma ...... 617W Hearing Impairment: East Midlands ...... 617W PRIME MINISTER ...... 529W Heart Diseases ...... 618W Iraq Committee of Inquiry ...... 529W Insulin...... 618W Malnutrition ...... 619W TRANSPORT ...... 569W Mental Health...... 631W A15 ...... 569W Mental Health Services: Young People...... 632W A428 ...... 570W Mental Illness ...... 633W Aviation ...... 571W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued TREASURY—continued Driving: Sleep Apnoea ...... 572W Taxation: Republic of Ireland ...... 568W Finsbury Park Station...... 572W Gospel Oak-Barking Railway Line ...... 573W WALES...... 583W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 573W Magistrates Courts...... 583W Inland Waterways: Freight ...... 574W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 587W M180 ...... 574W Child Benefit...... 587W Motor Vehicles: Lighting ...... 574W Children: Maintenance ...... 587W Motorcycles: Cumbria ...... 576W Cold Weather Payments: Wales...... 588W Parking: Pedestrian Areas ...... 575W Disability Living Allowance...... 589W Qualifications...... 575W Employment Schemes ...... 590W Road Signs and Markings...... 576W Employment Schemes: Disability...... 591W Roads: Accidents ...... 576W Jobcentre Plus ...... 591W South West Trains ...... 577W Mesothelioma ...... 591W UK Border Force...... 577W Personal Independence Payment...... 592W Personal Independence Payment: South East...... 593W TREASURY ...... 564W Personal Independence Payment: Stirling ...... 594W Counterfeit Manufacturing: Clothing ...... 564W Personal Independence Payment: Terminal Income Tax: Scotland ...... 565W Illnesses...... 594W Ineos ...... 565W Personal Independence Payment: Young People .... 594W Mortgages...... 566W Refuges: Females ...... 595W Payment Systems Regulator ...... 566W Sick Leave ...... 595W Public Sector Relocation Independent Review ...... 567W Social Security Benefits...... 595W Tax Avoidance: Luxembourg ...... 568W Universal Credit...... 596W Tax Yields: Water Companies ...... 568W Universal Credit: Hammersmith and Fulham...... 596W Taxation...... 568W Vaccination: Compensation ...... 596W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS
Tuesday 12 November 2013
Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 781] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice
Urgent and Emergency Care Review [Col. 805] Answer to urgent question—(Mr Jeremy Hunt)
Permitted Development (Basements) [Col. 820] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Ms Buck)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time
Opposition Day [11th allotted day] Housing Benefit [Col. 823] Motion—(Rachel Reeves)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Steve Webb)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to
Petitions [Col. 925]
Hearing Loss in Adulthood [Col. 929] Debate on motion for Adjournment
Westminster Hall East Coast Main Line [Col. 187WH] Premier Motor Auctions [Col. 212WH] Iran’s Nuclear Weapons Programme [Col. 219WH] Sittingbourne and Sheppey Road Infrastructure [Col. 242WH] Glenanne Gang Murders [Col. 248WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment
Written Statements [Col. 31WS]
Petition [Col. 15P] Presented Petition
Written Answers to Questions [Col. 525W] [see index inside back page]