order of the day. Compromise usually means someone giving way. And the balance of power was very much on the A Taste side of the big unions. Not the little unions, and not the little man. Again that's an example where Margaret has realised that reforming the trade un- of Currie ions was terrifically popular. She's said the state can't do every- Edwina Currie is one of the new breed of thing. The state shouldn't do every- thing. The state should do as little as Thatcherite Tories, and one of the most possible. If the central planning system controversial. Beatrix Campbell interviewed doesn't work then there is broadly only one other alternative which is the her for Marxism Today market system. And Margaret's breath- taking audacity was to say, 'let's see if the market works'.

She plugged into the rise of a new body of theoretical work by people like Hayek. How far were you interested in it, how far do you feel that it describes you? Well, the theories were around for a long time. I've no idea what Margaret's own reading has been.

What's yours been? Well, at university my economics read- Edwina Currie was born in in 1946. Her father was a shopkeeper. She ing list was much the same as it had was a councillor in Birmingham from 1975-1986. In 1983 she was elected been in the 1930s. And I rebelled rather Conservative MP for South , and was recently appointed junior health against all that stuff, the trade cycle, minister. Joan Robinson and all that. I did try and read Keynes. I did not plough through As part of a generation of Tories around sionately about law and order. She puts the whole of the General Theory. I came 40, you've lived your life as an adult in the the victims first. She isn't that in- to the conclusion that his description of era of Thatcherism. terested, I suspect, in theories about the relationship between investment Not entirely. I grew up under the the criminal as victim. Neither are and demand and employment and the Macmillan regime. The first politician I most people in this country. use of resources, in other words the vividly remember is Kennedy. And I Margaret spoke so much more for the level of supply and demand, probably can remember being immensely moved aspirations of ordinary people, what was reasonably accurate. But it seemed by his inaugural speech: 'Ask not what Marxism Today would call working a bit slick to me. It wasn't until I got on your country can do for you, ask what class people. I don't believe in class war to books on economics written by you can do for your country.' I was 14 at at all. But it came like a breath of fresh Americans like Samuelson that it began the time and I thought 'Wow'. Macmil- air. And you could hear people all to make sense. Because there they lan also tried to develop new ways of around saying 'That's it. That's the first were talking about an economy that thinking, like the National Incomes time I've ever heard any politician say was strongly market orientated, where Commission and NEDO, some of which what I want.' Margaret was able, in the business was the main drive. That have been shown not to work, and some most successful way any politician has seemed to me the best way of doing of which are still in existence. And perhaps since Baldwin - I think he things. again I found myself thinking 'Great. probably had the same sort of talent - But what influenced me, wasn't so There are new ways. We don't have to to touch the popular soul. much reading - I'm not a theoretician, be run in the way we were in the 1930s. though I can pass exams - I'd much It is a new era.' I was most impressed Beyond the populist voice, where would rather tap into the culture of real with his style and obvious concern for you place yourself in relation to the radical people. One of the influential things for the way our people live. So those two Right, the ideology that's associated with me was going to America between were stronger influences at that time Thatcherism, and the things that come school and university. Everybody I met than Margaret, who had only just come together in Thatcherism? in America, or almost everybody, into politics herself. It's a populist voice first and foremost. believed with some passion - and many It derives its strength from Margaret of these people were from very ordin- Thatcherism represents a different mo- speaking to and for a very large ary backgrounds - that if they worked ment. number of people who have felt them- hard they could become wealthy. And Thatcherism is different, yes. selves to be voiceless before. look at all the people who have.

How do you feel about that and where do It also represents a challenge to the Where do you think Thatcherism can go as you place yourself in it? postwar consensus. Do you share that a political project? Has it exhausted itself I think where Margaret made a differ- challenge? or has it a radical new energy? Do your ence was that instead of being imposed Yes I do. Probably particularly in the colleagues talk about it? on us from outside, instead of being a business world because she has been Yes we do. Insofar as we want to roll person who'd led a different sort of life, saying very strongly that business back the frontiers of the state, and we a gilded life, Margaret had come from must run itself. do, we want people to take more the most ordinary background anyone responsibility. I think what tends to could have, her father was a shopkeep- Haven't Tories always said that? happen is that the areas we have yet to er. And she had so much more in I don't think they've meant it. The first wade into are so obvious, like local common with us. She said the things, whiff of a strike in Macmillan's day, or government, that we tend to take a deep and she still does say the things, that Mr Heath's day, they'd have them all breath before the next step. ordinary working people believe and down to Downing Street, and try and feel and care about. She cares pas- resolve it. And compromise was the Health has been one of the areas where

20 MARXISM TODAY MARCH 1987 Thatcherism has been rolled back, it has now had to present itself as the defender of the National Health Service. The inauguration of a privatised health service has failed, hasn't it? The basis of Conservative thinking is rooted very deeply in what people want. And they want a National Health Service that deals with their needs properly, responsively, cost-effect- ively, in a caring and consumer orien- tated way. That's what they want, they've made it absolutely plain. I really do believe very strongly that Thatcherism is a working people's movement. It's a democratic move- ment.

You've got a problem with local govern- ment, despite all the populist arguments against the 'loony Left'. In many areas of local government you've been annihilated, and if this goes on you could lose a generation of local councillors, who, like yourself, have found a route to power through local government. You were going to be the decentralising party and you've turned out to be the centralising govern- ment because you don't like what local government is doing. Local government elections, particular- ly in the major cities, tend to go the opposite way from the government, almost automatically. So I'm not that worried.

But getting rid of the metropolitan authorities split the party. A lot of people who are loyal to local government and believe in it were very upset on your side. On the other hand look at somewhere like Wandsworth, against all those odds and against all that determinism...

.. . just about hung on. No, they hold it, they control it. They'll go on controlling it. And they believe in Wandsworth that they did it because they've managed the whole thing bet- ter. Whatever we run, we do it better. If we decide that something ought to be run by politicians or ought to be run by the state then we have a tremendous responsibility to make sure that the public money which has been voted to us is well spent.

Let's just backtrack to the origins of the question, a third term, a new radical agenda, what next can Thatcherism do? There's a real revolution going on in the health service and the whole philoso- phy of general management is proving its worth more than, frankly, I ex- pected.

Efficiency is one thing. But a Thatcherite agenda, a radical agenda.. . That's part of the radicalism. Radical- ism says 'we don't have to run this thing in the sloppy old way it's been run before'.

Sure. But I could agree with that. Well why didn't those people do it?

So what about local government then?

21 MARXISM TODAY MARCH 1987 Well hopefully doing the same thing breast cancer. Are you going to? with local government. We're now asking the questions. I'll Have you changed your mind about give you another example - a qualified Are you going to take even more control screening? You said you were against midwife stays with us, the National over local government? universal screening. The evidence now Health Service, on average, for less I don't know. I think much of the debate seems to suggest that it would be a good than five years. It takes us nearly five revolves around finance. thing. years to train them. That's insane, I'm still very sceptical about notions of whatever your political regime. So you That is also about control. doing everybody in order to catch the have to ask intelligent questions about But do you see how fundamental it is few. why it happens. I suspect that what that people should not be able to evade happens far too often is that a girl says their responsibilities. And so reforming If women want everybody to be done, 'I'm getting married' and they say local government in the way that's would you change your mind? A lot of 'wonderful'. 'I'm having a baby' and being suggested, saying everybody women in your own party did. they say 'great, when are you leaving?'. must pay at least part of their rates, is A much better quality of health care is actually a very fundamental part of it. delivered, and much more efficiently What about childcare? Shouldn't the delivered, if we target the most obvious health service provide it? So is the centrepiece going to be rates groups and do them first. It doesn't I start off by believing that people reform, or do you have a bigger project? make sense to move to the next bunch should provide for their own children, I think it comes from, 'what is this local of low-risk groups until you are sure and provide their own childcare. It's council doing with my money? Why is it you've shifted the bulk of the people not that difficult. taking my money and spending it on a who are most highly at risk. political agenda?' So you haven't changed your mind? Well, they may vote for that. But will you Well- let them vote for it? After all you abolished the metropolitan authorities. Were you chastened by the criticism of That's why local government is more your position on screening? difficult because you've got two layers No. What interests me is why, when of government. It's fine if they agree. facilities are provided, people don't use But if they don't that's why, with the them. I'm not in the least bit bothered system we have now had for a century, who I go to for medical care. It wouldn't there has been conflict. even occur to me to look to the sex of the person who was treating me. But Whatever happens, you're going to be part the message which is coming back to of the successor generation. .. me from women of all ages and all Assuming I keep my seat. backgrounds, Tory women as well Labour women, is, 'we prefer to be Are you opposed then to the health service I'm assuming you will. looked after by a woman thanks very as an employer undertaking a financial I'm assuming I will. I've worked for it. much, especially for anything inti- contribution to the cost of childcare? mate'. And I'm amazed. The resource I think they already do in one or two .. . What's your ambition? Do you want and cultural implications of that are places, and they've been looking at a to be a prime minister, or party leader? very considerable, because 80% of our nursery in London. (Silence.) Look me straight in the eye. GPs are men. And doctors do not I'm thinking about your question. It become available by the wave of a Both you and have been never even occurred to me that anyone magic wand. actively involved in politics and working would even ask that question. And it from when your children were very small. wasn't till I got to Westminster that Will you fight for resources for many more But you have different ways of talking anybody asked me. I've spent all my women to move into health as a about it. For Mrs Thatcher, being a life trying to become a member of profession, given what you've just said? housewife and motherhood is a very parliament. I would need to be convinced of several important part of her vocabulary. For you things before I would say yes to that. it's not. You'd have the opportunity to shape the I'm not sure that money is the answer I'm not a housewife. I'm hopeless in the future and to take power. The men who as such. The problem is the way we run house. are your contemporaries will be thinking, I some kinds of health care. For instance, have no doubt.. . why do we lose staff? You belong to a generation in which the Some of them... majority. . . Low wages? No childcare? ... are working. 70% of women in my .. . about their careers and about their If you think of a 28 year old staff nurse age group are working at paid work, positions in the future leadership of the or sister, the most precious thing we've which is higher, much higher, than the Tory Party. So why aren't you? got in the whole health service - national average. So you've probably Because I don't think I would enjoy it. I trained, qualified, experienced - and identified something that I'm not terr- don't think I would be very good at it. we say to her, 'You're on duty at 7.30 in ibly conscious of. I certainly don't think My interests lie with the welfare side of the morning'. I don't think there's of being a housewife. Ray and I both our community. I have no real experi- another job in the country where we loathe chores. We roughly agreed that ence of business. I have no experience would say to an educated women of 28 if there was something we didn't like of the defence side, I haven't driven a you're on duty at 7.30 in the morning. doing, we'd either get a machine to do tank, or flown a plane, or led a And the other educated woman or man it, or we'd pay someone else to do it, or battalion. in that scenario ain't on duty until 9.30. we'd do without. I'm talking about the doctor. So you Neither has Mrs Thatcher. have to ask why do we do it like that. If So you've bought solutions to domestic And she does very well indeed. But my you start prodding around the answers tasks? interests are entirely domestic. Insofar are rooted in tradition, and deep in Sure, or simply done without it. But a as I have any links at all with other what you and I would call a prejudice housewife is one thing. To be a countries it's partly to find out how about the way people - men and women housewife is to allocate your time. A they're managing on their cervical - should work. But if you challenge it, mother is an emotional task. And I'm a smear campaign, what they're doing in really challenge it... mother. I miss my children. I don't

23 MARXISM TODAY MARCH 1987 think they miss me very much, they've The government have been criticised for I'm a scouser. And I can turn a phrase if been weekly boarders for a long time. being very tardy in getting the cigarette I really feel like it. industry to take responsibility for the There has been debate in Europe about consequences of cigarette addiction. Of There's a side to Thatcherism we haven't legislation on childcare and on time off for course there's a sense in which you depend yet discussed - Mrs Thatcher and Norman parents. Two Conservative NEPs initiated on. . . Tebbit support Mrs Whitehouse and Mrs the EEC proposals for parental leave for The income. Oh, we could always find Gillick, they oppose the liberal sexual mothers and fathers. . . something else to tax, don't worry. legislation of the 60s. What do you feel I was very scathing about them. Governments always do. about the anti-permissive side of Thatch- erism, because it doesn't sound like it fits Have you changed your mind? People have been very disappointed with you. I'm still pretty scathing about it. One of the level of government intervention to I think a lot of Tories also have a very the prime tasks that we have taken on support the campaigns against smoking. tolerant streak. We don't want a rigid with substantial success, although Yes, but the point that I'm making is a society. But the traditions that we value there is still a lot to do, is making sure slightly different one, and I'm not have been repeatedly challenged and that the economy is functioning well. hedging at all, which is that Tories are derided. When a council goes so far as And that means kicking business into very good at listening. We have to to employ people to go into classrooms running itself. If business is prosper- explore how we get messages across. and tell children that homosexuality is ous, if profits are high, then its alright, which they've been trying to do revenues to the exchequer are enor- In the context of Aids, you have expressed in Brent, ordinary people simply blow 'The areas mous and we can do more; so we must forthright views about the need to call a up about it. we have yet keep the costs to business of employ- spade a spade. .. to wade into ment down. What naughty words do you want me to But do you endorse the anti-permissive use? crusade? Do you think Mr Tebbit is right are so Lord Young's campaign for 'deregulation* that the legislation of the 60s has been a obvious, like in the EEC has specifically opposed the I don't know. What would you like to use? bad thing? local extension of employment rights for women You're blushing Bea. The way I've always tried to function is government, and parents. Are mothers' employment this: if somebody needs help or advice, protection and parental leave off your I'm only a young girl after all. What was in then I will try and be a good neighbour that we tend agenda? my mind was the tone of your interven- and be as tolerant as possible. And I to take a First of all it doesn't even seem tions in the Aids conversation, and also in don't feel it's always my business to deep breath necessary because woman have been relation to things like the Clare Short page tick them off, though I occasionally do. before the moving into jobs in very big ways. three issue which suggest it's important to But I do have a worry, which comes Secondly I don't want to impose a you to be seen as a sexual women. I from my time as a councillor. At one next step* conflict between a job and a home. wonder whether you feel that some stage we totted up and we had some- There's no doubt that for very large attacks that have been made on you - and thing like 27,000 single parent families numbers of people in this country, you've had lots, for being forthright - are in Birmingham, which suddenly started wanting to stay at home, wanting to sexist? to create a real problem, because many look after the children when they're In all honesty, before I arrived at of them were not economically viable, little, is a very powerful desire. I don't Westminster I didn't meet any pre- they couldn't manage at all without think there should be any pressure on judice on the basis of sex. And it may be help. And I found myself feeling people to give that up. I would like to that I've just been lucky. It may be increasingly troubled about whether see employment protection in a slightly coming from the North of England, a we'd encouraged the creation of groups different way. I would like to see more part of the North, Liverpool, where of people who were going to be employers giving people time off for women have always worked. London is permanently unhappy, let alone per- good health. There is a lot of time off different. And Fleet Street is different. manently a drain on national resources. for bad health. I'd like to see more Fleet Street has a very old fashioned air So for reasons of sheer practicality, I employers encouraging their staff to go about it. When I came to Westminster I began to think that perhaps we were and get a test, and perhaps have paid got annoyed at the assumption that making it too easy for people to put time off to do this. I'd like to see them because I was a woman I probably themselves in positions of permanent encouraging women to apply for senior didn't have any brains. It's no good dependence. positions. But I don't like imposing bleating about it. You might as well things on employers. I would much simply prove them wrong. Would you want to reverse the legislative rather - and this is where being a Tory changes of the 60s, on abortion, divorce, makes a difference - have good prac- But when some of your colleagues use homosexuality? tice voluntarily and willingly entered expressions like 'iron tits' - that's specific Well, we've just made divorce easier. I into. to you being a women. voted against clause one of the most It doesn't worry me. recent matrimonial clauses legislation You're cautious when it comes to em- which made it easier to get a divorce ployers, but you're really tough when it Doesn't it reflect a culture that makes life after a shorter period of time. So you comes to working people. difficult for women? Do you not feel that can take that whichever way you like. For example? part of your obligation as a woman is to There's an element of let-sleeping- change the world for women? dogs-lie in me, but I wouldn't want to go You don't pull your punches when you're Being at Westminster does that. What's further. telling people off about fags, beer and disappointing is that so few women chips. But you don't say to the employers, then follow. Do you share the tone of the moral crusade who are involved in the production of of people like Mrs Gillick and Mrs alcohol and cigarettes, 'OK, you're part of Are you not hurt by expressions like that? Whitehouse? this deal. We're now going to have a go at Like iron tits? It depends who says I think I'm more of a pragmatist than you*. So you're a bit of a wimp when it them. that. And I do not like crusades that say comes to them. that people swill around in cesspits and How do you know I don't say it? Well, Tory MPs apparently say them. all the rest of it, because in sheer Well, they've never said them to my practical terms that simply doesn't You're not telling us if you are. face. help anyone. Well, I've met most of the drinks organisations. I ask them what they I've no doubt they wouldn't. They You belong to a generation of women who feel we should be concerned about. wouldn't dare. wouldn't see sex as sin.

24 MARXISM TODAY MARCH 1987 Yes, I think that's right for some that I'm now dimly becoming aware of. Tory Party has always been a national women. It's a movement of people - I am party. It's great strength has been that it's generalising, I haven't got the faintest a party that has been into uniting classes The tone of your engagement with all this, idea of whether what I'm saying is true and having a national presence. the sexual agenda.. . - but there seems to be a broad Yes that's right. We are not a class Do you mean is sex fun, is it there to be movement of people who have listened party. We're here to represent the enjoyed? I think that is probably right. to the feminists for years, and rejected nation. I've always felt that I was part of a them all out of hand, but now find fortunate generation - I've talked about themselves in middle age, questioning But aren't you very worried about the it with my mother who said exactly the why it's assumed they can't do these North South divide and the way in which same to me - you're very lucky, you things. They didn't have the opportuni- the party's base in the North, and don't have to worry about all the things ties. particularly in Scotland, is pretty desolate? we used to worry about. And the sad Well, I think one has to wait for the next thing, in many ways, is that those All the Tory women I've interviewed election to see whether that's going to worries are having to come back? thought that if women were doing the be the case. same job as men they should get equal pay, Have you felt any kind of kinship with without exception. Are you worried about the notion of two women of your generation who would Oh yes. nations, and the sense that the Tory Party identify with the women's movement? is a party of the soft South and that it I don't know. I've found myself sub- But, you have said - it's here, in Hansard' doesn't represent the working people of stantially in the world of men. - that women are 'cheap and plentiful' the North? and employers should go for them, that we Are you a man's woman? shouldn't be increasing employment pro- I like being with men. I like working tection, we shouldn't be increasing with men. I like pulling out all the stops women's pay. Now, that doesn't square and trying to figure out how to get my with what you've just been saying. own way, how to get what I am after. I was broadly saying that if we restrict And if that means being slightly business, if we put its costs up, the underhand and teasing them, or flatter- result of that is unemployment. ing them or whatever, I don't give a damn. I'll just do it. It's often a very Why should women be the cheap labour? calculating and manipulative way of Well, it's not why they should be... going about things, but I've always done that. When I came to Westminster But they are... You wouldn't accept two I found I was in an overpowering world thirds of the salaries of the men who do of men, to an almost alarming degree, your job. and I had to dig my heels in a bit more. No, but what I was trying to do in that I think the party represents not the soft But as a minister it's shifted again particular argument, and it doesn't South but the hard South and some hard because a lot of my work brings me into read very well in Hansard, was talk people up North as well. There are a lot contact now with women who are about employment and industrial poli- of people around who are self-made struggling, sick people, dying people, cies. As I said it, as I spoke it, it went men and women who have worked hard very skilled women working as nurses down ok... for what they've got and are providing and pushing themselves very hard and employment to other people. It is better feeling troubled by the illness that I'm sure it did. You also had a go at for the nation if the parties are more they're having to cope with, women Marxism Today. evenly spread geographically, and it is trying to articulate for other women, I often quote Marxism Today. better for the nation if the parties are like the Hackney health promoters I more evenly spread socially. But the met recently who were a tremendous Do you read it regularly? only one that draws from all groups in bunch. I find myself far more in Not absolutely regularly, but I do if I society is us. contact with women who are active and want to find out what the Left are thinking and working than perhaps I thinking. But the argument I was But there are echoes even amongst the ever have before. I've become much making was that women were cheap Tory rank and file, of the same kind of more conscious of women in recent almost for the wrong reasons. I was angst that there was in the 3Os, that there months than ever before. I also find saying that women, as an example, are depressed areas, they're the same that, perhaps as a minister, they turn to were an inexpensive and very flexible areas, for the same reasons. me and expect me to do something for workforce, and that employment of There have been the same problems them. And I've never been put in that women had gone shooting up, and that going back to Elizabeth I's time. position before. therefore if we wanted to increase employment, the wrong way to go about And this time the Tories have said, 'We're So it sounds like you're feeling quite it was to make it more restrictive and not going to try.' changed by it. put more costs on business. I wasn't Well perhaps letting things take their I'm feeling challenged by it, a little endorsing women as a cheap and course, letting industry change, en- unsure, but quite exhilarated. And plentiful workforce. couraging people to look to new worlds, whatever's coming through I test new customers, new markets, perhaps against my Tory ladies in South Der- You didn't say it was a bad thing that almost forcing them to do that, is the byshire. I say 'People in Hackney are women were cheap labour. way that those areas will be rede- saying such and such, what do you That goes back to pragmatism versus veloped. It's no good them sneering think?' If they all nod vigorously and morality, doesn't it? I mean it's a simple about tourism and the hotel industry say 'That's it', I know I'm on to fact. Employment is increasing, espe- and about how that isn't a replacement something. I think the press, and Fleet cially two years ago when I made that for a shipyard. It is a replacement for a Street in particular, are totally out of speech, among part-time, low-paid, shipyard. So therefore if the govern- touch with all of that. That's why I've particularly hourly paid, women. And I ment stay out of it, maybe people will started reading all the women's maga- was trying to draw an economic lesson, find ways that are more efficient to use zines. I used to read Women's Own in a way that had no particular morality local resources. Planners can only when I was a housewife back in the or philosophy attached to it. make things worse not better. 1970s, and it's changed out of all 'March 11, 1985 in a Commons debate on unemploy- recognition. So something's happening Right, let's shift on to North South. The ment.

25 MARXISM TODAY MARCH 1987