Committee for Infrastructure

OFFICIAL REPORT (Hansard)

Ministerial Briefing: Mr Chris Hazzard MLA (Minister for Infrastructure) and Department for Infrastructure Officials

8 June 2016 NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

Committee for Infrastructure

Ministerial Briefing: Mr Chris Hazzard MLA (Minister for Infrastructure) and Department for Infrastructure Officials

8 June 2016

Members present for all or part of the proceedings: Mr William Humphrey (Chairperson) Mr William Irwin (Deputy Chairperson) Ms Kellie Armstrong Mr Alex Easton Mr Paul Girvan Mr Declan McAleer Mr Fra McCann Mr Eamonn McCann Mr Justin McNulty Mrs Jenny Palmer

Witnesses: Mr Hazzard Minister for Infrastructure Mr Peter May Department for Infrastructure Ms Fiona McCandless Department for Infrastructure Dr Andrew Murray Department for Infrastructure

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Good morning. I welcome Mr Chris Hazzard, the Minister for Infrastructure; Mr Peter May, the permanent secretary; Dr Andrew Murray, deputy permanent secretary, roads and rivers; and Ms Fiona McCandless, deputy secretary, planning, water and the Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA). You are very welcome. Over to you. Do you want to make a presentation, Minister, before taking questions?

Mr Hazzard (The Minister for Infrastructure): Yes, Chair. Thanks, and thanks for the opportunity to brief you so early in the term. I am very excited to be the first Infrastructure Minister, so it is good to engage with you straight off the bat. I will take the opportunity to set out what I see as the role of my Department and my ambitions going forward.

As Minister for Infrastructure, I will focus on three levels of activity. First, to place a strategic focus on the infrastructure needs of the North for the next 20 to 30 years; in other words, to recognise that what we do today sets parameters for the next generation and therefore getting it right matters hugely. It takes a long time to get major projects from concept to delivery, but I want to engage with the Committee on that pipeline of projects going forward. Secondly, in this mandate I want to make a real difference in key areas. The Programme for Government (PFG) has two key areas of focus: improving transport connections and increasing the use of public transport and active travel. There is work ongoing to develop action plans on both those issues, but I can set out some key areas of priority today. On transport connections, I want to ensure that we have infrastructure that enables economic

1 growth across the region, including delivery on the A5 and A6 major road schemes. To that end, I will seek early discussions with my ministerial counterpart in the South to ensure that the monetary commitment to the A5 remains intact. I want to place a focus on public transport, delivering Belfast rapid transit (BRT) and advancing the transport hubs in Derry and Belfast. I want to advance the cross-border projects laid out in the Fresh Start Agreement, namely the Narrow Water project and the Ulster canal and to develop and deliver major improvements where the need is greatest. Alongside that, DFI has a major part to play in working with local government in place-making responsibilities. Thirdly, I will intervene as issues arise. On Monday, I demonstrated my commitment to announce proposals to remove oil and gas from permitted development rights. I look forward to working with the Committee to introduce legislation to that end. That is one example.

As the Committee will be aware, the Department for Infrastructure was formed by drawing together functions from several previous Departments, including roads, water and public transport from the Department for Regional Development; strategic planning, road safety and the Driver and Vehicle Agency from the Department of the Environment; Rivers Agency from the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development; inland waterways, including Waterways Ireland, from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure; and Crumlin Road Gaol and the St Lucia site from OFMDFM. The bringing together of those functions presents an exciting opportunity.

Infrastructure is key to building a successful region by driving economic growth and tackling disadvantage, but it is also a vital component in the daily lives of all our citizens, providing vital services that are so important for quality of life. It is easy to take our infrastructure for granted. Roads, public transport and water are such essential services, but we really notice them only when something goes wrong. I strongly believe that investment in our transport and water infrastructure is a key driver for attracting investment and growth and ensuring that we have an equitable regional balance. I will certainly do all I can as Minister to achieve that balance, dispel inequalities and promote and pump-prime economic growth.

I am conscious that this is a five-year mandate and that it will be important to take a long-term strategic view. As members will know, the new Programme for Government is outcomes-based and thus seeks to ensure a more strategic approach to the issues we face as a region. As a new Minister, I am keen to consider the role that the Department can play in contributing to the wider Executive agenda; for example, the contribution that can be made to health and well-being through the promotion of road safety, cycling and the creation of greenways and, indeed, the contribution that my Department's strategic planning function makes to the environmental and economic outcomes of a more confident society moving forward.

Of course, I am well aware that there will be some specific day-to-day matters that will come to the Committee's attention, and I and my officials will be happy to keep you as informed as possible. To that end, it might be useful if Committee members built their understanding of the work of the Department by engaging in site visits to some key locations where they can see the Department's work in action. We would be happy to offer some suggestions if you would find that helpful, and I would be more than happy to make some visits jointly with the Committee as well. I am also happy to listen to ideas and suggestions that the Committee may have on a range of issues and to work with you on them.

Finally, I would like to touch on two brief housekeeping matters, if I may. First, I must apologise for not being able to bring the June monitoring to you at this meeting; unfortunately, I was not able to resolve all the issues arising in time. However, my officials will brief you in the very near future, and I am happy to come back to the Committee to address any issues arising, if necessary. The second thing is that members may have noticed that I have swapped my scheduled Question Time with the Minister of Justice: I will now answer questions for oral answer on Monday 27 June instead of Tuesday 21 June. I apologise if that causes Members any inconvenience; however, I will be attending to important departmental business in the Netherlands from 19 to 22 June. That will involve hosting a TEN-T event in Rotterdam. As members may know, TEN-T is a European-wide network of existing and proposed infrastructure for transport. Going to Rotterdam will provide me with the opportunity to meet several important EU figures in a single visit and will allow me to begin the process of promoting key TEN-T projects here in the North of Ireland. I will also have the opportunity to raise awareness of the challenges and issues that we face as a region while seeing how competing member states and regions plan and perform, to ensure that we stay one step ahead of them.

I look forward to a fruitful relationship with the Committee, and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have. As you can see, I am ably supported here today by Peter, Fiona and Andrew, who will be able to add any detail that you may require. Thank you very much.

2 The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Thank you very much. Before I bring in members who have indicated that they wish to speak, I have a few questions. Obviously, the Committee was keen to discuss the June monitoring round and the budget for 2016-17 with you, but we are not able to do that this morning: what are the reasons for that?

Mr Hazzard: Discussions are ongoing with the Finance Minister, and consideration of all priorities is still taking place. When any information is available, I will provide it to the Committee as soon as possible.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Everybody around the table, as well as the people out there, are keen to be aware of the position not just in your Department but across government. We are disappointed — I am sure that will manifest itself as members come to ask questions — that we have not been able to discuss those matters. I would be keen, as Chair and speaking on behalf of the Committee collectively, to get the information you have as soon as you have it so that we are informed and members can make their judgements and ask questions.

I was speaking to the Committee Clerk yesterday about visits. There are new members on the Committee and new Members in the Assembly — we are all new members of the Committee, although some of us served on the Environment Committee or the other Committees that this one succeeds — so we are keen to make those visits as much as possible and to be out there across the Department. Minister, we heard last week from the civil servants that there was a potential 9% cut to the budget. That is one of the reasons why we were keen to hear your figures on the monitoring round. That would have, I would have thought, a devastating effect on services provided by your Department. Can you update us on that?

Mr Hazzard: I am not aware of the 9% figure that you allude to. However, we all know of the tight economic times that we operate in, and the context of this June monitoring is set in that. I will ask Peter, the permanent secretary, to take up that specific budget issue.

Mr Peter May (Department for Infrastructure): All I can say at this stage is that no Department has been asked to plan on the basis of cuts.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): No Department?

Mr May: Our Department has not been asked to plan on the basis of making cuts at this stage.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): We were also informed that there was a £1 billion backlog in the Department. Either Mr May or the Minister could answer this: how do you intend to start to deal with that?

Mr May: I am happy to start, and I will then hand over to Andrew. The figure comes from an estimate of the total it would take to invest in our current road infrastructure to bring it all up to the requisite standard. It is a long-standing figure, and, clearly, the amount we are able to invest in maintaining our roads is important. It is important on a day and daily basis for people's experiences of travelling the roads, road safety and the potential for damage to vehicles. In recent years and certainly in the last couple of years, we have not been able to invest as much as we would ideally wish to maintain the road network to that standard, and that figure, therefore, has continued to grow as a result. To be clear, though, it is not that the Department could spend £1 billion in a year or even in a couple of years to overcome that; it is a long-term issue rather than something that necessarily impacts in the short term. I will hand over to Andrew to say a little more.

Dr Andrew Murray (Department for Infrastructure): Yes, that is exactly the case. There will always be a backlog of work; there will never be a road network that is all in pristine condition. The backlog is something that we calculate regularly. We know how much money we need to spend to keep the backlog constant. We have recently been spending less than that amount, so the backlog has been increasing and is now at around £1 billion. That is what it would cost to fix everything on the network.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Yes, but, if you just keep on top of the backlog, you are not advancing, are you?

Dr Murray: No. That is correct.

3 The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Members will have questions, and time is limited, but I have one more question. I represent North Belfast, so I just want to make two points about it. You touched on the York Street flyover, which affects not just my constituents but many who travel in and out of the city. There is a huge backlog there, especially — I know this as someone who uses it — in the mornings. Can you give us some meat on the bones of that issue?

Belfast rapid transit is a very exciting project, but it benefits east Belfast and west Belfast. What about north Belfast and south Belfast? What are the plans for them to be included?

Dr Murray: The York Street scheme is now entirely dependent on funding. We have a two-phase contract in place that will advance the contract to a certain stage and leave it effectively shovel-ready when it comes to funding. There are some statutory procedures to go through, but we are advancing that scheme as far as we can. If money becomes available, we would very much like to deliver it. It is a good project, as you know, and it has the opportunity to avail itself of a good percentage of European funding.

BRT is one of the flagship projects. York Street is not a flagship project for the Executive. When I do my second session this morning covering my part of the Department, we will cover the full details of BRT.

Mr Easton: Welcome this morning. I will not give you a hard time in the first meeting. I noticed in your presentation that you mentioned Narrow Water. That went into the background in the last mandate. What makes you so confident that you will be able to progress it this time, and where do you think you will get the funding to progress such a major project?

Mr Hazzard: Section E of the Fresh Start Agreement and the negotiations that took place around that identified cross-border projects that are of strategic interest to the South and the North. We know there were commitments made before on this project. I have already started to engage with my Southern counterpart today on negotiations on this, the Ulster canal and the A5. It will take engagement. It will take engagement with this Committee and perhaps your counterparts in Dublin as well. It is a very strategic project, and I am committed to seeing it delivered.

Mr Easton: Would there be European funding?

Mr Hazzard: There may be. It is something that we will have to explore. We will explore different avenues for funding streams for all these projects. Certainly, Europe is one of those destinations.

Mr Easton: On a more local issue, I do not know what it is like across the rest of Northern Ireland, but in the north Down area we are getting only one grass cut this year and having problems again getting the weeds sprayed. Although you have not been able to progress it yet, as part of your June monitoring round have you tried to get more money for those issues?

Mr Hazzard: Like every Department, we need more money. I do not think any Minister would sit in front of the Committee and say, "It is OK; we have enough money". We have budget pressures that we need to meet. Road maintenance is certainly one of those; we want to see as much finance going into that as possible. We have statutory obligations on road safety, of course, so that is very much part of my aims, yes.

Mr Easton: On another local issue, I am having major problems with street lighting and a lack of response to requests about it. Certainly, I have actually had to go round Bloomfield estate and get the street lamp numbers myself, despite reporting them on numerous occasions and not getting a response. There was money, I understood from the previous Minister, that was to go towards fixing street lighting, but I am still having major problems getting them fixed in the north Down area.

Mr Hazzard: Maybe just before I pass to Andrew, I will say that I am aware that street lighting has been replaced in the first half of the year, but as that is more of an operational matter, I will pass it to Andrew.

Mr Easton: It is just that I keep getting it in the neck.

Dr Murray: I understand. We get a lot of correspondence about street lighting outages. We encourage the public and elected representatives to use the website facility where they can be

4 reported online. You can see on that site whether the outage has been reported before and you do not need to report it again. I think we have been replying to your letters in batches rather than individually.

We currently have money to employ contractors to make repairs. We are fixing all the lights that are out that have come to our attention. We do not have money to continue that service for the full year, but we do, at least, have money to carry out that service for the first half of the year.

Mr Easton: If you could fix Bloomfield for me that would be helpful.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): We are not going into streets.

Mr Easton: My last question is about a major problem with the road infrastructure in Beechfield Drive in Donaghadee. I have been trying to get that resurfaced for a long time. Would the Department look at that in the longer term and maybe get it sorted? Thank you.

Mr Hazzard: There are priorities right across the North. I saw lately that we have publicity out on a number of roads and resurfacing projects around Donaghadee and the north Down area. I have no doubt that will continue into the future. Regarding the specific streets, I have no detail quite yet.

Ms Armstrong: Congratulations, Minister, on your elevation. I am delighted that our constituencies neighbour each other. With that in mind, my first question is this: is there an opportunity to add coastal erosion and coastal defence management to the departmental portfolio, as suggested by the previous Minister for Regional Development? I have grave concerns that the drainage committee will not have the power and money to deliver any actions to address coastal erosion, and I am extremely concerned that the lack of appropriate coastal management will remain unaddressed for another mandate. We both know exactly the impact it can have when roads collapse into the sea, so I just ask whether we can ensure that coastal erosion is looked at. I do not understand how a non-departmental body like the drainage committee can take forward something that is so important.

Mr Hazzard: Thanks for your good wishes. You are 100% right. One of my last actions in the past year as a South Down MLA was to help create a South Down beach forum, which looked at the coast. Coastal erosion is certainly on my radar. I welcomed the moves by Michelle McIlveen last year on the issue, and I look forward to working with the AERA Minister on it. With climate change and everything else, it needs to be on our radar, and I certainly plan to have it there.

Ms Armstrong: That would be very welcome. I constantly hear the Bateman principle being quoted, but unfortunately it is out of date. We need to move beyond that. Thank you very much for that.

I will ask my second and final question, you will be glad to hear. We heard last week about the £1 billion backlog in maintenance and the 9% cut in budget. How will you, as Minister, ensure that, as a matter of road safety, rural roads will be repaired? Will you ensure that the road safety strategy is rural proofed to ensure that rural areas such as my Strangford constituency have a fair allocation of the road maintenance budget? For years — it is getting worse — constituents have been complaining about patches over patches over patches or, where there are white lines or blue lines drawn on the road, so much time goes past that they wear away. Is that the correct way to deliver road maintenance? As we have heard, the House of Commons Select Committee says that the reactive work costs as much as 10 times more than a planned maintenance programme. Will the Minister bring forward, therefore, a planned maintenance programme of road repair that we can see for each of our constituencies so that we can go back to our constituents and say, "It's not going to be patch over patch over patch, spraying tar, throwing stones and moving on to the next one"?

Mr Hazzard: As a representative of a rural area, I am very sympathetic to what the member raises. It is something that I will look at. One of the themes of my time as a Minister will be to look at an infrastructure deficit not just west of the Bann but certainly in rural areas such as south Down, Strangford, south Armagh and other places where the road infrastructure maybe is not what it is in other places. The sense of rural isolation amongst rural communities needs to be addressed. If I can go some way to doing that, that is what I will certainly look to do, but again it goes back to the economic situation. We need to get more flexibility into our budgets, and we need to get this. It is on my desk, and it is something I am working on. I will be talking to officials later this week about something closely related to that.

5 Ms Armstrong: Can we just understand that patching over patches, to be honest, is a difficult thing to live with? Day in, day out, constituents claim damage to cars because of the number of problems they are having.

Mr Hazzard: Yes.

Ms Palmer: Chair, if you will indulge me as one of the new members and one that is not over the brief fully, I want to raise an issue regarding the document that was received this morning. None of us members were given a chance to look at it before we discussed it or had the presentation.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): We will deal with that when we get to that point.

Ms Palmer: Yes, but I think it needs to be addressed.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): We have the Minister for an hour, so we should concentrate on questions to the Minister.

Ms Palmer: I will, Chair.

Minister, I am pleased at the strategic approach that the Department will take to infrastructure. My concern is on the A5 and the possibility that it will not be delivered in all three phases because of some of the major issues around it and whether you have alternatives to restructuring the A5 model that would save money and probably free up some of your budget for the likes of York Street, which the Chair commented on, and even Sprucefield in Lagan Valley. Yes, I am a Lagan Valley representative, but it is one of the strategic networks — north, south, east and west — and the traffic is at a standstill. It is a serious issue. I wonder whether the Department has considered the Sprucefield bottleneck, along with York Street, and whether consideration has been given to addressing those issues. We are trying to open this island for all road users, but every morning there is an absolutely chaotic scenario at York Street and at Sprucefield. It is not being addressed properly.

I want to say something about the possible 9% cut to the budget and the £1 billion backlog. If we have such a backlog in the funding to do the fundamental grass cutting and road repairs, how can we proceed with the rapid transit system, if the roads are not up to standard? We will spend an awful amount of money to implement a new rapid transit system that meets the needs only of parts of this city. The rest of Northern Ireland's roads are an absolute disgrace. What are your considerations for looking at alternatives if there are opportunities that can address the major issues across Northern Ireland and not just Belfast?

Mr Hazzard: I thank the member for wishing me well; I wish her well too. We will both take our time to get into the brief and everything else, so good luck with that. Also, I am aware that the member represents the Lagan Valley constituency. I just want to put it on record that my thoughts are with the family who are recovering from the incident in the storm yesterday in Lisburn. I am sure that all our thoughts are with them, and we wish them well.

Ms Palmer: Thank you, Minister.

Mr Hazzard: On the specific point of the A5, let me be clear: to a large extent, there has been a deficit in investment in infrastructure in the west for the best part of 50 or 60 years. I intend to do what I can to address that in the next five years. That is a hell of a challenge, but it is something I will do. No doubt we all have infrastructure priorities that we would love to see for our constituencies, but, as a region, west of the Bann, places like Derry and, indeed, rural areas have in my opinion been starved of vital infrastructure investment over a longer time. Yes, there may be issues regarding congestion around Sprucefield that we need to look at. For me, it is not an either/or situation. The A5 and the A6 are strategic projects for this region and the north-west up into Donegal. They are major transport routes from Dublin, so they will remain a priority for the Department and me going forward.

Belfast rapid transit is exactly the type of innovative public transport system that we need. To a large extent, we are reliant on rural roads and our car network here in the North, but we need to get innovative in thinking about public transport. We need to see the direction of travel, if you will excuse the pun, and the need for multimodal and active transport measures. We need to be innovative with these ideas. The Belfast rapid transport system suits the bill entirely. It is a very exciting project, and I look forward to it. I hope it is very successful in dealing with congestion in and around Belfast as well.

6 I have to disagree with you on that point: I think that, especially for the money that will be spent, it seems great value, and it will get people excited about public transport in Belfast.

Ms Palmer: May I ask a supplementary question, Chair?

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Yes.

Ms Palmer: I appreciate your answer, Minister, and it was very forthright. I recognise that the A5 goes to Donegal and is a link to part of Ireland, but the Dublin route is the A1, and it is the Sprucefield bottleneck that creates that mess coming into the city. That is a strategic link across the island. I just do not know why no priority is given to dealing with those bottlenecks. Belfast comes to a standstill. From Loughbrickland the whole way into Belfast, we are bumper-to-bumper every morning. We cannot just ignore one strategic link road across the island because of the A5 and have the complete budget spent on that. We need to address all the arterial routes along the island. That is where I disagree with you, Minister: I know that you give priority to the A5 and A6 and the west, but I have to say that the south-east really needs some of that investment. Lagan Valley, as usual, with Sprucefield, the Maze development and the infrastructure not being addressed, seems to be the poor relation in Northern Ireland. I will fight tooth and nail to get my message across.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Does the member have a question?

Ms Palmer: That is it, Chair.

Mr McNulty: Welcome this morning, Minister. Congratulations on your appointment, and I wish you success in your new and challenging role.

Over the past number of years, we have seen rail services between Belfast and Newry become less frequent and more expensive. There are 46 trains from Portadown to Belfast every day and only 10 from Newry. The last train leaves Belfast for Portadown at 11.00 pm, while the last train to Newry leaves at 8.00 pm. Many of us, including one of your party colleagues, Conor Murphy, have supported a petition that highlights the inequality in rail provision. Now that you are in a position to stop that inequality, what do you intend to do about it? You mentioned the congestion in and around Belfast. Ms Palmer mentioned that it is bumper-to-bumper from Loughbrickland in the morning. Thousands upon thousands of people in my constituency get in their car every morning to travel to Belfast because there is inadequate rail provision. What do you intend to do to address that inequality?

Mr Hazzard: Again, thanks for the good wishes, and the same to you on coming into the Assembly.

One of the great success stories in public transport lately, I suppose, has been the rise in the usage of our trains. The railways have been a success — probably one of the greatest travesties of the old Stormont regime was when it got rid of our railways a number of years ago — and we can certainly look to build on that. One of the issues, of course, is the Newry line. I am getting a briefing from officials next week on that issue. Again, I am more than happy to meet the member and the campaign group to discuss the issue further.

Mr McNulty: I have one other point about the rural road network in Newry and Armagh. Ms Armstrong mentioned that there were patches over patches; we would love to have patches in Newry and Armagh. [Laughter.] Will you give a commitment to the people of Newry and Armagh that there will be a programme of repairs to deal with the potholes that create dangerous driving conditions and cause damage to vehicles on a weekly and daily basis? If so, when will that commence?

Mr Hazzard: The programme of repairs is ongoing. Road maintenance takes place every year. I am from a neighbouring constituency, South Down, and I know all too well about rural roads. We talked about the need for improvement. Again, it is about prioritisation and utilising whatever money we have to get the best value out of it. I intend to do that, and rural roads will certainly be part of that package.

Mr McNulty: Thank you, Minister.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): I call Mr McCann.

Mr F McCann: Chair —

7 Mr E McCann: Yes — sorry.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): I was looking at that Mr McCann — Eamonn McCann.

Mr E McCann: There are so many of us.

I want to ask you a couple of specific questions about road maintenance and so forth in specific places. I want to ask a question about the Groarty Road in Derry. You will not have heard of it; that is OK. Along that small, narrow road, there is Groarty Integrated Primary School. There is a very serious situation, in my view and that of all the parents, outside that small school. I have met the parents, and they are all alarmed that that narrow road has a speed limit of 60 mph. How it came to have a speed limit of 60 mph I am not sure, but clearly, at a glance, you can see that it should not. The road passes the school, and the school directly abuts the road; there is no gap. The result is that, if kids come running out of the school, as they do no matter how much you try to restrain them, they will run directly onto the road. Nobody has been killed there yet, but there have been a number of near misses. Someone was brushed so closely that they fell down, and it terrified them. I am not being alarmist — I really am not. It is always possible that not a thing will happen for 50 more years, but we have had a recent experience of such a situation. I am not blaming anybody, but a situation arose that perhaps should not have.

Sorry for taking so long at this. The key is that the headmaster of the school — I have spoken to the teachers and the parents — says that there was a plan and that the former Minister, Danny Kennedy, visited the school and gave people an assurance, "Yes, we will either widen the road and put in speed bumps, or we may have a lay-by so that people can park and cars are not passing cheek by jowl with people". That never happened. The school was told — this is from the headmaster of the school; I am not directly involved in it — that it was not being picked on and should not feel too aggrieved about it because a series of small jobs like that had had to be postponed. I do not believe that there was a series of situations exactly like the one on the Groarty Road. There were probably other things, but, if it is the case, as I believe it to have been, that what Danny Kennedy promised for the Groarty Road was not done because of a much wider budgetary decision that meant that we had to cancel that category of work — I am not asking you to answer now — would you look into that? Is it OK for me to tell the headmaster of Groarty, "The Minister is looking into it, and we will come back to you"? I assure you that, if you want to go down and visit, you will be shocked. Something has to be done. We cannot go into another school year. Will you undertake to look at that?

Mr Hazzard: I thank the member again for his good wishes at the start, and the same to you. I am happy to look at that. As you say, I am not aware of the issue, but I am more than happy to look at it.

Mr E McCann: You talked about visiting places. At some stage, I will suggest to the Committee that it visits places, but would you care to visit the Waterside train station in Derry? It is disused at the moment. There is a little egg box-shaped building that is being used as a rail terminus. The building that is sitting there and that should be used was opened in 1874. It was designed by John Lanyon and is one of the architectural jewels of Derry — a grade B building. It is site-specific. It was built with stone from the Mournes, and it faces over to Derry's walls. It was designed to complement those two things. As I say, it is site-specific and is not the type of station that you will find here, there and everywhere. It is deteriorating because it has not been used. It survived being bombed twice in the 1970s. It survived, with a big struggle, the Benson report in the 1960s. Why is it not open? It is sitting there. Could you look into that? What progress has been made in NIR buying the building from the private owner, who says he is perfectly willing to sell, and it being used as a rail terminus fit for a regional capital rather than how it is being used at the moment?

If you come down to visit it — I invite you to do so — come down by train. Come down through Downhill and Castlerock. You will arrive dizzy with what you have just seen and then take a look at our station. It is one of the glories of the transport system in Northern Ireland. Please come down and visit it and meet the rail workers and rail users. There is huge support for this. It is a conservation issue in many ways, and they do not usually excite the public all that much.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Your point has been very well made.

Mr E McCann: I will leave it there.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Minister, I will leave it with you.

8 Mr Hazzard: I am well aware of the issue. I believe that negotiations are ongoing with the developer. A Derry transport hub, as you outline, will be a fantastic asset for the north-west. It is something that I want to deliver on, and it is needed for the region. I travelled by train to Derry for the party ard-fheis a number of years ago. As you said, it is a splendid route, and the potential in that building and that project is exciting for the city. I plan to visit the north-west very shortly, so it could well be part of that.

Mr E McCann: You mentioned a transport hub. Some of us in the rail campaign in Derry are a wee bit suspicious that a transport hub at that station may not necessarily mean bringing the station back into use as a rail terminus: can you enlighten us on that?

Mr Hazzard: I will pass that to Peter for more specific details.

Mr May: Certainly, the transport hub would include a rail dimension. There are alternative sites.

Mr E McCann: Dimension?

Mr May: It will be a rail link directly. Negotiations are ongoing with the developer in respect of that site, and there is another site that is also a possibility. We are looking to advance those quickly.

Mr E McCann: Sorry, I have to follow up. You say that another site is a possibility: we had a public consultation, and 64% of respondents in Derry, in what was a high turnout, wanted the old station. The city council and all the major parties have come on board with that, as suggested by Into the West. You are now saying that it is not certain and you cannot guarantee that that station will be used as a rail terminus. Is that what you are saying?

Mr May: When there is a negotiation ongoing, nobody would sensibly adopt the position that there is only one solution. We are doing our best to bring it to a resolution. That, clearly, is the preferred site, which is why there are ongoing negotiations. However, it is dependent on its being economically viable.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): We need to be fair to all members and try to fit them in.

Mr Irwin: Grass cutting, which was touched on, is an issue right across Northern Ireland. The criteria are for one swathe of the mower. The same thing happens at major junctions, which creates a health and safety aspect and can leave them in a very dangerous condition. I have contacted Roads Service on occasions and have had great difficulty getting it to mow further back at junctions. That issue needs to be looked at. Contractors are told that they get paid only for one swathe, and, at major junctions that are accident black spots, it is dangerous when grass is still growing. In some areas, local people have cut the grass back themselves.

Another issue is potholes and their criteria. C-class roads, for instance, are checked only every nine months. That means that, if a pothole is below the threshold today and is not checked again for nine months, it will be a major pothole by that time. In one instance, there were 18 claims not a mile and a half from my house, which cost in the region of £7,000 when I am sure that £20 would have repaired the pothole. That is a major issue that the Minister needs to gets to grips with. We all know that there are cutbacks and that criteria need to be in place, but those criteria are certainly not working. Does the Minister agree with that?

Mr Hazzard: You have raised some technical issues on which Andrew will be able to fill you in a lot better than me. We need not only to look at this sort of maintenance but to explore innovative solutions. I will engage with divisional managers across the North over the next number of weeks about different ideas and approaches. During recent snowstorms, for example, the farming community played a great role in helping out. Maybe there are possibilities that we are not seeing at the minute that could help us as we go forward. Those are the sorts of innovative ideas that I want, and no doubt the Committee has its own ideas. I would be delighted to hear if anybody has ideas on how we can do this to a better standard. We are dealing with budget constraints, and we have statutory obligations to maintain road safety and ensure that that is what is done. I will pass to Andrew now on the more technical issues that you raised.

Dr Murray: The first issue was grass cutting. Along roads, it is the case that we cut only one swathe. At junctions, we should also cut the sight lines, and we should return to the sight lines if they become

9 dangerous. If you are aware of any cases where that is not happening, bring them to our attention. We should be doing those.

Mr Irwin: It is not happening in places.

Dr Murray: Even if we do not get any more money in monitoring rounds, we will still be able to provide the sight line service throughout the year.

We have had to change the standards of inspection for identifying surface defects and potholes and their repair. The inspection frequency is not nine months. The policy is on our website, so you can see what we do. We have reduced the inspection frequency, and some of the lower categories of defect are not being repaired simply because there is not enough money to do that throughout the Province at present. We are in the good position that, if there is further money through monitoring rounds, we will be able to ramp that service back up again, as we did at the end of the last financial year.

Mr Irwin: In anybody's eyes, paying out in the region of £7,000 on one pothole that £20 would have fixed seems crazy. Even Roads Service personnel were shaking their heads in disgust.

Dr Murray: We have a thing called a structural maintenance funding plan, which tells us how much money we need to resurface roads and surface dress them at the correct frequency. It allows a certain amount for patching because you always need some patching. We are currently funded at below that level, so we cannot carry out that resurfacing at the frequencies that we should. The consequence of that is that we get more potholes, and those have to be repaired. At the moment, we do not even have the money to repair all the potholes. It is a difficult position, and all Departments are in a difficult position at present. That is where we find ourselves.

Mr Irwin: I understand, but a pot of money is set aside for claims, and it is getting bigger. It would be prudent to reduce that and use it properly.

Mr McAleer: Minister, I welcome you to the Committee, and I congratulate you on your appointment.

I will resist following the railways theme, as the last train left Tyrone over 50 years ago. I welcome your comments in recognising the regional imbalance that we see west of the Bann. That is compounded by the fact that the last train left Tyrone over 50 years ago. The Programme for Government refers to the A5 and the A6. I understand that we are at public inquiry stage with the A5; I think that your predecessor called for that. In general, the public probably want to know when they will see boots on the ground and work commencing. Can you give any indication of when people will see boots on the ground for the A5 and the A6?

Mr Hazzard: I thank the member for his good wishes. I want a focus on the west of the Bann, although I cannot and will not promise to bring trains back to Tyrone. People are often interested in timescales. I would like to think that the A6 project will be under way in a matter of weeks or, if not, a very few short months. With the A5, we are looking at next year, 2017. On the specifics of that, I am undertaking talks with my officials later today, as I have been doing ever since I came to the Department — they will continue next week — on refocusing, re-prioritisation and giving the A5 and the A6 the fresh focus that they need. They maybe slipped off the radar of the previous Minister in recent years, and I want to address that.

Mr McAleer: Thank you, Minister. I do not want to go over old ground, and I support all your comments. However, many of us here represent rural areas, and I want to flag up again the issue of rural roads, as other members have done. Connectivity in general, rural roads and broadband are massive issues in rural areas. I want to support and reiterate what has been said about rural roads. It is a massive, massive issue. Minister, given that it is such a pressing issue, are you minded to put a focus on that and perhaps have a wee initiative on rural roads in conjunction with your divisional roads managers?

Mr Hazzard: As I outlined previously to members, as someone who comes from a rural area and travels the rural roads regularly, I see it with my own eyes. No doubt the previous Minister received plenty of letters from me on the issue. I am happy to look at proposals. If the Committee or particular members have ideas on anything, I am more than happy to engage with them. I would couch that in

10 terms of the wriggle room that we have with our budget and what we want to do. We could deliver a swathe of things if we had the money to do it, but we need to be mindful of that.

Mr F McCann: I welcome the Minister to the meeting this morning and congratulate him on his elevation.

I have a couple of points. First, the Chair mentioned the York Street flyover: is there any possibility of TEN-T funding being available for that project? I know that you are at a conference shortly. Could the possibility of tapping into funding for that be raised there? Secondly, one of the big difficulties that people face, especially in urban areas such as Derry, Belfast and Newry, is the invasion that takes place every day. Thousands of people swamp communities with cars, and it stops emergency vehicles like ambulances and fire appliances getting in to deal with serious problems. Many of those communities are crying out for residents' parking schemes. I know that that was on the agenda a while ago. Maybe you could give me a wee update on where that is.

Mr Hazzard: Thanks again for your good wishes. I will start with the York Street issue. We hope to talk about that project in Rotterdam in a couple of weeks' time, as well as the strategic importance of getting the likes of Derry onto the core network. European funding is one avenue that we will look at. As is the case with an awful lot of our projects, the previous Department had success in recent years in attracting and increasing European funding. It will be important that we have a better understanding of how we can improve this further. That is very much part of our discussions.

As far as I am aware, there was work on car parking in Derry and Belfast. I want to return to that as well. We touched on the Belfast rapid transport project. I hope that that will go some way to alleviating the problem in both sides of the city. You are right: car parking can cause frustration for inner-city communities. I am more than happy to discuss the matter with the member further. We will look at the issue again.

Mr F McCann: I have one final point on rapid transport. Sometimes, when you come to these Committees, there is a fairly anti-Belfast attitude.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Hear, hear.

Mr F McCann: We talk about the traffic coming into Belfast: they are all coming in for employment. The constituency that I live in, the constituency that the Chair represents and others have generational unemployment. They would be only too glad to take up some of the jobs that people drive into Belfast to get. Rapid transport could end up offering an opportunity to take people from some of the most socially deprived areas in the North to places of employment in the east of the city.

Mr Hazzard: The member is 100% right: if we look at that scheme — east to west and Titanic Quarter — we see that it opens it out, as you say. If there is potential growth to include the universities in a later phase, that would be fantastic because you are opening up the very heart of the city to the communities that you mentioned. That is the sort of thing that we will do. It is not just about public transport; it is about breaking down barriers and reintegrating our city. That is very important.

Mr Girvan: Thank you, Minister. You are welcome this morning. Congratulations. As everyone else has done, I wish you well. Does this bode well for an easy ride? I do not know; we will wait to see.

I want to comment on priorities in the budgets being set in the Department for ring-fenced moneys. A comment has been made about money set aside to deal with claims while you have little or no money to deal with maintenance. Some claims are down to money not being spent on maintenance. How can we square that circle to ensure that money is sent in the right direction?

Everything seems to be local here this morning; at times, I thought that I was sitting in a council meeting. We need to look strategically at what we are attempting to do with our network. We are adding mileage to it with major projects, some of which could be imaginative. I will be like everyone else and talk about something local. There is an imaginative local scheme that could, without costing the public purse one penny, deliver a relief road for a major town: I am talking about Ballyclare. There is a project that could be brought forward in conjunction with the private sector to deliver a relief road in that area. The scheme is used in other jurisdictions, where the private sector has had to deliver a road but maybe does not have the capital to do it because its scheme is a 20-year scheme, and there is a way of paying it back over the 20 years. I ask the Minister to look at some imaginative projects and ways forward. Do not throw the baby out with the bathwater because we have not done it before.

11 It is being done elsewhere. If it can be done elsewhere without costing the public purse a penny, why do we not try it? Why can we not make —

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Sorry to interrupt, Mr Girvan, but the microphones in the Senate Chamber are very sensitive. Clearly, at least one member has a mobile phone close to a mic, which is interfering with the recording. I ask members to be careful with the use of mobile phones. Sorry, Mr Girvan.

Mr Girvan: I have had a long conversation with my sectional engineer and his team covering the eastern division, and they tell me that they are hamstrung because of the lack of budget for maintenance. I am bending their ear weekly, creating grief for them, and they tell me that they cannot deal with it. I am frightened because we have major potholes. Car tyres are being lost and car suspensions are probably being destroyed, and we end up with claims for everything. As a consequence, when will we enter into a proper debate on how budgets will be prioritised?

Mr Hazzard: I thank the member for his good wishes. I want to approach this from the angle that nothing is off the table. I have said that, when we are looking for solutions, we need to be innovative. I do not know the scheme you mention, but I caution that private schemes often end up costing the public purse in the long run, particularly if previous experience is anything to go by. However, I am not aware of that scheme.

As I said, I want to approach this role by working with you and bringing forward solutions with officials and the sector as a whole. We need to be innovative and think about things that we have not tried before. You mentioned the budget constraints that we are under. TNI has to shoulder more of the weight when it comes to reductions because of our protections for NI Water and Translink. I presume that that is what you were referring to. We will have to look at that. We know the situation with Translink, and the public transport system needs investment.

Starting off fresh in the first two weeks, I am approaching things from the point of view that we need to be innovative and transformative, and we need to consider all options.

Mr May: A couple of members mentioned the claims budget, and we are happy to provide the Committee with details of the amount that is paid out each year in claims. To give a sense of the order of magnitude, you are talking about a maximum of a handful of millions of pounds paid out through claims each year — perhaps £3 million or £4 million. There is a risk that that figure will grow somewhat if the road network deteriorates. We are very conscious of that, and we have seen some increase in the number of claims recently, but we are not talking about the claims budget being on anything like the scale of the wider road maintenance budget. I wanted to make members aware of that as an order of magnitude issue. We can write with the detail of the precise amount that has been paid out in previous years.

Mr Girvan: There is a bit of a crossover, because another Department seems to make a life out of creating work for lawyers. Whether they are well-meaning or not, I do not know, but they wish to benefit from other people's misfortune, and, as a consequence, the Department ends up footing the bill on many occasions. We pay twice, because we pay through DOJ and pay money through another Department to settle those claims.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): We have managed to get round everyone within the timescale.

Minister, I hope that this is the first of many meetings between the Committee and the Department, with you as the political head and Mr May as the Civil Service head. It is important to have ongoing engagement and consultation on policy. Ongoing briefings on those policies and consultations would also be helpful so that the Committee is not blindsided on any issues and we are at all times fully briefed and cognisant of what is happening. That will lead to good government and, obviously, a better relationship between your Department and the Committee. That is in everyone's interests. I hope that, as Minister and permanent secretary, you will both agree to that.

Mr May, on Mr Girvan's point about figures for claims, it would be useful if we had a breakdown of the figures across the 18 constituencies.

Mr May: I do not know whether the figures are available on a constituency basis. Claimants may live in a different constituency to the one in which they incurred damage to their vehicle. I need to explore whether they are capable of being broken down. That may not be straightforward.

12 The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): It is better to have the information that Mr Girvan asked for on where the incident took place as opposed to where the person lived.

Mr May: I will see what is possible by way of breakdown.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): Where the person lived would skew those figures.

Thank you very much. Just before you go, will the Department commit to briefing the Committee on the summary of responses to any consultations?

Mr May: It would be normal for us to provide a summary to the Committee, and then, if the Committee wishes, officials would come before it.

The Chairperson (Mr Humphrey): That is great. Thank you very much.

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