Vol. 725 Thursday No. 118 3 March 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Apprenticeships: Network Rail Railways: Light Rail Vehicles Israel and Palestine Health: Care and Compassion? Charities Bill [HL] First Reading Business of the House Timing of Debates Eight Statutory Instruments Motions to Refer to Grand Committee Postal Services Bill Committed to Committee Postal Services Bill Order of Consideration Motion International Women’s Day Debate News Corporation/BSkyB Merger Statement Forestry Commission Debate Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No. 2) Bill First Reading Clothing Industry: Ethical and Sustainable Fashion Question for Short Debate

Grand Committee Pensions Bill [HL] Committee (2nd Day)

Written Statements Written Answers

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 1169 Apprenticeships: Network Rail[3 MARCH 2011] Apprenticeships: Network Rail 1170

Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, can I draw my House of Lords noble friend’s attention to the success of the National Skills Academy for Nuclear, in which I declare an Thursday, 3 March 2011. interest as its honorary president? It has successfully built up a programme of training for all levels of staff, 11 am including large numbers of apprentices, for which it has secured the support of a large part of the industry Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Liverpool. and its supply chain. This is a something that might be an exemplar to other similar organisations. Apprenticeships: Network Rail Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, my noble friend is Question absolutely right. It came as a surprise to me that we now go from hairdressing to nuclear decommissioning 11.07 am as apprenticeships in this country, which is very worthy. Asked By Lord Bradshaw Baroness Kramer: My Lords, the Minister will be To ask Her Majesty’s Government what aware that there is a desperate shortage of civil engineers encouragement they are giving to Network Rail in this country. I believe that in the core team of civil and other large organisations to increase the number engineers on the Crossrail project there is not a single of apprenticeships on offer. member under the age of 60. In looking at these schemes, will she give some priority to civil engineering Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, Network Rail has a because the need is serious and desperate? direct funding contract with the Skills Funding Agency, as can any company with 5,000 or more staff. The Baroness Wilcox: I am sorry to hear my noble Skills Funding Agency encourages and supports these friend’s news that all those people are over the age of large organisations, enabling them to increase the number 50. I shall look into this when I get back. I cannot of apprenticeship places they offer and address their imagine— wider skills needs. Noble Lords: Sixty. Lord Bradshaw: I thank the Minister for that reply. Does she agree that it is urgently necessary to increase Baroness Wilcox: Was it 60? Good heavens. I shall the status of apprentices in our country? Does she look into this when I get back. We must be missing out further agree that professional institutions, be they in somewhere. engineering or nursing, by adopting a graduate-only approach to membership of those institutions, are Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, does the making it very unattractive for people to pursue noble Baroness recognise the importance of apprenticeships? The way of entering used to be apprenticeships across big organisations, as the noble apprenticeship, further education, practical experience Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has said—not only Network and then fellowship. Rail—and where the Government’s funding is focused. Will she ensure that the quality of those apprenticeships is maintained and not in any way Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I agree with pretty diluted to ensure that the speed of getting people well everything my noble friend has just said. through does not in any way denigrate the apprenticeship Apprenticeships should provide a pathway into the qualification? nursing profession as they always did. The Government are working with professional bodies and have made it Baroness Wilcox: The noble Baroness makes a good clear that they expect apprenticeships to be a line into point. We are aware of it and we are monitoring it any professional standards and to be suitable recognised carefully. by the relevant professional body. Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, will my noble Lord Berkeley: My Lords, the Minister will be friend undertake to ensure that her department works aware of the excellent scheme that Network Rail operates closely with the Department for Education in considering in its training and apprenticeships but, bearing in the recommendations trailed in the press today from mind that the Government are proposing much longer the excellent Professor Alison Wolf in relation to passenger franchises and that there is also a large vocational education? Will she look in particular at number of contractors and suppliers in the industry, the package of incentives which may be necessary to will she ensure that the apprenticeship schemes that deliver high quality apprenticeships for young people the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, was talking about can over and above some of the perhaps less well founded be extended to other parts of the industry? quasi vocational qualifications?

Baroness Wilcox: Yes, my Lords, I can. Already Baroness Wilcox: My noble friend is referring of more than 200 forms of apprenticeships are being course to Professor Wolf’s review, which was extended across the country. I am quite sure that the commissioned by this Government. It raises a number noble Lord, whose knowledge of his industry is so of interesting points. We are considering her good, will know that we are working very hard to recommendations and will issue a response in the near extend exactly what he has asked for. future. 1171 Apprenticeships: Network Rail[LORDS] Railways: Light Rail Vehicles 1172

Lord Sugar: Will the noble Baroness allow me to go on many branch lines and other places, and costs off the rails for one moment and generalise on could be reduced. They are an alternative to the welcome apprenticeships overall? The coalition Government announcement made two days ago about the intercity have announced that they will provide 75,000 new express programme, where I understand that the places between now and 2014-15, which seem to be procurement costs for that particular train were £30 million focused on adults. There does not seem to be any other for the department. kind of provision for 16 to 18 year-olds. But more to the point— Earl Attlee: My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned the Parry People Mover vehicle. We will encourage Noble Lords: Question. such developments. My officials in the department work closely with Mr Parry and they are working hard Lord Sugar: The question is coming. I have been to resolve some of the technical difficulties. asking my colleagues here why I seem to attract heckling. More to the point, the Government have decided to Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, it took two to three axe Train to Gain, which provided 575,000 jobs, and years for the department to approve one vehicle which, the future jobs fund, which provided 100,000 jobs to as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said, has proved people who were out of work for more than a year. My very satisfactory in service. Will the noble Earl ensure question is— that, in the future, his department and the safety authorities get a move on and get something done? Noble Lords: Yes. Earl Attlee: My Lords, my noble friend has rightly Lord Sugar: If we bundle all these into some form raised an issue about the time taken for approval. of initiative for providing work for the young and However, I have to say that Mr Parry is a bit of a those who are out of work, what is the net reduction in pioneer. The vehicle comprises some very new and initiatives that has resulted from their cuts? pioneering technology so there are a lot of issues to be resolved. Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, the number of new apprentices in this past year is 279,000 of whom quite Lord Kinnock: May I remind the Minister that a few are very young. As the noble Lord knows, we Mr Parry has been pioneering this technology for at have a very special pay arrangement which was set up least 30 years? Many congratulations are owed to him by his Government to ensure that we attract youngsters. on his persistence as well as his genius. Could I add to I am so delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Sugar, has the various qualities of the Parry People Mover which asked a question because it has given me the opportunity have been listed by other noble Lords the fact that it is to say once again how marvellous his programme is entirely made in Britain? That distinguishes it from for attracting apprentices into business, but that the many other forms of transport. aggressive tone he uses on the programme might not be attracting people into nursing and the quieter causes that we still so very much need in this country, including Earl Attlee: The noble Lord is quite right, but I the youngsters to whom he is referring. have to say that the Parry People Mover is not a perfect vehicle. It has some technical issues, particularly with ride quality. However, I know that Mr Parry is Railways: Light Rail Vehicles working on those issues. Question Lord Roberts of Llandudno: Will the Minister give 11.14 am us an assurance that, in considering passenger travel, the strength of the rails will not be reduced so that Asked By Lord Berkeley they cannot take freight as well? We are trying to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the remove as much freight as possible from the roads on Rail Value for Money Study by Sir Roy McNulty is to rail. I am thinking especially of routes such as the considering the use of light rail vehicles to provide Conwy Valley line where it is essential that the rail link low-cost passenger train operations on lower-traffic is sufficiently strong to carry freight. routes. Earl Attlee: My noble friend has made an important Earl Attlee: My Lords, the Rail Value for Money and interesting point. However, one of the advantages Study is considering a range of options, a number of of a light rail scheme is that the maintenance load on which might encourage more use of light rail vehicles. the track is considerably reduced because of the lower axle loads of the light rail vehicles. Lord Berkeley: I am grateful to the noble Earl for that fairly short Answer. I am sure he will be aware Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, given the number that a light rail vehicle called the Parry People Mover of places in the country where a light rail solution to has been operating in Stourbridge at probably 99 per transport needs would be most welcome, does the cent reliability all the way through the winter, which is noble Earl accept that the issue of ride quality is fairly much better than most other trains. Will he encourage marginal, given that we are talking about the short this company and others to continue to develop these distances to be covered? I hope that he will show some light railways, which use low-weight, low-emission enthusiasm for making progress in this respect and not vehicles that are much more reliable? They can be used wait on the report of the McNulty study. 1173 Railways: Light Rail Vehicles[3 MARCH 2011] Israel and Palestine 1174

Earl Attlee: My Lords, I should like to make it quite Lord Dykes: My Lords, I thank the Minister for clear that, personally, I am very enthusiastic about that Answer, but is this not exactly the right time when light rail vehicles. One of the advantages of the Parry the Netanyahu Government could now display some People Mover is that it is extremely energy-efficient. wisdom by responding to the EU part of the quartet’s But I also have to point out that Network Rail had to suggestions for a freeze on settlements and the immediate undertake improvements to the line to achieve an resumption of talks with the Palestinian Authority, to acceptable ride quality for passengers. lead to a solution equitable to both new states?

Lord Dubs: The Minister will be aware that a number Lord Howell of Guildford: My noble friend is quite of branch lines were closed many years ago under the right that now ought to be exactly the right time. It Beeching programme and other stupid cuts. Does he ought to be very much more the time than was the case think that the light rail vehicle might be a way of even a few weeks ago. However, we have to face the reopening such lines on an economic basis? I mention, reality that obviously the Israeli Government feel extremely for example, the line that runs from Penrith to Keswick nervous and uncertain about what is to happen in in the Lake District. Egypt, while we are urging more decisive action and firm decisions. Still, that does not deter us at all from Earl Attlee: I do not know about that particular pushing very hard on this central issue. line but the noble Lord makes the extremely good point that there will be opportunities to use light rail Lord Wright of Richmond: One month ago, on on old, disused lines. 11 February, I asked in this House whether the Government would upgrade the status of the Palestinian Lord Greaves: My Lords, does the Minister recall general delegation in London. Does the Minister agree, that the last time the railways got enthusiastic about when I ask that question again, that it would in fact be getting cheap and cheerful, lighter vehicles to try to a small but important signal of the Government’s reduce costs, we ended up with a generation of pacers support for a Palestinian state as the result of a about 30 years ago. Whatever happens with this project, two-state solution? the technology certainly has to be a great deal better than that. Lord Howell of Guildford: I agree it is a very important matter, worth considering, but I am afraid my answer Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am aware of the pacer at the moment to the noble Lord is that we are still vehicles and I agree with much of what my noble looking at it—in a positive light and in light of the friend says. need to upgrade the negotiations and get momentum behind them—but we have not reached a decision yet. Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, would Mr Parry not do well to reflect on what happened to the light Lord Anderson of Swansea: Does the Minister agree rail plant in Workington, which was closed effectively that whatever the effect of the unrest, the fundamental in the 1980s due to reductions in public expenditure? fact remains that it is the United States that will have the key role, if it so chooses, in the peace process and, Earl Attlee: My Lords, I was not in Parliament in further, that our own potential role is hampered by the the 1980s. fact that many Israeli politicians and military people stand the danger of being arrested in this country if they were to come? What are the prospects for Clause 151 Israel and Palestine of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, Question which at least would allow the DPP to interpose his judgment, rather than that of a magistrate, before a private prosecution takes place? 11.21 am Asked By Lord Dykes Lord Howell of Guildford: As the noble Lord knows, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment the Government intend to amend the law so that a they and the Middle East Quartet have made of the private individual cannot obtain an arrest warrant effects of recent civil unrest in Arab countries on under universal jurisdiction without the consent of any resumption of Palestinian-Israeli negotiations. the Director of Public Prosecutions. We are quite pleased with progress—the legislation passed through The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Second Reading in early December and we expect the Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, at a time Bill to have Royal Assent before July. The problem has of great regional uncertainty, the quick resumption of been recognised and action is being taken. negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians is more vital, not less. We need to show that legitimate aspirations Lord Janner of Braunstone: Does the noble Lord for statehood can be met through negotiations. The agree that the recent civil unrest and changes in the entire international community, led by the Middle region provide a unique opportunity for both Israel East quartet, should now support the 1967 borders as and the Palestinians? Does he agree that, if they are the basis for resumed negotiations. The result should finally joined by other democratic nations in a fully be two states, with Jerusalem as the future capital of negotiated settlement, that would be best for all the both, and a fair settlement for refugees. people in the region? 1175 Israel and Palestine[LORDS] Health: Care and Compassion? 1176

Lord Howell of Guildford: I strongly agree and I am Baroness Tonge: Does the Minister agree that this very pleased to hear the noble Lord, whose views I would be a good time to agree with the signatories of greatly respect and who has stood up often as a the letter in the Guardian this morning that all arms somewhat lone voice in public affairs in these matters, sales from this country to Middle Eastern states, including say what he has just said. It is an extremely valuable Israel, should be suspended? contribution. Lord Howell of Guildford: Not necessarily. The reality we all have to face is that there are plenty of Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: Does the Minister agree arms in the world and these arms can be obtained that the civil unrest referred to in the Question was from anywhere, in various forms. We control very started in Tunisia by an unemployed guy being refused carefully our exports of arms, in a very tightly regulated a licence to sell vegetables and that the people in way, and we do not believe that merely creating substantial countries with unrest at the moment are more concerned unemployment here and damaging our well regulated with their civil and economic rights than with the industry, paving the way for less regulation and possibly Israel-Palestine issue? worse and more dangerous arms in many countries in the Middle East, would help one iota towards peace Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is right and stability in the area. to say that the effects of civil unrest are rippling through the entire region, both north Africa and the Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Does the Minister Levant, and even touching the Gulf states. These are agree that in fact we have two sets of circumstances very important matters, but I do not think that he here? On the one hand, there is the sustained and would disagree that one problem is the continuous absolute refusal of Israel to stop building settlements poison, as it were, of the Israeli-Palestine dispute and in the Occupied Territories—no matter who asks, that, if that could be settled, we would at least be on including the United States—and that makes the the way forward. possibility of a viable and contiguous Palestinian state less likely. Combined with that, as a result of the Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Does the Minister agree unrest we have the possibility, no matter what the root that the greatest risk to the Government of Israel causes are, of elections that may well lead to the would be a vacuum in the peace process at a time of establishment of Governments in the Arab countries great ferment in its Arab neighbours, who may be with a mandate against the Middle East peace process pushed by such a vacuum in a more radical direction, based on a two-state solution. That toxic combination which would make the search for peace more difficult? makes the issue very urgent now. Does the Minister Does he not feel that the best contribution that could believe that there is a very short window of opportunity be made in the near future is for either the quartet or for the resumption of these negotiations? the United States to put some ideas on the table and Lord Howell of Guildford: I agree strongly with the seek to engage both parties in a discussion of those noble Baroness’s analysis. The dangers are very great ideas? from all these developments. We have said several times in these exchanges that it does not take a genius Lord Howell of Guildford: That is exactly what we to see that the Israeli Government are much more would like to do and are seeking to do. The noble worried by the uncertainty, and therefore pushing Lord, with his experience, has just reaffirmed my them toward negotiation is going to be tougher still. earlier point that, although this is what we must now However, there is a little window for us to push to try do, the pressures are pressing the opposite way inside to achieve something, and we are going to do so very Israel, where there is increasing nervousness at the hard indeed. uncertainty and the difficulties afflicting their neighbours. We are dealing with a tricky situation, in which the Health: Care and Compassion? persuasion we need to get Israel and Palestine negotiating Question on a new and sensible basis is working one way—and we are pushing—but Israeli fears are working the 11.31 am other way. Asked By Lord Touhig To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Lord Clinton-Davis: Will the noble Lord accept they plan to take in response to the Parliamentary from me that his reply to the Question is 100 per cent and Health Service Ombudsman’s report Care and right, and I support it? What is rather more strange is Compassion?. that I support the noble Lord, Lord Wright. Is it not imperative that the Government should come to a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, conclusion about the issue he raised forthwith? We Department of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, the should not simply accept that the situation should go department has asked the Care Quality Commission on indefinitely. to conduct a series of unannounced inspections on NHS trusts, and will report on its findings. The department Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is clearly wrote to NHS chairs on 15 February to raise awareness in a supportive mood this morning and I am grateful of this report and to ask them to assure themselves to him for that. He is right to say that recognition of that their own organisations were up to standard. the Palestinian representation here is an important Similarly, the chief nursing officer also raised the issue. We will seek to come to an early conclusion and report findings at her February meeting with strategic I take note of his concern that we should do so. health authority directors of nursing. 1177 Health: Care and Compassion?[3 MARCH 2011] Road Vehicles Regulations 2011 1178

Lord Touhig: I thank the Minister for his Answer, Earl Howe: My Lords, I will look and see where we which is very helpful. We in this country are blessed are on a formal reply to the commission’s report. with a National Health Service staffed by very dedicated Again, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for her and committed people but, as this report highlights, work in leading the nursing profession. She is absolutely there are instances of neglect and a lack of care for the right that strong nursing leadership at every level, elderly. The best way to prevent cases like the 10 listed from ward to board, is essential to ensure high-quality here happening again is to ensure that everyone in the care. Ward managers make a critical difference, matrons National Health Service, if possible, reads the report. provide strong leadership on wards and all nurses, I It is available online at www.ombudsman.org.uk, but believe, must aspire to continuous quality improvement. can the Government find ways to help to distribute the That is why we expect directors of nursing to review report so that everyone working in the health service this report with a view to addressing any areas of can read it? improvement in their own organisations.

Earl Howe: My Lords, I understand and applaud Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, we warmly the noble Lord’s reason for making that suggestion. I welcome this report and the actions that the Government will overlook the issue of cost, but I am not sure that are going to take upon it. However, how will a fully his idea would necessarily have the desired impact. competitive market in healthcare ensure that older What is needed here is for local leaders to take charge. people are looked after properly, with care and That is why the chief executive wrote to every chairman compassion? and chairwoman in the NHS asking them to share the Earl Howe: Perhaps I may elaborate on an answer I report with every member of their board, so that they gave earlier about our reform proposals, which have at can examine the services in their particular organisation their heart the strengthening of accountability. There and assure themselves that these situations are not will be accountability: for outcomes, through the outcomes happening on their watch. Nevertheless, I am certain framework, to ensure that NHS providers focus first that boards around the country will wish to take heed and foremost on quality; through GP commissioning, of the noble Lord’s suggestion. which will bring commissioning closer to patients and ensure that it is clinically informed; and in strengthened Baroness Knight of Collingtree: Does the Minister local accountability, not only through the health and recall the number of legitimate complaints that were well-being boards in local authorities but via the public, made during the period of office of the previous through Health Watch, which will ensure that the Government about bad treatment within the health NHS focuses on what is important to patients and service? Nothing was done with urgency.Will he recognise citizens. that when there are legitimate complaints, delay causes deaths and great suffering? When there are such complaints, they should be dealt with speedily and Charities Bill [HL] deeply. First Reading 11.37 am Earl Howe: My Lords, I am sure the whole House will recognise the contribution that my noble friend A Bill to consolidate the Charities Act 1993 and other has made to raising awareness of these very troubling enactments which relate to charities. issues, and I pay tribute to her. She is right, which is The Bill was introduced by Baroness Verma, read a first why our proposals for the NHS place a great deal of time and ordered to be printed. emphasis on strengthening accountability at every link in the chain, so that the complaints that she has referred to are dealt with speedily and someone is held Business of the House accountable for what has happened. Timing of Debates 11.37 am Baroness Emerton: My Lords, will the Minister please say whether it is the Government’s intention to Moved By Lord Strathclyde respond to the previous Prime Minister’s commission That the debate on the motion in the name of on nursing, which reported in March 2010? There Baroness Gould of Potternewton set down for today were 21 commissioners, and I declare an interest as shall be limited to four and a half hours and that in one of them. The report made 20 recommendations, the name of Lord Clark of Windermere to one 17 of which relate directly to the ombudsman’s report hour. and, if implemented, would go some way to curing some of the types of incidents that were reported. Motion agreed. There is a great need on the part of both the employers and the employees, and it was good to hear the Minister Social Security (Contributions) say that a letter has gone to the employers. Would it be (Amendment No.2) Regulations 2011 possible to have an answer to the commission so that we could see the implementation of some of these Social Security (Contributions) (Re-rating) recommendations? I am ashamed to be named a nurse when such dreadful care and lack of supervision have Order 2011 been identified. We have a responsibility here. I ask the Minister to look at the supervision of untrained staff Road Vehicles (Powers to Stop) and the regulation of assistant nurses. Regulations 2011 1179 Local Authorities Regulations 2011[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1180

Local Authorities (Mayoral Elections) International Women’s Day (England and Wales) (Amendment) Debate Regulations 2011 11.39 am Marine Licensing (Licence Application Moved by Baroness Gould of Potternewton Appeals) Regulations 2011 To call attention to the global and domestic challenges for women in the centenary year of International Women’s Day; and to move for papers. Marine Licensing (Notices Appeals) Regulations 2011 Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, it gives me great pleasure once again to open the debate to commemorate International Women’s Day to look at the global and domestic challenges that women face in Waste (England and Wales) Regulations this centenary year. I thank all who are taking part. 2011 The number of speakers today shows that there is an understanding that these debates are about issues as they affect women and, as a consequence, society as a Greater Manchester Combined Authority whole. I look forward, as I am sure we all do, to the six Order 2011 maiden speakers who will contribute to this debate. Over the next week, International Women’s Day will Motions to Refer to Grand Committee be celebrated by women around the world, portraying the stories of ordinary women struggling for equality, 11.38 am for their rights and for the ability to participate fully in society—politically, socially and economically. The Moved By Lord Strathclyde day also gives us the opportunity to celebrate the That the draft orders and regulations be referred advances made and to identify the achievements that to a Grand Committee. still have to be made. Empowering women and girls is the most effective way of enabling women to participate fully in society, Motions agreed. and has been the motivation behind the many declarations made and conventions and conferences held, which have provided a series of mechanisms and instruments Postal Services Bill to promote and embed gender equality. In 1979, the Committed to a Committee of the Whole House adoption by the United Nations of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women—CEDAW—committed all member states who 11.38 am signed up to it, including the UK, to end discrimination Moved By Baroness Wilcox in all their actions and in their legal and benefit systems, and to ensure equality and equal opportunities between women and men. That should be the blueprint Motion agreed. for all our actions. The world conference of 1995 in Beijing, after much controversy and opposition, led to the important Postal Services Bill declaration that women’s rights are human rights. The Order of Consideration Motion aims of the millennium development goals are to reduce poverty, to promote gender equality, universal primary education and a reduction in maternal mortality 11.38 am in developing countries. However, at the current rate Moved By Baroness Wilcox of progress, none of these will be achieved. In spite of all the commitments made and conventions That it be an instruction to the Committee of the signed up to by the nations of the world, discrimination Whole House to which the Postal Services Bill has remains entrenched and pervasive. Too many women been committed that they consider the bill in the continue to be subject to violence, exploitation and following order: intimidation, to be the innocent victims of war, to Clauses 1 to 8, Schedule 1, Clauses 9 and 10, have no control over their own fertility and health and Schedule 2, Clauses 11 to 37, Schedule 3, Clauses 38 to have no income or assets. They continue to represent to 41, Schedule 4, Clauses 42 to 50, Schedule 5, the majority of the world’s poor, earning just 10 per Clause 51, Schedule 6, Clause 52, Schedule 7, Clause 53, cent of the world’s income, even though they work Schedule 8, Clauses 54 to 64, Schedule 9, Clauses 65 two-thirds of the world’s working hours. to 71, Schedules 10 and 11, Clauses 72 to 89, In sub-Saharan Africa, women represent between Schedule 12, Clauses 90 and 91. 70 and 75 per cent of the agricultural workforce but own just 1 per cent of the land, and still too many Motion agreed. Governments deny women the right even to own land. 1181 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1182

Poverty and the hidden costs of education deny many with just 19 per cent of the world’s parliamentary seats girls the possibility of going to school, creating a being held by women. Women’s engagement in pubic situation in which in Nigeria, for instance, 4 million decision-making at local, national and international girls have no access to primary education. Nor should levels is a matter of democratic justice and a means of we forget that globally nearly 20 per cent of women ensuring better government accountability to women die from HIV/AIDS and nearly 15 per cent from poor and more focus on issues of concern to women. If we maternal services, and large numbers of women do accept that that is so, it is certainly not acceptable that not have access to contraception. It is all too easy to the UK is ranked 52 in the international league tables put to the back of our minds that one woman dies on women’s access to political power, with a meagre every minute from complications resulting from pregnancy 22 per cent women’s representation. and childbirth, having been denied good or any maternity Lack of women’s representation and participation care: 350,000 deaths each year. Maternal health is a has been attributed to several factors and constraints. human right and no woman should die through neglect Some of the constraints include political structures when giving birth. that inhibit women’s participation and some that relate DfID’s new framework for improving reproductive, to family and other responsibilities. To understand the maternal and newborn health in the developing world reasons fully we have to be prepared to look at the is to be welcomed. We await the details and the level of traditional arrangements of political parties and expenditure so that these aspirations can be put into government structures and, if necessary, remove obstacles practice. All these deaths are preventable with the to women’s participation. We have to think beyond provision of good maternity services and the right for mere numbers and be much more forceful in women to have control of their own fertility. demonstrating the impact of women’s contribution. I still find too many people asking why we should be Human rights and equality are two sides of the concerned and why there should be more women in same coin and should underpin all decisions and decision-making and leadership positions. However, actions taken by Governments and public bodies, for women to be able to influence decisions that affect promoting the dignity and value of each individual their lives and those of their families, they have to be and groups of people. However, too many Governments directly involved. I say with the greatest respect to our around the world condone or ignore the extent of male politicians that I doubt whether we would have women’s poverty, the extent of violence against women, seen the great advances that have been made in the and the extent of the subjugation. strategies tackling violence against women if pressure That is a very gloomy picture, but there is hope on had not been exerted by female politicians. the horizon. After nearly four years of negotiations, Just as the time was ripe for a review of women on the UN member states voted unanimously last July to boards, perhaps the time is right for a detailed analysis establish for the first time a mechanism for effectively of why women are in such a minority across the whole monitoring all agencies and country programmes as field of decision-making, focusing particularly on women’s they affect women and girls: UN Women. They will place in the political arena. Gender equality is a have the task of ensuring that Governments across the crucial component of social progress and economic world’s developed and developing nations meet their growth. Nevertheless, women in the UK continue to commitments to CEDAW,to delivering gender equality be disadvantaged across a range of economic activity. goals, and to all aspects of women’s rights. They experience a full-time pay gap of 15.5 per cent, More than two-thirds of activists working on women’s 64 per cent of low-paid workers are women and women’s projects across the world say that ending violence average personal pensions are only 62 per cent of the against women must be the top priority for the new average for men. What is disturbing is that there seems agency, and that it must look to seeing a full to be little prospect of improvement—rather, the opposite. implementation of Resolution 1325 and to reducing As a result of the deficit reduction measures, women the number of women who are the victims of war; face a triple jeopardy—cuts in jobs, cuts in services 75 per cent of rapists in the DRC are armed fighters. and benefits, and filling the gaps where services will no To succeed, however, this new agency needs the political longer reach. Women are without doubt the biggest and financial support of the international community. casualties of the cuts. Women’s jobs will be more So far, that support is limited. UN Women is already heavily hit, with 300,000 jobs likely to go in the public suffering from a $300 million shortfall in funding. We sector and 50,000 jobs in the NHS, the majority of have to make sure that this is not yet another example which will be women’s jobs. We are already seeing big of a commitment that is forgotten before the ink on cuts in the support paid to mothers—including cuts in the paper is dry. childcare, with the expected closure of 250 Sure Start The previous UK Government played a big part in centres, which will affect 60,000 families; and cuts in establishing the new agency. I fully accept that this social care services for children, the disabled and the Government are committed to its future, which leads elderly. These all make it harder for women to combine me to ask whether the UK is a leading donor and, if work and family life. At a time when they are most so, can the Minister indicate the level of funding that needed, many support services such as refuges, domestic we are contributing? A key aspect of the agency’s violence projects and women-only organisations are at work will be to encourage countries to develop strategies risk of closure or have already had to close down to increase the number of women involved in public because of decisions that are being taken that appear and political life. Political decision-making remains to misinterpret statutory equality duties. These largely the territory of men. It is one of the most services are vital to help women flee violence and striking examples of inequality between men and women, rebuild their lives. 1183 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1184

[BARONESS GOULD OF POTTERNEWTON] only, is most superbly represented in this House by a The determination of women’s economic independence past president, the noble Baroness, Lady Perry. My has always been an important criterion in establishing memory goes back to a time when Lucy Cavendish women’s equality. That will be seriously undermined was far too small to be recognised as a college. It was a by the cuts in tax credits, child benefit, housing benefit, perfect example of the courage and insight of a small the restriction of the Sure Start maternity grant to the but brave group of women whose efforts resulted in first child only and the proposed introduction of a the full recognition of the need for such a place. universal benefit to be paid to the main earner, who in Today, Lucy Cavendish College stands proudly as part the majority of cases will almost certainly be the man of Cambridge University. in the household. It is more than 30 years since women In this world of politics and committees, one is able successfully campaigned for the concept of moving to observe, and occasionally venture to suggest, a new benefits from the wallet to the purse, with child benefit or different idea—but not very often to succeed. For replacing the then family allowance, for the first time instance, I still vehemently wish that brothels could, in giving money to a mother in her own right. I would this country as in others, be legalised. If this ever hate to see that principle disappear, and I hope that happened, it would be very important for health reasons, consideration can be given to how we can make sure and could aid crime prevention. I also very much hate that that does not happen. burkas, but that is for another day. Parliament is a We have to have a vision of a society in which showcase of successful women. I think of the pleasure women and men enjoy equality at work, at home and it gives me to listen to the noble Baroness, Lady in public. We need a vision of a society in which Butler-Sloss, and at the same time, my sometime bosses, gender equality is based on the belief that a just and the noble Baronesses, Lady Chalker and Lady democratic society results from men and women having Bottomley—and, after all, even if she is younger than the same opportunities, rights and obligations in all me, I am the baby of the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher. areas of life. In spite of the advancements that still Perhaps I may end by paying humble tribute to the have to be made, over the past century the world has many, many women who never hit the headlines but for many women has been transformed, and gains are who through their efforts broaden our horizons every continuing to be made. That reminded me of a quote day. from a great male champion of women’s empowerment, Nelson Mandela, who said: 11.56 am “When the water starts boiling it is foolish to turn off the heat”. Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, perhaps I We all have a responsibility to make sure that the may say what a privilege it is to follow my noble friend water continues to boil. Lady Gould and the noble Baroness, the great Lady Trumpington. Much has changed in the past hundred 11.51 pm years. The fact that so many women can participate and are participating in this debate in our House is a Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, as usual, the matter of note and of huge celebration. It is also noble Baroness, Lady Gould, has hit the nail right on significant, if we just look around the Chamber, that the head with her eloquence and sense of occasion. those women come from different cultures, religions In recent years, and at my age, I can certainly report and ethnicities, and all add their voices to the richness on and register the many global and domestic changes that we now have in this House. We are going to be that have taken place in the lives of women, not only delighted to hear seven maiden speeches today, all in this country but in many parts of the world. As I from women of real distinction who have each made a watch my television, I can only wish that women’s significant contribution to our country and our lives. influence could have been used to prevent the terrible Much has changed, but much of that change has events resulting in so much innocent suffering for so started with the creation of a legal framework which many people today. enables the rights that people have to be enforced in I was indeed lucky in 1979 to have represented this such a way that they can be honoured in the countries country as a member of the United Nations Commission where they are promulgated. To do that, your Lordships on the Status of Women. At that time, the commission will not be surprised to hear me say, we need lawyers. was nearly half way through the United Nations Decade We need good female lawyers. As the House will know, for Women. I do not believe that the commission I had the privilege of being the first woman to be achieved a great deal, but it was an invaluable experience appointed as Attorney-General in the 700-year history for us as we gained a woman friend in almost every of that great office. With my honourable friend Vera country in the world. Some of those friendships were Baird, we became the first all-female law officers team, with me for life. and I have the privilege of being in the first all-female Many are the tales I could tell about the mid-decade shadow law officers team, with my honourable friend conference held in Copenhagen. The British delegation, Catherine McKinnell. I would like to tell your Lordships under the leadership of Lady Young, was incredibly that that was because of our own innate and unique lucky to benefit from our wonderful British ambassador, ability, but I fear that that is not the case. Dame Anne Warburton. Some time after, Dame Anne It is very easy to forget that, until 1919, women tied in with my Cambridge life when she became the were not allowed to practise law. I would like to splendid president of Lucy Cavendish College. I am remind your Lordships that 1922 was the first year very proud of the fact that I am an honorary fellow of when women started to practise, and in 1913 the Law Lucy Cavendish. That college, for mature women students Society refused to allow four women to be admitted. 1185 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1186

When the case went before the Court of Appeal in a attempted suicide. More than half of imprisoned women very famous—I should say infamous—case of Bebb have suffered domestic violence, and one in three has v The Law Society, the court upheld the Law Society’s experienced sexual abuse. decision to refuse admission. I would invite the House It would be far preferable for most of these highly to remember the name of Mr Justice Joyce, because he vulnerable women to receive supervision in the community found that women were not persons within the meaning combined with help to address the problems connected of the Solicitors Act 1843. Therefore, it was not until with their offending. That was a strong message of the 1919, when the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act review by the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, of vulnerable was passed, that women could practise law. Indeed, women in the criminal justice system. Her report Maud Crofts, who was involved in that famous Court states: of Appeal case, having studied, attended lectures, sat exams, and graduated with first-class honours from “Community solutions for non-violent women offenders should be the norm”. Girton College, Cambridge, was refused a degree by the University of Cambridge because of her gender. It also recommends: Perhaps it is not surprising that it has taken us 700 years “There must be a strong consistent message right from the top to have the first, somewhat limited Attorney-General of government, with full reasons given, in support of its stated who happens to be a woman. policy that prison is not the right place for women offenders who pose no risk to the public”. Since that time much has changed. Sixty per cent of those now being admitted to the Law Society as solicitors One of the results of that report was the establishment are women, but 23 per cent of the partners are not. of a network of women’s community projects with Women have made a huge contribution to the creation funding from the Ministry of Justice. It is important of law. The House will have heard me speak on so that these projects are run by voluntary organisations many occasions on the issue of domestic violence, to in partnership with the probation service. They operate which one in four women in our country is subjected. as one-stop-shop centres providing a range of services Two or three women die every day as a result. We and have proved highly effective in keeping women out made changes by working together across the House. of custody by providing the support and help that Noble Lords will know that a 63 per cent reduction in they need to avoid reoffending. More than 2,000 women domestic violence has been possible between 2003 and have been referred to the projects since they were 2010, and that we have reduced the economic cost by established. £7.5 billion. Women and women’s voices have helped I understand that 11th hour discussions are taking to make that difference. place on the possibility of some continuing central I know that I have only limited time, but I want government funding, but these projects are still unclear to say to the House that without women raising about whether any further central funding will be their voices with the great men that we see in this available to them after the end of this month. I would Chamber and elsewhere, change will not be possible. be grateful if the Minister could make an early statement The framework needs to change, because there is on the amount of central government funding being much for us yet to do. made available for the continuation of these essential projects, the duration of that funding and the number 12.01 pm of women’s centres that will receive it. Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, The second aspect of my contribution relates to Lady Gould of Potternewton, for this debate. She will women and equality. It is here that I refer to the one not be surprised if I start with my perennial gripe. As I body that has been assigned with this task, the Equality look around me, I see no woman on the Bishops’ and Human Rights Commission—the EHRC. Key Benches. I trust that that anomaly will be resolved issues need tackling if we are to achieve true equality before long. in Britain. The time is short, so let me pose some key I shall concentrate on two areas. The first is about questions. women in prison. At any one time there are around What plans does the EHRC have to take enforcement 4,200 women in prison, representing around 5 per cent action following startling revelations of extreme pay of the total prison population. Most are not serious gaps, including a gap in annual basic pay between offenders. In 2009, 61 per cent of imprisoned women women and men of 39 per cent? This gender pay gap received sentences of six months or less; 37 per cent rises to 47 per cent for annual total earnings when had no previous convictions, which is more than double performance-related pay, bonuses and overtime are the figure for male prisoners; 63 per cent are in prison taken into account. Secondly, women in some of the for non-violent offences; and around a quarter of the UK’s leading finance companies receive around 80 per women imprisoned each year are jailed for shoplifting. cent less in performance-related pay than male colleagues. Women in prison typically have a wide range of We must ask why. Thirdly, what action is the EHRC serious welfare problems. They are five times more taking following the Speaker’s Conference on political likely to have a mental health problem than women in representation, particularly the lack of ethnic minority the general population, with 78 per cent showing signs women in local and national politics? What action is of psychological disturbance when they enter prison. the EHRC taking with regard to broadcasters following That compares with a figure of 15 per cent for the the successful age discrimination case taken by Miriam general population. Seventy-five per cent have used O’Reilly against the BBC? Does the EHRC plan to illegal drugs in the six months before entering prison, look again at the fact that the equality duties do not and 58 per cent have used drugs every day during apply to employees of the BBC and Channel 4? Could those six months. Thirty-seven per cent have previously we be told if the EHRC has been constantly blocked 1187 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1188

[LORD DHOLAKIA] The ILO has a vital strategic role in protecting seafarers’ from taking legal action? The EHRC is at the heart of rights and in getting Governments and the shipping the equality debate and we need some clear answers to industry to adopt the policies of equality and protection these important questions. from abuse and exploitation that we all take for granted. The ILO is an organisation that the shipping industry 12.06 pm cannot ignore. I hope that the Government will ensure Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: My Lords, I very that its vital role in working towards equality for much welcome this debate and I thank the noble women seafarers is protected. For, while the experience Baroness, Lady Gould, for securing it. It allows me an of Captain Olsen demonstrates amazing progress, the opportunity to depart from my usual area of expertise global and domestic challenges facing women seafarers and experience and indulge my passion for gender remain substantial. equality and human rights. Yes, I was a passionate campaigner for women’s liberation, long before I was 12.12 pm a freedom fighter for disabled people! The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells: My Lords, I I want to highlight the work of women seafarers welcome the debate today and congratulate the noble and the global domestic challenges that they face. The Baroness on her instigation of the celebration. I am all lives of seafarers are not easy. They work, often far too conscious as I read the list of firsts for women in from home, in a harsh and often hostile environment. public life that although the first woman priest to be For most of the time they are out of sight and out of ordained was listed, neither the first woman dean nor mind from the rest of us. We benefit from the fact that archdeacon was mentioned—an indication no doubt more than 90 percent of world trade still depends on of the present glass ceiling, which has already been their skills and expertise. If we think about seafarers at referred to, that prevents a woman from sitting on all, it is almost only to curse their incompetence following these Benches. I trust that the General Synod of 2012 an oil spill or when our ferry is delayed. will rectify that matter. Seafarers are almost unique in that they must live The UN Secretary-General has said that, and work together within the confined space of a ship, “equality for women and girls is not only a basic human right, it is often for months at a time. Imagine arriving for today’s a social and economic imperative”. debate and staying in this House for the next six I have had the privilege over many years of working months and not seeing your families or friends until alongside and witnessing the struggle for human rights September. Goodness me—it puts overnight sittings among women and by women. The first reconciliation into perspective! group that I attended along the so-called Peace Wall in For women, living and working on board ship Belfast was the initiative of women. In Bangalore in requires dedication, tolerance and self-belief. Often India a street community that proudly declared itself they will be the only female on board. Despite these “Now a People” in the local language was providing obstacles, there are some remarkable women seafarers. basic healthcare, education opportunities and welfare I pay tribute to and celebrate Captain Inger Klein through its partnership with the seminary. Those are Olsen, who was recently appointed master of the two small yet significant and hopeful signs that have cruise liner “Queen Victoria”. She is the first female brought further recognition of women’s rights and a captain in the 170-year history of Cunard. I hope that measure of social and economic well-being. her example will serve as a role model to other women However, significant challenges still remain. During seafarers. Unfortunately, for every tale of such success, a number of visits to Zimbabwe, I frequently met there is one of sadness. Last year, 19 year-old cadet women and girls engaged in the struggle to maintain Akhona Geveza was lost overboard from the container dignity, autonomy over their own lives and a hope for ship “Safmarine Kariba”. Her body was recovered a better future. One group of sixth-form young women four hours after she had reported being raped by a shared with me their dreams. “I want to be a doctor”, ship’s officer. Although this was a UK-registered ship, said one. “I want to be a pilot”, said another. “I want not a single Brit was serving on board and there has to build the planes she flies”, said a third. “Bishop”, been no investigation by the authorities here. The the head teacher said to me later that morning, “Most seafarers’ union, Nautilus International, has called for of these girls will be dead before they are 30. If AIDS, a full investigation into the death of Cadet Geveza. domestic violence or hunger does not get them, they Surely that is the least that we should do in response to have a one in 10 chance of surviving into their 40s”. the tragic death of this young woman. This is a profoundly serious issue. Sometimes it is Many women are employed on cruise ships. While illustrated only by the gift of filmmakers and other there are good employers, tales of bullying and sexual artists. I draw your Lordships attention to a remarkable harassment continue to taint the reputation of the film, “Buddha Collapsed out of Shame”, in which the cruise industry. Women from developing countries producer tells the story of a young girl living in the often secure employment only after making payments ruins of the Buddhas blown up in Afghanistan some to dubious agencies. These women are exploited even years ago. The little girl wants to go to school. She before they have set foot on board. needs a notebook and a pencil. To get it, she must sell Such problems can be effectively tackled only at an eggs. She is jostled in the market and drops four of the intergovernmental level. Seafarers, especially women six eggs and has enough to purchase only the notebook. seafarers, need protection and support from their Determined not to be denied her schooling, she steals Governments. Therefore, I was concerned by DfID’s her mother’s forbidden lipstick to use as a marker. On announcement on Tuesday that it will stop voluntary her way home from her first—indeed, only—day at core funding to the International Labour Organisation. school, the local boys of her age accost her, discover 1189 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1190 her lipstick, accuse her in adult language of being a boys could not get me out for three days so, in the whore and place her in a pit to stone her. The genius of middle of June, they decided that it was the football the director lies in his capacity to keep the viewer season. guessing whether that is some ghastly contemporary The challenges were out there for me at an early Lord of the Flies game or whether it is for real. Of age, and the challenges are out there nowadays for course, it is for real—all too real for all too many most young girls who want to get involved. As Peter women and girls. Children mimic adults. Evans, Midlands regional development manager for Governments rightly take credit for progress in baseball, softball and modern pentathlon—what a peacemaking and human rights, and the development mixture—has written, it may seem simplistic, but if of education and health programmes, but rarely, if you provide an activity for girls with good-quality ever, is progress made without previous grassroots coaching and proper clothing that combines a cool activity on behalf of—and, frequently, by—those most image and a fun environment, they will thrive and affected. Grassroots or community activity is the basis commit themselves wholeheartedly. It is sport that will of genuine change. Welcome though the Government’s help to tackle issues such as obesity, self-esteem and intention to target the poorest of nations is, which will prejudice. result in saving more than 50,000 women’s lives in pregnancy and childbirth, it is regrettable that aid to The image and profile of females in sport could be Burundi, Niger and Lesotho has been withdrawn, helped enormously if more women were represented while that to India, which is now a burgeoning economy, on the boards of sports governing bodies—providing, has not. of course, they merit such an appointment and are not merely the statutory women. The 2010 Commission It would be tragic if work in our country to secure on the Future of Women’s Sport, ably chaired by the the well-being of women and girls facing domestic noble Baroness, Lady Tanni Grey-Thompson, found violence, discrimination due to single parenthood or that only one in five members of national governing the removal of educational opportunity were cut without bodies are women. One quarter of sport governing due regard for the consequences, particularly in this bodies have no women on the board at all yet, ironically, highly significant centenary year for women. almost half the staff of 44 out of 47 Sport England-funded NGBs are female. 12.17 pm The business case is unarguable. The presence of Baroness Heyhoe Flint: My Lords, I am trembling suitably qualified women will provide a balance of at the batting crease, waiting to face the Opposition’s skills and perspective. The England and Wales Cricket fast bowling, but am relieved that the traditions of this Board, if I dare mention cricket on a day like today honourable House mean that interruptions are not after what happened to the English team in Bangalore considered cricket. yesterday—I hope there are some happy Irish people With great pride, I have moved from Lord’s NW8 in the House today—is a shining example of an NGB to the Lords SW1, and I thank everyone for an incredibly which offers recognition, given that two out of 10 of warm welcome—from the Doorkeepers to the highest the board’s non-executive members are women. officeholders among your Lordships. I also thank very The MCC at Lord’s—the home of cricket—which much my two calming supporters, my noble friends is a private members club with a public responsibility Lord Coe and the Minister, Lady Verma. I know the for cricket, admitted women as members in 1998 after Doorkeepers by the football teams that they support. I a mere 211 years. I was there at Lord’s to hear of the must declare an interest as a former director and now victorious result. One very sad, senior MCC member a vice-president of Wolverhampton Wanderers Football saw me, looked me straight in the eyes and said, “My Club. Sadly, no Doorkeeper is a Wolves fan, but on the life will never be the same”. I certainly would not Floor of this Chamber, I can reveal two Wolves supporters: advocate a quota system. I do not believe legislation is the Lord Speaker—who perhaps is in the changing the route: no breaking of the glass ceiling—more a room now—and my very kind mentor, my noble friend level playing field. Lady Perry, both of whom, like me, are former pupils of Wolverhampton Girls’ High School, where cricket Greater media coverage for women in sport will was our main summer team sport. What a very strong assist development and improve sponsorship opportunities. batting line-up, you might say. When I was an active journalist—last century—I tried My father was director of physical education for to get a better profile for the England women’s cricket Wolverhampton and my mother taught gymnastics at team and, as a result of that, because he read about us local schools. With that sporting background, I again in the Daily Telegraph, Sir Jack Hayward sponsored declare an interest. Not only do I understand the the England women’s cricket team for five years and LBW law in cricket, I actually understand the offside developed the first women’s world cup cricket, two rule in football. years before the men’s. Our debate today presents an opportunity to emphasise I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould of the challenges that women have to face in gaining Potternewton, for giving me the opportunity to speak acceptance and recognition in the world of sport: in to this motion. It may only be by persistent persuasion participation, funding, media coverage and representation that women will overcome the problems that I have at board level. My challenges in sport began at the age highlighted, but in challenging economic times we of seven with garden cricket with my brother and his need companies, charities and philanthropists to invest friends. I was not allowed to bat for three years—“Girls in the potential of women in sport who, after all, are don’t play cricket”. When I eventually got to bat, the 50 per cent of their market. 1191 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1192

12.25 pm in Europe are trafficked for sexual exploitation. Some European estimates suggest that between 1990 and Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, it is with 1998 more than a massive 253,000 women and girls great pleasure and pride that I follow the noble Baroness, were trafficked for the sex industry in the then 12 European Lady Heyhoe Flint, in the batting order. I congratulate Union countries. Sexual exploitation is not the only her on her sparkling maiden speech and welcome her exploitation. Domestic servitude is also a reason for to your Lordships’ House. trafficking. She and I met years ago on a cricket pitch—Lancashire The joint project between the European Women’s v Warwickshire—and I have admired her sporting Lobby and the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women achievements for years. She is involved not only in recommends that the focus should be not only on the international cricket but in international hockey, and victims of trafficking but on the responsibility of she is a keen golfer and squash player. She is vice-president those who buy women into prostitution and on taking of Wolverhampton Wanderers Football Club, a board specific action on women’s human rights. They call for member of the England and Wales Cricket Board—one Governments to address the political will to create of the first two women—and was elected to the MCC measures against trafficking and sexual exploitation general committee in 2004, the first women in the and to implement effective sanctions, so I am eager to 217 years of the club’s history. She has been and still is know what we in the UK propose. Trafficking of involved with many charities, and was an outstanding helpless victims should be treated as a serious criminal president of “The Lady Taverners”, which raises money offence. Criminal gangs must be sought and punished. for disabled children to do sport and in which I declare I ask the Minister how far the Government accept this an interest as a member of that organisation. She was and what will be done. the first female TV presenter. She has won the Guild of Professional Toastmasters award for after-dinner 12.29 pm speaking. She has trodden for years where women have Baroness Brinton: My Lords, I rise to speak for the not been accepted. How appropriate for this debate today. first time in some trepidation and in awe of the excellence Let me turn to her cricket. She captained England of the debate and the many unwritten conventions by when women played for the first time at Lord’s in which this House regulates itself. The welcome I have 1976. At the Oval that year she scored 179 against the received from noble Lords and from the attendants, Australians. She has 30 test centuries. Of the great doorkeepers, officers and staff of this House has been cricketers elevated to your Lordship’s House, their generous and supportive, and I thank those who helped averages were as follow: Lord Hawke seven, Lord my family on the day of my introduction. I particularly Constantine 19, Lord Harris 29, Lord Sheppard 37, want to thank everyone involved in the briefing and Lord Cowdrey 44 and the noble Baroness 46. Resolute induction process for new Peers. It makes this new girl in defence, aggressive as a bat, she is a remarkable feel that any ignorance is hers alone. woman and a great friend who will bring a great deal I have a particular interest in education through my of humour and common sense to your Lordship’s time as a Cambridgeshire county councillor with the House and will be a real asset in so many ways. education portfolio, then as the skills champion and Turning to the global and domestic challenges for deputy chair at the East of England Development women, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Gould Agency, and my 20 years working in higher education, on yet again leading this debate. I will focus on some including as senior bursar of Lucy Cavendish College of those women who are truly challenged—those who under the presidency of my noble friend Lady Perry, have no voice to speak for themselves. Women suffer who was referred to by my noble friend Lady in wars they have not created, where they suffer violence Trumpington. and rape. Women are trafficked both in this country This debate honours the centenary of International and abroad and are rendered powerless and degraded. Women’s Day, and I start by marking the contribution Women suffer torture and genital mutilation. It is of my cousin, the late Lady Stocks of Kensington and trafficked women I shall focus on today, and I shall Chelsea. I remember from the early 1960s this doughty— ask the Minister to update the House on government and, to be frank, to an 8 year-old, scary—lady whose policy on trafficking and on what progress has been debates at Sunday lunch were always impressive. At an made on the signing of the European directive. early age, she showed me that women could do anything Let me start with a case study which typifies the they set their mind to. Unusually for a primary school horror and shame of trafficking. Take the young woman girl, I understood the importance of Cross-Benchers from Romania trafficked at the age of 17. She was and the role of Life Peers. given a fake passport and promised a job cleaning in I was later shocked to discover—children often fail hotels. She was forced into prostitution, sometimes to understand that their elders were once young—that being obliged to have sex with men 12 times a day. The this eminent Peer of the realm had started her own relationships were often violent. Her earnings were career as a rebel. One hundred years ago she was a kept by the trafficking ring. She was arrested for suffragette marching to Parliament to demand that prostitution, and then taken into custody where she women should be given the vote. She dedicated her life was safe. Eventually the trafficking team was arrested to the education of women and she showed me, in the and given the longest sentence for trafficking in UK words of John Stuart Mill, that women must, history. Sadly, some women are never found once they “stir up the zeal of women themselves”. are trafficked. It is reckoned that up to one in seven sex I suspect that she also helped to create the rebel in me, workers in Europe may have been forced into it through occasionally to the amusement of my much-loved late trafficking and that 84 per cent of victims of trafficking father, Tim Brinton, formerly of another place. 1193 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1194

Globally, women still bear a disproportionate burden It was wonderful to hear her passion and warmth in of the world’s poverty. A UNIFEM report last year promoting the rights of disabled women, which is also said: close to my heart. I am sure I speak for the whole “Statistics indicate that women are more likely than men to be House when I say that we look forward to the noble poor and at risk of hunger because of the systematic discrimination Baroness’s future contributions. they face in education, health care, employment and … control of assets” I raise the particular issue of disabled women’s participation in society, especially in sport and physical I would like to focus on a smaller group of women. activity. Through research from the Women’s Sport Those with disability are known to be further stigmatised and Fitness Foundation, for which I chair its commission and experience even greater poverty, less education on the future of women’s sport, we know that the and worse health than their non-disabled peers. I will drop-out rate for non-disabled women in sport is give just one example. In rural Tanzania, as many as around the crucial age of 16. If we could only encourage one in 10 pregnant women develop obstetric fistula British girls to take part in just two hours of physical after an extended labour. Tragically, 90 per cent of activity every week, they would be less likely to be these women lose their babies and are then confined to teenage mothers or involved in abusive relationships home with the debilitating results—uncontrolled leaks and would be more likely to stay in education. Who and resulting health and hygiene problems. Women would not want that for any young woman? find themselves outcasts in their own community.Obstetric fistula can be treated by a simple, free hospital operation However, we know that it is considerably more and rehabilitation in Tanzania, but it was difficult for difficult for disabled women to achieve inclusion in the health professionals to identify women who needed sport. A recent report from the Office for National help because they were invisible. Without treatment, Statistics looked at social participation across a range the women became disabled and unable to take any of themes, including a European barometer of public part in their society, all for the want of transport to opinion. The biggest barrier for anyone wanting to hospital. participate in physical activity is time. How many of As a result of lateral thinking and using modern us in your Lordships’ House today could say that? technology, Comprehensive Community Based The second biggest barrier to participation is being Rehabilitation Tanzania, an NGO that works with disabled. I am very lucky in that I can say that in my CBM UK, the disability charity of which I am a life I have rarely experienced discrimination due to trustee, developed a scheme called M-PESA with the being a woman, but if discrimination were a top phone company Vodacom. Regional representatives trumps game, disability would receive nearly maximum locate women with obstetric fistula and alert the NGO, points. When I was pregnant with my daughter, I was which transfers money via a text message on a mobile told several times by a variety of people, including a phone to pay for a woman’s bus fare to the hospital. nurse and a doctor, that people like me should not This really is a case of “for the want of a nail the have children. Kingdom was lost”, or, to turn it positive for this I have in my work with the Laureus Sport for Good project in Tanzania, “for the want of a bus fare, a Foundation, of which I am trustee, seen this even woman’s life is returned to her, and her family”. Projects more starkly around the world. The charity uses sport such this, funded either by private or public funding, as a tool for social change across a range of countries lie at the heart of the best in world development, and I and projects. In the past couple of years I have been am encouraged that maternal health is one of the key fortunate to visit projects in India, Rwanda, Israel and objectives of this week’s DfID review. However, I hope Palestine, and have seen the issues that face disabled that the guidance is not drawn so tightly that low-cost women internationally. projects like this, which are truly life changing, are On a recent visit to the image project in Rajasthan, excluded in future because a bus fare might not count I spoke to girls who had polio. It is a great worry that as maternal health. girls aged 14 and 15 are living with this condition. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould of They had been abandoned, ignored and abused just Potternewton, for instigating this debate, and I look because they were disabled. They were living in a forward to many more. I am humbled that I am able to school that doubled as a children’s home for many of play a small part as a servant of this House and look them. So many girls were living there that they were forward to contributing in future. sleeping 20 to a five-bedded room. They were sleeping on the floors in the corridors and the teachers had to 12.34 pm sleep on the roof because there was nowhere else for Baroness Grey-Thompson: My Lords, it gives me them. The teachers experienced discrimination because great pleasure to speak in today’s debate on a very they were working with disabled children and they important subject, but first I am delighted to pay found it difficult to live in their own communities tribute to and to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady because of the work that they were trying to do. Brinton, to your Lordships’ House, and I thank her Sport and physical activity played a crucial role in for her wonderful contribution today. Her experience helping all these young women adapt to their impairment, through her work in the media, business, education to feel valued and to get access to education. It also and the public sector will be a great asset to this gave them an opportunity to contribute to local society. House. I am also delighted to learn that we share a It gave them skills that enabled them to have a job and love of football—but in my case it is Middlesbrough, to be able to change the way in which the local so I say that in the loosest sense of the word—and environment thought about them. Because where they swimming, but perhaps sadly not her love of cooking. lived was so inaccessible and they had few wheelchairs, 1195 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1196

[BARONESS GREY-THOMPSON] under the law, but effectively in some cases they make they needed to be introduced to physical activity so up their mind in advance about the prospect of employing that they could be strong enough to live their everyday the person sitting in front of them. lives. One of the most dramatic and upsetting things I say that, when being interviewed, women should that I have ever seen was the girls having to crawl be forthcoming by declaring their status regarding along the corridors between their bedrooms, study children and childcare so as to pre-empt any “unaskable” rooms and the kitchen because they did not have questions in the mind of the interviewer, and then to enough wheelchairs. They had to share the wheelchairs focus on the most important thing: explaining what and take turns to use them. When visitors came they skills they can bring to the company and why they were brought out in stages because they could not all should be employed. I, for one, would be very impressed come to meet me together. For someone who takes the with a person who settled the matter at the outset, use of a wheelchair completely and utterly for granted, telling me how they are going to organise their life in that was a devastating experience. order to do their job, but more importantly, how they When I spoke to the girls, their aspirations were are going to get on with the job in hand and what they simple. They want to be treated like non-disabled are going to bring to the party. Such people would women in their local community. The dream of full jump up in my estimation. inclusion and equality, and to have the same rights as As I have already said, I have had the pleasure of a man, was a step too far. When I asked one of the employing many women in executive positions over girls whether they believed that they could achieve the years. The managing director of my French operation that, they looked at me and said, “No, not in my had three children—in fact, she had one of her children lifetime”. Whenever the battle for true inclusion for while she was employed by me. She controlled that women perhaps gives the impression that we are close market much better than I could ever have done. The to the finish line, this is a stark reminder that there is same could be said for the lady who ran my Hong still a long way to go. Today, I ask what steps we can Kong branch, a job she did so well that I seconded her take to ensure that disabled women receive more support, to the UK to head up my manufacturing operations whether through international aid or other sources, to worldwide. Additionally, those noble Lords who are ensure that they have a chance to succeed. I know that familiar with the television programme with which I we can all do more to make this better. am associated will know that for the last two years running, a woman has won, one of whom is now on 12.40 pm maternity leave. She has done a very good job and, of Lord Sugar: My Lords, I am grateful to have the course, the position is open for her when she returns. opportunity to join the debate, and my reasoning will Perhaps I may also add that my assistant on the possibly become evident later. Over the past 40 years, I programme, Karren Brady—the noble Baroness, Lady have had the good fortune to employ a number of Heyhoe Flint, will appreciate this—has spent the whole women in senior executive positions, and I have to say of her working life in football at the highest level. She that I have found women in business to be very focused, was the youngest ever woman to be a public company determined and ambitious. Indeed, in top management director and has openly managed her life around her positions, they seem to place little importance on children without ever feeling the need to keep it a building ego and simply get on with the job in hand in secret. I could not finish without mentioning Margaret a very efficient manner. Mountford, of course—my noble friend Lady Scotland will appreciate this—who, trust me, is a person. About two years ago, I was asked to give an interview to two lady journalists from the Daily Telegraph. The Sometimes the law can be foolish and interview was supposed to be about entrepreneurs, counterproductive. I urge women going after jobs to enterprise, young people and all that stuff, but it came be bold and upfront during the interview process. Let to an abrupt halt when they brought up the subject of me leave noble Lords with this final thought: while I women in work, pregnancy and childcare regulations. have been talking and referring to the “interviewer”, I have found that a bit of sensitivity arises when the person most probably imprinted in noble Lords’ someone like me speaks out on these matters. It tends minds is a man. This should not be assumed. I have to to spark off in some people a kind of knee-jerk say that the scepticism—the charade that I spoke of reaction and they do not seem to hear or want to hear earlier—is played out equally by both genders. what I am saying. Regrettably, what was reported in that newspaper did not reflect my sentiments, so I am 12.45 pm grateful to my noble friend Lady Gould for tabling Baroness Jenkin of Kennington: My Lords, I start this debate as I will be able to air the point I wish to my maiden speech today by congratulating the noble make—and this time I have Hansard to fall back on Baroness, Lady Gould, on once again securing this for the record. important debate. I am conscious that there are many My point, very simply, is that I believe that employment eminent pioneers both in this Chamber and outside regulations for women, whereby the prospective employer who have led the way by campaigning on these important is not able to inquire about the interviewee’s status issues. In my own party, for example, I mention my regarding children, childcare, or indeed their intention noble friend Lady Miller of Hendon who introduced of becoming a parent are counterproductive. And I last year’s debate on the same subject. My noble think that some women may agree with me on this. As friends Lady Morris of Bolton, Lady Ritchie of Brompton things stand, regardless of the current laws and regulations, and the Minister have all been active for many years in interviewers are forced to play out some kind of championing the cause of women, and particularly psychological charade. They know their obligations women in Parliament. I would also like to thank the 1197 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1198 staff of your Lordships’ House. It is well known that it to do. At this point, I should make it very clear that I is not the Government, the Opposition or the Whips am against positive discrimination; I want only the who can tell you what is happening. If you really want very best to represent us in the House of Commons. to know what is going on, you have to ask a Doorkeeper. However, we still have to be vigilant to ensure that I most enthusiastically thank my supporters. My there is no discrimination against women candidates. noble friend Lady Shephard of Northwold was in In last year’s debate, my noble friend Lady Scott of 1992 appointed the first Minister with special responsibility Needham Market rightly drew attention to the fact for women’s issues; she has encouraged me and many that fewer women apply for the job than men. That other women. It is also, of course, a very special has certainly always been the case, but we now have a pleasure to thank my noble kinsman Lord Jenkin of greater critical mass and we have momentum. With so Roding for his support and advice; the most pertinent, many more role models on both sides of both Houses, which I hope to follow today, is to speak “loudly, I believe that more women will come forward to be slowly and clearly”. considered. It is crucial that these women, whatever However, I have two other noble kinsmen who are their party allegiance, are supported and mentored. both relevant to today’s debate. My great-grandfather, They need to know exactly what they are in for, and Sir Willoughby Dickinson, Liberal MP for St Pancras this is an area in which women in this House can also North, was an early and prominent supporter of women’s play a part. suffrage. He was incensed that his sister, an eminent Finally, on a more personal note, I end by paying doctor, did not have the vote. He first introduced a tribute to a group still mainly made up of women, women’s suffrage Bill in the other place in 1907. In a even in 2011. This is a group that does not receive speech, he said: universal sympathy. They are largely unsung, but never “I regard this question of the women’s franchise as part of the invisible. They are always relied upon, but rarely movement of civilisation”.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/3/12; recognised; a group of people who put up with much, col. 720.] but without fuss. They do not merely keep the political In the early part of the last century, women’s suffrage show on the road, in fact, if it was not for them, it was not a universally popular cause, and his support would never get out of the garage. I know all this for it did his career in the Liberal Party no good. On because I have been a member of this group—the 10 January 1918, he wrote about the events in this spouse of a Member of Parliament—for the past place on that day: 20 years. As we celebrate the 100th International Women’s “The House of Lords has passed the women’s suffrage clauses Day, I salute this band of few heroes but many more by 134 to 69, so this job of mine is finished”. heroines. Although the struggle for women’s votes was finally won, the battle for women MPs had only just begun. 12.50 pm My great-grandfather later became a Labour Peer, Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I thank the noble Lord Dickinson of Painswick, and with great pride he Baroness, Lady Gould, for this debate today. It is my watched his daughter, my grandmother, take her seat good fortune to be able to congratulate Anne, the in 1937 as the MP for Hemel Hempstead. That same noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, on her moving maiden grandmother, Joan Davidson, who later sat in this speech. She has done much to help women in politics House as Baroness Northchurch of Chiswick, was the and she is going to make a great contribution to this only Conservative woman MP returned to Parliament House. You might wonder why I am so convinced of after the 1945 election. this. When I entered the House 30 years ago, her Although I stood as a candidate in 1987, my own grandmother, Lady Davidson—she was always known active involvement with the issue of women in Parliament as Lady Davidson, and to many of us as Mimi, began in 2005. After the general election of that year, although her title was Baroness Northchurch—was an a mere 9 per cent of the Parliamentary Conservative active Member. She told me one day at tea in the Party were women. More and more Conservatives Peers’ Dining Room that, when she became a Peer, were at last starting to realise that this was not just an which was quite a long time earlier, the Dining Room issue of representation, it was one of credibility—the was full of small tables. She said that Members needed credibility not just of the Conservative Party but of to be able to talk to one another, and it is because of politics as a whole. Together with a small group, her intervention that the Long Table exists today. I am I co-founded Women2Win, a pressure group of convinced that this practice of Members taking the Conservatives to get more women elected to Parliament. next seat, irrespective of party, provides a unique Women2Win is still active and support is growing. means of communication and discussion and makes a Today, 22 per cent of MPs are women, a greater significant contribution to the work that we do. I had percentage than ever before, but still stuck towards the always imagined that it was an age-old tradition, but bottom of the international league table. I am especially no, it was all due to Lady Davidson. proud, of course, of the 49 Conservative women MPs The noble Baroness, Lady Jenkin, has special historic elected last May, up from 17 in the previous Parliament. connections with this House: three of her grandparents I must point out that none of this would even have were Peers, and her Uncle Andrew, Lord Davidson, started without the support of men, men like Brooks was a Deputy Chief Whip. Other well known and Newmark and David Cameron. But it was my own much loved kinsmen were her first cousin Richard, husband who pointed out something crucial right at Lord Acton, and Davina, Baroness Darcy de Knayth. the beginning. He said that women never make much Of course we all know her kinsman the noble Lord, progress until we succeed in persuading men that Lord Jenkin of Roding, as a valued Member of the things have to change. Well, we still have some persuading House. 1199 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1200

[BARONESS GARDNER OF PARKES] press as “the most unlikely Peer”, and a more sensational Women2win is well known and successful and carries newspaper headed the piece: “Fair Dinkum Dame on the idea that Lesley Abdela started 30 years ago Edna’s made it!”. with the 300 Group, for which I was one of the It is only thanks to your Lordships passing the shadow people before it was set up. There was a cruise Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, on to Denmark on which ever so many women came to the last day of the last Parliament, that I am still in learn how they could become MPs—and I hope that this place, as faulty legislation in 2006 failed to confirm some of them made it. Women2win is taking a very the right of members of the Commonwealth to sit in progressive view on this. Each generation of women the House of Lords. I am most grateful for the support benefits from the efforts of those before them and from all sides of the House, and I particularly thank faces the new challenges that continue to arise. the noble Lord, Lord Bach, who I see is in his place. I intend to remind some of the Members of the We have had many remarkable women Members, House of a few of the achievements of women here, so many of whom have made interesting and unique and also of the support that these women have given contributions. Dora Gaitskell always sat with a hat on, and continue to give to others. Women could not and no matter how often people suggested that she become Members of this House until after the Life take it off, she would just pull it tight around her head. Peerages Act 1958. Harold Macmillan created four Lady Castle refused to wear her tricorn hat for her women peers in that year: Lady Elliot, aunt of the introduction, and of course no one wears a hat for noble Lord, Lord Crathorne; Lady Ravensdale and introduction now. Lady Swanborough, whom I never knew; and Lady There have been women Leaders of the House of Wootton, who is always listed as the first woman life Lords—first Lady Young, and four more since: the Peer. She was probably the first to take her seat. She noble Baronesses, Lady Jay, Lady Amos and Lady and Lady Elliot were still active Members of the Ashton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, who is House when I was introduced, and very forceful characters in the Chamber today. The first woman Chief Whip, they were too. for Labour, was Lady Llewelyn-Davies, and since then Other notable people included Lady Hornsby-Smith, we have had the noble Baronesses, Lady Royall and who wrote to every newspaper that referred to Peeresses Lady Anelay. I know that there is no time to say more and blew their heads off, saying that we were women now. However, we have set a great example. We continue Peers; and Lady Vickers—1974, of the blue rinse—who to work for, and hope to benefit, the women of the told us that trousers were only acceptable on Fridays, next generation. We should all bear that in mind and as that was considered a day when you could go to the continue this work. country. Lady Wootton sat regularly on the Woolsack until about the age of 90 and died in 1988. The present 12.58 pm longest-serving Member of this House is the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, who took his seat in 1945. Baroness King of Bow: My Lords, I have often Women, of course, were not allowed then. The longest- gazed down from the Public Gallery in some wonderment serving woman Peer, since 1970, is the noble Baroness, at this golden Chamber, and so it is with much humility, Lady Masham. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, gratitude and a little surprise that I rise from these red was given her peerage in 1972, and the noble Baroness, Benches to speak. It is customary to thank the staff of Lady Falkender, in 1974. the House and I genuinely want to do this, as in all the years that I have worked here they have always assisted Some women Peers have faced great personal tragedies, me and, more remarkably still, never once arrested such as the assassination of their husbands in the me—long may their indulgence continue. cases of the noble Baroness, Lady Sharples, Lady Airey of Abingdon and Lady Ewart-Biggs; and recently, I also thank my two supporters: my noble friend there was the very tragic killing of the husband of the Lady Kinnock and my noble friend Lord Alli, of noble Baroness, Lady Newlove. Norbury. Their support over many years has been so extraordinary to me on a personal level that it has In 1981, I was in a list of 15 with four other women; provoked a reaction in me that borders on the devotional, Lady Ewart-Biggs, Lady Lane-Fox and the noble so I will just leave it at that. Baroness, Lady Platt of Writtle, were the other three. Another noble friend whom I would like to mention Lady Lane-Fox has a special respiratory unit named is the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton. His is after her at St Thomas’ Hospital. She had not been a story of rags to riches. From a poor working class expected to live from the age of five, but she was one family in the north of England, the noble Lord left of the first Peers to use an electric buggy in the House. school at 14, joined the Royal Marines at 17 and was I think that she may have had polio, and she had wounded in the preparations for D-day. His membership severe breathing problems. She made a great contribution of the Co-operative Party remarkably propelled him to the Lords and society. to become Prime Minister at the age of 21, pipping Beryl, the noble Baroness, Lady Platt, was an Pitt The Youngerby three years. He was Prime Minister aeronautical engineer, and hugely successful in helping of the Tyneside YouthParliament, before being demoted women into science and engineering. She was also to be MP for Enfield. When I was studying A-level chairman of the Equal Opportunities Commission. I politics, I discovered that the noble Lord, Lord Graham, have been assured that I can have an extra second or was my mum’s cousin. Given that I could not get into two because I was congratulating a maiden speaker. the Parliament and my class wanted to come and visit, The 1981 list was published in April and was the first I nagged him to show us around the place, and I have political list for many years. I was described in the been hanging around ever since. 1201 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1202

It is 14 years since I gave a maiden speech in Thirdly, the most effective way to improve outcomes Parliament and, not wishing to sound like a scratched in our system is to implement an old wives’ tale and record, I had genuinely hoped to break new ground listen to what our grandmothers said. They said that and move beyond the limited territory of equalities prevention is better than cure. This was the theme of issues. No such luck. Although this debate has been my wonderfully ill-fated London mayoral campaign characterised by genuinely enlightened contributions last year, the failure of which, thankfully, allowed me on both sides, I have to be honest and say that we have to wash up on these noble red Benches. I am ashamed been having these debates for so long, I sometimes to say that, at the time when I was harping on about find them claustrophobic, as though I was trapped early intervention, I had not read what I think is one inside a box—a small box. A small box with a tick on of the most important contributions that any two it. But I should not complain. I am great at ticking Back-Benchers have made—they are men, but never boxes. I tick loads of them. My dad is black, my mum mind; I shall give them credit. Graham Allen and Iain is Jewish, my grandparents were Scottish, Irish, Hungarian, Duncan Smith’s report on early intervention is genuinely African-American and native American Indian—there groundbreaking and I commend it to everyone. are more ticks on my census form than on my mum’s Given the time limitations, I have discarded half my German shepherd dog. I have tick-borne disease, but speech, but I want to tell your Lordships one last all these ticks make me think one thing—tick-tock. anecdote about a social worker that I heard of during the mayoral campaign last summer. The social worker At the current rate of progress, it will take 200 years was talking about Baby P, the 17 month-old boy to achieve an equal number of women in this Parliament. whose 50 injuries included a broken back, broken ribs, Come on, boys and girls, I know we don’t go in for his teeth kicked out, the tips of his fingers sliced off, revolution, but 200 years? This timeframe is, frankly, his nails ripped out and so forth. The social worker lazy. What happened to our work ethic? How long do noted that our entire country was united in an outpouring we have to wait? How many speeches do we have to of grief and rage at the suffering of that poor soul. make? How many clauses do we have to debate? How different their responses would be, said the social Although the previous Labour Government did what worker, had Baby P survived. If Baby P had survived all Labour Governments have done and introduced his horrific childhood of constant abuse, all the research groundbreaking equalities legislation for women, ethnic indicates that, as an adult, unless he received intensive minorities, disabled people, gay people, older people, and expensive help, he would almost certainly have religious groups—basically, everyone—I am still shocked become a sex abuser, wife beater and paedophile. The at how much ground is left to break. whole country would have been united in an outpouring Maybe that is because I grew up in a country where of rage against this monster and demanded that he be the head of state and the Prime Minister were both hanged by the neck. We need to reflect on the madness women and it was an article of faith to me that, in this inherent not just in this system’s responses but in country, unlike so much of the world, women no society’s responses to the ills around us. longer faced an uphill struggle. The facts presented in I conclude by mentioning the fantastic EQUALS this debate prove that I was a misguided young woman. campaign, spearheaded by Annie Lennox—and why is I thought that promoting equality was a matter of us it that we politicians have to rely on pop stars so often? tying up a few loose ends, not actually questioning the That campaign pointed out that there is no doubt that whole system. But since I have spent most of my adult women’s rights have come a long way since 1911, but life working inside a parliamentary rabbit hole, I realise women still only hold 19 per cent of the world’s that we must question the system. I have concluded parliamentary seats, only 9 per cent of the world’s that Britain is a wonderful country; and I prefer leaders are women, women perform 66 per cent of the British politics to virtually all others. But having worked world’s work, produce over 50 per cent of the world’s within the system all my life, I can say with clear-eyed food and yet only earn 10 per cent of the world’s income conviction that our system needs radical repair. Our and own less than 1 per cent of the world’s property. system is needlessly failing not just women—although This House is renowned as a place of reflection. I they face the brunt of the problems at the moment—but thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for securing failing children and men as well. this debate, and on the 100th anniversary of International Women’s Day, I hope that we can stop ticking boxes, Repair is required in three principal areas. First, start to think outside the box and secure gender equality recognise that the equalities debate is for everyone, not for all. just those of us with tick-borne disease. For example, all men in Britain today who desperately want to see 1.05 pm their children more than they do, would benefit from greater gender equality at work and around childcare Baroness Cox: My Lords, it gives me great pleasure responsibilities. If the average man understood what to be the first of your noble Lordships to congratulate gender equality meant for him, the average man would the noble Baroness, Lady King, very warmly on her be a feminist. superb, engaging, entertaining, splendid maiden speech. Knowing a little about her illustrious career before Secondly, a gender analysis is the most effective way joining your Lordships’ House, I knew that we could to reduce the harshest inequality of all: the inequality expect a speech reflecting the passionate commitment between those who are nurtured from birth, on the of the noble Baroness to fundamental values and one hand, and those who are effectively abandoned, passionate advocacy for justice, equality, poverty reduction whose lives are thrown away before they reach the age and human rights. These passions were reflected, inter of three. alia, in her membership of the International Development 1203 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1204

[BARONESS COX] example, SWAN published Licence to Rape,awell Select Committee in another place from 1997 to 2001 researched document that exposed the SPDC’s policy and her membership of many aid and advocacy of the use of rape as a weapon of war. SWAN has organisations, including Oxfam, Amnesty International established several programmes to provide help for and UNICEF. women, including crisis support and maternal and It is said that it was at Haverstock comprehensive child health programmes. We visited some of its school that Oona King first showed political ambition, programmes, which we are privileged to support, and telling her careers teacher that she wanted to become we are always deeply impressed by the dedication, Prime Minister. Apparently, she was advised to become courage and professionalism of the very committed a librarian instead. I am sure we are all delighted that women who give their lives—and indeed often risk their she stuck to her guns and pursued a political career. lives—to help women suffering in so many ways from Her maiden speech in another place was acclaimed as, the inhuman policies of the Burmese military junta. “a truly first-class maiden speech”.—[Official Report, Commons, I congratulate the Secretary of State for International 1/7/97; col. 173.] Development on the recent reviews. In so doing, I I am sure the House will agree that the noble Baroness express appreciation of DfID’s funding for SWAN has achieved a repeat performance, treating us to and the retention of Burma as a country that DfID another truly first-class maiden speech here today. We will continue to support. Will DfID also continue to greatly look forward to benefiting from her passion, support cross-border aid for displaced people suffering commitment and experience on many further occasions. inside Burma? The previous reassurance on this issue gave great comfort to the thousands of people suffering I now join all other noble Lords in congratulating inside that tragic land, and such help is still greatly the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, on this very timely needed as SPDC offensives continue and even more debate, providing an opportunity to highlight some of civilians will be driven from their villages to become the challenges confronting women today, as well as exiles in their own land or to flee into in foreign lands. some of the initiatives, especially those undertaken by women, to address them. I will focus on challenges This example of the challenges for women in Burma confronting women in just one part of the world, today is just one illustration of the perennial and women who are largely off the radar screen of continuing problems for many women in so many international awareness; those who live in the regions conflict zones in today’s world. The inspirational work in Burma which I visited last week, the Shan, Karen of SWAN is just one example of the many responses and Karenni states. Their challenges and their suffering by women for women that it is appropriate to acknowledge are replicated in many other parts of the world, especially and celebrate in this centenary year of International areas affected by war and the aftermath of conflict. Women’s Day. The ethnic nationals of Burma, including the Shan, Karen, Karenni, Chin, Rohingya and Kachin peoples, comprise 40 per cent of the total population. Last 1.12 pm week colleagues from Humanitarian Aid Relief Trust Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, I feel and I met the Shan leadership and were informed that doubly fortunate to be able to make my maiden speech the situation for the Shan people remains dire, as also in this debate to mark 100 years of International for their Karen and Karenni neighbours. Military Women’s Day, first because it was introduced by my offensives by the brutal ruling military junta, the mentor, my noble friend Lady Gould, and secondly Orwellian-named State Peace and Development Council, because I have been proud to call myself a feminist for continue unabated and have forced hundreds of thousands some 40 of those 100 years. I was also fortunate to of civilians to flee from their homes into hiding or have as my supporters two formidable women, my exile. Women are especially vulnerable, particularly noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and the those who are pregnant or caring for young children noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. I am grateful to them, or the elderly, as they suffer the acute deprivations of to noble Lords from all sides of the House and to all life in hiding in the jungle. Unable to build shelters or the staff for their warm welcome and helpfulness. light fires for fear of being seen by SPDC soldiers, I doubt whether many noble Lords have heard of they are constantly wet in the rainy season and suffer Burtersett. It is a small village in beautiful Wensleydale from severe cold at night. They live in constant fear of where my grandparents lived during my childhood capture and abuse. A 17-year-old girl from Central and which, as a keen walker, I still visit regularly. In Shan State told us: taking this title, I wanted to acknowledge the county “SPDC military troops would often come to my village. One of my birth and my mother’s side of my family. day they caught my father, beat him and forced him to work for However, today I also want to remember my father them as a porter. My dad never came home again. My mother who I know, as a refugee from Nazi Germany, would was pregnant. We were forced to leave the village and my mum have been particularly proud to see me here. In only lived for five days, then she died. I was on my own”. remembering him, it saddens and angers me how we I have recorded literally hundreds of such tragic stories, as a society often treat many of today’s seekers of but in this centenary year of International Women’s asylum. Female asylum seekers are a group of women Day, it is important also to appreciate responses by who are particularly challenged in both a global and a women with initiatives to alleviate suffering and to domestic context. The Joint Committee on Human remedy root causes. Rights suggested that the treatment of asylum seekers One example of such a response is the excellent often, organisation SWAN, the Shan Women’s Action Network, “falls below the … common law of humanity and of international which undertakes advocacy and provides aid. For human rights”. 1205 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1206

The committee also expressed particular concern able to do so—but who do not have access to power. with regard to pregnant women. The national equality As one such woman, involved with ATD Fourth World, panel, of which I was a member, drew attention last said: year to, “We are powerless … not taken seriously, our voice not “significant levels of hardship and even destitution “. respected. I want to be heard, respected, my experience valued, not derided. Our voice can raise awareness of poverty and break among asylum seekers, revealed by small studies but the barriers down”. hidden by larger income surveys. 1.17 pm I want to use the rest of my speech to draw attention to another example of hidden poverty—that Baroness Scott of Needham Market: My Lords, of women within families. Although domestically once again the whole House owes a debt of gratitude and globally women tend to bear the main brunt of to the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for securing poverty, this is often overlooked in our very proper today’s debate and for giving us the opportunity for a concern with child poverty. Yet female and child cornucopia of maiden speeches from six quite remarkable poverty are closely linked, not least because women women. still typically manage poverty and, in trying to protect It is a real privilege to follow the noble Baroness, their children from its full impact, they act as poverty’s Lady Lister of Burtersett, in what I am sure the House shock-absorbers. will agree was a thoughtful and forceful maiden speech, I hope that I will not alarm noble Lords unduly a combination that is often difficult achieve. The noble when I say that I was once nearly thrown out of your Baroness came to your Lordships’ House in January. Lordships’ House when sitting below the Bar. I was It is interesting that, like many of us, she has taken a working for the Child Poverty Action Group, an title that reflects her pride in her origins. She comes to organisation that I am now proud to serve as honorary us as emeritus professor of social policy at Loughborough president. The occasion was the consideration of a University after a career as a campaigner and an Social Security Act, and I squealed with joy when it academic, which strikes me as a dangerous combination was announced that the Government were withdrawing for the government Front Bench. their proposal to pay family credit through the pay The noble Baroness’s links for many years with the packet. The reason why we campaigned so strongly on Child Poverty Action Group, including eight years as that issue, with support from women of all political director, have continued and she is now the honorary parties and none, was that the evidence indicated that, president. She is currently involved in two studies on if money for children was transferred from the woman’s poverty and social exclusion. Her whole career as an purse to the man’s wallet, it would be less likely to be academic and her writings have focused very much on spent on the children. Moreover, such a transfer would the areas of poverty, the social security system, citizenship deprive mothers of an important independent source and social justice. It is a body of work that I know she of income over which they had independent control. has brought to bear in a political context, and she has Unfortunately, this is a battle that we seem to have to contributed much to Labour Party thinking in these fight periodically, as successive Governments overlook areas over the years. Her work on feminism and equality the importance of how income is shared within families. is renowned and has made today a singularly appropriate It is an issue that we face yet again with the proposed day for her to make her maiden speech. I am sure that universal credit, as my noble friend Lady Gould has she will continue to make many valuable contributions warned. to your Lordships’ House over the coming years. I wish to say a few words about one particular A number of research studies show that low-income aspect of recent events in the Middle East, which have women are more likely to go without basics than made us all hold our breath from time to time. We men living in the same households. Just the other have seen many striking images involving women and week, I helped to launch the publication of a study girls taking their place, marching and protesting side of black and minority ethnic maternal poverty for by side with the men. In these countries where the Oxfam and the Angelou Centre in Newcastle. The public sphere is so often dominated by men, this could study reveals considerable deprivation and, in a few be a real game-changer. There is a Facebook page cases, what the researcher calls “economic violence”, called “Women of Egypt”, which has shown that is it in which the woman has so little access to money that not only not the preserve of men but not the preserve her freedom is severely curtailed. Other research of middle-class women either. The photographs show illuminates how the stress created by poverty can a wonderful variety: grandmothers and young girls, undermine mothers’ ability to provide the kind of veiled women and those with bare heads. On International parenting that they want to. This can get overlooked Women’s Day, it is appropriate to reflect on how the in policy debates, which sometimes give the impression role of women in the creation of these, we hope, new of blaming poor parents. democracies in the Middle East and north Africa can I have had the privilege, as both an academic and be developed and enhanced. This is no small challenge campaigner, to be able to draw attention to the reality in countries where women’s representation in national of women’s poverty over the years. A colleague in the Parliaments is less than 10 per cent and where formal department of social sciences at Loughborough University participation in the workforce, even now, is less than reminded me of our responsibility to speak truth to 30 per cent. There is institutionalised disadvantage power. I hope that I will fulfil that responsibility on and cultural prejudice. We cannot take it for granted behalf of women who are in fact better placed to that gender equality is an inevitable consequence of a speak that truth—and, with support, are more than move to a more democratic state. 1207 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1208

[BARONESS SCOTT OF NEEDHAM MARKET] and 40 years since the Equal Pay Act and the Sex As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland Discrimination Act, the percentage of women on the of Asthal, said, we need a legal underpinning for what boards of the FTSE 100 companies remains as low as is happening. One key component is for these changing 12.5 per cent. If no further decisive action is taken, it countries to make special provision in their new has been estimated that it will take another 70 years to constitutions to enshrine the rights of women. In achieve gender balance on those boards. Although Tunisia, women are present on each of the commissions some of us might have preferred compulsory targets which have been established to oversee the transition. right now, the report by the noble Lord, Lord Davies By contrast, in Egypt, there are no women on the of Abersoch, requiring these companies to set and constitutional committee. That is in a country where publish 25 per cent targets for the percentage of women the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights reported in to be on their boards by 2015 clearly makes economic 2008 that 83 per cent of women have been subjected to as well as equal opportunity sense as a next step. some form of sexual harassment, so no one need think Today, there are more women than men enrolled in that the disappearance of one man in a regime will universities in this country, and importantly, women change the culture overnight. We need them to get the in their 20s out-earn their male peers even if, as we all constitution right as part of that building block. know—and we all know the reasons why—women still It is very instructive to look at South Africa, where face a powerful glass ceiling as they move up that there were equal numbers of men and women on the ladder. Yet, as a recent McKinsey report has found, constitutional committee and where women are companies with more women on their boards vastly acknowledged to have played a key role in dismantling outperform their rivals, with a 42 per cent higher the apartheid regime, particularly in ensuring that the return on sales and a 66 per cent higher return on consultative and inclusive processes involved women. invested capital. At least the Davies report contains a That meant that sufficient focus was given to human clear message that legislation will indeed follow if this security—to access to food and water, health, education, voluntary approach fails, so let us congratulate the and personal safety. noble Lord, Lord Davies, and keep a close eye on what There is much that we can do. I have been interested the Government intend to do about it. to read about the work of Lesley Abdela, whom the Education on the same basis for male and female noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, mentioned children is crucial to maximise the contribution women previously in another context. Lesley Abdela has worked make for their own, their children’s and their country’s in post-conflict regions across the world. When she benefit. In the UK, that has been the situation—with was working in Iraq, she helped to develop an approach some uneven areas, of course—for many years. At the on phrases that can be used in constitutions to guarantee global level, particularly in developing countries, sadly the rights of women. Those can be translated quickly the picture is very different, yet we all know it is in our into Egyptian Arabic and into other languages and interests to invest in girls and women’s education there can play an important part. I hope that the Foreign too. Certainly, we can all be proud of the wide-ranging and Commonwealth Office is on top of this and international aid work done in many areas of social following it through, and there is of course a role for need by organisations such as Save the Children, UNICEF the EU and the UN. and PLAN International. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy has a Particularly important for its focus on girls’ education good track record in this regard. Five years ago, it is the quite excellent report by PLAN International’s helped to set up the Network of Arab Liberals, with “Because I am a girl” programme, which highlights HQs in Cairo and Casablanca. Several of my colleagues the role that girls and women can play in economic have made visits financed by the programme and growth and the missed opportunities of failing to Network of Arab Liberals members have been invited invest in their futures. PLAN’s report showed that to party conferences. I know that these links which countries with the lowest number of girls in education have been established between Liberal International lie at the bottom of the human development tables. and the Arab world are just one example of a whole Further, it found that an extra year of education network which already exists and which can be mobilised increases a girl’s income by 10 to 20 per cent and is a to move this region into the new phase of its history. significant step on the road to breaking the cycle of We must all use the connections that we have to ensure poverty. With education, girls have a chance of a dialogue, with women talking to women and young better life for themselves and for their children and people talking to young people. We have an opportunity one which will lead to a more prosperous community, now to develop and nurture these new-born democratic a better workplace and a wealthier nation. structures. We must not let it slip by. I am glad to say, too, that DfID’s approach under the previous Government to this whole area has been 1.23 pm encouraging and I gather it continues to be so under Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I, too, join in the coalition. Your Lordships will have seen the two thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for her major reviews from the department, published this ability in securing this debate, which gives us this week. In his covering letter, Andrew Mitchell, the welcome opportunity to comment—alas, all too coalition’s International Development Secretary, commits briefly—on the global and domestic challenges women the Government to securing schooling for 11 million still face today. children in developing countries over the next four On the UK front, I shall comment only on women years. I hope that the Minister will confirm that this is on boards. It really is shaming that although it is a firm commitment because, if achieved, DfID will almost 100 years since women had the right to vote certainly deserve our congratulations. 1209 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1210

If that phrase “Education, education, education”, woman. In many African countries, women are which we remember, is an acknowledged No. 1 priority increasingly involved in positions of influence, particularly for future generations of both sexes one other, equally in the broadcast media. Let us celebrate that. vital, issue must be tackled for women and girls if they However, there is still a great deal more to do. are to achieve equality and human rights. The UN While the average percentage of women journalists Security Council’s Resolution 1325, aimed at fighting worldwide is estimated at 38 per cent, it is as low as gender-based violence and conflict, among other issues, 6 per cent in places such as Togo or Sri Lanka—despite has apparently been much discussed this past week at the fact that there have been many women editors in the meeting in New York of the UN Commission on the latter—and only just above 20 per cent in much of the Status of Women. Although some progress is sub-Saharan Africa. In some countries, being a woman recognised, only 24 out of 195 countries worldwide journalist brings real peril. In February of this year, have adopted a national action plan for women, peace Rwandan editor Agnes Nkusi was sentenced to 17 years and security. To put it bluntly, until it is no longer in prison, and her reporter Saidath Mukakibibi to acceptable anywhere in the world for an army, whether seven, while their newspaper Your Voice was closed for a nation’s official army or any rebel military group, to six months, for criticising the president. These two regard rape and violence against women and children courageous women are just the most recent examples as one of the spoils—indeed, the rewards—of war, we of women journalists who have spoken out against shall not achieve Resolution 1325 or all the objectives brutal regimes and, undoubtedly because of their sex, that we are fighting for. suffered unduly and disproportionately harsh reprisals in an attempt to discredit them. 1.29 pm No wonder that in so many developing countries Lord Black of Brentwood: My Lords, we have this with traditional societies journalism is seen as too afternoon heard many eloquent and passionate risky a career for young women, many of whom are contributions about the challenges facing women at actively discouraged by their families from taking up home and across the globe. It is a privilege to be able the trade. To counteract this, some forward-thinking to join in. This is an issue to which I am delighted the media organisations, such as the Deccan Herald Group Commonwealth will also be turning in a few weeks, in India and Wijeya Newspapers Ltd in Sri Lanka, are when the theme for this year’s Commonwealth Day on increasingly implementing measures to alleviate these 14 March is “Women as agents of change”. That title cultural concerns, including organising transport to is spot on, particularly in the developing countries and from offices, providing chaperones for women that I shall talk about. Women are so often drivers of reporters interviewing men, and providing security in societal change that investing in their advancement in war zones. education, healthcare and equal opportunities is one On top of that, there needs to be substantial ongoing vital key to the acceleration of economic and cultural investment, in financial as well as cultural terms, in progress in the developing world. encouraging women into the media, ensuring that they The other agent of change is, of course, the free are adequately trained, and enabling them to engage press. Here I declare an interest as chairman of the with their peers on issues not just of general concern Commonwealth Press Union Media Trust and a but specifically those that impact on the health, welfare director of the Telegraph Media Group. The noble and prosperity of women. As we mark International Baroness, Lady Gould, in introducing this debate, was Women’s Day, let us celebrate the progress that has quite right to point out the issues of involving women been made in this area, understand the real scale of in the decision-making process. That is nowhere more the challenges ahead, and determine to redouble our true than in the media. One of the most significant efforts to ensure that the voice of women in journalism ways in which we can seek to ensure the continuing is heard ever more loudly. advancement of women is to see to it that their voice is properly and effectively heard in newspapers and 1.34 pm magazines, and in the broadcast media. For that voice is the engine of progress. That means getting more Baroness Morgan of Ely: My Lords, I feel very women into journalism in developing countries. The privileged, not just to be present here as a new Member, more women reporters there are, who have direct but also because I shall have the honour of speaking experience of improving the position of women, the for more then three minutes, which is more than I ever louder and clearer the message of how to foster lasting had in my 15 years serving in the European Parliament. change will be heard, even in countries where there is Nevertheless, I will keep my contribution brief because still a great deal of repression. That change will embrace I am keen to be back in Wales tonight to vote for so many crucial issues including poverty, domestic further powers in the Welsh Assembly referendum. violence and HIV/AIDS. I say to my noble friend As we celebrate the 100th anniversary of International Lady Heyhoe Flint that it might even cover the coverage Women’s Day, I would like to start by remembering of sportswomen in the media. Viscountess Rhondda. She was a Welsh suffragette Over the past few years there has been welcome who burnt a postbox to draw attention to her cause. progress in this area. India has started to promote She was imprisoned and went on hunger strike; she women into senior positions in the media and Sri was such a nuisance, though, that they let her out in Lanka has had several women editors both in the past four days. She was never allowed to take up her seat in and, indeed, today.Pakistan is almost unique, particularly the House of Lords, as she would have been had she for an Islamic country, in that at one time or another been a man. There are other feisty women from Wales almost every major newspaper has been edited by a like Jemima Nicholas, who repelled the French invasion 1211 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1212

[BARONESS MORGAN OF ELY] formulating the response. So far, there is not much of Fishguard, but I am glad to see this tradition of sign of that. All 27 out of 27 central bank governors feisty Welsh females is alive and kicking in the House of the EU are men. of Lords. These great upheavals, however, offer us opportunities. Despite this, my noble friend Lady Kinnock and I We can learn lessons from elsewhere. If you look at were only the sixth and seventh women in the history what has happened in Iceland, for example, you can of Wales to be elected to full-time public office in see that this has fuelled the transformation in the way 1994. It is great to be back together again, and I thank that the economy is driven. It has turned the key levers her and my noble friend Lady Royall for being my of finance over to women. It has a female Prime supporters. I thank noble Lords and staff for the Minister. A woman heads up two of the major banks warm welcome that I have been given since entering there. In Iceland, risk awareness, profit with principles, the House. It was particularly lovely to be greeted this emotional capital and sustainable growth are not morning by a Welsh-speaking policeman on my way fashionable buzzwords, but are accepted as a part of in. It is a very different experience from entering the good business. European Parliament as the youngest Member in 1994. We have come a long way since Viscountess Rhondda In fact, I was just about to hit my mid-life crisis. I am took her stance. Of course, we can go further, but let happy to say that, on coming here, it suddenly abated. us not let the centenary pass without recognising the We have come a long way in 100 years. Personally, immense strides that have been taken in the past hitherto, I think that I have probably benefitted career-wise century. I thank my noble friend Lady Gould for from being a woman, but I recognise that that is introducing this debate, and I look forward to making exceptional. I, along with other women, have a many more contributions in this House. responsibility to help others who have struggled because of their gender. 1.39 pm Women’s representation in politics in Wales has Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, I offer changed dramatically since 1994, but it took the warm praise for the maiden speech of my noble friend establishment of the Assembly and the introduction of Lady Morgan of Ely—that is, Ely in Cardiff. We were a gender-equal selection method by the Labour Party fellow Labour Members of the European Parliament to go from probably the worst representation in the for 15 years, as she has said. She is, and will remain, a world to one of the best. We had more women in the deeply cherished and admired friend. In 1994, when Cabinet than we had men. That was absolutely unique we both became MEPs, she was, as she said, the in the world. Much thanks for this achievement must youngest Member. I never ceased to be impressed by be given to my noble friend Lady Gale, who worked the way that she juggled travelling to and from Brussels tirelessly as the general secretary of the Labour Party. and Strasbourg with caring for two young and delightful She gained recognition for her work, gaining the accolade children. Her fine maiden speech has shown her qualities of Welsh Woman of the Year for her great work in this of energy and passion for justice and she is a formidable area. I thank her for tutoring me not just through my feminist. She is forthright, feisty and steeped in politics. entrance into this place, but also through the past Her father was a very political vicar in Cardiff. She 15 years. Recent political selections, however, for grew up in Ely, often sharing the vicarage with needy Westminster and the Assembly have demonstrated members of her father’s flock. Today she has shown that unless we keep the foot on the pedal we will revert that energy and passion, which I have grown to love, to the previous trend. and her determination to continue to fight for justice, which I know will be valued by us all on all sides of the Economically and educationally, women are more House. powerful than ever. The Economist has stated that over past decades women have contributed more to I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, not the expansion of the world economy than technology just for initiating the debate but for her unrelenting or emerging markets. This fact is generally ignored. and unwavering support and fight for the rights of Now, however, we are experiencing the most severe women. In 1911, women and men celebrated the recession since the great depression, with dire consequences first International Women’s Day. At that time, life for women across the globe. There is a real danger that expectancy for women in Britain was 55. They did not we will see a pushback on the gains that we have seen have the right to vote and certainly my grandmothers in recent decades. lived a life of toil and drudgery with little education or healthcare. The European Commission, in its 2009 report on inequality, stated that the economic slowdown was Gender discrimination is pervasive and pernicious likely to affect women more than men. In the past, and to varying degrees women and girls simply do not women’s concentration in the public sector has helped enjoy equal access to resources, opportunities and protect women from the initial impact of a recession. political power in any region of our world. Women are Not this time. Almost half the women who work in disproportionately affected by poverty and violence Merseyside are employed in the NHS, schools or the and make up most of the world’s poor and illiterate caring professions. In Greater Manchester, the figure people. The millennium development goal targets will is two out of five. Cuts to children’s services are likely not be met in any of the countries where the needs and to make life very difficult for many women. status of women are a low priority. Does the Minister agree with me that gender equity, given the multiplier How was the recession caused? Literally, it was a effect it has on the MDGs, is the most important manmade disaster. Women need to be included in linkage that we need to address? 1213 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1214

I have met many wonderful women across the world inwards a little into what this House, and the women who courageously oppose discrimination and tyranny in it, can do given the increased number of talented and who face terrible reprisals for their pains. Surely female Peers who have entered the House. It falls on no history, religion or cultural tradition can justify our shoulders to ensure that no subjects debated in any tolerance of the injustice and inequality that this House should be regarded as “boys’ subjects”. On millions of women face. We see what Hillary Clinton 12 November last year, this House debated the defence has called a “pandemic of violence” against women. and security review. That debate had a similar number Mass rape is routinely used as a weapon of war and of speakers to today’s debate—some 40—but less than far too often impunity prevails. I have met and talked a handful of women spoke. However, almost nothing to women in Darfur who have been raped and abused will affect our sisters throughout the world more than as they collected firewood outside their camps, and to our attitude to war and conflict. Not even our attitude women in the eastern Congo who have been raped on to trade and aid is more influential than how we their way home from market. What does one say to choose to deploy our military strength, or, indeed, such tortured, impoverished and war-weary women whether we choose to develop or deploy it at all. That who know that they have no judicial redress and that should be a burning issue for debate among us women they will live with that stigma for the rest of their lives? as women throughout the world directly suffer the The women that I met in the Congo had been brutally consequences of our action or lack of action. raped and left for dead. Dr Mukwege operates in the I was extremely pleased to hear the noble Baroness, Panzi hospital on something like 3,500 women a year Lady King of Bow, say that we should not let everything who have been raped. On his lapel he wears a badge remain the same and that things have changed far too which says, “Don’t stand idly by”. I will never forget slowly. I suggest that we have been far too slow to those women or, most of all, the concern that they change our attitude to war and conflict. The arms showed not for themselves but for what had happened trade treaty that was published in draft in February to their missing children. offers a tremendous opportunity to effect world change. In south Sudan last week the all-party parliamentary I hope that the UK’s contribution to that treaty will group met parliamentarians, including a number of continue to be as energetic as it should be. However, women, who looked forward to a future which guaranteed the draft contains no direct reference to the effect of a secular state with a strong commitment to equal arms and small arms, particularly on women. The treatment and positive measures to ensure the selection noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, spoke movingly about and election of women. However, that new country the effect of conflict on women in places such as the will face enormous challenges and expectations are DRC. That treaty would be strengthened with that high. In south Sudan a 15 year-old girl has a higher sort of reference. chance of dying in childbirth than she does of finishing Many of these problems can be solved by women primary school. We visited the hospital in Juba where themselves. They have the knowledge to do so, but the the major cause of death in childbirth is haemorrhaging. problem, as many speakers have said, is political Many women die but there is no blood bank in that representation—19 per cent representation across the hospital with which to save them. In the north we met world is not nearly good enough. No matter what women in Khartoum who told us about a retrenchment approach we take to other issues, it will only ever be a of fundamentalist views and an even greater imposition sticking plaster to cover those problems until women of draconian laws driven by a religious ideology intent themselves are in a position of power in their Governments on oppressing women. Will the Government urgently to solve them. respond to these concerns? These are surely strong reasons why we need the United Nations women’s agency to be I, too, commend the work of Lesley Abdela, who up and running. It is simply not acceptable for the was mentioned by the noble Baronesses, Lady Gardner Government to postpone making a firm funding pledge of Parkes and Lady Scott of Needham Market. Lesley until the board meeting in June when UN Women will Abdela has worked her whole life to improve women’s present its first annual plan. How is UN Women meant political position throughout the world. Even now, she to prepare, hire staff and open regional offices when it is working on the Egyptian issue. She should certainly has no predictable funding from donors such as the be in this House, but that would take her away from UK in this transitional period? Equity for women is her front-line job; perhaps it is lucky for the women of clearly a matter of justice but we should confirm today the world that she is not here. that it is also a political, economic and social imperative. Lastly, I shall comment on Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s mWomen initiative, which is putting mobile phone technology into the hands of women. An all- Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I fear that I woman technology delegation has gone this very week need to remind noble Lords and noble Baronesses that to Liberia and Sierra Leone to promote putting technology this is a timed debate and that we will run into difficulty into the hands of women to enable them to communicate if speakers take longer than their allotted time. That better. It is a particularly useful initiative, because will eat into the time that the Minister has to respond communication is the first step on the road to political to so many splendid speeches, so I hope that speakers power. will be succinct.

1.47 pm 1.52 pm Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, Lord Patel: My Lords, many of you will have heard after hearing so many truly inspiring maiden speeches of HeLa cells, but perhaps not. HeLa cell lines are and many terrifically moving speeches, I want to look human cancer cell lines that were first grown in 1951 and 1215 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1216

[LORD PATEL] Women are different from men, and I state the which, 60 years later, are still growing in laboratories obvious because we as women are underselling that worldwide. They have been and still are used for fact as our USP. In the recent report by the noble research into finding cures for diseases. Research using Lord, Lord Davies of Abersoch, about women on HeLa cells has led to the development of vaccines for boards, the most interesting aspect, which did not get polio and the treatment of cervical cancer, to name enough attention when the report was published, was only two areas. The cells are also used to treat diseases not that more women should be on boards but that such as cancer, HIV/AIDS, diabetes, leukaemia and having more experienced and successful women on many others. Some 18,000 patents have been registered boards is important to business. The answer, it seems, using modified HeLa cell lines, and have provided is that more of us equals more commercial success. industry with hundreds of billions of dollars of revenue. I will not repeat the evidence in that report, to Several Nobel prizes have been awarded to scientists which the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, who used HeLa cells for research. Each and every one referred, but it showed that we women bring not just of us has benefited from cures for and the prevention equal ability but something different to the table. of disease as a result of research on HeLa cells. When we get on to those boards, or arrive anywhere, HeLa cells are so called because they were originally what is it about us that makes a difference? The noble obtained from Henrietta Lacks—without her consent. Lord, Lord Sugar, perhaps gave us a clue when he She died at the age of 31 from an aggressive form of talked about his experience of women executives being cervical cancer in Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore. more focused and lacking in ego in the way that they She was a black woman descended from slaves. She made their contributions to his organisations. Perhaps was born in poverty, lived in poverty, was uneducated we will never have a clear answer to the question, and and, being black in the southern USA, was treated as the simple fact that we make a positive impact might an inferior human being. A few months before her be reason enough. death, she attended Johns Hopkins Hospital because she felt a growth and was suffering pain. The doctor However, something is getting in the way of us who saw her took two specimen samples of tissue achieving the access that we need to make a difference from her growth—one was for pathology diagnosis, in more of those major corporations—a difference the second he passed to a scientist carrying out research that would be in everyone’s interest. There is recent in growing human cells outside the body. Most cells evidence from research taken among women managers obtained from other tissue samples died after a few already working in big organisations that low self- days, but not Henrietta Lacks’ cells. Their number confidence is creating a barrier to their chances of doubled within 24 hours and kept doubling, even in reaching the boardroom. However, the same cannot subsets, every 24 hours. They have been doing that be said for all women. Indeed, increasing numbers of ever since for the past 60 years. Tons of HeLa cells younger women in particular are aspiring to run their have been grown in laboratories worldwide over the own businesses. past 60 years. Henrietta Lacks was recognised last It seems that when we can control the criteria that year by a tombstone near where she might have been determine our success, little gets in our way. I do not buried—no one knows exactly where she is buried. think that we as women need more self-confidence in It is time for humanity to pay back the debt to our ability, we just need to be more confident that the Henrietta Lacks. How? Every two minutes in the choices we make and the priorities we have as women world a woman dies of cervical cancer. More than reinforce what makes us different, and therefore valuable. 500,000 women develop cervical cancer every year, We also need more confidence that those who control the majority in countries in Africa and Asia. To a the channels of opportunity, especially in big business, majority of young girls in the world, a cervical cancer want successful and able women from all backgrounds vaccine to prevent that disease is not available because to put themselves forward. it is too costly for those countries to buy and set up Finally, I will mention a small group of women in programmes such as those we have here. There is an Nottingham who I know well. So that they know I am opportunity for us to do so today, and the Minister, talking about them, because they tell me that they are without any cost to the UK Government, could launch following my progress, I shall share with noble Lords a UN fund to which we should all contribute—including the name they jokingly give themselves. They call the industry, which has made billions of dollars in themselves the riff-raff girls. Between them they have revenue. We should launch a global Henrietta Lack won battles with cancer, and they have coped with fund to treat women with cervical cancer and prevent widowhood, some of them at a young age when they it developing. still had young families, with the loss of close family members in tragic circumstances, some of them including 1.56 pm their children, and with the other kinds of everyday Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I echo the trials and tribulations that ordinary women with modest congratulations given to the noble Baroness, Lady incomes face and cope with all the time. What makes Gould of Potternewton, on securing this debate. It is a these ladies so special—and I stress the word “ladies”, real privilege to participate in it with so many distinguished as these women, most of whom are pensioners, are noble Baronesses. I confess that until recently I did not most certainly not riff-raff—is their zest and joy for know that there was such a thing as International life. These women face challenges every day, but they Women’s Day. When I found out about it, I was a bit never let that get in the way of having an honest good disappointed, because to my mind every day is women’s time. I would like to dedicate my speech in this debate day. If it is not, it should be. about women to those very special ladies. 1217 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1218

2.01 pm some idea of how the Government intend to respond to my noble friend’s 10 recommendations, especially Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I, too, thank my as boards and chairmen are being asked to announce noble friend Lady Gould of Potternewton for instigating their goals in response to his report within the next six this centennial debate and for all her work on behalf months? of women over many decades, including her expert chairing of the Women’s National Commission, which This has so far been a positive, expert, useful and I, too, had the privilege to chair between 1999 and sparkling debate, with wonderful maiden speeches. If 2002 before handing over to the noble Baroness, Lady we ask ourselves how women have fared in the past Prosser. 100 years, the reply of Mao Tse-Tung, when he was asked what the lessons of the French Revolution were, It is a very great shame that, as we celebrate 100 years would suffice: “It is too soon to tell”. of International Women’s Day, we also acknowledge the demise, in the past few months, of the Women’s National Commission, a body that has represented 2.06 pm the entire women’s voluntary sector since the Wilson Lord Loomba: My Lords, I am delighted that your Government, and through all Governments until now. Lordships’ House is debating the global and domestic I have to say to the Minister, who I know takes her challenges of women to mark this year’s International brief very seriously, that abolishing the WNC will be Women’s Day. I first thank the noble Baroness, Lady seen as short-sighted, not only in the years to come Gould. but now, with the Government’s current promotion of I will focus on widows around the world who are concepts such as the big society, which we know can poor, illiterate, unable to find work, and disadvantaged. work only if it is organised and driven by women. In 2008, the Royal Institute of International Affairs, In the course of 100 years, women’s lives in this widely known as Chatham House, conducted a survey country have changed out of all recognition. Hugely on widows. It found that discrimination against widows improved health and education systems, universal suffrage, is widespread, and a global problem, as they are access to family planning, and some control over treated worse than the general female population. economic independence through entry to the labour I declare my interest as the founder and chairman market, all add up to incredible progress. Yet before trustee of the Loomba Foundation, a UN-accredited we become too self-congratulatory, we have only to global charity that has raised awareness of the plight look at the hard facts in any area of UK life to pull us of widows around the world since 1997, when it was up short. In the political arena, for instance, we see established in the UK. Last year, we commissioned a that, since women gained the vote, there have only ever comprehensive research study on widows, which revealed been 32 female Cabinet Ministers—32, my Lords, in that there are over 245 million widows, and 500 million 82 years. I am proud that 21 of those were Labour children, who suffer in silence. One hundred million Cabinet Ministers, and that former Cabinet Ministers widows live in poverty, struggling to survive, and are taking part in this debate, but the shortness of the 1.5 million children of widows will die before they list is derisory, spanning as it does two centuries. reach their fifth birthday. It also revealed that widowed In the world of work, women are still vulnerable, women experience targeted murder, rape, prostitution, despite many advances. The present speed and scale of forced marriage, property theft, eviction, social isolation, public sector cuts is not helping that vulnerability. The and physical and psychological abuse. Children of recent labour force survey finds that the cuts will lead widows face horrors such as child marriage, illiteracy, to hundreds of thousands of job losses for women, as loss of schooling, forced labour, human trafficking, my noble friend Lady Morgan has said, because women homelessness and rape. form 53 per cent of the jobs in public sector services Without a doubt, it is a huge problem that has not that have not been protected from the cuts. These are been adequately addressed by the UN or any nation so all held by women. It is clear that, despite the coalition’s far. Unfortunately, the number of widows is increasing expectation that, in the world, mainly through poverty, HIV/AIDS and “all sections of society who are able to contribute to deficit conflict. We can see that the conflict in Libya will reduction should do so”, sadly leave many women as widows. In Afghanistan, women are bearing the brunt of the present cuts. due to the war, there are more than 2 million widows Finally, I briefly mention the world of the boardroom, in a country with a population of just 26.6 million. as mentioned by several others this morning. I very Afghan widows are often displaced from their homes much welcome the report of my noble friend Lord by their in-laws. Davies of Abersoch, Women on Boards. It is a vital I am happy to say that, through our tireless campaign, contribution to the debate on achieving more women last year the United Nations declared 23 June as in decision-making roles in our economy. Since the International Widows Day, which was initially launched crash of 2008, a much wider pool of executive talent is by the Loomba Foundation here at the House of needed more urgently than ever. As my noble friend Lords in 2005. The UN-recognised International Widows points out, only 12.5 per cent of directors of FTSE Day is an effective platform for national Governments, 100 companies are presently women. This is not a NGOs, corporates and individuals to focus on to statistic of which any of us can be proud. Does the highlight the plight of impoverished widows throughout Minister agree that companies and CEOs will take the the world. It is, indeed, the commencement of a journey problem of a lack of diversity on company boards to restore widows’ rights and dignity, and to empower seriously only if the spectre of legislation casts its them, that will also enable the UN to meet the millennium shadow over them? Would she also give the House development goals on extreme poverty, healthcare, 1219 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1220

[LORD LOOMBA] Having represented a very rural seat—sadly no education, equality and empowerment. For too long, longer there—in the heart of God’s own county, Devon, widows have been neglected and sidelined in the policy- for many years, I am familiar with the needs of women making process. They must be at the heart of this process. in rural communities. Many of the issues that I hope will be at the top of the Government’s priority list 2.10 pm domestically are domestic violence and the difficulties of women, particularly in remote rural areas where Baroness Browning: My Lords, I add my thanks to they do not take their part in society even now, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gould of Potternewton, not many of us are able to do. Rural isolation is a big just for opening the debate in such a splendid way but problem for many, particularly women. If you live in a for bringing it to the Floor of your Lordships’ House very remote farmhouse that is accessible only by private today. She mentioned the 1990 UN Conference on transport and you are the victim of domestic violence, Women, which I was very privileged to attend as it is difficult to get out of the house and seek help, government co-chairman of the Women’s National even if you are strong enough to do that. I hope that Commission. It is worth reflecting that although that the Government will take on board the need to identify was just 16 years ago, much of the debate at that time those women in their locations and that they will was around the fate of the girl child, recognising that benchmark that in the way in which they have given in some parts of the world simply to be born female priority to overseas aid. was almost an automatic death sentence. We might feel 16 years later that we have moved on, and in many ways we have. Looking at the Government’s programme 2.16 pm on UK aid over the next four years, which other Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen: My Lords, I, contributors have mentioned today, it is very encouraging too, thank my noble friend Lady Gould for this debate to see that my right honourable friend the Secretary of today. She really is an inspiration to us all. State has the theme of the needs of girls and women I want to speak about the global challenge faced by going through that document and statement. Others one woman in particular. She is one of the most have mentioned individual parts of it—the noble Baroness, remarkable people it has been my privilege to meet. Lady Gould, mentioned it in her remarks. I was pleased Her name is Sarah de Carvalho and she is the key to see that the Government intend to focus on issues founder of Happy Child International, an organisation such as the number of women whose lives are lost, that was established in 1993 to help street children in some at a very early age through pregnancy and Brazil. Its aim is to rescue, restore and reintegrate childbirth. these children into their families and society and to We have been fortunate in this country in successive save them from dangerous and violent street life, especially Secretaries of State at DfID who have grasped the child prostitution. agenda and kept the focus. The Government have set Sarah began her work by establishing a mission in priorities for women’s health, for example. Women Belo Horizonte, which is in the south of Brazil. After need to be assisted to become more economically able 18 years of operations, this mission is now completely through programmes that sometimes seem to us in the self-funding and has a local team of 60 staff. The West rather small steps, such as allowing and enabling mission has so far rescued more than 8,000 street women to set up very small-scale businesses through children. The model of Belo Horizonte is now being which they can sell some of what they produce to get replicated in Recife in north-east Brazil where girls as them out of the downward cycle that ultimately for young as 10 are engaging in prostitution for the price many leads to ill health for them and their families, of a meal—approximately £1.50 in our terms. Many of and all too often death. These are big issues. In some their clients are from Europe, and political recognition ways they make the needs that we try to fight for as of this fact is needed to really tackle the global problem women in this country almost insignificant when we of child prostitution, which sadly is on the rise. are still talking of so many millions of people, particularly I witnessed the phenomenon of child prostitution women and children, for whom every day is a battle when I visited north-east Brazil a few years ago. The for life or death in one way or another. sight of these young vulnerable children being used by Having set that down as my opening remarks, I will their pimps to entice men who had arrived on the rich move on to some domestic agendas. I say to my noble tourist cruise ships is one that I have never forgotten. friend on the Front Bench that coming out of the UN This memory is just one of the reasons why I have Conference on Women was something that we described become the proud patron of Happy Child International. back in 1995 as the mainstreaming of issues for women Currently there are no projects to help the young girls through government departments. I would like her to who inevitably have their babies in the street. That is take that on board. I am sad that the Government why the plans for the Recife mission include a maternity have decided that the Women’s National Commission unit. should be abolished, and I hope that they will reflect Another major reason why I am patron of Happy on that. I also hope that my noble friend will take back Child International is Sarah herself. I said earlier that to the Government what has happened to the the need Sarah is remarkable, which is a great understatement. that was identified in 1995 to look at every policy that She is totally dedicated to her work raising money for a Government produce and ask how it impacts on her projects to house homeless girls and teach them women. To benchmark women is not an expensive how to form proper relationships with other human exercise; it does not need a big budget, just a change of beings. She works with individuals and organisations practice. All government departments would benefit to do this. Sarah and her team have brought hope and from reintroducing that and making sure that it works. happiness to children who have had little other happiness 1221 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1222 in their young lives. It is more than 200 years since Despite all this progress, here we are in the 21st century, slavery was abolished in the UK, yet children are still on the eve of the centenary of International Women’s enslaved in Brazil to enforced prostitution, violent Day, witnessing an avalanche of imagery and media gangs and abuse by adults. Happy Child International promotion of highly sexualised behaviour by women. believes that there are 12 major evils facing a Brazilian Children and young people are being influenced so street child: violence, poverty, prostitution, fear, criminal strongly to believe that fame, riches and happiness can gangs, abuse, drugs, exploitation, abandonment, loneliness, be achieved by using sex as a commodity. We all know despair, and finally death. that the sexual exploitation of women is ageless but, in Despite efforts of the Lula Government and the recent times, the globalisation of the media—and that current Government, Brazil still contains far too many includes the internet—has led to an explosion of the street children. In the run-up to two important future sexual objectification of women. Women are being events in Brazil—the World Cup in 2014 and the encouraged, paid and enticed to portray themselves in Olympic Games in 2016—the prospect of more young more and more explicit sexual ways, and the media are girls becoming prostitutes is high. That is why Happy all too happy to give them the platform to do so. There Child International is determined to continue its work are even websites where young girls advertise for sugar in Recife. It is also planning to open a third city daddies. I am sad to say women have been commercialised mission in Africa, which links in with the fact that and used both to objectify women and to make money. most of the Brazilian street children today are the Of course, many of the organisations which employ descendents of African slaves, mainly from Angola women in this way are owned and run by men. The and Mozambique. odd thing is that many of the women involved will About the future, Sarah says: argue that they are liberated and free to choose what “Our work in Brazil and Africa over the years ahead will be they do. But I believe there is a strong element of tough and the challenges many, but nothing compares with seeing powerful persuasion at work which makes many women a life transformed from the hopelessness of the streets to a life of consider that this path is the only way in which to stability, love and opportunity”. become successful, especially nowadays in the pop On International Women’s Day, let us celebrate this music industry, where some of the performances and woman and this organisation, which are making a videos are so sexually explicit. Recent studies have difference in a difficult world. shown that many young girls are so heavily influenced by the success of glamour models, footballers’ wives, 2.21 pm pop singers and talent show singers that they aspire to join their ranks rather than follow a career in teaching, Baroness Benjamin: My Lords, I am delighted to law, medicine, science or technology. They just want to take part in this debate and thank the noble Baroness be rich and famous. Of course, the reality is that for securing it, as it celebrates the victories and challenges glamour, fame and fortune, social gratification and that women have faced and are facing across the globe. success are rarely the reward. I congratulate all noble Baronesses on their excellent maiden speeches, which highlight the great contribution My main worry is that, while all this is happening, that women have made to society. children and young people are soaking up the imagery and accepting the messages and culture they portray Over 100 years ago, here in Britain, women fought as the norm. In the era in which we now living, and died to get the vote, to get their voices heard. In children and young people are losing their innocence 1955, my dear friend and mentor Lady Lothian, who far too early as they are exposed relentlessly to this was fondly know as Tony, co-created the Women of sex-object culture. I am sure that the valiant women the Year Lunch, to celebrate women’s professional who over the decades fought and sacrificed to win achievements. I was proud to be chair of the lunch for equality and recognition for women’s place in society five years, and I am pleased to say that the noble would be appalled by the way in which many women Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, now presides in the 21st century allow themselves to be exploited, over the lunch. degraded and manipulated. In the 1960s, the feminist, bra-burning, women’s lib I believe we have opened a Pandora’s box. Things movement set the scene and signalled the beginning of have been taken to the extreme and, sadly, I have no real change towards equality. Huge advances were answer as to how we can reverse the trend in the sexual made; hard-working women such as my mother and objectification of women, and how to protect our many others made sacrifices for their daughters in children against its influence. But I do know that the order for them to succeed. We all aware that it has global and domestic challenge is for women to join taken longer for some individuals and organisations to together and lead the fight against it, and to put embrace change. Nevertheless, real change has been frameworks in place to address the problem—to go made, and many women have crossed that invisible all-out to promote positive role models, and for women barrier. They are educated, influential and powerful in to stop allowing themselves to be exploited by the many areas of society. But we all know that there are culture of sexualisation for the sake of their daughters still many women yet to make that quantum leap. and their granddaughters. If they do not, where will it Some are facing numerous challenges—of abuse of end? every kind, trying to keep their families together, watching their sons dying from gun and knife crime and wars. But many have not given up hope; they are 2.25 pm fighting back; they are survivors and nurturers. Some Baroness Coussins: My Lords, I, too, must start by have set up projects to change young people’s attitudes, thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for initiating and are succeeding. this debate, and by congratulating all six of today’s 1223 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1224

[BARONESS COUSSINS] I share VSO’s view that the emphasis the coalition maiden speakers for treating us to such inspiring and Government have placed on women and girls as target interesting maiden speeches. groups in development policy is to be warmly welcomed. I want to raise two questions about women and the But will the Minister today undertake to respond United Nations. The first concerns Security Council positively to the Godmothers campaign being Resolution 1325, about the role of women in peacekeeping spearheaded by VSO to secure an annual core and post-conflict reconstruction. This is an issue that I funding commitment of £21 million from the UK have raised in your Lordships’ House before, because I Government to the new UN Women agency? That have been concerned that the Government have not would represent just 0.2 per cent of the UK’s overseas been doing all that they could do to help to implement aid budget, so it cannot be dismissed as just an extravagant the resolution—for example, by nominating sufficient demand in times of financial restraint. It would show well qualified women for specialist posts. I am pleased the kind of leadership that could help leverage similar that the Government have published the national action commitments from other major donors. plan on implementing the resolution, but several NGOs, not least the United Nations Association of the UK, 2.31 pm still have concerns. One of these is the perceived lack Baroness Seccombe: My Lords, in this centenary of senior-level leadership behind the plan. Can the year, it gives me the greatest pleasure to congratulate Minister reassure the House on that point? The second and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould of concern is about cross-departmental co-ordination, Potternewton, for instigating this annual debate. She which is an obvious need. What mechanisms will be contributes on women’s issues whenever she gets the used to achieve this? Thirdly, can the Minister say opportunity and shares her passion and wide knowledge what funding has been specifically allocated to backing with the House. the action plan? It is always good to take stock once a year and see The question of funding also lies at the heart of the where the country has come from and where we hope second issue I want to raise—the resourcing of the to be going in the years ahead. I wish to honour again new agency, UN Women, which the noble Baronesses, Emmeline Pankhurst and her brave army of suffragettes Lady Gould and Lady Kinnock, have mentioned. who endured so much in their efforts to ensure universal Leading NGOs, including UNA-UK and Voluntary suffrage and for the first time entitle women to cast Service Overseas, have called on the Government to their votes in the ballot box. I went as a five year-old clarify their position as a supporter of this new agency with my grandmother to the polling station and was and to commit the resources which will allow it to left outside as I was not allowed in. She told me with a fulfil its purpose. I strongly associate myself with these great force that I must always use my vote because she requests and ask the Minister to make it a matter of had had to wait so many years before she had had the urgency to clear up this uncertainty over the financial opportunity. As a result, I have treasured that right viability of UN Women. The agency has, after all, and always pass the message on whenever I am on the only just been launched and provides a once-in-a- doorstep. generation opportunity for the UN to improve the Over the years, women’s role in society has changed livelihoods of women around the world. out of all recognition, with women now holding high Despite the advances and advantages of life in the office in every sphere of society and public life. That 21st century for all of us in this Chamber, globally has been accomplished in spite of expectations that it 1,000 women still die each day in pregnancy or childbirth. can be done while mothers juggle all the responsibilities Violence against women accounts for more deaths of bringing up a family. I marvel at the dexterity of so among women between 15 and 44 than cancer, malaria, many energetic young women as they appear to manage traffic accidents and war combined. In Peru alone, a it all and still look a million dollars. I wonder, however, country with which I am proud to be associated on if too much is expected. Some may thrive on their behalf of VSO’s projects on access to justice for victims hectic lives, but for some, the pull of motherhood at of domestic violence, an astonishing 50 per cent of home with young children, can put an enormous women and girls have been subject to violence during strain on the rest of the family. There should be much their lifetime—the majority of them when they were more flexibility so that, particularly with children aged between 10 and 17. Only five months ago, there under school age, mothers can enjoy those few cherished was a powerful joint statement by the Foreign Secretary, years before children fly away. I am always sceptical the Home Secretary and the Development Secretary, about the phrase “Yes, you can have it all”. Giving declaring an expectation that the new agency, UN birth is a precious gift that only women have and Women, would be, rearing children should be regarded as an important “a beacon for strong, positive leadership to promote women’s qualification for future employment. Skills are acquired rights across the whole UN system”. along the way so it is not surprising that a large But we cannot expect only other Governments to number of women start their own businesses and provide UN Women with resources to fulfil that purpose. nearly always make a huge success at them. I am sure The sad truth is that it is already facing a shortfall of that such women would have much to add to the $300 million. Its target budget of $500 million is in boardroom. any case only a fraction of the more than $3 billion Quotas are anathema. They are so patronising and allocated to UNICEF, and VSO for one has calculated demeaning to women, who should be appointed because that a more realistic budget would be at least $1 billion they have the talent and skills required by a company a year. Even that would still account for just 4 per cent rather than just because they are women. Each generation of all UN spending. has its thrusters. I support them wholeheartedly and 1225 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1226 we need them to carry on the thrust forward. I hope 2.38 pm that we will always be compassionate: a society where family life will be respected so that everyone flourishes Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, first, I and not one where everyone is in a straitjacket and add my thanks to my noble friend Lady Gould for expected to fit into a narrow uniformity. This country initiating this debate and for her tireless work for flourishes on its diversity and it is our responsibility to women over many years. ensure that it remains so. The theme of this year’s Commission on the Status of Women that is currently taking place at the UN is: 2.35 pm “Access and participation of women and girls to education, training, science and technology, including for the promotion of Lord Haskel: My Lords, I add my congratulations women’s equal access to full employment and decent work”. to my noble friend on opening the debate, which she That seems like a good starting point for today’s has done for more years than I care to remember. She debate in terms of how the UK is measuring up to commands such respect and affection that the other those goals. Labour Peers appointed with her, all two of us, have always supported her in this debate on International Overall, the past decade has been a great success Women’s Day. story for girls in education. They do better than boys at basic standards of literacy and numeracy at age 11 and In the early days, we discussed challenges such as are leaving boys behind in terms of their attainment at the barriers to women in the caring professions, GCSE and A-levels. In addition, in 2008-09, for the now reinvented as the big society. As others have first time, more than 50 per cent of young women reminded us, today we have a report on the barriers entered higher education, compared to only 40 per that women face on getting onto the boards of the cent of young men. However, behind those statistics FTSE 100 companies. That illustrates the progress are some major causes for concern, because, in the made in our expectations of women, but also UK, women continue to be underrepresented on courses confirms that many barriers remain. But is that all for physical science, technologies, mathematical and that women really need or want in the world of business? computer science and engineering. In fact, in some Surely, it is also important that women should be areas, we are going backwards. For example, five years where the action is, playing their part as executives in a ago, 24 per cent of computer science students were business rather than as the token directors on the women, whereas now the figure is only 19 per cent. board. Meanwhile, women increasingly dominate more traditional The boards of our major companies are important female subjects such as teacher training, where they in today’s world, but tomorrow’s world of business is now make up 76 per cent of students and where 85 per rapidly emerging. Surely that is where we want our cent of primary school teachers are now female, and best brains and those special skills that women bring— nursing and nutrition, where women make up 82 per skills about which my noble friend Lord Sugar and the cent of students. Women are also overrepresented in noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, spoke. New business arts and humanities degrees. models are springing up everywhere in finance and in I have talked a lot about students, but these same searching and using the internet. There are new business issues run throughout the education system. A recent models incorporating climate change, new science, report for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and the so-called experience economy. I hope that the which looked at the career aspirations of 14 to 18 year-olds, Minister agrees with me that that is where women found that the top three jobs that girls believe that must be to play their full roles. they would be working in were teaching, childcare and Other speakers have shown that in today’s world beauty. At a time when we have much to celebrate there are special dangers for women. When women about women’s success in education, there are also joined the armed services they were not expected to considerable concerns about the subject choices that fight on the front line, but in today’s conflict who they make and the consequences for their future careers. knows where the front line is? As a result, we are Of course, there are numerous reasons why girls make slowly learning of the extra bravery shown by women those choices. Parental aspiration and peer pressure in our Armed Forces. clearly play a role, as do the media and celebrity As others have said, sexual violence itself has become portrayals, but in terms of practical politics, there are a tool of war. Women reporters must also show this things that the Government could be doing now to extra bravery. The noble Lord, Lord Black, told us open up new opportunities for girls at school. I have how women reporters encounter special abuse, especially time for just a few examples. when things are in turmoil. Among all the excitement, First, there is evidence that career and subject advice who noticed that a woman CBS reporter was sexually in schools continues to stereotype pupil choices and assaulted in Cairo? You cannot just leave this to men. needs to broaden the offer, both academically and It is equally important to report the impact of revolution vocationally.Secondly, more needs to be done to encourage and change on the lives of women as on the lives of young men to become primary school teachers. That men. could help develop alternative role models and perhaps As my noble friend Lady Gould said, the Labour facilitate better teaching of science and technology at Government recognised the special dangers and barriers that early age. Thirdly, a programme to raise the that women face because of their gender. Do the new educational attainment of working-class girls should Government recognise and acknowledge these barriers, be introduced to help to break the cycle of early and will they continue the good work of the previous motherhood, low parental skills, low family income Government? and high unemployment. Fourthly, the Government 1227 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1228

[BARONESS JONES OF WHITCHURCH] was established. There is consensus that crimes of should rethink their plans to abolish coursework and so-called honour emanate from cultural and not religious re-emphasise exams at GCSE level, as that will roots, and they can be found worldwide, mainly in disadvantage girls and measure a very narrow set of patriarchal societies or communities. Honour, for men, skills. Finally, the Government should reassess their is connected with women’s behaviour because they are priorities for funding higher education to ensure that seen as the property of the family and of the community. our arts, humanities and social sciences retain their When women violate those standards, that is deemed a rightful place in the spectrum of courses on offer and direct blow to the man’s sense of identity. at which, currently, women excel. In 1990, together with a small group of Turkish, The Commission on the Status of Women has set Turkish Cypriot and Kurdish women, I set up the first us a challenge. It is an issue on which the UK should domestic violence project for women from those be leading the world. Let us hope that we can continue communities in London. It was in the aftermath of a to make progress in broadening opportunities for women number of high-profile cases where women were attacked, and not have to look back at the past 20 years as a and in a few cases killed, by their husbands. One high point of women’s educational achievement. woman was stabbed to death in the street in Hackney outside her house when her husband was let out on 2.43 pm bail after attacking her. She was not told that he was going to be released. That cost her her life. Baroness Hussein-Ece: My Lords, I too pay tribute It was a struggle, and no exaggeration to say that to the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for securing this we were subjected to threats and intimidation from important debate and giving us an opportunity to men from those communities, who were threatened by contribute. I also congratulate all the women who our work. I was accused of working to separate women made such excellent maiden speeches today. from their husbands, but we persevered. We secured Last Saturday, I was a guest at an event organised premises and funding. Today, Imece, the Turkish-speaking by the Association of Turkish Women in the UK, an women’s project in Islington, which is still going strong, umbrella organisation. It was a fundraising event for remains one of my proudest achievements. It has Mor Çati—it means “purple roof”—a shelter for women helped thousands of women and has saved many lives. fleeing domestic violence in Istanbul. It receives no Much has improved in the intervening years in government funding and relies on volunteers. Violence increased public awareness, zero tolerance and against women and girls is shockingly universal and prevention—letting women know that they can get one of the most widespread human rights violations help. In London a few years ago, I was moved by the around the world. It is widespread in rich and poor case where a Kurdish father was convicted and sentenced countries. In Turkey, as in other parts of the world, in to life in prison for murdering his 15 year-old daughter, the past few years the protection of women has improved Tulay, because she fell in love with a man. In passing from a legal perspective. However, it is in practice, sentence, the judge told the court: through education and enforcement, that we really “He killed his own daughter because he believed that she had need change. shamed him, his conviction today shows that the true shame was, Some say that countries such as Turkey, seen as a and always will be his to bear”. patriarch society where domestic violence is seen as a Her body has never been found. way to maintain power in relationships both in public My grandmothers had marriages arranged for them and at home, have higher incidence of violence against at the age of 14. They had no schooling. My mother women. Although the issue of violence against women went to school until she was 12, and she was the first has received relatively more government and public girl in her family to go to school. She had an arranged attention in recent years, many Turkish women still do marriage when she arrived in the UK. For me, just one not have the courage to express their need for help. generation later, to be here in your Lordships’ House, The Mor Çati Kadin Siginagi Vafki, the Purple Roof is considered astonishing. Women’s Shelter Foundation, established in 1990 in I pay tribute to the generations who have gone Istanbul, was the first women’s organisation in Turkey before me, who made it possible and make the sacrifices. involved in the protection and support of women They gave me a passion to fight for equality and social experiencing domestic violence. justice. Ending violence against women is one of the The year of 1987 holds special importance for the five priority areas that UN Women will be focusing women’s movement in Turkey. For the first time, a on, and for the millennium development goals. We group of feminists organised a resistance campaign must not take our foot off that accelerator. following a judge’s comment, in turning down a woman’s claim for divorce, that: 2.48 pm “a little ‘whip’ on the back or on the belly is of no harm to Baroness Ritchie of Brompton: My Lords, I, too, women”. thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for initiating As your Lordships can imagine, this caused widespread this important debate, and congratulate all the women anger and demonstrations, and was a catalyst for who today have made their maiden speeches. bringing women together to organise and campaign One area has been an ongoing issue throughout under the banner of, “There is no legal violence”. A history and continues to have a huge impact on the solidarity network was created with the support of lives of many women. I refer to rape of women during doctors and lawyers. In January 1989, a telephone conflict. According to Amnesty International, rape is helpline was created offering legal and practical support now used as a deliberate military strategy. Figures for for victims of violence. Eventually, the Mor Çati refuge the number of rape victims are never accurate, as 1229 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1230 many women feel too ashamed to report rape, but the limited access to higher education—women were felt Alliance for Direct Action against Rape in Conflict not to need education—and had few career opportunities. and Crises has estimated that a minimum of 2 million If women had jobs, those would be of low status and women in conflict zones were subjected to rape between low paid and women were expected to leave those jobs 1990 and 2006. if they got married. Equal pay was a far-off dream. In 2010 the UN estimated that there have been Women did not have control over their own bodies 11,000 rapes of women and men and girls and boys in and there was limited access to birth control centres, the Democratic Republic of Congo. The UN’s special which were only available if one was married or about representative on sexual violence in conflict, looking to be married. Abortion was an impossibility, leading into this issue in east Congo where both government to a growth in back-street abortionists with the resultant and rebel troops use sexual violence as a military damage to women’s health and even lives. strategy, reports one victim saying to her, “A dead rat A great deal has changed. Access to work and basic is worth more than the body of a woman”. rights at work have meant that women have achieved a Last week for the first time a military court in east degree of independence they did not have before. They Congo, investigating a case of mass rape, sentenced a no longer have to stay in relationships that are senior commanding officer to 20 years in prison, finding unsatisfactory. It has become possible to have a career him guilty of crimes against humanity for sending his and to have children, as maternity leave and childcare troops in to rape, loot and brutalise the population of have become available. Of course many improvements Fizi on New Year’s Day. Unusually, 49 women appeared could still be made, but this should not detract from to testify and eight other soldiers were also sentenced. the gratitude we should feel to previous generations of This is a start, but we have much more to do. women who achieved so much. The UK is a member of the UN Security Council. The media in this country have done a great deal to We can take a lead on ensuring that all perpetrators of bring politics and politicians into disrepute through war rape are brought to justice as war criminals. UN emphasis on the misdemeanours of a few. This has Security Council Resolution 1325 on women, peace resulted in some younger people turning away from and security, which has already been referred to, addressed politics and political involvement. That is wrong. Previous for the first time the disproportionate and unique generations of women achieved what they did through impact of armed conflict on women. It emphasises organisation: they became involved in politics; they that rape is a war crime and all states need to prosecute joined unions; they came out on strike for equal pay; those responsible, regardless of amnesties. Resolution they became politicised and campaigned for changes 1820 on sexual violence in conflicts recalls the inclusion in the law to deal with discrimination. They were of rape and sexual violence offences in the Rome successful in securing legislation which outlawed Statute of the International Criminal Court, and stresses discrimination against women in a whole range of that all member states should comply with their obligations activities. The campaigns still continue, of course, and to prosecute persons responsible for such acts. Despite there are now signs, I am glad to say, that younger these resolutions, a recent report, Sexual Violence as a people are participating. Weapon of War, led by the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission, found that, Such campaigning is becoming essential, since the times we are now facing are going to be particularly “the elaborate framework of international and national and political legislative instruments are stumbling at the point of difficult for women. The Prime Minister is now in implementation and falling short of their promise to protect favour of something called the “big society”, but what women”. does it mean? It is apparently about getting people Will the Minister urge the Government to push for involved and working together in communities, and a urgent action through the UN to ensure that all great deal of support is promised to voluntary bodies. perpetrators of sexual violence are brought to justice? However, the biggest group of voluntary organisations is the trade union movement, which is not mentioned. We can also help to strengthen the justice systems Trade unions exist to fight for the rights of their of fragile states through training, diplomatic measures members, who are ordinary working people, but the and post-conflict reconstruction of judicial and military coalition Government appear to threaten a number of institutions and law enforcement. I welcome the latest these rights. This is apparent from recently issued trials in east Congo, but we need to develop ways of proposals dealing with the rights of employees. supporting victims and witnesses through international advocacy and a witness protection fund to support Cuts in public services will mean cuts in job many more women who need our help. opportunities. Some 65 per cent of the jobs in the public sector are held by women. Welfare benefits, 2.53 pm including benefits of particular concern to women, are also to be cut, along with child support, tax credits Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I, too, and perhaps housing benefit. Women, particularly welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate low-paid women, tend to be more reliant on public and thank my noble friend, Lady Gould, for introducing services. Social care for the elderly may be affected as it and the manner in which she did so. local authorities seek to cut back on expenditure. We should be considering, it seems to me, how far Carers are mostly women. It is all very well to talk we have come and how much we owe to previous about volunteering, but not if this is intended to take generations of women. The last century saw really the place of public sector services in which women major advances in women’s rights. At the beginning, have been employed. Are they to work for nothing as women did not have the vote, they had only very volunteers in public service work for which they should 1231 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1232

[BARONESS TURNER OF CAMDEN] women cover in order not to be the object of the gaze be paid? How are they to live? Are they to live on or to be assessed as pretty, ugly, naked or dressed. It is benefits, which are now being reformed—or should I a way for them—I am talking about young women say reduced? born and raised in this country—to make a public These so-called reforms may well cancel many of statement about denying the right of all women to be the advances made in the last century. There is every sex objects. They do not want it. This ought to be indication that the present generation of young women giving respect to that rather than otherising a particular will not be content to be hassled out of the workforce category of women because of their dress code. and back into a traditional, home-based environment. This otherisation also, I might say, hides a vibrant They will do what previous generations have done— conversation going on among Muslim women about organise and insist on their rights. their Islamic rights and entitlements. That debate is One can scarcely talk about women’s rights without raging not only across the internet; I have supervised a passing reference to the amazing events occurring in three British-born girls who were initially non-Muslim—I the Arab world. This is a region that has been notorious did not convert any of them—who looked at the for its neglect of basic human rights, particularly of question of Islam and feminism. There are now three women. At our meetings we have often lamented the theses on the subject at the University of York, among appalling oppression of women in countries where many others. The importance of recognising and extremist religious views have dominated. It was wonderful understanding Muslim women’s contribution to changing to see, therefore, TV films of protesters in Egypt and Islamic law has been ignored and not understood Tunisia where women appeared to be playing a role in because of the label that is given to Muslims who the struggle for freedom and democracy. We have yet cover. to see what eventually happens in the region. The To help Muslim women in this country, I shall ask dominant demand is for democracy, but there can be the Minister something that I have asked about before no democracy if women’s human rights are denied. in this House. Would it be possible to ban the arrival The women we saw on TV clearly recognised this, and of concubines from other parts of the world as wives we must all wish them well. of men who are already married to Muslim British citizens in this country? The second wife has no status 2.58 pm but is a threat to the first wife. Secondly, is it possible that all Islamic marriages should be registered and Baroness Afshar: My Lords, I would like to add my recognised as civil marriages, so that if the marriage thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for yet fails women have a comeback in law to defend their again initiating this debate. I had the great pleasure of position and their children? Such registration would serving under her leadership when she was the chair of also protect those who are vulnerable to unilateral the Women’s National Commission when I was a divorce because divorce would be subject to the courts. commissioner, which I must say was a wonderful experience. 3.03 pm I congratulate our new noble Baronesses, who are clearly good feminists and fantastic additions. In particular, Lord Mitchell: My Lords, like every other noble I would like to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Lord today, I thank my noble friend Lady Gould for King, who was once one of my students. I am basking introducing this debate. Four and a half hours are a in the reflected glory of her excellent speech. tribute to how seriously we all take it. I also congratulate I would also like to declare an interest. I am the the six new Members of our House who have made honorary president of the Muslim Women’s Network, their maiden speeches today. They made a phenomenal which only exists thanks to the great care and support contribution and will add to the great expertise that given to it by the Women’s National Commission. Our exists in your Lordships’ House. network spent two years helping a very disparate I shall talk about an organisation called Women for group of Muslim women to get together to find ways Women International. I have a sort of interest to of becoming an organisation which is now working declare in that my wife Hannah sits on its international effectively right through the UK, and it is a matter of board. There is a remarkable woman called Zainab great regret that other organisations such as ours will Salbi. She is Iraqi, and when she was 15 years old, not find their feet because there is no WNC to help because her father was a pilot for Saddam Hussein, them. her mother was able to get her out of the country and I want to speak about the experiences of Muslim she went to the United States to go to university. women in this country and, in particular, about the When all the trouble started in Bosnia in 1994, she problem that the hijab or niqab—the covering—has went to see what was happening there. She was so been seen as an emblem of subordination that has aghast at what was happening and, in particular, at the been used to identify Muslim women as a category as plight of women in that country that she set up this submissive, as if women were forced to cover because organisation. some bloke told them to do so. As a third-generation Today, Women for Women International specialises Muslim feminist, I can assure your Lordships that I in post-conflict zones and the issues of women in am not likely ever to cover, because my grandmother particular. Various countries are now part of the fought against the veil. However, I feel that it is right Women for Women group: Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, for women to choose how they dress and to be respected Iraq, Sudan, the Democratic Republic of the Congo for the way that they dress. To reply to the point made and Rwanda. Each country has been subject to great by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, many Muslim ravaging and terrible consequences, particularly for 1233 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1234 women. It is those women that Women for Women My contribution is on conflict. I was moved to International seeks to help. It works on an interesting speak in this debate while attending a NATO basis in that women, in particular, in the West, and Parliamentary Assembly meeting last week. We got a some men, are assigned a sister in these countries. briefing on events in the Democratic Republic of the They make a donation of £20 a month and are asked Congo. It was a horrific presentation. The presenter to write letters to their sister to tell her that she is made a point which got me thinking and motivated as recognised and that there is somebody in the West regards this area. He said that it is now more dangerous who cares about what is happening. To date, there to be a women than to be a soldier in modern conflict. are 275,000 such sisters around the world who are That is a profound statement, which should make us receiving money and £53 million has been received by take note. The days in which gallant knights galloped the charity. off to a lonely field to settle their differences “like What happens to these sisters? These women are men”—whatever that meant—are clearly gone. Conflict trained and taught about their human rights, but most in the modern era has put civilians in the front line and of all they are taught how to run a small business and no macho talk about smart weapons can disguise the how to generate income. When that happens, they brutal reality. While combatants may wear armour, become self-sufficient and can provide for their families. drive around in protected vehicles, carry weapons and Women for Women also gives microloans which have empty their payloads from 10,000 feet, women and been tremendously successful. Ninety-eight per cent children on the ground are unprotected in their homes, of these microloans have been repaid. Last May, my schools and market places. Increasingly, we are seeing wife and I went to Bosnia and Kosovo, which was a how they are being used as tools of warfare, a point to harrowing experience. Those conflicts may have ended which my noble friend Lady Ritchie powerfully alluded. 15 and 10 years ago, but to the people who are living Women are in the front line, yet their voice and presence there, it is as if they ended yesterday. We saw terrible are insufficiently felt. issues which are the result of ethic cleansing, rape and My argument is not to introduce a quota approach murder. Women there, particularly Muslim women, to encourage tokenism, but to say that women and who have no confidence in themselves, are now in mothers are the prime victims of modern warfare and business. They are rearing chickens or growing mushrooms that their voice desperately needs to be heard—not for or tomatoes. The best thing we saw there was the the sake of women, but for the sake of humanity. beekeepers of Kosovo. One woman had been trained Balance in international relations means that women to raise bees in hives. She started off with three hives must push for peace more vigorously. All too often that were given to her and now has 10. She has a men seem to be incapable of resisting the urge for war. business and is generating ¤5,000 or ¤6,000 a year and We need more women in the military, not to change is now training 10 other people to do the same. It was the decor but to change the debate. As men, we need a marvellous example of how this system works. You to hear the powerful voice of women. could see the hope that these women were getting in those still-terrible circumstances. I am politics and I suggest that we all are because Next week, on 8 March, it will be the 100th anniversary we abhor violence and want to create a free, safe and of International Women’s Day. Women for Women just society in which to raise our children where the International around the world will be linking hands rule of law operates and there is the democratic operation across bridges from our own Millennium Bridge in of government agencies. We need that voice to be London to the Sydney Harbour Bridge, Brooklyn heard more than ever and to be heard where it counts. Bridge in New York and other bridges around the This is not a criticism of men about opportunities for world. women. It is a call to women to take up their I end with particular thanks to someone who is not responsibilities in public duty in order to influence the in her place but who is very dear to all our hearts: our debate at the highest echelons of the military and in Lord Speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. She politics. has been gracious enough to host several receptions We are talking today about International Women’s for Women for Women International in the River Day. It was of course pre-dated by Mother’s Day, Room. They have been tremendous successes, and I which is an even more important date in the calendar. know she does that for lots of other charities. I am Today, we think of Mother’s Day in terms of chocolates, sure that every Member of this House will thank her cards and flowers, but it had a very serious purpose for what she does. when it was first proposed by Julia Ward Howe, who we remember as the great American poet who wrote 3.09 pm the Battle Hymn of the Republic. She came out of the Lord Bates: My Lords, like everyone in this debate, horrors of the American Civil War and called for a I rise to say how indebted we are to the noble Baroness, congress of mothers to unite in the international Lady Gould, for securing this opportunity to talk community. She wrote the Mother’s Day Proclamation. about these important matters. It has been a particularly I believe that the sentiments in it are even more relevant good debate because of the contributions and the today than they were then, for the reasons which I maiden speeches. Having six noble Baronesses giving have stated. I will close with those words: maiden speeches in a debate on International Women’s “Arise, then, women of this day! Arise all women who have Day must be a triple-word score in politics, although hearts … Say firmly … Our husbands will not come to us, reeking the fact that it still has to be done in the House of with carnage, for caresses and applause. Our sons will not be Lords is perhaps a limitation that shows that we still taken from us to unlearn all that we have been able to teach have a little way to go. them of charity, mercy and patience. 1235 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1236

[LORD BATES] These are laudable statements which are agreed by all, We, the women of one country, will be too tender of those of but they cross over the commitments we have already another agreed and signed up to under the millennium country to allow our sons to be trained to injure theirs … development goals, so there is nothing new about The sword of murder is not the balance of justice. Blood does not wipe out dishonour, nor violence indicate them. possession … My argument is that demonstrating a strong and Arise then women of this day”. good commitment to the umbrella agency of UN Women and bringing a global and overarching approach to our work is much more likely to achieve the goals 3.13 pm stated both in UK Aid and outlined in the millennium Baroness Prosser: At that point, I arise. I join all development goals. So what is the Government’s financial others in thanking my noble friend Lady Gould for commitment to UN Women going to be? The placing this debate on our agenda for today and international community has recognised that there is a remembering that it is the 100th anniversary, which need for an annual budget of $500 million. The noble makes it even more important than it has been in any Baroness, Lady Coussins, has already mentioned that other year. I shall return to a subject that has been that budget is currently $300 million short. The United mentioned once or twice already. Kingdom has traditionally given £21 million per annum The new UN Women agency came into life on 1 to UNICEF, and I would argue, along with others, January. It was launched on 24 February by Michelle that that ought to be our contribution to UN Women. Bachelet, who was previously the President of Chile and is now the head of the agency. In her speech, she 3.19 pm outlined in broad terms some of the areas of work for which the agency will take responsibility. She said: Lord Sheikh: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble “In addition to our role of mobilizing, coordinating and Baroness, Lady Gould, for securing this important leveraging the efforts of others, UN Women will focus on five debate. International Women’s Day gives us an areas … Expanding women’s voice, leadership and participation opportunity to draw attention to the achievements … Ending violence against women … Strengthening women’s full made by women, often through adversity. The last participation in conflict resolution and peace processes … Enhancing 100 years is filled with numerous examples of the women’s economic empowerment; and … Ensuring gender priorities contributions to world history made by remarkable are reflected in national plans and budgets, including capacity to support CEDAW reporting. I am determined that UN Women women such as the suffragettes, led by Emmeline will offer a new dynamic to the global dialogue on gender Pankhurst. Rosa Parks’s actions played a symbolic equality, and bring new energy, drawing on multiple talents, and role in the American civil rights movement. Following bringing together men and women from different countries and her brave act, a chain of events culminated in the communities in a shared endeavour”. United States electing a President of African origin in When I read that, it sounded to me a bit like the global the 21st century. big society. I welcome the launch of the United Nations Entity On 10 January in this House, I asked a Question for Gender Equality and the Empowerment of Women. which sought to elicit from Her Majesty’s Government I am confident that this new body will improve results their plans to provide financial support for the new and efficiency when dealing with this important issue. agency. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, who is The United Nations theme for International Women’s in her seat, was nice in her response and very positive, Day this year is equal access to education. As a former but she did not mention anything about what sort of visiting lecturer, I value the importance of education money could be expected. in giving people greater opportunities. Although there Prior to my Question in January, in November 2010 has been an increase in the number of girls who are in another place, a Question was asked about the entering tertiary education as a whole, this improvement possible expenditure and commitment to the new agency. is not reflected in poorer regions such as, for example, The Minister in the other place replied that a decision sub-Saharan Africa. Women have historically been would be made when the review of overseas aid deprived of chances to gain access to and further their expenditure was completed. That review was completed education, and this has contributed to inequality in and published this week and we still have no word on the workplace. the future funding of UN Women. In February, again Individuals should always be employed and promoted in another place, the Minister advised that they were on merit, but in spite of the large number of talented waiting now for the strategy to be agreed. While the and able women across industries, very few senior UK is part of the executive council and that debate, I positions are filled by them as a comparative ratio to am confused as to why there continues to be a delay on men. Despite this worrying trend in commerce, women announcing what our commitment will be. have made impressive strides both on the global political Along with others, I welcome the Government’s stage and in their own countries. As an employer, I publication, UK Aid: Changing Lives, Delivering Results. have always believed in promoting staff on merit. The There is much in it that demonstrates a good commitment gender of the person is not material. I read the report and it makes many worthy statements. For example, it of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, with interest and says: would appreciate it if my noble friend the Minister “We will … Help immunise more than 55 million children would respond to it. against preventable diseases … Save the lives of at least 50,000 women in pregnancy and childbirth and 250,000 newborn babies On average, women account for close to 18 per cent … Enable at least ten million more women to use modern of the seats across all chambers of parliament in methods of family planning by 2015”. democracies around the world. Women hold 22 per 1237 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1238 cent of the seats in Latin American and Caribbean through the whole debate and there has been no legislatures alone. Notable progress has also been made repetition, because we are not just talking about women in sub-Saharan Africa, particularly in Rwanda where but society as it is, both domestically and internationally. women account for 56 per cent of the Members in the There is no area that covers women that does not lower Chamber. This is particularly impressive for a trespass on society as a whole, whether it is children, nation that was ravaged by war in the not-so-distant men or whatever it may be. past and reflects the fact that women continue to play The noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, mentioned a pivotal role in upholding peace in formerly unstable that because this is the centenary year, we should regions. commemorate the work that has been done for us by Although this debate is a cause for celebration, I those women who had a much more difficult ride than feel it is pertinent to draw attention to two particularly we have had in getting the women’s case across. I agree harrowing cases. The story of Asia Bibi, a Pakistani with that very much. I have been looking around Christian who has been sentenced to death for blasphemy, London as a non-Londoner this week, as I have been has resulted in the death of a Pakistani politician who travelling to and fro, and I have been absolutely astonished spoke in her defence. Most noble Lords have probably at the lack of visual demonstration of the achievements seen the picture of Aisha, an 18 year-old Afghan girl of women in the streets. You can walk up Whitehall whose nose and ears were cut off by her husband. and see many statues and commemorations—one of These cases serve as a reminder that women are still my favourites is the one with the ladies’ coats and hats facing oppression in certain parts of the world. In on the hooks, gone off to help in the Second World regard to the blasphemy laws in Pakistan under which War but coming back into society—but there is a Asia Bibi was prosecuted, it is my view that the conviction distinct lack of statues that commemorate the work of was totally wrong as Islam regards Muslims, Jews and women. Christians as people of the book. We have our debates in this Chamber, but what Under Islam, women were given certain rights over happens outside also counts. A few years ago in this 1,400 years ago, including the right to own properties debate, I talked about a statue for Sylvia Pankhurst—an and control their earnings. Islam has also given women extremely controversial character—on which I do not the right to inheritance; they have a right to choose think we will get unanimity. She did a lot for women, their husband and no one can impose a decision on not just in fighting for the vote with her mother and them against their will. They can also apply for a her sister, but in the whole area of women’s emancipation, divorce in the event of a matrimonial breakdown. particularly in the East End of London in regard to I chair the Conservative Muslim Forum, which is education and women’s control over their own bodies. an active organisation. We have established a women’s I am working with a group to reinvigorate that campaign group, as we believe in the empowerment of women, for a statue for Sylvia and hope that this time next and it looks at various issues concerning Muslim year, when we have our debate again, I will be able to women in the country. It is important that a woman is report progress on that. I was extremely disappointed educated and given every opportunity to succeed: an to hear that one of the remarks from within this educated woman will play an active role in the House—although not from Members of this House, I advancement and the well-being of her children and do not think; at least I hope not—was, “Really, how her family as a whole. could we have a statue out there to Sylvia Pankhurst I care about issues relating to women. I have spoken so near the House, when she was never a Member and in your Lordships’ House, and elsewhere, on matters never had much to do with it?”. She arrived in what is concerning women that include their maternal health, now our car park at the front from Holloway prison, education, human trafficking, domestic violence and where she was on a starvation strike, to come and talk; rape as a weapon of war. she skipped in through the passages to the then Prime Minister to talk about how we could get the vote for women. The vote for women was an extremely powerful 3.25 pm measure in this country and we want it for all women. Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: My Lords, as I hope we have some success in that area. the last Back-Bench speaker in this debate, I too thank The Speaker has inaugurated a series of schools my noble friend Lady Gould not just for this debate outreach programmes. I have been into seven sixth-forms today but for her dogged determination, year on year, in October and November last year. I was uplifted by to make sure that we have this debate. I well remember the approach of young girls and how they see their the first one, when we were tolerated in a supper-break lives, but I was also very depressed in some of the debate lasting one hour and had to scurry round schools. In all our talk about emancipation, we have to trying to get speakers, with not one man in the Chamber. work hard to make sure that the next generations We have come a long way and owe due credit to the coming up are not forgotten. For some of them, their noble Baroness, Lady Gould, for the work that she has aspirations and their confidence in themselves have done in that regard. not moved on one iota from when I was a young Perhaps the biggest compliment and thanks that woman, when I was scared stiff to stand up and speak she could be paid is to have six maiden speeches in the for myself and think what I could have for the future. Chamber today—all feisty speeches—and we all look The outreach programme is very important; I have forward to the participation of those new Members in learned from it that perhaps things in some areas need many debates across a very diverse area in this House. a lot of work. We must continue to strive to lift the With 44 speakers on one topic, you would have thought vision of young women to make sure that they have there would have been repetition. However, I have sat confidence in themselves to play a full part in society. 1239 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1240

3.30 pm led by VSO calling on the Government to commit £21 million in annual core funding—just 0.2 per cent Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, this has of the UK overseas aid budget—to UN Women. We been an excellent debate and a very fine way to celebrate look to the UN to assist women in conflict throughout the centenary of International Women’s Day, to mark the world. At the UN on 19 June 2008 seven of the the huge achievements to date and discuss the old and 20 nations were represented by women when the Council new challenges that remain. Six formidable maiden unanimously adopted Resolution 1820 and demanded speeches have enhanced our debate and it is clear that the immediate and complete halt of sexual violence the six noble Baronesses are going to add a huge against civilians in conflict zones. It was a very important amount to debates in this Chamber; their knowledge moment, under the presidency of the then US Secretary and expertise will be invaluable as we scrutinise and of State, Condoleezza Rice. So it is not just the technical revise legislation. We have also had two young women ability and expertise which women bring, it is also the at the Table today, which must, I think, be a milestone emotional intelligence that can contextualise and give in this House and we all celebrate that. voice to the aspiration of women across the globe. I pay tribute, like so many here today, to my noble On all sides of this Chamber we are involved in friend Lady Gould of Potternewton for yet again various aspects of civil society.We all applaud volunteering taking this important initiative. This debate, now an and we celebrate the work of our charities. On these annual event, is always a pleasure because it brings Benches, however, we believe that the Government are together women, and some men, from all of our an indispensable partner for the voluntary sector and Benches to discuss issues that have an impact on the bedrock of a strong society. In government we had women’s lives in this country and the wider world. a proud record of supporting the third sector, and There is much that we agree on and I pay tribute to the throughout this House we welcome people who want fine women that we have in this Chamber and their to volunteer. Platform 51, for example, which we used achievements and also to the women who came before to know as the YWCA, does a great job of volunteering us in this House. I used to work for Lady Castle, but I both within its own services and with other organisations, also think of Lady David, Lady Darcy de Knayth and supporting girls and women to make positive changes Lady Carnegy of Lour, to name but a few, all of in the world around them and encouraging them to whom I really revered and of whom I was very fond. give back to society. I am delighted that there has been a focus on international issues. It is women who drive development Mr Cameron has said that he wants to make it on the ground; it is women and girls who so often do easier for people to volunteer, and that is great, but we the hard work in the fields, in social enterprises, using must not forget that people need to earn a living. They micro-loans, in situations where there is conflict, often cannot do jobs for free unless they are wealthy or in fragile states and, of course, in nurturing families, retired, or unless via endless juggling of family sometimes in desperate or violent situations. It is all commitments they can find a few hours a week. too often the women of this world who suffer. The Traditionally, of course, it is women who are at the many statistics we have heard today are stark. The fact forefront of the voluntary sector, and it is they who are that women earn just 10 per cent of the world’s income now suffering disproportionately from the painful cuts and work two-thirds of the hours is just one of them. that are being inflicted on the charitable sector—or The human stories and the human misery about which the “big society”, as the Government like to call it. we have heard are even more stark. I could weep and Not only is the big society being asked to step in to they make me even more resolute to act, not just for pick up the pieces when services are cut, but the scale our girls and young women, as we have just heard and speed of the cuts are severely affecting the voluntary from my noble friend Lady Dean, but for women all and community sectors themselves. They are confronting over the world. two enormous problems, and it is often women who Like many noble Lords, I received an excellent are desperately trying to find solutions. Concern has briefing from VSO entitled The Godmothers: Keeping been expressed by the heads of charities, the CEO of UN Women on Track. I have a very high regard for the the National Council for Voluntary Organisations and work of VSO and I hope to do a placement with them countless non-political people up and down the country. in the Whitsun Recess, treading in the footsteps of The NCVO has set up a brilliant website so that many noble Lords and Baronesses who have seen people are aware of the problems in their local areas, first-hand their work in the field and the impact that and it is chilling to see the number of cuts that have gender inequality has on the lives and livelihoods of been made since the site went live on 24 January. women, from poor health outcomes to lack of access I know that the Minister will say that the cuts are to income-generating opportunities. Women are too being made because of the deficit left by my Government, often held back simply because they are women. That a Government of whom I am extremely proud and is why, like so many other noble Lords, I believe that who did a huge amount for women. I must refute the UN women’s agency is important, working globally those arguments before she makes them. We agree that to empower women to improve their lives and addressing there is a large deficit and it must be dealt with. That is the underlying causes of gender inequality. It has a why we had, and have, a plan to halve the deficit in huge task and I know it is one that the Government four years. However, the Government had a choice support. That is why they continue to target women about how to deal with the deficit and they have and girls in development policy. chosen to cut it too far and too fast. They have chosen Like my noble friends, I am concerned, however, to hit local government with bigger cuts than other about funding and I applaud the Godmothers campaign government departments, and they have chosen to 1241 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1242 front-load so that the heaviest cuts fall in the first year further research and write a report. I know that some rather than being spread evenly over four years. This is people—including the Fawcett Society, for which I having a profound effect on women who work and have huge respect—will be disappointed that he did volunteer in charities, who work in public services and not recommend a quota system but if headhunters who benefit from services. and company chairmen fail in their task to recruit a As noble Lords will know, I come from the Forest proper proportion of women on to boards, there must of Dean in the south-west where there are many rural in time be legislation and quotas. Will the Minister areas. Women in rural areas, as well as in urban areas, confirm that the Government will not hesitate to are being hit by a huge cut in bus services, by cuts in legislate, if necessary? respite care if they are carers or being cared for, by We know from all the research and evidence that cuts in luncheon and other clubs if they are elderly, by having more women on boards is not just a matter of cuts in youth centres and services if they are young, by addressing an unacceptable inequality.It is about enabling cuts in the EMA if they are teenagers, by cuts in Sure boards to achieve better outcomes for their companies Starts if they are young mums and by cuts in libraries, and for wider society. I agree with my noble friend including mobile libraries, which are so important for Lady Gould that just as the time was right for this women living in isolated areas. report on women in the boardrooms, perhaps we Women and men in rural areas are also being hit should now be doing more work and taking more very hard by the rise in fuel prices. From these Benches action on the participation of women in the whole we call upon the Chancellor to reverse the VAT rise on field of decision-making at all levels. Women must fuel that has added nearly 3p to the cost of a litre of have access to power and participate in decision-making petrol. That would profoundly help women and men if the necessary changes in our global society are to be all over the country, especially those in rural areas. made. Many noble Lords have raised the issue of domestic Today, in addition to celebrating the achievements violence, and I note that the excellent charity Women’s we have made and discussing the challenges here and Aid has warned that government cutbacks could be in the wider world, we have had a superb lesson in catastrophic for victims of domestic abuse in the UK. social history. I will certainly remember the name of I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, Mr Justice Joyce: I might even stick pins in him from for her practical and excellent work. Noble Lords all time to time. Despite political and policy differences around this Chamber are concerned about domestic around the Chamber, we are united in our pursuit of a violence and I ask the Minister, who I know shares vision of society in which men and women have the these concerns, to do her utmost to ensure that emergency same opportunities, rights and obligations wherever safety accommodation places and support for victims they may live. This is our responsibility. To realise that of domestic abuse are protected from the cuts. The vision, we have to raise our voices, as my noble friend Government cannot hide behind the fact that they are said. That is what we are doing today and what we can providing the money to local authorities; those authorities and must continue to do. are having to make dreadful cuts, and it is often women who are living in very violent situations who 3.43 pm suffer. Baroness Verma: My Lords, it is an enormous honour Next week on International Women’s Day I am to respond on behalf of the Government to what has having lunch here with an extraordinary woman and been an absolutely magnificent debate—a treasure her children. She was attacked by her husband with an trove of priceless experience, commitment and vision. axe when she was asleep and, among other injuries, All noble Lords’ contributions have ensured that the she lost an eye. She has benefited greatly from the marking of the centenary year of International Women’s support of many charities, including the Castle Gate Day has rightly highlighted and focused the continued Family Trust at Gloucester prison, of which I am need to mark this day with both celebration and a proud to be the patron. Many of those charities are need to remain proactive for positive change. I start by now struggling to survive despite the fact that this thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Gould of amazing woman, having been a beneficiary, is now Potternewton, for securing the debate, a responsibility working with them, which is absolutely terrific. she has taken for quite some time. Over the years, she The noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, has worked tirelessly to ensure that the cause of equality rightly spoke of the situation in Egypt and the evolving for women is enhanced at every opportunity. We pay situation in the Middle East, as did many other Peers. tribute to her and to all men and women who share Like others, I note that there is not one single woman our common vision. on the constitutional committee in Egypt and I very We are particularly privileged that several noble much hope that our Government, the EU and the UN Lords chose this debate to make their maiden speeches: will do their utmost to try to ensure that where there is the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton, Lady Heyhoe-Flint, democracy-building in the Middle East and new Lady Jenkin of Kennington, Lady King of Bow, Lady institutions being built there are women, and to encourage Morgan of Ely and Lady Lister of Burtersett. Their these new, emerging democracies to ensure that women contributions were moving and insightful and I have are on those terribly important bodies. no doubt this House will be enormously enriched by Finally, I mention the very welcome report by my their experience and wisdom. noble friend Lord Davies of Abersoch. He was a Like my noble friend Lady Brinton, I see myself as champion for women on boards when he was in a bit of a rebel. Sometimes it is better to shake loose government and was tasked by this Government to do the shackles found among our cultures, more so in 1243 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1244

[BARONESS VERMA] I begin by focusing on the international perspective. some cultures. DfID supports the excellent work that Many noble Members have drawn attention to the she mentioned in Tanzania. My noble friend Lady plight and immense challenges that women face worldwide. Heyhoe-Flint and I share the love of cricket, she as an Last week, I attended the 55th session of the UN excellent player and I as an avid spectator. It is crucial Commission on the Status of Women. All the other to raise the profile of women in sport—that is a Ministers I spoke to, from EU and Commonwealth must—and to see increased diversity on sporting bodies. partners and elsewhere, shared our conviction that My noble friend Lady Jenkin of Kennington said, promoting gender equality is vital for meeting all the absolutely rightly, that there must be more women in millennium development goals. Indeed, experience tells political life. I congratulate her on all the work that us that when women have the power to make their own she has done through women2win. I completely agree choices, the chains of poverty can be broken and that unless men are signed up to this, we will make families can grow stronger. Yet women remain, in slow progress. many parts of the globe, deprived of the most basic of I am sure that I share the frustration of the noble human rights. Baroness, Lady King of Bow, but I am not as pessimistic. I share in the joy of noble Lords that UN Women—the We are making slow progress, but it is progress. Unless single, new and powerful agency working for gender we persist with the equality agenda, nothing changes. I equality and the empowerment of women—was launched assure the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, that we have last week. The new agency will play a fundamental prioritised the NHS, schools and early years provision. role in eroding the vast inequalities of opportunity I understand completely her concerns. We are extending that women face across the world. I attended the free early years education and care for children from launch and was able to set out the UK’s high ambitions the age of two through to four. The noble Baroness, and congratulate the executive director, Michelle Bachelet, Lady Lister, eloquently spoke of the need to tackle who I think will provide excellent leadership. poverty at home. It was right to raise the need for a cultural shift. To make a difference in society we need I assure noble Lords that the Government will to make those cultural shifts—particularly me, I am continue in our efforts to make certain that real action afraid; I see it so often in the BME community. Along is delivered for women, and that the agency is managed with her, I am a true Midlander. I have come across in a way which will command the confidence of the some feisty women from the Midlands who have made financial contributors whose support it needs. To this some incredible societal changes. end we will announce core funding for the agency once We have heard so eloquently in many of the its strategic plan outlining key priorities, a clear results contributions today of the great progress women have framework and strategy for delivering results is available made in this country over the past 100 years. However, in June. In the mean time, we are in close contact with as every noble Lord has acknowledged, even as we UN Women and are offering transitional funding and reflect on the hope of our history we must also face any other support the agency may need to ensure that squarely the reality of our present, a reality still marked it gets off to the strongest possible start. by unfairness and hardship for too many women in this country and across the world. Yet women’s strength, For our part, the UK Government have committed skills and wisdom are humankind’s most untapped to reaching 0.7 per cent of GNI in aid from 2013—a resource. The challenge for us, and what this debate pledge we will enshrine in law. We have pledged to put has addressed so effectively, is how we can overcome women and girls at the front and centre of our the barriers women continue to face to ensure that this development work. On Tuesday this week, following a rich resource can be effectively tapped in ways that review of Britain’s aid programme, the Secretary of benefit us all. I am proud to be part of a Government State for International Development announced plans wholeheartedly committed to that cause. We are to provide 50 million people, many of them girls and unwavering in our dedication to build a society where women, with the means to help them work their way no one is held back because of who they are, or where out of poverty. For example, economic empowerment they come from. I can say that with personal conviction. of girls and women will be our priority. By 2015, we I will battle always to ensure that equal opportunity will create 150,000 new jobs for women in South becomes a norm. Africa and 83,000 new jobs for women in Zimbabwe. In Pakistan, we will provide 897,000 women with In December last year, we published the first ever microfinance. Central to these plans is our commitment cross-government equality strategy, setting out our to give women greater choice and access to family new approach of how we will, right across government, planning and safer births. We have announced that the take action to tackle inequality. It is an approach UK will save the lives of at least 50,000 women in aimed at changing culture, attitudes and tackling the pregnancy and childbirth by 2015 and enable at least causes of inequality, because we recognise that this is 10 million more women to access modern family planning. the only change that lasts. We are further ensuring that efforts to retain girls Although it will be impossible to articulate responses through primary schools and into secondary school to all the contributions that we have heard today, I will are integrated in all our education programmes in try to cover many of the themes of this debate through developing countries. By 2015, the UK will be supporting this speech and the notes I have made as I listened 11 million children, many of them girls, to go to carefully to all contributions. I pledge to write to noble school in the poorest countries. We will make sure that Lords about any questions that I am unable to answer at least 700,000 girls are supported through lower today. primary school. 1245 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] International Women’s Day 1246

I feel it is important to touch on where I see the role The Government are also of the firm belief that if of women in recent events in the Middle East, as we you do the same work as a man, you ought to be paid have heard in all the news reports very little on that. the same wage as a man. So we are working to promote History tells us that the active participation of women equal pay through using transparency. For example, in conflict resolution is indispensable to the struggle through the Equality Act 2010, we have stopped pay against dictatorship and tyranny. We are closely secrecy clauses being used to hide unfair behaviour in co-ordinating with the UN, EU and leading international paying men and women differently. We are also currently NGOs in the Middle East to prepare for a possible in the process of developing a voluntary approach to humanitarian response. Our partners all have clear pay reporting, aimed at private and voluntary sector gender and equality policies which will ensure that the organisations that employ 150 people or more. We will rights of women are protected, and that their participation be consulting shortly on whether stronger measures is an integral part of conflict resolution processes. are necessary in cases where there has been shown to be gender pay discrimination. However, as this debate has so effectively highlighted, while we focus on helping women and girls abroad, we Let me turn to an issue that has been a persistent must not take our eyes off the ball at home. Many cause of concern—violence against women. The noble Lords have also put forward their concerns Government’s ambition is no less than to end violence about the degree to which we will be able to make against women and girls in all its grotesque forms. genuine progress for women in these challenging financial Achieving this will be no easy task and will require times. I do not believe in sugar-coating the situation more than the piecemeal initiatives that we have seen we are in. We inherited a financial and economic thus far, which is why we have pledged to implement situation of great seriousness as a result of dangerous across government a more integrated strategy on debts and a deficit that is simply not sustainable. violence against women, which we will be publishing Cleaning up this mess requires making incredibly tough shortly. We have already taken considerable measures decisions and we take no pleasure in doing so, but they to provide women’s services with a more secure future are decisions that I believe any Government working for them to continue their vital work in this area. in the national interest would have to take. However, While we expect local areas to continue to provide the we have been very clear that we must do it in a way majority of funding to these services, we want to lead that protects the poorest and most vulnerable in our by example. Therefore, in January of this year, we society, as the Prime Minister has consistently said. announced that a total of up to £3.5 million per year This includes women and their families, who we know for three years will be spent on supporting rape crisis greatly depend on public services. That is why, for services. We are further committing an extra £28 million example, we are lifting 880,000 of the lowest-paid of Home Office funding for specialist services over the workers out of income tax, the majority of whom are next four years. For the first time, the strategy will women. It is why we are protecting the lowest-paid bring together work to tackle violence against public sector workers—the majority of whom are women in the UK with details of the international women—from the public sector pay freeze and increasing approach to tackle this global problem. This includes child tax credits for the poorest families, protecting the appointment of Home Office Minister Lynne against rises in child poverty. Featherstone as the overseas champion to lead on the UK’s international work. However, we are not just about giving our people a However, the truth is that we will not be able to Government who are more affordable. We are in make true progress on gender equality if we do not government to lay the foundations of a fairer and have more women in decision-making roles. The Home stronger society. At a time when women are on the Secretary will be talking to the Deputy Prime Minister verge of making up half the UK workforce, we are to ensure that the issue of women’s representation in working hard to address the obstacles they continue to the House of Commons is considered when we look at face at work. Within weeks of coming to power, we our constitutional reform agenda. In the mean time, asked the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Abersoch, to we have set a new aspiration that by the end of the look into ways of improving female representation on Parliament at least half of all new appointees made to the boards of listed companies. As many of you will the boards of public bodies will be women. Last know, his report, which the Government have welcomed, month we also published our proposals for increasing was published last month. We will engage with business access to elected office by disabled people. Disabled when considering his recommendations. Likewise, we people, many of whom are women, are dismally under- encourage regulators, investors and executive search represented in both Chambers. Under our plans, disabled firms to take forward those recommendations that fall people will have access to a fund to help them overcome to them. the barriers they face, which is just one part of a We have committed to extending the right to planned £1 million package aimed at improving their request flexible working to all employees—our aim access. We are currently consulting on our proposals, being to make flexible working practices a normal, and we hope to launch the scheme later in the year. everyday part of the modern workplace. We will also However, it is not just on elected positions where we promote a system of flexible parental leave that will are focusing our work. We want to work more closely help both parents strike an appropriate balance between with women and women’s organisations to help inform their childcare responsibilities and their careers. We government policy making, which is why we made the want to give parents the option to choose what works decision to bring the core functions of the Women’s best for them and we will launch a consultation on this National Commission within the Government Equalities shortly. Office and within government. I know that many 1247 International Women’s Day[LORDS] International Women’s Day 1248

[BARONESS VERMA] particularly the poor and the disabled, in response to noble Lords here today have been very closely involved the noble Baronesses, Lady Gould, Lady Scotland, with the WNC. I want to say to them that the work Lady Campbell of Surbiton, Lady Heyhoe-Flint, Lady and commitment of its former chairs and commissioners Jenkin, Lady Gardner, Lady Morgan of Ely, and Lady has been invaluable and much appreciated. However, Benjamin, an overarching theme has emerged from to achieve our goals, we must do so in partnership today’s debate, in particular that noble Lords have with men. I pay tribute to all of those men who have stipulated that, although progress has been made, shared our common goals and who help and support there is an awful lot that we have to do to get better women to fulfil their full potential, including noble representation in business, public and political life. To Lords who have participated in this debate. We want that end, I hope to reassure noble Lords that this advice to be closer to Ministers and to provide real Government are fully committed to ensuring that we influence on decisions that the Government take. More stay on course as best we can. I am sure that we will be importantly, we want there to be real democratic held to account at this Dispatch Box if we do not. accountability for that advice. That accountability can The noble Lord, Lord Sugar, the noble Baronesses, reside only with elected politicians. We will shortly be Lady Howe of Idlicote, Lady Heyhoe-Flint, Lady launching a consultation which will set out the details Crawley, and my noble friend Lord Sheikh, raised of our new approach. the theme of women in business and on boards. I I will now attempt to address some of the issues think that I mentioned and outlined it in my raised by noble Lords today. Noble Lords will have to presentation. I have been told that I have two minutes forgive me as my own scribbles are usually very unreadable, so I shall skip. so I am afraid I have some from the Box, but I will On DfID spending, we are proud to say that we start off by responding to the noble Baroness, Lady have supported what was an agreement in all three Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde. I absolutely agree with main political parties to make sure that 0.7 per cent is her. It is crucial that we do all that we can through our enshrined in law. We are determined to keep women work, here in the House and outside, to ensure that and girls at the heart of all the work that we do young girls and women today feel that they can fully internationally and at home. Some of the questions participate in our decision-making processes. The noble asked through the bilateral and multilateral reviews Baroness, Lady Royall, and I share so many common were because we genuinely want to focus on programmes areas. Both of us are desperate to ensure that the that are working well and want to make sure that we equality agenda is never let onto the backburner. The strengthen those programmes. We hope to give other noble Baroness made a point about my mentioning donor countries a blueprint to work from. the financial crisis. I had to do so because unfortunately I have been told that I have to sit down, so I shall it is what we have inherited. It is a backdrop that we do say this quickly. I have pledged to write to noble Lords not particularly feel very comfortable with but we are whose questions I have not answered. In conclusion, it having to deal with the crisis. I hope that noble Lords has been an extremely informative and well supported around the Chamber will agree that, unless we come debate. This is one of the most enjoyable debates we to this together, this crisis will not be resolved quickly have and it is one to which noble Lords always contribute or easily. so well. I should like to say a word about the impressive record of my noble friend Lady Trumpington during World War II at Bletchley Park. When I entered this 4.06 pm House, I was absolutely daunted to speak to my noble Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, I reiterate friend, but I have found, in the four and a half years I the Minister’s last point. It is one of the most enjoyable have been here, that my noble friend has provided me debates that we have annually. I seriously thank everyone with great insight and skill on how to deal with who has participated. It has been so stimulating, difficult customers. My noble friends Lady Ritchie knowledgeable and absolutely inspiring. I, too, offer and Lord Bates, the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, my congratulations to the six maiden speakers. Their and others, spoke about rape in conflict areas, and speeches were varied and powerful, and we certainly about Resolution 1325. The UK has intensified its look forward to hearing some more. I also congratulate efforts to secure improvements for women affected by the Minister who so competently tackled her daunting conflict. In December we worked closely with our task. It gets more and more difficult as each year partners at the Security Council to agree a strengthened passes and the number of subjects discussed widens. accountability mechanism to combat sexual violence The range of knowledge in this Chamber is in armed conflict. The UK’s action plan, which was phenomenal, whether it is about women seafarers—that jointly delivered on Resolution 1325 by the FCO, was a new debate that we had not had before but I MoD, and DfID, will be monitored jointly. As I said, I should be interested in having more discussions—business, find it difficult to read my writing. boards, politics or sport. It is fascinating how many The noble Baronesses, Lady Gould of Potternewton women are football supporters, including myself. Perhaps and Lady Royall of Blaisdon, talked about the casualties we should start to compete with the men who somehow of the cuts. I have dealt with that within my speech, think that it is their subject. We heard about trafficking, but we have protected healthcare and have put in violence against women, poverty, education and the additional resources to give social care extra money to vagaries of our political predecessors and women ensure that the benefactors predominantly will be campaigners. We commemorated some remarkable women. On the question about progress and the remaining women and organisations. Many speeches highlighted challenges and problems facing particular groups, the position of women and girls, disabled women and 1249 International Women’s Day[3 MARCH 2011] News Corporation/BSkyB Merger 1250 women journalists in the developing world and the of the Secretary of State. In other words, even if the issues of rape in conflict and conflict resolution. I proposed News Corp/Sky merger goes ahead, News could go on as I am sure that I have missed out an Corp’s shareholding in Sky News will remain the same awful lot of subjects. as at present. I always hope that after these debates those who The new company would have a 10-year carriage have not been in the Chamber will read the report of agreement and a seven-year renewable brand-licensing them. It is valuable for them and for all of us to follow agreement with the newly merged News Corp/Sky so through the points raised today. There is no question as to ensure its financial viability. Unlike the board to that we are united across the Chamber to further and which Sky News currently reports, the chairman would better the rights of women. How we do it may vary but be required to be an independent director. Unlike at the aim of us all is there. It only remains for me to beg present, the board would have a corporate governance leave to withdraw the Motion. and editorial committee to ensure compliance with the principles of editorial independence and integrity in Motion withdrawn. news reporting. For the first time, the requirement for the company to adhere to Ofcom’s broadcasting code would be enshrined in the new company’s articles of News Corporation/BSkyB Merger association. In short, the editorial independence of Sky News would be better protected than it would Statement have been, not only if Sky News had formed part of the buyout of Sky shares, but even than it is right now. 4.09 pm The principles of the arrangements are clear and Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, with leave of the set out in the proposed undertakings. There are still House I shall now repeat a Statement made in another some detailed provisions of carriage, brand licensing place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of and certain operational agreements that will need to State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. The be finalised, and the terms ensure that such agreements Statement is as follows. will need to be approved by me. In deciding whether or “I would like to make a Statement about News not to approve them, I will again take the advice of Corporation’s proposed acquisition of BSkyB. I would Ofcom and the OFT, as appropriate. The merger cannot, like to start by thanking both the OFT and Ofcom for of course, go ahead until I have been satisfied on all their detailed, thorough and independent analysis, these matters. which has been produced to a very challenging timescale. I also want to draw the House’s attention to the My decision today relates to the issue of plurality of issue of the long-term sustainability of these undertakings. news provision, and not competition or market power The OFT has said that the undertakings are likely to issues, which were ruled on by the EU Commission on be practically and financially viable in the short and 21 December 2010. medium term, but expressed concerns about whether Earlier this morning, I announced that the independent the undertakings would be viable over the longer term. media regulator, Ofcom, had advised me that undertakings It stated, however, that the appropriate timeframe in in lieu offered by News Corporation would address this market was for me to decide, with Ofcom’s advice. the plurality concerns that it had identified in its Ofcom has considered the impact of a 10-year report to me of 31 December 2010. I also announced carriage agreement in the context of the media industry that the OFT considered the undertakings to be practical and has expressed the view that in a rapidly changing and financially viable for up to 10 years. In light of media and technological environment, a carriage this independent advice, I am proposing to accept agreement of 10 years is a long-term measure. I agree such undertakings, instead of referring the matter to with its independent view of that given the difficulties the Competition Commission. of predicting with any certainty how the plurality As the Enterprise Act 2002 requires, I have today issues will develop over a longer timeframe. However, published these undertakings for public consultation. I will of course only reach a final conclusion on this For the sake of transparency, I have also published all and other aspects of the undertakings after the the advice that I have received from Ofcom and the consultation is complete. OFT, together with correspondence between myself and News Corporation, and a timeline of the process Consequently, on the basis of the independent advice that I have followed, including details of all the meetings I have received, I have concluded that a referral to the I have held. I hope that honourable Members will have Competition Commission would not be merited at time to study these undertakings during the formal this stage, and instead propose to consult on the consultation that will start today. However, it may undertakings in lieu, the final version of which has help if I outline the main points. also been placed in the Libraries of both Houses and on my department’s website. The undertakings would ensure that Sky News is spun-off as an independent public limited company. In line with the legislation, I am opening a consultation The shares in that company would be distributed period during which time all interested parties will be among the existing shareholders of BSkyB in line with able to express their views on the undertakings. Once I their existing shareholdings. News Corporation would have considered representations, I will reach a therefore retain a 39.1 per cent stake in the new decision on whether I still believe that the undertakings company, although it will not be allowed to increase should be accepted in lieu of a referral. If, after this shareholding for 10 years without the permission consultation, I am still of the view that the undertakings 1251 News Corporation/BSkyB Merger[LORDS] News Corporation/BSkyB Merger 1252

[BARONESS RAWLINGS] have before us to see whether we can be reassured that address the concerns about media plurality, I will they have been addressed. Unfortunately, many of the accept them and not refer this merger to the Competition earlier doubts remain, and I hope that the noble Commission. Baroness can reassure us on some of them today. For I would add that, quite separately to my consideration example, even if we take Sky News out of the equation, of this merger, I have carefully noted Ofcom’s point does not the BSkyB takeover still represent a concentration that there is a potential weakness in the current public of media power on a scale that would not be allowed interest test with respect to media plurality, namely anywhere else in the developed world—not even in the that it can only be applied when there is a commercial US? On the basis that News Corp’s share of the transaction to consider. This wider question is one national press circulation is estimated to increase to that I intend to consider in the context of the forthcoming more than 40 per cent by 2014, what are the implications review of communications regulation that I announced for cross-media dominance in the years to come? earlier this year. A major concern not answered by this deal is that Throughout this process I have been very aware of the strength of BSkyB’s financial dominance will allow the potential controversy surrounding this merger. it to bundle or cross-subsidise its newspaper output, Nothing is more precious to me than the free and potentially driving competitors out of the market. independent press for which this country is famous the What steps does the department intend to take to world over. In order to reassure the public about the ensure that that cannot happen? That is even more of way that this decision has been taken, I have sought a pressing issue with the development of internet news and published independent advice at every step of the and pay-to-view tablet initiatives, in which Murdoch is way, even when not required to do so by law. After taking the lead. Surely that underlines the fact that a careful consideration, I have followed that independent plurality of news outlets is no longer just about the big advice. TV news broadcasters and that the offering of Sky The result is that, if this deal goes ahead, Sky News News as a token sacrifice does not address the real will be able to continue its high-quality output with issue of concentration of media power. greater protections for its operational and editorial There is another reason why sacrificing Sky News independence than exist today. For those who have might not be the answer. The views of citizens and concerns about the plurality of news provision, I hope their access to information are shaped more widely that this will be a welcome step forward. As such, I than just by watching news programmes. The nature commend this Statement to the House”. of entertainment and cultural output matters just as That concludes the Statement. much, as does whether the programmes on offer have, for example, a concentration of American rather than UK origin. Those things matter in shaping how we see 4.18 pm our world. Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, I thank In our previous debate, several noble Lords spoke the Minister for this Statement. For those of us who of Rupert Murdoch as an honourable man, and I have have been watching the progress of the referral to no reason to doubt that, but where might this decision Ofcom with some interest, it does not come as a great and the promises made lead us in future? How can we surprise that we have received a Statement of this stop BSkyB falling into others’ hands in years to nature today. A cynic might say that it would be very come? The spectre of Russian oligarchs, or worse, surprising if the Christmas social engagements between cannot be discounted. How can we be sure that the the Camerons and the Murdoch clan, and the subsequent deal today will be watertight and stand the test of lobbying, did not have an outcome such as this, although time? I know that the noble Baroness will have no knowledge These decisions, once taken, are virtually impossible of that and I do not expect her to comment. to reverse. Surely the sensible thing to do is to err on In November last year we had an excellent debate the side of caution. Will the Minister comment on on the case for maintaining a broad plurality of media whether the decision could in due course be reversed if ownership tabled by my noble friend Lord Puttnam, it is subsequently shown not to be in the public interest? who regrettably cannot be with us today. What was In addition to those questions of principle regarding noticeable about that debate was the degree of well the deal, we have some specific questions about the informed consensus around the Chamber that the detail of Sky News governance. For example, who will proposed News Corp takeover of BSkyB would not appoint the Sky News board and chair? What steps serve the public interest. Indeed, I was struck by the would News Corp have to take if it wanted to change passion of noble Lords’ belief in the principle of its shareholdings or governance arrangements? Are media plurality as a central issue of our democracy—so there any constraints on who might buy the remaining much so that the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, made it shares in Sky News? Finally, what is to stop News clear that, for the Liberal Democrats, upholding the Corp in setting up a rival news station to Sky—let us principle was, give it a name picked at random, Fox News—and “a significant marker for our involvement in the coalition”—[Official thereby let Sky decline in its impact and status over Report, 4/11/10; col. 1784.] time? I hope to hear him reaffirming that fact this afternoon. The Minister set out today the short period of In preparing for the Statement, I have reread the consultation which will follow this announcement. debate and the many concerns expressed, and have We, too, plan to study the undertakings carefully and tried to measure them against the package that we consult widely before coming to a view on whether 1253 News Corporation/BSkyB Merger[3 MARCH 2011] News Corporation/BSkyB Merger 1254 this package is in the public interest. We will listen to Who from outside does the Minister believe will be the views of the regulator and to the other media investing in this new company, and will she confirm organisations which may be affected by the decision. that the undertakings that Mr Murdoch has given do At the end of the day, our decision will be made by not prevent him eventually taking back control of Sky applying the public interest test in the knowledge that News? Lastly, does she agree that this further concentration to get this decision wrong could have wide implications of powers—as the noble Baroness from the opposition for our democracy for many years to come. Front Bench was saying—on advertising and cross-subsidy will pose a danger to many other media companies in 4.24 pm this country? Is that really in the public interest? Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for those questions, and I will Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I am very pleased go through most of them. that my noble friend, Lord Fowler, asks these questions. Given our debate in the House initiated by the It gives me an opportunity to inform your Lordships’ noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, to which I replied, the House further, following the Statement. Opposition’s stance is no surprise, as it was clearly set I clarify yet again that this is not a final decision. out then. The noble Baroness started by voicing doubts The Secretary of State has announced that he is proposing about competition. This was settled by the EU to accept the undertakings offered by News Corporation. Commission on 21 December. There will now be a consultation period, which will On bundling, there is absolutely nothing new. If close on 21 March, after which the Secretary of State Mr Murdoch had wanted to bundle he could have will decide whether to approve the merger. Ofcom’s bundled a long time ago. He would have had an report on the proposed merger stated, and the Secretary opportunity before to bundle the 39 per cent control of State agreed, that: that he has, plus the Times and other newspapers, and “We consider that the revised proposed undertakings would obviously is not interested in bundling. address the plurality concerns identified in our report of 31 December On the control of ownership, the basis of the 2010”. undertakings is that News Corporation will not have On the question of who outside might bid for the control of Sky News; it will have only 39.1 per cent of shares, I am afraid I have absolutely no idea. No one the shares. The majority of the board, however, including has told me anything about who might buy. The figure the chairman, will now be independent. Should News quoted by the Secretary of State was that 65 per cent Corporation wish to acquire more shares in Sky News of Sky News’ income will come from Sky. We have no following the merger, it would have to get the Secretary idea about the rest. The concentration of power will of State’s consent to this for a period of 10 years be less because the new Sky News will not have a following the merger. Murdoch as chairman or on the board. The chairman The noble Baroness quite rightly raised questions and the board will be independently chosen. about future financial worries. The 10-year carriage agreement and the brand-licensing agreement underpin Lord Borrie: I shall not repeat the excellent points the undertakings and will ensure the viability of Sky made from the Front Bench by my noble friend Lady News. Both those agreements must be agreed by the Jones, but I shall follow some of the things that the Secretary of State, so their terms will be subject to noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said. In particular, great additional scrutiny. emphasis has been put in the Statement on the The Secretary of State has made clear throughout independence of Sky News and of the chairman and his dealings on this that he has been committed to a the directors. Who is going to appoint them? Will the fair, thorough and open process. I hope that the Statement Murdoch family surely not want some say in how the has made clear that he has not reached a final decision independent chairman and directors are appointed? I and will not do so until after the consultation period would welcome an answer on that. when all parties have had the chance to contribute. Bearing in mind some of the points made by the If any questions or points of detail remain that I noble Lord, Lord Fowler, not only do we all recall, I have not answered, I will, of course, write to the noble am sure, the failure of the so-called independent directors Baroness and put a copy of the answer in the Library of the Times, who were a somewhat useless set of with all the other documents. I am grateful for the people, but I remember, and I am sure many of us will, interest that noble Lords on the Back Benches will the so-called independent directors of the Observer, show on this matter, and I look forward to answering who were set up to put some kind of limit on the any of their questions. unreasonable power of the late Mr Tiny Rowland. The independent board is very much emphasised in this 4.28 pm Statement, but I have not yet understood how it will Lord Fowler: My Lords, is not the trouble with Mr be achieved, particularly if you have, as the Murdoch Murdoch’s assurances that, frankly, we have been family will have, a 39.1 per cent share. Is the Murdoch down that road before, and not very happily in the family going to take no responsibility and want no case of the Times newspapers, so will need to study power over the appointment of the independent directors? those assurances with very great care. Finally, how long is the arrangement to last? I As I understand it, the new company will be loss- understand the viability point about the 10 years. making, will have a 40 per cent News Corporation Perhaps I ought to have declared that some time ago I shareholding, and will rely for two-thirds of its income headed up the Office of Fair Trading for many years. I upon News Corporation. notice that it has usefully expressed some concern 1255 News Corporation/BSkyB Merger[LORDS] News Corporation/BSkyB Merger 1256

[LORD BORRIE] at this issue and have passed it, and that therefore we about the feasibility and viability of this arrangement do not need to worry about it. Looking at the faces and about whether it can last. We must all be concerned, and nods around this House, it is something that we as my noble friend Lady Jones indicated, about who should worry about. However, as the noble Baroness may purchase. It might be some other undesirable has rightly said, these undertakings are now going out person or group of persons whose viability and concern to consultation, and the devil, as always, will be in the one would want to check. detail. Various noble Lords have indicated their suspicion Baroness Rawlings: The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, about independent directors. I noticed the noble Lord, makes very valid points. He knows about independence Lord Rees-Mogg, grinning at the comment about the and Ofcom from having been chairman of the OFT. independent directors of the Times. I am not sure We either have to believe in this country that we have which way he was grinning, but he was certainly independent appointments or we do not. The way in grinning. which this country is run means that many bodies have independent board members and independent chairmen; Lord Rees-Mogg: I am not an independent director it is not government and the Murdoch family. of the Times and have no business connection with the Paragraph 3.3 of the paper states that the new chairman Times other than writing a column. will be independent. The noble Lord, Lord Borrie, mentioned 10 years. Lord Razzall: I understood that. Perhaps I should The Office of Fair Trading stated that the Sky News move on swiftly. There clearly is suspicion about the company, which was not part of News Corporation, role of independent directors. Various people have will be viable for at least 10 years. That is a long time in mentioned the Times and the Observer, but even going this market, and I remind the noble Lord that it is back to the takeover of the News Chronicle by the difficult to predict with certainty what the media world Daily Mail, the record was rather poor. Undoubtedly, and plurality will be like in that time. these undertakings will be looked at with huge scepticism. Apart from being very light on the issue of overall media power, both the Statement and the letter from Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, alas, I fear Ofcom are extremely light on how the new Sky News that there is quite a lot of scepticism on the part of a will be financed. My question for the noble Baroness number of your Lordships and concern about plurality. is: is it intended that all the money will be put up by I accept that an independent chairman will be an News Corporation for the next seven to 10 years? If improvement, but, by way of helping to reassure myself, so, will we have satisfactory undertakings that, despite I ask about the guarantee for 10 years that this sum—I the fact that it is retaining only 40 per cent of the believe it is 65 per cent—will be provided for the needs business, it will continue— of this independent organisation. Will it be available every year or will it be a lump sum? If it is provided on Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, this is an abuse a yearly basis, my concern is whether any condition of our procedure. Would the Whips step in to sort it might be attached—perhaps a delay in paying the out? sum. Might there be a way in which that could happen? Lord De Mauley: My Lords, questions are expected Baroness Rawlings: Understandably, there is a certain to be brief. amount of scepticism about some of the details. As I say, this is not a final decision; we are still consulting. Lord Razzall: My question is whether the financial The point about plurality came clearly from Ofcom. obligations to fund Sky News will be absolutely guaranteed Its conclusion was that, in the light of future technological developments in “we consider that the revised proposed undertakings would address the industry. the plurality concerns identified in our report of 31 December 2010”. Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, my noble friend At the moment, I cannot give the noble Baroness the Lord Razzall started off by asking about the merger details of how the money will be given. and how the House had expressed a contrary view. The whole point of debate is that people should be Lord Razzall: My Lords, as the noble Baroness allowed to express whatever view they wish. What we indicated, when we debated this issue in November, are looking at now are the reports from Ofcom and with the possible exception of my noble friend Lord others on how to advise the Secretary of State. The Lloyd-Webber there was an overwhelming feeling that Secretary of State is now putting the issue out to this merger should not be allowed to go through. further consultation. The overall power of News Corp Having read the Ofcom letter and having listened to will actually be lessened because it will no longer the Statement, my overall concern, which was expressed control Sky News. It is to be a separate body and thus from the other Benches, is that nowhere in the Statement more independent. or in the Ofcom letter is the question addressed of the On financial robustness, the 10-year carriage agreement overall media power that this organisation will have and the brand licensing agreement that underpin these following the BSkyB merger. That seems to be a huge undertakings will ensure that Sky News will be financially lacuna in the Statement and the Ofcom letter, which is viable. Both those agreements must eventually be dealt with simply by reference to the fact that the underpinned by the Secretary of State, so their terms European Union competition authorities have looked will be subject to additional scrutiny. 1257 News Corporation/BSkyB Merger[3 MARCH 2011] Forestry Commission 1258

Lord Kinnock: My Lords, my personal affection Is the Minister satisfied that there are sufficient guarantees and respect for the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, that News Corp will continue to fund Sky News make me accept from her that this is not a final properly, particularly considering the relentless forward decision. May I put it to her that if it does not bear march of new technology, which will necessitate close similarity to the final decision when it is made, considerable investment over future years? Just as a noble Lords across the House are prepared to be final thought, I have a feeling that the Telegraph must utterly astounded with delight and shocked to their be thinking that it scored an own goal today. roots? Can I also put it to her that what she has told us this afternoon means that Sky News will by owned by Baroness Rawlings: My noble friend Lady Bonham- the people and interests who own BSkyB, including Carter is worried about continuing openness. News 39 per cent by Murdoch interests? Does that not make Corporation shares in Sky News will be unchanged as the same mockery of independence that is evident a result of the merger, and the independence of Sky elsewhere in the Murdoch empire, including the Wall News will actually be increased. It has an independent Street Journal and our own Times in this country? Is it board and a new independent chairman, and we hope not clear that the Secretary of State has accepted this that they will keep the high quality. arrangement as a quid pro quo for allowing Mr Murdoch to take complete ownership of BSKyB, and is it not Lord Prescott: My Lords, this Statement, frankly, is evident that this is a handsome pay-off for the support largely about the price of shares and ownership of given by News International to the Conservative Party BSkyB, and little to do with democracy in our society. during the election? Is the Minister aware that the investigation into the Murdoch press on phone hacking has now been extended Baroness Rawlings: I cannot say anything about the to the Sunday Times. The argument that it was simply final decision that the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, has one paper and one rogue reporter is no longer true—a asked for. This is still open to consultation until a number of papers owned by the Murdoch press and a certain date, and it will be very interesting. The Secretary number of their employees have been involved in of State will then look at it all. There will be independent withholding evidence and illegal practices. Is she happy shareholdings. The Murdoch press will own 39 per to extend a major part of our television services to the cent, but the rest will be open to the public. It is a little Murdoch press? Will she consider extending the unfair of the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, to criticise consultation period until the criminal inquiries have the Secretary of State. He has made this absolutely been completed? clear right from the beginning. Everything is published and available in the Library—papers of every meeting Baroness Rawlings: The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, are available for scrutiny by anyone who wants to do brought this up in our debate on my noble friend Lord so. If people have been worried about anything at any Fowler’s Question the other day. He raises a very stage, he has always seen them. So I think he is being a serious point about the hacking, but I cannot address little tough. that at this moment in the debate. Lord Elton: My Lords, I have a brief question to ask my noble friend. As I understand it, the situation Forestry Commission is that the shareholding is limited to 39.1 per cent at the point of entry into this system, but we hear that Debate the Secretary of State will have to give permission if 4.48 pm further shares are to be brought in. Can my noble friend tell us on what grounds that permission would Moved By Lord Clark of Windermere be given, because that is a very important factor? To call attention to Her Majesty’s Government’s plans to dispose of the Forestry Commission estate; Baroness Rawlings: My noble friend Lord Elton is and to move for papers. absolutely right to say that it is 39.1 per cent, but I cannot give him any further details about further permissions because they are not in my briefing. Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, I spent a great deal of my political life being involved in forestry, Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I should like to and I made my maiden speech in the other place 41 follow up the question asked by the noble Baroness, years ago on the subject. I introduced the Private Lady Howe of Idlicote. What pressures can be exerted Member’s Bill that required the Forestry Commission by BSkyB for an accelerated reduction in the subsidy to move from simply producing timber to going to paid to Sky News over the coming years, thereby multipurpose forestry, and I also served for eight years reducing the quality of news output by Sky News? as chair of the Forestry Commission. Given that, I was not exactly happy with the Government’s proposals, Baroness Rawlings: The noble Lord, Lord Campbell- which I regarded as ill judged, to sell off the Forestry Savours, asks me about the subsidy to Sky News. I am Commission estate. However, I was thrilled and amazed not aware of any subsidy to Sky News as yet; and, if by the response of the British people. I did not expect there is a subsidy, I am sure it will be published for them to share the appreciation of trees and woodland everyone to see. as fully as I did. The fact that over half a million individuals have signed a petition against the Government’s Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: My Lords, proposal—the petition is still there; lapsed, but growing can I press the Minister on a concern of mine, which is each day—was symptomatic of the feeling of the about retaining the quality of journalism on Sky News? British people. I was quite frankly staggered that I 1259 Forestry Commission[LORDS] Forestry Commission 1260

[LORD CLARK OF WINDERMERE] public benefits and of doing so in a better way. That ended up addressing meetings of thousands of was an obligation that I felt we had to the taxpayer people, deep in our forests, who were objecting to the and to our customers as wood users. I was pleased, for Government’s proposals. example, to persuade Parliament to agree to a regulatory However, that is in the past. The Government, reform order that allowed the Forestry Commission, thankfully, saw the light, and they retreated. We are all as a government department, to do all sorts of grateful for that retreat, because it gives us an opportunity adventurous initiatives. We were allowed to form joint now, in a calmer atmosphere, to debate the long-term ventures with the private sector, and we have done so future of a long-term business. As the House knows, with effect. There is much more opportunity for us to we are talking about an industry that thinks in terms continue with that as we progress. While I am open of decades, as a minimum, and occasionally in terms about the way in which we go forward and how we of centuries. It is right to take stock and see where manage and utilise our assets in the state sector, I hope we are. that the Government will be as open as they look ahead with their proposals. Over a number of years, we in Britain have had a healthy partnership between the public sector and the We were all pleased—certainly on this side of the private sector in forestry. Twenty per cent is owned by House, along with the overwhelming majority of the the state and the remainder by the private sector. I British people, including 82 per cent of the Government’s think that this is about the right balance, and both own supporters—that the Secretary of State announced sectors receive support from the public finances. This on 17 February that they were dropping their wilder balance is right because the state can do some things proposals to sell off 85 per cent of the Forestry more easily than the private sector can. On access, for Commission estate. That was a vast amount, but there example, I remind noble Lords that the Forestry still remains the question of the 15 per cent. I hope Commission estate is the largest single provider of that the Minister can give us some reassurance about countryside access, with 40 million day visitors per that 15 per cent today. Is it still the Government’s firm year. I remind the House that under the CROW Act intention, after they receive the report from the committee almost all the freehold land is legally open for access of experts, to sell off that 15 per cent? Before the on foot, and that on almost all the land there is de Government throw back at me the fact that we did facto access on cycles for mountain biking and general that I should say, yes, we did. It makes sense to reshape recreation. Access is given wherever possible for horses your estate. But we sold about 2 per cent of the forest as well. This is much easier to provide where the land estate, a net sale, over 13 years. The Government are is being supported by the general public through taxation proposing to sell 15 per cent over four years. The effect than it might be for a private owner. I concede that will be dramatic in many parts of the country and it is straightaway, and it is one of my arguments for why clearly not what the British people wish. we need to retain a sizeable public sector ownership of I say this to the Minister. The Government may feel our forestry. that the protests and the protesters have gone away, The issue is not only access. In terms of biodiversity, but they have not—they are still there. The forests 26 per cent of the forestry estate is designated as SSSI; campaign network is having regular meetings because and of those sites, 98 per cent are designated as either it wants to hold the Government to account on this favourable or at an advanced stage of recovery. Forty-five issue, and it does not want the sale of the forestry per cent of the estate is within national parks or areas estate asset. of outstanding natural beauty. There are constraints on the production of timber, yet the Forestry Commission I shall conclude my remarks by asking the Minister estate still produces 60 per cent of all the timber a number of straightforward questions. The Government produced from woods and forests in this country. In intend to set up the panel of experts, which we appreciate addition to that, there is the storage of CO as well. will be widely drawn. Will he give us an assurance that 2 it will meet in public, that its records will be public and As for timber supply, although I have long argued that its members will be drawn from throughout the for multi-purpose forestry, it is also still very important regions of the country? to produce timber. What has not come out in debate on the Government’s proposal to sell off the Forestry On an organisational matter, the Forestry Commission Commission is how opposed most of the big users of is currently being pressurised by Defra to reorganise timber were to it. Modern timber-using industry needs its administrative structure. This would encompass a high level of capital investment and, usually, a great huge areas, stretching from the north-east of England deal of labour. It is imperative that those users of right through to the east coast. I firmly believed that timber are guaranteed a supply 365 days a year, every the way forward for the Forestry Commission was to year. The private sector, quite understandably, will not move to regional and local bases. I thought that the give those guarantees of supply. When timber prices Government shared that idea, with the big society. fall—and it is a highly volatile market—the private Will the Minister look at this and suggest to Defra sector simply withdraws timber from the market. That that it work with the Forestry Commission so that the makes sense to the private timber owner but not to the reorganisation is put on hold until we have the report? timber user in a highly capital-intensive, labour-intensive Defra has also put proposals to the Forestry industry. Commission that it should come up with a new vision. I accept that one cannot stand still. As chair of the I have seen a copy of that vision and, frankly, it is commission, I was for ever pushing the commission to disturbing. It mentions all sorts of proposals for the see if we could find better ways of meeting more commission that I agree with, but at no stage does it 1261 Forestry Commission[3 MARCH 2011] Forestry Commission 1262 mention any role for the Forestry Commission estate. we make future plans, because I am sure that the Will the Minister have a word with his Defra officials Minister will agree that the issue of access to woodlands on that issue? was at the heart of those clauses. This is a very short and rushed debate, in time We all know that access to the Forestry Commission allocated to the Opposition. There is sufficient interest estate facilitates not just walking but social interaction, in this topic within this House, where there is a great play, relaxation, discovery and enjoyment among all deal of knowledge, and I ask the Government to give backgrounds. Therefore, it is key that this access is us some time in government time so that the House maintained. As an avid walker, I can vouch for the fact can debate this issue and play its part in the forestry that walking has been proven to improve moods. It has debate. also been shown that it reduces the risk of certain cancers and strokes, and that it reduces diabetes and Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I respectfully remind so on. By cutting off access to one of England’s most noble Lords that Back-Bench contributions in this loved places to walk, we cut off a key way of exercising debate are limited to two minutes and that those two those benefits. minutes are already up when it says two minutes on Walking in a group can be a tonic. It is a sociable the clock. If any noble Lord exceeds that, he risks activity that can help improve mental health and overcome restricting my noble friend’s ability to respond to your feelings of isolation. The Ramblers’ research has found Lordships. that this benefit is valued by participants in group walks. Believe it or not, walking a mile burns around 5pm the same amount of calories as running a mile—although, of course, it takes longer—and can be so wonderfully The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, those who expect enjoyable. Improving public spaces and promoting a rational debate on this, as the noble Lord, Lord walking as an active means of transport will help to Clark, has mentioned, will be totally disappointed reduce health inequalities as well as combating climate that we are limited to two minutes, which was the change. decision of the Labour Party. The recent debate on It has been proven that walkers in the English forestry has neither been measured nor rational, which countryside spend over £6 billion a year, generating is in large part due to the Forestry Commission itself. income of over £2 billion and supporting a quarter of I ask my noble friend Lord Henley to justify the a million full-time jobs. I hope that my noble friend role of the Forestry Commission today. It is funded by will keep all these thoughts in mind when the Government the taxpayer and has always made a loss. With its huge are making any future plans that affect our heritage inbuilt advantages, it competes with the private sector and, most of all, the well-being of generations to for land in the production and sale of trees and timber come. Let us all make access a priority. Then, if we go yet, at the same time, it totally controls what the down to the woods today, or tomorrow, we will not be private sector can do, often through its overbureaucratic in for a big surprise. and costly regulations. The private sector must have an approved management plan to plant and manage woodlands in order to obtain grants from the Forestry 5.04 pm Commission, which are often delayed. That only adds Lord May of Oxford: My Lords, first, I thank the insult to injury for the private sector. noble Lord, Lord Clark, for creating this all-too-short I recall that when we privatised water my late friend debate. Secondly, I declare some interests: I was an Nicholas Ridley, Lord Ridley of Liddesdale, made the independent member of the Joint Nature Conservation bold decision to break up the river management authority Committee from its beginning and for several years; organisation and separate the regulator from the producer. and, more generally, I have a significant and international I hope that my noble friend will be equally bold in engagement in research in conservation biology. It is looking at the Forestry Commission. Who, for instance, against that background that I make just one substantial would support the idea that the Bank of England point. should not only be the Bank of England but should The UK is formally committed not just to preserving run high street banks? Why is the Forestry Commission biological diversity of plants, animals and ecosystems any different? It is not. It is acknowledged by everybody in the UK but also, going further, to restoring the that we need to plant more trees in the UK but there is lamentable and well documented declines and losses no way that those trees will be planted by the private seen over the past century. This necessarily requires sector unless it can be assured that it can produce co-ordinated overview of actions which would be greatly managed, sustainable woodland at a profitable price. impeded under the suggested free-for-all of privatising With the present structure of the Forestry Commission, the Forestry Commission estate. that will not happen. The Government’s plans are in this sense, to a degree, incompatible with commitments that successive 5.02 pm previous Governments have given. Furthermore—and, Baroness Benjamin: My Lords, I thank the noble admittedly, more speculatively—it is quite likely that Lord for securing this debate and declare an interest as the proposed privatisation will lead to significant the past president of the Ramblers. I was so delighted deforestation as land is cleared for property development to hear the news, here in this House, on Monday or agriculture, which could cut against our commitments 28 February that Clauses 17 to 19 and Schedule 7 had under climate change legislation. been withdrawn. Thank goodness that common sense In short, I am of the strong opinion that this is a prevailed. Now we can see the wood from the trees as thoroughly bad idea. 1263 Forestry Commission[LORDS] Forestry Commission 1264

5.06 pm I commend the poem to all who aspire to manage our forests accessibly, biodiversely and—if I may say Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, the future of so—conservatively. the state forests is clearly of great importance. I acknowledge the long-standing commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Clark, to it. I would be the first to 5.10 pm recognise, as a countryman, that forests and woodlands Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, that is a are much loved and treasured by our nation. I am splendid poem. proud to be wearing the Red Squirrel Survival Trust tie, a species dependent on forestry. Like the majority of the people of this country I Regrettably, the Government appeared not to be think that the Forestry Commission does an excellent explicit enough to reassure so many that the enhancement job in the management, stewardship and protection of of the state-owned forests was always the first priority our forests, and like the majority of people in this in any transfer of ownership. Following the recent country I want the public forests remaining in public appointment of a group to assess the regulations ownership to remain in public ownership. governing forestry and woodland management, I would I say to the noble Earl that the Forestry Commission expect people who have practical knowledge of the had absolutely nothing to do with the recent public countryside, and the timber industry in particular, to debate about forests. It was not allowed to say anything. be fully represented. I hope that all of us can unite in I think that it should have been able to speak out. I am co-ordinated and rigorous action to counter the all-too- very pleased that the Government are responsible for many alarming diseases among tree species. appointing the independent panel. I wish to ask some I also draw attention to the substantial amount of further questions to the many that have been asked. woodland which is managed privately. Of course, there Will the panel travel round the country, taking views is no ideological opposition to private ownership, as from people on the forests in which they live or about the noble Lord, Lord Clark, has said. Under the which they care, because forests are about not just previous Administration, 25,000 acres of Forestry woods and trees but communities as well? I live in a Commission land was sold. There are many examples very strong community. of flourishing private woodland. There are also many My next question concerning a conflict of interest examples of England’s community projects, and these has already been raised. I am somewhat perplexed are a continuing success. There are other public about this because in 1992 the Conservative Government organisations which also manage woodland. Epping created the authority and enterprise sides of the Forestry Forest, for instance, managed by the Corporation of Commission. Those are clearly demarcated with different London, provides a much cherished environment close offices and staff. In my view there is no conflict of to the capital. interest but I would like further clarification from the One of the most important issues that should have Minister on that. come out of the last few months of debate is the As we know, a consultation on jobs is going on with position of the Forestry Commission as both the the unions. I hope that that will cease until we know industry regulator and a major operator in that industry. exactly what the outcome of the independent panel This must at least be a matter for scrutiny. The unique will be. How many jobs are in dispute and are the arrangement of the Forestry Commission being the subject of consultation? Might those jobs be got rid of main commercial operator in the field and also regulator speedily? The Secretary of State has said that she of its competitors presents a clear conflict of interest. wants the Forestry Commission to do more in terms of biodiversity and access. Therefore, it would be foolish to have even fewer people working for the 5.08 pm Forestry Commission. The Lord Bishop of Liverpool: My Lords, the future of forests can be summarised by the ABC of accessibility, 5.12 pm biodiversity and conservation. Whatever plans emerge in the future, the public clearly want accessibility to be Lord Greaves: My Lords, this is a bit like Punch and a priority. Biodiversity has recently received more Judy—up you come, down you go, that’s the way to do attention from the Forestry Commission, but there are it. However, it is absolutely clear that the debate that those who believe—and I share this view—that more we have had over the past few months has been needs to be done to take us beyond the monocultural narrow, divisive and based on ill judged proposals. forest of conifers and spruces. That is not the way to do it, but thanks to the sensible The Secretary of State has emerged as a champion government decision that has been taken we now have of biodiversity at the recent international conference a real opportunity to have a broad-ranging, inclusive, in Japan. She needs to ensure greater biodiversity in constructive debate about the future of forests and our forests. We lecture the world about the evil effects woodlands in this country. However, it all depends on of deforestation. Therefore, we should set an example the panel of experts, how it is set up, who is on it and to the forest nations and adopt the highest principles their terms of reference. It has to be broadly based and and standards of conservation and sustainability. I am confident that that will happen. Its terms of The Liverpool poet Gerard Manley Hopkins, in an reference must be as wide as possible, not just about evocative poem, “Binsey Poplars”, laments: the future of the forestry estate but about the work of “O if we but knew what we do the forestry commissioners and the Forestry Commission When we delve or hew— in the widest sense, including the future of woodlands Hack and rack the growing green!”. and forests in this country. 1265 Forestry Commission[3 MARCH 2011] Forestry Commission 1266

My honourable friend Roger Williams pointed out 5.17 pm in the House of Commons debate yesterday that 80 per Lord Cameron of Dillington: My Lords, I declare an cent of the woods and forests in this country are interest as a farmer and woodland owner. It is clear private, of which 40 per cent are not managed properly that our woodlands are important to the people of the or not even managed at all. That must be the basis of UK. In some areas, the timber they produce can be a the whole debate but it must not under any circumstances vital part of the rural economy. The income forests be based on an assumption of disposal. We have to provide from shooting is also important in some areas. start with a clean sheet. As regards the terms of the Equally, as regards climate change, CO is locked up panel’s operation, it must be able to look outwards to 2 in timber, and if that timber goes into, say, housebuilding, the knowledge, expertise and wishes of the people. It it remains locked up. Also, wood that is used to create must be open and involve people throughout the country heat or energy is carbon-neutral. Woodland also hosts and do as much of its work as possible in public. I numerous species of flora and fauna. Woodland is an hope that it will hold a series of constructive seminars important part of our landscape and cultural heritage. around the country in which people can take part. We Finally, woodlands, because they contain all these have a real opportunity now to get away from the benefits, are a vital resource for access, and thus the oppositional debate that we have had towards an spiritual and physical health of our nation. inclusive project aimed at building a consensus for the future—not just for the next four, five or 10 years, but However, the real problem is that whatever use they one in which the Forestry Commission, the forestry are put to, woodlands require expensive management. commissioners and our woods and forests can go Of all the benefits that they bring, only timber and ahead on a basis of 50 years, because trees take quite a possibly sporting income are capable of paying for long time to grow. that management. The situation in the private sector— some 80 per cent of woodland cover—is even worse. The employment of woodland workers is not an allowable 5.15 pm business expense. It is the fiscal equivalent of employing Lord Grantchester: I shall celebrate two important a butler. It is true that one can possibly get a tax-free forests that are in my area, namely Delamere and income after a tree has grown for 50 years or so—or Cannock Chase, both not far from where I declare my rather one’s children can, which is not perhaps such an interests as a farmer, although the farm does not have inspiring motive—but when woodland is managed for any appreciable woodland. public benefit, we are entering the realms of charitable giving. The trouble is that in forestry, the tax system Delamere and Cannock Chase consist of 2,500 hectares does not recognise expenses incurred in producing of forest, wetlands, heathland and grassland including marketable or non-marketable goods internationally important bogs and sites of special scientific interest. They are multipurpose forests with The point is that we desperately need better and a high degree of public recreational use, providing an more focused management of our woodlands to provide impressive network of walking, cycling and horse all the outcomes that we clearly value. Please can the riding trails, and attracting around 1.25 million visitors new panel of inquiry look carefully at how we can per year. In addition, they host popular attractions—for better encourage proper woodland management? That example, outdoor concerts, one of which drew is the key to successful and multipurpose forestry in 15,000 people to Delamere over three nights and helped this country. boost the visitor economy, because all the local accommodation was booked up. Another example is 5.19 pm provided by Go Ape, which provides adventure activities Lord Eden of Winton: My Lords, it is great that that employ seven seasonal staff and remits surpluses thanks to the brave decision of the Secretary of State, of around £50,000 to the Forestry Commission. the forestry debate can now focus much more on Attention should now turn towards management management than on ownership. I follow the speech of and getting the best use out of what we have. It cannot the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, on that very point. happen without resources; and the 30p per annum About 50 years ago, I wrote a report for the Council that each of us contributes to maintaining the PFE of Europe on national parks, areas of outstanding represents tremendously good value for money. The natural beauty and sites of special scientific interest. proposed cut to 17p per annum per person and In the process of gleaning evidence for that report, it approximately 500 redundancies will not only impact was borne in on me how vitally important it is to be on management but affect many local communities. sensitive to the requirements of the forest when considering The best starting point for the newly announced their management. Forests and woodlands vary in expert panel should be to dust off the comprehensive type and size. One size does not fit all. Therefore, public consultation carried out by the previous management has to be acutely aware of their individual Administration. Here will be found ideas to reinforce and specialist needs. the priorities of the Forestry Commission, provide That leads me to comment with a word of caution social benefits to urban populations, and make a about the recent emphasis, which has been made in bigger contribution to the UK’s climate change strategy. some of our exchanges, on public access and recreation. The nation’s trees are under attack from pests and If that is overdone, it will destroy the very thing that diseases—red band needle blight, sudden oak death, we all want to preserve. It is incredible what damage bleeding canker of horse chestnut and pine lappet can be done by walking or trampling feet, whether moth. Research into these threats is woefully underfunded. human or horse, and even more if it is done in the Forest activity needs to be energised, not debilitated. name of motorsport or motorcycles. This is not what 1267 Forestry Commission[LORDS] Forestry Commission 1268

[LORD EDEN OF WINTON] local forests and woods in the north-east of England— forests are designed for. They are primarily designed Chopwell woods, Hamsterley forest and, a bit to my for biodiversity, for the production of timber, and as surprise, Kielder, which is a very large forest, described we now understand, for the valuable role they play in by the Minister as containing serried ranks of conifers. relation to climate change. So I hope that we will be I remember being dismayed in the past at some of the careful how we use our forests, and recognise that the very large ugly plantations in areas of outstanding greatest benefit is in experiencing the wonderful quiet, natural beauty. the silence, and the beauty. Let us preserve that. Huge changes have occurred in forestry policy over the years, thanks in no small measure to the work 5.21 pm done by my noble friend Lord Clark at the Forestry Baroness Quin: My Lords, I begin by expressing my Commission and by the commitment of the previous admiration to noble Lords all around the House for Government to make forests an amenity for all our managing to make so many telling points within the citizens, as well as being important in terms of timber rigorous confines of a two-minute deadline. I am production. That has been seen in Kielder, as elsewhere, fortunate in that I have slightly longer, but I none the with the many sites of special scientific interest and less share the frustration that noble Lords feel in habitats for endangered ospreys and the red squirrel. I having to deal with such important issues in such a congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, short time. on wearing his red squirrel tie. I do not know whether I congratulate my noble friend Lord Clark of he has headscarves or other items that might be more Windermere very much on initiating this debate, and suitable for women supporters of red squirrels, but on his starring role in recent forestry campaigns, which certainly the cause of the red squirrel is one that is have been so happily successful. My noble friend, dear to the hearts of many of us in this House. It through his previous work as chair of the Forestry reminds us of one of the most important aspects of Commission, and also throughout his long parliamentary this debate which is the promotion of biodiversity. career, has been an unmatched champion for our Indeed, that point has been made tellingly in some of countryside, for the rural economies of our country, the briefings sent to us by outside organisations, and for the natural environment. particularly the Royal Society for the Protection of As I was not able to be in the House on Monday Birds which speaks effectively on the importance of when the Public Bodies Bill was debated, I take this biodiversity. I commend the succinctness of the right opportunity to give my thanks to the Government for reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool in saying removing the forestry provisions from that legislation that our watchwords should be accessibility, biodiversity and to express my delight at the dramatic turnaround and conservation. These are important watchwords in their approach to their forestry policy. The when it comes to how to approach this debate. Government’s original proposals, as we know, unleashed I took the Minister to task at an earlier stage for his a tidal wave of public concern. Like others, I pay categorisation of forests and the categories of forest tribute to the various campaigns which immediately that Defra came up with in its original proposals. It is got under way. I recognise in particular the national wrong to try to oversimplify whether forests are petition organised by 38 Degrees, which was so commercial, heritage, mixed, or whatever. I believe astoundingly effective, but I recognise equally the local strongly that each forest has to be looked at on its own and regional campaigns up and down the country, merits and that we have to look at them not only for which had such an important influence on Members what they mean for timber production but for nature of Parliament, and indeed on public representatives conservation and wildlife, public access and amenities, throughout our country.The campaigns attracted celebrity and for what they contribute to the rural and regional support as well, and support from people of different economies in terms of tourism, timber production walks of life. My noble friend Lord Clark said that he and related issues. All forests should be considered in was, in a way, astonished at the scale of the reaction, that way and I hope that the Government will now yet there were reminders during the campaigns of how accept that as the way forward. long the history of public support for our forests is. Some looked back, for example, to the campaigns by While I disagreed with Ministers’ oversimplification Octavia Hill and John Stuart Mill in the 19th century of forest categories, I agreed with the point that he and to save Epping Forest. his colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, made in our debate on the Public Bodies Bill. It is a Certainly, if this was the big society in action, it was challenge to reconcile the valid different interests which very impressive, although ironically for the Government, seek to use our forests, whether ramblers, mentioned who see the big society as their cherished idea, in this by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, sports interests, case it was the big society standing up to and opposing wildlife interests, general tourism, and so on. They all what the Government were doing. The public certainly need to be reconciled within our overall international showed that they were passionate about the future of environmental commitments. our forests, and many noble Lords have expressed passion for our forests in the debates that we have had A number of issues were raised to which I hope the in this House. In considering the Public Bodies Bill Minister will respond. My noble friend Lord Clark and in the debate today, various forests around the mentioned the issue of the 15 per cent and I hope that country have been mentioned: the Forest of Dean, the the Minister will respond to that. On Monday, concern forests in the Lake District, and the forests of Delamere was expressed that repeated sales at 15 per cent could and Cannock Chase, which my noble friend Lord result in the serious whittling away of the public forest Grantchester mentioned. I share that passion for my estate. In response the Minister mentioned that a 1269 Forestry Commission[3 MARCH 2011] Forestry Commission 1270 substantial public forestry estate would be retained. In biodiversity and conservation. All these things cannot order to reassure people, particularly given the extent go together, so very difficult decisions have to be of public concern, a definition of what constitutes made. That is something that we will take into account substantial will need to be given, so I hope that the in any decision. Minister will respond to that. A lot has been said in the previous six months Questions have been asked about the composition about the future of the public forest estate, but a lot of of the panel and how it will operate. I echo those that has been based, dare I say it, on speculation concerns that it should operate in public and be as rather than fact. I say that having listened to some of inclusive as possible. That has to be the message that the speeches today, in particular to what was said by results and one of the lessons learnt from the experience the noble Lord, Lord Clark. Although he never seeks of the past two months. My noble friend Lady Royall to mislead the House, he talked about selling off the of Blaisdon mentioned concern about jobs. We are entire forestry estate, which was never set out by us. concerned about cuts in expenditure in terms of managing What we set out in our consultation document, which our forests in all our interests. has since been withdrawn, was very different indeed. It I have to conclude, and time is frustratingly short, might have helped if the noble Lord had read that and but we owe it to the public who have shown such studied it in detail. I refer back to the same point made strong feelings on this matter to come back to these by the noble Lord, Lord May, who was one of the issues many times and to be vigilant in the months signatories of that great letter that we received—or ahead. In the mean time I look forward to the Minister’s which came to the papers. I think the noble Lord reply and his answer to the points that have been made will find that he signed that letter before our so tellingly today. consultation document came out that has since been withdrawn. As my right honourable friend announced on 17 February—so we have now moved on—we have 5.29 pm ended that consultation on the public forest estate and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, withdrawn the forestry clauses from the Public Bodies Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Bill. So we can now have a rational debate, and I hope (Lord Henley): My Lords, I start with a brief comment that it will not be based on misinformation, or whatever. on the length of the debate. We are limited to one I accept, as the noble Lord, Lord Clark, put it, that hour, but that is, as my noble friend Lord Caithness the past few months have demonstrated just how said, entirely a matter for the Opposition. A request much people care about the forests of England and was put in that this debate could be held on some the rest of the country. The noble Lord referred to half other occasion in what is referred to as “government a million people responding to these things and signing time”. I am not so sure that there is such a thing as petitions. It is probably worth reminding him that government time in this House, but I am sure that the much the same happened on the subject of hunting usual channels will discuss this in due course. under the previous Government. I am not sure that I go back to the point made by the right reverend the previous Government took much notice of that, Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool when talking about but I seem to remember that the previous Prime Minister, his ABC of accessibility, biodiversity and conservation. when he wrote his memoirs, recognised that that might Those three are very important, but we should add have been one of his great mistakes. Half a million others. The first and most important one to remember here, half a million there—pretty soon we are talking is that the public forest estate, which covers some about big numbers. 18 per cent of English woodland, is there to produce timber. That was what it was set up for back in 1918, As the noble Lord said, we are now setting up an 1919 or whenever. Timber is its primary role, but it has independent panel on forestry that will consider the the other duties of accessibility, biodiversity and whole future direction of policy for England’s woods conservation as well. It also has a very important role and forests. I can assure the House that it will seek to against climate change as a storer of carbon, as my consult and advise broadly. It will go out and discuss noble friend Lord Eden mentioned. That, again, is a these matters with as many people as possible. It will role that we should remember. want to engage with as many people as possible who have already come in and consulted our department. I To return to the question of accessibility raised by do not want to go into all the details of who will be on the right reverend Prelate, one should underline—and the panel because I discussed that the other day, but I I was grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, for will mention again that, first and most importantly, it doing so—that there are competing demands in the will be independent. Secondly, it will have an independent whole accessibility question. This point came up in chairman and I hope that fairly shortly—whatever our debate on Monday on these matters, when the that might mean—we will be able to announce the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, raised the question of chairman of that panel and advise both Houses who motorsports. The noble Lord is a former Member for will be the other members. a Birmingham seat, so he has a great interest in motorsports, which make use of the public forest The other point I wish to make, again as I stressed estate—it is very important to them. Within accessibility, on Monday, is that although we want to keep that we have competing demands from those who want to panel fairly small and ensure that as many interests are work, those who want to ride and those who want to represented as possible, we hope that all those on the drive, whether in motor or horse-drawn vehicles. All of panel are there for their own individual expertise and those compete with each other and cannot use the knowledge, and not as representatives. We do not land at the same time, and all of them compete in want them there as delegates of particular bodies, but 1271 Forestry Commission[LORDS] Forestry Commission 1272

[LORD HENLEY] Lord, Lord Clark, and others, has done a valuable job to provide their expertise and knowledge. We hope since it was created in 1919. I appreciate that the noble that they will cover as wide a range as possible. Because Lord was not involved then; a whole host of different it is independent, we hope that the panel will go out commissioners and chairmen have done that job. and discuss with as many different bodies as possible We also accept that in the Forestry Commission we their concerns and views. It will be open to that panel, have a wealth of professional knowledge and experience being independent, to set up its own sub-committees of forestry matters. We all hold it in high regard, and it to bring in other people. As I made clear on Monday, will be important in facing the challenges of forestry we have already had a large number of different people diseases. The noble Lord and others will remember coming into the department to say they would like to that only the other day we dealt with the question of be on the panel or that they would like X or Y to be on sudden oak disease—more properly called Phytophthora it. It is a matter for us to appoint that panel, but it is ramorum—and the dangers that it is creating in the then for the panel to look at these things carefully. forestry estate, both public and private. We welcome Until we consider the panel’s advice, as my right all the expertise that we have in the Forestry Commission honourable friend made clear, we have suspended the but also in other Defra bodies, such as Fera, and all planned sale of 15 per cent of the public forest estates. the work that they are doing to deal with those challenges. Some sales have gone ahead since we came into On the questions raised by the noble Baroness, government last year—they were sales that had already Lady Royall, I also accept that the Forestry Commission been agreed by the previous Government, as the noble is facing challenges, as are all other parts of government Lord, Lord Clark, and others know full well. No and all other parts of what I might refer to as the decisions on the ones that we have suspended will be Defra family, as a result of the cuts that we have had to made until we have heard the views of the panel. make as a result of the position that we inherited from I want to make it quite clear that we have been the party opposite when we came into government. perfectly free to sell a certain amount of forestry land. There is no point the noble Baroness shaking her It has always been sold. The previous Administration, head, because she knows that if her party had still as I made clear and I reminded the noble Lord, Lord been in government, it would be having to make Clark, sold some 25,000 acres over the course of their reductions in public expenditure to deal with the deficit time in office. I should remind the House that they that we face. sold it without any safeguards at all other than those that were available under the CROW Act. We will The Forestry Commission is in the middle of a make sure that what we sell in future, should we sell serious retrenchment, but we still think that it can do anything post the panel’s advice, will have appropriate its job. It is in the middle of a period of major staff protections where necessary. consultation as a result of the spending review. In that consultation, it will discuss matters with the trade The 1967 Act allows that. The Act requires the unions, deal with their responses and formulate the Secretary of State to maintain a considerable land next steps, which will then be presented to staff. Until bank for the use of forestry. Currently, the Secretary the outcome of that consultation is known, I cannot of State owns some 258,000 hectares—approximately give any more detailed information. 550,000 or 600,000 acres—making her the largest landowner in England. That is a pretty large forestry I return to the panel and what it will be discussing, estate. Under the Act, she is obliged to maintain what because that is important. A number of subjects have is described as a large land bank that is a substantial been raised in the course of today’s debate, but the part of the forestry resources in England. panel might want to consider other matters. We want We know that forestry resources in England under to consider the challenge of increasing our woodland the current arrangement amount to approximately cover. We all know how small our woodland cover is 18 per cent of what there is. At what point the land and how little it has increased over the past 10 or so bank would cease to be “considerable”, having sold years—despite the fact that it was increasing before off 15 per cent, would obviously be a matter for that—and how large the woodland cover in some of interpretation of the Act. Lawyers would describe our fellow European countries is. what that amounted to as a question of fact and We also want to consider our ancient woodlands; I degree. I have written to the noble Lord, Lord Clark, was grateful for what the noble Lord, Lord May, and about that. No doubt in due course we can debate my noble kinsman Lord Eden said about their importance what the appropriate amount would be. Our judgment and the importance of biodiversity. We also want to of the Act is that with the sale of 15 per cent of the consider how access and recreation opportunities can estate, the Secretary of State would continue to own a be provided, but I remind the House how important it considerable land bank. I remind the House that all is that we look at the competing demands of access sales have been suspended as we await the outcome of and recreation against biodiversity and timber production. the panel. All those matters must be considered appropriate. On the Forestry Commission itself, I particularly I end by reassuring the House that the Government note what my noble friend Lord Caithness said about are committed to a sustainable future for our woods its possible conflict of roles—the fact that it is, as it and forests. Now is the time and opportunity to look were, like the Bank of England also running a high at how to do this and to tap into the obvious enthusiasm street bank. There are conflicts. The panel will also that we have discovered and which the noble Lord, consider the role of the commission in supporting and Lord Clark, mentioned, and the love of our forests, enhancing the delivery of forestry policy. I state for the which many have expressed. I look forward to seeing record that the Forestry Commission, under the noble the views of the independent panel in due course. 1273 Forestry Commission[3 MARCH 2011] Clothing Industry 1274

5.45 pm Fashion and clothing are sometimes seen as frivolous, or only of minority interest. This was brought home Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, this has been to me when I started asking noble Lords to join the a first-class debate that just emphasises the need for a APPG. As I frequently pointed out, however, many of further, longer, debate. I have been so impressed by your Lordships could be considered the ultimate ethical noble Lords for the way in which, in such a short fashionistas—wearing beautifully cut, high-quality tailored period, they have been able to make their cases so suits, timeless in style and lasting several years. This is clearly and succinctly, and I am full of admiration. I the antithesis of fast, disposable fashion, which makes thank the Minister and every Member who has it more likely to be sustainable and less likely to contributed for their efforts and time. I beg leave to contribute to the 30 per cent of textile-based landfill. withdraw the motion. Perhaps more seriously, many noble Lords have interest Motion withdrawn. in human rights, forced labour practices, environmental issues, international development, organic farming, Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No.2) corporate responsibility, animal welfare—et cetera, et Bill cetera—and can make substantial, well-informed contributions on this subject as it touches on all these First Reading areas. 5.45 pm Creating and making, selling and buying fashion and clothing clearly are not marginal activities. The The Bill was brought from the Commons, endorsed as a BFC estimated that in 2009 the UK fashion industry money Bill, and read a first time. directly contributed £20.9 billion to the UK economy. Clothing Industry: Ethical and Sustainable There are some 815,000 jobs directly arising from it. Fashion Fashion carries social and cultural meaning, and thus how we feel about clothes is subjective and prone Question for Short Debate to change. This has always been the case, but we seem to have reached a moment where the renewal of the 5.46 pm self—the demonstration of our sense of belonging—is Asked By Baroness Young of Hornsey achieved through overconsumption of clothing, the costs To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans of which include damaging agricultural practices; resource- they have to support and promote the ethical and intensive fibre, fabric and garment manufacturing; and sustainable fashion and clothing industry. the exploitation of garment workers and passive consumers who follow trends prescribed by the industry, and who Baroness Young of Hornsey: My Lords, I am delighted are ill informed about, and distanced from, the creative to open this debate this afternoon, especially with and labour practices attached to their clothes. such a wide-ranging group of illustrious speakers. The Government can make very useful interventions. timing could hardly have been better, following the The sustainable clothing action plan, a Defra initiative earlier debate on the challenges that women face— from the previous Government, was a key development challenges which include exploitative labour in the bringing together well known high-street brands to clothing supply chain. It also comes hot on the heels improve the sustainability performance of clothing of London Fashion Week, where the British Fashion across the supply chain. I am glad to hear that that is Council promoted Aesthetica, the ethical fashion showcase to continue. DfID’s responsible and accountable garments and forum. Also, importantly, it takes place during sector—RAGS—challenge fund works with the private Fairtrade Fortnight. sector and civil society to adopt ethical approaches to I have several interests to declare. I am an ambassador production in developing economies. for the Ethical Fashion Forum and for Made-By, which works with major fashion brands wishing to In what I believe is the first debate focused on the develop their ethical and sustainable standards. I have subject of ethical and sustainable fashion and clothing, received briefings by the Fairtrade Foundation—which I want to ask the Government several questions. The sent me this scarf to wear this afternoon—the Centre first, a question which arose from several of the discussions for Sustainable Fashion, Made-By, RITE, PETA, Anti- that I have had with various organisations, is on tax Slavery International and various individuals. I am breaks for green fashion businesses. It is quite costly to setting up an APPG on Ethics and Sustainability in convert goods to organic, Fairtrade or recycled products. Fashion, and hosting an event on the subject on A tax holiday or some form of rebate would encourage 16 March. The CSF and Made-By have generously more new and innovative companies to enter these agreed to provide creative and secretariat input to the sectors. Sir Harold Tillman, chair of the British Fashion group. Council and owner of Jaeger and Aquascutum, has There are too many individuals to thank for their said that incentivising eco-friendly design would make help on this subject, but I want to give particular sense for businesses and consumers across the fashion recognition to Jocelyn Whipple, Lucy Siegle, Livia sector. He asks why, if UK citizens can get tax breaks Firth and Orsola de Castro for their generous support on energy-efficient cars and other sustainable products, and encouragement. I was pretty ignorant at the beginning they cannot wear their values with pride and get tax of this journey in the early days, and they have educated breaks on ethical fashion. I ask the same question. me enormously. I would also like to thank Defra There is another point: the power of government officials and the Library for a very comprehensive and procurement processes. The Government are among hugely helpful briefing pack. the largest non-retail purchasers of clothes and textiles 1275 Clothing Industry[LORDS] Clothing Industry 1276

[BARONESS YOUNG OF HORNSEY] of this agreement are conditional on Uzbekistan ending in the country and spend £691 million on wearing this practice. I note that the honourable Member for apparel alone. With other textile-related expenditure, St Austell and Newquay has tabled an Early Day the Government spend a total of £1.186 billion a year Motion on this subject. on these items. However, ethical specifications for The recently formed Sustainable Apparel Coalition clothes are not a core requirement in public procurement. will work to lead the clothing industry towards developing Current standards only suggest that government procurers improved sustainable strategies. I hope that such initiatives can award extra points in the bidding process for will also help consumers to make informed choices on ethical production principles. This does not incentivise what they buy. There are no easy ways to address the bidders to meet higher ethical standards to win issue of product traceability due to its complexity, but government contracts. Sir Philip Green’s review of I would ask the Government what plans they have to government procurement in October 2010 neglected help the consumer who wishes to make ethical choices the potential that greater centralised purchasing could by working with the industry to improve traceability have on driving up ethical standards. Do the Government throughout the supply chain. have a strategy for using their potential to lead by Through diligent campaigning, PETA—People for example and to embed ethical and sustainable principles the Ethical Treatment of Animals—has helped to in their procurement processes? ensure that items of regimental apparel have been All political parties are committed to setting up replaced by synthetic material. There remains the issue the supermarkets adjudicator to investigate where of the Queen’s Guards caps. I understand that they are supermarkets are using their purchasing power to still made from the pelt of Canadian bears which are treat suppliers unfairly.There are clearly many similarities treated cruelly in order to produce this material. Following between the food and fashion retail sectors, and many a meeting last year, there has been some progress, and of the practices that lead to unfair treatment will be there is now an agreement to develop more refined common to both. As they have for the food retail samples to test with the regiments that wear the ceremonial sector, will the Government commit at least to investigate caps. That process seems slow and an update would be the extent of these practices, and their impact on helpful. ethical clothing production, to establish whether the Finally, for those of us who have occasion to wear remit of the supermarkets adjudicator should be extended ceremonial robes, I understand that the fur trimmings to cover fashion retailers as well? have been switched from ermine to rabbit. But that is Cotton is a recurring motif throughout this subject. still fur. I know that although many Members of your Cotton growing is acknowledged as an opportunity Lordships’ House—like the overwhelming majority of for income generation, particularly for farmers from Britons: 95 per cent, according to one poll—would developing counties. But there are two key issues that not dream of wearing fur coats or any other fur need to be addressed. The first is that DfID should garments, some may not question wearing those wonderful recognise the developmental and environmental benefits red robes with the fur attached. A representative from of organic cotton production and fund projects to Parliament has informed PETA that Peers can choose develop this sector. Secondly, and very importantly, new robes, manufactured by Ede & Ravenscroft, which unfair subsidies from the EU and the USA create contain only synthetic fur, therefore making it very problems for producers in developing countries. Rich easy to make the humane decision to wear a guaranteed countries, including the US and those in the EU, have cruelty-free faux fur robe. subsidised their cotton farmers by $47 billion in the past 10 years. West African cotton farmers, who are among the poorest in the world, are forced to try to 5.57 pm compete on a global market against this subsidised Lord Haskel: My Lords, I congratulate the noble cotton. The Fairtrade Foundation is campaigning and Baroness not only on securing this debate but on the its supporters are lobbying the UK Government and work that she has done in support of ethical clothing the EU to drop their subsidies and to isolate the US on over many years. She is absolutely right to support this unfair practice. Defra has already indicated its ethical clothing. Ethical consumerism and sustainability opposition to trade-distorting cotton subsidies. How in the textile industry is something that we should all does the department intend to demonstrate that it is support. As she indicated, it is an issue which gets seeking to influence directly the EU Commission’s support from some of the big players in the industry—for proposals on the future of cotton subsidies, or has it example, Levi Strauss; the Government, with their begun to build the necessary coalition among member sustainable clothing map; and ethical retailers such as states and MEPs to end this subsidy? Marks & Spencer. But that support is often expressed On the other hand, we have the absolutely deplorable more in word than in deed. In addition, although the situation in Uzbekistan where the Government force support passionate, it is also fragmented and children from the age of 11 to harvest cotton from uncoordinated. September to November every year. In January 2011, The reason is that this idea has many powerful the Council of the European Union announced that it forces and interests ranged against it. Thanks to the had agreed changes to the EU-Uzbekistan Partnership Government’s failure to give us any kind of hope for and Cooperation Agreement protocol with Uzbekistan growth, the consumer of fashion has to grapple with to extend the provisions of this PCA to the trade in increased VAT, higher fuel and food prices and concerns textiles. These have yet to be approved by the European about employment, with little hope of the return to Parliament. This is an opportunity to call on the better times. Indeed, earlier this week the Governor of Parliament at the very least to ensure that the provisions the Bank of England told a committee in the other 1277 Clothing Industry[3 MARCH 2011] Clothing Industry 1278 place that the good times may never return. These us. When we talk about the clothing industry and conditions mean that price, speed, turnover and fashion, it is something where Britain has a considerable competition must take priority in the fashion industry. history. Indeed, the authority of this House is the Rectitude and reputation take a back seat; and thanks Mace that rests upon the Woolsack. We have been to the attitude of our rescued banks, so does planning dealing in textiles for just about as long as there has and investment for the longer term. been an organised Britain, and we started the industrial What is to be done? First, the Government have to revolution with wool until cotton took over. We have a get their act together and produce an overall green history of great production lines. However, we also set strategy for industry, a strategy that all can support. the pattern whereby every time you want to industrialise Until now, we have had only warm words. or get into something, you go into textiles. As the Environmentally friendly clothing and its disposal must noble Baroness pointed out, that textile is usually be part of that strategy, and so must sustainable cotton. clothing. In Britain we have all the ingredients for this: As we look at the stance taken towards industrialisation, textile design, textile technology and environmental we can see that it mirrors what we went through: bad technology. We even have fabrics that purify the air labour conditions, overexploitation and no environmental around them. All this needs is to be brought together consideration. The first time we polluted our rivers, we as part of our green business strategy. Perhaps it could did it with dyes on a mass scale. Mining might have be part of the platform of the Technology Strategy challenged that, but streams in the north of England Board, perhaps as one of the new technology and that turned different colours as dyes were used is innovation centres. After all, with increased transport definitely something that can be traced back to the costs, rising raw material prices and rising wages in textile industry. It goes back to when we produced Asia, some manufacturing is coming back to other virtually all the textiles in the world, so we have a great parts of the European Union, so why not here, where deal of experience of what happens. there is very high consumption? Less disposable and We also know, thanks to the work of many people more sustainable clothing has the makings of a stable who are involved in this, that taking your workers and industry which can produce many jobs. driving them into the ground is not the best way to get The talent is here. The Minister does not have to go the best out of them. Sir Robert Peel, the father of the far to see it on display every summer at the Treasury, Prime Minister of that name, brought in the first Act where environmentally friendly textiles are enthusiastically about the treatment of workers and their hours and exhibited. For the past dozen years, the Textile Institute, conditions. This might be an odd thing to ask a of which I have the honour of being a past president, Conservative Minister, but are this current Government has organised an exhibition of the work of the best going to help in setting up organised labour and students from our leading colleges. All the buyers encouraging how this can be done to get the best out come because they like the idea of going to the Treasury, of the labour force, and how to make things not so or perhaps the attraction is that they get to have a cup exploitative yet more efficient? This is probably something of tea on your Lordships’ Terrace with me. But our that comes through in much of what the noble Baroness best students are certainly learning about green and said. I think I got quite a lot of the same briefing—she sustainable fashion, so why is it not part of the broader handled it very well and I will not repeat it. If we are curriculum? As the noble Baroness, Lady Young, going to make sure that the workers in these overseas suggested, possibly the most environmentally friendly industries are better treated, making sure that the clothing with the least waste is made here—it is made textiles and the product we consume here are valued is to measure. And what about Government procurement, a good first step—making sure that you invest in these as the noble Baroness suggested? people to get a better return. The technology needed Changing our perceptions and our culture is difficult. to enter this industry tends to be at the lower end. The What we can all do, including the Government, is noble Lord, Lord Haskel, has said there are higher-tech recognise the need for change and recognise the social, solutions, but the entrance level—which I believe is economic, scientific and commercial pressures that mostly what the noble Baroness was talking about—tends make that change necessary, and to acknowledge it to be fairly low-tech, or yesterday’s tech. Can the and make it part of our overall vision for a sustainable Government tell us what they are doing to encourage and green future. Ranged against this is a growing those employers and those states that are involved to scepticism about climate change. Recently I returned represent and cherish these people? from a visit to the United States, and unfortunately that scepticism is particularly apparent there. But you I got a great deal of ribbing in my party when it was never know. The noble Baroness, Lady Young,and her heard that I had to talk about fashion, although not cause may get lucky. My local FE college runs an primarily from those who are here, it has to be said. excellent catering course. For many years it was hard Fashion is a driver of consumption in this country. to fill, but then a celebrity chef came along. Now even When we talk about ethical fashion, we are talking the enlarged course is oversubscribed. So I would say about getting away from throwaway fashion; or, if we to the noble Baroness: keep plugging away, because are going to throw it away, about how we recycle. the future is on your side. To the Minister I would say: Relying on landfill, as has been pointed out before, is a help make it happen, and make it happen here. ridiculous state of affairs when you have to export it all around the world, with huge costs in transport. How are we going to get out of that? For instance, are 6.03 pm we going to encourage, as the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, Lord Addington: My Lords, I congratulate the noble has suggested, more home-produced textiles, which Baroness, Lady Young, on bringing this subject before will basically mean wool? This is something for which 1279 Clothing Industry[LORDS] Clothing Industry 1280

[LORD ADDINGTON] One of the greatest successes of the Ethical Fashion the Government must encourage research and Forum has been its work to promote market access in development. Our universities, which now have a slightly the developing world. We should do everything to more secure financial situation, might well have to support individuals in the developing world to export take this on. Will the Government tell us exactly how their unique prints, such as batik and kente, to a wider much support is going into that? Fashion itself has a global audience. In India, the forum supports a fair moral responsibility to make sure that it encourages trade initiative that employs 800 women, all of whom not merely consumption but consumption done on a are shareholders in the company. This project also civilised basis—that is, one in which you are encouraging provides access to schooling for more than 1,000 local people who are being treated well to produce it, and children and supports healthcare provision. The forum one where there is not abuse and throwing away. also supports initiatives in Kenya and Uganda. I have That is far too many questions for a speech of a personal affinity with these nations, as I was born in under five minutes, but I encourage the noble Lord to Kenya and spent my childhood in Uganda. The EFF answer this in the sprit in which this subject has been supports the Crochet Sisters initiative, which helps raised today—as an all encompassing global industry, impoverished women in Kenya by providing them in which we are players. with food, shelter, training and schooling. The forum supports 500 refugee women in Uganda to sell the 6.08 pm jewellery that they make at minimal cost from recycled materials. Lord Sheikh: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for securing this debate and for an Many of the forum’s initiatives have an educational excellent speech. The noble Baroness is an expert on element. This is particularly encouraging as education cultural matters who has enjoyed a successful career in has been repeatedly proven to be one of the main both the arts and academia. factors in improving the fortunes of poor people. I Promoting ethics in fashion is one of the biggest also welcome the efforts of the Ethical Trading Initiative challenges facing the industry. Due to our own success to promote good labour standards for workers as and leadership in this field, I thought it best to begin declared by the International Labour Organisation. my contribution with a few words on the British Members of the initiative adopt a code of conduct fashion industry. London is one of the key fashion relating to decent wages and working conditions that capitals in the world. According to the British Fashion they expect their suppliers to honour. Council, designers and retailers spent approximately £13 million on shows during London Fashion Week The number of reputable companies selling garments last year. The fashion industry makes a contribution made by exploited workers is nothing short of a of £21 billion to the British economy, which makes it disgrace. One of the most memorable cases of exploitation the country’s 15th largest sector. to be disclosed in the fashion industry was the revelation Garments are said to account for 5 per cent of that Levi Strauss was using Chinese prisoners to consumer expenditure in Britain. It has been estimated manufacture its goods in Saipan. Although this came that Britain spends £46 billion per year on imported to light almost 20 years ago, cases of exploitation are clothing. The civil unrest in north Africa, Egypt in still prevalent today. particular, has slowed the supply of textile products to As someone who cares about humanitarian issues, I the UK, thus affecting a number of leading British feel strongly about the exploitation of children in retailers, including Marks & Spencer and Debenhams. certain countries where children are employed to work These recent events can perhaps serve as a catalyst for in clothing and other industries in unhealthy conditions retailers to look for more suppliers based in Britain. for a pittance. The challenges facing companies as a This will have the added benefit of boosting the UK result of the current economic climate must not be textile manufacturing base. Clothing companies have used as an excuse to exploit vulnerable workers in the warned that the price of garments will increase due to retail industry. We live in an increasingly globalised the rising cost of cotton, which has risen by 150 per market where businesses are forced to compete for an cent since the beginning of 2010. increased number of exports. With our prestige in this industry comes social responsibility. Ethical fashion practices will broaden Increased competition coupled with the demands opportunities and improve the standard of living for of the fashion industry has led to a sharp rise in millions of citizens in the developing world. The low subcontracting. This practice allows manufacturers to cost of producing garments overseas is to be welcomed, make substantial savings. A key factor in successfully but should not be at the expense of decent working ending the exploitation of workers is those workers conditions. I wholeheartedly support the important being made aware of their rights. Quite often, many work of the Ethical Fashion Forum in seeking to workers in the developing world have experienced only improve working conditions in the fashion industry. poor conditions, to the extent that they do not even One of the key aims of the Forum is poverty reduction. realise that they are victims of exploitation. The efforts This is a subject that is very close to my heart. The of groups such as Women Working Worldwide, an global fashion industry is said to generate profits of organisation that seeks to ensure that workers in $1 trillion each year. However, the working conditions international supply chains are informed of their rights, and salaries of those who contribute to the success of are crucial to achieving this aim. I would be grateful if the industry are a huge cause for concern. Many who the Minister could inform your Lordships’ House work in the fashion industry are on frightfully low about any plans that Her Majesty’s Government have wages. to support such measures. 1281 Clothing Industry[3 MARCH 2011] Clothing Industry 1282

The politics of delivering ethical standards in the sadly, we have seen the complete migration of the fashion industry are complex and rife with accusations textile industry to areas such as the Far East and other of hypocrisy. Certain impoverished nations like Haiti continents. have received vast amounts of cheap clothing from generous western countries—in Haiti’s case, following Over the years, the technology required to produce its devastating earthquake. However, this generosity various fabrics has greatly advanced, allowing flexibility has had the adverse effect of competing with the and speedy delivery for garment manufacturers. native clothing industry. Even with the best of intentions, Regretfully, those responsible for the production of it is important that developed nations are mindful of raw materials seem to have focused on the low labour-cost creating instances like that in Haiti. territories of the world. I assume that the sensible fabric manufacturers do not use child labour and do We have a moral duty to work towards achieving not exploit slavery or all of that stuff. ethical standards in the global fashion industry. The majority of workers in this sector are females. Therefore, The retail trade as we know it today seems to rely success here will have a positive impact on many solely on cheap imports. Compared with the past, supranational programmes, including, most importantly, when a young woman’s decision to buy a dress took reaching our targets under the millennium development perhaps a couple of weeks to build up to, bearing in goals mind the large financial commitment, by today’s standards I end by saying that I was recently a member of the the price of clothing has tumbled—so much so that a parliamentary delegation to Sri Lanka, where we were dress that once represented a week’s wages now costs taken to a factory belonging to Brandix, which makes the equivalent of a round of drinks on a Saturday garments for Marks & Spencer. The factory was eco- night. Because of that, demand has gone up tremendously, friendly, the working conditions were excellent and the which in turn has created an appetite for more and staff were very well paid. Such a factory is a role more designs, so there is now a continuous flow of model for others to emulate. new products through the stores. I believe this has created, in effect, a kind of “buy weekly” mentality whereby the old traditional autumn, winter and spring 6.18 pm collections seem to have gone by the wayside, particularly Lord Sugar: My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the with the low-cost stuff. noble Baroness, Lady Young, for bringing this debate As a result, it is fair to say that we have lost the to the House, but I will quickly follow that with an manufacturing industry for high-volume production apology. I have perhaps not interpreted the topic in in this country. We seriously need to recognise this exactly the way she wanted it to be debated today. fact. What can we do to re-engage in that very lucrative Many of the speakers so far have followed the course market? I believe that the secret lies with encouraging of ethics, child labour and all that type of stuff, which young people who are fashion-orientated to be trained of course are serious issues. I, however, have picked so that they are allowed to express their artistic talent the fashion side of the question, to try to address in a way that translates into locally-produced finished something more positive and to see how we can move product. forward in this country in trying to promote some resurgence in that industry. The noble Baroness, Lady Young,referred to Sir Philip I would add that child labour is not new. As a point Green. I think the point being made was that his of comfort, I would say that most of the retailers in report emphasised pushing prices down, which perhaps this country are now fully aware that they should not implies that we would be going to low-cost manufacturing support suppliers of anything, be it textiles or electronic areas. On the other side of the coin—this is similar to goods, if it is produced in a factory that employs child the involvement of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, labour. I know that in my own factories and with with her colleges—Sir Philip Green founded his subcontractors abroad, to be perfectly blunt and frank fashion retail academy in 2006. That currently houses about it, this was something that we never considered; 550 students, and while he has done a tremendous job we just asked the factory to make stuff for us, and it in achieving some results, such as passing 65 per cent was only when the issue was brought to our attention of his students through to full-time work placements, that we sent our own inspectors there to ensure that most of those places are on the retail side or in the they were compliant and did not use child labour. I buying department. A very small proportion has gone feel that most sensible companies in this country comply into actual manufacturing. with that, so personally I am not too bothered any I therefore suggest that the Government start to more. fund what I would call incubator factories. There are I shall now get on to something that might bore so many empty buildings and premises in this country. your Lordships a little, because it is off the noble The Government could assist in kitting out those Baroness’s topic. It goes like this. I was brought up in factories with a central core of machinery and facilities Hackney, an area that was a hive of activity for the so that around the periphery of the factory floor there garment industry. Indeed, my father, mother and siblings could be many silos where young designers can come all worked in garment factories. My father was a tailor in and do their bit, exploiting the facilities in the and my mother worked as something called a felling factory without having to invest themselves. That facility hand, which might mean something to your Lordships, would also provide employment for those who can while my elder brother and sisters were machinists. gain skills. Not that we are all going to be fashion These types of jobs supported many families in the designers, but there is a need for pattern cutters, for East End of London back in the 1950s and 1960s but, example, and for machinists. Where will they learn 1283 Clothing Industry[LORDS] Clothing Industry 1284

[LORD SUGAR] hard work, she is known as a chic designer label who how to do that and get their experience? Only on the happens to be green, but not principally as a green factory floor, if they are helping in those peripheral designer. She says herself that her customers like her factories. clothes, how they look and fit, and see their being I remind noble Lords that the backbone of the sustainable as an added bonus. country’s economy is made up of SMEs that employ However, Stella McCartney is, in anyone’s estimation, from two to 10 people. That is an amazing statistic, as a maker of designer clothes on the highest level. What I am sure most of us would wrongly assume that the of the manufacture of cheaper clothes? It is well giant companies and the ones that employ most of the known that many outlets in the UK have as their working population. Picture a scenario in which a sources factories in countries where conditions are young designer is able to run a workshop—one of squalid, hours are long and pay is as low as it can get. those silos that I suggested—and employ, say, five This ensures that a dress can cost £10 and a T-shirt £2. people including assemblers and a salesperson. There Human nature being what it is, it is hard to see how is a good market to sell to independent retailers, buyers can be turned from the desire for very cheap specialist shops or market stalls, if you like, not to clothes simply on the grounds that some part of the mention online. One does not have to produce in the world is being turned into a desert, or some group of thousands to start a business. From those small acorns, people they have never seen is being deprived of health. mighty oak trees might grow. According to the Business of Fashion’s comment One such example is a young man I came across a and analysis section, the demand for cheap cashmere few years ago. He was an alteration hand working in from the growing Gobi desert has created an the menswear department of a department store. environmental disaster, while increasing herds of goats Encouraged by me, he took the leap to start his own graze away every bit of green that is left. But if the business and make men’s suits. I made sure that I was demand for cashmere slows down, what becomes of wearing one of his suits today. With my help and the goatherds who tend their animals? Do they lose several referrals, he is now in a fair way of business their jobs and their ability to support their families? and employs five people. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, has referred to Realistically, not every young person is blessed with cotton production. Cotton provides much of the world’s the brain to become an accountant, doctor or lawyer. fabrics, but growing it and treating the fabric that is its It is those forgotten young people, who perhaps do not end product uses chemicals that harm the environment excel academically but do have a talent for fashion and and are dangerous to the farmers who produce it. design, who we could offer a future to. This country is Hazardous chemicals used in the textile industry are known for producing some great fashion designers. lead, nickel, chromium IV, aryl amines, phthalates and The Government need to engage with people like formaldehyde. Cotton farmers face other problems. Sir Phillip Green and the noble Baroness, Lady Young, We are in Fairtrade Fortnight, and the Fairtrade and try to fund these incubator factories that I have Foundation is campaigning and lobbying the Government suggested. and the European Union to drop the subsidies paid to cotton farmers in European Union countries and the 6.26 pm United States. While the price of cotton has dropped Baroness Rendell of Babergh: My Lords, I, too, by 75 per cent, largely through western subsidies, west congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Young, on African cotton farmers are forced to compete globally instituting this debate on a subject that is both unusual against this subsidised cotton and as a result are and highly topical, and for giving your Lordships’ unable to make a living and are leaving the industry in House the opportunity to examine matters that are so droves. relevant in the present century. Her Majesty’s Government are among the largest Like my noble friend Lord Sugar, I will perhaps non-retail buyers of clothes and textiles in this country. refer to fashion itself as much as the working conditions They should therefore lead by example, but ethical and environmental issues. Ask anyone who likes fashion, standards are not a principal requirement for government keeping up with trends and finding flattering and purchasing. This is regulated largely by the buying elegant design on all or any price level, and they will standards for textiles that exclude local government react to the term “ethical fashion” by describing the and the NHS. Does the Minister agree that a better kind of clothes worn by the Bohemians of the 1960s system is required so that the Government can accurately and 1970s: hippy fashion, trailing skirts, dangling assess the cost of buying ethically sourced textiles and beads, frayed hems. This is still worn, particularly at make decisions based on this? pop festivals, but modern ethical fashion has left it Other retailers have recognised that purchasers want behind. to wear their clothes with a clear conscience. A few That this hippy style might evolve and be transmuted years ago, the deriding and insulting in the street of into desirable and much sought after clothing would women wearing fur coats resulted if not in a ban than have been inconceivable to wearers of cheesecloth in in considerably reducing the number of fur coats that 1970. That a designer of the stature of Stella McCartney were worn and brought about a rise in the fashion for might be producing haute couture and only producing wearing faux fur. This kind of treatment is not to be it would have looked like a mistake on her part, not recommended; there are other more civilised and the total success it has proved. She is famous for appropriately ethical ways of changing people’s minds, taking a stand against cruelty to animals, using no fur and other retailers have recognised that purchasers or even leather, and now, thanks to determination and want to wear their clothes with a clear conscience. 1285 Clothing Industry[3 MARCH 2011] Clothing Industry 1286

A company based in London is Wall of Notting I should declare another interest in that my son is a Hill. It has the same ethical principles as Stella McCartney member of the small but extremely effective team that but its clothes are far more modestly priced and are makes up the Centre for Sustainable Fashion at the accountable and sustainable in the best possible ways. London College of Fashion, which has been mentioned Certainly, it uses fur and it uses alpaca from Peru but by the noble Baroness, Lady Young. I am indebted to it uses only the hides of animals that have died a him and his colleague Dr Kate Fletcher for useful natural death. Wall, by its nature, is unlikely to bid for briefing for this debate. As a result of taking on that a government contract but it sets an example that briefing, I may, rather like my noble friend Lord could be a standard for companies bidding to win Sugar, go slightly off-piste in terms of the way that this government contracts. Wall has strong connections debate might have been expected to develop. I hope with Peru, where many of its products and the people that your Lordships will forgive me. who work for it come from. It inspects the factories The fashion industry divides opinion. For those that are the centres of production not just once but involved in it, it is all consuming and endlessly fascinating. regularly so that no one has the opportunity to make For others, it represents some of the most repellent things look good for a one-off visit. Perhaps the most aspects of a vain, consumerist culture. Personally, I admirable of its ventures is to take children off the confess to being more fascinated than repelled. I love streets of Lima—poor children with no apparent future— clothes and I love fashion. What has not yet been said and put them on a two-year course to learn to use in this debate is that we have to recognise that fashion knitting machines, for much of their clothing is knitted. is part of the entertainment industry, at least to some When the course is finished, Wall supplies each child extent. There is a lot of fun in fashion, and that is what with a knitting machine so that after training they may attracts people to it. I particularly love the imagination continue with what has become a useful career. This and creativity of designers, and I admire the artistry of contrasts with the exploitation of child workers in the photographers and stylists through whose eyes we other countries who are subjected to violence, abuse understand their work. Frankly, most of us never get and very poor pay. on to the front row, or even the back row, of a catwalk The group of women who constitute the Andean show in fashion week. It is therefore a tremendous Collection also have strong connections with South pleasure to have the opportunity to talk about these America. Though the company is based in New York, matters in this House. they travel twice a year for extended stays with the The noble Baroness, Lady Young, has framed her workers of Ecuador, who share in the profits of the topic carefully. It refers to the, company as part owners. They pay for the education of artisans’ children and require them as teenagers to “ethical and sustainable fashion and clothing industry”. assist in the family’s business, thus breaking the cycle Another thing that has not quite been teased out—and of poverty. I am not going to try to—is the definition of the At present, the industry suffers from unreasonable difference between fashion and clothes; but there is deadlines imposed by retailers, contracts with suppliers something there that is quite interesting. I want to that are never written down, variations in terms and concentrate on “sustainable” and “clothing”, but in a conditions after delivery, even to a reduction in price, slightly different way—in perhaps a micro, rather than and unreasonable penalties imposed on suppliers for a macro, way. I want to talk about the old fashioned defective products. Does the Minister agree that a concept of “make do and mend”—perhaps appropriately change is needed here and that the Government’s in these straitened times. encouragement of other textile and clothing firms in We have already heard that most of the clothes the UK to follow the example set by the few retailers available today on the high street are made far away in who work on ethical principles is much needed? Are China, Asia or eastern Europe by people who we will not these green and humanitarian issues that everyone probably never meet, working in conditions we would who cares about their fellow men and women and prefer not to think about, for wages that would barely animals, as well as looking good and keeping warm, buy us a cup of coffee. These clothes are, as a consequence, should support? It would be good to know that they absurdly cheap—as we have heard—which allows them care about those issues as much as they care about our to be regarded as disposable. The human, economic forests. and environmental consequences of our overconsumption have been graphically spelt out by other speakers. However, this is a fairly recent phenomenon. Other 6.35 pm speakers have touched on how different it was when Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, I join all they were growing up. Certainly, when I was growing those who have spoken in congratulating my noble up, clothes were relatively much more expensive and friend—because she is my friend—Lady Young of there was much less choice. Hornsey on securing this debate at, as she said, an If you go back a bit further into the 19th century extraordinarily timely moment; and on her tremendous and beyond, the picture is even more starkly different. vigour in seizing this issue and in getting the all-party Clothes had to be made by hand, either by the person group going, which is a good and helpful way to bring who was going to wear them or, for the better off, by a these issues to the attention of a lot more people. As professional tailor or seamstress in the community. part of declaring my interests, I am delighted to say Making clothes was hard work. They had to last and that I have joined that group, and I hope that many they were often therefore reinvented by the addition of other noble Lords and Members of the other place small embellishments, such as lace or ribbons, remade will do so in due course. to suit changed shape or fashion, or passed on to 1287 Clothing Industry[LORDS] Clothing Industry 1288

[BARONESS MCINTOSH OF HUDNALL] through our education system and beyond, the importance others. How do I know this? It is not from serious of having basic skills necessary to get the maximum study, but from reading novels—not, I regret, the use from everything we consume? Secondly, what help novels of my noble friend Lady Rendell, but mostly can the Government give, perhaps through reductions the novels of the 19th century. If you take any of the in VAT or other tax breaks, to small businesses such as great writers of that period—Dickens, Trollope, George clothing repair services, aiming at this kind of Eliot, Wilkie Collins, and who remembers The Moonstone sustainability? and the vital importance of a handmade nightgown to The fashion industry is highly influential, particularly the plot of that novel?—you will find it all there in the on young people. If it began to move away from its detail of those novels. Most women and some men, focus on cheapness and disposability, and started to until two or three generations ago, whatever social construct some messages about the importance of class they belonged to, would have had some skill in conserving, reusing and repairing—it would be very sewing, knitting, perhaps even lace-making or embroidery, difficult for it, I entirely understand—then the generation and most importantly in repairing clothes. Such simple that needs to hear might begin to listen. There are domestic accomplishments became unfashionable, I some signs that this is about to happen. I hope that think largely from the point at which women began to they will grow. seek a wider role in public life. Of course I do not regret that, but it had this consequence, among many others. 6.44 pm Now these skills have become the preserve of specialists. Baroness Quin: I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, In the theatre, for example, where I have spent most of Lady Young of Hornsey, on initiating this debate, and my professional life, clothes—costumes—are hugely on speaking to it in such a knowledgeable and informative important, both to the people who wear them and to way. I know that she has had a long involvement with the audiences who look at them. Many, especially in this issue through the London College and elsewhere, large classical theatre or opera companies, are tailor-made and has also raised these issues on previous occasions for individual performers, and require not only exceptional in this House. Indeed, as my noble friend Lady McIntosh skill in cutting and making— comparable to that in reminded us, she has also been involved in raising the fashion houses—but often the application of detailed issue in both Houses through the establishment of the research into style, fabric and decoration. They must all-party group, to which I wish much success. also be made to withstand the rigours of whatever a The noble Baroness raised a wide number of issues, performance may demand. Consequently, each piece and the debate has been widened even further by costs a lot to produce and has to be maintained subsequent contributions to look at the fashion and carefully throughout its life, which can be long. Many clothing industry more generally, as did my noble costumes, once their initial use is fulfilled, go into friends Lord Sugar and Lady Rendell. The noble store, and in time reappear having been refurbished Lord, Lord Addington, spoke on the history of the and changed in a completely different production. industry, which, as he reminded us, has been very This is sustainability in action. We have to ask, in a important in the past and from which lessons had to world of austerity and diminishing resources, whether be learnt. Indeed, we had some literary allusions from we should not be learning again to value the ability to my noble friend Lady McIntosh. The debate has been make things last, not just as a rare specialism, but as a wide-ranging and there are many points to which the normal part of everyone’s personal toolkit. Dr Fletcher Minister will wish to respond. of the London College of Fashion, to whom I referred When I first saw the title of the debate I was earlier, points out that today the extreme cheapness of somewhat surprised that it was considered a Defra new clothes has pretty much consigned repair to history, responsibility, although I understand why it is, for the overtaken by a new philosophy of “discard and purposes of this debate. It very much arises from the repurchase”, about which we have heard a great deal Defra sustainable clothing action plan launched three this evening. The commercial imperative behind this, to four years ago under the previous Government. In from the point of view of the industry, is pretty that respect, I pay tribute to my noble friend and obvious. She also observes that the fact that most of colleague Lord Hunt of Kings Heath who took a keen us lack the practical skills nowadays to repair things interest in these issues when he was a Minister. He ourselves must be partly to do with a general undervaluing helped launch the initiative at the London College, of manual skills-based education, compared with where his catwalk performance was described by the academic subjects. It is timely to remember this on the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, as being day that the Wolf report is produced. We are not very much appreciated. That conveys an interesting talking about it today, but I note it. spectacle to most of us who had not thought of my Furthermore, if we want to have our clothes repaired noble friend as being a catwalk performer. None the or altered professionally, it is increasingly difficult to less, I know that he was very committed to the action find people able to do it. Even when we do, I fear that plan within Defra and to the initiatives taken by the we are reluctant to pay properly for their services, thus noble Baroness. I know that he would like me to pay making it hard for small businesses, to which my noble tribute to the staff in Defra who are working on the friend Lord Sugar referred—there are lots of them in road map and who I know he felt were very enthusiastic this industry—to survive. When the Minister replies, I about the work that they were doing. wonder whether he would consider the following Although I recognise the valuable role that Defra questions; they are small but not entirely insignificant, can play in this issue, this is a classic case of co-ordination I hope. First, how can the Government help to underline, being necessary across various government departments. 1289 Clothing Industry[3 MARCH 2011] Clothing Industry 1290

Many of the issues raised today relate to government companies. I accept the point made by my noble friend departments other than Defra, such as the Department Lord Sugar that companies these days are concerned for Business, Innovation and Skills. The Department about the standards of production of the goods that for International Development is relevant in terms of they are dealing with and the conditions in which some of the important issues in development, as are people in those producing industries are employed. departments dealing with education and training, and That is also reflected by the fact that quite a large universities—mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord number of retailers were willing to sign up to the Addington—and so is the Treasury when it comes to clothing action plan. We hope that that number can tax incentives or fiscal measures. What co-ordinating increase in future. Those issues are important, and I mechanisms exist at present for looking at the ethical hope that the Government will be able to respond. clothing and fashion industry? Is there a committee If we can make further progress on this issue, this that has representation from the appropriate departments? can be a win for the environment and for responsible How would it support Defra in taking forward the producers and manufacturers as well as for trade and clothing action plan and the initiatives that have already social justice. They are very important issues and, been taken? once again, I thank the noble Baroness very warmly Have there been any changes to the road map since for raising them in this House today. the previous Government published their progress report in February 2010? I was trying to find out 6.53 pm about it from the Defra website and ran out of time The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, before the debate, but I was a little puzzled that there is Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs still reference to the old Defra website. Somehow the (Lord Henley): My Lords, I start by answering one new and old websites have not been consolidated into question from the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, on the one departmental statement even though we are 10 months Defra website. I am not sure exactly what her concerns on from the election and the change of government. It are, but I will look at that very carefully and get back is a bit confusing for those seeking information about to her in due course. I offer my congratulations to all this issue. other speakers in this debate, and to the noble Baroness, When she referred to these issues previously, the Lady Young, on introducing it on this subject. Like noble Baroness, Lady Young, talked about the role of my noble friend Lord Addington, I faced a certain small businesses in ethical fashion and clothing. She amount of ribaldry about the fact that I would have to was concerned at the time, a couple of years ago, answer such a debate. I do not think—unlike the about the economic climate adversely affecting small description given of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, by businesses in particular. What contact has the department the noble Baroness, Lady Quin—that I am the sort of had with small businesses in the sector to confront person that one would see on the catwalk, and no one some of the challenges that they face in what is even would expect to. But when I saw my noble friend the perhaps a more difficult economic situation? Chief Whip today, decked out in leather and quite a lot of bling—I do not know if other noble Lords saw The noble Baroness also mentioned procurement, a her—I thought that it might be more appropriate for point that was echoed by one or two other speakers. I her to respond to the debate, but she was not prepared would be interested to know whether, with regard to to take on that role, and there we are. Defra, the Government were considering widening the applicability of government buying standards to include There is a lot that I want to say and quite a number the NHS, perhaps, or other parts of government that of points that I want to address that the noble Baroness are not currently included. Is consideration being given and others have raised. I start by offering my to this? congratulations on the work that she has done in trying to put together again an all-party group—I The noble Baroness also raised the issue of what we cannot remember if it is a new all-party group or have been calling the supermarket ombudsman—now whether it is resurrecting the old one—on this subject. called adjudicator. The main inspiration behind this I wish her well on that. I understand that she is hoping was the perceived weakness of farmers and agricultural to have the first meeting of that group on 16 March—that producers in negotiating with supermarkets. It was an is what I was advised. That is the day before the next interesting point as to whether there was a role for the meeting that we have on the sustainable clothing road adjudicator in the textile and clothing industry, particularly map, which is right and proper. I hope that those two given that so many supermarkets these days are quite things can go ahead consecutively on those dates. I substantial sellers of clothing. Again, I would be offer her my best wishes. interested in the Government’s reaction to that. I will run through very quickly some of the noble A number of issues raised would probably come Baroness’s questions before I get to the main part of more within the area of responsibility of the Foreign my speech. She asked about tax breaks for ethical, Office or DfID than Defra. None the less, they are green fashion businesses. Noble Lords will know that I important to raise during the debate. The noble Baroness will not comment on that because it is more than my referred to the alarming reports about the cotton job’s worth to comment on anything to do with Her industry and the employment of very young people in Majesty’s Treasury, but no doubt it will be passed on Uzbekistan. I read those reports and found them very to colleagues. She also talked about the important role troubling indeed, and wondered what representations in terms of government procurement. I was reminded might have been made about this, or if any positive about that when I looked at the obituaries today, progress has been made. This is of interest not only to which announced the sad death of the last remaining Members of this House and to the public but to son of the late Monty Burton of Burton the tailors. In 1291 Clothing Industry[LORDS] Clothing Industry 1292

[LORD HENLEY] the water or the fertiliser—I have been given a figure that obituary, I was reminded that Burton the tailors for the amount of fertiliser used throughout the world provided a third of all uniforms for the British Army on cotton; about 25 per cent of all pesticides go into during the war and a large number of the demob suits that. I will correct that figure if I have got it wrong. afterwards. Therefore, one is reminded of the importance We also have to consider the greenhouse gas emissions of the Government as a purchaser in this field. The when fossil fuels are processed into synthetic fibres. As Government feel that they have an important role to the fibres are made into fabrics, there may be hazardous make sure that they get their exemplary action over to waste. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, mentioned others. In Defra, I hope that we can lead that and the cotton and dyeing industry and the effluents from encourage other government departments to behave in the dye and finishes. the right way. As noble Lords have reminded us, ethical issues are The noble Baroness also asked about the supermarket associated with access to markets, trade terms for adjudicator. The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, commented producer markets—that is why I wanted to mention on it. Again, this is not something that we plan to the CAP—and concerns about labour conditions in extend to clothes, but no doubt we will look at the clothing factories, sweatshop conditions and child labour idea that she has put forward in due course. Initial issues. plans for a supermarket adjudicator are related to food, but it is a perfectly valid point and one that Once we have bought clothes, there are the significant should be looked at. factors of water, detergents, greenhouse gas emissions Finally and this again was raised by others, the associated with washing and drying them, and the noble Baroness talked about the problems of cotton waste produced at the end of life. Waste issues are and the CAP and the fairly appalling distortions in close to my department. They have hit the headlines that. She and others will know that we are in the recently. Concerns about the impact of fast fashion middle of the process of renegotiating the CAP. Dare are well founded. I was given an interesting statistic I say it, we cannot make any promises about what we earlier. We buy about 2 million tonnes of clothing a will achieve as a result of attempts to reform the CAP, year and discard about 1 million tonnes. It seems to but Her Majesty’s Government will be pushing very me that our wardrobes are growing at an unsustainable hard on it and we recognise that there are some fairly rate, but I ask all noble Lords and Ladies to look at major distortions in there, particularly in relation to their wardrobes to see what is happening. Where are the production of cotton in Portugal, Spain and, to a the clothes going? much lesser extent, Greece. That is certainly something The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, rightly referred to that Her Majesty’s Government should be aware of the sustainable clothing road map, which was established and will push for. in 2007. It is a concerted effort by the whole clothing Economically, the clothing and fashion industry is supply chain to understand and address its environmental an important component of national and global and ethical impact. The road map provides a platform economies, as all noble Lords made clear. Textile for sharing evidence and industry best practice to help supply chains are long and complicated. They involve catalyse change throughout the sector. From the evidence, actors from the agricultural, chemical fibre, textile, the road map has prioritised certain hotspot areas and apparel industries, the retail and services sector, where business can act to reduce the environmental and—thinking particularly of part of my own and ethical impact of its clothing. The road map has department—waste recovery and treatment operations. produced an action plan under which more than 40 organisations, throughout the lifespan of clothing As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, historically manufacture, retail and disposal, have committed we had a major textile manufacturing base. As the themselves to specific actions to reduce their impact. noble Lord, Lord Sugar, reminded us, 90 per cent of A large number of big high street names are involved— the UK’s clothing is now imported. We have seen a Nike, Tesco, Adidas. I add that it involves not just big major migration of our textile industry abroad. However, retail but people such as the Salvation Army, the I remind the noble Lord that we still have a considerable Textile Recycling Association and Oxfam, because clothing manufacturing business even if 90 per cent they have a role in disposal—reuse—which comes very has gone abroad, and a lot of that is in SMEs and high up in our waste hierarchy, because it is obviously involved in what we might refer to as ethical and far better to reuse or recycle clothes than to send them sustainable fashion. I note again what he had to say to landfill. about his ideas, which should be looked at. Those businesses are ones that we should continue to encourage I assure the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, who I and support. think asked about education, that the Salvation Army is committed to the educative process of encouraging Our consumption of clothes and textiles and so people to think of recycling and re-use and, as she put forth can have positive economic effects on not only it, repair of clothing rather than throwing it out. our own country’s economy but, as was made clear by People of my father’s generation were even taught a number of speakers, a great many developing countries. how to darn socks. I have never learnt that art and, I But alongside those positive effects, there are a wide fear, now tend to throw out socks, but a different range of environmental and ethical implications. generation did different things. Within Defra, we have Alongside those positive effects, there is a wide funded evidence projects on emerging fibres, re-use range of environmental and ethical implications. and recycling of clothes, clothes cleaning and the Environmentally, we must consider the impact of fibre public understanding of sustainable clothing, and we production all the way through the process, whether will do more where appropriate. 1293 Clothing Industry[3 MARCH 2011] Clothing Industry 1294

I am now getting warning signs from my colleagues, poor working conditions. Some 60 companies in the but I should talk a little about what other government United Kingdom are now members making progress departments are doing, because DfID did considerable in this initiative. work when it recently launched its RAGS programme— I could go on; there is much that I would like to say that is the responsible and accountable garment sector if the time were available. I am trying to assure you challenge fund, which is a £3 million fund which that we are doing our bit and that we will continue to supports projects aimed at improving the conditions work in all these funds. I look forward to the next of vulnerable workers in the ready-made garment meeting, on 17 March, on the sustainable clothing production industries overseas. The fund is aimed at road map, and I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady workers in low-income countries that supply the United Young, will be involved in that. Kingdom market such as India, Bangladesh, and a certain number of countries in Africa. Lord Haskel: Before the Minister sits down, could he tell us what percentage of clothing— I can also mention the ethical trading initiative, supported by DfID, which drives practical action on Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, the time better working conditions in the supply chains of its has been exceeded. companies. It has brought businesses, trade unions and non-governmental organisations together to tackle House adjourned at 7.06 pm.

GC 187 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 188

this are all very well, but these women are still very Grand Committee poor. That is why their state benefits in retirement will perhaps just about equal their wage. They are still very Thursday, 3 March 2011. poor, whether in work or in retirement. A pension, however small, even if it is below the Pensions Bill [HL] trivial commutation level, which it probably will be, Committee (2nd Day) gives the woman, through pension savings, a two for one to match her own—because she attracts the employer’s 2pm contribution and, to a minor degree, the tax relief, depending on where she is earning—which, perhaps The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness for the first time, might allow her to retire with a small Fookes): My Lords, although it seems highly unlikely capital sum below the trigger commutation rate of this afternoon, I am obliged to remind your Lordships perhaps £10,000 or £15,000, depending on how long that, should there be a Division in the Chamber, we she has saved. will adjourn immediately the Division bells ring and resume after 10 minutes. I do not accept this argument. It is right that there are high replacement earnings in retirement, if you have a very low wage. However, that means that—this Amendment 16: is the key fact behind it—both in work and in retirement Moved by Baroness Hollis of Heigham you are likely be very poor indeed. This is why we need an option for NEST. 16: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— “Voluntary enrolment and employer contribution The industry’s second argument, which I also think After section 9(2) of the 2008 Act (duties to workers without is fallacious, although I understand it, is that employers qualifying earnings) insert— do not want the hassle of handling small sums that, “(3) The Secretary of State shall by regulations provide that they say, would not be worth much to the employee any employer to whom subsection (2) applies shall be under a once the means-tested benefits come into play. However, duty to pay contributions in respect of the jobholder equal to or there is a profound flaw in their argument here, too. more than 3% of the amount of the jobholder’s total earnings in the relevant pay reference period.”” The reason why the sums are small is that, wherever you set the auto-enrolment start line, whether it is LEL at £5,200 or ET at £7,400, the first £1,000 or Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, this £2,000 of earnings above any line that you set will by amendment is about voluntary earnings. Who do we definition produce only a very modest increment in think NEST is for? It is basically for poorer people, pension. That would be true whether you were on mostly women, who are not able to save in conventional £10,000, £15,000, £20,000 or £22,000. The first £2,000 ways and have hitherto had no access to an occupational produces little additional revenue. That is why, while pension. The other two members of the Paul Johnson the argument is true that you might as well put it up to review team that produced the report Making Automatic £7,500 because the difference between £5,200 and Enrolment Work are very experienced people, but they £7,500 is tiny, it is also the case for the first £2,000 of come from the industry and employment side. Their earnings above £7,500. It is true for wherever you set report recommends that auto-enrolment begins not at the threshold, so it does not apply to the figure of the LEL of £5,204 but at the earnings threshold of £5,200 as such; it applies to the fact that you have a just under £7,500. This means that 1 million people, threshold at all, which is not based on the first zero mostly women, who would have been automatically pound. enrolled will now not be. The expectation is that ET will rise potentially to £10,000, at which point 2 million The whole of the report is fallacious, in so far as it people, mostly women, will not be automatically enrolled. hinges on that argument. Otherwise, if the woman is The report runs two arguments in favour of raising auto-enrolled at £5,200 with earnings of £7,400, her the threshold. I think that both of them are fallacious. pot over 25 years, I estimate, with a levy on the £2,000 The first argument that the report runs is that—it is, of increment, will be about £10,000 greater than if she course, true—very low earners have high replacement was enrolled in £7,400. But if she is enrolled at £7,400, rates in retirement through benefits and so on, so that and has earnings of £2,000 above that—say £9,400 or NEST is not necessary, unlike for higher earners, for £9,500—she will still have the same size pot on the first whom state benefits by definition represent a lower £2,000 or so of income, give or take £100 or £200. replacement rate and who might therefore wish to take The additional pot argument, in other words, applies advantage of NEST. The second argument that the wherever you pitch the threshold—unless, of course, report runs—as you would expect from the industry—is you are up in the £30,000 or £40,000 region, where by that they do not want to handle such small sums. That definition you have a much higher increment. Therefore, is the basis of their argument and the Government the argument that the pots are too small to be worth have followed their advice. bothering about either is valid for wherever you set the The first of these is about replacement earnings. It threshold for low earners or is not valid at all. The is, of course, true that, if you have a low enough problem is not whether it starts at the LEL of £5,200 income from earned work, even the basic state pension or at the ET at £7,400; it is that it does not cover the backed by pension credit will come to much the same earnings below the threshold—the first £5,200 or £7,400. level as your wage and therefore you will have a high Auto-enrolment on those would make the difference replacement rate. The statistics and percentages on that matters. That is what this amendment is about. GC 189 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 190

[BARONESS HOLLIS OF HEIGHAM] This amendment adduces no new principle. It is I am pleased that the Government have agreed that, about voluntary enrolment in which the employer following the Johnson report, wherever a woman wishes must contribute. That principle has already been voluntarily to enrol between the LEL of £5,200 and established for young people and for the gap between the ET at £7,500, the employer must contribute. As I LEL and ET. There would be no additional small pots. have suggested, although that is useful, it is not enough On the contrary, it could well double the pots and to make a really significant difference unless it is more, to the gain of all parties concerned, and make it extended to embrace the whole of the earnings from worth saving, which is what we all want. I beg to move. pound zero. My amendment adduces no new principle. The Baroness Drake: My Lords, to my mind there are Government have already agreed—unless they have two reasons why Amendment 16, tabled by my noble changed their mind and I have not picked that up—that friend Lady Hollis, is attractive. First, it would enable young people below the age of 22 can voluntarily people outside the lower limit on the band of earnings enrol. I welcome this. The Government have also who want to save to be able to. Those of us who agreed—I also welcome this as a concession following followed the debate know that a reason for the lower the report—that low earners earning between LEL limit on the band of earnings, as distinct from the and ET can also voluntarily enrol before they hit the earnings trigger that is now proposed, was the auto-enrolment figure of £7,500. This amendment consideration of the persistently very low-paid workers would allow the earner voluntarily to enrol on all her and whether it was appropriate for them to be nudged. earnings from pound zero, provided that she was at or However, as my noble friend said, this amendment is above the threshold—a threshold that I would like to not auto-enrolling. It allows for the active choice of be the LEL for the sake of consistency. the worker—an active decision of someone on low Therefore, no new principle is involved in this earnings for a particular job. If they choose positively amendment. It would merely bring into NEST those to make that decision, there seems to be a good and employees who, if they were in a standard occupational fair reason for the employer to make a matching pension, would have their earnings covered from pound contribution of 3 per cent, particularly because their zero. It would merely align NEST with best practice incomes are low. The individual would still be a worker already in occupational pension schemes—nothing and the 3 per cent employer contribution would also new or novel. Only NEST has the LEL threshold for assist with the arguments about de minimis levels of voluntary entry at £5,200 and ET at £7,500 for auto-entry. contribution and the consequential impact on costs What does all this mean? Take a woman on half and charges. average earnings—say £11,000 a year. Only in NEST My second reason for finding this amendment attractive would a third of her earnings, between £7,500 and is that it extends the principle that the reforms should £11,000, be automatically pensioned. If she were in an work for women because, although women are most OP,her entire earnings would be automatically pensioned. likely to have earnings below the qualifying band, I emphasise that it would be voluntary for her to make their household income may be such that they still the choice as to whether she welcomes and wants this want to make a pension contribution. That is very form of savings going back to pound zero, given her important. I declare an interest because of my involvement family circumstances. with NEST. NEST is designed to allow someone voluntarily to contribute once they have a NEST Why is it necessary? Some 40 per cent of women at account, although I acknowledge that there are de retirement may not be married; they may be cohabiting minimis requirements because of the need to keep and they may or may not be financially interdependent costs and charges low. However, I am sure that in most with their partner. As a result, they need to carry their instances the combination of the employer contribution own pension. I am sure that the Minister and everyone and the employee contribution would go above those in this Room would agree with me on that. As is de minimis requirements. It could also start to address stands, only a third of her income would be automatically the multi-job problem where women have several mini- pensioned. Should ET rise to £10,000 and she is on jobs, because individual contributions per job look earnings of £11,000, almost none of her earnings—a low but in aggregate could be much greater. Although paltry £1,000—would be pensioned unless she chose I fear that many women in such mini-jobs will not voluntarily to go back down to the LEL. Not surprisingly, have the confidence to overcome the barriers of inertia this would result in the small sums which the industry and voluntarily opt in—their needs will require more finds a hassle and the employee finds disappointing systemic change, as we discussed yesterday—none the and which trap employees into benefit tapers. less there will be women who will want to make the I will repeat the statistics that I offered at Second active choice and who will be in circumstances where Reading. Under these proposals, a woman has the that makes economic sense and where it will assist the right to enrol voluntarily below the LEL, so a woman asset accumulation for a pension in their own name. on £11,000 after 25 years who voluntarily saved on all So the proposal certainly has attractions. her earnings could end up with a pension pot of £40,000 over 25 years. If she relied on auto-enrolment 2.15 pm and it were to kick in with an ET of £10,000, which is what the Pensions Minister, the honourable Steve Webb, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, is promising us, she would retire with a pot of virtually Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My nothing. So the difference is between £40,000 or £1,000 Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her amendment. or £2,000. I have listened to the debate with great interest. Workers GC 191 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 192 on low earnings do not qualify for automatic enrolment. Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am grateful to the They have the right to opt into pension saving but do Minister for giving way. I obviously did not make not qualify by right to an employer contribution. The myself clear. I said that there would need to be a amendment seeks to ensure that these low earners threshold so that the ability to cover the first pound receive a contribution to workplace pension saving would apply only to those who are already over the from their employer if they choose to opt into pension threshold of, I hope, LEL and could even be at ET. In saving. other words, if you are earning only £4,000 there is no I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, may suggestion that that would bring you into NEST, as have intended us to focus on NEST, but it is worth the Minister appeared to think the amendment suggested. being aware that other schemes may have earnings If that is what the words say, I apologise because that thresholds in their rules. Therefore, we have looked at is due to my drafting. However, I had hoped that I had the issue from the perspective of low earners and made the position clear in my opening speech. contributions from pound one, irrespective of which scheme their employers choose. Lord Freud: I am now slightly mystified by the intention of the amendment. I understood that it Persistent low earners get a high replacement rate allowed an opt-in at any level. Perhaps the noble from the state without private pension saving, so for Baroness could clarify the position. these individuals it is questionable whether it is beneficial to redirect money into private saving. For some very Baroness Hollis of Heigham: No. I apologise. It says low earners who are not accruing a state pension, it that at the moment you are automatically enrolled at may be beneficial to opt into pension saving. The £7,500 and can opt in from £5,200 if your earnings are noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, gave an example of women between those two figures. I suggest that the same in households where there were other earnings. This opt-in right should apply to pound zero, but only if was an important point brought out in the Johnson you are already at the threshold. In other words, if you review. are on £4,000 or £3,000, you would have no right to During our previous deliberations, the noble Baroness, make a pension contribution, but if you are on anything Lady Drake, also brought to your Lordships’ attention above £5,200—certainly above £7,500—you can make the importance of adding to household saving. However, contributions voluntarily not only on the band between in practice, it is very hard to distinguish a clearly £5,200 and £7,500 but on the band £0 to £7,500. identifiable group of workers without qualifying earnings who would benefit from opting into pension saving. Lord Freud: I thank the noble Baroness for that An employer contribution is an incentive to save, so it explanation. My point of concern remains unchanged: follows that for very low earners an employer contribution if we allow that to happen for this particular group, we may be an incentive to opt in. We do not believe that it must expand it and allow everyone to make a pound is right to encourage opting in for the very few low one contribution. I therefore do not think that it earners who may benefit from saving at the risk of changes the argument and the concern about the extra penalising the many low earners who will not benefit costs implied, which could be around £900 million of from opting in. We also need to be conscious of the additional contributions—around one-quarter of the potential impact on employers. total cost—and represent an unacceptable burden on employers. It would also skew the structure of the Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I do not understand reforms that are designed to enable a median earner the point that the noble Lord has just made. Why with solid state entitlement to achieve a retirement would it penalise other low earners who do not opt in? income of around 45 per cent in line with the pension commission’s recommendation. The Johnson review endorsed that original recommendation. As the noble Lord Freud: I shall come to that question. There are Baroness said, I am not putting any weight on the around 1 million workers with annual earnings below small sums argument—that is not part of this argument. £5,715. If these people were brought into pension On her point about the move of the threshold up to saving, it could result in further employer contribution £10,000, we will debate that later. Clearly, I am sympathetic costs of up to £125 million. to the drive behind this proposal. The Government are There is another issue that makes me urge caution always willing to consider ideas that will allow us to on this amendment, although I appreciate that its keep the appropriate balance and maintain our key intention is laudable. We cannot legislate to discriminate policy intentions. However, we are unable to accept unreasonably between different groups. This proposal this amendment and I ask the noble Baroness to could well involve such discrimination because those withdraw it. who earn less than £5,000 would have an employer contribution on their full earnings if they opted in. Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am grateful for the However, those who earn £8,000 would have a contribution support of my noble friend Lady Drake on this and on only £3,000 of their earnings and not on the full for the thoughtfulness of the Minister’s answer. I £8,000—I am rounding up these figures. If we did it suspect that, possibly because of my drafting, there is for the lowest paid, we would have to do it for everyone, a misunderstanding. I had hoped that I had made it which would mean extending the requirement on clear in my opening speech—obviously I failed to do employers to pay a contribution on the first £5,715 to so—that we were talking about the situation where, if everyone in pension saving. In effect, that would be the someone was required to enrol through auto-enrolment equivalent of removing the lower limit of the qualifying but had the voluntary right to go back to £5,200, they earnings band, which would be unaffordable. would also have the voluntary right to go back to GC 193 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 194

[BARONESS HOLLIS OF HEIGHAM] (1) A jobholder who in any week in a tax year is employed in pound zero. It is as simple as that. At that point, it more than one employment and— seems to me, the Minister’s statistics of £900 million (a) whose earnings do not exceed the weekly earnings trigger apply to the very different scenario of someone earning in any individual employment or self-employment in that £2,000, £3,000 or £4,000 who could voluntarily enrol. week; and That never was, and never has been, my argument. It (b) whose earnings in aggregate reach or exceed the earnings has always been that those already in the system trigger in any week, should be able to cover the first pound. shall be deemed to have earnings equivalent to or exceeding the earnings trigger for the purposes of requesting voluntary enrolment into national employee savings trusts.” Lord Freud: I want to make this absolutely clear. Our concern here is about the discrimination that would otherwise come up. We cannot just leave pound Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I will be brief. As the one for one group; we would have to extend it to noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, noticed, very perceptively, everyone. That is why the costs would balloon from this is a shadow repeat of the arguments on mini-jobs this. It is not possible to maintain a narrow right for for the basic state pension. I do not adduce new one group; we would have to extend it. That is one of arguments for it; it is basically a duplicate of the reasons for our concern. Amendment 13. Multiple mini-jobs that, bundled together, take a woman over the LEL should be eligible not just Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am simply not persuaded for entry into the basic state pension, as we argued on by this. Is the Minister saying that because the very Amendment 13. We had some encouraging but poorest—those earning less than, say, £5,000 a year— cautious—I think that was the word we agreed to could not come within the system, those above the use—comments from the Minister on that, which were LEL should not be able to go back to zero? I think it also in the reply to NEST. The same arguments run. likely that the poorest might have a couple of mini-jobs The DWP or HMRC will, for universal credit purposes, or whatever and might well not qualify because they need the relevant information from all the employers are below the LEL. The Minister would not dream of of a woman who has mini-jobs. Just as they will applying that argument to the national insurance system, deduct any or no NICs, or a proportion thereof, they the whole of which is based on a lower earnings limit. could—in exactly the same way—deduct for NEST. You are automatically brought into the NI system, I accept that it will be more complicated for building up your entitlement to the basic state pension, contributions to the state pension, since women will be but you do not start to pay your NICs until you hit the credited into the BSP between the LEL and the ET. £7,500 ET. That argument is the basis of the basic Whether her portfolio of mini-jobs took her above the state pension. I have not heard the Minister say that LEL, or even above the ET, she would herself have to this is unfair because someone earning £3,000 or £4,000, contribute finance. In a sense, this puts down a marker. who is therefore below the LEL, cannot earn their way It is important that we do so if we can at this stage. into the national insurance system. I would welcome NEST is due to be reviewed in 2017—five and a half the Minister’s comments on this. years from now. I accept the cautious arguments that What the Minister is saying is impossible here, were advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Freud, on because it is unfair, is at the very basis of the national Tuesday that any such changes—even for the BSP, insurance system for the whole of our population. If it which is a simpler proposition—would have to await is good enough for NICs, it is certainly good enough the introduction of universal credit in 2013. It would for NEST. I am sorry, but I do not accept the noble also be a possibility with no guarantee until the stability Lord’s argument. In practical reality, I doubt that of the ICT system is secured and real-time information someone on £3,000 or £4,000 would want to save, can flow in from employers. although I suppose that it is possible, as my noble As I say, I want to put down a marker on this for friend said, because of her household circumstances 2017, by which time both UC and NEST should be rather than her own. What I am trying to do is to secure. We will know, I hope, that we have done this make available to those people in NEST the best successfully with BSP by then—indeed, I hope that it practice for most pension schemes. That is, you can will apply to BSP by 2017. I believe that, on the basis save from pound zero once you are over the earnings of that, we could build a similar proposition in relation threshold—the LEL. Once that happens, you then end to NEST. If we are serious about bringing as many up, by choice, with a pot that is worth having. To say women as possible into the pensions system, we should that it is unfair cannot be the case unless the Minister review this, certainly by 2017 at the latest. I seek the also accepts that the whole of the national insurance Minister’s views on this, even at this early stage. I beg system is unfair. I am sure that he would not wish to to move. go on record as saying that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. 2.30 pm Amendment 16 withdrawn. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I speak to Amendments 20 and 21 in this group, which concern the trigger. Their thrust is not dissimilar to that of the Amendment 17 amendment moved by my noble friend, although they Moved by Baroness Hollis of Heigham are perhaps less ambitious. We will shortly discuss 17: After Clause 4, insert the following new Clause— changes to or, indeed, the deletion of the trigger, but “Right to apply for amalgamation of earnings from multiple these amendments are predicated on the trigger remaining sources of employment for purposes of the earnings trigger at its current level. GC 195 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 196

Amendment 21 would give an opportunity for I also note the wise cautions of the noble Lord, jobholders to bring to the attention of employers the Lord Boswell, on Tuesday about the potential effect fact that by including earnings from other employments on employers—where aggregation is mooted—and on the trigger is reached or exceeded. Therefore, if the the labour market. As I said on Tuesday, I am sympathetic other conditions for auto-enrolment were present, the to the principle of aggregation for basic state pension employer would have a duty to act accordingly. I purposes. I am cautious but optimistic that this could underline how modest this provision is, as it is effectively be possible in the new world of the universal credit. an alternative to opting in. The employer would have This is because, if Government systems can track no auto-enrolment duty unless, among other things, information for universal credit, it may not be a huge the employee had qualifying earnings in respect of leap from there to having national insurance contributions that particular employment. It would be of advantage or making credits on a state pension record. However, only where, in respect of any particular employer, the we are now about to discuss a somewhat different trigger had not been reached but qualifying earnings issue—that of the aggregation of earnings from many with that employer had. As has been expressed—my jobs in relation to auto-enrolment into workplace noble friend Lady Drake will develop this when we pensions. I need to emphasise again that it is important discuss a subsequent group of amendments—we have to encourage part-time jobs and to look for a way of concerns about the potential widening gap between aggregation. However, there are greater barriers in this the trigger and the start of the band of qualifying area than there are in the area of the state pension in earnings. If that is right, being able to access contributions terms of aggregation. That it is more complicated was on that band, even though the trigger has not been stated by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, in her speech. met in respect of any employment, becomes more The main and unique barrier is a need not only to important. aggregate earnings across employers but also to apportion Like the amendment moved by my noble friend, pension contributions between those different employers. this amendment is in part about putting down a marker This is quite a problem in terms of employer burden for the ambition that, at some stage in the future, the cost and complexity, which we would need to find a various thresholds—the trigger and the qualifying way to resolve. The automatic enrolment duty falls on earnings—might be amalgamated with payments allocated each employer for the people they employ. There is no among two or more employers, but this amendment sharing of the duty between employers. If a person does not seek that. However, we would be interested in has two jobs, each of their employers is responsible for the Minister’s view on the extent to which HMRC enrolling them as the legislation is presently set up. might routinely have a role in identifying where the Workers who do not earn enough to qualify for automatic trigger is reached for multiple earnings. In a sense, it is enrolment clearly may opt in. Those who have the like the allocation of personal allowances across various qualifying earnings have the right to employer notices of coding. Could that be done on a more contributions, which is ground we went over just now. systematic basis? The noble Lord’s work on the universal credit seems predicated on amalgamating on a real-time The first amendment raised by the noble Baroness, basis income from a range of sources, so we wonder Lady Hollis, seeks to increase voluntary pensions saving whether there is a read-across to auto-enrolment. If for people who do not earn enough to be automatically there were, it would address the inertia issue that is enrolled by enabling the aggregation of the many jobs present in the formulation of this amendment and the and any earnings from self-employment for a person equivalent opt-in route. who also works on their own account. This would The amendment in the name of my noble friend allow people who earn under the automatic enrolment Lady Hollis is, as I said, pretty much on the same earnings trigger, and opt in, to have their earnings for page, although I understand that it is not necessary for more than one job taken into account for calculating the earnings trigger to be reached for a jobholder to pension contributions. This looks like a straightforward opt in. The right exists if the employee has qualifying proposal. However, there are considerable practical earnings, but it would not allow the employee to problems that would, in practice, increase employer specify a particular scheme, be it NEST or any other administration burden. scheme. I think that that would be the employer’s Let me turn to the two amendments from the noble choice, although the Minister may be able to enlarge Baroness, Lady Drake, and the noble Lord, Lord on that. By and large, however, we are seeking to McKenzie, which seek to enable aggregation by solving achieve the same thing. The prize for and the challenge one of these practical difficulties about information to the Minister is to see, consistent with confidentiality sharing between employers. These amendments enable of information, whether the systems that enable some earnings from separate jobs for separate employers to more automatic notifications in some circumstances be added together where the person can demonstrate can be deployed where the trigger is in aggregate to the employer that they have another job with other reached but not in any one employment. earnings in that week or month and that they are therefore entitled to be auto-enrolled. This is a very Lord Freud: My Lords, on Tuesday we discussed neat amendment that shifts the burden of proof from the possible aggregation of many jobs for credit towards the employer. However, it is not quite as modest as the the basic state pension. I admit to being indebted to noble Lord suggested because it does not entirely the ever persuasive arguments of the noble Baroness, solve the issue of the employer administration burden. Lady Hollis, about the effect of portfolios of many jobs, especially in rural communities, and her concern It is not immediately obvious how the employer that as many low earners as possible should be able to contribution could be easily calculated or divided up. qualify for auto-enrolment and an employer contribution. No mechanism currently exists to do that. Would GC 197 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 198

[LORD FREUD] of work. It might be possible to aggregate electronically multi-employers share the cost of the employer in that way. I just offer that to my noble friend as a way contribution? If so, how would that be done? Which forward. I am pleased to see the noble Baroness, Lady employer takes responsibility for paying contributions Hollis, also nodding, at least as a thought. We always to the pension scheme? If they share the cost, how have to be careful with these things, because there will would one employer recover the cost from the other be some people on manual, some people who do not employer? If they do not share the cost, is it fair that understand and minority interests and industries. But one employer bears the entire cost and the other none if we can possibly start working toward some sensible of it? Overall, we cannot see how it could be done protocols people could use, it would be generally without placing a significant and unfair burden on beneficial. employers. I sympathise with the intention behind these amendments in terms of those with multiple Lord McKenzie of Luton: I wonder whether the jobs, and it is certainly an issue to keep an eye on as we Minister would allow me to intervene, because he go forward. It clearly—and noble Lords all acknowledge challenged the description I gave of my amendment as this—is not feasible with our present technology; but being modest. He may have misunderstood the intent even if it became feasible, which it very well may, of part of it. All it was seeking to do initially was to moving the burden of proof on to the worker is not say that if someone had qualifying earnings, with a the way to do it. particular employer, but not earnings that reached the Standing back just a little, our first priority at this trigger, and if there were a process of the employer point must be to ensure that employers understand, being made aware that the trigger had been reached, and are able successfully to implement, their duties the employer would automatically enrol and be responsible under automatic enrolment. That is the priority. This for contributions in respect of the earnings in that is not the right point to contemplate introducing significant employment between the start of the qualifying earnings changes to those duties, and I think noble Lords today band and whatever that band reached. That would in recognise that. Introducing new and significant burdens a sense be stand alone for an employer. That gives would disrupt that process. However, noble Lords exactly the same result as employees now have in being have successfully put down a marker for 2017. On that able to opt in, because if you have earnings above the basis, we do not accept the amendment and invite threshold, but not at the trigger, you can simply opt in noble Lords to withdraw it. and get the employer contribution. Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, I wonder whether Along the way, the hope would be that, rather than I might make my contribution before the Opposition relying on the activity of the employee—because we spokesman. First, I apologise to the Committee for are always trying to deal with the inertia problem—you having been late; my excuse is probably the best I have could somehow make it more automatic. It would be ever been able to tender, because I have just been automatic, though, only in the sense of the employer attending a meeting of pension trustees. being aware that the trigger had been reached. It would not require any aggregation of earnings by any Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Are they solvent? employer. I instance how HMRC deals with notices of coding. If people have two or more jobs, on one basis Lord Boswell of Aynho: Well, they are, and it is the or another the personal allowance is divvied up across Conservative Party agents’ superannuation scheme, their notices of coding—don’t ask me how. In a sense, but I promise not to detain the Committee on that. I an employer would be aware that other earnings may hope I would have given the same attention to anyone be involved. That sort of process could be a trigger for else with whom I was in a trustee relationship. automatically alerting the employer that the trigger May I just make two points? I fully understand that had been reached and simply then requiring them to the Minister was kind enough to quote my slight deal with auto-enrolment on the earnings that the reservation in our earlier exchanges on related matters. employee is being paid by that employer. My amendment The first is a note of concern: it would certainly be would do no more than that. unfortunate if one employer were somehow to be delinquent because of the failure of another employer 2.45 pm to declare, which had created excess over the qualifying Lord Freud: We are in danger of sitting here devising limit. I just make that point; I am sure my noble friend IT systems, which is great fun but rather time-consuming. will have it in mind. The word “awareness” is more than modest, because The second point is intended to be more positive making people aware in the present IT environment is and it might help to inform trains of thought. One a substantial requirement due to the privacy around always has to be careful about these sorts of things, the data concerned. It would not be possible. I come not least for data protection reasons. I happened yesterday back to my earlier point: in the new world of universal to have gone to a completely unrelated meeting in this credit, the way in which that information is used will building about occupational health, which is an interest change quite dramatically and things may become of mine. We were looking at the new construction possible. However, this is not the way to do it. In the workers’ smart card scheme. Of course, once there is present context, it is practical neither technologically something that is able to identify the individual with nor politically. known characteristics—dates of birth, for example, or presumably one could incorporate an NI number—and Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Before I decide what that is portable, it is possible for that to be tendered, or to do with the amendment, which will be fairly predictable, even required to be tendered, through various places perhaps I may ask the Minister a further question—again, GC 199 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 200 it may reflect my failure to understand either the Baroness Hollis of Heigham: To be clear—again, I briefing papers or their import. Let me give him the am very happy for the noble Lord to write to me, example of a woman in a job where she earns more because I realise that I have sprung this on him—I than £7,500—let us say £7,600—and is automatically think that he is saying that, if a woman was earning enrolled. What would be her situation if she had a £7,600, she would be automatically enrolled in NEST second job which gave her £6,000 a year, taking her by her employer. If she had a second job which brought above the LEL but below the ET, and she might or her in £6,000 and she chose to enrol, the employer might not wish to enrol? Alternatively, she might have would match it. So she would be running two NEST a second job which paid £4,000; that is, below the pots simultaneously. LEL. Could the Minister help me on that? Lord Freud: I do not need to write. I can confirm Lord Freud: I shall try to answer that, but I shall that. It does not have to be NEST. The pensions may keep an ear open to those behind me. or may not be NEST in each case.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am sorry to spring it on him. Baroness Drake: If it was NEST, it would not be two pots; it would all go into one NEST account. But if the employer choice in each instance was a different Lord Freud: As I understand the situation, for the pension scheme, by definition there would be two pots. job paying £7,600, she would clearly be auto-enrolled. To clarify on the previous debate, my understanding For the job paying £6,000, she would not, but she was that those earnings that came within the band—forget could opt in—it would be treated separately. For the all other triggers—attracted an employer contribution. job paying £4,000, she could opt in if she wanted to. That is the critical thing. To get the employer contribution, the earnings must be in the band. If your earnings are Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Even though one or below that band, you can opt in but you cannot trigger two other employers were involved? the employer contribution.

Lord Freud: The £7,600 would take her through the Lord Freud: That is exactly what I said, so I thank threshold. The additional incomes would be treated the noble Baroness, who is an expert in this area, for separately, because we do not aggregate. The £4,000 giving me the relief of not making a horrific solecism. falls to a level at which she can make a contribution, although she would not get an employer contribution on top. That is how that would work. A thousand Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I think that where that examples could be cited, but the basic rules remain. takes us is that the woman in question would be getting information and contributions from two employers, in much the same way as would be the case if she were Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Would she get an in mini-jobs which, if put together, would take her employer contribution on the £6,000? above the threshold. I accept the Minister’s point that at this moment in time this is a step too far for NEST Lord Freud: Yes, that goes above the lower trigger. to carry out. I genuinely understand that. As I say, we are putting down a marker. However, I am not sure that the size of the further step to take is as great as he Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I would be very happy originally suggested in the light of the exploration that for the Minister to write to me; I realise that I am we have had on having two streams of money going throwing this example at him. into possibly two separate NEST pots, according to whether one is default and the other is not. In order to Lord Freud: Just to make it absolutely clear: the handle that, we will need the IT on which one could contribution is made above that trigger. build the push of my original amendment. None the less, this has been an extremely useful debate and I am grateful to the Minister, my noble friend Lady Drake Baroness Hollis of Heigham: The LEL trigger? and the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, for helping to clarify this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Lord Freud: Yes, the lower trigger. It is not from pound one. Amendment 17 withdrawn.

Lord Boswell of Aynho: My noble friend the Minister said that she would have nothing from the employer. I Clause 5 : Earnings trigger for automatic enrolment suppose, to be pedantic, that that would be so unless and re-enrolment the employer chose to make a contribution, but there would be no obligation on the employer. Amendment 18 Lord Freud: Yes, I can confirm that, although we Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton are going to be giving everyone their pension soon if 18: Clause 5, page 4, line 30, leave out “£7,475” and insert we carry on giving examples. “£5,715” GC 201 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 202

Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, my noble This takes us back to the question of whether friend Lady Turner is not here but as my amendments, people on low earnings benefit from savings, although which are grouped with this, would effectively achieve I believe that the Johnson report dealt with that very the same thing, perhaps the Committee might allow clearly. It made the point that earnings are highly me to formally move on her behalf, if that is in order. I dynamic and that relatively few people have low earnings will also speak to Amendment 19 in this group, which throughout their lives. Also, most of those on low earnings should strictly have had attached to it a current year within family units have a working partner with significant date of 2010-11, because without that it obviously has earnings and so should benefit from pension savings. other ramifications. All these amendments are, to all There is also the risk of missing out on employer intents and purposes, identical, although they have to contributions and the favourable interaction with tax be considered in the context of the review provisions credits. Perhaps the noble Lord would comment on of Clause 8, which my noble friend Lady Drake will that favourable interaction in relation to universal credit. deal with shortly. These amendments would reduce Given the acceptance of the appropriateness of the trigger to the current primary threshold for national savings from the start of a band of qualifying earnings, insurance purposes, so effectively this equates the trigger which we can agree for the current year, the argument with the starting point of qualifying earnings. We advanced for a higher trigger is a bit thin. Essentially, consider this the right place to be. it is that it will reduce the number of small pots of The pensions commission originally recommended pension savings—that is, those that would accrue to that individuals would be automatically enrolled when people earning between approximately £5,700 and they had earned, in 2006-07 terms, £5,035, which was £7,300—because that creates a cliff edge and does not the national insurance primary threshold at that time. necessarily equate with consistency of savings. In any However, it also recommended that this threshold should event, NEST is geared up to deal with just that sort of be uprated by earnings. Indeed, that is what the legislation situation. Therefore, the introduction of a trigger that said. I remember that when we were debating the Bill, is different from the start of the qualifying earnings we as a Government tried to get a little bit of wriggle band is something that we strongly oppose. room on that uprating, and a combination of Liberal Democrats and Conservatives, led by the noble Baroness, 3pm Lady Noakes, pressed an amendment that locked us Lord Stoneham of Droxford: My Lords, we have into what the legislation currently says. They were the had a discussion on some of the main reasons for the early actions of the coalition and I still bear the scars. move in the threshold. We are understanding of that One of the lessons learnt is that it is better to insert move. There are a number of reasons for it. The a figure in the legislation and have rules for reviewing documentation that we have received from a number it rather than link the threshold to a particular of organisations questions the rate of return on the measure—be it the personal allowance for income tax savings of people at these levels of earnings. or the primary threshold for national insurance We have heard mention of the replacement-to-income purposes—the reason being that it can move for policy argument. It is almost certainly true that at these levels reasons in a way that does not have any particular of earnings a lot of individuals are less prepared to regard to the impact on the auto-enrolment analysis. save. Of course, there is also the burden of administration. We know that the coalition Government have an ambition I take the noble Lord’s arguments on the threshold to move the personal tax allowance to £10,000. Should being linked to the tax threshold. You would expect us a trigger threshold or a qualifying earnings threshold to be committed to raising the tax threshold to £10,000. be tied to that, it would have devastating consequences We want neither a deterrent to doing this nor a deterrent for auto-enrolment. It would leave 1.4 million people, to those who are trying to improve their savings and three-quarters of them women, outside auto-enrolment. pensions. I hope therefore that we will have a commitment Changes to national insurance—part of the coalition to look at this each year and that it will not be related Government’s approach to tackling the deficit—mean necessarily to the raising of the tax threshold, as that that the primary threshold increases from April this would take a lot of people out of the net, which is not year, as does the rate, to £7,200, nearly closing the gap what we are trying to do. with the personal allowance. There have, from time to I accept that there is an increase in these thresholds, time, been ambitions to align the personal allowance but I want to go back. I apologise for repeating some with the primary threshold. We hold to the view that of the earlier arguments, but I want to make the point realigning the start of qualifying earnings with the that there are a number of things that we need to current primary threshold level, with clear caps on its do—or the Government need to look at—which would uprating, is the right place to be. This holds good to be helpful to people who could be vulnerable to these the pensions commission analysis that the crucial issue changes. I have mentioned the tax threshold and I was the level of replacement income in retirement—a hope that we will have a firm commitment on that. point to which the noble Lord referred a moment ago. Secondly, we will discuss later the pots of savings In our view, the case for the trigger at £7,475 is not and what people will be able to do with them. If they made. On the basis of the Johnson report, it would can be brought into NEST, and if we can encourage exclude some 600,000 people from auto-enrolment that process, that would be a most helpful change. It and would save only some £3 million a year in would make the overall change more acceptable. administration costs for employers. Indeed, one wonders I was very supportive of the arguments on multiple whether it would have some impact on opt-in earnings. It is a big issue that will grow. I am pleased arrangements, which would be likely to be more costly. that there was a commitment to 2017. We underestimate GC 203 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 204 the number of women in this position and, even issues that have to be looked at in the context of that though we may not be able to act now, we could be debate. Let me put that to one side because we will be saying that it is an issue that we will try to address as reverting to it. I apologise for the scars that the noble the new system beds in. We also want to see a degree of Lord, Lord McKenzie, bears. As a result of the level of commitment to encouraging people to stop opting uncertainty that exists in the structure of the pension out. We will address that matter in later amendments. system, we look to have rather more freedom of In the context of raising the threshold, these are a manoeuvre than he was able to enjoy. number of points that we think are important to make This Government have always supported automatic that acceptable. I accept that, ultimately, running through enrolment into workplace pensions. We believe that it this Bill is a trade-off with the Treasury on all kinds of is the step change that will make a critical difference to aspects. We must make sure that we get a good trade-off. a boost in retirement savings. However, we also believe that the new automatic enrolment earnings trigger is a Lord Boswell of Aynho: Perhaps I may briefly invite significant improvement to the breakthrough in pension my noble friend to consider one particular point about reforms that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and so the raising of the threshold. There is no need for a many other members of this and another place work commitment at this stage, although it has been implied so tirelessly to develop. Automatic enrolment for every that it will be considered. Can my noble friend give individual into pension saving is not always the right some thought to, and discuss with his Treasury colleagues, thing to do. The key question is, and always has been, the way in which this might be introduced annually whether low earners would benefit from saving, as the into the national consciousness? I hesitate to dangle noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, pointed out. It makes no another red herring before the Committee in the shape sense to require people to sacrifice income during their of the national minimum wage, on which I have some working life and redirect it into private pension saving, prior form. However, if we are beginning to look at when that saving makes them no better off. the impact on labour markets of a number of items, The nub of this issue is about getting the right and some of the misguided or inappropriate claims people saving. We, therefore, commissioned an that are made, or the fact that people say, “I don’t independent review to ensure that the scope proposed think I can afford that anymore and I want to pull for automatic enrolment by the previous Government out”, it would be useful to have a national economic was right. We wanted to look again at the point at snapshot. Although this is strictly about the labour which people should be auto-enrolled to ensure that market and within the Minister’s remit by definition we capture the right group. because he is legislating on it, it is part of a national economic snapshot. Some people may have noticed today in relation to the national minimum wage a Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Can the Minister help suggestion with which I do not agree—that we should me? He said that we should not encourage people to announce it and defer it for 12 months. I merely make save who would be no better off as a result. That was the point that probably on the occasion of a Budget it the line he used. What does he have in mind? If his would be useful to have an annual appraisal that was right honourable friend’s new state pension of £140 comes keyed in and could be related by the commentators to into play, that problem should not arise, apart from tax rates, take-home pay and so forth. It would add to for those tenants who might be on housing benefit—who clarity and transparency. may or may not be a diminishing minority. Have I misunderstood the Minister? Baroness Greengross: At Second Reading, I stressed the point that one good aspect of the trigger was that Lord Freud: I thank the noble Baroness for her it would help prevent employees and employers from intervention. Regrettably, she catches me at a time making very small contributions. This is still an important when I am not able to go as far as the Daily Mail,for point. instance, in saying what may happen as a result of discussions—which are entirely amicable—between the Lord Freud: My Lords, first, I thank the noble DWP and the Treasury in developing these proposals. Lord, Lord McKenzie, for leaping into the breach and Therefore, I cannot deal with her rather pointed query. allowing us to have this debate on the issue about the The Johnson review recommended that the personal trigger at which an individual is automatically enrolled income tax threshold of around £7,400 from this April being reduced. We are looking at the three amendments, would be the right starting point to trigger automatic together with the amendment of the noble Baroness, enrolment. The latest announced pension and benefit Lady Turner. rates bear this out. Persistent low earners get a higher The reference to the potential move to the tax replacement rate from the state, with means-tested threshold is a really important issue that deserves a benefits and the state pension, without private pension robust debate in its own right. We have an opportunity saving. This is clearly the other leg of the argument to debate it in later amendments. Rather than pre-empting about whether it is attractive for low earners to save. that debate—in which I will make a commitment—I From this April, the minimum annual guaranteed turn to the specific proposals in the amendment. We retirement income for a single person from the state have committed to alignment with next year’s tax will be around £7,140, with housing benefit on top of threshold of £7,475. This is the right direction of that. It is clear that individuals earning around this travel. However, we also need to retain flexibility for level during their working life can receive a similar the future in order that we continue to target the right income in retirement without saving. Therefore, it groups at the right times. I very much take the point of would be wrong to auto-enrol them. These amendments the noble Lord, Lord Boswell. There are quite a few seek to introduce a lower entry point for automatic GC 205 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 206

[LORD FREUD] effect of pension credit by virtue of their partner’s or enrolment. This would mean encouraging a group to their husband’s income, which, as we know, conventionally save who may receive more money in retirement from floats them off it. Therefore, they would enjoy every the state pension system than they earn during their saving; it would be worth while doing; and it would working life. give them a small pot of their own. Therefore, the There is an additional advantage to a higher earnings Minister’s argument probably does not apply to something trigger that I would bring to your Lordships’ attention, like three-quarters of the female population we are which we believe will address a concern from pension talking about. schemes and employers. One of the persistent problems with the original design of automatic enrolment was Lord Freud: I thank the noble Baroness for that to do with very small, low-value contributions on intervention and that question. We have looked closely earnings just above the automatic enrolment point. at this issue. She is absolutely right that many low We believe that the separation of the entry point from earners are second earners and have partners. The the contributions threshold creates a buffer against trouble is that it is very hard to identify them with any such small contributions. As a bonus, but not a driver, precision, which makes it very difficult to encourage if we can settle on rates that employers already use, it them to save, because many of them—we do not know would make the operation of payroll a great deal simpler. which of them—would not find it beneficial. We recognise that the increased automatic enrolment The noble Baroness will make an argument, based trigger has an impact on low earners at the point of on the discussions between the DWP and the Treasury, automatic enrolment. However, we do not believe the about what a single-tier pension would do to that position. effect is detrimental. The right people will be auto-enrolled and the lowest earners will not be. That is the right Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Transform it. outcome. Critically, we have built in a safeguard. We support an individual’s decision to save where they feel that saving is right for them. Where someone below Lord Freud: She would make an argument to that the threshold feels that they would benefit by saving, effect, no doubt. However, how that would happen they can opt in to a workplace scheme. If they earn and its timing would be very sensitive, so it is simply more than £5,715, they will get an employer contribution. not appropriate at this stage to make any presumption We have just covered that ground. which would drive one into this very uncertain territory. I am acutely aware of the passions that the raised threshold has aroused. I am honoured to have taken Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank all part in such a robust and challenging debate. However, noble Lords who have contributed to the debate on the automatic enrolment earnings trigger significantly these amendments. I had intended to say at the start of improves the operation and the targeting of automatic these deliberations on auto-enrolment, but forgot to enrolment. The new trigger ensures that the right do so, that we obviously have a number of challenges people are encouraged to save. These amendments in some areas. However, we should make it absolutely would encourage saving among a group of individuals, clear, as I hope we did at Second Reading, that we many of whom should not be saving. Therefore, we thoroughly support the Government’s decision to proceed are unable to accept them and I ask noble Lords to with auto-enrolment and with NEST. Those are hugely withdraw them. important developments to the pensions landscape. Whatever our challenges might be now, they need to be seen in the context of our fundamental support on Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, may I ask that issue. the Minister a question? He rested much of his argument on this amendment, as with Amendment 16, not so The debate has almost conflated two issues: the much on the issue of small pots as the fact that people it-pays-to-save issue, which the noble Lords, Lord Stoneham would get a replacement income in retirement sufficient and Lord Boswell, touched on, and the practical issues almost to match their wage. Therefore, it is not worth around having small pots, which the Minister relied on their saving. I raised this in terms of its relevance to and to which the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, the basic state pension and whether it will lift people referred. We need to unpick those. Perhaps I may refer above pension credit. All the Minister’s assumptions noble Lords to the Johnson report in relation to the “it are based on the belief that the household he is dealing pays to save” argument. Page 30 states: with is a single-person household. “This analysis raises significant questions about the validity of an annual earnings threshold of £5,035. Even at earnings substantially above this level, individuals see very high replacement rates from 3.15 pm the State. Based on this analysis alone, we might easily argue that Like the Minister, I want women as well as men to an earnings threshold of over £10,000 would be more appropriate carry pensions in their own right, whether or not they to encourage the right individuals (those who actually need to are in a relationship, but, as we know, 50 to 60 per cent save) to begin saving into a workplace pension. There are two key of women over the next 20 years or so will be married, reasons to question such a conclusion. Firstly, earnings are not static. For many, earnings could change dramatically over their and many of those who are not will be in cohabiting lifetime. For these people, saving for a pension whilst on relatively relationships in which they may or not be financially low income could be beneficial as it improves persistency of interdependent but which may very properly affect saving and increases income in retirement. Secondly”— their right to pension credit. Therefore, something like this point has already been made— three-quarters of the women who could be eligible for “many individuals live in a family unit. It is the circumstances of auto-enrolment if we brought the threshold down to the wider family that are more important in determining whether £5,200 from £7,500 would not suffer the withdrawal it is appropriate for a particular individual to save”. GC 207 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 208

So on the “it pays to save” argument, the report seems Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we could go to support the contention that an earnings band starting on for ever on this, although it may not be hugely at the current primary threshold is the right place to productive to do so for much longer. Of course we be. It is in relation to the practicalities that the report accept that these recommendations come from the argues the trigger. Separating the earnings threshold report, and there are obviously recommendations in and the manner in which contributions are paid will the report which, thankfully, the Government did not help to reduce the number of small pots of pension pursue. However, I would hang on to the point about savings, which are disproportionately costly. The smallest conflating two issues—“it pays to save”and the question contribution going into a pension pot will be £130 a of whom we should be encouraging to save in order to year. achieve good replacement income in retirement. As The Minister is right: of course you can always the noble Lord acknowledged earlier, the Turner argue that someone can opt in, but the whole purpose commission—I should call it the pensions commission of auto-enrolment is to challenge the inertia which has out of deference to my noble friend, who spent such a undermined our pension system for decades; it does large part of her life contributing to that—still holds: not really help with that pot. In any event, it picks up a 45 per cent replacement rate, with 30 per cent the point about persistency of savings. There might be coming from the state and 15 per cent coming from small pots to start with but if people save persistently, auto-enrolment. That band of earnings is encouraging even in respect of low income for a period, that builds people to save. Therefore, that seems to deal with up a pot which might not be insignificant. However, replacement rates and “it pays to save”. using arguments about practicalities and small pots The other issue, which I accept comes from the seems potentially to punish the wrong people, as we report about the trigger, is the practical one of dealing are saying that some 600,000 people are not going to with small pots. It is a question of where you make the benefit from auto-enrolment because we do not want judgment. We would say that excluding people from to handle small pots. NEST was created, in part at the opportunity of auto-enrolment simply because least, to handle that very issue. There are questions they are below that trigger, even though they are about the profitability of the pension sector and pension within the band of earnings that the report acknowledges providers, and there is a balance to be struck in all of should be building pension pots, is not the right thing that. to do. Doubtless we will return to this on Report. In Therefore, I very much hang on to the point that the interim, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. the argument for the trigger seems to be based overwhelmingly on the question of the practicalities of Amendment 18 withdrawn. dealing with small pots. It does not fully address “pays to save” and the question of whom we should be Amendments 19 to 22 not moved. encouraging to save. Clause 5 agreed. Lord Freud: Perhaps I may respond to the noble Lord on that and make absolutely clear the arguments that we will be taking from the Johnson review. It said Clause6:Postponement or disapplication of that you needed to look at three things: replacement automatic enrolment rates, earnings dynamics, and family make-up and characteristics. Looking at all three of those, on balance the recommendation was for a higher threshold of Amendment 23 roughly £7,400, the reason being that it got the right Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton people saving. That must be the core argument, along 23: Clause 6, page 6, line 15, leave out “three months” and with the practical argument relating to costs. It is very insert “one month” expensive to manage to small pots. The economics of running a NEST operation, let alone other operations, where it is important to get costs down, is an important Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I will also secondary consideration. However, the primary one is speak to Amendment 24. These amendments could be to get the right people saving. After all, this is, as I degrouped because they are alternatives. The fact that have said previously, the biggest experiment in asymmetric they are grouped together may have given rise to some paternalism. Let us get it right first and fine-tune it confusion. Both these amendments touch on proposals later. for postponement—effectively, the opportunity to defer automatic enrolment for a worker for up to three Baroness Hollis of Heigham: How can the noble months. Lord know whether it is right if he cannot establish As the Johnson report recites, there have been strong the family circumstances which, as my noble friend and consistent calls to introduce waiting periods from rightly said, determine whether it pays to save? employers and from many in the pensions industry. Employer groups have supported the introduction of Lord Freud: My Lords, we are all using the Johnson waiting periods, principally to reduce the administrative review as a basis. It recommends that higher threshold cost of enrolling people who are with the employer and we are following that. It is straightforward and only for a short period of time and to allow probationary has been well argued. It is a review that has been well periods to pass. They believe that waiting periods will accepted across the political and industrial spectrum, help employers to adjust to the additional cost of the and that is the basis on which we are making this employer duties and will minimise the need for refunds. change. The costs associated with deferral or waiting periods GC 209 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 210

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] rehearsing, is the question of agency workers. The have been analysed by the Johnson report and the key employer may choose to take them on from the agency features are that a three-month period will involve and pay a take-on fee, but they are, again, doing about 500,000 fewer people being automatically enrolled. substantially what they were doing before in the same Given that, on average, people have 11 different labour- place as before. It is clear that they are not covered by market interactions during their lifetime, that would the existing provisions, but it is not entirely clear why mean individuals accumulating something like three they should not be, at least in terms of equity. years’ less savings than would otherwise be the case. Someone whose work pattern is a perpetual cycle of Baroness Hollis of Heigham: That is a very interesting short-term, say, seasonal work could miss out to a contribution and I hope that the Minister will follow it much greater extent. up. I want to put to the Minister a very simple but not The amendments do two things. Amendment 23 obvious point. I understand why employers prefer a just tests and basically asks why, if there is to be a waiting period—obviously one is glad that it is not waiting period, there is the magic period of three two years, as in some conventional schemes—but even months. Why would one month not be sufficient? with three months we must recognise that, given the Perhaps more substantially, Amendment 24 is predicated figures on job turnover on page 103, with which I am on the assumption that the three-month waiting period sure the noble Lord is familiar, the median number of will stay broadly in place, but it seeks to limit the time jobs that men and women have is 11. My previous period, where the starting date of the three choices is research shows that the pattern of job turnover is the staging date—the date where an employer first different for men and women: men have more turnover comes into the system or where, say, a worker becomes in their earlier years and settle in their 40s or 50s, while a jobholder on reaching the age of 22. If the fundamental women have a higher job turnover than most men by rationale for a waiting period is not to have to auto-enrol virtue of being much more frequently in and out of somebody who will leave within three months, why the labour market and more likely to re-enter into a defer for longer than three months from when the different job. The report makes the point—although it individual is first employed? Someone reaching the does not back it up with research—that statistically age of 22 may have been employed already for three there is not that great a difference between the two. It months, three years or even longer, so why defer in is worth pointing out that if somebody has 11 job those circumstances? Similarly, at the staging date changes, which is the median according to the report, most employees will have been employed already for having a three-month waiting period represents three three months, and many maybe for years. I do not years’ loss of pension contributions. Interestingly, 26 per understand, if the fundamental rationale is to deal cent of the population on this model have between with the issues of short-term workers who leave and 12 and 15 jobs in their working lifetime, which would are likely to opt out, why we would operate a deferment mean, on average for them—if my sums are right—a date for people who have been around potentially for a loss of five years’ pension contributions. Furthermore, long time. 15 per cent have 16 jobs or more—up to 23—which One effect of Clause 6 seems to be to replace the would be an average of something like eight years’ loss existing Section 4 of the 2008 Act. From recollection, of pension contributions. this was designed to allow some deferral for DC schemes This is highly significant. Even reducing that by one that contributed well in excess of the minimum. This, month to two months would help; reducing it back to in a sense, was a reward for being a good scheme. That one month, as my noble friend has argued, would seems to have disappeared and we have this blanket make a significant contribution for those who have opportunity for deferral for everyone, whether they staying power but none the less a rapid job turnover are paying at the minimum or are doing better than for whatever reason. It may be because of a cycle that. It would be interesting to hear an explanation as between self-employment and employment—take a to why that particular provision, which was designed hairdresser, for example, for whom the conditions of to be an incentive, is effectively removed by this Bill. I employment are often very obscure, whether you are beg to move. self-employed or, even if you work in a salon, whether you are employed or not. None the less, the waiting 3.30 pm period of three months can represent over your lifetime Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, briefly before a significant loss of working contributions matched by my noble friend replies and in the spirit of the questions the employer into your pension. For that reason, as that are being fairly put by the noble Lord, Lord well as others adduced so far, I hope that the Minister McKenzie of Luton, I wonder whether the Minister will reflect on whether he could make any movement could give some thought to the position of people who in this direction. have not changed what they are doing—they are still doing it at the same place—but whose employment Lord Freud: My Lords, Amendment 23 would reduce status has changed. Quickly, off the top of my head, I the maximum length of the waiting period from three am thinking of two sets of people. One includes those months to one month. Amendment 24 applies an who come in as self-employed and are then taken on exception so that existing employees have a three-month by the firm as employees to do substantially the same waiting period. However, based on previous discussions thing. Clearly, that cannot be backdated and should with the noble Lord, our interpretation is that not be backdated from their time as self-employed Amendment 24 is intended to apply an exception so persons, but they have been there. The second case, that new employees would remain eligible for a three- which may be even more difficult but is at least worth month waiting period. I know that we are in Committee GC 211 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 212 and so one can refine the intention of an amendment The waiting period is intended to ease the to make it more precise, but that is our understanding administrative burden and has been widely welcomed of its intention. by employers. However, it means that, for those individuals Clause 6 introduces the concept of an optional who have frequent job changes, there could be a waiting period to the automatic enrolment process. significant impact on their overall pension savings. Automatic enrolment has made numerous appearances This is particularly so, as the noble Baroness, Lady in this place and another place. A recurring theme has Hollis, pointed out, if they are subject to a waiting been the extent of the duty placed on employers. I period in every post. Allowing individuals to opt in preface my remarks by putting this in context. We during the waiting period will address this imbalance are talking about auto-enrolment for pensions—the so that no one is denied the opportunity to save. As I biggest experiment in asymmetric paternalism that said, if auto-enrolment has the impact that it should the world has ever seen, I think. We are trying to encourage have, the psychology of saving should change for people to save. We forget that the encouragement many people. comes in the form of automatic enrolment. Let me Noble Lords will be pleased to hear that much of say in response to both my noble friend Lord Boswell the detail is on the face of the Bill. We propose taking and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, that if we regulation-making powers in just two areas. First, we overcomplicate this, we will not have a smooth-running will specify in regulations how quickly the employer system. Auto-enrolment is a means to an end. That must give notice to the individual about the waiting end is for the norm to be for people in the country to period. Secondly, we will set out what information save more. that notice must contain and any other accompanying The noble Baroness cited the median figure of information that the employer must provide. For example, 11 jobs over a lifetime. If that is the median, the noble workers will need to be provided with information Baroness is right: 33 months represents 7 per cent of about the right to opt in during the waiting period. It the provision of a potential pension pot. However, if is important that we have the flexibility to set the auto-enrolment has worked and people have started period and to provide for additional accompanying opting into pensions, by the time they are on their information in regulations once we have had an in-depth second, third or fourth job, they will opt in because it consultation with our stakeholders. will have become a habit. One must look at what As I said, a key aim of the reforms is to encourage auto-enrolment is, rather than become overly mechanical more people to start saving for retirement. However, at about it, which these amendments are. the same time, we have been mindful of the costs for The aim here is to ease the burdens on business. employers of implementing the reforms. We believe This simplification measure of pulling two systems that a three-month waiting period provides the correct into one—to get rid of postponement and to have one balance between easing employer burden and maximising system of waiting periods—has been widely welcomed individuals’ savings. This amendment introduces a by employers. A waiting period will free employers variable length of waiting period depending on the from the administrative burden of enrolling casual circumstances. There are two main issues with such an staff who are working for them for only a few weeks approach. First, introducing a one-month waiting period and wish to maximise their take-home pay, rather than for existing employees would remove some of the save for a pension. I am thinking of most of Sydney in flexibility afforded to employers through waiting periods; Australia when I make that remark; I think that most for example, they would not be able to stagger automatic people in Sydney come to work in London for two enrolment of large workforces. Secondly, we are keen years. to ensure that the introduction of waiting periods does not make the automatic enrolment process more Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Is that evidence-based complicated. We believe that a simple process is key to research? employers understanding and preserving their support. A two-tier waiting policy would add complexity and Lord Freud: A waiting period will also allow employers would be difficult for employers to understand or use. to align automatic enrolment processes with their It would add to the burden on employers, which is not existing processes and avoid part-period calculations the intention of waiting periods. of contributions. In addition, it will allow them to Waiting periods were designed with employers in stagger auto-enrolment of large workforces. An employer mind and have been welcomed. We believe that they will be able to apply a waiting period to all employees will provide a real easement for employers, as well as at their staging date. It will also be possible for an ensuring that individuals’ savings are protected. I urge employer to apply a waiting period when a new employee the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, to withdraw the joins the workforce or from the date when an employee amendment. becomes an eligible jobholder—for example, when they turn 22. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, of course I It is important to note that an employer will be intend to withdraw the amendment. I thank the noble allowed to apply a waiting period only if he gives the Lord, Lord Boswell, and my noble friend Lady Hollis worker information about the waiting period within a for their participation. The noble Lord, Lord Boswell, certain deadline. This will ensure that workers are made an interesting point about recyclable employees informed of their right to opt into pension saving effectively coming back in one form or another. My during the waiting period. It is only right and fair that noble friend Lady Hollis emphasised the issue of what those who wish to start saving for retirement earlier this could mean in terms of savings for people who are are not prevented from doing so. perpetually caught up in this deferral. We accept the GC 213 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 214

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I beg leave to point about some flexibility on the alignment of processes. withdraw the amendment. This does not seem unreasonable. I also acknowledge that there may be some amelioration of the lost savings Amendment 23 withdrawn. years; if people are perpetually caught up in this, opting in may catch on. However, we know how Amendment 24 not moved. damaging inertia around pensions has been, so that could not be assured. With respect to the noble Lord, I do not think that Amendment 25 he dealt with the point about the original provision in Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton this clause, which I understood was there to be an 25: Clause 6, page 6, line 32, at end insert— incentive for good provision and to give people some extra leeway in their easement. This seems to have “4A Annual report on implementation and monitoring of section 4 gone and, in effect, been replaced by a sort of blanket (1) The Secretary of State must publish an annual report easement. Although I will not convince the Minister, I about the implementation and monitoring of the postponement also hang on to my point that, if the fundamental provisions of section 4 and must lay a copy of this report before easement for employers—and I understand that they parliament. would welcome this—is that it helps them with the (2) The report required under subsection (1) must, in particular, problem and administrative costs of the coming and include— going of short-term employees, and if, as I accept, a (a) the numbers and categories of jobholders receiving three-month waiting period is needed to address that, notices that their automatic enrolment is deferred; and why on earth should it be applied to somebody who (b) the numbers of such jobholders who in respect of that has been employed for months or years who reaches employment do not become automatically enrolled.” the age of 22 and becomes a jobholder? There is no logic to the position. The employer will know the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this amendment track record of that individual, yet they are being is very straightforward and simply seeks the publication treated exactly the same as somebody who has just of an annual monitoring report concerning the deferral walked through the door. If the proposition is that you provisions provided for in Clause 4. Noble Lords will need a waiting period to deal with short-term employees, have gathered from our earlier discussion that we have I still do not understand why you need to have it for considerable concerns over these provisions and how people who have been employed for many years and they will be applied in practice, and whether their who simply, by virtue of their age, become a jobholder. application will deter individuals from auto-enrolment. 3.45 pm We are not prescriptive about the detail of the report or its timing but we need to be reassured that any Lord Freud: I tried to explain that. There are a few provisions are working fairly. As I understand it, there things happening here but the relevant thing is to try is no requirement for all employees to be treated in the to allow people with large workforces to time it so that same manner under these provisions and therefore we they can do things in bulk rather than having to need information about how this is working in practice. individualise. That will allow us to get a single system So the intent of this amendment is clear. There needs running through rather than having to have separate to be some process of reporting so that we can understand systems. Administrative simplicity has been the guiding in practice how these provisions are working. I beg to goal here and it is also the reason why we have abandoned move. the concept of postponement, which was again a slightly complicated two-tier system. We are trying to get to one tier and a great deal of administrative Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, simplicity. Lord McKenzie, for this amendment. As he has pointed out, it would compel us to publish a report every year Baroness Hollis of Heigham: The Minister has already, on the implementation and impacts of the waiting-period and I am glad that he has, sold the pass on that by provision under Clause 6. As we have just discussed, allowing voluntary enrolment for young people under 22 Clause 6 introduces the concept of an optional waiting or for people, mostly women, earning between £5,200 period into the automatic enrolment process. We agree and £7,500. The employer is already going to have to that the effects of the waiting period should be monitored. identify and respond to particular individuals rather We have made a commitment to fully evaluate the than to cohorts of a labour force that may be moving effects of the reforms and how they are delivered. This tidily through the system. While we welcome the will include a proportionate check that the legislation concession of voluntary enrolment, the noble Lord is operating as expected for individuals, employers and cannot now pray for administrative simplicity in cohorts the pension industry. As part of this, we intend to when he has already sold the pass on voluntary enrolment. monitor employers’ use of waiting periods and the effects on workers’ savings. It is important that we Lord Freud: There is a great deal of difference retain the flexibility to design appropriate methods between having a system that allows opt-in at any and processes for this evaluation in response to changing stage compared to a system that puts an obligation on circumstances. For example, our decisions about who an employer to do something at one month for some we survey, how and how often may change over time. people and three months for others. There is a difference Our plans for monitoring the progress and impacts and I would not agree that any pass has been sold on of the reforms will be set out in a detailed evaluation this. strategy which we plan to publish this year. We also GC 215 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 216 intend to publish key findings from our evaluation. I know that we have to ensure that everyone is We therefore feel that there is no need to legislate aware of their rights, and that it is important that what specifically to ensure monitoring of the waiting period is enshrined in the Bill is communicated properly. provision, and that to do so may unintentionally constrain However, we must remember that this will all be very us from adopting the most appropriate approach to new. It will be new for employees and new for employers. evaluation in future. I therefore urge the noble Lord, The very fact that this will be enshrined from the Lord McKenzie, to withdraw this amendment. beginning—from the date that the Bill becomes an Act—means that it is important that a signal is sent to Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the noble Lord every employer and employee that they have rights in for his response. I was reflecting on how many times I this matter. It is important not just to have it in the Bill have deployed exactly those same arguments in his but to ensure that we get it right from day one. There is position. I am not sure that they grow more convincing. a great expectation that this will happen. It will be However, I understand and am grateful for what the difficult for many very small employers to adjust to noble Lord said about an evaluation process. I understand the changes that are coming. What I am looking for is that the strategy will be published later this year; we a form of letter, with a standard set of words, which will see what sort of timeframe is attached to that. I an employer can hand to their employee and that will am grateful for that and, accordingly, I beg leave to remove any extra bureaucratic burden. withdraw the amendment. There is no additional bureaucratic burden established by this amendment, but it gives a clue as to the Amendment 25 withdrawn. preparation that will be essential. If I were a small employer, having heard about this in whatever way in Clause 6 agreed. the coming weeks and months, I would want to know fairly quickly what I am going to have to tell my employee If an employee can say to an employer, Amendment 26 “What about me?”, I would want to know that there was somewhere where I could download the appropriate Moved by Lord German piece of information about rights, particularly in this 26: After Clause 6, insert the following new Clause— respect. As we wish simply to express in the Bill the “Deferral period rights of the individual, I beg to move this amendment. The Secretary of State shall by regulations issue guidance to employers and jobholders explaining the rights of Baroness Hollis of Heigham: This is an important employees during the deferral period, including the right amendment, not just for this but for all the other areas to opt in to the scheme during this period.” where we are looking at voluntary enrolment. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will reassure us on the Lord German: My Lords, I will not keep the Committee employer making sure that the employee in the waiting long, given that the Minister has, in his response to a period can voluntarily enrol into a NEST scheme previous debate, accepted this amendment in that he before it becomes automatic. I hope that he will also has said he will introduce a requirement for the reassure us that employees earning above the LEL, but correspondence that is sent to employees to include a below the automatic enrolment threshold will be made statement of the rights of that employee under this aware of their rights. That could involve quite a provision. Therefore, the only argument that I wish to considerable number in jobs where, for example, very retain in this discussion is about whether the rights of many women work part time; I am thinking of retail, the employee should appear as an item in the Bill, where women might work two days a week and so on. rather than simply relying on the important statement I hope he can give us some reassurance as to how he is that the Minister has just made. going to operate a nudge, where there is opt-in, as opposed to where there is auto-enrolment. At the moment, the protection for this matter in the Bill relies entirely on proposed new Section 4(1)(b) in Baroness Drake: My Lords, I express my support Clause 6(2), which says that, for the sentiments and views of the noble Lord, Lord “any prescribed requirements in relation to the notice are met”. German, in moving this amendment. I, too, noted the That is obviously as broad as you could get. However, Minister’s comments on regulation on this matter. As the purpose of this amendment is to ensure that those we move nearer to the commencement of auto-enrolment jobholders whose waiting period is being enacted are in 2012, I am also conscious that both the Department informed of the rights to which they are entitled, for Work and Pensions and the pension regulator will particularly the right to opt in to the scheme as soon need to prepare for a major programme of communication as they wish. I understand that this information will and guidance to workers and employers. Can the be provided by regulation. I am absolutely certain that Minister assure us that sufficient funds will be made that will happen, given the Minister’s commitment. available for this scale of communication and guidance However, I have always been of the view that in any programme? As the Minister said, this is the biggest Bill, where the rights of an individual are at stake, it is ever example of asymmetrical paternalism, and, given important to uphold those rights in the Bill itself. That the constraints on public expenditure, the old phrase means that it should be a very simple statement. It about not spoiling the ship for a ha’porth of tar, is means establishing that those rights will be communicated extremely important in this instance. and that there are rights to be had. It is a very I, too, agree with the noble Lord, Lord German, important agreement, which one should have in front that, if individuals are to be given the right to opt in an employee at the time. during the deferral period, it has to be a meaningful GC 217 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 218

[BARONESS DRAKE] here who has been in any way involved in questioning right, understood both by the employer and by the Ministers will be wary of the words “we will bring employee. A meaningful right to me means three forward regulations as soon as possible”. I remember things: do you know you have it; do you know how to “summer” turning into “late summer” and then “early exercise it; and do you not suffer a detriment in autumn”. The seasons will just vanish. I wonder whether exercising it? That is quite important if the three-month at some stage we might come back to a precise timetable waiting period is to have integrity for the reasons given for enacting the guidance. However, on the basis of as to why a three-month period is needed and the the very detailed description of what will be provided, individuals none the less can opt in. It is quite important I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. that guidance and culture meet those three requirements. I hope there is guidance to both the employer and the Amendment 26 withdrawn. employee that makes the opt-in opportunity meaningful. Clause 7 agreed. Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank my noble friends for this amendment, which would require us to make sure Amendment 27 that guidance is issued to employers and jobholders explaining their rights during the waiting period under Moved by Lord German Clause 6, including their right to opt in. Let me try to 27: After Clause 7, insert the following new Clause— describe what our plans are in this area and explain “Automatic enrolment date why putting it in the Bill could potentially be The automatic enrolment date will be no later than a counterproductive. We aim to specify in regulations cumulative period of three months’ earnings above the how quickly the employer must give a notice to the threshold, whether consecutive or not.” individual about the waiting period. We will also set out in regulations what information that notice must Lord German: My Lords, this is a relatively contain, and any other accompanying information the straightforward amendment to provide some certainty employer must provide. In particular, this will include in a situation where an employee could have their information about the right to opt in during the waiting auto-enrolment deferred more than once because they period. failed to reach the earnings threshold in one or more We recognise the need to provide certainty as quickly months in the three-month waiting period. Perhaps it as possible, as my noble friend Lord German pointed might be sensible if I gave an example. A jobholder out. We intend to put out the draft regulations after works for two months and their pay is above the what we call a “soft consultation” period in April. We threshold, but in month 3 their pay falls below the intend in this way to inform employers of the requirements threshold. Then, when month 4 arrives and their pay around waiting periods as soon as possible. To use the perhaps goes back to being above the threshold, it is waiting period provision, employers will have to provide not clear whether that triggers a new three-month information to individuals about their right to opt in. starting period or adds to the two months when it It is essential that employers understand the operation previously happened. Whether the waiting period begins of the waiting period and their obligation to provide again in month 4 or concludes is the key question here. information to affected workers. That will be done Should the three months’ earnings be cumulative or through the Pensions Regulator, who is developing consecutive? clear guidance for employers explaining their duties This could be the case for many workers in the under the reforms and including information about leisure and tourist industries where work is perhaps the waiting period. The Pensions Regulator plans to seasonal and in the catering trade where it is often publish the guidance in the current year. related to the number of customers and people are called to work more or fewer hours according to the 4pm demand on their services. So a situation where people We agree that jobholders need to understand their may not reach the threshold in one month but have right to opt in above the LEL, as the noble Baroness, reached it in the previous two months is not unlikely. Lady Hollis, pointed out. That is enshrined in Section 7 It seems quite unfair if, as soon as they fall below, they of the 2008 Act. The regulations under this Bill set out have to start again. I remember somebody who formerly that employers should provide jobholders with information worked for me who then went off to train as a barrister about this as well. and it took him many months to get his final qualification The noble Baroness, Lady Drake—with her concern, because he could not get to the number of dinners that I guess, about the war being lost for want of a nail—asked he had to achieve in the right order. Every time he whether sufficient funds would be made available. I missed one, he had to start again from dinner number am confident that adequate funds will be available for one. It seemed a strange mechanism and we do not this very important exercise. want this archaic methodology in this Bill. I beg to We therefore feel that there is no need to legislate in move. the Bill for provision of guidance and information on waiting periods, so I urge the noble Lord, Lord German, Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble to withdraw his amendment. Lord, Lord German, has raised an interesting point, which I hope the Minister can clarify. I assume that Lord German: My Lords, my amendment would the situation is that, if you have got to month 3 and simply have enabled the guidance to be provided. The you do not have qualifying earnings, there is nothing Minister has described what will happen, so I shall at that point to trigger automatic enrolment. When avoid dancing on the head of a pin. However, anyone you next have your qualifying earnings is presumably GC 219 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 220 when you would be automatically enrolled. Certainly, individual’s automatic enrolment eligibility continuously if you had to start again, that would add injustice to throughout the waiting period and to keep a record of something about which we are already not very happy. the period of eligibility accrued during the waiting period. Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Employers requested the waiting period as an Lord German for this amendment, which would restrict administrative easement. To make the process so an employer to using one waiting period per worker burdensome would negate its value. At this stage, it is and would ensure that automatic enrolment would crucial that we get the reforms bedded in and that we take place once a worker’s earnings had reached the ensure that employers find it easy to comply with these earnings threshold for three months, whether those new duties. It is therefore critical that the processes are three months were consecutive or not. Thus the single simple for employers to understand and use. In the three-month waiting period could be accrued over a absence of any persuasive evidence of a problem, we far longer period of time where the individual’s earnings feel that it would not be right to introduce greater fluctuate. I should take this opportunity to clarify for complexity and a significant burden to a process whose the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, how it would actually very purpose is to offer administrative easements to work. If you had low earnings for the first two months employers. and hit the target at the third month, you would be I offer noble Lords my assurance, however, that we auto-enrolled. However, if you did not hit it in that are committed to fully evaluating the effects of the third month, you would effectively be back to your reforms and how they are delivered. As part of this, we dinner problem and have to start again. That is how it intend to monitor employers’ use of waiting periods would work. and the effects on workers’ savings. I urge the noble As I explained, Clause 6 introduces the concept of Lord to withdraw this amendment. an optional waiting period into the automatic enrolment process. This is central to our commitment in this Bill Lord German: My Lords, I am still a little confused to rebalance the administrative burdens on employers over the explanation. I understand fully the point while ensuring workers’ access to pensions saving. The about somebody hitting the relevant target in the third waiting period is designed to meet employers’requirements month. However, my question was the other way by being simple and easy to understand and use. This round—where someone hits the target in months one is clearly crucial to its success. At the point at which and two but does not hit it in month three. In seasonal the employer applies a waiting period, they will not be worker terms, this could happen if someone was picked required to undertake a check on whether the worker up and employed in May, perhaps worked through is eligible for automatic enrolment. The employer must May, June and July and found a bad—wet or check eligibility at the end of the waiting period and something—August, for which they could not get the we are keen to avoid them having to check it twice or money in. The important issue is simplicity but also more. understanding. It may be that a three-month period The waiting period consists of a single block of applies, but it was not absolutely clear from the Minister’s time, regardless of whether the individual’s eligibility reply when, once you have a first waiting period, the for automatic enrolment fluctuates during that period. second test would occur. What if you fail to meet the If the worker satisfies the automatic enrolment eligibility criteria that he has just described in that first three-month criteria at the end of the period, they will be enrolled period? You will then need to have another piece of into the employer’s scheme on that date. If not, the information made available to the employee to say, employer will monitor the worker’s status until they “You have not quite done it but this is the way you go satisfy the eligibility criteria. At that point, the employer next”. It seems to become far more complex if you may apply a further waiting period if they wish. It cannot have it in some way accumulatively worked need not be for the full three months. out. I will obviously withdraw the amendment. However, I hope that the Minister will come back at some stage We recognise my noble friend’s concern that workers with some further explanation of the anomaly of the with fluctuating earnings could miss out on pension people who are in the position that I have described, in saving due to the use of multiple waiting periods. which they pass the threshold in months 1 and 3 but While it is difficult to estimate the likelihood of this not in month 2, yet wish to maintain their position occurrence, our analysis suggests that few people are within the company. likely to have fluctuating earnings around the level that they traverse in and out of automatic enrolment Lord McKenzie of Luton: Before the noble Lord eligibility. Are we, therefore, devising something very withdraws his amendment, I wish to follow up on that complicated for a problem that is pretty small, which point. I was somewhat surprised by the answer that is what our analysis suggests? It is also the case that, the Minister gave. There is a simpler process. Somebody for those on sustained low earnings throughout their becomes employed; they have their three-month waiting working life, state benefits can replace most income in period and, at the end of the three months, you look retirement. Common sense suggests that it would not to see whether they have qualifying earnings and need be rational to lever such people into private savings. It to be auto-enrolled. If they do not, presumably they is important to remember that they will have the right are in the same position as everyone else who has been to opt in at any point during the waiting period. around for a long while—you continue to monitor This amendment would add a substantial additional them at an appropriate date to see whether they have burden and complexity to the waiting period process qualifying earnings or if they have reached the age and would not be easy for employers to understand of 22. It will be the same for everyone. Is that not the and use. It would require the employer to monitor an simpler way to do it? I do not understand why there is GC 221 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 222

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Baroness Hollis of Heigham: How? the need to start the cycle again, which is what the Minister said. That seems to be fundamentally wrong Lord Freud: I have given a commitment that we are and not the simplest route. going to monitor how all this works on a regular basis and I feel confident in saying that, if we find that it is a 4.15 pm genuine problem, we will have to move in. However, it Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, before the Minister is pointless to try to pre-empt something that looks as responds, perhaps I may briefly share with the Committee though it is too small an issue to be concerned with. a slight concern that I have, which is very much subsidiary to the powerful point that the Minister has Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I do not understand already made about the need to maintain simplicity how the Minister can monitor the difference between and make the scheme doable by employers. Behind the two months and the week’s lay-off, be it in the earlier remarks that I made, which I shall not rehearse, hairdresser’s shop or anywhere else, in order to restart concerning agency work and self-employment, and the dinners as it were, and the non-occurrence of behind the slight concerns that I have here is an voluntary enrolment. I do not understand how anxiety about employers who are perhaps less well the Minister can ensure that the person not joining the intentioned than those of us who were employers had pension scheme is in the latter category and not in the hoped to be. Therefore, I stress to the Minister that it first. I do not see how he will monitor it, because he is extremely important that we monitor any devices will not keep the records. that are used, in effect, to subvert these waiting periods. Lord Freud: We have committed to monitor this The Minister is absolutely right to introduce them to situation quite widely, in particular how the waiting simplify the scheme but, at the same time, we need to periods are working. It is essential to get it right. We come down very hard on people who use them as an have not developed the specification of that monitoring, opportunity to avoid their obligations. but we will do so. We will watch closely that and other issues. Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their observations and repeat how the structure works. Baroness Drake: The three-month waiting period The cycle would be starting again. However, I emphasise gives rise to concerns over bad employers. However, that we think that the group involved would be on the monitoring point, the Pensions Regulator has extraordinarily narrow. We could overcomplicate this an obligation to monitor and look for non-compliance. issue, because in practice many employers will probably One of the ways in which they will do so is by looking just enrol those people the following month, which at the number of employees in a firm who have been they are quite free to do. They can opt in. As I said, we auto-enrolled, because they will at least get a sense will be monitoring this very closely. If it becomes a from the numbers involved whether there is a flashing substantive issue and we can see some peculiar games red light over compliance. The problem is that the going on, we will have to move in and sort it out, and Pensions Regulator will focus on where the biggest we will do that. risks are and look at the bigger employers first. If the compliance hazard is around small employers, there Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I should like to reinforce has to be discussion with the Pensions Regulator, that. I was struck by the point made by the noble because compliance monitoring is resource-intensive. Lord, Lord Boswell. When I was doing some pension Even if one was running that argument that the problem work on things such as buy-back and so on, I was can be picked up in compliance monitoring, the struck by the number of women in a variety of jobs requirement on the regulator to be risk-focused and who told me that their employers very deliberately therefore to target where they think the greatest non- capped their hours at 15 to avoid national insurance. I compliance issues would be, or to get scale of coverage am afraid that I can see very small employers—whether on non-compliance, could be a problem. they run a launderette, a newsagent or whatever—having people working for them for two months, laying them Lord Freud: I repeat that we are committed to off for a week and then starting them in work again. looking at waiting periods and there is a general duty They could, for possibly quite a long time, avoid on the Pensions Regulator to look at compliance. If automatic enrolment and therefore avoid paying a we suspect any kind of systemic abuse, our aim will be pension, which they would be reluctant to pay because to find it in our monitoring. For example, we might they would regard it as a burden on their business. I look at it from the other end and survey individuals, have no idea how many small employers might abuse perhaps those in the low-paid environment, who are at the system in that way, if I can put it like that, but I risk. However, this is an issue that we are alive to, and fear that among small employers there will be quite a this debate has made us even more so. I therefore need strong incentive to do that. I wonder how the Minister to thank the noble Lord for raising it. is going not only to watch that but to remedy it. Lord German: My Lords, I would normally be Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, swayed by the persuasive eloquence of my noble friend Lady Hollis, for that point. Clearly, in all these areas the Minister, but the more that I ponder the issue, the there is potential for abuse. However, it is very important more it seems to me that there are routes for escape that we do not overcomplicate the system in case there that do not err on the side of the rights of the is abuse, which in this event is likely to be rather small. employee. My amendment proposes a simple solution: If, as the noble Baroness fears, it does become an that, in relation to the threshold, the three months of abuse, we will be monitoring it. the waiting period should be cumulative. It is as simple GC 223 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 224 as that. It would then be quite easy for a jobholder Lord German: On that basis and in the spirit of who believed that they should be enrolled to prove it, asymmetric paternalism, I am grateful to accept the because the information would be there in front of Minister’s review of this matter and his confirmation them. We are going into a cycle of repetition. On this of a simple fix if one can be achieved. I beg leave to issue, I am afraid that I am not quite as convinced as I withdraw my amendment. should be by the Minister’s argument—although I am convinced that he will reflect on it further, because the Amendment 27 withdrawn. discussion around the Committee has raised more questions than answers. Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): The whole point of the auto-enrolment process is My Lords, this might be a convenient moment to have to challenge inaction, to get people saving and to a short break. The Committee stands adjourned until make it the right thing for everyone to do, both employers 4.40 pm. and individuals. In withdrawing the amendment, I 4.28 pm express the hope that my noble friend will reflect on the words that have been spoken around the Committee Sitting suspended. today and perhaps give us some sense of security when he comes back with any further changes that he wishes 4.40 pm to make to the Bill at the next stage. Clause8:Review of earnings trigger and qualifying Lord Freud: Perhaps I could just interrupt. What I earnings band have not made adequately clear, for which I apologise, is how big this problem might be. The universe of people who earn between £7,000 and £7,475 is 140,000 Amendment 28 people, so we are talking about very small numbers. Moved by Baroness Drake Moreover, they would have to be fluctuating at the wrong time. We could be setting up a very complicated 28: Clause 8, page 7, line 22, leave out “, 5(1)(a)” system to look after a very small number of people. Baroness Drake: My Lords, I shall also speak to We cannot quantify this exactly but I give an order-of Amendments 29 to 32. Please forgive me if I take a figure to give noble Lords a feel for it. We are talking little of your Lordships’ time on this matter, because I about between 8 million and 9 million extra people feel strongly about it. The policy of auto-enrolment—or going into pensions, so this may be just too much of a asymmetrical paternalism, because we should give the burden relative to the potential number of people friend of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, his due whom we are protecting. recognition—has the broad support of all the main Lord McKenzie of Luton: Will the Minister just political parties and stakeholders. That broad support help me on one point? I do not want to prolong this. If and consensus are important. However, let me capture the complexity he suggests arises from the need to our concerns, which led to the tabling of this and the monitor cumulative earnings over a two-month or associated amendments. three-month period, I can accept that, but we do not The definition of the workforce who should be need that. If we just had the proposition that somebody auto-enrolled into a workplace pension and benefit waits for three months and if at the end of three from the contingent employer compulsory contribution months they do not have qualifying earnings and are and the tax relief or credit is the product of both therefore not auto-enrolled, you simply roll them on thorough analysis and the iterative process required to to the next point that they do have qualifying earnings. deliver such a widespread consensus. The definition of You put them in the pot the same as anyone else. Is the workers to be covered by the new employer duty to that not a simpler system than having an alternative automatically enrol, the band of qualifying earnings system whereby you have to see who has been previously and the minimum contributions are all captured in deferred and had a waiting period and keep the clock legislation. The intended outcomes include the need to running on them individually? I would have thought achieve a very wide coverage of the working population, the simpler system was not to have to take account including low-income to moderate-income earners, to of cumulative earnings but, once you get past that facilitate them saving from a relatively early age given three-month period, simply to check, as you would the long years of saving needed to achieve an adequate have to for everyone, whether they have reached the income in retirement, and for the design of the private age of 22 or qualifying earnings, et cetera. There is pension system, as well as the state system, to work for quite a lot of disquiet around this. We are not trying to women. be difficult. I urge the Minister to take this away On taking office, the Government commissioned because I see it as something that could be brought Paul Johnson and his colleagues to review the auto- back on Report. enrolment policy and its provisions. I commend and thank the Government for holding to the main thrust Lord Freud: My Lords, I can see when I am up of the policy that was enshrined in that consensus and against the wall. I am not completely insensitive. I will captured by the previous Government through the look to see whether there is some simple fix and, if 2008 Pensions Act. I am sure that maintaining that there is, I will write to noble Lords. However, it would position did not come without its challenges, not least, have to be very simple, because the risk/reward in no doubt, in exchanges with the Treasury, so I would terms of burden versus people who are at risk is just be the first to acknowledge my thanks to them for on the wrong side. It does not seem to add up to me. holding to the main thrust of the policy. GC 225 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 226

[BARONESS DRAKE] One has only to look at the figures on women’s Our concern, however, is that Clause 8 gives to a employment. Some 7.63 million women work full-time Secretary of State too great a power to significantly and 5.87 million work part-time, compared to change the population of workers who will be the 13.54 million men working full-time and 1.94 million beneficiaries of auto-enrolment—in particular, the power working part-time. These figures also show two peaks to raise the age requirement for a qualifying worker in part-time working by women, one of which straddles above the current age of 22 and the power to raise the 30s and 40s age group and one which is post-50. significantly the earnings threshold at which a worker The latest labour market figures reveal that some would qualify for automatic enrolment. 27 per cent of the workforce is now part-time. So The purpose of Amendment 28 and those associated many workers should not be excluded from the benefits with it—Amendments 29 to 32—is to probe why and of auto-enrolment by the earnings trigger tracking in what circumstances the Government would wish to such a high increase in the income tax threshold. raise the qualifying age. It is also to limit the Secretary My arguments for not raising the earnings threshold of State’s powers on the extent to which he or she can to £10,190 in 2011-12 earnings terms are supported by increase the level of the earnings threshold at which the Government’s own impact assessment documents the automatic enrolment of a worker would be triggered and the findings of the Johnson review. Excluding and to require the Secretary of State to provide an 800,000 people and losing £40 million per annum of impact assessment to accompany any order to increase employer pension contributions does not support the or decrease any of the amounts that he is empowered overarching objective of the reforms to enable low to to increase or decrease under this clause. moderate earners to save. As has been said several 4.45 pm times in various debates on amendments, many or most very low earners are women who live in households I turn to the qualifying age for auto-enrolment, with others with higher earnings. I repeat the quote which is 22. It is recognised that very young workers from the Johnson report: and students frequently change jobs. To avoid too many small pots in a concentrated period of time, and “These may well be exactly the people who should be automatically enrolled”. to avoid young people getting into a cultural habit of opting out when auto-enrolled, it is reasonable to set Rather than excluding large numbers of women from an age of around 22, which also has a synergy with the auto-enrolment, the Government should look at innovative minimum wage provisions. However, one would not ways of increasing their participation. I know my want to set the qualifying age too high because an noble friend Lady Hollis has several proposals. To individual would lose valuable early years. We know paraphrase my noble friend’s excellent and concise that people need to save for a very long period to build sentence from her Second Reading speech, on a threshold up a reasonable pension pot, and that an early start of £10,190 a woman on half of average earnings will allows the pension pot and the value of investments to not be auto-enrolled into a workplace pension, so a build up. Furthermore, given that women are more woman on half of average earnings may have no likely to work full-time in their 20s, but that there is a pension pot at all. peak of part-time working in the female labour force The hard-fought-for European part-time workers for those in their 30s and 40s, excluding these earlier directive gave many women access to their employers’ years will reduce many women’s pension savings in workplace pension scheme for the first time. It would periods when their earnings will be higher. Given that be a truly retrograde step if the earnings threshold we need to hold to a private pension settlement that rose to the level that reintroduced a barrier to so many persists over the long term because pension savings are women participating in workplace pensions. We know a very long-term project, I ask the Minister why the that, increasingly, women approaching retirement are Government want even to consider raising that age not going to be part of an on-going relationship, so of 22. Reserving powers to make short-sighted or many will not be able to rely on their partner’s income. pragmatic adjustments to the qualifying age for auto- They must and need to save in their own right. A key enrolment does not appear very desirable. principle of pension reform, a very important part of I turn to the matter of the earnings threshold that the consensus—and one should not underestimate has to be reached for a worker to be eligible for it—is that it should enable women to build up pension automatic enrolment into a pension—the earnings benefits in their own right. The higher the threshold of trigger. The Government intend to set this at £7,475 in earnings for auto-enrolment, the less the reforms will 2011-12 earnings terms so that it is aligned with the work for women. But raising the earnings threshold threshold for income tax. However, Clause 8 amends too high, and certainly to £10,190, also affects the Section 14 of the 2008 Act and explicitly allows the persistency of savings for men as well as women. For Secretary of State to increase this earnings threshold both, the Johnson review and the Pension Policy Institute in line with increases in the income tax threshold. confirm that earnings are not static. Relatively few Given the Government’s aspiration for a future income people have persistently low earnings over their lifetime; tax threshold of £10,190 in 2011-12 earnings terms, if most low earners go on to earn more. the threshold were to rise to this level it would exclude Saving while on a lower level of income will still be a further 800,000 workers in any one year from auto- beneficial—first, because of the contribution the pension enrolment, 76 per cent of whom would be women. It saving makes over the individual’s working life, and would have a disproportionate impact on those working secondly because of the enhanced persistency of saving part-time. Consequently, of the group targeted to resulting from someone remaining qualified for auto- benefit from workplace pension reform, 66 per cent enrolment. They remain locked into that culture of would be men and only 34 per cent would be women. auto-enrolment. Persistency of saving is as important GC 227 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 228 as investment returns in achieving a decent pension part-time workers, mainly women. They are the majority pot. To put it at its simplest, or even crudest, beta of those earning between the NIC limit and the personal returns on 40 years of saving is better than alpha allowance. The TUC believes that if the Government returns on 10 years of saving. I do not wish to argue were to take forward the proposals, which they have against changes to the income tax system that would voiced, to raise the basic personal tax allowance, the benefit those on low and modest incomes, but it is not numbers excluded from auto-enrolment will grow. We necessary for what may be considered meritorious have all said that we are in favour of auto-enrolment, reforms to the tax system to result in unfairness or and that we want to get as many people auto-enrolled inefficiencies in the design of the private pension as possible because they will then get the benefit of system. Raising the earnings trigger in line with the employer’s contribution. As the gap between the significantly increased income tax thresholds denies contribution and enrolment thresholds grows, there is access to incentives to save for men and women. All of a danger of a sort of cliff-edge and that the newly an individual’s pension contribution is disregarded auto-enrolled may decide to opt out as they see a from their income when calculating entitlement to tax noticeable chunk of their earnings going in pension credit, but tax credits for some can produce an implied contributions. rate of tax relief as high as 50 or 60 per cent. There may be various other ways of dealing with it, Amendments 28 to 32 in the names of my noble but the gap is not a good idea. It tends to make the friend Lord McKenzie and myself not only seek to whole thing less simple. People are caught up in the express our concern about the qualifying age; but also gap and do not receive what is intended to be of seek to restrict the Secretary of State’s ability to raise benefit to them, which is auto-enrolment. I hope that the earnings threshold trigger for auto-enrolment to the amendment moved by my noble friend Lady Drake no more than either the general level of earnings or receives favourable consideration by the Government the percentage increase in the lower earnings limit for because there is a serious point to be made. I shall not national insurance purposes. The intention is to keep press my amendment. broadly stable the proportion of the population covered by auto-enrolment. I recognise that Amendment 33 tabled by my noble friend Lady Turner is seeking to Lord Freud: Uprating and revaluation measures, achieve a similar outcome. Under the provisions of especially for pensions, can be challenging to get right this amendment, the ability of a future Secretary of and hotly debated. The uprating arrangements for State to issue an order which carves out a significant automatic enrolment are proving no exception. However, section of the workforce from benefiting from automatic before going into those arrangements, I need to make enrolment into a workplace pension is constrained. clear to the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, that nothing in the Bill introduces a power to change the age The noble Lord, Lord Turner, argued that successive criterion of 22. The flexible uprating power in Clause 8 post-war Governments had introduced changes to the applies only to the earnings trigger and thresholds. It UK pension system which made it both unfit for does not apply to age criterion. We agree with her that purpose and unsustainable. He said there needed to be 22 is the right age for automatic enrolment to kick in. a broad consensus within society as to the pension settlement, so that it would hold over the long term, across successive Governments, as it needed to be 5pm sustainable. People needed confidence and saving for I return to uprating and thresholds. As we have adequate pension provision was long-term. I often discussed, the Johnson review was commissioned to used to put it more crudely: death by incremental test whether automatic enrolment had been designed adjustment that lost sight of any strategic outcome. I to target the right people at the right time. We welcomed am worried that we see signs of repeating that error, the findings of that review and believe that its because what might be meritorious in a tax system recommendations are sensible and balanced as a package. does not necessarily drive what is sound in the design The review concluded that the automatic enrolment of a private pension system. earnings trigger should be aligned with the tax threshold, It is important that the parameters set for the which was then £7,336. We accepted that proposal and workplace pension system give the coverage and the have committed to a figure of £7,475, which is an confidence to the workforce. It is also important that update to Johnson to reflect the personal tax threshold any fundamental changes to those parameters are fornextyear. driven by the needs of the pension system itself, and The presumption of that review was that the trigger that the reasoning for them and the impact of them would remain aligned with the tax allowance unless are transparent and supported by a consensus. That is future action by government resulted in a fundamental why we have tabled Amendment 32, which requires a change in their purpose or in the relationship between full impact assessment to accompany any order that them. The Johnson review took a clear view on the increases or decreases any of the amounts covered by right direction of travel. But for reasons that I shall this clause. I beg to move. continue to outline, we believe that we need to retain flexibility. We do not want to tie the hands of this or Baroness Turner of Camden: My Amendment 33 is future Governments in this area. in this group. I was prompted to table an amendment We have listened carefully to employers and pension to this clause by the TUC. It wrote to me to point out providers and taken note of their views, both on the that the trigger of £7,475 at 2011 is in excess of the most appropriate thresholds and the potential for national insurance threshold, which at present is £5,715. deregulation. We have retained a core building block It points out that that is likely to affect a number of from the pensions commission, and taken the views of GC 229 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 230

[LORD FREUD] those who should not. If, at the same time, we can the trades unions into account, in setting the threshold align with a threshold that employers are already for qualifying earnings— earnings on which contribution familiar with and minimise administration burdens, so levels are based—at the national insurance primary much the better. threshold. The economy has changed since the pensions Automatic enrolment has to be sustainable. My commission reported. The automatic enrolment threshold worst fears are that we set rules which scoop up people of around £5,000 that was set back in 2006 will not be who cannot afford to take a hit on their pay packet. If relevant for 2012, so we have changed the entry point. we get the trigger wrong—if we set it too low—we risk The amendments seem to be in search of a guarantee: high levels of opt-out. Once we do that, we turn that the trigger for pension saving will be set in complete people off pension saving, even if we have applied isolation from prevailing personal tax thresholds. Two asymmetric paternalism to get them to save. To get the of the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, trigger right, we need flexibility. and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, go one step Today’s debate is further ample evidence that the further by seeking to limit future rises in the value of automatic enrolment earnings trigger is a matter of the automatic enrolment trigger to rises in the general deep interest and concern to this House. For that level of earnings or the percentage increase in the reason, we want to ensure that the House has an national insurance lower earnings limit. But setting ongoing opportunity to debate this issue. We recognise the right trigger is not about a relentless chase towards that including such a flexible power to amend figures alignment with a possible £10,000 tax threshold. The that appear in primary legislation represents a very rate must be right for the time. Automatic enrolment is broad power, and that is why the uprating order will be about targeting the right group. subject to an affirmative resolution procedure. It will For those on sustained low earnings throughout mean that this complex issue, and the exact rates set their working life, state benefits can replace most for the launch of automatic enrolment, will be the income in retirement. It does not seem logical to force, subject of a full debate to ensure complete transparency. encourage or—if noble Lords prefer—apply asymmetric It would be unusual to commit to an impact assessment paternalism to such people to save in a private pension. in the Bill, as requested by the noble Baroness, Lady As the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, pointed out, beta Drake. However, I make a commitment to provide an savings might not be a good thing right now given the impact assessment for the next five years, up to the state of the markets; I think that I would prefer a few 2017 review and shortly afterwards. This will allow alpha returns at the moment. time for the reforms to bed in and for us to understand It is in practice very hard to distinguish a clearly the wider landscape. Therefore, there will be full identifiable group or individual who should definitely information on the uprating order as a basis on which not be saving. Therefore, the level at which we set the the House can conduct the debate. automatic enrolment trigger must strike a balance. We I hope that I have been able to set out the case for think that the proposed threshold of around £7,400, flexibility and the need to future-proof these provisions. the current tax threshold, strikes the right balance I also hope that I have provided the reassurance on between maximising pension saving for those for whom transparency that noble Lords are seeking with their saving is valuable and minimising the number captured request for an impact assessment. However, I regret for whom it is not worth while to save. The state that I cannot give a guarantee that the trigger for pension minimum income guarantee already provides pension saving will in future be set in complete isolation an annual income in retirement of around £7,100, from prevailing personal tax thresholds. I am afraid with housing benefit on top. we are unable to accept the amendments and I ask the However, an earnings trigger of around £7,400 may noble Baroness to withdraw this amendment. not be right in the future. The relationship between prices and earnings is changing. The Government Baroness Drake: I thank the Minister for his response have a commitment to remove the lower-paid from the but I am not persuaded by his arguments to feel tax net. Further, the shape of state pensions may confident. I come back to the point that I made in change in future, although I cannot discuss that much moving the amendment: the UK has a history of more. making what it feels are good incremental adjustments to the design of the pension system for short-term Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Wimp. [Laughter.] considerations. Inevitably, 10, 20 or 30 years downstream, there will be a sub-optimal outcome in the strategic Lord Freud: All this is saying to me that, right now, sense, and there will then be a rush around to try to uprating measures for entry and savings levels need to find plasters to deal with that. I worry that the ease be flexible. Therefore, we want to maintain flexibility with which the earnings threshold could be raised so to consider a wide range of economic measures. Pensions significantly is a potential example of the same error cast long shadows. Pension law has to last for the long being made in the future. term. We believe it is prudent to build in maximum The Minister said that the Government wanted to flexibility for all eventualities, as regrettably we do not retain flexibility. I do not think that I am arguing have 20:20 foresight. about the Government not retaining flexibility; I was I sympathise with the intention behind the amendment seeking to put a limit on the extent of that flexibility and I understand the concerns about any unfettered that can be addressed through an order, because I discretion or an unrestrained dash to a £10,000 trigger. think that the threshold for earnings is so significant. However, the primary aim here is to ensure that we The Minister said that he had listened to employers target the people who should be saving, while excluding and pension providers. That is good, because employers GC 231 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 232 are very important in this new settlement. However, What the amendment seeks to do is to provide some there are also consumers and citizens whose views and protection for individuals who have a number of small interests in this matter are equally important. These pension pots. We are aware that NEST is meant to reforms represent a contract with citizens, whereby the supply a gap in the market for those companies and Government are expecting them to take greater individuals unable to find pension provision elsewhere. responsibility for providing for their own income in Inevitably, small saving pots will be left in a variety of retirement, and also for removing the state from any different schemes which will be a problem, not only for responsibility for any earnings-related second-tier the employees but also for the employers. So in the provision. It is therefore very important that the employers’ interest of simplification, every attempt should be views are engaged because they are part of the tripartite made to encourage some consolidation of these pension delivery of this. I do not demur from that at all. pots and we would like to see the Secretary of State Equally, the view of the citizens, or those who are able making regulations to that effect so that these transfers to speak for them, is also to be represented. Something can easily happen. I beg to move. as significant as the trigger for the earnings threshold will be very important for them and for the outcomes 5.15 pm of their saving activity. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness In the amendment, we were seeking to give the Harris of Richmond): I must tell your Lordships that Government the flexibility which at least kept broadly there is a printing error in Amendment 34A. After constant the proportion of the population covered by “repayable” it should read “by cash considered” and automatic enrolment, with some degree of variation not “but cash considered”. either way. But if there is to be a major change in the threshold, I do not believe that that should be done by an order—even by an affirmative order. It is of such Amendment 34A (to Amendment 34) significance to the outcomes to the pension reform Moved by Lord Boswell of Aynho programme over time and there should be a high level 34A: Line 7, at end insert “or, in cases where the value of an of awareness of the consequences. People should individual fund does not exceed £1,000 and is not otherwise understand the impact and all interest groups should repayable, but cash consideration if the beneficiary opts for this” be involved in that decision. The Minister referred to a possible change in the Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, I rise to move state pension system in the future. Speculating, the my sub-amendment, to use European parlance, as change will be accelerating the flat-rating of the state corrected by the noble Baroness’s perceptive intervention, second pension and integrating and bringing forward and to speak to my noble friend Lord Stoneham’s the two into a replacement single state pension. Presumably substantive amendment and around the parallel thoughts that would strengthen the argument that raising the of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis of Heigham, on earnings trigger, other than by reference to earnings or this matter. My amendment is slightly different in comparable situations, should not be raised significantly. character, but all these amendments are about essentially I remain concerned because the arguments deployed the same problem. I quote, with approval, the words of by the Government for wanting to retain the level of the Minister only this afternoon, which I jotted down flexibility that will allow them to raise the earnings for greater accuracy: trigger so high are not very persuasive. I beg leave to “It is very expensive to manage small pots”. withdraw the amendment. That is exactly what the problem is about. There are a number of complexities in the consequences of this. It Amendment 29 withdrawn. is expensive for employees and employers, or pension Amendments 29 to 33 not moved. administrators. It is extremely expensive for the Inland Revenue and gives rise to lots of often misleading tax Clause 8 agreed. codes, which overlap and never seem to get synchronised and sorted out. It causes difficulties for taxpayer compliance and taxpayer understanding when these Amendment 34 bits and pieces come in from sources that are probably Moved by Lord Stoneham of Droxford long forgotten and do not add up to very much. 34: After Clause 8, insert the following new Clause— On Second Reading I quoted examples. I will be a “Transfer to national employment savings trust little more pointed than I was then. They were actually In section 16 of the 2008 Act (qualifying schemes) after my wife’s two pots of about £20 per annum and about subsection (2) insert— £30 per annum. Goodness knows what the administrative “(2A) The Secretary of State must make regulations to enable cost of carrying that burden is. I am pleased to see the transfers of qualifying pension schemes into a national employment Minister chuckling. As I recall the situation, my wife savings trust.”” had already consolidated a number of pension entitlements and had one go at this. She had some entitlement Lord Stoneham of Droxford: This amendment tries under the teacher pension scheme but no actual pension to deal with the problem of stranded pension pots. and she had had that out. You cannot consolidate The wording is inadequate and rather than reading, more than once. I may have got that wrong, such is the “transfers of qualifying pension schemes”, complexity of this. In other words, there was nothing it should read, that she could really do about them. The proposals, as “transfer of individual entitlement into the national employment I understand it from my noble friend and the noble savings trust”. Baroness, are basically that NEST should be an optional GC 233 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 234

[LORD BOSWELL OF AYNHO] We discussed earlier the question of the number of repository to handle them. I can understand that the job changes and we know that, as I said, the median Minister may be a little diffident about taking it all in number of job changes is around 11—25 to 26 per while he is getting this extremely imaginative scheme cent will have between 11 and 15 job changes and under way, but there is at least the potential for a default others will have even more than that. That means, mechanism to take this over. Were my energies not to depending on the rules of individual schemes and how have faded, I would have sub-amended my noble long people are required to work before they can join a friend’s Amendment 34 to read “may make regulations” scheme—it could be two years or up to two years, or rather than “must make regulations”, but let us not your contributions could be returned to you and you debate that at this hour. The idea would then be that might decide to hold them in a pot—that it is likely NEST would be a place where these could be sorted that low-paid employees and some not necessarily out. low-paid employees, but people who have moved a lot An alternative approach would be to enable people in their first five, 10 or 15 years of earning, will build to have a slightly more relaxed view about taking these up some pension entitlement in five of those jobs. At, in cash, which is what my sub-amendment in effect say, £11,000—half women’s average earnings—with a proposes. One always has a whiff that the Inland fairly conventional DC scheme, which I know applies Revenue has a certain concern here. I am quite sure in a lot of the charitable or voluntary world, a five plus that some elaborate scheme could be devised of tax five would mean that such a woman would have something avoidance where people could have hundreds of miniature between £1,000 and £1,200 a year in her pot for each pots and somehow take it all out in cash with the full year in her job. That could mean that she had five or benefit of the accrued tax reliefs, ending up with a six pots of anywhere between £1,000 and £3,000, fortune. Perhaps this has never happened, but I am depending on the rules of the scheme. The question quite sure that the Inland Revenue would be there then is what happens to those pots. alert to make sure that it did not. I am cross with myself because I missed a trick and I also feel, in relation to the suggestion made by the I should have put it down as an amendment, because noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, and the thinking behind one way to approach this, obviously, is to follow in a it, that it is not absolutely essential that this should be slightly larger form the thrust of the argument of the done by NEST. It could be that, if the rules were made noble Lord, Lord Boswell, which is to raise the trivial more flexible, existing administrators could take this commutation limit, which at the moment is £18,000— on. I am pleased to hear her acknowledging that. I do 1 per cent of the lifetime savings allowance. A trivial not wish to create an unnecessary controversy in the commutation limit of, say, £25,000 or £30,000 would Committee, but I have a feeling that the words “any pick up quite a lot of these very small pots without willing provider” might even be considered. If, for having to hassle about whether they were at or above a example, in a case such as that of my wife, where there certain level. Of course, some providers—some banks was an entirely trivial and ridiculous entitlement that and so on—will allow you to bring together five or six could have been bolted on to her existing private small pots and consolidate them, because they are pension arrangements, somebody could say, “This is then worth handling. the value of the scheme; will you take it over?”, and In addition, the Government propose in due course pay it possibly as an agent—I am not concerned with to remove annuitisation at the age of 75. However, the the legal basis of this—I think that we would be Treasury—bless it—has insisted on a quite absurd de making some progress. minimis figure of £20,000 income. That is quite I feel strongly about two things. The debate in this unnecessary; it merely needs to be about £8,000. Of Committee has rightly focused on mini-jobs. We are course, if the new state pension comes into play at now talking about mini-pensions, which are often, but £140, you will not need any de minimis for failing to not always—and it is not contingent on income or annuitise, because it will float you off all public funds, anything else—a by-product of mini-jobs, and good apart from housing benefit. Therefore, with, I hope, luck to people. They may in certain cases, though not the new state pension of £140, not only would NEST in the case of the lady whom I mentioned, be quite be safe but so would all other small savings schemes. central or disproportionately important to the income You would not then need things such as trivial or the top-up of income of the individuals involved. commutation rules because the choice would be left We should be moving towards a system that is less entirely to the individual. We would be kicking out a complicated, more flexible and less obsessed with the lot of silly mess and tangles that have been imposed by possibility of theoretical minor difficulties with tax. the Treasury, which is more concerned to avoid £1 being We should somehow cut through the legal thickets and lost through manipulation of the tax system than it is deliver something that is cheaper, easier to understand to encourage £10 being gathered into the savings system. and worth having in the hands of the beneficiaries I consider that to be really rather sad. I am sorry that I who have properly earned it. missed that point, but we will come back to the trivial Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I have high commutation issue later if it seems worth doing so. hopes for the thrust behind these amendments, given If the person in question cannot trivially commute that all sides of the Committee today share a similar and she is handling pots of, say, £3,000 each, she will take on the problem. I know that the Minister shares be getting somewhere between £1 and £4 a week from this view and I hope that he can give us some positive each of those small pots. The Pensions Advisory indications of ways forward. I am particularly happy Service—I should declare an interest as a board member to follow the noble Lords, Lord Stoneham and Lord of TPAS—has been very concerned about what noble Boswell, on this. Lords have called “orphan assets”. At the moment, a GC 235 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 236 poor woman can use these small pots altogether, but well, but those are second-order issues in relation to she may end up with, say, £20,000 or £25,000 in her the substantive matter that has been raised. The time NEST pot, have three, four or five other pots of is now right to deal with that. £3,000, £2,000 or £1,000 and lose all those small pots, which are above the trivial commutation figure, are 5.30 pm too small to be annuitised and cannot be bundled together. She would effectively lose a third of her Lord Flight: My Lords, I support these amendments lifetime savings, even though she is on a very low but express a caveat about something that could lead income. No one would regard that as decent. Therefore, to the wrong decisions. It may be wrong for people I think that she should be able to bundle or consolidate who have relatively small entitlements from defined her various pots. For this purpose, I am talking about benefit schemes to take transfer values and move them NEST but I am perfectly happy for it to be any willing into a money purchase pot such as NEST, even though provider. The important thing is that she can access all small amounts of money are involved, because transfer her savings. values have been getting relatively mean under the changed rules. I have always thought that NEST itself What would be the advantage of my proposal? It is could have a problem. Managing large amounts of very simple. First, above all, the person in question money in an optimum manner is quite a difficult thing retains the full value of all her savings, rather than to do. Therefore, although I am sure that NEST will possibly losing some of them. Secondly, it represents be run relatively safely and sensibly, it will have to be simplicity for her in retirement, as she could be handling run on a blue-chip investment basis. Therefore, it is just one flow of pension income rather than multiple likely to underperform some other funds. However, flows of small pots. Thirdly, there is a sort of best-value the principle of allowing consolidation and people to option going on here—a version of the open-market take the cash out if it is peanuts has to be right. option. In this Bill we have not yet talked about disinvestment strategies, but I suspect that she would get a better return on disinvestment were she to purchase Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I support an annuity if all these small pots were bundled together the notion behind these amendments. At Second Reading and consolidated into one scheme, rather than if she I drew attention to the possibility of people arriving at were trying to play around with various small pots to retirement with lots of little pension pots and not avoid losing them. knowing what they would be entitled to. That sometimes In my amendment, I stipulate that the transfer happens now; people phone up and say, “Am I in your should be able to take place the year before retirement pension scheme? I just don’t know”. They reach retirement simply to recognise the concerns—they may be and, if they have been working for around 40 years, exaggerated but they certainly exist—among some they do not know what they have. It seems sensible to pension funds that existing scheme providers will not have some mechanism whereby one’s pension entitlement want a wholesale flood of money from their schemes is, as it were, collected as a cumulative amount of under management going earlier into NEST, possibly money. People would then know that they have access because NEST will appear so much more attractive in to this cumulative amount and the pension that is terms of the reduced fees that will be charged and generated from it. In this sort of system we have the therefore the amount that will be available for opportunity to do something like that. It would be a accumulation. I do not mind that, but they might, and very good idea and I congratulate my noble friend therefore it may be a price that has to be paid. Lady Hollis on what she has come up with in Given the support around the Committee today, Amendment 35. The noble Lords, Lord Stoneham given that I know that the Minister is sympathetic to and Lord German, certainly had something similar in the issue that has been raised and given that we have mind with Amendment 34. The notion is a good one, produced two or three different ways in which we can whichever amendment is acceptable to the Government. approach this problem, I hope that we will get a sympathetic hearing from the Minister. Lord Freud: My Lords, I must start by declaring an interest. I think I have one of these infuriating little Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, given the hour, stranded pensions. It is the most annoying thing. You I rise briefly to say that we have put our names to the look at the file, look at the headline and close the file amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady because dealing with it is unendurable. I am far too Hollis because we support the thrust of it. We certainly polite to complain to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also support the thrust of the amendment in the name for not doing anything about it. If I thought about it I of the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, as amended by would resent him deeply every time I looked at the file. that in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Boswell. I take the opportunity to let the Committee know, This issue seems to have been around for a long time. through these amendments, what we are doing to The Minister may well push that back at us and ask consider how transfers across the industry, particularly why we did not do something about it, and that would of small pension pots, can be made easier. The Making be a good question. Automatic Enrolment Work review, carried out last If I have any caveat at all in relation to NEST, it is summer, recognised that facilitating transfers was critical one that the Minister himself may have. That there to the success of the workplace pension reforms. It should be no transfers into NEST was part of the believed, however, that the issues went beyond NEST. consensus, although the consensus has been a little When automatic enrolment becomes the norm, there disturbed by the Bill, so that does not preclude this is a much higher risk that pension savings, particularly being opened up. It changes systems and the costs as for lower earners and people who move jobs frequently, GC 237 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 238

[LORD FREUD] scheme is not necessarily a good thing to do for will become fragmented in several small pots—a point individuals, as the noble Lord, Lord Flight, just pointed made so eloquently by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, out, as it will depend on the merits—the risk, charges just now. and growth—of the fund they are transferring into The Government are already acting on the compared to those of the fund they are transferring recommendation of the review to consider how transfers from. It is not necessarily a good thing for pension across the industry can be made easier. The DWP is schemes either, which, though they would no longer working alongside the Treasury, HMRC, the Financial need to pay for the maintenance of a potentially Services Authority, the Pensions Regulator, employers smaller pot, would need to pay to transfer the fund and pension providers to understand better the burdens out. Hence, the work we are already doing to see what employers and schemes face when administering small measures we can sensibly take to minimise industry pots, and to identify any barriers facing members. burdens while delivering the best possible protection of individuals’ retirement outcomes. We want to ensure In addition, the DWP recently published—on that any solution will stand the test of time and meet 31 January—a call for evidence on the regulatory the needs of all pension schemes and their members. differences between occupational and workplace personal I do not want to prejudge the outcome of our pension schemes. We are seeking to address existing considerations, but I can see the merit in a number of rules which could impact on the success of the reforms, your Lordships’ arguments, including that of the noble such as rules on early scheme leavers and disclosure. Lord, Lord Boswell, that we should take into account The call for evidence is likely to consider actions better giving the individual a choice, where they have very to manage small pension pots. This call for evidence small pension funds, to take the cash. It is, of course, closes on 18 April. Our response will be released later the very smallest pots that cause the biggest problems, this year after we have considered stakeholder views as even if transfers can be facilitated, the frictional and evidence of burdens and costs. administrative costs have a proportionally higher impact. Her Majesty’s Treasury recently held a call for The noble Lord talked about sums of £20 and £30—I evidence on early access. This reflects the Government’s shudder to think of the proportion of administrative commitment to consider ways to boost individual costs involved in doing anything with them. saving and to foster a culture of personal responsibility Our ambition is that NEST will complement rather over financial choices, particularly in encouraging saving than replace existing good-quality pension provision. for retirement. The document sets out the available Changing the provisions now to allow NEST to accept evidence on early access to pension savings, some transfers in during the critical implementation period potential models for early access and the potential could undermine that aim. By 2017 the reforms will benefits and risks, and sought further evidence from have been fully implemented. We will have more evidence interested parties. It included a specific question on on the effect of the reforms as a whole, including the ways to improve the transfer process and on whether impact of NEST on the market. While I appreciate the there is a case for introducing further flexibility in the principle behind these amendments, I urge the Committee trivial commutation rules. The call for evidence closed to bear with us while we get to the heart of this on 25 February. HMT is currently considering the difficult and complex matter. On that basis, I urge responses and will publish its findings in due course. noble Lords not to press their amendments. So, across all three of these areas, we are seeking to identify options to improve transfers so that individuals Baroness Hollis of Heigham: That is helpful and I can get the most out of their savings. understand the issues associated with it, but can the I appreciate the interest that noble Lords have Minister give us some guidance on the timescale? This indicated in the overall issue of transfers, which is is a problem now, as my noble friend said. Women, in much wider than the restrictions that are currently particular, are low-income savers and have small pots placed on NEST. The restrictions on transfers into which they are losing. They are being stolen from NEST are intended to focus the scheme on its target them with nobody being a thief but with women market, particularly as the reforms are staged in, enabling certainly being the victims. Given that this Bill is still its administrative processes to be simple, leading to going through this House and will then go on to the lower running costs and creating safeguards against other place, presumably once it has finished the Welfare levelling down. NEST can already accept certain transfers Reform Bill, the noble Lord has until June or July or in—for example, where a member with less than two some time like that before the Pensions Bill completes years’ service has the right to a cash transfer. This its passage through both Houses. Can he come up allows jobholders who move from an employer not with some proposal by the summer in which we can using NEST to one offering NEST to transfer their corral these small pots so that they are not lost cash transfer sum into NEST. The Pensions Act 2008 permanently to those who can least afford to lose them? commits the Secretary of State to review the effect of Lord Freud: My Lords, I am pleased to respond to NEST transfer restrictions in 2017. But we are doing the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. She will see by the work now, before 2017, that will bring together evidence amount of work that we are undertaking and its and analysis from a broad base. complexity that getting a comprehensive review is not As I know noble Lords appreciate, there is no going to be possible in a matter of months. We are straightforward solution and the outcome of any quick clearly talking about a matter of years to lock this fix may not provide the universal remedy for individuals situation down. I refer back in politest possible way to and pension schemes that we might hope for. Aggregating what the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said. This has small pots by transferring them into another pension been a problem for a very long time and it is very GC 239 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 240 complicated, involving a lot of different systems and 5.45 pm structures of pension provision. We need a holistic Lord Stoneham of Droxford: My Lords, I am grateful solution. We have the work in train. We will get there for the generous support that my Amendment 34 has but it will not be a matter of months, I regret. been given and for the very generous response of my Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, it would be noble friend. Two points stood out: first, everybody very simple, at least as an interim stage, to build on recognises that facilitating transfers is critical and that what the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, was talking about it should go beyond NEST; and, secondly, we should and either have a cap on the size of individual funds look at the principle of early access. In that spirit, I am that can be taken as cash or to raise the trivial very pleased to withdraw my amendment. commutation limit under specified circumstances. That would be very simple and would not get in the way of Amendment 34 withdrawn. further more fundamental and wide-reaching reforms, Clause 9 agreed. of which I understand some of the bigger complexities— particularly between DB and DC schemes, although Amendment 35 not moved. obviously DB tends to be confined to the public sector. But the noble Lord could make some interim arrangements which would not preclude an intelligent, Amendment 36 sensible and decent wider response in the future. At Moved by Baroness Hollis of Heigham the moment real people are losing real money who can ill afford to do so. 36: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— “Voluntary and additional voluntary contributions into NESTs Lord Freud: My Lords, I accept the point that the After section 15A of the 2008 Act (as inserted by section noble Baroness makes that people lose money because (Transfers-in before decumulation)) insert— of this. They have been losing money for many years. “15B Voluntary and additional voluntary contributions into This problem has not suddenly emerged. Regrettably, NESTs because of the amount of work now under way, it (1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations provide that a would be premature for me to give any time indication jobholder who in a preceding tax year or years after the about whether one could envisage some certain quick commencement of NESTs has not paid contributions up to the maximum employee contribution limit for the year or years in fixes that would go along with an overall strategy. It question may at any time pay voluntary contributions up to the just depends. Noble Lords will understand that I am total of the maximum employee contribution limit for each of simply not in a position to say that we could apply those years. some quick fixes along way. They may be possible but (2) The jobholder shall not be entitled to require the employer I certainly cannot indicate that that will be the case or to pay the employer’s contribution on voluntary contributions the timing of it. I would love to be able to announce a paid under subsection (1). wonderful transformation so that with one bound we (3) The jobholder may exercise the right to pay additional broke free. But I can assure noble Lords that there is a voluntary contributions equal to the total amount of the contributions major process in train to get a holistic solution to the which would have been paid by the employer if the contributions issues of savings and these pots, and we are moving at in subsection (1) had not been voluntary. a rapid speed to get that done. (4) Voluntary contributions shall attract tax relief at the applicable rate. Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, I never mind (5) For the purposes of this section, rounding-up under section 9 above shall apply.”” saying this, but the Minister has given us an almost entirely satisfactory response. I can understand the noble Baroness’s desire to get on with this, so perhaps Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I think that many of I might counsel the Minister to look at two interim us would like the annual cap of £4,200 on contributions approaches in parallel. First, if he could do anything to NEST to be removed. However, I again understand along the lines of my amendment, it would help. the industry’s worries about losing funds under Secondly, we should try to avoid these schemes management from the better-off. I accept that a person accumulating further. If he can stop the rot and prevent would have to be a reasonably high earner to hit that any more of these little pots being created from now cap of £4,200 each and every year. The amendment on or fairly soon, it would be very helpful. However, I would simply allow the making-up of missing years—I fully understand, not least because of the comments am rather keen on making up missing years whether in made by my noble friend Lord Flight, that these are the basic state pension or in NEST. The person concerned complicated matters. I suspect that we will have only may have enjoyed a small legacy, perhaps on the death one go at this—it probably will not be in the Pensions of a parent and the sale of the parent’s home. They Bill with which we are now dealing—and we need to may have had a small lottery or premium bond win. get it right. All power to the Minister’s arm on the He or she may have traded down their home to somewhere overall concept, but I hope that he will remember at smaller while in their fifties and have thought that it the same time to look either at whether existing made very good sense to add some of the modest arrangements and payments can be smoothed or at equity available to their pension fund as a form of stopping the rot by preventing any additional schemes saving. They may have divorced and received from it a being created. However, in the spirit of what has been modest financial settlement of a few thousand pounds a very constructive debate, I beg leave to withdraw my or so, some of which they would like to put in their sub-amendment. pension to make up for the years that they missed. I make it clear that there is no suggestion of there being Amendment 34A (to Amendment 34) withdrawn. any parallel employer contribution; the amendment GC 241 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 242

[BARONESS HOLLIS OF HEIGHAM] NEST has been designed to provide a low-cost, portable would simply allow an employee, if they wished, to pension scheme for low to moderate earners. We want add to their pension pot. The money would not come to encourage people, where possible, to save more than from any other savings, nor would it be a transfer. It the minimum. The NEST order and rules already would be, so to speak, new money. Although I doubt allow a member to make contributions up to the that it would occur very often, being able to add to annual contribution limit in the financial year in which their pension pot in this way would still offer women the contributions are made, as the noble Lord, Lord in particular, whose financial and, frankly, personal McKenzie, pointed out. and private lives are highly unpredictable, some extra The current limit is already set at such a level that it flexibility in the way in which they build their NEST enables median earners to contribute as much as twice pension. I beg to move. the minimum contribution requirement in a tax year. Lord German: My Lords, I want to say a brief word Allowing NEST members to make use of unused about Amendment 38, which is in the group. Clearly, annual contribution limits in subsequent years would the Johnson review looked at this issue and having undermine the purpose of the annual contribution weighed up both sides of the argument, recommended limit. This limit was designed to ensure that NEST that the Government should proceed to legislate. The does not adversely impact on existing good-quality words of the recommendation were quite ambiguous. pension provision. While I understand the principle It said: behind this amendment, we should not forget the “We are therefore recommending that the Government legislate purpose of NEST. This is to enable millions of people for the removal of the contributions cap in 2017”. to participate in pension saving from which they are One could read that as recommending legislating currently excluded because they do not have access to in 2017 for removal of the contribution cap, or as suitable workplace pension provision. Filling this supply recommending legislating now. Actually, the text of gap requires NEST to be both low-cost and as the Johnson review does use the word “now”—in straightforward a scheme as possible. Adding to the other words, it should be part of this Bill—but because complexity of administering NEST through complex neither the Minister nor the Government are on record arrangements for calculating the maximum annual yet as saying why they have not chosen to follow that contribution would undermine those aims. advice, it would be very helpful if this amendment Moving on to Amendment 37, the noble Baroness could be probed in that manner. raises another important point, about how the annual Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, perhaps I may contribution limit should be calculated. The limit, comment briefly. I can see the thrust of my noble alongside the transfer restrictions, is designed to focus friend’s amendment. I remember that, when we debated NEST on its target market of low to moderate earners. the cap, we debated whether there should be an additional This is to ensure that NEST will complement existing lifetime element as well. I think that, at one stage, we good-quality pension provision, not replace it. debated whether there could be a two or three-year The baseline contribution limit was set at £3,600 in period when one carried forward the unused amount. 2005 terms, following wide consultation on the proposals My recollection is that, other than the annual cap, in the White Paper, Personal Accounts: A New Way to which is as it now is, all that fell by the wayside, but the Save. Responses on the appropriate level for an annual Minister may be able to update us on it. contribution limit were based on analysis of several It seems a good idea to me to be able to use the factors, in particular, the potential impact on existing headroom in respect of unused bits, although I do not schemes and the ability of individuals to save flexibly think there is anything that precludes someone who is, for their retirement. In line with the provisions in the or might become, a member of NEST making a scheme order, NEST Corporation has adjusted the voluntary contribution up to the limit. The limit is contribution limit for 2011-12, prior to scheme launch, not, as I understand it, an employee and an employer to £4,200. The current method of setting the annual limit; there is a limit in respect of contributions for an contribution limit strikes the right balance. It ensures individual. Certainly, for the reasons that my noble that NEST focuses on its target market of those friend advances, if there were opportunities to use excluded from pension savings as a result of market some headroom to get more into NEST, that would be failure, while providing for a level of contributions good, so far as the removal of the cap supports the that is sufficient to allow employers and individuals to thrust of that. Again, given the consensus that was contribute more than the minimum required. there and the existence of the cap, everything that has the potential to disturb that in the interim makes life a I turn to Amendment 38, tabled by my noble friends bit more difficult, although it would be good if it Lord Stoneham and Lord German. This puts forward could go at the earliest opportunity. the recommendation from the Making Automatic Enrolment Work review that the Government legislate Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness now to remove NEST’s annual contribution limit from and my noble friends for bringing the important issue 2017. That review recognised the importance of the of the NEST contribution limit to the attention of the NEST contribution limit during the introduction of Committee. I shall deal with the amendments in the the reforms. It acknowledged that there was broad order they were raised. The noble Baroness, Lady consensus behind the reforms, and that NEST’s role Hollis, has raised, through Amendment 36, a vital was to fill the supply gap that those in the existing point about the ability of NEST members to make industry currently find difficult to serve. The review contributions to their retirement pots that exceed the saw the contribution cap as a key lever in ensuring two minimum contributions required by automatic enrolment. things: that NEST remains focused on this target GC 243 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 244 market as the reforms are staged; and that during this and cost. As you start to introduce these kinds of rules important period it does not adversely impact existing going backwards and forwards on what people can good-quality pension provision. However, the review contribute, it gets very complicated and you start to team considered that once the reforms were fully build in the kind of complexity that we are all complaining implemented it may be appropriate to remove the cap. about. Stranded pots are just one area generated by This is both to ease the administrative burden on the complexity in the system. Therefore, the rationale NEST and to avoid any unintended message that there here is: keep it simple. was somehow a maximum appropriate level of pension saving. Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, given the Great minds think alike. Section 74 of the Pensions time, I do not think that there is any point in my Act 2008 already requires the Secretary of State to pursuing this matter further. However, if not during appoint a person to review the effect of the annual the course of this Bill, perhaps subsequently we will contribution limit in 2017. By this time, the reforms come back to this bundle of issues, because it clearly will have been fully implemented and we will have has to be addressed. I beg leave to withdraw the more evidence on the effect of the reforms as a whole, amendment. including the impact of NEST on the marketplace. I Amendment 36 withdrawn. am not saying that the review team was wrong. I am saying that, given that it saw 2017 as the right time to Amendments 37 and 38 not moved. remove the cap—by then we will have much more evidence of the impact of NEST in the real world—2017 is also a more sensible time to consider changing or Amendment 39 removing the NEST annual contribution limit. Since Moved by Lord German this can be achieved by secondary legislation, there is 39: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— no need to legislate now. I understand the principles “Deferred charges behind these amendments. However, now is not the The Secretary of State shall by regulations provide guidance time and, given the scope individuals already have to on the level of deferred pension member charges.” make additional contributions and our intention to review the contribution limit in 2017, I urge the noble Lord German: My Lords, this amendment relates to Baroness to withdraw this amendment. deferred charges, and it deals with the part of the benchmarking of quality of schemes into which jobholders Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I can well understand will be automatically enrolled. why pension providers are—let me put it politely— As we have discussed on many occasions, a major apprehensive about the competition offered by NEST segment of the workforce for whom auto-enrolment is in terms of fees and charges and, therefore, want to aimed are likely to be frequent movers between jobs protect the funds under their management. I accept or, indeed, those holding multiple jobs during the year. the noble Lord’s argument that the bigger issue of One practice that is current in some personal pension getting rid of the cap altogether may have to wait until schemes is increasing charges when people change 2017, although I am disappointed about that. What I jobs. An example of that might be where the current do not understand is why there should be any threat to employee who is an active member of a pension scheme existing alternative providers for people who are in is actively contributing to a pension scheme, paying NEST and who, two or three years down the line, find perhaps about 0.5 per cent in management charges. that they have missing contributions, possibly by virtue However, a former employee—that is, a deferred member of maternity leave or whatever. I cannot see how that of a scheme—is charged 1.5 per cent, which is much situation—making good the shortfalls of previous more than NEST will charge. Interestingly, the pension years—is in any sense a threat to any other provider. companies operating in this manner describe this as an Because they are in NEST, they will not be in any “active member discount”, but the consumer association other provider’s scheme. NEST is not, therefore, in any Which? describes it, more appropriately, as a “deferred sense, competition to them. member charge”. I support the second of these amendments, although These charges clearly penalise people who regularly I understand the challenge that it might represent. switch employers, and it is particularly appropriate for However, the first amendment would simply make many of the employees for whom auto-enrolment is good the headspace in back payments, and I do not targeted. Therefore, the concern here is that there see why that would represent a challenge or a problem should be a set of guidance, instructions or regulations of any sort. Given that people occasionally get modest to ensure that, in assessing the quality of schemes sums of money, it would seem to be consistent with which may be alternatives to NEST, these issues are our wish to encourage people to think about their benchmarked appropriately. retirement and to be able to make that money available Alongside this, there are concerns relating to the for NEST. I do not know whether the Minister has FSA proposals to allow employers to negotiate a anything further to add; he may feel that he has said consultancy charge with their advisers and then deduct all he is going to say on this. those charges from the employee’s pension pot. The general purpose and thrust of the amendment is to 6pm guard against excessive charges and to ensure that the Lord Freud: I thank the noble Baroness for giving Government benchmark the sort of quality that they way and for giving me the opportunity to clarify want in schemes which are to operate alongside NEST matters. This is simply about administration, simplicity in the open market. I beg to move. GC 245 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 246

Baroness Drake: My Lords, I share the concerns of Lord Freud: My Lords, my noble friend Lord German the noble Lord, Lord German, and I am pleased that has tabled an amendment to give the Secretary of he has tabled this amendment, as it allows us to debate State powers to make regulations to issue guidance on a matter which is of increasing concern to consumer the level of charges made by defined contribution groups, such as Which?. pension schemes to deferred members. These deferred There is a real issue of how the Secretary of State member charges, as he called them, are called “active exercises his powers under the 2008 Act in terms of member discounts” by the industry. Effectively, they setting qualifying standards. Here, we are seeing two offer lower charges to active members as an incentive, tensions coming into play. With higher levels of scheme and perhaps a reward, for continuing loyalty. membership, which automatic enrolment will bring, The DWP has done some robust research on defined increasingly employers will not want to retain former contribution schemes sold in the 2008-09 financial employees—the leavers—in their trust-based DC schemes. year. That showed that—somewhat to our surprise— They will prefer to transfer them out or default them charges typically do not exceed 1 per cent across the into some form of personal pension. That is not market, including trust-based and contract-based schemes. necessarily an irrational position for an employer to Where different rates were applied to active and deferred take but the former employee—the leaver, the deferred members, this tended to be in the form of even lower member, the not-contributing-to-that-pot member—will rates for active members, which begins to suggest that move away from the preferential charges structure that a true discount is emerging for active members, rather their employer may have negotiated into a personal than a penalty for deferred members. It may be that pension scheme with a much higher level of charge. consumer groups are saying that, as the pressure on Where the employer workplace pension is delivered charging comes down, the gains are taken by active by a contract-based provider, both the employer and members rather than deferred members. That might the contract provider may have an interest, for different be one way in which we would like to look at it. reasons, in defaulting a departing employee or leaver Baroness Drake: Even though the evidence that the into a personal pension which will very likely have Minister refers to shows that he is referring to 1 per higher charges, the employer motivated by not wanting cent, on a base load contribution of 8 per cent we to be responsible for a former employee and the insurance aspire to charges of the order of 0.3 per cent and company because it does not want to maintain the 0.4 per cent. A charge of 1 per cent is not a statement lower charges for a non-contributing former employee. of success. We are trying to deal with two things. The As the noble Lord, Lord German has said, we have inactive or non-contributing member should not suffer already seen instances of insurance companies offering a disproportionate penalty, which they would not suffer active-member discounts, which, like Which?, I always in NEST. Equally, at the same time, charges should be say can be described as inactive-member premiums in brought down overall. I would not be very content if terms of the charges raised. I know that this is something we were willing to settle on something of the order of preoccupying the National Association of Pension 1 per cent. One would hope that, with mass auto- Funds because it wants to set a quality mark and it enrolment, the market generally would move to 0.3 per knows that this is a particular problem. cent. If not, perhaps the provider should not be in the In a world of auto-enrolment with an average of market providing products. 11 job changes over a lifetime and the prospect not only of the difficulty of achieving a transfer but sometimes Lord Freud: I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, the costs involved in transferring and consolidating pension for her market insight here. I choose my words carefully. pots, there will over time be an increasing number of It is clear that the capping has had an effect on individuals who will have pension pots into which they charges. We are concerned that the pressure on charges are not actively contributing. It is this status of not should be maintained. That is why we have committed actively contributing to the pension pot which leaves to monitoring levels of charging in the marketplace as people vulnerable to the high or higher charges and automatic enrolment is introduced. We will publish the consequent returns on their pension contributions. guidance on default investment options in automatic Therefore, whether the Secretary of State uses the enrolment schemes later in the spring. This sets out opportunity of an amendment such as the one tabled guidance for suitable charging structures. The guidance by the noble Lord, Lord German, or the powers encourages appropriate charges, which match members’ reserved to him in the 2008 Act, he will need to think interests, and protects individuals from charges that about what he chooses to do to control the vulnerability are excessive in relation to the product they are paying of workers to escalating charges on pension pots for. where they are not actively contributing because they Let us not forget, as the noble Baroness has just have changed their employer. I am confident that that pointed out, that we are introducing a major change problem is not going to go away. Which? is seized of it, to the pensions landscape. NEST is being set up to as is the NAPF, and it is something that the Secretary offer low-cost pension provision to individuals on of State is going to have to address. It is not just a case low to moderate earnings. We expect this, as does the of looking at the charges when somebody is actively noble Baroness, to act as a benchmark across the contributing and accruing; there is the question of pensions industry, as well as to help millions of low to what is happening to the charges when people are no moderate earners to save. We are also looking seriously longer actively contributing into that pot because they at how transfers can be facilitated across the industry have gone to another employer and may be saving into so that savers can shop around for better charge another scheme. It is a growing and important issue, rates more easily. As I described in my response to a and certainly consumer bodies are very alert to it. previous amendment, HMT recently held a call for GC 247 Pensions Bill [HL][3 MARCH 2011] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 248 evidence on early access, including a specific question has been made on this but we also accept that the on ways to improve the transfer process. The DWP, as Turner commission originally recommended more action I have already described, has recently published a call on this point. We would like to make sure that, as the for evidence on the regulatory differences between scheme is developed, there is an ongoing commitment occupational and workplace personal pension schemes. to review whether the employer’s contribution should In this, we are seeking solutions to address existing be net of the costs of the schemes. I beg to move. rules that could impact on the success of the reforms. Those include rules on early scheme-leavers and disclosure. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, in relation to We are actively seeking to identify ways to facilitate Amendment 40, from the earlier response that we got the best possible deal for savers across the areas of from the Minister in relation to small pots and all the charging and transfers. Therefore, I do not believe that activity that is going on there, I presume that the sort regulations to make guidance are necessary at this of protection that the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, is time. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment. looking for will be encompassed within that whole exercise. Accordingly, I should be interested to see the outcome of that in due course. Unless I am Lord German: I am grateful for the statement that misunderstanding this, that is where it would be dealt the Minister has just made. Apart from the actions with. that he has described, I should be interested to know how in future you can actively promote to the companies and individuals concerned the sort of changes that the Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Government wish to see. I do not suggest that the Lord Stoneham for these two amendments, which DWP should set up its own confused.com-type of concern the same issue—that of protection. Amendment operation, but it may well be that we need some form 40 seeks to give us the powers to make arrangements of open process by which both employers and employees to support short-term workers to build their pension can see the benefits of different levels of charging by savings. It is particularly those individuals who will the different companies and whether there is transparency receive a refund when they leave an occupational in the operation. I welcome the Minister’s statement scheme within two years who will lose that opportunity. on that and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Clearly, the refund can be a default action, although they can choose to transfer the whole pension pot to Amendment 39 withdrawn. another scheme if that is appropriate. Clearly, there is a very legitimate concern here that the default refund 6.15 pm may mean that some individuals do not build up any kind of decent pot over time. These are the areas that we are considering through Amendment 40 the call for evidence on regulatory differences between Moved by Lord Stoneham of Droxford different types of pension schemes, so I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, that our activity here 40: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— addresses this issue. It is a very complex area and there “Continued saving following employment lasting less than are many considerations on both sides that we need to two years take into account before making a decision or changing The Secretary of State shall by regulations provide support for legislation. The issues are the trade-offs between continuing savings towards a pension for persons with qualified helping employers and schemes and increasing pension pension schemes relating to periods of employment of less than 2 years.” savings. We cannot, for example, limit short-service refunds without considering appropriate processes to help occupational schemes to manage additional Lord Stoneham of Droxford: In the interests of small pension pots. Therefore, everything connects to brevity as time is short, I am very happy to speak to everything else. As I have already described, we issued a Amendments 40 and 41, which are grouped separately. call for evidence on 31 January to initiate a debate Amendment 40 is related to the previous amendment, on possible solutions. The response will come this which concerned small pension pots. We want to ensure summer. that small contributors to pensions over short periods Amendment 41 would ensure that employers take are given due protection. We want to see that individuals into account pension charges when calculating their do not lose out where they have less than two years’ employer contributions. I assure noble Lords that we service, particularly losing the employer’s contribution are not complacent on this issue. We fully appreciate if withdrawn. We should like to see some ongoing the impact that charges can have on an individual’s discussion and review of how the position of these pension pot, particularly given the beta returns that savers and pensioners can be protected. However, I we are currently seeing. We are taking steps to ensure accept that the transfer of pension capital is critical to that such charges do not have a disproportionate this. impact on members’ savings. We will publish guidance Amendment 41 is a probing amendment. It goes on default investment options on automatic enrolment back to the discussion that we had on the past couple schemes later in the spring. That will cover suitable of amendments on the whole issue of the costs of charging structures, as I said. The guidance will encourage pension schemes. We remain concerned that there are appropriate charges which, first, match members’interests, still no incentives for employers to be responsible for and, secondly, protect individuals from charges that minimising the costs of the occupational pension schemes are excessive in relation to the product that they are in which they are involved. We accept that progress paying for. GC 249 Pensions Bill [HL][LORDS] Pensions Bill [HL] GC 250

Baroness Drake: I am conscious of the time and do charge will be 0.3 per cent. If the contribution charge not want to hold anybody up, so I shall try to be brief. is taken into account, the overall annual charge is the I understand the issues that the Minister is trying to equivalent of about 0.5 per cent. That will provide a address, but I repeat that low levels of charges—for clear benchmark for pension providers. example, 0.5 per cent or below—are fundamental to Given the safeguards that will be in place, and in the success of this asymmetric paternalist product. light of the assurances that I have been able to give on Somehow accommodating business models for suppliers Amendment 40, I urge my noble friends Lord Stoneham whose charges hover around 1 per cent will not deliver and Lord German not to press their amendments. the necessary strategic outcomes. Lord Stoneham of Droxford: I beg leave to withdraw Lord Freud: I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady the amendment. Drake, that if the research shows that charging levels are creeping up, we have the power under the Pensions Act 2008 to regulate to set a charge cap for qualifying Amendment 40 withdrawn. schemes and auto-enrolment schemes. NEST will offer low-cost provision to individuals on low to moderate Amendment 41 not moved. earnings. As the noble Baroness knows better than anyone else in the world, the annual management Committee adjourned at 6.22 pm. WS 119 Written Statements[3 MARCH 2011] Written Statements WS 120

to provide the new service that will replace the current Written Statements girocheque service. The contract value is estimated to be a total of £20 million per year, shared between the Thursday 3 March 2011 two providers. This new service will be free of charge to customers Airports: Economic Regulation and accessible over the counter at PayPoint outlets. PayPoint outlets are already serving many of our Statement customers and can be found in newsagents, community stores, and other local outlets. Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Secretary The DWP will ensure customers are moved across of State for Transport (Philip Hammond) has made to the new payment method as seamlessly as possible. the following Ministerial Statement. Information and advice will be made available so that In the Queen’s Speech the Government announced customers know what will happen and when the change their intention to reform the framework for the economic will take place. regulation of airports. Today I am announcing that Customers will still be able to collect their cash legislation to implement these reforms will be introduced from the Post Office if this is important to them, either early in the next Session. by switching to the Post Office card account or by Reforming the framework for airport economic using one of the many commercial bank accounts that regulation will help improve the quality of service that are accessible at Post Office branches. passengers receive at designated airports and contribute This department values its relationship with the positively to economic growth. Post Office and we are working closely with it as we As I set out in my Statement to the House on design the delivery of our future services. In particular 21 July 2010, we plan to replace the existing statutory we are setting up three pilots in partnership with the framework for regulation at designated airports with a Post Office: verifying identity as part of the national more flexible licence-based system. This will give the insurance application process; support for those jobseekers CAA the powers it needs to become a more responsive who live in more rural areas; and verification of supporting regulator—for example, to deal with events such as the documents such as birth and marriage certificates for severe weather this winter. The reforms will also strip customers of the pension service. out unnecessary regulation and support passenger-focused In addition, this department will continue to work investment in existing airport infrastructure. with the Post Office to explore further opportunities I am keen to ensure that there is a smooth transition for it to support new ways of delivering welfare, including to the new regime and we will work with the CAA and playing an important role in supporting the delivery of industry to achieve this. In particular, the Government universal credit—building on the work on pilots already will not be making changes to the basis on which the under way. current price caps at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted are set. Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009 Benefits: Cheque Replacement Statement Statement The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department McNally): My honourable friend the Parliamentary for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My right honourable Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jonathan Djanogly) friend the Minister for Employment (Chris Grayling) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. I am pleased to announce the Government’s intention Since coming into office the coalition Government to commence Section 53 of the Borders, Citizenship have been working to reform the welfare system, providing and Immigration Act 2009 with effect from 1 October a fairer deal for customers and taxpayers alike. 2011. Section 53 enables judicial review applications in Well over 98 per cent of all benefit customers are fresh claim asylum and immigration human rights now paid directly into an account. But there is a cases to be heard in the Upper Tribunal. relatively small number who cannot be paid into an Currently, judicial review applications cannot be account of any kind or who choose not to be. These transferred from the High Court or Court of Session customers currently receive their welfare payments by to the Upper Tribunal if they call into question decisions cheque and in total this amounts to fewer than 250,000 made under the Immigration Acts. The commencement people in the UK. of Section 53 will allow the transfer of judicial review Welfare cheques have become outdated, costly and applications relating to a refusal of the Secretary of too open to fraud. As a result, and in light of wider State for the Home Department to treat representations changes in the financial world, the previous Government as a fresh claim in asylum and immigration human set the terms of and invited bids on a procurement for rights cases. a product to replace this payment method. One of the conditions to enable the High Court in Following a competitive bidding process I can England and Wales to transfer a case to the Upper announce today that Citibank, working in partnership Tribunal is that the application falls within a class specified with PayPoint, will be awarded a seven-year contract by the Lord Chief Justice under Section 18(6) of the WS 121 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 122

Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. I understand financial year 2011-12. In 2011-12 there is £180 million that, following the commencement of Section 53, the available to be distributed as disabled facilities grant Lord Chief Justice is minded to make such a direction to local authorities—an extra £11 million more than in respect of this class of judicial review application. was available in 2010-11. All local authorities will, as a I also understand that while there are no immediate minimum, receive what they were allocated in 2010-11. plans to transfer these cases to the Upper Tribunal in The extra £11 million will then be shared between the respect of Scotland or Northern Ireland, commencement local authorities using a relative needs-weighted index. of Section 53 would allow that to happen at some The disabled facilities grant programme has improved point in the future should the Lord President and the the lives of many disabled people including disabled Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland deem this to children and helped them avoid the need to leave be appropriate. I understand that the Lord President family homes for specialist housing alternatives. has indicated that further consultation will be required in Scotland in relation to this matter. The transfer of these judicial reviews will enable fresh claim asylum and immigration human rights Discretionary Social Fund applications to be dealt with by judicial members of the Upper Tribunal who have specialist skills and Statement experience in asylum and immigration cases, and will also relieve workload pressure on the High Court, freeing up judicial time to address the high volumes of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department other types of cases heard in the High Court. for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My honourable I understand that the Tribunals Procedure Committee friend the Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb) has is currently considering whether any amendments will made the following Written Ministerial Statement. be required to the Upper Tribunal procedure rules to To meet genuine need, and in addition to continually reflect this change and that it may decide to undertake recycling from the £1.3 billion fund, this Government public consultation on this matter in due course. are committed to maintaining core funding of £178 million a year for the Discretionary Social Fund scheme over Disabled People: Grants the spending review period. However, since the introduction of remote telephone Statement applications in 2006, there has been an unjustifiable growth in the use of crisis loans. The number of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department awards made has increased from around 1 million to for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): 2.7 million while spending has almost tripled, reaching My right honourable friend the Minister for Housing £233 million in 2009-10. In the past 12 months alone, and Local Government (Grant Shapps) has made the over 17,000 people received 10 or more crisis loans. following Written Ministerial Statement. On current forecasts, the resources for 2011-12 will Today the Department for Communities and Local only satisfy two-thirds of expected demand. Without Government is announcing the local authority allocations corrective action to bring spending back under control for the disabled facilities grant programme in England, the shortfall would need to be met from the budgeting making available £180 million, an increase of £11 million loan scheme. on the amount allocated for 2010-11. Local authorities The situation is unsustainable, so I am announcing are being informed of their individual allocations. the introduction of three changes to the crisis loan Details of the amount awarded to each authority will system: to rebalance supply with affordable resources, be available on the Department for Communities and to ensure funding for community care grants is protected, Local Government website and a table detailing the and to ensure we can continue to make budgeting funds provided to individual authorities has been placed loans throughout the year. in the Library of the House. From 4 April 2011: The disabled facilities grant programme has been we will no longer pay crisis loans for items such as protected within the spending review. The programme cookers and beds. There will be residual support helps disabled people to live as comfortably and for people following a disaster such as flooding; independently as possible in their own homes through the provision of adaptations. Entitlement to a disabled we will reduce the rate paid for living expenses facilities grant is mandatory for eligible disabled people from 75 per cent down to 60 per cent of benefit and the grant provides financial assistance for the rate. This will align with the position for provision of a wide range of housing adaptations jobseeker’s allowance cases paid at the hardship ranging from stair lifts, level access showers and home rate; and extensions. The programme is therefore key in delivering we will implement a cap of three crisis loan awards the Government’s objective of providing increased for general living expenses in a rolling 12-month levels of care and support to people in their own period. homes. Without these measures budgeting loans would need The Department for Communities and Local to be withdrawn before Christmas. This would leave Government wrote to all local authorities in January significant numbers of people on low incomes with 2011 to announce a small change to the allocation little alternative but to turn to high cost or illegal methodology for the disabled facilities grant for the lending. WS 123 Written Statements[3 MARCH 2011] Written Statements WS 124

Equality Act 2010 The consultation runs from 3 March 2011 to 25 May 2011. Statement I will place copies of the consultation document in the Libraries of both Houses and in the Vote Office. It has also been published on the Government Equalities Office website at www.equalities.gov.uk. Baroness Verma: My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Equalities and Criminal Information (Lynne Featherstone) has today made the EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health following Written Ministerial Statement. and Consumer Affairs Council The Government are today publishing a consultation document containing a draft order setting out proposed Statement exceptions to a ban on age discrimination in the provision of goods, facilities and services, the exercise The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of public functions and the activities of private clubs for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My right honourable and other associations. friend the Minister of State for Employment (Chris The Government are committed to tackling harmful Grayling) has made the following Written Ministerial age discrimination. Our society is changing as people Statement. live longer, and it is important to ensure that people of The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer all ages are treated fairly when, for example, receiving Affairs Council will be held on 7 March 2011 in healthcare or trying to buy insurance. Brussels. I will represent the United Kingdom on all The Equality Act 2010 contains a ban on age agenda items. discrimination in the provision of services, the exercise There will be two policy debates at this meeting. of public functions and by associations. Before we The first discussion will focus on the EPSCO contribution implement the ban, we want to make sure that the new to the European Council on issues relating to the law: implementation of the Europe 2020 strategy, the European does not prevent service providers treating people semester and the annual growth survey. The presidency of various ages differently when there are beneficial will present for adoption the first joint employment or justifiable reasons for doing so: for example, report under the new European semester process together through the offering of age-based concessions, such with council conclusions that draw on the main messages as free bus passes or cheaper rates at leisure centres from the report and the employment guidelines. The to the over-65s and students; UK will stress the importance that employment policies takes into account how people of different ages live have been given within the context of the annual and their different needs; and growth survey and in particular the emphasis on activation takes into account how businesses and other organisations policies for the unemployed and inactive. The council operate in order to avoid disproportionate burdens will also adopt the opinion of the Social Protection and unintended consequences. Committee on the flagship initiative and its report on the assessment of the social dimension of Europe The consultation published today, Equality Act 2010: 2020. Finally the presidency will present information Banning Age Discrimination in Services, Public Functions on the preparations for the tripartite social summit, and Associations—A Consultation on Proposed Exceptions due to take place before the spring European Council. to the Ban, sets out those areas where we believe that different treatment of people of various ages is justified; The second discussion will be on the pensions Green and proposes how the legislation will be drafted to Paper. The Commission will present a progress note take account of these. on the analysis of the Green Paper responses. The UK will emphasise the importance of this issue but highlight One area where age-based decisions can be justified the need to avoid imposition of insolvency requirements is financial services—providers will still be permitted for pensions, particularly on grounds of costs and to make decisions and set charges based on an individual’s regulatory burden. age, if such a policy is reasonable and based on reliable evidence about risk. The Commission will present its annual report on progress on equality between women and men during The consultation is also very clear that there will be 2010. The report acknowledges areas where progress no specific exceptions to the ban on age discrimination has been made, both at national and European level. for the health and social care sectors. Any use of age in decision-making within the NHS and in social care Ministers will consider a number of other council will, if challenged, need to be objectively justified. conclusions. These cover a European framework for This approach has been informed by extensive work social and territorial cohesion, the further development with health and social care organisations and professionals, of an electronic exchange system facilitating the user groups and others with an interest in this issue. administrative co-operation in the framework of the Our aim is to eradicate harmful discrimination, while posting of workers directive, and the European pact allowing service providers to continue to treat people for gender equality (2011-20). of different ages differently where this is beneficial or Under any other business, the presidency will report justifiable. When services deal with individuals, they on the informal meeting of the Ministers for Employment, should therefore continue to focus on the individual, and will provide an update on two legislative areas, taking account of his or her age where it is appropriate seasonal workers and intra-corporate transferees. The to do so. Employment Committee and Social Protection Committee WS 125 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 126 chairs will provide information on their work programmes process for Romania had been completed, Bulgaria for 2011, and there will also be a presentation from the required a further visit to its land border. The presidency French delegation on plans for their G20 Labour and acknowledged wider concerns expressed by some member Employment Ministers’ meeting, which will take place states, but sought to avoid political discussion concluding in September 2011. that there was support for the conclusions. The Commission gave an update on visa liberalisation EU: Justice and Home Affairs Council road maps for the western Balkan countries, noting that abuses did have to be addressed and confirming Statement they were looking into the possibility of a suspension mechanism that would not target specific countries or The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord regions. Proposals would be brought forward in June. McNally): The Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council Under mixed committee AOB, the council received was held on 24 and 25 February in Brussels. My right an update on the EU-Canada visa situation and noted honourable friend the Secretary of State for Home an information-gathering visit had taken place at the Affairs (Theresa May) and I attended on behalf of the end of January. Preliminary findings suggested no United Kingdom. The following issues were discussed problems with the way Roma communities were treated. at the council: The report will be published in April. The interior day began with the council adopting The UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), the “A” points list. This included the adoption of the Antonio Guterres, used his presentation to urge member draft council conclusions on the effective implementation states to ratify the convention relating to the status of of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European refugees and to increase their support for capacity Union. The conclusions set out how the council will building in the developing world. On the current situation ensure that the charter is reflected accurately in future in north Africa, he highlighted that the majority of EU legislation. arrivals to the EU were mainly economic migrants, The council also adopted council conclusions on but he warned member states to be prepared for a the Commission’s communication on a comprehensive potentially massive flow from Libya. He asked member approach to personal data protection in the European states to consider using the temporary protection directive Union. The conclusions set out the council’s views on but advised that the present situation should not distract the general principles arising from the communication attention from the significant structural problems with and do not prejudice the need for careful and detailed the EU asylum system, and particularly with Greece. consideration of any legislative proposals. The EU’s next financial perspective had to rise to the After the adoption of the “A”points list, the council, challenges of protection both outside and inside the in mixed committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein EU. The UK welcomed the UNHCR’s work to help and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states) received member states improve their asylum systems, and an update from the Commission on the go-live date highlighted the close UK co-operation on resettlement for the visa information system (VIS) regulation. The and the quality initiative. The UK stated that although Commission said preparations at border crossings and it did not always agree with the UNHCR on legislative consular posts in the first phase region (North Africa) solutions, it was essential to work together to ensure appeared on track. VIS would only go live once all that real practical action happened on the ground, and consular staff there had been trained but current to reinforce levels of protection in the region. The developments in the region could adversely influence Commission said we were at a crucial moment and this. It expected the April JHA Council would decide had a duty of solidarity to member states facing on a start date. The UK does not participate in VIS. particular burdens. Protection in developing countries The Commission provided its regular update on the through regional protection programmes was important, delivery of the second generation Schengen information and they urged the presidency to make progress on the system (SIS II) central system and stressed the importance EU resettlement programme. of member state participation through the testing There was also a presentation by Rob Visser, the phases. newly appointed executive director of the European FRONTEX presented its annual work programme Asylum Support Office (EASO), who explained that (AWP)for 2011 to the council. The FRONTEX executive the support office was already operational (before the director said core objectives for 2011 were to enhance 19 June deadline mentioned in the regulation). Providing flexibility to respond to emerging situations, earlier support to Greece for the action plan was the top detection of crime at external borders, and enhancing priority. Member states urged Greece to speed up its interagency co-operation and interoperability. The main asylum reforms and called on the Commission to challenge would be increasing effectiveness with decreasing improve co-ordination of member state offers of resources. He mentioned that pledges so far had only assistance. The Commission was already providing met 50 per cent of requirements for the post rapid co-ordination and would soon hand this over to EASO. border intervention team operation on the Greece-Turkey On Dublin, the emergency mechanism would not apply border. FRONTEX warned that progress could be put in this situation; it was only proposed for member at risk. The Commission agreed and called for swift states fully implementing the asylum acquis. adoption of the new regulation. The draft text of the EU Turkey readmission agreement The presidency gave an overview of Romanian and was presented alongside council conclusions on visa Bulgarian accession to Schengen and introduced its liberalisation. The UK welcomed the text and called proposal for conclusions. While the technical evaluation for its swift conclusion and implementation. Given the WS 127 Written Statements[3 MARCH 2011] Written Statements WS 128 high level of transit migration through Turkey and concerns about the handling of identity theft in the into the EU, co-operation with Turkey was important text; the UK sought more discussion of the issue at to all member states. Although there were sensitive expert level. It also noted the firm commitment of the issues at stake, it made sense for member states to Government to ratify the cybercrime convention this agree the text; further delay could result in no agreement year. The Commission indicated openness to solutions being signed. Thanking the Commission for its declaration to deal with concerns expressed and noted that it on territorial application, the UK submitted declarations would bring forward a communication on critical relating to the application of the Title V opt-in protocol infrastructure protection in 2012. to future measures and stated that the Commission Next, the Commission presented its proposal to should act within its competence when undertaking a revise the regulation on jurisdiction and the recognition dialogue on visas, mobility and migration with Turkey. and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial The council discussed the substance of the conclusions matters (known as Brussels I). The regulation lays and a declaration was inserted at the end of the down rules governing the jurisdiction of courts and conclusions stating “the Commission acknowledges the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil that the last indent of the council conclusions does and commercial matters in the member states of the not legally constitute a negotiating mandate”. The European Union (EU). The objective of the revision Commission concluded that it now approach Turkey of Brussels I is to update and improve the operation of to initial the readmission agreement. the regulation by addressing certain problems that During lunch Interior Ministers discussed the have arisen with the current measure since its developments in the north African region (migratory implementation. The Government generally support flows and internal security). The presidency sought this objective and are currently considering the detail agreement to a draft press statement on the situation of the proposal and the results of the Government’s where the UK pushed for a focus on practical responses. consultation in order to determine whether or not to In the press conference after the council, the Commission opt in to the negotiations. and presidency were careful to emphasise the difference The presidency gave a state-of-play report on the between the existing situation (5,000 Tunisians who directive on the right to information in criminal had arrived in Italy were largely economic migrants proceedings. This proposal is the second measure in who should be returned) and the potential threat from the road map to strengthen procedural rights in criminal instability in Libya. The Commission emphasised the proceedings and it aims to set common minimum need to strengthen protection in Tunisia and Egypt for standards and improve the rights of suspects and those already crossing the borders. Ministers had not accused persons by ensuring that they receive information considered invoking the temporary protection directive, about their rights and about the accusation and evidence but the Commission said it did form part of the against them. Although a date has yet to be identified toolbox. Article 78(3) of the treaty also enabled them for the trilogue discussions, the Hungarians hope to to propose emergency measures including exceptional reach a first reading deal before the end of their financial support to help member states receiving a presidency. The Government noted the presidency’s mass influx. The next steps will depend on how the report. situation develops. The next planned discussion will be at the March European Council. Next, the council adopted council conclusions on the inclusion of the website of the European Judicial The internal security council conclusions were adopted Network in civil and commercial matters (civil EJN) without amendment. in the e-Justice Portal. The website of the civil EJN The council did not discuss the Commission evaluation has existed since 2001 providing information on the into EU readmission agreements, the new directive on laws and procedures on a number of topics in each passenger name records or remaining AOB items due member state. The presidency and Commission to time constraints. The communication on EU highlighted the migration was an important step forward readmission agreements will be discussed at working in securing a single online access point for justice party level in March and depending on the outcome of issues for citizens. these discussions the presidency will present draft Under any other business, the council took note of council conclusions to the April JHA Council. Passenger a report by the Commission on the memory of the name records will be discussed by working groups in crimes committed by totalitarian regimes in Europe. March and a substantive discussion will be held at the The report presents, among other things, how the EU April JHA Council. can play a meaningful role in the process of preserving The justice day commenced with a discussion on the memory of totalitarian regimes and that there are the directive on attacks against information systems a number of ways of maintaining that including through which demonstrated differences of view on whether to funding mechanisms. It also underlines that there are include use of false identity as an aggravating circumstance different national measures in place, and therefore the and the value of increasing sanctions. The presidency Commission currently has no plans to introduce EU-wide said that it wanted the Council of Europe’s 2001 legislation on the subject. The Government agreed the cybercrime convention to become the international importance of recalling the crimes committed by benchmark and encouraged those who had not ratified totalitarian states and welcomed the Commission’s to do so, noting there would be a conference on the report. 10th anniversary of the convention for signatories Ministers also received an update from the Commission including the USA on 10 to 13 April. The UK thanked on the subject of collective redress. The Commission the presidency for leadership on this issue and highlighted informed Ministers that it had launched a public WS 129 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 130 consultation on the issue and that, by the end of 2011, Government and the Mayor of London and provide a communication would be published. The Government value for money to the public sector. We are delighted welcome this consultation and have yet to make their with the progress that has been made and very pleased response to it. we have reached this very significant milestone in Finally, at the request of Slovakia, Ministers considered determining the long-term legacy for the Olympic the rights of EU citizens as regards the enforcement of Park following the Games. court decisions in third countries concerning custody laws, in particular in cases of mixed marriages and parental child abduction. Slovakia stated that the EU Pensions should explore ways of improving co-operation with third countries on international custody disputes. The Statement Government supported the Slovakian proposal. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Independent Public Service Pensions Sassoon): My honourable friend the Financial Secretary Commission to the Treasury has today made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Statement As announced in October, from April 2011 the annual allowance (AA) for tax-privileged pension saving The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord will be reduced from £255,000 to £50,000 and from Sassoon): My right honourable friend the Chief Secretary April 2012 the lifetime allowance will be reduced from to the Treasury (Danny Alexander) has today made £1.8 million to £1.5 million. This is a simpler and the following Written Ministerial Statement. fairer approach to making a more sustainable and The Independent Public Service Pensions Commission affordable system of pensions tax relief than the previous interim report, led by Lord Hutton of Furness, Government’s complex and damaging proposals. The recommended that the Government undertake a review reduction of these allowances will generate around of the Fair Deal policy. The Government confirmed £4 billion annual revenue in the steady state while their plans to take forward this recommendation at the preserving incentives to save, and lessening the impact spending review and have today launched a public on the ability of UK business to attract and retain consultation. talent. This approach has been welcomed by pension The Government welcome contributions from all and employer groups and the Government have continued interested groups. to work in consultation with them to finalise the design of the new pensions tax regime. The consultation document has been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and can be found on the The Government expect most individuals and HM Treasury website at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov. employers to adapt their pension-saving behaviour to uk/consult_fair_deal_policy_pensions_publicsector.htm avoid incurring a charge by exceeding the AA, and and will close on 15 June 2011. have put in place measures such as the carry forward of unused allowances to protect individuals further. However, recognising that in some circumstances Olympic Games 2012 individuals could still see high charges reflecting significant uplift in pension value in a given year, the Government Statement have consulted on options to enable individuals to meet these charges from their pension benefits. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department In line with the strong preference expressed by most for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): respondents, the Government have decided that where My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary AA charges are met from pension benefits, the tax of State (Bob Neill) has made the following Written should be paid at the point the charge arises. In effect, Ministerial Statement. schemes will have a considerable amount of time to My colleague the Minister for Sport and the Olympics complete the payment process, with additional flexibility (Hugh Robertson) and I have today given our approval being granted in the first year. Individuals with AA to the recommendation of the Olympic Park Legacy charges above £2,000 will be able to elect for the full Company to select the joint bid from West Ham liability to be met from their pension benefit. Schemes United Football Club and the London Borough of will be required to operate this facility only where an Newham as the preferred bidder for the legacy use of individual has exceeded the AA outright within that the Olympic Stadium. We are therefore writing to the scheme in the relevant year. The Government have company informing them of our decisions as its joint given schemes flexibility in how they operate, but is government founder members. The Mayor of London, clear that any adjustment to an individual’s pension as the other founder member of the company, will also benefit should be fair to all scheme members. write separately. The detailed policy specification has been set out in This completes the first stage of this process and a summary of responses document and draft clauses means that the Olympic Park Legacy Company are on which the Government welcome comment by now able to enter into negotiations with the consortium 17 March. An update to the tax information and comprising West Ham United Football Club and the impact note has also been made. All documents are London Borough of Newham to agree a lease for the available on the Treasury website and have been deposited Olympic Stadium site on terms that are acceptable to in the Libraries of the House. WS 131 Written Statements[3 MARCH 2011] Written Statements WS 132

Taxation examples of good quality, innovation and success in vocational education today are achieved in spite Statement of the current funding and regulatory system and not because of it. Professor Wolf’s recommendations shift 14 to 19 The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord vocational education away from the “expensive, centralised Sassoon): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary and over-detailed approach that has been the hallmark to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today made the of the past two decades”. following Written Ministerial Statement. Instead she says England should move towards the The Government created the Office of Tax systems favoured by the best providers of vocational Simplification (OTS) in July 2010 to provide independent education—Denmark, France and Germany, which advice on simplifying the tax system. delegate a large amount of decision-making and design The Chancellor of the Exchequer asked the OTS to to a local level. review a list of all reliefs, allowances and exemptions, applying to both businesses and individuals, within Professor Wolf says society has “no business placing the taxes and duties administered by HM Revenue and 14-year-olds in tracks which they cannot leave” and Customs, and to identify those reliefs that should be says options for all young people must be kept open. repealed or simplified to support the Government’s She suggests 14 to 16 year-olds should spend at least objective for a simpler tax system. 80 per cent of their learning time on a broad academic core. This is in line with the best models of vocational In November 2010 the OTS published a list of all education in Europe, which delay specialisation until reliefs in the tax system—1,042 in total. Further work post-16. narrowed this to 155 reliefs that they have now reviewed in detail. We will immediately accept four recommendations: Today the OTS has published its final report into its to allow further education lecturers to teach in review of tax reliefs. They recommend that 45 reliefs school classrooms on the same basis as qualified be abolished, 17 be simplified and 54 retained in their teachers; current form. to clarify the rules on allowing industry professionals The Government will respond to this report at the to teach in schools; Budget on 23 March 2011. A copy of the report has been deposited in the Libraries of the House. to allow any vocational qualification offered by a regulated awarding body to be taken by 14 to 19 year- olds; and Vocational Education to slash the red tape to temporarily allow high- Statement quality, established vocational qualifications, which are valued by employers, to be offered in schools and colleges from September. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My right honourable friend We will now consider how best to implement Professor the Secretary of State, Department for Education (Michael Wolf’s remaining recommendations. These include: Gove), has made the following Written Ministerial anyone who fails to achieve a good pass GCSE Statement. English or maths pass must continue to study those High-quality vocational education is crucial to enabling subjects post-16. Currently less than half of all social mobility, generating growth and making opportunity students fail to get an A* to C pass at GCSE; more equal for all young people. the Government should increase continuing professional Sadly, the system we have inherited means that too development (CPD) for mathematics teachers, especially many existing vocational qualifications are of poor post-16; quality or are offered inappropriately to young people. Too many young people are studying courses which do the removal of the perverse incentives, created by not enable them to progress. both the funding system and performance tables, to enter students for numerous low-quality qualifications. It is essential, therefore, that we ensure the vocational Higher quality courses should have higher scores in routes offered to young people are high quality and performance tables than dead-end ones, and funding are recognised by employers and further and higher should be per pupil not per qualification; education. Professor Wolf’s recommendations will help us to employers should be subsidised if they offer 16 to do just that. They have set a clear direction of travel 18 year-olds apprentices high-quality, off-the-job that will lead to a real and sustained improvement in training, and an education with broad transferable the vocational education on offer to young people in elements; this country. scrapping the duty on colleges and schools to She highlights how the system is failing hundreds of provide every 14 to 16 year-old with work-related thousands of young people and says: learning. Longer internships for older students 350,000 students aged 16 to 19 are on programmes should be prioritised instead; which score well in league tables but do not lead to employers should be more involved in local higher education or stable paid employment; colleges to ensure vocational qualifications valued high-quality apprenticeships are too rare and a decreasing by business are offered to students and are taught proportion are being offered to teenagers; and to industry standards; and WS 133 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 134

promote the right of under-16s to be enrolled in We will publish a full government response to Professor colleges so they can benefit from high-quality Wolf’s report shortly. vocational training available there, in creative arts, Copies of the Wolf review of vocational education commerce or catering. will be placed in the House Library. WA 355 Written Answers[3 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 356

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Written Answers legitimately issued Blue Badges were confiscated for misuse in 2008, 2009 and 2010; and how many Thursday 3 March 2011 fake Blue Badges were confiscated in 2008, 2009 and 2010. [HL6923] Buses Earl Attlee: It is estimated that there were 2.55 million Question valid Blue Badges in circulation on 31 March 2010. Asked by Lord Bradshaw The Blue Badge scheme is administered by local authorities and there are no national-level statistics on To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps fraud, forgery or misuse relating to Blue Badges. However, they are taking to improve the monitoring and the Department for Transport estimates that detected enforcement of bus service performance, particularly badge fraud could cost local authorities up to £7 million punctuality. [HL7057] per annum and the National Fraud Authority has estimated that total badge fraud could cost as much as Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport is £46 million per annum. This is one reason why the encouraging joint working between operators and local Government announced on 14 February a package of authorities to secure a high level of punctuality for reforms designed to improve enforcement of the scheme. passengers. The department is promoting an approach based on the development of bus punctuality partnerships. The Bus Partnership Forum, the main stakeholder Energy: Biofuels group for the bus industry chaired by my honourable friend Norman Baker MP,Parliamentary Under-Secretary Question of State for Transport, recently discussed how to Asked by Lord Bradshaw encourage punctuality partnerships to deliver results at the local level. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their The department is discussing with the Traffic plan to increase the diversity of fuel sources takes Commissioners and the Vehicle and Operator Services account of the expiry in 2012 of the reduction in Agency changes to the monitoring and enforcement of fuel duty for biodiesels made from used cooking bus punctuality so that it complements the partnership oil; and what assessment they have made of the approach. The changes are intended to give greater research and production capability for biodiesels in weight to prevention than hitherto has been the case. the United Kingdom. [HL6759]

Disabled People: Blue Badges Earl Attlee: The rate of excise duty for biodiesel produced from used cooking oil is £0.20 per litre less Questions than the rate of duty for ultra low sulphur diesel. This Asked by Lord Bradshaw 20p tax differential was introduced on 1 April 2010 and is set to run for a period of two years. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many requests they had from local authorities for joint The renewable energy directive provides additional investigations into suspected Blue Badge fraud in support for biofuels from waste, including used cooking 2008, 2009 and 2010; how many of those requests oil, by double counting the contribution they make were jointly investigated in 2008, 2009 and 2010; towards national targets. We will be consulting soon and how many successful prosecutions for Blue on proposals to implement the renewable energy directive. Badge fraud arose from those joint investigations in The department has commissioned work to assess 2008, 2009 and 2010; and how many of those likely scenarios for the availability of biofuels through convicted of Blue Badge fraud were also convicted to 2050; this research includes biodiesel from used for other types of benefit fraud in 2008, 2009 and cooking oil. The research is due to complete this 2010. [HL6921] spring and will be published on the department’s website. Earl Attlee: The Government set the legal framework for the Blue Badge scheme. Either local authorities or the police are responsible for its enforcement. The International Planned Parenthood Government do not investigate Blue Badge fraud, Federation however, on 14 February the Government announced a package of measures designed to facilitate enforcement Questions by local authorities, including improved legal powers. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Asked by Lord Bradshaw To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many have funded affiliates to the International Planned Blue Badges are in circulation; what percentage of Parenthood Federation, including the Planned those they estimate have been fraudulently applied Parenthood Federation of America; and, if so, for; what percentage of issued Blue Badges they when; how much was provided in the last year for estimate are being misused; how many fake Blue which figures are available; why they provided the Badges they estimate are in circulation; and when funding; and whether any conditions were attached those estimates were made. [HL6922] to the funding. [HL7104] WA 357 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 358

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what records The lists include both conflict and non-conflict they hold on the use of funds provided by them to affected countries as the Government do not maintain the International Planned Parenthood Federation an unclassified list of countries that they consider to (IPPF); and whether IPPF have used those funds to be affected by conflict. fund affiliates, including the Planned Parenthood The Government also provide humanitarian and Federation of America. [HL7105] mediation support through, for example, multilateral organisations such as the United Nations (UN), and military support to a range of conflict-affected countries Baroness Verma: The Department for International through their commitments to UN, North Atlantic Development (DfID) has provided unrestricted funding Treaty Organisation, European Union (EU) and to International Planned Parenthood Federation (IPPF) Organisation for Security Cooperation in Europe UK through a programme partnership arrangement international peacekeeping missions. (PPA) since 2008. The strategic objectives and specific, measurable performance indicators for the PPA were developed in partnership between DfID and IPPF Ports UK. The PPA is designed to support activities in developing countries, as covered by the International Question Development Act. IPPF UK provides annual narrative Asked by Lord Empey reports on progress against agreed objectives. To ask Her Majesty’s Government which ports DfID also provides £4,999,999 funding to IPPF in the United Kingdom are trust ports. [HL6906] through the Governance and Transparency Fund (GTF) for the period 2008-13. This project supports work in Earl Attlee: There are around 90 trust ports in the 12 countries in Latin America, Central Asia and eastern United Kingdom. The second edition of Modernising Europe, and is managed by a consortium led by IPPF Trust Ports, the Department for Transport’s guidance Western Hemisphere Region in partnership with IPPF to the sector, contains a list of trust ports in Britain. It European Network. DfID receives annual narrative is available on the department’s website: http://www.dft. reports for the GTF funded projects. gov.uk/pgr/shippingports/ports/trust/ DfID has not funded affiliates of the International goodgovernancesecondedition.pdf. Planned Parenthood Federation including the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, which is a non-grant receiving member association of IPPF. The Planned Railways: Channel Tunnel Parenthood Federation of America has not received Question DfID funding either directly or indirectly for use in the United States. Asked by Lord Dykes To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they propose to resolve the disagreement between rail Overseas Aid companies in relation to the use of the Channel Tunnel. [HL6609] Question Asked by Lord Bates Earl Attlee: Under The Channel Tunnel (International Arrangements) Order 2005 economic regulation of Toask Her Majesty’s Government in which conflict- the Channel Tunnel is carried out by the Channel affected states are they provide (a) humanitarian Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission assisted in the aid, (b) mediation, and (c) military support.[HL7131] United Kingdom, as required, by the independent Office of Rail Regulation. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The table below Railways: Closures gives details for countries in which the Government are providing support in the current financial year. Question Asked by Lord Bradshaw Type of support Country To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their (a) Humanitarian Aid Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Chile, Eritrea, Burma, assessment of the closure of the direct Wrexham– Haiti, Yemen, Chad, Occupied Palestinian Shropshire–London train service (a) generally, and Territories, Congo Brazzaville, Democratic (b) in respect of any effect on competition in the Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Uganda, Somalia, Malawi, Kenya, Tanzania, Pakistan, Iraq, Birmingham area; how they will undertake any Guatemala, Sri Lanka, Burundi, Eritrea, Niger action arising from their assessment; and when. and Zimbabwe. [HL6373] (b) Mediation Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Pakistan, India, Kenya, Sierra Leone, Ethiopia, South Africa, Sudan, Somalia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Cote Lord Shutt of Greetland: We appreciate that passengers d’Ivoire, Zimbabwe, Ghana, Liberia, Angola, will have been disappointed by the decision made by Nigeria, Yemen, Lebanon, Israel, Occupied Deutsche Bahn, the owners of the Wrexham, Shropshire Palestinian Territories, Georgia, Armenia, and Marylebone Railway (WSMR), to cease operations Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, on the line, but we welcome its statement that it is Russia, Moldova, Kosovo. actively seeking alternative employment for its staff. WA 359 Written Answers[3 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 360

WSMR is an open access operator, run as a commercial Schools: Academies entity and is not part of the franchised rail network. Question The decision to close the business was for its owners rather than Government. While passengers travelling Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick from some stations will lose direct services into London Marylebone, alternative services are available, which To ask Her Majesty’s Government how local are being advertised through WSMR’s website. education authorities will be affected by the expansion of the academies programme. [HL6207] WSMR has announced that passengers who already have WSMR tickets will be able to use them to travel The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for with other operators. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): Local authorities will We are currently consulting on the future shape of have a strong, strategic role in relation to education the InterCity West Coast franchise ahead of its re-letting and children’s services, acting as a champion for parents, in April 2012 and welcome views, as part of this families and vulnerable pupils, in the new schools consultation, on running services to the areas served system. They already have an important role in identifying by WSMR. schools that would benefit from becoming academies WSMR currently has track access rights to run the and we anticipate that, as academy status spreads, services from Marylebone to Wrexham for the period local authorities will increasingly move to a strategic up to December 2014. However, once it ceases running commissioning and oversight role. these services, any operator, either passenger or freight, Schools: Funding may apply for the rights to run trains on these paths. It is a matter for the Office of Rail Regulation to determine Question the most appropriate use of the paths available. Asked by Lord Bradley To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the funding allocation to schools in the City of Manchester Railways: Compensation in 2010–11; and what will be the allocation in Question 2011–12 after the introduction of the pupil premium. [HL7101] Asked by Lord Bradshaw The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The dedicated schools issue guidance on whether compensation to passengers grant (DSG) is distributed by the department through for delayed trains should be paid in cash, cheques a single guaranteed unit of funding per pupil for each or vouchers. [HL6756] local authority. It is for the local authority to decide how much funding it delegates to the maintained Earl Attlee: Under the National Rail Conditions of schools in its area. Each local authority in consultation Carriage, which are binding on all passenger train with its schools forum has a funding formula that it operators, compensation for delayed trains must be has designed to cater for the needs of its own area. paid in travel vouchers (valid on services provided by Overall, the city of Manchester received £350.8 million all train operators). Train operators may use a more of revenue funding for schools in 2010-11, including flexible method of compensation at their discretion. DSG and other specific grants for schools. For 2010-11, the authority’s DSG funding per pupil was £4,919.11. For 2011-12, the DSG funding per pupil will be £5,875.61, Roads: Bus Lanes including £956.50 for specific grants that have been mainstreamed into the DSG. The final DSG allocations Question for local authorities will be based on the January 2011 Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon pupil count and will be published in summer 2011. The pupil premium is additional to the DSG. The To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they level of the premium will be £430 per pupil and will be plan to restore the 70 miles per hour speed limit on the same for every deprived pupil, no matter where the M4 between junction 4 and the Chiswick flyover they live. Using data from January 2010 this would be following the removal of the bus lane. [HL6329] worth an additional £9.9 million for the city of Manchester. The actual amount allocated may, however, be higher or lower than that since we will use data Earl Attlee: The M4 bus lane was suspended from from January 2011 when they are available. December 2010 for a trial period of 18 months. It will be reinstated as part of the transport arrangements for South Wales Police the 2012 Olympics, as part of the Olympic Delivery Questions Authority’s planned traffic management measures on this section of the Olympic Route Network. Sufficient Asked by Lord Laird data should be collected during the trial to inform the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many final decision about the future of the bus lane. If this times in the past 20 years the appointment of Mr John supports the permanent removal of the M4 bus lane, Littlechild, vice chair of the South Wales Police then a revocation order will be made for commencement Authority, has been renewed as a member of that after the Olympics and Paralympics in autumn 2012. authority, and prior to that, Cardiff Police Authority. The speed limit will be reviewed as part of this process. [HL7062] WA 361 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 362

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Department of Energy and Climate Change’s latest Jones): This information is not held centrally. advice. Benefit-cost ratios were also adjusted in line Appointments and renewals are a matter for the relevant with draft departmental guidance on the treatment of police authority. indirect tax revenues, specifically the impact on fuel duty revenue to the Treasury. No modification was Asked by Lord Laird made in regard to the aggregation and valuation of To ask Her Majesty’s Government on how many small time-savings. occasions in the last 20 years Mr John Littlechild JP, vice chair of the South Wales Police Authority, has been consulted by the South Wales Police Authority Wreck Removal Convention Bill or officers of the South Wales Police for the selection Question of magistrates for (a) magistrates’ court, and (b) Crown Asked by Lord Berkeley Court, appeal cases. [HL7063] Toask Her Majesty’s Government how the Secretary Baroness Neville-Jones: This information is not held of State will use his new powers in the Wreck centrally and is a matter for the South Wales Police Removal Convention Bill to direct the general Authority. lighthouse authorities to mark or remove wreckage in United Kingdom waters where the wreckage is neither a hazard to navigation nor likely to become Transport: Appraisals one. [HL7174] Question Asked by Lord Bradshaw Earl Attlee: The powers in the Wreck Removal Convention Bill are proposed to take effect only when To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Nairobi International Convention for the Removal the Written Statement by Earl Attlee on 4 February of Wrecks comes into force. Under the terms of the (WS 7–10), whether the projects detailed have been convention, and in line with the polluter pays principle, assessed using the New Approach to Transport it is expected that all costs to the state incurred in Appraisal (NATA); and, if so, whether NATA has locating, marking and removal of wrecks should be been modified, particularly with regard to the recoverable where the convention applies. aggregation and valuation of small time- In the situation described, where the wreckage does savings. [HL6754] not pose a hazard to navigation nor is likely to do so, the Secretary of State would direct the General Lighthouse Earl Attlee: Decisions on the projects detailed were Authorities only if he determined that they were the supported by information on scheme impacts assessed organisations best placed to locate, mark or remove using the NATA framework. Estimates of the benefit-cost wreckage which could reasonably be expected to result ratio (BCR) used in this assessment were adjusted to in major harmful consequences to the marine account for the impact of wider impacts, reliability, environment, or damage to the coastline or related landscape and higher CO2 values consistent with interests. Thursday 3 March 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Airports: Economic Regulation ...... 119 EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 124 Benefits: Cheque Replacement...... 119 EU: Justice and Home Affairs Council ...... 125

Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Independent Public Service Pensions Commission...... 129 Act 2009 ...... 120 Olympic Games 2012 ...... 129 Disabled People: Grants ...... 121 Pensions...... 130 Discretionary Social Fund ...... 122 Taxation...... 131

Equality Act 2010 ...... 123 Vocational Education...... 131

Thursday 3 March 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Buses...... 355 Railways: Closures ...... 358

Disabled People: Blue Badges ...... 355 Railways: Compensation...... 359

Energy: Biofuels...... 356 Roads: Bus Lanes ...... 359 Schools: Academies ...... 360 International Planned Parenthood Federation...... 356 Schools: Funding...... 360 Overseas Aid...... 357 South Wales Police...... 360

Ports ...... 358 Transport: Appraisals ...... 361 Railways: Channel Tunnel ...... 358 Wreck Removal Convention Bill ...... 362 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL6207] ...... 360 [HL6922] ...... 355

[HL6329] ...... 359 [HL6923] ...... 356

[HL6373] ...... 358 [HL7057] ...... 355 [HL7062] ...... 360 [HL6609] ...... 358 [HL7063] ...... 361 [HL6754] ...... 361 [HL7101] ...... 360 [HL6756] ...... 359 [HL7104] ...... 356 [HL6759] ...... 356 [HL7105] ...... 357 [HL6906] ...... 358 [HL7131] ...... 357 [HL6921] ...... 355 [HL7174] ...... 362 Volume 725 Thursday No. 118 3 March 2011

CONTENTS

Thursday 3 March 2011 Questions Apprenticeships: Network Rail...... 1169 Railways: Light Rail Vehicles ...... 1171 Israel and Palestine ...... 1173 Health: Care and Compassion?...... 1176 Charities Bill [HL] First Reading ...... 1178 Business of the House Timing of Debates...... 1178 Eight Statutory Instruments Motions to Refer to Grand Committee...... 1178 Postal Services Bill Committed to Committee ...... 1179 Postal Services Bill Order of Consideration Motion ...... 1179 International Women’s Day Debate ...... 1180 News Corporation/BSkyB Merger Statement ...... 1249 Forestry Commission Debate ...... 1258 Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) (No.2) Bill First Reading ...... 1273 Clothing Industry: Ethical and Sustainable Fashion Question for Short Debate...... 1273 Grand Committee Pensions Bill [HL] Committee (2nd Day)...... GC 187 Written Statements...... WS 119 Written Answers...... WA 355