National Life Stories Living Memory of the Jewish

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NATIONAL LIFE STORIES

LIVING MEMORY OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY

Joan Salter

Interviewed by Melissa Raphael

C410/079

IMPORTANT

Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB United Kingdom

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Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. Should you find any errors please inform the Oral History curators.

BRITISH LIBRARY NATIONAL SOUND ARCHIVE

NATIONAL LIFE STORY COLLECTION

INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET ______

Ref. No.: C410/079Playback ______

Collection Title: The Living Memory of the Jewish Community ______

Interviewee's surname: SALTER

Title: Mrs

Interviewee's forenames: JOAN

Date of Birth: February l940

Sex: Female ______

Date(s) of recording: l2/4/90 & 24/4/90

Location of interview: Interviewee's home

Name of interviewer: Melissa Raphael

Type of recorder: Marantz ______

Additional material: ______

F417 Side A

My name is Joan Salter. I was born Fanny Zimetbaum, in Brussels, Belgium, in February l940. My parents were both Polish Jews. My mother came from Warsaw, where she was the youngest child of quite a large traditional Jewish family. She says her father was a sort of minor civil servant. But a lot of my mother's memories I take with a pinch of salt, because she is inclined to romanticise, as so many people from Poland do. They have a need to make life having been much better than it was. But I - I do believe that several of her brothers had become professionals. And she speaks of them as having become doctors and things. She was married off when she was already in her mid-twenties, to a man much older than herself. And they then went to live in Paris. This was the early '30's. She - several of her sisters had married professionals. And they were all living in France. It seemed to have been quite common amongst that type, that - to go and live in France and become what one would call middle class. And from the photos and things I can see of that period, they were obviously well-off. And it would appear that really they were probably areligious, to be quite honest. There is no real evidence of them having been particularly religious. Although when she speaks of her parents, she does speak of them as being quite orthodox. And the photos I have seen - they wouldn't have been Chasidim. But her father seems to have worn the hat and had a beard and things like that. So she came from that sort of background. And she lived in Paris. And my half-sister was born in l935. She was actually pregnant with my sister when her husband died of tuberculosis. But she stayed in France. It seemed that she sort of was protected by her sisters, who were quite well off and I think they lived quite a - a good way of life. My father came from quite a different background. He was from Gallicia. The town of Tarnov. His name was Isaac Zimetbaum. He was the - I think he was the second child in a family of four. He had two brothers and one sister. They - his father, it would appear, was in the cloth industry. I think he had a factory of some sort. I don't think they were particularly well-off, because he speaks of the home they had as not being theirs. I think it was rented. And the family were quite - I don't think cultured is the right word, but they were quite liberal in their outlook. Although some of the relatives were extremely ultra-orthodox. He speaks of his parents as having been very open minded. One brother and one sister were very active in the Communist Party. And mixed quite freely with non-Jews and brought them home. And my father tells quite an amusing story, which gives a lot of insights into the sort of culture they had. How my father was called in to have a talk with his father. Who spoke in a third person about a friend of theirs. His heart was being broken because the daughter was bringing treph into the home. And of course it meant that my father had to tell his sister to stop bringing in the ham sandwiches into the home and whatnot. But they were obviously quite a tolerant family. My father - a very fascinating personality. And he tells stories about himself, which I believe are very true. I think his memories are very realistic. Because he really has come to terms with the past. And he says he started smoking when he was about ll. And he was obviously a bit of a lad. He mixed very freely with the non-Jews in the town. Although Tarnov had something like eighty per cent Jewish population. It was part - it had been part of the Austrian/Hungarian Empire. And therefore there wasn't the same divisions as there were in other parts of Poland. And he mixed very freely. And his - the local Chief of Police, who was a non-Jew, his older brother was very friendly with the son. And this played an important part later on in how he survived. And apparently on May Day, or just before May Day, they used to need to lock up all the Communists, because of rioting or whatnot. And the Chief of Police used to come to my grandfather's home. And they'd all sit down and have a few drinks. And my grandfather would promise that Sally would not be allowed out of the house. And apparently she never got put into prison. And on that day she listened to her father. So they did seem to have quite an easy, happy - it seemed to have been

1 quite a happy environment. My father was obviously a rebel from a very early age. Didn't believe in going to school. He used to go and gamble and play cards and things like that. And his father sent him, sort of in his late teens, to Belgium, to a distant cousin who was - if not Chassid, was very religious. To train as a gem cutter. And it's quite funny, because the - the distant cousin obviously looked upon my father as being a - an apprentice-cum-slave, and that obviously wasn't my father's style. And my father did part of his training, but left quite early and went to live in Paris. So he was living in Paris from the late twenties. And he had obviously - just was a sort of businessman. He spoke many languages. Completely integrated into the French way of life. He spoke French absolutely perfectly. Spanish, Italian, Yiddish, German, Polish. Even my mother, who obviously was not a very intelligent person, she also spoke four or five languages. It was just the way of life to them.

And did your father have any memories of any anti-Semitism in Poland. Any personal memories?

Well, his own experiences were not. But he speaks of his aunt, his father's sister or something, who - who was Chassidic. The family obviously had sort of broken away one generation. That's right, his grandfather apparently was a Chassidic. Rabbi or whatever. And yes, the stories - this is interesting, because although he never experienced them, the stories in his homes were of the pogroms, were of the violent anti-semitism, of the beards being pulled off. And it is the fact that this was a way of life even though he hadn't experienced - explained his own reaction to when anti-Semitism really started. But he himself had no qualms about mixing with non-Jews. And in France and everything - I get the impression that they mixed very freely and that they lived a very, what one would call, a bourgeois sort of life. He met my mother in l936. And they - although it's never actually been said, I think they lived together, you know, they were completely that sort of way of life. A very hedonistic lifestyle. No doubt about it. They used to go to Caen for the summer. And he dealt in everything. He dealt in diamonds and gems. He also would sort of copy the fashions. Go to his father's factory in Poland and they'd make it up and he'd sell it in France. And he was a gambler all his life. It was part of his makeup. It was part of his soul. And, you know, he was a gambler in everything. I mean he was a cardplayer, but he also - I mean he started businesses and everything. And he'd either make a fortune or lose a fortune. That was his character.

I'd like to hear more about him. He sounds a very, very fascinating man. But how far back can you go with your knowledge of your ancestors. Of say your grandparents or great grandparents?

Only as far - as far as his grandfather. Who he speaks of as having been a Chassidim. And he talks about how - I don't know what part of Poland he lived in. I don't think it was Gallicia. I think they moved from the Northern part at one stage. And yes, I think it was his parents who came to Gallicia.

And it's only then your grandfather that you have any knowledge of?

Yes. And he was supposed to have been a - a Chassid. And my father speaks of him as - when my father was a child - seeing - visiting him and he tells a story of how in the winter it was so cold he had to break the ice to wash, and that sort of thing. But - yes, that's all I know. And his aunt who was Chassidic and very, very religious and who used to come into their home. And they tell the story how his parents, although in those days I suppose

2 everyone kept kosher, they were more sort of open minded and things. And when the aunt came all hell was paid. She'd pull the kitchen to bits, and that sort of thing. And it was interesting, because it was completely accepted of course. And even though they kept an open house, the right way was the aunt's way, you know, that sort of almost tyranny. He speaks of his aunt. And my mother - because they actually went there to get married. And they took my mother to the Mikvah. And my mother had been married before of course. And she didn't know what the Mikvah was. Which was quite interesting. And - well she didn't appreciate it. And when the aunt took her to dunk her completely under, she thought she was trying to drown her. And that was in l938. They actually were married in February l938. They went home to Tarnov. It's very interesting, because I've never been able to get - my mother always romanticised and told the stories and they were always on the verge of fairy stories, her family. And my suspicions are that she broke away from her family, her parents. But - and of course this has been a pain to - you know, in her soul sort of thing. So she does romanticise. But it is interesting that she went to my father's home to be married, in Tarnov, in l938. And she would have been in her mid-30's by then. That's right. My father was born in l903 and my mother was born in l904.

And as far as you know there had been no intermarriage. So it was a Jewish family on all sides?

Yes. Yes. Once my mother - how can I put it - let slip a little story. Which I found very interesting. She - she speaks of her family in Warsaw, of having been very traditional. She says they lived in an apartment. And that it was not in the sort of - a particularly Jewish part of Warsaw. But that it was - and then that her father was supposed to have been like a civil servant and that he came home and that the boys studied, and all this, that and the other. But she speaks of them only as having mixed with Jews. But she - she says one day that a non- Jewish - she calls them a Count. I mean that was - my mother always spoke, it always had to be a Prince or a Count, or a millionnaire. You know. And I take all that with a pinch of salt. Although my father, I think his stories are much more realistic. I think he's telling the truth. And he doesn't need to glamourise the past. Whereas I think my mother does. But as she says, a non-Jewish Count came knocking on the door. Who wanted to marry her. And that was when the arranged marriage happened. And it is interesting, because she was already in her mid-20's when this arranged marriage happened. So I suspect that she was probably going out with a non-Jew. And I suspect otherwise she would have been the cossetted younger daughter who would have stayed home with the parents. There's no question but that she was very cossetted. And experience after the war showed she really had had no idea of home keeping or anything. I mean - in her parents home she was cossetted. When she was with her first husband and my father, they were wealthy and she just didn't do anything in the house. She obviously had absolutely no idea how to make a cup of tea or coffee. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. So they were obviously very well off. Anyway, in l938 they went to Tarnov to get married.

Had the arranged marriage been unhappy and had collapsed?

No, what had happened is the man was much older than she. And she must have had a very tragic - It only lasted, from what I can understand, about 4 or 5 years. Her first child died of what was possibly meningitis, from how she says. They all went to live in Paris. And she had close contact with two sisters who live in Paris. And I think her first husband was a Sephardi. Because his name was Malaka(ph). Something like that. Malaga(ph) Malaka(ph) I suspect he was a Sephardi. But how it happened. She wouldn't talk of it. And I think she

3 wouldn't talk of it purely and simply - she has a - a naive loyalty to my father. That's basically what it is. Because my sister wanted to know something about her background. And my mother wouldn't speak of it. And I have spoken to people who knew them. And they speak of him as a gentleman. Because my father was not a gentleman. He was very interesting. Her family were very against my father. They looked upon him as being - wide boy. No doubt that's what he was, you know. A big mouth and, you know, whatsit. And I think they were all against her marrying him and everything. Because he just - Because they had very integrated into the French. And he - I mean he drank and he gambled and he, you know, all that sort of thing. Where they were all professionals. And I have no doubt that that was the thing. And her first husband is spoken of very highly by people who knew him. So - but she - my sister who now lives in Canada, asked me to try and find out something. And I just couldn't get anything from her. It was completely - "well, you know, your father", and this, that and the other. Which is ironic, because they had a very unhappy marriage, my father and my mother. But, you know, sentiment being what it is.

Do you know exactly where they met?

In Paris.

I mean at a party or ..?

I believe it was in a restaurant, sort of thing, you know. Sort of she was there with her sisters and brothers. And he was there with another party. And they spoke. And it was something along those lines, you know. Yes, I think they'd lived a very sort of affluent life. I don't think any of the crowd lifted a finger in the house, you know. All the talk is, you know, they used to go down to Caen for the summer and things like that.

Do you know where they lived in Paris?

That's interesting. I've never asked. That's interesting. Yes, I never asked that. But they had a nanny. When he married my mother my sister had a nanny. And they went to Tarnov to get married. And they were going to go to Austria for their honeymoon. And it was just before - oh my gosh - Is it Succoth that's in February, March? Before Pesach?

Purim?

Purim. That's right. It was Purim. So they didn't go. And they were lucky, because the Anschluss happened. March the llth or whatever. They stayed - because it was Purim, they stayed with his parents over the holiday. They married on 23rd February. And because Purim was coming they stayed there for a few weeks. They would have been in Austria. And of course the whole thing at that time was if you were a foreign Jew, you know, that's when the rounding up - Anyway, they went back to Paris. And this was already '38. And my father noticed - because before that he had mixed completely with non-Jews - and he began to notice the people didn't want to be seen with him in restaurants and that sort of thing. And here we can go back to what had happened to him in his childhood. His memories of his aunt. And so instinctively, although he always mixed with non-Jews, he instinctively felt that things weren't going right. And he decided to go and live in Belgium. Because he felt Belgium had been neutral in the First World War. And therefore it would be all right.

Was this in, say, '38?

Late '38. Hold on. No wait a minute. No. Tell a lie. November '39 they went. That's right. November '39 they went to live in Belgium. That's right. Because by this time - people weren't trading with him, you know, non-Jews, they didn't want to be seen with him. And what he did was very interesting and I suppose very typical of the Jews of that time. He put all his money into jewellery. And he also - he was a very clever man. He - he put it into less - less - expensive. Not into diamond things. But into coloured stones. Because his logic was if you have to bribe people, a white stone doesn't mean very much. And apparently he did. And apparently he hid it in places, in Paris and things. He hid it in places that he thought he might be able to get to.

And his name was?

Isaac Zimetbaum. In France he was known as Jacque. And when he eventually got to Britain he was known as Jack. Yes. So he always sort of - you know, changed according. He was a chameleon, which is how he survived. And so they went to live in Belgium. I was born in February. And he had a first cousin. It was his mother's sister's daughter. First cousin. Who lived in Brussels. And they - my parents hired a flat near them. So I was born in - in - And I had a nanny and everything. So they had quite a lot of money and everything. And I was born in February. And - crumbs - was it May the 23rd - the Germans came into Belgium? And they rounded up the foreign Jews. At that time it was - well, no, it wasn't just the Jews. They rounded up all the foreigners. If you - because of course you had to have papers and things. So he wasn't Belgian. So they rounded them up, but they didn't round up my cousins, his cousin's husband, because they were Belgian. They'd been there two generations or something. So the cousins sort of supported my mother. And my father was taken into France. There was a whole group of them that knew each other. They were taken to France. Oh crumbs, where was it? - I think it was near Lyon he said. I'm terrible with names, I can't remember names. But it's a town - in the Northern part of France. I can't remember. But they were put in what was in effect an ordinary prison. Because they were rounded up, you know, at the beginning of June, and of course the Nazis went in and took over Germany.

What happened to you when they were rounded up?

They only took the men. They were only taking the males.

And presumably you have no memory of your mother's reaction to that, or of Brussels at all?

No, I have no memory of that at all. Only the stories they tell. What my father says is that it was virtually universally accepted that they were foreigners. And that this was almost a formality. That no-one was very worried about it. That - they were taken to an ordinary prison. I'm trying to think of the town. I can't remember the town. But it was sort of like 50 miles inside France. No, hold on, it must have been beyond Paris, because I'll tell you why later on. No, it was beyond Paris. It was somewhere in a prison in France beyond Paris. That's right. And they were there for about 6 months. And there was a whole coterie of them, because it appears that sort of people from Poland and whatnot, they sort of went to Paris. And they knew each other, they sort of kept in touch and whatnot. So there were several of them. But my father's cousin wasn't amongst them. He was still in Belgium. And they sort of supported my mother. Although she appeared to have had plenty of money.

Because she still had the nanny and everything. And he was there for about 6 months. And then what happened is ..

Does he recall any of the conditions in the prison at that time?

Well, he - he - that one he doesn't speak about too much. He says it wasn't - wasn't bad. It wasn't - they - it was to such an extent that all the others really believed that they were just being rounded up to be redirected for labour.

He wasn't ill treated?

No.

Did he go hungry during that time?

No, he speaks about it as just having been a normal sort of rounding up. You were foreigners. And of course in those days if you were foreigners and didn't have papers. Yes, that's the other thing, is my father, I think, although he's never said exactly what, it is probably to do with the fact he didn't want to go into the Polish army. He had Czechoslovakian papers. I mean false papers were a normal way of life to these people. They just - you know - they lived by their wits. It was a - I think if you'd been brought up in a country like Poland, sort of - it's hard for people in England and America to really understand. They look upon these people as being sort of - a little bit below the line sort of thing. But to them it was a normal way of life. I mean in Poland, even though he'd been brought up in Gallicia, his aunt and his grandparents, you know, - being Jewish you just were always looking over your shoulder. And you always had a story to tell and you always had false papers, you know. It was looked upon as being clever and not, you know - I mean the British can't understand. It's just a different cultural outlook. So I think it was just accepted that, you know, they were redirecting labour, that they were foreigners. Because in those days also you didn't change your nationality. If you were Polish, you were Polish. So he had Czechoslovakian papers. But of course his papers were taken at that stage. So in effect he was without papers. He was still in contact with his parents. And he sent them parcels. So at that stage - at that stage, from what I can understand, there was no real fear. Except of course the Germans and everything. But I mean he was aware of anti-Semitism in Paris and all this sort of thing. So -

Had he ever been naturally barred from entering into casinos or..?

No, he doesn't speak of that. No. He doesn't speak of that. And I mean knowing of my father, he would have accepted that you've got to pay someone anyway, you know. So I suspect that he - you know - he would have always been able to get in through the back door. But, as he said, he just realised that people didn't want to be seen with him in the street and whatnot. And he just felt it was time to go. And that's why he went to Belgium. So - so anyway, he was - I can't remember where it was - but he was in prison for about 6 months. And we're talking about the autumn of l940 now. Somewhere, I don't know, October, November. They were supposed to be - they were told they were going to be transported to a labour camp. And he says how they were on a train. And there was a good 20 of them. And he says they were just ordinary - a couple of young German soldiers guarding them. It was an ordinary train. And the young soldiers were like sitting at the end of the compartment. And they were approaching Paris and the train started to slow down. And he said to his

6 friends, "We've got to escape". And they all got very angry at him and said, you know, "You are gonna get us into trouble. We have to behave". That was the atmosphere. "If we all behave, if we all do - you know - what we're told". And what he did, he went to the toilet and he jumped the train. And he said his biggest fear at that time was that they would inform on him. You know he said he was waiting for the train. Because he said, he had no papers. And he knew he would be shot. I mean they knew those were the rules. He had no papers and whatnot. Anyway, the train went on and he says probably the young soldiers didn't know until - And God knows where that train went. You know, who knows where they were going at that time. I don't know whether it was to Oswiecim or what. But anyway, none of those friends survived the war. So what he did - Oh yes, another part of the story which I haven't told, is I told you his sister was a member of the Communist Party in Poland. And his younger brother. And apparently they had got quite high up in the hierarchy. And I really don't know, because I - I should have discussed this with him, but I didn't know until I researched it. Most of the Polish Communists got shot. So I don't know how, but apparently Sally - that was his sister's name - got very high up. And she went into Russia. As did the younger brother. They were in Russia working as officials in the Communist Party. But the brother went back to look after the parents in Poland. His older brother was in the business. And his younger brother sort of went back to the parents.

And did Sally survive the war?

She actually survived the war. She's the only relative - well, she's the only one of the immediate family. They have cousins who survived. None of my mother's sisters and brothers, any of them. And she was one of 8. None of them survived the war. Sally was the only one who survived on my father's side.

And is she still living in Russia?

No, she died. She came out in l956. She was obviously very ill of cancer. And it was interesting. They let her out. And she went to Paris. And she had a son. But she died - she was already dying of cancer when they let her out. And she was very disillusioned. Because as a youth she was a great Communist. But of course when she went to Russia, she found such anti-Semitism there. But she survived the war. So she had been - oh, there'd been an international conference or whatever they called them, in Belgium I think, in l936. And she was pretty high up. And she used to travel. And she had a lot of associates and whatever you want to call them.

End of F4l7 Side A

F4l7 Side B

So he jumped the train. And we're talking about the autumn of l940. And what he did, he went back - he walked, I mean, you know, you didn't get on a bus or train, and you had to go in hiding. He had relatives and things in Paris and he went back to - an apartment where he had been living or something, and somewhere there he had hidden some jewellery. And he managed to get this. And he sort of got himself incognito. You know, he stayed with people he could trust. Because they hadn't started rounding up in Paris then. Paris was - it was still completely, you know, open and free and whatnot. And he went to - but what he did is, they were taking back the non-Jews that they had captured in Belgium. They were taking labour back, allowing them back into Belgium. And he said they were going by coach or something. I don't think it was by train. Paris station or something, was sort of taking coaches or something. And what he did, he got himself on board and he bribed himself onboard one of these buses. And he got back into Brussels that way. Yeh. He got to the apartment where they lived and he had to smuggle himself in, because there was a nanny. And couldn't trust anyone.

Was this an apartment block or a house?

I have no knowledge of it.

Or the area?

Well, I was told I was born in what was called the Queens Nursing Home in Brussels. I mean it was all private. I mean they had money. They were very well off. It must have been quite a decent apartment. And they had a nanny and everything. Even though he'd been away for 6 months. They had the protection of the cousin who sort of - I think there was a problem about rationing. But they bought on black market. I mean they had plenty of money and everything. Anyway, he smuggled himself back into the apartment. And I know my mother had to tell the nanny to go away for a few weeks or something like that. Oh yes, now this is interesting. That's right - When we were there, in Belgium, - although of course my mother speaks about, you know, sort of the good old days, whenever they were, when mothers and children, you know, all were completely whatsit - is that the nanny used to take us away into the country sort of for a few weeks at a time sort of thing, you know. And to her family home and everything. And so when my father came back, they sent the nanny away. The nanny didn't know my father was there. Because he had no papers. He was a foreign Jew. And it was very dangerous. He said to my mother - they felt they had to get back to Paris, because Paris being a large city, that it would be much more easy. Whereas Brussels it was a small community. As he said, even sort of - that's right, my father's cousin used to buy extra rations for them. But he said it was at the stage, you know, whereas you're buying extra rations for three people, the butcher realised and that sort of thing. It was very dangerous. So he felt that going to Paris was much more sensible. Now my mother had to register every week. So she used to go and register. And the story that she told. Because they didn't have computers in those days and everything. And he was - and he was - and what he says is that it's very obvious that at that time the bureaucratic machinery was not, you know, working properly, and they didn't have proper lists and that sort of thing. So he felt pretty secure that even though he was missing, probably they wouldn't tie it in right away that she was in Belgium and whatnot. But he felt they had to get out of Belgium and go into Paris. So she went - and she had to register every week. I don't think it was actually the Germans. I think you had to register with the local police sort of thing.

And how many children did they take with them?

Just my sister and me. My sister was five years older than me. So I was about 8 months old. And my sister would have been about 6. Now my sister of course, would have been at the age where - she was dangerous, because she would have been old enough to say things and not old enough not to know what you weren't supposed to say. And I think that's right. I think even she didn't know he was in the house. They had to keep it from her. Because, you know, children do blurt out things. But I was too little to - anything. So she went to the police and said that as her husband was taken away and she had no means of support, could she go and stay with her sister in Paris. And they gave her official documentation to go to Paris. And she said what she did, she got all the jewellery and everything and she packed it in my nappies and everything. She went to Paris on the train. She went and stayed with her sister. My father had to walk into Paris. Took, you know, months. He had contacts with some of my - his sister's, you know, Communist things. And they helped him and whatnot. He eventually got back into Paris. Now here is where obviously the feelings between the two sides of the family were very strong. My mother's sisters didn't want her to have anything to do with him. The attitude was, you know, he's been captured because of what he is, you know. He's a loud mouth. He's beneath you. All that sort of thing. So she stayed with us with her sister. And my father actually went to stay with another relative, a cousin. Now the cousin lived in an eleventh arrondissement. And I think it was the Boulevard Voltaire. I think that's what it was called. My memory is not so marvellous. It was near one of the stations. Now he went and knocked on this cousin's door. And as he puts it, the cousin wanted him like a lokenkupsul(ph) sort of thing. Really didn't want him. But my father's the type, talks himself in anything. So he talked himself, you know, that he could stay. A bribe. So he stayed with them. Now apparently this is the winter of probably the beginning of l94l. Right. So my mother stayed with her sister. And she used to meet with my father. And she used to have to sort of get on four trains and buses to make sure she wasn't being followed. And it was pretty dangerous. And I think she - she used to not take my sister and all that sort of thing, because - Anyway, her sister really wanted her to have nothing to do with him. And eventually what they did is my father got my mother and my sister and I put into a hotel that was run by - well they were in the Maquis. I don't think it was the Maquis. But they were sort of contacts of my aunt. They were Communists. They ran a little hotel somewhere. I don't know what part of Paris it was. Anyway, he tells the story, it was June. He told me the date, I don't remember it. He was staying with his cousin. And the wife and the children had gone off as - they were all very wealthy. And they had a summer house and the wife and the children had gone away for the summer. And he was in this apartment with his cousin. Oh, and another story he tells, which is very relevant. How he - he got very friendly with the porter, the concierge. And he used to go gambling and out drinking with him. And my father's cousin was really, you know, sort of to mix with the low life and that. And they obviously didn't want anything to do with my father. But my father had talked himself in and he was there sort of thing. Anyway. So he got very friendly with the porter. Anyway, he says how he woke up one night and he could sense there was something strange. And there hadn't been any of the roundings up in Paris up until this time. And he said he could hear strange noises in the street, of lorries and things. And he couldn't work out what it was. And he went down. And this was about 4 in the morning. He went down and woke the porter up. And the porter went out, and he came back. And he was ashen faced. And he told them that they've got lists, that the lorries are stopping. And my father told me these stories years ago, and of course when he started telling these stories I didn't believe half of them, because they seemed too fantastic. But he told me the date and I've got it written somewhere. And I've

9 checked since, and it was the day the first roundings started up. And they started in the eleventh arrondissement, and Boulevard Voltaire. So it was interesting when I started doing the research, that everything he told me was absolutely true. Because I had assumed, as one always does, that there's a lot of romanticising. But no. So what happened was, he talked the porter in - the cousin wanted to throw him out on the streets, "Because", he says, "you're the one without papers". And my father said, "Don't be so stupid. They'll pick me up, they'll torture me, I'll tell them where I stayed", you know, sort of thing. Anyway, what happened was, the porter boarded the outside of the apartment up. Which they used to do, shutter it up when people went away for the summer. And he said that he and the cousin hid under the stairs. And they could hear exactly what the porter said, that the lorries are stopping outside the apartment blocks. They're going in with their lists. And they know exactly where the Jews are and they're taking them out. And my father said they were hiding in the apartment, under the beds, and he said their knees were knocking, you know. And they heard these soldiers coming up the stairs. And after all, I mean he had been gambling and whatsit, with the porter, you know, who was to know. And he said he heard them. They knocked on the doors. They knew exactly, you know, where the Jews lived. And everyone went - and he said no one argued. You know, everybody went. Just assuming, well, you know, it's all a formality, we just go and register, and all this sort of thing. And the porter did, the porter said that Mr and Mrs - I think it was Ruben, I can't remember exactly - have gone away for the summer. And the Germans look on their list. And Mrs Ruben and the children were down as being away. But Mr Ruben was down. And the porter said, "No, he just went this morning, that's why he's not on your list". As my father said, it was the first rounding up, the soldiers didn't know. He said, "A week later they would have burst the doors down". Anyway, the soldiers went away. And my father said he and his cousin stayed there until nightfall. But this was like at 5 in the morning. They stayed there until the evening. And he said they crept out. And they walked round the streets. And he said you couldn't see one Jewish face. He said, "Not one Jewish face". And he said he went over to the station and he phoned the hotel. And the person at the other end - obviously, you know, you had to be so careful what you said - and she said something to the extent - he asked for my mother - and the woman said something to the extent, "Oh, they're not here, but the laundry will be coming to get you in the evening", or whatnot. Anyway, they did, they got my father and the cousin, and they took my mother and my sister and me, out to some sort of safe house somewhere outside Paris. This is June l94l. And they discussed it and whatnot. Now apparently they felt that my mother would still be safe. I don't know whether it was only the men they were taking then, or what. But it was very dangerous for my mother to be with my father. She still had papers, so still was technically legal. He didn't. The Maquis were going to get my father down into Vichy. And they offered to take the cousin as well. But the cousin, you know, - the attitude was, "Look", you know, "we're all professionals". The attitude was, "It's all you foreign", you know, "rubbish that are causing all this trouble. We're French". All this sort of thing. Right? So what happened was my mother went back to Paris. And she stayed there with my sister and me for about another 6 months. And my father was taken down to Vichy. Now that's where Lyon is, yeh. And he stayed in a little town outside Vichy, called Charsee de Avenue, or something. I've got it written down. Which at that time was a little town. Now it's part of Lyon, the suburbs have spread out. And he registered as a Jew. And he was there. And he lived there. And he managed to have the jewellery and everything. And he was there - crumbs, now let me think of the dates here that we're talking about - So this is June '4l. July '4l. Yeh, that's right. I think - it was - he was there - I think it was not until the beginning of l942 that the - laws changed in Vichy. Now it was more or less at the same time. It must have been somewhere around January, February '42. My

10 mother had to register every week. She was still staying at the hotel. This little hotel. And she had to register every week.

They obviously knew that she was Jewish?

Oh yes. Oh yes. She wore the star. Everything. And my sister wore the star and I wore the star, you know, and we went - And every week she had to register with the police. So she went along to register. And this is early '42, something like that. And she tells the story, you know, these stories, how they happen. My sister and I - she said there was two officials. And one was nice and the other one was a right bastard. And there was a very long queue for the nice one, because people preferred him. And the right bastard, who really was awful, there was hardly anyone there. And she went and joined his queue. But apparently I was screaming and yelling, and my sister was bored and was running around. And he got really angry with her. And told her to go and wait outside with us. And she was so shaken, because she obviously was a very timid woman. And my father was a very domineering man. And that's how she survived. She did everything he told her. I mean she didn't question or anything. He said, "You stay in Paris, it's safer". She stayed in Paris. It's safer. Right. Anyway, she went to register. So she waited outside until there wasn't anyone there. And she went. And the nicer official, she went to him. And she gave her name as Bronya Zimetbaum. And he made a whole thing. He couldn't find our names and this, that and the other. And she said she saw the name on the list and she started pointing to it. And he said, "Oh no, that's not it". And she said he asked the other official to go and look at some files or something. And the minute he went, the man warned her. He said, "Your name is on the list, you're going to be rounded up. If you can get out, get out". I suppose, you know, with young children, you know -

This was a Frenchman?

This was a Frenchman. The police. So she went back to the hotel and told the woman. And apparently they arranged for us to get out. And we were supposed to go at 6 o'clock in the morning. But there was some confusion over the time. And they came at 5. And my mother said how she didn't want to wake us up. And the man said, "No, either you come now or you don't go", sort of thing. She left at 5. And apparently they came for us at 6. Yes. Yeh, yeh. And as I said, I know she is inclined to romanticise, but my father says that the woman from the hotel wrote and said how they'd gone. And they all played innocent. They didn't realise. And all that sort of thing. Anyway, so we were down in Vichy. We were down in Charsee. And we joined my father. And he had rented a house. And it's interesting, because I tried to find the house, because he described it. And I couldn't find it. But he had rented the house. And - in Charsee. And so we still obviously had a lot of money. And all the way along the line he told how he bribed and, you know, all this.

Were there difficulties with your mother travelling at that time?

That was done. We were taken in a lorry.

And do you know who organised that?

It was the Maquis. It was the Maquis. The people at the hotel. Because of my aunt's communist connections, he had a sort of - It was quite interesting, because he said they tried to talk him into joining the Maquis and everything. And my father's a hedonist. I mean,

11 you know, undoubtedly. And - you know, there was all this ideological clash. I mean they obviously looked upon him as an absolute bastard. But because they respected his sister, they did it.

Did they have to pay the Maquis?

Yes, they did. He says there's all this sentimentality and whatsit. He said but all the way along the line it was a ruby here, a saphire there. He says the only thing is, they could just have easily turned you in, and they didn't. You know. But he said - he said those that didn't have, he said, didn't survive. And you have to put it in context. I mean especially in Vichy. There was no food. You know. It was very dangerous for people to hide and all this. Anyway.

Did your mother have any confrontations with any Germans at all when she was in Paris?

Very little. They tell one story, how my sister, who went to school, and she had to wear the star. She - my sister was a tomboy. And they, of course, as was very typical in those days, they protected the children completely. I mean my sister, who was by that time 7, had absolutely no idea. And it's very interesting, because my sister still tells a story. And it's interesting, the different sides of it. Because she didn't like my father. And there's no doubt, he was a very authoritarian, you know, sort of person. And she tells a story of how - her view of it was that she was out playing and she came home a bit late. And he beat the living daylights out of her. And how my parents tell the story is when they were in hiding, when my father was still in Paris, he said my mother came - and she wasn't supposed to come to him. But one day she came in an absolute state. It was like 8 o'clock in the evening. And Lillian hadn't come home from school. And they thought she'd been taken. And my father went out, which so dangerous, and they hunt through the streets, and they found her playing, you know - you know, just in the street, little street gutter. And he says "I beat the living daylights out of her". And it was just two completely - I mean to my sister he was just a bully who just beat her to death. He was the wicked stepfather. Whereas he, you know, was trying to protect her. So anyway, - so - So that was the thing. No, as far as I'm aware, she doesn't speak of having had any confrontation with the Germans or anything.

And was Lillian's schooling segregated. Does she remember suffering anything at school?

No, what is interesting is my sister, who must - well, who should have had memories, has virtually no memories of what happened. Which is very - you know - it's complete blocking. It's very interesting. And it's interesting, because I've interviewed people, and my sister is completely not involved in the Jewish community or anything. And she just doesn't want to have - she doesn't want to be a refugee. I mean this is very typical. We didn't. The stigma as far as we were concerned was being refugees after the war, you know what I mean. What had happened before the war - We had not been that much affected personally. It was the stigma that happened to us after the war that made us want not to be involved. But anyway, so in the winter of '42 we were all down in this house in Vichy. And then the rules changed. And my father got rounded up again. And he was put into a camp at Annecy. Which is near the borders with Switzerland. And he said this time it was for real. Once again, Vichy was still officially independent. And he says the camp was run by - oh crumbs, I always mix them up - I think - it's one of the islands that belongs to France. And I always mix them up. Well, anyway, the inference is that it was equivalent to the Maffia type. And he says they were all rough and whatnot. But my father started playing cards with them. You know.

What was his particular game?

I mean he was a gambler. He was a gambler and he mixed with the guards and he got friendly with the guards. And also my mother was able to come to the camp and bring food and things. Oh yes, now this is interesting. Up until - all this time he had been able to send stuff to his family in Poland. He'd written to them, he'd sent them goods. And it was when he was in Vichy that the letters started coming back, you know, 'Not Known', or whatever. So that was '42. They all went to Oswiecim, all his family, in Poland. So he was in this camp. And he said they were building the track. You know, they were - And he said by now everyone knew what was going on. Because - you know - wherever you went, although it was all supposed to be anonymous and nobody knew, he said there were like set routes and set places. And you'd still go to cafes. And he said you could still tell who the Jews were.

Did you mean that they were building the track to Poland?

That's what he says. Yes. He said that he was in Annecy. That they were working on - on - on tracks, railway. That's what he says. You know. He's never gone into it a great deal. But what he says with half amusement, is that wasn't his bag. I mean basically my father - his goal was not - to survive the war. His goal was not to get involved with any dirty work. I mean that's basically what he was all about. And that's why he befriended, you know, and he -

And he wasn't working in this camp. Was this a sort of internment camp?

It was an internment camp. And what was interesting, he said - I think it was all Jews. But what he said is the German Jews were beating up the Litvak Jews. And the Litvak Jews were beating up - you know - The attitude of the - Oh, and the French Jews. The attitude of the French and the German Jews was, "If it wasn't for you - you know - dirty lot, you uneducated, you know, whatsit lot". This was even in l942. And he said, you know, there was such animosity between the different groups. You know, the French and German Jews were very - because of course France had tried to keep - save its own Jews. Even Vichy. Jewish born - French born Jews, they tried to keep, you know. So the whole attitude was - So it was an internment camp. But he said - he said everyone knew what was going on and what would happen if they got - you know -

They did know then about gassing and mass extermination?

He said because people were filtering and - you know - people had escaped. He said it was well known. And, as I said, when I did the research, I found out about this group of a hundred children that had gone out in l94l. They'd got out from Girse? And I interviewed a woman who was involved in the evacuation. She was a lawyer in America. And she tells of what happened when the children came to New York in l94l. "So they bloody knew exactly what was happening". And it's very interesting. I interviewed her before the recent opening of the archives and everything. And so they did know. They did know in l94l even. But, you know, sort of all the Jews in France. You know, because you did know, because the envelopes were coming back. And - it was more than rumours now. Although he said the majority of them didn't believe it. But he did. As he said, you know, having been brought up on stories of the pogroms and everything, he believed it. And yes, he did believe it. So when he was in this internment camp in Annecy. And my mother was still able to come to the

13 camp and give food and everything. And apparently what happened was, he told her to bring some jewellery. And of course by this time the jewellery was nearly gone. And he bribed one of the guards. And he says how one morning he was supposed to be on the work party. And the guard called him out and sort of made a whole scene and beat him up and said he was lazy and he was going to make a - what's the word - an example of him. My father said he didn't know whether this was for real or not for real. Because he'd given him quite a lot of jewellery and everything. Because the guards used to complain, "We don't want to be here anymore than you are". This sort of thing. "We want to be home". And - you know - You know, it was the brutalising, you know, the victims, and they were all more or less the same sort of thing.

Was your father still able to buy food on the black market at this time?

As I said, my mother was able to bring money to the camp. Money and food to the internment camp.

And he actually just lived off that?

Yes. Yes. And he says there was all this open bribery of the guards and this sort of thing. Now what is interesting, what he said is this time, whereas the first time when he was taken with his friends to France, that time he tried to talk them all into escaping. He said this time he didn't tell anyone. You know. He said you just didn't trust anyone. Because people were so frightened that they would go running to the guards. Anyhow, what happened was, they took him to the hospital in Annecy. And it sounds so far fetched, but he tells it. And as I said, everything I've been able to trace. The guards took him in a car to the - they said that - the guards sort of made an example and said, "We're going to prove to you lot that you can't get away with malingering. And we're going to prove that there's nothing wrong with him. Because he's a malingerer". And they took him to the hospital. And they told him to go to the toilets when he got there. And they were closed there. And there was somebody there with a motorbike who took him back to Charsee. Right, so now this already is -

Who arranged that escape?

Well, what he says is that - it had been - it was the people in Charsee, where he was in hiding, non-Jews, who he had lived with and been friendly with and drank with. My mother had brought the jewellery to my father. And my father had bribed the guards to take him to the hospital. But the people in Charsee, who he had befriended, and no doubt given quite a lot of money, it was them who came with the motorbike, and took him down to Charsee. Which is - I don't know - probably a two or three hour ride from Annecy. Right, so now we're talking about - it was already October l942. Just before Vichy was going to fall. And he said by now they were just completely emotionally drained. And - and - and - my mother - it's hard to know - but, you know, she was more or less completely shell shocked. I mean things were happening. It was getting very hard even in Charsee. There was no food. And they'd been living in this little town. There were other Jews there and whatnot. It was like a centre where the Jews had gone to Lyon to register. And they were in the villages round there. But it was becoming very dangerous. And he decided they had to go over the Pyrenees. Now what he said is - it's fascinating, because he actually has a photo when he was in the camp, the guards took it. And he - he could pass as a Frenchman.

What did he look like actually, just so that we can visualise him. If you could just describe what your parents look like?

Well, I would say my father is a very typical Polish Jew. He's short. He's dumpy. He's got very - well he's blue eyed and fair skinned. Dark hair. Actually he was virtually bald. But, you know, what was there was dark. And - I wouldn't say overtly semitic features. But interesting, the photos I've seen of him, he was able to almost pass as a French peasant. He had that sort of rugged look. Rather than - absolutely semitic look. It was more rugged. But very - like I have, the blue eyes and the fair skin. So, you know, obviously things happen in pogroms. You know. Because how we could have evolved so differently.

End of F4l7 Side B

F418 Side A

.... a very attractive woman. Really very beautiful. She had dark hair. Very - she was quite petite. About 5' 2". And my father wasn't much taller actually. He's about 5' 7". She was very petite. Very fine boned. She almost has an oriental look to her. Something about her eyes. But - you know, where that comes from I really haven't got the foggiest idea. She has dark eyes. And - probably an olive skin. But really - and the photos of her in Paris, she was very sophisticated and very, very attractive and very chic. And - anyway, so now we're back - that's right - so my father decided they had to escape over the Pyrenees. Now what he did is he went and - crumbs I'm trying to think - there's a big town right on the Pyrenees. I can't remember the name of it off-hand. But it was like a route. And he went. And he used to sit in the cafes watching. And he said you could see - he said you could see who the Jews were. And you could see who were the guides. And you could openly see money passing and things passing. And of course officially Vichy was not occupied. But of course unofficially it was. And there were Germans everywhere and soldiers and everything. And he sat there watching for several days. And he said you'd see this happening, this transaction with the guides. But you'd see them go off. And he said about two or three hours later you'd see the guides come back. So he said you knew that the guides had taken the money and turned the Jews over, because there's no way you can pass the Pyrenees - you know, in a few hours. And so what he did is over a period - he had a bicycle and everything. And he sort of stayed on farms and everything. Because he spoke perfect French. And he - he - he went and sat in little villages. And sort of sat in the cafes and befriended people. And eventually he befriended somebody and told them. And they said they would take him across the Pyrenees. Now he said he didn't take - he didn't go with us because, you know, he didn't know for certain if he could trust - And the underlaying feeling about all of this was that a woman with two children might just possibly survive. Whereas if she was with him she might not. Because if the Germans found them together they would shoot them. But there was always the hope - because always along the line, like the French policeman, I mean when you've got a young baby in your arm and a young child, a little bit of humanity does get shown. And in Charsee de Sur for instance, they could hide her. The peasants were happier to hide a woman with a child than to hide a man. It was all like that. So he actually crossed the Pyrenees end of October l942, with the guide. And it took them a few days. Two or three days. And actually what happened was, the guide got him across. And got him down into Barcelona. Right. Now in Barcelona the Quakers were acting as agents for the - the Joint - it was an American aid organisation. The Joint was in Portugal, they weren't allowed to be in Spain. And this I have researched quite extensively and is a fascinating story. The - the Quakers, the American Friends Service Committee, had offices in Barcelona. And there was a camp in Spain called Katmaranda. Because there had been a huge influx. And up until that time sometimes the Spanish sent them back, sometimes they didn't. Because both Spain and Portugal were trying to get other countries to take the Jews out, and they wouldn't. So Portugal was more or less flooded out, as was Spain. Spain had a complete embargo on it, so there was a lot of poverty. Anyway, he got down to Barcelona. And went to the American Service Committee. The chap was called David Bisencott. And it's interesting, because my father spoke about this chap. And of course when I did the research, you know, and I read the papers, it was absolutely fascinating, to sort of see the other person.

And do you know how much your father had to bribe the guide to take him over the mountains?

It was all jewellery. So it wasn't any specific amount he gave him. But what he did is, he gave the guide money to go back and get us, to bring us back. And by this time, as my father said, virtually everything was gone. They really were, you know, sort of last few rubies and things. But what is interesting is, that because he put it into coloured stones - you know, a ruby which, I don't know, might have cost £l00, as opposed to £l,000 for a diamond, it was more likely to save your life. Because these peasants. But a nice bright red stone more than a little tiny diamond would. So he said, you know, he'd had sort of very big stones, which really weren't worth that much, but it - you know -

Were some of them actually paste?

No, I think it was all jewellery. No, - you know - I mean - he would have - you know, sort of - he was in jewellery. And - this was a Polish thing, they always put their money into things you could pick up and run. It was sort of in their cultural heritage. Anyway, he sent the guide back to get us. And he went to the friends. And - the chap warned him that they couldn't register him, because all males had to go to the camp. And they said to him if he can get into Portugal - because of course at that time they were expecting - Vichy fell more or less the same week he went. And they thought that Spain would go the next - you know - within a few months. Right, now what happened was, the guide came back and took my mother and sister and me over the mountains. And when we came over - and my mother says there was a handful of us, about four or five, some men and whatnot. And because they took a group from Charsee. And she said I was crying and it was very dangerous. And they wanted to suffocate me and all that sort of thing. Because there were Germans in the mountain no doubt. Anyway, what happened when they got to the border, they were caught by the Spanish. And we were put into prison. My sister was put into a convent. But I was able to stay with my mother in the prison. But she said the Spanish were very kind. She said they fed us. And she said the - sort of the prison guard's wife even took me out and took me round. And they gave her cigarettes. So they were very kind to her.

Do you know what sort of living conditions she was in?

She was actually in prison. She was actually in a cell.

I mean in the cell. It was a fairly austere cell?

Yes, it was. But she said they - you know, they - especially with her having the child. They brought food in, you know. The local community, they brought food in. And the guards would give me chocolate. And cigarettes. So - I think because she had this young child she was probably treated - But she said they were kind. But, you know, they were saturated. They - you know - And from the stuff I have researched, by that time it doesn't appear they were sending people back. Although they had been up until very recently. You know. It was a matter of luck on the day whether they sent you back or not. Anyway, so she was in prison. My father got to Portugal. It took him - as he says, if he'd got on a train it would have taken two days. But you had to - you know - and he sort of hid and he walked. But he tells how he jumped on a train and he said he was in the compartment and he was always watching out. Because Spain was still officially independent. But he said there were Germans there. But also, you know, you were a foreigner, you didn't have papers. And all male Jews were being put into the camp Miranda. He was on the train and he fell asleep. And he was in the compartment. And he woke up and he saw the officials coming to check, you know, the papers and things. And he said, you know, he'd had it. And it was like a little

17 compartment. And he said there was a woman in the compartment, obviously, you know, quite well-off and whatnot, and she sensed what was happening. And she told the official that he was her gardener. I mean, you know, never seen him before and whatnot. And they both say that whatever the Spanish - whatever people say about them - the people were, you know, very kind and obviously were very - Anyway, he got to Portugal. What happened, he got right over to the other side of Spain. Bribed someone - because they were smuggling, you know - and - there was a known route, that's right. He was told in Barcelona - he was told, you know, sort of which - where to go. And what cafe and what waiters, you know, all this sort of thing. So this was on the border with Portugal. On the East coast of - no, the West coast of Spain. Anyway, he got smuggled onto a boat. And he got taken into a port. And he went down to Lisbon. And he went to Lisbon. And he - by this time as he said, you know - Vichy had already fallen. And they expected Spain to go. And by now he knew his family were dead. He was completely demoralised. They had no money left, nothing.

Was he in contact with your mother at all?

No, I think at this stage he thought we had gone. He thought - you know, we hadn't turned up and he thought we were gone. So he was completely, you know, he was completely demoralised and he thought we'd gone. And so he - he went to - he was Polish. And the Quakers had told him that the British had the Polish Free Forces. And they said, "Your only chance is to go there". Because of course no one could get visas out of - the Peninsular or anything. And that was the thing, you know. And they all expected Spain to fall and that they would be shipped away. So he went to the British Consul or whatever in Lisbon. And said he wanted to sign on with the Polish Free Forces, or whatever. And they said, "Well you'll have to get an exit visa. And the only way you can get that is through the Polish Embassy". So as he said, the Poles were more anti-semitic than the Germans. But he thought we were all gone. And he just had no option, you know. The British would have sent him back. He didn't have papers. He had to get an exit visa. So he went to the Polish Embassy. And one of those, you know, flukes or whatever you want to call it, coincidences. And he said he was a completely broken man. And I mean there's no question in my mind, by now he was completely mentally unbalanced. I mean what I knew of them after the war. And he went along to the Polish Embassy. And he said he went and sat down at the official - he was shown into an official's office. And he said he didn't even look the chap in the face. He just sat there completely broken. And he said he wanted to join - and would he give him an exit visa. And the official was explaining it's absolutely impossible and this, that and the other. And of course my father didn't particularly want to say he was a Jew. But, you know - there was no real way of avoiding it. Anyway, the official asked him where he came from. And he said Tarnov. And he asked his name. And he said Isaac Zimetbaum. And the official said, "Are you...?" - and I can't remember his brother's name. "Are you so and so Zimetbaum's brother?" And I mean, you know - what he'd lived through and everything. And the chap said, "Don't you remember me?" It was the Chief of Police's son who had gone to school with his brother. And he gave him an exit visa. So he went back to the British. And he said - it was - January - no Christmas Day l943. They took him to Gibraltar. And from there he came to Britain. So it was January l943 he got into Britain. So it was Christmas Day l942 he was in Gibraltar. So January l943 he got into Britain.

As part of the Polish Free Fighting Forces?

Yes. And he said when he got into Britain, the minute he was on British soil, he went to whoever it was - I don't know, commanding officer. Because the Polish Free Forces sort of

18 were under the - Oh, that's right, he had to register with the Foreign Office or whatever it was. And he went along and he said to them, "I am a Jew. I do not want to be in the Polish Free Forces, because they are all anti-semites". And they transferred him to the Pioneer Corp, because he spoke - don't forget, he spoke about five or six languages. And - I think it was Aldershot he was at. And I think they wanted him as an interpreter. And although he doesn't tell me this, I'm convinced he had a complete mental breakdown at that stage. And he was invalided out. But he was British. You know. Now what had happened in the meantime. We'd got to the thing - into the prison. And the Quakers, they then had to register us. And the Quakers, what was happening was the Joint Distribution Committee in Spain had raised money, and they in fact were giving money to the Quakers, who were feeding us and clothing us and looking after us. And - well, it's interesting, because the Quakers, it's fascinating, because I've done the research. The Quakers played it all completely straight. I mean they were genuinely good people. Almost absolutely naive. When you read some of their reports. But the Joint were made up of Jews who knew the lay of the land. So they were trying to get them to do bribery and whatnot. And the Quakers weren't having - You know, they were just being good. But - so the Joint were smuggling money in to Spain. And the Quakers were using it. So we were kept - we then were in - we came out of prison and we were put somewhere. In Barcelona they sort of had little colonies for the women. But they thought that Spain was going to fall. Now to go back to the American Committee For The Care of European Children. This had been set up in l940. And it had evacuated a lot of children out of Britain to live in America during the war. A boat called The City of Baranas(ph) had sunk. And there had been a big uproar here and whatnot. Now what had happened was, the Joint and another few other American groups tried to get the American government - They had given virtually open visas to any European child. By that they meant British children. They were trying to get them to transfer the scheme to the children in France. Because when France fell, the French had got the Germans to accept - the French born Jews in the beginning were allowed to stay. And what had happened was, a lot of the parents were Polish Jews and things like that. And the children were born in France. And they were being rounded up in children's villages. And they were like children's - well, to use the word 'camp' is - but they were like children's villages in Vichy. And the head of this thing had gone to America and they were trying to get the Americans to change the visas for - and they wouldn't.

And this committee was set up just for Jewish children in Europe, or any child?

No, it was set up when the war first started. It was set up to take children out of Europe. But in fact - it really had been for the British children, you know. Now a lot of Jewish children had gone. Greville Janner went. And it's quite interesting, because I read the - his father - I've read all the Hansard reports. Greville Janner was an MP at that time. Did not utter one word in parliament about the Jewish children in Europe. Not one word that I can find. And I've researched this. But Greville went - he was one of the children who went. And he went with his mother I believe. And - what's her name - Shirley Williams was one of those children. And Elizabeth Taylor was one of those children. So the idea was to take the children and put them in foster homes. Right. So this whole sort of thing had been set up. And, you know, it was a Utopian idea. And there was a very interesting documentary about the English children and how difficult it was for them. Anyway, the City of Veranus had sunk. I don't know, l940, about six months after. And the whole thing had stopped. And what was happening is the Joint and a few other agencies were trying to get the American government to transfer the whole thing to the Jewish children in Europe. And they bloody wouldn't. You know. It's all very well taking nice children - Because the attitude was

'well, you know, these foreigners'. Because, of course, in the 30's in America, there had been, you know, the - the - what do you call it - the - the economy had gone bad on them and they didn't want foreign labour and things like that. So it is interesting, because I have researched this quite extensively. A lot of even Jews in high places, they didn't want the European. Their attitude was 'oh, you know, they're dirty, illiterate people, you know, and we don't really want them here'. Anyway, what happened, in l94l they'd got a hundred visas and they'd got a hundred children out from Girse(ph) And it was the most heartbreaking story. I won't go into it at the moment, because I've researched it and I've interviewed people involved in it. And they say how they took these children over. And they were traumatised. And there was even a catonic - thing. And they sent it to Ellis Island. And that the understanding - you know, sort of people said, "How can these parents send these children in rags?" And the parents were in camp in Girse(ph) You know, there was just - they saw, but it was beyond their understanding, you know. Their attitude was, "These poor children, we have to Americanise them". And they completely cut them off from their past. That was the terrible thing they did to us. You know, they sort of - we had - you know - Anyway, so what happened was that finally, in - in November '42, they got - The Americans wanted to give 500 visas for these children in France. And the ship sailed in November l942. They hired the Serpa Pinta, and they sailed to Lisbon. And it was all set up that the Red Cross were going to bring 500 children out of France. And when the ship sailed Vichy had fallen and whatnot. Anyway, they got to Portugal, and then they realised that there were a lot of children in Portugal and Spain. Some were orphans. Some had already been brought. But many were like us, they had families and things. Anyway, they wrangled over it for a while. But they wouldn't - they wouldn't allow any of the adults visas. But they agreed that they could take out a hundred of the children to America. Now my father said my mother refused to sign to let us go. But apparently the Joint contacted my father in Britain, and he signed the paper. And it's interesting, because this has been - you know, my mother harboured that as a grudge against him all her life. And because as he said, you know, he thought that Spain would fall. They all thought Spain would fall and that everyone would go. But the Americans wouldn't give visas for the adults. Now what is interesting, having researched it, there is no question but that they all knew my parents were alive. Even though my foster parents denied that. Anyway.. So - and there was a whole thing. The American Ambassador in Spain refused to give - I didn't have a passport, you know. And he refused to allow me to go. And I found a telegram with my name on it that the State Department agreed that I should go. Even though I didn't have a passport. I mean it was an Alice in Wonderland situation.

You would only have been about 2 or 3?

Yes. I was - I was 3 years old when I went. I actually sailed in June. The first convoy went in January, with about 22 children on it. We couldn't go on that because I didn't have a passport. So - the children I showed you in that photo. 2l of us went in June l943. To America. And we were fostered out.

Were there nurses onboard the ship to look after you. Was it well organised?

Yes, it was very well organised. Because I've actually interviewed the woman lawyer who was involved, who came over. And it was like a whole thing had been set up. They had psychologists and they had nurses and they had escorts and everything. It was a mercy mission. But behind - underneath it all - the mission was to take the children away from

Europe. To America. It wasn't just to save them, it was to Americanise them. That was their philosophy.

Were these mainly Jewish children onboard?

Yes, although some of them weren't. It's interesting, because when I've researched it, a few of them were children of parents who had been involved in the Spanish Civil War. Who had lived in France, because they'd been on the wrong side of the thing. And their parents lives were in danger. Because - you know, with the Nazis, they'd fought on the wrong side or whatnot. But another thing is, some of them were children of Portuguese officials who just wanted them to go away for a new life. I mean the whole idea was that Europe was finished. And they didn't want not just to be under Nazi occupation, but it was so impoverished. And it was interesting, having looked through the archives, the fear in America was that some of the children would be sent there as an anchor. As a means of getting their parents over. I mean that was looked upon as being absolutely terrible. And they had to sign, the parents had to sign, to say that they wouldn't apply for visas, you know, all that sort of thing. Anyway, when the children got to America. It was interesting, because all this whatsit - Of course when you actually have to take children into homes it's not that easy. And it was very difficult to put children into homes. My own sister was very ill on the boat and they knew - and she had a different surname. Of course.

What was her surname?

Her name was Maliga(ph). And somehow we got divided and they didn't realise we were sisters. She was very ill and they thought she had TB. So when she came in - and in those days it didn't matter who or what you were, if you weren't a hundred percent fit you didn't get in. So they put her in hospital. And she was there for a few months. And I was fostered with a family. And it's interesting, because I spoke perfect French and all this. And it's interesting, because my mother had always said it, but when I found the documentation - I found it in - you know, they remarked on how much I spoke French.

Do you remember anything of that journey at all?

I remember - I do remember being on the boat. I have very vague memories of being on the boat. And it is interesting - it must have been that sort of because I'd been - we'd been so mobile. And - and, you know, I'd stayed with nannies and stayed in hiding. I was extremely friendly. And, you know, anyone who took my hand, I went with them. I apparently had no fear. My mother - it - it must have been completely the end for her. And she's never recovered from it. I mean she just lives in this fantasy world, you know. It was very traumatic for her. Plus the fact that mentally she could never cope with the fact that afterwards she hadn't really needed to send us. You know what I mean?

End of F4l8 Side A

F4l8 Side B

I think I finished with the fact that we arrived in America. We arrived in America on June 2lst l943. And we were taken over. We were no longer under the auspices of the Joint and the Quakers. I'm speaking from memory and I haven't looked at my papers. But there was an organisation called The German Jewish Children's Aid. Something or other. That had been founded, I suppose, in the late thirties. And it had taken over sort of responsibility for the children who were coming in. And there really were only a handful of children coming in. There had been a group of a hundred brought out of France in l94l. I don't remember if I mentioned that. They were the children that were rounded up when their parents were sent. And we were put into a sort of clearing institution. And the philosophy at that time was completely to break the kids up. And to put them into homes. And to Americanize them. And - now my sister, she was my half sister, so she had a different surname to mine. There was also another child whose mother had died and who had been taken over into Spain by her aunt. And my parents knew her family. So she has told me that she had relatives in Philadelphia. And that was the reason that we ended up in Philadelphia. Because my father had asked that we be kept together. Now my sister was put into a hospital. And I was always led to believe - And oh yes, the documentation does confirm this. That because her surname was different, they didn't realise we were sisters. All I can say is, my sister was about 8 at this time. And I think that this very much reflects the attitudes of the social workers, that the children - I mean they obviously never listened to her. I mean, you know, she was 8 years old. She must have known that I was her sister. And I think this does reflect their attitudes. Which is confirmed in all the documentation and the social work reports, not only of myself but of other children. Now - I'm not quite certain how much of the sort of - theoretical background you want, or just sort of my subjective memories of what happened?

Well mainly your subjective memories. But I think as a process and as an organisation, this is quite interesting and something that people don't know about. So if you could fill us in on that?

Well - I think I mentioned in the first half of the tape that the big problem of course was the visas. And although I had a mother - I think very few of the children actually did have mothers - but it is clear from the documentation they did know my mother was alive. Right. And that my placement - the family - it was made clear to the family that they would have to return me. Although they deny that they knew that I had a mother.

Had they been people who were perhaps childless and had applied to adopt a child?

Yes. Now I think this is also very relevant, as to who the children were placed with. The original surge for this evacuation had happened in l940. When they brought all the children over from Britain. And I think - you know, sort of the sentimentality is overcome by reality. And taking onboard other people's children isn't quite as easy as people always assume it might be. Especially children who are beyond babyhood. Now my impression is that in fact there were not many families that wanted the children, the refugee children. And whether it was more out of desperation that their monitoring of the families weren't very good. I think it was also partially of the attitude of the social workers - as I - remind you, this was originally the German Jewish Children's Aid Committee. And it is very clear that their attitude towards non-German Jews was - you know, very much that they were peasants. I have interviewed someone who actually was involved with the evacuation of the children from France, the hundred children. Who were extremely distressed that their parents were in internment. And

22 she quite openly admits that their reaction to the children coming over in rags was, "Look how the parents were looking after them". There just was absolutely no comprehension of what was going on. I mean they knew of the camps and all that sort of thing. But the attitude was, "Well, in some ways these people really, you know, they're really sub-human or something". Right, now, that I think ties in. And I think I do have to bring this in, is that the family that took me in, I was the youngest on my evacuation, although I believe at another stage a very young child was taken over. In Dr David Wyman's book, which is the only book that I have found that's got any reference, he mentions documentation that he found - from the Quakers, that there was a seven month old child. But I have never been able to trace whether this child ever went. But anyway - I was definitely the youngest one on our - evacuation. And I was 3 years old. The documentation does show I was very outward going. Very friendly. Very pretty. All - everything one would want. I was put in a family - oh, a lot of the families were paid to have the children. Yes. I was put in a family which they were so proud of, because they said it was a free family. And a good family. And in many respects it was. The - my - my adopted parents were probably in their early forties when I went to them. I call them 'adopted' because they always told me I was adopted. And I still think of them as having been my adopted parents. They were childless. He was a professor of gynaecology and obstetrics. Which is very interesting, because you have to remember we are talking about the forties. And in the thirties illegitimate children were so easy to adopt. And he was a man in a position to have got children. Subsequently - and this in a way is telling the story ahead of time - many years later I found in her attic, documentation from about a dozen adoption societies in America, in the 30's. Turning her down. And there is no question in my mind that the woman is - she is still alive - is a paranoid schizophrenic. Whether the social workers involved with us - I don't think they appreciated that she was mentally ill. Well, I'm quite certain they didn't. Anyway -

Are you able to give us their names?

Yes. His name was David Farell. And her name was Elizabeth Farell.

And they were non-Jews?

No, they were Jews. They were Jews. It's quite interesting, because she obviously had a lot of emotional problems. She - she was - I'm trying to remember - She was either of Polish or - He was definitely Russian. Well, actually I think he was actually born in Russia and was brought to America like when he was about a year old. She was American born. Of either Polish or Russian heritage. But she was at the stage where she completely sort of wanted to - you know, not be what she was. By the time I got there he was extremely established. They were very well off and they had this beautiful house. And I do remember the day - the day I went to their home. I remember being in a taxi with the woman who I can only suppose was the social worker. And I remember we turned up at the house in Church Lane. Which was where they had lived. Which was a pretty ordinary terrace sort of house. Which is where his surgery was. And a neighbour came out and - you know, she looked at me and obviously I was the expected child and she'd heard all about me and everything. And she said - she redirected the social worker. So they'd obviously just bought this house - because the child was coming. And it was a very nice house, in a very nice street. And all that. And my memories in the beginning. She was very kind and loving. And I remember when I went there I have a very vivid memory of going in with the social worker. And we had tea and whatsit in this dining room. And she was very, very loving and all this sort of thing. The social worker went. And I remember very vividly that I - she then took me up to

23 the bedroom. And I had my own bedroom and bathroom en-suite. And I remember vividly, I had this little torn dolly or something and a few pathetic things. And she took me into the bathroom and I had a bath. And I remember she was very loving and singing and all this, that and the other. And there's always been something in my memory that I couldn't work out. And of course it was that we didn't have a common language. You know. You know, I - I have very warm memories, but it was obvious we didn't understand each other.

And you were about two and a half?

Yes. No, I would have been 3.

And the town in the States was?

Philadelphia. Well, it's the suburbs of Philadelphia. I was three and a half. And the documentation, they do remark on how well I spoke French. My mother always said I did and I thought that was just - But the social workers - apparently my French - obviously not like an adult. But they say I spoke fluent French. And I was a very bright, outward going child. And then I remember - sort of she took me into the bedroom. And the - she had in the meantime got rid of everything of mine. Everything. Yes. And, you know - and she put me to bed. And I remember crying and being frightened. She lay down with me. And I remember waking up later. And I was alone. And I called out and she came up. Well - my memories were quite good in the beginning. What happened was, of course, she nullified my past. She changed my name. She - although it's interesting, because she speaks of how she wandered round with a French dictionary, talking to me in French and all that. She didn't want me to speak French. She wanted me to completely forget my memory. Now I seem to have settled down very well. Now I don't know exactly when it was, but it must have been about six months later, that the agency - My sister was put in hospital. They thought she had TB. Which of course in those days, in America if you weren't absolutely perfect, they didn't allow you in. And they would have sent you to Ellis Island apparently. But it wasn't TB, it was pneumonia or something like that. So she was in hospital for a few months. And they had a lot of trouble placing the older children. They were sort of put in all sorts of families and institutions. And what is interesting, in some of the reports some of the children had families, and they were ultra orthodox in New York. And the agency refused to put them with them. The whole attitude was 'we're giving these children a big chance, you know, we're going to Americanize them all that sort of thing'. And so they were absolutely thrilled with this home. It was everything they wanted. And apparently they came and monitored. And I do remember being taken for physical check-ups very, very regularly. We had all the X-rays and God knows what. Wyman died of lung cancer or something. I remember, you know, they obviously were seeing whether our bone structure was developing and all that sort of thing. Anyway, so -

Did you arrive slightly malnourished do you think?

It's interesting - I don't remember seeing any physical reports. The social worker's reports are very spurious. They really are. And so - you know - unbelievable, you know, Sort of, "This child walked into the arms of her foster mother. And she's very happy. And it's a very good home. And everything's marvellous. Other children are ungrateful because they want to remember their mothers". And things like that. I mean, you know - Anyway, so my sister turned up. And it is interesting, because what happened was the agency said to my foster parents that they had located my sister. And she said yes, she'd have her. And of

24 course the agency were completely taken in by her. They're not the only ones. I mean to this day she still fools people. And of course they were very thrilled that she was welcoming my sister. But of course she didn't want her. And she was very - extremely cruel to my sister. And I do remember - you see Lillian came, she was 8 years old, and she would talk to me about my mother. And I do remember, we used to get our mouths washed out with soap for discussing the past or speaking French, or anything like that. Anyway, my sister was 8. She was probably rather disturbed. But she's also that sort of character. And there was battle royal with foster mother. And I remember vividly - and of course by that time my attitude was - which my fother mother implanted in me - "What a horrible, nasty child she is. She's doing everything for her, you know, offering her all this". And I remember absolutely vividly, it was a winter's day, the snow was about three inches on the ground outside. And it was a big house, with a sort of bannister railing up the top. And I was looking down, I was supposed to be in bed. And she was yelling at my sister. And it was downstairs in the hall, which was a black and white marble hall. And I was looking down. And she screamed at my sister and said she was a liar and a thief and ungrateful, and all this. And I remember her saying to her, "Everything you've got -" - and this is a phrase that I've heard - you know, it's sort of her standard phrase. "Everything you've got in your life you owe to me. Even the air you breath", sort of thing. And my sister took off every stitch of clothes she had on and she ran out of the house. And it's quite interesting, a vicar in a nearby church found her and brought her back. And of course Mrs Farell said, "Oh, the child's so disturbed", you know. And she phoned up the social work agency and said, "Oh", you know, "everything I've done - ". And of course they took her away and they stuck her in an institution. Yes. I mean there was just absolutely no sympathy for the children. No understanding of them whatsoever.

Were you distressed when they took her away?

I think my attitude towards her - because I was completely sort of - you know, taken in by my foster mother - was that she was a nasty, horrible, little girl, you know, that didn't -. There obviously was some mental blocking, because I have virtually no memories of the past. And yet I remember the day I went into that home so clearly. And my - my memories of the first period in their home was of being very happy. Because I was very good, I adjusted, I forgot my mother, I didn't speak about it. I was her little toy. And, you know, from three and a half to 7, on the whole is quite an easy age. Yes. Anyway, so occasionally Lillian would come to tea. And also this other little girl. She wasn't little, she was about l2, the other girl. And she had also been put in an institution. And she used to come occasionally. I think the social work agencies wanted it. And, you know, by that time I think I really didn't remember who they were or what they were or why they were there. Anyway - about l946 they got another child. I remember going to the railway station, where David Farell picked her up. And she was a very pretty little girl. She was 3. She was three years younger than me. I was about 6 then. And blonde. And they told me she was from an Italian family who had died. And it's just recently that Davida has found out - just recently - that in fact she wasn't Italian. She was a Jewess. And she came over after the war. She was born at the end of the war. She was born after the war. And came over from an institution or something. Anyway, so that was the precursor. By then apparently what had happened is - sort of end of '46 - the agencies - it took a long time, I mean they knew when they took me that I had a mother. But the documentation seems to have got lost. And what happend of course was my mother came and joined my father in England. And I think it wasn't until sort of the end of '46, you know, when they sort of got everything. And that's when they started trying to trace where we were and everything. And of course my foster parents fought to keep me. The Joint had all the documentation. But apparently it was the Red Cross that did the tracing. You know, there

25 had been very little contact - You see the Quakers and the Joint had acted as the agencies in Europe. But once we came to America it was the Jewish Children's Aid, or whatever it was called, that took over. And there was no follow-up or no continuity. And I believe they just more or less turned us over to - foster agencies or something. Oh no. No, no, that's not true. The Jewish Children's Aid. Because there were social worker reports. Social workers went. But I mean they were so cursory. I mean all they saw was the big house. It was marvellous. But as I say, I was very happy there. I remember vividly - I mean my adopted mother - it was a well-off house and - you know, we had maids and all that. And I mean she used to take to her bed quite frequently. But, you know, you just don't - And I adored her. And I mean I remember we used to go out. And she'd have arguments and fights with people. But you just feel, "Oh, you know, your mother was always in the right", sort of thing. And my father, I mean he was busy being a doctor. He was a very important man. He really was. I mean we used to go to the hospital. And it was like the doors opened. And, you know, a pathway cut through. He was head of gynaecology and obstetrics. Which I find very ironic.

Were you sent to school at that time?

Yes. I went to the local school. State school. Yes, I was already integrated. I had friends. I mean - the day that he told me that - they - they - It's interesting, because in the reports they said they had been building me up to it. I have absolutely no memory of it. And I doubt that they did it. Because also in the reports they said - ah no, that's right. No, there was a report. There are several reports that my mother went to the Quakers and whatsit. And they did ask, you know, how - And my foster parents kept on saying they'd sent her photos and hadn't she got them. And I mean obviously it was all rubbish, they never did. And also at one stage my mother wanted to come to America. And they had told the agency that they'd filled the forms out. But my mother said this never happened. She wanted to go. But it was very hard - you know, because the Americans were very wary of the children acting as a bridgehead, you know. They made it clear "we'll take the children, but no relatives can come in on them", sort of thing. Anyway.

Were there any Jewish festivals observed in this American household?

Yes, we were - I know people find this very hard. But they were very - they were reformed Jews. But very religious reformed Jews. I mean we used to go to synagogue. I used to go to Sunday School. And all the festivals - Pessach, everything. We didn't keep kosher. Because of course the reformed Jews, they shifted quite away. But at that time their attitudes were 'we are a religion, not a race. The past is of no -'. You know, all these things. So yes, we did keep it. It was very American. You know, very - We went to this very - equivalent to the one at the West Central. It was a very similar sort of setup to that. We lived in the suburbs and went to that one. And actually - my father - because I refer to him as my father. Gets a bit confusing at times. He used to take us in on Sunday morning to Sunday School. And he would go into the hospital. And then he would pick us up afterwards and take us out for a meal, you know. And - it was a very sort of - free and easy, you know, whatsit. Except for when my sister was there, sort of thing. Right, so in '47 I remember very vividly coming home from school one day. And he was home. Which was very unusual. I mean this man worked. I mean basically we - he adored me. There's no question about that. But he was a doctor. It's funny, I've spoken to my sister about this a lot. His attitude towards mother. He was very - he'd come from quite a - an impoverished - orthodox home. And he was a southern Jew. Obviously brilliant. Because he'd gone - he was like the first Jew that went to, you know, the medical schools. Because we're talking about the twenties when he

26 went to medical school. And there were quotas against them. And how much he appreciated about this woman's mental condition, I really don't know. With all his brilliancy, he was a very naive man. I mean he was just one of these very, very - obviously very highly motivated, very intelligent, technical man - people. Who absolutely knew nothing at all about human nature. Anyway, so he - Mother had sort of taken to her bed a lot. She used to suffer from migraines. She suffered from everything. Allergies, migraines, everything. But obviously she really had very deep psychological problems. Anyway - she had been in bed a lot. I had hardly seen her for about a week. Hadn't really thought very much about it, you know, we had maids and all this. I remember coming home one day from school. And the maid said, "Your father wants you up in his study". I wasn't actually frightened of him, but I was very in awe of him. He was a very sort of overpowering, authoritarian type. And we never went to his study. It was sacred, you know. I mean he wasn't home very much, because he ran two practices and he was chief at the hospital. And for him to be home sort of 4 o'clock in the afternoon was really something. Anyway, I went into the office. And he could be very gentle at times. And he was in floods of tears. And he explained to me that I had come from Europe, and all this. And that my parents had survived the war and they wanted me back. And it was just - you know, it was - like it had absolutely nothing to do with me. And I said to him well, I didn't want to go, sort of thing. And he said they had tried to fight for me and everything. And that my parents had rights. And I remember sort of - my attitude was completely - I mean, you know, sort of - I remember VE Day, and everyone cheered and everything. But the ingrained attitudes that I had taken in, you know, that - They of course spoke very bitterly about the Nazis and everything. But their attitude towards foreigners was - you know, there was a contradiction there, you know. Sort of "yes, but as long as they're not near us", sort of thing. Anyway, and I didn't want to go back. Didn't want to have anything to do with it. And my attitude completely was - I mean I just - it was beyond comprehension what going to Europe meant or anything - was that well, I'll just go and tell them that I've got nothing to do with them and I'll come back. And I remember going on the plane. And I really thought - there was like a confusion in my head - I really could not take onboard that I wasn't an American, that I wasn't Joan Farell. But my sister was on the plane with me. And by this time of course I had been brainwashed completely to accept that my sister was a naughty, horrible, little girl. And with all due respect, she was a bit of a devil. There's no doubt about it. I mean she really was. Anyway, so she sat on the plane next to me. And I mean I was completely hostile to the whole idea of going anywhere. But just looked upon it as an adventure, that I'd go wherever I was going and tell them, "No thank you", you know, and get back. And I remember her trying to sort of tell me that my adopted mother was an old witch and this sort of thing. And of course I was completely resistant to it. But there was some confusion in my mind, because I knew that she had been my sister, you know what I mean. I mean I was only 7 years old, sort of thing. Anyway, I remember vividly. We got to the other side of - it was Croydon airport. This of course was before Heathrow. Oh, it was quite a long journey. Because in those days you didn't cross the Atlantic at one go. We stopped at Newfoundland, and an island. And of course the air hostesses and everything were all over me. Because they were bringing - it wasn't just us, it was the English children. And so there was all this trauma going. And they were well aware of it. All the children were having trouble, you know, going back. And there were a lot of tears and things. Actually, I think there were several children on the plane, I seem to remember. Anyway, I got to the other end, at Croydon. And it's a memory that'll be in my mind. These two peasants - sort of, you know, grabbed me. And I really - you know, I hated them with every ounce - you know. And my mother didn't speak one word of English. So here the thing was in reverse. And they were absolutely hysterical and - oh, you know. And I was absolutely repulsed by the whole thing. As far as I was concerned I'd never seen them

27 before in my life, didn't want anything to do - Anyway, they took us in a taxi. And we drove for what I thought was hours and hours. And it was probably was if it was from Croydon. It's interesting, because it's only recently that I realised it was from Croydon. And I knew memory was of having been in this taxi for hours. And I thought well, you know, in those days there wasn't that much traffic, so it couldn't have been from Heathrow. But I suppose from Croydon it still would have been - And we came to a street near Kings Cross. And I'll never forget it, because I mean I'd come from a really wealthy - you know - home. And we stopped at what I thought was a shop. And I couldn't understand. And we got out. And then he opened up the door. And he took us upstairs. And it was a filthy little passage. And my father kept on saying - this is my other father - "Oh, it's wonderful, it's lovely". And this of course was the rantings of a man that was completely demented and had to - you know -

Do you remember what street this is in Kings Cross?

It was Essex Road. Which is near the Angel. Round the Angel. It's funny, I passed it the other day and the place is still there. The house - it was called Clarence House. It was the name on the door. It was l33 Essex Road. It was on top of - I can't remember, it was some sort of store of some sort. I don't know. But it literally - the whole apartment was about the size of these two rooms. There was a kitchen. It was a sort of - the kitchen was like half this size. And it had a settee there and a dining table and whatsit. One sort of butler sink and one cold tap and that was it.

End of F4l8 Side B

F4l9 Side A

A sitting room, which had another put-you-up. And a dining table and chairs. And that was about it. And then you walked through into a bedroom that was about that size. There was a double bed and a wardrobe that was like a single wardrobe. And that was the whole apartment. And my parents slept in the bedroom. My sister and I slept in there with the put- you-up. And that was it. And sort of I'd come over with a suitcase full of clothes. And there just was nowhere to put anything. And there was like an outside balcony. And there was a - Oh, and my father was very proud, we had our own toilet. It was outside. But it was like in the balcony, but it wasn't in the staircase. So that was it. I mean it was just unbelievable. The poverty, the cold. My parents were complete - I mean although as I say, my foster mother was obviously mentally ill - it didn't show itself in - at that stage. I mean, you know, she was completely wrapped up with me. My parents just screamed and yelled. Nearly murdered each other at least twice a day. My stepsister - half sister, - of course he wasn't her father, but I mean he'd taken her over from when she was about a year old, and she didn't remember her father at all. But she hated him. I mean, you know, she was very disturbed. We'd been through a lot. She hated him. I hated the both of them. We hated each other. My parents seemed to hate each other. I mean - you know, it was just really - unbelievable. My father is physically very violent. And my mother was a complete doormat, never stood up - She and I didn't have one word to communicate in. Except she used to fling her arms round me. And I hated it. Hated any physical contact from them at all.

Had you forgotten your French completely by then?

Completely. I mean, you know, I'd forgotten my past. Not only had I forgotten it, but I didn't want to be a foreigner. You know. There was that terrible stigma ingrained. Right, now, they had -

Did your father sometimes hit you children?

Oh yes. I mean - I mean, you know - I mean, this was just a complete maniac household. It was a completely - there were these two human beings, if you could call them that, who had been through everything in the war. They were coming to terms with the fact that they - my mother was the sole survivor of her family. All her sisters and brothers, nieces and nephews, everyone had died. My father actually had a sister who had survived in - in - Russia. But I mean the - they had lost everything. They were penniless. My mother, before the war, had probably not even boiled water to make tea with. And here she was having to cope. With two children. I mean - she had completely blocked off. Two children who - I mean Lillian was - Lillian was about l3 when we went back. I mean this girl was in puberty. I didn't remember her. My sister remembered her. But, you know - Oh my God, it was absolute - you know -

Do you know what they were living off at that time?

Well, it's interesting. I don't know how, but he had managed - now I'm trying to remember - He - I think he had started working in some sweatshops. I mean he was an entrepreneur. He was starting up his own little factory at this time. And it was, you know, it was literally a room somewhere in Commercial Street. The girl I told you about that we'd gone to America with - one of her aunts - my family obviously knew them before the war. One of her aunts had come to Britain just before the war. And she and my father were setting up this factory

29 together. I mean - it was obviously undercapitalised. My father didn't know anything about it. And my mother used to go and help. And I mean it - it - you know - it - if it wasn't so tragic it would have been funny. Except that I suppose underneath it all was my father's absolute determination. Oh, the other thing of course, he drank and gambled. So it was literally sort of - he'd come home on Friday with a bit of money. Buy food on the blackmarket. I mean I was absolutely horrified, you know. It was just the culture. It was completely alien for me. He'd buy - they'd bring the chickens. And they'd be so proud of what they had, you know. And my mother couldn't cook for - I mean she really didn't know. So she'd stick the chicken - you know - it was really unbelievable. We'd go to the public baths. Come home. Have the meal that was absolutely awful. Oh yes, and on the way he'd get things out of the pawnshop. And of course by Monday it all went back in the pawnshop. They still seemed to have had a handful of - of jewellery and things. I honestly have never been able to get out of him how he managed to get stuff over. I even suspect that there was a little bit of dishonesty. You know, who knows. I mean, you know - we're talking about people who had to survive. Anyway. Also at that time - everyone had died, they'd been through all this. They had all the absolutely stereotype things of the survivors. And they - they completely didn't want anything to do with the religion. You know. But the - but - they reverted back to sort of being the Polish - you know - So there was all these whatsits. They sent my sister and me - they didn't want anything to do with non-Jews. They were terrified of the outsiders. Sent my sister and me to this ultra-orthodox Jewish School, the Evicta(ph). Which was the absolute pits. Really was. I mean I've met other people who think it was marvellous. But - you know, coming from a secular schooling - where sciences and everything. And where girls were equally meant to go on to university. To this school where all the girls were supposed to do was cook and whatnot. And no - I mean there's nothing about Kushrut that I don't know. I mean, you know, it was just indoctrinated into us. Then we'd come home and my parents would be cooking bacon. I mean, you know -

Were you very conscious of the fact that London was bombed?

Honestly, if they'd sent me to Mars, it couldn't - it was like - it was like living in, I suppose in Alice in Wonderland. Everything was poverty. You saw a lot of violence. I remember this, you know, when people talk about London being violent. You used to see people beating people up in the streets and things. I mean this was a country that was coming back from war. The soldiers were coming back. You saw prostitution everywhere. And you see violence all over the place. It was really quite - And - we used to go - we lived - I mean the Angel was not the best area. I mean now people speak about it as Cannonbury. And actually I used to go for walks and - and Cannonbury, it was literally round the corner, and it was very pretty, it was like a fairyland. And used to go to school in Stanford Hill. Stoke Newington. Used to go there on buses and the old trams. And I remember it being extremely cold. And apparently it was. It was one of the coldest winters ever. And we used to come home to this terrible flat. My parents would be at the factory from 7 in the morning till 7 at night. The only heating - we didn't have electricity, we had gas. And I mean God knows how we didn't blow ourselves up. And we used to have to light the fire. My sister and I used to just throw paraffin over it. How we never - I mean, you know, it was just like - And I became a guttersnipe. I mean went to this ultra-orthodox school, with all these mad Chassidim, and - telling us what we should do and shouldn't do. And coming home to the bacon being eaten. My parents didn't go to synagogue or anything. Right. So I was here for two years.

Had your adoptive parents tried to get in touch with you?

Oh yes, they wrote to me. Sent us things and all this sort of thing. Anyway, what happened was - yes, I mean they had all the time tried to get my own parents to allow me to be adopted. And of course they wouldn't. And my mother would say things about, you know, people would - And all I wanted to do was go back to America. I mean I didn't want to stay here with these - Anyway, in l949, June, my foster parents - I mean my parents were working in this grotty little factory all hours of the day and night. And I mean I used to come home and play in the streets. I mean I can tell you every street game. And I mean we used to - all the guttersnipe - Now it's interesting, because my sister started going to Hoxford and St George's Youth Club. And used to drag me along sometimes. And God, were we patronised there. You know, I mean - I mean people talk about these organisations, you know, in hushed tones. And the gaffer and all this. But you see I had been brought up in a very wealthy home and had been treated - you know, on a different - And therefore I was very aware of this, you know, sort of - Anyway, so - I remember the one thing about going to Hoxford and St George's Club was that you could have a hot bath there. And it was marvellous. Instead of this awful public baths, and coming out into the cold. And for a penny you sort of got a baked potato and all that sort of thing. But I mean it was just complete - I mean, as I said, I had my own bathroom en-suite. You know. It was really sort of the opposite. Anyway, l949, my foster parents - got my parents to agree for me to go back there for the summer. And I went over. And I mean, you know, this was my ideal, this was what I'd looked forward to. And actually I've got a photo that was taken of me going back with a dolly from my foster - Anyway, we got back. And they picked me up at New York. And I remember there was quite a furore, all the press and everything, you know. "This orphan coming back to America, to her home", you know, all that crap. And I was interviewed on television. And with my foster mother sitting there saying - you know. And I was saying how happy I was to be back home in America. And how wonderful America was, you know. And I believed it. I mean to me it was - it was just fairyland. I mean, you know, after all this. And I adored my foster parents. Anyway, I remember, we stayed at the Alagonquin, which was, you know, a very posh hotel. Right. And I remember we sat down at the table, at the dinner table, in the dining room, and I been fussed over. And the first thing she did, of course, was throw out all my old clothes and take me shopping, you know, for the new clothes. Sitting at the dinner table, and all of a sudden her face turned black. And she said to me, "Don't eat like that", she said. "Don't show me up". And I didn't know what she was talking about. And of course what had happened was I'd picked up the English way of eating. That you hold the knife and fork - and, you know, and she was absolutely disgusted by this. Because this showed I was a foreigner, you know, and all this. And of course I felt terribly ashamed that I should be so - you know. Anyway, we went up to Maine. We used to go to Maine. I mean it was real a real preppy family. Everyone else used to go down to Florida. We used to go to Maine. To what was laughingly called 'a cat'. But it was an island that had all these sort of bungalows. I mean it was very exclusive. Because he being a doctor, it didn't have a telephone in, you know, so we used to spend the summer up there. And it was - really looking back, it was like a debriefing. You know. I was sort of made to speak American and all this. Anyway, in the autumn when we went back - and my parents agreed to let me stay - and I went back to school. And of course by this time my foster sister was growing up. She'd been there for two years without me. So there was a bit of antagonism. And my foster mother had switched her love to her. Quite - you know - Now, I was 9.

This is Davida?

Davida. Yes. Now of course I was 9. And - But I sort of idolised them and wanted to sort of be good enough for them. So - so I went back to school. And of course you see my education had been completely splintered. And yet no one seemed to appreciate it. Oh yes, when here, in the ultra-orthodox school I got my hand caned for doing things - that of course in America you're supposed to ask questions, you know. So whenever the teacher would say something, up would go my hand, and a question. And in an orthodox school little girls don't - So then we go back to America. Of course there the school thought I was a complete, you know, - But it's a very funny thing. Because you know the spelling in England of some words is very different. And what is interesting is no one seemed to understand this. And there I started getting very low marks, you know. And, you know, people - adults sort of say, "Oh yes, but - you know - the different words". But to a child all she knows is that she's told that her words are wrong. She doesn't realise that there's only certain words or something. And to this day I can't spell. I mean, you know, my mind has just completely given up on spelling. So of course I started bringing home very bad marks. Report cards and things like that. Which of course didn't please my foster mother. And I mean it - she started being quite cruel to me and everything. But - locking me in the cellar for being naughty, you know, getting a 'C' and all that. But of course to me this was just - my self esteem - all I wanted to do was to be good enough to - you know - Anyway, I was there for about two years. When my parents asked to have me back. And I mean this see-saw just went on. I crossed the Atlantic about ten times. Just went on. And my relationship - between my foster mother started to break down quite dramatically. And yet I idolised her. Anyway, it all came to a head when I was about l5. When - By that time my education was completely shot. And - you know, I was supposed to go into college and everything. And they were just completely - they used to tell me how ashamed they were of me and everything. And of course my self esteem - But at the same time I really didn't want to have anything to do with my own parents. Now my own sister had emigrated to Canada very early on. She was l6. I mean you weren't supposed to go until you were l8. But she, you know, just had to get away. And I remember at l5 I was supposed to be confirmed in the reform over there. And my foster mother was extremely strict with me. And I wasn't allowed to do this. And the relationship broke down. And I remember finally one day I wrote to my father and asked if I could come back here. So he brought me back here. And I was l5. And my foster parents - I mean they used to come over. He was - he was big on the international medical scene. And he used to come over to give lectures. So they'd come over. And I'd go back with them. And I mean towards the end it was literally three months here, six months there, you know, coming back. And I really didn't know where I was.

Did the two sets of parents ever meet. Or were they civil to each other?

Hated each other. Well, it was like cold warfare. I mean my foster parents used to come to Britain and stay in Brown's Hotel. And my parents still lived in this absolutely impoverished - And my foster mother used to plant stories in my head that my father was a crook. And I believed them, I mean, you know - You know, everything - You know, sort of, "How could he?" - you know - "He's done this and he's done that", you know. And I hated my parents, absolutely hated them. But my feelings for my foster parents - the relationship had definitely broken down. I was terribly fond of my foster father, who adored me. It was quite interesting. But, you know, all his energies went into his medicine. And of course he obviously couldn't cope with this emotional woman, so he just cut off from it, you know. So - finally I came here in l955. Oh, that's right. And when I was l6 - or the day I was l6 - I ran away from home. And I went and lived in a hostel. It was some sort of hostel. That's right, I

32 was working of course, I was working. And somebody at work told me about - like they had working girl's hostels sort of thing.

What were you working at at that time?

I was working in a shop. My father sent me to Pitmans College. I mean my whole dream had been to go to university and go on to medicine. I mean that's what I was being groomed for in America. And my father sent me to Pitmans College to learn shorthand and typing. And I couldn't even bloody spell. I mean - you know. But that was his dream for me. I mean it was just a complete madhouse. I was working in a shop. I was - became completely independent. I was very shy. You know, very shy, very inward looking. Oh, that's right, at Pitmans College I'd made friends with two girls. And I think it was through them, one of them sort of, you know, told me of this. So I went - and I was l6. So legally I was - I was entitled to. And my parents went mad, you know. And I left home. They literally didn't know where I was. I just couldn't stand it any more. They were so claustrophobic and, you know, sort of my letters, they used to steam open. I just - you know - it was really awful. I - I hated them. Absolutely hated them. So I went and lived in this hostel that was somewhere round the back of Kings Cross. I don't know where. And I mean it was literally sort of you had to be in at 7. And - and - you know - the girls went out to work and all that. And you came home at 7. And you were only allowed out - And we had to go to church on Sundays I remember.

What was the food like there?

Awful. I mean, you know, and it was absolutely the pits. And we lived in dormitories. And yet I preferred it to being at home. I just, you know, couldn't stand it. And of course my self esteem - because by this time, you know, my foster parents I didn't get on with, you know. Just - thought it was my fault. Anyway, the warden, or whatever she was called - it somehow came out that I was Jewish. Because of course I didn't particularly go out - I just didn't want to - you know, my attitude was everything that was wrong with my life was being Jewish and I really didn't want to - And really my aim was to save up and go and live in Canada with my sister. That's all I wanted to do. I hated England. As you say, the poverty and the bombing. And of course we were at the lower end of the scale. Anyway, the warden - Ah yeh, now it's coming back to me. She was probably a magistrate. Because in those days everyone like that was a magistrate. She realised I was Jewish. And she knew Hannah Feldman. Who was the warden of another organisation, West Central Club. And Hannah was also involved somehow with the Jewish Welfare Board. And she obviously discussed her with me. And I have to give it to Hannah, she really obviously understood. Because - I mean, you know, we did - Oh, I must tell that story. Because it's something - I think really puts over the picture. Sort of some time, about l955, my foster father was over here for one of his dos. And I think was Pessach. He went to the West Central Synagogue. Actually we all went. You know, when they were here I used to go. And Rabbi Reinhardt, who was very involved with - He invited us to their home. Now of course - we went as a family. And the Rabbi invited us to his home as a family. And it's quite interesting, because of course he didn't realise that I wasn't the Farell's child. I was treated with absolute - you know - as one would -

Was your surname Farell at this time?

Farell. Well -

Or had you basically kept that right the way through?

Well no, when I was in England I was Zimetbaum. But when I was in America I was Farell. But I mean when I was with my foster parents I just looked upon myself as - I kept Joan. I never reverted back. I kept Joan. And so, you know, we went to the home and we were treated beautifully. Anyway, my foster father - because Reinhardt? was very involved with refugees and whatnot. And my foster father obviously confided the situation to Rabbi Reinhardt. And my father said to me that Reinhardt had told me I should go along. I suppose it was the youth club or something. I really can't remember the circumstances. At West Central, you know, and that I'd meet people there and all that. And I remember going along there. And I bumped into Reinhardt? And having been brought up in a family, you know, where your father is a professor, you don't hold other people in awe. I mean, you know, the fact that he was the Rabbi and whatnot, didn't mean anything, you know. And I'd been in his home. And he had treated me as one does to a daughter. And I was l5, you know, as a teenager. And I bumped into Rabbi Reinhardt? and he was standing with somebody. And I went up to him - because I was very American, and you know how Americans - and I said, "Oh hello, Rabbi". I said, "Do you remember me? I'm Doctor Farell's daughter". And he said, "Oh yes", he said. More or less he said, "Now run along". And in my hearing he turned round to this other man and he said, "This is the most fascinating case. I have to tell you all about it". And it really hit me then, you know, just how people's attitudes are different to you when you're a proper human being and when - And I mean this is a man who - I'm sure he was a very wonderful man, who's been very highly thought of. But this was the attitude towards the refugees, you know. They really are sub-human. They're not people really that you spend much time with, you know. You do good to them, but - you know. And that had a big effect on me. It really did. It - it - just sort of being treated by someone who had treated me so well, you know, just a few weeks ago. And I mean of course the way I reacted was that I really wanted to hide over any trace of being a refugee, of being a foreigner. That was our reaction. And this is something that so many of us are left with to this day, you know. Because I have interviewed many of the people from the children's transports. And they don't articulate it. But this is something I feel very strongly about. It was a stigma that we were treated with that has made this need. Because they all speak upon their families as being professors and - you know - A lot of that stems from the fact that we were treated so badly. Anyway, so, to get back. So - this woman said to me - the warden of the hostel - said to me that really, you know, I didn't really belong here, you know, sort of thing. And that she knew a colleague who - there was a Jewish hostel opened up in the East End. And I mean the minute I heard 'Jewish' I just - you know. But she said to me it was very nice, it was very modern. You know. Anyway, I agreed to meet Hannah Feldman(ph). And I didn't realise, you know, who she was or anything. And I met her and she was a very nice lady. She was a German Jewess, Hannah, I believe. Actually I think she's still alive. And she was very, very nice. And she didn't push. And she just said to me - you know - like, "Go along". And she didn't even say "I'll take you", or anything. She gave me that freedom, that was very good. Anyway, I went along. It was the Stepney Jewish Settlement. Phyllis Gerson. They had just built this brand new hostel. And I mean I just went really out of politeness to Hannah Feldman(ph), because she had been so nice to me. She was like the first person to be nice to me. So I didn't want to be rude to her. And I went along. And there was no way I was going to go - have anything to do with a Jewish organisation. Anyway, I went there. And Phyllis Gerson, who was the head of the organisation, who - she's ill in hospital. I just went to see her. And she was also another one of these - German Jewesses. Actually her parents were. But she - she's a fascinating character. And - she just sort of took me

34 along. Showed me the room. And it had central heating. And it was individual rooms and everything. And so I went to live there. And that was really the major turning point in my life. Because I was still working in the shop. And then what happened is slowly I started helping out at the youth club. And I began to talk to Phyllis. And it's interesting, because - looking back - you know, I felt she'd made no value judgements and everything. Basically, you know, it's funny I was talking about that. And I think the woman was so naive that really she didn't understand, but she didn't - you know - although she was head of this organisation - you know - she'd come from a very sheltered background. But she made no value judgements. And she was the first person in the whole of my life - you see the whole of my life I'd either heard how lucky I was - and how grateful I had to be for being in America. Or how grateful and how lucky I was that my parents had survived the war, you know. And no one had ever said, you know, maybe I was this human being who had feelings. That maybe all this had affected me. Because to the best of my knowledge, teachers, anyone, the social workers, - probably the only person that had felt for me was the air hostess. Who I remember being very emotional, because she obviously had been involved in taking all these children back. But no one seemed to accept that the children had been traumatised. You know, my poor parents who had been through all this. My wonderful adopted parents who had taken me in, you know. But nobody seemed to feel that maybe me as a child might have been traumatised by this. Anyway, my parents - my two sets of parents were virtually fighting, physically fighting over me. And Phyllis Gerson, I said to her, "I do not want to have anything to do with my parents". And she said to them, "You cannot get in touch". And apparently they used to come and talk to her. And she'd tell them - but she wouldn't let them come to me. Which, you know, was quite an amazing thing for her to have done. But she just realised, you know. Anyway, I got drawn into the work and everything. And I started working in the office. And of course my self esteem was very low, because I was supposed to have gone onto university and everything. Anyway, what happened was, Phyllis got me onto a course in Israel. It was Mahon (INAUDIBLE). Which was a Zionist thing. And I was the first person from AJY, the non-Zionist, to go. And really basically I mean I didn't want to go to Israel. I didn't want to do youth whatsit. But, as Phyllis said to me, "It's neutral territory. You'll get away from both sets of parents". And I went there. And I had the most wonderful year. It really was. And I really began to be able to come to terms with myself as a Jew. Part of the Mahon of course was seeing that there were so many different people. And I mean I wasn't a Zionist, because I sort of - had been brought up in the American Reform, where you're a religion and not a race and all this sort of thing. But of course I very much fell in love with Israel. And actually I had intended to go back. It was more a security in myself. It was the first year of my life completely independent, very much at peace, very secure, and I was very happy. Before I had gone to Israel actually - by that time I was very involved in youth club work. I was l7. God, was I as young as that? Yes. And I had - I used to help - I used to work at Stepney. Well, by that time I was working there. And I used to run the youth club at night. And I got into the AJY. You know, the Association for Jewish Youth. And I got very friendly with another youth worker, Beatrice Lissie? Who was older. She was a Swiss Jewess. And she used to run the girl's club at Cambridge and Hackney. It's funny looking back, but sort of on my evening off from Stepney I used to go there and run something for her, you know. And I met my future husband there, Martin, who was much older. And he used to help out at the thing. Anyway, when I was in Israel that year he wrote to me throughout the year, and we wrote. And I came back. And I was l8 in l958. And - it was stipulated when you did the Mahon you had to do two years in England before you could go back. Anyway, I came back and I was youth club leader at Stepney Jewish. And we got engaged. And in l959 we got married. At the end of l959. And it was so funny, because I had both sets of parents here for the wedding. My foster parents stayed at Brown's Hotel.

My father asked them whether they'd lend some money to pay for the wedding. They refused to. My mother-in-law was absolutely aghast that her son, who was a graduate and, you know, the pride of the family, was marrying this refugee. My wedding was at the Stepney Settlement. My foster mother wanted me to leave from Brown's Hotel. I mean, you know, it was just absolute - you know.

End of F4l9 Side A

F420 Side A

... absolutely typical of what we used to call the lockensoup(ph) Jew. In that they belonged to an orthodox synagogue. Well, actually I don't even know that they - well, they did, they belonged to some - it's not even a united one, it's one of the ones in the East End that many of them keep just for their burial rites. Of course they went to synagogue on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. But virtually none other than that. But of course kosher being - you know, the British Jews, kosher is terribly important to. And of course you had to get married in an orthodox synagogue. Now Martin himself is virtually areligious. And was very rebellious against this sort of background. They lived in Clapton. You know, they thought they'd gone up in the world. And - but for his parents of course - and by this time my parents - Oh yes, of course, because his parents were the sort of nominal orthdox - It's quite funny inthat my parents had this deferential attitude and, you know, because we were marrying and everything - I mean my mother pretended she kept kosher. And of course when my - my in- laws, when they came round, kept kosher. And of course my parents still lived in this pathetic flat. But it was about this time of course that my father was getting compensation. And it was coming through, but they hadn't yet got it. And he wanted us to wait until he could give us a big wedding. And I really was against that. I really felt that to spend a lot of money on a wedding when, you know, you were virtually impoverished, was absolutely disgusting. Of course my mother-in-law couldn't understand this, getting married in the - Although they didn't have two ha'pennies to rub together. But sort of, you know - her brother-in-law, when their daughter got married, you know, all that thing. They used to spend so much money on weddings in those days that they really didn't have. I don't know where people got it from.

Had your father been running a garment factory or something?

Now what happened was - he had been running that garment - and actually he could have been a millionnaire, but his nerves were such that - and he had fallen out with the friend. The factory had - I don't know whether it had gone bankrupt or whatnot, but he, you know, sort of - I'm trying to think when - It would have been about the mid-50's that would have gone bust. I mean he never really - he would be the type that had a lot of money one day and none the next day. He also dabbled in jewellery, buying and selling. He had started making contact again with friends. And some of them - What he was doing he was managing quite a posh restaurant for a friend. But my father gambled. I mean, you know, whatever he had he still gambled at that stage. Terrible. I mean he lost a fortune all the time. And his nerves were terrible, you know. Anyway, he knew he was getting compensation from Germany at that time. I can't remember if it was going to be something like #3,000. Which in those days was quite a sum. But he also got a pension, which is a big thing. But the money hadn't come through. Anyway - you know I - At that time my relationship with him was still extremely bad. But I sort of had this in me that I knew that they were my parents and they'd been through a lot and, you know - Sort of - so we had the wedding. Anyway. And I carried on working at Stepney. We had a flat in Archway. And sort of saw my parents about once every two weeks. My foster mother couldn't accept the fact that I was married. And, you know, she was very possessive. She wanted me to go and live in America.

What was Martin doing at this time?

Martin. He worked at - oh crumbs - British Standards Institute. He worked there. He was a - what they called the (INAUDIBLE) offices. It was sort of quasi civil servant. And in the

37 evenings it was - I mean, you know - we didn't have any money behind us at all. And he worked two nights a week at Cambridge and Hackney. He was the treasurer. I worked at Stepney. I mean we sort of saved everything.

Cambridge and Hackney Youth Club?

Youth Club, yes. Yes. So - we didn't see that much of each other. We were decorating and whatnot. So that went on for about a year. And then I got pregnant with Shelley. And I worked at Stepney Jewish school - No, hold on. No. I left the club because of course we were seeing so little of each other. And I worked at Stepney Jewish School as a teacher. I had a youth leader's qualification, so - you know. And then I got pregnant with Shelley. And I had Shelley. That was my first baby. We bought a house in Muswell Hill. A little - a smallish house - well, it wasn't small actually, it was quite a nice house. But we did it up. Martin by this time, he was a management consultant. He was away quite a lot. And I kept - I kept all my contacts with Stepney. I used to do care committee work. And got involved in counselling and youth advisory. Which was part of the education welfare system. Which was a precursor to - no, it was the precursor to the education welfare. And then I had my second child. Yes, I remember. I was doing the Young People's Advisory, which was like a part time - two afternoon, working in Hackney with West Indian youngsters. And it was very interesting, because it was at this stage that they were all - they were bringing over their young from the West Indies, you know. And there was all this tension. And I understood exactly the problems, you know, with the kids and that. I mean you could foresee the hostility. Because they'd been left behind by their parents. And the parents had come here. And then they were brought over at adolescence. And then I got a job - What happened was, my previous youth officer when I was at Stepney, he had been seconded on to a special project. So he was like doing fifty percent. And I took over the other fifty percent. So I became the youth officer for Tower Hamlets. And then actually I had a lot of gynaecological problems. I had miscarriages and things. And I had a hysterectomy very young. I was very ill actually. Had a hysterectomy and I was 28. And I went back to work and I just wasn't getting over it. And, you know, I was told I really had to take - And I thought right, now's the time, I've got to go back. And I went back and did my 'A' levels. And then I went to university. I went to London School of Economics and did social sciences. Then I went back into youth service. And I was working as a youth officer actually for Harringay. And then I decided I really couldn't stand it. It just sort of - the petty bureaucracy and the sort of - And I gave it up. And Martin had his own business and, you know, things were moderately - you know. And I decided that, you know, rather than go out to work to keep a big house and everything, I wanted to do what I wanted to do. And that's when I started researching my background. And started writing. And I've been writing now, and I now write for television and various other things.

Can we go back for a moment to your time in Israel. That would have been in the Fifties? l957, '58.

And how did you find Israel at that time. Did you feel any affinity towards the Jews?

It was absolutely marvellous. It was - it was at a young, idealist stage. We spent six months at the centre. But it - really at that time it was basically a Zionist organisation, it was a government thing. And the whole idea was really to indoctrinate workers from abroad into it. I was the only one from a non-Zionist organisation. So we had to spend a lot of - sort of

38 weekends we used to go to the kibbutz. And I used to go with - sort of I'd go with everyone. One week I'd go with the extreme religious group to their kibbutz. Another week I'd go sort of with the extreme left wing to their kibbutz. I also insisted on doing non-political/Zionist work. And I actually worked in the 'Y' in Jerusalem with Arab children. I also worked at a centre. Because the Yemenis were coming over at that time. I worked at a centre - in - the south, with Yemeni children. I travelled all over the place. We were very sort of politically interested. I mean I literally, I went into Bedouin tents and spoke to them and whatnot. I loved Israel. And I saw all sides. I mean there was one kibbutz I worked on that we were working in the fields and sort of it - it was all barbed wired and the fields were out. And you'd come out in the morning and the whole thing would be sabbotaged. But I had in me a lot of - understanding for the Arabs. What they were going - We were very questioning. We questioned a lot of the political things that were going on. And yet underneath it all I mean I was completely taken by the idealism. Because at that time we really did believe that we were going to end up with a country with love and happiness and peace and all that thing. We went and met a lot of the Arab mayors who were pro-Israel. And of course we believed - well, we didn't take in all the propaganda - but, you know, I mean we went into the history of it. And we openly saw that the Arabs had been kicked out in some parts. I mean we were completely aware of the fact that all the Yemeni Jews were coming in and everything, you know. But it was a wonderful idealistic period. There wasn't the - the antagonism there is now. I mean obviously in the northern part it was very dangerous. And I remember we hitch-hiked up there, being warned not to. I mean I've got some beautiful stories of things that happened. I mean how I'm still alive, Christ knows what. I mean a young girl hitch- hiking up in the Arab parts. But - you know, it was a sort of naive - idealism at that time.

Did either you or Martin ever consider emigrating?

I wanted to, Martin didn't. I very much wanted to go back. And Martin - Martin, I think, you know, he was sort of the first son to go to university. And actually he won a scholarship to City of London. Which was not unusual in those days. And sort of was opened up to culture and - and things.

Did he also go on to London University?

Yes, funnily enough he went to LSE. But that was complete - you know - Yes. And he was sort of at the rebelling against his parents' background stage. Not wanting to be sort of - you know. And so he really had no interest in Zionism at all. And we settled back. We have been back several times. And also my father - we have picked up relatives. The cousin that my father hid with in - in - Belgium. One of the sons is my contemporary and we've got very close. And he has actually married another cousin who was the granddaughter of - my father's cousin that was the Zionist that emigrated to Palestine. So I've been to Israel on several occasions. With increasing dismay of - sort of what's happened there. As much from - the monetary - you know - the commercial angle, as from the humanitarian angle. I mean when I first went there there was just nothing there. I mean we went down to Elat and slept on the beaches. And now you go and it's what I call 'air conditioning, kosher fillet steak'. And it's that as much that has saddened me as much as the political - I - I feel very strongly about the extremism and the reactionary. I find it of no - I find it exactly on par with Naziism. I - I - you know - I have absolutely - I find it all repugnant. I mean I understand how it's happened. I understand the - the history of it. I find it extremely repugnant. I just find it of no - I find Fascism in Jews of no great - And the fact that they can use what happened to me as their justification - makes me very angry.

When you were in Israel did you meet people - obviously your peers - of your age group. Did you ever discuss what had happened to them during the war. Did it make you feel rather more normalised somehow?

I think that year in Israel was when I first came to terms with myself. No, I - did not meet anyone who was a refugee. What I met was Jews from - young Jews from all over the world, of different Zionist political outlook. Of different cultural outlook. And I think that's what struck me. Being at the Mahon we had people from all over the world. And it was funny, you could walk in a room and know who was French, who was South American and who was British. It was so funny, because the Anglo Saxons stuck together like - You know, sort of the New Zealanders. You know, it was really funny. And this did give me an outlook to how your cultural - you know - But my coming to terms with being a refugee is a very, very recent thing. I just never self-identified. Part of that of course was - it was only looked at if survivors were actually camp survivors, not people who hadn't. And therefore it wasn't just my own need not to identify, it was a really sort of - those people had suffered more than we had. And yet - and I don't deny that. But really looking back what we had gone through was also extremely traumatic. And has never been - It's like you said to me, they assumed I was from the kindertransport. It's never really been understood what - you know, it was really - the people came out of the camps, who unquestionably had been to hell and back. There was great sympathy for them. Although they weren't welcomed with open arms. But it's only very recently - and as I said, when I first - oh, it was really - that's right, when my adopted father died and I went over there. And the girl who had been this girl who I told you about, who had been on the ship. She came to see me, because she'd read his obituary. And it was when she started talking about it that I realised the hurt that was still inside of her. And she had never - because she'd never returned to Europe. And her father had survived. Her mother had died. Her father had survived, come to England. And hadn't brought her over. And had said oh, he'll bring her over when he's established. And he had died. And she was very bitter. And I was talking to her. And she just had no comprehension of the fact that he was probably completely impoverished and ashamed. And I realised that there was a whole generation of - of us. Probably 200 kids. And when I came back to England and I started wanting to research it. And I really just didn't - I had no funding. I wrote to several organisation. It's quite interesting. I wrote to the Jewish Chronicle. They gave me absolutely no publicity. They didn't want to know. But I did some press releases. And I was on Pebble Mill at One. The non-Jewish - it's interesting, the Jewish just don't want to know. But it was the non-Jewish, Pebble Mill at One and the Guardian gave me a big writeup. And I was on the Gloria Hunniford show and whatnot, talking about my background and the fact I was trying - And what happened was, I started getting contacted by loads of people. And some of them were the children that were on the kindertransport. Some of them were the English children, you know, who had gone over. One or two others. One was a child who had come over after the war, had been a baby and who had been adopted. I mean there were about 30 of them that I interviewed and whatnot. And there were all these people with all this hurt inside of them, who had never had an opportunity. I mean in the last few years suddenly - and I mean I have to laugh, because I wrote to - what's his name, from the Daily Mirror - Captain Bob. And no one would give me any backing, any whatsit to do this research. Then all of a sudden about 5 years ago, everyone became a born again Jew. Everybody became interested in it. And - you know, a lot of people started doing research and things. And there was this big survival conference, which really quite - turned me up at how they were patronising us all over again. But I'm glad to see that a survivors group has started, run by survivors. Because, you know, I mean I just find this whole attitude that - I

40 mean yes, some of them are very disturbed, there's no question about it. But, you know, there's enough of us who - who are quite capable of running our own lives, that we don't need to be patronised any more. And I feel very strongly about this.

Have your parents identified with these survivors as a group?

No, it's quite interesting. What they have done is over the years they've remade contact with the family, which is - you know - distant cousins really. They have definitely the Jewish world again. They - they - it's a synagogue in the West End they go to. It's called the Great Western or something. It's not one of the united, but it's sort of - it's an independent, but it - you know - I mean they still don't keep a kosher home and everything, but - you know, they - they - have reverted to being very Jewish and having Jewish friends and that. Except of course now they're very old. My mother belonged to the Women's Guild or whatever at the synagogue. Oh yes, that was the big thing. For my father the turning point in his life was when he got the compensation from Germany. It wasn't the money. Because he's made and lost fortunes. It was the fact that someone was saying, "It's not your fault. It was our fault". And it was that. And they got this nice - well what they think is lovely - flat in the West End. And -

They got that with the compensation money?

He didn't buy it. But they rented it. And he did it up and - And - because when they lived in the flat in Islington, I mean part of that was why he didn't get in touch with his family. And it's interesting, because I've spoken to the cousins and they just - they said - because he'd go over all flashy. And, you know, they just - you know, he probably stuck everything in the pawn office, to go over for a weekend, to be a bigshot. And I remember, I mean he used to do this. He didn't have two ha'pennies to rub together, but maybe we'd go out to a restaurant or something. And, you know, there'd be a queue at Blooms or something. Because it was still rationing and stuff. And I remember, he'd go up to the waiter and pass money. I mean it was very much sort of how he had survived the war was how he carried on. It's really only in the last l0 years that I've got any relationship with my parents. And - yes. So really that's - If you've got any questions.

Could you give a little more detail about the work that you were doing at the Mahon?

Well, it was a training course. And basically you spent six months at the Mahon. And six months practical work. And it's interesting, because they broke it up in - what they would do is one group would be on the Mahon. While the other group was on the practical. And it was like northern and southern hemisphere. And somehow I got in with the southern hemisphere, which was quite interesting. And there were a lot of South Americans there. And at the Mahon - of course a lot of it was very basic. Because we were supposed to be training to be youth workers. Right. And so a lot of it was basic things like Zionist songs and dancing. And Hebrew. We learnt Hebrew of course. A lot of it was sort of political history and that sort of thing. Integrating us or indoctrinating us, whichever way you want to look at it, into Israel. The background. So I learnt all about the history of Israel. And a lot of work was going on. We questioned a lot, because amongst the groups a lot of them were very left wing. So we were very questioning about, you know, what had happened. Our lectures were very open. I mean we knew all about the massacres of the Arab villages and how they were pushed out. But they would say, you know, - and the balance was that the Yemenites were coming over. All the ones from the Arab - and we really saw how they were being

41 rehoused. We also saw how little understanding there was of the change of culture. And the terrible prejudice within - between the Ashkenasi Jews - So it was a wonderful questioning period. And yet a great security. In spite of all the differences there was a terrific - What is interesting, it is also where I completely lost my religion. Because with all this going backwards and forwards I had a very childlike sentimentality. There was the complete whatsit between this ultra orthodox fanatical school I went to and the calm sort of sophisticated reform. I felt I was very much reform. I believed that, you know - that we were religion and not a race. Which is very interesting considering my background. But in Israel, as I said, I used to go with the different groups. And we'd go to the very left wing kibbutz. That even Passover they didn't celebrate anything at that time or anything. Well, what they always did, they always celebrated the festivals. Because of course they would say, "We are celebrating the land, and all this sort of thing, but no religion", you know. And then I went to some of the very orthodox ones, and I don't remember the name of the kibbutz, but it was a kibbutz somewhere in the Negef, that was a very orthodox kibbutz. And it actually had a Yeshiva on it. But what was amazing, is in the daytime it was orthodox, and yet the people - I'm trying to remember whether it was an American one - it probably was. The people wore very ordinary clothes. There was no sheitels or anything like that. And the women wore shorts and things. Because they justified it that they were working in the fields. And in those days they worked in the fields. Because they didn't have Arab - But I remember, it was so religious that we used to go there on Friday of course, before - And we used to do duties. And one of my duties was we had to tear the paper in the toilet, because you weren't allowed to tear paper on the Sabbath. And there was this complete incongruity that you'd go there and they'd all be walking round in shorts and whatsit, very attractive young - And then you'd be doing this. And I remember one Sabbath we were sitting on the grass talking. And I was absent mindedly pulling the grass up. And one of them said, very politely, "Don't do that, you're cutting the grass on the Sabbath", you see, you know. And I mean it was just - it really was quite amazing. But it was - I believe it was Simchat Torah. And it was this lovely festival. And we had the lovely meal. And the men went into the Shivah. And we were told - there was like a viewing tower upstairs and we were allowed to go and look. And the women went and looked. And it was most - I think in history, when tradition has it that if you don't blink your eyes you'll see the face of God looking down. And they obviously believed it, I mean, you know. And I believed it, you know. And I went up on this roof looking down, and it was really - it was - it was - it was - I - the opposite of seeing the light. I looked down and there were all these young men, who I had seen in the fields - as normal sort of young Kibbutzniks, you know, modern and everything. They had donned the attitudes - I mean they weren't Chassidim, but they were discussing the Talmud, and they had taken on the mannerisms and the - And it was like a revelation for me, that I'm watching something that could be, you know, out of - And it was like - you know - I - I - I really didn't believe in God any more. It - not in a negative sense. But I really felt- you know, sort of - it is irrelevant whether there is a super power, whether it's nature or whatnot. But that sort of this is in the context of a historical need. An emotional need. And I didn't need it anymore. And I suppose in a way that was - a self assurance of myself that I no longer had to put myself in the hands of an Almighty, but took over my own life.

But it's interesting then that it wasn't the Holocaust as such then that had .....?

No, not at all. Not at all. No.

Did you give your children a Jewish upbringing despite that?

No. No. It's quite interesting. I think - basically I suppose stemming from my husband. But also the need in me. It was interesting. I had this great affinity with Israel. And loved it. But not with the Jewish religion. And my husband very much - I think my husband - was going through the phase where he really is very anti-tradition. I've got much more of the sentimentality in me. Now what would happen is my parents would have Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. And of course they would insist we'd go there. And we'd go there. We have never belonged to a synagogue. I have yearnings to join the reform. Which I'm always going to do. And it's not really from a religious thing. I do enjoy the culture and the traditions. I mean - we do run a Seder. Although it's very much a sort of areligious Seder sort of thing. But we run a Seder. My oldest daughter has got much - she's much more sentimental and - I mean we don't keep anything, but she is much more inclined to it. My youngest daughter really has absolutely no interest in it whatsoever. I think I also in the last few years, I suppose, am coming to terms with it all. I'm more interested in it. You know, and have more - and perhaps - not a regret. But I feel well, perhaps I was wrong not to pass that on to my children. But in the state of my young adulthood I think I was so trying to find out who I was and what I was, that I - I really, as I said, really was - was distancing myself. The Israel year was sort of a - it was - because also sort of being a Zionist - not that I - probably was a Zionist as such. But I really felt a need for Israel and - and thing - Although I don't see that every Jew has to go back to it. And neither do I see that every Jew has a right to kicking everyone else out of it. But - yeh - so -

You've had three children?

Two.

So it is one out of the two that shows some affiliation to Judaism?

Yes. Whereas my other one is really - She's aware she's Jewish. And - you know - But - you know, no great - she's no great connections. She doesn't attend anything and whatnot.

Can you fill us in on what the children have gone on to do?

Shelley - my oldest one actually - I had a very bad delivery with her and she was a breech. And she suffered some mild brain damage which has affected her in that she's very severely dyslexic. And it's a pity, because she is a very intelligent child. And she wanted to go to university. But of course had no ability to do so. And she just does sort of administrative work. She's not very happy in it. She hankers after something more. But - you know. She has her own apartment now. Quite near here. Now Debbie left school with 'A' levels. Didn't want to go any further. But then - you see I went the opposite of both my parents and foster parents, who had pushed me. I sort of went the opposite direction. Really didn't push them at all. Debbie went on and did a film degree later on. And she's now 25. She hasn't really utilised that at all. She's very much my husband's personality in that she's not pushy and she - she's very much into music actually. She plays saxophone and plays guitar. And she plays with a pop group.

End of F420 Side A

F420 Side B

....When I started researching all this and uncovered all this story. And it is a fascinating story. I mean I'm distanced enough. I do see it almost as happening to someone else. And I've uncovered all this research. And I started trying to get it published. And really what was happening is I was getting letters back saying, "It's a fascinating story. And if you were famous, you know, it would be - But, you know, who is going to read it otherwise". So I thought right, you know, I'm going to get famous. Because I feel it is a story. Not just a technical story and not - you know - I think sort of the attitudes of people and whatnot. And I think I'm distant enough from it, you know - to do it well. And I do, I go and give talks. Anyway, I got very interested in writing. I found at last I was fulfilling myself. I was finding something - that I had wanted to do. And I started - I went to a creative writing course at City Lit. And I started writing a few articles and bits and pieces. Started getting published and whatnot. And through one of my contacts there - I've always had a natural inclination to comedy. And it's funny, no matter what I write, no matter how tragic or whatnot, the comedy always comes in, it's always in there. And I got involved in a comedy writer's group. And I started writing stuff for radio and whatnot. And I was working on a programme called Week Ending. Which is a satirical programme. And it is quite strange. Because of course people when they look at me, I look like a very conventional, sort of middle aged, middle class person. But there is quite a lot of satire and sort of political whatsit in me. And I worked on this programme Week Ending for quite a long while. And had quite a lot of stuff on it. Which is very satirical and whatnot.

You were writing the sketches?

Yes, yes. I was on that, yeh. And I started writing other sketch shows. Variety. I mean I was very - I suppose almost professional and anti-snobberishism about it. Because the shows that you break into are through the - really quite rubbish shows. Like Little and Large and things like that. And I wrote sketch shows and I started going to Montreaux -

In the early Eighties?

Mid-eighties actually. Yes. It's only really sort of 5 or 6 years that I've been doing all this. Yes. Yes. Mid 80's. And - started doing that. Started getting quite a lot of sketch material on. But it pretty obviously was not going to lead anywhere. I wasn't young, male and Oxbridge. And - I - Oh, I wrote a television play. Oh, that's right. I went to a class for television writing and things. And wrote a television play for the Radio Times competition. I think it was '85. And I was - I was a finalist. And it got disqualified, because at that there wasn't supposed to be any - And it was quite an interesting subject which I had researched on prem babies and the sort of bonding and things like that. It was quite a good play. Anyway, I joined a group called London Screenwriters and started getting involved. And trying to break into television and scriptwriting, which is very difficult. And I wrote a script for 'Boon'. Which is - I think it's Granada, or one of those. Which was going to be produced. And as always happens, just when it's going to be produced they change script editors and your lot go out and whatnot. But I sent the script out. And the script editors of 'All Creatures Great and Small' liked it. And she actually commissioned me. And I've writen a script. And it's just been filmed. And it's going to be in the next series which starts in the autumn. It's probably going to be episode 5, but these things change. I'm the first woman writer. Which is very interesting. That BBC television still - I'm the first woman writer on that series, and it's been going for l2 years. My script has been extremely well received. And I'm hoping that

44 it's going to lead to other things, although God knows in television. I've also got a treatment for a screen play which I call 'A Time to Remember'. Which is a fictitious based on - a refugee who has married out and all that, and who the world is opened up by something. Which may get on, who knows. It's at treatment form at the moment, being considered for a screen play. And I'm also working on a book based on my memoirs, of working at Stepney. Which is being considered for a television series. I mean it all sounds very good. But I mean when you write freelance you just keep on writing, and you're lucky if out of ten projects one is a goer. So you just have to keep on.

My last question to you is really whether you think that anything like the Holocaust could ever happen again?

Yes I do. And I don't think just to Jews. I mean I think - I think we're a little bit too inward looking when we say "Oh" - you know. I think it - The Holocaust was perhaps unique in that it was - the universality of it. I mean the Germans really didn't care who you were. If you were a Jew that was it. Also let's not forget there were other groups. There were gipsies. There were the homosexuals. The basic thing of the Holocaust was that one group thought they were superior to another group. And this is what I find very frightening in Israel. I mean to me - I'm not happy at all about what's happening in Israel. And I think if you start with the basis that one group is superior to another, I really feel human nature is capable of doing anything. And I don't think one group serves any different to the others. I think perhaps where the Holocaust - two major points that hopefully would avoid another Holocaust. One of them - and I say this quite - half jokingly, tongue in cheek - I think the German abilities, their sort of - the way they did things, their organisational skills and the single mindedness of - I mean if one looks at it as a - the logistics of hurting people in sending them and killing them. I mean, you know - you know - I know this might sound a bit repulsive, but I joke and say knowing the British Gas Board, I mean - it's a - it's a - sick joke, but you cannot see the Gas Board ever having organised, you know, gassing in the camps in England. I mean it's the Germans and their ability to accept things and whatnot - that is one of the - I think also the other is the media. Nowadays of course the world is much more open. We see things happening on television a few minutes after. And that's why I feel so strongly that what is happening in Britain at the moment - I mean it's so easy when things start, to say it's just a fireball that - For instance in Ireland. You know, the way the press are not allowed to show what's happening in Ireland. You know, it's so easy to say yes, well they're terrorists and whatnot. But, you know, one generation's terrorists are anothers hero. I mean, you know, the Stern Gang, who committed terrible atrocities in Israel. I don't think we hold them up as heroes. But to be quite honest without them there wouldn't have been an Israel. And the same thing is happening in Ireland. And I'm very against censorship. I think the media - and I think, you know, we must have open media. Even if we feel that it's giving out pictures that we don't like. So I think those - you know, the fact that very few nations have the administrative ability of the Germans, and the media. But I think the hatred and the ability to hurt people and do terrible things, I think that is - I think it's not only in every nation, I think it is in every individual.

End of F420 Side B End of interview