IN PARTNERSHIP WITH NATIONAL LIFE STORIES LIVING MEMORY OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY Joan Salter Interviewed by Melissa Raphael C410/079 IMPORTANT © The British Library Board. Please refer to the Oral History curators at the British Library prior to any publication or broadcast from this document. Oral History The British Library 96 Euston Road London NW1 2DB United Kingdom +44 (0)20 7412 7404 [email protected] Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. Should you find any errors please inform the Oral History curators. BRITISH LIBRARY NATIONAL SOUND ARCHIVE NATIONAL LIFE STORY COLLECTION INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET ____________________________________________________________ Ref. No.: C410/079Playback ____________________________________________________________ Collection Title: The Living Memory of the Jewish Community ____________________________________________________________ Interviewee's surname: SALTER Title: Mrs Interviewee's forenames: JOAN Date of Birth: February l940 Sex: Female ____________________________________________________________ Date(s) of recording: l2/4/90 & 24/4/90 Location of interview: Interviewee's home Name of interviewer: Melissa Raphael Type of recorder: Marantz ____________________________________________________________ Additional material: ____________________________________________________________ Copyright/clearance: Full clearance ____________________________________________________________ F417 Side A My name is Joan Salter. I was born Fanny Zimetbaum, in Brussels, Belgium, in February l940. My parents were both Polish Jews. My mother came from Warsaw, where she was the youngest child of quite a large traditional Jewish family. She says her father was a sort of minor civil servant. But a lot of my mother's memories I take with a pinch of salt, because she is inclined to romanticise, as so many people from Poland do. They have a need to make life having been much better than it was. But I - I do believe that several of her brothers had become professionals. And she speaks of them as having become doctors and things. She was married off when she was already in her mid-twenties, to a man much older than herself. And they then went to live in Paris. This was the early '30's. She - several of her sisters had married professionals. And they were all living in France. It seemed to have been quite common amongst that type, that - to go and live in France and become what one would call middle class. And from the photos and things I can see of that period, they were obviously well-off. And it would appear that really they were probably areligious, to be quite honest. There is no real evidence of them having been particularly religious. Although when she speaks of her parents, she does speak of them as being quite orthodox. And the photos I have seen - they wouldn't have been Chasidim. But her father seems to have worn the hat and had a beard and things like that. So she came from that sort of background. And she lived in Paris. And my half-sister was born in l935. She was actually pregnant with my sister when her husband died of tuberculosis. But she stayed in France. It seemed that she sort of was protected by her sisters, who were quite well off and I think they lived quite a - a good way of life. My father came from quite a different background. He was from Gallicia. The town of Tarnov. His name was Isaac Zimetbaum. He was the - I think he was the second child in a family of four. He had two brothers and one sister. They - his father, it would appear, was in the cloth industry. I think he had a factory of some sort. I don't think they were particularly well-off, because he speaks of the home they had as not being theirs. I think it was rented. And the family were quite - I don't think cultured is the right word, but they were quite liberal in their outlook. Although some of the relatives were extremely ultra-orthodox. He speaks of his parents as having been very open minded. One brother and one sister were very active in the Communist Party. And mixed quite freely with non-Jews and brought them home. And my father tells quite an amusing story, which gives a lot of insights into the sort of culture they had. How my father was called in to have a talk with his father. Who spoke in a third person about a friend of theirs. His heart was being broken because the daughter was bringing treph into the home. And of course it meant that my father had to tell his sister to stop bringing in the ham sandwiches into the home and whatnot. But they were obviously quite a tolerant family. My father - a very fascinating personality. And he tells stories about himself, which I believe are very true. I think his memories are very realistic. Because he really has come to terms with the past. And he says he started smoking when he was about ll. And he was obviously a bit of a lad. He mixed very freely with the non-Jews in the town. Although Tarnov had something like eighty per cent Jewish population. It was part - it had been part of the Austrian/Hungarian Empire. And therefore there wasn't the same divisions as there were in other parts of Poland. And he mixed very freely. And his - the local Chief of Police, who was a non-Jew, his older brother was very friendly with the son. And this played an important part later on in how he survived. And apparently on May Day, or just before May Day, they used to need to lock up all the Communists, because of rioting or whatnot. And the Chief of Police used to come to my grandfather's home. And they'd all sit down and have a few drinks. And my grandfather would promise that Sally would not be allowed out of the house. And apparently she never got put into prison. And on that day she listened to her father. So they did seem to have quite an easy, happy - it seemed to have been 1 quite a happy environment. My father was obviously a rebel from a very early age. Didn't believe in going to school. He used to go and gamble and play cards and things like that. And his father sent him, sort of in his late teens, to Belgium, to a distant cousin who was - if not Chassid, was very religious. To train as a gem cutter. And it's quite funny, because the - the distant cousin obviously looked upon my father as being a - an apprentice-cum-slave, and that obviously wasn't my father's style. And my father did part of his training, but left quite early and went to live in Paris. So he was living in Paris from the late twenties. And he had obviously - just was a sort of businessman. He spoke many languages. Completely integrated into the French way of life. He spoke French absolutely perfectly. Spanish, Italian, Yiddish, German, Polish. Even my mother, who obviously was not a very intelligent person, she also spoke four or five languages. It was just the way of life to them. And did your father have any memories of any anti-Semitism in Poland. Any personal memories? Well, his own experiences were not. But he speaks of his aunt, his father's sister or something, who - who was Chassidic. The family obviously had sort of broken away one generation. That's right, his grandfather apparently was a Chassidic. Rabbi or whatever. And yes, the stories - this is interesting, because although he never experienced them, the stories in his homes were of the pogroms, were of the violent anti-semitism, of the beards being pulled off. And it is the fact that this was a way of life even though he hadn't experienced - explained his own reaction to when anti-Semitism really started. But he himself had no qualms about mixing with non-Jews. And in France and everything - I get the impression that they mixed very freely and that they lived a very, what one would call, a bourgeois sort of life. He met my mother in l936. And they - although it's never actually been said, I think they lived together, you know, they were completely that sort of way of life. A very hedonistic lifestyle. No doubt about it. They used to go to Caen for the summer. And he dealt in everything. He dealt in diamonds and gems. He also would sort of copy the fashions. Go to his father's factory in Poland and they'd make it up and he'd sell it in France. And he was a gambler all his life. It was part of his makeup. It was part of his soul. And, you know, he was a gambler in everything. I mean he was a cardplayer, but he also - I mean he started businesses and everything. And he'd either make a fortune or lose a fortune. That was his character. I'd like to hear more about him. He sounds a very, very fascinating man. But how far back can you go with your knowledge of your ancestors. Of say your grandparents or great grandparents? Only as far - as far as his grandfather. Who he speaks of as having been a Chassidim. And he talks about how - I don't know what part of Poland he lived in. I don't think it was Gallicia. I think they moved from the Northern part at one stage.