20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 1/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 1
1 Special Tribunal for Lebanon
2 In the case of The Prosecutor v. Ayyash, Badreddine, Merhi,
3 Oneissi, and Sabra
4 STL-11-01
5 Presiding Judge David Re, Judge Janet Nosworthy,
6 Judge Micheline Braidy, Judge Walid Akoum, and
7 Judge Nicola Lettieri - [Trial Chamber]
8 Thursday, 28 May 2015 - [Trial Hearing]
9 [Open Session]
10 --- Upon commencing at 10.02 a.m.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The Special Tribunal for Lebanon is sitting in an
12 open session in the case of the Prosecutor versus Ayyash, Badreddine,
13 Merhi, Oneissi, and Sabra, case number STL-11-01.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning to everyone. We will continue
15 with the evidence of Mr. Siniora in a moment. I'll just note the
16 appearances first.
17 We have Mr. Cameron for the Prosecution, Mr. Mattar for the Legal
18 Representatives of Victims. Good morning, Mr. Mattar. We have Mr. Aoun
19 for Mr. Ayyash, Mr. Korkmaz for Mr. Badreddine, Mr. Hassan for
20 Mr. Oneissi, Mr. Roberts for Mr. Sabra, Mr. Khalil for Mr. Merhi. And
21 there are two representatives of the Defence Office seated here.
22 Good morning to you, Mr. Siniora.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I just have an oral decision I must deliver.
25 So we will continue with the questioning in a moment.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 2/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Ruling (Open Session) Page 2
1 This is a decision on protective measures for five witnesses.
2 The decision is the following.
3 In a motion for protective measures for Witnesses PRH006, 430,
4 018, 007, and 115, on the 11th of May, 2015, that's filing F1943, the
5 Prosecution requested the Trial Chamber to order protective measures
6 under Rule 133 of the Special Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and Evidence
7 for those five witnesses. The witnesses are scheduled to testify between
8 mid-June and mid-July.
9 The requested measures include: One, an order for the identity
10 of the witnesses to remain confidential; two, using a pseudonym to refer
11 to them in all public hearings and documents; three, redacting from any
12 documents made public any information that may identify the witnesses;
13 four, the voice and image distortion when they testify live; and five, an
14 order to prohibit media or third parties from disclosing information if
15 they become aware of the witness's identity and their involvement in
16 these proceedings.
17 The Prosecution provided the Trial Chamber and the parties with
18 statements of the witnesses and additional documents detailing the nature
19 and reasons for the requested protective measures, that is to say, the
20 concerns of these witnesses.
21 All except one of these witnesses are the subject of the
22 Prosecution motion for general authorization for video-conference link
23 testimony and notice of video-conference link testimony for PRH006, 430,
24 020, 007, 115, dated the 12th of May, 2015; that's filing F1947.
25 The Trial Chamber will issue a decision with respect to these
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 3/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Ruling (Open Session) Page 3
1 witnesses later this week.
2 None of the Defence teams responded to the Prosecution motion.
3 Having reviewed all the information provided by the Prosecution and
4 carefully examined all the circumstances, the Trial Chamber considers
5 that the protective measures requested by the Prosecution are justified
6 by the following: The tense security situation currently prevailing in
7 Lebanon, the potential negative affect on the witness's jobs and
8 livelihood, and security concerns affecting their families if their
9 identities are publicly disclosed.
10 The Trial Chamber is therefore satisfied that the requested
11 protective measures are necessary and proportionate in the circumstances.
12 The Prosecution motion complies with Rule 133 and the Chamber accordingly
13 grants the protective measures for the five witnesses as requested by the
14 Prosecution and as I identified above under points 1 to 5.
15 In relation to confidentiality of the motion, because it contains
16 confidential witness information, the Prosecution seeks to keep
17 confidential annex B to its motion filed on the 11th of May, 2015. The
18 Trial Chamber orders the Prosecution either to file a public redacted
19 version of the annex or to have it classified as public. This may await
20 the live testimony of Witnesses 018 and 115.
21 That completes the ruling.
22 Back to you, Mr. Siniora. We are going, as promised yesterday,
23 to complete your evidence today, but to do that we're going to need, as I
24 foreshadowed yesterday, both the cooperation of Mr. Korkmaz and you.
25 So what we'd really like, Mr. Korkmaz, is for you to focus on
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 4/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 4 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 short questions which would allow Mr. Siniora to give short answers,
2 because we noted the complaints that both of you made about each other
3 yesterday, about some of the questions and some of the answers. Now, to
4 avoid that we'd ask, Mr. Korkmaz and Mr. Siniora, please to try and keep
5 it as brief and to the point as possible, and we are confident you'll do
6 that.
7 Mr. Korkmaz.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good
9 morning to the Bench. Good morning to one and all.
10 WITNESS: FOUAD SINIORA [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpretation]
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz: [Continued]
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Prime Minister. I would just like
14 to put a question to you with regard to the situation or status of
15 Hezbollah as a militia, and we were interrupted in that line of
16 questioning yesterday because of the close of the hearing.
17 Now, is it true that Shia ministers put an end to the boycotting
18 of your government after your 2nd of February, 2006, speech before the
19 Parliament? You acknowledged that Hezbollah wasn't a militia but a
20 resistance movement; is that right?
21 A. Yes, they ended the boycott back then.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'd now like to read out an excerpt, an
23 excerpt of said speech that you made, as I said, before the Parliament.
24 I'm going to be reading out in Arabic, but it features in my presentation
25 queue at a particular spot which I'll come to in a second.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 5/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 5 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] But the ERN range is 601387771, and
2 it's at position 14 on our presentation queue. And as I said, I'm going
3 to be reading it out in Arabic because there is the Arabic version and
4 then there is the English version which will help the Bench to follow
5 what I'm reading out. It's a very short excerpt I'll be reading out.
6 Perhaps this can be brought out on the screen, 6013 -- sorry, 73871 [as
7 interpreted], so that the Prime Minister can follow what's going on.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: This is, I think, your statement of the 22nd
9 of May, 2010. Do you have a copy of that with you, Mr. Siniora, in paper
10 form? Which -- am I correct, is that the document --
11 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] This document was appended to his
12 statement, Your Honour, of the 19th of May, 2010. I can give you the
13 details and references if you see fit, but the relevant excerpt is the
14 one I've just referred to, ERN 60138771.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can you just describe to us what the
16 document is, please, Mr. Korkmaz?
17 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. This is an
18 excerpt of a speech. The speech was made by the Prime Minister before
19 the Parliament, that -- on the 2nd of February, 2006. And this
20 particular speech was appended to the statement given by the witness in
21 May 2010. Very well.
22 Q. Prime Minister, so you stated the following:
23 "We, Mr. Speaker," and you mean the Speaker of the Parliament?
24 A. On which date?
25 Q. On the 2nd of February of 2006.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 6/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 6 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 A. Thank you.
2 Q. "We, Speaker, Mr. Speaker, and dear Parliament members, we in the
3 government are totally committed to the ministerial declaration that
4 enabled us to have a vote of confidence for this government, the
5 government that is present here in front of you. This government or this
6 cabinet is committed to the paragraph related to the role of the national
7 resistance. All of the Lebanese highly appreciate the role of the
8 resistance in liberating our land. The Lebanese and the Arab peoples
9 alike appreciate this role and this role was fulfilled with the help of
10 all the Lebanese because such a role wouldn't have been possible without
11 the sacrifices made by all the Lebanese. This is the major national
12 achievement that was done by the resistance, the Lebanese National
13 Resistance, and that once again I repeat we have never called her, we
14 will never call her, as long as it is undertaking such a role, we will
15 never give it any other name but that of a national Lebanese resistance."
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Free interpretation.
17 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] What is the question?
18 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I was just waiting for the end of
19 the interpretation. I was waiting for the end of the interpretation.
20 Q. Prime Minister, do you stand by this excerpt and confirm that you
21 did indeed make it before the National Assembly with regard to the
22 Lebanese resistance?
23 A. I confirm everything that is --
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. -- said in the statement. I would like to also bring your
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 7/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 7 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 attention to what I said where I say, I quote:
2 "I repeat: We will not give it any other name and we did not
3 give it any other name as long as it is undertaking this role or this
4 task."
5 I adopt this position. I will continuously stick to my position
6 unless they change their position, and in fact they changed their
7 position.
8 Q. Prime Minister, what I'm asking is to confirm that you said this
9 in 2006. I'm not asking you to make any comments about initiatives or
10 undertakings or understanding or appraisal, what have you, because here
11 we're before a court and not speaking from a platform. So thank you very
12 much. I've finished with that particular point. And now I would like to
13 address the following.
14 I would like to put one or two questions to you with regard to a
15 meeting, a working meeting that you held on the 11th of October, 2005.
16 And this meeting was done with one of the investigators from the UNIIIC.
17 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Can I call upon the court officer
18 to bring up on our screens the following: The report that was drafted by
19 the investigator in question from the UNIIIC. This is a redacted version
20 and it has the following reference: ERN 310884-310887. And the redacted
21 version features on our presentation queue at 12, if I'm not mistaken.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Does Mr. Siniora have a hard copy of this?
23 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] No -- I don't know. I don't know
24 whether he has a copy, but I did ask for this to be displayed on his
25 screen.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 8/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 8 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes, but the difficulty is it's a four-page
2 document with a lot of bullet points. I think as a matter of fairness we
3 should give Mr. Siniora a copy of it, preferably in English because
4 that's the language in which it was taken, and that would allow him to
5 get the context and the order of the bullet points, that's all.
6 Mr. Cameron will donate or lend his copy to Mr. Siniora.
7 Thank you, Mr. Cameron.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Is it a redacted version you've
9 given, Mr. Cameron? Is it -- well, I've got a redacted version, if that
10 assists.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Siniora, of course you note that this is
12 an investigator's note and it's not your statement. It's an
13 investigator's note purporting to be what you said to him.
14 Which page are we going to or which bullet point, Mr. Korkmaz?
15 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Just the first page. Just the
16 first page, please.
17 Q. Mr. Siniora, have you finished? Are you ready?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Very well. So here we have an investigator's note. I'm not
20 going to reveal the name. That goes without saying. But this reflects
21 the content of a meeting, a meeting that he had with you on the 11th of
22 October, 2005. Can you confirm that date, Prime Minister?
23 A. If this is the date mentioned on the document, then I confirm it.
24 However, I do not remember the date. I do not deny that I met him, but I
25 do not remember the date. But if it's on the document, then it's fine.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 9/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 9 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. But you do confirm the fact that that meeting did indeed take
2 place with that investigator?
3 A. Yes, we met. But I do not remember the date or what we
4 discussed. I need to go through the document.
5 Q. Prime Minister, it's simply for the transcript and for the
6 Chamber. We just need to make sure that we're ensuring that this meeting
7 did indeed take place. It's not to make your life difficult. It's just
8 to make sure that you did faithfully answer the questions that were put
9 to you. That's all I'm seeking here. I'm giving you the date for your
10 purposes, to make your life easier in identifying what we're dealing with
11 here.
12 So on that particular date you were prime minister. And based on
13 what we can read here, this meeting was supposed to - and you can see
14 this on the first page, because it's all broken down here - this meeting
15 was supposed to help the UNIIIC investigators to prepare an interview
16 with President Emile Lahoud that they had already scheduled at this
17 point. Is that right based on -- all the information that is detailed
18 here by the investigator, is it true and correct?
19 A. No. There was a disagreement with President Emile Lahoud;
20 however, it was not about the pension of the military staff.
21 Q. Mr. Siniora, I put no question to you in that regard. All I'm
22 doing is asking you to confirm, and I can read it out in English --
23 [In English] "Mr. Siniora was questioned in preparation for the
24 forthcoming interview with the Lebanese President Emile Lahoud."
25 A. Are you asking me about this first paragraph? Yes.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 10/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 10 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. [Interpretation] I've asked you nothing more, sir. Very well.
2 The investigator who came to see you at the Serail, did he tell you why
3 the commission needed your services as Prime Minister to prepare that
4 interview scheduled with the president of the Lebanese republic?
5 A. Frankly speaking, I do not remember. I don't remember what we
6 discussed. I cannot remember ten years later what we discussed. I
7 cannot but rely on what we see in the document.
8 Q. I'm asking you about the underlying reason for your acceptance in
9 receiving this investigator from the UNIIIC. Was it on his initiative or
10 your initiative that this took place?
11 A. Of course it was based upon his own initiative, the initiative of
12 the investigator.
13 Q. Very well. Since you were head of the government at the time,
14 Prime Minister, therefore you operated under Mr. Emile Lahoud at each
15 cabinet meeting; is that right? You operated under him?
16 A. I think that he attended most of the cabinet meetings when I was
17 prime minister. However, some of the cabinet meetings were held under my
18 own presidency without the attendance of President Emile Lahoud, and this
19 is something stipulated by the constitution.
20 Q. Did you inform the head of state of Lebanon of that meeting, that
21 prior meeting had been contemplated by the commission, the UNIIIC?
22 A. I told you at the beginning, I do not remember the details of the
23 meeting. Maybe I did mention it, maybe not. I do not remember.
24 Q. So if I've understood your evidence, you can't remember whether
25 you informed beforehand the head of state of the investigator's visit to
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 11/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 11 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 interview with regard to Emile Lahoud? Because obviously the purpose of
2 this was to ready a future interview or investigation with Mr. Lahoud.
3 Did you inform Mr. Lahoud of this or not?
4 A. I do not remember.
5 Q. As you will note in perusing the document:
6 [In English] "Highly confidential - Not to be released to
7 Lebanese authorities."
8 [Interpretation] Now, according to you, which Lebanese figure of
9 authority was being referred to in this document? Was it a political or
10 judicial figure?
11 MR. CAMERON: It might be useful for Mr. Korkmaz to canvass with
12 the witness whether that has anything to do with him or is it something
13 unique to the investigator.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. I also wish to ask a question of
15 clarification based on what's just been said.
16 Mr. Siniora, in this investigator's note, dated the 13th of
17 October, 2005, the investigator says -- well, it's actually a memorandum
18 from one investigator to another. He says:
19 "Mr. Siniora was questioned in preparation for the forthcoming
20 interview with the Lebanese President Emile Lahoud."
21 Those are the words of the one investigator to another in the
22 memorandum. The investigator who interviewed you tell you that the
23 purpose of his interviewing you was for preparation for the forthcoming
24 interview with the Lebanese president, Mr. Lahoud?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not remember the
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 12/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 12 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 details. Definitely the investigator came and interviewed me. That's
2 for sure. But whether he explained to me at the time that this was in
3 preparation for a forthcoming interview with the president of the
4 republic, honestly I do not remember. Did I inform the president of the
5 republic that this meeting took place with me? Again, I do not remember.
6 I do not remember all these details. People do forget sometimes. For
7 me, what was important was the content of this document, and I'm now
8 reading this for the first time.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: But, Mr. Lahoud -- sorry, Mr. -- I
10 apologize, Mr. Siniora, there is a reference there to Mr. Lahoud, of
11 course.
12 Mr. Korkmaz was just taking you a moment ago to what's written at
13 the top of the document, which you're saying you're seeing for the first
14 time. It says:
15 "Highly confidential - Not to be released to Lebanese
16 authorities."
17 You just said you're seeing this document for the first time.
18 Can you shed any light at all what this means? Does it mean anything to
19 you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is printed on papers that
21 belong to the Tribunal. It's prepared by an investigator and he wrote on
22 it: [In English] "Not to be released to the Lebanese authorities."
23 [Interpretation] Therefore, you need to ask the investigator. This is
24 not a question that I can answer. I did not prepare this document. I
25 never saw it before and now I'm reading this. Again, I didn't even
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 13/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 13 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 finished reading this document.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, please continue.
3 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Did he tell you and were you aware of the fact that the
5 information you were going to provide was confidential in nature and that
6 should not be disseminated to the Lebanese authorities?
7 A. Normally what I say is something that can be accessible to
8 anyone. I have nothing to hide. No, I did not tell him: [In English]
9 Not to be released. [Interpretation] It's impossible for me to tell him:
10 Not to be released. And everything that I'm reading here is [In English]
11 public information. [Interpretation] Therefore, I have nothing to hide
12 in this. Maybe he put this headline on his own. I never told him that
13 this was confidential information that should not be released to anyone.
14 It's impossible for me to say something like that.
15 Q. Now, to finish up on this subject, did he tell you that the
16 questions that he was about to put to you and that the information that
17 you would provide would result in information that was confidential in
18 nature? This is him talking to you. And that it would be, therefore,
19 forbidden to release them to the Lebanese authorities? Do you have any
20 recall of that?
21 A. No. I don't remember him telling me and I don't remember me
22 telling him something of this sort. And definitely the information that
23 is included here, now that I'm reading the document, it's not something
24 that I wanted to hide.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, there is a basic problem with
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 14/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 14 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 your question and that is it's not a witness statement in which the
2 witness makes the acknowledgement about not revealing information or they
3 could become a witness before the Tribunal. They appear to be background
4 investigator's notes of a conversation. There is simply no
5 acknowledgement from the person spoken to that he or she must keep the
6 information to themselves including the fact that they were even spoken
7 to by the investigators. So where can that take us?
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] What I am attempting to ascertain,
9 of course, is whether Mr. Siniora provided the information provided in
10 this report, whether the information that he provided was information
11 that he knew ahead of time that was information not to be provided to the
12 Lebanese authorities, and if so, why therefore it was then said that it
13 was information not to be released to the Lebanese authorities and if he
14 has any information in that regard. So --
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, the document doesn't say that.
16 It says: "Highly confidential - Not to be released to the Lebanese
17 authorities." That's the document. Meaning, you don't release the
18 document to the Lebanese authorities. That's my plain reading of a
19 document which has like "top secret" or something stamped on it. Not to
20 be provided to person X or person Y. How much further can you take it?
21 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I was just trying to ascertain
22 whether he was informed of that fact and whether the contents or the
23 information provided by Mr. Siniora to the UNIIIC was to remain
24 confidential either at the behest of Mr. Siniora himself or at the behest
25 of the investigator. That's what I was attempting to find out.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 15/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 15 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Now, secondly, I also wanted to know whether the information
2 provided in this document was, indeed, provided by Mr. Siniora to the
3 investigator. That's my second question.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer to this is the following:
5 I never said anything and I never mentioned the words: [In English]
6 "Highly confidential - Not to be released to the Lebanese authorities."
7 [Interpretation] So this is not something that I provided.
8 Second, the information included - and now I'm reading very
9 quickly - I'm realizing that this is information that was said about me.
10 So some expressions were used that showed that I did say this. But,
11 again, I cannot prove that everything here in these two pages, that
12 everything was something that I said. What I can say is that there are
13 some things, some information that is true.
14 On the first page, for example, regarding the conflict between me
15 and Emile Lahoud regarding the pension, this is not true. On page number
16 2 regarding what happened in the attack on the Ministry of Finance and
17 the raid on that ministry, this is something true.
18 So I'm mentioning this because this is not my statement. These
19 were information that was mentioned based on what I said. So either he
20 did not understand or he's making conclusions, but there are some
21 information on this page -- some information that is true.
22 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Very well. But the reason for my putting the question to you is
24 that it is indicated as follows: This is your information and it is not
25 his analysis or comments provided by him, and I wanted to know whether
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 16/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 16 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 this was indeed the information that you provided to the investigator.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, he's already answered that. He
3 said: I did but some of it's conclusion and some of it's not quite
4 correct; for example, the bit on the first page.
5 Mr. Siniora, the first page it says:
6 "Mr. Siniora was the only one who was against the increased
7 pension but he was in Parliament the only one who voted against the
8 proposal."
9 You said that's incorrect. Can you just tell me in the briefest
10 possible way what's incorrect about that particular piece of information?
11 Were you not the only one who voted against it, for example?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I have a little bit of time to
13 finish reading this because I'm reading this for the first time.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You may, but could you just first just go to
15 my question on the pension part, then you can read it. Just the first
16 page, the bottom bullet point, which asserts that you were the only one
17 in Parliament to vote against the pension plan. You said that was
18 incorrect. Is it correct or incorrect?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What is mentioned:
20 [In English] "The reason for the clash were the discussion about the
21 pension of the soldiers," [Interpretation] this bit is not true. There
22 were periods of time when we did not agree regarding the salaries and
23 wages, yes. But regarding this particular confrontation that took place,
24 it had nothing to do whatsoever with salaries or wages or the pensions of
25 army soldiers. It had nothing to do with that whatsoever. It was simply
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 17/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 17 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 related and it was focused on the wish to purchase a personal vehicle for
2 every officer. That was the reason.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: So where the investigator has written:
4 "The reason for the clash," it's bad English, "were the
5 discussion about the pension of army soldiers."
6 Is that precise quote, as you have just described, incorrect?
7 You can just say "yes"?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. If you could just take a moment to
10 read through it, because Mr. Korkmaz wants to ask you whether it
11 accurately reflects what you told the investigator.
12 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. Korkmaz, are you going to ask
13 him about the entire document or only the first page? I understood that
14 you want to ask questions about the first page, just to save some time.
15 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I just wanted
16 to --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that everything --
18 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I just wanted to put questions to
19 him with regard to all the responses provided herein and to ascertain
20 whether these were indeed responses that he gave and whether they were
21 faithfully repeated.
22 Now without taking time for each question, I wanted him to read
23 the document and say whether, yes or no, he confirmed that this was the
24 information he did provide.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, go ahead.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 18/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 18 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So you confirm that all the responses that you provided were
3 faithfully reproduced by the investigator, do you? A yes or no answer,
4 please. That's all I'm seeking.
5 A. With the exception of what I mentioned at the beginning, most of
6 what I read is in accordance with something that I would say.
7 Q. Very well, Mr. Siniora, and I thank you. So I have finished with
8 that area now, and I would now like to move on to another topic; notably,
9 the issue of Resolution 1559 and 1757, which allegedly served as a weapon
10 to fight against Hezbollah. That is, of course, one of the hypotheses,
11 one of many.
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The document we just looked at, what do you
13 want to do with it? You asked Mr. Siniora questions on it, he's affirmed
14 it's almost general -- it's general almost total accuracy in terms of
15 what he would have said. Is it a document you want to use at a later
16 point and want an exhibit number for, or is it just something we'll move
17 on from and forget we ever looked at?
18 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Of course we're not going to forget
19 it now that it is part of the proceedings and he confirmed before the
20 Court that all the information reproduced corresponded to what he said.
21 We can, of course, provide a reference number to this item.
22 MR. CAMERON: I think my friend is optimistic in the manner in
23 which he characterizes this particular document. Mr. Siniora began with
24 a very explicit example of how the document was incorrect, and then for
25 the balance of the document he said "most of it," which is -- we have no
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 19/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 19 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 idea what parts he adopts and what parts he doesn't. Mr. Siniora has
2 come to give oral evidence, not merely to adopt his statements. And if
3 my friend wishes to rely on particular aspects of this statement, it will
4 be my position that Prime Minister Siniora has not adopted, in its
5 entirety, this statement and is of no evidentiary value to you.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Let's just confirm.
7 Mr. Siniora, you heard what the Prosecutor said about whether
8 there were any parts which you are not adopting or you're saying are not
9 accurate. Before we give it an exhibit number, I want to make sure that
10 you've had a proper chance to disagree with anything there and inform us
11 of any part which you consider to be inaccurate or a misrepresentation.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, this information that
13 is included in these two or three pages shows that this investigator met
14 with me and he took notes of the conclusion of what we discussed. Maybe
15 he did not use some expressions very accurately, but the information as
16 far as this quick glance that I took at the document, it seems to be
17 accurate and true and it seems to be something that I told him. But,
18 okay, sometimes he's using some expressions in the text that are his own
19 expressions and not mine.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: To save time, what we'll do is, when we take
21 the break, we'll ask you to have a look at the document and go through it
22 and then we'll come back to it later. And if there is anything specific
23 which you think is --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do so.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Mr. Korkmaz.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 20/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 20 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I note in response to my learned
2 friend that Mr. Siniora had just made a few reservations with regard to
3 one issue and not the entirety of the document. Of course, I do agree
4 with you, Mr. President, that Mr. Siniora should be allowed to have the
5 time to read through the document and say what he thinks. Very well.
6 MR. CAMERON: Just as a -- and this will come up again. It will
7 be my -- it's my position now and it will be my position in the future
8 that when documents like this are put to a witness who has come from
9 Lebanon to testify orally before you, that the appropriate way to elicit
10 evidence from that witness is to put specific passages so that he has a
11 chance to focus on them, to explain them, and the evidence is adequately
12 and accurately presented to the Court, rather than this more less
13 sophisticated approach of gathering up a bundle of evidence, putting it
14 in a basket and asking you to consider it at a later date when it hasn't,
15 with specificity, been adopted by the witness. You will have no clear
16 idea as to whether the expressions used and relied upon later by my
17 friend are truly from the mouth of the witness at the time. But since we
18 have the witness here, I think it's incumbent upon my friend to take the
19 witness to the specific passages that he will later rely upon and ask the
20 witness: Is this specific passage correct and do you have anything else
21 to say about it? Especially given the fact that this is not a witness
22 statement of the witness but full of interpretations, phrases used which
23 he himself acknowledges did not come from his mouth.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We've heard Mr. Cameron's objection. We'll
25 return to the document later. So can we move to the next area now,
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 21/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 21 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 please, without further debate on this, please, Mr. Korkmaz. Let's just
2 move to the next area. We can revisit this document after the break.
3 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] So I am going to have an excerpt of
4 an article brought up on the screen by Dr. Franklin Lamb published in
5 Veterans Today. He's a very specialized journalist in all things to do
6 with the Near East -- Middle East. So this is an article which figures
7 on our list at number 71, bearing reference ERN 1DT2-0599.
8 Q. Do you have this document before you on your screen, sir?
9 So at the top of the page of this article, Mr. Franklin Lamb
10 talks about a statement made by the former American ambassador to Lebanon
11 on the 22nd of October, 2010, in which he confesses having had the plan
12 of making sure that the STL accuse Imad Mughniyah of the assassination of
13 Mr. Hariri if he accepted to be removed from the list of terrorist
14 organizations.
15 Now, my question is as follows: Did you hear talk of this
16 confession at all or of this statement being made?
17 A. Frankly, I'm not understanding the meaning of this. First of
18 all, this is an article that was written by a journalist, a journalist
19 that I do not know. I don't know who he is, where he took his
20 information from. As far as I'm concerned, this is the first time I look
21 at this and learn about this.
22 Second, there were lots of rumours and hearsay about the role of
23 Hezbollah and no role of Hezbollah, that there were negotiations with
24 Hezbollah. Honestly, I don't know anything about all of this.
25 What is your question specifically? What you are asking me
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 22/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 22 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 about?
2 Q. Mr. Siniora, were you to be a bit more attentive to the questions
3 put, you would know what answer I'm seeking. I am simply attempting to
4 ascertain whether what was written and reporting what Mr. Feltman was
5 saying or had said, whether you were aware of this? Whether you were
6 aware of the fact that Mr. Feltman had made such a statement?
7 A. I have absolutely no knowledge of this.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: He answered it, Mr. Korkmaz. I'm sorry to
9 interject, but Mr. Siniora answered. He'd said he'd never seen it
10 before. Doesn't that answer it?
11 And what's the source of it? What's the Saudi-Syrian back
12 channel, apparently on the 22nd of October, 2010? Is that a means of
13 communication or is it a television broadcasting station?
14 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] No, sir. This is an article that
15 was published in that magazine, written by Dr. Franklin Lamb, and which
16 says or reports a statement made by Mr. Feltman. Mr. Siniora met
17 Mr. Feltman on a number of occasions, and I wanted to know whether he had
18 heard about this statement made by Mr. Feltman, yes or no.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: That's what he said before, but my question
21 to you, Mr. Korkmaz, was: What is the Saudi-Syrian back channel? What's
22 the source of the information?
23 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] The source of the information is
24 what Mr. Christopher [sic] Lamb writes. He is a specialized journalist,
25 he has access to his sources of information, and I wanted to know whether
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 23/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 23 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Mr. Siniora was aware of this or not.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And for the third time, the Saudi-Syrian
3 back channel, do you know what that is?
4 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] This is a source of information
5 through the media provided by Mr. Franklin Lamb, and I am relying upon
6 the statements made by Mr. Franklin Lamb in his article. It is public in
7 nature. It dates back to the 20th of October, 2010, and I wanted to know
8 whether Mr. Siniora was aware of the suggestion made by this gentleman,
9 yes or no.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And for the fourth and final time, do you
11 know what the Saudi-Syrian back channel is?
12 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only know
13 Mr. Christopher [sic] Lamb's article. I have knowledge only of that,
14 what is being reported, and this gentleman is highly professional, and
15 I'm referring to the information provided by him.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do you know what the Saudi-Syrian back
17 channel is, Mr. Siniora?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know anything that has
19 anything to do with this channel or any other channels, and I do not know
20 anything about this journalist. And I never read this article.
21 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Generally speaking, without referring specifically to
23 Mr. Feltman, have you heard talk of a hypothesis or a suggestion to that
24 effect going to this hypothesis? Generally speaking, has this ever been
25 mentioned, to your knowledge, this hypothesis? According to you, of
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 24/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 24 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 course.
2 A. I have never heard of this hypothesis, this Saudi-Syrian channel
3 with the Hezbollah. I have never heard of this.
4 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like now to move on to another
5 question.
6 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I'd like to have brought up on your
7 screen an article that was published in CounterPunch, penned by Franklin
8 Lamb again. And this is 1DT2-0611, and it features on our presentation
9 queue at position 74.
10 Q. And I'm going to be putting questions to you about information
11 that feature in that article. I've got three questions, more
12 specifically, that I wish to put to you in this regard.
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It seems to be a fairly lengthy article, 1,
14 2, 3, 4, 5 - there are 5 pages. Are you going to take Mr. Siniora to
15 specific parts or would it be fair to allow him a few minutes to read it?
16 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am just going to put
17 questions to him about the first page. There are three paragraphs on
18 that page and nothing further, so I'll only be homing in on those
19 passages on the first page, as I said.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay.
21 MR. KORKMAZ: Okay.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: For the record, you're reading to or showing
23 Mr. Siniora an article from the weekend edition of CounterPunch, the 9th
24 to the 11th of December, 2011, entitled "Stuck in the Chimney, Jeff
25 Feltman delivers his annual yuletide gifts to Lebanon," by Franklin Lamb.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 25/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 25 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 With the subtitle: "South Beirut."
2 Okay, sorry, got the wrong one. Excuse me. It is the weekend
3 edition of the 19th to 21st of November, 2010, CounterPunch: "Attacking
4 Nasrallah; How the US and Israel hope to destroy Hezbollah," by Franklin
5 Lamb, Beirut. Are you coming to the yuletide one a little bit later --
6 the Christmas edition, Mr. Korkmaz? It's in our bundle of documents.
7 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 Q. Now, in this article one can read under the pen of this
9 journalist that Mr. Feltman said in English:
10 [In English] "I've these [expletive deleted] just where we want
11 them Maura!"
12 Maura was the new ambassador, the new US ambassador to Lebanon
13 who replaced Mr. Feltman.
14 [In English] "Watch the 1.000 slow cuts as we shred Hezbollah -
15 who do they think they are? And we'll do it by using 1757" - the
16 Resolution 1757 - "and this time we're going all the way. I told Israel
17 to stay out of Lebanon because the IDF can't defeat Hezbollah plus the
18 whole region would burn. I will handle this and it will be my Christmas
19 present to Lebanon."
20 [Interpretation] Here's my first question: Did you hear about
21 this information?
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just before you answer. Also just need to
23 go on that the source of the information was reportedly Mr. Feltman
24 talking to his former staffer who became the US ambassador, Maura
25 Connelly, on the 17th of October, 2010, while visiting Mr. Jumblatt at
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 26/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 26 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 his Clemenceau residence. That's the source Mr. Lamb gives for that
2 quote attributed to Mr. Feltman.
3 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
4 Q. So, Prime Minister, were you aware of this?
5 A. As I said earlier, I have never heard of this journalist or
6 writer. I have not read this article. Third, I have never heard Feltman
7 saying this is the Christmas gift or present. We are not in the context
8 of exchanging presents. He has never mentioned in my presence the issue
9 pertaining to the Ghajar village in 2006. Fifth, what we are asking from
10 the United States of America is the issue pertaining to the Shebaa farms,
11 to recover the Shebaa farms. The Ghajar village should have been brought
12 back to Lebanon without any discussion.
13 Q. Sir, please. Please, Prime Minister. I do apologize
14 interrupting you, but I did put to you a very straight-forward question
15 about this information, asking you whether you were aware of this
16 information. I didn't ask you whether you read the article. All I asked
17 was --
18 A. Absolutely not.
19 Q. Very well. Another question, then. In this article, sir, in
20 paragraph -- well, in fact, the next paragraph, the second paragraph,
21 sorry --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The second sentence.
23 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I'll read you the excerpt, and this goes to you:
25 [In English] "On December 12, 2008, Naharnet.com reported that
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 27/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 27 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 'Former US Ambassador Geoffrey Feltman presented Prime Minister
2 Fouad Siniora with what the American diplomat described as his personal
3 Christmas present to Lebanon. Mr. Feltman assured PM Siniora that he
4 will force Israel out of Ghajar village before the end of 2008.'"
5 [Interpretation] Is that true and accurate, that information, yes
6 or no?
7 A. No. He did not give me any promises and nothing --
8 Q. Very well.
9 A. -- nothing was implemented in this regard.
10 Q. Second question. The author of this article says in English:
11 [In English] "As it turned out, Prime Minister Fouad Siniora and
12 Lebanon never did receive Feltman's promised 2008 Christmas present and
13 Israel has its tanks and troops in Lebanon's Ghajar village even as
14 pressure mounts for ending its four-year illegal occupation of North
15 Ghajar which, in violation of UNSCR 1701, Israel invaded in July 2006 and
16 from which it has refused to withdraw."
17 [Interpretation] Is that information true and accurate, yes or
18 no?
19 A. What is correct in this information is that Israel is still
20 occupying this part of Lebanon. What piece of information, what part of
21 this information are you asking me about?
22 Q. This is information that features in the article which says that
23 Mr. Feltman promised you that Israel would leave the north of Ghajar, the
24 village of Ghajar. Is this true, yes or no? Did he make that promise to
25 you?
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 28/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 28 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 A. I had replied to your question earlier. I said he did not give
2 me any promises and Israel did not implement anything in this regard.
3 Q. Why do you say that they didn't execute or implement on this if
4 it says that?
5 A. It did not implement Resolution 1701.
6 Q. So if it didn't execute 1701, were there promises from the US or
7 its allies that they were going to exert the necessary pressure upon
8 Israel so that this latter applied 1701 and evacuate Ghajar village?
9 A. Dear Counsel, you used the term "allies." Allies with whom?
10 Whom are you referring to?
11 Q. I'm thinking very openly about support from the US. There is no
12 shame in that.
13 A. You are putting words in my mouth, terms that I definitely do not
14 use. The United States of America are not my allies. The United States
15 of America is a major power. They had a role to play in Resolution 1701,
16 but they are not our allies as a political faction or party. In all
17 cases, Ambassador Feltman did not give me any promises whatsoever
18 regarding Ghajar village. Resolution 1701 calls clearly for the
19 withdrawal of Israel from all the territories that it occupied in the
20 year 2006; namely, the northern part of the Ghajar village.
21 Back to the seven-point plan, our request as Lebanese was to
22 recover our sovereignty over the Shebaa farm and Kfarchouba.
23 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] For the sake of clarification, I
24 have never heard of something called the Saudi-Syrian back channel. When
25 you were discussing this with the witness, I sought the advice of Google
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 29/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 29 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 but I did not find anything to explain this term.
2 Second, there is a question purported to Mr. Jeffrey Feltman. I
3 will quote in English.
4 [In English] "Let us blame Mughniyah for killing Hariri. He's
5 dead so the investigative trail ends."
6 [Interpretation] First of all, as you know, Mughniyah is not
7 accused, is not one of the accused in this case. Second, even if we
8 would level accusations against Mughniyah, is this the end of the trial?
9 So do you see any minimum end of logic in what this writer or journalist
10 is writing? This is what I'm asking.
11 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my job is not to
12 appraise the statements of this or that person. I am just relying on a
13 study or analysis performed by somebody who is highly specialized and
14 very well informed. I'm putting this question, therefore, to the
15 Prime Minister, who at the time was prime minister and the investigation
16 was in full swing.
17 I'm asking him, therefore, whether he heard about that
18 information with regard to the accusations made or at least this kind of
19 exchange, in inverted commas, that had been mooted and the Lebanese media
20 talked about at the time. All I wanted to do was make sure whether
21 Mr. Siniora had knowledge of that information, yes or no, or whether he
22 had any comment to make in that regard. And Mr. Siniora says no. So
23 that would mean that there was no accusation with regard to Mr. Mughniyah
24 or any other individual.
25 But I don't want to get involved in any debate about appraising
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 30/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 30 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 the answer per se. I just wanted to establish whether Mr. Siniora, who
2 was very well abreast of the situation at the time because he was
3 prime minister and he was supposed to gather all the information to his
4 ministry, and it would be quite natural that a question should be put to
5 him in that regard.
6 Q. A final question, Prime Minister, with regard to this particular
7 analysis. So after that particular paragraph, the analyst says:
8 [In English] "Feltman is now again assuring his Lebanese allies
9 that he's Santa Claus and Hezbollah's head will adorn his sleigh during
10 his Christmas eve rounds. The reason for his optimism is that US and
11 Israel are quietly confident that they can achieve with UNSCR 1757 what
12 was intended but fell short with UNSCR 1559, stripping Lebanon's
13 Resistance of its defensive weapons."
14 [Interpretation] And here's my question: Do you also have
15 specific information with regard to what was said and what I've just read
16 out to you, sir?
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Which bit? About Mr. Feltman, Santa Claus's
18 sleigh, or the optimism with Security Council Resolution 1757, stripping
19 Lebanon's Resistance of its defensive weapons? It's divided into several
20 parts.
21 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] With regard to this information,
22 what is of prime importance for me is:
23 [In English] "The reason of his optimism is that ..."
24 [Interpretation] But to understand the underlying reasons for his
25 optimism I had to read out the preceding paragraph.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 31/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 31 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. So is it true that 1757 was, to a certain extent, something that
2 supported or replaced 1559? That it couldn't be implemented because
3 everybody was pitted against it. That's the hypothesis which is provided
4 here. Did you have any information or do you have any information to
5 give to the Chamber with respect to that?
6 A. I shall reiterate once again that I have never read any article
7 written by this journalist. Second, I did not read this article in
8 particular. Third, regardless of my opinion regarding mixing up all
9 these matters in this article and mixing up all the cards, all the facts,
10 and what is he claiming to be saying on behalf of Feltman, let me tell
11 you that we did not receive any promise with any Christmas gift given to
12 Lebanon regarding Ghajar village.
13 As to Resolution 1757, I would like to thank you for referring to
14 this resolution. We consider that Resolution 1757 is a resolution that
15 called for the creation of the STL. This was a rightful decision that we
16 welcomed in order to install justice and to unveil the perpetrators of
17 crimes and to end impunity so that criminals can be brought to justice
18 and so that this would prevent them from perpetrating more crimes in the
19 future. I think that we followed up everything pertaining to the
20 creation of the STL and that was a good and wise decision. And later on,
21 we saw what happened with Michel Samaha, this terrorist, and we saw the
22 result and the judgment that was made by the Lebanese judiciary. This
23 was an additional proof that we were on the right track when we called
24 for the establishment of the STL.
25 That's why all of this article is made of nothing but
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 32/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 32 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 fabrications, unfounded nonsense, and we are totally ignoring it and we
2 have nothing to do with such an article.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: You didn't comment upon the part of the US
4 ambassador playing Santa Claus. Did you ever hear of that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you want me to comment
6 upon? I have never heard of this before and nothing was implemented in
7 terms of the promises as per the allegations of the writer.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Just a clarification here, please. When the author of the
10 article talks about Feltman saying that he assured himself of his
11 Lebanese allies, so who, according to you, were his Lebanese allies?
12 A. Don't you think that this question should be put to Mr. Feltman?
13 He's the one who could give you an answer.
14 Q. Of course he can be questioned on that point. You know full well
15 that Mr. Feltman enjoyed certain privileges, immunities. So I'm glad
16 you're here because you've met Mr. Feltman on a number of occasions, 40
17 or so occasions, so perhaps you can shed light on this. Based on your
18 information, based on your knowledge, who he was referring to when he
19 said that?
20 A. I cannot give you answer on behalf of Mr. Feltman. I cannot tell
21 you whom does he consider to be his allies or enemies. We dealt with
22 Mr. Feltman in his capacity as a US ambassador in Lebanon. Full stop.
23 Q. Mr. Feltman was providing your regional, local defence, your
24 general policy. Wasn't he defending it and supporting it? Wasn't he
25 shielding you?
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 33/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 33 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 A. He supported the position and the claims of the Lebanese
2 government in some matters, and in other matters he did not give any
3 support, and in some other matters maybe he was opposed to the position
4 of the Lebanese government. According to us, he was implementing the
5 policy of his government, of his country, and our relationship is based
6 on this. It was not based on anything else.
7 Q. So if I've understood your answer, Mr. Feltman was aware -- he
8 was informed of your policy, what you intended to do or didn't intend to
9 do, because he positioned himself based on such-and-such a policy or
10 position that you took at the time?
11 A. He had his own position, of course, a position whereby he
12 translates the policy of the United States. Of course, naturally they
13 would support us on some topics and not on others. Our position was very
14 clearly defined in the seven-point plan; namely, regarding the Shebaa
15 farm and Kfarchouba village. Of course, this was not implemented.
16 Despite all the talks and discussions we had with them regarding this, we
17 could not implement this. We are talking here about bilateral relations
18 between countries and not about personal relationships.
19 Q. My last question: Did you speak to Mr. Feltman to have the
20 Security Council Resolutions implemented that you've just referred to,
21 1701, 1757, 1559? Did you do that, sir?
22 A. Throughout the series of meetings with him, we would definitely
23 discussed the international resolutions. This is something that -- it is
24 needless to mention.
25 Q. Did you ask his backing so that he would step in through his
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 34/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 34 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 networks in the United States, around the world, in order to have those
2 resolutions implemented?
3 A. You place the three international resolutions at the same level.
4 Yes, regarding 1701, 1757, yes. And I say it loudly. As to Resolution
5 1559, no.
6 Q. Were you aware of the implementation of 1559 before it was
7 actually implemented?
8 A. I heard of it, as it was the case for any Lebanese citizen back
9 then.
10 Q. I don't think the Lebanese people were aware, had any prior
11 knowledge of the preparing of the United States of Resolution 1559. My
12 question goes to you: Were you informed, yes or no, of the preparation
13 of 1559 before it was adopted by the Security Council?
14 A. I knew about what was published in the newspaper back then.
15 Q. You say it's the rumours of press, and the press is saying this,
16 that, and the other, but I'm putting the question to you. I'm not
17 talking about the press here. I'm asking you, you. Were you previously
18 informed about the implementation of Resolution 1559? It's very
19 straight-forward. Yes or no, sir?
20 A. My answer is also simple. I only knew about what I read in the
21 newspaper. We read that there was a resolution being prepared in order
22 to be adopted by the Security Council in this regard.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly ask the speakers to slow
24 down between question and answer.
25 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 35/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 35 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. So you were never informed, if I've understood your evidence --
2 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Forgive me.
3 Q. So if I've understood your evidence, you weren't informed through
4 official channels or representatives other than the press of the fact
5 that -- of all the preparatory work going into 1559?
6 A. Yes, correct. My knowledge was limited to what I read in the
7 newspaper.
8 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Thank you. I've finished on that
9 line of questioning just before the break. I don't know whether the
10 Chamber has any questions.
11 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. Prime Minister, I have a very
12 short question to you. Did the United Nations or the Security Council
13 ask both the Lebanese and Syrian governments to submit their comments on
14 the draft resolution of -- the draft 1559 resolution prior to its
15 adoption by the Security Council? You were not a minister of foreign
16 affairs back then.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not know if there was a
18 request or not, but I knew later on that there was a memorandum that was
19 sent by the Lebanese foreign minister in this context. This is all what
20 I know about Resolution 1559.
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Mr. Korkmaz, have we finished with
22 Mr. Franklin Lamb or are you going to go to his Christmas edition of 2011
23 of "Stuck in the Chimney, Jeff Feltman delivers his annual yuletide gifts
24 to Lebanon," or have we finished with that?
25 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did put questions
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 36/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 36 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 on that subject to Mr. Siniora who denies any knowledge of this analysis,
2 so I shall not revisit that point.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: It was a different Christmas, a year later.
4 But, Mr. Siniora, if you could please look at the investigator's
5 notes of your conversation with him from 2005 over the break, and if
6 necessary, Mr. Korkmaz will ask you to clarify anything you disagree
7 with.
8 We'll take a short adjournment.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.32 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What's your next topic, Mr. Korkmaz?
12 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before commencing, I
13 have two requests to make. I would like to give exhibit numbers to the
14 two articles from Mr. Franklin Lamb, if that pleases the Chamber.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'm not sure it does please the Chamber.
16 Was there any objection from the Prosecution?
17 MR. CAMERON: Yes, given the answers provided by Mr. Siniora,
18 there can be no evidentiary value to those articles and it's our position
19 that it's inappropriate to receive them as exhibits.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Although the documents may on their face
22 appear relevant, the Chamber is not satisfied that they have the
23 sufficient indicia of reliability to be probative, and the Trial Chamber,
24 having heard Mr. Siniora's responses to your questions on the two
25 articles, sees no need to admit them into evidence. The content is on
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 37/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 37 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 the record. We cannot take it any further.
2 Thank you, Mr. Korkmaz.
3 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I would just like to clarify with
4 regard to the questions that you put to me about the Saudi-Syrian back
5 channel.
6 I didn't really grasp your question. This is not anything to do
7 with media. This is -- the Saudi-Syrian back channel is an expression
8 used by Mr. Feltman who talks about the behind-the-scene negotiations
9 that took place at the time. It was what is called the "seen-seen"
10 [phoen] - and the Lebanese Judges would recognize this - that began with
11 the tripartite between Bashar Al-Assad and President Suleiman at the
12 historic summit. That was the Saudi-Syrian back channeling that I was
13 talking about.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you. In case it wasn't recorded, at
15 page 35, line 24, when you, Mr. Korkmaz, said you would like to give
16 exhibit numbers to the Franklin Lamb articles, if it pleases the Chamber,
17 I said: "I'm not sure that it does please the Chamber." The words
18 recorded say "it does please the Chamber," when it didn't.
19 So your next area, Mr. Korkmaz. Where are we going?
20 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I am now going to move on to the
21 statement, the witness statement made by Mr. Siniora with regard to the
22 day of the 26th of August, 2004, when Mr. Hariri went to Damascus to meet
23 Mr. Assad and discuss the extension of President Lahoud's mandate.
24 Q. In your witness statement dated the 4th of August, 2010, you
25 state that Mr. Hariri talked to you about his meeting with Mr. Assad and
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 38/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 38 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 that the latter said to him that -- this is what you stated in your
2 testimony on the 4th of August, 2010.
3 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] And this is ERN 60181056-60181123.
4 And the relevant page is 60181063.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Let's do one thing at a time.
6 Firstly, Mr. Siniora, do you have a copy of your statement of the
7 4th of August there with you in your bundle? All those documents you
8 have there?
9 Which paragraph in particular are you taking Mr. Siniora to,
10 Mr. Korkmaz?
11 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I'd like to hone in on paragraph
12 46, Mr. President. Paragraph 46, fourth line thereof.
13 Q. Can you confirm this statement, notably, "break Lebanon over his
14 head"? Mr. Jumblatt, before the Court only a few weeks ago, said that
15 when Mr. Hariri reported to him the discussion he had had with Mr. Assad,
16 he did indeed use the words "break Lebanon," but he denied that
17 Mr. Hariri said "over your head." What do you have to say to this? Do
18 you stand by your version or do you consider that what Mr. Jumblatt said
19 is more accurate?
20 A. I stand by the text that I mentioned in my statement, verbatim,
21 when Prime Minister Hariri told me that President Assad told him, "I will
22 break Lebanon over your head."
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, you're going to have to remind
24 us which is the passage for Mr. Jumblatt's testimony? Can you just give
25 me the date and the page number so I can just see the context of what
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 39/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 39 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Mr. Jumblatt said and the questioning on that?
2 While you're looking for that, I am just going to read onto the
3 record those two lines so we have the context. That is, while you're
4 finding Mr. Jumblatt's passage for us. Thank you, Mr. Korkmaz.
5 It's at paragraph 46 your statement, and I'm just reading onto
6 the record. It says -- that's your statement of the 4th of August, 2010,
7 which you signed on the 11th of August, 2010. Paragraph 46:
8 "In 2004, Rafik Hariri visited Damascus several times. Two
9 separate occasions were very significant. The first one he visited
10 President Al-Assad, who called in several army officers and scolded him
11 in front of them. During the second meeting, he scolded him again and
12 threatened to 'break Lebanon over his head.'"
13 Mr. Korkmaz.
14 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] So, Mr. President, this statement
15 provided by Mr. Jumblatt before your Chamber was made on the 7th of May,
16 2015, during his testimony, and it is transcript 149, page 67,
17 paragraph 2. And I shall read in English.
18 [In English] "If Chirac wants me out of Lebanon, I will break
19 Lebanon."
20 [Interpretation] And to the question put to him once again in
21 English.
22 [In English] "Yes, I confirm that. Absolutely."
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Thank you. You were putting to
24 Mr. Jumblatt something he'd said in a statement and asked him to confirm
25 in evidence if it was correct. Just remind me, though -- and he did.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 40/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 40 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Did the Prosecutor ask him about that same conversation earlier in his
2 testimony? Because I seem to have a recollection that Mr. Cameron also
3 asked Mr. Jumblatt about that, but I would have to go back and read it to
4 refresh my memory.
5 Can either of you, Mr. Korkmaz or Mr. Cameron, help me with that?
6 MR. CAMERON: Well, I did ask Mr. Jumblatt about that
7 conversation at some length, and I'll endeavour to find the passage for
8 you.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. Thank you.
10 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So if I understood what you said correctly, Prime Minister, you
12 confirm your version and not that of Mr. Jumblatt; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Very well. Now, Mr. Siniora, I would like to have brought up on
15 your screen a written recording of a quadripartite conversation between
16 Mr. Mehlis, the head of the international investigation, Mr. Merhi, Madam
17 Hariri, and yourself. This is a four-way conversation dated the 14th of
18 January, 2006, bearing reference number ERN 312972, and this is the
19 relevant page. The document bears the reference number 312954-312979.
20 And our redacted version is on the list at number 3.
21 Do you have that document?
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, the document is of -- it's a
23 26-page document. Which parts do you -- which pages do you want
24 Mr. Siniora to look at? Has he had a chance to refresh his memory as to
25 this conversation he had in -- on the 14th of January, 2006?
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 41/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 41 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I have already provided the ERN
2 number for the relevant page; that is, ERN 312972.
3 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Could you give us the queue, please?
4 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] So in the redacted version, that is
5 number 3.
6 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you.
7 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] And at the middle of this page --
8 you're welcome, ma'am.
9 Q. And in the middle of the page, you state to Mr. Detlev Mehlis in
10 the presence of Mr. Berri and Madam Hariri, that is the brother [as
11 interpreted] of Mr. Rafik Hariri, and I'm going to read it to you in
12 English, as follows:
13 [In English] "It was a session, only the three of us and ..."
14 [Interpretation] And I would specify here that you, of course,
15 were referring to the meeting that you had in Faqra in the presence of
16 Mr. Bassel Fuleihan, where Mr. Hariri, Mr. Fuleihan, and yourself were
17 present. And you say, and I continue, I apologize:
18 [In English] "It was a session, only the three of us and he said
19 very clearly that 'I had been threatened by Bashar,' to me. Now I am not
20 telling this person said that to that ... this is directly to me 'I have
21 been threatened by Bashar.' And he said: 'I will break the country if
22 my word is going to be broken in Lebanon.'"
23 [Interpretation] So in this statement that you make to Detlev
24 Mehlis on the 14th of January, 2006, you do not at all say that Bashar
25 Al-Assad allegedly said that he was going to destroy Lebanon or break it
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 42/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 42 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 over Mr. Hariri's head. So my question to you is: Why did you go on to
2 add, on the 4th of August, 2010, "over your head"?
3 A. Prime Minister Hariri used all of these expressions when he told
4 me what had happened: He said that he will break Lebanon and he would
5 break Lebanon over my head, and he would break Lebanon if his word was
6 not the last word in Lebanon and if he did not have the final say. He
7 used all of these expressions.
8 Q. Prime Minister, my question is a simple one. On the 14th of
9 January, 2006, you state that the Bashar Al-Assad said that he would
10 destroy Lebanon, and you did not at the time, when you made that
11 statement on the 14th of January, 2006, you did not say that it was an
12 expression that he said specifically "I will break Lebanon over your
13 head." The phrase, the words "over your head" were something that you
14 added in your statement on the 4th of August, 2010, four years after your
15 initial statement.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can I just -- Mr. Korkmaz, before you go on
17 and before you answer that, Mr. Siniora, just for accuracy as to the
18 nature of the document we're talking about.
19 Mr. Cameron, I take it there is no reason for not saying who the
20 people in the conversation were? It's a four-way -- it's a five-way
21 conversation?
22 MR. CAMERON: Yes, I think that's fair enough.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. It's a document entitled
24 "Transcript of recorded conversation on Saturday, 14th of January, 2006,
25 1123 to 1319." Residence of the Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora,
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 43/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 43 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Beirut, Lebanon. Persons present: The Prime Minister, Mr. Siniora; the
2 Speaker of the Parliament, Mr. Nabih Berri; the parliamentary delegate
3 Ms. Bahia Hariri; UNIIIC Commissioner Detlev Mehlis; Special Assistant to
4 the Commissioner, who is an interpreter; and an investigator. It says:
5 "All conversations by Speaker Nabih Berri and Mrs. Hariri and
6 conducted in Arabic are translated to English except where indicated by
7 the words '/English/' in the text. All the others use the English
8 language."
9 That is, Mr. Siniora and Mr. Mehlis. And the interpreter and the
10 investigator are using English but Mr. Siniora is speaking in English.
11 I just want to make that quite clear because when you said -
12 maybe it's the translation - a few times, Mr. Korkmaz, that it was a
13 statement, it's actually a conversation. It appears to be a fairly out
14 of the ordinary way of -- unusual way of conducting an investigation, to
15 have a chat between people in this manner, but there you go. It's been
16 taped and transcribed.
17 So bearing that in mind, that it was a conversation between you
18 and Mr. Mehlis, his interpreter, an investigator, Mrs. Hariri, and
19 Mr. Berri, can you just answer Mr. Korkmaz's question which is: Why did
20 you not use the words "over your head" in that conversation with those
21 people in January 2006, but four years -- four-and-a-half years later you
22 put those words in a statement you made to the investigators in August
23 2010?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like here to repeat very
25 clearly that all of these expressions were used by Prime Minister Hariri:
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 44/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 44 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 That he will break Lebanon, that he will break Lebanon over the head of
2 Hariri, and he will break Lebanon if his words, his wishes, are not
3 implemented in Lebanon. All of these expressions he used.
4 Why weren't they mentioned in the transcript? I don't know.
5 Maybe this is -- I don't know if this is a correct transcript. Perhaps
6 what was mentioned was not written down literally, verbatim, but I repeat
7 and reiterate: He used and mentioned all of these expressions verbatim.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Is there any significance in your mind
9 between one or the other; that is, he will break Lebanon or he will break
10 Lebanon over the head of Hariri? Is there any difference or to you do
11 they mean the same thing?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me to clarify one thing,
13 Your Honour. This expression, "I shall break over your head," this
14 expression is used between two people who are fighting, who are in
15 disagreement, and one of them wants to give the impression that he is
16 severe, he is harsh, and he uses the term "I will break it over your
17 head." I think that President Assad used this expression because Prime
18 Minister Hariri had repeatedly mentioned it to me. He repeatedly told me
19 that he -- that Assad told him: "I shall break Lebanon, I shall break
20 Lebanon over your head."
21 MR. CAMERON: If it assists you, I could draw your attention
22 briefly to two passages. They are not the only passages, but two
23 passages from the examination-in-chief of Mr. Jumblatt which occurred on
24 May the 4th. If I may sit down so that I can read the transcript. The
25 first appears at page 80, at lines 12 to 17. And the -- Mr. Jumblatt
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 45/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 45 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 says the following:
2 "He said that Bashar Al-Assad told him, 'Lahoud is me and I am
3 Lahoud. I want you to extend. And if Chirac wants to get me out of
4 Lebanon, I will break Lebanon, I will destroy Lebanon.'"
5 But then a little later in response to a question posed by Judge
6 Akoum, which appears at page 89, beginning at line 8 through to lines 23,
7 the witness responded in the following way:
8 "But he," i.e. the Prime Minister, "was very clear when he said
9 to Rafik Hariri that if Chirac" -- sorry, "he" meaning President Assad,
10 "was very clear that when he said to Rafik Hariri that if Chirac, meaning
11 your friend, Rafik Hariri, so if Chirac wants me to leave Lebanon, to
12 withdraw Lebanon, I shall break Lebanon over your head."
13 So that was Mr. Jumblatt's testimony as well.
14 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] I also wanted to ask you whether
15 he also mentioned President Chirac when he used to convey to you these
16 expressions?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not hear anything about
18 President Chirac in this context.
19 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Did he tell you what -- or how he
20 interpreted this exchange? Did you discuss with Prime Minister Hariri
21 his interpretation of this expression?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But for me this meant that all
23 options are on the table to implement this threat.
24 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Was it the first time that he'd
25 took these threats seriously, very seriously?
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 46/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 46 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, to have a president
2 of the republic, of a certain country addressing the prime minister of
3 another country with these words in such a way, this is something that is
4 not only a matter of surprise, it is something very serious. Having
5 these words said to Mr. Hariri in person in his own presence, this is a
6 serious threat. This is something very serious, very dangerous, and I am
7 sure that it was of concern to him.
8 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Interpretation] Had you ever heard previously
9 similar threats in the previous years?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, now we've established that
12 Mr. Jumblatt -- or established -- or been reminded that Mr. Jumblatt and
13 Mr. Siniora have said the same thing about breaking Lebanon over the
14 head, can we move on from this topic?
15 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Not quite yet, Your Honour.
16 Mr. Jumblatt, when I cross-examined him, he actually denied that he had
17 used the expression "to break over your head." He said, "I will break
18 Lebanon," and when I put the question to him, he said, "Yes, absolutely."
19 That's what Mr. Jumblatt said in his answer. So I am questioning
20 Mr. Siniora --
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Is that a submission about contradictions
22 between Mr. Jumblatt's testimony or what is it? We've just asked you to
23 move on. Do you have something else you want to ask Mr. Siniora on this
24 topic?
25 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. I haven't
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 47/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 47 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 finished my line of questioning in that regard.
2 Q. If I've understood the witness's evidence, the fact of using "I
3 will break Lebanon over your head" for you, Mr. Siniora, this is a
4 physical threat directed against Mr. Hariri. Is that true?
5 A. Of course.
6 Q. So you are saying that it's a physical threat, a threat of
7 physical violence. Right. So staying with this statement for the time
8 being, I'd just like to ask you the following. I'd like to direct you to
9 page 20, page 20 with regard to this conversation with Detlev Mehlis,
10 312973, that's the ERN range. And at the question that was put to you by
11 Detlev Mehlis in English:
12 [In English] "Was he also afraid for himself?
13 Prime Minister Hariri?"
14 [Interpretation] And you answer:
15 [In English] "At that time, I mean the idea of assassinating him
16 in general did not come across although there was always certain
17 precautions that led everybody to think that he was subject to the
18 possibility of the assassination. There was a lot of threats that took
19 place over the last 12 years. Since he became Prime Minister threats
20 were made, several attempts by different groupings were made against
21 Rafik Hariri but at that time the idea was more of a threat against the
22 country, against the accomplishments that were made by the country."
23 [Interpretation] So, Prime Minister, you are confirming here in
24 your statement that these are threats directed against the country, what
25 had been done by the country. And you're not making any reference to
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 48/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 48 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 physical threat against Mr. Hariri's person. What can you tell me about
2 that, then?
3 A. Allow me to say that you are taking parts of this long sentence.
4 You took a short part of this long paragraph and you relied on it. Go
5 back to the whole context. There was a possibility of an assassination.
6 It is mentioned in the statement in this paragraph. Why don't you refer
7 to it?
8 Yes, Prime Minister Hariri was threatened. Yes, the
9 accomplishments that he made for the sake of his country were threatened.
10 All this is true. You are taking a part of what I said and you are
11 referring to it exclusively.
12 Q. Prime Minister, I am not making any distinction. I'm not -- I
13 mean, I quoted the entirety of your response. And all I'm seeking to
14 elicit from you, I don't think you would contradict this, that in your
15 comments, in your conversation with Detlev Mehlis in 2006, the 14th of
16 January, 2006, to be precise, in any shape or form there was never the
17 expression "I will break Lebanon over your head." And you yourself would
18 confirm that by these comments because you are saying that the threats
19 went against the country, "I would break Lebanon," and not "your head."
20 So for me it's not a threat against Mr. Hariri's person, and this is born
21 out by your comments and hence my question: Why did you add in August
22 2010 in your statement "over your head"?
23 A. And in the first paragraph that you had mentioned, there was an
24 expression "was more than a threat." It doesn't mean that the
25 possibility of assassinating him was ruled out. On the contrary, the
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 49/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 49 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 terms used were "was more than a threat."
2 Second, let me reiterate once again that Prime Minister Hariri
3 used all these expressions interchangeably. Why were they not mentioned
4 in this document? I have constantly used these expressions
5 interchangeably: "I will break Lebanon," "I will break Lebanon over the
6 head of Mr. Hariri," "I will break Lebanon if my wishes in Lebanon are
7 not implemented." I have used all these expressions interchangeably and
8 I stick to what I said.
9 Q. Mr. Prime Minister, but this is contradicted by your own
10 interpretation of this threat in your -- the latest declarations that I
11 just read out, you say:
12 [In English] "... at that time the idea was more of a threat
13 against the country, against the accomplishments that were made by the
14 country."
15 [Interpretation] So there were no threats against the person.
16 There was threats of economic sanctions or what have you, but anything
17 but physical violence, you would agree with me on that? You don't
18 actually say "over your head," your head, over Mr. Hariri's head? That's
19 never mentioned.
20 A. Dear counsel, if you look at this text, you will see that there
21 were threats made against the country, yes, we were facing threats as a
22 country. And the tense used is in the past, "was." But we have to read
23 this statement in its totality. The new development was the threat that
24 was made to him during that meeting with President Assad, when he used
25 this expression. Prior to this threat, the accomplishments were
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 50/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 50 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 threatened, yes. And from time to time, we used to witness some clashes,
2 events, in order to undermine the accomplishments of Lebanon and the
3 accomplishments made by Mr. Hariri in Lebanon.
4 The new development was that meeting between Hariri and Assad
5 where Assad said I will -- said to Hariri in his face: "I will break
6 Lebanon over your head." This is what I want to insist upon.
7 MR. CAMERON: Mr. Korkmaz has a number of times said that he has
8 read the entirety of the relevant passages to the witness and asked him
9 to comment on that. The witness has asked for a larger context. And, in
10 fact, in the previous paragraph there is a highly relevant passage which
11 should, in all fairness to the witness, be also put to him, wherein he
12 describes what happened, at ERN page 312972 at page 19 of the document.
13 Wherein the Prime Minister said:
14 "Bashar ... on the way back he called me and he asked me to meet
15 him at Faqra. This is a matter of two hours since he left Bashar. We
16 got together, he came to Beirut, he met with Jumblatt" --
17 I do apologize to all.
18 "He met with Jumblatt, he went to Faqra. I personally followed
19 him to," and unintelligible, "and then I took with me Bassel Fuleihan.
20 He was working with us. At that time I was not a minister. We had lunch
21 there. It was a session. Only the three of us. And he said very
22 clearly 'I had been threatened by Bashar,' to me."
23 That precedes the passage that Mr. Korkmaz put to the
24 Prime Minister and may inform why he phrased it in the subsequent passage
25 the way he did. And the two passages should be read in the totality of
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 51/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 51 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 their context.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Have you finished, Mr. Korkmaz? Or do you
3 want to give Mr. Siniora the entire transcript to give him a chance to
4 read it and familiarize himself with it and to find the relevant context
5 in the entirety of the 26-page document? Which is a transcript of a
6 conversation that went for just under an hour and a half.
7 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I just have a
8 final question in this regard.
9 Q. Mr. Nabih Berri was with you during that conversation. Would it
10 be true to say that Mr. Berri never mentioned that threat that was
11 allegedly proffered by Mr. Bashar Al-Assad against Mr. Hariri?
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Are you asking Mr. Siniora to rely on his
13 memory of the conversation that went for an hour and a half of nine and a
14 half years ago? You are? Okay.
15 Do you have any memory of that, Mr. Siniora, of what Mr. Berri
16 said in that meeting about whether -- in relation to a threat by
17 Mr. Al-Assad to Mr. Hariri in breaking Lebanon over the head or not?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember. Definitely
19 Hariri would have told Berri what happened, but this topic was not put to
20 Berri because in this document we cannot see whether Detlev Mehlis asked
21 Berri about this topic.
22 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Have you read the entire document,
23 Mr. Siniora?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This happened nine years ago.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Korkmaz, I assume you've scrutinized
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 52/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 52 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 this in great detail. Is it there or not? Anything about Mr. Berri
2 saying this? Yes, no?
3 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I didn't find hide nor
4 hair in this conversation of that. Mr. Nabih Berri never spoke about
5 that.
6 Very well. I'd like, of course, to have an exhibit number for
7 this item, with your leave, of the 14th of January, 2006.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: No objection from the Prosecution? I would
10 have thought there is some stuff in here you'd want to get in.
11 MR. CAMERON: What I rely upon is what comes out of the witness's
12 mouth. But to the extent that the -- it's capable of theoretically
13 providing a basis for the notion that he didn't say something at a
14 certain period of time, then its admissible.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have put a question
16 to the dear counsel. In this transcript, is there any question ...
17 Your Honour, I have asked whether in this document, in this
18 transcript we are looking at right now, does it contain a direct question
19 put by Investigator Detlev Mehlis to Speaker Berri in this context?
20 There are no clear, direct questions put to Speaker Berri in this context
21 so that we can rely or quote what Speaker Berri might have said in the
22 same context.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. The transcript of recorded
24 conversation on Saturday, the 14th of January, 2006, between Mr. Siniora,
25 Mr. Berri, Mrs. Hariri, Mr. Mehlis, the interpreter, and the
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 53/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 53 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 investigator, ERN 312954 to 312979, will be Exhibit 2D139.
2 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
3 Q. A final question which relates to Mr. Wissam El-Hassan. As you
4 know, this gentleman wasn't in Mr. Hariri's convoy on the day of the
5 bombing. I think that's something that couldn't be argued with.
6 A. Of course. Otherwise he would have died.
7 Q. Prime Minister, we're speaking before a Chamber. As I said
8 before, we need to verify the contents or certain areas of your
9 statements.
10 Second question, can you tell me what Mr. Wissam El-Hassan gave
11 by way of an alibi to justify his absence?
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: To who, Mr. Korkmaz? To Mr. Siniora or
13 something he heard?
14 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you remember the alibi provided by Mr. Wissam El-Hassan to
16 justify his absence? He made public statements. And did he also speak
17 to you to explain his absence?
18 A. I heard the reasons that prevented him from being part of the
19 convoy of Mr. Hariri on that day. I heard these reasons from many
20 persons from the Hariri family. However, I did not discuss anything
21 pertaining to this matter with late Wissam El-Hassan.
22 Q. Can you tell the Court what it was you heard from people close to
23 the Hariri family with regard to his absence? What were the reasons
24 provided?
25 A. That he was busy sitting for an exam.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 54/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 54 Cross-examination by Mr. Korkmaz (Continued)
1 Q. According to this information, in what circumstance? Did you
2 know the circumstances in which he was called to sit that examination?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Professor Yahya Rabih?
5 A. I have never heard of this name. I don't know this person.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Nothing further.
7 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Those are my questions.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: See how easy it was, Mr. Siniora.
9 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we did ask for --
10 well, about this document from the commission, 3108 -- 310884-310887.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Siniora, we just have to return for a
12 moment to the investigator's note of the 13th of October, 2005. That's
13 the four-page document of bullet points. Now, Mr. Korkmaz and the
14 Prosecutor are interested in whether this accurately reflects what you
15 told the investigator who interviewed you or spoke to you on the 11th of
16 October, 2005. If there is anything there which you contest in any way,
17 accuracy or the words used -- words used, whether it was a conclusion,
18 et cetera. So if you could just briefly go through it. You've already
19 mentioned the part on the first page relating to the first confrontation
20 between you and Mr. Lahoud in 1993 when you said the reason wasn't, as is
21 recorded, the clash -- the reason for the clash wasn't, as is recorded,
22 the discussion about the pension of army soldiers, but something else.
23 Are there any other parts of it which you can comment on?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Your Honour, on the first
25 page or maybe before that, let me say that these pages show that I was
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 55/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 55 Evidentiary Matters
1 asked about these issues. Many issues are correct. But some points are
2 not accurate, and I would like to highlight the things that I don't think
3 are very accurate.
4 First page, the use of the term "confrontation" and "clash" and
5 that I voted in the Parliament against that proposal, this is something
6 that is not correct. This is not correct. There was no clash. I had my
7 point of view as a minister of finance, and this is similar to the
8 relationship between the minister of finance and other ministers. This
9 does not mean confrontation or clash.
10 Second, I do not vote in the Parliament because back then I was
11 not a Member of Parliament. So I would like to remove these parts
12 because they are not accurate.
13 Second page, fifth line --
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'd just ask you to pause. I'm just going
15 to put a redacted copy of it on the screen which will tell you what not
16 to refer to. You can refer to it by bullet point number. But if there
17 is a name there, I'd just ask you to be careful.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, it appears that the only
20 redactions are to the names of the investigators. Is that the position?
21 MR. CAMERON: Yes. And there is the bottom of the page, which
22 also contains in the ...
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you. It's only the names of the
24 investigators. You can refer to anything else in the document publicly.
25 Thank you, Mr. Siniora.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 56/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 56 Evidentiary Matters
1 Now, we're on the second page.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] yes. I think that on the fifth
3 line of that page, the page 885, that ends with 885, there is an
4 expression [In English] "could not effort."
5 THE INTERPRETER: And the witness says it should be "could not
6 afford it."
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the same page again, the last
8 seven lines, the seven bottom lines, all of this is not accurate.
9 [In English] "After this incident, Hariri became a major threat for
10 Syria." This is not true and everything that was mentioned afterwards is
11 not accurate.
12 The seven bottom lines are not accurate, all of them.
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. So that's the part:
14 "After this incident, Hariri became a major threat for Syria."
15 Down to:
16 "And with the extension of President Elias Hrawi in 1995 the
17 situation for Hariri became even worse."
18 Are you saying you didn't say it or it's just factually not
19 accurate?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not accurate. It's not --
21 it's all confused, mixed up together, because here he's saying:
22 [In English] "And with the extension of President Elias Hrawi in 1995,
23 the situation for Mr. Hariri became even worse." [Interpretation] This
24 is not completely true. There's a lot confusion. No, it's not because
25 of Elias Hrawi. It was because of Lahoud it became worse. So it's not
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 57/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 57 Evidentiary Matters
1 because of Hrawi. So all of this is not accurate. It's not very true.
2 On the page that ends with 886, the second line: [In English] "...
3 fighting for the extension of Mr. Hrawi," [Interpretation] again this is
4 not true.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The witness uses the word "supporting" in
6 English.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Supporting the extension, yes.
8 Towards the middle of the page, it mentions that Lahoud appointed
9 Mr. Salim El-Hoss and Mr. Siniora became a minister of finance. I was
10 not minister of finance in the government of Mr. Hoss. I became again a
11 minister of finance during the government of Mr. Hariri in the year 2000.
12 So again all of this paragraph is incorrect.
13 On the page that ends with 87. In the sixth line from the
14 bottom, so the final six lines, they use the word [In English] "Horror."
15 [Interpretation] Again this is inaccurate. [In English] The word
16 "horror."
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What do you think you said that's been
18 misinterpreted --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Terror."
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We replace: "Mr. Hariri wanted to give a
21 chance to Lahoud, but from the first day of the extension the 'horror'
22 continued," we replace to say: "From the first day of the extension the
23 'terror' continued."
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, not really terror. Maybe
25 harassments, the hurdles, the obstacles. It's in that sense.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 58/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 58 Evidentiary Matters
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: But you -- you spoke to the investigator in
2 the English, I take it? Mr. Siniora?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Definitely, yes. Unless maybe at
4 the time he had an interpreter with him speaking in Arabic. Perhaps. I
5 don't remember specifically if this took place in English or in Arabic
6 with interpretation. I don't remember. I don't know. However, it's
7 impossible for me to use a word such as this one, "horror." Harassments
8 maybe, obstacles, hurdles.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Is that it for the document, Mr. --
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay, thank you.
12 All right. Mr. Cameron, on that basis I take it you're content
13 for it to be tendered, Mr. Siniora now having given his explanation for
14 what's correct and what's not?
15 MR. CAMERON: Well, no. I'm sorry if I had not made myself
16 clearer earlier.
17 The concept of introducing a witness's evidence by his oral
18 adoption of a statement, particularly a statement of this nature, when
19 it's been not -- it's not capable of being described as an accurate
20 statement of the witness, it's a formulation by an investigator, when the
21 witness is otherwise here, is not the best way for you to receive
22 evidence. The best way is for counsel to ask Mr. Siniora about the
23 passages in his statement. Now, if there is a contradiction between the
24 witness's oral testimony and the statement, then that's an occasion where
25 a statement is otherwise legitimately admissible because it has an
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 59/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 59 Evidentiary Matters
1 evidentiary purpose.
2 But for counsel to ask Mr. Siniora to adopt a statement without
3 taking him to specific passages is, in my respectful submission, not only
4 an inappropriate way to proceed but a dangerous way for counsel to
5 proceed because nobody really knows, and the witness doesn't have the
6 opportunity to adequately flesh out the points that are made within the
7 statement.
8 As I say, this is not his statement, and the Court has made that
9 point repeatedly with other statements of this nature. This is a
10 formulation, an encapsulation of something that Mr. Siniora said. It may
11 be that now he says: Well, it's accurate, but that in and of itself does
12 not represent a basis for its admission before you. The witness is here.
13 The admission of this kind of evidence should come orally out of his
14 mouth. But I accept that if you disagree with me and that the adoption
15 by Mr. Siniora in respect of those passages, I have nothing further to
16 say on the issue.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, the Chamber is of the view that
18 the witness has more or less adopted it. It may not be in a perfect form
19 but it is almost in the nature of a Rule 155 or 156 statement. In that
20 respect, the witness is here. He's more or less acknowledged and said
21 what is true and what isn't, what is accurate, what isn't, has corrected
22 parts of it, and is available for cross-examination by the Defence or
23 re-examination by the Prosecution, of course, so we will receive it into
24 evidence. And the document 310884-310887, entitled "Background
25 information on the Lebanese President Emile Lahoud and preparation of his
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 60/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 60 Evidentiary Matters
1 witness statement - investigator statement," it's investigator's notes,
2 dated the 13th of October, 2005, referring to a meeting between a UNIIIC
3 investigator and Mr. Fouad Siniora on the 11th of October, 2005, will be
4 Exhibit 2D140.
5 Mr. Khalil, did you have some questions? I'm told you did. Or
6 has Mr. Korkmaz completely covered the field for you?
7 I've just given you an exhibit number, Mr. Korkmaz. You should
8 be happy.
9 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I was listening to the
10 interpretation, which was interpreting into French that what Mr. Siniora
11 said on a number of items was not accurate. He used the term "precise."
12 I just wanted to point this out to you when people are looking through
13 the record at a later date. He said "precise."
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Which line in the transcript are you
15 referring to, precisely, Mr. Korkmaz?
16 MR. KORKMAZ: [Interpretation] I do not have the French version,
17 Mr. President. I only have the English version. This is an observation
18 I am making, and we can bring written corrections when we have access to
19 the French version of the transcript.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you.
21 Mr. Khalil, questions or not?
22 MR. KHALIL: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will be asking
23 one or two questions regarding the terminology that was used and the
24 threats that were made and that were said and uttered at the residence of
25 Prime Minister Hariri in Faqra.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 61/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 61 Cross-examination by Mr. Khalil
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Khalil:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Your Excellency, when you met with the late
3 Prime Minister Hariri in Faqra when he returned from his meeting with
4 President Assad and after he heard the threats, do you remember who was
5 present during that meeting, the meeting that you had with Mr. Hariri?
6 A. We were three people: Prime Minister Hariri, Dr. Bassel
7 Fuleihan, and myself.
8 Q. Do you remember that Minister Fares Boueiz came afterwards or
9 maybe he was present there before you, and he was at the time a candidate
10 for the presidency of the republic?
11 A. Before us? No. After us, maybe, but I don't know. I left. I
12 had left.
13 Q. My question to you is the following: Did -- at the time while
14 you were in Faqra, did Prime Minister Hariri tell you the four
15 expressions, the four following expressions at the same moment, at the
16 same time, did he give you these four expressions? The first expression
17 being: "I will break Lebanon"; the second, "I will break Lebanon over
18 your head"; the third expression, "I will break Lebanon over the head of
19 Chirac"; and the fourth expression, what you said to Detlev Mehlis in
20 2006, and I quote from English, [In English] "I will break the country,
21 if my word is going to be broken in Lebanon."
22 So my question to you is the following: Did he use these four
23 expressions? Did Prime Minister Hariri tell you all of these four
24 expressions during your meeting in Faqra?
25 A. As I already mentioned, all of these expressions were used with
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 62/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 62 Re-examination by Mr. Cameron
1 the exception, as far as I'm concerned -- as far as I'm concerned, I did
2 not hear from him anything related to President Chirac.
3 Q. Your Excellency, while you were meeting with him in Faqra on the
4 same day, did he use the following four expressions? Did he use all of
5 these expressions, and did he say them to you? Or did he mention them in
6 various meetings? Perhaps he changed the expression somewhat from one
7 meeting to the other regarding the threat.
8 A. During that meeting in Faqra, he used all of these expressions
9 with the exception for the expression regarding President Chirac.
10 Personally, I did not hear from him anything relating to
11 President Chirac.
12 MR. KHALIL: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. These were
13 all my questions.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you very much for your brevity and
15 being straight to the point, Mr. Khalil.
16 Mr. Cameron, re-examination?
17 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Cameron:
19 Q. During your cross-examination yesterday by Mr. Korkmaz on behalf
20 of Mr. Badreddine, you described in some measure your knowledge of the
21 Prime Minister's meetings with Secretary-General Nasrallah at various
22 points in time. One point in time was before the extension of
23 President Lahoud and the other was after you had decided that you were
24 going to leave the political realm to return to private practice or
25 private industry. My question is about the first period of time when you
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 63/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 63 Re-examination by Mr. Cameron
1 were still a minister in the Prime Minister's government, and you
2 mentioned that you had understood that the -- one of the purposes of the
3 Prime Minister's meeting with Secretary-General Nasrallah was to elicit
4 his support for a candidate other than Emile Lahoud.
5 My question of you is: Did you learn of that purpose from the
6 Prime Minister himself or from other sources?
7 A. As far as I can remember, Prime Minister Hariri and during one of
8 the visits he discussed with Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah the issue of the
9 elections and how to try to convince the Syrians of not extending and not
10 supporting the extension of President Lahoud. I do not remember more
11 than that. I don't remember anything else regarding this topic.
12 Q. My question is: In respect of that memory, do you recall whether
13 you learned that from the Prime Minister himself or from some other
14 source?
15 A. No, not from Prime Minister Hariri but from his entourage. From
16 our entourage. But to be precise, no, I did not learn that directly from
17 Prime Minister Hariri.
18 Q. All right. The second area I wanted to ask you about was in
19 respect of the budget, and I'm not going to be very long on this issue.
20 Mr. Young, on behalf of Mr. Sabra, had asked you about the budget during
21 the time that you were the finance minister. And in -- specifically in
22 respect of the Lebanese military. Do you recall generally those
23 questions posed to you by Mr. Young? And in fact Judge Re at some point.
24 A. Before this Tribunal? You're asking me about the questions that
25 were put to me before this Court regarding the budget of the Ministry of
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 64/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 64 Re-examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Defence and questions regarding the number of soldiers, staff, the
2 locations of army barracks, et cetera? Yes, I remember. What was the
3 question?
4 Q. My question is this: As the minister of finance, were there any
5 public funds that were accounted for within the Lebanese budget allocated
6 to Hezbollah in their role as the resistance?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And you had been careful, at least for a period of time, to
9 describe Hezbollah as a resistance and not as a militia. During that
10 period of time that they were a resistance, do you have any knowledge as
11 to the numbers or strength of their military capacity within Lebanon?
12 A. No, I did not have any direct information regarding the strength
13 of the Hezbollah forces, their weapons. No, I do not have any
14 information regarding this topic. Official information, that is.
15 Q. Were you ever asked, as minister of finance, to allocate any
16 funds to Hezbollah during the course of your career in that ministerial
17 post?
18 A. There were no specific amounts of money that were allocated
19 specifically to Hezbollah or to any other political party. There were no
20 specific allocations of that sort. There could be some aids or
21 assistance given through health organizations, through educational
22 institutions, but that's an entirely different matter.
23 Q. All right. This is my fault. I phrased the question badly and I
24 should have drawn your attention to -- there is a difference, is there
25 not, between the political aspect of Hezbollah as a political party and
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 65/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 65 Re-examination by Mr. Cameron
1 what you've termed "the resistance"? Is that fair to say?
2 A. Yes. There are institutions. Hezbollah has institutions in
3 Lebanon. They are establishments that benefit sometimes from amounts of
4 money that are allocated to them within the budget, such as health
5 institutions, educational institutions, social institutions, that benefit
6 from certain allocations from within the budget.
7 Q. And it would be common ground within the resistance, as you've
8 termed it, there would be a military component? That's implicit in many
9 of your answers; is that right?
10 A. Yes, implicitly.
11 Q. Was there ever any request made by anyone, during your tenure as
12 finance minister over the years, that public funds be allocated to the
13 military portion of the Hezbollah?
14 A. Not at all.
15 Q. And you became prime minister in July of 2005, and you described
16 your government in very careful terms, not as "ally" or an alliance but
17 as a coalition of four different groups: Your group, the Future group,
18 Mr. Jumblatt's group, Amal, and Hezbollah. Did I understand you
19 correctly?
20 A. The use of the word "quadripartite agreement" was used in the
21 context and it applied to these four parties when it came to the
22 elections. Regarding the formation of the government, that government
23 included also other parties, representatives from other parties. It
24 included representatives from the Lebanese Forces and the Lebanese
25 Phalange Party, the Kataeb, in addition to the four groups that you have
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 66/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 66 Re-examination by Mr. Cameron
1 cited.
2 Q. And this can properly be described as your government; is that
3 correct?
4 A. Yes, this is correct.
5 Q. And did you play a major role in the formation of those who
6 became part of your government?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did you yourself enter into negotiations with the various
9 leaders of each of the groups, from small to large?
10 A. Yes, I did participate myself, and I did receive some assistance
11 in that regard from Prime Minister Saad Hariri, who was at the time the
12 chair of the Future Movement.
13 Q. And who took the lead, if I may ask, in respect of your
14 negotiations with Hezbollah?
15 A. Both of us. Both of us did. Certainly, the biggest effort was
16 made by Prime Minister Saad Hariri.
17 Q. During those negotiations, were all aspects of Hezbollah part of
18 the negotiations? Or if there is a distinction between the political
19 aspect and the military aspect, was it the political aspect of Hezbollah?
20 A. The one who was negotiating with me was Hajj Hussein Khalil, he
21 is the aide -- the first aide to Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. I also met
22 during that period with Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah himself for that purpose.
23 I visited him at his residence in Dahyieh.
24 Q. And during those meetings, just to round it out, was there a
25 gentleman named Mustafa Nasser that accompanied you as a facilitator or
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 67/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 67 Questioned by the Court
1 not?
2 A. I remember that, yes, he did accompany me. He -- his role was
3 limited to arranging the meetings. Nothing more.
4 Q. Those are my questions.
5 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE LETTIERI: Which were the relationship between these
8 different souls of Hezbollah, the political and the military souls? Not
9 "sorts," "souls."
10 A. In fact, I have never met with any representatives of the
11 military wing. The ones I met in this context were either Mr. Hassan
12 Nasrallah or Hajj Hussein Khalil or MPs representing the Hezbollah in the
13 Parliament and namely Mr. Mohamed Fneish.
14 JUDGE LETTIERI: Did the military -- this means that did the
15 military parts of Hezbollah have a leader other than Hassan Nasrallah?
16 A. I do not have any idea about the military hierarchy for that
17 party. I did not meet any of them.
18 JUDGE LETTIERI: Do you know at least if these two parts spoke
19 each other or not?
20 A. I think that the Hezbollah as a party is highly centralized.
21 Accordingly, no wing or no part of Hezbollah would act without consulting
22 the other. Of course, the military wing is very important, if not the
23 most prominent wing in the whole party.
24 JUDGE LETTIERI: Do you know, yes or no, if this military wing
25 was able to act regardless of the guidelines of the political leadership?
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 68/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 68 Procedural Matters
1 A. I'm not in a position that allows me to or enables me to issue
2 statements in this regard.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. That completes your testimony,
4 as promised, and before lunch.
5 So thank you very much, Mr. Siniora, and especially for returning
6 to the Netherlands to complete your testimony over the last two days. So
7 we wish you bon voyage and a safe trip back to Lebanon. And thank you
8 again.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you allow me to
10 mention some terms. It is true that I found it difficult to travel twice
11 to the Netherlands, but I hope that this was useful. I would like to
12 seize this opportunity to express to you, honourable President,
13 honourable Judges, all my appreciation, the appreciation of the majority
14 of Lebanese, to the important role you are undertaking and fulfilling in
15 prosecuting the crime of the century, the crime against targeting
16 Prime Minister Hariri and the other people, in addition to the crimes
17 that followed and preceded that crime. We would appreciate your efforts,
18 your follow-up, your determination in order to achieve justice and to
19 bring the criminals to trial.
20 Let me say once again that this is also an opportunity to those
21 who were the architects of this Tribunal, who masterminded the creation
22 of this Tribunal that is tasked with uncovering the truth. Later on, the
23 position calling for the creation of such a Tribunal was a rightful
24 position. We appreciate your efforts to uncover the truth and to put an
25 end to impunity, especially after what we have seen in terms of the very
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 69/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Fouad Siniora –PRH108 (Resumed) (Open Session) Page 69 Procedural Matters
1 reduced judgements in a case whereby the perpetrator was caught
2 red-handed in tapes and recorded, and I refer here to the crime
3 perpetrated by former minister Michel Samaha.
4 That's why I would like to extend my appreciation and thanks to
5 the Prosecutor, to Mr. Cameron, and also to the Defence counsel for their
6 efforts. Of course, they are assigned to this task, to defend the
7 interests of the accused.
8 I would like also to thank all those who took part in this major
9 accomplishment and achievement; that is, to create the Special Tribunal
10 for Lebanon. I would also like to thank you for giving me the
11 opportunity to tell you about the truth, the truth that I have witnessed,
12 that I have lived, gone through, and also to mention once again the role
13 of late Prime Minister Rafik Hariri in defending Lebanon's independence
14 and freedom. And what he has done throughout the years to achieve this
15 task. He had sacrificed himself. He is the unprivileged martyr. He
16 went through all this for the sake of defending's Lebanon's sovereignty,
17 independence, and freedom, and the development of Lebanon.
18 Once again, Your Honour, I would like to express to you my
19 deepest gratitude for this role and for your role in the future, and I
20 hope that you will, with God's help, be able to uncover the truth behind
21 the perpetrators of this crime in order to put an end to this horrible
22 episode of crimes that Lebanon has been going through in terms of
23 political assassinations, assassinations, and threat against Lebanon's
24 stability.
25 Thank you very much.
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic. 20150528_STL-11-01_T_T155_OFF_PUB_EN 70/70
PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 70
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you, Mr. Siniora.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Now, Mr. Cameron, we understood that you had
4 some witness statements that you could read onto the -- or summaries you
5 could read onto the record? Is that correct or not? Is it statements or
6 further evidence?
7 MR. CAMERON: It's further evidence pursuant to Rule 154, a
8 continuation. It could be adjusted in terms of time. We're quite
9 flexible. But that's what the evidence would be, should you choose to
10 receive it after, you know, what's otherwise a long day.
11 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Next week's witnesses, we're starting --
14 we'll be hearing evidence -- or witnesses on Tuesday, the 2nd of June,
15 for the four days next week. What can you tell us about that,
16 Mr. Cameron?
17 MR. CAMERON: All three witnesses are subject to protective
18 measures. Two will appear in person, the first two. They were both
19 members of the convoy on the day. And the third witness relates to the
20 purchase and sale of the Mitsubishi van.
21 As I say, the first two witnesses will be present here. And as a
22 result of your most recent ruling, the third witness by video-link.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: The court's adjourned.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.41 p.m. 25
Thursday, 28 May 2015 STL-11-01 Interpretation serves to facilitate communication. Only the original speech is authentic.