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COVID and Capitalism: a Conversation A RETHINKING Pandemic and MARXISM the Crisis of Conjuncture of Insurrection Dossier Capitalism that we have 5 percent of the people of the world and 30 percent of the deaths from corona. So let me go through just some of them. Absolutely, the inequality in this country means that, yes, we VINCENT LYON-CALLO: When I first sat in your are one of the wealthiest countries in the world, class focused on many Marxisms, more than but what has to be added is that we are one of three decades ago, and began to see the rich tap- the most unequal, in terms of the distribution estry of Marxist scholarship, I could not imagine of wealth and income, of the so-called industri- we would be here today so many years later dis- alized nations. That inequality condemns large cussing a global pandemic. What an interesting numbers of people, almost all of whom live time this has become and at the low end of the eco- what a privilege it is to talk nomic pyramid. They have with you again today. bad diets, they have over- COVID and crowded housing, they have Let’s start off with an easy inadequate health care, question: On your Eco- Capitalism: and they often have unsafe nomic Update on June 8th, A Conversation working conditions. We all 2020, (Wolff 2020c) you know what the story is, so discuss a very practical with Richard Wolff it should not be surprising question: Why is it that the that even though the United U.S., with 5 percent of the States is rich, its extreme world’s population, has inequality makes the poor 30 percent of the world’s very vulnerable to any dis- deaths from COVID-19 ease, particularly one that thus far, and what might passes through infection. be the Socialist alterna- Vincent Lyon-Callo tive? This leads to other But I would actually like to questions, such as: How focus on a different kind of can that be, despite the fact explanation, which will apply not only to the that the U.S. also is one of the world’s wealthiest United States but also to other countries who countries? Why is it that so many Americans are have had bad experiences with this virus. I am getting so sick and dying? Might it have some- thinking of Italy. Here is the argument that I thing to do with the vast inequalities that existed would like to advance. What do you need to do? in the U.S. prior to COVID-19 even arriving? What two things that are crucial? To prepare your population for a dangerous virus and to RICHARD WOLFF: As with all good questions, manage the virus once it enters your community. there are many factors that play in. You might So how do you prepare? You prepare by having even say that it is complexly overdetermined on hand, in adequate numbers and adequately 54 A RETHINKING Pandemic and MARXISM the Crisis of Conjuncture of Insurrection Dossier Capitalism stockpiled, all the necessary equipment. That is compensate.” You would buy all the supplies what preparation means. So you have produced, and the test kits you might need for a disease stockpiled, and distributed ventilators, masks, that enters our country, and you would have it gloves, ICU units in hospitals, beds, and trained available. You would take the necessary steps at personnel. You do not have to be a trained epi- the government’s expense. demiologist to know that dangerous viruses have been with the human race from day one. Why did the government of the United States A horrible one in 1918 killed 700,000 people in not do that? The answer is that it has long ago the United States. In recent years, we have had been captured by an ideology that runs roughly SARS and Ebola and a dozen others which are as follows: If it is not privately profitable to do well-known and well documented. There is no something, then it should not be done. So the excuse for not being prepared. The cost of such government of the United States did not do a preparation is a small fraction of the amount of what it could have done. Through the failure wealth we have already lost in the United States of the private sector and the complicit failure of from not being prepared. There is no efficiency the public sector, we were not prepared. That’s argument. Indeed, any efficiency argument three-quarters of the answer to why we have suf- would go the other way. So, then, why? Well, the fered so badly from coronavirus. answer is capitalism. Let me drive the point home one more step. It is not profitable for companies to produce a Might there be an example I could point to mask or a bed or a glove. To produce these things, where the government of the United States did to store them in some warehouse, let alone to do exactly what I just said? The answer is yes. stockpile them all over the country, waiting who The military. It is not profitable to make a missile knows how many months for the next virus to or a rocket and store it. So the government comes show up, is not profitable. The risk is enormous. in and buys all that stuff as fast as it comes off the You are just not going to do it as a capitalist. You assembly line and pays to store it and distributes can find more profitable, less risky investments it and trains the people to use it. The rationale elsewhere. How do we know that? Because that is national security. But the notion of national is what they did. They did not make the stuff, security for health reasons doesn’t work. That and we were not prepared. leads me to the final part of this. Why doesn’t it? Why hasn’t the medical-industrial complex— In that situation, you could have the government the four industries which monopolize the med- come in and say the following: “Private capital- ical industry in this country; doctors, hospitals, ism stinks at being prepared for viruses; it is an medical insurance companies, and the drug and unreliable engine for preparation, so we the gov- device makers—why haven’t they been smart ernment will be the offsetter; we will take on the enough to develop an ideology that says the gov- risk and we will take on the expense because ernment should come in? The answer is obvi- private capitalism is a failure here and we must ous. If you brought the government in to make 55 A RETHINKING Pandemic and MARXISM the Crisis of Conjuncture of Insurrection Dossier Capitalism us secure for a future, well, then why aren’t you Republicans. The Republicans have to pretend bringing the government in to make us secure there is no issue, they are going to get everyone right now with Medicaid for all or a single payer back to work, we’re going to get everything back or any of the other plans? That’s too ideolog- to normal. Normal is the only hope they have ically dangerous for them. So they can’t do for to make this horrible collapse, both healthwise themselves what they enviously watch the mil- and employmentwise, go away. For me, those are itary-industrial complex do brilliantly for itself. the key variables coming together to make the American experience so, so awful. Then there is the failure to manage it. Once you blow the preparation. Once you have awareness Last point: Last week there was a Time magazine that you are going to suffer, you’re going to lose article prepared by two physicians in the United a lot of people, you’re going to have millions of States. The article was wonderful because it people get sick. Then the political apparatus begins by saying that, here in the United States, kicks in. Whoever is in power has to minimize the disease has infected 340 people per mil- the damage or the party lion. In China it was 5 peo- or the leader will suffer If you brought the government ple per million. No matter because it is on their watch in to make us secure for a future, what the fudging of num- when everyone gets sick. well, then why aren’t you bring- bers—on both sides— So you need a government ing the government in to make us may have been, with these that doesn’t want to test secure right now with Medicaid for orders of magnitude, there people because it doesn’t all or a single payer or any of the is no excuse. The rest of want public awareness. We the Time magazine article other plans? That’s too ideological- have, if my numbers are was about the utter failure ly dangerous for them. correct, less than 5 percent of the United States. Not of people who have been just in relation to China, tested. That means we don’t even know where but they list about twenty other countries, all of the disease is, who has it, who is symptomatic, whom have way better numbers than the United who is not symptomatic. All of the key questions, States. Those include Australia, New Zealand, we don’t have an answer … We also have 20 to 30 South Korea, not just Vietnam and Cuba, who million people who are unemployed and could have very good numbers. My last point is that, be given the training to test people.
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