CASSEhMY.]

The Hon. A. F. GRIFFTH: I think the suggestion is a worth-while one and it will ifpidatur Aintxtg bring the north into line with the rest of the State. I1cannot see any objection to Wednesday, the 16th September, 1964 it and I support the amendment. CONTENTS Amendment put and passed. Pg Clause, as amended, put and passed. BILLS- Agricultural Products Act Amendment Clauses 26 to 39 put and passed. Bill-Returned -0... 74 Title put and passed. Alsatian Dog Act Amendment BUi-Re- Bill reported with an amendment. turned ...... 974 Anzac Day Act Amendment Bill-Re- turned...... 974 ADMINISTRATION ACT Bush Fires Act Amendment Bill- AMENDMENT BILL Intro. ; Ir...... 970 In Committee Cancer Council of Western Australia Act Amendment Bill-Report .-. 970 The Chairman of Committees (The Hon. Chiropractors Bill-Sr...... 970 N. E. Baxter) in the Chair;. The Hon. A. F. Country Areas Water Supply Act Amend- Griffith (Minister for Justice) in charge ment Bill- of the Bill. Intro. ; Ir...... 970 Clauses 1 to 11 put and passed. Country Towns Sewerage Act Amendment Bill- Clause 12: Section 140 amended- Intro. ; Ir...... 970 Evidence Act Amendment Bill-3r. 970 The Hon. F. J. S. WISE: I am wonder- Justices Act Amendment Bill-Sr. .. 970 ing if the Minister and his officers are Local Courts Act Amendment Bill-Sr... 970 content that the Provisions of this clause Milk Act Amendment Bill-Returned ... 974 will mean that the whole of the pro- Mining Act Amendment Bill (No. 2)- ceedings have been satisfied. Is it likely Receipt ; Ir ...... 974 there would be anything else outstanding National Trust of Australia (W.A.) Bil- at the time the provision for the grant- Intro. ; 1r. .. 970 ing of probate or administration had been Parks and Reserves Act Amendment Bill- sealed by the court: or would all require- Intro. ; Ir...... 970 ments have been cleared at that point? Presbyterian Church Acts Amendment The Hon. A. F. GRIFFTH: The notes Billr. ....-. 970 I have in regard to clause 12 state that Sale of Liquor and Tobacco Act Amend- ment Bill-Sr. . ...- 970 the proposals in the clause provide for the issue under section 140 of office copy grants MEMBERS' SPEECHES: QUOTATIONS without annexure of copies of relevant FROM UNCORRECTED PROOFS- wills. Section 140 contains requirements Statement by Speaker . 969 concerning records of grants, filing pro- MOTIONS- cedures, and so forth, required to be main- Fire Brigades Act :Disallowance of tained by the master. The proposal Regulation 1O0A . .. 970 contained in clause 12 to enable the copy Milk Act: Disallowance of Amendments to of a grant of probate or administration Regulation 818 ...... - 974 to be issued under seal, with or without Swan River Reclamation : Suspension of the annexure of a copy of the will, if any, Work ...... 976 and issued as sufficient evidence of that QUESTIONS ON NOTICE- grant without further proof, has been Dairy Industry Committee of Enquiry: considered by the Chief Justice and the Adoption of Recommendations .... 96 Master of the Supreme Court, Who can see Education- no objections to it. Eastern Goldflelds High School When these administrative changes are Gymnasium Facilities...... 964 being made, the views of the Chief Jus- Oriental Languages :Teaching at tice, judges, or the Master of the Supreme High Schools...... 96 Court are, as far as possible, obtained. Electricity Supplies : State Electricity Commission- The Hon. F. J. S. Wise: I was concerned Electricity Supplies for Northern Towns 968 about where this thought originated, but I Power Line Route from Geraldion to am quite happy about it. Northampton...... 966 Purchase of Electric Power from Ger- Clause put and passed. aldton Town Council...... 968 Clause 12 put and passed. Floods- Title put and passed. Damage to Railways, Bridges, Cul- verts, and Abutments...... 988 Report Flooding at Harvey- Bill reported, without amendment, and Drainage of High School Grounds 965 the report adopted. Effect of Harvey River Diversion Scheme ...... 968 House adjourned at 5.58 p.mn. Weir Wail: Elimination of Danger ...... 965 rWednesday. 16 September, 1964.] 983

CONTENTS--continued TRAFFIC ROUTES FOR CITY page QUESTIONS ON NOTICE-continued Proposals and Alternatives Harbour, Fremantle : Presence of Sewage- ... .I Mr. FLETCHER asked the Minister type Bacteria in Water 964 2. for Works: Health-Sale of Poultry and Rabbits: .. What reasonable grounds justify Control by Health Department 967 (1) the expenditure of £8,000,000 to Land South of Mount Gibson Station: 967 provide facilities to handle traffic Survey ... .. 967 into, through, and around the Marketing of Onions Act: Objections to City of Perth when an assumed Proposed Amendments ...... 966 large percentage would prefer Pneumnoconlosls Committee : Publication alternative routes to avoid con- of Report ...... 968 gestion? Police: Motor Vehicles- (2) To cater for this percentage and Regrooving of Worn Tyres.... 967 anticipated increase in vehicles, Speed Limits and Braking Efficiency 965 will he recommend- Public Buildings at Kalgoorlie : Provision (a) building a bridge from Point of Water Cooling System 964 Walter to Point Resolution Railways- with portion of the £8,000,000 Fremantie Railway Bridge-Double mentioned in (1); Standard Gauge Tracks : Simul- (b) using the remainder for pro- taneous Use... .. 964 viding a less elaborate scheme Standard Gauge Railway :Closure of associated with the Narrows West Midland Subway ... .. 967 Bridge? Buperphosphat- Difference between Western Aus- Mr. WI-LD replied: tralian and Victorian Products.. 967 (1) The Mitchell Freeway Project is Establishment of Inland Works ..I 967 the first stage of the implementa- Swimming Pools: Number Subsidised by tion of the scheme for freeways Government and Location 968 embodied in the region plan which will ultimately require the expen- Theatre In Western Australia- diture of many millions of pounds Elizabethan Theatre Trust Represent- Because ative :Appointment of Professor spread over many years. Alexander...... 968 the City of Perth is the centre of .. 968 the region and of the system of Financial Assistance...... radial roads, the first need is to Traffic- Provide traffic capacity at the Railway Crossing Fund Account centre to which most traffic is Credits and Expenditure 964 directed- Traffic Routes for City Proposals and Alternatives .. 963 (2) (a) and (b) No. PNEUMOCONIOSIS COMMITTEE The SPEAKER (Mr. Hearman) took Publication of Report the Chair at 4.30 p.m., and read Prayers. 3. Mr. EVANS asked the Minister rep- resenting the Minister for Mines: QUESTIONS ON NOTICE (1) Is he now able to indicate when the report of the committee which ORIENTAL LANGUAGES inquired into pneumoconiosis will Teaching at High Schools be made available for public perusal? 1.Mr. DlUNN asked the Minister for (2) Would he please give an assur- Education: ance that this report will be made (1) What plans, if any, are envisaged public before his second reading to have oriental languages taught speech introducing the Govern- as normal subjects in high schools? ment promised Workers' Com- (2) If the answer is "nil," could this pensation Act Amendment Bill so matter be investigated with a as to afford ample opportunity to view to having it implemented at the persons most concerned. an early date? namely workers, within the mean- ing of the Workers' Compensation Mr. NALDER (for Mr. Lewis) replied: Act, to study the contents of the (1) None at present. amending Bill in the light of the contents of the committee re- (2) Japanese and Malay are taught port? as extracurricular subjects aftLer normal school hours in four high Mr. BOVELL rep~lied: schools, If the demand increases (1) and (2) The report was tabled in this will be expanded. both Houses today. [ASSEMBLY.]

EASTERN GOLDFIELDS HIGH Mr. COURT replied: SCHOOL (1) Installation has not yet been Gymnasium Facilities effected. 4. Mr. EVANS asked the Minister for (2) Yes. Two units will be Installed- Education: one on the ground floor and one on the first floor-before summer (1) Does he realise that Eastern Gold- commences. fields High School still lacks its own complete gynmnasium facili- ties? FREMANTLE RAILWAY BRIDGE (2) Does he not agree that a high Double Standard Gauge Tracks: school of this status, as a unit In Simultaneous Use the "centralised" scheme of edu- 6. Mr. TONKIN asked the Minister for cation on which our educational Railways: authorities pride themselves, should not suffer in departmental Will it be practicable for both set~s supplied facilities in comparison of standard gauge track on the with other units of comparable new Fremantle railway bridge to stature within the be used simultaneously with com- same scheme? plete safety, irrespective of the (3) If the answer to (2) is a quall- position of the two trains on the fled 'Yes," is the Education De- bridge when they are passing each partment policy in respect of im- other? provements to other existing high schools and the building of new Mr. COURT replied: high schools in the metropolitan Yes. and certain other country dis- tricts consistently shaped and FREMANTLE HARBOUR effected by this same qualifica- tion in the matter of providing Presence of Sewage-type Bacteria in gymnasium facilities? Water (4) What priority has the provision of 7. Mr. TONKIN asked the Minister for gymnasium facilities at Eastern Works: Ooldfields High School on the (1) Following the reported statement listed work (other than the pro- on the 23rd March last by the vision of essential classrooms) yet Public Health Commissioner that, to be executed by the department? "Water samples taken from the (5) Could he Please give an estimate harbour near the Frenmantle bridge when it could be reasonably ex- contained sewage-type bacteria" pected full gymnasium facilities did the Fremantle Harbour Trust will be provided at Eastern Gold- make its own investigations in fields High School? accordance with the reported stated intention of the trust as Mr. NALDER (for Mr. Lewis) replied: expressed by the acting manager? (1) Yes. (2) If "Yes," did the investigations (2) I agree that it should not suffer which were carried out by the by comparison. Harbour Trust confirm or refute (3) In regard to gymnasium facilities, the finding of the Public Health yes. Department on the presence of (4) No gymnasium facilities for sewage-type bacteria? Eastern Goldfields or any other Mr. WILD replied: high school are included in listed (1) Yes. Tests were carried out at work to be undertaken by the de- the request of the Fremantle partment. Harbour Trust by the Public (5) No. Health Department. (2) Traces of faecal bacillus coli were PUBLIC BUILDINGS AT KALGOORLIE found. 'The result of the tests Provision of Water Cooling System did not unduly perturb the Public Health.Department. 5. Mr. EVANS asked the Minister repre- senting the Minister for Justice: RAILWAY CROSSING FUND (1) Would he please advise if the ACCOUNT water cooling system approved for Credits and Expenditure installation in the K~algoorlie public building for the benefit 8. Mr. GRAHAM asked the Minister for of the public, court officials, and Transport: office personnel has been yet (I) What is the total amount that has effected? been credited to the Metropolitan 02) If not, will he undertake to have Area Railway Crossing Fund this Installation completed before Account each year since its estab- summer officially commences? lishment? [Wednesday, 16 September, 1964.] 965

(2) On what crossings have moneys Effect ol Harvey River Diversion from this fund been expended. Scheme and what was the amount in each (6) Has the Harvey River diversion ease? scheme created a flooding each (3) What sum is in the fund at the winter at Harvey? Present time? (17) If so, are proposals being de- veloped to overcome the flooding Mr. CRAIG replied: problem? (1) 1957-58 £21,850 Mr. WILD replied: 1958-59 £22,840 (1) Floods of the magnitude of the 1959-60 £30,758 recent one are very rare and no 1960 -6 1 £28,787 work on the Harvey Weir wall is 196 1-62 £28,274 1962-63 E36,418 considered necessary as with the 1963-64 actual level of overflow reached £47,570 there was a satisfactory factor of £216,297 safety. When the next dam is built im- (2) Moore Street (Boom mediately below the Harvey Weir Gates)...... £E23,660 it will incorporate the existing Lord Street (Boom wall. Gates)...... £ 24,405 (2) and (3) See (1). Jewell Street Crossing 1,748 (4) and (5) No. There is no serious Seventh Avenue Bridge, lack of adequate drainage at the Maylands...... 1,452 Harvey High School. Some Ashton Avenue Bridge, trouble has been experienced Claremont...... 2,883 with erosion of banks but now Kerr Street Bridge, that agreement has been reached Leederville ...... 2,313 to Rivervale Crossing ... 2,170 take water from the irrigation Welshpool Crossing I,1.. 888 channel,' measures are being taken William and Bleaufort St. to bind the area with grass. Bridges .. 2,...... 030 (6) No. Flooding only occurs in years Maintenance of Bridges 603 of severe winters. Spare Boom Gates Mech- (7) Last year a start was made on a anism...... 2,240 programme progressively to im- prove the carrying capacity of the 65,396 diversion channel. Supervision 4,605 MOTOR VEHICLES £70,001 Speed Limits and Braking Efficiency (3) Balance of fund as at the 31st 10. Mr. ROWBERRY asked the Minister August, 1964. £149,612. for Police: (1) What are the respective speed FLOODING AT HARVEY limits for the following vehicles in- Weir Wall: Elimination ol Danger (a) town, and (b) country- 9. Mr. HAWKE asked the Minister for 20 cwt., 2 tons, 3 tons, 4 tons, 5 Works: tons, 6 tons, 7 tons, 13 tons and (1) Are any Proposals being developed over? to eliminate the possible danger of (2) What are the respective stopping the collapse of the wall at the distances with brakes at required Harvey Weir? efficiency of the aforesaid vehicles at the following speeds- (2) If so, what form are such pro- posals likely to take? 10 mph., 15 m.p.h., 20 mph., 30 mph., 40 m.p.b., 50 mph., (3) When is work on any such pro- 60 m.ph. and over? posals likely to commence? Mr. CRAIG replied: Drainage of High School Grounds (1) Toarn country (4) Is it a fact that there is a serious Uip to a tons. .. 35 meph. Unlimited (but If twing trailer lack of adequate drainage on the or oaravail- Harvey High School grounds? maximum is 45 m.p.b.) (5) If so. what action has been taken Over 3 tons to 7 tons 35 m'ph. 40 m.p.h. over?7 townto 13tow .... 3O mph. 25 m.p.b. or is to be taken to provide better Over 13 tons to 20 tows 3m.p.h. SO ma.p.b. drainage? Over 20 tous. .. 25 mph. 30 m.m.. (ASSEMBLY.]

(2) The maximum stopping distances (2) If not was any other committee that will comply with the regula- appointed in accordance with re- tions are- commendation 21 of the report? (a) where weight of the vehicle Is under 50 cwt. (3) Could he advise what sections of Speed: 10 mph. 15 20 30 40 50 0 the report have been adopted and 7fl. 155t. 275t. Olin. 107ft. 1075t. 2405. what action has resulted? (b) wThere weight or the vehicle is 50 curt. and over. (4) Was any action taken in this State Speed : 10 mph. 15 20 30 40 50 60 to put into effect recommenda- tion 23 of the report? Snt. l~ft. 33ft. 75ft. 1345t. 203n5. 3005t. Mr. NALDER replied: STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION (1) to (4) As far as I ama aware, no Purchase of Electric Power from action has been taken on the re- Geraldton Town Council commendation of the Dairy In- dustry Committee of Enquiry 11. Mr. SEWELL asked the Minister for (1960). Any action is a matter Electricity: for the Commonwealth Govern- (1) What progress has been made by ment. the State Electricity Commission MARKETING in its negotiations with the OF ONIONS ACT Oeraldton Town Council for the Objections to Proposed Amendments purchase of electric power from its power station? 13. Mr. GRAHAM asked the Minister for Agriculture: Electricity Supplies for Northern (1) Has he received any objections Towns to the Onion Marketing Board's (2) What is the position in relation circular dealing with proposed to the supply of electric power amendments to the Marketing of by the State Electricity Commis- Onions Act? sion to the following areas:- (2) If so, from whom? Northampton Town, (3) Does he still maintain that no Narngulu, single viewpoint was expressed by Moonyoonooka, the board when its circular opens Waggrakine, with the words: "Hereunder this Olenfield, Board submits to You amend- Utakarra? ments it seeks to the Marketing of Onions Act, 1938, with its Power Line Route front Geraldton reasons for their necessity," and to Northampton when dealing specifically with (3) Along which route is it proposed section 4 (4) the board advocates to take the power lines from the its deletion giving as its reason Geraldton town boundary to the that its object had failed? town of Northampton? (4) Has he received protests regarding the proposal to delete section 4 Mr. NALDER replied: (4) of the Act? (1) Agreement has been reached. (5) If so, from what bodies? (2) Surveys are in Progress north- (6) Is he aware that on the 9th ward to Northampton. When September a meeting of onion Northampton is supplied with al- growers held at Spear-wood and ternating current, surveys to the attended by 90 Persons unani- other areas will be undertaken. mously voted against the nature (3) Via Chapman Valley. This was of the board's circular, also the announced by the Premier at the intention to Proceed with deletion Upper Chapman Valley Show last of section 4 (4) ? Saturday. Mr. NALER replied: DAIRY INDUSTRY COMMITTEE OF (1) Yes. ENQUIRY (2) The executive of the Market Gardeners' Association of W.A. Adoption ci Recommendations (Inc.). 12. Mr. KELLY asked the Minister for (3) 1 am satisfied that the referen- Agriculture: dum conducted by the State lec- toral Department fairly stated the (1) Could he advise if the Common- proposed amendments sought by wealth Government adopted the the board. recommendation contained in the report of the Dairy Industry Com- (4) Yes. mittee of Enquiry released in (5) The Market Gardeners' Associa- August, 1960, that a dairy de- tion of W.A. (Inc.). velopment council be established? (6) Yes. [Wednesday, 16 September, 1984.] 967

MOTOR VEHICLES Mr. ROSS HUTCHINSON replied: Regrooving of Worn Tyres (1) Yes. A medical officer or inspector may enter premises at any time 14. Mr. BURT asked the Minister for and inspect animals or food Police: offered or being prepared for sale (1) Are any regulations in force to for human consumption. prohibit or to control the practice (2) No. of regrooving worn tyres of motor vehicles? (3) Yes. (2) If not, does he not consider that LAND SOUTH OF MOUNT GIBSON some measures are necessary to STATION control the condition of tyres which are to be regrooved and Survey which, when completed, often 17. Mr. CORNELL asked the Minister for present a hazard to motorists, Lands: particularly on unsealed roads? (1) Is a survey of land, situated Mr. CRAIG replied: approximately south of Mount (1) No. Gibson Station and north of the (2) Yes. Some control is considered emu-proof fence currently being desirable and consideration is carried out or in contemplation? being given to the framing of a (2) If so, what is the area of land suitable draft regulation by the being, or to be, surveyed and the Australian Motor Vehicles Stan- purpose thereof? dards Committee. Mr. BOVELL replied: (1) No. The land in question is held STANDARD GAUGE RAILWAY by Mount Gibson Pastoral Com- Closure of West Midland Subway pany Pty. Ltd. as special leases expiring on the 31st March, 1969, 15. Mr. BRADY asked the Minister for and the 30th September, 1970. Railways: (2) Answered by (1). (1) Has any final decision been made regarding the closing of the sub- way, West Midland, for standard SUPERPHOSPHATE gauge purposes? Establishment of Inland Works (2) What is the decision in regard 18. Mr. CORNELL asked the Minister for to this matter? Agri culture: (3) Has the Town Planning Depart- (1) What is the optimum output that ment approved closure of the sub- is regarded as justifying the way to vehicular traffic? establishment of a superphosphate Mr. COURT replied: works in Western Australia, say, (1) Yes. The vehicular subway will 150 to 200 miles from the sea- be closed and a pedestrian under- board? Pass substituted in the same (2) What would be the estimated locality. A road overbridge will initial capital cost of establishing be built between West Midland a works capable of this capacity? and Helena Street. Midland. Mr. NAIJDER replied: (2) Answered by (1). (1) and (2) The capital costs of sea- (3) The Town Planning flepartment board fertiliser factories are about has no objection to the closure £20 per ton of annual capacity, of the subway provided a bridge i.e., about £1,200,000 for a 60,000 suitable for public use is pro- ton per annum factory. vided nearby. Difference between Western Australian SALE OF POULTRY AND RABBITS/ and Victorian Products Control by Health Department 19. Mr. CORNELL asked the Minister for Agriculture: 16. Mr. BRADY asked the Minister for Health: (1) Is there any material difference in the 23 per cent. superphosphate (1) Has the Health Department any manufactured in Western Aus- control over the sale of poultry, tralia as compared with the 22 per rabbits, etc.. sold for local con- cent. product manufactured in sumption? Victoria, or does the figure of 23 (2) Have they to be stamped fit for per cent. refer merely to registra- human consumption by any party tion requirements in this State? to the sale? (2) If a difference does exist as (3) Are poultry, rabbits, etc.. exported between the 23 per cent. and the certified fit for human consump- 22 per cent. superphosphates, tion? what would be the approximate (ASSEMBLY.]

price of the 22 per cent. product (5) Not known. (if it were manufactured) in (6) The State Government grant of Western Australia based on the £2,000 to the University for allo- current cost of the 23 per cent. cation to the Adult Education fertiliser? Board was made on the under- Mr. NALDER replied: standing that the trust would in- (1) and (2) The information asked crease its allotment for drama in for in this question is being sought, Western Australia to make it pos- and will be made available to the sible for the number of contract honourable member when received. players at the National Theatre to be extended. THEATRE IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA (7) The extent of assistance granted Elizabethan Theatre Trust by the trust to local theatre en- Representative: Appointment of deavours in other States is not Professor Alexander known. 20. Mr. CORNELL asked the Premier: SWEIIN1G POOLS (1) By whom was Professor Alexander Number Subsidised by Government and appointed to be the representative Location in this State of the Elizabethan Theatre Trust and to whom is he 21. Mr. DAVIES asked the Treasurer: responsible? (1) How many swimming pools has (2) What are Professor Alexander's the Government subsidised with qualifications to be the sole repre- construction over the past five sentative and arbiter of the trust years? in Western Australia? (2) Where are these swimming pools Financial Assistance located? (3) Have any organisations of which (3) In each case what has been- Professor Alexander is or was a (a) the amount of subsidy; member of the board or commit- (b) total cost of each pool con- tee of management received any structed? financial assistance from- Mr. BRAND replied: (a) Elizabethan Theatre Trust: (b) Government or local govern- (1) 19. ment grants? (2) and (3) (a) For construction of (4) If so, what are these organisa- pools-- I tions? Beverley ...10,000 (5) Have any organisations with Brockton ...9,879 which Professor Alexander is not Collie .. 6719 connected requested assistance Corrigin .. 10,000 from the trust? If so, what are Derby * . 11,359 these organisations and what Goomalling .. ...9,570 were the results of any approaches Kalamunda .. ...10,000 so made? Kellerberrin .. 9,240 (6) In respect of the grants of £2,000 Moorea .. 10,000 made by each of the Elizabethan Mullewa 10,000 Theatre Trust and the State Gov- Narembeen .. 10,000 ernment for the touring of drama Nungarin 3,000 this year, would the Premier ex- Pingelly .. 10,000 amine the relative correspondence Southern Cross .... 8,612 to satisfy himself that these two Three Springs .. 10,000 contributing sources were not, in Wongan Hills ...10,000 effect, played off against one an- Wundowie .. ...9,425 other? Wyalkatchem 10,000 (7) Is it a fact that local theatre For improvements to pools- endeavours in Western Australia Onowangerup .... 1,500 have received considerably less (3) (b) Not available. assistance from the Elizabethan Theatre Trust than any other Mr. Davies: Will Victoria Park be State? given a subsidy? Mr. BRAND replied: FLOODS (1) and (2) Not known. Damage to Railways, Bridges, Culverts and f3) (a) Yes. Abutments (b) Yes. 22. Mr. COURT (Minister for Railways): (4) The National Theatre and the The honourable member for Warren Adult Education Board are the asked me a series of questions on the only bodies that I am aware of. 27th August (Hantsard, P. 641). and [Wednesday, 16 September, 1964.) 969

he asked me for answers which were will be approximately £20,000. In not available at the time. I now have addition, there would be other the answers for the honourable mem- costs in connection with dis- ber; and, with your permission Mr. Organisation of south-west and Speaker, I would like to read them, as great southern rail and road I understand that unless I do so they services which are not available cannot be incorporated in Hansard. without a good deal of research. The answers are as follows:- An estimate would be in the (1) Yes. vicinity of £5,000. (2) Answered by (1) and (3). (3) Three bridges were damaged. MEMBERS' SPEECHES: (4) Cost of reinstatement Is estimated QUOTATIONS FROM at approximately £150,000. UNCORRECTED PROOFS (5) No. Statement by Speaker (6) No. ('7) Answered by (6). THE SPEAKER (Mr. Hearman): Yes- terday I undertook to investigate a com- (8) Failure was confined to concrete plaint from the honourable member for piers and abutments without pil- South Perth about the publication of an Ing foundations and was caused uncorrected speech made by the honour- by scour. able member on Wednesday last. (9) Yes, and as a result reinstatement I have ascertained that three copies of of bridges will be on concrete this speech were called for-two by Min- piers with piled foundations. isters, who received corrected copies; and 10) Three. one by the honourable member for Bal- (11) Four abutments failed by scour. catta. whose copy was uncorrected. (12) Not necessarily so, but the longer This latter copy was handed to the the bridge the more water it can honourable member for Balcatta in con- safely pass. formity with the direction I gave in 1959 (13) No. The difference of level up- that uncorrected speeches could be made stream and downstream of a available to honourable members after bridge Is dependent mainly on the midday following the day the speech was area of waterway provided and made. size of the flood. It is quite clear that the corrections to (14) (a) Flooding upstream of the the speech made by the honourable mem- bridge. ber for South Perth were not sighted by (b) Only in very exceptional the Chief Hansard Reporter prior to mid- day on Thursday last. I might interpolate floods. here that a speech cannot be deemed to (15) The timber structure replaced be corrected until the Chief Hansard had reached the end of its life and Reporter has accepted the corrections the bridge opening was deter- made by the member who made the mined on information relating to speech. It is not sufficient merely to drop and anticipated runoff. the corrected copy in a box in the Mansard (16) About 30 ft. portion of the building, as the honourable (17) The original bridge may have member for South Perth apparently did caused less flooding upstream. on this occasion. (18) The size of bridge openings are I have discussed this matter with the determined from the require- honourable member for Balcatta and ments of 50-year probability accept his assurances that he emphasised floods not from the width of the to the Shire Clerk of the Shire of Perth flood plain. When the south- that the copy of the speech made by the western railway was built, it was honourable member for South Perth which cheaper to build timber bridging he had obtained was uncorrected, and the than to build embankments. It honourable member had no reason to was for this reason that water suppose that any publication of this speech courses with wide flood plains of any kind was to be made. It would were crossed over their total seem that the Shire Clerk intended merely width with timber bridging. to make the substance of the speech, to- (19) Normal unrestricted speeds will gether with his comments, available to be resumed when the damaged Perth Shire Counciliors. bridges have been reconstructed. I have no reason to think that anyone- Temporary repairs have been that is, either of the honourable members effected to pass all trains at re- concerned, the Chief Hansard Reporter, or stricted speeds. the Shire Clerk of the Shire of Perth- (20) Maximum 18 days. acted in anything other than good faith. (21) It is estimated that the cost of I would further Point out that my the temporary repairs to the responsibility in this matter, of course, bridges and permanent way, etc.. extends to the actions and activities of the (ASSEMBLY.]

Hansard staff, and of members in this FIRE BRIGADES ACT Chamber. Naturally I can accept no responsibility for the actions of the Shire Disallowance of Regulation 100A: Clerk of the Shire of Perth; although, as a Motion result of conversations I have had with Debate resumed, from the 2nd Septem- the honourable member for Balcatta, I feel ber, on the following motion by Mr. W. there is no reason to suppose that he acted Hegney:- in anything but good faith. That regulation lOOA made under the provisions of the Fire Brigades Act BILLS (5>: INTRODUCTION AND 1942-1963, as published in the Govern- FIRST READING ment Gazette, W.A., on Thursday, the 16th April, 1984, and laid upon the 1. National T'rust of Australia (W.A.) Table of the House on Tuesday, the Bill. 4th August, 1964, be, and Is hereby Bill introduced, on motion by Mr. disallowed. Brand (Premier), and read a first MR. ROSS flUTCHINSON (Cottesloe-- time. Chief Secretary) (5 p.m.]: I wish to say at the outset that I oppose the motion. 2. Country Towns Sewerage Act Amend- The regulation in question is regulation ment Bill. 1ODA of the Fire Brigades Act, and the 3. Country Areas Water Supply Act Western Australian Fire Brigades Board Amendment Bill. makes no apology for its introduction. I think it is appropriate that I should read Bills introduced, on miotions by Wild (Minister for Water Supplies),Mr. the regulation, which is as follows:- and read a first time. 10OA. (1) An employee of the Board shall, when so required by, and at the 4. Bush Fires Act Amendment Bill. expense of, the Board, submit himself for examination by the Government 5. Parks and Reserves Act Amendment District Medical Officer who may, how- Bill. ever, engage the services of consultants Bills introduced, on motions by Mr. if, In his opinion, the case so requires. BovelI (Minister for Lands), and (2) The services of an employee read a first time. certified by the Government District Medical Officer to be physically unfit BILLS (6): THIRD READING for further service may be terminated by the Board. 1. Chiropractors Bill. (3) AiinnmpoYee who tails, when Bill read a third time, on motion by ie-ed bY tihe Board, to submit him- Mr. Ross Hutchinson (Minister for self for examination, Is guilty of an Health), and transmitted to the act of misconduct aid his servicei Council. may be terminated by the Board. 2. Sale of Liquor and Tobacco Act Regulation 97 provides for inedical Amendment Bill. examination of approved firemen candi- dates to establish an initial standard of 3. Local Courts Act Amendment Bill. physical fitness. Prior to the gazettal of Bill1s read a third time, on motions regulation 100A there 'was no provision for by Mr. Court (Minister for Indus- the employer to Insist on a medical trial Development), and passed. examination to establish an employee's fit- 4. Presbyterian Church Acts Amendment ness for fire-fighting duties during the Bill. course of his service, which service could extend over a period in excess of 40 years. Bill read a third time, on motion by Regulations made under the Act are the Mr. Ross Hutchinson (Chief Sec- proper place for the provision of this retary), and transmitted to the power, and the industrial award rightly Council. prescribes the sick leave arrangements for 5. Justices Act Amendment Sill1. staff. 6. Evidence Act Amendment Bill. Isolated instances do occur-and they are isolated-when an employee can be- Bills read a third time, on motions come medically unfit for fire fighting, and by Mr. Court (Minister for Indus- as such may prejudice not only his own trial Development), and Passed. safety at a fire but also the safety of other members of the fire-fighting crew, and possibly members of the public. I sub- CANCER COUNCIL OF WESTERN mit that so far as the board is concerned, AUSTRALIA ACT AMENDMENT this sort of thing cannot and should not BILL be allowed. to happen. It is considered the board has a responsibility to require Report an employee to submit to a medical ex- amination in such circumstances, and this Report of Committee adopted. is the purpose of regulation 100A. [Wednesday, 16 September, 1004.13 972

The right La require an employee to At the time, the board sought an amend- submit himself for a medical examination ment to the regulations, but the then properly belongs to the employer-par- Chief Secretary did not see his way to ticularly in this case, where public safety proceed. His reasons were not conveyed is involved-and in stipulating the Gov- to the board. This fact was mentioned ernment District Medical Officer the regu- by the member for Mt. Hawthorn. It is lation aims at impartial treatment. It is the submission of the board that such a appropriate for me to say there is a medi- person could jeopardise the safety of him- cal standard of fitness laid down by one self, of the Public, and of his workniates. Government medical officer, which is de- It might be added that one employee- sirable in the circumstances. a fireman-attended a doctor nominated Examples of somewhat like regulations by the board, without objection from the -regulations somewhat akin to those I Firemen's Union, when such action was have read to the Hous-apply to both necessary for him to be retired on medical the police and the Public Service. Police grounds so as to enjoy total benefits regulation 88 (e) reads as follows:- from the Staff Superannuation (Retire- Any member of the Force shall ment) Fund. Under circumstances such when so required by the Commissioner as this, there is no objection; yet when submit himself f or examination by a vital requirements are concerned in the in- medical board consisting of three terests of the public and the workmates medical practitioners to be nominated of the individual concerned, objections are by the principal medical officer with raised. This appears to be highly anom- a view to ascertaining whether he is alous. fit for further active service and any Regulation 100lA applies to all employees such member who neglects or refuses of the board-officers, firemen, mechanics, to so submit himself when required technicians, special servicemen, and will be deemed guilty of an act of mis- clerical staff; and two firemen are cur- conduct against the discipline of the rently employed on light duties. being Force. Any member of the Force physically unfit for active fire-fighting reported to be physically unfit duties. by a medical board shall be called The board is mindful of the welfare of upon to resign from the Force. its older employees and recognises that Public Service Act section 49 reads as physical fitness standards must be assessed follows:- having regard for age. Compulsory medical If an officer appears to the Com- examination of the statf at large for the mnissioner after a report from the purpose of achieving a minimum standard Permanent Head to be unfit to dis- of physical fitness is just not contem- charge or Incapable of discharging the plated. The unions are anticipating prob- duties of his office efficiently, the lems which have not occurred, and should Commissioner shall enquire and deter- be prepared to give the regulations a fair mine whether it is proved such officer trial. is unfit to discharge or incapable of I should like to point out finally that discharging the duties of his office the examination which is required by the and the Governor on the recom- board is an examination which is paid for mendation of the Commisisoner may by the board. I oppose the motion. deal with such officer either by calling upon such officer to retire from the MR. W. HEGNEY (Mt. Hawthorn) ( 5.10 Public Service or by transferring him p.m.]: I should like to reply to a few to some other Position and every such of the statements made by the Minister; officer if called upon to retire shall and I should like to impress this upon retire accordingly. members--especially upon those honour- As recently as January, 1963, a station able members on the Government side of officer contested the board's right to re- the House: The Minister in his reply made quire him to submit to a medical examina- no reference to certain of my statements. tion by the board's doctor, and the prob- One contention of mine was that the least lem could be resolved only by the board the Minister could do was to meet the being prepared to accept the advice of representatives of the union to discuss the the employee's doctor. Prior to this position. The Minister very carefully over- occurrence, officers had submitted for looked that statement and made no refer- medical examination by the board's ence to it whatsoever. doctor. I again ask the Minister, before I deal Several years ago-I think it was in with a few of his statements: why is it 1956-a fireman was reported by the that he, as the minister administering the station officer in charge as being con- Fire Brigades Act-the employees of which sidered unfit for fire-fighting duties when consist of about 300 workers--refuses to he returned to duty after sick leave. The meet the union? Firemen's Union intervened and claimed the employee had satisfied the require- Mr. Graham: Because they are workers. ments of the Fire Brigades Act regulations Mr. W. HEGNEY: That is a fair ques- when he submitted a clear medical certi- tion. The union does not want anything ficate from his own doctor. extravagant. Al] it requires is that it IASSEMBLY.1 should be given an opportunity, to which discussions with the union's representa- it is entitled as an organised body, of tives. The union opposed the Proposed placing its case before the responsible regulation and it confirmed its Opposition Minister. in writing. Prom the Present Minister's Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Do you want to own statement it is apparent tbat the then know why? Chief Secretary did not proceed with the matter because, as I have already said, he Mr. W. HEGNEY: You have not said was satisfied with the existing circum- so yet. stances and the existing position. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Do you want to know? The Minister said there had been cases of men who were unfit for duty. He re- Mr. W. HEGNE Y: I would appreciate ferred to one that happened eight years it, even though the Minister is sitting ago, in 1956-getting on for nine years down. ago; and it is questionable whether the Mr. Ross Hutchinson: They didn't ask Minister was right or wrong. As a matter me. of fact the Minister used the words "an Mr. W. HEGNEY: I am very pleased isolated instance"; and because of an that the Minister made that interjection. isolated instance, the Minister and the because he must have seen the regulation Fire Brigades Board, behind the back of before it was gazetted. I take it that the union-without any reference to the silence is consent to my statement. The union executive-apparently agreed that Minister must have seen that regulation the regulation should be gazetted. Yet before it was gazetted. If he did not, then ministers of the Crown, day in and day the board is doing something without the out, talk about improving the industrial knowledge of the Minister. relationship between the employees and Mr. Ross Hutchinson: If you think the the Government departments. It is so Minister has got to consult with every- much hypocrisy to my way of thinking. body- I have mentioned previously, and I re- Mr. W. HEDGNEY: The Minister is not peat, that there are certain regulations going to put me off the track. which have been gazetted and which, to my way of thinking, and that of the union, Mr. Ross Hutchinson: You don't know entirely meet the position. There was what you are talking about. one regulation mentioned at the outset; Mr. W. HEGNEY: I did not interrupt namely, that when an application is made the Minister when he was speaking. How- by a person to enter the service, he must ever, I do not mind his interrupting me. have a certificate of physical fitness. The because it gives me an opportunity of Minister skated lightly over this. He did pointing out how weak his reply was. not refer to it, actually. If a man has Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Then I shan't one day's sick leave he must, under the interrupt. Fire Brigades Board regulations, produce Mr. W. HEGNEY: The Minister- a medical certificate of physical fitness be- fore he can return to work. Mr. Bove 11: The honourable!I Neither did the Minister make any refer- Mr. W. HEGNEY: -is the responsible ence to the provision in the industrial representative of the Government, to award which was made by the conciliation whom the Fire Brigades Board is respon- commissioner to the effect that if an em- sible. I suggest that when the board pro- ployee's pattern of absences is such that poses to gazette regulations, it should not it departs from the usual circumstances do so behind the back of the Minister. If or procedures, then a certificate must be it does, then it is about time the Minister demanded. told the board where it gets off. If it did submit the proposed regulation to the Min- I suggest that the least the board and ister, then the Minister must have read it. the Minister could have done was to dis- Tli he had the interests of the public at cuss the matter with the union before in- heart, and if he wanted to improve indus- troducing the regulation. I will not labour trial relationships between the board and this point, but the Minister quoted what the union members-both the officers and happened in respect of the police. A the employees-then the least he could medical board is the authority to deter- have done was-to use the phrase of the mine whether a policeman Is unfit for member for Bayswater-to extend common duty-not one medical officer; and the courtesy- position under the Plublic Service regula- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: What nonsense! tions is entirely different from what the Mr. W. HEGNEY: -by meeting the Minister proposes in his regulation. representatives of the union to discuss the Mr. Ross Hutchinson: The principles matter. are alike. Mr. Bovell: You are in reverse now. Mr. W. HEGNEY: The principle has Mr. W. HEGNEY: Introducing the mo- been established for years that the Pre- tion for disallowance, I mentioned that a sent regulations are sufficient to meet the previous Minister, eight years ago, had position from time to time. Here is the [Wednesday, 16 September, 1954.])7 073 principle, according to the Minister; and of his absences is such as to indicate that this is the regulation under the Public his health needs some examination-then, Service Act- of course, the men themselves would be If an officer appears to the Commis- concerned at the position. sioner, after a report from the Per- I do not intend to go into the matter manent Head, to be unfit to discharge in further detail at this stage. I have or incapable of discharging the duties outlined the case for the union in mfy of his office efficiently, the Commis- motion, and I would ask the Minister to sioner shall inquire and determine agree to the disallowance of the regula- whether it is proved that such officer tion, and to meet the representatives of is unfit to discharge or incapable of the union to allow them to put up their discharging the duties of his office, case. If then he is satisfied, as the and the Governor, on the recommen- previous Minister was, that the present dation of the Commissioner, may deal position is adequate, I1 suggest the Minis- with such officer either by calling upon ter will be the first to agree with the such officer to retire from the public union's view. If on the contrary the service or by transferring him to some Minister is not satisfied and he still holds other position; and every such officer. the view that the board should have this if called upon to retire, shall retire safeguard, then I suggest the union will accordingly. have to accept the Position. This regulation 100A peremptorily says to My final word is this: The union is con- the man, "You shall submit yourself to an cerned. It is perturbed, if not disgusted, examination, and if you do not you will at the backdoor-I was going to say under- be committing an act of misconduct and hand-methods adopted by the board to can be tramped within a month." That, have the regulation brought down behind to my way of thinking, is dictatorship. the back of the union; because the first The union is incensed, and rightly so. the union knew about it was when it found Any body of trade unionists would be in- the regulation published in the Govern- censed at such dictator methods as the ment Gazette. I hope members will agree board has adopted, more particularly as to my motion. this proposed regulation was submitted to Question put and a division called for. a previous Minister. I repeat that the least The SPEAKER (Mr. Hearman): Just the board could have done was to report before the bells are rung, this division in- the matter to the Minister. The file should volves a personal problem for the honour- have gone to the Minister and he should able member for Cockburn, and I have de- have perused it; and then, if he had done cided to allow him to remain in his seat the right and decent thing, he would have regardless of how he wants to vote. He can invited the union representatives to discuss indicate either to the Whip or to me which the matter with him: and they ask now way he intends to vote. I want that clearly that that be done. They desire to meet understood before I ring the bells. the Minister; and if a meeting can be held they believe that some reasonable ar- Division taken with the following re- rangement can be made to overcome the suit:- position. Ayes-li7 Mr. Brady Mr. Jamieson is that an extravagant suggestion? Is Mr: Curran Mr. Kelly that something dictatorial? Is that some- Mr. Davies Mr. Oldtleld thing that any member of this Chamber Mr. Evans Mr. Rowberry Mr. Fletcher Mr. Sewell could not agree to? Of course it is not! Mr. Graham Mr. Toms All that the union representatives desire Mr. flaill Mr. Tonkin at this point of time is that this regula- Mr. Hawke Mr. H. May tion be withdrawn and they be given the Mr. W. Hegney (Teller) opportunity-and they are responsible Noes-IS men-to put their case before the Minis- Mr. Bevel) Mr. Hutchinson Mr. nrand Mr. I. W. Manning ter. Surely that is not beyond the Mr. Court Mr. W. A. Manning Minister's ability! He is not bound to Mr. Craig Mr. Mitchell accept their views; but I suggest he is at Mr. Crommelin Mr. Nalder M. Dunn Mr. NIMMO least bound to meet them and to discuss Mr. Gayfer Mr. Uuncimsan the position with them. Mr. Drayden Mr. Wild Let me say this: That in any particular Mr. Guthrie Mr. O'Neil (Teller ) case where it is obvious that one of its pairs members-I want the Minister to under- Ayes Noes stand this clearly-is physically incapable Mr. J. Homney Mr. Lewis of carrying out his work, the union would Mr. Rhatigan Mr. Williams Mr. Bickerton Mr. Hart not desire that he should continue in the Mr. Norton Mr. O'Connor job, from the point of view of public safety, Mr. Mair Mr. Burt and because of the safety of its members. Mr. D. G. May Dr. Henn But the regulations already provide ample Mr. Heal Mr. Cornell safeguards to meet that position. Where a Majority against-il. man is booking off sick-not casually such as one day a year, but where the pattern Question thus negatived. I ASSEMBLY.

MINING ACT AMENDMENT BILL were notified that they must conform with (No. 2) the amended regulation by the 30th June, 1964. Receipt and First Reading The reason for providing that the name Bill received from the Council; and, on and address of a milk vendor be painted motion by Mr. Court (Minister for Indus- on both sides of his vehicle is that the trial Development), read a first time. Milk Board is introducing a licensing sys- tern based on districts. It is in the interests BILLS (4): RETURNED of the vendors themselves that they should assist to prevent other Persons from de- 1. Milk Act Amendment Bill. livering milk unlawfully in any licensed 2. Alsatian Dog Act Amendment Bill. district. Under the original regulation 3. Anzac milkmen were permitted to have a sign of Day Act Amendment Bill.' some description hanging on the sides of 4. Agricultural Products Act Amendment their vehicles. Some milkmen had signs Bill. Painted on pieces of timber, on pieces of Bills returned from the Council with- iron, and by other means so that their out awmendment. vehicles could be identified by a Milk Board inspector. This regulation was gazetted on MILK ACT the 17th March, 1950, and breaches of it have continued from that time right up to Disallowance of Amendments to the publication of the recent notice on the Regulation 318: Motion 30th June last. Debate resumed, from the 2nd Sevtein- Since that regulation was gazetted, 203 her, on the following motion by Mr. prosecutions have been launched because Kelly:- some milkmen were not hanging on the That the amendments to regulation sides of their vehicles a sign which clearly 318, made under the Milk Act, 1946- indicated their names and addresses. 1963, as published in the Government Mr. Toms: The number of prosecutions Gazette of the 10th March, 1964, and does not signify the number of breaches of laid upon the Table of the House on the regulation. the 4th August1 1964, be, and are hereby, disallowed. Mr. NALDER: The milkmen were given an opportunity to conform with this regu- MR. NALDER (Katanning-Minister for lation so that a Milk Board inspector could Agriculture) [5.30 p.m.]: I rise to oppose identify any vehicle. As I have said, 203 the disallowance of regulation 318 as prosecutions have been launched. In the sought in the motion by the honourable last five years, for breaches of the regula- member for Merredin-Yilgarn. and hasten tion by milkmen in the metropolitan area, to say that I cannot understand any hon- 13 prosecutions were launched for the year ourable member who suggests he has the ended the 30th June, 1960: in 1961 there interests of an Industry at heart rising in were 13; in 1962 there were eight; in 1963, his place in this House to move that a 11, and in 1964 there were 14; making a regulation such as this, designed to assist total of 59. every section of the industry, should be At the 30th June, 1964, there were 158 disallowed. Furthermore, the regulation milkmen licensed in the metropolitan area. was promulgated only after very serious Although seven further prosecutions have thought by the board which was consti- taken place since the 10th March of this tuted by an Act of Parliament, and after Year, when the amendment to the regula- I had given careful consideration to every tion was gazetted, in each case the vehicle aspect of it. Therefore I repeat that I was not identified with the licensee's name cannot understand any honourable mem- and address. Action was not taken merely ber moving for the disallowance of a regu- because of the failure of the vendor to lation such as this. paint his name and address on the vehicle Mr. Tonkin: What good does it do?. as required by the amended regulation. The prosecutions were launched because Mr. I4AIDER: Let the Deputy Leader of some vendors had not abided by the previ- the Opposition just wait and he will hear ous regulation which had been in force up what good it does. to that time. Mr. Tonkin: I will wait; but I do not Removable signs have been used by some think I will hear. milkmen in the Past, but prosecutions have Mr. NALDER: Let the Deputy Leader of still been necessary because a few of them the Opposition lust be patient and he will treated the regulation too lightly, and con- have clearly outlined to him the need for tinued to deliver their milk without paint- this regulation. It was gazetted under the ing their names and addresses on the sides provisions of the Milk Act, 1946-1963. The of their vehicles. In considering the hours Milk Act had various amendments made during which a milkman may use his ve- to it, and this amended regulation was hicle for delivering milk, regulation 144 published in the Government Gazette on Prescribes that milk shall be delivered only the 10th March, 1964. Also, all milkmen between the hours of 1 a-rn. and 9.30 am. [Wednesday, 16 September, 1964.197 975

In the metropolitan area, with the excep- regulation. Any variation in the proce- tion of the city blocks of Perth and F~re- dure of identifying the vehicle itself, as mantle where the hours are between 1 a.mn. is now required by the regulation, will un- and 12 noon. The honourable member, doubtedly mean that the board will have when referring to this aspect, said that to revert to the unsatisfactory position of delivery took place during only two or having to police continually the require- three hours, ments of the regulation. A milk round of 100 gallons daily in the To identify a vehicle is a modest re- metropolitan area, 10 per cent, of which quirement, and the argument that the ve- would represent shop trade, would pro- hicles of milkmen are used privately is not vide a gross income of £56 per week on considered valid as most firms engaged in the margins of Is. Bid. per gallon for delivery of milk use their vehicles as an household delivery, and Bid. for delivery advertising medium without limiting their 'to shops. Under the system of licensing private use, as is evident on any weekend by districts, it is essential for the vehicles at beach or other resorts. A delivery ye- of milkmen to be readily identifiable. It is hidle is an essential requirement In the In their own interests for such identifica- business of a licensed milkman, and it is tion to be displayed to assist in prevent- considered that its proper identification ing other persons from delivering milk un- to assist in the regulation of the industry lawfully. is entirely warranted, regardless of any Unlike other types of businesses, which other private or business purpose for which do not require the names and addresses the owner wishes to use the vehicle. of the vendors to be displayed, in the At this stage I might point out that this milk industry it is necessary that this pro- was one of the strong points suggested by vision be observed by the milk vendor, be- the Leader of the Opposition by way of cause he Is licensed to sell milk in a cer- interjection; namely, that possibly the ve- tain district or districts. Until the hicle could be used for other purposes. amendment to regulation 318 the position Therefore that is another reason why this became quite farcical, with many milkmen regulation has been gazetted; that is, that making removable signs of cardboard, many milkmen use their vehicles for ether canvas, plywood, etc. This necessitated purposes. continual policing by the board's inspec- Mr. Kelly: What other purposes? tors, and subsequent prosecution when the signs were not displayed on the vehicle. I Mr. NALDER: Inspectors have stated might point out to the House that it is that in some instances the vehicle has necessary, under these conditions, for been used for many purposes, one of which two inspectors to be employed Inspecting was to cart rubbish. In fact, in another vehicles because the evidence of one in- instance it was said that one of the milk- spector, for the purposes of prosecution, is men had been carting a load cf cow man- not sufficient. ure in the vehicle be used to deliver milk. This is the situation that has developed, Mr. Tonkin: Will not the board still have and it is considered wise that this pre- to employ two inspectors? caution should be taken. I can assure for the inspec- the House that the information I have Mr. NALDER: No, not given is quite correct, tion of single vehicles. Mr. Kelly: Has a prosecution been level- Mr, Tonkin: Why not? led against any milkman for having done Mr. NALDER: Because before the ye- that? 'hidles are licensed they have to be pro- Mr. NALDER: The board has the power duced before the Milk Board, with the to prosecute,- names and addresses of the vendors dis- Mr. Kelly: But has it prosecuted? played on them. Mr. Tonkin: How will the board know Mr. NALDER: -but now it will not be that the vendors are not keeping in their necessary, because the inspector will be own districts if the districts are not pol- able to see the name and address on the iced? side of the vehicle. Mr, NALDER: Such inspections will Mr. Hawke: Will the Minister tell us continue, but the vehicles will have to be whether the board prosecuted in the case produced before the Milk Board with the he mentioned a moment ago? names and addresses of the vendors paint- Mr. NAL.DER: I am not able to give that ed on them before licensing. I think that information at the moment. position is quite clear. In any particular Mr. Kelly: You should know that. situation, when the circumstances were a little involved, two inspectors were re- Mr. NALDER: I will find out for the quired to prove the case in the event of honourable member. a prosecution. The Milk Hoard staff is Mr. Kelly: It will be too late then, better engaged on duties relating to the quality and hygienic production of milk Mr. NALDER: No; it will not be too instead of working in Pairs in an endeav- late. I will ascertain the number of prose- our to ensure that signs are attached to cutions that have been taken out in in- the vehicles of milkinen as required by the stances such as the one I have mentioned. LASSEMB3LY.I

I know that, reports have been made; and Mr. NALDES: I was referring to the if it is found that a vehicle has been used point raised by the member for Merre- for a wide variety of purposes, the board din-Yllgarn that objections had been should have the power to take action when raised, because some licensees wanted to it is considered necessary. use their vehicles for private purposes, and In recent months new applicants have did nob want their names and addresses been required to submit their vehicles to appear on the sides of the vehicles. In suitably identified for inspection at the of- that event they could put a covering over lice of the board before a license is is- the side. sued. I have already made this point clear Mr. Tonkin:, The same as they could do to the House. Twelve licensees have been licensed accordingly; that is, with their if they wanted to cart cow manure. vehicles having their names and addresses Mr. NALDER: If they were to take that painted on them. risk, it would be up to the inspectors to The question has been raised as to what ensure that their vehicles complied with would be the position of a milkman if his the regulations when milk was delivered vehicle broke down and he had to make to consumers. I say that the regulation a temporary replacement. The board is in question is reasonable and fair, and certainly tolerant in instances such as that, no objection can be taken to it. and no action would be taken when it could I understand that nearly all the milkmen be proved that an accident had occurred, in the metropolitan area have agreed to or the vehicle had broken down, making the amendments which were published in it necessary for the licensee to resort to the Government Gazette, although there the use of another vehicle to assist him are one or two who oppose them, because during that period of inconvenience. they want to use their vehicles for other Mr. Davies: The board will still need two purposes. The Milk Board considers it inspectors to watch them. should not be necessary for the licensees to use their vehicles for purposes other Mr. NALDER: I wish to add that under than for milk delivery, because a reason- regulation 319 the use of an upholstered able return is allowed to them in their motorcar for the delivery of milk is pro- occupation. It is an accepted fact that hibited. I think the member for Merre- they have full employment in this industry. din-Yilgarn said that some people deliv- ered milk in various types of vehicles, but I hope the House will support the Milk under that regulation a licensed vendor is Board in its efforts to help the delivery prohibited from delivering milk in an up- of a wholesome, clean product to the public. holstered vehicle. I presume that would I cannot see any reason why this House include a motorcar and a station wagon. cannot agree to the amendments to the regulation, because they will enable the The requirement for the name and ad- board to deliver a wholesome product to dress of the licensee to be painted on the the consumers in a hygienic manner. I vehicle is considered to be reasonable, be- hope the House will not agree to the dis- cause the painting of the names and ad- allowance of the amendments. dresses by people in other businesses ap- pears to be a normal precedure. Debate adjourned, on mnotion by Mr. I put this question to the Milk Board: Davies. If a licensee required his vehicle for pri- vate excursions and for going on holidays, SWAN RIVER RECLAMATION would it be possible to arrange for some type of covering to be used, so as to cover Suspension of Work: Motion up the name and address appearing on the side of the vehicle? The board advised me Debate resumed, from the 2nd Septem- that quite a number of vendors have ob- ber. on the following motion by Mr. Tonkin tained pieces of canvas, painted the same (Deputy Leader of the Opposition): colours as their vehicles, to cover the name and address on the vehicles. If licensed That consideration by Parliament vendors wanted to use their cars for pri- last session of the Government's Pro- vate purposes there would be nothing to posals for the further reclamation of prevent them from doing so. the Swan River in connection with the Mitchell Freeway and Traffic In- Mr. Rowberry: Why not adopt the sug- terchange having been inadequate for gestion of painting the name and address a matter of such far-reaching im- on the canvas? portance, it is the opinion of this Mr. NALDER: If the honour-able mem- H-ouse that all work relating thereto ber had been listening he would have heard which is at present in progress should the reason which I gave. be suspended and no further work undertaken, and the Chief Traffic Mr. Tonkin: If they were permitted to Engineer and Town Planning Com- use a covering, how could they be pre- missioner should go abroad to observe vented from carting cow manure in their the latest trends in methods of traffic vehicles? control in various parts of the world. [Wednesday, 16 September, 1964.1 97

MR. WILD (Dale-Minster for Works) The Deputy Leader of the Opposition. (5.50 p.m.]: Two weeks ago the Deputy who was then the Minister for Works, Leader of the Opposition introduced a decided to place the question before motion to this House relating to the Swan Cabinet in a hurry-probably Just the River foreshore reclamation. During a same type of hurry in which I presented very lengthy speech he criticised the Gov- the matter to this House last year-to ernment for the haste in which, just prior seek approval of Cabinet for the proposed to the rising of Parliament last year. it work. Following the representations made sought Permission of Parliament to carry by the Commissioner of Main Roads on the out further reclamation of the river. 30th August, 1954, certain Proposals were set out In a minute. The following is an Further on in his speech he criticised extract of what he put forward in a the Government for failing to send minute engineers and town planners overseas to to the Minister for Works:- find out the latest developments relating All of this first stage of the reclama- to town planning, traffic matters, etc., and tion in Mounts Bay should be regarded for falling to take heed of a deputation as a matter of much urgency as there is certain to be difficulty in adequately that was introduced by the Deputy Leader consolidating the filling within the of the Opposition to the Premier for the time schedule purpose of halting the scheme, because, in of the overall plan. his view, there was no urgency for the Further on, he went on to say- work to be done, In blue on the plan is shown the I find it difficult to realise the Deputy proposed first stage position of the Leader of the Opposition coming before river wall. This will enclose an area this House in 1964 and telling members of reclamation of forty-four acres there is no urgency for the completion of approximately, and as the depth of the Mitchell Freeway. I intend to go back fill will be approximately 9 feet some- a few years, when the honourable member thing like three quarters of a million occupied my portfolio as Minister for cubic Yards will be required. Works. At that time he had the Job of He went on to indicate how it was pro- hurrying on with the Narrows Bridge Posed to obtain the sand fill, and who was project. I am not criticising him for what to do the work. Further in the minute he did on that occasion; and I do not he said- expect him to criticise me for what I am All Preliminary works at the Nar- doing now. What the honourable member rows Bridge will need to be expedited said to the House when he introduced the wherever possible, and the pressing motion two weeks ago was to the effect, forward of this initial work of reclama- "Don't do as I do, but do as I say." tion is of Particular importance owing It will take me some time to relate what to- has transpired over the years in regard (a) The degree of consolidation to the fairly quick upsurge in the popula- and stability of the fill being tion and traffic, particularly within the virtually directly dependent metropolitan area. In 1954 that upon the time factor; brought about the proposal for the con- (b) the need for establishing as struction of the Narrows Bridge and early as possible a suitable Freeway as stage one of the and stable bridgehead area, for programme. As I shall show later on, all assembly of construction that the Deputy Leader of the Opposition material and plant; could think about at that time, and all (c) the limited capacity of the that I could think about on this occasion, dredge "Stirling" for coping was the speed at which the project could with all works at present be completed. As I have said on many envisaged. In this connection previous occasions, whoever occupies the I would like to be associated portfolio of Minister for Works in 1969- with and support any recom- when the Mitchel Freeway will be ready mendations which may be put for traffic-will receive criticism from a forward for the Purchase and lot of people for not having completed the installation of a booster pump project earlier. for increasing the dredge's in order to get the story of the reclama- Output. tion of the Swan River straight, I wish to Submitted for your consideration lay on the Table of the House for seven and approval. days the plan before me. It shows the Commissioner of Main Roads. reclamation which has taken place in the Swan River between 1954 and 1964. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition, as 1 go back to the 30th August, 1954, when Minister for Public Works, then sent the -the files disclose this on many occasions following minute to the Premer:- -the Commissioner of Main Roads, mainly It is highly desirable that this work, through the traffic section, expressed great if approved, should be allowed to pro- concern at the great upsurge in traffic in ceed without delay, and I should there- the metropolitan area. Quite a number of fore appreciate it if You could have representations were made to the Minister consideration given to this proposal at at that time. today's Cabinet meeting. 1ASSEMBLY.]

Subsequently at that Cabinet meeting I will not read the whole of the article, approval was given for the work to be because it is very voluminous. He refer- done. red to the build-up and what was going A few weeks later, on the 29th November, to happen, and then one of the final para- 1954, the Commissioner of Main Roads graphs, headed "Urgency of Work," is again pointed out in a minute to the Min- as follows- ister the need for urgency in pressing for- Mr. Tronkin said that in every com- ward with the reclamation and consolida- munication criticising the Narrows tion. That was exactly the same position in Bridge scheme, whether addressed to which this Government found itself in the Press or to Ministers and Govern- respect of the Mitchell Freeway: and that ment departments, it had been ob- was exactly what I said last year. It was served that the writer had not ap- the very point on which we hung our preciated the magnitude of the traffic bats--to get the reclamation done as problem of the future. The West Aus- quickly as possible, because of the need trazlan had commended Mr. Boas's for consolidation. proposals for traffic dispersion as In the minute of the 29th November, being "far-sighted planning"; but 1954, the Commissioner of Main Roads such proposals were likely ultimately said- to cost motorists who used the Nar- It is most important that the re- rows Bridge for the purpose of en- clamation be commenced as soon as abling them to get to Perth £350,000 possible in order that consolidation a year for an additional half-mile- may commence. The dredge "Stirling" travel, it was not possible to dis- will be available for about three weeks perse large numbers of vehicles before Christmas. After that it has through a series of intersections at been arranged for it to go to important grade, and with no provision for park- work in the fishing boat harbour at ing. Fremantle. Just note how important it was to get on He went on to say- with the job, because overtime was advo- There were many ambiguities in cated. The minute continues-- Mr. Boss's articles and the diagram This work at Fremantle should be that accompanied it, but these were expedited, perhaps by some overtime not discussed here since the proposal work, in order that the dredge may on major grounds was so manifestly return to the Narrows as early as impracticable. There was, however, possible, and after its return arrange- said Mr. Tonkin, one point that war- ments should be made for working a ranted Comment. That was the ques- double shift. tion of urgency. In the leader of the same issue of The West Australian It is obvious that the Government of the it had been suggested that there was day considered, as we did a few months ago, there was vital necessity to get on no great urgency about the work be- with the job. The minute I have referred cause it was hard to believe that the to was sent to the Cabinet, and the pro- Causeway capacity was rapidly ap- posal was approved by the Leader of the proaching saturation. The Causeway Opposition, who was then the Premier, on was not at saturation over the larger part of the day, but anyone who the 29th November, 1954. travelled the Causeway at evening These probings were carried on by my peak appreciated that it was already predecessor, or by officers on his behalf, at saturation for at least one hour and the reclamation commenced. Natur- for five days a week. ally, as with any project of this kind- and we are experiencing the same thing I repeat that this was on the 18th July, now-people write to the Press and state 1955-nearly 10 years ago. The Minister that things are being done the wrong way. in his Press statement went on to say- They lose sight of the fact that we have Had the Government not takeu our experts, as well as advisers from over- vigorous action to analyse this prob- seas. However, that is the right of the lem, and to arrive at a prompt de- individual in our democratic country. cision that the Narrows was the pro- One person who, as we all know, writes per place to build the next river to the Press fairly frequently on matters crossing, it could rightly have been of this kind, is Mr. Harold Boas. He subjected to very unfavourable criti- wrote some few days prior to the 18th cism. Accepting the need for this new July, 1955, and this prompted the then river crossing, the stabilisation of the Minister for Works to give a pretty long reclamation and the approach em- dissertation in The West Australian, ex- bankments became a matter of in- plaining the attitude of the Government dubitable urgency. Reclamation and for having carried on with such expedi- consolidation of mud areas required tion. He said there was a necessity to ge6 time, and it would have been dan- on with the work. I hope be will agree gerous to delay action on this impor- when I sit down that exactly the same set tant matter until the bridge design of circumstances prevails today. The same and construction was further ad- necessity exists--to get on with the job. vanced. [Wednesday, 16 September, 1954.197 979

He then went on to refer to the main Mr. WILD: It is not fair for somneone roads and the number of vehicles coming continually to get up in this House and in. His final paragraph is fairy conclu- Publicly criticise the Government for sive, and it reads as follows:- taking 19 acres when the previous Gov- Constructive criticism of the plan- ernment took something like five or six nling of such a large project as the times as much. Narrows Bridge was very desirable and welcomed as being indicative of Mr. Tonkin: No it didn't! civic interest. it was hoped, how- Mr. Court: How much did you take? ever, that such criticism would always have regard to the many complicated Mr. Tonkin: Give the correct figures! engineering problems which con- About 56 or 58 acres. fronted the designer. Mr. Court: That's not including the Surely there was my predecessor saying Freeway. to the people of Western Australia before he started the Narrows Bridge that there Mr. WILD: I want to proceed to another was extreme urgency to get on with the Press statement made by the Deputy work! He did not mind that overtime had Leader of the Opposition, who was then the to be paid and extra shifts worked to get Minister for Works. He was replying to the dredge up here in a hurry. On that criticism apropos the Narrows Bridge. The occasion he did not have to come to statement appeared in The West Aus- Parliament; but, having decided to take tralian of the 6th March, 1956, and its 42 acres of the river- purpose was to bolster up the case which Mr. Tonkin: Was it not 44? the Deputy Leader of the Oppooltion had built-and rightly so; I would have done Mr. Toms: Make up your mind! you exactly the same thing. But I repeat: said 44 a while ago. Why turn around and say, "Don't do as Mr. WILD: in addition to the Freeway. I do, but do as I say"? The Deputy which involved 42 acres, Mounts Bay Road Leader of the Opposition was referring to and Narrows Bridge required another 68 another leading article which had appeared acres. Therefore, there were over 100 acres in The West Australian; and he had this in two bites of the cherry. to say- Mr. Dunn: That's where the river went? Referring yesterday to the leading Mr. WILD: It was supposed to be a article in "The West Australian" of matter of urgency at that time, and yet Saturday, 3rd March, in which several the Opposition is criticising this Govern- points concerning the Narrows Bridge ment for doing exactly the same thing were posed, the Minister for Works today. The only difference is that instead (Mr. Tonkin) said that he was delight- of our taking 100 acres we took a Paltry ed to join issue with "The West Aus- 19. tralian" on the question as to whether a bridge at the Narrows was really Mr. Tonkin: Is the Minister asserting I essential at this stage and whether, took over 100 acres? from a town planning point of view Mr. WILD: I am not asserting anything. the suggestion that the bridge be led If the Deputy Leader of the Opposition into Kings Park was more commend- looks at the map on the Table of the able than the Government's scheme. House he will see that between 1954 and 1959 when he went out of office, the Free- Regarding the need for the Bridge way and Mounts Bay-Narrows Bridge re- Mr. Tonkin said that a census taken clamnations were undertaken and the total at the eastern end of the Causeway area involved was over 100 acres, on 22nd July, 1955 had shown that for a Period of half an hour at even- Mr. Bovell: Did the Deputy Leader of ing Peak, vehicles (excluding pedal the Opposition get parliamentary ap- cycles) had Passed outwards from proval? Perth over the Causeway Bridge at Mr. Tonkin: Will the Minister be defi- a rate of approximately 4,100 vehicles nite on the point? Per hour, and that during the same period vehicles had left the Causeway Mr. WILD: That is incidental to the rotary and proceeded southward along main Point~ the Canning Highway at a rate of Mr. Tonkin: The main point is to state 1.950 vehicles per hour. At these the truth! figures the roundabout was at capa- City, but the vitally important point Mr. WILD: Firstly, I have proved to the was that the Canning Highway was hilt the Point I have been making about also at capacity at 1,950 vehicles per the -urgency of the situation; and, hour, and nothing would be gained secondly, an amount considerably more therefore by scrapping the rounda- than 19 acres was taken over to do this bout and replacing it by a new and necessary work. more expensive intersection treatment Mr. Tonkin: Why don't you state the unless at the same time Canning correct figures? Highway were widened, at great cost. [ASSEMBLY.]

He went on to say- been decided upon by the Main Roads In a Period of 17 months to July Department and negotiations will 1955 even peak traffic eastwards over soon commence to acquire the neces- the Causeway had increased from sary land. 3,250 vehicles per hour to 4,100 His final sentence was-- vehicles per hour and southwards on Canning Highway from 1,600 to 1,950. The City Engineer's Department of Having regard to these figures and the Perth City Council and the Main the governing capacity of Canning Roads Department are at present co- Highway, It was considered that the operating in respect of the location need for the construction of the and design of the Narrows-Wanneroo Narrows Bridge was not debatable, Road within the city boundaries. but was clearly established. Sitting suspended fromt 6.15 to 7.30 p.m. It was pertinent to ask on what grounds and with what authority Mr. WILD: Prior to the dinner suspen- "The West Australian" was able to sion I was indicating to the House that my state that from a town planning point predecessor had, from 1954 onwards, of view the suggestion that the bridge without doubt been pressed by his advis- should lead into Kings Park was more ers to go ahead with the building of the conmnendable than the Government's Narrows Bridge and the necessary recla- scheme. The Stephenson Plan sug- mation. I did this to give members the gested that the central city area of background, and to show how fallacious Perth lying between the Causeway on it is to think that we should be criticised, the east and George Street on the in the year 1964, for doing exactly the same West was more than adequate, on a thing. Plot ratio of five, for the commercial, Before dissecting the dissertation of the professional and shopping needs of a honourable member, I want to read to the Population of 1,400,000 people. House the comments of the Chairman of He continued- the Swan River Conservation Board who. prior to the introduction of the motion in That being the case, it would seem the House last year, had given considera- sound town planning to enclose the tion to the representations of the Main central city area as closely as possible Roads Department for the early reclama- within a road ring of high standard so that the traffic generated by the tion and procedure in regard to the first city Centre might be distributed freely stage of the Mitchell Freeway. along its boundaries. The honourable member indicated that I want members to remember that last the motion was brought to the House dur- passage; because later in his speech, which Ing the dying hours of the session. I I shall refer to this evening, he made want to read to honourable members the that. Continuing- reason for the motion being brought in great play about then. This is the report by the Chairman It would not seem good town plan- of the Swan River Conservation Board- ning to have the western side of the 1. The proposal was first outlined ring removed too far from the city to the Swan River Conservation Centre and taken through Kings Park, Board by the Commissioner of as suggested by Mr. Boas. Main Roads, at its meeting on The route from the Narrows across the 8th August, 1963. to the western end of the central city area formed an essential extension of 2. The Commissioner of Main the proposed northern route from the Roads made a fully documented north west corner of the city block to submission on 26th August. 1963. Wanneroo and this had been discussed Copies of the document were cir- at conferences between the Perth City culated at the meeting on 5th Council, the Town Planning Depart- September, 1963. ment and the Department of Main 3. The board finally dealt with the Road-- submission at its meeting on 31st Members will bear in mind that this was October, 1963, and indicated its on the 8th of March, 1956. Continuing- approval. at which the need for early resump- 4. The proposal was given careful tion of land along the route had been consideration by all members and agreed upon and a proposal considered the decision was unanimous. to finance the resumptions-estimated 5. Members stressed they regretted to cost £475,000-by raising a loan in any reclamation was necessary. connection with which the State However, there appeared to be no Government and Perth City Council alternative and the Main Roads would collaborate. It was expected Department had done everything that the need for the construction of possible to minimise the extent of the road would arise within a very the fill. It was less than envis- few years of the completion of the aged in the Stephenson Plan, Narrows Bridge. The location of the which had been produced and road outside the City boundaries has published at a much earlier date. [Wednesday, 16 September, 1984.1 981

The proposals were linked with Let us now dissect the speech made by a major development Project the honourable member. To each part, I costing millions of pounds, and will give the reply of the Government. had been the subject of investiga- The honourable member, after indicating tion by experts overseas. Many the lateness of bringing this motion before Plans were considered and reject- the House, had this to say- ed in an effort to minimise recla- It appears to me that such a pro- mation. cedure could not possibly be excused Members were satisfied that the on the ground of great urgency, be- 19 acres of fill could not be avoid- cause it was some weeks subsequent to ed without serious limitation of the rising of Parliament that the ini- the use of the freeway inter- tial work of filling in the river com- change. The amount of recla- menced. mation was directly related to the Bear this in mind, "it was some weeks." road engineering requirements- To continue- the angle of curve for quick dis- There was ample time for the Gov- persal of traffic. ernment to have agreed to the com- 6. Whilst the board regrets the loss mittee which was suggested, and of the 19 acres, it feels that there moved for in this House, and for the are some compensating factors on committee to have given consideration the credit side-not justifying the to the proposal before any work was reclamation but offsetting its ef- undertaken. fects: Now, let us have a look at what did hap- pen. I think, from memory, it was the (a) The fill will remove an un- 3rd or 4th December when I introduced tidy and dirty section of the the motion to give approval for the 19 river which, because of its acres of reclamation of the Swan River. muddy and shallow nature, Borings to determine the depth of mud had needed constant at- and to obtain samples for testing were not tention to preserve its commenced until Parliamentary approval cleanliness: of the reclamation had been obtained on (b) The area was not navigable the 6th December, just two days after- and was of no use for wards. Boring in the river commenced recreational purposes; on the 13th and progressed continually (c) The 19 acres is only a small until completed on the 15th January, 1964. portion of Perth Water Several weeks were required for labora- totalling some 800-900 tory investigations to evaluate the results acres: before deciding on the most economical (d) The dredging will deepen methods of reclamation. Tenders were and widen channels to called for the supply and placement of make for better navigation sand filling on the 28th February, 1964, and a more free flowing and they closed on the 12th March. A river; tender was recommended for acceptance (e) the landscaping envisaged on the 23rd and approved by Executive by a committee of experts Council on the 15th April. -headed by Professor So I think that shows pretty clearly Stephenson-will improve there was no delay whatever; it was a the foreshore and ensure question of waiting for the House to give a Proper blending of river its approval; and, within a matter of days- and foreshore facilities. or one could say hours, almost-the de- And so, Mr. Speaker, that was the partment went on with the job. Further reason for the delay in bringing the mea- on in his speech the honourable member sure to the House. The circumstances were said- exactly the same as those which faced my It seems remarkable that we, in predecessor when it was necessary to press Western Australia, can proceed on a on with the job as fast as the planners task of this magnitude without a full could possibly work. As I indicated, it was realisation of the nature of the prob- not until October. just prior to the end lem and the very great difficulties that of last session, that the Swan River Con- have confronted people in other places. servation Board was able to receive the Surely it cannot be said that the Gov- final considerations of the engineers of the ernmient is not aware of the magnitude Main Roads Department. The Swan River of the task; because it engaged the firm Conservation Board, in turn, decided of De Leuw Cather & Company, of Chic- unanimously that it should indicate to the ago. as consultants; and might I say that Goverment that, whilst it was not happy these people are consultants, and have about this 19 acres of reclamation, the been for some years, to the N.S.W. Govern- reclamation was necessary, and the board ment which is of the same calibre as my gave its unanimous approval. Accordingly, political friends opposite. In addition, this I brought the motion to the House. same firm, I understand, has recently-in [ASSEMBLY.] the last week or two-been engaged by the The honourable gentleman's request for Victorian Government; and, as the Premier detailed plans drawn to scale implies knows from his visit to America, the firm finished drawings. These plans are not is regarded as one of the greatest authori- yet complete, and will not be for some ties in the world on this particular subject. considerable time. However, I would in- The Stephenson-Hepburn planning re- dicate to the House that a detailed model port of 1955, after three years in prepara- of the proposed works, at an accurate tion, clearly indicated firstly a very real scale of 40 ft. to the inch, was presented appreciation of a growing Problem and the to members of Parliament and the public, need to formulate a broad overall frame- and it clearly shows the position and ex- work of roads on which to develop further tent of the embankmnents to which the detailed plans in the foreseeable future. It honourable member referred. The model must be appreciated that this planning could not have been built without adequate report was conceived and developed with geometric Plans, and such plans also de- all Government and local agencies in- fine the reclamation area. volved, particularly those connected with transport, i.e., the Railways Department, These geometric plans were an adequate the Main Roads Department, and the basis for the work; and I might add fur- Town Planning Department. The Mitchell ther that continually-daily, and even Freeway and the further reclamation of hourly-these Plans are being examined. the Swan River are part of this plan. They are stiil in the garage at the rear of one of the traffic offices in Mount Street I would draw honourable members' at- and they are being used daily and, as I tention to the fact that this was in 1955, said, even hourly. The officers check this during the time when my friend on the 40 ft. to the Inch scale model and then other side occupied the position of Minister move back to their offices to put on to for Works. Later the Stephenson Plan paper the refinements considered neces- was incorporated in the metropolitan sary, in exactly the same way as they regional plan, which was tabled in both did when the honourable member obtained Houses of Parliament and approved in instructions from his Government, and October, 1963. The honourable gentleman issued those instructions to his officers to then went on in his speech to say- proceed with the Narrows Bridge project What is more, we started on it with- before the detailed plans were finally com- out complete plans of what we were pleted. The Deputy Leader of the Opposi- going to do; and those plans are not tion went on to say- yet completed. On the 6th August of this year I When speaking to this proposal in asked the Minister for Works a ques- the House last December the Minister tion, and this appears on page 104 said it was anticipated that by 1985 of the current Hansard. I asked the traffic flow in the metropolitan him- area would reach 180,000 vehicles per Will he table a plan drawn to day. Assuming that most of that traffic scale which shows the position will occur during a period of 18 hours, say, from 6 am. to midnight, that and extent of the embankments gives us a traffic flow in the metro- which will be required for the pro- vehicles an hour. posed Mitchell Freeway and inter- politan area of 10,000 changes? I am certain the honourable gentleman This was some eight months after the has misinterpreted the figures I gave, as. Government had asked Parliament to when presenting to the House the pro- agree to the commencement of the posals for the further reclamation of the work. The following is the Minister's Swan River, reference was made to the reply- need for a complex interchange just north Plans showing the position and of the Narrows Bridge when a flow of the extent of the embankments of the order of 180,000 vehicles per day will be proposed Mitchell Freeway and achieved by the year 1985. This means interchanges will be tabled as 180,000 vehicles per day moving through soon as detailed designs are com- the interchange and not spread through- pleted. There are still aspects in out the metropolitan area, as was sug- planning and design which must gested by the Deputy Leader of the Op- be resolved with the Region Plan- position. This will produce a peak-hour ning Authority, Perth City Coun- volume in the morning and evening of the cil, and other authorities affected. order of 18,000 vehicles per hour. Here we are into September, but still there are no plans. This Is some In the metropolitan area there are some nine months after the Government 175,000 vehicles, including buses and com- commenced the work. So the Gov- mercial vehicles, making some 1.000,000 ernment commenced without knowing vehicle trips per day, i.e., in the peak hour what it proposed to do. In view of the more than 100,000 vehicles are moving over experience elsewhere, that is a most all the roads and streets in the metropoli- remarkable attitude. tan area, and only a proportion of this [Wednesday, 16 September. 1964.1 983

traffic, of course, is directed to, or moving in accordance with requirements.. across, the central city area. The honour- it is reasonable to assume that traffic able member went on- congestion can be largely prevented We were told that the firm of De from developing. Leuw Cather & Company had been That is an extract from a report submitted brought here from America to report to the Government last year by this con- upon the Mitchell Freeway and the sultant firm. In his speech, the honourable necessity for the reclamation of the member went on to say-and here he re- Swan River. We do not know the full ferred to his own experience when it took extent of the things upon which they him a long time to travel from point A to were asked to report, but it seems to point B- me they did not give any report about 1 happened to be in the city myself the capacity of the city to deal with that day as I desired to make a small the vehicles which would be directed purchase. I drove around for 35 to to it. I think they were asked to 40 minutes, adding to the traffic con- report upon the amount of ground re- gestion, looking for a parking spot and quired for the traffic interchange and finding myself frequently at the end whether it would involve any reclama- of a line of traffic which was unable tion of the river. to take advantage of the change in the It seems to me that the considera- lights because there was not sufficient tion should have been far broader than time for all the cars waiting to go that, because there is a lot more in- across to do so. That is in 1964. What volved. If we are to have 10,000 ve- is going to be the situation in the city hicles an hour in 1985 without any in 1985 if, after we have built the redevelopment of the city, imagine Mitchell Freeway and provided for 15 what is going to be the situation in traffic movements in and out of the the light of what I am now about to city, no redevelopment takes place in read: and I quote from The West Auts- the city to handle the traffic? traliazn of the 2nd April this year- That passage clearly indicates that the More Cars Brought Into City member for Melville does not realise the Perth Police estimated that purpose of the Mitchell Freeway, so I in- hundreds of extra cars were tend to quote to him the two basic require- brought into the city during the ments in the planning of a city such as morning Peak hour Yesterday by Perth. Firstly, there are the short-term owners who did not want to stand and long-term parking requirements, and in the rain at bus stops. then there must be some means of divert- ing the traffic which does not desire to Traffic accident inquiry men remain in the city; and to achieve this the said that drivers forgot that wet Mitchell Freeway will be used. The ques- roads led to skidding and most of tion of the amount of Parking space avail- the calls to them were for minor able in the city for this community is bumper to bumper knocks. divided into two Parts. Firstly, there is The evening Peak flowed more the long-term parking required for workers smoothly. in the city who travel to the city in private Children waiting at bus stops vehicles: and, secondly, there is the short- on Riverside-drive after school term parking required for those who are -near Langley Park were drenched desirous of doing business and shopping by cars driving through the in the city. flooded gutters. The Stephenson-Hepburn Plan envisages -The St. John Ambulances from the provision of large fringe car parks. the Perth depot answered ten calls such as the Perth City Council No. 2 car to accidents between 8 a.m. and park situated on the riverfront. The 16-p~m. second of these requirements is being examined by the Perth City Council in -This -firm of consultants, De Leuw association with the Town Planning ,Cather & Company, was requested to re- Department and the Main Roads Depart- view the broad scheme of a system of ment. The following is what the member freeways for the City of Perth as outlined for Melville had to say when he was unable -in the Stephenson-Hepburn Plan, and, in to move for 35 to 40 minutes:- -particular, the more detailed planning for It appears to me that we have the western switch road, or, In other words, rushed headlong into this without an -the Mitchell Freeway. I quote the follow- adequate examination of all the aspects ing -from the -report made by that firm:- involved. We have a situation where The approach taken by the Depart- the Main Roads Department, whose ment in following the broad recom- job it is to build roads, has no short- mendations of the Stephenson report age of money or staff and is planning ... setting a clearly defined and well- to build roads to Provide for motor balanced transportation for the future traffic. We have a band-and a very is commendable. With this plan . .. small band-of men in the Town if Properly executed over the years by Planning Department without suffi- gradual continua-l stage construction cient funds and without sufficient [ASSEMB3LY.]

staff to enable them to keep pace There is no doubt the Deputy Leader or' with the development which the city the Opposition was referring to the work requires. So they are not in a posi- Produced by Professor Colin Buchanan. tion to give adequate and complete His two publications, The Motor Car in answers to the questions which are Great Britain, and Traffic in Towns, are posed following on the road develop- well-known to the Main Roads Depart- ment which the Main Roads Depart- ment and have been thoroughly studied ment is desirous of carrying out. by its officers. The methods to be adopted in the development of the region- An examination of these aspect-s was al plan, and a transportation plan as re- commenced by the Main Roads Depart- commended in the Buchanan report, have ment when plans were first prepared for thus been known and used, and are con- the Kwinar'a Freeway and the Narrows tinuing to be used by the department and Bridge. Since that time investigations and the Town Planning Department in fuirth- studies have been made as a continuing erance of the redevelopment process over many years, during which of the city. time both the Main Roads Department The quotation from Professor Buchanan and the Town Planning Department have used by the Deputy Leader of the Oppo- worked closely together with continuous sition relating to vehicle movement front daily liaison between their technical of- suburbs to central city areas is so well un- ficers. The officers of these departments derstood in the field of urban highway appreciate the need for co-ordinating planning as to be axiomatic. The value transport planning with land use; and the of the proposed city ring road is, of course, magnitude of the task is also fully realised. to provide a facility at the centre, which In fact both departments require addi- will be in balance with the capacity of tional staff to keep pace with the prob- the feeder radial roads and enable traffic lems which arise with rapid traffic growth, travelling on the radial roads either to by- which is, Indeed, now experienced. pass the city or be directed to its destina- tion in the city by the most efficient route. Action has already been initiated to Its provision does in fact enable the city meet these demands, and both the Main area to become capable of accommodating Roads Department and the Town Planning the radial traffic. Department have been advertising over- seas and in other parts of the Common- The honourable member went on to quote wealth in an endeavour to recruit addi- some figures which he understood was the tional staff to make up the leeway to situation in Perth at the moment and he which the honourable member has refer- posed the following:- red. The Deputy Leader of the Opposi- What Is going to be the position in tion then went on, in the course of his 1985, with 10,000 vehicles per hour if speech, to refer to the Minister for Trans- there is no redevelopment in the City port in Great Britain. He said- and the provision of wider roads and the exclusion from some roads of The Minister for Transport in Great vehicular traffic? The Mitchell Free- Britain, realising the magnitude of the way proposal is one of ring roads, task which was confronting him- and Buchanan had this to say about and, In fact, confronting all countries such a proposal- in the world-decided it would be ne- cessary to set up expert planning If a wider view Is taken the committees to advise the Government. actual contribution to relieving the centre is extremely uncertain. He then continued to make some stress I feel sure the quotation given by the and play on the personnel who occupied honourable member was taken out of its positions in a, group known as the "Steer- context and is completely misleading. in Ing Group," and he went on to quote from the case mentioned the authors quoted the a book called Traffic in Towns very re- doubtful validity of an outer ring road cently published and said- around larger cities, not the case of an They draw attention to the com- inner ring road as envisaged with the plexity and the magnitude of these Mitchell Freeway. The two reports that problems:. and they keep on empha- the honourable member was quoting deal sising the very great difficulty in be- with the coming of the motor age. He ing able to find a proper solution. Mr. had this to say- Buchanan said- They say we can anticipate a very It would be unwise to feed in steep growth in motorcar ownership wide roads stimulating large ve- and that it will not be reduced because hicle movement from suburban of difficulty in travelling. it is the areas if the central areas were American experience that difficulty In not capable of accommodating travelling on the roads has not brought the traffic. about any reduction in the amount of From the extract I read from The vehicular traffic. West Australian, it is clear that the The people who have not hitherto City of Perth at present is not cap- owned a motorcar, but find it possible able of accommodating the traffic. to own one because of reduction in [Wednesday, 16 September. 1964.J 985

price or improvement in their living Clearly this environment is not one standard, will own a motorcar even which will of itself encourage the type of though they find the greatest difficulty transport development suggested by the in getting a place to park or in using honourabie member. However, active con- it once they have got it. But it is the sideration is to be given to such encourage- American experience that they will ment by governmental action. In his continue to buy; and so we have to speech the honourable member said- take the steps available to us in some Holford and Buchanan have both way to try to encourage people who said with their associates that build- have bought motorcars to use them ings which generate traffic should be only on certain occasions. The greatest integrated with the traffic arrange- possible emphasis is placed upon the ments in an overall concept of town absolute necessity to expand public planning, and this may require posi- transport, and to encourage people to tive and comprehensive re-develop- leave their cars away from the city ment; and following on this line, the and use public transport in order to future pattern of cities should be con- get to it. ceived as a patchwork of environ- mental areas; that is, areas from which He went on to say- traffic, other than that which has The argument is advanced that it business in the area, would be excluded, might very well be sound economics with the environmental areas both to provide public transport without separated by, and connected with, a charge in order to encourage people network of distributor roads used for to uise it, because in so doing the Gov- traffic and traffic only. ernments would save more in the roads The Deputy Leader of the Opposition went that they would not have to build on to say- than they would lose in carrying With regard to our ring roads, I people on public transport short pose this question: Will they in truth distances to their work. be ring roads in 1985. or will they be roads in the heart of the city taking I think it is well here to have a look at traffic through the heart of the city? what is happening in Western Australia, Will they in 1985 be roads which are because growing vehicle registrations and allowing vehicles to bypass the city, the steadily declining ratio of persons per or will they be roads bringing into vehicle in this country indicate that our the heart of the city traffic that does situation in terms of vehicle ownership not want to go there? I ask members today is the one that was predicted by to visualise just where these ring roads Buchanan in the book referred to for are to be placed. Think of the growth Britain in 1975. 1 think these figures are that has taken place in the city in very pertinent to the problem. The 1964 the last 25 years, and then imagine edition of Australian Roads, a publication what its size is likely to be in another of the National Association of Australian 20 years. State Road Authorities, shows that West- The Stephenson Plan, introduced in ern Australia and South Australia have 1955, was conceived as a means of preserv- the highest vehicle-ownership index with ing a strong city centre, largely by pre- 2.6 and 2.5 persons per vehicle; whereas serving the means of reasonable access to New South Wales and Victoria have a it; and, in fact, to prevent an uncontrolled similar index or ratio of 3.1. Experience drift to the suburban areas. The freeway has shown that cities in the United States system as it is envisaged, with an inner with population densities of 4,000 or less ring road and radial arms, will, in fact, per square mile, and with high vehicle achieve that aim. Without the inner ring, ownership ratios, simply do not have, nor intolerable street congestion would de- are they likely to develop, any form of velop. and without reasonable access the public transport at all. It is, however, centre of the city would tend to decay, hoped, might I say, to improve on this in and decentralisation would inevitably take Perth. Likewise there are old densely- place. populated cities in Europe or America I think the following comment is very where populations of 40,000 to 100,000 per- interesting, because it was approved as a sons per square mile are achieved, and it Is result of a traffic survey recently under- in such an environment that good public taken: More than 50 Per cent, of the transport is absolutely essential, and is vehicles Parking in the No. 2 car park reasonably and economically attainable. come from origins north of the railway. These vehicles going to and coming from Perth is a young city with a high vehicle the car park cause congestion in the city ownership. Even in the more densely streets. The Mlitchell Freeway will pro- developed parts it achieves a population vide easy access for this traffic which will density of only some 6,000 persons per not use the central city streets at all. square mile: while, if the region is taken and thus assist in freeing the centre of as a whole, the density is less than 2,000 the city for business and commercial persons per square mile. traffic. tASEMBLY.]

The size of the city within the ring and 9 a.m.-the two peak hours in the road will be more than adequate as a naorning-45.4 per cent. travelled by pri- central area for a population many times vate car, 42.4 per cent. by public transport, that anticipated for the City of Perth: and 12.2 per cent. lived at or walked to and providing development is controlled their place of employment. The basis of by the regional authority there is nu the ultimate plan is that 170,000 workers reason whatsoever for the city to develop will come into the metropolitan area daily. in such a manner that the ring road will, as suggested by the Deputy Leader of the I might point out that the Plan of the Opposition, ultimately be in the heart of Mitchell Freeway is based on only 34 per the city. cent, of the people coming to the metro- politan area in their own transport, and In a community such as ours, reshaping the whole of the plan has been built of the city must necessarily be a slow around that figure. As it is anticipated process in which the legitimate rights of that 170,000 people per day will come into all members of the community should be Perth by some means of transport, the considered. It is not a practical thing plan of the Government and the various to attempt to reshape the city by a detailed departments concerned aimns at getting the plan, enforced by any Government, before balance of the people--excluding those who steps are token to provide increased live in the city and walk to work, and the capacity in the road system to meet the 34 per cent. who come in their own trans- rapid increase in traffic. These two should port-routed back to rail or bus transport. proceed hand in hand, and it is likely that as new and modern highways are The report gives an outline of the man- provided in balance with an overall plan ner by which that aim can be achieved. of land use, their provision would act as The plan has been based on the assump- catalysts for better city development. tion that 34 per cent. of the people will travel in their own vehicles, while the The Deputy Leader of the opposition remainder-excluding the 9 per cent. I went on to say- referred to-will travel by public transport. One of the main causes of the prob- lem is to be found in what are known The Deputy Leader of the Opposition as the car commuters. According to went on to say- Buchanan this is the heart of the My motion suggests that before we urban traffic problem, and, to find have gone too far and the step is some solution to this, we should en- irrevocable, we should call a halt and deavour to persuade-not to direct or send our experts abroad to see what coerce or force-the car owner to do is going on. Let them go to the north his journey by bus or train rather of Ireland where a plan has recently than motorcar; and it is argued by been adopted, which is the result of the experts that it Is possible to per- very lengthy study in that country. suade a person to do that if the pub- It has been decided to limit the growth lic transport is made attractive by of Belfast and to provide for the being efficient, comfortable, frequent, growth of an entirely new city, in and cheap. which the roads and schools will be How many members do as I fre- so placed that it will nut be necessary quently do; which is, park my ear here for a single child to cross the road and catch a bus into the city and back in order to go to school. again, rather than drive into the When I heard his comments I wrote to city? the Minister for Transport of Northern The Government is fully aware of these Ireland and told him I was very interested problems. Last year the firm of De Leuw In the proposal. I asked for some litera- Cather & Company was given a further ture on the matter, which he most gener- assignment, to report to the Government ously forwarded, together with a full re- on transportation. That report was re- port of the engineers who had advised the ceived three or four weeks ago and is Government there on this particular mat- now being considered by the Cabinet. In ter. He intimated that the literature it the company sums up the situation in would provide most interesting reading. regard to the small number of persons per and no doubt it did. vehicle who were coming into the city, The final paragraph in this particular whether to stay in the city, to commute portion of the honourable member's speech in the city, or to pass through the city. is as follows:- It also reported on the number of people We have competent engineers in ribto came by public transport; on those Western Australia; but with a few wln, come by car; on the direction from exceptions, they have spent most of xvNrh they came: on the hourly rate; and their time in Western Australia. They on the flow rate. It is a very compre- have not, at first hand, come up hensive report, and I will now refer to against the problems with which they one or two facets contained in it. now have to deal; and there is no it is reported that, in 1961, of the 65,200 substitute for experience. One can people who terminated their journey in read as much as one likes; one can the heart of the city area between 7 a.m. study as much as one likes; one can [Wednesday, 16 September, 1964.198 987

listen to the experts as much as one traffic planners were learning to quan- likes: but there is no satisfactory sub- tify this complex situation and to stitute for personal experience. So we make adjustments in planning as the should send abroad the men who are cities grew and land use was modified. in a position to profit by the experi- This did not imply that the Perth ence. master plan was not an important and In that regard I must say I am rather valuable documentation of a concept amazed that a very well-read man like for the region's growth, but did imply the Deputy Leader of the Opposition- that our thinking on its future de- because I have no doubt that, like most velopment must be kept flexible. It of us in this Charnber, he gropes for his was clear from the experience gained paper at daylight every morning to see in America that the forms and func- wxhat someone else is saying about us- tions of the various parts of a metro- did not know that both Mr. Lloyd, the politan region depended largely on the Town Planning Commissioner of Western designs of transportation systems in Australia, and Mr. D. J. Davies, Chief Traf - the various modes, i.e., by private fic Engineer of the Main Roads Depart- vehicles, by buses, by rail services or ment, were sent overseas by the Govern- by some forms of rapid transit on rails. ment to do the very things he is suggest- Waterborne forms of transport should ing we should do. They both went over- also not be forgotten in a city such seas last year: and the result of the visit as Perth located along a river. An of these officers disclosed the fact that, aspect which had to be widely appre- ccmpared with studies in many cities of ciated was that the ultimate extent a similar size, the studies undertaken in of activity of the Perth central area this sphere in Perth are at least compar- would be a function of the transporta- able and, in many cases, in advance in tion capacity that could be built into their conception and execution. the plan. Thus the various metro- politan transport schemes which were I want to read what Mr. Davies had now under consideration in this State, to say when he returned from his visit such as the lowering of the railway to America. The purpose of his visit was through Perth and the construction of to examine and discuss traffic engineering, an inner ring road around the city the transport planning experience, proce- would all have a major impact on the dures, and organisation in that country. trade and other activities of the city Mr. Davies was asked to prepare a re- centre. port on his experience; but he said, by way Mr. Davies went on to say that he con- of preliminary comment, that the plan- ping situation as between Perth and many sidered it important that those sections American cities was quite different. Perth of the community interested in the future enjoyed the advantage of having adopted of the city should have some understand- at a comparatively early stage of its ing of the magnitude and the kind of Imn- growth a master plan for the region, which pact which these projects would create. had been drawn up in close collaboration He said further- between the planning authority and the In the field of traffic engineering authorities responsible for the Provision operations, there was a wide diversity of essential transportation services. Many in procedures across the United States American cities were not in this happy since much of the traffic engineering position; and, consequently, some major work was carried out by the large highway facilities were not in balance number of local authorities, many of with the needs and requirements of some whom had quite an individual ap- city authorities. I have been reading proach to the work. Thus it was dif- from an interim report to the commis- ficult in the United States to obtain sioner, which was sent on to me; and Mr. fairly rapidly, uniformity in traffc Davies went on to say- control regulations and devices, and in There was a further diversity in age this respect Australia was in a far and form of many United States stronger position as a result of the cities. These were a reflection of his- work being carried out through the torical experience, and the transport committees of the Australian Trans- systems which had grown up from port Advisory Council, the Traffic En- them; for example, cities such as New gineering Committee of the State Road York, Chicago and Boston were radic- Authorities and the Conference of ally different from the newer cities of State Traffic Control Engineers, all of the West. Thus even in the United whom were working effectively to- States itself there were many different wards uniformity in Australia. views as to the best methods of pro- viding transportation for the growing Mr. Davies concluded by saying that al- cities. It appeared that there was no though modern traffic engineering had de- simple and complete formula on which veloped in the United States, and Australia Perth or any other city could base had in general based its Practices on those its planning. However, engineers and of the United States, he did not consider [ASSEMBLY.J that today throughout Australia the prac- finished before 1959. 1 would like to see tice of traffic engineering was In any way it finished In 1965 if I could; but, as I behind that in the United States. In said, it is humanly impossible. some respects it was significantly better. I close on this point: Irrespective of all As I said before, a report was also sub- criticism, whether from the Press, the mitted to the Minister for Town Planning public, or the Deputy Leader of the Opposi- by the Commissioner of Town Planning tion, I repeat what I said this evening: (Mr. Lloyd). He, too, went to America Whoever is sitting in my seat in 1969, for about the same period as Mr. Davies, when the time comes for the Mitchell Free- and also went on to England. He was way to be completed and the traffic to away for about two months. After they move through, will have the hottest seat returned I have no doubt they both bene- in Western Australia-and for about three fited from what they heard and conversa- years before that date-because he will be tions they had with men in authority in criticised by everyone from one end of the that particular sphere in various parts State to the other for not having had it of the world. completed earlier. Mr. Graham: Sounds like I think it is amusing that we as a swan song! a Government have been twitted for being MR. HA'WKE (Northam-Leader of the in a hurry to start something, The Opposition) [8.32 p.m.): I want to deal honourable member mentioned, during mainly with the earier part of the motion the course of his fairly long speech, his moved by the Deputy Leader of the Oppo- own personal experience, and talked about sition. In the earlier part he draws atten- 1985-about 10 and 20 years ahead-and tion to the fact that the Government's said what was going to happen to Western proposals, as covered by this motion, re- Australia then. ceived inadequate consideration by Parlia- However, we did exactly the same thing ment. as he did in 1954 when the first stage of The motion goes on to emphasise the the plan was commenced with the build- far-reaching importance of the total pro- ing of the Narrows Bridge. We are criti- posals and underlines the fact, at least in cised for doing exactly the same as he an implied way, that such proposals did! I wonder really what would have should have received very careful and happened if there had been a change of searching attention by members of Par- government in 1962, because it is rather liament before parliamentary approval interesting to read an extract from The was given. West Australian of Friday, the 9th March, The Minister has tried to wipe away that 1962-1 presume it is correct-in which the part of the motion by almost entirely ig- policy speech of the Leader of the Opposi- noring it. It is true that in the earlier tion was reported. part of his speech he used the words "urgent" and "urgency" quite a few times. Mr. H. May: A very good one, tool It is also true he tried to establish a legit- Mr. WILD: The article is headed imate comparison between the Narrows "Hawke: We'd Ensure Fair Deal For All"., Bridge proposals as they were originally and as part of his policy speech he said- and the proposals in connection with the Labor would complete the building Mitchell Freeway. of the western switch road from the Surely every member of Parliament Narrows Bridge through to George- would know that no legitimate comparison street and across Wellington-street can lie in that direction. To compare within three years. the Mitchell Freeway proposals with the Mr. Graham: Hear, hear! There's pro- Narrows Bridge proposals as they were when at that stage Is like comparing a gress for you! rowing boat with the United States Ship Mr. WILD: Which way do you want it? the Enterprise. There is no comparison in Mr. Graham: He didn't say we would size in the two proposals; no comparison put the road up the middle of the Swan in relation to the planning, the execution River did he? -or, of course, the cost. So any com- parison the Minister tried to draw, as he Mr. WILD: Here is the Government did, in relation to these two proposals Is a being blamed: and yet we are pressing on very strange one indeed and one which as hard as is humanly possible with the would not, I think, convince or persuade money, men, and materials available, We any member. are being twitted by the Deputy Leader The Minister, in the last session of Par- of the Opposition; and yet his own leader, liament. made an endeavour to introduce a matter of only 2j years ago, said that the motion in connection with these pro- his Government would complete the build- posals on Wednesday, the 4th December. ing of the road within three years. A point of order was taken by the Deputy I say without fear of contradiction that. Leader of the opposition at the same tinme, irrespective of what happens, and press and the point was upheld. On the 5th on as we will, whatever Government is In December the Minister tried again, and power will be extremely lucky if this Is another Point of order was taken, and that [Wednesday, 16 September, 1964.1 989 was also upheld. So it was on Friday, the or majority opinion, or a decision from the 6th December, that the Minister introduc- committee, favouring the Government's ed the motion in proper order and made a proposals. speech in explanation of the proposal. The only qualification would have been The Minister today and this evening has that had the majority of the committee, emphasised the great importance of these or the committee unanimously, refused to proposals; yet when he introduced the mo- accept and approve the Government's tion into this House last year and immedi- Proposals, then the matter would have ately set out to explain to Parliament what had to be brought back to Parliament for the Proposals were all about so that he further consideration. could convince and persuade members to Surely, that offer was fair and reason- support the motion, he spoke-including able enough! It would not have involved the time he spent reciting the wording of the Government in one second's unneces- the motion-for exactly six minutes. sary delay; because, as we know from experience since then, no practical move Mr. W. Hegney: Two more than on the was made in connection with these pro- Workers' Compensation Act Amendment posals for several months after the matter Bill. was finally rushed through both Houses Mr. HAWKE: That is how important of Parliament on the 6th December, 1963. the proposal was thought to be on that So it is clearly established that members occasion. That is all the consideration he of Parliament, in the great majority, had gave to the position of members of Par- no opportunity at all of considering these ]iament who at that time were being call- proposals; no opportunity at all of in- ed upon, under great pressure, to make a vestigating them; no opportunity of trying decision for or against the motion. to reach a decision which could be based I would here emphasise that the day on upon merit and upon fact. All we had at which the Minister introduced this mo- the time was a five-minute speech made in tion and made that speech was the last a hurry by the Minister in partial explana- day of the session. Yet all the time the tion of what the proposals were about. Minister considered it was worth while The Minister's explanation was grossly spending to explain the motion and pro- inadequate to the situation, and therefore posals was less than six minutes if we de- it is no wonder that subsequently consider- duct the time he took to read the motion able public unrest and protest developed, before proceeding to make his very, very not only in relation to the reclamation of short speech in explanation of it. at portion of the Swan River, but also in relation to the fact that Parliament had So I1believe it is clear beyond any shad- been rushed into making a decision with- ow of doubt or contradiction, that the out any information of a worth-while Minister, on the 6th December last year, character being made available to mem- did not consider this proposal of much im- bers to enable them to make a reasonably portance; or. if he did, then he treated well-based decision. members of Parliament with at least semi- contempt; and he treated the public, of The Minister, In that portion of his course, very contemptuously, because he speech made tonight, pointed out that the gave the public no opportunity whatever Chief Traffic Engineer of the Main Roads to develop an opinion and to express that Department and the Town Planning opinion either for or against the proposals. Commissioner had each in turn visited the United States of America last year, and As the debate went on, and within the the Town Planner had in addition visited very strict time limits which were available England. However, from what the Min- to members in this House, members on the ister quoted from the report of the Chief Opposition side made moves to try to get Traffic Engineer covering his visit to the proposals investigated by a committee America, that engineer appeared to have of members of all parties represented in had at sort of roving general commission. the Parliament. A preliminary amend- The Minister was not able, or failed, to ment in that direction was moved by a quote anything from his report which in member of the Opposition. any sense, or in any degree, was related The Minister opposed the amendment to the Mitchell Freeway proposals. Pre- and made it clear that from his point of sumably, therefore, the engineer in ques- view and the Government's point of view tion did not, prior to going to America, the approval of Parliament was so urgently have any specific reference from the Min- required that not a moment's delay could ister to give particular attention and be contemplated. I then offered the Gov- inquiry to equivalent or comparative pro- ernment a suggestion which would not have posals to the Mitchell Freeway scheme as caused one moment's delay. In essence, they might have existed or have been in the offer was that the move for an all- development in any part of the United party investigating committee, if approved States of America. by Parliament, could have attached to it We, as members of the Opposition, in an authority from Parliament that the relation to this motion as now before the Government could go ahead with the pro- Chamber and as moved by the Deputy posals, provided there was a unanimous Leader of the Opposition, want the officers. (ASSEWMBY.] concerned to go abroad with a specific be a large-that is to say a long and a clear-cut reference of inquiry and in- high-embankment on the foreshore of vestigation related only to the Mitchell the Swan River. I have forgotten now Freeway proposals. whether it is in that area already re- Therefore the reasoning of the Minister claimed or that proposed at the time. for Works in relation to this part of the Only subsequently was it ascertained that motion Is not effective, even though he there would not be one of these mounds thought at the time it was overwhelming but four of them-one, from memory, ex- in the destructive effect It would have upon tending for the best part of half a mile: and this bank of mud, or sand, or what- that particular part of the motion as ever it is, is to rise to a height of 30 feet moved by the Deputy Leader of the Op- in the air, Talk about the Berlin Wall! position. That would be only a fraction of the I have dealt with the two phases of the height of this embankment which is to be matter which I wanted to say some words placed on The Esplanade of the City of upon. I conclude by emphasising again Perth that Parliament was not given any oppor- That was bad enough; but we subse- tunity at all, let alone reasonable oppor- quently found there was to be a three- tunity, last year to consider, study, and storey deck of road system. Here and now investigate these proposals. They were I suggest that even if this conglomnera- rushed in upon honourable members. tion of roads--usually referred to as a They were rushed through the Parliament, spaghetti pie-were needed for traffic and the decisions approving them were movement Purposes, is it necessary, or is decisions which were obtained only be- it commonsense, that everything-and I cause the Government was able to bring underline the word 'everything"-should into line all of the supporters of Its own be sacrificed and made subordinate to the two parties in each House of the Parlia- requirements of the movement of traffic? ment and get the necessary motion of Are there not any other values or interests approval through. I consider there is con- that should be borne in mind? siderable justification for the motion as I know that those people who have an moved, and I support it. interest in the heart of the city feel that the capital of Western Australia would not MR. GRAHAM (Balcatta) [8.48 pm.]: be complete unless there were multi-story- It is not my intention to devote any great ed skyscrapers In the heart of the City Of length of time to this matter, notwith- Perth; but as a number of us observed standing its transcending importance. The this evening, there is a great deal of de- note on which my leader concluded- centralisation taking place to the west of namely, the shabby way in which the Parliament House, and that is obvious. Government treated Parliament-is, In may New buildings are being constructed and view, the most important issue. old ones converted into offices to house I say that even if the inroads that are professional people, architects, those in the being made into the waters of the Swan medical profession, engineers, Surveyors, River were necessary beyond any doubt and other forms of consultants, and so on. whatsoever, the Government has a respon- sibility to this Surely it is desirable that the city Parliament, as set out in should spread rather than spring for ever a Statute, to apprise members of this upwards, unless it is to be on a very much Parliament-both Houses of it-in order restricted Plot-ratio of area to floor space. that they may make a decision yea or I have suggested before, and I repeat: In nay. my lay opinion ultimately the extent to It will be recalled that no plan giving which further development in the heart of any information was submitted to mem- the city-particularly in the upward direc- bers. Subsequently the Government, tion-can be undertaken will be governed und~r pressure, revealed a great deal more by the availability of footpath space. The than it did initally, when the Minister heart of the City of Perth-certainly the for Works occupied a few moments only shopping portion of it-would not average in a very bald outline of what was pro- three storeys in height, and it is amazing, Posed. Notwithstanding the protestations in certain portions-for instance, Barrack from the Opposition benches, and their Street-to note the smallness of the build- wish that there should be a full examina- ings in such a busy street in our capital tion, the Government used its strength and city. conscripted every one of its members to If we continue the present procedure support the motion which was before us. until such time as the buildings on those The Opposition, quite rightly, expressed lots reach eight, 10, or 12 storeys, then some doubts as to the necessity for the obviously the work force engaged in those full reclamation, and wanted to be assured buildings, added to the many thousands of -we wanted Parliament to assure Itself- people who will be patronising those busi- that the proposed steps were justified. ness establishments, will mean a doubling. However, the Government would have or even a trebling, of the number of People none of It. who even now are tripping over one an- Shortly afterwards, when Parliament other and finding it possible, only with the had risen, little by little the mud curtain greatest difficulty, to pass from one Point was raised and it was found there was to to another. Are the footpaths to be widened [Wednesday, 16 September, 1964.]99 991 by reducing the widths of the streets, or as it sought to put it over Parliament, and what? I suggest such action would be succeeded in so doing, has gone a step unthinkable. further; because I will guarantee the pub- So, whether we have public transport or lic of Western Australia are unaware of' private transport, whether it be by ferry the fact that it is a natural and inescap- or helicopter, or anything else, it will able complement to the work at present become physically Impossible for the people being undertaken that this strip of land, to move about the streets in order to do several chains wide, must be acquired by their business and their shopping. This filling in the Swan River from the Bar- proposition which the Government rushed rack Street jetty complex along the whole through Parliament when none of us, not of the northern bank of Perth Water, even those who support the Government, around the corner in the direction of the were apprised of the facts, does not cease Causeway, and almost to the Causeway it- where the Government placed it. You will self. Surely members of Parliament, if have noticed, Sir, that even in the last not members of the public-and I most week or so the Minister for Works was definitely include them-are entitled to most reluctant to disclose certain informa- know the ramifications of a scheme and tion to me and other honourable members what is involved in it! It is obvious, there- of Parliament. fore, that the Minister and the Govern- Here let me say one of the reasons for ment are not sure of themselves in hand- the very many questions which emanate ling this project. They are awvare of the principally from Opposition members is the public reaction and they have endeavoured evasive replies given to us by Ministers of to get this measure through by suppress- this Government. It becomes necessary ing as much information as they can. to ask not one but half a dozen different questions to plug every hole; and even Mr. Wild: I have nothing to suppress. then Ministers find a way of circumvent- Mr. GRAHAM: Why did I have to make ing the question that has been asked. So several efforts before I could obtain from we have to ask a further batch of ques- the Minister the acreage of the Swan River tions. that was to be reclaimed? Mr. Wild: What questions didn't I Mr. Court: Would you say there was any answer? suppression with the model of the scheme Mr. GRAHAM: Eventually, in answer to that was made public? the interjection of the Minister, he dis- No; but again the model closed to me-and I think it is the first Mr. GRAHAM: time it has been disclosed in this Parlia- stopped at the foot of Barrack Street. ment-that if the work is proceeded with Mr. Court: it appeared to me to be eastward along the Perth foreshore, as it pretty clear. must be when the present work is com- Mr. GRAHAM: Again, the through-traf- pleted, it will involve approximately an- fic on the highways side by side could not other 40 acres of reclamation of Perth proceed to the foot of Barrack Street Water. We were never told that before. sqiuare and then drop over the side into Mr. Wild: That was in the plan that was the river. Obviously, as is shown in the on the Table-the metropolitan region plan, the roadways would have to be con- plan. tinued eastwards. However, unless one had two plans-a plan showing what went Mr. GRAHAM: There would be a strip before and what went after, as it were- about 1/32nd of an inch in width shown be completely in the dark. on a small scale plan. one would You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that I asked Mr. Wild: Every plan is drawn to scale. the Premier if he would make available the You know that. relief model of the proposed complex on Mr. GRAHAM: Let us admit all that- the north side of the Narrows Bridge so and here let me tell the Minister that It that members might be in a position to was part of my job in a couple of Gov- refresh their memories when this Motion ernment departments to draw plans and was being debated. I asked the Premier know all about them and therefore, pos- for that information on two occasions sibly, I would be in the best position of without getting any satisfaction. Finally any member in this Parliament to read he stated he would reveal to this House plans--but it is beside the point. The the upshot of his conversations with the fact is that a question was asked-"How Minister for Works, but nothing has hap- much additional land or area of the river pened as a result of that. Again the Gov- will be reclaimed to enable the work to ernment is shrugging its shoulders at the proceed eastward towards the Causeway?" Opposition and at the weight of public The Minister did not supply me with an opinion in the hope of drawing the blinds answer in acres. He said, "As shown on down and giving as little information as plan 27 under the metropolitan region possible in an endeavour to get away with planning scheme", or whatever it was. this project. Of course, that was not an answer! So The unfortunate aspect of the whole, it necessitated additional questions to elu- situation is that when the work is done cidate the figure. The Government, just it is done forever and we write "finish' to. (ASSE3MLY.] the episode. Even if there were political permitted, these vehicles will be encouraged repercussions against the Government as to enter the City of Perth, instead of a result, one cannot unscramble eggs, so travelling several miles away from it. when the river is filled in it is filled Mr. Wild: You are going to divert them in forever. It could be that this is the that way; that is the object of the exercise. right course that is being followed: that Mr. GRAHAM: I have already said that there is no other sensible or logical course because it will be a limited access highway to follow. Previous Parliaments have de- -in other words, no traffic lights and no creed that we should declare ourselves intersections,-and because there will be a before reclamation work is undertaken, so speed limit of 50 miles an hour instead surely there is a bounden duty and of 35 miles an hour as on other roads, responsibility on the Government to supply obviously the motorist seeking to travel to the members of this Parliament with the the point I mentioned from Mt. Hawthorn fullest information. -that is, to Victoria Park-will take the on what grounds or pretext does the expressway instead of proceeding several Government demur; or on what grounds miles north of the city, perhaps in the does it hesitate? in the absence of the general direction of Buiwer Street, or scale model to which I referred a few further north along Walcott Street, in moments ago, and having to confess it is order to reach his destination. many months since I1 viewed that model, In other words, this high speed road It is extremely difficult to describe exactly system, to be placed virtually in the heart what one has in mind in any detail. of the city, and bisecting it as It expands Indeed, when there was quite a lengthy in the direction of Thomas Street, is going television session during which the Traffic to be a magnet which will attract people Engineer of the Main Roads Department to the city, instead of which the policy, was endeavouring, for the edification of surely, should be to disperse vehicular the viewing public, to point out with his transport generally away from the city. marker stick the various features of the We have some idea of the rate at which scheme and the necessity for them from motor vehicle registrations are increasing his point of view, there was still a rather throughout the State-and, in particular confusing picture in the minds of laymen; in the metropolitan area-and, once hav- even in the minds of those of us who ing allowed this pattern to develop, the have had something to do with plans and future will hold for us-as has been found models and matters of a similar nature. in other parts of the world-not three Again, on my recollection of some of levels of roads on that land on our fore- the statements that have been made, a shore, but four and five levels of roads. great deal of the reclamation of that until the whole of the city will be sub- portion of the river which is being re- merged as a result of this road speedway or expressway being built of roads one on claimed now was essential to enable the top of each other. So the whole of our highway from the northern suburbs to city, this hill upon which Parliament swing in an easterly direction. As there House stands and the placid waters of the was to be a speed limit of 50 miles an river, will be lost and gone forever. Surely hour on that highway-the same speed these parts of our city have some value! limit which applies on the Kwinana Free- Surely the aesthetics of a city mean some- way at present-obviously there would thing! Is there any necessity for people have to be a gradual sweep rather than living in the northern suburbs, and who a sharp corner. Everybody will agree desire to travel in the direction of Victoria with that from the point of view of traffic Park, to go through the heart of the city? engineering. However, I have racked my If they are experiencing a certain diffi- brains, conferred with other people, and culty in coming to the city, parking in asked questions in many places, but not the city, and moving along the footpaths yet have I been able to ascertain from in the city, might that not ultimately be anybody the necessity for providing a a good thing? speedway from the direction of Mt. 'Hawthorn and Osborne Park to skirt the Al ter all, it is because of certain of inner portion of the city in order to pro- these things I have mentioned that the ceed eastward along what is now known leading departmental stores have set up as Riverside Drive and so on to the giant shops at various strategic points in Cause- and about the metropolitan area. Had -way. they not done that at this time one might Why should a vehicle from Mt. Hawthorn well Imagine the hopeless chaos there or Osborne Park, seeking to travel to would be in the city. Members can Victoria Park, skirt the city between Par- imagine the position if everybody soughit liament House and the Perth Town Hall, to patronise the one Woolworth's store, and between the river foresbore and St. the one Boan's store, or the one Walsh's George's Terrace? Why should not such shop in Perth If those firm had not seen a vehicle travel a couple of miles north the necessity to spread their activities of the city in order to reach its destina- around the suburbs. Surely that sort of tion? Because of the limited access to the development is one that should be en- freeway, and the high speed limit that is couraged! [Wednesday. 16 September. 1964.]

I could say this in more detail and with wiould mean is that what was denied this greater exactitude if we had in this Parliament last November would now be Chamber during the debate a model to given it by way of opportunity to private which I might refer: a model that would members. The opportunity should be be handy, not only to the speaker but to provided to the private members of this other honourable members as well in order Parliamient--in other words, honourable that they might become familiar with the members other than those comprising the details of the matter; so that they might Ministry-to enable them to make doubly appreciate the point the particular speaker certain that the work being undertaken is was endeavauring to make. being properly undertaken. We would then It is grossly unfair of the Government know what we were doing. to deny this opportunity at close hand and If it is inevitable that we must lose this at short notice to speakers who care to portion of the Swan River, together with exercise their right to speak. It is unfair the additional 40 acres, which it is almost that they should be denied the right to Impossible to avoid if and when this work familiarise themselves once more with the i,, completed, then I suppose it will have details of the plan. This, of course. also to be. Seeing that this whole project Is refers to those who might feel disposed at the front door of the city, surely it is to support the Government In what It has not too much to ask of this or any govern- done. If they could refer to a relief ment that an opportunity he given for the model they would be able to ascertain closest scrutiny to be made of this under- whether or not there was some substance taking. in the contra -viewpoint that was being ex- I know that on both sides of the pressed. House we play party politics; and even So on all counts the Government has if the Premier will not admit it here been most remiss In its duty to this Par- openly, I thinlk he will adit to himself liament, to the people, and to the future in all fairness that Parliament was treated of our capital city. There has been con- most shabbily last November; that only siderable delay between the completion a fraction of the information subsequently of the Narrows Bridge and the commence- revealed was made available to this elected ment of this reclamation work. Because body, which is charged with the responsi- of that, I say there was no extreme bility of saying yea or nay. This Parlia- urgency; no reason why the Government ment was entitled to all the information; had to bulldoze a motion through this and yet its members knew practically Parliament; no reason why it should not nothing. The Minister for Works made have allowed an inquiry to be made on a no attempt at all to enlighten us. non-party or an all-party basis. Mr. Oldfield: He did not know himself. But after idling away its time for a Mr. GRAHAM: I would be prepared to couple of years the Government all of believe that there is every possibility of a sudden feels It is necessary to press that. It is a sorry state of affairs. There on regardless--regardless of Opposition is no doubt the Government has mnade up rights; regardless of the requirements of its mind; but I am asking and pleading the public; and with a complete disregard that it give us opportunity for a further of what its action may be doing in the review. way of destroying some of the most beauti- Before I conclude, let me say here and ful features of our capital city. now that those who arc expressing the Whether the motion submitted by the greatest concern are not agitators from Deputy Leader of the Opposition is exact the Trades Hall-those are the terms of endearment we hear from the other side in every detail is surely not the point Surely the point and the substance of the' of the House from time to time-but they matter is that the Government should are some of the old conservatives. The cease further activity instead of proceed- majority of them are those who are, or ing until it is too late. Whether the were, the backbone of the Liberal Party of officers submitted by the Deputy Leader Western Australia. They are the people of the Opposition-or whether some other who are expressing alarm and concern. people-should be delegated with a view They are the people who are worried and to seeing if there is another alternative disturbed about this action the Govern- is surely deserving of consideration. r ment is taking. ask the Premier and the Minister for Mr. Brand: How is it that they seem Works what they find wrong with the to have such great influence at this time suggestion. and yet you take no notice of them in They constitute the Government far other directions? the time being and they have availed Mr. GRAHAM: Such as? themselves of certain advisers. But surely Mr. Brand: The conservatives of this that is not the last word, because the State do not seem to matter to you at work now being undertaken will either make or deface the city for all time. The other times. carrying of this motion is not intended Mr. GRAHAM: I am pointing out that to be, and would not mean, a vote of if this were a party-political matter the no confidence in the Government. All it Opposition would be expected to criticise 137) [ASSEMB3LY.] or embarrass the Government, or some- Mr. Wild: You know quite a lot about thing of that nature. That is party some subjects, but not about this one. politics. But, on this occasion, not only is that occurring-however negatively the Mr. GRAHAM: I only wish I had inter- Government cares to describe the action of jected when the Minister was speaking, to the Opposition-but, in addition, people of enable him to indicate the necessity for considerable standing who normally, and the establishment of the road from the Probably throughout their lives, have been northern suburbs, to bring traffic from the bitterest enemies of the Labor Party many suburbs in the north-west quadrant and the truest friends of the Liberal Party, on to the expressway between Parliament are the people who are assuming the lead House and the General Post Office, and and who are most vehement in their con- then for the traffic to turn in an easterly demnation of the Government's attitude. direction to travel between Perth Water They go much further than the Opposi- and the General Post Office. Traffic will tion. They say the work should not be be attracted to follow that route; whereas undertaken. The Opposition asks that the -today that traffic travels several miles whole proposition be looked at fairly and north of the city and does not come into squarely. it at all. If that is good planning and common sense then I do not know what Mr. Brand: Did not the same conserver good planning is. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, of the river say that when the original you will be indulgent enough to allow the reclamation was undertaken by your Gov- Minister for Works to make a lengthy ernment? interjection; if so, I am prepared to defer Mr. GRAHAM: Not that I am aware of. to enable him to do that. Mr. Bovell: You have a most convenient Mr. Wild: Look at the model in the memory. next day or two, and you will see that Mr. GRAHAM: At least I have a mem- your argument is completely wrong. ory! Mr. Rowberry: Better than none at all. Mr. GRAHAM: Not only have I seen the model twice, but I also watched Mr. Brand: Exactly. the half-hour session when Mr. Davies Mr. GRAHAM: There has been no con- (the traffic engineer) and Prof essor demnation of the present Government, be- Stephenson were present and endeavoured cause a bridge across the Narrows was to describe what it was all about. I sug- absolutely essential. In fact, the project gest that I have done my best, not only had been spoken about for a century, and by visual evidence, but also by listening it took a Labor Government to commence to an expert explain the position. What a long overdue need. I wanted was a relief model to be made Mr. Brand: Who Bet the pattern that available in this Chamber so that the has been followed? Minister would not be able to say any- thing irresponsible and get away with it. Mr. GRAHAM: A Labor Government There would be a model and we could commenced to construct the Narrows show him up for saying anything at all, Bridge; but because it was built, that did not mean a whole road complex, encroach- no matter how irresponsible it was, which ing further into the Swan River, bad to he is now doing and getting away with it. be undertaken. The important thing was if the Minister does not know there is that a bridge had to be constructed; and an expressway following the routes I have in order to do that, and for the bridge to indicated, then I say he has not seen the give access in a wide direction, a certain model. portion of the Swan River had to be re- I endeavoured to conclude before, but claimed. Whether too much, too little, or was provoked by the Premier into con- the right amount of the river was re- tinuing. I now conclude by expressing the claimed does not matter for this exercise; hope that the Government, and members but some reclamation of the river was sitting on the Government side, will not essential for that purpose. regard this as a vote of no confidence, but In this motion we are dealing with the will regard it as an express desire initiated point, not of crossing the Swan River and by the Deputy Leader of the opposition giving an outlet on the city side, but of that Parliament should be more fully in- a process which will bring about an en- formed; that we should make absolutely tanglement of roads, and which will have certain that the work being undertaken the effect in several respects of attracting is indispensable; and that there is no other traffi to the city-traffic which normally, way than for the road system to be placed and which at the present time, does not where it is in the manner proposed: and, come within two miles of the Perth Town further, that the additional 40 acres of Hall. reclamation east of the Barrack Street Mr. Oldfleld: Not only attracting traffic, jetty is inescapable. but channelling It through the city. I repeat as I conclude: If the Govern- Mr. GRAHAM: Channelling it through ment completes the work which it com-- the city, because of the advantages of menced several months ago, then neither, travelling on the road system. it, nor any succeeding Government, will [Wednesday, 16 September. 1964.J 995 be able to obviate the necessity of en- and inferred that the reclamation of many croaching still further into Perth Water. acres by his Government was essential. The In other words, whatever is undertaken same people are advising us today as ad- in the present project, an additional 40 vised the previous Government. The same acres will have to be reclaimed. I sup- town planners were planning; and we are pose that gives a certain measure of satis- still working on the same principles that f action to the present Government; be- were established. Therefore I cannot under- cause if there is a change of Government stand why there should be all the con- and the Proposed road system is with us-- sternation at the present time about this all but complete-then no matter how dis- part of the plan as against that which ex- tasteful it is it will be incumbent on the isted when the member for Melville was in Government of the day, as there will be charge of the Public Works Department. no alternative, to fill in another 40 acres Mr. Graham: The same advisers, but the of the Swan River. Should such an occa- Government does not necessarily accept sion arise, I suppose the present Minister everything they submit. for Works will be able to have a little fun by playing party politics. Mr. BRAND: The Government of the The decision is being made at the pre- past accepted, by and large, this advice- sent time; and if the Government votes Mr. Graham: I like that "by and large". against this motion, then It is votig in Mr. BRANDl: -and so have we. I say favour, and committing successive Gov- that if this model were brought to this ernmnents to vote in favour, of an addi- H-ouse and could be pushed in here by some tional 40 acres of the Swan River to be manner or means, every member would get reclaimed, in addition to the present re- up and express an opinion as to the model clamnation. and off er advice about the detail and we MR. BRAND (Greenough-Premler) would not make one bit of progress. (9.28 pm.): It is not my intention to Mr. Graham: That is why from the start speak at any length. you have tried to keep everybody in the Mr. Graham: It was not mine either dark, is it? when I started. Mr. BRAND: Ultimately we would have Mr. BRANDl: The honourable member to obtain the advice of the people who are for Balcatta endeavoured to imply this was trained to give it. This Government has an all-party, impartial discussion, and already sent Mr. Davies to the United that In the event of a change of States, and it is not so long since he re- suggested turned. I have had recent discussions Government and a Labor Government be- with him and he intimated that even in ing returned to office, It would find itself some cities in America they are rather in an embarrassing position, because it envious of the fact that we have an overall would be forced to undertake certain re- planning authority, which we know as the clamnations and adjustments, which were Metropolitan Regional Planning Commit- forced on it because of the decisions being tee. They are envious because they look made at present. upon this as some of the most up-to-date What I want to point out is that the town planning legislation of its kind in whole scheme of the western switch road, respect of overall planning. as associated with the Narrows Bridge. was decided upon by the previous Gov- We have had Mr. Lloyd in the United ernment, not forgetting that a committee States attending town planners' confer- representing all parties in this House ac- ences: and this time last year we had Mr. cepted the principle way back in the time Aitken in the Old Country. Therefore when the Deputy Leader of the Opposi- does it seem necessary we should send tion was Minister for Works. By and more engineers away for the special Pur- large we all realised there was to be a pose of conferring on this plan? On top crossing of the Swan River in a certain of the information which has been brought and certain reclamation was to back by the people I have mentioned, we direction, have had the consultants, De Leuw Cather be undertaken. & Company, whose engineers are working If my memory serves me correctly, Pro- in Paris and in most of the States of Am- fessor Stephenson did make a public erica; and, from time to time, we receive statement, pointing out that it was essen- the latest information that is available. tial to have something like the western switch road, with varying features, to dis- If this motion is carried, I can only see tribute the traffic if the capacity of the it as another means of unnecessarily delay- Narrows Bridge was to be reached and ing the urgent decisions that have to be used to its maximum. I am sure all made if we are going to cope with the thinking people accepted that, and the ever-increasing traffic problem. present plan was Prepared on that basis. Mr. Graham: You held off for a couple The honourable member for Balcatta en- of years; why was that? deavoured to criticise the Government for Mr. BRAND: The delay was occasioned reclaiming 19 acres of the river which, he after the completion of the Narrows Bridge would have us believe, was not essential; for the general replanning by De Leuw 996 996ASSflZBLY.

Cather & Company and our own engineers He is speaking, of course, of traffic in in order to go on with the next stage. England. Continuing- No-one can deny that. There is another source of fascina- Mr. Graham: Should not planning take tion. We are nourishing at immense place simultaneously with the construction cost a monster of great potential des- of the bridge? tructiveness. And yet we love him dearly, Regarded in its Collective Mr. BRAND: Why not? You were in aspect as "the traffic problem" the office. motor car is clearly a, menace which can spoil our civilization. But trans- Mr. Graham: You were the people who lated into terms of the particular opened it. vehicle that stands in our garage (or more often nowadays, is parked out- Mr. BRAND: I do not know whether the side our door, or someone else's door), honourable member for Balcatta meant to we regard it as one of our most say that; but whilst the bridge and the treasured possessions or dearest ambi- freeway were being built by the previous tions, an immense convenience, an Government, I presume certain planning expander of the dimensions of life, an must have been going on; otherwise the instrument of emancipation, a symbol Minister and other people associated with of the modern age. To refuse to him fell down on the job. I am sure it accept the challenge it Presents would was going on and it went on after the be an act of defeatism, The task it bridge was opened until we reached the sets us is no greater, and perhaps less, point where -we could begin the implemen- than was presented to the rural tation of the plan a little further. England of two centuries ago by the Industrial Revolution followed by the Mr. Graham: You were there five years railway, If we are to meet our chal- before you started further reclamation. lenge with a greater balance of gain over loss than our great- grandfathers Mr. BRAND: In regard to this planning met theirs, we must meet it without it became quite plain certain reclamation confusion would have to be made; and this informa- over purpose, without tion was given to the Minister late in the timidity over means, and above all session of last year. He brought a resolu- without delay. tion here, and it was carried by this House; I think England has a greater problem and, I think, by the Council. He gave the than we have; but surely this Is a chal- information, in short, that it was essential lenge to the Government of the day! I we receive preliminary approval for this think we would all agree with that. I say reclamation in order to avoid being at that if the motion were carried it would least 12 months behind with our pro- unnecessarily delay the planning and thne gramme. Progress which we envisage in this very important matter. A lot has been said about the reclama- tion of the river and about the lack of The honourable member for Balcatta has planning; but what is conveniently being talked about the ring road, and about the overlooked is the problem of the increasing traffic coming into the town from certain traffic difficulties. We do not seem to ack- suburbs if it is to cross over to Victoria nowledge at this stage that the rank-and- Park. We cannot decide that here. These file citizen who owns a motorcar will soon experts, who have studied the whole situa- find himself in a, very frustrating situation tion, are the people who can tell us about unless some real action is taken. this; and if it is obvious to the I heard the Deputy Leader of the Opposi- honourable member for Balcatta, surely tion quoting from a book Traffic in Towns it is obvious to them! The solution which I believe is being accepted In many of many of the problems is not go- countries as a textbook and basis for ing to be that we will cross from modern planning. Mr. Buchanan-I under- one point to another by the shortest means, stand he is the author-has been able to because that will not be possible. The lay- put in package form some of tbe main out of the plan will mean the avoidance principles of modemn traffic planning re- of intersections and the establishment of quirements. As the Deputy Leader of the one-way traffic. I am sure that in the year Opposition said, there are Some very pro- 2000 there will not only be plans similar minent people on the committee respons- to the one which we envisage for this ible for this report; and in the last para- feature of Perth, but there will be many of graph of the foreword, Mr. Buchanan them around the river and in Fremantle said- and, indeed, in many provincial towns. It is lmpossbile to spend any time on Mr. Toms: We will be safe in 2000. 1 the study of the future traffic in towns, do not know about the rest of the pedes- even so short a time as we have been trians. able to give, without being at once appalled by the magnitude of the Mr. BRAND: I do not know whether the emergency that is coming upon us and honourable member for Bayswvater has inspired by the challenge it Presents. made any study of this problem, but if be [Wednesday, 16 September, 1964.] 997? has any worth-while suggestions to make Mr. BRAND: It is the very basis of the I am sure the engineers will be only too work we are doing. We have just approved, happy to hear them. on the recommendation of the town plan- Mr. Toms: I made a suggestion last ses- ner and of the Commissioner of Main sion, but you did not listen to it. Roads, of the calling of applications for important posts in the Town Planning De- Mr. H. May: The honourable member partment.' I think the number to be ap- for Bayswater is quite sure where he will pointed is five. We do not know where be in the year 2000. these top planners are to come from. They Mr. BRAND: That was another move are very difficult to get because their ser- which was designed to delay. vices are in great demand throughout the Mr. Toms: It was designed to help, not world. However, these officers are to be delay. highly paid, and the Government is very Mr. BRAND: I want to say the Govern- willing to pay them in order that the next ment will accept the responsibility for the stage of planning necessary to ensure a decisions it has made; and I am sure, just sound plan and good traffic movement is as the decisions on the Narrows Bridge provided for the future of Perth. have proved of immense value to us up I am satisfied that the motion moved by to this stage, that it is up to the Govern- the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, how- ment of the day to accept the challenge ever well intentioned, could only, if passed, and answer the criticism, whether it be by mean a further unnecessary delay; and conservatives; or as the honourable mem- any delay will mean greater chaos in the ber for Balcatta said, put up by agita tors not far distant future for the motorists of from the Trades Hall. It does not mat- this country. I oppose the motion. ter. It is up to us to get on with the most modern planning possible; and, let MR. OLDFIELD (Maylands) [9.45 me say, not continue to send people around ps.J.: I feel that speakers from the Gov- the world without getting on with the ernment side, including the Premier him- plan. We will have to continue to send self, have lost sight of the history of the engineers overseas to keep in touch with town planning scheme for the metropolitan latest developments. However, we live in region and certain cogent features sur- changing times: and no matter how rounding it. modern and decisive we may be, what is for today could be old-fashioned If we go back to the years 1948 to 1950. suitable or thereabouts, we will recall that in 10 years' time. Professor Gordon Stephenson was visiting We have just looked at a film which en- Western Australia for a few short weeks visages the time when everyone in Eng- in each year to evolve a plan on the facts land will have a motorcar-everyone. I as then known as to future population and suppose this might be called the optimum. traffic problems, to meet the amount of The planners cannot anticipate that any- traffic anticipated. Then, when the late one will want more than one car, so they Gilbert Fraser became Minister in 1954, will be able to Plan accordingly. because of the way the situation was get- I have no doubt from all I have seen ting out of hand and because the plan was that our own town planner, the traffic not completed, he arranged for Professor engineers, and others associated with this Stephenson to come to Western Australia very difficult problem are working towards for a period of 12 to 18 months. He was giving Perth in Western Australia the most to remain here until he had completed the modern town Plan Possible and the latest plan. traffic devices in order to ensure the full Mr. Brand: We made the selection of use of the private car and also the general sae transport of the individual. I under- Professor Stephenson. stand from all surveys made, not only here Mr. OLDPIELD: Obviously the Premier but also in Leeds in England, that it is was not listening to me. I said that Pro- aimed eventually, by careful and sound fessor Stephenson was coming out for a planning, to get to the stage where 34 per few short weeks each year. He was invited cent. of the people-I think that was the by the McLarty-Watts Government, but figure-would use private cars. It is pos- remained here for only six to seven weeks sible by sound planning to devise means by each year, during which time he was try- which the balance of the people using the ing to evolve a plan. It was the late Gilbert public transport to get them from their Fraser who arranged for him to remain homes to their places of work- until such time as the Plan was completed. Mr. Graham: Encourage them to dis- Mr. Brand: He was the Minister of the perse, not congregate. day. Mr. BRAND: Anyone would think the Mr. GLDFIELD: Yea; but instead of honourable member for Balcatta was say- having him out for a couple of months a ing something which had not been thought year, Mr. Fraser arranged for hinm to re- of. main in order to get the Plan Completed. Mr. Graham: Why not do something Mr. Graham: He took a fancy to the about It? Place and stayed here. [ ASSEMBLY]I

Mr. OLDFIELD: Yes. Hle came back. areas are developing in that direction; but later on. If we study the plan of Professor there is a state of imbalance with regard Stephenson, which was finally presented to to the original plan. us in 1955, we must also analyse the reasons for certain proposals he made. He We find that in the suburbs to the east stated very clearly in his book the reasons of Perth, on the south-eastern side of the for his decisions. However, we find that in river, industry and residential areas have the period-almost 10 years-which has developed at a much greater pace than was elapsed since Professor Stephenson com- anticipated. Therefore I would have pleted his studies and presented his find- thought that at this juncture consider- ings in book form, the population trend able thought would be given not so much has not followed the pattern anticipated, to the western switch road-essentlal and this especially applies to the question though it may be for taking people from of where people were going to live. the north of the city to the south-but to the proposed ring road, which is to be Suburbs and areas of development have situated somewhere in the vicinity of sprung up although they were not antici- Aberdeen Street or Newcastle Street, to pated at that time; and, on the other hand, have it resited somewhere north to, say, areas which it was thought would go ahead Buiwer Street or as far north as Walcott have remained somewhat static. Likewise Street. with the development of industrial areas: those which it was anticipated would de- We should have a bridge over the Swan velop have not developed; and industries River eastwards of the Causeway to re- which were not even envisaged at that lieve the Causeway of present traffic, and time have been established. to Provide for traffic wanting to travel from the north-western suburbs to the Mr. Brand: What industrial areas have north-eastern, eastern, and south-eastern not gone ahead? suburbs. That would appear to be the Mr. OLDPIELD: r will point out one logical trend, with the rate of traffic to the Premier. I do not think the in- wanting to proceed from point A to point dustrial area of Kwinana has gone ahead B or from point B to point A, when we at anywhere near the pace envisaged in speak of the eastern suburbs and north- 1954-1955. Other industries which were western areas. to be allied with and based on the Swin- ana refinery have not came to pass. It It requires only a little bit of observa- was anticipated in those days that Swin- tion to see what is happening. The Mt. ana would virtually become a satellite city. Lawley subway has overreached its cap- It was envisaged that the twin towns of acity. It has more than reached satura- Medina and Calista, and the surrounding tion point in the handling of traffic- areas, would grow in population to some- traffic which, in the main, comprises think like 30,000 to 40,000 and form an- drivers who wish to travel from the north- other Elizabeth, such as exists In South western areas to the south side of the Australia. river, and vice versa, at peak hours in the morning and afternoon. Some drivers use But what do we find? People did the subway and go down East Parade and not want to live there after the State Plain Street to the Causeway: whilst Housing Commission had completed the others use the Mt. Lawley subway and the homes and the refinery had been estab- Garrett Road bridge, and vice versa. lished, and the Housing Commission had to make the homes there available to aged We are building up a bottleneck. It is pensioners in order that it could get oc- virtually a two-lane road. Traffic from the cupants for the homes so that they would Midland Junction area is being held up, not remain vacant. That is what hap- and it is almost impossible for it to get pened: the people did not want to live through. It is virtually impossible for where the planners of the day thought drivers to use the Causeway in the morn- they would wish to live. ings, and the alternative route is possibly If development of housing, industry, and to go down old Government Road, which commerce does not go ahead on the lines is now known as Walter Road, and then envisaged by the planners, it is obvious through Morley Park, to get a clear run that the plan must be altered somewhere into the city. along the road to meet the demands which At this stage it is most essential that we occur, particularly if the trend Is con- should proceed immediately with the ring trary to what was envisaged. road north of the city; and there should I realise that In the early days the be a third. bridge across the Swan River in plan was brought into being because it the vicinity of the existing Bunbury rail- was thought there would be a huge in- way bridge. That would relieve the con- dustrial and residential area in the Ewin- gestion and would do far mare good at this ana. district. Likewise, it was thought juncture than proceeding with the full there would be a large residential and in- plan of the western switch road as pro- dustrial area in the north-western. sub- posed, which is to bring the traffic from urbs. A certain amount of light industry the western suburbs through the city, has developed there. Certain residential along what Is now known as Riverside [Wednesday. 18 September, 1964.] 999

Drive to the Causeway, once again throw- State felt, as we felt, that the considera- ing traffic on to the Causeway which it tion given to the proposition, when it was can ill afford to carry. first brought to this Parliament in Decem- I understand the Causeway is carrying ber last year, was inadequate to the a greater volume of traffic at the present magnitude of the proposition? If the Gov- time than is the Narrows Bridge. It does erment at the time had regarded It as not need a lot of imagination to realise of a fraction of the importance that it is that we must change our plan if antici- obvious it now regards this motion, the pated trends do not come to pass. Having chances are that the motion would never made a close study of the proposals when have been moved. they were introduced in 1955, and having Only the sketchiest information was watched and awaited the developments supplied to the House at the time. The with interest, I am well and truly aware matter was under discussion on the last that those developments have not occurred day of the session; and is it to be wondered as anticipated. at that people, generally, were dissatisfied I know that it is very nice for planners with the consideration that had been given to lay down a plan and to say that we to the proposal? I do not think anybody must get people to follow the plan, to live could successfully argue that a speech of and work here, and to say that industry less than ten minutes by the Minister in must go to this or that section. But it charge of the motion was satisfactory in does not come about. One of the reasons the circumstances; and when attempts is land speculation. That could be were made to ensure that reasonable con- one reason. People will not release sideration could be given to the matter, land. They want to hold on to it for a the Government used its numbers to pre- few extra years because it might be of vent such consideration from taking place. value for subdivision for residential sites. So it has only itself to blame if consider- We must develop industry and residential able dissatisfaction subsequently arose. areas where land is available; and by From time to time during the discussion 'available" I mean where it is for sale reference has been made to a scale model for that purpose by the owners at the time. which was supposed to indicate the nature I feel that I must support the motion. of the proposals. I ask You, Mr. Acting In conclusion, I wish to say that it is Speaker (Mr. Heal): Of what possible value rather futile to try to choke the streets is it in order to determine what the Gov- more than they are now being choked, ernment's proposals are? The scale model just in an effort to try to do something was constructed months ago; yet in August, spectacular. The Oovernment would be when I asked the Minister for Works: well advised, if it has the future of the 'Will he table the plan drawn to scale State at heart, to give away trying to be which shows the position and extent of spectacular. It should do something prac- the embankinents?" -and that is all I tical and down to earth; something which wanted to know: the position and extent is going to alleviate the situation which of the embankments which are on the we are rapidly approaching. scale model-I was told I could not get that plan because there were still aspects MR. TONKIN (Melville-Deputy Leader in planning and design which must be of the Opposition) [9.58 p.m.]: The pro- resolved with the region planning author- posal to which the motion under discussion ity, the Perth City Council, and the other relates is probably the most far-reaching authorities affected. in its effects, and the costliest project, If I cannot get a plan showing the which the Parliament of Western Australia position and extent of the embankments, has ever had to consider since its estab- of what earthly use is a scale model which lishment. shows those embankments? Therefore, so In the ultimate the proposal, of which far as the scale model is concerned, we the Mitchell Freeway forms a part, will can forget about it. It is of no advantage cost many millions of pounds. The esti- whatever; and apparently this amounts to mate given for the Mitchell Freeway itself an admission by the Government that It is from £8,000,000 to £10,000,000. When does not know where the embankments the other portions of the inner ring road will go finally and what their extent will are taken into consideration, it can easily be; because they are still the subject of be seen that the final cost will be multiples discussion between a number of authorities. of £10,000,000; and the effect upon the Does not that lend point to my asser- city's development and the aesthetics of tion that the Government proceeded with the city will be very great indeed. this proposal before it knew where it was It is those two considerations which going? Because it is still giving considera- cause me to say-because I firmly believe tion to the position of embankmnents, and it to be true-that there has never before the extent of the embankments embodied been a project of such magnitude and in the plan. I ask you, Sir, why it was importance as the one to which this necessary for the Minister for Works to motion relates; and having that in mind, attribute to me approval for reclamation is it any wonder that many people In the which was about double the area that I 1000 1000ASSAMLY.] actually approved. What was his rea- Mr. TONKIN: Not anything like that! son? Do not tell me the Minister did not Why does the Minister persist in saying know that what he was saying was not something which is untrue? factual! Therefore, why did he set out Mr. Wild: Why do you persist in saying to misrepresent the position? something that is more untrue? Mr. Wild: The position was not misrep- Mr. TONKIN. Well, it is up to the Min- resented, Don't worry! ister to prove his point, if he will: but he Mr. TONKIN: Well, we will see. Did not never does. the Minister say that I was responsible Mr. O'Neil: How many acres were in- for more than 100 acres of reclamation? volved in the Swinana Freeway-the three Mr. Wild: Yes. miles of the Freeway along Melville Water? Mr. TONKIN: Is the Minister then as- serting that that is ini accordance with Mr. TONKIN: In discussions with a cer- fact? tain gentleman during the tea suspension, he assured me there would not be more Mr. Wild: Yes. than five. Mr. TONKIN: Well, when I prove to the Minister from his own diagram that it is Mr. Wild: Don't be silly! not so, will he retract? Mr. TONKIN: Five miles of additional reclamation from the Narrows Bridge to Mr. Wild: There is no need to. Canning Bridge. Mr. TONKIN: The situation is this: The Mr. Q 'Neil: You mean five acres do you original proposal for reclamation in Perth not? Water was for 37 acres, to which I gave approval. It was subsequently necessary Mr. TONKIN* Yes, five acres. to increase that amount because when we Mr. O'Neil: It is three miles long. obtained advice from overseas it was sug- gested to us that in proposing to plate the Mr. TONKIN: I do not tare how long bridge at right angles to the bank of the it is. I was told that the total reclama- river we were not achieving the best ap- tion there was about five acres. We can pearance for the bridge. It was suggest- add another four to five acres reclaimed ed to us that it would be better if the for the South of Perth Yacht Club, and bridge were put on the skew, and that ne- to that we add an area that was reclaimed cessitated more reclamation than was or- for the construction of the bridge itself. iginally anticipated. That represents the total reclamation. But My recollection of the matter-and it is if one looks at this map I have before me, some Years now since it occurred-is that one will notice some reclamation on Heirisson Island that was carried out in we had to step up the 3? acres to some- thing a little in excess of 50 acres, be- 1949. cause of that necessity to place the bridge Mr. Wild: That was not included in the on the skew. The Minister, in arriving at total; don't worry! his 100 acres, included reclamation which Mr.* TONKIN: I challenge the Minister his own Government has carried out. -and he is in a position to get the in- Mr. Wild: No he didn't! formation from the department-to quote Mr. TONKIN: Oh, Yes he did! the figure for each piece of reclamation. Mr. Wild: You put a question on the Mr. Wild: No; he did not. I did not do notice paper tomorrow and you will get the reckoning. it; don't worry! Mr. TONKIN: Yes you did! Mr. TONKIN: Oh yes! Why is it neces- Mr. Wild: No I didn't! sary for me to put the question on the Mr. Rowberry: He couldn't. notice paper? Mr. Wild: How are you going to get it Mr. TONKIN: Fortunately the dates are if you don't put a question on the notice placed on this diagram showing when the paper? pieces of reclamation were cantied out. Unfortunately, although the total recla- Mr, TONKIN: If I put a question on the mation at the end of the Narrows Bridge notice paper the Minister will say it is is shown in the one colour, and the figures sub judice. "11958" appear in the middle, all that re- Mr. O'Neil: Is the Kwinana Freeway two clamation was not carried out by the chains wide? If it is, the reclamation repre- Hawke Government: because at the south- sents 48 acres. ern part of it Is the current 19 acres of reclamation being carried out by this Gov- Mr. TONKIN: NO: it is nowhere near ernment. two chains wide. Up to Canning Bridge. the greatest width of the Kwinana Free- Mr. Wild: There were 100 acres without way is near the bridge itself, and I very that, much doubt that it is two chains wide. Mr. TONKIN: No there were not. Mr. O'Neil: if it is only one chain wide Mr. Wild: Yes there were! it is 24 acres. [Wednesday, 16 September, 1964.3 100100

Mr. Wild: Does the honourable mem- Mr. Wild: I know YOU would never be ber realise that on the 10thi August, 1955, shocked! he answered a question asked by Mr. Yates Mr. TONKIN: I cannot be any more cer- -who was then the member for Canning tain that the Minister would tell me the -and stated that the reclamation on the truth about that than he did about the Narrows was approximately 43 acres? companies regarding which I asked ques- That was the reclamation for the Nar- tions the other day. rows Bridge itself. Mr. Wild: Oh, dear! Red-herring Joe! Mr. TONKIN*: That is in accordance with what I have just told the Minister. Mr. TONKIN: No red herrings at all! In fact, I went a bit beyond that. I said The Minister should talk about red herr- 50 acres. What does that prove? As a ings when he hides behind a plea of matter of fact, a few moments ago I told sub iudtce in order to dodge a question! the Minister that the original proposal By way of illustration, the Minister re- for the bridge itself involved 37 acres, fuses to answer questions which he regards which we subsequently increased to as being sub iudftce when he should know slightly over 50. Now he tells me it was that any member of the public can go 43 acres. to the Companies Office and obtain all Mr. O'Neil: Your estimate of slightly the information that was asked for. over 50 acres is actually 68 acres to the Mr. Wild: Well, w6hy didn't you? Why Perth end of the Narrows Bridge. ask me? Mr. Brand: The fact remains that, what- Mr. TONKIN: Because it would be ever it is, it compares unfavourably with readily available to you. 19 acres. Mr. Wild: And so it is to you. Mr. Graham: Plus 40. Mr. TONKIN: The Minister comes here Mr. Brand: Plus 40? with a subterfuge that he cannot answer Mr. Graham: Yes, 19 acres plus 40. a question because it is sub judice. I would have thought more bf the Minister Mr. Brand: We have not reclaimed 40 If be had said, "I consider the bonourable acres. member should go to the Companies Office Mr. TONKIN: In fact, what the Minister and get the information for himself." is endeavourin~g to attribute to me in the Mr. Wild: Doesn't the honourable mem- total amount of what he called reclama- ber realise that I am involved in this? tion, was not, of course, reclamation at That I was cited in the Act as the Mini- all in many instances, because it was cov- ster for Works? ering up ground that was not the river. Mr. TONKIN: Not in regard to that s- So that is not reclamation. If one is fill- pact. It. was straightout subterfuge to ing in the river, as the Minister is now do- avoid answering the question. ing over the whole area of 19 acres, and as he proposes to do with a further 40 Mr. Brand: Get on with the subject acres, that is a different proposition alto- of solving the traffic problem! gether. Mr. TONKIN: The Premier, to whom I Mr. Wild: It will be done by some Gov- express appreciation for participating in ernnment In 1970 or beyond. the debate, seemed to think it was a waste of time to send officers abroad to gain Mr. TONKIN: But your decision on the information. Mitchiell Freeway and the inner ring road Mr. Wild: Far from it! He indicated makes the other area of reclamation three that have gone overseas in the lost inevitable and inescapable. 12 months. Mr. Brand: The same as it wvas with the 19 acres you reclaimed. Mr. TONKIN: The Government did not hesitate to bring Sograh here to advise Mr. TONKIN: No it was not! it on tidal power in the north. Mr. Brand: Of course It was! Mr. Wild: In the same way as we send engineers overseas for information. Mr. TONKIN: In fact, the files will show that I declined to approve of further Mr. TONKIN: And when engineering reclamation. The Minister laughs. problemns arise such as the defects in the Mr. Wild: When one has the file it is foundations of the Government buildings, instead of getting the advice of our own a great advantage. capable engineers on the set-up- Mr. TONKIN. Well, it certainly does not Mr. Wild: It got the best brains in Aus- show that I did approve. tralia. Mr. Wild: I suggest that you ask to- Mr. TONKIN: morrow what area was reclaimed on the -the Government has to get someone from the Eastern States to freeway, and you will get a shock. advise it. Mr. TONKIN: I will not get a shock, Mr. Brand: Are you not arguing against because the Minister Says all sorts of yourself? That Is, that we have the best things. brains here in regard to traffic problems. 1002 1002[ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. TONKIN:, What I am saying is that "We must keep the five major fac- if the Government considered there was tors-land use, roads, transport, park- no-one capable in Western Australia of ing and beautification-in continual advising it on a problem such as the balance," he said. 'weakness in building foundations, its case The plan to reorganise town plan- is pretty weak when it opposes a sugges- ning staff had come after months of tion to send top engineers abroad in order top-level talks, resulting in recom- to observe latest trends In traffic con- trol. mendations by a special Committee. It it came after months of consideration. Mr. Wild;, That is in no way comparable. it looks as though it must have started Mr. Brand: We brought the best brains after the deputation to the Premier at here; people who are advising the Govern- the showgrounds, because at that stage ment of New South Wales. he was unaware of the need for it. Mr. TONKIN: On the occasion when we Mr. Brand: He was quite well aware of had a deputation to the Premier at the the situation. It was obvious to anybody. Showgrounds, and I mentioned the inade- quacy of the Town Planning Department. Mr. TONKIN: It was a strange thing the Premier was aghast at the suggestion. that when I made the statement that that was one of the weaknesses in the Mr. Brand: That was not so. proposal we were considering, the Premier Mr. TONKIN: Oh yes it was! Because had to turn to the Town Planning Com- the Premier turned to the Town Planning missioner and ask him was that so. Commissioner and asked him if that were Mr. Brand: Exactly; I wanted him to the position. answer the question. Mr. Brand: Of course I did! And who Mr. TONKIN: If the Premier had a was better able to answer It? special committee to go into the need for Mr. TONKIN: So it was not news to the augmenting the staff, he would have Premier. known it was so. So it was obvious that what was said then, and what was said Mr. Brand: It was not. when this motion was moved, was the Mr. TONKIN: If it was not, then why true position-that the town planning did the Premier ask him? capacity had not kept pace with the main Mr. Brand: Because I have advisers, roads planning capacity. Just as you had. Mr. Brand: It had up to that point of Mr. TONKIN, Af ter I moved the time. motion with which we are now dealing Mr. TONKIN: It could not up to that there appeared in The West Australian point of time- of the 8th September the following state- ment:- Mr. Brand: It had. Five Will Plan Future Perth Mr. TONKIN: -because it takes two The five senior town planning months to get a simple subdivision experts to be sought gradually by the through the Town Planning Board. Government will work only on long- Mr. Brand: That is nonsense. There range planning in the Perth metro- is no basis for this argument whatever. politan region. Town Planning Commissioner J. E. Mr. TONKIN: Does the Premier deny Lloyd said yesterday that be expected that It takes two months to get a sub- to recruit one or two of the men with- division through the Town Planning in the next six months. Board? The added scope for future Planning Mr. Brand: That is a red herring across created by the new staff would give the trail. The broad problem of planning a clearer picture of areas in the region the future is a very different thbing from where major redevelopment was likely. the matter you are talking about. Quicker Answer Mr. TONKIN: If the Town Planning Department is so understaffed that it This would help to give a quicker takes two months to get a simple sub- answer to the general question of pro- division through, what Lime has it to perties and their future. think about these broader problems of Mr. Lloyd said the new planners redevelopment? would work under his direction. De- cisions on their projects would be Mr. Brand: I should not think the made by the Metropolitan Region Town Planner and senior members would Planning Authority. occupy themselves on these smaller mnat- The Town Planning Department's ters of subdivision. routine work would continue generally Mr. TONKIN: It is very plain that this as it was. decision-and I applaud it, because it is Premier Brand said the metropoli- the right one-to augment the staff of the tan region had to plan for three times Town Planning Department emphasises the population and. up to five times the point that right up to now the depart- the trafflc It now had. ment has been inadequate for the task (Wednesday, 16 September. 1964.] 1003 with which it has been confronted; and Mr. TONKIN: I have no doubt what- therefore it is a reasonable assupnption ever that the information for which I that the planning for the roads of Perth have asked in regard to embankmnents will and the handling of traffic has been lop- not be available before Parliament goes sided. That is our complaint. into recess--some 12 months after the If the Government had agreed to the scale model was prepared for the mis- proposal which came from the Opposi- direction of the public. tion last December that a committee be Mr. Brand: It was not prepared for appointed, and that following upon agree- misdirection at all. ment by it the Government would be authorised to proceed, we would have been Mr. TONKIN: It Is obvious that it is able to satisfy the people that reasonable worth nothing. opportunity had been given to interrogate Mr. Brand: The mounds might be more the engineers and officers and to give con- or they might be less. sideration to the proposals to find how far they had advanced. But the Govern- Mr. TONKIN: Or they might be where ment would have none of it, on the they are shown; or they might be some- grounds of urgency. where else. Mr. Brand: That is so. Mr. Brand: There is a special com- mittee working on this aspect of the Mr. TONKIN: Yet the actual filling scheme consisting of highly Placed men in In of the river did not start until some town Planning and landscaping. three or four months later. The only conclusion to which I can come is that Mr. TONKIN: The Minister quoted the Government was anxious to rush it from the report given by the Chief Traffic through in the dying hours of Parlia- Engineer after he had returned from the inent- United States, and he said that in his Mr. Brand: We dealt with the problem opinion we in Western Australia were, in it. some aspects, in advance of the United when we came to States in this respect. I would point out Mr. TONKIN: -because it did not have that on the western coast of the U.S.A., In complete plans; and if it has them now the State of California, the development it declines to disclose them. What valid has been of comparatively recent times; argument can there be, if the information and yet the problems there are greater is available, against making public at this than those in New York, because of the stage how many embankments are in- greater rapidity of development. In Cali- volved, where they are to be positioned. fornia the People have voluntarily agreed and what is their extent? We are told to tax themselves in order to provide funds here that that information cannot be for the establishment of more Public given, because discussions are taking place transport, because the use of private tran- between various authorities. sport has almost come to a standstill. Mr. Brand: There is no overall plan If that has occurred in some of the that is always complete in every detail. more recently developed parts of the There are changes in decisions in respect U.S.A., surely that is the Place where we of these mounds and features. Quite should observe what is required! We likely there are last-minute changes. should send men abroad with a definite assignment, to go to places where the Mr. TONKIN: In that case of what Problems are most acute, in order to as- use is the model? certain the methods of dealing with those Mr. Brand: It gives some idea of the problems. features. It is idle for the Minister for Works to Mr. TONKIN: So there could be em- refer to the ideas which were held by the bankmients shown that will not be there; Main Roads Department back in 1954 and and there could be embankments missing 1955. because the problem before us is on the model which should be there. growing so rapidly that it is changing al- Mr. Brand: These mounds were put in most from day to day, and the methods of there to give You some indication of what dealing with It are also changing from day sort of outline would take place. to day. Do not let us run away with the idea that because we have top engineers Mr. TONKIN: To give a rough out- in this State-and they are good engin- line that there might be mounds. We are eers-they are infallible. One need only told it is a scale model which purports to refer to the traffic Islands which were built show all that is involved in the proposal, in the middle Of Stirling Highway at the and it now transpires that a few mud suggestion of the Main Roads Department, heaps were thrown on to indicate that and which were considerably altered be- there would be embankments. That justi- cause a supporter of the Government fies us In the charge that the Government made a complaint about them. moved hastily before the whole thing was I did not hear the Premier say at that properly planned. time, "What does the member for Clare- Mr. Brand: It moved in time and it mont know about the matter? The Gov- wants to get on with the job. ernment advisers were responsible, so it [ASSEMBLY.]

must be accepted they were right." The Mr. TONKIN: If the Government pro- Government did not rely on the advice of ceeds with this initial part of the plan. the Main Roads Department and the one of two things is Inevitable: Either :Chief Traffic Engineer. The Government. there will have to be a further filling-in Instead, pulled up the traffic islands and of about 40 acres of the river, or a strip got rid of the "snake" along Stirling of land at Langley Park will have to be .Highway. The engineers could be wrong, used. and apparently they were regarded as be- Mr. Wild: That is exactly what the ing wrong. planners have said. Mr. Brand: So would the people whom Mr. TONKIN: So the position in con- yOU propose to be sent overseas be liable nection with this project involves one of to make the same mistake. these two alternatives. Mr. TONKIN: If they were wrong, and Mr. Wild: In 10 or 15 years' time. apparently they were in that instance, Mr. TONKIN: We say the Government then they might not be the last word on should not place the State in the position. the matter before us. We are not attempt- without further inquiry, of having to face ing to pronounce whether they were right either of those unattractive alternatives. or wrong. What we say is that because Every effort should be made now to de- of the Importance of the proposal, of the termine whether this step must be pro- fact that the cost of the whole project in ceeded with, or whether there is not a total could reach £40,000,000 to £50,000,000, more satisfactory and alternative plan, and of the far-reaching effect on the city which will obviate the necessity for using of Perth, it is worth while to tarry a few either of the alternatives subsequently. months in order to make as certain as we possibly can that this is the right step to Mr. Brand: The consultants, De Leuw take. The Government claims that what Cather & Company, have advice from all it is doing Is right. It is accepting the over the world on the latest developments, responsibility and pushing on with the job. and they are giving us the very latest. Of course, it cannot escape the responsibil- Mr. TONKIN: The main purpose of the ity. motion was to ensure that discussion would Mr. Brand: There is no question of it. ensue, and that the arguments for and We accept the responsibility. against could be more adequately brought Mr. TONKIN: I think it is against the out than they were previously. The motion interests of the State for the Government seems to have achieved just that. I thank to take that attitude, because of the very those who have spoken in the debate for great importance of this project and what ensuring that the required Information, or is implied subsequently. The Minister for some part of it, will be made available to Works shook his head this evening when the House. This evening it took the Min- I said that further reclamation was inevit- ister for Works 1i hours to address him- able. It is inevitable, because if the present self to the subject; whereas, when the step is proceeded with, and the Mitchell proposal was first introduced in the House Freeway is laid down and the interchange -1 accept the word of my leader, because is established in accordance with the plan. I have not worked out the time myself- it is unthinkable that all the money which the Minister took six minutes. will be involved in establishing the inter- Mr. Wild: That was an entirely different change will be thrown away for the reason proposition. that no use is made of it. Mr. TONKIN: How the Minister for Mr. Brand: You are wrong. Works could justify placing before the Mr. TONKIN: To make use of it we Will Parliament Of Western Australia a Pro- have to develop the road along the river posal of such magnitude and importance, and fill in another 40 acres. in a speech of six minutes. I fail to see. Mr: Wild: What if the planners decide Mr. Brand: Which you had already to take a strip of land from Langley Park? decided upon when you built the Narrows. Would further reclamation have to be Mr. TONKIN: NO; it certainly was not. undertaken? Mr. Brand: By the way, how many Mr. TONKIN: The Government would engineers did You send over before you not be allowed to take that land. did that work? Mr. Wild: That is what the planners Mr. TONKIN: We sent one. will decide in the future. Mr. Brand: Who was It? take part of Mr. TONKIN: Godfrey. Any more Mr. Graham: You mean questions? The Esplanade? Mr. Brand: Davies has been overseas. Mr. Wild: I did not say that. That That is one; Lloyd makes two; and Aitken, is a possibility. three. Mr. Graham: You are considering it? Mr. TONKIN: I would hope, at this late Mr. Wild: I did not say so. I say It stage, that the Government- will be done 10 to 15 years hence by who- Mr. Brand: You are not as clever as you ever is responsible for planmng. think you are. [Thursday, 11 September, 1964.] 1005

Mr, TONKIN: -would appreciate there Page is very considerable disquiet in the com- BILIA-onfinued munity over this proposal and that a delay Chiropractors Em11-Zr...... 1007 of even six months would be fully Justified Criminal Code Amendment BIll-Sr. 10D7 if, at the end of it, the Government was Electoral Act Amendment BID-Report .. 1007 able to say, "The theories have been ex- Health Act Amendment Bill- amined: the men have seen what is taking 2r...... 1008 Place in Europe and in America: and we Corn.; Report ... .I. " 1010 are satisfied this proposal is the correct Inquiry Agents Licensing Act Amendment one, or it should be modified to this Bil- extent." That is all we are asking. Corn...... 1011 Report ...... 1011 Mr. Brand: They disagree and we send Legal Practitioners Act Amendment Dill- two morel 2r...... jol1 Mr. TONKIN. That is all we are asking, Cor.; Deport .. . to11 and we think it is not an unreasonable Local Government Act Amendment Bill Proposition. (No. 2)- Question put and a division taken with intro. ; It...... 1007 the following result:- Presbyterian Church Acts Amendment 3ml-Zr.... 1008 Ayes.-lB Mr. Brady Mr, Jamieson QUESTIONS ON NOTICE- Mr. Evans Mr. Kelly Mr. Pletcher Mr. Oldfield Apple By-products: Imports from Other Mr. Graham Mr. Rowberry states ... ..I ...... 1006 Mr. Hall Mr. Sewell Mr. Hawke Mr. Toms Hairdressers' Registration Board : Fees Mr, Heal Mr. Tonkin and Expenses ... .. 1006 Mr. W. HEgney Mr. H. May (Teller) Roads- Noes-fl7 Kalgoorie-Broad Arrow Road : Wid- Mr. Bovell Mr. 1. W. Manning ening and Improving .. . 1005 Mr. Brand Mr. W. A. Manning Roads In South-West Province Shires: Mr. Burt Mr. Nalder Expenditure by Main Roads Depart- Mr. Court Mr. Nimmo ...... Mr. Craig Mr. Runcirnan m ent 1006 Mr. Crommelin Mr. Wild Mr. Grayden Mr. Wtlilams Mr, Guthrie Mr. O'Nel Mr. Lewis (Teller) Pairs The PRESIDENT (The Hon. L. C. Ayes Noes Diver) took the Chair at 2.30 p.m., and Mr. J. Hegney Mr. Hutchinson read prayers. Mr. Rhatigan Mr. Dunn Mr. Biecerton Mr. Hart Mr. Norton Dr. Henn ON NOTICE Mr. Moir Mr. O'Connor QUESTIONS Mr. Curran Mr. Cornell Mr. Davies Mr. Gayfer KALGOORLIE-BROAD ARROW ROAD Mr. D. 0. May Mr. Mitchell Widening and Improving Majority against-I. 1.The Hon. 0. BENNETTS (for The Question thus negatived. Hon. D. P. Dellar) asked the Minister for Mines: House adjourned at 10.45 p.m. (1) Is the Minister aware that the 9- foot sealed road between Kal- goorlie and Broad Arrow has badly deteriorated and become danger- ous, particularly on the crests at Smithfield and the 17* mile peg? (2) Will the Minister give considera- Iiigisluliur ( nuurit tion to widening and improving this road? Thursday. the 17th September, 1964 (3) If so. when will such work com- CONTENTS mence? Page The Hon. A. F. GRIFFITH replied: BlLLS-- (1) Yes. Some erosion was caused by Administration Act Amendment Bill-Sr. 1007 winter rains, but this has now Agriculture Proteetion Board Act Amend- been repaired. ment Bill- (2) £6,800 has been provided on the Corn. ;Report .... t0ll department's current Programme Cancer Council of Western Australia Act of works for reconstructing and Amendment Bill-- surfacing several sections of the Kalgoorlie-Broad Receipt ; itl . . 1010 Arrow road to Cemeteries Act Amendment Bill- the 171 mile peg. (3) Within the next three or four Corn. ; Report .. .. 1012 months.