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Home , Idritsa, Tulchyn

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Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

TABLE OF CONTENTS ITEM TRANSCRIPT

ENGLISH TRANSLATION 2 CITATION & RIGHTS 11

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Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

TRANSCRIPT ENGLISH TRANSLATION -Today is April 27th, 2009. We are in Detroit meeting a veteran of the Great Patriotic War. Please introduce yourself and tell us about your prewar life, the family that raised you, and the school you attended. How did you come to serve in the Red Army and what were you wartime experiences?

My name is Sheftl Abramovich Zisser. I was born in 1922 in the town of Tulchyn, Vinnytsia Region, Ukraine. I spent my childhood in Tulchyn where until 1929 my father worked as a door-to-door salesman and owned a small business. However, when collectivization began and business ownership was banned my father went to work as a painter, also in Tulchyn. My mother, Tema Zisser, nee Poberezhskaya, was a housewife. We lived in private apartments until 1938 when we were able to afford part of a house. We had a small homestead. I had a grandfather and a grandmother; their family consisted of eight or ten children.

When the war began many people stayed in Tulchyn. In 1929 I began my studies at Ukrainian School No.2 and graduated in 1939. I enrolled in a university, but then Timoshenko issued an order to mobilize all freshman and sophomore students into the Red Army. I was drafted in October. I remember this day, it was on Kol Nidre, the eve of Yom Kippur. Nobody was around to see me off because everyone was at prayer services. I took off to the Zhuravlivka station and boarded a train to Koziatyn. In Koziatyn there was a distribution center, and I was sent to Kaluga, where I joined the 1st machine gun сompany. This was the regiment school.

I spent my childhood in Tulchyn, where there were many… it was a Jewish town. I can even show you a picture of our synagogue with a note on the back stating that 16,500 Jews lived there. According to the 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia there were only 1,000 non-Jews that lived there. I grew up in a deeply traditional Jewish family that observed all of the proper customs. I continue to… I lived in Moscow and had a son and daughter. My son was circumcised and had a Bar Mitzvah despite that difficult time. Even my grandson, who was born in Moscow in 1971 was circumcised and everything turned out OK.

As I mentioned, in the army I was assigned to a regiment school. We all passed lone combat training and had a meeting in February. From the meeting we traveled to winter combat training sites. We carried out our assignments very well and were thanked by the commander who bade us to perform our duties earnestly and warned us that war was imminent. He informed us that in February the Germans had docked six submarines in Norway and had occupied the entire north of the country. We carried on our service until May 1st, when after returning from a parade we were dining in a cafeteria and unexpectedly received orders to relocate. We loaded some of our equipment onto a train and set off for the Lithuanian border, or

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Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN more specifically the towns of Sebezh and Idritsa where the Lyulyashenko Division was being assembled. Yes… in May we were sent to summer training camps. Before leaving for the camps we received dog tags and dry rations which we were to carry with us. We were waiting for the war to begin at any moment.

On June 22nd we were woken up by an emergency announcement that the Germans had attacked us. We were in summer training camps at the time, but quickly returned to our winter base. Mobilized reservists and recent call-ups from May were already at the base. I was trained to operate a Maxim Gun, which was considered to be a state-of-the-art weapon, despite being quite ancient. From there we were sent to… On June 27-28th we were ordered to move out. I served in the 18th Motorized Infantry Regiment of the 18th Motorized Division. We were armed with machine-guns and outfitted with GAZ-AA trucks. It was rear- wheel drive and was also quite ancient. We advanced toward Belarus from Kaluga, driving along whichever roads were dry. It was rainy at the time and the roads turned to mud, forcing us to carry everything we had and push the trucks.

Sometime around July 27th - 28th, I don't remember exactly ... In late July we fought our first battle in the town of Sianno near Lepiel, Belarus. We managed to push the Germans out of town by evening. Many of my friends were killed in that battle. My second had been killed as well and the situation was quite worrisome. In the evening I went on patrol in order to find my missing comrades and ran into a large group of Jews. These were young and old people who had stayed behind. The next day the Germans retook the village from us, but we pushed back and pushed the Germans out again. I entered the Jews’ homes… All the homes were empty and not a single Jew was left.

Our motorized and armored division was surrounded. We were armed with KV tanks, which were heavy and not maneuverable. The Germans surrounded us by landing paratroopers in our path. We began fighting our way out, but as soon as we would break through, more paratroopers were dropped in our path and we were surrounded again. We made our way to Svechyovo [sic. the village is called Solovyovo - ed.] where there is a crossing over the river. At the Solovyovo Crossing… This was a famous crossing where a traffic jam of Soviet vehicles formed. However, we moved a little further to the Vop River and engaged the enemy. The fighting was quite heavy and I was hit in my right hand. I was sent to a hospital where I spent two or three months before returning to combat. I was still a machine gunner, but this time I was assigned to the 294th Infantry Regiment. We were stationed at the station of Prechistaya in the Kalinin Region for a very long time.

In 1944… or maybe in 1943, I do not remember anymore, we pushed the Germans out. There was a formidable and very large line of German defenses there which included 1,200 cannons and many tanks.

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Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

After a heavy artillery bombardment we pushed the Germans out and advanced toward Smolensk. Near Smolensk we again engaged the Germans. Our division was named the Dukhovshchina Division in honor of the eponymous nearby town. From there we kept on advancing until we reached Vitebsk. In Vitebsk we engaged the enemy in a big battle on hill 181.1. In that battle I was wounded in the abdomen. I was hit with 18 pieces of shrapnel, four of which pierced my abdomen. This was the end of my frontline service because I was not able to perform combat duties any longer.

I was awarded with the Order of the Patriotic War, Medal for Battle Merit, and Medal for the Victory in the Great Patriotic War.

- Could I ask you about a few details? What was your first battle like?

I already told you about it.

-You said that you engaged in combat. What does that mean exactly? How old were you?

I was 18.

- Today when we see our 18-year-old grandchildren, they are just kids...

Yes.

- But you fought in battle.

The way the first battle was fought is quite interesting. We rode in our trucks until we reached the forest. We took off our backpacks, trench coats, and emergency rations; we took only our weapons, and walked into the forest. We reached a clearing and assembled on our commander’s order. We were ordered to team up in groups of four and dig in. There were 12 machine guns in our company, which is quite a lot of firepower. We arranged our guns to achieve heavy, concentrated hits. We began firing at the Germans and killed many of them and they retreated. Here's what's interesting: there was this little ravine, that had a small river flowing through it. The Germans were on the opposite side of the small river, which we could not cross because the Germans had that area covered. Nonetheless, we managed to suppress the Germans and advance onward freeing this city. This was my first battle and my baptism by fire, so to speak. The first time I saw the dead and wounded was terrifying. But you know… we were young …

Oh, I forgot to mention the most important detail. Our company was made up servicemen of different ethnicities, including Germans…

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Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

- Germans?

Yes, they were from Crimea. There were Greeks, Bulgarians, Crimean Tatars, Ukrainians, people from Russia, and Jews. All the Jews were from small towns. What is interesting is that after we advanced during the first battle… when we were pushed back, all the Germans, Bulgarians, Greeks, and so forth, they all disappeared and were never seen again. They had surrendered to the Germans. We overheard them agreeing to surrender en masse, but we Jews had nowhere to go. We were fighting to the death because we knew that… My parents were not imprisoned in a ghetto because after learning of the German treatment of Jews and that war was imminent, I wrote to my parents and said that a ruthless war is coming and that they had to evacuate and save my brother. This is why they left and survived. All the other relatives including my grandmother, aunt, uncle… my father’s brother, his children Shmil and Khil Zisser. They were all officers, and all fought and died. I am not sure what else you want to hear.

- I often ask the people I interview about their first battle and whether they remember it. You do, and you mentioned that at first you were shocked by the all the dead men around you, but that eventually you became accustomed to it. How does one get used to something like that?

It becomes normal.

- Just work?

Yes. I never killed anyone before or after the war. However, at war I shot and killed. My bullets hit someone and I killed them. What can I say… Maybe this is a bit cynical, but sometimes I received satisfaction from doing it. Sometimes when we captured prisoners… we were told to take them somewhere. Why do that? We shot them right on the spot… quite unceremoniously. Only the Italians were spared because they quickly surrendered. Many Germans did so to, but many others were… Walking past a wounded German was more frightening than anything. He would be clutching his wound and still take a shot at you in order to wound or kill you.

- The wounded German would?

Yes.

- This was at the start of the war?

During any period of the war.

- Were they just finished off?

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Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

What else were we to do with them? Many were finished off, and quite a few were taken prisoner and died of their wounds. They had no regard for our lives, so why did we have to have any regard for theirs? Nowadays it is different…

- When you advanced toward German-held territory, did you walk on foot?

In Belarus.

- Did you know about the Holocaust when you were on the offensive, or did you find out after the war?

When we reached the Solovyovo Crossing and engaged in battle...

- What river does the crossing traverse?

The Vop River. All the Germans, Bulgarians, and Greeks immediately fled from our ranks. The Belarusians, Tatars, and Caucasian ethnic groups remained because they had nowhere to run. As for the Belarusians… I tried asking them where they were going. They said “What, do you need me here or something? I’m going home. I’m not about to fight for your cause.” Then they just got up and left. Even if I had wanted to leave, where could I go?

- Later, when Soviet forces retook Belarus they were probably drafted again?

The security services always followed us. During the first days of the war there was no border because we were retreating. However, in 1943-44 the border, represented by the KGB, advanced. What did they do? Whatever they wanted.

- Did you ever liberate any concentration camps or POW camps?

No. When we advanced through Belarus… Everything was scorched when we walked through the villages… Sometimes there were bodies that had not been picked up, they belong to fallen soldiers, civilians, and once I even found a child.

- Was he alive?

No, everything around us was dead. Few people could survive that pit of hell.

- Do you still remember all of it in detail, or...

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Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

Can you not see that I can talk about these things off the cuff? When I returned home… I returned in 1944 after being wounded. The first thing that the Ukrainians asked was “You’re still alive?”

- You returned to Tulchyn?

Yes. All the neighbors would ask me if I was still alive. Do you understand? They could not believe that we had survived. The Ukrainians themselves were quite hostile toward us. You know they had always dreamed of their little independence. They think that they are worth something to someone. War veterans and disabled veterans were even despised for some time. Maybe this was because some of the disabled veterans acted impolitely, they wanted to cut the line everywhere, they pushed people out of the way… this is all true. It was not until 1968 when a writer named Sergei Sergeyevich Smirnov raised awareness about the veterans and made things better. Our factory leadership decided to celebrate Victory Day and honor the veterans. They budgeted two rubles for each veteran, which paid for a glass of vodka and two sandwiches, one with caviar and the other with sprats. Later we began receiving gifts. However, this was all after 1968; before that even breathing a word about being a veteran was considered bad.

- What was Tulchyn like before the war?

Before the war it was a wonderful Jewish town, connected to many historical events. For example, the southern Decembrist center was located there because Pestel had lived there. Fortifications from Suvorov’s time still remained there and we walked around them when we were studying military tactics in school. Pushkin had visited the town. Pravda even wrote an article titled “Every House Bears a Memorial Plaque.” There were many revolutionaries and famous people… Meikhel Vul who worked at the Central Bank, and was later the ambassador to either Greece or Turkey… Many talented people in science, culture, and sports came from small towns.

- Did you study at a Ukrainian or Russian school?

In a Ukrainian one.

- The children there were either Ukrainian or Russian...

The largest school was Jewish and it occupied three buildings. Everyone studied there until a new Ukrainian school was built. In 1932 a Russian school was also built. The overwhelming majority of children studied at the Jewish school. In 1939 all Jewish schools and institutions of higher learning were disbanded. When my friends from the Jewish school went to apply to different universities, none of them could pass the entrance exams because they were in Ukrainian, but my peers spoke Yiddish. They would respond in Yiddish, but the Ukrainians did not understand. Jews were already being mistreated at that

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Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN time.

-Were there any ethnic tensions at school?

There were no real problems during my time there. We were friends with all sorts of girls, but for the Ukrainians the word “kike” was one of the best insults, and we felt that.

- When you returned to Tulchyn after the war, what was it like?

It had been destroyed, and even though many Jews returned to their homes, the city never returned to its prewar state. In 1936 just two or three months before the first Soviet elections, about 200 Jews were arrested. This was done because some of them had belonged to Bund and others were Zionists, and the Soviet authorities were concerned that these “nationalists” could disrupt the elections. Some of them were sent to labor camps and some of them were released. In 1937 all of the teachers at my school except for Mykola Panteleymonovych were arrested. We joked that he probably reported everyone to the authorities. As for everyone else… it was a frightful time.

- After the war, the Jews who survived in evacuationreturned to Tulchyn. Did they know that among the Ukrainian population there were Nazi collaborators?

I heard that when the war began… Our gym teacher, Aleksei Ivanovich Stoyanov, became the chief of police. The first thing he did was to gather all of his friends… He played football with them… they took the entire intelligentsia of the town and killed it off. There was a death camp in Tulchyn, that was overseen by Dr. Beletskiy. He would stop by every morning and ask how many had died the previous day. If he heard a number like 200, he would inquire why so few had passed. The entire town was imprisoned at the camp in the nearby village of Pechora. The Germans left the skilled craftsmen alive. They left one clockmaker, one tailor… Whatever they needed for themselves. The others… of course the Ukrainians…

- When you returned from the front, did you know that the Ukrainians did all of this?

Of course.

- But you all lived together?

What could you do? You returned back home and could not do anything if your neighbor was a scumbag… Some things… They had stolen everything, so some of the property was returned after the war.

Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

-You said that your family followed Jewish traditions, which was quite difficult during Soviet rule.

Yes, it was difficult under Soviet rule, but when I lived in Moscow… We met at either my apartment, or at my in-laws’ place. They would host the holiday celebration. I wanted my son to be circumcised, so I had that done. My in-laws helped me to attend synagogue as well. I was never a member of the Party, despite having a management position. I was trusted so much at work that my boss would always sign all his orders twice in order to show that he trusted me. I was also on good terms with the district Party committee and the Party executive committee. I helped members of the Politburo and Brezhnev’s aides. They would come and share stories about how Khrushchev was removed and how he sat there weeping during the plenary meeting of the Central Party Committee. At first he would not allow them to say the words [that he was removed from his duties]. He was told: "If you don't calm down, we're going to put you away." So we knew this, people shared this information with us.

To this day we follow traditions - every Saturday we go to synagogue. So, now I've told you everything.

- Did you ever tell your children about the war?

Of course. My children and even my grandchildren know. May 9th is a special holiday for us and we always do our best to mark it. I used to take my grandchildren to the Park Kultury [in Moscow] where soldiers from our 5th Army would meet up. Soldiers from our regiment and the last division where I served gathered there. The children loved it because we could always get some sort of rare treat for them there like candy or waffles. It was fun for the children.

- Were you ever invited to speak about the war at schools?

A very long time ago in the 1960s when people first took interest in our stories. There was a school near my place of work and I would go and tell my stories which were still fresh in my memory then.

- Did the children listen?

With great pleasure. A few years ago I went to our local synagogue, Beth Shalom. A few veterans had been invited to talk to the children. Our synagogue has a special club for Russian expats. We sit there for about two hours, speaking English. We told the children about the war and they listened with great interest.

- You are wearing a Badge of Honor.

Yes. I worked at a medal factory. There was a factory in Leningrad - "Lenmalier." Since we worked with precious metals, they placed a big order on the 50th anniversary of the Party. Since we completed so many

Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN orders, we were each awarded this badge.

- Thank you very much.

Sheftl Zisser. Full, unedited interview, 2009

ID MI012.interview PERMALINK http://n2t.net/ark:/86084/b4m68p

ITEM TYPE VIDEO ORIGINAL LANGUAGE RUSSIAN

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