Vol. 709 Monday No. 52 23 March 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Introduction: The Lord Bishop of Bradford Questions Schools: Performance Tables Vehicles: Tax and Duty Housing: Home Information Packs Railways: Franchises Legislative Reform (Supervision of Alcohol Sales in Church and Village Halls &c.) Order 2009 Renewables Obligation Order 2009 Motions to Approve Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL] Report (Second Day) European Council: 19-20 March 2009 Statement Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities Statement Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL] Report (Second Day) (continued) NHS: Doctors Question for Short Debate Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL] Report (Second Day) (continued)

Grand Committee Ten Statutory Instruments Debated

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 441 The Lord Bishop of Bradford[23 MARCH 2009] Schools: Performance Tables 442

Lord Richard: My Lords, is my noble friend aware House of Lords that, unless one is an expert in this particular field, her Answer is totally incomprehensible? She has promised Monday, 23 March 2009. us a further answer. Can we have it in English? 2.30 pm Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, yes. I will Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chester. do my very best.

Introduction: The Lord Bishop of Bradford Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, notwithstanding the anomaly that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, has highlighted, 2.36 pm are the Government still committed to value added David Charles, Lord Bishop of Bradford, was rather than bald results and league tables as a much introduced and took the oath, supported by the Bishop better way of holding schools to account? Does Ofqual of Manchester and the Bishop of Chester. intend to sort this anomaly out?

Schools: Performance Tables Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, we are Question committed to value added. In fact, I took the trouble to have a look at the technical guide to the post-16 2.40 pm contextual value added 2008 model. Asked By Lord Lucas Noble Lords: Oh! To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the practice of excluding International GCSE results from value-added calculations in the post-16 school Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, it takes a performance tables has the effect of artificially few hours to read, but I assure that noble Baroness enhancing the results of independent schools against that it is comprehensive. those of state schools; and whether they have plans to change the practice. Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve: My Lords, is the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Minister aware that it is often destructive to use one Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness and the same method for holding pupils to account by Morgan of Drefelin): My Lords, the post-16 contextual their exam marks as well as institutions; that is, schools? value-added calculations are derived from a statistical There is substantial evidence, such as in Warwick model containing a number of factors known to impact Mansell’s Education by Numbers: The Tyranny of Testing, on pupils’ post-16 outcomes. I recognise that excluding of the damage done to education by using these exam IGCSE results from the CVAcalculations could potentially results for school accountability. Can she suggest a bias the results of independent schools in either direction. better way to do it? We have commissioned an internal analysis of this issue. I will be happy to provide noble Lords with a fuller reply when that analysis is complete. Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, the noble Baroness refers to what I am sure is some important Lord Lucas: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness research, which I will be happy to look at. The point for that Answer. Is it not the case that the Government about contextual value added is that it is not just could simply ask the exam boards for the IGCSE taking the bald, bare exam results. It is taking into results and incorporate them into the tables? There account progress that pupils make as a result of the would then be no chance whatever of bias. Is it not efforts of their particular institution. much more important that the tables provide parents with the information that they need to help them The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, will the Minister choose schools than to keep the Government’s amour look at how independent boarding schools are performing propre clean concerning a little dispute about what an compared with state day schools in terms of outcomes exam is called? for looked-after children? Her noble friend Lord Adonis initiated a programme of encouragement to allow Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, as the appropriate young people in care to join independent noble Lord is well aware, when the most recent statistics boarding schools. How is that progressing? were prepared, only a few students were taking IGCSEs. We can reassure noble Lords that as regards the most current information, there is little likelihood of an Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I can impact. However, IGCSEs have not been submitted inform the House that that work is progressing. I for accreditation to Ofqual. Therefore, until such a should be very happy to write to the noble Earl with time as Ofqual has accredited those examinations and an update, but there have been placements of looked-after they are approved for use in maintained schools, we children, and, as I understand it, the programme is would not be in a position to collect those statistics. progressing reasonably well. 443 Vehicles: Tax and Duty[LORDS] Vehicles: Tax and Duty 444

Vehicles: Tax and Duty Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, she will recognise Question that the industry takes time to adjust to a stimulus of this kind, but the direction of travel is quite straight forward—it is low-pollutant travel. Industry will benefit, 2.45 pm as will the private car owner, from reducing the pollutants Asked By Lord James of Blackheath which their engines emit. The level of vehicle excise duty is an important stimulus towards that. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, to stimulate the British automotive industry and to Lord Broers: My Lords, I am sure the Minister is reduce emissions, they will extend the tax and duty aware that the lowest-emitting carbon-fuel-consuming benefits available to private vehicles to all commercial cars are of course those with diesel engines. Their vehicles. emissions are even lower than those with hybrid systems. Are the government schemes for the taxation and Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, fuel duty and pricing of diesel fuels appropriate? vehicle excise duty apply to all vehicles, both private and commercial, while commercial vehicles already Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the issues of the enjoy a range of tax and duty benefits. VED rates for differential between petrol and diesel have a substantial heavy goods vehicles have been frozen since 2000, and history, and the differential is marked. However, the heavy goods vehicles that meet European air quality noble Lord will appreciate the extent to which the standards are eligible for reduced VED rates through Government have put emphasis on low-pollutant vehicles. reduced pollution certificates. Business expenditure VED is the easiest signal to send because it is paid on vehicles may be tax deductible against companyprofits, once a year or at six-monthly intervals and is a gross subject to corporation tax rules. figure. We are signalling that we expect vehicles with low emissions to be purchased. We are also encouraging Lord James of Blackheath: My Lords, I thank the manufacturers; it is not as though manufacturers are Minister for that response. In view of the imminent not aware of worldwide pressure to investigate those European emissions regulation 6, is it not time that the technologies that produce fewer pollutants. Government considered extending to HGVs and light goods vehicles the requirement on vehicle manufacturers Baroness O’Cathain: My Lords, in view of what the of private cars with regard to their CO2 emissions and noble Lord, Lord Broers, has said, which was news to possibly extending it further to cover NOx? me, is there not some mechanism that would reduce taxation on diesel fuel, which would encourage more people to buy diesel cars, instead of petrol cars? Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord is right that the European requirement comes into force in October this year, but we have already had in Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, it is easy to place over the past year an incentive to the industry to employ the concept that taxation should be reduced. produce commercial vehicles with lower emissions. However, there is a cost involved in the reduction of taxation. It is a reduction in revenue, which means that expenditure would have to be cut elsewhere. I am Lord Newby: My Lords, given the importance that always interested in the Opposition’s proposals that the Government attach to making the UK a greener- we should cut revenue because I never get any suggestions vehicle manufacturing hub, can the Minister take another of where they would cut expenditure. look at whether the current range of incentives might be strengthened? Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, will the Minister congratulate those local authorities that have in mind Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, of course the the need to reduce emissions when they design their Government look at the question of improving our car parking policies, such as policies for residents’ performance on reducing pollution, but the noble parking and on-street parking in controlled parking Lord will recognise the vehicle excise duty incentives zones? This makes it less expensive for lower-emitting for reducing the emissions of cars and commercial cars to park. My borough of Richmond has been at vehicles. The greenest cars of all, which are not powered the forefront of this. by carbon fuels, do not pay excise duty. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, of course we Baroness Noakes: My Lords, nearly two months welcome anything that local authorities can contribute. ago the Government announced to a great fanfare a There is no doubt that a whole range of strategies can multibillion pound package for the motor industry be deployed to encourage the use of low-pollutant focusing on lower carbon initiatives. How much money cars. The message of the benefit of low-pollutant cars has so far been paid to the motor industry? is probably widespread in the community. We need consumers to act accordingly. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, this is an ongoing Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, I programme, as the noble Baroness will appreciate. revert to the Minister’s penultimate and ante-penultimate answer. Allowing for the fact that the Irish have a Noble Lords: Oh! certain flexibility because of the Kyoto Protocol, they 445 Vehicles: Tax and Duty[23 MARCH 2009] Housing: Home Information Packs 446 had no difficulty in taxing unleaded petrol higher than past year far surpasses anything that people have put diesel. Why would the same freedom not be available forward in terms of a cut in fuel taxes simply because to us? of the decline in world oil prices. Therefore, we have to put this debate not only into the noble Lord’s historical Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, it reflects taxation perspective but into the more recent and relevant strategy over many years. The Irish economy is often perspective. quoted as an exemplar for the British economy. On almost every occasion that it is quoted, I look at the facts and the comparison does not stand up. It is a Housing: Home Information Packs vastly different economy with vastly different issues of Question motor transport—in the numbers of vehicles—from those of an advanced economy such as the United 2.56 pm Kingdom. The issues facing Ireland and Britain are Asked By Lord Dixon-Smith vastly different. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, given that the light of current housing market conditions, transport is by far the greatest contributor to CO2 they will abandon the requirement to provide home emissions, and the urgency for this country to reduce information packs. CO emissions, is it not illogical for the Government 2 not to give some stimulus to the use of diesel, when Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the diesel cars are now the lowest emitters? Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest as I own a small number Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, it is not that we of farm cottages. do not give commercial industry any incentives to reduce pollutants. I have indicated the advantage that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, we have already given in grants to industry for the Department for Communities and Local Government purchase of commercial vehicles that are lower emitters. (Baroness Andrews): My Lords, the current problems We will emphasise that from October when the European facing the housing market were caused not by HIPs directive becomes mandatory. We are concerned to but by the global economic downturn. Independent ensure that, as far as possible, transport plays its part research undertaken by Europe Economics found no in lowering emissions. That is not as easy as the evidence of any impact by HIPs on transactions or suggestion that one has merely to reduce the tax take prices. on diesel.

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, for a decade the have the Government considered a scheme similar to Government flooded society with regulations on the that which, I understand, operates in some European assumption that the good times would continue, and countries, whereby cars that have high emissions can HIPs are of course a classic. Seventy-four per cent of be traded in for scrap if the owners replace them the people who buy houses—these are the Government’s with cars with low emissions? The scheme involves a figures—take no notice of home information packs in ¤2,000 offset against the new car, which is financed by their purchase deal and it is an inhibiting factor from government, thereby helping both with the problem of the point of view of the vendor. However, the real emissions and the car industry? question that I wish to ask is as follows. There are a number of factors in secondary legislation brought in Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we are looking by this Government which cumulatively are making it at that very carefully because it has merits if it is done more difficult for the general economy to recover. Will well. One of the first countries to employ this strategy the Minister ask her colleagues in government to was France, but it is running into very heavy deficits commit themselves to a general review of secondary and its Government are incurring much higher costs legislation so that any inhibiting factors which are in developing the scheme. Therefore, it is not surprising discovered—I am sure that there are plenty of others— that our Government are taking care to evaluate the might be removed? effectiveness of the scheme before it is fully deployed. Baroness Andrews: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, I am sure the Lord will know that we are committed to an ambitious Minister would not wish inadvertently to mislead the agenda of regulatory reform, cutting down unnecessary House but, when he says that the higher taxation on costs and improving the cost-effectiveness of new diesel goes back many years, is he aware that when I regulation. We have to do that while keeping essential was Chancellor the tax on diesel was less than the tax protections for employees and employers. Abandoning on petrol, and at that time we had a budget surplus, the forthcoming changes on HIPs, which are intended not the horrifying and rapidly growing deficit that we to consolidate the regulations and provide industry have at present? with certainty and stability, would not help that process. I am delighted to say that, despite the current difficulties Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, how could I facing the housing market, a recent survey of 16,000 possibly spoil the fun? The noble Lord may refer to transactions by a leading estate agent, Connells, showed days gone past but he has to go back only one year to that, where a HIP was available, exchanges were completed see that the decline in the cost of diesel fuel over the on average six days quicker. 447 Housing: Home Information Packs[LORDS] Railways: Franchises 448

Lord Dubs: My Lords, I declare an interest in that I independent research that she mentioned. The website am trying to sell a house. I can give the address to did tell me that I could subscribe to Ministers’“twittering” anyone who wants it. I bought a HIP last year and I but that is not entirely helpful in this context. The have to buy another one. I simply say to my noble Government cite the need for an evidence base. What friend that of course it makes no difference to the evidence do they have on the effect of requiring a HIP housing market and of course on some occasions from the first day of marketing, a change to be introduced HIPs are useful but there are times when a HIP is at the beginning of April, as she mentioned? What simply an additional price that one has to pay to sell difference will that make? a house. Baroness Andrews: My Lords, over the past year we Baroness Andrews: As I indicated, my Lords, we have been working closely with the industry. The package have seen some definite benefits from HIPs in terms of that we brought forward in December is looking at speed. The regulations we introduced in December different forms of simplification and working parties. will require sellers to provide a property information I can send the noble Baroness a collection of evidence questionnaire that will include simple, basic information that we have gathered and put forward, but essentially on matters such as electrical safety which one often it is counterfactual evidence because the HIPs were does not remember to ask about when looking at a not being seen and we were told not least by estate house. On the specific problems, I am happy to act as agents and consumer organisations that it was important an estate agent for my noble friend. I can tell him that for buyers and sellers to be able to handle the HIP to HIPs are valid for as long as the house stays on the make sure that they knew what they were getting for market but that if it is removed, a new HIP will have to their money and what information it contained. be done after 12 months. Even if the sale falls through after a year the seller can go back on the market with the original HIP as long as the marketing starts Railways: Franchises again within 28 days. So it effectively has a shelf life of Question a year. 3.03 pm Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I am sure the Minister will remember whether she took part in Asked By Lord Bradshaw our debates in drawing up the legislation on HIPs. It was said then that HIPs might be very good in a rising To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps market but not very good in a falling market where they have taken to prepare for public control of a people were having difficulty in selling. Unfortunately railway franchise in the event of a train operating HIPs have not helped anyone and people are generally company defaulting on its franchise agreement. in disfavour of them because they feel that they are of no benefit. What can be done to reduce the extra The Minister of State, Department for Transport burden placed on those wishing to sell now? It is all (Lord Adonis): My Lords, Section 30 of the Railways very well to have a HIP but, as has been said, they last Act 1993, as amended by the Railways Act 2005, for only a certain time. On the other hand, if it is more places a duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that than three months old, it will rarely be accepted by a passenger services are maintained in the event of a building society, bank or another solicitor and they franchise failure. The Government have well developed will require it to be updated. What can be done about contingency plans in place should a franchisee default that? HIPs are not effective if they are not effective for on a franchise. These plans draw on the experience the duration. gained from the termination of the Connex South Eastern franchise in 2003 and the resolution of GNER’s Baroness Andrews: My Lords, as I said, they have a financial position in 2006. shelf life of a year. I agree with the noble Baroness that people need to see the HIPs. One of the things that has not succeeded is that estate agents have not Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I thank the Minister, been ensuring that the buyers, or the sellers, see the but will he give me an assurance that a truly professional HIP. We have changed the regulations and removed team of people is available to him in the event of a the concession on first-day marketing so that from default of a franchise and that those people will know 6 April people will need to have a HIP when they put that they are going to operate the franchise for a long their house on the market. That will help the buyer time, rather than the short time that South Eastern and the seller to know that the HIP is in place and Trains was given, where the people running it were what it delivers. We should also remember that well swept aside? over 2 million energy performance certificates have been issued through HIPs, all of which can save on Lord Adonis: My Lords, the time was not that short costs. We have also seen a drop in the cost of searches for South Eastern Trains. The Strategic Rail Authority of between £30 and £120. So, there are definite benefits took over the franchise at the end of 2003 and ran it to HIPs. until April 2006, which is a fairly lengthy period. On the competence of those who will take on this role, my Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, the Minister’s department has a call-off contract with First Class departmental website, which I trawled yesterday looking Partnerships, which is an organisation established by for evidence and research on HIPs, does not show any former senior British Rail managers, providing strategic, recent research. I could not find the reference to the commercial operations, engineering and infrastructure 449 Railways: Franchises[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy etc. 450 rail consultancy and advice to leading rail companies, franchise operator has come to the Government saying investors in rail, Governments and regulators around that it expects to be in default of its obligations under the globe. I have looked at the CVs of the principal its franchise. officers of First Class Partnerships, whose experiences bear a remarkable resemblance to those of the noble Lord. Clearly, they are very well placed to take on Arrangement of Business these responsibilities. Announcement

3.08 pm Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that it is not his intention to Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, with the leave allow franchise holders who may get into trouble of the House, my noble friend Lady Royall of Blaisdon mid-term to renegotiate the terms of their franchise? will repeat the Statement on the spring European Does he agree that, if they were able to do so, that Council at a convenient point after 3.30 pm. Immediately would send out entirely the wrong message for future after the spring European Council Statement, my noble franchise bids because the winners would be those friend Lord Bach will repeat the rights and responsibilities who told the biggest whoppers about their projections Statement. rather than those who offered the best value for money? Legislative Reform (Supervision of Alcohol Lord Adonis: My Lords, my noble friend is correct Sales in Church and Village Halls &c.) in every aspect of his question. Order 2009 Viscount Tenby: My Lords, in a time of considerable financial stress, some train operating companies may Renewables Obligation Order 2009 well be tempted to make unwelcome economies from Motions to Approve the point of view of the travelling passengers, such as the shortening of trains, the early closure of stations, Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham compulsory redundancies and so forth. Will the That the draft orders laid before the House on Government undertake to monitor that carefully and 8 December 2008 and 11 February be approved. to take appropriate action if necessary? Relevant Documents: 2nd Report from the Regulatory Reform Committee, 7th Report from the Joint Committee Lord Adonis: My Lords, I can give that assurance. on Statutory Instruments and 8th Report from the Those operating the franchises are expected to abide Merits Committee, considered in Grand Committee by the terms of their contracts, which set out their on 18 March. obligations in considerable detail, including their obligations in the provision of train services. Motions approved.

Lord Berkeley: My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that, if one franchise hands the keys back, so Local Democracy, Economic Development to speak, all the other franchises operated by the same and Construction Bill [HL] holding company will also be terminated? On that Report (Second Day) basis, can he assure the House that First Class Partnerships has enough people to run three or four franchises for 3.09 pm an extended period, which might be required? Would there be any chance of their being allowed to go on to the end of the franchise period, as many of us asked Clause 23: Duty of public authorities to secure for when Connex was being operated by the Government, involvement because it was a rather good service? Amendment 97 not moved. Lord Adonis: My Lords, on cross-defaulting, we would take a decision on a case-by-case basis. We Clause 29 : Scrutiny officers would certainly not expect to have to run a large number of franchises. Amendment 98

Earl Attlee: My Lords, which franchises on the Moved by Baroness Hamwee Minister’s red list are more vulnerable to failure, those 98: Clause 29, leave out Clause 29 recently awarded or those that have been in place for longer? Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, Amendment 97 was alluded to at the end of the previous day’s proceedings, Lord Adonis: My Lords, it would not be appropriate and the procedures require us not to move it. for me to give details of individual franchises and our Amendment 98 would take out of the Bill Clause 29, assessment of them. That is commercially confidential which relates to scrutiny officers. In proposing this, I information. However, I can tell the noble Earl that no do not suggest in the slightest that we do not support 451 Local Democracy etc.[LORDS] Local Democracy etc. 452

[BARONESS HAMWEE] openness and transparency. In providing for restrictions good scrutiny. I did not explain my concerns terribly on disclosure, perhaps the Minister could tell us whether well in Committee, and therefore wish to bring back there is some equivalent that this replicates in the case the amendment. of a domestic committee, an overview and scrutiny I will also ask the Government to expand on comments committee, within an authority. I am quite concerned that the Minister made then. She said: about that restriction. I beg to move. “The purpose of the clause is to raise the status, visibility and effectiveness of the overview and scrutiny function”. Lord Patel of Bradford: My Lords, a number of She added that there was, important issues have been raised by the noble Baroness, “substantial evidence … that officer support is an important Lady Hamwee. Before I address them, I would first condition. … If overview and scrutiny is to be effective, it is like to set out the Government’s position on our crucial that officer resources are in place”.—[Official Report, proposals. We had a good discussion in Committee 3/2/09; col. GC172.] about proposals for overview and scrutiny, which together I agree very much with that. I declare an interest as a aim to raise the visibility and profile of scrutiny within member of the advisory board of the Centre for the council and in the local community. We also want Public Scrutiny, which has worked with the Government to improve its capacity and effectiveness so that it is on this. I agree that more resources and staff should, if better equipped to respond to issues of local importance. applied well, lead to better scrutiny.However, designating I am pleased that the noble Baroness agrees with the an officer does not mean that there will be any extra principle of what we are trying to do. officer resources. The Minister said that having a statutory officer was the critical thing, and that there This grouping includes our amendments for joint was evidence to this effect. Will she—or perhaps he, as overview and scrutiny committees as well as it looks as if the noble Lord, Lord Patel, will be Amendment 98 on our proposal for the scrutiny officer. answering—tell the House what that evidence is? I will deal first with the amendments concerned with joint overview and scrutiny committees. We talked at As regards funding, the Minister gave an indication—I length about the merits of cross-boundary scrutiny could not find the reference when I looked for it—about and how it could positively contribute to our overarching the amount of funding. Certainly she said that the aim of raising the visibility and effectiveness of scrutiny. Government would provide funding, that this would We were in agreement that joint overview and scrutiny be ring-fenced and that the costs would be met in full. committees could provide an efficient and effective I recall thinking when I heard the figure that it was not means of co-ordinating the scrutiny work of several very much funding. However, ring-fencing and meeting local authorities. Indeed, it was for this reason that we the costs in full in the way that she described seem to provided for the setting up of joint overview and be inconsistent with the assurances that the Government scrutiny committees between a county and one or gave in the same debate that it will be up to the local more of its districts in Section 123 of the Local authority to decide what suits it best. In short, we Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007, support good scrutiny, but we do not believe that the and why, in Clause 30 of the Bill, we sought to extend Government have found the key to unlocking it. the scope of these provisions so that joint overview Also in this group are government Amendments 99, and scrutiny committees might make reports and 100, 170, 171 and 172. We welcome these. The first recommendations on any matter affecting the area or expands on an amendment that we tabled at the previous inhabitants of that group of authorities, rather than stage. I believe it came from the Local Government on local area agreement matters alone. Association. The Minister will explain the now rather However, noble Lords wanted us to go further and longer clause, allowing for joint scrutiny by two or extend these arrangements so that any group of local more local authorities. Given the constraints at this authorities might set up a joint committee. My noble stage of the Bill, I will ask him some questions on his friend the Minister said that we would give the matter amendment, even though he has not yet had an further consideration, and we have done so. We have opportunity to introduce it. concluded that there is merit in noble Lords’ arguments. The new clause says that regulations may provide They will be pleased to hear that the new clause for arrangements for joint scrutiny to be made, introduced by Amendment 99 will enable us to make “only in circumstances, or subject to conditions or limitations, provision for the appointment of joint overview and specified in the regulations”. scrutiny committees by any two or more local authorities. Will the Minister give us a clue what that might cover; This will enable cross-boundary scrutiny of strategic and, importantly, do the Government expect that local issues affecting a number of local authorities, which authorities will take the lead in proposing any prescriptions supports sub-regional working between local authorities. that might come through regulations? Could he also The new clause replaces Section 123 of the 2007 confirm that this is not intended to be a provision that Act in its entirety and will also make the changes would allow the Secretary of State to take particular originally to be achieved by Clause 30 of the Bill; that action against particular local authorities? I cannot is, extending the scope of what joint overview and think what the Latin equivalent for ad hominem would scrutiny committees may do, so that they may make be, but I am sure that the Minister understands my reports and recommendations on any matter affecting point. the area or inhabitants of that group of authorities, New Section 5C would allow regulations to provide rather than on local area agreement matters alone. that an authority must or may not disclose information Broadening the scope of what these committees may to a joint scrutiny committee. I was surprised to see consider will help maximise this more efficient and this. The essence of good local government lies in its effective way of working. 453 Local Democracy etc.[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy etc. 454

Amendments 100, 170, 171 and 172 make necessary with a responsibility for LAAs. That will ensure that technical changes to the Bill and other legislation overview and scrutiny committees receive the officer where references to joint overview and scrutiny committees support that they need to carry out this important need updating or where repeals are no longer needed work. The requirement is for one statutory officer who now that we intend to insert a new Section 123 into the will act as a scrutiny champion. The clause is therefore Local Government and Public Involvement in Health central to our aims for improving the visibility and Act 2007. effectiveness of scrutiny. A few noble Lords, prior to the comments made by Noble Lords have suggested that the approach that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, raised concerns we have set out in the legislation is unnecessary and about the need for clarification on the scope and that we would be better to leave this matter for local content of the regulations that we intend to draw up authorities to decide on. Let me reassure noble Lords and on the timing of these regulations. It is natural to that we have consulted extensively on the proposals want reassurance about the timing of the regulations for scrutiny support set out in the White Paper, and I am happy to provide that. The new provisions Communities in Control. Views were mixed but, if I lay for the extended joint overview and scrutiny committees them out, noble Lords will see where we are coming would, if accepted, come into force automatically two from. Some welcomed the commitment to require a months after Royal Assent. The proposals for joint scrutiny officer resource. The Centre for Public Scrutiny overview and scrutiny regulations that we set out in thought it essential if scrutiny is to benefit fully from the Improving Local Accountability consultation will the new powers and responsibilities outlined in the provide a firm basis for regulations on any new, extended Communities in Control White Paper. It went on to joint overview and scrutiny committees, so we are not comment that it saw a danger of there being simply a starting from scratch. We intend to continue to work single officer and that it would favour more extensive with the LGA, the Centre for Public Scrutiny and requirements. Others, however, while agreeing that local government stakeholders, consulting as necessary scrutiny should be properly supported, stated that to ensure that arrangements for extended joint overview how to do so should be left to the discretion of and scrutiny committees are practical and strike the councils. Given the range of contrasting views expressed, right balance. With this in mind, we hope to be in a I believe that the approach that we have set out strikes position to issue final regulations providing for the correct balance in that it recognises the important joint overview and scrutiny committees under new role that officer support plays in supporting members Section 123 of the 2007 Act shortly after the relevant to drive effective LAA scrutiny but carefully balances provisions of this Bill come into force. this with the need to allow local flexibility. That is why, On the scope of the regulations, my noble friend for example, we have not attempted any complex Lady Andrews said in Committee that we support the definition of scrutiny support and resources. principle of cross-boundary scrutiny. She also said While we are creating a statutory post, we are that any extended arrangement would need to be deliberately not prescribing detailed duties that the considered in the context of the powers that may be scrutiny officer must carry out or at what level the provided to overview and scrutiny committees under scrutiny officer should be, a point raised by the noble the 2007 Act. Our intention is that such overview and Lord, Lord Hanningfield, in Committee. The level of scrutiny committees—where they are established, which other statutory posts, such as the monitoring officer will be completely at the discretion of the authorities and the finance officer, are implicit from the legislation concerned—will be provided with appropriate powers, because of the complex and extensive duties that they in line with the proposals that we set out for overview must discharge. We have not set out a list of the duties and scrutiny committees in our Improving Local that a scrutiny officer must perform on the basis that Accountability consultation. These proposals were broadly the role of the scrutiny officer may need to vary from welcomed by the local government community. Those one local authority to another, depending on the way are our intentions but, as I said, we will want to work in which scrutiny is organised in any particular council. with the LGA, the Centre for Public Scrutiny and We therefore believe that it is better for local authorities other representatives from local government to ensure to make arrangements that are appropriate for their that any regulations for these extended joint overview own circumstances. and scrutiny committees are appropriate and strike the right balance. Noble Lords raised concerns in Committee that the provision in Clause 29 is not sufficient and that one The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked about officer is not enough. Although the requirement is for disclosure and what we mean by, one statutory officer, we would expect local authorities “must … or may not disclose”, to decide what resources they need to allocate to information. This would simply allow us to make scrutiny to suit their particular needs. I am sure that provision regarding what information must not be noble Lords will agree that it is not appropriate for us provided by certain partner authorities. In our recent to prescribe such detailed arrangements. As I have consultation, we set out proposals on this that were said, the approach that we have set out achieves the broadly welcomed by the authorities, which intend to right balance. follow this up using the same approach. On resources, studies on the development of overview In talking to Amendment 98, which would remove and scrutiny have shown that officer support is an Clause 29, I will address some of the other points important condition for effective scrutiny. If overview made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Clause 29 and scrutiny is to be effective, it is critical that officer provides for a designated scrutiny officer in councils resource is in place to provide support and advice. An 455 Local Democracy etc.[LORDS] Local Democracy etc. 456

[LORD PATEL OF BRADFORD] Baroness Warsi: My Lords, they are grouped together. evaluation of the outcomes and impact of new council constituents, for example, made three key points that The Lord Speaker: My Lords, I apologise to the support this: first, that scrutiny arrangements are not noble Baroness. They are grouped together and she is as robust as executive arrangements; secondly, that absolutely in order to speak. less officer support is provided for scrutiny compared with executive functions; and, thirdly, that scrutiny works best and is more robust where resources are Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, the noble committed. Baroness is absolutely right that the two amendments We have also consulted extensively on how to are grouped together. However, it is appropriate, I implement the proposals for scrutiny support that believe, for me to establish that the Minister was were set out in the White Paper Communities in Control. speaking early in the debate. It is now appropriate for As I have said, views were mixed and we have chosen the noble Baroness to respond and to speak to her to strike the right balance in this process. amendments. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said that my noble friend had commented on this resource being 3.30 pm ring-fenced. I should make it clear that it is not. If the Baroness Warsi: My Lords, I am grateful to the provision is enacted, we will ensure that resources are noble Baroness for her guidance. As one of the newer provided through future finance settlements in line Members of your Lordships’ House, I look to your with the wishes of local government, but the vast Lordships for guidance. majority of government funding provided for non-school I am grateful that the Government have heeded our services is through general grants, such as the revenue advice and I am delighted to support their amendment. support grant or the new area-based grant, so local Although the amendment does not go as far as we authorities have considerable freedom to determine would like, the Bill is improved by its inclusion and we their spending priorities. The Government are committed welcome that. We on these Benches, however, would to ensuring that local authorities have the flexibility to like to see greater flexibility and a greater ability for ensure that they can make local decisions on the councils to set up joint scrutiny committees on specific provision of funding for the services for which they projects or schemes where joint working is needed, have statutory responsibilities. often across county boundaries. We have no intention of taking particular measures I am sure that my noble friend Lord Hanningfield against particular authorities. We will regulate in line will approve of my using an Essex example. On matters with our response to the consultation on implementation involving Stansted Airport, for example, it will be a of the 2007 Act. question of Essex County Council working with East These provisions considerably strengthen the Hertfordshire, whereas on issues surrounding the Thames arrangements for overview and scrutiny. I am grateful Gateway the appropriate partners might be the GLA to noble Lords who brought to our attention the fact or Kent County Council. The Government recognise that joint scrutiny should be made. We have listened the logic of allowing the joint scrutiny but have stopped carefully to those views and I hope that the explanation short of allowing a more organic creation of such that I have given will provide sufficient assurances on committees. An enduring theme of our debates on this Amendments 99, 100 and 170 to 172 and that the Bill is the Government’s apparent reluctance to accept noble Baroness will withdraw Amendment 98. I hope that kind of bottom-up flexibility rather than top-down that I have covered all the points that she made. If not, centralisation. However, when the Government try to I shall respond in writing. make this a better Bill, we support their efforts.

Baroness Warsi: My Lords, I am not sure at what Lord Patel of Bradford: My Lords, I thank the point I should speak on this, but it is important that I noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, should clearly lend my support to the Government’s for their support and I certainly heed the points that amendments. Both my noble friend Lord Hanningfield they have made. Before the noble Baroness, Lady and I have put our names to the amendments tabled Hamwee, replies, I would like to clarify the disclosure by the Minister. We have done so because the Government issue. Information that may not be disclosed, for example, have clearly listened to what the Opposition and other would be information otherwise exempt under other noble Lords said in Grand Committee. I am grateful legislation, such as data protection. Also, provision that the Government have heeded that advice and have may be made to avoid duplication of requests. For been prepared to cede ground. example, if a partner has already provided such information, the same information might not be required The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall a second time. Our proposals also set out the information of Blaisdon): My Lords, it is not appropriate for the that should be provided, such as on local area agreement noble Baroness to respond to the Minister at this matters to which the partners signed up. I hope that point. that helps to clarify what I said.

The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): My Lords, Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, perhaps I can take perhaps I might assist the House. I think that the this in reverse order. First, on the points that I raised, I noble Baroness may be addressing Amendment 99 am grateful to the Minister for confirming that there when we are still on Amendment 98. will not be ring-fencing, as it was stated on 3 February 457 Local Democracy etc.[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy etc. 458 at col. GC 173 that money would be ring-fenced. We (4) In subsection (2) references to making reports or are much happier that it should not be, although of recommendations to a local authority include, in the case of a course it is often quite difficult to identify whether local authority operating executive arrangements under Part 2 of the Local Government Act 2000, making reports or recommendations there is any additional funding when it is not ring-fenced. to its executive. This does not mean that there will be an extra officer. I (5) Regulations under this section may in particular— fully accept that having a designated officer may raise (a) provide for arrangements to be made only in the status of the work but it does not necessarily mean circumstances, or subject to conditions or limitations, that there will be any extra officer resource. specified in the regulations; I am reassured to hear what the Minister has said (b) in relation to joint overview and scrutiny committees, on disclosure under the government amendment, but make provision applying, or corresponding to, any the new clause is drawn very widely. I am sorry to bowl provision of— this at the Government without notice, but I wonder (i) section 21(4) and (6) to (12) of the Local whether they might consider withdrawing this amendment Government Act 2000, now in order to use the period between now and Third (ii) sections 21A to 21D of that Act, or Reading to reconsider this. I assure them that from (iii) section 246 of, and Schedule 17 to, the National these Benches we will be very supportive of the thrust Health Service Act 2006, of the amendment, which is a good amendment. I am with or without modifications; waffling to give an opportunity for some thought, but (c) make provision as to information which an associated the time until Third Reading could be used to draw up authority of any appointing authority must provide, or something more precise about the restrictions on may not disclose, to a joint overview and scrutiny disclosure. The noble Lord is quite right to remind the committee (or, if the regulations make provision for the House that there is a positive and negative in the appointment of sub-committees of such a committee, to sentence on what must be provided, but the interests such a sub-committee). of transparency and open government have to be (6) In subsection (5)(c) “associated authority”, in relation to considered if we are to limit what must not be disclosed. any appointing authority, means— If the Government would consider using the opportunity (a) in the case of an appointing authority which is a to improve their own legislation, we would welcome it. non-unitary district council— (iv) the related county council, and Lord Patel of Bradford: My Lords, we cannot withdraw (v) any person who is a partner authority in relation to the amendment at the moment. We have consulted the related county council; widely on it and consider it the most appropriate (b) in the case of any other appointing authority, any person formulation based on the 2007 legislation. who is a partner authority in relation to the appointing authority. Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am disappointed by (7) In subsection (6) “partner authority” has the same meaning that response; I thought that I was being constructive. as in Chapter 1 of this Part except that it does not include a police I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 98. authority or a chief officer of police. (8) Regulations under this section may not make provision of Amendment 98 withdrawn. a kind mentioned in subsection (5)(c) with respect to information in respect of which provision may be made in exercise of the Amendment 99 power conferred by section 20(5)(c) or (d) of the Police and Justice Act 2006 (guidance and regulations regarding crime and Moved by Baroness Andrews disorder matters). 99: After Clause 29, insert the following new Clause— (9) Any local authority and any joint overview and scrutiny “Joint overview and scrutiny committees committee must, in exercising or deciding whether to exercise any (1) In the Local Government and Public Involvement in function conferred on it by or under this section, have regard to Health Act 2007 (c. 28), for section 123 (joint overview and any guidance issued by the Secretary of State. scrutiny committees: local improvement targets) substitute— (10) In this section— “123 Joint overview and scrutiny committees “local authority” has the same meaning as in Part 2 of the (1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision Local Government Act 2000; under which any two or more local authorities in England may— “non-unitary district council” means a district council for a district in a county for which there is a county council (and the (a) appoint a joint committee (a “joint overview and “related county council”, in relation to a non-unitary district scrutiny committee”), and council, means that county council).” (b) arrange for the committee to exercise any functions in (2) In section 21 of the Local Government Act 2000 (c. 22) subsection (2). (overview and scrutiny committees), in subsection (2A)(e), for the (2) The functions in this subsection are functions of making words from “(joint” to the end substitute “(joint overview and reports or recommendations to— scrutiny committees) appointed by two or more local authorities (a) any of the local authorities appointing the committee including the authority concerned”.” (the “appointing authorities”), or Amendment 99 agreed. (b) if any of the appointing authorities is a non-unitary district council, the related county council, Clause 30: Functions of joint overview and scrutiny about any matter which is not an excluded matter. committees (3) In subsection (2) “excluded matter” means any matter with respect to which a crime and disorder committee could make a report or recommendations— Amendment 100 (a) by virtue of subsection (1)(b) of section 19 of the Police Moved by Baroness Andrews and Justice Act 2006 (local authority scrutiny crime and 100: Clause 30, leave out Clause 30 disorder matters), or (b) by virtue of subsection (3)(a) of that section. Amendment 100 agreed. 459 Local Democracy etc.[LORDS] Local Democracy etc. 460

would add “connected authorities”, as defined under Amendment 100A Clause 2 of this Bill, to Section 22A so that those Moved by Lord Tope partners would be under a duty to provide information 100A: After Clause 30, insert the following new Clause— to overview and scrutiny committees once this provision “Local Government Act 2000 and the necessary regulations came into force. (1) Section 22A of the Local Government Act 2000 (c. 22) It would seem, from what the noble Lord says, that (overview and scrutiny committee of certain authorities in England: he believes that this amendment would provide overview provision of information etc by certain partner authorities) is and scrutiny committees with the power to require amended as follows. partners to attend. It would not. This issue of partner (2) In the heading after “authorities”insert “and other connected attendance was discussed at length during the passage authorities”. of the 2007 Act. Parliament agreed that partners (3) In subsection (1)(a) after “relevant partner authorities” should be required to provide information but that insert “and connected authorities”. attendance before a committee should be optional. We (4) After subsection (3) insert— said at the time, and I say again now, that we firmly “(4) For the purposes of this section “connected authorities” believe that it is not necessarily appropriate to impose shall mean authorities which are connected with the authority as a blanket requirement on partners to attend in person. specified by section 2 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009 with the exclusion of Where councillors are working in partnership with chief officer of police.”” such a broad range of public service providers, some of whom are not based locally, it is not necessarily Lord Tope: My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 100A appropriate to allow overview and scrutiny committees —I think to everybody’s surprise at this point. We to compel attendance. debated the amendment in Committee, but the Minister’s We must also be mindful of the potential burdens reply was disrupted by a Division, so I return to the that are placed on partner authorities, some of which subject now so that we might give our concentration will have limited capacity to respond. It is, of course, to it. important to provide overview and scrutiny committees My noble friend Lady Hamwee and I need no with the powers that they need to carry out their work, convincing of the importance of good and effective but we must strike the right balance. We think that we scrutiny. As I said in Committee, we each spent eight have achieved this. This is evident from our recent years of our lives on a body devoted almost entirely to Improving Local Accountability consultation. We have scrutiny—the London Assembly. We need no convincing consulted on the regulations that will provide overview of the need to strengthen scrutiny. My noble friend and scrutiny committees with the power to require has just spoken of the limited effect that the designation information from relevant partner authorities. We are of a scrutiny officer is likely to have. This amendment, now in the process of drafting these regulations. The if enacted, would have more effect than probably any proposals that we set out in that consultation were other single measure in strengthening the visibility, broadly welcomed by local government stakeholders. status and effectiveness of overview and scrutiny In fact, a significant number of responses opposed committees. overregulation on the issue of attendance, taking the view that such matters should be left to local discussion The amendment would give local authorities’ overview and agreement, on the basis that it would not always and scrutiny committees the power to require the be necessary, or cost-effective, to require attendance in connected authorities to give evidence, either in writing person by partner authorities. and/or in person. In an ideal world, those authorities would respond simply to an invitation and there would Given my explanation and the evidence that I have be no need for any statutory requirement; in good presented from our recent consultation exercise, I hope partnerships, that is what happens now. However, it is that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment. A more likely to be necessary where the relationship is careful balance must be struck between giving overview either not as good as it should be or the particular and scrutiny committees the powers that they need to issues under consideration are rather more contentious. carry out their work and recognising the limited capacity If those other bodies knew that, if necessary, a legal of some partners to respond. Noble Lords will remember power could be used by the overview and scrutiny that this issue was discussed in detail during the passage committees to require their information, their evidence of the 2007 Act. I believe that we have achieved the and, if necessary, their attendance, that alone would right balance of powers and that we should not seek to raise the standing and status of those committees. add partners outside those named under Part 5 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health That is the purpose of the amendment. I hope that Act 2007 without proper justification and detailed in moving it again we are giving the Minister an consideration of the potential new burdens. I hope uninterrupted opportunity to give a considered response. that the explanation will be sufficient for the noble I again stress that our purpose is wholly consistent Lord to withdraw his amendment. with the Government’s intention of raising the status and effectiveness of scrutiny. I beg to move. Lord Tope: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister Lord Patel of Bradford: My Lords, I hope that I can for giving me a clear and uninterrupted response. If give a response without interruption on this occasion. the drafting is inappropriate, I shall have a word with Amendment 100A is concerned with those partner my parliamentary draftsmen, but I think that the authorities set out in Section 22A of the Local purpose and intention of the amendment is clear. As Government Act 2000 that must provide information things stand, if I understood the Minister correctly, to overview and scrutiny committees. The amendment these bodies may be required or requested to give 461 Local Democracy etc.[23 MARCH 2009] European Council: 19-20 March 2009 462 information. However, there is an important difference The Council agreed to improve supervisory co- between receiving information, desirable though that operation by pushing forward with colleges of supervisors is, and the ability to question and cross-examine on for all major cross-border financial institutions. We that information, which is, of course, the principal also agreed to adopt international principles on purpose of an overview and scrutiny committee. I am, remuneration in the financial sector, based on an of course, disappointed that the Minister does not feel approach which rewards long-term success rather than able to go just one more step along the road of making excessive risk-taking. We called on the Council and scrutiny effective, but under the circumstances I beg the European Parliament, leave to withdraw the amendment. “to rapidly reach agreement on the legislative acts relating to credit rating agencies, the solvency of insurance companies, the Amendment 100A withdrawn. capital requirements for banks and cross-border payments and electronic money.” At its next meeting in June, the Council will take European Council: 19-20 March 2009 the first decisions on regulation and supervision in the Statement EU following the Larosière report. Our policy is that regulatory rules should be set at an international level 3.43 pm but that direct supervision is a matter for our national authorities. The Council was clear that, by acting The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall together, the EU can, of Blaisdon): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I “put its financial sector on a sound footing, get credit flowing to shall now repeat a Statement made in another place by the real economy, and protect its citizens from the worst impacts my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. of the crisis”, “With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to as well as helping to build a stronger economy for the make a Statement on the European Council held in future. Brussels last Thursday and Friday, which I attended with my right honorable friends the Chancellor and The Council also welcomed the Commission’s proposal the Foreign Secretary, and which, once again, emphasised to double, to ¤50 billion, balance of payments assistance the importance of European and international so that those within the European Union have the co-operation to address the financial crisis. support they need to deliver the fiscal stimulus required to ensure their recovery. But with global capital flows In October and November, all European and then in 2008 down by more than 80 per cent compared with G20 countries agreed to recapitalise the banks. In 2007, and the financing gap for emerging economies November, both the European Union and the G20 this year up to $800 billion, this is not just an issue for agreed on co-ordinated fiscal action to support the emerging economies. Because of the continuing employment and growth. Just as, at the last summit in risk of contagion, this is an issue for every country in December, Europe led the way towards a global climate the world, so it is vital that we increase the resources change deal in Copenhagen later this year, so Europe available to the IMF in order to ensure that it can has now made proposals in advance of the G20 to intervene to stabilise economies, stop the crisis spreading, reshape the global financial and trading system and and return the global economy to growth. The Council do what is necessary to build economic recovery across called for a very substantial increase in resources the world. available to the IMF; and agreed that, for their First, we agreed that the global challenges we face contribution to this increase, as a first step EU member today cannot be met if nations turn inwards to a states should provide, on a voluntary basis, a fast protectionism that, history tells us, in the end protects temporary support of IMF lending capacity in the no one. Our agreement to, form of a loan of ¤75 billion or over $100 billion. “avoid all forms of protectionist measures”, The Council called for continued, requires monitoring by the World Trade Organisation. “international co-ordination of fiscal stimulus measures”. The Council agreed to encourage international trade It agreed that, by facilitating trade credits, and called for a, “good progress has been made in implementing the European “swift conclusion of bilateral trade negotiations and of the WTO economic recovery plan”, Doha development agenda.” Secondly, we agreed measures to put to the G20 for and that while we must ensure fiscal sustainability in global agreements to reshape the regulation of banks the medium term, and financial services. We agreed that all systemically “the size of the fiscal effort—around 3.3 per cent of GDP or over important institutions should be subject to appropriate 400 billion euros—will generate new investments, boost demand, create jobs and help the EU move to a low-carbon economy”. regulation and oversight; and that this would extend to include hedge funds and the shadow banking sector. The Council also agreed a further ¤5 billion to be We pledged to protect the world’s financial system invested for stimulus projects in energy security, renewable from non-transparent, non-co-operative and loosely energy and broadband. This agreement provides for at regulated jurisdictions, including offshore centres and least ¤220 million of additional investment in UK tax havens. We welcome the progress which has already carbon capture and storage, and offshore wind projects. been made by Switzerland, Austria, Andorra and We have seen an unprecedented fiscal injection Lichtenstein, and look forward to seeing them implement in every major economy—in France a package worth the international standard rapidly. We call on those ¤26 billion with further, more recent, measures worth countries yet to endorse the international standard to ¤2.6 billion; in Spain, an infrastructure package do so urgently. worth ¤11 billion alongside other measures, with the 463 European Council: 19-20 March 2009[LORDS] European Council: 19-20 March 2009 464

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] Was there discussion of our renewables target of 15 per IMF estimating a total stimulus spend of 2.3 per cent cent by 2020? The Guardian today says that everyone of GDP; and, in Germany, not one but two fiscal knows that that target is “hopeless”. stimulus packages, together totalling ¤82 billion; Can the noble Baroness explain the strategic purpose 1.5 per cent of its GDP this year and 2 per cent of of the Eastern Partnership, involving nations with GDP in 2010. dubious regimes such as Belarus and stretching to the As the Council concluded, its determination is Caspian Sea? The Eastern Partnership excludes the “to do what is necessary to restore jobs and growth”. three strategic powers impacting on that region, namely: The Council also reached important conclusions Russia, Turkey and Iran. What talks have there been on energy security and climate change, on the Eastern with those nations about the Eastern Partnership, and Partnership and on relations with the United States. what have been their reactions? Also, what is meant by The Council remains committed to working for a full visa liberalisation with Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, worldwide and comprehensive climate change Armenia, Moldova and Azerbaijan? What timetable agreement in Copenhagen later this year. Following do the UK Government advocate for that, and what last December’s Council, Europe became the first thought was given to the risks of easing human trafficking continent in history to make legally binding the detailed from nations such as Moldova? policies required to set itself on a path to a low-carbon In this Statement there are, naturally, ringing phrases economy, with a commitment to a 30 per cent reduction about the Doha round. We can all agree on those, but in emissions, provided that other countries make can the noble Baroness give us even one view of what comparable commitments according to their capabilities. specific progress has been made since the last summit? Our success in Copenhagen, however, will depend also Were any questions raised at the summit about threats on unlocking negotiations with developing countries. to free trade: for example, French comments on The Council therefore agreed that the European Union repatriating jobs to France from Slovenia? will, within the framework of a future comprehensive climate agreement, take on its fair share of financing It is vital to restore confidence in the financial for green technologies, reducing deforestation and sector. I know that the Government feel that we are protecting the poorest from the impacts of climate fortunate, in this country, to have the noble Lord, change. Lord Myners, on the case. There was talk in the The global economic downturn is no time to walk communiqué of tightening action on lightly regulated away from our commitments to the developing world. tax jurisdictions; perhaps the noble Lord will lead the The Council agreed that Europe should continue to Government’s drive on that. play a leading role in supporting developing countries It is right to explore areas of capital adequacy and in order to avoid jeopardising the progress achieved in transparency. Would that such key policy issues had recent years and undermining their economic and been addressed earlier, and the present discredited and political stability, and that commitments to increase confusing regime of tick-box regulation had not been development assistance and deliver on the millennium put in place by the Prime Minister. development goals must be honoured. The Council Within the EU, we already have a common fisheries also emphasised the importance of promoting stability, policy with rules laid down by countries with no good governance and economic development in its serious fishing interest. We can all see the results of eastern neighbourhood. that in the North Sea. Will the noble Baroness assure Finally, in looking ahead to the informal EU-US us that she will save us from the nightmare of a City of summit to be held in Prague next month, the Council London regulated from Tallinn and Bucharest or, welcomed the inauguration of President Obama and perhaps even worse, from Frankfurt and Paris? We reaffirmed the strategic importance of transatlantic can all foresee the potential dangers of that. Better relations. At this moment of international economic co-ordination may be desirable, but are there not real crisis, we are showing that Europe and the world can dangers in a single European regulator that overrides work together to achieve co-ordinated interest rate national regulation? cuts, a substantial fiscal stimulus, banking reform, new rules for tax havens and remuneration. I commend We are told that the Prime Minister is forging a this Statement to the House”. world consensus behind the British solution. Is the noble Baroness aware that it is not the British solution My Lords, that concludes the Statement. that other nations are commenting on but the British disease? We are back to the humiliation of the 1970s. Other countries are talking of massive fiscal stimulus. 3.52pm Has the noble Baroness seen today’s comments from Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I thank the Leader of the CBI that, the House for repeating the Statement. Within it, and “a further significant fiscal stimulus is unaffordable and would in its conclusions, there is much reference to the lead to businesses and households retrenching”. forthcoming G20 summit. Can the noble Baroness indicate what arrangements she will be making to Paragraph 12 of the conclusions says the Council, report to Parliament on that summit, since it meets on “reaffirms its strong commitment to sound public finances .... that same day that we rise for the Easter Recess? with sustainable public finances”. We welcome renewed commitments on climate change, The noble Baroness has enormous experience of the but was the EU trading emissions scheme addressed at European Commission. Does she think that that bit the summit, when the price of carbon is plummeting, was drafted by our own Prime Minister or by which actually encourages more carbon emissions? Mrs Merkel? 465 European Council: 19-20 March 2009[23 MARCH 2009] European Council: 19-20 March 2009 466

Last week saw the worst set of public finance On eastern Europe, I share the desire of the noble figures in our peacetime history. We are forecast to Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for clarification on the Eastern have the largest budget deficit of any G20 economy Partnership. However, I feel strongly that one of the next year—twice as large as the average for the G20 as great triumphs of the EU has been shepherding and a whole. We are in no position to lecture anybody. Is helping former east European communist dictatorships the noble Baroness aware that Europe is unanimous into democracy under its wing. Some of those democracies that cutting VAT was not the way ahead? Can she list are extremely fragile, so it is important that the EU any country in the EU that has copied this move? keeps up its responsibility for both good governance Britain is in the humiliating position of having the and economic stability in those areas. Similarly, we worst deficit in Europe. The Prime Minister is now welcome the ongoing commitment to Africa. In the forecast to have delivered a longer recession than the recent debate on aid, it was pointed out that this crisis United States or the eurozone; the deepest peacetime might drag some 60 million people back into absolute recession since the great depression; and, last week, poverty. It would be a tragedy if the positive actions the fastest rise in unemployment since records began. on Africa were a case of one step forward and two The policies that led the country into such a mess are steps back. not the policies to get us out of it. On the green agenda, it was interesting at Oral Finally, does the noble Baroness know if there was Questions today when the noble Baroness, Lady Symons any discussion at the summit about the sustainability of Vernham Dean, raised the German example of of the euro? Are we not fortunate—here I give credit scrapping old, polluting cars with a payment as an to the Prime Minister—that we are not caught like so encouragement to buy new ones. I wonder whether, many nations in the EU in the straitjacket of the euro rather than our simply point scoring over other countries, and unable—dare I say it?—to find British solutions an exercise in best practice and good ideas would not for British problems? As long as the Government stick be worth while. to their no-euro line, they will be supported by the The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, is right about Conservative Party. the situation in the City of London. We must be alert to the fact that, in trying to get both European and global control of these now-tainted captains of the 3.58 pm universe, we should not bring in a plethora of regulations Lord McNally: My Lords, I sometimes think of the that cripple what is still a great asset: the skills of the old ITMA character who used to say: City of London. On the other hand, I say to the City of London that it must not believe that it can have its “It’s being so cheerful as keeps me going”. cake and eat it in this respect. It must realise that some Certainly, when the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, of the exposed faults need genuine responses, and we reads out the litany of problems, with none of which I would support the Government in those. disagree, it is only fair that we face these issues firmly As for the euro, let us wait and see. I had always and resolutely. suspected that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, referred to the a closet Guardian reader, and I noticed today that depression in the 1930s. Europe faced the issues in Mr William Hague, also in the Guardian, says “never, disarray and competitive beggar-my-neighbour trade never, never” to membership of the Guardian. policies. It is encouraging, and something to be welcomed, to find that, at a moment of not only national crisis but of world crisis, the Europe of today has been able Lord Strathclyde: The euro. to meet, as it has done, and the Prime Minister has been able to come back with positive gains in terms of co-ordinated action. We certainly welcome them. I do Lord McNally: “Never, never , never” to membership not think it is churlish to point out that it might have of the euro, my Lords; although he probably says the been even better if Europe had not been lectured for Guardian as well. He goes on to say that that is not an a decade or more both by the Prime Minister and ideological position. If it is not an ideological position, Mr Blair about the successes of Anglo-Saxon capitalism I do not know what is. We remain convinced that there as against the weaknesses and failings of old Europe. may come a time when it is massively in British interests However, we shall let that pass. The co-ordination that to be in the euro. Talking about cake and eating it, I is going on is really to be welcomed. suspect that the City of London cannot permanently A little commercial: I welcome the statement on tax get all the benefits of being the major trader in the havens and hope that when we debate them in this euro from outside the eurozone. The City should think House on Thursday on a Liberal Democrat Motion, about those consequences. whichever Minister comes along will be able to give us This is a good work-in-progress Statement and we specific examples of how the Government are taking support it in that respect, particularly since, perhaps a action on British-ruled tax havens. decade too late, the Prime Minister seems to have On the Doha round, I recently went to a briefing by discovered Europe. our own noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, who was quite optimistic that we could get Doha back on track. She 4.05 pm estimated that something like 20 per cent of the issues were still to be decided. Of course, they will be the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful difficult 20 per cent. Nevertheless, do the Government for the support for this “work-in-progress” Statement, have a timetable for the completion of Doha? as the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, put it. 467 European Council: 19-20 March 2009[LORDS] European Council: 19-20 March 2009 468

Lord McNally: It was me. be strengthened. We have made it clear that this includes the sovereignty of national supervisors, such as the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Lords, I am sorry; I FSA. The key is for the EU as a whole to work beg the pardon of the noble Lord, Lord McNally. together better. We are clear that the City of London This is an important Statement which very much should remain the jewel in the crown. leads up to the G20 summit, mentioned by the noble The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, asked whether Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who asked how I would report anybody else has announced cuts in VAT. There was on it to Parliament. The G20 summit is on a Thursday, an agreement last week on new general areas where which means that there will be no immediate opportunity VAT can be cut. It includes the long-standing French for me to report orally, but I am sure that the Prime priority of reducing VAT on restaurant bills. We expect Minister will make a Written Statement, and I will a VAT cut this year in time for summer holidays. This make sure that it is provided to noble Lords in the is new information that has just arrived for noble usual way. Lords who are going on holiday to France. We must The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, began by asking remember that there truly was consensus at the summit various questions about the carbon price and the that fiscal stimuli, such as the one that we are engaged renewables target. The December 2020 package committed in, are important in safeguarding the economy of the the EU to reduce centrally the carbon targets. This European Union. It is great that the Government are will deliver substantial cuts in emissions and will place working together with their partners and are not trying limits on the number of credits that can be bought in. to work in isolation. This means that action will need to be taken in European Manoeuvrability for possible future fiscal stimuli is countries. The economic context, of course, means a matter that the Chancellor will consider in the that as output reduces, demand for carbon will fall, forthcoming Budget. I draw noble Lords’ attention to and we are confident that the tightening up of the EU the fact that the IMF has said that there is room in our ETS under the 2020 package will still deliver emissions economy for further fiscal stimuli, should they be reductions. Renewables were not discussed because necessary. Tax havens are a matter that the G20 will, the focus was on climate finance. We believe that the of course, address. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, UK target of 15 per cent is ambitions in itself. I should raised more general principles, asking whether the draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that in respect Government were isolated in the European Union by of renewables ¤40 million will be allocated for an what they are doing about fiscal stimuli, and so on. I Aberdeen offshore wind testing centre as part of the draw the noble Lord’s attention to a table that I have EU economic recovery plan. That is a very welcome before me, which I will make available to him and the step forward. noble Lord, Lord McNally. It shows that we are not at The noble Lords, Lord Strathclyde and Lord McNally, all on a limb and very much in the mainstream, mentioned the Eastern Partnership which will be launched working on projects similar to those of our colleagues in Prague under the Czech presidency. This is a very in the European Union. I look forward to further welcome move because, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, questions. said, many of the democracies in those countries are very fragile, and for the peace and stability of our continent it is important that we work with them and 4.13 pm assist them in whatever ways we can with democracy Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, I thank the building, capacity building and so on. Essentially, that Leader of the House for the Statement. Before the is what the Eastern Partnership relates to. I well understand European super-regulator joins the European army the concern expressed that major countries such as among the men of straw that get set up and knocked Russia are “excluded”, but they can be invited on a down regularly in this House, will she confirm that case-by-case basis to take part in meetings or projects, there is extraordinary consistency and coherence between although Russia will not be invited to the summit. the ideas put forward for regulatory reform in this Russia has decided not to take part in the European country by my noble friend Lord Turner and those put neighbourhood policy. forward by Monsieur de la Rosière to the European On Doha, my noble friend Lady Ashton was, in Union and endorsed by the European Council? If that fact, in Washington last week. As I understand it, she is the case, I am not sure what we are all so frightened had rather successful conversations with her new about. There is consistency between those approaches. counterpart in the US Administration, but clearly My noble friend Lord Turner dealt with the European their position on Doha will not be clear for a short dimension in his report and he believes that it is while. There are also elections in India, the other key reconcilable with continuing to regulate the City of country in which there were problems in the earlier London ourselves. phase of negotiations. Until India has a new Government, I have a couple of questions about the climate we will not really know where the Indians are coming change and energy security parts of the European from. The Government are working very hard to Council. I welcome the fairly modest progress that was ensure a successful conclusion to the Doha round. registered there, but will the Leader of the House The Government, like both noble Lords, believe confirm that the European Union will quite soon need that the City of London is a jewel in the crown and to come forward in the global negotiations on climate that we have to preserve it. Of course, it cannot have change with a rather clearer picture of what the European its cake and eat it. It must accept that there has to be Union is prepared to put into the kitty to help developing better regulation. Both the Government and the European countries to make the adaptations and transfer the Council are clear that regulation and supervision must technology that is needed if they are to undertake 469 European Council: 19-20 March 2009[23 MARCH 2009] European Council: 19-20 March 2009 470 obligations too? I am sure that tactically there is a extent, have a useful purpose, exerting some pressure good case for not putting out a figure at this stage of on spendthrift Governments to moderate their demands the year but that will not last for very long. If it does, on business in particular? the negotiations will get nowhere. On energy security, will the noble Baroness tell us Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I fundamentally whether the European Union is now moving from disagree with the noble Lord. I do not believe that this warm words to deeds—a process that has taken an is an opportunity for Governments across the European awfully long time? When the Council conclusions refer Union to grasp power, as he puts it. This is not just to dealing with emergency situations in the gas sector, about EU countries; it is a global issue, which is why it will she confirm that the Government will not exclude is being discussed at both the European Union level from consideration the possibility that member states and the G20 level. Many Governments feel very strongly should have a legal obligation to maintain reserves of about it. The Government are looking forward to the gas, just as they already have a legal obligation to Foot review on tax havens as it will inform our approach maintain reserves of oil? It would make an enormous to the UK’s own Crown dependencies and overseas difference if that obligation applied to all 27 member territories. We are absolutely committed to meeting states, just as the measures adopted after the crises of our international responsibilities to the proper standards. the 1970s helped us to deal with an oil crisis. Perhaps We are also determined to take action on this not just the noble Baroness can say something on those points. within the European Union but globally.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, in relation Lord Ryder of Wensum: My Lords, the Minister has to regulation, there are many issues on which the failed to respond with her usual clarity to one of the reports of Monsieur de Larosière and the noble Lord, questions posed by my noble friend Lord Strathclyde. Lord Turner, agree, and the Commission is looking Paragraph 12 on page 4 of the presidency conclusions very carefully at them both, as are this Government. document published two days ago states that, As I understand it, in the not-too-distant future the “The European Council reaffirms its strong commitment to Commission will bring forward proposals and the sound public finances”. Government will bring forward a White Paper. All these things will be on the table and there will be a At the end of the paragraph, it goes on to say that it further discussion at the European Council in June, looks forward to member states, but it is absolutely right for the noble Lord to point “returning to positions consistent with sustainable public finances out that there is much agreement on many of these as soon as possible”. issues. In view of that fact and the fact that the International In relation to climate change, it is extremely important Monetary Fund stated quite unequivocally last week that, again in the not-too-distant future, the European that this country was going to suffer the deepest Council makes clear exactly what it will be able to do budget deficit of any country in the G20, precisely to assist developing countries so that they can be what steps are the Government taking to be consistent positively brought to the table and so that we can with the presidency conclusions that there should be reach agreement in Copenhagen. Again, we will return sound public finances as soon as possible? to this at the June Council meeting. On energy security, I believe that we are moving Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I regret that from warm words to deeds. I cannot make any detailed I did not respond earlier to the question put by the comments on gas reserves but it sounds a very interesting noble Lord. Strangely enough, the stability and growth proposal and I will come back to the noble Lord in pact was not a subject of great debate at the recent writing. However, it is clear from various discussions Council meeting, because all member states are in the that took place in Brussels last week that progress will same boat. The treaty says that member states should be made very soon on projects such as the southern endeavour to avoid breaking the stability pact—that corridor and Nabucco. These have been raised in is, the 3 per cent deficit and 60 per cent debt levels. We debate here in the past and are very important for will endeavour to do that when the time is appropriate. diversity of gas sources. The European Union wants In the Pre-Budget Report my right honourable friend absolute action on these issues to ensure that we have the Chancellor set out how we will consolidate our security of energy supply. position in the future. We know what we are working towards but now is not the time to take the necessary Lord Waddington: My Lords, the Statement and the action. On the IMF, I think that the article which we noble Lord, Lord McNally, referred to tax havens, but all read in a newspaper stemmed from comments does the Leader of the House agree that the activities made by a person who worked for the IMF. That is of tax havens have certainly not played a leading role absolutely fine. I am not sure that it reflects the IMF’s in the present crisis? Is this not a classic example of position as a whole, but I will come back to the noble Governments and the EU hoping to use a crisis to Lord in writing. seize unrelated powers which they have long wanted, just as after 9/11 Governments sought and gained Baroness O’Cathain: My Lords, I have two questions powers which affected the liberties of the citizen but relating to two issues in the Statement. The first is that had precious little to do with terrorism? Could we not the Council will accept international principles on be alert to this phenomenon, of which there have been remuneration. When is that likely to be agreed; how far too many examples? In fact, do not tax havens likely is it to be implemented; and when will it be create an element of tax competition and, to that implemented? The second is that the Council has 471 European Council: 19-20 March 2009[LORDS] Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities 472

[BARONESS O’CATHAIN] England, devolution for Scotland, Wales and Northern agreed to improve supervisory co-operation by pushing Ireland, independence for national statistics, the Human forward with colleges of supervisors for all major Rights Act, the Freedom of Information and Data cross-border financial institutions. Can we have some Protection Acts, reforms to the House of Lords and description of the colleges: how many will there be; party funding. what is the cost; and what is the timetable? It seems This Green Paper deals with some of the most like bureaucracy, and there is a smell of Nero fiddling fundamental questions we face as individuals and as a while Rome is burning. society: how we live together; what rights and freedoms we enjoy and from whom; and what duties and obligations Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I think that we owe and to whom. These issues are not abstractions an agreement on remuneration will be reached at the removed from the practical politics of jobs and housing, June Council when the Council considers the wider healthcare and education, crime and disorder, because package of regulatory reforms stemming from the de these constitutional arrangements determine how power Larosière report, the report by the noble Lord, Lord is distributed and, therefore, the conditions in which Turner, and so on. As for the supervisory colleges, I every other question in our public life will be answered. will have to come back to the noble Baroness in It is because of the centrality of these issues that my writing. This is not a question of Nero and people right honourable friend the Prime Minister chose to fiddling while Rome is burning: it is a matter of people make his first major policy statement, within days of seeking to act to ensure that our economic system is taking office, on exactly this matter of constitutional robust and can withstand all the pressures to which it change. My right honourable friend told this House is being subjected at present. I will certainly provide that it was right to involve the public, the noble Baroness with the information that she ‘in a sustained debate about whether there is a case for the United seeks. Kingdom developing a full British Bill of Rights and Duties’, as a step towards a written constitution. Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, why do Her The Green Paper presents the arguments for such a Majesty’s Government believe that an organisation Bill. It does not reach final conclusions—that is for the which has given us the common agricultural and fisheries end of the process of national discussion—rather, it policies and failed to have its accounts signed off by its sets the framework for this debate. Indeed, if by the own internal auditors for the past 14 years, there being end of the process the Bill is perceived to provide no external auditor, will be of much help in the present protection to rights and freedoms, it will become very worrying circumstances? Surely the EU’s track effective in defining common values so that people in record must lead us to fear that it will achieve disaster Britain of different backgrounds may feel ownership out of the present difficulties, especially as far as the of it. City of London is concerned. From the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Arbroath, the 1689 Bill of Rights and Scottish Claim Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, the important of Right, to the great reform Acts of the past two thing about the European Union is that it brings centuries, our history illustrates the proud traditions 27 member states together so that they can agree on of liberty on which our nation is built. Although the concerted action and work in co-operation. We believe profound changes which these great texts initiated that at a time of global crisis it is essential that were the subject of intense struggle at the time, the countries work together in partnership. That is what United Kingdom’s experience of constitutional we are doing in the European Union. We have every development has been unlike that of almost any other confidence that by working together and not in isolation democracy in the world. we will soon come out of the crisis and be able to meet future challenges together. The constitutional arrangements of most other nations have emerged from rebellion, revolution, civil war, occupation or oppression. The United States, France, Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities India, South Africa, nations across Europe and the Statement world, have had to set down their arrangements in a single text: a constitution, underpinned by declarations of rights. Whether legally enforceable or not, they 4.25 pm have become abiding points of reference on how their The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry citizens should relate to each other and to the state, of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, with the leave of the and they help to define the kind of nation they wish to House, I will now repeat a Statement made in another be. This Green Paper sets out the case for how a Bill place by my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor could become a similar unifying force for the United and Secretary of State for Justice. The Statement reads Kingdom; not least because our society is much more as follows: diverse in race, religion and ethnicity than at any point “With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to in our history. make a Statement on the Green Paper, Rights and We are launching this Green Paper at a time of Responsibilities: Developing our Constitutional Framework, great uncertainty and anxiety. Tackling the global laid before Parliament today. The Green Paper is the recession must be our immediate priority. But acting next stage in what has been described as a quiet at the same time to strengthen communities’ and revolution in our constitutional arrangements. Since individuals’sense of a stake in society, by better articulating 1997, we have had the independence of the Bank of the responsibilities that we owe and the rights that 473 Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities[23 MARCH 2009] Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities 474 we have, is not an alternative to decisive measures on respect for those public sector workers who care for the economic front, but an essential complement to us; responsibility towards the taxpayer not to claim them. benefits if able to work. One of the most significant constitutional changes If we are to fulfil our responsibilities, we have to in the past dozen years is the Human Rights Act. I have a clear understanding of what they are. As the worked hard as sponsoring Minister to achieve a Green Paper sets out, an accessible bill of rights and consensus behind it, and I commend the Official responsibilities could be emblematic of the fair society Opposition for the support that they gave the Act in its that we want to live in, where awareness of our rights final form. Prior to the Act, accessing convention is matched with a greater understanding of our rights via the Strasbourg court was a time-consuming, responsibilities to each other. expensive and difficult process and, as such, prohibitive Most of the social and economic rights to which I for many. Now those rights can be accessed in UK have referred are already embedded in law, but they courts, with cases heard by UK judges. are scattered across myriad legal texts. The Government The Act better protects the family. It has benefited believe that we should encapsulate these rights in a all sections of society, from the elderly couple wanting single document, bringing together the ‘new’ post-war to live in the same care home to the loftiest newspaper rights of social justice and the welfare state, victims’ magnate. In providing a more practical mechanism to rights, of equality and of good administration. access rights, as well as a positive obligation on the A key question set out in the Green Paper is whether state to protect them, countless thousands of people any Bill should have, directly or indirectly, the force of have benefited from the law, without necessarily having law. Bills of rights from around the world are a to resort to the law. combination of symbolism, aspiration and law across Despite this, the Act has its detractors, primarily a spectrum of legal effect. There need not be a binary because the atrocities of 9/11 occurred less than a year choice between the justiciable and the declaratory. As after the Act came into force. Had those tragic events the Green Paper points out, the Government do not not occurred, I suggest that the HRA would have necessarily consider a model of directly legally enforceable slipped comfortably into the fabric of our lives without rights or responsibilities to be the most appropriate. controversy. As it was, those terrible events threw into Even without full legal enforcement, words have acute relief the tension between liberty and security. power. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights We recognise these tensions, but the Government are contained no legally enforceable rights; rather, it was proud of the Human Rights Act. We will neither resile the global expression of a shared commitment, a from it nor repeal it. recognition of humanity’s common dignity, what Eleanor The principles and rights set down in the European Roosevelt described as the ‘Magna Carta for all mankind’. convention, and now in the Human Rights Act, are A bill of rights and responsibilities for the United timeless. They are the mark and measure of any Kingdom could be this kind of declaration to set in civilised society at any time. But in the intervening stone the values we cherish. 60 years, these rights have been added to by a great I have had the rare privilege to take through this extension of social and economic rights—of healthcare, House many of the constitutional changes of the past dignity in old age, education, housing and social security. 12 years, or have been closely involved with their But as our rights have become so much wider and development. Throughout that time, I have looked to stronger, one question is whether their claim is balanced secure the broadest political consensus behind them. properly by an equally strong sense of the responsibilities Reforms of such importance to our democracy require that we each owe. nothing less. Constitutional change should take place We believe that there is a case for drawing out more only on the basis of full and proper deliberation. This clearly and explicitly the responsibilities that go with Green Paper has been through such a process within rights. Duties and responsibilities are to be found in government and now it is time to take the debate out the convention, in statute, in common law and woven to the people we all serve. This deliberation must not deeply into our social and moral fabric. We have a and will not be rushed, and so this Green Paper will latent understanding and acceptance of our duties to not precede any legislation this side of a general one another and to the state. That said, responsibilities election. We are dealing here with the fundamental have been something of a poor cousin to rights. The building blocks of our democracy, and as the Prime Green Paper proposes that responsibilities are given Minister made clear: greater prominence in our constitutional arrangements, ‘Constitutional change will not be the work of just one Bill or the better to articulate what we owe as much as what one year or one Parliament’. we expect. This is how we can move away from a A bill of rights and responsibilities could form the ‘rights culture’ to a ‘rights and responsibilities culture’. next natural and necessary step in a process which Some responsibilities are obvious: obeying the law, began 60 years ago with the universal declaration. It is paying taxes, jury service. Others are less obviously an opportunity to bring together existing rights and recalled at the moment that they should be exercised: a responsibilities in one place and better to define the responsibility towards future generations by living relationship between citizen and state in a new and within environmental limits; the duty we have to unifying constitutional document fit for this century. I protect the well-being of children in our care; a civic commend this Statement to the House”. duty to vote; responsibilities towards our neighbours; My Lords, that concludes the Statement. 475 Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities[LORDS] Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities 476

4.38 pm On the right to a fair trial and trial by jury, paragraph 3.30 states: Lord Kingsland: My Lords, I have had only a very short time in which to glance at the Green Paper, “Much of the argument for enshrining a ‘right’ to jury trial into a constitutional document may be driven by the deep cultural which is 63 pages long. I believe that the noble Lord, attachment to jury trial, originally deriving from its inclusion in Lord Thomas of Gresford, has found himself in exactly Magna Carta. Notably, many other countries, including signatory the same boat. nations to the European Convention, do not have jury trials even Inevitably, in skimming a document as weighty as for the most serious cases—jury trial is not necessary for compliance with Article 6 of the Convention. Moreover, the arguments in this, one’s eye is attracted to those passages in which favour of jury trial in some serious cases are open to debate”. one has been most concerned in one’s political life. In those circumstances, when responding to what I have What better example do your Lordships need for to say, the Minister might find that he is in a position establishing the proposition that, for the Government, to point me to other parts that I have not been able to British history began in 1997? In their attempts effectively read that successfully refute my observations. That is a to remove the protection of habeas corpus in this risk that I shall have to take. country—your Lordships will recall the famous attempt to extend arrest without charge to 90 days—to reduce I have the impression that the Green Paper is a the circumstances in which individuals are entitled to massive exercise in sitting on the fence. If we needed jury trial and to change the burden of proof from any further proof that the Cabinet is deadlocked over beyond reasonable doubt to a balance of probabilities, enacting a Bill of Rights, here it is in this document. the Government have always justified themselves by Nothing confirms the state of utter confusion that claiming that these initiatives are consistent with the engulfs the Government more than paragraph 4.30: European convention. “If a Bill of Rights and Responsibilities took the form of an The worrying thing about that assertion is that they Act of Parliament, there would be a range of options for dealing probably do conform to the European convention with the Human Rights Act and the Convention rights. The Bill might subsume the Human Rights Act as part of the new Bill of because continental judges who sit in the European Rights and Responsibilities. The Bill of Rights and Responsibilities Court of Human Rights have no experience of our might preserve the Human Rights Act as a separate Act. It might system of criminal procedure and often little also be desirable to signpost the Convention rights in some way, understanding of it. for example by crossreference to make clear that neither they nor the Human Rights Act were affected by the new Bill”. One might expect the Government to have seen the folly of their ways in this crucial area of rights—heaven This is a monument to indecision. knows, they have been reminded to do so often enough Further confirmation of the Government’s state of by noble Lords throughout this House—and to have mind is furnished by Chapter 5, entitled New Steps. I taken steps to enshrine these great common law protections apologise to your Lordships for reading out another in legal form. passage but I think it is the most telling way to make But not a bit of it. If we turn to paragraph 3.31, this is the point. At paragraph 5.3 the Government state: what we learn: “It is that process of consultation upon which we now embark. “Additional protections in relation to liberty of the person or We intend to involve all parts of our country and our society in fair trials may not be necessary as the belief in their fundamental discussions both about the fundamental arguments for and against nature is already so deeply entrenched, culturally and politically, such a Bill of Rights and Responsibilities as well as the advantages and there is no fundamental threat to them”. and disadvantages of the individual components of any such Bill. Full consultation and debate about such a constitutional development I stop in the middle of the quotation simply to ask: will inevitably take some time. It cannot be the property of one can we really believe that? The Government then go Parliament and one Government. All sections of the UK will on to say: have a view. As part of the consultation process, we expect that “At this stage, the Government does not propose the inclusion of Parliament will want to make a contribution to the debate and we the principle of habeas corpus or a right to trial by jury in any will bring forward proposals for that in due course. The need for new Bill of Rights and Responsibilities, but it remains open to all such extensive consultation means that, if it were concluded that arguments for and against as part of an informed public debate”. the time was right for a Bill of Rights and Responsibilities, it would not be possible to bring forward any legislation before the Of the paragraphs I have read, I find that quite the next general election”. most astonishing in the whole document; because If, by some remote chance, the Government were to nothing is more important to the rule of law and win the next election, that should be substituted with democracy in our society than these common law “before the general election after the next general rights, which have been so severely undermined during election”. the past 12 years. Behind this political paralysis lies a forbidding The Green Paper is entitled Rights and Responsibilities. complacency about what has happened to individual In a legal sense, of course, as your Lordships’ well rights in our society since the Government came to know, these two are inextricably linked: a right generates power, despite their much vaunted Human Rights an obligation to respect it; equally, an obligation not Act. The undermining of personal privacy was described to do something to someone else gives someone else by the Joseph Rowntree Trust today as, an implied right. But the Government may well be trying to define responsibilities in some other way; if “the most invasive surveillance … of any western democracy”. they are, from my cursory reading, I am not clear what And it is soon to be amplified and further intensified it is. If they are trying to redefine responsibilities in by a centralised databank on all telephone and e-mail some way outside their strictly legal meaning, then I communications together with records of when we all have reached the preliminary conclusion that they travel abroad. have failed. 477 Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities[23 MARCH 2009] Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities 478

The main reason they have failed is because they The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, also referred to have concentrated on the responsibilities of the state habeas corpus. It is said to be “seldom used”. I drafted and local authorities. In the executive summary at the a habeas corpus writ about four weeks ago which beginning of the document it states: fortunately did not have to be used. It is a fundamental “Now is the time to discuss whether a Bill of Rights and freedom which we have enjoyed in this country for Responsibilities should bring together those rights which have centuries. The Government say: developed in parallel with the European Convention, but are not “At this stage, the Government does not propose the inclusion incorporated into it. A new Bill of Rights and Responsibilities of the principle of habeas corpus or a right to trial by jury in any could present the opportunity to bring together in one place a new Bill of Rights and Responsibilities, but it remains open to all range of welfare and other entitlements currently scattered across arguments for and against as part of an informed public debate”. the UK’s legal and political landscape”. We see, therefore, the return of the authoritarian But what about creating a society with room for attempt of this Government to cut down our traditional individuals to exercise responsibility? What about the freedoms. role of the family, where the fundamental values of life are imbibed, or at least ought to be? Indeed, one As I have very little time, I move on to welfare looks in vain in this document, at least in the short rights. One would have thought that if the European time I have had to study it, for any mention of the convention rights were to be expanded, something family as being the most important institution of all would be said about economic, social and cultural for establishing a responsible society. rights, which should be guaranteed. Paragraph 3.53, however, states: 4.48 pm “In drawing up a Bill of Rights and Responsibilities, the Government would not seek to create new and individually Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, just as I enforceable legal rights in addition to the array of legal protections thought the Government of Mr John Major would be already available”, remembered primarily for their cones hotline, so I in the field of welfare. Do not expect, therefore, this to thought that the only positive memory one would have be a charter for economic, social and cultural welfare of the Government that have been ruling this country rights. over the past 12 years was devolution and the Human One would have hoped that by now the Government Rights Act, both the legacy of the late and much would have considered incorporating the United Nations lamented John Smith. This Green Paper, in the very Convention on the Rights of the Child into English short time that I have had to look at it, is exactly about law instead of constantly saying it is an unincorporated resiling from the Human Rights Act. For example, convention which does not have any force. But they Article 2 on the right to life and Article 3 on the say: prohibition against torture are both absolute rights in “Any Bill of Rights and Responsibilities should allow for the European convention. In relation to the prohibition recognition that responsibility for many aspects of child wellbeing against torture, we still have not had the inquiry that is devolved and the different ways in which outcomes are achieved we have been seeking over the past few months about for children across the UK”. what has gone on in the torture of Guantanamo Bay There is nothing about incorporating the convention detainees. into English law. As to how it is to be enforced, Are these absolute rights to be undermined by paragraph 4.25 states: making them contingent on responsibilities? That seems “The Government does not consider that a generally applicable to be the thrust of the document. Paragraph 2.25 says: model of directly legally enforceable rights or responsibilities “It is fundamental to human rights theory that human rights would be the most appropriate for a future Bill of Rights and cannot be claimed or exercised by individuals without regard to Responsibilities”. the rights of others, and that most human rights (with exceptions In other words, you could not take a government like freedom from torture and slavery) are inherently subject to department to court for a breach of a British convention balance and qualification”. on rights and responsibilities that is now being put The paragraph ends: forward as a pale reflection of the existing rights and “It would be possible in a future Bill of Rights and Responsibilities responsibilities of the European Convention of Human to highlight the importance of factors such as an applicant’s own Rights which British lawyers drew up to emphasise in behaviour and the importance of public safety and security”. a war-torn Europe that human rights apply to human So when the Government talk about rights and beings. That is the important message that we should responsibilities, they are really saying that those take away. This is just a muddle; an attempt to palliate responsibilities, in the sense of an applicant’s own the Daily Mail while trying to keep on board those of behaviour, should be taken into account when he is us who have a fundamental belief in the future and the seeking to exercise the rights we currently enjoy in the continuation of human rights in this country. European convention. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has referred to 4.55 pm the familiar territory—old ground—about criminal Lord Bach: My Lords, I owe an apology to the two justice. Again, there is an attack upon the right to trial noble Lords on the Front Benches for not having by jury and an attempt to make it seem fusty and out arranged for them to have copies of the Green Paper of date by referring to its, beforehand. I apologise for their not having had longer “deriving from its inclusion in Magna Carta” to consider it. However, when they have had chance to in 1215, as opposed to the fact that every day and in do so a little more closely, their attitude, which they every major Crown Court in this country, jury trials, put over with the eloquence that I would expect from which have the confidence of the public, are being both of them, may change and they may regret some carried out. Here again we have this Government’s of the expressions that they used at first glance at the persistent, recurring theme of attacks on trial by jury. document. They have got it absolutely wrong. 479 Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities[LORDS] Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities 480

[LORD BACH] and to emphasise that most rights must be exercised The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, who is normally responsibly, bearing in mind the rights of others, so fair, says that, by starting a debate on this subject, rather than in isolation. Of course we believe in absolute the Government are somehow showing weakness and rights—for example, freedom from being tortured—so not making up their mind. That is rather an unfair I think that the noble Lord’s criticism was unfair, if I criticism. Let us just imagine the scene if I had come may say so, although I concede that he has not had here this afternoon and said, “Well, we’re going to long to read this document. I am disappointed that his introduce a new bill of rights and responsibilities. response was not slightly more welcoming for what is, Here’s what it’s going to say. We’re going to get it in many ways, an opening up of this serious subject, through Parliament before the next general election”. which needs discussion in this House, in another place The noble Lord would have quite rightly castigated me and around the country. and the Government harshly for doing something such as that without due consultation, without finding 5.01 pm out what people thought, without a draft Bill and Lord Pannick: My Lords, I welcome the Government’s without deciding what should and should not be in it. intention to promote discussion and debate on human I think that we have been rather unfairly treated this rights. While paying tribute to the achievement of this afternoon. This is a Green Paper to start a debate—as Government in securing the enactment of the Human it clearly has done—on the merits or otherwise of Rights Act, I ask the Minister whether he agrees that it having a bill of rights and responsibilities in this is difficult to promote public enthusiasm and indeed country. It is a perfectly serious issue that needs serious understanding of the Human Rights Act, a measure attention, which I am sure it will be given in due that simply implements an international convention course. and does not attempt, as a fundamental constitutional The attack on the Government for restricting freedom document should, to express its contents in terms again seems a little rich, bearing in mind that this is specific to the history, the values and the needs of this the Government who passed large amounts of equality country. Does he agree that that is the potential that a legislation, devolution legislation, the Freedom of British bill of rights and responsibilities offers? Does Information Act, the Data Protection Act, the Civil he agree that only such a document can perform the Partnerships Act, the Gender Recognition Act, the educative function that a constitutional document should Human Rights Act, new proposals for a further equality perform? Finally, does he agree that, if we are to move Bill, a Bill on welfare reform and the NHS Constitution to a British bill of rights and responsibilities which is a for England. I do not recall any of those measures fundamental constitutional document, which is principled, being put forward by the party that now suggests that which commands public support and which speaks to it is on the side of freedom and liberty. This legislation the ages, it is vital for the discussion and the debate has made millions of our citizens free in a way in to try, so far as is possible, to avoid party-political which they were not previously, which should be considerations? recognised. Trial by jury and the right to a fair trial were lauded Lord Bach: My Lords, I certainly agree with the by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. I remind him that noble Lord on that last point—we shall look for trial by jury is of course deep set in the British way of consensus. I thank him for his general support for the life, but his party restricted it for a number of offences Green Paper and the ideas behind it. I think that he when it was in power, as have all Governments. No has a point as far as the introduction of the Human party has for a very long time suggested that trial by Rights Act is concerned. He wrote an important article jury should be the remedy for every criminal wrong. It in the Times newspaper some months ago in which he should be available for those charged by the state with made the same point, among others, arguing that the serious criminal offences. We stand by that, as I know Government may have missed a trick when it introduced does the noble Lord. that Act in not setting out more clearly and in more The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, really detail the values and history behind its principles. I could not be more wrong when he claimed that the take the point and I hope that, if we got it wrong, we Green Paper is the death of the Human Rights Act will learn from that experience if there is to be a bill because we are going to make those rights contingent of rights and responsibilities in the future. Of course, on responsibilities. I know that he has not had long to one of the values of such a bill would be its educative look at the document, but I refer him to the first page effect and the way in which it would point out the of the executive summary, which states: history and tradition and bring up to date the rights “The Government is clear that the rights in the European and responsibilities that are crucial to the United Convention cannot be legally contingent on the exercise of Kingdom. There is nothing in what he had to say that responsibilities. However, it may be that responsibilities can be I can disagree with and I look forward to his contribution given greater resonance in a way which does not necessarily link to the debate. them to the adjudication of particular rights”. There is no question of fundamental human rights Lord Waddington: My Lords, is it not important being diluted or made conditional on fulfilling that the public should be aware of something fundamental responsibilities. A criminal may lose his or her right to said by the Minister, Mr Wills, and in the Statement— liberty by going to prison, but nothing could lawfully namely, that the Government have not even made up detract from his or her right to a fair trial or to be free their mind whether the new rights specified in the from ill treatment by the authorities. A bill of rights Statement should be enforceable in the courts? Does and responsibilities provides an opportunity to set out not that really expose an enormously difficult problem? the relationship between rights and responsibilities If the Government determine that the new rights 481 Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities[23 MARCH 2009] Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities 482 should be enforceable in the courts, will there not be Human Rights Act is expressed. Does the Minister legitimate fears of a flood of litigation? If they decide accept that we are the only country in the world for that the new rights should not be enforceable, how on which the first question is the very odd, “Is this earth can they guarantee that outcome? Have there compatible with a convention right?”, whereas for the not been plenty of examples in the past few years of rest of the world the first question—apart from “Is it the courts and the ECHR claiming jurisdiction when right?”—would be, “Is this compatible with our bill of the Government thought that they had cast-iron rights”? If the Government wished to persuade the safeguards written into the legislation that they were public to feel warmly about human rights, would it not passing to prevent that from happening? have been more sensible to produce what we hoped that they would—a bill of rights and freedoms that Lord Bach: My Lords, my right honourable friend did not detract from the convention but added those Mr Wills was quite right. One issue for debate is that, few extra rights that are lacking in what we now have? if there is a bill of rights and responsibilities, what Why was that strategy of building on the convention should be the consequence of breaching those and the Human Rights Act as I have described not requirements of an Act of Parliament? A bill could even mentioned in this document or, as far as I know, take a variety of approaches across a spectrum of in any other? legal effect. Even if it had a merely declaratory effect, as some bills and Acts around the world do, such an instrument could still have considerable political and Lord Bach: My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble symbolic value. The bill of rights and responsibilities Lord, Lord Lester, and thank him for the help that he could also provide for different legal effect in relation gave when he was advising the Government. I put on to different rights. Of course, they would have to be set the record the fact that we regret that he felt the need out clearly; some could be enforceable through the to resign when he did. However, I am disappointed courts, whereas others could be expressed as principles that he is not in some ways enthusiastic about this that Parliament has passed and that courts could take Green Paper emerging to start a national debate on into account when trying cases. Principles could be moving the whole human rights debate forward. I intended either to have symbolic resonance or to would have thought that he, of all people, would in act as guidance for politicians making the law, many ways like to see the possible addition of other administrators applying the law and courts adjudicating rights related to the social and economic changes that the law. There is no need for every single right and have taken place since the post-war convention was responsibility as legislated for in such a bill to be negotiated and signed. The Green Paper does not deal justiciable. It is not necessarily the case. This is one with all the issues that he raises because, frankly, it matter that is crucial to the debate, which is really in tries to look forward and ask whether it is in this two parts: should we have such a bill and, if so, what nation’s interests to have a bill of rights and responsibilities. should be in it? It poses some of the issues that need to be considered if such a course is taken. Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, the Minister will be aware that I am in the strange position of The Lord Bishop of Chester: My Lords, without having spent 15 months as the unpaid independent wishing in any way to resile from the Human Rights adviser on these questions. I eventually resigned in Act and the discussion so far, may I ask the Minister November because I became convinced that the whether he agrees that there is a danger of the discussion Government would not propose anything that I thought being set up in terms of the power of the state and the was sensible in terms of constitutional reform. He will rights of the individual in a way that is too exclusive of be aware that I saw no reason to have two documents, all the other institutions of society that, it seems to me, one called the Human Rights Act and another called a embody our values? The noble Lord mentioned the bill of rights and responsibilities, the latter not proposing family; it is, in fact, mentioned in paragraph 2.33, but any new enforceable rights or even adding new very briefly. In our society, beyond the family or other responsibilities. Today, we have heard the Minister groups, we now have whole communities with particular seeking to justify what is now in this document. I must ethnic traditions and backgrounds. How we allow disappoint him by saying that nothing that I have seen them an opportunity to flourish and to continue their and heard about it makes me think that I was wrong to traditions within the framework of British values is, it leave my post. seems to me, part of the key discussion that needs to I have a couple of questions. I shall certainly not take place. Let me choose the issue of education as an detain the House with a further explanation of why I example. A constant sniping at faith-based education think that the poet Horace might have said something tends to occur in our society. There must be a way of about the mountains labouring and producing something enshrining a right to education, coloured by the not very satisfactory. First, why does not the Green traditions of particular communities, which nevertheless Paper deal with the real, practical problem created by respects the fundamental values of our society. In the the YL decision, which means that private bodies consultation that is about to take place, may I urge exercising public functions are outside the scope of that a particular effort is made to consult the new the Human Rights Act? Why does not the Green communities and ethnic traditions that are part of our Paper or any other measure propose to fill that gaping society? The success of this operation will largely hole in the Human Rights Act as it stands? Secondly, depend not on a binary dynamic of the state and the building on a question asked by the noble Lord, Lord individual but on that whole area of society in between, Pannick, I wonder why the Green Paper does not which Governments cannot control and which transcends address the question of the language in which the individuals. 483 Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities[LORDS] Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities 484

Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to the right Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, perhaps I will be reverend Prelate for his remarks. We of course want pardoned if I do not join with the noble Lords, Lord this discussion and debate to go much wider than the Kingsland and Lord Thomas of Gresford, in the icy political classes. We want it to involve all of society. welcome that they gave to the Green Paper and the One difficulty is in getting people interested in a Statement. If one looks at the views expressed by debate such as this, which is why I hope that there will juridicial constitutional writers over the past century, be a programme later this year to take these ideas out one finds such a huge range of views expressed that into communities. That will of course include ethnic one could well say that it was a muddled situation. I minority communities and have an emphasis on families. have not read the Green Paper but it seems to me that One argument for the proposed bill is that it may be it refers to both the treasury of possibilities that exist desirable to have in one place, although they may not and the thicket of problems that are clearly attached necessarily be suitable as legally enforceable duties, the to almost every consideration. Perhaps I may therefore key responsibilities that we all owe as members of ask the Minister the following. Even though it is society, one of which might be safeguarding and sensible and inevitable that there should be no promoting the well-being of children in our care. That legislation before the next election, will he consider issue really affects everyone, as the right reverend publishing even before the next election a White Paper— Prelate was saying. Therefore, his comments will be not a paper of pristine whiteness; a paper possibly taken very much on board. with green edges—that sets forth some leadership on the part of the Government on this crucial, central Lord Soley: My Lords, I share my noble friend’s question which is the heart and kernel of it all, as to surprise about the puzzling situation of the two whether the rights and responsibilities that we are opposition parties confessing that they had not read talking about should be of a declaratory nature the paper but then going on to say that it is muddled. or whether they should have the binding force of It reminds me of the student who knew he was going legislation. to have trouble doing his homework so he got his strike in first. Both these parties have—if I may use an Lord Bach: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for inelegant legal term—form. Both the Conservatives his support. The initial plan is for the consultation and the Liberal Democrats supported the Prevention responses to be submitted by 15 June, in 12 weeks’ of Terrorism Act with its internal exile, and the time. We will use the evidence gathered from written Conservatives supported a ban on Gerry Adams being responses for our proposed regional events, which will broadcast on the BBC. They also supported certain take place over the summer and into early autumn. We aspects of locking people up without trial in Northern need to discuss with the devolved legislatures their Ireland, as indeed did my own party at times. It shows position on this. As I say, we do not propose to bring the delicacy of the relationship between society and forward any legislation in this Parliament. Before government. legislation is brought there will undoubtedly have to be a White Paper, and probably a fairly pristine White I have two brief points for the Minister. First, I very Paper in this case. I fear that that White Paper may much welcome the rights and responsibilities argument. well not emerge until after the election. However, does he not accept that the responsibility bit has to be at least in part about education, because it is difficult to legislate for that? The other point we Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, does the need to remember in this debate is that technological Minister agree that one of the greatest threats to our change has a dramatic effect on society. The data civilisation, perhaps the greatest threat, comes from collection methods available to us now are a very violent Islamism? Does he further agree that all must important part not only of the protection of society be equal under our law, including women, gays and but of the need to enhance the rights of individuals. those who wish to convert from Islam to another faith, Perhaps we have not given enough attention to the and that Sharia law should therefore not be allowed to principles underlying the complexity of data and the go on holding sway in this country? Will this or any scientific methods of collecting them as we should more urgent legislation achieve that? have done. As a result of this change, society is fundamentally different from what it was even 50 years Lord Bach: My Lords, Sharia law does not hold ago, never mind 100 years ago. sway in this country.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble Lord Goodhart: My Lords, the Statement refers to friend, and I take his last point. One of the reasons we paying taxes as a responsibility. However, the duty to have raised the issue now is that British society has pay taxes is not mentioned in the Green Paper. If we changed so hugely over recent years, not least in the are to have a bill of responsibilities as well as of rights, field of technology. As for responsibilities, education should not the use of artificial tax avoidance schemes of course plays a crucial and vital part in those. We be made a breach of the responsibilities in that bill? hope that regardless of what view is ultimately taken on whether or not to have a Bill, the effect of the debate will be to bring out more into the public Lord Bach: My Lords, I am delighted to say that I domain the issue of the responsibility that we all owe think the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, will be playing each other and the responsibility that the state owes a leading role in the debate that will take place on this the citizen. Green Paper. 485 Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 486

Local Democracy, Economic Development Amendments 107 and 108 relate to the appointment and Construction Bill [HL] of the deputy chair. The post is important, and should the chairman be unavailable or cease to be able to hold Report (Second Day) (Continued) that office, the role of the deputy chair will clearly be as important as that of the chair. We therefore propose 5.21 pm that the same appointments process and procedure should take place for the deputy chair as for the chair. Clause 51: Boundary Committee for England The effect of Amendments 142 and 143 is that there should be no transitional arrangements. The Electoral Amendment 101 Commission and the Boundary Committee are very concerned indeed that if there is a gradual process of Moved by Lord Tope separation, the period of uncertainty for their staff 101: Clause 51, page 38, line 20, leave out “Boundary Committee and others will be all the greater. They state very for England”and insert “Local Government Boundary Commission for England” clearly that they see no need for this period and that the transfer should take place cleanly on the specified Lord Tope: My Lords, I shall speak also to the other date. 44 amendments in this group that are in my name and All of the amendments are sensible and I look the name of my noble friend Lady Hamwee. Mention forward to hearing the Minister’s acceptance. I beg to of 45 amendments in one group seems sufficient to move. clear the Chamber. I reassure noble Lords that 40 of these amendments say exactly the same thing and Lord Patel of Bradford: My Lords, I must admit relate to the name of the proposed body. that the noble Lord’s earlier offer nearly made me The Bill refers to the Boundary Committee for jump to my feet, and it is a shame that he withdrew it. England, but 40 of these amendments change its name Let me first address the amendments in relation to to the Local Government Boundary Commission for the name of the new body. When introducing these England. These amendments are supported by the provisions we sought where possible to minimise change, Electoral Commission, and the change that they would as the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said. As a result, we make makes sense. The capacity for confusion between were of the view that the existing name should be the present Boundary Commission and the Boundary retained. There is of course an argument that changing Committee for England is obvious, and that confusion the name of the Boundary Committee will in itself must recur again and again. The only explanation I cause confusion. However, I recognise that retaining have heard offered for choosing this name was that it the name of the Boundary Committee for England was the most minor change possible. Generally it could also result in continuing confusion with the seems preferable to make as little change as possible. It Parliamentary Boundary Commission for England, does not seem sensible to seek to cause the greatest which deals with parliamentary constituencies and is confusion possible. commonly known as the Boundary Commission. There Although the proposed name of the Local Government have been occasions in the past where those in Parliament Boundary Commission for England is a little longer, it and members of the public have been confused about has the great merit of actually describing what it is and the separate roles of these two bodies. what it does. Giving a body a clearly descriptive title is The noble Lord, Lord Tope, and the Electoral obviously desirable. It would also bring it into line Commission have put forward the name Local with the Local Government Boundary Commission Government Boundary Commission for England, which for Wales and the Local Government Boundary is of course in line with the names of the Local Commission for Scotland. To have a similarly named Government Boundary Commission for Wales and for body for England also seems sensible. Scotland. I assure the noble Lord that we will give full I hope that I shall achieve some success today in consideration to whether the proposed name is getting the Government to accept 40 amendments appropriate. On a technical point which I should draw from me. At that point I may well decide to quit. I see to the House’s attention, despite the noble Lord’s best that that is very tempting to the government Front endeavours, the amendments as they stand remove Bench. I did not mean it. references to the existing Boundary Committee, which Amendment 106 refers to the appointment of the would need to be retained. We would also need to chairman of the committee—or the commission, as I ensure that all references to the Boundary Committee hope it will be—being made on the recommendation are captured if we agree that a name change should be of the Secretary of State. The Electoral Commission made. I hope the commitment that we will give further has some concern, which I share, about the continuing consideration to the proposed name change provides part to be played by the Secretary of State. That does the noble Lord with the assurances he requires to not mean that there are doubts about any individual, withdraw his amendment at this stage. past, present or future. However, it is important that I should now like to address the amendments to these matters are not only done impartially but seen to Schedule 1, which relate to appointments to the new be done impartially. We therefore propose that the body. First, in relation to Amendment 106, I set out in appointment should be made on the recommendation Grand Committee why we believe that the Secretary of of the House of Commons rather than the say-so of State should be responsible for recommendations to the Secretary of State. It may seem like a small change, Her Majesty on the appointment of ordinary members but it is an important one to ensure that absolute of the new Boundary Committee. The Secretary of impartiality is seen and is beyond question. State’s role in making appointments to such bodies is 487 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 488

[LORD PATEL OF BRADFORD] are known, we should not table amendments to provide well precedented and is, in our view, wholly appropriate it with a role that it may believe is unnecessary. Thus, I in this instance. I gave clear assurances during the hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment. debate in Committee that the appointments process Finally, the noble Lord sought clarification on the will ensure that impartiality and independence are transitional provisions, which are set out in Clause 60 maintained. The Secretary of State would of course and Schedule 3 to the Bill. These transitional provisions adhere to the guidance of the Public Appointments relate only to the process by which the Boundary Commissioner. Committee’s final recommendations become electoral As I set out in Committee, there will be oversight change orders. For example, the Boundary Committee and audit of the process by the Public Appointments will remain the statutory committee of the Electoral Commissioner; recommendations for appointment will Commission and its staff will continue to be Electoral be based on recommendations from a panel of officials, Commission employees until the new body is established. including an independent person; and a process of advertisement and executive search will be followed. I will expand on the explanation that I gave in In addition, by providing the Secretary of State with a Committee. Clause 60 and Schedule 3 make transitional role, knowledge of the local government sector will be provision for the existing Boundary Committee to brought into the appointments process. exercise its function in relation to electoral boundary work, without the involvement of the Electoral The Electoral Commission has stated that these Commission, prior to the establishment of the new assurances have allayed its fears about the appointments Boundary Committee for England. Schedule 3 provides process for ordinary members. I hope, therefore, that for a transitional period, starting on the day that the the noble Lord’s fears can also be allayed and that he Act is passed and ending with the establishment of the will withdraw Amendment 106. new Boundary Committee for England, which we expect to happen on 1 April 2010. During the transitional 5.30 pm period, the procedure for implementing recommendations For the same reasons, it is not necessary for the made by the existing Boundary Committee for England deputy chair to be appointed following an address is modified so that it does not require the involvement from the House of Commons. I set out in Committee of the Electoral Commission. This ensures that the that it is essential that appointments to the new Boundary Electoral Commission ceases to play a role in electoral Committee are, and are perceived to be, politically boundary matters at the earliest opportunity. impartial, independent and unambiguously made on As I set out in Committee, the key recommendation merit. This clearly applies to the post of deputy chair. of the Committee on Standards in Public Life was Paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 provides for the Secretary that the Electoral Commission should concentrate on of State to designate one member of the Boundary its core functions, hence the removal of its role from Committee for England to be the deputy chair. The electoral boundary work. The Electoral Commission deputy chair must therefore be an ordinary member has stated that the process currently envisaged would and will have been appointed by the process that I involve a gradual separation, resulting, as the noble have just set out. Lord said, in increased uncertainty for both staff and On that basis, I have been able to address the stakeholders. The provisions in Schedule 3 are clear. concerns of the Electoral Commission, initially in They remove the Electoral Commission’s role and relation to the appointment of ordinary members. I replace it with the new parliamentary procedure. This see no good reason to remove the Secretary of State’s will involve work for the Boundary Committee in role in designating a member of the Boundary Committee preparing for the new procedure, but I cannot agree that to be a deputy chair. Indeed, as I indicated in Committee, there will be uncertainty about what the procedure is. we see nothing objectionable in the chair of the new The Electoral Commission has provided us with an body being appointed by the Secretary of State, so we indication of the recommendations that it expects to see no good reason for her not to be responsible for receive from the Boundary Committee in the next deciding which of the members that she has recommended 12 months. It has informed us that, based on the latest will be appointed deputy chair of the Boundary plans, it expects the committee to make final Committee. recommendations in the electoral reviews of Cornwall An appointments process that involves the Secretary in September, Northumberland in February, and Durham of State is at least as likely to deliver our aims of in March. Both the Electoral Commission and the appointments being politically impartial, independent Boundary Committee argue that, since they do not and made on merit as a process involving votes in expect to make any orders in this period, there is no another place. The Electoral Commission has stated need for this transitional provision. Clearly, that argument that the Speaker’s Committee should be responsible can be turned on its head. If they do not expect to for the recruitment of the deputy chair. The Speaker’s make any orders, why do the transitional arrangements Committee gave its broad support to the Bill following present any difficulty? Indeed, the transitional its introduction. However, it is meeting today to consider arrangements in the Bill provide clarity so that electoral its provisions in more detail. This will include what, if change orders can continue to be made in accordance any, role it should have in the appointment process. with the new procedures, if and when they are approved The Government will of course take into consideration by Parliament. We are yet to be convinced that we the views of the Speaker’s Committee, particularly in should, in effect, introduce an artificial moratorium those areas where the Bill provides it with a role. period where electoral change orders cannot be made. However, until the views of the Speaker’s Committee That is the key issue. 489 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 490

Were the transitional arrangements not in place, Schedule 1: Boundary Committee for England Parliament would have legislated for a new procedure that removed the role of the Electoral Commission, Amendments 106 to 108 not moved. yet the commission would continue to be able to make its orders. It is clearly a matter for the Electoral Clause 52: Review of electoral arrangements Commission to decide if and when it chooses to make electoral change orders until such time as a new process Amendments 109 to 114 not moved. is put in place. We continue to believe that it is right that, if and when Parliament approves the Bill, the new more accountable system should come into effect Clause 53: Requests for review of single-member straight away.This will give greater clarity and confidence elected areas to local councils. We are grateful to the Electoral Commission for Amendments 115 to 119 not moved. providing information on the level of work that is expected in this period. We also note the Electoral Clause 54: Review procedure Commission and Boundary Committee’s concerns. However, to date, we have seen no compelling arguments Amendments 120 to 124 not moved. for why the transitional arrangements that we have proposed would cause the Electoral Commission or the Boundary Committee any particular difficulties. Clause 55: Implementation of review recommendations Of course, they will have to develop new working practices to enable them to deal with Parliament instead Amendments 125 to 127 not moved. of the commission, but these are not insurmountable. Indeed, given the small number of ongoing electoral Clause 56: Transfer of functions relating to boundary reviews, they will be making the transition at a low change point in their work programme. Having said that, we will continue to discuss all of these matters with the Amendments 128 to 131 not moved. commission and the committee, but I hope the House will agree that, at this stage, Clause 60 and Schedule 3 should stand part of the Bill. Clause 58: Transfer schemes

Lord Tope: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister Amendments 132 to 135 not moved. for a very full reply. On the question of the name and the 40 amendments that apply to it, I understood the Clause 59: Continuity of functions Minister at least to express sympathy with the point that is being made and to give an undertaking to look Amendments 136 to 141 not moved. at it. Of course I understand that the Government must be sure that, if it is to be done, it is done properly and in all the right places. I hope very much that they Clause 60: Interim provision are able to do that in time for Third Reading so that when the Bill leaves this House we have at least achieved Amendment 142 not moved. a name change here, and do not have to go through the same process all over again in another place. I am Schedule 3: Electoral change in England: interim grateful for that. modifications of the Local Government Act 1992 I am also grateful for the explanation on the other points that I raised. They were points of concern Amendment 143 not moved. raised by the Electoral Commission itself. As the Bill progresses, I am sure that discussions between the department and the Electoral Commission will continue. Clause 64: Interpretation I hope that these concerns can either be allayed or met during the passage of the Bill. In the mean time, I beg Amendment 144 not moved. leave to withdraw the amendment. Clause 65: Local authority economic assessment Amendment 101 withdrawn. Amendment 145 The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes): My Lords, when we come to all the other amendments, to save Moved by Baroness Warsi reading out every single one, may I assume that the 145: Clause 65, page 48, line 1, leave out paragraph (b) noble Lord will not wish to move any of them? Baroness Warsi: My Lords, I will also speak to Lord Tope: My Lords, the Deputy Speaker may so Amendment 146. These amendments, which, I am assume. delighted to see, have been endorsed by the Minister, are designed to keep ownership of economic assessments Amendments 102 to 105 not moved. with the local authorities that conduct them. They get 491 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 492

[BARONESS WARSI] for other considerations prescribed or directed by the rid of the overbearing role of the Secretary of State, Secretary of State, and there may be other very relevant which would have allowed her to tell a local authority material. That is why our Amendment 153 inserts the to revise any aspect of an assessment that she did not words “or otherwise”. like. Quite why this should ever have seemed like a Rather than co-operation going only one way, with suitable idea is unclear. In Grand Committee my the district co-operating with the county, I propose in noble friend Lord Hanningfield made it clear that he Amendment 154 that both district and county should would be totally against the Secretary of State directing co-operate with each other. Amendment 155 would these assessments, because they should be conducted allow for an assessment made before the commencement to assess the economic needs of the local authority, of the section to fulfil the duty that the section will not the needs of the Secretary of State, which might be impose. The world did not start this year and will not very different. I am pleased that the noble Baroness start when the Bill is enacted and the relevant clause has taken our advice that these powers are not necessary comes into force. It seems very unnecessary for local and I welcome their removal from the Bill. I beg to authorities to have to repeat what they have already move. done when they can simply point to work which many of them are doing at the moment in assessing the Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, we have economic condition of their own areas. In our view, Amendments 147, 151, 152, 153, 153, 154 and 155 in having carried out the work, the duty should have this group. They follow those moved in Grand Committee, been fulfilled. to which my noble friend Lord Greaves and the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, spoke quite forcefully about 5.45 pm the position of non-unitary districts. We think that having a duty to undertake an economic assessment is Lord Patel of Bradford: My Lords, this group of unnecessary, like much of this Bill, but we were told amendments concerns the proposed local authority that, economic assessment duty. I shall address Amendments 145 and 146 first. The Minister has put “Such a duty would help local authorities and their partners to work more effectively, supported by a comprehensive and robust her name to the amendments, as the noble Baroness, economic evidence base”.—[Official Report, 9/2/09; col. GC 255.] Lady Warsi, said. It was confirmed that the powers are within local We have listened carefully to noble Lords’ concerns authorities’ current powers but that, that a Secretary of State power to direct an individual “we need to provide a consistent framework”.—[Official Report, local authority to revise its assessment would give the 9/2/09; col. GC 261.] Secretary of State undue control over how the assessments We were also told that there are clear advantages in are taken forward. The power of direction was only having one body in the lead. ever intended as a safeguard and, as we are confident As I said, the two noble Lords spoke forcefully that local authorities will wish to keep their assessments about the role of the districts. I shall not seek to repeat up to date, we are very keen to keep government at any length their description of the diversity of prescription to a minimum. For that reason, we are districts within quite close areas, the districts often happy to support these amendments. being the authorities with which the public identify. Amendment 147, tabled by the noble Baroness, Therefore, it seems to us that a district should be able, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, would if it wishes, to take advantage of the benefits that we allow a non-unitary district council to elect to be are told this clause will bring. Some economic policies placed under the duty, so that in two-tier areas both and plans will be very local, and I stress the voluntary the county council and district council would be under nature of my amendment, giving districts the option a duty to prepare an assessment for their respective to buy into the arrangements. areas. Amendment 151 is a consequential amendment. The Government’s response at the previous stage I understand the fear expressed by noble Lords that and the provision smack of an agenda for bigger district councils would have a peripheral role in the unitary authorities. As we have said before, there may preparation of local economic assessments in two-tier be things to commend a unitary system across the areas and that countywide assessments would fail to country but we should debate that on an open and take account of the important contribution that district clear basis. We on these Benches find this quite difficult, councils make to wider economic development. I assure coming at it all somewhat crabwise. noble Lords that we do not underestimate the vital Amendment 151 is consequential on the first role that districts play in supporting local economic amendment. We have tabled Amendments 152 and development and regeneration. Indeed, we fully intend 153 because Clause 65(6)(b) seems to us very narrow. county councils and district councils to work in It states that the county must have regard to the partnership in preparing their economic assessments. material produced under Section 13 of the 2004 Act. The Bill, in Clause 65(6), already requires the county As we have lost so much of our debating time this and district councils to work in partnership in the afternoon, I shall not find the flag and read Section 13. preparation of the countywide economic assessment. The reference to the Planning and Compulsory Purchase It includes a requirement on the county council to Act 2004 reminds us of the importance of the link consult and seek the participation of district councils between economic generation and planning for an within its area and to take account of the evidence area. Of course, the district is still responsible for gathered by the district council in the course of its role much planning by way of the local development as planning authority that may affect the development framework and development control. The Bill provides of the area. It also includes a requirement on the 493 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 494 district council to co-operate with the county. We do Amendments 152 and 153, also tabled by the noble not believe that the amendment would further strengthen Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord partnership working between the county and districts. Tope, would require a county council to have regard to any material produced by a district council, regardless The amendment would place a separate duty on the of whether it relates to the district’s planning functions. county council and the district to prepare an assessment. Amendment 154 would require the county council As noble Lords are aware, local authorities have general and district council to co-operate with each other. The powers to discharge their functions jointly. Thus, the Bill makes specific mention of material held by the county council and district councils electing to be district council in the discharge of the district council’s bound by this duty could decide to prepare a joint functions under Section 13 of the Planning and county assessment. Although, in the best case, districts Compulsory Purchase Act 2004, because the local and counties might choose to exercise their duties economic assessment is expected to inform the preparation jointly, nothing in the amended provisions would require of local development frameworks. In view of this, it is them to do so. Therefore, we cannot discount the important that there is consistency between the evidence possibility that a district council would want to produce assembled at a district council level in preparation of its own assessment rather than work with the county. the local development framework and the evidence In such a scenario, the district’s assessment would gathered for the local economic assessment duty. We have the same statutory status as the countywide should also not lose sight of the fact that the material assessment, which could lead to unnecessary duplication collated under Section 13 is wide-ranging and is not of effort. It could also mean that regional partners restricted to economic data, as I think the noble would be presented with two potentially conflicting Baroness mentioned. Section 13 requires local planning assessments for the same area in preparing the regional authorities to keep under review any matters that may strategy. Furthermore, if a district council was to go it affect the development of their area. This would include, alone, Amendment 151 would result in there being no among other things, principal physical, economic, social requirement for the county to consult it and seek its and environmental characteristics of the area. participation in preparing the countywide assessment. Many district council functions relate to economic As I explained in Committee, we believe that it is development and regeneration. Both district councils important that assessments should reflect the local and counties contribute in different ways in supporting economic geography as much as possible. We do not economic development, often working in partnership. dispute that district councils have a key role to play in For instance, both tiers work together alongside other economic development and regeneration. However, partners in tackling skills challenges. There is a range economic linkages or economies do not stop at district of evidence that local authorities can draw from in council boundaries; the solutions to local economic developing local economic assessments, some of which problems can often lie in the wider economy. For is held by districts, some by counties and some elsewhere. example, skills shortages and shortcomings in connectivity Local authorities should also, where appropriate, draw often require a county or sub-regional response. Counties on the evidence assembled in developing other key provide a better match for real economic markets and strategies such as local housing strategies, which are are better placed to build a broad strategic understanding assembled by districts, and local transport plans, which of the drivers of the wider economic area. For these are assembled by counties, in putting together their reasons, we believe that it is better to prepare the economic assessments. It is important, therefore, that assessment at a county level. county and districts work together with other partners in agreeing the range of evidence needed to assemble Therefore, we believe that the best way to take the local economic assessment, aggregating it and forward local economic assessments is to place the disaggregating it where necessary so that it both informs duty on county councils but with a clear requirement local priorities and gives a broad strategic picture that for the county to work with the districts. Counties are can properly inform the regional strategy. Our intention particularly well placed to lead on economic assessments, is to address these issues clearly in future guidance. We as they have a strategic overview of the economic, do not, therefore, believe that there should be an social and environmental well-being of the county as a open-ended requirement on the county council to whole. They are already the responsible authority for have regard to any material that the district council preparing the local area agreement in two-tier areas decides to provide. However, there needs to be a and they tend to be better resourced for this type of genuine dialogue between the county and districts. We work than district councils. We consider that the Bill, believe that the Bill as drafted will help to achieve that. as drafted, requires both the county and district councils to work in partnership in preparing the local economic Amendment 154 would place a requirement on assessments and that it provides district councils with both the county council and district council to co-operate a specific role in recognition of their important with each other in the preparation of a local economic contribution to the assessment. Such an approach is assessment. We do not believe that this amendment is simple and transparent, provides clear lines of necessary because, as I have explained, the Bill already accountability and will, it is hoped, lead to high-quality, includes a requirement on the county council to consult consistent assessments. We believe that it strikes the and seek the participation of district councils and the right balance between ensuring that district councils district councils to co-operate with the county councils. are fully involved and the need to have clear lines of It is implicit within such a requirement that the county accountability. I hope that I have addressed the noble council should work closely and co-operate with district Baroness’s concerns and that she will understand why councils within its area. I can assure noble Lords that I think that the amendment is not necessary. we will emphasise the need for co-operation in guidance. 495 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 496

[LORD PATEL OF BRADFORD] them to think creatively when consulting, rather than Amendment 155, tabled by the noble Baroness, adopting a mechanical approach and thinking, “We’ve Lady Hamwee, would provide for an assessment prepared have done our bit”. The list of partner authorities in prior to these provisions coming into force to be able Clause 66 is no doubt exhaustive and complete, or so to fulfil a local authority’s statutory duties in relation the Government suggest, but that list may change. The to Part 4 of the Bill. Noble Lords are understandably Secretary of State may have to keep laying down keen to ensure that existing work done by local authorities orders to update the list to keep it exhaustive and in developing an economic evidence base is not lost. complete. I suggest to the Minister that this Bill could We completely agree that local authorities should, be improved with the removal of Clause 66. I beg to wherever possible, build on existing work in preparing move. their new assessment. The important point is that the assessments be fit for purpose and give an accurate and up-to-date assessment of local economic conditions. Lord Patel of Bradford: My Lords, the noble Baroness, As the policy statement on local economic assessments, Lady Warsi, and the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, which was placed on the Communities and Local have tabled Amendment 148, which would remove the Government website in January, makes clear, a local requirement for local authorities to consult named authority that has already carried out an assessment partner authorities in preparing their local economic will need to consider it in the context of the new duty assessment. Amendment 149 is a consequential and any government guidance. While such local authorities amendment, while Amendment 157 would remove may need to make some changes and will certainly Clause 66, which lists those partner authorities. need to ensure that they meet their new statutory We discussed these provisions at some length in obligation to consult, we do not intend that the work Committee. We explained that we have included these that they have already done should go to waste. I hope provisions in the Bill because we believe that there are that noble Lords will, therefore, understand why we partners that local authorities should be required to believe that these amendments are not necessary. consult in carrying out their assessments. The authorities that are listed are already working closely with local Amendment 145 agreed. authorities in local strategic partnerships. We believe that it is important that these partners should be given the opportunity to engage with the principal local Amendment 146 authorities in assessing the economic conditions of the area. The list of partner authorities takes as its Moved by Lord Patel of Bradford starting point the list of partner authorities which are 146: Clause 65, page 48, line 3, leave out subsection (3) set out in Part 5 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 for the purpose of Amendment 146 agreed. agreeing local area agreements and which responsible authorities must consult when developing their sustainable Amendment 147 not moved. community strategies. We have taken this approach because local economic assessments are expected to form part of the evidence Amendment 148 base for the sustainable community strategy and for Moved by Baroness Warsi the local area agreement negotiations. All the partners listed have a duty to co-operate with local authorities 148: Clause 65, page 48, line 13, leave out paragraph (a) in determining local area agreement targets and must have regard to these targets in the exercise of their Baroness Warsi: My Lords, in moving the amendment functions. In view of this, we believe that it is only fair I shall speak also to Amendments 149 and 157. I that these partner authorities should have an opportunity return to the simple point: we agree with the principle to contribute to the local economic assessment. Involving of conducting assessments. We agree that when a local these partners at an early stage in identifying the authority is conducting an economic assessment of its economic strengths and weaknesses of the local economy area it is right that relevant bodies and persons should will help to strengthen the impact and effectiveness of be consulted. Where we disagree is on the need to spell targets agreed through local area agreements further out in such great detail which those partner bodies down the line. Also, we should not lose sight of the must be. This has been a recurring theme throughout fact that local economic assessments will inform the the Bill. The Government have gone into prescriptive preparation of the regional strategy. It is important overdrive and at every stage we have suggested a more that the regional strategy should be informed by the flexible approach. This is another such situation. Our best possible advice and knowledge. Many of the amendments would leave in the duty to consult but partner authorities listed in Clause 66 will play an leave it up to the local authority to choose who the important part in that process as well. consultees will be. However, as I explained, our intention has been to One of the concerns that I have with putting lists ensure that local authorities at the very least consult into the Bill is that it may encourage a tick-box mentality, those public bodies that are working closely with local whereby a local authority may simply go through the authorities in determining local area agreement targets list in the Bill but may not go any further. By placing and delivering them. We are keen to keep prescription the onus on local authorities, we will encourage them to a minimum and to allow space for local flexibility. to consider every possible body that they should consult. In Committee, we heard the arguments put forward by We would therefore free up local authorities and allow the noble Baroness and the noble Lord against the 497 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 498 inclusion of partner authorities. I undertake to table The Government can impress on banks and on appropriate amendments at Third Reading to deal lenders that that is the position. The concern expressed with those concerns. With that reassurance, I am sure was the difficulty in which individual companies are that the noble Baroness will be happy to withdraw the being left because lenders are taking the view that they amendment. are either insolvent or in such a precarious position that one must not lend to them. In saying that, I am Baroness Warsi: My Lords, I am delighted to hear not in any way trying to diminish the seriousness of what the Minister has said. It has taken me a little by the position and the problems faced by some companies. surprise. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the We own a large part of the banks so we should always amendment. use opportunities to persuade them to act in a civilised Amendment 148 withdrawn. manner. That is a specific point which the Government could take up. Amendment 149 not moved. 6pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government Amendment 150 (Baroness Andrews): My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Moved by Earl Attlee Attlee, was absolutely right: we had a very good debate last Wednesday and we put many things on the 150: Clause 65, page 48, line 14, at end insert— record. I am happy to reiterate our concern today, “( ) When conducting an assessment under this Part, a principal without going into any detail, about the predicament local authority must consider the impact on the economic well-being of the authority’s area, including where applicable the effect on of some businesses faced with unexpectedly large ports, caused by non-domestic rating revaluations.” backdated bills. I went into some detail about the history of that and why it was such an unfortunate Earl Attlee: My Lords, on behalf of my noble occurrence, coinciding with the downturn and so on. friend Lord Bates, I beg to move the amendment I recognise the anxiety in the House and I recognise standing in his name. Your Lordships debated this that the non-fatal Motion was lost by the Government. matter last week. It concerns retrospective non-domestic I put the same Statement into Hansard today, recognising rating of ports. We had an excellent debate. I expressed and respecting the response of the House but reiterating, my extreme concerns regarding the current situation. as I said in the debate, that we had gone as far as we The noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, gave a very careful could within the limits of the law because we could and detailed explanation of the problem and why the not waive tax liability—no Minister could. I am grateful Government believe that nothing more can be done to to the noble Earl for not rehearsing that today. Facts improve the situation. The House then divided and concerning tax liabilities that are now known cannot voted to accept my Motion to regret that the regulations simply be disregarded, as he will understand, and of would not prevent several port companies from becoming course port occupiers are not alone in having backdated insolvent. The underlying SI was approved as it actually liabilities as a result of ensuring that the ratings list is improves the situation, but in my view not enough. accurate and up-to-date. Today, the Minister in another place, John Healey, We know that some businesses may struggle with made a Written Statement to the effect that the significant and unexpected bills for more than 33 months Government will ignore your Lordships’ determination from 1 April 2005 and that is why we have come and leave the way open for councils to issue rate forward with the new regulations which give businesses demands forthwith. Your Lordships will recall that more time to pay those liabilities in certain circumstances. local authorities are bound to collect the rates due Under those regulations, businesses facing such bills diligently. My question for the Minister is: what happens will not be required to pay their backdated liability next? Exactly when will local authorities issue rate within the current financial year. Instead, the new demands and when will the amounts first due have to legislation will give qualifying businesses the facility to be paid? I beg to move. pay their back-dated liability for previous years in Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I was unable to be in equal interest-free instalments over eight years. As I the House on Wednesday when the noble Earl moved told the House last week, that is absolutely unprecedented his Motion, but I read the debate with interest. Clearly, and it has been welcomed. We think it will help about this Bill cannot stop the orders; that is not within the 1,500 properties a year across England, within and scope of the Bill. However, there is something, which I outside ports, and will give help with cash flow problems take from the debate, which the Government could do. faced by some companies. I was glad to see that the Minister’s response answered On the specific question posed by the noble Earl, the point about trading while insolvent. Given that the my advice is that bills can be sent out any time now. rates due in the future are a future liability, she talked Local authorities will have to issue demands and bills about, now because there is no reason not to bill and payment “the directors’ reasonable expectations of being able to meet their of bills is due 14 days from the issue of the due bill. liabilities as they fall due in the future”.—[Official Report, 18/3/09; The schedule of payments, as agreed with the local col. 304.] authorities, would be eight equal instalments, if a She said that they are not in such an extreme position company falls into that situation. That is what will as seems to have been suggested in some quarters. I happen. was glad she said that because it confirmed what I had The point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, understood to be the case although my professional is pertinent. I was happy to put on the record the experience of this is by no means recent. situation about insolvency, as it is important information, 499 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 500

[BARONESS ANDREWS] make a very important statement that is not currently so that people would not feel that immediately they in the Bill. I tabled an amendment, framed a little receive those bills on their balance sheets they will be differently, in Grand Committee. It required local bound to be declared insolvent. The point made by the authorities to have regard to social and environmental noble Baroness about making it clear to the banks and issues alongside economic ones. It provoked the comment to the lenders that that is the position is very important. from the Government that my amendment would I said in the debate that we would look for ways to “unnecessarily constrain” local authorities. If the ensure that that information was held by local authorities assurances about the importance of all three pillars of and that we will seek to put it on websites and so on. well-being—economic, social and environmental—mean Bearing in mind what she said, let me think about how anything, I do not understand how my amendment we can ensure that that information goes to the lenders would constrain local authorities. The phrase makes as well. The debate on the issue has raised considerable me fear that the assurances are not as I would like to public interest and a letter sent from both Stephen understand them. Timms and John Healey to the Treasury Select Committee The Government relied in Grand Committee on received a fair degree of publicity. Nevertheless, we guidance that we have yet to see and referred to the should ensure that we make as much of it is possible. policy statement that we have seen. I acknowledge that I must address the amendment before us. Obviously the policy statement covers wider ground than the we do not think that the specific amendment in this narrowly economic. It mentions, for instance—just to context would be appropriate. We do not agree that show that I have looked at it—the transition to a matters that should be addressed in local economic low-carbon economy and the causes of worklessness. assessments should be placed on the face of the Bill However, that is in a policy statement; it will not be in because it is up to local areas to determine what is statute. relevant in terms of their economic assessment and If this or any future Government become even how it is best deployed. It would also unnecessarily more panicky about the economy, there will be no constrain local authorities and make it more difficult statutory backing for the balance. We on these Benches to respond to changing economic priorities. Local believe that it is necessary to consider all three aspects authorities should be free to determine what to include at the same time: they all support one another. The in their assessments, taking account of local priorities. social and environmental well-being of an area in I am grateful for the opportunity to reaffirm what I itself supports the economy of that area. I beg to said and to add further information about port businesses move. that are affected by the situation described on Wednesday in the debate on the Motion. 6.15 pm

Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am extremely grateful for Lord Patel of Bradford: My Lords, unfortunately it the Minister’s reply. I do think that we are heading for is my third sentence that says that the amendment is disaster, but it is helpful that the Minister has told the unnecessary. I will try to reassure the noble Baroness, House that rate demands will be issued probably in the who has raised some important points. She mentioned next two weeks. Matters will then come to a head, and the policy statement and her concerns about ensuring the clarity for businesses will be helpful because they that social and environmental well-being is not left off have been in limbo for some time. We will see what the agenda. The fact that I am reassuring her in the happens next. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw House will, I hope, add strength to the argument that the amendment. this amendment is unnecessary. Amendment 156 would insert the provision that the Amendment 150 withdrawn. duty to prepare an assessment of the economic conditions of an area shall not affect the powers and duties of a Amendments 151 to 155 not moved. principal local authority in relation to the social or environmental well-being of the area. I assure noble Lords that nothing in Clause 65 would have an effect Amendment 156 on any local authority’s powers or duties relating to Moved by Baroness Hamwee social and environmental well-being. I understand that noble Lords are concerned that the new duty 156: Clause 65, page 48, line 36, at end insert— would give too great a prominence to economic issues “( ) Nothing in this section shall affect the powers or duties of at the expense of social and environmental matters. a principal local authority in relation to the social or envionmental However, this is not the case. well-being of its area.” As the noble Baroness said, we set out in our policy statement that we believe that local economic assessments Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, Amendment 156 is will contribute to the overall aim of delivering sustainable an amendment to Clause 65, which concerns local economic development. A primary function of the authority economic assessments. My amendment would economic assessment is to inform the preparation of provide that the new clause shall in no way affect a the sustainable community strategy, which sets out local authority’s powers or duties in relation to the the long-term vision for the economic, social and social or environmental well-being of its area. environmental well-being of an area. The local economic The Government will say that the amendment is assessment, however, will form only part of the evidence unnecessary. The Minister grins at that: perhaps it is base for the sustainable community strategy.In preparing his first line. However, the amended clause would the strategy, local authorities will need to weigh the 501 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 502 findings from the local economic assessment alongside Clement-Jones, L. Mawson, L. all other factors that must be considered, including the Colwyn, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. need to promote social and environmental well-being. Cope of Berkeley, L. Methuen, L. Cotter, L. Morris of Bolton, B. We do not expect economic assessments to be prepared Courtown, E. Neuberger, B. without any reference to wider social and environmental Denham, L. Noakes, B. concerns. Some of the main barriers to economic Dholakia, L. Northesk, E. success are social issues such as lack of skills and poor Dixon-Smith, L. Northover, B. D’Souza, B. O’Cathain, B. health. Economic conditions in turn may have social Dykes, L. Onslow, E. consequences. We know that worklessness is often Eccles of Moulton, B. Pearson of Rannoch, L. linked to worsening social outcomes such as increased Elton, L. Falkland, V. Razzall, L. crime. At the same time, it is obvious that economic Redesdale, L. development has potential environmental consequences, Falkner of Margravine, B. Fearn, L. Rennard, L. and all areas need to think about how well placed they Fowler, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. are for moving towards a low-carbon economy. The Freeman, L. Rogan, L. noble Baroness was right: we will address all this in Garden of Frognal, B. Rotherwick, L. government guidance. Gardner of Parkes, B. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Garel-Jones, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. In determining the long-term vision for the places Geddes, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. that they serve, local authorities will need to bring Glasgow, E. Seccombe, B. together all the relevant issues in the sustainable Glentoran, L. Selborne, E. community strategy. The economic assessment duty Goodhart, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] means that local authorities will have a good Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Skelmersdale, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Smith of Clifton, L. understanding of local economic circumstances, based Hamwee, B. Steel of Aikwood, L. on sound evidence. However, it is not the case that this Hanningfield, L. Steinberg, L. evidence somehow trumps other considerations: it will Harris of Richmond, B. Stern, B. be for local authorities to bring together all the evidence Henley, L. Stewartby, L. on economic, environmental and social issues, and Hooper, B. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Howe, E. Strathclyde, L. balance the different considerations. The economic Howe of Aberavon, L. Teverson, L. assessment duty will ensure that local authorities have Howe of Idlicote, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. a good understanding of the economy of the local Hylton, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. area. There is no provision for these assessments to Jopling, L. Tonge, B. change existing local authority powers or duties on Kingsland, L. Tope, L. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Tordoff, L. social or environmental matters. I hope that these Knight of Collingtree, B. Trenchard, V. reassurances will enable the noble Baroness to withdraw Lee of Trafford, L. Ullswater, V. her amendment. Lindsay, E. Vallance of Tummel, L. Livsey of Talgarth, L. Verma, B. Lyell, L. Waddington, L. Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I thought that the Maclennan of Rogart, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. first part of the Minister’s speech was very much McNally, L. Wakeham, L. better than mine at making the same points. However, Maddock, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. I did not agree with his conclusion. We have sustainable Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Walmsley, B. community strategy duties, so why is it necessary to Mar and Kellie, E. Walpole, L. Marlesford, L. Walton of Detchant, L. have the new economic assessment duty? The imbalance Masham of Ilton, B. Warsi, B. worries me. As the Minister said, the three aspects are interwoven. I should like to see something about this in the Bill. I should like to test the opinion of the NOT CONTENTS House. Acton, L. Corbett of Castle Vale, L. Adonis, L. Crawley, B. Andrews, B. Davies of Abersoch, L. 6.19 pm Archer of Sandwell, L. Davies of Coity, L. Bach, L. Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller] Division on Amendment 156 Bassam of Brighton, L. Desai, L. [Teller] Dixon, L. Contents 115; Not-Contents 129. Berkeley, L. Dubs, L. Bernstein of Craigweil, L. Elder, L. Billingham, B. Elystan-Morgan, L. Amendment 156 disagreed. Bilston, L. Evans of Parkside, L. Blackstone, B. Falconer of Thoroton, L. Division No. 1 Blood, B. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Borrie, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. CONTENTS Bradley, L. Ford, B. Brennan, L. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Addington, L. [Teller] Bowness, L. Brett, L. Gale, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. Bradshaw, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Attlee, E. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Brookman, L. Golding, B. Baker of Dorking, L. L. Campbell-Savours, L. Goudie, B. Best, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Carter of Coles, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Bew, L. Caithness, E. Chandos, V. Graham of Edmonton, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Carnegy of Lour, B. Chorley, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. B. Chester, Bp. Clarke of Hampstead, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Bottomley of Nettlestone, B. Chidgey, L. Clinton-Davis, L. Hart of Chilton, L. 503 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 504

Haskel, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. I hope that the Minister will agree that these Haworth, L. Patel of Bradford, L. amendments would strengthen the role of the local Henig, B. Pendry, L. authorities in the process, which is something that we Hilton of Eggardon, B. Pitkeathley, B. will return to with future amendments. This seems an Hollick, L. Plant of Highfield, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Puttnam, L. entirely logical step. The Minister agreed with some of Howarth of Newport, L. Quin, B. our earlier comments and I hope that she can agree Howells of St. Davids, B. Radice, L. with these as well, because they involve local authorities Howie of Troon, L. Rea, L. in the whole process. In Committee, the noble Lord, Hoyle, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Hughes of Woodside, L. Lord Patel, talked about, Rooker, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. “considerable opportunities for local authorities to play a stronger Jay of Paddington, B. Rosser, L. role in economic development and regeneration. … As local Jones, L. Rowlands, L. place-shapers, authorities are well placed to lead and facilitate the Jones of Whitchurch, B. Royall of Blaisdon, B. delivery of economic growth and regeneration”.—[Official Report, Jordan, L. Sawyer, L. 9/2/09; col. GC 255] Judd, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. These amendments present that opportunity and would King of West Bromwich, L. Sewel, L. provide a clear picture across the region. As I have Kingsmill, B. Sheldon, L. Kirkhill, L. Simon, V. said before, there can be a real problem of differences Layard, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. across large regions. In my county of Essex, for example, Levy, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. there are enormous differences between Clacton on Lipsey, L. Smith of Leigh, L. the coast and parts that border London. I beg to Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. Snape, L. move. McDonagh, B. Soley, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Baroness Andrews: My Lords, I understand why the McIntosh of Haringey, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Taylor of Bolton, B. noble Lord has tabled these amendments again. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Thornton, B. Lord Judd: My Lords, I was going to speak to my L. Tunnicliffe, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Uddin, B. amendments. Maxton, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. Meacher, B. Warner, L. Baroness Andrews: My Lords, I beg the noble Lord’s Mitchell, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. pardon. Morgan, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. West of Spithead, L. Lord Judd: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble Morris of Aberavon, L. Whitaker, B. friend. I should remind the House that I am honorary Morris of Handsworth, L. Whitty, L. president of the Friends of the Lake District, which Morris of Manchester, L. Wilkins, B. represents CPRE in the whole of Cumbria, and honorary Morris of Yardley, B. Woolmer of Leeds, L. vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks. I O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. am going to speak to Amendment 160. Clause 66: Partner authorities Earl Attlee: My Lords, we are speaking to Amendment 157A. Amendment 157 not moved. Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, Amendment 160 is part of the next grouping. Clause 67: Regional strategy The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes): My Lords, the amendment under discussion is Amendment 157A. Amendment 157A Baroness Andrews: My Lords, I am quite clear Moved by Lord Hanningfield about that but it is always nice to hear from my noble friend. I look forward to the next group of amendments. 157A: Clause 67, page 50, line 7, at end insert “to be established As I was saying, it is understandable why the noble by the responsible regional authorities as specified in section 69” Lord has brought back these amendments on the preparation of regional strategies and the relationship Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, the purpose of this of local authority economic assessments to regional group of amendments is to make sure, as the Government strategies. I know that he is concerned that we should have said, that the whole thing is more bottom-up demonstrate how much this is an organic and bottom-up than top-down. Amendment 157A would make sure process. that the Secretary of State is not the ultimate power On Amendment 157A, we debated the notion of in all this and does not have the ultimate say. the regional strategy being established by the responsible Amendment 157E goes back to the point that I made regional authorities in Committee. There will be a in Committee, which was that the economic assessments touch of déjà vu, because I raised concerns then which should form the main part of the evidence base for the I still hold. The problem with the word “establish” is regional authority in drawing up the regional strategy. that, rather than helping the cause of the noble Lord, For all the glowing comments that we had earlier from it adds to the confusion. I will address the issue of who the noble Lord, Lord Patel, about the way in which publishes the regional strategy in my response to the district councils and counties were going to have a next group of amendments, but this amendment simply great say in the economic assessments, we want to confuses the nature of what is involved in the process. make certain that the assessments are the base of any We have made it clear in Clauses 69 and 70 that the regional strategy. responsible regional authorities would prepare the 505 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 506 regional strategies. That is quite right because, as the (1B) The authorities to be consulted for the purposes of noble Lord says, it is not the Secretary of State’s job to subsection (1A) are— do this; it is very much in the hands of the joint (a) a county council, authorities. I am happy to put on the record again that (b) a district council, other than a non-unitary district the Bill establishes what I believe will be a genuinely council, equal partnership between the RDAs and the local (c) a National Park Authority, authorities with a genuinely collaborative approach in (d) the Broads Authority. the drafting of strategies to achieve the regional objectives. (1C) The authority must give advice to the responsible regional I am happy to reassure the House again about that. authorities, including advice relating to the inclusion in the regional The noble Lord is right that local economic assessments strategy of specific policies relating to any part of the region. have to be the fundamental bodies of evidence for the (1D) Where an authority under this section is a county council regional strategy. Amendment 157E would make it for an area for which there is a district council, the county council explicit that new integrated regional strategies must must consult the district council in relation to the discharge by the county council of its duties under this section.” take account of local economic assessments. I am sorry to disappoint him but I do not think that it is appropriate to go into that degree of prescription in Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, this group covers a the Bill. As we said in the policy document that we wide range of amendments. My Amendment 157B is a published alongside the Bill, we expect the local economic Local Government Association amendment as well. assessments to form a key part of the evidence base, Some of these issues were discussed in relation to the which is why we have debated them at such length and 2004 Planning Act, when the Government accepted put so much emphasis on the quality and consistency the will of this House. As I said, it is vital that the of that evidence base. They will inform the preparation planning process for regional strategies should be of regional strategies. bottom-up. Otherwise, one is going to get resistance We also said in our policy statement that local rather than acceptance for building houses. You have economic assessments will form part of the evidence the district doing local development frameworks and base for the examination in public of the draft regional the counties above that with the highway powers, strategy. That is where they will be challenged and waste and mineral powers and all the social powers. scrutinised by people from many different disciplines That is a coherent policy, which is tied to the economic, and experiences, which is an important iterative part environmental and social strategies that we talked of the process. We have said that we will set out more about in relation to the amendments tabled by the details about how the assessments should feed into the Liberal Democrats. It is important that all this should regional strategy in future guidance, when we will have tie together and then go up to create the regional an opportunity to explore and emphasise their significance strategy. and to go into some of the issues that local authorities The Government suggest that leaders’ boards working would find helpful. I hope that that provides sufficient with the RDAs might be the answer. I fear that it will assurance for the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. not be if you really want to achieve success, develop the economy, build houses and provide a satisfying solution, given that, as I have just said, a vast amount Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I thank the Minister of the country is covered by two tiers—it is very rural for her answer. We are going to discuss this again in with a series of large towns in it. I have been involved the next group of amendments and I am sure that we in this process for a long while. I want to see agreement will be pursuing this theme for a while. We all want to on the building of houses and development, but it achieve something and make certain that we can build works much better from the bottom up than it does houses in and benefit the economy of our areas. I from the top down. think that the Government often come from an urban The amendment sets out a number of bodies that perspective, considering groups of authorities that can should be part of creating the regional strategy; it easily relate together, such as in London, Manchester, should not be only the leaders’ board. Obviously the Birmingham or Liverpool. However, most of the country RDA and the leaders’ board will decide ultimately, but is still divided into counties. Some of them are now the process should be bottom-up, with lots of people unitaries; a lot of them still have districts with small or participating and being involved; if it is not, it will not fairly large towns but not many cities. Getting coherent work. I think that everyone agrees that the Planning strategies on building houses and development is very and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 has not worked different in those areas from the situation in London terribly well in giving planning powers to the regional or Manchester. I will withdraw the amendment now assemblies, otherwise we would not now be giving but we will come back to this issue in the next group. them to the RDAs; the Government have admitted that by proposing something different two or three Amendment 157A withdrawn. years later. The Government should acknowledge that the process should be much more bottom-up and that these various bodies should be consulted and involved Amendment 157B in the construction of the regional strategy. I beg to Moved by Lord Hanningfield move. 157B: Clause 67, page 50, line 7, at end insert— “(1A) In undertaking their duties under subsection (1), the Lord Judd: My Lords, I apologise for having jumped responsible regional authorities must seek the advice of each the gun a moment ago, but all these amendments authority whose area falls wholly or partly within the region. cover much the same territory. The noble Lord, Lord 507 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 508

[LORD JUDD] to engage with regional partners. What is proposed Hanningfield, moved his amendment very well. While represents a significant weakening of the current I take second place to no one in my support for the arrangements. Government in wanting to get planning streamlined As we all know, the NPAs are not party political, and to be able to get ahead with it and so on, it will not yet they provide significant benefits for the nation. work unless people have been properly consulted. It This means that they need the support of central will run into all kinds of problems if people feel that government to ensure that their needs are met when they have been bypassed. new regional arrangements are being established, which I shall speak to Amendments 160, 164, 165 and 168 itself has been a highly political process. Under the and, in doing so, I should remind the House that I am Bill as proposed, national park purposes would probably president of the Friends of the Lake District and a be undermined. If NPAs are not represented on leaders’ vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks. I boards, the interests of national parks are unlikely to shall speak for a little longer than noble Lords have be addressed and the delivery of the national park been speaking so far today, but that is because I shall purposes would be undermined. For example, the be speaking to all four amendments. On aggregate my NPAs take seriously the need for affordable housing time will not exceed four minutes per amendment. for local communities, but under the Bill decisions We all realise that leaders’ boards will be very over housing numbers, locations and other infrastructure, important bodies. They will be responsible for the which will have a direct bearing on national parks, development and sign-off of the regional strategies. could very well undermine or erode the special quality The regional strategy under planning law, once approved, of those parks. The NPAs are at pains to balance both becomes part of the development plan covering the considerations in meeting the social need for housing. national parks and other areas. Amendment 160 seeks NPAs are facing considerable development pressures to ensure that each leaders’ board has on it representation on their doorsteps and will do so more in future. This from each type of authority. There are good reasons demands that national park purposes are always reflected for ensuring that all types of authority are represented, in the decisions that ultimately affect them. Where but I shall focus on the area that I know best—the development policies are accepted as essential for the national park authorities. regional strategy but they erode the national park special qualities, it is necessary to have an informed The critical question is whether the arrangements representative on the leaders’ board who can propose will provide adequate representation. There are strong counterbalancing or mitigating policies. grounds for believing that they will not. The statutory purposes and functions of national park authorities, As the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, argued, as set out in Parliament, are unique. Arrangements better planning requires less ministerial intervention. therefore need to reflect the “national” in national Without better planning arrangements, ultimately there parks. I am well aware of much of the work that the will be more ministerial intervention. Ensuring that all national park authorities are doing to support local parties are involved at an early stage in planning to communities, as they take it very seriously, but we iron out potential conflicts of policy will help to should not forget that national parks are just that— reduce the need for ministerial intervention. As I national—and that local authorities are responsible understand it, that is exactly what the Government for their areas and local communities. want, but this requires bodies to be involved from the earliest stages. This significant difference needs to be recognised in I was heartened by my noble friend’s comments in the institutional arrangements. It may well be possible Committee when she said: for district councils within a region to come together and establish a form of representation, but it would “The National Park authorities are participating authorities responsible for drawing up the scheme for the leaders’ board. We not be possible for local authorities to represent the said in the policy document that they can but do not have to be on interests of national parks, because the functions, the board, but they must be part of the board’s membership and purposes and audiences are different. Planning is the its operation and they would be consulted on the draft strategy key to delivering national park purposes, and Parliament and Clause 72(3), to be provided in regulations. Again, I am has decreed that national park authorities must have happy to write to the National Parks Authority, setting that out spatial planning powers. Indeed, spatial planning is a and ensuring that everyone is clear about that, because it is such a crucial tool in delivering national park purposes for critical partner in this”.—[Official Report, 24/2/09; col. GC 63]. the nation. The new regional strategies will be pivotal Surely if it is my noble friend’s sentiment that they to the region—indeed, they will form part of the must be part of the board’s membership, that needs to development plans of the national parks—and yet if a be reflected in the Bill. region wishes to exclude a national park authority In 1995, Parliament gave the national park authorities from the leaders’ board, with the effect that it does not independence under the Environment Act. This was in sign off the regional strategy, it is perfectly entitled to recognition that an arrangement whereby the national do so under this legislation. park authority, with national purposes, was effectively a sub-committee of a local authority was not appropriate. However, this Bill, if not amended, could lead to 6.45 pm national park authorities having to look to local authorities The new arrangements would weaken the existing to represent them; they would lose the independence approach. The national park authorities are named we entrusted to them. authorities under Section 4(4) of the Planning and My noble friend may point to the participating Compulsory Purchase Act 2004. For this reason, NPAs authority status which national park authorities are have a seat on regional assemblies, which enables them said to enjoy. While this is a fluid process, my 509 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 510 understanding has generally been that national park advice is very different from a duty to consult. The authorities have needed to bang on the door to be let latter is much weaker. The Government have published into discussions, rather than being invited genuinely to the policy document on regional strategies. This document participate. In any case, the participating authority advocates an inclusive approach. The repeal of Section 4(4) status will mean very little after the Secretary of State would represent a weakening of the current statutory has approved the scheme for a leaders’ board in each framework. I have been privy to correspondence which region. It is a temporary status in this respect. my noble friend sent to the director of the English National Parks Authorities Association, Paul Hamlyn, The national parks cover many administrative last October. In that letter she says: boundaries within a region. This enables them to take a wider perspective, which is helpful in addressing “Finally, with regard to the preparation of the regional spatial strategies, I can confirm that National Park Authorities retain strategic planning issues such as climate change. It their role under Section 4(4) of the Planning and Compulsory also means that it would prove extremely difficult for Purchase Act 2004”. the interests of the national parks to be adequately The proposal to repeal the entire section seems contrary represented by the local authorities sitting on the to that statement. leaders’ boards. In addition to ensuring that the interests Finally, I suggest that the Government may be of national parks are addressed, national park authorities worried that what I am arguing is adding to the statute can bring significant beneficial expertise to the table; book: it is not. The amendment will simply ensure that for example, regarding rural areas and sustainable existing duties, which Parliament has already approved, development. This year is the 60th anniversary of the are maintained. If my noble friend is still concerned visionary National Parks and Access to the Countryside on this point, there is always Amendment 168, which Act 1949. It would be sad if 2009 marked a weakening is a simple formulation to achieve the same outcome. of the special role of the parks. On Amendment 165, the Bill includes provisions On Amendment 164, the ground covered by this for a plan for implementing the regional strategy— amendment was first discussed in Committee, when it Clause 77(1). The proposal to strengthen the link was examined by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, between the spatial strategy and decisions over resource and the noble Lord, Lord Tope. This issue has attracted allocation is helpful. This lack of linkage has been a cross-party interest. It is also regarded as important problem in the past for regional spatial strategies. The by the CPRE and by the County Councils Network. implementation plan will be a key document within The Local Government Association has also expressed the region in setting detailed priorities, public investment concerns. My noble friend’s response on day seven of decisions and for creating strategic partnerships. The Committee was that NPAs and the boards would be Bill contains no provisions for consultation on the involved by virtue of being named participating implementation plan. The Government are on record authorities. This status means that the NPAs should as saying in paragraph 2.37 of Prosperous Places: be involved in agreeing a scheme for leaders’ boards. It Taking Forward the Review of Subnational Economic does not mean, however, that the regional planning Development Regeneration, published in November board needs to seek the advice of a national park 2008: authority in preparing a regional strategy, as is the “The Government is committed to stakeholder engagement as case now. a fundamental feature of the processes for developing and”— I underline this— My noble friend said in Committee that she would “delivering the regional strategy and there will be a duty on the write to the national park authorities on this point. RDA and Leaders’ Board to consult and engage stakeholders”. Whatever the correspondence which has or has not The Government’s principle is to apply to both taken place, surely it would be better to have the Bill developing the strategy and also to its delivery. Delivery amended rather than to rely on a letter which could all is the role of the implementation plan. This amendment too easily be ignored by future Ministers. At present, is about agreeing the principle on the face of the Bill, regional planning bodies are to take advice from local not the detail of how it might be done. That principle authorities and national park authorities in preparing is too important to be left to guidance which can be regional strategies. This is set out in Section 4(4) of the changed at the stroke of a Minister’s pen. Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004. The Bill would repeal that requirement. Instead the regional Briefly on Amendment 168, this amendment has planning body would be required to consult national not been tabled previously in any form. It follows from park authorities and local authorities on an already Amendment 164. It reinforces the point that, instead prepared strategy. Why does this matter? National of new legislation, the aim is simply to ensure that park authorities and local authorities have taken their existing duties under the Planning and Compulsory responsibilities seriously. They are a source of expertise, Purchase Act 2004 remain. The amendment therefore in the case of NPAs, on issues relating to sustainable seeks to leave out the provisions in this Bill which development and in particular their application to would repeal Section 4(4) of the 2004 Act and in so rural environments. It can help the regional planning doing reduce the ability of national park authorities body better to understand the implications of different and local authorities to engage meaningfully in regional policies and options and to avoid conflicting policies. planning at an early stage. The existence of the Section 4(4) duty has led to service-level agreements being adopted between national Lord Chorley: My Lords, since this is the first time I parks and local authorities. It has helped strengthen have spoken on this Bill, I should declare an interest as working relationships at a regional and sub-regional a vice-president of the Council for National Parks and level. My noble friend will be aware that a duty to take vice-president of Friends of the Lake District. 511 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 512

[LORD CHORLEY] that made it very clear that community involvement I gladly put my name to the four amendments of needs to be meaningful, and to be meaningful it has to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and I am glad that two of be effective. Therefore, that one word has an important them are subscribed to by the Liberal Democrats. meaning in the Bill. Those are our three amendments, There is not much more that I need to say. It is difficult all of which would add clarity and emphasis to to find a hole or gap in the remarks of the noble Lord, the Bill. Lord Judd. He put a comprehensive argument for the amendments. I reiterate the point that national parks are not the same as local authorities—they are national. 7pm They are a provision of the 1949 Act. Their interests Lord Smith of Leigh: My Lords, perhaps I may are national—they represent the nation and not local speak to the amendments from a north-west perspective. authorities. It is extremely important that that is recognised Before I do, I declare the interests which I declared in at all stages in a Bill whose provisions I find difficult to Committee. I was for some time the chairman of the understand. North West Regional Assembly’s executive board, which I will close on the point about national parks. I became 4NW. I resigned from that position when I hope that the Minister will look with favour on what became a member of the Northwest Regional the noble Lord has been saying. Development Agency in December. As I think the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, Lord Tope: As the noble Lord, Lord Chorley, has would recognise, as well as two big cities, the north-west just said, there is little to add to what the noble Lord, contains quite a considerable rural area. I do not think Lord Judd, has just said in speaking to Amendments 164 that you can get more rural than Cumbria. In creating and 165. My noble friend Lady Hamwee has added 4NW, which is essentially the leaders’ forum before the her name to Amendment 164. If there had been room, Bill cuts through, we had to make sure that all the I would have added mine as well but we both managed different parts of the north-west were effectively to get our names down in time on Amendment 165. represented. We started off by saying that each of the We therefore readily support the amendments. The sub-regions should have three representatives, and that noble Lord has moved them so well and so fully that within those sub-regions, which had different kinds of there is little that can be usefully added other than authority, all the different kinds of authority should again to express our support. be represented. For example, if it was a unitary authority, Before I move to our amendments, perhaps I may there should also be a county and a district member. also say that we fully support Amendment 157B, At the end of last year we also started working with which stands at the head of this group. As the noble the NWDA on a regional strategy which, I again Lord, Lord Hanningfield, said in moving it, it commands assure noble Lords, does not work in quite the way wide support, including that of the Local Government suggested. We started off by issuing a consultation Association, and we add to that. draft on issues of principles which has gone out to all Amendment 160A stands in my name and that of the partner agencies and local authorities. We will my noble friend. We had assumed that Clause 68 develop the strategy over the summer and more than would expect all authorities within an area to participate 50 participating partners will be involved in the in a leaders’ board, but the debate in Grand Committee consultation. After the draft is produced towards the and subsection (3) suggests that it may not be the case. end of this year there will be a longer period of Amendment 160A has therefore been tabled partly to consultation before the strategy is agreed. At each clarify that, but also, if it is not the case, to add the stage all the local authorities and partner agencies will words, “and which determine to participate”. be able to contribute. My noble friend Lord Judd was Amendment 160B returns to a point that was raised concerned about the Lake District National Park. I in Grand Committee, which is to ensure that leaders’ assure him that it is a full member of 4NW and that it boards enjoy full party and non-party representation. participates in it, as do the other agencies that are not If they are drawn solely from the leader of a party in included formally. Health needed to be included, so control or their representative, that will often not be we got the strategic health authority involved. The the case—indeed, I think that reference was made in new HCA is also involved. Those are some of the Grand Committee to the fact that, as things stand at participating bodies. If you went to the meetings, you the moment in the south-west of England, the party of would not know where you were. national government would have no representation on I am concerned by the amendments on party politics a leaders’ board, which is absurd. If the leaders’ board tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tope. I am not sure is to command widespread support, to have credibility that we want the leaders’ boards to become party and genuinely to be able to speak for the communities, political. One of the problems that we had in the a way must be found to ensure that all the political North West Regional Assembly was that it became parties represented in that area are represented on the very political and we were not talking to each other; in board and that, if and where there are independent fact, we were arguing. When I became chairman of the members, they, too, have an appropriate voice. executive board, I set out deliberately to be consensual. Amendment 164A would add the simple word I would not let the Labour group or any of the other “effective”. I am sure that the Government would say groups meet on their own, because they wanted to that they want involvement to be effective, but, as represent each other’s sub-regions. I said to my Liberal things stand, nothing requires it to be effective; it may Democrat colleagues in Stockport, “I’ve got more in simply be a consultative process that is gone through common with you than I have with the Labour for the sake of it. We wanted to add a word to the Bill representatives up in Cumbria”. We needed to make 513 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 514 sure that we represented not just our own interests as a every region in which there is a park and necessitate particular local authority but the collective interest. consultation with them. We want the leaders’ boards We had to listen to each other, participate in debate to be small enough to be effective, streamlined, managed and make sure that we did not divide along party lines, and properly representative of local areas, but the because collaboration means working together. Therefore, noble Lords have made an important case. On automatic inclusion of political parties is a difficult Amendment 160, I recognise the importance of my matter. One has only to look at some of the local noble friend’s argument regarding the national parks. authorities these days—Stoke-on-Trent would come I have listened to the concerns expressed and we will to mind—to see the number of splits, splinters and come back with a proposal to ensure that the Bill parties. If you had to have one representative from enables national parks to be properly represented without every one, you would probably need to hire a room undermining the principle of regional self-organisation. much bigger than this one to get all those different On my noble friend’s Amendment 165, on the parties in it. The leader needs to represent not an consultation arrangements, it is clear to me that noble authority or a political party but his area, whether it is Lords consider it important to spell out in more detail urban or rural, and try to make decisions which improve the relationship between the responsible regional the lot of the people in it. I was very proud when I authorities and the local authorities boards and individual stepped down from my previous role to hear people local authorities. Again, I am willing to take the comment that we had not had a vote—that is not true; matter away and consider how we can address noble we had one vote on the name 4NW, which I lost. Lords’ concerns by setting out more clearly in the Bill Working in that way meant that people had to think the reciprocal duties of the responsible regional authorities and listen to each other and not argue along party to consult, engage and take advice from local authorities political lines. in the region and the responsibilities of local authorities to engage in that process. I hope that noble Lords will Lord Tope: My Lords, the noble Lord’s approach is be happy about that. exactly right and admirable. But does he agree that in order to be listened to, one has to be present? On the amendments laid out by the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, I think that we had a similar group Lord Smith of Leigh: My Lords, that is true. However, of amendments in Committee. Amendments 157 and although there are two Labour members and one 164 require the responsible regional authorities to seek Liberal Democrat member in Greater Manchester we advice from the county and unitary councils, the national ensure that we also represent the two Conservative parks and broads authorities, and so forth. The noble councils in the area, because we have a collective view Lord makes a powerful case about the different on the issues that we raise. If we want the bodies to be geographies of this country, in particular the rural effective, as the noble Lord’s amendment seeks, we as opposed to the urban. This is a restatement of also need to think about their size. amendments we considered in Committee, particularly in the light of concern expressed by the Local Government Association that the Bill does not replicate the Baroness Andrews: My Lords, what an interesting Section 4(4) provision of the Planning and Compulsory and lively debate. Many of the amendments relate to Purchase Act 2004 and is therefore perceived as weakening the composition of the boards and the danger of the role of strategic authorities held in principle under prescription. We have tried in the arrangements that the previous legislation. we propose to give regions greater flexibility to devise detailed administrative arrangements which suit their I sought to reassure noble Lords and the LGA that regional circumstances. That came though in our sub- counties and national park authorities will have a national report and is also the view of the LGA, which number of clear statutory roles. I subsequently wrote agrees that it should be for local authorities in a region to the LGA and the ENPAA setting these out. They to determine these things. I am very grateful to my include different levels of responsibility; a new duty to noble friend Lord Smith for having just spoken about prepare economic assessments, which will be a key how it is working in practice. input, as we have just described, into the evidence base We debated this matter in Committee, where I said of the regional strategies; and a crucial role in establishing that the principle that we were trying to hold on to is and configuring the leaders’ board in their region. non-prescription and explained why the Government Many county leaders will be members of their leaders’ have deliberately shied away from covering within the board and therefore have direct management control Bill matters that we thought inappropriate for national of the regional strategy and process. They will also government to prescribe, such as the detailed composition have a role as statutory consultees in their own right of the leaders’ board and consultative arrangements. and be consulted on draft revisions to the regional However, in recognition of concern about these points strategy. We will set out our consultation expectations and in response to requests for greater certainty, we in regulations and guidance, including a list of consultees. also indicated that further details would be covered by That will additionally be covered in the statement of guidance and/or regulations, such as a list of statutory community involvement. consultees to be set out in regulations. However, we I believe that this package of provisions give counties are trying to strike the right balance between flexibility and national parks much more real, practical influence and assurance, and meeting different expectations. over the regional strategy than they had over the RSS My noble friend Lord Judd, supported by the noble via the regional assembly, which had a much looser Lord, Lord Chorley, have tabled amendments which arrangement, and certainly more than they ever had in would include the national parks as representatives in relation to the regional economic strategy. We have a 515 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 516

[BARONESS ANDREWS] Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I thank the noble range of ways in which counties and districts can take Baroness for that very comprehensive answer. I do not advantage of input and participation to get a better think that it totally addresses the points that I made at level of influence. I think it will be a challenge and the beginning. If the economic assessments are going although I agree that we have not replicated it in to be carried out by counties in conjunction with exactly the same way as in the PCPA, there will no loss districts—we did not win the concession that they of opportunity or access to influence. should be automatically involved, but we are assured I turn briefly to Amendment 168 in the name of my they will be—then when it comes to the actual regional noble friend Lord Judd and the noble Lord, Lord strategy, since the bodies we have just been talking Chorley. We will shortly be debating the need for an about are not going to be properly, statutorily consulted integrated strategy and I know that this amendment on it, I do not see how the thing is going to be will keep the current system of regional spatial strategies joined-up. I do not accept what the noble Baroness by retaining Part 1 of the 2004 Act. I will not rehearse said about the regional strategy being joined-up and my arguments now but will say that we urgently need a from the bottom up. single strategy to bring together the spatial expression The noble Lord, Lord Smith, made a convincing of the need not least to provide more housing but also argument about what was happening in the north-west to manage our resources, with the economic strategy but he was actually talking about how the leaders’ which is more closely focused on economic considerations board would operate. The ultimate power will be the such as jobs, skills, enterprise, business, investment regional development assembly—that is my point as and innovation. That is what a single regional strategy well as the point of the noble Lord, Lord Judd—and will do for the first time. It is long overdue in some my amendment would make the national parks a cases. However, if noble Lords will allow me, I will consultee in the regional strategy. This is an LGA come on to that debate later. amendment. It is an all-party amendment from the LGA and I do not see why the Government cannot 7.15 pm accept it. It would put into the Bill what should I turn to the three amendments in the name of the happen and who should be consulted about establishing Liberal Democrat spokesmen. Amendment 160A would a regional strategy. It is very important to test the allow local authorities to choose to opt out of opinion of the House on this. participation. I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said, but I did not find it very convincing. We 7.19 pm have already made clear the flexibility available to participating authorities in determining how they establish Division on Amendment 157B their leaders’ board and who should be a member, and I think that that is right and proper. Given the importance Contents 92; Not-Contents 118. of the strategy and the key role of the leaders’ board, it seems right to require at least a certain level of Amendment 157B disagreed. participation from every local authority in critical parts of that process, and I think that input to establishing Division No. 2 a leaders’ board is one of those. Amendment 160B is about participation and CONTENTS representation by all political parties. I think that that Addington, L. Glentoran, L. was very well answered by my noble friend and I do Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Hamilton of Epsom, L. not have anything to add to that. Finally, Amendment Astor, V. Hamwee, B. Attlee, E. Hanningfield, L. 164A puts a greater onus on the statement of community Best, L. Harris of Richmond, B. involvement to demonstrate that the policies within Bew, L. Hooper, B. the statement will be effective. I do not think that the Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Howe, E. amendment has that effect. We had a discussion in B. Howe of Aberavon, L. Committee about the challenge of making community Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Howe of Idlicote, B. L. Jenkin of Roding, L. involvement a genuine and inclusive process. It is very Brougham and Vaux, L. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. important that we work hard to make that so, and we Byford, B. Knight of Collingtree, B. committed to doing it. Looking at this amendment, it Carnegy of Lour, B. Lee of Trafford, L. is very difficult to define effectiveness and very difficult Chidgey, L. Lindsay, E. to define how it might be assessed. I am sure that the Colwyn, L. Livsey of Talgarth, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. Luke, L. noble Lords would not want a purely presentational Cotter, L. McNally, L. amendment; they would want it to work, and there is Craigavon, V. Maddock, B. already an implicit expectation that policies put forward Dholakia, L. Mar and Kellie, E. by the responsible regional authorities should be effective. Dixon-Smith, L. Marlesford, L. If they are not, they will certainly be challenged in the Dykes, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Eccles of Moulton, B. Mawson, L. iterative process of consultation, in the examination in Falkland, V. Mayhew of Twysden, L. public. Falkner of Margravine, B. Neuberger, B. I regret that I cannot accept these thoughtful Fearn, L. Neville-Jones, B. amendments. However, I hope that noble Lords have Fowler, L. Northbrook, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Northesk, E. been persuaded and that my noble friend Lord Judd is Gardner of Parkes, B. Northover, B. happy that we will address the issue that he raised in Geddes, L. O’Cathain, B. his amendments. Glasgow, E. Onslow, E. 517 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] NHS: Doctors 518

Pearson of Rannoch, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. West of Spithead, L. Wilkins, B. Razzall, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Whitaker, B. Redesdale, L. Strathclyde, L. Whitty, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Rennard, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Teverson, L. Rogan, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Consideration on Report adjourned until not before Rotherwick, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. 8.30 pm. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Tonge, B. St. John of Bletso, L. Tope, L. [Teller] Scott of Needham Market, B. Tordoff, L. Seccombe, B. Ullswater, V. NHS: Doctors Selborne, E. Vallance of Tummel, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. Verma, B. Question for Short Debate Shrewsbury, E. Waddington, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Skelmersdale, L. Walmsley, B. 7.30 pm Smith of Clifton, L. Walpole, L. Tabled By Viscount Falkland

NOT CONTENTS To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the National Acton, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Health Service does not provide doctors to treat Adams of Craigielea, B. Jay of Paddington, B. critically injured and ill patients outside hospital Adonis, L. Jones, L. anywhere in the United Kingdom except London. Alli, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Andrews, B. Jordan, L. Archer of Sandwell, L. King of West Bromwich, L. Viscount Falkland: My Lords, I think that we shall, Bach, L. Kirkhill, L. unhappily, be a reduced number in a few seconds. I Bassam of Brighton, L. Layard, L. [Teller] Lea of Crondall, L. shall try to explain to the House why my debate Berkeley, L. Leitch, L. probably has a small number of people who will be Bernstein of Craigweil, L. Levy, L. contributing, but to whom I am enormously grateful. Bilston, L. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. I knew very little about this subject until a few months Blood, B. McDonagh, B. ago, so I can understand people’s bemusement when Borrie, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. they read on the Order Paper what we are debating. Bradley, L. McIntosh of Haringey, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Brennan, L. My question is whether the National Health Service Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Brett, L. is actually fulfilling its remit to provide the best possible L. service at point of need. We all recognise, of course, Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Brookman, L. Maxton, L. how it does that to the best of its abilities and within Carter of Coles, L. Meacher, B. great financial constraints. Yet we are deficient in one Chandos, V. Mitchell, L. area, because what I am about to describe does not Clarke of Hampstead, L. Morgan, L. exist in most of the countries of Europe or, indeed, Clinton-Davis, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. other countries in the civilised world. Those who are Corbett of Castle Vale, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Crawley, B. Morris of Manchester, L. taken ill or involved in a serious accident outside the Davies of Abersoch, L. Morris of Yardley, B. London area—that is, roughly within the M25—are Davies of Coity, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. treated by dedicated emergency crews that consist Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller] Patel of Blackburn, L. largely of paramedics and the police, with ambulances Desai, L. Patel of Bradford, L. present. Yet there is no doctor present who can cope Dixon, L. Pendry, L. Donoughue, L. Pitkeathley, B. with critical care for someone who has been involved D’Souza, B. Plant of Highfield, L. in a serious motor or sporting accident, or one that Dubs, L. Puttnam, L. involves crushing of the spine or head injuries. Outside Elder, L. Quin, B. the London area, there is no critical care doctor Elystan-Morgan, L. Radice, L. present to make sure that those injured people can get Evans of Parkside, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. to the appropriate hospital within the time that may Falconer of Thoroton, L. Rooker, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Rosser, L. save their lives. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Rowlands, L. In fact, figures tell us that in the south central Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. area—the area on which I have been briefed, through Gale, B. Sawyer, L. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Scotland of Asthal, B. my long friendship with people in the Hampshire Golding, B. Sewel, L. Police Authority—for those patients who are seriously Graham of Edmonton, L. Simon, V. injured in accidents of the kind that I have described, Harris of Haringey, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. there is a 40 per cent mortality rate because of the Hart of Chilton, L. Smith of Leigh, L. delays in getting them to a hospital that can deal with Haskel, L. Snape, L. them quickly, and with specialist care, within the time. Haworth, L. Soley, L. Henig, B. Stone of Blackheath, L. That is because of the paramedics. I would not dare Hilton of Eggardon, B. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. suggest that the paramedics do not do their job admirably; Hollick, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. they are dedicated people, underpaid for what they Hollis of Heigham, B. Thornton, B. do—with no bonuses whether they do it right or Howarth of Breckland, B. Tunnicliffe, L. wrong—who go out in all weathers. Up to the level of Howarth of Newport, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. Howells of St. Davids, B. Warner, L. their competence and training, they do the best that Hoyle, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. they can. Yet people who are severely injured—who Hughes of Woodside, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. may well be unconscious, have crushed chests with 519 NHS: Doctors[LORDS] NHS: Doctors 520

[VISCOUNT FALKLAND] London when patients are critically injured and ill?”. damaged airways, or the head injuries about which The Minister and I have both been involved with the one reads of so often in the newspapers—need expert Red Cross. We know how important emergency medical attention very quickly. services are. One Red Cross activity is planning and I have been briefed for this debate by a group of helping in disasters. More and more paramedics are doctors who do not get paid for what they do, but being used in emergency situations these days. They work under charitable funding through an organisation are now much better trained than a few years ago, and called the British Association for Immediate Care—a can use much more sophisticated equipment. Regarding sort of umbrella charity. If such doctors volunteer, an emergency response, however, although paramedics when they are available and can get out there, people have good assessing skills, they do not always have the have a chance of surviving. The losses in the southern competence to prioritise certain treatments. If a doctor central area, the one about which I know most through could be present, it might be possible to start urgent my briefing, indicate what prevails throughout the treatment early, which might reduce serious injury or British Isles. A properly organised, doctor-led service loss of life. could certainly save 141 lives a year in the southern In TV programmes such as “Casualty”, crash teams area; in money terms, I believe that that is roughly with doctors go out to serious incidents. Is that realistic calculated as saving the area £186 million a year. or does it not happen? Perhaps the Minister can let me Birmingham, for example, suffers the same in that know whether they give a real or a false impression. there are innumerable accidents in that conurbation. When not in London, my home is in north Yorkshire. In last year’s records, it had 389 call-outs for specialist The North Yorkshire and York Primary Care Trust is doctors and 1,978 arrivals. Compared with other parts the size of Belgium. It covers 3,200 square miles, much of the country, that is quite a good record. Yet the of which is rural. For people living in the Yorkshire number of people in need of the special care of Dales, their nearest hospital can be 30 or 40 miles qualified doctors who have to act immediately to get away. Without the air ambulance service, many lives patients to a hospital that can deal with their particular would be lost. Some local GPs are trained to be part of trauma is certainly evidence of a need to overhaul the the pre-hospital care team. In this country, all doctors service. That will entail a National Health Service are initially trained by the National Health Service. commitment for funding. My noble friend Lady Tonge This important service would not exist without much is much better qualified than I to talk on these subjects. fundraising. This comes as less of a surprise to her, with her Seriously injured people are taken to the most medical training, than it might to others. She will appropriate hospital, which may be a long way from elaborate in more detail on these matters. home as it is vital to get specialist treatment when the The competence of paramedics is not in question, condition needs it. I say to the noble Viscount that but when it comes to anaesthetics or opening airways some paramedics now carry out this task. They have or things that need particular expertise and time, a been trained to take a patient to the nearest specialised doctor really is required in quick order—if it is possible hospital. That has recently happened. to get them there. Once there, those doctors can speed The principle of a doctor/paramedic team was first up the process of getting the patient to the right used by the London Helicopter Emergency Medical hospital. The job of the paramedics is to get the Service. This fundamental break from the usual patient to the nearest general hospital, from where paramedic-only model radically changed the dynamics they may then have to be transferred again. It might of the crew and the level of care available to patients in take as long as 12, 13 or 14 hours before someone with the pre-hospital environment. In 2003, the Great North serious head injuries gets to a place where they can be Air Ambulance Service integrated physicians into its treated, by which time they may be so injured that they team. Several air ambulance services are utilising this are no longer able to function, or they may be dead. approach to pre-hospital care, including in Kent, Surrey, That is the sum of my introduction to this debate, Sussex, the east of England and the West Midlands. and I do not think that many paramedics would HEMS physicians may originate from a number of disagree with it. There is nothing that they would like specialities, including emergency medicine, anaesthetics better than to have a qualified doctor working alongside and general medicine. Regardless of specialist medical them, but should charitable organisations really be background, doctors should have a strong grasp of funding those doctors? They can only free themselves the fundamentals and demonstrate practical ability in when they are not working in their daily jobs but, the other acute specialities. For example, an anaesthetics when they are called, they go out in all weathers and specialist should have completed a significant period do an admirable job. Is it not time, then, for us to of emergency medicine, and an emergency physician follow the rest of Europe, and the world, in providing should have a background in anaesthesia and critical a properly funded and doctor-led critical care service? care. To this end, most HEMS operations require Why should people who are not in hospital but are on similar criteria. their way to it get worse treatment than those who go Serious illness often presents out of doctors’ hours. to hospital and are treated in the normal way? It can be very difficult in rural areas for seriously disabled people and people who do not drive to get access to a doctor. Doctors have to cover events such 7.38 pm as horse shows, race meetings, rugby games and all Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, I thank the sorts of occasions. Organisers of the events have to noble Viscount for this Question, which will have pay for that, but it shows the importance of doctors made several people think, “What happens outside being present where there are risks. I think the answer 521 NHS: Doctors[23 MARCH 2009] NHS: Doctors 522 to the noble Viscount’s Question is that there is an They are not allowed to do it now. The difficulty important need for doctors to save lives, but the NHS comes when the patient is semi-conscious and needs to cannot afford to do everything. At times there has be anaesthetised before the tube is put into their to be shared co-operation, communication and windpipe to give them essential oxygen. That can be co-ordination. done only by a fully trained doctor anaesthetist, someone Some years ago, a GP called Dr Easton living near who really knows what they are doing. It is quite a Catterick started a rota of GPs linked up with the delicate procedure. Then the patient can go to hospital police, who went out to serious injuries on the notorious and, one hopes, the right hospital. Sometimes, as we A1 and surrounding roads. This excellent scheme was have heard, they will go to an A&E department, where highly commended and appreciated by the local people, they are assessed and sent on to a specialist centre. but it was in the days when doctors’ hours were more Valuable time is lost. The worst scenario is if a doctor flexible. I hope that strategic health authorities and is not at the scene of the accident quickly to ensure PCTs across the country will look very carefully at that the patient’s brain gets oxygen. That is the crucial what happens in their locations to critically injured thing. and ill patients and how improvements can be made It is worth reflecting on the fact that the mortality across the country. rate for severe trauma in this country is 40 per cent I am reminded of the tragic young rugby player higher than in the United States of America. Recently, who broke his neck and was paralysed from the neck there was a national confidential “enquiry” into patient down. Finally, he went to Switzerland to end his life, outcome and death, called Trauma: Who Cares?. which he found intolerable. His mother recently stated Incidentally, why is that a confidential “enquiry”; that when he was taken from the rugby field to a surely it should be an inquiry? Will someone please hospital, his arms were still moving. After having been educate the Department of Health as to the difference? x-rayed, and twisted and turned, he became totally The inquiry said that many trauma victims, including paralysed. I am told that he should have been operated children, as well as stroke cases and those in diabetic on within four hours to relieve the pressure on the comas—people with all sorts of conditions need oxygen spinal cord. It was too late by the time he was admitted given to the brain during the transfer to hospital—are to a spinal unit. dying in this country through a lack of appropriate I end by quoting from the 2007 report Trauma: care. The Department for Transport accident report Who Cares? It states: in 2006 said that there were 3,172 deaths and 28,673 “To be effective all processes, including”— serious injuries across the UK. With proper care at the scene of the accident, studies have shown, over 2,000 acute trauma life support— lives could have been saved; two out of each three “and other components of care of severely injured patient, must people who died could be alive today if proper care be embedded in practice at every stage: the scene of the accident; alerts to the hospital; the journey from the scene to the emergency had been available. department; preparations made there; expertise accessible on In the USA, Australia and many countries in Europe, arrival and at all subsequent stages, including transfer to specialist such as Germany, there is 24-hour, seven-day-a-week services … It is by sympathetically, and analytically, studying pre-hospital care provision. In London, an NHS-funded where things go wrong that we can learn most”. critical care doctor and paramedic team are on call When critically injured patients are being handled and during the day. That is rather typical of the NHS, I treated, it should be of utmost importance in the have always thought. Apparently people do not have minds of the medical personnel that further damage accidents or get seriously ill at night. If you are going must not take place and the correct procedures must to be ill or crash you car, you should do it in the always be followed. daytime, for heaven’s sake. In London, there is a pretty good daytime service, anyway: as we know, there is the 7.47 pm air ambulance and good road transit when the roads Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I congratulate my noble are free. At night, however, the service is covered by friend on securing the debate. This is an important volunteers and the ambulance crews. This should be subject. I must confess that the more I look into it, the available countrywide, 24 hours a day, seven days a more amazed I am at how inadequate the provision is. week. In fact, severe trauma is the only area of the In the 10 years since I stopped practising in the health NHS where a patient dies through the lack of a service, I had not really thought about it. It really is doctor. quite astonishing. The British Association for Immediate Care— Let us just recall what happens. After a serious BASICS—consists of volunteer doctors working in accident, an ambulance is called; 75 per cent of accidents their spare time to give care to the desperately injured; are attended within eight minutes. That is not a problem; they must be tired, and they are not paid. This is a the ambulances get there. It is pretty good. We have patchy service across the country and yet another heard of the wonderful services given by the ambulance example of the postcode lottery. I pay tribute to crews and the paramedics. However, the victim’s survival Dr Phil Hyde, Dr David Sutton, Dr Charles Deakin depends crucially on their airway being kept open and and many others who work in Hampshire. They not their brain being supplied with oxygen. That is a basic only provide this service voluntarily but have campaigned need that we human beings have; we need oxygen to hard and long to bring it to our attention and to that our brains if we are going to stay alive. of Members in the other place. My honourable friend In the past paramedics used to intubate, which Mark Oaten introduced a debate in Westminster Hall means putting a tube down the windpipe of the patient. last June, which I hope the Minister has seen; it was a They could do that only if the patient was unconscious. very good debate. 523 NHS: Doctors[LORDS] NHS: Doctors 524

[BARONESS TONGE] Sir George Alberti, the emergency access director, We have recently heard of the appointment of a has been studying that very issue. I know that one “trauma tsar”. New Labour loves its tsars; I never aspect that he has been examining is the lessons that understand why it loves them so much, but perhaps we can learn from abroad. Comparisons with other that says something about its mentality. We are told countries are never totally straightforward, but it seems that strategic health authorities will be required to that we in the UK are not doing as well as we should have trauma centres, but there is still no planned or could be. America, for one, is far ahead of us in the national service; it is dependent on strategic health percentage of trauma patients delivered alive to hospital. authorities. The response is the usual message that In Germany, there is a nationwide network of air and primary care trusts and the SHAs are responsible for road ambulances that can, and do, get a skilled doctor assessing need in their area. I am sorry, but I do not to the scene of the vast majority of emergencies within understand them assessing need in their areas for a quarter of an hour, with impressive results. Here, as trauma patients and serious accidents. There must be we have heard, the presence of a doctor at the scene of a pretty uniform rate of accidents throughout the an incident is a hit-and-miss affair, depending on country. This service is needed everywhere and should where you happen to be. That really cannot be a not be left to the whims of individual area managers. satisfactory situation. We know that people will die if they do not receive What difference does a doctor make? The noble proper care and oxygen to their brains before they Viscount and the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, reach hospital. We cannot say that often enough. summarised it very well. The answer is that it depends Again, it is not just trauma patients, but cardiac on the nature of the trauma but, in general, if you patients, stroke patients, people in diabetic comas and have a patient whose airway is blocked and who needs many, many children. It is a scandal that our health intubating, only a doctor can see to that. Only a service does not recognise this and ensure that this doctor can administer the drugs and pain relief that service is provided. If anything is to be decided locally, the person is likely to need. If someone has been maybe it could be whether the service is provided by knifed, only a doctor is capable of opening up the air ambulance or a fast road vehicle, as that will chest at the scene of the incident. depend on local conditions, but not the trauma itself. I repeat: trauma centres, yes, but the patients have to Saying that is not to belittle or detract from the get to them alive for them to be any good. That takes skills of paramedics, who are highly professional and time and trained doctors who can attend the scene of dedicated people, but paramedics are trained only to a the accident in the first place and ensure that the certain level. They are not doctors. The 2007 report patient arrives alive. The operating framework for the Trauma: Who Cares?, which has already been mentioned NHS in England for 2008-09 tells PCTs what they this evening, pointed to a high incidence of patients must do, but I did not see anything about critical care arriving at hospital with a partially or completely at the scene of an accident or the requirement to obstructed airway and an unacceptably high incidence ensure that local emergency care services will provide of failed intubation. It is interesting that 41 per cent of such a service. patients treated by a helicopter-based system were I repeat: a team of one doctor and one paramedic. intubated at the scene of the incident. That is nearly Those doctors cannot be the doctors who work in the six times the percentage of patients intubated by road trauma centres or those who work in accident and ambulance crews. emergency, who must stay where they are. I acknowledge Of course, response times and intubation rates are that extra staff are needed, but we are talking about only proxy measures for what really counts in trauma one paramedic and one doctor,qualified to give anaesthetics care, which are long-term outcomes. Here we are in and perform intubation at the accident site, on call the age of quality indicators and quality accounts, but 24 hours a day. I hope that the Minister will relieve my the amount of public discussion about quality in distress and save lives by telling me that, among the trauma care has been minimal. I am aware that PCTs paper storm that comes from the Department of Health, and ambulance trusts have been devoting attention to there will soon be one setting up this service. this area and we must hope that the result of this will be a sharper focus on best practice and greater uniformity 7.56 pm of care across the country. Published studies have provided clear evidence that an ambulance crew consisting Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Viscount, Lord of a doctor as well as a paramedic delivers significantly Falkland, has done us a great service by tabling this higher survival rates and lower morbidity. The College debate. I thank him for that and for his powerful and of Emergency Medicine has added its weight to this persuasive speech. Trauma care is a topic that has analysis. received precious little attention in this House during recent years, which I regret because trauma is the The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, has previously indicated fourth leading cause of death in people below the age his view that we need to move towards developing of 40. In terms of serious injury and long-term disability, dedicated regional trauma centres where specialised it represents an enormous burden on society and the services can be concentrated. I agree with that, but it is NHS, so it deserves a lot more parliamentary air time. of course only part of the answer, because the logical In a given week there are reckoned to be 240 severely consequence of having fewer specialist centres is longer injured patients who are taken to hospital across the distances for very seriously injured patients to travel. UK. Collectively, that is a lot of patients. The natural That is why there is now so much interest in developing and obvious question that arises is how well or badly a network of air ambulances. At the moment, air we are doing in looking after those people. ambulances are run by some 18 air ambulance charities. 525 NHS: Doctors[23 MARCH 2009] NHS: Doctors 526

The financial contribution that the NHS makes, or such a study. A good deal of the data that we possess does not make, to the running costs of those charities has come from TARN, the Trauma Audit and Research is a debate for another day, but I am slightly worried Network, which was instigated 20 years ago following that, when it comes to developing and enhancing air a working party report by the Royal College of Surgeons. ambulance services, the Government are leaving rather That database is extremely valuable, but participation too much to local determination. That point was in it needs to be rolled out more widely if we are to powerfully made by the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge. gain an understanding of where the most serious Certainly, the local NHS and the charities should shortcomings in trauma care exist. sit down and work out how to move the service I hope that the Minister can illuminate these issues forward and how in particular more doctors can be and give us cause to hope that the concerns raised by put into helicopters. However, the question that this the noble Viscount and, indeed, all speakers will be raises is what benchmarks the NHS and the charities satisfactorily addressed. are able to use to agree on an appropriately high level of service. What standards for trauma care should we 8.06 pm expect them to aspire to and what in human resource terms does it take to deliver those standards in a given Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I welcome the set of circumstances? Those questions can surely be opportunity to respond to this debate about such an resolved only at national level. I should like the Minister important issue; I agree with the noble Earl on that to say whether she agrees with me about that. and I congratulate the noble Viscount on persisting with this debate, which was delayed due to snow. This We need to grasp the point about standards, which issue of the treatment of critically ill and injured of course applies equally to land ambulance services. patients outside hospital and the role of doctors in The Trauma: Who Cares? report came to the sobering that treatment, NHS support and otherwise, is critical. conclusion that nearly 60 per cent of trauma patients received a standard of care that was less than good NHS services have to deal effectively with critically practice. It said: injured and ill patients and give them the support and treatment they need, as and when they need it. The job “The organisation of prehospital care, the trauma team response, of central government is to provide strategic direction, seniority of staff involvement and immediate in-hospital care was found to be deficient in many cases. Lack of appreciation of as the noble Earl said. However, it is surely right that severity of illness, of urgency of clinical scenario and incorrect local services determine the best organisational clinical decision making were apparent … the provision of suitably arrangements to ensure that the right services are in experienced staff during evenings and nights was much lower the right place at the right time and to provide than at other times … this is a major concern”. appropriately for the needs of patients in this area. That is a pretty serious list of failings and, while some Perhaps I should declare an interest. My brother is of it can no doubt be addressed by concentrating an ambulance driver in Yorkshire and, I think, is trauma care into fewer centres, some of it points to the qualifying as a paramedic right now. need for national clinical standards and clear guidance What matters is that patients get the right care at on best practice. the right time, whether that is from a paramedic, an I am aware of the framework document published emergency care practitioner, a doctor or another service, last year that set out a number of recommended and whether that care is provided by the NHS or by management and service standards for air ambulances, partners such as BASICS doctors or air ambulances. but this is not quite the same thing as trying to define It is for the local NHS to commission and manage the standards that should apply to ambulance care these services. I shall come on to talk about the framework overall. We need to recognise, as that document points that is necessary to deliver that, and what we hope will out, that pre-hospital emergency care is now a speciality happen. in its own right. There is no doubt whatever that Noble Lords mentioned London. Its environment expert critical care at the roadside, if it arrives early presents special and unique circumstances in which enough, has a significant effect on patient outcomes in those dispatched to treat the seriously ill and injured cases of serious injury. Some ambulance trusts now have to operate. I am pleased to be able to acknowledge provide fast response unit cars staffed by individual that London’s air ambulance is recognised world wide paramedics. These are helpful in a lot of cases such as as having led the way in the treatment of advanced heart attacks, but they cannot be a substitute for a trauma. The London Ambulance Service is also fortunate fully fledged ambulance, nor can they do anything to to be able to call on an extremely well established team speed up a patient’s journey to hospital. Speed of of BASICS doctors who possess a wealth of experience response is important, but we need to be very careful; in this kind of care; but of course circumstances and targets imposed on ambulance trusts that are expressed demands differ across the country. in terms of response times and nothing else carry dangers, because they fail to address what really matters, which is the quality of care that patients receive once Baroness Tonge: My Lords, before the noble Baroness help has arrived. leaves the subject of London, can she explain why there is not a 24-hour service there and why we have to Reading about this subject, I have been struck by depend on volunteers for part of the 24 hours? the absence of useful statistical information. Over the years, there have been various studies relating to the care of trauma patients, but there has never been a Baroness Thornton: My Lords, it is a 24-hour service. nationwide study looking at the overall care of such Perhaps I may continue with my remarks to explain patients. The Government should seriously consider what happens. 527 NHS: Doctors[LORDS] NHS: Doctors 528

[BARONESS THORNTON] noble Baroness is suggesting? What you have to do is The work of BASICS doctors differs from area to ensure that ambulance staff and paramedics are as area. I do not pretend that this is a perfect service, but well qualified as they can be. I will talk about their I am trying to explain how we are making progress in training in a moment. You have to ensure that the best this area. We absolutely welcome the invaluable support possible care is available as quickly as possible, but that BASICS provides in advanced trauma cases. clearly that does not include, or depend on, having a On the front line we have an ambulance service that qualified doctor on every ambulance crew, unless that deals with more calls than ever before. It is still treating is what the noble Baroness is suggesting. Clearly, that the critically ill and injured more quickly; it is saving would not be a proper use of qualified doctors. more lives. During 2007-08, 77.1 per cent of category Strategic health authorities, as part of the Government’s A—that is, immediately life-threatening—calls received next-stage review, have to set out their visions for a response at the scene of the incident within eight improving the provision of trauma care services. I am minutes. This is the ambulance service’sbest ever emergency pleased to say that the majority are planning to set up response rate. The new “call connect”method of measuring one or more of these centres. I also welcome the response requires ambulances to respond, on average, appointment of Professor Keith Willett, the Government’s 90 seconds faster than was previously the case. As new director for trauma. I have not, in any of my further evidence of how critically ill and injured people briefings, seen the word “tsar”, so I certainly do not are benefiting, we need to consider that survival rates intend to use it. His appointment comes into effect on for cardiac arrest show a year-on-year improvement in 1 April. He has extensive experience in trauma care the number of people resuscitated after cardiac arrest. and medical management. His appointment sends a We know that we need always to seek better ways of clear message of intent from the Government on this responding to critically injured and ill patients and the issue. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, is quite right: we victims of trauma. In this context, we welcome the expect to hear more about trauma. Indeed, we need to findings and recommendations of the National hear more about trauma. Confidential Enquiry into Patient Outcome and Death, or NCEPOD, report of last November. The report Two issues deserve special mention. First, the noble made strong recommendations about how the treatment Earl, Lord Howe, mentioned research. Research has of trauma care could be improved. The Government shown that air ambulances can provide particular and the NHS have taken the recommendations to assistance in cases where the patient has suffered major heart. The key recommendation of NCEPOD’s report blunt trauma, especially in rural areas and where road is that planning for severe trauma care should be done access is a problem, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, at a regional level. This allows for the pooling of Lady Masham. They can be an effective way of getting specialist skills and equipment, to offer patients for better and faster access to hospitals and are valuable whom every second counts the best quality of care in supporting inter-hospital transfer. The department available, from specialists in specially designed centres. continues to encourage the air ambulance charities and ambulance trusts to work together to agree how There is a relatively low incidence of severe trauma both services can maximise their contribution to high- cases in the UK, with the majority of hospitals seeing quality patient care. In recognition of the contribution less than one such patient per week. The question is that air ambulances make, in 2002 the Government how to have the best-qualified people available on that directed NHS ambulance trusts to meet the costs of basis. Surely, it is more important to have more and clinical staff on air ambulances. That includes, where better-qualified paramedics backed up by BASICS appropriate, doctors. doctors. The Government agree with NCEPOD that it is not necessarily the proximity of the nearest hospital Secondly, I welcome the valuable work of those or accident and emergency department that matters who work for the British Association for Immediate most in some emergencies, but, as the noble Baroness, Care—BASICS—as volunteers. We acknowledge the Lady Masham, pointed out, the care that patients valuable support that these doctors offer local NHS receive from ambulance staff and paramedics, and the services and recognise that the availability of the medical quality of the care that they receive once they arrive at advice and assistance that they bring has advantages hospital. for some seriously injured patients. However, central government currently have no plans to require the Baroness Tonge: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt. NHS to fund BASICS doctors. As I have already The Minister is being very generous in giving way. Yes, explained, it is for the local NHS to decide how it uses of course, the care that the trauma patient receives at BASICS doctors. I understand that in some places the site of the accident will determine whether they ambulance trusts have clear systems to allow them survive. Trauma centres are great, but you need to access to the control room to call on the expertise of stabilise the patient as quickly as possible and get BASICS doctors immediately when they are required. oxygen to their brain before you get them to the In response to a question from the noble Baroness, trauma centre. The Minister is still saying, I think, that Lady Tonge, it is worth noting that some paramedics this service will be provided by ambulance crews and are now trained to intubate. Various trusts across the paramedics, with the help of BASICS doctors. BASICS country have a cadre of specialist trauma paramedics is a charity. Are we to depend on volunteers to assist who have, and indeed use, these skills. the most seriously injured people? The noble Viscount raised the issue of South Central Baroness Thornton: My Lords, I was trying to explain Strategic Health Authority. This SHA advises that that not every single call-out for every single ambulance there is no commissioning of doctors outside the requires a doctor to be on board. Is that what the hospital environment within its area, but it uses the 529 NHS: Doctors[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 530

BASICS voluntary scheme on occasion. The strategic to reassuring us on the points raised by the other health authority considered the skills required in the amendments. That amendment may look slightly eccentric, pre-hospital environment and felt that the priority was as it would move the clause about sustainability up to to expand the capacity of emergency care practitioners, the start of this part of the Bill. Clause 80, as it is now, who have an enhanced range of skills when compared may not be an afterthought, but it reads that way. The with paramedics, for the care of critically ill patients. rubric says that it is supplementary to particular provisions, Paramedics in this region are now able to administer a but in no way is it secondary when one looks at the variety of 40-plus drugs and medications and are also issues in the round. It would do much to confirm what able to perform procedures such as crypto thyroidotomy, the Government have been saying about the place of chest X-rays and so on, in additional to intubation, sustainability if it were part of the introduction to this infusion and other advanced life-saving skills. That part of the Bill rather than coming in at the tail end. occurs within the noble Viscount’s strategic health Amendment No. 157C would change the reference authority. to “sustainable economic growth”, policies for which The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, referred to are to be set out in the regional strategy, to, Yorkshire. The Yorkshire ambulance service receives “sustainable economic development and regeneration”. support from a network of volunteer doctors across the county. These medics are affiliated to BASICS, In other words, it would change the word “growth” to they have specialist training and their skills are particularly “development and regeneration”. The words have different valuable. Their 999 communication centres are linked connotations, or at least different nuances, “growth” to the BASICS doctors by pager so that they can be implying that sustainable development, which this should called upon when needed. be, must encompass growth. I prefer development and regeneration, which is what we are about. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, referred to the new director of trauma, who will be working with the Amendment No. 157D would add to the requirement strategic health authorities and PCTs to help them to for policies in relation to sustainable growth or implement best practice. Professor Willett’s priorities development and policies in relation to the development will include ensuring regional excellence in dealing and use of land a requirement for, with severe trauma. He will be expected to work with “policies in relation to the protection and enhancement of the each strategic health authority to develop the plans environment and social welfare of the region”. that arise out of the NCEPOD report, Trauma: Who That continues my argument that all the aspects of Cares?, and to take forward the next-stage review of sustainability should be recognised and that the regional my noble friend Lord Darzi. strategies should be rounded. The Minister at the In conclusion, we believe that the NHS, guided by previous stage resisted the term “sustainable development” the outcomes of the next-stage review, is providing a in this part of the Bill for technical reasons—in planning better service than ever before. However, we are not terms, “development” has a special meaning—she and complacent: we know that there is room for improvement. we are persuaded of the importance of the other We welcome this debate and the questions that have policy areas. My argument therefore is that they should been raised, and the new director is taking note as be interwoven and melded together and that the third noble Lords speak. I am sure that this will not be the area of the protection and enhancement of the last time that we debate these issues. environment and social welfare should be included. When preparing for today, I was sure that I had got 8.20 pm that wording from somewhere, but I could not remember where; it is either in a government document or possibly Sitting suspended. in a statute somewhere. Amendment 157F requires consistency between the policies. This is not a frivolous point. The policies Local Democracy, Economic Development should be consistent, and, therefore, economic policy and Construction Bill [HL] should not outstrip the others—or the other way Report (Second Day) (Continued) around. In this Bill, I am so aware of the dangers of economic policies taking priority instead of being set 8.30 pm in their proper context. Amendment 164K would require—after a period in Clause 67 [Regional strategy]: Grand Committee one misses having a table to rest papers on—that a plan must, “deliver sustainable growth, using a full range of social, environmental Amendment 157C and economic indicators”. Moved by Baroness Hamwee That is pretty much the same argument. 157C: Clause 67, page 50, line 9, leave out “growth” and insert Amendment 165A is about the regional development “development and regeneration” agencies. This is one amendment that would not be satisfied by transposing Clause 80. In Committee, I Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, in moving the tabled the same amendment to provide that the regional amendment I shall speak also to Amendments 157D, development agencies’ remit and responsibilities should 157F, 164K, 165A and 166A in my name and that of be updated. I see that the same typo, which did not my noble friend Lord Tope. The last of those amendments, come from me, has been repeated. I am sure that the if accepted by the Government, would go a long way Minister recognises that it should read “section 4(1)” 531 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 532

[BARONESS HAMWEE] noble Baroness about the way in which sustainability and not “section 41(1)”. The purposes should extend is embedded in the Bill and in the policy. I will come to not just to “economic development” but to “sustainable Clause 80 at the end of my speaking note: that is the economic development”. In having regard to issues of logical sequence. sustainability, each RDA should think more widely The integrated regional strategies that we are creating than its own region. In Committee, the Minister told are underpinned by the strong commitment to sustainable me that was not necessary but, increasingly, I see the development that runs through our planning policies paragraph in the 1998 Act as too limited. Thinking and that is fundamental to the way in which we has moved on. develop our ability to survive and grow as a nation The amendment uses the phrase, and an economy. I am pleased to say that we are “where it is relevant to its area”. acknowledged world leaders in our response to the It is possible that an RDA could come up with a mitigation of climate change. Sustainable growth scheme that is economically advantageous to its own cannot be achieved unless it is within regional area but would have an impact on another area. The environmental limits. We have been absolutely clear Government’s consultation on the proposals to reform about this in our definition of sustainable economic regional planning acknowledged that the RDAs would growth, both in the Bill and in the policy document need to undergo significant change in what they did that accompanies it. and how they operated. I agree with that, but I do not Clause 80 makes clear our commitment to sustainable think that the changes are adequately reflected in the development, which is also in the Planning and Bill. The RDAs will have to work across boundaries. Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 and the Planning Act At previous stages, I have mentioned carbon emissions 2008. I completely understand the intentions and and the wider climate change agenda, which are obvious. aspirations of the noble Baroness, and of environmental Since tabling the amendment, I have learnt from the stakeholders such as Natural England. However, it is CPRE that it carried out work in partnership with important to be clear, first, that the Bill must be read WWF and Friends of the Earth on the sustainability in the round. Individual clauses cannot be applied in of the regional strategies—in other words, the work isolation. Secondly, there are several further safeguards that has been undertaken so far. They noted that the to ensure that sustainability plays a key role in shaping regional spatial strategies and the regional economic the new regional strategies. strategies across all regions would have—do have, I I will run through the clauses briefly. Clause 67 suppose—a significant combined cumulative negative makes it clear that regional strategies must set out impact on some environmental resources. They tell me policies on sustainable economic growth, development that policies on air and road transport and on water and land use, and must include policies designed to resources were of particular concern. Each region contribute to climate change mitigation and adaptation. has developed strategies that it thinks have relatively Clause 73(2) makes it clear that regional strategies minor negative impacts, but, taken together, they have are required also to undergo a sustainability appraisal considerable significance. If our country is to move and a strategic environmental assessment under the towards sustainable development, the regions cannot Environmental Assessment of Plans and Programmes operate in isolation from one another. Regulations 2004. Secondly, the Government have confirmed that the Clause 71 makes it clear that the process for preparing economic prosperity boards can be formed from local regional strategies also requires full community authorities that work across regional boundaries. The involvement, including from statutory consultees such EPBs are likely to work with RDAs. However, in order as Natural England and the Environment Agency, to ensure that the RDAs can work with the new bodies which will use their scrutiny and expertise to ensure to enable sustainable economic growth, their purpose that the strategy takes full account of all sustainability must be altered in the way that I propose. considerations. Clause 72 ensures that strategies will The Regional Development Agencies Act 1998 required have to be tested by an independent panel which, in each agency to, the course of its examination, will take account of the sustainability appraisal and the strategic environmental “contribute to the achievement of sustainable development in the United Kingdom where it is relevant to its area to do so”. assessment, as well as of all the representations from stakeholders including NGOs. This suggests that there is no obligation to contribute to sustainable development unless it is relevant to its Clause 73 requires that, in preparing their strategies, own area. That in turn suggests that there may be responsible regional authorities will need to have regard instances where it is not relevant: that cannot be so. I to national policy and guidance. This means having beg to move. full regard to the principles set out in the cornerstone of the planning system—PPS1 on delivering sustainable development and its climate change supplement—and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, applying the policies in other planning policy statements Department for Communities and Local Government and guidance. (Baroness Andrews): My Lords, this is an important set of amendments. I am grateful for the opportunity presented by the noble Baroness to address some 8.45 pm issues raised by them. The amendments are detailed There are further checks about how sustainable and, as she said, intended to strengthen the requirement regional strategies are because under Clause 77 responsible for regional strategy to be based on sustainable regional authorities must prepare and publish a report development principles. I will start by reassuring the on the implementation of the strategy. That will include 533 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 534 an assessment of how well other bodies that work each RDA would have a duty to take actions contributing within the context of the regional strategies, including to sustainable development that is not relevant to its EPBs, are delivering on the commitments they contain, area. That makes its purpose and focus less credible including commitments on sustainable development. and realistic. The qualification enables sustainable It is significant that we are also starting work on a development to be relevant to a RDA area, but not national core sustainability framework, which we restricted geographically to it. That is the best legal announced in our SNR consultation document last balance to capture what we want the RDAs to do. It is year. When finalised, this framework will replace the a difficult balance, but the appropriate one. It would existing separate sustainable development framework not be sensible for RDAs to spend time and money on documents for each region and will be a key yardstick activities that might arguably contribute to sustainable against which all regional strategies can be appraised. development across the UK, but might have no relevance Therefore, we have a clear set of provisions that ensure to the region. that sustainability is fully embedded in the Bill and in Amendment 157F seeks the introduction of further the policies that will follow. wording into Clause 67(4) to ensure that the policies I turn to the specific amendments. Amendment prepared under subsections (2)(a) and (b) are consistent. 157C seeks to remove the reference to “growth” and to The noble Baroness made a strong case about the logic replace it with the words “development and regeneration”. of consistency. For reasons I have set out, I feel that My difficulty with this is that the word “growth” is the argument is partly made because the Bill achieves there for a purpose, not to indicate an overriding that. Any strategy which has inconsistent policies is imperative for growth at all costs, but because our not going to be sound. We have an independent regions must work towards stronger regional economies examination of strategies to test for soundness. Internal based on skills, jobs, investment, innovation and enterprise, consistency is an essential requirement and we can which all underpin sustainable economic growth. At a safely leave it to a panel of inspectors to test for time of serious challenges to our economy and growing soundness and consistency against the criteria contained unemployment, I would be very reluctant to indicate in the guidance. in any way that jobs are a secondary issue. Removing We also debated Amendment 157D in Committee. the word “growth”changes the focus of regional strategies, That would expressly require regional strategies to including the requirement to deliver the regional economic have policies concerning the protection and enhancement performance PSA that challenges regions to increase of the environment and social welfare of the region. their prosperity and enhance their competitiveness. Clause 71 already requires responsible regional We must ensure that regional strategies secure the authorities—the RDA and the leaders’ board—to have right outcome for future generations. Shying away regard to national policy when preparing a regional from the economic outcomes of the strategy is not the strategy and to guidance issued by the Secretary of way to do this. It can be done only within the context State. Given that the Secretary of State has published of sustainable development because, as I said in policy on the need for plans to protect the environment Committee several times, I believe that the two are and promote sustainable communities, this amendment interdependent. would not have much practical effect. I understand the I know that the noble Baroness is very serious concern to promote sustainable development and about Amendment 165A, which would require the protection of the environment. They are fundamental RDAs, as a key purpose, to further sustainable economic to our policies on plan-making and development development instead of economic development. I really management. We have been explicit that they form do understand the concerns here, but let me reassure part of our expectation of the outcome of the strategy the noble Baroness that Section 4(1)(e) already gives because the published definition of sustainable economic the RDAs a duty to contribute to the achievement of growth is growth that can be sustained and is within sustainable development alongside their economic environmental limits but also enhances the environment development duty. The Bill provides for the RDAs to and social welfare. They certainly form part of our exercise their functions in relation to the regional policy expectations in relation to the development and strategy for the region with the objective of contributing use of land and policies designed to contribute to the to sustainable development—that is under Clause 80—and mitigation or adaptation of climate change. requires regional strategies to have policies in relation Amendment 164K seeks the introduction of a new to sustainable economic growth—under Clause 67—so paragraph under Clause 77(3), requiring the regional the safeguards are there. strategy monitoring report to demonstrate how the As the noble Baroness said, the amendment also implementation plan will deliver sustainable growth removes the words, by using a full set of indicators. It is not the purpose of “where it is relevant to its area to do so”, the monitoring report to demonstrate how the in Section 4(1)(e) of the RDA Act. As she said, that implementation plan delivers the strategy. That is the would increase the scope of an RDA’s sustainable role of the implementation plan itself under Clause 77(1), development purpose so that the purpose would be to which, as we have said, focuses on how the outcomes contribute to sustainable development everywhere else will be achieved and how the strategy will be implemented. in the UK as well as in its own area. This issue has The purpose of the report is to provide an annual been well debated by both Houses on several occasions. update on how effective the regional strategy has been I understand the noble Baroness’s argument, which in delivering its vision. she made very powerfully, but if we remove from the It is the role of the sustainability appraisal report RDA legislation the phrase, under Clause 73(2) to test how sustainable the strategy “where it is relevant to its area to do so”, is. I can reassure noble Lords that we intend to take 535 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 536

[BARONESS ANDREWS] too narrow an approach from the RDAs. I recognise forward, and if necessary develop further, the core set that different priorities between different government of output indicators which we published in revised departments may have something to do with the way form in July 2008. They provide clarity on what regional in which RDAs are promoted and supported. spatial strategies should report on in their annual On the Minister’s interpretation of my amendment, monitoring reports. I recognise the concern raised in I do not agree that requiring an RDA to look beyond Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that the its own area would have the adverse effect described. new regional arrangements will skew the focus of local Nevertheless, I dare say that that is a debate that we development frameworks and local planning decision- will have again on another day on another Bill. I am making towards economic growth outcomes at the grateful for the Minister’s approach to the last of my cost of sustainable development. The noble Baroness amendments in the group. When she said that she was referred to her anxiety in general, so it is right that I going to accept my amendment, I wondered how she should provide assurance on that point. would accept it but bring it back as hers. I now see that Local Authorities remain local planning authorities. it will come back a little further on in the Bill and will They will not lose their planning powers; they will not have to be in a different place, but that is good enough be faced with a change in either the principles which for me. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. underpin the system or their responsibilities under this Bill. They will continue to be subject to legal requirements Amendment 157C withdrawn. regarding sustainable development, sustainability appraisal Amendments 157D to 157F not moved. and, like regional strategies, they will need to have regard to national policy in preparing their policies 9pm and when making planning decisions. Local plans will still need to be in general conformity with regional Amendment 157G strategies, and that will be for the planning inspectorate— those expert independent adjudicators—to determine Moved by Baroness Andrews and not for the responsible regional authorities. Having 157G: Clause 67, page 50, line 20, leave out paragraphs (a) and gone through that in some detail, I hope I have provided (b) and insert— some assurance. “(a) the regional spatial strategy for the region subsisting My pièce de résistance is Clause 80. I accept the immediately before that day, and case put by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that (b) the regional economic strategy for the region subsisting there is a good chance that this might be overlooked immediately before that day.” because of the position it occupies at the end of this Baroness Andrews: My Lords, the amendments that part of the Bill. It is there because it relates to the we are considering, in this group and in a later group, exercise of all functions of the responsible regional relate to the powers of the Secretary of State, which authorities and the Secretary of State as regards regional we debated thoroughly in Committee. In speaking to strategy and bodies that are described only from my Amendments 157G and 164G, I shall have to Clause 67 onwards. So in drafting terms it follows address the Conservative amendments, although not logically from the description of those functions and the others in the group, because they will be automatically bodies. I understand the force of the argument that it addressed by my amendments. needs to be made more visible, more salient and more The group relates to two distinct matters: first, significant. Therefore I am sympathetic to Amendment Clause 67(6) and the role of the Secretary of State in 166A which has the effect of moving the clause to the defining what constitutes the regional strategy on the front end of the regional strategy clauses, flagging up day that the legislation comes into effect; and, secondly, in lights the significance of that. I will therefore table Clause 74 and the process for approving any revision an amendment at Third Reading to move Clause 80 to to regional strategy.In Committee, noble Lords expressed after Clause 69, ensuring that it follows the key clauses concern about the extent to which the Bill provides for on regional strategy, Clause 67, and Clauses 68 and the Secretary of State’s role and powers in relation to 69, which relate to the bodies which implement them. regional strategy. As I explained then, there is nothing I hope that even though the beginning of that new in the powers provided in the Bill other than those rather long speaking note was disappointing, I made attached to the leaders’ board, which is, of course, a up for it in the flourish of the final few seconds. new entity. They are essentially the same powers, in broad terms, as exist in the Planning and Compulsory Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am particularly Purchase Act 2004. They are minimal powers, which grateful for the final flourish, as the Minister put it, are included to deal with any risks that might arise. As and for the care with which she answered on the we discussed in Committee, the first risk is that there amendments. We do not regard jobs in any way as could be disagreement between the different parties in secondary. Our take on the Bill is to be sure that the region, such that the Government might be required short-termism does not skew the architecture, a term to arbitrate. The second risk is that the regional strategy quite often used by the Minister. If you skew the does not reflect national imperatives. architecture, the building might fall down, so perhaps It seems that we agree on the principle that the Bill it is not a bad analogy. needs to be abundantly clear about the role of the On RDAs, my concern at the moment is to go Secretary of State and to achieve the right balance further than the Bill; I am sure that the Minister between different parties in strategy making and delivery. recognises that. I understand her argument as it relates I would not want there to be any confusion over the to the Bill but I am still concerned about what I see as way in which those powers are distributed. In that 537 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 538 context, I have looked afresh at the powers that the The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux): Bill provides for the Secretary of State and at the My Lords, if Amendment 157G is agreed to, I cannot provisions that particularly exercised noble Lords. I call Amendments 158 or 159 due to pre-emption. am now proposing to amend the Bill both in relation to the initial strategy and in relation to the process of Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I thank the Minister approving revisions to the strategy. for her comments. We recognise that the Government have gone some way with their amendment and we are On the initial strategy and Clause 67(7), as I said in grateful for that. That is encouraging and it is the Committee, we want a smooth transition to the new second time today that they have removed some of the arrangements. I intend that the regional spatial strategy powers of the Secretary of State along the lines that and the regional economic strategy should in combination we wanted. I hope that there might be further movement form the regional strategy on commencement of the as we go through the legislation. We argued throughout legislation. In Committee, we debated a series of the Committee that that should be so. amendments on the provision and now we have I am still a little unclear about what elements of the Amendments 158 and 159 in the names of the noble existing strategies we are talking about. I gathered Baroness, Lady Warsi, and the noble Lord, Lord from the Minister that the Secretary of State would Hanningfield. They would give the responsible regional not look at RDAs’ individual strategies where they do authorities instead of the Secretary of State the power not affect national policy and that they would be able to specify how much of the existing regional spatial to decide what they took forward. I give noble Lords and economic strategies would form the regional strategy an example. Since this legislation was written and on commencement. thought about, there have been dramatic events and changes in the way in which development is taking I accept the principle that the Secretary of State place. Only this morning, I was looking at a large should not be given responsibility for determining development in north Essex that has collapsed because how much of existing strategies should form the regional the developers cannot afford the Section 106 agreements strategy on commencement. I cannot accept that it that they entered into because of the collapse in the makes sense, however, for such responsibility to be price of the land. They want local authorities to put in given to another party, given the ensuing uncertainty some of the infrastructure that would have come out and the risk of inconsistent decision-making. We of the Section 106 agreements. Therefore, whatever explored that in Committee. We have therefore tabled strategy the Secretary of State or the RDA has, a lot of Amendment 157G, which removes the concept and local decisions will have to be made. We are talking the process involved in a transitional arrangement. We about 15 years for a development that was going to are proposing instead that it should be automatic and take place in the next three. that, on commencement, the regional strategy would simply consist of the RES and the spatial strategies The planning strategies in this legislation will be that subsist on that day. That is a much more sensible very much dependent on the economic situation in the outcome. It reduces the uncertainty, removes unnecessary next few years. Some of them are almost irrelevant for procedure and recognises that considerable work has the moment; they might be more relevant in five years. already gone into aligning the regional economic and It is very difficult to see how we are going to build spatial strategies such that we consider the risk of some of the houses that are planned for. Therefore, significant contradictions between them to be minimal. whatever the Secretary of State says, a lot of local This approach would also deal with the concerns at decisions will have to be made. I would like to see more the heart of Amendments 158 and 159, which would of that in the legislation; I shall come back to that in a remove the Secretary of State from the process. moment. However, I am grateful to the Minister. She has moved in our direction and clarified that the We have also taken a fresh look at the process for Secretary of State will not be as involved as we first approving revisions to regional strategy with a view to feared. None the less, I would like to know a little ensuring the right balance. The Secretary of State more about how she sees the RDAs developing the retains responsibility for approving the strategy but regional strategy from day one under their own auspices. the end product is jointly owned by the responsible regional authorities. Our Amendment 164G takes up Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, we have three the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, amendments in this group, Amendments 164C, 164E in Committee. I am sorry that he is not in his place, as and 164H. On Amendment 164G, I think that my I would have liked to have seen his delight as we noble friend Lord Greaves would probably say that he accepted this amendment. He proposed to remove the is glad to see the Government accepting sensible requirement for the Secretary of State to publish the propositions and wishes that they would do more approved strategy and to replace it with a requirement of it. for responsible regional authorities to publish the Clause 74, to which our amendments relate, deals approved strategy.That means that the regional authorities with the approval of revision by the Secretary of State. will publish the approved strategy. It does not take The amendments would ensure that any modifications away the Secretary of State’s responsibility for approving to the draft revision of a regional strategy proposed by the final version but it gives the regional authorities a the Secretary of State were published for consultation clear responsibility for publishing the final approved so that any member of the public could make version. That confirms the leadership role that they representations about the changes, with the views being have in drafting the strategy. I trust that both the considered by the Secretary of State before the revision amendments will meet with noble Lords’ approval. was finalised and published. 539 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 540

[BARONESS HAMWEE] I may not be able to answer the point raised by the As the Bill stands, the Secretary of State has the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, in exactly the context right to determine whom to consult. This exclusive in which he raised it. He is absolutely right that we are discretion contrasts with the current process for the in a very dynamic situation, and it is clear that the revision of the regional spatial strategy. Our first landscape over the next few years is going to look very amendment would give the right to anyone who different, whether we are talking about management wished it to be consulted. Draft revisions of a regional of resources or the trajectory of housing starts. Clearly, strategy would be developed by the regional development our regional spatial strategies will have to be dynamic. agencies and the leaders’ boards in consultation with We are looking at revisions to some strategies at the stakeholders—that horrible word—and local communities. moment as more demographic information comes online. It is important that those who live and work in a The important point about the amendment is that, region are able to feed in to the development of the instead of having what we originally proposed—the strategy, hence the second amendment. concept of a transitional arrangement—we will just If, under the process for revising a regional spatial have the regional spatial strategy in its present status strategy set out in the current legislation, the 2004 Act, and condition and the regional economic strategy. the Secretary of State proposes to make changes to the Together they will form the regional strategy on the draft revision, those changes have to be published for day of commencement. There will not be any waiting public consultation. It seems to us that, if the Secretary for further changes or negotiation of accommodation— of State decides to modify the strategy at this stage in that will be the starting point. The noble Lord was the process, the changes should be published for absolutely right that the delivery of our strategy will consultation, so that views can be given and taken into be affected by local economic realities. It is the combination consideration, as is consistent with the process for of evidence, intelligence and forecasting that comes developing regional spatial strategies. out of the RES and the RSS which forms the framework for development. In local decisions, of course, economic Baroness Andrews: My Lords, these amendments conditions are always a material consideration. There cover a number of detailed aspects of the process for will be a feed-through into local decision-making as approving revisions to regional strategy, and I can well. I am very happy to write to the noble Lord if he understand the intentions behind them. Noble Lords would like some more detail on how we see that want to strengthen the consultation requirements on process working. the Secretary of State before approving or revising the draft strategy. It is absolutely not our intention to Amendment 157G agreed. limit the Secretary of State’s consultation in any way. Amendment 164C would make it explicit that the Amendments 158 and 159 not moved. Secretary of State must publish a draft revision of a regional strategy for consultation and would delete 9.15 pm the current provision for the Secretary of State to, “consult such persons (if any) as the Secretary of State considers Amendment 159A appropriate.” Clause74(3) already requires the Secretary of State to Moved by Lord Hanningfield engage in consultation which would automatically 159A: Clause 67, leave out Clause 67 include publishing a document for consultation, which would obviously go as wide as possible. Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I do not really expect Amendment 164E would insert into Clause 74(3) a the Government to accept this amendment, but I want provision that “any person” can make representations to talk to it. We talked a lot about regional strategies, on the proposed changes. Clause 74(4) already makes their success and how they are going to happen or not it clear that any person can make representations and going to happen, and I am sure that we will talk more the Secretary of State must have regard to those about leaders’ boards and other things. Our contention representations. That also takes care, in part, of is that regional strategies are not successful, do not Amendment 164C. work and that we would do better without them. Amendment 164H would insert an explicit requirement When the Government published their proposals into Clause 74(5) for the Secretary of State to set out for this legislation, I thought that something might be reasons for making any changes to the draft strategy happening that one could begin to agree with. We revision submitted by the responsible regional authorities. talked about economic assessments and EPBs, which We have had the regional spatial strategy process for are sub-regional, as well as MAAs and the development some time now; it is a well established and welcome of LAAs, which everyone can support because their practice for the Secretary of State to set out the local authorities are working together for the best for reasons for making further changes to strategy revisions. that area, or groups of areas. They could all be successful It is done in some detail so that everyone can see why because there are people on the ground who know the the Secretary of State is recommending a different problems. As long as they are on EPBs and are mostly approach. It seems to me that there is little substantive elected rather than appointed members, all three are difference between what the noble Baroness is proposing recipes for success. and the existing provisions. The important principle, The noble Lord, Lord Smith, has talked about the on which we are absolutely agreed, is that there should north-west, and I accept that in some places it works be wide public consultation on the final draft of the differently. But that is my argument; the Government’s strategy. We will make sure in guidance that that will whole approach should have been more flexible. Flexibility be as clear a commitment as possible. and different arrangements for different places would 541 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 542 have delivered better results, because the country is technicalities support them, I do not understand the very varied. In the east and the south-east, the regional technicalities, so I do not know whether we are going strategies that we have had so far have not worked at back to structure plans, or what. all; they have resulted in a lot of arguments, with one As I understand it, the argument of the noble Lord area arguing against another and no decisions or is that there should be no strategy at a regional level. conclusions being made about anything, even after On these Benches, we take the view that what the four or five years. No real conclusions have been Government have put in place is too over the ears—too reached and no real sites have been developed in the heavy, or too top down. We would much prefer a less south-east or the east, which contains 20 million people—a heavy or rigid model than that, but we believe that great chunk of our country. there is a need for strategic work above the district As I have said several times during the passage of level. That is where the noble Lord would leave us in this legislation, I have spent most of my life in local some places, so I have some difficulty in following him government trying to get things to work and things to on this. happen. I want to see housing and the economy improving, and a more flexible approach would have been much Baroness Andrews: My Lords, this amendment by better. The Government have missed a tremendous the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, seeks to remove opportunity here in developing that. I know that with Clause 67, on regional strategy preparation. I take the legislation it is difficult to be flexible, but I would have point that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has just liked to see some attempt to do that. made: without Clause 67, the effect is that Part 5 of The House of Commons Business and Enterprise the Bill cannot be implemented, so the amendment is Committee published a report a couple of weeks ago clearly significant. When we debated this issue in on RDAs and this Bill. Some interesting, revealing Committee, I resisted it strongly. I completely respect and illuminating evidence was given to the inquiry, the experience and commitment of the noble Lord— which has produced a report. Paragraph 89 says: certainly his commitment to making sub-regional “Many witnesses raised the lack of RDAs’ skills in relation to arrangements work, and to being highly innovative in spatial planning. RDAs stated that they were already addressing his own area—but I must disagree with him about the this shortage and would both inherit some staff from regional assemblies and recruit new staff”. need for a spatial strategy that occupies the regional space. That does not sound very encouraging to me, when many local authorities, whether at unitary, district or In Committee I spoke at some length about the role county level, have very good planning officers and the and scope of regional strategies and why I believe that capacity to do more of that work. We were defeated a regional perspective and policy capacity will be needed on an amendment a little while ago that might have even more in future, in the post-recession world. That involved different tiers of authorities in creating more world may well be faced—the noble Lord has already of the planning requirements. The committee said indicated that he understands this—with radical differences other things about this legislation, which have not in location, in terms of jobs, regeneration, skills and been addressed at all in our debates. housing, and with the extraordinary challenge of building a low-carbon economy. I do not want to reiterate I know that the Government will not agree with this those arguments, but I must briefly say why we need amendment, but it is not too late to have a bit more this part of the Bill and why the noble Lord is quite flexibility in this legislation. It would have helped if right that we cannot accept his amendment. the EPBs had more power, and perhaps that is the future. If there is a change of government in the This country has had regional strategy-making not-too-distant future, EPBs could become much more provision in various guises for decades, because successive responsible bodies, because they are at a sub-regional Governments have recognised that there are strategic and more local level. They might get local authorities issues that can only be addressed at the right spatial to work together to deliver what we all want to see. I level, whether that is national, regional, sub-regional beg to move. or local. We are a country of regions, just like other European countries. Our regions have different strengths, demographics, histories and geographies, and they Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am surprised to face different challenges on resources, land use, housing hear the noble Lord promoting EPBs after the debates and regeneration, and on employment and natural that we had in Committee. Perhaps it is all comparative. environments. Each of our regions could put forward I am puzzled by this amendment, because it removes a different profile; each presents a different contribution Clause 67 alone. The noble Lord has not tabled to the future of the UK, the European and the world amendments to remove any of the subsequent clauses economies; and each faces different challenges in how that follow on from this, on the review of regional to build aspirations, skills, jobs and enterprises, and strategy in Clause 70, and so on, or Clause 82, which how to deliver sustainable growth. brings in Schedule 5 and repeals, including among Finding a solution to those challenges—although others the repeal of the first 12 sections of the 2004 the solution will differ and sometimes be more difficult legislation—the regional spatial strategy clauses. I am in different regions—can be effectively sought only at not sure whether the noble Lord is intending to revert the right spatial level. Working at a regional level to to the 2004 situation or to the pre-2004 situation. As link across higher education, for example, to plan for and when he replies, he can deal with that and, perhaps, social cohesion, to create knowledge-based jobs, to be a little clearer about the technical position, if I may reduce travel-to-work times and to target the right put it that way. Although I absolutely take his point investment and regeneration, are all challenges common that one should deal with realities and then make the to all regions. To compete with global challenges 543 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy 544

[BARONESS ANDREWS] fears raised by noble Lords opposite, this will increase means a level of analysis and planning that works with the amount of local involvement in the preparation of local authorities but opens up regional possibilities as regional strategies because of the considerable flexibility well. for local authorities to identify the priorities they feel More than ever, we need a regional perspective and able to tackle at local or sub-regional level, and to regional opportunities. The creation of a single regional identify, through active participation in the leaders’ strategy is a crucial tool to help strengthen our local boards, what they consider to be regional priorities. and regional economies in a sustainable way. If every The local authorities are in the driving seat of those local authority had to prepare its own strategy in proposals. We have talked about the importance of isolation, it would be a recipe for confusion and consultation and stakeholder engagement. The proposals uncertainty. It is the opposite of what business and do not centralise power because—after extensive communities want. They want certainty, transparency consultation, not least with the local authorities and leadership. That is why our response to the themselves—we are confident that the balance is right consultation showed near universal support for the for a genuinely equal partnership, a collaborative approach principles of a single regional strategy. between the RDAs and the local authorities. The new strategies we are legislating for in the Bill We have also made it clear that there are improved will help support and grow our regional and local requirements to consult and engage communities and economies in a particularly potent way. The current stakeholders with the process of independent testing system of separate strategies has led to fragmentation of the regional strategy though an improved examination of both the number and range of strategies and in public. Where the legislation provides for the Secretary organisations at the regional level. of State to intervene, this intervention is limited. Where there are Secretary of State’s powers, they are either I took the liberty of taking some advice from the not new or they are limited in scope. north-west as it moves towards its own analysis and I understand that the noble Lord has a deep-seated configuration of its regional strategy. I am very grateful opposition to what we are doing. However, our proposals to be able to quote from its most recent document, are widely supported by those whose job it is both to Principles and Issues Paper, as I think that it is a very anticipate and to manage the future in practical ways. compelling argument. It states: That came out in the consultation with a strong degree “We … know that there will be increasing and sometimes of consensus across the private and public sectors. The competing, land-use pressures on the countryside, urban fringe, joint statement from the chief executives from the open spaces and brownfield land. All will be needed to deliver economic growth, infrastructure, housing, energy, adaption to RDAs and the LGA, which was published last year, increased flood risk and climate change, recreation, less intensive welcomed the strengthened role for local government farming, food, and a valued landscape … All these issues mean in economic development and the introduction of a that we must ask ourselves fundamental questions about how our single regional strategy. As we have debated on a economy and society work. We will need to be radical in considering previous amendment, we do not want regional strategies how we can integrate environmental, economic and social issues that promote economic growth at all costs without full to achieve economic prosperity without unsustainable use of resources. We will need to address what sustainable models of and proper regard and testing of whether they follow business look like post recession, where the jobs of the future will sustainable development principles. come from and any fundamental long term changes in the world I understand that we will probably not agree on the economy”. need for a regional dimension for policy. However, we The north-west has set out how it sees that vision genuinely believe that a single integrated strategy is unfolding for its region. That means an integrated more crucial given our economic circumstances and vision for 20 years or so—a strategic framework—bringing how we will have to plan for the future. It will provide together the spatial elements of policy on land use, a better mechanism to address the challenges and planning, demographic and housing needs, which have opportunities facing all our regions and will put in been expressed so far in the regional spatial strategies. place important preconditions for recovery in a sustainable That has to be brought together with the evidence and way. planning for jobs, investment and enterprise, which has been held by the regional economic strategy. It is Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I thank the Minister not so much an alignment of strategy, whether it is for that answer. It was quite long and I could give as alignment in evidence or policy, as a way of expressing long a reply with detailed arguments on all her points. those elements together to get the right results in the I agree with virtually everything that she said towards use of natural resources, planning for urban and rural the end, but I totally disagree that a regional strategy areas and housing, locating suitable transport, jobs delivers it. Instead, we need a strategy worked out by and business. It is the only way we can hope to meet authorities working together with a common aim and our greenhouse gas targets and our budgets and to purpose. identify the right regional parties and local interests In the south-east, where the authorities have no which ensure that we have a strong delivery focus. common identity and the distances are so great, this Therefore, in all those new strategies, we are looking would be unworkable. Most regions in Europe have for more than an alignment of evidence or policy; we about 1.5 million people. We have established artificial are looking for a framework which will provide a more regions in this country, but European regions are streamlined and timely process, with a better balance historical and there are some very small ones. There of priorities and local interests and a clear alignment are some big ones in Germany and Spain, but generally between economic and spatial planning with a strong regions throughout Europe are much smaller and delivery focus. We also believe that, contrary to the therefore people in them have a greater ability to work 545 Local Democracy[23 MARCH 2009] Local Democracy 546 together. I am pleased that the north-west is so successful Mayhew of Twysden, L. Onslow, E. Morris of Bolton, B. [Teller] but, if we asked detailed questions of people in Cumbria, Palmer, L. I am not sure that they would totally agree all the time. Neville-Jones, B. O’Cathain, B. Taylor of Holbeach, L. There are differences. After many years, what we want is some system that will work. To answer the point raised by the noble NOT CONTENTS Baroness, Lady Hamwee, one would not want to go Acton, L. Judd, L. back to the position pre-2004. A development from Adams of Craigielea, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Addington, L. Layard, L. that would be bottom-up and one would not have the Andrews, B. Lee of Trafford, L. same type of plans that one had in 2004. On the sorts Archer of Sandwell, L. Leitch, L. of arguments that we have all been making about how Bach, L. Levy, L. you take the local government frameworks through to Bassam of Brighton, L. Lofthouse of Pontefract, L. a county level and then through to a sub-regional [Teller] Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Bernstein of Craigweil, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. level, you would get some results on both economic Bilston, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. and planning strategies. However, there will be no Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Maddock, B. results from this new legislation. B. Masham of Ilton, B. Borrie, L. Maxton, L. Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, the noble Lord says Bradley, L. Meacher, B. that we would not quite go back to where I think we Brett, L. Mitchell, L. would go back to if his amendment were carried. Can Brookman, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Burnett, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. he explain to the House how we would get to this Carter of Coles, L. Neuberger, B. utopia without more than just this amendment? Cotter, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Craig of Radley, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Lord Hanningfield: My Lords, I agree. Certainly, if Crawley, B. Pendry, L. the noble Baroness would like, we can table a whole Davies of Coity, L. Pitkeathley, B. series of amendments that would make this work. The Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller] Puttnam, L. pre-2004 position would need rethinking because the Desai, L. Quin, B. world has changed a lot, but it was much more local. I Dixon, L. Radice, L. D’Souza, B. Razzall, L. would like to see the development of a much more Dubs, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. bottom-up approach. We did not table a lot more Elder, L. Rennard, L. amendments, because we did not want to detain the Elystan-Morgan, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. House for a long while. If anyone wanted a lot more Evans of Parkside, L. Rosser, L. detail about what might happen if there were ever a Falconer of Thoroton, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Falkland, V. Sawyer, L. Conservative Government, they could read the Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Scott of Needham Market, B. Conservative Green Paper on local government. Fearn, L. Sewel, L. Let us get back to this issue. I accept the noble Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. Baroness’s integrity on this and I think that she really Gale, B. Shutt of Greetland, L. believes it will work. It might work in some places, but Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Simon, V. Gilbert, L. Smith of Leigh, L. it will not work in a lot of places. We are creating a Golding, B. Snape, L. piece of legislation, like we did four years ago, which Hamwee, B. Soley, L. someone will have to redo in two or three years’ time, Harris of Haringey, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. because it will not work on the scale that has been Hart of Chilton, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. suggested. I do not think that we will get very far Haskel, L. Thornton, B. Haworth, L. Tope, L. today, but I should test the opinion of the House to Hollis of Heigham, B. Tunnicliffe, L. make certain that it is on the record. Hoyle, L. Vadera, B. Hughes of Woodside, L. Warner, L. 9.35 pm Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Division on Amendment 159A Jay of Paddington, B. West of Spithead, L. Jones, L. Whitaker, B. Contents 18; Not-Contents 102. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Whitty, L. Jordan, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Amendment 159A disagreed. Division No. 3 Clause 68: Leaders’ Boards

CONTENTS Amendments 160 to 160B not moved. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Dixon-Smith, L. Attlee, E. Glentoran, L. Consideration on Report adjourned. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Hanningfield, L. L. Luke, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Lyell, L. House adjourned at 9.45 pm. Cope of Berkeley, L. Marlesford, L.

GC 149 Arrangement of Business[23 MARCH 2009] Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009 GC 150

I turn to the guardian’s allowance orders. These will Grand Committee increase in line with prices to £14.10 per week from April 2009. We normally debate these orders in Monday, 23 March 2009. conjunction with the child benefit orders. However, as the Committee will be aware, we debated these increases before Christmas, as the Government brought forward Arrangement of Business their commitment to increase child benefit to come Announcement into effect in January 2009, rather than in April. A family with two children will gain £24 from bringing 3.30 pm forward the increase to child benefit. With the increases introduced by these instruments, The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn): we will be delivering even more support next year. We I will start with the procedural statement. Before the remain committed to the Government’s goals on child Minister moves that the first statutory instrument be poverty, and tax credits will remain a key part of this. considered, I remind noble Lords that in the case of As a result of all changes to the personal tax and each statutory instrument, the Motion before the benefit system since 1997, families with children in the Committee is that the Committee do consider the poorest fifth of the population will be £4,400 a year statutory instrument in question. I make it clear that better off. I commend these regulations and orders to the Motion to approve the statutory instrument will the Committee. be moved in the Chamber in the usual way. Baroness Noakes: I thank the Minister for introducing Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009 the orders, which we look forward to each year. The orders are not themselves controversial, but as the Considered in Grand Committee Minister knows, he never gets away with quite an easy Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham ride as finishing at that point. I have three issues to raise with him. That the Grand Committee do report to the First, there is uprating for inflation. I am well aware House that it has considered the Tax Credits Up-rating that tax credits are not uprated by inflation but there is Regulations 2009. a requirement for the Treasury to review tax credits Relevant Document: 7th Report from the Joint each year in line with the general level of prices and to Committee on Statutory Instruments publish the result of that review, which it has done. The Treasury decides which general level of prices to use; I understand that it uses the RPI—at least, it has Lord Davies of Oldham: I shall speak also to the used 5 per cent in its calculations in the document Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Order 2009 and the attached to the Explanatory Memorandum. Perhaps Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating (Northern Ireland) the Minister will confirm that. Order 2009. With social security benefits that are income related, Tax credits, together with child benefit, deliver financial the Treasury uses the Rossi index; generally, it is lower support to the vast majority of families with children than the RPI but last year it was higher. Tax credits in the UK and are vital in our commitment to tackle are in effect income-related benefits. Why does the child poverty. I am pleased to introduce these regulations Treasury use the RPI rather than Rossi as its baseline and orders, which increase certain elements and thresholds for general prices; what is the logic of that? Linked to of tax credits and raise the guardian’s allowance. In that, will the Minister comment on deflation? Tomorrow, my view, the regulations and orders are compatible we expect the RPI to go negative; doubtless Rossi will with the European Convention on Human Rights. follow in due course. I do not ask the Minister to First, I turn to the Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations forecast the path of the RPI. Most commentators 2009. Tax credits play a major role in ensuring that believe that when we get round to this autumn’s numbers, work pays and in tackling child poverty. Overall, nearly which will be used to drive a number of benefits, we 6 million families containing nearly 10 million children will have a fall of as much as 4 or 5 per cent in the level are benefiting from tax credits. These regulations bring of the RPI. Will the Minister set out the Government’s forward the Government’s commitment to increase policy to items such as tax credits when we hit a period the child element of the child tax credit by £25 above of falling prices? Will they leave tax credits the same in indexation in April 2010 to April 2009. Added to the nominal terms, which would imply a significant real existing commitment to uprate the child tax credit, increase, or will they consider reducing the nominal this means that the child element will therefore increase amount to recognise the fall in price level? by £75 above indexation to £2,235 from April 2009. The second issue concerns the impact of tax credits Since its introduction in April 2003, this element will on the Government’s child poverty targets—we have have increased by £790, benefiting 7.2 million children. debated that and the Minister referred to it. When the From April 2009, a family with two children, with a tax credit changes were announced in the last PBR, it single earner working full-time on the minimum wage, was claimed that there was no additional contribution will receive around £10 extra in tax credits per week to the child poverty targets because the reduction in compared to the previous year. Other rates and thresholds the number of children in poverty was measured from are also increased by these regulations. The disabled the 2007 Budget and did not change between the Budget element of child tax credit and also most of the other of 2008 and the PBR of 2008. The PBR was a sort of WTC elements increase in line with prices. standstill in terms of child poverty. The Government GC 151 Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009[LORDS] Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009 GC 152

[BARONESS NOAKES] In particular, what will happen next year to these have reduced the numbers since 1997 but the latest upratings? For what it is worth, my central forecast is figures for 2006-07 showed an increase in the number that money GDP over the next year will fall by 10 per of children in poverty and the signs are that the latest cent; that is, a 5 per cent real fall in economic activity statistics will show further rises. The Government’s and a 5 per cent fall in prices. As the noble Baroness target was to have lifted 1.7 million children out of said, it is very much common ground among all serious poverty by 2010 with an intermediate milestone of commentators that we are looking at a period of 850,000 by 2004. They have lifted to date—or to the falling prices. Can we have a categorical assurance that latest date for which statistics are available—only 600,000: however fast prices fall over the next year, benefits will they missed the 2004 milestone and most people believe not be cut? that they will miss the 2010 target by a mile. As regards whether or not the policy instrument is The latest research from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation working, do the Government not see that tax credits and the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows that the are not getting through to the people who need them? number of children in poverty with parents in work They are far too complex, and there is too much error has risen as a percentage of all children in poverty and and fraud. In addition, too much is going to people that more than half of all children in poverty are now who do not need them at all, particularly to those who in families with working parents. That suggests that are well up the income scale with family incomes of as the tax credit programme as opposed to the benefits much as £50,000 a year. Is that really a priority for system is failing to have any real impact on the child public expenditure in today’s recession and these difficult poverty figures. It also shows that the Government economic times? have failed to create an environment in which work Clearly, the Government are failing abysmally on lifts families out of poverty. We firmly believe that in the child poverty target. Does the Minister recognise—the the long run work is the only viable route out of noble Baroness did not mention this—that this is a poverty and we thought that the Government shared relative target? The Government have failed partly thatview.However,thestatisticssuggestthattheGovernment’s because of the rapid increase, under them, of incomes policies are running in the opposite direction. at the top end of the income scale. When will the Will the Minister update the Committee on the Government do something about excessive greed and Government’s approach to halving child poverty by rapidly rising incomes at the top? Unlike the Conservatives, 2010? That target does not look achievable. The Joseph we on these Benches do not think that giving tax Rowntree Foundation and the Institute for Fiscal Studies breaks for dead double millionaires through inheritance calculated recently that, using benefits or tax credits tax is either affordable or sensible in a recession. That alone, it will cost £4.2 billion to achieve the 2010 sort of policy will only make the achievement of the target. I do not think we will be kidding ourselves that, child poverty target much harder. It is a relative target, in the context of the shaky finances we find in our which depends on relative incomes. Do the Government country, the Government could even contemplate that recognise and will they face up to that fact? scale of redistribution. So what will they do? My third topic is the role of the Social Security Lord Jones: I thank my noble friend for his cogent Advisory Committee. I was pleased to see that during and helpful explanation of the regulations. Hard-pressed last year, the Treasury gave up its obstinate refusal to families really do need every possible help. The allow the SSAC to report publicly on its work on tax Government have done good things for families and I credits. Doubtless, that has something to do with the should like them to have greater credit. Paragraph 10.2 change of Chancellor, but, whatever the reason, the of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to a considerable decision is welcome. Somewhat later than expected, a sum, which must be important to families in a time of revised memorandum of understanding was entered serious recession and domestic financial strain. So into in January of this year. The SSAC’s reports on tax today’s news has to be welcomed. Can the Minister credits should now be made publicly, but we do not indicate by how much cash the payment has been have a report before us to assist in our consideration of increased since the payments were introduced some these orders. Was the SSAC given those draft orders years ago? for comment and has it raised any issues? If so, why is In paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum there no report in the public domain? on the guardian’s allowance, the uprating is indicated. Again, will the Minister state what the original first-time Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: Like those of the payment was? This allowance seems to be very helpful noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, our questions and indeed to families, particularly to children. I am looking comments focus on the appropriate index for uprating to see by how much Her Majesty’s Government have and the outlook for inflation on the one hand and the increased the benefit since it was introduced, because affordability and complexity of child credits on the the credit and the allowances are very important in other. On the indices, people perhaps do not realise today’s circumstances. that retail prices are already clearly falling. Because we are mesmerised in this country by looking just at the 3.45 pm 12-month rate, unlike a lot of professionals in the market who look at all sorts of indices including Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to noble three-month rolling figures, the retail price index has Lords who have spoken on the order for the succinct already fallen by 3.8 per cent over the past four months way in which they presented their enormous questions. and clearly has a good deal further to fall. Deflation I shall be involved in a rather less succinct reply if I am has well and truly arrived. not careful, although I am not sure that the noble GC 153 Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009[23 MARCH 2009] Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009 GC 154

Baroness is really inviting me to range over the full we need to take stock of the very significantly changed philosophy behind tax credits and cover every issue financial and economic position. Where I think she is since their introduction. I seek to concentrate primarily seeking a great deal of the Committee is in asking me on the very interesting questions which were raised. At to speculate on the implications of a negative retail the same time, I hope to be sufficiently broad in my price index. Not that I am not tempted to do so, but answer to meet both her points and those made by the time is a wonderful thing and we do not have it in noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott. If I might say so, he unlimited quantities. My noble friend is sitting eagerly invited me to embark on even wider consideration. I beside me, ready to introduce the next debate. There am not sure that this is the place to debate the proposals are other items on the agenda today, and not just the on inheritance tax, but a passing reference might be in Treasury is to have the chance to display its constructive order. I hope that at the end of that I will have wares on behalf of the Government. convinced my noble friend Lord Jones of the value of More important is that the noble Baroness’s question what we sought to achieve. is fundamentally important. It involves Budget judgments On the question of which index we use, tax credits for which we have to wait only a matter of three to are part of the tax system, and we use the same four weeks before they are delivered. Those judgments indexation measure as other parts of the tax system, will need to evaluate a situation which has been namely the RPI. Income tax allowances and rate bands transformed since last year, and of course will set out are increased every September by the September RPI the Government’s forecasts and plans on uprating. each year, unless Parliament determines otherwise. However, she will rejoice in one factor, and that is that Child benefit uses this RPI because that is the uprating a negative RPI means that even if uprating did not used for other non-income related social security benefits. take place, a negative RPI would be an advantage for There is a problem with Rossi because, as the noble families because of the consequent drop in the cost of Baroness says, it would produce rather different figures. living. Although we have a range of monumental At present and in the immediate future, Rossi excludes problems around the credit crunch and the recession housing elements, which is appropriate for benefits to which the Budget must be addressed, one of the such as housing benefit and council tax benefit, which plus factors for families is that a move towards negative are aimed to support housing costs. It is not appropriate inflation—which the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, for tax credits, which is a further reason why we also predicted with finality and, I am sure, great should use RPI. There is nothing new in that. accuracy—may change the lengths to which their existing The noble Baroness suggested that we have been incomes will actually stretch. However, the noble Baroness very limited in our onslaught on the challenging issue will be the first to recognise that a debate on the of child poverty, as did the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, financial situation and macroeconomic policy is a who was not overly complimentary about the little beyond the range of this Committee and marginally Government’s progress thus far. I understand that it is above the pay grade of the Minister replying to this the function of the opposition parties to indicated debate on child benefits. their ambitions, should office ever arrive for the Liberal In response to the more general points, I recognise party or, even less likely, for the Conservative Party, the anxieties expressed about the 2010 target. The when they would have to translate such ambitions into noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, followed the noble Baroness action and face up to issues in somewhat different in upbraiding the Government on it. The target was terms than merely asking questions. always an ambitious one and in difficult times it will It is clear that in the PBR 2008 we recognise the prove to be even more so, but since 2007 we are need for help now, as far as low-income families are expecting to have lifted around a further 500,000 concerned. Low-income families and children will benefit children out of poverty, while before that year we had not only from these upratings but from wider measures lifted 600,000. We recognise that the target we set for on personal taxation and VAT. I know that the party 2010 is yet to be attained and that there are real of the noble Baroness in particular—I am not sure challenges attached to it, but I am absolutely confident that the Liberal party was that far behind—was somewhat that my noble friend Lord Jones will give the Government scathing about the 5 per cent reduction in VAT. full credit for their achievements thus far in lifting children out of poverty through child tax credits and Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: Actually, we were other related measures. the first to be scathing. There has been substantial investment in tackling Lord Davies of Oldham: In which case I withdraw this issue, which we are sustaining. Prevention is at that remark and offer the noble Lord my apologies. It least as important as cure in the form of support. The is nice to know that he is on the side of the angels— problem with prevention is that in a period of savage decline in the global economy and the increase in Baroness Noakes: Could the Minister remind me of unemployment in all advanced countries, including when the Government reduced VAT by 5 per cent? the United Kingdom, extra burdens will be placed on the Government in terms of giving help to those in Lord Davies of Oldham: What I seek to emphasise very real need. Changes will be introduced over the is that we had been concerned to introduce the lower coming months. We have proven our commitment VAT rate because we are all well aware that VAT thus far to achieving our ambition of removing child disproportionately affects lower income families. They poverty and to the targets for 2010 and 2020. However, will have benefited from our position on VAT. We are in these difficult economic circumstances, I do not going to introduce a range of changes over the next underestimate the fact that those targets will become few months, but the noble Baroness is right to say that even more difficult to achieve. However, on the broader GC 155 Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009[LORDS] Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations GC 156

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] Baroness Noakes: I was merely going to ask the strategy, the Committee awaits with keen interest, as Minister if he had any comments on the Social Security undoubtedly do all noble Lords, the Government’s Advisory Committee. I welcomed its involvement on a strategy as outlined in the Budget, for which we have non-confidential basis and asked why we did not have to wait only three or four weeks. anything before us to assist the Committee in consideration As regards the rise in tax credits over time, the of the orders. guaranteed minimum income—my noble friend asked about this—for a working couple without children has Lord Davies of Oldham: I apologise to the noble risen by 52 per cent in real terms since 1999 from £117 Baroness; she asked that specific question and I failed per week to £232 per week as a result of consistent to answer it although I had a note on it. We do not increases to the national minimum wage and to the consult the SSAC on uprating orders because they are working tax credit. I am sure that my noble friend will an annual occurrence. That allows both Houses to recognise the value of those changes. debate these increases in detail, as we have the opportunity Lord Jones: I am grateful to my noble friend for to do today. That is a standard convention, which all those comments. The record and the increase are very Governments have followed. We have not consulted good. However, I should like the appropriate arm of on this; after all, we consult the bodies that matter—the Government to promulgate these successes a little two Houses of Parliament. more effectively than has been the case previously—not Motion agreed. that I direct that friendly criticism at my noble friend. Lord Davies of Oldham: That is kind of my noble friend. He interrupted me as I was in full flow, extolling Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Order the virtues of the Government’s achievements. As a 2009 result of all changes to direct tax and benefit since Considered in Grand Committee 1997, by October of this year, families will be on average £2,100 a year better off in real terms, and families with children in the poorest fifth of the population 4pm will be on average £4,400 a year better off, which Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham shows where we have directed our priorities in terms of tackling child poverty and helping poorer-off families. That the Grand Committee do report to the I accept my noble friend’s congratulations on behalf House that it has considered the Guardian’s Allowance of the Government. I am with him on the necessity of Up-rating Order 2009. sustaining this progress as far as we can. I beg to move. Relevant Document: 7th Report from the Joint Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: I am sorry if I Committee on Statutory Instruments missed this point in the noble Lord’s reply, but will he answer my simple question on whether benefits such Motion agreed. as these will be cut if inflation is negative over the next year? If he cannot give that assurance, it will be very Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating (Northern worrying for many people who rely on these benefits. Ireland) Order 2009 Lord Davies of Oldham: As I indicated, we shall Considered in Grand Committee have to wait a month to hear the Chancellor set out in the Budget the Government’s broader strategy on Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham managing the economy. The noble Lord would be the That the Grand Committee do report to the first to emphasise that we live in greatly changed times. House that it has considered the Guardian’s Allowance However, he will appreciate that it is clear from the Up-rating (Northern Ireland) Order 2009. regulations that we are committed to this year’s increases, Relevant Document: 7th Report from the Joint but that decisions have not yet been taken for the Committee on Statutory Instruments future. I emphasise that a falling index is an unparalleled feature in his and my lifetime. I am a few years older Motion agreed. than the noble Lord and I cannot remember a falling index. Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: I think that there (Amendment) Order 2009 was one briefly in 1961. Considered in Grand Committee Lord Davies of Oldham: Certainly this one will be 4.01 pm more protracted. It is expected that the Government Moved By Lord Adonis and wider society will have to respond to it in very different ways than was the case with the incident to That the Grand Committee do report to the which the noble Lord refers. In fact, we have to go House that it has considered the Renewable Transport back to the 1930s before we see parallel circumstances. Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2009. However, that debate is a little wide of today’s regulations Relevant Document: 7th Report from the Joint and I shall resist the temptation to enter it, although Committee on Statutory Instruments and the 7th the noble Baroness might provoke me to do so. Report from the Merits Committee. GC 157 Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations[23 MARCH 2009] Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations GC 158

The Minister of State, Department for Transport definition determines whether a supplier is obligated, (Lord Adonis): The order will give legal effect to changes and, if so, how many certificates the supplier must to an existing scheme that requires suppliers of fossil produce. In short, this means that obligated suppliers fuel for road transport to ensure that a proportion of have the opportunity to supply lower volumes of biofuels the fuel they supply is renewable. than we intended when we made the 2007 order. The legislation before us is of key importance in Clearly this would have an undesirable effect on the our efforts to tackle climate change. Biofuels are the demand for biofuel products. most readily available technological alternative to fossil The order in front of the Committee today corrects fuels. They will play a key role in meeting our European this problem, with effect from 15 April this year. It renewable energy targets and keeping within our also proposes a higher obligation level than we originally forthcoming carbon budgets. It is of both environmental consulted on for the next obligation year, which and economic importance that we amend the order commences next month. This is to help make up for today. any shortfall in the levels of biofuel supplied over the past year as a result of the problem to which I have The Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation was just referred. Accordingly, the obligation level for 2009-10 introduced in April 2008 by the Renewable Transport will be 3.25 per cent of total fuel supplied, instead of Fuel Obligations Order 2007, made under powers the 3 per cent level recommended by the Gallagher contained in the Energy Act 2004. The RTFO obligates review. This problem needs to be corrected now if we suppliers of fossil-based road transport fuels to source are to prevent it continuing into the next obligation a certain percentage of their fuels in the United Kingdom year and to avoid any unwanted consequences for the from renewable sources. If they do not supply enough UK biofuels industry. However, we do not have powers renewable fuel themselves, they can buy renewable under the Energy Act to legislate retrospectively. transport fuel certificates from renewable fuel suppliers or pay a buyout price. Thirdly, we are adding two new fuels to the renewable fuels eligible for certificates under the scheme: namely, The RTFO is administered by the Renewable Fuels biobutanol and renewable diesel. This increases the Agency, which operates an internationally acclaimed flexibility for obligated suppliers to meet their obligation carbon and sustainability reporting system. In the in the future. year from April 2008 to April 2009 the RTFO obligation The changes before the Committee today are intended level is 2.5 per cent of total fuel supplied. “Total fuel” to balance the environmental concerns about the impacts means the total amount of renewable fuel and relevant of biofuel production with the need for greater investor hydrocarbon oil. In other words, suppliers have to certainty in renewable energy. If left unresolved, the produce certificates for an amount of renewable fuel problem with the definition of relevant hydrocarbon equivalent to 2.5 per cent of the total fuel that they oil in the 2007 order could depress demand for biofuels supply. Under the 2007 order the obligation level and threaten the future of the UK biofuels industry. It increases each obligation year until it reaches 5 per would also be a step backwards in our plans to meet cent in 2010-11. our climate change goals. I therefore commend the I take this opportunity to refer to the helpful order to the Committee. consideration of this draft amendment order by the Merits Committee. In response to its seventh report I wrote to the committee on 27 February and provided Earl Attlee: I am grateful for the Minister’s explanation some additional information about our biofuel policies. of the order. I propose to make a few initial observations, I hope that that response has been helpful, and I and then look forward to hearing other noble Lords. would be happy to answer any further questions on With the leave of the Committee, I may make some the points raised in their report. winding-up comments. It is, to say the least, extremely unfortunate that the Three important changes will be made to the RTFO definition of “relevant hydrocarbon oil” in the original as a result of the draft amendment order. First, it will RTFO order was defective. Worse still was the difficulty slow down the rate of increase of the annual RTFO in rectifying the problems which the Minister described. obligation levels. The obligation level will reach 5 per This is despite all the care that is taken when drafting cent of total fuel supplied by 2013-14, instead of by statutory instruments. I was on the JCSI for a while, 2010-11. This slow-down is in response to concerns and it surprised me how many drafting errors slipped about the current sustainability of existing biofuel into secondary legislation. production, following the publication of the Gallagher review in July 2008. When we agreed the principle of a renewable transport fuel obligation, if we are honest, we must admit that The Gallagher review concluded that biofuels have we all thought that it would work just as well as the the potential to deliver approximately 338 million to non-fossil fuel obligation for generating electricity. 371 million tonnes of global carbon dioxide savings However, the reality is rather different. We are now every year. However, because of sustainability concerns, suffering under the law of unintended consequences. Gallagher proposed a slower rate of increase for our When I pressed the print button to print one of the obligation levels than that set out in the 2007 order. department’s publications, little did I realise that I That is why we are amending the RTFO order today: would be printing 71 pages of detailed analysis: a sure to give effect to the Gallagher recommendations. sign of serious problems. Secondly, the draft order will correct a significant I welcome the instigation of the Gallagher review—it problem that we have identified with the definition of is important to be sure that we are taking the right “relevant hydrocarbon oil” in the 2007 order. The steps to tackle climate change—but, thinking aloud, I GC 159 Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations[LORDS] Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations GC 160

[EARL ATTLEE] Lord Palmer: This is rather a sad moment. I think have a concern about targeting transport fuels. Given the Minister is aware that I have been involved in the high proportion of our CO2 emissions arising biofuels almost since the word was first spoken, but we from road transport operations, it is an obvious thing are now in the most terrible mess and muddle, not to do. However, our overall objective must be to least because the biofuel industry straddles four different reduce our global CO2 emissions. To do that, we need ministries: Defra, BERR, the Department for Transport to substitute renewable fuels and power for fossil fuels. and, not least, the Treasury. I was a member of a The problem is that road transport fuels, principally “gang of four” who persuaded the noble Lord, Lord petrol and diesel, have to be produced to a very tight Whitty, to accept the principle of a renewable transport specification, otherwise engine damage or poor fuel fuel obligation during the 2004 Energy Act. From economy or performance will result. On the other early days we were trying to persuade the Government hand, a thermal steam-raising power station is relatively that a tax rebate for biofuels was essential. insensitive to fuel quality; thus the biofuel, or waste We did that because of the benefit to the UK carboniferous fuel, being burnt in a thermal power economy in terms of opportunities for agriculture and station would not need much processing, so the fuel manufacturing, and the contribution that renewable economy would be much higher. Is there not a horrible fuels could make to reducing the UK’s carbon emission. possibility that while renewable transport fuels are The oil companies were not going to use biofuels desirable, it might be better to concentrate our unless it was in their commercial interest to do so or carboniferous fuel substitution efforts on power stations, they were forced to do so by legislation. Of course, it for all the reasons given in the Gallagher review? took European Union legislation in the form of the Gallagher did not necessarily propose that; I am biofuels directive in 2003 for the Government to act merely asking whether we are going in the right decisively. direction. Although not all noble Lords may agree, it may be right to slow the rate of increase on renewable transport 4.15 pm fuels, but it is very much work in progress and the jury Once their hand was forced, the Government is out. introduced a fuel duty rebate of a rather miserly 20p per litre for biodiesel and bioethanol. Although that was not enough, it was at least a starting point. It soon Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: It has been a busy became clear that this rebate would be insufficient for weekend for rugby but little did I think that, between the UK to reach the targets it had agreed in the three orders as Treasury spokesman and four orders as biofuels directive. Again, because the European Union pension spokesman, I was going to get a hospital pass forced them to look at policy by threatening infraction from my noble friend Lord Bradshaw a few minutes proceedings against the United Kingdom, the Government ago—he sends his apologies; he has to be at another looked at introducing this original renewable transport Committee meeting at four o’clock—to ask if I would fuel obligation. The decision to introduce the original also take on this order. I will do my best. RTFO was taken only because of the increase in oil The Minister talked about the helpful report from prices, and not because the Government had any the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee. He vision about how they would tackle rising carbon said he had written a letter about it, although I am emissions in the road transport sector or interest in afraid I have not seen it. Will he say a little more about promoting the UK economy. the question that the committee properly raised—that Over all those years, the Government showed that is, that Professor Gallagher’s review indicated that it is they were supremely good at talking about the urgent doubtful whether biofuels will actually reduce greenhouse need to take action to combat climate change, but the gases? It commended the Department for Transport reality was that nothing was happening. Carbon on taking a more cautious approach but said that, emissions in the transport sector have risen 20 per “due to the minimal evidence provided”, cent in the past five years. It is very distressing. My the committee, noble kinsman referred to the Gallagher report. The “can only continue to question whether the commitment under Government were also good at producing endless the European Directive of requiring road transport to use consultations, but their record of taking decisions in 10 per cent of renewable fuels by 2020 is either achievable or these matters has been one of far too little and far too desirable”. late. Less than a year into the life of the renewable The Gallagher committee made the point that the transport fuel obligation, the Government want to case for biofuel use is not fully proven. I ask the change it—not to make the targets more stretching Minister, as that committee did, for more information because we face catastrophic climate change, but to about how much feedstock is produced domestically reduce them. and how much is imported. Obviously it is a heavy Why should there be a reduction? I do not take on item that affects the carbon footprint. Where do the board all the points made by the Minister. The Government now stand on the 2020 target? Government appear to be taking their orders from the I have one other, less serious question from reading green groups, which have found a brilliant way to raise the report. As I have to admit that I did only one term their own income; namely, to produce scare stories of physics at school and one of chemistry—there was about all biofuels and get the public to pay up. I know no national curriculum in those far-off days—will the a little bit about what I am talking about here. It must Minister please tell me what an ester is? I am afraid it be agreed that the Government have also made a mess means nothing to me. of drafting their legislation. GC 161 Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations[23 MARCH 2009] Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations GC 162

In the recent past, at no stage in the debate has any How does that conclusion affect the United Kingdom? serious consideration been given by the Government We import 14 per cent of our present biofuels from to the fortunes of the United Kingdom and the missed Brazil in the form of bioethanol, and it all comes from opportunity for economic activity, particularly during sugar cane. Brazil has been producing bioethanol from this time of recession. UK agriculture is about to sugar cane for the past 30 years, and even 20 years ago contribute to reducing carbon in the transport sector, a 20 per cent blend was being used in Brazilian motor not by starving anyone, but by increasing production cars that had nothing to do with climate change, but and productivity. The record of UK agriculture has with substituting for imports. Brazil has no indigenous been exemplary over the past few decades—I declare supplies of oil, so for many years the Brazilians have an interest as a farmer who grows oilseed rape for been interested in producing bioethanol and blending biofuel production—and has risen to the challenge of it with petrol. They are also the world’s largest producer feeding us all. I feel certain that the farming community of sugar from sugar cane, with Australia coming in will rise to this new challenge of providing fuel. second. According to the Government’s Renewable Fuels I was for a while the chairman of the trustees of Agency, the UK biofuels sector produces biofuels with Kew Gardens. I heard about deforestation in Brazil the highest sustainability scores. It delivers greenhouse for the purposes of cattle and soya, but I am not aware gas savings of 69 per cent compared to the fossil fuel of it having been an issue that has affected the Brazilian average of 42 per cent and 99 per cent meet environmental sugar cane industry. There is no evidence in the sustainability standards. Why therefore do we not Explanatory Memorandum or the regulatory impact encourage the sector to do more? Instead, we stop assessment to connect the Gallagher conclusion with them by reducing these targets and we punish them Brazil. Secondly, there is a strong conclusion about further by making them pay for the Government’s South-East Asia, Indonesia and Malaysia related to mistake. No biofuel manufacturer will invest any more palm oil, which forms 7 per cent of the UK’s consumption money in what has in many cases been an absolute of biofuels, in this case biodiesel. It is perfectly true disaster due to no help at all from the Government. that there are issues about biodiversity and deforestation I fear that once again Britain will lose out in this that relate to the planting of oil palms. However, we emerging market, which would be a terrible shame. have to remember that the oil palm is the most productive vegetable oil plant in the world, and much more Viscount Eccles: I have a great deal of sympathy productive than soya and oilseed rape. It is much more with some of the wide-ranging points put by the noble highly productive than soya oil or oilseed rape. It is Lord, Lord Palmer, and a certain overlap with my dangerous to draw conclusions from the fact that 7 per noble friend. However, I would like to come at this cent of the UK’s imports relate to oil palm. What subject from a different point of view; that is, with a about the indirect effects on land use of the rest of the rather sharp critique of the way the order was presented UK’s consumption—75 per cent of it, approximately? to the Merits Committee, of which I am a member, That is mainly imported from the United States and and where I think its approach was wholly inadequate produced in Europe, including the UK and, to a to this very important subject. Because of the faulty degree, in Argentina, which has a temperate climate. definition and the reactions of the fuel suppliers to it, There is an analysis in the RFA’s reports about how we are now faced with a new start, and indeed not much of this is from existing cropland. The answer anywhere in the evidence presented to us have we had with UK production is that 100 per cent is from a critique of the way the renewable transport fuel cropland. I do not believe that there are any indirect certificate system is working. All we know is that the land use effects in the UK. In the Explanatory UK made a pretty slow start on biofuels and is still Memorandum and the RIA, there is absolutely no markedly behind the game. In such an important area evidence that there is. I suspect that the issue in the as climate change, to miss the opportunity of reviewing case of the USA is about how much support the US the wider Government policy towards biofuels and the Government should give to their farmers, particularly progress made against it is, I think, not what we would in relation to soya beans, but that is a different issue—it expect from the Department for Transport. has nothing to do with the Gallagher conclusion. It has been pointed out that there is a difficulty; we We move from the Explanatory Memorandum to keep being told that we have a joined-up Government, the regulatory impact assessment. For the first time, but in this instance the joined-up aspect has not been that raises the question of greenhouse gas emissions achieved. What did the Explanatory Memorandum and gas savings. That is not in the Explanatory tell us? We are due to have a revised one in answer to Memorandum, although that is the heart of the the point made by the Merits Committee that no Government’s policy on biofuels. In the latest RFA reference was made to the impact on the UK biofuels report, the savings are calculated at over 40 per cent; industry, whether the agricultural, processing or so far, so good. It says that if we were able to calculate distribution parts of it. The memorandum states that indirect effects, it might be somewhat lower. I do not we have to conform with the renewable energy directive think that it would be much lower for the UK. If and that the slowdown mentioned in the opening future calculations show that it is, I hope that we will policy statement is, be presented with it. “in response to concerns about the sustainability and food impacts Deep in the RIA, after a passage about government of indirect land use change”. intervention, which in essence is a negative intervention— The Minister referred to sustainability, but the EM that is to say, “You will pay if you cannot produce connects it absolutely to the Gallagher conclusion certificates”; as the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, said, about the possible impacts of indirect land use change. that is something that people have to live with because GC 163 Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations[LORDS] Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations GC 164

[VISCOUNT ECCLES] as regards importing ethanol, particularly from South of climate change although it is not something that America. When we originally dreamed this up four they enjoy—we are told that the 20p duty rollback will years ago, it never crossed our mind that we would be disappear at the end of the coming financial year. The cutting down the rainforest, growing sugar, making government intervention will become all stick and no ethanol and shipping it half way round the world. It carrot in April 2010. It is very distressing that throughout was absolute madness. I also look forward to hearing this presentation, there is no mention of UK agriculture the answer that the Minister will give to the noble or UK processors, yet sugar beet provides 16 per cent Earl. of our bioethanol usage; it is a UK supply and does not have indirect land-use issues. The hectarage of sugar beet has been going down because although the Viscount Eccles: I think that only 8 per cent of our performance of the beet has been pretty good in terms usage is domestically produced. of yield, the price has been very poor. I do not think that the sugar beet issue has any effect on food supplies Lord Adonis: I am grateful to all noble Lords who in the UK or in the world, where there is—there have spoken. A large number of points have been always has been in my time in tropical agriculture—plenty raised and I may respond to some of them in writing. of sugar. We have submitted further evidence to the Merits I turn to the oilseed rape market. The document is Committee. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, may be silent on the production of diesel from oilseed rape, aware that I wrote to that committee on 27 February, yet we import 15 per cent of the biodiesel that we use and that we have been revising the impact assessment, from Germany; we produce only 6 per cent from UK which I hope has given him more information. supply. One asks what is going on to make that the There is a big question and a number of little situation. I thought that the Common Market was a questions. I shall deal with a few of the little questions level playing field and I find it difficult to believe that first. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, to Germany can produce oilseed rape at a lower cost our debates. The proportion of UK biofuel coming than the UK. from domestic feedstock is about 8 per cent at the The UK processors—I will finish very shortly—are moment. The noble Lord asked me what ester is. I am basically living on used cooking oil and, to a degree, afraid that I am coming to the limits of my knowledge on tallow and sugar beet as domestic supplies of here but I am told that it is a chemical compound that feedstock. Some of their plants are working at well mimics, or substitutes for, diesel. I say to the noble below capacity. Every now and again we are told that Earl that we cannot discriminate between different there are great hopes for second generation biofuels, biofuels suppliers, which is why it is so important for which somehow will put all this right, even though in us to ensure that we have a sustainable basis for the Government’s view, the primary agriculture market production at the European and domestic levels. I does not seem able to perform. I am very sceptical again put on the record that I agree it is extremely about second generation feedstocks. It is freely said unfortunate that the definition of “relevant hydrocarbon that they are waste materials, but the great majority of oil” in the 2007 order was inadequate for the purpose. them do not have no use at present. Do we have a It was precisely for that reason that we regarded it as United Kingdom policy on biofuels? If we do, what is our duty to come forward with this amendment as it, or are we just waiting to be told by Brussels what to soon as we could in order to give the confidence that do next? the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and the noble Viscount seek as regards the future of the biofuels industry. 4.30 pm I think that I can respond fairly robustly to the major question that underpins the debate. It is not the Earl Attlee: I am extremely grateful for the case that we do not see a strong future for the biofuels contributions of my noble friend Lord Eccles and the industry: we do. Indeed, I have met the noble Lord, noble Lord, Lord Palmer, who obviously know far Lord Palmer, to discuss his interest in biofuel production, more about the subject than I do. I have one question as well as quite a number of biofuel suppliers, and I for the Minister arising from their contributions. Can know that they are doing good work. However, to he alter the RTFO to discriminate between UK biofuels, balance the support and confidence that we must give when he knows that they are not displacing other food to the biofuels industry with concerns about the crops or having undesirable effects, and those of overseas environmental sustainability of certain biofuels, we suppliers which are known to be producing the fuels asked Professor Ed Gallagher, the chair of the Renewable unsustainably; or is he precluded from doing that by Fuels Agency, to look at the whole issue last year. He the free market rules? produced a report that runs to 90 pages and looks at a large number of the issues that have been raised in the Lord Palmer: Before the Minister gets to his feet, I debate. should also like to ask one more question. Obviously I took the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, to be criticising the order corrects a government mistake but what the Government for not supplying sufficient information really worries me is that all these producers stand to to the Merits Committee. We took it for granted that lose 500 million renewable transport certificates according the Gallagher report would be available to the committee; to the latest figures that I got this morning, which indeed, we supplied it. It is the most substantial and amounts to something in the region of £300 million. in-depth assessment that has been made of issues such Will the Government compensate these growers? I as indirect land use and the sustainability of biofuels. hope that the Minister will give a categorical assurance Perhaps the most useful thing that I can do to indicate GC 165 Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations[23 MARCH 2009] Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations GC 166 the Government’s stance is simply to quote from the more detailed proposals later this year, including, I Gallagher report and its conclusions, which, as I say, stress again, indicative trajectories of the growth of were published only last July and formed the basis of supply after 2013-14. Having met representatives of government policy on biofuels and the course that we the industry over recent weeks, I know it is a concern are taking in the ongoing negotiations in Brussels. of theirs that there should be a clear trajectory beyond In the report’s foreword, Professor Gallagher says: 2013-14 for the growth in the supply of biofuels and it “We cannot afford to abandon biofuels as part of a low is our intention, when we submit our action plan to carbon transport future. Equally, we cannot continue producing the Commission, to publish indicative trajectories beyond biofuels”— that year. The cross-sector stakeholder group, which “we” means not only UK producers but producers includes leading biofuel suppliers as well as environmental globally— groups, will be meeting from next month. I hope that, again, that will help us to establish a consensus on the “which are ultimately more environmentally and socially damaging than the fossil fuels they seek to replace”. way forward. The report concluded: The development of the action plan that I have referred to should provide an opportunity for future “This review concludes that it should be possible to establish a genuinely sustainable industry provided that robust, comprehensive debate, but also for greater investor certainty. With and mandatory sustainability standards are developed and regard to the order we are debating today, however, I implemented. It further concludes that the risks of indirect effects stress again to the Committee that if we do not support can be significantly reduced by ensuring that the production of this amendment to the RTFO now, the discrepancy feedstock for biofuels takes place on idle and marginal land and that has caused so much concern to suppliers will by encouraging technologies that utilise appropriate wastes and remain uncorrected. In effect, that would give fossil-fuel residues. A framework for such policies is proposed, but significant challenges remain in the detailed design, implementation and suppliers the opportunity to avoid the obligation in enforcement … The RFA judgement, based upon the balance of future through blending small quantities of biofuel evidence is that if all subsidies and other support for biofuels were with their fossil fuel. That outcome would damage removed entirely, this would reduce the capacity of the industry both the biofuel industry and our efforts to tackle to respond to the challenges of transforming its supply chain and climate change. While we accept that we need to investing in advanced technologies. However, the rate of introduction establish as soon as we reasonably can a clear trajectory of biofuels should be slowed until adequate controls are established”. for further development of biofuels beyond 2013-14, That is precisely the Government’s policy. It was precisely the order is necessary. As I say, it is part of a clear in response to those recommendations by Professor government policy for the development of biofuels. Gallagher—a good deal of the points raised by the We could not have sought to address the underlying noble Viscount are, as I say, addressed in the 90-page concerns and evidence more thoroughly than we did report—that we announced after careful consideration with the work of the Gallagher committee that was late last year our intention to slow down the rate of published last year; it is a comprehensive analysis that growth in the targets for biofuel, to achieve the 5 per is informing our negotiating position in Brussels and cent target by 2013-14 rather than 2010-11, to remain has led to clear statements of policy that I believe give committed in principle to more ambitious targets for confidence to the industry about the development of 2020, and to have the EU review in 2013-14: all in the biofuels over the next five years, while in the summer cause of establishing a firm and clear policy base on we will be publishing our further indicative trajectory which we could reassure those who have expressed for meeting the 10 per cent target. Taking all these concerns about the environment and give confidence factors into account, I think the order deserves the to biofuel producers that we remain committed to the Committee’s support. progressive increase in the supply of biofuels—the present generation of biofuels as well as the second generation to which the noble Viscount referred. In Viscount Eccles: Before the Minister sits down, I doing that we also give confidence to the investors, accept that that is the conclusion that Gallagher came who, as I well appreciate, are making significant to, but if you look at his terms of reference—which I investments in this area. am sure the Minister has—you see that he was asked to look at the issue on a global basis, and that is what he did. He did not study what was happening with Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: I thank the Minister. sugar beet in East Anglia or what was happening He may recall that I raised the question of the commitment about oilseed rape in Yorkshire. There was no UK to the 2020 target. I listened carefully to him, and he focus. There is a question mark about tallow, which is said, “We remain committed in principle”. Perhaps he not related to the same issues as the sustainability could explain the difference between being committed criteria for normal agricultural crops, but so far as I to a target and being committed to it in principle. know there is no sustainability issue with UK-grown oilseed rape, nor with sugar beet. If there is, we should Lord Adonis: I was coming to that point in a moment be told about it. If the Minister and his colleagues with regard to the next steps that we will take. spend the next three years looking at the global issues, In June this year we will submit an action plan to what will happen to the industry in the United Kingdom? the European Commission containing indicative trajectories and plans for using biofuels to meet the 10 Lord Adonis: The point is that we cannot separate per cent target under the renewable energy directive, out the two because we cannot control where biofuels so we remain committed to that target. We have established cone from. As the noble Viscount rightly says, there a cross-sector stakeholder group to help to advise us are good and bad biofuels. I have met domestic suppliers on how we go forward, and will publicly consult on of biofuels and I am persuaded that they come into GC 167 Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations[LORDS] Occupational Pension Schemes GC 168

[LORD ADONIS] The “purple book”published by the Pension Protection the “good” category, but because we cannot control Fund and the Pensions Regulator in December 2008 where those fuels come from and this is an international estimates that around 7,400 private sector defined-benefit market, it is incumbent on us to see that, as we develop schemes are protected by the Pension Protection Fund. biofuel targets, they take proper account of sustainability Since 2005, 112 schemes have been assessed by the concerns, including those about indirect land use. That Pension Protection Fund following an employer insolvency is no reflection on the domestic suppliers, simply a event. A further 295 schemes, with around 134,000 statement of the necessity that we face to see that the members, are currently being assessed. At the end of industry as a whole is put on a sustainable basis if we February, 8,215 former scheme members were receiving are going to see the significant increase in biofuels that compensation at an average cost of £4,000. A further we want so that they can replace fossil fuels. They 21,653 former scheme members are already due to must do so on a basis that does not have unacceptable receive compensation when they retire. negative environmental impacts. The Committee will be aware that when Members in another place considered these instruments last Motion agreed. week, they spent some time discussing the impact of current economic conditions on the PPF. All sides recognised the valuable protection that the PPF offers Occupational Pension Schemes (Levy to scheme members, and explored some important Ceiling) Order 2009 questions about what the future might hold with my Considered in Grand Committee right honourable friend the Minister for Pensions and the Ageing Society. 4.45 pm We should be vigilant to ensure that the PPF is able to continue to offer protection to members of defined- Moved By Lord McKenzie of Luton benefit pension schemes, and that we take steps to deal That the Grand Committee do report to the with threats to the PPF. That is why, for example, the House that it has considered the Occupational Pension Pensions Act 2008 extended the powers of the Pensions Schemes (Levy Ceiling) Order 2009. Regulator and, as the Committee will recall, we were concerned that new business models seeking to offer Relevant Document: 7th Report from the Joint alternatives to insured buyouts of pension scheme Committee on Statutory Instruments liabilities highlighted the disproportionate risk to the PPF that could arise from mechanisms by which shell The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, employers became sponsors of pension schemes. After Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of careful scrutiny, Parliament agreed that powers were Luton): In 2002, this Government recognised that needed to deal with such risks. members of defined-benefit occupational pension schemes Vigilance is needed, particularly in difficult economic were underprotected if their sponsoring employer failed. times such as these when trustees or employers may That is why we used the Pensions Act 2004 to establish well hear siren voices suggesting actions such as the Pension Protection Fund. It is a statutory fund transferring pension schemes to shell employers as a that protects members of defined-benefit occupational way of evading liabilities or otherwise bypassing the pension schemes and members of the defined-benefit controls set out in legislation to limit the PPF’s exposure parts of schemes that are a hybrid of defined-benefit to claims. The Government have made it clear that and defined-contribution schemes. pension liabilities should generally be backed by The fund pays a statutory level of compensation if substantive employers or by the regulatory capital the sponsoring employer of the scheme experiences held by insurance companies. The Committee will no what is called a qualifying insolvency event, such as doubt be glad to hear that the regulator is indeed when a company enters administration; if there is no prepared to act if it considers that trustees or employers possibility of a scheme rescue; or if there are insufficient are seeking to abuse the system. assets in the scheme to pay benefits at PPF compensation I now turn to the draft Pension Protection Fund levels—broadly, 90 per cent for deferred and active (Pension Compensation Cap) Order 2009, under which members and 100 per cent for people over normal a cap on the level of the Pension Protection Fund pension age. compensation is applied to scheme members who are The fund is administered by the board of the Pension below their scheme’s normal pension age at the point Protection Fund, a public corporation. The fund is immediately before the employer’s insolvency event. funded from three sources: the assets of pension schemes These members are entitled to the 90 per cent level of that transfer to it, including any recoveries from former compensation when they retire. employers; a levy charged on the schemes that are Under the Pensions Act 2004, increases to the protected by it; and investment returns on those assets. compensation cap are linked to increases in the general The Pension Protection Fund ensures that members level of earnings. To increase the compensation cap of eligible defined-benefit schemes still receive a for 2009-10, we must consider average earnings in meaningful income in place of the pension they worked Great Britain, as measured by the average earnings for and would have received had their employer not index and published by the Office for National Statistics experienced a qualifying insolvency event, and the in the 2007-08 tax year, which shows an increase of fund of which they are a member is unable to pay 3.5 per cent. Such an increase gives a new cap of benefits at Pension Protection Fund levels. £31,936.32 for the 2009-10 tax year. This means that GC 169 Occupational Pension Schemes[23 MARCH 2009] Occupational Pension Schemes GC 170 the total value of compensation payments for members Select Committees from time to time, but I will not below normal pension age shall not exceed £28,742.69 labour that point today, except to say that in 2004 we for the new tax year. The new cap will apply to should have made the first order affirmative and members who first became entitled to compensation subsequent ones negative. Alas, that option was not at the 90 per cent level on or after 1 April 2009. The open to us then, although I am glad to say that the order ensures that the level of the compensation cap is position has now changed, at least as far as the DWP maintained in line with the increase in earnings, as is concerned, and I commend it for that. required under the Pensions Act 2004. All that I would say on that order is that it comes I now turn to the draft Occupational Pension Schemes under the horticultural heading that I have referred to (Levy Ceiling) Order 2009. The pension protection before of DDT which, parliamentarily speaking, stands levy is the responsibility of the board of the Pension for doing the decent thing. The main subject of this Protection Fund. The levy ceiling is one of the statutory debate, therefore, is the levy ceiling order, as it was in controls on the pension protection levy. Rather than another place last week. I suppose that I should not be set the rate of the levy, it restricts the amount that the surprised that in many cases in his explanation of that board can raise in any one year. The levy ceiling for order, the Minister has rather shot my fox, but he was 2008-09 was set at £833 million. speaking so quickly that I did not quite take in the Under the Pensions Act 2004, the levy ceiling is figures that he gave towards the end of his speech. increased annually in line with increases in the general I would be grateful if he would repeat them. level of earnings in Great Britain, using the rate for As a rather green participant in the debates on the the 12-month period to 31 July in the previous financial Pensions Act 2004, I still like to think of the PPF as a year. The order before the Grand Committee uprates statutory insurance scheme for the underfunded pensions the levy ceiling by 3.6 per cent, bringing it to £863,412,967. schemes whose sponsoring employers go bust. I am This does not mean that the pension protection levy aware, of course, that Ministers have always denied will increase to the ceiling. The board of the Pension this and have said that it is not a pension fund either. It Protection Fund is responsible for setting the actual is technically a compensation scheme. To me that is levy for any year, but it must not set one that is above semantics. To all intents and purposes, since it behaves the levy ceiling. The board understands the pressures like an insurance scheme, therefore to me it is an that businesses are under in the current economic insurance scheme. Unusually, it is an insurance scheme climate. In August 2007, the board made a commitment with two premiums: one to run the fund and the to set a levy estimate of £675 million for the following second a risk-based premium on schemes. We are three years, indexed to earnings, subject to there being concerned today with the latter. no change in long-term risk. The PPF has kept this commitment, and announced that it will increase this This risk premium, or rather the maximum amount year’s levy estimate only by earnings, which means that the fund can demand, has gone up by leaps and that for 2009-10 the levy estimate will be £700 million. bounds since we first debated this annual order, and it However, the annual increases in the ceiling ensure is right that this is debated every year. For 2005-06, I that, after 2009-10, the board of the PPF could in seem to remember that the levy ceiling was set at future increase the levy up to the levy ceiling if it £150 million. It has been raised again and again in considered it appropriate. subsequent years, and now, as the order makes clear, it stands at £863,412,967. I think that that is the exact I confirm that I am satisfied that the statutory figure, although the Minister faltered at that point in instruments before us are compatible with the European his speech. This seems to be a very precise sum. Will Convention on Human Rights. They provide that the the Minister confirm that the odd pounds come about Pension Protection Fund compensation cap and levy because of the increase in the average level of earnings ceiling are uprated in line with increases in average of 3.6 per cent? earnings. Having got that off my chest, this sum of £863-and- a-half-odd million is more than double what was Lord Skelmersdale: The Grand Committee will be expected when we debated the Bill; that is for the full grateful for the Minister’s careful explanation of these year after the first year. At that point, it was expected two orders, especially the background to them. I have to be some £300 million a year. The Committee will nothing to say about the background to these orders, appreciate that that was in the boom years, which of but I might be tempted to say something when we get course the then Chancellor of the Exchequer abolished, to the financial assistance scheme regulations. as he did the bust years. Hubris, we find, has descended on him now that he is Prime Minister. As for as the compensation cap provision, it is one of those things that come along like trains every year; Be that as it may, indeed is, the situation now is perhaps, after the last debate and Question Time, completely different. Unemployment is growing at the trains are not an appropriate metaphor. Anyway, they fastest pace ever recorded, and now, as the Minister come every year and they do exactly the same thing; told us last week, it stands at 2.03 million. Firms seem they uprate by the level of earnings in the previous tax to be going to the wall almost daily—I hope that I am year, as the Government are obliged to do by the wrong about that—and I venture to suggest that most Pensions Act 2004, as the Minister said. It is one of of them, if not all, will have underfunded pension the many orders that cause the bee in my bonnet to schemes. buzz furiously. I have referred to my objective of While I appreciate that the levy ceiling has never yet downgrading affirmative instruments of this sort been breached, will this last, or will we see the ceiling many times before; indeed I have given evidence to increasing yet again to, say, £1 billion by the end of this GC 171 Occupational Pension Schemes[LORDS] Occupational Pension Schemes GC 172

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] Will the Minister review with his officials one specific decade, which is only 12 months or so away? The and growing problem? In the past few months following Minister made some reference to that in his speech. Or the change in insolvency laws, there have been a great on the other hand, is he as confident as his colleague in flood of pre-pack administrations in this country— another place on Wednesday last, who gave the impression phoenix administrations. He mentioned shuffling off that there was plenty of money in the fund. If so, is the pension liabilities. There is a rash of companies calling ceiling too high, or is it precautionary? How is it in the accountants and setting up a clever scheme arrived at? That is where the Minister shot my fox on whereby, in many cases, they shuffle off their pension the figures I was going to ask him about. Will he repeat fund and property liabilities. They then go into how close to last year’s ceiling the levy has got? How administration and come out again 10 minutes later many schemes currently are within the fund and how with the same people in charge, having walked away many are in the queue? He illustrated how they have from their pension liabilities. This serious abuse has changed in the past two years, but I wonder whether I developed in recent weeks. I have already taken it up in am alone in seeing the absolute importance of comparing writing with the noble Lords, Lord Myners and Lord from year to year. As I said, I expect the situation to Mandelson, but there is a very significant pension get a lot worse over the next few years. involvement here and I hope that the Minister will also take it up with the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, whose department is responsible. It is a matter of serious concern as it concerns not only getting rid 5pm of pension fund liabilities, but also, in the way it is operating in the commercial property market, it is Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: I thank the gravely undermining pension funds and life insurance Minister for the explanation of the changes. This is a solvency because it undermines the rental income on timely moment to ask a few serious questions about which property portfolios depend. the grave position in which the Pension Protection I, too, looked at the report of the debate in the Fund finds itself. The most recent figures were that Commons on 18 March. A request was made then for defined benefit pension schemes in this country, the the calculations that have been made and to which the universe which the Pension Protection Fund is set up Minister, the right honourable Rosie Winterton, to protect and the people who are paying the levies referred. The calculations might better be called that we are discussing today, had a total deficit of scenarios as to solvency under different conditions in £191 billion, which was up from £48.8 billion a year the PPF. She gave an undertaking to put them in the earlier. I remember well the passage of the then Library in so far as they were not “commercially Pensions Bill 2004 when we debated these matters. I confidential”. I find it hard to see how calculations of also remember well, in 2005, two academics, Anthony that sort could be commercially confidential as they Neuberger and his colleague, David McCarthy, wrote do not refer to individual firms. I hope, therefore, that an excellent and groundbreaking article in Fiscal the Minister can confirm that those forward Studies on the PPF. Their conclusion, with which I calculations have now been placed in the Library so agreed at the time, was that there was a significant that we can all see them. This is a matter of great chance that the claims on the PPF, public concern. We need to see what the conditions “will be so large that the PPF will default on its liabilities, leaving and the assumptions are in order to hold a proper, the Government with no option but to bail it out. The cause of open debate. this problem is the double impact of a fall in equity prices on the PPF: it makes sponsor firms more likely to default, and it makes In the debate in the Commons, Ms Winterton talked defaulting plans more likely to be underfunded”. about liquidity. That is not the point. No one is It explained that when they go down, the black holes suggesting that the Pension Protection Fund or individual are bigger. In those debates, I challenged the pension funds in this country are going to run out of Government—it was laughed off, but I ask them now cash in the near term. The issue for pension funds, whether they are equally confident—about whether which are very long term, is not liquidity because they the PPF would prove to be a leaky lifeboat sailing on are not going to run out of cash in the near term, but uncharted seas. Never, in my darkest nightmares, did I that they go bust when they cannot meet their liabilities fear that the economy and pension schemes would over the long term. That is the problem which people collapse in the way that they have over the past five are so concerned about, and is why these calculations years. are so important. In America, the model for the Pension Benefit This is a very testing time for the economy, for Guarantee Corporation does not have an explicit pension funds and for the Pension Protection Fund. I government guarantee, but it has the US Secretary of encourage the Minister to be as open as possible in a the Treasury and the US Secretary of Labor sitting on debate that is very serious for the country as a its board. Everyone in America knows that that whole. amounts to an American government guarantee. It is really a fiction for the Government to maintain, if they do, that this is an arm’s-length body. The cost of Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank both noble Lords funding by the PPF levy is falling on an ever-smaller who have spoken. The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, is number of private sector defined benefit pension right: these are serious times for pensions provision schemes, which are shrinking by the day. It is almost and important issues need to be addressed. I shall try like an ever-bigger upturned pyramid resting on an to answer each of the questions that have been ever-narrower base. raised. GC 173 Occupational Pension Schemes[23 MARCH 2009] Occupational Pension Schemes GC 174

The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, made a point the opportunities of back-end loading plans and, if in passing about the affirmative nature of these regulations. necessary, lengthened loading plans, if that is what it He will be aware that to change the current arrangements takes to ensure that schemes are secure. would need primary legislation, so it looks as though I have not dealt specifically with the point made by we will meet routinely on this matter. the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, about the current economic situation, but I think that I have dealt with it Lord Skelmersdale: There has been no lack of pensions in my response to the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott. legislation in recent years. Currently, the PPF has about £3 billion in assets and is paying out £3.7 million a month in compensation. It was designed to work in a benign environment as well Lord McKenzie of Luton: Indeed, although I do not as in the downturn. On the basis of the analyses that think that anything is scheduled to be brought forward have been undertaken, it has enough cash to continue in the immediate future. The noble Lord asked me to to pay benefits for at least 25 years. Part of its assessment confirm the numbers, and I am sorry if I went a little is to keep its promise that the levy should be kept quickly earlier. Let me look first at the pension protection whole in real terms. levy for 2008-09. It was set at £675 million, part of it as a risk-based assessment and part on a scheme basis at roughly an 80:20 split. In 2009-10, as I indicated, Lord Skelmersdale: It should be kept what in real the proposal is for a £700 million levy that is designed terms? to meet the commitment of the PPF to keep the levy in real terms, which is what it does. On the levy ceiling, in Lord McKenzie of Luton: It should be kept whole. 2007-08 it was £804 million, in 2008-09 it was £833 million, Last year, it was £675 million. The Pension Protection and for 2009-10, as we have discussed, it is £863 million. Fund said that it would try to keep that level for three I believe that the odd numbers at the end are derived years, adjusted for changes in prices only. just from the arithmetic of that percentage increase, but if they are other than that, I shall let the noble Lord know. He also asked about the levy ceiling in Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: Perhaps I may 2005-06. No levy ceiling was applied in the first year of raise one other point that I forgot to cover in my the levy. opening remarks. On one high-profile pension, does The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, raised important the Minister share my regret, for this purpose anyway, points about recent reports, the 7,800 series, and that the Royal Bank of Scotland did not go bust, projections for scheme deficits. As he acknowledged, it unlike so many of its customers, so that Sir Fred is important that we look at those for the long term. Goodwin’s pension could be limited to £27,700 a year, Liquidity is the key issue for the Pension Protection as it would have been if he had been in the PPF? Fund. As my colleague said in another place and as Although I do not necessarily expect the Minister to was touched on earlier, there is sufficient liquidity in comment on that, does he accept that I believe that the PPF, even testing it against some quite severe there is ample evidence to stop Sir Fred Goodwin’s economic scenarios, to continue to pay benefits for pension now, not least the shocking revelations in the many years to come—I think it is about 20 years. Sunday Times and the Observer at the weekend about On the request made of the Minister of State, when misuse of shareholders’ and savers’ funds by Sir Fred she said that she would consider what could be done, and bullying of non-executive directors? That pension the data is driven by the PPF and we need to be should be challenged in the courts and stopped on the mindful of its confidentiality, but we are in touch with grounds of improper authorisation, negligence and, the PPF to see how that matter might be taken forward. very probably, fraud. The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, talked about pre-packs and the current trend. It is important to remember that Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am sure the noble Lord pre-packs require the agreement of all creditors, including will understand that that issue is way outside the the pension scheme, but he is quite right that we need matter that is before us today, and I am not briefed on to ensure in all these things that the pension scheme all the detail behind it. In common with most people, should be treated fairly. He raised an issue that has one is gravely concerned about someone in those been raised before: should the Government effectively circumstances walking away with a pension fund at underwrite the pension protection scheme? We do not that level. I am advised that not all of it would come believe that it is necessary to do that; we have not been from a scheme that would be eligible for the PPF, so asked to do that by the Pension Protection Fund itself. that would be outwith it in any event. The noble Lord To underwrite it would be to move us away from the is quite right that for a member of a scheme that went principle that the fund is funded by those who are into the PPF and who retired early, if their normal protected by it. If we went to a government guarantee, retirement age was after the date on which the assessment we would be drawing other people in to underwrite it. was made, the cap would certainly kick in. On the strength of the PPF and the role of the I told the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, earlier regulator—again, the noble Lord referred to the challenges that the levy was increased by reference to price, but it that schemes and scheme sponsors face—the Pensions is not; it is increased by reference to earnings. I apologise Regulator has made clear in a number of pronouncements for that. recently that it is entirely appropriate for trustees to look at reasonable affordability when looking at recovery plans. He subsequently referred more specifically to Motion agreed. GC 175 Pension Protection Fund[LORDS] Financial Assistance Scheme GC 176

Pension Protection Fund (Pension The FAS currently allows early access to actuarially Compensation Cap) Order 2009 reduced payments for members who are unable work and will continue to remain unable to work until their Considered in Grand Committee normal retirement age. The FAS also provide early unreduced access for members who are terminally ill 5.16 pm and likely to die within six months. It should be noted that although the rules of many occupational pension Moved By Lord McKenzie of Luton schemes allow members to take their benefits before That the Grand Committee do report to the the normal retirement age where they are in ill-health, House that it has considered the Pension Protection this facility is generally not available when a scheme Fund (Pension Compensation Cap) Order 2009. has started to be wound up. Relevant Document: 7th Report from the Joint The draft regulations include some significant measures Committee on Statutory Instruments in response to representations that we received when we introduced the existing ill-health provisions that a small number of people with ill health leading to Motion agreed. significantly reduced life expectancy could be excluded from early access to the FAS under the current provisions because they are more than five years away from their Financial Assistance Scheme and normal retirement age. Incapacity Benefit (Miscellaneous We have also responded to concerns raised by Amendments) Regulations 2009 campaigners that the actuarial reduction in payments Considered in Grand Committee under the current ill health provisions are inappropriate where a person is likely to have a significantly shorter 5.17 pm life expectancy due to their severe ill health. I am therefore pleased to present these draft regulations, Moved By Lord McKenzie of Luton which will provide for early unreduced access to FAS payments where a person is aged 55 or over and has a That the Grand Committee do report to the progressive disease from which death might reasonably House that it has considered the Financial Assistance be expected in five years. These payments will be Scheme and Incapacity Benefit (Miscellaneous known as severe ill health payments. Amendments) Regulations 2009. In developing a test to identify the people with Relevant Document: 7th Report from the Joint severe ill health resulting in reduced life expectancy, Committee on Statutory Instruments we considered how best to focus on the people most in need of early payments of assistance. We concluded The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, that the best way to achieve this is via a test in the Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of form that, Luton): The draft regulations were laid on 11 February. “the member can reasonably be expected to die within five years”. The Financial Assistance Scheme—or the FAS, as I shall refer to it hereafter— offers help to certain This is a novel test that is without precedent in people whose defined benefit occupational pension legislation, and we needed to check that it would be schemes have not provided them with the pension that fair and operable. they were expecting. During the development of the test, departmental In December 2007, we announced a significant medical advisers advised that it would be impractical extension to the scheme, and noble Lords will recall to try and apply a test looking more than five years considering two sets of regulations last year that ahead, due to the lack of reliable survivability data implemented key elements of those changes. They will and the need to take into account a large range of also recall that we decided to implement the December factors, such as lifestyle, which could influence a person’s 2007 announcement in stages to give priority to the longevity.A range of views were expressed in consultation elements that offered the most help to FAS members. I responses. A number of responses urged the Government am sure noble Lords will be pleased to know that, as a to set a test looking 10 years ahead, but they did not result of those changes, the FAS now makes payment provide evidence that this test would be operable or at 90 per cent of a qualifying member’s expected fair. Other responses supported the Government’s pension, subject to a cap, from the normal retirement approach. I thank all the respondents to the consultation, age, subject to a lower age limit of 60. including private individuals, trade union representatives The FAS also allows early reduced payments on and members of the Pensions Action Group for their grounds of ill-health and includes certain schemes input. where the employer is still trading and solvent. As a I reassure noble Lords that we do not expect the life result, a total of more than £50 million has been paid expectancy condition to set a cut and dried test. This is to 10,556 people so far. It is estimated that around not a test of whether someone will die in five years, but 140,000 people will receive assistance from the FAS in one of whether their death within that time is a the long term. However, we recognise the difficulties reasonable expectation. This wording does not mean experienced by those who lost their pensions through that a doctor would have to confirm that the prognosis no fault of their own, and the particular difficulties of for a person was shorter than five years in order for pensioners who are unable work due to their ill-health. that person to satisfy the test; rather, that the medical GC 177 Financial Assistance Scheme[23 MARCH 2009] Financial Assistance Scheme GC 178 condition of the person is such that five years or less today, probably to the Minister’s pleasure. Suffice to would be among the reasonable prognoses that a say that the substance of the order is not like that of doctor could give for someone in their situation. the scheme itself or the orders emanating from it, The Government have responded positively to concerns where the Government had to be led, kicking and raised by stakeholders and campaigners that a small screaming, to do anything at all. This order is a number of members, who have been severely ill for different ball game. some time, have been disadvantaged because these Last year’s order improved the financial assistance provisions have not been a feature of the financial scheme yet again, that time to make payments available assistance scheme from its commencement. Draft to people with terminal illnesses and those unable to Regulation 7, therefore, makes provisions to put such work through illness up to five years before their people back into the position that they would have normal retirement age. Naturally, their payments would been in if severe ill health payments had been available be actuarily reduced at the time of first payment, and, since May 2004, when the financial assistance scheme presumably, after their retirement date as well—in was first announced. other words, throughout their life. Perhaps the Minister First, severe ill health payments can be paid for will be able to confirm that. periods before the date of application in cases where a It came to light, though, that there was a problem person can demonstrate that they would have met the with a few people who would be excluded from that qualifying conditions at an earlier date. This can apply provision, being too young to qualify. I believe that even where a member has now reached their normal they did not totally fulfil the illness criterion as set out retirement age; they will be able to apply for earlier in last year’s order. I would be grateful if the Minister payment of severe ill health payments where they can will confirm that when winding up. The order corrects demonstrate that they would have met the qualifying that in cases where people have significantly reduced conditions at that earlier date. life expectancy if they have attained the age of 55 and Secondly, provision is made for survivors, or personal are suffering from an ailment—the Minister used a representatives, to apply for severe ill health payments technical term that I am afraid I did not catch—of for a past period on behalf of any member who would which the prognosis is that they will die within five have met the qualifying conditions but who has, years. Amazingly, such payments are not to be actuarily unfortunately, died before the regulations came into reduced. Is this not apples and pears? The long-term force. ill are to have actuarily reduced payments, under last Thirdly, a scheme member currently receiving reduced year’s order, while payments to the longer-term terminally ill health payments will be allowed to apply for the ill are to be paid without such a reduction. That raises new unreduced severe ill health payments where they a question that I hope the Minister will be able to believe that they would have met the qualifying conditions answer: why? if the provisions had existed earlier. The second question that arises is what happens I add that the provision to pay for a past period will when the unfortunate sufferer exceeds his life expectancy not be a regular feature of the financial assistance of five years. Doctors, after all, are not infallible, and scheme. We have included it solely to allow people to medical science is improving all the time. Do the be reinstated into the position they would have been in payments remain the same, suddenly become actuarily if the provisions had been a feature of the financial reduced or what? Will the recipient perhaps have to assistance scheme from the outset. Therefore, applications reapply? Incidentally, in the Minister’s closing words, for severe ill health payments for a past period will when he said he hoped that the first payments would have to be made within one year of the regulations be made by the end of April this year, he did not coming into force. comment on the fact that the individuals have to apply. That raises the question of how they apply and These regulations also make an amendment to the to whom. Given that when the five years is up they are, incapacity benefit regulations. Regulation 2 amends or will be by then, almost at, or near, death’s door, I the incapacity benefit regulations to provide that financial hope that the payments will continue unaltered and assistance scheme payments are treated as pension unreapplied-for—what a horrible word—until death. payments for the purposes of that benefit. This means that half of any FAS payments in excess of £85 per I also note the second part of this order, which says week will be taken into account when calculating that the payments we are discussing are to be treated entitlement to incapacity benefit. However, this will as pensions. That has two effects. The first is that if the not affect qualifying members who first became entitled individual has enough income, the FAS payments will to financial assistance before these regulations came be taxable. The other is that they will go to reduce any into force. incapacity benefit that may have been in payment. Will the Minister reassure me that not only will no one Finally, noble Lords will be pleased to know that be worse off financially as a result of this but in all we hope to start making payments to those who cases they will have more money to live on in their qualify by the end of April, subject to the provision of declining years? If the answers to my questions are relevant information from members and their medical positive, as I hope they are, then this order makes practitioners. I commend the regulations to the Committee. beneficial improvements to the financial assistance scheme and deserves our full support. Lord Skelmersdale: I referred earlier to having been gently chided, during a previous debate on the financial Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: We welcome these assistance scheme, for going into a history of that regulations. In previous years, regulations of this kind scheme as I saw it. I am going to resist that temptation meant that we felt we had to challenge the Government GC 179 Financial Assistance Scheme[LORDS] Occupational Pension Schemes GC 180

[LORD OAKESHOTT OF SEAGROVE BAY] Lord Skelmersdale: Before the noble Lord gets on on the failings of the financial assistance scheme, to that, I also asked whether, at the end of the five-year which was a sorry saga for many years. That would period, the individual who is about to exceed it would not be appropriate today, now that we are in the mode have to reapply. of rejoicing over a sinner that repenteth. It is now in a good state. This is a welcome change, and I congratulate Lord McKenzie of Luton: No, he or she would not the Minister on it. have to reapply. To supplement the answer I gave to There is one question of detail. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, there will be a right establishing an individual’s life expectancy in these of appeal and internal review in respect of someone difficult circumstances will be for the department’s who might be disappointed by a judgment. medical advisers, so the regulation says, but the final Members will be able to make applications as soon decision rests with the FAS scheme manager. How do as the regulations come into force, which we hope will those two things square? Are there situations in which be by the end of the month. We are already in touch the financial assistance scheme manager will overrule with potential applicants so that we can process their the medical advisers? That would be quite difficult to applications speedily. Members will need to make a assess. Is there an appeals process? It could be quite a written application to formally start the process. stressful time. Perhaps the Minister would clarify As regards incapacity benefits, these regulations those points. We believe that the provision applies to simply put people in receipt of FAS benefits in the only a small number of people. Perhaps the Minister same position as PPF members or members of pension could give an estimate of how many people are schemes where they are taken into account to an affected. There has been serious injustice for a small extent as income when looking at receipt of incapacity number of people and we are glad that it has been benefits. In conclusion, I was remiss not to state earlier rectified. that in my view these regulations are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. 5.30 pm Lord Skelmersdale: Before the Minister sits down, I Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful to both asked him, with regard to the incapacity benefit part noble Lords for their comments and their support for of the order, if he could confirm that no one will be these proposals. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, worse off than if they had to live on incapacity benefits pressed me on actuarially reduced amounts. For someone only. I am sure that the answer is no, but I hope he will with ill health, early access to actuarially reduced be able to confirm that. amounts simply reflects the fact that having access to the arrangements earlier will enable them to have them Lord McKenzie of Luton: I think I can confirm for a longer period of their life. It is a technique which that. FAS payments have to be recognised to an extent, quite often applies. That is in contrast to someone who which could lead to a reduction in incapacity benefits, has the severe ill health payment, which is predicated but the FAS payment is not going to eliminate the on a person having a progressive illness with a life whole of the incapacity benefit. expectancy not exceeding five years. Therefore, not reducing the amount actuarially reflects the fact that Lord Skelmersdale: I see the Minister got a nod they will have it for a shorter period. That is the from behind him. I was going to say that perhaps, difference. given the unusual slight shakiness of that answer, he The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, asked me about might like to write to me, but it looks as if though that the number of people involved, which we think will be will not be necessary. small. Something like 61 people in receipt of ill health payments at the moment will be contacted about Lord McKenzie of Luton: I will save the noble Lord these new arrangements. We think that a couple of another of my letters. I now have the confidence, after dozen people may be entitled. That is the scale of the that nod from behind me, that what I said was correct. issue. The noble Lord also asked me about the process. The individual will need to make a claim to Motion agreed. the FAS operational unit. The individual’s GP or consultant would be contacted to provide Occupational Pension Schemes information. The DWP’s medical advisers will have (Contracting-out) (Amendment) the opportunity to review that and will clearly advise the scheme manager who will make that decision. Regulations 2009 Obviously, the scheme manager would be constrained Considered in Grand Committee by rules of consistency and fairness, and would be expected to act on the basis of the medical advice 5.36 pm given. Moved By Lord McKenzie of Luton The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked whether, for someone who lived for longer than five years with That the Grand Committee do report to the an original prognosis of less than that, there would be House that it has considered the Occupational Pension any adjustment. No, there would not. They would Schemes (Contracting-out) (Amendment) Regulations continue to be entitled to the payments at the unreduced 2009. levels for the rest of their life. The noble Lord also Relevant Document: 7th Report from the Joint asked about incapacity benefits. Committee on Statutory Instruments GC 181 Occupational Pension Schemes[23 MARCH 2009] Occupational Pension Schemes GC 182

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Conversion condition one requires that the pension Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of a member is entitled to after GMP conversion is Luton): Before I proceed further, I wish to state that in actuarially at least equivalent to what it was before my view this statutory instrument is compatible with conversion. Actuarial equivalence allows the whole the European Convention on Human Rights. structure of benefits already accrued in a pension Before speaking on the content of the regulations, scheme to be changed while maintaining their actuarial it may be helpful for the Committee if I set the value. It is a concept that has been in existence for regulations in context and explain a little of the history some time and is often used for private pension schemes. behind the accrual of guaranteed minimum pensions. For the purposes of GMP conversion, it is the scheme Between 1978 and 1997, if a defined-benefit occupational trustees who will decide whether the GMPs held in a pension scheme wanted to contract out of the state scheme should be converted into equivalent scheme additional pension, the employer had to agree that the benefits. If the trustees do decide to convert GMPs, scheme would pay at least a statutory minimum level they are required to seek advice from an actuary about of benefits—the guaranteed minimum pension. When the actuarial assumptions to be used. In deciding what an employer provides a contracted-out pension scheme, assumptions are to be used, the trustees and actuary both he and his employees pay a lower level of national will need to refer to the provisions set out in the insurance contributions. Employees who are contracted draft Occupational Pension Schemes (Contracting-out) out into a defined-benefit occupational scheme forgo (Amendment) Regulations 2009. all or part of their state additional pension entitlement, In order to ensure that actuarial equivalence has and instead receive a private pension from their employer’s been achieved, the scheme trustees must arrange for scheme. the actuary to calculate the actuarial values of the pre- As I explained, the GMP was the minimum benefit and post-conversion benefits. It is only after the actuary that schemes were required to provide. Many schemes is satisfied that actuarial equivalence has been met offered more generous pension benefits in excess of that the actuary will provide a certificate to certify that the GMP; consequently, those schemes have had to condition one has been satisfied; that is, that the record both the GMP and the scheme excess. GMPs post-conversion benefits are actuarially at least equivalent ceased to accrue in 1997, and for service beyond 1997 to pre-conversion benefits. The actuary is also required a new standard, the reference scheme test, applies. to provide the trustees with a certificate within three However, schemes retain liability for GMPs and therefore months. have to operate two different sets of rules. That has I turn to conversion condition four, which seeks to caused complications and extra costs for many schemes. protect the position of the spouse or civil partner The provisions of the draft Occupational Pension post-conversion in the event of a member’s death. Schemes (Contracting-out) (Amendment) Regulations Currently, on the death of a member, a contracted-out 2009, together with Sections 24A to 24H of the Pension occupational pension scheme is required to pay a Schemes Act 1993, will permit the trustees of defined- survivor benefit based on the earner’s accrued GMP benefit contracted-out occupational schemes to simplify rights. Section 24D of the Pension Schemes Act 1993 their scheme structure and reduce the regulatory and sets out the current survivor benefit requirements, administrative burdens placed on them. This new which are that in the relevant circumstances, a widow legislation will allow the trustees to convert their GMPs is entitled to a survivor benefit based on her husband’s into ordinary scheme benefits which are of at least accrued GMP from 1978 to 1997. A widower or equal actuarial value. surviving civil partner is entitled to a survivor benefit based on the earner’s accrued GMP from 1988 to The regulations are technical in nature and complement 1997. After conversion, a requirement to provide a the detailed provisions for GMP conversion in Sections survivor benefit is retained based on the scheme pension 24A to 24H of the 1993 Act, which were introduced by earned from 1978 to 1997 or from 1988 to 1997 as the Section 14 of the Pensions Act 2007. Those sections case may be. The requirement seeks to protect the set out the conversion conditions that occupational position of the beneficiaries whose additional state pension schemes must meet in order to convert GMP pension will be subject to a contracted-out deduction rights into scheme benefits, provided that the overall following the member’s death. actuarial value of the benefit package is maintained. Section 24C of the 1993 Act requires regulations to Sections 24B and 24C of the Pension Schemes Act be made for the purpose of prescribing the circumstances 1993 provide for regulations to be made for the purposes in which and the periods for which the survivor benefits of prescribing the method by which actuarial equivalence are payable from the new scheme benefit; that is, after is achieved, and for setting out when the scheme the conversion of the GMP. The circumstances under receiving the converted GMPs must provide a survivor which a survivor benefit is payable after conversion benefit. These regulations seek to fulfil those requirements. remain the same as those which apply before conversion, I turn to the detail. The new sections introduced by as does the period for which it is payable. The survivor the Pensions Act 2007 set out five conversion conditions benefit rules are complex, and in their simple terms, that must be met in order to convert the GMPs. It is the regulations require that the survivor benefit may only after these conditions have been met that a scheme be withdrawn where the survivor is not in receipt of a can extinguish its liability for paying the GMP. The relevant benefit such as widowed carer’s allowance, draft Occupational Pension Schemes (Contracting-out) widowed mother’s allowance, widow’s pension or (Amendment) Regulations 2009 facilitate conversion bereavement allowance, or where the survivor is aged conditions one and four, so I will concentrate only on over 45 and has remarried, formed a civil partnership, those two. or is living with somebody as husband and wife. GC 183 Occupational Pension Schemes[LORDS] Occupational Pension Schemes GC 184

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] they ceased accruing as long ago as April 1997. Not In summary, although the regulations may appear only that, but many scheme benefits have already been complex, they simply ensure that post-conversion benefits converted. I have assumed, therefore, that this order is are actuarially at least equivalent to the pre-conversion required to convert the rest. However, I am confused benefits and that the current rules which specify when by paragraph 8.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum, and for what period a survivor benefit is payable are which ends by stating that schemes would be unlikely retained post-conversion. These regulations are to facilitate to convert “in the near future”. Presumably, that means GMP conversion and thus enable contracted-out defined that more schemes would be unlikely to convert in the benefit occupational pension schemes to simplify their near future. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell benefit structures by moving to one set of scheme me the reason for this, as I would have thought that rules. Schemes that undergo a conversion exercise will most of the conversion would have been done already, benefit from no longer having to purchase advice for at least in those schemes that have already contracted GMP calculations, no longer having to deal with out. This order might have been in operation had queries from members on GMPs, simpler awards of Section 14 of the 2007 Act been in the Child Support, benefit where pensions become payable, and a single Pensions and Social Security Act 2000 instead. Given approach to the annual uprating of pensions in payment. that, I would be grateful if the Minister would explain Finally, I should point out that the facility to convert the timing of what this order does. In essence my GMPs is purely an optional one which is being made question is, why now? Why has it taken so long to available to schemes. The requirements of these regulations achieve this? become mandatory only at the point at which a scheme One usually gets to penetrate the opacity of decides it wishes to convert its GMPs. I commend Department for Work and Pensions orders. However, these regulations to noble Lords. new Section 69B is more than opaque; I suggest that it is the darkest night just before the dawn. Can the Minister—as the noble Lord, Lord Richard, requested 5.45 pm at Question Time—explain in English the two parts of Lord Skelmersdale: We have now turned our attention new Section 69B as none of my advisers could translate to guaranteed minimum pensions and I, for one, am it to my satisfaction? Unusually, we received no comment grateful to the Minister for his attempt to steer us on this from the Merits Committee. Therefore, I would through what this most complicated order is doing. be grateful if the Minister could provide me with an The noble Lord called it complex. If I had a deeper answer to that. word in my vocabulary to express complexity, I would most certainly use it. I say “complicated” because, although Section 14 of the Pensions Act 2007 is crystal Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: Perhaps the Merits clear in its intent and is referred to in the Explanatory Committee did not comment on the provision because Memorandum, nowhere could I find a reference to it it could not understand it. Like the noble Lord, I in the order itself. I would not expect it to be in the picked up the Minister’s phrase that the regulations main guts of the order, but I would expect to find it in may appear complex. He can certainly say that again. a footnote. Footnote (a) on the front page of the order The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, was searching for states: a deeper expression than “complex”. I suggest “utterly obscure and totally incomprehensible”. “1993 c.48. Sections 24B and 24C were inserted by section 14(3) of the Pensions Act 2007”. On a point of fact, I see that the regulatory impact I did not find that terribly helpful. I therefore had to assessment suggests that the total initial cost—presumably mount a paper chase to discover that Section 14 the one-off cost of making these changes—will be actually amends Sections 13 and 17 of the Pension between £11 million and £22 million, and would produce Schemes Act 1993. a total annual cost saving of £6 million to £13 million. That is a 50 per cent to 60 per cent annual rate of I hope that I have understood the order correctly, return of which any pension fund with which I have not being nearly so expert in the field of guaranteed been associated would have been proud. I just wonder minimum pensions as my noble friend Lady Noakes. whether those figures can be right. They seem to be Its background, though, is, I think, fairly clear. As the particularly hopeful, do they not? That is one question. Minister has said, between April 1978 and April 1997 defined-benefit schemes and, I believe, members of More generally, and more seriously, the order shows the schemes themselves—I stand to be corrected on how totally wrong and unnecessary contracting out that—could, and often did, contract out of the second the whole state second pension is. I have been in the state pension in its various guises. Why we have to pensions industry for 33 years and understand how it have different names for essentially the same thing works, and I just wish that the Government had been defies me, but I shall let that pass. bolder and scrapped it rather than slowly phasing it out following the Turner report. The point is that the schemes themselves had to be as good as, or better than, the state scheme, and provide what came to be known as the guaranteed Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank each noble Lord minimum pension. How many schemes have contracted for their contributions. I do not have data to hand on out, and how many have already converted? As I read the number of schemes that have been contracted out, the situation, it has taken until now for the Government, but I will dig them out and write to the noble Lord, through the Pensions Act 2007, to come up with a way Lord Skelmersdale. He suggested that the schemes to mitigate the fact that schemes have to continue to would already have converted GMPs. They could not, administer the rights already accrued, even though however, because it is the legislation that was inserted GC 185 Occupational Pension Schemes[23 MARCH 2009] European Parliamentary Elections GC 186 into the recent Pensions Act and these regulations European Parliamentary Elections provide the wherewithal to do that. The GMPs had to (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) be preserved, even though, as he suggested, there are no longer accruals post-1997. Regulations 2009 The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, asked why this is Considered in Grand Committee being done now. I accept what both noble Lords say; this is complex stuff, which is partly to do with 5.56 pm simplification. The noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, is absolutely right that the legislation is impenetrable. Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon That is why we have taken action, certainly so far as DC schemes are concerned. As the noble Lord will be That the Grand Committee do report to the aware, we are going to abolish contracting out for House that it has considered the European those schemes very shortly. The Turner commission Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) report expanded on the reason for not doing this more (Amendment) Regulations 2009. immediately for DB schemes. There needed to be a Relevant Document: 7th Report from the Joint period in which the long-term effects of removing Committee on Statutory Instruments GMPs and removing contracting out had to be reflected in those arrangements. The Turner commission was pretty clear that they could be phased in over time. The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall of Blaisdon): My Lords, the purpose of these regulations As the noble Lord knows, this is due to expire by is to ensure that the legislative framework governing 2030. As we generally squeeze out the earnings related European elections in Northern Ireland is fully up to part of S2P, there will be a diminishing earnings date. The Committee will have noticed that this is a related part to contract out. long and complex statutory instrument, and I hope it Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: I thank the noble will be of assistance if I set out the legislative background Lord for those kind remarks. In the light of what he to these regulations and why they are needed. said, I have decided not to point out that he read out The conduct of European elections in Northern the whole of his brief verbatim. I think that was the Ireland is currently governed by the European first time I have ever seen him or any other Minister do Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) Regulations that, but I do not blame him for that in any way. 2004. The regulations apply similar provision to European elections to those that apply to parliamentary elections, Lord McKenzie of Luton: I always read my brief with the necessary modifications to take account of verbatim; I am a noble servant of the Government. the different voting systems. Similar regulations governing The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked me to the conduct of European elections are in force in interpret new Regulation 69B. I will have a go, but the Great Britain. important thing to recognise is its reference to Condition Since 2004, a number of changes have been made to 4 of Section 24B of the 1993 Act. Condition 4 is one the legislation governing parliamentary elections in of five conditions, and requires that the converted the UK, most of which are provided for in the Electoral scheme provides certain survivor benefits in circumstances Administration Act 2006. In the light of those changes, and during periods that are prescribed by regulations. it has been necessary to update the legislation relating That is the thrust of that condition and the thrust of to elections to other legislatures. The Committee may what new Regulation 69B seeks to address. Rather recall that we updated the law regarding elections to than test the noble Lord’s patience today, I am happy the Northern Ireland Assembly earlier this year. to have a private word with him or to write him further Regulations updating the law governing European if he so wishes. elections in Great Britain and Gibraltar were also Lord Skelmersdale: This is such a complicated matter recently approved by this House, and the regulations that on this occasion I would much prefer a letter. The before us today will make the necessary updates for first part of new regulation 69B—that is, paragraphs European elections in Northern Ireland. (1), (2) and (3)(a)—appear to have rather different When we updated the law relating to Northern connotations from (3)(b), (3)(c), (3)(d) and (4). My Ireland Assembly elections earlier this year, the question was about comparing the two halves of 69B. Government also took the opportunity to make a I would be grateful for an explanation. number of possible changes specific to Northern Ireland following a full public consultation last summer. As Lord McKenzie of Luton: In short, the explanation many of the proposals included in the consultation may be that the first part deals with the requirements could also be applied to European elections, we again of provisions for survivors and the second part touches consulted with key stakeholders on whether such changes on the time frame in which they have to operate. should be brought forward for European elections. As Because they do not necessarily need to continue for a result, a number of changes discussed in the earlier ever, as I touched upon in assiduously reading my consultations have been included in these regulations, brief, there are circumstances that will trigger the and it will no doubt assist the Committee if I briefly cessation of those benefits for survivors—for example, explain these proposed changes. someone remarrying after a certain age. I will be happy to write in more detail to the noble Lord if he The first relates to suspension of the count. Currently thinks that would be helpful. at a European election the returning officer may suspend the count between 7 pm and 9 am, but only if the Motion agreed. election and counting agents agree. In a PR STV GC 187 European Parliamentary Elections[LORDS] European Parliamentary Elections GC 188

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] look towards extending this to other elections in Northern system, counting rarely finishes before 7pm and agreement Ireland. If it is not a success, the possibility of prohibiting can usually be reached to suspend the count until the the release of this information entirely will be considered. following day if it appears that it will last long into In summary, these regulations are necessary to ensure the night. However, in a number of constituencies in that the current law governing European elections in the 2007 Assembly elections, agreement to suspend Northern Ireland is fully up to date with legislative could not be reached. Counting in an STV system is developments elsewhere in the UK. The consultation complex, and it is important both for the welfare of demonstrated that there is widespread support in Northern counting staff and the integrity of the count itself for Ireland for these updates and the other changes contained it to be suspended at a reasonable time. in the regulations. I strongly believe, therefore, that the It is for that reason that Parliament recently approved regulations are essential to ensuring that the June that there should be an automatic suspension of the elections are administered successfully, and I hope count at Assembly elections at 11 pm unless there is that the Committee will agree. I beg to move. agreement between the agents and the returning officer that it should continue. These regulations would make the same change for counting at European parliamentary Lord Glentoran: I thank the noble Baroness for that elections. Under the 2004 regulations, candidates for very clear and concise presentation of what, at first the European Parliament must have their nomination sight, looks like a pretty horrendous provision. As she papers subscribed by two electors, as proposer and explained, in fact, it makes a lot of changes to a seconder, and 28 other electors. During the consultation, number of Bills. We have been regularly legislating for there was widespread support for the view that this elections in Northern Ireland over the past five years, places an undue administrative burden on those seeking and I believe that now we have probably come ahead to be candidates and also on those responsible for of the field in Europe. We have as sound and good a verifying that the subscribers are in fact genuine. The system as anywhere, and it is certainly better than the regulations before us today would bring Northern rest of the United Kingdom on all fronts; that is for Ireland in line with the rest of the UK by removing the sure. I am happy about that. requirement that a candidate’s nomination paper at The recent changes seem to be down to good sense. European elections must be subscribed. On removing the 30 people who have to vouch for a candidate, it is understood that the fact that the candidate has to put up £5,000 is probably a big enough deterrent 6pm to stop him playing the fool as a candidate and messing The Committee may wish to note that a new provision up the election. The question of releasing information has been introduced to regulate the release of information is probably a concern in Northern Ireland more than by presiding officers on the number of ballot papers in other parts, because there are two, three or four issued on polling day. It has been common practice for parties, or sometimes eight, and everyone assumes many years in Northern Ireland for this information that the officials are biased and are going to help one to be released by presiding officers on polling day. party more than another, and so on. That certainly However, there is no statutory provision to regulate happened from time to time in elections in Northern the practice. This has led to concerns that presiding Ireland. The parties wanted to know how many voting officers are not taking a consistent approach to releasing papers had been released, and sometimes they were this information, and some presiding officers have had told and sometimes they were not told. It may have to endure excessive demands for this information, depended on which party wanted to know and which often to the extent of distracting them from carrying did not, or on what the presiding officer felt at the out their primary duties. time. Now, under the present legislation as a result of this instrument, as I understand it, the senior presiding It is clear therefore that statutory guidance is necessary officer will decree that this information will be released in relation to this issue. The question is whether we twice during the day, at 11 o’clock in the morning and should legislate to prohibit this practice altogether or 4 o’clock in the afternoon, and it will be done in all the seek to regulate it. None of the respondents to the polling stations at the same time and in the same consultation were in favour of legislating to prohibit manner, I hope. I am getting nods from behind the this practice. For this reason, the draft regulations Minister. That has to be a plus. include provision for the chief electoral officer to direct presiding officers on when and how they may This is a good order. I thank the officials for briefing release this information on election day. Presiding me beforehand, when I was able to ask a number of officers will be able to release this information only in questions. This is a long order, and we have had a lot line with the chief electoral officer’s directions. of electoral law recently.Are there any plans to consolidate all the amendments and different electoral legislation I believe that this will protect presiding officers for our little province into one statute? It would be from excessive requests and against claims of favouring very handy for all those concerned with managing one party over another, while still allowing parties to elections. I support this statutory instrument. continue to pursue as large a turnout as possible in areas where the turnout may be low. However, I appreciate that this is a new policy and, for this reason, the Baroness Garden of Frognal: I, too, thank the noble Government will closely review the operation of the Baroness the Lord President for introducing this. Our policy with the chief electoral officer and the Electoral concern about the legislation is about the timing. It is Commission shortly after the election. If the new a complicated order, coming quite close to elections. policy is deemed to be a success, the Government will We understood that it was government policy not to GC 189 European Parliamentary Elections[23 MARCH 2009] European Parliamentary Elections GC 190 make legislative changes for elections within six months enormously convinced by her reply, which is that in prior to a polling day, yet we are being asked to pass the case of Northern Ireland, for a number of reasons, this less than two months before the publication of the a by-election could produce a distorting outcome. notice of the election. That is even more so in the case of a European Like others, however, we welcome this order, which election. Should a nationalist republican—who would makes sensible provisions to improve the conduct of in all likely circumstances be elected as one of the European elections in Northern Ireland. We particularly three candidates—be run over by the proverbial bus welcome the provisions regulating the release of and we had a by-election, which, as I understand it, is information by presiding officers on the number of the current regulation, it is almost certain that there ballot papers issued on election day and by allowing would then be a unionist victory in the by-election. the returning officer to direct how and when that The sensitivity that the Minister displayed, rightly, in information will be released. This provides clarity to her reply to me in the case of the Assembly elections, presiding officers, party officials and all those involved for the way in which by-elections could lead to a in the running of election day in Northern Ireland. distorting result and an unfair outcome is even more We also welcome the introduction of smart passes marked, potentially, with respect to European elections. and photographic provisional driving licences in the That is outside the scope of these regulations, extensive lists of documents to verify a voter’s identity on election though they are. I would like to have a sense that the day. While it is important to have in place proper Government are aware of the difficulty; that is really protection against electoral fraud in Northern Ireland, all that I am asking for this afternoon. There is a we must do all we can to ensure that no one is potential problem on this score. I thank the noble disenfranchised. The order should be helpful in both Baroness for introducing the statutory instrument, those respects. which is essentially sound and viable.

Lord Bew: I, too, thank the noble Baroness the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: I thank noble Lords Lord President for introducing this instrument. I welcome for the broad support that has been expressed. I agree the decision to hold the suspension of the count at that Northern Ireland is certainly ahead of the field in 11 pm. For Northern Ireland Assembly district council many aspects of elections, and it is a delight to be elections, that makes sense. I also agree that it is right associated with being ahead of the field. I am grateful to abolish the need for the subscription of nomination to the noble Lord for explaining the importance of papers; the idea that you had to have a proposer, a the release of information, especially in a Northern seconder and 28 others seems to be over-elaborate, Ireland context. I understand that there is a sort of and this is a useful change. conflict with logic here, if I might put it like that, The Government have insisted that the broad because we are bringing Northern Ireland into line thrust of this legislation is to bring Northern Ireland’s with the rest of the United Kingdom, but not in electoral legislation fully into line with the rest of the respect of the availability of information. It is best for United Kingdom. The proposal, which has a lot of Northern Ireland; although it is not logical, we common sense behind it, that there should be a cannot always be logical if we want to serve regulation for the release of information by presiding democracy in the best way. In the way in which we are officers on the number of ballots issued during the introducing this part of the regulation, we want to day, and that guidance should come from the chief best serve democracy in Northern Ireland. electoral officer essentially controlling that, in a way Consolidation of all the orders and regulations that takes Northern Ireland away from the UK model. I have been introduced over the past five years is a very understand that the Electoral Commission had some attractive idea, and I will take it back to the department. concerns on that score, and I would be grateful if the I am sure that it will wish to act on that if it is at all Minister would comment on that point. It is not that possible, but it would be an enormous amount of I have any serious reservation about the proposal, work. The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, is right to be which seems to be a wise one, but it slightly conflicts concerned about timing. We would not wish to have with the broader logic of government policy in this been in a position where we were introducing these respect. regulations so close to the European elections. However, The point has also been made that it is government we have been working closely and sharing drafts with policy that legislation affecting elections should not be the Electoral Commission and the chief electoral officer introduced less than six months before an election. at a very early stage in the drafting. That has allowed This seems to be an exception, even if one accepts that electoral administrators to put together the necessary in this case the legislation is basically sound. guidance for the election. I do not think that there will I have one final query, which relates to an issue that be significant practical implications for the election. It arose some weeks ago when the Minister was putting was better for us to take time over ensuring that the through the legislation that she referred to earlier with regulations were right rather than acting swiftly, so I respect to the Northern Ireland Assembly elections am glad that we took more time than perhaps might and by-elections. This is slightly outside the remit of have been expected. the legislation that we are considering today, but it is Going back to the point made by the noble Lord, intimately connected with her answer to me on that Lord Bew, about the importance of not favouring one day and to a lacuna in this legislation. I asked her to side over the other in Northern Ireland, I emphasise defend the arrangement that by-elections would not that we will review this after the elections with the be held in the case of Assembly elections. I was Electoral Commission, and we will come back to it. GC 191 European Parliamentary Elections[LORDS] European Parliamentary Elections GC 192

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] Regulation 2(3) of the draft regulations corrects a The by-elections and the lacuna are being dealt small number of very minor errors in the absent with, as I understand it, in the Political Parties and voting provisions in Schedule 2 to the 2004 regulations, Elections Bill, so the noble Lord should express his which was substituted by the 2009 regulations. My concerns when that Bill is taken through this House. department has clear procedures in place for checking With that, I thank noble Lords for their support. draft statutory instruments before they are laid. They This set of regulations is dense but relatively simple. were adhered to in respect of these regulations, but They are extremely important in ensuring that the unfortunately the errors were not picked up. Although June elections in Northern Ireland will be administered in some respects explicable by the length and complexity successfully, so they are an important contribution to of the 2009 regulations, it is of course fully recognised nurturing democracy. that these errors should not have occurred, and I apologise to the Committee. The draft regulations Motion agreed. were prepared as soon as the errors were identified, and it is not expected that the timing of the draft European Parliamentary Elections regulations will create difficulties for electoral (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009 administration in the build-up to the European parliamentary elections on 4 June. Considered in Grand Committee 6.15 pm The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Simon): A Division has been called in the House. The Committee Moved By Lord Bach will resume at 6.28 pm. That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the European 6.18 pm Parliamentary Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. Relevant Document: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments 6.28 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Lord Bach: Before we were interrupted, I was very of Justice (Lord Bach): I am grateful to the Committee close to finishing my opening remarks. As I was telling for agreeing to consider the draft regulations today. the Committee, the draft regulations were prepared as Subject to your approval, this will enable the statutory soon as the errors were identified and it is not expected instrument to be in place in good time ahead of the that the timing will create difficulties for electoral European parliamentary elections on 4 June. administrators. As required by statute, the Electoral Commission has been consulted and has confirmed The background is that the European Parliamentary that it is content with the draft regulations. While the Elections Regulations 2004 apply the legal framework corrections made by the draft regulations are relatively that is in place for UK parliamentary elections to the minor, they are nevertheless important to ensure the conduct of European parliamentary elections, with smooth running of the European parliamentary elections necessary modifications. The European Parliamentary in England, Wales, Scotland and Gibraltar on 4 June. Elections (Amendment) Regulations 2009 amended That is our objective. I commend the regulations. I beg the 2004 regulations to take into account changes that to move. have been made to electoral law since the last European parliamentary election in 2004. After being approved by this House and the other place, the 2009 regulations Lord Henley: I congratulate the noble Lord on were made on 29 January 2009 and came into force the managing to speak for four minutes on these four following day. pages when his noble friend the Leader of the House The draft regulations before us today are necessary managed to deal with 90 pages of Northern Ireland to correct a small number of unintentional errors electoral amendment regulations in six minutes. Perhaps introduced into the 2004 regulations by amendments the Ministry of Justice could take a little advice from made in the 2009 regulations. The 2009 regulations the Northern Ireland Office and keep things shorter in substituted new Schedule 1 to the 2004 regulations, future. which contain the European parliamentary elections We are very grateful for the noble Lord’s apologies rules. Rule 53(3), as substituted by the 2009 regulations, on behalf of himself and the department for failing to currently provides that, while counting the votes, a spot the errors. In the true spirit of the times, I local returning officer must keep the ballot papers apologise on behalf of the Opposition for our not with their faces upwards and, spotting them when the regulations went through. “take all proper precautions for preventing any person from However, the rectification seems perfectly straightforward seeing them”. and is set out in the explanatory note, and for that we The amendment in Regulation 2(2) of the draft regulations are grateful. I am also grateful for the noble Lord’s corrects this rule, in accordance with the original saying that the department’s procedures did not work policy intention, to provide that a local returning as they should have done. Should a further measure be officer must take all proper precautions for preventing required in future, we hope that the department will any person from seeing only, ensure that the procedures work as they should, and “the numbers or other unique identifying marks printed on the that such mistakes can be spotted earlier. I offer the back of the papers”. Opposition’s full support for the regulations. GC 193 European Parliamentary Elections[23 MARCH 2009] European Parliamentary Elections GC 194

Baroness Garden of Frognal: Although it was obviously Lord Bach: I thank the noble Lord and the noble unfortunate that the errors crept in, we, too, entirely Baroness for what they had to say. accept the Minister’s explanation and raise no objection Motion agreed. to the regulations. Committee adjourned at 6.30 pm.

WS 27 Written Statements[23 MARCH 2009] Written Statements WS 28

some people find them easier to access than others. We Written Statements recognise we can do more to ensure that inspiring opportunities are available in every community, accessible Monday 23 March 2009 to everyone. The White Paper reaffirms the commitment to informal Armed Forces: Gurkha Pensions adult learning across government. It sets out how we Statement will facilitate this by building capacity within individuals and communities and connecting the people who can make this happen. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My honourable Government cannot do this alone. Our role is to be friend the Under-Secretary of State (Kevan Jones) has a catalyst for innovation and change. We will invest an made the following Written Ministerial Statement. additional £30 million in 2009-10, from within DIUS existing baselines, to support the innovation we want I am pleased to inform the House that with effect to see. But it will take the continued efforts of all those from 1 April 2009 there will be an increase in pensions who have been engaged with us to date, and many paid through the Gurkha pension scheme of 14.1 per more, to continue the learning revolution. cent. In addition, there will be significant increases of 20 per cent and more to some 1,000 pensioners who EU: General Affairs and External are 80 years or over. This increase is in line with the tripartite agreement which established a linkage between Relations Council Indian Army pensions the Gurkhas pension scheme. Statement This means the elderly who are the most vulnerable will get an overall increase of at least 34 per cent on The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth their pensions, a significant proportion of which will Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My right honourable be backdated to January 2006. friend the Minister for Europe (Caroline Flint) has It has always been our policy to ensure that the made the following Written Ministerial Statement. 26,500 Gurkha pensioners mainly living in Nepal are My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary treated fairly. The Gurkha pension scheme currently (David Miliband) and I represented the UK at the costs some £47 million per year and it is calculated General Affairs and External Relations Council in that these increases will add to the cost by a further Brussels. £7 million per year. The agenda items covered were as follows: This ensures that Gurkha pensions are kept at a fair General Affairs and appropriate level and that the elderly who are the most vulnerable are helped. It demonstrates our continuing Full details of A points adopted at the General commitment to the retired Gurkha community in Affairs Council can be found at www.consilium.europa. Nepal. This also reinforces the UK’s long-standing eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/gena/ links with the Government of Nepal which we greatly 106691.pdf. value and would wish to maintain. European economic recovery plan The council resumed discussion from the February GAERC of potential means of financing the Education: Adult Learning Commission’s proposals for energy and broadband Statement infrastructure projects. The presidency put forward a compromise package, which I supported, on the condition The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, that there would be no further changes to the energy Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills (Lord project list, and that existing allocations for carbon Young of Norwood Green): Today my right honourable capture and storage projects would be maintained. friend the Secretary of State Innovation, Universities The presidency concluded that the European Council and Skills (John Denham) has made the following on 19 and 20 March would need to return to the issue. Written Ministerial Statement. Preparation of the European Council, 19 and 20 March Today I am publishing The Learning Revolution,a The GAERC examined draft conclusions for the White Paper on informal adult learning. Copies have spring European Council (SEC), which cover the economic been placed in the Library. and financial situation; climate change and energy; The boom in book clubs, online research and blogging, and external relations, in particular the Eastern together with the continuing popularity of museums, Partnership. The Government support the presidency’s public lectures and adult education classes, all demonstrate priorities for the SEC. that people in this country have a passion for learning. On the economic and financial situation, there was This informal adult learning can transform people’s broad support for the draft conclusions, although my lives and makes a huge contribution to the well-being right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary noted of the nation. It is a growing movement this Government the need to reflect the outcome of the G20 Finance are proud to foster and encourage. Ministers’ meeting over the weekend. On climate change, Our ambition is for every adult to be able to access he underlined the European Council’s commitment to and benefit from a wide choice of informal adult setting out a position on climate financing at the SEC learning. But like many services and opportunities, and called for more detailed language on possible WS 29 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 30 options. He also requested European Council text on Sudan/International Criminal Court the EU budget review, calling on the Commission to High Representative Solana stressed the extent of publish its White Paper by the summer. He generally the humanitarian problems caused by the expulsion of supported the energy part of the text. the 13 international non-governmental organisations On external relations, my right honourable the Foreign (NGOs) and the need to ensure the comprehensive Secretary noted plans for Foreign Ministers to discuss peace agreement (CPA) did not suffer as a result. My Afghanistan and Pakistan, and stressed the importance right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said of a detailed debate on Pakistan, given the gravity of that the EU needed to keep up the pressure on Sudan the situation there. to reverse its decision; contacts with the African Union (AU) and the League of Arab States (LAS) were an External Relations important part of this; but we also needed to consider The full text of council conclusions (including A urgently what the consequences would be if our current points) can be accessed at www.consilium.europa.eu/ precautionary measures failed and the NGOs were no uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/gena/106692.pdf. longer able to operate in Sudan. We would need the Western Balkans AU and the LAS to step in to alleviate the situation; but we should also be aware that we could quickly find Discussion focussed on Bosnia and Herzegovina ourselves in a serious humanitarian crisis, extending (BiH). well beyond Darfur. The council reviewed progress towards meeting the The council agreed conclusions, along the lines of conditionality for closure of the Office of the High UK proposals, recalling the presidency’s declaration Representative (OHR) and concluded that it had not on behalf of the EU following the Government of been met. Recalling its conclusions of November, the Sudan’s decision to expel 13 international humanitarian council urged BiH to engage with stronger determination NGOs and revoke the licences of three local NGOs; on the necessary reform agenda and called on BiH’s and reiterating the presidency’s call upon the Government political leaders to refrain from nationalist rhetoric of Sudan to reconsider their decision urgently, and and actions. The council also reconfirmed its readiness ensure that humanitarian assistance to the most vulnerable for a transition from the OHR to increasing local people in Sudan be continuously guaranteed. ownership, supported by a reinforced EU presence, once the conditionality is met. It reviewed progress of Middle East Peace Process (MEPP) EU preparations for this reinforced presence. The Ministers took stock of the situation in Gaza, the council also agreed to keep under review the inter-Palestinian talks and the formation of a new possible evolution of EUFOR-ALTHEA (the EU’s Israeli Government. The presidency, High Representative military operation in BiH) in light of political Solana and Commissioner Ferrero-Waldner briefed developments. Ministers on their recent contacts with partners in the region including their meeting on 15 March with the The Foreign Secretary emphasised the importance Foreign Ministers of Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinian of BiH meeting the conditionality for OHR closure Authority. and the need for the EU to remain firmly engaged in efforts to ensure that BiH political leaders took forward Transatlantic Relations the necessary reform agenda. He welcomed the The presidency briefed on plans for the informal preparations for a future reinforced EU presence and EU-US summit in Prague on 5 April. It envisaged that underlined the importance of a strong mandate. discussion would be organised around four main themes: Ministers also commended the efforts of Miroslav climate change, the global economy, energy and foreign Lajcák, the outgoing High Representative/EU Special policy. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, Representative and welcomed the appointment of his with some support, called for Afghanistan to be the successor, Valentin Inzko. main focus of foreign policy discussions. AOB Belarus Information on the G8 presidency programme Ministers agreed to renew the common position on Foreign Minister Frattini updated the council on Belarus, which is the legal basis for travel restrictions the Italian G8 presidency priorities for the La Maddalena and an asset freeze for another 12 months, but suspend summit and G8 Foreign Ministers’ meeting in June. the travel restrictions (except on those who failed to investigate the “disappearance” of opposition activists Sri Lanka in 1999 and 2000, and the chair of the Central Election The Commission raised the deteriorating humanitarian Committee) for a further nine months. A review of situation; the Government of Sri Lanka had proposed Belarus’s progress will take place at the end of the nine evacuation passages in the remaining conflict area, months, with the possibility either of reimposition of but these had not been implemented and could not sanctions, or their complete lifting. The Government substitute for a ceasefire. They therefore urged the EU broadly welcome this decision which reflects the mixed to hold a high-level troika with the Government of progress made by Belarus to date. Sri Lanka and engage with India. The council adopted conclusions that: confirmed Durban Review Conference the above decision; welcomed positive steps taken by There was an inconclusive discussion of the EU’s Belarus following the council’s decision on the temporary approach to the Durban Review Conference, the follow-up suspension of sanctions in October 2008; expressed to the 2001 UN World Conference Against Racism, concerns about the human rights situation and stressed which will take place in Geneva in April. Negotiations that it was important for Belarus to address these. are continuing in Geneva. WS 31 Written Statements[23 MARCH 2009] Written Statements WS 32

A points and input into other regulatory issues relevant to its The council adopted a list of A points, in particular: area of responsibility. Fera has responsibility to support government in responding to and recovering from conclusions on EUFOR Chad/RCA, welcoming emergency situations, by providing relevant capability, the successful conclusion of the mission; scientific evidence, analysis and advice. Including the conclusions contributing to the SEC debate on GDS in Fera enables a wider breadth and coherence development and climate change; and of service offering to government, and will enhance conclusions on Afghanistan which: offer substantial the national emergency response and recovery capability financial assistance to the August 2009 elections, including and UK Resilience. It will also strengthen the science an electoral observation mission (subject to conditions); capability underpinning GDS functions and areas of reaffirm EU commitment to EUPOL and the rule of expertise. law, including significantly enhancing capacity building; Fera also provides research and development, advice look towards a single EU representative; agree the and services to other public and private sector need for more and better assistance; highlight the organisations on a commercial basis. The agency will important regional dimension and the EU’s intention have a remit to develop wider market opportunities to play a greater role in supporting Pakistan, including alongside its work for government. This will build on through an ad hoc summit. The conclusions also the skills that underpin its sustainable future and will welcome the visit of Vice-President Biden and look maximize the value to the taxpayer of its unique forward to co-operation with the US in a renewed knowledge and facilities. commitment to Afghanistan and the region. Fera will work closely with other government departments and contribute to their PSAs. For example: Food and Environment Research Agency climate change (Department for Energy and Climate Change); Statement regional economic performance (Department for Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform); The Minister of State, Department of Energy and international poverty reduction and achieving Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food MDGs (Department for International and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My Development); right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn) counterterrorism (Home Office); has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. safer communities (Home Office); I am pleased to announce that the Food and innovation and skills (Department for Innovation, Environment Research Agency (Fera) will vest on Universities and Skills); 1 April 2009 as an executive agency of Defra. health and well-being (Department of Health); Fera brings together the Central Science Laboratory food safety, choice and healthy eating—support for (CSL), the UK Government Decontamination Service the Food Standards Agency (FSA) strategic priorities; (GDS) the Plant Health and Seeds Inspectorate (PHSI), and Plant Varieties and Seeds Division (PVS) and Plant environment, sustainability and rural affairs Health Division (PHD). It has a starting complement (Welsh Assembly Government). of 900 staff and will have an annual turnover of £72 million. The agency will continue CSL’s established remit in supporting government and industry food security Fera’s purpose is to provide robust evidence, rigorous objectives. Through its scientific expertise Fera: analysis and professional advice, underpinned by world- class research, to help Defra, other government is recognised both nationally and internationally in departments and other stakeholders support and develop the areas of food chain safety and quality, and a sustainable and secure food chain, a healthy natural food security. It is part of a national network of environment and protect the global community from laboratories specifically established to respond to deliberate chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear CBRN incidents, which might include malicious/ (CBRN) or major accidental Hazard Material (HazMat) accidental food contamination, and has national incidents. status as the UK National Reference Laboratory for the FSA and Veterinary Medicines Directorate As an executive agency of Defra, Fera plays an (VMD) for specific chemical analyses in food important role in helping to deliver the department’s including dioxins, mycotoxins, trace elements and strategic priorities. These are to: pesticides; secure a healthy natural environment for us all and has a dedicated food safety and quality operation, deal with environmental risks; which provides scientific capacity, capability and promote a sustainable, low-carbon and resource- advice to underpin the food-related objectives of efficient economy; and Defra, the FSA, Pesticides Safety Directorate ensure a thriving farming sector and a sustainable, (PSD), VMD and other industry, and international healthy and secure food supply. stakeholders; and It provides operational policy and regulation in has significant international influence with experts support of these priorities, particularly in respect of on European Food Safety Association (EFSA) panels, plant and bee health, crop varieties and seeds. In and is also heavily involved in European food research addition, it undertakes and delivers high quality support programmes. For example the agency is leading a WS 33 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 34

major EU research project called TRACE on the which reduce risks to commercial crop production and traceability and authenticity of food. (More environment, assist trade facilitation and reduce regulatory information at www.trace.eu.org/menu/project/). burdens in accordance with Hampton principles. Fera will continue to deliver the business functions Research and Assurance and services that have been provided by its constituent To deliver outputs from applied research and parts. For example it will provide the following services monitoring/ surveillance to deadline, which meet agreed to the agricultural and horticultural industries: quality standards and answer questions, and present plant clinic services—global pest and disease them in a way that is useful to policy-makers and identification services; other delivery bodies. To convert research outputs into LIAISON—contains information on registered innovative products and services. agrochemical products for all UK crops; To raise audit, risk management, security and quality IENICA—Interactive European Network for standards and expectations. To deliver key outcomes Industrial Crops and their Applications; against the 2006 science audit implementation. BeeBase—information for beekeepers; Response and Recovery certification schemes for seeds and propagating To influence and deliver emergency response and material; recovery strategies and practical capability across the public sector, including ongoing assessment of supplier registration and breeders’ rights schemes for new capability and capacity. plant varieties; Sustainability proficiency testing schemes—Fera operates several schemes which provide the food, water, environment To consolidate the implementation of Fera, ensuring and plant health industries with assessments of the that stakeholders are fully informed of progress, and technical performance of their analysis laboratories. influence over and satisfaction levels for customers raised. To ensure that resources, including site Details of all its services are available on Fera’s accommodation and collaborative working, are maximised website at http://services.csl.gov.uk/fera. to best potential and meet benefits’ realisation and In the short term stakeholders should not be affected sustainability targets. by the formation of Fera and will receive the same To recover the full economic costs of the agency’s professional services they currently enjoy. As the new services from government departments, agencies and agency develops I expect to see stakeholders benefit external customers, ensuring delivery of efficiency targets. from improved services in the following areas: Further details of Fera’s role and responsibilities stakeholders have access to a “one-stop” service in are given in its corporate documents: the framework support of sustainable agriculture and food safety; document, the strategic direction and corporate plan scope for a more efficient and integrated approach 2009-10 to 2011-12, and the business plan 2009-10. to EU legislation, and therefore simpler, more Copies will be placed in the Libraries of the House cost-effective regulation; and will be published on the agency’s website at http:// co-location of policy and scientific databases, improved services.csl.gov.uk. risk assessment, more seamless transfer of diagnostic results through integration of databases resulting in more rapid management action, and better, faster Highways Agency: Business Plan disease control at lower cost; Statement development of service provision in international consultancy, advice and training for the PVS and The Minister of State, Department for Transport PHSI elements of the new agency as a result of (Lord Adonis): The Highways Agency’s business plan greater critical mass and collaboration with CSL for 2009-10 has been published today. It sets out the where expertise in these markets already exists; and agency’s budgets for the financial year and how that more cohesive approach to supporting and funding will be spent. The plan contains 13 key informing the central government approach to performance targets against which the agency’s developing CBRN-related policies. performance during the year will be measured. Copies of the business plan have been placed in the Libraries Fera will operate under the net control accounting of both Houses. regime. As an on-vote agency, Fera will be included within the annual report and consolidated accounts for Defra. It will have an annual turnover of £72 million. NHS: Private Care This includes the recently announced new funding for Statement bee health of £4.3 million. Fera will be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and will produce its own annual report and accounts. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): My I have set the Food and Environment Research right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Agency the following performance targets for 2009-10: Health (Alan Johnson) has made the following Written Regulation, Policy and Risk Ministerial Statement. To develop plant variety and seed, and plant and Following a 12-week consultation, which included bee health policies in order to help achieve the hearing the views of a wide range of NHS and other Government’s strategic priorities. To target activities, stakeholders, I am today publishing final guidance on WS 35 Written Statements[23 MARCH 2009] Written Statements WS 36

NHS patients who wish to pay for additional private A number of debates have taken place this year care. The department received 146 consultation responses, with reference to the occupiers of the properties affected and was pleased that many of these responses were by the ratings review of ports. The Government have broadly supportive of the recommendations of the listened carefully to the concerns put forward by the Richards review and the aims of the guidance. The final affected occupiers who, as a consequence of being version of the guidance addresses many of the practical separately assessed for rates from 1 April 2005, are in issues raised by respondents, and will provide clarity receipt of unexpected and significant backdated rate for trusts and patients in the small number of cases bills. where they choose to purchase additional private treatment. In the current economic conditions, the Government have constantly emphasised that they are concerned Patients and the public can be confident that together about the impact of significant and unexpected backdated with the package I set out in my oral Statement on rates liability on businesses. The ratings system has to 4 November 2008 (Official Report, col. 131) these be fair and equitable to all, and there is not a legislative measures will mean greater fairness and faster access solution for waiving tax liability which does not confer to a wider range of more expensive drugs, reducing the a disadvantage among other rate payers who have need for patients to seek private care in the first place. paid the rates that are legally established and due. The guidance and the response to the consultation has been placed in the Library and copies are available However, we believe, in the current economic to honourable Members from the Vote Office. circumstances that there is a general case to assist all businesses liable to receive large, unexpected backdated bills that have to be paid immediately, as is the case Ports: Business Rates with a number of companies, including some port-based Statement businesses across the UK. Following the Chancellor’s announcement in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Pre-Budget Report, therefore, the Government have Department for Communities and Local Government put in place an unprecedented scheme to help all (Baroness Andrews): My right honourable friend the businesses, which may include some occupiers of ports, Minister for Local Government (John Healey) has to pay significant and unexpected backdated rates made the following Written Ministerial Statement. liabilities over a period of eight years. Following the motion “to regret that the Non-Domestic Rating (Collection and Enforcement) (Local Lists) The Valuation Office Agency has also put in place (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2009 (SI 2009/204), special fast-track arrangements for rate payers with laid before the House on 10 February, will not prevent backdated bills who want to question or challenge several port companies from becoming insolvent”, the their assessment following the ports review, and will Government are placing their response on record. give priority attention to these cases at all stages.

WA 87 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 88

stock. In the case of one particular type, known as the Written Answers AVIMO seal, it was also necessary to remanufacture the item from a more modern material. Monday 23 March 2009 Asked by Lord Astor of Hever Afghanistan To ask Her Majesty’s Government when all aircraft Question in the Nimrod fleet will be able to return to operations Asked by Viscount Waverley after modification to fuel seals and engine bay hot air ducts. [HL2192] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the extent to which their actions in Afghanistan fully take account of Afghan culture. Baroness Taylor of Bolton: Nimrod aircraft will not fly after 31 March 2009 unless the engine bay hot air [HL2043] ducts have been replaced. There will be sufficient The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Nimrod aircraft available to continue to support all of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): Prior to anticipated homeland defence and SAR operations deployment, UK troops undergo cultural awareness and, on current planning, Nimrod aircraft will return training specific to Afghanistan. Once in theatre, all to overseas operations by early summer 2009. During NATO forces follow guidance issued by Commander this period we will use other UK and coalition assets ISAF in September 2008 on how to conduct themselves to maintain an effective surveillance capability overseas. when working with the Afghan people. ISAF forces The replacement of fuel seals does not affect the also work closely with their Afghan counterparts and availability of Nimrod aircraft for operations either in political and tribal leaders to ensure that the planning UK or overseas. and conduct of operations fully takes account of local cultural conditions. Aviation: Safety Question Agriculture: Genetically Modified Crops Question Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass Asked by The Countess of Mar To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with United Kingdom airlines operating To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Boeing 777 aircraft about passenger safety, in particular Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on the accident investigator’s conclusion that there is a 17 December (WA 42–43), whether the Advisory high probability of further accidents caused by Committee on Novel Foods and Processes has icing on aircraft’s fuel-oil heat exchanger (FOHE). responded to the request for advice from the Food [HL2223] Standards Agency in relation to the safety of genetically modified crops; and, if so, with what results. The Minister of State, Department for Transport [HL2031] (Lord Adonis): The Air Accident Investigation Branch, which is investigating the accident at Heathrow in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, January 2008, has not concluded that there is a high Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The probability of further accidents caused by fuel icing committee considered the scientific reports referred to on the B777. The US National Transportation Safety in the previous Written Answer at its meeting on Board (NTSB) has also investigated an incident of 20 February 2009 and advised that, although some engine power loss on the B777 which did not result in differences were reported between laboratory animals an accident. NTSB technical reports about this incident given diets that contained a genetically modified (GM) did not in fact conclude that there was a high probability crop variety and those given a non-GM variety, no of further incidents of power loss cause by fuel icing, conclusions can be drawn from these reports about the although this was suggested in their press statements. safety of GM crops. The minutes of the meeting will Since the accident at Heathrow in January 2008 be published in due course on the committee’s website Boeing has developed a range of changes to operating at www.acnfp. gov.uk. procedures to ensure that aircraft crews can minimise and manage any risk associated with potential ice Armed Forces: Nimrod accumulation in the fuel system. These procedures Questions have been approved by European Aviation Safety Agency Asked by Lord Astor of Hever (EASA) and the US Federal Aviation Administration (US FAA) and have been made mandatory for all US To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the and European airlines. Both EASA and the US FAA reasons for the delay in providing replacement fuel are content that, subject to the application of these seals for the Nimrod fleet. [HL2191] procedures, B777 aircraft with Rolls-Royce Trent engines are safe to remain in service. The new procedures were The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry shown to be effective in the incident investigated by of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The work to the NTSB referred to above when thrust control was replace fuel seals on the Nimrod fleet was delayed by successfully recovered following an uncommanded power the requirement to manufacture a large number of reduction in a single engine on a Delta Airlines Boeing 777 new seals which the manufacturer did not hold in on 26 November 2008. WA 89 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 90

Bees Note: * Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a Question person may have more than one admission within the year. Asked by Lord Moynihan Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps for health and social care they are taking to license additional medications for controlling the varroa mite. [HL1950] The total admission figures includes cases where the carbon monoxide poisoning was accidental (such as a gas fire that leaked in the home and caused The Minister of State, Department of Energy and poisoning) and also cases where the poisoning was Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food intentional (such as attempted self harm by poisoning). and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD) within Defra is working closely with bee representatives to improve Census the availability of authorised medicines for controlling Question the varroa mite. The VMD has received an application for the authorisation of a new varroa medicine and Asked by Lord Laird has identified two veterinary medicines for bees authorised To ask Her Majesty’s Government what ethnic elsewhere in the EU. The VMD is encouraging the groupings they propose to list on the 2011 census manufacturers of these products to apply for an form. [HL2087] authorisation to market them in the UK and has offered a 50 per cent reduction on application fees for these products. Lord Patel of Bradford: The information requested Veterinary surgeons already have the authority to falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics import and administer veterinary medicines to animals Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. under their care under the prescribing cascade. This Letter from Karen Dunnell, National Statistician, to can be done using the VMD’s special import certificate Lord Laird dated March 2009. scheme. As most beekeepers do not consult veterinary As National Statistician I have been asked to reply surgeons, the VMD is working with bee representatives to your recent Question asking what ethnic groupings and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to are proposed on the 2011 census form. (HL2087) identify veterinary surgeons who would be able to The format of the ethnic group question proposed provide this service. for the 2011 census in England and Wales is as set out in the White Paper Helping to Shape Tomorrow published on 11 December 2008. This is available on the website Carbon Monoxide Poisoning at www.ons.gov.uk/census/2011-census/2011-census- Question project/legislation/index.html. The proposals have been determined by the Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff requirements of users of census statistics, identified through a programme of extensive consultation which To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the began in 2005. Users are predominantly from central Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on and local government, the health service, education 4 March (WA156), how many patients were admitted authorities, the academic community, professional to hospital for carbon monoxide poisoning in each organisations, and commercial businesses, but the views of the past five years. [HL2242] of a wide range of other stakeholders were also taken into consideration in designing the question content The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, for the 2011 census. Detailed information about how Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The decisions were made about tick-box categories in the department does not have data on how many patients ethnic group question is available on the website at were admitted to hospital for carbon monoxide poisoning www.ons.gov.uk/census/2011-census/2011-census- in each of the past five years. However, data are held questionnaire-content/question-and-content- on finished admission episodes, which are given in the recommendations-for-2011/index.html. table below. A finished admission episode is the first For information the proposed ethnic group questions period of in-patient care under one consultant within to be asked in England and in Wales are attached. one healthcare provider. Count of Hospital Admissions for “Toxic effect of carbon monoxide” for 2003-04 to 2007-08 Activity in English NHS Hospitals and English Crime: Legal Costs NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector Question * Total Admissions Asked by Lord Laird 2007-08 425 2006-07 457 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the 2005-06 415 average legal bill for criminal cases in Northern 2004-05 397 Ireland in the past three years; and what is the average legal bill for criminal cases in England and 2003-04 466 Wales in the past three years. [HL2001] WA 91 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 92

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry in theatre on the likelihood of spend in-year and in of Justice (Lord Bach): The information requested is accordance with priorities set by the tri-departmental not maintained in this format in Northern Ireland. programme board. While best efforts are made to Accordingly, the information has been presented in ensure that estimates of forecast expenditure are robust, the format in which it is retained in the two jurisdictions. the operational environment in which SAF projects This point was made to the Assembly Committee. The are delivered means that these can be subject to variation arrangements for handling very high cost cases are over time. also different in the two jurisdictions. In Northern By the Spring Supplementary Estimate (SSE), Ireland the costs for very high cost cases are reported estimated forecast expenditure indicated an imbalance as part of the overall Crown Court costs whereas in between DfID, MoD and the FCO, which transfers at England and Wales, with the separate contracting SSE sought to correct. Any reduction in forecast DfID arrangements, colleagues maintain a separate cost line project expenditure was matched by a reallocation of which they wish to report on. funds to other Iraq SAF projects. The average bills paid to solicitors and counsel in Crown Court cases in Northern Ireland for the past three years was as follows: Embryology Questions Financial Year Solicitor Counsel Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool 2005-06 £3,276 £4,324 2006-07 £4,888 £6,612 To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the 2007-08 £4,142 £4,872 Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on 29 October 2008 (WA167–68), what non-reproductive This means that typically the average defence cost applications would benefit from nuclear transfer for a Crown Court case in Northern Ireland in 2007-08 that have not been superseded by the use of induced would be between £9,015 and £13,887 depending on pluripotent stem (iPS) cells. [HL2052] the number of legal representatives assigned to the defendant. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, In England and Wales the estimated average legal Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The aid bills paid for a case during each of the past three Government believe that the question of whether one years in the Crown Court was as follows:* technique in stem cell research has superseded another is, at this stage, entirely premature. Advances over the Financial past decade in embryonic stem cell research have fed Year Category Average Cost into advances in induced pluripotent stem (iPS) cells. 2005-06 Prepared for trial, guilty plea or £6,900 Therefore, it is impossible to predict what the relative trial contributions of nuclear transfer and PS cell technology Very high cost case trials £395,000 might ultimately be to medical needs. That is why the 2006-07 Prepared for trial, guilty plea or £6,600 Government continue to support all forms of stem cell trial research. Very high cost case trials £427,000 Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool 2007-08 Prepared for trial, guilty plea or £6,100 trial To ask Her Majesty’s Government which licensed Very high cost case trials £530,00 centres and research projects have expressed interest * The figures exclude appeal and committal for sentence hearings in outgrowing human embryos; what were the purported intentions behind such proposals; and whether the stated objectives were achieved. Department for International [HL2054] Development: DEL To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Question human embryos have been used in research to date; what percentage of those were specifically created Asked by Baroness Northover for research purposes; and what percentage were To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the cultured for more than 14 days as outgrowing embryos. Written Answer by Lord Tunnicliffe on 9 March [HL2055] (WA200), what changes in forecast spending resulted in £917,000 being transferred back to the Ministry Lord Darzi of Denham: I have been advised by the of Defence. [HL2231] Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) that information on the number of embryos created The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry from the commencement of the Human Fertilisation of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The tri- and Embryology Act 1990 until 2006 has been published departmental Stabilisation Aid Fund (SAF) seeks to by the HFEA in A long-term analysis of the HFEA manage numerous projects, across a broad range of Register data (1991-2006) which is available on the strands, in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Money transferred HFEA website at www.hfea.gov.uk/docs/HFEA_long_ at parliamentary estimates reflects latest forecast term_data_91-06_versionl_revision4.pdf. expenditure by departments, based on judgments made A copy has been placed in the Library. WA 93 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 94

The HFEA does not hold information centrally and Embryology Authority has demonstrated that about the percentages of embryos specifically created embryos cultured for more than 14 days could not for research and which were cultured as outgrowing develop a primitive streak when the authority’s embryos. HFEA inspection reports record information Scientific and Clinical Advances Advisory Committee about the research projects being undertaken at any is of the view that primitive streak-cells may be particular centre. The inspection reports are available detected. [HL2128] on the HFEA website. Lord Darzi of Denham: The Human Fertilisation Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool and Embryology Authority (HFEA) has advised me To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the that its Scientific and Clinical Advances Committee is Written Answers by Lord Darzi of Denham on of the view that although the embryonic masses that 9 March (WA 204–5), why an embryo that has been form when embryos outgrow their structure would not left to outgrow for more than 14 days is no longer develop a primitive streak, it is possible that primitive considered to be an embryo by the Human Fertilisation streak like cells may be detectable. The HFEA and its and Embryology Authority, if every embryo created Scientific and Clinical Advances Committee are as in the laboratory otherwise falls within regulation, one on this question. regardless of its potential for development. Minutes of the committee’s meetings are published [HL2056] on the HFEA’s website. To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answers by Lord Darzi of Denham on Equality 21 April 2008 (WA233–34) and 9 March (WA204–5), Question why a relationship between extra-embryonic and Asked by Lord Laird embryonic tissue is considered by the Human To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on to be pivotal to the definition of an embryo grown 24 February (WA 40) concerning their policy to for more than 14 days when a cloned embryo that promote anti-discrimination measures in other lacks the potential to form extra-embryonic tissue countries, what representations they have made to is considered as an embryo within the HFEA’s the Republic of Ireland since 1997 concerning human regulatory remit. [HL2057] rights in that country. [HL1824]

Lord Darzi of Denham: I refer the noble Lord to the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Answer I gave on 10 February 2009 (WA 176).Ihave Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The Government have nothing further to add to that Answer. made no formal representations to the Government of Ireland since 1997 concerning human rights. However, Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool human rights issues have been discussed, at ministerial To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many and official level, during meetings of the British-Irish couples leave human embryos for research or for Inter-governmental Conference since its establishment the use of other couples. [HL2127] in 1999. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Food: Labelling human embryos are destroyed or experimented upon in the United Kingdom each year; of those, how Question many are destroyed when couples terminate their Asked by Lord Dykes relationship; and how many are destroyed after one To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment partner in a relationship withdraws their consent they have made of origin labelling of food products for embryos to remain stored. [HL2129] through (a) voluntary supermarket reporting schemes; To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many and (b) new laws. [HL2177] human embryos are currently stored in the United Kingdom; and what research they have commissioned The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, about the effects of long-term storage of human Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The embryos on the viability of the embryo. [HL2130] Food Standards Agency published voluntary best practice guidance on origin labelling in 2002. This guidance aims to establish clear and transparent origin labelling Lord Darzi of Denham: The Human Fertilisation across the food sector. Uptake of the guidance was and Embryology Authority has advised me that the reviewed in 2006 and the guidance was revised and information requested is not collected for retention on re-issued in 2008. The Government are keen to encourage its register. further uptake of this guidance and as part of this will The department has conducted a literature review be commissioning further work this year to assess and has consulted a researcher in the field as to the industry uptake of the guidance. safety of the cryopreservation of embryos. Food labelling is an area of European Commission Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool competence. A food information regulation was proposed by the Commission in 2008 and is being discussed in To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the both the European Parliament and the European Council. Written Answer by Lord Darzi of Denham on Discussions are at an early stage on the origin labelling 9 March (WA 204–05), how the Human Fertilisation elements of the proposal. WA 95 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 96

Foreign Policy The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Question Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The Asked by Viscount Waverley Government are aware of the work that the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust does in promoting the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they are conservation of game and wildlife, and conducting accountable to Parliament for their foreign policy research into game and wildlife management. decisions; and whether they have considered alternative additional mechanisms to increase accountability. Wildlife management, which necessarily encompasses [HL2288] elements of both protection and control, is vital to maintain healthy populations of our native species. We support all efforts to manage other interests, such The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth as game, in a way that is mutually beneficial to both Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Ministers are held to that interest and wildlife. account for foreign policy decisions through all the normal mechanisms: debates in both Houses; Parliamentary Questions; the work of Select Committees, Gypsies and Travellers security committees and the Intelligence and Security Question Committee. It would be for Parliament to decide whether additional mechanisms are needed. Asked by Baroness Whitaker To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the G20: Conference results for the health of Gypsies and Travellers Question from the Pacesetters programme. [HL2188] Asked by Lord Judd The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Through they are taking to ensure that fair trade and economic the Pacesetters programme, the department is working justice for poor countries is on the agenda of the with 18 National Health Service organisations and G20 meeting in London on 2 April. [HL1972] local communities in different parts of England to improve the health status of Gypsies and Travellers. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The work is based on a range of projects aimed at Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We are keen to ensure raising the awareness of NHS staff to the needs and that the voices of developing regions are heard at the circumstances of these communities, improving access London summit of G20 leaders. That is why we decided to primary and secondary care, and ensuring that to invite Prime Minister Meles of Ethiopia as chair of individual health records for community members are New Economic Partnership for African Development up-to-date. The projects are being evaluated by the and Prime Minister Abhisit in his capacity as the chair University of Sheffield and results will become available of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations. Jean in 2010-11. Evidenced good practice and learning will Ping, of the African Union (AU) Commission, and be disseminated widely throughout the NHS. Dr Surin, chair of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, will also accompany further to extend the Health: HIV/AIDS representation from developing regions. I attended the AU summit at the end of February to seek views from Questions African Leaders directly. Asked by Earl Howe We recognise the importance of protecting the poorest during the economic downturn and are pushing for a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress renewed and strengthened commitment to refrain from has been made in providing training for all clinicians protectionist measures, with a monitoring mechanism in primary and relevant secondary care settings to to hold countries to account for this pledge. Actions at identify risk and the early symptoms of HIV infection, the London summit to stabilise the financial system in line with new United Kingdom national HIV and build foundations for sustaining and strengthening testing guidelines. [HL2027] global growth are essential in order to achieve this. In To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in that sense it will be more important to ensure that light of the new United Kingdom national HIV growth during the economic recovery helps the poor testing guidelines, training will be provided for all as well as helping more developed countries. healthcare professionals in primary and relevant secondary care settings on HIV testing to increase Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust the numbers of people diagnosed and decrease the Question proportion of those diagnosed late. [HL2028] Asked by Lord Dykes The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The will respond to the Game and Wildlife Conservation department funded the production of a guide, HIV for Trust’s campaign to enhance management of game non-HIV specialists: Diagnosing the undiagnosed, published and wildlife rather than traditional protection. in 2008, by the Medical Foundation for AIDS And [HL2123] Sexual Health (MedFASH) . Following this publication, WA 97 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 98 the department is also funding MedFASH for a linked Lord Malloch-Brown: The Government have not project Tackling HIV testing in healthcare settings, worked with any stakeholders in promoting human aimed at increasing HIV testing in non-HIV specialist rights in Ireland. settings. To support the rollout of the UK National Guidelines Internet: Radical Websites for HIV Testing 2008, produced by the British HIV Question Association, the British Association of Sexual Health and HIV and the British Infection Society, the department Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours is funding eight new pilot projects to explore HIV To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many testing in a variety of settings, in order to reduce the radicalisation websites they, or the police authorities, level of undiagnosed HIV and late diagnosis of HIV have taken down. [HL2076] in the population. The department also supported the publication of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home HIV in Primary Care, an essential guide to HIV for Office (Lord West of Spithead): The legislation that GPs, practice nurses and other members of the primary allows a request to be made that unlawfully terrorism- care team, also produced by MedFASH in 2004. related material is modified or removed from the internet is Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2006. Section 3 allows for the service of a notice by a constable, where HMS “Vanguard” he or she is of the opinion that unlawfully terrorism-related Question material is available on an electronic service such as a Asked by Lord Dykes website, on the person(s) responsible for that material. The notice requires that the unlawfully terrorism-related To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the material is removed or modified within two working result of the Ministry of Defence inquiry into the days. collision in early February of the nuclear submarine However, the preferred route of the police is to use vessels HMS “Vanguard” and “Le Triomphant” in informal contact with the communication service providers the Bay of Biscay; and whether the conclusions will to request that the material is removed. To date no be made public. [HL2124] Section 3 notices have been issued as this informal route has proved effective but statistics covering the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry number of sites removed through such informal contact of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The report of are not collected. the inquiry into the incident involving HMS “Vanguard” and “Le Triomphant” is expected shortly. My right Media: Interviews honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence Question will then consider what and how to report to Parliament, bearing in mind the need to protect information in the Asked by Lord Laird interests of national security. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will ban the filming of media interviews while the interviewee is driving a vehicle on a public road; Human Rights and what representations they have made to the Questions television industry on that issue. [HL2136] Asked by Lord Laird The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 11 March Carter of Barnes): Under current broadcasting (WA 257) concerning their assessment of human arrangements, responsibility for what is broadcast on rights in foreign countries, what representations television and radio rests with the broadcasters and they have made to the Government of the Republic the organisations that regulate broadcasting—the Office of Ireland concerning that Government’s policy of of Communications (Ofcom), the BBC Trust and the only allowing Irish speakers to live in certain areas Welsh Fourth Channel Authority (S4C). It is a long- of the country and to obtain employment in the standing principle that the Government do not interfere public sector. [HL2208] in programme matters, either on arrangements for scheduling or on content. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The Government have Passports made no representations to the Government of Ireland Question on this matter. Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 10 March Written Answer by Lord Davies of Oldham on (WA 236–37) concerning passports issued in the 13 March (WA 287), which stakeholders they work Republic of Ireland, in what form the records of with to promote human rights in the Republic of applications for British passports received at the Ireland. [HL2262] British embassy in Dublin are held; who calculated WA 99 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 100

that the cost of providing the information would be Pensions disproportionate; what is that cost; and on what Question basis it was calculated. [HL2140] Asked by Baroness Thomas of Winchester To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the average time between application and payment of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth pension credit in each month of the past two years; Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The records of passport and what was the average time taken to complete applications received at our embassy in Dublin are the processing of pension credit claims from when held in paper form and also on the electronic passport the initial application was received in each month issuing system. of the past two years, broken down by pension The electronic system is not configured to calculate centre. [HL1693] the number of people with addresses in the Republic of Ireland granted British passports, as requested by The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the noble Lord in his earlier Question. This would Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of have to be done manually by checking all 53,222 of the Luton): Data on the clearance times of pension credit, paper applications for British passports issued by our measured from the initial date of contact, are currently embassy in Dublin over the past five years. not reported. The disproportionate cost threshold is set at £700. The tables below detail the average actual clearance Consular Directorate at the Foreign and Commonwealth time (AACT) for pension credit, monthly for the past Office assessed that the additional work required to two years, by pension centre. The AACT is calculated manually search for this information would breach by dividing the total number of working days taken to this threshold. clear cases by the total number of cases cleared.

Pension Credit Clearance Times Average Actual Clearance Time National Target—15 Days National Burnley Cwmbran Dundee Leicester London

Mar 07 16.4 17.2 13.3 14.5 14.4 21.1 Apr 07 15.7 16.2 11.5 14.8 17.1 19.5 May 07 15.0 15.0 9.2 14.4 19.9 17.7 Jun 07 15.0 14.9 8.9 13.6 20.4 16.0 Jul 07 16.8 14.5 9.3 15.3 21.3 15.3 Aug 07 16.5 15.9 9.4 14.1 26.0 13.7 Sep 07 16.7 17.2 9.8 13.2 25.2 12.3 Oct 07 15.4 13.3 8.3 11.1 25.9 10.2 Nov 07 15.8 11.5 8.1 11.2 31.7 11.4 Dec 07 16.3 12.5 8.7 13.3 23.4 13.8 Jan 08 16.3 11.8 9.6 12.3 17.1 14.6 Feb 08 14.8 10.4 9.7 11.4 14.5 13.4 Mar 08 13.2 10.6 9.3 10.7 12.8 12.5 Apr 08 14.2 11.5 9.4 12.4 14.1 13.3 May 08 14.1 11.3 9.3 11.6 16.8 12.3 Jun 08 14.5 11.7 9.2 11.8 17.5 11.8 Jul 08 15.6 10.9 8.9 12.2 18.7 12.7 Aug 08 14.9 10.2 9.4 11.9 16.0 11.6 Sep 08 14.1 10.1 9.0 11.8 22.0 12.9 Oct 08 13.8 11.6 8.9 14.6 21.0 12.1 Nov 08 14.8 13.7 9.5 16.9 14.7 13.6 Dec 08 14.9 13.7 9.1 17.8 14.7 14.9 Jan 09 16.5 16.6 9.3 22.6 14.0 14.5 Feb 09 15.8 16.6 9.5 19.5 13.8 13.5

Pension Credit Clearance Times Average Actual Clearance Time National Target—15 Days Motherwell Seaham Stockport Swansea Warrington

Mar 07 15.4 15.1 23.9 13.9 17.0 Apr 07 13.9 15.0 20.8 14.5 15.2 May 07 15.8 14.8 17.8 12.1 15.5 Jun 07 16.0 17.4 19.0 10.4 16.6 Jul 07 18.2 16.2 23.7 12.3 19.2 Aug 07 17.0 13.9 22.7 13.2 18.7 WA 101 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 102

Pension Credit Clearance Times Average Actual Clearance Time National Target—15 Days Motherwell Seaham Stockport Swansea Warrington

Sep 07 14.4 14.8 25.6 14.6 18.4 Oct 07 11.8 15.3 25.1 16.6 16.5 Nov 07 11.6 16.6 22.5 15.1 15.0 Dec 07 12.7 17.0 25.2 17.4 16.0 Jan 08 15.1 20.1 26.2 16.9 15.1 Feb 08 14.8 16.8 24.8 17.3 12.1 Mar 08 12.3 12.6 20.0 16.8 11.6 Apr 08 13.4 12.6 19.0 16.4 16.0 May 08 14.8 11.3 18.6 17.8 15.4 Jun 08 18.1 10.9 17.5 17.8 17.7 Jul 08 16.9 11.4 20.6 19.3 21.1 Aug 08 15.8 11.5 20.5 17.9 19.2 Sep 08 15.1 12.3 18.3 14.0 15.5 Oct 08 15.3 13.3 17.0 12.0 15.0 Nov 08 17.0 15.8 17.3 12.6 16.5 Dec 08 17.0 14.3 16.5 13.6 15.5 Jan 09 18.7 14.3 18.4 14.2 16.7 Feb 09 21.1 12.2 13.8 15.4 17.7

Source: Private Finance Initiative Management Information System Programme Question Asked by Lord Marlesford Police: Race and Gender Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government which hospitals have been constructed under the private finance Asked by Lord Ouseley initiative, or its successor schemes, in the past ten years; To ask Her Majesty’s Government what expertise on what dates the construction of each such hospital exists in Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary started and completed; what was the total cost of to inspect workforce issues from a race and gender each; and what are the current annual interest payments perspective; and what account is taken of the views due to the financiers. [HL2194] of stakeholders and interest groups representing black and minority ethnic and women’s equality The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, interests. [HL2108] Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Information on the capital value and estimated revenue The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home payments for the lifetime of each completed private Office (Lord West of Spithead): The workforce finance initiative (PFI) scheme together with the start productivity inspection in the Police Service “Working on site and opening dates has been placed in the for the Public” will be conducted by HMIC in 2010. Library. During 2009 HMIC will be designing the methodology for this major inspection. Stakeholders will be consulted, The revenue payments are the annual payments and staff with the appropriate skills and background made by National Health Service trusts to their private will be recruited. sector partners. This is to cover the cost of the funding raised by the contractors on the project (known as senior debt) in terms of financing charges and repayment Police: Training of principal, building maintenance, lifecycle costs and, Question in many cases, non-clinical support services such as cleaning, laundry, catering, portering and security. On Asked by Lord Harris of Haringey an annualised basis, the cost of the funding, comprising To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps finance charges and principal in varying proportions, are being taken to ensure that the training and skills accounts for approximately 50 per cent of the annual of police officers working as part of (a) the British payment for a scheme including non-clinical services. Transport Police, (b) the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, PFI schemes are normally funded by two types of and (c) the Ministry of Defence Police are consistent senior debt finance; traditional fixed rate project finance with those of other police forces. [HL2103] (a bank loan) and index linked bonds, priced by reference to bank and gilts rates respectively. Each source of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home debt finance has its relative merits and their prices Office (Lord West of Spithead): Training is available to move in relation to each other depending on market these non-Home Office police forces via the National conditions. Decisions on the preferred source are made Policing Improvement Agency. However, there are no as part of the value for money calculation by the trust specific mandatory training programmes. and its private sector partner at the time of preparing WA 103 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2009] Written Answers WA 104 the full business case (FBC). To these rates is then Transport for London is responsible for picking added a margin, which is an annual charge pricing the litter on the A13 between Wennington and Dagenham. risks in the project. Both funding routes also involve a The litter on this section of road is picked twice a number of costs associated with arranging and week, with the last dates being 10 and 16 March 2009. maintaining the funding for a scheme such as arrangement Transport for London has programmed to pick litter and commitment fees. The combination of rates, margins at these locations again on 18 and 19 March 2009. and fees is the overall financing charge—the equivalent Asked by Lord Marlesford of an interest payment. The overall financing charges therefore vary from To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they scheme to scheme and depend on several factors. use clearing litter from Britain’s roads as a job Information on financing charges is contained in the creation opportunity. [HL2197] FBC for each scheme, which must be made publicly available following its approval. The financing charges are modelled for each year of the term of the loan in The Minister of State, Department of Energy and the financial models which are contained in the FBC Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and are fixed for the public sector, but these may differ and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): Local from the actual charges incurred in any year by the authorities have a legal duty to keep all public land private sector (the risk sits with the senior debt provider and roads within their boundaries clear of litter and and contractors). The information on the actual finance refuse with the Highways Agency having similar duties charges paid in any one year for all PFI schemes which for the motorway network. These duty bodies make have opened could be obtained only at disproportionate decisions on the numbers of staff required to deliver cost. effective service.

Public Bodies Shipping: Employment Question Question Asked by Lord Selsdon Asked by Lord Dykes To ask Her Majesty’s Government which members To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of the House of Lords are appointees to the non- have made any proposals to representatives of United departmental public bodies listed under “Ministry Kingdom ports and shipping services to increase of Defence” in annex A to the report of the Cabinet job creation through public sector initiatives during Office entitled Public Bodies 2008; and what was the present slowdown in economic activity. [HL2225] their appointment and individual remuneration. [HL1887] The Minister of State, Department for Transport The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry (Lord Adonis): The United Kingdom ports and shipping of Defence (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): Information industries operate in a competitive international on board membership and remuneration is published environment. The Government recognise the vital role in individual bodies’ annual reports and accounts. that ports and shipping play in supporting the economy and delivering a sustainable transport system. They provide support to the sector by minimising Roads: Litter regulatory burdens rather than promoting public sector Questions initiatives. Asked by Lord Marlesford To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the litter was last cleared from the verges of (a) the M25 Shipping: Irish Lights between the junctions 28 and 30, and (b) the A13 Question between the M25 and Dagenham; and when they Asked by Lord Berkeley are next scheduled to be cleared. [HL2196] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the The Minister of State, Department for Transport Written Answer by Lord Adonis on 12 January (Lord Adonis): The Highways Agency cleared litter (WA 127), to what extent the Answer took account from the verges of the M25 between junctions 28 and of the General Lighthouse Fund annual report and 30 between 17 and 21 January 2009 and has been accounts 2007–08 in respect of the number of Trinity picking litter again since 9 March. This work is due to House board members paid more than £70,000 and finish on 20 March 2009. less than £100,000 and the number of board members The Highways Agency has programmed to pick of the Commissioners of Irish Lights paid more litter between these locations again in April 2009. than £100,000. [HL2273] Thurrock Council is responsible for picking litter on the A13 between the M25 and Wennington. The The Minister of State, Department for Transport litter on this section of road was last picked between (Lord Adonis): My reply to the noble Lord on 12 January 2 and 10 March 2009. Thurrock Council has programmed 2009 reported the position of salary levels for board to pick litter again between 23 March and 2 April members of Trinity House and the Commissioners of 2009. Irish Lights in post as at 31 March 2008. WA 105 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 106

The General Lighthouse Fund annual report and Terrorism accounts 2007-08 published subsequently relate to the Questions whole financial year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. The 2007-08 report and accounts included an Asked by Baroness Neville-Jones additional termination payment to a former board To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they member of Trinity House who retired in May 2007. have taken forward the proposal to establish the post of Independent Commissioner for Terrorist Suspects, as agreed during the passage of the Counter- Skin Microflora Terrorism Act 2008; and when they will announce Question an appointment. [HL2215] Asked by Lord Lucas The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support Office (Lord West of Spithead): We are continuing to they are providing to research into the use of probiotics consider how to meet the commitment to establish an to rebalance human skin microflora. [HL2075] independent commissioner for terrorist suspects. Asked by Baroness Neville-Jones The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): Neither “quality concerns” that resulted in the decision by the department’s National Institute for Health Research the National Statistician and Home Office Chief nor the Medical Research Council (MRC) is currently Scientific Adviser to postpone publication of Statistical funding research into the use of probiotics to rebalance Bulletin on Terrorism Arrests and Outcomes (Great human skin microflora. Britain), 11 September 2001 to 31 March 2008, The MRC contributes to the Diet and Health Research which was originally to be published on 12 March Industry Club. This is a £10 million, five-year partnership 2009. [HL2216] between the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council and a consortium of leading companies, Lord West of Spithead: The National Statistician aimed at helping the food industry to develop products and the Home Office Chief Scientific Adviser have that deliver enhanced health benefits for consumers. professional responsibility for the quality of statistical The MRC has committed to fund research projects information published by the Home Office. The report that fall within its remit although to date none has was postponed in the light of concern expressed to covered probiotics. them in the final quality assurance process about the accuracy of some information included. The bulletin will be published once these data have Smoking been verified. Question UN: International Covenant on Enforced Asked by Lord Laird Disappearance To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals Question they have to reduce the amount of on-screen smoking Asked by Lord Avebury in television dramas in the United Kingdom. [HL2135] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 14 November 2007 (WA 20), what progress has Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord been made since that date in satisfying the conditions Carter of Barnes): Under current broadcasting for ratification of the International Covenant for arrangements, responsibility for what is broadcast on the Protection of All Persons from Enforced television and radio rests with the broadcasters and Disappearance; what conditions remain to be fulfilled; the organisations that regulate broadcasting—the Office and how long it will take to fulfil each condition. of Communications (Ofcom), the BBC Trust and the [HL2226] Welsh Fourth Channel Authority (S4C). It is a long- The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth standing principle that the Government do not interfere Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The Government are in programme matters, either on arrangements for currently examining the potential impact of the convention scheduling or on content. against enforced disappearance on the law of the UK. The depiction of smoking in television programmes In particular, lawyers are analysing the extent to is already strictly controlled. Section 1.10 of Ofcom’s which common law provisions may need to be replicated broadcasting code sets out the rules on the portrayal in statute law, and the introduction of one or more of smoking on television. Under these rules smoking specific criminal offences. If the Government decide must not be featured in programmes made primarily to ratify the convention, these changes to the law for children—unless there is strong editorial justification. would require primary legislation, which would be Similarly smoking must generally be avoided and in introduced when parliamentary time allowed. Decisions any case must not be condoned, encouraged or glamorised would also need to be taken in due course on whether in other programmes broadcast before the watershed, the UK required any reservations or declarations upon or in other programmes likely to be widely seen or ratification. These are complex issues requiring further heard by under eighteens unless there is editorial consideration and analysis which will take some time justification. to complete. Monday 23 March 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Gurkha Pensions ...... 27 Food and Environment Research Agency...... 31 Highways Agency: Business Plan...... 34 Education: Adult Learning...... 27 NHS: Private Care...... 34 EU: General Affairs and External Relations Council ...... 28 Ports: Business Rates ...... 35

Monday 23 March 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 87 HMS “Vanguard”...... 97

Agriculture: Genetically Modified Crops...... 87 Human Rights ...... 97

Armed Forces: Nimrod...... 87 Internet: Radical Websites ...... 98

Aviation: Safety ...... 88 Media: Interviews ...... 98

Bees ...... 89 Passports ...... 98

Carbon Monoxide Poisoning...... 89 Pensions...... 100

Census ...... 90 Police: Race and Gender...... 101

Crime: Legal Costs ...... 90 Police: Training...... 101

Department for International Development: DEL ...... 91 Private Finance Initiative ...... 102

Embryology ...... 92 Public Bodies ...... 103

Equality...... 94 Roads: Litter...... 103 Shipping: Employment ...... 104 Food: Labelling ...... 94 Shipping: Irish Lights ...... 104 Foreign Policy...... 95 Skin Microflora ...... 105 G20: Conference...... 95 Smoking ...... 105 Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust ...... 95 Terrorism ...... 106 Gypsies and Travellers ...... 96 UN: International Covenant on Enforced Health: HIV/AIDS ...... 96 Disappearance ...... 106 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL1693] ...... 100 [HL2001] ...... 90

[HL1824] ...... 94 [HL2027] ...... 96

[HL1887] ...... 103 [HL2028] ...... 96

[HL1950] ...... 89 [HL2031] ...... 87

[HL1972] ...... 95 [HL2043] ...... 87 Col. No. Col. No. [HL2052] ...... 92 [HL2140] ...... 99

[HL2054] ...... 92 [HL2177] ...... 94

[HL2055] ...... 92 [HL2188] ...... 96

[HL2056] ...... 93 [HL2191] ...... 87

[HL2057] ...... 93 [HL2192] ...... 88

[HL2075] ...... 105 [HL2194] ...... 102

[HL2076] ...... 98 [HL2196] ...... 103

[HL2087] ...... 90 [HL2197] ...... 104

[HL2103] ...... 101 [HL2208] ...... 97

[HL2108] ...... 101 [HL2215] ...... 106

[HL2123] ...... 95 [HL2223] ...... 88

[HL2124] ...... 97 [HL2225] ...... 104

[HL2127] ...... 93 [HL2226] ...... 106

[HL2128] ...... 94 [HL2231] ...... 91

[HL2129] ...... 93 [HL2242] ...... 89

[HL2130] ...... 93 [HL2262] ...... 97

[HL2135] ...... 105 [HL2273] ...... 104

[HL2136] ...... 98 [HL2288] ...... 95 Volume 709 Monday No. 52 23 March 2009

CONTENTS

Monday 23 March 2009 Introduction: The Lord Bishop of Bradford ...... 441 Questions Schools: Performance Tables ...... 441 Vehicles: Tax and Duty...... 443 Housing: Home Information Packs...... 446 Railways: Franchises...... 448 Legislative Reform (Supervision of Alcohol Sales in Church and Village Halls &c.) Order 2009 Renewables Obligation Order 2009 Motions to Approve...... 450 Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL] Report (Second Day) ...... 450 European Council: 19-20 March 2009 Statement...... 461 Constitution: Rights and Responsibilities Statement...... 471 Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL] Report (Second Day) (continued)...... 485 NHS: Doctors Question for Short Debate ...... 518 Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL] Report (Second Day) (continued)...... 529 Grand Committee Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 2009...... GC 149 Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Order 2009...... GC 156 Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating (Northern Ireland) Order 2009...... GC 156 Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2009...... GC 156 Occupational Pension Schemes (Levy Ceiling) Order 2009 ...... GC 167 Pension Protection Fund (Pension Compensation Cap) Order 2009 ...... GC 175 Financial Assistance Scheme and Incapacity Benefit (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2009...... GC 175 Occupational Pension Schemes (Contracting-out) (Amendment) Regulations 2009...... GC 180 European Parliamentary Elections (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 ...... GC 186 European Parliamentary Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009...... GC 191 Debated Written Statements...... WS 27 Written Answers...... WA 8 7