An Interview with

Hardin C. Cox

at his insurance office in

Rock Port, Missouri

04 June 2001

interviewed by N. Renae Farris

Oral History Program The State Historical Society of Missouri © 2001

Collection C3929 Politics in Missouri a.c. 290, 291

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PREFACE

Hardin C. Cox was born March 4, 1928 in Rock Port. After entering the University of Missouri-Columbia, his studies were interrupted by his voluntary military service in the Occupation Forces of Japan. Upon his return, Cox completed his education, earning a Bachelor of Science degree in business and public administration. He then was called back into the military, his duty this time being in Korea. Once his service was completed, Cox entered the insurance business that had been established by his grandfather. As a Democrat, Cox was first elected to the Missouri House of Representatives in 1964 and served there for five consecutive terms. He won his district‟s vote to become a Missouri State Senator in 1974, and was re-elected in 1978. For his most recent biographic entry, see the Official Manual of the State of Missouri, 1981-1982, page 58.

The recording session took place in his Rock Port insurance office. While I was there a steady stream of visitors entered the premises, indicating an active business. Among the topics we discussed were events from his political career in both legislative chambers, memorable representatives and senators, the “unwritten rules” of the legislature, reapportionment, ERA, Daylight Savings Time legislation, and his work on varied committees.

The interview was recorded on Sony C60-HFB audio cassettes (normal bias), using a Sony TC-D5 ProII manual recorder and a Shure VP64 omnidirectional microphone attached to a floor stand. Throughout the interview there were background noises that occasionally interfered with sound clarity, but in general the recording is of very good quality.

The following transcript represents a rendering of the oral history interview. Stylistic alterations have been made as part of a general transcription policy. The interviewee offered clarifications and suggestions, which the following transcript reflects. Any use of plain brackets [ ] indicates editorial insertions not found on the original audio recordings. Physical gestures, certain vocal inflections such as imitation, and/or pauses are designated by a combination of italics and brackets [ ]. Any use of parentheses ( ) indicates a spoken aside evident from the speaker's intonation, or laughter. Quotation marks [“”] identify speech depicting dialogue, speech patterns, or the initial use of nicknames. Double dashes [--] and ellipses […] are also used as a stylistic method in an attempt to capture nuances of dialogue or speech patterns. Words are italicized when emphasized in speech. Particularly animated speech is identified with bold lettering. Underlining [ __ ]indicates a proper title of a publication. Although substantial care has been taken to render this transcript as accurately as possible, any remaining errors are the responsibility of the editor, N. Renae Farris.

[tape meter, 001. Begin side one, tape one. Begin interview]

RF: Today is June 4, 2001. I‟m Renae Farris for the State Historical Society. [I‟m] in Rock

Port, Missouri speaking with Hardin Cox, who was in the Missouri House of

Representatives from 1965 through 1973 and then he was elected to the Missouri Senate

in ‟74 and served through 1983. Am I correct?

HC: Correct.

RF: Okay, could you start out by telling me a little bit about yourself? A little biographical

information before we go into politics?

HC: I was born here in Rock Port, so I‟m a native. Went to school here and high school. And

then from here I went to the University [of Missouri - Columbia]. I played football at the

university. Played in the Cotton Bowl when I was a freshman but that was the time when

a lot of the boys hadn‟t returned from [military] service yet, and so we got to play as

freshmen. Then I went into the service myself. I volunteered and went into service and

served in Japan in the Army of Occupation. The war [World War II] was over then.

Went back to the university and got my degree. I also went into ROTC [Reserve Officers

Training Corps] and got my officers (second lieutenant) commission and was

immediately called back into service to go to Korea. I served in Korea [from]

Thanksgiving of ‟52 to the end of the war and then returned here. My father and I were

in [the insurance] business together until he died, and then I carried on with the business

until ‟65, or ‟64 actually. I had run for office the two years before that. And that was my

first attempt and I got beat! (Chuckles)

RF: The House of Representatives?

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 1

HC: [Nodding affirmatively] For the House of Representatives. A fourteen-year incumbent

[Fred R. McMahon] beat me, and I did about everything wrong you could do! (Laughs)

But I learned from it! So then I ran against the same person, a very nice gentleman and

won that next time. Then the next term that was coming up two years later, they had re-

apportionment. Instead of serving just one county, they tacked on Holt County and

Andrew County, both of which were extremely Republican counties! (Chuckles) Which

wasn‟t my choice! But we worked real hard on that campaign [and] won it by thirty-four

votes. Somebody kidded about it, called me “landslide”. (Laughs) Then I ran there two

more times, and then finally they changed the district to number twelve. Changed the

numbers again, reapportioned again. [I] won that for my fifth term in the House. Then I

decided I either had to get out or go up or something! So I ran for the twelfth senatorial

district which came from here (which is the farthest northwest county in the state) clear to

within one county of the Mississippi [River] which was Schuyler County. And it was a

huge territory -- fifteen counties. Did win that fairly well. Ran against an incumbent,

won that. And served until they had another re-apportionment. Then I got some of Clay

County in that new shuffle, and I lost to Congresswoman Pat Danner. She‟d been an AA

[administrative assistant] for Congressman Jerry Litton. [The addition of] Clay County, I

think that [was a factor in Danner‟s win.] And she was a Catholic, and Nodaway County

was pretty Catholic. That was when the abortion issue was strong and the ERA [Equal

Rights Amendment] was strong. Evidently that hurt me some. It was a bitter campaign.

But that‟s when I returned home to go to work.

RF: Did you have any role models growing up?

2 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

HC: Well, yes. I was kind of involved in politics. My brother and my dad and my

grandfather also had the paper here. So if you‟re involved with the paper, you‟re usually

involved in politics. I had met Harry Truman. He was up to our house and visited when

he was running for [U.S.] Senate. Bill Hull, who was a Congressman and a close friend

of the family‟s, had been in Washington [D.C.]. I forget how many terms he was in D.C.,

but quite a number. He was a good friend and kind of was an inspiration, I guess you‟d

say. [U.S.] Senator [Thomas] Eagleton I served with in Jeff [Jefferson] City when he was

Lieutenant Governor and also when he was [a U.S.] senator.

[tape meter, 050]

[U.S.] Senator Stuart Symington was a very close friend, and came here. In fact, Senator

Eagleton and Senator Symington both were the speakers at testimonials I had when I was

running for the [Missouri] Senate. So I had the inclination and the people that kind of

made me lean that way toward getting into politics.

RF: What made you decide to run as a Democrat as opposed to a Republican?

HC: Born and raised. When I was younger, there was hardly any ticket splitting in those days.

Of course, running for the territory that I ran in most of my time, I was running against

the stream because most of my district was a little more Republican. In fact, when I had

the twelfth senatorial district, quite a lot Republican. About two-to-one Republican

district. I always said either I had to be an awful good liar, or I did a good job. And I

didn‟t know which!

RF and HC: (Chuckling)

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 3

RF: When you went into the legislature, you were probably only about thirty-six, thirty-seven

years old?

HC: Yes.

RF: That was sort of young in that era. Most of the legislators were older than that, weren‟t

they?

HC: They were. The first term, of course, each county had a representative and many of those

people had been elected time and time again. But I was very fortunate. There were three

or four of the older fellows that kind of took me under their wing and they guided

through and helped me wherever I needed it. I had no problem associating with those

older people. I‟ve always been friendly to older people. It just really worked out very,

very good for me.

RF: Did any one of them stand out in particular?

HC: Two or three! Probably Howard Masters, who came from Nodaway County, and Bob

Frost who came from (I think) Platte (I‟m not sure of that - that‟s quite a while ago)1 and

Tom Graham (who was the Speaker of the House at that time) was a real inspiration. He

just died this last year and was a wonderful, wonderful person. And [he] liked me. We

got along just real well. So they were very influential in my dealings with the other

members.

RF: Did you run into the “unwritten rules” of the House?

HC: Oh, yes! That‟s what hits you right in the face the first time! (Laughs) Hits you pretty

quick if you‟re paying attention! And I found I didn‟t have any problem with that

1 Representative Robert H. Frost served Clinton County.

4 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

particular thing. Freshmen didn‟t get real good committee assignments, but you expected

that. And you didn‟t get a lot of bills heard, and you learned who to trust. The first thing

that I learned that was not written (as you say the unwritten rules), you learn about the

lobbyists real quick -- who the ones [are] that you can totally trust, who are the ones that

are just sort of [gesturing, indicating “so-so”], and then some of them that you didn‟t

want to have anything to do with! With these older fellows helping me, that became

invaluable to me, because probably contrary to what the public thinks all lobbyists are

not bad. There [are] some of them you have to rely on because when you have 1,500

bills (and I think that‟s about what we had my first year), having their knowledge of their

industry, you can‟t know that much about everything! So if you can find people you can

trust and ask them the questions... It worked out beautiful and helped me make decisions

on that basis.

[tape meter, 092. Brief interruption. Interview resumes tape meter, 094]

RF: I believe the odds are pretty small for a freshman passing any bills, but you did manage to

do that. How did you manage that?

HC: Well, with the help of the old timers! (Chuckles) And Speaker Graham. One thing I did

when I first went in... We had what we called the “Blue Book” then. It changed colors

and now I don‟t know what color it is today. But they had the pictures of all the

representatives, 163 of them. I made it a point, since I didn‟t have a lot of committee

meetings as a freshman, of learning names and faces and putting them together. I would

guess, for the freshmen, I probably was the most well versed in “who was who” and

found out who did what and who had the power and so forth in the committees.

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 5

[tape meter, 100]

Regardless, the freshmen [were] always set right beside the Republicans. Republicans on

the left and Democrats on the right. But they always put those freshmen out here in the

middle right next to the Republicans. I never understood that! (Chuckles) They should

keep them away from them, because they [the Republicans] could influence [the

freshmen]! But I made friends with many Republicans. I still can remember Ronnie Belt

and Vernon Betz and just a lot of them! Oh, Bill Phelps. They sat close and we visited,

so you get to know them much better. Whenever I‟d see somebody I‟d say, “Hi, Joe” or

“Hi, Hank” or whatever it happened to be, and I feel like that gave me a great deal of help

in getting anything done.

RF: During your first year the main thing that was being debated (I gather anyway) was the

changeover from the county representative to that of a district.

HC: Oh, that was one of the biggies, certainly. Boy, there was a lot of bitter feeling about it!

For a little while I was a little bitter about it myself, just getting started. But you just had

to realize that that was coming and it was going to be part of life and it was fair, because

“one man, one vote” can‟t be too far out of line. But it was debated, hotly debated. I

didn‟t really get too deeply involved because I could see that it was the thing that was

going to happen sometime and I just happened to be at that place at that time. So it

wasn‟t as crushing to me as it was to some of those old timers that had been there twelve,

fourteen years and thought they owned that particular seat. But it wasn‟t any fun either,

because, like I said, I picked up two very Republican counties and I knew it would be

extremely tough. Then I got pitted against the Republican freshman of the year! Which

6 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

even made it worse, but we prevailed in the end. That and probably the other thing (and

I‟ll never forget this) was my first recorded vote. Warren Hearnes had become Governor,

and we had the death penalty. It was the first bill we had on the floor. We had a man on

Death Row who -- I forget whether he murdered or raped or did both, what his crime was

exactly -- but Governor Hearnes gave him a stay of execution until we voted. The people

that were wanting to do away with the [death penalty]... The guy that handled the bill

was a freshman, too, Jack Schramm from St. Louis. A peach of a guy, but we were just

on opposite sides. So my first recorded vote after being elected was whether to continue

the death penalty. Right after we did that, this gentleman was put to death. I don‟t think

he was a gentleman! (Chuckles) But anyway, that‟s what happened and that was one

vote that I‟ll [never forget]. Because it was pretty tough, being a Christian man and you

think about it and then you hear the arguments back and forth and I was young enough to

not be real familiar with it or anything. I had paid attention to it, I‟d heard of it, I knew of

it, but this was the closest connection that I ever had with it! So it was a tough vote! But

it was the first recorded vote.

Of course, anybody will tell you a recorded vote is a heck of a lot different than

holding up your hand and saying “aye” or “no”.

[tape meter, 150]

When they don‟t put it down in black and white and your name‟s there and there‟s what

you voted and you go home and you think “Well, I‟ve got to explain that to some

people.” Because there‟s some people... In any vote there‟s always a few that‟s just not

going to accept your feeling on it. In fact, I remember two or three votes where I was the

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 7

only one who voted against it. But I knew why I voted against it, so it didn‟t bother me

after [I was] a little more experienced about it.

RF: How did [H.F] “Pat” Patterson‟s death effect the legislature?

HC: That was really, really shocking, of course. “Pat” was a good friend of mine because he

was a friend of a cousin of mine that lived in Columbia. Of course, I got acquainted with

him right away. After the session [meetings], I think it was within the first two weeks or

something, I don‟t remember exactly, but I‟d gotten acquainted with him. Used to go to

the office after the session [meetings] and we‟d sit around and have a drink and talk about

the bills and what was going on, just kind of buddy-buddy. He kind of took me under his

wing. Boy! It was just a big boomer that just knocked everybody! Then right after

that... You know how government is -- you don‟t wait on anybody. You go right ahead.

We had to elect the Floor Leader to replace him. Well, Mel Carnahan was running and

the older boys [who were mostly] rural... It was kind of rural against city in those days

because we knew after reapportionment “one man, one vote” we weren‟t going to have as

much to say. So we got together and elected Mel Carnahan. He did a nice job. Very

good. He was very conscientious. But it really for about a week, a week and a half, or

something, it really kind of just threw things up in the air like you‟d throw a bunch of

papers up in the air. People were scrambling around and trying to figure out what was

going on and what to do.

RF: Another one of the things that you were involved in in the first few years that you were in

there would have been civil rights acts. Could you tell me a little bit about those?

8 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

HC: Didn‟t have much problem with that. See, when I was in the service the first time I

played football for the Eighth Army and we were integrated there. Even though Atchison

County only had one black person in the whole county, I just didn‟t seem to have [any

problems]. I went to school with them and I was in the Army with them and I didn‟t have

much problem with it. Of course, I just always felt like a human being is a human being.

Sometimes when we dealing with the Chinese in Korea we didn‟t feel that way.

(Chuckles) But at that time that wasn‟t one of the big problems for me, anyway. Now

maybe it was for some people that lived in the cities or something, I don‟t know. But

there it was, I accepted it, and went on.

RF: What about the Daylight Savings Time bill?

HC: Oh, that was a funny one! (Chuckles) That was hilarious! I happened to be on the

committee that heard the bill. You really felt sorry for some of these people. They just

did not understand. I remember one lady from the rural area came in and she testified her

hens weren’t going to lay eggs because of that! (Laughs) You just had to bite your

tongue to keep from laughing! And there were people that said, “Well, the crops won‟t

grow right. They‟ll grow, but they aren‟t going to grow right.” We had, I don‟t know,

probably a dozen different people that really, I mean were bitter about that thing! There

wasn‟t any question in my mind what we should do, having dealt with it during the war.

[tape meter, 200]

I see now California is talking about kicking theirs up another hour to save energy. It

makes sense to me. It really does. But it was kind of a fun one! (Chuckles) But once in

a while you‟d get home and go to a meeting and somebody would start [to say] [his voice

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 9

imitating a disgruntled speaker] “Why did you vote for that damned daylight savings?

Our kids are all going to be killed standing out there in the dark, and the buses are going

to get them!”

RF and HC: (Both laughing)

HC: I thought, “Oh, it‟s not going to be that bad, folks, and it‟s not going to be that good.”

And that‟s what I found out. That‟s one of the ways I found out that nearly every bill,

Renae, is that way. It‟s never as good as the people the want it, and it‟s never as bad as

the people that don‟t want it. That kind of guided me through a lot of tough decisions

and it‟s really been helpful because you know that‟s true.

RF: I‟ve been sort of rude here. You‟d prepared some notes beforehand. I just wondered if

there was anything in particular you were wanting to have included in this interview. I

should have let you [present them first].

HC: Well, I peered through a few things. I wrote down a few. If you have any questions, feel

free.

RF: Sure!

HC: I thought, “Well, what was the major legislation while I was there the eighteen years?”

The revision of the Criminal Code was probably one of the most far-reaching. It was

about three feet tall. Huge.

RF: About when did that take place?

HC: Ike Skelton was in the Senate. It was my first year in the Senate. And he handled the bill

and how he ever did it, I don‟t know. You‟ve got to really respect him because it was

tedious, it was controversial, [and] it was about everything you can imagine. And when

10 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

you‟re talking about that many pages of context for one bill, you just had... In fact, I

jokingly wrote a substitute bill for the revision of the Criminal Code. But what I wrote

down was the Ten Commandments. (Laughing) A one page bill to replace this stack that

[gesturing, indicating a height of three feet] high! I didn‟t introduce it, but I started to

talk to them about it a little bit on the Floor and everybody got a kick out of it! But that

was probably the [one] that [was the most] far-reaching. The death penalty had to be one

of those things that was far-reaching and long term that you will remember probably.

I wrote [in my notes] some things that I was proud of. One of them you‟ll enjoy, I

think. When Truman had retired and he was home, some teacher... In fact, I‟ve got it

framed right up there. [Gesturing toward the west wall of his office] Some teacher

decided to put him on trial for dropping the atomic bomb. I got so mad and so upset that

I wrote the only remonstrance that I ever saw in the House or the Senate. Now there may

have been others, don‟t get me [wrong], there may have been. I just wrote one and I got

eleven or twelve people to sign it. We introduced it. The newspapers just went crazy

with it! But it said, “What in the world are you doing here? This saved lives, millions of

lives, both Japanese [and American]. Certainly Japanese and certainly our troops.”

[tape meter, 250]

I talked to, I know, several (and that‟s not just two or three) people that were on their way

to Japan and they knew that it was going to be just hell fighting on their home land.

Because they had it in the islands where they‟d just dig down and it was just awful. So I

introduced the remonstrance and nothing... They put in a committee, but it got their

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 11

attention. It got the teacher‟s! She was awful mad! (Chuckles) I never did meet her but

that was one of the things that I was proud to have done!

And then by amendment (and you‟ll never see my name on it) I did get for what I

call my rural area the sales tax exemption on farm machinery. Anybody who bought a

piece of machinery in the last twenty, twenty-one or two years that‟s why they didn‟t

have to pay sales tax. Ed Dirck, who was from St. Louis, had the bill. We were in a

conference committee between the House and the Senate, and he wanted (I forget what)

something for the firemen or police in St. Louis. I said, “Ed, I‟ll vote for your bill with

your amendment if you‟ll put my amendment on.” We agreed on it and the rest of the

committee did too, so that was signed in. I‟m proud of that! (Laughs)

Probably the most frustrating bill we had in the whole time that I was there was:

Charlie Broomfield from Jackson County, a good friend of mine, had the Teacher‟s

Tenure bill. In the end, after all of the debate and everything, I did vote for it. But after

it was put into law and then I saw how it was conducted, I felt like I had been betrayed by

the people that told me how it would work. I really felt like it was not doing what they

said it would do nor was it going to be administered like they said it was going to be

administered. And that really upset me. (Chuckles) If I had the chance to go back I

would not vote for it! But that happens, and you don‟t always... Anybody that says

they‟ve never made a mistake voting are crazy or they‟re lying to you! One of the two or

both maybe, I don‟t know.

The most controversial [piece of legislation] I had written down [in my notes was]

ERA. Of course, any abortion issue [is controversial]. John Schneider, of course, was

12 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

the big abortion person there [and] still is. (Chuckling) He‟d try to put on everything he

could get it on! And I understand that. That‟s his feeling and I respect that. But I don‟t

[feel government should be involved.] I think the abortion issue is between a woman and

God. I don‟t there‟s any legislative body, never has been or never will be, wise enough to

tell a woman what she should do with her body.

[tape meter, 300]

Between she and God, that‟s where it should be and that‟s where I‟d put it. But that‟ll go

on forever, I‟m afraid, Renae. I don‟t know. And ERA was extremely... (Chuckling)

Had a funny thing happen. I had taken the position that I would be for it because I was

aware of cases here especially in the rural area where somebody... The husband died, the

wife would have to sell the farm or have to get rid of something and they wouldn‟t get

what it was worth because they were a woman! It just was that simple for me! So I told

them I was going to vote for it. And I told them why. In fact, I told people when I‟d

come home in these meetings that we‟d have. Most of them seemed to understand that,

but I had one lady from Kansas City, a dear friend, who was lobbying for it. She kept

coming in my office. I told her, yeah, I thought it‟d be alright and I‟d vote for it when it

came up for vote. (Chuckling) Finally one day, I said, “Will you get out of here?

You‟ve already got my vote! Go someplace else and lobby somebody else!” (Laughing)

She was just a bore! But that was extremely controversial.

The most powerful lobbies as far as I could see were the teachers and the bus and

truck [industry]. [Ursul] Lewellen was his name, [he worked for the Missouri] Bus and

Truck [Association]. He was one of the best lobbyists! He‟d never lie to you. He never

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 13

would question your [actions]. If you voted flat against him every time, he was still your

friend and was there to give you information. I really appreciated people like John

Britton. He and... Oh, there was... (Laughs) You‟re testing my memory again!

Anyway, there were some of them you just absolutely appreciate because they are that

way.

One of the most interesting, funny debates [I] ever heard... We had a Saturday

Night Pistol [bill]. Remember when they were trying to pass a law to do away with

Saturday Night Special guns, the little handguns? Well, we had this law and I don‟t

know who was handling the bill, but [Richard] Dick Webster who sat right behind me (he

was from Joplin), he got up and said he was going to introduce an amendment on the

Saturday Night Hammer. He said, oh, it was just awful how many people were killed

with these hammers, and you could sneak them in your pocket. He went on, and I would

give anything to have a recording of it! It was just hilarious and beautifully done! I

mean, he never cracked a smile, never did. But he carried that on for about five or ten

minutes, who knows, but it was a joy to hear him.

He and Al Spradling. I remember Al was quite a debater. He was from Cape

Girardeau. Al got up one day and he was talking about something and somebody who

was visiting while he was talking between themselves said that they were for this bill. He

said, “Yeah, so-and-so and Cliffy Jones and so-and-so are for this bill”, and they weren‟t

even talking about that bill! (Laughs) But Al took advantage of it! He was quite a

debater. It was a lot of fun there.

[tape meter, 364. End side one, tape one.]

14 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

[tape meter, 001. Begin side two, tape one.]

HC: One interesting time... I guess it wasn‟t funny, it wasn‟t to Senator George Murray. [He]

was on the Floor debating some bill. I was in the dais, because the Lieutenant Governor

was hardly there. I did a lot of that, I took charge of the meeting. I made the ruling that

turned out it was against George Murray and he just charged up to the dais! (Laughs)

And I didn‟t know whether he was going to come all the way up or not, but we restored

order. George just gave me fits afterwards. Cliffy Jones, who was one of the... Well, he

could speak seven languages, one of the smartest guys there. He was really something. I

enjoyed him. He came to me later that same day and he said, “Well, you were right. You

made the right ruling.” (Chuckles) Even though George and he were both Republicans!

That kind of made me feel good. But, boy, George was mad! I just had to rule like

thought it should have been!

Let‟s see, we did have one that really [was an] interesting thing. I was in on an

impeachment. There was a judge from St. Louis who was being impeached. I‟d never

[done this before]. I doubt if half [were ever impeached]. Hardly any. But we did have a

closed door [meeting]. The House recommends the impeachment -- to do it or not to do

it -- to the Senate. Then the Senate does the actual impeaching if it‟s to be done. Well, I

was in the House at the time. Some judge was messing around with one of the gals in his

court. We had heard that testimony. They closed the doors, they shut off all the

microphones, and they had guards at the doors. Anybody in the House, anybody could

ask questions. Mostly the lawyers did. I remember Tom Graham did quite a little

question asking of the witnesses. We had the witnesses, we had the judge, had the girl

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 15

there, had the husband of the girl there. It took us I think about two half days. We did

vote to impeach, but then the judge decided to resign on his own. Because I think he was

pretty sure there wasn‟t but one answer to that. That was something I don‟t think hardly

anybody ever went through. That‟s about all the notes that I can think of off the top.

RF: I‟ve made a few notes. What about your work with the Missouri-Nebraska border

dispute?

HC: Oh, I forget how many years -- probably four or five terms -- we appropriated $90,000

and got it through the Appropriations Committee to settle it. But nobody would ever

agree. The Nebraska people... Well, let‟s go back a little bit. Before I got there, Senator

Clayton Allen from here [Rock Port] who represented our district had gotten an

agreement. Nebraska had agreed to that agreement, but the Missouri Governor (and I

can‟t think of which one it was for sure) would not sign it. It would have been settled all

then. So what we were trying to do was get an agreement between Missouri and

Nebraska and they could take what was on their side and we‟d take what was on our side

after the river had changed. But I never could get them... I had no direct connection with

it to try to push it. It has been settled now. Congresswoman Danner, I think, got that

through. She was in Washington [D.C.], and I was Missouri. But I was totally frustrated

with getting the money to do it, and [then] nobody willing to do it! (Chuckles) It went

on for years and years.

RF: I noticed that this is primarily an agricultural area, correct?

HC: Oh, yes. My district, except when I got north Kansas City, has always been rural.

RF: What sort of special problems did that pose in terms of legislation?

16 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

HC: Well, it wasn‟t a problem, it was just something you...

RF: A challenge.

[tape meter, 050]

HC: A challenge, I guess, yeah! That sounds better, anyway. You sometimes were pitting

what was important rural against what was important city. I made friends with some --

what I called the more solid -- city boys. I‟d tell them, “Do you really need this? You

want so-and-so. Do you really need it? Who‟s going to pay for it? Are we going to be

paying for your falderal or whatever it is or your firemen‟s pension or something?” Then

I could base my decision, because these were the people that I trusted and I expected

them to trust me when I said... Well, the Noxious Weed law. Those people could have

cared less about that in St. Louis and Kansas City, but they knew that what I told them

about how bad it was, we needed it here. That‟s kind of the way you worked with them.

Unless it was just god-awful or unless we were going to pay a lot of it, we kind of traded

votes. I know some people would say, [in a voice of imitation] “Oh, you can‟t do that!

That‟s terrible!” but that‟s just part of life when you have this diverse a state. We‟re one

of the most diverse because we have two large cities. Well, now Springfield is getting

bigger than a barn! So if you don‟t pay attention to their needs, they‟re not going to pay

attention to your needs. And so you have to work together. See, I got along fine with

them because that‟s my nature is to try to get along rather than to fight. That‟s the way I

handle it. I had probably... I had both Democrat and Republican people from the city

that I trusted, I knew I could trust and knew they would not tell me just something to get

a vote. I felt that they felt the same way about me, and that‟s the way we got things done.

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 17

RF: Driving up here, I noticed that you‟ve got the Missouri River Bottoms coming up to the

hills, the bluffs. I wondered if you ever had to deal with any legislation concerning

drainage?

HC: The drainage laws? No, I don‟t recall a single one. There was a fellow that lived up by

Hamburg [Iowa], but he was in Missouri that wanted me to introduce legislation to

change them. I visited with a few people and I talked to the Secretary of Agriculture in

Missouri and I think it was... [Pauses, thinking] Oh, from St. Joe. [Suddenly recalling

the name] Davis. Dexter Davis. They said, “That‟s probably one out of ten thousand

people who wants something changed there. It‟s been this way for a hundred years and

nobody seems to care.” I‟m sure his concern was legitimate, but you‟re not going pass a

law... You see, that‟s one thing you run into, Renae. When you‟re first elected people

think that, oh, my God, you can walk on water, and you can wave your hand and create

miracles, and you can pass a law by waving the other hand! And it‟s just a shame, but

that‟s the way a lot of people feel. It‟s kind of embarrassing when you know you‟re not

any of those things! But some people say, “Well, we‟ll pass a law on that. Why don‟t

you pass a law like that?” You think, “Oh, my goodness gracious! You don‟t know how

much time and effort and everything it takes to pass a law.” But they were sincere, so

you can‟t totally pooh-pooh them because once in a while they come up with a heck of a

good one that you can get done.

RF: Could you tell me a little bit about your efforts to have road improvements in this area?

HC: Well, as you well know, the gas tax goes direct to the Highway Commission. They‟re

extremely difficult to deal with. My feeling generally was that if they wanted to do it,

18 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

they were going to do it and if you wanted it done they‟d kind of give you credit for it.

But they didn‟t pay much attention to you. A few times I... Well, the one thing that

comes to mind right now is the information center. They were going to put it clear down

in St. Joe, the welcome center out here. I did fight them on that, and I think I won.

(Chuckles) I‟m not sure of that! Anyway, that‟s where it is. But generally speaking...

Now, when we had Jack Stapleton [Sr.] from over at Stanberry on the Highway

Commission, I felt like I had more sway with the Highway Commission or the Highway

Department than when he was not there.

[tape meter, 100]

When he was not there... I remember we made the [Atchison County, Missouri

to] Brownville [Nebraska] bridge free. They (the Commission) were going to -- I forget

who the head of it was. It wasn‟t [Robert N.] Hunter, but it was the guy before him2.

Anyway, they were going to make Atchison County paint the bridge. You were talking

about some big money to paint a bridge. We just had strong words with each other, and

finally we got it freed without us doing it. But I‟m not sure how much influence I really

had on him, because they got their money without appropriation. In fact, one time we

had to... The general worker got paid through the gas tax, but the executives did not. We

did appropriate their salaries. So one time we threatened to not give them a raise if they

didn‟t give the other lower people the same type of raise. And it worked!

But anytime you get tax money going direct without being appropriated, you‟ve

got a tough battle on your hands! Conservation Commission. When they had their tax

2 Possibly referring to Marvin J. Snider, Chief Engineer.

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 19

passed, I said, “Look, boys, I‟m for your tax. Do not put in the Constitution.” And that‟s

exactly what they did! And you and I and twenty of your children and your children‟s

children will never see that turned around! So that makes them difficult to deal with.

RF: Were there any special concerns when I-29 came through here?

HC: Oh, I had a lot of mad farmers because they split their land. Right [gesturing, indicating

a dividing action], left you a corner on this side and the rest of the farm on that side. I

had very little influence. I know one fellow from Tarkio that had been a supporter of

mine. He was dead certain that I had put it right over here by Rock Port, and he hated

me „til the day he died. I thought, “Well, you may think I did that, but I didn‟t have a

thing to do with it.” They weren‟t paying any attention to me if I‟d have been God at that

time, because they were going to do it their way and they did! But other than just trying

to pat them on the back and help them, tell the Commission, “Don‟t you think you should

pay them [the landowners] a little more fair than you have been?” I doubt that I had

hardly any influence.

RF: Were there any concerns about the quality of construction?

HC: None. Never heard that. I heard some people get mad about tearing up the bluffs, but

they‟re growing back now. See, this is wind-blown loess soil. I guess you knew that.

There‟s only three places in the world that they have it. We‟re kind of jealous of it. I

didn‟t want them tearing up too much, but when they were done I saw what they had

taken didn‟t amount to that much. I still was a little upset about it, but it just didn‟t

warrant being mad the rest of your life about it. (Chuckles)

RF: You were on the Agriculture Committee.

20 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

HC: [Affirmatively] Mm-hmm.

RF: I‟d already asked you something about agriculture, but did anything in particular stand

out in your mind? Anything about corporate farms or anything like that?

HC: No, corporate... There was some talk about it, but nothing that I remember legislatively.

There were some people that wanted us to legislate that they couldn’t [establish corporate

farms in the area]. And you know, it was one of those things that was just really getting

started then and so I really didn‟t have... I didn‟t want to lose the family farm, but it‟s

happening now. I was afraid that it was going to happen. But at that point we weren‟t

ready to try to legislate it out completely because we knew that people that... Well, here

again, a widow. Nobody else wanted to buy her farm but some corporate outfit. So we

felt like we were taking her free will away.

[tape meter, 150]

So it really didn‟t get very far although it was discussed probably from day one „til I left.

There was always talk about it, but nothing [significant in terms of legislation]. I don‟t

recall... I assume somebody, maybe more than one, had introduced a bill about it. But I

don‟t recall one of them getting out of committee even.

RF: What about your work on the Flood Control and Soil Conservation Committee?

HC: Pretty ordinary for this [area].

RF: I know you had a pretty big flood here [during] your first year in the legislature.

HC: [Making sound of agreement] Oh, ho, ho, ho! Well, we‟ve had flood problems here all

my life. When I was in high school, they used to take all of the boys out of high school

to go over and fight the flood. That was before we had the dikes. I remember one year --

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 21

I think it was my brother‟s class -- they came in, and handed them their diploma and they

went back out and fought the flood! And we lost every year! (Chuckles) I remember

wading from where the bridge is now at Brownville [Nebraska] back home after we lost,

and the whole area was flooded. I walked in some of the water was waist deep, nearly

chest deep between the bluffs and that place I staying all night. It was a little higher. I

decided to walk home. I had nothing to do out there. It was just devastating! So when

they put the dikes in it really helped a lot. You know, I don‟t remember anything

specifically about the legislation on it. The Corps of Engineers pretty much was the

power there. Of course, the Missouri Legislature doesn‟t have much to do with the Corps

of Engineers. They‟re federal. So we tried to cooperate with them. We had the Red

Cross in here, and things like that. But that through the legislature really didn‟t have

much connection.

RF: How did you feel when the federal government would sort of impose its will on state

issues?

HC: Mad! (Laughs) I didn‟t like it at all! I didn‟t think they were listening and didn‟t think a

lot of their people really understood. I still feel that way! What the heck? (Chuckles)

You know, they talk about how much water they‟re going to let out. In fact I just saw an

article a week ago [or] two weeks ago, about the sturgeon and some bird and something

else was going to cost a billion dollars to keep their habitat and that we were going to

have to flood some more farmland. Well, you know I‟m a [conservationist]. In fact, I

passed the Endangered Species Act. I‟m an animal nut, and I enjoy it. I think they‟re

wonderful, a part of God‟s creation. But I think you have to balance, too, or at least try

22 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

to. I‟m not sure they do sometimes and so I get very upset with the federal government

sending people to make rules, regulations, and decisions on stuff they really don‟t know.

Some of them don‟t know about [the issues]. A few of them do. My dad had a

guy that was making loans -- this was probably in 1940, something like that -- and he said

the guy was making government loans on corn. Dad said, “If you want to talk to me,

we‟re going out to the farm here. Go with me.” In those days, we picked ear corn, didn‟t

have the combines. He went out and saw this guy. This fellow was standing there and he

said, “What‟s that yellow stuff over there in that building?” And it was ear corn!

(Laughing) And here he was making loans!

[tape meter, 200]

My dad came back and he was so tickled! He was mad, about half mad, but he was

tickled because the guy was so dumb! (Laughs) I‟ll never forget it! Of course, that‟s my

Washington bureaucrat story that I always tell! (Laughs)

RF: (Chuckling) Presumably [he was] a political appointee!

HC: Yes, I assume so!

RF: What about your work with [the House and Senate] Parks and Tourism [Committees]?

HC: Well, I was on the Parks Committee and enjoyed it. Senator Marvin Dinger from Iron

County, Ironton was his hometown. He and I were always on that committee together.

I‟m just as proud as could be of our [parks]. Maybe you knew this, maybe you didn‟t.

When you‟re a freshman, they have a freshman tour. I took that, took the whole

whatever it was, six days or seven or something. We were on the road a lot but we saw

all these parks that we had. And I am extremely proud of our state parks system. Had a

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 23

friend... [Pauses, smiles] There goes the memory again! Anyway, he worked with

them. Lee Fine was head of it at one time3. Lee Fine was a good friend of Marvin‟s and

became a good friend of mine. He died and they named the airport down at the [Lake of

the] Ozarks after him. But they just did one... They and the Tourism Commission are

two of the finest, I think, in the United States. We‟ve got some beautiful parks and I

don‟t think our people are aware of it. I wish they were. Big Springs and some of those

in south Missouri. More down there than up here, of course, but we farm everything!

But they‟re just absolutely beautiful and well managed. I was just proud and happy to be

a part of it the little part I could be.

RF: Has tourism played any real role in this area?

HC: Well, we don‟t have as much as we [used to.] We don‟t realize. We‟re so farm-oriented

that we don‟t realize we have things that [other] people don‟t. We did have the Mule

Barn over at Tarkio. I don‟t know if you‟ve ever heard of it or not. It was an eight-sided

brick building, three stories high. They put plays on and stuff there, and it was a real

tourist attraction for miles around! Well, it burned.

So we just haven‟t done our job of promoting our tourism. We have the

Memorial Building right down here [gesturing], which was the (as far as I know, some

historian would have to check on it)... After World War One the state passed a law to

match $10,000 for war memorials. We built that building and dedicated it to World War

One veterans, and we‟ve used it for all these years. At one time it got in kind of bad

repair. I went and I grabbed hold of it and we did some fixing. We poured a concrete

3 circa 1965-1966.

24 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

floor and did this [and that]. Then later on, when Vietnam was going on, I decided it‟d

be a nice thing to add another memorial on the memorial, I guess you say so. (Chuckles)

Went out and talked to the Legionnaires and got some people and raised some money.

[tape meter, 250]

We put a monument right beside it. Stuart Symington came up and dedicated it for us.

It‟s got every name of every Atchison County serviceman that died in service. But, I see

Kansas City is always talking about their war memorial. They keep saying its the only

one in existence or something -- I‟m not sure of their verbiage on it -- but I keep thinking

I‟ll write the letter to the editor and tell them that‟s not the only one! [I‟ll say,] “Come up

here and I‟ll show you where it is!” (Chuckles) Anyway, how‟d we get on that?

Oh, tourism! But the hills certainly could be a tourist attraction. We have a nice

little wildlife area out here. The farmers pitched in and did that themselves. A little lake,

I can‟t think of the name of it off the top of my head. Anyway, our farmers around here

got their trucks and their tractors and they just made a nice dam out there and it‟s great!

But we don‟t promote it like we should. So we‟re just not aware of it like we ought to be.

There‟s some old schoolhouses around that could be used and stuff like that, but we‟re

nothing like in south Missouri where they... Well, they rely on it more than we do.

We‟re still corn-soybean oriented! (Chuckles) That‟s where our money comes from.

RF: That sort of brings me around to your work on the [Senate] Banking Committee. Did you

do too much with that?

HC: Oh, the Banking... (Chuckles) Yeah, you‟re right! Too much!

RF: Too much, huh? (Laughs)

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 25

HC: I think that was part of the problem. I passed one bill for banks [that] made them a lot of

money. It was something that needed to be done then. The Governor [Joseph P.

Teasdale] wanted it. Kenny Rothman, the Speaker of the House at that time, wanted it.

Everybody seemed to want it but then after it got passed, people got mad about it!

(Chuckles) And I got most of the blame for it, I think. But it was a necessary thing to be

able to keep the economy rolling because they weren‟t just going to loan money in

Missouri if we didn‟t change those rates. It wasn‟t a big increase, but it was enough that

my farmers could still get loans. And that‟s what my interest was. [I thought,] “We‟ve

got to keep things going because if they won‟t make these boys loans, they‟re not going

to be able to put their crop in!” Well, as I said, after it passed [some people were upset.]

And it made the banks some money, don‟t get me wrong. But I think I got more flak out

of it than I should have, in fact, quite a bit. And I think my opponent when I got beat

used that to advantage and really misstated the whole situation on purpose. I understand

that. I‟ve been in politics long enough to know that! (Chuckles)

RF: Well, since you‟re in the insurance business... I know you were on the [House and

Senate] Insurance Committees. What sort of work did you do there?

HC: Just generally the knowledge I had about it.

[tape meter, 300]

You see, my grandfather started this company. [He] started the one that‟s in Columbia

now that writes [policies] in many states. And I was on the board here and I was on the

board there. The biggest thing that I could do in the Insurance Committee was give them

some expertise about somebody that really lived it and knew what in the heck they were

26 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

talking about. Because if I didn‟t know, if it was something like health insurance, I

didn‟t have a lot of input because that was not my field. But if it was about farm

insurance, about property and casualty insurance, about finances in insurance, I felt like I

was one of the more listened to members of that committee. And should have been. I

should have been on that committee.

RF: What about computerization in state government? That was getting started when you

were in the House.

HC: It was. I remember in the Senate we got first automatic typewriters (I called them).

Typewriters that you could dictate a letter and you‟d type a name in and then push a

button, and it‟d type the letters. If you had forty-eight people that wrote you about the

same subject, you could use the same letter because you just had your... I think we got

twelve of them. The top seniority guys got those, but the next year I came back and I

said, “Every senator should have one of those.” And I got it through. So we started that

and then it just went by leaps and bounds! There‟s no way that I ever kept up with it, but

it did help get the information out a lot quicker than I had before.

RF: You only had the one secretary per so many legislators when you first went in [the

House].

HC: We did!

RF: That‟s sort of mind-boggling to people now to think that you were trying to run the

government that way.

HC: Right! And we didn‟t get to... You see, we had four representatives and one secretary.

They told me to pick me one out. (Chuckles) I got a good one. Melba... What was it?

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 27

Anyway, then when I was in the Senate we still just had one person working with us. I

don‟t know how many they‟ve got now, three or four or five of them. When I went down

to visit Sam Graves and he was a senator -- just last year he got elected to Congress -- he

had three or four people working just for him! We only had a secretary, period, all the

time I was there. But we got along. When I was first in the House you just didn‟t get

near the mail that they get now or the telephone calls or anything.

[tape meter, 350]

RF: One question that occurs to me… Did the legislation, the wording of it, become more

complicated through the years?

HC: Well, when I first started we had what they called the Legislative Research Committee.

It was about three lawyers and about three or four secretaries, and they wrote ninety

percent of the legislation for we non-lawyers.

[tape meter, 358. End side two, tape one.]

[tape meter, 001. Begin side one, tape two.]

RF: O.K., I‟m sorry. You were talking about the Legislative Research Committee and

Frank...

HC: Yeah, Frank Masters was the head of it. Now, some of the lawyers wrote their own bills.

But like I had an idea for whatever, Big Lake dredging. I would go to them and say,

“Frank, here‟s what I want to do. How do I put it in legal verbiage?” And then they‟d

write it out for you and show it to you, and then if you had questions about it, change it or

whatever. And I‟d say I really believe ninety percent was written that way. Once in a

while you would get a lobbyist who worked for an association or something and they

28 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

would write a bill up the way they felt it should be with your approval, of course.

(Chuckles) I hope that‟s the way it was with everybody! It sure was with me! Even to

the lawyers sometimes it did get confusing because the way I interpret some wording,

you might interpret it different. That‟s where we had a lot of battles. It was: What effect

does this have? Does it mean what it says and does it say what it means? It became

touchy at times, especially when you had something important you wanted to get done.

But they did a beautiful job. Now, I understand, they‟ve got a staff bigger than... I don‟t

know how big it is, maybe a hundred people somebody told me. But I think if they have

that many... Of course, I don‟t know how many bills they‟re introducing. Do you know,

now?

RF: Oh, I don‟t know.

HC: We introduced 1,500 my first year and I thought that was awful! Because we heard about

300 of them [and] passed about 100 maybe, less probably. I don‟t know how that‟s going

now, but I think it‟s just grown like most government has. I‟m afraid it‟s getting too big.

Don‟t hold your breath for it to turn around! So we‟ll just have to see what happens

there. But I really appreciated it, because there isn‟t any way a layman can go in there --

and say, he wanted to have stripes painted on the highways -- and could write it in legal

language. So we had to rely on [the Legislative Research Committee]. And it was

probably a good thing.

(Chuckles) I remember one time I had something... (Gosh, I wish I could think

of what it was). I told Frank Masters what I wanted to do, and he said, “That‟s

unconstitutional.” I said, “I know it is, but I want it written up so I can introduce the bill

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 29

anyway!” (Laughs) And it was one of those bills that I wanted to make a point about

something. I wish I could remember what it was, Renae. But I thought, “The only way

I‟m going to get that done is by having a bill out there. If people get a little upset about

it, maybe they‟ll do something about it!” So I introduced it. And I knew it was just as

unconstitutional as could be! But I imagine there‟s more than one of those out there or

has been over the years.

RF: It seems like there are more and more lawyers in the legislature. Were you treated any

differently because you were not a lawyer?

HC: A little bit. Not being mean, they weren‟t mean because of it, but sometimes they would

kind of “pooh-pooh” something you said because you weren‟t a lawyer. I saw that

happen. Not a lot, but some. I think there‟s always going to be that distinction. It‟s not

going to be pronounced, but it‟s there.

I was amazed to see what the Congressional figures were on that4, but there

weren‟t as many as what the public seems to think, “They‟re all lawyers.” Well, they‟re

not. But, [the membership of the House] Judiciary Committee up until a few years ago

was all lawyers. The bills that passed the laws go to the Judiciary Committee, so in many

cases it darned near might as well be except for the final vote. Most people didn‟t realize

that when I‟d come home and talk about it. They‟d say, “That‟s no good. That can‟t be a

law.” I‟d say, “Well, the Judiciary Committee who handles that bill is all lawyers.” They

were when I was there. I think they put one layman on the committee now. Token.

4 The numbers of lawyers in Congress.

30 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

(Chuckles) [Pauses slightly, thinking] Yeah, I‟m sure they did because one of the

longest-term members in the House was appointed to it after I left.5

[tape meter, 050]

He was from Joplin. Anyway, it was so token it was a little ridiculous.

But it‟s a little bit of a problem when you want to do something. Here, let me

give you an example. I had introduced a bill -- can‟t tell you the number or what year I

introduced it -- that said if I sued you and I lost, I had to pay your attorney. Three or four

of the attorneys came to me and said, “That‟s the way it is in England, and you cut down

on the lawsuits.” Because if I lose and I have to pay your lawyer, boy, I‟m going to think

a little more about it. They said, “That‟s really the way it ought to be, but you‟re never

going to get it out of committee.” And I didn‟t. They kind of got me. I thought, “Well,

if you say that‟s the way it should be, why can‟t we do something?” But it just wasn‟t

going to happen.

RF: Several things happened over the years as far as interaction between the Governor and

certain legislators. I know you were in the legislature at this particular time: Warren

Hearnes and Earl Blackwell were having quite a feud at one point. What kind of

spillover was there into the House from all of that?

HC: Most of that, I‟d say, there again ninety percent of it was publicity-wise that was said and

done, because we‟d go out to the Ramada after a session and the Governor and Blackwell

and others. One of the things you learn is you don‟t hold a grudge. If you battle with

somebody on the Floor that day, you don‟t know the next day you might be on the same

5 Robert Ellis Young.

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 31

side, so you‟d better pay attention and not get too mean about it. And that‟s kind of that

Blackwell and Hearnes thing.

Governor Hearnes vetoed a bill that [Marvin] Dinger and I passed. We were

going to make any state publication... We thought there were too many of then. I know

there are now. But we passed a bill that said if it cost over fifty cents a copy, they had to

get an approval of a committee which we were going to appoint. He vetoed the bill.

(Chuckling) And wrote on it -- and sent it back to me and I think probably to Marvin, too

-- “dog bill”. He didn‟t like it at all! But we didn‟t get mad.

You know, you‟ve got to work with these people. There was some harshness on

the Floor, but nearly all of it, the next day or certainly the next week it was forgotten and

you went right ahead with business. I admired that from those people because you could

see how some the things you could hold a grudge a long time! (Chuckles) If you were

home, you‟d have probably held that grudge a little longer or maybe a long time, I don‟t

know. But there you had [to let it go].

“Jet” Banks and I, we tangled on several things but “Jet” would always speak to

me and I would always speak to him. If he‟d come up here, I‟d be glad to introduce him

or whatever. But, boy, we were [at odds] just on lots of things! A yes and a no!

RF: What did you think of it when he resigned [from the Senate in 1999]?

HC: Well, I‟ve had several people that I served with [become entangled with the law]: Dick

Rabbitt who was Speaker and he went to prison, Bob Griffin, “Jet” Banks, there was a

fellow from St. Louis I understood later he got arrested on drug charges, and different

ones through the years. And you feel sorry for them because at the time I knew them

32 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

everything was fine! They were just pretty doggone good folks. I just hated to see

somebody [get themselves into that situation]. I could see how it might happen.

Sometimes you get something passed, and you get a good election where you win easy or

somebody doesn‟t even run against you, you can get the big head! It‟ll happen to a lot of

people. So you have to kind of feel a little bit sorry for them. If they done wrong, they

ought to do something about it. So I had very mixed emotions about it.

[tape meter, 100]

I was never buddy-buddy with “Jet”, but I knew one thing: he was very sincere about

fighting for his part of St. Louis, for his people. And I did the same thing for mine.

(Chuckles) But he overdid it, I guess you‟d say!

RF: You mentioned Dick Rabbitt. You were in the Senate when that happened. What sort of

effect did that have? What sort of talk was going around?

HC: Oh, most people were just kind of surprised that it had happened, that it was even going

on. I was! I had no idea that that was going on. In my eighteen years, I only saw one

exchange of cash. And I didn‟t know the circumstance. I‟m not going to say it was a

bribe, but I saw cash pass from one person to another. One of them was a lobbyist and

one of them was a legislator. Other than that, I knew of none but there may have been

some. I‟m sure some people tried it. I would bet they did. But I thought that was pretty

good out of eighteen years to only know of one specific [instance], and I couldn‟t say that

that was!

RF: And you served in both chambers, too.

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 33

HC: Yes. But I was really glad that turned out that way, because you do kind of get a respect

for those guys when you serve with them and you work together and you eat together.

(Laughs) And after it‟s over you play together! That‟s kind of a camaraderie thing that

you do form. I think anybody would.

RF: [Pauses, looking at notes] I‟m trying to remember what year this [event I‟m thinking

about] is. I believe it was a couple of years before your last bid for re-election. When

Phil Snowden and Norm Merrell had their [clash for the Senate President Pro tem

position].

HC: Oh, that was a biggie! I think it could have been avoided if there had been a little more

give and take.

RF: How did it come about exactly? I‟ve never been quite clear on that.

HC: Truman Wilson and Phil Snowden... [Pauses slightly, trying to think of other names]

Well, they called themselves the “Rebels” and we were the “Dirty Dozen”, or something.

I forget. [In an amused tone of voice] I think that‟s what the paper called it! But John

Scott was the one that caused that whole thing because he switched. He said he was with

them, and they were going to elect Phil Snowden the Pro tem. I think Truman, when we

had an appropriation, or maybe the Floor Leader... I don‟t remember all the details. But

Norm Merrell, who had been Pro tem, Scott talked to him and said, “No, I‟m going the

other way. I‟m going with you guys if we can do it.” So he called us all together. We

went down at the Lake [of the Ozarks and] had a dinner, and we just sat down and said,

“Well, now here‟s what‟s going on.” The information that I remember was that the

people that were the “Dirty Dozen” weren‟t going to get any chairmanships and pretty

34 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

ordinary appointments to committees. Of course, most of us had been a chairman of

some decent committee and felt like we had done a reasonable job. Then when Scott said

he was to vote our way and there was only one vote difference! It was decided that night

down there that‟s what we would do. And did it! I was very sorry about it! Phil sat right

beside me. Since I‟d played football at MU and he had, too...

[tape meter, 150]

I still consider him a good friend, but I was sorry he didn‟t get a little better advice. I

really didn‟t know what to think about Scott. You know, that‟s just... Of course, I wasn‟t

close to John anyway. He was St. Louis and I was Rock Port. But when somebody...

Well, I‟m sure that‟s what‟s happening in Congress right now with that fellow becoming

an independent6. See, they think, [speaking in an imitating tone of voice] “Well, what

kind of a guy is he?” (Laughs)

But it was not fun! It was tense [and] pretty bad, but after about a month we got over it

and went ahead.

RF: There was no fallout for you personally?

HC: Personally?

RF: Well, politically, I mean.

HC: Oh, politically, none whatsoever. I don‟t think the public, at least the rural public, didn‟t

hardly understand it all or give a dern. If they did I never heard about it.

RF: What about within the inner workings of the Senate, though?

6 James “Jim” Jeffords of Vermont. He defected in 2001 from the Republican Party to become an independent. This action switched the balance of power in the U. S. Senate from the Republican Party to the Democrats.

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 35

HC: There was some tension. Well, remember Truman Wilson resigned off the

Appropriations Committee7. That was probably the biggest fallout I saw. And I was

really surprised he did that! Because Norm wasn‟t trying to be... He just wanted to keep

being the head of it and appointing the committees. As I recall, he felt Truman should

stay right on there and go ahead. But Truman got upset about something and resigned.

And then that was not a good scene, too! That was a carry-over.

RF: After the 1982 Primary in which you ran against Pat Danner, did you ever consider

running for anything else?

HC: I ran here as County Commissioner.

RF: [In agreement] [You were elected] Presiding County Commissioner [in 1986]. But I

mean any other office? Did you ever consider U.S. Congress or anything like that?

HC: When I was in office, I looked at it. I think everybody does. Everybody thinks about it,

but I just really wasn‟t that anxious to... I didn‟t think I wanted to go all my life. If you

just go there for one or two terms, you‟re kidding yourself. So it was a consideration but

not real serious. And the money you had to raise [was a factor]. It‟s gotten so out of

hand now that if I were considering running for the Senate I‟d want to be a millionaire

before I even tried! It‟s ridiculous!

RF: How much did campaigning change through the years for you?

7 Truman Wilson resigned from the Missouri Senate Appropriations Committee in June of 1979, apparently due to intense disagreements and events of conflict with Senate President Pro tem Norman Merrell and Senate Majority Leader John Schneider. According to newspaper accounts, Wilson felt his authority as Chair of that committee was being undermined by “behind the scenes” arrangements. (St. Louis Post -Dispatch, June 11, 1979 page 1A.) This may have been an event that in part led up to and contributed to the Snowden-Merrell situation, which took place in 1981.

36 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

HC: My last race, I spent $35,000. Sidney Johnson‟s last race in St. Joe in the Missouri

Senate, I heard he spent over $300,000. I don‟t know that‟s true, but that‟s what I heard.

And I think it‟s pretty accurate! Because, boy, it‟s just... You‟ve got to have money! A

good man today, whether it‟s Congress or Missouri House or whatever, a wonderful good

man without financial backing just doesn‟t hardly have any chance at all. And I hate it!

But it‟s a part of it. It may have been part of it when I was there.

RF: What do you think of term limits?

HC: Here again, it‟s like the bill [example I gave you earlier]. It‟s not going to do what

everybody thinks it‟s going to do, not going to be as good as the ones that wanted it think

it‟s going to be, it‟s not going to be as bad as the other one. The one that comes to mind

immediately is they had it in [Washington] D.C., ninety-eight year old Strom Thurmond.

I think there comes a time when you ought to give up on your own!

[tape meter, 200]

So people will cite that [as an example in support of term limits]. They‟ll say, “It‟s

wonderful. Great bill. [It] should be.” Well, there are occasions where it would do some

good and there are occasions when it would not do some good, because some of these

people -- the wisdom they‟ve got is because they‟ve been there and been through it.

Now if I remember... [Pauses, thinking] Oh, the gentleman from St. Louis who

served fifty-five years. Oh, my! (Laughs) He was in the Senate. He‟d been in the

House and he stayed in the Senate. Senator [Raymond] Howard beat him. That was in

re-districting. What the heck was his name? Didn‟t think I‟d ever forget it. I‟ve got his

picture and his autograph someplace at home! Anyway, he served fifty-five years and at

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 37

the end of the session, he‟d say, “Now, boys, let‟s don‟t get...” You know, when we had

night sessions and [it was] midnight and it was a little rowdy? And he say, “Boys, now

remember. Don‟t do everything. We‟ve got to have something to do next year.”

HC and RF: (Laughing)

HC: And I thought, “You know, it sounds funny, but he‟s right.” He said, “You don‟t have to

do everything immediately, right now.” Doggone, what‟s his name? McKinney!

RF: Oh, Mike Kinney? 8

HC: Mike Kinney! There we go! I really admired him! I thought he was quite an old codger!

(Laughs) But, boy, he‟d really been through a lot! That‟s the statement I remember him

making, because I was in the House and went over there one night, the last night. We all

sat around and had a drink. They were taking a break. And that was what he came up

with and I thought, “I‟ll never forget that.” That was great! (Laughs)

RF: Well, I know it‟s getting late. Is there anything you wanted to add or do you have any

closing comments?

HC: Yeah, I would say this. It was one of the great experiences in my life. I learned more

about human nature in that experience. I enjoyed it, and I tried to do a good job. I don‟t

think I‟d want to go back, now! Certainly not at my age. (Chuckles) I ought not to do a

Strom Thurmond on anybody. But it was a wonderful experience and you did get to see

human nature at its best and its worst and everything in between. When I was speaking

to classes -- whatever, high school or grade school -- I‟d always recommend that

everybody ought to run for office once if for nothing else to find out people react. And

8 Michael Kinney served in the Missouri Senate from 1913 through 1969. Democrat.

38 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

how you react, as a matter of fact. Because it‟ll be worth every minute you put into it.

Win, lose, or draw, because I‟ve done them all! (Laughs) Didn‟t get it to a draw, but I

sure have won and lost! It‟s not the end of the world. A lot of people think, “Oh, my

gosh, he can‟t do anything else! He‟s been there too long.” I had people say that I had

been there [too long]. I thought, “Well, I ought to run [for] one more term, maybe two.

But there just comes a time when I‟m going to get out of here!” But it kind of like when

I‟ve talked to other people about being in the army. I said, “It‟s kind of like that. If you

got home safely, you... Great experience, but don‟t need to do it again!” (Laughs)

RF: You mentioned that you‟d advised people to run for office at least once. What sort of

advice would you give them if they were [to do so]?

[tape meter, 250]

HC: Oh, I‟ve got an hour and a half or two on that!

RF: (Laughs)

HC: Sam Graves came to me the first time he was going to run. His family used to be

Democrats from Fairfax. He came in, sat down, and said he was going to run. They

[previously] had a special election to fill a Senate seat [which had been won by Glen]

Klippenstein. I sat down and talked with him. I said, “I‟m not sure I can tell you what to

do, but I‟ll guarantee I can tell you what not to do, because I‟ve done them all!”

(Chuckles) And that was about true, too.

RF: Going back to the ‟62 election you tried?

HC: Exactly! Exactly! Boy, I did everything wrong! I wouldn‟t take money because I

thought that if you took money, you were tainted. Well, that‟s stupid! Because if a

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 39

person offers you a donation, they‟re saying, “I trust you. I want to support you.” If you

take their money, they‟ll be a good supporter. If you don‟t take their money they look at

you like you‟re about half nuts, which you are! So that‟s one of the things I told Sam, I

remember that, because he was kind of that way. He said, “Well, I don‟t think I need any

money.” I said, “Sam, that‟s wrong.” In fact, I ran into a fellow running for city council

in one of the St. Louis suburbs. And he was a lawyer. He said, “I‟m going to run for the

city council.” (I think it was, I‟m sure it was.) He said, “I‟m not going to take any

donations.” I said, “No, no. Let me tell you about that.” (Chuckles) So I told him that

same thing, and he won!

I told him a lot of other things. [For example,] always ask for a vote. Don‟t care

where you are or what you are. Never talk to a group or a person without asking for their

vote. Because [during] my first election I was walking down Main Street the next day

[and] ran into this fellow. Known him ever since I was three years old, or probably when

I was in diapers. And he grabbed me by the shoulders and he said, “Why didn’t you ask

me for my vote?” (Chuckles) [I said,] “Well, I didn‟t think I had to.” He said, “Well, you

do!” And off he went! I said, “Don‟t you ever think that you don‟t have to ask for

everybody’s vote. I don‟t care who it is! So I told Sam that. And I told this other guy

that. I can‟t think of his name, now. But it‟s like I said, I can tell them what not to do.

(Laughs)

But campaigning‟s fun, too! We just had a ball! Get supporters. I had little high

school girls that had a “Youth for Cox” organization. The weekend before the election,

on Saturday, we always had a tour and we‟d wind up and have a dinner someplace. Went

40 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

in every town with a loudspeaker and people handing out stuff. We just had a ball! And

they loved it and we did, too. It was just great memories from that kind of stuff.

RF: Your wife [Virginia “Ginny” Cox] ran for representative also. What kind of campaigning

did she do?

[tape meter, 300]

HC: Well, about the same. She was overwhelmed by Tim Kelley. [He] beat her in Savannah,

and Savannah had the votes. Savannah was always a pretty tough place. Was for me,

too! There were just different things, I think. In fact, some people resented that both of

us were running at the same time. See, I was running for the Senate [and] she was

running for the House. There were a few people that just thought that shouldn‟t be. We

tried to play it up as a team. And I think it would have been a good team, but she didn‟t

make it. He was well liked. His father was a doctor and [well-liked], you know, went

way deep. So that‟s pretty tough to overcome. She didn‟t carry quite as well as we

thought she might in Atchison and Holt.

RF: Maybe you were just ahead of your time because there are two brothers, Tim and Tom

Green, that are representatives now.

HC: Well, we had in the state of Washington a couple that used to live in Rock Port. She was

in the House and he was in the Senate out in the state of Washington. So it can be done.

We just that didn‟t hit it at the right time or do something, whatever.

RF: Well, I hate to take up any more of your time. Is there anything you‟d like to add?

HC: No, I think I‟ve done wrung it out!

HC and RF: (Laughing)

HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris 41

RF: Okay, well, thank you very much for speaking with me today.

HC: You‟re very welcome.

[tape meter, 329. End side one, tape two. End of interview.]

42 HC = Hardin C. Cox; RF = Renae Farris

INDEX

Abortion - Law and legislation -- Missouri, 12-13 Actions and defenses - Law and legislation -- Missouri, 31 Agribusiness, 21 Apportionment (Election Law) - Missouri, 6, 8 Banking law - Missouri, 26 Banks, J. B. “Jet” (1926- ), 32, 33 Belt, Ronald M. “Ronnie” (1931- ), 6 Betz, Vernon Elwood (1918-1989), 6 Blackwell, Earl R. (1923- ), 31-32 Bridges (Atchison County, MO and Brownsville, NE), 19 Britton, John (1925- ), 14 Broomfield, Charles S. (1937- ), 12 Capital punishment - Missouri, 7, 11 Carnahan, Melvin Eugene “Mel” (1934-2000), 8 Corporate farms See Agribusiness Cox family, 1, 3, 23, 26 Cox, Hardin Charles (1928- ) - military service, 1 - political ambition, 36 Cox, Virginia “Ginny”, 41 Criminal law - Missouri, 10-11 Danner, Patsy Ann “Pat” (1934 - ), 2, 16 Davis, Dexter, 18 Daylight saving - Law and legislation -- Missouri, 9-10 Dinger, Marvin L. (1921-1997), 23, 32 Dirck, Edwin L. “Ed” (1928-1996), 12 Drainage - Law and legislation -- Missouri, 18 Eagleton, Thomas Francis (1929 - ), 3 Electioneering, 2, 36-37, 39-41 Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) - Missouri, 12-13 Fine, Lee, 24 Floods - Missouri, Atchison County, 21-22 Frost, Robert H. “Bob” (1899-1985), 4 Governors - Missouri -- interaction with General Assembly, 31-32 Graham, Thomas D. (1922-2000), 5, 15 Graves family, 39 Graves, Samuel B., Jr. “Sam” (1963 - ), 39-40 Griffin, Bob Franklin (1935- ), 32 Hearnes, Warren Eastman (1923 - ), 7, 31-32 Howard, Raymond (1935- ), 37 Hull, William Raleigh, Jr. “Bill” (1906 - 1977), 3 Impeachments, 15-16

Interstate highway system - Missouri, 20 Jones, A. Clifford (1921-1996), 14 Kelley, Timothy M. “Tim” (1947- ), 41 Kinney, Michael “Mike” (1875-1971), 37-38 Klippenstein, Glen O. (1937- ), 39 Legislators - Missouri - age of, 4 Legislators - Missouri - interaction among, 8, 17, 30, 31-32, 34 Legislators - Missouri - law background of, 30 Lewellen, Ursul G. “Lew” (1904-1979), 13-14 Litton, Jerry Lon (1937- 1976), 2 Lobbying and lobbyists, 5, 13-14, 28-29 McMahon, Fred R. (1899-1970), 2 Masters, Frank, 28, 29 Masters, Howard (1901-1967), 4 Memorial Building, Rock Port, Missouri, 24-25 Merrell, Norman L. “Norm” (1924-1994), 34, 36 Missouri - Boundary disputes - Nebraska, 16 Missouri Bus and Truck Association, 13 Missouri. Conservation Commission, 19-20 Missouri. General Assembly. Agriculture Committee, 20-21 Missouri. General Assembly. Anecdotes, 14-16 Missouri. General Assembly. Censure, 11-12 Missouri. General Assembly. Committee on Legislative Research, 28-30 Missouri. General Assembly. Corrupt practices, 33-34 Missouri. General Assembly. House - Flood Control and Soil Ccommittee, 21 Missouri. General Assembly. House - Judiciary Committee, 30-31 Missouri. General Assembly. House - rules and practice, 4-5 Missouri. General Assembly. Insurance Committee, 26-27 Missouri. General Assembly. Parks and Tourism Committee, 23 Missouri. General Assembly. secretaries, 27-28 Missouri. General Assembly. Senate - Banks, Banking and Financial Institutions committee, 25-26 Missouri. General Assembly. Senate - Factions -- “Dirty Dozen”, 34-36 Missouri. General Assembly. Senate - Factions -- “Rebels”, 34-36 Missouri. General Assembly. Senate - Office equipment and supplies, 27 Missouri. General Assembly. term of office limits, 37-38 Missouri. Highway Commission, 18-19 Missouri. Tourism Commission, 24 Mule Barn, Tarkio, Missouri, 24 Nebraska - Boundary disputes - Missouri, 16 Parks - Missouri, 23-24 Patterson, H. F. “Pat” (1922-1965), 8 Phelps, William C. “Bill” (1934 - ), 6 Rabbitt, Richard J. “Dick” (1935- ), 32, 33 Race relations, 8-9 Rothman, Kenneth J. “Kenny” (1935 - ), 26

Sales tax - Law and legislation -- Missouri -- agricultural machinery, 12 Schneider, John Durbin (1937- ), 12-13 Schramm, Jack J. (1932- ), 7 Scott, John E. (1939- ), 34-35 Skelton, Issac Newton, IV “Ike” (1931- ), 10 Snowden, Phillip H. “Phil” (1938- ), 34 Spradling, Albert M., Jr. (1920- ), 14 Stapleton, Jack, Sr., 19 Symington, William Stuart “Stuart” (1901 - 1988), 3, 25 Teachers - Tenure -- law and legislation -- Missouri, 12 Teasdale, Joseph Patrick (1939 - ), 26 Tourist information centers - Missouri, 19 Tourist trade - Missouri, Atchison County, 24-25 Truman, Harry S. (1884 - 1972), 3, 11 United States. Army - Corps of Engineers, 22 United States - Politics and government - anecdotes, 23 War memorials - Rock Port, Missouri, 24-25 Webster, Richard M. “Dick” (1922-1990), 14 Weeds - Control - Missouri - Noxious Weed Law, 17 Wildlife conservation, 22 Wilson, Truman E. (1926- ), 34, 36 Young, Robert Ellis (1919- ), 31