Day 2 IICSA Inquiry Anglican Church Investigation Hearing 24 July 2018

Day 2 IICSA Inquiry Anglican Church Investigation Hearing 24 July 2018 1 Tuesday, 24 July 2018 1 a statement of truth saying: 2 (10.00 am) 2 "I believe the facts stated in this witness 3 Welcome and opening remarks by THE CHAIR 3 statement are true." 4 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Day 2 of 4 Are those facts, to the best of your knowledge and 5 the substantive hearing of the Anglican Church's 5 belief, true, as set out within that witness statement? 6 investigation in the Peter Ball case study. 6 A. Yes. 7 Today, the inquiry will hear witness evidence from 7 Q. As to the second witness statement, which is behind 8 Lord Carey and Dr Andrew Purkis. If there are any 8 tab 2, which in fact is that of February 28, so it is in 9 matters to be dealt with prior to hearing the 9 sort of date order from the last one first and then 10 witnesses -- 10 working back, again, at page 29, your signature was 11 MS SCOLDING: No, there are no such matters. Chair and 11 there accompanied by what us lawyers call a statement of 12 panel, good morning. 12 truth. Do you confirm that the facts as set out in that 13 THE CHAIR: Good morning. 13 witness statement are true, to the best of your 14 LORD GEORGE CAREY (sworn) 14 knowledge and belief? 15 Examination by MS SCOLDING 15 A. Indeed, true. 16 MS SCOLDING: Good morning, Lord Carey. 16 Q. Then if I could just take you to behind tab 3, this is 17 A. Good morning. 17 a much shorter witness statement, being only two 18 Q. Just a few things before I start my questioning of you. 18 paragraphs in length. 19 Firstly, and we have already talked about this, this 19 A. Yes. 20 isn't a test of memory, so if you can't remember 20 Q. Again, can you confirm that the facts as set out in that 21 details, please say so. We are aware that the events in 21 witness statement are true, to the best of your 22 question happened a long time ago. We have two vast 22 knowledge and belief? 23 files of documentation, but Danny will also be getting 23 A. Indeed, I can. 24 some documents up on the screen, which hopefully may 24 Q. Thank you very much. These witness statements will be 25 refresh your memory or remind you of the events more 25 placed upon the website in due course. I will not be Page 1 Page 3 1 clearly. 1 taking you through these witness statements line by 2 A. Yes. 2 line, but there may be points when I ask you to look at 3 Q. Secondly, if you need to have a break at any time for 3 particular parts of the document. 4 any reason, please just indicate that, and we can do so. 4 A. Yes, thank you. 5 This isn't a test of stamina. We will have a break 5 Q. I'm going to ask you a little bit about your career 6 anyway, if the chair wishes to do so, at 11.15 for 6 history first, which is set out largely in your second 7 approximately 15 minutes. 7 witness statement. So if at any time I need to refer to 8 Thirdly, there are two huge bundles in front of you, 8 it, I will try to take you to the relevant paragraph 9 which are copies of all the documents that I may ask you 9 number, or at least the right witness statement, I hope. 10 to look at this morning. There is also a screen in 10 You set out at paragraphs 5 to 12 of your second 11 front of you, and we can obviously blow things up on 11 witness statement, which is WWS000143_002 over to 003, 12 that screen if that would be of assistance to you. 12 your career history. 13 Everyone else around the room can see the document 13 A. Yes. 14 that you can see on the screen. 14 Q. You were ordained in 1962. 15 In your bundle, Lord Carey, if I can just ask you to 15 A. Yes. 16 look up volume 1, just briefly, right at the front of 16 Q. You had a curacy at St Mary's, Islington -- this is 17 that, behind tab A, there are three witness 17 paragraph 5. You were then a tutor in Christian 18 statements -- one of 9 February. The first thing you 18 doctrine at two theological colleges. You were then the 19 come to in your bundle is something saying, 1, 2 and 3. 19 vicar of St Nicholas, Durham. You were then the 20 One of them is dated 9 February, one is dated 20 principal of Trinity College, Bristol, which 21 28 February and one is dated 2 May 2018. 21 I understand is a theological college. Between 1987 and 22 Now, your signature is attached at the back of all 22 1991, you were the Bishop of Bath and Wells, and then, 23 of them, but it has been blocked out, so if I could ask 23 from 1991 to 2002, you were Archbishop of Canterbury. 24 you to go to the last witness statement, which is behind 24 A. Yes. 25 tab 1, that's page 54. That is attested to with 25 Q. Prior to becoming Archbishop of Canterbury, you had only Page 2 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 2DY Day 2 IICSA Inquiry Anglican Church Investigation Hearing 24 July 2018 1 been a diocesan bishop for four years, which is 1 Bishop of Canterbury: a large diocese with two suffragan 2 a relatively short period of time. Would you therefore 2 bishops who manage the role, largely, Monday to 3 say that your enthronement as Archbishop of Canterbury 3 Saturday, and the archbishop descends on them on 4 meant that you were therefore thrown in at the deep end 4 a Sunday. So there was hardly a day off. I would go 5 in terms of leadership and management? 5 down to Canterbury on a Friday afternoon and return to 6 A. Yes, indeed, that can be said. Yes, I was aware at the 6 the London palace on the Sunday evening. That's one 7 time, and certainly being admitted to the House of Lords 7 role. 8 without having any previous experience of it, it was 8 I had a role as president of the Anglican Communion. 9 very daunting and I was on a very fast track. I was 9 That was a huge role, of going and travelling around the 10 very well aware I was quite inexperienced, but hopefully 10 different provinces of the Anglican Communion. I had 11 I caught up quickly. 11 state and civic responsibilities. I had ecumenical 12 Q. Did the church offer any kind of management or 12 responsibilities, and another one that came on quickly 13 leadership or organisational training prior to taking up 13 was the interfaith responsibilities as well. I think 14 these senior clerical roles? 14 that may add up to six. But it was a very commanding 15 A. Yes, there were several courses I went on to do with 15 role. I remember at the time saying to myself, to get 16 leadership, and so on. For example, when I was 16 on top of this needs a very competent staff, which I did 17 principal of Trinity, Bristol, for seven years, 17 have. 18 I remember going on courses there to do with management 18 Q. So, in reality, how much of your time was spent dealing 19 of people, that kind of thing. There was plenty of 19 with internal domestic issues to do with diocesan 20 evidence of going on courses where -- human nature, what 20 bishops and internal bishops, of which the Peter Ball 21 trust meant and so on, but not directly to do with 21 affair was but one, and how much of your time was spent 22 sexual ethics or anything of that nature. 22 doing the other things that you have just told us about? 23 Q. I just wanted to ask you a little bit about what the 23 A. It's quite difficult to quantify that, really. 24 role of Archbishop of Canterbury at the time that you -- 24 I wouldn't know what percentage. But if one was asked 25 during the time of your tenure, about what that 25 what, in terms of percentage, was my responsibility, Page 5 Page 7 1 involved. Now, we have had both your successors to the 1 say, for the Church of England, then I would say that 2 archepiscopy already come and give us evidence, and they 2 took up at least 50 per cent of the time, probably more. 3 have both told us that your role when you were -- that 3 Q. As part of your role of influence but not power, our 4 the role of Archbishop of Canterbury is one of influence 4 understanding is that at that time you couldn't suspend 5 but not power. Would you agree with that? 5 a bishop, even if, as in Peter Ball's case, he had in 6 A.

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