LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLV OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON STATUTORY REGULATIONS AND ORDERS Tuesday, 18 November, 1980

Time- 10:00 a.m. debats et proces-verbaux de la chambre. Le debat a ete tres long et s'est fait entre MM. Prendergast, Jerome, Martin de Portage la Prairie, A.F. Martin, CHAIRMAN- Mr. Warren Steen (Crescentwood). Fisher, Roblin qui etait le grand-pere de Duff Roblin, Wood, Campbell de Winnipeg, S.J. Thompson et Harrower. MR. CHAIRMAN: Members of the committee, as "Voici quel a ete le vote contre agreed to yesterday that we would start off this !'abolition: Prendergast, Norquay, Gelley, Martin de morning with the simultaneous translation and it is Morris, Wood, Marion, O'Malley, Jerome, my understanding that we have two delegations, one Lagimodiere, Gillies, Roblin, pour un total de 11. representing the Societe franco-manitobaine and Mr. "Pour !'abolition: Greenway, Martin (Portage), George Forest. Are the representatives or MacLean, Smart, MacMillan, Hettle, Colelough, representative of the Societe franco-manitobaine Campbell (Souris), MacKenzie, Thompson (Norfolk), present? Jones, Young, Morton, Smith, Dickson, Winkler, Mr. Kovnats. Crawford, Thompson (Emerson), Lawrence, Sifton, Graham, CampbeW (Winnipeg-Sud), Harrower et MR. ABE KOVNATS (Radisson): Are we on Fisher, pour un total de 24. simultaneous translation at this point? "Comme on le voit, la majorite a bien fonctionne. Nos amis ont combattu vaillamment, leur attitude MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we will be in a matter of merite les plus grands eloges. Le procureur-general moments as soon as the delegation proceeds. peut se rejouir, et il se rejouit; mais qu'il prenne garde que ce mepris bien arrete des droits MR. KOVNATS: What channel would we be on? imprescriptibles de la minorite franQaise du Manitoba ne cree d'embarras ailleurs dans la Puissance. La MR. CHAIRMAN: Four, I am told. tenacite, la perseverance du Canadien-franQais sont MR. KOVNATS: I see. connues: on ne le persecute pas impunement, et c'est une persecution qu'on nous fait endurer en ces MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you introduce yourself and temps. Qu'on lise le debat qui s'est fait a la carry on, please. chambre; a-t-il ete avance un seul argument capable de justifier !'action du parti ministerial? Non] Tout a MME GILBERTE PROTEAU: Bonjour Messieurs. Je ete fait par une majorite sourde, et, comme dit le suis Gilberte Proteau, presidente de la Societe proverbe, 'il n'est pire sourd que celui qui ne veut franco-manitobaine. point entendre'." En commen9ant ce matin je voudrais vous dire Avant d'aller plus, je voudrais faire remarquer que que c'est pour nous une tres grande joie de pouvoir les votes contre !'abolition au total de 11 etaient tous vous adresser la parole en fran9ais et d'eHre assures unanimement des votes conservateurs et les votes que nous sommes compris. Voila 90 ans que nous pour !'abolition au total de 24 etaient tous voulons reprendre ce grand droit que nous avions et unanimement des liberaux. C'est un fait historique finalement ce matin, je suis tres heureuse d'etre la assez interessant. premiere a m'en servir. C'est avec beaucoup de joie Deuxieme partie: Pourquoi developper la langue que je m'adresse done a vous en fran9ais et j'espere fran9aise au Manitoba? que le gouvernement qui nous a permis cela ce Trois raisons surtout servant a expliquer pourquoi matin continuera de le faire et que 9a deviendra une il est essenti al au gouvernment manitobain tres belle tradition dans notre province. d'encourager et de voir au developpement de la Je passe maintenant a notre document. La langue langue franQaise au Manitoba. Ces trois raisons sont fran9aise au Manitoba, ressource renouvelable de d'ordre historique, economique et enfin premiere importance. Ce document a ete prepare par philosophique et politique. la Societe franco-manitobaine et la Societe D'abord, au niveau historique, l'en tree du historique de Saint-Boniface, la Federation Manitoba dans la Confederation canadienne en 1870 provinciale des Comites de Parents et le Conseil et la section 23 de I' Acte du Manitoba en particulier Jeunesse provincial. ont eu un effet positif sur tous les Canadians franQais Le document est bilingue; vous pouvez done suivre de l'epoque, tant au Quebec qu'au Manitoba. Nous sur le document si vous l'avez en votre possession. Canadiens-franQais, nous nous croyions vraiment Aper9u historique: En 1874, Louis Riel avait dit, dans notre pays a mari usque ad mare, car le fait "tout ce que nous recherchons, c'est !'application de fran9ais etait repandu d'un ocean a l'autre. Nous I'Acte du Manitoba. Rien de plus, mais egalement etions la nation "canayenne", fiere, forte et heureuse rien de moins". de se construire un pays avec nos compatriotes C'est un extrait du journal "Le Manitoba" qui a anglophones. En un mot, nous etions chez-nous, tant paru le 12 fevrier 1890. La correspondance n'etait bien a Rimouski qu'a St-Eustache. En plus, les pas signee. Abolitiion de la langue franQaise. "La provinces de la Saskatchewan et de I' Alberta, a ce legislature a vote hier soir !'abolition de l'usage de la temps-la appelees les Territoires du Nord-Ouest, langue fran9aise comme langue officielle dans les etaient aussi bilingues car elles etaient sous la

69 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980 jurisdiction du gouvernement federal. Effectivement, Manitoban, which was published on February 12th, le Canada fran<;:ais etait une realite. 1890. The correspondence was not signed. On connait tous par contre ce qui est arrive en "The Abolition of the French language: Last night 1890 et 1916 au Manitoba. L'annexe I donne un bref the Legislature voted the abolition of the use of aper<;:u de ce qui est arrive ailleurs au Canada vis-a­ French as an official language in debates and vis le fait fran<;:ais. minutes of the House. The debate between Mr. Les questions suivantes se posent alors. Un Prendergast; Jerome; Martin of Portage la Prairie; gouvernement a-t-il le droit d'abolir d'un trait de A. F. Martin; Fisher; Roblin, who was the plume des promesses et des garanties avancees grandfather of Duff Roblin; Wood; Campbell from envers un peuple? La reponse est "Non" bien sOr. Si Winnipeg; S. J. Thompson and Harrower was les gouvernements, qui sont les auteurs des lois, ne lengthy. les respectent pas, comment alors peuvent-ils en "This is a breakdown of the vote. Against attendre autant de leurs citoyens? Une deuxieme abolition: Prendergast; Norquay; Gelley; Martin question se pose aussi; un gouvernement a-t-il le from Morris; Woods; Marion; O'Malley; Jerome; droit moral de refuser de rectifier un droit viole par Lagimodiere; Gillies; and Roblin, for a total of 11. un de ses predecesseurs, meme si ce droit fut viole il "For abolition: Greenway; Martin from Portage; y a plus de 90 ans? Encore une fois, la reponse est MacLean; Smart; MacMillan; Hettle; Colelough; "Non". Autrement comment est-ce que les membres Campbell from Souris; MacKenzie; Thompson from - qui torment ce gouvernement pourraient-ils justifier Norfolk; Jones; Young; Morton; Smith; Dickson; leur objectif, qui est le bien-etre de tout leur peuple? Winkler; Crawford; Thompson from Emerson; La deuxieme raison pour developper la langue Lawrence; Sifton; Graham; Campbell from South fran<;:aise au Manitoba en est une d'ordre Winnipeg; Harrower; Fisher, for a total of 24. economique. Le Docteur Rene-Jean Ravault dans "lt is evident that the majority worked well. Our une these intitulee "Some Possible Economic friends fought valiantly. Their attitude was praiseworthy. Dysfunction of the Anglo-American Practice of "The Attorney-General may rejoice and rejoicing International Communication", developpait une he is, but he should beware that this dogmatic rationalisation, qui s'applique tres bien au Canada et contempt of the indefeasible rights of the French qui sert a expliquer le avantages economiques dont minority in Manitoba does not create peut beneficier une nation qui compte des citoyens embarrassment elsewhere in the government. The parlant des langues differentes. D'abord, selon le Dr perseverance and tenacity of the French-Canadian Ravault, la crise economi que dans laquelle are known; one does not persecute him with I' Amerique du Nord s'enlise de plus en plus impunity, and persecution is what we are forced to profondement depuis une dizaine d'annees est dOe endure at this time. One is but to read the debate en partie a l'unilinguisme et au monoculturalisme which took place in the House; was there a single anglo-americain. Dans un article intitule "We're argument presented able to justify the action of Tongue-Tied", (Newsweek, le 30 juillet 1979), le the party in power? No. lt was all done to a deaf Senateur Fulbright affirmait sans equivoque: majority and, as the proverb says, "There is none SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: so deaf as he who will not hear"." Good morning, sirs, I am Gilberte Proteau, Before continuing I want to tell you that the vote president of the Society franco-manitobaine. Do against abolition of 11 was all Conservative votes you hear me? We are told that channel 3 is the and the 24 for it were Liberal votes. This is a Ukrainian channel. However, there are no historic fact that was well documented. Ukrainian interpreters. The second part, Why Develop The French Language In Manitoba: There are three primary To start with this morning, I would like to say that reasons upholding the importance of overseeing it is a pleasure to be able to address you in French and encouragement the development of French in and to be assured that we will be understood. lt is Manitoba by the provincial government. These ninety years since we have wanted to tape the three reasons are historic, economic and, finally, rights which are ours and finally this morning I am philosophical and political by nature. pleased to be the first to use it. I am happy then to At the historical level, the entrance of Manitoba be able to address you in French and I hope that into the Canadian Federation in 1870, and the the government, that has permitted us to use this particular Section 23 of The Manitoba Act had a right, will continue to do so and it will become a positive effect on all French Canadians of the time, tradition in our province. as well in Quebec as in Manitoba. We, French I will pass now to our document, French In Canadians, truly find ourselves in our own country Manitoba, A Primary Renewable Resource "a mari usque ad mare" for the French fact was This document was prepared by the Society established from sea to sea. We were the franco-manitobaine, the Historical Society of St. "canayen" nation, proud, strong and happy to Boniface, Federal Provincial Society of France, and build a country with our Anglophone compatriots. the Provincial Conseil Jeunesse. In a word, we were at home, as much in Rimouski This document is bilingual and you will be able to as in St. Eustache. Moreover, the provinces of follow this document if you have it in your Saskatchewan and Alberta, then called the possession. Northwest Territories, were also bilingual for they A brief historic perspective: In 1874 Louis Riel were under federal jurisdiction. Effectively, French stated, " all we wish is the application of The Canada was a reality. Manitoba Act, nothing more, but then equally, On the other hand, we know what happened in nothing less." This is an excerpt from The 1890 and in 1916 in Manitoba. Annex I gives a

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brief resume of what took place elsewhere in Commission enquiry on the foreign languages and Canada vis-a-vis the French fact. international studies entitled: Strength Through Consequently, one would ask the following Wisdom, a Critique of U.S. Capability. Perkins questions. Does a government have the right to strongly recommended the maximum use of this abolish, by a stroke of a pen, promises and extraordinary economic resource encompassed in guarantees given to a people? The answer is, of the North American linguistic and cultural course, no. If the governments, who are authors of minorities. the laws, fail to respect them, how can they expect the same respect for the laws from their citizens? "Special attention should be given to encouraging A second question too is asked; does a ethnic and other minority groups to enter linguistic government have the moral right to refuse to and international studies and to build on their correct the transgression of rights by one of its existing linguistic resources so they may contribute predecessors even though the transgression took more to American education, diplomacy and place more than 90 years ago? Once again, the international business. State authorities should answer is no. Otherwise, how could the members encourage the contribution of the thousands of of the present government justify their objective, ethnic language schools operated by language which is the development of all of its people? minorities to enable their children to master the

The second reason for developing French in language of their forebears". _ Manitoba is an economic one by nature. Doctor Si eel argument est valable pour les Etats-Unis, ne Jean-Rene Ravault, in a thesis entitled "Some l'est-il pas d'autant plus pour le Canada. N'y aurait-il Possible Economic Dysfunctions of the Anglo­ pas avantage a construire sur ce qui existe deja? La American Practice of International minorite francophone du Manitoba est une ressource Communication", developed a rational which economique renouvelable de premiere importance. applied well to Canada and which serves to Dans ces temps d'incertitude economique, quel explain the economic advantages of which a nation gouvernement, peut se permettre d'ignorer ou meme that has citizens speaking various languages might de voir disparaitre n'importe quelle de ses benefit. ressources. Plusieurs exemples servent a demontrer According to Dr. Ravault, the economic crisis in comment la langue francaise est un atout which North America has become more and more economique ici meme au Manitoba. Citons le Festival engulfed in the last few years is, in part, due to du Voyageur qui attire plus de 400,000 participants Anglo-American unilingualism and uniculturalism. sur une periode de dix jours chaque annee; ce In the week of July 30th, 1979, in an article entitled festival augmente sensiblement le chiffre d'affaire de Tongue-Tied, Senator Fulbright unequivocally commercants, hoteliers et restaurateurs de Winnipeg. affirmed: Nous pouvons aussi parler de l'attrait touristique de St-Boniface qui contribue au gagne-pain de plusieurs MME PROTEAU: "Our linguistic and cultural centaines de personnes dans notre ville. myopia is losing us friends, business and respect in lci, je voudrais faire un petit aparte sur le journal le the world. Unfortunately, foreign language and Free Press d'hier soir. 11 y a un article en page un cultural studies have often been discouraged at the signe Michael Doyle qui s'intitule "Foreign Aid Vow high-school level because many guidance counsellors Praised". A l'interieur de cet article M. Young qui believe that this kind of knowledge has little s'adresse au Canada et qui dit: commercial value, but this perception is obsolete. Already one out of eight jobs in industry and one out SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: of five in agriculture depend on international trade. If this argument is valid for the United States, Many more positions may soon require the would it not be more so for Canada? Would there secondary skill of a foreign language. The general not be advantage to building on that which feeling is that language skills can be purchased as alrealdy exists? The francophone minority is a needed. This is a strange notion if one can visualize renewable economic resource of prime importance. the rapid-fire talk and signals used when a contract In such times of economic uncertainty, what is being negotiated and gauge the handicap under government can allow itself to ignore or even see which an American competes with foreigners facing disappear any of its resources? Several examples him at a conference table. The foreigners are usually can serve to demonstrate this economic fact in capable of communicating quickly with one another relation to the French language in Manitoba. The while the American must rely on the accuracy of an Festival du Voyageur attracts annually some interpreter from another culture." 400,000 participants, many of whom come from Le Docteur Ravault citait aussi le rapport Perkins other areas of Manitoba and from neighbouring qui rend compte des resultas de l'enquete menee states. This Festival is an important source of par la Commission presidentielle sur les langues revenue to hotel and restaurant owners across the etrangeres et les etudes internationales. lntitule city. Also, the touristic attractions of old St. "S trength through Wisdom, A Critique of U.S. Boniface contribute to the livelihood of several Capability", Perk ins recommande fortement de hundred individuals. maximaliser cette ressource economique Here I would like to depart slightly. In last night's extraordinaire que constitue les minorites Free Press there was an article on Page 1 by linguistiques et culturelles nord-americaines. Michael Doyle, entitled, "Foreign Aid Vow SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: Praised." In this article he stated, is there Doctor Ravault also quoted the Perkins report someone who is a Mr. Young who is here speaking which detailed the results of a Presidential to Canada saying:

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"Your bilingual basis really helps in Africa deux nations au sein d'un meme etat (appelons-<;:a particularly. British and U.S. governments tend to "la reprise du Canada). L'instrument? Une concentrate on English-speaking African nations constitution nouvelle; pas un repltrage, un recollage whereas Canada's status as a French-speaking ou un reclouage de la veille. Pas un rapetassage nation opens it up to about half the countries in dans les coulisses ou la candeur a fait place au Africa, nations normally under the influence of cynisme et la verite est une commodite d'occasion. France." Cela nous donne done acces a deux fois La methode? Une conference constitutionnelle plus de pays seulement en Afrique. pleniere, justement et efficacement representative Enfin, il y a une derniere raison d'ordre des peuples canadiens, ou il sera reconnu qu'il existe philosophique et politique qui sert a expliquer des droits nationaux (collectifs) aussi bien que des pourquoi le fait fran<;:ais est important pour le droits personnels, et que certaines garanties sont Manitoba. Nous voulons ici vous citer in extenso des trop vitales pour etre negociables. A telle conference, extraits d'un texte d'un eminent Manitobain, pour qui il serail possible d'examiner la conception verticale les francophones gardent encore en general un tres du Canada qui produit, surtout dans le domaine des bon souvenir. Ce texte fut prononce le 20 octobre relations entre les deux races fondatrices, un 1965. provincialisme trop artificial et trop etroit pour bien - "Nous avons tous un inten'!t vital en ce qui se desservir nos interets communs, afin de la remplacer passe au Quebec. Je suis un de ceux qui croient que par une conception horizontale plus conforme a sans son fait fran<;:ais, le Canada n'est probablement l'idee de la confederation originelle, et plus apte de pas viable, car il serait alors difficile, sinon permettre a tous les Canadiens de se sentir de plus impossible, de maintenir une culture canadienne en plus chez eux n'importe ou au Canada. distincte de celle des Etats-Unis. Or j'ai !'intention "On entend si souvent ces jours-ci !'expression bien arretee que le Canada vive. C'est un done un 'unite nation ale', qu'on se croirait au milieu d'une interet personnel eclaire qui anime ma preoccupation campagne electorale. Je ne minimise en rien de notre evolution et m'enhardit de chercher a lui !'importance de !'unite nationale, mais je tiens pour faire eviter une orientation qui pourrait etre fatale a plus importante encore la qualite de cette unite, nous tous. parce qu'elle en est la condition. 11 ne faut pas nous "Le point de depart de notre argumentation c'est leurrer qu'une fois accomplis la noble tche de re­ l'idee que toutes les institutions humaines, politiques, definir nos relations comme peuples et comme religieuses, economiques, educationnelles et sociales, individus, et de cimenter notre union, le travail sera sont au service des citoyens, et non pas les citoyens termine et nous pourrons nous reposer sur nos au service de ces institutions. Elles sont bonnes dans lauriers. Une tche plus difficle encore nous attend - la mesure qu'elles sont capables de pourvoir au celle de restaurer a nos institutions canadiennes maximum de bien-etre et d'epanouissement de ses politiques, culturelles, et sociales leur base membres. Elles sont done possible de re-examen essentielle d'independance economique. - selon le critere de leur utilite. Elles sont aussi, sujet "Si nous ne voulons pas que tous nos efforts de aux exigences de la permanence et de la stabilite qui canadianisme aient ete en vain, il nous faut acquitter sont essentielles a leur bon fonctionnement, notre hypotheque americaine raisonnablement, revisables." honorablement et sans detriment au bien-etre Je cite toujours. "Cette idee est si clairement dans general. 11 y en a d'autres parmi nous pour qui le la meilleure tradition de la civilisation occidentale, et nationalisme canadien est vieux-jeu, rustique, si conforme a l'ideologie qu'on appelle "humanisme paroissiale et pas du tout sophistique. lis se disent chretien" qu'il est impossible de ne pas lui accorder internationalistes, sans se rendre compte qu'ils ne un enthousiaste accueil. Mais si le principe est sont que des acolytes de nationalistes etrangers plus excellent, il ne faut pas oublier que le terme d'un fins qu'eux. 11 y en a d'autres encore parmi nous qui voyage est determine autant par la route choisie que n'accordent de valeur qu'a ce qui est mesurable en par le point de depart. 11 est done fort desirable termes de dollars ou de plaisirs. Pour eux la culture d'examiner les directions possibles de notre materiellement superieure des Etats-Unis est evolution pour voir ou elles menent. 11 est evident, irresistiblement attrayante. Enfin, il y a ceux qui sont par exemple, que tous les bienfaits de cette evolution tout simplement indifferents. auront ete futiles si le resultat final doit etre "La grande question de notre generation sera !'extinction de la culture canadienne a langue celle-ci: est-ce que le peuple canadien saura fran<;:aise." trouver en lui et faire prevaloir une volonte d'etre Dans les annees '60, le Quebec a vecu une canadien plus puissante que les forces erosives du election provinciale ou un des candidats avait decouragement, de l'internationalisme et de eom me slogan, "Egalite ou lndependance". Cet I'ind ifference? eminent Manitobain en parlait de la fa<;:on "Si le nationalisme canadien triomphe, le Canada suivante: "Mais il y a tout de meme une alternative vivra. Sinon, le Canada va mourir. Dans cette lutte, a l'independance du Quebec. Cette alternative, c'est nous, qui crayons qu'un nationalisme canadien sain l'egalite, une egalite vraie, substantielle, permanente, et positif, rejettant tout anti-americanisme et tout a mari usque ad mare. Comment l'atteindre cette chauvinisme, est quelque chose de bon pour notre egalite? Par le peuple canadien tout entier adoptant peuple et pour le monde, nous serons heureux, dis­ pour sienne l'idee de base de la revisibilite des je, de marcher de front avec nos compatriotes institutions et !'applicant a I' institution qui est la clef canadiens-fran<;:ais chez qui la vertu de patriotisme de voute de notre union, la constitution. n'a jamais fait defaut lorsqu'ils ont ete traite de la "L'objet de cet exercise? La re-creation, la re­ fa<;:on conseillee par Sir John A. formation et la re-affirmation de notre Confederation, MacDonald: "Traitez-les comme une nation, et ils dont !'essence est la re-conciliation fraternelle de agiront comme un peuple libre - genereusement"."

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Dans la troisieme partie, nous voulons ici parler langue officielle et ce dans des ecoles homogenes de des principes a inscrire dans une nouvelle langue officielle. constitution canadienne. 11 est entendu que l a En quatrieme partie de ce troisieme chapitre: Les nouvelle constitution dans son entier interesse les droits collectifs. Franco-Manitobains. Par contre, dans ce memoire, En plus d'inclure dans la constitution un ensemble nous voulons nous en tenir le plus possible a ce qui de garanties minimum devant assurer la liberte et a trait aux droits linguistiques en general, et a l'egalite des citoyens sur le plan individuel, il faudrait !'application de ces droits en particulier. 11 important ajouter une serie de droits collectifs qui permettront de comprendre ici que nous travaillons sur les aux minorites officielles d'atteindre sur le plan social principes de ce que nous voulons voir appliquer au et culture! un statut egal a celui de la majorite. Cette Manitoba car se sont les principes que la province reconnaissance des droits collectifs exige que les devra elle-meme mettre en application dans notre gouvernements agissent suite aux revendications province. d'une communaute minoritaire officielle en vue Dans les preliminaires d'une constitution, nous d'assurer a celle-ci !'octroi de pouvoirs ou de voudrions voir les trois choses suivantes. 1) Une services sans lesquels elle ne peut pas se developper nouvelle constitution fondee sur la double realite de en son plein potentiel. L'obligation constitutionnelle a !'association de deux peuples fondateurs et de dix laquelle donne lieu les droits collectifs est provinces est necessaire, et ceci sans prejudice aux double: elle comprend la reconnaissance de la droits des autochtones. 2) Une nouvelle constitution collectivite officielle en situaton d'inferiorite et la mise doit etre mise en vigueur par un mecanisme en oeuvre de mesures speciales devant pallier a strictement canadien. 3) Une nouvelle constitution cette situation de fait. doit reconnaitre que le franc;:ais et l'anglais sont les Ces droits collectifs prevoiraient done que les deux langues officielles du Canada. collectivites linguistiques minoritaires de langues Au preambule, premierement, le preambule de la officielles auraient droit a des institutions distinctes constitution doit affirmer la pleine souverainete du dans les domaines pedagogiques, culture! et social. Canada. Deuxiemement, le preambule de la En conclusion. A son inauguration de 1960, John constitution doit enumerer les objectifs de la F. Kennedy disait "Ne demandez pas ce que votre federation, notamment: le respect des libertes pays peut faire pour vous; demandez plut6t ce que fondamentales, des droits linguistiques individuels et vous pouvez faire pour votre pays". collectifs et des libertes democratiques; le principe La collectivite francophone du Manitoba ne de la redistribution de la richesse nationale; demande que de pouvoir continuer a mieux !'affirmation de la place particuliere des deux peuples contribuer a son pays, et ce a tous les niveaux, fondateurs au sein des institutions canadiennes; economique, culture!, social, politique, recreatif. Nous !'importance pour les gouvernements provinciaux de vous demandons par centre une seule chose: s.v.p. reconnaitre leur communaute minoritaire officielle et laissez-nous le faire dans notre langue. Si comme de prendre les mesures necessaires en vue de gouvernement, vous etes d'accord avec ceci, nous donner une plus grande realite a l'egalite des pourrions a ce moment-la cooperer avec vous pour peuples fondateurs. developper cette ressource naturelle d'une part pour Troisieme partie: Comment atteindre ces le bienfait du plus grand nombre de Manitobains et objectifs. En plus, le systeme gouvernemental, soit le d'autre part pour une union canadienne reelle et parlement et les assemblees legislatives provinciales fondee sur le principe du respect des individus et doivent etablir les moyens pour garantir les points des peuples. suivants: premierement, les droits fondamentaux Comme legislateurs, vous avez un enorme defi individuels et collectifs. devant vous; mais tout defi est aussi une occasion Deuxiemement, les droits individuels qui doivent de construire et d'evoluer. Nous vous suggerons s'etendre aux libertes publiques et politiques, et a d'utiliser la plein creativite de vos ressources !'election libre et democratique des gouvernements. humaines pour imaginer ce que pourrait etre le Troisiemement, les doits linguistiques individuels Manitoba linguistiquement et culturellement riche. qui doivent s'etendre aux domaines suivants: - le Les associations francophones qui vous presentent droit de s'exprimer en franc;:ais ou en anglais devant ce memoire reiterent leur volonte de cooperer avec le parlement federal et les legislatures provinciales; le vous dans ce sens. droit a la traduction des lois, des archives, des Unissons-nous a nouveau comme nous l'avons fait comptes-rendus et des proces-verbaux du parlement il y a cent dix ans au Manitoba. Nous pouvons du Canada et des legislatures de toutes les ensemble donner l'exemple des bases d'une nouvelle provinces; le droit aux services en franc;:ais ou en Confederation canadienne adaptee aux exigences anglais dans les bureaux des gouvernements federal d'un deuxieme siecle de vie. Nos petits enfants nous et provinciaux et des societes d'Etat situes dans les en remercierons. capitales et dans les regions de sorte qu'il devienne En conclusion, !'eminent Manitobain que nous normal de transiger avec son gouvernement dans sa avons cite in extenso un peu plus haut etait langue; le droit d'utiliser le franc;:ais ou l'anglais l'honorable Duff Roblin, a ce temps, premier ministre devant les tribunaux canadiens ainsi que dans les manitobain. Ce discours avait ete prononce a Trois­ procedures et document des cours; le droit a des Rivieres en 1965. Personne ne peut s'empecher de proces tenus entierement dans la langue franc;:aise noter comment ces paroles gardent toute leur juste ou anglaise dans toutes les provinces et devant les valeur meme aujourd'hui en 1980. tribunaux etablis par le parlement du Canada; le Je voudrais maintenant passer a !'annexe I - droit a l'enseignement dans leur langue maternelle Aperc;:u historique de la limitation du fait franc;:ais au pour les enfants de tous les citoyens canadiens de Canada et revoir avec vous quelques-uns des faits

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historiques les plus saillants face au fait franc;:ais au "This idea is to be clearly in the finest tradition of Canada. accidental civilization, and so conforming to what En 1871, au Nouveau-Brunswick, une loi supprime we call "Christian humanism" that it is impossible les ecoles catholiques et interdit l'enseignement du not to receive it with enthusiasm. franc;:ais dans les ecoles. En 1877, une loi interdit "However, if the principle is excellent, one must l'enseignement du franc;:ais a l'le du Prince-Edouard. not forget that the end of a journey is as much En 1980, abolition des ecoles franc;:aises publiques determined by the route that is chosen as by the au Manitoba dans !'abolition des ecoles point of departure. lt is therefore very important to confessionnelles qui etaient a ce moment-la examine the possible directions of our evolution confessionnelles franc;:aises catholiques et and to see where they lead. lt is evident, for confessionnelles et confessionnelles protestantes example, that all the benefits of this evolution will anglaises. Interdiction aussi par une loi speciale de have been futile if the final result is to be the l'usage du franc;:ais des les cours de justice et a la extinction of the French speaking Canadian legislature du Manitoba faisant de l'anglais la seule culture." langue officielle au Manitoba. En 1892, le Conseil des During the 1960s, Quebec went through an Territoires du Nord-Ouest interdit lui aussi election where one of the candidates had as his l'enseignement du franc;:ais. En 1905, rattachement slogan, "Equality or Independence". The person de I' Alberta et de la Saskatchewan a la we are quoting was giving his opinion on a Confederation. Le premier ministre federal, Wilfrid slogan: "But there is surely an alternative in Laurier, doit sacrifier les droits linguistiques des Quebec independence. That alternative is equally a francophones de ces deux nouvelles provinces. true equality, substantial, permanent, a mari usque En 1912, le Keewatin, l'un des districts des ad mare." Territoires du Nord-Ouest, interdit a son tour les "How do we get this equality? By having all of the ecoles confessionnelles et l'enseignement franc;:ais people of Canada adopt as their own the basic sur son territoire. En 1912, publication en Ontario du idea of re-examination of institutions and applying Reglement 17 qui interdit !'utilisation du franc;:ais it to its institutions which is the keystone to our comme langue d'enseignement dans tous les milieux union, the Constitution. scolaires de la province. En 1916, au Manitoba, "The object of this exercise? The recreation, the suppression de l'enseignement du franc;:ais dans reformation and the reaffirmation of our toutes les ecoles publiques. Confederation whose essence is the fraternal Je suis maintenant prete en collaboration avec reconciliation of two nations in the heart of the mon collegue, M. Ronald Bisson, a repondre a toutes state. Let us call it the recovery of Canada. les questions que vous voudrez bien me poser. "The instrument? A new Constitution, not a replastering or repatching the old, not a patch up SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: in the wings, but sincerity by which the cynicism This gives us access to at least twice as many • and truth is an occasional commodity. countries, even only in Africa. "The method? A plenary constitutional conference, Finally, there is a last reason, philosophical and justly and effectively representative of the political by nature, which serves to explain why the Canadian cultures, where it will be recognized that French fact is important to Manitoba. certain national collective rights exist as well as We wish to quote in extenso the extracts of a personal rights, and that certain guarantees are speech of an eminent Manitoban for whom, in too vital to be negotiable. general, the francophones have a fond memory. "Such a conference would make it possible to This speech was made on the 20th of October, examine the vertical concept of Canada which 1965. produces a too artificial and too narrow "We all have a vital interest in what is going on in provincialism to serve well the common interests, Quebec. I am one of those who believe that particularly in the area of relations between the without its French fact, Canada is probably not two founding races, and replace this by a viable, and it would be difficult, if not impossible, horizontal concept more in accord with the original to maintain a Canadian culture distinct from that idea of Confederation and more likely to allow all of the United States. Canadians to feel more and more at home "Now, I have a very definite intention that Canada anywhere in Canada. live. lt is therefore a personal interest which ''I'm not minimizing in any way the importance of prompts my preoccupation in our evolution and the national unity, but I believe it to be more encourages me to seek to help it to avoid a important still the quality of that unity that is its direction which may well be fatal to us all. basis. "The take-off point of our argument is the idea "We must not delude ourselves in thinking that that all human institutions; political, religious, once the noble deed is accomplished of having economic, educational and social are at the service redefined our relations as peoples and as of the citizens and not the citizens at the service of individuals, and of having cemented our reunion, the institutions. They are good only inasmuch as the work will have been done and we may rest they are able to provide the best possible well­ upon our laurels. being for the development of their members. They "If we do not wish that all our efforts of are therefore liable to re-examination according to Canadianism be in vain, we must discharge our the criteria of their effectiveness. Subject to the American obligation reasonable, honourably and demand of permanence and the stability which are without detriment to the general welfare. essential to their proper operation. They are also "There are others amongst us for whom Canadian to be revised. nationalism is old hat, rustic, parochial and very

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unsophisticated . They call themselves English in the provincial and federal government "internationalists" without realizing that they are offices, and government services located in the but the acolytes of foreign nationalists much more capitols and elsewhere in the region so that it clever than they. becomes normal to transact business with one's ''There are still others amongst us who see value own government in one's own language; the right only in that which is measured in terms of money to use either French or English before the or pleasure. And, finally, there are those who are Canadian courts as well as in the procedures and simply indifferent. documents in these courts; the right to trials held ., A basic question of our generation will be entirely in French or in English in all provinces and this: Will the Canadian people be able to find before the courts established in the Canadian within it a will to be Canadian which is more Parliament; the right to official language minorities powerful than the erosive forces of to have their children educated in the mother discouragement, internationalism and indifference? tongue in schools of their own language. "If Canadian nationalism triumphs, Canada will live; otherwise, Canada will die. In this struggle, we Fourth Portion, Collective Rights: Further to who believe that a wholesome, positive Canadian insuring the basic individual freedom and the nationalism which rejects all anti-Americanism and equality of the individual rights, the Constitution all chauvinism is a good thing for our people and must include a series of collective rights to for the world. We will be happy, I say, to walk guarantee to the official minorities a social and abreast with our French-Canadian compatriots cultural status equal to that of the majority. These whose virtue of patriotism has never failed when collective rights would be translated into they were treated in the manner suggested by Sir government action when an official language John A. MacDonald, "Treat them as a nation and minority group requests services in its language to they will behave as a free people - generously." ensure its full development. A constitutional Number 3. Principles to be inscribed in a new obligation follows the recognition of collective Canadian Constitution: lt is understood that the rights at two levels; firstly, it implies recognizing Constitution as a whole interests Franco­ official linguistic communities in a minority Manitobans. However, in this brief, we wish to situation and secondly, it implies special measures discuss mainly the questions of linquistic rights to offset the position of inferiority brought about and the implementation of these rights. by this situation. These rights would lead to the First, a new Constitution based on the double establishment of distinct social, cultural and reality of the association of two founding peoples educational institutions for an official language and 10 provinces is necessary, and this without minority. prejudice to aboriginal rights. In conclusion, John F. Kennedy in his inaugural Secondly, a new Constitution must be put into speech in 1960 said, "Do not ask what your practice by a strictly Canadian mechanism. country can do for you, but ask rather what you Three, a new Constitution must recognize that can do for your country". French and English are the two official languages of Canada. The Manitoba francophone community asks but to be able to continue to better contribute to the In the Preamble: The preamble of the Constitution must affirm Canada's complete community at all levels, be they economic, cultural, sovereignty. social, political, recreational, etc. We ask but one Secondly, the preamble of the Constitution must thing: please let us do it in our own language. If enumerate the objectives of the federation which as a government you agree to this, we will then be are: the respect of fundamental freedoms, able to co-operate with you to develop this natural individual and collective linguistic rights and the resource for the benefit of the greater number of democratic freedoms; the principle of redistribution Manitobans on the one hand, and on the other for of national wealth; the affirmation of a particular a true Canadian union based on the principle of place held by the two founding peoples within the respect of the individual as a people. Canadian institutions; the importance of the As legislators, you are facing an enormous Provincial Governments to recognize their official challenge; every challenge is also an opportunity to minority community and to take necessary build and develop. We would suggest you use this measures with a view to giving a greater reality to full creativity of human resources in order to the equality of the two founding peoples. imagine what a linguistically and culturally rich Third point, How to achieve these objectives: The Manitoba might be. The francophone associations governmental system, that is, Parliament and which are representing this brief, reiterate their Legislative Assemblies must establish the means willingness to co-operate with you in this direction. by which to guarantee the following points: The Let us unite once again as we did 110 years ago in fundamental individual and collective rights; the Manitoba, in order to undertake, with you, the individual rights that extend to public and political recovery of Canada. We in Manitoba would freedoms and to free democratic election of together give the example of the basis of a new governments; individual linguistic rights which must Canadian Confederation, adapted to the needs of cover the following areas: the right to French or a second century of life. Our grandchildren will English expression before the Federal Parliament thank you for it. or Provincial Legislatures; the right to translation In conclusion, the eminent Manitoban whom we of laws, archives, minutes and procedures from the quoted in absentia above, was The Honorable Duff Parliament and Legislatures of Canada in all Roblin, who was at the time Premier of Manitoba. provinces; the rights of services in French or in The speech was delivered in Trois-Rivieres in the

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province of Quebec in 1965. One cannot help but from Confederation, but I think that you're here and note how appropriate it remains to this day. you are to receive a fair hearing and I am prepared I wish to pass on Annex 1, An historic resume of to give you a fair hearing. What could the provincial the restrictions of the French fact in Canada. Let government do at this time to implement what you're us take a look at some of the French facts, the asking? main ones. vis-a-vis, the French fact in Canada. - In 1871: In New Brunswick, a law is passed MME PROTEAU: Premierement, le gouvernement abolishing catholic schools and for bids the du Manitoba doit d'abord reconnaitre en principe - teaching of French in the schools. que nous existons non seulement en tant qu'individu In 1877: A law forbids the teaching of French in mais aussi en tant que collectivite. Ce n'est pas Prince Edward Island. facile, nous savons, de donner a une minorite quelle In 1890: The abolition of French public schools in qu'elle soit des droits linguistiques pour la simple Manitoba. The prohibition of the use of French and raison qu'une minorite n'est jamais regroupee en these were separate schools and this should apply entier dans un seul endroit. Elle est dispersee a to them too. There was also prohibition of the use !ravers la province. La reconnaissance du groupe of French in the courts of the Legislature of francophone comme un groupe collectif et comme Manitoba making English the only official language une minorite collective lui donne une entite in Manitoba. particuliere et facilite de beaucoup !'application de In 1892: The Council of Northwest Territories was moyens pour lui donner des services. Le principe de also prohibited teaching in French. la reconnaissance du groupe comme groupe collectif In 1905: The inclusion of Alberta and est la premiere chose que l'on doit faire. Si on ne Saskatchewan to Confederation. The federal Prime veut pas reconnaitre les francophones comme Minister, Sir Wilfred Laurier must sacrifice the groupe, comme collectivite, que l'on peut servir par linguistic rights of the francophones in those two des moyens concrets, <;:a ne donne pas grand'chose new provinces. d'aller discuter des moyens ensuite. In 1912: Keewatin, one of the districts of the SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: Northwest Territories, prohibits also To begin with, the provincial government of denominational schools in the teaching of French Manitoba must recognize that in principle we exist in its territories. not only as individuals but also as a group. We In 1912: Ontario publishes Regulation 17, know it is not easy to give a minority, no matter prohibiting the use of French as a teaching language in its teaching institutions in the which it is, linguistic rights simply because of the province. fact that a minority is not always recognized and is In 1916: In Manitoba, abolishing the teaching of not always situated in one area, it is dispersed French for all public schools. around the province. The recognition of the I will perhaps now, in collaboration with my francophone group as a collective minority gives it colleague, Mr. Bisson, I will be happy to answer an empathy that is particular and would facilitate any questions you wish to pose. more easily the possibility of giving it services. lt is a principle of recognizing the group as a collective MR. CHAIRMAN: To members of the committee, group, which is the first step that has to be taken. are there any questions to the delegate? If you do not want to recognize the francophones Mr. Kovnats. as a collective group, who can be served by specific means, there is very little point of MR. KOVNATS: First of all, Mr. Chairman, before I discussing the means by which it can be done on ask any questions, would my questions be translated this point. into French to be presented to the people that will be answering the questions? M. RONALD BISSON: Je pourrais donner peut-etre quelques exemples de services que pourrait offrir ce MR. CHAIRMAN: I would think so. gouvernement a la minorite francophone du Manitoba, la minorite officielle du Manitoba. Un MR. KOVNATS: How do they get the translation? exemple, je crois qu'il serail simp le a ce gouvernement de mettre sur pied un service de MR. CHAIRMAN: They will have to get one of the langue fran<;:aise qui pourrait etre sous le ministre earphone sets. des Affaires culturelles et ce service offrirait a la population qui le desire toute une serie de services MME PROTEAU: Ce n'est pas necessaire. it's not en fran<;:ais soit dans le milieu, soit au niveau interne necessary. du gouvernement. Ce que je dis c'est ceci: je ne crois que c'est possible, et peut-etre meme MR. KOVNATS: think we're set up for souhaitable, de vouloir bilinguiser toute une fonction simultaneous translation, Mrs. Proteau, and I think publique. On a vu avec d'autres experiences que <;:a that we should follow the routine for simultaneous ne fonctionne pas tres tres bien. A ce moment-la, translation. I do understand that you are quite etant donne que nous sommes quand meme une conversant in both languages. If this is the manner in which we are going to carry on, then I'll carry on. petite minorite, nous sommes que six pour cent de la population, il serail possible je crois de concentrer MR. CHAIRMAN: Proceed please. dans un ministere toute une serie de services qui pourrait desservir les gens qui le veulent. Alors <;:a MR. KOVNATS: I have not been a supporter of n'incombe en rien une pression sur les gens qui ne your views concerning the separation of Quebec sont pas bilingue. Par contre, le gouvernement rend

76 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980 un service reel a la population qui le desire. a c'est vous connaissez tres bien. a c'est un exemple qui un exemple. Je pourrais vous donner d'autres protege pour le Manitoba le droit de parler en exemples; il y en a beaucoup. De fait, cette fin de francais dans I'Assemblee legislative et dans les semaine, nous avons eu une rencontre a St-Boniface cours de la province. Ce que je dis c'est qu'on peut au College. 11 y avail au-dessus de 250 participants maintenant etendre ces droits-la a d'autres niveaux, francophones qui ont discute de cela toute une par exemple au niveau des ecoles. Je me souviens journee: "Qu'est-ce qu'il nous taut pour pouvoir !res bien qu'en 1978 a Montreal les premiers vivre en francais ici meme au Manitoba". La-dessous ministres du Canada, c'est-a-dire les premiers les delegues ont donne toute une serie de services et ministres des provinces, ont tous adopte le principe si vous voulez, moi je serais tres pret a m'assoir de l'enseignement de la langue de la minorite avec vous dans un autre temps et vous les remettre. officielle. Et notre premier ministre etait un de ceux qui etait d'accord avec ce principe. De ce cote-la, ce SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: que vous me poser comme question, vous avez deja I could give you some examples at the moment of une reponse. a deja ete fait en terme de principes certain services that might be offered by this maintenant, il s'agit de continuer son application. government to the francophone minority of Manitoba, the official minority of Manitoba. SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: One example, I believe, it would be easy enough Can I answer your question, Mr. Kovnats? I must for this government to establish a service, a say that already within the Canadian Constitution French-speaking service, and at that time, as I there exists a protection for Manitoba and it is said, a French language service which could be Section 23, which you know is one example which under the Cultural Minister's govern, and it could protects for Manitoba the right to speak in French be offered to the population which would desire to in the Legislative Assembly, as well as in the receive it, a series of services given in French, provincial courts. What I am saying is that we either in a locality or in the specific areas of could now expand those rights to other levels, for government. instance, to the levels of the school. I remember in I am trying to say that I don't believe that it's 1978, the Premiers of the provinces adopted the necessary or even a desire to establish as a principle of the teaching of the official minority bilingual situation a unilateral government service. language and our Premier was one of the ones We know what problems that can give. We are who was in complete agreement with the only 6 percent of the population. We realize that suggestions. This has already been done in we could concentrate in one particular area of the principle, now it's a question of continuing the government a whole group of services that would application of this rule. be available to the people desiring them. The MME PROTEAU: Est-ce que ca reepond government could give an actual service to a part suffisamment a votre question? of the population which needs these services but concentrated under one area of government SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: service. Does this sufficiently answer your question, Mr. This weekend, for instance, we had a meeting at Kovnats? the college, there were over 250 French-speaking participants, who discussed on this question for MR. KOVNATS: To some degree. Merci beaucoup. the entire day. What do we absolutely need in Si tu paries plus lentement, je te comprends. order to live as French individuals in Manitoba? (Translation not available) They suggested an entire selection of services which we would be appreciative of having and I MME PROTEAU: Vous avez fait beaucoup de can certainly pass this list on to you later if you progres en francais. would like to see it. SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: If you speak slower, I understand you. You have MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kovnats, do you have a made great progress in French. Thank you. second question? MR. KOVNATS: Merci beaucoup. MR. KOVNATS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. What I had been thinking about, we are discussing the MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mercier Constitution, whether it should be initiated into the Constitution by written in stone, whether it should be HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Thank suggested, whether it is the rights now that the you, Mr. Chairman. There has been a great deal of Franco-Canadian has and we're sort of taking it into controversy over some of the provisions in the the Manitoba scene, but I think I have to look at the proposed Charter of Rights with respect to minority whole picture, the whole of the Canadian scene. How language educational rights and the use of the would you suggest, and I'm looking for suggestions, phrase "where numbers warrant". I wonder if you on how we can protect these rights and these could give the committee the benefit of your views suggestions in Manitoba through the Canadian on that subject. Constitution? MME PROTEAU: Quand on parle de "la ou le M. BISSON: Pour repondre a votre question, M. nombre le justifie", ca met un droit conditione! a la Kovnats, je dois vous dire que deja dans la population. Or, nous sommes d'avis que ou nous Constitution canadienne il existe une protection pour avons des droits ou nous n'avons pas. Si nous avons le Manitoba et c'est evidemment la section 23 que des droits, il doit y avoir moyen de les respecter

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sans mettre des conditions. Et chaque fois que l'on MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have a second question, dit "la ou le nombre le justifie", on met une Mr. Mercier? condition au droit. Une constitution devrait elaborer sur les droits et ensuite il pourrait y avoir des MR. MERCIER: No, thank you. reglements pour !'application de ces droits. Je sais bien que "la ou le nombre le justifie" dans !'esprit de MR. CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Westbury is next. bien du monde, c'est un moyen pratique de resoudre MRS. JUNE WESTBURY (Fort Rouge): M. le I un probleme tres difficile. Mais ]]la ou le nombre le justifie" c;:a devient tres restrictif et c;:a limite le droit president, je ne suis pas un membre de ce comite, enormement. Ensuite qui decidra quel nombre justifie SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: quoi? Ce seront evidemment les provinces qui Mr. Chairman, I am not a member of the conserveront par exemple en education le droit de committee, gerer leur systeme d'education. Si une province decide qu'il taut 50 enfants pour qu'il y ait MRS. WESTBURY: but I wish to speak anyway. You suffisamment d'enfants pour justifier un programme asked for questions from members of the committee. franc;:ais, alors dans un village ou il y en a 30, ces 30 I don't have a copy of the brief, Mr. Chairman, and I enfants-la n'ont pas le droit a leur education. wonder if it would be possible for me to receive Je crois qu'il y aurait moyen tout en enlevant "la copies of the briefs that have been presented to ou le nombre le justifie" de trouver par la suite apres date. I was a little late as well, and I apologize for la Constitution, les moyens propices pour repondre that. I have been away on an emergency and I just effectivement aux droits des francophones des got back late last night. provinces de I'Ouest et de I'Est et des anglophones I gather from the presentation that you are asking de la province de Quebec de repondre correctement also at a federal level for these same linguistic rights a leurs droits tout en tenant compte des difficultes for the English-speaking minority in Quebec because administratives que c;:a peut causer. Parce que c'est you have made a point about linguistic minorities bien sur s'il y a seulement deux personnes de here which would apply equally to Quebec in the minorite officielle tout a fait dans le nord de la same situation as the Franco-Manitobans' rights in • province, qu'est-ce qu'on fait face a des ecoles. Or il this part of the country. That is correct? y a peut-EHre moyen de s'en sortir si on ne se restreint pas avec cette histoire de "la ou le nombre MME PROTEAU: Cui, c'est bien sur que si nous le justifie". reclamons des droits pour la minorite francophone dans les neuf provinces du Canada ou la majorite est SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: anglophone, nous reclamons les droits semblables When we speak, "there where the number justifies ou identiques pour la majorite anglophone du it", it establishes a conditional right for population. Quebec. We feel that either we have rights or we don't. If we do have rights, there must be a way by which SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: you respect them without establishing conditions Yes, if we request rights for the francophone and every time we put down the clause, "there minorities in the nine provinces of Canada where where the member justifies it", we establish it a they are minorities, obviously we also require the condition on this right same rights for the anglophone minority in One should establish rights and then followed by Quebec. rules for the application of these rights, not conditions. I know that in the spirit of many people M. BISSON: Et la-dessus, Mme Westbury, je the citation of, "there where the number justifies voudrais ajouter un peu. Pour revenir a la question it", is reasonable but it becomes very restrictive. it de M. Mercier, je crois que c;:a setouche. re limits the right to a phenomenal amount. Lorsqu'on parlait tout a l'heure de "ou le nombre le Who is going to decide what the magic number is justifie" dans la question scolaire, lorsqu'il y a eu des that will justify this? The province which wants to presentations sur le Bill 31 pour la Loi scolaire, un de maintain the rights to govern his own educational mes amis qui s'appelle Armand Bedard, avail fait rulings. However, if the province decided there has une presentation pour demander qu'on reconnaisse to be 50 children to justify a French course for a dans la Loi du Manitoba les ecoles franc;:aises. A ce possibility of teaching in French, a village that only moment-la il donnait un exemple que je crois tres has 30 children then has to sacrifice these rights to pertinent. Au Quebec, la minorite anglophone studying in its own mother tongue. One should contr61e a tous les niveaux ses institutions scolaires. really study the rules in order to answer properly Meme dans une region comme l'est du Quebec ou la the needs of the francophones in the west, and the minorite anglophone est vraiment minoritaire dans le anglophones in Quebec consider the possibility of sens qu'il y a tres tres peu d'anglophones sur un giving them their rights while considering, too, not grand territoire, ils ont leur propre commission putting in clauses that are going to cause all sorts scolaire. 11 y a deux secondaires anglophones et of problems. quatre ou cinq ecoles elementaires anglophones. After all, one must not be ridiculous. If there are Alors a ce moment-la, ce droit-la s'applique deja a la two English-speaking people in a northern population du Quebec anglophone. development which is entirely French, you're not SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: going to run around demanding the impossible, On this, Mrs. Westbury, I would like to add - to but do remove the clause, "there where the come back to Mr. Mercier's question, too - when number justifies it", because it becomes we spoke a while ago of "there where the number restrictive. justifies it" in the schools, the school question,

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when there were presentations on Bill 31 for the verticale done strictement a l'interieur de la province school rights, a friend of mine, Armand Bedard, ou on peut dire, "ils sont seulement 40 000, ea vaut had made a presentation requesting that the law of pas la peine". Ou nous pouvons nous regarder d'une Manitoba should recognize the French-speaking !aeon horizontale a travers le Canada ou nous schools in Manitoba. He gave an example at that sommes sept millions de Canadiens-franeais. Pour time which I find pertinent. In Quebec, the English sept millions, ea vaut la peine. Et je crois que c'est minority at all levels controls its own school ea un changement d'attitude profond qui est requis institutions, scholastic institutions, even in the east de bien des gens dans ce debat constitutionnel. of Quebec, where the English minority is really a Nous devons commencer a nous regarder comme minority in the sense that there are very few of Canadiens Coast-to-Coast d'une !aeon horizontale them, it's a huge territory. They have their own pour les droits des minorites de langues officielles. school board; there are two primary schools and a SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: couple of high schools. Already this right has been In order to continue in the same sense, Mrs. applied to the anglophone minority in Quebec. Westbury, in our document, you will read in Annex 1, the restriction of the French fact in Canada in MR. CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Westbury. general. We gave examples going from New MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you. But under your Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Ontario, recommendation, those would be intrinsic and basic Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. You will see rights, rather than something that is sort of granted that which we discussed this morning is not, I by a government or by the local community, as really repeat, is not, strictly a question of smaller groups has been the case in the past. of francophones in St. Boniface who are coming to see their government in Winnipeg to obtain a few MME PROTEAU: Oui, voila. Actuellement, il y a more privileges. certains droits tres tres de base qui sont reconnus, Actually, it is a question of national right and Mr. par exemple, au Manitoba le droit a ce service de ce Roblin, in Trois-Rivieres in '65, had developed this matin. Mais autrement, tout le reste c'est des droits thing. We can look at it from two points of view; qui sont toleres. C'est des services que l'on tolere et on the one hand, on a vertical level strictly within qui reste toujours un privilege. Ce ne sont pas des the province, where we can say there are only droits, ce sont des privileges que l'on tolere et ea 40,000, you know, why bother? Or we can look at reste sous la bonne volonte des gens qui it at a horizontal level going right across Canada, gouvernent: soit des commissions scolaires ou des where we are 7 million French-Canadians, and for representants municipaux ou provinciaux. Alors si on 7 million people, it is a point of value, and it parle de droits et de droits inscrits dans une requires a fundamental change of attitude. We constitition, a ce moment, c'est une reconnaissance have to look at ourselves as Canadians coast to officielle de ce qu'a un peuple et de ce qu'a droit un coast and at the horizontal levels in order to peuple. recognize the rights of the official minorities.

SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: MR. CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Westbury. Yes, actually there are certain rights that are basic rights that are recognized; for instance, in MRS. WESTBURY: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Would you Manitoba through this interpretation service this then comment on the statements as quoted in the morning, but everything else are rights that have media by our Premier to the effect that the best way been tolerated, the services that have been to protect the rights of people is through the tolerated and they always remain a privilege. lt provincial legislatures. I think you have been saying isn't a right; it's a privilege that we are given and that these rights, as far as Franco-Manitobans are this remains under the auspices of the governing concerned, have not been protected as through the body, either the school boards or municipal legislature. Would you comment on that please? societies or provincial governing bodies, and if we are talking of rights and rights of a Constitution, MME PROTEAU: Nous serions plus qu'heureux de one should establish the fact that it is an officially pouvoir dire qu'en effet les assemblees legislatives recognized right to the population. nous ont toujours proteges. Mais ce n'est pas le cas et I' Annexe que vous avez au document le prouve. 11 M. BISSON: Et pour continuer dans le meme sens, y a enormement plus de preuves que celles-la. Mme Westbury, dans notre document vous allez lire Celles-la sont les preuves de base. 11 reste que a l'annexe I, la restriction du fait franeais au Canada quand on a cite au tout debut du document ce qui entier. Nous avons donne des exemples a partir du c'etait passe a la legislature du Manitoba 1890, il y a Nouveau-Brunswick a l'le du Prince-Edouard, en eu un commentaire qui a ete fait le journaliste et Ontario, au Manitoba, en Saskatchewan et en c'etait ceci: tout a ete fait par une majorite sourde. Alberta. Or vous voyez qu'est ce qu'on discute ce Or quand tout est laisse a la legislature, il s'agit qu'il matin n'est pas et je repete n'est pas strictement y a a la legislature une majorite ce qui sera toujours une affaire d'un petit groupe de francophone a St­ le cas face a une minorite, comme de bonnes Boniface qui vienne voir leur gouvernement a raisons, une majorite qui veulent pas comprendre, Winnipeg pour avoir des privileges: c'est reellement qui ne veulent pas savoir, qui ne veulent pas ecouter une affaire nationale. A ce moment-la, il y a un et ea y ait, la minorite n'a plus rien a dire. Alors il argument que justement M. Roblin avait developpe reste un seul recours dans un cas comme celui-la, pour Trois-Rivieres en 1965. Nous pouvons nous c'est un recours a la justice. Et c'est regarder de deux !aeons. D'une part d'une faeon malheureusement le cas a travers le Canada; les

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legislatures ne nous ont pas proteges. Nous schools. Now if it takes the Legislature 30 to 40 aimerions pouvoir dire oui, en effet, c'est notre years to recognize the value of teaching a French meilleur moyen. Mais l'histoire ne nous a pas prouve course in school, how can you expect that the cela. same type of Legislature is going to guarantee all SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: of your rights? We would be very happy to say that the Legislative You also refer to Mr. Lyon, I feel that I'm in a Assemblies have always protected us, but it is not strange position really, and that is that Mr. Lyon the case. The Annex you have with this document does not want to establish the linguistic rights in proves it. There is a great deal more proof; these the Constitution because he does not want the are just basic proofs, but there is a great deal courts to have a supremacy on the Legislatures. more proof that Legislatures have not supported Consequently, he himself brings the federal us. government into court in order to protect his own When we speak at the beginning of the document, point of view. Now I am wondering, what does he of that which passed in Manitoba in 1890, those want? Does he want to keep this right only for are comments made by the journalists which was him? He has the right to bring the federal to court everything was done by a just majority. If for something he doesn't like, but he doesn't want everything is left to the Legislature, one must to grant us the same kind of right as a minority in consider that in the Legislature there is a majority Manitoba. obviously, either that or you're working with a minority. That majority does not want to hear, to MR. CHAIRMAN: Mrs. Westbury. learn, to listen, and the minority has nothing to say. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I Now, there is only one recourse in that kind of a would just like to say what a pleasant surprise it was situation, and that is a recourse to justice, and to come in and find the simultaneous translation unhappily this has been the case right across available, at least to members of the committee. Canada. The Legislatures have not protected our rights. We would like to say that, yes, it is our best MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parasiuk, did I see your hand way, but history has proven it otherwise. up earlier? Mr. Parasiuk.

M. BISSON: Et la-dessus, je voudrais rencherir un MR. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): I just want autre point pour renforcir ce que vient de dire Mme to get an amplification of some of the answers you Proteau. Je ne veux pas etre partisan politique gave to Mrs. Westbury's questions with respect to quand je donne ma reponse. Si on regard ce qui the requirement of an entrenchment of language c'est passe au Manitoba depuis 1890, et la-dessus rights. M. Desjardins pourrait vous en conter longuement. Your Appendix talks about restrictions of the Le travail qui s'est espace sur une periode de 30 a French fact in Canada; it's factual, it's documented 40 ans pour faire reconnaitre seulement que le cours and it is in a sense a damning case against the way de franc;:ais dans les ecoles publiques du Manitoba, in which anglophones have treated francophones. At c;:a prit effectivement a peu pres c;:a, 30 a 40 ans. the same time, there is concern by anglophones in Alors moi je me dis si c;:a prend une legislature, un Quebec and anglophones outside Quebec about a gouvernement 40 ans pour reconnaitre similar type of trend that may be occurring in l'enseignement du franc;:cais, du sujet franc;:ais, Quebec. If you document, if you took the experience comment est-ce qu'on peut esperer que ces memes since 1970, although at present the anglophones in legislatures vont garantir toute une autre serie de Quebec have far greater linguistic rights with respect droits. Ce n'est pas possible. to institutions and schools than francophone Et deuxiemement, lorsque vous faites reference, minorities in the rest of Canada. There nevertheless particulierement M. Lyon, moi je trouve une position qui est etrange. C'est que M. Lyon ne veut pas de is some type of trend to restrict those rights and droits linguistiques dans la Constitution parce qu'il there is a concern that this restriction may continue ne veut pas que les cours aient une suprematie sur beyond what exists right now. lt may in fact parallel les assemblees legislatives ou le gouvernement. Par what has taken place in the rest of Canada with contre, lui-meme amene le gouvernement federal en respect to the francophones. cours pour etre capable de prouver son point. Alors Given that, do you think that we may be able to je me demande est-ce qu'il veut, lui, garder ce droit strike again some type of bargain between the pour lui-meme d'amener le federal en cours et pas francophones in Canada, many of whom are in nous donner ce meme droit a nous comme minorite Quebec but many of whom are outside of Quebec, officielle au Manitoba. and the anglophones in Canada, many of whom are outside of Quebec but some of whom are in SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: Quebec? Do you think we can strike some type of On this point I would also like to re-enforce what bargain by an entrenchment so that both groups, in Mrs. Proteau said, and I feel slightly politically partisan in giving my answer, but when you fact, can feel some confidence that those rights consider what happened in Manitoba from 1890 - won't be taken away and therefore they can then Mr. Desjardins could refer to this - in a period turn their attention to other positive things as from 30 to 40 years the amount of work that was opposed to trying all the time to defend themselves done to have a course in French recognized in the against that which is happening right now and that schools in Manitoba took about 30 to 40 years, which they fear may happen five years down the just to allow a course to be accepted in the line?

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MME PROTEAU: C'est surement possible. Mr. I also want to add to something you said, Mr. LE�vesque lui-meme d'ailleurs avail deja il y a Parasiuk. One must understand where this plusieurs annees, propose aux provinces des question of rights came from in the Canadian echanges de droits, si on peut dire "des bargains" Constitution. I am not going to give you a history francophones hors Quebec, anglophones du Quebec. course, however, it is essential to remember and Maintenant, je dois vous dire que le probleme est to understand that the only reason that in The complexe; les solutions ne sont pas faciles et je vous BNA Act we have the protection for our language, assure que je suis bien contente de ne pas etre dans it is because the anglophone minority at that time les souliers de Pierre Trudeau. demanded it, they demanded it. Gait, the Father of Confederation at the time, said SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: that if we do not have these rights for our it is certainly possible. Mr. Levesque himself, Protestant English minority in Quebec, if we do not several years ago, proposed to the provinces have these rights, we will not go into certain exchanges of rights, let us say, bargaining Confederation. Now that's where it began. rights, for the francophones outside Quebec with Now I'm going to enlarge on a point that Mrs. equal rights to the anglophones in Quebec. The Proteau brought out. When you ask, is it possible solutions are not easy. The questions are complex, to make deals or bargains - a minority within and I am very happy not to be om the shoes of Quebec and minorities outside Quebec are a little Pierre Trudeau. like hostages. At that point, if it was possible to make deals, I would say certainly. If the well-being M. BISSON: Je voudrais peut-etre rencherir un peu a ce que vous dtes, Mr. Parasiuk. 11 taut comprendre of the anglophone minority in Quebec was equally d'ou est venu, dans la Confederation canadienne, guaranteed for the well-being of the francophone cette question de droit pour les minorites. La, je ne minority in Manitoba, I'd say great, go ahead. veux pas refaire tout un cours d'histoire, mais je But remember Law 101, I think it was Article 26 - crois qu'il essentiel de comprendre que la seule et the Quebec government proposed to the provinces unique raison que dans I'Acte de I'Amerique du Nord reciprocity treaties, so to speak, in Education, britannique, nous avons une protection pour la which stated this: "If you develop French schools minorite. C'est parce que la population anglophone in your area for our population, we will develop minoritaire du Quebec de ce temps-la l'exigeait. English schools in our area for your population." C'etait le pere de la Confederation, Gait, qui disait si Now this is what he suggested. As you know, nous n'avons pas les droits pour notre minorite according to the law, if an anglophone from protestante au Quebec, nous ne voulons pas entrer Winnipeg moves to the City of Quebec today, he dans la conferation. Or cet apen;:u historique, je does not have access to an English school. He crois, est assez important. a commence la. must go to a French school. One must not forget Maintenant je voudrais rencherir sur un point qu'a either, that if a Quebecer is transferred out of dit Mme Proteau: est-ce que c'est possible de faire Quebec to Victoria, he also does not have access des marches - une minorite a l'interieur du Quebec, to the French school, he has to go to an English des minorites francophones a l'exterieur du Quebec, school. So these reciprocity treaties have been un peu comme des h6tages. A ce moment-la, si on proposed about five years ago, and there wasn't a pouvait le faire, moi je dirais oui. Si le bien-etre de la single provincial government who accepted this minorite anglophone au Quebec va garantir notre type of treaty. bien-etre au Manitoba, je dirais oui, allons-y. 11 y a un Coming back to your question, stating is it petit probleme. Vous vous souvenez sans doute dans possible? The answer is "Yes", there was a la Loi 101, c'etait si je ne trompe pas !'article 26, political desire of the governments to behave in mais je ne suis pas certain, le gouvernement du this way, and as long as that political desire is not Quebec proposait aux provinces des traites de there, it will be impossible to say that everything is reciprocite en education qui disait ceci: Si vous going well everywhere, it will be impossible. developpez des ecoles franc;;aises dans vos milieux pour notre population, nous allons developpe des MR. PARASIUK: Basically, we've come up with two ecoles anglaises dans notre milieux pour votre general methods. One would be to try some system population. Parce que vous savez que selon la loi si of bilateral negotiations, where in a sense the un anglophone de Winnipeg demenage dans la ville minorities are almost hostages in that process of Quebec aujourd'hui, il n'a pas acces a l'ecole bargaining between provinces which hasn't been too anglaise. 11 doit aller a l'ecole franc;;aise. 11 ne taut successful to date, but could be something that is oublier non plus que si un Quebecois est transfere a pursued politically over the course of the next five, Victoria, lui non plus n'a pas d'acces a l'ecole ten, twenty years, and which, I think, would consume franc;;aise, il doit aller a l'ecole anglaise. a fair amount of our time. Or si le traite de reciprocite etait propose il y a Secondly, another approach would be to entrench deja quatre ou cinq ans, et aucun gouvernment those types of minority official linguistic rights in a provincial n'a accepte ce style de traite, done pour Constitution, have it guaranteed, and we could move venir a question: est-ce que c'est possible, la on to other aspects. Which of the two methods reponse est "oui" s'il y avail une volonte politique would the Society Francophone prefer? des gouvernements d'agir dans ce sens. Et tant et aussi longtemps que cette volonte politique n'y sera MME PROTEAU: Vous savez, on peut jaser pas, il ne sera pas possible de dire tout va bien longtemps de choses-la. Mais la protection des partout. a va etre impossible. droits est superieure au marchandage des minorites. SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION:

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You know, we can talk about this forever, but the organized for this group, it doesn't take anything protection of rights is far superior to the away from the majority. lt doesn't disturb them, bargaining of the minorities. but it gives a parallel service that is smaller, limited possibly geographically, because after all, MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Desjardins. you don't find the need everywhere, so the services will be placed in such a way that they will M. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Oui, be accessible to those who need it. lt would si on reconnaissait nos droits, nous francophones ici certainly relieve this incredible tension that exists au Manitoba. si on nous donnait les moyens and the panic that exists in the hearts of the d'exercer ces droits, est-ce que je peux voir des anglophones wondering whether or not we're going difficultes, est-ce que cette minorite francophone to eat them alive - how we could do that, I don't peut coexister avec les anglophones en harmonia, en know, but however, there is a fear. unite. ou si vous voyez une possibilite d'enrichir ici la province du Manitoba. Est-ce que vous pourriez MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have second question? elaborer sur c;;a? MR. DESJARDINS: No, that's fine. SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: If one recognized the rights of the francophones in MR. CHAIRMAN: Are they any other members of Manitoba, if you gave us the possibility of the committee that wish to question our delegation? exercising our rights, can you foresee any Seeing none, I thank you very kindly for your difficulties for this French minority? Could it exist I appearance. with the anglophones in harmony, in union, or can you foresee the possibility of enrichment of the MME PROTEAU: (French spoken but transcription province of Manitoba? Could you expound on not available) Merci beaucoup. that? SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: MME PROTEAU: Selon ce que l'on peut voir et We have other copies of the report for the selon ce que l'on peut esperer, je pense que si on journalists and they will be available. Thank you. avail une protection officielle de nos droits et si on avail des institutions qui appartenaient a notre MR. CHAIRMAN: Is Mr. George Forest present? Are collectivite et qui desserveraient notre collectivite, il there any other persons wishing to make a me semble que c;;a enleverait beaucoup de tension presentation and use the simultaneous translation? entre les anglophones et les francophones. On a deja Mr. Kovnats. parle un peu, il y a quelque temps, de bilinguiser un service publique. Quand on parle de bilinguiser une MR. KOVNATS: I would like to ask, was Mr. Forest province, les gens pensent toujours ah il va falloir advised that simultaneous translation was available bilinguiser le service publique. Ut les gens sortent to him at this time? toujours avec cette histoire de "they're going to stuff French down our throat" et puis c;;a fait peur. a peur MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm told that the Clerk was in aux gens. Mais quand parle de droits collectifs et touch Mr. Forest this morning. quand on parle de desservir une collectivite avec des services orgarilses pour la collectivite, c;;a n'enleve MR. KOVNATS: Fair enough. Thank you very much, rien a la majorite; c;;a ne les derange plus; et c;;a fait Mr. Chairman. un service parallele plus petit et parfois limits dans la geographie parce qu'il n'y a pas des francophones MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll ask once again. Are there any partout ou parce qu'on ne peut pas necessairement other persons present that wish to make a etablir des services partout. On s'arrange pour qu'il y presentation and use the translation service? ait acces au service. 11 me semble que c;;a desamorcerait completement cette enorme tension M. DONALD SCOTT: Monsieur, mon nom est qui existe actuellement et cette peur qu'on beaucoup Donald Scott. Je suis capable de dire quelque chose d'anglophones qu'on va les devorer quoique je me en franc;;ais aussi et si tu veux la plupart de ma demande comment six pour cent de la population presentation est en anglais mais je peux commencer peut en devorer 94 pour cent. peut-etre avec quelque chose en franc;;ais, si tu veux. Aujourd'hui si c'est possible seulement ce matin, je SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: veux faire c;;a maintenant mais si possible plus tard According to what we can see and what we can aussi peut-etre je prefere c;;a plus tard. a depend de hope for, is if we had a guarantee of protection, an vous autres. official one. I have had institutions that belong to our minority and our group. lt seems to me that it SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: would relieve a great deal of tension between the My name is Donald Scott. I am able to say a few francophones and anglophones. words in French and I would like to make my We have already spoken of bilingualism in the presentation, however, I could say a few words in Public Service, but when you talk about French if you would like it. Today, since it is bilingualism in the Public Service in a province, possible to have the service this morning, it is fine, everybody panics and says everybody is going to I do not mind when you would like to have it, if you have to speak French and they are going to stuff wish it now or later. French down our throats, and it really frightens them. But when you talk about collective rights MR. SCOTT: lt's up to you guys. Most of my and the rights of a group, and the services presentation is in English. lt is virtually all in English,

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but I can make some responses and whatnot in temps au Quebec, c'etait juste apres le War French. I can start off in French if you wish. Measures Act, juste apres la crise d'octobre. Pendant ce temps, j'etais au Lac St-Jean, Saguenay, MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the desire of the Lac St-Jean, dans les villes de Jonquiere, Chicoutimi committee? Mr. Desjardins. et St-....Juste a cote de Jonquiere, il y a la ville d' Arvida. Arvida, incedemment, c'est un nom MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, if I may, the compose par le premier president de Alcan qui services are here and if the gentleman wants to avail s'appelle Arthur Vincent Davis et les premiere lettres himself of the possibility, I think we should hear him. de son nom font le nom d' Arvida. Dans Arvida, il y a une population anglophone, pas MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you Mr. Don Scott, sir? Just tellement gros mais assez gros pour donner une before you start with your presentation, sir, would education anglaise aux enfants de sa population. you introduce yourself and tell us who you represent Cette population, et c'etait avant le cable, les if you are representing a group. services cables de la television, a eu un poste de Radio-Canada anglais, un poste de Radio-Canada MR. SCOTT: No, I'm not representing a group. My anglais pour television aussi et c'etait une experience name is Donald Scott. I am an individual at this point qui n'etait pas la meme dans tout le Canada a ce in time. temps. a c'est en 1970. Le peuple de cette ville, les anglophone en general, au Quebec a eu les droits MR. CHAIRMAN: And you wish to make your qui n'etaient presque pas comparables dans une presentation in French? autre province dans tout le Canada. MR. SCOTT: No, I'm going to make the basic lci apres la partie de la Constitution qui etait presentation in English, but I will start off with a propose maintenant par M. Trudeau, ne donne pas preamble in French, and remarking in particular on necessairement plus de droits a une famille ou une some aspects of the former presentation. famille au Quebec anglaise ou a une famille franc;:aise au Canada. Malheureusement encore, c'est encore a MR. CHAIRMAN: The reason I ask that, sir, is that cause du nombre. lt depends on the number of we have the translation services available for people people. Si la population s'ajuste, on est capable who wish to make their presentation in French. Mr. peut-etre. Mais c'est quoi le principale pour les Forest was the second person who notified the nombres? C'est 100 families? 10 etudiants? C'est Clerk's office of a desire to do so. He doesn't appear quoi les nombres? Et ce probleme, c'est done un to be present, yet your name is down about seven or gros gros probleme ou les populations ici dans les eight further down on the list and there are other petits villages au Manitoba, en Saskatchewan et people who are ahead of you. Just because you want dans les autres provinces aussi, la Nouvelle-Ecosse to do a few lines in French, I don't think that you aussi, dans les villes de Ste-Anne et au Cap Breton, should come ahead of half-a-dozen or a dozen other il y a quelques villes aussi ou l'on a besoin persons unless you want to make the major portion d'education franc;:aise pour les etudiants. of your presentation in French. Si les autres provinces ont eu plus . . . pour Mr. Desjardins. donner le respect a cette proposition autrefois, peut­ etre ...!'education dans la langue franc;:aise donnee MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, let's be fair. I aux etudiants dans toutes les provinces des la don't think that the gentleman knew that this would premiere annee a l'ecole et pas de la septieme be available. You yourself asked if there was annee. C'est peut-etre un peu ...de notre systeme anybody else who wanted to take advantage of the ici que la deuxieme langue nationale se commence service. He indicated that he would and I think that dans la septieme ou huitieme annee a l'ecole et pas we should hear him. Of course, if it's just a way to dans la premiere annee. appear before the others, if he's not going to use it Au Quebec, quand j'etais a St . . . j'etais un at all, then we won't know until it's too late. I don't professeur d'anglais et l'anglais a commence, et c;:a think this will be appreciated, but I think that the c'est dans l'an 1971, le franc;:ais a commence dans la important thing is this gentleman seemed to be an deuxieme annee a l'ecole et c'etait dans un petit anglophone who is making a gesture, and I would village au Lac St-Jean. Lac St-Jean est aussi franc;:ais like to hear him with his presentation in French and comme Arborg est anglais ou que Brandon est then his main document read in English. anglais, la meme chose. Mais dans cette partie, il y a dix ans maintenant, le Quebec donne une instruction MR. CHAIRMAN: All I was trying to do, Mr. en anglais depuis la deuxieme annee a l'ecole. Pour Desjardins, was establish whether Mr. Scott was nous autres, on a pas commence c;:a encore et trying to get ahead of about a dozen other persons particulierement ici au Manitoba ou le Manitoba est by opening in French. une province bilingue sous la Constitution avant que All right, Mr. Scott, would you proceed, please. le droit de 1890 je pense, ou les franc;:ais ont perdu leur droit. Je trouve c;:a bien triste que maintenant au M. SCOTT: Merci, M. le president. Manitoba sous la decision de la Cour supreme, Dans ma presentation juste avant par la Societe l'annnee passe, qu'elle n'ait pas commence de ... franco-manitobaine, on a demande dans les pour donner les langues d'instruction dans les ecoles questions, les droits de !'education franc;:aise partout anglaises en franc;:ais depuis la premiere annee: pas dans le Canada et !'education anglaise au Quebec. toutes les classes, mais une classe chaque jour pour Dans mon experience, comme je suis ne en Ontario, une heure, pas moins d'une heure en franc;:ais. mais j'ai passe de l'ge six a 22 ans en Nouvelle­ 11 n'y a pas une personne, un professionel que j'ai Ecosse et apres c;:a un an au Quebec. Pendant ce entendu qui a dit qu'une deuxieme langue fait c;:a

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plus difficile pour un etudiant dans le cours en the numbers of people. If the population is generaL Nous avons les specialistes de New York, les justified. we can possibly have our rights. but it is specialistes des autres pays en Europe et aussi not a principle of numbers. What is the number? maintenant ici au Canada. lis etaient justement en 10? 20? This problem is a huge problem when the conference ici juste la semaine passee. je pense sur population in small towns in Manitoba. in le sujet de plus d'une langue dans l'ecole. Et presque Saskatchewan. in other provinces also. in Nova toutes ces personnes ont d1t qu'un etudiant qui a le Scotia, and in some of the Maritimes. there are benefice de plus d'une langue avail plus de small villages where schools and French schools possibilites de monter dans sa carriere academique. are available for the students. If other provinces Le franeais n'est pas une chose ...qui arrete le had more intention to give respect to this whole progres d'un etudiant; ea aide le progres d'un proposition in the past. possibly we could have etudiant. .. . d'un autre systeme de penser. Le seen the teaching in French in other provinces franeais. il pense qu'on ne parle pas comme l'anglais from Grade 1 and up instead of from Grade 7 and et ea c'est la raison que des personnes comme moi up. lt may be a joke as far as our system is et les autres qui apprennent une deuxieme langue concerned when the second national language ont de la difficulte a parler dans une autre langue. a starts in the seventh grade or eighth grade of c'est a cause que notre langue ne s'est pas ajustee school and not at the very beginning year, the first et notre "mind" ne s'est pas ajustee de penser dans years. !'autre langue. Et avec ea. le "mind" devient plus When I was in Quebec, and this was in 1971. flexible quand le "mind" est capable de penser en French was started in Grade 12, in the tiny village plus d'une langue. On ne pense pas seulement sur of Lac St. Jean. it's a tiny town like Arborg. Ten une voie, on parle sur les deux voies. Si on a la years ago, Quebec has been giving teaching in possibilite d'apprendre une autre langue, une langue English from Grade 2 on. Especially in Manitoba, slavique ou quelque chose comme ea. c'est encore Manitoba is a bilingual province by our plus a l'avantage d'un etudiant. Constitution and well before the law of 1890 when Sur le sujet des droits de la langue dans la French was removed as a right. I think this is very Constitution. moi je prefere bien sur que la langue sad that this should happen and that last year the soit donnee dans les droits, pas avec les numeros Supreme Court should have established the pas une loi conditionnelle mais une loi qui est intention of giving the teaching from Grade 1 up in vraiment forte dans la Constitution. pas au sujet de French as well as in English, not necessarily in all la legislature pour un avenir comme on a eu en 1890. classes but every day for a certain length of time Avec ea si je peux commencer ma presentation en have the teaching in French. anglais. I have heard the remark made by professionals saying that a second language makes things much SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: more difficult for an individual having two Thank you. Mr. Chairman. In the previous languages. Now, that's absurd. We had a constant presentation by the Societe franco-manitobaine, thrust . . . stating that the school that he was the question of rights to French education in representing had more than one language in Canada was mentioned as well as education in it and that a student that had the benefit of English in Quebec. From my experience. I can - more than one language showed himself state that I was born in Ontario and lived in Nova much more adept, and went further ahead in Scotia and then in Quebec. During my period in his academic as well as his professional Quebec. it was just after The War Measures Act. career. after the October crisis. and during this period I A second language is not something that stops the was in Lac St. Jean. Saguenay district. in the the progress of a student or that damages his own town of Jonquiere. Chicoutimi, and right next to knowledge of his language. In reality it increases it. Jonquiere. there is the town of Arvida. Arvida is They think that someone speaking French does not the name proposed by the first president of Alcan, think like a person speaking English. That's whose name is Arthur Vincent Davis. and the first absurd. That is proposing that one language does letters of his name were established in the name of not equate another. They complement one Arvida and consequently this was why the town another; they increase your understanding and was called this. The population is English but broaden your vocabulary. Actually, the mind can sufficiently large to give English education to the shift from one to the other quite easily and it children of this population. The population lived simply enhances the one you already know. and if there well before cable television was available. you have more than two languages, you are in an There was a CBC radio station established in even better situation. English for the population. as well as a television Now, the establishment of the rights of languages station established in English for the population. within the Constitution. I think. is very important. I The same was not done right across Canada, but think that it should be a right that is given. not this was before 1970. The people of this town. the based on numbers, but as a fundamental right. not anglophones in general in Quebec. received the a conditional right, but a right is strong within the rights that were not anywhere near comparable to Constitution and not subject to the Legislatures as the rights given other minorities in the rest of we have seen in the past in 1890. Canada. Now. if I can pass on to my presentation. My Now. the guarantees in the Constitution formal presentation in English, I will pass to this established by Mr. Trudeau, suggested by Mr. now. Thank you. Trudeau. do not give more rights to the English people in Quebec. but once again it depends on MR. CHAIRMAN: Please carry on.

84 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980

MR. SCOTT: lt is with some degree of pride that I civil law. This class of law is, of course, under federal am able to stand before you today and present my jurisdiction now, and will remain so, because to have opinions on Manitoba's constitutional position. lt is anything different would lead to the eventual with a great deal of disappointment that I and my evolution of different systems of law in each fellow citizens, who are sufficiently concerned about province, thus Balkanizing Canada. the Constitution that we are taken the time to General freedoms, such as freedoms of speech, of prepare and present briefs, find ourselves making an the press, of association, and of religion remain honest public input after the government has outside the provincial sphere. The field of criminal decided to go to court, and in fact has presented a law contains the basic individual freedoms even fifty-one page submission to the court. though it may not define them. Laws of this nature, wrote the Privy Council, and this is the judicial MR. CHAIRMAN: Before you carry on, Mr. Scott, do committee of the provincial council in Russell versus you have additional copies of your presentation? the Queen back, I believe it was in 1912 that laws of this nature are designed for the protection of public MR. SCOTT: No, I am sorry, I don't have the order, safety and morals, which subject those who services of a photocopier and it is all handwritten. I contravene them to criminal procedure and will give it to you or give it to the Clerk to photocopy punishments belonging to the subject of public upon completion. I think you will find it interesting wrongs rather than civil rights. This was subsequently even if you have to follow through without having a upheld in Ouimet versus Basin, where a province written text on it. attempted to prohibit theatrical performances on a lt is obvious that a Conservative Government has Sunday. The first reference to the case of Russell no real intention of listening to our briefs or in versus the Queen, of course, was dealing with alternating in any way their dogged opposition to the prohibition. entrenchment of a Charter of Human Rights and a Thus, if some rights and freedoms are entrenched Constitution. in our Constitution, this does not preclude other non­ In preparation for these discussions I have gone specified freedoms from being maintained under the back into our earlier beginnings, and the evolutionary remaining Criminal Code. That is to say, we would process has brought us to this point in time in the have the best of both worlds; some rights or history of our Constitution. I have learned that as freedoms firmly tied to the Constitution, while other early as 1763, and these are all preambles to our existing and future rights still protected through our Constitution, you cannot forget things from the times federal criminal law. I see no contradiction in this of the Conquest or even prior to that when we are dual role over our human rights and our fundamental dealing with the Constitution. You can't just start at freedoms. it's not a contradiction, it's a the talks as they started back less than a year ago complimentary action. now, the current session of talks, you have got to go To promote exactly the opposite trend in the future back through the whole history, I think, to get a of this infant country - and we really are when you decent perception of where we stand in our look upon the history of Canada with its mere 113 Constitution and where we are moving to today. years compared to other nations, in particular in As early as 1763, under The Treaty of Paris, Europe, that have been in existence for hundreds of religious rights were granted to Roman Catholics to years, and our own mother country of England - practice their religion without the fear of prosecution. that the Fathers of Confederation built Section 94 The Quebec Act of 1774 reconfirmed this, along with into The BNA Act, which enables provinces to give the French Civil Code, and that is pertaining to up specified areas of jurisdiction under property and property and civil rights. Public law, however, civil rights to the federal government in order to remained under the English system and this included build a greater degree of unity in law across the criminal law. This distinction between private and country. Was this done by a group of men building a public law has remained throughout the past 206 country based completely on the compact theory, or years with the evolution of our country through the was it the rational act of men who saw our country first Canada Act of 1791, The Act of Union in 1840, to the south being torn apart by civil wars at the and The BNA Acts of 1867 and subsequent. same time that they were trying to piece together a There has always been a division between private new country to be known as Canada? and public law. The private law is derived from its The USA has a very decentralized Constitution, or concepts of civil rights and property. lt deals with the had a very decentralized Constitution in their original property and its uses, to successions, to contracts, Constitution, with most rights vested with the towards status of persons, and commercial matters. individual states. Failure to distinguish between civil Public law, on the other hand, in 1774 and rights and civil liberties, or human rights, may be subsequently, has dealt with the rights as are said to be a major cause of the American Civil War. consistent with our allegiance to His Majesty or Her In Canada, we can be thankful that the jurisdiction of Majesty, and subjection to the Crown and public law, which contains criminal law, was never Parliament. lt is under this jurisdiction that civil delegated thus to the provinces. liberties and hence, human rights, are found, and as The provincial link is that the administration of law such are regulated by criminal law. is mostly provincial, and for the purpose of Thus, I suggest to you that the inclusion of a safeguarding freedoms, administration is important Charter of Human Rights in the Constitution will not as a definition of the law. Thus, while the basis of the infringe upon a provincial jurisdiction under Section laws is under federal jurisdiction, the co-operation of 92( 13) of The BNA Act, dealing with property and the provinces is essential for justice to be carried out civil rights, because they fall under public law, which to the fullest extent. I think this was very clearly includes criminal law and not under private law or brought forward yesterday, although just the first

85 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980

part of it brought forward, in a presentation by, was Population; Section 93, The Right to Separate it Mr. Ross from the Communist Party, and with Schools; and Section 99, The Right to an questions by the Honourable Attorney-General, Mr. Independent Jud iciary. Every one of these rules Mercier. quoting the very eloquent human rights that protects a fundamental freedom, and every one is a are entrenched in the Constitution of the USSR. They limitation and a sovereignty of either the Dominion might be entrenched there, but there is no Parliament or the provincial Legislatures. or both. administrative system for them to be carried out. and Thus, the grounds for claiming the downfall of our therefore they are useless. and this is a problem that parliamentary system of government by entrenching we have with any form of law. is you can pass as human rights is pre-confederation rhetoric. many laws as you wish. but if the law does not at the Premier Lyon claims that we, in Canada. have had same time have the mechanism behind it where the a pretty good record in recognition of human rights. citizen can turn to and come back to challenge the When one looks about other countries records, Legislature. then the law is not worth the paper it is perhaps he's correct, but when we take a closer look printed on; as is the case in the USSR and as was at our own record, we have some pretty horrendous I the case in the southern United States as well, that skeletons. During the First World War, paranoia bastion of freedom that we are well acquainted with seemed to set in with regard to freedom of speech. it was with profound disappointment that I do not An Alberta judge remarked in a decision in 1916, see my provincial government pursuing this co­ that there have been already more prosecutions for operative role, and in fact, presurring the federal seditious words in Alberta in the past two years than government to strengthen a Charter of Civil Rights, in all the history of England for over 100 years, and by striking what has been referred to as the England has had numerous and critical wars in that "Sterling Lyon phrase" of Section 1. wherein our period of time. guarantees to rights and freedoms are subject only After the Russian Revolution a new wave of to such reasonable limits as are generally accepted paranoia set in with words, some of which our in a free and democratic society with a parliamentary Premier still likes to use today, Bolshevik, system of government. That one clause can possibly Communist, Red, Socialist, pacifist, anarchist and throw out the whole rest of the Charter of Human even foreigner were used to detain or deport Rights. and that is the thing that I would like to see persons. During the 1919 Strike and the one big this province, in respect of the people of Manitoba, union movement here in Winnipeg, the Honourable fighting against. and to try and remove that clause, Mr. J.S. Woodsworth was arrested and jailed for and have it either replaced totally or eliminated quoting the prophet, Isaiah, in public. Canada passed totally from the charter. the notorious Section 98 to the Criminal Code, To this phrase. I can only say that where making it a crime to belong to any counter status extraordinary powers exist, some government in the quo political organization, party or a union. Strikes future will try to use them. it's happened time and were virtually illegal. lt took a mere 10 days to push - time again in other countries, and there's no reason through Parliament and made it unlawful to belong to exempt Canada and our future from that either. to any association which the government believed Mr. Lyon and several of his Progressive existed to bring about governmental, industrial or Conservative counterparts across the country, with economic changes within Canada by force or the notable exceptions of Premiers Davis and violence. or which teaches or defends such use. Hatfield, have attempted to use the issue of Membership was punishable by 20 years in prison. parliamentary sovereignty as an argument against The penalty for a simpler definition of sedition was the entrenchment of a Charter of Human Rights in increased from 2 to 20 years and that was here, the written Constitution. We, in Canada, fortunately actually in Winnipeg, where the actions took. are not in Great Britain. In Britain. no bill is beyond Just as intolerable were the changes to The Parliament. Even the Magna Carta can be pushed Immigration Act, which made it disgustingly simple to aside by a despotic ruler in time of depression, war deport people if thought undesirable under The or whatever. by simply having his majority repeal or Immigration Act. All through this time. it must be amend that sacred charter. History has proven to us noted, England was having an equally tough time but it has not happened, hopefully the future will prove to passed no such infringements on civil liberties and us that it will never happen in England, but it does freedom of speech. People were deported from not mean that some despotic ruler as a Hitler couldn' Canada under the changes to The Immigration Act t come along and change that. I don't have that faith without a fair trial. Often they are uprooted, shipped in the human life or in our future, that we will never by rail to Halifax, where a Board of Inquiry of three have that kind of a despotic ruler coming to our fore. officers nominated by the Minister of Immigration - Canada's Parliament is not so sovereign. We are a no legal requirements for their background, no federal state where there are jurisdictions in which requirements virtually at all or at all for these the federal government cannot interfere, and which appointments were needed. The hearings were in therefore eliminate its total sovereignty. Within its private. The defendant needn't even be present to be spheres of jurisdiction assigned to them under The tried and the counsel, his counsel, if a destitute BNA Act, Parliament and the Legislatures are person had a chance of getting one, especially when generally supreme. Exceptions to this are the areas he was shipped away from Winnipeg, or Vancouver, which are already entrenched within our written or wherever to Halifax to sit there and await trial, Constitution. and these include Section 133. The Use could not use any of the accepted rules of evidence of the English and French Language; Section 20, The that are in our traditional courts because these were Right to an Annual Session of Parliament; Section all exempted. This unqualified board just needed to 50, The Right to a New Parliament Every Five Years; declare any evidence as being trustworthy. Section 51, The Right to Representation of a Naturalized citizens were not exempt from this wild

86 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980 law either, as they could have their citizenship innocent people, I'm sure I would have acted revoked if the Governor-in-Council so decided. No differently and it would have been different for me. reason need be given, just a boot on to some Nonetheless, I am saddened that I didn't protest in stinking ship that was waiting to transport D.Ps from some way at that time. Distance is such an insulator Canada, people that Canada listed as D.Ps or and at the time I guess I was also in the Faculty of declared D.Ps. Business Administration at St. Francois Xavier In 193 1-32, 239 citizenship certificates were University and that faculty is not known, or was not revoked. Deportations in 1931-32 of landed known and still isn't known to be terribly interested immigrants totalled 7,034. I understand that many of in such a matter as civil liberties or human rights. these people were deported just because they were I have both great respect for mankind's capacity to unemployed during the Depression and their local improve himself and an equally great fear of man municipalities didn't want them on their bread lines when he is on some mindless rampage. I have or. perhaps, on the employment lines as well. Many watched the evolution of medicare and legal aid in apparently went to even worse fates under the rising Canada and have walked through the memorial to fascism and dictatorships of continental Europe. In the hundreds of thousands of human beings who Canada, work camps were also set up where suffered and were murdered in Dachau. I have unemployed men were herded to keep them off the studied, walked and talked with Chileans, who on streets and off the job lines. My father worked on their way to work in the mornings, during and some of these camps and as a teacher with the subsequent to the military coup by the junta in Chile, Frontier College and has a little he wishes to tell his saw bodies tossed alongside the river after an grandchildren of the conditions they lived under. evening or after evenings, I should say, of Depressions are also rampant times apparently for government massacres. charges of sedition. In Montreal, 10 persons were Given these precedents, I think it is quite easy to charged in a short period of time, 1930 to 1933, no understand that for us, as citizens of Canada, we can war, just a Depression. only entrust our human rights to our Constitution. The disgraceful treatment of Japanese Canadians The Charter as built into the Constitution must during the Second War, and the attempt to deport certainly be a great deal stronger than the one we 10,000 immediately after the war under cooked-up presently have, and should go with the direction to charges of having them signing things under the the judiciary as the Honourable Gordon Fairweather, pressure of war, that they wanted to go back to Chairman of the Canadian Human Rights Japan. These are indications of the depth to which Commission has suggested. The self-defeating clause we are capable of sinking. The complacency of our in Section 1 must be amended so that the moral majority during all of this time makes all those guarantees to our rights and freedoms are the last Canadians old enough to have understood what was vistages of our rights to go and not among tfle first happening at the time as guilty as our government of in a time of crisis. Free and democratic societies the day. have too many atrocities behind them for me to put A few years ago, CBC's "As it Happens" played a my faith in. Our own parliamentary system of series of wartime radio broadcasts depicting government has set a precedent of few freedoms in Canada's propaganda, and not only the propaganda, a time of government overkill or imagined overkill. lt but the racism during the war against its own non­ may be likened to a poison, I suggest to you. lt is not waspish citizens of which I, if anybody, am one as the minute necessarily, long-term dosages that will you can tell by name. The hard working, destitute necessarily kill you, but rather the higher dosage or and discriminated against Japanese, citizens yet, the slightly above dosage when your natural were made' out to be dirty Japs who were going to defences are down, that is the lethal part. take over your herring seiners in British Columbia, Because of past abuses of the The War Measures your salmon boat and to use you and turn you into a Act, I propose that the word "apprehended" in the deck hand. Constitution be replaced with "imminent" or such As recently, and we mustn't forget that other phrase in Section 4(2) as apprehended means abrogations towards human rights are much more simply imagined. I do not like the idea of any future recent than the things that I've stated here back in or present Prime Minister imagining that 20 people the first half of our century, as recently as 1970 we are going to bring a nation to its heels. In Sections 8 had the arrest of some 500 persons in Montreal, end and 9, the clause accepts on grounds in accordance result of the The War Measures Act and Pierre with procedures established by law would possibly Trudeau's interpretation of apprehended insurrection. allow these sections to be sidestepped by the I say it wasn't apprehended, it was imagined. lt was imagined in his mind; it was imagined in the former Legislature, such as was proposed here in Manitoba Premier Bourassa's mind. I'm proud of the NDP by The Manitoba Energy Authority Act, which would members who stood and voted against the have permitted an inspector to enter premises introduction of The War Measures Act and I'm in without a warrant and demand to see and to seize sympathy with my former Premier from Nova Scotia, any records or property that, in his opinion, were the Honourable Robert Stanfield, who regrets ever relevant. There's no backing of law; there is no having accepted the government's misguided advice. warrant of law. He is able to walk in, and if he thinks I remember the October crisis well and I can say so, he can take away whatever he wishes. it's sort of that at the time I wasn't shocked at its going back to the same principles that they used in implementation, as I imagine many of you were not the changes to The Immigration Act in 1919. I think as well. Like most Canadians I didn't know any that is totally unacceptable and I think that our better. Had I lived in Montreal and seen the army, Legislature should be prohibited from being able to the fear and the hatred for what was being done to do that.

87 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980

Section 11(c) should have the right to trial included equalization. Our own source revenues now and there should be limitations on secret trials, such represent only 59 percent of the increase in as the infamous Peter Treu case in Montreal. Native revenues, whereas a historic level of our own source peoples' rights should be recognized in the revenues was between 58 and 63-1/2 percent, and Constitution and defined fairly specifically so that that includes periods prior to the new Fiscal land claims and other entitlements are ensured. Arrangements Act of 1978, which gave the province Similarly, traditionally disadvantaged groups such as another 9.143 points of personal income tax points. women and the disabled deserve mention. With that additional income we should be up around Previously, I've already covered my ideas towards 65 or plus 65 percent, not below 60 percent as we the entrenchment of the rights to both languages in are currently. education, so I won't bother going into that again In 1976-77, as a comparison, the actual increase in here. equalization over the previous year was only 17-1/2 One area which has been left out of the new percent, less than one-half the current level which Constitution proposals is freedom of information. I indicates that on a national average, Manitoba is would like very much to see this principle embedded doing very very poorly economically. in the Constitution as it is in Sweden, where they The 1976-77 over 1975-76 increase, by the way, have had very strong freedom of information was approximately the same percentage increase as legislation since 1776, two hundred and six years we have today of 11.6 percent, and yet we have and they have managed to get along quite well with today over twice the amount of equalization coming it. Since 1949, it's been embedded into their through on a percentage basis. Constitution, the freedom of The Press Act of 1949. In conclusion, I must reiterate my belief that we When it was passed, it was put into their Constitution need a Charter of Human Rights entrenched in our and their Constitution states, this Act that is in the Constitution. I have not heard any province, and in Constitution states, "to further free interchange of particular Manitoba, oppose the inclusion of the opinion and general enlightenment every Swedish principle of equalization in the Constitution so that citizen shall have free access to official documents". we may continue to gain the benefits under such a There are exceptions that are listed in that, such system. lt is sad not to see the same enthusiasm for things as security, state and what not, and are individual rights as it is for provincial rights. Finally, defined, but they define things specifically enough so and this is a partisan comment I will be taking I'm that the government cannot then call and try and put sure, but I personally do not want to have any of my the whole platitude of things before it has been future rights entrusted with a Manitoba Premier, defended on both sections. Sterling Lyon, who identifies himself as being on the Economic rights are also not mentioned, not for same side of General Pinochet in a Fascist Chilean individuals at least, only for provinces. Constitution junta. Thank you very much. negotiations are extremely strained at this point in - time because of the intransigents of our present MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scott, will you permit Prime Minister Trudeau and also Premiers Bennett, questions? Lougheed, Lyon, Peckford and Levesque. I don't think that there will be that much change if Ryan was MR. SCOTT: Certainly. there either, probably. One factor that gives us a glimmer of hope, perhaps, in the not too distant MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mercier. future, is that the Prime Minister and two or three of the more inflexible Premiers will not be at the MR. MERCIER: Mr. Scott, on the last subject you bargaining table as they will have either retired or raised on the question of equalization, are you have been defeated by the people. I do not expect aware, sir, that at the First Ministers' Conference in that we will ever have the 11 political chieftains of September, a majority of the provinces endorsed a this country in unanimity, but I do believe that an draft which Ministers had developed during the honest negotiator package is possible. lt is not the summer on equalization and was known as the subject matter that is at fault, but rather the players. Manitoba-Saskatchewan draft, which was the I just ask for your considerations here if two of the strongest statement relating to equalization in terms Premiers that are at the table right now were not of binding the federal government and the provinces there and were replaced, and I'm speaking to that concept? specifically of Premiers Bennett, if he was replaced by David Barrett and if Premier Lyon was replaced MR. SCOTT: Yes, I am. by Howard Pawley, the difference and the difference in attitudes that you would have throughout the MR. MERCIER: And that, in fact, the provision that whole thing. (Interjection)- Wait a while, give him has been introduced in the federal constitutional a chance. Give electoral people a chance, I should proposal is the weakest possible commitment to say. equalization. Are you aware of that? it is very peculiar that Manitoba should be heading the charge against the federal state at a time when MR. SCOTT: I don't like the wording of many things we are becoming a ward of the federal state with in our constitutional proposal as I have already said equalization payments. The equalization payments at to you in several aspects. Even if it is weak, at least the present time are increasing at a faster rate than it is there. What I wished I could have seen from the our own source revenues. For example; of the total provinces, Mr. Mercier, is the same keenness increase in forecasted revenues for the 1980-81 towards entrenching the individual's rights, and fiscal year, which is 193 million or 11.4 percent economic rights in particular perhaps or including increase, 475,250,000 or 39 percent comes from economic rights as you have for the provinces.

88 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980

MR. MERCIER: I wonder, sir, if you would answer November to the federal side. I'm also asking for a the question. Are you aware, sir, that the strongest possibility to go and address the Parliament of statement on equalization was done between Canada, the joint committee on the same matters, Manitoba and Saskatchewan, known as the and I do not like the restrictions here as well. Manitoba-Saskatchewan draft, endorsed by a majority of the provinces, and that the . . . MR. MERCIER: Sir, in your comments you refer to the situation in England, and you hoped that a MR. SCOTT: Has that been published, sir? Has it despotic ruler would not come into power in been published and given out because I haven't had England, and would change the terms of the Magna a copy. I wish I did have a copy. Carta.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. Mr. MR. SCOTT: Yes. Schroeder, on a point of order. MR. MERCIER: Do you really think, sir, that if a MR. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Yes, Mr. despotic ruler came into power in that or any other Chairman, on a point of order. it would seem that if country, that an entrenched Bill of Rights is going to that document has been made public, it would be do anything to stop his actions? legitimate to ask about it, but if is another one of the documents that the people who are appearing before MR. SCOTT: An entrenched Bill of Rights as we this committee have not had the opportunity to have in Canada with our federal system, sir, and I examine, then I would suggest that the question is think you should be fairly aware of this, is that no far out of order. matter what the changes to the Constitution or the redrafting of an amending procedure is going to be, MR. MERCIER: The question is not out of order, one is going to have to have provincial acceptance, Mr. Chairman, if he's not aware of it, fine, he can say and the possibility or the likelihood of having a he's not aware of it, yes or no. despotic ruler come into Canada is, I would hope, remote. The possibility of him ramming through MR. SCOTT: Okay, I was aware that the provinces changes to a Constitution would have to go over, or were . you'd have to also have six or seven or 50 percent, whatever the formula comes off with, of despotic MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Scott, do you wish to answer premiers. I think the likelihood of that coming in Mr. Mercier's question? hand is exceptionally remote, and I pray to God that it won't happen to our country. MR. SCOTT: I will, sure. I was aware that the But then at the same point in time, I must say I provinces have been trying to push for a stronger don't think there's any historians here that are old basis of equalization and have it entrenched in the enough, but not very many people would have Constitution. I'm not aware of the wording of that, for the very reason that it hasn't been put forward to expected Hitler to come to power in Germany either, us. and he came. So many things are possible, but because of our federal system Hitler would not have MR. MERCIER: Mr. Scott, you, at the beginning of the same possibilities if he became the Prime your presentation, appeared to complain of the Minister of Canada, because to make the changes in opportunity to be heard with respect to the the Constitution, that I am proposing be entrenched Constitution. What is your view of the deadlines in in the Constitution, he would have to have the the procedures established by the federal acceptance of the majority of the Premiers in this government with respect to their proposal? country. Quebec would have a veto, Ontario would have a veto, you'd have to have 50 percent of two MR. SCOTT: Equal as to my opposition to holding provinces representing 50 percent of the Maritimes, hearings here after you've already gone through or three, I think, and two provinces representing 50 court, I think they're ridiculous. percent of the population of the west, that combination, that is just additional security, and MR. MERCIER: What is your view of the federal that's why I believe in a federal state, sir. proposal? MR. MERCIER: I take it, sir, from your presentation, MR. SCOTT: I think it's ridiculous for them to have you're favour of an entrenched Charter of Rights, the limitations that they have on it now. The Prime which would give to the judges of the Supreme Court Minister, when he introduced it, he asked that all the in Canada the final determination of what phrases, members of the House and whatnot would be able to like freedom of religion, meant. address it. I did not like the action of closure, although there have been examples or comparisons MR. SCOTT: The Chairman of the Human Rights used to the closure in the pipelane debate, and until Commission, the former distinguished Conservative they go through the next three steps of closure, I member of the House of Commons, The Hon. wouldn't want to compare one with the other. I'm Gordon Fairweather, has suggested that when a hoping that when the committee reports back to the charter does go ahead, that it go ahead with Legislature or to the Parliament of Canada, that he direction to the judiciary. There could even possibly would not have closure, and he would have a chance be the establishment of a joint committee to guide it for every member of parliament to address it. through like there are in some countries. I believe the At the same point in time, I do not like the idea US has a constitutional level of court, so that the that the public input has to be in by the 22nd of people who are deciding upon these things are

89 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980 experts in the field. I like that very much. I would like judges. I'd like to have some provincial participation to have, not just the hands of the judiciary, just to in that, a regional participation. In that you would have them given carte blanche a new Constitution, have less of a chance of the same political party but have them given a Constitution with direction. always, and if they're in power forever and ever in I"m not exactly sure just how that whole system Ottawa, of having the rights to be able to appoint the functions but this certainly can be given, and an Supreme Justices. intent given with the Constitution as it is presented I would like to see, as was initially intended in the to the justices. Constitution, that the Senate be something representative of the regions. Quebec, in my MR. MERCIER: Could you clarify this direction? You readings of George Stanley, who is another scholar, know, cases are decided and ... and buys very much your concept of compact theory I might add, as opposed to Frank R. Scott, who MR. SCOTT: I wish I was Gordon Fairweather, I'm not. doesn't deny the compact theory, but he gives more towards the idea of creating a strong unitary state. MR. PARASIUK: Tell him to get in touch with But Quebec, from what I've understood and read, Gordon Fairweather. and I have gone back and read the debate of the 1865 with the proposed resolutions, the Quebec MR. SCOTT: Yes. Well, that's a possiblity. He made Resolutions of 1865, and have read through what his presentation yesterday, or two days ago, and the eventually went and ended up going to England, transcripts of that are available. I would suggest that come home as our BNA Act, and in that the people for the enlightenment of the whole committee, that of Quebec, and the representatives from Quebec, at the committee do that. that point in time, believed that their guarantees, and they gave up guarantees when they went into MR. MERCIER: Well, the proposal, sir, in the Confederation, and the previous Canada, which was entrenched charter is that the judges of the Supreme Upper and Lower Canada or Canada East and Court in Canada would make the final decisions on Canada West, for any bill to pass, and to be the interpretation of those phrases, just as judges in applicable to the both sides, you had to have a - the United States now make final decisions on what majority of the two sides of the House. If a bill just such terms as freedom of religion make, and the only passed in Upper Canada's side, it did not apply to way you can change those decisions is by amending Lower Canada, and that was a guarantee and they the Constitution, which would be a difficult process. did not have rep by pop at that time. After George Brown, and this is one of the main reasons for MR. SCOTT: You also have the Appellant Section, Confederation if you go back and look at it, one of sir, and that is why you have appeals going one way the principle pushes behind Confederation by and another way in a judicial system, so that you Ontario, was that you would get representation by don't just get one judge doesn't - you have to have a majority of nine judges on the Supreme Court population. Initially, Ontario did not want it, or what when it comes to it. So I'm not worried about one is today Ontario did not want it, because Quebec judge having a hand at writing our Constitution. had a higher population than Ontario did, and they There are generally dissenting judges. Very few wanted representation, equal representation, from decisions, I don't know of any decisions regarding two sides. That's where you had this duality, you had human rights that have gone through in Canada that two Attorney-Generals, Attorney-General East and there have not been dissenting judges, and their Attorney-General West, MacDonald and Cartier. opinions are brought up in subsequent cases. The Pretty well all your portfolios were dual portfolios. decision of a Supreme Court, a precedent is not cast When Quebec came into Confederation . . . in stone, as a Constitution, and Mr. Lyon keeps referring, and gentlemen along here keep referring to MR. MERCIER: Yes, just out of consideration for a Constitution entrenched in stone. Well, it's not the other delegations, you might just answer their entrenched in stone, because you will have some questions. sort of a procedure in the future, and I don't know what it is at the present time, but there will be some MR. SCOTT: Well, you're asking, you're saying, am process to be able to change a Constitution. So, if I satisfied with this? I'm saying I'm not satisfied with something is changeable through a process this, and I'm expanding upon that and saying other described in a Constitution, then certainly it's not areas are not satisfied with it as well. I'm saying that cast in stone. I don't think Quebec would have ever come into I don't expect we are going to have amendments Confederation in the first instance, if it would have to our Constitution every other day, but if you look at thought that the rights that it had would not have any other place, look at the United States, the been guaranteed by the Senate, which it understood number of amendments that they have taken to their would have. They were somewhat misguided at the Constitution now. There's been a great number. lt time, thinking that the Maritimes were always going takes time. The whole evolutionary process. God, to join them and gang up on Ontario, I think. But, at look how long it's taken us to get to where we are the same point in time it's very, very dubious if we today in Canada's Constitution, at least towards the would ever even have had Canada as we know it changes of it. I don't think that this document goes today, if the Senate had not been in there, but the near far enough. I would like to have something in Senate unfortunately has never evolved into the here towards a better representation, as was initially mechanism that we should have had, and I would intended in The BNA Act in the appointment of like to see that corrected in this.

90 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980

MR. MERCIER: Sir, one last question. The Winnipeg they might be proposing today in Canada, because Free Press today has a short article in it in which it this governmental change, economic change, and reports on a US Supreme Court decision yesterday, whatnot, I don't want to see that. Wasn't it Voltaire which outlawed the posting of the Ten who said that anyone should be able to say under Commandments on classrooms walls in public freedom of speech what they wish to say and he will schools, because in their opinion that violated the US defend to his life the right of that individual to say Constitution's guarantee of religious freedom. lt was that, even though he may strongly disagree with it? a 5-4 decision, and points out how only five people That is the principle I would like to see entrenched out of nine can make a significant decision, which for us to hold on to. affects American society. You are then in favour, sir, of having five judges appointed for life, not MR. SCHROEDER: You have indicated that there accountable to the people, deciding an issue like that are a number of areas in which both the federal rather than the people through their elected government and provincial government have violated representatives. human rights in the past century and up to 1970. You referred to the treatment of the Japanese and a MR. SCOTT: First off, they're appointed, I believe, number of specific instances, and, of course, the to age 75. Are not all the Supreme Court Justices? argument of those who are against entrenchment of They're not appointed for life. rights is that Parliament will protect people's rights Secondly, there is a provision that they can be and if Parliament does not protect people's rights, repealed or they can be taken back, I believe, in then what will happen is that the people will throw their Constitution. The likelihood of it is very, very these people out, the elected people who have minuscule, I might add, and furthermore, I do not somehow derogated from your rights will then be like necessarily the idea of saying what can be defeated at the polls and people who are more in posted and what can't be posted. To me, if one can tune with people's rights will replace them. Can you come back on freedom of speech at the same time tell me of any single instance where the government, and say that you should be able to post something in which has perpetrated the wrongs you refer to, was a school room under freedom of speech, the same subsequently defeated as a result of perpetrating as you can say it under freedom of religion, and then these wrongs. wait until the Supreme Court of the United States has that action. I do not like the idea of always MR. SCOTT: In the late Thirties, late Twenties, you referring whatever we're going to be doing in our had a Liberal government, in the early Thirties you future to what the U.S. does in theirs. We're not the had a Conservative government, I believe. Who was same, we don't think the same, we're vastly different the Prime Minister at the time of the changes . . . countries. We don't live upon a system where you're no, it wasn't. 1t would be Liberal government all the suing your neighbour every other day and I don't way through, in 1919, they stayed through right until want to see that ever evolve in Canada and I think the Thirties, and after that time I might add that I we'll be protected through our courts of that. think it was finally repealed in 1936, which would have been under a Conservative government of R.B. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there other questions for Mr. Bennett, that they tried three or four times Scott? Mr. Schroeder. unsuccessfully to repeal Section 98 of the Criminal Code and each time it was passed by the House of MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday we heard a brief in which it was indicated Commons to throw it out, and it was reinstated or that entrenchment of a Bill of Rights not only re-enshrined by the Senate. Finally, I think it was in somewhat inhibited the progress of society or left 1936, they finally got rid of the ruddy thing, but it wing political parties but in fact that it would took them from 1919 or from January 3rd, 1920 until practically make them illegal. You have indicated this some time in 1936 to get rid of it. morning that Sweden has a Bill of Rights and I would You also had, as far as the idea of a government ask you to comment on the position that an that will be thrown out by the people, our entrenched Bill of Rights would in some way prohibit government is elected for four or five years. In four or inhibit social justice. or five years you can do one heck of a lot of damage and the people don't have the right to call that MR. SCOTT: I don't see how it could possibly government to question until the end of its period of inhibit social justice. There are no examples that I office. I don't like the idea of giving a person five know of where you have human rights and civil years. Look what Chile did in five years, for God liberties written in where you would have a sakes. lt didn't have to have 15 years, it did it all in Parliament that would have the authority to take the first couple of months, not all of it, but a good those away. I don't want to have that. it's put in a amount of it. That sort of thing, if you go by a Constitution, the opportunites for taking those rights mandate of relying on the people to throw this are just about gone and to say that it would impinge government out, you don't have a heck of a lot of upon any groups, right, left, or whatever, I fully mandate. The government could even do away with respect the position - I don't fully respect the elections if they are not somehow entrenched in the position, I fully respect the right of the West-Fed, or Constitution, so I don't think that the people really whatever they are called, Organization that came and have any - I won't say faith, I think we do have a give their briefs yesterday. I see no wrongs with that great faith in the legislative system, I certainly do, whatsoever. If Section 98 of the Criminal Code was but I'm not going to enshrine my future to a still in, there could well be prosecutions against them Legislature or to aspects that are subject purely to for coming in and saying some of the things that the Legislature and the Womens Legislature.

91 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Schroeder, are you through must admit, aware that they were specifically against with your questioning? equalization.

MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions to Mr. Scott? Seeing none, thank you very kindly, sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Parasiuk then. MR. SCOTT: Merci beaucoup, monsieur. MR. PARASIUK: I want to hone in on one point and that's the question of equalization, which I think is a MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a problem. This is a very important part of the constitutional discussions. question to the members of the committee. I have You indicated the extent to which Manitoba, because seen Mr. Forest's brief. lt's about 15 pages in length. of the poor performance of its economy, is having to I'm told that the translation people are here until rely more and more on equalization, which is 5:00, or they are contracted until 5:00. Should we developed through a federal process, to in fact hear Mr. Forest and split his presentation into two derive enough revenues to continue with at lease a halves over the lunch hour or should we take medium level if not certainly a restrained level of somebody who feels that they can make their services. You provided the documentation in that presentation in 20 minutes or less? respect. Mr. Desjardins. Mr. Mercier today has said that in the secret discussions that took place between federal and MR. DESJARDINS: I think, if it is a suggestion, I - provincial officials that Manitoba and Saskatchewan would go along with him. If somebody can indicate have proposed a very strong position with respect to that they have a shorter brief, it might be better that equalization. None of us have seen those documents we could hear them now. yet, but I in fact know those are the documents you gave us from the transcripts. The point is, have you MR. CHAIRMAN: First, maybe we can ask Mr. ever heard Manitoba, in the last one-and-a-half Forest if he minds having his presentation split into months, put forward any position with respect to two halves. improving any of the constitutional proposals that are MR. FOREST: (French spoken but not transcribed) before Parliament, because if you can recall Premier Blakeney went to a meeting of the Premiers hosted SIMULTANEOUS TRANSLATION: by Sterling Lyon, and he wanted to put forward a Mr. Chairman, if you will allow me I would prefer to number of proposals to the federal government that have my presentation delayed to this afternoon. would improved the constitutional package. The other Premiers, or a majority of those Premiers, MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Kovnats. decided not to proceed with any type of improvements but rather that three provinces would MR. KOVNATS: Mr. Chairman, I think that we had immediately take the matter before the courts, made arrangements that the presentation be made in therefore freezing any type of discussions with the morning when the translators -(lnterjection)­ respect to constitutional reform. Have you heard Mr. Chairman, I have been waiting in anticipation for publicly what the Attorney-General has just told us the presentation of Mr. Forest and am I to be denied today, namely that Manitoba would like to improve that presentation at this time? the constitutional package by improving the whole MR. CHAIRMAN: No, Mr. Forest has asked if he aspect of equalization, which is so vital to Manitoba's could be first on this afternoon so his presentation long term interests? isn't split in two halves. Mr. Mercier, do you have a suggestion? MR. SCOTT: The reason I came here is because • I'm not terribly satisfied with what has been put MR. MERCIER: I was going to suggest, Mr. forward in the Constitution and I'm even less Chairman, that we move on to the Catholic Women's satisfied that the Province of Manitoba is not taking League, who are next on the list, and I understand a more positive stance in trying to improve the they have a short brief. Constitution, improve the proposals, rather than continually detracting from them and wanting to toss MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there a representative from the the things out. That's the reason I came. Catholic Women's League present?

MR. PARASIUK: Are you also aware that there is MRS. EVELYN WYRZYKOWSKI: Yes, Mr. not unanimity with respect to the whole question of Chairman. equalization; that Premier Bennett is very much against the types of equalization that we've had in MR. CHAIRMAN: And do you have a short the past; that Peckford himself is dubious about presentation? equalization; and that these two Premiers are amongst the strongest allies of Premier Lyon in his MRS. WYRZYKOWSKI: Ours is not short, but we attempt to stymie this whole process of constitutional feel that we also could have stood up and begun reform in the courts. something in a few words of French and been able to present ours at the time that Mr. Scott did and we MR. SCOTT: I am aware that these two Premiers did not do that. We did not become forceful, we sat are backing Mr. Lyon up in his attack against the back, and we really would not like to be interrupted, entrenchment of the Constitution of Human Rights nor do we think it's fair that someone else is going and other aspects of the Constitution but I'm not, I to present another brief and we have been on the list

92 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980 for a long time and we've been very patient with national levels, is thus able to present the collective that. views of over 116,000 Canadian women, gathered within this framework, at the same time being MR. CHAIRMAN: We also have the Women's cognizant of the regional differences of its members. Institute which is represented by two ladies that are We, in Manitoba, represent approximately 3,400 from out of town who have asked me if they can be members. heard today because of travelling some distance to Since it is only the national organization of English­ the city. speaking Catholic women in Canada, the Catholic Women's League is aware not only of its right but its MRS. WYRZVKOWSKI: I also have travelled some deep responsibility to address you with its concerns distance from the city, but I'm just pointing that out. at this time when Canada is proposing to make its I realize that is a priority and we have been Constitution Canadian. respecting the priorities and the ruling of the committee. MRS. WYRZYKOWSKI: Our preamble then: "I am a Canadian, a free Canadian, free to speak without MR. CHAIRMAN: All right, Mr. Forest prefers to not fear, free to worship God in my own way, free to be interrupted, the Catholic Women's League prefers stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I not to be interrupted. We have two alternatives; we believe wrong, free to choose those who shall govern can either break for lunch now and have an extra my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to long lunch hour or we can ask if there is someone uphold for myself and all mankind." next in line after the Catholic Women's League who These sentiments were expressed by the Right feels they can do their presentation in 20 minutes or Honourable John G. Diefenbaker, Prime Minister of less. Canada in 1960. All right then, is Dennis Cyr here? Twenty years later, in 1980, the Prime Minister of Canada, the Honourable Pierre Elliott Trudeau said MRS. WYRZYKOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, we'll choose to the Liberal Party of Canada: "For 53 years, to begin reading and you could break at 12:30 and politicians have been trying to bring the Constitution we'll be back. back. Ten different and distinct attempts during the terms of six different Prime Ministers and politicians MR. CHAIRMAN: All right then, we'll proceed with have always failed. And that's why it's up to you, the the Catholic Women's League. Would the people to decide that this matter must be done." representatives of the Catholic Women's League After all this time and these many attempts, only introduce themselves? now is the Parliament of Canada coming to grips with the many individual issues which concern the MRS. BERNADETTE RUSSELL: My name is lives of all Canadians. The provincial governments Bernadette Russell. I am the President of the have been given ample opportunity to express their Manitoba Provincial Council of the Catholic Women's aspirations as well as their very real fears for the role League of Canada. Evenlyn Wyrzykowski is going to of their jurisdictions within a united Canada. Many share the brief with me, we'll both be doing the others of us have more recently recognized the reading. importance for us to speak out. Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members of the During these same 20 years, the Catholic Women's Legislative Committee, we have printed the League of Canada, sometimes known as the CWL, recommendations of our brief on the first couple of has repeatedly made representations to the pages. You will also note that in our brief at times we government of Canada and, indeed, to the refer to Appendix A and Appendix B. We did not see governments of the 10 provinces on matters of vital the need to duplicate these Appendices but should concern to Canadians such as fetal experimentation, any member want to see them or want copies, they Canada pensions, pornographic and obscene can be made available at a later time upon request. publications, gun control and family law reform. The Catholic Women's League of Canada was Therefore, we are taking this time to pull together formed in 1920, incorporated in 1923 as a union of some of these, our concerns, which we believe Catholic women of Canada. lt is dedicated to the relevant to the issue of constitutional reform, upholding and defence, in the public as we!l as in the pursuant to our motto for God in Canada. private sectors, of Christian values and education in the modern world; to contributing to the MRS. RUSSELL: In 1977, one of the League's most understanding and growth of religious freedom, important resolutions to the government of Canada social justice, peace and harmony; and to was on the subject of national unity and bears recognizing the human dignity of all people repetition at this time. "The National Council of the everywhere and has, over the past 60 years, Catholic Women's League, in convention assembled, presented its views on current issues of concern at affirms to the government of Canada its belief in and the national, provincial and regional levels. The most support for the goal of national unity and its recent presentation includes a statement in 1976, willingness to work with any other organization "The Right to Life - a Basic Norm of Society" and toward that goal." the statement in 1979 on "Human Rights" as well as The British North America Acts under which briefs incorporating resolutions passed at annual Canada has operated for over 100 years have national conventions. confirmed and reconfirmed certain understandings This organization, structured in such a way that and procedures by which Canada have regulated each individual member has the right to make her various aspects of their daily lives. Before any final views known at the parish, diocesan, provincial and decisions are made to entrench or alter these, the

93 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980

Catholic Women's League of Canada wishes to make MRS. WRYZYKOWSKI: We would like to point out its views known to those responsible for the to you that on the list of summary of repatriation of the Constitution. recommendations, there is a recommendation we just read that is not listed there, and that is the one MRS. WYRZYKOWSKI: So that the topics that we of an obligation that a parliamentary system ought to have chosen to speak on are varied and have a be spelled out in the Constitution and that the number of recommendations contained in each as Legislative Assemblies ought also to be responsible you will observe from the summary of to safeguard the human rights of citizens. it's the recommendations. We will begin with the first one, only one that's not listed there. The Parliamentary System. The Senate: Concomitant with our Canadian concept of a truly parliamentary system, in effect a MRS. RUSSELL: We are concerned that provision for checks and balances, is the idea of a constitutional change be viewed by the federal Senate that is part of the legislative process but government and the provinces as an opportunity to separate from that part of the Parliament now known unify the country. The critical decisions as to the as the House of Commons. division of powers between a federal government The Senate as now constituted under The British and each provincial government must be made in North America Act has powers, immunities and light of the necessity for Canadian unity and the privileges as defined by the Act of the Parliament of acknowledgement of the rights of individual citizens. Canada. Only its structure is dealt with in The BNA The Catholic Women's League of Canada agrees Act. with the principles expressed in "The Constitution lt is the view of the CWL that a Canadian and the People of Canada" that one of the Constitution should include the provision not only for objectives to be attained in a Constitution for the organization of the Senate, but also include the Canada is the protection of basic human rights and powers, immunities and privileges of those sitting in also agrees that the best means of obtaining the the House. The Catholic Women's League of Canada objectives of our Canadian society is the supports the inclusion in the parts of the Constitution continuation of the parliamentary system which dealing with the Senate of provision for members affords to citizens the protection of their fundamental from each of the provinces so that the interests of rights, ability to participate in the democratic the provinces may be properly represented and also processes, the maintenance of institutions which will supports the inclusion of a provision enabling the properly reflect the interest in both orders of provinces to determine their respective government and the ultimate protection of citizens by representatives in the Upper House. The inclusion of the courts. provincial representatives should in no way preclude In a country as broad geographically and as appointments through and by the federal diverse economically, culturally and socially as government. This new Upper Chamber would create Canada, a central government by those elected from a truly unique Canadian system reflecting our mosaic across the country representing a wide variety of of diverse cultures, ages and walks of life and would interests, backgrounds and occupations is essential. be a more effective forum for the discussion of A parliamentary system provides a forum for regionally-based concepts. discussion and debate by those elected One-half of the population of Canada is female, representatives and a central government provides a and in recent years women have taken their places in framework for the implementation of the decisions society and politics, and their abilities have become made in Parliament. available to the public sector. In spite of this, Universal suffrage and the rights of all citizens to however, there are only nine women currently in the stand for office, periodical elections and annual Senate. We emphasize that a Constitution needs to meetings of legislative bodies, all cited in "The include provision for a method whereby it is ensured Constitution and the People of Canada" are among that there will be the appointment of a significant the political rights the CWL endorses as proper number of women to the Upper House. The guarantees in a Constitution. discussion document, "Women and Constitutional At the provincial level as well, a parliamentary Renewal" makes the statement, "lt cannot be that system serves the widest possible representation and the lack of qualifications is keeping women out." We provides the structures for the implementation of the of the CWL believe that a time of constitutional democratic principles considered to be important. An change makes it opportune for us to request that obligation to also establish such a parliamentary governments reaffirm their commitment to equal system within the provinces is properly the subject of opportunity for women. That reform of the Senate a provision in the Canadian Constitution and it is could allow for a broader view of the basis from imperative that the rights of the individual citizen which the selection of Supreme Court justices be within each province be safeguarded. made. While the Federal Parliament must have the I quote from the Women and Constitution Renewal legislative authority over such areas as the national document, "The very cautious performance of our economy and international trade, unemployment Supreme Court in human rights areas may be in part insurance, the defence of the country, the monetary attributable to the fact that the judges are drawn system, and marriage and divorce, etc., other from a very narrow group: successful, middle-aged, matters are more properly within the jurisdiction of white, male lawyers. the provinces. These would include such authority as "Having a more representative composition in the regulating the provincial economy, agriculture, approving group may ensure over the years that education, municipal institutions in the province, potential judges with different backgrounds are property and civil rights. sought out." Therefore, we believe that a certain

94 Tuesday, 18 November, 1980 number of women justices should be added and we to, everyone has the following fundamental freedoms further recommend that a court be drawn from a including conscience, religion, opinion, expression, wider group in society than is now the case. etc; every citizen of Canada has a right to vote; everyone has the right to life, liberty and retain MRS. RUSSELL: Education: The objectives of counsel; everyone has the right to equality before the Confederation as expressed by the government laws and equal protection of the law without include the promotion of national econonic, social discrimination because of age, race, colour, religion, and cultural development, including the opportunity or sex. for education. The British North America Acts have Since there is no definition of person, everyone, or provided for individual differences by setting out in every citizen nor is there any separate reference to Section 93 a guarantee of denominational schools rights of a child, our concern is that the and the retention of a system of separate or interpretation of the wording of person, everyone, or dissentient schools. For over one hundred years every citizen, would or could be all inclusive of living parents have been assured that no provincial persons of all ages. authority can affect the right or privilege of a Some of these rights are not now deemed minority in relation to education. appropriate for a child and there is a need to spell The CWL most emphatically endorses the right of out specific rights and safeguards for the protection children to education and the rights of all Canadian of children. parents to schools of their choice. This includes The way the Constitution reads now, it seems to us schools which are chosen because of language or that too much is being left to be resolved in the because of religion. courts. Because of the gravity of this provision in The British North America Acts, earlier this year the MRS. WYRZYKOWSKI: Mr. Chairman, I recognize Catholic Women's League of Canada passed a that it's approaching 12:30. Would you like us to resolution at the national convention dealing with the stop at this point and proceed after lunch? matter as follows: "WHEREAS in view of the continuing MR. CHAIRMAN: I see that your Family Life portion Constitutional discussions at the federal-provincial is two-and-a-half pages. Yes, we'll break for lunch level; now and start with you at 2:00 p.m. on Page 10 of "THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that we, the your brief. National Council of the Catholic Women's League of Canada, do direct member councils to make written MRS. WYRZYKOWSKI: Thank you very much. representation to their Premiers insisting that in any review of the Canadian Constitution the rights of MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. parents to denominational schools as presently enshrined in The BNA Acts, Section 93, be preserved; and, "BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that as a national council we make our views known to the Prime Minister of Canada; and, "BE IT FURTH ER RESOLVED that without prejudicing present denominational rights in any way, we insist that the federal government recognize in any Bill of Rights the right of other minority groups to choose an education for their children which conforms to their legitimate requirements." We urge the government of Canada in its deliberations on repatriating the Constitution and on entrenching the Bill of Rights to provide every guarantee that the fundamental rights of parents to choose the type of education required for their children will be upheld and will be funded by the appropriate jurisdiction. The newly organized Federation of Independent Schools in Canada has brought together most federations, associations and independent schools for the purpose of exchanging ideas, educational concerns and to develop common approaches in governmental areas, particularly at the national level. In addition, the Federation by its nature and makeup will hopefully act as effective liaison between other existing national associations and so strengthen the educational bonds and forces in Canada. Rights of children under the Charter of Rights and Freedom: In the interests of clarification and concern for the clear understanding of the role or responsibility of the family in relation to dependent children, we question the intent of the Act in relation

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