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Clerk in Attendance LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 3 April 2019 8273 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Wednesday, 3 April 2019 The Council met at Eleven o'clock MEMBERS PRESENT: THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, G.B.S., J.P. PROF THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, G.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P. 8274 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 3 April 2019 THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H. THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, B.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK WING-HANG THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, S.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 3 April 2019 8275 THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN DR THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H. DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, S.B.S., J.P. IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, S.B.S., M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN THE HONOURABLE ALVIN YEUNG THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WAN SIU-KIN THE HONOURABLE CHU HOI-DICK THE HONOURABLE JIMMY NG WING-KA, J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE JUNIUS HO KWAN-YIU, J.P. THE HONOURABLE HO KAI-MING THE HONOURABLE LAM CHEUK-TING THE HONOURABLE HOLDEN CHOW HO-DING THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-FAI THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-CHUN THE HONOURABLE WILSON OR CHONG-SHING, M.H. THE HONOURABLE YUNG HOI-YAN 8276 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 3 April 2019 DR THE HONOURABLE PIERRE CHAN THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHUN-YING, J.P. THE HONOURABLE TANYA CHAN THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI CHI-FUNG THE HONOURABLE LUK CHUNG-HUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU KWOK-FAN, M.H. THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LAU IP-KEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE CHENG CHUNG-TAI THE HONOURABLE JEREMY TAM MAN-HO THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI THE HONOURABLE AU NOK-HIN THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG WING-SHUN, M.H. THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE CHAN HOI-YAN MEMBERS ABSENT: THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, S.B.S., M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE KWONG CHUN-YU LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 3 April 2019 8277 PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING: THE HONOURABLE MATTHEW CHEUNG KIN-CHUNG, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P. CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION THE HONOURABLE PAUL CHAN MO-PO, G.B.M., G.B.S., M.H., J.P. FINANCIAL SECRETARY THE HONOURABLE MS TERESA CHENG YEUK-WAH, G.B.S., S.C., J.P. SECRETARY FOR JUSTICE THE HONOURABLE WONG KAM-SING, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT THE HONOURABLE NICHOLAS W. YANG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR INNOVATION AND TECHNOLOGY THE HONOURABLE LAU KONG-WAH, J.P. SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS THE HONOURABLE JAMES HENRY LAU JR., J.P. SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY DR THE HONOURABLE LAW CHI-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE THE HONOURABLE JOSHUA LAW CHI-KONG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE THE HONOURABLE JOHN LEE KA-CHIU, S.B.S., P.D.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR SECURITY THE HONOURABLE FRANK CHAN FAN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING PROF THE HONOURABLE SOPHIA CHAN SIU-CHEE, J.P. SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH 8278 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 3 April 2019 DR BERNARD CHAN PAK-LI, J.P. UNDER SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, AND SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DR CHOI YUK-LIN, J.P. UNDER SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION, AND SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION THE HONOURABLE PATRICK NIP TAK-KUEN, J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS MR LIU CHUN-SAN, J.P. UNDER SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT CLERK IN ATTENDANCE: MR KENNETH CHEN WEI-ON, S.B.S., SECRETARY GENERAL THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE TO ATTEND THIS MEETING UNDER RULE 8 OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS PUT BY MEMBERS. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 3 April 2019 8279 THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE'S QUESTION TIME PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members will please remain standing while the Chief Executive enters the Chamber. (When the Chief Executive entered the Chamber and walked towards the rostrum, a number of Members with placards in hand entered the Chamber and chanted aloud the slogan: "Objection to rendition amendments! Withdraw draconian law!") PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please keep quiet. (Members stopped shouting) PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Chief Executive's Question Time. (A number of Members again chanted aloud the slogan) PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If any Member continues to shout, I will immediately order him to withdraw from the Chamber without giving any further warning. PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Question Time is conducted in a "short question, short answer" format. Members who wish to ask questions please press the "Request to speak" button. Each Member called upon to ask a question will be given 3 minutes. The time for asking a question should not exceed 1.5 minutes so that the Chief Executive will have time to reply. MR ANDREW WAN (in Cantonese): Chief Executive, before the reunification, the Government and the legislature of Hong Kong decided not to forge a long-term agreement on surrender of fugitive offenders with the Mainland, in view of the standard of rule of law on the Mainland, its dismal record in protecting basic human rights and the stark difference between the criminal 8280 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 3 April 2019 justice system of Hong Kong and that of the Mainland. Meanwhile, in a bid to reassure public confidence, the leaders of the Communist Party of China made such undertakings as "one country, two systems", "a high degree of autonomy" and "river water does not intrude into well water". Hence, it is with the approval and agreement of both sides that the state of having no agreement can continue to this day. Contrary to your description of this as a "loophole", this is in fact an intentional arrangement. Having served as a government official for years and experienced the transitional period first-hand, you cannot justifiably claim ignorance of this. In this connection, the Hong Kong Bar Association ("HKBA") also issued a press release yesterday with criticisms directed at you. I have this question. Since there are no loopholes, and the Taiwan authorities have stated clearly that they will not accept the fugitive surrender arrangement currently proposed by the Hong Kong Government, why did you and Secretary John LEE let an entire year go by without engaging Taiwan in discussions on a one-off surrender arrangement, and piggyback instead on the deceased and this tragedy to deceive the public and the family of the deceased? Why are you playing the role of WU San-gui the traitor, taking the initiative to undermine "one country, two systems" and invite "river water" to intrude into "well water"? CHIEF EXECUTIVE (in Cantonese): President, in respect of the many discussions in the community concerning the relevant amendments to the ordinances on surrender of fugitive offenders recently, Secretary John LEE and I have been patiently giving accounts to the public. The amendments have two objectives, one of which is to provide us with a legal basis to deal with the Taiwan homicide case which involves a Hongkonger being murdered by another Hongkonger. The latter who is suspected of murdering a Hongkonger, however, has returned to Hong Kong. Since there is no legal basis for us to surrender fugitive offenders to Taiwan, we cannot do so even if the Taiwan authorities make a request for surrender of the fugitive offender. But it did not mean that we have done nothing. Over the past year, we have, through the efforts of our colleagues in the Security Bureau and those in several divisions of the Department of Justice, worked very hard to study under what circumstances and in what ways can such surrender be enabled. Then, we came up with a method that is compliant with LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 3 April 2019 8281 the legal requirements and hopefully will work. During the process, it was apparent to all that there is indeed a loophole in our existing laws in dealing with the surrender of fugitive offenders. Regardless, having noted Mr Andrew WAN relaying the remarks of HKBA and accusing us of somewhat misleading just now, I will now explain the meaning of "loopholes".
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