Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon The National Assembly for Wales The Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Committee
Dydd Iau, 30 Tachwedd 2006 Thursday, 30 November 2006
Cynnwys Contents
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest
Cofnodion y Cyfarfod Diwethaf a Hynt y Camau i’w Cymryd Minutes of Last Meeting and Progress on Action Points
Adroddiad Blynyddol i’r Pwyllgor gan Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Cymru Annual Report to Committee from National Museum Wales
Adroddiad Blynyddol i’r Pwyllgor gan Lyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru Annual Report to Committee from National Library of Wales
Cronfeydd Diwylliannol Ewrop European Cultural Funds
Cynnig Trefniadol Procedural Motion
Cofnodir y trafodion hyn yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir cyfieithiad Saesneg o gyfraniadau yn y Gymraeg. These proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, an English translation of Welsh speeches is included.
Aelodau Cynulliad yn bresennol: Rosemary Butler (Cadeirydd), Eleanor Burnham, Lisa Francis, Denise Idris Jones, Val Lloyd, Alun Pugh (y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon), Owen John Thomas.
Swyddogion yn bresennol: Neil Cox, Gwasanaeth Ymchwil yr Aelodau; Gwilym Evans, Cyfarwyddwr Dros Dro y Gyfarwyddiaeth dros Ddiwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon; Gwyn Griffiths, Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol y Pwyllgor; Ann John, Pennaeth, Cangen y Llyfrgell Genedlaethol a’r Amgueddfa Genedlaethol; Nia Lewis, Swyddfa Ewrop, Brwsel.
Eraill yn bresennol: Andrew Green, Llyfrgellydd Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru; Robin Gwyn, Cyfarwyddwr Cyfathrebu Amgueddfa Cymru; Michael Houlihan, Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol Amgueddfa Cymru; Judith Ingram, Pennaeth Polisi a Chynllunio Amgueddfa Cymru; Dr R. Brinley Jones CBE, Llywydd Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru; Paul Loveluck CBE, YH, Llywydd Amgueddfa Cymru.
Gwasanaeth y Pwyllgor: Julia Annand, Clerc; Vaughan Watkin, Dirprwy Glerc.
Assembly Members in attendance: Rosemary Butler (Chair), Eleanor Burnham, Lisa Francis, Denise Idris Jones, Val Lloyd, Alun Pugh (the Minister for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport), Owen John Thomas.
Officials in attendance: Neil Cox, Members’ Research Service; Gwilym Evans, Acting Director, Directorate for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport; Gwyn Griffiths, Legal Adviser to the Committee; Ann John, Head, National Library and National Museum Branch; Nia Lewis, European Office, Brussels.
Others in attendance: Andrew Green, Librarian, National Library of Wales; Robin Gwyn, Director of Communication, National Museum Wales; Michael Houlihan, Director General, National Museum Wales; Dr Judith Ingram, Head of Policy and Planning, National Museum Wales; Dr R. Brinley Jones CBE, President, National Library of Wales; Paul Loveluck CBE, JP, President, National Museum Wales.
Committee Service: Julia Annand, Clerk; Vaughan Watkin, Deputy Clerk.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9.01 a.m. The meeting began at 9.01 a.m.
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest [1] Rosemary Butler: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Committee. I will just do the usual reminders. Members, I know that this is the culture committee, but we really do not want any musical accompaniment, so if you could please turn your mobile phones off, it would be helpful. Please turn them off altogether as they interfere with the broadcasting system.
[2] I also remind Members to make any declarations of interest that have come up since the last meeting. You are well aware of the Presiding Officer’s rules and regulations and I am sure that you will stick by those.
[3] I remind the committee that we have a private session at the end of this meeting to discuss our report on football. You will also remember, from Tuesday’s debate, that the Digital Switchover (Disclosure of Information) Bill has been remitted by Plenary to this committee for consideration. I suggest that we look at that on 13 December; we will have to jiggle the agenda slightly, but we will look at that then. I also think that the Minister, in his next report, on 13 December, will include something on the smoking regulations and their impact on arts and sports venues. Is that right, Minister?
[4] The Minister for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport (Alun Pugh): Yes.
[5] Rosemary Butler: While you are all delighted to have received a copy of the arts panel review yesterday, it is not on the agenda today. There is to be a full debate on it in Plenary next Wednesday and so I am sure that you will all enjoy yourselves then. We will be discussing it in committee on 25 January, so you can have two bites of the cherry.
[6] I have possibly received an apology from Laura Anne. We are not sure whether she is coming or not, but if she does not come, we have received her apologies. Are there any other apologies? I see that there are not.
9.03 a.m.
Cofnodion y Cyfarfod Diwethaf a Hynt y Camau i’w Cymryd Minutes of Last Meeting and Progress on Action Points
[7] Rosemary Butler: Does everyone agree the short minutes of the last meeting? I see that you do. Are there are any matters that are not concluded in the action points that anyone would like to raise? We will go through the action points. Is there anything on pages 5, 6, or 7?
[8] Eleanor Burnham: Could I just refer to the advert for the post of chair of the Arts Council of Wales? Has that advert been placed?
[9] Rosemary Butler: Which page is that on?
[10] Eleanor Burnham: It is on page 5.
[11] Rosemary Butler: It says that the Minister is to advise on that. [12] Alun Pugh: It is in my report, Chair. You and Owen John Thomas are the two committee nominees for the appointments panel for this post, and it is my intention to start the process. You will recall that I gave an undertaking that we would wait for the Stephens report to be published before starting the formal process. That report is now in the public domain and so the process will continue.
[13] Eleanor Burnham: Does that mean that it will be done before Christmas?
[14] Rosemary Butler: It cannot be done before Christmas; however, I would have thought that it would be advertised before Christmas.
[15] Eleanor Burnham: That is what I meant.
[16] Alun Pugh: It depends on the publication schedule of various papers, but it is entirely possible.
[17] Lisa Francis: In the action points from the meeting on 15 November, it says that the advert would be placed before Christmas.
[18] Alun Pugh: If we can do so before Christmas, we will.
[19] Rosemary Butler: I think that that is what the Minister is saying. He has written to Owen John and to me, saying that he is going to start the process. Obviously, he needs to catch the papers. Are you saying that some of the adverts may be placed before Christmas and some of them just after?
[20] Alun Pugh: Yes.
[21] Rosemary Butler: What about pages 8, 9, 10, 11? I assume that you have marked it, and that that is why I am flicking through these pages? What about pages 12, 13, 14, 15, 16? Did I go too quickly for anyone? Does someone want to raise any other points? I see that you do not. You can always raise them later if we have missed something.
Cadarnhawyd cofnodion y cyfarfod blaenorol. The minutes of the previous meeting were ratified.
9.06 a.m.
Adroddiad Blynyddol i’r Pwyllgor gan Amgueddfa Genedlaethol Cymru Annual Report to Committee from National Museum Wales
[22] Rosemary Butler: I welcome representatives of National Museum Wales. I cannot believe that a year has passed since you were last here—although some of you have been here since then.
[23] We will look at progress during the last year and have an overview of future plans. I particularly welcome Paul Loveluck, who is the president. Paul, would you like to introduce your team? [24] Mr Loveluck: Certainly. You will know Mike Houlihan, the director general, and Robin Gwyn, our director of communications. You might not know Dr Judith Ingram, who works with Mike to help to co-ordinate policies and so on in the museum.
[25] Rosemary Butler: Fine, thank you. I think that there is a slight technical hitch, so please excuse me if I have to turn my back to you.
[26] Mr Loveluck: Before Mike starts on his presentation, I offer a word of thanks to all the political parties represented in the Assembly. As you know, the national museum is currently running an exhibition called, Discover the Muslim Heritage in our World. We came under attack from a particular political party for this, which accused us of disregarding our Welsh heritage, but that could not be further from the truth. Our mission, in shorthand terms, is to tell Wales about the world and to tell the world about Wales. We cannot discharge that remit, if we had the restrictive policy of the sort that that political party wanted. The museum appreciates the unanimous expression of support by the political parties, which came out very clearly; that was very well received.
[27] Rosemary Butler: That was a good commercial for an excellent exhibition, so thank you for that. We hope that you will continue to hold similar exhibitions in the future.
[28] Mr Houlihan: Last year, I took the opportunity of explaining some of the longer-term plans of the museum to the committee. This year, I would like to focus on next year and provide you with a centenary diary. We have listed here around 30 activities that we are undertaking next year, which just give you some flavour of the range and breadth of projects and work that we will be undertaking in our centenary year.
[29] In the briefing paper, you will find that we have listed some of our key operational activities in relation to learning, stewardship, diversity, working in partnership, and raising our profile and how we use our resources. In this presentation, I have tried to show how each of these projects is delivering on some of those particular areas.
[30] Last year, I also spent some time telling you about our intellectual direction and about some of the key themes that we feel are relevant to society today, such as life, origins, belonging, creativity and futures. So, again, in this presentation, I will illustrate where we are delivering on those key themes through the projects that we are working on.
[31] Essentially, an underlying theme was that we are continuing, with the Assembly, to measure performance, but we are also moving towards a system of performance evaluation. It is important to look at what you do, how you do it and what you learn from that. So, we are looking at a system of performance learning, if you like, for the future. That will inform the quality of the work that we are trying to deliver. Those core values that we have set out in our vision are fundamentally important. The museum, over the past 100 years, has been known for excellence and learning, but we also have aspirations in relation to innovation and, in particular, being relevant to the society in which we operate, which is about justifying the money that we receive from you.
9.10 a.m. [32] Moving on, the other theme that we have tried to pick up is that of the Assembly’s agenda and how we match against it. We are already working on some of the outcomes of the Beecham report, particularly in relation to developing a citizen-centred model and the whole question of public ownership of our collections. Those are some underlying themes.
[33] This presentation is covering about three projects a minute. The proof of any programme is really in its public programming, so we shall kick off with January. We are into biodiversity straightaway, with an exhibition on the research work that we have been undertaking in the outer Bristol channel marine habitat study. I will describe to you in very simple language what that process is about. The objective was to undertake a marine geophysical survey, utilising multi-beam sidescan, sonar and sub-bottom seismic reflection systems, and a sediment and benthic fauna survey using grabs, trawls and dredges. However, a copy of this CD-ROM is available in every school in Wales, which explains it in much simpler language.
[34] It is a very important project, in relation to looking at marine habitats in the outer Bristol channel with a direct effect on Wales. This illustrates not only the leading-edge research that the museum is undertaking but also the fact that we are trying to make that research understandable to schools. There are copies of the CD-ROM available for anyone who wants one. That brings us to the whole question of life partnerships. We worked with the British Geological Survey on this project. However, I think that it is about the future too.
[35] Remaining in January, we are putting on a small exhibition and releasing a publication to mark the nationalisation of the coal industry and the creation of the National Coal Board, which is somewhat derogatorily described in that caption that you can see. That will be centred on our activities at Big Pit.
[36] With regard to raising our profile, we are taking some of our finest art treasures for four days to Christie’s in London. This is about giving London a window onto Wales and the richness of the art collections, particularly in the museum, as well as about enabling us to build new relationships in London. We already have a London centenary committee and a development committee. As key objectives of this, we are looking to build relationships and raise money for our art projects, particularly in relation to developing the upper floor of the museum at Cathays park as the national museum of art. That is not to be confused with the national gallery of art, which is a much longer- term and bigger project. We see this as fundamental to creating the foundations for relationships in future.
[37] Rosemary Butler: May I just chip in to clarify that the paintings will be coming back from Christie’s?
[38] Mr Houlihan: Sorry, I should have made that very clear. You could probably fund several art galleries from the proceeds of such an auction, but I do not want to raise any thoughts in your mind.
[39] Rosemary Butler: We did not hear that. [Laughter.] [40] Mr Houlihan: To continue on the art theme, but to emphasise the partnership aspect, we are having a naming competition for the proposed Sutherland gallery. The Sutherland collection, which is currently housed at the museum, will be put on display in partnership with Pembrokeshire Coast National Park at St Davids. We are inviting people to get involved in a competition to name that new development. It is a very exciting project, as it enables us to develop partnerships and make our collections available across Wales, while also pushing the ownership agenda, getting people involved in what they want to see us displaying and how we are going to display it in future. That is a very important theme of all of our work, and has been reflected in changes in governance and the fact that we are now engaged in talking with people, not at them.
[41] To pick up on the theme that Paul mentioned earlier, the festival of Muslim cultures will come to an end. It is important to remember that it will be on display—the two exhibitions—for the first two months of our centenary year. However, in the process of evaluation, we are hoping to carry out a significant evaluation exercise, possibly in the form of a seminar involving the various communities and partners that we have worked with on this project, to evaluate how we go forward. It is important that we do not neglect the partnerships that we have built, and we need to look at other ways of stimulating and developing those partnerships before we move on to develop other partnerships.
[42] In the spring, we will look at how to develop St Fagan’s as the national history museum, in terms of it being a one-stop shop that will tell the story of the peoples of Wales. This is about long- term planning. In the spring, we hope that our external panel and committee advisory panel will be in place to start to develop and bring forward some of the key themes that we will display in the longer term. The project runs to 2010-12, but we need to get into the planning stages at this point. Just to remind you, the project at St Fagan’s will bring together not only the open air collections, but our social history and archaeology collections, to tell the themed and chronological story of the peoples of Wales.
[43] In March, we are putting on a display of 10 drawings by Leonardo da Vinci, which are drawn from the royal collection. It is another illustration of the ways in which we are working in partnership, but we feel that it will also be important for raising our profile within Wales and externally. It will be particularly important in Wales, because given all the work that is taking place in the national museum in Cathays park, in particular, we need to sustain our audience levels. So, this is the type of project that will do that, and Leonardo da Vinci has achieved certain notoriety lately, so we feel that this is entirely appropriate and that it should have good popular appeal.
[44] In March also, we are putting on a travelling exhibition of Angus McBean photographs. Angus McBean was born in Newport, and he was a society and portrait photographer. He did the first album cover for the Beatles, which was one of his later works. The exhibition has been organised by the National Portrait Gallery, and it is supported by the Colwinston Charitable Trust. For those of you who are wondering, the photograph is of Dorothy Dickson, an actress and dancer, who he photographed in 1948. [45] A major exhibition opening in March is ‘Perthyn’, or ‘Belonging’, at Oriel Un in St Fagan’s. It is a new and challenging exhibition, not only for the museum, but for our users. It tries to unravel and discover the many different ways in which you can belong to a country and a nation. It tries to challenge many stereotypes and it encourages people to respect the cultures, beliefs and practices of others, so it takes a broad view of what it means to live in Wales in the twenty-first century. There will be community-curated segments to the exhibitions, so we are very much involving the public and a wide range of communities. The exhibition also looks at many of the icons of Wales, so it is a new type of exhibition, and we will be doing a lot of work on evaluating how the project works and how it will feed into our longer-term plans for developing the national history museum at St Fagan’s.
[46] We will be redeveloping the shop at Cathays park in April, and instead of having two segments to the shop, it will be more efficient just to house the shop in one area. In the area that will be released, we will be emphasising the outreach collection. This is again about improving access to our collections and getting people engaged with the collections. So, they are two quite different projects that hit a number of our key themes.
[47] The current phase of the On Common Ground project also comes to a close in April. It has been a successful project, and the committee has been briefed on it on a number of occasions. It is about reaching people, particularly young people, who do not ‘do’ museums. We have submitted applications for further funding to create a phase 3 of the project, so hopefully that will pick up and move forward in the new year.
[48] In terms of partnership projects, there is the Views of Venice project at Bodelwyddan castle, which continues with creativity in partnership. This is an example of the museum taking some of its high-value paintings and parts of its collections to partner venues. It has been a key objective of the partnership programme to share these very important collections across Wales. We feel that we are now starting to hit that particular button.
9.20 a.m.
[49] In May, we will be joining in the UK-wide anniversary celebrations to mark the abolition of the slave trade. We will be mounting a project at the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea. Also in May, we will be taking forward further the international partnership that now exists between the National Slate Museum, Llanberis and the Slate Valley Museum in Granville, New York state. It is important that it is a living partnership and not just a sign that we have hung up outside the museum. We will be looking at further development for projects on memory, migration and so on. So, that project is now deepening, and the group from Granville will be coming to Llanberis next summer.
[50] Not forgetting our involvement with key national festivals, we will be working again with our colleagues from the National Library of Wales in terms of joint celebrations in relation to the Urdd festival in particular. [51] We have not put a date on this, but you will recall from the presentation that the national museum gave here with the Arts Council of Wales during the summer that we are now working with the culture department to take forward a display-of-art feasibility study, to look at what hard options are out there, and to come down with some strong facts and figures. We hope that this project will be completed in the spring or early summer of next year, but I think that it is a very important step in terms of long-term planning, bearing in mind that it will be another 10 to 15 years before we have a national gallery of art. We have to take these steps, and it is important that we all understand the financial implications and other resourcing implications of what would be a major capital project.
[52] In June, we are planning to launch a coffee-table-type book, celebrating 100 years of the national museum, which will contain many of the iconic images and images of documents and artefacts associated with the museum. We are producing that with Graffeg, which has done a lot of work for the Welsh National Opera, for example. In June, we are also reopening the Nantgarw collection centre; the lower photograph on the screen shows some of the additional extensions that we have added there. It is a very impressive space; it is a super aircraft hanger that we have down there and it will be a pity to fill it with collections. It is a great space and a tremendous addition in terms of taking pressure off a number of our other sites. It also helps us to improve access to some of our stored collections at the other sites. The Assembly has funded that project.
[53] The next picture shows fun and japes in Caerleon in July, at the annual centenary Roman spectacular. It is also the thirty-fifth anniversary of the Ermine Street Guard re-enactment society, whose representatives are pictured. Then, to be quite serious, there is the tercentenary of Linnaeus, who was responsible for creating taxonomic and classification systems in science. We will be celebrating that, bearing in mind that, in the context of Wales, the national museum is probably the only organisation—including universities—that is still researching systems of classification and taxonomy. I think that there is recognition among academics that what the museum is doing is quite unique, and so this is something that we feel that we should be celebrating.
[54] We also have a major exhibition in July on the Davies sisters. It has a slightly different take on the Davies sisters, because, at the moment, galleries are set out with the emphasis on the art and not the sisters. This exhibition is about looking at the Davies sisters as collectors, and looking not only at their collection of French nineteenth-century art, but at how they collected ceramics from the middle east. In fact, one of the ceramics that I showed you earlier on the screen was from their Oriental art collection. The exhibition will also look at their work with books and so on, so it will look at them as philanthropists and collectors. Therefore, it is a very interesting and different sort of exhibition, particularly with that social history dimension to it.
[55] Again, in partnership, the Tregwynt hoard will be going to Scolton Manor near Haverfordwest. In August, there is the National Eisteddfod for Wales. This year, again, we had a successful partnership at the Eisteddfod with the national library, particularly in relation to our shop, where we made some money, so we will be looking to repeat that joint involvement. [56] Again, in August, we will continue to redisplay our important ceramics collection, and also the centenary purchase. Thanks to grants from the Derek Williams trust, and the museum matching those, we will be able to spend some £2 million on items of contemporary art. Given the present market, £2 million does not go a long way—you could get a small Braque for that perhaps—so it seems that what we will be looking at is probably acquiring a contemporary ceramics collection for the whole group by a well-known international artist.
[57] In August, we are hoping to take the first step in creating a Roman garden at the National Roman Legion Museum. Essentially, this will mean blanking it off from the road, and then, initially, creating a herb garden; eventually, we hope to build a triclinium, which is an outside eating area, as well as a small water feature. Therefore, we are developing that site also.
[58] In September, we will sit down with our centenary partner, BBC Wales. We are looking, broadly, at taking the theme of 100 favourite objects, and using several media platforms to encourage the public to vote for one icon, which reflects Wales, and which is drawn from our collections. We hope that 16 well-known Welsh personalities will champion their choice; it will be rather like the Restoration programme. There will be four personalities in each programme, and they will speak to curators, and people from outside, about their choice. There will be a live final from one of our seven sites, with a live audience, and, as I say, people will be able to vote on their favourite object. Therefore, it is quite interactive. It will also relate to the publication that I mentioned earlier, and to exhibition work that we are putting on in the museum.
[59] Sticking with the virtual, we hope to launch the virtual museum in September. As I believe I have explained before, this is about our research platform for the future. However, it will also be about looking at new ways of developing and configuring the content of the museum’s collections, so that it can be downloaded, or whatever, prior to a visit to the museum. That seems to be the direction that technology is taking in American museums—museums will very much be concerned with their collections, and with configuring the content and knowledge that they hold, and less worried about some aspects of the technology, because the public will bring the technology to the museum on their own ears, as it were.
[60] Meanwhile, up at Big Pit, subject to final approval of funding in December from the Heritage Lottery Fund, we hope to open our new education facility, funded not only by the HLF, but by the £100,000 prize money from the Gulbenkian award, which we received last year.
[61] An important project in October at St Fagan’s is the reopening of St Teilo’s church, from Llandeilo Tal-y-bont. It will be opened in its pre-Reformation state, dating from around 1520, so it will be complete with its wall paintings, carved screens and rood loft. We are hoping to have an ecumenical opening, which Archbishop Rowan Williams will also attend. Therefore, that is an important landmark in our year. [62] We will have a small display about the Spanish civil war, which is an example of one of our smaller projects. This will be centred on the private collection of one of the men in this photograph—he is standing at the back, on the right-hand side. His name is Edward Greening, and he was a member of the fifteenth British battalion of the International Brigade. We have recently acquired several of his personal items, which provide a fascinating record of his time in Spain. Therefore, that is a small exhibition, which we will be putting on at Big Pit and at the National Waterfront Museum.
9.30 a.m.
[63] In November we will start to re-open the galleries that are currently closed—if any of you have been past Cathays park, you will have seen the scaffolding going up for the work on the roofs. We will start to re-open the east wing galleries, but we will not just be putting the same old things back; we will be putting on new works of art and presenting them in new and different ways. There will be strong elements of Welsh art, which will be one strand that the visitor will be able to follow as a discrete item. We will be setting the Welsh art in the context of the international art movements of the period. This will bring the story roughly up to the nineteenth century from some of our earlier collections, which are sixteenth century. We will also be including Welsh portraits, for example, as a discrete element within that. So, it is an interesting and new development.
[64] Another major exhibition that will be opening in December is Origins: in search of early Wales. This exhibition will be the first major redisplay of our archaeology collection in 30 years. The archaeologists are doing some very interesting work in terms of presentation, from the point of view of looking at how society has changed, and how the process of change is relevant to the world that we live in today. So, they are looking at issues to do with the environment and how people, several thousand years ago, addressed the environment. It is important to bear in mind that this goes into pre written history, so, it is almost a period pre memory that the archaeologists are dealing with. There are some really interesting issues to bring out in that. Social history is very much about memory, while archaeology lacks memory in some areas, so it will be fascinating to see how they establish these links between the world today and the world of 2,000 or 3,000 years ago.
[65] Finally, in December, we are hoping to put on a centenary conference to close the year. We hope that this will be an international conference, which will look at the role of the national museum in small countries and how minorities work in small nations. So, there is a powerful series of ideas to be investigated there. Then it will be 2008.
[66] Rosemary Butler: Thank you, Michael. That was fascinating. Obviously, we will all have a very busy year if we spend it all in your museum. It is important, though, that the museum belongs to the people, and that people feel that they are welcome and that you are reaching out to them. I now open the discussion up for questions. [67] Val Lloyd: You led into my question rather nicely, Chair, on opening the museum up to the world. I would like to hear your views on opening it up to hard-to-reach communities. I noticed in your presentation, which I thoroughly enjoyed—thank you for that—that, in April, you have On Common Ground, and in September you have the virtual museum, which I am sure will go some way towards that. Can you let us know what progress has been made on the vision open days? What sectors of society have you identified as being less likely to engage with your activities? I take on board that there is a range of activities and a range of sites—the museum is not in one place. Can you give any other examples of the adaptation and where you hope to go?
[68] Mr Houlihan: I will start at the institutional top, as it were. We now have the new charter, which contains provision for finding alternative ways of engaging with a broader range of the public. I think that I have said this before: we are now coming from the principle that we hold the collections in trust on behalf of the people, so it is the people who own the collections. On that basis, we are piloting a number of ways of trying to improve that form of engagement. In October, we held a public open day at the National Waterfront Museum. We are currently doing the evaluation of that day. It is true to say that some things worked and some did not. What worked really well with the public was getting their views on ideas for how we should use our collections. The public love handling collections and that sort of thing. They also gave us some really good advice on how we caption and use different media in relation to our collections. So, we looked at a variety of different ways of captioning the same object and we got views on what works and what does not work. In fact, with one of the panels that I put up earlier in relation to the Perthyn gallery, we showed members of the public copies of the full texts and then got feedback on which colours and what text size worked. There were some very detailed issues there.
[69] In terms of asking the public, on that occasion, what sort of stories the museum should be telling, I think that it would be true to say that that was a little less successful. So, we have to find other ways of doing that. Perhaps one of the ways into that will be the citizens’ panels or citizens’ councils that we are hoping to create. We are already well on the way to establishing the friends’ panel. We are also creating a panel with home learners to get their take on what they need from the museum in terms of their special learning needs. We are now coming out of the Festival of Muslim Cultures and also looking at working with various ethnic communities on panels—I think that they might be specific to particular communities—to get their feedback on what they want and information on how they visit museums and how they want to use them. We are looking at quite a raft of different ways of going forward.
[70] We are also looking at how each individual site can start to engage with the ownership programme. It has to be something that happens almost automatically. When we take on a project, we look at risk management and health and safety, and we obviously look at the resources, but we should also look at the public ownership dimension of everything that we do. I will use the Perthyn gallery as an example, again. It has involved a lot of work with a broad variety of different communities, coming out of On Common Ground and other areas where staff are working, to get feedback about what people want to see in the exhibition. As I mentioned, getting the community involved in curating some of the elements of the exhibition is part of their engagement. There has been a whole variety of focus groups looking at whether our brand has worked or not and at what we might look to do to improve things for the future. There is a whole raft of things going on, but it is about changing our working practices and it takes time. [71] Mr Loveluck: Could I mention two other aspects that may be relevant? First, we now have formal partnerships with 14 local authorities in respect of galleries and museums. All the local authorities have signed up to the inclusiveness agenda. In working with them, we do not say, ‘Have this exhibition; it is good for you’—we encourage local curators to tell the stories that they want to tell, stories that are relevant to their local communities. In that way, we are also addressing the people who feel excluded, through our partnerships with the local authorities.
[72] The second aspect is an economic one. In two of our museums, we have extremely close relationships with the local tourism industry—the Padarn forum in Llanberis and Caerleon, where the museum curators are, in fact, the driving forces behind the tourism fora. That is also an important partnership, which is integrating into local society.
[73] Val Lloyd: That was very impressive and comprehensive. However, I will take it a stage further. This point may well be for future engagement, in that once you have got people in, you have got them engaged; once you have got them in the fora, you have got them engaged; once you have got them inside a gallery, the same is true. How would you reach the people in Communities First areas who do not have a tradition of visiting, say, the National Waterfront Museum that is based in Swansea?
[74] Mr Houlihan: This is very much what the On Common Ground project was deeply concerned with. That has gone from quite a small engagement to quite a number of multi-faceted projects taking place within, largely, Communities First areas. It is important to bear in mind that this project has been totally externally funded. Okay, the museum put in some money, but it is one of the interesting issues that the museum will have to grapple with in terms of its investment plans. If you were to ask me, although I do not have the precise statistics, I would know that the cost per head for each of those kids who do not ‘do’ museums, in terms of the investment that has been made, is astronomical compared with the cost per visitor head of people who just come in, on a daily basis, to the museum. So, there is a big investment issue there.
[75] What is quite interesting about it is that you have this issue between numbers and quality, because what you can show from the On Common Ground project is that this has had a transformational impact on people’s lives. You can demonstrate that and evidence it. Hopefully, that will take pressure off the economic system elsewhere.
9.40 a.m.
[76] Mr Loveluck: Frequently, what happens is that people do not come into the museum, as such: they bring what they have done in their communities into the museum for other people to see. They get an increased sense of pride and self-esteem when they see their work on display in the national museum.
[77] Mr Houlinhan: Alongside Van Gogh. [78] Eleanor Burnham: Following on from that, I am interested in the virtual museum and the fact that you cannot spread your access completely without doing this. Apart from what you have just described, which is admirable—I think that the work that you are doing is absolutely brilliant—how can we ensure that the people in my region of north Wales, to be parochial, can be more engaged? Do you think that you have done enough so far and, if not, is it a matter of funding or is it part of your plan? You will be trying to exhibit to everyone, but not everyone can physically access the museum; that is one of my prime concerns.
[79] Mr Houlihan: The issue that you touched on is, in some sense, a national issue requiring a national approach. Certainly, with some of the more successful projects, particularly with the partnerships, we will be able to bring different aspects of the heritage together through the virtual museum.
[80] There is a long-term process to be gone through here, because you have to build on what is successful and discard what is not successful. The virtual museum is one strand to this. It would be true to say that museums have a natural disinclination against the virtual, because they are about the real and the frisson that people get from being in proximity to a painting painted by Van Gogh the week before he shot himself—that is apart from the art. So, there is that sort of frisson, but we recognise that there is an interesting debate to be had about the role of the real in a virtual world and I think that museums will go from strength to strength because they are the real in a virtual world.
[81] However, to answer your question, I think that we need national solutions to some of these technical issues that are inevitably generated by how you bring these collections into people’s homes, lives, schools and so on. We clearly have not yet bottomed that out and we feel that we would want to work with others on this, because it is partially a resource issue and partly down to the rapid change of technology, although I think that one can begin to discern certain directions there. I have indicated that we can use the virtual to allow people who come to the museum to download things and so on. Work is being done by Cadw on virtual tours, which are part of that same area. Again, global positioning system technology is interesting in terms of showing what objects, potentially, we hold that come from your village. So, it is that sort of thing. We have to continue to develop this area. A percentage of our resources have to be allocated towards doing that. The big worry is whether it becomes an increasing percentage, because of the nature of the technology and the possibilities that are out there.
[82] Eleanor Burnham: In that regard then, working closely with the education system and the curriculum is part and parcel of what you are about, because that then becomes a circle, does it not?
[83] Mr Houlihan: Yes, and we must be alert to the changes that are coming in, in relation to the curriculum in Wales, and what the implications of those changes are for the museum. We have already started to grapple with that. [84] To mention the partnership projects again, those are about bringing the real to different parts of Wales and about longer-term investment. We need to have a discussion with partners about the future of the partnership: it is about objects, but it is also about training and spreading skills around. So, that will involve working with sector skills training. The whole thing is about partnership in the future and enabling museums and galleries to, in effect, be a part of the national scene, if you like. We are already breaking the back of the issues in relation to collection care and security and so on, so let us raise some standards in other areas and consider how we can all work together to raise those standards and bring the collections to the people of Wales.
[85] Mr Loveluck: We are rapidly reaching a position whereby the national collections are not confined within our seven museums. They are being shared around 20 or so venues in Wales.
[86] Mr Gwyn: Just to add to what Paul said, the recreations archaeological exhibition, which was held from September to December 2005, resulted in a 245 per cent increase in the visits to Wrexham County Borough Museum. So, it is working.
[87] Rosemary Butler: It is interesting with percentages. You said 245 per cent, but there might have been only three people visiting in the first place, so I would like to know numbers at some point if you are going to give percentages.
[88] Mr Gwyn: About 12,000 people went to see the exhibition.
[89] Rosemary Butler: That is excellent.
[90] Lisa Francis: I want to talk about the display of art in Wales. You gave us a very interesting presentation in June with Peter Tyndall. You talked about the need to create a contemporary arts base that would not be based on existing collections, but which would reflect existing artistic practice in Wales and stimulate younger artists and newer work. You also mentioned that the top floor of the National Museum would become a museum for art rather than an art gallery. How is work on that progressing? Has there been any further movement since June?
[91] Mr Houlihan: On the museum of art, the scaffolding is going up, the paintings are down, and that work will start to unfold next year with the reopening of the east-wing galleries. We will have the Davies sisters’ new exhibition in the centre block galleries—if you are familiar with the geography of the museum. The west wing—the next gallery—will then be stripped out of archaeology. We can display certain types of works of art in that gallery that do not require high- quality environmental conditions during this time.
[92] However, we have a funding shortfall of £2.5 million on that project, hence our work with Christie’s and so on to generate funds. We are talking to various trusts and other bodies to add that together, and we are optimistic that, in 2009, the whole of the top floor will be given over to art. That gives a certain logic and intellectual integrity to the building, but it does not enable us to display the full range of the museum’s collections, and that needs to be addressed in the feasibility study that I mentioned earlier. [93] The study essentially has two strands. One is to look at the options in relation to creating a national gallery of art, which is a major capital project with a 10 to 15-year timescale. There is also a contemporary arts base reflecting art practice in Wales, as opposed to the collections. The national gallery of art, which is collections-based really, would have within it all of the facilities that one would expect of a national art gallery. It would include space for travelling international exhibitions, which we cannot currently bring to Wales because we lack the space. It would give us the flexibility that we need. There is a capacity-building issue in relation to that, because, despite its output, our art department, curatorially, is very small.
[94] If you consider the size of any national art gallery, you will see that we need to build expertise. We do not have an expert on French nineteenth-century art, and yet we have one of the world’s leading collections. So, we need to build capacity, because it is not just about pictures on walls; it is about reputation, knowledge and developing information and research for the future.
[95] Lisa Francis: May I ask, in respect of the feasibility study—
[96] Rosemary Butler: Okay, but I am conscious that we will have to run over on this item.
[97] Lisa Francis: I just wondered what the timescale for the study was.
[98] Mr Houlihan: The study is being led by the culture department, and the view is that a steering committee will be created—it has to go out to tender and so on. The hope is that, come next spring or early summer, the findings from the study will be available.
9.50 a.m.
[99] Denise Idris Jones: Thank you for that, Michael. You have explained how you are trying to develop interest in exhibitions among newer audiences, especially younger audiences, and I am aware of how Bangor Museum works closely with Communities First areas in the area, especially Maesgeirchen, and brings young people into the museum, as does Oriel Mostyn in Llandudno. Younger audiences are now far more aware of art; I opened the new Philip Stanton gallery in Llanfairfechan last Friday, which was very exciting, and many young people were showing their work there. As you decided on your programme for the coming year, what public consciousness issues have influenced the themes?
[100] Mr Houlihan: We are guided by a number of things. Given the long-term planning cycle in relation to putting on exhibitions, you are locked into things on a two to three-year scale. So, there are some elements, such as repairing the roof of the art gallery, which are essential drivers. We have been planning that for three years. As an example of how we have changed in terms of responding to the public, when we were developing the vision 15 months ago, we did a major piece of consultation in relation to what the public wanted to see in our galleries. We received over 1,000 replies to that piece of work, so we have really begun to think about what we are doing. [101] Two key areas that emerged are certain themes from history, in particular the first and second world wars, and religion, and also the whole question of Welsh identity. An example of the way in which we have responded to the latter is with the Perthyn gallery in St Fagan’s, which is an ideal location for addressing the whole question of identity. We have responded to people saying, ‘We would like to be involved with you as a museum in choosing objects that we think are important, and which are important to us today’, so that is why we are having a community-curated section within the museum. Last year, we responded to the second world war thing rapidly, with events at St Fagan’s looking at the home front. In the longer term, we are planning for 2014, which is the hundredth anniversary of the outbreak of the First World War.
[102] The Davies sisters’ collection, and the way in which we are displaying it is a response to the public saying ‘Who were the Davies sisters—what is all that about?’, so we are emphasising that aspect. So, we are already beginning to respond to a number of these things. We are constantly looking at how we can adapt our programme to that type of response. As Paul has just pointed out to me, the slave trade is another example of how we are responding to the UK bicentenary, but also reflecting on the whole question of the slave trade. We are also taking a deeper look at it in relation to slavery in archaeological times in Wales.
[103] Mr Loveluck: Last year, we made it clear that it was Welsh copper and cannonballs that won Trafalgar. [Laughter.]
[104] Owen John Thomas: Mae’r cynllun ar Owen John Thomas: The plan for 2007 is gyfer 2007 yn ddiddorol, ac mae’n mynd allan i interesting, and it goes out to places such as leoedd fel Caerllion, Bodelwyddan, Tyddewi a, Caerleon, Bodelwyddan, St Davids and, gobeithio, i ogledd-orllewin Cymru hefyd. Mae hopefully, also to north-west Wales. We have llawer o bethau ar drothwy ein drws yng so many things on our doorstep in Cardiff, so Nghaerdydd beth bynnag, felly nid oes cwyn we have no complaint about that. Looking back am hynny. Wrth edrych yn ôl ar 2005-06, a at 2005-06, will you expand on the new wnewch chi ehangu ar y trefniadau a’r arrangements and developments that will datblygiadau newydd a fydd yn galluogi’r enable the public to see the museum’s treasures cyhoedd i weld trysorau’r amgueddfa yn directly or on the net? uniongyrchol neu ar y we?
[105] A ydych yn gwneud unrhyw beth gydag Are you doing anything with local museums in amgueddfeydd lleol mewn lleoedd fel y places such as Rhondda and Merthyr, where Rhondda a Merthyr, lle mae potensial enfawr i there is enormous potential for development ddatblygu o ystyried hanes diddorol a chyffrous considering the interesting and exciting history lleoedd o’r fath? of such places? [106] Mr Gwyn: Yn ystod y flwyddyn, bu Mr Gwyn: During the year, there have been a nifer o brosiectau lle yr ydym wedi cydweithio number of projects where we have collaborated ag amgueddfeydd ar draws Cymru—yn y with museums across Wales—in north Wales, gogledd, ac, er enghraifft, yng Nghaerfyrddin, and, for example in Carmarthen, where there lle cafwyd arddangosfa ar ddinosoriaid. Mae was an exhibition on dinosaurs. There are full manylion llawn yn yr adroddiad blynyddol. Nid details in the report. I do not know whether you wyf yn siwr os ydych am imi fynd i mewn i want me to go into detail, but it is important fanylion, ond mae’n bwysig ein bod ni’n parhau that we also continue with such work in 2007. i wneud y math hwn o waith yn 2007 hefyd.
[107] Owen John Thomas: Yr oeddwn yn Owen John Thomas: I was asking mainly gofyn yn bennaf am y datblygiad mewn about the development in arrangements for trefniadau i sicrhau cyfleoedd i bobl i weld securing more opportunities for the public to pethau, naill ai drwy fynd â’r trysorau atynt, view things, either by taking the treasures to drwy ddefnyddio’r we neu drwy ymweld â them, by using the internet, or by visiting Chaerdydd. Hynny yw, beth sydd wedi Cardiff. That is, what has happened to promote digwydd i hyrwyddo’r broses honno, oherwydd that process, because I know that it happens? gwn ei fod yn digwydd? Mae mwy a mwy o More and more people are attracted to the bobl yn cael eu denu at yr amgueddfeydd a museums and they can also look on the internet gallant hefyd edrych ar y we ac ymweld â and can go to see treasures locally that have thrysorau’n lleol sydd wedi cael eu symud yno been moved there from Cardiff or from o Gaerdydd neu o Nantgarw, ac yn y blaen. Yr Nantgarw, and so on. I want to know what has wyf am wybod beth sydd wedi digwydd yn happened during 2006 to develop that process. ystod 2006 i ddatblygu’r broses honno. Mae’n It is important that the museum goes to the bwysig bod yr amgueddfa’n mynd at y bobl, yn people, instead of people having to travel from lle fod yn rhaid i bobl deithio o Gaergybi, er Holyhead, for example, down to Cardiff. enghraifft, i lawr i Gaerdydd.
[108] Mr Gwyn: Y peth pwysicaf o ran Mr Gwyn: The most important factor in terms gwneud y math hwnnw o waith yw’r cyfres o of undertaking such work is the series of gyfarfodydd yr ydym wedi cynnal. Yn ogystal â meetings that we have held. As well as an open diwrnod agored yn Abertawe ym mis Hydref, day in Swansea in October, we held four other yr ydym wedi cynnal pedwar digwyddiad arall, events, where we invited people in to speak to lle y gwnaethom wahodd pobl i ddod i siarad â us about what to do with the historical ni ynglyn â’r hyn i’w wneud gyda’r casgliadau collections and the scientific collections, and so hanes, y casgliadau gwyddonol, ac yn y blaen. on. That work led to reports that are now being Gwnaeth y gwaith hwnnw arwain at considered in terms of how we can drive this adroddiadau sydd yn awr yn cael eu hystyried process forward during 2007 and beyond. That ynglyn â sut i yrru’r broses ymlaen yn ystod is the most important work that we have done, 2007 a thu hwnt. Dyna’r gwaith pwysicaf yr that is, to ask people’s opinions. We can take ydym wedi’i wneud, hynny yw, gofyn am farn collections to different places in Wales, with 14 pobl. Yr ydym yn gallu mynd â’r casgliadau i different museums, but that is difficult with wahanol leoedd yng Nghymru, gyda 14 o some local museums, because you must look at wahanol amgueddfeydd, ond mae hynny yn the environmental and security aspects. The anodd o ran rhai amgueddfeydd lleol oherwydd most important thing is to ask people how they mae’n rhaid ystyried yr amgylchiadau wish to use our collections, and that has to go amgylcheddol a diogelwch. Y peth pwysicaf hand in hand with our ability to take specific yw gofyn i bobl sut y maent am ddefnyddio’r objects to local museums. casgliadau, a rhaid i hynny ddigwydd ochr yn ochr â’n gallu i fynd â phethau penodol i amgueddfeydd lleol.
[109] Owen John Thomas: Nid oes neb wedi Owen John Thomas: No-one has answered my ateb ar fy mhwynt am Ferthyr, a chanolfan yn y point about Merthyr, and a centre in the Rhondda. A yw’r amgueddfa wedi gwneud Rhondda. Is the museum doing anything to rhywbeth i roi hwb i lleoedd felly? Oes promote such places? Is there a link or any cysylltiad neu drefn rhyngoch ag arrangement between yourselves and museums amgueddfeydd megis y rhai ym Merthyr a’r such as the one in Merthyr and in the Rhondda? Rhondda? Os felly, ym mha ffordd ydych chi’n If so, in what ways are you promoting them? I rhoi hwb iddynt? Credaf fod y potensial yn think that the potential is massive, and the enfawr ac mae cyfraniad yr ardaloedd hynny i contribution of those areas to the industry and ddiwydiant ac economi Cymru a’r byd dros y economy of Wales and the world over the last ganrif ddiwethaf a mwy yn hollbwysig, a century and more is crucial, and I am surprised synnaf nad ydym yn rhoi mwy i mewn i’r that we are not putting more into those areas. ardaloedd hynny. Oes rôl gennych i helpu Do you have a role in assisting such places? lleoedd felly?
[110] Mr Houlihan: There are two points on that. The first is in relation to the first part of your question, in that one of the key achievements last year was Cyfoeth Cymru Gyfan, which was the art strand of our partnership programme. That involved working with Bodelwyddan castle, Oriel Mostyn, the Glyn Vivian Art Gallery, Rhuthun Craft Centre and Oriel Davies Gallery in Newtown. Therefore, those were new projects, with 71,000 people visiting those sites and a further 4,000 engaged in ancillary activities such as educational activities. What is fundamentally important about that is that it is taking the art collection, particularly, which is one of the real treasures of Wales, to those locations. Again, it is a theme that we have reflected in the coming year.
[111] With regard to the second point, when the National Waterfront Museum opened we were particularly conscious of comments from a number of museums, both commercial and local government museums operating in that area, which felt that they might suffer a downturn in visitor numbers because of the impact of the museum in Swansea. However, we have worked to promote those sites—certainly at Swansea—to say, ‘These other locations are available and they tell a further story’. We have not developed any specific partnerships in the areas that you describe, although we work with some of the museums in terms of curatorial advice, loans, and so on, outwith the partnership scheme. However, this is what I was saying earlier about the partnership project—it is in a developing stage, and it is about expansion, subject to resources, and working with a variety of different bodies, organisations and museums across the board.
10.00 a.m. [112] Mr Loveluck: There are also one or two other aspects. We are heavily committed to the Herian project in south Wales; I know something about that, because I chaired it for four years. It is a partnership of all the local authorities in south Wales, promoting the industrial heritage of all. The museum, in three of its more significant areas—St Fagan’s, Swansea and Big Pit—has information points on the other facilities relating to our industrial heritage, and so on, in the vicinity. Therefore, we are part and parcel of that general initiative to enhance the knowledge of our past.
[113] Furthermore, to demonstrate our sensitivity to the possible adverse impact of our operations on others, in Swansea, we advertise the National Showcaves Centre for Wales at Dan-yr-Ogof, which is a site of special scientific interest, as well as the Gower Heritage Centre. So, we are particularly sensitive on that front.
[114] Mr Houlihan: There is also the Rhondda Heritage Park.
[115] Owen John Thomas: A ydych yn gweld Owen John Thomas: Do you see possibilities posibiliadau o ran datblygiadau pellach yn y of further developments in the partnerships partneriaethau rhyngoch â lleoedd fel Merthyr between yourselves and places such as Merthyr Tudful a’r Rhondda? Os ydynt am ddatblygu’r Tydfil and Rhondda? If they want to develop lleoedd hyn, maent yn mynd ati ar eu pennau eu these places, they are doing it in isolation, while hunain, tra bo arbenigedd ar gael yn yr you have the expertise in the national museum amgueddfa genedlaethol a all fod o gymorth that could be of huge assistance, and, mawr, ac, yn economaidd, yn rhatach na chael economically, cheaper than getting someone rhywun mewn o’r tu allan i roi cyngor iddynt. from outside to give them advice.
[116] Mr Gwyn: Mae’r cymorth curadurol yn Mr Gwyn: The curatorial advice is provided cael ei roi yn ddyddiol i amgueddfeydd lleol. daily to local museums. What is difficult is to Yr hyn sy’n anodd yw cytuno yn sydyn i roi agree without notice to lend collections to local casgliadau ar fenthyg i amgueddfeydd lleol os museums if they do not have the right settings. nad oes ganddynt yr amgylchiadau cywir.
[117] Ar y Cymoedd, yn ystod y flwyddyn On the Valleys, during the past year, we have ddiwethaf, bu inni weithio, drwy’r cynllun, Ar worked, through the On Common Ground Dir Cyffredin, gyda 400 o bobl ifanc yng project, with 400 young people in Caerphilly, Nghaerffili, Tor-faen, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Torfaen, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Swansea and Abertawe a Cheredigion. Felly, yr ydym yn Ceredigion. Therefore, we are trying to reach ceisio estyn allan drwy arbenigedd, a thrwy out through expertise, and through gydweithio â phobl. Mae’r gallu i gytuno i bob collaborating with people. The ability to agree cais i fynd â chasgliadau ar hyd a lled Cymru to each request to take collections to all parts of yn cael ei gyfyngu gan yr hyn sydd ar gael yn Wales is limited by what is available in local yr amgueddfa leol, o ran yr amgylchedd a museums, in terms of environment and security. diogelwch. [118] Lisa Francis: You mentioned the Herian project, Paul. How are things progressing in relation to the tourism culture strategy that was drawn up by the former Wales Tourist Board in 2003? In many ways, I do not believe that that strategy plumbed the real depths of what we have to offer in Wales. Is there any difference, now that the Wales Tourist Board is no more, and has been brought into the Government, and there is a new department to communicate with? How are things progressing?
[119] Mr Loveluck: It is extremely important that there continues to be a strong focus on culture as an element in our tourism strategy, and I hope that it will re-emerge. We may have lost some clarity on that, but it is important, and the museum wants to see an emphasis on that, because it fits in so harmoniously with our general objectives. Once the settling down process is over, we hope to see that strong identification of the importance of cultural tourism re-emerging.
[120] Rosemary Butler: Thank you. It has been an interesting presentation and discussion this morning; we could spend a whole morning with you, and a whole morning with the library, but that cannot be done. What is happening at the National Museum Wales is phenomenal. The gallery in Cardiff, in particular, and Swansea and the slate museum are on a par with any European institution. As a whole, you are becoming one of the true museums of Europe, which is fantastic. You are not just reaching outside Wales, you are reaching the people of Wales, which is much appreciated by the Members. So, we thank your council for the work that you do. It is excellent.
[121] On your marine habitat study, how did that link into the Countryside Council for Wales’s work and the environmental interests? Can you give a short answer on that one?
[122] Mr Loveluck: We are providing some of the fundamental research work for the countryside council and maritime local authorities to undertake their responsibilities under the European Union environmental legislation for the management of our marine habitats. So, we work under contract for them, because we have the expertise on the marine side. We are a fundamentally important part of enabling Wales to discharge its responsibilities to the European Union.
[123] Rosemary Butler: On Owen John’s point, about working with other museums, the work that you do as a national museum is central to the museums community in Wales, which is unusual. Other national museums just occasionally assist, but you are part of the central core of the resource for other museums, and I hope that that continues. We do not have time to go into this this morning, but it would be helpful if you could put in writing any issues that are unlikely to be resolved during the lifetime of this Assembly that you would like us to include in our legacy document. We will hand over a legacy document, when this committee comes to an end, for future Assembly Members, so that would be helpful. Can you do it in an A4 format? We do not want an encyclopaedia. [Laughter.]
[124] Mr Loveluck: Right-oh.
[125] Eleanor Burnham: Is it possible to have a handout of Michael’s vision for next year?
[126] Rosemary Butler: Is that your diary for next year, Michael? If there is a handout, that would be helpful. Thank you. 10.08 a.m.
Adroddiad Blynyddol i’r Pwyllgor gan Lyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru Annual Report to Committee from National Library of Wales
[127] Rosemary Butler: Good morning and welcome to the representatives of the National Library of Wales. I hope that you enjoyed the first presentation—we certainly did. We have the library’s president with us; welcome, Brinley. Can you introduce your team—it is only you and Andrew? If you formally introduce yourselves and make a presentation, I will then open the session up again for questions from Members.
[128] Dr Jones: Braint i mi, bob amser, yw Dr Jones: It is always a privilege for me to cael y pleser o frolio am lwyddiant ysgubol y have the pleasure of boasting about the great llyfrgell genedlaethol. Mae’r llecyn cysegredig successes of the national library. That sacred hwnnw ar un ffrynt yn wynebu’r môr a’r byd spot faces the sea and the wider world on the mawr, a’r ffenestri eraill yn mynwesu’r Gymru one front while the other windows embrace fodern. Hyfrydwch yw cael y cyfle hwn i contemporary Wales. It is a joy to have the grybwyll peth o’n gwasanaeth a diolch o galon opportunity to discuss some of our services and am gefnogaeth Llywodraeth Gymru ac am y to give heartfelt thanks to the Government of diddordeb a gymer y Gweinidog a’r Wales for its support and for the interest that swyddogion yn ein gwaith. the Minister and the officials take in our work.
[129] I will make an introduction and then pass over to Andrew. I am keeping to my notes, because I tend to wander—with my Rhondda background I am likely to do so. The year that has passed has witnessed an outstanding example of the library’s service to the people of Wales and the wider world. I have always thought that ‘library’ is something of an understatement for our institution. It really is the custodian of the mind of Wales, in particular in all its manifestations of record, and it also provides a gloss on the mind of the world. Excuse me for detailing these, but I think that it is worth reminding ourselves that its 5 million books, 40,000 manuscripts, 4 million deeds and documents, 750,000 photographs and so on, as well as its unique collection of sound and moving images and remarkable archive of visual representations, are our particular credentials at the national library.
10.10 a.m.
[130] Now, with the advance of technology and the support of Government, we are able to open our doors wider and wider still. Indeed, we have called the annual report, which you have seen—if you have not, you will have a copy of it—’Broadening Horizons: Lledu’r Gorwelion’. The year past, with its nearly 100,000 visitors, 331 group visits and 100 school group visits, indicates a measure of our success. Last year saw a series of outstanding exhibitions, lectures, seminars, important acquisitions to our collections and our continuing efforts to widen access and to inform. Memorable in my mind—I could, of course, list several—is the exhibition of photographs taken by the American, Chuck Rapoport, in the weeks following the Aberfan disaster. Memorable for me, too, is our very successful liaison with the Evan Davis family in Ohio, whose members have generously supported our project of making available on the world wide web digital images of all the material relevant to Wales in Ohio housed in the national library. [131] We have observed the targets in the Minister’s remit letter of 2005-06, procuring, for example, a new computer system for managing the collections, and doing so in close collaboration with the Welsh Assembly Government and CyMAL. We have revised our digitisation strategy, and we have witnessed a dramatic interest in web visits, with some 153,000 by March. We have examined, with National Museum Wales and the Arts Council of Wales, the potential for a national digital gallery of the visual arts. The year, as you will all know, saw the climax of deliberations concerning governance. The revised royal charter has dispensed with the court, and from now on the library is subject to a board of 15 members and trustees.
[132] Now, Chair, we embark on an ambitious centenary programme. It was on 19 March 1907 that we received our royal charter. We are mindful that such commemorations can touch nerves, so we are busy working on fundraising possibilities. Together with National Museum Wales, as you heard earlier, we are presenting the eisteddfod crown in 2007, and the library is sponsoring the chairing ceremony at the Urdd national eisteddfod. We are producing a centenary volume; the English text will be by Trevor Fishlock, and the Welsh volume will not be a translation, but a similar kind of treatment by Mererid Hopwood. There will be radio and television programmes to mark our centenary, and we have recorded some of those already.
[133] The library building will be highlighted physically, and our gardens will receive what I like to call a centenary touch. There will be receptions, lectures, exhibitions and a major film festival in October in collaboration with the Aberystwyth Arts Centre. Gwyneth Lewis, former national poet, is composing greetings which we will convey to the libraries of the world. I think that that is a very nice gesture, and an interesting one. So, our legend, Braint Pob Gwybodaeth—All Knowledge is Privilege, will ring through the year as a privilege for the whole people of Wales. There was an extremely interesting exhibition of art work by deprived people earlier this year, as we wanted this privilege to be extended to the whole of the people of Wales and, of course, the world beyond.
[134] I know, if I may just end in fairly personal terms, that we can depend on your support and, if I may say so, your ambassadorial talents—I am always delighted, when we visit other parts of Wales, to see Assembly Members present—in our efforts to make Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru visible and accessible to people and to ensure that it is acknowledged for what it is, namely one of the great libraries of the world.
[135] You may have seen a two-page-spread supplement in yesterday’s Western Mail in which my friend and colleague, Andrew Green, national librarian, explains how new technology is making the library’s collections accessible to all. I have brought him in person to tell you all about it, but if you have not seen the supplement, Chair, I have purchased a copy—when I was a boy in Pen-y- graig in the Rhondda, I always wanted to be a newspaper boy. I have brought some spare copies of the supplement for you to see. It is my pleasure, with your permission, to invite Andrew to carry on with the story.
[136] Rosemary Butler: Thank you very much. I hope that you never achieve your ambition to be a paper boy; I think that the library needs you more.
[137] Mr Green: I know that time is short and that you need to ask us questions, so I will speak for five minutes, starting in English and finishing in Welsh. I have a very brief slideshow. [138] First, I start with two propositions, which you might or might not agree with—this is the basis for what I am going to say. The first is that knowledge and information—the word ‘gwybodaeth’ covers both in Welsh—are the most important intellectual, social and economic assets of this new century. Just to take an example from the economic world, just two weeks ago, in my home town, the industrial company Alcoa decided to close its factory and sack 300 workers. That is another example of the end of the old economy. The same week, I read that Google, a company that did not exist eight years ago, is now worth $155 billion.
[139] The second proposition, which, again, you might or might not agree with, is that knowledge is increasingly digital knowledge. We have books, newspapers, magazines, and analogue television and radio, for the time being, but most published information is now digital and it starts as digital. It is what people use; if you do not believe me, ask your children or your grandchildren—anyone under 15 years of age. This is the world that we are trying to contend with and to master. Our aim, which I hope is also your aim, is for us to reach more people, not only in Wales, but outside Wales. Mike Houlihan said that museums are disinclined to deal with the virtual. I think that that is one of the big differences between museums and libraries—our library does not share that disinclination.
[140] I will say a little bit about our future plans, starting with what we are doing at present. I will not say a lot about these, but they are just examples of the ways in which we are currently trying to get to grips with this new world in the library. As Brinley said, we are in the middle of a very difficult process of implementing a new computer system. It is a very ambitious project, which will provide a one-stop shop, essentially, to anyone who wants to find out about what we have in the library. It will also, for the first time, give access and a systematic basis to our electronic holdings; so, that is real information, not just pointers to information. We have been very loath, up until now, to say when this will be available to the public, but we are now confident that it will be up and working in January.
[141] I will not say a lot about digitisation because you kindly invited Leith Haarhoff and me to come here, not very long ago, to talk about that. However, I am very pleased to say that we are now making preparations to implement the major project on modern Welsh journals that I mentioned last time—a £1 million project over two years to basically digitise all of the important Welsh journals in English and Welsh from 1900 to the present. So, that is going ahead in January with the support of the Assembly, including the culture department, and it is part of a much larger programme, the theatre of memory, which I mentioned last time.
[142] Legal deposit is another important area. Our partnership with the British Library, which I think is mentioned in the annual report, is now up and running. That partnership will be responsible for the technical infrastructure as far as we are concerned, and slow but sure progress is being made towards implementing the Act legally. Finally, the new website, which is a much more alive kind of website than the current non-aesthetic one, will be available by March next year.
10.20 a.m.
[143] I will now move on rapidly to another thing that will happen next year, namely our revision of the library strategy. [144] Rhwng mis Ebrill 2007 a diwedd y Between April 2007 and the end of the year, we flwyddyn, byddwn yn cynnal adolygiad will hold a comprehensive review of the cynhwysfawr o gyfeiriad strategol y llyfrgell yn library’s future strategic direction. This is the y dyfodol. Dyma’r ail dro inni wneud hynny; yr second time that we have done that; the first oedd y tro cyntaf yn 1999-2000. Felly, mae was in 1999-2000. Therefore, it is several years nifer o flynyddoedd ers inni wneud hyn. Mae’n since we have done it. It is timely because of amserol oherwydd y canmlwyddiant a’r bwrdd the centenary and the library’s new board and a’r siarter newydd sydd gan y llyfrgell, ac charter, and because we also need a new oherwydd ein bod eisiau cynllun corfforaethol corporate plan by the year after next. newydd erbyn y flwyddyn ar ôl nesaf.
[145] Yr ydym yn awr yn cynllunio sut mae We are now planning how to conduct this cynnal yr adolygiad hwn. Yr ydym yn gobeithio review. We hope to use additional methods that defnyddio dulliau ychwanegol newydd nad were not available to us in 1999. There will be oeddynt ar gael inni yn 1999. Bydd papur a consultation paper and discussion sessions, ymgynghorol a sesiynau trafod, yn fewnol a internally and with the public, and we hope to gyda’r cyhoedd, ac yr ydym yn gobeithio include all kinds of people from outside, not cynnwys pob math o bobl o’r tu allan, nid yn only staff members and the board, but outside unig aelodau o’r staff a’r bwrdd, ond cyrff ac bodies and individuals, library users and people unigolion o’r tu allan, pobl sy’n defnyddio’r who do not use libraries. We particularly want llyfrgell a phobl nad ydynt yn ei ddefnyddio. Yr your input as Assembly Members and input ydym am gael eich mewnbwn chi yn enwedig from your constituents. fel Aelodau o’r Cynulliad a mewnbwn y bobl sy’n byw yn eich etholaethau.
[146] Yr ydym yn dechrau paratoi ar gyfer y We are starting to prepare for the public part of rhan gyhoeddus o’r adolygiad hwn. Hoffwn this consultation. I will present you with some gyflwyno rhai o’r cwestiynau neu gynlluniau of the possible questions and plans that will be posibl a fydd yn y papur ymgynghorol a rhai in the consultation paper and some of the issues o’r materion sy’n wynebu’r llyfrgell dros y pum facing the library over the ensuing five years. mlynedd nesaf. Unwaith eto, yr wyf yn sôn am Again, I am talking about digitisation. Will it be ddigido. A fydd yn bosibl uwchraddio lefel y possible to upgrade the level of activities that gweithgareddau sydd gennym o ran digido yn y we have on digitisation in the future? We are dyfodol? Yr ydym yn gweithio’n galed iawn ar working very hard on that at present. hyn o bryd i wneud hynny.
[147] A ydym yn sôn yn unig am gasgliadau yn Are we talking only about collections in the y dyfodol neu a ydym yn sôn mwy am future or are we talking more about content? gynnwys? Eto, yr wyf yn cyfeirio at y byd Again, I am referring to the digital world. Will digidol. A fydd yn bosibl inni gynnig ystod it will be possible for us to offer a much wider llawer ehangach o gynnwys digidol, range of digital, born-digital and commercial digidanedig—sef cynnwys sy’n dechrau’n content for people throughout Wales? If so, can ddigidol—a masnachol i bobl drwy Gymru? Os we extend our library membership from the felly, a allwn estyn aelodaeth y llyfrgell o’r thousands that we have at present to the whole miloedd sydd gennym ar hyn o bryd i holl population of Wales? Is that realistic? boblogaeth Cymru? A yw hynny’n realistig? [148] Yr ydym hefyd yn archif, ac yn archif We are also an archive, and now a digital ddigidol erbyn hyn. A allem fod yn storfa ar ran archive. Could we be a repository for other cyrff cyhoeddus eraill ac efallai’r sector preifat public organisations and perhaps also for the hefyd—storfa a allai warantu parhad cofnodion, private sector—a repository that could cofnodion y Cynulliad hyd yn oed, yn y guarantee the survival of records, even dyfodol? Assembly records, in the future?
[149] Un o’r gweithgareddau mwyaf One of our most successful activities is that of llwyddiannus yn y llyfrgell yw’r gwasanaeth the education service. Only two people in the addysg. Dim ond dau berson yn y llyfrgell sy’n library provide that service at present, but it has darparu’r gwasanaeth hwnnw ar hyn o bryd, been exceptionally successful. How can we ond mae wedi bod yn hynod o lwyddiannus. extend that role in future? We appeal, for Sut y gallwn estyn y gweithgaredd hwnnw yn y example, to schoolchildren who live locally, but dyfodol? Yr ydym yn apelio, er enghraifft, at how do we reach people, including blant ysgol sy’n byw yn lleol, ond sut ydym yn schoolchildren, who live elsewhere in Wales? cyrraedd pobl, gan gynnwys plant ysgol, sy’n What role would electronic or other methods byw mewn llefydd eraill yng Nghymru? Beth play in that? fyddai rôl dulliau electronig neu ddulliau eraill yn hynny?
[150] Y cwestiwn olaf yw’r cwestiwn anochel: The final question is the inevitable question: sut yr ydym yn sicrhau adnoddau? Sut y gallwn how do we secure resources? How do we sicrhau adnoddau ychwanegol o ffynonellau secure additional resources from new sources in newydd er mwyn gwireddu’r holl uchelgeisiau order to realise all of our ambitions? How can sydd gennym? Sut y gallwn wasgu mwy o we squeeze more efficiency out of the library’s effeithlonrwydd allan o weithgareddau current activities—the traditional ones—to fund presennol y llyfrgell—y pethau the new ones? Those are only some of the traddodiadol—er mwyn ariannu’r pethau questions. I am sure that there will be more newydd? Dyna rai o’r cwestiynau’n unig. Yr questions on other aspects of the library’s work wyf yn siwr y bydd mwy o gwestiynau am and we hope to publish, in the consultation agweddau eraill ar waith y llyfrgell a paper, a list of those issues and to ask questions gobeithiwn gyhoeddi, yn y papur ymgynghorol, of everyone. restr o’r materion hynny a gofyn cwestiynau i bawb.
[151] Gobeithiwn y daw digonedd o gynlluniau We hope that plenty of exciting and valuable cyffrous a gwerthfawr o adolygiad y flwyddyn plans will emerge from next year’s review to nesaf i wneud yn siwr bod y llyfrgell yn ensure that the library makes a key contribution gwneud cyfraniad allweddol i fywyd pobl to the lives of the people of Wales in the years Cymru yn y blynyddoedd i ddod. to come. [152] Dr Jones: Chair, I will butt in with one point, if I may. He is not prepared to brag, but I was brought up as a Baptist, so I am prepared to do that kind of thing. He mentioned staff and I am delighted to tell you that a week ago today, we were examined for Investors in People status—this may not yet be public knowledge, but I think that it is perfectly proper for me to mention it—and we are going to be awarded again. The person who carried out the report spoke to me and said how delighted he was with the standard of staffing in the library. It reminds me of a letter that I received from a Cambridge nun, only a month ago—Cambridge nuns do not write very often—and in it she said that of all the libraries that she had visited, the courtesy of the staff of the national library, their willingness to help, and the information that they supplied was unparalleled. I am sorry to brag, but I think that it is only fair for this chap and his colleagues to hear me say that.
[153] Rosemary Butler: I think that you have stunned us into silence by mentioning a letter from a nun from Cambridge. Could I ask you both to line yourselves up with the microphones and speak into them? That would be quite helpful; thank you very much for that. I have a list of speakers. Denise, did you want to come in?
[154] Denise Idris Jones: Diolch, Gadeirydd, a Denise Idris Jones: Thank you, Chair, and diolch i chi am bopeth yr ydym wedi ei glywed y thank you for everything that we have heard bore yma. Mae’n wych. this morning. It is wonderful.
[155] I will turn to English now. How does the strategy develop the National Library of Wales’s services? How are demands on the National Library of Wales’s services changing? How are you working with partners and developing partnerships in Wales? What are you doing to promote Wales internationally? There were a few questions for you there. Brief answers would be fine.
[156] Rosemary Butler: I think that I counted four questions.
[157] Mr Green: They are big questions, are they not? I will start with the changes in demand and expectations. It is undoubtedly true that expectations are changing rapidly, partly as a result of socio-economic and educational trends outside the library, but also in response to what we do. In other words, people’s expectations of us change because of what we do. Perhaps I should give some examples because we cannot really cover the whole field. To go back to things digital, we are noticing that people’s information-seeking behaviour—what people do when they come to the library—is now changing very fast and radically. Young people in particular do not use print so much and they expect things to be available to them instantly, online. If you have any relatives under the age of 15, you will know that that is true. That makes us think hard when we are planning not only the digital services, but traditional services—for example, when we are trying to renew our traditional services, such as the reading rooms. What do we do, given those long-term trends? That is one example of how things are moving so rapidly and we have to be able to react quickly. I think that your expectations of us are also changing, so we have to react to those as well. We have to be much more aware that we are not dealing with our traditional audience or a local audience; we have to deal with a national audience and get to everyone, not just the traditional readership and the traditional research base of the library. Those are two examples of how we really need to change rapidly in response to people’s expectations.
10.30 a.m. [158] You asked about partnerships; the library has been involved in partnerships for many years. They are nothing new and there is really almost nothing in Beecham, for example, that is new to us. We are used to working in partnership. The coming of CyMAL: Museums Archives and Libraries Wales and its development over the years has given that a new framework and context. We are doing quite a lot as an agent, if you like, for CyMAL at the moment, which is essentially to do with partnering local authorities in particular. We are trying to do a lot of partnering with others in all kinds of areas cognate with the library’s activities and in particular areas of Wales. We talked about the Rhondda earlier in connection with the museum, and we are trying to do the same in connection with the Rhondda valley, for example, and with other less-advantaged areas within Wales. So, partnership will continue to be very important to us.
[159] Dr Jones: I think that it is important to say that the head of the British Library, Lynne Brindley, came down to have lunch with us the week before last. Your connection there is very much stronger than it has ever been, given the whole business of the recent development in copyright and so on.
[160] Mr Green: Yes, partnerships are being made, not only in Wales, but elsewhere. The British Library partnership, which I mentioned earlier, is crucial to us, because we are dependent, to a large extent, on the British Library in connection with legal deposit. There are also international partnerships, and you asked about international connections. We are not a big body and we have to shepherd our resources internationally and be very careful about our links; but we are trying to do what we can internationally. Just to give you some examples, we have a long-standing relationship with the national library in Latvia, which has similar concerns to us, as does Latvia to Wales. For example, as part of the centenary, an exhibition of photographs, taken by our own staff, will be shown in Latvia, in the national library, and will then, hopefully, tour elsewhere. That is one example of what we are doing.
[161] Just to give you another example, a group of Nigerian librarians are coming to visit us in the spring to find out about how we do digitisation. They know that we are a good body—one of the best in the UK on that—so they are coming to find out how we do it, because they are interested in doing the same in the national library in Nigeria. We try to pick and choose our international contacts carefully, because of a lack of resources, but we try our best to be internationally active.
[162] Dr Jones: In addition to that, we send staff from the library elsewhere and to international conferences. For example, Andrew went to Korea, did you not?
[163] Mae ein presenoldeb ar draws y byd yn Our presence throughout the world is of great fuddiol dros ben i’r syniad o weledigaeth benefit to the idea of the National Library of Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru. Wales’s vision.
[164] Eleanor Burnham: Yr wyf yn falch Eleanor Burnham: I am very pleased— iawn—[inaudible.] [inaudible.]
[165] Rosemary Butler: Eleanor, can you turn your microphone on? There is something amiss.
[166] Eleanor Burnham: My light is on. [167] Rosemary Butler: It was not on, but it is now.
[168] Eleanor Burnham: Yr oeddwn yn falch Eleanor Burnham: I was very pleased to be iawn o gael mynd i Ruthun gan fod eich able to go to Rhuthin because your presence presenoldeb yno, i egluro’n union beth yr ydych there to explain exactly what you do at the yn ei wneud yn y llyfrgell, yn wych. Gobeithiaf library was excellent. I hope that you will y byddwch yn parhau i wneud gwaith o’r fath. continue to do such work.
[169] Mae gennyf ddiddordeb yn Archif I have an interest in the National Screen and Genedlaethol Sgrîn a Sain Cymru. Mae ychydig Sound Archive of Wales. There is some o bryder am y ffaith bod Sgrîn Cymru wedi cau. concern about the fact that Sgrîn Cymru has A allwch egluro beth yr ydych yn ei wneud am closed down. Could you explain exactly what hynny? you are doing about that?
[170] Ar ddigido, o ystyried bod eich cyllid On digitisation, given that your funding ceased wedi dod i ben ddiwedd Mawrth, a oes modd i at the end of March, can you find funding to chi ddod o hyd i gyllid er mwyn parhau â continue with that? I think that it is one of the hynny? Credaf ei fod yn un o’r agweddau most important aspects. I have children, and the mwyaf pwysig. Mae gennyf blant, ac mae’r fact that you can use such a platform, perhaps ffaith eich bod yn gallu defnyddio platfform o’r more easily than the museum, is very fath, efallai’n haws na’r amgueddfa, yn bwysig important. How is the process progressing and, iawn. Sut mae’r broses yn mynd yn ei blaen ac if the funding is not available, how can you find os nad yw’r cyllid ar gael, sut y gallwch ddod o alternative funding? hyd iddo?
[171] Mr Green: Mae’n wir bod Sgrîn Cymru Mr Green: It is true that Sgrîn Cymru was wedi dod i ben yn Mawrth 2006, ond y wound up in March 2006, but the original cytundeb gwreiddiol gyda Sgrîn oedd y agreement with Sgrîn was that its materials, byddai’r deunydd, a gaiff ei gadw yn awr yn yr now held in the national archive, would become archif genedlaethol, yn dod yn eiddo i’r the property of the library if something were to llyfrgell pe bai rhywbeth yn digwydd i Sgrîn. happen to Sgrîn. So, there is no question about Felly, nid oes cwestiwn am y deunydd na’i the material and its ownership. The demise of berchnogaeth. Nid yw tranc Sgrîn wedi Sgrîn has not impacted on the archive and its effeithio ar yr archif a’i chynnwys. content.
[172] Dr Jones: Mae pwynt diddorol yn codi Dr Jones: An interesting point arises in talking wrth sôn am fynd â’r llyfrgell y tu allan i about taking the library outside of Aberystwyth. Aberystwyth. Enghraifft dda o hynny yw A good example of that is films. Recently, ffilmiau. Yn ddiweddar, aeth Andrew i Andrew went to Wrexham and I went to Wrecsam ac euthum i Aberteifi i ddangos Cardigan to show historic films which are part ffilmiau hanesyddol sy’n rhan o’n harchif yn y of our archive in the library. Those events were llyfrgell. Bu’r digwyddiadau hynny yn hynod o extremely successful—there were large lwyddiannus—yr oedd cynulleidfaoedd lluosog audiences at both locations, and also in yn y ddau le, ac yng Nghasnewydd o ran Newport. The next event will be in Pen-y-graig, hynny. Bydd y digwyddiad nesaf ym Mhen-y- Minister. graig, Weinidog. [173] Mr Green: O ran digido, yr ydym wedi Mr Green: On digitisation, we have now prif-ffrydio digido o fewn y llyfrgell erbyn hyn, mainstreamed digitisation in the library, so to a felly i raddau helaeth yr ydym yn dibynnu ar large extent we are dependent on Assembly arian y Cynulliad er mwyn cadw digido arferol funding to maintain the routine digitisation i fynd. Ar yr un pryd, yr ydym yn chwilio am programme. At the same time, we are looking arian allanol o ffynonellau eraill mewn rhannau for external funding from other sources in other eraill o’r Cynulliad, ymddiriedolaethau, parts of the Assembly, trusts, charities or from elusennau neu gan unigolion. Yr ydym wedi individuals. We have been extremely successful bod yn hynod lwyddiannus yn ddiweddar recently with the second aspect, but the first gyda’r ail agwedd, ond mae’r agwedd gyntaf yn aspect continues to be essential. That is, it is parhau i fod yn hanfodol. Hynny yw, mae’n important that funding is available to maintain bwysig bod arian ar gael i ddal ati efo’r the service. There are 13 core staff in the library gwasanaeth. Mae 13 o bobl graidd yn y llyfrgell responsible for digitisation, and it is important sy’n gyfrifol am ddigido, ac mae’n bwysig ein that we maintain the service year on year. We bod yn cynnal y gwasanaeth o flwyddyn i have just received a report from Simon Tanner, flwyddyn. Yr ydym newydd gael adroddiad gan one of the foremost experts on digitisation in Simon Tanner, un o’r arbenigwyr mwyaf ar the UK, on the future of the theatre of memory. ddigido yn y Deyrnas Unedig, ar ddyfodol y He is vastly experienced in this area, and he theatre of memory. Mae Simon Tanner yn said that our service in the library is not only brofiadol iawn yn y maes hwn, ac mae’n dweud one of the best in this country, but also in mai ein gwasanaeth yn y llyfrgell yw un o’r Europe and America, which is striking. gwasanaethau gorau nid yn unig yn y wlad hon, Therefore, it is important that we retain the ond hefyd yn Ewrop ac America, sydd yn people and the skills. rhywbeth trawiadol. Felly, mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cadw’r bobl a’r sgiliau.
[174] Val Lloyd: Thank you, Andrew, especially for the update on the digitisation project. Since you were last here, I have bored all of my friends, acquaintances and any organisations that I have visited with the opportunities of the project. In February, the Minister, in his report, spoke of the implementation of the library’s new computer system. It has now been nearly a year, so have you made an assessment of the difference that it has made in your operations?
[175] I have another quick question—I know that the Chair is going to look at me.
[176] Rosemary Butler: No, I am not.
[177] Val Lloyd: I am trying to be quick. You focused, at the Urdd eisteddfod this year, on the artist in residence, Christine Mills. How is that role helping you to promote your activities? Can you enlighten us on that role? [178] Mr Green: The system is not yet live to the public. It is live internally, but not to the public, and I mentioned January as the date that we will hopefully make it live. It is not planned to be available in its totality for a while—there are several phases to the implementation. It will be available to the public in January, and from March it will be available as part of the new website. We will be careful to try to gauge the public reaction quantitively, in terms of the numbers of people that use it, and also qualitatively. We will want to gauge how useful and easy it is to use for people, wherever they may be and whoever they are. So, that will continue as part of the post- implementation process.
[179] Dr Jones: The artist in residence—
[180] Mr Green: It has been a staggering success.
10.40 a.m.
[181] Dr Jones: Absolutely, and we formally opened an extension of the new education section last year. The exhibition of the work by children under the tutelage of Christine Mills is staggering; we have just had one of hands. I used the library long before I became its president and, when I think of my early days there, when I say that you seldom saw children there, the fact is that it would have been awful to have seen children there. [Laughter.] I say that with respect. I have been president for 10 years and when I first went there, I can remember one older member of the council who was a bit concerned about the noise caused by having children around the place.
[182] The whole thing is so well disciplined. My wife was a teacher and took several groups up to the library, and, as you know, Andrew, in the journal of where she taught, there were comments on how much the children had enjoyed their visit. We are training them in having respect for books and the whole business of libraries, and the Christine Mills’s exhibition was absolutely outstanding. It has been an excellent co-operative exercise too with the local authorities, so that has been useful.
[183] Mr Green: We are looking, incidentally, to extend the artist in residence scheme, or rather, not to extend it, but to create another artist in residence, if we can find money from our external sources.
[184] Lisa Francis: As someone whose home town is Aberystwyth, of course I am going to say that the national library is the jewel in our crown and that I am proud of the work that you do. I just want to echo your words about the people who work there. What comes across is that the staff are extremely helpful. That is the feedback that reaches the town, as well, and it is what gives the place the wow factor, because people want to go back there when they receive that level of service. Thank you for that. [185] I want to ask a question about ALARM—not the burglar alarm, but the administrative, legislative and accountable records management project that you run with small and medium-sized enterprises, particularly in Ceredigion. I would be interested to hear a little more about that and what sort of record management it entails. I also want to ask about your current relationship with the culture board, because, essentially, that is an advisory board, not a decision-making body. Does it offer you clear opportunities to develop your activities in Wales, and what is your impression of working with the board? Finally, you mentioned the revised royal charter, that the court had been dispensed with and that there was now a board. I am not quite sure how many members you said there were. Was it 100 or more?
[186] Dr Jones: There are 15 members of the board, but I will answer the point more fully when you have completed the question.
[187] Lisa Francis: That was my final point.
[188] Dr Jones: I am glad that you raised that point. We have 15 members of the board, but to go into the detail, eight are Assembly-sponsored members and seven belong to the library. However, instead of the court, we need to have a kind of ambassadorial—I use that word again—body representing Wales and its interests. So, we are looking at a consultative body, just to ensure that we do not lose touch in any way with the people outside, to which there will be certain statutory appointments, but, in addition, we will be able to employ people with particular expertise that we would find useful for the library. It is a hearing point.
[189] Eleanor Burnham talked about going out, and we would do that again. We found those events so useful, not only to be present at those locations, but to listen to what people said and to take those comments on board.
[190] Mr Green: The new advisory body will have 30 members, half of whom will be stakeholders, namely representatives of bodies with a direct interest in the library. The other 15 will be individuals with an interest in the library, but not necessarily representing anyone but themselves. That is how it is intended that it will work.
[191] ALARM is a small Objective-1-funded project that is intended to try to help SMEs with the basics of records management, namely trying to organise and maintain the largely digital records of their businesses in ways that will help them to conform to regulations, and so on. That is running now, and has been for a while. We have recently extended from Ceredigion to other areas, as far south as Swansea, I think, in an attempt to recruit as many SMEs as possible to the group. From our point of view, that is a way of trying to extend the expertise that the Library has on records management to the SME sector in Wales. [192] We value our part on the culture board, and an interesting question was raised at the culture board yesterday with regard to the relationship between the culture board in the future and the new strategy board, if it comes into being, in relation to the arts. The National Museum raised that yesterday, and we also wonder what the connection would be between the strategy in the case of the arts and the strategy in the wider cultural context. You mentioned that the culture board was working on a cultural strategy, and as I understand from the agreement of the board yesterday, it is intended to bring forward a vision or fairly short document in early spring, which would encapsulate the thinking so far on that. Perhaps the Minister will know better than I what is envisaged.
[193] Owen John Thomas: Yr wyf yn Owen John Thomas: I admire the digital edmygu’r system ddigidol, ac yr wyf yn system, and I am starting to get to grips with it. dechrau cael gafael ar y peth. Mae’r heol o The road from Llangurig to Aberystwyth is Langurig i Aberystwyth yn ofnadwy, a terrible, and it would be much cheaper if we byddai’n llawer rhatach pe bawn yn gallu could invest in digitisation instead of improving buddsoddi mewn digido yn lle gwella’r heol i the road for people to go to Aberystwyth to see bobl fynd i Aberystwyth i weld yr hyn sydd what is there. I am sure that the Minister can yno. Yr wyf yn siwr y gall y Gweinidog influence the Finance Minister in order to ddylanwadu ar y Gweinidog Cyllid er mwyn tackle this issue. Is there a problem with delio â hynny. A oes broblem i ehangu ar y expanding the digitisation system because of a system ddigido gan bod ddiffyg arian? Hwnnw shortage in funding? That was my first question. yw fy nghwestiwn cyntaf.
[194] Yn ail, ar y system aelodaeth, a yw’n Secondly, on the membership system, can you bosibl i chi ymhelaethu ar hynny, ac esbonio’n expand on that and explain what it does and union yr hyn y mae’n ei wneud ac yn ei olygu? means? My final question is on county Mae fy nghwestiwn olaf yn ymwneud ag archives. Are there any formal or informal links archifau sirol. Oes partneriaethau neu or partnerships between you and the county gysylltiadau ffurfiol neu anffurfiol rhyngoch, archives, because some people find it very oherwydd mae rhai yn ei chael yn anodd iawn difficult to find some documents, and they are dod o hyd i rai dogfennau, ac nad ydynt yn siwr not sure where to go. i ble i fynd.
[195] Mr Green: O ran cyllido digido, fel yr Mr Green: With regard to funding digitisation, esboniais, yr ydym yn ceisio uwchraddio lefel y as I explained, we are trying to upgrade the gweithgaredd a chyrraedd lefel llawer yn uwch. level of activity and reach a much higher level. Golyga hynny fod angen llawer mwy o That means that we need much more arian—mae hynny’n anochel. Un o’r prif money—that is inevitable. One of the main sialensiau i ni dros y cyfnod nesaf yw i fynd ar challenges for us in the next period is to obtain ôl yr arian hwnnw, o bob ffynhonnell—o’r this funding, from all sources—from the Llywodraeth, cyrff, unigolion, ac yn y blaen. Government, organisations, individuals, and so Credaf ei fod yn bosibl—yr wyf yn on. I believe that it is possible—I am very optimistaidd iawn—ond, yn amlwg, mae’n optimistic—but, obviously, it is a major sialens fawr i ni gyrraedd y nod. Mae’n challenge for us to reach that goal. It is very uchelgeisiol iawn. ambitious. [196] O ran aelodaeth, a ydych yn golygu With regard to membership, do you mean aelodaeth o’r llyfrgell? membership of the library?
[197] Owen John Thomas: Ydw. Owen John Thomas: Yes.
[198] Mr Green: Ar hyn o bryd, mae’n rhaid Mr Green: At present, you have to come to dod i Aberystwyth i ddod yn aelod o’r Llyfrgell Aberystwyth to become a member of the Genedlaethol. Mae rhywbeth od am hynny yn National Library. That is odd in the digital age, yr oes ddigidol, felly yr ydym yn anelu at and so we are aiming at a situation where you sefyllfa lle gallwch ymaelodi o bell er mwyn could join at a distance in order to take manteisio ar y gwasanaethau electronig ac, yn advantage of the electronic services and, in arbennig, i gyrraedd y ffynonellau masnachol particular, to reach the commercial digital digidol sydd ar gael ac a fydd ar gael yn y sources that are available and will be available dyfodol. Mae’n rhaid bod yn aelod o’r llyfrgell in the future. You have to be a member of the er mwyn gwneud hynny, hynny yw, nid yw’n ar library to do that, that is, it is not available free gael yn rhad ac am ddim ar y wefan, ond y nod of charge on the internet site, but the aim is to yw gwneud ymaelodi’n llawer haws i unrhyw make joining much easier so that anyone who un sy’n byw yng Nghymru wneud hynny o’r lives in Wales can do that from their home. cartref. Felly, dyna’r nod a bydd y system Therefore, that is the aim and the new system newydd yn helpu yn y cyswllt hwnnw. will help in that context.
[199] Gwn fod gan CyMAL ddiddordeb yn yr I know that CyMAL is interested in the same un peth, gan ei fod yn cysylltu â’i gynlluniau. thing, because it ties in with its plans. Felly, dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, dyna’r ffordd Therefore, over the ensuing years, that is the ymlaen inni. way forward for us.
[200] Owen John Thomas: Beth fydd y pris Owen John Thomas: What will the cost of aelodaeth? membership be?
[201] Mr Green: Gobeithio na fydd yn Mr Green: I hope that it will not be necessary angenrheidiol i dalu unrhyw beth. to charge anything.
[202] Ar archifau, mae corff sy’n cynrychioli On archives, there is a body that represents pob un o’r archifdai sirol, yn ogystal ag each of the county archives, as well as Wales’s archifdai eraill Cymru, a’r Llyfrgell other archives, and the National Library, Genedlaethol, sef Cyngor Archifau a namely the Archives and Records Council Chofnodion Cymru. Mae’r corff hwnnw’n Wales. That body is responsible for co- gyfrifol am gydlynnu—y tu allan i ordinating—outwith CyMAL—between the CyMAL—rhwng y gwahanol gyrff. Y corff various bodies. That body has been responsible hwnnw sydd wedi bod yn gyfrifol am for Archives Network Wales, which is the Rwydwaith Archifau Cymru, sef y wefan sy’n website that gives details of every archive rhoi manylion o bob casgliad archifol yng collection in Wales. Nghymru. [203] Rosemary Butler: I know that some Members want to ask more questions, but we are running out of time. Therefore, perhaps our witnesses would like to join us for coffee, and then Members can ask those questions.
[204] I have two important points. The last time, there was a huge debate about signposting to and within Aberystwyth. Do we have an assurance that that is better than it was?
[205] Dr Jones: We keep on with that one. However, to be fair, the signposting is clearer than it was. We also have a tremendous advantage in that we have redone the drive up to the library; that makes it a much more attractive entrance. We have also gone in for banners, and all of that makes the library rather more prominent.
[206] Mr Green: I believe that you are referring to external signs, outside the library, Chair.
[207] Dr Jones: We try hard on signage.
[208] Mr Green: I cannot honestly put my hand on heart and say that that has been solved.
[209] Rosemary Butler: As long as it is signposted within Aberystwyth—that does help.
[210] Thank you for your presentation this morning—it has been illuminating. Please wish the new council well; it will, hopefully, be able to move things forward with these wonderful plans that you have. If any Members have not been to the library in the past few months, they really should go along.
[211] There has been much discussion this morning about funding, and it is important that the national museum and the national library have funding. Therefore, when we have the budget debate next week, I hope that Members will remember that, and, that, hopefully, culture will not lose out again this year, and we will have more money for culture.
[212] Dr Jones: Thank you—diolch yn fawr. We are grateful for your welcome and for your interest in the library.
[213] Rosemary Butler: We will break now. I ask Members to come back for 11.05 a.m..
[214] Dr Jones: I have also brought the newspapers, if anyone would like to have one—they are free.
[215] Rosemary Butler: A free newspaper—that cannot be bad.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10.53 a.m. a 11.10 a.m. The meeting adjourned between 10.53 a.m. and 11.10 a.m.
Cronfeydd Diwylliannol Ewrop European Cultural Funds [216] Rosemary Butler: I want to thank you all—[Inaudible.]—arts generally— [Inaudible.]—very pleased that Nia is back again. As you know, Nia works in the Welsh Assembly Government’s European office in Brussels. We are very pleased that you have come to give us this presentation, Nia, so, over to you. We will ask you questions when you have finished.
[217] Ms Lewis: Good morning, I will just start off by giving a little of the policy context that underpins the projects and the programmes of the European Union. I want to highlight three key points, the first being the increasing significance of the economy of culture in Europe. I want to flag up a major study that was published just last month called ‘The Economy of Culture in Europe’, which highlights the contribution of culture to the European Union’s jobs and growth strategy, which some of you probably know is also called the Lisbon strategy.
[218] The figures are very impressive. The first figure that I quote in my PowerPoint presentation is that there was a turnover of €654 billion in 2003, and my guess is that that figure has gone up since then. Another figure shows that the growth of the sector is very fast—it grew by 12.3 per cent between 1999 and 2003. That is not on the slide, but I mention it now to highlight the growth, which is a lot faster than that of the economy in general. Looking at this study, which is 500 pages long, but has a good executive summary—I do not know whether all of you have that, but, if not, I can certainly send it to you—I was pleased that the study refers to two examples from Wales. The first is the positive economic impact that Aberystwyth Arts Centre has had on the Aberystwyth economy and the second is the massive success of Ty Nant, looking at the design issue.
[219] So that is the first point: the increasing recognition of the cultural economy. The second point is that there is a lot of reflection and debate at the moment about how culture can contribute to making Europe more alive for people and how it can break the disconnect between citizens and the European Union. President Barroso asked the other day about what culture can do for Europe. In fact, there is a meeting on Monday in Brussels—a big hearing—to discuss this very issue. I wanted to flag up a good example of how a project in Wales has looked at this. I think that the Chair, certainly, is aware of the Creu Cyfle or Cultural Explosions project, which looked at informing people and raising awareness about EU enlargement through exposing them to the art and culture of the 10 new member states. That was a very good project and it fits well into this whole discussion about making Europe alive for people. It raises issues of belonging, ownership and all that kind of thing.
[220] My last point, on the general policy context, is just to say that 2008, as I am sure that some of you are aware, is the European Year of Intercultural Dialogue. The issue of intercultural dialogue runs right across all the funding streams and will be prioritised. So, if you know of people with a project that can be described as intercultural, they should be thinking about putting in their projects next year, and certainly in 2008, because it will be a big priority. Two other points that are also high on the agenda are digitisation, which Andrew Green referred to, which is central at the moment, and, finally, the mobility of museum collections, and I think that that Michael Houlihan referred to that in his presentation earlier this morning. [221] I will now move on to look at some of the funding streams. To give you a quick overview, there are basically three different kinds of funding. The first stream is transnational funds, which are generally exchange projects, and you must have partners in different member states—the ones that I am going to talk about today are Culture 2007, the youth programme, and the seventh framework programme for research and development. The second stream is structural funds, of which we are all very much aware. The third stream, which I will not go into detail about, but which it is important that you are aware of, is the funds for co-operation with third countries, that is, countries that are outside of the EU.
[222] As we are here to talk about culture, I will start with the programme that is aimed at supporting cultural co-operation. This is the very imaginatively named Culture 2007, which kicks off, as the name suggests, next year. It has a budget of €400 million, which is an increase on the current budget, and so is good news for the current sector. What is good about this programme is that it is much more simplified compared with current programmes. It has a simplified structure with just three objectives: the mobility of artists, mobility of works, and intercultural dialogue, which I mentioned earlier. Another point that I wish to stress is that it is a very open programme, which means that it is open to all kinds of operators, be they creative industries, public sector or non-governmental organisations, and it is open to all kinds of languages as well, so there is no language barrier. It is open to any project in Welsh, Catalan, Basque, or whatever. It is open to all sectors, so you are welcome to bid for Culture 2007 whichever cultural sector you operate in. The obvious exception is the audiovisual sector, as it has its own programme, Media 2007, which I will talk about later.
[223] I want to pick up four points that somehow differentiate the new programme from the old. The main one is visibility. The commission and the European Union are keen for the projects in the next funding round to be more visible, and every promoter will have to say how it will disseminate the outcome of the projects and maximise their impact. A second element that we all need to pay attention to is that of the accessibility of these projects to small operators and small projects. The MEPs and the member states have been concerned that it should be accessible, when looking at the 2007 programme. The third point is that of sustainability, so promoters will be asked how the project will carry on after the funding has run out, and whether they will keep the partnership alive and try to look for other sources of funding. That is another issue that people will seek information about. The final point, which I think is very good, is that there has been a significant streamlining of administrative procedures. As some of you may know, there were perceptions that this programme was a little too heavy on the administrative side, but significant improvements have been made, which is good news.
[224] Culture 2000 was recently evaluated on the benefits of participating, and the benefits were quite clear. It is a catalyst for new ideas, it professionalises organisations, it improves standards, and so on. It has been reported on favourably after the life of the last culture programme, so that it quite interesting. [225] The current slide shows the levels of participation in Culture 2000, the current programme, and it was done by the Budapest Cultural Observatory. It looks at the 945 projects that were funded between 2000 and 2005, and looks at which member state the leader of each project came from. You can see on this table that Italy was a massive participant, followed by France, Germany and the United Kingdom, in fourth place. As an additional point, these figures do not include the literary translation elements of Culture 2000. In the same period, 2000-05, there were 338 literary translation projects. Again, amazingly, Italy was No. 1 in submitting projects, but this time it was followed by Norway, Greece and Lithuania. So, this table is not quite the same shape as the previous one.
[226] It should be stressed that the programme is very competitive. The average success rate of those submitting bids is 40 per cent for small projects, which are, typically, one-year projects with three or four partners, worth some €116,000 on average. When you get to the big projects, the multi-annual ones, which can run from three to five years with an average EU grant budget of €675,000, the success rate is 18 per cent. So, it is a very good thing to get through and be a successful Culture 2000 project.
11.20 a.m.
[227] On this slide, I have just picked a couple of examples of Welsh participation. You can see literature in the four different artforms, if you like. The first one is a literature project at the University of Wales Aberystwyth, promoting literature in lesser-used languages. The second one is a heritage project, which is about how you communicate landscape and the importance of cultural landscapes. In part, they have looked at how to share best-practice approaches to studying landscape and so forth in partnership with other bodies. The third is a University of Wales Institute, Cardiff project, in which UWIC was leading on exploring visual arts practice in diverse European locations. The fourth is a Welsh independent dance project, which is a touring project and a workshop, looking at new technologies and dance, and bringing visual artists together with dancers. Every single Culture 2000 or Culture 2007 project is multifaceted; there are many different elements to all of the projects. All of the Welsh projects that have succeeded in getting funding did so in the face of very strong competition, so they did extremely well to get support from this competitive project.
[228] Before I move on to look at the media programme, I want to say that there is a strong appetite, particularly from the new member states, to co-operate with people in Wales. I am hoping that, next time, perhaps we can see even more projects between Wales and the new member states, which would be very interesting. Andrew Green mentioned Latvia this morning and I know that Wales already has good co-operation with Latvia on the cultural front. There are also some very good links with Poland. I was at a conference recently in Krakow and there were some very interesting cultural operators there from the new member states, who were all saying, ‘Great, we would love to work with Wales’. There is some very interesting potential there. [229] This slide shows a citizenship programme; it is not a cultural programme in the sense that it is there for the performing arts, but it is cultural in the sense that it is about values, identity and people having a sense of belonging to the European Union, of being European citizens and that kind of thing. Again, it is looking at bridging this gap that everyone agrees exists between citizens and the European Union, and it is trying to get people to participate more in their society. It has four strands. The first is town twinning, which we all know about. The new strand, which I have highlighted in blue, is on citizens’ panels. I was quite interested to hear that Michael Houlihan from the national museum mentioned this morning that he was looking at citizens’ panels, in terms of seeking the public’s view on where the museum should go in future. He also mentioned it in the context of the project on Muslim culture. I thought that there could be scope for an interesting project there. There are also projects for non-governmental organisations as part of the Citizens for Europe programme. At the bottom, I have just flagged up that there is a wide scope for culture, and the sports sector in particular, to engage with this programme. This is very interesting, particularly the citizens’ panels. I just wanted to stress that as a new development in the European Union funding process. The European Union is looking for people to be imaginative in communicating with citizens, and in getting them to state their views.
[230] To move on to quite a different programme, Media 2007, this aims to make the European Union’s audiovisual industry more competitive. I think that there is a realisation that, because of how Europe is, the market is naturally very fragmented with different countries, languages and so forth. It tries to help the sector to overcome some of these obstacles or barriers. So, it is definitely an industry programme. With the new programme, there will be much more emphasis on digitisation, which we have talked a lot about this morning. How do you adapt to a new digital marketplace? How do small and medium-sized enterprises get access to finance? There is a lot of emphasis on that in the new programme. Wales has done very well out of the media programme, historically. Its participation rate outstrips that of comparable regions right across the European Union, and colleagues in Media Antennae have told me that it is as good as that in many of the small member states, so that is very much a good-news story for Wales.
[231] In terms of money, I have noted here that the amount of media receipts into Wales in 1997 was €70,000; in 2003, it had already gone up to €890,000, and later figures will be a lot higher. Getting a media grant acts as a catalyst for bringing in more money. My first example of that is a Tinopolis project. It is a 180-minute documentary. It is about gold, as you can tell from the title of the slide. It got two tranches of money: a media development grant, which helped it to work on the script and to get partners in other countries to set up co-production deals; and then a grant from media, which gave it 20 per cent of the costs of the co-production between S4C, RTE in Ireland, and La Cinq TV in France. After that—and this is where I come back to my point about it being a catalyst—the programme was sold on to eight countries, which brings in more revenue. It is a really interesting and useful programme.
[232] The second example—and some of you may have seen this, as it was highlighted at the Cardiff Film Festival—is Holi Hanna, which is animation about an agony-aunt duck. It got a television broadcasting grant through media. It is aimed at international markets and it has 14 partners in co-production from five different member states. That is an amazing success story. [233] I will move on to another two programmes—and I apologise if this is a little disjointed, but the programmes are quite distinct. The first is the European Union’s Youth programme, which is worth €885 million. That, again, is above the current budget. It supports volunteering, exchanges and local youth projects. Wales, historically, has done very well out of this programme. Art, culture, media and sport are all prevalent themes running right through this programme. I have highlighted the example of UNA Exchange, which is based in the Temple of Peace here in Cardiff, along with ProMo Cymru, which some of you may know of, which is to help young people to get involved in the cultural industries. It has a project that brings in volunteers from other member states to help them to develop skills in the creative industries. It gives them experience of events management, marketing, filming and so on. Another interesting project is run by a France-based organisation and that is an artist-in-residency scheme for young artists aged 18 to 25. They spend six months in another country, working in a hospital or a prison and so on. So, there is a lot of scope.
[234] I mentioned Theatr Fforwm Cymru in the paper, which has used the youth programme to look at democracy and participation through theatre, getting young people in Wales to work with young people in Estonia, Latvia and so on. So, the scope is there and we have a very good contact point in Wales in the British Council, which has huge amounts of expertise and experience in the Youth in Action programme. So, if you know anyone who is interested in putting in a youth bid, just knock on the British Council Wales’s door in Cathays park, and it will definitely be willing to help.
[235] The second programme on the slide is the Lifelong Learning programme. The budget there is important and has gone up. It supports Leonardo, which is the strand that supports vocational training, and there are plenty of examples of how people working in the cultural sector have gone on placements to other countries. They can be working in archaeology, graphic design, film, animation or the performing arts. These are all real examples of projects. I have not just made them up; they do exist. So, again, the scope is there. Instead of the placements, you can also do joint projects, where you work on developing teaching materials. I found one recently on textile design. You would have four partners from four different countries thinking, ‘How do we develop a really good course on textile design?’, and they would all work together on that.
11.30 a.m.
[236] Another element to the Lifelong Learning programme is the Comenius schools project. I think that the vast majority of these projects will have a cultural element because they are all about intercultural learning and learning about each other’s traditions, languages, cultures and so on. Finally, on the point on culture and education, I just want to flag up the fact that the commission has just published a really interesting study on culture and education, which is obviously very relevant to people who may seek funding from the Lifelong Learning programme in the future. It may be worth flagging up that there are two contact points in Wales: one is the British Council and the other is Ecotec, which I believe is opening an office in Cardiff, or it may have done so by now. There are two contact points there. [237] On structural funds, I think that you are all aware that the sector has benefited from structural fund projects during the current round. There are plenty of examples and the one that I have given in the presentation is the Merthyr Tydfil media project, which gives disadvantaged young people a chance to write, direct and act and so on, to build their self-confidence and give them new skills. Again, films from the Merthyr Tydfil media project were shown at the Cardiff Film Festival, which I think is a great initiative. There are plenty of other examples, such as Galeri in Caernarfon, Theatr y Mwldan in my home town of Cardigan, and the Tregaron town restoration; Neath Port Talbot has a heritage training centre and ProMo Cymru, which I mentioned earlier, has a Young Entrepreneurs in Culture Industries scheme, which is quite a big project. A lot of interesting projects have been funded through structural funds and there will certainly be scope next time around.
[238] I wanted to make the point, and I think that I made it strongly in the paper, that the new structural fund round for 2007-13 is characterised by a closer alignment between the strategies—the strategies being Lisbon, the EU growth and jobs strategy and the Welsh Assembly Government’s strategies, such as ‘Wales: A Vibrant Economy’ and the skills and employment action plan—and the projects themselves, and, as I have called it on the slide, a greater concentration of funds. There will be more emphasis—and it is a question of emphasis—on larger projects that bring together, or federate, different organisations. I hope that there will be more coherence between different structural fund projects. I just wanted to stress that the sector is actively engaging with the structural funds and you have all seen that the arts council responded to the two consultations. I think that you were all at the arts council conference on 21 September, when the council discussed the new round of structural funds with the interested parties in Wales. People are developing proposals and ideas. In terms of structural funds, you have convergence funding in west Wales and the Valleys and competitiveness funding in east Wales. I have detailed that a bit more in the paper, so I will not go into it now.
[239] The third element of the structural funds is the co-operation strand. As some of you might know, this is INTERREG, which is what it is called now. Its objective is European territorial co- operation and it is pretty similar to what happens now, with three different strands to it. The first is the cross-border strand, including west Wales and Ireland, and I think that that is the one that would be of most interest to the cultural sector. It will be worth somewhere between €50 million and €55 million over the next EU funding period. I have included two examples of projects in the paper—Artswave and the Cultural Co-operation and Touring project, known as CCAT—that have both been funded under the current programme. There are plenty of others, such as the Interarts project, which is about festivals, and Geiriadur.net, which is about putting a Welsh and a Gaelic dictionary online. There is also an Ireland-Wales network of craft designers. There are more, but these are just some examples that I can highlight. I could give you more information about any of the projects, but I am just concerned about the time that we have left. Atlantic Arc and North West Europe are trans-national programmes and therefore include groupings of regions. Atlantic Arc takes all the countries on the Atlantic seaboard and North West Europe, as the name suggests, includes all the regions in north-west Europe. I have just included one example of a project: Torfaen County Borough Council was a prominent member of one project, the European Route of Industrial Heritage. I noticed that Paul Loveluck mentioned Herian this morning and I spoke to someone from Torfaen a couple of days ago who said that they felt that being part of the European Route of Industrial Heritage was the catalyst for Herian. Sometimes, being part of a European project can be a catalyst for domestic development. This is inter-regional, so any region can work with any other region across Europe. At this point, I will flag up the European cultural tourism network, on which the former Wales Tourist Board was leading, and which is having its final conference around about now. So, that is the European territorial co-operation.
[240] On other sources of funding, I think that I covered the first two sources in-depth in the paper, so I will not go into those now. The third is the competitiveness and innovation framework programme, and I wanted to flag up the fact that one element of this is on ICT. I do not know whether you have heard of a programme called eContent, but when Andrew Green talked about digitisation, it made me think about that and the fact that one aspect of the competitiveness innovation framework programme will be on digitising cultural heritage. In the light of the big EU- wide project on a portal that will federate all the national libraries, namely the European digital library—I believe that it was mentioned in this committee a couple of weeks ago when you talked about a digital library—clearly, there will be some support within this big programme for initiatives in the field of digitisation. I just wanted to flag that up.
[241] Finally, there are many funding programmes that enable co-operation between EU member states and countries that are outside the European Union, be they in African, Caribbean or Pacific countries, on the eastern borders of the new EU, for example, Georgia and so on, or on the Mediterranean. The majority of those programmes have a cultural element. Although there may be projects that cultural operatives in Wales have taken part in, I am not aware of any. This may be something that people could look at in the next spending round and it would be quite interesting to look at that.
[242] On the Welsh language and sport, the first point on the Welsh language is that there is no specific programme at EU level for regional and minority languages, but—and it is an important ‘but’—regional and minority languages are now eligible for funding within the language strand of the Lifelong Learning programme that I mentioned earlier. That is a new development and that strand will, over the seven-year period, be worth €103 million. It will fund projects and networks such as those relating to exchange of experience, exchange of best practice and policy development, as well as how you transfer the results of previously funded projects to new contexts—for example, the dissemination and, what the European Union calls, the exploitation of results, which, in even more horrible euro-jargon language, is sometimes called ‘valorisation’.
[243] One project that could be funded through this strand is a project on the use of media—traditional or new media—to motivate young people to speak Welsh. Another could be the kind of project that the Catalans have whereby locals teach people, who have just moved to Catalonia, the Catalan language and introduce them to the culture as hosts or ambassadors. So, the scope is quite wide. However, I just wanted to make people aware of this because it is new and it is obviously important that people in Wales make use of this because it is a case of ‘use it or lose it’, I suppose. That is just something to bear in mind. [244] The other key point to bear in mind, and perhaps this was not clear enough when I was going through the different funding programmes, is that Welsh-language programmes are eligible right across the funding programmes, for example, the culture programme and the INTERREG Wales- Ireland programme, which I mentioned. There would certainly be scope there. There is also the European agriculture fund for rural development. There have certainly been projects that Menter Môn, for example, put forward on promoting the Welsh language in Anglesey. So, there will be scope under a host of programmes.
11.40 a.m.
[245] On sport, I have a similar point in that there is no specific sports programme; that does not exist. However, having said that, you can get funding for projects with a sports dimension through a wide variety of different programmes. I have given some real-life examples here. You have Leonardo placements for trainee footballers. They spend time training in another member state and working alongside other footballers. There is a similar project for riding instructors. I wish to highlight the Citizens for Europe programme, which I mentioned earlier in the presentation. It specifically mentions that sports clubs are a good way of reaching people, because people are members and they are grass-roots organisations. It is keen for sport to be included in the Citizens for Europe programme. I mentioned youth programmes earlier. There have been many projects around how sport can help to socially integrate people, or how it can be used as a means to overcome racism, through schemes such as the kicking racism out of football campaign.
[246] This is my final slide. I want to stress that there are opportunities for culture, Welsh language and sport under a wide variety of programmes, and the message is, ‘Be creative’. It is a message that is contained in the report that I mentioned at the beginning of my presentation on the cultural economy of Europe, namely that the culture sector should make the most of the EU support programmes.
[247] The second point is just to say that the sector in Wales is already engaging with EU programmes. There are many project examples and some good case studies that we can learn from. The emphasis in the future will be on visible programmes that make a critical impact on sustainability, in terms of how work can carry on after the lifetime of a project, or how the project hopes to carry on. The other emphasis will be on the accessibility of smaller operators, which is an important point.
[248] Another point that I have covered in the paper, but which I may not have mentioned today, is how important it is to be involved in pan-European networks. For example, I believe that the national museum is involved in the Network of European Museum Organisations, which is the European network for museums. The national library is involved in a similar network for libraries, called the European Bureau of Library, Information and Documentation Associations. Many operators in Wales are involved in these pan-European networks, but it is a good way of meeting your counterparts in other countries to hear what is going on, and to make those connections that enable you to put together joint projects and think about getting involved in European transnational projects. [249] My last point is something that I touched on earlier, namely that there are proven benefits to working across borders. There are plenty of reports that demonstrate the benefits. I am confident that the administrative simplification that is happening across the EU programmes should make it easier for people to take part.
[250] Rosemary Butler: Thank you, Nia. You have given us a huge amount of information, which is not just valuable for this committee, but for other committees, particularly the education and European committees. You made a point about cross-border working being at the fore at the moment, particularly with the new member states, many of which have specific budgets for helping them to exploit European money.
[251] Eleanor Burnham: I am delighted that you gave us such an upbeat presentation, because recently, at the North Wales Economic Forum, we had quite the reverse in many respects from a colleague. It appeared through questioning members of the local authority—who are well versed in these matters—businesses, the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses that there is concern about the seeming ongoing complexity, but you tell us positively that it will be far easier and more streamlined from now on. You mentioned the hit rate, so to speak. Can you lead us through the mechanics, because my understanding is that the cost, the time and the effort needed to put bids together have been a barrier for smaller groups? It seemed from the presentation to the North Wales Economic Forum that it was even being suggested that it would be contrary to previous ways of working, and that you could even have Assembly Ministers and departments leading on certain bids. We all know of circumstances where the bids have been placed, lots of time and money have been spent on feasibility studies, and it has all come to nothing. Could you reassure us about the positive aspect of my question?
[252] Ms Lewis: When I was talking about the administrative simplification, the three things that came to mind, thinking about the culture programme particularly, although it may also include the other citizens’ programmes, were, first, the cash-flow situation. It used to be that you would get 50 per cent of your funding upfront and then you had to wait until the end of the project to get the other 50 per cent. Clearly, that is not a good situation. They have now changed it so that it is 70:30 because, obviously, having 70 per cent of your money up-front is a lot better than just 50 per cent. Secondly, they are going to cut the time right across all these EU programmes—and I am talking more about the transnational programmes, such as the Lifelong Learning programme. For example, when you put your bid in, you have to wait for months on end, but now they have promised to make significant cuts of two to three months in the time that it takes them to process the bids. Again, these are promises, and we will have to monitor whether they play out in real life. Thirdly, there has been a significant and greatly increased emphasis on lump-sum grants. For example, before, when you were submitting your claims or whatever, you had to put in every single bit of paper. Now, how it should work is you say, ‘Right, I have a conference with 50 people attending’, and the commission will say, ‘Okay, fair enough. This is the per diem; that is how much we are paying you’, and that is it. All that you need to show then, as proof, are the names and maybe the e- mail addresses of those 50 people, just to check that they did actually attend. For the travelling, you just need a plane ticket; you do not need the same level of detail as before, because there is a feeling that there should be much more proportionality now. Many of these are very small projects, so we should not need the same level of checking as you would need for very big projects. That is where I was coming from. [253] Eleanor Burnham: Just to follow that up, the understanding that we had from the previous presentation was that, actually, you could go further down the line, but still fall at the last hurdle. That is, you will have spent a far longer time before you are told whether you have been successful or not. Is that true, and, if so, how can small set-ups guard against this happening?
[254] Ms Lewis: In terms of the projects that I talked about, they have made promises that the timescale will be shortened. Given that we are talking about a new funding programme—the culture programme is in a new funding round—it will take a little time before we know whether those promises are realised. I will certainly be keeping an eye on that, and I can come back and perhaps let you know how things go.
[255] Val Lloyd: Thank you, Nia. That was very exciting—what a wide range of projects. How is this publicised to everybody, that is, the potential recipients and benefactors of these programmes? You made an important point that they need to be percolated through all levels of society and that things will be speeded up, but that they will not necessarily be the huge projects. How is the publicity and the knowledge of them getting down to the far reaches of society, that is, the community groups and so on that would be interested in applying?
[256] Ms Lewis: The main people responsible for letting the cultural sector know about European funding opportunities in the UK is the UK culture contact point called Euclid, based in Liverpool, which has a staff of about six or seven. It is very good; it has a brilliant web resource, with a really great website. Its staff come to Wales regularly to do awareness-raising sessions, but that is just one set of people. You also have the Arts Council of Wales and Wales Arts International, which do a lot of awareness-raising work. I believe that the arts council is actively exploring the possibility of appointing someone to take responsibility for EU programmes, which involves publicising them, so that is something to think about as well and is a good initiative.
11.50 a.m.
[257] In addition, the British Council has had designated to it the task of implementing the programmes, or, at least, some of the programmes, such as Erasmus, which is the higher education programme, Grundtvig, which is the adult education programme, Comenius for school education, and the Youth programme. It is the British Council’s responsibility to publicise the programme in Wales, and, to be fair, its Wales office does it very well. The Welsh take-up of Comenius for schools, for example, is very good. Next time around, Ecotec will play a significant part in promoting the Leonardo programme, and it is opening an office in Cardiff. The media programme is publicised by Media Antennae, which was based in Sgrîn Cymru, but is now based in Creative Business Wales, which is part of the Welsh Assembly Government and is based alongside the Welsh Film Council. So, there should be more synergy than with the domestic strategies and domestic funding programmes. That has already borne fruit, because Holi Hanna, which I mentioned earlier, is being supported by the media programme, but also by the creative industries’ intellectual property fund, so there is a nice complementarity there. You are right that local authorities also have a role to play. It is for everyone to do. [258] Lisa Francis: I am particularly interested in the Media 2007 section. You mentioned Media Antennae, but do you have any information about how it goes about its work and in promoting itself? I know that it is part of Creative Business Wales, which is what appears to have taken over from Sgrîn last March. I have been trying to find out all sorts of things about Creative Business Wales, but I cannot, so I would be very interested to know more about Media Antennae. You also mentioned the fact that media operators from Krakow said that they were looking forward to working in Wales, and I know that perhaps that was anecdotal, but could you just say why and how the message had got across to them that Wales was a good place to work?
[259] Finally, on the Welsh language and sport section, which may tie in with the money for education and lifelong learning, you talk about how a project could, for example, make use of the media to motivate young people to speak Welsh, and you went on to say that that would involve an exchange of experience or an exchange of development. Is there any particular strand, for example, that could be used to help to fund a Welsh-language newspaper? I know that that falls more into the category of ‘press’ than ‘media’, but I would be interested to know that, because I know that other minority-language newspapers have received funding from Europe.
[260] Rosemary Butler: Will you give a fairly brief answer on Media Antennae, but give more detail to Lisa in particular?
[261] Lisa Francis: Yes, as to how I could find out more.
[262] Rosemary Butler: It would be helpful if you could give us a little more of a detailed note on that.
[263] Ms Lewis: On Media Antennae, I know that, in two weeks’ time, Creative Business Wales is having an opening or an event to highlight the impact of the media programme in Wales over the last funding round. So, that would probably be the place to go to find out more about their ways of working. However, one thing that I know, which they have stressed to me, is that they are looking for maximum synergy between the European media programme and domestic programmes and strategies. They also want to work more widely and not just look at the media programme, but also look at the framework programme, because there is an element that can fund new media applications and new technologies, and so on. That is my answer on that front.
[264] Secondly, on Krakow, yes, that was quite anecdotal. It was just because I was there and I was telling them about the sector in Wales and what we are doing, telling them about some of the exciting projects that I know about. I think that that spurred a lot of the people who were at the conference on to say that they should perhaps start thinking about working with Wales. A lot of the people were from Latvia, Lithuania, and some of the smaller member states, so it was more manageable for them to think about working with Wales rather than thinking of the UK as a whole, because it is just too big. I think that they got the impression that Wales is a dynamic place, and they thought that people here would be interested in working with them.
[265] On the last point on the Welsh-language newspaper, are you referring to Y Byd?
[266] Lisa Francis: Yes. [267] Ms Lewis: Initially, it got European money to do the feasibility study, but I would have to look into whether there would be a chance to fund a newspaper. The problem is also that, with all these projects, you have to have transnational partners. Therefore, while I cannot imagine that it would fund the paper itself, in terms of the running costs, capital costs, and so on, there may be some scope for a project. However, I can look into that for you.
[268] Lisa Francis: I would be grateful for that, thank you.
[269] Rosemary Butler: Finally, do you have any questions, Owen John?
[270] Owen John Thomas: Mae’r holl Owen John Thomas: All the questions that I gwestiynau yr oeddwn am eu gofyn wedi cael eu wished to raise have been answered. hateb.
[271] Rosemary Butler: Gosh, it must be your birthday today, Nia.
[272] Thank you, Nia. It has been an informative session. In a speech that I made last week at the launch of the new media centre at the University of Glamorgan, I called for a centre in Wales where small arts organisations could go for information on European projects. You have given us a helpful long list of where we can go, but those places really need to be centralised. We need to look at that. I would be grateful if we could have a date for the media event that you mentioned. Thank you for your informative briefing. When you came the last time, we found that we all gained a lot, and I know that other committees are interested in the work that you do in Brussels. So, thank you, it has been helpful.
11.56 a.m.
Cynnig Trefniadol Procedural Motion
[273] Rosemary Butler: That brings the public part of the meeting to an end. We will now go into private session to discuss the committee’s third draft, hopefully, of the report on the review of football in Wales.
[274] I propose that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting, in accordance with Standing Order No. 8.24(vi).
[275] I see that the committee is agreed.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion carried.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11.56 a.m. The public part of the meeting ended at 11.56 a.m.