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1 HOWARD: Will Bonsall, Welcome to the Plant Yourself Podcast! Plant Yourself Podcast 224: Will Bonsall HOWARD: Will Bonsall, welcome to the Plant Yourself Podcast! WILL: Hi Howard, it’s good to be here. Greetings to everyone. HOWARD: Yeah, so I wanted to begin by just asking you to tell us your story. This is actually our second time recording. I had some technical difficulties, and I realized as I was biking from my little shed to a different office that the reason I wanted you to tell that story in particular is that your concepts and ideas and things you put together seemed to me so creative. They’re so far beyond anything that I thought about these topics that I’d thought about for a long time that I was really interested in what were the influences that allowed you to see things from such a broad perspective. Tell us how you got to where you are now. WILL: Yeah, incidentally, that tends to be how I think for better or worse. I tend to be a great big-picture visionary sort of thing and not so good at nuts and bolts and details, and linking them together is often a problem for me. Well, when I was a teenager and first left home to… went away from home, my first job was in a mining business. I worked for a couple of mining companies prospecting for copper, lead, and zinc and so on, and it got old pretty fast. I decided I didn’t wanna have anything to do with it. I decided I was more interested in something that involved more recycling and was a little more sustainable. Of course, at that time, organic was becoming a big thing, and I got into that. As I got into it, I started hearing people talking a lot about how many tons per acre you needed for phosphate, greensand, and SoPoMag and lime and all these kinds of things, and I had to ask myself I thought I’d got out of that business and how organic or how sustainable was any kind of a system, a food system or anything which relied on these outsiders, outside inputs, and special things that required a huge carbon footprint. Of course, we didn’t talk about that then. It just took awful lot of energies to move stuff around, and that wasn’t what I was looking for, so I started asking the kind of questions like you say that most of us don’t even ask, and one thing that helped me, too, for better or worse when I got into organic farming, I didn’t get into market gardening. I dabbled with that and wasn’t very good at it frankly. But growing stuff for myself – my own use – was my focus and because of that, that enabled me – in fact, forced me – to ask the kind of question that one doesn’t necessarily ask or even recognize to ask about organic systems. If you’re growing stuff to sell, then if the dollars in and dollars out matches okay, then you’d say you’re doing fine. But in fact, there are lots of things that make economic sense but don’t make ecological sense. When I was dealing with the whole circle, things going round and round, any kind of deficits, you couldn’t ignore them. They showed up. So, that’s how it affected my thinking. I think if I’d been successful as a market gardener, I would’ve been failure as whatever I am, an agriculture philosopher or something, whatever. HOWARD: Great. You came to my attention through your book, Will Bonsall’s Essential Guide to Radical, Self-Reliant Gardening, and I know that in your blog post before the book was published, the working title was Gardens Without Borders. WILL: Yeah. 1 © PlantYourself.com Transcribed by Kelly Michiya Plant Yourself Podcast 224: Will Bonsall HOWARD: So, what do you mean by gardens without borders? Because I have a garden in my backyard. It’s about a half to three quarters of an acre, and it’s got a fence all around it. How do I think of that piece of land and the inputs and outputs as something without borders? WILL: That’s exactly… you fit right on it when you talk about three quarters and a fence around it and so on. The very first chapter of the book, which I originally titled that and the publisher decided, for some good reasons, that wasn’t clear enough what it was about until too late. Then they came up with this other suggestion, which I don’t like at all, but their reasoning was right on. In the very first paragraph of the book, I point out when you look beyond the edges of your garden, I assure you you’re seeing a mirage. You think that’s actually the boundary of it. Everything is connected to everything else. Then your garden is not much more than most things. The stuff you bring into your garden, your fertilizer, what you do with the food that comes out of it and on and on. The whole thing is part of… basically the garden is the center of a little pebble dropping into water; its ripples just keep going out, bigger and bigger and bouncing back and so on. And it’s like everything, like light, sound, energy… any kind of thing in the universe is all integrated, and to ignore that is a great risk of… particularly if we were to presume or to say that this thing that we’re doing is organic, the very definition of organic is something for all the parts functioning together as an organism and as an integrated unit… and if they don’t do that, if these separate little pieces come in and out, then we really have to question if this is really organic gardening. What I often refer to, in kind of a facetious way, to more conventional gardening including organic farming is “cake mix farming” or “cake mix gardening” where you bring in some of this and something from there and they all come from somewhere else and you put it in your garden and stir and out comes some zucchini or some potatoes or whatever and that goes away somewhere. It’s not very organic. A real organic food system, an organic and sustainable life, an organic and sustainable civilization and so on should always be looking at the bottom line, should always be reckoning what all of the inputs, don’t ignore the externalities. Unless you do that and until you do it, you’re not really being organic, and you’re certainly not being sustainable. HOWARD: Okay. One of the things you say a lot, and I got out of this wonderful YouTube video of a workshop you gave for Amie Hamlin, who’s been on this podcast a couple times, on veganic farming and gardening, and one of the things you say a lot in that talk is people are coming up with the right answers to the wrong questions, and one of the reasons I LOVE your work is that you build a bridge between two worlds that I love and kind of are always fighting with each other: the vegan world and the permaculture world. WILL: Right on. HOWARD: And I live in both worlds, and whoever I’m with ends up sort of making sense, so what are the wrong questions each of these different worlds is asking? Maybe we need to define, at least for this audience, permaculture a little bit because they’re much more familiar with vegan. 2 © PlantYourself.com Transcribed by Kelly Michiya Plant Yourself Podcast 224: Will Bonsall WILL: That’s a really good point, and that is by the way perhaps the first… one of the few or only presentations, uh events, that I’ve done in Ithaca, New York, where the audience was primarily vegan, not primarily organic. In other words, that was where they were coming from, and they were very interested in what I had to say about combining the two because… yes, to the detriment of both movements, they were often seen as being, if anything, mutually exclusive. You know, organic is all about cow manure, right? How else can you fertilize things? So, animals are somehow essential to the system, and the mother nature farms with animals and so on. All of these things are true and total lies at the same time and very very misleading. Yeah, I’m trying more and more to speak to the veganic movement. Most of what I have to say, the organic people already get, and I’m telling them. They’re very happy to hear it because it’s kind of like, “Gee, I always thought but I wondered” so I’m confirming some of their own doubts and giving them some alternative ways of dealing with it. The veganic people, for the most part vegetarians and vegans are not that connected with the earth. They tend to be urbanites, suburbanites, have conventional jobs, and if they have gardens at all, the connection does not hit them quite as hard. For one thing, most people that are into veganism and vegetarianism are primarily into the compassion ethic, which is totally great. I’m all about that. It’s wonderful, but there’s… I suggest there is an even more profound motive or rational which drives both of those and doesn’t rely on the money hugging mentality.
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