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IICSA Inquiry-Westminster 7 March 2019 (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS Epiq Europe Ltd

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IICSA Inquiry-Westminster 7 March 2019 (+44)207 4041400 Casemanagers@Epiqglobal.Com London EC4A 1JS Epiq Europe Ltd IICSA Inquiry-Westminster 7 March 2019 1 Thursday, 7 March 2019 1 Q. Thank you. For the rest of this morning, we can all 2 (10.00 am) 2 assume that, when we talk about Operation Conifer, we 3 THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Day 4 of 3 are talking about your Operation Conifer. 4 this public hearing. Mr O'Connor? 4 Let me ask you this: is that operation still active? 5 MR O'CONNOR: Good morning, chair. Our first witness this 5 A. No, it's not. No, it's concluded. 6 morning, chair, is Mr Kirby, who is in the witness box. 6 Q. You know, Mr Kirby, that Operation Conifer, the 7 MR STEPHEN KIRBY (sworn) 7 Wiltshire Police Operation Conifer, is not, broadly 8 Examination by MR O'CONNOR 8 speaking, within the scope of this investigation. 9 MR O'CONNOR: Could you give your full name, please? 9 However, there is one small exception to that, which 10 A. Yes, my name is Stephen Kirby. I'm from 10 relates to information that you received either towards 11 Wiltshire Police and I'm a detective superintendent. 11 the end of or, in fact, after the conclusion of your 12 Q. Mr Kirby, in your witness statement you describe 12 investigation from two retired police officers named 13 yourself as the senior investigating officer for 13 Sinclair and Holmes. Do you understand? 14 Operation Conifer. Mr Kirby, we, in this room, have 14 A. I do. 15 heard evidence in the last few days about an 15 Q. Now, as you know, I think, these two men will be giving 16 Operation Conifer that is an IOPC-managed investigation 16 evidence this morning, so I'm not going to ask you 17 into allegations of police misconduct relating to 17 anything about the detail of their accounts. We will 18 Cyril Smith in the 1970s. Is that the same 18 hear that from them. What I want to ask you is simply 19 Operation Conifer or a different operation? 19 a few questions about how you came to obtain these men's 20 A. It is completely different; nothing to do with that. 20 evidence and what you did in response to it. 21 Q. Can you explain what this Operation Conifer is about? 21 A. Okay. 22 A. Yes, Operation Conifer, from Wiltshire Police 22 Q. Going back in the chronology, Mr Kirby, when did 23 perspective, is the investigation into the former 23 Operation Conifer begin? 24 Prime Minister, Sir Edward Heath, and allegations of 24 A. August 2015. 25 non-recent child sexual abuse. 25 Q. Were you involved with it at that stage? Page 1 Page 2 1 A. From the outset, yes. 1 Q. So Mr Cahalan had contacted not you, but your chief 2 Q. Towards the end of 2017, a summary closure report was 2 constable? 3 published. Can you give us the date, or approximate 3 A. Mr Veale, yes. 4 date, of that? 4 Q. Mr Veale. Then Mr Veale asked you to contact him? 5 A. Yes, 5 October, our then Chief Constable, Mr Veale, and 5 A. To make contact with him, yes. 6 the Deputy Chief Constable, Mr Mills, presented that 6 Q. Can you explain what you did in response to that? 7 summary closure report to the media and to the public 7 A. So initially, we spoke to Mr Cahalan, but he had also 8 via our police station at Gablecross, but at the same 8 provided details of Mr Sinclair at that time. So at the 9 time, it was released on the internet at that time. 9 same time, we spoke to Mr Sinclair initially by phone. 10 Q. You describe that as a presentation to the media, and 10 Q. So you contacted both the journalist and Mr Sinclair? 11 perhaps many of us can remember that it obtained a fair 11 A. I believe the notes are, 12 November '17, we took 12 amount of attention from the press at the time? 12 a statement from Mr Sinclair and a short time after that 13 A. Yes. 13 we backed that up by speaking to Mr Cahalan as well. 14 Q. Was it shortly after that that you first heard from one 14 Q. Just to be clear, how had you come to hear of 15 or other or both of these officers? 15 Mr Sinclair or obtained his contact details? 16 A. We anticipated that any kind of media release on an 16 A. Mr Sinclair, I believe, had spoken to our chief 17 operation that had been in the public eye for a period 17 constable as well, who had put that initial call in to 18 of time would prompt more people to contact us, for 18 him, so we had his contact details, but Mr Cahalan had 19 whatever different reasons, and shortly after that, 19 provided those details. 20 I was contacted by my chief constable, who informed me 20 Q. Was the contact with Mr Sinclair separate from or linked 21 that he'd been contacted by a journalist, 21 to the contact with Mr Cahalan? 22 Mr Paul Calahan, who had details of potential witnesses. 22 A. It was a number of actions that were generated from the 23 Q. So the journalist, "Mr Calahan" -- I think his name is 23 outset when we received the information, and they were 24 spelt C-A-H-A-L-A-N; isn't it? 24 done according to the resources we had at the time. 25 A. Cahalan, apologies. 25 Q. Sorry, what I'm just trying to make clear, and maybe it Page 3 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) Epiq Europe Ltd www.epiqglobal.com Lower Ground, 20 Furnival Street (+44)207 4041400 [email protected] London EC4A 1JS IICSA Inquiry-Westminster 7 March 2019 1 doesn't matter very much, but did Mr Sinclair approach 1 should be -- they shouldn't be chasing after 2 Wiltshire Police independently or was his name given to 2 high-ranking MPs and they were redesigned -- or 3 you by Mr Cahalan? 3 relocated to other operations. 4 A. So his name was given by that journalist at that period 4 Q. Thank you. You mentioned in the course of that answer 5 of time, yes. 5 a second officer, Mr Holmes? 6 Q. I see. Thank you. As I say, I don't want to ask you to 6 A. Yes. 7 go into the detail of Mr Sinclair's evidence, but just 7 Q. How did you come to hear of him? Was it, in fact, 8 in a few sentences can you describe what he told you? 8 through Mr Sinclair? 9 A. Yes. In summary, he stated that in the late '70s he was 9 A. It was through Mr Sinclair, but also his details had 10 a member of a Clubs Unit in the West End of London, 10 been provided, I believe, by Mr Cahalan as well, who had 11 Piccadilly, and they were tasked to look at young boys 11 spoken to him. So, like I said previously, we had it 12 who were known in the area known as "the meat rack", who 12 from two different sources. So initially, we spoke to 13 were picked up for sexual services by elderly gentlemen, 13 Mr Holmes on the telephone. Mr Holmes resides in Italy. 14 and they followed young boys being picked up from that 14 Our budget wouldn't stretch as to travel over there 15 location to a flat in Cricklewood. In essence, he 15 initially to go and see him. We were able to ascertain 16 continued with details of that, which you will hear from 16 his account by phone, which we put into a report format, 17 him later, and how he raised that with senior officers. 17 and then, later on, I understand he's provided 18 Q. Just one stage more: did he suggest that something had 18 a statement to the inquiry. 19 been done to bring the operation to an end? 19 Q. We will be hearing from Mr Holmes. In summary, did his 20 A. Yes, he did, yes. Do you want me to go into detail 20 evidence indicate that he was part of the same team as 21 about that? 21 Mr Sinclair? 22 Q. Well, in a few sentences. 22 A. The two versions of events almost are identical. One 23 A. Along with a colleague of his, Mr Holmes, a report was 23 extra bit from Mr Holmes was that he mentioned another 24 written to a chief officer, I think it was Chief 24 gentleman by the name of Mr Twiss, who was, shall we 25 Superintendent Neil Diver, and he was told that he 25 say -- a better way of describing it is a procurer of Page 5 Page 6 1 young boys for men of -- MPs or men in high positions of 1 Q. Did you also make attempts to locate the report that 2 society. 2 Mr Sinclair had mentioned? 3 Q. Now, what date are we at now, Mr Kirby? You've 3 A. Yeah, we spoke to the Metropolitan Police about that, 4 explained that you had the call from Mr Veale, you made 4 but it was many, many years ago, and they did check for 5 contact with Mr Sinclair? 5 us, but that was unable to be located.
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