REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, November 19, 1974 at 11-15 a.m.

Present: The Deputy Governor other Bills. I call upon the Chairman (Deemster G. E. Moore). In the Council- of the Finance Board. The Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. Vernon Nicholls), the Attorney-General (Mr. A. Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to C. Luft), Messrs. J. B. 'Bolton, O.B.E., move:— E. N. Crowe, R. E. S. K erruish, G. V. H. Kneale, J. C. Nivison, W. E. Quayle, That permission be granted under A. H. Simcocks, with Mr. P. J. Hulme, Standing Order 27(6) for the following Clerk of the Council. In the Keys: The business to be considered. Speaker (Mr. H. C. Kerruish, O.B.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, H. D. C. Mac­ The Deputy Governor: Is that agreed? Leod, G. M. Kermeen, J. C. Clucas, P. Radcliffe, Miss J. C. C. Thornton-Dues- It was agreed. ber.v, Messrs. J. R. Creer, E. Ranson, P. A. Spittall, G. T. Crellin, T. C. Farag- The Deputy Governor: We now have her, Mrs. E. C. Quayle, M essrs. W. A. four Bills for signature. Is it your wish Moore, J. J. Bell, E. M. Ward, B.E.M., that we proceed with the remaining E. C. Irvins, Miss K. E. Cowin, Messrs. business while the Bills are being R. MacDonald, P. G. HisIoD, Sir Henry signed? Sugden, K.B.E.,C.B.,D.S.O., wilh Mr. T E. Kermeen, Clerk of Tynwald. It was agreed.

BILLS FOR SIGNATURE PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT The D eputy Governor: There are three Bills for signature—South Ram­ The Deputy Governor: I call upon sey (Acquisition of Certain Land) Bill; the Clerk to lay papers. Land Speculation Tax Bill and Social Security Legislation (Application) Bill. The Clerk: I lay before the Court— In addition hon. members will have in front of them a Supplementary Agenda Appointment of Auditors—Finance which includes in it a further Bill, the Board Memorandum (Government Cir­ Road Traffic (International Agree­ cular No. 84/74). ments) Bill for signature. I do not know whether hon. members wish to ask for Additional Payments to Pensioners the first and second items on the Supp­ Scheme 1974. lementary Agenda to be dealt with at the same time as we are signing the Tourist Premises Improvement Act

Bills for Signature—Papers Laid before the Court. T'178 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

1974—T ourist Prem ises (Development Electricity Board for the year ended Incentives) Scheme 1974. 31st M arch 1973. Report of the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board for Fishery Acts 1927 to 1965—F resh­ the year ended 31st March 1973. water Fisheries Bye-Laws 1974. Twenty-First Report of the Health Ser­ vices Advisory Council for the year Police (Isle of M an) Act 1962— Isle ended 31st March 1974. Second An­ of Man Police Pay and Allowances De­ nual Report of the Consumer Council term ination 1974. Isle of Man Police for the year ended 31st March 1974. Cadets Pay and Allowances Determina­ tion 1974. Isle of Man Police P ay and Industrial Development — Twenty- Allowances Determination (No. 2) 1974. Sixth Bi-Annual Report from the Indus­ Isle of Man Police Cadets Pay and Al­ trial Advisory Council to Tynwald. lowances D eterm ination (No. 2) 1974. Local Government Board’s Approval Consumer Protection (Isle of Man) to Petition—Approval dated 18th Oc­ A ct 1965—Toys (Safety) Regulations tober 1974 to the following Petition— 1974. Petition of the Laxey Village Commis­ sioners for authority to borrow £2,080, Weights and Measures Act 1971 — repayable within 20 years from the date Weights and Measures (Egg-Gradipg of borrowing, for the purpose of carry­ Machines) (Amendment) Regulations ing out certain works of improvement 1974. W eights and M easures (Sale of at the Quarry Road Camp Site, Laxey, Wine) O rder 1974 (dated 4th November such borrowing being in relation to the 1974). loan of £2,080 recently granted to the Petitioners under the Tourist Premises Licensing and Registration of Im provem ent Acts 1961 to 1971, also re­ Vehicles Act 1969 and Value Added Tax payable over 20 years. and O ther Taxes Act 1973—Road Vehicles (Licensing and Registration) Value Added Tax and Other Taxes (Amendment) Regulations 1974. Act 1973—Value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. 2) Order 1974. Value Added Isle of M an Post Office A uthority— Tax (Isle of Man) (Change of Rate) Isle of M an Post Office A uthority (Revocation) O rder 1974. (Overseas Parcel Post) (Amendment) (No. 2) R egulations 1974. Isle of Man Post Office A uthority (Overseas Parcel Post) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regula­ DELAY IN CIVIL AID CORPS tions 1974. LEGISLATION—QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER Manx Radio — Report to Tynwald of the Committee of Enquiry. The Deputy uovernor: Will hon. members please turn to the Question Annual Reports—Eleventh Annual Paper. Question number one. I call Report of the Isle of Man Civil Service upon the hon. Mr. Speaker. Commission for the year ended 31st December 1973. Report of the Isle of The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg Man Assessment Board for the year to ask— ended 31st March, 1973. Report of the Isle of Man Sports Council for the On the 20th October 1971 Tynwald re­ period 21st July 1971 'to 31st March solved—“That the Report of the Select 1974. A nnual R eport of the Isle of Man Committee on the Establishment of a

Papers Laid before the Court—Delay in Civil Aid Corps Legislation—Question by the Speaker TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T179

Civil Aid Corps be adopted and the turned from the Home Office, alm ost six recommendations contained therein be months later, with queries on policy. and the same are hereby approved”. His Excellency in Executive Council has just shortly before this question was Why has the introduction of the legis­ tabled directed that this Bill be now in­ lation implementing this resolution been troduced into the Keys and that the so long delayed? policy comments be supplied to the Keys with the suggestion that the Keys Will Your Excellency arrange for the should consider these and if they think Bill to be delivered to the Keys for con­ fit appoint a committee. The Bill is due sideration in the three remaining ses­ to be considered for concurrence by the sions of the House before the Christmas Finance Board tomorrow and subject to adjournment? printing arrangements there need be no further delay whatsoever in presenting The Deputy Governor: Under Stand­ the Bill to the Keys. In order that the ing Order 37 I propose to call on the Bill may be considered during the three learned Attorney-General to reply. remaining sittings of the House of Keys before Christmas adjournment the hon. The Attorney-General: Your Excel­ Mr. Speaker may agree to processed lency, when the resolution of the 20 th copies of this Bill being used by the October 1971 was passed there was House to avoid the delay in obtaining available at that time one legislative the printed ones. If so, the answer to draftsman, apart from the Attorney- the second part of the question is “Yes”. General and it is apparent that during that period they could not. cope with the The Speaker: May I ask a supple­ Bills which were required to be drafted mentary, Your Excellency? First of all At times there were, I understand, as would the hon. Attorney-General agree many as 70 or more Bills being drafted that it is a sad reflection on an admini­ or awaiting drafting. It was a question stration when it takes three years to of priority. From Ju ly 1972 to Jan uary implement a very essential resolution 1973 there was just one draftsman. of Tynwald? Secondly, would he indi­ When I was appointed Attorney-Gene­ cate during the period when he says ral on the 1st January 1973 one of my there has been a very sad shortage of first concerns was to obtain additional legal draftsmen, what assistance has staff. At that time the Civil Aid Bill had been forthcoming from the Second a low priority; there was much legisla­ Deemster in view of the fact that the tion with a higher priority and some House indicated its wish that the Second measures which were subject to dead­ Deemster should assist with legal draft­ line dates such as the Postal Legisla­ ing as and whenever possible? Has this tion, Value Added Tax and the Euro­ been of benefit to your office? pean Economic Community, which had to be brought in during that session. In The Attorney-General: Your Excel­ fact no new draftsman was obtained un­ lency, I am in some difficulty about an­ til the summer recess in 1973, but when swering before I took office, and I do he was appointed in July the drafting understand that the Second Deemster of the Civil Aid Services Bill and other was giving aid to the office, b u t I am outstanding Bills was put in hand. By not aware of the extent of that. In the 11th October 1973 the Bill was drafted period since I was appointed, the whole and consultations were being held. resources of the office were fully em­ After the consultations the Bill was ployed on the postal and V.A.T. and sent to the Home Office on the 2nd E.E.C. legislation, because that priority Jan u ary 1974 for com m ent and was re­ as the hon. Mr. Speaker will remember,

Delay in Civil Aid Corps Legislation—Question by The Speaker. TI 80 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 a Select Committee of which he was since those laid before Tynwald on the Chairman, on postal and telecommuni­ 19th June 1973 are effective in the cation services had laid down that the Island? first priority in legislation should be given to that subject. This is what, I (2) Am 1 correct in assuming that think, the Department was faced with. they are now effectively the law of the Isle of Man? The Speaker: T hank you. (3) If so, will Your Excellency seek Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, may I assurances from H.M. Government ask a supplementary? As a member of that there will be, in future, an earlier the original Select Committee and vice- notification to this Hon. Court dI all chairman of the Civil Defence Commis­ measures which 'apply to the Isle of sion, I did in fact make it my business Man in terms of ¡Protocol No. 3 of the on the 11th July to contact the Govern­ U.K. Treaty of Accession? ment .Secretary. iT would like to ask the learned Attorney notwithstanding all he The Deputy Governor: Arrangements has-said about the difficulties of obtain­ were made by the United Kingdom De­ ing the staff to draft the Bill, the fact is partments to supply a list of Com­ according to your answer that the Bill munity Instruments applicable to the was drafted on the 11th October last Isle of Man and covering the period year and was returned from the Home from the 1st April 1973 to the 1st Sep­ Office by early July this year. What I tember 1973. That list has not yet been think worries a lot of people is what supplied. Although a list covering the exactly happened to the Bill after it period subsequent to the 1st September returned from the Home Office 4 k 1973 has been prepared in Government months ago? Office and could be laid before Tyn­ wald, it is most desirable that any docu­ The Attorney-General: During that ment to be so' laid should cover the period, Your Excellency, the Govern­ period before and after the 1st Sep­ ment Office had some questions of tember 1973 as there is always the pos­ policy from the Home Office to deal sibility that the information to be sup­ with and I take it with the period of plied by the Departments might materi­ the summer recess there may have been ally affect the identification of subse­ some delay in getting the matter dealt quent Instruments. Every effort is being with quickly. (Laughter). made to secure the promised list and in fact arrangements are in hand for the E.E.C. Officer to visit London shortly in this and other connections. The an­ E.E.C. REGULATIONS AND swer to part (2) of the question is DIRECTIVES—QUESTION BY THE “Yes, though in certain instances, par­ SPEAKER ticularly regarding Community direc­ tives, subordinate insular legislation is The Deputy Governor: Question required to implement the Directives. number two. I call upon the hon. Mr. Consideration is being given by Secre­ Speaker. taries and Administrators, in consulta­ tion with H.M. Attorney-General to the The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg possibility of adopting simplified pro­ to ask— cedures to avoid the heavy administra­ tive burdens involved.” In answer to (1) What regulations and directives part (3) of the question, many of the issued by the Eiuroipean Commission Instruments which apply to the Isle of

E.E.C. Regulations and Directives—Question by The Speaker. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T181

Man are of a purely technical nature upon the Authority the urgent need and in the absence of any significant to instal the equipment without any volume of trade in specified commodi­ further delay as it provides -a vital ties with Community Member States link in the operational network of the apart from the United Kingdom, or a^r traffic services within the British with third countries, are of little or no Isles and in which the 'Isle of Man practical relevance. Nevertheless, every plays such an important part? effort will continue to be made to achieve early notification and to put The Deputy Governor: This is a this matter on a regular basis for the matter which concerns the Airport and future. I propose, under Standing O rder 37, to refer the matter to the Chairman of the- The Speaker: I thank you, Your Ex­ Airports Board on whom I now call. cellency, for your reply. Would Your Excellency agree that H.M. Government • Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, the answer appear to be falling down in providing to the first part of the question is .the those common services for which we 26th September 1974 — I am sure Mr. make such an adequate contribution? Speaker is aware of this. The answer to the second question is in their Notice The Deputy Governor: I would cer­ to Airmen No. 588 of the 13th August tainly agree with Mr. Speaker that the 1974 which has national circulation, the present position is most unsatisfactory. Civil Aviation Authority gave notifica­ tion of the probable date of withdrawal from service and the period of time out of service of the very high frequency RADIO BEACON NEAR SPANISH omni range distance measuring HEAD OUT OF COMMISSION- equipment on Spanish Head. The period QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER of time out of service was given as nine months. I have verified this by looking The Deputy Governor: Question num­ at the official circulation to airmen. ber three. I call upon the hon. Mr. The answer to part three, the new Speaker. equipment has not yet been installed but this coincides with the period for The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg being out of service. The equipment is to ask— owned and operated by the Civil Avia­ tion Authority and its primary purpose (1) On what date was the radio is to provide en-route navigational ser­ beacon at Cronk-ny-Arrey near vice and to define the track of the na­ Spanish Head taken out of commis- tional airways system so far as the nor­ ■ sion? thern Irish Sea area is concerned. Be­ cause, fortuitously, it happens to be (2) In their consultations with the sited on the extended centre line of the Isle of Man Government did the Civil main runway at Ronaldsway it has been Aviation Authority indicate how long possible to make use of it for an ap­ :'t would take to replace the beacon proach procedure to the western end of with a more modern aid to aerial navi­ the main runway as an alternative to gation? a radar approach although it does not form part of the navigational facilities operating primarily for the Airport. The Airports Board has no responsibility for (3) Has such replacement yet taken its operation. I should advise the Court place and, if not, will you impress that there are two navigational aids

Radio Beacon near Spanish Head out of Commission—Question by the Speaker. 1182 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

operating from Spanish Head and a view the sympathetic response which high po>ver non-directional beacon con­ tnis Hon. ¡Court would give to any tinues to provide an en-route naviga­ proposals to strengthen the hands of tional service as before. The replace­ the Isle of Man Police Force in main­ ment of the equipment on Spanish Head taining the high standard of law and is part of a major national plan for the order which this Island is fortunate to improvement of this type of equipment have? in the whole of the United Kingdom airways system. The work is extensive (3) Will you also in this context and when completed will result in a bear in mind the distinct advantages higher degree of accuracy in navigation which accrue from the local knowledge being possible. In view of this position oi: Manx-born officers and ensure that and the continuing provision of an en- tne maximum use is made of this ad­ route navigational service from Spanish vantage, particularly in the field of Head, including the issue on the 26th cnme prevention? Septem ber, 1974, of a new approach chart for Ronaldsway based on this aid, The Deputy Governor: I have care­ it is not appropriate to make,any refe­ fully no-ed the views expressed by the rence to the Civil Aviation Authority hon. member in the first two parts of who are acting efficiently and properly her question and in this context would in this matter. only add that the Court may wish to know that the Chief Constable is mak­ The Speaker: I thank the hon. mem­ ing a good recovery from his recent ill­ ber for his reply, Your Excellency. ness and will be returning to duty after a short period of convalescence. The third part of the question will be brought to the notice of the Chief Con­ POLICE: CONFIDENCE IN stable. ESTABLISHMENT, USE OF MANX- BORN OFFICERS—QUESTION BY Miss Cowin: Thank you, Your Excel­ MISS COWIN lency. May I ask a supplementary and at the same time express, as you have The Deputy Governor: Question No. done, the desire of all in this Court 4, I call upon the hon. member for Dou­ that our good wishes go to the speedy glas East, Miss Cowin. recovery of the Chief Constable? My question is is it known of the deep con­ Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, I beg to cern throughout the Island for the un­ ask— dercurrents of unrest which are prov­ ing extremely anti-social unrest which (1) iWiill you accept, that, in the face we have not been accustomed to in the cl. an increased antisocial element in Island before but which we are ex­ Britain, this Hon. Court should indi­ periencing with a great deal of distaste cate its support for the police autho­ now? rity and, in the circumstances now ob­ taining, recognise publicly its confi­ The Deputy Governor: I think the dence in, and respect for the Isle of answer to that is that the present posi­ Man iCbnS'tabulary in .general and the tion with regard to criminal offences Deputy Chief Constable in particular? and conduct is well known to the Chief Constable. (2) Will you take into consideration when the present establishment of the Miss Cowin: Thank you, Your Excel­ Isle of Man Constabulary is under re­ lency.

Police: Confidence in Establishment, use of Manx-bom Officers—Question by Miss Cowin. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T183

SOCIAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I am ISSUE PANEL—QUESTION BY MR. rather surprised, if I may ask you this, CLUCAS as to why a particular resolution of Tynwald has not been implemented? The Deputy Governor: Question No. This was an independent resolution of 5, I call upon the hon. member for Ayre, Tyniwald emanating from1 the Report of Mr. Clucas. a Select Committee of Tynwald whose report was received and this particular Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I beg to recommendation was independent of the ask— other matters that you have referred to in your reply quite cleiarly from the WHEREAS the Select Committee of reading of the detailed resolution with, Tynwald on the Effect of Population J think, 14 separate parts in May 1973. Changes issued its Report on 2nd Msy 1973. The Deputy Governor: Well, the view which has been taken is contrary AND W HEREAS siince Tynwald to that of the hon. member for Ayre, the adopted the majority of the Con.mit- attitude being that it is, in the view of te?’s recommendations on 16th May the Governor, impossible to formulate 1973 the Company Registration Tax the policy on which the panel would B:ll, the Estate Agents Bill and operate until we know whether each of the Residence Bill have ¡been prepared these Bills is going to be part of the and introduced into the Branches. law of the Isle of Man. If I may take just one at random, the Estate Agents AND WHEREAS one of the recom- Bill may or may not reach the Statute mendiaitions adopted proposed: (“That Book and as hon. members will appre­ a panel comprising representatives of ciate that applies to all Bills which the Government bodies concerned come before the Legislature, that un­ with the social and environmental certainty is the reason why no steps issues in this Report should be con­ have been taken to implement the mat­ stituted for the purposes of review ter. I will bring the matter to the at­ and further recommendation io Tyn­ tention of His Excellency. wald for necessary variation therecri.” Mr. Clucas: Thank you, sir. What administrative or legislative steps have been taken during the in­ tervening 18 months to implement that resolution? INFORMATION ON CHESTER The Deputy Governor: The panel STREET/WELLINGTON SQUARE mentioned by the hon. member has not AREA CAR PARK—QUESTION BY yet been constituted and it is considered MR. BELL undesirable to proceed until the various issues have been settled. Of the mea­ The Deputy Governor: Q uestion No. sures cited by the hon. member only 6, I call upon the hon. member for Dou­ one has yet reached the Statute Book glas South", Mr. Bell. and the others are still under consider­ ation and until the principles and poli­ Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I beg to cies involved are settled there is no ask— framework within which the panel could operate. The matter will receive further consideration in due course (1) Will Your Excellency inform when the relevant Bills are enacted. this Hon. Court why information on

Social and Environmental Issue Panel—Question by Mr. Clucas. Information on Chester Street/Wellington Square Area Car Park—Question by Mr. Bell ri 84 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

the Chester Street/Wellington Square at all. As hon. members will recollect area of Douglas wias released to the the hon. member for South Douglas l .s 1'3 of Man Weekly Times newspaper asked me a question on the develop­ and not to the Members of Tynwald? ment of .the Chester Street/Wellington Square area in the October Sitting of (2) Why, as I have a recognised Tynwald. I gave him then a frank and in.erest in the subject, was I not full answer, no extra information of ■granted the courtesy of prior informa­ any kind was given to the Press. If the tion? Press like to read into the answer points which the hon. member himself (3) Will Your Excellency in the could net read into it, I do not think it light of recent “leaks” to news services is up to me to confirm or say whether impress on all officers of Government the Press took the wrong step or other­ ;he importance of first transmitting wise. I do think, Your Excellency, that reports and other papers to members to clarify the situation regarding civil a: this H(?n. Court? servants, I do not think at this stage the hon. member for South Douglas is im­ The Deputy Governor: In reply to plying that a civil servant did it at all, this question I would first like to an­ he was implying, according to the Press, swer parts (2) and (3) of the hon. mem­ that I had made a statement to the “Isle ber’s ques.ion. I reaffirm and endorse of Man Weekly Times” about the an­ the undoubted right and privilege of swer to that part of the question, Your hon. members of this Court to be the Excellency, and I see no need to take first to know. Equally, I confirm that it any further. this right and privilege extends to all hon. members of Tynwald and. not only to those members who may have ex­ pressed a particular interest in a speci­ I.O.M. COUNCIL OF CHURCHES: fied subject. Whilst therefore very REQUEST FOR SUPPORT FOR strongly upholding the righls and privi­ BRITISH HONDURAS DISASTER— leges of members I do not accept the QUESTION BY THE LORD BISHOP second part of the hon. member’s ques­ tion nor do I accept the implication in The Deputy Governor: Question No. the third p a rt of the question th at offi­ 7. I call upon the Lord Bishop. cers of Government leak information to the Press. If the hon. member possesses The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I information to the contrary I suggest it beg to ask— is his duty to supply that information to me so that a proper enquiry may be What ac’ion does Your Excellency made and if necessary disciplinary ac­ contemplate taking on the represen'a- tion taken. Meanwhile, I am sure that tions of the Isle of Man Council of officers of Government are fully aware Churches which have been circulated of the rights and privileges of members to each Member of Tynwald in the fol­ in this context. Under Standing Order lowing terms:— 37 the Chairman of the Local Govern­ ment Board has indicated to me his “The Island Council of Churches wish to reply to the first part of the '.hrough their Executive meeting res­ question and I call upon him to do so. pectfully ask Tynwald to join with o'her Go vernments in making an im­ Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, to put mediate grant to support the people it mildly I am rather surprised to see of Honduras at Ihis time of desperate this whole question being tabled today need following the hurricanes and

I.O.M. Council of Churches: Request for Support for British Honduras Disaster— Question by The Lord Bishop. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T185

floods which have devastated Iheir cult and complex and the Franks homeland”? - Report on the operation of the Acts in the United Kingdom extends to four The Deputy Governor: Having regard volumes. It is desirable that any memo­ to all the circumstances and to prece­ randum to be produced here should be dents 71 am advised not to initiate any authorita.ive and complete and the offi­ action on',the representations made. cers mentioned are those best qualified to produce it. Whilst I do not wish to promise a memorandum at an early date the hon. member’s question has served to draw attention to the require­ OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT— ment and I am sure the officers con­ QUESTION BY MR. CLUCAS cerned, so far as the demands upon them permit, will endeavour to supply The Deputy Governor: Question No. 8, the memorandum the hon. member de­ I call upon the hon. member for Ayre, sires. In this context also it will be for Mr. Clucas. consideration as to whether or not action should be initiated in the Isle of Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I beg Man in advance of action on the Franks to ask— Report in the United Kingdom. To date no such action has been proposed in the Will Your 'Excellency refer to my United Kingdom. questions in Tynwald on the 16th Feb­ ruary and 19th October 1971 and 16th Mr. Clucas: I am grateful to Your Ex­ May and 121h December 1972 aiboui cellency for promising to expedite the the operation otf the Official Secrets m atter. Act in the Isle of Man and to the Lieu- ienant-Governor’s statement On the ICth M ay 1972 th at a m em orandum would ibe produced on the suibject? PROPOSEJ CLOSING OF ROADS Since the request for a memorandum FOR iJNPKt; CEDENTED PERIOD ON was first made over three and a half SATURDAY OF T.T. WEES— years ago there have been changes in QUESTION BY MR. ANDERSON the holder of the L'eu'enant-Gover- nor’s office, together wi'.h the offices of The Deputy Governor: Question No. 9, Attorney-General and Government the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. An­ Secretary, and a new Attorney-General derson. takes „pp his post next month. In these., circumstances when, and from Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg whom, can a memorandum be expec­ to ask— ted toy Hon. Members? According to press reports your The Deputy Governor: The hon. mem­ Board’s plans for next year’s lour.st ber is unfortunate in that as he has in­ cromotions include a motor cycle race dicated changes in office holder have on the Saturday of T.T. race week occurred and a further change is im­ which wou'd call for an Order closng minent. There must also be taken into he T.T. Course for an unprecsdeite'l consideration the very heavy and con­ period of five hours or more. tinuing pressure of Government busi­ ness on the officers concerned. The sub­ In view of the exceptional incon­ ject of the Official Secrets Act is diffi­ venience and indeed hardship, which

Official. Secrets Act—Question by Mr. Clucas.—Proposed Closing of Roads for Unprecedented Period on Saturady of T.T. Week—Question by Mr. Anderson. ri86 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

such ia deprivation of access would morning practices. As Road Closing occasion not only my own consti­ Orders are made under the authority tuents but a substantial number of of the Highway and Transport Board other Island, residents, will your Board the final decision in this matter will rest seek the views of the Highway and with that Board. The Tourist Board Transport Board, the road closing trust that no impediment will be placed authority, on the desirability of aban­ in the plans of the Auto-Cycle Union. doning such a proposal? As hon. members will be aware the fut­ ure of the T.T. Races as a World Cham­ Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, it is cor­ pionship Event is uncertain at the pre­ rect that the Auto-Cycle Union has sub­ sent moment, to refuse legislative ag­ m itted proposals to the T.T. Races in reement for Road Closing Orders, which 1975 which envisage an event to be held are necessary to secure a successful on Saturday 31st May for Production or meeting, can only cause further diffi­ Endurance machines involving 10 laps culties in what is already a difficult of the T.T. Course, I say that because situation. the hon. member has referred to Press reports. The race will commence at 3-30 Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, might p.m. and assuming an average time of I ask a supplementary? Could the hon. 25 minutes per lap, the winner should Chairman of the Tourist Board not have completed the race before 7-40 agree that this particular race has no­ p.m. Such an event will require a Road thing whatever to do with the Wor’d Closing O rder from 3-10 p.m. and given Championship and would he not agree favourable conditions the roads should that there is very considerable incon­ be opened by 9 p.m. At this stage, I venience to people who have no way would like to apologise to the hon. mem­ out of the T.T. Course? ber who, when he first framed this ouestion, had put down an unpreceden­ Mr. Irving: I agree entirely, sir, that ted period of eight hours or more. I this race has nothing whatever to do told him the period would be five hours, with the World Championship, in other the figures have now been revised and words it does not qualify for the World as hon. members will see it is nearer six Championship points. However, the hon. hours. On the corresponding Saturday member will surely appreciate my point in 1974, that is this last June, a Road here, that as we may lose the World Closing Order was issued closing the Championship points in future T.T. roads from 3-10 p.m. to 9-30 p.m. and I Races we want to make very sure that am talking now for 1975 of 3-10 p.m. to in future these races are successful on 9 p.m The only difference in 1975 will their own with or without World Cham­ be that there will be a continuous race pionship points. I appreciate entirely in progress and it will not be possible the inconvenience which must be to open the roads briefly between the caused by these Road Closing Orders races as was done in June this year. I but I do not, in this case sir, personally can assure the hon. member that the apologise for it in any way. I believe Tourist Board and the Race Committee that it is necessary for the success of are always conscious of the inconveni­ the T.T. Races that we should do this, ence caused by Road Closing Orders indeed I fear that if tourism in this and endeavour to restrict the duration Island is going to develop the way that of time when roads are closed to the we want it to a great many people on absolute minimum. In 1975 the total this Island are going to suffer a lot period during which the roads will be more inconvenience, not necessarily closed for T.T. Races will be less than with Road Closing Orders, but in many in 1974 due to the abandonment of other ways.

Proposed Closing of Roads for Unprecedented Period on Saturday of T.T. Week— Question by Mr. Anderson. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T187

Mr. Kerruisb: Your Excellency, may I (2) In this connection, will your ask a supplementary? The hours quoted Board, make use of the Government by the hon. Chairman of the Tourist M.ll at Laxey for canning the Island’s Board in relation to this year’s races meat products which are surplus to on the Saturday are quite correct but human requirements? would he agree that it was upon the in­ sistence of the Highway Board, after The Deputy Governor: I call on the consulting the Police and taking into Chairman of the Isle of Man Board of consideration the requirements of the Agriculture and Fisheries. Manx public, that there should be a hall-hour break in the vicinity of 5 Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, while I o’clock so that people could go from one do agree that there is a surplus of meat part of the Island to the other on their being built up in the Island I cannot lawful occasions? agree that this type o! meat is the meat that would be used in pet food and the Mr. Irving: That, Your Excellency, is hon. member from Glenfaba, Mr. Mac­ not a fact within my knowledge but it Leod, is certainly not the first person is a fact with which I agree entirely. to think about putting up a factory in the Isle of Man to deal with pet food. The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, I understand, on making enquiries, that may I ask a supplementary question of the only reason why a small factory or the hon. Chairman? If it is wet on the a small machine of this type has not Saturday will this race take place on been bought and put into operation is the Sunday? that there will not be enough meat available to run it. I find from the Mar­ Mr. Irving: I would think, sir, that if keting Society, the fatstock side of it, conditions are unfavourable for racing that there would be available about on Saturday that a race would take 80,000 pounds of this type of m eat per place on the Sunday. year. The smallest type of machine they could bring into the Island to make that into pet food would only then be able to run, with that available amount IMPORTATION OF TINNED PET of meat, for somewhere between 90 and FOOD; USE OF SURPLUS MANX 100 days per year. So therefore, finan­ MEAT—QUESTION BY MR. cially, it is certainly not as yet viable, MACLEOD In reply to the second part of the ques­ tion about trying to have a machine of The Deputy Governor: Question No. this type working at Laxey Mill, I 10, the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. would certainly not be in favour of that, MacLeod. I do not think anyone else would be be­ cause when you would have meat that Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, I beg could be condemned by Meat Inspectors to ask— being brought to a place where we are producing flour for the baking of Manx (1) As substan'ial quantities of bread I do not think this would be tinned pet food ar-3 regularly imported in the best taste. into the Island at the same time as surplus meat (particularly beef and Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, could I lamb) :s accumulating here, will your ask the Chairman, who has just sat Board indicate what steps your Board down, whether it is not possible to in­ are contemplating to rectify this ano­ clude with the meat fish for animal maly? foodstuffs because possibly this would

Importation of Tinned Pet Food; Use of Surplus Manx Meat—Question by Mr. MacLeod. T'188 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

supply the deficiency which is so de­ the present time you will pay exactly plorable? 29p.

The Speaker. Your Excellency, my The Deputy Governor: I hope the hon. supplementary is on very much the member is going to turn this into a same lines .would the Chairman assure question. the Court that he will set up with his Board a Committee to enquire into the Mr. MacLeod: I am only asking the whole position of pet food supplies in hon. Chairman if he is aware of those the Isle of Man in view of the embar­ facts, sir? Is he aware of the fact that rassing position being experienced in if he goes into the supermarket today relation to the marketing of low-grade he will pay 29p for a can of dog food meat? In association with the market­ which to my mind is almost six shill­ ing of low-^rade meal would he also ings. He tells me that it is impossible consider the question posed by the hon. because of finance to run this and the member of including fish in the provi­ reason why I said Laxey Mill was be­ sion made for pet foods and also cere­ cause a great many of those pet foods als, thereby making up to the totals contain cereal which is manufactured that he has mentioned this morning an at the mill and they could thereby make economic and a viable proposition of the t quite easily. wh;le thing, because pet foods are run­ ning at the moment as one of our high­ Mr. Nivison: The pet lover is selective est value imports into the Island and too, he does not want the “Beary” we are trying to get rid of low-value brand he wants “Kit-e-Kat”. meat and finding it quite difficult to do so? I would :ike such an assurance The Deputy Governor: Will the from the Board that this will not be Chairman of the Board reply now? .iust rejected as another question to be disposed of lightly this morning. Mr. Crowe: If low-grade meat is mar­ keted low-grade meat will have to be Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, a sup- sold at a lower price I will have to ad­ lemeniary, I would just like to go one mit this. The figures that I have got, I step further than the hon. Mr. Speaker’s have had to get them from the Fatstock and Miss Cowin’s supplementaries that Marketing Association and they are the when you set this Committee up that figures that they have given me — they go into the possibility of producing 80,000 pounds a year of th is type of mashed potatoes in the Isle of Man be­ meat which would go into pet food. cause I think this is a very serious at­ These are not my figures. They will tempt to do the farmers out and I would have "coked at these figures because as like them to consider that at the same far as they are concerned this is a waste time. product which now goes to be manufac­ tured into protein. At the moment, it Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, with goes to be made into animal feed in the legard to this low priced meat that they share of protein at Litts. If it could be are talking about I know perfectly well turned into pet food surely to goodness that the hon. Chairman of ihe Board of thess people have the initiative to turn Agriculture knows that if I send a ewe it into net food. I hear that the smallest to the abattoir scaling over 100 pounds •machine to carry out an operation of I would get exactly 3p a pound for it. this nature would cost somewhere in the If that is not cheap food for animals I region of £14,000, to set it up in a do not know what it is. If you go into b'lilding would cost £15,000, this has the supermarkets and those places at all been gone into and if they had the

Importation of Tinned Pet Food; Use of Surplus Manx Meat Question by Mr. MacLeod TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T189 stuff to make it a viable proposition I have another look at it but it is not our am sure they would be putting it into business to start a factory to deal with operation. I quite agree that at certain pet foods burt we do not w ant anything times of the year, and this is at very to be wasted and we will try our best certain times of the year, we do have to see that it is not. some surplus fish. I am one of the last people who want to see fish turned into The Speaker: Your Excellency, a sup­ animal feeding stuff because I think plementary with your permission? In this should be there as beef and lamb view of the statement of the Chairman or mutton or pork for human that 80,000 pounds of meat is sent to consumption, th a t is w hat I Litts each year, this is the figure quo­ think. However, if there is meat, if ted, how much more then of low-grade there is fish it should be used and not meat is in fact being tinned now for wasted I will agree with this but if we human consumption and which might are going to have any more fishmeal be even more valuable as pet food in plants in the Isle of Man we are going view of the fact .that pet food rates at to be in more trouble because any time a higher price on the market? Wi'l you we try io turn any of our surplus her­ consider this point when you are in­ ring into fishmeal and into oil we are vestigating the quantities available be­ in very serious trouble in the district cause that quantity now goes into one of Peel and I quite sympathise with market only which is Agrimark? them. I sympathise because of the smell. If there is any way that the Board of Mr. Crowe: Surely, Your Excellency, Agriculture can help — this is not our this is the business of the people who business this. handle meat in the Isle of Man and if the wrong people are handling meat The Speaker: Of course it is your they w ant 'to be turfed out and someone business to market meat. else put in their place, that is what wants to happen. (Hear, hear). Mr. Crowe: It is the business of the persons who handle meat to make the best use of it and to handle it in the best way possible and I am sure that POSSIBILITY OF ISLAND’S CATTLE, is what they are trying to do and if ETC. STARVING—QUESTION BY they do get meat that is of this very low MRS. QUAYLE grade . . • The Deputy Governor: I think I will Mr. MacLeod: 3p a pound. call on the hon. member for Castletown, Mrs. Quayle, to ask her question which Mr. Crowe: Well now that must be is No. 11. a very low-grade and I am sure it must be in this am ount of 80.000 pounds Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg which would be used for th:s type of to ask— business and it goes then to be made into protein. As there is concern about the possi­ bility of the Island’s cattle, sheep and Mr. MacLeod: It goes to the butcher ponies facin.g starvation this winter, are at 8p a pound. I know that for a fact. you undertaking a survey to assess what fodder will be available? Mr. Crowe: Well now if it is 3p a pound, I do not suppose anybody wants If the fodder supply is likely to be it. As far as we are concerned we will seriously inadequate, will you .give

Possibility of Island’s Cattle, etc. Starvng—Question by Mrs. Quayle. T190 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 thought to introducing .a slaughter poli­ it is readily available. Barley is a very cy for those beasts which, because of good feed and much cheaper than hay lack of conformation, will only provide at the prices hay has been making. We low-quality carcases unsuitable for the know perfectly well you cannot feed all retail (market? barley. A let of the ration can be made up with barley and the Board of Agri­ Will you ensure that there is suffi­ culture personnel will advise persons cient fodder for all stock suitable for, how to feed and what quantities to feed and necessary for, the Island’s present if they are asked to do so. There is not and future needs? much more that I can say about this be­ cause as far as our returns are con­ The Deputy Governor: The Chairman cerned the amount of hay cut was much of the Board of Agriculture and Fishe­ the same as the previous year. Cereals ries. and turnips and kales have been ave­ rage or above average so therefore Mr. Crowe: Yes sir, since this ques­ there should be no shortage there. As tion has been asked we have gone to to this point of killing off cattle that are quite a lot of trouble at the Board of not of good conformation, now I Agriculture to try and find answers. We think this is up to the person concerned. have made quite a lot of enquiries and If we are going to interfere here and we think that the situation in the Isle say to a person you m ust kill off a of Man, as far as fodder is concerned^ is beast we would be in dire trouble and not nearly as bad as it is in the North- it is again the man’s own business. If West of England, in Ireland or in Wales he wants to do this and he thinks he is and we think that in the Isle of Man not going to have enough food he puts most farmers should have enough fod­ his stuff in. This is now happening, it der to see them through the winter. has been happening for quite a while, Naturally, this will depend on the win­ not always because he has not get ter, it does every year and I am sure enough food but he has got too many the hon. member will have read, even animals on his farm and he does not if it was a long time ago. about the want to run into the winter with too wise virgins. You see there were some many. Conseouently, he is putting them in those days who did not make pre­ in to have them slaughtered sometimes paration even to put oil in their lamps much too soon and they are not even and some people even today do not ready for slaughter, but this is now hap­ make preparation for the winter-time pening. The last part of the question and they do not get the fodder that is here asking if the Board of Agricul­ necessary to keep their animals going. ture have suitable fodder for all stock This will always happen but by and available. I could not give that under­ large there is no doubt that good down- taking at all because you see if we did to-earth Manx farmers will have that a farm er could possibly sta rt off enough stuff to see them through the a winter with two or three times the winter. We think this is factual and we number of cattle he could reasonablv are looking into it. At the moment, keep with his own feed and the Board barley is being shipped off the Isle of of Agriculture would then be left in Man. the lurch to make up the shortfall. Re­ Mr. MacLeod: Why? garding education, as far as the feeding of animals is concerned, the Board of Mr. Crowe: It must be, because no Agriculture men are there available one wishes to buy it. If there was a de­ and ready and willing to assist and ad­ mand for it someone would be buying vise but as for taking responsibility for it here and if they want to buy barley feeding I would say no.

Possibility of Island’s Cattle, etc. Starving—Question by Mrs. Quayle. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T191

The Speaker: Your Excellency, I working to capacity does this mean that would like to ask a supplementary. despite all the financial support for the Would you agree that advice is going to farmer the cattle available have already toe of little help to the agriculturalists in gone back and have already lost quali­ the coming winter and a little practical ty or does it mean that the best car­ help would be of much greater assis­ cases are going for refrigeration? tance to them and would you also iagree that farming is financially on the The Deputy Governor: Will the hon. verge of bankruptcy, that many farmers member reply? are unable to buy the barley that is be­ ing shipped off the Island at the moment Mr. Crowe: Could I start with the last and which is so essential to their feed­ question first, Mrs. Quayle, animals ing programme because they have not now bellowing in the fields. This was got the money to pay the cash for it? happening within 100 yards of our Would you also agree that in the past house last week but it was not because those same farmers were able to they were short of food it was because buy because they were carried they were waiting for more to come by the Agricultural Merchants and they had more row than practically ior anything up to a year at a time on a all the cattle in the whole Parish. How­ jtoarter basis and this system no longer ever, it was because they had been get­ pertains and farmers have to pay cash ting a bit of hand feeding and it had for the products? Would you also agree not turned up at a certain time and in making your statement as to similar they were bellowing. There is no doubt quantities of fodder, that those similar others are shouting because they are quantities of fodder have to feed a being weaned from the mothers and it vastly increased number of animals in is not always a case that because they the coming winter and that the farmers are short of food they are shouting. The cannot get rid of them at prices of any­ same thing happens with lambs. Ani­ thing above £7 and £8 a cwt. which is mals lost quality — there will be a lot ruinous, they are caught? Under those of animals being killed and have been circumstances would you. Mr. Chair­ killed that have not been of a good man, agree to perhaps back-up some quality. We admit this, because farmers system of credit to farmers during the do not want to run them on and they coming winter to enable these stocks have been putting them in for months of barley and feeding stuffs that are on past before they are even ready for the Island and are being shipped off to killing. The possibility could be. and I be made available to the agricultural am only saying this is a possibility be­ community and so avert a disastrous cause I do not know the answer to it, situation? about the butchers not getting what they should be getting to meet their re- Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, in nuirements and if this is so happening thanking the Chairman for his reply I I do not think it is correct and I think am reliably informed that there are al­ as far as the consumer in the Isle of ready beasts bellowing in the fields, bel­ Man is concerned, the butchers should lowing with hunger, and my supplemen­ get at least a good average of the cattle tary is since this question was tabled I that are being killed to meet his re- am told that last week many butchers auirements. He should not get all the found that there were no beef car­ good ones or all the bad ones but he cases available for them at the abattoir should get a good average and I would except Grade Q3, that is the lowest be in favour of that and would do aU grade which was unsuitable for the I could to make those animals available butcher’s needs. As the abattoir was to the butchers. As far as Mr. Speaker’s

Possibility of Island’s Cattle, etc. Starving—Question by Mrs. Quayle. TI 92 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

question is concerned this practical ad­ concerned, the Board of Agriculture, we vice can be helpful. When do we, as a think at least, we are always trying to Board of Tynwald, take responsibility? be helpful and when we are asked we Up to now, we have not had any far­ will do our best in the future to be mers asking us to make available to helpful. them food for their animals, we have not had a farmer asking. Until that The Deputy Governor: That was the goes forward naturally we can do noth­ answer was it not? Was that not your ing about it. However, as far as this final answer Mr. Crowe? credit is concerned surely we are doing something aibout this at this very mo­ The Speaker: Your Excellency, with ment, about getting animals slaughtered respect, sir, hon. members did ask you and making credit available so that if they could pose their question or these animals can be put into cold whether they should await the answer storage for a certain time until the from the Chairman to the other two. price of animals will rise a bit or the numbers will get down to a reasonable The Deputy Governor: Has the hon. proportion in the Isle cC Man. I know member any objection to answering only too well that at the moment we then? have not been able to ship the animals we should have been able to ship. This Mr. Crowe: I have no objection, Your is because of various circumstances and Excellency. not because of something which hap­ pened in the Isle of Man, it is because Miss Cowin: I think I was first, Your of what farmers have been doing on the Excellency. I have felt this morning other side and trying to stop shipments that there are too many animals and coming in. Mr. Speaker did mention my question is this, on whose advice, not very long ago in Tynwald here, too, upon whose encouragement, did the about .this barter business, how farmers farmers act in increasing their stocks? were carried. Is it reasonable? This has I would ask if the situation at present been going on for years, it is still going is not of the most important serious­ on 'and merchants still carry people .and ness in relation to the food of the they barter with people; .this is still hap­ future, I would ask if it is not a fact pening 'and if it is not happening to that many young farmers who have some it must be because those people bridging loans or bank debts of some are noit financially viable.' This is the sort are facing bankruptcy? I would only reason. Otherwise, a barter system ask if this is good economic policy to does appertain at the present time. If a allow this to happen without stepping merchant has to pay and pay a very in and giving practical support? I heavy interest on what he gets in his would ask by what means a farmer can store to sell and then he cannot get be a viable agricultural contributor, paid when he turns it over to the how can they be viable farmers with­ farmer he is in a difficult position be­ out the country to carry them? It is cause he has to pay now, within either we people who have money . . . fourteen or twenty-eight days and every day after that he has to pay in­ The Deputy Governor: You are mak­ terest on his money. Therefore, you ing a speech now, you must confine cannot leave a farmer to be owing that yourself to asking a question. merchant for a year without getting Miss Cowin: I am sorry. some return on his pnoney. This is a difficult one, but it is still carrying on. The Deputy Governor: Does anybody However, as far as credit facilities are else wish to ask a question?

Possibility of Island’s Cattle, etc. Starvng—,Question by Mrs. Quayle. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T193

Mr. MacLeod: The Chairman of the Miss Cowin: They want it now. Board of Agriculture in his reply said that about the same acreage of hay had Mr. Crowe: Well, why are you not been cut this y^ar, but he did not say getting it? that the same acreage had been har­ vested. Because, it is to my knowledge The Speaker: It is not coming that many acres were impossible to through, it is administration. harvest because of the weather. So therefore there are many tons of hay Mr. Crowe: The premium payments which have not been gathered in. I do are being paid on all cattle slaughtered not know whether he is aware of the and getting a certain grade. fact that in the recent copy of Fo Halloo that there were some farmers advertis­ The Speaker: Yes, but the farmers ing hay for sale at 58p per bale. I only are not receiving their money. wish they would find out who the farmer was and let me know and I Mr. Crowe: The farmers will be re­ would buy a thousand bales from him. ceiving it.

The Deputy Governor: Does anybody The Speaker: Will be! else wish to ask any auestions before I call on the hon. member to reply? This Mr. Crowe: The farmers will be re­ is the hon. member’s final reply to this ceiving it. Their money is in the pipe­ question. line and the farmers will get it. We have also brought in, Miss Cowin, a floor price which they are now think­ Mr. Crowe: The hon. member Miss ing of doing in the United Kingdom, Cowin, when she said whose advice which they are now thinking of doing was it that people had now too many and possibly will do within a few days. animals. Well, this is a person’s own We are doing these things, we will do business, and I do not think for one all we can to help, but at the moment moment the Board of Agriculture ever what we want to be able to do is to get advised anyone to build up their stock more cattle out of the Isle of Man. The of cattle. I am saying the Board of sooner there is agreement with the Agriculture. This did happen in the United Kingdom that we can ship out United Kingdom and it was asked by again, this is the best thing that can Government Ministers, and it was asked happen to the Isle of Man farmers. by the Ministers of the E.E C. to build up the numbers of cattle. I do not think The Deputy Governor: Before we that any member of the Board of Agri­ pass to the next question, that question culture in the Isle of Man can ever being concluded, the learned Attorney- have been said to try to build up num­ General has drawn my attention to the bers. If farmers did this because it was fact that there is a law in the Isle of financially viable, this is their business, Man dealing with this very subject you see; it has now turned the other which is still not repealed, and I will way, now there are too many, we can­ just ask him to give you a short infor­ not get rid of them. As for saying the mation about it. The year of the Act, Board of Agriculture wants to do too, please, Mr. Attorney. something, are we not doing something or trying to do something all the time? The Attorney - General: Sixteen- We have put in this premium payment. ninety-one, Your Excellency. (Laughter). “An Act that Cotiers and Intackholders The Speaker: We are not getting it. shall not keep any more Cattle, Horses,

— n — ■— — — m ii i m i i c p — r ii rim in — — - a r o w B w r - / — n Possibility of Island’s Cattle, etc. Starving—Question by Mrs. Quayle. T194 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

Sheep etc., than what they have suf­ Tfee Attorney-General: “And .if the ficient Grass and Winter Provision for.” Court do find (upon the Report; of the (Laughter). As a matter of interest I said four Men as afforesaid) any Cottier may perhaps quote to the Court section 1 Cottageholder, Intackholder, or the which reads: “That no Cotier, Intack- like, that hath pr doth keep any more holder or Cottageholder, or any other, Horses, Cows, Sheep, etc., than what either in the Markett Towns or in any he hath made sufficient Provision ' f’br other Place of the Isle, shall hereafter as aforesaid, Order is to be granted presume to keep any more Goods, viz out from the said Court, directed to Horses, Cows, Oxen, Sheep, or any other the Coroner of the Sheading where such Cattle than what they have suf­ such Cotiers, Cottageholders or Intack­ ficient Pasturage for in the Summer holders do live and reside, to make Season, and a sufficiency of Hay or saile of such Horses, Cows, Sheep, Etc., other Fodder in the Winter Season, so as are not provided for as aforesaid, as that they may not be troublesome according to the Price current or Mar­ or offensive to their Neighbours by tres­ ket Rates at that Time, and to deliver passing or purloyning as aforesaid. (2) the Price to the Owner of the said And to the End that this Law may be Goodes, rebating and allowing out of the better observed, be it further every Beast so sold twelve pence per enacted by the Authority afforesaid, Pound to the Coroner for his Paines That the several Coroners of the respec­ and Trouble therein.” (Laughter.) tive Sheadings of this Isle doe impannel and swear four honest and judicious The Speaker: Was it then before or Men (three of them at least to be after the Government stole the common Farmers) in every Parish upon the lands from the cotiers concerned? 25th Day of March in every Year to be a standing Jury, to enquire and make The Deputy Governor: You see, it is Inspection unto what Provision of Grass all covered by statute law. or Fodder the said Cottiers, Cottage- holders, Intackholders or such like Mr. MacLeod: Any farmer is sup­ Persons, do make for their said Horses, posed to be able to get . . . Cows, Sheep or other such Cattle, as well in the Summer as in the Winter The Deputy Governor: Sorry, the Season, and to make true Report question is completed. I am not pre­ thereof in Writing under their Hands pared to take any further debate on it. to the Governor and Officers at the I am sorry, the hon. member must sit first Courts that are holden after the down, and I am not prepared to have 25th Day of March and the 29th Sep­ any further debate on this question tember in every Year, or at’any other I Court or Courts when they are re­ Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, it is quired to do the same, that so the my prerogative (laughter). Court may judge whether such Cottiers, Cottageholders, Intackholders or such like Persons as afforesaid, have made sufficient Provision for the said Horses, Cattle, Sheep and such like Goods in FARMWORKERS DWELLINGS the Summer as well as in the Winter SCHEMES—QUESTION BY MR. MACDONALD Season.” (Interruption.) The Deputy Governor: Question No. The Deputy Governor: Read on, read 12, the hon. member for Peel, Mr. Mac­ section 3. Donald.

Farmworkers Dwellings Schemes— Question by Mr. MacDonald. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T195

Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I As there is an increasing need for a beg to ask:— Government housing construction scheme in the St. John’s-Crosby district (1) How many houses built under to complement the considerable deve­ the Farmworkers Dwellings Schemes lopment which is taking place there in have been completed to date? the private sector, will your Board take up, as a matter of urgency, the acquisi­ (2) How m any such houses have tion of land in that area as a first step since completion been sold to persons in realising such a scheme? not working in agriculture? The Deputy Governor: I call upon (3) How many such houses have the Chairman of the Local Government been bought by the original landowner? Board.

Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, the Mr. Radcliffe; Your Excellency, I had Local Government Board has to date quite a detailed answer to give to this built 60 houses for the Agricultural question, but keeping my eye on the Workers’ Tied Housing Scheme since its clock, and I am sure that the hon. inception in 1952. Six fu rth e r houses members have had quite a long debate have been approved which have been on questions this morning, I will give a built or will be built very shortly. In very simple answer to this one; the answer to Part (2), none of the five answer is Yes. houses built under this Scheme and which have been sold since their com­ pletion is occupied by persons not working in agriculture or directly NURSERY EDUCATION—QUESTION associated with a particular holding. BY MR. RADCLIFFE The answer to Part (3), of the five houses sold since their completion, The Deputy Governor: Question No. three have been bought by the original 14. The hon. member for Ayre, Mr. landowner or his family, one by the Radcliffe. new owner, and one by the former tenant who has now purchased the Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I beg farm . ito ask— The age when a child was permitted Mr. MacDonald: Thank you for your to start school was recently reduced to answer. lour years. (1) Is it now the intention of the Board of Education to reduce this age r.ti.l further to three years? NEED FOR GOVERNMENT HOUSING SCHEME IN ST. JOHN’S- (2) What reasons has the Board ad­ CROSBY DISTRICT—QUESTION duced to support this radical change of BY MR. ANDERSON. policy?

The Deputy Governor: Question No. (3) What extra amount will be re­ 13. I call on the hon. member for Glen- quired to provide the necessary accom­ faba, Mr. Anderson. modation and facilities?

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg (4) How many teachers have been to ask:— employed for this new age group?

Need for Government Housing Scheme in St. John’s/Crosby District- Question by Mr. Anderson.—Nursery Education—Question by Mr. Radcliffe. T196 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

of the Board of Education since 1970 (5) Should school attendance for gradually to introduce nursery educa­ three year old children1 be introduced, tion, which by definition under the Eng­ what would -be .the estimated additional lish Statute covers children in the age requirement of teaching staff? range two to five years. The Board of Education here in the Isle.of Man does (6) Is your Board’s policy on ' this not consider providing nursery classes matter based on informed advice and, for the two-year-olds, but did accept if so, what reasons exist for ignoring the the Primary Education Committee re­ views of persons and organisations well commendation made on the 28th Feb­ qualified in infant welfare that children ruary, 1973, that children should be ac­ of these tender years are best left in cepted at the age of 3£ years, but in the care of their parents, particularly the event of there being accommodation their mother? difficulties, preference will be given to four-year-olds. The answer to the ques­ (7) Play groups have been established tion, therefore, is that the Board of in various parts of the Island which Education has the intention of reducing •have coped admirably with these young the age of admission to 3h years; this children up to now. Is it the intention intention being in accordance with the of the Board of Education, at much Education Act 1949, section 34, subsec­ greater expense, to take over this ser­ tion (2)(b) which stipulates: “The vice and consequently to close down the Board shall have regard to the need of existing play groups? securing that provision is made for pupils who have not attained the age of The Deputy Governor: I call upon five years by the provision of nursery the Chairman of the Board of Educa­ classes in school.” Question (2) — it tion. must be emphasised to the hon. ques­ tioner that there is no radical change of Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Ex­ policy, but rather the implementation of cellency, I must first make a comment that part of the Education Act which on the statement with which the hon. has been on the Statute Books for 25 member precedes his questions. Child­ years and which I have just read to this ren have been permitted to start school hon. Court. It is clearly recognised, I at four years of age for a good number think, in many areas of the Island that of years now. They started at the be­ it is beneficial for children under the ginning of the school term during which age of five years to receive some nur­ they were to become five. The new poli­ sery education when children can afford cy introduced in September 1973 made this through play groups. The long wait­ the difference of allowing all four-year- ing list which existing play groups are old children to start school in the Sep­ experiencing are an indication that tember of the school year during which many parents recognise the advantages they were to become five. The new to be derived from nursery education. policy thus had no effect on one third These advantages are very well set out of this age group because they would in the White Paper, “Education — A have started school in September any­ Framework for Expansion”, which I way. What it did was to enable the think hon. members of this Court may other two-thirds to start one or two remember I had given a copy of to each terms earlier than they would have m em ber on the 26th M arch 1973. In done under the old system. I am afraid case members have mislaid their copy that in order to do honour to the hon. may I just read very shortly from this questioner, the answers are not very Paper. “The value of nursery educa­ short but I will make them as concise tion in promoting the social develop­ as I possibly can. It has been the policy ment of young children has long been

Nursery Education—Question by Mr. Radcliffe. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T197 acknowledged. In addition, we now justify the engagement of extra tear know that given sympathetic and skil­ chers, this course was followed. But the led supervision children may also make adm ission of all four-year-olds of .the great educational progress before the one kind during the year did not im­ age of five. They are capable of devel­ mediately lead to a need for a large oping further in the use of language, in number of teachers on a full-time basis. thought, and in practical skills than was In fact, over a full year the equivalent previously supposed. Progress of this of six full-time teachers was required kind gives any child a sound basis for to cope with the extra children who his subsequent education. Also, the ex­ were in schools during the Autumn and tension of nursery education will pro­ Spring terms. It will, I feel sure, be vide an opportunity for the earlier iden­ readily recognised that all of the child­ tification of children with special diffi­ ren would normally have been at school culties, which if neglected may inhibit during the Summer Term in any case, their educational progress. In the and therefore extra teachers were only Board’s view it will be to the advantage required for the Autumn and Spring of all children to have some form of terms. Question No. (5). Here I have nursery education rather than to rely simply to say that the situation is being upon voluntary interest or disinterest studied and will be shown in the or financial means or lack of means”. Board’s estimates in due course. At this Question (3), the amount required. siage, however, it is fair to say that we Here again I would refer the hon. mem­ are not anticipating a large increase in ber to the recommendation of the Pri­ our teacher force to cope with the half- mary Education Committee. One of the time attendance of those children whose recommendations made by that Com­ parents wish them to have nursery edu­ mittee and adopted by the Board was cation. No. (6)—yes, the Board’s policy that where new schools are being plan­ is indeed based on informed advice ned extra classrooms should be added such as is contained in the Plowden Re­ to provide accommodation for nursery port. The answer to that question is classes. I think it will be seen by this partly contained in my answer to the that the intention is clearly to try and first question in reply to which mem­ provide nursery education accommoda­ bers will recall that I quoted from the tion at ia very economic cost, but in White Paper, “Education ■— A Frame­ these days of rapidly mounting inflation work for Expansion”. Further to that it is not possible to put a precise figure point, however, my Board received on the cost of providing the necessary specific advice from Dr. Elizabeth Brad- accommodation facilities. In certain burn, a Lecturer in Education at Liver­ schools no extra accommodation would pool University and a member of the be required. The details are currently National Executive of The Nursery being prepared by the Director and his School Association and a past national staff and will, of course, be shown in Vice-President of the Pre-School Play­ the Board’s estimates in due course. groups Association. When copies of the Question No. (4) relates to what has White Paper were circulated to my hon. happened rather than what will happen. colleagues in this Court, invitations Again, I am afraid I must just take a were also extended for everyone to at­ moment of the Court’s time to explain. tend a meeting to be addressed by Dr. Under the policy obtaining prior to Sep­ Bradburn. Those members who accep­ tember 1973, certain infant classes only ted the invitation will, I am sure, re­ had a very small number of children collect the well-informed advice given. in the Autumn term, increasing in the The question goes on to make a state­ Spring term and again in the Summer ment which I regret to say is incorrect, term. If the increase was sufficient to as no views have been received by my

Nursery Education—Question by Mr. Radcliffe. T I 9 8 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

Board from any persons or organisa­ rities somewhere near right. To me, it tions well qualified in infant welfare seems incredible that the Board is con­ to the effect that children of those ten­ templating going down to two-year-olds der years are best left in the care of at a time when finances of this com­ their parents. Had such views been re­ munity are being stretched up to the ceived they would have been given se­ limit. Would she consider that she may rious consideration. To the contrary, be in putting forward such projects, jeo­ however, the Board has received a good pardising the opportunities for the chil­ deal of support and encouragement for dren, for example, in the West of the stating its nursery provision. The last Island, to get that school which is so question — the leaders of playgroups much needed, and the years which they throughout the Island have been consul­ have got to attend school. I think that ted on several occasions on each of this Court should not let this opportu­ which they have been clearly told that nity pass without letting the message it is not the Board’s intention to close go over loud and clear to the Board of or to try to take over existing play­ Education that in view of the present groups. There will a ways be parents climate we just cannot afford this sort who are prepared to send their children of thing. It is absolute nonsense. to privately operated playgroups, and my Board would not wish to remove The Speaker: Your Excellency, I from parents this freedom in choice. would like to ask my hon. colleague Indeed, it is very true ito say that whether a reduction in the age of ad­ my Board would like to help these mission to schools to four will result in playgroups which in the Island have an abrogation of parental responsibility, pioneered this important work, but at be an unwarranted intervention in the moment it has no powers to help family life, and be deemed a totally ir­ them financially. However, the Board is responsible act on the part of the Board seeking to help the playgroup leaders of Education in her opinion? Further, by arranging for them in conjunction will she give urgent consideration to the with Liverpool University extra-mural abandonment of this idea, or alterna­ classes dealing with work amongst pre­ tively face the possibility of the aboli­ school children. Last winter such was run tion of the Board of Education in its with a locally based lecturer; this win­ present form? (Hear, hear). ter lecturers are to come from the Uni­ ted Kingdom. The prospect of such is Mr. MacLeod: Y our Excellency, I most warmly welcomed, as is proved by would like to ask the hon. Chairman of the fact that one such class is so over­ the Board of Education if it is the inten­ subscribed that it has to be run in dup­ tion to invite children of 2 years of age licate, but even then all the would-be to the sohool. is it the intention of the attenders cannot be accommodated, and Board of Education to provide promises for the future had to be made escorts for those children? Some to them. I do apologise to this hon. of them will be coming from Court for the length of my answer, but Cronk - y - Voddy and some of those I would also thank the hon. member places, and they will have to have some­ Mr. Radcliffe for giving me the oppor­ body to look after them when they are tunity to state clearly my Board’s policy going to school. I was also thinking that with regard to nursery education. if they keep reducing this age much more they will be standing at the door Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, may of the “Jane” waiting for the babies I ask a supplementary? Would the hon. coming out! (Laughter). Chairman please assure this Court that in future they will try to get their prio­ Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, now that

Nursery Education—Question by Mr. Radcliffe. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T199 the Education Authority is taking in is extended to the age of three, surely the children of four and under, what it is further going to complicate the have they done about the three mile situation and will hold back those age limit for children having to pay to go groups between five and six. to school? At Braddan School — it is almost in the centre of the parish — Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, I and the children are from Union Mills, should like to ask the Chairman of the the Strang, they have a long way to go Board of Education if she would con­ and the ’bus fares are excessive. Is sider that we are indeed fortunate in there any chance of that ever coming being able to call upon some really ex­ that the children will be carried free to cellent service in the tuition of young school? children, voluntary service very often but not unskilled nor yet unqualified. Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I am a Would she agree that in saying that the bit concerned about what appears to be Board of Education did not wish to take a certain breakdown in communica­ over such projects as have sprung up in tions. This Court is unaware of policies, our midst, nursery schools and private but there seems to be a certain break­ nursery schools, would this be equal to down within the Board itself of com­ taking over ■ when the children were munications. Our members -— we have withdrawn from such schools? When two actually living in my constituency the schools are vitiated would she con­ — seem unaware and unable to tell us sider this tantamount to a takeover? what is going on. In view of what has I would ask also the Chairman of the happened recently in the town when Board of Education if she was laware we have been unable ’to communicate, that in the Ayre play group, which is or at least the Board seems unable to most excellently run, many cic the communicate with us what has gone on, children new no longer belong to the there is very considerable disquiet. I am clay group because they have been wondering if the Chairman is aware of enveloped by the school which is small, this. which is not really aibl-s to accommo­ date increased numbers; would she Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, could agree that this is to the benefit of the I ask a supplementary, and before community ? doing so thank the hon. member for her very enlightening answer. I would like, however, to ask her would she agree at Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I would the present moment, because of the like to ask the hon. Chairman of the scarcity or availability of accommoda­ Beard of Education, in view of the sug­ tion in nearly all the schools in the Isle gestion that the children of today are of Man, the introduction of a lower age better able to take advantage of the group into those said schools is going education provided at an age which is to certainly interfere with the tuition lower than it used to /be, whether or of the scholars that are there in the age not this! fact would have any bearing group of between five and six? Because, cn the school-leaving age. So, that if I. understand that at the present mo­ they can start at three they could per­ ment that at several of these schools haps leave at fourteen instead of six­ there is a mixture of the ages from four teen, having completed the course due five and six; those who can take in the to their superior ability to take ad­ lessons at the age of between five and vantage a: their educational facilities. six are finding great difficulty in doing On the other hand,,! would like to ask so because of the interference of the the hon. Chairman, arising out of all little children of the age of four. If this she has said, whether the Board takes

Nursery Education)—Question by Mr. Radcliffe. T200 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 note of what is reasonable and pos­ eductional policy? Excuse me, may I sible, or only of what may in their just go and check this. opinion foe desirable ? The Speaker: Your Excellency, I did Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, put a question to the hon. member. would my hon. Chairman in answer to Really it is this. Are you prepared to the question put iby the Chairman of face a situation where if you go ahead the Executive Council, not confirm with this sort of wild scheme you are that in fact one of the problems facing going to face a demand from this the Board of Education is entirely due House that the structure of the Board to his much vaunted policy of new li: Education be examined, and the residents ? This is why the schools are Board in its present form abolished ? required. IVliss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Ex­ Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Ex­ cellency, I think with the answer to cellency, I thought it was only agricul­ that I must say that the Board is seek­ ture which held the floor to the extent ing to carry out the terms of the Edu­ that this question has done ! First of cation Act which it regards as its re­ all, in reply to the hon. member for sponsibility to implement. Glenfaba, I think he misheard me. I definitely stated my Board is not in Mr. Bell: The Board is being led by faveur of nursery education for two- someone. year-old' children. I definitely stated that in my reply; three and a half is Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Also, the age that we have in mind and would Your Excellency remind the there again only if there is accommo­ hon. Mr. Speaker and other members dation. The hon. Mr. Speaker — abro­ here that when the matter came of gation of greater responsibility. This the raising of the school-leaving age certainly and definitely not; in fact, my there was a general cry from this great hope in this whole matter is that whole hon. Court, not this, but if it was parents will be drawn very much more nursery education we are ail for it. into the field of the education of their children. I have worked for many The Speaker: And the Court was years in voluntary work .'or ch'Idren, r ig h t! and £■ have learned that the younger the child the more you have contact Miss Thornton-Duesbery: The hon. with the parent, and this is very im­ member Mr. MacLeod — now is the portant indeed, I think, and that we time to do it. Children of two years can get really in close touch with to be involved at school. No, hon. mem­ parents and their children at a very ber, that was not ever said by me. early age. Three and a half, possibly; four, we have now. Escorts to be employed, no. Mr. Bell: You want to take them I think this is a part where parents away from them? have got to realise their responsibili­ ties. The hon. member Mr. Creer, the Miss Thornton-Duesbery: No, not three-mile 1’mit, this’ is still under con­ take them away. Will hon. members sideration and is not really to do with also remember that il did state that this the question. The hon. member for is only a m atter of ¡half a day edu­ Castletown, I am sorry indeed that she cation that is ¡proposed, not a full day. feels there is any breakdown in com­ The abandonment—I have net got this munication, I do not realisa it within down, Mr. Speaker, abandonment of the Board itself and I trust indeed

Nursery Education;—¡Question by Mr. Radcliffe. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T201

there' will toe no breakdown in com­ beyond the scope of this question. I munication with the members of the thank Mr. MacDonald for his support as Board 'when dealing with matters of well. this kind. The hon. member, the ques­ tioner himsel:, Mr. Radclifie, yes, I know about the introduction of the four-year-olds. I think one has to say NEW SCHOOL AT JURBY— that this of course is not nursery edu­ QUESTION BY MR. KERMEEN. cation in its fullest sense. They were brought into the schools in reply to The Deputy Governor: Quest, on No. very much pressure and great desire. 15. I call upon the hon. member for On the whole, I think that we should Michael, Mr. Kermeen. say it has proved a most successful venture. There may be a little crowd­ Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg ing in. certain places, we have had no to ask:— specific, terrible complaints on this matter. I think that tooth the planning Owing to the urgent need for more that went before the introduction oi: houses and the fact that Government the four-year-olds, the very careful has: land available for developm ent at plann'ng toy my Board and the ad­ Jurby, could you indicate to this hon. ministrative staff and the teachers, Court what proposals your Board has have paid dividends and cn the whole regarding a new school in that area? the matter has gone vary smoothly. I would say to the hon. member Mis; Miss Thornton-Duesjery: Yes, Your Ccwin; yes, indeed too, we do realise Excellency, the Board is indeed aware that there is a most excellent volun­ because of actual and projected de­ tary service be.ng given. We have velopments at Jurby it will be neces­ made- it: clear that there is no desire to sary to provide for an additional num­ take over from the play groups, this ber of children at primary level, quite has -been reiterated to them a num ber apart from the fact that the present of times. Of course we have to realise school is housed in premises which ■that there are playgroups and play will need replacing in due course. In groups. Seme are absolutely excellent, accordance with usual practice the some may not have skilled people and Board, in common with other Boards they m ay -not have the equip-,*:ent. I and Departments, is shortly to consider think the hon. member will realise its Capital Estimates and cap tai pro­ ibis, and that of course p’.av groups gram m es Cor 1975-1978. I can assure are limited to possibly two, three short the hon. memtoer that Jurby will fce periods of a day in the week, and borne in mind when this programme is usually there is finance involved for being drawn up, but I must emphasise parents. To the hon. memtoer 01: Coun­ that the needs of other areas have to cil Mr. Bolton, no, I think we may start be taken into account in determining at three and a half but I think we can- the order of priority for various school : hot finish at fourteen. This would be a building schemes. . very retrograde step indeed, especially -if the hcri. member will realise all the Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, I beg wonderful opportunities that are now to thank the hon. member for her being opened up for fourteen-year-olds answer. I mean, work experience and link courses with the College of Further Edu­ cation at that age. There is so m uch now INCIDENCE OF ALCOHOLISM— that we are offering the child, but it is QUESTION BY MR. HISLOP.

New. School a-t Jurby—Question by Mr. Kermeen.—Incidence of Alcoholism — Question by Mr. Hislop. T202 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

The Deputy Governor : Question No. gard to the preventative measures 16. I call upon the hon. member for there is no one cause for alcoholism. Ramsey, Mr. Hislop. Certain occupations put people at risk, but it is basically a medically social Mr. Hislop: Your Excellency, I beg problem and is best tackled as that in to ask:— the early stages. The Health Services Board has issued to ail medical prac­ Will you make a statement on the titioners on the Island the latest incidence ci alcoholism in the Island memorandum on the subject, which in­ with special reference to— cludes details of early signs, symp­ toms and other information, prepared (a) the rate at which the condition by the Medical Advisory Committee is increasing; and issued by the Department of Health and Social Security. That is the (b) the steps being taken by your memorandum that we have sent round. Board and the medical profes­ sion to effect its prevention and Mr. Hislop: Your Excellency, J am cure and to rehabilitate those grateful for the reply from the Chair­ undergoing treatment ? man ol: the Health Services Board.

The Deputy Governor: I call upon the Chairman of the Health Services Board to reply, MANX RADIO REPORT —ISSUE UNDER CONFIDENTIAL Mr. Creer: There are no accurate COVER—QUESTION BY figures for the incidence ct? the disease MR. QUAYLE. on the Island or elsewhere since alco­ holism :s difficult to define and diffi­ The Deputy Governor: Question No. cult to detect. The answer to (a) there 17. I call on the hon. memtoer of Coun­ has ¡been a slight increase in the num­ cil, Mr. Quayle. ber of cases referred to treatment over the past few years. It is generally ac­ Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg cepted that this may be due to an in­ to ask:— creased awareness of the conditions and the fact that diagnosis and the r.t being within the knowledge of the treatment or facilities have improved. Broadcasting Commission that— In answer to- (to) — on the Island general practitioners can refer patients 1. The Report of the Committee on with their consent, tooth for treatment Manx Radio was placed in the hands in an acute stage o|! the disease and of Members of Tynwald, in confidence, rehabilitation provided by the Health on October 29th last. Services of the Health Services Board. In certain instances on medical 2. On the same day the “ Mona’s recommendat'on arrangements have Herald ” produced an article, mainly been made toy the Board for cases to in error, regarding advertising policy be admitted to alcoholism units in the and results of the station, but, ob­ United Kingdom for treatment. There viously, with some knowledge. is also co-operation between the con­ sultants treating these cases under the 3. A letter correcting the obvious voluntary agency on the Island, which errors was forwarded to the local offers help, support and guidance to press toy the Chairman (it the Com­ alcoholics and their families. With re­ mission. This letter dated October 29th

Manx Radio—Issue Under Confidential Cover—Question by Mr. Quayle. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T203 has not to date appeared in any local Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, hav­ newspaper. ing read this question over several times I find it extremely difficult to 4. On Tuesday, 5th November, one follow the hon. member's line of week later, a further article on the reasoning. First he asks, why was the report appeared again in the “Mona’s Report distributed to members of Herald,” again this article obviously Tynwald, which suggests he feels it was based on knowledge of the report should have been made available to which was still a confidential docu­ the public, presumably through the ment. Press, otherwise how would the public know there was such a Report. He then 5. On the 12th November, a further complains that in his opinion someone report appeared in the “ Mona’s deliberately leaked information to the Herald ” again, obviously with know­ Press. This is the second time today ledge, headline “ Lift the secrecy off th a t this suggestion has been p ut iior- the Manx Radio Report.” ward. Under the protection of privilege all kinds of allegations have been 6. The Broadcasting Commission made in the past. I would like the have-, no wish to suppress this report, hon. member, if he would not mind, indeed they gave the Committee of to tell us exactly this morning what Enquiry every possible help in their he means. Documents of this nature findings, to the extent of supplying all need close scrutiny, and this Report necessary papers, balance sheets and was under consideration by His Ex­ explanations, etc. cellency in Executive Council, and consequently the provisions of section ' I would like to know-— 22 of the Isle of Man Constitution Act c-f 19'61 applied. 'The document was 1. Why it has been necessary to re­ classified accordingly. However, the strict this report to Members of Tyn­ Report has today been laid before wald when it would be in the interest Tyniwald and now ¡becomes a public of the Manx Community to see con­ document. It is also worth noting that firmed in the more serious recommen­ only very recently has the document dations of the Report the expressed ■become complete, one cf the appen­ views of successive Broadcasting Com­ dices becoming available only within m issions ? the last few days. I am not aware, therefore, of any deliberate leak as he 2. Who has ibeen responsible for suggested', tout as the hon. memtoer has classifying this information ? raised this matter Œ will certainly take it up with Executive Council. 3. Who has deliberately leaked this information to the “ Mona’s Herald ” Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, may I and for what purpose ? raise a supplementary. I will try and put it in the form of a question. 4. Will Executive Council take action Would the Chairman toe aware of the to institute a full enquiry into the way fact that the Broadcasting Commis­ in which confidential Government sion are desirous that this Report papers of this nature are given to un­ should toe as fully discussed as pos­ authorised news media ? sible, tout not purely by one apparently selected sector. 'Now that it has be­ The Deputy Governor: I call upon come pulblic the purpose of the ques­ the Chairman of Executive Council to tion really has been answered, but I do reply. think that it is generally desirable

Manx Radio—Issue Under Confidential Cover—Question by Mr. Quayle. T204 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

when a document of this nature comes 1955 2,075,442 28,586 -forward', the earlier we can get public 1956 2,279,073 31,105 comment for the -benefit of those study­ 1957 2,382,515 34,908 ing these things, so much the better. 1958 2,40-2,760 36,015 1959 2,375,568 37,765 Mr. Radcliife: I would agree whole­ 1960 2,542,732 38,001 heartedly with the hon. member, Your 19-61 2,645,127 40,940 Ex-c-llercy, but I do not think it is a 1962 2,649,439 42,177 case wthere there has .been any great 1963 2,677,113 47,713 delay in the time the Report has been 1964 2,759,158 50,004 m ade a ;ailable to t.he m em bers of 1965 3,483,467 59,384 Tynwald that would now become 1966 3,425,925 58,276 ouiblic today. 1967 3,502,682 56,448 1968 3,827,406 54,645 1969 4,303,5'36 63,813 1970 4,850,216 (19,646 R iC S IP I 5 FROM COMMON PURSE 1971 5,096,037 73,387 AND CHARGES MADE— 1972 6,070,062 86,979 QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER. 1973 6,544,241 91,646 1974 7,673,000 U0,9C0 The Deputy Governor: Question (Provisional) number 18. For written answer. The bon. Mr. Speaker to ask the Chairman Adjustments in respect of the re­ d: the Finance Board: ceipts for the years frcm 1-971/72 may (1) What were the receipts from the be made as a result of nego iations Common P urse for each of t.he years on various matters affecting the cal­ from 1950 to 1974 ? culation of the Island’s population and (2) What charge was made by the finalisation of the results of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise 1971/72 decennial test. for collecting the receipts in each of these years ?

Answer: The total amounts collected BILLS FOR SIGNATURE— by H.M. Commissioners of Customs REQUISITE SIGNATURES a 'd Fixc se and banded over to the OBTAINED 'si3 of Man Gc/eminent during tie "'•riod 1949/50 to 1973/74 a re shown H ie Deputy Governor: I have to an­ ' i column 2 below. The Island’s Eihare nounce that al’ the Bills have been duly cf the cos's of collect'cn, which in- signed by a quorum of both branches. clidss bcth local and headquarters sdoiimstrati-'n expenses, is shown in cclu- - n 3 below. (1) (?) (3 ) COST OF LIVING INDEX— Customs and STATEMENT BY CHAIRMAN OF Y:ar ended Fxcise charg: FINANCE BOARD "1st March Receipts 'lor collection £ ‘ £ The Deputy Governor: Item No. 4. 19T-0 1,764,488 22,603 Cost of Living Index. A statement from J9~l 1,908,079 24,508 the Chairman of the Finance Board. 195? 2,101,503 18,5'9 '9 ‘ 3 1,872,969 25,803 Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, hon. 1934 1,993,425 27,957 members will recall that at a meeting of ______i______Receipts from Common Purse and Charges Made—Qu:sti?n by The Speaker.—Bills for Signature Requisite Signatures Obtained.—Cost of Living Index—Statement by Chairman of Finance Boad. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 ' T205

Tynw ald held on the 15th October 1974 engaged as engineer was far from well, I suggested to members that a Report because during the two years in which would be circulated giving the reasons he has worked under my Chairmanship why Finance Board undertook the pre­ practically ten months have been spent paration of a retail grocery price index by him off duty ill to -a greater or and not a cost of living index, or to give lesser extent. Then in April of 1974 the it its correct name, an index of retail Water Authority and the Gas Authority prices. As copies of this report would were joined together into the Water and have to be circulated at least 14 days Gas Authority, and the Gas Committee before this meeting, and in view of the of that Authority took over the duties fact that the staff of the Treasury who which were previously being carried have been below establishment was out by the Gas Authority. Early in June heavily engaged in other matters, I very at a meeting of that Committee it was much regret that it has not been pos- decided that a survey of all the services sib’e to further report in sufficient time in urban areas should be inspected so -'or th :s Sitting of Tynwald. I hope con­ that they could be repaired when neces­ fidently that it will be ready for sub­ sary. Unfortunately, however, the then mission to the December Sitting of the engineer was in hospital in England Court sir. seriously ill, and no start could be made- However, the equipment necessary for BORROWING TO ENABLE INCREASE gas detection was ordered. Shortlv IN STANDARD OF SAFETY OF after that the new gas engineer was ap­ GOVERNMENT GAS MAINS—STATE­ pointed; actually at that time i;t was a MENT BY CHAIRMAN OF WATER duplicate appointment because the Gas AND GAS AUTHORITY Committee felt strongly that they should have an active engineer, even though it meant employing two for the t'me being That engineer when he came was The Deputy Govarnnr: Iter No. 5 A primarily occupied with taking steps statement by the Chairman of the Isle t'o. satisfy himself with the condition of of Man Water and Gas Authority. the- actual gasworks themselves, and in consultation with the Fire Officer of the Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, I am Local Government Board steps were put grateful for this opportunity of making in hand to satisfy that officer that the a statement which arises from the tragic gasworks themselves were put into accident which occurred in Castletown order. However, when the explosion oc­ some time ago. In October 1972 when I curred in Castletown fairly recently I was appointed to be Chairman of the =sked the engineer to let me have a full new Gas Authority, the Authority ac­ report on the situation which existed. quired from the Select Committee of That report pointed out that as there is Tynwald operating these gas under­ now being used heavier-than-air gas, takings, a number of gasworks with propane and butane, the situation of mains and services, many of which were using ths heavier-than-air gas in old over a century old. For that reason, mains was creating a danger greater amongst others, the Gas Authority felt than that which existed when coal gas, it was very essential that we should re­ which is lighter than air, was being engage the engineer who had been uss-?. The engineer recommended that working on a contract basis for the Tyn­ a full operation should be commenced wald Committee, and he was duly so under which all mains and services in engaged. Looking back it is now ap­ urban areas which were suspect should parent that the gentleman who was be examined, repaired and renewed as

Borrowing to Enable Increase in Standard of Safety of Government Gas Mains- Statement by Chairman of Water and Gas Authority. T206 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

required. He indicated that the cost of and services will have been raised to an this operation would be £189,000. If I acceptable level. . . . thought that the gas industry of this Island was going to continue to depend The Deputy Governor: T hank you. for its gas on L.P.G. which is distilled from crude oil, and therefore subject to Mrs. Quayle: Can I make a comment? the increasing price escalation, I would, I think, have advised Tynwald that the The Deputy Governor: No, not on a best and most prudent step to take statement. I was going to suggest that would be to close down the gasworks, this might be an appropriate time to blank off the mains and supply urban adjourn the Court. customers wth gas in bottles. However, an event has occurred which cannot be Mr. Creer: I was going to suggest that ignored, that is to say there has been you could ask the Government Property a strike of natural gas in the Irish Sea Trustees to step up the heating. It is not very many miles away. I believe jolly ccld down here. that il: the Authority were to close down the gasworks, blank off the mains and The Deputy Governor: Is, it agreed allow them to deteriorate, and if shortly that it is an appropriate time to after that it was found that liquid adjourn? natural gas was available at an economic rate, the Gas Committee Members: Agreed. would rightly stand condemned for its mistake. Therfors, there was recently a The Deputy Governor: Now before meeting between the gas engineer, we do adjourn may I say that I would oth-sr officials of the Water and Gas suggest that Petitions toe heard at hale Authority, and myself, with the Finance past four. Is that acceptable? Board. At that meeting it was agreed that a loan would be made to the Water Members: Agreed. and Gas Authority under the provisions of the Loans Act, which would enable The Deputy Governor: All right then, the programme of work recommended the Court will now adjourn until two- by the gas engineer to be carried out. thirty. The arrangement was that for five years there would be a moratorium on The Court adjourned for lunch. '1 interest and repayment so that if during that five year period natural gas did become available at an economic price the Gas Committee might very well ex­ VALUE ADDED TAX AND CAR TAX pect thereafter to take steps to start (NO. 2) ORDER — APPROVED to pay interest and perhaps even com­ r mence repayments of principal. The The Deputy Governor: Hon. members, point is though that the Finance Board there is the item number 4 on the has agreed thait money will be made Supplementary Agenda which we have available to the Gas Committee and I agreed should be taken. It seems to me am able to say therefore, sir, that work that ¡probably now is an approipriate on implementing the Gas Engineer’s re­ time to take it because the Order is to port will be put in hand at the earliest be effective as from yesterday. Is that possible moment and I am sure that agreed? when that has been done the standard of safety of the Gas Committee’s mains Members: Agreed.

Value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. 2) Order—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T207

The Deputy Governor: I will call on ber as in the United Kingdom and is the Chairman of the Finance Board. expected to produce additional revenue Item 4 on the m Supplementary Agenda. to the Manx Government of at least £200,000 an amount which will be Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to needed to help finance some of the move:— additional cost of the proposed in­ creased pensions, the family allowances and other benefits which I anticipate (1) That in accordance with Standing my Council colleague the Chairman of Order 162(3) the provisions of Standing the Board cf Social Security, will no Order 162(1) be waived to enable the doubt be bringing forward in due following resolution to be considered. course. The increased rate of V.A.T. on petrol was announced by the United (2) That the Value Added Tax and Kingdom Chancellor :'n his Autumn Car Tax (No. 2) Order, 1974, made by Budget on Tuesday, November 12th, in the Finance Board on 14th November, the hope that increased petrol prices 1974, under the Value A dded Tax and would reduce demand for road fuel in Other Taxes Act, 1973, be and the same the U.K. and go some way to reduce the is hereby approved. hure balance of 'payments deficit on oil now running at a monthly sum in Hon. members have received copies of excess of £300 million. Present con­ the Value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. sumption is about five per cent, below 2) Order, 1974, w hich confirms the last year’s level and a further reduction standard rate of Value Added Tax at it is hoped will reduce the adverse eight per cent., a rate which was first balarce of payments un'il such time as introduced in July. It also introduces the North Sea oil is brought ashore in a V.A.T. rate of twenty-five per cent, much larger quantities. The Order is on light oils which includes petrol and drafted in terms of existing Manx petrol substitutes and power and Hydrocarbon Oil Legislation and it will methylated spirits. The rate of twenty- require some re-drafting when the new five per cent, does not apply to heavy Hydrocarbon Oil, etc. (Customs) Bill of oils used as road fuel for large vehicles 1974, which is now aw aiting Royal that is derv, nor does it apply, to lighter Assent is announced to Tynwald. Value fuels. These will remain taxed at the Added Tax is collected as part of the standard rate of eight per cent. Heavy Common Purse agreement and under oils used for home heating, etc., will that agreement the Manx Government remain zero rated as 'before. Any is under obligation to keep its rates of business registered for Value Added indirect taxes in line with those in Tax will of course, be able to offset this operation in the United Kingdom. The additional input tax against its output Chancellor also1 announced facilities for tax and will in effect not bear any granting relief from V.A.T. to indi­ V.A.T itself, but will pass it on to the viduals building their own houses and consumer. If input tax exceeds output who are not taxable persons. Full tax a refund of that excess will be made details of this relief are not yet avail­ by the Commissioners of Customs and able. I understand they are to be incor­ Excise. Where a small trader is not at porated in a United Kingdom Finance present registered for V.A.T. he may Bill, which is now in draft. At a future register in order to be able to recover date I shall be bringing forward a the V.A.T. paid for petrol. Ultimately further Order granting similar relief to it will always be the final consumer Manx residents. Your Excellency, I beg who will bear the tax. The new rate to move the resolution standing in my operated from Monday, 18th of Novem­ name on the Agenda.

Value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. 2) Order—Approved. T208 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

Mr. Crellin: I beg to second and re­ because I feel on the whole and I have serve my remarks. given this matter a great deal of thought and I am not doing anything The Deputy Governor: I think, hon. impetuous at all, but I do feel though members, we really ought to look at the that this is in a way the thin end of the wording of the resolution as it appears wedge, that it represents a dangerous and perhaps we ought to give formal precedent for the future in this Island’s permission for the Chairman of Finance c’.ea ings with the United Kingdom over Hoard to say what he has just said. Is Value Added Tax legislation and as­ that agreed? sociated matters. It is, I think, com­ mon knowledge that the present United Members: Agreed. Kingdom Government plan to extend the differential rates of Value Added The Deputy Governor: Then m ay I Tax. Jt would appear likely therefore then put the second . . • that we shall have in next Spring’s bud­ get further extension of the number of Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency? rates of Value Added Tax. At present we have two, zero and eight per .cent, The Deputy Governor: Yes. and the effect of this order is of course to introduce a third rate on petroleum M.. MacLeod: I wanted to ask a ques­ products of twenty-five per cent. I per­ tion with regard to this added twenty- sonally deprecate this proliferation in five per cent, on the petrol. In view of the number of differential rates. In fact the fact that it'has come into operation it will, despite what some people will tefore it is approved 'by Tynwald, if say, toe more costly administratively and Tynwald did not agree with it would if in fact those in power and those in the people who paid Value Added Tax the middle ranges of power are able to on the petrol yesterday get their money dgflect those additional costs by passing back? them on down the line the inescapable conclusion is that the consumer will as IVfr. Bolton: The position, Your Ex­ usual bear the brunt of this additional cellency, which I think the hon. mem­ cost. This is something I ieel we in ber understands perfectly well is that Tynwald ¡must do all in our power to the Order takes effect from the date on prevent. I mention the possibi ities that which it is stated to take effect but it are coming forward early next year to would cease to have effect if it were not indicate how if we take this step today approved by Tynwald. as advocated we will I think be heaping more expense on our already, in many Mr. MacLeod: They will want their ways, overburdened administration and money back. this includes H.M. Customs and Excise who it will be remembered, Ycur Excel­ The Deputy Governor: The hon. mem­ lency, ^bcut two years ago when we ber for Ayre. were preparing for the introduction of Value Added Tax slated quite categori­ Mr. Clucas: We are debating this now cally and I think reasonably in the cir­ are we? cumstances that unless we agreed to follow identically the Value Added Tax The Deputy Governor: Yes. legislation and regulation as laid down by the United Kingdom Government Mr. Clucas: I am afraid, Your Excel­ they could not and would not operate lency, that I feel constrained to oppose it on our behalf. It seemed to me that this particular resolution this afternoon they were taking a major step forward,

Value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. 2) Order—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T209 one which must have exercised a con­ ditional cost, if any, will be reflected siderable amount of effort and entailed in the price to the consumer. I believe a great deal of work on their behalf and also that we are being conned today in as I say I think this is a reasonable a certain way because we have been point of view. However today we are1 just told, if I got the hon. mover’s words in effect advocating an extension of this down correctly, that under the Com­ system and a system which will be, de­ mon Purse agreement we are under an spite what is said, more difficult to obligation to keep our rates of tax in operate and whilst H.M. Customs and line with those of the United Kingdom. Excise will be following, if we pass this That I understand was the general mes­ resolution today, precisely what is the sage but I also understand that the pattern in the United Kingdom, the fact agreement goes on to say “as far as is that locally they will be making possible" and I would like to be cor­ changes. I think that changes in H.M. rected if I am wrong in saying that. But Customs and Excise, as with many other if, in fact, it does mean that we should administrations, entail an additional ex­ keep our rates of tax in line as far as pense. Another point, of course, is that possible then I would suggest that this ?or simplification too I believe that we is a reasonable case on this occasion for should, in trying to assist the public to making an exception to the general rule. operate and agree with the operation of Indeed I feel that to some extent we Value Added Tax, keep the rates and must, within the terms of the mutually the number of rates and its operation as agreed Common Purse agreement, flex simple as possible. Another matter that our muscles if we are independent and of course has been brought up in are not just lackies of the United King­ this context, Your Excellency, is dom Government. What are we doing that we wish to conserve supplies here today sir if we are not legislating of fuel oil in the United Kingdom for our own Island within the confines and the associated islands. I agree of agreed regulations, conventions and with that very much, but I ques­ Common Purse agreements? I believe tion myself the experience of the past very much indeed, sir, that the interests which suggests to our leaders that rais­ of the consumer in the Isle of Man will ing the price of a commodity, such as best be served if we reject the resolu­ petrol, will in fact substantially reduce tion that is before us today. the consumption of that commodity. I would respectfully suggest that ciga­ Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I will not rettes and alcohol are two very good bother repeating aT the hon. member examples where over the years we have for Ayre has said but just say that I seen massive increases in the taxes or agree with what he has said. He did customs duties or whatever applied to say he believed Tynwald is being the consumers of these commodities and conned, I ¡aim sure he meant the public what has been the result? Today I of the Island are being conned. I accept would say that consumption of both has that Finance Board have probably mes­ never been higher and I foresee that merised the members of Tynwald into this will also be the position with re­ believing that there is no alternative but gard to petroleum products. We are to accept this resolution. I know per­ aware that this will have no effect what­ fectly well that one of the greatest set­ soever on traders whose businesses are backs the Finance Board had was when registered for Value Added Tax and the ten per cent. V.A.T. was reduced to therefore, sir, there is no incentive at eight per cent. They took it upon them­ all, as I see it, on them to conserve their selves that this was a personal attack consumption of fue1, but if they in fact of their policy of gathering in a lot of do consume more fuel this the ad­ money and was causing them some de­

value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. 2) Order—Approved. T210 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 ficiency in their previous estimates. We sad affairs of a neighbour’s country in can imagine their reaction when they the United Kingdom. I think the fail­ learned from the Mini Budget that ure here has been for the alternative to V.A.T. on petrol is to be .twenty-five per be put before us. I regret very much cent. Hurrah', hurrah, hurrah! There that an alternative has not been put was no thought at all of advising this before the Branches for us to make this Tynwald (Court on ho

Value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. 2) Order—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T211 to following the English economic pat­ no mistake about it, Your Excellency, tern is something that must come up the ratirement and old age pensioners very shortly in this Court and be de­ in the Isle of Man will be, because of bated. I think we are going on a little the increased costs of things and because too long with the Common Purse. The of many other things, expecting their Common Purse, while I would say, Your rise in April the same as those of the Excellency, it is another issue, it is United Kingdom, as also will the nevertheless an issue related to this families where the increases in the point and it is an issue which needs a ¡family allowances are going to be forth­ reassessment because if for no other coming. This will cost an enormous reason the Common Purse is costing us amount of money and I do say apart £J million a year, and that £J from the conserving or an attempt to million a year could be a useful local conserve the use of petrol, the money industry in collecting our own customs is very useful too. I would like to sup­ and excise—hut that is the future and port the Chairman of the Finance hon. members have every right to make Board in the suggestion that the money representations on it. Today we are will be necessary and I hope that the Eacing the reality and not the problem Court will look upon it from that angle of the future—we are facing the prob­ too. We all want the finest education lem of the day and there is no other for our children, we all want the finest way out but in honour to accept this health service that we can provide for resolution. We have tied our hands to our sick and ailing people. We all want this particular form of control, we have the best that we can for our retirement to in effect rubber stamp it today, but and old-age pensioners or those that are I am doing so happily in the knowledge sick or unable to work, but at the same that I believe it is the right and honour­ time we have to act in a responsib'e able thing to do. I would ask the Court fashion to raise the money to meet this to support it on those grounds, while at and this we are able to do. But if we the same time keeping in mind the start trimming little bits here and little' need for a complete reassessment of this bits there merely for the sake of being situation which other speakers have somewhat different I think it would be stressed as being very, very necessary. a mistake. We must bear in mind that industry itself will be able to recoup Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I can this and1 it is the private motorist, the sympathise with those who have a de­ pleasure motorist that will be------sire to get away from the particular pat­ tern particularly when it does appear, Mr. MacDonald: Tourist motorists as or could appear on occasion not to be well. necessary. I do say that this was part of a package. It was part of a package Mr. Nivison:—as he will in the Uni­ which was presented by the Chancellor ted Kingdom, as he will in the United in the U.K. and the other part of the Kingdom. Let us say that fihe amount package was the provision of sub­ of addition that he will pay if he comes stantial increases in pensions and family over to the Isle of Man and if he does allowances. These will cost an enor­ 400 miles he m ight have some 10 gallons mous amount of money and I would difference and the V.A.T. on the 10 hope that—and I am rather pleased that gallons is not an enormous amount com­ we are not deviating from phase 1 of pared with what we might lose other­ the package lest we got on the slippery wise. I would hope unpleasant though slope when it came to the second part these things are, it is always unpleasant which is the part which our residents in when we have to put things up, but how the Isle of Man will be expecting. Make pleasant it is when we are able to an­

Value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. 2) Order—Approved. T212 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 197.4

nounce that we are able to do more pay in the United Kingdom. I know for our people in the Island. I would Tynwald today will not dream, probably hope that whilst viewing the points three out of ten members would say let put forward by our hon. friends from us reverse the pattern, let us take from South Douglas and Ayre and agreeing those that can afford, all these wealthy that there is a lot in which they say ones that we have been enticing to come under the circumstances II would hope and live here, let us take from them that the Court would approve this with­ and from Manx wealthy people a bigger out much dissent. share of taxation and reduce it only for those with not so much. Let us make Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, no mistake about this, Your Excellency, whilst I can understand as long as the in the Isle of Man all right the Manx pattern is described as it is today, the worker is getting more money today, pattern, the comparative patterns be­ he is getting what, £32 a week, but tween the Isle of Man and the United with £32 a week today he is no better Kingdom are as they are, I suppose we off than he was when he was getting have very little else we can do. Quite £7 a week because costs have risen out often in the past, Your Excellency, I of all proportion and all you are going have drawn attention to the fact that to do, by accepting the system, all you the taxation patterns in the Isle of Man are going to do is eventually you will are nothing like the United Kingdom build up the balance against the lower and having listened to I believe a paid, against the ordinary worker, Labour member of the Upper House against the lower paid young person saying how we should keep in line with for the benefit of those who might well the United Kingdom, let us keep in line afford to pay much more towards the by all means, but let us not forget the cost of running our Island. — (Inter­ taxation pattern in the United King­ ruption) — I am amazed at the Chair­ dom is sixty to forty, sixty from direct man of the Tourist Board not . seeing taxation and forty from indirect. In the this, because you are happy at the Isle of Man it is the complete reverse. moment with the taxation system and We take less from direct taxation than I should think in this Court today, we do from indirect taxation, so in fact apart from possibly six or seven the ordinary ¡oerson in the street is members, the entire Court will say yes carrying a bigger burden of taxation to anything that takes it indirectly but than his equivalent does in the United does not touch the sacred cow which I . Kingdom. Be it V.A.T. or anything else believe was one of Sir Peter Stallard’s the figures are in the Isle of Man £8 sacred cows, the sacred cow of not a million from direct and £9.4 million penny on direct taxation. Until you really from indirect and so the bulk of taxa­ look at this ladies and gentlemen!, Your tion is coming indirectly from the Excellency, I do not think you can ordinary people. Your Excellency, I do possibly afford to do anything else but not think for one moment that anything crib your toes up when you are shouted will be done in Tynwald today because at for more money and accept it and Tynwald has accepted a policy of keep until you really get down to where is the taxation levels low. In other words the money coming from we are wasting those who earn a lot of money need not our time even discussing it. pay so much as they would have to in the United Kingdom. So long as we go Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I am on doing this we will be compelled to not voting for this to increase the take off the lower paid person, the revenue of the Island, but I am un­ worker, a much bigger share of the willingly voting for it because of loyalty national cake than he would have to because I believe this is a moment

Value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. 2) .Order—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T213 when we should back up the U.K. in sympathy, then I am quite certain that economising in oil. Once this situation we on Finance Board would never have is over, this petrol situation and this come forward with a resolution asking business with the Sheikhs I hope that this hon. Court to accept them because the tax will be reduced immediately, we do not accept the necessity for going because I think it is going to be very all the way with the United Kingdom. hurtful to the very people, this twenty- In fact, I think my Chairman will five-'per cent., is going to be very hurt­ probably have some words of comfort ful to the people living in the country, and joy to say on that subject. Because, the old people, the hanaicapped and all the time has come not from the point the people who need to use their cars of view of what we can expect to that cannot get it rebated for commer­ receive, but of what we can expect to cial or industrial reasons. Your Excel­ give because at the present moment our lency, I shall look forward to seeing a giving is all and we will then see how lot of very healthy people round about these psuedo-supporters of the United who have taken to shank’s mare. Kingdom Government will come, for­ (Laughter). ward at that stage when the boot is on the other foot with regard to the Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I would remarks of the hon. and gallant member like to say a word just before my for Peel. How could we at this particu­ Chairman replies if I might, because lar stage, at this the last quarter of the there have been a couple of points financial year come forward, bearing in raised I think we must be quite clear mind what we have to face from the about. The point which was raised by hon. Chairman of the Board of Social the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Clucas, Security and I think anybody in this with regard to the administration and Court /Who was tio oppose anything this question of the differential. There which he brings forward for the allevia­ is no doubt at all that anybody you tion of distress of the elderly and of know does' not have to be a genius the widowed and of those people less to see very well that in a November fortunate than ourselves if we were to budget, a greater deal of differential come forward with any opposition to throughout this particular financial this we would not dare even go home. year. This, which was designed by the So, how are we going to face this and Chancellor of the Exchequer with the look at it in the light of what the hon. object which has been put forward by and gallant member for Peel was Mr. Speaker and quite rightly so, was speaking about, at the last quarter of designed to keep it as simple as the year. Surely, if we are going to possible so that you do have your zero consider this ■jve must consider it in rated products exactly the same as you tie light of an overall annual budget had them before, so that you do have not now. For this particular exercise your eight per cent, products and we have the United Kingdom having services exactly the same as they were brought forward a measure which is before, but in this one particular aspect the only measure th^t they would dare because you have the remainder of a bring forward in this particular case. year to go it would be silly to introduce A measure which would not affect a differentials in the rate of V.A.T. and differential whicih would be unaccept­ expect people to accept them whole­ able to people of the United Kingdom, heartedly. If there had been differen­ one which can only do good in the ..Isle tials introduced which would have of Man and one which can go a little caused a great deal of difficulty in the way towards providing some of the ur­ Isle of Man and which would not have gent sum of the money which we ur­ /produced aims with Which we were in gently need. I thank that it would be

Value Added Tax and Car Tax (No. 2) Order—Approved. T214 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 very wrong of this Court to adopt the at this moment but I think we should lines which have been put forward by all appreciate why petrol was singled those who have opposed this measure out. We have zero-rated goods and we this afternoon, particularly of course the have goods rated at eight per cent. hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. Apart from that, nothing but a special Bell, where a change of colour seems to tax on petrol. I do think, Your Excel­ have taken place overnight because I lency, that we should (bear in mind the am perfectly sure that under the col­ agreement under which we operate ours in which he was elected into the which was signed on the 30th October, House of Keys if 'he were to promote 1957, and I think it m ight be as well if this sort of idealogy he would be I read two of the paragraphs of this lynched in Pulrose. agreement so that all hon. members will be aware of the Obligation we The Deputy Governor: I call upon the have. “The Isle a: Man Government hon. Chairman to reply. agree to* follow the United Kingdom in any tariff changes made in the United Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I would Kingdom (a) in their protective duties like first of a. 1 to refer to the hon. mem­ on imported goods (to) in connection ber for South Douglas and to say how with Imperial preference and (c) in glad I was that he is happy to be pursuance of commercial treaties or labelled irresponsible in view of some other international agreements. The of the things he said, not in relation Isle of Man Government also agree not to V.A.T. but in relation to the atti­ to introduce any fresh difference in tude of Finance Board to this particu­ any ou the duties involved in (a) (b) lar matter. He suggests that Finance or (c) beyond that existing at present Board is mesmerising the Court and in respect of beer. In the case of other that we threw our hats in the air when duties, taxes or similar charges on V.A.T. was increased to 25 per cent goods the Isle of Man Government will on petrol. What kind of rubbish, does not introduce any fresh difference be­ he exipect the members of this Court to tween their tariff and the United take 'any notice of that -kind of silly Kingdom tariff beyond that existing statement? We are anxious as anybody at present in respect d: .beer whether to minimise taxation and to collect as by making insular changes or failing little from the people of the Isle of to follow the United Kingdom changes Man as we possibly can. However, at except after prior Consultation with the same tim e w e have got. to m eet the the United Kingdom Government.” demands which are made upon the Now that is an agreement which was Purse and these demands are going to solemnly entered into in 1957 and be very, very substantial in the future. which is still in operation and is one To1 suggest that we are sitting there which as the hon. Speaker has said glorying in the fact that taxation is we must, follow. I am grateful to Mr. going up is the height of foolishness. Speaker and to the hon. member of the Now the hon. member Itor Ayre he did Council, Mr Nivison, for the support raise a hare, in fact I think he put up that they gave. There is only one small an Aunt Sally so that he could knock piece of information which I would it down. This is the question of the like to pass on and that is in relation variable rates of V.A.T. There is only to the remarks of the hon. Mr. Speaker one, there is only one rate change and regarding the Common Purse. I have that is the rate on petrol for a very looked very, very carefully into the particular purpose because of being a cost of collection of the tax. This was very particular commodity. There is no referred to by the hon. member for question of introducing variable rates Ayre, Mr. Clucas. The average per-

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c-antage cost of the money we receive In the Keys:— over many, many years has been not For: Messrs. Anderson, MacLeod, in excess of 1.4 per cent of the total Kermeen, Radcliffe, Miss Thorton- receipts. Now in some years it was be­ Duesbery, Messrs. Creer, Ranson, low 1.4 per cent. Now I did look up the cost to Jersey where they collect Crellin, Faragher, Mrs Quayle, Messrs. Moore, (Ward, Irving, Miss Cowin, Mr. their own duties and have no Com­ mon Purse arrangement and the cost Hislop, Sir Henry Sugden and the to Jersey is a little over three per cent Speaker. — 17. of their receipts. This is quite a con­ Against: Messrs. Clucas, Bell and siderable variation in cost. MacDonald — 3. The Speaker: Your Excellency, the Mr. Bell: What is the net benefit to voting in the House of Keys, 17 votes the community? cast in favour, 3 votes against, Your Excellency. Mr. Bolton: I am not. suggesting any­ thing albo.ut net benefit, I am answer­ The Deputy Governor: T hank you. ing the debate in which the cost of collection was mentioned. I am not In the Council:— talking about whether we should or .whether we should not. I am simply For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Bol­ saying that the cost under our Com­ ton, Quayle, Kneale, Nivison, Crowe, mon Purse arrangement is less than Kerruish and Simcocks — 8. half of the cost in collecting their own duties in Jersey. Whether it is a good Against: Nil. thing or a bad thing I am not arguing this a|:ternoon. I am merely answering The Deputy Governor: The motion this suggestion that ,the cost is heavy. is also carried unanimously in the I think that our cost under the Com­ Council, therefore carried in both mon Purse arrangement is really very branches and the motion passes. light. I do think that the Court fully realises that it is essential that we should pass this resolution on moral grounds, on legal grounds and further­ DEVELOPMENT OF more on the grounds that we shall re­ MOUNT HAVELOCK CAR PARK — quire this money to implement the pro­ REJECTED. gramme which is being (brought upon us: solely by inflation and I beg to The Deputy Governor: Let us return move. then to the main Agenda. Item num­ b er 6. Car Parking. I call on the Chair­ man of the Sub-Committee of Execu­ The Deputy Governor: The motion tive Council dealing with the Central is that the Value Added Tax and Car G overnm ent /Offices to move. Tax (No. 2) O rder 1974 be and the same is hereby approved. Those in Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, I beg favour please say aye and those to move:— against say no. 1 think the ayes have it. WHEREAS the copy of a surveyor’s report on the condition of the car park A division was called for and voting in Mount Havelock circulated to mem­ resulted as follows:— bers of Tynwald indicates that building

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work will have to be undertaken soon but for the fact that there was a very to render the site safe. bad crack in the wail in Finch Road. Be­ cause, when we did have .a price for AND WHEREAS it is considered ex­ doing this work to make ® two tier car pedient to develop the site to provide park there we thought the price was pro­ the additional car-parking facilities re­ hibitive and it looks prohibitive. The ferred to in the drawing circulated to only thing we have got to take into con­ members of Tynwald. sideration and remember that if you are going to have a multi-storey car park NOW THEREFORE Tynwald— and this is what we have got to have be.ore so long in Douglas, tnis is going (a) approves a scheme to develop the to take somewhere in the same region car park in Mount Havelock in ac­ of money per space to put it up. This cordance with the drawing at a is what we have been told by experts. cost not exceeding £108,000; Therefore, it is up to Tynwald today to see if they are in agreement with this (b) authorises the Treasurer of the resolution going forward. We have Isle of Man to advance out of asked Messrs. Parkinson for a price and capital monies during the yea» the price they have given us is ending 31st March 1975 a sum not £108,000. This does not mean to say exceeding £70,000 to enable the that this will be the price that we will projected scher.¡.s to be under­ accept as a tender. This has possibly taken; yet to go out to tender and let other contractors put in a price for doing this (c) approves of and sanctions bor­ work. There is no doubt that this will rowings not exceeding the sum of mean 24 more spaces than we have at £70,000 being made by Govern­ the moment but the cost we understand ment under the provisions of the from experts of repairing the wall in Isle of M an Loans A ct 1974 for Finch Road which means, really the the above purpose, such borrow­ wall from Mount Havelock right down ings to be repaid within a period through this was going to cost a con­ of 20 years. siderable amount of money. I do not know where they get the prices from There is one thing, Your Excellency, but I suppose everything is expensive that is incorrect in the way this resolu­ today. This is something we have got tion is formed. This is the way that it to wear and something we have got to is put in the name of the Chairman of put up with but this will mean 48 spaces this sub-Committee and I have already and it will cost about £2,000 a space. apologised to the two other members of We have tried to extend each side of the G.P.T.’s ('laughter). I did say that where the car park now is and buy more I would withdraw this if they so wished land if possible. At the moment the and they said that they would be agree­ owners do not wish to sell because they able if I made this apology and I do it cannot find alternative accommodation without any compunction because it was to fit in with their requirements. I think, wrong because as we know the slippery when it will be possible, they would sell slope does belong to the G.P.T.’s and to us and one of them, I think, was therefore if anything was to be done reasonable, he said I bought it to use it there it should have been the G.P.T.’s myself, I do not want to make a profit name that was before it. As far as this out of Government and if you can give resolution is concerned, sir, I do not me a space whereby I could put up the think that anyone would have come for­ same type of building that I require ward with a resolution of this nature there I will be only too happy to sell it

Development of Mount Havelock Car Park—Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T217 to Government without making a profit. park there by a Government building This is what one of the owners told us. which has been created and designed on At .the moment as far as car parking is expert advice, which had the net result concerned we have been led up the gar­ of reducing the car parking space in the den, this committee, because we have vicinity and*, thereby increasing from a been talking to the members of Douglas planning point of view the number of Corporation for well over two years and vehicle spaces required not only for staff at the last meeting we had. they which is to be increased but by the promised us that the multi-storey car members of the public who of necessity park in Chester Street would be out for because of this ridiculous and stupid tender ,by January last. Now that is planning have to come to this new what we were told at one of our last building. Now, we are being asked be­ meetings with the Corporation. This is cause the local authority have not put not going forward and the likelihood up a multi-storey car park which was seems to be that it will not go forward part of the blackmail job that the ex­ unless Government will take a hand in perts had advised should be the policy it. We will have a certain amount of to pursue, some sub-Committee of Gov­ car spaces at the back of the new build­ ernment is now so embarrassed that they ings, somewhere in the region of 28 and think it is going to look so ridiculous these 48 will be helpful if they are ap­ having a Government building with no proved. There is very little else I can car parking for the staff or for the mem­ say about it, the cost is terrific I admit bers of the 'Legislature that they are but to put up a new multi-storey park trying to crash this resolution through will cost per space about the same price on the flimsiest case there has ever been and there is nothing more I can do, sir, for the spending of public money at but move. I beg to move. times, as illustrated today, of acute financial stresses. Sureiy in these days Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, do we should be encouraging people to you think it is reasonable to ask any walk to work. firm to give you a price for doing a car park' and then put it out to tender after Mr. MacDonald: Come on the ’bus. it has' been publicly discussed here. I think this is entirely wrong to ask any­ Mr. Bell: Or come on the buses of the body to give you a: price for doing a job local authorities. Not talk about pro­ and then you are going to ask the other viding car parks for people to come from tenderers what they are going to give, Circular Road and Demesne Road, they are certainly going to give ¡may be most of the people in Douglas travelling a’ coup?e of bob less than that and I less than 100 yards. think that that is entirely wrong. Mr. MacLeod: What about those com­ Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I am al­ ing from Cronk-y-Voddy? most ashamed to be a member of Tyn­ wald when this is the sort of stuff that Mr. Anderson: I see a chauffeur to we have put before us. I have no in­ have a car outside there now and again. tention of voting for it. I think in twelve months’ time when this car park Mr. Bell: To sum up without making is. up on expert’s advice, built on the a big thing of this absolute nonsense this site'that was* built on experts advice for is the s'.upid'est resolution that has ever ground floor parking, used by the people been brought to this Court and if one who bought Kingswood Grove on expert thing has caused my telephone to ring advice and then had to shore it up with from the public of this Island and ask reinforced concrete. To allow cars to me to speak against this it has been this

Development öf Mount Havelock Car Park—Rejected. T218 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 idiotic proposal to waste public money awful lot of people are going to have in this slipshod, crazy way in which the to leave their cars in the garage, come suib-Committees of Executive Council in from Ramsey, Castletown, and any­ have created a pattern .and a design for where else on the bus and then walk future madness and other committees to here if necessary. I think this is abso­ follow them, this is crazy. lutely ridiculous. If it had not been in the same position Your Excellency, on Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I the Agenda but following straight on too will vote against this. I think it is that earlier debate when we have been an absolute insult to the intelligence of .told how desperate things are, in Ifact the Manx public to expect them to we were almost getting to the slate of swallow this sort of thing today. We issuing petrol coupons. Here we are 'have been talking about how dire now going to encourage everybody to straits are, how the country is in a bad use their motor cars, 48 lovely berths, way, Britain, that we must conserve £2,000 a time. I had to criticise, quite fuel and here we are going to create 48 recently, an elderly persons Home, an car parking spaces for the privileged extension I think it was. This was go­ members of Tynwald or privileged civil ing to cost us about £2,000 per old per­ servants. This is utter rubbish as the son. Well I think per old person is hon. member for Douglas South says. I worth more to me and the people I would much rather see, if we had represent than per motor car no matter £100,000 to spare, the money spent on whether it is a Rolls-Royce or Rover or creating perhaps 12 new homes for some anything else. If we have £100,000 to of the 80 young people on the housing spare, Your Excellency, let lis spend it lists in Pee!, or what is it 500 people on on something useful. the housing lists in Douglas? I would much rather see the money go to this. Mr. Radclifte: Your Excellency, I do I do not think it will harm anyone in not want to get involved in any argu­ •this Court or any civil servant to walk ments today in reference to the oil sup­ from the Sea Terminal if he wants to. plies or whether we should travel into He can park down there, it will do him Douglas by car or travel in to Douglas good, he c-an park down there with his by bicycle or travel into Douglas by ’bus car, he can park down along the prome­ or how we travel in the future. The nade, it will be difficult in the summer situation is and I think we should face because then everybody else, all the up to this, we have a car park at the other taxpayers want to park their cars present moment in that area and that as well. car park without any question within the next few months and possibly with­ A member: The ones out of town. in the distance of a year is going to be very seriously involved in possibly an Mr. MacDonald: Yes, the ones out of accident in Finch Road so (a) we have town but I think, Your Excellency, that got a car park'— today as we are so desperately short of fuel and this I will accept. This could get even worse. Until the Israelis get Mr. Bell: Close it. out of the west bank, and this is the crux of it, there is no doubt, about it Mr. Radcliffe: You have had your the Ardbs will constantly put the pres­ say so just be quiet for one moment if sure on and no one is going to do that that is possible. until the pressure will come on more and more and more. We may as well Mr. Bell: The Corporation will close face up to it now and say, right an it.

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The Deputy Governor: The hon. mem- inson’s for the simple reason they were ber- ior Ayre has the floor. the people building the new Govern­ ment offices and they asked them for a Mr. RadcJffe: We have gat a car rough guide as to what it would cost. park at'the present ¡moment that is suit­ The last time we had a price in for our able for taking on 24 motor cars and Fire Station we found that the first nearly everybody that has spoken tenders were in excess of the final ac­ against this idea of providing a oar park cepted price of somewhere in the region in that area are the people that use it. of £50,000 or £60,000. There is nothing whatever to stop the Government Mr. MacDonald: Because it is there, Property Trustees going back on this yes: situation and getting firm tenders for doing it. I think we have got to agree on the principle first of all whether or Mr. Radcliffe: We have taken that fact. not we think what is there at the present ¡moment is satisfactory to remain there Mr. Bell: We do not all use it. and if it is not how are we going to alter it and put something more suitable :; Mr. Radcliffe: We have got a car park, there. I have spoken to the planning wpl possibly your Rolls-Royce would officer about parking on the ground floor r&frget on to it. , Anyhow the situation cf this area and we must not close our is at the 'moment, as I say, we have got eyes to it, if we are going to find within one tier on that place which is extreme­ the next few years, somebody is going to ly ‘"dangerous. The Government, who- develop Chester Street/Wellington ever they may be, the Government Square, which I sincerely hope will be Property Trustees with due respect to done and I sincerely hope it will be done them will, in the future, have to face up very shortly, we are going to find that to removing that position that is there in this area of Finch Road we then could and .creating something there that will have a piece of ground extremely valu­ be suitable to use. Underneath that car able to the Government because if we park at the present time, the ground be- did not decide to keep it as a car park, lc>w it which is nothing but an embank- once it has been converted into some­ meiit of soil belongs to the Manx Gov­ thing sultaible, it would be without any ernment right down to the level of Finch difficulty converted then into either Road. The only thing that I can see at shopping or storage space. This, within this present moment that has been con­ the .town of Douglas is very, very valu­ troversial here this afternoon, the prin­ able indeed. The point at issue here is, cipal issue is whether or not this is go­ are we prepared today to say we have ing to cost too much to do it. What has got to improve this area and we have happened in the past with every Board got to get on and do it very quickly and oifr'4His hoh^'Couit'that comes forward we tell the Government Property Trus­ at ^Estimate timS’in March, we have put tees to go out to tender and find out and forward iti our figures estimates of what come back with the price. This is the we--assume it is likely to cost to do cer­ main issue as I see it, not to just throw tain E things. ' To me that is no guide this resolution out completely and say whatsoever of what it finally will be. I, we are having nothing further to do as. one of this committee, said at the with it because if you do that you will {fine, I certainly would not go along have to face up to having to repair what with the idea that this would be based is there already anyhow. So do not lose on a figure submitted by Parkinson’s or sight of that fact. It is very, very im­ any other person. The people designing portant that that is done and it will this oar park have consulted with Park­ have to be done.

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Mr. Bell: Well just close the car park our kiosks as far as telephoning is con­ if it is dangerous. cerned or doors that open as though it were a big airport like Heathrow. Your Mr. Spittall: It will still fall down. Excellency I think it is ridiculous for the hon. member for South Douglas to Mr. Railcli/Fe: And what will hap­ talk in this vein when we know that pen then? some of the things ior which he himself has been responsible not for something Mr. Bell: That is all you have to do? to build a house but to demolish a house. I would like to know what the car park­ Mr. Radcliffe: That may be the hon. ing space underneath that house has members point of view Your Excellency, cost, that house Your Excellency was but I feel and having consulted with worth some £12,000. surveyors belonging to the Government and architects on this that this develop­ Mr. Bell: Well we will sell it to you, ment is absolutely essential whether or we have got it down on the pay track. not the figure at this moment is the cor­ rect one it is up to the Government Property Trustees to find out. However, Mr. Anderson: It is a different thing I think the principle of getting this Your Excellency when somebody else made into a two tier car park is one we comes forward. I, like everybody else should get on with. regret the price of the thing as far as this is concerned but what we have got Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I to face at this point in time is the fact think some hon. members of this House that the Government Property Trustees have a very short memory. own some property which is a danger. Something has got to be done with it. The Speaker: We remember all right. We have pot to face the position, not what i': was or how we came to Mr. MacDonald: We remember the have it, who was responsible for mak­ whole thing! ing it or whether the people who ad­ vised it at that time were right or Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, would wrong. The fact is that it is there today you mind giving me just a minute to and we have got to do something to say what I iam going to say. make it safe. Is it not better to be con­ structive and take the plunge although The Deputy Governor: The hon. mem­ it may cost quite a bit of money and ber for Glenfaba has the floor. make it into something useful for the future? Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, the hon. member for South Douglas not very Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I have long a^o -brought before this hon. Court along with the hon. member for Ayre, a resolution which was for a sum of Mr. Radc iffe and the Chairman of the money, not to provide houses, but to Government Property Trustees, Mr. take down a very substantial and good Crowe, been looking at these matters for residence and have a look down there some considerable time. now Your Excellency to see what the re­ sult is. Have a look round Your Excel­ The Speaker: Part of the trouble! lency, and the hon. members of this (laughter). Court to- see—since the hon. member for South Douglas became the Chairman of Mr. Bolton: I have no doubt it was the Airports Board we have changed all very funny, I did not hear it.

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Mr. Irving: Part of the trouble, some­ Mr. Bolton: You have to have legs of one suggested that. different lengths, I agree. At the same time Your Excellency, I would like to Mr. Bolton: Well of course that could put this case forward that this is not a be the opinion, I mean there is always question of anybody having made any somebody who thinks it would be much mistake or anybody coming forward better if he had been looking at it. At glibly with a suggestion that we should the same time, I think that I do want spend this money. The ski slope is •to say this that nobody has been more there, it is a danger in itself at the shocked at the rising costs of this kind moment to Finch Road and to any traffic of scheme than we have on the Commit­ in Finch Road and the car parking tee — I have in particular been shocked facilities that it provides are required. to realise how much this kind of work In those circumstances what do we do costs. However, I do want to suggest about it but grasp the nettle and spend to you first of all that if anyone takes the money now when we already have a walk around the area apart altogether notices that if we leave it even for six from the question of Government office months it may cost us 50 per cent, more parking at the present time and see than the figure that is down in the whether there is anywhere between here Agenda. This is what is happening and half-way to Onchan where you can every day. I would suggest that the leave a ear at all. It is essential that Court should support the resolution. I car parking places should be provided. can fully understand everybody being It is not everybody that is permitted to shocked at the cost of doing it, but we leave them on double yellow lines, (loud have beiore us even in the buildings laughter). However, the difficulty is try­ next door an example where we have ing to find somewhere else where there been told that had we delayed even for are not yellow lines or somebody else’s six months in starting that building the car. I thinik though, Your Excellency, cost would probably have been 50 per that we should bear in mind that there cent, more than it will be. This is an is this dreadful congestion and that object lesson in getting on with the job there is a necessity for car parking. In today rather than putting it off and making enquiries into car parking and finding that later on we have to do it this has been done very carefully with at a very increased cost. I am afraid regard to the possibility of multi-storey this is all that will happen in this par­ car parks down in the Chester Street ticular case. area, we discovered, not today, but some months ago and prices are esca­ lating all the time, that it was going to Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I am cost at least £2,000 a car to build a car not ashamed at all to be a member of park. I say at least £2,000 a car. Here Tynwald with this item on the Agenda, is a situation where this cost falls with­ indeed I value very much the delicious in the £2,000 a car in addition to which sense of humour which permeates many we know that we have a property there of the debates in this Chamber and I which is a danger and which, at any regard this resolution purely as an en­ time, may collapse into Finch Road and tertaining diversion. Quite frankly, I even if it were to stand up for some really do once again question the wis­ time, it is a most dangerous area for dom of re-building the central Govern­ parking. I do not think anybody who ment office complex on the present site uses it is very happy about driving onto in Bucks Road and I come back yet that ski slope at any old time. again to saying that it would seem to me that the resolution before us now is Mr. Kneale: You have got to have a a direct consequence of that initial, to long leg and a short one. me, calamitous decision. This is yet

Development of Mount Havelock Car Park—Rejected. T222 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 another victim of that mistake. I come then of course we come to the question back yet again to the Forestry Board of inflation. If we add the three figures ■and reiterate that, having made further I have given at the moment, that comes enquiries on this subject, I am utterly to £1,058,000, and I venture to suggest convinced that they too have taken the that it will not be long before, either in decision to move out of Douglas because the guise of the Chairman of the' Gov­ they were, if you like, gently assisted to ernment Property Trustees, or Chair­ reach that decision. man of the sub-committèe of Exco, a further resolution will be moved by the Mr. Spittal': Nonsense. hon. mover of this present resolution to enable the actual cost, the actual cost, to be met out of the Government vote. Mr. Clucas: No. It may be nonsense When I turn, if I may, briefly to another officially, but I happen to have made .member of that sub-committee, the hon.. further enquiries and reiterate what I member of the Council, Mr. Bolton, I have. said. was most impressed by his contribution, because frankly I have never heard à Mr. Spittall: Were they at the better argument for not having buil^on Forestry Board? Bucks Road, saying th at there is jÎÎàïTnô. car parking space between here arid" Oit-, Mr. Clucas: Well no. There are other chan. I well remember in the original' people involved and they have a dif­ debate being chided by the same hon.. ferent story to tell. That is not the main member for suggesting that some of the. point, Your Excellency, we might just civil servants must come in by car ànâ look for a moment .at the costs leading that we cannot afford to be providing up to this. Three years a^o and I have car parking spaces for all these civil ser­ still got the sheet of paper which in fact vants. What a different story now. Of was circulated giving four options to course we have the problem of the cal­ Government. We chose the cheapest, culations Your Excellency having gone three and a half floors, I think, or two somewhat awry. Some one was banking and a half floors, at a total cost of on the Chester Street, Wellington Street £799,000 this was accepted for building area being developed by now and lo thé in Bucks Road. Then a year or two inevitable happened! later, in I think June 1973, the hon. mover came forward as Chairman of Mr. Bell: The predictable. this same committee with a resolution which was passed giving another Mr. Clucas: Yes, the predictable has £151,000 to finish off that top half floor. happened, stagnation abounds and we That made a total of £950,000 and I am are in a predicament. I accept that, not talking about inflation these are just but I feel myself that it would be easier the original resolutions and now we for us to stomach, as members of Tyn­ have a suggestion for a further wald, if the hon. members who sup7' £108,000 and the reason, and why I oorted the original resolution in the think this is so pertinent is because the face of the dire warnings that were original figure of £799,000 included 30 given that they could, perhaps, have car parking spaces. I understand that— been wrong on that occasion but there the hon. mover may well be able to cor­ is no sign of that at all. In fact. I, per­ rect me—il understand that there is not sonally, feel the placing of this ' reso­ to be room now in the central Govern­ lution on the Agenda represents a ter­ ment complex for 30 cars so that would rible squandering of public money, if eliminate over half the spaces that we approved and I think is tactless in. the are talking about at the moment and extreme. Indeed I believe myself that

Development of Mount Havelock Car Park—Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T223

it could really toe interpreted as purely going to support the resolution funnily making the toes!; out a? a very bad job. enough. I was one of the members a? Government Property Trustees when Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, I am we bought this property and we got it going to oppose this action too, purely very cheap at the time, somewhere on the grounds that I feel that the around £600, if 0 remember rightly. figures contained in this mo'ion are We heard the hon. member for North completely unrealistic. Even in these Douglas just saying about bulldozing days of inflation I consider that be­ out to make a level car pai’k in the cause of the building boom in the Finch Roadt Well the main thing in Island and because of the fact that we this contract, Your Excellency, is what have about three main builders who it is going to cost for the retaining can do this type of job, they do not wall going to hold the Mount Havelock want this which is comparatively, even road up. If you bulldoze that out in at £108,000, a small job. They do not Finch Road you would have almost the want it and they just put the figures same cost as you would for doing the down and send it in to us and we have finished job. There is one thing which got to accept. This is the reason that I do like about the plan, Your Excel­ I am going to oppose it because I feel lency, that is if ever the multi-car that, at this particular point in time, park in Chester Street ever takes place what we should be doing is getting rid and we found that this was not suit­ of the danger, we should pull that car able it could be turned into shops or park out of the place that it is in now, stores or anything which would be bulldoze through the bottom of it and very valuable. I think this is worth put car parking, even half the car doing. I am not paying any attention parking spaces, 24/30 on the floor of at all to the mover of the resolution Finch Road so that at least we know when he said £108,000 because I think we are safe where we are parking that is ridiculous. Whoever he asked even if it is out to half for the time being for that, he said Parkinscns, I do not until we see what is happening to think they measured it or anything, I Chester Street. We will stil: own the think they just guessed it. I must warn site, it will still be a valuable si'e re­ the Court that the money that is going gardless oj: what development takes to be spent on this will be well worth place and surely if the Government doing — Property Trustees would have another look at it in that respect to find out Mr. Bell: No matter what it costs? how much it would cost to bulldoze the area out and let us have our cars on Mr. Creer: The cost will be the re­ the floor of Finch Road, we would then taining wall to hold up Mount Have­ know we are in a safe place, maybe lock. not so many car parks, tout at least we would toe in a safe district and we The Speaker: Your Excellency, the would not be spending £108,000 . . . Court is learning the hard way about the advisability of putting its Ifate in Mr Bolton: £40,000. the hands of experts and political marionettes and from the beginning.. . Mr. Bell: Not at all. Mr. Bell: With or without carna­ Mr. Moore: By supplying the parks tions! that we want. The Speaker: With or without carna­ Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, I am tions. From the beginning this has been

Development of Mount Havelock Car Park—Rejected. T224 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 a story that has a particu'arly bad odour is what has been absent in this particu­ to it, because the warnings were clear. lar project and we are paying dearly for The site was obviously wrong, but the the association of the Chairman with planners who led these people by the this committee today and naturally the nose convinced them that everything lack of foresight, of course, is an ob­ was well and to proceed on this delight­ vious one. But when we are told this ful site with a Colditz type building afternoon we are going to produce some would be the dream of Island’s Govern­ small number of car parking spaces ment coming true. I have been in­ along here, again we are told, in associa­ terested in the development as it has tion with this idea, that the committee gone on; notice that the inadequacies have been led up the garden for years which were pointed out in regard to by the Corporation, for over two years, ' parking and so on are being dealt with but as recently as July of-this year the in the same way as the original concept, re-development of Chester Street was piecemeal and without any regard for progressing m ore quickly and it .¡was the people that matter and the people still the sub-committee’s intention to ob­ that matter in this case and the people tain for use of Government 130 car we are supposed to be serving are the parking spaces in the area. I assume pub’ic. This building was put here for these have to be paid for. You see this the benefit of the public. is only part of the story we are getting this afternoon and obviously I think- Mr. Bell: And paid for by them as that this is the wrong way of setting well. about it. I wou’d rather see Govern­ ment develop a proper multi-storey car The Speaker: Access, ready access! No park in Chester Street right now, take access whatever is being proposed for over the full responsibility for it and do the public in this resolution. When a proper job. Never mind this piece­ ■there w ere m em bers of this C ourt who meal stuff, let us have a proper answer. put forward the idea of another concept I urged Government years ago to take entirely with adequate car parking in over car parking responsibility in Dou­ proper settings and so on it was con­ glas. What did they do? They ran away demned but it took a visit toy the Chair­ from it and said we will assist, knowing man of the Finance Board to Colombo full well that no-one was going to accept to come back with a report which seems the responsibility. Today Government to have brought a new ray of lieht into must face up to it and with the need for his thinking and to see sense in making 130 or more car parking spaces for pub­ provision for adequate Government ad­ lic and our own people’s use around this ministration departments, (interrup­ area it is obvious that the real answer tions) . If you have read the report you is for Government to go down there and will see an interesting contribution build a multi-storey car park itself, not which nays tribute to the foresight, if iool about in this particular way. That, you like, of the Sri Lanka administra­ I think, Your Excellency, is the con­ tion which is obviously lacking here. I structive way of tackling this. I am go­ would make this point to hon. members, ing to oppose the resolution which I there is a lesson to be learnt from this think is again just another sample of and it is one that is very clear to me. Do the mis-Government we have been sub­ not put any member of Finance Board jected to and more than that the . pig­ on a committee of this sort in future as headed mis-Government we have been it deprives the Court of having the ad­ subjected to. We have had some experi­ vantage of a detached Finance Board’s ence of this and really it is time the scrutiny of the proposals. That is what committee got down to some real think­ the Finance Board was created for, that ing on this issue and the real thinking

Development of Mount Havelock Car Park—Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T225 of course in the long term is sell the lot shovel and the moment it goes in the and get out on to a new site. That is history book it is the G.P.T.’s. This is the real answer, but in the meantime something I dislike intensely and this we have to live with it and let us live is what is happening. There is no ques­ with it in the 'best possible way by mak­ tion about that. You have done all this ing provision at Chester Street and not building work and all the car park in this area. which has to be supported because it is going to i.all down anyway, but this has Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, I find a 1 been done in committee, whatever myself agreeing mostly with Mr. you like, and the moment it is entered Speaker. I have opposed this building into the Statute Book, the G.P.T.’s did all the way and I am not going to repeat this in history in years to come. Well I it. Ever since it was started, I could see do not like that. all the troubles surrounding it. ' When the suggestion was made by Mr. Mr. Irving: I will be very brief Your Speaker that the Government should Excellency. I do not wish to enter into step in and build a car park down below any arguments about the siting of Gov­ here, to me this is an excellent thing to ernment buildings, but I do agree with do for a simple reason that we are sup­ Mr. Speaker what we should be aiming plying car parking then for the people at now is a multi-storey car park in the coming into Douglas, not for the Don­ Chester Street/Wellington Square area g'as people really, because they already and forgetting the proposal in front of have car parkins, but I think that Gov­ us today. The hon. member for Rus- ernment should support and finance the hen, Mr. Faragher, has said what is building of a car park somewhere in needed is a car park for the general this vicinity for the people of the Island public near Government offices. Is this, who have to visit this building from sir, to be a car park for the general time to time, who must find somewhere public. I opposed this car park in the to park their cars. It is going to be first p’ace because I understood it was ridiculous for a middle-aged person if for members of Tynwald and officials of you like, to come along here on a wet Government and I believe that members day, this can be a dreadful corner, to of Tynwald and officials of Government do business at Government offices and should pay for their car park the same they have got to walk 200/300 yards as everybody else. I would not mind it from where they have left their car. so much if a charge were made and it Surely this should have been thought of was available for the general public but before. I think we must go along those it is not Free car parks for the boys lines and assist financially in the build­ costing several thousand pounds a head, ing of a car park within reach of Gov­ that is not just a fringe benefit, to my ernment buildings. The other part that mind it is an outrage! I think it is an rea'ly hurts me, being a member of the insult to the Manx taxpayer and I be­ Government Property Trustees I have lieve that the proposal before us today asked for a long time as Mr. Creer will to spend another £108,000 on car park­ vouch, I was on at him when he first ing for the boys—this monstrous, ridicu­ went on it—I enjoy the work of the lous fringe benefit—I believe it is Government Property Trustees, the damned scandalous. work is excellent, it keeps you in­ terested and you do your best for the Mr. Ranson: Your Excellency, I have Island in general, but what I do dislike listened to the debate up to now and: I is other committees, I was going to say am very very much with the Speaker’s something, but I had better not, making point of view to the effect that eventu­ a mess, sweeping it up, putting it on the ally the car parking problem which,

Development of Mount Havelock Car Park—Rejected. T226 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 w hether we attem pt to solve it in t'he or any debate, or any such action of this piecemeal way as per this plan, or the Tynwald, or the House of Keys to get better way of a three or four storey car something done about it. I think that park in the Chester Street area, for the is number one and I think that is ■moment is by th e way. One thing is priority, because no matter hew long we certain that the oar parking problem go on arguing about- this and apparent­ will grow not get less, and to me a com­ ly from my feeling of the temperature mon or garden ordinary member of this of the meeting here today, I would think hon. Court, the more sensible way is to that it was - going to take a long time ■go- through a three or four storey car before the car park is built on a slippery park, build a suitable building on top of slope, especially at £108,000 for another that which can be let to private enter­ extra 24 spaces, unless my mathematics prise, or used for Government purposes, is very wrong. Having said that I agree Which after all we are already informed, so much with what Mr. Speaker has our brand new building is not now big said and no matter how we may bandy enough to accommodate everybody we words when I first discussed this subject want—that is before it is opened even I wore one of Mr. Kneale’s other hats and, if we did not want to do it that way and, of course, we were not told, when it could be let to private enterprise or I debated this particular problem as a something that would 'be suitable to Councillor, of what the cost was going assist the tourist industry in some form to be, or indeed that the particular re­ or other. I think these are points that taining wall was in danger. I am horri­ are well worth considering. fied, Your Excellency, when I think to­ day that people are in danger in Finch The Deputy Governor: The hon. mem­ Road of having a total collapse there in ber for Douglas South, Mr. Ward. a-short while and I would say that num­ ber one is that it must be closed I think - Mr. Ward: Your Excellency, members, for public safety.and quite possibly now I do not know whether it takes a par­ that this is made public and that the ticular brand of courage to get your feet Press has got it, I think that the only wet in the particular climate which has thing that the Government Property been exercised .in the last half hour, but Trustees, or whatever we call them, can I must join'the people who want to see do is to close that particular car- park. this particular resolution as a non­ For the future, I want to-join so much starter, principally because I think there in what Mr.' Speaker says, we should are a couple of points that I would like be thinking how not of. spending to make. The first is that having been £108,000 there, because in all the de­ interested most of my working life in bates on this particular subject—and a industrial safety I am very alarmed, lot of the previous subject -about taxa­ very perturbed as a matter of fact, how tion and one thing and another was per­ flippantly we can talk today of the fact haps slightly above my head at this par­ that the slippery slope, or the ski slope ticular time—but nobody has spoken run as you people have named it in the about the taxpayers in this particular first place, could- perhaps be a public item. I can tell you, although there is danger within a very short while. Per­ one point on which I do disagree with sonally speaking and, of course, I may my brother member.for South Douglas, stand correction here, I do not know, I ■and that is I always uphold a principle would not have thought that this par­ and perhaps this is easy to assume, ticular sirte was in the danger men­ knowing my background, that there is tioned in the particular circular I have a prerogative for employers to supply just read a few minutes ago, that it parking places for their employees.. . I would have, taken any Act of Tynwald, think this goes without , saying and I

Development of3 Mount. Hayelock Car Park--Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T227 would always support this, but I cer­ they will be beneficial to the Isle of Mari tainly do not think this is the way to do and they should be helpful to the people, it and I think we should be going for­ who are going to use them and they ward now, Your Excellency, with the shou’d be a saving. There was never a idea of whatever money can be spent let time when we were going to have the, us get it spent and organise a proper buildings here that we were not going car park at the bottom end of Finch to be short of car parks and everyone.' Road. in this Court wants a new multi-storey car park in Douglas, because we know The Deputy Governor: I call on the perfectly well that Douglas is losing hon. member of Council to reply. trade because it has not got car spaces and we do know that in Peel, when they Mr. Crowe: Could I start at the finish, made the little car park, that some of sir, and congratulate the new member the shops there within a very short time for South Douglas, Mr. Ward, on his put their business up by 50 per cent, maiden speech (hear, hear) and natu­ within a week or two, but this is just rally we are pleased to have him here by the way. Car parks are going to be’ and we hope that his stay will be he'p- expensive. One of the most sensible ful to the Isle of Man and to the Manx speeches this afternoon was Mr. Creer’s, people. There is no doubt that going the hon. member for Middle (interrup­ back well over 20 years, Your Excel­ tions). He mentioned what was reason lency, this new G overnm ent Office has able and what was sensible, because he been a bone of contention and it still is said if you say this is dangerous, if you and the people who did not get their are going to pull it down you have got own way and have something in the to do something about the wall which nature of what they have in Northern holds up Mount Have’ock, and this is Ireland are always on the jump about it. only reasonable and this is going to cost This is possibly, in their opinion, cor­ somewhere in the region of £30,000 to rect, as it is in some of our opinion that do without a car park, (interruptions). this is the correct place for Central Gov­ They are not my figures, they are not ernment Offices, within the town. As my figures, these are figures that experts you will remember at Stormont in the who are supposed to know what costs old days they said we wi 1 move out of are in the Building Industry and if we Belfast, we are going to have our Gov­ turn this down this afternoon without ernment buildings away out of the town making a car park we have got to go to and within a very short time they were the expense of putting a wall in to hold­ moving back into Belfast and having up Mount Havelock and Finch Road, it their headquarters of the different is as simple as that. I do not want to Boards and the different Ministries spend a lot of money, it has always been within the town. against my principles to spend a lot of money but we have got to do something The Speaker: How far out is Stor­ about it and if you do not spend the mont? money today to put 48 car spaces there you are going to spend the money to Mr. Crowe: Stormont is out quite a put no spaces only a blank wall up. I distance and relatively I suppose where think the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. we were going to have ours was out of Clucas, did mention about car spaces at town quite a distance for anyone who the back of the building, there will be would have to walk. We have got our at least 28 spaces there beside, if we Government Buildings, at least I hope put in Finch Road 48 there, 76 spaces, we have, they are going forward and I that will be 76, and that should be help­ hope they will be efficient and I hope ful towards the new multi-storey car

Development of Mount Havelock Car Park—Rejected.“ T228 TYNWALD' COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

park which will eventually come and I be an appropriate time to adjourn for think that the only reason Government tea? is still talking to Douglas Corporation through, the Local Government Board Members: Most appropriate. and the sooner they come to an agree­ ment and say can we do something with The Deputy Governor: The Court will Chester iStreet the sooner Government stand adjourned until half past four. will be out and putting in a car park, it is as simple as that and I ask you The Court adjourned for tea. to accept this resolution because if you do not a lot oi money has got to be spent for no purpose whatsoever. I beg to move sir. PETITION OF LAXEY VILLAGE COMMISSIONERS—SALE OF LAND The Deputy Governor: Those in fav­ TO L.G.B. FOR FIRE ST A T IO N - our of the resolution please say aye; REFERRED TO A SELECT against, no. COMMITTEE

A division was called for and voting The Deputy Governor: We will resume resulted as follows:— with Petitions, item 26 on the main Agenda. I cail on the Chairman of the In the Keys: Isle of Man Local Government Board.

For: Messrs. Anderson, Kermeen, Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, in Radcliffe, Creer, Spittall, Crellin, respect of the Petition of the Laxey Faragher, Miss Cowin and Mr. His- Village Commissioners to the Isle of lop — 9. Man Local Government Board for ap­ proval of the sale to the Board, for the Against: Messrs. MacLeod, Clucas, sum of £135 of a plot of land situate Miss Thornton-Duesbery, Mr. Ran- abutting uipon Glen Road, Laxey, and son, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, containing 1,729 square metres or Bell, Ward, Irving, MacDonald, Sir thereabouts for use as a site £or a Henry Sugden and the Speaker—12. future fire station.

The Speaker: Your Excellency, the 1 beg to: move:— resolution has failed to carry in the House of Keys 9 votes being cast in T hat this Petition be referred to a favour and 12 votes against. Select Committee of Tynwald for con­ sideration and report. In the Council: This is a relatively minor matter For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Bolton, concerning a plot of land abu'ting Quayle, Kneale, Crowe and Ker- upon Glen Road, Laxey, of approxi­ ruish — 6. m ately 1,729 square m etres in area w’hich has been sold to the Board by Against: Messrs. Nivison and Sim- the Petitioners for the sum q: £135 to cocks — 2. use as a s-te for a future fire station and formal approval is now sought The Deputy Governor: The motion is for such transaction. The arrange­ carried in the Council but has lost in ments made are of course in the best the Keys therefore the Branches do not interests of the Petitioners’ district in agree and the motion falls. Would now securing for the Board land for the

Petition of Daxey Village Commissioners—Sale of Land to L.G.B. For Fire Station—Referred to a Select Committee TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T229 future special purpose 1 have already Mr. Corlett: No, Your Excellency. mentioned. In normal circumstances such a Petition addressed to the Board The Deputy Governor: Right, thank would be dealt w ith toy the Board in you. the proper exercise of its statutory powers, but in view of its immediate Mr. Creer: Your Excellency. I am involvement in this ¡particular case, as going to support the P etition tout I do the purchasers of the land, the Board think this is completely wrong, the considers it improper to deal with Local Government Board 'buying 1,729 this Petition. Therefore, having regard square metres for £135. I know that to the specific provisions contained in this service is required in Laxey — a the Local Government Acts of 19'50 new fire station, tout taking all things and 1963, in anticipation of such a situa­ around a few months ago there, or a tion, the Board desire for the Petition couple of years ago, I am not too sure to.ibe referred to a Committee of Tyn­ now, it was quite a while back, we wald for consideration and report and paid a large sum for the ground for I so move. the fire station at Douglas. The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to second. I welcome this move on the The Deputy Governor: 1 am not sure part of the Local Government Board. that I should let the hon. member go In Laxey we are always very hard put on because he is going into the m erits to find any sites (for development, of the matter whereas that is a matter whether it toe housing or otherwise. which is going to toe considered toy the Frankly, I question the wisdom of a Committee of Tynwald, if a Commit­ fire station on this particular site and tee is appointed and with .great respect I cannot help wondering here whether I think the hon. member should not or not Boards of Tynwald might get proceed, at this stage, on this aspect together and. the Manx Electric Rail­ •of the matter. way might co-ordinate with the Local Government Board and provide a site Mr. Creer: I have just aired my in a very good position near Laxey views, any way. Station. These are the sort of possi­ bilities I think a Select Committee The Deputy Governor: That will not, could well examine and bear in mind c(: course, prevent you from- saying when looking at the Petition which is these remarks and elaborating at a put forward today because I, for one, later stage but not today. The motion would prefer to see housing on some is that the Petition be referred to a of these sites rather than a fire station. Select Committee of Tynwald for con­ The Deputy Governor: Does Coun­ sideration and report. Those in favour sel for the Laxey Village Commis­ please say aye. Against, no. The sioners wish to enter a formal appear­ motion is therefore carried. Now, hon. ance today ? members, please, a Select Committee presum atoly of five ? Mr. J. Corlett appeared for the Petitioners. The following members were pre­ posed and seconded: ¡Mr. Speaker, Mr. Mr. Corlett: I appear on behalf of Faragher, Mr. Creer, Mr. Bell and Mr. the Laxey Village Commissioners. Irving.

The Deputy Governor: Do you wish Mr. Bell: I move nominations to address the Court at this stage ? closed.

Petition of Laxey Village Commissioners—Sale of Land to L.G.B. for Fire Station—Referred to a Select Committee T230 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

Mr. . Radcliffe: Your Excellency, The Clerk: The report has been cir­ could I seek your guidance on this culated. ¡point, 1 understand that if this Com­ mittee is elected, as you have sug­ The Deputy Governor: Thank you, gested, sir, various points with refer­ then I call upon the hon. member for ence to the one made toy the hon. memr Rushen, Mr. Faragher, to move, toer for Middle will be considered. please ? However, would I be correct in saying that at this moment the situation is Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, in that a piece of ground is offered to the respect of the Petition o£ the Port Local Government Board for purchase. Erin Village Commissioners for ap­ If they were going to come back with proval of an Order made by the Peti­ the findings that a proper place for a tioners under Section 7 of the Public fire station was some other area, is Rights of -W-ay Act 1961 on the 22nd this going to affect the Petition ? October, 1974, extinguishing a public right of way as set out in the Petition. The Deputy Governor: I should I beg to move:— think that the Select Committee’s terms are -confined precisely to the That the Prayer of the Petition be subject of the prayer and nothing and the same is hereby granted. more. I would like to make the Court fully Mr. Radcliffe: Thank you, sir. aware of the position in Port Erin Dis­ trict regarding this footpath. This pub­ The Deputy Governor: Now the lic footpath has -been in existence ior nominations for the Select Committee, very many years, it is only a mud or it is agreed that the Committee should earth footpath, if you like to -put it toe five. Five nominations have been that way and it has been used for, so made and there has been a motion far as I knoiw, the last century and that nominations close, is that agreed? possibly before that.

It was agreed. Mr. Bell: Personal knowledge ?

The Deputy Governor: In that case Mr. Faragher: Not to my own per­ I declare the five members to be duly sonal knowledge, Mr. Bell, no, but I appointed-. They are, in alphabetical have played on it just the same 60 order: 'Mr. Bell, Mr. Creer, Mr. Farag­ years ago if that is of any interest to her, Mr. Irving and Mr. Speaker. you. In closing this footpath, Your Ex­ cellency, it leaves four other alterna­ tive paths or roadways available to the general public to get ifrom Bay View Road down to Station Road. PETITION OF PORT ERIN Each member has been circulated with COMMISSIONERS—EXTINGUISHING a portion of the main plan which is A PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY on the taible and if you could look at BETWEEN BAY VIEW ROAD AND that for one moment you will see that STATION ROAD—APPROVED the red marked line indicates the exist­ ing pathway which they seek to close The Deputy Governor: Item 27, the and the yellow line on the left of it. Petition of the Port Erin Commis- I -would like you to take note here. "Sibners. The Clerk of Tynwald to re­ This distance' between the red port. line, which is the existing footpath,

Petition' of Port Erin Commissioners—Extinguishing a Public Right of Way between Bay View Road and Station Road—Approved TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T231 along Bay View to where the other Mr. E. D. Kneale: I appear, Your Ex­ roadway starts is approximately a cellency, on behalf of the Commission­ maximum of 50 yards and you will find ers of Port Erin and the facts have been there that that is a concrete footpath put forward clearly to the Court by the all the way down ip Station Road ¡hon member Mr. Faragher who is very where the other one was practically familiar with this area. The Commis­ three quarters.of the way a mud path, sioners have taken the ¡appropriate steps and ¡beside that there are three other they being under the Rights of Way Act road§ leading into the centre of this the Road Authority and it has been ad­ n,ew building area, which in turn also vertised,, it was advertised prior to the lead down to Station Road.- It has Commissioners considering the applica­ been advertised in the “ Isle- oft Man tion, ,in fact the Commissioners had two Examiner’’ and the “Isle of Man meetings becauseT advised them to wait Courier” on 23rd and 30th August until the other advertisements had ex­ last on ibehalf of the developers and pired. Bearing those factors in mind the “ Isle of Man Examiner ” arid the the Fuchsia Homes Lim ited and .the “Manx Star” on the 1st and 4th Commissioners themselves would like, November on behalf of the Port Erin if possible, for this hon. Court-to grant Commissioners. No objections to this the Prayer of the Petition, without it proposal were received toy either the having to go before a Select Commit­ developer or the Commissioners. See­ tee because -no'.hing useful could be ing that they intend (blocking off a added to what has already been men­ right of way ¡which is a- mud path and tioned toy the two hon. m em bers of this giving them three or four other ways Court, Your Excellency. of getting down to the roadway which the mud path - was leading them to I The Deputy Governor: Mr. Corlett, think that this is a very good case do you appear on toehallf of Fuchsia for this hon. Court to agree. I cannot Homes ? see, any sense personally in wasting the time oi? a Committee to go into this ¡Mr. J. Corlett appeared for the because it is a clear cut case in my Petitioners. humble opinion and I think if a Com­ mittee was set up on it they could see Mr. Corlett: I do, yes sir. exactly the same as I am saying at the moment. Your Excellency, I The Deputy Governor: And do you move that the Prayer of the Petition support the Petition ? V - be and the same is hereby granted. Mr. Corlett: I, do, Your Excellency. Mr. Crellin: I beg to second and re­ serve -my remarks. The Deputy Governor: Yes, thank you. The Deputy Governor: I think per­ haps I ought to say in confirmation of Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, speaking what the hon. member Mr. Faragher is to the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. saying that the necessary affidavits in Faragher, it seems to me that ilf the proof of the Public Notice have been ¡Court agrees with the Petition that filed with the Clerk of Tynwald by both the market value of building sites, the developers and by--the Commission­ which previously had an impediment of ers. a pulblic right of way going through it, will toe remarkably enhanced. I would Mr. E. D. Kneale appeared on behalf like to know whether this enhanced of the Petitioners. value has toeen taken account of

Petition of Port Erin Commissioners—Extinguishing a Public - Right of Way between Bay View Road and Station Road—Approved Î232 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

by the Petitioners and whether this Mr. Crellin: That is the border be­ will accrue to the benefit oi the rate­ tween that plot and the building plots payers of Port Erin or to the benefit of immediately on the lelft. Those are the developer ? building plots there.

Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, The Deputy Governor: I think possi­ speaking to that point, having been bly it might help the hon. member for involved indirectly with this through Castletown if I said that nothing the Local Government Board on plan­ approved within today’s application ning, (D would like to compliment Port can affect the normal requirements of Erin Commissioners and Fuchsia planning approvals both of the Local Homes Limited on the development Authority and the Planning Commit­ in that area, because if we were to tee. I think that is the real answer. consider (he amount of rateable value that has been increased in that area Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I think through these various developments the hon. member has overlooked the without any question the Port Erin question I asked about the enhanced Commissioners and the Village Dis­ value of the land without the impedi­ trict of Port Erin are going to con­ ment of the footpath. siderably ¡benefit, and I hope this Hon. Court today will wholeheartedly sup­ Mr. Faragher: Are you looking at port this and congratulate all con­ the plan or are you just being awk­ cerned in their project. ward ? (Laughter). You could not expect the path to go through where Mrs Quayle: Your Excellency, could the house is built, now could you ? I I ask — I see the (footpath backs on think this is going to foe beneficial to and runs alongside a lot of plots of all concerned ------(.Interruptions). land. Are these going to be gardens of the proposed bungalows or are they, in The Deputy Governor: The motion is fact, going to have 'bungalows along­ that the Prayer of the Petition be and side, in other words running over the the same is hereby granted. Those in footpath ? favour please say aye. Against, no. The Deputy Governor: Does the hon. The ayes have it. The motion is member, Mr. Faragher, wish to reply? carried. Mr. Faragher: I do not think I have very much to reply to, apart from Mrs. Quayle. I should imagine, so far as I know, Your Excellency, these particu­ BOARD OF EDUCATION lar plots of land you see behind the — TEACHERS’ SALARIES — building plots, at least the houses FURTHER AMOUNT FOR which are sited here at the moment, THRESHOLD AWARDS the others have not yet been sold, and — APPROVED this particular line you see here, that happens to foe the Isle of Man Elec­ The Deputy Governor: We now turn tricity Board cable, which is under­ to page 3, item No. 7 — Teachers' ground there, and it does not mean Salaries — and- I call on the C hairm an that this particular plot of land is divi­ of the Gsle of M an Board ot: Education ded up for another building. to move.

Mrs. Quayle: I was looking at this Miss Thcrnton-Duesbery: Y our Ex­ line down here. cellency, I beg to move—

Board of Education—Teachers’ Salaries—Further Amount for Threshold Awards—Approved TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T233

That the Treasurer of the Isle of Man mises at Dalmeny being sold, the grant be authorised to apply from the current of £10,000 shall thereupon be repaid to revenue of this Isle during the year end­ Government. ing 31st March 1975 a sum not exceed­ ing £4,340 being the amount required (Reference: Item 35, Page 11, of the by the Board of Education to enable the Treasurer’s Estimates 1974/75). Board to meet the cost of the threshold agreement award operative from 1st This resolution seeks the approval oif November to teachers in the employ­ Tynwald to the payment of the grant of ment of the Board and also to adjust the £10,000 provided in the Board of Edu­ amount of teachers’ salaries grant pay­ cation’s Capital Estimates for assistance able to the Buchan School in respect of to the National Children’s Home at this award after allowing for increased Ramsey for impiovements which they receipts from teachers superannuation have felt necessary to be carried out at contributions consequent upon this in­ their Home there. Perhaps I could just crease in salary rates, such sum to be very briefly say a few words regarding additional to the sum of £20,147,730 the work of the National ChLdren’s voted by Tynw ald on 21st May 1974. Home and what it means to us in the Island. The Branch of the National Mr. Quayle: I 'beg to second, Your Children’s Home at Ramsey provides ac­ Excellency. commodation for children placed there by various Local Authorities and since The Deputy Governor: Is th at the Children’s Committee came into be­ agreed ? ing in th e Island in 1953 full use has been made of the facilities in the Ram­ It was agreed. sey Branch, there being at the moment seventeen children there. The great majority of the children belong to the Island. The charge made for children BOARD OF EDUCATION placed in the Home by the Board o 1 — GRANT TO NATIONAL Education is a special charge and it is CHILDREN’S HOME, RAMSEY, considerably lower than the charge TOWARDS BUILDING generally made to United Kingdom IMPROVEMENTS Authorities. It was in June 1973 that — APPROVED the Board was notified that the Home Authorities had been concerned for The Deputy Governor: Item No. 8, some time with the standard of accom­ National Children’s Home. The Chair­ modation being provided at the Ramsey man of the Board of Education to Branch and it had been decided to ex­ move. tend the existing building to provide a new wing with self-contained accom­ Miss Thorntcn-Duesbery: Y our Ex­ modation for one group of 12 children cellency, I beg to move— and staff leaving the existing building on which improvements were being car­ That Tynwald approves of a sum of ried out, available for another group of £10,000 being advanced by way of grant 12 children and staff, a small house for to the National Children’s Home as a the resident superintendent was also be­ contribution towards the cost of a pro­ ing provided. In view of the long as­ gramme of extensions and improve­ sociation with the Isle of Man and the ments being undertaken to Dalmeny, fact that places were kept available for the Branch of the Home in Ramsey insular children the Home decided to provided that in the event of the pre­ seek a contribution towards the cost of

Board of Education—Grant to National Children s Home, Ramsey, Towards Building Improvements—Approved T234 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 this Scheme. The original estimated dren’s Home and I warmly support this cost of the work was £44,000 buit the recommendation not only because otf the accepted tender totalled £65,400 which tact that I am connected with .that par­ the Home Authorities were advised was ticular organisation but because of the not 'an unreasonable figure in the light fact that this organisation has had an of the substantial increase in materials established Home in the Island since as and labour costs. The Home Authorities far back as 1880. I think throughout decided to proceed with the work and the whole of those years it has played to make an application ,to the Board in an extremely useful part in the particu­ the hope that it would ibe possible for lar sphere of social welfare to which it a contribution to be made to meet this is directed. At one time, and I can re­ total cost, although it was understood: member the days when I went to school, that no grant would be made belore the the bulk of the children who were in financial year 1974/75 because of Bud­ the Homes, and at that time they had get requirem ents. In October 1973, the both a Branch at Ballacloan and Dal- Children’s Committee recommended meny, came from the United Kingdom. that provision be made in the Board’s However, as the hon. Chairman of the Estimates for the current year for a Board of Education has. pointed out sum of £10,000 to be paid to the Home since 1953 the children resident in the and in due course the sum otf £10,000 Home and it can accommodate with this was included in the final Capital Esti­ new improvement up to 24, have been mates approved at the Budget Tynwald. almost completely children belonging to The Children’s Cdrrumittee, in making the Isle of Man itself. This particular their recommendations commented as organisation, the National Children’s follows—“The Committee recognise that Home, is a voluntary organisation, it is without the facilities of the National supported wholly by people who desire Children’s Home they could be placed in one form or another to contribute in a very real dilemma in carrying out funds to an organisation devoted to the their statutory obligations under the welfare of children in need. It has a Children’s Act and indeed are of the wonderful record behind it in the Isle opinion that a far greater cost might of Man, particularly as far as co-opera­ well fall.on public funds if alternative tion with the Board of Education is con­ accommodation had to be provided. The cerned and I feel that this is an oppor­ Committee have made enquiries to see tunity that Tynwa’d should welcome to if there are any Schemes within the give a modest contribution towards a Island from which assistance could be really large development at this par­ given to the National Children’s Home ticular Residential Home which will en­ but without success”. The Board have able much better accommodation to be been advised that good progress has available for both the children and the been made on the building -and it is now staff and I sincerely hope, and I am almost ready for occupation and in confident in this respect, that Tynwald these circumstances the Board decided will give this proposal its unanimous that the approval of Tynwald should support. now be sought to the payment of the grant of £10,000 provided in the Capital Mr. Anderson: I loo rise to support Estim ates. it, Your Excellency. This is a wonder­ ful thing for the Isle of Man. Just very Mr., Kerruish: Your Excellency, I beg briefly to compare it with Jersey where to second and in seconding I first of all they have no voluntary Children’s would like to declare an interest in this Home and they spend over £100,000 a matter in that I am a member of the year on child care. We in the Island Ramsey Committee of the National Chil­ are fortunate, we have two Homes run

Board of Education—Grant to National Children’s Home, Ramsey, Towards Building Improvements—Approved TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T235 voluntarily and I think that it is a Committee have in the past, I am quite privilege for us to foe able to help in sure, found difficulty in placing chil­ this way and are grateful in the Island dren with certain of the Children’s for the fact that this Home is spend­ Homes. I am not saying it was the ing so much money on behalf of these Ramsey one. children. They do an exceptional job and I think the appreciation of Tyn­ Members: Douglas. wald should go'out that we appreciate The Speaker: Douglas, fair enough, what is being done and the way the then that is the answer I am seeking children there are taken care of, it is and as long as I am assured that there really marvellous. is the fullest co-operation in that re­ Members: Hear, hear. spect, I am quite hapipy, but I know that there have been areas of difficulty The Speaker: Your Excellency, it is in certain of the administrations. a funny resolution and I am surprised to find it on the Agenda. The National Miss Cowin, Your Excellency, in sup­ Children’s Home is an organisation for port of the last speaker I would say which I have the greatest admiration that he is not far from the truth in and it is one which has helped the what he says. The acceptance of cer­ Isle of Man Government terrifically in tain children has been a matter of many ways, giving (back the land to some embarrassment to the Home- in the Government at Glencrutchery in question I do know. providing a Home at Ramsey and The Deputy Governor: At Ramsey ? Douglas— Members: Different organisations. Miss Cowin: At Ramsey.

The Speaker: Two different organisa­ Mr. Bolton: 'I would like, Your Excel­ tions with the same objective, one at lency, just to say this — the hon. Mr. Ramsey and one at Douglas. Speaker, I think, was a little confused Mr. Bell: One National and one about the nature of the two Homes, Manx. ■and he did say ‘‘both richly endowed.” I would like to point out that the The Speaker: One National and one National Children’s Home, operating Manx, both ricfily endowed. My ques­ in Ramsey, is not one which is richly tion really, and toy the way I would endowed:; it is one which is main- . like to make a point here, I have the tained largely from efforts and collec­ fullest admiration for the Ramsey tions all over the country and it does Home and I am delighted at the co­ need all the support that it can get. It operation that has 'been given to the certainly is not considered as being work of that Home by the Forestry, richly endowed and ¡r feel really that Mines and Lands Board in affording any assistance that can foe given, as is them a cottage and a play area at Bal- ¡being given under this resolution, is laglass - w hich tihey -can enjoy fully. richly deserved in the light of the work Now having said that, there was one th at they do. point I wanted to be clear on with re­ gard to the statement made by the Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I sup­ mover and that is the acceptance of port the views that have been ex­ children who are placed in care in pressed by Mr. Bolton and from my own Children’s Homes in the Isle of Man knowledge of the Children’s Homes in by the Children's Committee. This has the Isle of Man we have always found not always been so, the Children’s the Ramsey Home most co-operative.

Board of Education—Grant to National Children’s Home, Ramsey, Towards Building Improvements—Approved T236 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974

There were areas, during my period as GRANT TO BUCHAN EDUCATIONAL Chairman, with the Douglas Home TRUST — WITHDRAWN where they refused to take small chil­ dren and babies in arms but that was The Deputy Governor: Item No. 9, the really through the particular Master Chairman of the Isle of Man Board of who happened to be in charge at the Education. time. I feel that this resolution is worthy of support and I think the Court Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Excel­ should give it. lency, I beg to move:—

Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, follow­ That Tynwald— ing up Mr. Speaker’s remarks about be­ ing richly endowed I think these re­ (a) approves of a sum not exceeding marks cou'd be construed in one way, £250,000 being advanced by way they are most certainly richly endowed of grant to the Buchan Educa­ with the quality and competence of the tional Trust Limited as a con­ staff from Sister Beryl downwards, Sis­ tribution towards the cost of a ter Beryl Bonwick downwards, and I programme of rebuilding and personally am glad of the opportunity modernisation being undertaken to pay tribute publicly to the excellent at the Buchan School, Westhill, work, truly wonderful work that is done Castletown. Provided that, in the at the Dalmeny Home. event of the premises at Westhill ceasing to be used as a school The Deputy Governor: Do you wish within a period of twenty years to reply? following the date of the final in­ stalment of the grant, the Govern­ ment shall have the first right to Miss Thornton-Duesbery: May I just reply, Your Excellency, in this way purchase the property at a price thanking all hon. members of the Legis­ to be determined by valuation lative Council and hon. members of the less the amount of the grant paid. Keys who have supported this and spoken so warmly of the National Chil­ (b) authorises the Treasurer to apply dren’s Home. I would like to say that from the current revenue of this I think that the hon. member, Miss Isle during the year ending 31st Cowin, is in error, Dalmeny has never, March 1975 a sum not exceeding to our knowledge, refused any request £55,000 being that part of the we have made to take in any child and cost of giving effect to paragraph the co-operation, as the hon. member of (a) above required in the current Council, Mr. Kneale, has said, is excel­ financial year; such sum to be in lent in every way and we are most addition to the sum of £20,147,730 grateful. voted by Tynwald on the 21st M ay 1974.

Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, I stand I know that I am facing a very diffi­ corrected. I am deeply sorry. cult task now (interruptions). In this resolution we are faced with another The Deputy Governor: Item 8, those enormous demand of money and per­ in favour please say aye; against, no. It haps I should first of all sketch in for is carried unanimously. hon members the background to the resolution as seen by the Board of Edu­ cation. The proposals for the rebuild­

Grant to Buchan Educational Trust—Withdrawn TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T237

ing and modernisation of the Buchan sum being raised by gifts, sale of the School were submitted by the Directors Bowling Green Road property and a of the Buchan Trust and the Governors small area of land at Westhill and by of the School to the Executive Council bond. Hon. members will note the con­ and a copy of this memorandum was dition attached to the grant, as set out sent to the Board of Education on 12th in the latter part (a) of the resolution— April, 1973, by the G overnm ent Secre­ “Provided that, in the event of the tary. The Board’s comments were re­ premises at Westhill ceasing to be used quested and in a few moments I will as a school within a period of twenty give their comments. The Finance and years following the date of the final in­ Executive Committee of the Board of stalment of the grant, the Government Education decided that the four Board sha 1 have the first right to purchase the members who had been appointed as property at a price to be determined by Governors of the Buchan School in May valuation less the amount of the grant 1972, should form a sub-Committee to paid”. Part (b) of the resolution “autho­ examine the memorandum and report rises the Treasurer to apply from the upon it. This they did in due course current revenue of this Isle during the and their report was approved by the year ending 31st March 1975 a sum.not Board. In the meantime, approval—we exceeding £55,000 being that part of the will return to the memorandum and the cost of giving effect to paragraph (a) Sub-Committee’s report on it in a above required in the current financial moment—in the meantime, approval year;”. The Directors submitted the was given to a Scheme for the rebuild­ following points as justification for the ing of a new dining room with a dormi­ Scheme — the school is of considerable tory block above it and a gymnasium benefit to the Island and it attracts chil­ and this Scheme involved no contribu­ dren from the United Kingdom and tion from public funds. Work is at overseas, thus producing a certain con­ present proceeding on this. Now the tribution to the economy, I should say main proposals in the memorandum a considerable contribution to the from the Directors are as follows:—the economy. The expansion of the school concentration of the whole School at will mean an expansion of this contri­ Westhill; the disposal of the Bowling bution. Secondly, the premises will be Green Road property; the erection of a avai’able during holiday times for sum­ new kitchen and dining facilities with mer courses, which again is of benefit dormitory accommodation above — this to the economy. Thirdly, the school will work is that which is now proceeding; be able to make a greater contribution the erection of a gymnasium and as­ to the educational system by being able sembly hall at Westhill, that work is to cater for more local children — of proceeding; the erection of a new class­ course it would have to be shown that room block with dormitory accommoda­ there was an unsatisfied demand for tion; the erection of a sanitorium; the places at the Buchan School from insu­ provision of improved games facilities lar parents. Now we come to the Board’s and the modernisation of the existing comments as contained in the Sub-Com­ facilities of Westhill. Originally the mittee’s report. They reported that total cost of all the work was estimated there was >a need to modernise the ac­ at not more than £325.000 but lit is prob- commodation at the Buchan School and ab’e that the current figure could be in that this should be done in conjunction the vicinity of £400,000 or more. The with the transfer of all the activities proposed Government grant, as recom­ of the school to the Westhill site. This mended for approval by this hon. Court, was self-evident and the Board has al­ is in this resolution before us and is ready had some experience of the diffi­ £250,000, the remainder of the required culties of operating schools in separate

Grant to Buchan Educational Trust—¡Withdrawn T238 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 buildings. " In other words we have money to meet the cost. Government great sympathy with the Buchan School capital expenditure is met partly by in the circumstances in which they find borrowing and partly from other sources themselves. Secondly that support such as the general revenue, but the should be given to the proposal to ex­ capital cost is always charged to the pand the school in the manner suggested Board concerned. The purpose of this and to that end financial support should recommendation was firstly that the be available from Insular Government Board’s allocation in the capital Budget on the understanding that any such ex­ should not be reduced, but the second penditure should not thereby reduce the consideration, not known at the time, amount availab’e in respect of the was that the Board should not be Board’s capital programme for the main­ charged with any loan charges in re­ tained schools. I think there are two spect of this particular grant”. Then very important points there. First of the third and final expression of view all, the Board did not know at that time of the sub-committee which was ap­ the total sum that was going to be ad­ proved by the Board — “The sub-com­ vanced as being the grant, and also the mittee express the view that subject to point that we have made all along, that the foregoing proposals being approved with our school population now of near­ and carried out, there should be at an ly 9,000 children, probably rising within appropriate time consultation with the the next year to 10,000 we cannot, how­ governors of the Buchan School in re­ ever much our sympathy, and it is very spect of the relationship with the re­ strong with the Buchan School indeed, organised Buchan School to the general but we cannot have our own Capital educational organisation in the Island.” Estimates stopped, in order to help their Although this was not a recommenda­ need. It is a sad thing to have to say it, tion, great importance was attached to but there it is, our needs are tre­ it by the sub-committee. The governors mendously great. Perhaps at this point of the School in their memorandum re­ I should say one point on my moving ferred to the contribution which an en­ this resolution — I do so because I am larged Buchan School could make to Chairman of the Board of Education, the general education system. Quite because the Buchan School is a direct apart from the Board’s responsibility to grant, school, we have a responsibility ensure that the Buchan School is con­ for it, we have great interest in it and ducted in a proper manner according to we have great desire to help it. Also, I its status as the equivalent of a direct was asked to do so by Executive Coun­ grant grammar school, there has to be cil and the Finance Board, and I felt close consultation with the Board if fur­ that it was my duty to do so on those ther financial commitments are to be grounds. There is one other point re­ undertaken toy Government in respect garding this which I think is important, of any developments in the school which financially, to realise regarding the last might be duplicated elsewhere. For part of this which is: “The expenditure example, the Board has in recent years should not thereby reduce the amount suggested the possibility of closer work­ available in respect of the Board’s capi­ ing with King William’s College, and in tal programme for the maintained connection with the present scheme the schools”. That is of vital importance. possibility of common facilities being “When the Board secures approval to used by both the Buchan School and a school building scheme the animal loan Castle Rushen High School pupils”. charges to meet the cost of that scheme are oharged in the Board’s revenue esti­ mates. This occurs whether or not in A member: Who were the sub-com­ fact the Government has borrowed mittee, please?

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Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Who w ere educational facilities and to the Island’s the sub-committee? The sub-committee life and economy in general, I beg to were the four governors of the school move the resolution standing in my appointed by the Board: Mrs Corrin, name. Mrs Cottier, Mr Leah and Mrs Watson. Mr. Simcocks: I second and reserve my remarks, Your Excellency. Mi'. Irving: Could we have some figures of pupils, please? Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, on Item No. 9 on the Agenda we did have Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Yes, cer­ the words underneath “reference Item tainly, afterwards. Do you mind, Your 35, page 11, T reasu rer’s Estim ates 1974- Excellency, if I conclude this part first? 1975”. On Item 8, I am sorry. For Item “With these recommendations and ex­ 9, I find no reference and on looking up pressions of views the Board of Educa­ the Pink Book I find that there would tion concurred, and it is clear that it is be no reference to this coming forward certainly necessary to modernise the in any Capital Estimates. So it is rather school buildings and facilities and to remarkable. The history of it seems concentrate the entire school at West- rather peculiar to me. The hon. mem­ hill if its future is to be assured. With­ ber, the mover of the resolution, sug­ out such modernisation and concentra­ gested that the governors had com­ tion it is not felt that the school is municated with the Executive Council. viable beyond the next 10 years.” Ac­ This is rather a strange line; I would cording to the Jan u ary 1974 attendance have thought that anything associated return there were 112 full-time and 19 with education would have gone to the part-time pupils in the lower school. Board of Education and then the Board That is lower school, 112 full-time and of Education in turn would submit it 19 part-time. In the upper school there to the Executive Council and Finance were 225 full-time pupils. These figures Board, etc., etc. It was rather peculiar include 105 boarders of whom about 70 that it came that way and then sub­ live outside the Isle of Man, I think it sequently the Chairman said that the is 71 to be absolutely exact. Of the total Government Secretary then sent along number there are 17 free place pupils the memorandum to the Board. So they whose fees are paid through public tried — whether in ignorance or other­ funds and 49 whose fees are paid by the wise — I would have thought that this governors of the school. Do hon. mem-, is the wrong approach. I do think, and bers wish to know the fees? I was rather impressed by the Chair­ man of the Board saying that if this Members: Yes. was granted it should not be the means of delaying any of the Board’s cwn Miss Thornton - Duesbery: Senior capital estimates. boarders, £663 per annum; junior Mr. Bell: Or diminishing. boarders, £633; senior day girls £273; upper preparatory, £243; lower pre­ Mr. Nivison: Or diminishing. Because paratory, £204 and kindergarten, £117. I personally am of the opinion that a I think at that point I had better move secondary school in the West of the the resolution and then leave it open Island should have priority over a thing for questions. I will do it in this way, of this nature. (Hear, hear.) I have that I will simply say so that the been consistent in this. I believe that Buchan School may have the oppor­ the small units associated with educa­ tunity to continue to give worthwhile tion are infinitely superior to the mon­ and desirable service to the Island’s sters that may go if everything is

Grant to Buchan Educational Trust—-¿Withdrawn T240 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 centred in the Eastern side, or in other they will get some assistance toward parts. I think, really, the personal ap­ what they are attempting to do at the proach with teacher and pupil is very present moment, (but, sir, while tre­ much ibetter looked after in the mendous improvements have been smaller units. Q do understand, as made in regard to certain of our far as the Buchan School is con­ schools, our state schools in the Isle of cerned, that they have -been hop­ Man, additions to them that have made ing for a new build-ng Cor this a tremendous difference to our pupils, last twenty or thirty years, probably. I much still remains to be done. I could would say that they do useful work; I not help just looking last night at the think it is true to say they do useful Estimates for last year, and then see­ work, and they provide an opportunity ing just what exactly happened to them for many pupils who would otherwise, so far as the Board of Education was in some cases, not gain admittance to concerned. They had to cut their cloth the grammar school in the United very, very considerably when it came Kingdom, but could be brought in in to Budget time. They have, in common the Isle of Man. In the Isle of Man, of with other Boards, a great deal of back­ course, with the full comprehensive log still to make up. I listened care­ system, that does not pertain. It could fully to what Mr. Nivison had to say happen that pupils who come from and he did refer to the possibility of a without buy their way into the school. school in the West in the very near There might be a place for this, I am future. This morning, within this same not suggesting there should not be a building, we listened to a reply given place. Many of us, I am sure, were to a question from Mr. Kermeen so far somewhat alarmed, I would say, to find as Jurby is concerned. I know that a vote of £250,000, as a grant, coming Jurby is a school of only yesterday, forward on the Agenda without it first but this was created by the fact that of all having to go through the mill as you have now a community living in every other department has to go the Jurby area that has justified a through the mill; in fact we have to school to come into existence. They put our capital estimates forward have been making use of one of the many years until eventually we get buildings put up during the War for over the final hurdle, and eventually it other purposes, they are adjacent to a is allowed to be placed in the book, and firm which was already existent, and subsequently to be placed before Tyn­ therefore have had to accept low stan­ wald. I would say that I am sorry to dards in terms of education because of my friend the hon. member for Garff, the circumstances that existed. But from the Chairman of the Board of Educa­ the day of this school’s birth there was tion, that I would personally believe always the possibility again of a new that this is not the time for us to ask school,' and they do need it. Therefore for £250,000. We believe, many of us I referring to two items; in the West of am sure, that so far as education is the Island, in the North of the Island, concerned there are some more urgent extensions are still needed in many of matters to be attended to, and we hope our other schools. I feel that the we will support them, and then come priorities are wrong if we were to sup­ again at a later date. port this motion that is before us today and neglect what is our duty towards Mr. Hislop: Your Excellency, may I the children in the ordinary state say at once that I have no inimical feel­ schools of the Isle of Man. I have been ings towards the Buchan School, and I grateful to get certain figures absolutely hope that in due course the time will up to date and they have produced permit and circumstances permit that rather interesting reading. So far as the

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Board of Education is concerned, in our schools in the Island are feeling the prim ary sector there are 5,400 pupils. effects of inflation on the cost of buying The cost of their education is £142 a educational materials and equipment, head, per year. On the secondary side and some of them are over-crowded as there are 3,390 pupils w ith an annual well. And yet it appears that their cost of £229 per head. Then we come needs are being ignored in favour of to the Buchan School which, after all, financing a private school which caters is at this stage a private school receiv­ for the very small minority. If parents ing certain kinds of aid through the wish to send their children to a private Board of Education. For instance, the school that is entirely their prerogative, salaries of teachers in the Buchan but certainly it should not be at the School, 50 per cent, of them are paid by expense of other state schools.” I shall the Board of Education. This is a mat­ oppose the motion before us. ter of some £30,000 a year. In addition to that, if I may come to the numbers Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I am please and I will come back to that amazed to see this resolution in the again in a moment, the total number name of the Chairman of the Board of of children at the present moment in Education today. The hon. member says the Buchan School is 337, three per that she was asked to take it by the cent, of the total number who attend Executive Council and the Finance school in the Isle of Man. There is a Board. I would say, more fool her for grant made then for salaries which is accepting this brief from them. She was passed on as an assistance, as a help led up the garden on the Licensing Bill, towards the younger pupils in the she has been led up the garden again Buchan School, of £89 per year. That now. We know how difficult it is to find is the assistance being given at this sufficient money to provide facilities to stage. When you leave the lower school meet the requirements of the state and move up into the upper — that s m o o Is to carry out th-sir duties to the would be the equivalent of our secon­ children of compulsory school age. I dary side of education — there is a must admit that the Board of Educa­ further £30 per head added to this £89, tion have seriously undermined their making a yearly figure of £119 per own case in this direction by suggest­ pupil. Those who remain until the sixth ing that we allow children of 3 to 3£ form in the Buchan School then re­ years of age into our state schools, but ceive in addition to these that haye now they have added to this folly by gone before, an extra £40 per year, coming forward with this resolution, to making £159 per head, per year, of make, a grant of £J million to the assistance towards their education. As Buchan Educational Trust Ltd. as a I say, I have no complaint whatever contribution towards the cost of a about assisting schools of the descrip­ programme of rebuilding and moderni­ tion of the Buchan, but our own must sation at the Buchan School. We have come first. As and when circumstances been told today that the total cost of permit I would be very happy indeed this is somewhere over £300,000, but to put uip my hand in approval for any could reach a total of £400,000; this is kind of assistance that could be given, giving the majority of it in an outright but that is not now. May I, before I grant. The mover of the resolution says sit down, just read a small portion from the Board of Education have made a a letter that I received yesterday. It is condition that their own capital esti­ a schoolmaster, he has children of his mates would not be reduced. I wonder own and he is very interested in other how naive people can get! If we vote people’s children as well. In his letter for this resolution today, the Buchan he writes: “The Board of Education School have got their £J- million, but

Grant to Buchan Educational Trust—Withdrawn T242 -TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 the Board of Education and every other remembers having agreed to support a Board and department of this Court scheme of £-J m illion grant going to have still got to wait until next May the Buchan School, or anything like it. or June before they will know whether If this scheme is to be considered at their pet schemes are going to he in­ all, I think it should be considered at cluded in the Budget. This is a de­ the same time as everybody’s estimates liberate attempt to jump the gun, bring­ are being considered. Even then I ing it forward at this time. If their would find it very difficult to support a own capital schemes are thrown out or resolution as worded, and I certainly considerably reduced, then the Board of will oppose. Education have only themselves to blame. If the resolution before us today Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I do had been asking for a loan I might not think any motion in Tynwald has have had some little sympathy for it. caused me more concern than the But I remember that some years ago, present one, and as the Buchan School many years ago, this school got a loan is in my constituency if I am going to of £2,000 which was to be paid in a oppose the motion obviously I must go reasonslbly short time. I know for long, into detail. I knew that we were going long years despite repeated requests to be asked for some money and I had for them to pay this off they never did, expected a sum of perhaps £25,000 or and in the end this Court wiped this perhaps £50,000, but I must admit that loan out. But to come forward and sug­ I was dumbfounded when I saw a £J- gest an outright grant of £ i million in million. I was also very surprised to see these days when every one of us is that the Buchan is not going to pay looking for money for our own state any charge on it; the charges are going schools and for our other departments, to fall on the Government. I feel it is I think is absolutely ridiculous. It has very unfortunate timing — that is not been suggested that this school at pre­ their fault — but obviously with the sent helps relieve the pressure on our world situation and our own Island existing schools. This is most mislead­ situation, and also I might mention the ing. If all the local children who go to Castletown situation because I have this school were spread around the never known a subject raise so much, schools in this Island, because of their or shall I say upset people so much as varied age groups and locations they this one has. For years they have been would hardly be noticed. On the other trying to get a swimming pool and there hand, £-} million would go a long way has not been the money, and it appears to providing two moderate sized pri­ to them that a fee paying school has mary schools, and they could cater for only to raise their finger and £-} million anything up to 400 children. Govern­ will be available to them. They feel ment is already providing substantial that this swimming pool is part of the financial help for this school, as has equipment of the school and that been pointed out by other members, generations of these children have been and I say although the resolution is in deprived of their rights. I had hoped the name of the Chairman of the Board when the scheme came forward that it of Education and we have heard that a would be an imaginative scheme with sub-committee of the Board of Educa­ perhaps King William’s College joined tion met and reported, and that the up co-educa+ional, . as I think the members of the Board of Education are Chairman said, and possibly Westhill supposed to have considered it and kept for the junior boarders and per­ given their support to it. I talked to haps the junior school. I wanted to look many members of the Board of Educa­ at some facts and I am going into some tion and I cannot find a single one that detail because I feel that this should

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be said because there are things on teachers’ salaries. One assumes that this both sides. About the boarders — they will probably be given to the teachers pay annually for their board, not their — this is apart from the cost of living tuition, but for their board £390. In­ index where we had a small increase cidentally, for the 36 weeks that £390 today — and if this 30 per cent, does represents just under £11, and looking come it is going to be reflected in the at Whittaker’s Almanac and comparing increased grant that Tynwald has to schools of a similar type I do believe pay to the Buchan. The-present grant that that possibly is on the meagre side. of £39,000 represents about £134 per The Board of Education has given us pupil per year. The girls pay different figures and I will keep to them, but tuition fees according to their grade, curiously enough we seem to have lost as we have heard, so my figures are only one boarder compared to what the approximate. I based my reckoning of secretary of the school told me, so I will what I ;im going to say on 290 girls keep to the Board of Education’s because I omitted from these figures figures, 92 upper school boarders and the scholarship girls who are paid for, 13 lower boarders makes 105 of which and also the kindergarten who come I understand 12 girls are state scholar­ under a different heading. The average ship and 71 hoarders come from across. annual tuition fees, adding them all to­ Therefore the £390 that the boarders gether and dividing them by the from across pay represents £27,600, various types, the average annual that is the money that is coming into tuition fees at the Buchan is £240 and the economy. I do not think that this the state grant is £134. Therefore the is all that frequent; I only asked one real cost is £374, that represents about child and her answer was that “one or 36 per cent.; the grant represents about other of my parents try to come across 36 per cent, which means that more once a year but find it very expensive.” than a third of the Buchan pupils’ Of course, against that, the mainland tuition fees are paid by the state. It is parent does not pay into the Island difficult to say what a pupil costs the economy any income tax or any educa­ state at a secondary school, but taking tional rate. Just to look further at the the 101st Report of the Board of Edu­ boarding side, of thé 105 boarders less cation for 1973, and saying th a t there the 12 state scholarship girls, who of w ere 3,230 students in secondary course are paid for separately, and less schools for which the estimate was ap­ the 71 mainland overseas, that leaves proximately £700,000, then very ap­ 22 only. I was very surprised to find proximately you can say that each this, only 22 Island girls pay in full pupil in the secondary school costs the boarding fees of which we have heard state £260, and in the same way you £663 from the seniors and £633 from can reckon that a primary school child the juniors. Another point is this. When costs the state £140. Therefore, the I joined Tynwald three years ago the average cost to the state of a child in grant to the Buchan was estimated at its primary and secondary school is £30,000. This year’s Budget grant was £178 against the cost to the state of jusrt aver £39,000. As I think we heard, £134 to a pupil at the Buchan School. this - represents half the teachers’ I am bringing this out because I feel salaries and I understand half the con­ that this must be fairly said, that in tribution to the- teachers’ superannua­ actual fact the amount the state pays tion fees. I must point out in this con­ to the Buchan would come — if the nection, those of us that listened to the Buchan had to close and the pupils had Hawton Report that came out just be­ to go to the secondary schools and the fore the weekend, they have recom­ primary schools, then-'in actual fact the mended a 30 per cent, increase to state would be paying very little extra

Grant to Buchan Educational Trust—Withdrawn T244 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 for those children. It works out about filling up and emptying. Apart from the same. The parents who are paying that, the state children turn one way in educational rates are getting that Arbory Street and the fee-paying chil­ value out of the state at the moment dren .turn the other. In the 1970’s this at the Buchan. I do not want it to ;be sort of social division is absolutely in­ thought that the state is paying too tolerable. (Hear, hear). I cannot tell much to the Buchan; it is paying you how upset I feel when my youngs­ roughly what it would cost it to edu­ ters, the girls — and I have only asked cate those children either in primary the ones who have actually left Castle schools or secondary schools. I am also Rushen •— how they felt about the situa­ saying that the parents are getting tion when they were at school, and something back for their education without exception they have said to me, rates, roughly just about the same. I oh, we recognised we were considered feel that point is important. I person­ in.erior. That may have been all right ally think it is important that parents 30 years ago, .but in my opinion it was should have a free choice in how they the most unfortunate .'bit of planning educate their children. I have tried to that ever took place in the educational explain to you that at the moment both circles of this Island. I do feel very sides, I think, get a pretty even deal, seriously that I cannot ask any of my but the motion before us completely constituents to pay in an indirect or alters this financial balance. I have al­ direct way through their spendings to la ways believed that capital projects, as capital grant or loan charges towards far as possible, should be paid for out this project in which they themselves of revenue. At the moment this is not will have no benefit. possible and we are burdening our children, our grandchildren and our Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I rise great-grandchildren with our borrowing, only for one reason probably more than and this is going to add to the burden. another, in reaction to what the hon. Our own needs, as has already been member said who has just sat down. It said, for the state capital schemes are is in my view quite wrong to say that phenomenal. In this Budget, I think, every child who goes to a boarding we were to spend just over £2,000,000 school or private school is done to be on on capital projects. The West needs a a different plateau; this is jusit not true. new secondary school, but, Castle Because I sent three of . my children to Rushen is bulging at the seams, just boarding schoo’, the reason being they about 700 pupils. By 1980 the num ber were spending three hours travelling of pupils will be 850; that is merely back and forward. The little one, if we reckoning on the numbers already in get a school in the West will go to the pipeline in the South. If the prog­ school in the West. But it gives no nostications of “Peters Population of child an opportunity, a proper oppor­ the Island” — the thing we were given tunity, if they are spending three hours to read — comes into existence, which travelling back and forward to school. God forbid, the number of children to This is the miain reason I get to my feet. be educated could be anybody’s guess. I find it very difficult. I can see the I must say that my most serious ob­ merits of supporting it, but I am very jection to this motion, in front of us is anxious also to get a school in the West the fact that this school is going to be of the Island. So I find myself in a bit built at Westhill exactly opposite the of a dilemma. Incidentally, my daugh­ entrance to Castle Rushen. It is a very ter did not go to the Buchan. I would congested area, that road is an absolute point out this. Another thing that I do deathtrap when the children are com­ not think everybody appreciates — I ing and going and when the schools are know children who have gone to the

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Buchan School because their .parents amount to approximately £47,000 a were engaged in Her Majesty’s Forces year. In addition to that, for some five overseas, and in that caipaeity it has weeks every year there is accommoda­ done a very useful job. It is difficult tion for a hundred people to come and for people in this category who move stay at the school so that we have an­ about in various parts of the world to other perhaps £1,500 a year irom that give their children a proper opportunity source. We regarded the school there­ in education. It ¡becomes quite a prob­ fore as something in the order of an lem. export industry in that it did produce an income to the Island. It was be­ Mr. Simcocks: Thank you, Your Ex­ cause the governors of the school were cellency. .1 must declare my interest as anxious not to impinge upon the vote a governor of the school, tout I would: of the Board of Education that it was like to take this opportunity of explain­ thought proper that a petition should be ing the circumstances of the approach sent to the Governor in Executive Coun­ to the Executive Council ;whioh ap­ cil so that it could be serviced through peared to some hon. members to sug­ that way. It was sent to the Board of gest some irregularity. Education for its approval, not so that the money should be charged to the Mr. Bell: Of which you are a mem­ Board of Education, rather that Execu­ ber. tive Council and Finance Board should Mr. Simcocks: I am also a member of be satisfied in the report of the Board this - Tynwald Court. However, the that the school was in fact sound edu­ situation was this. This school has been cationally. It has always been under­ in existence for a very long time and stood that any money which the school will be celebrating its centenary next received would be quite outside any year. The governors have for many money the Board of Education would years been trying to consolidate its receive and I would ask hon. members position by moving the whole school on to remember that it is a very long- time to the one site at Westhill. It has been indeed, so iar as I can recall, that any felt and recognised by educational vote of money for the Board of Educa­ authorities in the past that the Buchan tion has been turned down by this: School does in fact make a fair and Court. This is a school which has reasonable contribution to the educa­ formed a very considerable part of tional life of the Island; in fact it is a the education o' the Island. It direct grant school. I would like how­ does suffer from the fact th a t fpar- ever to correct one point of mistake that ents are prepared to spend more has been made. There is ¡a grant not on sons who go to King William's of half the school teachers’ salaries, but College than on girls who go to the of half the increase in the school teach­ Buchan School, but I would have ers’ salaries since 1954. W hen it was thought that from the point of view of decided to approach the Government for the general benefit which the school some assistance in this building scheme does confer on the education of the it was felt by the governors of the school Island as a whole it offers the only that it ¡would be u n fair to approach tMs boarding school for girls lin the Island, problem entirely from an educational I would have thought that this Court point of view. There are you see, Your might well agree with the scheme put Excellency, a ’arge number of girls both before us. I should say that the gover­ boarders and day jirls whose parents nors of the school ask for no more than live outside the Isle of Man. The re­ they should receive help. The scheme sult of this is that their fees are paid put forward today is not one which was from sources outside the Island and at concocted by the governors themselves. the moment those fees ¡and extras I appreciate that the feelings of the

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Court today appear to be somewhat ad­ grant.” They have considered assistance. verse to this resolution. Nevertheless I They have been told assistance should do not think that we should consider be g*ven ¡but the full Board h as never sat this from a cold hard Ibusiruss point of down yet and discussed the amount of view whether or not the general benefit money being asked for today. I believe, of the Island would be served by con­ Your Excellency, that these things tinuing to have a first class girls’ public should be done at Board level by the school on the Island and whether the Boards and then the Boards come to Island and the Island’s education would Tynwald to get the final decision and be the worse off if the school ceased to I think it was because of this that exist. I do feel, sir, that this is a vote trouble is caused. I also feel I am in a which should foe ..supported. I under­ difficult position — I agree with what stand that this money will in no way Mr. Kneale has said. A quarter of a inhibit any of the ¡plans of the Board million pounds does not grow on trees of Education itself, sir. I would hope as the Chairman of the Finance Board that ths Court would give this reso­ is so regularly now telling us and quite lution a fair hearing and deal with it rightly so and it is a rather remarkable froen a purely non-emotional point of thing that this was not in the Budget. view. One of the things I used to always say when I was a colleague of his on the Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, Finance Board is how can the Finance you know in some ways I would have Board work anything out if every so liked to have supported this but I begin often during the year all sorts of odd to think that what has gone wrong with amounts are asked for outside the Bud­ this motion is the way it has been get not in the proposals of the Budget, handled. I am a great believer and the how can they possibly run a financial longer I am in this Court or the House system? Yet, as the member of the of Keys the more I believe in Boards Council, Mr. Nivison, brought our of Tynwald handling their own busi­ attention to there 'is no mention here ness. I remeir.lber when I firs! saw of this £J million grant being in any this on the Board of Education. I think ¡book of estim ates this year and so on it was wrong really in principle for the these grounds alone I will vote against governors of the school to have ap­ it. I also feel, Your Excellency, that I proached His Excellency and then I would have rathered this today go back believe either Exco or the Committee or to the Board of Education for the Board something. I think any educational itself to thrash out long before it came establishment in the Isle of Man seek­ before Tynwald long before it came to ing assistance or aid or advice or any­ Tynwald, so that the Board which thing else should go to the Board res­ makes the decision is the Board which ponsible to start with before they go is responsible. The Board makes a deci­ anywhere at all. Having gone to that sion and then if it is still thought Board, that Board should thrash it out it should go to Tynwald it then before they come to Tynwald and I am comes forward to Tynwald with very sorry for my Chairman today on its resolution. I do feel today that even this matter, because whilst the Board the Chairman when she was speaking had an inkling you know that assis­ she had on her mind, on her shoulders, tance was being sought, the Board has a very big educational problem. It is never discussed this sum of money and big indeed. I know my people in the I think had the Board itself — has West and my colleagues in the Shead­ nsver discussed a £imillion grant. The ing and most of the people in the West Eoard of Education has never said are saying having seen this they are “Yes, we will vote for a £J million saying “now all we are getting after

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fifty-two years of waiting” in 1922 the public school — but I could not accept people of the West of the Island were this at all because after all this is a promised a secondary school. The Cloth- school where people go because they workers’ Guild of London were pre­ choose to go there, or their parents do. pared to build a school at their ex­ We have to provide schools for the rest pense. Here was the oldest, the oldest of the children. This is our duty, it is non-publicly supported school in exis­ our statutory duty, we cannot get out tence in the Isle of Man, the Cloth- of this one and up to now we have not workers’ School of Peel. The Cloth- provided in the West what was pro­ workers’ Guild over three hundred mised in the West fifty-two years ago years had been supporting education in so I am against it. this Island and this Clothworkers’ Guild had said to the people of the Isle Sir Henry Su.gden: Thank you, Your of Man “we will build a secondary Excellency, I was for a time, shall school in the West.” They were told by I say director of King William’s the Authority at that time “Oh, no, edu­ College and there we d-d certain cation is now the responsibility of the building but we always found the State. You do not need to interfere any money ourselves. We did not go to the more. It will be built by Government” Board of Education for grants and so That was fifty-two years ago. What on. I have had the same letter as my have the people of the West of the colleague quoted from instructing me Island got today in this very Budget? to object to this grant and I do object £15,000. £15,000, Your Excellency, to {because I feel that it is so/nething buy the land and buy the land at a which the school should really do for rock bottom price because once again themselves. a very good Western family have said: “We will give you 10 acres of very good The Lord Bishop: Y our Excellency, I land for £15,000.” The value of that hope that hon. members will give me land today would probably be in the the opportunity of speaking without in­ region of, based on other land in Peel, terruption as this is the first time I £J million. If the people of the West have risen to my feet, to speak and I and families like this exist to give have listened with great attention money and assistance to build what through the day. In the last four they have always wanted I would much months, Your Excellency, I have had the rather see this £-} million, if it is so very great privilege of going to the available immediately being voted for parishes in the Diocese and in a num­ the secondary school in the West of the ber of cases, through the kindness of Island, because we need it, we need the headmaster or the headmistress of this School. I think the Court today, the schools, of visiting those schools. I Your Excellency, should realise they want to say that I feel that this Court talk of bussing in from Onchan to Dou­ must recognise that it still has a very glas, remember the children bussing in great responsibility to some of the from Dalby, Glen Maye, and all round schools which come under the control the wilds of the West who travel to of your Board of Education. I am think­ Peel to start with then travel to Dou­ ing of Foxdale with no playing field glas to get to school. The only section whatsoever. I was in that very fine of the Island, the only section of the school in Peel last Wednesday, crowded Island where a secondary school is not to the doors and waiting for extension. close to their home and I could not I was in Onchan on Tuesday and there honestly in all good faith with my those two fine schools are crowded and people accept today a vote of a ££ mil­ I spoke to six hundred children and I lion to assist — it may be a very fine know and I am most grateful to the

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member for Ramsey for saying what he when I look at the needs of the other did about the little school building at schools. Our children living in this Jurby and I hope that this Court will lovely Island are deserving of a not forget that it has a very real res­ good standard of education. Your Ex­ ponsibility to those and many other cellency, I am grateful to the Court for schools. Your children of age eleven and being patient. I would simply ask that over travel to Douglas or Ramsey from the Chairman would consider taking Peel and it is a very long journey, this back this afternoon rather than twice a day and so therefore our sym­ asking that it goes to a vote that may pathies go out to the Chairman of the be to the detriment of the governors Board of Education and she has many of the school and of education. problems to face. I have only once been in to the Buchan School and I walked Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I am through some buildings that I must one of those members of this hon. confess I was rather ashamed to see. Court and I am sure there are many Here is a school that is providing edu­ like me who are delighted that we have cation for some three hundred girls or in this Island a school of the standard more of varying ages from this Island of the Buchan School and I think it and indeed from overseas. A school that also might be said in the same context celebrates its centenary next year. The I am very proud of the fact that the governors in their wisdom have decided Island has a public school of the stan­ to build a new school right opposite the dard of King William’s College although Castle Rushen School. I know no rea­ I never had the privilege of going there. son why they did it because the deci­ I was very pleased to hear stated in sion was made long before I came and this Court this afternoon, Your Excel­ I am not a governor I am just a visitor lency, that the Buchan School already of the school whatever that may mean gets considerable help from the Govern­ and I have yet to discover that. Are ment by the Board of Education. I ap­ we at this moment going to reject this preciate the manner in which this ap­ acoMcation? I would ibeg the Chairman proach has been made by those respon­ of the Board of Education to take this sible with a view not to impinge upon back. I feel that she ought to take it the legitimate demands of the Board of back to consider it in her full Education Education. I think it is only right and Committee and to come forward with proper that we should pay tribute to her recommendations at the one and the Finance Board, if I took the hon. same time as she comes forward with Chairman of the Board of Education her budget requirements for 1975/76 right, there is some kind of an under­ (hear hear). I think in so doing it will taking given that cóme what may the assure this Court that it has been again Board of Education’s estimates for the carefully examined by the full Board, ensuing year will in no way suffer what­ that it takes its place with the other ever may be the fate of this particular requirements for education. I would resolution. Even having accepted that hope very much that in the centenary fact asi a member of one or two Boards year this Court will not say, Your Ex­ of Tynwald I am aware of the fact that cellency. a complete no to the require­ during the current financial year we ments of this school. It is making a very have received warnings from the real contribution in the field of educa- Finance Board that we can look for no !tion. Read the aciademic results for extra grants during the particular year 1973/74 and one cannot but be proud to our Board’s activities and therefore, of that school. I feel I cannot, particu­ sir, I have come to the conclusion that larly as a newcomer to this Court, sup­ this is not the time to support this par­ port a request for a quarter of a million ticular resolution, although in my view,

Grant to Buchan Educational Trust—¡Withdrawn TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T249 sir, it has all my sympathy. I think a matter of great importance to the there is a very real need to ensure that Island as a whole will receive due con­ this particular resolution is not killed sideration in the not too far distant outright and consequently I very future. I formally move the amendment warmly welcome the sentiments expres­ I have indicated to the Court, sir. sed by the Lord Bishop in his maiden speech upon which I would heartily Mr. Crellin: I will be brief, Your Ex­ congratulate him (hear, hear) and with cellency, as the hour is getting late, ¡but a view to ensuring that this is kept I would like the Chairman of the Board alive with a view to the hope that some of Education to assure me on one or ■time in the near future the Court will two points on which I have a certain see its way to give its full support I degree of misgiving. I served with am moving an amendment to this great pride on the Board of Education effect. (Laughter). It always amuses for five years before I went on to me the amusement that the the Finance Board and I served during mention of an amendment makes be­ the period when we invented this colos­ cause although I am a comparatively sus which appears now to be showing junior in the political field compared some faults. I would like her confirma­ with certain members ,1 see in this hon. tion that this resolution which is before Court I have come to the conclusion us was in fact properly considered by that politics consist of a tremendous the Finance and Executive Committee amount of compromise and I believe of the Board of Education, whether it that if any hon. member of this was late or whether it was early is a Court can move an amendment matter of supreme indifference, because that will ibring two sides together I do know that the moment that it came with a view to ensuring a wise before Finance Board it was whistled conclusion at the end of the road straight to the Board of Education for then I am all for amendments. But I their comment. I would like to am certainly for one today, sir, and I know if there has something gone am moving an amendment to the effect wrong with the Board of Education in that the resolution shall be reworded that it was not placed before the accordingly, that the words “approve Finance and Executive and if it was of” toe deleted and the following sub­ placed before the Finance and Execu­ stituted “His Excellency in consultation tive it would be the first time that a with the Finance Board take into con­ resolution of the Finance and Executive sideration when framing the budget for had not been confirmed by a meeting of 1975/6 the expenditure of” and then the full Board, because on all financial read on the wording beginning with “a matters it would appear to me that this sum not exceeding” and delete para­ is an essential role. Since the Buchan graph (b) of the resolution as it ap­ School is not an independent school, pears on the Agenda. That, sir, in my the hon. and gallant member for Ram­ view would ensure that this very large sey referred to the fact that King Wil­ sum of money is under conside­ liam’s College did their own work, well, ratio n when the budget is being- of course, because they are an indepen­ considered. I think the message which dent school as opposed to a direct grant has gone forth as far as my interpre­ school and this is what it is all about tation is concerned from the Court but no financial expenditure can be ap­ today is that this resolution will fail to proved certainly to come forward to re­ ■carry in its p resent form , tout I sincerely solution of Tynwald as far as I am con­ hope that the amendment will meet cerned unless it has the whole-hearted with the approval of a large majority approval of the Finance and Executive of this hon. Court and thus ensure that Committee of the Board of Education

Grant to Buchan Educational Trust—Withdrawn T250 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 and of the Board of Education itself and this debate this afternoon. I realised I would like reassurance on that. as I listened to them the immense amount of work that so many hon. Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I would members had done in looking up facts like to oppose the amendment. and working on the sulbject and I think that we all desire to do the very best for both the Buchan School and for the The Deputy Governor: It has not good of the Island as a whole and its been seconded. You have spoken and position in it and so I feel myself most the amendment has not been seconded grateful for all the contributions of all so I cannot take a speech from you at hon. members this afternoon but I do this moment. feel that i|: I may have the permission of this hon. Court the wisest and the best Mr. Creer: Your Excellency, I will be thing would be if I might have permis­ ¡brief. I cannot see t-his resolution pass­ sion to withdraw the motion. ing this hon. Court this afternoon in this form and I would suggest that The Deputy Governor: If the hon. along with the Lord Bishop’s proposi­ member does that I ought to draw at­ tion that Miss Thornton - Duesbery tention also to Standing Order 58 should withdraw because I am sure that which provides that a motion which this could go through in a different has been by leave of Tynwald with­ form altogether. I would be in favour, drawn may 'be made again at a later Your Excellency, of giving them an in­ date. The motion is not yet seconded. terest free loan for twenty years. A member: I beg to second. Mr. Bell: You are joking, you could not give anyone that. The Deputy Governor: It has been seconded. The hon. member, Mr. Bell. Mr. Creer: And I think that should Are you speaking on the motion? be done because I hope that the hon. Chairman will withdraw the resolution Mr. Bell: I am speaking against the now and defer it for a month. recent motion, Your Excellency. There have been so many contributors to the The Deputy Governor: Before any original resolution and so many ques­ other members speak I think I ought tions put that the replies ought to be to tell you that the hon. memlber who is given at this Tynwald Court and can in charge of this motion has told me only be given I feel if the motion to that in accordance with Standing Order withdraw is defeated and not only the 52 she wishes to make a motion to with­ members of Tynwald Court but the draw the same by the leave of this members of the Press and the public Court. will today get the answers, the very answers to the very pertinent ques­ Members: Agreed. (Interruption). tions that the hon. and gallant member for Rushen, Mr. Crellin, has put and other members of the Board of Educa­ The Deputy Governor: Now w ait a tion have put. I think it is most impor­ minute, the hon. member has not made tant, Your Excellency, that disregarding such a resolution yet. completely the financial implications of the original resolutions but the basic Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Excel­ principle of debate and answer in Tyn­ lency, I would first of all wish to thank wald can only be achieved by voting all hon. members who participated in against the second motion to allow the

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withdrawal of this resolution. I would mechanisms that have been used to vote against the withdrawal of this bring it before the Court. I have also resolution and then let us get on to been interested in the ploy of my Lord getting the questions answered by the Bishop, supported by my learned mover of the original resolution. namesake over there and the Chairman of the Finance Board who at all costs Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, may I want to keep this issue alive. support the motion to withdraw the re­ solution and I do cross swords with the Mr. Bolton: Who said so? hon. member for South Douglas in his plea for questions to be answered. The Speaker: You. You might as well There have been very few questions face up to it. Here is one of the men asked this afternoon. They have nearly who brought it before this House all been (statements in opposition to through Executive Council and Finance supporting the Buchan School. There is Board without the Board of Education. no question about that and very largely idealogical motivations. Mr. Bolton: I did not. The Speaker: Without the Board of Mr. MacDonald: That is not true. Education — Mr. Bolton: It is true. There is no Mr. Bolton: You know that is not shadow of a doubt, that is the main true. reason, that is the main reason for the opposition. I have felt very sym­ The Speaker: — having any answers pathetic. I realise fully that £250,000 is on this at all. a very considerable amount of money, but I would feel and particularly so Mr. Bolton: You know that is not — along with the Lord Bishop and with the hon. member, Mr. Kerruish, that The Deputy Governor: The hon. mem­ to wipe this out completely by an ad­ ber must not interrupt. verse vote at this time would be wrong, but if the Court is not satisfied that the The Speaker: We have been informed £250,000 grant on the terms suggested this afternoon that the Board of Educa­ is justified then they should give an tion have taken no decision on this opportunity for the Board and even for £250,000 whatsoever. That has not been the governors of the Buchan School, denied and I am sure my hon. colleague for everybody concerned to give more would have denied it immediately if it thought to it instead of killing it stone was untrue so I (take it to be the truth. dead because this is what is happening So, Your Excellency, we find ourselves if we do not allow the hon. member to in the position this afternoon of either withdraw it. I believe she should be being clear in our position on this mat­ allowed to withdraw it and that the in­ ter and saying we are not going to ac­ terest of those who wish to kill it cept a grant of £250,000 for the Buchan should not be listened to in the Court and who could, after hearing the hon. today. member for Castletown and the hon. member for Ramsey this afternoon, The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am possibly accept such a grant being made opposing the withdrawal of this motion. to this school with the limited benefits I have been very dissatisfied with the it confers on the Island, with its own whole presentation and I have been prospects of putting its house in order very interested really in the sort of because of a differing political situa­

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tion that is developing on the other The Deputy Governor: The question side. Sir Henry was right in his assess­ of fact? ment here. It is capable of putting its house in order. Let it do so and let Mr. Bolton: The question of fact. those who are anxious that it should The Deputy Governor: Right. do so work to that end but not implor­ ing the Manx taxpayer to go in with Mr. Bolton: The suggestion by Mr. £250,000 when there is so much wrong Speaker is that this is engineered by in our own set-up, when kids in our Finance Board and — own schools have to go to mother and ask for a hand-out which mother can The Speaker: I said you were in sup­ ill afford for providing the necessities port of it. for domestic1 training in school. Have Mr. Bolton: You did say more than you ever thought of that aspect and we were in support of it. You said that poor old Mum having to cough up it was brought to the Court. What I money that she can barely afford to am suggesting, sir, is this that the pay for the domestic training? These Finance Board have not been instru­ are all part and parcel of the set-up mental in bringing this before the that we are facing at the present time Court. and we are blithely proposing that we should adjourn this matter to let the Mr. Radcliffe: Very briefly, Your Ex­ Board consider it. I believe, Your Ex­ cellency, I could toe quoted as another cellency, that to do so would toe wrong, who agreed to support the resolution as completely wrong in principle that the today put before us and I think one House must express its viewpoint and thing I would like to clarify in the first make it clear where it stands and if it place without going into any great de­ stands in favour of such a grant being tail. The report on this suggestion came made by all means say so to the to the Governor in Executive Council Board, but do not let the Board have in April 1973 and it was sent to the the opinion expressed to it that because Board of Education at that time and three members of the Council have came back with a memo to the Execu­ spoken this afternoon and sat on the tive Council in July 1974 so a consider­ fence that we are in support of this able amount of time was given to con­ move being made. That would be very sidering it and I think the Board of wrong indeed and I for one will not Education must certainly have con­ support any resolution which will get sidered the fact that of these 340 child­ this off the hook which has been so ren that we have, we do have a con­ adroitly placed for this Court to swal­ siderable numtoer of them within the low. Isle of Man, where if we do not support the idea that we support the Buchan The Deputy Governor: The hon. School the Board of Education will member Mr. Bolton, seemed to object have to face up to the fact they have to remarks that have been made by got to educate them at some other Mr. Speaker. If he wishes to do so he school anyhow. can stand up now and say on what grounds he objects. Mr. MacDonald: Well, they could do that. Mr. Bolton: I do object, Your Excel­ lency, most strongly to the suggestion Mr. Radcliffe: And it is obvious to that this is a Finance Board move at anybody, considering the financial as­ all and the matter has toeen discussed pect of it that as long as parents are between Finance Board and the . . . paying a contribution towards their

Grant to Buchan Educational Trust—(Withdrawn TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 T253 children’s education it is not going to choice will remain possible and this cost any more — as the hon. member will be a magnet for people who care for Castletown said — than what it is for their children who are delicate, going to cost for giving this contribu­ their children who are backward, their tion. I listened to the hon. member with c.iildren who cannot just cope with the great interest. I honestly thought that rough and tumble of big comprehen­ in most of her speech she was support­ sive schools. I know what I am talking ing the resolution and then to turn about. I have sat in front of some of round at the finish and say she was not the children. supporting it because of the children coming out of the school, some going Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, as a one way and some going another, basi­ member of the Board I have listened cally I think this is pathetic: We are with great interest to this debate and I talking about educating children and I apologise for toeing rather late in the hope the hon. members here this after­ day making a small contribution, but I noon paid great attention to the hon. must admit that I do feel the heat and member of the Council now, our worthy passion generated toy Mr. Speaker was colleague, Mr. Simcocks. I think he ex­ toy and large a load of red herrings. We plained in great detail the benefit the are talking here about education and in­ Isle of Man accrues not only from the deed freedom in education is as im­ King William’s College but also from portant as education itself in my the Buchan School. If you consider the opinion. Surely there has been a great amount of money brought into the Isle deal of mumbo-jumtoo by Mr. Speaker of Man by the boarders that come in on the question of procedure. Could we from outside the Isle of Man that alle­ get back now to the basic point of edu­ viates any expenditure I would say on cation? If in fact the bon. member for this Manx Government so we are Council, Mr. Kerruish’s amendment therefore only considering the expendi­ which I second, Your Excellency, is ap­ ture on the children going there who proved this in essence means the mat­ live and reside within the Isle of Man ter is referred back and considered in and I think if you .will calculate the conjunction with the Finance Board. If difference in 'What it would cost the on the other hand the hon. mover’s re­ Government one way or the other you quest that the matter toe withdrawn is will be wiser today to support this reso­ ¡passed then the matter can be con­ lution. If you defer it today, you will sidered by the Board of Education. I bring it back in six months’ time and think it is semantics as to which of by that time the cost of doing this de­ those Boards in fact discusses it. Per­ velopment will have gone up another sonally the ideal I think would be if fifty per cent so I sincerely hope the tooth Boards sat down together and dis­ Court will not just throw this matter cussed it but surely that is a detail. By out without giving that consideration. defeating any or all of these particular motions before us today the problem is Miss Cowin: Thank you, Your Excel­ still going to be with us, Your Excel­ lency. I would think it a great matter lency. It is just not going to go away of distress if we deprive people of free­ and children's education is wheit is at dom of choice in the matter of educa­ stake here. I believe very much in­ tion. deed with my hon. colleague that the statistics provided by the hon. member Mr. MacDonald: We are trying not to. for Castletown were most enlightening and I congratulate her too on the home­ Miss Cowin: This is one place in the work she has evidently done on this adjoining islands where freedom of subject. I too would come back to the

Grant to Buchan Educational Trust-W ithdrawn T254 TYNWALD COURT, NOVEMBER 19th, 1974 hon. member for-Council, Mr. Simcocks’ resulted as follows:— - - - ■ remarks 'and- in >a nutshell they mean that the income derived by the Isle of In the Keys:— - - - Man from without is of the order of £1,000 per week. If we are talking of For: Messrs.. Anderson, Kermeen, twenty , five years or twenty years for Cluoas, Radcliffe, Miss Thornton^ the .period of this grant a consideratole Duesbery, Messrs.. Creer, Spittall, amount -of money, bearing in mind in­ Crellin, Faragher, Mrs. Quayle, Mr. flation and the inevitable increase in Irving, Miss Cowin, Messrs. Mac­ fees, a considerable amount of money Donald, Hislop, and Sir Henfy^Sug- will flow into this Island. I think it is den — 15. - ■ . " to toe. wholly welcomed and so this is not an exclusively educational issue. Against: Messrs. Ranson, Moore, Bell, There are other and -very important Ward and the Speaker ■— 5. . issues .at stake. I very urgently implore hon. members to support either the idea The Speaker: Your Excellency, the that the matter should be withdrawn or resolution carries, fifteen votes being failing that the amendment tabled by cast in favour and five votes against. the hon. member for Council, Mr. Ker- ruish. The Deputy Governor: Thank you.

The Deputy Governor: The procedure In the Council:— will toe this when it comes to the ques­ tion of voting that the first motion be­ For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs, Bolton, fore the Court will be the motion by Quayle, Nivison, Crowe, Kerruish the hon. mover for leave to withdraw and Simcocks — 7. thè same from Tynwald. If that is suc­ cessful it is withdrawn. If that is not Against: Mr. Kneale — 1. successful then the debate continues and in the debate continuing there is the ' The Deputy Governor: The motion original resolution and there is an for leave to withdraw has passed, in both amendment which has now been moved Branches and therefore has passed the and seconded. Do you wish to take the Court and of course, as I mentioned leave to withdraw vote now? earlier under Standing Order 58 the motion which has now been withdrawn toy leave may be proposed again at a Members: Yes. later date. Is this an appropriate: op­ portunity to adjourn? The Deputy Governor: All right. The motion is that the hon. member be given Members: Yes, Agreed, (laughter). leave of Tynwald to withdraw the motion. Those in favour of the leave to The Deputy Governor: Then the Court withdraw toeing given please say aye will stand adjourned until ll0-30 and those against say no. o’clock tomorrow.

A division was called for and voting The Court adjourned.

Grant,to Buchan Educational Trust—Withdrawn