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NORTHWEST TERRITORIES LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

5th Session Day 86 17th Assembly

HANSARD

Thursday, October 1, 2015

Pages 6559 – 6620

The Honourable Jackie Jacobson, Speaker Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories Members of the Legislative Assembly

Speaker Hon. Jackie Jacobson (Nunakput)

______

Hon. Glen Abernethy Mrs. Jane Groenewegen Mr. Kevin Menicoche (Great Slave) (Hay River South) (Nahendeh) Minister of Health and Social Services Minister responsible for Mr. Robert Hawkins Hon. J. Michael Persons with Disabilities (Yellowknife Centre) Miltenberger Minister responsible for Seniors (Thebacha) Hon. Jackson Lafferty Government House Leader Hon. Tom Beaulieu Minister of Finance (Monfwi) Minister of Environment and Natural (Tu Nedhe) Deputy Premier Minister of Human Resources Resources Minister of Education, Culture and Minister responsible for the Minister of Transportation Employment NWT Power Corporation Minister of Public Works and Minister responsible for the Workers’ Services Safety and Compensation Commission Mr. Alfred Moses Ms. Wendy Bisaro (Inuvik Boot Lake) (Frame Lake) Hon. Bob McLeod (Yellowknife South) Mr. Michael Nadli Mr. Frederick Blake Premier (Deh Cho) (Mackenzie Delta) Minister of Executive Minister of Aboriginal Affairs and Hon. David Ramsay Mr. Robert Bouchard Intergovernmental Relations (Kam Lake) Minister responsible for Women (Hay River North) Minister of Justice Minister of Industry, Tourism Mr. Bob Bromley Hon. Robert C. McLeod and Investment (Inuvik Twin Lakes) Minister responsible for the (Weledeh) Minister of Municipal and Public Utilities Board Community Affairs Mr. Daryl Dolynny Minister of Lands Mr. Norman Yakeleya (Range Lake) Minister responsible for the (Sahtu) NWT Housing Corporation Minister responsible for Youth

______Officers Clerk of the Legislative Assembly Mr. Tim Mercer

Deputy Clerk Principal Clerk, Principal Clerk, Committee Clerk Law Clerks Committees and Corporate and Trainee Public Affairs Interparliamentary Affairs Mr. Doug Schauerte Mr. Michael Ball Ms. Gail Bennett Mrs. Danielle Mager Ms. Sheila MacPherson Ms. Malinda Kellett Mr. Glen Rutland ______Box 1320 Yellowknife, Northwest Territories Tel: (867) 669-2200 Fax: (867) 920-4735 Toll-Free: 1-800-661-0784 http://www.assembly.gov.nt.ca Published under the authority of the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories 4

1) TABLE OF CONTENTS

PRAYER...... 6559

MINISTERS' STATEMENTS...... 6559

226-17(5) – 2014-2015 Public Works and Services Energy Conservation Projects Annual Report (Beaulieu)...... 6559

227-17(5) – Tourism Highlights (Ramsay)...... 6560

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS...... 6561

Impact of Fiscal Restraint on the Public Service (Hawkins)...... 6561

Flexibility in the Delivery of Government of the Northwest Territories Programs (Groenewegen)...... 6561

Shortage of Long-Term Care Facilities for Seniors (Bromley)...... 6562

Mackenzie Delta Elders Care Facilities (Blake)...... 6563

Great Slave Lake Fishery (Bouchard)...... 6563

Establishing of NWT Ombudsman Office (Bisaro)...... 6563

Sahtu Child Care Requirements (Yakeleya)...... 6564

NWT Housing Corporation Repair and Renovation Programs (Menicoche)....6564

GNWT Debt and Borrowing Capacity (Dolynny)...... 6564

Inuvik-Tuktoyaktuk Highway Project (Moses)...... 6565

Kakisa Community Hall Grand Opening (Nadli)...... 6566

Tu Nedhe High School Graduates (Beaulieu)...... 6566

Condolences to Tlicho Families on Recent Passing Tragedies (Lafferty)...... 6566

RECOGNITION OF VISITORS IN THE GALLERY...... 6567

ORAL QUESTIONS...... 6567

REPORTS OF COMMITTEES ON THE REVIEW OF BILLS...... 6578 TABLING OF DOCUMENTS...... 6578

NOTICES OF MOTION...... 6578

Motion 48-17(5) – Northwest Territories Disabilities Services (Bromley)...... 6578

FIRST READING OF BILLS...... 6579

Bill 68 – An Act to Amend the Child and Family Services Act, No. 2...... 6579

CONSIDERATION IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE OF BILLS AND OTHER MATTERS 6579

REPORT OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE...... 6619

ORDERS OF THE DAY...... 6619 October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 6

YELLOWKNIFE, NORTHWEST TERRITORIES Thursday, October 1, 2015 Members Present Hon. Glen Abernethy, Hon. Tom Beaulieu, Ms. Bisaro, Mr. Blake, Mr. Bouchard, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Dolynny, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Hawkins, Hon. Jackie Jacobson, Hon. Jackson Lafferty, Hon. Bob McLeod, Hon. Robert McLeod, Mr. Menicoche, Hon. Michael Miltenberger, Mr. Moses, Mr. Nadli, Hon. David Ramsay, Mr. Yakeleya

have worked to set targets, create The House met at 1:31 p.m. guidelines and develop both outward and inward energy strategies. We are 2) Prayer now entering into a “new normal” of how government operates. ---Prayer In the five years since the Department of SPEAKER (Hon. Jackie Jacobson): Public Works and Services first started Good afternoon, colleagues. Item 2, reporting on its energy conservation Ministers’ statements. Minister of Public activities, the GNWT has progressively Works and Services, Mr. Beaulieu. improved its energy performance in a number of important areas, including: 3) Ministers’ Statements  generating cumulative operational MINISTER'S STATEMENT 226-17(5): savings of $8 million; 2014-2015 PUBLIC WORKS AND  reducing GNWT energy usage in SERVICES major assets such as schools by up ENERGY CONSERVATION to 15 percent and overall energy PROJECTS usage in government assets by 5 ANNUAL REPORT percent; HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The 2014-  reducing our dependence on fossil 2015 Public Works and Services Energy fuel for heating buildings by 3.5 Conservation Projects Annual Report million litres annually, which is published in June 2015 is both a equivalent to 9,500 tonnes of retrospective of what the Government of greenhouse gas emissions; the NWT has achieved since annual reporting first began and an overview of important changes we have made to support this work going forward. During the life of the 17th Legislative Assembly, finding energy solutions and  the installation of 18 large commercial focusing on energy conservation and technology have become an integral biomass boiler systems, nine in the part of how government operates. Since last year alone, increasing our wood the first biomass project in 2007, we pellet usage by 86 percent in a single year; October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 7

 establishing the Capital Asset Retrofit years, operating effectively and Fund Program which now produces efficiently is more important than ever. over $1.7 million in annual Continuing energy conservation efforts operational savings as the program will be an important part of that. At the is quickly becoming self-sufficient in same time, our newly consolidated funding future energy projects; and energy activity can contribute to  incorporating opportunities for government work in addressing the high alternative and renewable energy as cost of living through continued public part of the planning for all new education and information sharing, building projects coming forward for identification of energy options and consideration in the GNWT’s annual policy development. Infrastructure Acquisition Plan. Going forward, the 18th Legislative Operationally, this means a new set of Assembly will be better positioned than practices, procedures and ever to support energy conservation and considerations which prioritize energy efficiency efforts and to assist the public efficiency and conservation in the in benefitting from what we have learned design, construction and operation of all as a government. Thank you, Mr. new government buildings have become Speaker. standardized over the course of this MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. government. Beaulieu. Minister of Tourism, Mr. The 17th Legislative Assembly has also Ramsay. taken steps to ensure the GNWT is MINISTER'S STATEMENT 227-17(5): positioned to build upon the successes TOURISM HIGHLIGHTS of the past several years by bringing our energy programs together and creating HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Mr. Speaker, I a focal point for energy policy, initiatives rise today to report positive results and and management within our trends from this government’s government. investments and initiatives in the NWT tourism sector. On April 1, 2015, the new energy activity of PWS was established, bringing The official tourism statistics for the last together energy expertise from across fiscal year will be available in late government. Combining the project October but the preliminary results are management, planning, fuel services promising. We are seeing a broad and building operations expertise of spectrum of interest in the tourism PWS with those areas of government activities available in the Northwest focused on policy development and Territories. In particular, the segment of promotion of renewable energy visitors from China, who are commonly solutions means the GNWT is better associated with aurora viewing, are positioned to respond to future exploring well beyond this sector. opportunities in the planning and For example, this past summer, 50 management of our energy needs. Chinese tourists travelled the Dempster Mr. Speaker, with a flat revenue outlook Highway to Inuvik. There they and a need to take a hard look at how participated in numerous events and we are spending our money in coming activities, including a community feast and drum dance. It was, they say, an October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 8 unforgettable experience – and still season; demand for river adventures in more evidence of the unique and the Mackenzie Mountains west of spectacular tourism product that is Norman Wells was at record levels, and available to those who choose the NWT tour operators on Great Slave Lake as a destination for their holidays and worked virtually without a break business travel. throughout the summer. Since January 2014, the Northern Preliminary estimates indicate that the Frontier Visitors Centre in Yellowknife number of campground permits issued has received close to 7,000 visitors from this season is up by 14 percent over last China, a number that represents an summer. Satisfaction with our parks incredible growth in this target market. amenities and services remains high, Only four years ago the number of and public response to the Cultural Chinese visitors to our territory was in Interpretive Program offered this past the low hundreds. summer, especially in the Beaufort- The growth in the Chinese market is not Delta parks system, was an accident. It has been strategically overwhelmingly positive. advanced by our government’s trade The strength of an increased tourism missions to China; supported by demand is evidenced in the new capital investments, made through the investments we are witness to in Department of Industry, Tourism and Yellowknife’s accommodation sector Investment, into the operators and and the investments that communities businesses that make up the tourism across the NWT are advancing to sector, and enhanced by new marketing improve the appeal of their local tourism funds approved by this Assembly for infrastructure and product. NWT Tourism. Communities such as Inuvik, The value of these efforts was Tsiigehtchic, Jean Marie River, Fort confirmed when the Premier and I had Simpson, Deline, Fort McPherson, and the opportunity to host His Excellency Lutselk’e have all partnered with the Luo Zhaohui, Ambassador of China to GNWT this year to invest in trails, Canada, on his first visit to the signage, visitor centres, and other Northwest Territories earlier this month. improvements with a view to attract and A visit from China’s highest ranking retain visitors and improve their travel official in Canada was a great experience in the NWT. opportunity to show off the tremendous We know that the awareness and tourism offerings in this region as well recognition for our territory’s existing as in Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk. During his attractions and infrastructures is also visit, Ambassador Luo remarked on the growing, as evidenced, earlier this year, natural beauty of this territory and our by Explore Magazine, which named well-developed infrastructure. He also Queen Elizabeth Territorial Park near spoke publicly about his interest in doing Fort Smith as one of the Top 25 more to support and promote NWT Campsites in Canada. tourism at home in China. Through training and skills development, Meanwhile, Mr. Speaker, tour operators we have supported our capital spending in the North Slave and Sahtu regions with investments in the men and women are reporting an excellent summer October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 9 who make up our tourism sector. With a expecting these numbers to rise even full suite of training and skills higher based on the strength of this development workshops, ITI has worked year’s summer tourism season. with the NWT tourism industry to Supporting promising and successful advance the safety, hospitality and the sectors like tourism is an important part business savvy of our many and varying of our effort to foster the kind of operators and business owners. economic growth this territory needs to We have also seen considerable growth build a prosperous future and ensure in the Aboriginal tourism sector, with a our government has the resources it number of Aboriginal-owned and needs to deliver programs and services operated tourism businesses growing to our residents. and thriving over the life of this Mr. Speaker, the tourism industry that government. we recognize in our territory today is Since 2014-15, we have leveraged over strong and growing. It is a testament to $1 million in federal investment to match the wisdom of this Assembly’s decision- GNWT investments in tourism making, in the face of tough economic businesses, skills development and conditions, to invest in a sector that is Aboriginal community tourism, a growing, bringing new dollars into our reflection of the shared commitment that economy and creating jobs and exists at all levels of government to opportunity throughout the territory. I developing a healthy tourism economy. would like to thank this Assembly for its I am also pleased to report that the support for our territory’s tourism and NWT’s new Convention Bureau, still in parks sector, the results of which I am the first full year of operation, has able to share today. Thank you, Mr. confirmed five events. Another six are Speaker. in the offing. They represent an MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. estimated $1.8 million in future Ramsay. Item 3, Members’ statements. conference revenues, not to mention Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. spinoff benefits for transportation Hawkins. suppliers, restaurants, artisans and tourism operators throughout the 4) Members’ Statements territory. MEMBER’S STATEMENTS ON At a time when our economy is IMPACT OF FISCAL RESTRAINT challenged by a downturn in resource ON THE PUBLIC SERVICE exploration and development, a weak dollar and the impacts of a worldwide MR. HAWKINS: On Tuesday I voiced recession, our tourism sector has my concerns about the impact of the remained strong and shown signs of Finance Minister’s fiscal restraint vibrancy and growth. measures on the morale of the public service. Mr. Speaker, quite frankly, I Annual visitors’ spending in 2013-14 don’t understand the mixed messages was $132.5 million. Despite the fires that being sent by this government to the impacted travellers in the summer of people of the NWT that we serve, 2014, we are recognizing modest especially to people who serve us each increases for 2014-15 and we are and every day by doing the job diligently October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 10 and conscientiously and keeping the than a scant 18 months after government programs running and devolution? ticking along each and every day. The GNWT has known for a long time The Premier and Ministers of this by considering many options by trying to Cabinet finally say to this House, our strategize itself for revenue growth and employees are our most valuable we’ve known it’s very limited, but assets. I happen to agree with that controlling the cost by cutting away jobs statement, but what is the point of this is certainly not the way to attract government repeating this tired phrase employees or strengthen morale. We when its actions go along with the must find a different way. platitudes from these Ministers? I will be asking questions of the Minister This government has a Population of Human Resources about the impact Strategy meant to tempt 2,000 new of this fiscal restraint on our Human residents to the NWT to make their Resource Strategy. Thank you, Mr. home here by 2019 as a way to Speaker. increase their federal transfer dollars. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. The GNWT remains one of the NWT’s Hawkins. Member for Hay River South, biggest employers, so it must be Mrs. Groenewegen. prepared to hire these new residents. Why would anyone take a job with the MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON GNWT and move their families here if FLEXIBILITY IN THE DELIVERY they risk losing their job in the next OF Assembly’s collateral damage because GOVERNMENT OF THE of fiscal restraint? NORTHWEST TERRITORIES This government also has a Human PROGRAMS Resources Workforce Planning MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, Strategy, a multi-pronged effort to Mr. Speaker. We have stated goals and maintain the GNWT as an employer of initiatives of this government. For choice and to maximize recruitment and example, educating people. To that end, certainly retention of employees. How we boast the best SFA, student financial about the efforts of the Department of assistance, system in the country. Human Resources to operate the multi- We have a stated goal of increasing the year strategy along with the Finance population of the NWT by 2,000 people. Minister’s transition plan in exercising These are well-known goals and design, in his own words, to make sure strategies that we work and expend revenues and expenditures on an resources to advance. However, every ongoing basis stay the same and plan day we hear of anomalies, for what has been determined to be a contradictions and decisions based on flat economy with revenues going down. policy that fly in the face of these goals. Frankly, I must point out that the GNWT I believe in rules and transparencies, but increased its workforce by 260 new sometimes our policies lack discretion employees and positions in the and common sense in applying these devolution process. How can this policies in real life situations. government possibly be considering lay- offs as a fiscal restraint measure less October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 11

This week in the House, my colleague probably avoiding a very expensive care from Hay River North shared the story of and support that would otherwise be a constituent, born, raised and educated provided to government service and in the NWT, moving south for a period of agencies. time and upon return to enroll in Mr. Speaker, I know we need rules. I northern post-secondary program with know the staff on the front-line positions support of SFA is required to re- managing these programs are only establish residency for a whole year with doing their jobs in compliance with those no regard for their lifelong residency in rules and implementing too much the North. The message is don’t come discretionary latitude can also be a home, don’t pursue higher education. slippery slope. It’s well known that young people often I seek unanimous consent to conclude decide to work or travel between high my statement. school and post-secondary education. Could there not be some ---Unanimous consent granted accommodation for that reality? MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Implementing Then there’s the single parent in public too much discretionary latitude can also housing who goes south to educational be a slippery slope, as we know. But opportunities to improve their life. They surely we, as a government, committed come home for the summer no longer to our goals and stated priorities, could eligible for any housing support because find a way to expeditiously deal with technically doesn’t conform to the these situations that arise. I know it residency requirement. Why come sounds like the job of an ombudsman, home? but for now it remains the domain of MLAs advocating for constituents and Then there’s the single parent in social Ministers and their staff using their time housing who proudly sends their child to consider these things on a case-by- off to university and when the student case basis sometimes with positive returns home to work for the summer to outcomes, but often with unnecessary make money to go back to school, they stress to everyone concerned. Thank land a job and mom’s rent goes up to you, Mr. Speaker. reflect that temporary increase in household income and then mom has MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mrs. no choice but to get their son or Groenewegen. Member for Weledeh, daughter to take those needed earnings Mr. Bromley. to contribute to pay for the increased MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON rent. Welcome home, Mr. Speaker. SHORTAGE OF LONG-TERM Then there’s the income support client CARE with a disability who gets financial FACILITIES FOR SENIORS support and contributes to the expense MR. BROMLEY: Mr. Speaker, for some of the family that cares for them. The time many have warned that the crisis of disabled client gets a GIC cheque and too few available beds at the Aven fails to disclose it, interrupting the Centre here in Yellowknife is coming benefit that they received. Those same fast. I rise yet again to remind us all that benefits that help their family support this catastrophe is not only looming, it’s them in their private accommodation, October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 12 here. We must address the shortfall July 8, 2015. Annette immediately found promptly. herself alone and in urgent need of care. The problem has been studied to death While she currently has respite until by all concerned, who say with one October, she is sixth on the waiting list voice, “We need more beds.” With a 200 for placement in long-term care. She percent growth in Yellowknife seniors remains scared, worried and confused, over the next 16 years and a 125 and is seeking safety and comfort in the percent increase across the NWT, we community of seniors for the last of her need several hundred new beds years. territory-wide. Yet, time is passing with Annette Lemay is the face of the seniors little apparent progress. this government is failing. As lifelong We still do not have a single palliative founders and pillars of our society today, care facility in the NWT. Avens is in she and our many elders like her need of major renovations and the throughout the Northwest Territories waiting list grows longer. Our state of deserve better. In Yellowknife, with half preparedness to serve our elders in of our territorial population served by a need of beds is deplorable. facility with a meagre 29 beds needing To humanize this situation, let’s look at mid-life retrofit, our seniors’ plight is well one real life example of the many, to known and has been obvious for some help imagine the human toll this neglect time. is exacting. Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent Annette Lemay, 93, moved to to conclude my statement. Mahsi. Yellowknife in 1951 to marry Aurel ---Unanimous consent granted Lemay. Together they lived in their small MR. BROMLEY: As I was saying, in house, which they moved from the Yellowknife, with half of our territorial Negus mine site, until Aurel passed population served by a facility with a away at 95 last July. Aurel retired in meagre 29 beds needing mid-life retrofit, 1983 and he and Annette were our seniors’ plight is well known and has determined to remain in Yellowknife. been obvious for some time. How can They had no children and no blood we still be waiting for action? relations in the NWT, but Yellowknife has always been their home and their We have the responsibility and the family. They were only able to make power. So I say, colleagues, Minister, living independently work because they executive, our Cabinet, out of respect were together, with their respective for our elders like Annette, let’s get it abilities in cooking, mobility, done. Mahsi. corresponding and advocating care MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. complementing each other. Bromley. Member for Mackenzie Delta, They knew that the day would come Mr. Blake. when one of them would go, leaving the MEMBER'S STATEMENT ON other needing comprehensive care, so MACKENZIE DELTA ELDERS an application was made in 2013 to CARE FACILITIES place Annette on the waiting list for long-term care. Sadly, that day came on MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My statement today is focusing on October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 13 elders’ care and the need for elders’ hardworking people out there. It’s a housing. I’d like to mention that on great industry, it’s a renewable industry, September 14, 2015, I was in Aklavik for and it’s one that we haven’t seen the full the Gwich’in Annual Assembly. At this capacity of. We know we’re not even time we welcomed and celebrated the over half our quota that we can catch on opening of the new Joe Greenland a productive renewable basis. Centre. This building will indeed house We’ve made some progress. We now many elders and will have positive have a business plan in place for those feedback from residents of Aklavik. fishermen through ITI. We know that This past summer the construction of a we’ve gotten some capital money to do new elders home in Fort McPherson a fish plant. We know this spring the was halted due to problems that were Department of ITI insisted on giving a occurring during building of the pilings. subsidy, and the fishermen have This is very important to the elders of responded over the summer. Over the Fort McPherson, for the completion of summer we’re seeing anywhere from a this building. A lot of elders look forward 30 percent to 40 percent increase in to a new residence and a place to production. We’re seeing just about a gather and call home. million pounds in production if those numbers work out correctly. As we speak on the elders home in Fort McPherson, the location was another I also forgot to mention the fact that we issue for some middle-aged and current have a new logo, we have a new elders. The majority of the people would marketing plan, and we’re going like to see the location moved to a forward. We’re pushing this project scenic and quiet neighbourhood. For forward. The fishermen need dredging, example, a place down along the Peel as well, but that project is not moving River banks, close to the church and forward anytime soon, but the rest of the walking distance to offices and the store project is moving forward. and also a great view of our Richardson Some of the questions I’m going to have Mountains. today are for the Minister of ITI. Where I will have questions for the Minister we have, again, a roadblock, the federal later today. government, the Conservative federal government right now, and hopefully, MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Blake. we’ll see what all our candidates have to The Member for Hay River North, Mr. say about this over the next little while Bouchard. where we’re going to go with the Hay River fish plant. We have $1.5 million MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON allocated. We’re looking for federal GREAT SLAVE LAKE FISHERY assistance to help us complete the MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. project. We need assistance. This is a Speaker. Today I rise on one of my great renewable resource. We need to favourite topics, Great Slave Lake fish. capitalize on it. Over the last four years, I’ve made MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. many Member’s statements on Great Bouchard. The Member for Frame Lake, Slave Lake fish. We know it’s a great Ms. Bisaro. product. We know there are a lot of October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 14

MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON At the risk of being repetitive, I want to ESTABLISHING OF NWT list some of the many reasons why the OMBUDSMAN OFFICE NWT needs an ombudsman office: MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.  The office is an avenue of last resort Later today I will table a draft act to for the public, one that is impartial, establish an office of the ombudsman. free and accessible. You and all Members will know that I  It’s an avenue of last resort for have been pursuing the issue since I landlord tenant issues that are was first elected eight years ago. It’s not outside the jurisdiction of the rental a new issue by any means. MLAs have officer. been talking about establishing an ombudsman office since 1992, five  It’s an avenue of last resort for Assemblies ago. The general public has housing or income support issues been looking for such an office long where an appeal has been denied. before that.  It’s an avenue of last resort for There have been numerous motions administrative decisions by officials in passed in this House recommending the hospitals and other medical facilities. establishment of an ombudsman office.  It’s an avenue of last resort for The Standing Committee on residents to ensure fairness in the Government Operations was mandated delivery of government services and by the House to review the question. programs. Their very thorough and comprehensive At the appropriate time, I will table this report recognized the need in the NWT draft legislation. My fervent hope is that and recommended establishing an the 18th Assembly will make the passage office. That was over a year ago now, of an ombudsman act one of their yet we still have no action by this priorities and that an ombudsman act is government to develop legislation to one of the first priorities that they can establish an ombudsman act. check off the to-do list as completed. Too expensive, Cabinet says. Too time MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. consuming to write the legislation, they Bisaro. The Member for Sahtu, Mr. said. Well, that second argument has Yakeleya. been quashed. With the help of our very capable Legislative Assembly research MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON staff, I have a draft ombudsman act all SAHTU CHILD CARE ready to go. It may not be perfect. It may REQUIREMENTS not reflect precisely how an NWT ombudsman office would operate, but MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. the groundwork has been done. The Speaker. Hearing Mr. Bouchard’s document can be handed to the Justice Member’s statement sure makes me department legislative drafters for happy. language adjustment and final tweaking. During my Sahtu community tours, I It can be, with political will, presented for found there is a population of young the first reading during the winter 2016 people we have listened to and spoken sitting of the 18th Legislative Assembly. to and these young people want to work. There’s a huge population of my young October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 15 people in the Sahtu who want to work. MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON We do not want to rely on government NWT HOUSING CORPORATION assistance and income support over and REPAIR over and over. We want to work. We AND RENOVATION PROGRAMS finished school, we’ve gone to post- MR. MENICOCHE: Mahsi cho, Mr. secondary, we did the trades training Speaker. Today I wanted to talk about and we want to work. We want to make the repair and renovation programs a contribution to our family. We want to offered by the NWT Housing buy things for our family, for our Corporation. Over the past few years, children, take vacations. We do not like I’ve had elders, seniors on pension and getting the income support system. So those with disabilities contacting me that when they told me that, I ask them what part of the programming that the are some of the barriers, and one of the Housing Corporation offers comes with barriers they have said is that we do not a co-pay portion and the minimum co- have a child care centre in Norman pay portion is about $500. It’s very, very Wells or in Colville Lake. That stops us. difficult for those on pension and low We either have to rely on babysitters in income to even come up with that type the community, and sometimes they’re of co-pay portion. not very reliable, or we have to stay at home. They pay a price either way. As an example, in Wrigley there was an They said, “If we had a child care centre elder who needs their water tank where we can leave our children to be replaced. Typically in Yellowknife it brought up in a safe environment, it would be about $1,500, but with the would go a long way.” Some of these labour involved it adds up to about are single parents who want to go into $5,000 in Wrigley alone and the co-pay the workforce or go to school. portion is about $1,200. They’re living in a remote community with a high cost of Our young people are hungry to work, living and they cannot make this co-pay are hungry to go to school and hungry to portion. It is actually a burden on them make a living. They do not like to sit idle. and, as well, anybody with disabilities. They want to get off their keisters and go to work. It’s a simple plain fact for Just perusing the NWT Housing them. Corporation website, they say co-pay may be required, depending on I’ll ask questions to the Minister of household income, but the program Education, Culture and Employment that’s being offered is co-pay is why we need daycare centres in necessary. So that’s a far cry from the Norman Wells and Colville Lake. Thank guidelines that are listed on our website. you. At the appropriate time I will be asking MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. the Minister responsible for the NWT Yakeleya. The Member for Nahendeh, Housing Corporation about how do we Mr. Menicoche. best serve our seniors and our elders and those with disabilities in accessing our NWT Housing Corporation home and repair program. Mahsi cho. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 16

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. 2000 to 2009 the GNWT ended up with Menicoche. The Member for Range a true cash surplus and did not require Lake, Mr. Dolynny. short-term debt. This short-term debt has generally increased in 2009 and has MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON become significant during the life of this GNWT DEBT AND BORROWING current administration. Hence, many will CAPACITY remember the increases we saw as MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. short-term borrowing legislation in the Speaker. In keeping with my theme of 17th Legislative Assembly going from evaluating the McLeod government and $175 million to $275 million and the $25 with reference to my report of million additional approved last year for September 29, 2015, today I will talk a grand total today of $300 million for about GNWT debt and our borrowing short-term borrowing. capacity, our inability to borrow due to So what did this translate? Rising debt federally imposed debt limit restricting and softening of static of our GDP in progressive capital investment from combination has caused the GNWT 2000 to 2007 thus leading to the debt to rise as a percentage of GDP. territorial infrastructure deficit we see Couple this with our government’s poor today. response to economic conditions, our Arguably, this has curtailed efforts to infrastructure deficit or our meager diversify the NWT economy and tied the revenue outlet, the percentage of total territory to an intensely cyclical resource debt to GDP will no doubt rise with development sector. As a result, it is the larger capital projects looming in the 16th and 17th Legislative Assemblies that shadows. have successfully pressured Canada to Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent raise the debt limit. to conclude my statement. My goal today is to evaluate the process ---Unanimous consent granted we see before us. Have we been MR. DOLYNNY: So, although the balanced in our approach or have we GNWT basks in the glory of a defined gone too far and put the taxpayers at measure such as an Aa1 Moody credit risk? rating for its debt management and Trends in debt and borrowing capacity current debt load, the real landscape are a good measure of fiscal paints a much bleaker forecast than performance. From 2007 to now, the Moody’s can safely measure. total GNWT debt has risen dramatically Therefore, Mr. Speaker, we must be by over 392 percent. Large capital cautious moving forward. This was projects such as the Deh Cho Bridge invariably echoed yesterday by the and the Mackenzie Valley Fibre Optic Finance Minister in his fiscal update. It is Link are major contributors to this for these reasons of ignoring the growth. warning bells that my assessment of the So, although the new federally imposed McLeod government in dealing with debt limit has recently increased to $1.3 and borrowing management will only billion, as a general observation, as our muster a C grade. Mahsi cho, Mr. total debt has grown, our borrowing Speaker. capacity has shrunk. Interestingly, from October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 17

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. period, there were over 600 individuals Dolynny. Member for Inuvik Boot Lake, working on the project. About 75 percent Mr. Moses. of those were from the Inuvik region and there was also employment from other MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON territorial communities as well. From INUVIK-TUKTOYAKTUK those, about 120 people benefitted from HIGHWAY PROJECT training opportunities, and this is going MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. to help when we look at other projects One practice of this government every such as the Mackenzie Valley Highway. year is that we approve infrastructure If any other mine or oil and gas budgets. When we approve these companies want to start doing some infrastructure budgets, one thing we work, we’re going to have people who have to understand is we are not are trained to take some of those jobs approving these budgets but creating as well. jobs throughout the North, we are About 70 people were trained on the helping build skills and creating simulator for rock trucks and excavator opportunities for our residents, our local training, which is also needed, and residents and people in the small about 40 people were trained in class 1 communities. and class 3 drivers’ licences with One of those projects that was recently airbrakes. All those are going to help us approved and brought to attention – in the future when we look at the even in the media and in this House Mackenzie Valley Project and other over the last few weeks – is the Inuvik- infrastructure in the Tlicho or towards Tuk Highway. When this government Nunavut. approves big infrastructure projects or I do seek unanimous consent to any other project, one thing we need to conclude my Member’s statement. understand, as legislators as well as ---Unanimous consent granted contractors and people who are putting these bids in, is that claims are a normal MR. MOSES: Just to finish, we can’t part of the construction contracts and forget about the other future benefits that the government and the department and investment potential that the Inuvik- involved try to resolve these as quickly Tuk Highway is going to produce when as possible. Earlier in the week and in we look at our offshore drilling, tourism the media it was talked about that this and reduced cost of living for the project needs to be halted and stopped communities toward Tuktoyaktuk and until further review takes place. Mr. Inuvik. Speaker, no, that can’t happen. Not only that, from a personal level, You heard today from some of my when you walk around Inuvik and you colleagues that we need jobs in the see the young guys and the young girls communities. We have people who are working, the family providers, the men hungry to get off their butts and get to who go and work long hours to provide work. This is exactly what this job is for their families in Tuk and Inuvik and doing with the Inuvik-Tuk Highway. how that benefits them, it’s great to see people who are finally working, a We just have to look at some of the decreased number of people on income highlights. At its peak construction October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 18 assistance, all these benefits. I know in Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the the summertime work is slow. I’ve seen community on the dedication to the the training opportunities that have been project and in their achievement and provided to some of these people who hope for many exciting events at the are working on this project going down new community hall in the years to south and getting further training, so come. Mahsi cho. they get higher level jobs in the project. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Nadli. With that said, Mr. Speaker, I do support Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Beaulieu. the continued work for the Inuvik-Tuk Highway and all the benefits it presents. MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON Thank you, Mr. Speaker. TU NEDHE HIGH SCHOOL MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Moses. GRADUATES Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Nadli. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. This summer I had an MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON opportunity to attend the graduation for KAKISA COMMUNITY HALL Liidlii Kue School as usual. This year GRAND OPENING Sydney Bailey, Rayleen Norn, Rylie MR. NADLI: Mahsi, Mr. Speaker. Today Chapman and Teagan Laroque I have some great news to share about graduated. The total number of students the community of Kakisa. After more graduating since graduations events than five years, with special planning started in Fort Resolution in 2000 is 53 and construction, Kakisa is ready to host students. Every year I attend graduation the grand opening of their new and one year we had nine graduates community hall. and we’ve also had single graduates in Liidlii Kue School. So it’s gone very well. The new hall is built alongside the old Deh Cho Assembly arbour. It was a In springtime I went to an event in bustling hub of community activity year Lutselk’e where we also had a round, ready to host sports and games, graduation. For the first time ever in the feasts and other community gatherings, history of Lutselk’e, they had two with space left for storage and meetings. students, Tristin Lockhart and Lucas Enzoe, who graduated from Grade 12. The old community hall quickly filled to capacity, but the new hall will have more I just want to pass on congratulations than enough room for all residents, here in the House to those students in family and friends. Fort Resolution going all the way back to 2000. Many of those students are I know the residents of Kakisa have working in Fort Resolution and many of been eager to have a place to gather. them have jobs outside. There are a When Rowe’s Construction completed good many of them that have gone on to the last of their work, the community will further education and I think the same have a place. The opening has been st thing will happen with Tristin Lockhart discussed for October 1 , but I’ve been and Lucas Enzoe in Lutselk’e. They are told this has been rescheduled possibly the first to do it and I know there are for mid-October to make sure everyone going to be graduates. We will probably in the community can attend. see some graduates out of Lutselk’e every year from now on. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 19

It’s a big milestone for the community. happened in our community. I wanted to Just about everyone from the mention this in the House. We have community came out to celebrate Tristin families and friends in the Tlicho and Lucas. The Fort Resolution community who are all watching and graduation is usually a big event. This listening to us. I am sure we are praying year we had 200 people show up. That’s for the families. Although we are here over 40 percent of the population, so today, we will support the families, that’s a very big event. remember them and have a prayer for I thought I’d like to stand up today and them. Mahsi. congratulate all those students. Thank MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. you, Mr. Speaker. Lafferty. Item 4, returns to oral MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. questions. Item 5, recognition of visitors Beaulieu. Member for Tlicho, Mr. in the gallery. Mrs. Groenewegen. Lafferty. 5) Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

MEMBER’S STATEMENT ON MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, CONDOLENCES TO TLICHO Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize FAMILIES two Pages from Hay River South who ON RECENT PASSING have been working in the Chamber for TRAGEDIES us all week. They are two fine HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Mahsi, gentlemen, Ethan Schofield and Mr. Speaker. [Translation] Today I Matthew Lafferty. Say hello to them if would like to acknowledge what you get a chance to. Thank you. happened in our community. We just MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mrs. lost two of our citizens in the Tlicho Groenewegen. Mr. McLeod. region. I know there’s a lot of people in our community who are suffering right HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, now. We all know each other. Even Mr. Speaker. I would like to recognize a when we’re here, we are remembering constituent of Inuvik Twin Lakes and them and we want to have prayers in president of the Nihtat Gwich’in Council, our hearts for their parents and their Mr. Jozef Carnogursky. Welcome to the families. Chamber. We have to look at how we can resolve MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. this. We have to support them and try to McLeod. Mr. Moses. help the community in the situation they MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. are in because of what has happened I, too, would like to recognize Mr. Jozef and what has occurred in our Carnogursky, president of Nihtat community. I know that next week we Gwich’in Council, a long-time friend and will be having a funeral service for the I really appreciate the work he’s done people and the communities. We have for the Gwich’in people up in Inuvik and to support them with prayers. Prayers the region and being a strong advocate go a long way and are a big help for the for the people up in that region. families. Welcome, Jozef. I hope you enjoy the I just wanted to acknowledge the fact proceedings. Thank you. that we have a terrible situation that October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 20

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Moses. Item 6, acknowledgements. Item 7, oral Mr. Yakeleya. questions. Mr. Bromley. MR. YAKELEYA: Mr. Speaker, I would 6) Oral Questions also like to recognize the elder from Deline First Nation government, Mr. QUESTION 898-17(5): Andrew John Kenny. Andrew John COMPREHENSIVE GNWT Kenny mentioned to me yesterday, he AGRICULTURE POLICY said he thoroughly enjoys the Assembly, listening to the people going back and MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. forth. “It’s a real good meeting you guys Speaker. My questions are for Minister are having,” he said. “Too bad I didn’t Ramsay today. I scanned the list of get in there.” But he’s watching, so I documents to be tabled this session, but have to watch the election close. Thank I was disappointed not to see the you. promised Agriculture Strategy listed. We haven’t even had a whiff of a draft, in MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. spite of it being promised by the end of Yakeleya. Mr. Ramsay. this summer, long past. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. This strategy, an intended action plan, Speaker. I want to recognize all the has been called for by the citizens of the work of the Pages we have working for Northwest Territories for decades. With us here who have been working this only days effectively left to deal with session. We have a Page from Kam this, can the Minister tell me when we Lake, Ms. Hayley Barry. I appreciate all can expect to see a draft of this long- her hard work. I also want to recognize awaited strategy? Mahsi. a long-time friend and former chief of the community of Deline, Andrew John MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Kenny, welcome to the House, as well Bromley. Minister Ramsay. as Mr. Carnogursky. Good to see you HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. here today. Speaker. We’ve had some great forward MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. momentum when it comes to agriculture Ramsay. Mr. Hawkins. here In the Northwest Territories. We’ve advanced the sector tremendously. We MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. have a What We Heard document from Speaker. Like my colleagues, I wish to consultations we’ve had with the public recognize all the Pages, most and stakeholders around the territory. particularly the Pages from Mildred Hall We will be tabling that report in the who are representing us today. House during this sitting. Thank you. Specifically I would like to recognize a constituent. I believe her name is Genzi MR. BROMLEY: That’s good news. In Zhang. Thank you for your work. I am the absence of a logical strategy, people glad to have all Pages here. It’s a great have been pursing agriculture on their opportunity for all. Thank you. own, wrestling with volatile and inconsistent support and often barriers MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. from this government. They have a lot of Hawkins. I would like to welcome experience to share and they are hoping everybody here in the public gallery. the government will actually hear them. Thank you for taking in the proceedings. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 21

What consultative process is the Agriculture Strategy for the Northwest Minister engaged in or was the Minister Territories. engaged in to hear from the people This is too important to be rushed regarding a comprehensive NWT through. We are taking our time. We are agricultural policy? Mahsi. listening to people and stakeholders HON. DAVID RAMSAY: We had a around the Northwest Territories to tremendous amount of positive ensure that we get this right because it feedback from around the Northwest is such a valuable component to our Territories. In talking with stakeholders, economic well-being as we move this people were involved in the agricultural territory forward. Thank you. sector here in the NWT. We believe we MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. had a consultative approach. As I said, Ramsay. Final, short supplementary, we will be tabling the What We Heard Mr. Bromley. report in the House probably sometime next week. The Member can see for MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. himself who we talked to and what we Speaker. Again amazing context here are going to focus on. Thank you. between what’s real now on the ground and able to give us dividends versus the MR. BROMLEY: Thanks to the Minister. theoretical fossil fuel pursuit that gives Agricultural policy is important to the us nothing. Given the need to diversify future of sustainable local economies our economies and lessen reliance on and food security for the communities in boom and bust industries like that, our the North. If our people are to achieve need for local sustainable jobs and food the optimum level of self-sufficiency, the security, when will such a policy be in Economic Strategy must contain a place? Mahsi. comprehensive agricultural policy. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: I don’t have a Is this promised agricultural policy a crystal ball. I’m not sure who’s going to priority for this government given we are be back and who’s going to be in which just hearing What We Heard and not a position, but it’s safe to say, early in the policy or is this another case of this life of the next government the government paying lip service to the Agriculture Strategy will be put forward sustainable localized economic to the 18th Legislative Assembly and development communities require while debated by Members of that pursuing fossil fuel which should remain government. Thank you. in the ground, for example? Mahsi. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: I agree with the Ramsay. Member for Sahtu, Mr. Member that this is a very important Yakeleya. sector of our economy. I do take issue with some of the Member’s overtures QUESTION 899-17(5): that we are just paying lip service and CHILD CARE SERVICES that we are taking our time. Mr. IN THE SAHTU REGION Speaker, this is important to us. As I MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. mentioned, we are going to come Speaker. In my Member’s statement I forward with the What We Heard report. talked about grandparents, single We initially formed the basis of a draft parents and people who want to go to October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 22 work. One of the issues in Norman funding so that the daycare centres can Wells and Colville Lake, ironically be opened and these young people can Norman Wells is an oil-driven economy go to work and go to school. Thank you, and Colville Lake is a resource economy Mr. Speaker. based on harvesting and trapping. HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: In 2015, What can this government do to help obviously these are discussions we’ve young people with a daycare centre? been having with Norman Wells to How can we get those doors open? develop programs. My staff are working Thank you. with community members from the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Sahtu region, more particularly in Yakeleya. Minister of Education, Norman Wells, to open a licenced early Culture and Employment, Mr. Lafferty. childhood program within the Sahtu region as well. HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Mahsi, Mr. Speaker, We do have daycare Just last month the Norman Wells Land facilities across the Northwest Corporation met with ECE and is Territories. I know we need to improve considering establishing a daycare. certain areas. We have been working in Those are discussions we’ve been the Member’s riding. We currently have having and we are making progress in three licenced early childhood programs that respect, Mr. Speaker. Mahsi. in the Sahtu region. Obviously, MR. YAKELEYA: I do want to thank Members are requesting additions to the staff in Norman Wells and the that as well. willingness of the Norman Wells Land Fort Good Hope has a daycare; Tulita, Corporation to initiate this meeting with child development; and Deline has a the Education, Culture and Employment pre-school. These are some of the department. I appreciate that, Mr. areas where we have established early Speaker. I want to ask now if the childhood centres. We continue to Minister would redirect his focus and improve in those areas. attention to Colville Lake where they also need a daycare centre. There are My staff, my department is more than lots of young families there also willing willing to meet with leadership and to look at this initiative. stakeholders to develop these centres because we do have funding available. Will the Minister take a leap of faith and Those are some of the discussions we ask his staff to go to Colville Lake and are currently having. Mahsi. look at ways they can bring solutions to establish a daycare centre for young MR. YAKELEYA: The Minister talked parents, young people in Colville Lake about the daycare centres and I before the writ is dropped? appreciate the ones in Fort Good Hope, Tulita and Deline. I want to focus on HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: This Norman Wells and Colville Lake. If the particular issue is not new to my funding is there, I want to ask the department. My department has been Minister if he can give me a commitment working very closely with the community that prior to the writ being dropped that and has provided funding over the past his staff will initiate meetings in Colville several years with respect to the Lake and Norman Wells to act on this summer preschool programming. Just October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 23 recently Colville Lake residents have Norman Wells, the corporation that has expressed an interest in having licenced shown interest, and we want to move daycare programming, so at this point forward on that. So, we’re doing my department is working with Colville everything we can as a department. We to identify suitable space availability in need to push that forward as best of our the community. So, we’re doing ability with our parties involved. Mahsi. everything we can to push that forward MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. and I’m hoping we’ll see some progress Lafferty. Member for Hay River South, in expeditious timing. Mahsi, Mr. Mrs. Groenewegen. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. QUESTION 900-17(5): Lafferty. Final, short supplementary, Mr. DISCLOSURE OF PRIVATE Yakeleya. HEALTH CARE INFORMATION MR. YAKELEYA: Thank you, Mr. TO APPROVED CONTACTS Speaker. In the Northwest Territories MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, there are eight health centres without Mr. Speaker. The question I have today full-time nurses. That’s a fact. Another is for the Minister of Health and Social fact: there are 11 communities without Services, and it may seem like a small full-time RCMP members in that issue, but it’s a very important issue community. There are eight daycare when a family is in crisis and a loved centres that are not operating in the one is in the care of a health care communities in the Northwest facility. Territories. I’m just pointing out two in So, I’d like to ask the Minister of Health my region, Colville Lake and Norman and Social Services if he is aware of a Wells. policy that would guide a health care I want to ask the Minister of Education, professional or a person in Culture and Employment, seeing that administration when answering an we have two, can the Minister instruct inquiry about the condition of a patient. the staff to work tirelessly to ensure that Let me give you an example. I recently nobody else in Colville Lake has their had a constituent who was in the doors open for daycare centre prior to hospital who was nearing end of life, let’s give a time date of Christmas, so and her son called from another the parents in those two communities jurisdiction to inquire about his mother’s can have a Christmas present? condition. When the person speaking on HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: the phone checked the list – which I Obviously, we would like to see a child wasn’t aware there was such a thing – development centre established in those this individual’s name was not on the two respective communities. My list, so they were notified, I’m sorry, your department, again, is working very name is not on the approved list of closely with the community to have that people we can discuss your mother’s established and ready to go. So, we’re condition with. working with community leadership to I’m bringing this up today because I make that happen and it’s just a matter know it seems like a small thing that I of finding that suitable space in Colville could just as easily ask you personally, Lake and also working very closely with but I want other people to be aware of it, October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 24 too, who may be listening. If people are admitting or people who are in required to have a list of approved administration on the front desk of a contacts when they are a patient in the health care facility to advise a patient or hospital, it is very important for them to a patient’s family that this list needs to know that, because, like I say, the family be articulated and held by the people could be in great strife or stress. who might be in a position to give out I’d like to ask the Minister, is he aware information on that patient’s condition? of the policy of the health care facilities HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Prior to the with respect to providing information to actual implementation and the go-live people calling to inquire about family date of the Health Information Act, and members. Thank you. recognizing that we have eight health MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mrs. authorities here in the Northwest Groenewegen. Minister of Health, Mr. Territories who have all of their own Abernethy. operational procedures and protocols within the institutions, I can’t say for sure HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, that there was one policy for all Mr. Speaker. In the health care system, authorities. privacy and privacy rights is an incredibly important factor in providing Moving forward with the system services, and effective today we have transformation, we will be able to have the Health Information Act that actually consistent standards that are clearly guides our ability to share information. It articulated and informed by the Health indicates when we can share the Information Act moving forward. information and also indicates when we MRS. GROENEWEGEN: I would can’t share information. Prior to today further just like to ask the Minister, then, we were bound by ATIPP. if he would ensure that there is So, when it comes to health privacy and consistency across the health those types of concerns, I would authorities going forward and some strongly encourage you and I would mechanism that would remind patients strongly encourage all Members to or families of the need that if they want make sure that when individuals are in the information to be made available the health care system, they are very that they have to grant that authority or clear and articulate who can and can’t that approval in some form, maybe receive information, and who can be told attached to the admission form, or some that somebody is in a particular facility. way, so that we don’t end up in the But if we don’t have that information, we situation where someone is wanting to can’t and we won’t share people’s find out about something, which they personal information. So, as of today’s rightfully probably should know and their Health Information Act, it went live parent or their loved one may want them today, prior to that it was ATIPP. Thank to know. you. Can we make sure that there is a formal MRS. GROENEWEGEN: For the system-wide process attached to this so benefit of patients and patient’s families, that people are fully aware of it? then, is there a protocol or any HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: It’s a great requirement on the part of people in idea and I will certainly share that October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 25 information with the department and ask QUESTION 901-17(5): them to ensure that we have MACKENZIE DELTA ELDERS mechanisms to ensure that our patients FACILITIES are adequately informed about their MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. privacy rights and their information In follow-up to my Member’s statement, rights, and to encourage them to include I have two questions for the Minister of people who should be involved or be Housing. As the Minister recalls from his aware of their files, particularly family. visits to the community of Aklavik, when This will be a lot easier moving forward we had the old Joe Greenland Centre with one system as opposed to multiple we’d have a place set out in front, a systems, and this is the type of small deck where elders usually sat, conversation I know that the whether it was during the spring, professional staff that we have working summer, fall. With this new facility, a on amalgamation have been having. great facility, as I mentioned, but one MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. thing, I’m not sure if it was due to our Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, budget, but they didn’t build much of a Mrs. Groenewegen. deck on each side of the Joe Greenland Centre. MRS. GROENEWEGEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could that also include I’d like to ask the Minister, will the provision for a patient to designate department build a deck on each side of someone other than themselves as a the Joe Greenland Centre where elders decision-maker to work with the health can gather? care providers to make sure that list is MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Blake. comprehensive? So if the patients The Minister of Housing, Mr. McLeod. themselves are not capable of providing HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, that information, if they could be asked Mr. Speaker. It is a great facility in to confirm a designated decision-maker Aklavik and I was glad to be part of the who could provide that list for the opening. We still have a bit of work to do patient? in the front of the building. We have HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: I know that some landscaping and that to do. I think with the new proposed Mental Health that’s going to be taken care of next Act we actually have that provision in summer, I believe. I’m not sure about the legislation to designate an the deck. I would have to check to see if alternative decision-maker. As far as there is an opportunity in the future to patients not covered under the Mental put a larger deck on there. Health Act or the future Mental Health MR. BLAKE: I thank the Minister. My Act, I’m not actually sure, but I will check next questions are on the new facility in and I will get back to the Member. Fort McPherson. I’d like to ask the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Minister, how was the location of the Abernethy. The Member for Mackenzie elders home in Fort McPherson Delta, Mr. Blake. selected? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Mr. Speaker, we had some land that was available. I believe we did some October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 26 consultation with the community. There MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. were no issues raised at the time, so we McLeod. Member for Frame Lake, Ms. determined the location of the new Bisaro. seniors centre. MR. BLAKE: My next question is: Why QUESTION 902-17(5): was the project on hold this summer for DRAFT CONSERVATION PLAN over a month? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Mr. My questions today are addressed to Speaker, I’ll have to follow up on that. I the Minister of Environment and Natural understand there may have been some Resources. About I think three weeks issues there. I’m not quite sure what the ago now, ENR had put out a draft issues were, but I will follow up and Conservation Plan and it was done in share with the Member some of the conjunction… information that I receive. Thank you, ---Interjection Mr. Speaker. MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. It was done in conjunction with the McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Protected Areas Strategy, which has Blake. been in the process, in development MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. since 1999, so that’s a very long As I drove by the location, I noticed process. It’s been many years of work there hasn’t really been very much work and also many partners involved in the done there. There are no supplies on Protected Areas Strategy. I’d like to ask the site that are ready to start building. the Minister some questions about this draft Conservation Plan which came out, I’d like to ask the Minister, will the what some of the changes are, what it is Minister direct his department to work intending for our territory, in terms of with the elders in the community to conservation. select a location for the new elders facility? Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to know first of all from the Minister, I know that we have lands right HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: The piles now which currently prohibit any and all are already in. We did some forms of industrial development. I’d like consultation with the community. We to know from the Minister if he can give didn’t get any feedback, so we what percentage of our total lands area determined that that would be the are currently prohibited from location. development. Thank you. As far as the number of piles go, again, I MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. will ask for an update and find out where Bisaro. Minister of Environment and we’re at with that. But it will be awfully Natural Resources, Mr. Miltenberger. expensive now to change the location. They’d have to wait a little longer for HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: their facility. But I will get all the Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can give the information and share it with the Member a number for all the land that is Member for Mackenzie Delta. current and proposed, including Thaidene Nene and areas that have been worked on since 1999, keeping in October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 27 mind that the proposed areas in all going to allow some development. I’m probability will end up shrinking as the wondering if the Minister could try to final footprint is determined, but that advise me and the public what’s going percentage is 14 percent of the land to be allowed in this other percentage. I mass. Thank you. think it’s 20 percent, is what I’m advised, MS. BISARO: Thanks to the Minister. I another 20 percent that is going to allow need to ask the Minister, there was a development. press release from the NWT and What sort of developments or lack of Nunavut Chamber of Mines just developments will be allowed? What yesterday, actually. It states: “According kind of conservation are we imposing on to the mine recorder’s office, 32 percent this other 20 percent of our lands? of the NWT is off limits to staking and Thank you. exploration. That figure includes lands HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Mr. for parks, interim land claim withdrawals Speaker, what is permanent will depend and protected areas.” on the circumstances of the particular Can the Minister explain the difference area. It has to be appropriate, between the 32 percent that the depending on what kind of conservation Chamber of Mines is talking about and designation there is outside of the the 14 percent that he just quoted? protected area designation. But it does Thank you. include all the areas on the map. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Mr. The Member stated, for example, 1999 Speaker, the core protected or protected Protected Areas Strategy. All the land areas are those areas that would be that’s on that map that is designated to permanently withdrawn from industrial be protected is all the land that is commercial development, like the projected to have any kind of proposed Thaidene Nene area for the conservation designation far into the federal and territorial footprints of future. There’s no new land on there. Nahanni Park, part of Wood Buffalo There’s land that’s been identified now that’s there, Edaezhe and the Ramparts since 1999. Some of it is yet to be and those types of things. That number determined, the final designation, but we all in is at 14 percent. know some, like the Ramparts or The other lands where there’s Edhzhie, the request is that there be a conservation designation, we have a park there, a protected area. The others Parks Act, for example, that has six will have a range of different kinds of levels of park. Five of those levels of designations. It could be a cultural area; park permit activity, commercial activity, it could be a wildlife area; it could be just permanent activity, so could include an area of some significance that has industrial development. That would some designation. If there is some account for the relating percentages. activity that’s found within that area, Thank you. then we will collectively look at what it is and how does it fit, what kind of MS. BISARO: Thanks again to the community support there is, but the door Minister. So, we’re talking 14 percent would be open to have that kind of that is going to be totally prohibited, but discussion. Unlike Nahanni National there’s another percentage which is Park or Edaezhe, once it’s fully October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 28 withdrawn, or the Thaidene Nene This document is basically post- footprint area. devolution. The Northwest Territories I would also point out, as we talk about has taken over the Protected Areas this land, we have a very, very Strategy and has rebranded it and significant piece of land – 44,000 square packaged it and is putting is out as a kilometres of land – that has been under Northern Conservation Action Plan. interim protection for decades, tied up in There is a process that we’re going to land claims. As we commit ourselves to continue on with from the Protected concluding land claims, when we do that Areas Strategy, and has been since will free up very, very high potential 1999, a working group that includes areas for potential development that representatives from all the different could be contemplated by Aboriginal sectors of the economy and the territory, governments, industry and the territorial industry and business and communities, government. Thank you. environmental groups, that type of thing that are part of the process and will MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. continue to be part of that process as Miltenberger. Final, short we move forward to provide oversight supplementary, Ms. Bisaro. and work on the various areas that have MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. been designated, some of them for I want to thank the Minister, as well, for literally decades now. Thank you. his explanation. As we go forward, the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Protected Areas Strategy has been in Miltenberger. The Member for place for a very long time. As the Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche. Minister says, the areas in that Protected Areas Strategy will continue QUESTION 903-17(5): to go forward. But this draft HOUSING PROGRAM CO- Conservation Strategy I gather takes the PAYMENTS place of the Protected Areas Strategy. It’s got a new name. MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I just want to ask Who’s going to be involved in dealing some questions of the Minister with this draft Conservation Strategy as responsible for the NWT Housing we go forward? I presume there are Corporation. Earlier today I spoke in my partners. Could the Minister advise us Member’s statement about the repair who they are? Thank you. and renovation programs that are HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Mr. available to all residents of the NWT, but Speaker, we’ve put this document most particularly my concern is about forward for consultation and we’ve our seniors, those on pensions, and our extended the consultation period to, I disabled. There’s the co-pay component believe, October 19th, at which time we on the majority of our programming, and will put it in a box, basically, and we’ll in my experience I’ve seen that in the include it with the transition document small and remote communities people for consideration in the 18th Assembly, don’t have access to $500 that they’re which will include all the feedback we required to co-pay on. get. I’d like to ask the Minister responsible, has his department looked at this? Have October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 29 these concerns been raised to his goes, the greater percentage is taken by department with respect to reducing or, seniors. Thank you. if not, eliminating and taking care of our MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very seniors and those who are disabled with much. Yes, just with the co-pay this housing program? Thank you. component, I’m just wondering what MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. kind of timing does the Minister expect Menicoche. The Minister responsible for in looking at and reviewing that the Housing Corporation, Mr. McLeod. particular guideline that’s in our HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, programming currently. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. We do have the new co- HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you. pay program and a lot of folks have We will start looking at it immediately done very well with it. However, we do and the work has already begun. We do recognize the Member’s concern with recognize there are some challenges some of the challenges that are faced that the disabled and seniors are facing, with our seniors and those with those who are on fixed income, with the disabilities. So I will commit to the co-pay portion of it. So we have begun Member that we will go back and do an looking at that and we will see how soon assessment and revisit and maybe we can get that work completed. Thank make some adjustments to the seniors you. and those who are disabled, people who MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. are living on fixed incomes. Thank you. McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Mr. MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very Menicoche. much. I know that when I first began in MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very th the Assembly with the 15 Assembly, much, Mr. Speaker. I’m pleased that we did have a specific seniors or elders they’ll look at it here right away. Like I housing program which spoke to giving said in my Member’s statement, a relief for those kind of things. I’m particular case is an elder needs his wondering if the Minister is willing to water tank replaced and in that case he look at it in that perspective in identifying cannot come up with the $1,200, but it’s specific seniors or elders repair a need for that elder and his family. programs. Thank you. Water and cleanliness is one of our HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: We have a basic needs. So, I appreciate the number of programs within the NWT Minister looking at that immediately and Housing Corporation that the uptake in if he can, once again, to look at it and the programs is from the seniors review certain situations. Thank you. themselves. We have the Mobility Policy HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Yes, as I now where we work with those who committed before and I’ll commit again, have mobility issues and we have a we will have a look at it and continue to number of programs designed for try and improve our programs as we seniors. We have the Preventative have done for the last number of years Maintenance Program. So, we have a with the help of this Legislative number of programs. A couple of them Assembly. So, we will continue to try, are designed specifically for seniors and not try, we will continue to improve our those with mobility issues, and we also programs and help those seniors, those have, as far as our CARE program October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 30 with mobility issues, the disabled and all understanding of the government in those who are in need the best we can. Ottawa after that election takes place. Thank you. I can let the Member and Members MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. know that the $1.5 million we have McLeod. The Member for Hay River earmarked for the fish plant in Hay River North, Mr. Bouchard. is something we feel very strongly about. If we can’t get investment from QUESTION 904-17(5) the federal government on moving GREAT SLAVE LAKE FISHERY forward with the development of that MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. export grade fish plant, we will be Speaker. As a follow-up to my statement seeking some type of private equity, on the fishery, I’ll have questions for the private investment in that facility so it Minister of ITI. can move ahead. We can’t wait forever for the federal government. Thank you. I guess my first question will be: I know we’ve had a successful summer, but MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you. My next does the Minister have the actual question would be about that federal production numbers and some of the government influence. Have we been update on where we are with the current talking to our current MP candidates fish plant? Thank you. going forward to make sure that they know it’s on their priorities? I know I’ve MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. written a letter, but has the Minister, has Bouchard. The Minister of Industry, Cabinet made that a priority to those Tourism and Investment, Mr. Ramsay. candidates? Thank you. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: We continue Speaker. A vitalization strategy and to talk about the importance of the business plan have been developed to commercial fishery to the Northwest help ensure the longevity and the health Territories economy. It is a shadow of its of the fishery, the commercial fishery on former self. The numbers are better this Great Slave Lake. The Member year and I will commit to the Member highlighted a number of areas where the and Members of the House to get the government has worked very hard at the most recent numbers to them. The revitalization of the commercial fishery. Member cited between 30 and 40 We continue to push forward. There’s a percent increase in production. We’ve new fishing cooperative in Hay River. seen some new fishermen get out on We’ve approached the federal the lake taking part in the fishery. government on a number of occasions, both the Minister of Fisheries and As I mentioned in my previous Oceans, Ms. Shea, and also CanNor. response, we can’t wait forever for the We haven’t had any success on getting federal government. If they don’t make a a response from the federal government move and support us on moving forward on our request. with the fish plant in Hay River, there are other ways to get that investment As the Member mentioned, and others into Hay River and make this a reality. have mentioned, there’s an election Thank you. coming up soon. We will have a better October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 31

MR. BOUCHARD: My next question is: the situation in Hay River, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister committed to that Thank you. continuing? We know that increase is MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. seen and we equate it to that subsidy Ramsay. Member for Range Lake, Mr. that was provided to the fishermen this Dolynny. year. Is that a commitment that will carry on in the business plan until that fish QUESTION 905-17(5): plant is completed? Thank you. DIAGNOSTIC IMAGING ISSUE HON. DAVID RAMSAY: We’ve got a MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. number of programs that we have in Speaker. In April of this year, there was place to help fishermen on Great Slave a system upgrade to our Stanton Lake. We have a Fish Harvesters Territorial Hospital MEDI-patient system Support Program, Commercial Fish that resulted in more than 1,500 Harvesters Support Program, Fish diagnostic imaging reports not being Harvesters Expansion Program, Fish returned to the practitioner who had Harvesters New Entrance Support requested them between April 1st and Program and also some core funding August 6th of 2015. Members of this that’s available to fishermen on Great House were flagged on August 11, Slave Lake. Our intent is to see this 2015, by the Minister of Health, and I’ll funding and support carried forward so stress “that some quality assurance we can continue to move toward getting regulators and digital imaging at Stanton that export grade fish facility constructed were noticed and that some health and in operation in Hay River. Thank system patients were affected but were you. never disclosed the exact impact.” It MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. wasn’t until the following week of August Ramsay. Final, short supplementary, 18th, the Minister, through a CBC radio Mr. Bouchard. morning show, disclosed the magnitude MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. of the issue. As of this date, there has Speaker. We all know that the Hay River been no formal press release or formal harbour is important to the fishing health advisory to the public. industry. Obviously, my question is: Has My questions today are for the Minister the Minister talked to his counterpart in of Health and Social Services. Mr. Transportation as well as some of the Speaker, I think many of us are still people he has contacts with in Ottawa concerned about this situation, so can about the dredging of the Hay River? the Minister give the House and the We need this for the fishing industry of public at large a formal update and Hay River. Thank you. maybe indicate what legal risks are still HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you. I’m looming? Thank you. very well aware of the situation in the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. port of Hay River, being a former Dolynny. Mr. Abernethy. Minister of Transportation, and yes, we HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, do talk extensively about dredging. Not Mr. Speaker, and thank you to the just in Hay River, but there are other Member for bringing this to the floor of areas in the Northwest Territories that the House. This was a significant issue require dredging, and I’m fully aware of here in the Northwest Territories within October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 32 the Department of Health and Social magnitude, scope, and the residents Services and very troubling to both the have in fact been dealt with. Thank you. department and the residents of the Mr. Speaker. Northwest Territories, I’m sure. The MR. DOLYNNY: I think I had a very physicians, the practitioners here in the specific question there, so I’ll reword it Northwest Territories stood up and here. Really there isn’t anything in reviewed every one of the 1,500 files to legislation that protects the public in determine who, if anybody, was at risk, terms of an issue of this gravity, and the who got information, when they got only legislation pursuant to a public information and how they got health advisory is Section 7 and 20 of information. At the end of the day, there the Public Health Act, and unfortunately, were eight individuals who should have it is silent on a situation such as a digital got information prior to us discovering imaging mishap. this problem, and those individuals have been followed up with accordingly. So, does the Minister feel as strongly as I do, that a more formal process for I do want to take this opportunity to health alerting protocol is needed for applaud the doctors, the nurses and all grave situations, especially for such the practitioners who stood up to things as this digital imaging mishap? address this issue and to resolve it. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: I do agree MR. DOLYNNY: I appreciate the with the Member. In fact, I agree so Minister giving the opportunity to explain much that when this issue came to my the current situation. My concern today attention, I did ask for a formal external is still about the risk management and review to be done to help us determine the liability when such an issue is before how on earth we didn’t know before the House and is discovered. So, can August 6th, how the situation happened the Minister indicate, what is his and how we can, as a system, better department’s formal health advisory respond in the future to make sure that protocol, given the seriousness of such our people are informed in a timely way. a situation? Thank you. I do also want to recognize, having said HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: When it that, we still have to recognize the comes to patient safety and patient importance of the practitioners and their care, we will defer to the medical obligations under a situation like this, practice on ensuring that the situation is which is: stop the harm, work with the dealt with. At present, when situations patients, then communicate. Thank you, like this occur, the first thing that must Mr. Speaker. happen is to stop the problem from continuing, to remove all opportunities MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. for harm. That was done in this Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, particular case. The second step is to Mr. Dolynny. follow up with the individuals who may MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. have been impacted, which was also Speaker. Again I thank the Minister done in this case. At that point we would here. I just want to make one thing move forward with some notification to perfectly clear that just still doesn’t add the public, once we understand the up. So, we were reminded multiple October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 33 times by the Minister of Health that on MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. August 6, 2015, the Department of Abernethy. The Member for Inuvik Boot Health and Social Services was Lake, Mr. Moses. informed of this digital imaging technical issue, and then on the very same day, QUESTION 906-17(5): the vendor was brought in. So, I believe INUVIK AIRPORT ROAD everyone would be a little sceptic that IMPROVEMENTS nothing works that timely and this fast in MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I this government. have questions for the Minister of So, can the Minister indicate, is it Transportation today. It’s regarding our possible that this issue was known by airport road in Inuvik. Any Member that the department prior to August 6, 2015? has driven that road or has done any HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: The visits to Inuvik over the summer – it’s external review will help us identify not even recently but just throughout the exactly what was known and when. The summer – knows how bad a situation department was not aware of this that road is in. particular situation until August 6th. I I’d like to ask the Minister, what is the have had a couple briefings on this plan for paving that road or fixing that particular issue with staff from Stanton road from our airport in Inuvik to the and staff from the department and there community of Inuvik? What is our short- have been some rumblings out there. In term and long-term plan for that road? fact, I understand that there were some MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. issues between Yellowknife Health and Moses. The Minister of Transportation, Social Services and Stanton, but when Mr. Beaulieu. they reviewed those they thought those HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. were an internal issue and didn’t realize Speaker. The plan is to improve the the territorial scope of this problem until airport road with the Building Canada August 6th. At that time, and I just want Fund. We have that particular project in to correct the Member, the issue with the second bundle that has gone to the the vendor was ticketed, which means federal government. We’re anticipating they were made aware. The vendor that we will have some report back from actually didn’t get into Yellowknife until a the government, well, approval back couple days later. But as soon as the from the federal government early in issue became aware, as soon as it was 2016. understood that this was not just a communication error between two MR. MOSES: In anticipation of the authorities but this was a territorial Building Canada Plan Fund to look at issue, the vendors were immediately putting money into this project, in the ticketed. They were ticketed on the 6th. It interim what is the government doing took them a couple days to get in, but now to address this issue? It is quite they started working on the problem on drastic, and as I mentioned in that day, once they were officially Committee of the Whole yesterday, ticketed. there have been incidents where there have been accidents. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 34

I’d like to ask the Minister, in the interim rather than continue to chipseal and put what are we doing to address the money into that road over and over? severity of this road? HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Problems with HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The entire chipseal are not due to the actual project is $11 million. With that, our chipseal itself; it’s due to what’s intention is to survey – and the survey is underneath. What we intend to do with commencing now – and do some the Inuvik airport road is to rebuild crushing and producing material and sections where there are issues. strengthen the roadway. Then we intend However, we are also open to trying to replace culverts where a lot of the other products that do work better. If we culverts have sunk and collapsed. Also, find that there’s a product that works at the end, once the road is built to a better almost under any condition, then strength that we’re happy with, then we would look at that, but the plan now we’re going to be chipsealing the road. is to rebuild the road, strengthen it and We are going to wait for the Building chipseal. Canada Plan before the actual MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. construction begins. Beaulieu. Final, short supplementary, Just with our relationship with Mr. Moses. Infrastructure Canada, we found that it’s MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. better to wait and then they’re more apt I’d like to ask the Minister, what’s the to fund the whole project if we wait and timeline that we can see some start after they provide us approvals. construction and some work on the road MR. MOSES: The Minister made so that residents, visitors and tourists mention of chipsealing the highway can see that road being fixed? Is there a there, and you know and I know, coming timeline that we can start seeing the into the Legislative Assembly the road work being started? that has just been fixed over out on the HON. TOM BEAULIEU: We are highway here. They chipsealed that this optimistic that approvals will be in very summer and there are already some early 2016. As soon as we have issues of potholes and those kinds of approvals, we intend to produce the things. It’s going to be recurring in terms material, so we will start the crushing. of having to do work and more work on Probably somewhere in the very first it. quarter of 2016 we should have the In some of the more significant areas on crushing done and then the roadwork that access road from the airport to will actually begin next summer. Inuvik, can that work be more MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. permanent in terms of a paving project Beaulieu. The Member for Yellowknife rather than chipsealing where we’re Centre, Mr. Hawkins. going to have to continue to do that maintenance work over and over? Can QUESTION 907-17(5): the Minister, while he’s doing his survey, IMPACT OF FISCAL RESTRAINT look at areas, especially that one little S- ON THE PUBLIC SERVICE curve where we can get better, longer MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. stability in those roads by paving it Speaker. The other day, on Tuesday to October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 35 be precise, the Finance Minister type of financial crash in our cash indicated that considering reductions to position, so we must be looking at the workforce to ensure expenditures do layoffs, as I’ve heard repeatedly in not exceed revenues is part of the multiple departments? Can he elaborate obligation they have to provide the 18th as to their strategy and details that Assembly with the best information they’re going through in those exercises possible. and initiatives? Further to that, the Minister of Public HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The only Works said today in the House, with a budget that we’re dealing with for the flat revenue outlook and the need to rest of this sitting will be a capital take a hard look at how we spend our budget. The government of the future money in coming years, operating will be discussing other budget items. effectively and efficiently is more This government will evaluate the cost important than ever. of human resources. The government In light of what both Ministers have does want to give the incoming commented on and stated in this House, government an opportunity to what is the Department of Human contemplate all of their options, and part Resources doing in their transition of the options is looking at the cost of planning with respect to reducing public human resources. servants as a cost-cutting option and MR. HAWKINS: I can never say measure going forward? enough, but jobs are important, and I MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. know how important they are to not only Hawkins. The Minister responsible, Mr. Yellowknife but to the small Beaulieu. communities. They have a major impact on our economy. In the publication we HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. call 20/20: A Brilliant North, NWT Public Speaker. As a government, we have an th Service Strategic Plan, we talk about obligation to ensure that the 18 growing the public service. We often Assembly is provided with the best hear the Finance Minister directly talking transition information as possible as to about trying to attract 2,000 new people our fiscal situation so that they can to the Northwest Territories. Lastly, I’ll make decisions based on the say even from the Minister’s fiscal challenges and opportunities that are update, he talks about the importance of before them. our flat population growth as the main MR. HAWKINS: The Finance Minister, source of revenue as it begins to in his fiscal update just two days ago, decline, noting that only 19 percent of said the revenue is flat and, in essence, total revenues are ones of our own by the year ’19-20 he had said that we source. I don’t know how we’re going to will be down to what we estimate is a do it by cutting, slashing and laying off. $10 million surplus that will fund things How do layoffs, in comparison to those like capital, and of course, it will be the concerns that I’ve been raising, balance short-term cash deficit. out with the objectives under the 20/20: Can the Minister of Human Resources A Brilliant North strategy to build the elaborate as to what this government is public service? Thank you. doing to ensure that we don’t face that October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 36

HON. TOM BEAULIEU: This HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you. government will not be laying any of the Any of this type of work with human public service off, but we do provide the resources will include talking about the best information possible, as I indicated, 900 vacancies that we’re currently for the next government to look at and carrying in the books. We don’t have the for the next government to have all of number of positions that we are the information necessary through the evaluating for layoff because I haven’t complete costs of human resources, the seen any such plan to lay off certain current vacancy rates of human people who are currently in the public resources. If the next government was service at this time. to look at the vacancy rates then that MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. would be presented, if they wanted to Beaulieu. The Member for Weledeh, Mr. look at the costs of the public service, Bromley. how many casuals we’re carrying in the public service, they would look at our QUESTION 908-17(5): workforce planning strategies. We have HEARING AIDS FOR CHILDREN the Building 20/20 as a recruitment and MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. retention and development of talent Speaker. My questions are in follow up strategies. Those are all of the things to my statement yesterday on the need that we will provide to the next for hearing aids for all young children in government so they can make those the Northwest Territories for the Minister informed decisions. Thank you. of Health. Currently, not all NWT MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. children are able to access any Beaulieu. Final, short supplementary, programs to cover the costs of the Mr. Hawkins. hearing aids crucial to their MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. development. Although the GNWT sees Speaker. Can the Minister clearly fit to support the early identification of articulate how many positions they’ve children with hearing loss, they do not evaluated for potential layoffs as a provide all children with the intervention recommendation to the next they require in order to succeed. government? This work is going on right I’d like to ask the Minister, what is the now. They have said repeatedly it’s not status of action to address this gap? their hand on the rope, but I can tell you Mahsi. they’re giving the next government the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. nudge and all the material that they Bromley. The Minister of Health, Mr. need. So I want to understand the Abernethy. valuation and evaluation that they’ve looked at, at this particular second, that HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you, they’re billing department by department Mr. Speaker. I thank the Member for by department. No one can dodge that raising this particular issue. The question because it’s the responsibility Member did raise this issue in July and of this Cabinet. That information falls on at that point I was able to read the report your shoulders. So, I hope the Minister that the Member has referred to, and the of Human Resources can answer that report suggested that we can support question. Thank you. this small number of children who are affected here in the Northwest October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 37

Territories with a very small sum of MR. BROMLEY: This is a small money. number of people, and to those I have since directed the department to involved, it’s extremely important, as the move forward to find the money from Minister knows. within to provide hearing aids to young This week I had a communication with children that the Member is describing. an audiology professional, one of our They’re in the middle of that process staff, who said “In the grand scheme of now. I was going to wait until a little bit things, it seems so insignificant, but later until I actually had something to when you are working with these announce as far as a completed policy, parents and having to look them in the but I have directed the department to do eyes and tell them their child has a that and it’s underway now. We hearing impairment and it’s going to cost anticipate that we’ll be in a position to $2,465, the cost of a pair of hearing aids start providing those hearing aids to and ear molds, to give them access to those affected children in the next sound, well, it’s a difficult place to be in couple of months. Thank you. as a professional and I imagine as a MR. BROMLEY: Thanks to the family too. And there is simply no Minister. That’s great news, great news reason why we aren’t supporting these indeed, and I hope the word can get out babies and kids.” to families that this is relevant to very So again, I really appreciate the soon. Minister’s action on this and I would ask The estimate for the annual cost in how soon will you be able to let the 2012, as the Minister knows, was pretty front-line staff know that there’s hope on modest. Has he had a chance to update the immediate horizon and they can that and is there an explanation of the start talking to families. Mahsi. differences that are anticipated? Mahsi. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Thank you. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Because They probably just heard with the we have such a small population here in Member’s comments and my the Northwest Territories and everybody commitment to making this happen, but who’s going to need a hearing aid does I will have the department work with have to go through the audiology unit at Stanton and the Stanton Clinic to ensure the Stanton Medical Clinic, we know the that the practitioners know that we’re individuals who are going to be coming working on this and that the solution is through and how many children are on its way. Thank you. going to be affected. It’s been a very MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. small number over the last number of Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, years. We anticipate that the cost in Mr. Bromley. 2012 was around $22,000. The MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. technology prices haven’t radically Speaker. I wouldn’t doubt they are changed. We believe it’s going to be listening, and the most important about the same amount of money. But question will be, when will this happen? as I said, once I have more details I will When will this be in place? Mahsi. absolutely be sharing it with the Member and with committee. Thank you. HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: We do have to write some policies; we do have October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 38 to make sure that we have the ability to MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. provide the actual physical hearing aids. McLeod. Minister of Finance, Mr. I will get more information for the Miltenberger. Member. I will get back to you on when we anticipate to go live. Thank you. TABLED DOCUMENT 319-17(5): MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. MEMORANDUM OF Abernethy. Time for oral questions has AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE expired. Item 8, written questions. Item GOVERNMENT OF THE 9, returns to written questions. Item 10, NORTHWEST TERRITORIES replies to opening address. Item 11, AND GOVERNMENT OF petitions. Item 12, reports of standing NUNAVUT ON THE NORTHERN and special committees. Item 13, EMPLOYEE BENEFITS reports of committees on the review of SERVICES PENSION PLAN bills. Mr. Hawkins. ACTS HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: 7) Reports of Committees Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table on the Review of Bills the following document, entitled “Memorandum of Agreement Between BILL 54: the GNWT and the Government of AN ACT TO AMEND THE Nunavut on the Northern Employee FOREST MANAGEMENT ACT Benefits Services Pension Plan Acts.” MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to report to the Miltenberger. Justice Minister, Mr. Assembly that the Standing Committee Ramsay. on Economic Development and Infrastructure has reviewed Bill 54, An TABLED DOCUMENT 320-17(5): Act to Amend the Forest Management NORTHWEST TERRITORIES Act. The standing committee wishes to CORONER SERVICE 2014 report that Bill 54 is not ready for ANNUAL REPORT consideration in Committee of the Whole and that the bill not be further HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, proceeded with. Thank you. Mr. Speaker. I wish to table the following document, entitled “Northwest MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Territories Coroner Service 2014 Annual Hawkins. Item 14, tabling of documents. Report.” Thank you. The honourable Premier, Mr. McLeod. TABLED DOCUMENT 321-17(5): 8) Tabling of Documents ANNUAL REPORT OF THE TABLED DOCUMENT 318-17(5): CONFLICT OF INTEREST CABINET OPERATIONAL COMMISSIONER WITH GUIDELINES RESPECT TO THE FILING OF DURING A TRANSITION PERIOD DISCLOSURE STATEMENTS HON. BOB MCLEOD: Thank you, Mr. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table the following Ramsay. Pursuant to Section 99(2) of document, entitled “Cabinet Operational the Legislative Assembly and Executive Guidelines During a Transition Period.” Council Act, I hereby table the Annual October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 39

Report of the Conflict of Interest failure to implement the action plan Commissioner with respect to the filing formulated in 2008; of disclosure statements for 2014. And further, that the government work Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Ms. Bisaro. with the Disabilities Council to propose the best way to actively move forward TABLED DOCUMENT 322-17(5): with a Disabilities Action Plan; DRAFT OMBUDSMAN ACT FOR THE NORTHWEST And furthermore, that the government TERRITORIES produce a response for consideration by the House by June of 2016. MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table a document, entitled Thank you, Mr. Speaker. “Draft Ombudsman Act for the MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Northwest Territories.” Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Item 16, notices of motion for Speaker. first reading of bills. Item 17, motions. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Ms. Item 18, first reading of bills, Mr. Bisaro. Mr. Bromley. Abernethy.

TABLED DOCUMENT 323-17(5): 10) First Reading of Bills ARTICLE FROM NWT LITERACY BILL 68: COUNCIL AN ACT TO AMEND THE ON UNIVERSAL CHILD CARE CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. ACT, NO. 2 I’d like to table an article, entitled “Universal Child Care Study Highlights HON. GLEN ABERNETHY: Mr. Benefits” from the NWT Literacy Council Speaker, I move, seconded by the newsletter September 30, 2015. Mahsi. honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, that Bill 68, An Act to Amend the Child and MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Family Services Act, No. 2, be read for Bromley. Item 15, notices of motion. Mr. the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Bromley. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. 9) Notices of Motion Abernethy. Motion is in order. To the motion. MOTION 48-17(5): SOME HON. MEMBERS: Question. NORTHWEST TERRITORIES DISABILITIES SERVICES MR. SPEAKER: Question has been called. Bill 68 has had first reading. MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that on Monday, ---Carried October 5, 2015, I will move the Item 19, second reading of bills. Item following motion: now therefore I move, 20, consideration in Committee of the seconded by the honourable Member Whole of Bills and other matters: Bill 45, for Deh Cho, that the government work An Act to Amend the Workers’ with the Northwest Territories Compensation Act; Bill 49, An Act to Disabilities Council and community Amend the Deh Cho Bridge Act; Bill 56, councils to assess the reasons for the Miscellaneous Statute Law Amendment Act, 2015; Bill 59, Estate Administration October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 40

Law Amendment Act; Bill 60, An Act to ---SHORT RECESS Amend the Motor Vehicles Act, No. 2; CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Bill 61, An Act to Amend the Public I’d like to call Committee of the Whole Airports Act; Bill 62, An Act to Amend back to order. When we recessed the Coroners Act; Bill 63, An Act to yesterday, we were on the Department Amend the Victims of Crime Act; Bill 64, of Education, Culture and Employment. An Act to Amend the Co-operative I’d like to ask Minister Lafferty if he Associations Act; Bill 65, An Act to would like to bring witnesses into the Amend the Safety Act; Minister’s Chamber. Minister Lafferty. Statement 221-17(5), Sessional Statement; and Tabled Document 281- HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Yes, I 17(5), Northwest Territories Capital do, Madam Chair. Estimates, 2016-2017. By the authority CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): given to me as Speaker by Motion 10- Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Does 17(5), I hereby authorize the House to committee agree? sit beyond the daily hour of adjournment SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. to consider business before the House, CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): with Mrs. Groenewegen in the chair. I’ll ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to please 11) Consideration in Committee of the Whole escort the witnesses to the table. of Bills and Other Matters Minister Lafferty, for the record, could you please introduce your witnesses. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): I’d like to call Committee of a Whole to HON. JACKSON LAFFERTY: Mahsi, order today. What is the wish of the Madam Chair. I have with me, to my left, committee, Ms. Bisaro? David Stewart. He is the deputy minister of Education, Culture and Employment. MS. BISARO: Thank you Madam Chair. To my right is Olin Lovely. He is the Madam Chair, we wish to continue with assistant deputy minister of corporate Tabled Document 281-17(5), NWT services within the Department of Capital Estimates for 2016-2017, Education, Culture and Employment. starting with continuation of the Department of Education, Culture and CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Employment and, time permitting, Thank you, Minister Lafferty. If I could Environment and Natural Resources; direct Members’ attention, please, to Industry, Tourism and Investment; page 14 under Education, Culture and Justice; Lands; Municipal and Employment, infrastructure investments, Community Affairs; and NWT Housing $6.627 million. Corporation. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Does the Agreed. Thank you. On page 16, labour committee agree? development and standards, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. infrastructure investments, $1.672 million. CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): Thank you. We will commence with that SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. after a brief break. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 41

CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, If I could just turn your attention, then, Minister. Ms. Craig, Mr. Campbell, back to page 13, to Education, Culture welcome back to the House. and Employment, total infrastructure Committee, we are on Environment and investments, $8.299 million. Natural Resources. We’ll just open up SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. with general comments. Is committee CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): prepared to go into detail? Do Members agree that concludes SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. consideration of the Department of CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Education, Culture and Employment Committee, we’re going to defer page capital? 19 until after we have dealt with SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. consideration of the activity. If I can turn CHAIRPERSON (Mrs. Groenewegen): your attention to pages 20 and 21, I’d like to thank Minister Lafferty and his conservation, assessment and witnesses. monitoring, infrastructure investments, $100,000. Does committee agree? CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, committee. We’re going to continue here SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. with the capital estimates. We have the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Pages 22 Department of Environment and Natural and 23, Environment and Natural Resources. With that, we’ll go to the Resources, environment, infrastructure Minister responsible to see if he has investments, $100,000. Does committee witnesses he would like to bring in. Mr. agree? Miltenberger. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: I CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Pages 24 do, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. and 25, forest management, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, infrastructure investments, $21.571 Minister Miltenberger. Does committee million. Does committee agree? Mr. agree? Bromley. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Sergeant- Just with a couple of questions on the at-Arms, if you could please escort the air tanker fleet, we started the purchase witnesses in. of these last year, I believe. When do we expect delivery of these aircraft, and Minister Miltenberger, if you’d be kind if that’s spread over time, when are we enough to introduce your witnesses to getting the first one and when are we the House, please. getting the last one? HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have with Mr. Bromley. We’ll go to Mr. Campbell. me the deputy minister, Mr. Ernie Campbell; and Ms. Susan Craig, the MR. CAMPBELL: The schedule, as Mr. director of finance and admin. Bromley points out, started ’15-16, and it was over to ’16-17. We expect the delivery for the eight aircraft in the spring of 2017. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 42

MR. BROMLEY: Will that be all of them proponent that would be successful in arriving at the same time? I guess while managing this fleet on a go-forward I’m asking that, what is the plan? Does it basis. take particular qualifications for these MR. BROMLEY: I will leave it at that. aircraft or can those positions be filled Thank you, Mr. Chair. with existing aircraft expertise in the NWT? CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Committee, we are on pages 24 and 25. MR. CAMPBELL: That would be for all Ms. Bisaro. of the aircraft, all eight of the aircraft. We have now started the process for the MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I operations and maintenance contracts might be on the wrong page. Next page, for these aircraft, and that will call for the thank you. proponent to supply the qualified CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, personnel for these aircraft as well. Ms. Bisaro. Again, we are on pages 24 MR. BROMLEY: Thanks for that and 25. Forest management, response. I’m wondering: it sounds like infrastructure investments, $21.571 those will be workers coming here from million. Committee agree? somewhere else, or will they be people SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. who are hired locally? I’ll get another CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Pages 26 part in here. I assume we would need and 27, water resources, infrastructure some sort of hangar facility as part of investments, $790,000. Ms. Bisaro. this. Maybe I could just get what the MS. BISARO: Thanks, Mr. Chair. I have plan is for that, as well, and when we a question here with regard to the type might see that, if that’s something we of lab equipment. I seem to recall that would be constructing in the capital we spent some money on the Taiga Lab budgets. last year. Because of devolution, we CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, took over the lab, took over the federal Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger. responsibility. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Could I get an explanation, if my Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We anticipate recollection is correct? If it is, what that this would be a request for equipment are we upgrading and proposals, that there are, we believe, replacing when we spent money just last eminently qualified and capable year on the lab? Thank you. northern businesses that would be very, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, very interested in a contract like this, Ms. Bisaro. Ms. Craig. and we would anticipate, and we would make sure it’s in the contract that, of MS. CRAIG: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The course, northern pilots be checked out Taiga Lab will be replacing some of its on these planes that are there. There testing equipment within the lab. I are existing airline companies up here believe the piece of equipment they will clearly that have the size and ability, be replacing in 2016-17 is an ion could look and manage the hangar analyzer. They have their equipment space or provide for that. So we that they replace on a lifecycle basis. anticipate that there is every reason to So, every year we’ll probably see money believe that there would be a northern October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 43 in our capital plan for some equipment for the next foreseeable 10 years, why that they will be replacing. it’s not projected in the documents that As to the land and the building, that we were given? Thank you. would be under Public Works’ capital CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, projects. Ms. Bisaro. Ms. Craig. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, MS. CRAIG: Thank you, Mr. Chair. With Ms. Craig. Minister Miltenberger. the transfer of the Taiga Lab, we are HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: working their lifecycle replacements into Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a quick our long-term capital plan. We are supplement, if I may. The Taiga Lab taking inventory of their assets and was part of the devolution package and assessing their needs on a priority basis the federal government knew, for some and filling them into our plans. Each time, that they were going to be piece of equipment is a separate asset, transferring assets, so they didn’t so they will be brought forward as a renovate and rehabilitate every asset separate project. Thank you, Mr. Chair. they had to peak condition before they CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, turned it over to us, that’s one thing. Ms. Craig. Committee, we are on pages What was brought before the House last 26 and 27, water resources, time, if my memory serves me correctly, infrastructure investments, $790,000. was the bringing on, of course, the staff Does committee agree? as employees and not contract SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. individuals where they, under the federal CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you. system, paid their way by doing all the Pages 28 and 29, wildlife, infrastructure scientific work that they do and getting investments, $5.378 million. Does reimbursed from industry that offset their committee agree? Mr. Bromley. wages. We brought them on board permanently. We do recognize, as well, MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. that the Taiga Lab is well past its best I see an upgrade to the washhouse at before date and is going to be on the list the Tundra Ecosystem Research to be renewed or replaced. Thank you. Station, which I’m pleased to see. There is a lot of leading edge research based CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, at that research station. Minister Miltenberger. Ms. Bisaro. What is the long-term thinking of this MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair, research station? I know there was and thanks for those explanations. Just some discussion of that with change in a follow-up question. If it’s likely that we personnel over the past few years. are going to see expenditures for lab Could I get the latest thinking on that equipment in each year, the background facility? Thank you. information that we got did not show expenditures in following years. It simply CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, shows the expenditure for this particular Mr. Bromley. We’ll turn it over to Mr. year. Campbell. Could I maybe get an explanation as to MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you, Mr. why, if we are going to spend $70,000 Chair. A long-term plan for this research or $100,000 every year, we know that station is to continue to build the project October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 44 as we go forward, knowing, through the investments, $5.378 million. Does science agenda, we are building committee agree? partners for research in the North. We SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. are well aware of the Canadian High Arctic Research Station and that CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, development. We want to continue to committee. Turn back to page 19, forge ahead with partnerships with Environment and Natural Resources, academic institutions and build this total infrastructure investments, $27.939 research station. This is the first time million. Does committee agree? that we are investing with infrastructure SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. into this station. Most infrastructure in CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, the past had been through partnerships committee. Does committee agree that and in-kind resources with other we’ve concluded consideration for agencies, particularly the federal Environment and Natural Resources? government. As we go forward now SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. with our science agenda, we want to build this infrastructure going forward, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, knowing some of the large issues we committee. At this time I’d like to thank face in the science area going forward. the Minister and our guests, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Campbell and Ms. Craig, for joining us. If I could please ask the Sergeant-at- CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Arms to escort our witnesses out of the Mr. Campbell. Mr. Bromley. Chamber. Thank you. MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I Continuing on with our agenda today, just want to express my support for that we have next on our list Industry, decision and that plan. It’s particularly Tourism and Investment. With that, I will become more critical that governments turn it over to the Minister responsible to such as ours step into the major gaps see if he has any witnesses he wants to left by the federal government pulling bring in. Minister Ramsay. out of science and with our recent devolution, I think this is a totally logical HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. step. In my view, it will only become Chairman. I do have witnesses. more important. The mid-tundra is quite CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, different than the High Arctic research Minister Ramsay. Does committee situation, and as the world starts to agree? express the change that’s coming upon SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. us, this could be an important facility to help us understand that with these CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Sergeant- partners that the deputy minister at-Arms, please escort our witnesses in, mentioned, I certainly appreciate that. please. That’s all I have, Mr. Chair. Minister Ramsay, please introduce your CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, witnesses to the House. Mr. Bromley. I will consider that more of HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. a comment. Committee, we are on Chairman. It’s my pleasure to introduce pages 28-29, wildlife, infrastructure to the House the witnesses I have with me today. To my right is Ms. Kelly October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 45

Kaylo, assistant deputy minister of ITI; to a park and would be the responsibility to my left is Ms. Rhona Stanislaus, of the Department of ITI for the acting director of finance and construction of that road. administration with the Department of MS. BISARO: So, to relate it to Industry, Tourism and Investment. something I understand within Prelude CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Lake Park, it would be the same sort of Minister Ramsay. Welcome to the a road as from the highway to get to House, Ms. Stanislaus and Ms. Kaylo. Prelude Lake itself. Would that be a Committee, we are on Industry, Tourism good comparison? Thank you. and Investment, page 45 of your capital HON. DAVID RAMSAY: That wouldn’t investments. With that, we will turn it be a fair comparison in that there are over to general comments. different land tenures in that park at SOME HON. MEMBERS: Detail. Prelude Lake and the road itself isn’t the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Is responsibility of the park until you get committee prepared to go to detail? into the park itself. I guess a comparison might be, say, Pontoon SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Lake Park where there is a bit of an CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, access road into Pontoon Lake. Thank committee. We’ll defer consideration of you. page 45 until we are finished the details. MS. BISARO: That’s good. Thank you, I will get you to turn your attention to Mr. Chair. pages 48 and 49, tourism and parks, infrastructure investments, $3.598 CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you. million. Does committee agree? Ms. Continuing with questions on tourism Bisaro. and parks, I have Mr. Bromley. MS. BISARO: Thanks, Mr. Chair. Are MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. we including page 50 as well? I am surprised and disappointed to see that there’s not significant work planned CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): That would for Prelude Lake area. I am wondering if be correct, Ms. Bisaro. That would be I could get a status on what work has 48, 49 and 50. Ms. Bisaro. been done there and what is still to be MS. BISARO: Thanks, Mr. Chair. I just done. I know there’s a lot of concern have a question with regard to the about the parking areas down by the Gwich’in Park Lake access road. I know dock and the need to do some work on we have a program within that dock. Obviously, low water time is a Transportation for access roads. I’m good time to be in there doing that sort wondering why – this is obviously a road of work. Maybe I could start by asking issue – it’s in this department as for an update on the status of that opposed to being in the Department of redevelopment at Prelude Lake Park. Transportation. Thank you. Thank you. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister Ramsay. Mr. Bromley. Minister Ramsay. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chairman. It would be different than Chair. I thank the Member for the a community access road in that it gets question. With the limited capital dollars October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 46 that we do have, we’ve done a lot of MR. BROMLEY: Thank you very much work at Prelude Lake and we will for that comprehensive response. I think continue to put some dollars into there’s a good record in Hansard for Prelude Lake. Just to update Members, constituents who may be interested. the marina at Prelude Lake boat launch, Would this work be proposed to come PWS plans to use a standing offer forward as a supp since it’s not in this agreement with a marine engineer to capital plan? draw technical specs for the mooring system and fabrication for the floating HON. DAVID RAMSAY: This is current dock system that will complement the year spending, so it’s already been existing concept designs. We expect the accounted for. engineering contract to be completed MR. BROMLEY: I’m not sure I fully this month. These engineered drawings understand that. I understand the work will go to tender later this year, due to to get us to the point of being ready to some procurement procedures attached do the work in the field, but I would to the election transition period. Tenders assume that that needs to take place cannot proceed until after the period is during the construction season after the over. We expect to begin in the spring of 1st of April, and I don’t see that work next year. referred to in the capital plan here. As far as loop D, the tender for the build That’s why I’m wondering whether it is closed and we are ready to award the would come forward in a supplementary contract. An internal committee of DOT, appropriation. ENR and Lands is also helping to guide HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Perhaps I’ll the project and we are hopeful that work have Ms. Kaylo explain the detail to how can begin soon after the contract award the money is going to be spent this year, this fall. and as I mentioned, it’s already been in On to the shoreline improvements, the this year’s capital plan. tender closed September 14th for on-the- CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, land work. The in-water work to remove Minister Ramsay. Ms. Kaylo. vegetation and place barriers to prevent MS. KAYLO: The projects that the regrowth has been cancelled due to Minister spoke of were approved in last permitted requirements and after a lack year’s capital plan, so they are for this of interest to bid on the work was shown current fiscal year, ’15-16. The work by potential contractors at a pre-tender that’s underway right now is all in meeting. Improvements planned are to anticipation of completing these projects refurbish the breakwater as per the by the end of this fiscal year, March 31, concept drawings developed last fall. 2016. We have, as the Minister Vehicle access on the southern portion identified, marine engineer drawings will be maintained and shoreline that, once completed, will be presented recreational space on the northern out for tender for the work for the marina portion will also be developed. Permits at Prelude. A fair bit of work is required are not required for this project as it’s there. Of course, the extreme low water considered maintenance as long as conditions this year have proven there is no work that has to be challenging for us. The new loop D, completed in the water itself. which went through consultations this October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 47 past year, is also underway. The tender in this capital budget and I’m just for the building of that particular loop wondering what’s the concept behind has just closed, and again, we’re in the building fences into parks. My fear is stage of awarding the contract and that we’re making them look like an anticipate that that work will be institution as opposed to a park. I just completed by March 2016. see several projects on the fencing-type Then the shoreline improvement, same stuff and I wonder what the concept is sort of thing. There were some and why we’re putting up a bunch more modifications planned around what was fence. presented in terms of the beach area as CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, a result of getting more information on Mr. Bouchard. Minister Ramsay. what could be refurbished along the HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, breakwater, but that work is anticipated Mr. Chairman. The fencing that to be completed this fiscal year as well. Members will see is to protect assets All those three projects were planned, first and foremost. We have put a budgeted for, and are underway now. number of fences in and we will have to There is another project for Prelude continue to look at ways to ensure that Lake planned for the ’16-17 Capital our assets are protected and not left to Plan, which is identified in the Member’s be vandalized and potentially damaged. books as well. We can speak to that if That’s why you see the expenditure for required. fencing. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, On the extended parks season, I know Ms. Kaylo. I have next on my list Mr. the Member and I and other Members Bouchard. have had discussions about the MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. possibility of extending the season, Chair. I have a few questions here. First, especially in the southern part of the I’ll just make a comment. I have heard Northwest Territories where we are good things about our parks from some seeing the milder weather into the end of the tourists who come through. It’s of September. This is something that I good to see we continue to update think we’ll have to continue to have a those facilities. Obviously, Mr. Dolynny, I look at how this can happen. There are think yesterday or the day before, was some problems when freezing talking about some of the access in temperatures happen and the impact on springtime and fall time. I know that’s an our equipment like shower facilities, O and M thing, but if we’re going to washroom facilities, and things of that invest some capital into this thing then I nature. We have to take a look at this, think we need to open up some of those and if there is a way to ensure that we parks for a little bit longer in the can keep parks open longer, I think springtime and a little bit longer in the that’s something that going forward the fall time. Definitely an issue. department will certainly be looking at it. I guess my first question is, and I know MR. BOUCHARD: I think recently, the Minister is also the Minister of within the last month or so, we had a Justice and I know Justice built some public meeting and one of the big fences. We have a bunch of fencing discussions was about some of the park assets and some of the minor repairs October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 48 that need to be done in the park. In next, let’s say, three years that we have parks in and around the Hay River area currently slotted, or will we just continue and the Twin Falls area, I’m just to do small capital projects. wondering: does the department have a HON. DAVID RAMSAY: No, we don’t consistent plan to do assessment in all have any large scale projects planned. its park facilities, and so on an annual basis we kind of look at what needs to CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, be repaired and what needs to be Mr. Ramsay. Committee, again, we’re replaced. As far as I know, we have a lot on page 48, 49, and 50, tourism and of wood structures, so rotting wood and parks, infrastructure investments, stuff like that, especially in trip and fall $3.598 million. Does committee agree? areas such as walkways and stuff like SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. that. Does the department have a CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): If I can get maintenance program where they you to turn back to page 45, Industry, assess all the needs? Tourism and Investment, total HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Yes, the infrastructure investments, $3.598 department and the regions do a lot of million. Does committee agree? work on looking at our infrastructure SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. when the park season ends, cataloguing CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Does areas of concern, places where we need committee agree that we’ve concluded to look at making some investment and consideration of Industry, Tourism and upgrading and looking at maintenance Investment? issues. This is done, and I know when you’re dealing with the travelling public SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. and our residents using our parks, it’s CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, very important that that work happen committee. At this time I’d like to thank every year. We also have park officers our witnesses for joining us here, Ms. and park staff who frequent the parks Kaylo and Ms. Stanislaus and, of during the park season that are course, Minister Ramsay. If I can get the consistently bringing issues to our Sergeant-at-Arms to escort the concern, and they can be addressed in witnesses out of the House, please. a timely fashion. Committee, as we agreed upon earlier, MR. BOUCHARD: My next question is we’re going to continue on with our about the actual budget. It kind of capital estimates here with the indicates that all of the capital budget for Department of Justice. With that, I’ll turn ITI is under small capital projects. Can it over to the Minister responsible to see the Minister just remind what that level if he has any witnesses he’d like to bring is? Is it $50,000, $100,000 that we have in. Minister Ramsay. to be under in order for it to be a small HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, capital project? Mr. Chairman. Yes, we do have HON. DAVID RAMSAY: That would be witnesses. Thank you. between $50,000 and $400,000. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, MR. BOUCHARD: I’m just wondering: Minister Ramsay. Does committee for future considerations, do we have agree? any major large capital projects over the October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 49

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. party? How big does this vehicle need to CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, be? Are we looking at a fairly expensive committee. Sergeant-at-Arms, if you vehicle or is it, you know, similar price to could please escort the witnesses into something you or I would buy off the lot the House. that isn’t going to break the bank? Thank you. Minister Ramsay, if you would be kind enough to introduce your witnesses to CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, the House, please. Ms. Bisaro. Minister Ramsay. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m pleased to introduce Mr. Chairman. The sheriff’s vehicle is an the witnesses who I have with me today. eight-person vehicle. It’s required to be To my left is Sylvia Haener, deputy that size and it transports court parties. minister, Department of Justice; to my Here in Yellowknife it would transport right is Leanne Hannah. She’s the the court party to Behchoko, so it has to acting director of finance with the be of a certain size. The cost on a Department of Justice. vehicle of that nature is somewhere in the area of $65,000. Thank you. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Minister Ramsay. Ms. Hannah, Ms. MS. BISARO: Mr. Chair, that seems Haener, welcome to the House. like a heck of a lot of money for a Committee, again, we are Justice, which vehicle. I guess the $65,000, is that sort is pages 51 and onward. We’re going to of a standard price for a vehicle this turn it over to general comments. size, or is this a speciality vehicle, apart General comments, Justice. Is from the size of it that will carry eight committee prepared to go into detail? people? Is it speciality in that it has extra security measures or extra safety SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. measures? Is it bulletproof, says my CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, colleague. committee. Committee, we’re actually It just seems like that’s an awful lot of going to defer page 51 until money. I would have presumed we consideration of the activity as a whole. could get a vehicle of that size and that I’ll get you to turn to page 52, capability for, I don’t know, 10 or 20 corrections, infrastructure investments, thousand dollars less. Thank you, Mr. $7.846 million. Does committee agree? Chair. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Mr. Chairman, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you. that is the going price for a vehicle of Page 54, court services, infrastructure that nature. In fact, it might be a little bit investments, $867,000. Does committee on the low side when you look at agree? Ms. Bisaro. vehicles in that class that have to carry MS. BISARO: Thanks, Mr. Chair. I up to eight people. Also, the court party wanted to ask a question about the would have their documents and other sheriff’s vehicle. What kind of a vehicle necessary equipment with them when is it that is required? This says a they travel, so it is necessary to have a suburban or similar full-size to transport vehicle of this size. court party. I guess, how big is the court October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 50

As far as whether the vehicle would be HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Mr. Chairman, specially outfitted, no, it wouldn’t. It sorry for the confusion. There are two would need to have towing capacity for vehicles here in Yellowknife and one in potential seizures and also a radio Hay River. The one that’s in Hay River would be installed in the vehicle. But currently is going to be surplused. One other than that, there are no special of the vehicles is going to move from adjustments to that vehicle that will be Yellowknife to Hay River and a new made. Thank you. vehicle will be purchased to replace that MS. BISARO: I think I may have vehicle in Yellowknife, so there still will forgotten my question. Oh, we have two be two vehicles in Yellowknife. As I vehicles, as I understand it, in mentioned in my previous comment, if Yellowknife, two sheriff’s vehicles in the vehicle is used to have the court Yellowknife. So I understand that this party in, say, Behchoko, it’s very one that is being replaced is the one important that the sheriff’s office have a that is used to transport the court party. vehicle here in Yellowknife. There is Does the other vehicle need to be of the definitely a requirement to have two of same size and the same expense, or is these vehicles on hand to carry out the it a bit more of a light-duty vehicle for duties of the sheriff’s office. Thank you. travel in and around Yellowknife? Thank MS. BISARO: Thanks to the Minister. I you. appreciate that, that we need two HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Mr. Chairman, vehicles. But it would seem to me that the other vehicle will be sent to Hay we’re not sending two vehicles to River to replace a sheriff’s vehicle in Behchoko every day, so can the second Hay River. So, yes, it will need to be of a vehicle that is here not be a bit more of similar class with the seating capacity, a light-duty vehicle? Thank you. equipment, storage capacity, towing HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Mr. Chairman, capacity, and that vehicle, when the new that other vehicle, if the one vehicle is in one comes on line, the existing vehicle Behchoko, would still be required to will be put and utilized in the community transport a court party to the airport or of Hay River. Again, the ability to pick up a court party from the airport, transport the court party is paramount in their equipment and the court party this. We’ll have one in Hay River and itself. So there is a requirement to have one here in Yellowknife. Thank you. vehicles of a similar nature located here MS. BISARO: So now I’m confused. I in Yellowknife to carry out the duties of think the background information we got the sheriff’s office. Thank you. said that there are three vehicles: one in CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Hay River, two in Yellowknife. I hope Minister Ramsay. Continuing on with you don’t send the vehicle that we are questions on the court services activity, I replacing to Hay River, because I have Mr. Hawkins. understand that it’s beyond repair. But MR. HAWKINS: Thank you very much, then Hay River can deal with that. Mr. Chairman. First of all, let me thank I’m talking about the second vehicle my good colleague Ms. Bisaro. I was here in Yellowknife. Does it need to be worried I was the only one who had an as much of a heavy-duty vehicle as this issue with this particular vehicle and I one that we’re currently buying? October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 51 thought her questions were well thought winter clothing during the winter months, out to the issue. Mr. Chairman. Thank you. I’ve had grave concerns about a MR. HAWKINS: Mr. Chairman, it $65,000 vehicle just to drive a judge sounds like we should buy them a around in luxury, because we want to moving van, not a luxury leather Denali make sure that they don’t feel the Suburban, who knows? I mean, let’s be bumps on the way to Behchoko. I don’t honest. Maybe the Minister can explain think there’s any vehicle you could drive why a Ford Escape that holds four or to Behchoko without feeling the bumps, five people in there, or even a four-door but in all seriousness, the ultimate pickup couldn’t do this. It would answer here is so they can ride in certainly come at half the price for the comfort. occasion of driving to Behchoko. We’re Let’s start off with not the hypothetical of not even getting into this yet about the the eight-person vehicle. How many fancy $65,000 vehicle sitting at the people actually go to Behchoko on the courthouse probably doing nothing court process? I mean, we don’t put the during the day while one is on its prisoners in there with the judge. I adventure on its way to Behchoko. I’m mean, for shame we wouldn’t want that. curious what the Minister has to say So, let’s be very clear on this. How about that. Thank you. many people in that actual vehicle would HON. DAVID RAMSAY: In order to be driving to Behchoko in a normal conduct the work of the sheriff’s office, circumstance? Not the one time we max it’s vitally important that they have out all eight seats, but the normal vehicles to ensure that they can carry circumstance. Thank you. out their duties and in this case they CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, need a vehicle of this size and of the Mr. Hawkins. Minister Ramsay. nature, and as I mentioned earlier, if the one vehicle is in Behchoko, the sheriff’s HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, office here in Yellowknife could utilize Mr. Chairman. The court party is the vehicle for transport to the airport, required to travel to communities to hear picking up from the airport and also the court matters, and in some cases road execution of seizures and the ability for travel is the most economical and the vehicle to tow a boat or other pieces logistical way to travel. All circuits range of equipment and that is why it’s from three to five days in duration and, important that it’s a vehicle of this type. in the case of Behchoko, the vehicle accumulates between 600 and 1,000 As I mentioned to Ms. Bisaro, and I kilometres per week. There are know the Member mentioned Denali, it’s between five and eight staff who travel not a luxury vehicle. It doesn’t have all on these circuits and are required to the bells and whistles on, and it won’t. bring all items required to conduct court, It’s a vehicle that’s a good size and with such as files for court, hard of hearing capabilities to ensure that the sheriff’s equipment, interpretation equipment, office can conduct its business in a safe CCTV equipment, laptops with portable manner. Thank you. printers, portable defibrillators, personal MR. HAWKINS: How many times did items for staff for the day and also the court party go to Behchoko last year? October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 52

HON. DAVID RAMSAY: I’m starting to couldn’t wait a day or until the evening wonder how this is germane to the to be done, which could probably be question about a vehicle, Mr. Chairman. done by a smaller vehicle. I have yet to MR. HAWKINS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I find something that, say, a small Ford mean, if he’s saying they need this Escape or a small four-door pickup truck vehicle, this luxury vehicle to sit in the that could carry people, and the final fleet at the courthouse or can go to point is it’s also to travel juries. Well, it’s Behchoko, I am curious how often it’s been my experience that juries aren’t used. But keep in mind, it’s not just one made up of eight people, so I don’t know vehicle, it’s two that they have in their how you’d have an eight-person vehicle, fleet. We’re going to get to the second luxury vehicle by the way, plus five to one in a second that sits on standby so eight people in it, plus the jury. The they can travel in great comfort. So, how math doesn’t add up; the story doesn’t many times did the court party go to add up. So, can we get some facts on Behchoko last year? It’s a good how many times it went to Behchoko question. last year, because I think it’s important. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: I’m not sure if The next question will about the other the Member was listening earlier when I vehicle. Thank you. said it accumulates between 600 and HON. DAVID RAMSAY: When that 1,000 kilometres per week. I will get the vehicle transports the court party, and number of times the vehicle travelled out there’s a court circuit in the community to Behchoko, and we also have to of Behchoko, its occupants are in the remember, Mr. Chairman, that these community usually between three and vehicles are utilized also to transport five days. They require transportation juries when needed, and again, it’s very while they’re in the community, and the important that the sheriff’s office have vehicle is a very important part of the this type of equipment to carry out their sheriff’s office and their ability to carry jobs. Thank you. out their work. The sheriff’s office MR. HAWKINS: Well, it’s a shame that conducts seizures of assets across the the Minister is so ill-prepared to answer Northwest Territories and they are this question because I think it’s required to transport them to secure germane to the problem, which is if it’s storage. This can occur in any only travelling once or twice a week in community within the Northwest 52 weeks, that tells you that maybe – Territories and the sheriff’s officers again I wish I had the number before travel via roadway whenever they can to me; he doesn’t seem to want to share it keep the costs of travel down, and a or he doesn’t have it – that if it even heated cargo area is required if some goes twice a week, that means it’s items can’t be exposed to the elements. sitting in Yellowknife three days a week. The vehicle must have a towing capacity I not only mention that, I spent a lot of to move items that could be seized time talking about the second vehicle. which, as I mentioned, could include a So, the second vehicle has to be so boat, snowmobiles, trailers or personal large to tow a boat, for example. So watercraft. You can’t tow those with a you’re telling me that that seizure, call it smaller vehicle. Thank you. a boat or whatever the case may be, October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 53

MR. HAWKINS: Well, I hate to call the So, perhaps the Minister could go back Minister wrong, but he’s wrong because and answer the honest question, which I did it last week. I towed a big boat with is: How many times did it go to my vehicle and it’s a small vehicle. It’s Behchoko last year? I don’t know why not as fancy as the $65,000 luxury they haven’t answered this question and vehicle they want for the sheriff’s office how do we go forward without knowing to drive the judges around and it doesn’t this. I don’t know why they’re asking for ride as smooth as an Audi, but I’ll tell $65,000 without being able to answer you my vehicle did it. that question. Thank you. So, I still haven’t got to the answer of HON. DAVID RAMSAY: A safe how many times did the vehicle go to assumption would be, and it would vary Behchoko last year and the Minister from month to month, depending on doesn’t have it, he just wants to cite what month of the year you’re talking platitudes, saying, well, it goes three to about, but an average of at least twice a five times. But we don’t really have a month the court party travels from real answer, because I think that’s Yellowknife to the community of important when going to the next Behchoko. They’re there for three to question, which is: How often is that five days, at least twice a month, Mr. vehicle used, the one that’s left behind. I Chairman. Thank you. think Ms. Bisaro very astutely picked it CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, out, which is: Is that busy running to Tim Minister Ramsay. Committee, we’re on Horton’s? Is that busy maybe serving a court services, infrastructure summons which only is a piece of paper investments, $867,000. Does committee and a cup of coffee, really? I mean, it’s agree? not driving court parties around town so we need a full-sized vehicle, a $65,000 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. vehicle sitting at the courthouse just in CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Mr. case we might need it to run someone Hawkins, I’ll allow another question on to the airport. Why not make two runs this activity as long as it’s nothing to do to the airport? with the sheriff’s vehicle. We’ve When I had invited the mayor, the old exhausted all information on that one. mayor of Edmonton, to Yellowknife, I Go ahead, Mr. Hawkins. made a comment in saying, “Yes, MR. HAWKINS: Well, debate is being Yellowknife suffers from rush minute,” stifled very quickly then. I’d like to know and he laughed for about 20 minutes. how many times the other vehicle is “Because we’re so small,” I said, used and what type of services the other “everywhere is about five minutes sheriff’s vehicle is using. So I’m staying away.” So, we don’t need the second away from the specific on the $65,000, super-sized vehicle just to drive a sheriff but it’s important to understand what it’s around so they can serve a summons. I being used for. mean, it just seems like poor CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, management and a little bit on the Mr. Hawkins. I will give you some gluttony side of ourselves. I mean, we latitude on the other vehicle. Minister only really, from the sounds of it, could Ramsay. barely justify one, Mr. Chairman. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 54

HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, that to do those particular jobs. This is Mr. Chairman. We will get the Member just a terrible expense. The reason it the detailed information on what the continues is because it’s continued. other vehicle is used for. I will just People got used to a big vehicle and the mention again the cost of the vehicle at enjoyment of it. That’s where I will leave $65,000 is not excessive for this type of it. They like the big car because they vehicle and it is not certainly a luxury want to be important, I guess. vehicle, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, MR. HAWKINS: I’m not sure it’s worth Mr. Hawkins. I will allow Minister questioning anymore. The information Ramsay to have a final comment. will come. We all know… What do we HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, have? We have five days left in the Mr. Chairman. We have a duty and an Assembly. I’m sure it will show up on my obligation to ensure that our staff and th desk on October 9 . It’s really the duties that they carry out on behalf disappointing. To say that it travels to of the residents of the Northwest Behchoko now from three to five days a Territories each and every day are done week to at least twice a month, that tells and conducted in a safe manner. These me… It just doesn’t tell me it’s needed. I vehicles are required to ensure that the think I’d like to move a motion to delete sheriff’s office can conduct its business it. I think that this is a super-sized in a safe manner. I don’t think we should vehicle this department and this section be underscoring the important work the doesn’t need. If they need one, keep sheriff’s office does on behalf of all one in your fleet but you don’t need two residents here in the NWT. Thank you. super-sized suburbans sitting there most of the time gathering dust. They CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, are some of the most expensive Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Hawkins, you’ve got vehicles to drive anyway. Anybody some time left. Okay, thank you. who’s got one will tell you that you get Committee, we are on pages 54 and 55, almost zero gas mileage out of that court services, infrastructure investment thing, so we’re not only buying a super- $867,000. Does committee agree? sized vehicle, we are buying an SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. inefficient one. If it’s that important, we CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, should be driving them in a big bus. I’m committee. Page 57, services to public, not suggesting buying a school bus, but infrastructure investments, $365,000. I am suggesting we find a different way Does committee agree? to do this business. It wouldn’t be SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. unrealistic, Mr. Chairman. That’s the fact. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Ms. Bisaro. I’ll leave it at this: I think it’s a terrible waste. I would prefer a policy that forces MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. us down to at least one vehicle and a There is one item under this particular small Escape. I can tell you that even section. It’s to retrofit some office space. delivering summons, little pieces of It seems like a huge amount of money paper, they don’t need something more to me to retrofit what seems to be a than a Toyota eco car or something like small office. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 55

How big is this office and what kind of Members more detailed information on renovations are being done that are the scope. We are going to be going to cost us $360,000 or so? Thank combining the MEP and the rental you. office. It is a costly venture to be CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, combining these two spaces and putting Ms. Bisaro. We’ll go to Ms. Hannah. in the requisite security requirements into the space. MS. HANNAH: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The rental office is located on the third CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, floor of YK Centre East and currently it Mr. Ramsay. Ms. Bisaro. is staffed by a full-time admin MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I coordinator and two contract rental don’t need any more information. By the officers. The contractors may or may not time I get the information, we’ll be done be in the office at any given time. They with the budget. That’s all I have, Mr. are contractors that are there as Chair. Thanks. required to perform their duties. So, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, quite often one admin rental officer is Ms. Bisaro. I have another question there on their own in that position. So from another Member on this activity. this office retrofit is to bring that office up Mr. Hawkins. to safety requirements for a single FTE office as that person is there quite often MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. on their own. The amount is based on a Chairman. My question would be, quote that we came to in collaboration what’s driven this initiative. Thank you. with the Department of Public Works CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, and Services. This is the quote we put Mr. Hawkins. Minister Ramsay. forward in the infrastructure planning. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It’s the safety of the staff Ms. Hannah. Ms. Bisaro. in the office. Thank you. MS. BISARO: Thanks, Mr. Chair. MR. HAWKINS: Was it predicated on Thanks for the explanation. I an incident or changing a standard in understand, from a security perspective, work environment? Was it a union that we need to make sure that our staff initiative? Was it brought to the are secure no matter where they’re department because of some type of working, but could I get a sense of the concern? Thank you. scope of this renovation, because HON. DAVID RAMSAY: The $360,000, I could buy a house for that. I departmental occupational health and am just trying to understand. Is it just safety specialist has identified the within this office that we’re doing renos current set-up of the rental office as a or do we have to blast through a brick health and safety risk for the employee wall to put another door in or staffed in that location. At times the something? I’m not sure. Thank you. clientele the staff is dealing with can be CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, frustrated and very agitated with their Ms. Bisaro. Minister Ramsay. landlords and, therefore, can express HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, aggressive behaviour, putting the staff Mr. Chairman. We can try to get the at risk. Proper physical security measures need to be put in place to October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 56 ensure the health and safety of that somebody is upset, that doesn’t mean… staff. Thank you. I don’t know. I mean, I’m just trying to MR. HAWKINS: Has there been an understand. We’re talking about the incident that any of us have been nature of the work that people are… In unaware of? If so, when? Let’s go back other words, when people file to how often there has been an incident, complaints they’re upset. I’d like to know if there are any, in the last year. what the definition is they’re using as the low water mark of incident. I want to CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, understand this. Mr. Hawkins. For that, we’ll go to Ms. Haener. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Ramsay. MS. HAENER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have had some situations over the HON. DAVID RAMSAY: Thank you, past summer, not just in that office but Mr. Chairman. The Workers’ Safety and also in the legal aid offices. Thankfully, Compensation Commission has there was nothing serious that took regulations regarding employees who place, but we are also aware of have to work alone, and as we’ve situations, and I think they were mentioned, the departmental reported on publicly this summer, that occupational health and safety specialist involved social work staff, as well, identified the current set-up of the rental involving clients who became quite office as a health and safety risk for the aggressive. employee that is staffed there. We, as a government, as the Minister It becomes incumbent upon us to has said, have an obligation to our staff address that health and safety risk, and to make sure that we’re providing them as my deputy minister has stated, there a safe work environment. It became was an incident there and we need to very clear to us that this particular office ensure that we can protect the presented risk that we need to fix. employee that we have there. There Thank you. have been incidents in other offices in Yellowknife and other communities, and MR. HAWKINS: Just to be clear, we we need to ensure that we’re doing are talking about the rentals office. How everything we can to make sure that our many incidents have happened recently employee is protected. and how many over the last year, just to be clear? MR. HAWKINS: I’m just trying to get a sense of how far we’re going to go. I MS. HAENER: I am aware of one mean, are we talking about a counter particular situation which involved both that people will have between the two of the rentals office and legal aid. I’m not them? Are we talking about putting them aware of any others, but one is too behind a glass wall, that they have to many, and it became clear, as I speak through the little vent and slide indicated, that there were risks paper under the window? I’m just associated with the office set-up and curious how far or how big city we’re that we need to fix that. becoming because one person may MR. HAWKINS: I’m trying to have been a little upset, and I’ve yet to understand now the department’s find out how upset. definition of “incident.” Just because October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 57

People get passionate. Some would bring how much money to change the maybe swear, and some define that as whole office around? I mean, we have to aggressive, absolutely. But in the bigger be fair and honest here. I mean, nobody scheme of things, people sometimes get wants anyone to work in an unsafe emotional, and you have to sort of look environment. No one’s saying that. But, at the whole situation at large. That’s I mean, how far are we going to take what I’m trying to understand. this? I mean, are we turning a papercut What does “incident” mean and how far into a triage incident, you know, and we is this going to go? Are we going to put have to send 20 doctors down? I mean, a counter in place or are we going to put what is the incident that we’re speaking them in a glass bubble where they’re of? Give us a sense of how serious this locked in, security coded and, like I said, is. If there’s only been one, again, speak through the little metal vent, slide nobody wants anyone hurt. No one’s paper under the window? I mean, how suggesting that at all, and I’m very far is this going to go? I’d like to know. disappointed to even think that would be alluded to, but the thing is, what are we HON. DAVID RAMSAY: I think we talking about? should be more focused on the health and safety risks as opposed to what HON. DAVID RAMSAY: I thought it constitutes an incident. We can’t be too was quite clear what we’re talking about safe when it comes to protecting the and that’s the safety and well-being of employees that we have. the staff that we have in the rentals office. This type of security and finish, To get to the Member’s question, we are the equipment will be similar to other looking at redesigning the space to departmental office space with similar share a reception area and also a clientele such as maintenance second egress at the back of the office enforcement and also the probation space to allow a second way for the offices. Again, it’s very important that we employee to get out of that office should understand what we’re up against, and the need arise. that is a clientele who can be MR. HAWKINS: Well, again, not unpredictable. They are well known to knowing what “incident” means here, other social agencies in Yellowknife. we’re just taking a stab, and I would We’ve had experiences with these folks caution the Minister on thinking I don’t at other offices, including legal aid, so think personal safety or employees don’t we can’t be too safe and we have to matter. I think that that’s an atrocious ensure that we are protecting our description of what I was trying to say. employees. I’m trying to understand, did someone MR. HAWKINS: We still haven’t had get upset and swear? Did someone take the answer of what an incident means or a swing? Did someone throw something in the context of… Thanks, Mr. at it? Did they do the George Bush Bouchard. throw a shoe at them? What are we talking about on that and how far are we The other thing is that now the Minister going to go without knowing this? is stereotyping the clientele by saying they’re well known by other social I mean, all I’m hearing is “incident.” agencies. I don’t know what he means, Well, incident means what? We have to October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 58 and in all honesty, I mean, we’re just workers that we have, and we need to sort of guessing at good faith. ensure that they’re safe. Incident, again I’m saying, was it CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, someone upset? They crumpled up a Minister Ramsay. Committee, we’re on piece of paper and were mad because page 57, services to public, they didn’t get the answer they wanted? infrastructure investments, $365,000. I mean, what are we talking about? It’s Does committee agree? just continue to say as minimum as SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. possible, promise to get back to us, even though we know no one will get CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): back to us in a timely way that it will Committee, if I can get you to turn back affect this budget and just drag the clock to page 51, capital estimates, Justice, out so we lose our 10 minutes. Really, total infrastructure investments, $9.078 all we’re hearing here is just the same million. Does committee agree? thing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Can the Minister explain what type of CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Does incident happened so we can committee agree that we’ve concluded understand the necessity for that? I consideration of the Department of mean, no one wants a serious casualty Justice? of any sort or any casualty, and that’s SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. the issue, but I’d like to know what we’re CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, talking about. He can say all he wants, committee. I’d like to thank our guests well, we know what we’re talking about. here today, Ms. Hannah and Ms. I want to know what the incident means. Haener. Thank you for joining us today, Was it someone crumpled up a paper? and of course, Minister Ramsay. If I can Swore? Are we actually talking a get the Sergeant-at-Arms to please physical altercation? Like, what are we escort our witnesses out of the talking about? Chamber. HON. DAVID RAMSAY: I thought the Committee, we’re just going to take a deputy and myself have made it quite five-minute recess. clear that there have been incidents. It shouldn’t matter to what degree those ---SHORT RECESS incidents happened. Some of them have CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): I would like been serious in nature, and when you to call committee back to order. I will are dealing with a rental office and continue with our estimates on capital people are facing the prospect of with next on the list, which is Lands. I perhaps losing the place they live, they will turn to the Minister responsible to are under a tremendous amount of see if he has witnesses to bring in. Mr. pressure, and we can’t be too safe when McLeod. it comes to protecting the employees we HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Yes, I do, have, because when people are faced Mr. Chair. with that type of pressure, sometimes people don’t deal with that pressure very CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, well and they lash out at these front-line Minister McLeod. Does committee agree? October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 59

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Okay, committee, we are going to CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, continue with capital estimates. Next on committee. Sergeant-at-Arms, if you the list we have Municipal and would escort the witnesses in, please. Community Affairs. Again, I will turn it over to the Minister responsible to see if Minister McLeod, would you like to he has witnesses he wants to bring in. introduce your witnesses to the House? Minister McLeod. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Yes, thank HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Yes I do, you, Mr. Chair. With me I have to my Mr. Chair. right, Mr. Mark Warren, deputy minister of Lands; and to my left, Brenda CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Hilderman. She is the director of Minister McLeod. Does committee corporate services. agree? CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Ms. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Hilderman and Mr. Warren, welcome CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, back to the House. Committee, we are committee. Sergeant-at-Arms, if you on Lands, general comments. Is would escort the witnesses in, please. committee prepared to go into detail? Minister McLeod, would you be kind SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. enough to introduce your witnesses this CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, evening? committee. Committee, we are on pages HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Yes, thank 59 to 61. Operations, infrastructure you, Mr. Chair. To my left I have Mr. investments, $1.350 million. Does Tom Williams, deputy minister of MACA; committee agree? and to my right, Ms. Eleanor Young, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. who is the assistant deputy minister of MACA. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Committee. If I can get you to turn to CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, page 59. Lands, total infrastructure committee. Mr. Williams, Ms. Young, investments, $1.350 million. Does thank you for joining us this evening. committee agree? Committee, we are on Municipal and Community Affairs. We are on page 63 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. onward in your capital estimates. We CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, will turn it over to general comments. committee. Does committee agree that Ms. Bisaro. we have concluded consideration for the MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Department of Lands? There is just one section, the SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. infrastructure contributions to CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, communities here in this department committee. Mr. Warren, Ms. Hilderman, and I have to state, I think I stated in my thanks for joining us for an easy one, opening remarks to the budget, as well, and thank you, Minister McLeod. and I have stated here in this Sergeant-at-Arms, if I could get you to department, that communities have please escort the witnesses out of the been funded for their capital Chamber. Thank you. infrastructure at the same level for far too many years. If I look at the October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 60 background information that we are CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, provided, the government is proposing Ms. Bisaro. Mr. McLeod. to keep communities at the same HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Yes, thank infrastructure funding level for the next you, Mr. Chair. The Member is two or three or four years to come. That absolutely correct; funding has stayed at is a real concern for me. the same level for a while. We have Our communities, under the New Deal, been very fortunate to have been able to which started quite a few years ago leverage some federal dollars to send now, have been taking on more and the communities. We recognize there is more infrastructure. They have accepted a bit of a shortfall, and as far as the what used to be government assessment, it was part of the formula infrastructure and it has now become funding review. Not only did we look at community infrastructure and as they the O and M, we looked at the capital as grow, as communities grow, they build well. That work has been completed. their own infrastructure. Yet, they are Thank you. funded at the same level for their capital CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, projects as they have been for quite Minister McLeod. I will allow Ms. Bisaro some years. I don’t know how far back it another comment as she has time on goes but it goes back a long way. the clock. Ms. Bisaro. There have been discussions about MS. BISARO: Thanks, Mr. Chair. I doing a review. There certainly has guess I could have held this question, been a review done on operational but if the review has been completed, I funding and I am very glad for that and have to then ask, when are we going to there were some changes made, but see an increase in this funding? There’s there needs to be, and there should no projection that I’m aware of to have been, the same review on capital increase infrastructure funding anytime infrastructure funding for communities. I soon. don’t think that’s finished. I hope that it is in the works. I would ask the Minister To the Minister: How long are to confirm that it is happening. If it is not communities going to have to wait happening, it certainly had better be one before they get some more capital of the first things that are done in the dollars for their infrastructure? Thank 18th Assembly. It’s really important that you. the government recognizes that our HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: We had communities are doing more and more originally intended to start this work I on less and less and we cannot expect think early in the life of the 18th them to be subsistent. We can’t expect Assembly, but we fast-tracked it and did them to protect our residents, to provide the formula funding review work before services for our residents if we don’t the end of this Assembly. Once the 18th give them the capital dollars to keep Assembly comes into being, they will their infrastructure up to snuff. So, it’s have to have a look at the fiscal just a comment, Mr. Chair. situation. If there are opportunities to I do have a question. Where are we at in increase the money to the communities, terms of a review of the funding? Other then the Minister of the day will have to than that, that’s all I have. Thank you. bring that forward and try to get the October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 61 funds increased. So, the work has general comments on Municipal and already been completed, Mr. Chair. Community Affairs, I have Mr. Bromley. MS. BISARO: To the Minister: I can MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. appreciate that we’re in a tight fiscal I believe the Minister answered my situation; however, $28 million in a 1.6 question. Did you know I was going to or 1.7 billion dollar budget is a very ask this question? With his last breath small percentage. I know communities there, I think he mentioned that the are not going to get a doubling of the formula review did indicate a shortfall of infrastructure dollars that are shown in about $24 million. Did I hear that this budget, but I think our communities, correctly? Yes. So we’ve been if we expect them to continue and if we underfunding about $24 million a year. expect our residents to continue getting Yes, it’s a serious issue. I know the the municipal services that they need – Minister recognizes it. I think the dogs, ditches and dumps, as they say – question has been answered. Thank if that’s going to continue, we’re going to you, Mr. Chair. have to give them bigger infrastructure CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, th dollars. So, I strongly encourage the 18 Mr. Bromley. I’ll treat that as a general Assembly to look at the amount of comment. No question. Next on my list money that’s going into our communities for general comments I have Mr. for capital and to increase it by even 10 Bouchard. percent would make municipalities happy, I’m sure, and that’s not a heck of MR. BOUCHARD: That was my same a lot of money. Thank you. questioning along those lines is with the Association of Municipalities. We got CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, together last night and obviously they’re Ms. Bisaro. I didn’t quite hear a question concerned with some of the way this there, but I will allow the Minister a capital budget seems to be locked in comment. Minister R.C. McLeod. forever. Obviously, they are seeing HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, pressures. Obviously, the cost of living Mr. Chair. We agree with the Member. I is going up, the cost of contracting. I think it’s a discussion that needs to would assume that that number is happen early in the life of the 18th so probably light at $24 million. I know Hay there are opportunities to secure some River has a lot of infrastructure pressure funding for the communities which badly right now, and that’s not only what need it. I think that’s a debate that has they’re using currently with our funding, to be taken up early in the life of the 18th, but gas tax money and they’re still because we have done all the work seeing deficits and it’s going to take through the formula funding review and I them probably 10 or 15 years. They believe there was a capital deficit of could probably just about eat up this about $24 million. So, we’ve identified it whole budget and not touch the whole and I think we’ve flagged it. Then again, deficit that they have. it’s a decision that’s going to have to be The bigger communities are seeing th made early in the life of the 18 . Thank more and more people coming there. you, Mr. Chair. There are more and more regional CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, pressures from different communities. I Minister McLeod. Continuing with think we need to really strongly look at October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 62 this as a funding arrangement and how On the larger centres, part of the we deal with the regional centres that formula funding review, again, was to go are seeing pressures. We have a lot of on a needs-based assessment. We people who come from outside the recognize that some of the larger community. We appreciate that for the centres are facing more pressures than economy, but a lot of our facilities and a lot of the smaller communities. So our infrastructure are used by those people. funding, I think beginning next year, ’16- Not only our physical structures and 17, is going to be more on a needs physical buildings but our emergency based, because we found that some of services and all that type of stuff, the smaller communities were getting medical services. We have a whole more funding than they can use and as bunch of pressures from the far as their needs went. So rather than surrounding area and I would assume cut them back, what we’ve decided to similar to regional centres throughout do is just to keep them at the same level the territory. they’re at until their needs catch up to Like my colleagues, I’d like to stress that the actual funding for gas tax and the we can’t lock this in. There has to be at Building Canada Plan. least a CPI index to that to get to some We recognize some of the challenges point where we’re seeing an increase to the Member is facing. I think part of our it, because at these levels the funding review was to help find ways we communities are going to keep falling can help the larger communities deal farther and farther behind and it gets with some of the pressures they’re more and more burdensome on the facing. taxpayers and it’s not necessarily fair MR. BOUCHARD: I appreciate that. I because not all the usage is being done think the Minister kind of moved into the just by the taxpayers. I’m not sure if in next question that I have. This funding the review they actually looked at that that we’re providing here isn’t tied to any regional concept of regional usages. Build Canada. Can they use this funding Can the Minister indicate to me whether as their equity for Build Canada they did that? applications and projects? Can I get that CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, clarification? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Bouchard. Minister McLeod. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: The HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, Member is absolutely correct; they can Mr. Chair. Part of the formula funding use some of the money that they get to review was to make some adjustment, leverage the funding from the Building because we had found that some of the Canada Plan as well. smaller communities had just about all MR. BOUCHARD: With that Building the infrastructure they need at the Canada, is it application-based or is the moment. Some of their biggest money being divvied up amongst challenges, I think, was the O and M on communities per capita case-plus? Are some of the infrastructure they have. So we doing a case-by-case application-by- I think we’ve allowed them to use I think application base? it was up to 10 percent of their CPI funding to help with the O and M. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Mr. Chair, we allocated X amount of dollars to October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 63 every community, but they have to come have some time to make use of the up through an application process to funding that they do have. I think they’ve justify the amount of money that we’re got up to 10 years. giving them. So, say if they were getting MR. BOUCHARD: Just for that $110,000 – we’ll use that for an example clarification, let’s say a community was – they have to have some projects, put getting $100,000 a year. Every tenth an application in place for $110,000. If year they could build a project for $1 we just put it into one big pot and it was million. Is that correct in my application-based then we’ve have assumption? competition from all 33 communities, so we thought doing it this way was HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: No, it’s one probably one of the easiest ways to allocation over that 10 years. So if they have some of the smaller communities were allocated $100,000, that’s what that might be lacking some capacity to they would have to use. It’s not get their applications in with some $100,000 a year for 10 years. It’s just assistance from our regional folks. $100,000 that is their portion of the Building Canada Plan. MR. BOUCHARD: Like I said, using this funding they would be able to get MR. BOUCHARD: So, in saying that, into Build Canada. So my next question our communities, are we given a lump on Build Canada, would they be able to, sum at the beginning of this Build if a community is not using it, would we Canada? I know in Transportation we’re be opening up that complete pool to the doing it over a period of time, 10 years. surplus towards the end of the year? Obviously, we’re not getting a lump sum Like, obviously communities, I would that we can hand it out to all the think the largest centres will have big communities at the beginning, are we? demand. So, will they be able to apply Or are we getting a percentage over 10 later, once a community…or is there a years and I think it’s 15 percent? Are we cut-off where communities won’t be able getting 1.5 percent every year or are we to use the money, will we open that getting the lump sum 15 percent and it’s surplus let’s say? going out to communities right away? I know in my experience at ITI, HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: They would sometimes with the contribution funding have to use the money to build a project it was allocated to regions, but after a and they would invoice us. Then we certain period of time the money went would be reimbursed from Canada, I into a territorial pot and everybody could think up to 75 percent of whatever their use it just so that the funds were used. project costs. Is there a plan to do that or are we just CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, going to let that money lapse or is it Minister McLeod. We’ll continue with carrying forward to other communities? general comments with Mr. Blake. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you. MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just It’s a 10-year program, so they can use speaking to the funding allocated to the those funds anytime within that 10 communities, I am somewhat years. They have to find a project that disappointed we’re going back to a matches the criteria and Canada has to needs base just because I’ve seen also approve the project. So, they do firsthand the process that we first October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 64 started with this for the communities, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, which was great. I know the Minister did Mr. Blake. Minister McLeod. mention that some communities weren’t HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, spending that money, but I’ll use a small Mr. Chair. What the community needs is community like Tsiigehtchic, for not our decision to make and that was example. To build whether it’s a garage, the beauty of the New Deal, is it gave with the funding that’s given, you have the community responsibility to make to save up for a number of years to the decisions based in their priorities. So actually have enough to build that piece if an enclosed rink was one of their of infrastructure. That’s what many of priorities then they would find ways to the communities are doing. So, it has to make it work. With the money that we do with planning. I know the department give them through CPI and that, they did provide some assistance in the can access bank financing and we’ve planning stages, but it is a learning had communities do that where they’ve curve for the communities, but I’ve seen accessed bank financing, knowing firsthand the benefits of the process we they’re getting their CPI funding every had in place when the New Deal first year to help pay down the loan. came out. Again, the beauty of the New Deal is Also, we’ll just use Tsiigehtchic as an that the decision-making is within the example again. Under the needs base community. So if we were still making process here, how would MACA identify the decision and they wanted to do a what the community needs? I’ll use small little rink in a small little community Tsiigehtchic for the prime example. All like Tsiigehtchic, it would get into the we have right now for a facility for our overall corporate picture and it may be youth for sports is the gymnasium. We years and years before that ever came don’t have an arena. We have a skating to see the light of day. But with the rink that was blown over with a big program we have now…and I think we storm we had a while back, but it’s a see as we travel throughout the clear indicator that that community Northwest Territories some of the needs an arena. So, will that be a projects. In one community, a youth priority under this needs base formula? centre might be a priority, so they use You compare that to a band office that their CPI money that we give them to we already have that’s functional, it’s build a youth centre, and another one pretty clear that an arena would might be a small community hall. outweigh the band office. The decision is pretty well up to the Will the department identify that as community and I don’t think doing it in a something that the community needs? needs base survey is penalizing the You know, we could have a skating rink. community. What we found was that Children usually have to go skate on the there were some communities that had lake. Those days are over and done a lot of infrastructure money banked that with. I know the Minister probably they weren’t using because there really skated on a few ponds, but in this day wasn’t much more infrastructure or they and age we have skating rinks and might have been facing challenges with arenas that the children could now make O and M. So we’ve tried to make it more use of. Thank you, Mr. Chair. of a needs base. It’s not needs based October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 65 saying, well, we think you need this as and I hope that it does continue to go on opposed to this. It’s, again, a decision through the years. For example, in they have to make and we continue to Aklavik the drainage that the community work with them on that. Thank you. has done has actually helped during the MR. BLAKE: The other thing, as I spring. We’ve noticed less floods mentioned earlier, with the assistance because of drainage, the drainage plan that MACA provides to the communities. that they did. We still need a little I’d like to ask the Minister, as we move assistance with the riprap and building forward, you know, a lot of planning up the roads there, but that’s something needs to go in place and architects. the community is still working on. Does the department provide that The other thing was in Fort McPherson, assistance or does the community have the hamlet that they built and they’re to go out and spend some of this money also building a new garage. It’s great for architecture work and design or is it for the community; that’s what they just design build? Thank you. need. As we move forward, we really HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you. appreciate this program continuing. We can provide technical advice, and as CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Mr. Blake, far as the actual project itself goes, the again, more of a comment, but I will communities have all gone and found allow the Minister a final word. someone to do the design for them. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you. They’ve actually led the contract We have capital planning folks and we themselves in most cases, hired their actually have capital plans from all the own project managers. They’ve actually communities for what they identified, been able to do it probably less some of their priorities for the future expensively than we could have as a years. Our capital planning group will government, because every time you work with communities and help them see the little polar bear there, prices with their capital plans, but as far as I seem to go up a little higher. know, I think we have a capital plan When the community goes looking for from pretty well every community for the prices, it gives them a few options and I next five years. So they’ve identified think we’ve found that they’ve been able some of their priorities and we’ll work to get some product on the ground, I with them as to how they can see those wouldn’t say cheaper, but a lot less hit the ground. expensive than we would have. But, no, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, we’re willing to work with the Minister McLeod. Committee, general community, provide them with some comments. Is committee prepared to go technical advice and maybe refer them into detail? to people or line them up with folks who do that. So, we provide a lot of SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. assistance, and at the end of the day, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, the decision is ultimately theirs to make. committee. We’re going to defer page Thank you, Mr. Chair. 63 until we’ve considered all the MR. BLAKE: It’s more of a comment. activities. I would turn your attention to You know, over the years I’ve seen a lot pages 65 and 66, regional operations, of benefits that this program provides October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 66 infrastructure investments, $28.002 HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, million. Does committee agree? Mr. Chair, to my right I have Mr. Jeff SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Anderson, who’s the president of the NWT Housing Corporation. To my left I CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): have Mr. Jim Martin, who is the vice- Committee, if I could get you to return president of finance and infrastructure back to page 63, Municipal and for the NWT Housing Corporation. Community Affairs, total infrastructure investments, $28.002 million. Does CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, committee agree? Minister McLeod. Mr. Martin, Mr. Anderson, welcome back to the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Committee, we’re on page 67 in the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Does capital estimates here. We’re going to committee agree that we have start off with general comments. I’ll go to concluded consideration of the Mr. Blake. Department of Municipal and MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I Community Affairs? just have two questions and comments. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. I’m very happy to see we have some CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, units coming into the Mackenzie Delta, committee. At this time I would like to also the replacement of four units in Fort thank Ms. Young, Mr. Williams, thank McPherson. As I’ve said many times, you for joining us and, of course, the with waiting lists of up to three to four Minister, R.C. McLeod. Thank you years, we have some young families again. If I could get the Sergeant-at- that are expecting children, expecting Arms to please escort the witnesses out newborns, ready to start a family but yet of the Chamber. Thank you. they’re on the waiting list. You know, they have been for anywhere up to a Okay, we’re going to turn our attention year, some for three years and there’s a now to the next on the list, the NWT real need for additions to our present Housing Corporation and the Minister stock. I can’t stress that enough. We responsible. I’ll ask him if he has any have to start planning here for witnesses to bring in. Minister McLeod. increasing what we have in stock right HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, now, even by ten would help in each Mr. Chair. Yes, I would. community. But, you know, even those CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you single units that we have been building Mr. McLeod. Does committee agree? over the years for the elders, that would SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. help a long way. That would free up other units that we have in the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, community. That’s something my committee. Sergeant-at-Arms, could you constituents keep requesting. There’s a please escort the witnesses into the real need for more units here, but I’m House, please. glad to see we have some new ones on Thank you. Minister McLeod, will you be the horizon here and look forward to kind enough to introduce your witnesses those opening. Thank you. to the House, please. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Blake. I’ll treat that as comment October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 67 here. General comments, NWT HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: All our Housing Corporation. We have Mr. planned replacement public housing Menicoche. units next year are going to be multi- MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very type units. All our planned affordable much, Mr. Chair. I just noticed some of housing units are going to be a duplex these units in the smaller communities, or a multiplex-type unit. just a general question about the MR. MENICOCHE: While I’ve got the concept of, in order to reduce costs, microphone, I’d like to speak a little bit duplexes or four-plex type of schematic. about future needs of Fort Simpson. Of Is there anything new in the works with course, due to the housing stock, there’s regard to that in placing those in the a need for a new eight-plex or a 10-plex smaller communities, Mr. Chair? Thank type of building. I don’t know if the you. department has that in their forecast for CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, future growth of Fort Simpson and their Mr. Menicoche. Minister McLeod. needs there. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Not at this Mr. Chair. That’s a direction that we’re point. As we plan as we go forward going in the future. If you notice, a lot of here, we’ll have to look at each communities there are a lot of detached, community and their needs going very large houses, and as we’re taking forward. We did, I think, have a couple those out of stock we’re going to more of duplexes or triplexes that were of a multi-unit type of configuration. I planned for Fort Simpson, but because think we have up to 68 percent of our of the situation there, we’re trying to find units that we have now are multi-unit ways we can get that product on the type of configuration. We find there are ground. As far as immediate future, it’s many benefits to that. We find that we’re not in the plan right now, but again, as th needing smaller units now instead of the we go forward and as the 18 Assembly big five-bedroom Webers we used to goes forward then they’ll start identifying have. So, that’s the direction the some of their needs in the communities. Housing Corporation is taking in the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, future and there’s a trickle-down effect Mr. McLeod. Is the committee prepared because it helps with all utility costs and to go to detail? the cost to maintain the unit. Thank SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): MR. MENICOCHE: I thank the Minister Committee, we’re going to defer page for that answer. With the project listing 67 until we have consideration of the for the ’16-17 construction year, are any activities. I’d like to next turn to pages of those multiplex-type buildings 68, 69, 70, 71 and 72, finance and planned for next year then? infrastructure services, infrastructure investments, $22.187 million. Ms. Bisaro. MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to make a general comment and reiterate the comments I made in my October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 68 opening remarks to the budget itself. In fortunate in the last couple of years that general, we don’t have enough public this Assembly has stepped up and filled housing units in the NWT in any of our in some of the gap of the money that we communities. Particularly here in lost through the declining funding, but Yellowknife, we have a huge wait-list for there’s going to have to be a decision, I public housing, we have a huge wait-list think, made in the future sometime as to for assisted living housing and so on. I whether we are just solely a public would encourage the Housing housing provider or we continue with the Corporation to seriously consider finding programs we have and continue to be a way to increase the number of units of challenged financially. public housing that we have. I know that I will have Mr. Anderson speak to the we are losing money through the CMHC non-residential renovation. declining funding, but we need, particularly in Yellowknife, a greater CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, number of units, we need higher Mr. McLeod. We’ll turn it over to Mr. numbers of stock. Anderson. That’s just a comment. I do have two MR. ANDERSON: Thank you, Mr. questions from page 72, the projects in Chair. We have a separate category in Yellowknife. The first one is it states: the way we categorize our housing “Non-residential building, 1 unit, major assets or our building assets. Everybody retrofit.” I’d like an explanation of why is quite familiar with affordable and the Housing Corporation is renovating a public housing. The non-residential non-residential building. buildings are related to facilities that we have where we lease out to other CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, government departments or non-profit Ms. Bisaro. Minister McLeod. organizations to provide services and/or HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, office space, as an example. In the case Mr. Chair. I’ll respond to the first part of of this project, it relates to a shelter in Ms. Bisaro’s concern and then I’ll have Yellowknife that we lease the building Mr. Anderson respond to the non- and because that’s a building owned by residential. the corporation, we are providing We hear the concern that we do need upgrades to that building to bring it up to more public housing across the good condition. Northwest Territories, and again, we CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, keep saying that we’re challenged by Mr. Anderson. Ms. Bisaro. the CMHC declining funding, but I think MS. BISARO: Thanks, Mr. Chair, and there’s probably going to have to come thanks to the Minister and Mr. Anderson a time where we can’t keep saying, well, for the explanation. This identifies it as we’re challenged by the CMHC one unit. Generally, when I see one unit declining funding. We have to think, or referenced in the Housing Corporation future government may have to make a information I think of like a two-bedroom decision as to whether we are just a apartment or a house or something. In public housing provider and use the this building, which is this non- money that we put into some of our residential building, is it the whole repair programs to help offset the losses from CMHC. I think we’ve been very October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 69 building that’s being upgraded and dollar payout at one time. That’s all I what’s the size of the building? have. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Ms. Bisaro. Minister McLeod. Committee, we are on pages 68, 69, 70, HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, 71 and 72, finance and infrastructure Mr. Chairman. It’s actually the Centre for services, infrastructure investments, Northern Families and it’s the whole $22.187 million. Mr. Bromley. building that’s going to be upgraded. MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. MS. BISARO: Good to hear that. I I’ve just been scanning this list know that building definitely needs it. repeatedly, looking for the words Ndilo That helps me understand the expense. and Detah and I’m not finding them. It’s not that I do not spend a good The other question I have is the next proportion of my constituency work on item in the list and it’s public housing, or housing issues in my community. I PH, public housing, housing wonder if I could get the Minister replacement reserve. I don’t remember thinking on that and what the strategy is seeing that in other descriptions of for the situation my people are facing. expenditures. I wonder if I could get an explanation or is this a normal practice CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, for us to have a reserve situation and Mr. Bromley. Just for reference, Mr. what is this referencing in Yellowknife? Bromley, page 69, item 7, there is a unit there. But I’ll let the Minister follow up CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): We’ll turn it with that. Minister McLeod. over to Mr. Anderson. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, MR. ANDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chair. We were positive that we had Chair. This project, we see when we’re Detah and Ndilo on the list here, but as doing large facilities that need either the Chair pointed out, it is on page 69. renovation or replacement, we don’t Let me put my glasses on...six units really have the resources to deal with it major retrofit. I almost gave them an on an annual basis, so we thought it extra one there. We recognize some of was appropriate to start setting aside the challenges the Member faces there. money for the Mary Murphy seniors You can recall we had a couple, I think facility. It’s 46 years old at this point. It’s we had a triplex there that was vacant. in pretty decent shape and we’d like to Folks are moving into that triplex, so we keep it going for many more years if at recognize the Member has had some all possible. But we want to start issues in his riding and he has brought building a base of resources so that we them forward to us. We are glad to see can deal with that when the time comes. that we have some work and some units CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, being major retrofitted in Detah and Mr. Anderson. Ms. Bisaro. Ndilo. Thank you. MS. BISARO: Thanks, Mr. Chair, and MR. BROMLEY: Thanks for the thanks to Mr. Anderson and to the Minister’s comments with sharp eyes Minister and staff. I think that’s great. As there. I actually had not found that one. I long as government allows us to do appreciate very much the retrofits that reserves like that, I think it’s a far better are done. I know the Minister is aware of way than doing a lump sum multimillion October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 70 the state of the housing in those and, again, it was pointed out about communities. It’s very difficult to visit some of the vacant units and we are people in their homes, which are not working the steps to try and address necessarily public housing units; people that. Hopefully, we are able to do that are fierce about trying to keep their own soon. homes going. Unfortunately, I have not Ideally, we would like to have clients for been successful in helping them get all of our HELP units that we put on the support from the corporation to deal with ground, try to get people transitioned some of those clearly traumatic into homeownership. For one reason or conditions. another, we seem to be, not only in that I know there was a triplex, there was community but we seem to in other also a couple of homeownership units communities, we have been challenged that have sat empty, brand new, for a to get people who are qualified. We couple of years now. I don’t know that it have changed some of our criteria to try is appropriate to ask what the strategy is to make them qualified, and for one for that. It seems appropriate, though, reason or another we have managed to that if we are going to build this get a few in. The ones that we haven’t infrastructure, we want to be able to been able to use, we have turned them enable and find a way to get people into into public housing units. Thank you, Mr. those units. Again, I appreciate the Chair. I went on a little too long. major retrofits on those units. I know the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Minister is aware of the need there. I Minister McLeod. Committee, again, we would appreciate comments on how we are on pages 68 to 72 on finance and can figure out how to get people into infrastructure services, infrastructure those units. Thank you. investments, $22.187 million. Does HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: The committee agree? Member has been very diligent in SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. bringing concerns of his constituents forward. Unfortunately, some of the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you. decisions that are made are ones that Mr. Hawkins. he wasn’t aware of or because of one MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I reason or another, folks were declined am just wondering what the net positive for some of the programs. impact will be in the Yellowknife We have done a number of things to try community for public housing in this and get as many people qualified for budget. Thank you. programs as possible. I think we have CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, one affordable housing unit left in Detah Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod. and our desire would have been to find HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, a suitable client to put into that unit. Mr. Chair. I’m sorry, Mr. Chair, I am Failing that, as we did in some of the going to have to ask the Member to other communities, we have actually repeat his question. turned it into a public housing unit. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): The impact, The corporation is well aware of the Minister, on Yellowknife housing with challenge that we face out there. We this budget. just had a meeting out there recently October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 71

HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, MR. HAWKINS: Other than the Niven Mr. Chair. We have a few projects that Lake… No, sorry. Niven Lake unit, that are here in the capital. We are just trying will put 19 new doors on the market in to find the dollar value. If we can’t come the Yellowknife area. There are no other up with it right away, I will commit to new doors being added to this getting that dollar value to the Member. community? Thank you. HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: I believe CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, that’s what I said. We are challenged Mr. McLeod. Mr. Hawkins. and we have the 19 doors now, the 55 MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I we got through the Income Support certainly hope before the end of Program, and other than that, that is session. That said, can the Minister tell where we are at right now. Thank you. me what the net positive impact on new MR. HAWKINS: It is my understanding housing opportunities through public that Yellowknife suffers as the housing will be in the city of community with the largest need, so not Yellowknife? Thank you. necessarily percentage but certainly in CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, the context of actual numbers. Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod. Can the Minister confirm that? Can he HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, also tell me how many people are Mr. Chair. As I said before, one of the waiting on the public housing list in challenges we’re facing is we are doing Yellowknife? Thank you. a lot of replacing of public housing, not HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: In answer to so much new public housing. We are the first question, yes. Second question, doing a 19-unit apartment in Niven we have a waiting list of 146 people on Lake. As far as future goes, we are the public housing wait-list in doing mostly replacement units. We Yellowknife. Again, I think some of these have, I think, through the ECE transfer families have to be on the wait-list to program, we have taken over I believe access the Income Support Program, so 55 units. The program went through they may already have a roof over their ECE before. They transferred the head but because they need to access money to us and then we, in turn, the Income Support Program, they need leased a unit from I think it was a private to be on the local public housing wait- landlord and we put income support list. Thank you. clients in those units. We turned them MR. HAWKINS: Under this particular into public housing, so there has been a circumstance – and now I am going to bit of an increase there but it is, as I said take a leap in a different direction – what before, a bit of a challenge and is one seniors housing does the Department of that we are working towards trying to Housing support in Yellowknife? Thank find solutions for. Thank you. you. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Anderson. MR. ANDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. In Yellowknife, of course, we have the Mary Murphy facility, we also October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 72 support many other projects in seniors complex and the other one into Yellowknife, including the seniors in public housing. Thank you. Northern United Place. Aven Ridge and MR. HAWKINS: Has Housing been Aven Manor are both income facilities. approached by anyone at Avens? We also support on the mortgage interest rate subsidy side on Aven HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: I believe we Manor. The other, I guess, point I would had a meeting with them it might have make, more as a general comment, 31 been just over two years ago, but they percent of our public housing units are talked about their desire to expand Aven let by seniors, so we have a significant Manor. Again, I think we had some number of folks in that program as well. preliminary discussions with them. I will Thank you. have to confirm that and I will commit to getting the information back to the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Member before the end of session. Mr. Anderson. Mr. Hawkins. MR. HAWKINS: Does Housing intend MR. HAWKINS: Thanks, Mr. Chair. to be involved or support the expansion Thank you for that and thank you for the initiative over at Avens for seniors? recap on those places. Can the Minister tell me how many doors we support in HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Yes, we’ll each of those locations? So, Mary continue to work with the groups that Murphy, NUP, Aven Ridge and Aven are involved and see if there are some Manor. Thank you. ways that we can be a part of the process. Thank you. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod. MR. HAWKINS: Does that mean that the Housing Corporation will in all HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Thank you, likelihood provide a cash support to an Mr. Chair. I commit to providing the initiative when it’s ready to be received if Member a list of the doors. We don’t asked upon by Avens? have that information with us right now and I’m not even going to guess. Thank HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Mr. Chair, you. we’ll be a part of the group there and if there are opportunities for us to provide MR. HAWKINS: Thank you. I’ll take it some input and be a part of the process, that will be before the end of session. and even if there was a cash That said, has the Minister been contribution then it would be part of approached in the last two years by any future Housing Corporation’s capital community group in Yellowknife to plan. extend the opportunity of housing for seniors? Thank you. MR. HAWKINS: Thank you. At present, I know it’s a moving number, the 146 HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Mr. Chair, mentioned earlier. Do we have any we have had discussions with the breakdown of what that actually is? Canada Winter Games folks about the Single people? Single parents with possibility of having an athletes village children? Dual parents without kids, with and helping them build an athletes kids? How many are seniors? Especially village. At the end of the Games, we certainly the last one by all means, but would turn one of those facilities into a those types of statistics and breakdown to the numbers. Thank you. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 73

HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: Mr. Chair, I CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank believe we just signed it off today, the you, committee. We’ll call committee breakdown, and we will provide it to all back to order. We’re going on to the Members. Department of Public Works and MR. HAWKINS: So, I’ll get a copy of Services. I’ll ask the Minister that before session ends? Thank you. responsible, Tom Beaulieu, do you have witnesses to bring into the House? HON. ROBERT MCLEOD: The reason we signed it off, it was an oral question HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. that I believe was asked by the Member Chairman. Yes, I do. for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley, and we just CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Does signed off the response today, so we will committee agree? be providing it to everyone. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Sergeant- Mr. McLeod. Committee, we’re on at-Arms, please escort the witnesses pages 62 to 72 and we’re on finance into the Chamber. Mr. Beaulieu, I’ll get and infrastructure services, you to introduce your witnesses, please. infrastructure investments, $22.187 Thank you. million. Does committee agree? HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Chairman. To my left I have deputy CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, minister of Public Works and Services, committee. If I could get you to return to Paul Guy; to my right, Laurie Gault, page 67, NWT Housing Corporation, director of the Technology Service total infrastructure investments, $22.187 Centre. million. Does committee agree? CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. you, Minister. Committee, we’ll start at CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you. page 73, we’ll come back to that after Does committee agree we have we conclude. I’ll go to general concluded NWT Housing Corporation comments on Public Works and consideration? Services. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Detail. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dolynny): Thank you. At this time I’d like to thank our CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Does witnesses here this evening. Mr. committee agree to go to detail? Anderson, Mr. Martin, thanks for joining SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. us and, of course, Minister McLeod. If I can get the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Okay, the witnesses out of the Chamber, page 73 we’ll come back to. Page 74, please. Public Works and Services, asset management, infrastructure Committee, at this time we will take a investments, $14.792 million. Does short recess. Thank you. committee agree? Mr. Dolynny. ---SHORT RECESS MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just some clarification on some of the October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 74 project listings associated with this MR. GUY: Thank you. Just bear with me activity. I guess, first and foremost, it for a moment. We do track the vacancy mentions here YK Centre of the space by region and by building, improvements. If I can just get a brief and of the commercial space that overview of what exactly that entails. normally would be considered suitable Thank you. for the type of occupancy that the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank government uses there’s about 8,400 you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Beaulieu. square metres currently available in Yellowknife. Thank you. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That is tenant improvements. MR. DOLYNNY: Okay, so what I’m The landlord will be paying for this. This hearing is that 8,400 square metres of would be an in and out expenditure. vacancy space in Yellowknife. What is that in square feet, because I deal in CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank different numeric here. What’s that in you, Minister Beaulieu. Mr. Dolynny. square feet? MR. DOLYNNY: Just a number, again, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Minister not trying to disclose an actual number Beaulieu. figure. Is this going to be a large asset to retrofit or change, or is this a small HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. project? I’m just kind of curious on the Chairman. That’s times 10.76. It would scope of the project. Thank you. be about 85,000 square feet. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Deputy Minister Guy. you, Minister Beaulieu. Mr. Dolynny. MR. GUY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. This MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you for that. I project is to accommodate the financial appreciate being right on the ball with shared services unit and Human conversions. That’s pretty impressive. I Resource staff and consolidate it in the like that. YK Centre. So it’s essentially the unit for So, it’s roughly 85,000 square feet Yellowknife of financial shared services versus how much commercial real and I believe about one floor of the YK estate that we have that’s actually Centre for HR. So within our total occupied. What percentage do we have, portfolio there, the percentage I would as a guess, as to what vacancy do we say in that building of the GNWT space have of commercial real estate in that will be tenant improved would Yellowknife right now? Thank you. probably be between 20 and 30 percent. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The 85,000 Thank you. square feet is actual vacancy space and MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you for that. I about 52,000 of that would be the one thank the department. Just a question building, the Bellanca Building. What we on commercial space or commercial real thought the Member had asked for was estate space right now in the the vacancy. So, if the Member wishes Yellowknife area. For our information, to have the number of what percentage what percentages of vacancy do we of leased space versus the owned have in commercial real estate space? space and how much of that is vacant, Thank you. we can provide that number. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 75

CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank Mr. Chair, I’m getting numbers you, Minister Beaulieu. Mr. Dolynny, somewhere in the order of 12 to 14 could you just clarify the question? percent of vacancy and I guess I need MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you. What I’m to get a grasp on this. So, will the trying to get at, Mr. Chair, is to get a department commit and provide the sense of where the department sits and Member a full breakdown on what has an understanding of what is the numbers they have for commercial actual vacancy rate for commercial real vacancy for Yellowknife and would they estate in Yellowknife. We are a large be able to provide that information tenant, both leased and owned, but I’m before the end of session? Thank you. trying to get a grasp and I know Public CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank Works is right on the ball on this I’m you, Mr. Dolynny. Mr. Beaulieu. sure. They know those numbers quite HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. accurately. I need to know, as a Chairman. Yes, we can provide that Member, what is the vacancy rate now information before the end of session. in Yellowknife that we have for information in terms of commercial real CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank estate. Thank you. you, Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. Dolynny. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you very much. you, Mr. Dolynny. Deputy Minister Guy. I appreciate that. So, my final question on this one, from the department’s MR. GUY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As standpoint in terms of having an impact the Minister said, of that 8,400 square or a negative or positive impact on the metres, 5,000 is tied up with the commercial space available in any type Bellanca Building. So while that is on of town or village, at what point or what the market, if you take most of the critical impact does the vacancy rate building it would be available. If you have in terms of the economics of that wanted to rent a floor, it’s likely not town or village or city? Does the available. But to the question, I think we department have a certain target would estimate – and I would have to go number? What I mean is when the back and check with my staff for the vacancy of commercial real estate gets latest number – but it’s probably in the 3 above a certain 7 percent, does that to 5 percent range. Thank you. have a negative impact on the so-called CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank rates in that area that the government is you, deputy minister. Mr. Dolynny. working on? Does the department have MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you very much. a specific target that they look at, I find that to be possibly a little bit on the especially for Yellowknife, where if we’re low side given some of the statistics that reaching that vacancy rate there is I know that are out there. I think that’s some concern? Is there a special target probably where the problem lies. It’s a figure that PWS has to monitor when we bit of a disconnect in terms of what we get to that critical factor of vacancy have, the department has in terms of versus occupied commercial space? vacancy rate for commercial real estate CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank versus what’s probably out there for you, Mr. Dolynny. Deputy Minister Guy. Yellowknife. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 76

MR. GUY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I the high heating costs, the foundation think the targets that we look toward is problems, poorly insulated walls, why just having a balanced portfolio in terms wouldn’t this be kind of fast-tracked, of ratio between leased and owned, especially when it got approval from the which is typical for what the government Peer Review Committee on April 21, would have in its portfolio based on best 2011? Why has it taken so long to start portfolio management practices in terms the construction and now we’ll have to of the overall available percentage of wait until 2017-18? Because with the vacant space where certainly we have poor insulation, the high heating costs, not set a target for what we think that those all equal to high utility costs. should be in Yellowknife. We think that Thank you, Mr. Chair. industry best practice is determined with HON. TOM BEAULIEU: We will be a reasonable level would be usually in starting construction next season, ’16- the 5 to 7 percent range would be 17. About 25 percent of the budget will normal to deal with the term and be spent this coming construction renewal of the portfolio as mid-life season. retrofits take place. MR. MOSES: I guess, in the interim, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank while the building is getting constructed, you, Mr. Buy. Mr. Dolynny. is there anything being done to the MR. DOLYNNY: I’m good. Thank you, current building in terms of the Mr. Chair. I appreciate it. foundation problems as well as the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Alright, insulation that’s probably resulting, as I committee. Next on my list I have Mr. said, in high utility costs, and is there Moses. also a safety issue with the foundation? If there are foundation problems, is MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I there a safety issue for the people see a couple of things here with the working in the building? shop replacements. I guess focusing first on the Inuvik shop replacement and CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank just going through the substantiation you, Mr. Moses. Deputy Minister Guy. sheet here. I guess the first question MR. GUY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The would be: When is the expected Member’s correct; the existing buildings construction and ready for move in for are quite old and there are a number of the groups that would be moving into lifecycle issues with them, but we have the new building? taken steps to ensure that they are safe CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank to occupy. We have stabilized the you, Mr. Moses. Minister Beaulieu. foundations. We also have, the staff are working in a number of locations HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. throughout the community. We have Chairman. We are expecting the some leased storage space that some majority of the construction to be in of their equipment and tools are stored 2017-18. So, at the end of that fiscal in and we also have a number of year the building should be ready for vacated buildings that are slated to be occupation. disposed of with the completion of this MR. MOSES: Just in terms of the project. But in the short term, we are background on this building and some of taking steps to make sure that they are October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 77 suitable to use and as this is a new what our approximate electricity demand project for consideration in the plan, we is of all our assets in Yellowknife? I are looking forward to moving forward know I’m asking for some details here. and getting those people into a modern Thank you. shop environment where they can CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank provide better services to our clients. you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Beaulieu. Thank you, Mr. Chair. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. MR. MOSES: Thank you for the update Chair. We do not have that information on that. Just in regards to the Capital with us here today but we can get that Asset Retrofit Program, I think it’s a information and provide it to the good program and just reading the committee. substantiation sheet, I think it’s being well served and well used and we’re CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank seeing some of the paybacks on that. you, Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. Bromley. But if you look at the shop replacements MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. for both Inuvik and Fort Simpson and Chairman. Thanks to the Minister for then you look at the one for Norman that. I didn’t expect you to have it right Wells, there’s included a wood pellet on you, so I appreciate that. boiler in Norman Wells. Why wasn’t that I don’t know the degree to which you also an option for Fort Simpson or Inuvik would have your finger on the pulse, but when building the new shops? I’m wondering what the breakdown is of MR. GUY: That’s an excellent question. our lighting in all our Yellowknife assets In Fort Simpson we have a central heat in terms of energy-efficient lighting. plant there that’s a biomass plant and Would we be able to estimate, say, have it’s adjacent to the site where this new we converted 10 percent to LEDs, and I building that’s under construction now is don’t know where there are still T12s going to be located and we plan on and T8s around or whether we’ve got connecting that to the biomass district better standards now. Something that heating system in Fort Simpson. So, would give me an idea of how far along that’s been part of the plans and we’re we’ve come so far in converting our proceeding on that basis. Yellowknife assets, lighting, to the most The Member is correct; in Norman Wells energy-efficient options. in their Capital Asset Program we are CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank putting in a wood pellet boiler there, as you, Mr. Bromley. Deputy Minister Guy. well, and we certainly will be looking at MR. GUY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Inuvik as our priority consideration as Certainly, I would say we’ve gone we get into the development of that through several cycles of upgrading project. We will likely be considering one lighting in our Yellowknife facilities. We there as well. used to have the lower efficiency CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank fluorescent lights we went through, you, deputy minister. Next on the list I when that technology was the newest have Mr. Bromley. technology, and upgraded most of them MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. to the most efficient fluorescent Would the Minister be able to estimate technology that was available in the day. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 78

In terms of the LED lighting, which we Fund. They have shown significant believe is the emerging technology, we quick paybacks and reductions in are now going back through and looking electrical consumption. Lighting control for opportunities to upgrade those systems that have outside lighting lighting packages again. So, really sensors that can dim down the lights in there’s quite a bit of work to do to go to office space and make better use of the that next level with LED lighting and natural lighting is another area where we’re starting to do that through some of we’ve done a lot of work, and we the work in this plant. continue to retrofit on that. Then, Much of our exterior lighting has been obviously, we are also seeing the converted. The floodlights and those decrease and the reduction in the cost types of fixtures that are on most of the around solar technology, so we’re night on photo cells, they have been starting to look at opportunities to use more advanced technology. They were more solar panels and solar generation some of the earlier ones that were in our projects and in our buildings. easier to put in, but now that the general MR. BROMLEY: Thanks for that good purpose lighting has become more cost- information. I guess, since you bring up effective and more reasonable we’re solar, what’s the potential for our going back now and starting the Yellowknife building assets? Do they analysis. So I think as we move forward typically have roofs that are suitable for with the Capital Asset Retrofit Program decent sized installations with respect to we are going to see many more projects the buildings demand? like that as that technology becomes MR. GUY: In the Capital Asset Retrofit more mainstream. Program we have two smaller scale CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank solar projects that we’re going to put on you, deputy minister. Mr. Bromley. government assets. They’re not in MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair, Yellowknife, but there is one on the new and thanks to the deputy minister for shop in Norman Wells which we will be that information. I’m wondering: after putting on to see how well we can lighting, considering electricity demand, integrate that technology into what is our next biggest opportunity for government buildings. We’re also doing energy efficiency improvements in one, I believe, on a health centre in Yellowknife assets. Wrigley as well. We are doing a review to see what the potential is to put solar CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank on some of our roofs in Yellowknife to you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Guy. see if we can use that space. But we MR GUY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There also have to take into account the are a number of things in the impact that those panels might have on mechanical systems, the circulation snow load or snow accumulation, the pumps, moving to variable frequency operation of air handling equipment, air drive on our air handlers and on our conditioning equipment, and other glycol pumps. Our recirculation pumps facilities that are on the roof, so there are another opportunity. We’ve got lots are some technical aspects that we of projects that we’ve completed along have to evaluate when we do that study those lines in the Capital Asset Retrofit as well as the shadow studies from October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 79 adjacent buildings. We’re starting to look business case to do it there. We looked at those opportunities, but I don’t have a at whether we could use it for charging total number yet from our staff on what the batteries in the UPSs, for example, the potential would be. and it wasn’t something that was MR. BROMLEY: Just for the feasible from a business case, but we’re Yellowknife assets, what sort of going back and re-evaluating those schedule would you require to come up options again. So I think as we look at with those estimates considering the the potential, there is still a possibility of issues that you’ve mentioned there, perhaps using a new office building speaking to the deputy minister, to have going forward as an opportunity for some sort of an idea to be able to move solar. to a program of implementation? MR. BROMLEY: Thanks again for that MR. GUY: The total number of assets information. Just the last part, do we we have in Yellowknife is not that many. now, when we build buildings, routinely I would think in the major assets we sort of consider the design of the roofing have a central warehouse out by or the exterior with the potential of solar McDonald’s; we have the Data Centre; in mind? we have the Laing Building, the new MR. GUY: That’s one of the things we’re office building, the Stuart Hodgson looking at, updating our Good Building Building and our North Slave regional Practices to have a more robust chapter office. I don’t think we have very many and prescription around those other large office spaces with roofs that requirements going forward. As I said we could potentially utilize. Most of the earlier, there are a number of projects other ones are leased space or owned here that we are embarking on through by others. I think we could complete that this plan that are going to have solar evaluation reasonably quickly, but it that weren’t originally envisioned, but as would take, I assume, several months to we go forward we will look at that, like do the engineering, the analysis and the we do with biomass, as possibly costing on it beyond that. something that we will consider on a MR. BROMLEY: One last question, mandatory basis on new infrastructure. and I appreciate this information. Was CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank the new building constructed with the you, deputy minister. Committee, we’re potential of solar on its roof in mind, and on page 74, asset management, associated with that, do we now make infrastructure investments, $14.792 sure that that’s a consideration when we million. Does committee agree? design buildings and construct SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. buildings? CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Page 76, MR. GUY: The new office building, energy, infrastructure investments, certainly, I think we did do an analysis at $295,000. the time and it didn’t seem to be feasible, but as the technology and SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. costing changes, it may be feasible. I CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Page 78, can recall back when we did the Data Technology Services Centre, Centre, we did a similar exercise and it infrastructure investments, $1.890 wasn’t feasible cost-wise. There was no million. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 80

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Return to Committee, we’re on page 31. We’ll page 73, Public Works and Services, come back to that page after we’ve total budget, infrastructure investments, concluded the department. Budget, $16.977 million. treasury and debt management, infrastructure investments, $91 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Mr. Dolynny. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Does MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. committee agree we have concluded I’d like to welcome the Minister and the Public Works and Services? department here today. This looks like SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. it’s a one item aspect or detail. This CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank looks like it’s the fibre optic link at the you, Mr. Guy and Ms. Gault. Sergeant- $91 million mark here, so this will at-Arms, please escort the witnesses. probably be our last opportunity to ask Thank you, Minister Beaulieu. questions specific to this large piece of infrastructure. It appears now that the Alright, committee, next on the order is fibre link is finished and we’re now Department of Finance. I’ll ask Mr. seeing it actually on the books, and I’m Miltenberger if he has any witnesses to assuming it will be taken care of in bring into the Chamber. public accounts in the same way. We HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: know that this originally started off Yes, Mr. Chairman. around a $65 million project, and CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): through about a year or two it did Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the escalate to the number we have today. witnesses into the Chamber. I guess my first question is to maybe if I Sorry. Is committee agreed to that? can get a broader scope. What was SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. involved with the overall cost and budget of this P3 initiative to go from a CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Mr. $65 million project to now the $91 Miltenberger, I’ll get you to introduce million that we have on the books? your witness. Thank you, Mr. Chair. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have with you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Miltenberger. me Mr. Mike Aumond, deputy minister of Finance. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The project CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank started out in its initial conceptual stages you, Minister Miltenberger. We will open with a range somewhere between 65 up to general comments for Finance. and I think it was 85 million dollars. As Department of Finance, general the estimating got finer and the numbers comments. hardened up, it moved to the higher end SOME HON. MEMBERS: Detail. of the scale. When we did certain things CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): like double the size of the cable from 24 Committee is agreed to go to detail? pair to 48 pair to give it a lot of capacity, those types of things added cost as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. But I’ll ask the deputy, Mr. Chair, with October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 81 your agreement, if he wants to add more making, I would assume, monthly detail. Thank you. payments, yearly payments to the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank proponents I would assume during a you, Minister. I’ll go to Deputy Minister period of time. Again, they may want to Aumond. qualify that. But at a point in time, once we pay this off from financing to MR. AUMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I maintenance fees to administration fees, guess there are four causes for the price what will be the final cost to this project to escalate from when we first did the at the end of its lifecycle when I believe feasibility study until we got to the we inherit this back as a full cost business case. One, as the Minister had structure owned by GNWT? Thank you. stated, you know, doubling the capacity of the fibre itself was a cost-driver, along MR. AUMOND: With respect to this P3 with the drilling costs associated with procurement, it has a total capitalized the four main river crossings that we cost of about $91 million. What we have had to deal with. done is the proponents will obviously use that asset over the concession The other thing is just the timing from period and it will drive revenue from the time we did the feasibility study to customers, of which, you know, the the time we went out to procurement, government will be one as well. But you know, just the cost of the line itself primarily it will be the Inuvik Satellite increased, generally speaking. Again, a Facility and the antennas there. What change in some of the pieces of the the government has done from a equipment from 2011 to 2014 to take budgeting perspective is looked at what advantage of some technological the revenue stream and what the growth advances that took place also caused of facility might be. What we’ll be doing an increase in the price. Thank you. is plugging that revenue gap to the tune CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank of about $8 million a year, and that will you, Mr. Aumond. Mr. Dolynny. go against the $91 million debt. As we MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. pay that down over the concession I appreciate the response. For the most period, we’ll have an asset that will still part, I think the Members on this side of be deriving revenue for the government the House were very supportive of this and providing services to the residents project. I know I have been and I’ve up and down the Mackenzie Valley. been able to see the merits in the long Unlike some other projects where you’ll term for the residents of the Northwest have high maintenance cost and will not Territories. have a revenue stream to offset the cost, this asset will drive revenue and This is a P3 project, if you will, and I will become profitable for the think we need to get an understanding government after a period of time. of what does this really mean now that Thank you. this project is finished or coming to completion and it’s now on our books. MR. DOLYNNY: Mr. Chair, So to bring it to a conceptual number we unfortunately I didn’t quite get an can understand, proponents built this for answer from that. I’m fully aware that the government, built this for the this piece of equipment will generate a taxpayer and we’re now going to be profit, and that profit will be pursuant to October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 82 the number of satellite dishes that are mandate of the project, but I was led to built in the Inuvik satellite area and how believe, as a Member here, when this much money we’re going to generate went out to tender, all river crossings per satellite. So I understand that were being looked at. What was so component. special that there was an incurred cost The question I have is that the price of due to river crossings? Was there this $91 million amortized – and again, unsuspected terrain? What was the we’re making payments to the increase of the cost for those river proponents over a period of, again I’m crossings to do the horizontal drilling? not sure of the amortization of this. I Thank you. use the word “amortization” because CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank that’s the term I’m going to use, but you, Mr. Dolynny. Deputy Minister paying back to the proponents this piece Aumond. of equipment, there is an end cost that MR. AUMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chair. will cost taxpayers. What is that end Just for clarity, all the bids that we cost minus the revenues? Thank you. received included costing for the rivers. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank The cause in price was from our you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Miltenberger. feasibility study to what the proponents HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: provided. The information, when we did Thank you, Mr. Chair. It doesn’t appear the feasibility study at the time, was that we have that information here. We’ll based on the existing geophysical have to agree to provide that to information that we have. However, the committee. proponents, as a result of the procurement process, were able to take CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Mr. on more extensive studies, more Miltenberger, I’m sure everybody is geophysical studies of the valley, and as trying to get commitment before the a result of that, the river crossings were House is done, so will that be available? more complicated and more difficult HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: than we had originally envisioned, and Yes. that was responsible for the cost CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank increase. Thank you. you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Dolynny. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. Chair, you, Mr. Aumond. Mr. Dolynny. for your wisdom. That was a question I MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. was going to ask, when we might be Is it possible that when we tendered this able to get that information. out and were seeking proponents that Earlier, and again I don’t have the even our geophysical assessments transcripts to go by, but I know the were possibly not complete? I’m just deputy minister indicated that part of the saying this because I remember some increase in the cost was due to the of the proponents who came forward crossings. There were some crossings said loud and clear that there were over some major rivers that possibly going to be some hurdles, that some of escalated the price. Was the original bid our geotechnical wasn’t exactly not including all river crossings? Again, I accurate, that this was going to cost don’t have the original scope and more, thereby making the bid of the October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 83 current proponent having a bit of an through a lot of this wire that was put in unfair advantage over what we already place. We saw the process that was knew. Then when they started the work, going to be taken at the opening but they went, “By the way, we’re going to there was a number of areas that when need more money because of the the ground melted, the wire was horizontal drilling cost. “Is it safe to say, exposed in many areas. That creates a was there a level playing field going into lot of concern for my residents, for my this that would have made this constituents. A lot of them have a proponent on the same level as every legitimate concern here. other one applying and that this was not Why wasn’t this cable put underground just a change order based on numbers where it is supposed to be covered that maybe we had in error that you properly and not exposed to the were being held to task, Mr. Chair? elements? That sort of thing needs to be Other proponents knew about this and double-checked. I know they did a yet they weren’t the successful bunch of work this summer, but now we proponent. have to fix this problem. Thank you. I guess what I’m saying is, was there a CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank level playing field, knowing what we you, Mr. Blake. Minister Miltenberger. know now, knowing what we could have done better in the so-called procurement HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: stage of a P3 proponent? Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Member is correct; there were sections of the line CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank that floated to the surface once the you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Miltenberger. ground melted. The line has been HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: checked from one end to the other and Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, there they have identified all the areas and was a level playing field. Every they have worked to ensure that the proponent had the same information cable is properly buried. Given that is and there have been no change orders. was a unique sort of process, it was Thank you. something that wasn’t anticipated but CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank has been rectified at the cost to the you, Minister. This time, Mr. Blake. contractor. There is a plan that has been put into place over the summer to do MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I that. Thank you. have just a few questions and comments. I guess with the project, it is MR. BLAKE: Just something else, really good to see this project going there are possible plans to continue this through my riding of Mackenzie Delta, a to the Yukon. I suggest the next time good portion of it. I know we had a that we do this sort of infrastructure that number of people working on the project we insulate where the cable is going to from both Fort McPherson and go so that, whether it is woodchips or Tsiigehtchic and Aklavik, also a number something along those lines, it will keep from Inuvik as well. It is really what the the ground from thawing any further. I region needed with infrastructure like am sure that is what the cause of this this. This sort of work is new to us, to was, plus with all the rain that we have our region anyway. The area had to go had in our region this summer it created a lot of landslides and it has really October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 84 increased in my riding. As I have statement on how access to this really travelled around, I have noticed this. It’s state-of-the-art technology is being just something the department can look assured and how it will be improved into for future use. Thanks. access for our residents and HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: As communities along the line. I understand we turn to look eventually at the Yukon the situation in Inuvik with the satellite lateral or the Dempster lateral into the infrastructure and so on, but I am Yukon, clearly there will be lessons wondering, are homes and residents learned from this project and we will be and families throughout the valley? applying those when that day comes as Thank you. we look at doing that shorter and more CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank easy-to-access route down into the you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger. Yukon. Thank you. HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank Thank you, Mr. Chair. Every community you. Committee, we are on page 32, will have a point of presence established budget, treasury and debt management, from the fibre optic link. Those in Deline infrastructure investments, $91 million. will be covered off by microwave towers. Mr. Bromley. The final mile piece becomes a MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. business opportunity for the community A couple of questions. I am just or for some business that wants to go in wondering: I think we are midway or there, it could be NorthwestTel. Deline, I more through this project, how are our know, has very strong leanings in residents, businesses and communities decision to trying to manage all those benefitting from this large expenditure and run all the telecommunications and for the construction of this infrastructure IT requirements in the community for in the NWT? Thank you. everybody, so that piece is the step that now happens, one step for the presence CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank there and the line goes live in the you, Mr. Bromley. Deputy minister, Mr. second quarter of 2016. Thank you. Aumond. MR. BROMLEY: I appreciate that. I am MR. AUMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chair. just wondering: how are we helping the As of August of this year, we had a total communities take advantage of that of about $10.2 million direct spend in the point of presence, I guess is what I am Beaufort-Delta and Gwich’in settlement saying. I am asking because, obviously, areas, the Sahtu Settlement Area and they don’t always have the capacity. I the Deh Cho area, and about 139 certainly would be at a loss on how to person years of work created just over take advantage of the point of presence. the winter and summer season this past It is beyond my ken. I am wondering: year. Thank you. are we helping communities to assess CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank options towards optimizing the benefits you, Mr. Aumond. Mr. Bromley. they will get that a point of presence MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I provides in each home. Thank you. am assuming there has been more HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: thinking done on this, but I am One of the partners in the partnership wondering if we could get a clear that is putting this line in is going to run October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 85 a managers course with NorthwestTel the community of Deline have their and they have all the expertise. It would thinking very clear about what they see be a logical assumption to assume that going forward with their microwave in their business case they would be connection and wanting to become the interested not only in putting the line sole provider for the community. Every down the valley but where they already independent service provider, every ISP have a presence in communities where will have the capacity to make the case. there is going to be now access to This is a business enterprise that, yes, cutting-edge fibre optic connections, communities may choose to pursue they would be there looking to, I would themselves or they would support assume, upgrade all of the communities. somebody coming in that has the skills They have already upgraded them to that’s prepared to wire or put in the fibre satellite; most of them have cell phone optic where it’s necessary and hook up connections. This would be a logical the town for the full service of the fibre service enhancement that they would optic connection. So, we believe that look at. opportunity is there. We have folks on You have other companies, like out of the ground in the regions, in the Inuvik you have Ice Wireless, for communities on the economic example, that may have interests and I development side that will be working am not sure about any other with community groups, businesses and businesses. We also have our regional centres, taking calls, and we sweetened slate of business support are standing ready to work with programs available through ITI that communities as they look at that final could possibly be tapped into if there mile piece. Thank you. was some kind of business opportunity MR. BROMLEY: Thanks to the that this community wanted to pursue, Minister. That sounds good. I wonder, such as Deline. Thank you. though, if the Minister could work with MR. BROMLEY: Thanks to the his colleague and provide us with an Minister. I intend no slur with outline of exactly how our economic NorthwestTel, but obviously they will development officers are aware of this have that possibility, that potential. This challenge for communities and helping is the proverbial captive audience. That out in helping them select the best is why I am saying it seems clear there possible options and cost benefits for is a need to provide some support to their access to this. Thank you. communities to consider and assess HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: alternatives and make sure they are We will pull something together that will able to pick out the best ones and also capture that as per the Member’s that they have some expertise to draw request. on to make sure that they’re not being I just want to point out that in my mind taken advantage of as a captive the final mile piece has always been audience in our valley communities. where the business opportunity is and Thank you. we would be there to provide support as HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: opposed to going to communities and Some communities’ thinking and getting potentially into the capacity is well along, like Inuvik. I know telecommunication business. So October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 86 between the providers that are there, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank the ISPs, the communities with us you, Ms. Bisaro. Mr. Bromley, sir. playing a support role, we want to make MR. BROMLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. sure that final mile gets implemented. I move we report progress. But we will, on that basis, pull together the information for the Member in the life ---Defeated of this Assembly. Thank you. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): I’ll just MR. BROMLEY: Thank you. I have no confirm with Mr. Beaulieu if you have more questions. I have no problems with witnesses and they’re prepared to come the briefing laid out by the Minister there into the Chamber. and I’ll look forward to that information. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. Mahsi. Chairman, I do. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Committee, we’re on you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort in page 32, budget, treasury and debt the witnesses. management, infrastructure Committee, we’re on page 81, investments, $91 million. Department of Transportation. I’ll go to SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. general comments on the Department of CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Agreed. Transportation. General comments. Mr. Page 35, Office of the Comptroller Blake. General, infrastructure investments, MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’m $1.325 million. really glad to see, as I mentioned, the SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Building Canada Plan underway once again. I am a little disappointed it wasn’t CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): We’ll go in place for last season, but here we are back to page 31, Department of today, the first year that this funding is Finance, total infrastructure starting up again. Lots has been done, investments, $92.325 million. about three-quarters completed, and SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. hopefully we have time, if the weather CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): cooperates, that this gets finished and Committee is agreed we’re concluded we have a parking garage upgrades in the Department of Finance? Aklavik. Hopefully, we can have this done as soon as possible. Within the SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. month would be great. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank ---Laughter you, Mr. Aumond. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witness out of the But also under Willow River, as I Chamber. Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. mentioned before, it’s really important I’ll go to Ms. Bisaro. that the department identifies some funds to put this bridge in place. The MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. contractors didn’t feel it would cost $2 Next in line is Health and Social million, but that price has come from the Services. We would like to leave Health department under their assessment as and go to the Department of to installing, drilling the pilings, which Transportation. shouldn’t be very much to put this bridge October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 87 in place. But with the help from the to install a bridge. We don’t have the department and funding, I hope this money in the Access Program. As I bridge can be put in place this winter, indicated in the House, if we intend to otherwise it will be just sitting on the continue to finish this road and put the land as a possible injury that can bridge in, then we would probably have happen with people travelling out on the to do it under regular capital where this land in the winter not seeing this if it’s actual project would be viewed as larger not flagged properly. We don’t want any capital but just a slight issue with that. accidents happening. As we know, the system is if we’re going Also, the Louis Cardinal hull upgrade, to spend some serious infrastructure many of my constituents want to know money, it’s usually on our infrastructure when we are due for a new ferry. This contribution agreement, usually a lot ferry is well over 25, 30 years old now less and it’s not an asset that we retain. and it’s pretty clear it’s time for an The Louis Cardinal Ferry is due for an upgrade. I’m sure with today’s upgrade, as the Member indicates. I’m technology there’s a far better way to just checking to see if this ferry is provide this service. scheduled for replacement. My feeling With that, those are my general is that it isn’t, that we wouldn’t be comments. Thank you. spending money on it to extend, we’d only be spending money on it to extend CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank the life for a little while until we did find you, Mr. Blake. I’ll go to Minister some capital dollars or replace it with Beaulieu. another asset that we already have. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. Currently, we have money in for this Chairman. The parking garage upgrade year and this coming summer and we is scheduled to begin this year. There will be coating the hull of the ferry and was some work done on the upgrade. that’s what we have in front of us today. Some of the money was spent on the Thank you, Mr. Chairman. parking upgrade. MR. BLAKE: It sounds like we have a The Willow River Bridge is part of the possible supplementary coming about Access Roads Program. The Access here with the Willow River Bridge. I’m Roads Program, as committee knows, is just kidding. a program where there is just a little The only other comment I wanted to over $1 million and sometimes a little make was I’m really happy to see we’re under $1 million spent in the program starting to do some brushing along the each year. So what we try to do with highway that’s with the Building Canada some of the projects is we try to support Plan funding, I believe. Some has been some of the programs in a larger way. done just as you leave Inuvik to the This is one of the programs that we tried airport, roughly 20 kilometres underway to support and we knew going in that it at the moment from Tsiigehtchic, 20 would be a substantial cost to put the miles north towards Inuvik. This bridge in. brushing is beginning here, which is There may be another way to do it great. Anywhere else you travel in the where it would be less of a cost, but we country, whether it’s leaving here from knew it would be a fairly substantial cost Yellowknife, you have almost 20 metres October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 88 on each side cleared for your visibility. capital projects, especially in ’16-17, so This isn’t the case up along the I’d like to ask the Minister: how is the Dempster Highway, but I’m glad to see department and how is this government that this work is finally beginning. Very going to handle the potential claim, important because a lot of times we should it be accepted, especially when have some near misses. People almost we’re talking about capital items and hit moose or caribou and it’s… transportation in ’16-17? You know, as Mr. Chair, is there a problem? As I said, MLAs we all fought pretty hard to take it’s bad to see, you know a couple of care of our constituency needs and I times, as I mentioned, people almost hit would say, for example, Highway No. 7. moose and caribou. You know, as we Just how would it impact, of that start with this brushing, my residents are magnitude of $32 million, our future very happy with it. In the years to come, capital expenses as planned in this I can’t wait to see the project completed House, Mr. Chair? Thank you. all through the Dempster. Thank you, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank Mr. Chair. you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Beaulieu. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The brushing HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, is something that we are doing under Mr. Chairman. The amount of capital in the separate contract from the Building the Inuvik to Tuk Highway Project has Canada Plan. The Building Canada not changed and we’re proceeding with Plan will be the reconstruction of the the capital that we’re requesting. If Dempster Highway, Highway No. 8, and there is a claims process, we would be the brushing is the separate contract. going through a regular claims process We are trying to do it every couple of and at that point where we are going years if possible. There’s a lot of through the regular claims process and highway to be brushed and I’m noticing at this point we don’t know if there’s that most of the highways now are going to be a requirement for us to getting some brushing done. For safety request any money at all to continue the reasons we want to continue to do, right Inuvik-Tuk Highway. It’s too early in the away, brushing as much as possible. process to determine whether that’s Thank you. needed but, Mr. Chairman, I understand CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank my support staff, from the deputy you, Minister Beaulieu. Committee, minister, will be arriving here in 10 we’re on general comments for minutes. Thank you. Transportation. General comments. Mr. MR. MENICOCHE: Well, all the more Menicoche. reason for the Minister to make a MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very commitment that he won’t move any much, Mr. Chair. I do have other issues money from our future capital. Like I that I’ll address in the detail, but just said, that’s a concern of mine and we all overall this has been a significant week, work hard as an Assembly, Members on beginning last week with the potential this side of the House with Cabinet, and claims of the Inuvik-Tuk Highway there. a couple of weeks ago when we went My initial concern and my original through the capital budget, we’ve come concern was about should the claims be here, we’ve got a fairly good plan that successful about taking away from other everybody’s agreeable with, but the October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 89 impact of $32 million I just sure don’t know, worst case scenario. The hope is, want to see it being amended or as Minister Beaulieu has indicated, that changed because there is a successful at the end of the day we may sort this claim there. out and handle it with the existing I’d just like to ask the Minister one more budget, and we will keep Members time what are his thoughts about that apprised of that, but it won’t negatively movement forward. We try to get affect constituencies and other assurance in this House that nothing will communities. be done throughout the election period, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank so I’d just like to ask the Minister what you, Minister Miltenberger. We’ll just are his thoughts about how long will a take a five minute break. Ms. Bisaro. claims process take, commit not to do Sorry. anything during the election period. MS. BISARO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I Thank you. move that we report progress. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank ---Defeated you, Mr. Menicoche. Excuse me. Just in the interest of getting the proper answer, CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): We’ll we’ll take a 10-minute break until the carry on after a five-minute break. support staff get here. Thank you very ---SHORT RECESS much. Sorry, Mr. Miltenberger. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: Committee, we’ll resume general Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Two things: comments on the Department of that the commitment has already been Transportation. made as the claim process runs its We’re on page 81. We’ll come back to course that we would be keeping this page after we’re concluded the committee and Members apprised of department. Page 82, Department of that. Transportation, airports, infrastructure In regards to the concern of the Member investments, $1.201 million. Mr. Moses. for Nahendeh, whatever comes out of MR. MOSES: Just on page 82 and that will negatively impact the next talking about the airports, I know it is on budget. Clearly, we’re going to agree to the list and it’s something that I’ve this budget. We’re going to go ahead brought up during general comments with that and the incoming Assembly will when we got started with the pick up all the pieces for everything, infrastructure process. I just wanted to look at all the challenges. But this ask the Minister, when do we expect to project and whatever comes out of that have an update on the work that’s being claims process will not be tacked on to done for the runway, the survey work the capital plan where all of a sudden and all that information? When can we we have to carve away projects. It will expect to get a report on that and make be part of the broad consideration as we a decision? Also, just with the airport, as do our business as an Assembly, those well, I know it is on the books to be of us who are going to be back here. replaced, the airport facility, and I’m just This is just to give the assurance to the wondering what the plans are for that as Member that it’s not automatically $30 well. million off the next capital budget. You October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 90

CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank possibility that we would handle the you, Mr. Moses. Minister Beaulieu. larger jets in Inuvik. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. MR. MOSES: With that work that they’re Chairman. We’re just getting some doing with DND, is a report expected to detail. I’ll ask the deputy to respond to come to the House or whether or not the the question. GNWT would have to cover any costs CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank that might be associated with it, federal, you. Deputy Minister Neudorf. like a joint partnership? I know we are doing a lot of, I guess, sovereignty work MR. NEUDORF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. and a lot of exercises. We had a big We have funding to repair the dip at the exercise this year with the military, and Inuvik Airport runway. We’ve done two I’m just wondering if the GNWT would temporary repairs on it as we continue also be committing any type of to gather additional technical infrastructure dollars to that and if the information. This fall we did gather some report will be coming to this House as more of that and we’re going to analyze well. that this winter and come up with what we hope will be a permanent repair this HON. TOM BEAULIEU: So far we have coming summer. Next summer we do come to the House for money for the plan to carry over, or ask the money to studies and we are continuing at a pace be reinstated next year to complete that of DND. We don’t know when there may dip. be a report as a result of our studies or a plan as a result of the studies, but In terms of the air terminal building, that when one is developed, when we do is in the capital planning process. We write a report or a plan on the extension are starting a planning study for the air of the airport, we will come back to the terminal building replacement project House with the plan. this year. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank you, Minister Beaulieu. Committee, we you, deputy minister. Mr. Moses. are on page 82, airports, infrastructure MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. investments, $1.251 million. Mr. Chairman. Just further, in terms of the Dolynny. facility itself and the runway, has there MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I been any discussion on lengthening that notice on here we have a product listing runway so that it can actually service called runway stabilization. It talks about bigger jets? I know Whitehorse has that a special liquid blend we are going to be opportunity to bring in international applying to runways. Can we get a little flights and with the Inuvik-Tuk Highway bit of information about what is EK-35 coming on board, are there any liquid application? Thank you. discussions on lengthening that runway at the Inuvik Airport? CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Beaulieu. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank you, Mr. Moses. Minister Beaulieu. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. Chair. EK-35 is on the small runways, HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. gravel runways. It is a non-corrosive Chairman. The department is working product that also covers the surface and with DND doing some studies for that October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 91 does prevent dirt from flying up into the Will the department commit to providing air as well. It is essentially a product that committee some background in terms of they use for the airports so that there is the ecological and environmental safety dust abatement on the strips, all the of this product? Thank you. gravel strips. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: We are MR. DOLYNNY: I know that the prepared to do that. department in the past has used MR. DOLYNNY: I notice also on here products call Trembind. I know they ran we have a new airport sweeper, into problems with it as a dust control obviously for the Yellowknife Airport. I suppressant and it had some just notice that, not knowing the environmental impacts. Has this EK-35 breakdown, I don’t want to run the met all standards we have for any type competitiveness of any type of bid, what of environmental assessment that it type of valuation do these airport would not affect or harm any of our sweepers have in terms of replacement wildlife in the communities? Thank you. for new? I guess, what is the range of HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The product is new pricing we may be looking at for approved by Boeing and it doesn’t this new sweeper? Thank you. corrode the aircraft. It is a good product HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Our current and there should be no problem with it. sweeper is 19 years old. We have The other product was used a long time budgeted $250,000 to replace that ago and we no longer use it. sweeper. MR. DOLYNNY: Is it safe to say that if I MR. DOLYNNY: The old sweeper that was to look up EK-35 online as a is going to be replaced, does it have any synthetic organic dust control product, it value? Is it going to be re-profiled and would have no problems whatsoever used elsewhere in our airport fleet? passing any type of health concerns? Thank you. Thank you. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: It is possible HON. TOM BEAULIEU: There is no that it has some value. It will likely be indication there are any health concerns surplused. If there is some value, it on the application of EK-35 on our could possibly be moved for use on a runways. smaller strip. MR. DOLYNNY: I would caution the MR. DOLYNNY: So, it is safe to say department, if they can provide the that we don’t know if it has any residual committee any of the facts surrounding value that we are going to be surplusing the safety of the synthetic organic and selling it, or are we able to bring it material called EK-35, my quick up to another airport or maybe use it as research does show that there has been a backup? It sounds like a pretty some environmental ecological expensive piece of machinery. I don’t problems with the product in certain think these units… Maybe age might be jurisdictions, so I would be inclined to an issue. I don’t think these units see a make sure that we are doing our due lot of traction time. Again, I am just diligence before we start applying this trying to see how, again, repurposing on all of our highways and our airports. these very expensive pieces of October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 92 equipment that have very low hours. repetitive issue with that runway? Thank Thank you. you. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: It was deemed HON. TOM BEAULIEU: There is a that it was not efficient to continue to run recurring issue for repairing dips on Hay the sweeper. We go through the River Airport every five years. We are Department of Public Works and thinking that this is a solution to resolve Services, we go through the regular it and end the issue. disposal process with the sweeper. MR. DOLYNNY: So, if we are doing MR. DOLYNNY: So, what is the normal this every so many years, I am disposal process? assuming this could become a HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Like all of the problematic issue. So we are thinking other assets, we would see if the other that by just repairing the drainage that departments had any use for the asset. we are going to avoid the so-called dips If none of the other departments had a and valleys of this runway. Are there no use for the asset, the asset could be alternative solutions other than offered to other organizations, non-profit drainage? Is it because it needs to be organizations or other community built up? Does it need a geotextile governments. With no use there, then it fabric? Do we need to use another would probably be sold in an auction or aggregate coating for this runway? Is sold and shipped down to wherever it this just a piecemeal or bandage was purchased. approach? Is this a permanent fix? Thank you. MR. DOLYNNY: I know it is another descriptor here in terms of product HON. TOM BEAULIEU: We believe it listing, runway drainage improvement in is a drainage problem. At one point we Hay River. Can you maybe give me an were looking at the possibility that it may update here, what is the scope of this be a permafrost issue, but we have project and why the need for it? Thank determined that it is a drainage problem you. and we’re convinced that this fix here is going to resolve the issue for at least 20 HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Studies in years, as I indicated. 2014 suggested there is a subsurface drainage problem that leads to ongoing MR. DOLYNNY: We know this runway repairs of the Hay River runway. is roughly 1,830 metres in length. If Replacement and extending the we’re going to be doing this drainage underground drainage system adjacent program, which I think it sounds like a and parallel to both sides of the runway fairly large undertaking, is there any provide enhanced protection to the consideration of actually increasing the runway and adjacent infrastructure. The length of this runway to maybe allow for drainage system is expected to last 20 larger planes to land in Hay River? years. Thank you. MR. DOLYNNY: Is this a repeat HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Mr. Chairman, problem that we are having in Hay River we have no plans to extend the runway or is this a one-time event? I am just in Hay River. Most of the aircraft that are trying to get the scope. Has this been a landing there are much smaller than what the airport can handle. You can October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 93 land 737s at the Hay River Airport, so thing with regard to the Trout Lake there is no plan to extend that airport Airport. Thank you, Mr. Chair. runway at this time. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The tenders CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank on that have closed. We’re going to you, Mr. Beaulieu. Next on the list I have award soon. It’s going in on the winter Mr. Menicoche. road and we’re going to do the MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very construction as soon as possible after much, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to direct that. your attention to Trout Lake. I know that MR. MENICOCHE: Just with the much people are very happy with a much larger airport, the Minister was in Trout longer runway, but I think there was Lake and one of the needs is a snow some remedial work that was done to blower as opposed to using the graders. the slumpage in the springtime, so That’s one of the requests, is to move maybe the Minister could comment on it. towards a snow blower for the I don’t see any capital for ’16-17. Does community of Trout Lake for their much that mean that the airport settled just larger airport. They really feel that they’ll great and we’ll have many years of maintain the airport a lot better with a operational life of the current airport? snow blower. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’d just like to ask, is it on any short-term CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank plan for the community of Trout Lake? you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Beaulieu. Thank you, Mr. Chair. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Mr. Chairman, Chairman. New airports, new last winter we had provided construction comes with some issues maintenance at the airport with a grader. that we usually sort out in the first We’re going to continue that this coming couple of years. There is nothing that winter. We thought that it performed we’re anticipating that can’t be handled well. Snow blowers are an expensive with the equipment that is there, with the piece of machinery, difficult to maintain grader. We know that we didn’t have the and difficult to operate. So, we’re going money immediately to build the airport to continue with this and see how it terminal building, but we now have the performs, and then we’ll evaluate. We money and we’ll be proceeding with the don’t have a snow blower scheduled for construction of the ATB. Trout Lake, but we will continue to use MR. MENICOCHE: So, just in terms of equipment we have and continue to integrity of the new airport, it sounds like evaluate. it all settled out. Certainly residents are MR. MENICOCHE: Yes, I certainly very happy to see the new airport realize the cost of a brand new snow terminal building was certainly in the blower, but I think there may be other bidding process and look forward to the ones in the Department of construction to protect the travelling Transportation in other communities or public during the upcoming winter other regions that could be perhaps months. Maybe the Minister can let me repurposed to the community of Trout know when that’s slated for completion. Lake. So I would just ask the Minister to Just with that, then I have one other keep that in mind as they evaluate their October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 94 equipment and the equipment needs. I have a mix of both types of did speak in the House about it before procurement. and I thought there was a solution of an MR. DOLYNNY: That’s great to know older, not very old, but an older snow that here, so why don’t I just ask one at blower in another community that could a time here. Highway No. 1 have been purposed over to Trout Lake. reconstruction, negotiated or RFP? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Mr. Chairman, HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Highway No. we will continue to monitor the airport 1, negotiated; Highway No. 6, with what we have, and it may come to negotiated; half of Highway No. 8, a point if we are unable to maintain the negotiated. airport with what we have, we may have to bring something else in. At this point I MR. DOLYNNY: I appreciate that. I can commit to monitoring it and making also see Highway No. 3 and Highway sure that we’re in touch with the No. 7, if I can get an update as well. community, and if the community keeps HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Highway No. advising us that things are running okay, 3, Highway No. 4, Highway No. 7 are all then we’ll leave it as is. If it becomes an tendered. issue, then we’ll have to deal with it. MR. DOLYNNY: I appreciate the fact CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank that we are doing a mix of tendered and you, Mr. Beaulieu. Committee, we’re on RFP’d road construction. I know the page 82, airports, infrastructure contractors out there will be much investments, $1.201 million. appreciative. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Would we anticipate, should this capital CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Agreed. estimates get approved, that this is Page 84, highways, infrastructure construction for the upcoming winter investments, $69.340 million. Mr. season, or is this spring construction for Dolynny. most of these roads? Thank you. MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: This is a I guess first and foremost there is a budget to start on April 1, 2016. So we’ll number of highway projects here today be doing the majority of the construction listed in front of us here, which is good for this budget in the summer of 2016. to see. I guess to bring it to a specific MR. DOLYNNY: So, we’re doing the question here, all of the construction budgeting after April 1, 2016, or are we projects that are listed on the project doing the budgeting during the winter listing, are those RFP projects or are months? Can I get clarification on that? those negotiated contract projects? Thank you. Thank you. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: We’re in the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank process now of going through the you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Beaulieu. infrastructure capital. If and when this HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. budget gets approved, this process then Chairman. Some of the projects are is for the 2016-17 construction season. negotiated and some are tendered. We So the majority of the construction will October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 95 occur in the summer of 2016, or next MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you very much. summer. So, it appears that we’ve got about $30 MR. DOLYNNY: I also know that the million that is part of this a little over $69 road that’s on here, which I’ll assume million that’s going to be attributed to has a large component of budget that one project, which is part of that associated, is the Inuvik-Tuk all-weather succession of multiple years in the highway. Again, we don’t have a making here. We know that this project breakdown here. We have a full number was accelerated last year through both of $69.340 million. What percentage of regular process as well as this capital estimate is attributed to the supplementary process. What part of Inuvik-Tuk Highway all-weather road in those monies in the past years of both this capital estimate? regular appropriation as well as supplementary appropriation is still HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you. I sitting in stasis? That is that we’ve would say 42 percent. actually appropriated money in a bill. MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you very much. This money was given to this I don’t have my calculator handy. What department to manage. We got so many is that in the dollar figure of this budget? kilometres done. We apply for funding Thank you. from the federal government and then HON. TOM BEAULIEU: I know that we get matching contributions. How we’ve been through the process, the much money is so-called left in a cash flow with the Inuvik-Tuk Highway; reserve that has not been used from the we have $30 million in the cash flow. previous appropriations? Thank you. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: For the carry- over numbers, that’s one I’d like to ask the deputy to provide the information. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank you, Minister Beaulieu. Deputy Minister Neudorf. MR. NEUDORF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. We carried over about $4.5 million from last fiscal year into the current one. That’s added to the budget that was voted and approved last October. It was $90 million and then we have $30 million next fiscal year and then $4 million in ’17-18 to finish up the project. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank you, Deputy Minister Neudorf. Mr. Dolynny. MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you. So, it’s safe to say that we’ve got $4 million of residual or reserve from last year not spent, potentially $30 million that could October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 96 be appropriated this year. So for a total MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you. One final of $34 million, is that what we’ll see for question. Are we safe to assume that this fiscal construction season coming the contractor is in a so-called “ready, up, or will committee be seeing any type go” position for this upcoming winter of supplementary to accelerate this season, that we have all the trucks in quicker? Is that going to be enough place, all the people, their employees in money to fulfill the obligation of the place? This $30 million that is contractor to meet obligations on a appropriated today in conjunction with construction timetable? Thank you. the $4 million reserve last year, is it CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank going to be sufficient to say that we you, Mr. Dolynny. Mr. Beaulieu. should have a pretty good completed project at the end of this construction HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. season? Thank you. Chairman. We do feel that there is enough money to finish the highway. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: I just have to clear something up here, $4.5 million MR. DOLYNNY: We also know that, I carried over at the end of the last fiscal believe, there was a contingency year. We had $90 million appropriated reserve fund put aside within this for this fiscal year that we’re in and project. I can’t remember the exact that’s a factor as well. We’re, in this number, but I believe it was around $5 fiscal year, spending the money right million. Has any of that contingency now. So I just don’t want to leave that money been used, and if so, how much out completely and we didn’t just go and for what and is there any from $4.5 and then jump to the $30 anticipation that that contingency fund million that we’re trying to get now into might be used in this upcoming the House, but there’s the advance, as construction season? Thank you. the Members know, so that last year’s HON. TOM BEAULIEU: I can tell you budget was, or this current year’s that it was around $200,000, but I don’t budget was $90 million. have the details of what it was spent on. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank We’re not scheduled to use the you, Minister Beaulieu. Next on my list I contingency fund in this construction have Mr. Moses. season that we’re now getting some appropriation for. MR. MOSES: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just following up specifically on Highway No. 8. It’s really interesting here about the half negotiated contract with that one, but just in terms of the amount of rainfall and the amount of work that’s gone into the work that was done on the highway, is there any extra dollars that would be going into the construction and the surfacing and resurfacing and continued maintenance on the highway, considering the amount of rainfall that we had and the damage that it’s done on the highways? October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 97

CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank a lot sooner and you get a lot of people you, Mr. Moses. Mr. Beaulieu. stuck in either Eagle Plains or trying to HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. go back and you look at the food issue Chairman. I’m going to ask the deputy to and supplies. So I was just wondering if respond to that. that was something that we’ve seen over the year, whether or not there CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank might be some type of mobile you, Minister Beaulieu. Deputy Minister equipment, either purchase more in Fort Neudorf. McPherson or Inuvik to keep that MR. NEUDORF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. highway open, so when the highway We had $4.5 million in capital this year. does close due to weather and snow We negotiated about 50 percent of that buildup that we have equipment on with the Gwich’in company and we there working right away in different tendered the other 50 percent. The sections so we can get traffic moving a Gwich’in companies are usually quite lot sooner than later. Thank you, Mr. competitive in bidding on that work as Chair. well. The tendered portion of the work CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank did get done this year. The negotiated you, Mr. Moses. Mr. Beaulieu. portion was a little late in starting, so probably won’t get it all done. They ran HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. into some wet weather and bad Chairman. We do have equipment conditions at the end of the year. So if strategically placed at James Creek, there’s any money left over or work left McPherson and we’re trying to, when over then we’ll carry over that funding, there’s bad weather and the highway’s or we’ll ask the House to carry it over I blowing, get it open as quickly as guess. possible. We’re not thinking that adding more pieces of equipment will keep the In terms of the O and M on the road, we road open. Often the road is closed on have sufficient O and M money to take the Yukon side. So we don’t think it’s care of the road in all kinds of weather really a lack of equipment, rather just conditions. Thank you. conditions of weather on the Dempster. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank MR. MOSES: One question the you, deputy minister. Mr. Moses. Minister made reference to is on the MR. MOSES: Thank you. Just Yukon side. I know we’ve put a lot of continuing on with that, I see there is a resources into our highways and lot of highways mobile equipment that’s obviously referenced here in the being purchased this year and when you infrastructure budget. I know the look at the substantiation sheet there in question came up earlier in this a few places here, I see Fort McPherson government, whether or not our Minister is getting a loader. I was just kind of speaks directly with the Yukon wondering, because over the wintertime government to see what kind of and due to the weather, sometimes that investments they’re doing to upkeep section of highway gets closed for the their side of the Dempster Highway. In amount of days and lack of equipment the summertime it can get really bad in sometimes results in prolonged closures certain sections and then, as you of the road and not being able to open it mentioned, we do a good job to try and October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 98 open up the highway in the wintertime. to the Yukon to say people are going to On the Yukon side, are they putting in be driving through your jurisdiction, you as much effort as I think they should, guys should put some dollars into the and whether or not the Minister will infrastructure as well. I don’t think we make a commitment to speak to his should be waiting for an opportunity. It’s counterpart to try to get those something we should be initiating, investments in place for a better road? considering the big infrastructure project We really promote tourism and now the we have going right now. Can I just get Inuvik-Tuk Highway is going to be a commitment or a response? Thank opening up. We want to have a safe you, Mr. Chair. driving road so that they’re not turning HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Again, the around at Eagle Plains and not deputies have been in touch and have continuing on. Thank you, Mr. Chair. had many discussions about that HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Our regional highway. I will commit to calling the people are in contact with the regional Yukon Transportation or Highways people from Yukon on a regular basis. I Minister and have that discussion. have not, as Minister, had the Minister- CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank to-Minister discussions about the you, Minister Beaulieu. Next on my list I Dempster. If there was an opportunity to have Mr. Menicoche. do so in the future, certainly I would take the opportunity to discuss the Dempster MR. MENICOCHE: Highway No. 7, Mr. Highway with the Yukon Minister. I will Chair. I’m pleased with the resources get some information from the available for our Highway No. 7 department. I know that not only the reconstruction. Perhaps I can just ask regions but I think at a higher level the the Minister about the current plans for departments have communicated. If an ’16-17 for the amount of money that’s opportunity arises where we need to resourced for next year. discuss the Dempster, I will certainly CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank take that opportunity. you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Beaulieu. MR. MOSES: I don’t think we should be HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. waiting for an opportunity to have those Chairman. The work for 2016 will be discussions. I think that we’ve got a embankment improvements from highway that we’re putting millions, kilometre 20 to 23, and following hundreds of millions of dollars into and aggregate production, widening, you want to give people, when they start strengthening and surface prep, seeing that, they want to come up and drainage improvements from that same go to the Arctic Ocean and I think as spot, 20 to 23, and then we’ll be doing Minister and leader for infrastructure of some crushing and aggregate highways we shouldn’t wait for an production in a pit at kilometre 3, so I opportunity, we should take the initiative guess it’s at the very beginning of the and start those discussions. If we’re highway. I’d like to ask if I could have going to be opening up coast to coast to the deputy add to what I’m saying for coast, people are going to have to drive the work that will be going on on through the Yukon to get up to Tuk and Highway No. 7. that should be a selling factor right there October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 99

CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. you, Minister Beaulieu. Deputy Minister Chairman. For a more detailed response Neudorf. I’d like to ask the deputy to respond to MR. NEUDORF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. the Member. Just to add that we would adjust the CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank work as required. So, for example, if it’s you, Minister Beaulieu. Deputy Minister a wet spring, if we knew it was a certain Neudorf. section that is soft needs to be repaired, MR. NEUDORF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. then we will adjust the scope of work to We do have money underneath the take care of those problems. Thank Build Canada Plan for the next four you. years, starting this year, to reconstruct CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank Highway No. 1. Most of the money will you, deputy minister. Committee, I’d be spent between Fort Providence just remind you that we can’t really junction and Checkpoint. We have a discuss some of the detailed numbers. If program right now to reconstruct and we’re looking for general information, chipseal the section from Jean Marie that’s fine, but if we’re looking for River access to Checkpoint. Of course, detailed numbers for competitive a portion of that’s done already, up to reasons and bidding process, we need kilometre 395. But with the funding to keep it to the general for the capital available in the next three or four years, budget here. Mr. Menicoche. we hope to get that all reconstructed MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very and chipsealed and then we’ll move to much, Mr. Chair. Just in terms of Fort Providence and carry on with highways, culverts, bridges and chipseal reconstructing and improving the stretch overlay project, I know that one of the of chipseal that’s there right now. priorities of my communities is we’re The Member will know that we’re having excited to see the ongoing development a hard time with keeping chipseal on of chipseal between Providence junction this stretch of road there. The base of and towards Simpson and we’ve still got the road isn’t strong enough, so we do quite a bit of a ways to go yet. I’d just have to go in and strengthen that, and like to see what the department’s plans then as we do that we’ll put chipseal on are for continuing chipsealing between it again. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Providence junction and Checkpoint. I CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank know that we repaired some of that you, Deputy Minister Neudorf. Mr. chipseal, I think it was 18 kilometres Menicoche. from Providence junction towards Fort Simpson, and there’s still another 18 MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very kilometres of chipseal that should be much, Mr. Chairman. Just with the saved. I would like to ask the Minister if resources available for Highway No. 1, they’re going to address that as well. of course it includes the section Thank you, Mr. Chair. between Fort Simpson and Wrigley, and most particularly, from the N’Dulee ferry CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank towards the Willow River Bridge, that you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Beaulieu. particular section never really recovered from all the trucks that were on that road October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 100 when they were doing the Enbridge may have been on that one when they Pipeline’s recovery operations. I drove it were rehabbing that one. They’ll be a couple times this fall already and it doing more work similar to that bridge really needs some work. I know that that we had crossed. We’ll be doing there was some planned work for this work on those two bridges. I don’t know fall. I’m not too sure what was done, and exactly where they are, but I just have I know that I’ve seen the engineers on the kilometres. I suppose you know that road inspecting it, so I just wanted Shale Creek and Smith Creek is where to know if some of his recommendations we will be rehabbing the bridges. and, of course, the concerns of the MR. MENICOCHE: I think the Minister Wrigley residents is how much work will was talking about some of the bridges be done on that section of the highway. on the winter road section which kind of CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank leads towards the Mackenzie Valley you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Beaulieu. Highway Project to the north of Wrigley. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. I know that when the Minister came with Chairman. The section of highway me and we spoke with the Wrigley between Fort Simpson and Wrigley we delegation, that was one of their asks, are going to continue to maintain with was can we start doing a small, mini using our maintenance money. That is a program of highway development past very low volume highway as far as the community of Wrigley, in terms of vehicles and that go and we’re not piecemealing the eventuality of a planning on putting a lot of capital or any Mackenzie Valley Highway up the capital at this time onto that highway. Mackenzie Valley. Just with those We’re trying to concentrate our capital thoughts, any work that has been done on the highways that have higher traffic by the department with respect to that volumes. At this point, we’re going to do other than the geotech work that was the best we can with the maintenance done. budget to try to maintain that road in the HON. TOM BEAULIEU: That would be best driving condition that we can a great piece of work and a great maintain it to. project, no question about it. It would be MR. MENICOCHE: I know that in the a big part of the Mackenzie Valley past few years that the highway Highway if that was to be built. The between Fort Simpson and Wrigley community had a very, very good plan. there was investment in replacing They are in support of the Mackenzie culverts and almost like mini-bridges, so Valley highway and it was important for I’ll just ask one more time if there are them to get to the first gravel access. any plans for replacing any more They had indicated to us that it was culverts towards Wrigley. about 30 kilometres of fairly flat territory that was good ground except for two HON. TOM BEAULIEU: In the capital short areas, two small spots, actually, as that is one area that we are working they put it on the road where they where we are working on Shale Creek thought there were some swamps. Bridge. We’re sealing the deck and Aside from that, they thought it was a doing some bearing repairs on the deck, very easy project to do, and we would and then we’re also rehabbing the support that type of a project as part of timber on the deck of Smith Creek. We October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 101 the Mackenzie Valley highway. It’s right Providence. Is that my understanding? on the Mackenzie Valley right-of-way, Or south of that? and that’s something we’d love to work HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The kilometre towards with the community on the Deh 0 is at the highway that turns off Fort Cho part of the Mackenzie Valley Simpson on the other side of the Deh highway. Cho Bridge, and Providence is about 31 CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank kilometres, and then Yellowknife is at you, Mr. Beaulieu. Committee, we’re on 339, and Behchoko 245. This is some of page 84, highways, infrastructure the highway where we had the speed at investments, $69.340 million. Mr. 90 between here and Behchoko. We’re Dolynny. fixing areas there that are troublesome. MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank This will probably be my last opportunity you, Minister Beaulieu. Yes, Behchoko to talk about Highway No. 3. I know Mr. is at 245. Mr. Dolynny. Menicoche thought I was going to say MR. DOLYNNY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Highway No. 7 but, sorry. Highway No. Thank you for your wisdom there. Thank 3. We know this is a multi-year project. I you very much. I guess when we’re believe this is part of a bundle that was talking about sections of the road, I think being funded here through one of the it’s important for us to make sure that Building Canada Plan projects. But to we’re describing the right sections. get a bit more perspective, what should People looking back at transcripts are we expect? What is the budget in terms trying to figure out what exactly does of the completion? Is there a certain this mean. I think anyone would not target on Highway No. 3 that we’re disagree that the 100 kilometre stretch going to try to complete for this capital between here and Behchoko is probably budget? one of the most difficult sections of CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank highway probably in the Northwest you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Beaulieu. Territories and probably one of the most HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. well-travelled ones in the Northwest Chairman. We’re scheduled for this Territories, so any improvements in that budget embankment improvements, 100 kilometre stretch would definitely be kilometre 275 to 278, from 279 to 280, an improvement. I know the Member for involving straightening and surface prep; Monfwi is probably agreeing with me. drainage improvements and install We heard about a multi-year culverts at kilometre 275, 276, 277, 279, investment, and again, we’re doing and 279.6; crushing aggregate sections at a time in terms of production at kilometre 285; chipseal improvements, embankment kilometre 275 to 278 and 279 to 280. improvements and drainage MR. DOLYNNY: I appreciate the details improvements, but I think the public there. When I’m hearing kilometre 275 really needs to know at what point in to 278 and so forth, I’m assuming these time can we safely say that that stretch are the kilometres between here and of road between Yellowknife and Behchoko. I believe we’re starting from Behchoko would be completely redone, kilometre 0, which I believe is Fort resurfaced and, as I like to put it, as smooth as we can. Thank you. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 102

HON. TOM BEAULIEU: This is part of are not going to be working on that, but bundle number one, the first four years with the four-year money we will be of reconstruction on Highway No. 3. The doing about 20 kilometres total where plans that I talked about just previously we will be taking the dips, only in was this fiscal year and also in bundle Highway No. 3, out. Also, each year we three it closes the gap and it finishes off also have maintenance and we do the rest of the bundle and this would regular maintenance on that road. So as mean that there would be six more we reconstruct with the Building Canada years of this type of construction on Plan money, we are also maintaining Highway No. 3 between here and those sections, as well, so the rest of Behchoko. the 100 kilometres to make sure that it MR. DOLYNNY: I will have to decipher remains a good surface that we are that coded message. I guess the going to bring to these areas to a state question I have is within the four-year that we are bringing these areas to. bundle cycle that we hear, so from Thank you. kilometre 245 to kilometre 339, would MR. DOLYNNY: I appreciate the we assume that between those two Minister sharing those numbers, and numbers that the complete stretch will thanks for the information. No further be resurfaced and reconditioned and questions. Thank you. rehabilitated to a road that is not what CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank we see today? Thank you. you, Mr. Dolynny. Next I have Mr. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: We will not be Hawkins. able to do the entire highway with the MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I four-year money that we have in the first actually took that highway four days ago bundle, number one from the Building and I found it challenging to drive faster Canada Plan. We will be working on, of than 65 over the whole highway. I am course, the worst areas, so the highway just trying to understand how we look at will be improving overall every year. this highway from the context of what What the four-year money won’t be are the sections that require doing is the entire highway. rehabilitation that are defined as dips MR. DOLYNNY: So it is safe to say that and what are the sections that are we have roughly 100 kilometres that we defined as maintenance. That whole are talking about and over the four-year highway has deteriorated horribly. I stretch, how many kilometres are have taken it several times this summer anticipated to be rehabilitated, and I will tell you it has really resurfaced and brought to a so-called deteriorated quite a bit since last fall. I standard as we are doing it in a would distinguish, I mean the whole piecemeal approach? Is it 40 of those thing needs to be resurfaced. So, why kilometres, 50 of those kilometres? I’d don’t we start with those first questions? like to get an understanding. What is the Thank you. target of the department after this four- CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank year bundle? Thank you. you, Mr. Hawkins. Deputy Minister HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Not the entire Neudorf. 100 kilometres has dips in it. Some parts of the highway are straight and we October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 103

MR. NEUDORF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. maintain the full 100 kilometres. So we The stretch of highway between would put down some material to fix the Behchoko and Yellowknife has some dips and holes with maintenance and try deterioration in the surface and dips. We to maintain the best driving conditions are addressing it two ways. First we as possible. Thank you. have our O and M money. With that we MR. HAWKINS: Is he really saying basically just fill the dip and put a new under the dips we are just filling holes chip fill surface on top and it doesn’t get and fixing cracks? Thank you. any farther than the surface, it is just repairing the surface. When we do have HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The regular some additional money with the capital maintenance program, with the capital funding here, we do take the opportunity that we are discussing today, we will be to essentially reconstruct the highway. reconstructing sections that we are So we start with the drainage, make hoping won’t deteriorate any further. sure that that is okay, then we make With the areas where we are not sure that the side structure is okay. We reconstructing, we continue to maintain bring it up to grade and then we put a it and if there are some dips that need to finishing surface on it and chipseal it. be filled, if there are holes that need to be filled, then we will be patching the To try to address and come up with holes and filling the dips with some better solutions, we do have a number material that will keep the road as of different test sections out there right smooth as possible. now where we are testing different things to see if we can come up with a MR. HAWKINS: Since the construction better way to slow down the rate that the of that road a few years ago, when we dips are appearing on that road. Thank received all that money to redo it, I am you. just wondering if there was any part of that actual road that was under CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank warranty, and if so, what sections. you, deputy minister. Mr. Hawkins. Thank you. MR. HAWKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The entire will return to the test sections, because I highway would have been under would like to know more about that, but I warranty for one year, so as we pay the want to understand in this particular contractor for reconstructing the section on Highway No. 3 how many highway, it would have been a holdback kilometres are targeted for for a year and then if the highway held reconstruction and how many are for a year, we couldn’t legally hold a targeted, I assume, just to fill in the dips. contractor’s money any longer than the Thank you. year’s warranty. So once that money CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank was released, essentially it was up to us you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Beaulieu. to maintain any issues on the highway HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. after that. Chair. The embankment improvements MR. HAWKINS: Was any warranty in the recent construction, we are action taken? If so, how many hoping to do four to five kilometres each kilometres fell under the warranty year, and with the maintenance we try to program? October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 104

HON. TOM BEAULIEU: I apologize, purchased underneath that contract to Mr. Chairman; I didn’t hear the question. fill potholes. We did a test section at the MR. HAWKINS: It was such a good junction of the Detah access road on question I’m surprised they weren’t Highway No. 4. hanging on my every word. I was The test sections on Highway No. 3 are asking, under the warranty program how not about the chipsealed surface, so many kilometres where actually there’s no testing of Easy Street. The actioned. In other words, did we actually test sections on Highway No. 3 were use the warranty or were we able to about getting into the subgrade and how access the warranty? Did we access do we stabilize the subgrade to keep the any warranty whatsoever? Thank you. ditch from reoccurring. Thank you. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: The MR. HAWKINS: Has that test been construction of the highway was finished successful and when do we call it an in 2006 and we don’t have the end of the test? Thank you. information if any warranty money was MR. NEUDORF: We do continue to used the following year with us here. It monitor the test sections on Highway may have been, but we can provide that No. 3. We’ll see some results already. information to committee if the Members It’s about two years that they’ve been in wish. operation now, but we’ll continue to MR. HAWKINS: I’d like to know if we monitor for five or 10 years from now to actually got any warranty out of it, and I get the full results. Thank you, Mr. certainly hope that would be here before Chair. the end of session. As you know, we’re MR. HAWKINS: So the deputy minister down to just a few days. is saying we’re going to have to wait five Under the test section, I know we did a to 10 years before the GNWT decides to section using the product called Easy consider purchasing that? Street. Is the Minister able to tell us MR. NEUDORF: Some of the dips that where they used this, how many are on the highway reappear after a kilometres or how long of a stretch they year. It does not take very long. When used, and why don’t we have a placard we did these test sections, we did pick of some sort to identify that so people particularly troublesome spots. Even can see where it’s being used? I mean, I though it’s two years, we are starting to wouldn’t know where to look for it, so no see some of the results, but we will one in the public would, so how would continue to monitor for five or 10 years we know what’s being used and how to get the full results. much? Thank you. I would note that none of those test CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank sections involved Easy Street. Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Deputy Minister you. Neudorf. MR. HAWKINS: If we had more time I MR. NEUDORF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. wouldn’t mind knowing a little more The purchase of Easy Street is they won about what are they doing and when do a contract to provide material to fill they actually start realizing it’s a product potholes. That was several years ago worth using or not using. I’m just and we used the material that we curious. I mean, they’ve been saying October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 105 they’ve been testing it for a number of MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very years. This is the first time I’ve heard it’s much, Mr. Chair. Just with regard to two years. I thought it’s been out there road licensing and safety, residents of for four or longer than four. Fort Liard still find it burdensome that The deputy minister also talked about they’ve got to drive all the way to Fort other design tests. Can he explain and Simpson each time they need to get elaborate? Thank you. their vehicle registration and/or trailer registration. I know that we were MR. NEUDORF: To be clear, the test supposed to have a mobile licensing sections that we’re talking about on unit out there. I don’t know if they ever Highway No. 3, none of them involved got that going, or has online registration Easy Street. So we were not testing advanced to the point where they can surface products; we were testing do it from the comfort of their subgrade repairs. There was no Easy community? Thank you. Street on Highway No. 3. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank There are four different test sections. you, Mr. Menicoche. Deputy Minister Two of them involve culvert repairs and Neudorf. then two of them involve grade repairs. One of the grade repairs involved a MR. NEUDORF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. product called Sementrics. It was All vehicle registrations can be renewed basically a concrete-type product that online and that’s from Yellowknife or you use to provide some structural Fort Liard or Trout Lake. It’s any strength to the road, then you construct community can do that and we continue the road on top of that. to expand the number of services that we’re providing online with some The other one involved different types of additional money in this budget to drainage of the grade, of the subgrade continue with that and we hope at the of the road, and different types of grade end of it that all of our commercial in terms of the size of the rock and then vehicle permits are done online so that in terms of the angle of the ditching carriers can use the Internet to provide that’s on the side of the road. Thank that type of service. you, Mr. Chair. As the Member indicated, we do have a CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank mobile solution for an issuing office. So you, deputy minister. Committee, we’re we would like, and we try, to provide on page 84, highways, infrastructure contractors to provide issuing services investments, $69.340 million. for us in each community, but SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. unfortunately, the volume is very small CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Page 86, in the smaller communities. So it’s hard marine, infrastructure investments, for anybody to justify doing it. So in the $100,000. case of Fort Liard, we do work with the community and when the community SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. approaches us and says we’ve got X CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Page 88, number of people that are wanting to road licensing and safety, infrastructure renew their registration, could you come investments, $1.250 million. Mr. in and help us out, we do pick up our Menicoche. suitcase that has a mobile issuing October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 106 station in it and head to the community CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank and provide that service for a day or you, Mr. Menicoche. Committee, we’re two, whatever might be required. Thank on page 88, road licensing and safety, you. infrastructure investments, $1.250 CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank million. you, deputy minister. Mr. Menicoche. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. MENICOCHE: Thank you very CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank much. Also, a new issue that came up you. We’ll go back to page 81, out of Fort Liard was the road tests that Department of Transportation, total the community was almost too small infrastructure investments, $71.891 because I think we changed our million. legislation that the road test had to be SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. done in the larger communities like Fort Simpson. Even Fort Simpson was CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Agreed. questionable at that time. So I don’t Is committee agreed we’re concluded know if the department has reviewed it with Transportation? with regard to giving out learners’ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. permits, class 7s and class 6s. I know CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank that Aurora College goes to great you, Minister. Sergeant-at-Arms, please lengths to train up to 10 people at a time escort the witness out of the Chamber. in Fort Liard. So just with that there, Mr. Committee, next we have on the agenda Chair. Legislative Assembly. Mr. Miltenberger. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank HON. MICHAEL MILTENBERGER: I you, Mr. Menicoche. Minister Beaulieu. move we report progress. HON. TOM BEAULIEU: Thank you, Mr. ---Carried Chairman. We don’t have the information on whether or not you can CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): I will now get a full driver’s licence in Fort rise and report progress. Thank you. Simpson, but we know you can in Hay MR. SPEAKER: Item 21, report of River, Inuvik, Fort Smith, Yellowknife. Committee of the Whole. Mr. Bouchard. We’re not 100 percent sure about Fort Simpson, but we can check that to see if 12) Report of Committee of the Whole you can get a full licence in Fort Simpson. MR. BOUCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouchard): Thank has been considering Tabled Document you, Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. Menicoche. 281-17(5), Northwest Territories Capital MR. MENICOCHE: Thanks, Mr. Chair. Estimates, 2016-2017, and would like to All right. I’ll await that confirmation. I just report progress. Mr. Speaker, I move wanted to ask for another hour for my that the report of Committee of the further questions, Mr. Chair. Whole be concurred with. Thank you. ---Laughter MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. I’ve got no further questions. Bouchard. Do I have a seconder? Mr. Beaulieu. October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 107

---Carried 20.Consideration in Committee of Item 22, third reading of bills. Mr. Clerk, the Whole of Bills and Other Matters orders of the day. - Bill 45, An Act to Amend the Workers’ Compensation Act 13) Orders of the Day - Bill 49, An Act to Amend the Deh CLERK OF THE HOUSE (Mr. Mercer): Cho Bridge Act Orders of the day for Friday, October 2, - Bill 56, Miscellaneous Statute 2015, at 10:00 a.m.: Law Amendment Act, 2015 1. Prayer - Bill 59, Estate Administration Law 2. Ministers’ Statements Amendment Act 3. Members’ Statements - Bill 60, An Act to Amend the Motor Vehicles Act, No. 2 4. Returns to Oral Questions - Bill 61, An Act to Amend the 5. Recognition of Visitors in the Public Airports Act Gallery - Bill 62, An Act to Amend the 6. Acknowledgements Coroners Act 7. Oral Questions - Bill 63, An Act to Amend the 8. Written Questions Victims of Crime Act 9. Returns to Written Questions - Bill 64, An Act to Amend the Co- 10.Replies to Opening Address operative Associations Act 11.Petitions - Bill 65, An Act to Amend the Safety Act 12.Reports of Standing and Special Committees - Minister’s Statement 221-17(5), Sessional Statement 13.Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills - Tabled Document 281-17(5), Northwest Territories Capital 14.Tabling of Documents Estimates, 2016-2017 15.Notices of Motion 21.Report of Committee of the 16.Notices of Motion for First Whole Reading of Bills 22.Third Reading of Bills 17.Motions 23.Orders of the Day 18.First Reading of Bills MR. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. Clerk. - Bill 48, An Act to Amend the Accordingly, this House stands Mental Health Act adjourned until Friday, October 2nd, at - Bill 69, An Act to Amend the 10:00 a.m. Legislative Assembly and ---ADJOURNMENT Executive Council Act, No. 2 The House adjourned at 9:23 p.m. 19.Second Reading of Bills - Bill 68, An Act to Amend the Child and Family Services Act, No. 2 October 1, 2015 NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HANSARD Page 108

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