Royal Commission Into Trade Union s1

ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION

Brisbane Magistrates Court Level 4, 363 George Street, Brisbane, QLD, 4000

On Friday, 18 September 2015 at 9.30am (Day 5)

CFMEU QLD

Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC

Counsel Assisting: Ms S McNaughton SC and Mr M Elliott

Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 519 Transcript produced by DTI 1

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 520 M J McALLUM (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 THE COMMISSIONER: And of those, they're all Queensland 2 Police Service statements other than two which are 3 Australian Federal Police statements, that of Conan Butler 4 and that of Darren Wall. 5 6 CORNUBIA CASE STUDY MFI-3 - STATEMENTS OF MR BOSH DATED 7 23/07/2015, CONAN BUTLER DATED 27/08/2015, EDWARD BUTLER 8 DATED 27/08/2015, BENJAMIN CARTER DATED 23/08/2015, 9 COLIN CONSIDINE DATED 30/07/2015, SHANE DALBY DATED 10 28/07/2015, DIANE GRAHAM DATED 23/07/2015, STEVE GRAY DATED 11 28/07/2015, DANIEL GREENLAND DATED 29/07/2015, GARY HEARN 12 DATED 15/07/2015, ROBERT KELLY DATED 31/07/2015, 13 LUCAS NICOLL DATED 16/07/2015, LAURIE NIPPERESS DATED 14 27/05/2015, RUTH PERRY DATED 6/08/2015, GEORGE PETROPOULOS 15 DATED JULY 2015, ADAM SHUTTLEWOOD DATED 31/08/2015, 16 DARREN WALL DATED 16/07/2015 17 18 MS McNAUGHTON: Can I also formally tender the recorded 19 interview of Mathew McAllum. There is a transcript and 20 audio of an interview of 21 July 2015 and I seek leave to 21 ask two or three questions in relation to that of the 22 witness. 23 24 THE COMMISSIONER: The last two items will be 25 Cornubia Case Study MFI-4. 26 27 CORNUBIA CASE STUDY MFI-4 AUDIO AND TRANSCRIPT OF AN 28 INTERVIEW OF MATHEW MCALLUM DATED 21/07/2015 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: I grant you that leave. 31 32 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you, Commissioner. 33 34

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 521 M J McALLUM (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. I did not. 2 3 Q. In relation to the evidence you have given over the 4 last two days and compare that to your police statement, do 5 you say that you have given different accounts of your role 6 in the Cornubia house? 7 A. I have. 8 9 Q. How do you account for the fact that you have given 10 different accounts? 11 A. I guess a lot of it was based on not remembering a lot 12 of what had occurred. I had, I guess you could say that 13 I had blanked that out of my memory and I guess in a way of 14 sort of trying to protect my involvement and other people's 15 involvement in what had occurred. 16 17 Q. When you earlier this morning said that based at the 18 time of when you were giving that statement, to the best of 19 your knowledge you had given a full and frank account of 20 your involvement, that's not entirely true, is it? 21 A. Sorry, at the time of giving that statement, what 22 I had said, there were elements of that statement which 23 were correct. There were components of that statement that 24 I did not elaborate on with regards to other trades. 25 26 Q. Did you deliberately not elaborate on them to the 27 police? 28 A. Correct. 29 30 Q. To the extent that you did not elaborate on them, did 31 you mislead the police? 32 A. Not intentionally to mislead, but I could not remember 33 the details to be able to put down in a statement without 34 either making wrong judgments. 35 36 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Stewart, I think on page 514 you had 39 got to the stage of saying, "Perhaps I can just diverge for 40 a moment." Do you want to start at that point or some 41 other point? 42 43 MR STEWART: I would like to ask, if I may, 44 Mr Commissioner, for Mr McAllum to go to page 412 of the 45 transcript. 46 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 522 M J McALLUM (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 523 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. How many conversations did you have with Mr Adam Moore 2 that had anything to do with the Hanna's house? 3 A. If you want me to quantify the number of 4 conversations, I can't do that. I can't give you a number. 5 There were several conversations. If you want me to - over 6 the course of these past days I've had plenty of time to 7 think about what had occurred. If you want me to refer 8 that we had a meeting at Mirvac's office with Jenny Hanna 9 regarding the house, I would say we had a meeting with 10 Jenny Hanna at Mirvac's office regarding the house. 11 12 Q. I am interested in conversations that you can recall. 13 A. So that conversation with Jenny Hanna was in relation 14 to -- 15 16 Q. You can recall some conversations, can you? 17 A. I can recall a meeting that we had. 18 19 MS McNAUGHTON: I would ask that the witness be allowed to 20 finish his answer. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Mr McAllum, I think there was an 23 interruption while you were in the middle of an answer. Do 24 you want to say anything further? 25 A. Only if they want me to continue with the discussion 26 that was held with Jenny Hanna. 27 28 Q. I think actually the initial questioning was 29 conversations with Mr Moore about the house. Are you 30 content for him to keep talking about conversations -- 31 A. These were discussions - sorry, Commissioner, these 32 were discussions with Adam Moore, myself and Jenny Hanna. 33 34 MR STEWART: Q. Why don't we do it to the best that you 35 can manage, Mr McAllum, in chronological, that you can't 36 tell me how many conversations you had with Mr Moore that 37 had anything to do with the Hanna's house, other than to 38 say you had several? 39 A. Correct. 40 41 Q. Do you think it was more than 10, Mr McAllum? 42 A. Throughout the course of the house or initially prior 43 to starting the house? 44 45 Q. I am interested in any conversation you had with 46 Mr Moore that had anything to do with the Hanna's house? 47 A. I would say that we had more than 10 discussions, yes.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 524 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Let's deal with them in chronological order. Is the 3 first conversation you can recall the one that took place 4 in the Mirvac office when he told you about the Hanna's 5 house? 6 A. He told me about a house that we were going to do some 7 work on. 8 9 Q. What's the next conversation you can recall? 10 A. The next conversation would have been along the lines 11 of getting the details for the house. 12 13 Q. Do you remember the conversation? 14 A. The exact content of the conversation, word for word, 15 no. 16 17 Q. Perhaps we were at cross-purposes. We have identified 18 that you had that initial conversation and we will return 19 to talk about the detail of that in a little while. 20 A. Right. 21 22 Q. I am interested in the next conversation that you can 23 recall. 24 A. The next conversation would have been in relation to 25 receiving the drawings and talking about what needed to be 26 done with regards to the house. 27 28 Q. Was that a separate conversation from the initial 29 conversation? 30 A. Correct. 31 32 Q. Where did that take place? 33 A. In the Mirvac office. 34 35 Q. The next conversation? 36 A. Hard to tell, to give you an exact of the next 37 conversation, but there was the meeting with regards to 38 Jenny Hanna coming to the Mirvac office to discuss the 39 house, discuss my involvement. 40 41 Q. The next conversation? 42 A. There would have been discussions with regards to who 43 I had -- 44 45 Q. Do you recall the conversation? You are giving your 46 answer in response to my question by saying, "There would 47 have been conversations"?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 525 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. That sounds to someone just reading the transcript as 4 though you're assuming or deducing that the conversations 5 took place. I am interested, as I have mentioned to you, 6 in what you can recall, Mr McAllum. 7 A. Okay. 8 9 Q. Do you recall this conversation that you have 10 just - this fourth conversation in the chronological order 11 that you have mentioned? 12 A. I recall I would - I had discussions identifying what 13 trades were going to go down to the house. I recall having 14 discussions regarding what we would be able to do and what 15 we wouldn't be able to do. I recall having discussions of 16 if there were any issues with regard to being able to cover 17 the cost of certain elements. I recall the fact that we 18 needed to request contractors to pay for trades and that he 19 would have to talk to those trades in order that they 20 understand the costs were going to be coming through for 21 them to pay. 22 23 Q. Is that the list? 24 A. As far as I can recall at this present time, that is 25 the list. 26 27 Q. You have done a lot of work trying to recall all of 28 these conversations before you came here this morning, 29 haven't you, Mr McAllum? 30 A. I have. 31 32 Q. That list of seven is the best that you have come up 33 with? 34 A. I am not saying that that's the best that I can come 35 up with, but at this point of time I am not going to try 36 and fabricate conversations when it's hard for me to give 37 you exact dates, times, durations, content of any 38 conversation. Conversations happen. I don't lock them in 39 my memory to bring up two and a half years down the track. 40 41 Q. Did you fabricate conversations when you gave your 42 evidence to the police officers who took the record of 43 interview which has become MFI-4 in this case study? 44 A. I did leave out information with regard to the 45 statement that I gave to the police because I did not want 46 to lead on that Adam had any involvement in this. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 526 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Did you fabricate - amongst that which you told the 2 police officers were there falsehoods? 3 A. False? 4 5 Q. Lies, were there lies? 6 A. No, there weren't any lies. I told them that I had 7 obtained prices for trades. I told them that David Hanna 8 had paid for certain components of those trades. 9 10 Q. Can Mr McAllum please be shown MFI-4 in this 11 case study at page 12. I would like you to read between 12 lines 29 and 42, please. 13 A. Right. 14 15 Q. At line 29, we have Detective Senior Constable Hoile 16 asking you how you came to be approached to help on the 17 house? 18 A. Correct. 19 20 Q. And then at about line 36 you start giving an answer. 21 You said that the reason you did work on the house was 22 because of a conversation you had with Adam Moore? 23 A. Correct. 24 25 Q. And then you continue and you point out that in 26 dealing with what he told you, you said, "It was just 27 a matter of getting prices and forwarding it through to 28 David Hanna"? 29 A. That was the intention of what was to be said because 30 of all of this coming up. 31 32 Q. Was that a lie, Mr McAllum? 33 A. I wouldn't say it was a lie. 34 35 Q. It says that he told you that it was just a matter of 36 getting prices and forwarding it through to David Hanna, 37 doesn't it? 38 A. That's what that says. 39 40 Q. And you understood that that meant that you were 41 conveying to the police officers, and you knew that the 42 police officers would understand, that all that Mr Moore 43 had asked you to do were those two things, didn't you? 44 A. As far as Mr Moore was concerned, yes. 45 46 Q. I am sorry, you knew that that was what you were 47 conveying to the police officers?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 527 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. And you knew that that's what the police officers 4 would understand? 5 A. No, I didn't know that. 6 7 Q. What did you think they would understand? 8 A. I didn't know what they would understand because 9 I don't have the information. I don't have a recollection 10 two and a half years of things that had occurred. I've 11 seen a lot over the last four days that has reminded me of 12 what has happened two and a half years ago. 13 14 Q. You intended, as a result of this passage of your 15 interview, to give them to understand that all Mr Moore 16 told you to do was to get prices and forward them to 17 David Hanna, didn't you? 18 A. That was, yes. 19 20 Q. And that was true, wasn't it? 21 A. No, that was not true. 22 23 Q. That was a lie? 24 A. That was a lie. 25 26 Q. Let's go back and deal with the seven conversations 27 you have identified. Firstly, the initial conversation, 28 tell me what happened. What was said? Tell me what was 29 said? 30 A. I can't recall exactly what was said to detail. 31 32 Q. What is your recollection like of this conversation? 33 A. The first conversation? The first conversation? 34 35 Q. The first conversation is the one we are talking 36 about. We will do it in chronological order. What is your 37 recollection like of the first conversation? 38 A. That we were going to do some work on a house. 39 40 Q. I want you to tell me who said what? 41 A. I can't recall who said what. 42 43 Q. So you think that Mr Hanna said -- 44 A. Mr Hanna wasn't there. 45 46 Q. Mr Moore, rather, said what? 47 A. That we need to do some work on a house and he wanted

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 528 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 my help. 2 3 Q. That's not what you told my learned friend 4 Ms McNaughton yesterday, was it, or was it the day before 5 yesterday? 6 A. You can ask me -- 7 8 Q. Would you go to page 370 of the transcript, please. 9 A. Right. 10 11 Q. Before we go to that page of the transcript, can I ask 12 you some questions. Had your recollection of what 13 transpired during this initial conversation with Mr Moore 14 changed overnight? 15 A. No. 16 17 Q. Has it changed in the last couple of days? 18 A. No. 19 20 Q. We can take it that when answering Ms McNaughton's 21 questions, you were giving your best recollection of the 22 conversation? 23 A. Based on something that took place two and a half 24 years ago. 25 26 Q. Go to page 370 and you can read from line 45 over on 27 to page 371, as far as you like. Tell me when you're 28 ready. 29 A. Where do you want me to read to? 30 31 Q. I beg your pardon? 32 A. How far would you like me to read to? 33 34 Q. To the end of the conversation. You can read over on 35 to page 372, line 34, let's say. 36 A. Okay. 37 38 Q. Did you find it odd that Mr Moore did not tell you the 39 name of the people at whose house you were going to do 40 work? 41 A. I can't recall if he did or if he did not. 42 43 Q. If I suggest to you that during this conversation one 44 of the first things Mr Moore told you was that he'd been 45 asked to give Dave Hanna help with the home he was 46 building, could you deny that? 47 A. Could I deny that? No, because I don't remember.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 529 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. So it's possible that's what he said in this initial 3 conversation? 4 A. That the house was for Dave Hanna? 5 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. You see, you would have found it odd if he'd had 10 a conversation with you without telling you whose house it 11 was? 12 A. Why? 13 14 Q. You'd have to know how to get in contact with the 15 person in order to be able to help them, wouldn't you? 16 A. That would eventually come to light, yes. 17 18 Q. But would you not find it odd that this piece of 19 information, the identity of a house owner, was kept from 20 you? 21 A. No, I wouldn't find that odd. 22 23 Q. Do you specifically recall all of the things being 24 recorded at pages 370 to 372 of the transcript being said? 25 A. To the best of my knowledge, yes. 26 27 Q. Is that all that was said? 28 A. I can't recall if that was all that was said. 29 30 Q. The two specific items of work that we find referred 31 to on those pages of the transcript concern the windows and 32 internal workings or finishes? 33 A. Correct. 34 35 Q. Can I suggest to you that they were the only two 36 specific items of work that Mr Moore referred to in this 37 initial conversation? Do you agree with that or not? 38 A. I don't agree with that. 39 40 Q. What else was referred to? 41 A. Services need to be completed. 42 43 Q. Where do we find that in the transcript? 44 A. Line 28, 371, "Services, electrical" -- 45 46 Q. No, no, no, no. No, Mr McAllum -- 47 A. Isn't that what we're talking about?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 530 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. No. I am asking you to tell me what you can recall of 3 what was discussed with Mr Moore during this conversation? 4 A. What's on the transcript. 5 6 Q. If you go to the foot of page 371, at line 47, you 7 will find Ms McNaughton asking you, and this is after you 8 had gone through line 28 where "electrical" is referred to 9 and line 31 where "plumbing" and "mechanical" are referred 10 to, and the question is: 11 12 Did he ... 13 14 That is Mr Moore: 15 16 ... for example, set out the various 17 different things he was thinking of? 18 19 And your answer was? 20 A. "No." 21 22 Q. "No." There was no discussion between you and 23 Mr Moore, in this initial conversation, of those items 24 referred to at page 371 of the transcript between lines 24 25 and 47, was there? 26 A. No, because he didn't need to spell out specifically 27 what was needed to be done. I was told that the house was 28 at a certain stage, that the house needed to be completed 29 to a certain stage; that included everything between what 30 had been done to what needed to be done. 31 32 Q. Where do we find in these pages of transcript 33 reference to Mr Moore telling you what stage the house had 34 reached? 35 36 MS McNAUGHTON: I am reluctant to rise to my feet, but if 37 my friend is suggesting that the pages 370-372 was the sole 38 account by Mr McAllum over a day and a half's evidence of 39 the first conversation with Mr Moore, that is not correct, 40 and, in my respectful submission, the witness may be misled 41 if that impression is allowed to remain. 42 43 MR STEWART: Q. I had pointed out or directed your 44 attention to these pages as a form of assistance. Did you 45 read the transcript of your evidence overnight? 46 A. No. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 531 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Do you recall whether during this initial conversation 2 Mr Moore said anything about electrical services? 3 A. He would have. 4 5 Q. You now say that he would have? 6 A. Well, with regards to what needed to be done -- 7 8 Q. No, no, Mr McAllum -- 9 A. I did -- 10 11 Q. -- did he say anything to you concerning electrical 12 services, specifically concerning electrical services? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. What did he say? 16 A. I don't recall exactly what he said. I knew a list of 17 trades that I needed to get prices from. Those trades were 18 the trades that I had contacted. I don't fabricate that in 19 my mind to think that, "Hang on, this guy needs to have 20 electrical in his house just for the sake of having it." 21 22 Q. Forget those pages of the transcript and just tell me, 23 starting from "towards", what you and Mr Moore discussed 24 during this conversation? 25 A. As you can - we discussed plenty of things. 26 27 Q. Tell me about them all. 28 A. I don't recall exactly word for word. I can't sit 29 here -- 30 31 Q. Tell me what you can recall. 32 A. I can't - what I recall is everything that I've said 33 to date. 34 35 Q. Tell me what that is? 36 A. That there was a house that had been started. The 37 house had been completed to a certain stage, that certain 38 works needed to be completed on that house and that I would 39 obtain prices for that work and that if there were elements 40 that could be paid by Hanna, he could pay and if there were 41 elements that needed to be covered through the trades, 42 would be covered through the trades. 43 44 Q. We can go through the whole of the transcript that my 45 learned friend Ms McNaughton has mentioned, but you have 46 never mentioned that, have you, that last element? 47 A. Every day --

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 532 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. You have never mentioned that last element of this 3 conversation you have now described with Mr Moore before, 4 have you? 5 A. You're asking me to remember something from two and 6 a half years ago. 7 8 Q. You have had a lot of opportunity to think about it 9 and you have taken those opportunities to think carefully 10 about this, haven't you? 11 A. I haven't had a lot of opportunity to think about 12 a lot of things. I've been in a very dark place for the 13 last seven weeks, ever since this has raised its head. 14 I don't enjoy going through this process. 15 16 Q. How accurate do you think your recollection is of 17 these things, Mr McAllum? 18 A. You're talking about something that's two and a half 19 years old. 20 21 Q. Do I take it then that your - your answers -- 22 A. You are talking about a statement that I made -- 23 24 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Stewart, I don't think he had quite 25 finished his answer. 26 27 MR STEWART: I am sorry. 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Yes, continue, Mr McAllum. 30 A. You are referring to a statement that I made to the 31 police, a statement that I thought at the time was, to a 32 point, accurate. I see the amount of documents that I have 33 been involved with and I don't remember a lot of those 34 documents, so how I can remember exactly what happened two 35 and a half years ago is hard. 36 37 MR STEWART: Q. Is it fair to say that when giving your 38 evidence before this Commission, what you are doing is your 39 best to try and work out what happened rather than give 40 evidence about what you can remember happened? 41 A. I'm trying to work out, to the best of my knowledge, 42 what had happened, what was said, who had said it, when was 43 it said -- 44 45 Q. You don't - I am sorry, go on. 46 A. That's hard to remember two and a half years down the 47 track.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 533 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. It is also hard to remember when you are under the 3 sort of pressure that you feel under at the moment? 4 A. I don't feel under any pressure at the moment, now, 5 because that weight has lifted. 6 7 Q. Can I suggest that you don't have a clear recollection 8 of what happened in these conversations two years ago? 9 A. I agree, I don't have a clear recollection. No-one 10 would have a clear recollection from two and a half years 11 ago. 12 13 Q. The second -- 14 15 MS McNAUGHTON: Can I, again, hesitate - my friend put to 16 the witness that he had never, ever before mentioned, as 17 I understand his question, trades being mentioned in the 18 first conversation with Mr Moore. Could I invite my 19 friend's attention to page 413 of the transcript yesterday, 20 lines 21-22. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just make a general observation. 23 This is not a criticism of Mr Stewart or, indeed, 24 specifically about Mr Stewart. I think when we have these 25 general accusations or questions about, in effect, a recent 26 invention or an afterthought, the questioner often has 27 a belief that the question is fair. Whether it actually is 28 fair will very often turn on a close scrutiny of the whole 29 of the evidence and in Mr McAllum's case, of course, that 30 part of the evidence that he has been giving which is not 31 small in volume. 32 33 The overall findings to be made about Mr McAllum's 34 evidence would turn not only on his evidence, but on every 35 other piece of material and if, in hindsight, it seems that 36 some of the questioning was not completely accurately 37 based, well, that is a matter too, to be taken into 38 account. 39 40 I think Ms McNaughton rose when you had asked about 41 two words of a question. Do you want to resume that 42 question? 43 44 MR STEWART: Thank you. 45 46 Q. Is that all that you can recall of the initial 47 conversation with Mr Moore?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 534 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. There was no mention during that conversation of 4 Mr Wadsworth? 5 A. No. 6 7 Q. There was no mention during that conversation of the 8 amount of the value of work that the Hannas might get for 9 free? 10 A. The amount? No. 11 12 Q. There was no discussion of the amount of time you were 13 allowed to spend on this project in order to help the 14 Hannas? 15 A. The time that I would spend was whatever was required. 16 17 Q. No, no, I am interested in what Mr Moore said in this 18 conversation. Was there any discussion during this 19 conversation, initial conversation, about the amount of 20 time you could spend on the Hanna project? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. At the end of that initial conversation, Mr McAllum, 24 did you have any idea that helping the Hannas would turn 25 out to involve the very considerable amount of work on your 26 part that it eventually did? 27 A. Sorry, did I think that it would involve the amount of 28 time that I'd spent? 29 30 Q. At the end of that initial conversation with Mr Moore, 31 did you have any idea that you would end up spending the 32 amount of time you did spend on the Hanna's house? 33 A. No, I did not. 34 35 Q. Isn't it the case at the end of that conversation with 36 Mr Moore, the initial conversation, your expectation was 37 that you would have to do a couple of hours, or three or 38 four hours' work to help them with the things that Mr Moore 39 had specifically mentioned during this conversation, and 40 that that would be it? 41 A. No. 42 43 Q. How much time did you expect you would have to spend 44 on the house at the end of that initial conversation? 45 A. I had no idea. 46 47 Q. You gave evidence I think in response to questions put

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 535 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 by my learned friend Ms McNaughton, that the job grew in 2 size, the Hanna job grew in size? 3 A. Grew in size? 4 5 Q. Yes. The amount of work you had to do grew 6 unexpectedly? 7 A. I don't recall whether I said that it grew. I got to 8 the point where I had stopped. Now, if that is different 9 to what I said before, I can't - I can't remember. 10 11 Q. What do you mean you stopped? 12 A. I was looking after certain components to get the 13 house to a certain stage. Then after - after painting was 14 arranged, I had stopped any involvement. Whether that was 15 because my time at Mirvac had finished, because I don't 16 believe the house finished until November/December '13, and 17 I left Mirvac in September. 18 19 Q. Throughout the time between April and when you left 20 Mirvac, you were working on the Hanna house? 21 A. Correct. 22 23 Q. Can I suggest to you that that initial conversation 24 took place in this way. It took place in the Brisbane 25 office, as you have mentioned, and Mr Moore told you that 26 Dave Hanna had approached him for help with the house he 27 was building. Do you think words to that effect could have 28 been said during this conversation? 29 A. It could have been. 30 31 Q. He said to you that Mr Hanna had told him that he was 32 having difficulty getting windows and that Mr Moore had 33 said, "We'd help him getting a price for windows." Is it 34 possible that that was said during this conversation? 35 A. Possible. 36 37 Q. He said that Mr Hanna would send him, Mr Moore, the 38 plans so the windows could be priced? 39 A. Correct. 40 41 Q. He also said that Mr Hanna wanted help with interior 42 design because he liked the finishes Mirvac had achieved? 43 A. Right. 44 45 Q. That's correct? 46 A. Possible. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 536 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. He said that he told Mr Hanna that he couldn't use 2 Mirvac interior designers because they had all been 3 concentrated in Sydney? 4 A. This is a conversation that Adam had with David? 5 6 Q. This is the initial conversation that you had with 7 Mr Moore? 8 A. No. This is a conversation that Adam had with 9 David Hanna. 10 11 Q. I am saying to you in the initial conversation that 12 you had with Mr Moore, Mr Moore said to you that he had 13 told Mr Hanna that he couldn't use Mirvac designers because 14 there were none in Brisbane, they had all been concentrated 15 in Sydney? 16 A. No, I didn't need to know that information. 17 18 Q. He is telling you what he's told - what I put to you 19 is what he says he told you he told Mr Hanna. Is it 20 possible that that is what he told you? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. So you disagree with that? 24 A. I disagree with that. 25 26 Q. He told you that he had recommended to Mr Hanna that 27 he use Dave Mullan's wife as an interior designer? 28 A. Again, this is a conversation between Adam and 29 David Hanna? 30 31 Q. In the initial conversation that you had with 32 Mr Moore, Mr Moore told you that he had told - he had 33 recommended to Mr Hanna that he use Dave Mullan's wife who 34 was an interior designer, is that correct or not? 35 A. No. I was told that Dave Mullan's wife was already 36 engaged to do the interior design. 37 38 Q. During this initial conversation, Mr Moore told you 39 that he wanted you to get prices for windows for Mr Hanna? 40 A. Correct. 41 42 Q. He told you that he wanted to help him with any other 43 subbies he needed? 44 A. Correct. 45 46 Q. And finally, he said that he wanted you to look after 47 Mr Hanna?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 537 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Look after Mr Hanna in regards to help him at the 2 house with regards to what he needed to be done. 3 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. Correct. 6 7 Q. Is it possible that that's what he said? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. You knew that Mr Hanna was a senior ranking BLF 11 officer? 12 A. At the time, no. I don't have dealings with Unions. 13 14 Q. You were a foreman when you were employed at Mirvac 15 prior to going out and doing your own, working privately, 16 weren't you? 17 A. Between '97 and 2002? 18 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Don't have dealings with unions? 21 22 Q. You didn't have dealings with unions as a foreman? 23 A. As a foreman, no. 24 25 Q. I suggest to you that there was no mention of work 26 being done for the Hannas, in terms of building work being 27 done for the Hannas, in this initial conversation and 28 I suggest to you that there was no mention whatsoever of 29 concealing things? 30 31 MS McNAUGHTON: That's two questions. 32 33 THE WITNESS: Well -- 34 35 MR STEWART: Q. You disagree with those propositions, 36 don't you? 37 A. The first conversation was talking about doing some 38 work on a house. The second conversation was with regards 39 to what needed to be done and how it would be covered. 40 41 Q. The second conversation in chronological order that 42 you have mentioned -- 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: You asked two questions, as 45 Ms McNaughton pointed out. I think Mr McAllum has answered 46 the first. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 538 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Mr Stewart's question is, really, at the first 2 conversation with Mr Moore was anything said about 3 concealing things? 4 A. The first conversation was purely about how he needed 5 to do some work on a house and that he wanted me involved. 6 7 MR STEWART: Q. No mention about concealing things? 8 A. The first conversation? 9 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Correct, no. 12 13 Q. Let's move to the second conversation. This is one 14 where you said you were told something about drawings. 15 Tell us about that conversation? 16 A. Where I received drawings? 17 18 Q. Tell us about the conversation between you and 19 Mr Moore concerning drawings. When did it take place? 20 A. I don't recall when it took place. 21 22 Q. How long after the initial conversation did it take 23 place? 24 A. It could have been a couple of days, it could have 25 been a week. 26 27 Q. Tell me the substance of the conversation? 28 A. For me to get the copy of the drawings and to work out 29 what needed to be done at the house, which would possibly 30 have included the discussion -- 31 32 Q. I am not interested in what it possibly would have 33 included. I am interested in what you discussed with him? 34 A. I'm trying - I'm trying to remember, so I can't 35 remember word for word, so, as far as I can recall, things 36 could be possible, things could be accurate, things may not 37 be at all; two and a half years is a very long time. 38 39 Q. You are confident, though, that you had a second 40 conversation a couple of days after your initial 41 conversation with Mr Moore where drawings were discussed? 42 A. Correct. 43 44 Q. And you are confident, it seems, that he told you that 45 you were to get the drawings so that you could work out 46 what work had to be done? 47 A. Correct.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 539 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Did you get the drawings? 3 A. I did get the drawings. 4 5 Q. From whom did you get the drawings? 6 A. From Adam. 7 8 Q. So you didn't go out and try and obtain the drawings, 9 Mr Moore gave them to you? 10 A. Correct. 11 12 Q. Well, no doubt that is the third conversation. What 13 else was said during -- 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Just a minute, he had not finished his 16 answer. 17 18 Q. When you say, "No doubt that is the third 19 conversation", what was the answer you were giving to the 20 previous question? 21 A. The second conversation was receiving the drawings. 22 23 MR STEWART: Q. I see. So there was no conversation in 24 which he told you to go and get the drawings? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. The second conversation, you say, was when he gave you 28 the drawings? 29 A. Correct. 30 31 Q. Tell us what transpired during that conversation? 32 A. There would have been a discussion about what needed 33 to be done for the house. That conversation would have 34 transpired into -- 35 36 Q. Can you remember what was said during this 37 conversation? 38 A. I can't remember it word for word what happened during 39 that conversation. As I said, I'm not trying to make 40 something up. The conversation had taken place. 41 42 Q. I didn't ask you whether you could remember word for 43 word what happened. I asked you whether you could remember 44 the conversation. Can you remember this conversation when 45 you were handed the drawings? 46 A. I don't remember exactly what was said. The drawings 47 were handed to me. We would have discussed what needed to

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 540 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 be done with regards to the house. We would have discussed 2 how they were going to be paid. 3 4 Q. You can't remember any of that, though? 5 A. Word for word? 6 7 Q. You can't remember that that was discussed during this 8 conversation? 9 A. Whether it was the second conversation, the third 10 conversation, that was discussed. 11 12 Q. Or the fourth conversation? 13 14 MR JONES: May I raise an issue, Commissioner? 15 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Jones. 17 18 MR JONES: Yesterday, you generously gave Mr Stewart leave 19 to cross-examine Mr McAllum on the condition that the 20 cross-examination would contribute something and not 21 traverse the issues that have been already traversed in 22 questions asked by Counsel Assisting. So far there has 23 been approximately 35 minutes of cross-examination whereby 24 Mr McAllum has been asked the same questions about whether 25 or not he recalls these conversations word for word, the 26 contents of them, to which he gives exactly the same 27 answer. It is two and a half years ago, he cannot recall 28 precisely the words, but there were discussions throughout 29 this time with Adam Moore about things that needed to be 30 done. 31 32 The questions are repetitive and in light of the short 33 time that is available today, I ask that they be reframed, 34 as you had identified yesterday, to something that 35 contributes to the Commission. 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: There is considerable force in what you 38 have just said, Mr Jones. I would perhaps qualify it in 39 this way, though. It is true that Mr Stewart is going over 40 more than once particular aspects of the dealings with 41 Mr Moore and, in particular, is going over ground that 42 Ms McNaughton covered, significantly, more than once, but 43 we are operating presently under a system whereby Mr Moore 44 has put on no statement, nor, indeed, has any other of 45 these witnesses this week. I think, as a matter of 46 fairness, Mr Stewart is entitled to put his instructions as 47 to Mr Moore's version and he did that, of course, in

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 541 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 relation to the first conversation. 2 3 MR JONES: Yes. 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Stewart, as I have said, I think 6 there is some force in what Mr Jones has been contending. 7 I don't find valueless your putting of Mr Moore's version 8 because it does help sort the issues out a bit. When you 9 did it before, Mr McAllum remembered some things, didn't 10 remember other things and joined issue with some things. 11 It is useful to have things categorised in that way. 12 13 Mr Jones mentioned the passing of time. The world 14 will not finish if we don't finish this particular case 15 study this week, but time is both financially and in other 16 ways an extremely valuable commodity which must not be 17 squandered. 18 19 MR STEWART: I and Mr Moore are acutely aware of that but 20 in my defence may I say perhaps the obvious, that 21 Mr McAllum is introducing elements of conversations that we 22 have not heard about before. This is for the first time. 23 24 THE COMMISSIONER: You can make a submission about that in 25 due course. It may be soundly based wholly or it may be 26 soundly based in part. The introduction, of course, if it 27 is the case that he is introducing fresh elements, is 28 something that may not be surprising for a number of 29 reasons that Mr McAllum himself has explained. 30 31 MR STEWART: No, but -- 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: There is certain risk in going over old 34 ground. If you get a good answer it is a mistake to try 35 and get witnesses to say it a second time because sometimes 36 they won't. I don't propose to stop this yet, but, as 37 I said, there is a lot of force in what Mr Jones said. 38 39 MR STEWART: I understand the submission about the time. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: And I think the profitable aspect of 42 your questioning really, I think, has turned on a 43 Browne v Dunn type putting of the case type considerations. 44 45 MR STEWART: Yes. Could the witness please be taken to 46 page 103 of the - forgive me, Mr Commissioner, I am not 47 quite sure how to refer to it, but the document book,

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 542 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 MFI-1 -- 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: MFI-1 of this case study, yes, 4 volume 1, page 103. 5 6 THE WITNESS: What page? 7 8 MR STEWART: Q. Page 103. Perhaps we can look at 9 page 104 as well. Do you see page 104? 10 A. 104, house plan? 11 12 Q. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Go back to page 103. 16 A. 103. 17 18 Q. Does this indicate that you scanned certain drawings? 19 A. Correct. 20 21 Q. And those drawings were drawings that commence on 22 page 104? 23 A. Correct. 24 25 Q. They weren't the totality of the drawings concerning 26 the house, were they? 27 A. No. 28 29 Q. They were the drawings that you needed in order to be 30 able to price the windows? 31 A. Correct. 32 33 Q. Do you think you scanned those drawings on the day 34 they were handed to you by Mr Moore? 35 A. I couldn't tell. 36 37 Q. You would have scanned them pretty soon after you 38 received them, I'd suggest? 39 A. It all depends; depending on what I was doing at the 40 time. 41 42 Q. Could you go to page 98 of MFI-1, please. This is 43 three days before you scanned, let me call them, the window 44 drawings. 45 A. Correct. 46 47 Q. This is an email from Mr Moore in which he forwarded

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 543 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 on to you the email from Mr Mullan which attached his wife, 2 Di Moore's business card? 3 A. Di Graham's business card. 4 5 Q. Di Graham's business card? 6 A. Correct. 7 8 Q. And you were expecting that when it came to you from 9 Mr Moore, weren't you? 10 A. Yes, I was. 11 12 Q. Mr Moore has said nothing in that email, he has just 13 forwarded it on to you? 14 A. Correct. 15 16 Q. Is that generally the way he deals with emails? 17 A. If we had a discussion beforehand that he was going to 18 send me Di's details because she was the interior designer 19 on the Hanna house, that's all he would need to have done. 20 21 Q. Could you go to page 109. Here we see that you 22 forward the plans that you scanned to Bradnams, a window 23 supplier? 24 A. Correct. 25 26 Q. And you requested a price? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. Page 131 of MFI-1, here we find Mr Hanna's email to 30 you dealing with changes to the windows? 31 A. Correct. Well, in relation to Energy Efficiency 32 Report. 33 34 Q. That's your response to his email? 35 A. Correct. 36 37 Q. Your email of 22 April 2013 at 7.59am speaks of the 38 Energy Efficiency Report? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. And then if we go to pages 132 to 136 -- 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. -- you will see that Mr Hanna sends that Energy 45 Efficiency Report through to you? 46 A. Correct. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 544 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. And then at page 147 -- 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. -- we have your email to Bradnams attaching plans with 5 those red markings on them which you discussed with 6 Ms McNaughton yesterday? 7 A. Which we have been through, yes. 8 9 Q. And you made those changes in red ink? 10 A. In the red, yes. 11 12 Q. Is it the case that you got the Energy Efficiency 13 Report and they allowed you to make those changes? 14 A. No. 15 16 Q. You had a discussion with Mr Hanna about the windows, 17 didn't you? 18 A. Correct. 19 20 Q. It was based on that discussion with Mr Hanna that you 21 made these changes that you sent off to Bradnams shown at 22 page 147? 23 A. That's what I've already said, yes. 24 25 Q. Could you go to page 1944. I believe it is volume 6 26 of MFI-1. Do you have that? 27 A. 1994? 28 29 Q. 1944. It is on the screen beside you. 30 A. It is easier looking at the book. 31 32 Q. Okay. 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. This is something you are familiar with? 36 A. Something I'm familiar with. I don't recall it but 37 obviously I would have been at the time, yes. 38 39 Q. But it is a copy of an electronic document generated 40 by Outlook when someone sends an invitation to someone 41 else? 42 A. Correct. 43 44 Q. It indicates that the person sending the invitation 45 was you? 46 A. Correct. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 545 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. It indicates that the subject was "Discuss Cornubia"? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. It indicates that it was sent on 23 April at 4.51pm? 5 A. That's what it says. 6 7 Q. And does that roughly accord with your recollection? 8 Is that roughly when you think you sent this Outlook 9 invitation to Mr Moore and to Mr Wadsworth? 10 A. That's what the date indicates. 11 12 Q. That's likely to be the date you sent it out then? 13 A. Computer doesn't lie. 14 15 Q. And, as I said, you sent it to Mr Wadsworth and to 16 Mr Moore? 17 A. As it says. 18 19 Q. Down the bottom you have the message from you: 20 21 Glen 22 23 Meeting at Mirvac Office. 24 25 Regards 26 Mat 27 28 A. Correct. 29 30 Q. Could you go to page 146 of MFI-1, please? 31 A. 106? 32 33 Q. Page 146. This is Mr Wadsworth' response to your 34 invitation, isn't it? 35 A. Correct. 36 37 Q. 38 hi [Mat] 39 40 that should be ok, so ill see you then! 41 42 Thanks. 43 44 And then the -- 45 A. "Jobs On". 46 47 Q. "Jobs on" which seems to be the signature on his

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 546 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 emails? 2 A. That's it. 3 4 Q. A perfectly cordial response from this man? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. This demonstrates an enthusiasm by him to come and 8 participate in the meeting? 9 A. That's how he wrote his emails. 10 11 Q. That is how you interpreted this email, as expressing 12 an enthusiasm on the part of Mr Wadsworth to come to the 13 meeting? 14 A. No, it was expressing that he was accepting the 15 invitation. 16 17 Q. With an exclamation mark? 18 A. That's how he writes. He might have been yelling 19 then. 20 21 Q. Would you go to page 148, please. 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Do you recall getting that? 25 A. Well, obviously, it's an email that says from myself 26 to Adam. 27 28 Q. Do you recall getting the email from Eliza Davis that 29 you see at the foot of the page? 30 A. Down the bottom? Based on this email, then yes, 31 I would have received that, yes. 32 33 Q. So do you not recall it, apart from reading the email? 34 A. Correct. 35 36 Q. And I take it you don't recall your response: 37 38 All good. I will organise as long as Adam 39 is OK ... 40 41 A. Without seeing this email, correct. 42 43 Q. Can I suggest that you can't recall whether you ever 44 heard anything further from Mr Moore in response to your 45 invitation? 46 A. For this invitation? 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 547 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. Correct. 3 4 Q. That email of yours to Eliza Davis indicates that you 5 were prepared to go and speak with Mr Wadsworth alone, 6 doesn't it? 7 A. The email is from myself to Adam Moore. 8 9 Q. You knew you were responding to Elizabeth Davis, 10 didn't you? 11 A. Eliza Davis. 12 13 Q. Eliza Davis. Thank you for correcting that. 14 A. I was responding to Adam Moore's email which went to 15 both Eliza and Adam. Eliza had her own email address, so 16 if I wanted to talk to Eliza, I would have sent to her 17 email. 18 19 Q. You knew that your email would go to Eliza? 20 A. And to Adam. 21 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. Correct. 24 25 Q. But it would go to Eliza? 26 A. And to Adam, correct. 27 28 THE COMMISSIONER: We did cover this ground yesterday 29 afternoon, late. 30 31 MR STEWART: Q. Page 151 of MFI-1. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Bradnams sending him a quote? 35 A. Correct. 36 37 Q. Page 192 of MFI-2, this is an email from Di Graham to 38 you. 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. It says, in the opening words, that she met with the 42 client, as she puts it, the Hannas or one of the Hannas, 43 last Wednesday morning, so that is 1 May 2013? 44 A. 7 May. 45 46 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. I think Mr Stewart's point is that 47 "met with client last week in the morning", counting

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 548 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 backwards, gets you to Wednesday, 1 May. 2 A. Yes, correct. 3 4 MR STEWART: Q. Could you go to page 170 of MFI-1. Can I 5 ask you to pause before I ask you questions about page 170. 6 Is it the case that at this point the only drawings you had 7 of the Hanna house were those given to you by Mr Moore? 8 A. The only drawings? Correct. 9 10 Q. And they were the ones you scanned which we have 11 spoken of minutes ago? 12 A. The two drawings? No, there was a whole suite of 13 drawings. 14 15 Q. But you only scanned some of the drawings that 16 Mr Moore gave you? 17 A. Correct. 18 19 Q. If you go to page 170, and we can look at this through 20 to page 181, if you like, you agree that what those 21 documents show is that on that date you scanned more 22 detailed and numerous plans of the Hanna's house? 23 A. Correct. 24 25 Q. Before this date, 7 May, do you agree that the work 26 you had been doing had focused upon dealing with Di Graham? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. And dealing with Bradn ams over the windows? 30 A. Correct. 31 32 Q. And that was really all that you had done by that 33 stage? 34 A. Without seeing everything, it's hard to tell. 35 Between April and May, there's three weeks, so I may have 36 already sent things. 37 38 Q. Do you have a sense that there was a point in time 39 when you came to understand that the amount of work that 40 you would have to do for the Hannas was larger than you had 41 expected before then? 42 A. No. 43 44 Q. You gave evidence earlier today and, indeed, 45 yesterday, that you gave updates to Mr Moore? 46 A. Correct. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 549 M J McALLUM (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. What did you tell him? 2 A. I'd just tell him where the house was at, who was 3 doing the work, where the costs were. 4 5 Q. Where the costs were? 6 A. Well, if the costs were being covered by certain 7 trades or if certain trades needed to cover certain costs. 8 9 Q. Mr McAllum, I put to you that you had one conversation 10 with Mr Moore about the Hanna house and that the only 11 contact he had with you in relation to the Hanna house 12 beyond that was when he handed you the plans that you 13 scanned in April? 14 A. That's your opinion? 15 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Incorrect. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Stewart. I think 20 Mr McCarthy. 21 22 MR McCARTHY: Thank you for the opportunity of that extra 23 time overnight, Commissioner. I have no questions for this 24 witness. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: You have no questions. Very well. 27 Mr Johnson? 28 29 MR JOHNSON: Thank you also for the opportunity, 30 Commissioner, but I have no questions. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Mr Agius? 33 34 MR AGIUS: We have no questions. 35 36 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Agius. Mr Glynn? 37 38 MR GLYNN: I have no questions, Mr Commissioner. 39 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Jones? 41 42 MR JONES: May I have leave to ask 13 questions of 43 Mr McAllum, Commissioner? 44 45 THE COMMISSIONER: You can have leave to ask 26, if you 46 like. I am keeping count. 47

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.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 551 M J McALLUM (Mr Jones) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. When you were assisting David Hanna with the house at 3 Cornubia, were you doing so at anybody's direction? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Whose direction? 7 A. Adam's. 8 9 Q. Sorry? 10 A. Adam's. 11 12 Q. When you were providing direction to people issuing 13 tax invoices to falsely change their names to the Orion 14 job, were you doing so at anyone's direction? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Whose direction? 18 A. Adam's. 19 20 Q. What benefit were you receiving for helping a person 21 who you had, up until April 2013 prior to Mr Moore's 22 introduction to David Hanna, fulfilling those requests and 23 directions? 24 A. Absolutely nothing. 25 26 Q. What would you say to the suggestion that you were 27 doing this, that is, assisting David Hanna, on a frolic of 28 your own? 29 A. Untrue. I would not go out of my way to ruin my 30 reputation and put myself through this for no reason. 31 32 Q. Could Mr McAllum be shown MFI-1, page 148. What did 33 you mean by "as long as Adam is OK to proceed without him"? 34 A. I didn't have a relationship with Glen Wadsworth, so 35 as long as Adam wanted me to talk to him about what was to 36 be discussed with regards to the Cornubia house, then 37 I would discuss it with Glen. 38 39 Q. As at April 2013, did you have a membership or 40 relationship with any Union? 41 A. No. 42 43 Q. As at today's date, do you have a relationship or 44 membership with any Union? 45 A. No. 46 47 MR JONES: Those are the questions, thank you.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 552 M J McALLUM (Mr Jones) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Jones. Ms McNaughton, 3 anything further? 4 5 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. 6 7

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 553 M J McALLUM (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. Can you recall being asked by Mr Moore to attend the 4 meeting or can't you recall? 5 A. I do recall. 6 7 Q. What do you recall about that? 8 A. That Jenny was going to be coming in and we were going 9 to be discussing her requirements with regards to the 10 house. 11 12 Q. In relation to your first conversation with Mr Moore 13 that you have given, was that close to when that 14 conversation occurred? 15 A. It could have been close. It could have been a week 16 apart; I don't recall. 17 18 Q. Are you indicating by that it could have either 19 been within hours or days of that first meeting, or up to 20 a week? 21 A. It could have been, yes. 22 23 Q. Could it have been more than a week after? 24 A. I'm not sure. 25 26 Q. Could it have been months after? 27 A. No. 28 29 Q. What's the outside time? 30 A. It would have been prior to myself organising 31 a meeting with Di Graham. 32 33 Q. How long was the meeting with Mrs Hanna and Mr Moore? 34 A. I don't recall. It could have been 30 minutes; it 35 could have been 45 minutes. 36 37 Q. Somewhere in that range? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. So not two minutes? 41 A. No. 42 43 Q. But somewhere within the 30 to 45 minute range? 44 A. I'd say so, yes. 45 46 Q. When in the day can you recall it occurred? Early in 47 the morning, late at night, or anywhere in between? Can

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 554 M J McALLUM (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 you give -- 2 A. It could have been in the morning. It wouldn't have 3 been in the afternoon. 4 5 Q. Why do you say that? 6 A. I just feel that it was a morning meeting. 7 8 Q. How far in advance, if you can recall, were you 9 informed that this meeting would be occurring? For 10 example, did he say, "Jenny's here, come now", or did you 11 have prior notice of it, or something else? 12 A. I don't recall. It could have been the day before, it 13 could have been that morning. 14 15 Q. Would there be any diary entry or the like to record 16 your involvement in that meeting? 17 A. We wouldn't have taken notes, no. If Jenny had've 18 visited the office she would have signed the visitors' book 19 at the reception. 20 21 Q. What about just an appointment note in any sort of 22 diary system you keep? 23 A. I don't really keep diaries. 24 25 Q. If it was a 30 to 45 minute meeting was Cornubia 26 discussed for the whole of that time, to the best of your 27 recollection? 28 A. Correct. 29 30 Q. Can you recall who started talking at the meeting? 31 A. It would have been Adam. 32 33 Q. When you say "would have been" -- 34 A. I had no idea of the house, so Adam would have started 35 the conversation. 36 37 Q. Can you give as much detail as you can as to the 38 nature of what was discussed at that meeting? 39 A. It would have just been in relation to what needed to 40 be done, that the interior designer would be in contact 41 with her, that anything that - if she needed to talk to 42 someone, that I would be the contact and that I would be 43 going down to the house, organising, I would be in touch to 44 get details to clarify what needed to be done. 45 46 Q. Do you recall whether or not you took notes of that 47 meeting?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 555 M J McALLUM (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. I don't recall. 2 3 Q. Do you recall whether or not Mr Moore took notes of 4 that meeting? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 7 Q. Do you recall whether or not Mrs Hanna took notes of 8 that meeting? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 11 Q. Did you exchange phone numbers or email addresses, or 12 anything of that nature, at that meeting? 13 A. I possibly may have exchanged numbers with her but 14 I don't recall. I don't have a record of anything. 15 16 Q. So in that 30 to 45 minute period, how much of that 17 was taken up with Mrs Hanna speaking, do you recall? 18 A. No, I don't, to put a time on it, no, sorry. 19 20 Q. To what extent was, if you can recall, she asking 21 questions, or Mr Moore was speaking? Can you just give us 22 more of an idea as to the nature of the conversation that 23 was going on? 24 A. The discussion would have involved elements of what 25 needed to be done. 26 27 Q. But who was generating that information? Was that 28 Mr Moore or Mrs Hanna, or both, or you? 29 A. A lot of the discussion was between Adam and Jenny. 30 31 Q. Did you participate in the discussion as to the 32 details of what needed to be done? 33 A. At that point in time I didn't really have much 34 knowledge of what the extent was. 35 36 Q. Can you recall whether or not the plans were available 37 at that meeting and were being referred to? 38 A. I don't recall. 39 40 Q. Was there a table in this meeting room? 41 A. Yes, there was. 42 43 Q. Can you recall whether or not there was discussion 44 over any sorts of pieces of paper or was it just verbal 45 discussion? 46 A. Not with regards to the detail. The detail would have 47 been discussed between Di Graham and Jenny in order

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 556 M J McALLUM (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 to - with regards to her requirements, being that she was 2 coming in to the office to discuss the completion of 3 a house as a client to a builder. 4 5 Q. At that meeting was there a discussion as to what 6 trades you could help Mrs Hanna or the Hannas with and what 7 trades you couldn't? 8 A. No. 9 10 Q. So what -- 11 A. The discussion would have been along - she was looking 12 to complete the whole house, so in her mind she was - the 13 Hannas were engaging Mirvac to complete the house; that's 14 in her mind. She's come in as if she knows she's talking 15 to the person that's going to complete the house and she 16 will be put in contact with an interior designer to discuss 17 the contents of the house and that she could ask for 18 whatever she wanted. In her mind that was - this is her 19 dream home. 20 21 Q. If she was to be the contact for the Hannas - is that 22 what I understand was the arrangement? 23 A. The contact for Di to - with regards to finalising 24 information for the interior design. 25 26 Q. Did you understand that you were to deal with 27 Mrs Hanna in relation to the house, or Mr and Mrs Hanna? 28 A. It would be both. 29 30 Q. Was that discussed? 31 A. Probably not to the detail of it. Generally, I would 32 have expected to have discussed everything with David; 33 sometimes Jenny was on-site, so I would discuss with Jenny. 34 35 Q. As at the date of this meeting are you able to say 36 whether or not you had met David Hanna? 37 A. No, I had not. 38 39 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. 40 41 THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any objection to Mr McAllum 42 being excused from further attendance? Mr McAllum, you are 43 excused from further attendance on the summons, so you can 44 leave the witness box now, and if you want to you can leave 45 the hearing room too. 46 47 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 557 M J McALLUM (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 558 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 in Cornubia. 2 3 Q. How did you hear it? 4 A. Through David Hanna. 5 6 Q. Where were you and where was he when you heard about 7 it from David Hanna? 8 A. So I saw - prior to that, maybe a day or a week 9 before, I'm not too sure, but shortly before that I saw 10 David Hanna at South Bank and he asked could he come and 11 see me. 12 13 Q. Was that a chance meeting? 14 A. Yes, it was. He was with some people and he said, 15 "Oh, can I come and see you?" I didn't know what it was 16 about. 17 18 Q. How long, as at that time you had a chance meeting 19 with David Hanna at South Bank, had you known him? 20 A. For - I'm not quite sure. I'm not quite accurate on 21 the timing, but at least 10 years, I think. 22 23 Q. When did you first come to know him? 24 A. So I knew him through the BLF when he first came to 25 Queensland. 26 27 Q. Can I just ask you, when did you first start with 28 Mirvac? 29 A. In what year? 30 31 Q. Yes, what year. 32 A. I think about '96, I think. 33 34 Q. You were at Mirvac when you first knew him? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. What was your position at Mirvac when you first came 38 to know Mr Hanna? 39 A. I would have been a construction manager. 40 41 Q. In Brisbane? 42 A. Yes, in Brisbane, in Queensland, yes. 43 44 Q. For the whole of or a particular area, or what was 45 your position back then? 46 A. Yes. My position then, when I first would have met 47 him, would have been construction manager, so yes, I was

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 559 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 the only construction manager at that time when I first met 2 him. 3 4 Q. What was your responsibility at that time? 5 A. To basically deliver projects of Mirvac in Queensland, 6 so oversee the delivery of projects. 7 8 Q. It was a fairly senior position? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Who was your boss as at that time? 12 A. Geoff Dickens. 13 14 Q. Who was above him? 15 A. At that time, Chris Freeman. 16 17 Q. What was Geoff Dickens' job? 18 A. He was construction director. 19 20 Q. Of Queensland? 21 A. Correct. 22 23 Q. What about Chris Freeman? 24 A. He was the CEO of Queensland. 25 26 Q. You were third in charge? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. What was Mr Hanna's role, so far as you understood it, 30 when you first came to know him in 1997? 31 A. I think he was an - I think he was an organiser, but 32 he was never on any of my projects. 33 34 Q. How was it that you came across him? Was it 1996 or 35 1997? 36 A. I think - I think - I'm not too sure; around that 37 period of time. So I would have seen him - maybe he would 38 have come on to the job through a rally, or something like 39 that, if they were having an information day or whatever, 40 so -- 41 42 Q. You said he was never on any of your projects? 43 A. No, so he was never a direct organiser on any of my 44 projects. 45 46 Q. What Union was he with in 1996 or 1997? 47 A. The BLF.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 560 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Did you have BLF members on your project? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. Indeed, what other unions involving construction 6 workers did you have on your projects? 7 A. So we had the CFMEU, we had the Electrical Trades 8 Union, the Plumbers' Union; they were basically the ones. 9 10 Q. And the CFMEU and the BLF at that time covered the 11 same sort of workers, did they? 12 A. No, different. 13 14 Q. Different? 15 A. CFMEU covered tradesmen and the BLF used to cover 16 labourers, the dogmen, I think dogmen back then, and also 17 concreters, steel fixers. 18 19 Q. Back then on the Mirvac projects where there were BLF 20 members, to your knowledge were they working under a Union 21 EBA? 22 A. Back then, yes. 23 24 Q. In all cases? 25 A. On our projects, I would say in the majority of cases, 26 yes. Mirvac had an EBA, so yes. 27 28 Q. He was an organiser, so that means that he was, to 29 your knowledge, doing what? 30 A. I think he was an organiser in that period. He would 31 have been - there would have been certain projects that he 32 would be looking after, or a certain area. 33 34 Q. Did you come to know him better over the years? 35 A. Yes. The first real contact I had with him, as far as 36 getting to know him, was probably in 2011. 37 38 Q. How did that come about? 39 A. He approached us - sorry, prior to that, prior to 40 that, we would have - he would have been involved 41 in - which I would have been involved in - negotiating new 42 EBAs, so prior to that there would have been some 43 involvement there but not much, but where I probably got to 44 know him the most was when we rebuilt the Tafua house, 45 which was a house at Logan that burnt down, and there were 46 11 people killed in it, family members killed. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 561 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. That was in 2011 that you were involved? 2 A. Yes, 2011, maybe early 2012, I think. 3 4 Q. How did it come about that you came to know Mr Hanna 5 better because of that house? 6 A. So Mr Hanna approached Hutchinson Builders and then 7 came and saw me and approached us about giving a hand and 8 making some donations to rebuild the house of this family. 9 10 Q. In 2011, are you able to indicate what you understood 11 Mr Hanna's position was within the BLF? 12 A. At that stage he was Assistant Secretary, I think. It 13 was either late 2011 or early 2012. 14 15 Q. He came to see you personally, did he? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. What was your position in 2011? 19 A. So 2011, I was Construction Director of Queensland. 20 2012, in March 2012, in March/April 2012, I then became 21 Construction Manager of Queensland and WA. 22 23 Q. By this time this was a more senior position than the 24 one you had indicated in 1996-1997? 25 A. Correct, yes. 26 27 Q. Were you, essentially, the most senior construction 28 dedicated person? 29 A. No. So in 2011, I was Construction Director of 30 Queensland and I reported to the CEO of Mirvac Queensland. 31 32 Q. Yes. 33 A. So at that point in Queensland then I was probably the 34 most senior construction person. 35 36 Q. Yes. 37 A. In 2012, in March or April - I'm not sure of the 38 timing but it was sort of in the first half of 2012, I was 39 being Construction Director of Queensland and WA, and 40 I reported to Jason Vieusseux, so I no longer reported to 41 a CEO, I reported to the National Construction Director. 42 43 Q. Because it became a nationally based hierarchy at that 44 time -- 45 A. Yes, so there was a -- 46 47 Q. -- rather than a State-based one?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 562 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Correct. 2 3 Q. But relevantly, day to day on the ground in 4 Queensland, you were the most senior construction person in 5 Mirvac? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. And Mr Hanna approached you in relation to the house? 9 A. Correct. 10 11 Q. Did he come in to your office? 12 A. He came in to my office, yes. 13 14 Q. And what did you discuss? 15 A. We discussed whether - he asked us whether we would be 16 prepared or willing to be involved in the house. 17 18 Q. And you agreed? 19 A. So I checked with the CEO, actually, so it would have 20 been in 2011 or early 2012. So I checked with 21 Matt Wallace, our CEO, who then - I obtained permission 22 from him. He spoke to Nick Collishaw who was the Mirvac 23 CEO, the overall Mirvac CEO. He obtained permission from 24 Nick and we basically helped out with rebuilding the house. 25 26 Q. How long would that project take? 27 A. It was fairly quick; I think eight to 12 weeks, it was 28 very quick. 29 30 Q. What contributions did Mirvac make towards that? 31 A. We put a site manager out there. 32 33 Q. Who was that? 34 A. The site manager we had there, I think, was 35 Nick Wickson. 36 37 Q. Apart from putting a site manager out there, what 38 else, if anything, did Mirvac do? 39 A. We bought some materials for the house. I'm not sure 40 exactly what materials we bought, but we bought materials 41 for the house, and we just assisted in finishing the house. 42 We would have supplied some labourers and it just assisted 43 building the house. 44 45 Q. So a project manager -- 46 A. No, site manager. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 563 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. I beg your pardon, site manager, some materials and 2 some labourers? 3 A. Some labourers. 4 5 Q. Do you think it was a matter of weeks or months that 6 that was going on? 7 A. Oh, months. 8 9 Q. Months? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. Did you have anything other than one meeting with 13 Mr Hanna about that project? 14 A. So that was in the initial part. Then we went to, 15 I think, about two ceremonies throughout the building of 16 the house that they had. They had media and they had - 17 I think at one of the meetings that they had the Premier 18 there at the time. Not a meeting, sorry, a hand-over at 19 the end, but I saw him - through the construction of that 20 house, I probably saw him three or four times. 21 22 Q. At the site of the house? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. In relation to what? 26 A. Some sort of ceremony at that stage. 27 28 Q. And you spoke to him when you saw him on those three 29 or four occasions? 30 A. Yes, most definitely. 31 32 Q. You say you came to know him better as a result of 33 that process? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. That went through to 2012? 37 A. Yes. So that was in - I think we handed over in 38 about - some time in 2012, early 2012. 39 40 Q. Did you have any further contact with him between the 41 time of the completion of that house and when you had the 42 chance meeting at South Bank? 43 A. So, the only contact I would have had with him from 44 there till a chance meeting would have been at boxing 45 events that were held that were either BLF or CFMEU 46 charities, and that would be about it, or charity events 47 that were Union based or industry based. I think I saw him

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 564 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 in a Mates in Construction lunch, so that's the only time 2 I saw him then was socially. 3 4 Q. In relation to your attending those sorts of events, 5 so BLF or CFMEU charities, or Mates in Construction, do you 6 know how your ticket was covered for your attendance at 7 those events? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 10 Q. And how was that covered? 11 A. So we're talking - if we go prior to - well, there's 12 a period from - prior to March 2012, March/April 2012, we 13 would attend with subcontractors, so subcontractors would 14 buy a table at times, or Mirvac would buy a table, and 15 that's how we would attend those functions. After 16 March '13 - March/April, sorry, it would have been 17 probably May '13, that changed. 18 19 Q. How did that change? 20 A. Well, how it changed is previously with the old CEO, 21 if we required a table to a particular event, we would 22 purchase a table, Mirvac Queensland, would purchase 23 a table. In 2013, in about May, there was a change of 24 policy that we weren't to buy any tables for unions through 25 the Mirvac business. 26 27 Q. Just clarifying the date of this change, when you 28 first gave your answer, just the previous one, you started 29 off saying prior to March 2012, March/April 2012, then you 30 changed to March '13, then March/April, and then you 31 say May '13, so can you just clarify that date. 32 A. Sorry. So, in around April/May -- 33 34 Q. What year? 35 A. -- in 2012 is when we changed the policy of getting 36 tables. 37 38 Q. So as at May 2012. How then were they covered? 39 A. So they were covered - first, they were covered 40 through going to subcontractors on particular jobs and 41 saying, "Will you get a table for this event?" That would 42 be borne by the subcontractor at his cost. If we couldn't 43 get it to happen, then the policy was that we would get the 44 subcontractor to pay for it and we would reimburse the 45 subcontractor through a variation. 46 47 Q. And that variation would be described in a way which

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 565 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 would not reflect the fact that it was covering a Union 2 charity event, is that the position? 3 A. Correct. 4 5 Q. And it would, in fact, contain false details in 6 relation to the variation? 7 A. Correct, in some cases, yes. 8 9 Q. You knew that at the time? 10 A. Yes, I knew that. 11 12 Q. Who made the decision that the costs could be covered 13 in such a way? 14 A. So who directed that? 15 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Jason Vieusseux. 18 19 Q. When did he make that direction? 20 A. Around about April/May 2012. 21 22 Q. 2012? 23 A. 2012. 24 25 Q. How did he make that direction? 26 A. He spoke to me about it. He had a conversation with 27 me. 28 29 Q. What did he say? 30 A. We had three conversations on this, so - he told me 31 that - so in order - so there was no issue with getting 32 tables and attending events, but we could not pay for them 33 through Mirvac Head Office, we had to pay for them through 34 the jobs and they had to be concealed so that you couldn't 35 tell that we were attending - that we were paying for Union 36 charity events. That was the first meeting. 37 38 Q. Yes. 39 A. The second meeting was in about November 2012 -- 40 41 Q. What was said at that meeting? 42 A. The second meeting was in November in 2012. 43 44 Q. Yes. 45 A. What it was about, in the second meeting, Jason came 46 to me and said that Brett Draffen, who is the CEO of 47 development, so he was Jason's boss, had a phone call from

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 566 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 James Mackenzie, who was the Chairman of Mirvac, that we 2 had paid for an event through the books - sorry, we'd paid 3 for an event for a CFMEU charity, but what happened was it 4 was actually - when we looked into it, we found out that it 5 was an event before it was - it was an old event, so we 6 were able to explain it. 7 8 Q. You said there were three conversations. What was the 9 third? 10 A. And the third conversation was after - so that was the 11 first conversation - the second conversation. The third 12 conversation was about two or three days after that one 13 with James Mackenzie. At that period of time 14 James Mackenzie was down in Victoria. They were looking at 15 having - getting a task force together to look at 16 construction costs in Victoria, increasing construction 17 costs, and there was - the Federal Government was pushing 18 Mackenzie and I think the Victorian Government weren't keen 19 for that to happen and there was scrutiny on the unions 20 within Mirvac, there was scrutiny on the unions to ensure 21 that we didn't have any - sorry, to ensure that we didn't 22 pay for any events through Mirvac's accounts, basically. 23 So the third conversation was two days after that. 24 25 Q. But the first conversation that you mentioned was also 26 about Mirvac not allowing payments to the Union? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. How did that come about? 30 A. So that was six months prior. 31 32 Q. Do you know why that came about? 33 A. I think - yes, I do know how that came about. I think 34 that came about because at that period - I have to go back 35 two months, basically -- 36 37 Q. Two months back from where? 38 A. From May 2012. 39 40 Q. That takes us back to March. 41 A. When we became a national company and I was made 42 Construction Director, the national construction entity, 43 I was made Construction Director of WA. 44 45 Q. As well as Queensland? 46 A. As well as Queensland. WA at that stage was not doing 47 any construction as such, major construction. The

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 567 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Construction Division there had basically closed down to 2 a point, or wound down to a point where it wasn't 3 delivering any projects. Myself and - so I was appointed 4 WA Construction Director with a view of looking at getting 5 construction going over in WA again or, at the least, to 6 manage a project that they wanted, that Mirvac projects 7 wanted to build in WA, and that was the ACB Office Tower 8 which was an office tower and commercial tower in the 9 middle of Perth. 10 11 When we got involved in it, meaning Construction got 12 involved with it, Perth Development Company, Mirvac Perth, 13 had already gone out to five builders - I think four or 14 five builders - and they had obtained pricing to get this 15 built by a different builder, so for Mirvac projects. 16 Jason was very, very keen to build this project ourselves 17 rather than - even though they had the whole tender race, 18 rather than let an external builder build it, so then we 19 went about converting that from a tendered project to 20 a project that Mirvac Constructions would deliver 21 themselves. 22 23 When we looked at - being a developer, very rarely do 24 you get to look at other builders' prices because 25 a developer, you're not contestable, you're actually - you 26 end up getting a cost plan and a price and a budget and 27 then you say, "Okay, that's our budget and we will deliver 28 this building." When we got to look at the five builders 29 that were involved, there was one non-EBA company whose 30 price was probably about 15 per cent cheaper than the other 31 four. 32 33 Q. Yes. 34 A. We then basically started to look at how we could 35 start delivering because, like, it was a $200 million job. 36 Then the decision was made that we needed to start looking 37 at how we start delivering buildings, how we start - turn 38 our construction company into a non-EBA company; so that 39 was the long-term strategy at that stage. 40 41 Then shortly after that the call was made not to 42 basically pay for any charities or events. Still attend 43 them, there was no issue attending them, but we didn't want 44 to be seen as Mirvac actually paying for any Union events. 45 46 Q. When the conversation initially, the first 47 conversation, occurred with Jason Vieusseux, was there

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 568 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 a discussion about concealing the payment? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. From whom was it to be concealed? 5 A. I guess it was to be concealed from the public so you 6 couldn't tell that we'd basically paid for tables, we'd 7 paid anything to the CFMEU or the BLF. 8 9 Q. How would the public find out who paid, in any event? 10 A. Well, I mean, you could find - if you went through our 11 accounts you could see. So prior - as I said, prior 12 to - the second conversation and third conversation, that 13 happened very close to each other -- 14 15 Q. When were they? 16 A. They were around about October or November 2012. 17 Those conversations - obviously, someone had - someone in 18 the public had got wind that we had paid for an event and 19 it was through a period where, as I explained before, 20 James Mackenzie was going to basically - he was going to be 21 involved in that task force, looking at construction costs, 22 and there were issues over that. 23 24 Q. How did you learn that someone in the public had 25 learnt that you had paid for an event? 26 A. Brett Draffen had spoken to Jason Vieusseux and 27 Jason Vieusseux spoke to me, so I was actually with Jason. 28 I don't recall whether Brett was in the room at the time, 29 whether I was in Sydney and Brett was in the room or it was 30 a telephone conversation, but I was there. 31 32 Q. What was Jason Vieusseux's position at the time? He 33 was -- 34 A. National Construction Director. 35 36 Q. He was essentially your new practical -- 37 A. He was my boss, yes. 38 39 Q. What's the relationship between Mirvac not paying for 40 Union events and the process of becoming a non-EBA company? 41 A. So obviously, when we were over in Perth, when we were 42 looking at that particular project and we noted that 43 there's been non-EBA, there was definitely a cost 44 advantage, or we could see a cost advantage in that. In 45 Queensland at that time, too, we had projects, and Sydney, 46 we had projects struggling to stack up, meaning that our 47 cost per square metre was too expensive for the amount of

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 569 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 dollars that we could sell the product for. So our 2 construction costs were creeping, they were getting - they 3 were too expensive because we were under full-blown EBAs 4 and I'd note that typically if you or - our view was that 5 if you didn't have an EBA then it would - you know, that 6 you could bring your construction costs down. 7 8 Q. I should have asked you when you first came in the 9 witness box, where do you currently work? 10 A. I'm self-employed at the moment. 11 12 Q. When you left Mirvac, where did you go? 13 A. Lend Lease. 14 15 Q. How long were you there? 16 A. About - roughly about 14 months. I was head of 17 constructions at Lend Lease. 18 19 Q. Just going back to the relationship between not paying 20 for Union charity events and becoming a non-EBA company, 21 how does that relate? 22 A. How does it relate? 23 24 Q. Yes. Like, why would Mirvac stop -- 25 A. Well, typically - like, non-EBA companies would not 26 sponsor or attend Union functions, so that was in - that's 27 one case. The second case is a public company, Mirvac, 28 a public company, did not want to be seen to be supporting 29 the Union. 30 31 Q. But that was only after a certain point, was it, in 32 time? 33 A. That was in, yes, April/May 2012. 34 35 Q. To your knowledge, did Mirvac succeed in becoming 36 a non-EBA company? 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. And why, do you know? 40 A. I don't know, I can't answer that question. 41 We actually - in Queensland we started to look at doing 42 non-EBA jobs and we started to look at some non-EBA 43 contractors, but I mean it was an evolving thing, so 44 I don't know if they - I believe they've still got an EBA. 45 46 Q. While you were at Mirvac, did you ever do any non-EBA 47 work?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 570 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. We tried to do some non-EBA work. We used non-EBA 2 contractors, yes. 3 4 Q. How many projects did that occur on, to your 5 knowledge? 6 A. Two. 7 8 Q. How large were they? 9 A. They were only small; they were out at Orion, the two 10 projects out at Orion. 11 12 Q. Which projects at Orion? 13 A. Pad site 1 and Pad site 2. 14 15 Q. And they were reasonably small compared to what Mirvac 16 normally does? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Was that a deliberate strategy that they were non-EBA 20 projects -- 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. -- or was it just how it worked out? 24 A. No, it was a deliberate strategy. When we priced them 25 originally, when we did the cost plan originally on them, 26 we cost planned as EBA and then we did a non-EBA cost plan, 27 which was probably about - and I'm trying to recall the 28 actual percentage, but maybe 12 per cent cheaper, more cost 29 effective, and with the non-EBA cost plan the project 30 stacked up. 31 32 Q. Did that create any controversy for Mirvac, that they 33 were non-EBA projects, that is, the Pad 1 and the Pad 2 34 projects? 35 A. Controversy from whom? 36 37 Q. Anyone. 38 A. We had discussions with unions in respect to 39 particular contractors that we were using there. 40 41 Q. What Unions did you have discussions with? 42 A. I think the CFMEU and the BLF. 43 44 Q. Were they pleased with the decision or not pleased? 45 A. We put the case up that they were very small projects. 46 They -- 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 571 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. I am sorry, could you answer my question? Were the 2 Unions pleased or not pleased? 3 A. Oh, not pleased. 4 5 Q. How did you learn that they were not pleased? 6 A. Well, they came on to the project and said, "Why do 7 you have these non-EBA contractors?" 8 9 Q. Who came on to -- 10 A. Sorry, there's two parts to that. So how did I learn 11 that they were not pleased? 12 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. On a particular project they came on and said, "You've 15 got some non-EBA contractors on your project", and as far 16 as the - that was the BLF. And as far as the CFMEU went 17 then I had spoken to the CFMEU and prior to engaging some 18 contractors, I told them that I wanted to engage this 19 contractor, told them - obviously, they knew that they 20 didn't have an EBA, but eventually they let us use that 21 contractor. 22 23 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time? 24 25 THE COMMISSIONER: The aspect of time which is weighing 26 heavily in my estimation of convenience is the desirability 27 of finishing at least Mr Moore today. I suppose it is 28 wildly over-optimistic to expect that we could finish 29 Mr Hanna today. 30 31 MS McNAUGHTON: I don't know quite yet, but we still have 32 some time to go. 33 34 THE COMMISSIONER: How long do you want? 35 36 MS McNAUGHTON: Ten minutes. 37 38 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The hearing will resume at 20 to 39 12. 40 41 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 42 43 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 44 45 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sir, your said the Union came on-site; 46 was that to the Pad site 47 A. Yes, the BLF, yes, they came on-site to the Pad site.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 572 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 I think it was Pad site 2, I think, yes. 2 3 Q. How do you know that? 4 A. Because one of my guys from site sent an email. 5 6 Q. Who was that? 7 A. I think Marco Bedano, yes. 8 9 Q. He sent you an email and, what, said that they were 10 about to come or that they had come? 11 A. They had come and that they'd picked up that three of 12 the contractors that we had there did not have EBAs. 13 14 Q. Technically speaking, is it the case that 15 subcontractors don't have to have EBAs but their conditions 16 have to be as good as an EBA, is that the position? 17 A. Technically speaking, yes, I think that's correct. 18 19 Q. Do you have an understanding of what it was, in fact, 20 that the Unions were complaining about? 21 A. They -- 22 23 Q. The Union, the BLF? 24 A. They made note that we had three contractors on-site 25 that didn't have an EBA, and obviously, the Union would 26 have preferred that they did have an EBA. 27 28 Q. An actual agreement? 29 A. Correct. 30 31 Q. Even though, technically speaking, the Mirvac EBA 32 didn't require that? 33 A. No. So typically, when subcontractors come - so 34 Mirvac EBA had nothing to do with those contractors 35 on-site. 36 37 Q. Right. 38 A. So the Mirvac EBA is basically for the Mirvac 39 employees. On that particular job we had three contractors 40 that didn't have an EBA and that's what the Union was 41 saying. They were pointing out to us that we had three 42 contractors that didn't have an EBA and they would have 43 preferred those contractors, obviously, to have an EBA. 44 45 Q. Once you learnt that, did anything further happen 46 about this issue? 47 A. No. I think - we spoke to - I spoke at that stage to

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 573 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Kane Pearson. 2 3 Q. Of the BLF? 4 A. Of the BLF. 5 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Explained to him that those three 8 contractors - I think one was - no, I can't recall who the 9 second one was, and there was another one - another guy who 10 was, like, a cleaning contractor who just used to do the 11 amenities on-site, and I spoke to Kane Pearson and 12 explained to him because of the size of the project, it was 13 only a small project, that we had issues obtaining pricing 14 for it from subcontractors, and that's why we were using 15 those contractors. 16 17 Q. When was this controversy occurring? 18 A. I don't know the exact date. 19 20 Q. What position did Kane Pearson, to your knowledge, 21 have at the time that you had a discussion with him? 22 A. He was an organiser, I think - I think. 23 24 Q. Why did you speak to him as opposed to someone else 25 within the BLF? 26 A. Because he - I knew Kane Pearson because he was on 27 a couple of our projects. 28 29 Q. How long had this controversy been bubbling at the 30 Pad 1 and Pad 2 sites? 31 A. Well, it wasn't really a controversy. All throughout 32 Queensland at that period of time there was a push to make, 33 sure from the Union, that all subcontractors had EBAs. 34 35 Q. Yes. Earlier, I think you'd indicated at Pad 1 and 36 Pad 2, those sites, that there had been an issue with the 37 Union? 38 A. That's the same thing. 39 40 Q. Right. 41 A. So the one you are talking about now at the moment 42 I think is Pad 2, the one -- 43 44 Q. I am asking you. 45 A. Well, the one that a BLF organiser came out to was 46 Pad 2, and Pad 1, we spoke to the CFMEU about using non-EBA 47 contractors on Pad 1.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 574 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Was the BLF involved with Pad 1? 3 A. No, I don't think we had too many issues there with 4 the BLF on Pad 1. 5 6 Q. Can I return to the time where you spoke to Mr Hanna 7 when he bumped into you at South Bank. 8 A. So this is in relation to the house? 9 10 Q. Yes. Were you sitting down, standing up, passing each 11 other on the street? What were you doing? 12 A. We passed each other. 13 14 Q. And he stopped and spoke to you? 15 A. Sorry. I think he was in a coffee shop. 16 17 Q. Right. 18 A. And I passed by and said hello to him and he said to 19 me, "Can I come and meet you?" 20 21 Q. Did you sit down and talk to him or did you stay 22 standing? 23 A. No, he was with people. 24 25 Q. It was a short conversation, was it? 26 A. Very short. 27 28 Q. And he said, "Can I come and meet you?" 29 A. Correct. 30 31 Q. And that's all? 32 A. That was it, yes. He didn't tell -- 33 34 Q. Did he say what about? 35 A. No. 36 37 Q. And did you say, "Yes"? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Did he arrange to come and meet you? 41 A. So I - yes, he did. He rang me and he came and saw 42 me. 43 44 Q. Where did he see you? 45 A. He saw me at our office. 46 47 Q. Did he sign in?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 575 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. To the best of my recollection he came to our office. 2 3 Q. Did he sign in? 4 A. I don't know. 5 6 Q. Is it the practice that people who visit the office 7 sign in? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. So far as you were aware, he came up in the ordinary 11 course? He wasn't with someone such that he didn't need to 12 sign in, or something to that effect, or don't you know? 13 A. No, I wouldn't - well, you have to sign in. You come 14 - so when you come up to the old office, you - sorry, when 15 you come up to Mirvac's office in Adelaide Street, you end 16 up in reception. 17 18 Q. Right. 19 A. The a receptionist there. 20 21 Q. Were you informed that he had arrived by the 22 receptionist? 23 A. I believe so, yes. 24 25 Q. Did you meet with Mr Hanna? 26 A. Yes, I did. 27 28 Q. Where did you meet with him? 29 A. It would have been in our office. 30 31 Q. Where in your office? 32 A. In the - in a meeting room in our office. 33 34 Q. A meeting room? 35 A. More than likely, yes. 36 37 Q. Well, I am just asking you if you can recall. 38 A. Yes, I would have met him in a meeting room in our 39 office. 40 41 Q. He was already there when you came in, or did you take 42 him in? 43 A. I would have come out to reception and then took him 44 in. 45 46 Q. Can you recall that? 47 A. Not - no.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 576 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Can you recall meeting him, though - having a meeting 3 with him in a room at the Mirvac office? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. What did he say and what did you say? 7 A. So, he came to the office and he told me that he was 8 really impressed with our finishes that we did at the Tafua 9 house. He was building a house. I didn't know at that 10 point it was at Cornubia, he just told me that he was 11 building a house, and that he wanted contact with a Mirvac 12 interior designer. In the first instance, that's what he 13 told me. 14 15 Q. Was that the sole content of that discussion or was 16 there more discussion? 17 A. He - no. So he told me he wanted a contact with the 18 Mirvac interior designer. He told me in that discussion 19 that he was no good with colours, in picking colours and 20 stuff, that's as he said, and that, so we spoke about that. 21 22 Q. Well, if he needed a - if he wanted contact with the 23 Mirvac interior designer, why did he need to go and discuss 24 that he was no good with colours with you? 25 A. Well, he said he needed an interior designer because 26 he was no good at picking colours. 27 28 Q. Is that how the conversation went? 29 A. Yeah. 30 31 Q. So, can you go back to the beginning. You said 32 "hello" to each other? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. And what was said? 36 A. So in the first instance - so he said - we greeted 37 each other. He spoke - we spoke for a little time on the 38 Tafua house and what a great result it was. He told me in 39 that particular conversation that he was really impressed 40 with the finishes because obviously we had - Mirvac are 41 very well known for finishing and that - that was the first 42 part of the conversation, about what a great job the Tafua 43 house was. 44 45 The second part of the conversation was that he was 46 after an interior designer and could I recommend someone 47 from Mirvac, and, in that part of the conversation, he told

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 577 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 me that he was no good at picking colours and schemes and 2 stuff. 3 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. Then the last part of the conversation was - so after 6 we spoke about - well, do you want me to tell you what my 7 answer to the interior designer was? 8 9 Q. I want you to tell me, if you would be kind enough to, 10 the full content of the conversation with David Hanna? 11 A. So the full content of the conversation is that we 12 spoke about the Tafua house, what a great result it was, 13 what a good thing it was. Then we spoke - he asked me 14 about an interior designer, if I could recommend him 15 someone from Mirvac. I told him that I couldn't recommend 16 someone from Mirvac, because Mirvac had centralised their 17 design and we had no interior designers in Queensland. 18 I did, however, know an interior designer that I could 19 recommend who - and I'd seen her work because her husband, 20 or partner, had bought Mirvac apartments previously and had 21 done the interior design in them, so I told him that 22 I would get the contact details to him for that particular 23 interior designer. 24 25 Q. You said you had seen her work; why? 26 A. Because her husband had bought apartments from Mirvac 27 before, and she actually did the interior design. So her 28 husband -- 29 30 Q. How does that work? Can you just explain that? 31 A. So, her partner is Dave Mullan. He has bought - off 32 the plan he has bought Mirvac apartments. 33 34 Q. How many? 35 A. He bought one at the Pier, I think he combined two 36 units at the Pier. He's bought one at Efram Island, and 37 I think he bought one, but I'm not 100 per cent sure, one 38 at Cutter's Landing. 39 40 Q. Right. Well, how do you know he had bought 41 apartments? 42 A. Because I build apartments and I know who buys 43 apartments. 44 45 Q. Do you? 46 A. Yes. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 578 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Do you know everyone who has bought a Mirvac 2 apartment, do you? 3 A. Well, on the contract - so when we build apartments, 4 if there's any changes to that particular apartment - 5 I wouldn't say I know everyone, but if there's any change 6 to those particular apartments, they have the people's 7 names on them, so, on the contract. 8 9 Q. So you say - sorry. You say that Mr Mullan had bought 10 three or four apartments? 11 A. I know he bought two and combined one. I know he 12 bought one at Efram Island and I know - I'm pretty sure he 13 bought one at Cutter's Landing. 14 15 Q. And how did the fact that he had bought apartments 16 from Mirvac mean that you knew anything about what his 17 partner did? 18 A. Right. So his partner did all the interior design on 19 the apartment at Pier, which is at Newstead. 20 21 Q. How did you come to know that? 22 A. Because I'm the Construction Director. 23 24 Q. Yes. Do you go and personally look at the finishes of 25 every apartment that is sold? 26 A. No. Well, actually, we try - I try to, but 27 I don't - I can't say I've looked at every single finish of 28 apartments ever sold, but it's one of the 29 Mirvac - typically the Construction Director would go 30 through and check the level of finishes in apartments when 31 we're about to hand over. 32 33 Q. Are you saying that she did all of the finishes? 34 A. In - within her - no. What happened was that they'd 35 bought an apartment at Pier which is a project in Brisbane. 36 37 Q. Yes, but can I just stop you there. Wouldn't that 38 have been finished by Mirvac up to a certain point? 39 A. Yes, up to a certain point, but they bought - bought 40 the apartment off a plan and instead of the standard Mirvac 41 finishes that we had, they said, "We want these finishes." 42 43 Q. Right. And did Mirvac cause those finishes to be 44 done? 45 A. Correct. So they did - so when they entered into 46 a contract with Mirvac Realty, with Mirvac Projects, they 47 said "Delete this, this, this, this, this", whatever it

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 579 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 was, whatever finishes they deleted, and then the interior 2 designer, which Di is, designed her own finishes. 3 4 Q. So you took a particular interest in that, did you, 5 and you checked it out? 6 A. Not particular, but I mean I went through nearly every 7 apartment. 8 9 Q. And you found out that Di Graham had done these 10 apartments - is it two combined into one? 11 A. Yes, one 12 13 Q. You found that out, did you? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. Was that at a time when Mirvac still had an interior 17 design team in Queensland? 18 A. Yes. Umm - yes. 19 20 Q. So that had stuck in your mind, had it? 21 A. Yes, I knew his partner. I knew Dave Mullan's partner 22 was an interior designer because I'd seen that particular 23 unit. 24 25 Q. So you had this conversation with Mr Hanna and you 26 said that there was no longer, did you, interior designers 27 based in Brisbane belonging to Mirvac? 28 A. That's correct. 29 30 Q. Something to that effect. 31 A. They were centralised. So when the business was 32 centralised, they were centralised. 33 34 Q. And you suggested Ms Graham? 35 A. Correct. 36 37 Q. Did anything else get discussed at that meeting? 38 A. Yes. So after that, the other thing that was 39 discussed was he advised me that he was having troubles 40 procuring windows, getting windows, buying windows, due to 41 lead time. So, obviously when he was going and speaking 42 to - well, I know I'm only assuming that. He told me that 43 he had issues procuring windows, and asked me if I could 44 get him a price on windows. 45 46 Q. Is that all that was discussed? 47 A. That was all that was discussed.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 580 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. You are absolutely certain about that? 3 A. Absolutely certain. 4 5 Q. You were a busy man at that time; is that right? 6 A. Very. 7 8 Q. And Mr Hanna, what was his position at that time? 9 A. State Secretary, I think. State Secretary of the BLF. 10 11 Q. And you are saying -- 12 A. No, sorry. Yes, I don't know whether they had 13 amalgamated by then. So he was either State Secretary of 14 the BLF or President of the CFMEU, one or the other. 15 16 Q. And you are saying that he came in personally to see 17 you, to ask for the name of an interior designer, and he 18 had a meeting with you just about that? 19 A. And to see if we could procure - get a price for him 20 to procure windows. 21 22 Q. Do you know why he couldn't have simply given you 23 a phone call? 24 A. No. 25 26 Q. You are honestly saying to this Royal Commission that 27 he was attending in person to discuss getting a contact 28 name for an interior designer and a price for windows? He 29 came in in person just to do that? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. And that there was nothing else discussed? 33 A. Correct. 34 35 Q. How long did that meeting take? 36 A. Not long. I don't have the exact time of that 37 meeting, but less than 15 minutes. 38 39 Q. What did you say, if anything, during the course of 40 that meeting? 41 A. So, I told him to get me the plans. I don't know 42 whether he emailed them to me or he dropped them off to me. 43 I said, "Get me a set of plans, I'll get you a price on 44 windows." I told him that I would get him Di's contact 45 details - Di Mullan's contact details in that meeting, and 46 then - and that was basically it. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 581 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. You ended up with Mr Hanna's plans? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 4 Q. You can't quite remember how you got them, is that 5 what you're saying? 6 A. So I don't know whether he emailed them or he gave me 7 a hard copy, I can't recall, but I did end up with his 8 drawings. 9 10 Q. So you ended up with the plans? 11 A. Correct. 12 13 Q. What did you do? 14 A. Then I went and saw Mat McAllum who worked for us, 15 he's a design manager that worked for us. I took - I think 16 I would have taken the drawings with me, and said that I'd 17 spoken to Dave Hanna. I put Dave Hanna - I was going to 18 get him contact details for Di Graham and for him to chase 19 up a price for windows, told him that. I also told him in 20 that conversation if he needs contact details for 21 subcontractors, to supply those contractors' details, phone 22 numbers to him, and I also told him to look after Hanna. 23 24 Q. Why did you say that? 25 A. Because that's the sort of language I'd use. 26 27 Q. But Mr Hanna hadn't asked for anything other than, 28 according to you, Di Graham's contact details after her 29 being recommended to you and a window price? 30 A. Correct. 31 32 Q. So, why is it that you went on to ask Mr McAllum to do 33 further things if required? 34 A. I said to him - I said to Mat if he requires - if he's 35 chasing any contractors, get - give him their phone number, 36 their contact details. 37 38 Q. Was there any hint, according to you, in the meeting 39 between you and Mr Hanna that he was chasing other 40 contractors? 41 A. Not that I can recall. 42 43 Q. So why did you say it to Mr McAllum? 44 A. I don't know. I can't - I don't recall. All I know 45 is I - that's what I said to Mat. 46 47 Q. Why did you say it to Mat?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 582 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Well, he asked me to chase up a price for windows. 2 I guess I said it to him assuming if he wanted - I didn't 3 want to deal with it, I was too busy to deal with it. If 4 he - if he - in the future he needed a contact detail for 5 subbies that we used, to give him the contact details. 6 7 Q. So the effective head of the BLF in Queensland comes 8 to the effective head of construction of Mirvac in 9 Queensland and asks for a phone number and window prices? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. In person? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And that's all? 16 A. Yes. That's all. 17 18 Q. Did he say why he was having problems getting window 19 prices? 20 A. He said - he told me that there 21 was - I think - I don't think it was a problem with getting 22 a window price. I think it was more the problem of 23 delivery. 24 25 Q. Well, why do you think that? 26 A. Well, it must have been busy through that period of 27 time, so obviously - the lead times on window companies 28 change. Some can do windows in four weeks, some say 12 to 29 20 weeks. 30 31 Q. So what was he asking you? To chase up a price for 32 windows, as you said the first time -- 33 A. Correct. 34 35 Q. -- or, was it a problem getting delivery of windows? 36 A. No, he asked me to chase up a price for windows. 37 38 Q. So why do you say, "I think it was more the problem of 39 delivery"? 40 A. Well, because I don't know whether he'd chased up 41 prices for windows or not previously, but I'm assuming that 42 it was a problem for delivering. He told me he had 43 problems getting windows, could I chase a price up. That 44 was his language. 45 46 Q. And you say to the Commission, on oath, that that is 47 the entire content of that conversation?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 583 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 2 3 Q. But you went to Mr McAllum, you say, and you said 4 further things to Mr McAllum that you say were not even 5 discussed between you and Mr Hanna? 6 A. So I said to Mr McAllum, "Di Graham's details"; told 7 him to chase up prices for windows. I told him that if he 8 needed any contact details for contractors, give it to him, 9 and to look after him. 10 11 Q. Why did you tell Mr McAllum to look after Mr Hanna? 12 A. Well, because I say that in general conversation. 13 14 Q. It had nothing to do that he was the head of the BLF 15 in Queensland? 16 A. Yeah, probably, yeah, but I - but I've said that 17 to - yes, probably, yeah. 18 19 Q. And why did that have any impact on you saying to 20 Mr McAllum that he should look after Mr Hanna? 21 A. Why did it have - can you repeat that? 22 23 Q. Well, when I said that it had nothing to do with the 24 fact that he was the head of the BLF in Queensland, you 25 said, "Probably, yeah"? 26 A. So, yes, it would have - it would have - because he 27 was the head of the BLF in Queensland, or if he was the 28 head of any other company, I'd say "look after him". 29 30 Q. Why? 31 A. Because that's my nature. That's what I say to 32 people, "Look after him." 33 34 Q. Apart from that conversation that you said you had 35 with Mr Hanna, did you have any further conversation in 36 relation to the Cornubia house with either Mr Hanna or 37 anyone else on behalf of Mr Hanna? 38 A. Yes, I did. 39 40 Q. And who was that? 41 A. Jason Vieusseux. 42 43 Q. What was that? 44 A. I told him that we were getting Mr Hanna some prices 45 for windows, we were procuring prices for him for windows. 46 I told him that we were giving him contact details for an 47 interior designer.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 584 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Why did you tell Mr Vieusseux that? 3 A. Because I told Mr Vieusseux everything to do with 4 Unions, because it was required. So, any meetings with any 5 Unions on site, site would come back to me and say, "We had 6 a site visit", and we would relay everything back to 7 Mr Vieusseux. 8 9 Q. Where were you and where was Mr Vieusseux when you had 10 this conversation? 11 A. So, the conversation was around the 17th of - around 12 17 April, I think, or around that period of time. 13 14 Q. How have you come to that date? 15 A. Because I've been trying to - although I asked Mirvac 16 for my diary and my emails and they wouldn't give them to 17 me, I've been trying to recreate the times where I was 18 throughout that period of time through my flights and 19 accommodation. 20 21 Q. What day of the week do you say the 17th of April was 22 in 2013? You are going to a bundle of documents. What are 23 they? 24 A. Just my little calendar. I was in Perth. I was in 25 Perth. 26 27 Q. You were in Perth. That was what day? 28 A. A Wednesday. 29 30 Q. How have you come to the date then? You have gone to 31 your calendar? 32 A. No, I've got - so what I've done is I went through and 33 worked out where I was and what particular times where 34 I were throughout the States when I was travelling. 35 36 Q. Yes. 37 A. And then worked out when I would have spoken to him. 38 So it'd be roughly around the 17th. 39 40 Q. Well, how is it that you have come to be informed by 41 looking at your travel? Is it that you can recall speaking 42 to Mr Vieusseux when you were in Perth, or what is it? 43 A. Well, I can recall speaking to Mr Vieusseux when I was 44 in Perth. 45 46 Q. How often did you speak to Mr Vieusseux? 47 A. Nearly every day.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 585 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. So what is it about you being -- 3 A. Because there was a couple of - I remember - I recall 4 having a conversation with him when I was in Perth about 5 Dave Hanna's house. So that period, around the 17th, was 6 when I was in Perth. 7 8 Q. When did you first have the recollection that you'd 9 had a conversation with Mr Vieusseux when you were in Perth 10 about Mr Hanna's house? 11 A. When - sorry, repeat that? 12 13 Q. When did you first have this recollection? 14 A. When I went through and worked out my travel. I knew 15 I was in Perth when I spoke to him about - so I didn't know 16 whether it was - when I looked at my travel, I realised 17 that I was in Perth around the 17th. 18 19 Q. Right. 20 A. So I'm confident that it was the 17th that I had that 21 conversation. 22 23 Q. Is that a telephone conversation? 24 A. Telephone conversation, yes. 25 26 Q. What time of the day was it in Perth? 27 A. I'm - I don't know whether it was morning or 28 afternoon. 29 30 Q. Can you recall where you were? 31 A. Yes. Out the front of ACB. Out the front of our site 32 office. 33 34 Q. Were you talking to Mr Vieusseux on that occasion 35 about anything else other than Mr Hanna's house? 36 A. About the progress of the - of our project in Perth. 37 38 Q. Did you follow up that conversation with any written 39 record of it? 40 A. No. 41 42 Q. Why not? 43 A. Because I didn't. Because it wasn't - there was very, 44 very little communication that we'd sent through on any 45 industrial matters, very little. 46 47 Q. What does that mean?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 586 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Well, any - anything to do with Unions or Union 2 organisers, there was very few emails that we sent through. 3 4 Q. Well, why didn't you send an email confirming your 5 conversation in relation to -- 6 A. Because everyday - not everyday, very often I would 7 ring Jason and say to it him - so when I was in Perth, 8 nearly every time I was in Perth, we would have an 9 organiser come on to site and I would download to him 10 about, you know, "We had an organiser on site, they were 11 looking at this, they were concerned about this, this was 12 feedback I got from the guys on site", or I would be there 13 through that period of time. I never - we never sent - we 14 sent very few emails on actual site visits, or anything to 15 do with the Unions. So I would have just rung him and said 16 to him - I know that I rang him and said to him that 17 Dave Hanna's chasing some windows, a price for windows, and 18 he was chasing an interior designer, I couldn't give him 19 a Mirvac one, I gave him the details of Di. 20 21 Q. Did you say to him that you had a conversation with 22 Mr McAllum? Did you say to Mr Vieusseux that you'd had 23 a conversation with Mr McAllum? 24 A. I'm unsure of that. I can't - I can't recall that. 25 26 Q. Did you say to Mr Vieusseux that you had indicated to 27 someone junior to you that he was to help Mr Hanna in any 28 way? 29 A. So, I would have - I said to Vieusseux "We're chasing 30 up a price for him", but I don't know - I can't recall 31 whether I said, "Mat McAllum is chasing up a price for 32 him." 33 34 Q. Did you say to Mr Vieusseux that you had indicated to 35 someone junior to you that that person was to help Mr Hanna 36 in any way? 37 A. Yes, I would have. Yes. 38 39 Q. So you can recall saying that, can you? 40 A. I can recall saying that I'll get someone to chase up 41 a price for windows. 42 43 Q. That's not what I asked you, though. Did you tell 44 Mr Vieusseux that you had asked someone junior to you, 45 within Mirvac, to help Mr Hanna in any way in relation to 46 the house? 47 A. Not in those words, no.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 587 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Why not? 3 A. Because I - that - because I didn't use those words. 4 5 Q. Why? 6 A. Because I don't speak like that. So what I said to 7 Jason is that we've - I told him that Hanna came and seen 8 me. I told him that we had - he asked me to get a price 9 for windows. I told him that I got an interior designer, 10 and I told him that we were chasing up a price, so he would 11 assume - oh, that's what I told him. So that's how I talk. 12 I wouldn't say "I've got a junior chasing prices for him". 13 14 Q. Why did you choose Mr McAllum to assist Mr Hanna? 15 A. So, Mr McAllum had experience in residential, in small 16 houses- in houses. He was close to my desk and I know that 17 he would - like, he's ordered windows before, and he's very 18 good at that, so -- 19 20 Q. Mr McAllum is very good at ordering windows, is he? 21 A. Mr McAllum is very good at - yeah. You've got to know 22 how to order windows. 23 24 Q. How long had you known Mr McAllum as at this time, 25 in April 2013? 26 A. Oh, since he was a cadet. So, I can't - I don't 27 recall how many years, but for a long time. 28 29 Q. And as at April 2013, what was your relationship with 30 Mr McAllum? 31 A. I was his boss. 32 33 Q. Anything else? 34 A. I was a friend of Mr McAllum's. Well, I see him as 35 a friend, yeah, but I was his boss. 36 37 Q. Would you also regard yourself as his mentor as at 38 that time? 39 A. No, he - he - like, he was a 40 year-old bloke at that 40 stage and I don't regard myself as his mentor. When he was 41 young, I did, and then he left Mirvac for quite some time, 42 a long time, and then he came back. 43 44 Q. How did he come back? 45 A. We gave him a job. He asked me for a job. 46 47 Q. He got a job at Mirvac through you, did he?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 588 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. Well, actually, the first person that contacted 2 me to tell me that he was chasing - looking for work -- 3 4 Q. Sorry, can you continue. 5 A. The first person who contacted me to tell me that he 6 was looking for work was Nick Wickson, who is a site 7 manager for Mirvac, who was a friend of Mat's. 8 9 Q. When you heard that, what did you do? 10 A. I told him to give us a ring. 11 12 Q. And did he "give us a ring"? 13 A. Sorry, I told Nick Wickson to contact Mat, and for Mat 14 to ring me. 15 16 Q. Ring you? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Personally? 20 A. Yeah, well -- 21 22 Q. Did he do that? 23 A. He did. 24 25 Q. Did you assist him in getting a job with Mirvac by way 26 of contract? 27 A. Correct. 28 29 Q. Did you do that because you rated him poorly or rated 30 him highly, or something in between? 31 A. I rated him highly. 32 33 Q. You had respect for Mr McAllum at that time? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Had anything indicated to you that he was anything 37 other than a keen worker for Mirvac as at that time? 38 A. Sorry, prior to him starting or -- 39 40 Q. As at April 2013, when you were talking to him about 41 the Hanna house for the first time. 42 A. Yeah, he was a good Mirvac employee. 43 44 Q. When you spoke to Mr McAllum, what do you say that he 45 said to you? 46 A. Repeat that, please? 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 589 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. When you spoke to Mr McAllum about the Hanna house for 2 the first time, what do you say that he said to you? 3 A. He would have said to - he said to me, "Okay". That 4 was it. It was a very brief conversation, very brief. 5 6 Q. Did you have any further conversation with 7 Mr McAllum -- 8 A. None. Not that I recall, no. 9 10 Q. Well, how was he meant to help Mr Hanna then if all he 11 said was "Okay"? 12 A. I don't understand that. Can you repeat that? 13 14 Q. Right. So you said "Help him in any way", he said, 15 "Okay", and then what? 16 A. I didn't say, "Help him in any way", sorry. 17 18 Q. What did you say you said? 19 A. I said - so when I had the conversation with 20 Mat McAllum, I had the conversation, I said to him that 21 Dave Hanna's building a house; I would have at that period 22 of time given him the drawings of the house. 23 24 Q. In that first conversation? 25 A. Yes, in the first conversation that I had with him. I 26 would have given him the drawings for the house, or if I 27 didn't give him the drawings - I can't recall whether 28 I gave him the drawings for the house in that conversation, 29 but I do recall that - no, I would have given him the 30 drawings for the house in that conversation because I told 31 him that we needed to chase up a price for windows, and 32 I told him that I'd recommended Di Graham for interior 33 design and that I'd get her contact details. 34 35 Q. So how long after the conversation you had with 36 Mr Hanna did this first conversation with Mr McAllum occur? 37 A. I would say within a couple of days. A day or two, 38 I don't know. I'm not too sure. 39 40 Q. You had the conversation with Mr Hanna. 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Somehow got hold of the plans? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. You didn't mention the job with Mr McAllum until you 47 had the plans, is that what you say?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 590 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. That's correct, yes. That's what I've worked out. 2 3 Q. Did you provide anything else, other than the plans, 4 to Mr McAllum? 5 A. I forwarded an email to Mr McAllum with Di Graham's 6 details on it. 7 8 Q. Did you do that close to the time that you'd spoken to 9 Mr McAllum? 10 A. I think I did that after - after I'd had spoken to 11 Mr McAllum. 12 13 Q. Close to that time? 14 A. I'm not - I don't - it would have been within a week, 15 I think. 16 17 Q. Apart from that, did you have any further conversation 18 with Mr McAllum about the Hanna house? 19 A. No, not that I recall. No. 20 21 Q. You said, "No, not that I recall, no"? 22 A. No, I didn't. I don't think I did. 23 24 Q. So -- 25 A. The Hanna house to me was not - I was - I had too many 26 other things on to worry about that particular house. We 27 had - I told him to get the price for the windows. I would 28 have given him - I gave him the drawings, and that was it. 29 30 Q. Well, you also emailed Ms Graham's details? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. And that was it. Was there more? 34 A. No. 35 36 Q. Are you sure about that? 37 A. Yes, I'm - I'm - I'm fairly - yes, I'm sure. 38 39 Q. You were about to say "I'm fairly sure" and then you 40 changed that, is that right? 41 A. I'm sure of that. I only had one conversation with 42 him on it. 43 44 Q. Why did you start to say "I'm fairly sure"? 45 A. Well, I only had one conversation with him on it. 46 47 Q. Why did you say "I'm fairly sure"?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 591 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Because I'm trying to make sure that what I'm saying 2 is 100 per cent accurate. 3 4 Q. Have you ever met -- 5 A. I'm thinking about something that happened two and 6 a half years ago. 7 8 Q. Have you ever met Jenny Hanna? 9 A. Yes, twice, I've met Jenny Hanna. 10 11 Q. Where was that? 12 A. Socially I've seen her at a function. I think I saw 13 her at a race day. I saw her at a race day and I think 14 I met her - so I saw her at a race day and I saw Dave and 15 Jenny Hanna together at a shopping centre. 16 17 Q. Where was that? 18 A. The shopping centre? In Logan. 19 20 Q. Was that a chance meeting? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. How long did you speak to her for at that time? 24 A. I said hello. 25 26 Q. But you can remember meeting her? 27 A. Yeah. 28 29 Q. Did you see her at the shopping centre following the 30 race day meeting or before? 31 A. I can't recall the order of it. I can't recall the 32 order, but I've met her twice. 33 34 Q. Have you ever met her at the offices of Mirvac? 35 A. No. 36 37 Q. Are you sure about that? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. You would have heard Mr McAllum indicate -- 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. -- I had not finished my question. You would have 44 heard Mr McAllum indicate that he met Jenny Hanna and you, 45 together, at the offices of Mirvac. What do you say about 46 that? 47 A. I didn't meet - Mat might have met her at the office

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 592 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 but I didn't meet her at the office. 2 3 Q. Are you sure about that? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. It's not that it could have occurred and that you have 7 forgotten about it? 8 A. No, I didn't meet her at the office. 9 10 Q. So, are you saying that the sum total of your 11 involvement with the Hanna house was what you have already 12 told the Commission? 13 A. Correct. 14 15 Q. There was nothing else? 16 A. Nothing else. 17 18 Q. You are looking at me quite sternly at the moment. 19 A. Not sternly. 20 21 Q. So, there was nothing more to report to Mr Vieusseux? 22 A. Not - no, not on the Hanna house, no. 23 24 Q. You didn't need to follow up with Mr McAllum in order 25 that you could keep Mr Vieusseux informed? 26 A. It wasn't - we only had the one conversation on it. 27 28 Q. Well, did you feel there was a need, given it was 29 a high ranking member of a Union, that you should follow up 30 what was happening? 31 A. No, because - he asked for a price for windows and he 32 was talking - gave him the contact details to Di Graham, so 33 there was nothing else. I'm sure if there was anything 34 else, he would have contacted me or Mat would have told me, 35 so -- 36 37 Q. Well, Mr McAllum has indicated in his evidence that he 38 did have further discussions with you about the Hanna 39 house. Do you say that they didn't occur? 40 A. I say that they didn't occur. 41 42 Q. So you think it was an important enough matter to talk 43 to Mr Vieusseux about in the first place - yes? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Yet you didn't think it was important enough to follow 47 up?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 593 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. No. I - as I said before, if a Union organiser came 2 on-site, any site, even just for a visit, we 3 would - I would talk to Mr Vieusseux about it. So we would 4 say, "The Union's very active at the moment, they're going 5 through sites." Our site at site A, or B or C, not 6 effective. So we reported back, or I reported back every 7 time the Union visited the site, and our guys on site 8 reported to me every time a Union visited the site. 9 10 Q. But Mr Hanna wasn't visiting a site, he was asking you 11 for a favour? 12 A. Yes, but - and I told Vieusseux that. 13 14 Q. Did Mr Vieusseux ask for any updates? 15 A. No. 16 17 Q. Did you notice whether or not Mr McAllum was not in 18 the office on occasions? 19 A. No, because I wasn't in the office. I did a lot of 20 travel. 21 22 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to page 61 of volume 1 23 of Cornubia MFI. Do you see there a document, second half 24 of the page, from someone at Laing O'Rourke -- 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. -- to a whole lot of people listed there? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Do you see at the top of the page that you have 31 forwarded what it appears from at least the description of 32 the attachments, even though the description is slightly 33 different to the "Subject" description in the lower email, 34 that it appears to be that you have sent a copy of that 35 email from that Laing O'Rourke person to Mr Vieusseux? 36 A. Correct. 37 38 Q. Do you see that your name does not appear as one of 39 the recipients in the Laing O'Rourke communication? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. So, how is it that you are able to send this through 43 to Mr Vieusseux? 44 A. What do you mean? I don't understand the question. 45 46 Q. Well, you know that in documents there are email 47 trails?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 594 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. And you can normally see that X sent to Y, Y sent to 4 Z, Z sent to A. We have a missing link here, can you see 5 that? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Well, can you explain it? 9 A. So I would suggest that Dave Mapleton from 10 Fugen Bricklayers sent it to me. 11 12 Q. Did you take off that sending off this forwarding? 13 A. Yes, I would have, yes. 14 15 Q. Why did you do that? 16 A. I don't - I can't answer that. I would have just sent 17 it through to him. 18 19 Q. And why did you send it through to Mr Vieusseux? 20 A. Because it was showing that in the industry at that 21 particular time, there was a lot of activity from the Union 22 going on. 23 24 Q. And you thought that was important to share with your 25 boss? 26 A. As I said before, every time the Union came on to our 27 sites, I would ring him and we would give an update on what 28 was happening industrially, so that was very, very 29 important to us. 30 31 Q. So it was very, very important to you? 32 A. To us. To us. 33 34 Q. To Mirvac? 35 A. Correct. 36 37 Q. What in particular was very, very important to Mirvac? 38 A. We needed to know - we needed to ensure that - well, 39 not ensure. We needed to know what sort of - if there was 40 any action up and coming, industrial action coming on, what 41 their particular - so what the Union's particular focus was 42 in that month. So, typically any sort of industrial focus 43 for the coming months or weeks or days. 44 45 Q. The subject is: 46 47 DO NOT DISTRIBUTE

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 595 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Did you type that yourself? 3 A. I don't know. I can't - I can't say "Yes" or "No" on 4 that. 5 6 Q. Well, that subject is not in the original one that we 7 have before us. 8 A. Then I must have. I don't know. I can't say "Yes" or 9 "No". 10 11 Q. Right. Do you know why that subject was typed by 12 either you or someone else? 13 A. Because it was Laing O'Rourke documents. 14 15 Q. Who did you not want Mr Vieusseux to distribute it to? 16 A. I can't answer that. 17 18 Q. So -- 19 A. I just put "DO NOT DISTRIBUTE" because it was 20 a Laing O'Rourke document. 21 22 Q. The text of it says: 23 24 [laing] O'Rourke are at war with the 25 brothers, CFMEU are smashing all other 26 Projects other than Mac & Anne ... 27 28 That's the McLaughlin and Anne development - yes? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. And then it brackets it says: 32 33 ...(the disaster in Fortitude Valley 34 14 months). 35 36 They are are calling meetings on most 37 projects weekly. 38 39 Kawana is unaffected. 40 41 A. Yes. So through that period of time there was a lot 42 of industrial action in the city, obviously. 43 44 Q. I think you stopped mid-answer or did you finish your 45 answer? 46 A. No, I've finished my answer. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 596 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Were you concerned, that is Mirvac, was Mirvac 2 concerned that there could be industrial action of 3 a similar nature on Mirvac sites from the building Union? 4 A. So we were always - not so much concerned, but we were 5 always mindful of the fact, when there was a campaign going 6 on, that people - that we needed to be informed that there 7 was a campaign going on. So, if there were particular 8 issues that -- 9 10 Q. Yes, I'm listening. 11 A. So if there were particular issues that the Unions 12 were targeting, then we'd discuss those issues. If there 13 were particular - oh, particular contractors that Unions 14 may have been targeting, we'd discuss those. 15 16 Q. The presentation that was forwarded by you to 17 Mr Vieusseux appears behind that email, do you see that -- 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. -- between pages 62 and 82. 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. There's some sort of summary of what happened and the 24 judgment that has been made by a Judge -- 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. -- in relation to the action? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. In particular at page 74, do you see that? There is 31 a quote from Justice Collier's judgment in the Federal 32 Court. That has been highlighted, that bit that says: 33 34 "... suggest [an] agenda by the relevant 35 union officials other than a pure interest 36 in the workplace health and safety issues." 37 38 In the context of inspections by Union officials; do you 39 see that? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. Was that part of what you were communicating to 43 Mr Vieusseux? 44 A. It was, but it was - yes, that would be part of it. 45 The whole document was what I was communicating with 46 Mr Vieusseux. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 597 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. And the issues that were identified in that? 2 A. Correct. 3 4 Q. Did you talk to Mr Vieusseux about it? 5 A. We would have spoken about - yes, I did speak to him 6 about industrial issues and action in Brisbane. 7 8 Q. Do you see at page 64 that the injunction order as 9 summarised by this document: 10 11 - Made by the Federal Court and in place 12 since 15 February 2013 13 14 Covers, amongst other Unions, the BLF? 15 A. Yes. And the CFMEU. 16 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. So it covers the four unions that basically - most -- 19 20 Q. That's March 2013 that you are forwarding that to 21 Mr Vieusseux. 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. When do you say that you first bumped into Mr Hanna 25 where he said he wanted to see you and you ended up meeting 26 him in relation to the Hanna house? 27 A. Early April. 28 29 Q. So within weeks of this document? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. So this must have been at the forefront of your mind 33 when you met the most senior official of the BLF in the 34 street - yes? 35 A. No. Why would it be in the forefront of my mind? 36 It's another document that I've sent through, or a 37 discussion that I've had with the Unions. 38 39 Q. Is that your honest answer, is it? 40 A. Yes, it is. So I had - I had conversations about 41 Unions many times in a week so - many times. If we had 42 these conversations about Unions, it was constant 43 conversation. 44 45 Q. But you said earlier to my question that it was very, 46 very important? 47 A. It is very, very important.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 598 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. You said "That was very, very important to us." "We 3 would give an update on what was happening in the industry, 4 so that was very, very important to us". Do you now say it 5 was not at the forefront of your mind when you bumped into 6 the head of the BLF, and something? 7 A. This particular document wasn't. 8 9 Q. That issue was, though, was it not? 10 A. Not that issue. That particular document wasn't. So 11 the - when I bumped into - so we're talking about when 12 I bumped into the President of the BLF or when he came to 13 the office? 14 15 Q. The Secretary, or both. First, because it was 16 in April that you say that that happened? 17 A. So when - when I met with Hanna, that had 18 nothing - I don't see the relevance of this with Hanna. 19 20 Q. You don't see the relevance that there had been 21 problems involving Unions, including the BLF, only weeks 22 before in construction in Queensland? 23 A. But there were problems every week with construction 24 in Queensland. 25 26 Q. Do your understanding what was the problem at the 27 Mac & Anne site? 28 A. I think the issue at the Mac & Anne site was - I think 29 that they used a - there were safety issues on that site. 30 I know that there were safety issues on that particular 31 site, or it was alleged that there were safety issues on 32 that site, and I also think the other issue on that site 33 was the fact that there was a structure contractor that was 34 doing the core that was - that didn't have an EBA. That's 35 what I believe the issues were, but I could be totally 36 wrong on that, so -- 37 38 Q. Did you read the attachments to the email, or did you 39 become generally aware of the attachments to the email 40 before you -- 41 A. Two and a half years ago I would have, or whenever it 42 was. 43 44 Q. Before you forwarded it to Mr Vieusseux -- 45 A. Yeah, I would have read it, of course. 46 47 Q. Did you notice that there was an injunction that had

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 599 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 been successfully sought? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. And in relation to, as I understand it, in part, 5 visits by the Union that his Honour had found -- 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Her Honour. 8 9 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Sorry, her Honour had 10 found - I withdraw that. That suggest an agenda by the 11 relevant Union officials other than a pure interest in the 12 Workplace Health and Safety issues - yes? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Was there any issue about bans on night work with 16 Mac & Anne? 17 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that. 18 19 Q. Was there any sort of time constraints on that project 20 that were causing pressure? 21 A. On Mac & Anne? 22 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. That wasn't my project. 25 26 Q. So you don't know whether or not there were? 27 A. No. I don't know what the contract was on Mac & Anne. 28 29 Q. What you did know, though, is what you reflected in 30 your email at page 61 that they're "at war with the 31 brothers, [and the] CFMEU are smashing all projects other 32 than Mac & Anne" - yes? 33 A. Yes, because there was an injunction on it. 34 35 Q. Had you typed those words? 36 A. Yes, they're my words. 37 38 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to page 83. Do you see 39 there an email from Louise Gunston of Mirvac to you? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. 43 Hi Adam, 44 45 Which job would like to cover this cost? 46 47 It being a BLF Family Day Donation?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 600 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Why did she ask you that, do you believe? 4 A. Because she would want to know what project we're 5 going to charge that particular donation to. 6 7 Q. Is that pursuant to what you were indicating to the 8 Commission before -- 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. -- as to the arrangements in place at this time in 12 relation to Union donations? 13 A. Correct. 14 15 Q. Did you reply to her? 16 A. Yes, I would have. 17 18 Q. Did you indicate to her which job was to cover it? 19 A. Yes, I would have. 20 21 Q. Can I ask you to look at page 87. 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Do you see there an email from Mr Cunningham to you? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. About "Kawana - Flexi RDO"? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Do you see there it started at the bottom of that 31 page someone is emailing people at the Union, the CFMEU and 32 the BLF in relation to men being able to work flexi RDOs at 33 the Kawana Waters Shopping Centre? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. That was sent then up to someone at Mirvac, 37 Nick Wickson, whose name you have mentioned? 38 A. Yes. He was the site manager, yes. 39 40 Q. And then Nick Wickson has - it's not entirely clear 41 how that has come up to Mr Cunningham. 42 A. So it's gone from -- 43 44 Q. Yes, it is. It is copied into him, yes. 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Do you see the second from the top message is

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 601 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 a message from Mr Pearson of the BLF to Mr Wickson of 2 Mirvac copying in Mr Cunningham of Mirvac, Mr Hanna of the 3 BLF and Mr Bland of the BLF? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. And then he forwards it to you. Why were you 7 involved? 8 A. Because they would - so they've forwarded it to me to 9 ensure - for me to ring Pearson or Bland to talk to them 10 about, or to ensure that we could work on the RDO. 11 12 Q. And he wrote to you: 13 14 Pretty cooperative considering the March 15 from site tomorrow 16 17 What does that mean? 18 A. That's the day before, so I don't know what that is. 19 20 Q. If you go back, if you would be kind enough, to 21 page 67 -- 22 A. 67? 23 24 Q. Page 67, back to that part of the presentation, do you 25 see part of the issues involved in that dispute involved 26 working outside ordinary hours? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. It's apparent that Kawana was also in this territory 30 of wanting workers to work outside ordinary hours? 31 A. I think every project in Queensland was in that 32 territory. So, RDOs, for as long as - for at least the 33 last, minimum, 10 years, if you want to work an RDO, you 34 would request to work an RDO, the EBA says that. So that 35 territory has always been there. 36 37 Q. Then over at page 88, do you see that you have sent -- 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. -- an email to Mr Pearson: 41 42 Mate, give me a break, Gary Owen, 43 Kris Simcoe and Bob Carnegie, mate I'm 44 carrying them with no budget, all I ask is 45 to catchup with works that have been 46 affected by the rain 47 Please call me

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 602 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Because he had asked you, that is Mr Pearson, that he 3 needed a list of the blokes before, or he'd sent a message 4 to one of your colleagues that he needed a list of blokes 5 before he could make a decision? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. So you were getting a bit -- 9 A. Emotive there. 10 11 12 Q. -- concerned? 13 A. Yeah, I was - yeah. 14 15 Q. At page 90, you sent that through to - sorry, you 16 sent -- 17 A. Pearson then came back to me, yes. 18 19 Q. 20 Relax mate I still need everyone to provide 21 the same information, we are ok with you 22 working the rdo's 23 24 And you forwarded that to Mr Cunningham? 25 A. Correct. 26 27 Q. Then you essentially apologise to Mr Pearson at 28 page 92 saying you were a bit fragile that morning? 29 A. Yeah. Apparently, yes. 30 31 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to page 96. This is 32 less than a month later. You see there a message from 33 Mr Mullan -- 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. -- to you" 37 38 FW: details for Di 39 40 So, how is it that Mr Mullan is emailing you? What had 41 occurred prior to that email? 42 A. So, I've rung Mr Mullan's and said, "Can you send me 43 through Di's details". 44 45 Q. What else had you said to Mr Mullan? 46 A. That's it. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 603 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Is that the sum total of the conversation? 2 A. Sorry, okay. I rung Mr Mullan, asked him was Di still 3 doing interior design, is she still doing interior design. 4 I told him in that conversation that Dave Hanna was chasing 5 an interior designer, would Di be interested; if so, please 6 send me through Di's details. That was the conversation. 7 8 Q. And you had Mr Mullan's phone number? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Did that occur after you had met with Mr Hanna at the 12 office of Mirvac in Adelaide Street? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. How soon after? 16 A. I would say within a week. 17 18 Q. At page -- 19 A. Sorry, yes, within a week I'd say. 20 21 Q. Page 97, there's Ms Graham's details? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And then the same day, but later that night, you 25 forward those through to Mr McAllum? 26 A. Correct. 27 28 Q. Do you say before or after that, you gave Mr McAllum 29 plans? 30 A. I'd say before that I gave Mr McAllum the plans. 31 32 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to page 112. Do you 33 see there an email from a Mr Kneale to you, "Subject: 34 langs", and it seems to be a version or a copy of an 35 article, or some sort of email, or possibly a press 36 release, it's not entirely clear? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. That's in relation to the Federal Court of Australia 40 granting interlocutory orders for Australian Unions from 41 placing bans, limitations or restrictions on the 42 performance of work at a construction project: 43 44 ... and from taking any action to limit the 45 work of subcontractors on the project until 46 the proceedings have been finally 47 determined.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 604 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Then there is a link to the actual case by way of 5 hyperlink, and there's further details about the industrial 6 disruptions which had occurred on 19 November 2012 and 7 12 February 2013 relating mainly to undertaking night work, 8 work outside the core hours of 6.30am to 6.30pm and 9 scheduling of overtime without Union approval. Do you see 10 that? 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. Do you know why that was forwarded to you by 14 Mr Kneale? 15 A. He would have sent it to me because it was an industry 16 update, and we had a lot of industry updates that we used 17 to look at, so any - any industrial hype or action with the 18 Unions, we'd always keep our eye on. 19 20 Q. Can I just ask you to return to page 88. The people 21 that you mention in your email towards the top of the 22 page -- 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. -- do you know who Kris Simcoe and Bob Carnegie were? 26 A. Yes, so two BLF - Bob Carnegie was Traffic Control, so 27 was Kris Simcoe and Gary Owen was our - they were it. 28 29 Q. Did Mr Simcoe have any further connection with the BLF 30 to your knowledge? 31 A. In - I don't understand that question. 32 33 Q. Well, to your knowledge, did Mr Simcoe have any 34 further connection with the BLF? 35 A. So, he did have further connection with the BLF. 36 37 Q. What was that? 38 A. His father was a - used to be a Secretary for the BLF 39 so his - yes. 40 41 Q. When you said you were carrying those three men with 42 no budget, what did you mean? 43 A. It meant that when I wrote that email, I was angry 44 with - you know, I was emotive and I said I want to work 45 the RDO, I've got BLF labourers on the site, I've got 46 labourers on the site, and I want to work the RDO. So 47 I was just probably emotive kicking, saying, you know,

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 605 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 "I've got three blokes here." 2 3 Q. But what does the "no budget" mean? What does 4 "carrying them with no budget" mean? 5 A. It's just me having a go - a go back, I guess, saying 6 I need to work on the RDO. I'm losing time, I'm losing 7 money through that period, I need to catch up. 8 9 Q. What does "carrying them" mean? What does that mean? 10 A. It means I've got them on the books. 11 12 Q. But -- 13 A. And I'm losing time, so no budget - so what I'm saying 14 is basically the longer the project goes - the longer the 15 project goes for -- 16 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. -- I'm chewing up my budget, carrying them with no 19 budget. 20 21 Q. But does it mean that they're on the books but you had 22 no particular budget set aside for them? 23 A. No. It says - so what I'm - all I'm asking there is 24 to be able to work the RDO. I'm carrying blokes with no 25 budget, we're losing time. We've - we're - which means 26 that our project is running over. 27 28 Q. Well, did you only have three men working there? 29 A. I had three BLF labourers working there. 30 31 Q. So you only had three BLF labourers and other men who 32 were not BLF people? 33 A. No, no. These guys were directly employed as 34 labourers in traffic control for Mirvac - through for 35 Mirvac. So what I'm saying is I've got good representation 36 on site, I've got three blokes there working, the job's 37 blowing out over time, and I've got no budget left, I need 38 to catch up. 39 40 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to page 131. You have 41 said to the Commission - and I have asked you a number of 42 times - that you had no further dealings with the Cornubia 43 house. Do you see there you have been copied into an email 44 on 22 April? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. It is from Mr McAllum to Mr Hanna; copied to you.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 606 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes, I see that? 2 3 Q. "AMENDED ENGINEERING" - for the Cornubia property, you 4 would agree? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. So, you have been copied in -- 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. -- to some detail in relation to the Energy Efficiency 11 Report. Does that help your recollection as to whether or 12 not there were any further conversations between you and 13 Mr McAllum? 14 A. Well, obviously he's sent it to me, so I see that. 15 It's about the windows, so that's what it's about, and 16 I haven't paid any attention to it basically. 17 18 Q. Well, why do you understand that Mr McAllum copied you 19 in? 20 A. He's obviously sending me that to say that he's 21 chasing an Energy Efficiency Report from Dave Hanna. 22 23 Q. Why did he copy you in? 24 A. I don't know. 25 26 Q. So, this is an additional thing that has occurred that 27 is beyond your recollection when I asked you before; that's 28 right? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Is that all? 32 A. Well, it's about the windows, so it's still - it's 33 about the windows. 34 35 Q. Right. So, are you saying that there's nothing 36 further? 37 A. Nothing that I can recall. So, that's about the 38 windows, so, yep, I understand that. 39 40 Q. Can I ask you to turn to page 146. 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. You are copied into another email in relation to 44 Cornubia. Is this about windows? 45 A. Oh - no, I don't know about that email. I don't 46 remember that email. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 607 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Do you know who Glen Wadsworth is? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. Is he a windows man? 5 A. No. He's a plasterer. 6 7 Q. So, you are being copied in in relation to this issue? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Do you know why you were copied in in relation to 11 something involving a plasterer? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 14 Q. Is that your honest answer to the Commission? 15 A. Yes. No, I don't. 16 17 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time, Commissioner? 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: 2 o'clock? 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: It is a matter for -- 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you think we are going to finish? 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: I should hope so. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: I should just say this. The hearing 28 will have to finish at 4pm sharp this afternoon. If anyone 29 has any housekeeping problems, complaints, difficulties, it 30 might be a good idea to raise them at 2pm because then they 31 can be dealt with and there will not be any unnecessary 32 cutting short of the treatment of those issues if they 33 arise around 4pm. We will resume at 2pm. 34 35 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 608 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Does anyone have any applications? 2 Very well. Ms McNaughton? 3 4 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 5 6 Q. Mr Moore, I was asking you about page 146. 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. How did you know Mr Wadsworth? 10 A. He's a plasterer. 11 12 Q. How did you know him? 13 A. He does work on Mirvac projects. He has a large 14 plastering company. 15 16 Q. How long had you known him? 17 A. Approximately, I think 12 years. 18 19 Q. Did you have a discussion with Mr Wadsworth about the 20 Cornubia house? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. Do you know why Mr McAllum was copying you in to an 24 email involving Mr Wadsworth? 25 A. No, I don't. 26 27 Q. Could I ask you please to turn to page 148. 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. Do you see there in the second part of that email 31 there is someone, Eliza Davis, who is sending an email 32 apparently on your behalf - do you see that? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. Do you recall whether or not you had a conversation 36 with Ms Davis about a meeting in relation to Cornubia? 37 A. I didn't have a conversation with Ms Davis. 38 39 Q. Do you see that it looks like it has been an 40 invitation to a meeting sent by way of Outlook or something 41 similar? 42 A. Correct. 43 44 Q. Did you used to get such meeting invitations? 45 A. Yes, but so did Eliza. 46 47 Q. Did you get them yourself, as well as Ms Davis, or how

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 609 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 was it done? 2 A. Yes. So she - it was a calendar. She had my 3 calendar, basically, but I could see my calendar too. 4 5 Q. So you recall positively that you didn't have a 6 conversation with Ms Davis about Cornubia? 7 A. Correct. Yes, I didn't. 8 9 Q. How is it you're able to recall that so positively? 10 A. Because Wadsworth and Cornubia, I don't - I would have 11 remembered that. 12 13 Q. Why? 14 A. Well, 'cause it's Wadsworth. What's Wadsworth doing 15 at Cornubia? 16 17 Q. Would that have been strange to you, is that what 18 you're saying? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Why? 22 A. Because we don't have a project at Cornubia. 23 24 Q. Did you know Mr Hanna's house was at Cornubia? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Did you recall that you'd asked Mr McAllum to assist 28 Mr Hanna with anything he required? 29 A. I - no. I didn't say with anything required. I said, 30 "If he needs names of trades" and "Give him the contact 31 details of trades", but if I saw Wadsworth and Cornubia 32 together, I would have - I would have remembered that, and 33 I didn't see it. 34 35 Q. You told Mr McAllum though, according to you earlier 36 today, to look after Mr Hanna? 37 A. Correct. 38 39 Q. Would looking after Mr Hanna include, in your 40 understanding, that he could put Mr Hanna in touch with 41 people such as Mr Wadsworth? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. So that wouldn't be so strange, would it, if you had 45 an invitation in relation to that topic? 46 A. If I saw Wadsworth and Cornubia together, I would have 47 known. I would have remembered it.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 610 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Why would you have remembered it? 3 A. Because I didn't see any - the only other trade I did 4 see was the window guy at the window - where they got the 5 price for the window and Di Graham. If I knew Wadsworth 6 and Cornubia, I would have remembered it. 7 8 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to page 149. Do you 9 see that that looks to be - I am not suggesting you are a 10 party to that email or meeting arrangement - some sort of 11 arrangement to discuss Cornubia at the Mirvac office? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Do you recall now, looking at that, whether or not you 15 were told anything about that? 16 A. No, I wasn't. I wasn't involved in that meeting. 17 I don't remember that meeting and I don't remember seeing 18 Wadsworth/Cornubia meeting. 19 20 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr McAllum had known 21 Mr Wadsworth prior to April 2013? 22 A. Yes, he would have known Glen. 23 24 Q. Why do you say that? 25 A. Because Glen works on our sites and he would have put 26 in a price. 27 28 Q. Do you know that for a fact or you're just assuming 29 that? 30 A. I'm just assuming that. 31 32 Q. Could I ask you, please, to go to page 190. 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. Do you see there an email from Kevin Chen of Mirvac to 36 yourself? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Mr Chen is asking something about an invoice received 40 in his Basware? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. It says that it is authorised by Adam Moore, over the 44 page at page 191. Do you see that? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Is that pursuant to the arrangement you told us about

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 611 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 this morning? 2 A. Correct. 3 4 Q. Do you recall authorising the BLF Family Day Donation 5 for Trident Construction Resources Pty Ltd? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 8 Q. What do you recall about that? 9 A. I recall speaking to Kevin and saying, "Yes, it will 10 be paid by us." 11 12 Q. Did you talk to Trident about that? 13 A. I don't recall if I spoke to Trident about that. 14 15 Q. How can you account for the fact that on this document 16 it says "Authorised by Adam Moore" on Trident letterhead if 17 you hadn't talked to them? 18 A. I don't recall, but I know that we made a donation 19 through Trident to the family day. I don't know whether 20 I spoke to Trident directly, or the site manager on that 21 particular job. 22 23 Q. How many times do you recall speaking to Mr Hanna by 24 telephone in April 2013? 25 A. Oh, probably - I don't know exactly, but I'd suggest 26 maybe three or four times. 27 28 Q. Why would you have been talking to Mr Hanna three or 29 four times in April 2013? 30 A. I would have spoken to him - I would have given him 31 Di's contact details. 32 33 Q. Yes. 34 A. I would have spoken to him about Mat was his - going 35 to be the person that he spoke to. 36 37 Q. Was that a separate call, was it? 38 A. Yes, it would have been probably a separate call. 39 40 Q. Why separate? 41 A. Because I would have spoke to him first, I think, 42 about Mat and then, secondly, about Di's contact. 43 44 Q. That's two calls? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. Anything else you can think about?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 612 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. No, that's all I think I can recall. 2 3 Q. Do you recall leaving messages for him? 4 A. Yes, I might have left a message for him if he didn't 5 answer. 6 7 Q. Can I ask you please to go to page 218. 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Do you see that there's some sort of annexure to that 11 email? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Annexing your phone usage for Mirvac -- 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. -- for a period of time, April 2013? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Without reading out any of the numbers, do you see 21 your number is recorded as the one in the second column on 22 all the pages that follow from page 219 through to 240? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Where had you stored, if you had, Mr Hanna's phone 26 number? 27 A. It's - if it's on my phone. 28 29 Q. Is it still on your phone? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Can you accept from me that Mr Hanna's mobile phone 33 number - actually, I might write it out for you. Can 34 I show you this document. I've shown you there a mobile 35 phone number. Can you accept from me that that was 36 Mr Hanna's mobile phone number at the time? 37 A. Yes, I accept that. 38 39 Q. Does that accord with your recollection? 40 A. Without looking at my phone, then I accept that. 41 42 Q. Do you have your phone there? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Can you look at it. While you do that, can you 46 indicate why you still have Mr Hanna's mobile phone number 47 in your phone?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 613 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Because it's on my Contacts. 2 3 Q. Is that still relevant to your current work? 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: I think -- 6 7 A. No, but there's a lot of phone numbers on my -- 8 9 MS McNAUGHTON: Sorry, sir? 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: It is difficult for a witness to do two 12 things at once. 13 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I accept that's his phone number. 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. You still have that phone number 17 recorded in your phone now? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. When did you first start recording Mr Hanna's phone 21 number in your phone? 22 A. Oh, I'd suggest it has been there for many years. 23 24 Q. And you haven't thought to delete it? 25 A. No, I don't delete any numbers. 26 27 Q. Have you been in contact with Mr Hanna in the last 28 year or so? 29 A. Yes, I have, yes. 30 31 Q. Have you discussed the Royal Commission with Mr Hanna? 32 A. Maybe, yes, about - yes, I have. 33 34 Q. Have you discussed the house that he'd come to talk to 35 you about in 2013, with him? 36 A. Can you say that again, please? 37 38 Q. Did you discuss his house with him? 39 A. Yes, I think I did. Yes, I did. 40 41 Q. What did you discuss? 42 A. Mr Hanna - the discussion that we had was a - we spoke 43 about the Royal Commission and we spoke that he believed 44 his house was under investigation. 45 46 Q. When was that conversation? 47 A. I don't recall the exact period of time for that

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 614 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 conversation. 2 3 Q. Was it this year? 4 A. Yes, it would have been, yes. 5 6 Q. Did you say anything to him about it? 7 A. In respect to - I don't understand that question. 8 9 Q. Well, when he said, "I think my house might be under 10 investigation by the Royal Commission", or words to that 11 effect, did you say anything back to him? 12 A. I can't recall saying anything back. I can't recall 13 the conversation. I know that we spoke about the 14 Royal Commission. 15 16 Q. You can't recall whether you said anything back? 17 A. No. No, I don't. 18 19 Q. So you didn't say, "Well, why on earth would it be 20 under investigation by the Royal Commission?"? 21 A. No, I didn't. 22 23 Q. According to you, sir, you had a very limited 24 involvement and you had reported that to Mr Vieusseux. So, 25 did it strike you as odd that it might be under 26 investigation by the Royal Commission? 27 A. Not necessarily because, obviously, as you've stated 28 previously, he is a Union official who just built a new 29 house. 30 31 Q. And it didn't strike you as something that you wanted 32 to ask anything further about? 33 A. No, because the - I - we - I had, or as far as I was 34 concerned, we had limited involvement as in we gave him an 35 interior designer and we priced some windows for him. 36 37 Q. Can I ask you to turn to page 226. 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Just before we do that, that piece of 40 paper that you wrote on, do you want that to be exhibited 41 as a confidential exhibit? 42 43 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, Commissioner. 44 45 THE COMMISSIONER: That will be Cornubia Case Study MFI-5, 46 Confidential. I direct that the exhibit not be published. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 615 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 CONFIDENTIAL CORNUBIA CASE STUDY MFI-5 - HANDWRITTEN MOBILE 2 NUMBER 3 4 THE WITNESS: Sorry, 226? 5 6 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Yes, please, 226. Do you see the 7 fifth column along has times in it, it would appear - do 8 you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. And the far left column has dates? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Can you go down please to where it says "10 April 15 2013" and then find 7.53 in the morning? 16 A. 10 April? 17 18 Q. Yes, 10/04/2013, and go to 7.53. Do you see that? 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: I think it might not be a bad idea to 21 approach if you want to. 22 23 THE WITNESS: I can't see the time. Where's the time? 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. It's the fifth column along. It is 26 just under halfway down the page. 27 A. Yes, I see it. 28 29 Q. Do you see there at 7.53 that your mobile phone number 30 has called Mr Hanna's phone number for 39 seconds? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. And it's recorded as a voice call? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Do you see further down the page, at 13:34, so go down 37 about 12 or so entries, do you see that 13:34 time? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Do you see that you have called Mr Hanna's phone for 41 two minutes and 19 seconds? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Do you see that from the location, in the third of 45 those columns, it would appear that you're ringing from 46 Sydney? 47 A. Yes.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 616 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Do you know why you were ringing Mr Hanna twice on 3 10 April from Sydney? 4 A. So obviously the first time I didn't get him and the 5 second time I rang, I must have got on to him. 6 7 Q. Why were you ringing him? 8 A. I'm not sure. I can't recall that. 9 10 Q. You can't recall it, or why you were ringing Mr Hanna 11 from Sydney? 12 A. I don't know. On 10 April 2013, that might have 13 been - no, I'm only speculating. I don't know. It could 14 have been that I was arranging a meeting to see him, 15 I don't know. 16 17 Q. Doesn't he want to see you? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Wouldn't he be ringing you? 21 A. Well, maybe he did ring me and maybe I'm returning his 22 call. 23 24 Q. Could you please go over to page 230. 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. Can you please go to about 12 or so entries from the 28 foot of that page, it's 15 April, and it's at 17:11, or 11 29 minutes past 5pm, do you see that? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. There is recorded a mobile voice call from your phone 33 to Mr Hanna's phone at that time for 13 seconds? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. And then there's a further one for six seconds, that's 37 the next call, at 12 minutes past 5? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. And then at 21 minutes past 5, four seconds, and then 41 22 minutes past 5, four seconds? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Do you recall anything about those contacts? 45 A. Well, obviously, I was trying to ring him. 46 47 Q. You were trying quite hard, weren't you?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 617 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Sorry? 2 3 Q. You were trying quite hard to get on to him? 4 A. Yes, but that's nothing unusual for me. 5 6 Q. So you've rung him on the 10th and it would appear you 7 have had a conversation of over two minutes on that day and 8 then you're trying to get him again on the 15th? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Do you know why? 12 A. No, I don't. I don't know why. I can't recall. 13 14 Q. Could I ask you to go over to page 234. 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. About 10 or so entries from the bottom, this is 18 19 April at 7.59am. Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. There's a recorded voice call of 16 seconds from your 22 phone to his phone? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Do you know what that was about? 26 A. So that date there is on the 19th of April. That 27 could be the phone call that I gave him Di Mullan's contact 28 details. 29 30 Q. Then there's a further call over the page, page 235, 31 it's about eight entries from the top of the page, at 32 10.26, still on the 19th, 10.26am, a further call of 33 13 seconds? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. About six or so entries after that, at 11.36am, still 37 on the 19th, there is a call from your phone to his phone 38 of three minutes and 19 seconds? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Do you know what all those were about? 42 A. No, I don't. I can't recall. 43 44 Q. Did you have more than two calls with him, do you 45 think, looking at those, or not? 46 A. Well, it looks like that way, so - but I note that 47 quite a few of them are - they look like that I never got

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 618 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 him and they went straight to MessageBank, so I've been - 2 I've kept trying to ring him. 3 4 Q. Why do you say they went through to MessageBank? 5 A. Well, because it's got "deposit". 6 7 Q. Is that how you read that, is it? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Can I ask you now please to go to page 308 in that 11 same volume. Do you see there an email to you and some 12 other people from Mates in Construction? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. About a charity lunch? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Did you have a particular role in that organisation? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. What was that? 22 A. I was on the Board for Mates in Construction. I am on 23 the Board for Mates in Construction. 24 25 Q. The other people in the "To" part of the email, so the 26 recipients, are they the other people? 27 A. They were all on the Board. 28 29 Q. Can you see over at page 310 that there's a list of 30 people, including the Board? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. And that includes you and Mr Ravbar? 34 A. Correct. 35 36 Q. Did you meet as a Board very often? 37 A. Meet every six weeks, but not all of us attend all the 38 time. 39 40 Q. Of course, there are other people there listed. Apart 41 from Mr Ravbar of the CFMEU, do you know where those other 42 people, what organisations those other people on the Board 43 are associated with? 44 A. So Graham Martin is a professor or a doctor. 45 Bill Wallace is from CERT, I think, or B.E.R.T - CERT. 46 Brad O'Carroll is a Plumbing Union Secretary. Ravbar is 47 obviously the Secretary of the CFMEU.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 619 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. So they weren't there every meeting? 3 A. I mean, not everyone was there every meeting. 4 5 Q. Can I ask you please to turn to page 316. Do you see 6 there a message from Mr Bedano to Mr McAllum, copying you 7 in, about a BLF site visit? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Is this part of the issue you were explaining before 11 about the BLF EBA and the lack of it? 12 A. Yes, correct. 13 14 Q. That was still an issue as at 4 June 2013? 15 A. It would be an issue today still. It's always an 16 issue. 17 18 Q. Did you know Tony Stott? 19 A. No, not - I think I've met him once. I've met him 20 once, but that's about it. 21 22 Q. Can I ask you please to turn to page 322. 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. Do you see there Mr McAllum copying you in in relation 26 to his contact with Mr Stott? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. Do you recall that being discussed with Mr McAllum? 30 A. No, I think Mat must have - no, I don't recall that 31 being discussed with Mr McAllum. I do remember - 32 I remember - I recall that I spoke to Pearson about those 33 two guys. You see, the problematic ones - it wasn't 34 problematic - was Jarc and Craigs Engineering, and that's 35 what I spoke about before when I said for a smaller job, 36 it's very hard to get bigger contractors to price them. 37 38 Q. Can I ask you please to turn to page 324. Do you see 39 there Ms Kanofski of the BLF has emailed you, and no-one 40 else, in relation to the attached invitation/invoice for 41 the upcoming annual BLF Fight Night? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. What position did you understand she had at the BLF, 45 at June 2013? 46 A. I didn't really know her that well, so I don't know - 47 I can tell by this that she's the communication officer.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 620 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Do you know why she was emailing you, a very senior 3 person within Mirvac, with this invoice? 4 A. Well, probably one of the organisers - well, I'm 5 assuming that one of the organisers would have rung me and 6 said, "We've got a Fight Night on", and he would have got 7 her to email me. 8 9 Q. Why would you have been bothered with such a 10 comparatively trivial invoice? 11 A. Well, because the organiser would ring me and ask me 12 whether we would attend that particular event or function. 13 14 Q. Was it up to you to decide that? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Was it up to you to decide matters including that if 18 you attended, you would decide to pass the cost on to 19 someone else? 20 A. So - no. So, it was previously explained to me that 21 when we go to make donations to any Union organisation, as 22 far as buying tables, or going to any Fight Nights, or any 23 of that sort of entertainment, even going to the - like, 24 the Asbestos Foundation or horse racing day, they used to 25 have a horse racing day, that we would put it - send it to 26 a - try to get it paid for by a subcontractor, in the first 27 instance; if that couldn't happen, put it through as a 28 variation. 29 30 Q. Was that your decision to accept or otherwise? 31 A. But I spoke to Jason on all those - on any functions 32 that we went to. 33 34 Q. Once you got that email, are you saying that you spoke 35 to Mr Vieusseux? 36 A. Yes, for sure. 37 38 Q. Did you keep any record of a conversation to that 39 effect? 40 A. No, I didn't need to. 41 42 Q. Did you go to the Fight Night in question in 2013? 43 A. I'm not sure if I went to that one, but a lot of them 44 I went to and I missed a lot of them too, so -- 45 46 Q. Could I ask you please to go to 347. 47 A. Yes.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 621 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Do you see there that that email we saw earlier has 3 been forwarded from you to Mr McAllum? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Why was he involved? 7 A. Because I wanted him to pay for it on his - on that 8 particular project. 9 10 Q. You didn't say that, though, on your email? 11 A. No, I didn't need to. I sent it to him to pay for it 12 on that particular project. 13 14 Q. How was he to know that? 15 A. Well, I probably had a - I'm assuming I had a 16 conversation with him on it. 17 18 Q. Did you direct him to do that in that conversation? 19 A. Yes, I would have. 20 21 Q. But you can't remember that conversation now? 22 A. No, I don't, but it would have happened. 23 24 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn to another volume now, 25 volume 2, and go please to page 401. 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Do you see further emails following your forwarding it 29 to Mr McAllum? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Were you aware of any of those? 33 A. I didn't know Nicoll paid for it, by the looks of it. 34 35 Q. Did you know Lucas Nicoll? 36 A. I did. 37 38 Q. How did you know him? 39 A. He worked on a project, oh, 12 - in about 2000, and he 40 was a plumber that worked for a plumbing company on our 41 site. 42 43 Q. You knew him to be associated with the Orion Pad site, 44 did you? 45 A. Yes, I did. 46 47 Q. Do you know whether or not he did work at the Hanna

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 622 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 house? 2 A. I do now. 3 4 Q. Did you know at the time? 5 A. No. 6 7 Q. Can I ask you to turn to page 551. Do you see there 8 that you're one of the recipients of an email from 9 Ms Kanofski in relation to the Fight Night? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. And it goes over a few pages? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. Could I ask you to turn to page 555. You forwarded, 16 it would appear, that email to both Natalie Croghan and 17 Mat McAllum; why did you do that? 18 A. To pay for it on their project. 19 20 Q. Had it been paid for already, or don't you know? 21 A. I don't know. 22 23 Q. Can I ask you, please, now to go to a further volume, 24 volume 3, and if you could please turn to 824. Do you see 25 there an email from Mr Cunningham to you in relation to 26 Kawana Concrete Place? 27 A. 824? 28 29 Q. Yes, 824. There's also documents with 824-1 and 30 824-2, but I'm asking you to look at 824. 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Do you recall this issue being raised in this email? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Do you see that Mr Cunningham is saying: 37 38 If you have a chance to call Hanna, that 39 would work well ... 40 41 Do you know why he would have been saying that? 42 A. So he would have - yes, he would be asking me to speak 43 to Hanna or Pearson and say that we have an issue with - to 44 have a chat to them about it. 45 46 Q. Did Mr Cunningham know whether or not you knew 47 Mr Hanna?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 623 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. He would have known I knew Mr Hanna. 2 3 Q. How is that? 4 A. Because Mr Cunningham is a Project Manager on a site 5 and knew that Dave Hanna was the Secretary of the BLF, so 6 he'd assume that - of course he'd know that I knew him, but 7 I don't know whether I spoke to Hanna on this or I spoke to 8 Pearson, because a lot of this sort of stuff I'd go to 9 Kane Pearson, so I'm unsure of that. 10 11 Q. Can I ask you about the circumstances of your 12 resignation from Mirvac? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. When did you decide to resign from Mirvac? 16 A. So on the - in April, so prior - sorry, I'll start 17 from the beginning. In December/January, I was talking to 18 Lend Lease, this is, say, December 2012, January 2013, I 19 was speaking to Lend Lease about - they were creating a new 20 position to deliver apartments within Lend Lease Building. 21 In April, I was - in early April I got a phone call the 22 Executive General Manager of delivery who -- 23 24 Q. In Lend Lease? 25 A. Correct, and he organised a meeting to see me. I saw 26 him in late April, then I had a few more meetings with 27 different people in Lend Lease, in April and May. By the 28 end of May I probably not - probably the last week or the 29 third week in May, I knew that I had the position. I then 30 - from there, I'd - there was back and forth about the 31 remuneration package. I spoke to Jason probably at the 32 last week in May, the first week in June, telling him that 33 I was going to leave. He didn't want me to leave because 34 at that stage then our projects were going well and also, 35 too, we were trying to phase out and negotiate a project 36 that we had been working very hard on. I ended up saying 37 that I would stay on until - I said I'd stay on until the 38 end of July and that's basically what I did. 39 40 Q. You ended up resigning, I think, in August? 41 A. Yes. I - I ended up resigning on 6 August, I think. 42 43 Q. Could I ask you to turn to pages 914 and 915. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Do you see there a series of emails and, indeed, your 47 letter of resignation on page 915?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 624 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Is that all the written documentation in relation to 4 your resignation that you're aware of? 5 A. I gave him in the first - it was the first or second 6 week in June a written resignation letter then. So 7 I handed it to him, it wasn't an email, I handed it to him, 8 and then I stayed till the end, and why I - and then I sent 9 this so I could get paid when I left because he didn't have 10 the original. 11 12 Q. So is it that you sent the letter on 6 August? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. And the 9th was going to be your last day? 16 A. So that was a response from him saying - him sending 17 me an email saying "We need your letter. We get to get 18 another letter. Give me a letter of resignation." 19 I handed him the original. 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: It has been pointed out, of course, that 22 there is a private address on there and we would be 23 seeking, as is always the case, a non-publication order if 24 it hasn't already been made. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: I direct the residential address on 27 page 915 of volume 3 be kept confidential. 28 29 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. You handed him the original? 30 A. In the first week of - no, the second week of June 31 I handed him the original. 32 33 Q. The second week of June, then you emailed through this 34 one which appears to say: 35 36 Further to our discussion I hereby submit 37 my resignation as Construction Director, 38 Development Qld effective 5th August 2013 39 for your consideration. 40 41 A. Yes. There's another - there's an email prior to this 42 chasing up where - sent to my PA saying, "Oh, we need to 43 get Adam to send a resignation letter", and I think that 44 email was from Stuart Pearson. 45 46 Q. Were you in a position to hear the totality of the 47 evidence of Mr McAllum since Wednesday afternoon through

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 625 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 until this morning? 2 A. Not all of it, no. 3 4 Q. Some of it? Would you be aware that he gave an 5 account of a conversation with you in relation to the 6 Cornubia house where he indicated, in the course of that 7 conversation, that there was discussion between you and him 8 that trades on Orion would carry out the work on the Hanna 9 house? 10 A. Yes, I heard that. 11 12 Q. What do you say about that? 13 A. Incorrect. That's not a discussion we had. 14 15 Q. Do you have a clear recollection that that didn't 16 occur, do you? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Are you sure about that, are you? 20 A. Yes, I am. 21 22 Q. Was there anything said about words to the effect 23 about internal finishes being done on the Hanna house? 24 A. In respect - can you say that again, please? 25 26 Q. Was there anything in the course of that conversation 27 about internal finishes being done, or words to that 28 effect, being done on the house, was that discussed at all? 29 A. What conversation are you talking about? 30 31 Q. Well, was there more than one conversation? 32 A. No, you're saying there was a conversation. What 33 conversation? 34 35 Q. Between you and Mr McAllum in relation to the Hanna 36 house. 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. Do you say that there was never a discussion about 40 internal finishes or you can't recall? 41 A. I'm saying that there wasn't a discussion about 42 internal finishes. 43 44 Q. Do you recall Mr McAllum has given an account that 45 there was a discussion about how various works by various 46 trades would be paid on the Hanna house, do you recall, or 47 have you been told that he's given evidence to that effect?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 626 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Sorry, would you repeat that? 2 3 Q. Have you heard that Mr McAllum has given an account 4 that during the course of your conversation with him about 5 the Hanna house, there was a discussion about how various 6 works by various trades would be paid? 7 A. No, because there wasn't a conversation. 8 9 Q. Do you recall that Mr McAllum, or have you been 10 informed that Mr McAllum said that trades would do work on 11 the Hanna house and that they would either absorb the costs 12 or the costs could be passed over to Orion, or words to 13 that effect? 14 A. No, there was no conversation. 15 16 Q. Even though what Mr McAllum appears to have said is 17 the same method of payment that the Union charity funds had 18 agreed to have been paid at about the same time, you still 19 say that no discussion occurred to that effect? 20 A. No discussion occurred. 21 22 Q. Do you recall, or have you been told that Mr McAllum 23 has said that he had a number of discussions with you about 24 the progress of the Hanna house, or words to that effect, 25 what do you say about that? 26 A. Say - can you repeat that question? 27 28 Q. Do you recall, or have you been told, that Mr McAllum 29 has said that he had a number of discussions with you about 30 the progress of the Hanna house, or words to that effect? 31 A. So I heard him say that in - yes, I heard him say 32 that. 33 34 Q. What do you say about that? 35 A. What do I say about that? No conversation, no. 36 37 Q. Can I go back to the issue of the tiling and 38 Mr Mullan? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Did you have a discussion with Mr Mullan about 42 providing tiling for the Cornubia house for the Hannas? 43 A. No, I didn't. 44 45 Q. You're certain about that? 46 A. Yes, I'm certain about that. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 627 A J MOORE (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. It's not that it could have occurred and you've 2 forgotten? 3 A. No, I'm certain about that. I had a discussion with 4 Mr Mullan about getting Di. 5 6 Q. And that's all? 7 A. Correct. 8 9 Q. Even though you would be aware by now that Mr Mullan 10 did do tiling on the Hanna house? 11 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. 12 13 Q. And that you had spoken to Mr Mullan about Di Graham? 14 A. I spoke - yes, I did. Did I speak to Mr Mullan - I've 15 spoken to Mr Mullan on many occasions. 16 17 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. They're my questions, thank you. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Jones? 20 21 MR JONES: No, thank you, Mr Commissioner. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr McCarthy? 24 25 MR McCARTHY: Thank you, if I may, briefly. 26 27

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 628 A J MOORE (Mr McCarthy) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. You've had an opportunity to develop a good 2 understanding of how those sorts of interactions work? 3 A. Yes, I've got 34 years experience of it. 4 5 Q. My learned friend Ms McNaughton asked you some 6 questions about an email, page 324, of Ms Kanofski 7 concerning a BLF Fight Night? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. It's helpfully on the screen, and the attached 11 brochure. You also would recall some evidence you gave 12 concerning Mirvac's policy and how it evolved in relation 13 to the funding of these sorts of Union charity events, 14 I think you called them? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. You talked about how Mirvac's position moved from 18 initially being quite supportive and that people should go 19 and that Mirvac could fund them directly, to people could 20 still attend, but it went through a phase of being not 21 funded directly to effectively not funded at all by Mirvac. 22 The development of that policy you linked to a desire on 23 Mirvac's part to move to a non-EBA environment; is that 24 correct? 25 A. That's one part of it. That was - so that was a - 26 I think there were two parts to it. One, we became a 27 centralised national business, so that was one part of it, 28 and the second part of it was that we wanted to - we were 29 looking at setting up a non-EBA building company. 30 31 Q. You also mentioned, I think, in your evidence some 32 concern about how it would look, the appearance for the 33 general public? 34 A. Correct. 35 36 Q. Of being involved in funding attendances at these 37 sorts of events? 38 A. Correct. 39 40 Q. Can I suggest to you that the same sorts of concerns 41 would arise although on a much greater scale in relation to 42 the appearance of funding something of the kind that is 43 alleged by Mr McAllum's evidence, this funding through 44 Mirvac and through the use of contractors' arrangements and 45 variations, of the significant amount of works on a senior 46 Union official's house? 47 A. Yes, I agree.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 629 A J MOORE (Mr McCarthy) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Can I suggest to you this, that given your - I'll back 3 up one step. You had the same understanding in mid-2013, 4 in the time period we're talking about? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Can I suggest to you that the idea that somebody, a 8 senior Union official, or anybody else, can walk into your 9 office and suggest to you that you do what Mr McAllum's 10 allegations amount to, is, quite frankly, ridiculous? 11 A. Yes. Well, I don't know if it's ridiculous, but it 12 didn't - but it never happened. 13 14 Q. Well, if anyone had done that, you'd throw them out, 15 wouldn't you? 16 A. Yes, well, I wouldn't - yes. 17 18 Q. You would have -- 19 A. Your question was do I find - do I think it's 20 ridiculous. What my answer to that is: it never happened. 21 22 Q. I appreciate that, but speaking in the hypothetical 23 sense, if somebody had, there's no way you would have been 24 involved? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. You wouldn't have agreed? 28 A. No, definitely. 29 30 Q. I take it you -- 31 A. That's hypothetical. I'm telling you what happened 32 and Dave Hanna didn't lean on me to do - to build his 33 house, or do any work on his house. 34 35 Q. If anyone had come to you with a proposition that 36 included the ingredients that Mr McAllum has described 37 about funding construction of a senior Union official's 38 house through Mirvac's contractor arrangements, you would 39 have rejected that - yes? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. You would have I suspect reported that to senior Mirvac 43 officials, like -- 44 A. Yes, I reported all our Union day-to-day activities. 45 46 Q. And is it the case that quite likely Mirvac would have 47 then sought to take some action against whatever or

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 630 A J MOORE (Mr McCarthy) Transcript produced by DTI 1 whichever person was making that suggestion? 2 A. Yes, that's speculative. I don't know that, but 3 I definitely would have told my superiors. 4 5 MR McCARTHY: Thank you, Commissioner. 6 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr McCarthy. Mr Johnson? 8 9 MR JOHNSON: I have no questions, Commissioner. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Agius? 12 13 MR AGIUS: Very shortly. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 16 17

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 631 A J MOORE (Mr Agius) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 MR GLYNN: Commissioner, may I have 10 minutes, to just 3 try and sort a couple of things out before I cross-examine? 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, certainly. I will return in 6 10 minutes. 7 8 MR GLYNN: Thank you. 9 10 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 11 12 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Glynn? 13 14

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 632 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. So, you can't tell us whether it ever happened in 2 2012, you're saying? 3 A. No, I know it happened in 2012, but you're telling me 4 "early", so what was it? I don't know. 5 6 Q. Early March 2012. 7 A. It's possible, yes. 8 9 Q. Isn't it a fact that he was reimbursed via a variation 10 for retail hoarding? 11 A. I don't know. 12 13 Q. This morning you gave evidence about going to sporting 14 events and the payments for tickets; is that right? 15 A. Yes, correct. 16 17 Q. You said that prior to April 2012, tickets were paid 18 for by Mirvac or subcontractors and that the old CEO of 19 Mirvac Queensland had the view that if you wanted a table, 20 you just buy it. Is that what you said? 21 A. No, I didn't say that. 22 23 Q. What did you say? 24 A. So what I said - what I said was if we went to any 25 sporting events, or Union events, we would go to 26 subcontractors; if they would absorb it, they'd absorb it. 27 If they wouldn't absorb it, or we decided that Mirvac would 28 pay for it, then we'd take it to the CEO and get sign-off 29 from the CEO. 30 31 Q. Who do you mean by the CEO? 32 A. It would have been Matt Wallace or Chris Freeman back 33 then, depending when. 34 35 Q. Matt Wallace was a close friend of yours, wasn't he? 36 A. So - yes. He is a close friend of mine now. 37 Chris Freeman is a friend of mine. 38 39 Q. You said that after April 2012, the policy changed and 40 you were not allowed to buy tables at Union events? 41 A. Correct. No. No, no, I didn't say that. I said -- 42 43 Q. What did you say? 44 A. I said that Mirvac's account, ie, the Head Office 45 account, wouldn't - we wouldn't buy the tickets through 46 that account. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 633 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Through what? 2 A. Through the Business Unit account. 3 4 Q. You were told specifically that? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. Because that had been what had been happening in 8 Queensland? 9 A. That's because what had been happening probably 10 everywhere, I don't know. 11 12 Q. Can I suggest that all you can say is it happened in 13 Queensland? 14 A. Yes, okay. 15 16 Q. I suggest that you cannot say that it happened 17 anywhere else? 18 A. Yes, I can't say it happened anywhere else. 19 20 Q. And I suggest to you that it didn't happen anywhere 21 else? 22 A. Oh, that's - you can suggest that, yes. 23 24 Q. You then, however, decided to continue with the old 25 practice, didn't you? 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. And to get around the policy, you would either get a 29 subbie to pay; is that right? 30 A. We used to get subbies to pay previously as well. 31 32 Q. Or if you couldn't get them to pay, they would pay it 33 initially and be reimbursed by a false variation for a 34 project? 35 A. Say that question again? 36 37 Q. Yes. I said you then -- 38 A. No, no, start from the beginning and say the question 39 again. 40 41 Q. I'm phrasing it my way. All right? To get around the 42 policy that had been forced upon Queensland, you said that 43 either, one, you would either get a subcontractor to pay or 44 if they wouldn't pay, then you would get a subcontractor to 45 pay initially and they would then be reimbursed by a false 46 variation for a project? 47 A. No, incorrect.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 634 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Your new boss in the National structure from May 2012 3 was Jason Vieusseux; is that right? 4 A. Correct. 5 6 Q. You said that Jason Vieusseux told you to keep going 7 to the Union events, but to conceal the payments through 8 variations? 9 A. Correct. 10 11 Q. I suggest that's just a bald-faced lie? 12 A. Well, you're incorrect. You weren't there. 13 14 Q. All sponsorships had to be regularly reported 15 nationally? 16 A. Correct. 17 18 Q. You, for example, reported on, or you were asked to 19 report on sponsorships in June of 2012? 20 A. I don't recall that. 21 22 Q. Okay. In fact, you did. May I show this document to 23 the witness. It is apparently available on the screen. 24 I don't know whether it's got a number. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: You will have to identify it so that 27 the operator can display it. 28 29 (Document shown to operator) 30 31 MR GLYNN: Q. Do you see that document? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. The very last in that chain is an email from you 35 confirming that Queensland currently has no sponsorships in 36 place at this time? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. That was after a request to all of the States to 40 report on scholarships currently in place? 41 A. Right. 42 43 Q. It was just part of Mirvac's corporate social 44 responsibility policy; is that right? 45 A. I'm reading that now, yes. 46 47 Q. Sorry, you're reading the document?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 635 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. You are free to read the document. Have you read it? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. Do you want to add anything to your answer? 7 A. No. What relevance does that have? 8 9 Q. Just answer the questions. 10 11 MR GLYNN: May I tender that, Commissioner? I don't think 12 it is yet formally part of the record. 13 14 MS McNAUGHTON: I can tender that, Commissioner. 15 16 MR GLYNN: Thank you. 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. That will be Cornubia Case Study 19 MFI-6. 20 21 CORNUBIA CASE STUDY MFI-6 - DOCUMENT TITLED 22 "RE MIRVAC'S CORPORATE SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY (CSR) 23 INITIATIVES/SPONSORSHIPS" SENT 25/06/2012 24 25 MR GLYNN: Q. Your evidence, as I understand it, this 26 morning was that on directions from James MacKenzie, the 27 Mirvac Chairman, and Brett Draffen, the Financial Director, 28 there was to be no payment for Union funded events; is that 29 correct? 30 A. That's correct. 31 32 Q. You said that it was free for you to go as long as it 33 was concealed because the public could see it in the Mirvac 34 accounts? 35 A. Yes, that's correct. 36 37 Q. That's positively nonsense, that those items would 38 show in public accounts, isn't it? 39 A. I don't know. I'm not an accountant. But the 40 question I would ask is James MacKenzie made comment 41 and made - made comment that Queensland on account had paid 42 for a CFMEU donation, a Union donation. 43 44 Q. And he was concerned that that should stop? 45 A. Correct. 46 47 Q. The level of detail in the accounts of a top level

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 636 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 company like Mirvac does go down to the level of showing 2 those sorts of payments, didn't it? 3 A. Entertainment does, for sure. Entertainment shows on 4 a list. 5 6 Q. But not down to the variations, and the like, that you 7 engaged in? 8 A. No, no, no, you said - the question you asked - 9 rephrase your question, please. 10 11 Q. The level of detail in the accounts doesn't descend to 12 that level that would show the payments for a lunch or a 13 Fight Night? 14 A. So, if it was a Union Fight Night, or lunch, it would 15 show, most definitely. 16 17 Q. It wouldn't be shown in the public accounts of Mirvac, 18 would it? 19 A. If it was a donation to a trade Union, it would show. 20 21 Q. I suggest that that's incorrect? In fact, my 22 suggestion to you is that that level of detail wouldn't 23 even show at Head Office? 24 A. I don't agree with that. 25 26 Q. Your evidence was that Mirvac was fine for you to go 27 to the events, you just couldn't pay for them from company 28 funds; is that right? 29 A. Correct. 30 31 Q. I suggest that that's not correct; in fact, you were 32 prohibited from attending those functions? 33 A. That's incorrect. 34 35 Q. In fact, it was a breach of Mirvac's entertainment 36 policy to go to such events? 37 A. That's incorrect. You need to obtain approval to go 38 to those events. So if you read the policy, it said you 39 need to obtain approval. 40 41 Q. But it is otherwise barred, is it not? 42 A. If you didn't - depending on the value. So which 43 entertainment policy are we talking about? What year? 44 45 Q. Now you've got me, I can't answer that. 46 A. There was an entertainment policy that told you - gave 47 you a figure and a level of what functions you could

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 637 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 attend, and anything over that figure or level, you had to 2 get permission from your immediate boss. 3 4 Q. Was this whether you paid or not? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. I suggest that attendance at those events was simply a 8 breach of the entertainment policy certainly in 2013 - 2012 9 and 2013? 10 A. Unless - unless you got approval. I went to the 11 World Cup with Mirvac - the World Cup over in New Zealand 12 at the end of 2011 and I got approved for that, to go to 13 the World Cup. I went to - sorry? 14 15 Q. With Mirvac? 16 A. Correct. So, the entertainment policy said there's a 17 figure that you could go to, and then anything after that 18 you needed approval from your boss. 19 20 Q. Do you understand that I am putting to you that it was 21 contrary to the entertainment policy to go to Union 22 functions? 23 A. Unless you had approval from your boss. 24 25 Q. Isn't it the fact that Jason Vieusseux told you to 26 stop paying for Union events? 27 A. No, that's incorrect. 28 29 Q. He did not tell you, I suggest, that it was fine to go 30 but to conceal it? 31 A. That's incorrect. 32 33 Q. Let me ask you this: you were shown the invitation to 34 the 2013 Fight Night? 35 A. Correct. 36 37 Q. And, as I understood it, you said that you had 38 approval from Jason Vieusseux to attend and pay for it from 39 Mirvac funds; is that right? Did you say that? 40 A. No, I didn't say that. 41 42 Q. What did you say about Jason Vieusseux? 43 A. I said we had approval to attend those Fight Nights. 44 45 Q. To attend those Fight Nights? 46 A. To attend that Fight Night. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 638 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. From who? 2 A. From Vieusseux. 3 4 Q. Did that approval include approval to pay for it 5 through concealed variations, or variations which were 6 false? 7 A. Yes, it did. There was - yes. 8 9 Q. All right. When, in relation to that email, which was 10 dated 6 June, did you speak to Mr Vieusseux about this? 11 A. When was the function? What date was the function? 12 13 Q. All I can put to you is the date of the invitation. 14 A. Was date was the function? 15 16 Q. I'm putting to you the date of the invitation. 17 I don't know if I have the date of the function. 18 A. It will be on the flyer. Tell me what the date of the 19 function was. 20 21 Q. Perhaps I can ask my learned friend -- 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: 4 July. 24 25 MR GLYNN: 4 July. Thank you. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: This is the CFMEU fight. 28 29 THE WITNESS: That was when the function was. When was it 30 paid? 31 32 MR GLYNN: Q. When was it? 33 A. When was it paid? 34 35 Q. I'm saying it was raised with you as a function on 36 6 June. 37 A. So I don't know when I - I don't know the specific 38 date I asked him. 39 40 Q. You would ask him, would you not, when you were 41 invited; not when you went? 42 A. Yes, we'd ask him prior to it. 43 44 Q. Under what circumstances did you ask him? Did you 45 telephone him, or did you wait until he telephoned you? 46 A. No, I'd telephone him. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 639 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Where did you telephone him from? 2 A. I don't know on that particular one. I don't know the 3 date. 4 5 Q. So you can't give us any checkable detail as to your 6 contact with Jason Vieusseux about this? 7 A. Well, I requested from Mirvac six weeks ago my emails 8 and my calendar through my solicitors. Mirvac for two 9 weeks said that they would consider it, then they didn't 10 give me my - they wouldn't - they won't let me have access 11 to my emails. They noted that I got 21,000 emails from 12 April to end of July, and that was the reason they wouldn't 13 give them to us. We said, "No problem, I'll sort them, 14 I want to go through them", and they refused to give them 15 to me. 16 17 Q. Do you say the contact with Jason Vieusseux about this 18 was by telephone or by email? 19 A. I don't know on that particular one, but probably by 20 telephone. 21 22 Q. I'm not asking you when, I'm asking you how. 23 A. By telephone more than likely. I don't know. I need 24 to have a look at it to see. 25 26 Q. That assumes there's an email, does it? 27 A. No, I need to have a look at the string of the events, 28 how the email came, who the email came from, when would I - 29 where I was at that particular time. I might have spoken 30 to him if he was in Sydney at that time, I might have 31 spoken to him in Sydney, he might have been away on 32 holidays at that time, so it would have been after his 33 holiday, I don't know. 34 35 MR GLYNN: Commissioner, I didn't note the position of 36 that document. Perhaps my learned friend, Counsel 37 Assisting, may -- 38 39 THE COMMISSIONER: Page 325 of volume 1. Page 325 of 40 volume 1 is the invitation and 324 is the email. 41 42 MR GLYNN: Thank you, Commissioner. Page 324, I think, is 43 the one I want. 44 45 Q. The email apparently was sent to you at 2.24 on 46 6 June? 47 A. Yes.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 640 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Do you -- 3 A. I don't - I don't know when I would have contacted 4 him. He might have been on holidays in that period in 5 June, I might have contacted him after he came back from 6 holidays, or I might have actually contacted him prior 7 because Kane Pearson rang me and told me it was coming. 8 9 MS McNAUGHTON: Can I just indicate, it was also emailed, 10 page 324, on 6 June. 11 12 MR GLYNN: Could we see that too, please? 13 14 MS McNAUGHTON: I am sorry, I think there might be another 15 one. 16 17 MR GLYNN: That's the one that we want. 18 19 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I think there is another one. 20 21 MS McNAUGHTON: That might be the first relevant one. 22 23 MR GLYNN: That one is, is it? 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 26 27 MR GLYNN: Thank you. 28 29 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, I think that's right. 30 31 MR GLYNN: Q. Looking at that email - do you have 32 something there that will assist? Mr Moore, do you have 33 something there that will assist? 34 A. No. 35 36 Q. All right. You said, as I understand it, Mirvac had a 37 policy in 2012 that it was going to become a non-EBA 38 company? 39 A. No, I didn't say that. I said that we had a look - we 40 went over to Perth where Mirvac had used five builders to 41 price a job, over in Perth. The cheapest price in Perth 42 was a non-EBA builder by a substantial amount, so we were 43 looking at creating, in going forward, a non-EBA building 44 company. 45 46 Q. Can I suggest that Mirvac has, both during 2012 and 47 since then, continued to negotiate and sign EBA agreements

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 641 A J MOORE (Mr Glynn) Transcript produced by DTI 1 nationally? 2 A. Yes, you can suggest that. 3 4 Q. Do you agree with it? 5 A. I don't know, I don't work for them. 6 7 Q. Whilst you were there in 2012, do you agree that that 8 was in fact happening? 9 A. No, I disagree with that. I disagree with - the 10 question is, or my answer to that question is we were 11 investigating creating a building company without an EBA. 12 13 MR GLYNN: Thank you, Commissioner. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, Mr Glynn. Mr Stewart? 16 17 MR STEWART: Thank you, Mr Commissioner. 18 19

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 642 A J MOORE (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 individual. 2 3 Q. Did Mr Wadsworth's business do plastering for 4 individual homes? 5 A. No, I don't think so, but - I don't know his business 6 intimately, but I don't think so; he's a commercial 7 plasterer. 8 9 Q. What do Mates in Construction do? 10 A. Mates in Construction is a suicide awareness program 11 that - it's to bring awareness in suicide in the 12 construction industry. 13 14 Q. Is that a big problem in that industry? 15 A. Yes, it's massive. 16 17 Q. Did it fulfil that same purpose or pursue that same 18 goal in 2013? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 MR STEWART: Thank you. 22 23 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Stewart. Ms McNaughton? 24 25 MS McNAUGHTON: No, thank you, Commissioner. 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: There is no opposition, is there, to 28 Mr Moore being excused? 29 30 Q. Mr Moore, you're excused from further attendance on 31 the summons that you have responded to, so you can leave 32 the witness box now and leave the hearing room, if you 33 wish. 34 A. Thank you, Commissioner. 35 36

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 643 A J MOORE (Mr Stewart) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: There is an order that needs to be 3 made. 4 5 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, indeed. There is a non-publication 6 order that I'd ask you, Commissioner, to consider making. 7 8 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 9 10 Q. Mr Hanna, you have been sworn. Has your attention 11 between drawn to a non-publication direction? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Because of its importance, I will take the liberty of 15 reading it out: 16 17 The Commission DIRECTS that: 18 19 1. Pursuant to subsection 6D(3) of the 20 Royal Commissions Act 1902: 21 22 (a) the names of the (children) known as 23 the children of David Arthur Hanna and 24 Jennifer Clare Hanna; 25 26 (b) any image of one or more of the 27 Children; 28 29 (c) the names of the Children's schools; 30 31 (d) the bank account details of 32 David Arthur Hanna and Jennifer Clare 33 Hanna; 34 35 (e) bank statement entries recording the 36 name and bank account details of 37 third-parties not being contractors or 38 suppliers concerned with the construction 39 of the Cornubia house; 40 41 (f) bank statement entries recording 42 payments to the Children's schools; 43 44 (g) the residential address of 45 David Arthur Hanna and Jennifer Clare Hanna 46 other than the suburb of "Cornubia", and. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 644 D A HANNA Transcript produced by DTI 1 (h) the personal contact information or 2 dates of birth of any person; 3 4 referred to or adduced in evidence in the 5 hearing before the Commission on 6 18 September 2015 (or any adjourned 7 hearing) must not be published or disclosed 8 to any person except as specified in 9 paragraph 2 below. 10 11 Paragraph 2 deals with legal representatives of affected 12 parties and the staff of the Commission. "3" provides that 13 the direction remains in force until varied or revoked by 14 the Commission. 15 16 I make that direction and I sign a copy of it. Yes. 17 18

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 645 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 vegetable industry in the markets in Rocklea. Around about 2 22 I started in the building industry in the Gold Coast on 3 the commercial sites. Through that time I worked as a 4 builders labourer, concreting, rigging, digging, 5 scaffolding, workplace health and safety. I also started 6 representing workers as a delegate on sites and then 7 progressed to being asked to start as an organiser with the 8 Union in 1995. I worked in North Queensland for roughly 9 six years and then got transferred back down to Brisbane 10 where I organised the Southside and the Toowoomba region 11 and then eventually took over a role of Assistant Secretary 12 and then later on in the last couple of years as the 13 Secretary of the BLF Union. 14 15 Q. Do you recall when you became the Secretary of the 16 BLF? 17 A. I think it was around about the start of 2011. 18 19 Q. In terms of seniority, the Secretary is the highest 20 position in the Union? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Can you just indicate, before amalgamation did the 24 CFMEU cover particular parts of the building industry and 25 did the BLF cover other parts of the building industry and 26 if so, what were they? 27 A. The BLF covered the non-trades and the CFMEU covered 28 the trades. 29 30 Q. At a certain point of time, did you and your wife 31 purchase some property in Cornubia? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. When was that? 35 A. Roughly, three and a half, four years ago. 36 37 Q. Was that in about January 2011? 38 A. Yes, possibly. 39 40 MS McNAUGHTON: Could I have the witness, please, shown a 41 bundle of documents. Would you be kind enough please to 42 turn to page 1, being the title search, and page 5, being 43 the mortgage documents. Commissioner, just for the record, 44 the hard copy bundles have not been redacted but the 45 documents coming up on screen have been redacted. 46 47 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you tender --

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 646 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 MS McNAUGHTON: I tender the unredacted versions. 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Documents in the folder 5 "CFMEU (Queensland) Hanna House Expenditure" will be 6 Cornubia Case Study MFI-7. 7 8 CORNUBIA CASE STUDY MFI-7 - DOCUMENTS IN FOLDER TITLED 9 CFMEU (QUEENSLAND) HANNA HOUSE EXPENDITURE 10 11 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Do you see there that, at least at 12 page 5, it shows the mortgage document is dated 13 January 2011? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. And back on page 1, we have the dealing number set out 17 there dated 24 February 2011? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. Towards the beginning of 2011, you purchased the 21 property at Cornubia? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. When you first purchased the property, what was it, 25 was it land and a house, or what was it? 26 A. House and land. 27 28 Q. Did it have any other buildings apart from -- 29 A. Sheds. 30 31 Q. -- the house? Could I just finish my question because 32 it's hard for the reporter to record it. There was a house 33 and some sheds? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. How many sheds? 37 A. Two. 38 39 Q. Are they still there? 40 A. Yes. 41 42 Q. How big are those sheds? 43 A. Oh, as per the photos you've seen earlier, neither of 44 the sheds are still there. 45 46 Q. At a certain point did you determine that you wished 47 to build a new dwelling on the site?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 647 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. When we first bought the site it was an 2 investment property. We did buy it to move in - move there 3 eventually but we rented it out for a period of time while 4 we waited for the sale of our - the residence that we're 5 living in. 6 7 Q. That occurred, did it? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. When did that occur? 11 A. It might have been 18 months plus, I'm not exactly 12 sure of the time, but around that. 13 14 Q. If this was purchased at the beginning of 2011, you 15 managed to sell your other home at wherever it was some 16 time in the second half of 2012; is that fair? 17 A. Yes, around that. I don't - I'm not 100 per cent 18 sure, I haven't got it in my paperwork. That was all taken 19 from the house some time ago. 20 21 Q. Can you recall how much you sold that property for? 22 A. Roughly $600,000. 23 24 Q. Was there an outstanding mortgage on that property? 25 A. Yes, there was around about the 190, 200. 26 27 Q. Outstanding? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. So that was paid out? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. And then the remaining money was - where did that go, 34 the remaining money? 35 A. It went over to the Cornubia mortgage and left a 36 redraw amount on the loan. 37 38 Q. How much was available on the Cornubia property as a 39 redraw? 40 A. Oh, I couldn't - I would only be speculating. I can't 41 remember. 42 43 Q. You'd need to see the documents to confirm that? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. After you sold that house, you referred to the first 47 house that you had, at the second half of 2012 --

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 648 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. We sold two - sorry, we sold two houses at that point. 2 3 Q. Did you? 4 A. We had another investment house that - when we bought 5 the Cornubia house we sold another investment house, so 6 that was sort of, like, traded at the same time. The 7 people that bought Cornubia, they bought the other house, 8 our other smaller investment house that we had. Does that 9 sound confusing? 10 11 Q. Yes. Who bought Cornubia? 12 A. When Jenny and I purchased Cornubia, at the same time 13 we sold another investment property to the owners that we 14 bought Cornubia off. 15 16 Q. Right. 17 A. So it was like a -- 18 19 Q. That makes more sense. 20 A. Sorry. 21 22 Q. Two sales of two houses in 20 -- 23 A. 2011, or whenever we - yes, the same time. 24 25 Q. Right. 26 A. As in the -- 27 28 Q. You sold an investment property around about the same 29 time you bought Cornubia? 30 A. At exactly the same time. 31 32 Q. At exactly the same time? 33 A. Settled on the same day. 34 35 Q. So that's at the beginning of 2011? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. And you'd sold your other house? 39 A. Residential house that we were living in some 18-plus 40 months later, roughly. 41 42 Q. Both of those amounts went to your Cornubia house? 43 A. Correct. 44 45 Q. Or house and land? 46 A. Yes. 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 649 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. You had how much as the redraw? You don't know? 2 A. I don't. 3 4 Q. At some point did you determine to build a new house 5 at Cornubia? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. What documents would you need to determine how much 9 you had as at the point at which you decided to build a new 10 house in order to find that out? 11 A. I'd have to - that would, no doubt, be in some of 12 those bank documents. Bank statement, I don't know. 13 14 Q. We might be able to assist you over the weekend. What 15 bank accounts or bank account would be relevant to the 16 Cornubia property? 17 A. I think whatever the amount that was left over that 18 the bank didn't require for security, they put it into 19 I think it was my cheque account or savings account, 20 Streamline account. It would be 200 and something 21 thousand, so wherever that figure pops in. 22 23 Q. Is it the case that you still had a mortgage on 24 Cornubia? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. And you were paying a set amount of that off each 28 month? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. You had also amounts that you were putting into 32 another account? No? 33 A. No. When the Loganholme property settled they paid 34 out that loan. They took the security that they required - 35 the bank took away the security they required for Cornubia 36 and the remainder went into my savings account, I believe, 37 and then I transferred -- 38 39 Q. You have no idea how much that was? 40 A. No. It's 200 and something thousand. And then 41 I transferred that into the Cornubia loan pretty well 42 straight away, so we used that as a redraw facility. 43 44 Q. Can you recall, as a ballpark, how much your monthly 45 mortgage payments were on Cornubia? 46 A. Wouldn't have a clue. Back then? 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 650 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Yes. 2 A. Wouldn't have a clue. 3 4 Q. You wouldn't have a clue? 5 A. Not now. I don't know what the interest rates were 6 back then or - what I was paying back then was on an 7 interest only -- 8 9 Q. Was it a regular amount? 10 A. It was interest only and I couldn't recall. 11 12 Q. When did you decide to build a new house on Cornubia? 13 A. Oh, some time through that period, I don't know. 14 15 Q. At some point did you ask a builder for advice? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Who was that? 19 A. Shane Dalby. 20 21 Q. What did you talk to him about? 22 A. If he had the time to look at building me a home. 23 24 Q. He came over to your place, did he? 25 A. I can't recall. 26 27 Q. Did you have a discussion with him? 28 A. I had a discussion with him, obviously, about building 29 a house. 30 31 Q. Did you say you had a bit of a budget? 32 A. No, I asked - I gave him some drawings and asked him 33 for a price. 34 35 Q. Did he give you a price? 36 A. Yes, he did. 37 38 Q. Did you not indicate to him any indication as to what 39 you had to spend? 40 A. No. 41 42 Q. How did you get the drawings done? 43 A. Shane recommended a draftsman and my - we - Jenny and 44 I gave the draftsman an outline plan of what we wanted and 45 he did the drawings for us. 46 47 Q. Did you speak to Mr Dalby and then did you get him to

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 651 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 recommend a draftsperson? 2 A. He recommended a draftsperson, yes. 3 4 Q. And then once the draftsperson had drawn up something, 5 did you then go back to Mr Dalby to get a quote? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Did you talk to the draftsperson about any sort of 9 budget? 10 A. No. 11 12 Q. Who was your draftsperson? 13 A. I couldn't remember now. 14 15 Q. Are you saying that you gave no indication to the 16 person who was drawing up your plans as to what you had to 17 spend? 18 A. No, he was just a draftsperson, he's not a builder, he 19 just does drawings. 20 21 Q. Yes. You just told him what you wanted, did you? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Had you done some research prior to that as to what it 25 might cost? 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. None at all? 29 A. No. 30 31 Q. It might have cost $200,000, it might have cost 32 $2.5 million and you had no idea? 33 A. No idea. 34 35 Q. All right. You just had though - you and your wife, 36 presumably, had ideas about what you would like, if you 37 could? 38 A. We had our wishlist, yes. 39 40 Q. You had one set of drawings done, did you? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Only one? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Is that a "yes"? 47 A. Yes.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 652 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. You took those drawings to Mr Dalby? 3 A. As I said before, yes. 4 5 Q. What did he do when you gave him the drawings? 6 A. He took the drawings and went about the process of 7 giving me a price. 8 9 Q. Can I show you, please, a document at page 32. 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. That's the document dated 27 April 2012. It is for a 13 bobcat and excavator hire? 14 A. Mmm-hmm. 15 16 Q. Is that actually for the hire of the person and the 17 equipment? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. What was that to do? 21 A. It says there dig out for Pad and rip up rock, so 22 I would suggest that would be the footings of the house. 23 24 Q. That's dated April 2012. You had it in mind by then 25 that that's what you were going to do? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Then the next document at page 33, 11 May 2012, it's 29 the further hire of a bobcat and excavator? 30 A. No, sorry, no, that's not right. 31 32 Q. Okay. 33 A. That's - we had leaky water tanks on the site of the 34 old house, they were concrete tanks and they were leaking, 35 so we had to remove those tanks and that's what that is 36 for. 37 38 Q. That's the one at page 32, is that what you mean? 39 A. 32 and 33. 40 41 Q. What about 34, which is dated 15 May 2012? 42 A. It looks like - yes, I think once all that was all 43 taken out, we put some gravel down so we could park our 44 cars there where the tanks used to be where it was all 45 boggy. 46 47 Q. So that has nothing to do with the bobcat hire; is

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 653 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 that right? 2 A. No. 3 4 Q. Just looking over the next page, there's a bank 5 statement from a Commonwealth Bank account in your name? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Are you able to assist us by indicating what that 9 account is, what sort of transactions do you use that 10 account for? 11 A. I think it was one of my accounts where I pay my loans 12 out of. 13 14 Q. Can I ask you to look at 20 February. There appears 15 to be a loan repayment there of about $4,500 or so? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. Then there's another loan repayment, 19 March, of 19 about $4,300 or so? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. Then over the page, at 21 May, do you see over 23 $200,000 coming into your account? 24 A. There you go. 25 26 Q. What's that for? 27 A. That's from the sale of [ADDRESS SUPPRESSED] from 28 Loganholme, of our residential property. 29 30 Q. Loganholme - is that what you said? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Can we call it that? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. So that's the full amount after paying off that 37 mortgage, is it? 38 A. Yes, the rest of it went to the bank held in equity on 39 the [ADDRESS SUPPRESSED], sorry, on Cornubia. 40 41 Q. You said the rest of it went to the bank held in 42 equity in relation to the Cornubia property? 43 A. Yes. 44 45 Q. Out of that do you see that there's a home loan 46 payment of $48,000 on 21 May? 47 A. Yes.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 654 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. And I'm just looking at larger payments here. There's 3 a loan repayment of $4,400 or so on 21 May? 4 A. Mmm-hmm. 5 6 Q. There's a home loan payment on 22 May of $100,000, 7 this being the year of 2012? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Where was that home loan payment of those amounts 11 going to? Was that to the Cornubia property? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Is that the only home loan that you had at that time? 15 A. That I had, yes. 16 17 Q. Are you indicating that - when you said "That I had", 18 did your wife have other property? 19 A. My wife has an investment property. 20 21 Q. Do any of the payments for that property come out of 22 this account? 23 A. No. 24 25 Q. On 28 May, do you see there is a debit of $12,000 to 26 it says "bobcat"? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. What was that in relation to? 30 A. It wasn't a bobcat. I actually bought a backhoe. 31 32 Q. A backhoe? 33 A. Backhoe - that's just a bigger version of a bobcat. 34 35 Q. A bigger version of a bobcat? 36 A. Bobcat. It's a front-end loader with the digger on 37 the back. 38 39 Q. Did you operate that yourself? 40 A. Yes, I did. 41 42 Q. Then there is a home loan payment on 29 May of 43 $11,000? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. That's still coming out, it would appear, of the sale 47 of your Loganholme property?

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 655 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Then there is a loan repayment on 19 June, over the 4 page there, of $2,800, which appears to be a much smaller 5 sum. Is that because of the payments that you've been 6 making? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. Could I ask you please to turn to page 40. Do you see 10 that there? Is that the original contract with Mr Dalby, 11 the builder? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Was that later varied? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. As at page 41, the idea was the slab would be 70,000, 18 the frame 60,000, the roof 40,000 and lock-up 20,000? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Are you saying prior to getting that quote, you had 22 absolutely no idea how much that would all cost? 23 A. Prior to that? 24 25 Q. Yes. 26 A. No. 27 28 Q. That came to $190,000. So far as you knew, it could 29 have been that or it could have been $1.9 million and you 30 wouldn't have known? 31 A. It's a bit of a variance, that. I wouldn't think it 32 would be $1.9 million; that's being a bit silly. 33 34 Q. I've asked you, sir, did you have no idea and you 35 agreed you had no idea, so I am testing that proposition. 36 Are you saying that you had no idea or some idea as to how 37 much this would cost? 38 A. I didn't think it could cost anything over a million 39 to build the house. 40 41 Q. Did you have any figure in mind? 42 A. Well, I thought around the couple of hundred thousand 43 would get us to that stage, yes. 44 45 Q. Had you done any research in order to come to that 46 view? 47 A. No.

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 656 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. It was a just pure guess out of the ether, was it? 3 A. I work in the building industry. 4 5 Q. So you had some idea? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time? 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The hearing will resume at 10am 11 on Monday morning. 12 13 AT 4.00PM THE COMMISSION WAS ADJOURNED TO MONDAY, 14 21 SEPTEMBER 2015 AT 10AM 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47

.18/09/2015 CFMEU QLD 657 D A HANNA (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI