Archives and Special Collections Mansfield Library, University of Montana Missoula MT 59812-9936 Email: [email protected] Telephone: (406) 243-2053

This transcript represents the nearly verbatim record of an unrehearsed interview. Please bear in mind that you are reading the spoken word rather than the written word.

Oral History Number: 473-009 Interviewee: John Fleming Interviewer: Breanna McCabe Date of Interview: November 2, 2019 Project: Missoula Music History Oral History Project

Breanna McCabe: John, I’m just gonna have you start by saying and spelling your first and last name.

John Fleming: John Fleming, J-o-h-n F-l-e-m-i-n-g.

BM: We are rolling. Hello, I’m Breanna McCabe. It's Saturday, November 2, 2019, and with me here at the Mansfield Library on the University of Montana campus is John Fleming. John is the proprietor of Ear Candy Music, which opened September 21, 1997, and is now located at 624 South Higgins Avenue here in Missoula. John, thanks so much for being here.

JF: You're welcome.

BM: Please introduce yourself and share a little bit about your background.

JF: Well, my name is John Fleming. I moved to Missoula in 1991 to attend grad school, and I got my ABT degree, all but the thesis, so didn't quite get there. Then kicked around for a bit, got a job at Rockin’ Rudy’s, and then a friend approached me about opening our own store. Figured if I didn't take the chance, then it would never happen. So, I sold my 1958 Chrysler Windsor and used that money to purchase some product and liquidated my personal record collection—well, not entirely, but a lot of them—and that was my initial inventory.

BM: Wow! Oh, that is fascinating. What were you studying when you came to school?

JF: American literature with an emphasis on 20th century American playwrights, so yeah, practical degree there.

BM: When was it clear to you that you loved music?

JF: When I was probably 10—9 or 10—bought my first record, REO Speedwagon High Infidelity, and then Queen The Game cassette shortly after that, and then AC / DC Back in Black on LP. Then it got into like Rush and Led Zeppelin and things like that.

BM: One thing leads to another. Cool, and when did you start playing music?

JF: Oh, that came much later. I was probably 23. Well when I was in high school, my friend Chris Fisher who was in stage band or jazz band, I can't remember what it was, he had a base that he was selling. He let me take it home, and I…it just didn't happen at that point, so I was probably 1 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. 16 then. I gave it back to him after a week or two. Then after moving to Missoula, I just worked at the Old Town Cafe for like 45 days straight, and then took that money and bought a base and an amp. Figured if I spent the money on it, I was all in, and then I’d better figure it out. Yeah, I’m pretty much self-taught. My friend Kelly showed me a couple things, and he's like you can count to 12 and you've got a big record collection, so you'll be fine. [laughs] That's Gator for you.

BM: Where was this upbringing before you moved?

JF: I grew up in North Dakota, Jamestown, North Dakota, in the Midwest.

BM: That's great. Then Old Town Cafe is no longer—Where was that?

JF: Oh, no. That's where the James Bar is now. Yeah, the Old Town was great, but yeah, it's no longer there. I miss it. Don't miss working there, but it was good food.

BM: What did you do there?

JF: Oh, I was a dish pit warrior. That's a reference to an old Sputnik song—band in Missoula. I think it was the Sputniks that had that song “Dish Pit Warrior.”

BM: Sounds like a good one. What was the dish that everyone went to the Old Town Café?

JF: Oh, the buttermilk pancakes, the banana bread French toast, the banana nut bread French toast and the turkey bowl. The owner would make a turkey overnight like two or three times a week. It was cheap, man, like two bucks, two-fifty, but then again, that was 27 years ago.

BM: Sounds delicious. So, you started playing, you figured some things out because you had invested money in it. What was the first band you played in?

JF: The first band I played in was the Jolly Ranchers, and that was with John Knesek, “Tex”—that was the guy that I opened the store with. Yeah John, John Knesek, Troy Warling, and, oh, Tyler. Tyler Long was the drummer; I believe, he was the drummer to start with. Then we got Abe Barick (?) played with us eventually, and that didn't…that band didn't last very long. We have one song on one record—a comp record that Josh Vanek put out. Are you interviewing Josh, by the way?

BM: I believe one of my classmates is.

JM: Yeah, yeah, you definitely want to interview him. For sure.

BM: Good. Just for the historical accuracy, can you spell John Knesek’s—

2 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. JF: K-n-e-s-e-k. Tex. We call him Tex because he is from Houston.

BM: Okay, and then there was a Warling?

JF: Troy Warling, W-a-r-l-i-n-g. His nickname was “The Squirrel”—just, it's a long story.

BM: Happy to…we’ve got.

JF: Yeah, these…it’s just Troy. He would get crazy sometimes so we just call him The Squirrel.

BM: Can you move forward chronologically for us through your own band history from the Jolly Ranchers?

JF: Okay, so after the Jolly Ranchers, I was in a band called the Helltones. That was myself, John Knesek, John Carlson (?) was the original drummer, and then John Forrest Williams was the other guitar player. So, everybody in the band was named John; although we called—Forrest was how we referred to John Williams. Then after a short time John Carlson moved, and Yale Kaul took over. That band played for a while, called it a day when Tex moved back to Houston, and then I was in a band that was called The Blackout. The Blackouts? That was like, man, maybe a month or six weeks. Then I was in a band called…let's see, it was one of the guys from the Blackouts, Josh May, and then he and I started another band called the Everyday Sinners, which was myself, Josh May, Marcus Herring, and Jason Phillips. That band lasted a few years. Jason and Marcus moved. Said they were coming back, but Josh and I were like they're never coming back. After that, Josh and I started a band called the Hellgate Stranglers, and that was with Justin Lawrence, who ran sound at Jay’s Upstairs occasionally, and Chad Dundas. He was the drummer. I think…I’m trying to think…We had this guy, Wes. [pauses] No, Wes…I think Wes may have been in the Everyday Sinners, and then we booted him because he just couldn't…his singing wasn't…Yeah, we kicked him out. Anyway, the Hellgate Stranglers was myself, Josh May, Jason Phillips, Chad…Sorry. Myself, Josh May, Chad Dundas, Justin Lawrence.

That band lasted a few years. Josh moved back to Atlanta. Then I joined the Oblio Joe’s, and that band lasted until 2007. Then at that time I played with Shmed [Ryan Maynes] in a band called Secret Powers, and that was myself, Stu Simonson, and Dan Strachan from the Oblio Joe’s. Ryan Farley on guitar and then Ryan “Shmed” Maynes in the band. Then, oh god, it just gets so confusing. Oh, and Troy Warling, who I played with in the Jolly Ranchers way back in the early ‘90s, he moved back to Missoula and joined that band. After a bit, Stu moved to Olympia. Troy left the band; we replaced him with a member of the Oblio Joe’s, John Brownell. Secret Powers called it a day in, I think, 2014, and then four of us in Secret Powers started another band called Protest Kids. That was myself, John Brownell, Ryan Farley, Dan Strachan. About a year ago, Dan left the band, and we replaced him with Matt Bainton. Matt Bainton and I play in another band; we're the backing band for Sasha Bell. She moved here about four or five years ago, so we play with her as well.

3 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. During that time, I also played in the Scott Kennedy Band. I played bass in his band when he lived here. I also played in another band called The Quiet Ones. That was early 2000s. Then the Totten brothers, who wrote all the songs for The Quiet Ones, they moved to Seattle, and that was the end of that. So, I guess there's been a few. I probably forgot about a couple in there as well. I’m sure I did. Sure I forgot about a couple, but it's been a number.

BM: Quite the string and great memory.

JF: [laughs] There's a little bit there, I guess.

BM: I appreciate that outlining, and that's really good—

JF: It's pretty meandering but hopefully you can figure it out.

BM: Back then and now, do you gravitate toward listening to the same genre you're familiar with playing?

JF: [pauses] Can you repeat that?

BM: Back then, when you started playing the bass, and now, have your music tastes lined up or gravitated?

JF: No, they've changed for sure. I mean, I still listen to the same music that I was into back then. The Everyday Sinners and the Helltones was like real garage-y and punk, but Oblio Joe’s is a little more college indie rock. Sasha Bell is psychedelic pop songs, so it's all over the place. Hellgate Stranglers is a punk rock band for sure. I’ve never played in the country band; not that I wouldn't, but it's just never happened. I’m not talented enough to play jazz or read music or anything like that. That always impresses me when I can see somebody read sheet music—song they've never played before—and they just can do it. I can't. That's beyond me.

BM: Not your style?

JF: No, yeah, I’m not talented enough.

BM: Excellent. When did punk music arrive in Missoula?

JF: Oh, I would say back in the ‘80s. I would talk to Charlie, Charlie Beaton. Do you know him? He owns the Big Dipper Ice Cream. Is he on the list of people to interview?

BM: We'd like to.

JF: Yeah, you should get a hold of…he was here way early. I’d say probably Jeff Ament’s band Deranged Diction playing here in Missoula, and Steve Albini the producer—the guy that

4 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. produced the Nirvana's records and The Pixies—he went to Hellgate High School. You probably knew that, right? I can't remember the name of his bands. And Randy Pepprock. It was Deranged Diction, Who Killed Society, but this is 10 years before I moved here so. The guys from Silkworm, they were real early on. Yeah, that was before my time, so it seemed like they all moved to Seattle, and it was kind of hippie bands like Ramen and Box of Squash. Then Jay’s started hosting music, and then that's when punk rock seemed to kind of return. Although the first band I saw at Jay's was kind of a country, good time rock band called Cold Beans and Bacon, and they were great.

BM: So, you were really getting into town right as Jay’s was maybe starting to—

JF: Yeah, before Jay’s, there was a club called Trends, which is where The Palace billiards is at. I don't know if they still have the pool tables down there, but I saw…Trends was like early ‘90s ‘91 ‘92 ’93. Then Jay’s seemed to take off in about, I think, it's probably ’93—10-year run. It seems like it was a lot longer than 10 years, but it was only open for 10 years as hosting rock, punk rock shows upstairs.

BM: So you remember going there seeing Cold Beans and Bacon?

JF: That was the first show I saw there, and then it was after that it was always like…it seemed like every other night…Well, not every other night, like once a week Shades of Reality, Humpy, Oblio Joe’s. That three-band bill—that must have been dozens of times, those three bands shared a bill. That was long before I joined Oblio Joe’s. I mean, that band went for 14 years, and I only played in that band from 2002 to 2007, but they played from ’93—started ’93. Their early rehearsals were in a house that I lived in on South 2nd. That's how I met all those guys, probably in the spring, let me see, fall of ’92, spring of ‘93. Yeah, spring of ‘93 because I remember fall of ‘92 is when they start coming over and rehearsing. I remember going to…having a barbecue and then going over the bridge to Trends to see Firehose. So, that would have been like May of ‘93. Long time ago.

BM: How did you find yourself surrounded by these punkers?

JF: I just like music. Weird misfits like that, tend to find, gravitate towards each other I think. I don't know, man, just weird. Still friends with a lot of them, and some have moved on. I can remember faces but not names so much. Yeah, I saw Josh Vanek at the store last night, and we're like, ‘do you remember dancing guy?’ There's this dude that used to come to all the shows that Jay’s and he’d just bounce up and down. I can't remember his name; we just called him bouncing guy or something like that. Anyway, that's off point.

BM: I think it's right directly on point. What role did Jay’s then play in promoting the DIY music scene?

5 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. JF: Any band—you could just go down to Jay’s and ask Robin for the calendar and fill your band in. You could just sign your name on, and you had a show. It was really easy to get a show there. I mean, there's probably some bands that shouldn't have played, or maybe practiced more. That was kind of the place where, oh man, there's other people, they're into the same music, and then you just kind of coalesced. There was another show that was at…Oh man, I can't remember where…John Brownell would probably have a better memory. It wasn't at Jay's. It was at Slabs or something and I think it was a benefit for the Poverello maybe, and that was when it's like wow man there's like 12 different bands playing this kind of…That's kind of where everyone's like there's more people into this than we thought, and probably by that there's 30 or 40 perhaps. I think it was…that might have been the night the Roxy Theatre burned down as well. That memory is not…that's kind of hazy. John Brownell would probably have a better idea. You should interview that guy too.

BM: But there was a place called Slabs?

JF: Yeah, it's where Taco Sano is now. Yeah, I saw Bikini Kill there. Not very many shows there, but yeah, Slabs was like a pizza joint. I think Bob who owns Biga Pizza, I think he started there way back in the day. I think he did. I know Paul Meyers (?) worked there. Anyway, yeah, they used to have not many shows, but that's where I saw Bikini Kill and maybe one or two others. Yeah, that place wasn't around very long.

BM: You mentioned Robin, Robin Dent, at Jay’s Upstairs. What role do you think she played?

JF: Oh, man. She got it done. I mean she…the fact that she would just…She's pretty democratic. ‘Oh, you guys have a band. Here play.’ She would just turn that calendar over. Just this book you’d go through, ‘oh that date's open. Let's fill it in.’ She was awesome She ran that place pretty well, I thought, for how chaotic it was. They used to have a happy hour. Did she tell you about the happy hours? Oh, she did? 7:30 to 9:30. Then at 9:25 she'd be like ‘how many beers are you gonna drink tonight?’

‘I’ll take six.’

She'd give you tickets. She'd charge you at the happy hour price, and you'd hold these tickets and redeem them as the night went on. It’s like…Yeah, I mean, they had Jäger on tap. Jägermeister tap. That's crazy. Just asking for trouble. They did the Alabama Slammers—this horrid drink ain a test tube—and they'd have a rack of them. They'd go around. It's gross. I had one once. I’m like I’m not doing that.

BM: What was in it?

JF: I have no idea. BM: What color was it?

6 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. JF: It was bright pinkish red. Yeah, it was not good. Yeah, Rooster Sauce wrote a song about that. At least, I assume it was about that—about the Alabama slammer.

BM: Yeah, I want to be sure to give Robin credit where credit's due. Do you get the impression that Jay LaFlesch, under his own operation, the way it had been going would have unleashed this?

JF: No, no, no. No way, no. I don't think so. I mean, who knows. But I would say, if I was a betting man on that, say probably not. Jay was like, oh okay. The downstairs was, you had your regulars. I mean, he had his clientele built in there, but the upstairs I don't think there was a whole lot going on. Then suddenly it's like, wow man! I remember I was dating this girl Kristen, and she's like hey there's music at Jay’s Upstairs, let's go. I’m like what? We went, and it was Cold Beans and Bacon and for a stage they had pallets with a carpet over it. I remember that. It took a while for them to build a proper stage in there. Then the stage had a railing—Robin probably told you about that—had a railing around it. When the Hanson Brothers (?) played, they just tore that railing up, and it went out the back into the alley and into the dumpster. Yeah.

BM: Do you remember a vacuum mic stand?

JF: Oh, yeah. I do. Barely, and I remember this god-awful mural behind the stage. It was some ‘love your mother.’ Completely opposite of what was going on in that room. I’m sure there's pictures of that mural somewhere. Justin Lawrence probably has one. I think the vacuum mic stand. I think that was Dan Strachan, I think, from the Oblio’s. I don't know, man, that's a long time ago. It's kind of foggy that mid-‘90s to late-‘90s in there.

BM: I can imagine. How important do you think it was that Jay’s Upstairs allowed 18 and up?

JF: Pretty critical I think, yeah. There was underage kids sneaking in there all the time I’m sure of it. In fact, I know it, but yeah, that definitely helped. Yeah.

BM: Why?

JF: Well, it automatically increases the number of attendees, and then you got high school kids are like as soon as I’m 18, I’m going to Jay’s.

BM: Where else could they go to play.

JF: I remember Zach…no, Zach Dundas used to do shows at the Welcoma Club, which is out by Shopko—where Shopko used… building on Clark Street. It's a little community hall. I remember seeing some shows out there. The Union Hall upstairs would have shows; they still do sometimes. That's where Green Day played. The only time they've ever played in Missoula was

7 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. the Union Hall upstairs. Charlie Beaton did that show—the guy from the Big Dipper. Yeah, should definitely try getting an interview with him.

BM: Did you go to that show?

JF: No, it was it was four days before I moved here. I couldn't believe it. Saw the flyer on the on the telephone pole outside of Ron’s Roost, and I’m like oh man! Missed it.

BM: So you already knew about them?

JF: No, no, I saw the flyer, and I’m like—I could tell it was like punk rock show—I’m like, oh I wish I would have. That was August of 1991, by ‘92 I knew—before they blew up, I knew who they were. I had that first record, or the first two—first two records were on one compact disc. I had that I bought that at Wedgie Records (?), which did not last very long. That store was around for maybe nine months, something like that. Not very long at all.

BM: What did it take…what was the ingredients to get, for Green Day to make it big?

JF: I have no idea. Lucky. You gotta be lucky. I mean, you have to be good, but…Well, it helps if you're good, but it's all luck, man, in my opinion.

BM: We'll talk more about some of the bands that came through here. You mentioned kind of the average lineup at Jay's—the frequent bands—but what was an average night at Jay's? Let's say you were going down there. What did that look like? Was there a line?

JF: No, no, no, there was never really a line. I don't know. You'd show up, show up a little bit early, get the happy hour. [pauses] Sometimes it got to the point though where…I mean, some nights there was hardly anybody there. When I’d be working the door there, which I eventually did, it was like I’m not getting paid tonight. There's nobody here. Better drink as much Pabst as I possibly can, because that's…But yeah, some nights it was crowded though. Definitely when the Blue Meanies played there, and that was packed. When Schlong played there it was packed. When the White Stripes played there, not so much—20 people, maybe 25. That's it. Yeah, not a whole lot. That was in 2000, well before they, obviously before they were famous.

BM: Was there a story with a dirty sock?

JF: That was at The Ritz, the next time they came through town. Yeah. Shawn [Lambeth], the owner—that guy, jackass, total jackass.

BM: So they had a good impression after Jay’s and came back.

JF: Came back. The show—I booked both those shows, and that show, the second time they came back, it was packed. Shawn, I don't know what was wrong with that…well, I think I know

8 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. what was wrong. He's partying too much. I think he's up for a couple days if you know what I mean. He was just an asshole to Jack right off the bat. It was Jack White’s birthday that day, and it was when all the labels were trying to get him the sign with their record label. So all these gifts started showing up: flowers and candy and telegrams and messages from lawyers and labels execs. All this stuff showed up at The Ritz, and Shawn was like who the fuck is this guy think he is? Shawn was an asshole. He ruined. They'll never come back I mean Jack White told that to Jeff Ament, ‘I’m never coming back to Missoula.’ That was 15 years after it happened. He told that to Jeff, and then Jeff told that to me. I’m like yeah I wouldn't blame him. Yeah, Shawn ruined that.

BM: Can you tell listeners who maybe didn't hear the story what exactly transpired?

JF: White Stripes were playing at—I think it was called The Ritz at the time—and Jack White, he had an old, I don't know what kind of amp it was, and he had an Airline guitar. Kind of trashy gear. He kept getting shocked from the microphone, which then just put a cover over the microphone. Well, Shawn went and grabbed, took his dirty sock off, and put it on there. Jack’s like, what the? Then Shawn kept patching in on the monitors, “Happy Birthday, Jack.” It was terrible. Yeah, wish I could remember Shawn 's last name, man. I would spell it out for you, but I can't. He ruined…then Jack White was just ‘I can't take this,’ and that was the end of the show. Then basically a riot, pint glasses flying everywhere. It was crazy. Then I watched…everyone came out—the people working came out from behind the bar. Then I saw someone that was attending the show jumped behind the bar and opened up all the beer taps. There's beer pouring everywhere. I went back to close the taps, I mean, because I booked the show, and I’m like this is fucking crazy. I went back to do that, bouncer put me in a bear…had me and then Jack was like…Sorry, not Jack, Shawn—the jackass owner—told the bouncer to throw me out, and he's gonna keep all the money. I’m just like, Shawn, man. He had been partying for a couple days. Let me just say that. I think he was fucking delusional, man. He was out of his skull. I’m like you can't…just give me the money bag, I’ll pay the band, and we'll get the fuck out. Yeah, it was crazy. It was absolute craziness.

BM: I can't imagine that he was able to sustain that career with that attitude.

JF: I mean…yeah, I don't know what Shawn 's doing now. I think he's some rich kid. His parents bought him a bar or whatever. I’m sure he went back to California, but yeah, I saw him 15 years later. He came in the store, and I’m just, what the fuck? Get out! I was just stunned that he even would come in the store; I just didn't know what to say. Yeah, that's why the White Stripes have never come back to Missoula because of that guy. Terrible, not a good person.

BM: I appreciate you sharing how that transpired from your advantage point.

JF: Yeah, that's exactly what went down.

9 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. BM: That's good to know. So, it wasn't all, I don't know…I guess butterflies wouldn't be the right word, but—

JF: No.

BM: [laughs] You mentioned that you were a Pabst drinker at Jay's. Iit seems like that was the popular drink.

JF: Yeah, yeah. I can't do that anymore; I can't drink a Pabst.

BM: I was gonna say did you—

JF: I mean, I could, but I won't buy it let's just say that. If someone gave it to me, I’d be like all right. But no, kind of worn out that taste.

BM: Did you ever have to pay for the Pabst that you drank at Jay's?

JF: Well, yeah, before I worked there for sure, yeah. Yeah, definitely. But once I started working there it was like you could…From what I remember, you could pretty much have as much tap beer as you wanted.

BM: And the bands as well?

JF: I think the bands got unlimited beer. Which led to some terrible performances a couple times, I’ll tell you that.

BM: I imagine. You performed at Jay's then later on in its heyday, late ‘90s to early 2000s?

JF: Yeah, I’d say probably my first show at Jay's was ’95—something like that. I don't know, yeah. Then up until last day they're open. Yeah.

BM: What was it like performing there?

JF: I loved it yeah. It was great. Sometimes the PA wasn't the greatest, but it was fun, man. We didn't know what we were doing. It was just fun. Make a little bit of money and free drinks.

BM: There's this crazy reputation out there…I’m sorry if I interrupted you.

JF: NO, it’s all good.

BM: That the bands would be throwing certain items at the audience. Did you personally ever throw anything out?

10 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. JF: No. No, no, no.

BM: Do you remember seeing some things get thrown?

JF: Well, there was the kitty litter episode, is that where you're getting at? Did you hear about that one?

BM: I did. What do you remember about, were you there that night?

JF: I booked that show, and it was this band Famous Monsters. They were surf band, but that band had Sean Yseult from White Zombie. It was her band; she was in that band. So, it was packed, and this local band Sasshole would always be like ‘how come you never have us on your bill?’ Because I was booking some pretty good shows at that time. They're like ‘you never ask us to play. Never.’ I’m like well I got this surf band, all females, so you guys would pair up real good. They fucking brought a bag of kitty litter and fucking threw it everywhere, right? Have you heard the story? You know what happened. Well, it's dusty. So what do people do when it's all dusty? Everyone started pouring their beer on it to keep the dust down, and then it just turned into this sticky mess. I mean, it was fucked up. Yeah, the band, that band the Famous Monsters was just. They had vintage gear, and they were just freaking out with all the dust, covering up their amps. Jay made Sasshole clean that place up. I don't know.

BM: Do you remember raw chicken involved too?

JF: That probably happened. I saw The Banned out at Orchard Homes throw raw chicken out in the audience—athat was for a Halloween show. That was probably the first punk show I saw in Missoula. It would have been October of 1991, and it was at Orchard Homes, which is out on Third and Reserve. It's a nice venue. This was before Jay's, for sure, and yeah Charlie Beaton— again, he keeps coming up—he had a Superman t-shirt, this silver wig. Suddenly this chicken getting thrown. That's not healthy.

BM: I did ask Robin to do kind of a stream of consciousness list of what she remembered being thrown out at the crowd, but it sounds like this didn't happen as regularly as—

JF: Well, I wasn't there every night like she was, though, so. What did she list? Maybe I’ve just repressed all this shit.

BM: Oh, she had a broken guitar. Someone broke the guitar and threw it.

JF: Oh, yeah, that probably happened.

BM: Clothing.

JF: That probably happened.

11 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula.

BM: Fruit Loops?

JF: I don't remember that. but I wasn't there every night. Was there a lot but not every night.

BM: Yeah, I think the kitty litter was the story that keeps rising to the top.

JF: Yeah, yeah, that was just like, man, you guys. Yeah, I saw the band and the sound guy get into fights. That happened twice that I saw.

BM: Arguing over the levels, or?

JF: Yeah, one time this band the Go To Hells were playing. I think they're from Florida, and the dude—the guitar player—told the sound guy, Justin, I think it was Justin like, ‘no strobe lights; no strobe lights at all.’ Of course, Justin did it, and the dude has epilepsy. Man, the guy got pissed and like threw his hand. Then another time Zen Gorrilla was playing, and their lead singer—he has like this special mic or something, and it kept feeding back. He thought it was Justin's fault, and Justin's like, ‘fuck you, it's not.’ They got into it on stage, fell off the stage, and that got physical. The next band played and everything was totally dialed in, and I could see Marcus the singer of Zen Gorilla going like ‘ohh!’ Then by the end of the nigh, he and Justin were at some afterhours party bro-ing out. Everything was good. I don’t know, man. Some crazy, yeah.

Saw Pat Flynn cut himself one night after he'd been drinking so he just…and I remember walking outside afterwards because the back exit of Jay’s was this long, sloping ramp to the alley, and then it went down the steps. I remember leaving, and the EMT dudes were outside with Pat. As I walked by—because Robin, I think, called the EMT because Pat—it was whatever. As I walked by—I didn't stop; I just walked by. As I walked by, I just heard one of the EMTs say, “You did this to yourself?” [laughs] Yeah, he was trying to figure out what's going on. He’s like, ‘hold on.” They thought he'd been attacked, and they're like ‘hold on. You did this to yourself?’ Yeah, I can see Pat was all hesitant. At the last minute, he's like I shouldn't do this and then he just did it.

BM: With a—

JF: Just a little razor or something, right here [forehead]. I mean, he’d probably had 12 beers. It was just [makes sound]. Just, dude, idiot. Bunch of idiots there, man.

BM: He was from The Banned, right?

JF: He was in The Banned. He was a goofy dude, super talented. He had these bumper stickers made up that said “Pat Flynn for county coroner.” I remember those. Anyway.

12 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. BM: We should add one of those to our exhibit probably.

JF: If you find one. Charlie Beaton probably has it. Yeah. I think I found a box of old Jay's stuff. I think I got it in the back hallway at the store. Might not be in the best of shape, but I told Leif [Fredrickson] I’d pull it out.

BM: That'd be a great thing to showcase at our little—

JF: Yeah, when's this happening?

BM: December 7.

JF: Where at?

BM: At the new Zootown Arts Community Center [ZACC].

JF: Yeah, Kia. She was in Sasshole. I bet the kitty litter idea was hers. Nah, probably Millie's, Millie's now a probation officer, carrying a gun and has a badge. It's like, whoa, 180 degree turn there.

BM: Same with Jay’s—the interior anyway. When the future looks back on the importance of Jay’s, which bands do you think are most important to mention?

JF: Fireballs of Freedom, without a doubt, Humpy, Oblio Joe’s, Sasshole. Those are the big ones it seems to me.

BM: As far as regional and national acts that played there?

JF: Oh man, I mean like I said, White Stripes played there, At the Drive-in, Black Rebel Motorcycle Club. Black Keys were scheduled to play there, but Beck then asked them to open on a tour and it was the 10 days that—

You're interviewing Colin Hickey, aren't you?

BM: No.

JF: Oh, he's the one that took over the booking. I did booking for a bit, and within a week, I was like oh man, I can't juggle the store and my kid and the booking. I was like you got to get Colin Hickey to do it. Colin really dialed that place in I thought. Yeah, Colin works for VidCon now for Hank Green. He’s one of the higher-ups at VidCon, but I bet he probably still has his calendars. You can look through and see all…I mean John Spencer played there with Boss Hogg. I think Cursive (?) played there. There's some…yeah, it'd be interesting, be good to go back and look at the calendar because I bet there's a lot of bands that played there and there were five or ten

13 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. people [in the audience]. Then two years later, they're huge and you would never know they played there unless you went back and looked at the calendar. I wasn't there every night.

BM: Why do you think these touring acts decided to stop in Missoula and play it?

JF: I think Jay's just got on the little circuit: Ralph's in Moorhead, the Urban Lounge in Salt Lake, and then Jay. There's just a circuit of punk rock clubs. Euclid Tavern in Cleveland. Then a booking agent gets—once a booking agent gets one act in there, then they get their whole roster. They'll hit you up. Plus, it's a long drive from Minneapolis to Seattle or Denver to Seattle or Salt Lake to Seattle. You might as well stop.

BM: Sounds like some of the national acts didn't necessarily walk away with a lot of cash.

JF: No, no, no. Some acts that I would guarantee, that I was confident I’d make it. But Jay’s would take—the procedure was, they'd take the door money and take a third of the door money and that would go to the bar. Then they would take a third of the bar till and give that to the band. So, a lot of times you'd get more from the bar till than you would from the door, which that’s a pretty unique arrangement.

BM: How much did it cost to get in?

JF: Usually five bucks, three to five dollars usually.

BM: Every night?

JF: Some nights were free if I remember, but there’re usually a cover though: tow, three, five bucks. I mean, that was 20 years ago, and people still bitch about paying more than five bucks these days.

BM: Based on your knowledge of local record sales, what local band do you think have sold the most records?

JF: Fireballs…Well, if you count Colin Meloy from the Decemberists that hands down. Then local bands that move and then get signed. Silkworm Fireballs of Freedom. Those are probably the biggest ones.

BM: We'll get into your promoting as well, but what do you think have been the shifts of the genres of music, especially local music that Missoulians have consumed since the ‘80s to now?

JF: I don't think it's changed that much. There's not as many hippie bands. When I first moved here it was fucking patchouli everywhere. Seriously, deadheads and whatnot. Punk rock you got Flavortown [Flavortown DIY], the house venue, which is…I don't know how long…That guy's moving to Tucson. I went to a couple shows at this place Flavortown; I’m like that's kind of like

14 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. Jay's, punk rock, underground. The Top Hat's different obviously. Top Hat used to be all bluegrass and jam bands and stuff. I mean, just exclusively that, and Jay's was the punk club. The Old Post would occasionally have shows. We played there a few times when Janine (?) was the bar manager she had us in there. That place got crazy. A little different back then. Yeah, a lot of broken beer bottles on the floor when the lights got turned on. Yeah, long time.

BM: It's interesting these places that I didn't realize had live music at some point.

JF: Well, Old Post is no more obviously. That's pretty abrupt announcement. But yeah, they would have shows. I’d say the Ob’s [Oblio Joe’s] are probably the craziest band, or the most raucous band that played at the Old Post.

BM: The Ob’s?

JF: The Oblio Joe’s, the Ob’s. Yeah, sorry.

BM: What was this Ram It Home album?

JF: Oh, that was a comp that Josh Henderson and, god, some guy named Dave I can't remember his last name. Vanek would probably remember his last name. I don't know. They were like, oh let's make a CD because Dave had all this recording equipment at his house, so he had the bands come up and record and then put it all in one CD. Have you seen it or heard it?

BM: [unintelligible].

JF: That's a pretty good representation of all the local bands that played at Jay's. Yeah. That’s pretty much the roster right there.

BM: Why was it significant at the time? It was 1998?

JF: Something like that. I mean, everyone's like, we’re on a CD, look at that. I think a lot of bands, aside from Humpy. Humpy, they got…Humpy got pretty good recognition. Label out of Milwaukee put out a record by them. A label…they were doing split records with these crust punk bands from Finland and shit like that. Yeah, Humpy got pretty good—their reputation got outside of Missoula. So, aside from them not a lot of local bands didn't. No one was banging down the door to sign any of those bands to a recording contract. It's like, cool, look at this, we're legit, we're on a CD. That was probably the biggest thing.

I don't know, the some of the recording quality is…The mastering is probably—your mixing and mastering is probably where it was lacking. There was a comp before that though called Missoula, Montana. I think Rudy's put that…That's another one that was a lot of Jay’s bands. Charlie Beaton probably has a copy of that. [pauses] Yeah, I don't think I have that one anymore. I think this cowboy kind of cartoon or color drawing of a cowboy and some

15 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. mountains. I think it was just called Missoula, Montana: A Place or something I don't know. That was probably ’95, maybe ‘96.

I should see if I can scare…I bet John Brownell has that or Charlie Beaton has that. It was a lot of the same bands that ended up on the Ram It Home comp.

BM: Did anyone, or you, foresee Jay’s Upstairs closing in the early 2000s?

JF: No, but all good things have to end or whatever. Change happens. But yeah, I didn't expect it to…I’m sure Jay was like oh man I gotta retire from this. Liquor license is worth a lot of money, so he's like I’m done.

BM: What was the reaction among the people who frequented Jay’s?

JF: I don't know, man. It was weird. Big one was where are we gonna play? We can't play at The Ritz, can't play Top Hat.

BM: That was why?

JF: Oh, Steve Garr wouldn't book…That just wasn't his scene. So, he wouldn't book you at the Top Hat. No way.

BM: [unintelligible]

JF: Yeah, yeah. The Ritz. I think he Oblio Joe’s were probably the only Jay's band that played The Ritz. That'd be my guess just because John's music is a little more accessible than most of the stuff that was going on at Jay's at the time.

BM: Did the closure splinter Missoula's rock scene then?

JF: I don't know. I guess I never thought about it. I mean it scattered it is more like…it's a better term. I don't know. I mean, [pauses] I never thought about it like that. I wouldn't think so. I mean, everyone just kind of went their own way, figured out where to play. I’m trying to think where would bands play after that? Might have been, I mean, the Oblio Joe’s were able to have shows at the Old Post and Out to Lunch, and but I never thought about it like that. I guess if I had still been playing in the Hellgate Stranglers or the Everyday Sinners, I probably would have been like, ‘shit where are we going to play. There's nowhere to play.’ But that didn't cross my mind because I wasn't playing in those bands at the time, and the band I was playing in, we had other options. I mean, yeah, I don't know where anybody else…There probably wasn't anywhere to play there for a while, but I never thought about it like that.

BM: That was kind of where I was headed next, so did people keep in touch that—

16 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. JF: Oh, yeah, yeah, I would say so. Everyone's friends although you all have kids and families and shit now. At least for me, I was working at the store, so I’d see people all the time. And I was playing in…so I’d see the guys all the time working on a record in the back of the store. Yeah, I guess I never thought about it like oh I never see these people anymore. It's not like that for me. Maybe it was for some like, oh, no place to hang out. Yeah, I never thought about it like that because we're working on a record in the back of the store and playing shows and getting out of town and playing. Yeah.

BM: That's awesome. You already mentioned a few of the notable people who used to play at Jay’s and stayed in Missoula and now have these jobs at notable businesses—you being one of them. You mentioned Charlie Beaton.

JF: Owns Big Dipper Ice Cream.

BM: And you mentioned—

JF: Robert Marshall owns—Bob Marshall, Robert, Rob, I never know what he prefers to go by— but he owns Biga Pizza. Kia runs the ZACC. A lot of people have moved. All my band mates from Everyday Sinners: one's in Eugene, one's in Los Angeles, and one's in Atlanta. Josh is a tattoo artist in Atlanta. Jason works at a brewery in Eugene, and Marcus, believe it or not, is married to Francis Ford Coppola’s niece. He calls him Frank, and he works in the film industry and stuff like that. I mean, yeah. I never would have thought Marcus would marry Francis Ford Coppola’s niece I’ll tell you that. [laughs]

BM: If anyone else comes up that we should know about who's still around and was prominent in the scene, feel free to share.

JF: Yeah, I’m sure…Justin Lawrence is still around, Dan Strachan. Most of those people are still around but just got other things going on.

BM: What do you think the history books should say about the legacy Jay’s Upstairs left in Missoula?

JF: Oh, well, [pauses] I think it was important for people that they created their own music. Didn't really have a place to, an outlet for that, and then Jay’s came along. Everything kind of coalesced. My bandmate Stu from the Oblio Joe’s, after Jay's closed, he was like, “That place was a shithole.”

I’m like, “Yeah, but it was our shithole.” That's what I told him, so that probably sums it up the best. It was a fucking dive, man. I mean, it was a dive, but in the best possible way.

BM: That's great. John, I’d love to shift the conversation back to you a little bit before we close and hear about what motivated your decision to start Ear Candy Music.

17 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula.

JF: I never would have thought about opening a store unless Tex had not brought it up, and I’m like…I was working at another record store, and it just seemed like things weren't going to progress much there. I was probably going to end up quitting or moving on, and so when this opportunity presented itself I’m like, I’ll do it. The best thing for me with opening that store is the guy Tex that prompted me, that said, hey let's do this, he left after eight months. So, I was able to buy him out for nothing, which that was lucky for me because if he had stuck around and who knows how the store would have turned out. Having a partner is not ideal, in my opinion. It would have probably cost a lot of money to buy him out if he had been able to stick around for six or eight years. But as it was, we were less than a year old; store wasn't making any money. He just wanted to cut his losses and go back to Houston where his wife was. He thought that would work out, and I’m like dude that's not gonna work out. And I was right. That was fortunate for me that he decided to leave right away, and then it was all mine.

BM: Do you keep in touch with Tex?

JF: Oh, yeah, yeah. Facebook, little notes here and there, message here and there. I still have a silk screen print that I need to send him. It's been 20 years. I’m sure he thinks I’ve lost it, but yeah, I gotta send that to him. That'd be a surprise.

BM: Sounds like it ended on good terms then.

JF: Yeah, yeah. I mean, not so much then, but now everything's good. Yeah.

BM: Yeah. Do you miss your Chrysler Windsor?

JF: No, not really, no. Ended up selling it to the grandson of the original owner, yeah. Yeah, that Chrysler was a nice car, but I don't miss it.

BM: There was already a local record store Rockin’ Rudy’s.

JF: And Ron’s Roost [owned by Ronald K. Hughes]. And Budget (?) and then there was Wedgie, but he didn't last very long. Every time I’d go in, I’d buy something—spring of ‘92 is when wedgie was around. He had good stuff, man, so I’d go in and purchase, I’d buy something, but he wouldn't take that money and purchase more inventory. So his inventory just kept shrinking. So when I opened the store, I’m like every penny including the profit has to go into buying more inventory, so I worked a second job for the first three years to pay my house rent. Then every penny we took in at the store went back into buying more inventory. Now, I’ve got too much I think.

But Ron’s Roost was awesome. The guy sold used books, coffee, cigarettes, records, and then in the basement it was a bunch of old porno mags and movies. I can't remember Ron's last name, but that closed in probably ’98, ’99. I don't know, 2000, somewhere. It closed before the fall of

18 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. 2002, I can say that. But that's where Ciao Mambo is now. Yeah, yeah. That was an awesome store.

BM: There's a basement there?

JF: There is. In fact, I don't…you'd come in the front door, and the basement was right there. They've remodeled it and rebuilt the floor. Then it was the Joint Effort for a little bitm and then it was supposed to be a dry goods store and that never got off the ground. Then the restaurant moved in. But yeah, that was Ron’s Roost. Then right across the street where the Missoula independent used to have their offices, right where by Taco Sano, that's where Wedgie Records. You know Kent Brothers Auto? You got Le Petit, Kent Brothers, and then that door to the left of it's like a, it's a consulting firm or something. That's where Wedgie used to be, right there, and that's where the Independent offices were after Wedgie Records left. Then Budget was out on Brooks, and then Rockin’ Rudy's. When I first moved to town, Rockin’ Rudy’s is where the Food Bank and now Noteworthy, that's where they were located. Then it's probably a year or two after I moved here, they went to the Eddy’s Bakery building.

BM: So, over the years, you started to see one by one these places not cutting it. Why were you confident in your business?

JF: I wasn't confident; I just thought I’d give it a shot. Yeah, it was at a point where I’m like well better try now; if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Yeah, I mean, first few years I was realistic about. I’m like this is not gonna make any money to start with so I gotta have another job. My wife, at the time, she was really supportive. She'd help; she'd work at the store when she could. She kept that place going. She was the brains, like don't spend money on this. That's a waste of money. She was kept me pointed in the right direction, for sure yeah. Then early 2000s, I’m like all right it's starting to happen, and then fucking downloads and shit, iTunes and all that. That about knocked us out. There was a point, probably in 2007, where I was like I’m going to shut this place down. Then records started…people started, kept buying records, and then more and more people kept buying records. Then probably about 2008, 2009 everything was back to on track, so yeah.

BM: You anticipated what I was wondering about because that had to have been [unintelligible].

JF: Oh, yeah, man. There was a couple months from where I’m like, fuck, I’m two months behind on rent. They're gonna lock the doors on me here pretty soon. But I hustled and made it happen. Then probably around 2008, yeah probably, it started. Then by 2012, it really took off, and it's been good ever since.

BM: Sounds great. So good, in fact, it sounds like Rockin’ Rudy’s is bringing back vinyl?

19 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. JF: Oh, they've always had…yeah, Record Heaven has always been their store. Yeah, yeah. Then they moved off of Higgins to the warehouse that they’d been…They've had that warehouse for a while. I's big; that warehouse is big. Bruce is like, this guy keeps raising my rent on Higgins. I’m moving to the building I already own. Yeah. It sounded like the dude kept raising rent and raising rent. It’s like, who knows. I keep waiting for the owner of my building to be like I sold the building. You got six months to get out of here. We're gonna put a condo in or whatever. I expect that to happen within the next two or three years so probably should be a little proactive about looking for another location because it seems inevitable, doesn't it, that they're going to sell the building, right?

BM: It happens.

JF: I think it's going to start happening a lot, yeah. We'll see.

BM: We have to be out of this in about 10, 15 minutes.

JF: Cool, that’s fine.

BM: But I did want to ask you about your promotion career.

JF: Yeah, I didn't do a whole lot of it. I did a handful of shows, broke even on most of them. Didn't make any money. Lost a lot of money on one, and that was where I was like I’m done doing this.

BM: Do you care to share—

JF: Which band it was? It was Nebula. Yeah, I lost a lot of money. To this day, I haven't told my ex-wife how much money I lost on that one, and I don't know how she didn't figure it out but. At that point, I’m like I’ve got a three-year-old kid; I can't be throwing money around like this. So, I was done. Out. Finished at that point. Good show, but I was just I’m done with this. Yeah, promoting music is not a lot of fun. It's a lot of work and not much reward. There's not much monetary reward, let me put it that way.

BM: Does original music still exist in Missoula?

JF: Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. I think there's more bands, original local bands right now, than I’ve ever seen in Missoula. I mean, the most, hands down. Yeah, a nice eclectic variety of music.

BM: What's your relationship with an indie record store and those bands?

JF: I like to promote a local band if I like them. If they bring me a CD, I’ll put it on the shelf. I mean I’m not gonna…any local band—I don't care who they are—if they bring me a CD and say, will you sell this for me at the store? I’m going to sell it…I’m going to try to sell it at the store.

20 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. Yeah, no matter what. The smart ones figure out if they give me a free copy, then I can play it and someone might buy it. It blows my mind when a band brings me CDs to sell on consignment, and then they don't give a listening copy. It's a lot easier to sell a CD if I can play it for people, and it happens. I’ve played some shit, and people are like, what is this? It's right here, buy it. It happens occasionally.

BM: Why do you think Ear Candy music has lasted so long?

JF: I’m stubborn. I don't know. We have good customers, man, that's pretty much it. I’m lucky, yeah. I mean, customers make a store. That’s all there is to it, and you got to figure out what your customers want and make sure you have it. Also, then curate it with your own taste as well, but if I just sold Scandinavian black metal, I would not be around very long. You got to figure out what people like and fucking have it on the shelf.

BM: As far as Missoula goes and the customers that that brings, what is special about this place, or could that model have worked in other cities?

JF: No. The university helps. Fact that a lot of people come here and don't leave—come for school and don't leave. Definitely all the new music venues and the amount of music happening brings people. I can tell when people are from out of town, and they're here for the Robert Plant show or whatever. It's obvious. It's good. Yeah. So, those things. I think we'll be around for a while until I decide to call it a day.

BM: Have you changed your putting all your profits into inventory a little bit?

JF: I still probably buy more, I purchase…I’m still growing my inventory, let's just say that. I could probably take more money home, but I don't, yeah. People bring me records all the time now. When I first opened it, I’d be like come on man, I need used records. Now, some days I just groan when the fourth person comes in with a collection. I’m like fuck, I’m spending more than I’m taking…I mean, there's days where I spend more than I take in because I have five people bring me a huge collection. But you gotta buy it when you have a chance, I guess.

BM: That’s great. What else do we need to know in part of your memories of original music, your time [unintelligible]?

JF: I don't know. We're just fortunate to live in a town that supports that kind of stuff. Pretty much that's what it comes down to. It's been here long enough, one venue closes another one's going to open up. That's how it goes. VFW is awesome right now. It reminds me of Jay’s a little bit—a little cleaner, a little nicer, kind of got the same vibe sometimes. Badlander is awesome, so there will always be a place for music it seems.

BM: What's on your hat?

21 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula. JF: Which one am I wearing today? Oh, that’s Dead Moon, one of the best bands ever. You ever listen to them?

BM: I haven’t.

JF: Oh, check out the documentary. It's called, shit, Unknown Passage. Yeah, Dead Moon. I saw them at Jay's and the [unintelligible]. That band was incredible, incredible. Yeah Fred and Toody [Cole], husband and wife, and Andrew [Loomis]. Although, Andrew and Fred, they're not around anymore.They're a little older than average. When they played at Jay's, everyone's like, ‘look at those old people playing there.’ They're probably 48, younger than I am now, but at the time, it's like, ‘fuck those guys are old.’ Yeah, Fred died two years ago. I think he was probably about 73, and Andrew died probably five years—four or five years ago. He died a little…he was only like 55. He had cancer. But Toody, she's still around. There's a great article in Rolling Stone about her that came out about a week and a half ago, but yeah, Unknown Passage, I think is the name of the documentary. It's fascinating, absolutely fascinating.

BM: I will check it out. John, this has been fascinating as well. Thanks so much for coming in. We appreciate it.

JF: Yeah. Do you have Charlie Beaton on your list?

[End of Interview]

22 John Fleming Interview, OH 473-009, Archives and Special Collections, Mansfield Library, University of Montana-Missoula.