Seanad E´Ireann

Vol. 180 Tuesday, No. 17 31 May 2005

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Tuesday, 31 May 2005.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1253 Order of Business …………………………………1254 Aviation Action Plan: Statements …………………………1266 Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill 2004: Report and Final Stages ……………1303 Business of Seanad ………………………………1308 Disability Bill 2004: Second Stage …………………………1308 Adjournment Matters: Hospitals Building Programme …………………………1334 Pension Provisions ………………………………1337 1253 1254

SEANAD E´ IREANN I have also received notice from Senator Coghlan of the following matter: ———— The need for the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, to act immedi- De´ Ma´irt, 31 Bealtaine 2005. ately to ensure that the internationally known Tuesday, 31 May 2005. brand name of Dingle survives and is permitted in the promotion and signage of An Daingean ———— outside of the Gaeltacht, and to remedy the situation whereby foreign tourists are driving Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar around County Kerry with maps in English and 2.30 p.m. road signs in Irish. ———— I regard the matters raised by the Senators as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment and I Paidir. have selected the matters raised by Senators Prayer. Brian Hayes, Kitt and Terry and they will be taken at the conclusion of business. Senators ———— Morrissey and Coghlan may give notice on another day of the matters they wish to raise. Business of Seanad. An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Order of Business. Senator Brian Hayes that, on the motion for the Ms O’Rourke: The Order of Business is No. 1, Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to statements on the aviation action plan to be taken raise the following matter: on the conclusion of the Order of Business and The need for the Minister for Education and to conclude not later than 5.30 p.m., with the con- Science to provide funding for a new science tributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 room, or refurbishment of the existing room in minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed St. Macdara’s College, Templeogue, in accord- ten minutes and the Minister to be called upon ance with an application for funding which was to reply not later than five minutes before the lodged with her Department in 2002. conclusion of the statements; No. 2, Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill 2004 — Report I have also received notice from Senator Kitt of and Final Stages, to be taken at 5.30 p.m. and to the following matter: conclude not later than 6 p.m.; and No. 3, Dis- The need for the Minister for Health and ability Bill 2004, Second Stage, to be taken at 6 Children to provide an update on the design p.m. until 8 p.m., with the contributions of all brief for the Tuam Health Campus, County Senators not to exceed 20 minutes. Galway, as the design was completed by the former Western Health Board in October 2002 Mr. B. Hayes: Will the Leader make time avail- incorporating a community hospital, able this week for an emergency debate about the Alzheimer’s disease unit, child care training disgraceful revelations in the “Prime Time” prog- centre, primary care unit and an ambulance ramme on RTE last night concerning a nursing base. home? While the programme focused on one nursing home and most homes, private and I have also received notice from Senator Terry of public, are run in an exemplary manner, there is the following matter: widespread public concern following last night’s The need for the Minister for Finance to give “Prime Time” programme. It is clear that we a detailed breakdown of the \2.5 billion tax need a statutory independent inspectorate which breaks enjoyed by the pension industry; to list can issue reports in a more transparent way than the top ten individuals; and the top ten schemes is done by the Health Service Executive. Does benefiting from the tax breaks and the value of the Leader agree that the health authorities each one. should have the power to close down nursing homes which clearly are in contravention of I have also received notice from Senator public health regulations and regulations govern- Morrissey of the following matter: ing treatment of the elderly? This is a very serious The need for the Minister for Education and matter which has exercised the country since the Science to provide a list of all primary and sec- airing of last night’s programme. The Minister of ondary schools which lack the necessary facili- State with responsibility for the elderly should ties to provide the level of physical activity come into the House before the end of the week recommended in the national task force on to make a statement on the matter. obesity report, such as the schools in I ask all Members on all sides who have Castleknock, Dublin 15, and also to provide an expressed views in connection with the ratifica- estimate of the level of investment needed to tion process of the European constitutional treaty ensure that each school has adequate facilities to hold their fire and not take up entrenched for physical education classes. positions in advance of the Council meeting in 1255 Order of 31 May 2005. Business 1256

[Mr. B. Hayes.] I wish to raise one further item, a bank robbery mid-June when all member state Prime Ministers involving a shooting in Navan, because it is a will gather to discuss the position post-French most interesting situation and one that should decision. Clearly, the French no vote, is a body give pause for thought. People are horrified by blow to the treaty. We need time to reflect on it the increase in gun crime. I trace it all back to the and see the consequences. Irrespective of one’s so-called republican community because it helped position on the treaty, 90% of what is in the to introduce guns and drugs into this country but treaty is already in place in existing treaties. That that does not mean we cannot examine the posi- will continue in place irrespective of the other tion. It is very important to examine the situation. 10% which is new. We need to learn from the I was horrified to listen to the unending stream decision in France and consider the anticipated of gloating calls to the radio which said the gardaı´ domino effect — the objective that one country’s should have shot them all. The callers had no support would lead to ratification in other coun- sympathy for the families but the families may tries. That will become unstuck now. I ask not have had anything whatever to do with it and Members not to take up strong entrenched posi- they are human beings. tions in advance of the mid-June meeting I also feel great sympathy for the gardaı´ who between all the EU Prime Ministers and leaders. are decent, fine people. I understand one garda was in tears which is a very human response. Mr. Norris: I join Senator Brian Hayes in ask- However, when there is a situation where no shot ing for a debate on nursing homes’ treatment of was fired from the other side and several shots the elderly and congratulate a former Member, came from Garda sources, it is in the interests now Deputy O’Dowd, who was crucially involved both of the Garda Sıóchańa and the citizens of in this matter. I say that because he is a former this country that there should be an independent Member of this House and a fine politician not inquiry. Otherwise we will be told that what we from any partisan view because there are many have in the South is a shoot to kill policy—— on the other side who are equally concerned and Ms White: That is ridiculous. have a professional commitment in this area. It was very worrying to see the development of bed Mr. Norris: ——and we squawked loud and sores. Last night’s broadcast was an excellent hard when this was happening in Northern informational programme on which RTE should Ireland. We owe it to the Garda Sıóchańa to be congratulated for having taken the risk. make sure an independent inquiry is held. I will Attempts were made to prevent RTE showing it. end on this point. The programme highlighted issues such as the development of bed sores. Most people just An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has elaborated assumed, as I did, that bed sores develop auto- sufficiently. matically in certain circumstances when people are old but the experts said there is absolutely no Mr. Norris: The Minister for Defence, Deputy reason for them if people are turned in their beds O’Dea, said in a newspaper article in reference to in the proper way. We have learned a great deal Deputy Costello: from the programme, which was quite shocking. As if to add insult to injury, Costello referred We should consider legislation in this area as to the Lusk shootings with the extraordinary we must strengthen the inspectorate. What is the phrase: “Where people die as a result of Garda point of giving warnings to those who are action, there must be a proper procedures for inspecting? If it is announced in advance that an independent investigation into such inspectors are coming to inspect a nursing home, incidents”. one blows one’s chances of finding anything wrong. A nursing home has never been fined or Is this how Costello and the Labour Party per- closed although there are 30 nursing homes ceive what happened at Lusk post office? against which there are complaints. I do not An Cathaoirleach: We do not have control in believe this is confined to private nursing homes. this House over what Members of the other Those elderly persons in the care of the State House say. need to be looked after also because I know there are problems in that area, partly because of Mr. Norris: Deputy Costello’s reaction is most understaffing, pressure being exerted on people sensible and is in line with what happens in every and so on. One could not say that in the case of civilised country. It is no condemnation of the \ private nursing homes charging 45,000 per year. Garda Sıóchańa that there must and should be an I would expect to get cocktails at 4 p.m. and to independent inquiry. be turned every half an hour if I so decided. Mr. McDowell: I endorse what others have said Mr. Leyden: The Senator should not go there. on the subject of nursing homes. What we saw last night was deeply shocking. This situation was Mr. Norris: As this is an issue that affects all inevitable, given the utterly chaotic way in which of us, either directly or through our relatives, the nursing home places and nursing homes have Seanad should properly consider it. been dealt with in the past number of years. The 1257 Order of 31 May 2005. Business 1258 former Minister for Finance, Mr. Charlie the State. There should be no compromise on McCreevy, put in place a tax break and the that and to say it is not to be in any way unsympa- creation of places has been driven entirely by the thetic to the loss of life. We must decry the loss need to get bricks and mortar in place before a of life and we await the reports that will be made certain date and not by any planning nor any on the incident. It is essential that the House assessment of the available staff, nor by any reaffirms its support for the forces of law and assessment of the need in a particular area. There order in the State. are now too many places in some parts of the On the matter of the French referendum on the country and too few in others. There are also too EU constitution, the French people have spoken few public places everywhere and inadequate and it would be appropriate for us to reflect on staff numbers in most of the country. This type of and debate the outcome. The best time to do so abuse arises because of the lack of an adequate would possibly be after we have considered the inspectorate. It is high time we had a proper outcome of the ballot this week in the Nether- debate on the subject in this House and in the lands and next month’s EU Council of Ministers other House. meeting. One of the difficulties is that such refer- I also largely agree with what has been said by endums are increasingly becoming votes of confi- Senator Brian Hayes about the result of the French referendum on the EU constitution. In dence in the government, which is being confused the next few weeks or months it will be necessary, with the merits of the constitutional treaty. As as has been said by the British Foreign Secretary, one who is an enthusiast for the adoption of the Mr. Jack Straw, to reflect on whether this is the constitutional treaty, I hope we will support it appropriate way to ratify the treaty. We thought here. we might organise a virtuous domino effect but We were all appalled by what we saw in the we are very likely to produce a negative effect “Prime Time” programme last night from which instead. At the very least we are looking at a sit- serious issues clearly arise, most centrally related uation where getting the treaty ratified by even to the rights of patients. Having seen the prog- those countries that seem willing to do so will ramme it seemed that the rights of the patients lead to a measure of atrophy in the workings of had been trodden upon, which is not acceptable. the EU Commission and the European Union in We look forward to measures being introduced the next two years as we struggle from one refer- to deal effectively with the issues that were endum to the next. We must consider what is to raised. In the face of a rapidly aging population be done. it was appropriate to introduce measures to I ask the Leader to convey our congratulations encourage investment in nursing homes. What to the newly appointed French Ambassador and takes place inside such homes is separate from through him to the newly appointed Prime Mini- the need for additional nursing home places. ster of France, Dominique de Villepin. I attended a lecture which he gave in Dublin Castle last year, An Cathaoirleach: I wish to explain that some as did other Members of the House. He is a man latitude is given to the leaders of the groups. of great knowledge, notwithstanding his politics. Some 14 Senators are now offering and as they He also knows a great deal about Ireland and he know of the time constraints I ask them to be as could reasonably be called a friend of Ireland. brief as possible to include them all before the time expires. Mr. Dardis: Over the past several weeks there have been calls in the House for debates on law- Mr. Finucane: I support what has been said by lessness and crime because people are rightly Senator Dardis. We have consistently linked the concerned about these issues. With regard to the incident at Lusk, the first and most important growth in criminality with drugs. Human life is no thing to say is that nobody wants to see the loss longer sacred, particularly in our urban areas. We of human life in any circumstances. It is also have recently seen a big increase in the shootings important to say that members of the Garda of criminals. We must compliment the Garda, Sıóchańa are putting their lives on the line for the which is an unarmed force whose members con- citizens of the State—— sistently put their own lives at risk. The Minister recently allocated more than \6 million to Oper- Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. ation Anvil to try to tackle the problem and the incident in Lusk is a good example of tackling it. Mr. Dardis: ——and there should be some While we all regret the loss of human life, people recognition of that fact. who use pistols and other dangerous weaponry on an indiscriminate basis run the attendant risk Ms Ormonde: I agree. of others being armed. This incident has struck a resonance with people, which is why they have Mr. Dardis: In many of the media reports sub- empathised with the Garda on radio phone-in sequent to the event in Lusk it did not appear programmes. The people are sick and tired of the that this fact was taken into account. The House level of criminality in the country and want it to should express its gratitude to the gardaı´ for the be rooted out. We must show solidarity with the way in which they look after us, the public and Garda in this situation. 1259 Order of 31 May 2005. Business 1260

Mr. Leyden: I fully support a debate on private Mr. Coghlan: I share the concerns regarding nursing homes. The mission statement for the the situation in Lusk and compliment the gardaı´. Leas Cross nursing home claims: “The care we Like Senator Hayes and others, I am also worried provide to our customers is second to none.” It about nursing homes. We are all agreed that last claims to have in-house medical consultants and night’s programme revealed an appalling situa- its website states: “We listen to our residents . . . tion that shows a clear need for regulation and if there is anything extra they need we provide it inspectors to ensure proper standards. for them.” The website also claims: “We provide With the Cathaoirleach’s permission, I would residential care of the highest quality for those like to ask the Leader about the agreement seeking a pleasant retirement. We listen to our between the National Parks and Wildlife Service residents and are constantly seeking to improve and a Dutch university regarding research to be our service.” Last night’s programme showed evi- conducted in Killarney National Park. I am aware dence of psychological and physical abuse which of growing concern among conservationists and is disgraceful. People who watched the prog- wildlife officers about the impact on the habitat ramme were moved to tears. and wildlife in the park. Ostensibly it is research I commend those involved in the making of the into sustainable tourism. I would like to hear “Prime Time” programme. I also commend the more about it and ask that the Leader request Minister of State for calling on the Garda to carry a debate with the Minister for the Environment, out an investigation and press charges against Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche. those engaged in the psychological warfare carried out against those old people, which was Mr. Dooley: I too would like to raise the issue despicable. of nursing homes, which was dealt with in last night’s “Prime Time” programme. It is of great An Cathaoirleach: We are not discussing the concern to see how the elderly are being treated. matter now. The Senator has made his point. Is I agree with other Senators, particularly regard- he calling for a debate? ing the role of next of kin, which those concerned are obviously neglecting. I would like the Leader to take into account the question of prior notice. Mr. Leyden: Yes. The families of the residents There are various agencies in this country, such also have a role to play to ensure that the proper as the Criminal Assets Bureau and the special standards are applied. investigations unit in the Department of Agri- culture and Food, which have the power to swoop An Cathaoirleach: We are not discussing the on those whom they seek to govern without matter now. When we have the debate the notice. It is a crazy situation that we grant that Senator may raise all those matters. kind of notice to people betraying the elderly, destroying their lives in the way that we saw last Mr. Leyden: I ask the Leader to arrange an night. That they should get prior notice, allowing emergency debate on the matter. On the Lusk them to clean up their act a few days in advance, situation, I compliment and support the Garda while we facilitate people turning up at farmers’ Sıóchańa, which defends our rights and integrity. gates to deal with issues immediately is crazy. Those who live by the sword die by the sword. Would we have preferred a member of the Garda Mr. Quinn: When we read in the newspaper Sıóchańa to have been murdered last week, or hear on the radio of raids such as that which rather than people who are prepared to take guns happened in Lusk, we are frightened and motiv- in their hands and shoot other people? ated to do something about them. Last Thursday night, two armed gangsters raided one of my Mr. Norris: What about the RUC? supermarkets with balaclavas and sawn-off shot- guns. One meets the people who had to go Mr. Leyden: As far as I am concerned, the through that, talks to them because one knows gardaı´ had no other response to a loaded gun them and hears of their experiences, and then pointed in their face. realises that this was the 30th raid in the area in the past month — I am not sure that the figure is Mr. Norris: The same was true of the “Gibral- exact, but I am told that it is approximately that. tar three”. On the same night, another gang, without revolvers but with syringes, raided another super- Mr. Leyden: Like everyone in this House, I market. I mention this because it reminds us of would regret anyone losing his or her life, but if the horror and frequency of what is happening, people armed with guns turn up in a post office or of which I was unaware. a Garda station to shoot members of the Garda Last year a proposal was made that a Taser — Sıóchańa at will, the latter have no option but to a gun that sends electric shocks but does not kill defend themselves and our interests. Last Mon- — should be introduced. There was an outcry day, one of the post offices near the county because it was considered completely unsuitable. council was robbed—— When one compares using real guns and Tasers, one sees that we must change our attitudes in the An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Coghlan. way we did following the death of Veronica 1261 Order of 31 May 2005. Business 1262

Guerin. We passed laws and did things that we many of these people are placed there by the had not done before to stop the drug barons. We health boards. must now give serious consideration to the issue. The fault is our own, as a nation and as legis- Ms O’Rourke: Yes, they are public patients. lators, and we must do something about it. Dr. M. Hayes: The health boards have a con- An Cathaoirleach: Eight Senators are offering, tract and they can put whatever conditions they and we have only eight minutes, so I ask them to want in the contract. be brief. I will not be able to accept any more It seems there is a necessity for the relevant Senators. Minister to bring forward legislation on the regulation of charities. We were promised this some Mr. Glynn: I support my colleagues who con- time ago. I support the position of Senators demned the practices in that particular nursing Dardis and Moynihan on the gardaı´.Itis home. As someone who worked in that pro- unreasonable to expect a garda to wait until he is fession for some years, it was flabber- shot before he can respond. These events make 3 o’clock gasting that the problem of pressure an unanswerable case for the establishment of a sores was so extensive. It is one of Garda ombudsman who would move in quickly the most basic nursing procedures and there are and provide an important independent judgment many mechanical apparatuses that contribute to on whether this was done properly or not. the prevention of pressure sores, such as ripple beds, roto-rest beds and so on. However, it is the Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. professionals working in that home who puzzle me. They should be called before the fitness to Mr. Cummins: I called for a debate two weeks practise committee. I have long stated that there ago on the neglect of our elderly in the light of a should be an inspectorate of hospitals and nurs- report published at the time. What we witnessed ing homes. last night was absolutely appalling and something will have to be done about it urgently. I call for An Cathaoirleach: There will be a debate on the Health (Nursing Homes) Act 1990 to be this in which the Senator can raise all of those amended urgently and an independent inspector- points. ate to be put in place. It is right that we compliment RTE on the programme. It was investig- Mr. Glynn: Even where there were public beds, ative journalism at its best. no right was extended to health board members I compliment the gardaı´ who placed their lives to visit those institutions. on the line during the robbery in Lusk. Gardaı´ do Following the incident in Lusk last week, I so on our behalf every day in the course of their would like to affirm my total support for the duties. I agree with Senator Maurice Hayes that gardaı´. Anybody who goes in to a post office with the existence of a Garda ombudsman would offer a loaded gun goes in to murder. That has been the best means of investigating incidents such as proven time and again as the concept of self-pres- this. ervation kicks in. He that loveth the danger shall perish therein. Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : I wish to take up the point raised by Senator Brian Hayes. In small countries Ms Terry: I agree with all of those who like Ireland, citizens realise fully what it means to expressed their shock at the programme broad- be part of a partnership such as the EU. The cast last night. The way in which we care for our Union provides us with protection and oppor- elderly people reflects the type of society in which tunities. One element of that partnership is the we live. When families research a nursing home European Court of Human Rights. I am pleased and pay money to have their elderly parents that this court will next month examine alle- looked after, they are entitled to the best of care. gations of British collusion in the Dublin- When the State entrusts someone to the care of Monaghan bombings. The Justice for the Forgot- a nursing home, it is obliged to ensure that person ten group is to be complimented on its persever- is cared for properly. The Minister must put in ance on behalf of its members’ loved ones. The place the regulations necessary to ensure we get group contends that the British authorities did the best of care for our elderly people. We were not provide information to the Irish inquiry told this morning that legislation would be in because that information would demonstrate the place by next spring, but we cannot wait that extent of collusion by the British army and the long. We do not want any more elderly people RUC with loyalist terrorist gangs. I hope we will placed in danger and what we saw last night is give the group every support in its case before happening in other nursing homes. the European Court of Human Rights.

Dr. M. Hayes: I support those who seek a Mr. Browne: We must examine the issue of debate on nursing homes. The Minister should how nursing homes are defined. Difficulties arise look at the situation that pertains in Northern for those involved in their management because Ireland, where a social services inspectorate car- they are currently classified neither as commer- ries out scheduled inspections and spot checks. cial properties nor as hospitals. I brought a case We do not need to wait for regulations because to the attention of the House some months ago 1263 Order of 31 May 2005. Business 1264

[Mr. Browne.] Ms White: I met the Minister for Finance last of a nursing home in Carlow which had a sub- December. I congratulate the Labour Party for station for a telecommunications company following Fianna Fa´il’s initiative on child care. located in its premises. The nursing home was in receipt of \50,000 over five years for facilitating Ms Terry: As Fianna Fa´il is currently in the substation but no action could be taken Government, it has the opportunity to put against it because there was no formal definition measures in place. as to whether the home was a commercial property or a hospital. The situation must be clarified Ms O’Rourke: Senator Brian Hayes raised last because the patients in this instance were exposed night’s programme on nursing homes and the to risks from the associated equipment. need for an independent inspectorate. I concur Will the Leader agree to a debate on the func- with his assertion that, while the HSE is not cur- tion of regulators? We learn today that landing rently permitted under the 1990 Act to close nurs- charges are set to increase and will be regulated ing homes immediately, it should have this right. by the aviation regulator. It seems regulators Situations are often so awful as to require knee- serve merely to sanction proposed price increases jerk responses. Last night’s programme revealed instead of querying and perhaps rejecting them as terrible acts of vandalism on people. Like Senator they should. This is especially the case in regard Terry, I am unsure whether we can wait for action to the ESB given that the Commission for Energy until next spring. Emergency legislation should be Regulation has allowed prices to increase four introduced to allow the health authorities to times in recent months. This is not the purpose of respond. a regulator. The 1990 Act provides a framework for appropriate amendments in order to strengthen legis- Ms K. Walsh: I support Members’ comments lation in this area. I was reminded of man’s inhu- on the nursing home situation. However, the manity to man and events of the last world war, question must be raised as to whether the families of those resident in the Leas Cross nursing home including Dachau. However, these events, which were aware of any problems in regard to the went beyond unkindness, took place in this city treatment received by their relatives. I congratu- and possibly in other locations. People were late the gardaı´ who by their actions during the badly treated despite relatives paying significant robbery in Lusk have preserved other lives. sums of money for care. We should keep in our minds the image of the woman who was being Mr. Kitt: I welcome this week’s debate on the changed. She was treated recklessly and in an rights of those with disabilities. It is important awful manner. that we should also have a debate as soon as pos- Senator Hayes also asked that we would not sible on the rights of the elderly. It is clear follow- express trenchant opinions on the EU consti- ing last night’s television programme that this is tutional treaty before the next Council meeting a question of human rights. Action must be taken takes place. By that time, wise heads will have to provide more State beds. There are many worked through this matter. applications from the former health boards and Senator Norris also discussed the nursing the HSE to the Department of Health and Chil- homes issue and called for legislation to be dren seeking the provision of more beds. I hope strengthened. I would like to embrace the such provision will be made soon. whistleblowers rather than the programme mak- I congratulate RTE on last night’s programme. ers for revealing situations about which we should In regard to the costs of private nursing home all be aware. The Senator also complimented the care, it is necessary to examine the issue of the Garda on the shootings in Lusk. nursing home subvention. It seems nursing homes Senator McDowell claimed that some nursing in the east receive approximately three times the homes are chaotic and have inadequate and subvention paid to those in the west. It is time untrained staff. It is clear that improper health this situation was reviewed. care is provided. He also raised the EU constitution and congratulated the new French Prime An Cathaoirleach: That issue will be discussed Minister whose appointment followed quickly on as part of the debate on this matter. the previous incumbent being booted out of office after the referendum. Mr. Kitt: It is important that there be equity in terms of the subventions paid to those with eld- Mr. B. Hayes: If only that would happen here. erly relatives in nursing homes.

Ms White: I congratulate the sole Member of Ms O’Rourke: It will not happen the Labour Party present today for the bold here. initiative on child care taken by Senator O’Meara at that party’s conference. I would also like to say Mr. Browne: Does the Leader think it a good that imitation is the best form of flattery. idea?

Mr. Coghlan: It must be tied into the south An Cathaoirleach: The Leader without inter- east. ruption please. 1265 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1266

Ms O’Rourke: Senator Dardis expressed his Carlow, something of which I am not aware. He gratitude to the gardaı´ who put their lives on the also spoke about regulators. It is better to have line in Lusk and his regret at the loss of life. Any regulators. If there were a nursing homes comment on this matter should include such regulator—— regrets. No one glories in death. The Senator noted the vote of the French people and the Mr. Browne: They keep increasing charges. rights of patients involved in the nursing home scandal. Ms O’Rourke: No. The aviation regulator, Mr. I remember that Senator Finucane previously Bill Prasifka, does not simply increase rates, but raised the matter of criminality and the identifi- examines the background to each application. cation of people. Senator Leyden called for an Proper safety measures and security regulations emergency debate on the nursing home issue and at airports costs money. As one cannot skimp, it expressed his support for the Garda. I did not is better to be regulated than not. While I know of the post office raid which he mentioned. acknowledge that people have arguments about Senator Coghlan commented on the nursing big Government, we cannot have it every way. If home issue and asked about the status of the we want regulation of services, we have to pay research into the national parks and wildlife for it. service. Senator Dooley raised the issue of prior notice Mr. Browne: My point is financial. They are for nursing home inspections. A cigire can go into increasing costs. schools without giving such notice. Advance notice of inspection should not be given to any- An Cathaoirleach: Order. body who runs a service. The only way we can find out what is happening is if an inspector can Ms O’Rourke: Senator Kate Walsh referred to call in whenever he or she wishes. the nursing homes scandal and paid tribute to the Senator Quinn spoke about his supermarket Garda. Senator Kitt spoke about the rights of the and others which were raided. It is only when one elderly. We say a great deal about the rights of speaks to people who have been in such circum- various groupings, of which the elderly are the stances that one becomes truly aware of the panic least able to stand up for themselves. I agree that and great worry which arise. more beds are needed. Senator Kitt also said nursing homes in the east receive approximately Senator Glynn spoke about the “Prime Time” three times the subvention paid to those in the programme on nursing homes and the need for west. an inspectorate to visit them. While the Senator Senator White was very generous in congratu- said procedures and equipment were available to lating the Labour Party and, in particular, deal with medical problems, the owners of the Senator O’Meara on her child care initiative. homes in question were not interested in that. People should watch out. They heard it here first They were interested only in money — the bucks that Senator White will soon be bursting into in their fists — and piled in beds and employed print on the matter. inadequate numbers of staff to that end. Senator Terry also expressed her shock at the programme. Mr. B. Hayes: We hang on her every word. The problem is with public and private nursing homes, all of which should be subject to exten- Order of Business agreed to. sive scrutiny. Senator Morrissey spoke about nursing homes and the need for legislation on charities, with Aviation Action Plan: Statements. which I agree. It often strikes one that the signifi- Minister for Transport (Mr. Cullen): I welcome cant sums raised by charities suggest a need for this opportunity to address the Seanad on the avi- regulation. The Senator supported Senator ation action plan that was approved recently by Dardis on the Garda and spoke of the need for the Government. In deciding on this major and a Garda ombudsman. The House has passed the comprehensive plan, the Government has clearly Garda Sıóchańa Bill, which embodies the pro- demonstrated confidence in the future of our avi- posal for a Garda ombudsman. The Bill is before ation sector and for that reason has set out a clear the Daíl, though I do not know on what Stage. strategic direction and an unambiguous mandate for growth. The net result will be a stronger avi- Mr. B. Hayes: It is on Committee Stage. ation sector and a better future for the economy, customers and staff. Ms O’Rourke: Senator Cummins called for an The Government has decided in principle to independent inspectorate of nursing homes, allow the sale of a majority shareholding in Aer which I remember him raising in the House pre- Lingus in order to facilitate an equity injection viously. He said gardaı´ place their lives on the into the company while retaining a significant line, which is true on a daily basis. stake to protect the State’s key strategic interests. Senator O´ Murchu´ said we should continue to The Government also decided to appoint advisers support the Justice for the Forgotten campaign. to advise on the size, type and timing of the Aer Senator Browne said a telecommunications sub- Lingus sale transaction. This decision is the culmi- station had been situated at a nursing home in nation of detailed and comprehensive consider- 1267 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1268

[Mr. Cullen.] growth not survival. This decision provides the ation of the various options facing the company essential framework for the future of Aer Lingus. that has taken place over the past year. It is now It removes uncertainty and allows the airline to widely accepted, including by the unions, that plan and take the key decisions on a timely basis Aer Lingus needs access to equity finance in which is essential in this fast moving, volatile but order to grow and prosper. The Minister for Fin- dynamic sector. ance and I are moving quickly to engage advisers I now want to deal with the concerns on key and to consult with the company and staff, as strategic matters which have been expressed in appropriate. I understand that the newspaper the context of the State reducing its shareholding advertisements in this regard will be published in Aer Lingus. These concerns relate to issues before the end of this week. In selecting the most such as the loss of the Aer Lingus brand, loss of appropriate transaction mechanism, a range of direct transatlantic services and the loss of slots key issues will be taken into account, including at Heathrow. In order to address these concerns the price achievable. As regards the timing of a the Government has decided to maintain a sig- transaction, this will be dictated by the company’s nificant minority shareholding in Aer Lingus. In needs, its performance, the state of the aviation addition, other options such as specific share- sector and market conditions. holder agreements, covenants or commercial A key part of the decision is the mandate to arrangements between the State and the com- the board of Aer Lingus to prepare and submit a pany will be examined over the coming months plan for future profitable growth as soon as pos- with advisers to ensure that key concerns are sible on the basis that additional equity capital adequately addressed in the context of reduced will be available within a reasonable timescale. State ownership. Retaining ownership of over This decision allows Aer Lingus to secure funding 25% means, under Irish company law, that the for new aircraft and, in turn, to open and compete Government cannot be forced to sell its shares on new routes, particularly long haul routes. The and can also deny other shareholders the ability investment will result in a strengthening of the to pass special and extraordinary resolutions such Aer Lingus balance sheet and will ensure that as making changes to the memorandum and equity funds are available to Aer Lingus as part articles of association. of its overall funding mix. This is a key issue. In While I will take appropriate measures to pro- order to compete effectively, Aer Lingus must tect key strategic issues I do not share the nega- have the same funding flexibility as its competitive views of the Opposition on all these matters. tors. This was clearly identified in the Goldman I have no concerns that any prudent investor Sachs report as being crucial to the future success would want to destroy a premium brand like Aer of the airline as well as being essential for finan- Lingus or would cease to operate profitable trans- cial stability. atlantic services directly to and from Ireland. New For Aer Lingus to maximize its growth poten- investors will want to see Aer Lingus flourishing tial, in addition to having access to funds, it must in all its existing markets as well as exploiting the have a competitive cost base. It is, therefore, potential new long-haul routes present. vitally important that the existing business plan is I am also aware that increasing the commercial implemented in full. This will ensure that the air- opportunities for Aer Lingus in terms of services line has an appropriate cost base to support the between Ireland and the US is an important growth plan which the board has been mandated element in the overall strategic future for the air- to complete. It will be critical over the next few line. I will be endeavouring to achieve this out- months that management and staff work together come over the coming months. Aer Lingus has to achieve this objective. With access to funds and stated it could double traffic on US routes within continued progress towards greater productivity, a three to five year period if the market is Aer Lingus will be able to compete effectively opened up. and grow profitably both on short haul and long Currently, Aer Lingus can only operate sched- haul routes. uled services to five US points under the bilateral From an operational point of view, Aer Lingus aviation agreement. These are New York, has been performing well in recent years in a dif- Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and Baltimore. ficult climate for aviation. However, given the This restriction, which has been in place for many volatility of this sector where nothing can be years, is the response of the US authorities to the taken for granted there must be a clear focus on requirement in the bilateral agreement that all the key issues that will provide the basis for a airlines serve Shannon as often as they serve successful and profitable future for the airline. Dublin. The two most important of these key issues are Addressing this issue involves making adjust- funding flexibility, which the Government is now ments to the bilateral aviation agreement addressing, and the company’s cost base, which between Ireland and the US. In doing so, we must management and staff are addressing. A forward- seek to secure the best outcome for Aer Lingus, looking strategic plan for growth based on clarity our national tourism industry, Shannon Airport and progress on these issues is the next step. That and the Shannon region. In particular, I am con- is why I have focused on making the correct long- scious that the new board of Shannon is now pro- term decision for Aer Lingus. I do not want the ducing a business plan for the airport and that crisis cycles to keep repeating. I want to focus on clarity on future transatlantic aviation policy 1269 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1270 would be very helpful to that business planning between the Government and ICTU, which was process. agreed in tandem with last year’s negotiations on Negotiations between the EU and the US on the mid-term review of Sustaining Progress, will an aviation agreement, which would result in also be reflected appropriately in arrangements “open skies” across the Atlantic, are not active at for the conduct of the competition. present but it is likely they will resume after the The Commission for Aviation Regulation will June Transport Council, at which the Council will ensure that the level of investment is appropriate review the possible elements of an EU-US agree- through its statutory role in setting airport ment. This meeting is only a few weeks away. In charges. I am aware that, earlier today, the regu- the meantime, I am keeping the Ireland-US avi- lator published for consultation the new draft air- ation agreement under review, having regard to port charges determination for Dublin Airport. the EU-US negotiations. In the longer term, the Government recognises I welcome the recent appointment of Dermot that, based on current passenger volume growth Mannion as chief executive of Aer Lingus. I projections, further terminal capacity will be understand he will take up office in August. I required at Dublin Airport by around the middle express my appreciation to the chairman and of the next decade. In this regard the Govern- board for their ongoing efforts in directing the ment decided that preparatory work should begin airline. The staff, in particular, are due our thanks on examining the current legal and regulatory for their efforts. They work in a difficult industry framework governing the airport for the purpose and have had to adjust continually to change. I of identifying any changes that may be necessary assure them we will engage with the unions and to facilitate the delivery of the next tranche of the ESOT in a spirit of partnership to progress terminal capacity, namely, terminal 3. It is the the Government decision to ensure a viable objective of Government policy to underpin the future for Aer Lingus with the maximum number most cost effective, efficient and timely delivery of sustainable jobs. of terminal 3 in line with emerging aviation On the recent Government decision regarding trends, through an open, transparent and com- capacity provision at Dublin Airport, the petitive process. decisions on terminal capacity at the airport are With regard to contact stands for aircraft, the also a key part of the aviation action plan. In Government also recognises the priority associ- terms of access, inward investment, economic ated with the provision by the DAA of new pier development and tourism generally, Dublin Air- capacity at Dublin Airport and I have ensured port is, and will remain, the metropolitan gateway that the authority now has the necessary flexi- to the State. bility to respond appropriately to customer It is also noteworthy that the national spatial requirements in this area. The Government also strategy has acknowledged that the expansion of agreed that proceeding to finalise the indepen- the level of air services from Dublin Airport to dence of Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports on a wider range of destinations is essential in the the basis of viable business plans is critical to interests of underpinning Ireland’s future inter- achieving the strategic goals of aviation policy. I national competitiveness. Notwithstanding the will be progressing the restructuring of State air- greatly welcome increase over recent years in ports on foot of assessment of the business plans traffic at Shannon and Cork airports, and indeed currently being prepared by the airport at some of the smaller regional airports, Dublin authorities. Airport will remain crucial to the national econ- The Dublin and Shannon Airport authorities omy as a vital strategic component of national have been working intensively to identify new infrastructure. business opportunities for Shannon and con- The Government recognises the urgent need to cluded an agreement last year with Ryanair that provide for additional terminal and pier capacity will result in significant new business on Euro- at Dublin Airport. It agreed that the Dublin Air- pean routes. Securing access from Shannon to port Authority will build and own the new second additional destinations can provide new business terminal and the objective is to have the new opportunities for Shannon, and this is one pillar facility operational in 2009. Following consul- of the approach to future growth by the Shannon tation with its customers, the Dublin Airport Airport Authority. The two authorities have also Authority will develop the most cost-effective indicated that addressing the long-standing options for the design, building, financing and unsustainable cost base at Shannon is an essential operation of the terminal. Recognised indepen- precondition for future viability of the airport. dent experts with appropriate aviation and finan- The Shannon Airport Authority is satisfied that cial expertise will be approved by the Govern- necessary cost savings can be achieved and in this ment to verify the proposal on its behalf. regard, I expect that discussions will the trade Under the Dublin Airport Authority’s current unions will begin shortly. legislation, the operator of the new terminal will Turning to Cork Airport, this is one of the fast- be selected through a fully open competition, est growing regional airports in Europe. Since which will be organised by an appropriate inde- 1994 traffic at the airport has risen nearly three- pendent group or body. Selection of the success- fold to 2.25 million passengers in 2004. With its ful tenderer will be on the basis of the most econ- relatively large catchment area, it has good omically advantageous proposal. The agreement growth potential as evidenced by new routes 1271 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1272

[Mr. Cullen.] to fund the long-haul fleet. It is equally clear that launched in 2004 and 2005. Cork Airport will also the Government cannot — or should not — benefit from the major capital development now endeavour to propose to fund Aer Lingus’s long- underway, including the construction of a new haul fleet expansion. The Government’s terminal which will have a capacity of 3 million resources are needed in more high priority areas passengers per annum, with the facility to expand such as health, roads and education. to 5 million passengers, as demand requires. New We cannot afford to continue to bankroll Aer multi-storey and surface level car parks are being Lingus. I am sure other Members will remind the provided and a new internal road system is being House of the airline’s current profitability and no developed. Cork Airport will therefore be well one can argue with that. However, we must also positioned to respond to the region’s growth remember that Aer Lingus has been through a potential. number of economic downturns in recent years The business planning process currently and the State can no longer afford to take underway will provide a basis for effecting the chances with it. It is time to allow the private sec- restructuring and separating of Shannon and tor to step in and offer greater investment lever- Cork as fully independent airports. As required age to the company. under the State Airports Act, Senators can be I am sure many Senators will argue that the assured that the ability of both Shannon and Cork selling of a majority stake in Aer Lingus will be to operate on a completely commercial basis will disastrous for Ireland and that it will result in the be fully assessed as part of this process and will danger of losing our airline connections to the be factored into the decisions made. wider world, including Europe and the USA. When taken together, this package of measures Again, I do not believe this and am confident that will position the State airports as well as Aer the market will dictate. Lingus to realise their full potential in delivering There has been an enormous growth in the vol- international air access. I am sure the House will ume of traffic into and out of our airports in agree that this strategic approach is necessary to recent years. We are all too well aware of the underpin Ireland’s competitiveness, industry and phenomenal growth in travel, foreign holidays or tourism and to enable the economy to maximise city breaks taken by members of the public. The sustainable employment opportunities. I am market exists and is growing. I am confident that pleased that an outcome to the aviation issues has no airline, particularly Aer Lingus, is about to now been concluded in an inclusive manner. My walk away from the Irish market while it is approach has been to engage with all the stake- undergoing such tremendous growth. holders, listen to all views and then put forward The Irish market remains buoyant and it will a proposal that best delivers for the country. As continue to be there for Aer Lingus to tap into a result of the Government’s recent decisions, for and exploit. A domestic market leader, such as the first time Irish aviation has an action plan that Aer Lingus, stands to greatly benefit if a signifi- positions it for long term growth. cant capital injection to allow it to increase the number and type of routes it is offering to the Mr. P. Burke: I welcome the Minister to the travelling public is provided. The company has House. Some of the decisions that the Govern- indicated a wish to open new routes to the US, ment has taken over the last couple of weeks are South Africa and Asia. Such ambitious plans to be welcomed, belated as they may be. I am offer a major potential for the company’s growth pleased to have the opportunity to speak on the and I hope that it will now have to opportunity Government’s recent announcement regarding to advance these plans, which appear to have the aviation sector. However, the so-called “pack- been under consideration for several years. age” is very disappointing and extremely short- Concerns have been expressed that Aer Lingus sighted. It is typical of the half-hearted and ulti- will lose its identity and that its world famous mately weak approach that the Government brands will be diluted. This can be avoided pro- takes to all the serious problems and challenges vided the Government puts in place a deal which facing the country’s strategic and economic contains terms of contract that ensure the Aer development. There are two major aspects to the Lingus brand will be retained. It is crucial that the Government’s recent announcement, namely, the Government crafts the right type of agreement to sale of Aer Lingus and the decision to proceed ensue that this is the case. with a second terminal at Dublin Airport. These In terms of the landing slots at Heathrow, decisions have resolved little and they have again, any deal must contain the caveat that Aer created more questions than they have answered. Lingus’s landing slots may only be used for pass- With regard to Aer Lingus, I welcome the engers travelling into and out of Ireland. As decision to sell a majority stake in the company. regards fears that the slots will be lost to Ireland, This is a straightforward and economically such concern relates to my earlier argument that rational proposal. The facts speak for themselves. a buoyant Irish aviation market will ensure that Aer Lingus needs over \1 billion in capital to the Dublin to Heathrow route will continue to replace and expand its long-haul fleet. It has remain much travelled. It is currently one of the already self-financed the replacement of its short- busiest and most profitable in Europe and I do haul fleet from within its existing resources but it not foresee this changing. Indeed, any private sec- is clear it is incapable of stretching its resources tor investor involved with Aer Lingus is most 1273 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1274 likely to be eager not only to continue with the The result has been a political fudge by the route, but to seek to expand it. Government and an embarrassing climbdown by If it is accepted that private sector investment the so-called watchdog of the Government, the in Aer Lingus is on the way there is an urgent PDs. The Government has moved from the farci- need to consider the value of the company, cal position of being utterly incapable of deciding particularly at the time of its eventual sale. Its on one terminal to proposing a third terminal or value will be crucial if the company is to continue two further terminals. A third terminal, as every- to grow, fulfil its ambitious expansion plans and one knows, may never see the light of day, but at complete its survival plan. This is the real issue least it has the appearance of the PDs having and it is one about which most people are gained a crumb from the Fianna Fa´il master appalled by the behaviour of the Government in table. Nothing could be further from the truth. recent years. The figure of \700 million is now The PDs have promised competition at the ter- been bandied about by analysts and experts as minals, in the aviation sector and in public trans- the company’s estimated value. This is despite the port, but three years on we have not seen a shred fact that it made an operating profit of over \100 of competition. million in 2004. This time last year its valuation The PDs have rolled over to Fianna Fa´il, whose was much higher, with figures of more than \900 agenda is to appease the constituents of north million being regularly quoted. The only answer Dublin. No one can argue that Dublin Airport to Aer Lingus’s sudden fall in value lies solely in has a much wider remit. It is a vital piece of the Government’s corner. It has completely national infrastructure and is a crucial generator botched the handling of the Aer Lingus issue. For of economic, business and tourism revenue. The years the Government has promised that it would decision on the terminal should have been act and decide on Aer Lingus’s future but instead decided in the national interest, with a fair and it has dithered and the company has lost more rounded consideration of all the issues. This did than \200 million in market value. not happen. We have had a retention of the status Last summer matters came to a head when the quo and no prospect of real competition at the management team was unable to tolerate any airport. longer having its pleas for a swift decision on Aer However, what concerns me most is the Lingus fall on deaf ears. The members of that decision to locate a second terminal on existing management team, headed by Willie Walsh Dublin Airport Authority lands. In my view and whom I wish well in his new position with British that of my party, this is a wrong decision. Report Airways, decided the Government had no inten- after report has come out against such a measure. tion of acting and they cut their losses and left Such reports include those commissioned by Fin- the company. That management team was central gal County Council and the Dublin Airport Auth- to the revival of the airline and it had the poten- ority, which did not favour siting a second ter- tial to grow the company further. This is not to minal on Dublin Airport Authority lands. The take from the vital role played by members of the reason is simple. The Dublin Airport Authority staff of the company who must also be congratu- sites available are too constrained and do not lated on the work they did in recent years to turn have enough capacity to build the terminal we around the company. However, it is true that the need. If a second terminal was built on Dublin management team provided valuable leadership Airport Authority lands, it would run out of capa- to the company. city in a short period and we would be back to Even the Government’s report produced by the current position at the airport, which is one Goldman Sachs acknowledged the importance of of chronic overcrowding which poses a safety the management team and its significance in hazard. terms of ensuring continuity during the sale Passenger numbers at Dublin Airport are period. Instead the Government’s incompetence expected to rise to more than 20 million this year has meant that management team has walked alone. I do not see the value in building a second away and the company has been devalued by terminal which would cater for only an additional \200 million. This is disgraceful. It is a further 10 million passengers. If the terminal is not com- example, if one was needed, of the Government’s pleted until 2010, we will be well on the way to inability to effectively govern and secure the reaching that figure before it opens, given that national interest. It has squandered \200 million passenger numbers at the airport have grown by of taxpayers’ money. more than 8% in the first quarter of this year The situation gets even worse when one con- alone. Passenger numbers at the airport are rap- siders the Government’s approach towards the idly increasing. We need a solution to address development of a second terminal at Dublin Air- provision for such growth, rather than a half- port. Similar to its attitude towards Aer Lingus, hearted approach to dealing with this issue. it has procrastinated, hesitated and avoided tak- We should adopt best international practice in ing a decision on a second terminal at all costs. our development plans for a second terminal. When it was pushed into a corner of having to Best practice for the siting of new terminals indi- act, largely as a result of pressure from the Oppo- cates that they should be on a greenfield site sition, and conscious of the appalling over- which allows for future expansion. We are pitch- crowding developing at the existing terminal, it ing our sights too low. We need to plan for at was forced to make a decision. least 40 million passengers at Dublin Airport. We 1275 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1276

[Mr. P. Burke.] Mr. Cullen: That is a matter for the Dublin Air- are all too aware of the failure to estimate the port Authority. growth in traffic, particularly on the M50. We are aware of what has happened on that motorway. Mr. P. Burke: ——and that he will have the The congestion on it is a nightmare for motorists. best interest of the taxpayer in mind when mak- We are faced with funding the upgrade of this ing that decision. motorway which it is estimated will cost \500 million. Mr. Wilson: I welcome the Minister, who is a The Minister said that a group will be estab- regular attender here, and his officials to the lished to oversee the advertising of the sale of House. Aer Lingus, securing the best deal for the com- Aviation issues have been an almost perma- pany and selecting the most appropriate trans- nent item on the agendas of successive Govern- action mechanism with regard to key issues, ments for decades. Since my election to this including the price achievable. The Minister also House almost three years ago, it has regularly said that the open skies policy could have a big come up for discussion on the Order of Business impact in opening up more routes. Under the and Private Members’ business. bilateral agreement with the US, we are currently The reality is that there have been many crises only flying to New York, Boston, Chicago, Los in the aviation sector but little long-term plan- Angeles and Baltimore. Will a decision on the ning. At its Cabinet meeting on 18 May the open skies policy be made before the sale of Aer Government approved the aviation action plan Lingus or will all these details be taken into proposed by the Minister for Transport, Deputy account by the review group being set up to Cullen. The decision gives Irish aviation a clear advise on the best possible deal for the taxpayer? strategic direction and an unambiguous mandate for growth. A majority sale of Aer Lingus has Mr. Cullen: There seems to be some misunder- been approved in principle with the Government standing on the part of the Senator. We are not retaining a strategic stakeholding in the airline. I setting up a review group. Advertisements will be am glad that in his speech the Minister alluded to placed in the newspapers this week to bring in the retention of at least a 25% stake. financial advisers to conduct the sale. Financial advisers will be appointed to advise the Government on the size, type and timing of Mr. P. Burke: The Minister will bring in the sale. This decision allows Aer Lingus to advisers. secure funding for new aircraft and in turn to compete for, and win, new routes. If Aer Lingus flies to and from more destinations it can offer Mr. Cullen: Their role will be to conduct the greater choice to consumers, open new markets sale. An impression is being given that a group for Irish tourism and grow jobs. will be set up to advise us. Any private or public The Government’s decision ensures that for company in similar circumstances brings in finan- the first time there will be investment for growth cial advisers to conduct a sale. rather than just short-term funding to help in a time of crisis. I was pleased to hear the Minister Mr. P. Burke: The Minister has put advisers reiterate today that he and the Government are in place to conduct and advise him on whatever interested in growth, not survival. If the airline is portion of the company will be sold. He also to enjoy its full potential the existing business referred to the open skies policy. Will it be taken plan must be implemented in full. into account by such advisers when they advise As part of the aviation action plan the Govern- the Minister? Will the company be worth more if ment also approved the building of a new ter- an open skies policy is in place? Will all these minal — the famous terminal2—atDublin Air- details be taken into account because such a port, to be opened by 2009. The Dublin Airport policy would affect the price we would be able to Authority will commission terminal 2 for which secure for the portion of Aer Lingus that will be an open tender competition overseen by an inde- sold, given that its market value has been diluted pendent panel of experts will select an operator. \ \ from 900 million to 700 million on the basis of I welcome the fact that the full tender for the the figures being bandied about and having operation of terminal 2 will be awarded by the regard to the lack of decision making by the independent group to the most economically Government in recent years. sound proposition. It is vital for trade, tourism and our economy as a whole to improve access to Mr. Cullen: Some 44 new routes have opened Ireland. It is clear that we need extra capacity and in the past four years. That represents substantial I welcome the Minister’s commitment to ensuring expansion of the company. it is provided as quickly as possible. A new pier for aircraft parking stands at Mr. P. Burke: I hope the Minister will report Dublin Airport will be available from 2007. I also back to us on that before too long. I urge the welcome the Government’s approval of the triple Government to reconsider its decision on the safeguard to ensure maximum efficiency and second terminal at Dublin Airport. I hope he will cost-effectiveness of terminal 2, as outlined by the opt for locating it on a greenfield site—— Minister in his speech. The three safeguards are 1277 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1278 consultation, verification and regulation. Ter- hope of achieving that goal, even when such an minal 2 will be designed to meet the requirements assortment of people say “No” to everything. of airlines servicing Dublin Airport. To this end, the Dublin Airport Authority will consult in Mr. P. Burke: The Senator has grown very detail with the relevant airline operators. arrogant and it suits him. Aviation experts will independently verify the final specifications and costings of terminal 2. The Mr. Wilson: I congratulate the Minister who Commission for Aviation Regulation, in its inde- has been in office for only seven months. He has pendent statutory role, will ensure that charges consulted widely with the stakeholders, listened reflect costs appropriate to the building of an to all their views and put forward what I and my efficient terminal. The Minister stated that the colleagues in Fianna Faíl and the Progressive commission made an announcement today. The Democrats consider to be the best aviation policy Dublin Airport Authority will consult with the this country has seen. airlines and the independent experts will verify I pay tribute to the Aer Lingus staff and man- the design. This approach ensures that terminal 2 agement for all they did to bring the airline will provide the best outcome for the customer through a difficult period to its present position. and the taxpayer. The management, led by Mr. Willie Walsh, did a The aviation agreement makes very clear that good job but Mr. Walsh was wrong to state that long-term demand at the airport will be catered the Government had no interest in the airline. He for. Infrastructural logjams are often the result of and his colleagues were more interested in short-term thinking but this will no longer work. attempting to take over the airline for themselves If we are to serve a modern economy we have a than in serving the interests of the airline or the responsibility to think about the long term. That people. responsibility involves anticipating future passen- I also pay tribute to Ryanair, regardless of what ger needs at the airport by advance planning for we may think of some of the personalities involved in that airline. Today it announced that a third terminal. We need to plan far ahead for \ the delivery of transport infrastructure. This its profits have risen by 19% to 268.9 million approach should apply to aviation just as it does and that its traffic growth has increased by 19% for to other forms of transport. Preparing now to 27.6 million. I also pay tribute to Aer Arann would yield two clear benefits. First, it will ensure which makes a significant contribution to the aviation industry, particularly servicing remote that when passenger numbers determine a third areas. The airline recently celebrated reaching 3 terminal is required we are ready to respond and million passengers. second, ensuring extra capacity is delivered when I join the Minister in welcoming the new chief it is needed will avoid the costs that would come executive of Aer Lingus, Mr. Dermot Mannion, with providing too much capacity too soon. and wish him well in his new role. I pay tribute to In his speech the Minister stated that under the Minister who, after seven months of listening, company law, by retaining ownership of over brought this proposal to Cabinet where his col- 25% of Aer Lingus the Government cannot be leagues approved it. I wish him and the proposal forced to sell its shares and can also deny other the best of luck in the future. shareholders through its ability to pass special and extraordinary resolutions, such as making Mr. Ross: I welcome this debate and appreciate changes to the memorandum and articles of the fact that the Minister comes into this House association. There has been a great deal of scare- quite frequently and is willing to speak and listen mongering about this issue. I also welcome the to us, if not to take our suggestions on board. Minister’s comments on the loss of the brand, the At least he attends the House and gives us the slots at Heathrow Airport and the transatlantic opportunity to make those suggestions. This services. debate, which may have been useful a little earl- Senator Paddy Burke stated that this is primar- ier, is unreal partly because the events being dis- ily a Fianna Faíl plan and that the Progressive cussed have been decided in principle but also Democrats received some concessions or crumbs because the reasons the decisions have been from the master’s table. The Senator would use made have little to do with those stated by the his time better in consulting with his party col- Government parties. leagues and his party’s history in regard to Aer There were two driving forces in this great avi- Lingus, Dublin Airport and the other State air- ation debate, none of which have been mentioned ports. He should also spend more time with his in any of the speeches from the Government side. party colleagues working on the new arrange- It all very well to speak about great ment with the Labour Party, the Green Party, 4 o’clock strategic interests, visionary although Green Party members do not like men- decisions, long-term key directions tion of their party in connection with any future and even to straddle the ideological divide potential government, and with the rag bag of between the Progressive Democrats and Fianna Independent candidates which will be needed if Faíl. Good financial and economic arguments his party is to have any chance of forming a have been made on both sides but the two motiv- government after the next election. Most right- ating forces in this debate were purely political. thinking people do not think this group has any Senator Burke touched on it. What decided the 1279 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1280

[Mr. Ross.] I have not heard any credible justification for so-called “aviation action plan”, a piece of PR giving the contract to build, design and own the spinning euphemism which will get into the lexi- second terminal to the same organisation that has con of the Irish media if the Government has its made a complete and utter mess of the first ter- way? This great plan was decided by a few hand- minal. I would have thought there would have ful of seats in north Dublin. That was the motivat- been a sine qua non on this issue, that this would ing force. It is regrettable that such an important be an open tender to all comers, except one which decision on infrastructure should be decided by has proved beyond doubt its utter incompetence. someone who is obsessed with the political con- However, the Government has decided to award sequences in his own backyard. I refer to the the contract to the one organisation that has pro- Taoiseach. That is acknowledged by those outside ved its incompetence. the political arena as being the truth of the matter It is extraordinary that those who have proved and all other arguments are floss, dressed up as most incompetent are the most convenient. Pro- some justification for the decision. The Taoiseach vided the Government continues to own and dic- would not have minded whether the second ter- tate the terms of building the second terminal minal went private, public, DAA, or to the entre- there will be a soft touch. Private industry and preneurs provided it guaranteed seats. the private sector is not anti-trade unions but it is The other agenda driving this debate, to which not a soft touch either. It is obvious that as the the Minister referred unwittingly or otherwise, second terminal is being built the electoral time- was the trade unions. The Minister referred, as table will get tighter and as the demands being far as I can recollect, to the trade unions three made get stronger, the concession made will times regarding the necessity to consult with them multiply. on all occasions. The same tributes were not paid Anybody who would give the Dublin Airport nor care taken to consult with business and, most Authority-Aer Rianta this contract could not important, little care was taken to consult with have been in Dublin Airport during the past 20 those who really matter, namely the consumers. years. It is a total and utter shambles. Recently it was voted by Irish businessmen as the worst air- Mr. Cullen: That is not true. port in Europe. I will place a wager with the Mini- ster, and any other Member, that the same organ- Mr. Ross: Those who are benefiting from this isation will also be the chosen operator of the decision are the Fianna Faíl Party — the Pro- terminal when the time comes. gressive Democrats are suffering — and the trade This tender process which will be chosen by an union movement. This is because they have a “independent” body will arrive at the conclusion coincidence of interest here. The Fianna Faíl that all things taken into account the same State Party hopes this decision will hold the north organisation, which has run this slum out in Dublin seats. Its means of doing this is to keep Collinstown in Dublin Airport, should do the the trade unions happy. The trade unions will be same with the second terminal. I do not under- happy if the workforce is happy and in tact. The stand this on any grounds except those of party vast number of staff at Aer Lingus and Aer politics. The most powerful forces, the Taoiseach Rianta are resident in north Dublin. If the trade and the trade unions, have won this battle. The unions are kept happy, the workers will vote for consumer can go to hell for the next six or seven Fianna Faíl and hold those seats. God help the years. The Minister and those who made this Labour Party which was completely out- decision must know of the anti-consumer nature manoeuvred. It sat there while the Taoiseach of Dublin Airport, the cavalier way in which pass- used his party’s trade unions. The trade unions, engers are treated and the monopolies that exist in particular SIPTU, continue to fund the Labour there. Does the Minister park his car out there? Party and dictate policy to Fianna Faíl. It is a I am sorry, that is an unfair question for which I pretty good trick. They have both parties in their apologise. Does anybody in this House park their pockets. That is the agenda which has driven this car out there? It costs \30 for nine hours parking so-called “aviation action plan”. I do not believe at Dublin Airport. This is what the Dublin Air- it is an aviation action plan. This is a little sordid port Authority imposes. Does anybody every deal hatched because Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus change money out there? The foreign exchange had the same trade unions. It was agreed to let charges are outrageous. the trade unions decide the agenda and to call it an aviation action plan. Mr. Cullen: The Senator cannot blame Dublin There was, however, a minor tussle in the back- Airport. ground when the Progressive Democrats kicked up a little and said it did not like the State’s Mr. Ross: Sorry, I can blame Dublin Airport approach and wanted some private enterprise to and I will tell the Minister why. Dublin Airport save its face. It was given a couple of fig leaves charges International Currency Exchange, ICE, but lost its bottle on this issue. It comprehensively \1 million a year. This was the charge insisted lost the Aer Lingus battle on which it was outwit- upon by Aer Rianta because it had a quasi-mon- ted and just conceded on the airport battle with opoly for so long. That is why I blame Dublin Aer Rianta. Airport. 1281 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1282

I accept there is also a small Bank of Ireland going to be? It will be distributed everywhere in branch at the airport but ICE is in a monopoly multiples, dozens, hundreds and maybe thou- situation and can charge the customer what it sands of shareholders. Once it is distributed far likes. I blame Aer Rianta specifically because its and wide enough, who will be the largest share- charges are prohibitively high because it is a mon- holder? It will be the State, by a very long way. opoly. This is one of the reasons competition As the Minister proudly said, “Don’t worry, lads, between terminals might or might not be a good we will have 25%, a blocking shareholding.” This idea. Dublin Airport can also be blamed for the is the code for the unions. The State will still be car park charges. The airport is a shambles and a in control. slum. Thetoilets are disgusting. Everything is wrong because the attitude and the culture is Mr. Cullen: It could be Manchester United. appallingly negligent of the customer. The other reason this is such an appalling Acting Chairman: Senator Ross needs to have decision is an historic reason which is continuing his flaps and wheels down at this stage. to this day and which will continue after this happens. Aer Rianta has been a disgrace in terms Mr. Ross: I am just going down the runway. of political nominees to the board. It has been The other 51% will be distributed in such a way ruthlessly exploited almost exclusively by Fianna that no one will be able to touch them. The Fa´il as a safe reward for party political loyalists House has heard some scaremongering this after- who have then decided to run it as a personal noon. It is, “We are awfully worried about the fiefdom. I will not go into all the details. slots. We are going to protect them and the Every Member of the House will be aware of brand.” Nothing is more calculated to scare off what has been happening in Aer Rianta and the any potential investor than this sort of talk. He extraordinarily luxurious style in which some of will not get rid of the slots unless they are unprof- the board members have been capable of itable. He will not get rid of the brand unless it enjoying themselves. That system of political is valuable. nominees goes on to this day and will continue Acting Chairman: The Senator must conclude. under the present regime. Those who are appointed under whichever party will still be Mr. Ross: I am finishing. The State will go on loyal, first and foremost, to the party. This has trying to reassure its statist friends and every time been one of the diseases of the organisation. this is said, the value of the airline goes down. There is no reason to believe this will end; they The truth is that nobody cares. This is a political will not be appointed unless they are loyal to the solution to an economic problem. It is the worst party. If they are thought to be suspect or com- possible solution but the Minister and the mercially minded, they will not be appointed or Taoiseach’s friends in the trade unions can rest their appointments will not be renewed. The plan assured they have won an enormous victory. They for the airport which the House is discussing is are still in control of Aer Rianta and the second utterly flawed. terminal and they are still in control of Aer I wish to speak on the Aer Lingus decision Lingus. which is part of this deal hatched up to hold the north Dublin seats. On the surface, the decision Mr. Morrissey: I welcome the Minister to the on Aer Lingus might provide us with some sort House for this debate. Recently I met a Dublin of comfort that the State is going to sacrifice and businessman who employs 50 people in a give up its control. The trade unions, playing bril- medium-sized industry. He informed me that 20 liant ball with Bertie, have made a little bit of years ago if one of his machines broke down in noise and said they do not like this very much. Dublin he would be forced to wait until the fol- The House need not worry because they will not lowing day to book an Aer Lingus flight to do anything about it; they will not upset the apple Birmingham, stay overnight and fly back the next cart on this one. They are making all the right day. His machine would then need to be recom- noises by protesting a bit as though they did not missioned and it would be down for three days. get their own way which they did. Now he can book his flights for the next month in advance, whether or not he travels and his Mr. Cullen: The Senator is a great man for fic- machinery is back in operation within a few tion. He should write a good novel. hours. We are very lucky in this small country on the periphery of Europe to have two of the most Acting Chairman (Mr. Dardis): Whether it is successful airlines in Europe, Ryanair and Aer fact or fiction, the Senator has half a minute left. Lingus. It is ironic to be debating this subject on the 20th anniversary of the establishment of Mr. Ross: I will finish this point and then con- Ryanair and in the knowledge of its extraordinary clude. We are informed that 51% of the airline is success. We are fortunate that Aer Lingus has being sold. This is correct and the trade unions survived. kick up about it. Where will the other 49% be? This situation pertains today not because of It will be in the hands of the State and the unions, regulation but rather because of competition. the old alliance again. They are locked together Ryanair started that competition 20 years ago and and they will stick together. Where is the 51% set the standard for Europe and perhaps the 1283 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1284

[Mr. Morrissey.] There is no rail link, the bus link is not very world for competition in the aviation sector. Aer good and although the roads are not improv- Lingus has been forced to follow. Much has been ing, they are not great...While one intuitively made by Opposition speakers of the differences feels there is scope for improvement at between the Government parties on the aviation Shannon, I do not see how a totally indepen- package. Much newsprint has been expended and dent company, as opposed to independent much radio and television time devoted to the management, which takes a certain amount of aviation package announced on 18 May. It was independent initiative, will improve business at suggested that divisions existed about the work Shannon. The Minister has failed utterly to practices at the new terminal and that differing persuade me and many other people that such views were expressed on the flexibility of the new an improvement will be achieved. terminal and the efficiency of the existing Another Senator said: terminal. I refer to the issue of efficiency at the second My fear is — I do not say this in anger, terminal. The wish to read the following despair, in shouting or excited tones — that as quotation: the Government can no longer subsidise Shannon Airport, it will fall prey to other There’s going to have to be a different kind forces which would seek to use it for their com- of work practice and different kinds of flexi- mercial ends . . . We are a very small country bilities than are in the present arrangements. and the idea that competition would arise and That has been clear from the start. That is an be dynamic between the three airports is a pal- issue where people can put forward their plan. try excuse for putting forward the Bill. That is not a quotation from a member of the Let me outline what has happened at Shannon. Progressive Democrats. Those are the words of The airport has recently concluded a deal with the Taoiseach, which match perfectly and consist- Ryanair involving flights to Paris, Prestwick, ently the view expressed by his partners in Hamburg, Frankfurt, Liverpool, Stockholm, Government in all press statements and at Milan, Luton, Gatwick and Stanstead. It has also Government regarding what we set out to try to negotiated a deal for a Boston to Shannon route achieve. What we wanted was the best deal for and a Chicago to Dublin route. It has said that its the taxpayer in terms of the cost of the terminal future must be commercial rather than regulated. and the future of Aer Lingus. I hope this quo- This has happened in a mere 11 months. tation puts an end to that particular claim by the Some Senators said we were taking a leap into Opposition. I also hope that newsprint, radio and the dark and it could not happen. It has hap- television airtime can focus on the many policy pened. This shows what competition has done areas on which the supposed alternative Govern- around the country and it is good for the regions. ment agrees. That airtime should be very short. Ryanair has promised 350,000 passengers this Almost 12 months ago this House debated the year. By 2005-06 it has promised 1.4 million pass- State Airports Bill, involving the break-up of Aer engers. This is the single biggest tourism initiative Rianta. In light of the success of the break-up of in the country. These flights will be sold through- Aer Rianta, particularly for Cork and Shannon, I out the year and not just during the summer. remind the House of some the contributions Anybody can sell Ireland from May to August. made here at that time. It might be uncomfort- The difficulty is in selling it off-season. These able listening for some Members, so I will keep flights will be all year around and will bring the quotes anonymous. One Opposition Senator people to the mid-west and western areas, which shows what we achieved last year. Those flights said: have already received 450,000 pre-bookings, This Bill will have major implications for tax- which shows what competition has achieved. payers, the workers directly employed by Aer On the building and location of a second ter- Rianta and the travelling public [which, I pre- minal at Dublin Airport, it has been agreed that sume is the consumer] . . .The absence of busi- after extensive consultation with the airlines, the ness plans and the mixed signals from different Dublin Airport Authority will set about costing reports, such as the PricewaterhouseCoopers and constructing the new terminal. Again that report or the Farrell Grant Sparks, a report process will be verified. When it has been built commissioned by the unions, suggested that the real competition will again take place because the combined value of Shannon and Cork Airports operator of the second terminal will be appointed will drop by \110 million following the break- following a competitive tendering process. In that up, are very worrying . . . We seem to be tendering process all costs and prices will need to approaching this from the wrong direction... be on the table as if in a glass bowl. I would not We are being asked to take a leap into the dark have any problem if the Dublin Airport Auth- and this is totally unsatisfactory from every- ority was to win the contract. Up to now the one’s point of view. unions were happy to enter into an agreement for the provision of an independent terminal. They Another Senator referred to shortcomings in the had no problem with the word “independent” infrastructure in the immediate vicinity of and were even willing to buy a 15% shareholding Shannon Airport and said: as opposed to getting it for free. 1285 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1286

Mr. Finucane: What the Senator is saying is in Its future success can only be achieved by going direct contradiction to what he has espoused all out to fight for business with competitive rates. along. At a recent Oireachtas meeting, Mr. Gary McGann, the new chief executive of the Dublin Mr. P. Burke: It is terrible hypocrisy. Airport Authority, said that the greatest increase in traffic through Dublin Airport had been in the Acting Chairman: Senator Finucane will get his low-cost aviation sector. If that is where the busi- own chance to speak. ness is, the users of the airport must follow that model. If Ryanair can process 33% of passengers Mr. Morrissey: This is what the unions were with 16% of the ticket desks, one has to ask what prepared to do. It was not to be at a price less sort of efficiency savings must be introduced. than the price for that job in Dublin Airport That is why I support the current business plan, today — it was at the same price for that job — and I would support another; business cannot there was no race to the bottom as we often hear. stand still. The Opposition attempted to demon- However, the price to be requested was greater strate differences within the Government, but efficiency. I will give an example of such one need only look at the last election mani- efficiency. Dublin Airport has 140 check-in desks. festoes of the parties that would form an alterna- Some 20 of them, 17%, are operated by Ryanair. tive Government regarding both the terminal and However, Ryanair processes 33% of the passen- the sale of Aer Lingus. They are diametrically gers through Dublin Airport. That is called opposed, while the Taoiseach’s comments mirror efficiency and is reflected in its profit figures as precisely those of the Progressive Democrats. cited by Senator Wilson. When one considers how far we need to travel Mr. Finucane: For God’s sake, there has been in the aviation sector one must realise that a change of policy. despite the pain endured at Dublin Airport in recent years, Ryanair has 2,500 staff carrying 28 Mr. McDowell: It is sometimes said there is too million passengers. Aer Lingus has 3,500 staff much consensus in this House or in politics, but carrying 7 million passengers, which is a quarter on this issue there is very little. I agree with very of the number carried by Ryanair. Is the Labour little of what Senator Morrissey said and not a Party really suggesting the Government should great deal of what Senator Paddy Burke said. Of invest in that model, which is obviously not course, I agree with precisely nothing of what efficient—— Senator Ross said, although I am sure that we would both feel bad about ourselves were it Minister of State at the Department of Trans- otherwise. port (Mr. Callely): Perhaps Senator McDowell Mr. Cullen: What about Senators Finucane can answer. and Coghlan?

Mr. McDowell: Of course we are. Mr. Finucane: We know Senator McDowell’s sentiments after the weekend; he is consistent at Mr. Morrissey: —— and which is very volatile, any rate. Let us try to be consistent. cyclical and risky? We in the Progressive Demo- crats wholeheartedly support an equity stake of Acting Chairman: The Senator should try to considerably more than 50% in Aer Lingus. Only contain himself. then can Aer Lingus fight the good fight. Mr. Finucane: The Minister is being confron- Mr. McDowell: Is the Senator saying he sup- tational. ports selling an equity stake of more than 50%? Mr. McDowell: The outbreak of fraternity on Mr. Morrissey: I am saying from 50% up to my left is a little difficult to take at this time in 60%. The Minister said the Government would the afternoon. retain 25% and there is a further 15% for the Before coming to the substance of what I want staff. If 40 is subtracted from 100, it leaves 60, and to say, perhaps I might briefly address two issues a majority stake is anywhere between 50% and that it would be unfortunate to let pass without 60%. It is only then that Aer Lingus can take its some sort of comment. The first is the eulogising hands from behind its back, where they have of Ryanair by Senator Morrissey. He is right to been tied for the past few years. It had a Govern- say that it is an extremely successful business ment shareholder that by its very nature could offering a decent service to a great many people. not take a decision. Surely we should have However, one or two things should be put on the realised by now that the Government should not table. I am not sure to what extent Ryanair really be involved in such a sector, which is so volatile competes with Aer Lingus. They share perhaps and risky and in which decisions must be made three routes in Britain and another three on the not within three months but within two or three Continent. By and large, they serve different days. That is where I see the future of Aer routes, however. Lingus. I have no doubt it will survive and thrive, The Senator touched on the second argument providing a hub between America and Europe. towards the end of his speech, when he said that 1287 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1288

[Mr. McDowell.] in the morning, I cannot simply say that I would the low-cost sector was the fastest-growing. It is like to take an aeroplane from terminal one distinctly different from what was traditionally rather than terminal two. One simply does not operated by the flag-carriers, including Aer have that choice, which will be made for one by Lingus. It is fair to say that they have increased the airlines. numbers of passengers passing through the air- I suppose that the terminals can compete to port, but I am not entirely sure that it has come attract the business of individual airlines, but how about through competition. It has certainly not do they do that? Do they provide less expensive come about through direct competition on large services or better ones, or do they simply not pro- numbers of routes, since there is none. Ryanair is vide any? I am not persuaded that it can operate now a largely British-based airline with a rela- in an efficient, genuinely competitive manner that tively small number of services flying from this feeds through to better or cheaper services for country and even fewer that directly compete the customer. I do not see that happening, and in with Aer Lingus. any event it is clear that it is unlikely to occur as Another far more important point concerns a result of the current process. Dublin Airport Authority. Senator Ross has been I will spend most of my time on Aer Lingus. remarkably successful in infusing public opinion The decision is fundamentally wrong and flawed, with the notion that there are horribly inefficient assuming it means what it appears to mean. The companies that provide no service to anyone. Government has merely announced, very tersely, That is simply not fair to Aer Rianta or the that it will dispose of a majority share. It has not Dublin Airport Authority. I accept they have decided the capital base it thinks appropriate for deficiencies, not all of them by any means their the airline or how it will divest itself of that 51% own fault, although the design and construction or 61% share — whether it will be by private of pier C were not great. Dithering decision-mak- placement or by IPO. I do not think that it has ing over the years has not been helpful, but many decided what the end result will be in ten or 15 of those problems were created by politicians, years, or whether it will retain the 25% share who delayed for a very long time a decision on thereafter. pier D. In the 1990s they dithered for a very long The Government has decided that it will time before deciding on a growth structure for appoint yet another series of financial consultants Aer Rianta or, for that matter, any structure for to advise it on those issues. I heard the brief dis- the company at all. cussion between Senator Paddy Burke and the The company has been dealing with a building Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, when the that has stood for 50 or 60 years. It has grown latter appeared to say that the financial consult- incrementally in a not very efficient manner. Per- ants were there only to sell the airline. That is not haps someone should have suggested knocking really in line with the Government’s statement of down the whole thing and starting again some last week that they were to advise on the type time ago. No one did, however, and one cannot and timing of the disposal. It did not state that blame Dublin Airport Authority exclusively for those people would look after the disposal. If that that mistake. Aer Rianta, for almost its entire is the case, perhaps the Minister might clarify existence, has not only been profitable but very the matter. much so. I accept that improvements are neces- This is not by any stretch of the imagination the sary, but bashing Aer Rianta is unfair to the first time the Government has made a decision of company. this kind. In 1999, it decided on an IPO, and the The point should also be made that many of assumption at that stage was that it would be of the services that operate from the airport are the 85% of the company the Government still licensed or franchised rather than being operated held. That was subsequently cancelled. by Aer Rianta directly, including the shops, The Goldman Sachs report the Government check-in, baggage handling and other services commissioned last year is very interesting and where customers come into direct contact with quite accessible, judged against similar publi- staff. They are not operated by DAA or Aer cations. I will briefly relate three observations to Rianta staff but by individual franchisees. Of invite the Minister to comment on them in his course, it is the overall business of DAA to reply. The first point is that any transaction ensure that such services are delivered efficiently, undertaken regarding ownership structures but the flexibility to do so is limited to the initial should address the raising of equity capital for the decision regarding to whom one awards a fran- company at the same time as effecting the change chise, and one does not do that every day. It is of ownership. It also states that a change in the therefore not a matter for the day-to-day man- status quo without ensuring an adequate capital agement of DAA. I am not making excuses for base for the company would not be advisable. it, but we need a sense of reality. The point is surely that these are two quite dis- That impinges on the judgment regarding tinct and separate issues and that the Govern- whether any sort of decent or serious competition ment must address them as such. There is no indi- is possible between competing terminals in the cation that the Government has addressed the airport. Frankly, I do not believe there is any capital structure. reality to that. It certainly does not apply to the The second point raised in the report is that customer or passenger. If I wish to fly to Rome any partial divestment or introduction of a new 1289 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1290 investor should be viewed as the first step capital. From what little we have been told by the towards an eventual exit by that investor and Minister thus far, it is not clear at all. probably the State, through a subsequent sale or Senator Ross anticipated that in a relatively IPO. That was the advice that Goldman Sachs short period of time, the ownership of Aer Lingus gave to the Government less than a year ago. I would be dispersed and that there would be hun- would like to know if the Government considers dreds or even thousands of individual share- that such an observation is valid. holders. That may be the case but I doubt it. Third, the report states that the ability to retain Within a relatively short period of time, either control of strategic issues will be adversely institutional shareholders or another airline will affected by the introduction of any new investor, hold a majority share in the company. In five to although potential measures to mitigate this ten years, the State’s shareholding will be diluted. effect may be established. Goldman Sachs is We can see that very clearly from the experience clearly signalling to the Government that looking of other previously wholly owned state carriers in after the strategic interests will be extraordinarily Europe, where the initial shareholding of the difficult in circumstances where it is divesting State has been slowly but surely reduced, either itself of a majority shareholding in the company. by further disposals or by the issue of more shares These issues must be addressed by the Govern- to raise capital. In a relatively short period of ment now, especially if it has come to a con- time, the State’s holding will fall below the level clusion on them. needed to block an overall takeover. We must On previous occasions in the House I have out- anticipate that whatever the initial result of an lined my view and the view of my party on the IPO, those who really want to own the company strategic nature of Aer Lingus and I do not intend will do so. The likelihood is that in ten years’ to repeat it, but I would like to explore the basic time, British Airways or some other large inter- rationale for its disposal, which is to give the com- national company will own Aer Lingus. pany access to capital markets. The argument is \ British Airways may be interested in main- made that the company needs up to 1 billion taining the brand or maintaining the services to over the next five to seven years in order to Naples, Hamburg and other destinations that Aer replace the long haul fleet. We could punch holes Lingus have recently opened up. However, it may in that particular argument, but let us accept it not be interested in doing so in any recession. today for the sake of the argument. How does the After I was first elected to this House in 1992, disposal of 50% of the airline manage to do that? there was a major crisis at Aer Lingus. At the Let us assume that the Government receives \350 time, the services that were losing most money million for the disposal of its 51% share. Are we to understand that the Government intends to were the transatlantic routes. We made the argu- reinvest that money in the company? The comment, accepted by the Government, that although pany will by then be a majority privately owned they were loss making, they were still important company. Will the Government simply pocket the services to Ireland and they were maintained. I money or is it the intention to reinvest all or part am not persuaded that in similar circumstances, a of it on condition that the private sector investor private operator would have retained those also does the same? This assumes that a big insti- services. They may have been restored after 12 or tutional shareholder or another airline wants to 24 months, but a privately owned Aer Lingus at take a significant chunk of the airline. that time would have closed down the transatlan- Unless the gearing of the company is substan- tic routes. No one in either House has suggested tially increased or unless some of the assets are that would be a good thing. disposed of, then an initial public offering of 51% Given the cyclical nature of the business, it is will not come remotely close to meeting the sup- necessary to take a strategic view of what is a posed capital needs of the company. Those capi- strategic asset. My party is in favour of investing tal needs are the rationale for selling it in the first in what is a profitable company that is also a stra- place. This is a fundamental misfit which must be tegic asset. There is an onus on the Minister to addressed by the Government. stand his proposal to scrutiny, even on its own The claim is made that a part private, part terms. public, part worker owned company allows access to the capital markets and thus allows the com- Ms White: There should be an international pany to borrow. Where stands the argument that competition for the design of the new airport the company’s gearing is wrong, thus preventing building that is to be built by 2009. Dublin Air- it from borrowing? If it goes on as it currently port is chaotic at present. I am flying out of there does, in five years’ time its gearing will be on Friday and I dread it. unacceptable. That would surely also apply in the case of this new triple owned company. If the Mr. P. Burke: Will the Senator support my essential rationale for part privatising Aer Lingus party’s position? is that enough money is needed to do a certain job, namely, to reinvest in the long haul fleet, the Ms White: I am calling for an international very least we can expect from the Government is competition for the design of the new airport as a clear indication on how that will release the it is critical. 1291 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1292

Mr. Dooley: I welcome the Minister to the Acting Chairman (Mr. U. Burke): Deputy House for this important debate. We have had a Dooley should be allowed to continue without number of debates on all elements of aviation interruption. policy announced in the last few weeks. It is welcome to get clarity once and for all on these Mr. Dooley: The Government parties have the issues. I will try to address those elements that capacity to ensure the policies that are required have a particular relevance to the west of Ireland, will be developed and delivered in the coming the mid-west and County Clare in particular. years. It is important that the right solution is found In regard to the decision to sell a partial for Dublin Airport. There was much negative interest in Aer Lingus, the Minister and several comment during the last few months over the per- other speakers observed that Aer Lingus requires ceived delays by the Government in making this access to working capital in order to ensure it has decision. It is much better to spend the time going the capacity to compete with other significant through the planning stages rather than jumping players in the market and to develop the type of to conclusions much too early. route structures it has previously been unable to Successive Governments from all sides have target. The necessary replacement of the fleet, been responsible for making shoddy decisions on and the long-haul fleet in particular, should allow future planning for infrastructural projects. That Aer Lingus to target markets in the Far East and has got us where we are today with decisions on to ensure Ireland has a capacity to look further the West Link toll bridge and on other infrastruc- than mainland Europe and the United States. We tural projects that did not take account of the are all aware of the importance of the emerging expected growth. I welcome the fact that the two markets in the Far East, especially China. Their parties in Government have played an active role significance is recognised in the Government’s in ensuring that the right decision was made. Asia strategy as is the importance of developing There was an effort on behalf of the Oppo- business links—— sition to drive a wedge between the coalition partners on Dublin Airport. It was perceived by Mr. P. Burke: Will Senator Dooley undertake some elements in the media and in the Oppo- research on these new markets? sition that there were differences of ideology. I am sure that there were not and that the best Mr. Dooley: Senator Paddy Burke is well interests of society were taken into account by aware that I intend to do so. It is important that the two parties coming together. the country as a whole should establish itself as a base for investment from Asia, particularly A comprehensive package of measures has China, with a view to ensuring the continued been put together to ensure the level of develop- growth of our economy. ment required to cater for the future needs of the The Minister, Deputy Cullen, addressed a travelling public. It is good that this decision has number of the issues that remain to be con- been arrived at. However, there have been refer- sidered. Of particular importance is the strategic ences in the media to the effect that it is a fudge. issue of the slots at Heathrow Airport. The Government’s decision to retain a crucial share- Mr. P. Burke: The public knows it is a fudge. holding in Aer Lingus will ensure those slots are protected. An issue that is critical from the per- Mr. Dooley: From the perspective of the media spective of the west and mid-west is the import- and the Opposition, they did not succeed in their ance of daily access to the United States. This is aim of driving a wedge between the Government critical for tourism and for the development and parties and creating the false dawn of an election. retention of the business that has been estab- That was wishful thinking. lished in the region on the back of the work done The decision of the Government in this matter by Shannon Development over many years. As has once again shown the resilience and ability of Senator Finucane is aware, an integral part of this the two Government parties to work together for is the necessity to ensure direct daily links the betterment of the public. There is no doubt between the east coast of the United States and regarding the integrity the measures and Shannon Airport. decisions taken in this matter and the Govern- Anything that might threaten this would be of ment will continue to manage all necessary policy great concern not only to me but to all Oireachtas elements into the future —— Members who represent the mid-west. However, the retention of the golden share in Aer Lingus Mr. Browne: Has Senator Dooley been in will ensure the Government is in a position to Dublin Airport lately? deal with this issue over the coming years. There has been much talk in this regard about the liber- Mr. P. Burke: There will once again be chaos alised market and the open skies policy in part- there this Thursday. icular. The upside of this is the potential growth for Aer Lingus and the east coast but there is an Mr. Callely: Thousands of passengers pass equal amount of concern in the mid-west regard- through Dublin Airport every day without ing the lack of service in that region. I hope the experiencing any difficulties. Government will utilise its influence in terms of 1293 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1294 the share ownership to ensure Aer Lingus con- ensure it is capable of dealing with the challenges tinues to provide direct daily services from the that lie ahead. west. I wish to put on record the tremendous com- There is no doubt that the open skies policy is mendation that is owed to workers in public sec- a major issue for Shannon Airport. I compliment tor companies for their ability to recognise the the progressive approach of the group of organis- challenges ahead and their willingness to embrace ations that have come together in the mid-west the change necessary to take these companies from both the public and private sector with a into an environment in which competition is very view to embracing the changes that will arise as a much part of the reality, in a manner which will consequence of the open skies policy. This group allow them to develop. Those who have devoted is prepared to accept the challenges that lie ahead their lives to the development of these businesses but has also clearly stated the necessity of support — especially Aer Lingus workers — deserve all from the Government. I am hopeful that support our recognition and thanks. Any changes to work will be forthcoming. What is required is a tran- practices must be undertaken in a sensitive way sition period to allow for the phasing in or out of that takes cognisance of the tremendous input the current bilateral situation. The current workers have made over the years. In many cases arrangement involves a one for one system in they have forgone wage increases in line with terms of the landing of aircraft from transatlantic practices and customs that existed for many years points. The group to which I referred has stated in order to allow certain restructuring to take clearly that a five-year period is required to facili- place. It is important at a time when we are dis- tate the restructuring necessary for the transition cussing the part-privatisation of Aer Lingus that to the open skies situation. This seems to be a we should recognise the contribution that the reasonable timeframe. workers, including those who have retired, have There is a necessity to improve the infrastruc- made to the company. ture in the region to ensure the future viability of Shannon Airport. It is not merely a question of Mr. Finucane: I propose to give two minutes of the future viability of the airport as a stand-alone my time to Senator Browne. structure. Shannon Airport has been and must continue to be a key driver in developing the Acting Chairman: That is agreed. economy of the region through foreign direct investment and through facilitating the business Mr. Finucane: I welcome the Minister of State, interests and the major international corporations Deputy Callely. We are all grateful that the that have developed there. It also serves as a Government has finally made a decision on this gateway for tourism right along the west coast. issue. This was a classic example of Shakespeare’s Critical in this regard is the upgrading of the observation that procrastination is the thief of N18 from Galway to Ennis to dual carriageway time. The Government dithered over this matter status, which is already under review by the for months. Senator Dooley referred to the media NRA. This will reduce the journey time from but it was the Government that caused all the Galway to Shannon to approximately 50 minutes media speculation. I am amazed by Senator Morrissey’s inconsistency during the debate in and will ensure that large centre of population this House. He has given many radio interviews can provide Shannon Airport with the through- during which he repeated the Progressive Demo- put of traffic that is so badly needed. Although it crats mantra of the importance of competition. It is already at an advanced stage in terms of the seems to be game, set and match to Fianna Fa´il acquisition of lands, the fourth river crossing in regarding the terminal. At long last, the dithering Limerick must be expedited. I ask the Minister of is over and this decision has been made. State to consider these key infrastructural requirements as a matter of urgency. Mr. Callely: The big issue is that we must make Another important element is the delivery of the correct decision. the first phase of the western rail corridor. A rail connection from Ennis to Athenry will facilitate Mr. Finucane: As the Minister of State has said, access to Shannon Airport for rail we are holding a round table discussion on this 5 o’clock passengers from Galway. As part of issue. He should not interrupt me because I am this, the Government should secure able to take him on over various issues. the immediate involvement of Iarnro´ dE´ ireann in the development of a rail spur from the Ennis to Mr. Callely: I will take on Senator Finucane Limerick line which will connect at Sixmilebridge any time he wishes. through to Shannon Airport. This is a short section of railway but it would make a significant Mr. Finucane: The Minister of State would be difference to the airport in that it would create a a good man were he to address the NCT. triangle between Limerick, Ennis and Shannon. This would also facilitate access from Galway and Mr. Callely: I have done so. the west if the western rail corridor becomes a reality. An issue that relates to tourism interests Mr. Finucane: I wish to speak on the issue of and Bord Fa´ilte Ireland is the necessity to deal Shannon, which concerns people of the mid-west with the marketing and branding of the region to region. We debated the State Airports Act 2004, 1295 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1296

[Mr. Finucane.] five years would help Shannon to remain econ- the break-up of Aer Rianta and the creation of omically sustainable. the Shannon authority on an autonomous basis How will the Minister of State square the cir- but have not as yet reached a conclusion. The cle? Will obfuscation recur until the next election chief executive, Mr. Pat Shanahan, and his board in two years time? Decisions may not be made on have approached their business in a serious man- the sale of Aer Lingus or the bilateral agreement ner. Shannon, which has a current debt of \77 because local politics dominate the thinking of million, has lost money for many years. The Mini- the Government, as was always the case for ster for Transport made a promise to this House Shannon. However, many of the unfavourable that, with the break-up of Aer Rianta, Dublin changes which took place in Shannon were Airport Authority would take over the debt of brought about by Fianna Faíl. Shannon. Last year, Shannon lost almost \3 mil- We await action on the bilateral agreement. It lion. Passenger numbers there experienced a will have the economic effect of displacing decrease of 0.3% compared to 2003, whereas approximately 400,000 US passengers to Shannon Dublin experienced an increase of more than each year. One million customers of low cost car- 17%. Shannon Airport Authority, in order to riers are needed to make up for this economic attract Ryanair’s business, made the generous loss. Clearance of Shannon’s debt will require an concession of \1 per departing passenger, thereby estimation of the airport’s viability. Not only is incentivising air travel in that area. We are grate- Ryanair’s expansion needed but other low cost ful to Mr. Michael O’Leary for opening up four carriers must also be attracted. further airports to travellers from Shannon. I am critical of Aer Lingus outside of its trans- However, much uncertainty remains over atlantic base. The serious deficiencies that exist Shannon Development’s future as an organis- in terms of providing a viable service to ation to promote industrial development in the customers are noticeable if one attempts to make connections between Dublin and Shannon. I wish mid-west region. For a long time, it has acted as that Aer Lingus would look more favourably on a catalyst for industrial development and as a domestic business and at least provide the oppor- stimulant to tourism in the region. A cloud of tunity to fly between Shannon and Dublin. uncertainty hangs over this organisation. I have Regrettably, that service is not offered at present. often been critical of it but ultimately praise its Shannon is important to its region. It has long ´ work. Recently, the Tanaiste stated that the been an economic catalyst and has employed Shannon free zone would have to bankroll the many people. Uncertainty exists in the region and new Shannon Airport Authority. Shannon many pieces of the jigsaw will have to be put in Development was correct to say that this would place before satisfaction will ensue. I look for- have a catastrophic effect on its viability. ward to a reply which will address the concerns A further cloud of uncertainty hangs over the I expressed. dubious decision to decentralise Enterprise Ireland to Shannon. It is dubious in that a mere Mr. Browne: I welcome the Minister for Trans- two or three people have volunteered to transfer port and his officials to this House. It is amazing from Dublin to Shannon. The belief within that we are still discussing this issue in 2005. I was Shannon Development is that it will be absorbed spokesman on transport for the first two by Enterprise Ireland when the Minister of State years—— at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, finally decides, over the preferences of the Dublin Dr. Mansergh: On a point of order, I thought staff, that the latter organisation will move to the order of speakers alternated between the two Shannon. It is significant that within a few days sides of the House. of signing his contract with Shannon Airport Authority, Mr. O’Leary claimed that the collapse Acting Chairman: The Fine Gael Senators are of an Italian airline, Volare, meant that up to six sharing time. Italian airports were competing to attract Ryanair at more attractive terms than those offered by Dr. Mansergh: Was that pointed out? I do not Shannon. This serves as an example of the exist- think it was. ing uncertainty and competition. Mr. Finucane: It was said at the start of the The discontinuation of the bilateral agreement debate. Was Senator Mansergh in the House? If is a cause for concern in Shannon. This must be he was, he must have not been listening. examined in the contexts of the Minister of State’s speech and Aer Lingus. If the bilateral Mr. Browne: Most of the spokespersons on this status of Shannon is discontinued, followed by subject have changed, as have the relevant Mini- the sale of 51% of Aer Lingus, that airline will sters. As Senator Finucane said, the recent then become more profitable through the open- Government announcement was game, set and ing of the American market. How is this rec- match to Fianna Faíl. The Progressive Demo- onciled with a situation where a prominent direc- crats, passengers and taxpayers were definite tor from Shannon said that the discontinuation losers. In years to come, we will look back on this of the bilateral agreement would be accepted on time as a missed opportunity. I have often been condition that it is phased over five years? These asked why Baldonnel was not considered as a 1297 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1298 second airport. People from Carlow would wel- There is an instinctive reaction in some quar- come this as they would not have to cross the city. ters against any form of privatisation. Some of Why is everyone forced to use Dublin Airport? the voices from those quarters were heard at the Most capitals have two airports. Labour Party conference at the weekend. I am I welcome the decision to sell the majority not inclined to entertain lectures from such shareholding in a firm which will realise voices. I have been around long enough to important capital. However, we should look care- remember what happened to Irish Shipping fully at the lessons to be learned from the Eircom which was simply abandoned when the Taoiseach privatisation debacle, when taxpayers got a bad of the day went on what he called a white eleph- deal. Similarly, taxpayers and farmers got a bad ant shoot. I remember the very unhappy outcome deal when Greencore was privatised. of the sale of Irish Steel in Cork to a fabulously wealthy Indian. It was sold a few years later for Mr. Cullen: While shareholders may have suf- a nominal amount, the facility was closed and the fered, the taxpayers got a fantastic deal on owner walked away. Without referring to matters Eircom. which are the subject of tribunals, the sale for a song of the second mobile phone licence was a Acting Chairman: The Minister will have time disgrace given that it was worth approximately to reply. \400 million within two years. Where were the then Tańaiste’s departmental officials, prog- Mr. Browne: Taxpayers may be regarded as ramme advisors and others when that was done? consumers. The Minister might change his Contrary to Senator Browne’s comments, the tax- opinion if he tried to get a new telephone line or payer was not the loser in the Eircom privatis- to have a telephone pole removed. The bottom ation. One can argue that incipient shareholders line is that the service to taxpayers and consumers had their fingers burnt, but that was a separate has gone rapidly downhill since privatisation. issue. The general public interest did not suffer. I remind Senator Wilson that Fine Gael’s It is amazing that discussion of the simple econ- record is proud in this area. As Minister for omic law of supply and demand has been absent Transport in the mid-1980s, the late Deputy Jim from the debate on Aer Rianta. Taking air travel Mitchell allowed for the development of Ryanair, and airport charges together, the real cost of air which has revolutionised air travel. It is cheaper travel has plummeted in the last 20 years. It is to fly with Aer Lingus now than it was 20 years not, therefore, in the least bit surprising that ago. If the prices Aer Lingus was charging 20 demand has soared. It is this which has created years ago had increased as planned, one would the capacity problems we are grappling with cur- have to pay over \1,000 for a ticket which now \ rently which are compounded by concerns about costs 100. It is important to record the point. security. I accept that Dublin Airport, at which until recently most of us were very comfortable Dr. Mansergh: As I believe in being as politi- and of which, even, very proud, has become quite cally fair as possible, it is appropriate to pay trib- difficult to get through. I worry about the effect ute to former Deputy Jim Mitchell for allowing delays will have on regional connections within Ryanair to commence operations. I welcome the the country. If one must wait at the airport for Minister to the House and the decisions of two hours before one’s flight, one might as well Government, which are essentially correct. While travel by road to most domestic destinations. it is true the State could have invested in Aer There may be a case for establishing a separate, Lingus under the Brussels rules, we saw in 2001 that if there were a downturn, all sorts of obsta- fast-track regional service within the terminal cles would have been placed in the way of such a which people can get through without entering measure. It would have been represented as sub- the general melee. sidisation. State airlines in other parts of Europe While I will not get into the issue of competing went bankrupt as a result of such events. All terminals with which I have dealt before, a matter things considered, the Government’s approach is which has not been adverted to sufficiently is the correct. extraordinarily high car parking charges at I noted the Minister’s comment that the Dublin Airport, especially at short-term facilities. emphasis in Aer Lingus should now be on Access to the airport must be improved to cope growth, rather than just on survival, and the with the increased numbers of visitors envisaged. extension of connections to further flung parts of I look forward to Government announcements in the world such as Asia and South Africa. As the reasonably near future on the provision of Senator McDowell observed, it is an interesting some form of rail access. If visitor numbers are to reversal that the transatlantic flights which used increase to between 30 million and 40 million, I to be loss-making are now among the most profit- suspect more than one type of rail connection will able undertakings of the business. I accept that be needed, including a metro and fixed-track line. the 25% plus shareholding which the Govern- Some concern has been expressed about the ment will retain will provide it with substantial way in which debt will be managed, especially leverage in strategic decisions which relate the that of Shannon and Cork airports. While it is vital interests of the country. There are few important the airports get off to a good start, interests more vital than our air connections. Dublin Airport is not anxious to be saddled with 1299 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1300

[Dr. Mansergh.] for the future. As far as I am concerned it should the whole burden. Whether the Government has be able to get on with the job and should be a role in the matter must be considered. judged on the quality of what it succeeds in doing. I reject completely the politically reductionist After much huffing and puffing the Govern- and populist approach of Senator Ross which ment has decided to sell off Aer Lingus once reduces everything to seats and political interests. again. This will be the third time in recent years While he has not stated it explicitly, it is obvious that it has got to this preliminary stage of selling the Senator believes the Government should off the airline. This has been long discussed but attempt to ride roughshod over the trade unions the argument never appears to move forward. while ignoring social partnership which works Perhaps it will now. First, Aer Lingus had to be very well. The decisions stand on their own merits sold off because it was almost bankrupt. Then we irrespective of political considerations. were going to sell it off because it was making a I endorse everything my colleague, Senator great deal of money. Regardless of the circum- Dooley, stated about improving access to stances the answer has always been to sell off the Shannon Airport. Presumably, the 25% Govern- airline. The only reason it has not been sold ment share will help to maintain connections to before now is that the Government has lacked the airport. My only doubt is that if it is possible the courage to go through with the deal. to otherwise ensure connections to Shannon Air- When we debated the Goldman Sachs report port, the five-year transition period which is here at the end of last year, I surprised more than being sought may be too long. a few Members by suggesting that on the basis of My final appeal to the Minister is only tangen- that report — perhaps it was not expected tially related. While I am not in favour of the pri- because of my business background — selling off vatisation of the Great Southern hotels, it is clear Aer Lingus at that point was not such a good that they need another home. The Dublin Air- idea. Nothing that has happened in the past six port Authority has no interest in them and the months has caused me to change my mind on the parcel has, unfortunately, been passed through a matter. At the time Senator Mansergh was sur- number of different bodies. A more suitable prised that such an opinion came from a business home must be found for them. person. I have two problems with the sale, one is the price and the other is what we give away. The Mr. Quinn: I welcome the Minister and the avi- Goldman Sachs report made it clear that the only ation action plan, although I do not think the way we can sell Aer Lingus is at a discount price. term is appropriate. I see no connection between The Minister stated: the interesting matters of Dublin Airport and the I now want to deal with the concerns on key sale of Aer Lingus. strategic matters which have been expressed in It has not been that long since the House spoke the context of the State reducing its sharehold- about Dublin Airport and the approach we ing in Aer Lingus. These concerns relate to should take there. I noticed with some amuse- issues such as the loss of the Aer Lingus brand, ment as I listened to the Minister’s contribution loss of direct transatlantic services and the loss that one of the decisions in the action plan is the of slots at Heathrow. completion of pier D as an appetizer to the building of a completely new terminal. It is the same He further stated: pier D which could and should have been com- Retaining ownership of over 25% means, pleted long before now had not the interference under Irish company law, that the Government of the current and previous Governments cannot be forced to sell its shares and can also stopped the project in its tracks. If it had not been deny other shareholders the ability to pass for that interference, pier D would be built by special and extraordinary resolutions such as now. making changes to the memorandum and As for the new terminal itself, it is perhaps articles of association. reassuring to learn about the very detailed process that will be carried out before it will be built. That is the bit that scares me about the price. However, these are perfectly normal actions that Would any of us running our own pension fund would be taken completely for granted in any invest in a company where the 25% shareholder public building project. They are being trumpeted states it is putting into the memorandum and as if there is something unique about them. articles of association conditions that specify cer- Somebody should tell the Minister that it is not tain matters that would be protected regardless new to look before one leaps, to consider care- of whether it would make commercial sense? If fully what one builds before it is built and to that were the case, why would anyone buy such a ensure the money spent is well spent. This is stan- company at the high price we would hope to dard operating procedure — or it should be. It achieve? may have been necessary to fluff up these details Either we hold on to the airline or we sell it all in order to turn this into a full blown action plan. off. I am not a believer in holding on to 25% and The fact that the Minister has chosen to stress hoping that the majority shareholder would take elements that should be part of any building pro- an interest in it. That is a bad decision. We should ject suggests he is making a hard sell of this. I decide to hold on to Aer Lingus and sack the wish the new board at Dublin Airport all the best board if it does not do a good job. We have done 1301 Aviation Action Plan: 31 May 2005. Statements 1302 this in the past with State companies. The benefit when the aviation market experiences a down- to Aer Lingus of the slots in Heathrow is not turn, which it inevitably will, given that it is the unlike infrastructure such as roads or railways. most cyclical of all sectors in the marketplace. It The State should own this infrastructure. The must be able to deal with that and have access to Goldman Sachs report made clear that the only capital markets on an ongoing basis. It is not feas- way we can sell Aer Lingus is at a discount price. ible for the State to remain a 100% shareholder. We will have to sell the airline at a price that is I have no doubt that if one sold the company far below its true value. We would be better off in its entirety one would do better but that is not holding on to it and financing its fleet replace- to say that it is not legitimate to keep a stake in ments from our own resources. We can do that the company and see what the market price will although it is against my usual thinking in this realise. I am confident there will be a great deal area. of interest in Aer Lingus because if the private sector is to invest it will want to make a profit. It Mr. Cullen: We cannot do that. will want to invest in a company that is positioned for significant growth. Aer Lingus has the poten- Mr. Quinn: Maybe we cannot. However, if we tial for an incredible amount of growth. Planning appoint a board with which we do not interfere its growth on foot of the decision will allow it to whose job is to make a success of the airline, it go to the market, especially to purchase aircraft. should be sacked if it does not do a good job. Let The lead-in time is about 18 months to two years us not interfere with it. Let us not be half-hearted so it would need to be doing that immediately. and believe we can hold on to 25% of the airline I am surprised at some of the remarks made — with the unions holding on to another 14.9% about the Dublin Airport Authority. I again — and believe somebody will pay a good price apologise for not being present for all contri- for 60% of a company because he or she can do butions. There is a symmetry between the the right thing with it commercially. We are wish- development of the Dublin Airport Authority ing for the best of two worlds and we will fall and Aer Lingus. Aer Lingus is the biggest cus- between the two. tomer of the Dublin Airport Authority. It is in the interests of the Dublin Airport Authority to Mr. Daly: Will the Minister give an update on make sure that it develops the airport in a way the current state of play with the bilateral nego- that maximises the airline’s ability to grow within tiations between the United States and the Euro- the airport. If the Dublin Airport Authority took pean Union, especially in regard to Shannon, as the wrong decision, that would not be in the he is aware of people’s fears in that regard? interests of the airline. By doing it the wrong way the authority would not grow the airport and thus Minister for Transport (Mr. Cullen): I thank its own business because it would not increase Senators for their contributions to this debate. I passenger throughput. was present for most of it and I apologise to those Senator Quinn is correct in saying I am stating speakers whose contributions I missed. Unfortu- the obvious in regard to due diligence. The nately I had to be in the other House at the reason I have done so is that many commentators same time. referred to gold-plating this and that which I con- I am surprised at some of the analysis drawn sidered wrong. It is important that I would spell by Senator Quinn, as someone who has run a suc- out the caveats that exist and how we will ensure cessful company and knows the market well. that would not happen. I agree with Senator Many private sector companies have major stake- Quinn in principle. It is obvious, but sometimes holders but that does not appear to be an issue. it is necessary to state the obvious. Although I do not wish to draw an absolute anal- I do not have a great deal of time to go through ogy with what happened recently with Manches- what everybody said. We have made good ter United football club, it was most interesting decisions that for the first time will put the avi- that when it was being taken over everybody was ation sector in a position where it can grow rather deeply concerned about somebody holding on to than merely cope with a crisis situation. That is a a 25% stake to block the takeover of the com- fair assessment. pany and prevent it from going private. This is It is not for the Government to decide the part of the reason the State wants to have some location of the second terminal. It is not for any strategic interest in the airline. The one thing we political party to decide, although Fine Gael cannot do, which is what we have been doing with appears to state that if it were in Government it Aer Lingus, is expect it to compete with every- would decide. That is not the legal basis that body else with one and perhaps two hands tied exists. It is a matter for the Dublin Airport behind its back. Authority. I have been at pains to say to everybody that We should all draw a line in the sand. It is very the issue is not about giving Aer Lingus a sum of wrong to be making references to the board of money next week or next month. If it were that the authority. It is a new board. Its members are simple we would all be fine. Aer Lingus must well-known and respected by all in the business have ongoing access to the capital markets to community. They are regarded as people who make strategic decisions, as would any company. have proven themselves to be highly successful. In particular, it must be in a position to do so What happened under Aer Rianta, be it wrong or 1303 Safety, Health and Welfare at Work 31 May 2005. Bill 2004: Report and Final Stages 1304

[Mr. Cullen.] (c) the uncontrolled or accidental release, right, is history and I will not comment on it. the escape or the ignition of any substance, What is important is that there is an entirely new (d) a fire involving any substance, or board in place with an entirely new mandate, a clear Government policy and a clear direction. I (e) any unintentional ignition or explosion trust the board has the ability to deliver and I of explosives,”. wish it well. I understand the Government may well accept Of course Shannon Airport is extremely this amendment. It is simply seeks to amplify the important strategically. We have had good dis- terms used in page 11 of the Bill. The terms, as cussions with the Americans. There are also they stand, just refer to materials but the amend- issues to be addressed at EU level. I am hopeful ment proposes to extend them to include the col- there will be a very good outcome which will be lapse of a building, a fire involving any substance good for the development of the aviation business at all or any unintentional ignition or explosion in general in Ireland. No airline, be it Irish or of explosives. It is well-grounded because the international, has suggested to me that it does not existing definition is too narrow. The amendment believe there is a great future for Shannon Air- is particularly pertinent for me because I remem- port in terms of both European and transatlantic ber raising the issue of safety in recent years in destinations. respect of an incident in which people were killed in the collapse of a building as a result of an Acting Chairman: That concludes statements. explosion to demolish that building. One of the general duties of an employer is to Mr. McDowell: I appreciate that. However, I report accidents and dangerous occurrences to posed a number of questions during my contri- the Health and Safety Authority. Paragraph (a) bution, which the Minister has not had time to of the definition of “dangerous occurrence” address. relates only to work equipment as far as the pro- posers of the amendment, among whom I now An Cathaoirleach: Statements have concluded. include myself, are concerned. Unless the definition is tightened, it seems it will not protect Mr. McDowell: I appreciate that. I am merely workers in the event of the collapse of a building making the point that I posed some questions that or the explosion of gases, although I am sure this were not answered—— was not the intention of the those who framed it. The amendment seeks to extend the provision so An Cathaoirleach: We will proceed to No. 2. workers will be covered in such circumstances. The collapse of scaffolding would already be Mr. McDowell: ——because of a lack of time. covered. I raised this issue after scaffolding col- lapsed in the Baggot Street area, resulting in the Ms O’Rourke: The Minister can reply to the death of at least one worker. Such matters are Senator in a letter. severe but there is a greater likelihood of injury or death when an entire building collapses. Mr. McDowell: If he could do that, I would Therefore, I urge the Minister to accept the appreciate it. amendment.

An Cathaoirleach: The statements have con- An Cathaoirleach: For the Senator’s infor- cluded. We are proceeding to No. 2. mation, the Government has tabled a similar amendment. Mr. Norris: The Senator is entitled to ask a question. Mr. Norris: I see. However, we will still get the credit for it. This morning a distinguished Senator Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill 2004: on the Government side congratulated the Report and Final Stages. Labour Party on its wonderful, imaginative initiative—— An Cathaoirleach: Before we commence, I remind Senators that a Senator may speak only An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant. once on Report Stage amendments, except the proposer of an amendment, who may reply to the Mr. Norris: ——concerning child care. Of discussion on the amendment. On Report Stage, course the Government got the idea from us in each amendment must be seconded. this case. It is a copycat.

Mr. Norris: I move amendment No. 1: An Cathaoirleach: We are considering the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Bill 2004. In page 11, to delete lines 9 to 12, and substitute the following: Mr. Norris: We are but I am merely drawing “(b) the collapse or partial collapse of any attention to the principle that if a Senator can, on building or structure under construction or the Order of Business, draw attention to Labour in use as a place of work, copying the Government, I can draw attention to 1305 Safety, Health and Welfare at Work 31 May 2005. Bill 2004: Report and Final Stages 1306 the Government copying the Independents. We insertion of the words “by rules made”. All these are grateful that the Government saw sense—— amendments have the same effect.

An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant. Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Norris: It is very relevant. Government amendment No. 3:

An Cathaoirleach: No, it is not relevant. In page 13, line 3, before “by” to insert “by regulations made”. Mr. Norris: The Government is to accept the Independent Members’ amendment. Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Quinn: I assume I am allowed to second Government amendment No. 4: the Independent Members’ amendment and share in the glory when it is accepted. In page 13, line 5, after “72(3)” to insert “by rules made”. An Cathaoirleach: Yes. Amendment agreed to. Mr. Quinn: I second the amendment. An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 Minister of State at the Department of are related and may be discussed together by Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. agreement. Killeen): Senator O’Toole tabled this amendment on Committee Stage and we had a discussion Government amendment No. 5: thereon. I accepted it was clear that the definition was deficient. However, in the course of dis- In page 14, line 11, to delete “for gain”. cussing the amendment, it became apparent that there was a danger that the words “the uncon- Mr. Killeen: In reviewing the Bill, it has come trolled or accidental release, the escape or the to light that there is a possible inconsistency ignition of any substance” might be deleted by between the use of the word “undertaking” in the inclusion of the previous amendment. We can section 2(5), which uses the phrase “whether car- agree on all fronts that amendment No. 1, in the ried on by him or her for profit or not”, and the names of Senators O’Toole and Henry, moved definition of “undertaking” in section 2(1). For today by Senator Norris and seconded by Senator this reason it is important that amendments Nos. Quinn, strengthens the Bill considerably. I thank 5 and 6 be accepted. I am concerned that the Bill them for having brought the issue to our attention will cover all types of workplaces and the amend- and I accept the amendment. ments will ensure this.

Amendment agreed to. Amendment agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach: Amendment No. 3 is cog- Government amendment No. 6: nate to amendment No. 2 and amendment No. 4 is related, therefore, amendments Nos. 2 to 4, In page 14, line 12, after “service” to insert inclusive, may be discussed together by “(whether carried on by him or her for profit agreement. or not)”.

Government amendment No. 2: Amendment agreed to. In page 13, line 2, to delete “by regulations made”. An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Mr. Killeen: Amendments Nos. 2 to 4, inclusive, are technical. Under some sections, such as Government amendment No. 7: section 66(7), pertaining to an appeal against an improvement notice, and section 67(7), pertaining In page 29, to delete lines 19 to 26 and substi- to an appeal against a prohibition notice, it will tute the following: be necessary to prescribe the procedures and “(3) The risk assessment shall be reviewed forms of order for cases in the District Court. by the employer where—— These are matters that will be prescribed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. (a) there has been a significant change in These procedural matters should be prescribed the matters to which it relates, or by way of rules of court and not by regulations (b) there is another reason to believe that and this is the reason for these technical it is no longer valid, amendments. Amendment Nos. 2 and 3 refer to “by regu- and, following the review, the employer shall lations made” and amendment No. 4 seeks the amend the risk assessment as appropriate.” 1307 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1308

Mr. Killeen: This amendment was discussed on could be some shortfalls or anomalies within Committee Stage in reference to an amendment legislation. That is something, in the event, that tabled by Senator Coghlan and proposed by we must be prepared to return to and sort out Senator Cummins. I indicated on Committee immediately. Stage that I believed there might be a need for a very minor amendment to their proposal. It Mr. Coghlan: I thank the Minister of State and involved the inclusion of the word “another”. his officials for this very necessary measure. I Amendment No. 7 basically accepts and clarifies thank the Minister of State for accepting some of Senator Coghlan’s proposal. the amendments we believe to be worthy, which were tabled on Committee Stage. I also thank the Mr. Coghlan: It is naturally agreed in that case. Minister of State and the officials for the improvements wrought on one of those amend- Amendment agreed to. ments. It was a pleasure doing business with the Minister of State and well done to all concerned. Government amendment No. 8: In page 30, to delete lines 36 to 46 and in Question put and agreed to. page 31 to delete lines 1 and 2, and substitute Sitting suspended at 5.45 p.m. and resumed at the following: 6 p.m. “(5) Every employer shall, taking into account the risk assessment carried out under Business of Seanad. section 19, review the safety statement where- Mr. Moylan: The Minister of State is delayed (a) there has been a significant change in due to a vote in the Da´il. I propose that we sus- the matters to which it refers, pend until 6.15 p.m. (b) there is another reason to believe that the safety statement is no longer valid, or An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed.

(c) an inspector in the course of an inspec- Sitting suspended at 6.05 p.m. and resumed at tion, investigation, examination, inquiry 6.15 p.m. under section 64 or otherwise directs that the safety statement be amended within 30 days of the giving of that direction, Disability Bill 2004: Second Stage. and, following the review, the employer shall Question proposed: “That the Bill be now read amend the safety statement as appropriate.”. a Second Time.” Amendment agreed to. Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. Fahey): Iam Bill, as amended, received for final con- pleased as Minister of State with responsibility sideration. for equality to bring before the Seanad this important legislation. This Bill, once enacted, will Question proposed: “That the Bill do now significantly advance the position of people with pass.” disabilities and will be instrumental in sustaining progress in the longer term. The Bill is one Minister of State at the Department of element of the national disability strategy, Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Mr. launched by the Taoiseach on 21 September 2004. Killeen): I take this opportunity to thank the The strategy has three other elements, namely, Cathaoirleach and Members of the Seanad for the Comhairle (Amendment) Bill 2004, six out- their co-operation during the passage of the Bill line sectoral plans and a multi-annual investment through this House, and in particular for drawing programme for high priority disability support our attention to the deficiencies addressed by the services. amendments which have been accepted. I also The strategy represents a commitment by want to thank the officials of the Department for Government to drive forward a significant evol- their help in the course of the Bill, as well as ution in policy and provision for people with dis- everybody who contributed. abilities, which has gathered momentum in recent years. Among the established building blocks are Mr. Moylan: I thank the Minister of State and the strong anti-discrimination framework of his officials as regards this very important piece employment equality and equal status legislation, of legislation. It is crucial because the health, the policy of mainstreaming services for people safety and welfare of people at work are so with disabilities and the significant increase in important. Legislation has been introduced and investment in disability services in recent years. much work has been done by the Minister and This framework is supported by infrastructure his officials over the years in taking on board so comprising the Equality Authority, the Equality many new health and safety regulations in the Tribunal, the National Disability Authority and workplace. It is a Bill that may well have to be Comhairle which together have had a positive revisited at a later stage as we find out that there influence on equality, service development and 1309 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1310 delivery, and on practices and attitudes generally. National Disability Authority brought together a These milestones set the context for the national group representative of people with disabilities, disability strategy and the Bill. their families and carers and service providers in An important aspect of equal access is edu- the sector. The Disability Legislation Consul- cation and the support of children with dis- tation Group — the DLCG — provided meaning- abilities to fulfil their potential through edu- ful dialogue at national level, within the sector cation. The Education for Persons with Special and with Government. Educational Needs Act 2004 is another important Senior officials and Ministers have had regular development which has put in place a strong contact with the DLCG over the past two and a framework for the transformation of special half years. These meetings, together with the needs education policy. Since last July, the Act DLCG document Equal Citizens, have allowed creates rights to an educational assessment for the committee and the senior officials working children with special educational needs, to the with it to obtain a detailed understanding of the development of an individual education plan and issues of concern to the DLCG in regard to the to the delivery of educational services on foot of legislation. that plan. The Bill was drafted to take account of pro- Side by side with equality and mainstream posals in Equal Citizens such as a right to an inde- policy development, there has been a significant pendent assessment of need, transparency as to increase in spending on disability specific related services, a right of redress, mainstream services. This year, some \2.9 billion, rep- service provision and the 3% target for the resenting almost 7.5% of gross current public employment of people with disabilities. Senior expenditure on services, will be spent in this way. officials presented an outline of the Bill to the This figure does not take account of income sup- DLCG in early 2004. The shape of the Bill, as port and other services provided through the initiated, and the national disability strategy Department of Social and Family Affairs. It does reflect several important elements sought by the not take account of the fact that many people DLCG and agreed by the Cabinet committee. with a disability participate in, or benefit from, The Bill contains no clause to protect the State mainstream public service programmes and against litigation for the breach of statutory duty, services. The figure of \2.9 billion compares with which was the case with the much-discussed expenditure of just under \0.8 billion in 1997 — section 47 in the Disability Bill 2001 and was a 3.5 fold increase in eight years. unacceptable to disability groups. The absence of Building on this successful experience, the any such provision represents a fundamental shift Government has guaranteed a multi-annual in Government policy designed to accommodate investment programme totalling over \900 mil- widely held concerns. lion, comprising capital and current funding for Another major concern of the DLCG has been high priority disability support services, over the that the Bill would be supported by a multi- years 2006-09. The funding focuses mainly on the annual funding package for disability services. health and education sectors and will enhance The Government has guaranteed an unpre- service levels where they are most needed. The cedented multi-annual investment programme multi-annual approach is an unprecedented providing significant additional funding up to and initiative where spending on services is con- including 2009, on top of funding to be provided cerned. Generally, funding to run all Government through the annual Estimates process, which services is allocated on a year-to-year basis, tak- shows the special concern of Government for dis- ing into account existing commitments and ability issues and is evidence of the Government’s expected revenue. strong, positive response to this DLCG proposal. The Bill is unique in the legislation that comes The Bill as initiated, also reflects a DLCG pro- before this House. It seeks to provide for services posal that a sixth sectoral plan dealing with train- that come within the ambit of a wide variety of ing and employment issues be prepared. It also Departments and State agencies. Knowing the ensures that liaison officers will undertake a per- cross-departmental nature of the work envisaged, iodic review of each individual’s service state- the Government decided at an early stage to refer ment to ensure that its contents are being satisfac- the process of overseeing the preparation of the torily implemented. Since the Bill was published Bill and the national disability strategy to the I have met the DLCG to discuss its views and the Cabinet committee on social inclusion. ten key areas of concern they have identified. The committee, which comprised 11 Ministers Arising from those meetings and consultations as well as concerned Ministers of State met regu- with the relevant Departments and the Cabinet larly for this purpose and its work has been sup- committee, I accommodated changes to the Bill ported by a cross-departmental group of senior to address the group’s concerns to the greatest officials. In the course of its deliberations, the extent possible. These changes were effected by committee oversaw development of the scope way of Government amendments to the Bill dur- and framework for the Bill and took decisions on ing its passage through the Da´il. They provide for the way forward on key policy issues. the following: expanding the definition of sub- The published Bill was the subject of extensive stantial restriction to ensure certainty in the consultations with interest groups. Following a inclusion of persons with mental health impair- request from my Department in April 2002, the ments and children needing early intervention 1311 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1312

[Mr. Fahey.] information and that delivery on these provisions services to ameliorate a disability; building in a will in itself represent significant progress. requirement that the operation of the Bill be Some members of the DLCG left the group reviewed within five years; simplifying the com- because the Government could not agree to plaints mechanism by removing an option of the change the Bill to accommodate the five points Health Service Executive or education service outlined above. The Taoiseach met with the provider to refuse to implement a recommend- remaining members of the DLCG on 25 May ation of a complaints officer; broadening the sec- 2005 and, while restating the Government’s posi- toral plan of the Department of the Environment, tion on the five points, he agreed to consider a Heritage and Local Government to include hous- number of further issues of concern to the ing and accommodation and for co-operation DLCG, including the following: the need to pro- between the relevant authorities on such matters; vide for a face to face interview to review each providing an additional ground for complaint applicant’s service statement; additional powers where the HSE fails to commence or complete an for the complaints officer, which would allow him assessment within the time scales required; or her to recommend the timing of the service or requiring public bodies to make published docu- assessment; to review concerns about the wording ments available in easy to read formats, as appro- of section 5(4); the publication of the report on priate, for persons with intellectual disabilities; aggregate needs prepared by the Health Service and allowing Ministers to make orders requiring Executive under section 13; the preparation of public bodies to provide work experience con- progress reports by the six sectoral plan Depart- tracts for persons with disabilities. ments at least every three years; The DLCG welcomed the changes made to the Bill in the Da´il but later outlined five key issues Ms O’Rourke: It was five in the original—— upon which it sought further consideration. I met with the DLCG to hear its concerns and to out- Mr. Fahey: This is a separate issue. It involves line the position on its proposals. The Taoiseach the review of the sectoral plans. subsequently wrote to them setting out the Government’s policy on each of the five points. An Cathaoirleach: The Minister of State with- The DLCG sought a right to an assessment that out interruption please. would not be resource dependent. The Bill provides a right to an independent assessment to a Mr. Fahey: ——changing Cabinet procedures benchmark standard with access to redress. The so that legislation and policy proposals submitted assessment will be undertaken without regard to to Government would take account of the impact the cost of or the capacity to provide any service on people with disabilities; and the issue of audio- description which was raised in regard to the identified in the assessment. The assessment pro- broadcasting provisions in the Bill. I hope to be cess, however, will ultimately be resource depen- in a position to bring forward a number of dent. In practice, the Government is confident Government amendments to address as many of that resources will not normally restrict the these proposals, as is possible, following detailed assessment process in view of the multi-annual examination. investment programme. The DLCG sought that A main issue for some disability groups has the Bill would require the provision of all been the question of justiciable social rights. assessed service needs within a reasonable and There are divergent views about access to the agreed timeframe and that there would be clear courts as the primary means of vindicating these protection for disability-specific resources. The rights. One view is that ultimate redress in the Bill will impose significant new requirements on courts is fundamental to the concept of social Ministers and the Health Service Executive in rights delivery. On the other hand, social service regard to transparency of funding and service provision for any one group must be balanced provision. It also places a statutory obligation on with the valid and competing needs of other the Health Service Executive to collect aggregate service users. The statute-based rights and redress data on assessed needs and on available services mechanisms in the Bill find their basis in this for service planning purposes. reality. The Bill provides a right to an indepen- The DLCG wants every Department to pre- dent assessment of need, a right to a service state- pare a sectoral plan. The Bill provides for six sec- ment — the content of which will have regard to toral plans dealing with those services which resource availability, eligibility and other factors involve medium-term investment either to — and a right of redress and enforcement. The develop disability-specific supports or to under- Bill provides an easily accessible statute-based pin infrastructural change. Other public bodies means of redress in regard to assessment and are already obliged under the Bill to make their services. services accessible by next year. I have listened, time and time again, to calls for The DLCG also sought that disability proofing the Bill to be rights-based — in other words that be placed on a statutory footing. The Govern- it should give justiciable rights to services. There ment is satisfied that the Bill already creates sig- appears to be a belief this will guarantee services nificant new requirements for public bodies in to meet needs or that case law will drive service terms of accessibility of buildings, services and delivery. The simple fact is that it will not, at least 1313 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1314 not in the interests of people with disabilities gen- report entitled On Rights-Based Services for erally. Already in the education area, for every People with Disabilities was commissioned by my \1 given in settlement of legal cases paid out by Department in 2003 to stimulate debate and the Department of Education and Science, \4 gather factual information about the nature of went to pay the fees of members of the legal pro- disability legislation in other common law coun- fession. Aside from the legal costs, a court case tries. The research shows that the commonalities can cause delay and hardship for a person with in legislation internationally tend to be confined disability and his or her family. The Bill, on the to anti-discrimination legislation. There is little other hand, establishes a fair, person-centred consistency as to the kind of legislation, if any, system for complaint and appeal that will give underpinning disability service provision. The real results relatively quickly and informally. research dispels many assumptions and shows A rights-based approach to service provision wide variation in the way disability-specific on the lines sought by interest groups, and indeed service provision is treated in the countries sur- the Opposition in the Da´il, is not evident in other veyed — Great Britain, New Zealand, Australia, developed common law countries. If we look at the US, Canada and Sweden. The Bill compares the work of respected independent authorities well with legislation for disability service pro- such as NESC, we see a recognition of the com- vision elsewhere and in common with that legis- plexity of the issue, the need to understand the lation establishes a link between service provision relationship between rights and standards and the and resource availability. fact that a focus on legal rights cannot always The Disability Bill is a positive action measure deliver in the simple way that is claimed. In its comprising a number of distinct initiatives, which, recently published report, NESC reiterates the taken together, will lead over time to a sustained complexities involved. In looking at socio-econ- improvement in the lives of people with dis- omic rights, NESC refers to well functioning abilities. The initiatives in Part 2 deal with the systems being able to deliver rights and states individual health and education needs of each that, “stronger institutional and policy capabili- person with a disability. The initiatives in Parts 3 ties, which are in part the fruit of an increase in and 5 place statutory obligations on public bodies resources, ...enrich the content and meaning of to support access for people with disabilities to rights”. The Government has taken the practical mainstream public services and to public service approach by increasing investment to build capa- employment. Parts 4, 6 and 7 deal with genetic city, so the rights to assessment and services con- testing, the establishment of a centre for excel- tained in the Bill, and the quasi-judicial redress lence in universal design and miscellaneous process that underpins them, can be delivered in matters. practice. I will outline the main provisions of the Bill. The national disability strategy including the Provisions of particular importance include the Bill and the multi-annual investment programme definition of disability and section 5. The defini- provide a strong basis for this planned approach tion of “disability” in section 2 is in line with the which can respond to real needs. It enables the definition in the National Disability Authority Government to fulfil its political duty to use avail- Act 1999. Section 5 is a novel provision which able resources to the benefit of people with dis- makes specific arrangements for Ministers to ear- abilities and balance the funding needs of other mark funding for the purpose of implementing services and the rights and expectations of those the provisions of the legislation. There is also pro- who depend on them. Such decisions are proper vision for a review of the operation of the Bill no to the political arena and are not matters primar- later than five years after commencement. ily for case law. Part 2 establishes a right to an independent I am the first to admit there is a historical defi- assessment of need, an individual service state- cit in regard to disability and there are limitations ment and redress. Section 7 defines the key terms in current services. I have listened to criticisms used in this part. The definition of “disability” for of the Bill because service provision is subject to the purposes of this part covers persons whose resource availability. In the real world, all disability is likely to be permanent, results in sig- services are subject to resource availability — nificant difficulty communicating, learning, mov- that is the harsh reality and it is not unique to ing or significantly disordered thought processes Ireland. However, that does not mean we ignore and gives rise to a need for services on a continual the historic deficits or shortfalls in disability basis. A “health service” is defined to include a services. What it means is that we must be practi- “personal social service” and “education service” cal in facing up to our responsibilities and we are relates to the education of persons over 18 in a doing that. We are putting in place a firm finan- recognised school, or a programme of education, cial programme and a national disability strategy training or instruction specified by the Minister to establish a sound base for service provision. for Education and Science. The section assigns Under the Bill, Ministers, for the first time, will additional functions to the National Council for make an explicit determination of the amount of Special Education relating to the education of funding they will allocate each year for the pur- persons over 18 years. It also gives HSE officials poses of the Bill. access to the education appeals board where the In drawing up the legislation, regard has been council fails to comply with a request for co-oper- had to benchmarks internationally. The ESRI ation in preparing a service statement. 1315 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1316

[Mr. Fahey.] the HSE or head of the education service pro- Sections 8 to 10, inclusive, deal with the assess- vider where appropriate. ment of need. Assessment officers will be Sections 16 to 20, inclusive, and the Schedule appointed by the executive and will be indepen- to the Bill deal with the appeals officer and dent in the performance of their functions. The appeals. The appeals officer will occupy an inde- assessment will cover health and education pendent statutory office and will be appointed by services. A person who considers that he or she the Minister for Health and Children. The officer may have a disability, may apply to a health will hear appeals and will have staff to whom board for an assessment of need and the assess- functions can be delegated and a budget to ment will be commenced within three months of undertake the work. The officer will make an the date of the application. Each assessment of annual report to the Minister for Health and Chil- need will involve the applicant in the process and dren in respect of his or her functions. A copy of result in an assessment report which will specify the report will be laid before both Houses of the an indicative date for review. Services will be Oireachtas. Under sections 18 and 23, the appeals prioritised in the assessment report and optimal officer is given substantial powers to call wit- timescales for delivery will be set out. Each nesses, obtain documents, enter premises and assessment of need will be independent in three ultimately to secure a search warrant from the respects. First, assessment officers will be statu- District Court, if necessary. torily independent, second, the assessment itself A recommendation of a complaints officer can will be undertaken without regard to existing be appealed to the appeals officer by the appli- service levels or related cost considerations and cant, the HSE or head of an education service third, the assessment will take place in accord- provider. He or she will be required to take ance with standards determined by a new inde- account of the same considerations as the com- pendent body, the Health Information and Qual- plaints officer in coming to a decision, such as ity Authority, HIQA. resources, eligibility and practicability consider- Section 11 deals with the individual service ations. Section 20 provides that a determination statements. Liaison officers will be appointed in of the appeals officer will be final and not refer- the HSE as a key point of contact for the prep- able to the courts save on a point of law. aration of service statements. Following assess- Section 18 provides that the appeals officer ment, a liaison officer will prepare a service state- may arrange for mediation, unless either party to ment for the person concerned. In preparing the the appeal objects, if he or she considers that the issue could be resolved in this way. Unresolved service statement, the legislation requires the cases may be considered again in the appeals pro- officer to have regard to the HSE’s budget for cess. A mediation settlement may be enforced in that year and other criteria, including the eligi- the same way as a determination of the appeals bility of the person for the service and the practi- officer. As a last resort, where a determination of cability of providing the service. Otherwise, the the appeals officer is not implemented, section 22 service statement will seek to reflect the priorities allows for an application to the Circuit Court for and timescales for the health and education an enforcement notice against the HSE or edu- services identified in the assessment report. cation service provider which has failed to In an effort to aid service co-ordination, section implement it. Certain recommendations of the 12 specifies that liaison officers, with the consent complaints officer may also be enforced in this of the person concerned, will contact service pro- way. viders outside the health and education sectors Section 25 imposes a duty on public bodies to and give them any information needed to assist commence a rolling programme of refurbishment access to services, other than those provided for to make public buildings accessible. Sections 26 in the assessment of need. Section 13 requires the to 29, inclusive, are key sections which require HSE to keep records as an aid to service plan- public bodies to mainstream service provision for ning. The HSE must compile a report each year people with disabilities. Section 30 deals with for the Minister for Health and Children of the codes of practice to be prepared by the NDA. services being provided and the aggregate needs Sections 31 to 37, inclusive, require the develop- identified in assessments, including the priority of ment of six sectoral plans by the Ministers for these needs, the optimal time scales for delivery Health and Children, Social and Family Affairs, and the estimated cost of such provision. Transport, the Environment, Heritage and Local Part 2 provides for three stages of redress, com- Government, Communications, Marine and plaint, appeal and enforcement. Section 14 allows Natural Resources and Enterprise, Trade and for the making of a complaint relating to an Employment. A duty is placed on the Minister assessment or service. Section 15 requires the responsible for each of the sectors to prepare, in HSE to appoint complaints officers who will be accordance with a general framework, a plan set- statutorily independent in the performance of ting out the disability related services and positive their functions. Following examination of a com- action measures he or she is committed to plaint, the complaints officer may seek to resolve implementing. it informally. If this is not possible, he or she will Draft sectoral plans have already been pub- investigate the complaint, issue findings and lished and are at present the subject of a consul- make a recommendation for implementation by tation process being facilitated by the NDA at 1317 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1318 regional information meetings. The final plans The Schedule sets out the terms and conditions will be submitted to the Oireachtas for approval of employment of the appeals officer to be within one year of commencement of the legis- appointed by the Minister for Health and Chil- lation. Under section 38, individuals can make dren under Part 2. It deals with such matters as complaints about a failure by a public body to selection by open competitive process, term of comply with a duty in respect of mainstream appointment, staff to be civil servants, accounting service provision under Part 3. matters and delegation of functions. Section 39 requires every public body to desig- I thank the Senators present for their attention. nate inquiry officers to investigate any such com- The debate in the Da´il was very informed with plaints. Sectoral plans will also specify the com- many good points made by the Opposition. On plaints procedures that apply in each of the six Committee Stage we incorporated many of those plans. The decision of the inquiry officer or the points. One common theme clearly running complaints officer under a sectoral plan can be through much of the Opposition contribution was referred to the Ombudsman. Section 40 amends the need for judicable rights. In the five years the Ombudsman Act 1980 to give the Ombuds- since this process commenced the Government man specific powers for this purpose. has been clear and adamant that it is not possible Part 4 seeks to safeguard access to employ- to have legislation giving judicable rights in the ment, insurance and mortgages for people who courts. As I have already said judicable rights are may be affected by certain genetic conditions, not available in any country with the one possible such as cystic fibrosis and Huntington’s disease. exception of South Africa. This will not change during the debate in the Seanad. The part restricts the use of genetic data in gen- I appeal to Senators to recognise that we have eral, especially for employment purposes and out- gone past the debate on judicable rights. I am laws its use for insurance purposes. The use of anxious to listen carefully to the points made here family history information for insurance purposes and to make amendments where possible as a may be restricted by regulation. The provisions result of proposals made. I would like to conduct of this part will be subject to review commencing the debate in the Seanad in that spirit. As a not later than 1 January 2014. former Member of this House, I recognise the Part 5 establishes a statutory basis for positive important role the Seanad has to play and the action measures to support the employment of important contribution Members of this House people with disabilities in the public service. It have made in improving legislation. I again allows each Minister to specify targets for the emphasise that I am anxious to conduce the employment of people with disabilities in their debate in that spirit. I commend the Bill to the sector, pending the specification of which, the House. existing 3% employment target will apply. Imple- mentation of the measures will be monitored by Ms Terry: I welcome the Minister of State to sectoral monitoring committees and the National the House. I also welcome the opportunity to at Disability Authority will report to each Minister last deal with this Bill, for which we have waited about compliance in their sector. a long time. While I recognise that some improve- Part 6 provides for the establishment of a new ments have been made in the Da´il for which I centre for excellence in universal design within thank the Minister of State, the Bill still falls short the NDA. The establishment of the centre is a of what the majority if not all of the disability commitment in the programme for government groups have called for. This is the basis from and responds to international obligations on uni- which I must start. versal design and e-accessibility. Section 52 I attended nearly all of the meetings of the amends the National Disability Authority Act Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, 1999 to take account of its new role. Universal Defence and Women’s Rights when the various design relates to the design and composition of disability groups attended to give their presen- buildings, products and systems so that they can tations and views on the Bill. One after another be accessed by everyone, to the greatest extent they expressed their dissatisfaction with it. While practicable, irrespective of any particular physical I accept some small improvements have been or mental feature, ability or disability. The pur- made, one must note, as the Minister of State pose of the centre will be to achieve excellence mentioned, some of those groups have withdrawn in universal design through the development and from the DLCG. I wish to read a statement made promulgation of standards. The centre will have by NAMHI as follows: a particular role in pursuing this objective regard- Two leading national representative organis- ing electronic systems and in the promotion of ations of people with disabilities have with- universal design in courses of training for archi- drawn their co-operation with government on tects, engineers and other persons who design the Disability Bill 2004. We have no choice but and build the built environment. Part 7 deals with to pursue the fight for a Bill which respects the a range of issues including rules for broadcasting rights of people with disabilities, as promised to facilitate access by people with sensory impair- in the programme for government, indepen- ments, offences, changes to the size of the NDA dently of the Disability Legislation Consul- board and related matters, repeals and tation Group (DLCG). The Forum for People exclusions. With Disabilities, the National Parents and Sib- 1319 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1320

[Ms Terry.] looked after, those with disabilities may or may lings Alliance and the National Association for not get something left over. People with an Intellectual Disability One question that comes to mind when dis- (NAMHI) have ended co-operation with the cussing the assessments is whether the Minister Bill. has worked out how many assessment officers will be needed. Will their number Those groups, for which I have great respect, did 7 o’clock also be constrained by resources? Do not do so lightly. We must recognise that groups we have the necessary trained assess- representing many people are still very dissatis- ment officers in the country? How long will it fied with the Bill. These groups are dissatisfied as take to put them in place? Those are important they are fighting for people who have been mar- questions to which I would like some answers. ginalised for years by many governments. I do not The Minister mentioned the appeals officers place all the blame on this Government. being independent. How can they be so if they However, Fianna Faíl has been in Government are governed by or answerable to the Minister for for many more years than any other party and I Health and Children? They are employed by the must lay more blame with it for not having pro- Health Service Executive and are not indepen- vided us with stronger legislation. dent. They should be under the auspices of the The Bill as presented is flawed. It is very com- Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform plex and complicated without joined-up thinking. to be totally independent. They cannot be Too many Departments and Ministers are employed by the Health Service Executive and involved, which makes for bad legislation. It is report to it. convoluted and poorly written, not from a legislative but a plain English viewpoint. It should Mr. Fahey: They are statutorily independent, as contain English that the ordinary person on the in the case of the Inspector of Mental Hospitals. street can understand. The Bill is definitely resource-driven while Ms Terry: I will be tabling an amendment to those affected by its provisions start from a very make them more independent by placing them low base. In seeking rights and services for able- under the authority of the Department of Justice, bodied people, we start from a position of being Equality and Law Reform. able to access buildings, perhaps being able to The Bill has many layers of bureaucracy. I read and write and being independent. In this would like to know how much it will cost to set debate we are discussing people who are not at up all the layers of personnel required. Will more that stage. Our obligation is to ensure that they money be spent on setting up the administration are brought up to be on a level playing field in so and employing the staff for it? If we are to do it far as they are capable of doing so. properly, it must be in place, but I want to ensure I will refer to some of my concerns, which I we have the available resources. will address on Committee Stage. I am looking The services statement will only be effective if forward to a good debate at that stage and I hope there are resources to implement it. Multi-annual the Minister of State will be in a position to adopt funding means nothing if it is not sufficient to some of the amendments I will table. Many of meet the demand. In this Bill, no deadline is set these issues have been thrashed out in the Daíl down by which services statement needs must be and I am hoping that with further time for reflec- met. I am concerned about what will happen tion we will be able to gain some success here. regarding those needs that are not met because The definition of the term “disability” is of resource constraints. A timeframe should be restrictive relative to that used in the Equal set out for the delivery of the outstanding needs. Status Act and the Education for Persons with This is an essential matter. If a service statement Special Educational Needs Act. It excludes outlines that certain needs are to be met but the people with episodic needs and those who require resources are not there, we must ensure a time- early intervention measures, resulting in more frame is provided for their ultimate delivery. people being excluded than included. This should The term “ring-fencing” has been used a great be inclusive legislation. It must not set out legis- deal when discussing the Disability Bill 2004. This lation that from the outset will exclude certain Bill makes no commitment to ring-fencing dis- people. I suggest that the right to an assessment ability-specific resources. If times get tough, is open to interpretation. The Bill states that people with disabilities will once again be mar- assessment must be carried out as if there were ginalised. I will probably be reminded by no resource constraints. However, the assessment Members on the Government side that the Mini- process is itself resource-constrained, and meet- ster has said that \2.9 billion has been provided ing any need for services arising from the assess- for disability-specific services this year. However, ment depends on the availability of resources. that is from a budget of \38 billion for public Assessment officers are appointed by the Health services. We are not talking about a great deal of Service Executive, which, as we know, cannot go money as a proportion of the overall budget. It is over budget and must take account of available a matter of enabling people to be independent resources. Therefore, once again, when we hit and make a contribution to society, something bad times, the marginalised will be those hit. That that will ultimately pay back into the economy is not acceptable. When everyone else has been and society. We are also talking about people 1321 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1322 who may never be able to get out into the work- I will be tabling an amendment so that we can place but who should be entitled to reach their ensure that disability-proofing is provided for in potential with the necessary supports and each Department. If we are serious about this services. They should be able to live with dignity. legislation, that is how we must proceed. Legis- Disability-proofing and promoting the equality lation must include everyone in society, and we of policy and planning must be provided for by all must not set out to exclude any individual or Departments, public bodies and publicly funded group. Ensuring the delivery of services to people bodies. It must be demonstrated in all aspects of with disabilities would be a valuable vindication their work, including planning, budgeting, imple- of people’s human rights, and disability-proofing mentation and evaluation cycles. They should be would ensure that. Regarding the appointment of accountable for the delivery of the services, some- a disability commissioner, I believe it necessary thing that is absent from the legislation. I under- that we provide for one in the legislation. To stand that the Taoiseach agreed at a recent meet- enhance the status of people with disability and ing with the DLCG that he would examine assist in protecting their rights to equality in disability-proofing. I therefore hope the Minister public services, the position of disability commissioner should be created. This position should will be able to take that on board when I table an have the same status as An Coimisineír Teanga amendment on Committee Stage so that we can and such an officer would give the Oireachtas and ensure such proofing and the promotion of the disability sector a strong basis to have equality of policy and planning in all ongoing engagement with Departments. I will Departments. table an amendment to deal with this on Commit- I remind the Minister that the Fianna Faíl-Pro- tee Stage, which I hope the Minister will accept. gressive Democrats programme for Government Part 5 establishes a statutory basis for positive of 1997, An Action Programme for the Millen- action measures to support the employment of nium, stated: “We are committed to ensuring that people with disabilities in the public service. Does disability is placed where it belongs, on the the Minister agree that working people with dis- agenda of every Government Department and abilities are getting at least the minimum wage? every public body.” The speeches by the When the Equality Bill was going through this Taoiseach and Tańaiste at the launch of the House, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law national disability strategy were uncompromising Reform accepted an amendment I put forward on in stating that they believed that the Bill was built this issue. I was surprised, therefore, to hear on on the foundation of an agreed Government the radio recently that people with disabilities not policy to mainstream public services for people far from here are not getting the minimum wage. with disabilities. Can we be sure that people with disabilities are The Disability Federation of Ireland states: not being abused financially? Are we ensuring that they are entitled to at least the minimum As a result of the clear commitment to main- wage? streaming in the Programme for Government I look forward to Committee Stage when I will (1997), the emphasis placed on the issue in the table many amendments. My Daíl colleagues put DLCG’s report Equal Citizen and the cen- forward amendments we felt were absolutely trality of mainstreaming disability services in necessary but would incur a cost on the State. We the Taoiseachs and the Tańaiste speeches, DFI were very frustrated that they were not accepted. were dismayed at the weakness of the measures Addressing the many anomalies in the legislation in the Disability Bill to legislate for the would incur a cost. Regrettably, the Minister of inclusion of people with disabilities in public State rejected those amendments in the Daíl. I services. DFI had anticipated that the Bill hope there will be co-operation on this and that would have comprehensively addressed the the Government will work with the Opposition. issue that people with disabilities are equal We can improve this Bill and enact the legislation members of the public and that the public the disability groups want, which will ultimately service infrastructure is equally for all members deliver the service to the people who need it. of the public. The Bill does not promote the inclusion of Mr. Kett: I welcome the Minister of State and people with disabilities in all public policies and I congratulate him on bringing this Bill before the services. The Bill does not oblige all Govern- House. It will be one of the most important Bills ment Departments, public bodies or publicly discussed in my time here. I commend him on funded bodies/services to ensure that all the energy and enthusiasm given to it and I also services provided are available on an equal commend the contributions made by Deputies basis to people with disabilities. The six draft O’Dea and Mary Wallace when they were in the sectoral plans by different departments are job. I know it was not an easy task. very vague and general and do not include The publication of the report by the Com- many important issues. Most importantly the mission on the Status of People with Disabilities Bill fails to oblige these statutory bodies to was a watershed in the sector. It dealt compre- ensure the inclusion of people with disabilities hensively with the issues faced by people with disin the development of their policies, plans, abilities, their carers and advocates and became programmes and services. the cornerstone of Government policy. This is a 1323 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1324

[Mr. Kett.] disability. For many families to whom I have new beginning for people with disabilities. They spoken, this is the first time they have seen a light will witness the positive manifestation of every- at the end of the tunnel. They consider that something this Government has done, from legislation thing real is finally on offer in place of mere aspir- right through to the resources the Minister of ations. I hope we continue as we have started in State is putting in the sector. Nobody has sug- ensuring that families are give all the resources gested this is the be all and end all of legislation, and commitments they require. We are putting in but it is a new beginning. Anyone who has nega- place the most effective achievable combination tive feelings about it should consider the positive of legislation, institutional arrangements and repercussions it will have for those who deal with services to support those with disabilities and disability on a daily basis. their families. This will serve to reinforce the There are many people to commend. The possibility that persons with disabilities can find DLCG is the consultative group brought together their way into the mainstream, live their lives in to guide the Minister of State, the Taoiseach and the best possible way and link into the regular others. Senator Terry mentioned that representa- workforce where possible. tives of NAMHI were upset and pulled away The unblemished truth is that all of us have from it. I accept their right to do that. However, failed persons with disabilities in the past. the Disability Federation of Ireland represents Improvement in this area is not something that is over 150 voluntary bodies and its representatives impossible to deliver. Those with disabilities have are fairly happy with the changes made and the a reasonable expectation to engage in what life amendments accepted by the Minister of State. offers them. This is not too much to ask and it is The shame on us is that we are behind in look- not too much for us to deliver. It is to be hoped ing after disabled people. They did not drop out that this legislation will ensure we have public of the sky and are here since the beginning of policy based on an understanding of disability. mankind. In pre-Christian Ireland, the Brehon This disability proofing, which was alluded to by laws categorised them, not very flatteringly, as Senator Terry, is something for which the DFI idiots, doters, fools and people without sense. has repeatedly called. However, they were exempt from certain punish- The federation asks that those charged with the ments and were protected from exploitation. responsibility of making decisions within Depart- Even at that time, such people were protected in ments will consider the needs of persons with dis- some small way. Daniel Defoe was the first per- abilities. If this approach is not taken, the con- son to come up with the idea that these people sequence will be poor decisions from the should be housed in what he termed “fool perspective of those with disabilities. There may houses”. Unfortunately, his intentions were not be a requirement in the coming years that those good as the idea was to keep them out of sight, responsible for making decisions that have an out of mind. His thinking was to protect society impact, whether negative or positive, on the lives from them and a stigma is still attached to dis- of people with disabilities should partake in a ability today. One only has to talk to people with training process that will educate them on the disabilities, their carers and families to realise impact of those decisions. People often make this. decisions without any awareness of their potential Over the past 40 years, there have been many impact on people with disabilities. A consider- improvements, especially in the attitude of the ation of the needs of those with disabilities before public. In the past eight years, major resources any decisions are made will have a positive effect. and benefits have been given to people with dis- As the Minister of State observed, significant ability, but not enough. It is no wonder the funds have been invested in the area of disability parents of these people felt so let down and so and there has been much effective legislation. frustrated by successive Governments that they There is no doubt that if this legislation is had to resort to other means to sort out their implemented effectively so that discrimination is dilemmas. The voluntary sector then came to the eliminated, employment can be an attainable fore, thanks to wonderful people with vision such objective for persons with disabilities. Employ- as the late Lady Valerie Goulding, whom I knew ment is a key to taking such persons out of the and with whom I worked. Such people stepped mire. Statistics indicate that 80% of households into the breach when the public finances were not headed by a person with a disability struggle with there and Governments were not thinking about poverty. This is not good enough and we, as the the issue. The voluntary organisations today makers and enforcers of legislation, must ensure stand disabled people in good stead. They are a we monitor the legislation to ensure its effective- credit to us all. With a few exceptions, they do a ness. Those who choose to ignore it should bear tremendous job with limited resources. the full brunt of our dissatisfaction. Many The challenge faced by this Government in Governments in the past have attempted to 1997 was formidable. There were areas where remove the various levels of discrimination from little or no service was being delivered. As some- our society but we have failed collectively in this one who has worked in this area for a long time, endeavour. I am heartened by this legislation, which will have I am delighted to note the Minister of State’s a tremendous impact into the future. Its pro- comments on developments following his recent visions represent the way forward in the area of discussions with the Taoiseach and the DLCG on 1325 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1326 the sectoral plans. More monitoring and account- and have seen at first hand the benefits partici- ability will now take place and Departments will pants derive from the workshops. Participation be required to prepare and publish a plan of pro- brings a sense of self-worth and the feeling of jected measures. Moreover, they will be required being part of a “workforce”. At the same time, to demonstrate their achievements on a regular participants have the safety net of knowing there basis. My initial impression of the sectoral plans is no pressure on them to deliver anything in was that they were somewhat milk and watery. terms of productivity and so on. However, under However, this brings an entirely new focus to this the new guidelines relating to sheltered occu- area and is a positive development. pational services, we will now have to tell these Access is the gateway to full participation in people, perhaps after they have participated for society for those with a disability. Access refers as long as 35 years, that they can no longer be not only to the ability to access a building, park accommodated. They must now either be or beach but encompasses the right to access employed in the regular workforce, which is diffi- transport services. We must facilitate people with cult to do with an embargo, or released from the disabilities in enhancing their educational pros- sheltered occupational services. pects, seeking housing and living independently if This is a cause of major concern. The idea they so desire. One of the wonderful advantages behind the workshops was that participants of modern technology is the opportunity it would be trained and educated for entry into the affords some of those with disabilities to attain an mainstream workforce. However, this is not a independent living. In short, people with dis- realistic aspiration for many people and in such abilities should have equal rights to access those cases, long-term participation in sheltered work- things which are accessible to able-bodied people. shops has been provided. It will ruin some of It is no longer acceptable that a person with a these people if they are asked to go out and join disability should have to use a back door because a special occupation scheme, SOS. They simply the front door is inaccessible, be lifted bodily up will not do it. Such persons currently enjoy true the stairs in a wheelchair or endure the humili- fulfilment but they are likely to end up participat- ation of being unable to access a toilet. Such ing only in a day care activity. Whoever evaluated occurrences should be consigned to the past. this system did not visit the sheltered workshops Part M of the Building Control Regulations that are run effectively. If they did so, they would 1991 refers to the necessity of ensuring ease of not institute the programme which they appear to access and usage for persons with disabilities in be developing. respect of new buildings and significant exten- In terms of national disability standards, a con- sions to old buildings. The inception of these pro- sultative paper on guidelines for person-centred visions raised the hopes and expectations of services has been prepared. These guidelines, people with disabilities but that hope has given which resemble the provisions of the Disability way to weary resignation. The regulations did not Bill on assessments and service statements, achieve their objective for a reason I cannot recommend that each service user should receive explain. It is to be hoped that the focus on the person-centred health services designed to meet sectoral plans will have a positive effect in terms his or her goals and needs. The essential criteria of the sectoral plan for the Department of the include participation in annual assessments of Environment, Heritage and Local Government. health service needs undertaken by a multi- There is no doubt that any ambiguity in the lang- disciplinary assessment team which identifies the uage we use in the planning regulations that services and interventions required to meet these relate to people with disabilities can be seized needs. This implies that a voluntary organisation upon by designers and architects and minimised must have a service statement for each individual or maximised to their own benefit. In those cir- involved which must be examined every year. The cumstances, it is people with disabilities who will Disability Bill appears to make the same pro- lose out. vision for people who look for an assessment. An area not covered in the Disability Bill but Will assessments through the HSE duplicate the which is of serious consequence and concern for work of voluntary organisations? It seems point- those with disabilities is the issue of sheltered less that, if an annual assessment of an individual workshops. The Employment Equality Act 1998 is conducted, the HSE should duplicate infor- and the Equal Status Act 2000 brought about a mation already recorded in his or her file. I may situation where change was needed in the func- be as far out as a lighthouse on this matter but tioning of sheltered workshops. I understand wonder whether a marriage of efforts may take there is a draft proposal on a Minister’s desk in place. this regard. I am not sure whether it is the Mini- I congratulate the Minister of State on the ster of State at the Department of Health and introduction of this Bill. On behalf of people with Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, or the Minister disabilities, I look forward to its delivery. for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin. The draft proposal considers the number Ms Tuffy: While this Bill has been subject to of workshops and the numbers of people much discussion as it passed through the Da´il, involved. time remains for the Seanad to bring it to the I work for an organisation that has managed proper standard. Senator Kett was self-congratu- one of these workshops effectively for many years latory regarding the Government’s achievement 1327 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1328

[Ms Tuffy.] The progressive realisation of services has been in bringing forward this legislation. However, as discussed. Anyone should be able to expect that the Government has said, much more needs to his or her needs will be addressed over an assess- be done. able period of time. I ask the Minister of State to In two years, this Government will have been re-examine the issue of timeframes. It is reason- in power for a decade. The two parties involved able to ask that people are given timeframes. It will have had ten years to get this legislation right. should be expected that, if assessments of needs Substantial consultation has taken place and and services are to be provided, they should be work has been done by interested parties on this carried out over a certain period. Otherwise, matter. This Bill is being introduced for a second people see no light at the end of the tunnel time. A good monument to this Government will because they are not assured that their needs will not be constructed if this process is completed be met. without key aspects being addressed. While any The Minister of State mentioned that the action is welcome, insufficient progress has been Taoiseach responded to the DLCG’s five areas made in the context of ten years of Government by setting out Government policy on each but he and the best economic circumstances this country addressed only four of these areas. The third has experienced. The past decade presented area, namely, that the Bill must provide for clear opportunities to build on experience and rectify protection of disability specific resources, has past mistakes. been identified in the Daíl. I ask the Minister of The Minister of State is correct in saying that State to re-examine this issue because funding for some issues have been addressed over the course this Bill should be ring-fenced. As this has been of consultations with the DLCG on this Bill and done for other legislation, why can it not be done during its passage through the Daíl. Credit for in this instance? We need to be sure progress will this is due to the involvement of disability action be made every year in terms of the promises contained in this legislation and the realisation of groups. I will restate the five outstanding key people’s rights. areas which remain unaddressed. The Minister of The disability groups demand that the pro- State touches on these areas but does not clarify visions on sectoral plans take account of the them in a similar manner to the various groups wider needs of people with disabilities. Each involved. These key areas have been addressed Department with relevant services must provide by groups involved with the DLCG and those not a sectoral plan. I do not understand why a mere involved with it. six Departments have been identified by the The first area involves a clear and unequivocal Government. The issues addressed by the Dis- right to an assessment of needs which is not ability Bill apply to all Departments. The resource dependent. The Minister of State said approach should not be cross-departmental as set that assessment processes will ultimately be out in the legislation, but should take in all resource dependent. His answer is not good Departments. I ask the Minister of State to recon- enough and reveals a fundamental problem in the sider the provisions and implement the key Bill. We cannot claim that equality in any other recommendations of the disability groups. sense, such as between men and women, should The fifth requirement identified by the group, be resource dependent. Matters of equality and including those involved in the DLCG, was for fundamental rights cannot be addressed in this the Bill to provide for a clear statutory duty on all manner. It implies that a sector of society is segre- Departments and public bodies to include people gated and would be the first to fall if money is with disabilities in their plans and services with not available. That is not appropriate in the con- appropriate monitoring and accountability. The text of fundamental rights. The premise of this Minister of State has not referred to such legislation is that people with disabilities have the measures although he has mentioned important same human rights as everybody else. To make provisions such as the creation of significant the rights of one category of people resource requirements for public bodies in the areas of dependent in contrast to the rest of society is to access to buildings, services, information and discriminate against that category. The legislation delivery on provisions. While these measures rep- before us is based on a discriminatory perspec- resent progress, it is not the significant progress tive. Money which is being wasted in other areas the Minister of State claimed. They are superficial could contribute to the provision of the funds provisions whereas much more fundamental necessary to avoid resource dependency. measures are required. The requirement for local Groups have noted that the services identified authorities to ensure the buildings for which it in the assessment of an individual must be pro- provides planning permission are accessible vided within a reasonable and agreed timeframe. should be enforced. People should know such The Minister of State’s response to this, which matters will be followed up in a way which does referred to the obligation on the HSE to collect not happen currently. Enforcement will not take aggregate data, is not good enough. People need place under the provisions the Government is to know that their needs will be assessed within a delivering in the Bill. certain timeframe. If this is not provided for, they Services are fundamental to a framework of the will never be sure of receiving the required type the Minister of State seems to have in mind. services. The rights movement in the disability sector 1329 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1330 wants legislation and the approach to disability to accept the determination of the appeals process, originate from a completely different perspective they should have the right of ultimate resort to than it has until now. We must start with the the courts. assumption that people with disabilities have the While points of law are allowed for, the pro- same rights as everybody else and are entitled to vision does not go far enough. If a person feels a the vindication of those rights. As one may see a decision made through the appeals process is cup which is half full as half empty, the com- unfair or mistaken, he or she should be able to pletely opposite view must be taken in our go to court to have the matter determined. While approach to disability. To provide people with we expect to have the facility in every other disability with the same human rights is not to aspect of life, we are trying to take the right away create an additional entitlement for them. Legis- from the most vulnerable group in society. The lation should enforce those rights and ensure they Minister of State said other countries had not are vindicated. provided for justiciable rights, which is an argu- The rights-based approach is not about new ment I do not accept. It is a fundamental right rights, it is about fundamental rights which in democratic countries with proper legal systems already exist. It involves the same arguments one that one can ultimately go to court to pursue would put forward to secure equal rights for men one’s rights. Not only are we failing to provide and women or people of different races or ages. rights under the legislation, we are taking them People with disabilities should have the same away. It is a step backwards. rights as everybody else. If the Government intends to do everything it says it will under the components of its strategy Mr. Dardis: That is what Mervyn Taylor did. and sectoral plans, of what is it afraid? Most people do not want to go to court, they want sim- Ms Tuffy: The Minister of State spoke about ply to be able to assert their rights straight- the \2.9 billion which is currently spent on forwardly in the course of their normal dealings services for people with disabilities. If we con- with public services. The courts are a place of last sidered the matter from the perspective I have resort for the vast majority of the population and outlined, the focus would be on the \38 billion no one takes recourse to them lightly. which is spent to proof expenditure to ensure While any legislation represents progress and everybody has his or her rights enforced, includ- the Bill has some positive elements, the failure to ing people with disabilities and people of differ- address the five recommendations of the dis- ent genders and ages. ability groups is not good enough. It is a poor In their discussions with rights groups and the effort from a Government which has had ten DLCG, the Minister of State and the Taoiseach years to formulate the legislation. To bring for- suggested a disability commissioner would be ward such legislation after ten years is to close a established under the legislation. There is a pre- door on all of those involved. How long will they cedent for the provision in the rights com- have to wait to see legislation in this area again? missioner provided for in the language legislation. Must they wait for a change of Government to The Information Commissioner is provided for in have their fundamental rights recognised? In its the FOI legislation. Commissioners can play a 1997 programme, the Government promised to role in the review of legislation such as the one carry out the wishes of those involved in the dis- promised by the Minister of State to take place ability campaign and said it was committed to in five years. A disability commissioner would be ensuring disability was placed on the agenda of the ideal person to carry out a review and ensure every Department and public body where it the legislation is implemented across the public belonged. The Government said it recognised service. that disability was one of the most important Section 20 does not provide recourse to the social issues facing Ireland. If that was true, I urge courts. As I no longer work as a solicitor, my the Minister of State to accept the five recom- interest in the matter is observational rather than mendations which have been put forward by the vested. The failure to provide such recourse is disability groups and by me today. The Minister typical of the Government’s approach to legal of State should use the Seanad as a vehicle to rights. Another example was the legislation it change the legislation. brought before the House before Christmas to deprive people of their right to compensation on Mr. Dardis: I welcome the Minister of State, foot of illegal nursing home charges. There is a Deputy Fahey, to the House for this important negative attitude to those who attempt to pursue debate. I welcome also the opportunity to speak rights which, of course, we would not have were on an important Bill, which I support though people not prepared to fight for them. Ultimately, not unreservedly. people pursue their rights through the courts. As I have fewer reservations than I originally had the legislation attempts to deprive them of the on the basis of the amendments introduced in the right, it will be found unconstitutional. It is right Daíl. Those reservations were further diminished and fitting that the legislation establishes a separ- when I heard the Minister of State inform us of ate forum people can access easily to have their the meeting which took place on 25 May between rights adjudicated. While most people will want the Taoiseach and the DLCG. He also stated that to go that way and, if the system works correctly, he hoped to be in a position to bring forward a 1331 Disability Bill 2004: 31 May 2005. Second Stage 1332

[Mr. Dardis.] in the relationship between them and the State. number of Government amendments to address Those who are entitled to look to the State to as many of the group’s proposals as possible fol- provide them with support and services can do so lowing a detailed examination of them. As the with confidence. Bill progresses I am more reassured than I was at The issue of rights has dominated the debate the outset and far more reassured than I was with on the Bill in this House, in the Da´il, in the the original Bill, especially section 47, to which media, in consultation documents, submissions the Minister referred. and the public meetings which many of us Few pieces of legislation have generated as attended. We must try to uncover the facts. The much interest, emotion or active participation by Bill is rights based but it will not be litigation the public and groups representing people with driven. That is a key point. The Bill provides new physical, sensory and intellectual disability. It is rights for people with disabilities and statements important to pay tribute to the work done by to the contrary from many quarters, both in the those people and also to acknowledge the debt House and the media, are unfair and unhelpful. society owes to them, especially those in the vol- The point has been made about disabled untary sector who have done such Trojan work in people having the same human rights as anyone highlighting the needs of people with disability else. Everybody would agree that this should be and in looking after and meeting those needs. the case. That has been enshrined in law. A body The Bill has had a long and tortuous journey of law going back ten years provides equal status to this point where we can debate it. Since I and prevents discrimination against people on the entered the Seanad in 1989 I have always tried to grounds of disability, sexual orientation, religion promote the cause of people with disability and I or any other reason. That is as it should be. hope I can claim some success in securing extra However, one cannot provide superior rights to recognition and resources for them. I accept I am one group of people. Irrespective of how worthy not alone in that. Many other Members have we might be, we all stand equal before the law. tried to do the same. I concede that matters are To bring Ireland to the highest international far from perfect but the rights of people of people standards with a legal basis for services should be with disability have gone from being little and has been the objective of the Government in debated or recognised to a point where they are drafting the legislation. The rights provided for now central within society. The Bill represents a people with disabilities are extensive and wel- major step forward on that path. come. The Government has committed itself to Every Member of the Seanad without excep- introducing rights of assessment, appeal, pro- tion wishes to vindicate, support and improve the vision and enforcement for the disabled. I com- situation of disabled people. It is entirely disin- mend this progress which will put Ireland in the genuous to suggest that people would want to do first rank in terms of international practice. Sev- other than their best, be they members of politi- eral references have been made to the consti- cal parties or not, to improve the lot of disabled tutional protection afforded to disabled people in people. We may differ deeply on occasion on how South Africa and I will return to this point later. that should be achieved but it is wrong to reduce The issue of rights has been at the heart of the the debate to a political point scoring and crude debate, especially the right to the provision of slanging match as has sometimes happened dur- services. So much so, that the other rights pro- ing recent months. No one person or group has a vided in the Bill are somewhat ignored, which is monopoly on knowledge, experience or agonising to be regretted. The right of provision must be on how best to legislate in this area. Cynical and will be limited by the availability of exploitation of vulnerable people for political resources. That is standard practice in legislation. purposes must be denounced. I have found no case internationally that is other- We are dealing with the complex and broad wise. No matter how much we would like it to be issue of disability on the one hand and the intri- otherwise we should be honest and say that is cacies of legislation on the other. That has made how it must be. Anyone who intends to challenge legislative progress a fraught exercise. I was this view in the debate in this House in the com- closely involved in the first attempt to produce ing days should reconsider the basis for his or suitable legislation, which was subsequently with- her claims. drawn. On that basis I welcome the fact that we No State can provide for unfettered absolute have reached this stage in the legislative process rights for any group, able bodied or otherwise. and that the Disability Bill 2004 has finally The State must act in the interest of all its citi- reached the Seanad. zens. These rights cannot be justiciable. The State I would have had serious difficulties in support- should provide equal rights to all its citizens but ing section 47 of the original Bill, which protected cannot and should not provide for superior rights the State against legal challenge. I welcome the for particular individuals, however worthy they fact that amendments have been made. I would may be. have had difficulty with the Bill if certain aspects No country has provided a right to court had not been amended. The Bill as currently enforced services, irrespective of resources. To do presented represents a significant step forward. It so would be unrealistic, unwise, disingenuous and may be less than ideal but it will lead to a major irresponsible. There will be those who will persist improvement in the lives of disabled people and and argue this point. Most likely they will say that 1333 Hospitals Building 31 May 2005. Programme 1334 what people with disabilities want is the right to vention. The raft of equality and non-discrimi- court enforced services, irrespective of resources. nation measures introduced by successive The Minister of State has told us about the cost Governments over the past 15 years supplements of court enforced services. He made the point the amendments and provides the necessary legal that for every \1 which the litigant received, the protection to vindicate rights where necessary. legal services received \4. We do not want another charter that is a gravy train for the Debate adjourned. people in the Law Society. The absolutist view must be challenged. What people with disability Acting Chairman (Mr. J. Walsh): When is it want are predictable, deliverable and quality proposed to sit again? services, proper recognition and a good quality of life. They do not want court cases which would Mr. Dardis: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow. not be helpful for them. Individuals and groups that referred to the Adjournment Matters. South African constitutional provision of rights to services have gleaned much political capital. I ———— wish to put the record straight on this issue. The provision is an empty one. It is meaningless, unimplemented and unimplementable. Promi- Hospitals Building Programme. nent Irish activists in intellectual disability have Mr. Kitt: I thank the Chair for allowing me to assured me from their recent visits to South raise the issue of the health campus for Tuam, Africa that the level of services provided on the County Galway. For many years the Bon Secours ground is very poor and is much worse than that order had a hospital in Tuam, known locally as in Ireland at present. While it is part of the consti- the Grove hospital. It was very disappointing that tution, there is no evidence that the constitutional it was sold some years ago. I was thankful that protection has been implemented on the ground. the former Western Health Board bought not Before citing examples of what Ireland should only the hospital but also the surrounding prop- aspire to in terms of services for the disabled, erty from the Bon Secours sisters. I pay tribute to people should look at the reality on the ground. them for their work in Tuam over many years. Providing for something unrealistic The former Western Health Board acted 8 o’clock in a constitution or anywhere else is quickly not only in calling for the purchase of the not the same as making it a reality. property by the health board and for funding I am satisfied that rather than including empty from the Government, but also in sending a provisions, the Bill is realistic in what it states it design brief to the Department in October 2002. can do for people, which is what they deserve. The brief envisaged not only a community We must move away from allowing the argument hospital to replace the existing hospital but also to dominate discussion on the Bill. It will serve an Alzheimer’s unit, a child care training centre, no purpose other than to deflect from the other a primary care unit and an ambulance base. The sections of the legislation which should be exam- community in north Galway and I are very ined by the House. One such issue, which is an anxious for approval to be given by the Depart- integral one, is definition. I had concerns about ment to proceed to the design stage. With such a the definition of “disability” in the original draft large number of projects involved, it would be of the legislation. My concern centred on the very useful if even one part of the project could definition in section 2(1) of the Bill which be expedited. referred to “a substantial restriction in the capa- There is no ambulance base in north Galway at city of the person to carry on a profession, busi- present, which is quite appalling. This, combined ness or occupation in the State or to participate with many complaints regarding the out-of-hours in social or cultural life ... ”. This definition is less doctor service, means people feel very isolated if than ideal, it is vague and raises questions. For they are ill, particularly in the evening or at night. example, how does it sit with the experience of I hope progress is made on the ambulance unit. the many blind or deaf people who are pursuing The issue of the primary care unit was very great careers and have very fulfilling lives? Is much in the news a year ago. We were in compe- their blindness or deafness considered a disability tition with Erris in County Mayo regarding the under the legislation? Should it be? location of such a unit. It was finally located in I also have reservations about the word “end- Erris and north Galway lost out. Therefore, it is uring” as used in the phrase “an enduring physi- very important that the primary care unit be very cal, sensory, mental health or intellectual impair- much at the centre of the submission on the ment”. This raises questions about those less- design brief. enduring or episodic illnesses which the majority The health campus, particularly the hospital, of people would still consider to be disabling, not only proposes to include north Galway but particularly in terms of mental illness. also south Mayo and part of west Roscommon. It I am very much reassured by the amendments is vital that a response be made on this matter. I to section 6, now section 7(2). This ensures clarity know the Minister for Health and Children, on the inclusion of those with mental health Deputy Harney, has met many community impairments and children requiring early inter- groups, the town council in Tuam and other 1335 Hospitals Building 31 May 2005. Programme 1336

[Mr. Kitt.] was approximately \287 million and additional deputations in respect of the hospital. Since there revenue funding of \15.228 million was is such a large number of issues associated with announced for this year. This serves to demon- the health campus, I hope the Minister of State strate the Government’s ongoing commitment to will at least ensure that progress is made in improving services for our older population. respect of some of them. Significant capital funding for the health sector An ambulance service is very important for has been provided since the commencement of Tuam and the north Galway area. Most of the the national development plan in 2000. Total GPs who work in the area know this to be true expenditure for 2000 to 2004 was approximately and I have discussed it with them. I thank the \2.1 billion. Minister of State for taking this matter. The sub- Considerable progress has been made in mission regarding the design brief has been with addressing the historical deficits in health infra- the Department since October 2002, which is over structure and improving the standards of facilities two and a half years. I hope I can report progress required for quality modern patient care. The to the people of north Galway who have been national development plan is providing consider- advocating the development in question for able capital funding for services for older people. some years. On a national basis, this will enable a comprehensive infrastructure of community nursing units Minister of State at the Department of Health and day-care facilities to be put in place as well and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): I thank Senator as the refurbishment of existing extended-care Kitt for raising this matter on the Adjournment. facilities and the replacement of old workhouse- I am responding to it on behalf of my colleague, type accommodation. Older people deserve first- the Tańaiste and Minister for Health and Chil- class facilities and we intend to provide these in dren, Deputy Harney. appropriate locations. Following the closure by the Bon Secours order As the House will be aware, the Health Act of the Grove hospital in Tuam, the former West- 2004 provided for the Health Service Executive, ern Health Board, now the HSE, Western Area, which was established on 1 January 2005. Under which is responsible, in the first instance, for the the Act, the HSE has the responsibility to man- provision of health services in the Tuam area, age and deliver, or arrange to be delivered on its took a decision to build a new 50-bed community behalf, health and personal social services. This hospital on the grounds and adjoining lands to includes responsibility for the proposed devel- replace the existing facility. This new hospital will opments at Tuam hospital. comprise a mix of up to 30 beds for continuing The HSE, Western Area, has prepared a pro- care and the remaining beds will consist of direct ject planning brief for the Tuam health campus access beds, rehabilitation or convalescent beds, incorporating a community hospital, Alzheimer’s respite beds and palliative care beds. unit, child-care training centre, primary care unit In line with what is generally provided in HSE and an ambulance base. As responsibility for the district hospitals, the service will have a very sig- development of services now rests with the HSE, nificant mix of multidisciplinary staff, including any decisions relating to this project, including its medical, nursing, nursing support and paramed- phasing, will be a matter for that body, having ical staff, as well as other complementary thera- regard to the western area’s overall capital fund- pists. Coupled with this, the HSE, Western Area, ing priorities in the context of the HSE’s service envisages the Tuam hospital functioning as the plan for 2005 and beyond. The Tańaiste and hub of a comprehensive outreach service provid- Minister for Health and Children believes that ing home care programmes, including physio- there is scope for innovative partnership working therapy, occupational therapy, chiropody, home in the development and delivery of projects such nursing, home help and other flexible packages as those proposed for Tuam and this is something of care. These specialist care facilities will be sup- that has been suggested for consideration by the ported by social support services such as com- HSE in respect of this particular project. munity welfare and home advisory programmes. The House might wish to note that the Minister This project does not, therefore, envisage the re- met with a cross-party delegation from Tuam opening of the old hospital for nursing care Town Council at the end of January and was bri- purposes. efed on the proposal to develop a health campus The Government has made services for older on the grounds of the hospital. During the meet- people a priority and is fully committed to the ing the Tańaiste acknowledged the importance of development of a comprehensive health service utilising facilities which were purchased by the capable of responding quickly, fully and effec- State for health care use, but this would have to tively to the health service needs of older people. be done in the context of the HSE’s service plan In recent years, health and social services for for the western area. Members of the delegation older people have improved, both in hospitals put forward a number of suggestions on the and in the community. Since coming into office, options concerning the possible use of the Grove the Government has substantially increased the hospital building. The Tańaiste undertook to level of funding, both capital and revenue, in examine these options and to revert back to respect of services for older people. Between Tuam Town Council. I can assure the House that 1997 and 2004, total additional funding allocated the Department will continue to liaise with the 1337 Pension 31 May 2005. Provisions 1338

HSE to progress this project in the context of the will name the people who benefit, but I would HSE’s service plan. like him to. At any rate, I want to know which schemes are benefiting and to what extent. Can Mr. Kitt: I thank the Minister of State. Is he in he put a figure on the amount involved? a position to say whether the partnership to which As I told the Minister for Social and Family he refers is a PPP? Affairs, if all those tax breaks were to be cancelled and the same money put into old age pen- Mr. T. O’Malley: It was something akin to a sions, they could be doubled overnight for every PPP. The Ta´naiste asked them to be innovative. worker in the country. That might not be in the It would be something like that, but I do not want best interests of everybody but the tax breaks as to circumscribe it. set up at present are not fair and I would like this to be addressed. I want the Government to be Pension Provisions. open and transparent as regards who is benefiting Ms Terry: I thank the Minister of State for stay- from these tax breaks. ing to take my Adjournment motion. I put the question to the Minister for Social and Family Mr. T. O’Malley: I thank Senator Terry for Affairs, but it was referred to the Minister for raising this matter. I am replying to her motion Finance. That is somewhat of a problem for the on behalf of the Minister for Finance, Deputy two Departments in terms of which of them deals Cowen. with pensions. Will the Minister of State provide The ESRI report referred to is entitled Pen- me with a breakdown of the \2.5 billion tax sions Incomes and Replacement Rates in 2000, breaks enjoyed by the pensions industry? This published in May 2005. Page 38 of that report figure was given to me by the Minister for Social states, “The Revenue Commissioners estimate and Family Affairs during the debate on pensions that the net cost of the tax reliefs for private pen- last year. sion saving by employees, employers and the self- \ However, there was some confusion when the employed in the year 2000/01 amounted to 1.5 \ Minister came to debate the ESRI report on pen- billion.” This ESRI figure is 1 billion less than sions, when he said the tax breaks amounted to that mentioned in the Adjournment motion. \1.5 billion. I had to remind him he had told me The following estimates of the cost for 2000-01 earlier the tax breaks were to the value of \2.5 of certain pension reliefs are contained in table billion. It is important that we should know where IT6 dealing with the cost of allowances and reliefs these tax breaks are going. It is not the ordinary in the Revenue Commissioners’ statistical report man or woman in the street who is benefiting for 2002: employees’ contributions to approved from them. They are benefiting the better off in superannuation schemes — \471.9 million; our society. employers’ contributions to approved superannu- \ When we are discussing pensions and planning ation schemes — 646.2 million; exemption of net to make them compulsory, with no guarantee of income of approved superannuation funds a return on that money, it is critical that we look (contributions plus investment income less \ at who is benefiting from the tax breaks. I remind outgoings) — 1,292.3 million; and retirement \ the Minister of State that at a time when many annuity premiums — 205 million. The first three PAYE workers are being told by employers that of these four figures are stated in the Revenue their defined benefits schemes are being wound report to be particularly tentative. The total of \ up or are under-funded and they are being the four figures comes to 2,615 million, which is \ encouraged to take out defined contributions broadly in line with the 2.5 billion mentioned by schemes, those same employers are making enor- Senator Terry. There is no breakdown available mous contributions to their own pension funds of the first three figures as these are tentative and gaining very significant tax breaks. Some of estimates. these directors are adding \1 million a year to The \205 million figure relating to retirement their pension schemes, while telling employees annuity premiums is the Exchequer cost of the that their pension funds are being wound up. contributions to retirement annuity schemes, Therefore, tax breaks as regards pensions are which schemes can be taken out by self-employed grossly inequitable in the way they are dealt with persons and by employees who are not members by the Government. of an occupational pension scheme of their For some people tax avoidance schemes involv- employers. There were 101,703 contributions ing pensions are probably the most beneficial made to retirement annuity contracts for 2000-01 mechanism ever devised for reducing tax liability. relating to this \205 million Exchequer cost. This needs to be looked at and made more equit- There is no breakdown available to hand of the able, so everyone benefits from these tax breaks amounts claimed in respect of the ten highest which should not be just accessible to the weal- contributions made. In any event Revenue confi- thy. Such people are well off. Many company dentiality would rule out the identification of the directors are on very good salaries to start with. individuals concerned. I am more interested in ensuring PAYE workers With regard to the issue of obtaining further have decent pensions when they retire. I hope the information on the Exchequer cost of pension Minister of State can tell the House who is ben- reliefs, the Department of Finance and the Rev- efiting from these tax breaks. I doubt whether he enue Commissioners have been working closely 1339 The 31 May 2005. Adjournment 1340

[Mr. T. O’Malley.] role in this regard. It should be borne in mind recently to investigate data capture issues with a that when pensions are eventually drawn down in view to improving data quality and transparency retirement they are taxable subject to the usual without overburdening compliant taxpayers. income tax rules. Thus, a significant part of the Arising from this work, provisions were included Exchequer cost of the reliefs is eventually in the Finance Act 2004 requiring employers to recouped. give information regarding the total employer It should be noted that these tax reliefs for and employee pension contributions in the private pension provision reduce the burden on annual P35 form detailing PAYE paid and so on. the State to provide a larger amount of direct The preliminary data should become available pension provision. In contrast, a number of other from early 2006 after the relevant income tax EU member states such as Germany, France and returns are filed. Austria whose pension provision is largely or It should be stated that the purpose of these almost entirely State funded have had to take various tax reliefs is to encourage employers to major corrective action in the pensions area over provide pensions for their employees and to the past five years because of the pressure on the encourage employees and the self-employed to public finances caused by demographic and other contribute to or to provide for their own pen- factors affecting pension provision. sions. This has been long-standing Government policy. It is also Government policy to increase The Seanad adjourned at 8.15 p.m. until pension coverage and these tax reliefs play a key 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 1 June 2005.