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Anna Miller & Anita Shenoi

Exploring Human Rights: Memory Laws Podcast Transcript and Bibliography

TRANSCRIPT *Background sound of many voices talking to each other.*

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DON LEMON The Q-Anon congressowmen actually compares the mask mandate in the house to .

MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN You know, we can look back in a time in hisotry where people were told to wear a gold star, and they were definitely treated like second class citizens so much so that they were put in trains and taken to gas chambers in , and this is exactly the type of abuse that Nancy Pelosi is talking about.

DON LEMON I mean, uh, I don’t like to call people names, but that’s outrageous. Comparing mask wearing to Jews being sent to the gas chamber…

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ANITA It’s outrageous, and it’s unacceptable. We just heard CNN’s Don Lemon reacting to a clip of U.S. Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene comparing House Speaker Pelosi’s mask-mandate on the chamber floors to the reprehensible and horrific acts carried out by the Nazi regime. Her comments were swiftly condemned by many, and yet she still stands by them, in a vocal and persistent manner. This isn’t the first time that U.S. politicians and lawmakers have falsely compared the COVID-19 crisis to the Holocaust, and we have to wonder how these comments do not always impact the politician’s support in a negative manner. Is this due to a lack of education about this ? Worrying statistics show that more than half of 2

American adults don’t know how many people died in the Holocaust, a result perhaps of the 31 U.S. states who do not require public schools to educate students about it. If Americans were widely educated about it, would there be less of these comparisons which trivialize Nazi-era persection?

In the United States, there are no formal, legal policies in place to preserve the history of the Holocaust. Unlike Germany, the U.S. does not enforce memory laws that would make things like the Nazi salute or holocaust denial illegal. On our podcast, “Exploring Human Rights,” we will keep these questions in mind as we analyze memory laws in an effort to understand them and their cultural, social, and political impact.

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ANNA Hello everyone and welcome to “Exploring Human Rights,” a podcast where two graduate students discuss the pressing issues related to human rights ideology and discourse. My name is Anna Miller.

ANITA And I am Anita Shenoi. We are so excited to bring human rights dialogue to the podcast community.

ANNA Absolutely. Human rights is a conversation where we all deserve a space at the table to discuss.

ANITA Exactly. And it’s also a space for diverse opinions, nuanced perspectives, and even uncomfortable conversations.

ANNA Agreed. So, Anita, what are we talking about today?

ANITA Well, today we’re going to dive into an issue that seems straightforward but is actually way more complex than most people think. 3

ANNA That sounds like a typical human rights issue.

ANITA Today, we’re talking about memory laws. Memory laws ban certain speech about historical events in favor of state-approved narratives of those historical events. These laws are especially prominent in . For example, in several European countries, including Austria, , and Germany, a key memory law that prevents holocaust denial. In Germany, if a citizen is caught publicly denying or minimizing the impact of the holocaust, they could actually face time in jail.

ANNA Right. And memory laws can look different depending on the country involved. They are not just about the holocaust, but they can also be used to criminalize speech and expression that denies or minimizes .

ANITA So, on the surface, memory laws seem like a slam dunk for human rights. Memory laws preserve history. They protect the experiences of victims. They provide consequences for extremists who think certain and crimes against humanity are not real. And on a macro level, memory laws help ensure peaceful coexistence of different members within a country. They can help tame racism, bigotry, and intolerance, and they can help reduce violence amongst citizens. So all in all, memory laws can encourage a healthy, pluralistic society.

ANNA But on the other hand, some wonder if memory laws are actually beneficial for a country or society in general. Because memory laws don’t just ban the crazy speech of extremists, they ban the open, democratic discussion of genocide and crimes against humanity. Historians and scholars in countries with certain memory laws cannot publish any work that is antithetical to the state sponsored narrative of history. So, do we really have pluralism in society if certain voices are banned? 4

ANITA That’s a great point Anna. And it also brings us to that question of why people deny genocides, not only within their private conversations, but through published works, or you know, flyers they hand out, or attempts to change the educational narrative for children to that of denial. I mean - what is their goal? Why are they so staked on this?

ANNA In some readings we did about the Srebrenica genocide, the authors discussed how “justifications of atrocities were invented as the result of a societal need to understand and incorporate violent events within culturally acceptable boundaries.” But really, a societal response should not be to deny the events. The intentionality and planning that goes into the decision to actively deny atrocities - I suppose that brings us to the question of whether people should then be criminally prosecuted for denial.

ANITA That is a complex question, because it seems that criminally prosecuting them doesn’t always have the desired outcome. We’ve seen many cases in which these deniers become martyrs for the cause, further shifting the narrative to that of deniers being the ones discriminated against.

ANNA Right. So are memory laws enforced through the legal system actually effective in what they set out to achieve?

ANITA Let’s take a close look at two different countries with two very different stances on memory laws, Germany and the United States. Germany is renowned for the legal framework it put in place after the holocaust to honor the victims and keep this type of tragedy from ever happening again. And the United States is renowned for its protection of free speech, as iterated in the first amendment of the U.S. constitution.

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And we should say now, both of these concepts are important for a healthy society. Honoring history and victims is critical. And free speech is critical.

ANITA Right. So, Anna, why don’t you explain what’s at stake in the United States in relation to memory laws.

ANNA Well, while the United States was involved in World War II - in both positive and negative ways - the holocaust did not take place on U.S. soil. So post WWII, there wasn’t necessarily an onus on the U.S. to establish memory laws in the U.S. However, there were Nazi supporters living in the U.S. in the 1930s and 40s. And there is still a strong neo-Nazi presence in the U.S. today. In 2020, the Southern Poverty Law Center reported 26 active neo-Nazi groups in the U.S. And we know that the antisemitism that precipitated the holocaust has a strong presence in the U.S. now. In 2020, The Anti-Defamation League reported 2,107 antisemitic incidents in the U.S. And a considerable portion of antisemitic incidents reported to the ADL are incidents of holocaust denial.

ANITA So even with a neo-Nazi presence and a high rate of antisemitism, the U.S. isn’t interested in enacting memory laws?

ANNA So, one of the biggest issues related to memory laws is free speech. And as we know, the United States is famous, or infamous, for protecting free speech at almost any cost. And interestingly, the Anti-Defamation League actually recommends more speech, rather than censored speech. In the U.S., we still have the opportunity to speak truth in a respectful way and counter the opinions of extremists without limiting our basic right to .

ANITA Wow. And then Germany, on the other hand, has quite a different approach to memory laws, and how they educate youth on what these laws are and what’s acceptable within society. And to 6

speak more on that, we actually have a German guest, Emma, who generously took time off of her university studies to give us her thoughts.

*Clapping noises*

ANITA Welcome Emma! And thank you so much for joining us. We were wondering if you could first share with us where and how you learned about these memory laws as a child growing up in Germany?

EMMA Hi Anita and Anna, thank you so much for having me. I think almost every German knows that the Holocaustleugnung, so the denial of the Holocaust, is very illegal in Germany and it’s included in our criminal code so if you commit this crime in front of people in a public space, or on TV, or on the radio, or in a writing you publish, you have to pay fine or you can be sentenced up to five years in prison. You’re also not allowed to do the Hitlergruß, so raising your right arm so that your hands are at the same height as your eyes, or say Nationalist Socialist Parole, or use symbols like hakenkreuz or the swastika. As a German, it was really weird when I was visiting Bali to see swastikas everywhere because they are really illegal here in Germany. Of course one of our first articles in our constitution is the freedom of speech. However there is an exception when you’re talking about the holocaust, to protect the millions of victims who died, and to show that this could never ever happen again.

ANITA So it seems like it’s not only common knowledge, but socially unacceptable to engage with Nazi symbols or a denial narrative. Did you learn about these laws in a classroom setting?

EMMA I don’t think that we had a class that taught us specifically about the laws - I think we just learnt them along the way because we had so many classes about our history. We went to Poland to visit concentration camps, we went to Berlin to see 7

the Holocaust Memorial, we watched a lot of movies that were sometimes really uneasy to look at. And one time there was also a lady, an elderly woman, that came to our school who survived life in concentration camp and held speeches, so if you just hear so much about it you also get interested in it and I think your parents also teach you about the laws, but we did not specifically learn them in school.

ANNA That must have been very powerful and emotional to not only learn about the history, but to visit specific concentration camp sites and memorials. With this educational experience, do you think that people in Germany then avoid referring to the Holocaust as a comparison for, let’s say mask-wearing, as we heard about at the beginning of this conversation?

EMMA When I think about people who compare things for the Holocaust unfairly, I immediately have to think about the people that went to the coronavirus protests here in Germany because it was really big in the news that there was, for example, one girl who compared herself to Anne Frank because she also has to hide in a room or another woman who on stage claimed to be Sophie Scholl because she is fighting against the government and she’s also 22 years old.

*Audio clip of German anti-lockdown protester comparing herself to Sophie Scholl, a Nazi resistance fighter. Translation: “I am 22 years old, just like Sophie Scholl before she fell victim to the Nazis.”*

EMMA Keep in mind that Sophie Scholl was murdered when she was 22 for fighting against the NS regime, so this is really really messed up and unacceptable. However there’s also the other side where especially people from my generation are very quick to call people Nazis for having a right wing political opinion and I also think this goes way too far and is not okay and also downplays the horrible things the Nazis did. So yeah there are two sides. 8

ANNA Thank you so much for joining us today Emma, some great insight here today, I think it’s really interesting, the comparison between Germany and the United States, the different ways that both countries approach the past and try to repair the past, and it’s funny, we see very different strategies in both countries and yet similar outcomes, so that’s just something to think about.

ANITA Yes it for sure is! And Anna, we can dive into that a little bit more but for now I think we should let Emma get back to her studies. Emma, thank you so much for joining us.

EMMA Okay, bye!

*sound of a drum and cymbal indicates conclusion of guest segment*

ANNA That was great hearing about German memory laws and how they play out through what Emma shared.

ANITA It really was - you know, I didn’t expect for there to be such extreme and public comparisons of Covid restrictions to Nazi Germany rule given how educated German youth are on the genocide.

ANNA In line with that though, is the fact that, in 2020, Germany actually expereinced nearly 200 more antisemitic incidients than the United States did and far more of Germany’s antisemitic incidences are violent. In the US it is primarily harrasment and graffiti but in Germany there were more violent antisemitic incidences last year.

ANITA Wow. After talking it out, it seems as if memory laws aren’t quite as effective as they seem. So obviously we have a lot to 9

think about when it comes to memory laws. The conversation continues beyond this podcast. So we’d like to encourage you to think about your own beliefs when it comes to memory laws. Do you believe that these laws genuinely honor victims of genocide and crimes against humanity? Should more countries use memory laws in the wake of mass atrocities? Do memory laws change the way we understand the past? And should memory laws take precedence over free speech?

ANNA Challenging questions, for sure. But that’s how it goes when it comes to human rights. (tone shift) Friends, thank you so much for joining us for this discussion. We’ve linked all our sources below, and some additional pieces we found interesting, so check those out! We hope that this has been a fruitful conversation that has encouraged you to think about the complexity and depth of human rights issues.

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BIBLIOGRAPHY

Anti-Defamation League. “Free Speech.” June 2021. https://www.adl.org/what-we-do/discrimination/free-speech.

Anti-Defamation League. “Audit of Antisemitic Incidents 2020.” June 2021. https://www.adl.org/audit2020.

Council of Europe. “‘Memory Laws’ and Freedom of Expression.” July 2018. https://rm.coe.int/factsheet-on-memory-laws-july2018-docx/16808c1690.

Lara J. Nettelfield and Sarah E. Wagner, Srebrenica in the Aftermath of Genocide (Cambridge University Press, 2014), 256.

Nobles, Ryan. “Marjorie Taylor Green compares House mask mandates to the Holocaust.” CNN. May 22, 2021. https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/21/politics/marjorie-taylor-greene-mask-mandates-holocaust/inde x.html. 10

Ramgopal, Kit. “Survey finds ‘shocking’ lack of Holocaust knowledge among millennials and Gen Z.” NBC News. September 16, 2020. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/survey-finds-shocking-lack-holocaust-knowledge-among -millennials-gen-z-n1240031.

Southern Poverty Law Center. “Neo-Nazi.” June 2021. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/neo-nazi.

The Guardian. “German anti-mask protester compares herself to Sophie Scholl during speech – video.” November 22, 2020. https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2020/nov/23/german-anti-mask-protester-compares-h erself-to-sophie-scholl-during-speech-video.