John Glaetzer

STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

OH 692/46

Full transcript of an interview with

JOHN GLAETZER

on 26 August 2002

by Rob Linn

Recording available on CD

Access for research: Unrestricted

Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study

Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library

OH 692/46 JOHN GLAETZER

NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT

This transcript was donated to the State Library. It was not created by the J.D. Somerville Oral History Collection and does not necessarily conform to the Somerville Collection's policies for transcription.

Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word and reflects the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The State Library is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the interview, nor for the views expressed therein. As with any historical source, these are for the reader to judge.

This transcript had not been proofread prior to donation to the State Library and has not yet been proofread since. Researchers are cautioned not to accept the spelling of proper names and unusual words and can expect to find typographical errors as well.

TAPE 1 - SIDE A

NATIONAL WINE CENTRE, WOLF BLASS FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT. Interview with John Glaetzer on 26th August, 2002. Interviewer: Rob Linn.

John, where and when were you born?

JG: I was born in 1948. Would you believe Christmas Day? With an identical twin brother.

That’s Colin, is it?

JG: Colin.

And who were your parents, John?

JG: I was born in Whyalla. My parents, Len and Sylvia Glaetzer. Mum passed away a couple of months ago and Dad passed away 1980, and they were both born on vineyards in the Clare Valley. A place called White Hut. It’s a little bit north of Clare.

I know White Hut.

JG: Great spot.

Yes, it is. Too right. So they came from the Clare Valley themselves but you were born at Whyalla. Was your dad in a job up there?

JG: Yes. At that stage Dad was carting dried fruit. He had a little truck. Apart from the vineyard and the orchard in Clare. To make a living he used to cart dried apricots and stuff. And that business sort of got a little bit quiet so he moved up to Whyalla when they started on the breakwaters and he used to cart rocks for that, for work. So they lived in a caravan in Whyalla from—I’m not too sure of the years. During the war, towards the

end of the war. Lived in a caravan at Whyalla on a block for many years and built their own home, Mum making all the bricks by herself.

Cement bricks, were they?

JG: Yes.

Gee!

JG: And Dad building a house.

That’s a fairly big task, isn’t it?

JG: Yes.

So John, did you do your schooling in Whyalla or down in Clare?

JG: Dad moved before the shipyards were built in Whyalla. Whyalla of course went through its doldrums before the shipyards so Dad moved his business down to Adelaide at a place called Beverley. Just a single truck. Used to cart bricks. All on by hand and off by hand. Pretty hard yakka. So I went to school in Adelaide. Little primary school called Kilkenny on Port Road, and I was lucky enough to get to a high school called Adelaide Technical High, which used to be in North Terrace.

The School of Mines.

JG: The School of Mines. So we were pretty lucky to get into there.

I didn’t know you were a graduate of that famous facility, John.

JG: Oh, we used to have a wonderful time. You know, twin boys. Did we used to get in some strife? It was pretty handy actually because there used to be a lot of fountains through there and we’d like to see the fountains frothy, a bit more attractive, so either Colin or myself would stand alongside the local copper in North Terrace and the other one would put the Fab in. Make sure someone saw us and then the witness would always come up and say, ‘It was him. He did it. He did it’. And the copper would always say, ‘No. This little gentleman’s been standing here for the last half hour’. We never got caught. (Laughter)

So John, was the schooling there pretty terrific? It’s got a great reputation.

JG: Yes, it was a pretty good school. I think it was three years we went to school in North Terrace and then they moved it out to Glenunga, and I don’t think the school at Glenunga was a patch on the one at North Terrace. We had a lot of fun. The first time I did Leaving I failed miserably. I only got one subject. Because that’s when girls became attractive, and motor cars and all that. So second time around it was either get a kick up the arse from Dad, pull my head in, which I did. And I was pretty lucky, I topped the State in Maths 1 Maths 2 and credits for every other subject, apart from English. And that gave me the first Commonwealth scholarship to Roseworthy College for oenology.

So what year would that have been, John?

JG: 1966.

Now, at home, had your Mum and Dad had wine on the table at all?

JG: Yes, it was. Dad always had a Port with a meal.

So fortifieds?

JG: Yes, back then. Any birthdays, or anything like that, we always had a Wynn’s sparkling wine. A Romalo.

Norm and Hurtle Walker.

JG: Yes. One of Normie’s. And nine times out of ten it would have been sparkling Burgundy.

Is that right?

JG: It’s pretty funny how things happen. In that year I won the scholarship, business in Adelaide for Dad was getting a bit slack. He was making more money sitting on his bum than competing with the cut- throats. So he was pretty good friends with Len Norman. Used to buy Port

from there, and an occasional dry white. So Dad went and gave him a hand. He needed a hand for one vintage, carting some wine and general odds and sods. And Dad finished up working for Len Norman for ten years.

Did he? So this is when Normans were down -

JG: Underdale.

On the Torrens flats there.

JG: Yes, in Holbrooks Road.

The bowling club’s there now.

JG: Right alongside the bowling club. That’s where I had my twenty-first, in the bowling club.

Did you?

JG: Yes.

That was a beautiful location in those days I guess.

JG: Oh, lovely spot. And I finished up doing a vintage there in ‘66/67.

Before you went to Roseworthy?

JG: Before I went to Roseworthy, yes. Still at high school.

Could you tell me what Normans was like in those days at Underdale?

JG: There were no vineyards there. All the vineyards at that stage were out at Angle Vale. Who looked after those? There was Len and his brother—can’t think of his name—but the brother looked after the vineyards and Len looked after the winery. And you wouldn’t believe it! Wolfy was employed there in 1966/67 -

As a consultant.

JG: - as a consultant. Of course, Wolf and my Dad became very close friends. That’s probably one of the reasons for the association now. But

the company back then, I forget what they used to do. Guessing a bit. Probably 100/120 ton. Maybe a little bit more.

Open fermenters, John?

JG: Yes, open roof fermenters. Temperature control was, you know, if it was a cold day the ferments wouldn’t get hot. (Laughter) I remember Wolfy’s ‘67 Grey Label. Still remember taking the temperature. It was 104 degrees Fahrenheit. And no-one seemed too overly concerned back then. And that wine went on to win the Montgomery in Adelaide. They made a little bit of table wine. Moselle was pretty fashionable. Riesling was fairly big back in those days. Used to ferment in little 1,000 gallon pressure tanks. So they were fairly well ahead for that time. Reds were made traditional until Wolfy came along and introduced some of the new age fermentation. That’s the bit I liked down there. All the smells and aromas you got from the new barrels with the reds fermenting in them. Fantastic.

Were they smaller barrels or the larger oak?

JG: All hogsheads. And the main storage down there was wooden vats. There were no stainless steel tanks. Just a couple of these painted pressure tanks. And the rest, even the white wines, were in waxed vats.

Do you recall the wine at all, John?

JG: The Riesling was good. Probably a lot broader than what we make now.

Flinty?

JG: A little bit hard actually.

Yes, I know what you mean.

JG: But for Angle Vale I thought they were pretty good wines. And they used to pick up an occasional gold medal with them, and silvers. So in their time they were quite good.

Yes, it’s interesting. Just thinking, that’s not that long ago, and there you have quite a reasonable winery really in the heart of Adelaide suburbia.

JG: Yes. I think it’s all gone now. I’m not too sure what’s happened.

Yes, I’m pretty sure it has, too. There’s a lot of factories around there now, or small factories.

JG: The bottle shop’s still there.

Yes, the bottle shop’s there. Indeed it is. I don’t even know if the shed’s left now—the front shed. Can’t remember.

JG: Forget what happened there. Behind the front shed, there was a lot of flagons sold there. And it was another job washing flagons, and they had one of these fancy flagon washing machines, which were a bit of fun. All their fortified, of course, was filled there.

So this is barrel flagons, John?

JG: Barrel flagons, yes.

So hand corking?

JG: Yes, just stoppers. The capsules were in a solution. You’d slip those over and they shrunk on. The table wines were all bottled by hand with a corker—hand corker.

Amazing.

JG: I forget what we used to do. Five hundred dozen a day.

That’s pretty good going.

JG: I forget how many we had in the summer. Probably about four, all up.

So you were a pretty young fellow then, and you meet Wolfy, who would have been in his twenties at that stage. Or early thirties/late twenties.

JG: Early thirties I reckon he would have been. I think it was before I won the scholarship because my Dad was always saying to Wolfy, ‘What do you

reckon the twin boys should do?’ Because, you know, the trucking business was pretty cut-throat. And Wolfy said, ‘Look, this wine industry’s going to boom in table wine. See if they can get into that’. I’ll never forget one day Wolfy lined up seventeen reds in this tiny little laboratory, and said, ‘Okay, Glaetzer, you pick out first, second and third’. This is basically before I’d tasted too much wine. Anyway, Wolfy wandered in probably after an hour and blew his stack because I was wasting time, taking too long. And I gave him my notes. You know, first because, second because, third because. And then the little German guy, his head hit the roof, he was jumping up and down, really cutting crook. ‘You little bugger, you’ve been looking at my notes’. He was jumping up and down, and he reaches over to his back pocket and pulls out his own notes. In amazement he gets his notes out, and gets mine, and couldn’t believe it. That settled it, once and for all. Glaetzer’s going to be a winemaker and Glaetzer’s going to work for me. And that was it.

So did you have any inclination prior to that to taste wines?

JG: Oh, all the ferments. And if there was anything on the bench

Give you a taste.

JG: Oh, yes. Have a look.

So had they spoken to you down there about—you know, this is what’s good and bad about this?

JG: Not in detail, no.

So it was just your innate knowledge I suppose.

JG: Yes, because I took a lot of notice. I was very interested. So I had basically no experience, picking out the same top three as Wolfy’s.

So you hit it off from that day?

JG: Yes. It’s amazing how things happen.

Yes.

So, John, what was Roseworthy like to go to? Who were the people teaching up there, for instance?

JG: At Roseworthy we had Bob Baker, was the boss man. Oh, the boss above that was Mr Herriott, but Bob Baker was running the course. About the only other lecturer of note at that stage would have been Chris Weeks in chemistry. Top lecturer, too. Very good. And the rest of the lecturers I remember were the agriculture lecturers. They were always back at college then. If you came from outside the industry or less than two years experience—I’d come direct from high school—you had to do two years ag course to qualify for the wine course. So I did two years ag. Pretty damn boring. I used to read the books the night before the exam, and pass most subjects on about 51%. (Laughs) But as soon as I got to the wine course it was damn interesting.

And there was no alcohol on campus, was there? Is that right?

JG: That was the rules.

I’ve heard that story too, John. (Laughter)

JG: Our plonky course, we started with ten, and the course only started every two years, and five graduated. But I think in the two years we filled a 2,000 gallon rainwater tank with empties. Because it was okay to drink, provided you didn’t get caught. And not being caught meant hiding the evidence. So we used to sink the bottles into the rainwater tanks. It was pretty convenient really because if it was a warm day, the dairy wasn’t too far away, so we’d just tie a few strings around the necks of the bottles— because all long-necked beers back then, no stubbies. Just sit them in there for a couple of minutes and then you’d have a nice cold beer.

So beer would have been the main drink for most people of the time though, wouldn’t it?

JG: Back then, yes.

In the 60’s.

JG: And when they had the Balls there once a year, when the birds come on college, out with the—forget what we used to drink. Some sparkling wine.

So who were some of the fellows who did the course with you, John?

JG: Ones who graduated was Mark Babidge, who I think still works for Bondy.

He’s in Western Australia still. That’s Jack and Emmy’s son.

JG: That’s the one, yes. Who else was in there? Mr Philip Shaw and he hasn’t changed one bit. (Laughter) Still a bull at a gate, like he was back then. Ian Scarborough.

Don’t know Ian.

JG: Ian Scarborough was up in the Hunter. A good lad. Ian’s run his own business for years. Albert Chan, bless his soul. He’s a wonderful bloke. Who else have I forgotten? Brian Falkenberg. Worked with Kaiser Stuhl for years and then with Lindemans. Haven’t seen Brian for a while. Not too sure. He’s one of the casualties in the Southcorp turmoil. I think that’s five.

So, John, you would have worked a couple of vintages while you were at college. Is that right? Or three or four?

JG: 1969 vintage was my second year of the wine course—going into the second year—and that was a compulsory thing. You had to do a vintage. And John Vickery had given me a ring and asked if I’d like to do a vintage with him. And I said, ‘Yes, I’d like to’.

So was Vickery at Leo Burings?

JG: At Leo Buring, yes. In the meantime Wolf had moved to TST, as it was called, now called Tollana, and I hadn’t told him that I’d promised John Vickery, and Wolf just assumed that I’d be coming to TST. I said, ‘Look,

Wolfy, I’ve given my word to someone else. I can’t’. So Wolfy got pretty shitty about it. (Laughs) But I stuck by my word and did a vintage with John Vickery. That was a fantastic experience.

Tell me about that, John, because John Vickery’s an amazing fellow.

JG: The other guy that was there was Mos Kaesler. He was basically the winemaker there. No qualifications, but a great white winemaker in particular. I was an off-sider to him. And with Vickery, he expected his pound of flesh, and I gave it. They used to run two or three people running presses and unloading grapes. Halfway through vintage I’d changed all that. I’d shovel the grapes off myself, off the side tippers and the bins and everything, into the crusher and run two presses myself. (Laughs) So I worked. Because I’d been trained to work hard from loading bricks with my Dad. So I worked like hell. At the end of vintage Vickery wanted to give me ten dozen bottles of wine. I was being paid, too. I said, ‘John, it’s not necessary’. He reckoned that I was the best worker he’d ever had. And he worked it out that I averaged seventeen hours a day, seven days a week, for the eight week vintage. Got to the stage where I was wasting too much time eating and sleeping and travelling, so my Dad dropped a caravan up at the winery for me. (Laughs) I had a ball. Great experience.

John was a pretty hard taskmaster obviously.

JG: Yes.

What was his craft like?

JG: Very, very fussy boy. Absolutely meticulous. In both whites and reds. And I don’t think he’s changed much. He used to hate Wolfy coming around.

Did he?

JG: Oh! Wolf back then was a heavy smoker. Mainly cigars. And Wolf would wander into Vickery’s tasting with a cigar hanging out his gob. The more Vickery flustered around, the more Wolfy smoked. (Laughs) But they’re good mates, too. But Wolfy just used to do it to stir him.

So you kept contact with Wolf all through this time.

JG: Oh, yes, very much so. Because when I graduated I had three or four other jobs offered. But I knew Wolf was pretty keen so I accepted the job at TST.

What was TST like at the time, John? Look pretty much as it does now?

JG: Yes, I think it’s one of the great bloody pities of the industry. Because Wolfy’s job there was to turn that company from a fortified maker into a top table wine maker, which he did. No question. And I was Wolfy’s right- hand man. So we had all this wine in bottle, white and reds and everything across the board. Every single product that was made, the lowest award honour was silver medal. Most had golds and trophies. You know, like the TR17’s, 222’s and 16’s.

They were created in that era pretty much, weren’t they?

JG: Yes, I did them. And simple reason for the numbers. It just happened to be the number of the bottling, because the first red we bottled there was Tolleys Red number 1. And TR17 was a particular style, and 222. So those numbers remained. And we didn’t have a big selection of fruit back then. There wasn’t a lot of Barossa Valley fruit went into some of the wines, the early ones.

So what was it? Langhorne Creek stuff?

JG: A lot was river fruit.

Was it?

JG: Off company vineyards, yes. Some of the early ones. Low crop stuff, but damn good fruit.

So not over irrigated, in other words.

JG: No. That company probably had one of the best commercial line-ups of any group at the time. Because the main competitor then on red was DA Tolleys. Every tasting, DA Tolley would come up number one, and they were commercially very strong.

This is Tolleys at Hope Valley?

JG: Tolleys at Hope Valley, yes.

That’s Reg and David and that mob.

JG: Yes. And they were what we saw as our main competitor in terms of quality and style, and that’s what we used to match. Anyway, Wolfy left there in—when did Wolfy leave? Probably March ‘73.

He had some problems there, too. He mentioned that to me. There was a problem there, wasn’t there? He wasn’t allowed to make some -

JG: They tried to restrict Wolfy too much on how much he could make.

That’s right. He mentioned that.

JG: And he sort of told them where to go. There’s was a bit of friction there at one stage.

John, did you work on those labels, too, that were used on those bottles? Did Wytt Morro do those?

JG: Look, I’m not sure.

Because they became very well known.

JG: The Tollana ones?

Yes.

JG: They came out with the Tollana name, which certainly wasn’t one of my favourites, but anyway it was a label, a name. Because what happened, they had all these great wines and the wine press would come and see us. What could be give them that was labelled? A bottle of brandy. And Wolfy’s getting a bit upset about that. So he got a very good friend of his, Neil Tamke, to do a mock-up label. It was a black label. It had red TST across the top. And there were a few bits and pieces of wine— I used to play around with the TST. Wolfy was amazed by my blending abilities. And there’s one batch I did that Wolfy said, ‘Bottle it. We’ll use it’. It was two hogsheads I think. Sixty dozen. And that was bottled. It was a great wine called TR1 or TR2. One of those two. That was bottled, and that was to give to the press. You know, complimentary. Wolf had this label done up, TST, and he just had John’s Blend across it, just to show the press what was going to come out of TST when they found their name. The Board at the time rejected it. Wolfy said, ‘There, Glaetzer, keep that art work. You might use it one day’, which was the start of my own company, Johns’s Blend, which I started full time with—yes, probably illegally. I made my first vintage out at Wolf’s in 1974 when I was still at TST.

So you’ve got your own company, John, still making that John’s Blend?

JG: John’s Blend, yes.

Is that still going today?

JG: Yes. It’s quite big. Bigger company now. I export that all around the world.

So does that get distributed much in Australia?

JG: Most of the main liquor shops through Adelaide, Darwin, Alice Springs. And I’ve got it now in Ireland, UK, Germany, Switzerland, Singapore, Canada, New Zealand, USA. I think that’s it.

So John, where did this art of blending come in? Did Wolf help teach you that or was it just something that was innate for you?

JG: Oh, Wolfy certainly taught me how to do it. Most people think if you put two wines with an A rating together, you’re going to finish up with an A-plus. That’s totally wrong. Nine times out of ten if you put two wines with a B rating, you’ll get an A, if you know what you’re doing. And Wolf would not let me blend unless the blend was better than all the components put together. We’d play around for hours—days—weeks—to get things right.

Just small samples and -

JG: Yes. Small samples until we got it right.

And trying percentages?

JG: Yes.

Different types of oak with it as well?

JG: Different types of oak, different percentage of this wine and that wine. We spent hours on it.

He was talking to me and I remember quite clearly he said that you were after a style that was soft drinking.

JG: Yes.

Certain palates. He said that he had this idea that women should be able to drink it.

JG: Yes, that’s what we do. To be soft. I know with my own wine, I can go up to any female that doesn’t drink red, and I’ll have her loving red within ten minutes. Just soft.

Were there certain parts that you liked sourcing your grapes from, John? Or was there not a lot in it with that?

JG: Langhorne Creek’s certainly my favourite. Any wine you make from there is soft. And you’ve got heaps of flavour.

I can’t understand that because I agree with you entirely. Whatever comes from there is soft, no matter what. Like Potts’ stuff.

JG: Oh, beautiful stuff.

It’s just terrific.

JG: And if you want to make the real big heavy tannic things, if that’s your wish, you can do that from there as well.

It’s quite amazing what that soil around there produces.

JG: Oh, incredible.

It’s only the last few years really that the big companies like Orlando have recognised that.

JG: Orlando have only been in there five or six years. Ryecroft have been in there eleven years. Ryecroft’s probably the first to move in there in a big way, and then of course Orlando are huge. Just getting back to that TST bit. What happened there, they launched the Tollana name. Back then it was a huge budget to promote it and release it. They did it so well that it really started taking off, but after eighteen months they decided to squeeze the budget, and all it needed was probably another $100,000 promotion, and the right sales force. It was owned by UDL.

Yes, that’s right.

JG: Spirit people. And all spirit reps back then were paid commission, which is totally different to today. You know, selling a box of spirit, they made quite a few dollars. Then the same sales reps, they were trying to sell wine. They’d probably have to sell six or seven boxes of wine to get the same profit as a box of spirits. There’s no heart, no soul, in the sales force. So eventually the whole thing folded.

Those first Tollana Rieslings and reds were just crowd stoppers.

JG: Yes, they are as well.

Absolutely fantastic wines. I remember I was working as a student in bottle shops and they just had people coming in, buying by the dozen, who we’d never seen before. And they were very reasonably priced.

JG: Oh, yes.

Pitched at low/medium actually, I reckon, from memory.

JG: What’s the new in-thing with the marketing people? Over delivered, is the new term.

I haven’t heard that one.

JG: All that marketing talk is over deliver.

Under price, over deliver.

JG: Yes.

Oh, I see. So how long did you stay there for, John?

JG: I could see all this stock, and I could see they were losing the plot in the marketplace, and I was already making my own wine up out at Wolfy’s.

Bilyara had been built by this time, hadn’t it?

JG: Yes.

The chook sheds.

JG: Wolfy was out on the farm. Out in the shed. Used to call it Bilyara. I called it the chook shed. Used to paint little eagles on everything. All the barrels had eagles. Used to call it the home of the golden eagle. And that got shortened to the home of the golden chook. (Laughs) So it’s still called the chook farm. Wolfy used to hate it when I made speeches. I’d refer to the chook farm. After probably eighteen months/two years he was using the same term himself. (Laughs)

TAPE 1 - SIDE B

You were saying it was pretty hilarious, John, the beginnings of that chook shed.

JG: Yes, it was a little shed. The lady that built it was going to have a piggery in it, which never eventuated. Wolfy’s out there with his mates pouring concrete floors and that stuff. Planted a vineyard. It was supposed to be Shiraz. As it worked out the Shiraz vineyard I think was 40% Shiraz, 40% Mataro, 20% Cabernet, with the odd Sultana vine in it. (Laughter) I forget how much it was. Three acres, or something. That was the first stage. And then Margy used to go out and do his books for him—my wife, Margaretee.

Were you married by this time?

JG: Yes. We were married in ‘71. That was a bit of fun. Course, I spent half my time out there anyway with Wolfy because the UDL mob was getting up my nose a bit at that stage. You know, ‘74. So I resigned there in December ‘74 and started full time with Wolfy 1st February, ‘75, as a full time employee.

Now, have you got his first two Jimmy Watsons there?

JG: In ‘74 he won the first one, with the ‘73 vintage. So it was a big party. And then my job was getting ‘74 ready for the show of ‘75, which I did, and then it just flowed on from there.

It was a hat-trick, wasn’t it?

JG: Yes, three in a row.

So what did that do to the industry, for you?

JG: The company’s just released the ‘98 Black Label, the Jimmy Watson wine, from Wolf Blass. And we’ve done, what we call, the grand tour around the country. And there was one commentator, he asked me—he didn’t ask me before. I’m on stage and he said, ‘Glaetzer, why did it take so long from the first three Jimmy Watsons back in the 70’s to get the one in 1999 with ‘98 vintage. That’s 20 years plus’. I told him the true reason. That’s because of Wolfy. It must have been after the second or third Jimmy Watson—I can’t remember—we were staying at this little pub in Melbourne. Back then the society would let you know that you’d won it. So we’d been on the piss for about a week beforehand with parties every night, and French champagne, and just about destroyed each other. So we were staying at this—I can’t remember the name of it. It’s got the cricketers’ bar in it. Not the Oxford. Not that it matters. It was a very old pub and we didn’t have a lot of money—or the company. So it’s got two single beds in it, and we’d been out for dinner, and I don’t know what we drank. But, anyway, I woke up about five in the morning in the single bed and there’s someone in my bed. ‘Oh, Jesus, I wonder what that is’. I’m married. Can’t remember picking up any birds. So I went back to sleep, hoping it would go away. Next time I wake up, about half past six, sort of look over my shoulder and there’s someone in my bed. ‘Oh, no! What have I done?’ Roll over a bit further and there’s bloody Wolfy. (Laughter) He got up during the night and collapsed alongside. And exactly the same thing was going through his mind, ‘I wonder who I picked up?’ (Laughter) (sounds like, It went on) for bloody hours. And the speech I was giving for the launch of the Black Label, I said, ‘That’s a pretty good reason not to win it for twenty years, isn’t it?’ (Laughter) That was a true story. I reckon my stomach muscles still hurt to this day.

John, what’s the trend out at Bilyara—the chook shed—once you begin having success? How were you moving on with the winemaking? You were sourcing your grapes I know from Langhorne Creek still, quite a few of them.

JG: Yes, Langhorne Creek was still the main supply. It’s an amazing thing, the people in the Barossa, the growers, wouldn’t support us. We only had probably five or six growers back then, say the late 70’s. We just couldn’t get support from growers here. There was a certain amount of distrust. Don’t ask me why. We had plenty of support in Langhorne Creek with top growers, and McLaren Vale. At that stage we’d expanded a bit into Clare, and a few growers in Eden Valley. So it really wasn’t until the merger with Krondorf and Mildara in ‘86 that we had access to Barossa fruit. So really we’ve been reliant on Langhorne Creek for most of our supply.

‘86. Ray King.

JG: With Ray King, yes.

So just stopping for a minute on the push of the chook shed, John. I like that. Who were some of the people that you’d met along the way, some of the real characters of the industry other than Wolf.

JG: I’ve got to say Peter Lehmann and, of course, Dougie. Remember we didn’t crush any fruit on site. Because I believed it was a total waste of money when there’s an over-supply of crushing facilities everywhere. One vintage—which one was it? ‘89—I was crushing in nineteen locations at once. And no problem. I’d pick the fruit when it had to be picked and worry about when I was going to crush it after. And, of course, crushing at all these different locations, I used to get around quite a bit. Dougie Lehmann, he’d have to cut the top of the characters. We had a couple of really good growers from Angle Vale. They had good Chardonnay, good Riesling and top Cabernet. Italian owners, of course. And I’d been down to Langhorne Creek or somewhere and Doug has crushed three different growers. Doug Lehmann was manager/winemaker at Basedows at the time. We used to crush about three or four hundred ton there, which back then was significant. Anyway, I got back at four o’clock in the afternoon and I said to Dougie, ‘How much did this grower bring in? That one, and that one?’ We got the

weighbridge dockets, which he handed to me. He said, ‘I don’t know what their fucking names were’. He’s got Wog A, Wog B, Wog C. (Laughter)

That’s Doug’s way of doing -

JG: That was Dougie. (Laughs) I worked it out because I knew who had the bigger tonnage. But he was an absolute character. Who else have we got? Oh, the Bleasdale people. They’ve always been a lot of fun. Got a crush down there, too. Michael Potts. And the one before him—John—he was a great bloke.

John Scutchings, was it?

JG: No, John Potts.

Oh, John Potts. Yes, his father.

JG: Big fellow.

Yes.

JG: He was a lot of fun.

Len, you would have known probably—the grower. Diddy’s son.

JG: Len?

Len Potts.

JG: Oh, used to go fishing with Len all the time. I’ve got my own vineyard at Langhorne Creek as well. I’ve got 80 acres, 50/50 with Bill Potts, who is Len’s son.

Yes, I know Len well.

JG: Where the hell’s he at the moment? Lake somewhere, up north.

He’s gone, has he?

JG: Yes. Gone walkabout.

He had a crook ulcer on his leg or something a couple of weeks ago.

JG: The week before he behaved so he could go on this bloody trip up north.

For ten days he did.

JG: Yes.

So, John, you’re making contacts all over the place, and you’re crushing everywhere. How’s it all working together? Do you just pull it all in and blend it? Is that the idea?

JG: The main thing, of course, is vineyards. If I get the vineyard right, and picked right, the job’s done. The rest I reckon is a breeze. Other winemakers at the time knew exactly what I wanted. If I wanted my red ferments chilled down to a certain temperature, they’d do it better than I could do it. I’d organise tankers to come in and pick it up as soon as it was pressed, come back to the chook farm, settle overnight, because it would still be fermenting and still sweet—I’m talking red—and then whack it into brand new oak the next morning. The things have not changed one iota from day one to what I’m doing today.

So still running the same?

JG: Exactly. Even with the new fifty million dollar crushing plant—oh, let’s say thirty million. That’s what the books are supposed to say, but I reckon it cost fifty. I treat that in my own mind as a contract facility for what I want to do, because where I operate from is a separate area to that, with other winemaking people. So nothing’s changed. I spend three-quarters of my time during vintage in the vineyards.

Have you always done that, John?

JG: Yes.

Because today that’s expected but it wasn’t when you started, was it?

JG: Wolfy, when he used to go to the Creek to pick his fruit out, he’d chew a bunch on the end vine, and say, ‘Oh, yes, pick it’. (Laughs) Things have changed. It was April ‘75, Wolfy got banned from the cellar. That vintage

we’d crushed our fruit up in Jim Barry’s in Clare. So we’d cart fruit from Langhorne Creek up to Clare. I’d duck up there at five in the morning, unload it by hand. If I had other ferments running, I’d run them off, press them. Had a ute with a pumps hose and everything. I’d load the tanker up there, throw everything back on the ute, go like hell back to the Barossa to beat the semi back to unload it. This particular day I was loading two trucks, and Wolfy’s back at the winery and, yes, while he was cooking he’d unload it. I get back a little bit later, and Wolfy’s unloaded it alright. He unloaded it into a 8,000 gallon tank but he didn’t realise that it had 4,000 gallons of Port in the bottom. So Wolfy got banned from the cellar after that. (Laughter) Forbidden.

So was he still making at that point?

JG: Yes, back then with all the blends of course. Then I started the Riesling thing, and it took Wolfy a few years to work out what I was doing. This is off the record but -

(Tape restarted)

So, John, that’s the story of the Riesling.

JG: The Riesling we had through the help of my mates in there. And then got to the change, with sales people in particular, they could see what was going through that bottling line, our label versus theirs, and of course they’re out to make a sale, saying it’s the same stuff. So in ‘79 we had to change it all, and that’s when we invested in vineyards in Clare. Wolfy bought land at Sevenhill, Polish Hill River, in ‘79. I’d been away on holidays—overseas. First trip ever. I get off the plane and Wolfy said, ‘Glaetzer, there’s land up in Clare. Plant it’. I went and had a look and saw it and I thought, ‘Jesus, what have you done, Wolfy?’ Sure, I had some viticultural background but not running an eighty acre vineyard. So anyway, made lots of phone calls, lots of friends out there on the end of the phones, and got a vineyard planted, and bloody successful. In fact, I think it was the most—what do they call it? The viti people call it EBIT—

earning before interest and tax. Several years ago it was the most profitable vineyard that I ever grew.

You’ve got the position, haven’t you, John?

JG: Yes. That used to take up a bit of time. I used to spend one or two days a week up there. In the meantime, in ‘75, I set up the Australian Bottling Company, without Wolfy’s knowledge. The Hunt family owned land at McLaren Vale -

Yes, I know the Hunts.

JG: - and Morris was good enough to build a shed. And we bought the bottling line from Waikerie Co-op at the time. So it cost Wolfy thirty-three grand. That was the total investment, which I didn’t tell him about, to run a full scale bottling line. At that stage we were bottling at Ryecroft—clean skin—and then bringing it up to the Barossa and labelling. They went out of business—Ryecroft’s bottling line. And bottling lines were getting scarce. So I started that, and then Wolfy found out about it and was quite happy. As it turned out we now own the total complex.

Is that right?

JG: Because we bought—who is it? Vinpak line fifteen years ago. Eighteen years ago? Joint venture with Seagram. And then combined the Australian Bottling Company with that. In the meantime, Cellarmasters bought more shares into it, and four years ago we bought Cellarmaster. So now Vinpak is all part of the same Fosters group.

Has that been one of the big changes, John—just for a moment looking at the overview—the coming in of the very, very large players and the difference in scale?

JG: It certainly made changes, but me personally, yes, I’ve got other bosses but I never take too much notice of all that type of stuff. I enjoy making wine. I stay out of the politics, and really from where I’m coming from, nothing has really changed too much. They leave me alone. Of

course, with all the takeovers I’ve certainly had opportunities of becoming chief winemaker and all those things, and I’ve said time and time again that I don’t want to be changing nappies of other winemakers. And even if it’s lower salary, or whatever, I’m happy making wine without having to attend meetings and all the bullshit associated with running a business.

So, John, who were some of the fellows and people that you’ve brought up through the ranks yourself who you feel have really got some opportunity now?

JG: Well, Doug Wardlaw was one. I pinched him from Kaiser Stuhl. Steven John. I pinched him from Seppelts. And both these guys were selected because of their exceptionally good palates. I’ve been judging in Australia since ‘78, and I’ve judged with both these guys, and we sort of picked them because of that. Wardlaw’s slightly different because he was a great help to me at Kaiser Stuhl days. Another one was Chris Hatcher. Our white wine sales, while they were booming, it’s pretty important to get the best white winemaker in Australia, and Chris Hatcher was the one who worked for Orlando. So we stole him, and he’s actually my boss today. And people say, ‘Gee, it’s a funny system’, but I was a director of Wolf Blass wines. I was made a director when I was twenty-eight years old, and was a director for many, many years. And my philosophy of getting Wolf Blass up and running was that if you employ anyone, employ someone who can shit over what you’re doing. If you do that, you improve the breed and you’ve got to gain strength in the company. Never employ a lackey that’s going to maybe take your job one day. I’ve got a different attitude. By employing people better than yourself, I think you gain a hell of a strength. And I reckon I’ve proven that with Hatcher. He’s now the chief winemaker, doing a top job. So they were three that come to mind quickly.

So, John, has it helped you, too, having your own interests outside, to be able to keep that challenge going?

JG: Oh, very much so. With Wolfy and his help with John’s Blend. Wolfy said from day one, ‘You’ve got to have your own interest—your own

company’. It’s been fantastic for me because, apart from making wine, I can see the real costs involved and how to make profit. I work a little bit different to most people. I work on 100% profit, where I think you’ll find the bigger companies probably work closer to 16%. I think I know how to run a business successfully. In fact I do.

That’s something that not all winemakers have, isn’t it? The commercial side. Some do.

JG: Yes, I find it very frustrating with some of our winemakers within the group. They’re totally non realistic when it comes to just basic commonsense in running a business. All they want to do is make wine that gives them the great glory etc etc without thinking or worrying about the bread and butter. Bread and butter’s the important bit. So it’s been terrific. Although Wolfy, back in the early days, really screwed me on price. I really didn’t make a lot of money out of it.

This is John’s Blend?

JG: John’s Blend, yes. But in recent years I’ve started another company called Margarete’s Shiraz, which is totally independent of the whole group, and that’s running along very nicely. That’s the company owned by my wife.

So you’ve got two businesses. One is the John’s Blend business -

JG: They’re both called John’s Blend. One’s a Cabernet, and the other one’s called Margarete’s Shiraz. But they’ve been around for a long time.

How do you source your grapes for those? Is that all your contacts or is it your own grapes?

JG: Way back when I started John’s Blend at Wolfy’s, I had my own grapes and my own wood. At stocktakes it got messy. It was awkward. So probably in the last fifteen or twenty years I’ve basically had access to any barrels that I wanted, of what I wanted. With Wolfy’s permission, I could take, as I say, eight barrels or sixteen barrels. And then Wolf would

charge me accordingly. And that still happens today with the John’s Blend Cabernet. I pick out what I want. I’ve got 28,000 to choose from.

Not bad!

JG: And I just pull the wine out and bottle it, and they invoice me accordingly. Like bloody wounded bulls for the last lot.

That’s the way of it though, isn’t it?

JG: Yes.

Do you market yourself, John?

JG: Yes. Do it all myself. Which is a hell of a lot of fun. Some of the agents I’m using also sell Wolf Blass, and others don’t. It’s a great way to get around the world, particularly the last trip I did to Ireland a few months ago. Our eldest daughter lives in Zurich, so it’s good to get across there. I also sell a lot of wine in Switzerland. My daughter’s husband speaks seven languages fluently. So when I’m doing dinners in Switzerland and I’m guest speaker, sometimes I might have three or four different languages to get throughout there, so I’d say it in English, speak for fifteen seconds, and my son-in-law just goes off in the different languages.

That’s handy.

JG: Yes. Good fun.

Great asset. (Laughter) Great family asset. Ireland’s another world though, John, isn’t it?

JG: I’ll never forget when I got there. A bloke said, ‘Well, Glaetzer, tomorrow morning by nine o’clock you should have two pints of Guinness and wait twenty minutes’. I could understand the two pints and I said, ‘Why the hell do you have to wait twenty minutes?’ He said, ‘You’ve got to swallow it properly. Then you can understand what we’re saying’. And he said, ‘After that swallow another two pints of Guinness’. I said, ‘Why

another two?’ He said, ‘Then you can fucking talk like us’. (Laughter) So that was my start of ten days in Ireland. Beautiful country.

Yes, it is a beautiful country. John, what are the biggest changes you’ve seen over your time in the industry? Perhaps technologically would be one side.

JG: I think the fruit’s getting better. I think our viticultural people are really starting to get it right. And I’m talking all areas, too. The old days of relationship with tons and optimum material and all that, I don’t think we really understood. The huge difference in the industry took place I reckon probably in that region ‘72/73 through to ‘78, because in the early 70’s there were huge problems with wines out of condition because of bacterial spoilage. Because, quite simply, a few people understood the importance of pH but no-one really did anything about it. I remember re- bottling wines of other company’s stuff that had white hazes in it. It was just all bacterial spoilage. In ‘73, I know I started really working hard at TST on it, on adjusting pH, which means you had to add more acid at the crusher. I reckon by the early 80’s/mid 80’s, most winemakers understood that if the pH isn’t right, fix it. And now I only adjust pH once and it’s at the crusher , this means the wine is spot on from day one. And most other companies do it. I think it’s a big advantage we’ve got over the Yanks at the moment, seeing the Yanks are part of our company, but bad luck. They’re still running on what I believe is dangerously high pH. They’re making wines with .....myces character. They call it bret in short...... myces is a spoilage yeast. Bacteria.

Yes, I’m with you now.

JG: And most of the American wines you taste has got that character, which I think is terrific for us. And I probably see five or six cases a year in Australian wines, so Australians understand it, the importance of pH control. That’s the biggest single factor I think.

That’s been there in the science (sounds like, wine year) since the early 50’s, hasn’t it? People like Fornachon were talking -

JG: Yes, Fornachon was absolutely spot-on.

Alec Hickinbotham at Roseworthy.

JG: Yes, he was spot-on. Who’s the other one? Bryce Rankine. That was the annoying thing, everyone knew about it, but it never seemed to get applied correctly. You know, people were adjusting pH too late. They’re now getting it right at the crusher. You know, as soon as the grapes are picked. Most companies are doing it. So that’s the biggest single change I’ve noticed—viticulture’s got better. Obviously we got out of the rotten concrete tank syndrome several years ago. We’re now in stainless steel, which helps. And the other thing I think with most companies, particularly the bigger ones, is the training of their cellar staff. I worked with our group with the enterprise bargaining department, and I fought for years and years to try and increase the wages of our cellar people because they were paid an absolute pittance in my opinion several years ago. So I thought that there’s only one way, they’ve got to have letters or something behind their names, so that means they’ve got to have training. And that’s when the TAFE colleges set up, and I was a big way behind that. I’ve been a lecturer for many years. So I thought if these guys have got a qualification we can put them up ladders, and that’s what’s happened in the whole industry. The quality of these people—they’re good. Ten years ago I could go out and pump wine from A to B, and now if I tried, under the new regime, I wouldn’t have a hope. They are just so particular with their gas covers and just general cellar practice. I think it’s something that’s overlooked many times—the value of the people.

You really wouldn’t have an ongoing relationship with the wine without the good cellar staff, would you?

JG: No. But unfortunately the cellar staff get overlooked. But they’re really trained, and to get from grade four to grade five, they really fight for

those positions and fight for the chance to get trained. And the TAFE has been terrific with that.

So education’s playing a crucial role in all this, John?

JG: Oh, no question. At all levels. The only ones that annoy me at the moment are probably engineers because they should be trained winemakers I think sometimes. If you want something stuffed up, ask an engineer.

We won’t get sidetracked. (Laughter) We won’t get sidetracked.

JG: You can quote me on that.

Have you been really pleased with the way that export’s gone the last decade, John?

JG: Absolutely amazing. Wolfy’s been exporting for years and years, as the whole industry. But what we tried to do fifteen years ago, we’d send basically one of our marketing people overseas to shake a few hands and do some deals, but nothing was ever supported. We never had any banners, we never had any promotional material, and things like tasting were unheard of. You know, making people go over there with no stock. And then we’d set up a deal with one mob, and then ten minutes later, ‘Oh, we don’t think they’re any good’, and get rid of them. I’m talking from our company’s point of view. But I think the whole industry were doing the same thing. It was never professionally done. Then we’ve got people like Orlando, probably one of the first to put their own people overseas, so they’re talking our language. We’ve got people like Hazel Murphy in the UK. Done a fantastic job. And that’s where it started I think, the UK really, to get the professional attitude. And now we’ve got—forget the Berringer part of our business. Before that I think we probably had thirty or forty people, all professionals overseas representing our products. And the whole industry’s done that. Got to have people. And our wines got better, too. There’s no question. And I

think Mr Public overseas appreciates the quality and the price points of Australian wine, regardless of area.

There’s no doubt about that.

JG: Look at Jacob’s Creek. It would have to be the best value wine on the market anywhere in the world. I know it’s an opposition company, but it’s not really because it’s Australian wine.

OH 692/46 TAPE 2 - SIDE A

NATIONAL WINE CENTRE, WOLF BLASS FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT. Interview with John Glaetzer on 26th August, 2002. Interviewer: Rob Linn.

So, John, you’ve talked about improvements in the vineyard, the improvements in cellar staff and the export sales going because of the great value for money. Where can you see things heading now for Australian wine and your own part in it?

JG: If you look at the figures like right at this instant—I was doing some numbers with Wolfy the other day—it does look scary. If the sales do flatten we can be faced—I think Wolfy had 160million dozen worth of wine, which is a huge amount. It is concerning but there’s not going to be a lot of red vineyard planted, say, over the next two or three years. And I think all we’ve got at the moment is a bit of a blip in the system where vineyards are being planted a little bit too soon, to match the growth rate. So, yes, there’s going to be a surplus for a couple of years. And, yes, it’s going to knock some of the lesser vineyards out of the system. The hot area climate vineyards I think will go, as will other vineyards that haven’t got any contracts. They’re going to disappear. So in the short term it’s all a bit bleak, but that will rebound again in another three years/four years. Exactly the same thing has happened with Chardonnay. Two years ago there were millions and millions of litres of Chardonnay surplus on our market in Australia. And what’s happened today? I don’t know what the figure is. It’s probably five, six, seven million litres shortfall. So the companies are out there trying to get growers to graft reds over to Chardonnay. It’s a little bit of a mismatch because people thought Chardonnay would flatten too, but it hasn’t.

No, that’s interesting, isn’t it, that one.

JG: Yes. Chardonnay’s still going through the roof.

Yes. Again, Phil told me that, that in England they just cannot believe the demand for Australian Chardonnay.

JG: It’s good product. Provided they keep malolactic flavours out of it— you know, the overdone characters—and keep it on fruit flavours, not too much oak, they’re going to continue to strive, with competition with Chile, Argentina. I don’t know what the revolt with their finances has done in that country. But while they continue to crop it far in excess, they’ll never have the quality to match us. They’ll have the price but not the quality.

So you can see the qualities driving Australia then, John?

JG: Oh, no question. As soon as anyone drops in this country I think we’re in for a big shock. But, you know, with the big companies, I reckon most of them have got their eye on the ball. It’s quality all over. There’s going to be a blip in the short term. There’s no question. There is a surplus of red at the moment, which I’m sure we’d be sitting at the same table here in a couple of years time and saying, ‘Gee, we should have started planting vineyards back in 2002 again’. Because that has happened with Chardonnay.

It’s funny, looking back over the history of the wine industry, it’s still in a way the same cycles. I remember Tom Angove saying to me once, ‘I’ve seen four cycles in my lifetime. They’re just different types of cycles now, aren’t they?

JG: It used to be every five years, and now I think it’s getting closer to— see, the boom prices on grapes have been going since ‘91/92. This last cycle’s been probably ten years. 2002 vintage was probably the first reasonable relaxation of prices for grapes.

John, for you looking back over your life in the wine industry, what’s been the thing that’s kept you going all the time?

JG: I think success. Once you have a taste of it, of winning medals and trophies, it never gets out of your blood. And that’s something that Wolfy

taught me. Success brings success. I don’t think I’m crazy or anything like that. I like other people to win but if I’m not winning I get shitty. (Laughs) And I think winning medals and trophies and all that, it’s like the nature of Australian wine shows. The main objective I believe as a judge, it’s there to improve the breed. A lot of other commentators will say, ‘No, it’s not. It’s there for promotional purpose’. But when I’m judging I couldn’t care less about the promotional value of it, it’s improving the breed. I think that’s the all important bit.

Yes, something I should ask you as an aside, are some of the new varietal grapes and the smaller wineries introducing the single grape styles, is that producing some very interesting wines that haven’t been around before?

JG: They are interesting. I really don’t think we’re going to get too far away from Riesling, Chardonnay, Semillon as the whites. The Pinot Gris I’ve seen are pretty smart, some of them. And there’s certainly a spot on the market for them, but I don’t think they’ll ever replace what’s there. There’s a certain segment there for them. Some of the red, the new varieties in reds, the ones I’ve tasted recently are pretty damn awful, but I think we’ve got to give them a chance. I know our company’s keen but it’s more—when you say keen, I think at the end of the day it’s more a marketing driven force rather than a wine quality thing.

Well, John, thanks very much for talking with me today. Is there anything else that you’d like to say to sort of round off the interview? Anything that occurs to you that I might have missed, which wouldn‘t be unusual.

JG: Really it’s back to I think Wolfy’s and my Dad’s friendship from early days. They started probably Colin, my brother, off as well. That was another interesting bit—there was one done on Channel 2 some time ago. It happens that my identical twin brother’s got three boys, and I’ve got two girls, and I tend to believe that being an identical twin is one egg split so I can only produce females, but I haven’t had the opportunity to prove that wrong. (Laughter) Colin’s three boys, his eldest works for me as my off-

sider. His wife is a senior white winemaker for Wolf Blass—Kirsty. Ben, Colin’s second, who’s a qualified winemaker, works full time for Colin and a few other companies. His wife is also a winemaker. And the third lad, Nick, would make a good winemaker one day if he gets off his bloody arse and studies. But he’s not married yet. But that article was that there’s so many Glaetzers in the industry. I forget what it was, it was one of the Channel 2 programmes. Nationwide or State Affair or one of those things. Anyway, in an interview Sam was asked—that’s Colin’s eldest—‘Of the whole family, who makes the better wine?’ And right at the end of the programme, the interviewer said to Sam, ‘Well, who does make the better wine, Colin or John?’ Put Sam in a spot. And quick as a flash Sam said, ‘It depends on whom I’m drinking with at the time’. (Laughter)

Very good. Well, thanks, John.

JG: It was good.