LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2517
OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Wednesday, 28 November 2012
The Council met at Eleven o'clock
MEMBERS PRESENT:
THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE JASPER TSANG YOK-SING, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT HO CHUN-YAN
THE HONOURABLE LEE CHEUK-YAN
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KAM-LAM, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG
DR THE HONOURABLE LAU WONG-FAT, G.B.M., G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE EMILY LAU WAI-HING, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TAM YIU-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE FREDERICK FUNG KIN-KEE, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE VINCENT FANG KANG, S.B.S., J.P. 2518 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-HING, M.H.
DR THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE RONNY TONG KA-WAH, S.C.
THE HONOURABLE CYD HO SAU-LAN
THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LAM TAI-FAI, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, B.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KA-LAU
THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-CHE
THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, B.B.S.
THE HONOURABLE IP KWOK-HIM, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE ALAN LEONG KAH-KIT, S.C.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG KWOK-HUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALBERT CHAN WAI-YIP LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2519
THE HONOURABLE WONG YUK-MAN
THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO
THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE JAMES TIEN PEI-CHUN, G.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE NG LEUNG-SING, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN
THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING
THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H.
THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING
THE HONOURABLE GARY FAN KWOK-WAI
THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK
THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN
THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN
DR THE HONOURABLE KENNETH CHAN KA-LOK
THE HONOURABLE CHAN YUEN-HAN, S.B.S., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG
THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI
THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG 2520 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG
THE HONOURABLE SIN CHUNG-KAI, S.B.S., J.P.
DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN
THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN
DR THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, J.P.
THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H.
THE HONOURABLE TANG KA-PIU
DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, J.P.
IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN
THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHUNG SHU-KUN, B.B.S., M.H., J.P.
THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN
PUBLIC OFFICERS ATTENDING:
THE HONOURABLE MRS CARRIE LAM CHENG YUET-NGOR, G.B.S., J.P. THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION
THE HONOURABLE JOHN TSANG CHUN-WAH, G.B.M., J.P. THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY
MR YAU SHING-MU, J.P. SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2521
THE HONOURABLE TSANG TAK-SING, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS
THE HONOURABLE MATTHEW CHEUNG KIN-CHUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE
THE HONOURABLE GREGORY SO KAM-LEUNG, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
THE HONOURABLE RAYMOND TAM CHI-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS
MR JOHN LEE KA-CHIU, P.D.S.M., P.M.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR SECURITY
THE HONOURABLE EDDIE NG HAK-KIM, S.B.S., J.P. SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION
THE HONOURABLE WONG KAM-SING, J.P. SECRETARY FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE:
MR KENNETH CHEN WEI-ON, S.B.S., SECRETARY GENERAL
MRS JUSTINA LAM CHENG BO-LING, DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL
MISS FLORA TAI YIN-PING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MISS ODELIA LEUNG HING-YEE, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
MRS PERCY MA, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL
2522 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Clerk, please ring the bell to summon Members to the Chamber.
(After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members entered the Chamber).
TABLING OF PAPERS
The following papers were laid on the table under Rule 21(2) of the Rules of Procedure:
Subsidiary Legislation/Instrument L.N. No.
Competition Ordinance (Commencement) Notice 2012 ... 177/2012
Other Papers
No. 28 ─ Estate Agents Authority Annual Report 2011/12
No. 29 ─ Annual Report 2011 to the Chief Executive by the Commissioner on Interception of Communications and Surveillance (together with a statement under section 49(4) of the Interception of Communications and Surveillance Ordinance)
Report No. 5/12-13 of the House Committee on Consideration of Subsidiary Legislation and Other Instruments
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Questions. First question.
Work of Central Policy Unit
1. MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): The Head of the Central Policy Unit (CPU) has reportedly said in a recent television interview that, in future, the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2523
CPU will deploy more resources and manpower to closely attend to messages posted on social networking websites and discussion forums on the Internet. In addition, the CPU has been assigned a new duty of identifying talents for hundreds of advisory bodies and committees. It has also been reported that some Administrative Officers have recently been informed that all appointments to public offices of important statutory and advisory bodies are required to be reported to a newly appointed full-time member of the CPU. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the resources and manpower that the CPU will deploy in the next five years for monitoring the opinions on public affairs expressed by members of the public on social networking websites and discussion forums on the Internet; whether it will recruit additional manpower to post comments on these social networking websites and discussion forums; if it will, of the additional manpower to be recruited;
(b) whether various Policy Bureaux were previously required to report to CPU members appointments to the public offices of statutory and advisory bodies; of the total number of candidates for appointment to public offices which have been reported by various Policy Bureaux since the implementation of the measure, and whether the CPU member concerned has raised objection to any of these candidates; if objections have been raised, whether the candidates concerned have been appointed eventually; and
(c) whether it has assessed if the CPU's new function concerning appointments to public offices of statutory and advisory bodies will undermine the power of Policy Bureaux in appointing members of the community to public offices; if the assessment outcome is in the affirmative, of the details; if the assessment outcome is in the negative, the reasons for that?
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): President, the principal function of the CPU is to provide advice to top government officials, that is, the Chief Executive, the Chief Secretary for Administration, and the Financial Secretary. It is a think tank in nature. Apart from conducting policy research and drafting the Chief Executive's annual Policy Address, the CPU also 2524 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 examines major policy issues in depth, analyses and assesses community concerns and public opinions, and encourages community discussion on public policy through the appointment of Part-Time Members. In recent years, the CPU has also been tasked with providing secretariat support for the Commission on Strategic Development.
My reply to the three-part question is as follows:
(a) Analysing and assessing community concerns and public opinions is a major area of work of the CPU. The CPU has been gauging public sentiment through different channels, such as its Part-time Members, community networks, newspapers and magazines, electronic media, regular opinion surveys, and so on.
Online media has become increasingly popular in recent years, in particular among the younger generation. The public no longer express their views just through the traditional media. To keep up with the times, the CPU needs to extend its channels for collecting, assessing and analysing public opinions to online media to gain a better grasp of community sentiment and views. The CPU has recently deployed one to two existing staff members to collect online opinions. They will not post any views or comments on social networking websites or discussion forums.
(b) The Administration has not required Policy Bureaux to report to a Member of the CPU before the appointment of members to advisory and statutory bodies. Neither has it empowered or entrusted the CPU to approve, decide on or veto the appointments of candidates nominated by Policy Bureaux.
The advisory and statutory bodies of the SAR Government form an integral part of our political system and play an important role in supporting the Administration's work. They also provide a key channel for people with aspiration to serve the community. By appointing people from different background to these advisory and statutory bodies, the Administration can enhance its links and mutual understanding with various sectors. It also helps the Administration feel the pulse of the community and gauge the views of people from different sectors and professions. Policy LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2525 formulation and implementation can then better reflect the views of the community.
The Chief Executive has made it clear that the principles governing the appointment of non-official members to advisory and statutory bodies remain unchanged. Appointments will continue to be based on merits. All along, the chairpersons and members of major advisory and statutory bodies have been appointed in accordance with the relevant legislation or administrative procedures. Policy Bureaux will continue to be responsible for the appointment procedures for the advisory and statutory bodies under their purview and draw up lists of candidates for consideration by the appointing authorities.
Over the years, the CPU has appointed hundreds of Part-time Members, forming a rich pool of talents. From time to time, the CPU has recommended talents to the Chief Executive, the Chief Secretary for Administration and the Financial Secretary directly. The current-term Government considers it necessary to nurture more people who aspire to serve the community and to participate in public policy formulation. The CPU will strengthen its policy research in this area and will provide more systematic advice to the top echelon of the government on candidates suitable for appointment. To this end, the Administration has informed Policy Bureaux that they may consult the CPU when preparing their lists of candidates for appointment to major bodies or committees.
Specifically, the CPU will give advice to Policy Bureaux when the latter are preparing lists of candidates for consideration by the appointing authorities (such as the Chief Executive). Such advisory service, being more systematic than before, will avoid the appointment of the same candidate to different bodies when he or she is nominated concurrently by different bureaux. It will also help bring in more talents from different sectors.
I must stress that the CPU only gives advice or recommends potential candidates. It is up to the Directors of Bureaux and the relevant civil servants of the bureaux concerned to decide if the 2526 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
advice or potential candidates should be accepted. The bureaux are still responsible for the appointment procedures and preparation of the final candidate lists. Appointment decisions rest with the appointing authorities. The CPU does not have the authority to approve or veto appointments.
(c) The CPU only plays an advisory role. Since it has no authority to approve or veto appointments, it definitely will not undermine the role and authority of Policy Bureaux in nominating or appointing members of the community to advisory and statutory bodies.
MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): President, SHIU Sin-por, Head of the CPU has publicly stated that the CPU is a tool of the Government. Four months after he became Head of the CPU, six persons, one third of the whole research team, have been "kicked out". Three of them are senior researchers, among them, one did not have his contract renewed upon expiry, one had his contract resolved before expiry, and one was dismissed soon after signing the contracts. Therefore, the CPU has been dubbed a "factory of LEUNG's fans", and even the Central Propaganda Department of the SAR.
President, I now ask the Chief Secretary if it is true that the CPU staff members have been dismissed or have their contracts not renewed because they are not willing to support SHIU Sin-por or the Chief Executive, LEUNG Chun-ying, and are not willing to be a political tool at the Government's command. Will this act of getting rid of opponents undermine the political neutrality of the Civil Service, as well as disrupting the long-standing functions of the CPU in conducting studies on policies and gauging public opinion in an independent and objective manner? If the Chief Secretary's reply is in the negative, why so many staff members have been dismissed?
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): I wish to point out that there are 25 non-civil service contract (NCSC) posts under the existing establishment of the CPU. Concerning the appointment of persons to fill these posts, the CPU can independently deal with the appointment and departure upon contract expiry of its contract staff.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2527
According to the information I have, there were 16 NCSC posts before 1 July 2012, that is, before Mr SHIU Sin-por became Head of the CPU. (Appendix 1) Owing to work requirements, six additional NCSC posts were created after 1 July with the approval of the Civil Service Bureau. After 1 July, five NCSC staff members had left or would leave office, including a Chief Research Officer who had already left upon contract expiry; two senior Research Officers, one of them had already left upon contract termination and the other will leave upon contract termination on 1 January next year; a Research Officer who will leave upon contract termination on 1 January next year, as well as a Research Assistant who had already left upon contract expiry. As I have just said, the recruitment and other arrangements of these NCSC posts are made by the CPU.
I can tell Mr HO, as I have just mentioned, in appointing persons to become members of statutory or advisory bodies, or to work in the Government, the Government's principle is to make appointments based on merits.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): The Chief Secretary has not answered a specific part of my supplementary question.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MR ALBERT HO (in Cantonese): Why have so many staff members been "kicked out"?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): I have just given some figures. In fact, the recruitment process for the vacancies is now underway. It is really a matter of opinion as to whether a large number of staff 2528 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 members have been dismissed. Among the staff members I have just mentioned, some had left office upon contract expiry, and I cannot speculate here the real reason for termination of contracts.
In short, as I have said, the Head of the CPU has the power of recruitment and appointment under the present system.
MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): I wish to ask two questions. The first question is ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MA, each Member can only ask one supplementary question. If you wish to ask another question, please queue up again.
MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): OK. About the newly appointed member of the CPU responsible for assisting in appointing members to public offices of advisory bodies, given that members of many advisory bodies are appointed by the Chief Executive, I would like to know why the Government has not considered appointing an additional officer to the Chief Executive's Office to specifically assist the Chief Executive in handling the relevant matter? Are there any special considerations? If appointments are directly handled by the Chief Executive's Office, it may help to alleviate public concern.
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): Regarding Mr MA's concern about the newly appointed full-time adviser of the CPU, the CPU has stated in a paper submitted earlier to the Panel on Public Service of the Legislative Council that the Government will strengthen its work in a number of areas, including cultivation of talents. For this reason, I highlighted at the special meeting of the House Committee last week that the work of this full-time adviser was not merely to recommend candidates or give advice to Policy Bureaux for their consideration when appointing members to some statutory or advisory bodies. The adviser should also be responsible for cultivating and building a reserve of talents, or inviting the wider participation of people from all walks of life in policy studies for the formulation of government policies, as LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2529 stated in the paper submitted by the CPU to the Panel. The provision of more systematic advice to Policy Bureaux on candidates suitable for appointment is just one of the functions of the adviser.
MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): Chief Secretary, is the power of appointment and dismissal of the Head of the CPU solely exercised by the Chief Executive, or do the Chief Secretary for Administration and the Financial Secretary also have a part to play?
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): The answer is the Chief Executive.
MS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): President, I would like to ask the Chief Secretary a question about Internet patrol. As the Chief Secretary has mentioned in her main reply, the authorities have deployed two staff members to collect online opinions. We are really worried that the authorities may follow the practice of the Mainland. President, you know better than me that there are probably 100 000 or more Internet policemen on the Mainland responsible for Internet patrol.
If the authorities would like to listen to views, we welcome the act of listening more through various channels, for we think the authorities have not done enough. Now that the Government has deployed staff members to work as Internet policemen, we are very worried that our remarks made would be monitored. Can the Chief Secretary clarify the functions of these staff members?
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): Ms LAU does not need to worry because we uphold freedom and freedom of expression in Hong Kong. I reiterate that the CPU's work in this regard is purely intended to keep up with the times. There are a number of merging media today, if the Government wants to get a better grasp of public sentiment and views, it cannot ignore the views expressed by people through these media.
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I reiterate again that the CPU's work in this connection includes broadening the collection, understanding and analysis of views expressed by the public through online media. The CPU's staff members will not express opinions or make comments through these media.
MS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): Can the Chief Secretary tell us more about the work of these two staff members? The Chief Secretary has just stated what they will not do, but what exactly they will do? How will they collect views? How will the views collected be used? I hope the Chief Secretary would explain clearly.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary has already given an answer. I will see if she has anything to add.
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): Perhaps I can specifically expound on these points. I have also read the analysis of these views collected from online media. In simple terms, after the collection and analysis of views, the CPU will inform various Directors of Bureaux or top government officials, including the Secretaries of Departments, what hot issues have recently been touted in the media, and the views expressed by the public.
MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): President, if the proper duty of the CPU is to serve as the think tank of the Chief Executive, the Chief Secretary for Administration and the Financial Secretary, it is not its proper duty to cultivate and build a reserve of talents as mentioned by the Chief Secretary.
The last sentence in the third last paragraph in part (b) of the main reply is "To this end, the Administration has informed Policy Bureaux that they may consult the CPU when preparing their lists of candidates for appointment to major bodies or committees". President, as reported in the media, SHIU Sin-por said that "they should consult the CPU", and he also specified that they should consult Sophia KAO, one of the full-time advisers of the CPU. Regarding the Chief Secretary's main reply, I would like to ask if the Government LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2531 has made amendments to the earlier media reports about the arrangement mentioned by Mr SHIU Sin-por.
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): I have noticed that the Head of the CPU had made some remarks on various occasions in the past week. It is actually impossible for me to comment on every remark of his because he is the one who made the remarks, and he has his own style and characteristics. However, it is my responsibility to state clearly the roles and functions conferred to the CPU by the SAR Government, especially by top government officials of the SAR Government.
The CPU has not deviated from its role and function as a think tank. However, this think tank that gives advice to top government officials has a wide range of functions, and no particular subject or scope had been specified in establishing the CPU. In other words, on issues of concern to top government officials, the CPU has to keep up with the times in playing the role as a think tank, so as to provide more advice or even alternative views to the Government.
If the Chief Executive thinks that cultivation of talents should be the main concern of the current-term Government, he can assign this function to the CPU. To cultivate talents, it must have a grasp of certain information on human resources information. Hence, the Chief Executive has appointed a full-time adviser to the CPU to provide advice when the relevant Policy Bureaux are considering a list of candidates. This is consistent with what has been stated in my main reply.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): President, my supplementary question is, the Chinese word "須 " (shall) used by Mr SHIU has changed to "可 " (may), as used by the Chief Secretary today. Has Mr SHIU's earlier remark been amended? The Chief Secretary has not given a positive answer.
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CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): If Mr LEONG has noticed, the actual remark is: as the CPU is only responsible to three top officials, if these top officials think that other Policy Bureaux can obtain some advisory services from the CPU, these top officials should inform other Policy Bureaux, so that they need not via these three top officials on each occasion and can directly approach the CPR for advisory services. Therefore, I have just used the word "informed". Certainly, one of these three top officials can inform other Policy Bureaux that they can approach the CPU to seek some advice on relevant issue. If Mr LEONG reads on, he will find in the reply that the meaning of the Chinese word "須 " (shall) or the Chinese word "可 " (may) is clear enough. In other words, the Policy Bureaux can accept or decline to accept the advice or the potential candidates provided by the CPU.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): Chief Secretary, you emphasized in your main reply that the CPU only gives advice or recommends potential candidates. It does not have the authority to approve or veto appointments and it just provides advisory services. I know that Sophia KAO from the CPU is responsible for the new task of identifying potential candidates. We all know that Sophia KAO has very rich experience in human resources and it can be said that her appointment is very appropriate and tailor-made.
I would like to ask, in deciding on this new task of the CPU, has the Government first identified Sophia KAO and then designed this new task to fit in, or has it first identified the new task and then appointed Sophia KAO to take up the post? Will there be such a new task if Sophia KAO is not available?
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): As Members are all aware, it usually takes a very long time to draft a paper because we need to get the support of top government officials and complementary resources, and then we have to submit the papers to the Legislative Council for scrutiny and approval. As I have just stated, it has been clearly set out in the paper submitted earlier by the authorities to the Panel on Public Service of the Legislative Council that it is necessary to strengthen the CPU's function in the cultivation of talents. Thus, I can answer Dr LAM Tai-fai's supplementary question direct, the authorities have this idea and plan to strengthen the study and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2533 co-ordination for cultivation of talents first and then identified a suitable candidate to take up the newly created post of a full-time adviser.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): I would like to know if I have correctly understood the Chief Secretary's answer. Is the Chief Secretary saying that the CPU will definitely take up this new task and it just happens that Sophia KAO has the relevant experience and can enforce this policy, hence she is appointed by the Government to carry out this new task? Is this what the Chief Secretary means to say?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LAM, the Chief Secretary has clearly answered your supplementary question just now. I believe that you have the wisdom to fully understand what the Chief Secretary meant.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): Our wisdom obviously tells us that this post is actually tailor-made for Sophia KAO, and it is an appointment by favouritism. What is meant by cultivating talents? The community is cultivating talents ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please do not make comments.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): …… there is no reason why the CPU should be responsible for cultivating talents.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE, please state your supplementary question.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): I am now stating my supplementary question. Chief Secretary, you have said that in determining the candidates for 2534 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 the advisory bodies, Sophia KAO does not have the authority to approve, veto or decide on appointments. But, I wish to tell you, eunuchs also do not have any authority but they have immense power ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE, please state your supplementary question.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): …… I would like to ask the Chief Secretary, even though Sophia KAO does not have the authority concerned, if she makes a proposal, we all know that she has the backing of LEUNG Chun-ying, and she can still swagger about in borrowed plumes. In that case, civil servants, Directors of Bureaux ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You still have not stated your supplementary question. Please state your question immediately.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): …… I am stating my question. Obviously, she swaggers about in borrowed plumes; does the Chief Secretary admit that? It is said that she does not have the authority concerned but she actually ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE, if you have stated your supplementary question, please sit down.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): …… my supplementary question is whether the Directors of Bureaux should eventually listen to Sophia KAO. Chief Secretary, you know that fairly well.
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): First, I must say that this metaphor depicted by Mr LEE Cheuk-yan in the Legislative Council and on other occasions outside the Legislative Council is inappropriate. Second, I have stated in part (b) of my main reply that Policy Bureaux will continue to be LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2535 responsible for the appointment procedures and the final decisions will certainly be made by the appointing authorities. If Mr LEE thinks that Policy Bureaux are incapable of independently considering the advice and candidates provided by the CPU, I am afraid he has underestimated the wisdom and abilities of the accountability officials.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): We have spent more than 24 minutes on this question. Second question.
Measures to Assist Logistics Industry
2. MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): President, some members of the logistics industry have relayed to me that there has all along been a lack of logistics sites for many years. Although the former Chief Executive mentioned in his Policy Address in 2009 that the authorities "have identified a number of permanent sites around the Kwai Tsing area, which is close to our container terminals and airport" for the development of a logistics cluster, the Government has only granted two sites so far, and other sites may only be released pending the completion of the market and traffic impact assessments. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the timetable for releasing the remaining sites as well as the areas, locations and specified uses of those sites; among such sites, the number of those which will be used for storing containers and providing logistics back-up services;
(b) given that some members of the logistics industry have told me that apart from the Kwai Tsing area, the authorities will also consider identifying other logistics sites in North West New Territories, of the progress update on such task (including the timetable for releasing the sites as well as the areas and locations of those sites); and
(c) given that the logistics industry has switched to the provision of storage, distribution and transit services for high value goods and these services require a lot of land for the work processes of storing, devanning and consolidating containers, whether the Government 2536 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
will review its current policy on logistics sites and, making reference to the practice of the Government in the last century of constructing factory buildings and industrial estates, provide infrastructural facilities to tie in with the development of the logistics industry, for example, constructing government warehouses and lease them to small and medium enterprises (SMEs) at cost, so that the development of such enterprises will not be hindered because of inability to afford the high rentals of warehouses built by developers on sites obtained at high bid prices; if it will, of the details of its plan; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, the logistics industry is a traditional pillar industry of Hong Kong. It has, over the years, made significant contributions towards promoting the economic development and employment in Hong Kong. The logistics industry covers a broad spectrum of service areas, including sea, land and air terminals, carriage of goods, freight forwarding, storage and supply chain management. Logistics is no doubt inseparable from warehousing. According to the statistics of the Rating and Valuation Department, private warehouses with a total area of about 3.47 million sq m as at end 2011 are widely distributed in industrial sites across various districts to provide storage facilities for the logistics industry. Furthermore, in Kwai Tsing alone, some 100 hectares of land are being used for port back-up purposes, including goods vehicle/container vehicle parking and container storage.
In recent years, the logistics industry has gradually shifted towards the handling of high-value goods and provision of high value-added services to respond to market trends. In particular, with the increasing demand for trend-sensitive and up-market consumer goods in the Mainland and other parts of Asia, it has become more important to grasp changes in tastes and to conduct timely marketing and sale of goods. Many overseas brands have therefore set up regional distribution business in Hong Kong to make use of our established strengths, including our efficient and well-connected external transport network, an international airport with a large handling capacity and comprehensive services, a free port and intellectual property rights protection, and so on. These companies engage third party logistics service providers in Hong Kong for carrying out inventory management and other value-added services such as LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2537 labelling and packaging before the goods are distributed to other countries or regions at the right time and in the right quantity. These services are described as "third party logistics" within the industry. At present, there are many third party logistics service providers operating in Hong Kong. They own professional knowledge and resources in supply chain management, and are geared to planning and managing the flow of goods along the supply chain to cater for the requests of individual consignors. As logistics services are getting more specialized, industry demand for modern logistic facilities has also increased. The Government is committed to identifying and providing dedicated land for this type of logistics operation in order to support the industry in the provision of high value-added services. In Hong Kong where land is a valuable resource, modern logistic centres are built as multi-storey buildings with driveways facilitating the direct access of heavy goods vehicles to various floors for loading and unloading. These logistics centres are purpose-built and are different from conventional warehouses or industrial buildings. Since Kwai Tsing is located close to the container terminals and the airport, it is a preferred district for identifying logistics sites. We have completed traffic impact assessment of the proposed logistics developments in Kwai Tsing, and have released two sites in Tsing Yi with a total area of 4.8 hectares through open tender in 2010 and 2012 respectively. We have stipulated in the lease that the land could only be used for the provision of third party logistics services, and that such use should not be changed. We plan to release another logistics site of about two hectares in Tsing Yi through open tender in early 2013.
In parallel, we are working with the Planning Department and relevant departments to identify suitable sites outside Kwai Tsing and examine their feasibility for logistics use. Tuen Mun West is a key district that we focus on. With the commissioning of the Tuen Mun ― Chek Lap Kok Link, the travelling time between Tuen Mun and the airport will be significantly reduced to approximately 10 minutes, which will make Tuen Mun West more attractive for the development of the logistics industry. In this connection, we are conducting a traffic impact assessment and an ecology assessment for a site of about 3.8 hectares in Tuen Mun West to ascertain its suitability for the construction of a modern logistics centre. If the assessment results confirm that the proposed development is feasible, we will submit the proposal for the consideration and approval of the Town Planning Board. Moreover, the Administration is reviewing the feasibility of designating some of the land in Tuen Mun West Area 38 for logistics development. 2538 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
In the long term, we will, through various studies, explore if it is feasible to earmark some of the land in new development areas (for example, Hung Shui Kiu and Northeast New Territories) and the reclaimed areas for modern logistics developments.
As logistics service is a kind of economic and commercial activities, the Government has released logistics sites to the market in a fair and open manner through the established practice of open tendering to allow enterprises interested in investing in Hong Kong's logistics industry to submit bids. As for industrial estates, they were set up mainly to provide industrial sites for activities which cannot be carried out in an ordinary multi-storey industrial or commercial building, with a view to broadening the industrial base and upgrading the technology levels of Hong Kong, and facilitating the overall economic development. However, the land concerned cannot be used solely for storage purpose. According to information available, at least one logistics company providing high value-added services has been admitted to an industrial estate.
We note that logistics enterprises of different sizes all have a strong demand for space. As such, when putting up a logistics site for open tender, we always stipulate in the lease conditions that the land can only be used for the provision of logistics services, and that such use should not be changed. This restriction should help to lower the bidding price. Besides, the Government is open to considering any other effective and feasible measures proposed by the industry to allocate the limited land resources to private enterprises for development of logistics services, provided that the measures give due regard to the principle of fair competition and the need to balance the interests of different stakeholders, and that the overall development and competitiveness of our logistics industry can be enhanced.
Furthermore, we will continue to provide suitable land for port back-up uses to facilitate the efficient operation of the container terminals and the port. To this end, we plan to release sites of about 14 hectares in Kwai Tsing in phases to meet the industry's demand for port back-up sites from next year onwards.
MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): President, in part (b) of the main question, I asked about the timetable for releasing the sites in North West New Territories as well as the areas and locations of those sites, and in the third LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2539 paragraph of the main reply, the Secretary mentioned the feasibility of designating some of the land in Tuen Mun West Area 38 for logistics development. In this connection, does the Secretary have any information about the timetable for releasing the sites or the approximate size of those sites?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, as we are studying the area with other departments, there is no concrete timetable for the time being. And yet, we would like to first conduct some basic studies on the area to ascertain, in particular, if the traffic and complementary facilities are suitable for logistics development. If proved feasible, we will proceed as soon as possible.
MR VINCENT FANG (in Cantonese): President, in the 2003 Policy Address, the authorities had already planned to build a modern Logistics Park on North Lantau Island to accommodate logistics companies of different scales. I consider this an essential project for Hong Kong to become a logistics centre. Also, the location of the site is very appropriate as it is close to the Hong Kong International Airport, the Kwai Chung Container Terminal and the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge to be commissioned in 2016. And yet, 10 years have passed, not much progress has been made in the development of the Lantau Logistics Park. May I ask the authorities if the project has been shelved; if it has, of the reason for that; if not, the new timetable?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, the authorities did propose to develop the Lantau Logistics Park in 2003. According to the projection back then, the first phase of development would involve the reclamation of 72 hectares of land. This large-scale reclamation project does not only involve substantial investment, careful consideration should also be given to environmental protection. It therefore takes quite a long time to finalize the entire project. Meanwhile, we hope to meet the development need of the industry by providing available sites by all means, and continue to examine the need to provide logistics sites through reclamation. On the other hand, we will explore the feasibility of earmarking reclaimed sites for logistics development in the public engagement exercise and 2540 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 feasibility study on enhancing land supply through reclamation outside Victoria Harbour and rock cavern development.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR VINCENT FANG (in Cantonese): The Secretary has not answered whether the project has been shelved due to environmental protection and reclamation.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, can you answer specifically if the project mentioned by Mr FANG has been shelved?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, as stated in my earlier reply, we will continue to examine the provision of logistics sites through reclamation and thus there is no question of the project being shelved.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, in the main reply, the Secretary highlighted that sites in Kwai Tsing have been earmarked for logistics development, for example, the logistics site of two hectares as mentioned in the second paragraph of the main reply. Although the Government has all along earmarked sites in Kwai Tsing for logistics purpose, it has neglected the provision of sites for parking container vehicles and storing containers in the district. As a result, members from the container freight industry, especially drivers of container vehicles, have difficulties in finding parking spaces in the district. Once the two-year short-term lease expires, they will have to look for parking spaces elsewhere. This is why they demonstrated and protested every two years. Has the Secretary considered the basic needs and requirements of members of the trade in developing the logistics industry?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, as I have said in the main reply earlier, there will a back-up site of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2541 about 14 hectares in Kwai Tsing, and some will be used as parking spaces for goods vehicles or container vehicles. Even in Tsing Yi, as Miss MAK has mentioned earlier, some former Government land will be released in phases for use by container vehicles.
MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): President, land is considered most essential to the logistics industry and the Secretary just now advised that land would be released for logistics development through tender. However, as noted from previous tender exercises, the land always goes to the highest bidder and the bidding prices are not low at all. Neither is the rental of land upon development by developers. As a result, only multinational corporations can afford to pay. Local SMEs cannot possibly afford the rental. On the other hand, following government initiatives to revitalize industrial buildings, the leasing of industrial buildings now mainly follows the business model and the rental has therefore increased accordingly. In view of the high land price and high rental, many local logistics companies, which are SMEs, can no longer meet the operating costs.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please raise your supplementary question.
MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is: Have the authorities introduced any policy to enhance the competitiveness of the logistics industry? For example, the Secretary has just mentioned the incorporation of certain restrictions into the lease conditions. Will the authorities make reference to the "Hong Kong property for Hong Kong residents" policy and designate certain parts of the logistics sites for lease by Hong Kong companies but not multinational corporations?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, when we took the initiative to provide land for the development of modern logistics, we have actually stipulated in the lease conditions that the land can only be used for the provision of third party logistics services, and that such use should not be changed. Insofar as the market tender price is concerned, it is believed that the incorporation of this provision will be favourable to trade 2542 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 members taking part in the bidding, as the tender price will certainly be different from that of land for ordinary use.
MR POON SIU-PING (in Cantonese): President, the logistics industry is a very important pillar of Hong Kong. As advised by the Secretary earlier and according to my rough calculation, there are currently about 14.6 hectares of land available for use by the logistics industry, while the Lantau Logistics Park, as a colleague has mentioned, will provide about 72 hectares of land. May I ask the Secretary if the authorities have developed any long-term vision for the provision of logistics sites? Does he have any information about the total area in this regard? What preparation has the Government made?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, in fact, industrial sites can be found in various districts throughout the territory which can also be used by the logistics industry. Earlier, we have highlighted the special requirements of the modern professional third party logistics services, such as high ceilings and access of vehicles to various floors. We are now working to provide these special facilities in the hope of gradually gauging market response. As evident from the recent tender result, there was active response in this regard and we will therefore work towards this direction. As regards the extensive area designated for the Lantau Logistics Park as initially estimated by the industry, in fact, not all the area is planned for logistics purpose.
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, the proposed logistics centre will attract lots of heavy vehicles running on the surrounding roads. And, noting that these logistics facilities mostly operate round-the-clock, residents of Kwai Tsing, especially Tsing Yi, were therefore infuriated to learn that the Government has granted the site for such purpose in view of the large number of heavy vehicles moving in and out of the area. They were infuriated mainly because of the noise nuisance generated as a result. The Government's policy towards the surrounding roads of the logistics sites is no different from that of ordinary roads. On receipt of a noise complaint, measurements will be taken with the windows closed as the site might be initially earmarked for residential and commercial purposes. The fact is, however, local residents do suffer from noise nuisances. May I ask the Secretary if policies have been put in place to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2543 comfort residents who have raised oppositions, and in particular, requested the installation of noise barriers? If the matter cannot be properly dealt with, the granting of additional land to implement major logistics plans in the future will certainly be delayed so long as the noise problem remains unresolved.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, you are making a comment. You have raised your supplementary question, so please let the Secretary reply.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, perhaps let me make the following explanation with regard to Mr CHAN's supplementary question. The procedures involved in the provision of high value-added logistics services, logistics facilities or logistics centre are basically conducted indoors, and even the parking or loading and unloading of goods vehicles are confined to indoor areas. Thus, there is no question of causing noise nuisances to the residential area. This is the first point.
As regards whether the movement of goods vehicles will affect the residents, an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) Study on the selected sites and relevant road designs will be conducted to ensure that the basic requirements and standards are met before such vehicles are permitted to use the roads concerned. Take Tsing Yi as an example, we had made special observation and the findings of the traffic impact assessment showed that there will not be practical change in the noise level.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): President, I think that the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question. He just said that the operation of the logistics facilities is confined indoors ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
2544 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): …… but he seemed to say that the vehicles do not give out noise ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, please repeat the part of your supplementary question which you think the Secretary has not answered and stop giving comments.
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): I think that the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question because ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You only need to repeat your supplementary question and there is no need to tell us what you think.
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): I mainly want to ask, with respect to the noise standard, will the Secretary ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): What is your follow-up question?
MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): …… develop a specific standard for the ambient noise level of the Logistics Park instead of using the standard for ordinary roads?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If Members make too much comment while putting the question, the question will become muddled. I remind Members again that one question should be asked specifically for the Secretary to reply.
Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, just now the Member asked if the noise made by vehicles running on LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2545 the surrounding roads of residential areas would exceed certain standard, thereby necessitating the banning of the development of such logistics centres. In fact, the Government has examined the noise issue in Tsing Yi, and the findings showed that the situation has not been aggravated. According to the road design, the noise generated does comply with the requirements of the EIA Study.
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): President, according to a paper submitted to the Legislative Council in June 2009, the Government was actively studying the feasibility of developing Container Terminal 10 in Southwest Tsing Yi and the feasibility report was scheduled for completion in early 2011. In February 2012, the Financial Secretary said that the relevant study would be completed in late 2012. Can the Government inform this Council the progress of the construction of Container Terminal 10?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NG, how is your present supplementary question relevant to the main question?
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): This is related to logistics development and the Government must address the future development of the container terminal as a complementary move.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, this question does not have any direct relevance to today's question, but I am happy to answer it. Our study is mainly on two aspects. Firstly, we are exploring the technical requirements and examining the various technical requirements and environmental issues involving the construction of Container Terminal 10 in Southwest Tsing Yi. Secondly, we are making long-term projection and estimation of Hong Kong's overall port business, so as to see if the future demand generated from the development justifies the construction of a new container terminal. We are studying from these two perspectives and will come to a decision when a concrete outcome is available.
2546 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Council has spent 23 minutes 30 seconds on this question. Third question now.
Measures to Prevent Conflict of Interests on Part of Senior Government Officials
3. MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): President, on the day after assumption of office, the Chief Executive indicated that the Government hoped to achieve the goal of "zero food waste" eventually. The Secretary for the Environment has also said that the Government will "actively support reduction of food waste". It has been reported that Chief Executive's wife has set up a company in the middle of this month to promote the reduction of food waste. According to its proposal, the company will deploy manpower resources to undertake such work as food distribution, public education and research, and so on, and it plans to collaborate with various organizations in its work, lobby the Government to introduce legislation in this regard and solicit funds from the business sector. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) according to the current requirements on declaration of interests, whether Chief Executive is required to declare the companies set up by his spouse which are directly related to the policies actively promoted by the Government; if such declarations are required, of the details and whether such declarations are available for public inspection; if such declarations are not required, of the reasons for that;
(b) whether it has assessed if it will give rise to perceived or real conflict of interests when on the one hand the Government actively promotes the policy of food waste reduction and, on the other hand, Chief Executive's wife has set up a company engaged in food waste treatment; if the assessment result is in the affirmative, of the details; if the assessment result is in the negative, the reasons for that; and
(c) whether the operation of companies by the spouses and immediate family members of Chief Executive and politically appointed officials (PAOs) as well as their acceptance of government subsidies or LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2547
donations from the business sector through such companies are subject to regulation by existing legislation or codes for Chief Executive and PAOs on prevention of conflict of interests; if so, whether it has assessed if the aforesaid case violates the relevant requirements; if such regulation is not in place, whether the Government has considered expanding the scope of the relevant legislation or codes to cover the aforesaid situation to prevent conflict of interests?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, in consultation with the Chief Executive's Office and the Environment Bureau, I am authorized to respond to Member's question on behalf of the Administration as follows:
(a) As the President of the Executive Council (ExCo), the Chief Executive declared his registrable interests in accordance with the arrangements applicable to ExCo Members. Under the requirements of the existing ExCo declaration mechanism, if the Member himself, or with or on behalf of his spouse or children, holds a beneficial interest in shareholdings of companies (both listed and unlisted ones) or other bodies, and the nominal value of the shareholdings is greater than 1% of the issued share capital, the Member has to declare, to his knowledge, the names of the companies and bodies concerned.
Although the Chief Executive is himself not a PAO and hence not subject to the requirements of the Code for Officials Under the Political Appointment System (the PAO Code), he declared his financial and other interests in accordance with the arrangements applicable to the PAOs under the PAO Code. The current declaration system under the PAO Code requires PAOs of all ranks to declare their investment, shareholding or direct or indirect interest in any company; their directorships, proprietorships or partnerships in any company; and, if any, the specific details concerning their participation in any private company's affairs. They are also required to declare any investment and interest held by himself/herself or in the name of his/her spouse, children or other 2548 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
persons, agents or companies, but are actually acquired on his/her account or in which he/she has a beneficial interest. The open parts of their declarations, which cover the names and occupations of the PAOs' spouses, are placed on the websites of their respective offices/bureaux for public inspection.
The Chief Executive's declarations in respect of the above two arrangements have been uploaded to the website of the Chief Executive's Office for public inspection.
(b) According to the information provided by the Environment Bureau, food waste accounts for around 40% of some 9 000 tonnes of municipal solid waste disposed of in Hong Kong's landfills every day. The Administration's key strategy in this area is to avoid and reduce the production of food waste. The unavoidable food waste should be retrieved and recycled as far as possible. Over the years, relevant Policy Bureaux has elaborated to the general public the Administration's food waste strategy through papers issued to the Legislative Council and the website of the Environmental Protection Department. Through educational and promotional activities, as well as efforts on various fronts, the Administration also raised the public's awareness and promoted food waste avoidance and reduction among the public and relevant industries.
There have always been various organizations in the community participating in food waste avoidance and reduction. Support and co-operation of the general public, as well as echo and participation from more sectors of the community, are essential to the proper treatment of food waste and relevant work in the area. The Administration therefore welcomes more individuals and organizations in the community to help reduce food waste and turn the unavoidable food waste into useful resources.
The Chief Executive and the Chief Executive's Office have not participated in Mrs Regina LEUNG's activities related to food waste recycling. The Chief Executive's Office understands from Mrs LEUNG that "Food for Good" project is non-profit-making in nature and aims to contribute to environmental sustainability through LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2549
establishing a platform to promote food waste recycling and waste reduction at source in Hong Kong. The project also proposes to donate the food it receives to the needy in society. The "Food for Good" project hopes to bring together people of similar views to advocate for food waste recycling at various levels including the community, the catering industry, residential estates and schools. The ultimate objective of this project is to promote in the community the message of treasuring food and proper attitude in handling food waste.
According to our understanding, "Food for Good" was incorporated in November this year, but has yet to proceed to commence operation. Mrs LEUNG is one of the founding members of the project. After the project is formally launched, she will resign the directorship and take up an honourary post. The project is non-profit-making in nature. Mrs LEUNG will not obtain any economic benefits from the project.
(c) As mentioned in part (a) of my reply, the Chief Executive will, in accordance with the arrangements applicable to PAOs under the PAO Code, make declarations on the relevant information and avoid cases of conflict of interest.
Apart from the offence of bribery under the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap. 201), it will be an offence of misconduct in public office under the common law if a prescribed officer (including the Chief Executive and PAOs), without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, commits serious misconduct while carrying out official or official-related duties. The provisions relating to bribery in the Ordinance which are applicable to everyone, are also applicable to the Chief Executive, PAOs and their spouses and immediate family. For example, section 2(2) of the Ordinance stipulates that a person solicits or accepts directly or indirectly an advantage no matter whether the relevant acts are performed by the person concerned or any other person acting on his behalf. Section 4(1) provides that any person who, whether in Hong Kong or elsewhere, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, offers any advantage to a public servant as an inducements to or reward for or otherwise on account 2550 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
of that public servant's acts as prescribed in the relevant provisions, shall be guilty of an offence.
I understand that Mrs LEUNG wishes to play a part in environmental protection through promoting the "Food for Good" project. As a member of the community, Mrs LEUNG wishes to contribute to Hong Kong. The project is non-profit-making in nature and she will not obtain any economic benefits from the project. It is believed that there would not be a question of conflict of interest.
MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): President, having read the main reply, I am surprised by the low comprehension power and level of the Chief Executive's Office on the one hand, and their being deliberately evasive on the other. The Secretary has not answered parts (b) and (c) of my question.
Seemingly, this reply suggests that so long as the Chief Executive does not hold the company in his name, and even if the company is held by his wife, there is no need to make any declarations at all. Moreover, there is no way to avoid the situation as reported in The New York Times, that is, Premier WEN Jiabao has not held any company, but his wife and mother have. According to the Secretary's reply, such situation is unavoidable in Hong Kong, and he has no intention to improve the existing mechanism in prevent its occurrence. President, is my understanding right or wrong?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, regarding the Member's question as to whether the company concerned, given that it is promoted and set up by Mrs LEUNG, will give rise to perceived or real conflict of interests, I have already stated clearly in the main reply. First, the project launched by the company concerned is non-profit-making in nature. Second, Mrs LEUNG has not obtained any economic benefits from the project. Third, according to the understanding of the Chief Executive's Office, Mrs LEUNG will resign the directorship and take up an honourary post after the project is formally launched. In other words, it will only be an honourary post. Hence, it is believed that there would not be a question of any so-called conflict of interest.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2551
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered? Please repeat your question.
MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): Is it the case that the Chief Executive can connive at the holding of companies by his wife, relatives and friends so long as he does not hold such companies in his own name, and that this situation is unavoidable under the existing ExCo declaration mechanism?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Is your supplementary question about the declaration mechanism?
MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): Yes. I am asking the Secretary whether the Chief Executive can connive at the holding of companies by his friends and relatives including his wife so long as he does not hold such companies in his name ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): What do you mean by "connive"?
MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): Perhaps I will say "permit", President, a relatively neutral word. If the Chief Executive does not hold any shares himself, but permits or acquiesces in the holding of shares by other persons including his wife, he needs not make any declaration under the existing ExCo declaration mechanism, while his relatives or his wife can continue to conduct ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Your supplementary question is very clear, and that is about the declaration mechanism. Secretary, please reply.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): As I have mentioned in the main reply, the Chief Executive, as the President of the ExCo, also has to comply with the ExCo declaration requirements.
2552 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Perhaps allow me to say a few more words. There are in fact stringent requirements governing ExCo Members' declaration of interests in companies. In particular, apart from their ownership, ExCo Members (including the Chief Executive) must also declare interests in land, properties or companies related to such properties held in the name of their spouses, children or other persons or companies, but are actually acquired on their account. In other words, the target of our declaration system is the officials themselves, that is, ExCo Members and the Chief Executive themselves, and the primary concern of declaration is not whether the interests are held in their names or not. While companies held in their names must of course be declared, they must also declare interests in companies held not in their names, but in the name of their spouses or children, that are actually acquired on their account, in accordance with the existing requirements.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, the Member is asking whether no declaration is required if the shareholding is actually acquired on the account of the spouse alone?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, if the shareholding is actually acquired on the account of the spouse or other family members, no declaration is required under the existing system.
DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): President, according to the Secretary's reply, declaration of interest by the Chief Executive is governed by two mechanisms, namely, the ExCo declaration mechanism and the PAO Code. In theory, the Chief Executive should comply with both. But in reality, as we can see from this incident, the Secretary has not answered the point raised in Mr Alan LEONG's supplementary question, that is, as the Chief Executive's wife has, in setting up a company to conduct businesses, given rise to perceived or real conflict of interests, should declaration be made so as to avoid being alleged of conflict of interests?
My supplementary question is whether this incident will in fact become a precedent such that the Government would actually formulate a set of legal LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2553 requirements, under which the Chief Executive has to declare interests if he or his family members has any potential conflict of interests, even though he himself has no conflict of interest. As we can see, this example involving the Chief Executive's wife may have some significance because her company will enjoy benefits due to her relationship with the Chief Executive. Hence, should a set of legal requirements be formulated to provide that the Chief Executive must make a declaration regardless of whether the interests are held by his family members or himself, so that we can have a clear picture, instead of simply relying on the two existing yet seemingly ineffective mechanisms to deal with such cases?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Are you asking the Secretary whether the Government will amend the laws? Secretary, please reply.
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, regarding the existing declaration mechanisms, apart from the declaration mechanism for ExCo Members, there is also the PAO Code as just mentioned by Dr Joseph LEE. As I have explained in the main reply, PAOs are required to declare any investments and interests held by themselves or in the name of their spouses, children or other persons, and so on, but are actually acquired on their account. I have reiterated this point repeatedly just now.
In addition, PAOs of all ranks must disclose the names and occupations of their spouses in the open parts of their declarations. Likewise, the Chief Executive has also provided the name, occupation, and so on, of his spouse in his declaration. Furthermore, according to the requirements of the PAO Code just mentioned, PAOs of all ranks must avoid putting themselves in a position where they might arouse suspicion of dishonesty, unfairness or conflict of interest; and report to the Chief Executive any private interest that may influence, or appear to influence, their judgment in the performance of their duties. Regardless of whether it is the existing PAO Code or ExCo declaration mechanism, we believe that different levels of regulation are in place to effectively remind the Chief Executive as well as the PAOs that they should cautiously avoid potential conflicts of interests arising from their spouses or other immediate family members. That is our requirement in general.
Nonetheless, insofar as this incident is concerned, according to the understanding of the Chief Executive's Office as I quoted in the main reply, while 2554 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Mrs LEUNG is a founding member of "Food for Good" project, she will resign the directorship and take up an honourary post after the project is formally launched. As the project is non-profit-making in nature and the Constitution of "Food for Good" has also expressly stated that its nature is non-profit-making, Mrs LEUNG will not obtain any economic benefits from the project. Hence, it is believed that there would not be a question of conflict of interest.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr LEE, what is your question?
DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): In fact, you have asked the question on my behalf, that is, whether the Government will amend the laws, but the Secretary merely reads out his reply again, without answering my question about whether the Government will amend the laws, or perhaps the Secretary can answer me ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The Secretary has already stated clearly that the existing system is adequate for the purpose.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, members of the public are worried that people with connections will abuse public office for personal gain. For Mrs Regina LEUNG, this connection is her family relationship with the most powerful person in the entire SAR. "Food for Good" is not a registered charitable fund, but a registered company which can absolutely seek economic benefits structure-wise.
Here, I would like to ask the Secretary this question. It is understood that Mrs Regina LEUNG has held meetings with green groups in the Chief Executive's Office for discussions on handling the problem of food waste, as well as the future operation of "Food for Good" company. I would like to know whether the Chief Executive's wife can make use of government facilities to run the affairs of a private registered company? Are the building management staff of the Chief Executive's Office aware of this matter? Will you conduct thorough investigations into the matter, and prohibit such activities which are essentially abuses of authority and public office for personal gain?
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SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, before and after the reunification, the wives of former Governors or Chief Executives would take up certain honourary public posts and perform the relevant duties. For example, charitable organizations would sometimes invite the wives of former Governors or the wife of the incumbent Chief Executive to take up honourary posts and help promote the relevant public causes. Under the circumstances, we would provide appropriate support to enable the wives of former Governors or the wife of the incumbent Chief Executive to properly discharge their duties of these honourary public posts.
However, regarding the question just raised by Ms Cyd HO in relation to the specific situation of the said company, I have no relevant information in hand for an answer. Nonetheless, as I said just now, if Mrs LEUNG is performing duties in her honourary public posts in the capacity of the Chief Executive's wife, I believe that support would be provided in this regard.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): No. Just now, I have already stated very clearly at the onset that ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat your supplementary question.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): …… this company is a registered company that can seek economic benefits, rather than a registered charitable fund. This company can seek economic benefits, but the Secretary has confused it with the duties of honourary advisors to charitable organizations. Just now, I asked the Secretary whether such activities would be prohibited from now on, that is, to seek personal gains with power, making use of government facilities to organize activities for a private registered company? This is a question of facts, as well as a question on principle.
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms HO, you have made some serious accusations in your question. It would be more appropriate for you to ask the Secretary whether the Government has any policy to prohibit the Chief Executive's wife from convening business meetings of a private company in the premises of the Chief Executive's Office. Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): President, I will make one more point. According to the information I have in hand, the Constitution of "Food for Good" company has specified that its nature is non-profit-making. Hence, I believe that this company is neither a commercial undertaking nor a profit-making organization. That is what I learn from the information I have in hand.
As I have just replied, if Mrs LEUNG is performing duties of honourary public posts in her capacity as the Chief Executive's wife, we would provide appropriate support. Regarding other aspects in Ms HO's question, as I have just said, I am afraid that I cannot reply further without any information in hand.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Council has already spent nearly 23 minutes on this question. Fourth question.
Procurement of Long Range Acoustic Device by Hong Kong Police Force
4. MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, it was reported in the press on 19 October this year that the police had procured a new type of weapon called Long Range Acoustic Device (commonly known as "sound cannons"), which could be used to disperse participants of demonstrations and public gatherings. The press reports also pointed out that the sound cannons could produce high frequency sound waves which could impair the hearing of persons within a short distance from the device. In response to the press report, the police issued a press release on the same day stating that the police had put in place very strict codes and guidelines on the use of the device, and that the device would only be used in anti-riot operations. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
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(a) of the details of the sound cannons, including the model, efficacy, lethality, coverage, and potential hazards to human health (including immediate and permanent damages), and whether they will harm people who are not the target;
(b) of the weaponry used by the police, prior to the procurement of the sound cannons, for handling the situations which are now handled by the sound cannons; whether the police's procurement of the sound cannons was due to the inadequacies of such weaponry; if there were inadequacies of such weaponry, of the details; whether the police had other reasons for procuring the sound cannons; whether they have plans to procure more sound cannons; and
(c) how the police determine what situations are "riots" which call for the use of sound cannons; of the channels through which the public may inspect the police's codes and guidelines on the use of sound cannons; whether the authorities have consulted healthcare professionals and the Independent Police Complaints Council on the codes; if they have, of the views collected; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, to maintain their operational and response capability, the Police Force regularly review and renew their equipment with reference to such equipment used by their counterparts around the world. My reply to the Member's question is as follows:
First, I must point out that the Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) procured by the Police Force is a broadcasting system, not a weapon. It can effectively help the police to convey important messages over a long range in a noisy environment, in a bid to preserve public safety, public order and prevent injury to life and property.
In line with the circumstances and operational needs, various police districts and formations currently use sound devices of different types and models, including portable and floor-type broadcasting devices as well as public announcement (PA) systems on police vehicles (such as patrol vehicles and motorcycles). According to the police's actual operational experiences, the 2558 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 effective transmission range of the PA systems on police vehicles is estimated to be around 50 m. As the sound quality, volume and transmission range of such systems are comparatively inferior to those of the LRADs, they are not in a position to competently achieve the effect of making long range public announcements in a noisy environment.
In procuring armoured vehicles in 2009, the Police Tactical Unit Headquarters also purchased two LRADs with an effective transmission range of about 300 m. The two devices can only be used together with the armoured vehicles in circumstances such as serious disasters, counter-terrorism operations or severe security incidents for broadcasting purposes in a noisy environment with an aim to effectively convey messages to the crowd over a long range or to facilitate evacuation exercises, and so on.
In addition, subsequent to the incident of Hong Kong residents being taken hostage in the Philippines in 2010, the Police Negotiation Cadre (PNC) reviewed measures of handling critical incidents of similar nature. At the time the incident took place, the distance between the local police officers who were handling the incident and the coach on which the hostages were being kept was over 100 m, rendering it difficult for the officers to communicate with the abductor effectively. In the light of this incident, the PNC considered it necessary to procure a sound device for effective communication over a long range. Two portable LRADs were then purchased for handling critical incidents. For instance, in hostage-taking incidents whereby the police are confronted, for the security of on-spot officers, negotiators may use such a device to initiate a conversation with the abductor(s) at a safe distance. In cases of attempted suicide whereby the person attempting to commit suicide is at a dangerous location, such as the Tsing Ma Bridge, negotiators may start a conversation by means of this device for the purpose of life-saving. The effective transmission range of the two portable LRADs is about 250 m.
The four LRADs go with an "alert tone" function. According to the manufacturer's information, the "alert tone" is similar to the siren used by the Police Force and the Fire Services Department. Its frequency is within our normal hearing range and it can easily draw public attention. It is also indicated in the manufacturer's information that, unlike what is said in some of the reports, the LRADs do not generate ultra-low frequency which will cause dizziness, nausea or loss of sense of direction to the recipients. The police stress that the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2559 purpose of procuring the LRADs is to convey important messages over a long range in a noisy environment.
So far, the police have not used the LRADs in any one of their operations, while reiterating that the LRADs will not be used in public meetings and processions.
According to the safety guidelines provided by the manufacturer, as the LRAD can produce significantly loud sound, any improper use of the device (that is, continuous broadcasting with maximum volume range from an unsafe distance and angle) may cause hearing impairment. In this connection, there are stringent rules and operational guidelines on the use of this kind of devices. The operational guidelines were compiled with strict adherence to the manufacturer's safety guidelines. Officers operating the LRADs must receive prior operational and safety trainings, and they should strictly adhere to the operational guidelines. Any use of LRADs shall be approved by the highest officer-in-charge of the formation concerned (that is, an officer of Superintendent to Chief Superintendent rank), and its on-site use shall be approved by an officer of Inspectorate rank or above. The LRAD must be operated by designated officers who have received prior trainings. In case the highest volume range shall be used, another trained officer must be present to assist in observing the actual surroundings to ensure that the operator achieves the objective of the operation in a safe manner without causing impairment to any persons around.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, I very much resent that the authorities have lied to us. The Secretary said that this was not a weapon but let me quote from some research findings. In 2007, the Department of the Army of the United States published that, "employed with the intent to cause discomfort to the listener and that this type of use would convert the LRAD from being only a 'communication' device, to becoming a non-lethal weapon." Besides, the German Periodical Science & Global Security also described the sound cannon as an "acoustic weapon" and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization also described it as a "weapon". Why did the Secretary conceal the fact that the sound cannon could cause permanent hearing impairment and told us that it was not a weapon? Why did the authorities not tell us these facts?
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, first, I disagree that we have concealed the fact. I have clearly said in my main reply that the police procured the LRAD for broadcasting purpose.
Ms HO mentioned that such broadcasting device has been used in different ways in some foreign places. I will not comment on the different usages in other places. Let me describe this way, if someone uses a loudhailer and screams into your ear, of course it will cause damage. Therefore, just now I have emphasized that when we procured this broadcasting device, there are strict guidelines and operators have to receive training and meet the requirements. There is an approval process. The device will only be used for broadcasting when the targets are within a safe distance. For instance, as I have said, the transmission range of the broadcasting device installed on the armoured vehicles is about 300 m but the safety range is beyond 50 m. The guidelines stipulate that operators have to make sure that the targets are over 50 m away when using this broadcasting device. This is our stringent requirement and safety guidelines. As for the portable broadcasting device, the transmission range is 250 m and the safety distance is 10 m. Our guidelines clearly stipulate that the device must be used within the safety range. As regards how the foreign authorities use the device, their approach does not apply to Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, it is only used for broadcasting purposes, just like large loudhailers, and all relevant requirements, guidelines and training are based on this purpose.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not answered my question as he kept emphasizing that the device can be used for broadcasting purposes as long as the guidelines are compiled with. But according to the information I cited, this device can be converted from a kind of broadcasting device ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms HO, please repeat your supplementary question.
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MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): …… to a weapon. Why does the Secretary conceal the fact that this device can be used as a weapon? No matter under what codes of practice or guidelines that it is used ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms HO, the Secretary has answered. Even if you do not agree to what he said, you should not engage in a debate in the question time. Please follow up in some other time and on other occasions.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): President, on the one hand, it is the guidelines enforced by man, on the other hand, it is the nature of the device ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ms HO, as I have already said, no debates are allowed during the question time.
MS CYD HO (in Cantonese): …… Why does the Secretary not explain to us that the device can be turned into a weapon?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please sit down.
MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): According to the reply of the Bureau, this so-called broadcasting device or sound cannon has not been used for the past three years. I wonder how much public money has been spent on procuring this sound cannon.
My supplementary question is: how many weapons or other kinds of devices have been procured by the police that have never been used? Are there loopholes in the approval process? And has public money been wasted?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, the police have to deal with two kinds of situations when performing their duties. First, to handle situations that happen frequently, the police need to have equipments such as 2562 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Emergency Unit vehicles, beat radios, and so on. Second, to handle emergencies such as terrorist activities, the police have to be well equipped. The fact that we do not have terrorist activities in Hong Kong does not mean that we should not be prepared and stay on alert.
When procuring this acoustic device, we had reviewed our situation. As the transmission range of the acoustic device that we had at that time was undesirably restrictive, for example in the urban area, the effective transmission range was only 50 m. To cater for long distance broadcast, we had to review our acoustic equipment. In my view, if the police can stay vigilant in peace time, maintain its efficiency on a long-term basis, and equipped with world-class devices, it will only bring benefits to the public.
In foreign countries, there are in fact many situations where this acoustic device had been used, and such situations may also be applicable in Hong Kong. For example, in 2005 when the hurricane Katrina hit the United States, this acoustic device was used to broadcast messages, issue warning and give instruction. Such situation may also happen in Hong Kong. The fact that it had not happened in the past does not mean it will not happen in future. It is wrong for the police not to be well prepared. Another case is that in an armed confrontation in the United States, this acoustic device had been used to broadcast the recorded message of the armed gangster's mother, and eventually the gangster surrendered. This situation had also happened in Hong Kong before and this equipment is necessary.
MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): President, I think the Secretary has not answered my supplementary question at all. I asked about the quantity of the equipment procured. He can be vigilant at peace times, but he needs not keep explaining how useful this equipment is. I just want to know how many devices have been procured which have not been used. Are there any statistics and how much has been spent ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr MOK, the Secretary has answered your question. Since you queried the cost-effectiveness of this equipment, you asked the Secretary whether a review has been conducted, but you also asked if the authorities have compiled any statistics on whether there are other equipment that LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2563 had been procured but have never put to use. Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): As regards other equipment, I do not have any data in hand.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): President, we are most concerned about whether this equipment will be used against the unarmed people, especially in public meetings and processions.
President, in the second last paragraph of his main reply, the Secretary said that "the device will not be used in public meetings and processions". This seems to have put us at ease but then he also pointed out in the main reply that the device would be used in counter-terrorism operations. My supplementary question is, when this device is used in counter-terrorism operations, will it be used to broadcast, with high volume range, the message that the terrorists have been surrounded and that they should surrender? Or will it be used in public meetings and processions? When these activities become less peaceful, will the police use this device to tell the participants to disperse or will the police use the sound to produce high frequency sound waves that are deafening and making people feel unwell, and hence leave the scene? Can it be used under these circumstances?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, first of all, we will not use this acoustic device in public meetings or processions because as we all know, protestors participating in public meetings and processions will walk side by side with police officers. I have emphasized that this device will only be used beyond the safety distance. In reality, we cannot apply it on protestors in a procession as the transmission range should be over 50 m. This is the first point.
Second, disregarding whether the transmission range is beyond 50 m or not, as we have always emphasized, this acoustic device is used for broadcasting purpose. Very often, the media has reported some other uses in other places. I have also explained that one can put a loudhailer next to someone's ear, but that is 2564 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 not the practice of the police. The police only use the acoustic device for broadcasting purposes and will only use it at a safe distance when broadcasting.
Just now, the Member assumed that the device would be used in riots. When we bought the armoured vehicles, we certainly intend to use them during extreme situations such as riots. But even in dealing with riots, according to our current training, the armoured vehicles must be away from the crowds for at least 100 m, if the environment allows. Why? The reason is very simple. You do not wish to see that before the police officers getting off the vehicles are in formation, the crowds have already got close to them. Therefore, there are clear instructions in the basic training. Even in a riot, the acoustic device will only be used within a suitable range. If there is a need to use the acoustic device, we also have to consider if the environment is suitable. As it is required that the transmission range should be 50 m, Members need not be over worried. In respect to those reports, how others use the acoustic device does not concern us; our Police Force will not adopt such practices and this kind of acoustic device is merely used for broadcasting purposes only, telling the crowds to disperse or issue other warnings.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr TO, has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): President, I cannot say, or perhaps I ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat the part that you think the Secretary has not answered.
MR JAMES TO (in Cantonese): …… What I worry is the statement made in the second last paragraph of the Secretary's main reply, that "the device will not be used in public meetings and processions". Does the Secretary mean that it will be used in less peaceful public meetings and processions?
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): Generally speaking, this acoustic device will not be used. I have already said that it is used for broadcasting purposes only and we have to consider the safety distance when we use it. According to the police's experience, the acoustic devices now in use can adequately handle processions and protests. If the existing acoustic devices are adequate, there is no need to use the Long Range Acoustic Device.
DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): President, this issue has obviously aroused great controversy. Is the acoustic device a weapon, a sound cannon or an amplifier? To my understanding, the Secretary says that it is a super amplifier but it can inflict harm. Concerning part (c) of the main question, the Secretary has not answered. The whole issue is highly controversial and will cause public disturbance. Since we have the Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC), of which I am the Deputy Chairman, the authorities should discuss this issue with the IPCC. The problem is whether the authorities have discussed with the IPCC? As this issue may arouse controversy or public disturbance, what can be done to reduce complaints? And it is the aim of IPCC to reduce complaints. But the Secretary has not answered.
I would like to ask the Secretary: in the whole process did he refer this issue to the IPCC for discussion on the police's Code of Practice?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, it has been clearly stated in the Independent Police Complaints Council Ordinance that the IPCC's functions include to observe, monitor and review the handling and investigation of reportable complaints by the Commissioner of Police (Commissioner), and to make recommendations in respect of these investigations or to make recommendations to the Commissioner regarding the complaints concerned; or even to make recommendations in respect of such practice or procedure adopted by the police that might lead to reportable complaints.
I have made it very clear that the purpose of our procurement of the Long Range Acoustic Device is for broadcasting purposes only and the procedure was 2566 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 the same as our procurement of other acoustic devices. Hence, when we made our procurement, the main consideration was its safety and whether they could cater for the needs of the police. When we found that they met our requirement, we made the purchase. Of course, if the IPCC finds it necessary to have a better understanding of this issue, the police are ready to provide explanation or even invite members of the IPCC to observe how the device is used and our training procedure on site, we are willing to make the necessary arrangements. If the IPCC finds it necessary, we will fully support its work.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Council has spent close to 25 minutes 30 seconds on this question. Fifth question.
Command and Control Communications System of Hong Kong Police Force
5. MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): President, the police's Third Generation Command and Control Communications System (CC3) broke down in the morning of 24 October 2012, during which some consoles of the Hong Kong Island Regional Command and Control Centre could not communicate with front-line police officers through CC3, and could only maintain communication with them using the Force Mobile Radio Telephone. CC3 resumed normal only after 17 hours at 4 am the following day. The police have ruled out the possibility of man-made sabotage or hacker intrusion causing damages to CC3. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the direction along which the police are currently investigating the causes of the aforesaid failure, as well as the impact of the failure on the work of front-line police officers;
(b) of the number of cases of system failure (including all incidents) of CC3 that have occurred so far since its coming into operation at the end of 2004, as well as the causes of the failure; and
(c) whether the police have conducted regular reviews on the effectiveness and security issues, and so on, of the CC3; if they have, of the frequency of such reviews; if not, the reasons for that?
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): When handling the supplementary questions of the last question, I had wrongly read the number of supplementary questions raised by Mr Charles Peter MOK, I thus allowed him to jump the queue and ask his question first. Here, I would like to apologize to those Members who should have the chance to ask a supplementary question. Mr MOK, you have already asked supplementary questions for seven times.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, the police's CC3 came into operation by phases since December 2004. The system was fully implemented in March 2006 with the objectives of increasing the operational efficiency of the Force so that more effective manpower deployment and resource utilization can be achieved, and enhancing the quality and security of the communications system and internal transmission of information.
My reply to the Member's question is as follows:
(a) and (b)
Regular repair and maintenance of CC3 has been conducted since its operation in 2004. A serious failure of CC3 occurred on 24 October 2012 at about 11.05 am, in which the radio communications between various consoles of Regional Command and Control Centres and some front-line officers were affected.
The police's Information Systems Wing (ISW) and the system provider have conducted an in-depth investigation into the failure on the day in question, and carried out a number of simulation tests on the system. It has been ascertained that the failure was not related to hacker intrusion or system ageing. There was a software problem during system extension which led to system instability.
The failure was due to the police's extension of CC3 to the Airport District where the system had not been adopted. Since most of the police districts had moved to CC3, the police had to undertake system extension to enhance cross-district radio communications for officers of Airport District. On the day in question, there were 2568 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
irregularities due to some software problem when CC3's radio coverage was extended to the Airport District, leading to a malfunction of the radio cell sites connected to the main server of the Hong Kong Island (HKI) communications system zone. Given that the main server of the HKI zone is linked to some cell sites in Kowloon and New Territories zones, the radio coverage of the latter two zones was also slightly affected.
The failure in question only affected the radio communications between some front-line officers and the regional console. The ISW and the system provider undertook emergency repair at once and carried out some improvement measures. Affected front-line officers immediately switched to the Force Mobile Radio Telephone to maintain communications with the regional console. The failure did not affect the emergency and non-emergency services provided by various police regions to the public. During the period of system failure, a total of 179 emergency calls were received and processed by the Force and officers all arrived at the scenes within the pledged response time.
The police are now reviewing the procedures of system alteration or extension with the system provider. To avoid similar failures, certain improvement measures have been adopted, such as multiple reviews of system alteration or extension plans and procedures, examination of further strengthening of system fallback, and study of recovery methods against different failure scenarios. In-depth reviews are still underway to ensure that all system alterations will not be affected in the future.
(c) The police and the system provider conduct monthly system testing and review system operations every month to ensure that the system is in good conditions and to guard against serious failures. Furthermore, the police and the system provider will, prior to any major activities or important events, assess whether the system can cope with the additional operational needs arising from such activities or events and make appropriate system resource deployment, such as strengthening the radio coverage at locations LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2569
with high usage rate and increase the capacity of communications channels.
MR IP KWOK-HIM (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has stated in his main reply to parts (a) and (b) that the failure did not affect the emergency and non-emergency services provided by various police regions to the public. I am well aware of this point. However, from what I learnt about the actual situation at that time, after CC3 had broken down, police officers immediately switched to communicate with the Force Mobile Radio Telephone; yet, they could only communicate but could not locate each other. After this incident, will the Secretary review this problem to see how it can be solved? I ask this question because in case there is another system failure, it may pose a serious threat to the police officers who are on duty. Will the authorities review this problem?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I must emphasize that CC3's backup system was in operation at that time. The major problem in this incident was that there was a sudden increase in blind spots, causing the police officers at the blind spots to lose contact with the consoles. The design of our backup system is to cope with contingencies of this kind, and the use of the Force Mobile Radio Telephone is also one of our backup plans. All these are some of the backup measures when we develop CC3.
I must reiterate that when the backup system was in operation, the overall coverage had only dropped about 7% to 8% in the entire HKI Region; it was not true that all police officers in the HKI Region had lost contact with the consoles. Moreover, at that time, other means are adopted to support front-line officers to give their full strength. For example, Emergency Unit vehicles and patrol cars were informed to give relevant support.
Concerning the review, we have already confirmed that this system failure was caused by a software problem. We have already taken a number of preventive measures: firstly, we have stopped all the system extension as this failure was caused by the extension; secondly, in every system alteration exercise, procedures such as multiple reviews, verification and confirmation would be conducted before the system can formally be used; thirdly, we will conduct tests 2570 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 and prepare reports every month; fourthly, I will order on-site supervision for every system alteration, and the alteration procedures and methods will have to be agreed by both sides. Besides, when we have to test the system, we will always choose the time period with the lowest usage so as to minimize the impact of any potential system failure. In addition, we will strengthen some basic security measures. With this review, though we have ruled out the possibility of our system being hacked, it reminds us of the importance of system security itself. Therefore, we will enhance basic security measures relating to the system, including paying special attention to the security of rooms and manual operation.
As stated just now, a review is currently in progress to study different recovery methods. We want to know how the system design can be improved. For example, we will look into the design of backup plans, whether the capacity should be enlarged and, above all, "the multi-link". From this experience, we have learned that if the backup system is multi-linked, when there are problems with System A, it can then be backed up by System B, followed by System C; or both Systems B and C can be used for back up at the same time. If we can improve the design of CC3 to make it multi-linked and equipped with multiple backups, it will become a system with better security and efficiency.
MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): President, does this serious failure indicate that there are some fatal weaknesses with CC3 or is it outdated? Has the Government considered upgrading the whole system to the fourth generation to ensure that police communications will be stable and free from system failure? If CC3 will not be upgraded, what remedial measures will be taken by the authorities?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, we and the service provider clearly understand what has gone wrong with CC3 this time. The failure was caused by a software problem occurred during system extension, and this problem had nothing to do with system ageing or deficiency. Why did it take so long to fix this failure? First of all, CC3 is a considerably large system, and its checkup will certainly take time. After doing the checkup, we had to spend some time for a risk assessment to identify areas being affected and, most importantly, avoid the problems of the system to aggravate because we were LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2571 afraid that in repairing part A, part B or part C might be unexpectedly affected. Therefore, we must be prudent in conducting this assessment.
Besides, we had to make sure that this incident was not caused by hacker intrusion as hacking might be done in phases and it was necessary to rule out this possibility. Meanwhile, we had to ascertain if this failure was caused by man-made sabotage. All these tasks were time-consuming. When we were working on these tasks, we also had to spare some efforts to test the hardware to see if we had to replace any parts of the system. Lastly, we had to test the backup system. Just now, I have emphasized that there is a backup system; and in connection with the problems identified in the backup system, we can enhance the multi-link system. We also have to consider whether the capacity of the backup system should be enlarged.
This time, it took as long as 17 hours to fix the system failure ― the first time the system failed ― because we must discuss the problem with experts and collect system data bit by bit. All these tasks took time. What was more, when we had somehow decided on the recovery plan, we had to study whether this recovery plan would create an unexpected chain effect. It must then be carefully studied by external experts as well as experts inside the police.
Lastly, we had to sort out whether there would be any backup plans in case the recovery plan failed. Therefore, a lot of work had to be done in these 17 hours. As the system failure was not directly related to the functioning or ageing of CC3, at this moment, we still consider that CC3 is able to meet the needs of the police.
MR TAM YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, this failure is quite serious because, as stated by the Acting Secretary just now, it had lasted for 17 hours. Although he said that the cause of the failure has been identified and four improvement measures have been implemented, given the serious nature of this failure, I am still concerned about how these four improvement measures can prevent the recurrence of similar incident. Moreover, in the course of system failure, police officers had to use radio telephones as substitutes; yet, many communication systems actually have their blind spots. In this connection, if police officers come across any blind spots of CC3 during patrol, are they required to report, so that the police would have sufficient information for 2572 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 developing a database or a map of blind spots? It can be a way to improve CC3.
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, it is an established procedure for police officers to report any blind spots they find during patrol. The information security colleagues in the police will make improvement measures at once. As a matter of fact, such improvement work is constantly underway to fix the problem of blind spots after the introduction of CC3. The police have also put these improvements on record. Therefore, the police actually share the concern of Mr TAM, and they are careful, serious and vigorous in their attempts to eliminate all potential blind spots.
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): President, CC3 was introduced in 2004. However, when I read the main reply, it seems to me that as the transition from CC2 to CC3 was not smooth, the police have to carry out system extension for CC3. My question for the Secretary is: Apart from the Airport District, are there any other districts which have not yet undergone system extension? When will the full extension be completed?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, the Member is correct. CC3 currently only covers existing at-grade police districts as the police have built many transmitting stations and assess facilities for these police districts to use this system. Given that the Airport Authority has set up its own communications system at the Airport, the Airport District was in fact using the Airport's independent communication system. Hence, we tried to extend the coverage of CC3 in this exercise. As all other police districts are using CC3, we thought it would be better for the Airport District to use this system to communicate with other police districts. This was what we wanted to do all along.
Of course, before doing that, we had to consider the development works of the Airport's communication system, and we thought it was then the right timing for the extension. Therefore, the police extended the coverage of CC3 to the Airport at the time when this extension subsequently caused system failure. Are there any places pending to be covered? Yes, that is the MTR District. Upon LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2573 the completion of new MTR lines, CC3 will be introduced to the relevant police districts. As new lines are new facilities, we will use this new system for sure. However, as the MTR Corporation has developed its own system in its previous construction of old lines, some police officers of the MTR District are not using CC3 right now. In addition to the new lines, we plan to introduce the use of CC3 to these relevant MTR police units in due course, that is, when the public address and communication systems of the MTR Corporation can work well with our arrangement.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): In my supplementary question, I asked whether there were any police districts, apart from the Airport District, which had not yet been equipped with CC3. Yet, the Secretary replied by saying that CC3 would be introduced to police units on the new MTR lines. Was he trying to say that, apart from the Airport District, all the existing police districts were equipped with CC3?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, apart from the existing MTR District, are there any other police districts which have not yet used CC3?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): In fact, the Airport District has already changed to use CC3 after this extension project. However, as the CC3's extension project is carried out in phases at the Airport and phase one was successful, police officers are now using CC3 at the Airport. Yet, given that CC3 is composed of various systems ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, the Member is asking whether there are other police districts which have not yet used CC3.
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): We are now using CC3 at the Airport District, and I have just explained the situation of the MTR District. Apart from that, there is no police district which has not yet used CC3. All police districts are now using CC3.
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): President, it is heard that the police have repeatedly claimed that this set of devices will not cause any harm to human body. However, there is hearsay doubting this claim. I would like to ask the Secretary whether the manufacturer has guaranteed that this set of devices ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr NG, which part of the main reply are you referring to when you ask your supplementary question?
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): I am asking about this set of devices.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): What devices?
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): I am talking about the set of communication devices which are used by police officers. There have been doubts as to whether the use of these devices by police officers will cause ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please continue with your question.
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): …… any harm to their bodies. On this issue, the police have repeatedly stated that this set of devices will not cause any harm to human body, but there is much query among the public. In view of this, I would like to ask whether the police will produce the safety guarantee provided by the manufacturer to prove that the devices are safe to users' health.
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SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Cantonese): President, in the purchase of this system, we had already made sure that it met the system design specifications required by the police and Hong Kong in terms of its quality and safety. Also, none of the police officers have reported to the Police Force, saying that using this system has caused harm to their bodies.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Council has spent more than 22 minutes on this question. Last question seeking an oral reply.
Measures to Protect Employment Opportunities of Local Workers in Local Airline Market
6. MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): President, it has been reported that Cathay Pacific Airways (CX) is preparing to launch a "Cross Base Flying Scheme" (the new scheme), under which flight attendants based in Singapore, Bangkok and San Francisco are allowed to swap the routes they serve. For example, under the new scheme, Bangkok-based crew may work on flights between Hong Kong and San Francisco. It has been learnt that CX has all along recruited expatriates from abroad to serve as Hong Kong-based flight attendants and work on flights travelling to and from Hong Kong, but these employees are required to obtain work visas from the Hong Kong Government and reside in Hong Kong, and they are also entitled to housing allowances. Some CX employees have pointed out that the arrangement made by CX for non-Hong Kong-based crew to work on flights travelling to and from Hong Kong is tantamount to shifting local posts to overseas cities where staff costs are lower. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether non-Hong Kong-based CX employees are required to obtain work visas from the Hong Kong Government for working on flights which stop over in Hong Kong; if not, of the reasons for that;
(b) of any requirement in the regulations for the aviation industry that local airlines licensed by the Air Transport Licensing Authority should accord priority to local workers in filling the posts created by them; and
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(c) whether it will take any measures to prevent locally registered airlines from employing non-Hong Kong-based employees to work on flights with Hong Kong as the operation centre, so as to protect local workers' employment opportunities?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, in response to Mr LEE's question, we have gathered information from CX about its "Cabin Crew Cross-Base Flying Initiative" (the new Initiative). According to the information provided by CX, the airline has established seven outport bases in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Vancouver, Toronto, London, Singapore and Bangkok respectively to serve the routes between Hong Kong and these destinations. At present, CX has employed about 950 outport base crew, which is about 10.4% of its total crew. The new Initiative mentioned in the question only involves three outport bases, namely San Francisco, Singapore and Bangkok, and will last for one to three months. The new Initiative will be launched as a trial on a voluntary basis to roster those volunteer crew from San Francisco on the Singapore and Bangkok flights, and volunteer crew from Singapore and Bangkok on San Francisco flights. CX will gauge the feedback from participating outport base crew and review the result of the new Initiative in order to decide if the new Initiative will be applied to other outport bases.
According to CX, the new Initiative will only involve a swap of duties of relevant participating outport base crew on the destinations originally served by them. Neither the total number of flights served by the outport base crew nor the number of local crew serving these flights and their respective flight hours will be affected. The new Initiative does not involve creation of new posts or outsource of local jobs to overseas. The flying arrangements, salaries, allowances, promotions of local crew and so on will not be affected by the new Initiative.
In response to Mr LEE's question, my reply comprises the following three points:
(a) In accordance with Annex 9 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, that is, facilitation of international air transport by means of simplified procedures, all contracting parties are obliged to allow entrance of the operating flight crew members without visas if they LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2577
can present the relevant documentation. The obligation applies to Hong Kong.
According to section 9(1) of the Immigration Ordinance (Cap. 115) of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, where a person, who does not enjoy the right of abode or right to land in Hong Kong, arrives in Hong Kong as a member of the crew of an aircraft under an engagement requiring him/her to leave within seven days on that or another aircraft as a member of its crew, then he/she may land in Hong Kong without the permission of an immigration officer or immigration assistant and remain until the departure of the aircraft on which he/she is required by his/her engagement to leave.
Crew members employed by the airlines may enter and remain in Hong Kong for at most seven days according to the above provision and need not apply to the Immigration Department for visa for employment in Hong Kong.
(b) Among the various rules and regulations in regulating the aviation industry, including the policies and guidance published by the International Civil Aviation Organization and the Civil Aviation Ordinance (Cap. 448), there are no specific requirements that priority must be given to local employees in filling the vacancies of a local airline. According to the requirements set out in the Air Transport (Licensing of Air Services) Regulations (Cap. 448A), an aircraft registered in Hong Kong must apply for the relevant licence from the Licensing Authority prior to its operation of scheduled journeys in relation to Hong Kong. The abovementioned Regulations have not specified that the operator should accord priority to local residents to fill the vacancies in relation to the provision of the relevant services.
In addition, the Civil Aviation Department will issue Air Operating Certificates to airlines in accordance with relevant local aviation regulations and the standards and guidance as stipulated by Annex 6 to the International Civil Aviation Convention. To ensure aviation safety, the relevant civil aviation regulations, international standards and guidance have specific requirements in respect of the technical skills, professional ability and physique of the flight crew, so as to 2578 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
ensure that crew members are capable of dealing with airlines' work. The nationality or origin of the crew is not a factor for consideration.
(c) To maintain its competitiveness and provide safe and appropriate services to the travelling public, an airline will take into consideration its operating needs, customer requirements and business strategies when deciding its human resources policies. Given the operational needs of the aviation sector, it is an industry-wide practice to employ crew members with different nationalities. There are no indications that CX is outsourcing its local jobs to overseas. We believe airlines will strike a balance between operational efficiency, legal compliances, service quality and staff requirements when making plans on resources deployment.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): President, as we can see from the Secretary's reply, the Government has indeed "colluded with the business sector", favouring the big consortiums such as CX without imposing any restriction to monitor the employment of local workers and staff. It even believes CX's words. However, if you believe CX, you actually have got no logic. The hourly wage of flight attendants in Bangkok, which is one fifth less than that of flight attendants in Hong Kong, is much lower. If they may fly to San Francisco, how can it not affect the local flight attendants? This is a clear question of logic. It is definitely a zero-sum situation. If the number of times they fly increases, the number of times the local staff fly will be reduced for sure. How can the Secretary believe such words?
So I would like to ask the Secretary, will you genuinely face up to the issue of according priority to the employment of local staff and expressly prescribe in the Air Operating Certificate that priority should be given to employing local staff, and that local staff shall take up a bigger proportion? Will you do so? If not, you are actually sacrificing the employment opportunities of local workers.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which Secretary will reply? Secretary for Transport and Housing, please reply.
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SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, regarding Mr LEE's supplementary question, I would like to make it clear that this new Initiative on trial only involves redeployment among the outport base crew. It has absolutely nothing to do with the flights of the local staff. Thus it will not give rise to any change in the local staff's working time, flights, total working hours, and so on.
Another point is, as in the case around the world, owing to the international nature and operating needs of the aviation industry (including the need to use different languages or receive people of different nationalities), it is a general practice in the industry to employ staff of different nationalities. Hence, airlines need to formulate appropriate plans on deployment of human resources in response to their operational needs, demands of passengers from different places and overall business strategies, so as to maintain their competitiveness and public confidence in the quality of their services. This is a worldwide practice. Therefore we do not find the need to rigidly prescribe the proportion of Hong Kong staff to be employed.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has not answered me whether a proportion will be prescribed. I did not say that all the staff employed should be local workers, but he has put it in such a way that it seems I requested that only local workers should be employed, so he replied that expatriates should be recruited. Now the question is, is he willing to set a proportion? If he is even unwilling to set a proportion, how can he be regarded as being concerned with local workers?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEE, the Secretary has just given his answer with regard to the matter of proportion. Let me see if the Secretary has anything to add.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, actually I have already answered the Member's supplementary question, but I would like to give further comments in brief.
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As a matter of fact, CX's outport base crew currently accounts for only 10% of the 9 000 cabin crew members. Concerning the proportion of expatriates ― to be more precise, outport base crew ― to local staff employed by CX over the past 10 years, local staff has taken up the vast majority. The number of outport base crew recruited by CX in the past 10 years was only about 1 300. Thus, in view of such a trend, we do not see the so-called expansion.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary has pointed out in part (b) of the main reply that "there are no specific requirements that priority must be given to local employees in filling the vacancies of a local airline". In other words, it is also possible that "priority must be given to non-local employees in filling the vacancies". That is to say, non-local workers are now competing with local workers for jobs or working hours. In fact, CX's present approach which allows outport base crew to swap their routes will deprive local workers of their employment opportunities. I would like to ask Secretary Matthew CHEUNG of the Labour and Welfare Bureau, being the Secretary who is in charge of the Labour Department, how are you going to protect local workers' employment opportunities, so that such opportunities will not be taken away from local workers by foreign labour?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Secretary YAU Shing-mu has just stated clearly that this is a trial scheme of the airline concerned. This is the first point. Secondly, the scheme does not affect the number of local posts in the company. It does not entail any increase or reduction of posts. There is no such impact. It merely involves redeployment among outport base crew with no impact on the local staff's employment opportunities. If the airline concerned wants to bring in air stewardesses or flight attendants to Hong Kong, of course we will conduct strict vetting. However, under the present Supplementary Labour Scheme of the Labour Department, no air stewardess or flight attendant has ever been brought in, so there is no cause for concern.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Has your supplementary question not been answered?
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MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): President, even if it is a trial scheme, it will still deprive the local staff of their employment opportunities. I would like to ask the Secretary how he will protect local workers.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Secretary, do you have anything to add?
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): As I have stated explicitly and Secretary YAU Shing-mu has also explained clearly, this is simply redeployment among the outport base crew which will not affect the staff in the Hong Kong headquarters. This point is very important.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): President, I believe the Secretary might have misunderstood ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG, the Secretary has already replied. If you wish to debate with the Secretary, please do it on another occasion. Please sit down.
MR YIU SI-WING (in Cantonese): President, regarding the Cross Base Flying Scheme which CX is preparing to launch, has any airline introduced the same or similar practice overseas? If the answer is in the affirmative, being an international metropolis, if Hong Kong forbids the launch of the Cross Base Flying Scheme by administrative means, will such an act be regarded as protectionism and thus affect Hong Kong's reputation? Or what is worse, will airlines abroad consequently adopt the same tactic and restrict the employment of Hong Kong flight attendants?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which Secretary will reply? Secretary for Transport and Housing, please reply.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, such a practice of redeploying cabin crew, which is relatively flexible 2582 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 and adjustable, is commonly adopted by airlines around the world. To our knowledge, British Airways, Japan Airlines and Korean Air allow outport base crew to engage in flight services outside their own base. The arrangements of these airlines are actually far more flexible than the Cabin Crew Cross-Base Flying Initiative currently proposed by CX. CX's trial scheme, which merely allows outport base crew to swap their routes, will absolutely have no impact on the working hours and remunerations of local workers.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, let me put on the headset first.
This Government always favours outsiders. When vessels arrive at the port in Hong Kong, while all countries in the world require the use of clean fuels, we allow the use of unclean fuels. This is already something outrageous under the maritime policy.
Let us not talk about pollution and focus on the employment issue now. Someone informed the two Secretaries about the requirement of the Civil Aviation Department, and though such a requirement had not been abused before, it might be abused. Now this trial scheme requests the staff from those countries where the salary is one fifth lower to take up the job undertaken by Hong Kong people under the seven-day rule, and you said there would not be any change. Of course there would not be any change, because the scheme has not yet been implemented. Once implemented, it will bring forth changes. How can you reply in such a way? Now I want to ask you, first, did you ask CX if its trial spots would not be extended? Second, how can you guarantee that the proportion will remain unchanged? You can just answer these two questions.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, please sit down if you have finished asking your question.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): Has CX consulted you? Let me quote …… I have just received a copy of "CX World" from my mailbox today. Someone sought my advice and thanked Members for reading the letter ……
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, you are not supposed to make any comments.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): They have clearly stated that they will cut costs.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have already raised your supplementary question. Please sit down and let the Secretaries reply.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, you are brilliant.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, please sit down.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): One question with two targets.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Which Secretary will reply? Secretary for Transport and Housing, please reply.
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, just now my answer was already very clear. This trial scheme will be piloted in three outport bases first. After the trial, they will certainly gauge the views of the staff ― mainly outport base crew ― and then decide whether it will be further extended.
Members are worried whether this scheme will affect the employment opportunities, remunerations and other aspects of the local staff in Hong Kong. As far as we understand it, if you say CX is going to replace Hong Kong staff with foreign staff, we actually did not see such a case. Why did I say so? Because CX has indicated that under its recruitment plan for next year, it will recruit about 570 people, and among these 570 people, more than 500 will be 2584 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 locals. Hence, the company's plan is to recruit local people as the majority, thereby providing more employment opportunities to the locals.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): He did not answer my question.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Please repeat the part which you think the Secretary has not answered.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): My first question was, how far will this scheme be extended? Did CX tell him about it, and did he make any inquiries? He did not answer that. Secondly, if it is extended, how will the present proportion be maintained? He said that CX would recruit 570 people, and 500 people …… it is just a waste of time. For heaven's sake ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): You have already raised your supplementary question. Please sit down and let me ask the Secretary to reply. Secretary, will the scheme be extended, and after it is extended, how will the proportion be maintained?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, as I have mentioned earlier, CX currently has seven outport bases. This time the trial scheme will be carried out in three outport bases first. After it has been piloted in these three outport bases, the company will gauge the views of the staff and review the result. Only then will it decide whether the scheme will be implemented in other outport bases. Nevertheless, let me stress that such redeployment will only affect the outport base crew, the local staff in Hong Kong will not be affected at all.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, the Secretary has already replied.
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MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): So that is acting frankly and openly, right?
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr LEUNG, please sit down.
MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, both Secretaries have continuously stressed that this scheme will not affect the number of local cabin crew members and their flying hours, and the Secretary has also emphasized that this new scheme does not involve creating new posts. However, I wonder if the Secretary has further asked CX its purpose in implementing such a scheme. Just now he kept saying that CX would gauge and listen to the views of the staff. What views from the staff does it want to hear? Does it want to know if the staff find this scheme desirable? Or does CX wish to know whether the staff can handle the work even without increase in manpower after such redeployment is made? If that is the case, does that mean the chance of creating new posts is lost? Therefore, can the Secretary tell us in detail, according to what you have found out or learnt from CX, what is the actual ultimate objective of this new scheme?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, actually we have asked CX this question put by the Member. As far as we understand it, the original idea of this scheme came from the outport base crew. Since some outport base crew frequently flew to Hong Kong from places such as Bangkok or Singapore, serving the same route for a long period, they found a lack of changes. As a result, they proposed that if they could swap their routes, they would be able to enhance the knowledge of their job. Thus the company will make a trial in response to see if such redeployment is a good practice.
I would like to add another point. Many of the outport base crew are, in fact, Hong Kong people. They were recruited abroad only because they lived abroad. Hence, if there can be more flexibility and chances of redeployment in their working environment, it will be, after all, a good thing for the staff.
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DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): President, the Secretary's main reply is quite interesting. He speaks as though he was the company's representative, telling us that the company has no problem, it is operating normally and has considered the needs of various parties, so and so forth. That is all for the Secretary's reply, and there is no further comments. When Members bring up a question in the Council, of course they wish to know whether the Policy Bureaux are concerned and care about the issue, whether they will follow it up, or under what circumstances they will work in the so-called "appropriately proactive" way.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN, please raise your supplementary question.
DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): My supplementary question is, the Secretary seems to have great confidence in CX. However, CX has stated clearly that this scheme will be extended if its trial is successful. Besides, I would like to give the Secretary some supplementary information and hope that he will reply again: in 2012, the number of local staff has increased 5%, but the number of outport base crew has increased 15%. Secretary, may I know if you will take any further follow-up action when you follow up this issue, and how you will follow it up?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): President, with the relevant information we have in hand, the most important thing is that we have to ascertain whether this scheme really seeks to meet CX's operational needs and whether it goes beyond our regulation and control. Regarding the growth of local staff and outport base crew, as I have mentioned earlier, in the past 10 years, CX recruited 100-odd people on average every year. This is a steady figure without any drastic increase. The number of outport base crew recruited in the past 10 years was about 1 100, but the actual number of people who presently work in outport bases is only some 900.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): This Council has spent more than 23 minutes on this question. Oral questions end here.
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WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
Measures to Facilitate Media Reporting in New Central Government Complex
7. MS CLAUDIA MO (in Chinese): President, some reporters have relayed to me that the media reporting arrangements in the new Central Government Complex (new CGC) since its commissioning are a retrogression compared with those in the former Central Government Offices (CGO). For example, reporters have to make a detour and go through many doors when commuting between the East and West Wings of the new CGC. This is particularly inconvenient to television reporters carrying bulky video recording equipment. In addition, at present, the ground floor lobby of the Office of the Chief Executive is open to reporters generally only during the time when the Executive Council (ExCo) is having a meeting, but quite a number of ExCo Members often enter and leave the conference room using an access which is not visible to reporters. As a result, photojournalists are unable even to take shots of ExCo Members coming downstairs from the conference room, and reporters also find it difficult to conduct interviews with ExCo Members and officials. As a result, reporters are unable to monitor the work of the Government and the public's right to know is thus undermined. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it will allow reporters to use the direct access linking the East and West Wings of the new CGC, and open the gate of the West Wing for use by reporters to facilitate their reporting in the new CGC;
(b) whether it will make reference to the relevant arrangements in the former CGO, and allow reporters to go to the staff canteen for meals direct through the access between the West Wing of the new CGC and the canteen;
(c) whether it will open up the ground floor lobby of the Office of the Chief Executive to reporters during the time when there is no ExCo meeting, so as to give reporters the opportunities to interview officials entering or leaving that place during such time, just like the arrangements in the former CGO; and
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(d) whether it will require ExCo Members to use the main entrance when they attend ExCo meetings and to cease using the access which is not visible to reporters, so that reporters will have the opportunities to interview ExCo Members and to monitor their attendance at meetings (including whether they are absent from or late for the meeting, or leave the meeting early)?
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Chinese): President, the Administration attaches great importance to press freedom, and has made every effort to facilitate media reporting in a bid to enhance transparency of policy implementation. With the commissioning of the new CGO, the Administration has adopted corresponding measures to facilitate media reporting, taking into account three major factors, namely the operational needs of the new CGO, the arrangements for media reporting, and the flow and order of people there. For example, two designated press areas have been set up, one each at the East Wing and West Wing lobbies, with a reporters' passageway connecting the two Wings to facilitate media reporting. The passageway links up the lobbies of the East and West Wings and adjacent to it is a reporters' room with audio-visual and WiFi facilities, and so on, for use by the media. In addition, audio-visual facilities are available for the media at the above two designated press areas, the G/F auditorium and the 2/F Conference Hall. With a view to providing further convenience to the media while using the passageway, particularly reporters who carry bulky video recording equipment, the Administration Wing has been planning to carry out improvement works to install hold-open devices for certain fire doors of the passageway so that the doors will be kept open by electrical devices in times of non-emergency. Upon communication with the Hong Kong Journalists Association, improvement works have commenced and they are expected to complete before the end of this year.
The Administration's reply to the question is as follows:
(a) and (b)
The ground-floor concourse between the East and West Wing lobbies serves as a common foyer to a number of major conference rooms in the new CGO. Given that staff members and attendees of meetings often gather at the concourse and that not all meetings are open for public participation or press coverage, it is not appropriate LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2589
to open up the concourse to non-attendees of meetings. The gate at the West Wing is a vehicular access. In general, reporters taking press vehicles or taxis and holding valid CGO press cards may enter the West Wing lobby through the gate. There is a staff entrance adjacent to the vehicular gate at the West Wing. As this access directly leads to the Chief Executive's Office, as a matter of security, it is normally open to staff with valid staff identity cards only.
The turnstiles at the West Wing lobby are staff access to various floors (including the offices of a number of bureaux and offices). On account of operation and security, it is inappropriate to open up the passage for media use. Nevertheless, since the commissioning of the new CGO, media members can access the staff canteen on 1/F through the lobby of the East Wing, if they need any food and beverages.
(c) and (d)
The current Administration has taken new measures in opening up the ground floor lobby of the Chief Executive's Office for the purpose of press coverage when the ExCo is in meeting. There is also a common room in the press area for media use. The above new measures were implemented to provide as much press facilitation as we can so that reporters intending to wait until the end of an ExCo meeting may stay away from any unfavourable weather conditions and have a place for taking a break.
Corresponding facilities and arrangements for media coverage are in place in all government offices, including the East and West Wings of the new CGO. They are meant for facilitating the media in their coverage of government officials working there, having taken into account operational and security concerns. The Administration has no intention to alter the current practice.
ExCo Members may use any access of their own choice when entering or leaving the CGO. That said, the Administration will continue to encourage Members to use the main entrance when entering or leaving the Chief Executive's Office.
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Combating Pregnant Mainland Women Whose Spouses Are Not Permanent Residents of Hong Kong Giving Birth in Hong Kong
8. MR JEFFREY LAM (in Chinese): President, in April this year, the authorities introduced a series of administrative measures to step up efforts in combating pregnant Mainland women whose spouses are not Hong Kong permanent residents, commonly known as "doubly non-permanent resident pregnant women" (DNRP women), giving birth in Hong Kong. These measures included strengthening the interception of DNRP women not having the Confirmation Certificate on Delivery Booking (the Confirmation Certificate) at boundary control points. The Chief Executive-elect had also indicated that the quota for DNRP women to give birth in Hong Kong would be zero in 2013. It has been reported that despite the drop in the recent months in the number of cases of DNRP women, who do not have the Confirmation Certificate, crossing the boundary and rushing into the Accident and Emergency Departments (A&EDs) of public hospitals to give birth shortly before labour, some Mainland agents have been arranging DNRP women to engage in bogus marriage with Hong Kong residents and then come to Hong Kong to give birth. These agents also help these pregnant women reserve beds for delivery in private hospitals in Hong Kong. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of DNRP women who gave birth in Hong Kong since April this year; how this figure compares with that in the same period last year;
(b) of the number of cases of bogus marriage detected by the authorities since April this year and, among these cases, the number of those which were related to the purpose of giving birth in Hong Kong; the number of cases in which the persons involved were convicted;
(c) given that the aforesaid agents provide "through-train" services (including reservation of hospital beds, accommodation in Hong Kong and application for relevant documents after delivery, and so on) and their modes of operations are varied, whether the authorities have set up a dedicated department to combat the activities of these agents; if they have, of the details and the effectiveness; if not, the reasons for that;
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(d) whether the authorities will further step up the relevant administrative measures and impose heavy penalty on DNRP women who come to give birth in Hong Kong; if they will, of the details; whether the authorities will eradicate DNRP women giving birth in Hong Kong through introducing legislation; if they will, of the details; and
(e) given that the authorities have indicated that they would co-operate with the relevant Mainland departments and take joint law-enforcement actions to combat the activities of those agents, of the details and progress?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, the Government's established healthcare policy is to ensure that local pregnant women are given high standard obstetric services. They will be accorded priority, obstetric services will only be made available to non-local pregnant women when there is spare capacity. To this end, the Government has, in 2011, put in place a number of measures, including the setting of limit to the number of deliveries in Hong Kong in 2012 by non-local pregnant women.
The Government announced on 17 April that in 2013, there would not be any quota for non-local pregnant women, whose husbands are non-Hong Kong residents, to give birth in Hong Kong. Both public and private hospitals will not accept any bookings by non-local pregnant women for delivery in Hong Kong in 2013. Meanwhile, under the existing arrangements, Mainland pregnant women whose husbands are Hong Kong permanent residents or holders of the Permit for Proceeding to Hong Kong and Macao (One-way Permit) may make delivery bookings for 2013 at local private hospitals after antenatal checkup in Hong Kong and upon referral by the attending doctor, and be issued the Confirmation Certificate.
To complement the above healthcare policy, non-local pregnant women who are pregnant for 28 weeks or more have to produce a Confirmation Certificate issued by Hong Kong hospitals for checking by immigration officers when they enter Hong Kong or else they may be refused entry. Since late 2011, the Immigration Department (ImmD) has enhanced the relevant complementary immigration measures. The number of Mainland pregnant women gate-crashing 2592 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 the A&EDs without prior booking has dropped substantially from 150 per month during the period from September to December 2011, to 90 between January and April 2012. The monthly figure further dropped to 40 from May to August, and 25 in September and October, showing that the relevant administrative measures are effective.
The relevant departments will continue to step up the interception and enforcement actions against non-local pregnant women, including combating intermediaries involving in illicit activities to assist Mainland pregnant women to give birth in Hong Kong. The relevant departments will also maintain close liaison and adjust enforcement strategies according to the actual circumstances.
Replies to the five parts of the question are as follows:
(a) From April to October 2012, Mainland pregnant women whose husbands are non-Hong Kong residents gave birth to some 15 600 babies in Hong Kong, representing a drop by about 30% compared to some 21 290 during the same period in 2011.
(b) Under the existing special arrangements, Mainland pregnant women whose husbands are Hong Kong permanent residents or holders of One-way Permit may make bookings at local private hospitals for delivery in 2013. Such couple are required to submit the following documents to the private hospital concerned:
(i) A Hong Kong certificate of marriage, or a certificate of marriage notarised by a notary public office in the Mainland;
(ii) The husband's Hong Kong permanent resident identity card or Hong Kong identity card;
(iii) The husband's Permit for Proceeding to Hong Kong and Macao (if he is not a Hong Kong permanent resident); and
(iv) An oath taken by the Hong Kong husband to confirm the authenticity of the marriage certificate provided and/or their marriage relationship.
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Each couple will also be required to sign a consent form authorizing the authority to conduct checks with the relevant Hong Kong and Mainland departments on their marriage certificate, identity and other documents.
The Department of Health (DH) will closely monitor and conduct checks on the documents. The DH will enhance the checking with the ImmD and refer suspected cases to the law-enforcement agencies (LEAs) for follow-up actions in accordance with the law. The ImmD, police and DH will also enhance the communication with private hospitals and closely monitor doubtful cases of making delivery bookings through bogus marriages.
In addition, the ImmD has since last year stepped up inspection of marriage registrations between Hong Kong and Mainland residents. The ImmD will promptly investigate suspected cases and follow up with prosecution in accordance with the law. From April to October 2012, there were 445 persons suspected of involving in bogus marriages, among whom 136 were convicted of offences relating to bogus marriage and given imprisonment sentences ranging normally from five to 18 months. The ImmD does not have the breakdown on cases of making delivery bookings through bogus marriages.
(c) and (e)
To combat the problem of Mainland pregnant women gate-crashing the A&EDs to give birth in Hong Kong without delivery bookings, the Government established, in February 2012, a liaison mechanism with the Guangdong authorities to enhance the exchange of intelligence. At present, the LEAs of HKSAR have set up task forces to implement enhanced enforcement measures against illicit intermediaries assisting Mainland pregnant women to given birth in Hong Kong. These include stepping up the inspection of dubious intermediaries and referring doubtful intermediaries to the Guangdong authorities for follow-up actions. The police also closely monitors activities of the intermediaries through cyber patrol and will follow up with any illegal act detected in accordance with 2594 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
the law. In 2012, 12 individuals involved in illicit activities to assist Mainland pregnant women giving birth in Hong Kong (including intermediaries and cross-boundary vehicle drivers) were jailed and their sentences ranged from eight weeks to a year.
Apart from strengthening the inspection of non-local pregnant women and those suspected of assisting them to give birth in Hong Kong at immigration control points, the LEAs have, in conjunction with the Office of Licensing Authority of the Home Affairs Department, stepped up the inspection and enforcement against unlicensed guesthouses to deter non-local women from entering Hong Kong early and going into hiding in order to evade immigration examination.
(d) The LEAs are committed to combating Mainland pregnant women giving birth in Hong Kong through illicit means. From October 2011 to October 2012, the ImmD prosecuted 436 Mainland women having overstayed to give birth in Hong Kong. In 2012, the ImmD prosecuted three Mainland women who gave birth in Hong Kong through illicit means (one involved in conspiracy to defraud, one making a false representation to an immigration officer, one having in her possession a false instrument and making a false representation to an immigration officer). All Mainland women concerned were convicted and sentenced to imprisonment terms up to eight months.
Repatriation of a Libyan and His Family to Libya in 2004
9. MR JAMES TO (in Chinese): President, it was reported early this year that a Libyan dissident alleged that he and his family had been detained in Hong Kong by the authorities for about two weeks in 2004 and were forced to board a plane at the Hong Kong International Airport in March of the same year for repatriation to Libya, where he was subsequently subjected to torture and inhuman treatment. It was also reported that the dissident alleged that some intelligence officers from the United States and the United Kingdom had taken part in the repatriation operation and was then suing the United Kingdom Government for that, and the United Kingdom Government was conducting an LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2595 investigation into the case. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the details of the incident of the aforesaid family being detained in Hong Kong and subsequently repatriated to Libya, including the number of Libyans involved, their treatment during their stay in Hong Kong, who were responsible for arranging for their repatriation from Hong Kong and the transportation upon their arrival at the destination, as well as the rank of the government officers in Hong Kong who were responsible for handling the case and the resources involved;
(b) of the justifications for the authorities carrying out the detention and repatriation operations, or on the request of which organizations the authorities had taken such operations; whether such operations were taken in accordance with the established procedures; whether the authorities had, prior to repatriating the aforesaid family, questioned the family members, instituted any judicial proceedings and informed them in writing of the decision of extradition, expulsion or repatriation to Libya;
(c) whether it has assessed the liabilities and rights of and the role played by the authorities in this incident;
(d) whether the authorities, prior to carrying out the repatriation operation, had assessed if the Libyan would be subject to any torture or inhumane treatment after being repatriated to his country, and if such repatriation would contravene the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment; if they had, of the assessment outcome; if not, the reasons for that; and
(e) whether the authorities will conduct an investigation into this incident; if they will, of the expected time of completion and whether they will make public the investigation report; if no such investigation will be conducted, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, Member's question concerns a case reported in the media. We note that the parties concerned have already commenced legal proceedings in a jurisdiction outside Hong Kong. The 2596 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 legal representatives of the concerned parties have also issued a pre-action letter to the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government, indicating their intention to initiate legal proceedings in Hong Kong. At this stage, the Government will not make any comment.
Applications for HKSAR Passports Through Internet
10. DR LAU WONG-FAT (in Chinese): President, regarding applications for passports of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (HKSAR passports) through the Internet, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of applications for HKSAR passports in the past five years, together with a breakdown by the means of application (in person, by post, putting in drop-in boxes and online);
(b) of the number of cases in the past five years in which the applicants, who originally intended to apply for HKSAR passports through the Internet, had to submit their applications by other means because the digital photographs they submitted had been rejected; and
(c) whether it will improve the programme for accepting online submission of passport photographs in order to increase the success rate of applications for HKSAR passports through the Internet?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, the reply is as follows:
(a) In the past five years, the number of HKSAR passport applications through various means is as follows:
2012 Year 2008 2009 2010 2011 (as at 31 October 2012) Means/number of applications
(1) Application 159 039 138 118 178 942 188 698 174 627 by post*
(2) Application 321 992 295 795 297 235 304 277 275 323 in person
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2012 Year 2008 2009 2010 2011 (as at 31 October 2012) (3) Overseas 6 715 6 209 6 102 9 074 15 647 application
(4) Self-service 12 025 14 190 23 974 34 796 58 026 kiosk
(5) Online 4 633 17 308 33 634 50 617 38 318 application
Total: 504 404 471 620 539 887 587 462 561 941
Note:
* including drop-in applications
(b) The Immigration Department (ImmD) does not have information on the number of HKSAR passport applications which were submitted by means other than online application due to rejection of digital photographs.
(c) At present, 147 countries/territories have granted visa-free access or visa-on-arrival to HKSAR passport holders. One of the main reasons for HKSAR passports to be accepted widely is its high level of security standards, including photographs of applicants which would be accepted only if they meet the standards of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). To this end, the ImmD has stipulated the acceptable format of digital photographs for online applications to ensure they meet the ICAO standards.
The ImmD has set out the photograph requirements (including the acceptable format of digital photographs for online applications) in the leaflet attached to the application form and the relevant website
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Control of Unauthorized Extension of Business Area by Food Premises and Shops
11. MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Chinese): President, quite a number of members of the public have lodged complaints with me about the unauthorized extension of business area by some food premises and shops in the vicinity of their residences, which has caused not only noise and environmental hygiene nuisances but also the concern that the arrangements made by some food premises for their customers to use naked flame for hot pot meals on road sides might pose fire hazards. These residents have also pointed out that although the Government has taken law-enforcement actions, the problems have not actually been resolved. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the details of the measures and law-enforcement actions taken by the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (FEHD) in respect of the aforesaid problems in the past five years (together with the number of prosecutions instituted);
(b) whether the police had taken any law-enforcement actions under section 4 (Nuisances and miscellaneous offences), section 4A (Obstruction of public places) and section 32 (Removal of filth, and so on, and recovery of expenses) of the Summary Offences Ordinance (Cap. 228) in respect of the aforesaid problems in the past five years; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(c) whether the Fire Services Department (FSD) had followed up in the past five years the problem of food premises making arrangements for customers to use naked flame for hot pot meals on road sides; if so, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(d) given that the Office of The Ombudsman issued in this year an investigation report on the complaint against three government departments for failing to curb the unauthorized extension of business area by a hawker stall, of the details of the follow-up actions taken by the said departments in respect of the investigation report?
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SECRETARY FOR FOOD AND HEALTH (in Chinese): President, unauthorized extension of business by shops, being a street management issue, falls within the purview of a number of government departments.
The core function of the FEHD is to upkeep environmental hygiene. Hence, it accords priority to handling cases causing obstruction to scavenging operations or cases relating to unauthorized extension of restaurants, and takes enforcement action in the light of circumstances on the ground. The FEHD also actively participates in joint inter-departmental operations co-ordinated by the Home Affairs Department (HAD), in concert with other relevant departments taking action under their respective mandate to curb such unauthorized activities.
Depending on the circumstances of individual cases, the FEHD may take enforcement action in accordance with the following statutory provisions: - regarding licensed restaurants that carry on business beyond the confines of their licensed premises, the FEHD may institute prosecutions as appropriate against the licensees concerned under section 34C of the Food Business Regulation (Cap. 132X) for the offence of carrying on a food business otherwise than at the place delineated on the plan, or institute prosecutions under section 31(1)(b), as applicable to cases involving the conduct of restaurants by a non-licensee beyond the approved confines of the restaurants, as the case may be. - for restaurants or shops which have extended their business illegally and caused obstruction on the street, the FEHD may institute prosecutions under section 4A of the Summary Offences Ordinance (Cap. 228) for obstruction of public places; and
- for shops which have extended their business illegally and thus committed an offence of unlicensed hawking, the FEHD may take enforcement action under section 83B of the Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance (Cap. 132) for unlicensed hawking in the street.
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My reply to the four parts of the question is as follows:
(a) The FEHD is vigilant about tackling unauthorized extension of business area by restaurants and shops. On top of regular inspection, the FEHD takes blitz prosecution action to combat such irregularities.
Licensed restaurants
Table 1 below gives the number of prosecutions instituted by the FEHD against unauthorized extension of business area by restaurants in the past five years (from 2008 to September 2012):
Year
2012
2008 2009 2010 2011 (up to Number of September) prosecutions under the relevant provisions Under section 34C of 532 633 639 871 842 the Food Business Regulation (Cap. 132X)(1) Under section 31(1)(b) 31 30 35 22 6 of the Food Business Regulation (Cap. 132X)(2) Under section 4A of 1 648 1 801 1 556 1 736 797 the Summary Offences Ordinance (Cap. 228)(3) Total 2 211 2 464 2 230 2 629 1 645
Notes:
(1) Licensees carrying on business beyond the approved confines of their restaurants.
(2) Non-licensees carrying on food business beyond the approved confines of restaurants.
(3) Any person causing obstruction by placing any article in public places outside restaurants. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2601
The FEHD keeps under review the effectiveness of measures taken to regulate the unauthorized extension of business area by restaurants, and rolls out targeted measures against repeat offenders in districts where the problem is serious, so as to enhance the effectiveness of our enforcement action. These measures include: - stepping up inspection and taking targeted enforcement action;
- expediting the prosecution procedures and the execution of orders of licence suspension and cancellation;
- considering not to suspend the execution of orders of licence suspension or cancellation pending the determination of appeals, so as to guard against persistent unauthorized operations during the period of time when such orders are under appeal; and
- imposing in respect of applications for a provisional licence, an added requirement which stipulates that the applicants should not occupy areas beyond the confines of their premises. In case of breach, the provisional licence will not be issued. Should this requirement be breached after the issue of the provisional licence, a warning will be given to the licensee concerned requesting rectification of the irregularities. If the same irregularities are detected again, the provisional licence will be cancelled immediately.
The FEHD will continue to closely monitor the situation and review the effectiveness of its enforcement action, and introduce new measures where necessary. It will also take targeted enforcement action with reference to seasonal changes. For example, the department will step up, during the winter months, inspection of and enforcement action against restaurants providing food in season (for example, hot pots).
Shops
Unauthorized extension of business by shops, being a street management issue, falls within the purview of a number of 2602 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
government departments. The FEHD has actively participated in joint inter-departmental operations co-ordinated by the HAD, in concert with other relevant departments taking action under their respective mandate to curb such unauthorized activities.
Over the past five years (from 2008 to September 2012), the FEHD has instituted a total of 93 318 prosecutions against unauthorized extension of business by shops. Breakdown by year is set out in Table 2 below:
Year
2012
2008 2009 2010 2011 (up to Number of September) prosecutions under the relevant provisions Under section 4A of the Summary Offences Ordinance (Cap. 228)(1) Under section 83B of 16 365 18 637 20 077 22 137 16 102 the Public Health and Municipal Services Ordinance (Cap. 132)(2)
Notes:
(1) unauthorized extension of business to public places by shops, in particular obstructing scavenging operations or causing a public health issue.
(2) unauthorized extension of business to public places by shops, constituting illegal hawking activities.
(b) According to the information provided by the Security Bureau, the police will, in general, take joint enforcement action where necessary with the relevant government departments on request against restaurants and shops extending their business without authorization, upon receipt of complaints about unauthorized extension of business LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2603
of restaurants and shops. If the cases involve criminal activities, or may lead to a breach of public peace, pose immediate danger to the public or cause serious obstruction to traffic or road users, the police will intervene proactively and take enforcement action. Generally speaking, restaurants or shops will be prosecuted for obstruction caused by unauthorized extension of business under section 4A of Cap. 228 (obstruction of public places). From January 2010 to June 2012, a total of 3 527 prosecutions were instituted by the police under section 4A of Cap. 228. As for the number of prosecutions for unauthorized extension of restaurants and shops before 2010, the police does not have the relevant statistics.
(c) For hot pot activities outside restaurants, if such activities cause obstruction to the means of escape or emergency vehicular access, or affect the normal operation of fire service installations and equipment, the FSD will take enforcement action as appropriate in accordance with the Fire Services Ordinance (Cap. 95). Any unauthorized extension of business by restaurants identified during the FSD inspection will be referred to the FEHD for follow-up action.
(d) The Office of The Ombudsman issued this year an investigation report on a case of unauthorized extension of business area by a licensed stall in Kowloon, giving recommendations to the three relevant government departments which in its view had not resolved the problem in a timely manner. The departments concerned, including the FEHD, the Buildings Department (BD) and the Lands Department (LandsD), have accepted The Ombudsman's recommendations and taken the following follow-up actions:
(i) In response to the recommendations of The Ombudsman, the FEHD has stepped up enforcement action against the stall concerned. A total of 12 prosecutions were initiated by the FEHD against the licensee of the stall from October 2011 to November 2012. In early April 2012, the licensee removed the hawking paraphernalia in the unauthorized structures adjacent to the stall and ceased the unauthorized hawking 2604 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
activities. The illegal structures were also subsequently demolished;
(ii) The BD has reviewed the case in response to the views of The Ombudsman. As the stall extending its business without authorization was on unleased Government land, the BD considered that it did not have the power to take enforcement action under the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123) against the stall. Nevertheless, the BD has agreed that it should work closely with the LandsD to tackle the issue of unauthorized building works on Government land. With regard to this case, the BD and the LandsD have come to a consensus that the LandsD would handle the unauthorized structures on public pavement whilst the BD would provide expertise advice on the demolition work; and
(iii) The relevant District Lands Office (DLO) under the LandsD posted a notice under section 6(1) of the Land (Miscellaneous Provisions) Ordinance (Cap. 28) on the unauthorized structures in March 2012, demanding the occupant to cease occupation of the Government land on or before the specified date. DLO's site inspection in June 2012 revealed that all the unauthorized structures on the Government land concerned had been demolished and that the clearance work had also been completed.
Management of Public Pleasure Grounds
12. MR CHRISTOPHER CHUNG (in Chinese): President, regarding the management of public pleasure grounds (including leisure facilities) under the Leisure and Cultural Services Department (LCSD), will the Government inform this Council:
(a) given that section 20(1)(c) of the Pleasure Grounds Regulation (Regulation) (Cap. 132, sub. leg. BC) provides that "[n]o person shall, in any pleasure ground, sell, or offer or expose for sale, or let to hire, or offer or expose for letting to hire, any commodity or LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2605
article, unless, in pursuance of an agreement with the Director or otherwise in exercise of any lawful right or privilege, such person is authorized to sell or let to hire in such pleasure ground such commodity or article", whether the "commodity or article" referred to in this provision includes fee-charging personal instructions or coaching services;
(b) of the number of cases in which the hirers' rights to use the facilities were revoked due to their contravention of the Regulation in the past three years;
(c) of the measures currently taken by the LCSD to prevent hirers from misusing pleasure grounds, and the details;
(d) whether any decoy operations had been carried out in the past three years to detect misuse of pleasure grounds by hirers; if so, of the numbers of such operations and the cases involving contravention of the Regulation; if not, whether it will consider carrying out such operations; and
(e) given that the LCSD's current online electronic system for booking leisure facilities by the public is unable to show the whole-day booking situation of individual facilities, whether the authorities will consider enhancing the system to facilitate the public to get information about the time slots available for booking of leisure facilities more easily, so as to increase the utilization rates of facilities?
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Chinese): President,
(a) According to the Regulation, the words "commodity or article" for sale or hire in a pleasure ground refer to any tangible article offered for sale or hire, but do not include fee-charging personal instruction or coaching services.
The LCSD continually promotes "Sport for All" and encourages public participation in leisure activities and the delivery of such 2606 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
activities by organizations in order to foster a sporting culture in the community. At present, it is quite common for members of the public to teach their children or friends sports skills, or for paid coaches to teach learners at sports venues such as tennis and badminton courts. We consider it normal that beginners should learn sports skills and receive training at sports venues. The prohibition of paid coaching would not only detract from the LCSD's basic objective of promoting sport but would also fail to address a real public demand. In order to promote sport, we will allow coaching at the LCSD's sports venues, irrespective of whether or not it is paid for, and as long as it is carried out in an orderly manner and does not cause any nuisance to other venue users,.
(b) According to records, in the past three years there have been no cases of users' rights to use a pleasure ground managed by the LCSD being revoked due to violation of the Regulation.
(c) To prevent the misuse of recreation and sports facilities, the LCSD will arrange for staff to conduct venue inspections. People found to be misusing facilities will be asked to cease such conduct. If they do not do so, they will be asked to leave the venue. If a person is in breach of the Regulation and the breach persists despite repeated advice, venue staff will initiate a prosecution.
As from being used for recreational and sports purposes, the leisure venues managed by the LCSD are also available for hire by organizations for non-designated uses. At present, all applications for non-designated use of venues are processed according to the Guidelines for Use of Leisure Venues for Non-designated Use and the charging arrangement drawn up by the LCSD. In general, applicants are required to submit applications and relevant information to the department three months before the proposed date of use. The LCSD issues an approval letter to successful applicants, setting out the conditions for hiring the venue for non-designated use. For example, the hirer shall not allow any distribution or sale of refreshments or commodities, or solicit donations from participants of the function except with the prior permission of the LCSD. The LCSD may request the hirer to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2607
surrender the venue if the hirer breaches any of the LCSD's conditions of use.
The LCSD has also put in place a penalty system that applies to the hiring of venues by organizations. If an organization receives two default notices for breaching the booking arrangements and conditions of use of recreation and sports facilities for the same venue within a period of 12 months, it will be suspended from booking the LCSD venues for one year.
(d) The LCSD aims to prevent the transfer of user permits and the misuse of facilities by verifying hirers' identity documents and inspecting venues. Monitoring of the use of the venues in question is strengthened when complaints or reports of suspected misuse are received. Although no decoy operations have been carried out, the LCSD has arranged for "mystery users" to visit venues managed by the department to check that venue staff are fully implementing identity verification procedures.
According to our records, in the past three years, the LCSD has handled 16 cases of unauthorized transfer or suspected selling of user permits of leisure facilities. In a case investigated by the department in 2010-2011, a person was charged by the police with "using a false document", for using a booked facility with an altered booking acknowledgement. The person was subsequently convicted. For the remaining cases, with the exception of one that is still under investigation, no further action was taken due to insufficient evidence.
(e) At present, members of the public can enquire about the whole-day booking position at the LCSD's leisure facilities through the Leisure Link Telephone Services Centre or the more than 150 the LCSD booking counters, and can make bookings at booking counters, on the Internet, by telephone and at self-service kiosks.
The Leisure Link Internet Booking Service provides individual webpages for each of the following three periods: 7 am to 1 pm, 12 noon to 7 pm and 6 pm to 11 pm to facilitate public enquiries and 2608 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
the booking of consecutive sessions within a period of several hours. The page layout for booking reduces the pressure on the computer system and provides a quick booking service, especially during the peak hour for bookings and enquiries at 7 am.
The provision of a whole-day booking webpage would increase the loading on the Leisure Link system and affect regular functioning and the smooth handling of transactions. The LCSD therefore currently does not plan to set up a whole-day booking webpage.
Combating Smuggling of Rare Earth Elements
13. MR WONG TING-KWONG (in Chinese): President, as rare earth elements (REEs) are widely used in electronic products such as mobile phone batteries and flat-panel televisions, and so on, they have been praised as the "gold of industries". The Ministry of Industry and Information Technology has reportedly pointed out that, according to the statistics from the customs of overseas countries, the quantities of REEs imported from China from 2006 to 2008 were 35%, 59% and 36% respectively higher than the quantities exported based on the statistics from the customs of China; and the figure of last year from overseas customs was even 120% higher than that of China's customs. This reflects that the smuggling of REEs has been increasingly rampant, and the routes commonly taken are that REEs are smuggled to Hong Kong or Taiwan in containers, and then to countries such as Japan and Vietnam. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the number of cases of REEs smuggling detected by the Customs and Excise Department (C&ED) (and the percentage of such number in the total number of cases of smuggling), the quantity and value of the REEs involved (and the percentage of such value in the total value of all smuggling cases), and the number of persons involved in these cases, in each of the past three years;
(b) whether it has assessed if Hong Kong is a major transit point for REEs smuggling; if so, of the reasons for that; whether it has estimated the total quantity of REEs smuggled via Hong Kong last year; and
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(c) whether the authorities have faced any difficulties in combating REEs smuggling activities and whether they have collaborated with the Mainland customs in this regard; if there are difficulties, of the details; if they have collaborated with the Mainland customs, of the details; if they have not collaborated, the reasons for that; and how they will step up efforts in combating such smuggling activities?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, having consulted the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau, the Administration's response to the questions is as follow:
Under the Import and Export Ordinance (Cap. 60), it is an offence to import or export any unmanifested cargo. In addition, Schedule 1 to the Import and Export (Strategic Commodities) Regulations (Cap. 60G) specifies in detail the strategic commodities under control. Whether rare earth is subject to import and export control depends on whether its composition falls within the scope of Schedule 1 to Cap. 60G.
In the past three years, the smuggling cases detected by the C&ED do not involve any rare earth. So far, the C&ED has not detected any case involving smuggling of rare earth from the Mainland to the overseas countries via Hong Kong. There is neither any evidence suggesting that Hong Kong is a major transit port for such smuggling. The C&ED will continue to strictly enforce the Import and Export Ordinance (Cap. 60), and maintain close liaison with relevant Mainland law-enforcement agencies for intelligence exchange and joint monitoring and checks on suspicious items.
Handling of Unauthorized Building Works
14. MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Chinese): President, the Government has launched the Reporting Scheme for unauthorized building works (UBWs) in New Territories village houses (the Reporting Scheme), under which the Buildings Department (BD) will not require removal of registered eligible UBWs which have been subjected to safety inspection and certification. On the other hand, quite a number of members of the public have complained to me that after the media have uncovered the UBWs (including unauthorized garden trellises, 2610 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 basements, balconies, laundry racks and rooftop glasshouses, illegal structures made of tin plates, unauthorized enclosed balconies, and demolition of walls separating adjoining units without complying with the prescribed procedures) in some properties held by the Chief Executive, some politically appointed officials and some Unofficial Members of the Executive Council (ExCo) in the Kowloon and Hong Kong regions, the BD has not taken law-enforcement actions and instituted prosecutions vigorously. Members of the public feel a great repulsion towards the situation. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) as the Reporting Scheme is not applicable to UBWs in the Kowloon and Hong Kong regions, why the BD has not taken law-enforcement actions vigorously against the aforesaid UBWs; and
(b) whether the authorities will give this Council and the public a full account on how the Government has handled each of the UBW cases involving Chief Executive, politically appointed officials and Unofficial ExCo Members, including whether they have taken law-enforcement actions and instituted prosecutions; if they have, when such actions were taken and of the relevant details; if not, the reasons for that; and if no account will be given, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President,
(a) The issue of building safety is high on the Government's agenda. On the issue of UBWs, the Government has always put the safety of buildings in the first place, and takes a pragmatic stance to handle the issue through prioritization and categorization. To this end, we have formulated and implemented a clear enforcement policy against UBWs. The BD has also been following the principle of acting in accordance with the law and being impartial to all in taking appropriate actions on UBWs pursuant to the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123) (BO) and the prevailing enforcement policy.
Under the BO, all building works, with the exception of exempted works as defined under section 41 of the BO and designated minor LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2611 works items that may be carried out under the simplified requirements of the Minor Works Control System, require the prior approval and consent of the BD before such works may commence. Otherwise, regardless of the scale of such works, they will be regarded as UBWs and subject to enforcement action by the BD.
To enhance building safety, the BD has since 1 April of last year adopted a revised enforcement policy against UBWs by extending the coverage of actionable UBWs to include all UBWs (except minor amenity features) on the exterior of buildings, such as those on rooftops and podiums as well as those in yards and lanes of buildings, irrespective of their level of risk to public safety or whether they are newly erected. According to the revised enforcement policy, the BD is in effect taking enforcement actions against most actionable UBWs found on the façade and exterior of a building. The BD will actively respond to reports and, if there are confirmed actionable UBWs after inspection, issue advisory letters, advising the owners to rectify the irregularities of the properties as soon as possible. If the owner is not able to commence the rectification works within the specified period, the BD will issue statutory orders requiring the owners to carry out the necessary works to rectify the situation, and register the orders in the Land Registry. For owners who do not duly observe the statutory orders, the BD will consider instigating prosecution actions. Regarding the non-actionable UBWs, the BD will, depending on the situation, serve advisory letters or warning notices requesting the owners to remove the UBWs voluntarily.
As for UBWs in New Territories exempted houses (commonly known as "NT village houses"), the BD has put into effect an enhanced enforcement policy since 1 April of this year. On the fundamental premise of ensuring building and public safety as well as acting in accordance with the law, the BD adopted a pragmatic approach in tackling existing UBWs in NT village houses through categorization of UBWs and prioritization of enforcement. Under the enhanced enforcement policy, while the BD will continue to take immediate enforcement against UBWs constituting obvious hazard or imminent danger to life or property, and UBWs under 2612 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
construction or newly completed, it will also categorize UBWs constituting serious contravention of the law and posing higher potential risks to building safety as first round targets for progressive enforcement. In parallel, the BD has launched the Reporting Scheme for UBWs in NT village houses for other existing UBWs that constitute less serious contravention of the law and pose lower potential risks. Subject to regular safety inspection and certification by a technically competent person, the BD will not require removal of the eligible and registered UBWs during the period of enforcement against the first round targets unless such UBWs become imminently dangerous.
As mentioned above, the BD has all along been taking appropriate actions on UBWs under the principle of acting in accordance with the law and being impartial to all. However, the BD will, as a matter of established practice, accord priority to carry out site inspection for cases reported by members of the public or by the media involving senior government officials and celebrities with the objective of clearing any public concerns as soon as possible. After priority on-site inspection, the BD will take appropriate enforcement actions in accordance with the BO and the prevailing enforcement policy as mentioned above in an impartial manner. Irrespective of the identity of the owner, the BD will not make any special arrangements for enforcement actions.
(b) As mentioned above, irrespective of the identity of the owner, the BD will not make any special arrangements for enforcement actions. Besides, the Department will mention the inspection results and follow-up actions when replying to enquiries by the media or complainants.
Regulation of Dark Pool Trading
15. MR KENNETH LEUNG: President, the use of dark liquidity for the trading of equities and the development of so-called dark pools and dark orders has increased as a result of greater efficiency in handling dark pool trading achieved through the use of new technology. Dark pools, as alternative trading LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2613 platforms to public securities exchanges, allow financial institutions to trade large volume of shares, away from the eyes of the public, in anonymity and with lower trading fees. To increase the post-trade transparency of Hong Kong-listed securities executed in dark pools, The Stock Exchange of Hong Kong Limited introduced on 1 February 2011 a voluntary flagging requirement. According to the statistics of the Securities and Futures Commission of Hong Kong (SFC), trades executed in dark pools accounted for about 1.5% of the total turnover on the Hong Kong securities market from February 2011 to February 2012. In response to the growth in electronic trading activities, the SFC issued a "Consultation paper on the regulation of electronic trading" in July 2012 for public consultation. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) if it has taken an official stance on whether dark pool trading should be prohibited, regulated, or encouraged; if it has, of the details;
(b) whether it knows when the SFC will release the outcome and conclusions of the aforesaid consultation exercise; and
(c) whether the authorities will consider introducing legislation to regulate dark pool trading with a view to increasing its transparency, preserving the integrity of the local stock market and giving better protection to retail investors; if they will, of the legislative timetable, and whether they will conduct a separate public consultation on the proposed legislation?
SECRETARY FOR FINANCIAL SERVICES AND THE TREASURY: President, my reply to the Member's question is as follows:
(a) and (c)
Dark liquidity exists as market participants seek ways to execute their trades faster at better execution prices and to minimize market impact especially for large orders. In recent years, the handling of dark liquidity has been made more efficient at the advent of new technology. This has promoted the growth in electronic trading venues that do not provide any pre-trade transparency regarding the 2614 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
orders that are received by or reside in the trading venues. Such trading venues are known as dark pools.
Dark pool trading in Asia (including Hong Kong) is small compared with that in the United States and Europe. For example, the reported volume of trades executed in dark pools in Hong Kong accounted for about 2.2% of total market turnover as at end October 2012.
Under our regulatory system, dark pool operators are required to apply to the SFC for licences under Part V of the Securities and Futures Ordinance (SFO). The licences of dark pool operators are generally subject to a series of licensing conditions and their conduct is subject to ongoing supervision by the SFC. Moreover, like other licensees under the SFO, dark pool operators are required to comply with the provisions of the SFO and subsidiary legislation as well as other instruments made under the SFO, such as the Code of Conduct for Persons Licensed By or Registered with the SFC.
To better monitor dark pool activities in Hong Kong, the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong (SEHK) introduced a voluntary reporting requirement on 1 February 2011 such that exchange participants are required to flag all dark pool transactions in Hong Kong stocks as "ALP" (Alternative Liquidity Pool) when they report such transactions to SEHK. Since 3 October 2012, SEHK has mandated such reporting requirement in its Rules.
We note that regulators in the United States and Europe as well as the international regulatory bodies such as the International Organization of Securities Commissions have been keeping a close watch on the development of dark pools. Together with the regulators, we will continue to monitor these international developments to ensure that Hong Kong's regulatory regime is on par with international standards.
(b) In recent years, technological developments have led to the proliferation of automated electronic trading. Specifically, similar to other major markets, there is an increased use of arrangements that are commonly described as direct market access, as well as the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2615
use of complex trading algorithms in the conduct of trades and the implementation of trading strategies. As trading becomes an almost instantaneous process without significant human intervention, corresponding effort is required to ensure that trading via direct market access or by the use of trading algorithms are conducted in a fair and orderly manner so as to maintain integrity of the market.
In this connection, the SFC issued a "Consultation Paper on the Regulation of Electronic Trading" in July 2012, setting out proposals on the regulatory requirements for intermediaries to manage and mitigate the risks arising from trading in an automated environment. The proposals aim to provide a more coherent and comprehensive set of regulatory framework for electronic trading. They apply to licensed or registered persons who place orders to the markets electronically, including via the internet or by trading algorithms, for the trading of securities and futures contracts that are listed or traded on an exchange. The proposals of the consultation paper do not apply to dark pool operators or dark pools as trading platforms.
The public consultation has ended in September 2012. The SFC is considering the submissions made in response to the above consultation paper and will publish the consultation conclusions in due course.
Law Enforcement Against Computer Crimes
16. MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Chinese): President, the Government set up an Inter-departmental Working Group on Computer Related Crime (Working Group) in March 2000 to conduct a comprehensive review of the framework and environment within which law enforcement against computer crimes might be carried out. The Working Group made 57 improvement recommendations. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) with regard to the recommendations made by the Working Group which were adopted by the Government, whether the authorities have regularly reviewed the effectiveness of the efforts made by the 2616 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
relevant government departments in implementing such recommendations; if so, of the review results;
(b) with regard to the recommendations made by the Working Group which were not adopted by the Government, whether the authorities have taken any measures to address the relevant concerns raised by the Working Group; if so, of the details and effectiveness of such measures; and
(c) given that the report of the Working Group was completed more than a decade ago, since then the Internet has become more and more popular and the relevant information technology has made rapid development, whether the authorities have any plans to set up an inter-departmental working group again to conduct a comprehensive review of the framework within which law enforcement against computer crimes may be carried out and the environment in which personal data and privacy on the Internet are protected; if so, of the work schedule; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR SECURITY (in Chinese): President, given the rapid development in the Internet and information technology in recent years, tackling the related crimes has been an inter-departmental effort, and it has to move with the times. Regarding the three-part question, the Administration's reply is as follows:
(a) the Administration has adopted and implemented most of the 57 recommendations put forward by the Working Group in 2000, including the major ones as follows:
- The Working Group recommended that the law enforcement agencies (LEAs) strengthen communication with the Internet service providers (ISPs) and the private sector, as well as exchanges and co-operation among themselves. The LEAs have established a 24-hour liaison system with major ISPs and other institutions (such as financial institutions) to handle contingencies. The police from time to time organize seminars for financial institutions in order to enhance the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2617
industry's understanding of computer security. To better protect important local information technology infrastructure, the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (OGCIO) has established the Internet Infrastructure Liaison Group (IILG), comprising members from OGCIO, the police, the Office of the Communications Authority, the Hong Kong Computer Emergency Response Team Coordination Centre (HKCERT), the Hong Kong Internet Registration Corporation Limited, the Hong Kong Internet Exchange and the Hong Kong Internet Service Providers Association (HKISPA). Through the IILG, the stakeholders have established closer communication and co-operation. These communication and liaison channels have been operating smoothly.
- The Working Group also recommended enhancing education and publicity on information security. The police, in conjunction with OGCIO and HKCERT, organize year-round activities on topics of concern in the area of information security to promote public education. OGCIO has set up an information security portal
- The Working Group recommended establishing a set of standard procedures for handling computer evidence. The police have drawn up standard procedures for handling computer evidence for investigators' and computer forensics officers' reference. The police also regularly exchange views with other local LEAs on related issues. The LEAs review the relevant procedures from time to time to ensure that they meet the enforcement needs.
2618 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
(b) With regard to the recommendations that were not adopted or implemented (including mainly setting up a committee with representatives from LEAs and the private sector, amending the law to tackle the issue of "deception of machines", and for ISPs to delete the "multiple log-in" function), the Administration has adopted a series of follow-up measures to address the concerns raised at the time:
- As mentioned above, the LEAs and the private sector have established a number of co-operation platforms, and regularly exchange experience to promote information system security.
- The Administration had set up in 2004 a dedicated department, OGCIO, to replace the Information Technology Services Department and to promote the development of information and communications technology across the community, to formulate strategies on information technology and to develop a digital economy through the promotion of measures on cyber and information security.
- The Administration has carefully studied the recommendation on "deception of machines" through legislative amendments and came to view that the existing provisions in the Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200) in relation to computer offences already addressed the problem well.
- Having studied the recommendation, HKISPA and the Consumer Council were of the view that "multiple log-in" is a neutral function. The important issue was to educate consumers on the implications of multiple log-in on computer security. HKISPA and the Consumer Council have stepped up public education to this end.
(c) As mentioned above, tackling Internet and information technology-related crimes has been an inter-departmental effort which has to move with the times. From time to time, the Administration reviews the regulatory framework and administrative measures so that they keep up with the development of the Internet LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2619 and technology. Today, Hong Kong has many pieces of legislation tackling computer and Internet-related crimes. For example, the Telecommunications Ordinance (Cap. 106) prohibits unauthorized access to computer by telecommunications. The Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200) tackles access to computer with criminal or dishonest intent. The Theft Ordinance (Cap. 210) deals with offences of destroying, defacing, concealing or falsifying records kept by computer; the Unsolicited Electronic Messages Ordinance (Cap. 593) prohibits fraud activities related to the sending of multiple commercial electronic messages.
In addition, although certain laws do not mention explicitly the cyber environment, they apply to both the physical and virtual worlds. The Personal Data (Privacy) Ordinance (Cap. 486), insofar as protection of personal privacy is concerned, is applicable to any personal data which is practicable to access to and to process. The Electronic Transactions Ordinance (Cap. 553) gives electronic records and digital signatures the same legal status as paper records and handwritten signatures.
OGCIO and the police have been monitoring closely the technological development and changes in modus operandi of law breakers, updating their strategies in regulation, enforcement and publicity where necessary. Since 2009, HKCERT has been conducting a local information security incident response drill exercise on an annual basis, simulating various cyber attack incidents in order to enhance the ability of the relevant organizations to respond to cyber attacks. Every year, OGCIO, the police and HKCERT stage a year-round activity on information security. The theme for 2012 is "Build a Secure Cyberspace", focusing on helping the public tackle cyber attacks. The police will also continue to adopt a number of measures to combat technology crimes, including (i) staying professional and advanced in investigating technology crimes, electronic data identification and training; (ii) closely co-operating with overseas LEAs, other government departments and major industry stakeholders; and (iii) raising public awareness of the prevention of technology crime through public education and community efforts.
2620 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Overseas Duty Visits Conducted by Politically Appointed Officials
17. DR KENNETH CHAN (in Chinese): President, regarding overseas duty visits conducted by politically appointed officials, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the details of the overseas duty visits conducted by various politically appointed officials since the inauguration of the incumbent Government (including the dates, purposes, destinations, itineraries, numbers and ranks of accompanying staff as well as the amounts of expenditure incurred); and
(b) since some members of the public have relayed to me their concern that as certain politically appointed officials have conducted quite a number of overseas duty visits since their assumption of offices, they may have neglected their work in Hong Kong, whether the Government will comprehensively review the guidelines regarding overseas duty visits by politically appointed officials, so as to ensure that they conduct overseas visits only when necessary; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Chinese): President,
(a) Details of the duty visits conduced by Secretaries of Departments (SoDs) and Directors of Bureaux (DoBs) since the inauguration of the incumbent Government (position as at 31 October 2012) are set out at Annex.
(b) Hong Kong is an international city. We have been participating actively in promotion and business activities in the Mainland and overseas, and attending various international conferences and mega events so as to enhance Hong Kong's external liaison and raise Hong Kong's international profile as Asia's World City. The annual visit programme for political appointees is discussed at the Policy Committee chaired by the Chief Secretary for Administration every year, with a view to ensuring that the visits can serve the purposes of showcasing the strengths of Hong Kong, exploring business opportunities (especially in emerging markets), promoting Hong Kong and enhancing liaisons with partners around the world, and so LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2621
on. With the Policy Committee's agreement to the annual programme, the offices of SoDs and DoBs will discuss the details of specific visit programmes with the relevant departments and Economic and Trade Offices based in other cities. To ensure that duty visits are handled prudently, after the visit programmes have been drawn up, SoDs and DoBs will need to apply for approval. The Chief Secretary for Administration, the Financial Secretary and the Secretary for Justice shall submit applications to the Chief Executive for approval, while DoBs shall seek approval from the Chief Secretary for Administration or the Financial Secretary.
When planning for duty visits, political appointees will, in the first place, ascertain that there are no foreseeable major local policy issues requiring their attention during the visit period. In addition to arranging acting appointments as appropriate, a sound communication mechanism will be in place during the period of duty visits to ensure that major issues in Hong Kong will be properly handled.
All political appointees will regularly review their visit programmes. The approving officers, when considering applications for duty visits, will ensure that there is a practical need to conduct such visits and that the visits are cost-effective, will not compromise local priority issues and are in tune with Hong Kong's overall and long-term interest.
Annex
Duty Visits conducted by SoDs and DoBs since the inauguration of the incumbent Government (Position as at 31 October 2012)
Officials Date Purpose and Main itinerary Destination Accompanying Officials Chief Secretary for 14 September 2012 To attend the 15th Plenary of the Guangzhou Administrative Officer Administration Hong Kong/Guangdong Staff Grade C: 2 Co-operation Joint Conference 19 September 2012 To make courtesy calls on the Chief Macao Administrative Officer Executive of the Macao SAR and to Staff Grade C: 2 meet with the Secretary for Social Affairs and Culture, to visit centres of Fuhong Society of Macao and major hotel developments 2622 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Officials Date Purpose and Main itinerary Destination Accompanying Officials 23 to 25 September To make courtesy calls on senior Beijing Deputy Commissioner for 2012 officials in Beijing (including the Census and Statistics: 1 Vice Minister of Health, the Vice Administrative Officer Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Staff Grade C: 2 Director and Deputy Director of Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office of the State Council , the Vice Chairman of National Development and Reform Commission, the Vice Mayor of Beijing, the Commissioner of the National Bureau of Statistics and the Vice President of All-China Women's Federation), to meet Hong Kong citizens living in Beijing and to visit the Palace Museum and meet its Director 9 October 2012 To make courtesy calls on the Shenzhen Administrative Officer Shenzhen Party Secretary and Staff Grade C: 2 Mayor of Shenzhen and to officiate at the 30th Anniversary Ceremony of Shenzhen River Regulation cum Stage IV Design Achievements Exhibition 11 October 2012 To attend a ceremony to mark the Shenzhen Administrative Officer approval for the planning of the Staff Grade C: 1 Chinese University of Hong Kong (Shenzhen) Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $66,934 Financial Secretary 28 to 31 August To attend Asia-Pacific Economic Moscow, Administrative Officer 2012 Co-operation (APEC) Finance Russia Staff Grade C: 2 Ministers' Meeting and meet with heads of Russian financial regulators 5 to 11 September To attend the APEC Economic Vladivostok, Administrative Officer 2012 Leaders' Meeting and APEC CEO Russia Staff Grade C: 2 Summit on behalf of the Chief Executive, to conduct bilateral meetings with relevant officials, and to witness the signing of the Free Trade Agreement between Hong Kong and Chile 24 to 26 September To attend the third joint meeting of Taipei Administrative Officer 2012 the Hong Kong-Taiwan Economic Staff Grade C: 2 and Cultural Co-operation and Promotion Council (ECCPC) and the Taiwan-Hong Kong Economic and Cultural Co-operation Council (THEC) in the capacity of the Honorary Chairperson of the ECCPC, to call on heads of relevant departments of the Taiwan authorities and to visit cultural and creative facilities in Taipei LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2623
Officials Date Purpose and Main itinerary Destination Accompanying Officials 11 to 13 October To attend the annual meetings of the Tokyo, Japan Administrative Officer 2012 International Monetary Fund and Staff Grade C: 2 the World Bank Group, and to meet
with heads of international monetary organizations 29 October 2012 to To make courtesy calls on relevant Beijing and Administrative Officer 1 November 2012 officials of central authorities and Tianjin Staff Grade C: 2 (am) financial regulators in Beijing and to visit Tianjin Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $530,929 (including expenses incurred on 1 November) Secretary for Justice 10 August 2012 To promote the development of Shenzhen Principal Government Hong Kong's legal and arbitration Counsel: 1 services in Shenzhen (including Administrative Officer Qianhai), to meet with Shenzhen Staff Grade C: 1 officials and to visit the Qianhai Principal Information Shenzhen-Hong Kong Modern Officer: 1 Service Industry Co-operation Zone Government Counsel: 1 Information Officer: 1 12 to 13 September To attend the Hong Kong Legal Guangzhou Administrative Officer 2012 Services Forum and deliver a Staff Grade C: 1 speech at its opening ceremony to Chief Information introduce the advantages of Hong Officer: 1 Kong's legal services Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $9,200 Secretary for 14 September 2012 To attend the 15th Plenary of the Guangzhou Chief Information Transport and Hong Kong/Guangdong Officer: 1 Housing Co-operation Joint Conference Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $760 Secretary for Home 27 to 31 August To attend the London 2012 London, Chief Information Affairs 2012 Paralympic Games related events to United Officer: 1 cheer for Hong Kong athletes, to Kingdom meet with government officials there as well as leaders of the sports and culture sectors and to visit relevant facilities Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $103,300 Secretary for Labour 14 September 2012 To attend the 15th Plenary of the Guangzhou Administrative Officer and Welfare Hong Kong/Guangdong Staff Grade C: 1 Co-operation Joint Conference Chief Information Officer: 1 Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $1,140 Secretary for 29 October 2012 to To make courtesy calls on relevant Beijing and Administrative Officer Financial Services 1 November 2012 officials of central authorities and Tianjin Staff Grade C:1 and the Treasury (am) financial regulators in Beijing and Chief Information to visit Tianjin Officer: 1 Senior Administrative Officer: 1 Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $70,387 (including expenses incurred on 1 November) 2624 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Officials Date Purpose and Main itinerary Destination Accompanying Officials Secretary for 2 to 4 August 2012 To attend the 19th APEC Small and St Administrative Officer Commerce and Medium Enterprises Ministerial Petersburg, Staff Grade C: 1 Economic Meeting Russia Development 29 to 30 August To attend the "SmartHK" fair Hangzhou Administrative Officer 2012 Staff Grade C: 1 1 to 8 September To attend the 2nd China-Eurasia Urumqi and Administrative Officer 2012 Expo in Urumqi and the 24th APEC Vladivostok, Staff Grade C: 1 Ministerial Meeting in Vladivostok Russia (Urumqi and Vladivostok) Chief Information Officer: 1 (Vladivostok) 14 September 2012 To attend the 15th Plenary of the Guangzhou Chief Information Hong Kong/Guangdong Officer: 1 Co-operation Joint Conference 16 September 2012 To attend the 2012 China Dongguan Trade Officer: 1 Processing Trade Products Fair 17 to 21 September To attend the 2012 Ningbo-Hong Ningbo, Chief Information 2012 Kong Economic Co-operation Shanghai, Officer: 1 Forum in Ningbo; to meet with Tianjin and (Ningbo and Shanghai) Hong Kong businessmen and Beijing professionals from trade associations and other Hong Kong-related organizations in Shanghai and visit Shanghai's creative cluster; to attend the 2012 China Tourism Industries Exposition in Tianjin and visit Tianjin Cruise Terminal; to co-chair the 2012 Hong Kong and Mainland Tourism Working Meeting in Beijing 29 October 2012 to To meet with the trade ministers Cambodia, Administrative Officer 2 November 2012 and leaders of business sectors in Singapore Staff Grade C: 1 Cambodia, Singapore and Indonesia and Chief Information to promote Hong Kong's economic Indonesia Officer: 1 and trade relations with these countries, as well as to lobby relevant authorities for their support of Hong Kong's request to join the China-Association of Southeast Asian Nations Free Trade Area. To attend two major events of the Hong Kong Festival 2012 while in Singapore Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $353,862 Secretary for 24 to 26 September To attend the third joint meeting of Taipei Political Assistant: 1 Constitutional and 2012 the ECCPC and the THEC in the Mainland Affairs capacity of the Executive Vice Chairperson of ECCPC, to call on heads of relevant departments of the Taiwan authorities, and to visit cultural and creative facilities in Taipei City Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $23,281 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2625
Officials Date Purpose and Main itinerary Destination Accompanying Officials Secretary for Security No visit was conducted Secretary for 16 to 17 July 2012 To conduct courtesy visit to Hong Beijing Administrative Officer Education Kong and Macao Affairs Office of Staff Grade A1: 1 the State Council and Ministry of Senior Assistant Director Education of Education: 1 Assistant Director of Education: 1 Administrative Officer Staff Grade C: 1 Chief Information Officer: 1 11 October 2012 To attend the ceremony to mark the Shenzhen Administrative Officer approval for the planning of the Staff Grade C: 1 Chinese University of Hong Kong Senior Administrative (Shenzhen) and visit the University Officer: 1 of Hong Kong-Shenzhen Hospital Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $14,862 Secretary for the No visit was conducted Civil Service Secretary for Food 26 to 28 August To meet with the Ministry of Beijing 26 to 28 August 2012 and Health 2012 Health, the State Food and Drug Administrative Officer Administration, the State Staff Grade A1: 1 Administration of Traditional Administrative Officer Chinese Medicine, the State Staff Grade C: 2 General Administration of Quality Chief Information Supervision, Inspection and Officer: 1 Quarantine, and the Beijing Municipal Bureau of Health to 26 to 27 August 2012 strengthen ties and hold meetings Director of Health: 1 on various issues including medical and healthcare, medicine, Chinese 27 to 28 August 2012 medicine, food supply and food Administrative Officer safety. To make courtesy call on Staff Grade A1: 1 the Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Controller, Centre for Office of the State Council Food Safety: 1 Assistant Director of Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation: 1 Senior Administrative Officer: 1 17 September 2012 To attend the 11th Joint Meeting of Macao 16 to 17 September 2012 Senior Health Officials of the Senior Administrative Mainland, Hong Kong and Macao Officer: 1
17 September 2012 Director of Health: 1 Administrative Officer Staff Grade B:1
Administrative Officer Staff Grade C:1 Consultant :2 Chief Information Officer :1 Senior Medical and Health Officer: 1 2626 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Officials Date Purpose and Main itinerary Destination Accompanying Officials 23(pm) to 25(am) To attend the 63rd session of the Hanoi, 23(pm) to 25(am) September 2012 World Health Organization Vietnam September 2012 Regional Committee for the Administrative Officer Western Pacific and to meet with Staff Grade C: 2 Singapore's Minister of Health Chief Information Officer: 1
24 to 28 September 2012* Department of Health Director of Health: 1 Principal Medical and Health Officer: 1 Senior Medical and Health Officer: 2
* Officials from Department of Health attended five days of meeting 29 to 30 October To meet with the Director-General Guangzhou 29 to 30 October 2012 2012 of the Health Department of and Administrative Officer Guangdong Province, the Director Shenzhen Staff Grade A1:1 of the Guangdong Entry-Exit Administrative Officer Inspection and Quarantine Bureau, Staff Grade C:2 and the Director General of the Chief Information Shenzhen Entry-Exit Inspection and Officer: 1 Quarantine Bureau to strengthen Senior Administrative ties and hold meetings on various Officer: 1 issues including medical and healthcare, Chinese medicine, food 29 October 2012 supply and food safety. To visit Department of Health the Guangdong Provincial Hospital Director of Health: 1 of Traditional Chinese Medicine Principal Medical and and the University of Hong Health Officer: 1 Kong-Shenzhen Hospital Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $275,108 Secretary for the 14 September 2012 To attend the 15th Plenary of the Guangzhou Administrative Officer Environment Hong Kong/Guangdong Staff Grade B: 1 Co-operation Joint Conference Administrative Officer Staff Grade C: 1 Chief Information Officer: 1 Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $1,520 Secretary for 14 September 2012 To attend the 15th Plenary of the Guangzhou Government Town Development Hong Kong/Guangdong Planner: 1 Co-operation Joint Conference Government Engineer: 1 9 October 2012 To attend the 30th Anniversary Shenzhen Administrative Officer Ceremony of Shenzhen River Staff Grade C: 1 Regulation cum Stage IV Design Chief Information Achievements Exhibition. To Officer: 1 make courtesy call on the Secretary of the CPC Shenzhen Municipal Committee and the Mayor of Shenzhen Total amount of Expenditure (HK$): $1,140
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2627
Review of Policies on Higher Education and Early Childhood Education
18. MR FREDERICK FUNG (in Chinese): President, it has been reported that the Secretary for Education has indicated earlier that the Government will review its policies on higher education and early childhood education, implement three-year free early childhood education and increase the university cohort participation rate to one third of the relevant age cohort in Hong Kong, and it is also expected that 15-year free education will be implemented by 2013 or 2014. The Chief Executive has also indicated in his election manifesto that "we will provide free early childhood education. We will set up a working group under the Education Commission to work with stakeholders, including sponsoring bodies, principals, teachers and parents to formulate implementation details. We will also consider providing subsidies to child care centres and kindergartens (KGs) towards their expenditure on teachers' salary" and that "we will broaden the articulation pathways for secondary school graduates, including the provision of subsidy for attending universities on the Mainland, and more subsidized tertiary education opportunities (for both degree and diploma courses) and private university places in Hong Kong". In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) of the latest progress of the authorities' efforts in promoting free early childhood education; the progress in setting up the working group under the Education Commission; the authorities' initial proposal on the method and approach for implementing free early childhood education; the anticipated difficulties and technical problems which may be encountered; how they will improve the remuneration packages for KG teachers and provide a stable environment for their development, so as to ensure that there will be well-qualified teaching staff to tie in with the implementation of free early childhood education; and the transitional arrangements and timetable for implementing free early childhood education; and
(b) whether, apart from students enrolled in undergraduate programmes, the number of students enrolled in other post-secondary programmes (for example, sub-degree programmes) have been taken into account in calculating the current university cohort participation rate; if so, of a breakdown by type of programmes; of the specific methods to be used by the authorities to increase the university cohort participation rate in Hong Kong and 2628 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
the scope concerned; the respective percentages of first-year first-degree (FYFD) places and senior year articulation places provided for sub-degree holders in the number of additional subsidized places; whether the authorities will set a target for increasing the percentage of local students enrolling in subsidized undergraduate programmes; whether the authorities will conduct a review to see if measures to increase university places will give rise to or exacerbate problems of over-enrolment of students and variations in quality among some of the sub-degree programmes and self-financing post-secondary programmes, and how they will step up regulation to prevent such problems?
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Chinese): President,
(a) Enhancing the quality of KG education is one of the priorities of the current-term Government.
KG education has become popularized in Hong Kong, with an enrolment rate of about 100%. The Government introduced the Pre-primary Education Voucher Scheme (PEVS) in the 2007-2008 school year to provide fee subsidy for parents and support the professional upgrading of KG teachers. The level of fee subsidy has been raised progressively over the past few years to $16,800 per student per year in the 2012-2013 school year.
Since July 2012, we have conducted more than 10 sharing sessions with different KG-related stakeholder groups to solicit their views and suggestions on the future development of KG education. We have also visited KGs with different operating modes and scales to better understand their actual operation. Through these exchanges, we noted that stakeholders have different understanding and expectations of further enhancement to KG education. For instance, on the mode of subsidy, some stakeholders expressed that the Government should subsidize KGs directly, following the mode adopted for aided primary and secondary schools so as to enhance the consistency of KG education provided, while some raised concerns on issues that may arise out of this arrangement, such as the need to set a threshold for the class size and centralize the allocation LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2629 of KG places, as well as the sustainability and possible closure of some small KGs and its knock-on effect on the stability of the teaching force of the sector. Other stakeholders have reservation about adopting a standardized subvention mode, which they think may adversely affect the flexibility of the KG sector and hence their provision of diversified services for parents. Some have proposed enhancing the PEVS to provide parents with more subsidy and choices.
KGs in Hong Kong have all along been privately-run. Their operation has been flexible and their services are diversified. With the flexibility under an effective regulatory framework, KGs are responsive to the needs of parents and KG children, and has been offering a wide range of services. This mode of operation, which has been in place for a very long time, also enables each KG to maintain its uniqueness according to the mission and culture of its sponsoring body. As a result, there is a huge diversity among the KGs in terms of their operating scale, school premises and facilities, rent and other operating costs, qualifications and number of teachers, payroll and school fees charged, and so on. In view of this, further enhancement to the funding mode of KGs is a very complicated issue.
In the light of the foregoing, we need more time to communicate with the sector and parents, study and consolidate the views of stakeholders, conduct more in-depth consultation and draw on overseas experiences. We have to give careful consideration to some major issues including the mode of subsidy, teachers' professional development and salary, school premises and rent, as well as the regulatory and accountability framework. We would also need to consider whether the proposed measures will hinder the diversified development of KGs, thereby undermining the sector's responsiveness to external changes, as well as parents' choices, and so on.
The Education Bureau intends to set up before mid-2013 a committee and working groups to conduct further consultation on various issues of concern and put forward feasible options for consideration by the Education Bureau.
2630 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
(b) The Government promotes the parallel development of the publicly-funded and self-financing post-secondary sectors, and is committed to providing secondary school leavers with flexible and diversified study pathways with multiple entry and exit points. In the 2011-2012 academic year, the overall undergraduate participation rate of the relevant age cohort was 31.1%, which was nine percentage points higher than the rate of 21.9% registered five years ago. Including students on sub-degree programmes, currently about two thirds of our young people have access to post-secondary education. Detailed information about the undergraduate participation rate is set out below:
2006-2007 2011-2012
academic year academic year Participation rate for FYFD programmes of the relevant age 20.7% 23.9% cohort Overall undergraduate participation rate of the relevant age cohort 21.9% 31.1% (including senior year/top-up degree programmes)
At the undergraduate level, we continue to invest heavily in the publicly-funded sector. Starting from the 2012-2013 academic year, the number of approved University Grants Committee (UGC)-funded FYFD places has increased from 14 620 to 15 000 per annum. For the self-financing sector, the number of self-financing degree-awarding institutions has increased to eight, doubling that in 2009. The number of places for full-time accredited self-financing undergraduate programmes has also increased from 3 100 in the 2009-2010 academic year to 7 700 in the 2012-2013 academic year.
Sub-degree programmes lead to a valuable standalone qualification and is a progression pathway to further studies or employment. In recent years, there has been a remarkable increase in the articulation opportunities available to sub-degree graduates. In the next three academic years, intake places for UGC-funded senior year undergraduate programmes will double from 2 000 to 4 000 per LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2631 annum, while intake places for self-financing top-up degree programmes have doubled from 3 000 in the 2010-2011 academic year to 6 500 in 2012-2013.
We expect that by 2015, over one third of our young people in the relevant age cohort will have access to degree programmes. Including sub-degree places, more than two thirds of our young people will receive post-secondary education.
Secondary school leavers may opt for articulation outside Hong Kong. Starting from this year, a number of higher education institutions in the Mainland has considered the admission of Hong Kong students based on their results in the Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education Examinations or the Hong Kong Advanced Level Examinations, thus exempting them from taking the Joint Entrance Examination for Universities in the Mainland. In 2013, as many as 70 institutions will join the scheme, seven more than in 2012.
The Government attaches great importance to the quality assurance of post-secondary education. The Hong Kong Council for Accreditation of Academic and Vocational Qualifications (HKCAAVQ) is responsible for the quality assurance of all operators and programmes except the UGC-funded institutions with self-accrediting status. The HKCAAVQ assures, among others, that sufficient teaching staff with appropriate qualifications and experience are employed for locally-accredited self-financing sub-degree and undergraduate programmes. As for the UGC-funded institutions with self-accrediting status, quality assurance procedures are in place to monitor the quality of their programmes.
The UGC recommended in its Report on Higher Education Review 2010 that a single quality assurance body for the entire post-secondary sector should be set up. While the Government will explore the possibility of eventually setting up a single quality assurance body, we have been implementing incremental steps to enhance the quality assurance mechanism:
2632 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
(i) The Government has transformed the Tripartite Liaison Committee (comprising the Education Bureau, HKCAAVQ and Joint Quality Review Committee) and formed the Liaison Committee on Quality Assurance by engaging the Quality Assurance Council. The goals of the Committee are to promote sharing of good practices among all the quality assurance bodies and increase consistency and transparency so as to enhance accountability. Through the Committee, the Education Bureau will follow up issues relating to admission and programme arrangements of institutions offering self-financing post-secondary programmes; and
(ii) As stated in its response to the UGC's Report on Higher Education Review, the Government considers that periodic external audits and reviews should be conducted on community colleges or self-financing sub-degree operations under the aegis of UGC-funded institutions, so as to enhance quality assurance and ensure consistency and coherence in standards. To this end, the Government stipulates under the Sixth Matching Grant Scheme launched in August this year that UGC-funded institutions would need to undertake that their sub-degree operations benefiting from the Scheme should be subject to periodic quality audits by the HKCAAVQ in future. UGC-funded institutions participating in the latest round of the Start-up Loan Scheme and Quality Enhancement Support Scheme, which have recently been launched for self-financing institutions, are also required to make a similar undertaking. The Education Bureau, in conjunction with relevant bodies, will study the implementation details.
Complaints Against Telecommunications Service Operators
19. MR ALBERT CHAN (in Chinese): President, in reply to my question on 2 November 2011 on the issue of telecommunications service operators (TSOs) overcharging service fees, the Government said that when there was evidence indicating that a TSO might have breached the Telecommunications Ordinance (TO) (Cap. 106) or the licensing conditions, the Office of the Telecommunications Authority (OFTA) (replaced by the Office of the Communications Authority (OFCA) since 1 April 2012) would carry out an investigation and penalize the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2633
TSO if the case was substantiated. Yet, I have still received complaints recently from a number of members of the public that TSOs had charged them for services that they had not applied for, or overcharged telecommunications service fees, thus causing them to suffer huge losses. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
(a) whether it knows the numbers of complaints received in the past 12 months by the former OFTA/OFCA and the Consumer Council (CC) respectively, which involved overcharging by TSOs and the names of TSOs in substantiated cases, broken down by type of telecommunications services (for example, fixed-line phones, mobile phones, external telecommunications and broadband Internet access, and so on) and nature of the complaints;
(b) whether it knows, among the cases in part (a), the number of those in which the complainants succeeded in getting compensation, as well as the names of TSOs which were prosecuted and the number of times such TSOs had been prosecuted; and
(c) apart from continuing to implement the existing measures to regulate TSOs, whether the authorities will adopt new regulatory measures to better protect consumers' interests; if they will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Chinese): President, the telecommunications market in Hong Kong has been developing rapidly, the telecommunications services are pervasive and competitive. The OFCA(1) and the CC receive complaints in respect of the billing of telecommunications services from time to time. Normally, such complaints will be referred to the service operators concerned direct for follow-up. The Communications Authority (CA)(1) is empowered by the TO to regulate the telecommunications sector. When there is evidence indicating that an operator may have breached TO or the licensing conditions, the CA will conduct an investigation and penalize the operator if there is sufficient evidence to substantiate the case.
(1) Pursuant to the Communications Authority Ordinance (Cap. 616), with effect from 1 April 2012, all duties and powers of the Telecommunications Authority are conferred on the CA, and all duties and powers of the OFTA are conferred on the OFCA, the executive arm of the CA. 2634 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
The Government's reply to the Member's question is as follows:
(a) The number of complaints on billing disputes(2) received by the OFCA from November 2011 to October 2012, broken down by the type of services, is set out below:
November 2011 to October 2012 Fixed services 87 Mobile services 872 Internet access services 105 Others (for example, external 24 communications services) Total 1 088
The number of complaints on billing disputes(2) received by the CC from November 2011 to October 2012, broken down by the type of services, is set out below:
November 2011 to October 2012 Fixed services 271 Mobile telephone services 964 Mobile data services 712 Internet access services 663 Others (for example, external 583 communications services) Total 3 193
Not all complaint cases are substantiated and some of them may be service enquiries only. Moreover, the numbers of complaints against individual operators may be affected by their customer bases. Therefore, in line with the established practice of handling consumer complaints, the OFCA and the CC will not disclose the names of the TSOs involved in the complaints.
(2) While some complaints on billing disputes involve overcharging, some may involve other billing disputes such as consumers not being clear about the details of their tariff plans. As such, the figures in part (a) are not limited to complaints about overcharging. Neither the OFCA nor the CC further categorizes complaints on billing disputes received. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2635
(b) As most complaints in respect of billing disputes are contractual disputes between individual consumers and operators, the OFCA and the CC do not have the right to intervene directly in such cases. However, the OFCA and the CC have always endeavoured to help resolve contractual and billing disputes between consumers and operators through mediation. Among the complaints set out in part (a), the OFCA referred to the operators and mediated in 901 cases with the consent of the complainants, and 496 (55%) of them have been settled. The CC referred to the operators and mediated in 2 849 cases with the consent of the complainants, and 2 157 (76%) of them have been settled. For the remaining cases, the OFCA and the CC have requested the operators to handle them properly. In the past year, insofar as complaints on billing disputes are concerned, the OFCA did not find any substantiated breaches of TO or licensing conditions by the operators on which the imposition of a penalty or fine was required.
(c) At present, licences issued by the CA to the TSOs include provisions for protecting consumers. For instance, the licensee is required to ensure the accuracy and reliability of its metering equipment and billing system related to service usage. In addition, section 7M of TO expressly provides that a licensee shall not engage in misleading or deceptive conduct in providing telecommunications services, including promoting, marketing or advertising such services. If there is evidence indicating that an operator is in breach of TO or the licensing conditions, the CA will commence investigation and penalize the operator if there is sufficient evidence to substantiate the case.
The OFCA has been closely monitoring the market situation by analysing consumer complaints and media coverage of telecommunications services, so as to understand public concerns and formulate timely measures for consumer protection. As regards telecommunications service contracts into which consumers enter, the OFCA has been in active discussion with the telecommunications industry. In July 2011, the industry formally implemented the Industry Code of Practice for Telecommunications Service Contracts (Industry Code) issued by the Communications Association of Hong Kong, an industry organization, in 2636 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
collaboration with the major TSOs. The Industry Code provides guidelines on drawing up telecommunications service contracts for consumers, and introduces improvements in such aspects as contract details and arrangements for contract termination and renewal. So far, the OFCA has not found any breaches of the Industry Code since its implementation.
In addition, to enhance the transparency of pricing in respect of chargeable items in telecommunications services, the CA issued in October 2011 the Code of Practice in Relation to Billing Information and Payment Collection for Telecommunications Services, which provides guidelines on the information to be included in bills and on the arrangements for payment collection, for compliance by operators on a voluntary basis. Effective from 1 July 2012, seven local fixed and five mobile network operators have pledged compliance with the Code of Practice.
The above measures have proved to be effective. For the period of the past 12 months ending October this year, the numbers of complaints on billing disputes received by the OFCA and the CC have dropped by nearly 17% and by around 14% respectively as compared to the same period of last year.
Moreover, as regards the billing disputes between the customers and telecommunications service providers, the OFCA has been in active discussion with the telecommunications industry. A two-year pilot run of the Customer Complaint Settlement Scheme was officially launched in November 2012 to resolve billing disputes in deadlock between the telecommunications service providers and their customers through mediation.
The OFCA will closely monitor the implementation and effectiveness of the above measures, and consider enhanced or new measures to protect the right and interest of consumers, in the light of operators' experience and consumers' views. The Administration will continue to actively monitor the market situation with a view to identifying problems and formulating corresponding strategies in a timely manner.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2637
Overall, the Administration attaches great importance to enhancing consumer protection. In July 2012, the Legislative Council enacted the Trade Description (Unfair Trade Practices) (Amendment) Ordinance 2012 which aims to tackle unfair trade practices more effectively. The Amendment Ordinance expands the scope of the Trade Description Ordinance (Cap. 362) to cover services, and prohibit commonly found unfair trade practices including false trade descriptions of services, misleading omissions, aggressive commercial practices, bait advertising, bait-and-switch and wrongly accepting payment. The amendments will be applicable to telecommunications services, the enforcement power has been conferred on the CA in respect of the telecommunications services. The current plan of the Administration is to commence the Amendment Ordinance in 2013.
Buyer's Stamp Duty
20. DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Chinese): President, the Government announced on 26 October 2012 the launching of further measures to address the overheated property market. Such measures include the introduction of a Buyer's Stamp Duty (BSD) under which all companies and non-Hong Kong permanent residents acquiring residential properties are required to pay a tax of an amount equivalent to 15% of the prices of the properties. The Government has explained that BSD applies to all companies and exemption cannot be granted because it is difficult to plug the loophole that the duty may be evaded by effecting property transactions through the transfer of shares. However, some people from the legal sector have suggested that the authorities may exempt those companies registered in Hong Kong whose shareholders are all Hong Kong permanent residents (HKPRs) from paying BSD on the conditions that all shareholders of the company concerned have made a statutory declaration to confirm that they hold the full beneficiary interest of the shares under their names (and the making of false declaration entails criminal liabilities), and an undertaking that they will not transfer any shares within certain years from the company concerned being exempted from paying BSD, reneging which the transferor and the transferee are required to render a make-up payment for BSD immediately. In this connection, will the Government inform this Council:
2638 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
(a) whether the Government will consider the aforesaid suggestion to exempt those eligible Hong Kong-registered companies from paying BSD; if it will, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(b) as the Government has indicated that the aforesaid measure is "an extraordinary measure introduced under exceptional circumstances" and it will consider cancelling the measure after "the demand-supply situation of the property market has regained its balance", whether the Government has specific criteria for evaluating if the property market has reached the state in which "the demand-supply situation has regained its balance"; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(c) how the Government determined that BSD should be set at the level of 15% of the prices of properties;
(d) as the information of the Land Registry shows that there were 71 012 residential property transactions in the first 10 months of 2012, whether the Government has assessed the impact of BSD on the number of transactions and prices of residential properties; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(e) whether it has, prior to introducing BSD, assessed how this duty will affect the number of cases of foreign investors making investments in Hong Kong; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(f) as the Government expects that the aforesaid measures will enable the residential property market to "accord priority to meeting the housing needs of HKPRs", whether the Government has assessed the number of HKPRs who will be benefited from the implementation of BSD and acquire residential properties; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(g) whether the Government has considered exempting charities, non-profit-making organizations and public organizations from paying BSD for acquisition of residential properties; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2639
(h) as the Government has indicated that it has arranged to meet with the consuls of various countries in Hong Kong, The Law Society of Hong Kong, The Real Estate Developers Association of Hong Kong, the Estate Agents Authority, the estate agency trade, as well as local and foreign chambers of commerce, and so on, to brief them on the new measures, of a name list of the persons whom the Government has met, together with the dates of the meetings; if it cannot provide such information, the reasons for that; whether those persons have expressed support for the Government's implementation of BSD; if they have, of the details; if not, the reasons for that;
(i) whether it has assessed the impact of BSD on the employment and income of estate agents and staff in the mortgage departments of banks; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that; and
(j) as the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury indicated in the reply to a Member's question at the Legislative Council meeting of 14 November this year that the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) was aware that more funds may flow to the purchase of vehicle parking spaces or non-residential properties after the introduction of BSD, and the HKMA would thus give "reminders" to banks, and the banks would also take measures to offer loans under stringent loan-to-value ratios to those investing in vehicle parking spaces so that the overall macroscopic risks might be lowered, whether the Government has assessed if this remark will cause banks to tighten up their vetting and approval of mortgage applications for residential properties; if it has, of the details; if not, the reasons for that?
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Chinese): President, there are 10 aspects raised in Dr LAM Tai-fai's question. I would address them in a consolidated manner as follows:
The BSD was announced by the Financial Secretary on 26 October 2012, which will be levied at a flat rate of 15% and be charged for all residential properties acquired by any person except a HKPR. In determining the BSD rate, we have drawn reference from the experience of Singapore and Macao. Singapore has imposed a 10% Additional Buyer's Stamp Duty on residential 2640 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 property transactions involving companies and foreigners since December 2011. In Macao, relevant legislation was passed in end October 2012 to levy an additional 10% stamp duty on residential property transactions involving buyers who are legal entities (that is, companies) and non-Macao residents. We have decided to pitch BSD at 15% in order to achieve a sustainable and desired impact.
On the exemptions for BSD, we plan to draw reference from the existing exemption arrangements for the Special Stamp Duty and provide similar arrangements for BSD as appropriate. For instance, if residential properties are offered as a gift to charitable institutions exempted from tax under section 88 of the Inland Revenue Ordinance (Cap. 112), BSD should be exempted. The specific exemption arrangements for BSD will be set out in detail in the Bill to amend the Stamp Duty Ordinance, which is planned to be introduced into the Legislative Council in January 2013. In drafting the Amendment Bill, the Government takes into account the various comments received, including those received from the meetings arranged to brief the relevant stakeholders on the new measures. The dates of these meetings are set out at Annex.
In pursuant of our policy intention of according priority to HKPR buyers with a view to meeting their housing and home ownership needs under the current tight supply situation in the residential property market by reducing the demand of non-HKPRs to purchase properties, we consider that other than HKPRs, all other persons and companies should not be exempted from BSD. In law, a company is an entity independent from its shareholders. Under the legal framework of Hong Kong, we have all along distinguished companies by whether they are established locally or overseas, instead of making reference to the HKPR status of shareholders. Furthermore, apart from the above stated policy and legal considerations, it is commonly known that the structure of a company can be complicated and take various forms. In order to achieve different controlling objectives, in addition to realizing them through various forms of share transfer, one may also issue new shares to change the controlling stake. While we may statutorily require companies registered in Hong Kong, with all shareholders being HKPRs, to declare the change in share distribution and identity of shareholders every time they stamp for share transfer, in order to avoid the transfer of interests in residential properties to non-HKPRs by way of share transfer, the declaration mechanism as proposed in the question cannot avoid the situation where interests in residential properties are transferred by issuing new shares, since such practice is not subject to stamp duty. All in all, it is not possible to put in place a mechanism that can effectively plug all the loopholes LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2641 identified, and the monitoring work so required would be extremely complicated to an extent that might not be proportionate to the effectiveness of BSD.
While we understand that BSD may inevitably create certain inconvenience to certain parties, we, as an accountable Government, have to act in the interest of all, and strive to safeguard the livelihood of the general public and Hong Kong's financial stability by preventing the risk of a property bubble from jeopardizing the well-being of the community. We consider that ensuring the health and stable development of the property market is in the best interest of society as a whole. In fact, as the Financial Secretary wrote in his blog, that property prices have exceeded buyers' affordability may be a reason for the recent drop in transaction volume. If there is any downward adjustment to property prices after the introduction of the new demand-side management measures, the transaction volume may increase as a result, which may bring about a positive impact on the business of the estate agency trade and other relevant sectors.
The Government envisages that BSD would reduce the demand of non-HKPRs to purchase properties in both primary and secondary markets, thus according priority to HKPR buyers, forestalling a further build up of exuberance in the property market in the midst of global liquidity glut and exceptionally low interest rates, and safeguarding the overall macroeconomic and financial stability of Hong Kong. Given that the property market is affected by a wide range of factors, it would not be possible to quantify the exact impact and benefits of BSD, including its impact on foreign investment which is affected by, inter alia, global macroeconomic outlook, financial market developments and investors' risk appetite, which are subject to considerable uncertainty over time.
The demand-side management measures introduced on 26 October 2012, including BSD, are extraordinary measures introduced under the current exceptional circumstances. We would consider withdrawing these measures after the demand-supply situation of the property market has regained its balance. We will continue to closely monitor the property market by making reference to a basket of indicators, including property prices, the housing affordability for the general public, the volume of property transactions, the supply of residential properties, mortgage payments, rent-to-income ratio, and so on.
As far as the mortgage lending business is concerned, the HKMA has all along required banks to adopt a prudential approach to processing any loan application, including those for car parking spaces. After the implementation of 2642 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 the fifth round of countercyclical prudential supervisory measures for mortgage lending on 14 September 2012, the HKMA has received enquiries from banks on the actual operation of mortgage loan processing for car parking spaces. On this, the HKMA has liaised with major banks engaged in mortgage lending business with a view to obtaining further information about the standards they have adopted in processing this type of mortgage lending. The HKMA is aware that major banks engaged in mortgage lending for car parking spaces have been processing such applications with prudence by, for example, adopting a maximum mortgage ratio of 50%, and a maximum loan repayment period of 15 years. The mortgage to income ratio and that under the stress test are also similar to those adopted for mortgage lending for residential properties. Subsequently, the HKMA has discussed with the banking sector with a view to requiring banks to review their existing practice and take necessary measures to ensure that their standards adopted for approving mortgage lending applications for car parking spaces are consistent with those adopted by major banks. Since most of the banks have adopted the abovementioned or even more prudent standards in processing mortgage lending applications for parking spaces, the HKMA considers that such a requirement would not have any impact on banks' processing of mortgage lending applications. The HKMA will, through sustained efforts, monitor whether banks have adopted consistently prudential standards in processing mortgage lending applications, including those for parking spaces.
Annex
Meetings arranged to brief relevant stakeholders on the new measures
Party Date Consulate-Generals 2 November 2012 The Real Estate Developers Association of Hong 6 November 2012 Kong Estate Agent trade 7 November 2012 The Law Society of Hong Kong 7 November 2012 Chambers of Commerce 14 November 2012 Estate Agents Authority 16 November 2012
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2643
MOTIONS
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Motions. Proposed resolution under the Criminal Procedure Ordinance to approve the Criminal Procedure (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 2012.
I now call upon the Chief Secretary for Administration to speak and move the motion.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION UNDER THE CRIMINAL PROCEDURE ORDINANCE
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): President, I move that the First Resolution standing in my name, as printed on the Agenda, be passed. This motion aims to seek the approval of the Legislative Council for the Criminal Procedure (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 2012 made by the Criminal Procedure Rules Committee under section 9B of the Criminal Procedure Ordinance.
At present, the maximum allowance payable to ordinary witnesses in criminal proceedings is $360 for each day of attendance or $180 for not exceeding four hours of attendance. The maximum allowance for professional or expert witnesses is higher, at $2,170 for each day of attendance or $1,085 for not exceeding four hours of attendance.
Under the adjustment mechanism approved by the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council, changes to the rate of allowance for ordinary witnesses would be made in accordance with the movements in the median monthly earnings of employees (MMEE) in Hong Kong while those for professional or expert witnesses would be made in accordance with the changes in the mid-point salary of a Medical and Health Officer. The Finance Committee also delegated the authority to approve relevant adjustments to the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury.
The existing rates of allowances have been adopted since early 2009. The Judiciary Administration has reviewed the rates of allowances earlier this year. Taking into account the movements in the MMEE from the second quarter of 2644 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
2008 to the second quarter of 2012 and the mid-point salary of a Medical and Health Officer from 1 April 2008 to 1 April 2010, the Judiciary Administration proposes, and the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury approves, to increase the maximum rate of allowance for an ordinary witness from $360 to $410 for each day of attendance and from $180 to $205 for not exceeding four hours of attendance. For professional or expert witness, the maximum rate of allowance will be increased from $2,170 to $2,355 for each day of attendance and from $1,085 to $1,175 for not exceeding four hours of attendance. These adjustments aim to maintain the real value of the rates of allowances to minimize any financial loss suffered by members of the public testifying as witnesses.
The Criminal Procedure (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 2012 seeks to implement the new rates of allowances. I invite Members to approve the Resolution. Thank you, President.
The Chief Secretary for Administration moved the following motion:
"RESOLVED that the Criminal Procedure (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 2012, made by the Criminal Procedure Rules Committee on 26 October 2012, be approved."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by the Chief Secretary for Administration be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by the Chief Secretary for Administration be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2645
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Proposed resolution under the Coroners Ordinance to approve the Coroners (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 2012.
I now call upon the Chief Secretary for Administration to speak and move the motion.
PROPOSED RESOLUTION UNDER THE CORONERS ORDINANCE
CHIEF SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION (in Cantonese): President, I move that the Second Resolution standing in my name, as printed on the Agenda, be passed. This motion aims to seek the approval of the Legislative Council for the Coroners (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 2012 made by the Chief Justice under section 54 of the Coroners Ordinance.
At present, the maximum rates of allowances payable to witnesses in coroners' inquests are the same as those for witnesses in criminal proceedings. The adjustment mechanism approved by the Finance Committee of the Legislative Council is also the same as that for the allowances for witnesses under the Criminal Procedure (Witnesses' Allowances) Rules. Following a review conducted earlier this year, the Judiciary Administration proposes, and the Secretary for Financial Services and the Treasury approves, to increase the maximum rate of allowance for ordinary witnesses from $360 to $410 for each day of attendance and from $180 to $205 for not exceeding four hours of attendance. For professional or expert witnesses, the maximum rate of allowance would be increased from $2,170 to $2,355 for each day of attendance and from $1,085 to $1,175 for not exceeding four hours of attendance.
2646 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
The Coroners (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 2012 seeks to implement the new rates of allowances. I invite Members to approve the Resolution. Thank you, President.
The Chief Secretary for Administration moved the following motion:
"RESOLVED that the Coroners (Witnesses' Allowances) (Amendment) Rules 2012, made by the Chief Justice on 25 October 2012, be approved."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by the Chief Secretary for Administration be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by the Chief Secretary for Administration be passed. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority of the Members present. I declare the motion passed.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2647
MEMBERS' MOTIONS
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): There are a total of four Members' motions for this meeting.
First Member's motion: Mr Ronny TONG will move a motion under Rule 49E(2) of the Rules of Procedure to take note of three items of subsidiary legislation relating to the expansion of the legal aid schemes, which were included in Report No. 5/12-13 of the House Committee laid on the Table of this Council.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): According to the relevant debating procedure, I will first call upon Mr Ronny TONG to speak and move the motion, and then call upon the chairman of the subcommittee formed to scrutinize the relevant items of subsidiary legislation to speak, to be followed by other Members. Finally, I will call upon the public officer to speak. The debate will come to a close after the public officer has spoken, and the motion will not be put to vote.
Members who wish to speak on the motion will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon Mr Ronny TONG to speak and move the motion.
MOTION UNDER RULE 49E(2) OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, in my capacity as Deputy Chairman of the House Committee, I move that the motion under Rule 49E(2) of the Rules of Procedures, as printed on the Agenda, be passed, so as to enable Members to debate on the following three items of subsidiary legislation as set out in Report No. 5/12-13 of the House Committee on Consideration of Subsidiary Legislation and Other Instruments: first, Legal Aid (Amendment) Regulation 2012, second, Legal Aid (Assessment of Resources and Contributions) (Amendment) Regulation 2012, and third, Legal Aid Ordinance ― Resolution of the Legislative Council (Commencement) Notice.
2648 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
President, the scrutiny and passage of these three items of subsidiary legislation involve technical amendments to a certain extent, but I would like to take this opportunity to express to the Secretary some views on legal aid.
President, I believe the Secretary will agree that legal aid is an essential component in upholding the rule of law in Hong Kong. Just think, if the general public could not be protected by court or file a case in court, how can we talk about the rule of law? However, in society nowadays, almost half of the litigants in court are unrepresented, and the ratio may even be more than half, as indicated by the figures. There may be two reasons for this: firstly, the fees charged by the legal profession are exorbitant; and secondly, the legal aid system fails to help litigants.
President, on the problem of exorbitant fees charged by the legal profession, I have expressed a lot of views over the past 10-odd years, I believe the legal profession should conduct a review to introduce healthy competition and reduce charges. However, legal aid is also an essential component. The existing scope and the financial eligibility limit of legal aid have driven many middle-class people away from the legal aid net. The Court is very remote to them. When they are forced to file a lawsuit but cannot afford to engage a lawyer, this will put immense pressure on Hong Kong courts. As lawyers, we estimate that the time required by unrepresented litigants will generally be 1.5 times to two times more than that of represented litigants, or even more. In other words, the efficiency of court ruling mostly depends on whether or not litigants are represented. As such, if we do not allocate more resources under the legal aid system to help litigants, the legal system will come under pressure to a certain extent, and this will also deplete social resources.
In this regard, I hope the Secretary can, either in the Executive Council or in the discussion of policies, make extra efforts to consider the provision of legal aid by an independent authority, because only an independent legal aid authority can ensure the preservation of our rule of law and judicial independence. It is equally important to allocate more resources to legal aid so as to cover as many litigants as possible, especially when we are currently discussing whether the legislation should be amended to enact for class actions. I hope the Secretary will take on board the voices of the Council today, and make extra efforts in the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2649 two areas of allocating extra resources and setting up an independent authority to provide legal aid services as mentioned by me just now.
Thank you, President.
Mr Ronny TONG moved the following motion:
"That this Council takes note of Report No. 5/12-13 of the House Committee laid on the Table of the Council on 28 November 2012 in relation to the subsidiary legislation and instrument(s) as listed below:
Item Number Title of Subsidiary Legislation or Instrument
(1) Legal Aid (Amendment) Regulation 2012 (L.N. 145/2012)
(2) Legal Aid (Assessment of Resources and Contributions) (Amendment) Regulation 2012 (L.N. 146/2012)
(3) Legal Aid Ordinance ― Resolution of the Legislative Council (Commencement) Notice (L.N. 148/2012)."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Ronny TONG be passed.
MR DENNIS KWOK (in Cantonese): President, in my capacity as Chairman of the Subcommittee on Legal Aid (Amendment) Regulation 2012, Legal Aid (Assessment of Resources and Contributions) (Amendment) Regulation 2012 and Legal Aid Ordinance ― Resolution of the Legislative Council (Commencement) Notice, I now report on the deliberations of the Subcommittee.
On 17 July 2012, the Legislative Council passed the resolution moved by the Secretary for Home Affairs to expand the scope of the Ordinary Legal Aid Scheme and the Supplementary Legal Aid Scheme (SLAS). The Administration subsequently made amendments to the relevant regulations to propose changes to the application fees and rates of contribution set out under the expanded SLAS. 2650 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
The Subcommittee, having regard to the rate of final contribution under the expanded SLAS which was set at 20% or 15% for claims settled before the date of hearing or commencement of hearing, considered that these rates of final contribution are rather high. Given that the rates of final contribution under the existing legal aid schemes are only set at 10% and 6% respectively, the Subcommittee hence considered the rates too high.
(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MR RONNY TONG, took the Chair)
The Administration indicated a need for expanding the scope of certain types of legal proceedings under the expanded SLAS, including civil proceedings relating to the Labour Tribunal appeals and civil proceedings relating to claims for professional negligence. The higher rates of final contribution for these claims are set on the grounds that the cases concerned are generally more complex and have a higher risk profile, giving rise to relatively expensive legal costs.
The Administration also indicated that the SLAS is funded by the Supplementary Legal Aid Fund (SLAF), and it is difficult to estimate the exact financial implications of expanding the scope of the SLAS, it is therefore necessary to set the rates of contribution for such types of legal proceedings at 20% and 15% at the outset to ensure that the financial viability of the SLAF can be maintained.
The Subcommittee considered that the Administration is overly prudent in setting the final contribution rates for the above types of legal proceedings at such high rates of 20% and 15%, having regard to the fact that legal aid would only be granted for cases which have passed the merits test. Some members pointed out that other cases under the SLAS, such as employees' compensation and personal injuries claims which have high success rate in the past, should be able to "cross-subsidize" the riskier cases. Accordingly, the SLAF would not fail to cope with the financial impacts arising from the expansion of scope of legal aid at present.
In this regard, the Subcommittee hopes that the Administration can respond to our requests to revisit the issues in relation to such rates and adjust the rates as appropriate, in light of some operational experience. The Administration does LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2651 not rule out reducing the rates, as had been done in the past, if the SLAF can be maintained at a level sufficient to provide legal services to people who are financially in need.
Deputy President, I personally consider that legal aid is an essential component in the rule of law. Deputy President, as you have just mentioned, legal aid serves a very important function and plays a great role in relation to the core value of the rule of law in Hong Kong.
The legal profession certainly supports the expansion of legal aid in principle, in particular the scope of the SLAS. In terms of specific details, there are some views from the legal profession, such as the rates of contribution mentioned earlier, both The Law Society of Hong Kong and the Hong Kong Bar Association (Bar Association) consider the proposal of the Home Affairs Bureau overly prudent. More importantly, almost the whole legal profession unanimously consider that the expansion of the scope of legal aid or SLAS by the Home Affairs Bureau is still too restrictive, and the whole legal aid system is still not adequate enough to satisfy Hong Kong people, in particular the needs of many middle-class people.
In this regard, I would like to raise some points, which have also been included in the submissions from the Bar Association. First of all, legal aid should cover more types of cases, such as cases in the Court of Final Appeal, class action cases, claims against owners' corporations, claims by minority owners against developers in compulsory sale of units, claims arising from sale of goods and provision of services, and so on. In respect of the response or attitude of the Legal Aid Department (LAD) and the Home Affairs Bureau on these points, the Bar Association considered that the scope of legal aid is too narrow, which fails to cover many types of cases that require legal aid, in particular class actions. I hope the Home Affairs Bureau can examine the expansion of the scope of SLAS as soon as possible.
Deputy President, you have also mentioned earlier the issue on the provision of legal aid by an independent authority. At present, the LAD is a government department. The legal profession unanimously considers that the LAD must become independent, as people genuinely trust that an independent legal aid authority can process legal aid applications independently and professionally. This is very important.
2652 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Deputy President, the Subcommittee supports the commencement of the above two amendment regulations and the Resolution on 30 November 2012.
Last of all, the Subcommittee considered that the Administration should further expand the scope of the SLAS to include more new types of cases, including but not limited to class actions mentioned earlier, so as to benefit more middle-class people. The Subcommittee agreed to refer the issue to the Panel on Administration of Justice and Legal Services for further follow-up.
Thank you, Deputy President.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now announce that Members have already spoken. I now call upon the Secretary for Home Affairs to speak. This debate will come to a close after the Secretary has spoken.
SECRETARY FOR HOME AFFAIRS (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I thank Members for the views expressed. I am now going to give an overall response.
On 17 July this year, the Legislative Council passed the resolution to expand the scope of the Ordinary Legal Aid Scheme (OLAS) and the Supplementary Legal Aid Scheme (SLAS) (Resolution). Subsequently, the Chief Executive-in-Council made two pieces of subsidiary legislation, namely the Legal Aid (Amendment) Regulation 2012 and the Legal Aid (Assessment of Resources and Contributions) (Amendment) Regulation 2012 (Amendment Regulations) on 25 September this year, to provide for the application fees and rates of contribution applicable to the newly added legal proceedings under the expanded SLAS and the civil proceedings relating to claims for professional negligence.
Having regard to the self-financing design of the SLAS and the complexity and risk profile of the new types of civil proceedings under the SLAS, we have, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2653 on the recommendation of the Legal Aid Services Council, increased the application fees and rates of contribution for a majority of new types of cases to maintain the financial viability of the Supplementary Legal Aid Fund (SLAF).
From the experience of the OLAS and SLAS, the success rate of personal injuries, fatal accident and employees' compensation claims is high, which is about 90%, while that in respect of professional negligence cases is relatively low. As the maximum liability for costs of an aided person under SLAS if the case is lost is limited to the application fee and interim contribution paid, any shortfall in the total costs of the case would be borne by the SLAF in full. The amounts required to be borne by the SLAF if the case is lost are always higher than the final contribution from successful cases. For example, the balance of the SLAF used to be in excess of $100 million. However, as a result of losing one case of personal injury funded by the SLAS, the SLAF has to fork out about $17 million to meet the total legal costs of the case. The balance of the SLAF is currently about $88 million only.
In view of the self-financing principle of the SLAS, we have set higher application fees and contribution rates for new types of legal proceedings under the SLAS, namely monetary claims in respect of professional negligence and negligence in taking out of personal insurance products, and monetary claims against the vendors in the sale of first-hand completed or uncompleted residential properties, in order to reflect the complexity of civil proceedings and maintain the financial viability of the SLAS.
After implementing the present legislative amendments, we will review the implications of these measures on the SLAF. In light of the practical experience and the financial status of the SLAF, we will study whether the rates could be reduced in the future.
I understand that some Members are concerned about whether aided persons could afford the contributions required. I have to reiterate that the SLAS is a self-financing scheme aiming at providing legal assistance to middle-class people with "disposable financial resources" between $260,000 and $1.3 million. The sustainability of the SLAS is supported by the contributions from aided persons and the costs recovered from cases. In this connection, aided persons who are able to pay contributions for engaging a legal representative should pay contributions commensurate with their financial means. 2654 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Aided persons who win the case can get the compensation recovered after deduction of the basic legal costs and the final contribution, as well as a refund of application fees and interim contributions.
As regards the new appeal cases of the Labour Tribunal under the SLAS, we have considered the difficulty that may be faced by employees and they are exempted from the increase in application fees and rates of contribution.
I also understand that Members hope that the Government can keep expanding the scope of the SLAS. With the implementation of the legislative amendments under the expanded SLAS on 30th this month, we will review the impacts of the new measures on the operation of the SLAS and SLAF, and invite the Legal Aid Services Council to further review the scope of the SLAS, having regard to practical experience. We will timely report the progress of review to the Legislative Council Panel on Administration of Justice and Legal Services as appropriate and maintain communication with the stakeholders concerned, including the two legal professional bodies.
We briefed the Legislative Council Panel on Administration of Justice and Legal Services on the recommendations and legislative amendments considered in March and December 2011 respectively, and obtained the support of members. Subsequently, the Legislative Council established a subcommittee to scrutinize the Resolution and Amendment Regulations, which have gained the endorsement of the Subcommittee.
As regards the feasibility of establishing an independent legal aid authority as mentioned by Members, at present, the Legal Aid Department (LAD) provides legal aid services through professional staff. In respect of legislation and enforcement, safeguard measures have been put in place to ensure that the LAD can provide legal aid services in accordance with the Legal Aid Ordinance in an independent and transparent manner.
The Administration does not affect the operations of the LAD. In recent years, a number of cases involving the Government, including judicial review cases, have been granted legal aid. If an applicant is aggrieved by the decision of the LAD, he may lodge an appeal in accordance with the current statutory mechanism, and the appeal will be handled by the Registrar of the High Court or the Judge concerned. If the Administration is involved in a case, the LAD will LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2655 seek independent legal advice on the application to ensure that the cases are processed in an impartial manner.
Mr TONG has expressed his concern about the many cases of unrepresented litigation at present which are attributable to two reasons: firstly, lawyer fees may be high; secondly, the scope of legal aid is insufficient. I would like to tell Members, while some members of society may consider that they cannot afford the lawyer fees in Hong Kong nowadays, quite a number of lawyers are willing to provide pro bono services, apart from attending to their own business, by participating in a scheme initiated by the Government to provide legal advice to unrepresented litigants. We will conduct reviews after the scheme has been put into operation for some time for further improvement.
In addition to the above legislative amendments, in the 2010-2011 Policy Address, the Government announced that $100 million would be earmarked for injection into the SLAS where necessary to expand the scope of the SLAS and provide legal assistance in a greater variety of cases to benefit more middle-class people. In this connection, we planned to seek the approval of the Legislative Council Finance Committee in December this year for the injection of a one-off capital of $100 million to the SLAS to support the operation of the expanded SLAS. I hope the proposal can be submitted as scheduled and approved.
Deputy President, I so submit.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): In accordance with Rule 49E(9) of the Rules of Procedure, I shall not put any question on the motion.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The second and the third Members' motions. These are two motions with no legislative effect. I have accepted the recommendations of the House Committee: that is, the movers of motions each may speak, including reply, for up to 15 minutes, and have another five minutes to speak on the amendments; the movers of amendments each may speak for up to 10 minutes; and other Members each may speak for up to seven minutes. I am obliged to direct any Member speaking in excess of the specified time to discontinue.
2656 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Second Member's motion: Caring about the education, employment, housing, home acquisition and business start-up problems faced by young people.
Members who wish to speak in the motion debate will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon Mr CHAN Hak-kan to speak and move the motion.
CARING ABOUT THE EDUCATION, EMPLOYMENT, HOUSING, HOME ACQUISITION AND BUSINESS START-UP PROBLEMS FACED BY YOUNG PEOPLE
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I move that the motion, as printed on the Agenda, be passed.
Deputy President, Members should see that I wear a four-leaf clover on my chest, which symbolizes luck and youth. But are young people in Hong Kong really so lucky and happy? I dare not say so. If you walk into a community and ask some youngsters in the street at random what they need most for the time being, they will have lots of complaints. The most often-heard complaint is, "At present, it is very difficult to find a place to live, it is costly to pursue further studies, it is hard to find a desirable job, and we are clueless about how to start up a business." Therefore, today, I propose this "four-pronged" motion, in the hope of arousing the Government's concern on youth-related problems in those four areas.
Deputy President, I believe a civilized society is obliged to help people in need, and people who are capable should give back to the community. The better our young people develop, the more capable they will be to contribute to the community. In order to enable our young people have healthy development and eventually become self-reliant, there are four essential elements, which are indeed the "four-pronged" problems mentioned by me earlier. Yet, over the years, I have not seen any comprehensive youth policy formulated by the Government. I therefore propose today's motion to call on the Government to systematically formulate a youth policy.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2657
Deputy President, I am sorry to see that today's motion has drawn the presence of three Directors of Bureaux for replies. Just think, if we have a comprehensive youth policy, to be overseen by a Director of Bureau, there is surely no need for three Directors of Bureaux to attend this meeting at the same time. From this, you can see how fragmented our youth policy is.
I notice that the Government always stresses the need to help the most needy, but this should not be used as a shield. As we can see, young people of this generation are also in desperate need for help. Deputy President, I want to quote a remark made by Secretary Matthew CHEUNG in 2010, which still upset me. Deputy President, I will read it out in full. (I quote) He said, "The unemployment rate of young people aged 15 to 24 is often higher than the overall unemployment rate. This phenomenon, however, is not peculiar to Hong Kong and happens in economies at various stages of economic development." (End of quote)
Deputy President, the remark made by the Secretary back then reminds me of a word commonly used by the youngsters, pronounced as "he3", meaning adopting a dilly-dally attitude. Should we look at youth problem as if it is a norm, saying that this is universal phenomenon and requires no action? Why does he adopt such a dilly-dally attitude?
The Census and Statistics Department has recently published some interesting statistics, which reflected certain fact or truth. Yet, my interpretation of the statistics is different from that of the Government. Deputy President, do you know how many males aged 25 to 34 live with their families? It was 52% in 2001. However, as at last year (2011), 60% of males of that age group live with their families. How about females? Nearly 50% live with their families. This reflects a pretty interesting phenomenon. The interpretation of the Director of Census and Statistics was that young people like to remain single. My interpretation however is that this phenomenon reflects a serious problem with our housing policy, resulted in late marriage. I wish to ask the three Directors of Bureaux: If you have a daughter, do you wish her to marry someone who does not have a property? Do you wish to see her moving from one place to another as a result of landlord increasing rent and compelling her to move out?
Deputy President, there was a bird's nest outside the former Legislative Council Building. A pair of birds used to fly there every year to give birth to 2658 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 their babies, raise them and teach them to fly. Subsequently, the grown-up birds would fly away. I wonder why more and more young people choose to live with their parents, but not fly away like those birds. While some may choose to be single, I believe being unable to fly or unable to leave is not a personal choice.
Deputy President, there is an article which I find very meaningful. It was published by the Hong Kong Economic Times on 20 November, which explains clearly why our young people choose not to fly away. Let me quote from the article, which states that (I quote): "While young people do not get pay rise, inflation has risen year on year. Their salaries have therefore been eroded, making it more difficult for them to save money. Many 'post-80s' and 'post-90s' have no hope of home acquisition, they thus join the queue for public rental housing (PRH) allocation." (End of quote)
Deputy President, I believe many young people would like to buy their own flat with their hard-earned savings and do not want to apply PRH as soon as they reach the age of 18. Nonetheless, as you can see, the home acquisition ladder has been broken. As there is no hope for home ownership, young people can only apply for PRH as the second option or first apply for PRH, hoping to use it as a springboard for Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats.
I am not going to talk about the root cause of this problem as many colleagues have done so. It is the imbalance between supply and demand in the housing market that causes property prices to hike. Therefore, in the motion, I propose to ensure the annual production of 20 000 private residential flats and construct at least 5 000 HOS flats each year; re-launch the Sandwich Class Housing Scheme, and conduct a study on re-launching some home starter loan schemes. I think these proposals of mine can solve the housing problems of young people.
Deputy President, the "four-pronged" problems mentioned by me right at the beginning are inter-related, and one can serve as the facilitator of the other. Only with a stable home can young people concentrate on their career and pursue further studies. Likewise, good career development can help them climb up the housing ladder. As one's youthful days are limited, one may waste his time if he is unemployed. The Government must do something to address the high unemployment rate of young people. Let me cite an example. The construction industry, for example, has launched a "hire first, train later" LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2659 programme. It has therefore attracted many young people to join the industry, thereby relieving the serious manpower shortage problem. In my view, the Government should make reference to this programme, expand the private-public partnership to encourage the employment of young people with less working experience, and share the costs with them. There is also a need to enhance the existing Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme, and in particular, raise the level of the relevant subsidies to $3,000, so as to attract the participation of more employers.
With regard to working young people, self-enrichment is vital for salary increase and promotion. Although the Government has provided various subsidies to encourage young people to pursue continuous education, many young employees cannot find time for further studies as they are very much occupied with their work, or they have to work overtime very often. I therefore consider that the Government should provide incentives to employers, such as tax concessions, so that they will provide young employees with "training leave" to pursue further studies and acquire professional qualifications by examination.
Deputy President, another way out for young people is to start up their own business. Nonetheless, young entrepreneurs usually have to face the two major problems of lack of capital and lack of business start-up training, which may pose difficulties in attaining success in business start-up. The existing loan schemes provided by the Government mainly target at small and medium enterprises, which often require enterprises to have certain years of operation or past record of operation. Even if certain loan schemes do not care much about the companies' years of operation, the interests charged will add to the burden of young people who plan to start up their own business.
Services currently provided by the Government for young entrepreneurs are mainly hardware support, to the neglect of complementary software, such as teaching young people on marketing and the concept of sales promotion, and arranging them to have business co-operation with other companies. I therefore hope that the Government will, on the one hand, establish a start-up fund to provide loans to young people who have business start-up plans but lack the capital, and on the other hand, offer "business start-up training programmes" for the provision of the necessary business start-up knowledge, so as to assist young people in devising and implementing their business start-up plans.
2660 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Deputy President, education is a requisite for either getting a good job or starting up a business. In order to enhance the competitiveness of young people, the Government should increase the number of university places. Take the first Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education Examination (HKDSE) as an example. Although 26 000 students have met the minimum requirements for enrolment in universities, the JUPAS Office can only provide 12 000 subsidized university places. In other words, 14 000 students will be shut out.
Young people who fail to secure university places may enrol in associate degree courses or other diploma courses. And yet, over the years, the Government still cannot resolve the bottleneck problem regarding the articulation pathways for associate degree graduates. Nor can it address the unclear positioning of associate degree programmes. Employers also queried the qualification recognition of sub-degrees or various diplomas. In my opinion, the Government should increase the places for publicly-funded bachelor's degree programmes and various types of diploma programmes, and enhance the qualification recognition of the HKDSE, sub-degrees and the Yi Jin Diploma in Hong Kong, the Mainland and the international community.
At present, the articulation of post-secondary graduates to the labour market is not smooth in various respects. For example, we sometimes learn from media reports that some graduates lack the basic job-seeking skills or have no idea of what they want to do, and are uncertain about their future. I suggest that the Government should initiate cross-departmental co-operation, and the Labour and Welfare Bureau should also join hand with the Education Bureau to actively promote "career planning" in secondary schools, provide information about employment or business start-up for young people, or help them to get ready to join the industry in which they are interested in the future. In conclusion, I do not think that the Government should not incline to the spirit of defeatism and accede to the fact that the unemployment rate of young people remains high.
Deputy President, as I have said right at the beginning, the Government lacks a comprehensive youth policy or I fail to see any full co-operation among various departments. All along, its attitude towards young people is not active at all. I do not think we should allow such a dilly-dally attitude to continue. I therefore hope that the three Directors of Bureaux will stop thinking that the youth problem is only of secondary importance.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2661
Deputy President, perhaps some people may say that the road walked by the last generation was also rough ― it seems that you had also lived in cubicle apartments before you fight your way to success ― but it does not mean that the next generation must also walk a rough road. If the Government is willing to do something, I think young people can have a smooth development. I opine that the relevant departments should make a concerted effort to tackle the "four-pronged" problem. Young people are the hope of the community, and we are therefore obliged to ensure that they can grow healthily and realize their full potential, and subsequently contribute to the community.
With these remarks, Deputy President, I beg to move.
Mr CHAN Hak-kan moved the following motion: (Translation)
"That young people are the future pillars of society, but in the face of globalization and the rapid development of neighbouring regions, Hong Kong young people not only face many challenges during their growth, but also lack upward mobility opportunities, and their aspirations are particularly salient in respect of education, employment, housing, home acquisition and business start-up; however, the Government currently does not formulate any comprehensive support measures mainly targeted at young people to assist them in concentrating on education, establishing career, and resolving the problems of housing and business start-up, thus causing problems such as mismatch of manpower resources, high youth unemployment rate and accumulation of social grievances, which are not conducive to the long-term development of Hong Kong society; in this connection, this Council urges the Government to care about young people's needs; the specific measures should include:
Education -
(a) to increase the places for publicly-funded bachelor's degree programmes and various types of diploma programmes, and enhance the qualification recognition of the Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education Examination, sub-degrees and the Yi Jin Diploma in Hong Kong, the Mainland and the international community, so as to widen young people's pathways of further studies;
2662 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
(b) to comprehensively review the assistance as well as loans and repayment arrangements under the various existing student finance schemes, abolish the risk rate, set an interest rate ceiling for the Non-means Tested Loan Scheme at 2.5%, and replace the means-tested loans with interest-free loans;
(c) to comprehensively review the Continuing Education Fund Scheme, raise the cap on the amount of subsidy receivable by each applicant to $20,000, and extend the period of four years within which applicants must submit all claims as required by the Scheme, etc., so as to encourage young people to pursue continuing education;
Employment -
(d) to review the employment training support services for young people, enhance the existing Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme, and raise the level of the relevant subsidies to $3,000, so as to attract the participation of more employers to provide more employment and training opportunities suitable for young people in the market;
(e) to set up more 'Youth Employment Start' ('Y.E.S.') resource centres throughout Hong Kong, strengthen the training targeted at young people, enhance their employment skills, and provide one-stop employment counselling;
(f) to promote the commencement of 'career planning' at the stage of secondary education, so as to enable secondary students to make better planning for their future career development;
(g) to motivate employers to provide employees with 'training leave', including offering tax concessions to such employers, so as to facilitate working young people to pursue studies and acquire professional qualifications by examination;
(h) to co-operate with public and private organizations and enterprises to encourage the employment of young people with less working LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2663
experience and share with them the relevant salary payments, so as to increase young people's chances of securing employment;
Housing and home acquisition -
(i) to build more public rental housing ('PRH') flats, and review the existing eligibility criteria for applying for PRH, so as to formulate a more reasonable and fairer method for waiting for and allocation of PRH for young people;
(j) to construct at least 5 000 Home Ownership Scheme flats each year, re-launch the Sandwich Class Housing Scheme, and ensure the annual provision of 20 000 private residential flats, so as to build an integrated housing ladder for people;
(k) on the premise of having an adequate supply of private housing, to conduct a study on re-launching the Home Starter Loan Scheme focusing on young people with relatively stable financial income;
Business start-up -
(l) to establish a start-up fund for young people, so as to provide loans to young people who have business start-up plans but lack the capital; and
(m) to offer 'business start-up training programmes' for the provision of the necessary business start-up knowledge, so as to assist young people in devising and implementing their business start-up plans."
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr CHAN Hak-kan be passed.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Eight Members will move amendments to this motion. This Council will now proceed to a joint debate on the motion and the eight amendments.
2664 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
I will first call upon Mr KWOK Wai-keung to speak, to be followed by Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Dr Helena WONG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Charles Peter MOK and Mr IP Kin-yuen respectively; but they may not move the amendments at this stage.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I thank Mr CHAN Hak-kan for proposing this four-page motion today to express his concern about the development of young people. With regard to this comprehensive motion, Miss CHAN Yuen-han and I from the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU) have proposed amendments. It is hoped that by proposing amendments to the motion, we can enrich the motion, thereby securing more concern and care from the Government for young people.
Deputy President, youth policy will affect the future development of young people and the community, and its importance is beyond question. But unfortunately, in the past years' of administration, the Government has not formulated sufficient tailor-made and appropriate support measures for young people. As a result, young people in Hong Kong have become melancholy and moody. They are melancholy as they worry about their studies, employment, accommodation and future prospect; they are moody because they have a feeling of depression, sadness and helplessness.
The FTU has all along been concerned about the development and future of young people. This time, we propose amendments to the original motion to incorporate more proposals that are closely related to young people, hoping that the Government will look squarely at the proposals and expeditiously implement them. Due to the limited time available, I will try to focus on the following points.
Firstly, to comprehensively review the various existing student finances schemes. "Debt-ridden before graduation" is the portrayal of local students nowadays. Since the Government promotes university places for all, many young people from low-income families thus have a chance to enrol in programmes of post-secondary or above level. However, in the present society, such academic qualification and knowledge have not brought them the opportunity of upward mobility. Rather, they become debt-ridden because of student loans. This is tantamount to "getting a good beating before seeing the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2665 official". They are burdened with debts before they graduate, and the creditor is the Government.
Deputy President, if we calculate on the basis of the new academic structure, a student will probably need to borrow at least $300,000 to pay for the tuition fees and living expenses in order to complete the four-year university curriculum. Assuming that the loan has to be repaid in 10 years, the repayment will be $9,000 per quarter (that is, every three months) and the interest accrued during these 10 years will be nearly $40,000 (which is 13% of the principal). This has added to their burden.
In fact, the high interest rate of the Non-means Tested Loan Scheme has long been criticized. Applicants are not only required to pay interests at the prevailing interest rate ― which is calculated on a floating-rate basis, and therefore subject to adjustment ― there is also a risk-adjusted factor. As the interest accrued will adjust with the interest rate and is calculated upon drawdown of the loan, this has aggravated the burden on university students. How much do Members expect a university student can earn? Take lawyers as an example, a trainee only receives a basic salary of a few thousand dollars during the first two years. Hence, given the low income, how can they repay the huge debt within a short period? While borrowing student loans has imposed a heavy burden on young people, the high interest is an additional torture, just like rubbing salt into the wounds, and it has serious adverse impact on the younger generation.
In this connection, I urge the Government to significantly lower the interest rates of all loan schemes for tertiary students and waive the interest accrued during students' study periods under the Non-means Tested Loan Scheme, as well as abolish the risk rate to relieve the burden of poor students, with a view to displaying the Government's determination to help young people.
Secondly, to strengthen the employment training and proactively develop apprenticeship programmes. Deputy President, the FTU has conducted a survey on young people's views on life planning. The findings showed that the working young people in various industries are concerned about career development, and this issue alone has caused great anxieties, as career development may affect their future life, career prospect and vision.
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Young people feel worried mainly because they lack a sense of security and confidence in career development. Very often, no promotion ladder is available for them to move upward. Furthermore, in order to save costs, many employers often employ young people as contract or temporary staff. This form of employment fails to provide young people with a sense of belonging and job security, as well as on-the-job training. Without a sense of stability, how can they plan for the future at ease?
Therefore, Deputy President, I think that apart from the traditional academic learning, the Government should also strengthen vocational education for students of post-secondary and tertiary institutions, as well as review and consolidate the various existing training programmes for youngsters, such as the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme, the Yi Jin Diploma programme and the Teen's Programme. This would help young people develop their interest and talents, so that they can fully develop their capabilities and identify their career prospects and goals at an early stage.
In fact, schools can provide more opportunities for students to meet and come into contacts with successful people from various industries, thereby enabling them to learn about the actual operation and future development of various industries, as well as gain a good understanding of the way forward of different industries at an early stage. In order to encourage working young people to pursue continuous education and maintain their competitiveness in the job market ― because the Government said that the competitiveness of young people, who are the major impetus of future competition, has been called into question ― the Government should expeditiously implement standard working hours, as proposed by the FTU, to ensure that wage earners can have spare time to pursue continuous education; moreover, it should also motivate employers of various industries to provide employees with paid on-the-job training. Furthermore, in the amendment, we have requested the Government to increase the amount of subsidy receivable by each applicant under the Continuing Education Fund Scheme to $40,000, with four reimbursements claims made within 10 years.
Also, I have urged the authorities to proactively develop apprenticeship schemes and consolidate various similar programmes, so as to enable young people to acquire skills by practicing while learning. In the long run, this will LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2667 enable them to further develop in the relevant profession, which is conducive to addressing the problems of job mismatch and structural unemployment. Members from the FTU have actually put forward many proposals time and again, but it seems that the Government has turned a deaf ear and no extra effort has been made in this regard.
According to the information provided by the Labour and Welfare Bureau, 3 512 youngsters joined the apprentice programmes in 2009-2010, but the number dropped to 3 376 in 2010-2011 and slightly rebounded to 3 583 in late January 2012. Is the insignificant growth attributable to youngsters' reluctance to join, or are people's unawareness of the programmes due to insufficient publicity by the Government? Given that a lot of resources have been put into the development of various programmes, why did the Government not step up and enhance publicity in this regard? The Government should seriously consider and review how the programmes can become more popular.
With regard to housing, it seems that Mr CHAN Hak-kan was talking about me earlier. I am now 34 years old and I live with my family. I do not have my own home. Although I have earned more after joining the Legislative Council, the increase still cannot catch up with the exorbitant property prices. We hope that the long-, medium- and short-term plans introduced by the Government can help young people meet their housing needs. While the 10 initiatives recently introduced by the Government have significantly reduced the number of property transaction cases, there is no significant lowering of property prices to such an extent that young people can afford to buy their own homes. If young people think that they can acquire a flat with their income from work, it is really a fantasy.
Deputy President, as a young person (The buzzer sounded) …… We hope that the Government would care about the development of young people. Thank you, Deputy President.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): Deputy President, in discussing the youth problems, we cannot simply talk about the various social phenomena related to young people, list out the various problems and then propose some measures. My amendment proposes to start with the system. I consider that the problem should be tackled from a policy perspective by requesting the 2668 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Government to set up a co-ordinating department responsible for youth affairs, so that comprehensive consideration can be made. In order to genuinely formulate policies and measures which cater to the needs of the youngsters, it is essential to promote their social participation. Without their participation, their voices will not be heard and the Government will only work behind closed doors. It is downright impossible for youth measures to meet the actual needs of young people. Perhaps we should start with the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme (YPTP).
Hong Kong's economy was in the doldrums in the aftermath of the financial turmoil in late 1998, and young school leavers aged between 15 and 19 had encountered serious employment problem. However, the Government had responded by merely increasing the places offered by the Vocational Training Council, the Construction Industry Council and government evening schools, so that these youngsters could receive vocational training or pursue further studies. While proclaiming that young people could receive better training before entering the employment market, the Government was actually trying to suppress the unemployment rate. These hasty measures certainly did not turn out well. After serious thinking and taking heed of certain views, the Government finally introduced the YPTP in September 1999, which Members should be familiar with. The YPTP includes three elements, namely modular training courses, workplace attachment training and on-the-job training, which aims to enhance the employability and competitiveness of young people. The idea of the YPTP is good for it provides young people with concrete opportunities and multiple pathways for development. What is more, it cross-cuts the education and labour departments, and this is the first attempt to adopt an integrated approach to make plans for the youngsters. If the Government steers towards the provision of opportunities and hopes, works hand-in-hand with the social work, education and labour sectors, and carefully arranges tailor-made resources to practicably take the programme forward, it may open up a new horizon for youth development.
Unfortunately, the YPTP has become a chicken rib which is tasteless to the tongue but a bit of waste to throw it away. As pointed out by a seasoned social worker serving young people, "When the YPTP, which has implemented for many years, was launched in 1999, the Government offered each trainee an allowance of $2,000. It was well received by many organizations and they were willing to take part in it. However, 10 years later, the allowance is still $2,000. Some trainees considered it inadequate." It turned out that, as the social worker LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2669 has said, the YPTP, with non-engaged youths as target, is just a thin layer of touch-up paint, which is neither anti-mould nor waterproof, and will peel off easily. The problem is therefore exposed again.
Let us discuss tertiary education. According to United Nations' Human Development Report 2010, among the 42 very high human development economies, Hong Kong's ranking in respect of the admission rate of higher education is not as high as our ranking in the most competitive economies. We ranked ninth from the bottom, and our ranking is still the lowest even when compared with Asian countries of similar level. This year is the so-called double-cohort year, and there were 19 570 students whose results have met the general entrance requirements for publicly-funded tertiary institutions but could not be admitted. These students were thus forced to enrol in self-financing undergraduate or associate degree programmes which charge extremely high tuition fees. The tuition fees of self-financing undergraduate programmes range from $50,000 to $80,000 per year, and for a four-year programme, about $300,000 are required for tuition fee alone. The tuition fees of associate degree programmes are also as high as $50,000 or $60,000 per year. Hence, many students have to take out loans for their education. Worse still, the Social Welfare Department (SWD) has abolished post-secondary students' application for Comprehensive Social Security Assistance (CSSA), so they are forced to take out loans to meet the living expenses.
A tertiary student sought assistance from my office in July, saying that he and his family have joined the CSSA Scheme since 2007 and he was admitted to an associate degree programme in September 2011. Yet, he was later disqualified by the SWD from applying CSSA and was forced to apply for financial assistance and living expenses loan from the Student Financial Assistance Agency. In other words, he was forced to take out loans for his tertiary education. Although the amount of loan (that is, the living expenses loan) is just $37,000-odd each year, his family not only has received a lesser amount of financial assistance, they also worry how the loan amounting to $110,000-odd can be repaid three years later.
No matter how hard youngsters of CSSA families study, the Government will mercilessly force them to take out loans. How come our Government is so rigid in enforcing the policy? Worse still, it has dealt a blow on youngsters of CSSA families, without taking into consideration their difficulties and needs, and 2670 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 thus undermined their academic development. I feel deeply regretful about this. Therefore, I request the SWD to immediately allow these young people to apply for either the living expenses loan or CSSA, so as to cope with the financial needs arising from their studies. If students are debt-ridden before graduation, receive an hourly wage of $30; live in sub-divided units, or work for the LEE's family for the entire life after buying a tiny apartment which they can barely live in, how can they strive for further progress and live without worries? Our teachers and social workers have reached out, heard of and understand these specific youth problems, but the Government has turned a deaf ear and a blind eye to such problems, and refused to reach out to young people.
I therefore request the Government to review every three years the various existing student finances schemes, which include the method and level of financial assistance, as well as the loans and repayment arrangements, and change the time to commence calculating interests under the Non-means Tested Loan Scheme to after borrowers' graduation, with a view to alleviating the pressure and burden of the students and families concerned. Above all, it should halt the privatization of education and put it back on the track led by publicly-funded degree places. Given that Hong Kong is financially sound at present with an annual surplus of $30 billion to $40 billion over the past 10 years, and people felt the pinch from arbitrarily handing out the surplus, I therefore solemnly urge the Government to immediately study the implementation of 19-year free education starting from, for example, pre-primary education to tertiary education; amend the applicability of the Minimum Wage Ordinance to cover university students interns who work less than 59 days, and make permanent the existing 3 000 Programme Worker posts created for young people. The authorities should, on the one hand, fully safeguard the rights of young people to receive elementary to higher level of education and remove all obstacles impeding further studies and all kind of unfair treatments, and provide specific support to help youngsters get employed on the other. Meanwhile, the authorities should start from the area of education. A co-ordinating department responsible for youth affairs should be set up to formulate the youth policy which has been pursued by the community for years, with a view to helping youngsters to firstly receive good education, and then gradually build up their career and enhance personal development, with a view to solving their problems relating to housing, employment, health and social participation at root.
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Deputy President, how can we address the difficulties currently encountered by young people in moving up the social ladder and how can we formulate a comprehensive plan in this regard? How do the youth services promoted by the Government meet the needs of young people? Even if there is a youth policy as proclaimed by the Government, it is after all a youth policy without young people's participation and has nothing to do with them at all. The key to solving these problems is to enhance young people's social participation and provide more opportunities for them to express their views.
In fact, the problems faced by young people have indirectly reflected the lack of long-term planning in policy areas, such as political system, education, housing, labour, social security and social welfare. The Government should no longer be that short sighted and should formulate adequate long-term plans. I reiterate that the Government should expeditiously democratize the political system; implement genuine universal suffrage; set up a universal retirement protection scheme; formulate long-term social welfare plans and establish standard working hours.
Deputy President, I so submit.
MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): It is very rare for us, the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (FTU), to have two Members proposing amendments to the same motion, but we do it today. One of the reasons is, as mentioned by Mr KWOK Wai-keung, the scope of this motion is very wide. Yet, more importantly, over the past decade or so, we have been crying out loud about the four areas of concern, both in this Council and in the community. These problems are exactly some of the deep-rooted problems in Hong Kong as mentioned by Premier WEN. I hope that today's debate can really draw the attention of the three Directors of Bureaux to these problems. If it makes no impression on them, this debate will be meaningless. However, I will continue to propose my amendment. Deputy President, it is impossible for me to give a full account of my amendment in 10 minutes, so let me start now.
First of all, I would like to explain why my amendment focuses on the creative industry. We have learnt from the experience of our neighbouring 2672 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Asian countries that a diversified economy is needed for us to solve the difficulties in job-hunting and the problem of working poor among our youths. The creative industry which first emerged in the United Kingdom some 10 or 20 years ago has spread to Asian countries, and many of them are doing well in this industry. Places like Seoul of South Korea and Taiwan are some real examples which can be learnt by the Government. Unfortunately, our Government has simply ignored their experience.
Why do I say so? When Donald was in office, he said that he would develop the six industries with competitive edge, including the creative industry. While he promised that the Government would revitalize industrial buildings and support the creative industry, what do we have right now? The development of the creative industry has turned into a real estate project. It gives profits to those in the real estate industry but drives away people in the cultural and creative industries. What does the Government think about this situation? Supposedly, the revitalization of industrial buildings is to foster the development of the creative industry. How come the revitalization projects end up in driving away the creative talents? Similar cases can also be found in the redevelopment projects of the Urban Renewal Authority (URA), and we still have a lot more examples in hand. Yet, if I have to give all these examples, I am afraid it will take me a longer time than that allowed for this motion debate.
What I want to bring out is that if the Government wants to solve this problem, it must first deal with several important issues. Otherwise, I am afraid it will just end up with different Directors of Bureaux giving different views. It will be meaningless and Hong Kong will waste another five years. In that way, CY will also waste us five years. I must say that Members of this Council, as well as various groups making outcry in the community, sometimes do feel tired.
Deputy President, I do not want to see the existing industrial building revitalization projects fall into the hands of large developers; I also do not want to see the conversion of industrial buildings into hotels or youth hostels, jacking up the rents since the owners will then refuse to renew their leases and force out the tenants one by one. In my old constituency, which is Kowloon East, there are many creative talents in San Po Kong and Kwun Tong. I had previously grouped them together to meet with Carrie LAM, who was then responsible for implementing the revitalizing policy, and urged the Government to introduce new measures.
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What are these measures? They are relevant to my speech today. In the redevelopment of industrial buildings, owners should be required to leave 25% or 20% of areas to young people who aspire to a career in the creative industry. This is the approach taken by the United States of America, Europe, Japan and some other places. I just came back from Taiwan, and Taiwan is a classic example of helping the youth build their businesses through land provision. They are not acting like Carrie LAM, who then told me, "Miss CHAN, you cannot ask me to introduce this measure since people may say that it will benefit developers." I replied that it was fine for her to introduce this measure in our names. If developers are really sincere in allowing the youth to bring their creativity into play, we can certainly think of some relevant restrictions which are not unique to us but are adopted by other countries. Therefore, I must say that the Government should be held largely responsible for today's situation. I must stress once again that land is a very important factor. If the Government does not start from this point, it will be undesirable.
Of course, the Government may respond by saying, "Miss CHAN, you say that our industrial building revitalization projects are unsuccessful, but we have got the Cattle Depot, Shek Kip Mei Estate, the Police Station Compound at Hollywood Road, and so on." I am not denying any of these projects but the problem is: Whenever a project is taken up by the Government, the original occupants will often be forced out. I really do not know why. For example, while the Cattle Depot has accommodated a group of young creative talents, its management approach and present development are drowning these young people. This is how the entire Government develops its policies: Always in a piecemeal manner. The Government should not later tell me about the successful cases in Aberdeen or in other areas. It is meaningless. They are just some trivial things done by the Government to cover up the major problems, and the Government can tell the public that it has taken some actions. Can these actions solve the double-digit long-term unemployment rate of youngsters aged between 15 and 19? No, they cannot. On this issue, I must emphasize that if the Government is not determined to do something in respect of land, it can never solve the problems faced by the creative industry today. If the Government can make its policies clear, and the URA conduct consultations before redeveloping any areas to clarify what activities are allowed in a particular area, they will bring job opportunities to young people and the working poor.
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I often say that when there is land, there can be a diversified economy. This is a very important view. I once said that ― I had not yet left the Legislative Council at that time ― there is the Kai Tak River in Wong Tai Sin …… I appreciate the development of Cheong Gye Cheon of Seoul, and I appreciate LEE Myung-bak too. He has written a book Cheong Gye Cheon Flows To The Future, describing how he brought changes to Cheong Gye Cheon. He had come across many difficulties as this project involved the interests of developers and many other parties. Yet, he managed to overcome all these difficulties one by one. I had asked CHENG Yiu-tong to give Donald TSANG Yam-kuen a copy of this book. If CY is interested in this book, I can give one to him as well. However, the condition is that he must put what he has learnt from this book into practice.
How did South Korea make it? South Korea was mired into difficulties after the 1998 Asian financial crisis but it later rose again by developing various creative industries. The Legislative Council Panel on Manpower had visited South Korea before, and the Asian Television Limited was with us then. South Korea had made use of its rich experience to help creative talents. Today, this country does not only have some simple creative products; it has also fostered the growth of Samsung, which is now a very popular brand, and the development of many electronic appliances. The most impressive thing is that, in Hong Kong, Korean drama series have now outplayed Japanese drama series, which were once very popular in Hong Kong. My family members who live next door to me now watch Korean drama series in the living room and Hong Kong's television programmes in bedroom. It shows that there is such a demand in the market.
Apart from drama series, South Korea is also developing their cosmetic and skin care industries which produce inexpensive products. South Korea has turned Dongdaemun into a place for fashion design where 70% to 80% of its designers gather to create their designs. It is just like Zara of Spain, which introduces the trendiest and the most beautiful fashion overseas to different markets shortly within one week. South Korea has learnt from the successful experience of Spain. Nowadays, many Hong Kong people go to Seoul to buy some inexpensive but beautiful clothes; lots of people also buy South Korea's pretty fashion online instead of buying clothes in Hong Kong. When we see the industries of another country have become more diversified and grown stronger, solving the problem of youth unemployment, it reminds me that we have pointed LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2675 out this issue time and again for almost 20 years but no one has listened to us. What we should do now?
Deputy President, in discussing this issue, we should start from land provision as it is the basis of economic diversification which will create more job opportunities to solve the problem of youth unemployment. To be frank, if land is not provided, the efforts put in training and re-training, as well as the programmes introduced by the Vocational Training Council, will be useless. Our young people will still be left unemployed and cannot apply their knowledge after receiving training …… recently, when I visited Taiwan, I saw that some streets were open for use by young people as night market. Can we do the same thing? Deputy President, there are a lot of land in Taiwan; the low rents allow the development of night markets for people to realize their dreams without the fear of failure. Their situation is indeed similar to the previous situation of Hong Kong after many local factories had moved northward. Many creative talents then tried to realize their dreams in industrial buildings. Yet, the Government policy is now driving them away ruthlessly, and I feel bitter about that.
When we come to this point, I think the Government must optimize the use of existing land. It does not matter if it cannot provide any sites right now. Just like the case of Kowloon East, it can develop Kai Tak to make it a better place for solving the problems of the three big districts, namely Kowloon City, Wong Tai Sin and Kwun Tong, as large sites are needed for various activities. More importantly, this development allows many poor youngsters to carry out lots of interesting activities. The Government has also undertaken to carry out a number of development projects, such as Kai Tak River. At the meeting of the Public Works Subcommittee this morning, I said that this project had finally succeeded after over a decade of works. The drainage channel is beginning to take shape, and it is modeled on Cheong Gye Cheon of Seoul. If this project can make the same achievement in the future, I will go and visit it again. However, such development warrants planning.
Besides, in Tai Hom Village, which is also in my old constituency, there is a site of 7.2 hectares. The Government has promised us to develop a cultural street and a living water garden. It has also undertaken to build an underground street which directly leads to San Po Kong and Kowloon East. When there is a plan like this, it cannot be realized unless everyone in the Government is devoted 2676 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 to making it happen. Years ago, Matthew CHEUNG said that he would solve the problems in Tin Shui Wai; but, ultimately, the whole thing turned out to be a property development project. I hope the same thing will not happen to the redevelopment of Tai Hom Village. At that time, we keenly hoped that the Hundred Taste Court could be built in Tin Shui Wai but our efforts were in vain. CHUA Lam then strongly criticized the Government.
Deputy President, lastly, I would like to make a conclusion. My conclusion is the same as what I said at the beginning of my speech, that is, I will not expect today's debate to bear any fruit. I speak on these old topics after rejoining the Council because I do not want the Government to strangle the opportunities of our young people and our traditional economic activities. Why cannot the North East New Territories Development include traditional organic agricultural activities? Why is it not possible? These traditional economic activities can absorb many unemployed people, and the dreams of many people lie in these activities. When there is Cheong Gye Cheon in South Korea, many special streets in Japan, and "Beijing 798" in China, why cannot Hong Kong do the same? Hong Kong, a place where Chinese and Western cultures meet, should be a good place for business start-ups and training. Regrettably, because of the lack of land, there is no opportunity for people to pursue their dreams. It is not right.
Deputy President, I so submit.
DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I have been teaching and researching at local and overseas universities for years. Therefore, I have lots of contact with young people and can often share with them their dreams, future plans and career aspirations. In the course of sharing, I have a stronger feeling that young people of Hong Kong are facing many difficulties, and it makes me feel sad and sentimental: I am sad about the unfairness in our society; and I feel sentimental for the young hopefuls since the procedure and system of formulating youth policies are distorted and undemocratic.
Deputy President, today, I propose an amendment on behalf of the Civic Party as we want to add some policy proposals across different areas to the original motion. In the view of the Civic Party, a sound monitoring and execution system is essential for any policies, regardless of which area they fall LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2677 under, to be effective in helping young people improve themselves and well realize their dreams. Also, we think that the voice of our youth is very often ignored. It is therefore necessary to enhance the participation of young people in the process of policy formulation and consultation. In the following speech, I will further elaborate our views on social participation, employment and education. As for our proposals on housing and home acquisition policies concerning the youths, they will later be explained by Dr KWOK Ka-ki of the Civic Party.
Deputy President, young people are perfectly competent to play a key role in the formulation and consultation of public policies. In the past few years, a number of public policy consultations have brought along large-scale social movements with profound impact. In the process, the organization and participation of young people had attracted people from different sectors and of different age groups to join in, calling for social reform. It proves that young people are enthusiastic, capable, ambitious and aspiring. The "Scholarism" Movement was a recent case in point, and an earlier example was the "Express Rail Link Movement". However, the interesting thing is that the Government seldom involves young people when it formulates youth policies. According to the Government's announcement in January 2010, among more than 400 advisory and statutory bodies in Hong Kong, only 25 of them had appointed individuals aged below 30 as non-official members. The percentage of young members was as low as 6.4%, and it took almost three years of discussion before the Home Affairs Bureau finally decided to invite three young people to join the Commission on Youth (COY) in April this year. Is the COY really a commission on youth? Or is it a commission for middle-aged people to show their concerns about youth affairs?
In the view of the Civic Party, in order to rectify the deficiencies of the system, there are three concrete proposals worth considering. Firstly, to perfect the existing mechanism for convening youth summits by increasing the frequency from biennial to yearly. Many a time, the biennial youth summits have turned into a news item and become political shows of the Chief Executive and many other senior officials, with young people acting as foils. Many young participants do not know what these summits are for after joining them. They are neither given opportunities to speak nor allowed to propose any agenda items of their concern. In the meanwhile, they cannot have much interaction with the attending officials. Also, there are many complaints alleging that participants of 2678 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 youth summits have to go through repeated screening before they can attend the summits and ask questions. As such, the youth submit is in itself a hurdle to the formulation of youth policies. It hinders communication and creates distance, and hence must be reformed.
Secondly, the Civic Party thinks that indicators should be set for the ratio of youth participation in advisory and statutory bodies. As a matter of fact, there are such indicators for women's participation in these bodies, though they should be reviewed constantly. Then, why do we not set indicators to propel the Government to appoint more young people to these bodies so that their views and voice can be directly heard in the consultation process?
Thirdly, to review the composition and functions of the COY. As I have just said, while the COY is the key advisory body in the formulation of Hong Kong's youth policies, its composition, including its Chairman and most of its members, seems to have missed out the voice and the participation of young people. Therefore, the Government should review the composition and functions of the COY or appoint more young members to make them the majority. It may also appoint representatives of youth service organizations and some relevant professionals to give a focused discussion on youth policy.
On employment, the recent Third Quarter Economic Report 2012 has showed that the youth unemployment rate remains high. While the overall unemployment rate in Hong Kong now stands at about 3%, the jobless rate of youths aged between 15 and 19 reaches 15.4%. This situation is frustrating and disappointing, and we consider the problem of youth unemployment very serious. Meanwhile, the newly-released Director of Audit's Report No. 59 has revealed that there is much room for improvement in the support schemes on youth employment and self-employment. According to this Report, as many as 80% of case managers, after participating in the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme, have provided less than 20 hours of support to each trainee. Worse still, half of the trainees have not received any assistance in the preparation of resume. Therefore, the Audit Commission has recommended that the Labour Department must review and improve its monitoring system on case managers, training courses and employers providing on-the-job training. Otherwise, it will be a waste of public money if these support schemes are ineffective.
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In principle, the Civic Party also agrees to study the introduction of new employment support initiatives, such as paid "training leave" and other incentive schemes which encourage the employment of young people who are green. Of course, the details of these initiatives must be studied carefully; but I think employers, trade unions and young people can all come together to discuss these initiatives.
Deputy President, regarding education, as I am a member of the education sector, the news report on education system in today's newspaper has certainly caught my eye. It states that Hong Kong's education system is ranked the third best all over the world. However, I do not mean to say that we should be proud of this news report. What I want to point out is that the percentage of undergraduate places in Hong Kong is 10% lower than that in Finland and South Korea. The continuous shortage of undergraduate places has forced local students to apply for universities in Taiwan, the Mainland and other places, or they may have to enrol in self-financing associate degree programmes. Yet, we have lately found that many associate degree programmes are not well regulated, resulting in serious over-admission which frustrates and baffles many students and their families. While students are forced to enrol in associate degree programmes, the Government has not regulated these programmes carefully to ensure their quality. Also, it has failed to give associate degree graduates a publicly-funded place to continue their studies in Hong Kong. In this respect, there is still much room for improvement. The Government must be aggressive, aspired and determined in improving the entire education system of Hong Kong, both in terms of quantity and quality.
In recent years, we have also found that there are some black sheep taking advantage of the loosely regulated Continuing Education Fund (CEF) courses to cheat. If this problem is not properly handled, and the CEF continues to give documentary approval and pay out reimbursements …… if the course coverage of the CEF is expanded before this problem is fixed, in my view, it is not fair to the students and their families. Therefore, the Civic Party suggests that the Government should strengthen its regulation in this regard, review the current regulation of courses eligible for subsidies to impose more stringent requirements on CEF courses, review the existing categories of CEF reimbursable courses, step up its efforts in conducting random checks, and research into course fees to see if there is the overcharging problem. By doing so, the Government can ensure that there is value for public and students' money.
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In addition, on self-financing programmes, the Government must face up to the problem of over-admission of associate degree and other programmes and immediately strengthen its regulation on these programmes. Of course, the best solution is to vigorously enhance our tertiary education, especially publicly-funded degree programmes.
Deputy President, on behalf of the Civic Party, I would like to briefly account for how we will vote for today's motion and amendments. We will support the original motion of Mr CHAN Hak-kan, as well as the amendments of Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Dr Helena WONG and Mr IP Kin-yuen. However, the Civic Party is highly concerned about the proposal of abolishing the well-off tenants policy in Mr KWOK Wai-keung's amendment. Dr KWOK Ka-ki of the Civic Party can later give further elaboration. Yet, as there is the word "studying" in his amendment, making this proposal an issue for study, we will not mind giving him our support. On the other hand, the Civic Party will vote against Mr Jeffrey LAM's amendment as he has deleted the proposal on improving student loan schemes to lessen the financial burden of graduates, the proposal on the newly proposed subsidy level under the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme, as well as the proposal on resuming the Home Ownership Scheme. These deletions are unacceptable to the Civic Party. We also oppose Mr Charles Peter MOK's amendment as he has deleted the whole part of "housing and home acquisition". It is not what we want to see.
Deputy President, many people ask me: When I see the learning attitude of the "post-00 generation" (The buzzer sounded) …… in school, will I think that the younger generations are worse than the older generations? However, I think the youth problems that we notice today ……
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The speaking time is up.
DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): …… are actually the reflections of our old days.
Deputy President, I so submit.
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DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): Deputy President, today, I have proposed an amendment to Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion. First of all, I am grateful to Mr CHAN Hak-kan for moving this motion on youth policies and proposing improvement measures to the Government. We think that the Hong Kong Government should listen to the innermost thoughts and feelings of young people and formulate a comprehensive youth policy as soon as possible.
I teach at university, and as an educator who teaches young people, I differ from Mr CHAN Hak-kan in analysing the reasons behind the problems facing the youth of today. My amendment therefore focuses on the preamble of the motion and the proposals on education.
Let me first talk about the preamble. In my view, the problems now facing the youth are not limited to those suggested by Mr CHAN Hak-kan, such as globalization or problems in areas like education, employment, and so on, caused by the rapid development of neighbouring regions. I think the root causes of their problems are the local systems and environment. The Government must not overlook these causes when it formulates youth policies or tries to help young people out of their difficulties in education, employment and other areas by providing comprehensive support.
What are the deep-rooted conflicts long existed in Hong Kong? In my amendment to the preamble, I have pointed out that the Government should seriously review the current problems in Hong Kong, including the absence of a democratic system, inability of people to effectively monitor the government returned by small-circle election, lopsided government policies towards the establishment as well as industrial and commercial interests, and failure to reasonably distribute social resources through a democratic system and fair mechanism. At present, the process of deciding and formulating public policies is in lack of genuine democratic consultation and public engagement; therefore, the voice of the youth and the public cannot be well reflected when the Government decides on education and housing affairs or formulates employment measures. Consequently, it leads to the expansion of developer hegemony and polarization between the rich and the poor. Our young people have lots of discontent and grievances about the present establishment, and they have to take to the streets because they cannot see any way out or opportunities for upward mobility. In view of this, the problems faced by our youths are indeed related to the entire establishment. We should not consider their problems in a 2682 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
"piecemeal" manner by categorizing them into problems concerning studies, further studies, education, employment or other issues. If we want to identify a really effective solution to resolve young people's problems, we must not evade the inequities in the present establishment.
Deputy President, by and large, I agree to the improvement measures proposed by Mr CHAN Hak-kan in different fields. Many of them are indeed included in the platform of the Democratic Party. Today, I would like to focus on talking about point (d) in my amendment, a newly-added proposal on education and studies. Deputy President, from the current admission figures of graduate schools and universities, one will find that, in recent years, the tertiary institutions in Hong Kong have endeavoured to follow the trend of internationalization; and the reason behind is that they want to take in non-local students from overseas as well as their experiences and cultures in foreign countries. When overseas students come to Hong Kong, they will create an international environment in local universities, thereby giving stronger cultural shock to local students and providing them with more opportunities for exchanging views, so as to broaden their international horizons.
It stands to reason that we should support this move. Nonetheless, the Government should review whether such internationalization has caused "Mainlandization" in respect of admission of students to undergraduate and graduate programmes in the eight existing universities? When the number of non-local students is on the rise, most of them are from the Mainland China. Mainland students now constitute about 25% of our undergraduates, and their percentage in graduate schools is even more astonishing.
According to the statistics of the University Grants Committee (UGC) ― let us not talk about the self-financing graduate programmes ― in the 2002 academic year, there were a total of 4 445 students enrolled in UGC-funded graduate programmes, including MPhil and PhD programmes. By "UGC-funded", it means that these programmes are paid by the money of Hong Kong's taxpayers. Ten years later, in the 2012 academic year, this number has increased to 6 572 when we take account of all graduate students in the eight universities. Among these 6 572 graduate students who receive public funding, 4 797 are non-local students. It is evident that the so-called "internationalization" has actually become "Mainlandization", eating away the resources for local students to enrol in graduate programmes. For the UGC-funded graduate programmes in the 2002 academic year, only 37% of the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2683 students were non-local students. Yet, in 2012 academic year, this percentage has risen to 73%. Have we got the priority wrong? Are we changing from internationalization to complete "Mainlandization", allowing the number of local graduate students to shrink drastically right before our very eyes? Within 10 years, the percentage of non-local students has risen from some 30% to more than 70% at present. This increase is really shocking, and I do want to know how the education authorities are going to deal with this problem.
Of course, we clearly understand that, as teachers, we do not care where our students come from. As long as they are clever, well-behaved and hardworking, they are the good students whom we would like to teach. However, when I consider this issue from a broader view, I cannot help asking: For whom will talents trained by our local universities and graduate schools serve? When 73% of our students come from the Mainland China, we may say that we are training talents for the future of our country. That can be a point. But is this the objective of our education policy? We must clarify this point. There can always be positive impacts for us to have such a high proportion of Mainland students. For example, when more Mainland elites enrol in graduate schools in Hong Kong, they can bring in healthy competition to local students; and this is a desirable impact.
However, the problem is that when the priority in student admission is getting wrong, with most of the students coming from the Mainland China, we must then ask a question: Should we continue to finance these graduate programmes with public money? Or, from another perspective, we may ask why do our graduate schools have such a low percentage of Hong Kong students? Is it really because we do not have such demand? Or is it because local students are facing extremely fierce competition when applying for graduate programmes? Is it now a requisite for local university graduates to face national or worldwide competition before they can successfully secure a place in graduate programmes?
Deputy President, I keenly hope that the Government can review this problem. If the number of local graduate students continues to shrink, in the long run, it will affect the nurturing of local academic talents. It will also indirectly affect the future development of local academic research.
Deputy President, I so submit and propose my amendment.
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MR JEFFREY LAM (in Cantonese): Deputy President, nowadays the "post-80s" and "post-90s" young people enjoy a richer material life than the older generations, but the competition faced by them when they step into society after graduation also exerts greater pressures on them. The Government and society should do more to care for them and help them establish their career at the starting line.
Deputy President, in my amendment I have deleted some specific figures from the original motion. Since the Government has collected various views from sources representing different stances, I believe that it would be better to wait for the Government to collate the data collected and release the figures before we start the discussion. Take the Continuing Education Fund as an example, the Government has mentioned that the Fund is not a permanent fund and it is expected to stop reimbursing subsidies by 2017. Should the amount of subsidy be increased to $20,000 or $30,000? I think the Government should now sum up its experience, review the public's reaction and the results attained from continuing education, so as to formulate a policy on continuing education. It would be better to study what is the most appropriate amount of subsidy by that time.
Besides, the Government should conduct a comprehensive review of the various student finance schemes. The objectives of financing students should be: first, to help those students who cannot afford the tuition fees; second, to provide loans to students from poor families to meet their daily expenses, so that they can concentrate on their studies. Many students have various opinions about the student finance schemes. The authorities should review and improve those schemes but great care has to be taken in amending the detailed arrangements of the schemes. If the costs for getting a loan are too low, students would be encouraged to borrow money. "Spending the money before earning it" is not a good finance management habit. At present, many university students think that the finance schemes are too generous and it would be stupid of them not to borrow money because the interest rate is so low that they can still get benefits even when the inflation factor is taken into consideration. Should the Government encourage students to borrow money? If students borrow more and more money, they will bear a loan of $100,000 or $200,000 upon graduation, which has to be repaid immediately even before they can find a job, and $100,000 or $200,000 is not a small amount. Besides, the loans are funded by public money and charging low interest rates cannot cover the inflation rate, not to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2685 mention that some loans will become bad debts. Now the default loans owed by students to the Government have amounted to over $200 million. Therefore we should also handle student loans very carefully.
Deputy President, housing is another problem that troubles young people greatly, especially young people of today pursue for independence and hope to have their own living space, which in turn increases the housing demand. The fundamental problem is the scarcity of land in Hong Kong. With housing in short supply, the price is naturally high. Without a property of their own, their planning of life may be affected, they may put off getting married and how then can you ask them to have three children?
The Government has put forward a number of housing proposals but I think it is most important to increase land supply. Right from the start, the Government should, bearing the needs of young people in mind, think of ways to provide them with a good environment, so that they can have the opportunity to get a gratifying job. In this way, young people can buy their first homes as soon as possible through their own efforts. The Home Starter Loan Scheme also encourages young people to borrow money to buy a home. In 1997, many people borrowed from the Government to pay the down payment of their home. But as they purchased the properties at very high prices, many had been burdened by negative equity properties for years. It ended up with the Government footing the bill of the $0.49 billion bad debts. This is another example of doing disservice out of good intention.
Deputy President, over the past few years, I have proposed that the Government should set up "young entrepreneur parks" to provide more support for young people who want to start up a business. Young people of Hong Kong are very creative and they long for a bigger platform for them to give full play to their strengths. However, they lack social experience and knowledge in many areas, they do not know how to get started or where to look for help. Deputy President, nowadays, young people are very creative and they wish to build their career on their creativity. The gratification gained from the success of running their own business cannot be compared with what one can get by being a wage earner. Besides, if more people succeed in launching a business, more jobs will be created for other people in Hong Kong.
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To help young people start up a business, especially turning a creative industry into a business, other than funds, we also need to provide them with a viable environment and "young entrepreneur parks" is such a platform. There are many "young entrepreneur parks" abroad and in the Mainland. An entrepreneur park not only provides them with a place to work but also other software and hardware facilities, such as the offices set up by government departments and consultant firms to provide consultation and support, as well as one-stop service.
It is not easy to start up a business and everything, big or small, has to be tended to personally while the results cannot be shortly seen. "Young entrepreneur parks" can allow a group of aspiring young people to gather together, support one another and share their experience. An ideal entrepreneur park not only allows young people to explore, but there are also caring friends from the commercial and industrial sectors as well as from the professional service sector who are willing to be the mentors of these young people and share with them their experience in doing business. Based on their knowledge and experience, they would advise these young people what they need to do and help them realize their plans, so that there will be fewer problems when they put their plans into practice. We can advise them on legal and accounting matters as well as patent application regarding their research and development in science and technology. Moreover, we can also introduce these young people to more people and give them the chance to present their ideas to various venture capital investment funds. The aim of the "young entrepreneur parks" is to nurture young people from totally inexperienced to establishing their own company so that when they succeed, they can in turn help other young fresh graduates who aspire to start up their own business.
In the process of starting up a business, young people will learn a lot, and whether they succeed or not, these are all very precious experience. Hong Kong has lagged far behind other places in the provision of business start-up support. No matter it is to fully utilize the Energizing Kowloon East project or locating sites in other districts, it is most important for the Government to set up "young entrepreneur parks" as soon as possible and provide software and hardware support. Friends from the commercial and industrial sectors will certainly give their full support and do their best in helping young people become independent, establish their own career, as well as bear social responsibility as soon as possible and contribute back to society.
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I delete the figures concerned in my amendment not because I do not care about the plight of young people. Therefore, Dr Kenneth CHAN was wrong to accuse us for not caring about the relevant problems. He just read part of the contents, but that does not concern us. What matters most is that what we do and what we suggest can truly help young people. We hope that young people can have a comprehensive exposure instead of interpreting everything out of context and listening to only part of the facts.
After young people have gained experience and received guidance from experienced and learned people, I believe that they will have more success in finding a job or starting up their own business. Although Hong Kong is an economic hub and economic metropolitan, without our young people to carry on running our commercial and industrial industries, the economy will suffer and become sluggish and there will not be jobs in the future, which will affect the next generation and their next generation. Therefore, we should actively support young people, allow them to make good use of their creativity and hope that Hong Kong's economy can benefit from their creativity and continue to grow.
Thank you.
MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the Government has recently consulted the public on next year's budget. In the announcements on public interest, a young man in his early twenties says, "The competition is so keen. How can we have more job opportunities?" This is exactly where the problem lies. These words may reflect the Government's mind and today's motion also brings up the same question.
It is nothing new about keen competitions resulting from globalization. In the face of competitions and difficulties in finding jobs, what we should do is to enhance our competitiveness and beat our opponents with our own power. If young people find it hard to find a job, I can tell them that we have difficulties in finding workers as well.
It is true that young people are now faced with many challenges such as bleak prospects for further studies, reduction of low skill jobs resulting from change of work types, sky-high property prices, and social and economic developments tilting towards finance and real estates, which are all obstacles to 2688 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 their upward mobility in society. Honestly, these situations are all detrimental to the overall long-term development of Hong Kong, but young people are not the only group affected, the middle-aged who have to support the whole family and the elderly who have no retirement protection are also affected as well. As people of different age groups have to face different challenges and their capabilities vary, the way to help them should also be different. The greatest advantage of young people is their youth and time. For the middle-aged, we have to lighten their burdens; and for the elderly, what they need is direct benefits.
Then, what specific support should be provided to young people? It is most important to enhance their competitiveness and to give them the power "to fight". Simply put, we should help young people help themselves. Therefore, I fully support the proposals relating to supporting the education of students, especially those concerning the increase of university places, and I support most of the proposals on employment in Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion.
Two weeks ago, when I spoke on the motion about alleviating poverty, I especially expressed my concern about the unemployment and poverty among young people. Therefore, I am very much concerned about the subject of today's discussion but my perspective may be different from those of some colleagues.
I propose the amendment today in the hope of challenging or diverting Members' mindset, so that we do not focus on the perspective of merely "handing out candies". I strongly support the measures to widen their pathways of further studies, increase their learning opportunities, allow young people to equip themselves, enrich their experience in training, and so on. The biggest problems hindering Hong Kong's development are that the education levels of our workers are lower than that of other developed countries, and the number of university and post-secondary places are far from adequate. However, if we deliberately create some tailor-made jobs in the labour market for young people or use public money to subsidize employers to create jobs for young people, the unemployment problem of young people can only be temporarily alleviated. We can artificially suppress the unemployment rate of young people in this way but this only treats the symptoms but not the root cause. In the end, the skills of low-skilled workers remain low and young people cannot upgrade themselves. The public money is thus wasted.
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As regards the proposal to encourage young people to buy properties, or subsidize and give them loans to start up a business, I would describe them as "sugar-coated poison". Let me talk about home acquisition first. Deputy President, in my amendment I have deleted many of the related proposals and I will give an explanation here.
First, in respect of increasing the supply of public rental housing (PRH) flats and reviewing the existing eligibility criteria for applying for PRH, I consider that the increase in the supply of PRH flats should be considered in the context of the overall public housing policy, and should not be discussed under the narrow perspective of "helping young people". To increase the supply of PRH flats ― which I certainly support ― should not only benefit young people as they are by no means the underprivileged. Public housing is for the needy in society, and the distribution of this resource should depend on who has greater needs rather than favouring a certain age group. Perhaps the unemployed middle-aged people, low-income households or the elderly have a greater need, or it is also possible that a certain young person has greater need than another elderly person. Hence, it is only reasonable and fair that all applications are assessed by the same mechanism and all applicants should be on the same waiting list. In what way is the current system especially unfair or unreasonable to young people? Therefore, this is not a question of fairness and reasonableness.
To think more deeply, young people are the driving force of social development. Compared with people of other age groups, they have greater potentials to develop than the middle-aged and the elderly. We also hope that young people can strive to upgrade themselves rather than compete for public resources. What is the prospect of Hong Kong if young people all have the mindset of joining the queue for PRH flats?
Second, concerning the construction of at least 5 000 Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats each year and re-launching the Sandwich Class Housing Scheme, these are also related to the housing policy. We of course wish to promote the upward movement in society so that PRH residents have the chance to improve their living environment by buying HOS flats or private flats and vacate their flats for those in greater need. But by the same token, whether a person can move out of the PRH flat depends on his competitiveness. One should not think that by creating a market for the sandwich class, the problem can then be resolved. The more realistic problem is that at present the prices of 2690 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 private housing are sky-high and as the prices of HOS flats are pegged to that of private housing, it is highly unlikely that young people or even the middle-aged can afford. Therefore, with respect to the number of HOS flats to be built, the number of private residential flats launched onto the market and even the ultimate solution, that is, increase in land supply, they all hinge on the overhaul of the overall housing policy by the Government.
Third, with respect to the proposal about re-launching the Home Starter Loan Scheme (HSLS) targeting at young people with relatively stable financial income, I consider this the deadliest "sugar-coated poison". The property prices are already unreasonably high. On the one hand, we demand the Government to curb property speculations and stabilize the property prices, but on the other hand we encourage young people who have slightly better means to borrow money to buy a flat, which is in effect stimulating the property market and fanning its heat.
If individual young persons can afford to buy a flat and are willing to bear the financial burden, it is their choice to take advantage of the low interest rates at present to borrow money for home acquisition. However, if the Government re-launches the HSLS, it will only create a vicious cycle. If the property prices continue to rise, those who buy flats by borrowing loans will become "flat slaves". If the property market cools down …… Do we still remember the "negative equity property" problem 10 years ago? People are already toiling to pay the mortgage and if the Government entices young people to buy flats by lending them money, which is in effect helping the developers and speculators to jack up the property market, I think it is irresponsible to do so.
Concerning starting up a business, we all understand that you cannot hastily start up a business. Neither will it help young people by encouraging them to start up a business when they do not want to be wage earners or cannot find a job. Our colleagues in this Council from the business sector all understand that competition in the business world is as keen as that in the employment market. Should the Government blindly encourage young people who think about starting up a business ― thinking only ― to hastily start up a business and even lend money to them to become a so-called business owner? A couple of days ago, I shared my experience with students of two universities. They also asked me about the issue of starting up a business. I prudently asked them over and over again why they wanted to start up a business, whether they have considered their suitability to run a business, or if they thought starting up a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2691 business was more comfortable than being an employee when they were not under the cost pressure. Young people have to be very clear about these questions.
In a free market, whether a business start-up plan can attract investors is the screening process of a business plan. If a business start-up plan cannot find capital and investors, should the Government use public money to finance these private projects with doubtful market value? An entrepreneur should be able to withstand the success or failure of a business plan; otherwise, this is just another "sugar-coated poison" that the Government hands to young people.
Therefore, I consider that the most important issue is to nurture young people's creativity. One needs to have creativity first before they have the chance to open new avenues in the commercial world and global market. It is only meaningful when the Government provides support through measures to support creative industries and the knowledge-based economy. Hong Kong's education system not only fails to nurture creativity but sometimes does the opposite.
Deputy President, as an adage goes, "Rather bully a white-bearded old folk than bully an impoverished young bloke". To interpret this from another angle, it means young people have the youth and time which allow them to give full play to their limitless potentials. We only need to provide them with the means to enhance their competitiveness and when they learn to grasp the opportunity to strive forward, impoverished youths today can be men of some fortune tomorrow. However, if we only hand out "candies and meals" to young people, I am afraid that the impoverished youth today will go on to be an impoverished man, an impoverished old man in the future.
Therefore, although I know that my amendment will unlikely be passed in this Council, perhaps some colleagues silently support it in their heart, my aim to propose the amendment is to encourage young people to make good use of their potentials and enhance their competitiveness. Instead of striking them down, we should make young people of Hong Kong (The buzzer sounded) ……
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Your speaking time is up. Please stop.
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MR CHARLES PETER MOK (in Cantonese): …… have greater "fighting power". Thank you, Deputy President.
MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, other than being the future pillars of society, young people are also the weathercock of society today. When young people have a good living, society will be prosperous and progressive; on the contrary, when young people are restless, society will not be peaceful. The slogan for this year's Olympics in London was "Inspire a generation" and I think that is very important. Who need to be inspired in Hong Kong today? It is our young generation.
I am the representative of the education sector and hence I will concentrate my amendment and my speech on the uneasiness and restlessness of young people as regards the education system. First of all, I want to discuss the new senior secondary (NSS) academic structure, which is the greatest concern of young people. The major problem is that the structure affects all young people with different characters, aptitudes and strengths. Therefore, we need to truly put in place a diversified NSS academic structure.
In the first Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education (HKDSE) Examination, 7 000 students "abandoned the ship" in the midway, that is, they did not register for the examination and gave up their studies halfway, and the number of students who dropped one or more subjects were too many to be counted. The reasons for this are manifold. Some could not stand the chaotic education system in Hong Kong and went abroad to continue their studies, and most of the students considered the curriculum of HKDSE too wide and the examination too difficult. To some non-academic students, going to school was hard enough, let alone sitting for this taxing HKDSE, and so they decided to "abandon the ship" and did not sit for the examination.
Our students have different talents and abilities but non-academic students cannot find their position in the NSS academic structure. The former Hong Kong Certificate of Education Examination only made the first screening after two years of senior secondary school, but under the current NSS academic structure, students have to finish three years of senior secondary school before sitting for the difficult university entrance examination which some students can hardly handle. Therefore, the authorities have to consider how to incorporate LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2693 more vocational and practical subjects in the curriculum of the NSS academic structure, or even adopt a drastic and positive new approach, that is, to establish a vocational senior secondary school as another pathway under the new academic structure. This concerns the NSS academic structure.
Second, the authorities must address the problem about student finance schemes which some Members have also raised just now. Some students or young people are not well-off and as there are different types of people in society, their situations vary greatly. For those impoverished students, they are deeply in debt even before graduation. For those students who cannot afford the tuition fee or living expenses but do not pass the means test to be eligible for student loans, they have no way out. When the university system changes from the current three years to four years, their financial burden will be even heavier.
Under the existing student finance system, students have to pay interest for their loans. Unlike the means-tested loan schemes, interests for the Non-means Tested Loan Scheme are calculated from the day the loan is drawn. Why is there such a difference? Why should students pay interest as soon as their loans are drawn? Why should the risk rate be included? All these have added to the burden of students. In fact, even if all these requirements are abolished, the Government can still afford it. As such, should the authorities conduct a thorough review in order to narrow the gap between students of different financial backgrounds?
Third, the university hostel places. When the Government formulated the policy on university hostel places over a decade ago, it aimed at providing students with the opportunity to have an all-rounded personal development and therefore it was hoped that all university students would be given the experience of living in a hostel. However, university hostel places are severely in short supply and there are only 28 000 places funded by the University Grants Committee and this number has already included the 6 000 places currently under construction, which can hardly meet the needs under the existing policy. According to the existing policy, "all undergraduate students should be given the opportunity to stay in student hostels for at least one year of their courses" and "all research postgraduate students, non-local students as well as undergraduate students whose daily travelling time exceeds four hours should be provided with student hostel places". The present supply of university hostel places fails to meet the Government's policy intent.
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Since 2005, the SAR Government has relaxed the restriction on immigration and more non-local students have been allowed to enrol in tertiary programmes in Hong Kong. With a shortage of over 8 000 university hostel places, how can Hong Kong develop into an education hub? How can local university students have a more rounded personal development? The authorities need to review the aforesaid problem of shortage of university hostel places.
Several Members have already talked about the places for bachelor's degree programmes and that is the fourth problem of great importance. After putting forward the "high, big and empty" slogan of developing Hong Kong into an education hub and developing the education services, the authorities have no concrete solution to meet the local students' demand for further studies. For example, this year, 6 000 students who sat for the last Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination and 12 000 who sat for the HKDSE Examination passed in the university entrance examination, but they were not admitted to universities and could only enrol in associate degree programmes. In recent years, associate degree programmes have developed rapidly but the number of bachelor degree places have remained at 14 500, which was only increased to over 150 000 very recently, meaning that only 20% of the appropriate age cohort could attend universities. In such a developed society as Hong Kong, this is a shameful ratio.
It is no doubt that the university enrolment rate in Hong Kong is low. According to the comparison results released yesterday, the quality of the education system of Hong Kong is high, ranking the third in the world. However, as Dr Kenneth CHAN has just said, the ratio of university students among the working population is rather low, which has lowered our overall ranking. In this regard, the ratios of Finland and Korea are 37% and 35% respectively while that of Hong Kong is only 26%. It is noted that over a rather long period of time in the past, the university enrolment rates in Hong Kong and Korea were similar. But in the last 10-odd years, Korea had experienced great changes, and its rate of university students among the working population has far exceeded that of Hong Kong for almost 10%, and this gap will likely continue to widen in the future. This is a crisis affecting Hong Kong's economic development, and is also a great misfortune to the younger generation of Hong Kong.
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Why is there a small chance for Hong Kong students to enrol in universities? The so-called "Hong Kong students who have enrolled in universities" already include those who are studying abroad. In other words, the rate of university students among the entire population of Hong Kong is low. It seems that at present the Administration only concentrates on increasing the places of top-up degree programmes. Students have to finish a one-year or two-year sub-degree programme before they can articulate to top-up degree programme. This seems to be the trend for the next few years. Why is it so? Why must university students in Hong Kong finish a one-year or two-year sub-degree programme before articulating to top-up degree programme? Why is tertiary education in Hong Kong so fragmented? I think that the authorities should review this situation and put an end to this policy.
Fifth, it is problem with the master degree programme. Dr Helena WONG has just pointed out an alarming figure, that is, among students who are studying master degrees in Hong Kong, 73% are from the Mainland. This is a very alarming figure. The Hong Kong Professional Teachers' Union has time and again received complaints from local university students about their slim chance of and great difficulties in enrolling in master degree programme in local universities. Why would there be such a situation? Should the authorities conduct a review on this situation?
Lastly, I want to talk about the expenditure on education. Although the education system in Hong Kong has very high quality, the current expenditure on education only accounts for about 4% of our GDP, which lags behind those of other developed countries, which account for about 5.5% to 8.5%. The Administration should make use of our ample fiscal reserve to improve this situation.
Deputy President, in the face of the above problems faced by young people, we should lend them a helping hand.
With these remarks, I would like to ask Honourable Members to support my amendment.
SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): Deputy President, as talents are the most precious resources in Hong Kong, the SAR Government has all 2696 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 along attached great importance to upgrading education in terms of quantity and quality, and ensured that no students at school-age will be deprived of the opportunity to study through lack of means.
Since the beginning of the 21st century, Hong Kong has embarked on a series of reform on curriculum and academic structure after conducting an extensive and thorough consultation, and the new academic structure has been implemented in phrases. At present, all students can enjoy free education for 12 years, including six years of primary education and six years of secondary education, whereas the study period of university education has been extended from three years to four years. The new academic structure has provided a broad and balanced curriculum for students to develop abilities for lifelong learning and promote whole-person development, as well as offered a great opportunity for them to materialize their vision.
The new academic structure has also provided students with diversified study pathways with multiple entry and exit points. Apart from studying degree courses, students may also consider enrolling in associate degree courses. Sub-degree is a valuable standalone exit qualification, and holders of such a qualification may pursue career in junior management and as assistants in the professions concerned. Outstanding sub-degree holders may also enrol in publicly-funded senior year undergraduate places or self-financing top-up degree programmes. Furthermore, students can also choose other study pathways according to their interests and abilities, for example, enrolling in the Yi Jin Diploma Programme, skill training programmes, the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme, or even pursuing further studies overseas or in the Mainland. Meanwhile, the Government had completed a review of the Financial Assistance Schemes for Post-secondary Students in mid-2012, and implemented a series of improvement measures to provide support for tertiary students with financial needs.
The new academic structure does not only provide diversified and abundant opportunities for further studies, but also strengthen the co-operation among educational, social and economic development. We are convinced that the new academic structure can provide more opportunities for the younger generation by expanding their knowledge and enabling them to plan for their future studies or career, with a view to achieving their goals in life. As such, young people can learn something and realize their full potential in different respects.
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Deputy President, I thank Members for their concern about young people's education and further studies, and for their valuable opinions. After listening to other Members' views, I will make a more detailed response. Thank you, Deputy President.
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I would like to thank Mr CHAN Hak-kan for moving today's motion and the other eight Members for proposing their amendments.
With the advent of globalization and Hong Kong's continuous transformation to a knowledge-based economy, our young people are actually facing a multitude of challenges. Therefore, the Government and the public have all along been gravely concerned about how we should help them transit smoothly from school to work, develop their job skills and create their career paths.
The policy objective of the Government is to provide comprehensive training opportunities to young people with different aspirations and needs by taking a multi-pronged approach. Apart from the training programmes provided by various education and training institutes, the Labour Department (LD), the Employees Retraining Board (ERB) and the Vocational Training Council (VTC) have implemented the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme (YPTP&YWETS), a number of retraining programmes (including the well-known Youth Training Programme), and the Apprenticeship and Traineeship Schemes respectively. Young people may well equip themselves by selecting suitable programmes and on-the-job training based on their own interests, abilities and career aspirations.
The YPTP&YWETS, which is implemented by the LD, provides one-stop comprehensive pre-employment and on-the-job training, as well as other employment support services, to young school leavers aged 15 to 24 with educational attainment at sub-degree or below level. Diversified training is provided under this Scheme to cater the needs of young people with different educational backgrounds and abilities. In order to encourage employers to employ young people, the LD will provide training subsidies to employers who give on-the-job training to trainees under the YPTP&YWETS. Moreover, the LD has set up two youth employment resource centres named as "Youth 2698 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Employment Start" (Y.E.S.) to provide one-stop personal career guidance and self-employment support service to youths aged between 15 and 29.
On the other hand, the ERB also provides training and retraining programmes to Hong Kong residents aged 15 or above and with education attainment of sub-degree or below. People with different backgrounds, including young people, can benefit from these programmes. The ERB further provides the Youth Training Programme mentioned above to non-engaged youth, with an aim to rekindling their desire to learn and further study, as well as helping them to cultivate a positive outlook of life and self-confidence.
Young people who are interested in individual industries may also consider taking pre-employment training courses or receiving on-the-job training provided by the VTC. Over the years, the VTC has implemented the Apprenticeship Scheme, which covers about 130 industrial and technical industries. In recent years, the VTC has also introduced the more flexible Modern Apprenticeship Scheme to provide short pre-employment vocational training programmes to youths aged between 15 and 24 so that they can learn some elementary skills to pursue their career aspirations. In addition, at the end of last year, the VTC launched a pilot traineeship scheme for service industries, with the beauty care and hairdressing industries as the starting point.
With the implementation of and funding for the above training and employment schemes to cater different needs of young people, the Government's commitment to promote youth employment is clearly shown. We will keep abreast of the latest development of the labour market and enhance various employment and training services in a timely manner to improve the competitiveness of young people.
Regarding the promotion of self-employment among young people, the Government strives to create a favourable business environment for start-ups. Meanwhile, we have also provided various supports to young entrepreneurs.
I know that we all care about the employment of young people. I am eager to listen to Members' valuable opinions and I will give a more detailed response later.
Deputy President, I so submit.
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SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I thank Mr CHAN Hak-kan for moving this motion today concerning young people's aspirations in respect of education, employment and housing, and he has also put forward a number of views. The views expressed in the original motion and the relevant amendments not only cover the portfolio of the Transport and Housing Bureau, but also that of many other Policy Bureaux. The Secretary for Education and Secretary for Labour and Welfare have spoken on issues under their purview, and regarding housing, I am going to give an overall account of the Government's current policy on housing. After listening to Members' views, I will make a consolidated response again.
As Mr CHAN Hak-kan has said, young people are the future pillars of society. It is natural that the younger generation has high hopes for the future and expects to live and work in peace and contentment.
However, even though young people have their unique advantages, they also have to face many challenges in reality. Young people are generally at the starting stage of their career with limited financial means. Even if they wish to have their own living space, not everyone can have their wish come true owing to various restrictions. To those young people who wish to raise a family or those who are better off, to acquire a home as soon as possible is one of their goals in life. To find a home that meets their needs and is affordable to them is a challenge faced by all young people of this generation. Besides, some young people may need to take care of elderly members in their family and they have different aspirations for housing.
If we look at the number of applications for Public Rental Housing (PRH), we can understand young people's demand for PRH. As at June 2012, among the applicants on the Waiting List for PRH, 93 500 are non-elderly one-person applicants under the Quota and Points System, and among such applicants, 53% are under the age of 30. According to the 2012 Survey on Waiting List Applicants for PRH, among the non-elderly one-person applicants under the age 30, 43% were students when they registered. As regards their level of education, 34% of such applicants have obtained post-secondary or above education.
We understand that young people have ardent and unique aspirations for housing. However, we cannot ignore that members of other social strata have 2700 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 the same strong aspirations for housing. Take the problem of the ageing population as an example, according to the findings of the Population Census, the median age has risen from 36.7 in 2001 to 41.7 in 2011. With respect to age structure, the ratio of the 25 to 44 age group has lowered from about 36.8% in 2001 to 31.4% in 2011, while the ratio of the 45 to 64 age group has risen from 21.8% to 31.3% for the same period. We can foresee that the number of older singletons will continue to grow but their chance of improving their living environment through upward social mobility is far lower than that of the younger generation. In view of limited social and public resources, while recognizing the housing needs of young people, we have to take care of the needs of other members of society to ensure that resources are allocated to the most needy according to the degree of importance and priority through fair and reasonable means.
In the face of different housing needs of different people, our policy objective is to tackle this problem on several fronts: (a) to ensure the basic housing needs of the lower-income underprivileged groups are properly taken care of; (b) to allow people to choose their accommodation according to their means and need, and assist the middle-income families who wish to acquire homes to purchase their own homes; and (c) to establish a housing ladder in the course, taking PRH as the foundation, topped by a specific number of subsidized housing for home purchase, and at the same time to stabilize the private residential property market and promote social mobility, with a view to ensuring the steady development of the private residential property market.
In respect of the supply of PRH, under the latest Public Housing Construction Programme of the Hong Kong Housing Authority (HA), a total of 75 000 new PRH units will be provided from the year 2012-2013 to the year 2016-2017, that is, an average of about 15 000 units will be provided each year. This is not a fixed target. Whenever we find suitable land, we will adjust the housing production in order to increase the supply. For example, the Chief Executive announced on 30 August 2012 a number of short to medium term public housing supply measures, including to convert the HA's Chai Wan Factory Estate for PRH use which will provide about 180 PRH flats (including one to two-person flats). As regards the medium term supply, we will rezone an "open space" site in Cheung Sha Wan for PRH development, which will advance the provision of about 2 300 PRH flats by two years in 2019.
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Other than the provision of new PRH units, each year there are also about 7 000 "clean" recovered units on average available for distribution. In brief, there will be on average a total of about 22 000 units available for distribution each year.
In respect of subsidized housing, we have announced the plan to provide a total of about 17 000 new Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats in four years starting from the year 2016-2017 and they will be put onto the market earlier for pre-sale. It is expected that the first batch of new HOS flats completed in the year 2016-2017 will be put out for pre-sale in the year 2014-2015. The HA is now liaising closely with the relevant government departments and Policy Bureaux and proactively seeking suitable lands for the development of HOS housing in various districts and in the studies on the sites for medium-to-long-term housing use.
In response to the urgent need for home acquisition, we will launch the remaining 832 HOS flats in the market in early 2013. Besides, we will also allow 5 000 eligible white form applicants to purchase HOS flats without premium paid in the secondary market for HOS flats per year in the run-up to the completion of the first batch of new HOS to help satisfy the needs for home acquisition of those who are eligible, including young people.
Moreover, the Government has also decided to sell the 1 000-odd units under the My Home Purchase Plan Tsing Luk Street project in Tsing Yi which were originally planned for rental purpose. It will also review the entire My Home Purchase Plan. The Tsing Luk Street project in Tsing Yi will be made available for application by the end of December (next month) this year and the Hong Kong Housing Society will announce the details later.
Concerning the land supply for private housing, the Government has since 2010 fine-tuned the arrangement for the sale of government sites by initiating sale through public auction or tender while retaining the Application List system, the aim is to increase the supply of land to the market. It is now an established practice that quarterly land sale programme is announced in advance. The Government hopes to maintain a stable supply of land and its goal is to maintain a land supply from various sources which can be made available to the market for the production of about 20 000 private housing units on average every year. At the same time, the Government has also adopted the policy of "Hong Kong 2702 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Property for Hong Kong People" to give priority to the housing needs of Hong Kong people. The Government is working out the implementation details and will incorporate the relevant land sale conditions into the two sites located at the Kai Tak Development Area. The sites will be sold in the first quarter of 2013 as a pilot under the policy.
The Government will pay very close attention to the supply of land sources and will spare no efforts in developing new land resources and in supplying land in order to satisfy the market's needs for housing sites.
Some Members have proposed to re-launch the Home Starter Loan Scheme. This topic was discussed in the Legislative Council's motion debate on housing policy three weeks ago. Let me reiterate here. According to the Government's past experience, of all the cases that have paid up the loans, over half of them have had default in repayment. Until now, there are still about 4 700 cases that have yet been paid up, over 30% of which have had default in repayment. Moreover, there are also over 1 200 bankruptcy cases. The Government has borne bad debts amounting to about $490 million resulting from this Scheme. Some Members consider that this Scheme can be re-launched when there is a sufficient supply of private flats and the borrowers have relatively stable income so as to reduce the impact on the property market. However, let me point out that when the economy turns down, even borrowers who have had relatively stable income may still come under tremendous pressure of repaying the loan, and when they are unable to pay, their debts would become bad debts. Experts, academics and the public opinion have cautioned about this kind of home purchase loans and even have expressed reservations about them. I have also heard similar views expressed here earlier. We think that any proposal to provide finances to home acquisition by means of loans or cash subsidy has to be scrutinized carefully to see what impact such proposal may have on the public as well as the market.
Deputy President, the Government is concerned about the housing needs of the people of every social stratum, including young people, and will provide various housing options for people with different financial means. I will make a consolidated response to the various views expressed by Members on the topic on housing after Members have spoken on this motion debate. Thank you, Deputy President.
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MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, the term "NEET" (not currently engaged in employment, education or training) is very popular among the youth of today. It refers to those young people who depend on their parents for everything, such as studies, job-hunting and accommodation. The term "NEET group" has actually described the helplessness and worries of our young people. As such, should the Government address this issue and show its concern by formulating some constructive policies and measures? Today, the Secretary for Education, the Secretary for Labour and Welfare and the Secretary for Transport and Housing are all present here. Yet, the Secretary for Commerce and Economic Development, whose policy purview is also relevant to this motion, is absent; we therefore cannot hear his response.
(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)
President, I am going to tell the aspirations of the youth of today in respect of employment and housing. Firstly, employment and career development. Nowadays, the number of unemployed youths is consistently high. In the third quarter of 2011, there were as many as 64 000 young people aged between 15 and 34 who were out of work. When it came to the third quarter of this year, this figure mounted to 67 100, without showing any sign of decline. I think if the measures just mentioned by Secretary Matthew CHEUNG really work, the unemployment figure will not go higher and higher.
On the other hand, we notice that the innovations and scientific achievements of our young people have no way out in Hong Kong. For example, years ago, students of the Polytechnic University successfully developed an electric vehicle, which proved that we could also have our own inventions and could no longer rely on imported electric vehicles. However, when they wanted to put this invention into production, they could not find anyone to take over this project. Last week, I read another piece of news reporting that four students of the Department of Mechanical Engineering of the University of Science and Technology had invented an air-conditioner which did not require refrigerant. It is a great invention because without using any refrigerant, this air-conditioner is environmental-friendly and energy-saving. It can help save the Earth. Unfortunately, this news report continued to say that so 2704 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 far no one was willing to take over this project and none of the manufacturers in Hong Kong were willing to invest in its production.
Therefore, it is not enough for our young people to have their own inventions. We must give them a chance to further develop and upgrade their inventions. The Chief Executive should not just encourage local capital and technology to go north. He must also consider every possible means to attract foreign capital to invest and set up factories in Hong Kong, so as to facilitate inventions created by our young people to be put into production. This is the only way to give our young inventors bright prospects and incentives.
Next, I would like to talk about housing problems. I am rather disappointed with the remarks just given by Secretary YAU Shing-mu as he was simply repeating the same old stuff, "frying leftover rice". I should lend him a spatula so that he can keep on frying. Just now, he was still saying things like "we have to take account of the entirety", "we have to consider the priority" and "we have to help people with the greatest need". He was simply repeating the same old tune of the previous Government, without telling us whether the Government had made any progress. In his speech, the most notable point was that 180 units in the Chai Wan Factory Estate would be converted into singleton hostels. However, it is something we fought for. He then went on saying that more than 2 000 public rental housing (PRH) units would be allocated two years ahead of schedule. But how can it solve the housing problems facing the youth? In the last decade, that is, between 2001 and 2011, the average median income of young people aged between 15 and 24 was around $8,000; the average median income of women aged between 24 and 34 was around $12,000, and about $12,500 to $13,000 for men. With these median income levels, how can young people catch up with the surge of property prices and rents nowadays? In the same period, the rent index had increased from 93 in 2001 to 137 in 2011, and the property price index had risen from 77.2 in 2001 to 187.3 in 2011, representing an increase of 142.6%. The income of young people can hardly catch up with the mounting rents and property prices.
As a result, as stated by the Secretary, many young people have applied for PRH units before graduation. However, the Government's well-off tenants policy, which drives young family members away from PRH, is indeed creating more PRH demand. As PRH tenants are required to make declaration biennially for the Government to vet their total household income, many families with LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2705 children just completed their studies and come out to work have to pay 1.5 times rent or market rent. In order to avoid paying 1.5 times rent or market rent, these tenants can only delete their young members from their tenancies. Consequently, in many PRH estates, only old people are left. The youth cannot live with elders in their families even if they so wish. They have no alternative but are forced to apply for PRH themselves.
Therefore, in view of the above problem, I think the Government should conduct a comprehensive and thorough review on our outdated housing policy and formulate (The buzzer sounded) …… a comprehensive and proper long term housing strategy to solve the problem ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Your speaking time is up.
MR WONG KWOK-HING (in Cantonese): …… thank you, President.
MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): President, regarding Mr CHAN Hak-kan, I would like to put forth some of my observations on the housing problems of young people.
Regarding the applications on the Waiting List for public rental housing (PRH), it is clear that the percentage of applicants aged between 18 and 29 is on the rise. This percentage rose from 19.1% in March 2011 to 24.1% in March 2012, which is quite astonishing. Among the numerous non-elderly one-person applicants, 23% of them were still in school when they submitted their applications. The wish to live alone, as mentioned by 68% of these young applicants, is the main reason for them to apply for PRH. However, the Secretary has just now repeated over and over again that owing to limited resources, the PRH demand from young people and elders should be distinguished and handled in different ways.
Yet, I want to point out that one of the main reasons for our society to have increasing discontent and grievances in recent years, as noticed by many, is that even young people have to wait for PRH. Under the current Points System, young applicants will have to wait for twelve years at least before they are 2706 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 allocated a PRH unit. If they are currently living in PRH, 30 points will be deducted from them, lengthening their waiting time. Therefore, many young people think that the chance for them to have their own place is very remote. Meanwhile, the community has failed to find a solution to solve the rising housing demand and public grievances.
Here, I would like to make a point. While the Government often says that young graduates should not apply for PRH, to me, whether people should apply for PRH and the actual demand for PRH are two different issues. In the past, we used to think that after years of education, young people would be able to be self-reliant and buy their own flats after graduation. However, the present economic situation of Hong Kong has made housing the greatest concern of most people as we want to have our own place instead of moving around. Applying for PRH is just a reflection of this aspiration. Moreover, even if young people are allocated PRH units after graduation, they will subsequently move out when they get married since their hard work should allow them to be self-reliant one day. What is more, I do not think any girl will be willing to live with her boyfriend in a tiny flat as small as 150 sq ft.
Therefore, in solving the problem, we should not discriminate young PRH applicants. Instead, the Government should take different measures to vet their assets and income periodically so as to keep abreast of their asset changes and quicken the turnover of PRH units.
In fact, this point is related to the next point that I am going to bring out. Many young people, after being allocated a PRH unit, will plan for their next step in home purchase. They will make use of their PRH tenancies to buy Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats with premium not yet paid. It is actually normal for them to do so, and meeting housing demand in this way is better than allowing thousands of HOS flats to be sold to eligible white form applicants without premium payments because the latter has pushed up the prices of HOS flats before the increase of their market supply. This outcome indeed runs counter to the expectation of the Secretary.
In my view, when we discuss the housing problem facing young people, we should not simply consider applying for PRH at a young age as a dispirited approach. It is unfair to put such label on young people because our future pillars of society also have a housing need. What we have to do is to first LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2707 develop some measures so that when these young people are making some progress in their career, we can give them an early notice, informing them that their income has exceeded the income limit of PRH applications. This will quicken the turnover of PRH and leave more PRH units for other applicants. Therefore, the Democratic Party considers it vital for the Government to conduct a comprehensive review on the Points System applied to non-elderly one-person applicants, in addition to the platitudes of increasing land supply and PRH units.
As a matter of fact, because of historical reasons, the Government has never considered a singleton as a family in its housing policy. However, this policy is no longer appropriate in today's society as it gives rise to discrimination against young single applicants. Therefore, I think the Government should review this issue. It should also rebuild the housing ladder, take the lead in increasing social mobility and abolish the Points System to give an effective solution to the housing problem of young people.
Of course, I also hope that the Secretary can consider my following suggestion. As it will take a long time to realize the idea of facilitating home purchase by increasing housing supply, will the Secretary consider allowing HOS flat owners to let their flats to eligible persons before paying premium? This initiative will significantly increase the supply of rental flats and improve the rental market, making it easier for young people who want to live alone to rent a flat.
I think we should not simplify the issue to difficulty in home purchase. In fact, many young people just want to have a choice in their lifestyle and live alone. As this is the wish of the majority of youth in the present-day society, I hope the Government can take my suggestion seriously.
As for home-starter loans, I think it can only be introduced when the supply of private flats is abundant. This is to avoid stimulating the property market (The buzzer sounded) …… and creating additional demand ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): The speaking time is up.
MR WU CHI-WAI (in Cantonese): Thank you, President.
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MR CHAN HAN-PAN (in Cantonese): Being the Chairman of the Federation of New Territories Youth, I have particularly strong sentiments for this topic today. As I often meet with young people, I can feel their anxieties and helplessness on studies, employment and home acquisition. We have done some researches on today's topic, and find that the root cause of these problems is the casual attitude of the SAR Government towards youth issues. While young people are the pillars of society, here in Hong Kong, a city acclaimed as "the Asian Metropolis", it is a pity that even some basic youth policies have not been handled seriously.
According to some previous surveys, most young people felt gloomy about their prospects. When they were asked to rate the Government's performance on handling unemployment, they gave it a "fail" grade. Therefore, I suggest that the authorities should expeditiously formulate a specific long-term youth development policy and set up a commission under the Chief Secretary for Administration to enforce this policy in areas like education, employment, home acquisition and business start-up, so as to build up young people's confidence in their future.
I remember that my family was very poor when I was small. I had to help with the household chores when I was in primary school. Yet, my father told me that we could have a better life in future if I studied hard and entered university. At that time, I believed in what he said; but now, the times have changed. Today, as our society has developed, young people generally have higher academic qualifications; but sadly, the ladder for upward mobility seems to have disappeared. Even university graduates may not be able to find a suitable job. Therefore, I recently told my father that his advice might no longer be applicable and he should not give the same advice to his grandchildren. For the period between August and October this year, the latest unemployment rate in Hong Kong was 3.5%, but the jobless rate of youngsters aged between 15 and 19 has increased to 15.3%. As for young university graduates aged between 20 and 24, the unemployment rate was 10.3%. In my view, a far-sighted and responsible government can afford no delay in tackling the problem of youth unemployment.
I notice that at present, the problem of job mismatch is serious among young people. For example, while the entrance levels of some service industries are low, it is greatly difficult to recruit workers and the turnover rates are high because many young people are unwilling to join the service industries. On the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2709 other hand, it may not be easy for young people with a higher educational attainment or professional knowledge to get a job which allows them to employ their expertise. They would rather be unemployed than take up a less desirable job; and when they apply for some jobs they considered desirable, they may not be employed as they lack experience.
For countries with a low youth unemployment rate, the governments have implemented a sound policy. For instance, in Germany, one of the reasons for a low youth unemployment rate is the implementation of an apprenticeship scheme. Young people can choose a trade they like and learn from a master so that by the time they have completed their apprenticeships, they have already accumulated some experience which allow them to take up the relevant job.
I had been an apprentice when I was young. Although the life was hard, I have benefited lifelong from the experience acquired. Another major reason for youth unemployment is that the Government has failed to provide sufficient employment support and has not introduced "career planning" in school. Many students do not have the faintest idea about what they want to do in future, and it is a problem with our youth policy.
Moreover, while the Government keeps saying that it wants to develop the six industries with competitive edge, has it provided any relevant training to our young people? Or has it given them any incentive or assistance in joining these industries? I cannot see any acts from the Government.
As for the home acquisition problem, young people may not afford to rent a flat, not to mention buy one. Yet, at a certain stage, they have to get married and raise their children. The youth in Hong Kong therefore often sigh that they: "Can't afford to buy a flat, can't afford to rent a flat. HOS flats have no supply. PRH flats not for me to apply!" This is a problem with both the housing policy and the youth policy. When will the Government be willing to take the right measure?
Perhaps, the Government may say, "Young men, please wait. We are building houses for you." Do you want them to wait for 10 or 20 years? Secretary, do you want to keep our youth waiting till their hair turns grey?
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As the Government has long been at its wit's end when tackling youth problems, it has misled the whole generation. Right now, our youth not only have to compete with Hong Kong people, they also have to compete with everyone in the global village. Therefore, the youth policy should no longer be scattered under the purview of different departments; we must consolidate them together.
I agree to the proposals made by Mr CHAN Hak-kan, especially the introduction of "career planning". This is because if students know about different industries or have some ideas about their career development, they can start to pursue their careers at school. Yet, which department should be responsible for this initiative? The Labour Department? The Education Bureau? Or the Home Affairs Bureau? The current policy is very confusing. Therefore, I suggest that the Government should set up a high-level youth commission.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
MR MARTIN LIAO (in Cantonese): President, young people are the future pillars of society. As the ageing problem is aggravating in Hong Kong, youngsters will soon become the key pillars of our society for they will be the major workforce in future to support Hong Kong's economy. Although Hong Kong is now in a state of full employment, with a consistently low unemployment rate of 3.4%, the problem of youth unemployment is worsening quickly. For youths aged between 15 and 24, their unemployment rate remains high at 11%.
This problem is particularly acute this year as it is the double cohort year. As announced by the Hong Kong Examinations and Assessment Authority, among some 70 000 graduates this year, only 15 000 could continue their studies at university. The remaining 50 000 graduates or so would have to find other ways out. While some of them are now studying associate degree or higher diploma programmes, most of them have to join the labour market. Ironically, though Hong Kong is an affluent city, our young people are the poorest group in society. The poor population aged between 15 and 24 had increased from 144 000 in 2000 to 176 000 in 2010, representing an increase of 20%. The average income of young people aged between 18 and 22 is only about half of the overall median income. The European debt crisis and the ailing economy of the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2711
United States are expected to further exacerbate the problems of youth unemployment and poverty.
As a matter of fact, the issue of non-engaged youth has already become a structural social problem, causing profound impacts on our economic development and social harmony. Its destructive effect must not be overlooked. In recent years, there are a number of grief-stricken tragedies. Some non-engaged youths or poor students killed themselves due to disappointments in life. There are also repeated incidents of university students committed suicide because of examination pressure or love problems. Recently, an elite graduated from the University of Cambridge took his own life as he could not withstand the pressure of work. It was indeed sad. Many young people have become the so-called "lost generation" after they have been out of school and out of work for a long time. They are not interested in self-enhancement; they indulged in playing videogames, and they are prone to violence, drugs, promiscuous relations, and so on. They may even commit suicide or become hidden youth, which have given rise to a lot of social problems. Are their problems caused by the deprivation of development opportunities as a result of the uneven distribution of resources in our society, or is it because there is something wrong with their mentality? I think both factors are relevant.
The main cause of employment difficulties faced by young people is that Hong Kong's economic and industrial structures are too monotonous. There are not many jobs that offer a good prospect, making it hard for young people to move upward. Nowadays, most of the jobs are in the finance, real estate and services industries, and young employees have long been underpaid. As most of the jobs with bright prospects are offered by large consortia or large enterprises, these enterprises no longer provide a promotion ladder for low-level employees or implement an apprenticeship scheme. For jobs with good prospects, applicants must at least have a degree; and with the introduction of the minimum wage, employers have higher demands on the working experience of applicants. However, the fact that Hong Kong is a knowledge-based economy has not led to a higher proportion of degree holders. It remains at the low level of 20%. As most young people do not have high academic qualifications or professional skills and are in lack of work experience, many of them have to take up low-paid jobs for a long time.
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In order to solve youth problems, I think it is better to start with education and employment. In respect of education, although the Government has introduced the Yi Jin Diploma and associate degree programmes as another alternatives for Form Six graduates and mature students to further their studies, these programmes are not well-recognized and hence cannot help students get a job. Meanwhile, only a handful of associate degree holders will be admitted to local universities as undergraduate places are not enough; yet, the authorities have not mapped out a clear articulation route for students to move up the education ladder. As such, I suggest that the Government should increase the number of undergraduate places. It should also develop an articulation framework for associate degree and diploma programmes by requiring tertiary institutions to admit a specific percentage of associate degree holders. This is to pave way for young people to advance their educational attainments. On the other hand, I think the Government should provide more incentives to encourage young people to pursue continuing studies. I suggest that the Government should improve the Continuing Education Fund Scheme by raising the cap on the subsidy amount from $10,000 to $15,000 and abolishing the one-year time limit for applying subsidies. Furthermore, the Government should offer additional subsidies to youngsters who exhaust their subsidies within one year by doubling their subsidy amounts to facilitate their pursuance of further studies.
On employment, Hong Kong has long been relying too much on the four major industries. It is time for the Government to consider promoting innovative industry to our youths and providing them with proper education and training as a support measure. The Government may co-operate with social service organizations and private enterprises to introduce relevant employment training programmes. In the meantime, it should provide large companies with the right incentives to encourage their employment of young people. The Government may also consider subsidizing social enterprises to set up seed funds to promote the development of innovative industry which can then offer young people with self-employment and employment opportunities.
President, I hope that the Government can provide a level playing field for our young people to let them develop their careers and move upward in a fairer and more equitable environment.
President, I so submit.
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MR FRANKIE YICK (in Cantonese): President, young people are the future pillars of society. In Hong Kong, a developed and knowledge-based society, young people are now facing more challenges and increasing competition. In our view, the Government should implement measures to give appropriate assistance and support to young people in respect of education, employment, business start-up and home acquisition.
Firstly, I would like to talk about education. The Government should adequately increase undergraduate places, enhance the applicability of diploma and certificate programmes, review afresh the feasibility of introducing prevocational programmes to cater for those youngsters who are not interested in the mainstream education but are talented in other fields. The Government should also encourage people at work to pursue continuing studies so as to support the economic development of a knowledge-based society. All these are necessary for sustaining the economic growth of Hong Kong.
Since this new academic year which started in September this year, publicly-funded First-Year First-Degree places have increased by 500 to 15 000. However, many students have to enrol in self-financing associate degree programmes because of their failure in meeting university entrance requirements, shortage of undergraduate places or other reasons. These self-financing programmes cost students tens of thousands of dollars a year. Yet, some tertiary institutions which provide associate degree programmes have admitted students indiscriminately to make money. Due to the lack of teaching resources and facilities, students are forced to have classes in shopping centres which are not suitable for teaching at all. The Government must strengthen its supervision on these institutions to ensure a good learning environment for students.
Besides, as we all know, the articulation places for associate degree graduates are insufficient, and this problem has been subject to criticism for years. While the former Chief Executive had undertaken to, starting from this academic year, gradually increase the number of articulation places from the existing 2 000 to 4 000 in three years, the increase is still far from enough because the actual number of students admitted to self-financing associate degree programmes provided by 30 local institutions in this academic year are estimated to amount to 29 000.
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When students have to spend two years and about $100,000 to study an associate degree programme, they may not necessarily be able to continue their studies at university. Meanwhile, as the qualification of associate degree is not well recognized by employers and education authorities in Hong Kong, as well as those in the Mainland and overseas, it is hard for associate degree holders to find a job. Therefore, the Government should conduct a comprehensive review on the current tertiary education policy and the allocation of resources to make sure that its manpower and education policies can cater for the needs of Hong Kong's industrial structure and avoid mismatches between qualifications and job positions in the labour market, thereby reducing the waste of valuable human resources.
As for the student financial assistance and loan schemes, the Liberal Party has all along been urging the Government to charge interest on Non-means Tested Loans after the graduation of loan applicants instead of from the moment that the Loans are drawn. It will greatly reduce the interest payments and alleviate the repayment pressure on students.
President, in face of the knowledge-based economy, young people have to pursue continuing studies to maintain their competitiveness. Therefore, the Liberal Party suggests a further injection of $1.5 billion to the Continuing Education Fund to raise the amount of subsidy receivable by each applicant from $10,000 to $20,000.
On youth unemployment, the relevant figures have not shown any improvement. The number of jobless youths aged between 15 and 20 amounted to 30 000 in the second quarter of this year. Employers should be encouraged to provide more job opportunities to young people who have no working experience. Tax concessions should also be offered to companies which provide "training leave" to their young employees, so that working young people can enhance their competitiveness by pursuing further studies and acquiring professional qualifications by examinations. Yet, we hold that the Government should motivate employers to provide "training leave" instead of by enactment of legislation.
Besides, the Liberal Party has long been asking the Government to strengthen its support to youth employment and business start-up. For example, it should enhance youth career counselling services and launch one-stop business LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2715 start-up training programmes, under which entrepreneurs will receive assistance in the preparation of business proposals, investor matching, and so on. Also, we suggest that the Government should set up a "start-up capital fund" to offer start-up loans to young people so that they can stand a better chance in realizing their dreams of starting up their own business. Let us look at Macao. Two weeks ago, when the Chief Executive of Macao delivered his policy address, he already proposed setting up a start-up fund to provide young entrepreneurs with loans capped at $300,000 with a repayment period as long as eight years. The Hong Kong Government should adopt a new mindset to introduce policies and measures which can effectively assist young people in giving their best and bringing their talents into full play.
President, housing and home acquisition problems are young people's major areas of concern. In our view, the provision of youth hostels, allowance on rent payment, size-restricted flats for home starters and the public housing units turnover and rent refund scheme we previously proposed can all help young people save money for home purchase. Under the scheme, young applicants will be allowed to rent public housing units for at most five years; after that, they must move out, but they can take back a large portion of the rents paid. In this way, it can help young people save money. However, in order to solve the problem at root, the authorities must expeditiously identify sites for housing construction, change the land use, or even raise the plot ratio as appropriate to increase flat supply.
My colleague from the Liberal Party will later give our Party's views on other amendments.
President, I so submit.
MR POON SIU-PING (in Cantonese): President, the motion of today covers the education, employment and housing problems faced by young people. As the topic is very wide, I have to focus my speech on the issues of education and on-the-job training.
Last Monday, when I told the Chief Executive my views on the 2013 Policy Address, I pointed out that the existing associate degree system should be reviewed and the number of publicly-funded undergraduate places should be 2716 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 increased. In recent years, due to the promotion of the so-called "education industry", there has been a trend of complete marketization among tertiary institutions in Hong Kong. While more than 16 000 students were admitted to publicly-funded bachelor's degree programmes in the year of 2011-2012, there were indeed 45 000 students meeting the minimum entrance requirements for local bachelor's degree programmes. It reflects that the number of existing publicly-funded undergraduate degree places has failed to meet the public demand. On the other hand, we notice that various universities can greatly increase their intakes. According to the Government's information provided to the Legislative Council, in 2013, local universities will offer 7 700 self-financing places, representing an increase of 70% when compared with the figure in 2012. As for self-financing top-up degree programmes targeting at associate degree holders, the number of intake places has increased from around 3 000 in 2010 to 6 500 this year.
While the Government is unwilling to put in additional resources to provide more publicly-funded undergraduate places, the number of self-financing undergraduate places has surged in a short time. It shows that education has already degraded into a business which requires students to pay expensive school fees, thereby distorting the original objective of education. In view of the abundance of government resources, the Government is obliged to bear the education expenses with public money. What is more, education expenditure is indeed an investment to our society's future. Therefore, I support that the Government should allocate more resources to provide additional publicly-funded undergraduate places.
On-the-job training is another issue related to the education of young people. At present, some young employees have to receive on-the-job training or pursue further studies to enhance their skills and abilities. However, such training does not only involve the provision of courses but more importantly, the provision of time for employees to attend these courses. In Hong Kong, as we neither have standard working hours nor paid study leave, the development of on-the-job training is not that healthy.
A clear example is the skills upgrading programme of the catering industry. There are a lot of young employees in the catering industry; yet, most of the skills upgrading classes are held deep at night. The Government argues that such arrangement can facilitate catering workers to attend classes after work. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2717
However, if the Government really wants to facilitate workers to pursue further studies, it should not ask them to upgrade their skills late at night, a time when they should go home and sleep after a whole day of tiresome work.
The motion of today has proposed the introduction of "training leave". In fact, the Federation of Hong Kong and Kowloon Labour Unions (HKFLU), to which I belong, has advocated the introduction of paid study leave since 1980s. We suggest that an employee should be entitled to at least four days of paid study leave annually after serving the same employer for one year. The HKFLU has made this suggestion to the Commissioner for Labour year after year in our submissions on labour legislation and policies. Therefore, I will give my full support to the proposal for introducing paid "training leave" in today's motion.
President, lastly, I must speak on the issue of standard working hours. Without standard working hours, employees will not have enough time for pursuing further studies after work. It is necessary to legislate for standard working hours to protect the health of employees, facilitate the pursuance of continuing education by young people and build a more equitable and reasonable society.
I so submit.
MR MA FUNG-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, all of us had once been young, and we have our own stories of how we faced our schoolwork, jobs, home acquisition and business start-up when we were young. In our old days, most of us had the experience of working hard to move upward. At that time, we could use our knowledge, experience and abilities to write Hong Kong stories enshrining the Lion Rock spirit.
President, the average age of Members of this term is 55 years old. There is a gap of several generations between us and the youth of today, so are our old stories in our youthful days. When I point out this gap, I do not mean to flaunt our seniority. I just want to point out that there have been significant changes in our society and economy during this period. Our past experiences are largely irrelevant to the youth of today.
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1970s and 1980s are acclaimed as the golden age of Hong Kong. At that time, Hong Kong gave people an impression that it was full of opportunities. Although we had gone through many ups and downs, Hong Kong's economy was generally expanding and developing fast. There were increasing job opportunities in both the private and public sectors, with hardly any layoff or wage cut. The then migration waves had brought in new and cheap labour force to Hong Kong, creating many promotion opportunities for existing workers to move upward. While we had all experienced the times of low starting salary, high inflation and rocketing property prices, the rapid pay rise and promotion often gave us opportunities and hopes. After graduation, most of us could easily find our first job and gradually build our careers through changing jobs. We could then improve our livelihood step by step to achieve our goals of home purchase and self-employment. That was the Hong Kong story that people in our generation had.
However, the times have changed. With the advent of globalization, competition has intensified and enterprises are required to transform their businesses. Young people have gradually lost a stable career path. With the Government taking the lead, enterprises of different sizes now hire a large number of employees on contract basis, short-term contract, subcontract or self-employed contract. It is also increasingly common for them to contract out the entire operation. The chances for promotion and pay rise are hence getting slim. Studying hard can no longer guarantee a good prospect. Some associate degree graduates told me that they would have "IPAD" for sure after graduation. I am not talking about the Apple iPad but "Insecure" (insecurity caused by the lack of articulation places), "Pessimistic" (worries for fear of being unable to employ their knowledge at work), "Academic-Inflation" and "Debt-ridden".
An even greater problem is that our Government has all along failed to make any far-sighted planning. It just adheres to the "active non-intervention policy", blindly believing in market forces and previous successful experiences. As a result, it connives at the domination of finance and real estate industries which hollows Hong Kong's industries and turns them into unitary development. On land supply, the Government's failure in managing its land reserve properly has jacked up property prices and rents, making it impossible for young people to buy their own flats. High property price has also hindered or frustrated the development of diversified industries. Therefore, it is increasingly difficult for LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2719 young people to persist in starting up a business. Some cultural or art workers may have to give up their studios or even the jobs they like.
President, the key of our young people's prospect lies on the structure of our economy and industries. I think it is time for the SAR Government to give up the "active non-interventionism" that it has long adhered to. It must create a good economic and social environment to provide favourable conditions for our young people to write their own wonderful Hong Kong story that have visions and real life experiences.
Therefore, the Government should, in formulating policies, make young people feel that it actually understands their difficulties and is trying to alleviate their hardship. There are many proposed measures in Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion, and I agree to and support most of them. In respect of student loans, the Government should try to minimize students' debt burden and waive unnecessary interest. On employment, the Government should be aware of the different academic performances of young people and provide them with more choices in vocational training, so as to let them shine in different areas. Regarding the housing problem, I think providing more public rental housing units and Home Ownership Scheme flats can help young people form their own families. However, I do not think it is the right time to study the re-launching of the Home Starter Loan Scheme as proposed in the motion. As for business start-up, I know that many young people are passionate in starting up their own businesses. Therefore, the Government should provide them with some courses on business start-up to teach them how to start up a business. The Government may even set up a fund to offer loans to young people who have a more mature business plan. All these are worth considering. As young people are the future pillars of society, the Government should listen more to their views and enhance their participation in drafting the blueprint of social development. They should be given more chances to express their views in the establishment.
President, I often hear employers complaining about the unsatisfactory working attitude and poor skills of the youth of today. I admit that the work performance of some young people is really far below our expectations and requirements. However, I believe most of the young people are willing to work hard and strive for success; they also want to study well and contribute to the community. Yet, they do not have the opportunities that we once had. Perhaps, some may say that each generation is worse than the previous one; but I 2720 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 am of the view that "each generation has its own problems" in understanding the environment facing our next generation.
President, I support the motion of Mr CHAN Hak-kan. Also, I support the amendments of Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr CHAN Kam-lam and Mr IP Kin-yuen as I think they have enriched the original motion to stipulate a better youth policy.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
MRS REGINA IP (in Cantonese): President, I would like to thank Mr CHAN Hak-kan for proposing today's motion, expressing concern for the "three problems" of young people relating to "education, employment and business start-up". I would also like to thank the eight colleagues for putting forward amendments, among which 20-odd measures have been proposed with the aim of helping to resolve the "three problems" of young people. It is evident that colleagues of this Council care very much for our young people. This warrants the attention of the Government.
I only wish to put forward a few comments on the proposals of the colleagues. First, I believe all Members wish to help young people resolve the "three problems". Personally I hold that to facilitate the upward mobility of young people and to ensure a better future for them, it is imperative to provide better education. President, you had been a principal before. I guess you would undoubtedly agree to this. Education can genuinely change the fate of a person and provide the greatest motivation in creating spacious room for upward mobility. It is reported in newspapers today that the education system of Hong Kong has been ranked among the top three in a survey conducted by Pearson, a British publisher. I agree with the comment of a major newspaper that this finding is rather surprising, because the middle class and professionals in Hong Kong, as well as elites in society, including many government officials, have little confidence in our public education system. Their act of sending their children to study in international schools and schools under the Direct Subsidy Scheme, or arranging them to study abroad is well evident. As a matter of fact, our education system is plagued with problems. Personally, I particularly object to the policy of the previous Government in turning education into a commercial commodity and an industry. I will propose a motion to highlight the problems LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2721 of turning education into an industry later. Thus, I hold that attaching importance to education and improving the quality of education is the best solution to solve the "three problems" of young people ― although it may take a longer time to achieve the goal.
Second, I share the view of many colleagues that our young people are hard hit by the globalization of the world economy. Hong Kong is an open society. With the rise of China and India, hundreds of millions of people with university degrees and professional training are entering the employment market of Hong Kong. A report in today's newspaper has revealed that there is a drop in the number of people going northward to work in the Mainland now. This is because with the growing maturity of the Mainland enterprises and an increasing number of talents, the Mainland enterprises may not necessarily need to employ talents from Hong Kong. Thus, if young people in Hong Kong are looking for positions that open up to the world ― the majority of positions in Hong Kong are open up to the world ― they will be hard hit.
Thus, I especially appreciate the amendments proposed by our colleagues today. In particular, I have noted the amendment proposed by Mr KWOK Wai-keung. He attaches much importance to providing more opportunities for young people to further their study and gain access to internships in overseas countries, as well as encouraging more non-local enterprises to come to Hong Kong for investment. This will facilitate a more diversified economic structure in Hong Kong and more employment opportunities for our young people, not just jobs in the retail or property sectors. This is very important. I particularly appreciate the initiative regarding the provision of more opportunities of overseas internships and exchanges for young people of Hong Kong. Despite the fact that Hong Kong is an advanced city, our young people are susceptible to traps. As many families in Hong Kong have only one or two children, many parents tend to be overprotective to their children. While life in Hong Kong may be difficult, when compared to life in overseas countries where children have to go to school even in windy and snowy weather, and people have to cycle over half an hour to go to school or to work, young people in Hong Kong should broaden their horizons by going overseas to learn more, so that they can endure hardship and preserve in toil. This may be a relatively conservative view, but I hold that it is very important.
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Moreover, I agree that we should provide more support services to young people. However, I do not support setting up a department or an organization to co-ordinate all services catered for young people. On the one hand, though we need to show our care for young people, I do not think the Government should turn into a "nanny-government" which provides advices on every facet that concerns young people, from starting up business, studying, training or home acquisition, to courting, borrowing loans, and making friends. This is inappropriate. We should try our best to train young people to be more independent and enhance their endurance of hardship. Thus, last year, the New People's Party put forward a proposal of providing opportunities for young people of Hong Kong to join the army on a voluntary basis, thereby giving them a chance to receive intensive military training, just like their peers in Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and many other places in the world.
With respect to the Commission on Youth, I concur with many colleagues that members of the Commission should be those who truly understand the needs of young people, and not purely leaders of associations or elites born in wealthy families. As a matter of fact, those in the greatest need of help are young people from less well-off families and with grim prospects. Hence, we should invite people who understand the thinking of those "angry youth" and "young people at risk" to join the Commission on Youth.
Finally, I would like to respond to Dr Helena WONG. She mentioned just now that the Government should do more, and it should restrict the number of Mainland students pursuing PhD studies in the tertiary institutions of Hong Kong. Undoubtedly, such a phenomenon is true. However, after talking to these institutions, I found that they are somewhat forced to admit so many foreign students, in particular, Mainland postgraduates, to pursue PhD studies. Many people will pursue a master degree. The EMBA Program of the few universities with higher rankings has attracted many students. Even if the tuition fee is as high as $1 million, there are still many enrolments. These universities thus can earn huge amount of Renminbi. However, first, local students do not incline to pursue PhD studies. President, you are very aware of this fact. Second, some professors of tertiary institutions have told students pursuing PhD studies that after graduation, the universities would not employ them as only world-renowned academics will be employed in consideration of the ranking of the university. Thus, this may dampen local young people's enthusiasm in pursuing the study of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2723
PhD. Some real difficulties are involved. However, I (The buzzer sounded) …… President, owing to time constraints, I so submit. Thank you.
MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): President, I would like to speak on the motion proposed by Mr CHAN Hak-kan. Just now, friends from the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB) have already spoken on the many problems now encountered by young people. Today, I only wish to pour out more grievances on behalf of them. To be sure, young people are the future pillars of society. However, the pathetic reality is that, before young people become the pillars, under the circumstances of rapid changes and continuous challenges in society, some young people ― I dare not say the majority ― some young people are seen as members of the disadvantaged groups.
Probably some would think that as Hong Kong is an affluent society, it should not be a problem for young people to maintain the basic living. However, with the continuous progress of society, the living condition of young people in general goes from bad to worse. There are numerous problems such as difficulties in home acquisition and job mismatch. I will cite some examples which I believe Members of this Council and the general public of Hong Kong will not have much objection.
For instance, in the 1970s, a young person who had completed a university degree course was exclusively and nicely named as "the cream of society". Today, university graduates (someone like me) are seldom called "the cream of society" any more. "The cream of society" of the 1970s did not have to worry about finding a job which was commensurate with his qualification. At present, there is a phenomenon that graduates with a bachelor degree, even graduates with a master degree, have to engage in fierce fight for a job which requires the qualification of a Form Five graduate. Hence, there are instances where a person with a bachelor degree disguises as a graduate with a master degree; a person with a master degree disguises as a graduate with a PhD, an associate professor disguises as a professor. We notice that ― probably the Secretary has also observed that ― there are similar cases in the recruitment of Assistant Clerical Officers of the Civil Service.
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It is evident that the present young generation has to devote more money, time, and efforts in order to get what their predecessors could get. In the face of such an imbalanced situation, why the Administration has not formulated corresponding and effective policies to offer support to our young people? Would the Government feel happy that jobs requiring the qualification of a Form Five graduate have won the favour of and have been sought after by graduates with a master degree? We must not forget the unemployment rate of young people has reached over 10%. This is what happens to young people with high educational attainment, I dare not even mention friends of lower educational attainment.
Regarding starting up business, in the past, young people who showed no interest in studying, or who failed in academic achievements, could choose to work. And if they found themselves in a miserable plight mentioned by me just now, they could still ask their parents, friends or people in their network for help. Of course, most importantly, they should be self-reliant, and it was not too difficult to start up a small business. Some of my friends, who are older than me, have realized their dream in starting up their business. At present, the Government has proscribed small enterprises, and the market is monopolized by business tycoons, making it difficult for young people to start up their business. For a young person who wishes to start up a business, unless he has outstanding vision, otherwise, he has to face the waves of monopolization of different sectors, under which he is like a small boat being swallowed by tempestuous and raging waves; and this may happen in an instant.
With respect to housing, in the face of the aforesaid circumstances, even if young people in the past could not afford to achieve home ownership, but with public rental housing, the implementation of Home Ownership Scheme, and the Home Starter Loan Scheme, at least they could rely on the support of the Government. Even though they could not afford home acquisition, they would not have to worry about accommodation, one of basic needs of living. How about the present situation? There are many instances where they are under the plight of "three have-nots". There are fishermen who are living in fishing boats of "three have-nots". Some people are very fortunate. Those who come from well-off families can buy their own home with the assistance from their families. But those who come from less well-off families ― like the cases mentioned by Mr CHAN Hak-kan ― they may have to live in their parent's home even at the age of 30. Those who are able to move out are very fortunate. I am one of LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2725 them, but I have only managed to move out recently. Many friends still cannot afford home ownership or leave their parents' home, and they can only live in cubicle apartment, which can merely accommodate one person. But if they get married and have a family, how can they still live in a cubicle apartment?
The Administration may have often heard the aforesaid examples recently. Such instances had been cited over and over again in the past. It is precisely this kind of attitude and mentality that we consider pathetic. How come the issue has still not been addressed after it has been raised for such a long time? Why hasn't a policy on young people been drawn up correspondingly? What is the "future" of the future pillars of society? Why have young people who should be full of life and vitality become the disadvantaged group, and that problems concerning their basic requirements such as housing, employment, and education have not been resolved? Irrespective of whether Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion can be passed today, I hope that the Government will seriously consider the implementation of proposals put forward by Mr CHAN Hak-kan with a view to alleviating the difficulties encountered by young people in the areas of employment, education and housing. As friends of the DAB have elaborated on the issue, I will not repeat each item in detail.
At present, in the face of the ban on trawling and transformation, the agriculture and fisheries industry is encountering years of troubles. Apart from the much needed help from the Government, we need the injection of youthful energy and new thinking. Thus, I have proposed that the Government should expeditiously develop the agriculture and fisheries industry which should incorporate the factor of sustainability, such as setting up ecological farms that integrate with environmental-friendly carbon reduction activities. Why do I make this proposal? Just think, at present, many young people are concerned about the development of the agriculture and fisheries industry, and they get involved in environmental protection activities. I believe if the Government integrates the development of high-technology agriculture with environmental protection industry, young people, who are unemployed due to job mismatch, can be attracted to join the industry, and they may have a chance to display their talents, which will be conducive to their business start-ups. Let me cite an example. A number of friends in Lau Fau Shan have given up their jobs in the financial sector to join the sector of organic production. They are now earning a handsome income (The buzzer sounded) ……
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Your speaking time is up.
MR STEVEN HO (in Cantonese): President, I so submit.
MR TONY TSE (in Cantonese): President, earlier, I had consulted some professionals of the industry of their views regarding the Policy Address and the Budget for the next year. The first view put forward by them unanimously was more opportunities and room must be provided for young people to climb up the social ladder.
It is imperative for the Government to formulate policies that help young people resolve various problems they encounter in pursuing further studies, employment, housing and business start-up. With respect to the issue of employment, I hold that as the biggest employer in Hong Kong, the Government should assume a leading role in providing more employment and training opportunities to young people. According to my understanding, the Government will provide two-year contracts for trainee posts in some professional grades, such as in the architectural and surveying fields, with a view to helping the employed persons attain professional qualification. Hence, when their contracts expire, the Government would continue to employ them on the condition that they have attained the relevant professional qualification, so that they can be promoted to formal professional posts. This arrangement can ensure that talents are fully utilized. Under the existing practice, their service contract will not be renewed upon expiry, forcing them to leave the Government and join the private sector. This does not only hinder the development of young people, but also gives people the impression that the Government has failed to fully utilize talents. Thus, I urge the Government to face this issue squarely and facilitate an early resolution.
President, the development of young people is one of the issues of great concern to me. Earlier, I had proposed that the Government should formulate long-term development plans for various professional areas. It is anticipated that a number of large development projects will be implemented in Hong Kong one after another in the next few years. A large number of professional and technical personnel of various areas will be needed. To enable local people of the relevant disciplines to have a greater level of participation in these projects, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2727 and to provide more opportunities for young people to gain practical experience, it is necessary for the Government to formulate relevant policies and complementary measures. I propose that the Government should draw up a policy that incorporates the element of "according priority to local people". In response to the needs of the projects, when world-famous consultancy firms are being commissioned, the Government should ensure that more local companies as well as professional and technical personnel, particularly young people, would be given more opportunities and room to take part in the projects.
Apart from Hong Kong, the Mainland also provides chances for our young people and professionals to bring their capabilities into play. I urge the Government to put in greater efforts to help aspiring people to strive for development in the Mainland. It should provide more incentives to encourage young people to go northward to work or start up their business. The incentives provided can be in the form of tax concessions and wage subsidies, or a reduced amount of tertiary education loans to be repaid by graduates, so as to encourage more fresh graduates to seek employment in the Mainland. This will not only enable them to broaden their vision and develop their professionalism, but will also enhance their knowledge and understanding of the Mainland.
President, for many people, continuous education plays an important role in their career development. Therefore, I have proposed to extend the existing Continuing Education Fund to cover courses of higher educational attainment and more professional programmes, with a view to encouraging and helping more young people to pursue continuous education.
Moreover, the Government should roll out initiatives to help young people with housing needs, such as building more youth hostels as an option of rental housing. However, I do not agree to help young people acquire their own home at an early stage. This is because if young people acquire their own home before they have built a sound foundation, it may incur enormous pressure on them, which is absolutely not a good thing.
Finally, I would like to respond to the amendment proposed by Dr Helena WONG. In her amendment, she has put forth the allegations that people cannot effectively monitor the Government, and the Government's policies lopsided towards the establishment as well as industrial and commercial interests. I do not agree to these allegations. Hong Kong's success depends on the 2728 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 communication, understanding and co-operation between the Government and various parties and sectors. Hong Kong is often divided into various groups by some people, and an antagonistic situation is created intentionally. They have engaged in activities such as hurling abuses, criticizing, and confrontation; and have adopted uncompromising and unco-operative attitude in addressing issues, causing rifts among the community. Is this advantageous to the development of young people? Will this bring about positive impacts to the overall development of the society of Hong Kong? All these merit our thorough consideration.
President, I so submit.
MR CHAN KIN-POR (in Cantonese): President, the issue related to the difficulties faced by young people in education, employment, housing and home acquisition, and business start-up is under discussion in this Council today. This issue of hardship experienced by young people is not exclusive to Hong Kong. Young people around the world are encountering similar problems, among which the problem of unemployment seems to have international universality. The youth unemployment rate of Hong Kong is around 10%. In the United States, the youth unemployment rate reaches as high as 17%. The situation in European countries is even more alarming, with over 30% recorded in Italy, and over 50% in Spain and Greece, the figure of which has reached a shocking state. It is evident that young people all over the world have become the "lost generation".
Of course, there are reasons why young people have become the "lost generation". The global economy had experienced a long period of rapid development after the Second World War. Up till now, apart from a minority of emerging economies, most economies in the world have developed into a mature stage. The opportunities of upward mobility for young people have been drastically reduced. Unlike the previous generations, it is difficult for them to achieve returns in their career development through individual efforts. And most pitiful of all, they have to bear the brunt whenever there are economic fluctuations. It is not surprising at all that the youth unemployment rate in Europe has reached such a shocking state.
Members have put forward many useful proposals to the issue under discussion today. However, I hold that if some core issues cannot be resolved first, the other proposals are of no avail. The core issues I have referred to is to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2729 improve the imbalanced structure of our economy. To put it in clearer terms, it is to create more good jobs with better prospects for young people.
As a matter of fact, the economic fundamentals in Hong Kong are strong. However, due to the imbalanced economic structure where development is biased towards financial and real estate sectors, bringing substantial returns to the practitioners, and inducing many outstanding young people to join the sectors. Unfortunately, the demand outstrips the supply. In order to foster the development of the overall society, I hold that apart from consolidating the development of financial sectors in Hong Kong, it is imperative to change the existing situation of imbalanced industrial structure, vigorously develop the six priority industries, and promote the development of industries. This initiative will not only foster economic development, more importantly, it will create diversified employment opportunities, so that university students who do not study in business management, or young people who are not interested in studying will have a suitable venue where they can strive for a better life.
On the other hand, although there are decreasing opportunities for young people in Hong Kong, developments in the Mainland are flourishing. This situation resembles the one in Hong Kong during the 1970s and 1980s when there were opportunities for people so long as they were willing to work with a combative spirit and to endure hardship. As a matter of fact, it is not necessary for local young people to stay in Hong Kong and "restrain in an enclosed environment". Instead, they can take a look at the vast territory of our country to identify and exploit the unlimited opportunities offered.
However, young people generally do not have channels for working in the Mainland. The Government should seriously ponder on helping aspiring young people develop their career in the Mainland. First of all, it should organize more exchange activities with a view to providing more opportunities for young people to learn about the Mainland. When they show interest in career development in the Mainland, the Government should help them identify employment or internship opportunities. In the end, it is unavoidable that some will succeed while some will fail in their endeavours. Nevertheless, if they fail, at least the experience will facilitate a broadening of visions, so that they will not remain myopic, which will be conducive to their development in the future.
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While we are devising means to help young people, the most important of all is that young people should be sensible. Otherwise, despite the Government's efforts of providing more help, if young people do not know how to cherish the opportunities, it will be "a waste of time". Some young people in Hong Kong have grown up in an environment of material affluence. They are not only unable to endure hardship, but also have little confidence in themselves. They are vulnerable physically as well as emotionally. I hope that the bureau responsible for education will, apart from imparting knowledge to young people, also provide appropriate courses that enhance their fortitude and will power; for only young people of fortitude will be able to become the pillars of society.
Finally, I would like to talk about the issue of education. Despite the fact that I have not conducted in-depth studies into the education policy, I can see a phenomenon, and that is, upon graduation from university, young people have to bear the heavy burden of debts, which are the arrears for repayment of loans offered by the Non-means Tested Loan Scheme. At the time of economic prosperity in the past, most of the young people were able to find a job of high position and handsome salaries soon after graduation. They could afford repaying the arrears and were willing to do so. However, the present economic environment is worse than before. With the continuous increase of tertiary students, apart from the top graduates, other students have to face the reality and accept jobs with neither prospects nor high pay. If they have to bear heavy burden of debts, their life will not be easy; not to mention saving up for getting married or buying their own home.
Thus, I agree that the Government should conduct a comprehensive review of various existing student financial assistance schemes, and implement targeted reforms after taking into account the current real situation of graduates. As a matter of fact, I hold that some tasks can be implemented instantly, such as abolishing risk-adjusted factors. It is inappropriate to apply these modes of operation adopted solely by business organizations to the loan schemes provided by the Government to university students.
I so submit.
MR LEE CHEUK-YAN (in Cantonese): President, just now an Honourable colleague said that young people belong to the lost generation. But, why are LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2731 they at a loss? In fact, it is we, the generation of adults and the generation of "accomplished" people who are the culprits. Have we improved the social environment and enhanced the environments of politics, economics, and so on, so that they will not be at a loss? I opine this is the problem that we should deal with today.
What kinds of economic and political environments have we actually provided for young people today? Regarding the economic environment, "speculation" dominates; one will become rich by "speculation". As for the others, they all have to "work as hard as a mule", with long working hours. As for business start-up ― one of the headings in today's original motion ― it will even be more difficult. Why is it so difficult to start up a business? It is not because young people do not have talents, but because of high shop rental, high premiums, high property prices and high rents. How are they able to start up a business? Everything earned from business start-up is to be handed over to property developers. This is tantamount to working for property developers; everything has been "sucked up", hence business start-up becomes meaningless. In this connection, if we intend to seriously deal with today's problems, we must definitely improve the environments in respect of politics, economics and education, and so on.
First of all, I would like to talk about education. In this regard, we all remember that TUNG Chee-hwa mentioned before about allowing 60% of Hong Kong young people to obtain tertiary qualifications, which was a magnificent idea. How is this target to be achieved? Now we can see how. It is not by relying on the Government to provide more publicly-funded university degrees, but by asking students to be "heavily in debts" to undertake associate degree programmes. However, after completing the associate degree programmes, they still cannot further their studies at university, they in fact "fall between two stools". Everybody believes that there are no prospects; therefore, associate degree students are facing great pressure to obtain a degree.
How do they obtain a degree? Not by enrolling in university degree programmes funded by the Government, but by enrolling in self-financed bachelor's degree programmes. After completing the self-financed associate degree programmes, the students continue to undertake self-financed bachelor's degree programmes. Tuition fees for self-financed associate degree programmes can reach $100,000 per year; tuition fees for bachelor's degree programmes are 2732 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 even more expensive. If they undertake both associate and bachelor's degree programmes, it would take them a long time for them to repay all debts upon graduation. This is where the problem lies.
However, despite the fact that we have raised this issue for years, the Government has not yet resolved the problem, and continues to play this game, allowing all universities to become unscrupulous education institutions and reap huge profits. The number of publicly-funded university degrees remains the same, but the number of non-funded degree places has been increased, sucking up students' money. Is this fair to do so? Furthermore, those universities do not need to compete with other institutions since they have already monopolized the market and the Government has also fed them up with subsidies, so that they can make use of the government subsidies to run profitable "non-funded" programmes. This is the practice of "unscrupulous education institutions", but the Government has not addressed the problem.
Up until now, we still fail to understand why the Government does not substantially increase the places for publicly-funded bachelor's degree programmes, so that at least students who are eligible for university admission can receive subsidy, while whose who are not eligible may have to attend associate degree programmes first, and upon completion of the associate degree programmes, they should be given the opportunities to study at university. However, the Government has done nothing. So far, the Secretary for Education has not told us how he would resolve this problem and how he would avoid young people from "being heavily in debt". Upon graduation, young people need to repay their debts with their salaries since the Government has not provided any assistance at all. What kind of education policy is this? How will young people not be at a loss?
Second major area of concern is employment. I am not saying that everyone must attend university, since each person has different opportunities throughout his life, and may make different choices. It is not necessary for everyone to attend university. They can choose to take up jobs which are more technical oriented, depending on whether the Government's employment policies can provide assistance. The "Youth Pre-employment Training Programme" or "Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme" only provides a transition arrangement, failing to help young people develop skills that they can make use of throughout their life.
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How can we assist young people in developing skills? Someone said that I have hindered their development, because with the implementation of the minimum wage, young people cannot take up apprenticeship, and even if they want to be hairdressers, there is no pathway available. I do not think this is the case. If young people want to be hairdressers, the Vocational Training Council and the Institute of Vocational Education can offer help. Can the Secretary please tell us why more training contracts cannot be provided? We keep saying that training contracts is a feasible option. Trainees can work as interns for companies, and at the same time, arrangements will be made for them to receive academic training. If we provide training contracts for young people, they can become masters upon completion of the training. Through this way young people can step into the employment ladder. Why is it not being implemented? At present, the labour shortage problem happens in various areas, and many trades and industries state that they cannot recruit staff. If only the Government is able to make more efforts in this respect ― later the Secretary will surely say that they have made efforts ― but the question is whether the Government's efforts are sufficient? Can more be done? Now that various trades and industries have said that they are unable to recruit staff, it is time that the Government made more efforts.
On the other hand, we are a little dissatisfied with the Secretary. Has he encouraged local employment? I asked Cathay Pacific today and found that the Government has not stipulated the proportion of local employment. If the authorities have formulated provisions in this regard, will the situation be improved to a certain extent? The pilots of Cathay Pacific or Dragonair are all foreigners. Why do they only employ a small number of local pilots? This is a profession that young people can join. Why have we not made more efforts? Failing to make more efforts in various aspects will lead to young people facing problems in education as well as employment.
We hope that the Secretary will make more efforts on these two aspects. Education needs reforms, and employment needs more pathways, so as to help resolve the problems of young people. Thank you, President.
MR CHRISTOPHER CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, this Monday a Hong Kong-style café (Tsui Wah) was listed. Some people say that this is a Hong Kong legend. In fact, this is one of the thousands of Hong Kong stories about 2734 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 starting a business from scratch. The hero began to work as a "takeaway boy" from the 1960s onwards, working and learning at the same time, ultimately creating the myth of the listing of a café.
From the 1960s to the Millennium, the society had undergone a period of postwar economic recovery. With development opportunities everywhere and high upward social mobility, many young people at that time became middle-class professionals. However, nowadays, development opportunities in Hong Kong have become fewer and fewer. If young people aim to move upward by working hard alone, the road to success will not be smooth, or they will even be unable to find a right path.
In the face of globalization and rapid development of neighbouring regions, young people in Hong Kong often complain that the opportunities of upward mobility have been reduced. Their hard work fails to give them good reward. Furthermore, increase in property prices has outrun salary increase, making it difficult to save the down payment and impossible for home acquisition. Over time, young people have generated a sense of powerlessness and discontent towards the society.
In this connection, the DAB proposes this motion today, in the hope that the Government can respond to the changes in society, and provide assistances to young people in respect of education, employment, housing, home acquisition and business start-up. I would like to spend the following time focusing on employment.
The unemployment rate of young people in Hong Kong is always much higher than the overall unemployment rate. In the quarter from August to October this year, the overall unemployment rate was 3.4%, but the unemployment rate of people aged 15 to 19 was up to 15.3%. The younger the age, the higher the unemployment rate. In this connection, the Government, the business community, and education institutions should all consider how they can assist young people who have just graduated in entering the job market.
In pace with social and economic changes, Hong Kong has emerged from a low-technology and labour-intensive economy to a service-oriented economy that emphasizes on specialized skills and professional knowledge. It is only when it comes to apply knowledge that one regrets not acquiring enough of it. Young people can only succeed in finding good jobs or keeping existing positions LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2735 through continuing education to upgrade their competitiveness. At present, requirements for enrolling in continuing education courses are increasingly high and tuition fees are also on the rise. Young people who have recently joined the workforce often relay to us: how can they afford to enrol in master's courses of tuition fees over $100,000 when their salaries are only a little over $10,000 a month? Currently the Continuing Education Fund Scheme is capped at $10,000, which cannot meet the high tuition fees. The Government should make some efforts in this regard by raising the maximum amount of subsidy to $20,000. The amendment proposed by the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions even suggests that the cap be increased to $40,000. We certainly welcome this if it is accepted by the Government. In addition, under the existing arrangement, upon opening an account, the applicants must apply for full reimbursement within four years. As this arrangement lacks flexibility, the Government should extend the relevant period.
Furthermore, assistances targeting on youth employment are generally lacking in the community. For instance, currently there are only two "Youth Employment Start" centers in Hong Kong, which are not sufficient to meet service demand and more centres should be set up. The amount of subsidies payable to employers under the "Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme" is only $2,000. With the implementation of the minimum wage, salaries for training have raised. As a result, employers' incentive of participation in the scheme has diminished. The Government should raise the level of the subsidy to $3,000, so as to attract employers to participate.
Success lies in planning. When it comes to employment, schools generally do not focus on career education now, making it hard for young graduates to understand the job market, nor do they know their own aspirations or what kinds of jobs will suit them in the future. In this regard, secondary schools in Hong Kong should follow the examples of Taiwan, attempting to promote career education in classrooms, so that students can plan their own career ladders as early as possible. In addition, the existing secondary school curricula focus primarily on dealing with public examinations, laying particular emphasis on good grades in academic subjects. However, for those academically unmotivated students, it is difficult for them to apply their knowledge acquired in schools to their workplaces. In this connection, the Government should encourage Government and subsidized secondary schools to provide more 2736 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 practical subjects, such as culinary arts, sport, visual arts, fashion design, painting, music and construction industry, and so on, so that students who are not interested in the curricula provided by traditional grammar schools can easily seek for employment.
Employers can also play a role in assisting fledgling young people, for instance, by employing less-experienced young people or providing "training leave", as practiced in foreign enterprises, and so on. Employees are major assets of a company. By offering adequate learning opportunities, employers can provide employees with a sense of belonging to the company; and the value-added knowledge acquired by employees can ultimately be applied to their work. This is a win-win situation for the enterprise and employees.
In fact, young people in Hong Kong do have grievances concerning the current employment situation. Just consider, security guards earn more than $10,000 per month, while the salaries for newly-graduated university students merely range from $9,000-odd to $12,000. This is truly ridiculous. I opine that this phenomenon of downward mobility of young people is related to the over-monotonous structure of our industries. What the Government can do is in fact promoting diversification of industries in Hong Kong, not focusing only on industries of finance, property as well as commerce and trade. The Government should develop more industries suitable for young people, such as cultural arts, comics and animation, mobile phone apps design, and so on, so as to motivate young people to engage in these industries and give full play to their knowledge and skills.
Recently, the Chief Executive has announced that Chai Wan Factory Estate would be reconstructed into public rental housing. As a matter of fact, we opine that this factory building is full of artistic atmosphere, and that the units should be divided into studios of suitable size and opened up to young people, so as to develop creative industries such as art software, music (The buzzer sounded) …… so that they can continue to serve the community.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
MR NG LEUNG-SING (in Cantonese): President, most people would agree that young people are the pillars of society in the future. In Hong Kong, young LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2737 people generally refer to secondary students in their teens and persons aged 20 to 30. They belong to the group of people who are still receiving education and who have stepped into society and started to contribute to society.
According to the statistics of the Census and Statistics Department (C&SD) on the population profile in the last five years, the population of people aged 10 to 29 has declined year on year from 1.8 million in 2008 to 1.69 million in mid-2012, while the population of people aged 60 to 79 in the same period has risen from 970 000 to 1.12 million. According to the projections released by the C&SD, Hong Kong labour force in the next 30 years will be lowered by 10%; on the other hand, the proportion of the elderly population will be doubled. We can anticipate that the ageing trend in Hong Kong will be very serious. As future pillars of the society, young people will take up the complete burden of the society.
For many years, we have "troubled youths", "hidden youths", "drug-abused youths" and "non-engaged youths" in society. Young people have difficulties in receiving education, difficulties in seeking employment, difficulties in home ownership, and difficulties in business start-up as mentioned in today's motion. These "four difficulties" faced by young people warrant social concern. If this situation continues, soon there will be "five difficulties", "six difficulties", and so on. Life of young people is, as depicted in a well-known Cantonese song: "difficult, difficult, difficult."
Youth problems in fact derived from the community as a whole, a microcosm of the overall society, and the results of the education system imposed by parents and teachers on students. Firstly, the transformation of economic structures lead to the monotonous mode, including the contraction of industrial development and the over-concentration on several industries, such as property, finance, retail, and logistics.
Secondly, education changes in pace with society, leading to significant deviations in education work that require improvement. Moreover, industrial and practical secondary schools have disappeared, while IT has become a hot trend.
Thirdly, it is the bias on industrial values. In the past, it was said that "workers have no prospect". This is even more salient today. Young people 2738 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 looking for upward mobility can only strive for university education; workers in low-skilled jobs are not welcome. For those young people who performed badly in schools and cannot find a job due to low academic attainment, they have lost confidence in society as well as in themselves. Consequently, they have become hidden youths living in seclusion or become indulged in the computer world. Some even gather together to seek for stimulation and give vent to their feelings, or gang up to take drugs and make trouble. Worse still, some even run away from home and abandon themselves to self-destruction.
President, how serious the abovementioned youth problems are? I also opine that youth problems should be "calling a spade a spade". Last Saturday, the "Youth Summit 2012" (the Summit) was held at Chai Wan Youth Square. Over 450 young people who have not yet or have already joined the work force participated in the event, exploring social hot issues and directions for youth development. Among them, many have demonstrated the high aspirations of Hong Kong young people, which is a considerable progress compared to the past. Many of them care for the community, understand the social commitments of young people, as well as recognize that much remained to be done by themselves. This is a positive force of young people that we should affirm.
Without doubt, young people are facing difficulties in education, employment, home acquisition and business start-up, and so on, to which the society should pay close attention. It is also a challenge that the whole society should face together. In face with these problems, I opine that the focus should not be put on subsidies, but on creating a suitable environment for development. Encouragement should be the focus.
With regard to education, increasing tertiary places is one solution; raising academic places and status of technical disciplines is another. With regard to employment, the society should establish a public concept that "all jobs are made equal". Even if the number of university students has increased, it is unlikely that everybody is qualified to be CEO. Through working at mid-level or first working at primary level, one is also able to work one's way up. The Government should at the same time create a diversified industrial structure by opening up and supporting innovative industries, so as to enable young people to develop together with the community.
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Home acquisition problem is not unique to young people. The current-term Government strives to resolve the housing problem by implementing "top priority" policies. It is hoped that the day when the housing problem is effectively resolved, it will also be the time that young people overcome their difficulties in home acquisition.
Regarding business start-up problem, young people's strengths lie in their courage to attempt and their creativity. However, what they lack is accumulation of experience and development of operating environment. In this connection, the Government needs to provide assistances and more supportive works in this regard, so as to enhance their potentials in all aspects.
President, finally, it is my wish that, under the concern of all parties, young people are able to enjoy their learning, have good prospects in their careers, work and live in contentment, and to strive for a better tomorrow together with all sectors of society.
I so submit.
MISS ALICE MAK (in Cantonese): President, the recognition of associate degree programmes has long been doubted since their introduction in 2000. Although in recent years, the Government has stated that it is willing to employ high diploma and associate degree holders, countless of associate degree holders become non-engaged youth after graduation. Many employers do not know what students have learnt from high diploma and associate degree programmes and hence they prefer employing degree holders or secondary school graduates with a few years of work experience.
As it is hard to find a job, these associate degree holders can only turn to the path of studies. However, while there are more than 30 000 publicly-funded and self-financing associate degree places every year, less than 2 000 articulation places are available for associate degree graduates to continue their studies in Year 2 undergraduate programmes. Anyone who wants to further his study must have a very high GPA to stand a chance of getting a place in publicly-funded degree programmes. Though the Government has lately increased the number of articulation places to 4 000, it is not enough for these associate degree graduates to further their studies. They simply get stuck after 2740 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 graduation as they can neither find a job nor pursue further studies. What is the way out for them? In view of this, we hope that the Government can introduce some effective measures to enhance the recognition of associate degree. It should also provide more articulation places for associate degree holders to continue their studies in Year 2 undergraduate programmes. Otherwise, enrolling in associate degree programmes, which neither help in seeking employment nor pursuing further studies, are just wasting the school fees paid by students' mothers.
Besides, many university students often have to spend four hours a day to travel to and from university to attend their regular classes. When they are asked to list their extra-curricular activities on their resumes, they have fewer and fewer activities to put on ― I think many of those in the business sector have noticed that as well ― and giving private tuition may possibly be their most popular extra-curricular activity at present. Therefore, we hope that the Government can provide more university hostel places for students to live on campus and have more opportunities for social involvement.
Although the eight universities are now building hostels to provide some 4 000 hostel places for students in the double-cohort year to apply, the estimation of the Education Bureau reveals that, in 2014, these eight universities will still be short of 13 600 hostel places. As many students who live in remote areas cannot reside in hostels, we hope that the Government can do more in this area, so that university students will not just have private tuition as their extra-curricular activities.
Today, we see three Directors of Bureaux at this meeting but youth development actually requires the support of cross-departmental policy. The two Directors of Bureaux that I want to see most are the Secretary for Home Affairs Mr TSANG Tak-sing and the Secretary for Development Mr Paul CHAN. This is because various youth policies require the collaboration of different departments. Recently, I have received a request for assistance from a dragon dance group. This group has won lots of awards in Asian games and was even invited to perform at the opening ceremony of the Hong Kong Pavilion in the Shanghai Expo. Yet, what happens to them when they come back to Hong Kong after performing at big shows and winning fame overseas? They cannot find a place for practice. They even have to store their quincuncial piles used LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2741 for practice in different places. No matter how famous they are overseas, they often receive penalty tickets when they practise in Hong Kong.
It just happens that I have got two penalty tickets which they gave me yesterday. These two tickets were issued by the Lands Department and the Food and Environmental Department respectively, charging the group for casual placing of quincuncial piles. This dragon dance group has not only contributed to the preservation of Chinese culture; what is more, they have provided young people with a healthy recreation and sports activity. Their young members can bring their talents into play in an area other than formal education. Why do the authorities not give them a chance? Why are the government departments so rigid? As it is too noisy to beat gongs and drums in residential area, they cannot find a place for practice and do not get any support from the District Offices. However, when they receive any overseas awards, Secretary TSANG Tak-sing will immediately write to congratulate them. While he writes to give them his congratulation, why does he not help them solve their practical problems?
The Secretary for Development has recently said that he is willing to help these dragon dance groups look for training venues. However, the premise is that the Home Affairs Bureau must give its consent. From this example, we can see that when we want to foster youth development, we must first have the consents of different bureaux. If they do not agree to help youngsters develop their talents, our current discussion will be in vain. It will not give any solution to problems like housing or education. Just now, I heard some colleagues ask: Why should we help young people start up a business if they are not competent to do so? In fact, the young members of this dragon dance group are starting their business with their craftsmanship. In today's Hong Kong, the crafts of making dragon dance costumes and firecrackers have gradually lost through the generations. Despite that, they still want to learn these crafts. When they can make money with these crafts and they want to make it their career, why should we not support them? A lot of similar cases are happening in our community every day. I hope that all the Directors of Bureaux, whether they are present at this meeting or not, can have a clear idea about how they should help our youth employ their talents in formal education or other areas. They should not let our young people receive awards overseas but penalty tickets in Hong Kong. This is far too ridiculous.
I so submit. Thank you, President.
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MR LEUNG YIU-CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, our motion debate today is on "Caring about the education, employment, housing, home acquisition and business start-up problems faced by young people". These are in fact most important problems faced by young people. For this reason, eight colleagues have proposed amendments, which are quite a large number. On top of this, one colleague has even proposed 22 measures in his amendment, more than the 10-odd measures in the original motion. As a matter of fact, we have raised a lot of proposals on how to improve the conditions of young people in many aspects.
Nevertheless, even if there are 22 measures, it does not mean that the problems faced by young people can all be covered or resolved. Even if all measures are in place, it does not mean all problems are resolved either. For example, the prospects of young people with specific disabilities are not mentioned in today's motion, if I am not wrong. This is a big issue which has not been tackled. What can young people with specific learning disabilities do? What can the disabled do? These are not mentioned in the motion. The problems faced by young people today are too numerous to name, even the 22 measures fail to solve the problems. What can be done then?
President, given the numerous problems, how can we resolve these problems? Certainly, the Government has put in efforts and has established the Commission on Youth to put forward views on the problems of young people for consideration by the Government. I recall that when Dr Philemon CHOI served as the Chairman, he had attempted to make a number of suggestions to the Government for consideration, but what is the major work undertaken by the Commission on Youth of the current term? Its major work is to assist young people to travel to the Mainland to broaden their horizons.
As regards the problems faced by young people, there is no co-ordinating body in the whole Hong Kong Government at present. The problems of education, employment, housing and business start-up, and so on, have been raised by many colleagues earlier, and stated in the original motion. These problems are currently handled by various government departments separately. No matter what actions have been taken, they are piecemeal in nature without overall consideration. If we genuinely want to help young people, I think the Youth Affairs Bureau should be established.
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The Youth Affairs Bureau can play a consolidating and co-ordinating role in encouraging various departments to deal with the problems together, rather than dealing in a fragmented and piecemeal manner with stopgap measures implemented as in the present case.
As a matter of fact, if we do not solve the problems faced by young people, it will bring significant impacts to society. The past few social upheavals, such as social unrest in 1985 and 1987, were caused by particular incidents due to the discontent of young people in society. In this regard, if the Government does not face up to these problems today, I will be very worried. In particular, the various policies introduced by the current-term Government have caused much social division, I am most worried that the situation will go worse in the future. I once told the Chief Executive LEUNG Chun-ying that we had been storing ammunition. What did I refer to? They are social bombs. If, one day, a problem or a fuse is triggered, I am most worried that the problems will get out of control.
The motion of Mr CHAN Hak-kan today is moved with good intentions on the governance of the Administration in the hope that the Government can put more efforts. However, I hope Mr CHAN Hak-kan would also listen to me and tell the Government that setting up the Youth Affairs Bureau is more desirable. Otherwise, how can young people handle the problems of education, employment, housing and business start-up? While the Housing Department can solve part of the problems, the Labour and Welfare Bureau is at a loss as to what to do, there is no co-ordination and ancillary support among them.
Just now a colleague said factory buildings could be turned into a creative environment for young people. This issue is related to housing, but if it is not handled by the Transport and Housing Bureau, not much can be done, while employment problems are to be handled by the Labour and Welfare Bureau, how should the two Bureaux work together? They may not co-ordinate well, right? If the Youth Affairs Bureau is established for co-ordination and consolidation, I think twice the result can be yielded with half the effort.
Apart from setting up the Youth Affairs Bureau, I think several issues are worth discussing among us, the problem of housing is an issue. Recently, the Government has mentioned time and again that they want to solve the problem of housing of the people in need. However, a group of young people with 2744 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 post-secondary qualification also apply for one-person public rental housing (PRH), affecting some people in need. I think the Secretary for Transport and Housing must listen to me, even though young people hold post-secondary qualification, the problem is they have no money to purchase a flat even after graduation, where can they live? They can only apply for PRH. It is not true that they are not in need of housing, at least there is such a need at present; as regards the housing need in future, it is a separate issue. Some say that young people may be able to afford private property in the future, yes, I agree to this view, but how can their imminent housing problems be solved? The problem is we cannot single them out, unless the private market can supply private residential units within their affordability.
The second issue is about education problem. With regard to education in Hong Kong, I can only say it is a complete flop. The prevailing education is also a total failure. No matter they are students in mainstream schools or students with disabilities, we fail to provide good ancillary support for them to grow up and learn in a good environment, resulting in the unwillingness of many Band 3 students or other students to go to school. What can this group of people do? In fact, they are not doing badly at school, the problem is we fail to provide them with a good environment to enrich and nurture them, or assist them to study in a proper way, or learn what they want to learn. The lack of these programmes and conditions has given rise to this result. In this connection, I think it is necessary to review the current education system.
President, I so submit.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, as regards to today's motion, after listening to the two Directors of Bureaux' responses to the speeches of the Members who moved the motion and the amendments, I think they have gone too far. The Government has no clue about the problems facing young people today. I wonder if the Directors of Bureaux have tried walking the paths that young people are now walking. Let me cite some examples.
In 2001, the price of a plate of baked pork chop rice sold at Café De Coral was $29 which rose to $36 in 2011, an increase of 24%; in 2001, the rent index was 93 and it rose to 137 in 2011, an increase of 47.3%; in 2001, the property price index was 77.2 and it rose to 187.3 in 2011, an increase of 142.6%. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2745
During the same period, the income of a man aged between 15 and 24 remained the same at $8,000; the income of a man aged between 25 and 34 rose from $12,500 to $13,000; while a man aged between 35 and 45 was slightly better off with their income rose from $15,000 to $16,000. The Government has no idea of their hardships. If young people like to live in Public Rental Housing (PRH) flats, they would be examined if they are mentally sound. However, with the flats catering for first time home buyers in Tuen Mun priced at $10,000 per square foot, for a person earning the average income of $11,000 per month, even if he does not eat, does not pay rent, or repay any grant and loan, neither does he give money to his parents, but he pays a mortgage of $400 a month, then from the day he starts working until his retires, he may not be able to pay off the mortgage of his flat. What kind of world is this?
The Government is heedless to these and gives us a bunch of statistics and talks about increasing the supply of flats, which is merely empty talk. No matter it is talking about the increase in the supply of PRH, HOS or private flats, the Government always gives the excuse that the last Government did not know the game; and then it will give us some other figures concerning the shortage of land and residential flats. The excuses are just the same. What kind of way out can young people have other than living in "sub-divided units" or even "sub-divided units in factory buildings"? Some young people tell us that they would rather resign or ask their boss not to increase their salary because they are applying for PRH flats. It has already come to such a state but the Government still talks about what it is now doing for young people and that it will construct youth hostels and increase the supply of PRH and HOS flats. These are all empty talks.
Before 1997, the annual supply of PRH flats were over 20 000 on average ― it has nothing to do with the housing production target of 85 000 units. After the HKSAR Government took over, only 4 700 PRH flats were completed in 2007 and 6 300 in 2010, and during that period, the population of Hong Kong increased from under 6 million to over 7 million. The Government is talking nonsense every day and gives no heed to the plight of the younger generation.
If one cannot afford to buy a flat, can they rent one? That is also impossible. How can they afford it? The rents now are completely out of their reach. That is why so many young people prefer to live with their parents. This has also given rise to many conflicts within the family. A certain parents 2746 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 cried when they complained to me that their son was over 30 years old, had worked for 10 years but had no hope of leaving their PRH flat. He had dated his girlfriend for over 12 years but did not dare to mention anything about marriage. Where could he find the means to do so? This Government on the one hand talks that the problems with our demographic structure ― Secretary, are you really day dreaming? What improvement measures can you offer to young people in Hong Kong to allow them to raise a family?
Second, it is the problem with education. Our education system is basically a big disaster and a sham. It started at the TUNG Chee-hwa era when Mr TUNG advocated creating more subsidized tertiary education places and he was clever and invented the associate degrees. Our office has employed many associate degree holders and all of them are heavily in debt when they start working. When they graduate, most of these students have debts over $100,000 and no education institutions are willing to accept them. Even if there are, those are profit-making institutions ― as everyone knows. Many such learning centres would offer articulation programmes if you can pay $100,000 a year. Even distance learning courses can do the same. If you pay them $200,000, they can give you a degree via various means. This gives rise to many private universities or local education institutions collaborating with some little-known universities ― perhaps Mr Christopher CHUNG are more familiar with the nature of these universities ― and if you pay them a certain sum of money, they will have a way to help you graduate. What government would think like that? Has the Government thought about how they can face such problems from their point of view?
Under the new academic structure, the Government only offers parents and students one pathway, which is the "3+3+4 academic structure". Under this "3+3+4 academic structure", after the "3+3" there must be "4" but where do they get the "4"? How much help has the Government provided them? Starting from senior secondary school, the Government should give them more counselling and tell them that there are sufficient resources that not only allow them to study in the university, but has the Government provided them with training on their vocation and skills?
When I heard the colleagues from the business sector speak just now, I really want to laugh. You tell them to start up a business? They cannot even repay their debts and have no place to live and you tell them to start a business? LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2747
Do you think that they are like some Members here who were born with a gold spoon in their mouth, or are the second or third generation of a rich family, and their father can give them thousands of millions of dollars to start up a business? You want them to engage in creative industries and that is the same as to tell them to dig their own grave and get more deeply in debt; and to tell them to borrow more money until they have enough even though they cannot repay their grant and loan. If this Government still refuses to come to its senses and continues to formulate policies of the same nature, our younger generation will have absolutely no way out.
I so submit, thank you, President.
DR JOSEPH LEE (in Cantonese): President, the motion subject today has a very extensive scope and there are 115 pages of amendments as I have just counted. I do not know if there will be another motion for debate in the future that has more amendments. In short, these amendments covered many issues.
I have views about some amendments but I am not going to comment further as many Members have talked about the education, employment and business start-up problems. Why do I think that the Government is responsible? If the Government implements the proposals set out in the 115 pages, in regard to the education, employment and business start-up problems, the Government is responsible for investing appropriate resources and creating conditions to give young people more education opportunities and increase their employment opportunities, as well as provide them with business start-up opportunities, thereby promoting upward social mobility.
This is not the most important point. More importantly, after the investment of resources by appropriate means, these young people will become our successors who can contribute to the continued prosperity and stability of Hong Kong. This is very important and I believe there will not be controversies over this point. Although we may have different views on some details, I believe the Government would in principle agree, even though we can estimate that the Government always tells us that certain things cannot be done. Now that there are 115 pages of amendments, I hope the Government would at least consider implementing dozens of pages of amendments, and this should not be too controversial.
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I personally think that the issue of housing and home acquisition is controversial and I have reservations about it. I have reservations because I have noticed that there are a number of amendments proposing that the Government should invest resources in the Home Starter Loan Scheme to help young people acquire their homes or provide public housing to young people so that they can live in a suitable environment. I wish to ask the Government if it intends to change the existing public housing policies. I have listened to the remarks made by some Members and I do not deny that young people have housing and home acquisition needs, but I wonder if the existing government policies should be changed so that public money will be used to subsidize young people in respect of housing and home acquisition.
Why should Government use public money to help young people only? Adults, women and elderly people also have such needs though young people are also on the Waiting List. According to my understanding, the public money spent on public housing is intended to subsidize the disadvantaged groups. Do young people belong to the disadvantaged groups? Opinions differ. I am not going to argue if one thinks that young fresh university graduates aged over 20 with monthly salaries of $12,000 who want to move out and live on their own but cannot afford to buy or rent flats belong to the disadvantaged groups. However, common sense tells us that public money spent on public housing should be used to subsidize the disadvantaged groups so that they can at least have suitable dwelling places. If this principle remains unchanged and the Government has invested resources in public housing so that young people can have a place to live or has even spent public money to help them buy flats, I absolutely have reservations.
I have a suggestion. Of course, we cannot deny the reality, that is, there are countless reasons why young people are in need of housing and home acquisition, can the Government consider issuing a consultation document, just to discuss this issue, so as to gauge the views of the general public in Hong Kong on this issue? If we also believe that the Government needs to use public money to subsidize housing for young people and help them acquire their own homes, this is a policy change. Nevertheless, we should bear in mind that my suggestion is that this is another new policy and the existing public housing resources should not be used for this purpose. If the Government decides to build more public housing and Home Ownership Scheme housing to enlarge the "revolving door", LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2749 its purpose is still to allow the disadvantaged groups as we understood or those in need to move to public rental housing flats as soon as possible.
I definitely have reservations about using public money to subsidize young people home acquisition, so I would not support the relevant proposals in today's original motion and other amendments.
Thank you, President.
MR TANG KA-PIU (in Cantonese): President, when I think about the problems faced by young people, my assistant comes to my mind. I have another public service as a District Council member and he is my assistant. He can consider himself having a rather comfortable life as he works and lives in the same district and he should be quite satisfied with that. He used to work in Tin Shui Wai and lived in Tung Chung. He has got a small pay rise according to his performance and hence he is quite satisfied with what he has.
So I encouraged him to pursue higher education and introduced to him a diploma programme that I took in the HKU School of Professional and Continuing Education 10 years ago. This programme, which was somewhat related to law, did not offer any professional qualifications and was purely for interest. I told him that the salary I got then was the same as his today and the tuition fee of the course was $13,000 a year. The total tuition fee then was just about $30,000 for the two-year programme as some courses were offered in summer. I checked the details on the Internet with him and was a little shocked. The $13,000 a year course that I took years ago has now raised its tuition fee to $18,000 and if you want to have more professional titles, that is, a slightly different certificate, you will have to pay $22,000.
We have advocated education development for years but I find that the industrialization of education has become a serious problem and now everything has turned into merchandise. I sympathize with my assistant who is six or seven years my junior that everything has become so difficult for his generation. Disregarding the increase in the price of baked pork chop rice, even if one wants to better equip themselves through further studies, the cost has also risen significantly. This is the problem that we are faced with today. Why are the people's wages not adjusted upward to keep abreast of the economic 2750 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 development? It is impossible for grass-roots families and it is even less likely for young people and South Asian youngsters.
Concerning today's motion debate, I wish to talk about it from my experience as someone working in Tung Chung, as Tung Chung is a new town with many young people. The situation is the same in the whole Great Northwest Area. The poorer areas in Hong Kong can be collectively called the Great Northwest, which includes Tin Shui Wai, Tuen Mun, Tung Chung and so on. These districts have the highest ratio of young people among the total population but ironically, the Hong Kong Centre for Youth Development, also known as the Youth Square, which was built with a large sum of public money, is in Chai Wan. Therefore, I am glad to see Mr YAU, Secretary for Transport and Housing, present here because at least there is one representative from the Transport and Housing Bureau listening to our views. I had conducted a very simple survey with my assistant in which we interviewed about 120 young students in Tung Chung when they returned home after school. We found that over 90% of the respondents had never heard of the Centre and the remaining 10% had visited the Centre because they had joined a coach tour organized by a certain organization for a "self-development" experience. When we asked them whether they would go to the Centre on their own if no one provided transportation for them, they all shook their heads as the transportation fees was too high.
I think it is necessary to address the problem of subsidized housing and hence I agree to what Dr Joseph LEE has just said. But I do not want to concentrate on talking about this problem. I want to talk about transportation fees because I come from Tung Chung and have more personal experience as a resident there. I grew up in Tuen Mun and Tung Chung is like another Tuen Mun. I fully understand that the high transportation fees indeed hinder young people from widening their horizons. First, as I have said just now, on both sides of the Victoria Harbour there are many large places and buildings worth seeing and visiting. We do not have to go so far as Chai Wan, even for the large lawn in West Kowloon, how many Tung Chung residents have been there? Not many, I am afraid. Conceptually it is a far-off place and the high transportation fees have deterred people from going out. As a result, residents of remote new towns gradually give up their chance of going out to widen their horizons because of the high transportation fees, and even if they have gone out, they do not feel they have benefited.
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Some teachers have told us that some units under the Liberal Studies involve visiting certain places in Hong Kong, such as observing the conservation work in Wan Chai. However, many students were unwilling to go because no one wanted to pay the transportation fees and in the end they sent one representative from each group to take pictures and then held group discussion. This is a practical problem that truly exists. Besides, under the new "3+3+4" senior secondary academic structure, students can study some practical subjects in their fifth year and take some one-day or half-day courses at the Vocational Training Centre every week and see if the industries related to the courses are suitable for them. For example, those who aspire to become a Chinese chef or wish to receive systematic training for western cuisine can go to study at the Chinese Cuisine Training Institute at Pok Fu Lam Road. However, as far as I know, many students give up this opportunity because their parents are unwilling to pay the transportation fees. The administration of some schools in Tung Chung have even told me, instead of offering many options, they simply choose the practical subjects offered by schools in Tsing Yi and Tsuen Wan to spare the students and parents the trouble of worrying about the transportation fees. How sad it is that because of the transportation fees, residents of small districts in Hong Kong have their development and chance to climb up the social ladder stifled. This is really pathetic.
Some service group conducted an on-street survey in the previous week and interviewed 225 young people between the age of 10 and 24. Among the respondents, 30% revealed that there were triad members among their peers and 20% said that they had participated in criminal activities such as fighting and vandalism. The reason is very simple. Tung Chung is a very small place and young people are crowded together. If they want to get out of that district, unless their parents have extra money, otherwise the only chance is to succumb to the lure of illegal elements. At first they would go to sing at karaoke bars and have fun and gradually they would participate in other illegal activities. We have asked many youngsters and they also know that these are traps but back to the old question, it involves the problem of transportation fees again. They are trapped in this community and if some friends offer to take them out and have fun, they will surely follow them. Therefore, this is a vicious cycle, and these are the problems with these small towns, no matter in term of the residents' skill development, participation in and learning about the social development of Hong Kong, as well as becoming an integral part of the entire community.
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We will discuss the fare adjustment mechanism of MTR next Wednesday. All people in Hong Kong, no matter they live in Chai Wan, Central or Tung Chung, should have the equal right to participate in social affairs, and that is the issue that we need to discuss. Otherwise, districts such as Tung Chung, Tin Shui Wai and Tuen Mun are like small special regions in Hong Kong and the grassroots in these regions have neither the interest nor the ability to join in the construction and development of the main stream society of Hong Kong. That is the biggest problem. I hope that Secretary YAU Shing-mu can bring this problem back to the Policy Bureau and discuss it with his colleagues. Thank you everyone.
MR LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the motion that Mr CHAN Hak-kan moves today is on "Caring about the education, employment, housing, home acquisition and business start-up problems faced by young people" and it is a good topic for discussion. It is just like a four-leaf clover representing the four major problems facing young people today.
I think that during the debate, our colleagues have all explicated well on these four topics and expressed their views to the Government. It is a shame that so far none of the Members from People Power have expressed their views on the problems faced by young people. As everyone knows that People Power is a political party that represents some young people's discontent and opinions towards society and I hope that they will express their views in this respect later on.
It can be easily seen that most young people are frustrated with the Government and the prevailing situations in society. The cause for this is the authorities' mishandling of these four major problems or some young people are unable to find gratification in those four aspects and thus harbour certain discontent.
The problems concerning education are especially prominent. I remember that during my election campaign, some students told me that they had started working, earning about $10,000 a month. However, as they have to go from Tin Shui Wai to work in the urban areas, their transport expenses almost amount to 20% of their income. If they want to further their studies in the hope of improving their living or climbing up the social ladder, they will encounter great LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2753 difficulties because of the high tuition fees. In the end, they are forced to give up. From this we can see that the amounts of grants and loans provided under the Government's existing student finance policies are far from adequate to meet the actual expenses in their everyday life.
Take the existing subsidized loan schemes as an example. If a student wishes to borrow money for further studies, the interest rate for the Non-means Tested Loan Scheme is the average prime rate of the bank minus 3.409% plus a risk-adjusted factor to off-set the risk of bad debts, and the loan bears interest while the student is still in school. The risk-adjusted factor is extremely unfair to students who repay their loans on time. Although the Government has promised to reduce the risk-adjusted factor to zero temporarily within three years, we think that the risk-adjusted factor included in the Non-means Tested Loan Scheme should be abolished altogether, and the interest rate should be capped at 2.5%. Besides, the interest should be calculated after the graduation of students. We believe that these improvement measures can reduce the students' burden of loan repayment and alleviate their psychological pressure after graduation.
It is a fact that many students are deeply troubled by the repayment arrangements under the various student finance schemes after their graduation. Earlier the Government has conducted a consultation exercise in respect of the reform of various student finance schemes. The Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong has put forward some suggestions. I hope that the Government will seriously consider the suggestions and adjust the relevant schemes accordingly.
President, to get married, have a career and raise a family are the normal stages that a person goes through in his life. But to many young people in Hong Kong, these stages are very remote. Young people who graduated years ago have great difficulties finding a living place and acquiring a home. The property prices in Hong Kong are out of tune with the market and home ownership has become an unattainable goal for many young people.
Nowadays, the rent of a small unit of 200 to 300 sq ft in the New Territories is nearly $7,000 and it is just unaffordable to a university graduate earning $10,000 a month. Even if the graduate has worked for a few years and has a pay rise, he still cannot afford the rent. If he lives with his parents, it may be a little crowded but at least he has a roof over his head. For those who cannot 2754 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 live with their parents and cannot afford the high rent, they are forced to rent some "coffin-sized units" or units in factory buildings. The environment of such units is far from decent, and even so, young people do not find the rents easily affordable.
The housing problem is also very important. Therefore, as there are already 190 000 applicants on the Waiting List of the Public Rental Housing (PRH), we hope that the Government will produce more PRH flats as soon as possible to allow young people to save some money after moving into PRH flats so that they can afford to purchase a flat, get married and lead a better life after some years.
President, the housing problem has direct impact on the social life of young people of the new generation. It may even affect their opportunities of raising a family and that is one of the main causes of the low birth rate in Hong Kong. Therefore, we think the most pressing work now is to resolve the housing problem. Besides, the Government should, on the premise of having an adequate supply of private housing, relaunch the Sandwich Class Housing Scheme and the Home Starter Loan Scheme.
President, I so submit.
DR LAM TAI-FAI (in Cantonese): President, the title of the motion that Mr CHAN Hak-kan moves today is "Caring about the education, employment, housing, home acquisition and business start-up problems faced by young people". I believe that Mr CHAN's motion targets at young people from the middle/lower social strata rather than those from the upper social strata. Am I correct? Because young people from the middle/lower strata and those from the upper social strata have different starting lines and they cannot be lumped together; besides, young people from the upper social strata are not for you to help, nor do they need your help.
President, the education, employment, home acquisition and business start-up problems faced by young people are inter-related and closely linked. They may not have absolute relation but they are absolutely related indirectly. Because of the time constraint today, I wish to concentrate on the two problems relating to their education and employment. President, as the old saying goes, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2755
"First, fate; second, luck; third, feng shui; forth, charitable acts; and fifth, studying." I believe this saying does apply to the young people from the middle/lower social strata in Hong Kong today because if these young people want to break from poverty and have a bright future, they must study hard to acquire more knowledge.
Hong Kong is a knowledge-based society. During their time at school, young people have to make good use of the opportunity and time to acquire as much knowledge as they can, they should also learn to cultivate a sense of civic mindedness and integrity, and also the sense of responsibility and credibility. However, the existing education of Hong Kong, being fraught with problems, has stifled the development of young people. For example, the shortage of university places has deprived many young people of the opportunity of entering the university even though they are qualified; that is to say they have the ideal but lack the chance; they have the zeal but without prospects. Besides, because of the Government's reluctance to provide a 15-year free education and implement small class teaching, many young people are unable to receive education of higher quality.
Because the Government has yet to effectively resolve the problems involving the associate degrees, many young people are faced with great obstacles in furthering their studies and seeking employment. Besides, because of the traditional Chinese thinking and the education authorities attaching great importance to the development of traditional grammar secondary schools, the need for the development of specialized schools has been neglected; as a result, many students who find it hard to adapt to the curricula of traditional grammar secondary schools cannot find programmes that suit their needs, thus unable to realize their potentials and may eventually drop out of school. These problems have long existed and are known by everyone, but after so many years the Government is still not able to come up with any good schemes and solutions to tackle the root cause of the problems, resulting in the continuous deterioration of the situation. Consequently, there is a great waste of talents and society cannot find good use of the talents nurtured by the system, resulting in a mismatch of resources and many young people become unemployed right after they graduate.
President, nowadays young people often encounter one problem when they seek for employment after graduation, which is, the types of jobs available in the market are few and very often they have nothing suitable to choose from. For 2756 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 example, someone who wishes to be engaged in industries will find that since the HKSAR Government has no policy on industry development and provides no support to the industry sector, there is no future in engaging in industries. It is like pouring a bucket of cold water over his aspiration. However, if he does not want to work in the industries such as finance or real estate to which the Government especially attaches importance, he has no choice but to change his career path in order to make a living.
There should not be the situation that a certain trade is especially good or especially bad, with a future or without a future, or with bright prospects or poor prospects in society. Everything is determined by how the Government lays out its development plan and what trades and industries that it intends to develop. If the Government wishes to develop the industries, it will have the way; if it wishes to dampen the development of the real estate industry, it can achieve it simply by introducing the BSD. Therefore, everything depends on the Government's attitude. It is very unfortunate that the Government has never laid out any economic development blueprint from a macro perspective in the past 15 years, nor provided any relevant timetable or roadmap, and the people have no idea how the SAR Government wishes to develop in future.
For example, during his term of office, Mr TUNG Chee-hwa advocated the developments in various directions, such as the cyberport, Chinese medicine port and business park. However, we know that he had the heart but not the ability to launch them and in the end many industries passed into oblivion. Then in Mr Donald TSANG's term, he was keen on making changes and put forward six priority industries including education, medical services, testing and certification, environmental, innovation and technology, as well as cultural and creative. But, as we all know that there was a lot of talk but no action was taken, and in the end nothing had been done.
The new Government has assumed office for a few months now but we have not seen its direction of development yet. Perhaps that is because it has lit too many fires and hence it is too busy taking care of the people's livelihood at the moment and has yet to propose any new economic development strategy. I wonder what the new Government wishes to see the future development in Hong Kong. However, if the public and young people are faced with a government that lacks a policy on sustainable development, and they do not know what industries the incumbent government attaches importance to and what industries LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2757 that the next government will tilt towards, young people will very often become guinea pigs. When they were at school, they heard Mr TUNG say that the Chinese medicine port had bright prospects and so they selected the Chinese medicine-related subjects, only to find that there was no more Chinese medicine port when they graduated. Then Mr Donald TSANG proposed to promote cultural industries but how could a student who studied Chinese medicine engage in cultural industries? Therefore, students often become guinea pigs and victims. As soon as they graduate, they become unemployed.
I would like to tell the Secretary for Labour and Welfare the reason for the high unemployment rate among young people. Apart from dropping out of school ― it is already very sad for young people to drop out of school ― they cannot find work because there are too few types of work available to them. The prospects of young people's development are obviously closely linked to the development policy of each Chief Executive. If they can rightly predict what policy the Chief Executive is keen on implementing and choose the relevant subjects, they may have a bright future; otherwise, once they choose the subjects that are not related to the policy of the Government, they may suffer from the dire consequences that their future will go down the drain anytime. For the young people who have placed the wrong bet, those who are weak-willed may become "non-engaged" while the stronger-willed will turn to speculate on stocks or property. This outcome is indeed very sad.
The new Government is preparing for the new policy address which will be presented soon. I hope that it will present to us a blueprint for the macro and long-term economic development, not just with a timetable but also a concrete policy; and the Government will do actual work and present to young people a picture with diversification and multiple choices which provides a promising future and also employment opportunities. As long as there are prospects and employment opportunities, I believe that young people will be able to strive for their own livelihood and work hard to achieve their goals even without the candies and money handed out by Government. Therefore, if the Government wishes to present to young people a promising future, it has to formulate a policy on sustainable development, especially a policy on the development of industries.
President, I so submit.
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MR MICHAEL TIEN (in Cantonese): President, I will speak slower today as I have not prepared a script for my speech. However, I will speak from my heart and share my views with you.
Mr CHAN Hak-kan's original motion mentions that, "in the face of …… the rapid development of neighbouring regions, Hong Kong young people …… face many challenges". In summing up the points made in Members' speeches, I can say that the crux of the problems faced by young people is, to put it simply, the lack of upward mobility opportunities. Colleagues have pointed out in their speeches that we should help young people overcome problems in various aspects, namely, education, housing, employment, the nature of work and the mismatch of young people's interest and skills. I wish to speak on these four aspects.
The first problem is education. In every community, there are students who score zero in examinations and there are also graduates with bachelor degrees and associate degrees. The problem does not lie in how high or low one's education level is ― there are bound to be people with higher education level and people with lower education level in a community ― what matters most is whether one can make a living when they start working after graduation. May I ask in a very money-minded manner, "Can one earn money with his ideal or academic studies?" Is there a market for them? This has always been a problem, and a very complicated one.
The second problem is housing. I started my own business after returning to Hong Kong upon graduation in the United States, and in the first 20 years I lived in rented flats. I invested all the money earned on developing my business and I did not feel an urgent need to acquire a home. Therefore, is the housing problem related to home acquisition, or is the problem related to higher rental increase than pay rise, or is it a problem relating to the inability to pay rent as a result of unemployment? After all, the housing problem lies in whether one can earn money in the market.
The third problem is employment. The low unemployment rate and high employment rate in Hong Kong today attract the envy of other countries. However, why are there so many problems concerning the people's upward mobility? As Dr KWOK Ka-ki has just said, although our unemployment rate is low, the increase in wages lags behind the increase in all other aspects. The core LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2759 problem is that there is a complete mismatch of what the young people have learned with the opportunities available in the employment market, and a mismatch of talents needed by certain types of work, which results in today's situation.
Therefore, I consider that the problem of young people's upward mobility ― disregarding the increase in rent, the difficulties in home acquisition and the employability of associate degree graduates ― is closely related to the economic development of the market, human resources training and education. However, what is the interactive relation of these three aspects with one another?
In my view, while there are always discussions on education and training in society, no follow-up actions have been taken. What industries can students engage in after graduation? Should education and training be promoted by the market alone? Should education and training be promoted by the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau alone to meet the needs of the market? Therefore, I always considered that there are serious problems with the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau and the long established "positive non-interventionism" in Hong Kong has also caused problems.
Fourth, how can the interest and skills of young people be linked to the market? We cannot rely on large corporations. If we rely on large corporations, there will be a preference towards a few industries. Large corporations do not conduct large scale recruitments but only create monopolies in the market. Therefore, the Government must proactively assist the development of micro enterprises. I define "micro enterprises" as enterprises employing fewer than five workers. The Government must promote market development through various means in various aspects and also provide assistance to micro enterprises in terms of their rent, capital, talent nurturing and on-the-job training.
How to promote market development? For example, my company employs many fashion designers. They are very talented and some of them also want to start up their own business. The problem faced by them is not the lack of workers required or high rents because some units in factory buildings only charge $6 or $7 per square foot. Their problem is that they cannot place orders. If they open a shop and want to produce only 10 pieces for each design, they cannot find a factory to take the orders. Hence, they cannot start up a business 2760 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 because factories in Shenzhen will only accept orders for at least a few hundred pieces.
What are their problems then? As Mr KWOK Wai-keung has said, in Hong Kong, we do not have workers for making paper patterns of garments and tailors who can design the paper patterns. Therefore, the authorities can also consider developing micro factories to attract these types of work back to Hong Kong. If there are such talents in the community, fashion designers can employ the workers they need, accept the orders to produce the clothing that they design and have the chance to start up their own business.
The creative industry mentioned by Mr Charles Peter MOK is another example. Young people nowadays like to make micro-movies. These movies are very creative and their costs are also very low. However, because the Government has not promoted the development of the market for these movies, advertisers are not able to contact these movie producers to give them the opportunity to develop their work.
In short, I believe that in order to promote the upward mobility of young people, economic development is the basis.
Thank you, President.
MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I have always been very concerned about the education, employment and vocational training problems faced by young people. In the past few decades, I have made immense efforts in vocational education and I am now the Chairman of the Advisory Board of the Hong Kong Design Institute and Chairman of the Steering Committee of the International Cuisine College under the Hong Kong Vocational Training Council (VTC).
We always say that young people are the future pillars of society. However, to help these young shoots grow up strongly, society has to put in resources to train and nurture them and to provide them with sufficient room for development and support. Therefore, the Government should formulate a comprehensive policy on the development of young people rather than a fragmented and superficial plan.
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Everyone has different abilities. To help young people better equip themselves, we think that it is necessary for the Government to provide them with more room for learning and expose them to more choices when they are at school.
To the young people who have the ability and wish to study in university, I think that the Government should provide opportunities for them; and to those who consider themselves not suitable to study in university, we should offer more courses suitable for them in other tertiary institutions, and together with the enhanced education and training policy, enrich their professional knowledge, and strengthen their employability. At the same time, the Government should also make a greater effort in nurturing the growth of young people and enhance their competitiveness in the neighbouring regions. To achieve these goals, I think that education must incorporate training and training must incorporate education.
During my term as Chairman of the VTC, the VTC has endeavoured to make progress in this direction. Our young people have different talents and we need to offer courses that interest them and suit their developments such as cooking, aviation services, beauty care, and comics and animation. We also offer courses of different levels to allow young people to see a clear progression ladder of their qualifications, that is, to progress from short courses, professional certificate courses to professional diploma courses. Many young people will have a better understanding of themselves and find their interest and direction. They may then enrol in undergraduate programmes and even continue in the direction of pursuing a master or doctoral degree. Therefore, we should support their development in education and career development.
Vocational training should hinge on the needs of the students and the industries, integrating theory and practice, to provide young people with adequate relevant knowledge and skills, as well as help them develop a positive attitude and values. The contents of training should adhere closely to the development of the industries. Trainings should not be provided by vocational training institutions alone but universities should also enhance their work in this respect in response to the manpower demand of the market, and at the same time equip students with the necessary knowledge and skills and promote life-long learning.
To further enhance young people's competitiveness, we must provide them with the chance to understand the situations outside Hong Kong and give them more opportunities to learn in overseas places and exchange knowledge with 2762 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 people there, and also invite experts abroad to participate in seminars, demonstrations and exhibitions in Hong Kong, so as to widen young people's horizons and global perspective.
The Government does not have a clear policy on vocational education and training at present. The tertiary institutions are eager to strive for more opportunities for students. I wish that the Government will give encouragement to these institutions in this respect and also provide them with substantial support. Many places in the world are starting to re-examine their own policies on education and training because similar to Hong Kong, these places are also faced with problems concerning the development of young people. I think the Government can make reference to the approach of Singapore to point out to society a clear direction, highly recognize the value of education and training, provide a worthy development pathway for young people and allocate sufficient resources so as to vigorously develop timely, suitable and quality vocational education and training to give young people the opportunity and pathway of diversified development.
President, in recent years many people of the younger generation wish to start up their own business but the studies previously conducted by a local university found that the rate of early-stage entrepreneurial activities in Hong Kong ranks rather low among many countries in the world. Mr Jeffery LAM and I have suggested to the Government to set up "young entrepreneur parks" to help young people tackle the two major problems including the lack of start-up funds, and the lack of business experience and accumulated commercial reputation.
As Mr Jeffery LAM has said just now, our proposed "young entrepreneur parks" not only provide young people with a place to work at a relatively low price but also hardware and resources needed for general business operation. They also provide information about industries, trading, financial, legal and accounting matters in a one-stop manner to help young and creative entrepreneurs to set up a company and an operation system needed by enterprises in general.
One of the essential elements of "young entrepreneur parks" is to team up some experts in the industrial and commercial sector and senior executives to provide a comprehensive and professional support network for young people who are inexperienced but have viable plans for starting up a business. It is hoped LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2763 that these predecessors can, through their experience and personal connections, guide these young people to a way suitable for them, give them guidance on business operation and share with them their experience. Young people can also build up their network of business connections so as to enhance their entrepreneurial capabilities and efficiency.
Many colleagues are concerned about encouraging young people to start up a business. I wish to share with you my feelings when I served as a juror for the HSBC Youth Business Award 2012 organized by the Hong Kong Federation of Youth Groups earlier.
In this competition, I saw many young people who had the ideal and determination. They had achieved a lot through their own efforts and skills. It convinced me that if we can provide proper guidance to young people, many can realize their ideals and continue with the entrepreneurial spirit of Hong Kong. A business cannot be operated without money and we hope that the Government would inject capital into the seed fund to set up the "young entrepreneur parks" to provide credit guarantees or even low interest loans for young people as their start up fund and give them a hand regarding their capital.
President, young people need opportunities and need even more room for development. I expect the Government to have a new mindset and support them and support the future development of Hong Kong with new methods.
I so submit.
MS STARRY LEE (in Cantonese): President, Hong Kong was once a place of many opportunities and mobility. For young people, even if they came from grass-roots families, they still could have a bright future if they were willing to endure hardship and work hard. But this was the traditional wisdom in the past. Nowadays, Hong Kong's economic development is rather mature, coupled with the globalization and economic restructuring, young people who want to climb up the social ladder and improve their living may not be able to do so by merely working hard.
At present, many young people in employment may face the following scenario: Being in mid-twenties and having worked for a few years, he hardly has 2764 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 a chance to get promotion as his superiors may be in their thirties, forties and fifties. The only way out is to find another job; otherwise he may not get a promotion until he is over 40 years of age. In the face of young people's helplessness towards their prospects, we just cannot pretend that the problem does not exist.
The motion moved by Mr CHAN Hak-kan today concerns the four problems faced by young peoples, namely, education, employment, home acquisition and business start-up. The motion covers a wide scope but there is only one fundamental principle, that is, how to ensure that young people have upward mobility. As long as young people can move upward, there will be comparatively fewer difficulties in the areas of education, employment, home acquisition and business start-up.
Mr CHAN has already stated the DAB's stance from a general perspective, and now I will concentrate on a few important elements concerning the creation of a community with opportunities for upward mobility.
Education is an important means which helps young people to move upward, as the saying goes, "All classes of people are of low prestige except the scholars". Parents and young people all understand this well and they spend a fortune on education every year. Children have to learn to play the piano, painting, sports, and so on at a very young age, in the hope of winning at the starting line.
As reported from the news reports, there is an astonishing number of self-financing associate degree programmes, undergraduate programmes and master degree programmes. The number of people enrolling in these programmes has been on the increase, indicating that people in Hong Kong are absolutely willing to invest in education. Parents may spend less on clothing and food, so as to support their children in completing the undergraduate programme or even master degree programme, hoping that their children will get ahead of others. However, does graduation from university guarantee a bright future and upward mobility in society? From the situation of society today, the answer may not be certain.
When a student graduates from a self-financing programme, he is already deep in debt, and coupled with the fact of slow pay rise, high property prices, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2765 difficulties in starting up a business, I can personally feel young people's frustration. From disappointment to despair to resentment, young people's grievances toward society start to accumulate from the very moment they graduate and will continue to grow like a snowball. The Government must expeditiously review its policies in various aspects to ensure that the policies can succeed in providing upward mobility opportunities in society. Otherwise, when people cannot move upward, when they remain stagnant or even move downward, their grievances will surely continue to accumulate. When the speed of upward mobility increases, their grievances will decrease.
Regarding the creation of upward mobility opportunities in society, we have to mention the existing 14 500 subsidized university places. This number has remained the same for many years, and it is only in this school year that it is slightly increased to 15 000. This is extremely undesirable as it cannot meet the demand for upward mobility in society. Apart from increasing the number of subsidized university places, the Government also needs to look squarely at the phenomenon of the polarization of subsidized tertiary education. Young people who develop early and have good academic results can enrol in government subsidized places. Not only can they receive free education, they also enjoy a relatively holistic university life and live in hostel. For students who develop later in life and have poorer academic results, they can only depend on themselves. They have to finish an associate degree programme first and then enrol in a self-financing undergraduate programme, and they have to pay the full tuition fees. These students are not entitled to participate in extra-curricular activities; neither can they live in hostel. Hence, basically they do not have a holistic university life.
Why does the Government not further subsidize students who enrol in self-financing programmes? Why is subsidized tertiary education being polarized? Under such arrangements, students either have full government subsidization or have to pay all the expenses themselves. The polarization of subsidization is not conducive to creating upward mobility in society and the Government cannot turn a blind eye. I hope that in this year's Policy Address, there will be measures for improving the situation of the polarization of subsidization.
Another prevailing problem in Hong Kong is the serious shortage of labour and the mismatch of jobs and job-seekers. Some jobs with good prospects have 2766 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 no applicants while some people cannot find jobs with good prospects. I have very often received complaints from different people on various occasions about the serious shortage of suitable manpower to fill the vacancies of many jobs of very good prospects. For example, some aircraft engineering companies have complained to me earlier about the great difficulties in recruiting engineering staff. These jobs have promising prospects and if the worker works hard, he has the chance to become an aircraft engineer. Another example is the nursing staff. The target of the Hospital Authority (HA) this year is to recruit 2 000 nurses, 10% of the staffing establishment, which is a record high. Although the work of a nurse is relatively demanding, it is a job with promising prospects. Furthermore, there is also a severe shortage of radiotherapists and the HA even has to conduct overseas recruitment and enhance the overseas training sponsorship scheme to increase the manpower supply.
To tackle the problem of mismatch of manpower resources, it is necessary to make students aware of this problem as early as possible. The authorities should introduce career planning to secondary students so that they can start preparing at an early stage. On the one hand, students can understand their interests and at the same time have a better grasp of the latest labour market conditions.
President, the last thing I have to say is that to create upward mobility opportunities in society, there must be a diversification of industries. The scarcity of land and sky-high rents in Hong Kong are the main causes that stifle the diversification of industries and the development of young people in Hong Kong. Wherever we go, we can hear people complaining about the short supply of land hampering their development. Therefore, if Hong Kong cannot make available more land to allow the development and enhancement of all industries, thereby creating more quality employment opportunities, people will only have a lesser chance to climb up the social ladder.
President, the policy on land not only hampers the diversification of industries but also dashes young people's hope of starting up a business; therefore (The buzzer sounded) …… President, I so submit.
DR FERNANDO CHEUNG (in Cantonese): President, today's motion is concerned with young people's education, employment and housing needs. On LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2767 the face of it, young people seem to have many problems. Take education as an example, many young people have problems in pursuing further studies. Not only the tuition fees of universities are getting higher and higher, the expenses for primary and secondary education are also escalating with an increasing number of Direct Subsidy Scheme (DSS) schools. Young university graduates find it very difficult to get a job, as few opportunities are available to them, and even if they can get a job, the income is pretty limited. It is getting harder and harder for them to buy their own homes, get married and lead a normal life. This has precisely reflected one problem with our entire society, in particular, the adults.
In fact, youth problems are caused by adults, who are greedy, selfish and short-sighted. The promotion of elitism throughout the entire education process has created many defeaters. The examination-oriented approach under the education system has eliminated many students, such that only 18% of the relevant age cohort can enrol in publicly-funded bachelor's degree programmes. We have been moving along the same line over the past two decades or so, with an obvious aim to uphold elitism. Nonetheless, we gradually find that this is not viable. In order to claim ourselves a knowledge-based economy and remain competitive, we must have more young people studying in universities. When the rest of the world are targeting to send 50% to 60% of their young people to pursue further studies in universities or post-secondary institutions, how can we still stick to the ratio of 18%? The only solution is to open up the market. And yet, this has financial implication as money is needed for universities to run degree programmes on a self-financing basis.
When young people graduate and seek employment in society, they will find that Hong Kong's industries are overly monotonous. Our economic locomotive is "speculation" and "gambling", implying the financial and property industries. Other sectors do not seem to have any prospect and the Government is not interested to promote their development. After all, quick money is all that matters and profits can be made easily within a short period of time. All these are attributable to the wrongdoings of adults.
The hurdles encountered by young people are actually erected by us. According to the statistics released by the Hong Kong Council of Social Service, 18% of our young people are living in poor families, which have greater difficulties in moving upward and shaking off poverty nowadays. Why would this happen? Because the cost of education is increasing, and even primary and 2768 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 secondary schools have to compete through marketization. Students studying in DSS schools can enjoy abundant resources, whereas those studying in subsidized school can only learn through large class teaching because the authorities are reluctant to implement small class teaching.
In case students have some special education needs, sorry, nobody will care about them. The authorities only promote integrated education to the neglect of special education in view of the high costs of special education and special schools. The Government will place this kind of students to mainstream schools by all means, and then watch them stew in their own juice. While proclaiming the participation of all schools under the school-based management initiative, they are practically left unsupervised. As a result, children with special education needs and specific learning difficulties, as well as those with other special education needs or disabilities are being bullied under this system. Such haphazard placements can never achieve good result.
Two years ago, on a rare occasion, a report on students with hearing impairment was published. The findings showed that in respect of three subjects, namely Chinese, English and Mathematics, about 30% to 40% of students with hearing impairment failed in at least one of them. Members can therefore imagine how serious the situation is. Nonetheless, throughout the years, these children had been left unattended. Poor students, on the other hand, can neither afford to buy reference books nor take part in extra-curricular activities like other students. Likewise, for ethnic minority students, despite years of efforts, the authorities have yet to devise a curriculum and an assessment standard for teaching Chinese as a second language, which may give them a chance to enter the universities even though the competitive environment is pretty unfair.
With regard to tertiary education, nowadays, many young people can only enrol in self-financing programmes offered by universities. Universities need not bother about printing bank notes as they can make a fortune simply by issuing certificates. This is a weird phenomenon, and it does nothing to help students with genuine education needs. Furthermore, most resources have been devoted to self-financing programmes. Take the number of universities students as an example. In some universities, the number of students taking self-financing programmes is higher than that of undergraduate students (students funded by the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2769
University Grants Committee). As for research postgraduate places, many of them are now taken up by Mainland students.
Therefore, the crux of the issue is marketization, under which everything is led by the market and economic factors have always been given top priority. But have we ever asked what young people want? They have not been given any choice when entering the employment market. Also, they cannot even sustain the basic living and must turn to their parents for help. Where can they lodge their complaints? There is no youth policy in Hong Kong. Have we ever asked young people what kind of life they wish to lead? Is money the only thing that counts, should economic factors always be given top priority? What we have been saying for so long is that young people have been treated as a money-making tool. The Commission on Youth claims that it assists in the formulation of youth policy, but are there any young people joining the commission? How many are there? In the recent Youth Summit, which is held every two years and attended by the Chief Executive and senior government officials, young people have given up their right to ask sharp questions. The entire society and the elite-led government have not shown the slightest care to young people, but merely treat them as tools. This is the crux of our current problem.
I so submit.
MR CHAN CHI-CHUEN (in Cantonese): President, the motion proposed by Mr CHAN Hak-kan today is concerned with the "four-pronged" problems encountered by young people, namely education, employment, housing and home acquisition as well as business start-up.
First of all, I would like to explain a very important concept here. "Housing" and "home acquisition" are completely different concepts. While housing is essential, home acquisition is not. And yet, people always mix them up and subconsciously instill the importance of home acquisition in young people, the middle-aged and the elderly. I think 80% to 90% of Hong Kong people accept the concept that the ultimate goal of housing is home acquisition, and the success or failure young people is often judged by a single criterion of whether or not they own any property. Judging from this, I must say that I am a loser as I do not own any property.
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The majority of young people in Hong Kong wish to acquire their own home. But is this wish generated from their need and desire, or is it the result of the brainstorming tactics of real estate developers or the media? We must therefore distinguish the concept of housing from home acquisition.
The Hong Kong Government has once introduced some measures to help young people acquire their own home, for example, the Home Starter Loan Scheme (the Scheme). While the policy intent of the Scheme was certainly good, such an external assistance (meaning the loan) had pushed a group of young people to enter the property market though they were not ready, had never thought of buying any property and could not afford to do so. When the property market is stable, home acquisition can be seen as an investment for the flat can be self-occupied. And yet, for young people who are not mentally and financially ready for home acquisition, if they have hastily bought a flat when the bubble of the property market is about to burst, they can only live in it for the rest of their life if property prices plunge as a result.
Furthermore, the Scheme has recorded serious bad debt. I must point out that I do not oppose young people setting home acquisition as their goal, but I strongly oppose that they see this as their only or ultimate goal. This is tantamount to blindly buying a flat without taking into consideration their condition and that of the market situation. The Government should provide quality public rental housing to tackle young people's housing problem in the first place, so as to avoid draining resources to lure a group of young people, who are not ready to buy their own flat, enter into the property market.
Education and employment problems cannot be discussed separately. Today, many Members pointed out in their speeches that more articulation pathways are available nowadays and various programmes ranging from foundation to tertiary programmes are offered. Nonetheless, all these simply serve the purpose of deferring young people entering the labour market, with a view to lowering the unemployment rate.
Let us look at some previous findings of the Government. According to the Third Quarter Economic Report 2012, the youth unemployment rate was 11.6%. As noted from the breakdown, the unemployment rate of young people aged 15 to 19 was 15.4%, which is higher than the 13.6% unemployment rate recorded between February and April 2012 for the same age group.
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Next, I will discuss the employment problem of young people. Paragraph (d) of the original motion proposes to "enhance the existing Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme". I certainly agree to raise the level of subsidies to attract more employees to participate, but do young people need programmes of this type? Actually, the current problem is how to help young people develop the habit of going to work. As far as I know, some youngsters do not have the habit of going to work and some resigned shortly after they were employed. We have to lure or even beg youngsters to attend job interviews.
When I was working at the radio station, I had met and interviewed trainees of the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme. Young people who live in remote areas are reluctant to spend money on travelling, as the travelling expense together with meal cost may add up to an amount equivalent to one or two days of his expenditure. The authorities have only provided transport subsidies for the working people, but not the job-seekers. As far as I understand, some CSSA recipients have told their children that it would be better for them to sleep at home than look for a job, because if they fail in the job interview, the transport expense would be wasted.
I therefore suggest the Government to provide an interview subsidy for young job-seekers as we really have to entice young people of today into looking for jobs. Despite the various subsidy schemes implemented by the authorities, such schemes would be futile if young people refuse to take the initiative to look for jobs, or if they find that the cost of seeking job is higher than sleeping at home. Hence, even if the pay is good and employers are nice, the schemes would still be futile.
Another problem is that education has seriously detached from the labour market ― many colleagues have already spoken on this point ― which has resulted in the youth unemployment problem. Given that Hong Kong is an international financial centre, grass-roots workers who are not engaging in the financial industries are unable to share the fruit of economic prosperity. Hence, nowadays, the majority of young people have joined the financial and property sectors. The entry requirement of these sectors is not high and the return is hefty.
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According to a recent news report, some young people engaging in the property sector were involved in a fight for clients. If Members visit a first-sale site nowadays, they may notice that these sites are packed with real estate agents, who are mostly young people. We often criticize that the monotonous local industries have narrowed down the outlet of young people, who have now placed money above everything else. In the past, students preferred to study commerce, but nowadays the majority of young people choose to engage in industries involving speculative activities and offering commissions.
While diversification of industries is certainly a solution, it has turned out to be an empty slogan. I think that diversification of industries is no easy task for the SAR Government.
I so submit.
MR RONNY TONG (in Cantonese): President, in fact, the motion proposed by Mr CHAN Hak-kan is discussed almost every year. I also notice that the various proposals put forward by him this time have actually been discussed in previous years and were accepted by the majority of Members. I was, however, taken aback by some of the amendments, such as those proposed by Mr KWOK Wai-keung and Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, as the numerous proposals have added up to a total of 31 paragraphs. I think that this is a new record. President, is it really necessary for us to discuss so many detailed proposals? I do not think so. All in all, I think there are three things which we must pay attention to, and the Legislative Council may have divergent views on them.
President, I notice that just now many Members have expressed different views. For example, some colleagues doubted if some of the proposals (the 30-odd proposals) are sugar-coated poison and helping young people is like handing out candies. Some also said that young people do not belong to the disadvantaged group, so there is no need to help them. Of course, other colleagues have quoted some figures ― Mr Jeffrey LAM is not present at the moment, but he had quoted many figures when he spoke earlier, saying that there were billions of dollars of bad debts which could not be recovered and helping young people is tantamount to causing harm to them.
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President, the only thing which warrants discussion is whether we should first arrive at a common stand. President, I do have a different view. I opine that offering help to young people is like making an investment for the community. Whether our community will be successful, how it is going to develop and whether it will further evolve into a democratic society which respects social justice, depend very much on how much people of this generation is willing to invest.
Of course, President, I absolutely agree with what Mr CHAN Chi-chuen said just now. Will young people be unable to survive or attain personal achievement if we do not spend a cent on them? President, I do not think so. But if we invest for the future of the community, I trust that the future of Hong Kong will have greater certainty and more hopes than without the investment. Therefore, in respect of the standpoint, I cannot agree with some colleagues' remarks that we should not hand out candies to young people as they do not belong to the disadvantaged group, or it is harmful to offer help to them as the Government will incur heavy public spending. I do not share these views.
President, if we retain the good qualities of those 30-odd paragraphs of proposals while dispensing with those undesirables, probably only three approaches will be left behind. Firstly, how can we equip our young people so that they can expeditiously make contributions once they enter into society? Secondly, shall we give them a hand so that once they enter into society, they can easily find a way out and expeditiously make contribution? Thirdly, shall we allow them to give full play to their strengths when they enter into society, so that they can concentrate on making contributions to society, without having to worry if they can make ends meet, have a place to sleep or get married? Therefore, looking from these three perspectives, I am perfectly okay with most of those 30-odd detailed proposals. It is, however, too harsh for colleagues to propose the deletion of this and that.
I would like to discuss, in particular, how we should equip our young people. I very much agree with a number of Members, including Mr IP Kin-yuen who has just spoken, that the admission rate of universities is extremely low, and this will have serious adverse effects on the future development of our society. The regression may not be noticeable at once, but we will certainly see the impact after a decade or two.
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President, with regard to university education, the children of many people, including mine, have already tasted the bitter fruit. Although many students have attained the minimum requirement for university admission, they were not admitted. Those from well-off families may study abroad, but it does not mean that the less well-off ones cannot receive university education. President, there is a risk that those who study abroad may not return to Hong Kong. I wonder if other senior government officials have this experience: After marrying a foreign woman or man, they will never come back. Although we have invested millions of dollars on them, the investment is later proved futile and ultimately benefits other communities instead.
Our society needs more quality and knowledgeable young people. The Government will doom to failure if it refuses to do anything but adopts a short-sighted policy, and prefers receiving Renminbi than nurturing local young people. So long as the problem is not addressed, President, it would be meaningless to discuss any of those 30-odd paragraphs of proposals.
Thank you, President.
MR LEUNG KWOK-HUNG (in Cantonese): President, Mr CHAN Hak-kan is no doubt a young man with high ambitions and is our role model. Shortly after he had joined the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB), he became the Special Assistant in the Chief Executive's Office and earned a monthly income of $100,000. It can be said that he is a very outstanding young man. What is more, he earned millions of dollars from speculating on shops. He is therefore a successful role model of our young people.
With regard to his career, he has joined what the President said …… He should have married. Is he married? In a video clip, the President said, "It is good for the two of you to get married as you will become more mature and conservative, and will therefore render support to the pro-establishment camp." Of course, the President is good at ridiculing himself, which is so adorable. And yet, this brings out a problem and Mr CHAN Hak-kan is the typical example. We can see that the point is not what you know, but who you know; not what you can do, but who is your supervisor; not what skill you possess, but whether you have the skill to speculate on shops. This is ridiculous.
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I remember that when I ran in the Legislative Council Election in 2008, Mr CHAN Hak-kan suggested in his election platform that funding should be provided to young people for home acquisition and the amount proposed was $600,000. This is a matter concerning the vision of the world. After all, it is important for young people to speculate and speculate again and again.
Perhaps allow me to read out the words of another young man with vision. He said, "What is the biggest problem of the world? Food is the biggest problem. What is the most powerful force? The combined strength of people is the most powerful force. In respect of religion, religious reforms have brought about religious freedom. In respect of literature, aristocrat literature, classical literature and rigid literature were changed into common literature, modern literature and living literature. In respect of politics, dictatorship was turned into representative politics, and restricted elections were turned into unrestricted elections. In respect of society, the dark society dictated by the minority class was turned into a bright society where people can freely develop. In respect of education, there was the popularization of education. In respect of the economy, there was the equalitarianism of labour produce." Later, this man of vision went further to say …… not in the same article, but in "The May 13 Hunger Strike Declaration", which has made many people join the hunger strike and cry, that "China is our Motherland. We are the people. The government should be our government. Who should speak out, if we should not? Who should act, if we should not?" This man with vision is MAO Zedong, who is respected by many as the national father, and the abovementioned are his two world visions.
Therefore, MAO Zedong has also mentioned young people. President, I believe you also know this song, "The world is yours, as well as ours, but in the last analysis, it is yours. You young people, full of vigor and vitality, are in the bloom of life, like the sun at eight or nine in the morning. Our hope is placed on you. The world belongs to you. China's future belongs to you."1 Today, it is ours.
I have seen an old man who had listened to MAO Zedong's speech back then. This old man told me that, in fact, MAO had yet to finish his speech. MAO went on to say that, "We elders are like the setting sun and are no longer
1
You can see how pitiable young people in China are, as they can be shaped to other people's liking. After MAO Zedong made that remark, he launched the Down to the Countryside Movement to "修 理" (sau1 lei5) (meaning "to fix") the world by asking the young red guards to criticize and denounce his political enemies. When his political enemies struggled among themselves, he asked the young people to "修 理" the world. The term "修 理" here has a different meaning from our common usage, and does not carry the meaning of "struggling against". Rather, it means fixing the land ― digging up the land. This is completely different from what the Americans used to say to cheat their children, and that is, one could ultimately reach China by keep on digging a hole in the ground. How did the Americans teach their children? They taught them to go to China by digging a hole in the ground. This is true. I know a number of foreign children ― they have now grown up ― they had actually dug a hole in the ground in order to come to China because it was their wish to study Chinese in China after they grew up, as well as to help the Chinese people by taking part in the opposition movement in Taiwan.
What is the point of saying all these? It seems that I have digressed from the topic, but the reason is actually very simple. It is too ridiculous for a corrupt system to show concern to young people for it would only ruin them, promote political inequality and wealth means power. Such a system should not claim to help young people. The education system, which binds young people, practises indoctrination and makes elimination the goal. It is a system which produces defeaters and cut down on education resources, and ensures that only few people can have the opportunity to receive education and emerge as the superior ones. Worse still, it is a system which matches with dictatorship and monopolistic capitalism.
President, this topic has been discussed for quite some time. I remember Michael SUEN once said that the system was "functioning effectively", and it is still working well. Back then, I chided him rudely using unparliamentary language, asking "Where did the children of fellow senior government officials receive their secondary education?" None of them have chosen the local system.
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Why should young people need special protection? The rights to housing and home acquisition are not the same. All you need to do is to build more flats, such that when young people need a place to live, they can simply rent a flat, move into public rental housing flat or any other flats not built by real estate developers under monopolized development and costing some $10,000 per square foot. Am I right?
Another point is, in order to provide a comprehensive system of social security, employment protection and training subsidy, wages must be increased. Only by so doing can a comprehensive protection system be implemented, which requires contribution from wage earners. The minimum wage of $28 is indeed a torture to young people and workers in Hong Kong. It is an evil system designed to torture young people. The extended working hours is another evil system. Who needs your help? Simply return the rights to us as soon as possible! Simply return the due basic human rights and those enshrined in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights to us! Who want your alms?
MR CHUNG KWOK-PAN (in Cantonese): President, many deep-rooted conflicts have emerged in our society in recent years, and one of them is the youth problem. Young people fail to see any future and worry that they do not have a chance to move upward. To the younger generation, "youth" is nothing easy for they have encountered difficulties in education, employment, housing and career development. It is even more difficult for them to get married and raise children. As a result, they are subject to immense pressure. No wonder young people in Hong Kong have many grievances.
Undeniably, young people of this generation do not have as many opportunities as the previous generation. In my view, one of the major reasons is the imbalanced economic structure in Hong Kong. Hong Kong people used to say, "Although I do not have high academic qualification, I can still achieve eventual success through hard work". However, in recent years, Hong Kong's overall economy has merely focused on the financial and property sectors, while other industries remain sluggish. To help young people move up the social ladder, it is most important to make the "pie" bigger so that more industries can flourish, with a view to providing more opportunities for young people to realize their potentials.
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Although the last-term Government proposed to develop the six industries where Hong Kong enjoys clear advantages, little had been done. I hope that the current-term Government will honour its promise by expeditiously re-formulating policies on industries and promoting the development of emerging industries. This will not only assist Hong Kong's long-term economic development, but will also provide an opportunity for young people to move upward. Many creative industries, especially the fashion business, are actually very suitable for the creative youngsters. If these industries can be properly developed, perhaps one day the younger generation will say words such as, "Hong Kong's streets are paved with gold and people can always achieve success by simply using their brains".
And yet, while we absolutely agree that we should help young people face various problems, it does not mean that welfare support will be provided at all costs regardless of the consequences. Members should understand that excessive welfare support will result in over-reliance and probably inclination to populism. Neither can help resolve the problem. What is more, the ageing problem in Hong Kong is aggravating and waves of retirement will be witnessed in the next 10 to 20 years. It is possible that young people will have a lot more opportunities to move upward by then. If young people become over-reliant and have not well prepared themselves, they will miss this golden opportunity. We must not forget that "opportunities are only for those who are prepared".
In formulating policies to help the young people, has the Government taken into consideration the ageing population and the need for our society to restructure? Will the introduction of too many welfare initiatives result in over-reliance of young people, such that they fail to get hold of the major social development? Therefore, the Government must be cautious and strike a balance. In fact, in the face of the development of a knowledge-based economy, everyone including young people should pursue further studies so as to maintain a high standard of competitiveness. Hence, the Government should introduce more initiatives to encourage members of the public, especially young people, to pursue further studies.
Some Members proposed to explore the enactment of legislation to provide all working people with a three-day paid training leave each year. This is, however, tantamount to increasing the number of statutory holidays. Granting an additional three-day leave for the working people will have a direct impact on LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2779
Hong Kong's workforce. We should therefore examine and consider with great care. Furthermore, training takes long time and a mere three-day leave does not give much specific meaning and help. The Liberal Party, however, considers that the Government should review and enhance the various plans to encourage people to pursue further studies. As my partisan Mr Frankie YICK has said earlier, it is desirable to make an injection of $1.5 billion into the Continuing Education Fund and raise the limit of subsidy to $20,000 per applicant, thereby encouraging young people to continuously equip themselves and keep abreast of times, with a view to getting ready for any future changes in the community and population structure.
The Liberal Party has all along called on the Administration to proactively increase university places, and hoped that it could further enhance the development of private universities by providing administrative conveniences in addition to granting land for the construction of school campuses. Given that the measures proposed in the original motion are basically consistent with those pursued by us throughout the years, the Liberal Party will therefore support the original motion.
Thank you, President, I so submit.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
MR ALBERT CHAN (in Cantonese): President, "Long Hair" has just quoted the remarks of MAO Zedong. Speaking of young people, both MAO Zedong and Vladimir LENIN are well-known for their understanding of young people and their ability to mobilize and deploy them. Is MAO Zedong's Cultural Revolution well known for China's regression for dozens of years? In fact, there is also a famous remark from Vladimir LENIN: "Give me just one generation of youth, and I will transform the world". It means that he simply requires one generation of youth to transform the world. The Communist Party of China is most apt at deploying young people. As early as 90 years ago, Vladimir LENIN recognized this relationship and feature.
I believe young people like Mr CHAN Hak-kan are very valuable in the eyes of the Communist Party of China. Among the many political 2780 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 organizations, the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong (DAB) has, under the leadership of Hong Kong communists, been offered assistance by party organization in its development. By means of various carrot and stick tactics, it has enticed young people in Hong Kong into supporting Hong Kong communists ruling Hong Kong, which turned out to be a great success. For many young professionals, so long as they support the Communist and are willing to support the Government, their business will certainly flourish, while those in support of democracy will have few clients. It is the same for those working in Chinese-funded organizations. Those who are young and support the Communist with enthusiasm will have better advancement opportunities. At the time of voting, they must support specific pro-Communist organizations.
In view of the present situation in Hong Kong, "Long Hair" has just pointed out one feature, that is, a small group of young people who change course for convenience can gain benefits. Young people are now in grave hardship, I dare say that their suffering is the gravest ever since the inception of Hong Kong ― except during the times of occupation or war. Certainly young people have difficulties in respect of housing, the press has reported cases of young professionals living in "sub-divided units" and the waiting time for public rental housing (PRH) is long. Under the PRH policy, a 24-year-old will only have 18 points, while a 57-year-old will have 117 points. Under the current points system, one-person household has to get some 160 points for allocation of PRH units. For young people who are in their twenties, it is likely that they may not be allocated a PRH unit even when they are in their forties.
Regarding the problem of housing, if people want to make money for down payment, either they know the rich and powerful, or they must be as smart and wise as Mr CHAN Hak-kan in property speculation and make money for down payment to purchase a flat, otherwise they will continue to live in "sub-divided units". In addition, the income of the general public has been dropping. The median income of university graduates was $8,000 in 2002, 10 years later in 2012, there was only an increase of 37% to $11,000, but rent payment rose from $104 in 2002 to $194 in 2012, at an increase rate of 86%, more than double of the increase rate of income.
The biggest problem faced by young people in Hong Kong is their prospect, and one of the major reasons is the policy blunders of the Government, which I have repeatedly criticized in this Chamber. In the time of TUNG Chee-hwa, the harm arising from Mr Anthony LEUNG's mindset had almost LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2781 devastated and rooted out industries in Hong Kong through advocating tourism and finance alone, in complete disregard of the industrial base to which Hong Kong owed its success. Accordingly, to open up better prospects for young people, the industrial base of Hong Kong must be rebuilt.
I am not asking the Government to redevelop "plastic flower" products, the industrial products manufactured by low-cost labour in the past; neither am I asking the Government to set up electroplating factories or polluting trades. The Government should focus on promoting and redeveloping high value-added industries, including high value-added fashion, watches and accessories made in Hong Kong, not those made in China for sale in Hong Kong; it should focus on developing Hong Kong brand names with design and production conducted in Hong Kong.
The food trade is also a direction for development. Hong Kong can set up food processing factories. It is always said that the Mainland is the hinterland and a big market, foodstuff made in Hong Kong must sell well in the Mainland. In addition, pharmaceutical products and medical supplies may also be produced in Hong Kong, the sale of simple medical supplies such as cotton pads and cotton swabs to Mainland hospitals and medical institutions can be a big business. A lot of trades can promote Hong Kong brands to the world with design and set-up in Hong Kong. However, our officials do nothing but flatter and our political parties are eager to "lick the boots" and steer according to the wind, without the courage to challenge the policy blunders of the Government.
Two to three years earlier, when Dr LAM Tai-fai was just elected, he invited me for a meal at the Federation of Hong Kong Industries, and I had put forward my views on that occasion. I said we had repeated such views for years. Sitting together with us, a lot of representatives of the industrial constituency were surprised that we had put forward such views and asked why the Government had not listened to us. I told them, given that the Government did not listen to us, we had to make a scene by throwing bananas and attacking the Government.
In this connection, I urge the industrial and commercial trades to join us in protesting against and attacking this unjust Government because it pays no regard to the prospects and future of young people. I therefore appeal to friends of the industrial and commercial trades to join in the protests!
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PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
MR ALAN LEONG (in Cantonese): President, young people are the future of Hong Kong and the State, but these future masters turn out to be in great poverty. The problem of youth poverty in Hong Kong has been aggravating over the past 10 years. I have some figures in hand. According to the 2001 report of the Hong Kong Council of Social Service, there was a population of 130 000 young people in poverty, which increased to 170 000 in 2010 after 10 years, with an increase in poverty rate to almost 20%, which means one in every five young people aged 15 to 24 was living in poverty.
President, please look at another set of figures. In the past 10 years, the unemployment rate of young people aged 15 to 19 has been far higher than the overall unemployment rate in Hong Kong. In 2010, youth unemployment rate was 20.8%, more than five times of the overall unemployment rate of 4.4%. In other words, one in every five young people was unemployed.
President, these figures are worrying. I believe there may be quite a lot of overlaps in the figures of poverty and unemployment, but these poor and unemployed young people have to earn a living to support their family and get their family out of poverty on the one hand, and they are distressed by the problem of unemployment on the other hand, which place them in great hardship.
Even middle-class young people also come under pressure. Many students told me they do not to expect to have a bright future after admission to university, and their family need not worry. As his family holds a property and their socio-economic conditions are not too bad, he is not eligible to apply for the loan scheme for university students. I learn that some students have asked their parents to use their properties as collateral to borrow over $100,000 for them to complete university studies. President, such cases are numerous, telling us the plight of young people in Hong Kong.
President, the problem of housing is another predicament. Many young people apply for public rental housing (PRH) once they reach the age of 18. The number of non-elderly applicants on the Waiting List for PRH exceeds 20 000, and they are students living with their family members. I believe these young people do not wish to live in subsidized housing for their whole life, but they LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2783 have few choices because they cannot afford private housing nor apply for Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats. At present, it is not easy to purchase second-hand HOS flats as the prices of such HOS flats have surged, following the initiative of the Chief Executive LEUNG Chun-ying. In this connection, it is not surprising at all that some "post-80s" live in "sub-divided units".
President, Mr LEUNG Chun-ying stated in his manifesto that he would review the public rental housing allocation policy to encourage young and elderly people to live with their families. Yet, encouragement is not the right word, which implies that living with their families is not good. I am afraid they have no choice but to live with their families now. Youth hostels can only meet the immediate need of a minority of people, but how about five years later? This cannot solve their housing problem in the end.
In this regard, the Civic Party puts forward the proposals of raising the existing income limits for PRH applicants and rolling out HOS "flats with limited floor areas" to provide young people with home acquisition opportunities. Some measures on stamp duty can also be introduced to reduce tax payment to assist young people in home acquisition.
President, what young people need is the opportunities for upward mobility. I recalled that when I was in secondary school, two thirds of my classmates either lived in resettlement estates or low-cost housing estates, but many of them are now doctors, lawyers and other professionals. The opportunities for upward mobility are crucial. However, as we can see, the starting point at present is quite different. Children from well-off families may go to the United Kingdom for study tours during summer vacation when they are in Primary Three, but for those from families living in Tung Chung and Tin Shui Wai, I have come across quite a number of cases where Secondary Six students have never been to the Hong Kong Cultural Centre. In view of this, President, the Civic Party has been striving for years for an increase in subsidized places and reform of the loan scheme for post-secondary students. We hope the Secretary can also make response in this regard.
President, I must make some fair comments for a group of members from the Young Civics of the Civic Party. Dr Kenneth CHAN proposed in his amendment to convene youth summits annually. The Youth Summit was held last Sunday, but the organizing body, the Commission on Youth chaired by Mr 2784 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Bunny CHAN had not conducted adequate publicity. Our Young Civics only learnt about the event on that day, some time before the commencement of the Summit, and when they arrived at the venue, they failed to make registration and enter the meeting place. They could only stand dully at the entrance for four hours on that day, requesting for entry but in vain. The social participation of young people is essential. If LEUNG Chun-ying's Government genuinely hoped to listen to the voices of young people, it should not have turned them away.
I so submit.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(Mr WONG Yuk-man stood up to speak without first pressing the "Request to speak" button)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): If any Member wishes to speak, please press the "Request to speak" button first.
MR WONG YUK-MAN (in Cantonese): I am sorry, I spent seven days in court and I am muddled.
President, Mr CHAN Hak-kan raised various proposals to the Government in support of young people in four aspects namely education, employment, housing and business start-up. I must point out that the philosophy underlying these proposals is imbued with the same spirit as the bureaucratic mindset of the authoritative SAR Government. The economic and social policies of the Government are lopsided towards large consortia, and with the tightening of the civil rights of Hong Kong and the gradual disappearance of freedom of speech and assembly, a growing number of the public who care about the society take to the streets, among them are young people in their twenties and even in their teens. Social conflicts are intense. The pro-establishment media and political parties, as well as the SAR Government insisted that young people's grievances have accumulated due to the lack of opportunities for upward mobility, without paying regard to their quest for social justice. Accordingly, a group of feverish communists organizations and some simple-minded officials have arranged LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2785 low-cost exchange tours to the Mainland, and with the introduction of the "brainwashing" national education subject and vulgar recreational and sports activities, they try to guide young people since childhood to accept the pro-establishment camp and turn them into political and economic slaves. The youth problem is originated from "developer hegemony" and unjust political structure.
Most post-secondary graduates are badly off and heavily in debt. The Student Financial Assistance Agency has attempted to tighten the loan scheme on many occasions. All accountability officials of the SAR have sent their children to study abroad without commitment to the education policies they have formulated. The education policy that the Government is most earnest and vigorous in implementation is "brainwashing" national education. Thanks to the efforts of the Scholarism in initiating campaigns to alert the public, at least the definite implementation of national education has become an "undecided" issue. The SAR Government and the pro-establishment camp thought that they were misled or encouraged by the opposition force, while Executive Council Member Mr CHEUNG Chi-kong had even talked nonsense and openly questioned the motive and source of funding of the Scholarism. In view of this, the ideology of institutions in Hong Kong does not allow young people to have independent thinking and development.
In Hong Kong, there are quite a lot of elderly and middle-aged people in poverty. When the nest is overturned, can eggs stay unbroken? Young people are the victims of social injustice. Here, I think of the clichés many Members have mentioned just now: "mothers are women", "young people are the future pillars of society", "children are the future masters of our country" and "most mothers are good women". Members, young people are the victims of social injustice. Hong Kong is restricted and fettered by the bureaucratic Government and developer hegemony. As the saying of Jean-Jacque ROUSSEAU, French political philosopher goes: "Man was born free, and he is everywhere in chains". Young people in Hong Kong are in chains in respect of education, employment, housing and business start-up.
Apart from the above tangible chains, the institutions in Hong Kong have also instilled many intangible chains of ideology in young people. Young people participate in protests to raise social problems and strive for social justice, yet they have been censured by the pro-establishment camp or conservative 2786 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 members of the public for "being immature", "having no means of living" and "causing damages", and so on. Obviously, they do not know that these young people in fact "negate the positive". Here, I wish to quote an article I wrote 12 years ago entitled "Negating the positive" in which it reads: "Our knowledge and rationality always enable us to find out what is not wanted, instead of what we want."
"In free thinking, there is a concept of 'negating the positive'. What is meant by 'negating the positive'? For example, we want to be healthy, but health is a concept that cannot be expressed clearly in words. It cannot be said that health is defined as sleeping four hours a day without feeling tired …… in replacing this explanation in a positive, optimistic and affirmative tone, we can say: health is not being sick. This is an explanation in an opposing, pessimistic and negative tone."
"In relation to political, economic and social problems, what we know and understand is less than our knowledge of human body and ourselves, therefore we will not be a prophet of these problems. Free thinkers will not be interested in all principles, systems and religions consciously or unconsciously, what they have is a type of principle that is anti-principle, a system that is anti-system and a religion that is anti-religion."
In this regard, under the unjust political system, some young people of today know how to negate the positive and the practice of free thinking, but it is a pity that they are the victims of social injustice under this social ambience. This is the greatest problem faced by young people, not the tangible chains of education, employment, business start-up and housing. The impacts of intangible chains on young people are the greatest.
President, we do not wish to drive young people to a dead end. The objective environment of the whole society provides no room for them to develop their independent characters, or to allow them to give due concern to social affairs. People used to think from a utilitarianism or functionality perspective, things they care about are: do they have a flat, do they have cars, can they make money? We should nurture young people or the ambience of the whole society should enable young people to think systematically; young people should learn to talk about ideals and principles, they should not resort to unscrupulous means.
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(THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY, MR ANDREW LEUNG, took the Chair)
Regarding the motion debate today, it has also been moved in the past, indicating that while some Members are concerned with young people, some are concerned with women and some showed their concern about workers some time ago. What is the key issue? Members, the key issue lies in the system. The earlier speech of "Long Hair" is indeed inspirational. Everyone says: "young people are the future pillars of society", but what does it mean? Worse still, a majority of people will then become "lame", how many pillars can there be?
I so submit.
MR ABRAHAM SHEK: Deputy President, our youths need no charity, nor do they need handouts. What they need is equal opportunity and societal awareness of their plight. Why does our younger generation feel shortchanged? This is a deep-seated conflict. They believe that, despite having a better education than previous generations, they have not got the returns they expected. They feel that Hong Kong society lacks social mobility, and that they are being held back from climbing the social ladder. Horizontal and vertical mobility in society fails their aspirations in life. They feel that home prices have soared beyond an affordable level, undermining their plans to get married, start a family or make a business. While the possibility of success remains, the probability of success has diminished, and to many, has evaporated into the thin air. The mystery is: who has stolen the hopes of the younger generation, Deputy President? Success is not to be measured in terms of wealth and housing, but the recognition they receive in their career and their ability to achieve what they want.
If rapid changes and fierce competition in the region and around the globe are contributing factors, the Government's failure to adapt to these challenges is the catalyst, and it deserves censure. Since the handover, the Government has aimed high but shot low in policy planning. It has made a wide variety of pledges, but most, if not all, remain purely academic and stagnant. It has fragmented ideas for dealing with education, employment, housing, poverty and economic issues, and has made little attempt to integrate related issues into a coherent whole.
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According to the Census 2011, the median monthly income of people aged between 15 and 24 was ― before the introduction of the minimum wage ― $8,000 in 2011. Unfortunately, this is the same as it was in 2001, and the median monthly income of men aged between 25 and 34 ― I must apologize to Ms Emily LAU because I did not do work on the women's side ― increased only by just $500 in the 10 years from 2001 to 2011. There is a mismatch between education and occupation.
Over the decade, the educational level in Hong Kong has been on the rise. The percentage of people who received post-secondary education climbed from 16.4% in 2001 to 23% in 2006, and to 27.3% in 2011, thanks to the vigorous development of sub-degree courses. However, these courses led to the death of our youths as while they got their sub-degrees, they failed to make achievements in their career. Many of them are in this category.
The unchanged income level of the young people, which has failed even to keep up with inflation, is a de facto income penalty for over-education. It is not their fault. I have reservations about extending our education system to one which provides 19 years of free education. That would not be a solution to the mismatch. There is an obsession with a linear equation that the level of education is directly proportional to one's success. This obsession needs to be dispelled. Not every child should go to university or study a PhD. Education is not restricted to academic education and the success of a knowledge-based economy is not measured solely by its people's education level, but also by whether its people can make the most of their abilities and talents to contribute to society and the economy. This has been the case in the past and the present, and I hope this would be the case for the future.
While the Government should continue to increase recurrent expenditure on education to allow young people, including the non-Chinese speaking ones who are also the most vulnerable ones, from the lower social strata to move upwards, it must at the same time reshape the economic structure to ensure it meets the outputs of the education system. This should not be done by just uttering empty words, as has happened in the past. The Government's unfulfilled pledge in the late 1990s to promote the development of Chinese medicine in Hong Kong ― a case in point ― only saw many people who studied the subject get betrayed, and left behind a heap of broken promises. Likewise, the high-profile claim to develop the six industries in which Hong Kong enjoys LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2789 clear advantages so as to diversify our economy is still a castle in the air. Actions speak louder than words. The Government must refrain from bureaucratic indecision and turn lip-service into concrete actions.
While approximately 50 000 couples get married every year in Hong Kong, an increasing number of young people failing to secure a place to live means that their plans to get married have also been deferred. In 2011, the median marriage age of women in Hong Kong was 28.9 years, a substantial increase compared to 1981, when it was only 23.9 years. Late marriages will surely have a negative impact on the birth rate and will further (The buzzer sounded) ……
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Your speaking time is up.
MR ABRAHAM SHEK: …… intensify the problem of our ageing population.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
MR PAUL TSE (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I can only make some piecemeal responses. I agree to what Mr CHAN Chi-chuen has just mentioned, in fact, many Hong Kong people have mixed up the concepts of housing needs and the need for home acquisition. As a matter of fact, apart from Hong Kong, I believe young people in many other countries have never thought of home acquisition shortly after graduation, they will not even consider purchasing their sole property in a lifetime until they are in their forties. They, unlike young people in Hong Kong, seldom start planning at a young age. Young people in Hong Kong will, under parental and social influences, start making preparation while they are still in secondary school or in university. Those from well-off families will acquire their own flats with down payment paid by their family members, while those are not well off will apply for public rental housing. This can be regarded as a special characteristic of Hong Kong.
Nevertheless, I do not quite agree to Mr Albert CHAN's remarks that today, young people in Hong Kong are the most miserable generation over the years, except of course in times of war or certain special periods. The situation 2790 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 is not so, no matter we see it from a horizontal or vertical perspective. Earlier, Mr Alan LEONG also said that many of his classmates have "made it" even though they had once lived in public housing estates. I also come from the generation of his classmates, but I am not sure if I belong to the category of people who have "made it" in his eyes, but at least in our youthful days, the living conditions were worse than those of today. Even so, with regard to what Mr WONG Yuk-man said about justice, I do not think there was a higher degree of justice back then. In the colonial times, we could not use our own language at court hearings, even the use of Chinese in courts was not legalized, there was not much we could do. How then can you talk about justice in those years?
Horizontally, while there are quite a number of problems in Hong Kong, when compared with many other places where the unemployment rate is as high as 40% to 50%, I think life in Hong Kong is not the best but better than the worst, and we should treasure what we have. Certainly we hope to do better. However, whenever a motion is moved, it will be distorted, as in the case of the motion today. The motion has been distorted to challenge the Member who proposes the motion or certain political parties. I do not think it should be the attitude of Hong Kong society or the attitude for dealing with a matter in a positive way. I hope Mr CHAN Hak-kan will not feel too bad. I understand that the motion itself is moved with good intentions, but it ended up that you have been challenged time and again for no reason at all.
Deputy President, I believe that the concept of "all classes of people are of low prestige except the scholars" is a deep-rooted concept of Chinese people, which is absolutely different from the concept of "mothers are women", mentioned by many people. As a matter of fact, it is a deep-rooted concept in the society of Hong Kong or China, including Mr Albert CHAN himself. Their family members might have studied in the United States or Canada when they were young, as everyone considers that if one has the means, he should study abroad. Please do not mislead people into thinking that no people will send their children to study abroad if they are fully satisfied with the education policy in Hong Kong. They do not belong to the petty bourgeoisie, their family conditions cannot even be comparable to those of the industrial and commercial sectors and professionals, but most of the time what they speak is not what they do. They pay no heed of their own acts but criticize other people.
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I think one of the problems we have always been facing in recent years is not the lack of opportunity for education; on the contrary, it is the excessive emphasis of grammar schools. Everybody competes to get a degree, not knowing why they have to do so and what they have learnt. The degree awarded may even be completely irrelevant from one's interests or future development pathways. At some point in the past, in Hong Kong and western society, apart from grammar schools, importance had also been attached to vocational training and many apprenticeship schemes were implemented for people to learn and make money at the same time, and training would be provided in the light of local industrial needs and commercial needs. In regard of these, as some colleagues have mentioned just now, I will not repeat.
Given the lopsided development of grammar school education, there is a phenomenon of inflated degrees. Many people claim to be university students, supposedly, they should have attained adequate standard, but in fact this is not the case. In addition, when more opportunities are available, resources will be overstretched. Originally, university students could pay lower school fees or had a higher chance to receive loans. As resources have now been overstretched, the tuition fees would certainly increase while the chance of obtaining loans has been reduced, adding to the burden of many people. This is a point to which I absolutely agree.
In the little time remaining, I wish to put forward the concept of "timely relief" which I consider the most important. What is meant by "timely relief"? It is widely known that many families would prefer spending money on their children's education and training, instead of leaving them money. Likewise, the society should strive to invest more resources in training young people, rather than worrying too much about welfare arrangements in the future. This is because if we provide young people with a good foundation, it is likely that more people will, like Mr Alan LEONG and I who once lived in public housing estates, cope with life, plan for their future and even prepare for their retirement. I think this is a very important point.
There are still one to two points I particularly wish to raise. With regard to Mandatory Provident Fund (MPF), I strongly oppose the idea of forcing young people to save money at a time when they need money for studying, entertainment, down payment or any other purposes. Young people will have to bear the continuous losses and keep paying various fees. This is the first point. 2792 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Secondly, I think young people should have more room for other types of development, including extra-curricular activities, be they sports, arts, religion, or disciplinary groups. We should provide more resources for them to have the opportunity to experience and learn more at a young age. In doing so, they will learn to treasure what they have and value their views along the path ahead. If there is a good foundation for all, and they have good EQ and AQ, no matter what difficulties they will encounter in future, they will certainly know how to take care of themselves, we do not need to worry too much about their future or even their retirement. Thank you, Deputy President.
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any other Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
DEPUTY PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Hak-kan, you may now speak on the eight amendments. The speaking time limit is five minutes.
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): Deputy President, eight colleagues have proposed amendments to this motion and 34 colleagues have spoken, and the whole debate lasted for more than six hours. It is therefore evident that colleagues are deeply concerned about the "four-pronged" problems faced by young people. The three Directors of Bureaux have sat here for very long time and I eagerly look forward to hearing their responses to the concrete views expressed by various Members. I hope that their responses can be positive.
I have to thank, in particular, the numerous Members (more than half of our colleagues) who have spoken, and especially Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr KWOK Wai-keung and Mr IP Kin-yuen. This is because their amendments have enriched my original motion by incorporating specific proposals concerning the development of young people.
Deputy President, how do I look at these amendments? I have one major principle, and that is, all amendments should serve the long-term interests of young people and must be beneficial to their development. I wish to highlight that, among the "four-pronged" problems, I have discussed in the greatest length LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2793 problems relating to housing and home acquisition for this is the biggest hurdle confronting young people, followed by education, employment and business start-up. Thus, with regard to the home acquisition problem faced by young people, I do not think there is any room for compromise. Therefore, I am sorry to say that any amendments proposing the deletion of wordings from the part on home acquisition, such as the amendments proposed by Mr Charles Peter MOK and Mr Jeffrey LAM to delete certain concrete figures, will not be acceptable to me.
Neither do I agree with Dr Helena WONG's amendment. This is because the issues under discussion are realistic matters related to livelihood, but not political issues. Do we wish to see issues which apparently relate to livelihood matters being politicized?
With regard to the two points raised by Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che in his amendment, namely, re-visiting the definition of families eligible for public rental housing and providing a waiver to interns who work less than 59 days in respect of the minimum wage arrangement, I am aware that the latter proposal, which proposes to provide a waiver to interns, had been discussed time and again in the Legislative Council and the relevant bills committee during the legislative process of the minimum wage law, and Members had expressed divergent views back then. If we hastily put forward a new definition or incorporate views which Members do not see eye to eye, I trust that they will not be endorsed or supported by this Council. It would be better to pass these controversial issues to the panels or relevant consultative bodies for discussion before tabling in the Council. By so doing, even if the relevant views have to be incorporated into the motion, they would be endorsed by Members more easily.
Finally, regarding Dr Kenneth CHAN's amendment, our proposals are quite similar, but as I have said, Dr CHAN has deleted some major points relating to home acquisition from my original motion, thus I will not support his amendment. Neither will I oppose his amendment. I will therefore abstain from voting.
Deputy President, I so submit.
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SECRETARY FOR EDUCATION (in Cantonese): Deputy President, first of all, I thank Mr CHAN for proposing his motion, eight Members for proposing amendments and 34 Members for expressing their views. They have put forward many valuable opinions. The purpose of the SAR Government's introduction of a new academic structure is to enable all students to choose the most suitable subject from the diversified curriculum when they complete senior secondary education, with a view to genuinely maximizing their potentials and capabilities. And, through participation in Other Learning Experiences, young people can broaden their horizons and experiences, which would facilitate their advancement on the multiple pathways, as well as realize lifelong learning and achieve success.
The first Hong Kong Diploma of Secondary Education (HKDSE) Examination for the New Senior Secondary (NSS) curriculum was completed smoothly in 2012, and 70 000 NSS graduates have already entered into new stages via different pathways for further studies and employment. After years of promotion, the HKDSE qualification has received widespread support and recognition from the community, and is also accepted by many international academic communities. Apart from local universities, the HKDSE has also gained the recognition of quite a number of overseas governments, universities and academic institutions. According to the benchmarking studies conducted by the United Kingdom's National Recognition Information Centre and the United Kingdom's Universities and Colleges Admissions Service, the HKDSE compares favourably with the United Kingdom General Certificate of Education A Level. The Australian Government also admitted that the HKDSE is equivalent to the Australian Senior Secondary Certificate of Education. More than 139 universities around the world (including reputed universities such as the University of Cambridge and Yale University) have indicated their recognition of the HKDSE for admission purpose. The updated list of institutions has been uploaded to the website of the Hong Kong Examination and Assessment Authority.
This year, as a pilot scheme, some Mainland higher education institutions have exempted Hong Kong students from taking the Joint Entrance Examination (JEE) for Universities, and admit them on the basis of their results in the HKDSE Examinations or the Hong Kong Advanced Level Examinations direct. In 2012, over 4 200 students have registered for the JEE of Mainland higher education institutions and 971 Hong Kong students were admitted as a result. Early this LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2795 month, the Ministry of Education of the People's Republic of China announced the concrete arrangement of the pilot scheme for exempting Hong Kong students from taking the JEE in 2013. More than 70 institutions participated in the pilot scheme, which is seven more than last year. NSS graduates may also apply for universities in Taiwan direct without sitting any entrance examination. Furthermore, students may stay in Hong Kong and enrol in some 1 000 non-local programmes offered in Hong Kong. Coupled with other distance learning and blended learning programmes offered by The Open University of Hong Kong, all these are beneficial to multiple progression and learning, as well as future employment and continuous studies.
The Government has attached great importance to tertiary education, and has all along supported publicly-funded and self-financing institutions to roll forward on a double track. We will continue to invest significant resources in publicly-funded institutions. In the 2012-2013 academic year, the first-year first-degree places of the University Grants Committee (UGC)-funded programmes have been increased to 15 000, and senior year degree programme places have been doubled progressively to 8 000 each year, that is, around 4 000 intake places, to provide more articulation opportunities for the sub-degree graduates. Together with the increased number of students who can complete their education until Secondary Six under the NSS academic structure, it is estimated that the number of undergraduate students in publicly-funded institutions will considerably increase by nearly 40% in 2016. The annual recurrent funding of UGC-funded institutions will increase by more than $3 billion in the 2014-2015 academic year.
We have proactively supported the development of self-financing institutions, including self-financing degree and articulation degree programmes, so as to give more study opportunities to secondary school leavers and sub-degree graduates. Through policy support and the concerted efforts of institutions, the number of self-financing degree-awarding institutions has increased to eight, which doubles that of 2009. Also, we encourage the self-financing post-secondary sector to progressively increase the number of self-financing degree places. The number of full-time accredited self-financing degree places was approximately 3 100 in the 2009-2010 academic year, it was later increased to about 7 700 in the 2012-2013 academic year. Furthermore, we expect that more non-local programmes will be accredited by the Hong Kong Council for Accreditation of Academic and Vocational Qualifications (HKCAAVQ) and thus 2796 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 provide accredited self-financing degree programmes. The Government attaches great importance on the quality assurance for higher education, and there are currently a total of three organizations to monitor the quality of post-secondary programmes. We agree with UGC's recommendations for the establishment of a unified quality assurance body for the entire post-secondary education sector, and will therefore proceed along this line.
As I said in my first speech, the Government has strived to provide school leavers with flexible and diversified study pathways with multiple entry and exit points. Apart from taking degree courses, students may also enrol in sub-degree programmes. In promoting the development of degree and sub-degree programmes, the Government has all along been giving equal emphasis to both quality and quantity. We estimate that by 2015, over one third of our young people in the relevant cohort will have access to degree-level education. Including sub-degree education, over two thirds of them will have access to post-secondary education.
Furthermore, students may also turn to other education opportunities according to their interests and aptitudes. Enrolment in the Yi Jin Diploma programme is an example, which provides an alternative pathway for Secondary Six school leavers under the New Academic Structure as well as adult learners. The HKCAAVQ assessed that the exit standard of the Yi Jin Diploma programme is deemed comparable to the attainment of Level 2 standard in five subjects including Chinese Language and English Language in the HKDSE Examination in terms of the skills, values and attitude of students. The Yi Jin Diploma has been accepted by member institutions of the Federation for Self-financing Tertiary Education as meeting the admission criteria of their Associate Degree and Higher Diploma or equivalent programmes. People who are interested in taking up secondary courses on a part-time basis may also enrol in the evening secondary courses offered under the Financial Assistance Scheme for Designated Evening Adult Education Courses, and eligible students will receive tuition fee reimbursement of different levels.
With regard to vocational education, as Members have mentioned just now, the SAR Government will continue to provide comprehensive, diversified and quality career-oriented subjects through the Vocational Training Council (VTC), thereby providing young people with alternative progression pathways outside academic education. There are a total of about 100 000 Secondary Seven and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2797
NSS students graduating in 2012, and various progression and articulation pathways have altogether provided nearly 110 000 places ― Deputy President should be very familiar with this ― which fully reflects the efforts made by the Government and different sectors in respect of the development of young people.
In order to tie in with the multiple pathways, Applied Learning courses are offered as elective subjects in the NSS curriculum, and this is a very important trend and initiative. To support schools to offer Applied Learning courses, a Diversity Learning Grant is provided upon application. The level of grant for the 2012-2014 cohort has been enhanced to further encourage schools to embrace more Applied Learning choices for their students. The Applied Learning courses offer studies with stronger elements of practical learning linked to the application of knowledge and concepts in broad professional and vocational fields, and are complementary to the NSS subjects. The courses attach equal importance to the construction of knowledge and the development of skills and attitudes, with a view to enabling students to learn the relevant basic theories and concepts from application and practice, and developing their generic skills in real-life situations. People may ask, "What is meant by 'Applied Learning'?" Let me share with you the six areas of studies of Applied Learning courses: Firstly, Creative Studies; secondly, Media and Communication; thirdly, Business, Management and Law; fourthly, Services; fifthly, Applied Science, and sixthly, Engineering and Production. We can thus see that the courses emphasize on application.
I must also thank Members for their special concern over the promotion of "career and life planning" at the stage of secondary education. At present, career guidance teachers are available in all secondary schools to assist students to embark on "career and life planning". Since 2008, the Curriculum Development Institute of the Education Bureau has joined hands with the Hong Kong Association of Careers Masters and Guidance Masters to provide a series of support, teaching and learning resources, as well as training for "career and life planning" for schools under the new academic structure. These include Individual Student Planning tools, Teacher Training Workshop, online resources and electronic tools. Also, under the NSS curriculum, schools will devote no less than 15% of the lesson time to provide students with other learning experiences, which include career-related experiences, as well as activities like study and career talks for students according to school-based needs, workplace visits and internships. Individual Members have highlighted their wish for the 2798 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 authorities to attach importance to internship. Emphasis has already been placed on internship to enhance students' knowledge and understanding of the world of work, encourage them to make individual planning, and think about the future career and studies so as to prepare themselves for the multiple pathways under the new academic structure. The Education Bureau will continue to provide the relevant support.
As a Member has mentioned university education and places, I therefore wish to point out that the Government has invested significant resources in publicly-funded institutions. The annual recurrent grant of UGC-funded institutions will reach as high as $14.3 billion in the 2014-2015 academic year. On the other hand, the Government has provided various student finance schemes to assist tertiary students to pursue further studies, thereby ensuring that no student will be deprived of the opportunity to study through lack of means.
Here, I wish to talk about the impact of foreign students in Hong Kong on local students. A Member worried that the admission of Mainland students by local universities will have an impact on local students. I wish to highlight that, under the existing policy, the non-local student quota for sub-degree, degree and postgraduate programmes offered by UGC-funded institutions is capped at 20% of the approved student number targets for these programmes. I must stress that this is the approved quota, which comprises up to 4% within the UGC-funded number and up to 16% outside the UGC-funded number. Given that non-local students are mainly over-enrolled beyond the approved quota, they therefore do not have direct competition with local students. In line with the abovementioned policy, various institutions will decide on discretion the actual number of non-local students to be admitted in the light of their development and resource availability.
With regard to postgraduate programmes, publicly-funded institutions currently provide 5 595 postgraduate places each year. UGC-funded institutions admit students to their research postgraduate programmes on a merit basis, taking into account students' academic results and research capability. No quota restriction has been imposed on the admission of non-local students in publicly-funded research postgraduate programmes.
A Member wished that the authorities would increase hostel places for tertiary students. The Government also reckons that hostel life is an essential LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2799 part of university education, and has therefore strived to assist UGC-funded institutions to provide the necessary publicly-funded student hostels. For the self-financing sector, we have extended the ambit of the Start-up Loan Scheme to support the self-financing degree sector in providing student hostels.
A Member proposed that more placements should be arranged for tertiary students. We very much agree with this and have injected $1 billion into the HKSAR Government Scholarship Fund and the Self-financing Post-secondary Education Fund respectively in June 2012, so as to establish more scholarships and awards to support students to participate in learning, internship or service programmes conducted outside Hong Kong.
On the other hand, various institutions will also invite suitable organizations to provide placements to broaden the horizon of graduates and help them gain experience. For example, the Student Industrial Attachment Programme organized by the VTC is a "work-based experience programme" providing a real-life organizational context for students to develop specific or generic skills, valuable to their professional development. For graduating students, various institutions have proactively provided job placement, employment training and counselling services.
To ensure that no student is deprived of education for lack of means, the Government has established a number of student finance schemes to help tertiary students pursue further studies, which include the means-tested Tertiary Student Finance Scheme ― Publicly-funded Programmes and the Financial Assistance Scheme for Post-secondary Students, as well as the Non-means Tested Loan Schemes. While the former schemes provide grants and loans to help eligible students meet tuition fees, academic expenses and living expenses, the latter provides loans to eligible students to meet tuition fees.
Let me elaborate on the means-tested finance schemes as a number of Members have earlier indicated their wish to learn more about them. In the 2011-2012 academic year, a total amount of about $1.9 billion grants and $500 million living expenses in loans were disbursed under the two schemes to around 50 000 tertiary students. The average grant and loan amount disbursed were about $38,000 and $29,000 respectively. For the Non-means Tested Loan Schemes, over 21 000 students were granted loans amounting to some $1.09 billion in the 2011-2012 academic year.
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The Government has reviewed the various student finance schemes from time to time to provide appropriate support to needy tertiary students. In fact, we have conducted a number of comprehensive reviews of the means test mechanism and individual finance schemes since 2000. During the 2011-2012 academic year, the Government had implemented a series of improvement measures, which included relaxing the income ceiling for full level of assistance, adjusting the existing tiers of assistance and providing an additional amount of academic expenses grant of up to $1,000 to all eligible tertiary students. Following the implementation of the improvement measures, the percentage of students receiving full level of assistance had increased from 37% to 62%, whereas those who did not receive full level of assistance also received additional financial assistance. All in all, after the implementation of the improvement measures, the grant received by each tertiary student had increased by more than 20%. In the 2012-2013 academic year, the Government has also implemented a series of measures to improve the Financial Assistance Schemes for Post-secondary Students, which include relaxing the age limit from 25 to 30, removing the restrictions on prior academic qualification for the purpose of applying for assistance and removing the grant repayment requirement under which students who fail to obtain the intended qualification are required to repay the grants.
Furthermore, to relieve the repayment burden of student loan borrowers, the Government had completed a review of the interest rate and repayment period of various loan schemes in 2012. The annual interest rate of the means-tested loan schemes was lowered from 2.5% to 1%, and the standard repayment period was extended from five years to 15 years. For a median loan amount of $40,110, the monthly repayment amount will be significantly reduced by 66% from $713 to $240. These measures have benefited about 73 000 people.
Earlier, some Members have expressed serious concern about the heavy loan burden borne by tertiary graduates. Let me make a particular response here and share with Members some updated figures. Among the various loan schemes for tertiary students, the median loan amount for graduates is less than $45,000, an updated figure obtained by us. Another point which I would like to share with Members is concerned with the number of students receiving financial assistance under the self-financing post-secondary programmes. Grants were disbursed to a total of some 22 000 students, which accounted for about 32% of the total number of students; 3% received loans and 12% received LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2801 non-means-tested loans. For publicly-funded post-secondary programmes, grants were provided to 33% of students, 11% received loans and 7% received non-means-tested loans. This is the general situation.
We hope that the abovementioned measures can greatly relieve the repayment burden of students and provide appropriate assistance to needy students. We do not agree with a Member's proposal to waive the interest accrued during students' study periods as arrangements have been made by the authorities in various respects, and the entire loan approach is based on one principle, that is, the "no-gain-no-loss" principle.
Next, I will talk about a Member's proposal of requiring the Government to study the feasibility of allowing local students to apply for student loans for pursuing further education overseas. First of all, in our view, the Government is duty-bound to help students in financial difficulties to enrol in programmes in Hong Kong. Secondly, the overseas programmes to be attended by students have extensive scopes and the relevant institutions may not have offices in Hong Kong; thus government regulation may, to a certain extent, be difficult. Hence, we have not yet considered providing loans for students for further education overseas.
Lastly, quite a number of Members just now queried the recognition of associate degree qualification in the community. Here, I would like to brief Members that after the Education Bureau implemented the Qualifications Framework for different industries in 2008, the rate of participation has been high in recent years. The Qualifications Framework is a seven-level hierarchy covering qualifications in the academic, vocational and continuing education sectors, and qualifications have been divided into seven levels by means of objective and specific standards. Reference has been made to various international practices to learn from their merits before the Qualifications Framework was implemented in Hong Kong. For the seven levels, on the academic perspective, Level 7 is Doctor; Level 6 is Master; Level 5 is Bachelor, and Level 4 are Associate and Higher Diploma. The Qualifications Framework has been implemented for some time and different sectors, enterprises and industries have also participated in the overall development. So far, 18 industries have joined the Qualifications Framework to do the relevant work, covering more than 45% of the total workforce.
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I must place special emphasis on this point. As enterprises and employers have directly participated in the development process of the Qualifications Framework, they have therefore obtained a very good understanding of the entire framework and find it acceptable. The latest development of the Qualifications Framework is the introduction of the Use of Credit under the Qualifications Framework and the Award Titles Scheme. While the later aims to adopt a standardized system for award titles, the former facilitates the transfer of credits in the future, thereby enabling a more flexible development of the training of talents. This is beneficial to both employers and employees, especially in respect of employees' pursuance of further studies and training of different industries.
Last but not least, I would like to sincerely thank Members again for providing so many opinions. We will continue to promote good education for young people both in terms of quality and quantity, and nurture them as talents with vision, confidence and multiple intelligences, who will acquire achievements from study and apply their knowledge, thereby bringing a brighter future for themselves and Hong Kong.
Thank you, Deputy President.
SECRETARY FOR LABOUR AND WELFARE (in Cantonese): Deputy President, once again, I would like to thank Mr CHAN Hak-kan for proposing his motion, eight Members for proposing amendments and 34 Members for expressing their views. They have given many useful views concerning the promotion of youth employment and business start-up.
The promotion of youth employment is a very important social project which requires cross-sector collaboration, particularly the support of employers and non-governmental organizations (NGOs).
The policy objective of the SAR Government is always clear, that is, to promote youth employment by providing comprehensive training and employment support, developing a multi-pronged strategy and devising suitable measures. With a series of programmes and schemes, such as the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme (YPTP&YWETS) and the Youth Employment Start (Y.E.S.) of the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2803
Labour Department (LD), various retraining programmes (including the Youth Training Programme) of the Employees Retraining Board (ERB), as well as the apprenticeship schemes and traineeship schemes of the Vocational Training Council (VTC), young people are provided with all kinds of employment support services and a wide range of vocational training opportunities to enhance their employability.
After years of planning, co-ordination and reviews, all these programmes or schemes have developed their own operation models and catered for specific target groups. Each of them targets at different industries and provides training courses of different durations, optimizing the specialties of different departments and institutions to cater for the needs of young people with different backgrounds, educational attainments and abilities. With the efforts of the Government and various sectors of the community, there is actually some improvement in youth employment in recent years.
Some Members have proposed setting up more youth employment resource centres (resources centres) throughout the territory. I have to first thank Members for recognizing the services provided by these resources centres. The two existing resources centres are located at Langham Place in Mong Kok and Kwai Fong, which are popular gathering places of young people with excellent public transportation network. In 2011, the resources centres provided services to more than 74 000 young people. We think that it is better to keep concentrating our resources on these two centres to enable the effective delivery of one-stop comprehensive support services to young people. However, we will keep updated of the attendance of the resources centres to ensure that the demand for their services can be met.
A Member has also suggested that we should implement the recommendations for improvement on youth employment services in the Director of Audit's Report No. 59. The recommendations of the Director of Audit are useful in strengthening the supervision of services provided by the training bodies of the YPTP&YWETS and the operators of the resources centres, as well as improving the relevant administrative work. We have accepted the opinions of the Audit Commission and will actively study the most effective means to implement these recommendations.
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A Member has suggested extending and consolidating the various similar apprenticeship schemes. Yet, each of the apprenticeship schemes and traineeship schemes now operated by the VTC has indeed got its own features and target group. The Technician Apprenticeship (Traineeship) Training Scheme falls under the statutory Apprenticeship Scheme which mainly covers industrial/technical trades to provide trainees with systematic on-the-job training over a longer period. The Modern Apprenticeship Scheme provides short and more flexible pre-employment vocational training programmes to rekindle trainees' desire to learn and give them some ideas on the job/technical requirements of individual industries. This Scheme mainly covers service industries and teaches only elementary skills.
In view of the rapid development of services industries in recent years, the VTC, after reviewing the existing schemes mentioned above, launched a new pilot traineeship scheme for service industries at the end of last year to cater for the latest needs of the industries and trainees by providing systematic on-the-job training and professional educational programmes which teaches more advanced skills in an appropriate training period. From the above, it is evident that each and every apprenticeship scheme or traineeship scheme is responding to different needs of industries and young people to give a complementary effect.
Some Members have proposed that more employers should be encouraged to employ young people with less working experience. At present, in order to encourage more employers to provide job opportunities to young people, the YPTP&YWETS provide training subsidies to employers who offer on-the-job training vacancies. Regardless of whether these employers are large or small enterprises in the public or private sector, each of them will be paid a monthly on-the-job training subsidy of $2,000 for their employment of each trainee during the training period of six to 12 months. In the 2011-2012 Scheme year, the YPTP&YWETS received almost 10 000 on-the-job training vacancies from employers, reflecting that the YPTP&YWETS has been established as an effective platform which facilitates the good co-operation among the Government, training bodies, employers and some other parties in promoting youth employment.
A Member proposed that we should assist young people in joining industries which need new blood, such as the construction industry, transport industry and shipping industry. The authorities will constantly review the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2805 manpower situation of these industries and develop appropriate measures to train talents. Apart from the various training bodies which provide training courses, the ERB has also provided 58 relevant courses in the year of 2012-2013. These courses include 24 construction courses, 22 transport courses and 12 shipping courses. Full-time trainees of these courses will be offered with placement follow-up services to help them join the relevant industries.
In respect of helping young people pursue further studies, a number of Members have suggested raising the cap on the amount of subsidy receivable by each applicant for the Continuing Education Fund (CEF), extending the period for claiming relevant subsidies, relaxing the restriction on the maximum number of reimbursement claims, and so on. In response, I would like to say that, since the introduction of the CEF in 2002, it has granted almost $3.3 billion of subsidies, with the amount of subsidy for each applicant capped at $10,000. As the fees of the CEF courses are usually at the level of $10,000 or below, the subsidy amount of $10,000 is generally enough for paying course fees. Eligible applicants with financial needs may consider applying for the Non-means Tested Loans granted by the Student Financial Assistance Agency. In fact, when the Government reviewed the operation of the CEF in 2007, we extended the period for claiming CEF subsidies from two years to four years and allowed the maximum number of reimbursement claims to increase from two times to four times.
Some Members are greatly concerned about the ethnic minorities and suggest subsidizing young people from low-income families, particularly South Asian young people, to attend courses. At present, the ERB has already provided special courses to the ethnic minorities, covering a number of trades. It has also provided the "Module Certificate in Employment Set Sail" courses to enable trainees to recognize the community resources and the local labour market situation, and to equip them to speak and understand basic Cantonese for general socializing and workplace communication. Full-time courses of the ERB are provided free of charge. As for half-day or evening courses, low-income trainees may apply for fee remission.
Some Members have suggested motivating employers to provide employees with "training leave", including offering tax concessions to such employers. Some Members have also proposed conducting a study on enacting legislation to require the provision of "training leave" for employees.
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I must point out that enterprises have already been given tax allowance on their expenses incurred on staff training. Also, the Government has all along been encouraging enterprises, through promotion and education, to implement supporting measures, such as flexible work or leave arrangements, to facilitate employees in upgrading their skills and knowledge so as to enhance their competitiveness in the labour market. To my knowledge, many employers have made arrangements for their employees to receive training during working hours in order to enhance employees' skills and companies' competitiveness. We will continue to encourage employers to adopt good people management practices.
A Member has proposed amending the Minimum Wage Ordinance to cover university student interns who work less than 59 days. I must say that the current exemption arrangement have struck a balance between the protection of employees' interests and the need for internships. The relevant provisions were passed after in-depth discussions and detailed examination of the Legislative Council. As the minimum wage has only been introduced to Hong Kong for one year or so, the Government will continue to monitor its implementation. At this moment, we do not think there are any pressing or actual needs to revise the exemptions on interns.
A Member has urged the authorities to proactively approach long-term unemployed young people and hidden youths. Presently, the Social Welfare Department (SWD) provides timely support to young people who are not receptive to social norms, particularly young night drifters, through 16 District Youth Outreaching Social Work Teams and 18 Overnight Outreaching Teams for Young Night Drifters which receive its funding.
In view of the rapid growth in the use of the Internet by young people, the SWD has specially commissioned three NGOs to each launch a pilot cyber youth outreaching project with effect from August 2011 for three years to proactively reach out to young people, particularly at-risk or hidden youths. Those who are assessed to be in need of follow-up services will be linked up to the existing mainstream social services.
Besides, a Member has suggested making permanent the existing 3 000 Programme Worker posts created for young people. I must point out that these posts are of temporary and short-term nature from the very beginning. These posts are not introduced as the core positions of relevant welfare service units or a LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2807 long-term measure to solve the youth unemployment problem. Indeed, this programme should have been expired in March this year as it was originally planned to introduce them for three years only. The Government has made special arrangement to extend this programme. In March this year, the SWD informed all relevant organizations that the funding for these posts would be extended to March next year, and these organizations had all confirmed that they were aware of this arrangement.
A number of Members have expressed concerns over the opportunities for young people to start up their businesses. Please note that the Hong Kong Mortgage Corporation Limited (HKMC) has just launched the Microfinance Scheme, which will run for a pilot period of three years, since June this year to offer the Micro Business Start-up Loan, Self-employment Loan and Self-enhancement Loan. The target borrowers are business starters, self-employed persons and those wanting to achieve self-enhancement through training, upgrading of skills or securing professional certification. These loans are open to any eligible youths aged 18 or above.
As for entrepreneurial training programmes, the Microfinance Scheme launched by the HKMC will provide business starters and self-employed persons in need with supporting services, such as entrepreneurial training and mentorship. Furthermore, Y.E.S. of the Labour Department will regularly hold workshops on self-employment, provide free professional legal and accountancy advisory services and offer a full range of office facilities and services to help the youth who are interested in starting up a business.
A Member has proposed setting up a dedicated fund under the Film Development Fund (FDF) to provide subsidies to young directors. One of the objectives for setting up the FDF is to train local talents in film production. The FDF has financed 26 film projects, involving a funding of $74.41 million, since its expansion in scope in July 2007 to finance the production of small-to-medium budget films, that is, films with a production budget of less than $15 million. Among these 26 films financed by the FDF, 15 directors and 10 producers are new to commercial films. These figures show that the FDF can really play a role in nurturing film talents, in addition to promoting the overall development of Hong Kong's film industry. The Government will keep in close contact with the film industry to ensure that the financing scheme can meet the actual needs of the industry.
2808 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
On the support given to young people who aspire to a career in creativity, culture and arts, the Government has long been taken forward conservation and revitalization projects to promote the development of cultural and creative industries. The measures for revitalizing industrial buildings were introduced on 1 April 2010 to encourage the redevelopment of existing industrial sites or the wholesale conversion of existing industrial buildings with a view to better utilizing precious land resources to meet the changing needs of social and economic developments. In addition, the Government announced in October last year that it would allocate resources to the Arts Development Council (ADC) for the provision of art space at suitable industrial premises. Such space will be available for rent by artists at concessionary rates.
Given that some companies in the creative industry may need studios and supporting services when they first start up, the Government and relevant organizations have implemented incubation schemes to support these new companies. For example, in order to promote the development of the design industry, the Government has provided funding for the Design Incubation Programme of the InnoCentre to support small design start-ups. The Cyberport has also introduced the Cyberport Incubation Programme to provide support to local digital entertainment and information technology start-ups.
On arts development, the Government encourages social organizations to develop cultural facilities which facilitate arts development. The Jockey Club Creative Arts Centre is a case in point. A Member has also suggested increasing the budget for arts to provide young art workers with more placement opportunities. In this regard, the ADC's Internship Scheme and Cultural Internship Scheme, as well as the Arts Administrator Trainee Programme and the Museum Trainee Programme of the Leisure and Cultural Services Department, have all played a positive role. The Government will continue to take forward conservation and revitalization projects, promote the development of cultural and creative industries, and encourage more young people to join in.
Deputy President, young people are the future of our society. We will continue to make unremitting efforts to provide our youths with appropriate training, as well as employment and self-employment support, by actively implementing different services and programmes.
I so submit. Thank you.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2809
SECRETARY FOR TRANSPORT AND HOUSING (in Cantonese): Deputy President, I thank the 34 Members who have spoken on the housing issues in the original motion and the eight amendments. Like all Members, the Government is very concerned about the housing needs of people from different social strata, including young people and young families. I have already given an overall account of the Government's current policy and the related measures on housing. There is only one solution to the housing problem and it involves the issue of land supply. At present, land is in short supply. We admit that this imposes great pressure and heavy burdens on the housing needs of the public, and young people are no exception. Next, I will make a consolidated response to the views expressed by Members. But I will not repeat the issues that I have talked about, such as the Home Starter Loan Scheme.
Some Members have suggested that, in consideration of the situations of young people, the Government should revise the income and assets limits for the application of Public Rental Housing (PRH). I want to emphasis here that public housing is a valuable resource and we must have in place a fair and reasonable mechanism to ensure that this limited resource is used properly to serve the most needy people.
(THE PRESIDENT resumed the Chair)
The Housing Authority (HA) has in place a fair and consistent mechanism for calculating the Waiting List income and asset limits. Under the current mechanism, the calculation of the Waiting List income limit is based on the household expenditure, consisting of the two major components of housing and non-housing expenditures. The income limit is adjusted annually according to the latest economic data, during which the total household income required to rent a private accommodation comparable to PRH while meeting other non-housing expenditure is measured. The income limits for all household sizes are consistently derived under the same methodology. In fact, the 2012-2013 income and asset limits have increased 7.7% and 5.3% on average respectively as compared to those of the previous year. We will continue to review the Waiting List income and asset limits annually under this proven, fair and consistent mechanism rather than hastily raising or lowering them in response to the demands made by certain groups.
2810 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Some Members who have spoken earlier suggested that the Quota and Points System for non-elderly one-person applicants should be reviewed, so as to shorten the waiting time of young people. We understand that Members wanted to reflect young people's aspirations for moving away from their family and living in an independent housing unit. That indeed has increased the demand for housing units. However, under the constraint of limited resources of overall public housing, we accord priorities to families under the existing allocation system. If we lightly abolish the Quota and Points System, it will inevitably extend the waiting time of the household applicants. There are also diverse views on this suggestion in the community. We understand that non-elderly one-person applicants include singletons of various age groups who have different needs. I have also mentioned in my opening speech that senior singletons have relatively smaller chance of improving their living environment by upward mobility. On the contrary, young people have greater economic potentials and stand a better chance for upward mobility by their own efforts. Hence, their needs for public housing are less urgent than those singletons who are senior in age. We will review the Quota and Points System from this direction. The Long Term Housing Strategy Steering Committee is studying the priorities of the housing demand of various community groups and will recommend the responding strategies.
As regards the proposal to increase the provision of small PRH flats, the HA will roll forward the five-year Public Housing Construction Programme each year. When rolling the Programme forward, we will determine the flat mix and distribution with respect to the distribution of household size of Waiting List applicants, population and household composition projections, the prevailing public housing policy, and so on, in order to meet the demand of applicants with different household sizes. I have just mentioned that among the new PRH flats to be constructed by the HA in the next five years, about 50% are smaller units for one to two persons or for two to three persons. We will continue to monitor the supply of various PRH flats and make adjustments as required.
I have mentioned in my opening speech that some young people may have to take care of their parents or other elderly members in their family. In fact, the HA has always been very supportive of the promotion of inter-generational integration with a view to creating a harmonious living environment. To encourage the younger generation to take care of their elderly parents and live with them, the HA has introduced a number of Harmonious Families Priority LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2811
Schemes. I believe that Members have a basic understanding of these schemes and I will not elaborate here. All I want to say is that these schemes are widely popular and as at September this year, a total of over 23 000 households have benefited. We will continue to implement the measures concerned and make timely review of their operation.
As regards Mr KWOK Wai-keung's proposal to abolish the "well-off tenants policy" or Mr WONG Kwok-hing's similar criticism against this policy, I have to reiterate that the Government's housing policy aims at providing PRH flats to those who cannot afford private rental housing and tremendous public resources are involved.
The number of applications for PRH continues to rise in recent years, which has aroused wide concern in the community. In fact, there have been voices in the community urging the HA to tighten the means test imposed on the well-off PRH tenants. For example, in the discussion in a radio programme on current affairs this morning, some members of the audience strongly demanded the Government to recover the well-off tenants' PRH flats and some Members have also have great reservation about the abolition of the "well-off tenants policy". The HA needs to ensure the effective use and rational allocation of the limited public housing resources and will continue to implement various policies and measures to ensure the rational allocation of the public housing resources, including the "well-off tenants policy".
As regards relaxing young people's eligibility criteria for applying Home Ownership Scheme (HOS) flats, I have already mentioned in my opening speech that the Government has decided to resume the production of HOS and has set HOS as a permanent part of the housing ladder. It will also put up for sale the remaining HOS flats in early 2013. The HA will put up for sale the remaining and future HOS flats under the established practice of HOS. When we assess the income limit, we will take into account the total household expenditure, that is, the sum of the households' housing and non-housing expenditures. Under the established practice of the HOS in the past, we will calculate and determine the actual income limits of our target community groups according to an established formula and the latest economic data about one or two months before the relevant flats are put up for sale. These adjustments are based on good grounds and have taken into account of issues in various aspects; they are reasonable and objective rather than being inconsistently set at random.
2812 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Mr WU Chi-wai suggested allowing HOS flats to be rented out. The purpose of providing HOS housing is to help people with lower incomes to acquire their own home. Under the current policy, HOS owners should mainly be occupiers. If we allow these owners to rent out their HOS flats for profit before paying the premium, it is in effect allowing them to make personal gain by means of public resources, which contravenes the objective of the HA in providing HOS flats. We do not agree to that.
Some Members have proposed to re-launch the Sandwich Class Housing Scheme (SCHS). When the Hong Kong Housing Society (HKHS) introduced this Scheme in 1994, its target was those with higher incomes than that of the HOS residents. When the last batch of such flats was put up for sale in 2000, the total monthly family income required was $60,000. Now that the Government has resumed the HOS production, we will also study the effective means to help the sandwich class, who are ineligible for PRH application but cannot afford to buy private flats, to acquire a home. But we have no intention to re-launch the SCHS launched by HKHS.
Regarding the proposal of Dr Kenneth CHAN and Mr Alan LEONG to provide a certain quantity of "flats with limited floor areas" among private residential flats, the Government announced for the first time in 2010 that it would specify in the land sale conditions the minimum number of residential flats to be built and the restrictions on the flat size, which are in effect "flats with limited floor areas". This measure aimed to increase the supply of small and medium-sized flats in the market. In addition, the Government introduced a measure in 2011-2012, requiring developers to at least provide a certain number of flats on certain residential sites, so as to ensure the supply of residential flats. With the launch of the West Rail property development projects and the resumption of the HOS production, the supply of small and medium-sized flats in the market will increase notably in the coming years.
Some Members have also suggested amending the ad valorem stamp duty in order to reduce the financial burden on young people who are first-time home buyers. At present, for a residential property with a transaction price or the amount or value of the consideration not exceeding $2 million, the ad valorem stamp duty is only $100, and for a residential property with a transaction price or the amount or value of the consideration exceeding $2 million, the ad valorem stamp duty will be calculated by multiplying its property price or value by LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2813 different stamp duty rates. Generally speaking, the applicable stamp duty rate increases according to the property price or value, with 4.25% as the maximum. The current stamp duty rates have already manifested the "ability to pay" principle.
President, on the whole, as reflected from the speeches of some Members just now and the public opinion in society, whether young people need special care regarding housing is controversial. I have heard diverse views from various social sectors and Members of this Council. No matter what, the Government will continue to make every effort to perfect our housing ladder in the long, median and short run, so as to provide diversified housing options for people from various social strata, including young people, so that they can find a housing unit in the public or private housing sectors that is affordable and can meet their housing needs.
As I have said earlier, we will review the ever changing housing demand and priorities in the community in our review of the Long Term Housing Strategy, so as to cater for the needs of different community groups, including young people. As regards the problem of transportation fees mentioned by Mr TANG Ka-piu and his views, I believe that Members will have more time to speak on that issue and discuss in depth next week. The Government will also make a response by then.
Thank you, President.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr KWOK Wai-keung, please move your amendment.
MR KWOK WAI-KEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion be amended.
Mr KWOK Wai-keung moved the following amendment: (Translation)
"To add ", it is well known that" after "That"; to add "in 2016, students under the new and old academic structures will graduate at the same time, and a large number of graduates will then join the employment market, 2814 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
causing an impact;" after "acquisition and business start-up;"; to delete "abolish" after "student finance schemes," and substitute with "including abolishing"; to delete ", set" after "the risk rate" and substitute with "; setting"; to delete "replace" after "at 2.5%, and" and substitute with "waiving the interest accrued during students' study periods; replacing"; to add "; allowing tax deduction on repayment amounts of university education loans; studying the feasibility of allowing local students to apply for student loans for further education overseas; and increasing the amount of grant for tertiary students" after "interest-free loans"; to delete "$20,000, and" after "each applicant to" and substitute with "$40,000,"; to add "to 10 years, and abolish the restriction on applicants to make a maximum of four reimbursement claims" after "by the scheme"; to add "(d) to strengthen vocational education for students of post-secondary and tertiary institutions, so that young people can identify as early as possible their objectives concerning career prospects, and lay a good foundation for upward mobility; (e) to increase the number of internship places in Hong Kong and overseas for students of the various tertiary institutions; (f) to increase the number of student hostels in various tertiary institutions for cultivating students' skills of interpersonal communication and companionship as well as co-operative abilities; (g) to strengthen the manning ratio of student guidance personnel in secondary schools and tertiary institutions, so as to assist young people in facing problems on education, family, making friends and career prospects, etc.;" after "continuous education;"; to delete the original "(d)" and substitute with "(h)"; to delete "the employment training support services for young people, enhance the existing Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme, and raise the level of the relevant subsidies" after "to review" and substitute with "and consolidate the various existing training programmes for youngsters, such as the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme ('YPTP & YWETS'), the Yi Jin Diploma programme and the Teen's Programme, etc.; and before completing the review, to raise the level of the subsidies under YPTP & YWETS"; to delete the original "(e)" and substitute with "(i)"; to add "(j) to enhance the practicability and effectiveness of the training and employment support structure for young people, and assist young people in joining industries which need new blood, such as the construction industry, transport industry and shipping industry;" after "one-stop LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2815
employment counselling;"; to delete the original "(f)" and substitute with "(k)"; to delete the original "(g)" and substitute with "(l)"; to delete "motivate employers to provide employees with 'training leave'" before ", including offering" and substitute with "conduct a study on enacting legislation to require an annual three-day paid training leave for all working persons in Hong Kong"; to delete the original "(h)" and substitute with "(m)"; to add "(n) to proactively approach long-term unemployed young people and hidden youths, and provide career counselling and support to them; (o) to extend and consolidate the various similar apprenticeship schemes, such as the Technician Apprenticeship (Traineeship) Training Scheme, Modern Apprenticeship Scheme as well as Beauty Care and Hairdressing Traineeship Scheme; (p) to subsidize young people from low-income families, particularly grass-root South Asian young people, to attend self-enrichment courses, so as to enhance their competitiveness in choosing career; (q) to adopt diversified methods and various concessionary measures to attract non-local enterprises to come to Hong Kong for making investment, and establishing new and emerging enterprises or industrial/commercial businesses, so as to create more jobs for Hong Kong and increase the employment and promotion opportunities for young people;" after "securing employment;"; to delete the original "(i)" and substitute with "(r)"; to delete "build more public rental housing ('PRH') flats" before ", and review" and substitute with "increase the annual production of public rental housing ('PRH') to 30 000 units or more"; to add "including studying the reasons for young people to apply for PRH as well as the required waiting time and allocation situation," after "applying for PRH,"; to add "; and at the same time to put forward measures, such as raising the household income ceiling and abolishing the well-off tenants policy, so as to encourage young people to live with their parents" after "PRH for young people"; to delete the original "(j)" and substitute with "(s)"; to delete the original "(k)" and substitute with "(t)"; to delete the original "(l)" and substitute with "(u)"; and to delete the original "(m)" and substitute with "(v)."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment, moved by Mr KWOK Wai-keung to Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion, be passed.
2816 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
Mr Jeffrey LAM rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Jeffrey LAM has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for five minutes.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Frederick FUNG, Ms Starry LEE, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Steven HO, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Mr POON Siu-ping and Mr TANG Ka-piu voted for the amendment.
Mr Vincent FANG, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr Kenneth LEUNG and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted against the amendment.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2817
Dr Joseph LEE, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Dr LAM Tai-fai, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Martin LIAO, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Tony TSE abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Mr WONG Kwok-kin, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Paul TSE, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Dr Helena WONG, Dr Elizabeth QUAT and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted for the amendment.
Dr Priscilla LEUNG abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 26 were present, 12 were in favour of the amendment, four against it and 10 abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 31 were present, 29 were in favour of the amendment and one abstained. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was negatived.
MR ANDREW LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, I move that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Caring about the education, employment, housing, home acquisition and business start-up problems faced by young people" or any amendments thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
2818 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr Andrew LEUNG be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Does any Member wish to speak?
(No Member indicated a wish to speak)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion passed.
I order that in the event of further divisions being claimed in respect of the motion on "Caring about the education, employment, housing, home acquisition and business start-up problems faced by young people" or any amendments thereto, this Council do proceed to each of such divisions immediately after the division bell has been rung for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, please move your amendment.
MR CHEUNG KWOK-CHE (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion be amended.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2819
Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che moved the following amendment: (Translation)
"To add ", given that" after "That"; to add ", the overly monotonous mode of the local economy" after "face of globalization"; to add "and set up a coordinating department responsible for youth affairs" after "mainly targeted at young people"; to add ", and fails to increase their social participation" after "housing and business start-up" to add "(a) to study the implementation of 19-year free education, including pre-primary education, so as to remove the obstacles to further education encountered by young people due to the lack of pre-primary education;" after "Education -"; to delete the original "(a)" and substitute with "(b)"; to delete "and" after "bachelor's degree programmes" and substitute with ", top-up degree programmes,"; to add "and sub-degree" after "types of diploma"; to delete the original "(b)" and substitute with "(c)"; to delete "to comprehensively review" before "the assistance" and substitute with "to review every three years"; to delete ", and" after "at 2.5%" and substitute with ", change the time to commence calculating interests under the Non-means Tested Loan Scheme to after borrowers' graduation,"; to add ", and shelve the study on adopting a credit information database" after "interest-free loans"; to delete the original "(c)" and substitute with "(d)"; to add "(e) to immediately alter the Social Welfare Department's requirement under which tertiary students with financial difficulties may only apply to the Student Financial Assistance Agency for the living expenses loan, and allow them to choose to apply for either the living expenses loan or Comprehensive Social Security Assistance to cope with the financial problems arising from their studies;" after "continuous education;"; to delete the original "(d)" and substitute with "(f)"; to delete the original "(e)" and substitute with "(g)"; to delete the original "(f)" and substitute with "(h)"; to delete the original "(g)" and substitute with "(i)"; to delete the original "(h)" and substitute with "(j)"; to add "(k) to amend the applicability of the Minimum Wage Ordinance to cover university student interns who work less than 59 days; (l) to make permanent the existing 3 000 Programme Worker posts created for young people;" after "securing employment;"; to delete the original "(i)" and substitute with "(m)"; to add "small" after "to build more"; to add ", such as raising the income ceiling and asset limits for PRH application, increasing the quota for singletons, improving the Quota and Points System and relaxing the definition of families eligible for PRH" after "applying for PRH"; to 2820 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
delete the original "(j)" and substitute with "(n)"; to delete the original "(k)" and substitute with "(o)"; to delete the original "(l)" and substitute with "(p)"; to delete "and" after "lack the capital;"; to delete the original "(m)" and substitute with "(q)"; and to add "; Social participation - (r) when formulating policies pertaining to young people, to step up online collection of young people's opinions and increase the channels of participation for them; (s) to conduct a study on arranging automatic registration for Hong Kong permanent residents aged 18 or above as electors, so as to encourage young people to participate in society and express their voices through the casting of votes" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment, moved by Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che to Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion, be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Mr IP Kwok-him rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kwok-him has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2821
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Frederick FUNG, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr IP Kin-yuen and Mr POON Siu-ping voted for the amendment.
Mr Vincent FANG, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Ms Starry LEE, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Steven HO, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr Martin LIAO, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted against the amendment.
Dr Joseph LEE, Dr LAM Tai-fai, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr TANG Ka-piu and Mr Tony TSE abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai and Dr Helena WONG voted for the amendment.
Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Paul TSE, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Dr Elizabeth QUAT, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted against the amendment.
Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr WONG Kwok-kin and Miss Alice MAK abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
2822 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 26 were present, six were in favour of the amendment, 13 against it and seven abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 32 were present, 18 were in favour of the amendment, 10 against it and three abstained. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was negatived.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN Yuen-han, please move your amendment.
MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): President, I move my revised amendment to further amend ……
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Miss CHAN, you do not have to revise your amendment. You may just move your amendment. Please refer to page 12 of the script.
MISS CHAN YUEN-HAN (in Cantonese): I see. Thank you, President. President, I move that Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion be amended.
Miss CHAN Yuen-han moved the following amendment: (Translation)
"To add ", given that" after "That"; to delete "$20,000, and" after "each applicant to" and substitute with "$40,000,"; to add "to 10 years, and abolish the restriction on applicants to make a maximum of four reimbursement claims" after "by the scheme"; to delete "motivate employers to provide employees with 'training leave'" after "development; (g) to" and substitute with "conduct a study on enacting legislation to require an annual three-day paid training leave for all working persons in Hong Kong"; to add "(l) as it is noticed that quite a number of industrial building revitalization projects have been transformed into real estate and hotel projects, forcing many art workers stationed in such buildings to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2823
leave, the authorities must, while balancing housing and tourism needs, also have regard to preserving room for young people's work in cultural and creative industries by, for example, requiring property owners, when applying for industrial building revitalization, to reserve 20% of their premises as lower-rent areas for renting to young people who strive for development in the fields of creativity, culture and arts, etc.; (m) to set up creative industry parks in various districts for the provision of studios with stable rents and long-term tenancy agreements to young people who aspire to a career in creativity, culture and arts; (n) to set up a handicraft apprenticeship training scheme, and having regard to the local cultural features of various districts, to reserve land or certain buildings under conservation and relax the land use restrictions on vacant sites, so as to train young people for engaging in work on creativity or with traditional characteristics, such as arts fairs, music performances, dragon boat training and fireworks production, etc.;" after "Business start-up -"; to delete the original "(l)" and substitute with "(o)"; to delete "and" after "lack the capital;" and substitute with "(p) to increase the budget for arts, and raise the annual estimates for Hong Kong Arts Development Council, the Leisure and Cultural Services Department and major performing arts groups for creating additional placements, so as to provide young art workers with more placement opportunities; and"; to delete the original "(m)" and substitute with "(q)"; and to add ", and to set up a dedicated fund under the Film Development Fund to provide subsidies to young directors" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the amendment, moved by Miss CHAN Yuen-han to Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion, be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
2824 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
Mr Jeffrey LAM rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Jeffrey LAM has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Albert HO, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Steven HO, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr POON Siu-ping and Mr TANG Ka-piu voted for the amendment.
Mr Vincent FANG, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Mr Kenneth LEUNG and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted against the amendment.
Dr Joseph LEE, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Dr LAM Tai-fai, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Tony TSE abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr CHAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2825
Hak-kan, Mr WONG Kwok-kin, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Paul TSE, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Dr Helena WONG, Dr Elizabeth QUAT, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted for the amendment.
Mr CHAN Han-pan voted against the amendment.
Dr Priscilla LEUNG abstained.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 26 were present, 15 were in favour of the amendment, five against it and six abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 32 were present, 29 were in favour of the amendment, one against it and one abstained. Since the question was agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Members have already been informed, as Miss CHAN Yuen-han's amendment has been passed, Mr Jeffrey LAM and Mr Charles Peter MOK have withdrawn their amendments.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Kenneth CHAN, as the amendment of Miss CHAN Yuen-han has been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
DR KENNETH CHAN (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han be further amended by my revised amendment.
2826 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Dr Kenneth CHAN moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han: (Translation)
"To add "; Education - (r) to enhance the regulation of the Continuing Education Fund programmes eligible for subsidies; (s) to increase the places for top-up degree programmes for sub-degree programmes; Employment - (t) to implement the relevant recommendations for improvement on the Youth Pre-employment Training Programme and Youth Work Experience and Training Scheme and training for young people in Chapter 10 of the Director of Audit's Report No. 59; Housing and home acquisition - (u) to provide a certain quantity of 'flats with limited floor areas'; (v) to raise the requirements of the ad valorem stamp duty for the consideration of a transaction, so as to reduce the financial burden on young people who are first-time home buyers; Social participation - (w) to convene youth summits annually for conducting comprehensive discussions on the education, employment, housing and other problems faced by young people; (x) to set indicators for the ratio of youth participation in statutory and advisory bodies, so as to enable young people to participate more in the process of formulating policies in various respects; and (y) to comprehensively review the functions and composition of the Commission on Youth, so as to enable the Commission to better promote policies pertaining to young people in various respects" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Dr Kenneth CHAN's amendment to Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2827
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the amendment passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Dr Helena WONG, as the amendments of Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Dr Kenneth CHAN have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
DR HELENA WONG (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Dr Kenneth CHAN be further amended by my revised amendment.
Dr Helena WONG moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Dr Kenneth CHAN: (Translation)
"To add "(z) to reserve a sufficient number of Master of Philosophy and Doctor of Philosophy programme places in graduate schools for local university graduates, so as to provide them with opportunities for further study and nurture local academic research talents;" after "continuous education;"."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Dr Helena WONG's amendment to Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Dr Kenneth CHAN be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
2828 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Mr CHAN Kam-lam rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Kam-lam has claimed a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Albert HO, Mr Frederick FUNG, Ms Starry LEE, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Steven HO, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr IP Kin-yuen and Mr POON Siu-ping voted for the amendment.
Mr Vincent FANG, Dr LAM Tai-fai, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Mr Charles Peter MOK, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr Kenneth LEUNG, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Martin LIAO, Mr TANG Ka-piu, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok, Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan and Mr Tony TSE voted against the amendment.
Dr Joseph LEE, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG and Dr LEUNG Ka-lau abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Mr Paul TSE, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2829
Chi-chuen, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Dr Helena WONG, Dr Elizabeth QUAT, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHUNG voted for the amendment.
Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr WONG Kwok-kin, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Michael TIEN and Miss Alice MAK voted against the amendment.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 27 were present, nine were in favour of the amendment, 14 against it and four abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 32 were present, 25 were in favour of the amendment and six against it. Since the question was not agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was negatived.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr IP Kin-yuen, as the amendments of Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Dr Kenneth CHAN have been passed, you may now move your revised amendment.
MR IP KIN-YUEN (in Cantonese): President, I move that Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Dr Kenneth CHAN be further amended by my revised amendment.
Mr IP Kin-yuen moved the following further amendment to the motion as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Dr Kenneth CHAN: (Translation)
"To add "; Education - (z) to increase publicly-funded sub-degree programme places; (aa) to review the impact of subsidized tertiary institutions admitting mainland students on local students' opportunities of enrollment to programmes of bachelor degrees, master degrees and 2830 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
doctoral degrees; (ab) to provide resources to schools for offering non-academic students quality practical courses or skills training programmes with articulation channels as another pathway under the new academic structure; (ac) to comprehensively review the policy on university hostel places, expand campus boundaries for constructing additional campus buildings and hostels, so as to cope with the needs of university students; and (ad) to increase the subsidies for evening schools to encourage young people to pursue lifelong learning" immediately before the full stop."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That Mr IP Kin-yuen's amendment to Mr CHAN Hak-kan's motion as amended by Miss CHAN Yuen-han and Dr Kenneth CHAN be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you as stated. Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(Members raised their hands)
Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok rose to claim a division.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok rose to claim a division. The division bell will ring for one minute.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please proceed to vote.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2831
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please check their votes. If there are no queries, voting shall now stop and the result will be displayed.
Functional Constituencies:
Mr Albert HO, Mr Frederick FUNG, Mr Vincent FANG, Ms Starry LEE, Dr LAM Tai-fai, Dr LEUNG Ka-lau, Mr CHEUNG Kwok-che, Mr IP Kwok-him, Mr Steven HO, Mr MA Fung-kwok, Miss CHAN Yuen-han, Mr KWOK Wai-keung, Mr Dennis KWOK, Mr IP Kin-yuen, Mr POON Siu-ping, Mr TANG Ka-piu and Mr CHUNG Kwok-pan voted for the amendment.
Mr Charles Peter MOK and Mr Kenneth LEUNG voted against the amendment.
Dr Joseph LEE, Mr Jeffrey LAM, Mr Andrew LEUNG, Mr CHAN Kin-por, Mr YIU Si-wing, Mr Martin LIAO, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok and Mr Tony TSE abstained.
Geographical Constituencies:
Mr LEE Cheuk-yan, Mr CHAN Kam-lam, Mr LEUNG Yiu-chung, Ms Emily LAU, Mr WONG Kwok-hing, Mr Ronny TONG, Ms Cyd HO, Mr CHAN Hak-kan, Dr Priscilla LEUNG, Mr WONG Kwok-kin, Mrs Regina IP, Mr Paul TSE, Mr Alan LEONG, Mr LEUNG Kwok-hung, Mr Albert CHAN, Mr WONG Yuk-man, Ms Claudia MO, Mr Michael TIEN, Mr WU Chi-wai, Mr Gary FAN, Mr CHAN Chi-chuen, Mr CHAN Han-pan, Dr Kenneth CHAN, Miss Alice MAK, Dr KWOK Ka-ki, Dr Fernando CHEUNG, Mr SIN Chung-kai, Dr Helena WONG, Dr Elizabeth QUAT, Dr CHIANG Lai-wan and Mr Christopher CHEUNG voted for the amendment.
THE PRESIDENT, Mr Jasper TSANG, did not cast any vote.
THE PRESIDENT announced that among the Members returned by functional constituencies, 27 were present, 17 were in favour of the amendment, two against 2832 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 it and eight abstained; while among the Members returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, 32 were present and 31 were in favour of the amendment. Since the question was agreed by a majority of each of the two groups of Members present, he therefore declared that the amendment was passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHAN Hak-kan, you may now reply and you have one minute 58 seconds.
MR CHAN HAK-KAN (in Cantonese): President, this "four-pronged" motion has been moved in the last term, but it is not the same old tune as I have incorporated the amendments moved by Members in the last term. President, as you can see, the four-leaf clover on my chest has already turned yellow due to the filibustering. Fortunately, the active participation of Members in the discussion has prevented it from dwindling.
I recall that I had once met a young man who works as a salesman. Although he works very hard, his salary is not high and his girlfriend therefore refused to marry him because he does not own any property. President, this is not an individual problem, but is prevalent in our society. I beg the Secretary not to blame the young people for holding so many grudges with the community and the Government, because you have not looked seriously at the problems faced by them. Though you have made a lot of responses just now, they may not address young people's needs.
I notice that colleagues have just put forward a number of concrete proposals, which are indeed practicable. The question is whether or not the Government will put them in place and how they will be implemented. Our youth is limited and young people's decade will come and go. I hope that the Government will genuinely act at once and make good use of the time to formulate a youth policy.
President, I so submit.
LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2833
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now put the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Mr CHAN Hak-kan, as amended by Mr CHAN Yuen-han, Dr Kenneth CHAN and Mr IP Kin-yuen, be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will those in favour please raise their hands?
(Members raised their hands)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Those against please raise their hands.
(No hands raised)
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I think the question is agreed by a majority respectively of each of the two groups of Members, that is, those returned by functional constituencies and those returned by geographical constituencies through direct elections, who are present. I declare the motion as amended passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): It is unlikely that we can finish all the items on the Agenda before midnight today. I will suspend the meeting at around 10 pm.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Third motion: Domestic free television programme service licence applications.
Members who wish to speak in the debate on the motion will please press the "Request to speak" button.
I now call upon Ms Claudia MO to speak and move the motion.
DOMESTIC FREE TELEVISION PROGRAMME SERVICE LICENCE APPLICATIONS
MS CLAUDIA MO (in Cantonese): President, I move that the motion, as printed on the Agenda, be passed.
2834 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
That the progress of vetting the three applications for domestic free television programme service licences (free TV licences) has always been of major concern to the society, but the Government has all along been indecisive about the applications, suggesting that there are unspeakable reasons which make people worry that political factors are involved; in this connection, this Council puts forward the following views and recommendations, and urges the relevant authorities to respond positively, including:
(a) given that the Government has been promoting a pluralistic and open society and the Chief Executive has emphasized time and again his intention of doing real work, but on the applications for free TV licences, the Government has adopted a stalling tactic and has not made a decision after almost three years, this Council therefore requests the Government to undertake to issue additional free TV licences before the end of this year;
(b) given that in Hong Kong a considerable number of young people enrol in courses relating to television production, but due to the limited size of the free television market, they can hardly pursue their ambitions after graduation, and the granting of additional free TV licences can increase employment opportunities for these young people and facilitate the development of creative media, the Government should proactively dovetail with the relevant policies and measures; and
(c) given that a free television broadcaster which has kept airing reruns to fill up air time allegedly contravenes its undertaking on producing local programmes, the Government should make the vetting process of free TV licence applications open and transparent to dispel public misgivings, and keep pace with the times by updating the relevant broadcasting ordinances and codes of practice.
President, before I speak, I wish to clarify one point. In my original motion which is in Chinese, I propose that, "要求政府承諾於今年年底前發 出額外免費電視牌照 " (requests the Government to undertake to issue additional free TV licences before the end of this year). The Chinese term "額 外" (additional) can mean one licence, while the word "licenses" in "additional free TV licences" in the English version of the original motion is in plural form, LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2835 meaning two licences or more. I would like to clarify that the Chinese term "額 外" (additional) in the original motion means "two licences or more".
President, in 1998 ― that is, one year after the reunification ― the SAR Government had already stated in black and white that there would be no limit on the number of domestic free television licences, and no exclusive right or franchise in respect free television programme service would be granted, and no royalties would be charged. Nonetheless, over a long period of time in the past, we have witnessed the dominance of one broadcaster. While Television Broadcasts Limited (TVB) is undoubtedly a success story, we want to see more success stories of this kind in Hong Kong. The truth is that we need competition.
Some hold that it is undesirable to allow more free television broadcasters in the market because vicious competition will be resulted as the "pie" is just that big. Nonetheless, President, there is hardly any healthy competition, let alone vicious competition, in the market. Such arguments do not hold water.
In December 2009, that is, three years ago, the Government made an open appeal to interested parties to apply for free TV licences. Eventually, applications were submitted by three organizations, namely, City Telecom (HK) Limited, Fantastic Television Limited and HK Television Entertainment Company Limited. With the green light given by the Government, the former Broadcasting Authority (BA) ― that is, the predecessor of the current Communications Authority (CA) ― had also indicated that the matter was feasible. Subsequently, the BA made positive recommendations on the applications to the Chief Executive in Council for consideration in mid-2011, that is, around summer. However, why has the entire process been dragging on for three years? As a colloquial Cantonese saying goes, "How many decades can a man live to see?" For the ever-changing television industry, how can the matter be allowed to drag on for three years after three years?
Let us review some old information. After the reunification, it normally takes about one year for the Government to vet and approve the applications for television and radio licences. Hence, we are puzzled by the Government's filibustering on this matter. Why does the Government keep on stalling? There is no problem at all in terms of technology, capital and manpower.
2836 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
Some hold that the advertising market can hardly accommodate more free television broadcasters because the "pie" is just that big. Nonetheless, the relevant figures are subject to interpretation. In the real world, advertisers are also consumers and hence, they should also be given a choice. If the decrease in advertisement revenue is cited as a reason …… In a letter issued yesterday ― I think many Honourable colleagues also received this letter ― TVB cited many figures to show that its advertising revenue was unsatisfactory. Notwithstanding, as consumers, advertisers should also be given a choice. Is it because TVB has dominated the market and charged expensive rates that advertisers chose not to purchase its advertising slots?
Views have also been expressed in the community that political considerations are involved. President, I had written an open commentary in a newspaper early this year titled, Dominance of one television station is a political question. In this article, I pointed out that seemingly, the SAR Government must be accountable to Beijing in the matter of exercising ideological control in Hong Kong, because ― like the Pope is Catholic, free television is of course provided free-of-charge ― given that free television is free, it can penetrate into the general households and easily sway or even lead public opinion. One careless mistake suffices to bring in several unbridled horses which may run amok and easily become uncontrollable.
President, I reckoned at that time that my article would attract refutation. But it had not attracted any comments. According to a recent public opinion survey conducted by the University of Hong Kong (HKU), one fourth of Hong Kong people consider that the Government has stalled in the matter of issuing free TV licences, and political factors are involved. Both this opinion survey of the HKU and another opinion survey conducted by The Chinese University of Hong Kong find that four out of five persons want to see new free television licences in Hong Kong …… Perhaps I should say new free television broadcasters because we cannot actually see the licences and hence, it should be new free television broadcasters. This message is loud and clear.
President, according to another view in the community, the Government is worried about the ensuing legal challenges in the form of judicial review applications made by existing free television broadcasters once the free TV licences are issued. However, the two existing free TV licencees, namely, TVB and Asia Television Limited (ATV) do not enjoy any exclusive rights. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2837
Moreover, there are no specifications on the number of television programme service providers in the licensing conditions as well as the relevant laws. By common sense, the Government has not breached any undertakings in this regard.
After all, from the perspective of communication ideology, if the Government defends its case on the ground of "public interest", stating that television programme service providers should serve the people, and terrestrial airwaves are public resources, the Court will definitely rule in its favour. On the contrary, I am concerned about the validity of another view, that is, the Government has been waiting impatiently for the applicants of free TV licences to apply for judicial review. In that case, the applicants would be playing straight into the Government's hands for it can withhold the issuance of licences on the excuse that legal proceedings are pending. This can well justify the Government's further stalling.
President, aside from being a creative industry, the television industry is also a major area of economic activity in Hong Kong, providing jobs and on-the-job training for the people. Our motion debate on future prospects of young people has lasted the whole afternoon, touching on various aspects including their need for benefits. A considerable number of young people have enrolled in the Hong Kong Academy for Performing Arts, the Hong Kong Institute of Vocational Education or the School of Creative Media of the City University of Hong Kong to study television production courses in relation to directing, screenwriting, lighting, props, as well as training to be front-line actors.
Like Hollywood, Hong Kong has bred many superstars who invariably began their career in the television industry, such as CHOW Yun-fat, Liza WANG and Sean LAU who recently won the Golden Horse Best Actor trophy. Likewise, celebrated directors such as Johnny TO, TSUI Hark, Ann HUI, WONG Kar-Wai, and many others to be named, also started their career in the television industry.
President, nowadays, healthy competition is absent in the free television industry. Some television programmes with repeated airings have even attracted criticisms from viewers. I was told by a Mr LAM that he had lodged complaints with the CA about ATV's continuous airing reruns of a particular Mid-Autumn Festival night show, ATV Miss Asia Beauty Pageant 2012 and News Bar Talk on 23 October 2012. However, according to the CA's reply, there are currently no 2838 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 provisions in the broadcasting legislation and the relevant codes of practice regulating the airing of reruns. It turns out that the airing of reruns is a lawless territory.
President, as far as I know, according to the undertaking on the production of local programmes entered into between free television programme service providers and the Government, the providers are required to air several hundred hours of locally-produced programmes a week. But insofar as the present situation is concerned, if a broadcaster produces a three-hour programme and then reruns it thrice, will this be taken to mean that nine hours of programmes have been produced? Is that the case? I hope the Secretary can give us a detailed explanation later.
Members may recall that "ATV Focus", a news commentary programme, is also quite controversial. In an episode aired this summer, the narrator described young students of the Scholarism who opposed national education as members of the "destructive party"; he also described them as political pawns in the Legislative Council elections, and worse still, wilful "young ruffians". The presentation and production of this programme has allegedly violated the Generic Code …… (The Member coughed) Pardon me, the meeting has indeed run too late. President, I am sorry. This programme has allegedly breached the requirement under the Generic Code of Practice on Television Programme Standards that the licensee "must ensure that due impartiality is preserved as respects news programmes and any factual programmes".
Recently, ATV has been alleged of abusing public resources for private purpose in broadcasting an entertainment show called "Concern for Hong Kong's future". As the live broadcast of the show takes up the television broadcasting time slots through terrestrial airwaves, ATV has publicized messages for its own benefits. Viewers thus have the impression that some people are trying to influence the Government's vetting process of free TV licences. As an existing free TV licensee with vested interest in the matter, ATV's action has aroused the public to query whether the anti-competition provisions under the broadcasting legislation has been violated, given the potential impact on restricting competition of television programmes in the market.
President, as it is quite late now, I do not want to speak for long or use up my speaking time. Hong Kong indeed needs new free television broadcasters. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2839
We need to bring in new competition and a new scene; even more so, we need new superstars, and 7 million viewers, that is, the 7 million people in Hong Kong need new information and entertainment choices. I hope the Government will definitely issue the licences before the end of this year
Thank you, President.
Ms Claudia MO moved the following motion: (Translation)
"That the progress of vetting the three applications for domestic free television programme service licences (free TV licences) has always been of major concern to the society, but the Government has all along been indecisive about the applications, suggesting that there are unspeakable reasons which make people worry that political factors are involved; in this connection, this Council puts forward the following views and recommendations, and urges the relevant authorities to respond positively, including:
(a) given that the Government has been promoting a pluralistic and open society and the Chief Executive has emphasized time and again his intention of doing real work, but on the applications for free TV licences, the Government has adopted a stalling tactic and has not made a decision after almost three years, this Council therefore requests the Government to undertake to issue additional free TV licences before the end of this year;
(b) given that in Hong Kong a considerable number of young people enrol in courses relating to television production, but due to the limited size of the free television market, they can hardly pursue their ambitions after graduation, and the granting of additional free TV licences can increase employment opportunities for these young people and facilitate the development of creative media, the Government should proactively dovetail with the relevant policies and measures; and
(c) given that a free television broadcaster which has kept airing reruns to fill up air time allegedly contravenes its undertaking on producing local programmes, the Government should make the 2840 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012
vetting process of free TV licence applications open and transparent to dispel public misgivings, and keep pace with the times by updating the relevant broadcasting ordinances and codes of practice."
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now propose the question to you and that is: That the motion moved by Ms Claudia MO be passed.
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Four Members wish to move amendments to this motion. This Council will now proceed to a joint debate on the motion and the four amendments.
I will first call upon Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok to speak, to be followed by Mr SIN Chung-kai, Mr Gary FAN and Ms Emily LAU respectively; but they may not move the amendments at this stage.
IR DR LO WAI-KWOK (in Cantonese): President, we have this motion debate in the Council today because the processing of the three applications for domestic free television programme service licences (free TV licences) has been dragging on for quite some time and to date, the Government has still not announced the application results, causing various speculations in society. If this uncertainty drags on, it will not be beneficial to the Government, as well as to the existing and new operators in the industry.
Before proposing any specific solutions to the issue, we should, first of all, ascertain the Government's role in promoting the development of local television industry. In my view, the Government has two main roles: firstly, as the rule-maker of the game and secondly, as the regulator of the industry.
As the rule-maker of the game, the Government must ensure that, on the one hand, the rules it formulated are in line with the three major principles of fairness, impartiality and openness, and on the other hand, procedural justice can be implemented once the rules of the game have been formulated. I believe that so long as the Government upholds these principles in formulating and LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2841 implementing its policies, it can easily gain the understanding of and support from various sectors in the community.
In a real-life social environment, the formulation and implementation of policies are both complicated and intricate. The Government must perform the role of striking the right balance among different parties in respect of policy objectives and the interests of different stakeholders. Regarding the development of local television industry, in order to provide a suitable business environment for the industry, the Administration's policy objective must seek to maintain the right balance between fair competition and sustainable development. As for stakeholders, the parties concerned are not only limited to the existing operators and the applicants for new licences, but also include the viewing public as well. The Government must balance and take into consideration of the interests of all stakeholders.
Hence, comparing with the vetting of applications for free TV licences, the more important question is whether the SAR Government has formulated the directions and strategies of long-term development for the television industry? If the market is to be opened up for competition, what is the optimal level? What corresponding changes should be made to the existing market mechanisms? What is the optimum number of new free TV licences to be issued? Of course, when considering these questions, the Government must have a broad vision with the entire television industry in view; it should not only focus on free television, but should also consider pay television and the development of multi-media television industry on the Internet as well, so as to make long-term and holistic deliberations. The SAR Government should give a detailed and clear account of the above strategic matters to this Council and the public.
President, the three applications for free TV licences involved in this debate have aroused heated discussions in the community. In fact, the matter had already gone through public consultation. It is also learnt that the relevant departments had already completed all the procedures, and the recommendations had already been submitted by the last-term Government to the Chief Executive in Council for consideration as early as end-2011. Almost three years have passed and the Government has yet to make a decision. It is indeed baffling.
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According to a recent survey, 85% of the respondents support the issuance of new free TV licences by the Government. Hence, in order to avoid any unnecessary speculation in the community, and even more so, to demonstrate that the authorities have upheld procedural justice, I consider that the current-term Government should decide on the matter and issue additional free TV licences as soon as possible within a reasonable period. Otherwise, the authorities must provide a reasonable explanation to the public. As to what is a reasonable period, while the original motion requests that a decision be made by the Government before the end of this year, it is already late November now, and not much time is left. Therefore, I consider that we might as well give the Government more time and a wider scope to make the necessary preparations properly. I suggest that the deadline be extended to the end of March next year. I think Members would find this suggestion agreeable.
In respect of promoting the development of local television industry, the Government has another role to play as well, namely, the regulator of the industry. While the Government must ensure the vetting process of free TV licence applications open and transparent in order to dispel public misgivings, it would be most important for the Government to ensure that the Broadcasting Ordinances and the relevant codes of practice can keep pace with the times and, on a fair and equal basis, apply across the board to existing free TV licensees and operators joining the competition in the future.
President, the cultural and creative industry is one of the six pillar industries where Hong Kong enjoys clear advantages; of which, the television industry is undoubtedly an important component. Over the years, Hong Kong's television industry has produced many high-quality dramas and programmes that are very popular in overseas Chinese communities. Also, the industry has nurtured many outstanding talents in screenwriting, directing and acting who have made spectacular achievements. Hence, promoting the development of local television industry will not only help nurture a pluralistic culture and innovation in Hong Kong, but also stimulate economic growth and create job opportunities.
As a matter of fact, a considerable number of young people have enrolled in the relevant multi-media courses. In order to increase employment opportunities for these young people and facilitate the development of creative media, the Government should proactively formulate its policies and measures to LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2843 promote the sustainable development of local television industry. This should also be an important factor to be duly considered by the Government when making decision on the applications for free TV licences.
President, I so submit.
MR SIN CHUNG-KAI (in Cantonese): President, the amendments I propose today are very simple. Of course, I support Ms Claudia MO's original motion, that is, the demand that the Government should issue domestic free television programme service licences (free TV licences). In respect of the timing, Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok suggests that the deadline be extended by three months. I believe that this is not the crux of the issue, and I can give my support to both suggestions. Regarding my amendment, given that the licences of the existing two free television broadcasters will expire in November 2015, and before that, the Government should consider and study the proposal of putting up the broadcasters' exclusive spectra for public auction as early as possible, so as to allow applicants intending to apply for free TV licences to apply for the licence for broadcasting business, or bid for the licences through auction proceedings.
President, there are only two scenarios in this matter. The first one is that the Government will not issue the three free TV licences. What will happen then? When the time comes for licence renewal, other competitors intending to join the market would ask the Government why it only issues licences to these two television broadcasters, but not new operators. In that case, the Government would need to make a choice, that is, whether to issue licences to the three new operators or maintain the status quo with the two existing broadcasters. It is very clear that three operators now intend to join the market and compete; if the Government only issues licences to the two existing broadcasters and refuses to consider issuing licences to the other three new operators, disputes would arise.
The second scenario is that the Government will issue the licences. In such cases, two television broadcasters would transmit their programmes through terrestrial airwaves which are free, or only incurs a small amount of royalty or operation fee, while the other three broadcasters will transmit their programmes through optical fibre. As we all know, the cost of optical fibre is very high as it involves ground-digging and renting optical fibre from others. Problems will thus arise. The three broadcasters which transmit their programmes through 2844 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 optical fibre would then ask the Government why these spectra cannot be put up for auction, and why fair competition cannot be upheld, so that all broadcasters can be given a choice? Hence, I propose this amendment today with the primary objective of urging the Government to consider putting up the spectra for auction. Actually, is something that will happen in three years' time very remote? In fact, in considering the system of auction, we need to conduct consultation and several rounds of work, hence the Government should give early consideration to this matter.
Going back to the auction of spectra, it is definitely nothing new. Members would know that since 2001 or 2002, a total of some 400 megahertz (MHz) of mobile phone radio spectrum had already been auctioned off, bringing in substantial revenue in the range of $12 billion for the Government. Hence, the Government is very experienced in putting up spectra for auction, and it cannot refuse to do so, on the pretext of not knowing what to do.
The auction of spectra is relatively just and fair. Will it be unfair, as wealthy businessmen would have an advantage? While this may be possible to a certain extent, the process is, like land auction, at least an open auction, and the Government can avoid criticisms of backroom deals. I can easily imagine that when the time comes for licence renewal, hundreds of people would besiege Asia Television Limited (ATV) and object to its licence renewal. What explanation will be given by the Government? At that time, if the Government has gone through an open auction process, it will not be put in a position of being criticized for making backroom deals or being partial to a particular television broadcaster.
Of course, looking further, it would be easy to imagine what will happen in 15 or 20 years' time. Members would know that at present, in the 470 MHz to 806 MHz frequency band for television broadcast service, only two frequencies are assigned as digital spectrum; if reference is made to the spectrum plan, primarily, the two frequencies of channel 35 and channel 37 are assigned for digital television broadcast service. Let me repeat, channel 35 and channel 37, that is, the two frequencies of 586 MHz and 602 MHz are assigned for the use of digital television broadcast service.
By the time of sunset for analogue television services, or more simply put, when analogue television services are to be phased out completely ― which is a longer timeframe that we are talking about ― all analogue television sets in use LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2845 now would have to be replaced. When the sun sets, many spectra will be available by then, which I believe they can be owned or used by other television broadcasters, and the Government must also identify some solutions, such as how to auction them off, and so on.
President, what am I trying to say? The Government should adopt a totally open mode for its broadcasting policy. In the past few days, Television Broadcasts Limited (TVB) had opposed in a high-profile or low-profile manner the issuance of free TV licences. In its paper provided to Members, three major questions were asked, namely, first, how many licences will be issued, second, who should be issued with the licences; and third, when will the licences be issued. I want to take this opportunity to respond to these three questions. Although these questions are asked by TVB, I think they are worth considering.
The first question is about how many licences will be issued. In the past, the Government has all along supported the so-called free market system, and if the Government really believes in a free market, it should leave the decision to the market. In fact, as mentioned by Ms Claudia MO in her opening speech, the Government had already clearly stated in 1998 that on the premise of technology-neutral, there should be no limit on the number of free TV licences; and the authorities could also consider other transmission means to deliver domestic free television services which were technologically viable. Hence, in this regard, the Government had already stated very clearly as early as 1998 that the market must be opened up.
Hence, how many licences will be issued, say, two, three, four or five? It would depend on the market. Let us consider the current situation: in respect of advertising revenue. According to the information provided to us by TVB, of the advertising revenue in 2011, TVB accounted for $2.8 billion, and ATV $100 million. It clearly illustrates the uneven distribution as TVB had taken up some 96% of the revenue. It is simply a matter of survival for the fittest ― will any television broadcaster close down if one more competitor joins the market? It is hardly surprising, but if ATV can survive on an advertising revenue of just $100 million, it may be able to tide over due to some other reasons, maybe the relentless support from one shareholder. President, we might as well let the market decide how many licences should be issued, rather than to be decided by the Government based on the wishes of senior officials. Regarding the question of who should be issued with a licence, discussion is necessary.
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With regard to the spectra, the Government can put up the spectra for auction. That is the Government's current approach for the telecommunications market. During our earlier discussion at a subcommittee on subsidiary legislation, the Government indicated that upon the release of new spectra, any foreign company which has successfully bid for the spectra can operate 4G services. By the same token, if an auction system is introduced by the Government for all spectra, the successful bidder can operate television broadcast service.
However, in the meantime, as the Government opens up the market, I want to take this opportunity to say a few words for TVB. In fact, if the Government adopts a totally open mode or free mode to allow free competition, it should impose less limitation and regulation on television broadcasters, for example, advertising restrictions that may be imposed, the advertising time limit during prime time, or even the restriction that news anchors must cover the outer panels of notebook computers as shown in the screen to prevent viewers from knowing the brands, and so on. If the Government adopts a totally open mode for the issuance of licences, it should in fact reduce all such limitations to the minimum; if a totally open mode is adopted, all these restrictions are in fact unnecessary. Of course, control must be imposed regarding matters relating to the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance because these matters are still controlled by the laws of Hong Kong, which needs not and cannot be exempted.
On this premise, the Government should allow television broadcasters of different scales to engage in full competition freely, and it is no longer necessary to impose restriction through various bureaucratic means. Even if a television broadcaster broadcasts two hours of commercials for famous brands during prime time, it is alright so long as there are viewers, and there are still three or four other broadcasters available for members of the public to choose from.
President, the third question is about when the licences will be issued. In fact, the question is very simple: the licences should have been issued long ago, and no application should be stalled for so long. Honestly speaking, if the Government will not issue any licence, it should tell the applicants that no licence will be issued. However, the Government neither issues the licences nor takes any action, and it just keeps on stalling and procrastinating. What does it want after all? This is really an act of maladministration.
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Hence, I hope that the Government can formulate a macro broadcasting policy and adopts some totally open measures or policies, so as to let the market decide on the number of licences to be issued. The Government should specify the minimum eligibility requirements to be met by applicants before free TV licences would be issued, such as the requirement on the hours of television programme for each channel. In future, the Government should release spectra by means of auction in accordance with the fairest and most open principles so that competitors will have the room for free fighting, which can in turn bring the broadcasting industry in Hong Kong to a new level.
Thank you, President.
MR GARY FAN (in Cantonese): President, we are discussing this issue of "Domestic free television programme service licence" again. Hong Kong people have waited three years for the Government to open up the free television market and we have discussed this issue for more than 1 000 days. At this moment, the Government has still not specified its position on the issuance of licences, and it adopts an attitude of "watching the fire from the other side of the river". Secretary Gregory SO had, since his assumption of the post as the Undersecretary for Commerce and Economic Development, been following up on this licensing issue for more than 1 000 days. He has never told Hong Kong people when a new domestic free television licence will be issued, and he has even failed to give a clear account of the licence application procedures. Earlier, he even ridiculed an investor, Mr Ricky WONG, for making reckless investment. He has totally disregarded Hong Kong people's aspirations for opening up the terrestrial airwaves and introducing competition. In view of the performance of Secretary Gregory SO in processing the applications for free television programme service licences (fee TV licences), and his earlier refusal to intervene in the DBC incident, either he has to take up a special political task or he is derelict of his duty.
President, the humble wish of Hong Kong people is to return home after work and turn on the television to enjoy a good show every day. However, we can now only choose to watch stereotyped television dramas produced by the "slapdash" station, the contents of which are either about rivalry for wealth, or imperial concubines competing for master's favour; or to watch reruns and 2848 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 foreign programmes of the "Hong Kong conscience station". We may even have to watch programmes with more complainants than viewers.
President, I would like to share with Honourable colleagues a joke circulated on the Internet. An internet user said that he went to ATV for an interview and he was asked to name 10 ATV programmes. But, he could only name a few, including the news programmes, the horse racing programmes produced by the Hong Kong Jockey Club and the programme "Telefishion" shown at late night. We do not know if the joke is true or not, but it revealed certain facts. In recent years, apart from Mr Asia Election, Miss Asia Election, "I want to be the Chief Executive" and news programmes, ATV barely produced any programmes, and it has even used part of the digital television channels to broadcast programmes of television stations in Southern China.
What has this situation reflected? It reflects that the standard of the television industry in Hong Kong has declined due to insufficient competition. ATV claimed that the viewership ratio between ATV and TVB was 4:6, but according to the television viewership rates announced last week by SRG, a market research company, four ATV programmes had zero viewers. These programmes are "Blog the World", "News Bar Talk", "Vision International Finance" and "A Movie Special". The viewers (Hong Kong people) have taken actions to express their dissatisfaction with ATV, which also reflect that the so-called choices of free television broadcasters in Hong Kong actually do not exist.
Just now, Ms Claudia MO has also mentioned that two programmes produced by ATV which undoubtedly, have recently caused social reverberations. One of them is "ATV Focus" which labelled Joshua WONG, Scholarism and a group of Legislative Council Members belonging to the pan-democratic camp as members of a "destructive party", just because we do not support brainwashing national education. More than 40 000 people have complained to the Communications Authority (CA), setting a precedent that the number of complainants is higher than that of viewers.
Another ATV programme which has aroused public concern is the "Concern for Hong Kong's Future" rally recently held in the name of Asia Club. This programme has obviously used public resources for private purposes and has distorted the facts. It is also suspected that ATV employees were forced to show LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2849 up to indicate support, thus the programme is a political advertisement, disseminating information against competition and nakedly safeguarding the interests of ATV.
On that day, Claudia MO and I arrived at the scene and we wanted to talk to the persons in charge of ATV. Nevertheless, Mr WANG Zheng, ATV's major investor, evaded meeting with us. He even arranged a group of overstaying Mr Asia contestants to act as human shields to separate him from us. He clamored inside the enclosed area, holding high the placards. Such a "rotten show" is definitely unfair and inaccurate, and it has even violated the provisions in Chapter 9 of the Generic Code of Practice on Television Programme Standards on "Accuracy, Impartiality and Fairness" of the licensees.
President, according to the finding of the survey conducted by the Community Development Initiative commissioned by the Public Opinion Programme of the University of Hong Kong in November 2012, up to 84.9% of the public support the issuance of more free TV licences, and more than 52% of the public think that new free TV licences should be issued immediately or within three months. I would like to tell Secretary Gregory SO that this is public opinion and the voices of the people. I wonder if he has heard them.
I would like to give another example to illustrate why we need competition and that the standards of television programmes have declined due to the lack of competition. In 1999, Hong Kong opened up the market for international long distance telephone communications services. After the introduction of competition, the costs of long-distance calls dropped significantly, and Hong Kong people could thus save tens of millions of dollars of long-distance telephone charges. Thus, suitable competition will not only activate the industry and break the monopoly, it will also benefit the general public.
President, I point out in my amendment today that the Communications Authority has already finished processing the licence applications, but the Government and the Executive Council have not reached a decision after discussions; hence, new licences have not been issued so far. I hope to express, through this motion, the public's dissatisfaction and regret at the unsatisfactory performance of Secretary Gregory SO in handling the applications for free TV licences. Last but not least, I wish to ask the Government whether the acts of using the terrestrial airwaves and the precious free TV licence to broadcast unfair 2850 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 programmes, and using public resources for private purposes, have violated the provisions in Chapter 9 of the Generic Code of Practice on Television Programme Standards on "Accuracy, Impartiality and Fairness" of the licensees. I believe that the Secretary must answer this question later.
President, lastly, I wish to respond to another point. As stated in a recent report ― having talked so much about ATV, I would like to talk about TVB ― Mr LI Baoan, Group General Manager of TVB, pointed out that issuing another licence would worsen the current situation of the television market. So, he did not rule out the possibility of cancelling the plans to implement a five-day working week next year and a pay rise to keep pace with inflation. The Neo Democrats and I think that this tactic of taking advantage of employee benefits to threaten the interests of the community will never be successful, and it will not get the recognition of the public in Hong Kong. I would like to tell employees in the television broadcasting industry, with increased competition in the future, their values will increase correspondingly, and they do not need to worry about the company's threatening tactics.
President, let us take a look at the number of free television broadcasters in Asia: 11 in Indonesia, six in Thailand, five in Japan, five in Taiwan, four in South Korea, and even three in North Korea. Hong Kong, being an international financial centre and an advanced and civilized city with a population of 7 million, only has two free television broadcasters: one of them is "conservative and hegemonic" and another is "bizarre and crazy". We only have two alternatives. Owing to the lack of competition, ATV no longer produced quality programmes such as "Fatherland" and "My Date with a Vampire". Also due to the lack of competition, Hong Kong television drama which once dominated the Asian market have been surpassed by Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese drama. Furthermore, as a result of the lack of competition, the movie industry which was once the cradle for Hong Kong filmmakers has deteriorated and withered. I hope that Secretary Gregory SO would open up the domestic free television market as soon as possible and that he would no longer display sheer ineptitude.
President, I so submit.
MS EMILY LAU (in Cantonese): I speak in support of Ms Claudia MO's motion, urging the authorities to approve these applications as soon as possible LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2851 and issue new free television programme service licences (free TV licences). President, many people have become impatient and the authorities, especially Secretary Gregory SO have made them furious.
President, I move an amendment to this motion because the operation of Asia Television (ATV) is really poor, as many Honourable colleagues have just described. Therefore, I urge the Communications Authority (CA) to conduct hearings under the Broadcasting Ordinance, to investigate whether this television broadcaster has violated the licence provisions and the relevant Codes of Practice. If there is any violation, the authorities should consider suspending its licence. Although ATV's licence should be valid until 2015, members of the public have complained that some acts of this broadcaster are utterly outrageous, and the authorities should have taken actions.
President, Honourable colleagues have mentioned the inadequacies of ATV just now. As it is already very late and many people have gone to sleep, I would try my best not to repeat what other Members have said, and I would only discuss why ATV has given people such a bad impression. President, do you remember that the ATV management had arguments in March or April last year, and the Broadcasting Authority (BA), renamed the CA this year, notified ATV in June last year that complaints had been received, asking the authorities to investigate if WANG Zheng had manipulated ATV. In response to the BA, ATV stated that WANG Zheng was simply a major investor of ATV, and he was just the personal consultant of James SHING, the executive director. He only participated in ATV's affairs in that capacity and he did not have the right to vote in the board of directors. An investigation was then conducted by the BA.
President, the incident ended up with nothing definite until it was reported that the BA completed a preliminary investigation in March this year, and it was ruled that WANG Zheng had violated the licence provisions and manipulated ATV, and a fine of $1 million was proposed. The BA also ruled that James SHING allowed WANG Zheng to perform his duties and exercise his powers on his behalf; thus he was not a suitable licensee. The BA asked ATV to suspend the duties of James SHING as a member of the management board, and to disallow WANG Zheng to participate in the management of ATV. ATV was also asked to make recommendations as to how its corporate governance could be improved.
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At that time, the BA asked ATV to respond, otherwise, it would disclose the report. ATV questioned the BA's injustice and applied for judicial review, requesting for the suspension of the BA's action. The incident happened a long time ago and I have written to the CA to find out more about the situation. Its director wrote back on 19 November, telling me that the case concerning WANG Zheng's unauthorized manipulation of ATV has entered the judicial process, and it is inappropriate to make any comments at this stage. President, this is the first unsettled case.
President, you should also remember the incident that occurred on 6 July last year, which shocked Hong Kong and even the whole world. ATV News reported the death of former President JIANG Zemin. The news was certainly shocking but it caused an uproar when ATV withdrew the report on the following day (7 July), and apologized to the public, JIANG Zemin and his families. The BA received 45 complaints against that incident. The BA completed an investigation and published a report on 5 December. It ruled that the complaints were established because ATV had inaccurately reported the news and delayed in correcting the erroneous report. The BA also expressed regrets over the irresponsible attitude of ATV in response to its inquiries, and imposed a fine of $300,000.
As many Honourable colleagues have just mentioned, on 3 September this year, ATV's "ATV Focus" labelled people involved in the anti-national education movement as members of the destructive party; it alleged that some people stirred up trouble for the sake of election, and that the Scholarism was a pawn manipulated by some people. President, this programme is "superb" as it attracted more than 40 000 complaints. Some have said that the number of complaints has exceeded that of viewers, and many complainants have not watched the programme because they have just watched it on the Internet. President, this reflected that nobody watches this broadcaster's programmes. The Director-General of the CA has responded to the questions I asked about this incident. President, do you know how he responded? He responded that the Office of the CA has completed the investigation; it is actively handling this case and it will announce its decision as soon as possible.
Moreover, Honourable colleagues have also mentioned that, on 11 November, ATV held a "Concern for Hong Kong's Future" rally at the Central Government Complex, against the Government's issuance of free TV licences, and the activity was broadcast live. I have also written to the CA in this connection, trying to find out if ATV has violated the Broadcasting Ordinace, the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2853
Schedules to the Ordinance and other Codes of Practice because it is not just an anti-competitive act, ATV has used public resources for private purposes. President, what is the authorities' response? The authorities indicated that they are investigating the case, and there will be appropriate punishment if irregularities are found. The authorities are pitiable because there are 2 000 complaints and there may be a manpower shortage. They should apply to the Legislative Council for funding to recruit additional staff members.
President, some Honourable colleagues have also commented that ATV has too many evil deeds to be mentioned. In addition to the above investigated case where a fine is imposed and judicial review has been applied, another Honourable colleague has remarked that the viewership rate announced by ATV is a lie. Its programmes have frequently been replayed, and some have said that 40% of the programmes on the same day are reruns. President, I have watched the "News Bar Talk" programme on which you were invited to attend. You are really lucky as you are often invited to attend this programme while I have never been invited. The programme was replayed four times on the same day; you ought to be delighted but it was a surprise that Honourable colleagues have just said that this programme has zero viewers. President, you had better interview yourself; that is really outrageous!
In addition, it is said that ATV has given up the production of dramas. On 27 November, ATV followed the example of the Central Policy Unit, and dismissed 10 staff members of the News Department, including a part-time editor, who has written an article titled "feeling ashamed of some people from ATV"; she was incriminated for her words. President, I believe other Honourable colleagues would point out other shortcomings when they speak. What is the CA waiting for? I really hope that it would exercise the powers conferred by the law and hold hearings to see whether such a person is still eligible to be a licensee.
Television viewers in Hong Kong have really become mad at the Government, ATV and TVB, and they feel that they do not have any choice. Hence, the authorities must first issue additional licences as soon as possible and introduce competition; they then have to punish the broadcaster having such poor performance. It should at least suspend its license, to give a warning to others.
I so submit.
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SECRETARY FOR COMMERCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT (in Cantonese): President, first of all, I would like to thank Ms Claudia MO for moving the motion on "Domestic free television programme service licence applications" today, giving the Government another chance to explain to the Legislative Council and the public the Government's broadcasting policies and the processing of the applications for domestic free television programme service licences (free TV licences).
All along, the Government's broadcasting policies aim at promoting the continuous development of the local broadcasting industry, encouraging the industry players' fair competition, investment and adoption of new technologies, to provide the public with high quality television programmes with more choices. In 1998, that is, after the reunification, the Government issued a consultation document on a review of television policies. After extensive consultation and the completion of a review of the policies, the Administration announced in the same year a new policy on opening up the television market, and subsequently enacted the new Broadcasting Ordinance (Cap. 562) (the Ordinance) in 2000, to replace the previous Television Ordinance (Cap. 52). The Ordinance pursues the principle of technological neutrality and the licensees are free to choose the transmission modes for the provision of television services. Under the Ordinance, there is no pre-set limit on the number of free TV licenses, and any interested and qualified institutions may at any time make applications to the Communications Authority (CA) for free TV licences. To provide guidelines and reference to people interested in applying for free TV licences, the former Broadcasting Authority (BA) (that is, the predecessor of the CA) issued in 2002 the Guidance Note for Those Interested in Applying for Domestic Free Television Programme Service Licences in Hong Kong (Guidance Note) under section 4(2)(a) of the Ordinance. The above policies are open and transparent and they have remained unchanged since 1998.
According to the Ordinance, the CA shall consider the applications for free TV licences, and make recommendations to the Chief Executive in Council in respect of such applications. After taking into account the recommendations made by the CA, the Chief Executive in Council may issue free television licences, and the licences shall be subject to the conditions that the Chief Executive in Council may think fit and are set out in the licences.
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The City Telecom (HK) Limited, the Fantastic Television Limited and the Hong Kong Television Entertainment Company Limited had submitted applications for free TV licences. The former BA assessed the three applications in accordance with the Ordinance, the established procedures and the relevant factors, including the relevant provisions of the Ordinance, the criteria for assessment set on in the Guidance Note and public opinion. A number of criteria for assessment are set on in the Guidance Note, including the applicant's financial soundness and commitment to investment; the applicant must possess proven managerial and technical expertise; the variety, quantity and quality of programmes; the proposed services must be technically sound and is likely to give a satisfactory quality of service; the speed of service roll-out; the impact of the construction works involved on members of the public; any benefits the proposals will bring to the broadcasting industry and the community; as well as the applicants' internal monitoring mechanism. The above factors will be submitted to the Chief Executive in Council for consideration.
To collect public views on the three licence applications, the former BA conducted a public consultation under the Ordinance from July to September 2010. A total of 256 submissions were received during the consultation period, and the written submissions covered a very wide range, including the types and quality of the programmes, technical feasibility, investment commitments, and the impacts on the broadcasting industry and the viewers. The former BA fully considered the views expressed before making the recommendations, and it summarized and sorted out the collected views for submission to the Chief Executive in Council for consideration.
President, as I have repeatedly explained in the Legislative Council and on other public occasions, the Government has prudently handled the three applications for free TV licences and the former BA's recommendations on the three applications as required by the Ordinance and the established procedures as quickly as possible. We understand that people want to know the result of the applications as soon as possible, but free TV licence applications have to go through certain procedures, which involve complex procedural justice and legal matters. The Government must handle each application carefully according to these procedures and legal requirements, and there is no shortcut. The Administration will publish the results as soon as possible after a decision has been made by the Chief Executive in Council. I want to emphasize that we cannot and it is inappropriate for us to set a time limit for consideration of licence 2856 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 applications by the Chief Executive in Council. As I have noticed, recently there are comments that according to the information on the website of the CA, the authorities generally need about four months' time to process the applications after the receipt of all necessary documents and clarifications submitted by the applicants. In fact, I believe that the licence applications mentioned there do not refer not to free TV licences, but "non-domestic television programme services" and "other licensable television programme services". The former generally refers to satellite television services which do not primarily target Hong Kong and the latter mainly refers to television services provided in hotels. These two types of licences are not free TV licences, and they cannot be compared with free TV licences in terms of the nature, scope and popularity of services, we should not mix up the two.
The licensing mechanism I just mentioned has been clearly set out in the Ordinance. The formalities for licence application and the CA's criteria for assessment for considering free TV licence applications have been set out in detail in the Guidance Note issued by the CA. These are all public documents and they can also be downloaded from the website of the Government or the CA, for perusal by interested organizations and members of the public. The law also requires that the public shall be consulted before the issuance of free TV licences. These examples illustrate that our licensing mechanism is very open and transparent. On various occasions, I have already explained and illustrated these matters to the public and Members.
I have given a clear account of the broadcasting policies consistently adopted by the Government. Based on market-oriented principles, we encourage competition and promote the continuous and flourishing development of the broadcasting industry, so as to provide the public with high-quality television programmes with more choices, and enhance Hong Kong's status as the broadcasting hub in the region.
President, I will stop speaking for the moment and I will listen to Members' speeches before making further comments. Thank you, President.
MR CHRISTOPHER CHUNG (in Cantonese): President, the golden age of television development in Hong Kong was in the 1970s and 1980s in the last century when Hong Kong people's main spiritual food was television LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2857 programmes. Once upon a time, the dramas and variety shows of the two television broadcasters, TVB and Rediffusion TV, such as "Fatherland", "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly", "Reincarnated" and "Enjoy Yourself Tonight" had kept people of our generation company when we grew up. Up till today, watching television every night is still the major entertainment for most Hong Kong people. However, with social progress, the younger generation has various forms of entertainment such as surfing the Internet, playing computer games, playing video games and watching VCD. So, the post-80s and post-90s generation inevitably spend less time watching domestic television programmes. Moreover, there has always been a great disparity in the strength of the two television broadcasters and a lack of effective competition in the domestic free television market; as the public is tired of watching programmes with similar concepts, they will naturally welcome the introduction of competition, hoping that the new television broadcaster would bring about a new scene.
For members of the trade, they hope that additional licences would bring about new scene and create job opportunities in the free television market. For viewers, they certainly want to have more choices and more fabulous programmes. However, for market players, there are two free television broadcasters, four pay television broadcasters and a number of satellite television channels in the market, and the situation is vastly different from that between the 1970s and 1990s. Concerning the number of free television broadcasters in Hong Kong and in our neighboring regions, there are six television stations in the Philippines, five in Japan and Taiwan, and four in South Korea, and these four places have a larger population than Hong Kong. There is only one television station in Singapore, Hong Kong's old rival. As to whether additional free TV licences should be issued in Hong Kong, the Government must carefully examine the issue and consider all the relevant factors. For example, now that Hong Kong has a population of more than 7 million, how many television stations can it accommodate? Will too many television stations create vicious competition? Can competition effectively enhance the quality of programmes? Will excessive competition compels television stations to attract viewers by pleasing them with claptrap? These questions should not be ignored by the Government.
Nevertheless, the Government has spent three years on processing the licence applications. While the applicants are definitely anxious, the public can hardly understand why the Government has taken so long to make the decision. Recently, a free TV licence applicant had a shouting match with two free 2858 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 television broadcasters: while one party initiated a signature drive urging for the issuance of a licence, the other party did the "Gangnam style" dance, opposing the issuance of a licence. The operator of an existing television station even threatened to apply for judicial review once the Government issued another licence. The DAB is of the view that the developments have aroused grave concern in the community, and the Government should be more careful and cautious in approving licence applications. In particular, in the face of possible judicial review, it must carefully weigh the positive and negative impacts of its decision to issue licences, and work according to procedures, in order to avoid the Government's bearing the ultimate responsibility in the event of judicial review in the future. Therefore, it is understandable that the Government should spend more time on processing the applications, but we cannot ask the applicants and the public to wait endlessly. While being very careful, the Government must expeditiously make a decision on the issuance of licences, in order to be fair and accountable to the Government, the applicants and the general public.
President, as there is only a month to go before the end of the year, the DAB thinks that Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok's proposal that a decision should be made on the issuance of licences before the end of March next year is more objective and reasonable than the proposal in the original motion and other amendments on issuing licences by the end of this year. Hence, the DAB will only support the amendment of Ir Dr LO Wai-kwok. I so submit, President.
DR KWOK KA-KI (in Cantonese): President, I have listened very carefully to the remarks made by Mr Gregory SO, the Secretary for Commerce and Economic Development, but I am very disappointed and I am really sorry that his remarks are mere repetitions. Just now, I have listened carefully to the Secretary's comments about the criteria for assessing the TV licence applications, including financial soundness, managerial expertise, quality, technically sound services, benefits and monitoring, which nobody would raise any objection. Two television broadcasters ― one of them is "Now" as we all know and another is Cable TV ― and City Telecom which is already a member of the broadcaster industry, are producing programmes every day. As members of the public patronize their pay television services, there is a certain extent of assurance in respect of technology, management, finance, quality and so on.
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The Government should thank us for painstakingly moving this motion. As we all know, the Secretary is in charge of commerce and economic development, and he certainly wants Hong Kong to have flourishing development in respect of these areas. The last-term Government or the Government of the term before last constantly said that efforts should be made on one of the six industries which we have competitive edge, that is, the creative industry. I do not think the current Government would have different views this year.
Hong Kong's film and television industry in the past had won the admiration of the nationals of many other Asian countries, and they considered that Hong Kong was doing quite well. I remember when I visited the United States 20 years ago, I had a chance to chat with people coming from different parts of Asia. I asked a man from Korea what movies he liked and he told me that he liked to watch Hong Kong films. When I asked him his favorite movie stars, he told me that he liked Stephen CHOW and CHOW Yun-fat. Today, we really do not want to give anyone the same answer because that will only be a laughing stock. Our younger generation …… President, recently I learnt that some people are learning Korean. When I asked them why they want to learn Korean, they said that Hong Kong has no future, and it was useless to promote creative technologies and creativity in Hong Kong. That is why they told their family members that they want to learn Korean, and they will go to study design and creative technologies in South Korea. I am ashamed to hear that. We were once walking in the forefront but now we are almost the last in the queue, can we not let down generation after generation of young people? President, when we discussed the last motion subject, we are still talking about how we can help young people reach a new level. I remember that a lot of Honourable colleagues from the pro-establishment camp kept saying that we should encourage young people in all respects. I am sure that they must have mentioned creative technologies but I do not quite remember the contents of their speeches. The Secretary is in charge of creative technologies but he will not possibly do so as this will stifle the opening up of our creative industries.
Many people who can afford pay television services can have choices. Members of the public certainly have choices in Hong Kong as there are a lot of pay channels in addition to CNN. Nonetheless, President, we find that many people are not too well-off and they lack the resources for subscribing Cable TV programmes. They actually do not have choices ― I am kidding ― in choosing the television programmes they watch every day. The news programmes of two 2860 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 television broadcasters, namely "CCATV" and "CCTVB", have stronger self-censorship, and many people think that the freedom of the press is not evident.
Although they dislike the television broadcaster that they habitually tune to, how can the situation be changed? If they tune to another television broadcaster, they will find that the programmes are replayed three to four times a day, there is no locally produced programme, and they are watching Korean, Japanese or Taiwanese dramas. There are all kinds of dramas but none of them is locally produced.
The Government has turned a blind eye to the situation. In seeing that the "lame" local television broadcaster has operated till now, it still maintains that members of the public have a choice. The Secretary is telling lies with his eyes wide open. We demand to have another free television broadcaster for a very simple purpose: we hope that all people, no matter they are rich or poor, no matter they can or cannot afford to subscribe cable television programmes, can have the same access to information and entertainment, and provide another platform to many young people who are waiting for and wishing to play a role in the performing arts, entertainment and creative technology industries in Hong Kong.
Our vision should not be so shallow and narrow. We really want to nurture these talents, and sell locally produced programmes to other countries. Perhaps, one day, Korea or Japan will purchase our local programmes. As we all know, local pay television broadcasters rarely produce local dramas or other more complex programmes. As we all know, pay television broadcasters have a narrow audience base and a restrictive coverage of their programmes and viewership owing to the charging system, hence, only free television broadcasters can fill up the gap.
I rack my brains but still cannot figure out the reasons for the Government's opposition. Many people have asked if political factors are involved. I try not to think so, but regrettably, that is very difficult because I found that the Secretary is becoming more and more like the Head of the Central Propaganda Department. Indeed, with regard to freedom of speech in Hong Kong, under the control of the Secretary and the Government, it is best if there is only one obedient television broadcaster. The two existing television broadcasters are also very obedient. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ─ 28 November 2012 2861
This situation is not very good. Mr Christopher CHUNG has just cited Singapore as an example. We really should not cite Singapore as an example; those of us in pursuit of democracy think that this is a shame because Singapore is a country that has elections but not democracy. There is no reason why we have to learn from Singapore.
I very much hope that the Government would relax the requirements in respect of political censorship, and I hope the Secretary would consider our requests in the light of giving the public more choices and the community more channels for making demands, and I hope that licences would be expeditiously issued to the appropriate licensees.
I so submit, thank you, President.
SUSPENSION OF MEETING
PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): It is now past 10 pm. The meeting is now suspended until 9 am tomorrow.
Suspended accordingly at three minutes past Ten o'clock.
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Appendix 1
REQUEST FOR POST-MEETING AMENDMENTS
The Chief Secretary for Administration requested the following post-meeting amendment in respect of a supplementary question to Question 1
Line 2, fourth paragraph, page 13 of the Confirmed version
To amend "…… there were 16 NCSC posts before 1 July 2012, that is, before Mr SHIU Sin-por became Head of the CPU." as "…… there were 19 NCSC posts before 1 July 2012, that is, before Mr SHIU Sin-por became Head of the CPU." (Translation)
(Please refer to line 1-2, first paragraph, page 2527 of this Translated version)