WISCONSIN HISTORICAL SOCIETY
An Oral History Interview with
PATRICK LUCEY
Interviewer: .Anita Hecht, Life History Services Recording Date: January 13, 2009 Place: Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Length: 2.0 hours
Patrick J. Lucey was raised in La Crosse, Wisconsin, served in the U.S. Army during World War Two, and completed his B.A. degree at the University of Wisconsin in 1946.
In 1948, Lucey was elected to the state legislature and in 1950 he ran unsuccessfully for Congress. He then became executive director of Wisconsin's Democratic Party and in 1957 chaired Proxmire's successful campaign for Joseph McCarthy's U.S. Senate seat.
Lucey chaired the Wisconsin Democratic Party from 1957 to 1963. In 1964 he became lieutenant governor and in 1970 and 1974 was elected Governor. He co-chaired the Wisconsin delegation to the Democratic National Conventions of 1972 and 1976.
In 1977, Lucey resigned the governorship to accept appointment as U.S. ambassador to Mexico. In 1980, he ran as the vice presidential candidate on John Anderson's independent ticket for the U.S. presidency. .After the ticket's defeat by Ronald Reagan, Lucey left public life for the first time in 32 years. During the 1980s he taught political science and worked as a private political consultant.
Pa trick L ucey In terview Transcrip t 1 Proxmire Oral His tory Project PROJECT NAME: PROXMIRE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Verbatim Interview Transcript NARRATOR: PATRICK LUCEY INTERVIEWER: Anita Hecht INTERVIEW DATE: January 13, 2009 INTERVIEW LOCATION: Milwaukee, Wisconsin INTERVIEW LENGTH: Approximately 2 Hours
KEY: PL Patrick Lucey BP Bill Proxmire TF Tom Fairchild JD Jim Doyle, Sr.
SUBJECT INDEX
HOUR1
Hour 1/00:00 PL Family History Educational/Work History
Hour 1/10:05 Early Political Influences Military Service
Hour 1/20:00 Military Service (cont)/Political Influence of Military
Hour 1/30:05 Introduction to Politics Assembly Campaign PL's Various Community Positions Status of Early Democratic Party
Hour 1/40:05 PL's Congressional Campaign Progressive Party's Influence on Wisconsin Politics Working with BP
Hourl/51:10 PL's Congressional Loss/ Subsequent Work with Democratic Party Importance of Defeating McCarthy
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript Proxmire Oral History Project HOUR 2a
Hour2a/00:00 PL's Appointment as TF Campaign Manager
Hour2a/10:20 JD's Gubernatorial Campaign
HOUR 2b
Hour2b/00:00 BP's Handshaking PL's Support of BP in Senate Campaign BP's Marriages
Hour2b/10:35 PL's Party Chairman Campaign Duties as Party Chairman Importance of Special Election on Wisconsin Democratic Party
Hour2b/20:05 PL's Role in Kennedy Election BP's Reluctance to Attend White House Functions PL's Lieutenant Governor/Governor Campaigns
Hour2b/29:20 PL's Endorsement of BP's Campaigning Style Criticism of BP for not Bringing Money to State
Hour2b/39:50 BP's Legacy
HOUR1
Hour 1/00:00 PL Family History, Educational/Work History
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript Proxmire Oral History Project The date is January 13* in the year 2009. My name is Anita Hecht and I have the great pleasure
and honor of interviewing Governor Patrick Joseph Lucey on behalf of the William Proxmire
Oral History Project for the Wisconsin Historical Society. And we find ourselves in Pat's office
here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in the Catholic Home.
Milwaukee Catholic Home.
Well, thanks for agreeing to participate. I'd like to begin this interview with just a bit of
information on you and your background. Can you tell me when and where you were born?
t;t I was born in La Crosse, Wisconsin at St. Francis Hospital on March 21 , 1918.
And how old are you today, then':
I'm ninety years old.
Wow. Any secrets to your longevity?
Hmm?
Are there any secrets to your longevity?
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript A Proxmire Oral History Project Oh, I don't think so. I've been a vegetarian for the last twenty years, maybe that helps. And I do
consume a little wine. They say red wine is good for you.
Tell me a little bit about your family background and some of the influences in your young life.
Where did you grow up? Where were you educated?
Well, I grew up in Ferryville, Wisconsin to begin with. And I was there through third grade. And then my dad bought a store in Bagley, Wisconsin. We moved down there. And I went to a public
school for fourth and fifth grade. Then my parents decided I should be going to a Catholic
school, and there was a Catholic school at Glen Haven, which was about eleven miles away and
seven miles by rail. And I used to, with my two oldest sisters, we'd be driven down to Glen
Haven in the morning. We'd come home in the afternoon on the train, the Burlington train. And
in the wintertime, we stayed with a family by the name of Adrian. And we'd stay five days a
week with them. And then in '31,1 graduated from grade school and went to Campion, which
was a Jesuit prep school in Prairie du Chien.
Was education highly valued in your family?
Yes, it definitely was. Both my parents had limited educations. I think my father would argue that he probably had something less than an eighth grade education. He may have been in school
for eight years, but he was the oldest male child in a family of nine and he claimed that he only
went to school when the ground was frozen because in the spring he had to help plant the crops
and in the fall he had to help harvest the crops. He finally did, on the advice of my mother, spend
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 5 Proxmire Oral History Project one winter going to a business college in La Crosse, Wisconsin, so that he learned something
about - not accounting, but at least bookkeeping. And I think that was essential to his success in
business.
Was he a success in business?
Hmm?
Was he a success in business?
Yes, remarkably successful. He had a store in Ferryville. He sold it to a brother of his when he
bought the store in Bagley, but that didn't work out. So eventually he had to take it back from his
brother. So then he was running stores in Bagley and Ferryville, going back and forth. And the
Bagley store started out as a hardware store, but eventually he got involved in farm implements
and he was a John Deere dealer. And then gradually he developed a John Deere agency in
Ferryville as well. And later in his career, he began to acquire farms and he finally got to the
point where he had fourteen farms that he was operating with tenants.
Do you think he was an influence on you?
Oh, sure. No question about it.
In what way?
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 6 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, I think he demonstrated that, you know, that one could be successful. And I recognized that his disadvantage in not having more education, I think that inspired me to get educated.
And it sounds like his work certainly influenced some of the work that you ended up doing as a young adult.
Yes, yes. Well, for instance, my real estate business - I was active in politics for a long period of time, including the Fairchild campaign in '52 and Jim Doyle's campaign for Governor in '54 and then the Proxmire special election in '57 and then I was elected Party [Democratic Party]
Chairman later that year and served six years as Party chairman. And during all this time, I was
also developing the Lucey Realty Service. And I had, probably at the peak, about twenty
salesmen, two offices, east and west. We used to advertise very heavily in the paper. We had
what we called "The Lucey List" and listed the items that were for sale. And I was the only
broker in town that used television. And at that time, television was so primitive that I did most
of my commercials live. But I think they paid off.
That was a successful business for you as well?
Yeah, yeah.
Any other family influences? You just mentioned your political resume. Tell me about politics in your family, in your parents or their parents' generation.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 7 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, Dad had a mild interest in local politics. And in Bagley, he was elected Village President.
And in those days it was the rotten borough system. A Village President, no matter how small the village, was automatically on the county board. And then later when he moved back to
Ferryville, he again was elected Village President and again served on the County Board. In this
case, it was Crawford County, where Bagley was Grant County. I suppose that had some
influence on my interest in politics, although I became interested in national politics very early. I
was excited about Al Smith in 1928 when I was only ten years old. I suppose maybe, partly
because he was a Democrat, but also because he was Irish and Catholic.
Was that a large part of your family's identity was well?
Was what?
Irish Catholic?
Yes, oh, yes, yes. Well, in fact, I'm one of seven and my two brothers both became Jesuits and
one of my four sisters became a Dominican nun. She has passed away and one of the brothers is
gone. But my other brother is President of Spring Hill College in Mobile, Alabama. I'm the
oldest of seven. He's the youngest of seven, so he turned seventy-five his last birthday.
Do you know what brought either your maternal or paternal families to Wisconsin?
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 8 Proxmire Oral History Project What?
Do you know what brought your families to Wisconsin, specifically?
Patty Lucey - I know more about him than I do the McNamara side. My mother was a
McNamara. But Patty Lucey worked for awhile in New York, I suppose on a farm. There was
nothing else he knew. And then eventually he came to Prairie du Chien and the story was that he
had his money strapped to his leg inside his boot and there was a stagecoach that would take him to Eastman. He thought he wanted to go to Eastman. But he didn't want to take off his boot in
front of all these people and have them see all that money. So he ran behind the stagecoach for
seventeen miles to get to Eastman. And he was a little fella. He was the same height as my wife.
He's about 5'1". And he got from Eastman on over to the rural area near Ferryville.
Hour 1/10:05 Early Political Influences, Military Service
And he worked for a number of years as a farmhand, but eventually bought a farm. And, of
course, in those times you could buy a farm for about fifty cents an acre. And he left Ireland, of
course, because of the potato famine, but his timing was such that he managed to get drafted into
our Civil War after he got here. By this time - well, he married Hanora Sullivan in Ireland before
he left and accumulated enough money eventually to get her here. And when he was drafted in the Civil War, she was pregnant. And while he couldn't read or write, he could keep track of
dates on a calendar. So he had one of his buddies write a letter home and he was so anxious to
have a son that he couldn't bring himself to say, "Is it a boy or a girl?" The letter that was written
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 9 Proxmire Oral History Project said - and I used to have the letter. I don't know where it is now. The letter said, "Is it a boy or a
child?" (laughter) And it was a boy, and it was the only child they had - John Lucey, my
grandfather. And his wife died much earlier than he did. He lived to be ninety. He died in 1920. I
was two years old. I used to claim that I remember going to his funeral. I think probably what I
remember is my parents telling me about my going to the funeral. I don't kids remember much that happened when they're two years old.
So was it kind of by chance that he chose —
Hmm?
Was it kind of by chance that he chose Wisconsin?
I think there were some other Luceys in that area already over near Gays Mills. There's a Peter
Lucey that I got to know, and we determined that we were somehow related going way back to
Ireland. And I've been to Ireland three or four times, and once Jean [my wife] and I went down to County Cork, where the Luceys came from. We found the farm from which he migrated and it
was still in the Lucey family. And Jim Lucey, who ran the farm, wasn't there, but we did talk to
his wife. It was kind of a rocky farm. I can see why he wanted to get out of Ireland - well, he had to get out of Ireland because of the potato famine.
So the Irish Catholics were mainly Democrats? Is that correct?
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 10 Proxmire Oral History Project I think so, yeah, yeah.
What was it about the Democratic platform, do you think, that appealed to your —
Well, I think they're anti-English. I mean, you know, they had been persecuted by the English
for so many generations. And the English were the landowners and the big shots, and I think they just naturally felt they belonged in the Democratic Party.
So you parents were in the Democratic Party as well?
Yeah, um-hmm, um-hmm. (affirmatively)
Any other influences on your early development, either your political leanings or your
educational interests?
Well, I was very excited about Roosevelt. And my father and I attended the victory party at
Prairie du Chien the night that he was elected. And I remember in '33,1 scooted home to my
grandmother's house on my bicycle to get there in time to hear the inaugural address, and I heard
it: "We have nothing to fear but fear itself." And at that time, I could recite the names of every
member of the Cabinet. I haven't been able to do that on any administration since, I don't think.
What interested you about politics?
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 11 Proxmire Oral History Project Hmm?
What interested you about politics, do you think?
I don't know.
At that age, that young age?
I don't know. With me, it seemed strange that everyone isn't interested in politics. I mean, there's so much significance to what -the political decisions that are made, including peace and
war.
Do you think that the Progressive movement in Wisconsin also captured your attention?
Yes, yes. Well, when I came home from service, that's when -the time for choosing. I mean,
whether - well, in the '30s, Phil LaFollette, you know, was elected Governor in '30 and again in
'34, and was defeated in '36. As the war came along, the LaFollettes kind of broke with
Roosevelt because they were against the war. But I remember when I voted in 1940, the first time I voted. And I voted for Roosevelt, but I voted for Progressives at the State level. And I was
still voting in Grant County then, because that's where I had the grocery store. So for the county
officers, the only people that were running were Republicans, so I voted for Republicans.
(laughter) And that was in 1940. Well then, of course, I was drafted a year later. And in the
Army, you don't do too much political.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 12 Proxmire Oral History Project How did you feel about the US entering the wan
Hmm?
How did you feel about the war?
Oh, I thought we had to do it. I didn't argue at all about when I -1 had a very early draft number.
I mean, it was August of '41, before Pearl Harbor. And I did go to the - Clarence Peterson, who
was the Secretary of the Draft Board in Crawford County - and I said, "Look," I said, "I want to
start law school this fall and it'd be nice if I could get in one year of law school before I go into
service." And this was - you know, we weren't at war. And Peterson looked at me and he said,
"The only thing that lawyers protect us from is other lawyers." He said, "If we draft them all, we
got nothing to worry about." And I think he had a brother who had been District Attorney. I
mean, there were lawyers in the Peterson family. But I didn't get much sympathy from him. And
so I went in in -1 think it was, like, August 3 of '41 - and then by Pearl Harbor Day, I was
already out in Wyoming.
So just to summarize your time in the military, you were in until December 2 5{, 1945 you said?
Yeah, um-hmm. (affirmatively)
And spent most of that time in Puerto Rico?
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 13 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, I'd say out of four and a half years, I spent thirty-three months in Puerto Rico. And I think
I even got paid a little extra for overseas duty, which was sort of ridiculous, but -
But you had a big job.
It did turn into a big job. I gradually worked into it. When I was drafted, I went down to Camp
Grant, Illinois, and they gave you an Army aptitude test, which is the nearest thing to an
intelligence test I think I've ever had, and I came out very well. And this fellow that was
interviewing people, he said, "Well, with what your score is here" - I think it was one thirty-nine
- at any rate, he said, "You can choose your branch of service and you can choose where you
want to be sent." I said, "Alright." I said, "I think because my experience in the grocery business,
I should be in the Quartermaster Corps and I've never been to Hawaii. I think I'd like to go to
Hawaii." So he said, "Well, come back tomorrow." So I came back the next day, and he said,
"Well, I'm sorry. We don't have a vacancy for Quartermaster Corps in Hawaii." And he didn't tell me anything about the necessity for basic training, but he said, "We do have vacancy in the
Philippines." I said, "Where's a map of the Pacific?" He said, "Right above my head." And I
looked and the whole wall was a map of the Pacific. I said, "Now, the Philippines are down here.
Where's Japan?" "Well, it's right up here."
Hour 1/20:00 Military Service (cont)/Political Influence of Military
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 14 Proxmire Oral History Project I said, "I will go to the Philippines if I'm sent there, but I'm not going to ask to be sent there."
And so I went back to my barracks and I had had - at Campion [High School], I had a Junior
ROTC, so at the barracks I was suddenly marching troops around because these guys would
come in. I'd have to march them over to the Quartermaster Corps to get their uniforms. I'd have to march them over to see the sex film, you know, so they wouldn't get diseases. I'd have to
march them out to the parade grounds to lower the flag at the end of the day. And I think there
was a First Sergeant there who thought it was awful nice to have me there as one extra hand that
he had, you know? And one Sunday I was on guard duty, and they to ritually go through at the
start of the day, and there was a young first or second lieutenant who was the Officer of the Day.
Well, it turned out that he was married to Eileen Brown, who had been at St. Mary's when I was
at Campion. And so they came over to the guard house later to see me because she recognized
me in the ranks. And so I told them, I said, "I'm sort of at a dead end here. I can't be promoted
even to Corporal without basic training and they don't give basic training at Camp Grant." And,
"Well, what company are you in?" and I told them. "Oh, that's Captain Roland," and I said,
"Yes." "Well, we share a two-flat with him. We'll talk to him tonight and you go in and see him
in the morning." So I went in and Captain Roland said, "Well, of course," he said, "we've got to
get you some basic training." He said, "We'll send you out to Wyoming." So, like, two days
later, I was on a troop train to Wyoming. And then I got my thirteen weeks of basic training.
They were forming a new regiment, so they decided I should be cadre for the new regiment. So I
became a Corporal and then a Sergeant real fast. But while I'm there, I'm serving under a
Captain -1 can't think of his name now - but he was from Champ aign-Urb ana. And he was a
Captain because he had been in either the Reserve or National Guard. And what did he do for a
living between the wars? In Champ aign-Urb ana he was a cab driver; but a very fine man. So I
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 15 Proxmire Oral History Project went in to see him one day, and I said, "Look, they're opening this new school for officer
candidates and I could apply for that. I'm pretty sure I'd get admitted, but my alternative is to
stay with you." He said, "If you stay with me," he said, "I'll make you my First Sergeant as soon
as I have a vacancy. But," he said, "if you go over there, in ninety days, you'll be getting the
same pay as a First Sergeant and you can only go up from that. Where you stay with me, First
Sergeant is as high as you'll ever go, no matter how long the war lasts." So, obviously, I applied
for the second. So in the time that I was in Wyoming, I was thirteen weeks basic training, thirteen weeks as a non-com [noncommissioned officer], thirteen weeks in OCS [Officer
Candidate School], and then they kept me around for another thirteen weeks as a Second
Lieutenant. And finally I got orders to go to New Orleans and I got down there and my orders
were "Mercury." And nobody was supposed to know where I was going. Well, there were a
bunch of young, Second Lieutenants that were Puerto Rican and they had just earned their
Second Lieutenant at Benning, which is an infantry school. And I said, "What's your magic
word?" "Mercury." Well, obviously they were going back to train troops in Puerto Rico, see. So then I knew I was going to Puerto Rico.
And that's where you spent the balance of the war, then, in Puerto Rico?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Moving from Second Lieutenant all the way up to Captain?
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 16 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, all the way. I mean, I went from Second Lieutenant to First Lieutenant to Captain. I mean, that's not - not earth-shaking at all, but -
But you fed all the troops in the Caribbean?
Huh?
You were responsible for feeding all of the —
Yeah. We had about thirty thousand troops in the Caribbean. You'd wonder why in the world
you'd have thirty-thousand troops in the Caribbean? Well, training these young Puerto Ricans
who just loved the business of going into the US Army for thirty dollars a month. That was better
pay than they could get digging ditches or something. So that was a big thing. And then the
Army and Navy had various islands all over the Caribbean and we supplied food for the Navy
and Coast Guard, as well as for the Army. And, of course, in those days, the Air Force was part
of the Army. So we weren't limited just to the troops in Puerto Rico. My first assignment, though, to Puerto Rico was not San Juan. It was Ponce. And we had an air base there, a very
small one. And the planes there had a responsibility of constantly monitoring the Caribbean, the
southern end of the Caribbean, because we were afraid that a U-boat could get into the Panama
Canal, blow itself up, and close the Canal for the balance of the war, which would mean it would
be impossible to - it'd be very difficult to get troops from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific
Ocean. And so then as the war began to go in our favor, they kept reducing the size of Losey
Field. And it's funny, because there were so few officers there, that I would keep getting
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 17 Proxmire Oral History Project additional duties. At one point, I was the Assistant Quartermaster. I was in charge of the post
exchange. I was in charge of the Officers' Club. I had served on the intermediate court-martial,
which had a limit of six months. The summary court was handled by the company commander.
He could put a guy in the guardhouse for thirty days. We had six months. And then, of course, the general court martial - hell, you could kill him.
7 can see where you got some of your administrative and managerial and organizational skills
early on.
Well, one of the things - on the court martial, they finally made me the prosecutor. I hadn't been to a law school. And to their credit, there was only one lawyer at Losey Field. And so they said to him, they said, "Alright. You're everybody's defense lawyer." So he and I came up against
each other. I don't know - we had five or six cases. And I managed to get the maximum, six
months, in each case. Usually you don't court martial somebody unless it's pretty clear that they're guilty. But so then, Colonel Wilson happened to come through there and he and I chatted.
And he was a QMSO - Quartermaster Supply Officer - at the general depot. And I think he sort
of decided that I was somebody he wanted. And so he put in for it, and so I got transferred over to San Juan. And that's where I became Subsistence Officer.
Looking back on this time, do you think the war and that experience influenced you and your
views, either politically, or your goals about what you wanted to do?
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 18 Proxmire Oral History Project Oh, I suppose so, I suppose so. Well, for instance, at the general depot, there were thirteen
Quartermaster Officers. And I remember one of my - we'd share apartments. And one of my
roommates was Dick Levy from New York. Well, Dick was every bit as political as I was. In
fact, one night over a couple of rum and cokes, we decided that in 1950, we would both run for
Congress. And so in 1949,1 think it was, I called him up in New York and I said, "Well, Dick.
I'm going to run for Congress next year. What about you?" He said, "My district isn't ready for a
Jewish Congressman." But he says, "I'm going to manage the campaign of a candidate for
Congress." So we almost kept our pledges.
And your district probably hadn't had a Democrat in a long time?
Huh?
Your district hadn't had a Democrat in a long time, either.
Well, of course, I didn't get elected to Congress.
Oh, I 'm thinking about the State Legislature. Sorry about that. So when you got out, what was
the first political work that you did after the war?
Hour 1/30:05 Introduction to Politics, Assembly Campaign, PL's Various Community Positions, Status of Early Democratic Party
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 19 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, in '46,1 connected with the Democrats in Prairie du Chien and Marguerite Rogers was the
Register of Deeds. She had been an office holder in the courthouse since the early '30s and had
managed to survive year after year. I mean, maybe it was partly because nobody else wanted to
be Register of Deeds, I don't know. But Marguerite was good. And then in '46,1 did what I
could for the ticket, made a couple of speeches. And Frank Antoine was our Assembly candidate.
And Frank had graduated, I think number one in his class at law school at Marquette. And he had
run for either the legislature or District Attorney every year since he got out of law school. His
father was a medical doctor in Prairie due Chien, but was also Mayor of Prairie du Chien. He had
some political interests. So in '46, Antoine ran for the legislature again and lost, as he had once
or twice before. So in '48, he said, "I think that it's time for me to run for Congress." He said,
"Why don't you run for this Assembly seat?" So I said, "Okay," I'd do that, and so I made an all
out effort, spent a thousand dollars, all of it my own money. I think I got a fifty dollar check
from one of the Railway Brotherhoods and I didn't quite know what to do with it. I'd never
received a contribution before. But before I became the candidate for the Assembly, I was trying to build the Party. I was going around and getting people to become Precinct Chairmen and that
sort of thing. And then after I filed for the legislature, I was still doing that sort of thing. Finally,
Marguerite got a hold of me and she said, "You know," she said, "there comes a time when the
most important thing you can do for the Party is to get yourself elected." She said, "It's very
nice, all this stuff you're doing about building up the precincts and so forth, but I think now is the time that you start working as a candidate." And, of course, that was awfully good advice.
And my mother would have been in her '50s, I suppose, then. But she worked with me. And
we'd go into a little town like Wauzeka, and she would go house to house in the village and I
would go farm to farm and pass out my cards and do what I could.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 20 Proxmire Oral History Project Do you remember the issues that you were running on? What you were talking to people about?
Well, believe it or not, one of the issues was tobacco marketing. At that time, Crawford County
grew a lot of tobacco; not cigarette tobacco. But it was tobacco used in, I suppose chewing and
maybe the insides of cigars, I'm not sure. And I thought that their marketing methods were very
primitive. And so I was talking to the tobacco farmers about how we could - in the legislature
we could improve the marketing of the crop. I had also been interested in education. In fact, I
was elected to the School Board in Ferryville almost as soon as I got out of the service. Well, as
a matter of fact, the spring of '46 when I was at the University -1 was just there that one
semester to get my Bachelor's degree - an old friend of mine, Jean Garvey, she lived up the
street a ways and she and my sisters had gone to Aquinas High School, a Catholic high school, in
La Crosse together. And Jean, unbeknownst to me, decided that I ought to be the Justice of Peace
in Ferryville. So she organized a small write-in campaign. And I came home one weekend from
Madison and my parents told me, "You've been elected Justice of the Peace."
No kidding! (laughter)
And so I handled the job. I tried a few very minor cases. And we had one case where a guy had
been drunk and disorderly. And it was so funny - the local marshal or whatever we had there,
locked him up in our jail. We had a small jail in Ferryville. So the poor guy stayed in jail
overnight, and the next morning we had his trial. And his wife was there. And so I found him
guilty in some minor - like a five dollar fine or something, you know, and then there were court
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 21 Proxmire Oral History Project costs of maybe three dollars and fifty cents. And so here's, the wife, she got out her handkerchief
and opened it up and counted out the money to pay the fine and the court costs, and took her
husband home, who was suffering from a hangover. And I thought to myself, "Well now, who
did I punish?" I really punished her. She had to go home and milk the cows. She had to gather the eggs. She had to take her egg money and pay the damn fine, (laughter) But I was also on the
School Board in Ferryville. And Jack Gillespie was a banker up in Desoto, which is just seven
miles up the road. And Jack convinced everybody that we should have a high school that would
-1 forget what they called them then - but now you have one large school district that has high
schools and grade schools all in one. At that time - a Union Free high school - a Union Free
high school, you'd combine several grade school districts and have one union free high school
for the whole thing. And so Gillespie convinced us that we should do that and should have it in
Desoto rather than Ferryville. And I went along with that. And I served on that school board. I
had already been elected to the Ferryville School Board. As a matter of fact, the budget for the
local school district was prepared for the annual meeting. And I think seventeen people showed
up for the annual meeting. And I was Treasurer of the school board, so I submitted my budget.
And some people thought it was too extravagant. At any rate, we put it to a vote and I won, like, twelve to five or something like that. And as we were walking down the street - Ferryville's a
one-street town. You can't drive around the block. There's no way to do that. So as we were
walking back down to the house, my mother admitted that she had voted for the budget and my
dad had voted against the budget, (laughter) So at one point, I was Justice of the Peace and
serving on two school boards: the Union Free High School Board with Gillespie and the
Ferryville School Board.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 22 Proxmire Oral History Project Interesting. And so the political bug had bitten.
Yeah. So then in '48, that's when Antoine came to me and said, "I want to run for Congress this time. Why don't you run for the Assembly?"
What was the state of the Democratic Party in those days?
Oh, pretty bad, very bad. It had been -
Did you see that as an opportunity in terms of—
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I - sometime in '48,1 went down to Madison to a meeting where I met a
lot of people like Jim Doyle, Sr. and Carl Thompson and probably Gaylord Nelson, I don't
remember. And that was the first I realized that this business of trying to rebuild the Democratic
Party that I was doing in Crawford County was really a statewide effort that was going on. And then I sort of became a part of that. But I'm sure that if I had been sitting in Madison doling out
money for campaigns, I wouldn't have put any money in Pat Lucey's campaign for the
legislature, because there was not a single Democrat in the legislature from the western half of the State.
Hour 1/40:05 PL's Congressional Campaign, Progressive Party's Influence on Wisconsin Politics, Working with BP
So it was really an upset when you won?
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 23 Proxmire Oral History Project Hmm?
Was it an upset, then, when you won?
Oh, yeah. Oh, sure, sure. And part of the reason I won was that the Republican who lost the
primary didn't file as an Independent. And so I won, and I defeated the Speaker of the House,
but I didn't have a majority of the vote. I mean, the Independent had, like, five hundred votes or
something. But I think the way it came out that if the Independent hadn't been there, I think I
might still have won because those five hundred votes were anti-McDowell votes, and I probably
would have gotten my share of them, you know.
So tell me about the State of Wisconsin at the time. More conservative?
Well, I think so. I mean, the Progressive Party collapsed with the defeat of Bob LaFollette by Joe
McCarthy in '46, was it? I can't remember. And so it was a case of - well, when the Progressive
Party collapsed actually late in the '30s, the former Progressives had to decide where they
wanted to go: whether they wanted to go to the Democratic Party or the Republican Party. And the big city Progressives tended to be Democrats. The rural Progressives tended to go back to the
Republican Party from whence they came. And so the whole business of the new Democratic
Organizing Committee came about after World War II and I was very much involved in that.
So you won the seat in 1948. Did you run again in 1950?
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 24 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, no. In 1950,1 ran for Congress.
Right.
The job of Assemblyman, which I made almost a full time job, paid a hundred dollars a month.
And even though I was a bachelor living at home, I thought it was either up or out. And also, the
Congressional District -1 mean, if we were going to elect a statewide ticket, you couldn't have
blanks at the Congressional level. You had to have somebody running. And frankly, in 1950 it
appeared to me that if I didn't run, nobody would. And so I ran. And I had a theory on how I
might have gotten elected. Foster Porter was a State Senator. And Foster Porter had been my
competitor in the grocery business in Bloomington. He had a big store right across the street
from me. And so here he was a State Senator, and he was running for Congress as a Republican
against Gardner Withrow, who had been a Progressive in the '30s, had been out of office, who
had run for Sheriff of La Crosse County and came in seventh on the Republican ticket, and here
he's running as a Republican now. And I thought surely that Foster Porter would beat him and that I had some chance to beat Foster Porter, because Foster Porter was down in Bloomington in the south end of the District, and La Crosse is up here where all the big vote is. And if Withrow
was out of it now, La Crosse would go Democratic, I might actually get the Congressional seat.
But Joe Walsh from Tennyson, in southern Grant County, decided he wanted to be a
Congressman. So the Republicans had three candidates instead of two. And the vote came in,
like, fifteen thousand for Withrow, the incumbent, fourteen thousand for Porter, thirteen thousand for Joe Walsh. Well, Joe Walsh and Porter were drawing on the same people. They
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 25 Proxmire Oral History Project were both from Grant County at the south end, down near Dubuque. And so it was a natural for
Withrow to win. And he had the reputation, going back to the '30's, of being a Progressive. And
so labor tended to support Withrow. So the Republican Party and organized labor were both
supporting my Republican opponent. It's pretty hard to win under those circumstances.
Well, let me ask about Bill Proxmire now.
What?
Let me ask you about Bill Proxmire now.
Yeah.
Because 1950 he also ran a campaign for a State Legislator.
Yeah. You've got it mixed up, there. In 1950, he was elected to the legislature.
Right.
And he won his primary and it was out in Sun Prairie, a safe district. Once he won the primary,
he was automatic - he was a shoe-in. And here I'm out there making a hopeless race for
Congress. So Bill came out and the same woman who wrote me in for Justice of the Peace is now
married and living in La Crosse, and she was, as a volunteer, running my Congressional
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 26 Proxmire Oral History Project campaign headquarters, and didn't have a clue as to what to do. She had a degree from Mount
Mary's College in Milwaukee, here. And smart as hell. She was probably number one in her
class, but really no experience in politics. Well, Prox came over and spent one day with her, and just made a world of difference in the effectiveness of that campaign; showed her how to get out
press releases. And somehow we managed from then on to get out a press release every day. And
I think my total expenditures in that campaign were about ten thousand dollars. Again, mostly
my own money; money I'd saved at a hundred and twenty-five dollars a month in the Army.
Was this the first time you had met him?
Who, Proxmire?
Um-hmm. (affirmatively)
No. I had met him back in Madison. I don't know just when I met him, but I met him - oh, I
know! Oh, wait a minute! I'm leaving out a whole section here. In 1949, when I was in the
legislature, we didn't have very much staff in those days. And we certainly didn't have any
sophisticated public relations thing going on. And so he and I got together. We decided that we
would meet every Monday morning before the legislature started. We would decide on the issue
of the week. And then he would write up a press release. Oh, he was working at that time for The
Capital Times. But there was no problem in his - as he explained to me, he said, "I've got a lot
of time on my hands. I don't have to work all the time on reporting for The Capital Times." So,
what we worked out was that every week, he and I - the first of the week - would decide on the
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 27 Proxmire Oral History Project issue of the week; that he would write a press release, and then we would decide which
Democrat on the legislature should be quoted in this press release. And we'd go around to that person and you'd get approval, and then we'd crank out the press release, [interruption]
We'd take it over to the Democratic headquarters. They would run off the necessary number of copies. We were aiming mainly at weekly newspapers and there were some fifty in the State. In fact, there were five - maybe there were more than fifty - there were five in my Assembly
District. I think probably now it's down to one or two. So the first part of the week was to decide on a subject. Then he would write the script. Then we'd decide which legislator we would attribute it to and we'd talk to him and get his approval. Then he would take it over to the Party headquarters and they would run it off on the mimeograph machine, make the necessary number of copies. We would go over to the Rural Electric Association- I mean they had an association representing farmers that were depending on Roosevelt's Rural Electric plan, see. And they had a mailing list of all the weekly papers in the State. In fact, it probably included the dailys as well.
So they would run our mailing through their addressograph and we'd get it out. And it worked pretty well. And we did the whole legislative session.
Hour 1/51:10 PL's Congressional Loss/Subsequent Work with Democratic Party, Importance of Defeating McCarthy
So Proxmire was involved in backroom politicking before he even got into office?
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 28 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah; oh, yes, yeah. Well, if you want to call it backroom politicking. I mean, we were trying to
do what we could with very limited resources to build up the Democratic Party. And so this was the way we were doing it was to get these weekly press releases out.
How did he strike you when you first started working with him? What were your first impressions
of him? Can you describe a little bit of the person that you met?
Well, his enthusiasm was very noticeable, of course. And I had a very favorable impression,
obviously, and we worked very closely together all through that session of the legislature. Now the legislature was probably in session for five months or something like that. I think I met his
wife during that time, his first wife.
Did you find out much about his background?
Oh. ..
7 mean, he had been in World War II, for example. Did you talk about that?
Yeah, yeah. I knew that he had been in World War II. I knew that he had two Masters Degrees.
He had one MBA [Master of Business Administration], I think from Harvard before he went into the service. And then after he got out of the service, he decided that instead of going into private
business he wanted to do something political, and so he went back and got a second Masters in
Public Administration. So, at any rate, we went through that legislative session. And then I
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 29 Proxmire Oral History Project decided to run for Congress. He decided to run for the Legislature. And once he had won the
primary, it was in the bag for him. It was a solid district. So he came out and helped Jean Garvey
set up my headquarters for my congressional race. And, of course, he won and I lost. And so then the question was: "Well, what was I going to do? Would I go back and join my father in the
business, or will I stay in politics?" And the Senior Jim Doyle was Party Chairman by then and
he tried to persuade me that I should work full-time for the Party. And so they set it up to hire me
at five hundred dollars a month to be the Executive Director of the Party. And Henry Meier was
very opposed to all of this. Henry Meier said, you know, "Why are you rewarding a guy who lost
an election?" Oh, and they had a meeting of the State Administrative Committee and they
decided that they would hire me, but it would be up to Doyle to raise the money to pay me from
outside the State. So he had to go to the east coast and get contributions because it was so
important to build up the Party to take on Joe McCarthy. And so sometimes I'd get paid, and
some months I wouldn't get paid. And then sometimes I'd get three checks at once, just
depending on Jim's ability to raise the money.
Tell me about the two years that Proxmire was in the State Legislature. Did you have much
contact? Do you remember any of the issues that he worked on or what kind of a legislator he
was?
Oh, I don't remember too much about it. Let's see now . . . that would have been '51/'52 when I
was working for the Party.
Um-hmm. (affirmatively)
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 30 Proxmire Oral History Project At the moment, I have a blank. Something may come to me. I mean, that business about our
getting out those press releases in '51,1 almost skipped over.
Was he considered a carpet bagger at all, given that he wasn 'tfrom Wisconsin?
Well, the Republicans used that against him. I don't think any Democrats did. But the big
contest, '51/'52, of course, was, "Who was going to run against Joe McCarthy?" And the
Congressman from down here . . . what was his name ... he was a very outstanding
Congressman, and had served in World War II and had worked on the Marshall Plan. And
Averell Harriman was a great friend of his. Well, at any rate, he spent at least a year
campaigning to become the candidate against Joe McCarthy. As we approached the deadline for
filing in early July of '52, some people in Madison decided that he couldn't cut it against
McCarthy and that we needed Fairchild. Why did we need Fairchild? Well, Fairchild had run for
Attorney General in '48 and won; the first time that we had a Democrat win statewide since '32.
And Fairchild, in 1950 when I was running for Congress, ran for US Senate against. . another
blank.
It's okay. We '11 fill them in.
And he lost that race. So then Truman appointed him US Attorney for the western district. And
he was serving in that capacity. But a bunch of Dane County Democrats insisted that he had to
be our candidate against Joe McCarthy. And reluctantly, very near the deadline for filing, he
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 31 Proxmire Oral History Project agreed to do it. So they had to hustle out around and get all those signatures in time to file his
name for - Henry Reuss was the other guy - he had to file against Henry Reuss which, in a way,
was a terrible thing to do because Henry had devoted a year of his life to beating Joe McCarthy.
But when the September results came in, Fairchild won. And Fairchild's campaign, up to that
point, was run by Ellen Proxmire's first husband. What was his name?
Sawall.
Warren Sawall.
Warren Sawall.
So after Fairchild won, an attorney by the name of Phillips here in town was sort of Chairman of the Fairchild Committee and the Fairchild Committee was going to have a strategy meeting at
Attorney Phillips's home. And they wanted Sawall to be there, of course, because he had been
running the campaign, but they also wanted me to come in. And I had been neutral because I was the Executive Director of the Party and I couldn't take sides in a primary.
We 're going to have to stop here and change the tape, okay?
Yeah, sure.
HOUR 2a
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 32 Proxmire Oral History Project Hour2a/00:00 PL's Appointment as TF Campaign Manager
Okay. This is hour number two of my interview with Governor Pat Lucey. We had to stop
abruptly because of the tape ending. But you were talking about remaining neutral.
Yes.
In the Democratic [primary] —
Right. And so finally the primary was held the second Tuesday in September, and lo and behold
Fairchild, who had only been in the race for two months, beat Henry Reuss who had been
campaigning for a year. And Warren Sawall had been campaign manager for Fairchild and so they wanted to have this meeting at Phil Marshall - I said Phillips - it's Phil Marshall's house.
And Phil Marshall insisted that I come in. And so Sawall and I decided we'd come in together
and he'd drive his car and we'd come to Phil Marshall's house here in Milwaukee and make
plans for the post-primary campaign. Well, unbeknownst to either of us, the first item on the
agenda was that they wanted Warren Sawall to step down and for me to become the campaign
manager. And they were just insistent on that.
Why was that?
Huh?
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 33 Proxmire Oral History Project Why was that, do you think?
Well, they apparently didn't think - they thought I could do a better job than Warren Sawall
could. And so I said well, obviously I wanted to do anything I could to get Fairchild elected, but
I said I'd taken this job with the Party and Jim Doyle was the Party Chairman, and I couldn't
accept their offer without talking to Jim Doyle. But I said, "I'll see him in the morning when I
get back to Madison." So here we are, Warren Sawall and I, driving back from this meeting
where he's just been fired. I can't imagine what we talked about for eighty miles. But the next
morning I went to Doyle's law office and explained what had happened. And I said, "I agreed to
run the Party through this period, and I don't want to just walk away from it." And he said, "No."
He said, "You agreed to come and work for the Party instead of working for your dad in his
business because you thought it was so important to beat Joe McCarthy." And he said, "It's just a
natural progression that you should go from being Executive Director of the Party to being the
Fairchild campaign manager now that Fairchild has won the primary." And so that was that. And
oh, he said, "But one thing more," he said, "I want you to pick your successor." He said, "We
don't want to leave that position blank in terms of the Party." So I went back to Party
headquarters and Esther Kaplan was there. Esther is a dear person. I don't know whether she's -
I sent her a Christmas card and it came back. I don't know - do you know anything about her?
One of the most productive people I ever knew. I told her about my conversation with Doyle.
And I said, "Now, my first job is to find somebody to take my place." And Esther was working, I think strictly as a volunteer, but she was sort of the Treasurer of the Party. She was keeping track
of the money and pounding the typewriter and so forth. She said, "Well, I've got just the person
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 34 Proxmire Oral History Project for you." She said, "John Gronouski is a grad student and he worked in Horace Wilkie's
congressional campaign last year." And she said, "He's just terrific." And she said, "I think you
could hire him over the phone. I just don't think that there's any question. He's the best person
you could possibly get to carry on for you for the next two months." So I called Gronouski, never
having met him, and explained the situation. And he said, "Well, I'm working on my doctoral
dissertation," but he said, "I guess I can shove that into the middle drawer of my desk for two
months and I'll take the job." So he came downtown and I gave him further information about
what was expected. I called Phil Marshall and said, "I'm ready to go to work." And so for the
next two months, then, I was the Tom Fairchild campaign manager. Jim Doyle was still out on the east coast raising money like mad to finance the campaign. I think for the whole Senate race
- from September primary until the general election - we only raised about forty thousand
dollars. You couldn't run for dog catcher with forty thousand dollars today.
And how was the money used, mostly, that was raised? How did you use the forty thousand?
I think most of it was raised on the east coast.
But how was it used?
How was it used?
Um-hmm. (affirmatively)
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 35 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, the forty thousand dollars - I'm sure we had radio spots. I don't think we had any television ... oh yeah, we did ... I remember we had a half hour on Channel 5 here in
Milwaukee the Sunday before the election, so we did have some television. But a half hour at
eight o'clock Sunday night, five hundred dollars. So the forty thousand, you know, you could
really stretch it quite a ways. The significance of that half hour - there's a fellow by the name of
Morgan who had been Hoover's specialist on communism. He had resigned from the FBI but he took the position that Joe McCarthy had a negative impact on the anti-communism battle that
was going on in Washington, and that he was a detriment to the anti-communist cause. And so he
came out here and he and Fairchild were on TV for a half hour and that was the theme of the thing. And oh, Channel 5 had a rule that you couldn't have somebody speak on the station unless they had a typewritten copy of what was going to be said. So he sat in his hotel room. My wife took perfect shorthand in those days. He dictated the whole speech to her. She typed it up. He
had it with him when he went to the station, and they never asked for it. But it was a very
effective campaign. I remember the next day, I was having lunch in a small restaurant in
downtown Milwaukee here, and there were tables of four. And all the tables within my earshot
were talking about that show that they watched the night before. Actually, I think Channel 5 was the only station in Wisconsin at that time. But we're getting off the Proxmire thing.
Well, I was wondering . . . it was the same year that Prox did his first run for Governor.
That's right. That was Prox's first run for Governor, and it was not against Kohler. It was against
Vernon Thompson, I think. In your notes -
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 36 Proxmire Oral History Project I got it.
You had him
Right.
Running against Kohler three times, but he only ran against Kohler twice.
Was he involved in any way in the Fairchild campaign'.'
Who?
Prox. Or were you involved in any way with his campaign?
Not too much, except we were delighted to have Proxmire running for Governor, because if we didn't have Proxmire, we would have had Herman Jessup from up north that nobody ever heard of, and Prox still lost by four hundred thousand votes, and Fairchild only lost by a hundred thousand. And Eisenhower beat Stevenson by about four hundred thousand. So in a way, we had a moral victory for Fairchild, because, you know, McCarthy clearly got the fewest votes of any
Republican running statewide. But it wasn't enough- And Prox put on a good campaign. I don't remember of any joint appearances, but there was certainly no effort to separate the two campaigns. I mean, we didn't try to shun Prox. We were delighted to have him making the race.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 37 Proxmire Oral History Project Tell me about his campaign at that point.
Huh?
Hour2a/10:20 JD's Gubernatorial Campaign
Do you remember anything about his campaigning style early on, then?
No. No, I don't. I don't have any recollection of what he spent or what he had -
Or perhaps what issues he ran on?
I don't know.
Okay. So they both lose in 1952.
Yeah.
And what's next for you?
Um . . . well, in '54,1 showed my gratitude to Proxmire in his sacrifice run in '52 by supporting
Jim Doyle in the primary against him in '54.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 38 Proxmire Oral History Project Tell me about that primary.
Well. . . oh, I had got in the lumber business. I had made a small contribution and this
lumberyard in Madison that was going bankrupt. And Bob Brooks, whom I had known at
Campion, and a guy by the name of Woodington, they bought this lumberyard on a shoestring.
And actually, I had run the Fairchild campaign out of a building that they owned in downtown
Madison. And so Bob Brooks had some idea of how I managed things, you know. So they
insisted that I had to become President of the lumber company. So I was in the lumber business
for, oh, six or eight months. And it was a shoestring operation, and I think kiting checks was as
illegal then as it is now. And I realized that most of the checks I signed were not covered. We'd
have to cover them before they'd reach their destination, you know. But so we were really kiting
And finally, they wanted me to get my dad to put forty thousand dollars into the business, and I
wouldn't do that. I didn't have that much confidence in it. So gradually I was easing out of it.
Did you stay in politics or in organizing —
Well, I'll get to that. But at any rate, while I was still in the lumber business, but sort of on the
way out, Doyle decides he's going to run for Governor, and my two partners in the lumber
business were both big Doyle supporters. So they said, "Look, we'll put you on half salary" -
and I think I was getting a thousand a month, then - "We'll put you on half salary and you can
run the Doyle campaign." So that's what I did. And we obviously didn't do very well. I mean,
Jim, frankly, was a lousy candidate. His son has turned out to be a much better candidate and
probably had a better campaign manager than his father had.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 39 Proxmire Oral History Project Could you compare and contrast Prox and Doyle in that campaign?
Yeah, to some extent. I had Doyle's car all set up. We used big, triangular signs on the car:
"Doyle for Governor" on three sides, you know. I had his car all set up with this sign. And he -
had a trip planned for him all through the northern counties. And he said, "I want that sign off that car." He said, "I'm not going to drive around with that silly sign on there." I said, "In other
words, you're going through the northern counties incognito?" But that was sort of the kind of
experience I had with Doyle in terms of making a candidate out of him. He was a wonderful,
wonderful human being, but he was not a good candidate. And later he ran for Circuit Judge and
was defeated. And I think that both Gaylord and John Reynolds would have appointed Jim Doyle to the State Supreme Court. Jim wouldn't accept the appointment. Why not? He didn't want to
be on the ballot again. And if he was appointed, you know, in two years he'd have to run. And he
was probably right; wonderful fellow, bright as they come, but a lousy candidate. And finally, of
course, he got a federal judgeship where he didn't have to run for re-election.
Interesting sidebar. What was Proxmire like in the '54 campaign? Do you remember his
campaigning style?
I was so involved with Doyle, I don't remember what Prox was doing.
So after Prox won the primary against Doyle, were you involved in his general campaign at all?
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 40 Proxmire Oral History Project Was I involved in the general campaign?
Uh-huh, right.
Not that I remember.
Okay. Do you remember anything that they differed on during that gubernatorial —
Huh?
During that primary, did Doyle and Proxmire differ politically on certain issues?
They didn't have any debates. I don't remember. I don't remember.
But they were very different in terms of personality?
Very much so. Very much so. And on TV, I thought Doyle would come through as a very warm
person and very articulate. And on TV, he was no match for Prox at all. Prox was very good on
TV and Doyle was not. That I remember, [interruption]
HOUR 2b
Hour2b/00:00 BP's Handshaking, PL's Support of BP in Senate Campaign, BP's Marriages
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 41 Proxmire Oral History Project Let's pickup after our brief break. Now, you had mentioned Prox on TV and being very good, at
least in comparison to Doyle.
Yeah.
Tell me a little bit about his persona, the politician Proxmire. What was he good at?
I don't remember. His whole career was one of handshaking. Did you ever hear of David
Adamany?
Um-hmm, um-hmm. (affirmatively)
David, for years and years and years, taught Politics 101 at UW Madison. In fact, it was so good that - who's the great columnist from The Washington Post? David . . . well, I'm getting off the
subject anyway. Proxmire used to start out his class by saying, "How many here ..." - these are
all college freshman - "How many have shaken hands with Bill Proxmire?"
Adamany started out his class asking that?
Yeah, yeah. And usually it would run about two-thirds.
Wow.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 42 Proxmire Oral History Project And you'd have a lot of out-of-state students, you know, but that's how wide Proxmire was with
his handshaking. He'd stand down here the whole week that we had the State Fair, at the floral
house and shake every hand. And one story I heard which, I don't know if you want to put it in the history or not, but at any rate, one woman said that she met Proxmire someplace and she
shook his hand she said, "Oh," she says, "I met you before. I met you at the State Fair."And she
said, "And he said to me, 'Oh, in front of the floral house.'" And she said, "Imagine, he
remembered me and remembered where we shook hands!" Well, that was the only place he
shook hands, (laughter)
That was pretty funny. What did you think of his handshaking?
Well, it was fine if you want to do it. I'd be bored to death doing it myself. But it worked. It
worked. I mean, he got re-elected year after year. I asked him one time how he handled the
abortion issue. He said, "Well, if I'm at a plant gate or someplace and somebody asks me about
it, I tell them I'm against it."
And was he really, do you think? Do you know?
Oh, I think so, yeah. But at that point in history, you didn't get into all the issues surrounding
abortion, you know. He just said he's against it, and walk on. Wendy [Wendall] Anderson, who
was Governor of Minnesota while I was Governor here, I said - we were talking about the
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 43 Proxmire Oral History Project different problems we have, and he says, "Yeah," he said, "for instance, take abortion." He said,
"You know, I never took abortion when I went to college." (laughter)
So, to back us up to 1954, which was when we were last talking about the Governor's race, after
Doyle lost the primary, did you stay involved in Democratic —
I don't - you asked me that already. I don't recall what I did. I think I was still gradually getting
out of the lumber business and I don't remember what I did from September till November that
year.
After Proxmire lost the second time, did you have a sense that he was going to remain a player in
the Democratic Party?
Oh, I think so, yeah. No, in fact - well, in c56, you know, he ran again. That was the second time
against Kohler. I don't remember being involved in that campaign. Elliot Walstead wanted to be the other Senator, I think, that year - or Elliot Walstead wanted to run for something. He was
running against Henry Meier. And I got very involved in helping Elliot Walstead, in addition to
running my real estate business. That was my main political contribution in c56. Then in '57,
when I got word that McCarthy had died, I came home. And Jean said, "You gotta call Proxmire
right away! You gotta call Proxmire!" "Why?" "Joe McCarthy died. He's got to run against
him." And so being a good, faithful husband, I called Proxmire. And I wrote a check for five
hundred dollars and I said that I felt that he had to be the candidate. Well, I discovered, to my
surprise, that an awful lot of people didn't agree with me. And so my Irish Democratic friends up
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript AA Proxmire Oral History Project in Green Bay were opposed to him. The Party Chairman, Philleo Nash, wanted somebody else.
And Philleo had some kind of a selection process that would have eliminated Proxmire, because that was his intention. But it didn't work, and Proxmire got the nomination and went onto win the election.
Do you know why they opposed him at that point? Was it because he had lost?
I think he had lost for Governor three times in a row. And my feeling was that it is a special
election, very short campaign, we can't build a name from scratch; we gotta go with a name that's already established as a statewide name. The only name we had was Proxmire.
And you were right.
Yeah.
Tell me about your personal relationship. Did you feel like there was a friendship between you,
or was it much more professional?
Well, you know, I couldn't say he's one of my drinking buddies, because he never drank. I don't think we socialized, particularly. Every time I saw him he was, you know, very serious about the
election, whatever election it was. He had a printing business, you know, over in Waterloo,
Wisconsin. And I don't know how well that did. At least it gave him sort of a cover while he was
running for office every two years.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 45 Proxmire Oral History Project Do you know how he supported himself? Was it through the printing business?
I suppose so. Of course, when he was married to a Rockefeller, that wasn't much of a problem.
But after that, why -
Do you know anything about the end of that first marriage and why that happened?
I think . . . who knows? I think McMillin was supposed to have married Mary - whatever her
name was - the Italian gal from the Bush. And he deserted her to - maybe they were married and
divorced, I'm not sure - but at any rate, we were all disappointed that he rejected Mary and then took up with Mrs. Proxmire. And I think there was something going on there before the actual
divorce occurred. And I think in fairness to Elsie, she just got fed up with the fact that Prox was
so dedicated to politics that she didn't see much of him.
So when he got married, then, to Ellen Sawall, he found somebody who was already more
involved in politics?
Yeah, yeah. And they were married - they must have been married about in c56,1 think, because
in '57, when I was the nominal chairman of the campaign - but the main thing I did for him was
write that five hundred dollar check -1 called her up a few days before the election. I think I've told you this before. And I told her, I said, "Ellen, this is like all the other campaigns you and I
have been in. There's just one difference. This time you're the wife of the candidate. And I'm
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 46 Proxmire Oral History Project just calling you to tell you that I don't see any outcome any different than we've had in previous
campaigns and you just ought to adjust to that result." And she shouted at me. She said, "Pat!
You don't understand! We 're going to win!" And my misspent, misdirected call to Ellen was, I think, the most direct thing I did about the campaign, (laughter)
Hour2b/10:35 PL's Party Chairman Campaign, Duties as Party Chairman, Impact of Special Election on Wisconsin Democratic Party
Really? So when you say you were his nominal campaign manager, who —
My title was Chairman of the Committee.
Okay.
But I wouldn't even claim to be a nominal campaign manager. He ran his own campaigns. I think the only person that came close to being a campaign manager was Ellen, and maybe more
so in subsequent campaigns to the '57 campaign. And then after he got elected, the State
convention was coming up right away, you know. And everybody thought - or a lot of people thought - that we ought to defeat Philleo Nash for State Chairman. So I said to Proxmire, "Who
do you want for State Chairman?" He said, "Anybody but Philleo." He was just so completely turned off by him. Philleo tried so hard to get somebody else to run instead of Proxmire, and then
apparently didn't do much to help Proxmire win once Proxmire became the nominee. And I went
up to Green Bay and talked to some of my Irish friends up there, and they didn't have a
candidate, didn't have any idea who should run. And I struck out in all directions. And I didn't
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 47 Proxmire Oral History Project really -1 didn't want to run, because I had this business, probably making . . . oh, thirty thousand
a year or so, which was good money in those days. And why should I neglect that and neglect
my family to be Party Chairman? But the closer we got to the deadline, the more apparent it was that, you know, I'd been asked to go find a candidate. I guess it was like Dick Cheney trying to
find a Vice Presidential candidate. So finally I decided I had to do it. And so then I really got on the phone and got busy calling delegates. And I remember the baseball team in Milwaukee was
in the World Series that year - first time ever, I gotta think.
Is this '57?
Yeah. And so I was sitting at a telephone calling Milwaukee delegates and I was very careful not to call during the game. I'd call right up to where the game started. Pick it up again as soon as the game was over. So they had fourteen hundred delegates at the convention, and I won by, I think, a margin of fourteen; fourteen votes. So it was not a landslide. Later I turned around as
Party Chairman and persuaded Philleo to run for Lieutenant Governor, and he won.
Interesting.
So he came out of it alright.
Yeah, yeah. So you were Party Chairman from '57 to —
'63.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 48 Proxmire Oral History Project '63. Tell me about those years and your then affiliation or involvement with Proxmire after he got into the Senate. How was he viewed, for example, by Wisconsin Democrats?
Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't remember having any conversations on that. I'm sure that many people thought he was not liberal enough for them, you know, especially Dane County
liberals. I think the Golden Fleece [Award] thing - some people, some conservatives, were very
pleased that he was doing it. I think some liberals thought it was sort of a joke.
Was he always somebody that you knew to be a watchdog against government waste?
Yeah.
Or was that something that happened after he got into the Senate?
Well, I guess I don't remember his being a deficit hound in the legislature. Of course, he was
only in the legislature that one session. And the legislature meets for about three months out of two years, and when the Democrats have, like, twenty-five to seventy-five Republicans, you
don't have much influence.
So during your time as the Chairman of the Party, did you try and influence —
His vote?
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 49 Proxmire Oral History Project Um-hmm. (affirmatively)
No, no.
Do you remember any specific issues that you discussed with him?
I don't. I don't remember.
In the 1958 election, then, after the special election, were you involved with that?
Oh, terribly involved. I was Party Chairman.
So what did that entail in terms of—
Well, it entailed recruiting candidates, although it wasn't very difficult. I mean, I recruited John
Reynolds to run for Attorney General. Chris Seraphin, here in town, insisted on running against
him in the primary. And the Party Chairman and the State are supposed to be neutral. And so
Jean wrote a check to Reynolds for five hundred dollars. And so some newspaper called her up
and said, "Mrs. Lucey, where'd you get five hundred dollars?" And without any coaching from
me, she said it was money she'd been saving for curtains, (laughter) It may or may not have been true, I don't know. But at any rate, Reynolds won that primary. Philleo was unopposed on the
Democratic side for Lieutenant Governor. And so we elected Reynolds Attorney General, elected
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 50 Proxmire Oral History Project Gaylord Governor, elected Philleo Lieutenant Governor. I think we won everything except
Secretary of State in '58.
So it was a huge year for Democrats.
Yeah, yeah. First ever. And frankly, at the time of the special election, if that had gone against us, I don't think you'd see a viable Democratic Party in Wisconsin to this day.
Really'?
I think that was the turning point. I mean, we had been working at it for almost a decade, and if we couldn't pull off that special election, I think most people would have lost interest and looked around for something else to do, whether it was playing golf or whatever. But winning that special election made all the difference. And if we hadn't won the special election, I wouldn't have become Chairman. And I was a pretty effective Chairman for six years.
Do you remember anything about the campaign in '57? Any of the campaign platform messages or how you got them out? I think there was some TV spots.
Oh, I'm sure there were. I'm sure there were. I just... I don't remember.
But in any case, in 1958, then, the huge Democratic breakthrough on all fronts, most fronts.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 51 Proxmire Oral History Project But it was because of Proxmire's special election win. And, of course, Prox won handily in '58,
because that special election only saw him through till the next general election.
How closely did you follow national politics after that? That was pretty significant time in —
Oh, I think I've followed national politics since 1928.
And you became pretty instrumental in Kennedy's run, right, in Wisconsin?
I guess you'd say instrumental. I was Party Chairman again. I was supposed to be neutral.
Governors are supposed to be neutral. Gaylord was for Humphrey. I was for Kennedy. I didn't
formally endorse him. I had two paid organizers in the field as Party Chairman. I didn't tell them
how they should vote. I think one of them voted for Kennedy. One of them voted for Humphrey.
I did tell them - we'd split the State down the middle from the north to south, so they each had -
one at east side, one was west side. And I told them, I said, "When the Humphrey people are
planning a big event, help them. Kennedy people are planning a big event, help them."
Hour2b/20:05 PL's Role in Kennedy Election, BP's Reluctance to Attend White House Functions, PL's Lieutenant Governor/Governor Campaign
And they did that. And, of course, Kennedy won. He didn't win as overwhelmingly as I thought
he might. I was hoping we'd carry every district. We lost the three districts that bordered
Minnesota, which wasn't too surprising. But then we lost the second district, which is Madison.
Why'd we lost the second district? Part of it was anti-Catholic ism, part of it was -1 think that
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 52 Proxmire Oral History Project was a big part of it - I'm trying to think ... at any rate, Kastenmeier was up for re-election in
'60. Twenty-thousand people who voted for Kastenmeier voted for Nixon in the general election.
I never dreamed that Nixon would - well, we were talking about the primary. And I was quite
confident about that. An interesting thing is Harvey Kitzman, who was the head of the UAW
[United Auto Workers] at that time, and Harvey was a big Humphrey man. And Harvey was with
Humphrey election night. And Harvey says that until the second district came in and Humphrey
had won it, he was not going to go to West Virginia. He was going to just call it quits right there.
I think that Kennedy, to beat Johnson, had to win West Virginia. And so it was really to
Kennedy's advantage that the second district went the way it did, because that kept Humphrey in the race. You never know how these things are going to work out.
No, you really don't, do you?
Ted Sorensen and I made out slips of paper, sealed, and exchanged them. And the day after
election, we were allowed to open them. And both of us had Kennedy carrying all ten districts.
But it must have been still a great year.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, back to Proxmire for a minute.
Yeah, (laughter) That is our purpose, isn't it?
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 53 Proxmire Oral History Project Did you have much contact with him when he was in Washington, politically? Talk about issues?
I know he sort of developed a special role for himself in the Senate.
Yeah. I didn't really. I was delighted about his taking on Lyndon [Lyndon B. Johnson], but I
certainly didn't contribute anything to it. I remember Ellen complaining to me one time that after
Kennedy won, she was getting all these wonderful invitations to the White House. And Prox
wouldn't go.
77e wouldn 't go?
No.
Why not?
Oh, I don't know. I think it was a notion about the independence of the co-equal branches. I
never discussed it with him. She would probably have a better feel for it. But I remember her
expressing to me her disappointment that if Prox wouldn't go, she couldn't go.
Yeah, sure.
Well, Prox was not one to socialize anyway, you know.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 54 Proxmire Oral History Project So even though he shook hands with almost everyone in Wisconsin, he wasn't a personable sort
of guy who you would sit down and have a beer with?
No, no, no.
Interesting. Would you consider him a strict Party loyalist, or do you think he was really quite
independent?
Well, I think he was independent. I think he recognized, looking at the history of Wisconsin, that the way you stay in the Senate is by being independent. I mean, look at old Bob LaFollette and
young Bob LaFollette.
Now maybe this is too much conjecture, but do you think it was part of his ambition that fueled
that, or whether that was a political philosophy that he really was, no matter what the Party
wanted, going to do what he wanted to do? You know, did he function by principle or by
ambition?
I don't know.
You can't really say? Do you have any thoughts about his legacy in Wisconsin, if he has one,
what it is? Or how he's impacted today's world, if at all, by his political accomplishments?
I can't think of anything. Are you going to interview Dave Obey?
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 55 Proxmire Oral History Project Um-hmm, um-hmm. (affirmatively)
Dave would have a better feel for it.
So, in the '60s, after the 1960 election of Kennedy, you then went on to become Lieutenant
Governor. Was that '64?
Um, in '62,1 helped John Reynolds become Governor. And then - I can't remember all the considerations involved - but after six years as Party Chairman, I decided that was enough- And so I announced that I would not run for re-election in '63. Then Reynolds said, "I want you to run for Lieutenant Governor." And I said, "You want a balanced ticket, two Irish Catholics?"
And he wasn't very Catholic as far as that goes. But at any rate, he insisted. And I ran, and to the surprise of most everybody, he lost and I won. I beat Jack Olson, the incumbent Republican
Lieutenant Governor, and he was defeated by Warren Knowles. Well then in c66,1 ran - I was
Lieutenant Governor. I felt if I didn't run against Warren Knowles in c66, somebody else would and then, like so many candidates, they'd figure they had three shots at it, like Proxmire did and like Warren Knowles did, finally. So I ran for Governor in c66, knowing that I probably wouldn't get elected. Knowles had managed to avoid any tax increase in his two years. In '68,1 was very involved in Presidential politics; first for Bobby [Kennedy] and then I went to the convention for
McCarthy and, finally, reluctantly endorsed Humphrey. But I didn't do anything in terms of
State politics. In '70,1 ran for Governor and was elected, and again in '74. But really, the important part of Proxmire's career is sort of a blank for me.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 56 Proxmire Oral History Project 77e did have a brief run at the Presidency in 1970 himself. Did you know that, or did you have any thoughts about that?
I wasn't aware of it.
Okay. Anything else about him? Do you remember any disagreements you had, politically, on issues?
No really.
No? I'm wondering if he influenced your views on anything, or vice versa?
Nothing comes to mind.
Campaigning)
Hour2b/29:20 PL's Endorsement of BP's Campaigning Style, Criticisms of BP for not Bringing Money to State
Well, well, let me tell you. As Party Chairman, I went around to candidates preaching the
Proxmire formula: six o'clock plant gates and bowling alleys, and just a full schedule from early morning until late at night. And in '62, that's the first time that Reynolds was elected Governor.
He'd been elected Attorney General in '58 and '60. '62 he was up for Governor. And John was
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 57 Proxmire Oral History Project lazy. And John had about five people on his campaign staff, and they asked for a meeting with
me as Party Chairman. And they were complaining that John was supposed to show up at some
meeting and he was up in the hotel taking a nap. And oh, they just had a whole list of complaints.
And they announced to me that they were all going to resign en masse. And so I said, "Well," I
said, "I can understand your feeling." I said, "I run around the State talking to local candidates
running for Assembly and State Senate, tell them the Proxmire story about how you gotta get up
earning in the morning and do a six o'clock plant gate and go right through until the ten o'clock
bowling alley that night and be up the next day at six o'clock and so on." And I said, "Reynolds
is just destroying that whole concept of a Proxmire-style campaign." And I said, "What bugs me
is that I'll never be able to talk the Proxmire story in the future because Reynolds, despite his
conduct, he's going to be elected." Nobody resigned, (laughter) And he got elected. But I talked them out of a revolt.
Well, it does seem like Proxmire had just an —
Huh?
It does seem like Proxmire had an inexhaustible amount of energy.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Did you ever have occasion to talk with him about his beliefs in health and wellness?
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 58 Proxmire Oral History Project Not too much, no. He wrote a book on it, didn't he?
Um-hmm. (affirmatively)
I think I've got it here someplace.
77e was sort of ahead of his day as a health nut.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's one funny story: there was a guy here in town. He was a lawyer of
sorts, not very much of one. But at any rate, and he would drive for Proxmire. And so he drove
Proxmire into the State Fairgrounds, and Proxmire took his position in front of the flower house
and was shaking hands. And Bill Clark had an idea that Proxmire was not very alert in these
situations. And so he said, "I got in line. I shook his hand. Went to the end of the line and shook
his hand again." He said, "The fifth time through, he said, 'Bill Clark! What are you doing
here?'" (laughter)
He was really a machine. He didn't even —
He got through four times before Proxmire recognized him. (laughter)
Do you think he could survive in today's political climate?
I don't know why not.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 59 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, I mean, spending as a little as he did on campaigns.
Well, that was amazing. Somebody said that the biggest expense item he had in his later
campaigns was the cost of postage, returning contributions. And a couple weeks ago, I was at a
luncheon where Herbie Kohl was the speaker. And I was sitting next to him. And I said, "You
know, the people in Wisconsin are sort of spoiled." I said, "First we had a Senator for years who
wouldn't spend any money. Now we have a Senator who only spends his own money." They say that Kohl's income for one week exceeds Feingold's salary for the year, (laughter)
Wow.
I think Feingold, by the way, has one of the best minds in the Senate. Do you know him at all?
Not personally, no. I guess that brings another question to mind, and that is what influence do you think Proxmire's career had on subsequent Wisconsin politicians, if anything? Do you think
anybody has taken his formula on a bit?
I don't know.
Sort of as the fiscal conservative or the independent?
Well, the independent thing came before Proxmire.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 60 Proxmire Oral History Project Right.
And it's still there. I mean, and Feingold is a classic example of it.
77e 's known for certain things like never missing a roll call vote in the Senate.
That's right.
And giving daily speeches on the Genocide Convention and things like that. As you worked at the
State level, were there things that — well, I guess I already sort of asked you that — but that you
had occasion to come in contact with the Senate office for? When you worked as Governor, were you in contact with his staff at all, or did you go to Washington?
I'd go to Washington. Every winter, the Governors have a conference in Washington. Every
summer they have a conference someplace other than Washington. The winter conference is to
lobby for money for your State. And it usually includes a White House dinner. I would also have
a dinner at the Madison Hotel and invite the entire Legislative Delegation. And Proxmire used to
show up for that. And I usually had perfect attendance. And some of the guys told me that
Gaylord and Johnny Burns from Green Bay, for example, would go a whole year without ever
seeing each other, except they'd see each other at the Wisconsin dinner. And so some of the
younger guys thought that my having these annual dinners was a good thing in terms of having the Wisconsin delegation get their heads together once in awhile.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 61 Proxmire Oral History Project Sure. But other than that, there was really no occasion to work on things together?
No.
Was there criticism that Proxmire should have brought more money home to the State?
Yes, yes. And you'll find people to this day that will be critical of that. In fact who was it... in the last twenty-four hours, somebody said to me that Bill - oh, Bill Krauss was Dreyfus's top
aide when Dreyfus was Governor. And I didn't get this directly from Bill. I got it from a woman
who used to work for Dreyfus. And she said, "We were talking about it the other day, and Krauss
said that the two worst Senators Wisconsin ever had was Joe McCarthy and Bill Proxmire." And
I said, "Well, I couldn't quarrel with him about McCarthy. But I said, "Why Proxmire?" And she
said, "Well, I think it's because he never did anything for the State. You know, he wasn't for
getting big contributions to the State projects and so forth." And Wisconsin has a reputation over the years of getting the least percentage of the amount of money we send to Washington, in
getting it back. I see Krauss at a luncheon twice a month. I'm going to hit him about that.
Was that a criticism that you had of him?
No, no. I don't remember any project that I thought he should have supported that he didn't
support. I'm trying to think of, as Governor, whether I had any issues. I don't think so.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 62 Proxmire Oral History Project So it sounds like the level of contact that you had with him was pretty minor during his Senate career.
Yeah, right, right. You're going to talk to a lot of people that would fill in that.
Sure, yeah. Any other thoughts or stories that you remember of times that you spent together, either in Washington or here? I know he flew back to Wisconsin almost every weekend.
What's that?
77e came back to Wisconsin a lot.
Hour2b/39:50 BP's Legacy
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember several times being in Washington and staying at their house.
But even then, I saw more of Ellen than I did of him. I think maybe Jean and I stayed at their house for the Kennedy inaugural. And I went to the Lyndon Johnson inaugural under interesting circumstances. I'd been elected Lieutenant Governor that year when Warren Knowles was elected Governor. Or Warren had been re-elected Governor. And he said, "You know, that show in Washington is really a Democratic show." He says, "Why don't I stay home and you go and represent the State?", which I thought that was very nice of him. And so I received all the attention that the Wisconsin Governor would get.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 63 Proxmire Oral History Project Sort ofpreppedyoufor the future.
Right, right.
Well, is there anything you think that the people who study Proxmire's life should know about him? When we think about legacy, what do you think his should be?
Well, I think it's awfully good that there are people, and I would hope there'd be people like him in other generations, that are willing to just devote a lifetime to public service and not expect to get anything back from it themselves, you know? It's just a selfless kind of thing, really.
Well, you 've certainly done a lot of that in your own career.
Well, I've tried.
Well, thank you for letting me interview you.
Well, I think you've drained me of just about - in fact, you've gotten some things that I wouldn't have thought of my own, some of those early day things, like going over to La Crosse to set up my campaign and so forth.
Well, good. And certainly if there's more that you think of, you just let me know.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 64 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, and the business of our doing those press releases. As I have been thinking about this the
last week or so, that didn't come to me until just when you got here.
Memory is an interesting thing.
Hmm?
Memory is an interesting thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, hopefully I'll have the opportunity to interview you again someday.
I hope so, hope so.
Thank you for spending this time with me.
I gave a long interview to the Kennedy Library. They must have a lot of stuff there.
Well, this is where I'll end this tape, then.
Okay.
Patrick Lucey Interview Transcript 65 Proxmire Oral History Project Thank you.
Patrick Lucey interview Transcript 66 Proxmire Oral History Project