This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu

ROBERT J. DOLE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Interview with

HOWARD O. GREENE, Jr.

July 11, 2007

Interviewer

Brien R. Williams

Robert J. Dole Institute of Politics 2350 Petefish Drive Lawrence, KS 66045 Phone: (785) 864-4900 Fax: (785) 864-1414

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[Howard Greene edited this transcript. Consequently, it may be at slight variance at some points with the original recording.]

Williams: This is an oral history interview with Howard O. Greene, Jr., for the Robert J. Dole Institute of Politics at the University of Kansas. We’re in Howard’s home in Mount Vernon, Virginia. Today is July 11, 2007, and I’m Brien Williams. Howard, let’s start with a little bit of your family background and the steps that led you eventually to the U.S. Senate.

Greene: Brien, I was born in Delaware; Lewes, Delaware. Graduated from Wesley College in Dover, Delaware, and transferred over to the University of Maryland. Was looking for a part-time job in the Washington [D.C.] area. My father mentioned that I go down on Capitol Hill and look up an old hunting friend of his by the name of Senator John Jay Williams of Delaware, who has been my mentor. In the year ’68, January of ’68, I got a job as seating tours up on the third floor of the Capitol, worked my way into the Senate Republican cloakroom, answering telephones on his patronage, which is a thing of the past now in the Senate. In ’69, my job in the cloakroom was to sit there with two other gentlemen and answer the telephones, answer questions from Senate offices, or to do whatever a senator asked us to do as they came in the cloakroom, make phone calls, do this, do that, whatever. I worked my way up from there to the assistant secretary of the minority in the late seventies, and from then in ’81, when [Ronald] Reagan came into control and we had taken back the majority for the first time since 1954, I became the Secretary for the Majority. In other words, I was sort of the, so to speak, right-hand man for the Leader, [Sen.] Howard [H.] Baker [Jr.]. Baker retired in ’84, I think it was, and Bob [Robert J.] Dole became the Leader. I retained that position back and forth between Majority and Minority Leader until ’95, when I was made the Sergeant-at-Arms of the United States Senate, the Sergeant-at-Arms doorkeeper and protocol chief, and I stayed in that position until I retired from the Senate in late ’96, and that job encompassed a budget of about 110 million dollars, 38 million of it was salary. I had about 1,050 civilian employees, plus about 1,200-member police force in eight or ten major compartments to deal with on the Hill.

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By that time I was pushing up to thirty years [on the Hill—HG] and I knew that I had walked those marble halls just about long enough, and after Senator Dole retired, with his farewell speech in June of ’96, I exited in September of ’96.

Williams: Good. We can stop now. [laughs]

Greene: Was that too long?

Williams: No, that was a good review. Now let’s go back and fill in the details.

Greene: Okay.

Williams: Did you grow up in a family where there were strong political feelings and lots of political discussion, or was it more just this hunting connection with Senator Williams?

Greene: It’s funny you would ask. My grandfather was in politics in the Delaware state legislature. He lived in Dover, and I think he may have served a couple of terms in the state legislature. I got involved in that because every time we would go to my grandparents’ house in Dover from Lewes, Delaware, about a forty-five-minute trip, we always sat down before we had any dinner or anything like that, to watch Meet the Press. As a young kid, we were told to sit down and be quiet and listen. We had no idea what they were talking about or cared, but for some reason some of that got in my blood, and from then on I knew when I got to college I wanted to have some input in political science and U.S. history. That was really the first thing that got me going, because for some reason, as a probably twelve- or fourteen-year-old, I got interested in what was being said on Meet the Press. I couldn’t explain why if you put a gun to my head, but that and the 1963 assassination of [John F.] Kennedy, where I just didn’t go to work for three days, I sat in a chair and watched the proceedings and the funeral and whatever, it really got into my blood. Then when this opportunity came up for me on Capitol Hill to take a patronage job under Senator John Williams from Delaware, I realized after a few days when I came

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 4 to work that day before or after classes at University of Maryland, when I would pull up to that Capitol dome, my heart would start beating faster, and sometimes I would pull in there and say, “How in the world did I ever get this position?” to the point that some days even tears would come to my eyes. “What am I doing here?” I loved it, every minute of it, and the more opportunities I had, the more I was lucky enough to proceed up the ladder. It was just a great career. I couldn’t ask for any better. And I still love politics. Of course, it’s not in my blood as much as it was because I think I exhausted most of my energy in the thirty years of trying to do the best job I could on the Hill.

Williams: You mentioned the term “patronage” and it no longer applies. Explain what patronage was.

Greene: Patronage years ago, when senior senators were allotted so much money on their staff to hire a person as a policeman, the policemen years ago were not professional. They could go to college while they were policemen. The more senior a senator became—and Senator John Williams was very senior, he was ranking on the Finance Committee—the more patronage positions they had. Patronage positions included, as I said, policemen, pages, elevator operators, doorkeepers, grounds crew. The word “intern” did not apply then as it does now, so it would have to be people who would help out in the office to do what is now called the go-fer jobs, just sort of add-ons the senator could use as political favors for people back home who helped him get elected office.

Williams: Do you recall when an end was put to the patronage system?

Greene: Well—

Williams: I don’t mean the date necessarily, but the arguments against—

Greene: I think most of it came when the police department had to go to a professional police department because of some of the early bombings in the Capitol, which went back into the early seventies, and I think also the crime wave around the Capitol, that

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 5 once the police department stopped being patronage appointments, that a lot of senators decided that it looked a little bad for those senators to put people who had raised the most money in their campaign to relatives or grandsons and stuff like that, and I think the new times were about on them where the news media was starting to look over their shoulders and they thought it was a good thing to get rid of it. I know that’s a poor explanation of why, but I think it had passed its time as far as favors being put out in a form of patronage appointments.

Williams: You mentioned the four offices, the floor offices, I think you referred to. Is that correct?

Greene: Right.

Williams: Explain those four offices, what they are and their function. You briefly touched on it, but in a little more details. And then I’d like you to say if changes occurred in any of those four over your tenure in the Senate.

Greene: First of all, I don’t think that much changed because those four offices [of the Senate—HG] have been there since almost the creation of the Senate back in—years ago. I’m not going to try to guess when. But the secretary for majority and the secretary for minority are interchangeable, obviously, as I said, because one majority is the ruling party, whether Democrats or Republicans, and the others are the tail waggers, the minority party. There is the secretary of the Senate, which is sort of the top position in the Senate, which oversees the payroll, it oversees the binding and printing of the bills to be sent to the White House for the president’s signature. It oversees really the swearing-in and the authorization of newly elected or newly appointed senators and so forth and so on. Again, the secretary for majority and secretary for minority, as I said, are officers of that particular party. We would run the cloakroom, we would run the page service, we had the responsibility of having the information people, had the people on telephones in the cloakroom giving out information to offices, staff, to senators, and then to lobbyists and interest groups from the outside, would call and say, “When is that vote scheduled?

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When is that bill coming up? When do you expect that bill to pass?” It had to do with committee assignments, which was when the ratio changed or the number of senators changed in the Senate, the ratio would change and therefore the majority party would have more members on the committees than the minority party, and you’d have a give- and-take or a lose-and-gain situation on the committees. We handled the taking of the votes on the floor, where we’d have a little crib sheet for senators to see when they came in to vote. It had to do, back in the early years, with little beepers that we would beep senators when there was a vote. Before that, we had to call them on the telephone and hope that we could find out where they were, to say, “All right, it’s nine o’clock at night. We expect to vote at nine-thirty,” rounded the senators up. It was much more than that, but that was the teeth of the job. Of course, the sergeant-at-arms’ job is, as I explained to you briefly earlier, was much more encompassing, because that was really the physical factory of the Senate, mainly security. After the bombing in Oklahoma City in ’95, when I became sergeant-at- arms, and then 9/11 and what have you since then, that has really been a situation where a lot of money has been funneled into the security of the Senate, the police force is much more professional than it has been in the past. When I was there in ’95, after the explosion in Oklahoma City, I started to close some streets around the office buildings, and they told me, “Howard, you’re crazy. They’re going to take you apart for this. You can’t tell senators they can’t park on that street. You can’t make that street a walkthrough.” Well, we put barricades up and we put up kiosks, made senators and everybody else show their identification, and they wanted to put a fence around the Capitol, which we didn’t think we were ready for that, but the security really changed almost overnight, to the point now, even though I was told that I would be hung in the nearest tree if I tried to block some avenues around the office building, now it’s like a fortress there. You can’t get around because of the barricades and balusters and everything else. Of course, the sergeant-at-arms also included the computer center, the service department where senators had their charts and stuff printed. It included the parking. It included the grounds crew. It included the physical plant as far as the elevators, mechanics of the elevators, the cleaning of the buildings and Capitol, the office buildings. It was quite a big job.

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Williams: That was non-partisan?

Greene: No, the sergeant-at-arms was a job that was usually delegated to the Majority Leader, so if the Republicans were in control, you had a Republican sergeant-at-arms and a Republican secretary of the Senate. Vice versa if the Democrats were in control.

Williams: But you had to evenly serve the interests of both parties.

Greene: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Secretary for majority and secretary for minority, you work for that party. As secretary of the Senate, even though you’re appointed by the Majority Leader and the sergeant-at-arms appointed by the Majority Leader, you are secretary of the Senate and you are sergeant-at-arms of the Senate, and your responsibility was to 100, not to the 47, 53, 52 that we had as Republicans through the years. Absolutely. I shouldn’t have left that out. Yes, you had to deal with the Democrats as well as the Republicans.

Williams: Did that force you to do a characterological change in your mindset or—

Greene: No, it didn’t. Made it easier for me because when you’re there for that many years, you make friends on both sides of the aisle. I mean, we would fly around the world on these so-called CODELs, congressional delegation trips, with Republican senators and Democratic senators, and there’s nothing like flying on an airplane for two weeks to six or eight stops around the world, you’re on the same plane together, you eat meals together, you stay in a hotel together, you go to banquets together, you do this, and you get to know these people away from the United States Senate, and you finally realize, my god, they’re real people and they’re good people. I got to know a lot of Democrats, and we would go to Baltimore to the baseball games together—[Sen.] Tom Eagleton, [Sen. James] Jim Exon, people like that who were baseball fans. I enjoyed being able to sort of expand on those relationships with Democrats, and they were friends. I mean, we were there twelve, sixteen, eighteen hours a day brushing shoulders all the time, and I enjoyed that part of it. Of course, you have to be careful because you don’t want to act like you’re giving more help to the Democrats

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 8 when the Republicans are in control, but I never had a problem with that. For some reason I was able, through, I don’t know, maybe I had the right makeup or something, I was able to get along with almost everybody there, Democrat or Republican, and consider a lot of them friends.

Williams: Before we leave the structure of these Senate offices, you’ve mentioned doorkeepers and the cloakroom. Give us a little bit of what that was all about.

Greene: Doorkeepers upstairs in the Senate, in the second floor and third floor, were all assigned to the various doors in the Senate chamber, on the second floor with a uniformed policeman and a plainclothes policeman, and we were there to identify senators as they came in and went out, to keep staff from coming in because they had to go around to the back of the chamber to be checked in and get an ID card. We had to be careful that a former senator didn’t walk up to one of those doors, who have floor privileges for life, and were turned around by a policeman who didn’t happen to know who they were. The doorman upstairs would seat these various school groups that would come in in the summertime, endlessly, and line up through the bowels of the basement of the Capitol and work their way back to the first and second and third floor to sit for fifteen minutes and watch the Senate in session from the gallery, and we had to quietly seat them and keep them quiet and ask them to get up gently and leave without interrupting the floor operation. That was the first job I had in the Senate. Back then they were patronage jobs, and now they are to a degree, but they’re patronage jobs as hired by the sergeant-at-arms and not through various senators, although various senators still have the so-called suggestions to the Office of the Senate as to who they might want to take a look at to employ, if you follow my drift.

Williams: Are these career positions or people moved in and out over two- or three-year terms?

Greene: A lot of them through the years, Brien, were just temporary because a lot of the doormen, as I said before, were going to school. Then it got to the point where a lot of

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 9 doormen, because of security, became retired metropolitan police or state police from surrounding areas, who had retired, or even so, military who would do their so-called double dipping, but they had the police and military experience, which worked well to serve on the doors as security with a uniformed and a plainclothes policeman.

Williams: What about the cloakroom itself? What was that?

Greene: The cloakroom is the nerve center of the Senate. I mean, that’s where the senators would hang out if they had someone—I shouldn’t lead off with this. If they had someone coming in their office that they didn’t want to meet, they would always say they had something to do in the cloakroom. What few smokers were left would sit in there and smoke their pipes or smoke their cigars. The staff would come in and have the senators sign papers, sign the mail in the cloakroom. It was very restricted. We didn’t allow staff to hang out in there. They could come in with their little chores to the senators, as far as paperwork and correspondence and stuff like that. We had three and then four desks at the end of the cloakroom where people would answer the telephones, which I’ve alluded to, questions from senators, from staff members, even from outsiders, but probably most of the questions, 75 to 80 percent of all the questions were from a scheduling secretary or a personal secretary that wanted to know—would ask the impossible questions, “My senator’s got to be in Kalamazoo on Friday. He’s got to leave at eleven o’clock. Will he miss any votes?” “My senator won’t be in town on Tuesday. His aunt is ill in Colorado. Will he miss any votes?” That became a pain in the neck, because that was all forwarded to the Leader, and you cannot run the Senate or any other business when everybody’s going hither and yon and expect to be protected. But the main purpose was to answer the impossible questions as to, “When do you expect that bill to come up? I need to know when Senator so forth and so on is going to offer his amendment.” “This is so forth and so on from the news organization. Do you know a head count on so forth and so on’s amendment?” which was completely out of our purview. Little questions like that. It was mostly the page operation out of the cloakroom, and that was the gathering place for senators to sit and chitchat among themselves, to ask for senators to co-sponsor their amendments, ask for

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 10 senators to add their language to amendments to get their vote, to do head counts on important pieces of legislation. It was the nerve center.

Williams: There was a cloakroom for Republicans and there was a cloakroom for Democrats? Or am I wrong?

Greene: That’s right. Cloakroom for Democrats, cloakroom for Republicans. It’s a funny story about that. Back in the early sixties, Patricia Nixon and Julie [Nixon] had Prince Charles and Princess Anne over, and we were told to be in the cloakroom one morning at six-thirty, because they were coming up to have a tour of the Senate. Prince Charles and Princess Anne were, I guess, maybe early teens. Had to be, because Julie and—I guess the late teens or something like that. Maybe early twenties. Anyhow, they were standing in the well of the Senate, and I came down from the Republican cloakroom down in the well of the Senate, the center of the Senate, where the two Leaders’ desks are located, and we gave a little talk about the cloakrooms and how the statues around the chamber are the various vice presidents of the United States, and this gallery is where the president would send up representatives from the executive department to watch what’s going on, and over here would be the press, and over here is what is called the vice president’s gallery, and over here is the family gallery where senators’’ wives and friends can come in and watch the senator speak or vote or whatever. And of course, over here, to get back to your point, Brien, over here—and I pointed on the right side of the back of the chamber and on the left side of the back of the chamber—are the two cloakrooms, Republican and Democrat. Prince Charles hesitated for a second, and he looked at me with a serious look on his face and he says, “Oh they each have their own.” I didn’t know how to handle that, and I said, “Yes, sir, they do.” Well, little did I know after they left that a cloakroom in England was a bathroom. So he thought I was referring to the two rooms immediately off the Senate chamber as the place where the Republicans use the bathroom and the Democrats use the bathroom. Somehow a press person got hold of that story and they wanted to run it, and we had all we could do to keep that off, because it would have been embarrassing as hell to the Brits or to Prince Charles and Princess Anne. But now that you’ve brought that

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 11 cloakroom up, I just had to add that one to the story. It was one of the little quirks that happened along the way. But they were just as serious as they could be, because that was what was the bathroom in England.

Williams: Funny story. Where would a Republican who wanted to chat with a colleague who’s a Democrat, where would they go to sit and talk, like Republicans would do in the cloakroom or Democrats?

Greene: Well, sometimes they would go in either of the two cloakrooms and sit and chat, but sometimes that was a little difficult because if it was a time when senators were waiting to vote or waiting to speak, it was pretty crowded. So now you’d get to the second most important hangout there is in the United States Capitol in the Senate wing, and that is behind all the dusty statues that align those halls, and the word is around the Capitol, if those statues could ever talk, they would be able to explain how bills pass back to the early 1800s. Two senators would be leaning up against the statue and they would be talking political strategy, who can we get to co-sponsor this amendment, when should we offer it, how much money should we—put too much money in it, so much money in it? So forth and so on. A lot of the talks, as you alluded to, the personal talks, trying to fine-tune something, happened in the corridors, hanging on to statues of Tom, Dick, and Harry.

Williams: So from what you say, I gather that a Democrat would be welcome to come into the Republican cloakroom to chat with a fellow member.

Greene: They would do that once in a while, but they would feel so uneasy, either way, especially, like I said, if there was a crowd of senators coming in or they were constantly coming in or walking through from the outside to come to the cloakroom to go to the Senate floor. They’d usually take their little skull sessions elsewhere, but, yes, they were interchangeable to a degree.

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Williams: Since we’re on this “where senators hang out,” you had mentioned, when you were talking about some of the pictures here, that there were some places where guys would go to, quote, unquote, play cards. Tell me about that.

Greene: Well, for years there was always the hangouts. Like I said, it was the Twilight Lodge up in S337, which was my old office and Mark Trice, who was the secretary for the minority and secretary of the Senate for fifty-three years. Then it sort of got away from the secretaries for the majority or minority of hosting those so-called card parties, and the hangout really became the secretary of the Senate mostly, and sometimes the sergeant-at-arms’ office, or they remodeled a lot of parts of the Capitol back in the seventies and eighties and created a lot more senators’ hideaways in the Capitol. Senators’ hideaways are little rooms which were made over, some small, some very small, some looking toward the Mall, some with no windows, and they were their hideaway in the Capitol. And more so than anything else for going up through the seniority list, as far as how long you’ve been there, of course the most important thing of seniority would be what committee assignments you might get the longer you stayed there, your parking place would be enhanced, but the most sought-after thing in that building was the senators’ hideaways, because the higher you were on the seniority list, in other words, where you ranked on the Democrat or Republican list of senators, the more appropriate hideaway you would get, and they were used a lot as they increased the remodeling of the Capitol. When I left there, I think they were up to [50 or 60—HG]—I remember back, when there were twenty, twenty-six or twenty-seven then. Of course, they were all given to the old bulls, so to speak, back in the [Sen. Everett] Dirksen and [Sen. Hugh] Scott days, as in Senator Dirksen and Senator Hugh Scott, Republican Leaders, but as they increased in size, a lot of senators would use those as the place where they’d congregate instead of the cloakroom or behind the statues, and they would take the fat cats who would come in, or the corporate heads, and instead of marching them through the office buildings where they were visible to everybody, they would take them to the Capitol and go down in the dining room and eat, and then they’d go up and have their little meeting in their so-called hideaways. And some were very elaborate.

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Williams: When you first started serving the Senate, were there hideaway offices already then?

Greene: Oh yes. My office, which was S337 in the Capitol, third floor, looked straight down the Mall to the Washington Monument. I had three windows, two little offices, and my whole floor was nothing but senators’ offices, except for my office in the corner when I became secretary for the majority, even before when I was assistant secretary for the minority. I worked out of that office with my then boss [Mark Trice—HG].

Williams: But the numbers of hideaway offices increased.

Greene: Have increased through the years, yes, because they were so attractive. I mean, that was a big power grab. Not the parking place. Yes, the committee assignments, but when you had a hideaway that looked straight down the Mall toward the Washington Monument or sometimes looked over the other way toward the Supreme Court and the Library of Congress, or if it was a big room where you could have a couch, where they could sleep at night for all-night sessions, and a sink or a wet bar, or whatever, that was the crème de crème.

Williams: Who assigned people to these hideaway offices?

Greene: It was primarily the Rules Committee would handle the assignment of the hideaways by straight seniority. In other words, the most senior person there would get the best one. Go back to [Sen.] Robert Byrd or [Sen.] Ted [Edward M.] Kennedy or [Sen. Daniel] Inouye, speaking of senior senators now, would always get the cream of the crop.

Williams: So they were like musical chairs; they were constantly changing offices, is that right?

Greene: That’s right, because as people retired or as people were defeated, especially if they’d been there for a number of years, for two terms or three terms, as those offices

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 14 became vacant, it would start the chain of events again. So the old bulls who had hideaways would say, “Oh, he’s got a better view than I’ve got. I want that one.” And it would all start all over again, just as committee assignments, when senators would leave, we’d have to work on ratios. Senators would say, “I’ve been on this committee too long. I’m going to go to that committee. I’ve got seniority. There’s an opening. I’ll see if I can get on that,” or some senators would say, “I’ve been on this committee long enough. I’m running for reelection. I’ll try to get on the Finance Committee,” because you can raise more money putting out a sign being on Finance Committee than any other committee. Seniority is the heartthrob, the heartbeat of how that place runs.

Williams: I want to ask you—this is hard for a lot of people when I ask people for, quote, unquote, describe a typical day, but I want you to try to do that, first of all, when you were secretary for the minority. What would a typical day have been for you as the secretary for the minority?

Greene: When we were in the minority, much, much easier a day, much less pressure than being secretary for the majority. We would get to work and we would—

Williams: What time?

Greene: Well, it all depends. Sometimes back then [like in the Mansfield days—HG] the Senate wouldn’t go into session until ten or eleven, twelve o’clock back then. Now I’m talking about the early seventies. Now it’s eight, eight-thirty, or nine o’clock. We would get there and get the cloakroom settled up, and the pages would make sure that the desks were all covered with the bills of the day or amendments of the day, and the Congressional Record from the following day. We would sort of check around to see how many—if a bill was pending and carried over from the previous day, whether there were any amendments that people on our side wished to offer. Of course, when you’re in the minority, it’s easy to throw hand grenades. In the majority, it’s tough to catch them. So a lot of mischief would go on then, and we would sort of, as best we could, sort of get a batting order for the day as far as senators were concerned, but again we couldn’t do too much of that because we were in the minority. I mean, if you’re in the minority,

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 15 recognition by the chair is to the majority first, and back then it was very, very strict. It’s loosened since through the years, where it’s sort of one side one time, the other side the next time [but that is just a non-written agreement—HG]. But it was pretty much just to keep the senators informed what’s going on in the cloakroom, on the floor, see that the pages were doing their jobs, continue to honor senators’ requests for information about a bill that was going to come up. In other words, some of them would call and say, “Howard, that conference report coming over from the House, don’t let that pass. I need to speak on that.” “Howard, I have an amendment to this bill. Don’t let that bill come up.” So I had a calendar which we called the bible, the legislative calendar, of all the bills that were listed out of committee, and underneath each one of them we had notes. “Contact so forth and so on to speak. Contact so forth and so on two amendments. Wants to speak thirty minutes before final passage,” all written underneath that bill, and that was our bible which we used in the minority to sort of— people would get up and—a prime example, [senators—HG] at the end of a bill, get up and say, “I voted against this bill because it’s a rotten bill, and here’s why I think so, and here’s why it’s going to cause certain problems for my state.” That’s just an off-the-wall example, but I think it shows the drift of how we would be—I don’t want to use the word “negative,” but play defense against legislation that was being choked down our throats back in the seventies when the ratios were 57-43 or something like that. I hope that answers your question. I did as best I could, but I don’t want to get deep into holes and personalities of senators who wanted to hang up things and delay things.

Williams: Well, I don’t want to discourage you from that.

Greene: Of course, delay was the name of the game then, too, to get back to the filibuster and the speeches and years when, for example, [Sen.] Strom Thurmond spoke for twenty- four straight hours, and other senators tried to reach that level. Of course, that was back in the civil rights bill of ’60 and civil rights bill of ’64. When I got there, it was mostly the “end the war” amendments against the Vietnam War, when they were trying to cut off the funds, as they seem to think that the political thing to do, and I emphasize the “political” thing to do, today with what’s going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. But you had

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 16 a very, very tense time with [Sen.] John Stennis as chairman of the Armed Services Committee in dealing with amendments such as the Hatfield-McGovern Amendment to cut off funding, or Church-Case Amendment to do the same in a different way or a different time schedule for a Case-Church Amendment. I’m talking about senators from years ago, to cut off the funds. And that went on for weeks and weeks and weeks, and that’s really where Bob Dole started to cut his teeth when he got there in ’69, because [he opposed—HG] the end-the-war amendments, really pulling that thing down. Then we had the demonstrations out in front of the Capitol on a number of occasions when thousands would be out there protesting the War. But it was very tedious times. Very tedious times. I think I missed part of your question in the beginning.

Williams: I was asking about a typical day as minority secretary. So would most of your day be spent on the floor of the Senate if it’s in session, or in the cloakroom and in your office, or did you also be meeting with the Minority Leader a lot? Where would you go? Where would you be personally?

Greene: When I got there, 99 percent of the time I was on the floor. The job—well, the way I looked at it, my job as secretary for the majority or secretary for the minority was to be on that floor and to watch what was going on, and the longer you stayed there, the more savvy you got about how you could predict what was going to happen, and if it was something that there was an amendment that we didn’t expect to be offered or an amendment that would blow the bill out of the water, or something just off the wall, it was my job to go down and get the Leader. You could also predict, after being there a number of years, when you saw a Ted Kennedy, an [Sen.] Al [Albert] Gore [Jr.], a [Sen.] Paul Sarbanes, a few other liberals like that, coming in all at one time, you knew something was up, and you knew that something was up that the Republicans were not going to go along with. So you’d run the red flag up. You’d call the people who might be interested in something in that bill. If it was a busing bill, it was [Sen.] Jesse Helms. If it was something dealing with Health and Welfare, it was [Sen.] Lowell Weicker. If it was something dealing with the military, it was [Sen.] John Tower or [Sen.] Barry Goldwater or someone like that. Or if it was something dealing with finance, it would be

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[Sen. Packwood, Sen. Bill Roth or—HG] [Sen.] Carl Curtis or someone like that. It took a long time to get a feel of what was going on, but when you saw something was coming, whether you were reacting or overreacting, you had to let the Leader know, because the Leader couldn’t be on the floor. Like I said, 90 percent of the time I was in the cloakroom, which is part of the floor, or on the floor. Now, with Baker and much, much more so with Dole, I would make twenty to thirty trips, sixty-three steps down those marble halls from the Senate main door down to the Majority Leader’s office for this, that, and the other. “Did this get done?” “Did you talk to so forth and so on?” “Did Senator so forth and so on tell you about wanting the vote changed because his plane is going to be late?” I could go on for—you catch my drift. But most of the time was to watch that floor, to be sure that those notes on that so- called bible, the legislative calendar, were honored when a senator wanted to be there to speak for or against an amendment that he might offer or oppose one by someone else, or speak for or against the bill. You had to be there [to watch and listen—HG].

Williams: Let’s take a pause here.

[tape recorder turned off]

Williams: You ready?

Greene: I’m ready. I did have to find my way up to my office two or three times a day, but I didn’t get to spend much time out there because the phone would ring and I was needed on the floor. But I did have to do things like signing papers for kids who applied for a page job or other things like getting ready for committee assignments or to handle work that came from revised roles from the Senate Conference Committee, which was a spinoff of the Republican Conference Committee and Republican Policy Committee. So I had paperwork up there, but I always did have a very, very qualified secretary and AA that worked for me from the time that we took over control in ’81 until I left in ’96, Marie Angus. I don’t know how I could have pulled the job off without her. But I didn’t spend as much time in the office as I wanted to, because most of my time was, like I said, on the

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 18 floor or in the cloakroom or in the Leader’s office or in some confab again leading up against the statue between the two, when a senator or Leader wanted to talk in confidence.

Williams: So would you and the Minority Leader strategize a lot?

Greene: Sometimes. Most of that would be done by the committee people who had the bill on the floor, some of his people, the Leader’s people in his office who handled the bill through committee and had expertise in that field. We were really the nuts and bolts of the bill when it got to the floor as to notifying people, as I’ve said—and I’m being repetitious here—people who wanted to be there to speak when a bill came up or to offer amendment or to oppose it or something like that. We wouldn’t strategize. We would a little bit, because we’d have to get in a parliamentary situation. If it was going to be a very controversial bill, then the Leader and [and the floor and the committee staff and— HG] we in the cloakroom would sit and talk about what were we going to do about cloture, what’s the right time to offer this amendment or that amendment, would some senators offer a first-degree amendment and someone try to come in and get a second- degree amendment. Of course, that’s all depending again on whether you had priority recognition, and if you were minority, you did not. You sat and waited your turn and got the crumbs. Yes, I was part of that because I had to be on the floor all the time, as I say, and I had to know what was going on in order to protect those people who needed to be there for this, that, or the other.

Williams: If you saw a group of liberal Democrats coming onto the floor and you needed to alert someone, would you do that by phone from the floor, or would you literally have to go off the floor and—

Greene: No, I didn’t have time to wait for a telephone. I didn’t have time for a secretary to pick up the phone down in the office and, “Wait a minute, Howard. I’ll put you on hold,” and stuff like that. No.

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Williams: So you would move physically.

Greene: That was all footwork. And if he was in the office and he was meeting with someone, I’d sort of take the temperature as to who it was and what it was all about, but if it was important enough, I’d knock on the door and say, “Leader, we need you. I need you on the floor.”

Williams: So you would—I’m just thinking of a baseball analogy here. What would your role have been? Manager, almost?

Greene: No, I don’t want to go that far. Maybe bullpen coach or something like that. Prepare for something that is about to happen or is expected, or things aren’t going too well, so you’d better get somebody in there to watch the situation. Of course, you had the Whip, and some Whips spent a lot of time on the floor, some did not, and of course at the same time you had, if we were in the majority, the chairman that was managing the bill on the floor, who had sort of the run of things because it was his bill, or if we were in the minority, it was the ranking member on the committee working in concert, hopefully, with the chairman to try to get the bill through. So you had those two. But certain things would come up. It would be more the Leader’s call, and I would let the Leader know, or whichever the case may be, the chairman or the ranking member would say, “You’d better check with Dole and see if this is okay.” But more than likely Dole would just call umpteen times a day. I would run down to the office and he’d call the cloakroom and say, “Is Howard there?” and I’d run down to the office, and he’d want to know what was going on, which saved a lot of time because a lot of times there wasn’t anything going on, but he just wanted to know while he was sitting there doing his paperwork, this, that, and the other. So he’d be working in the office and he always wanted to know what was going on the floor, and he would call me, whether it was something to talk about or sometimes I would go in and he’d be engrossed in something he was doing, and sometimes I’d walk in, sit down, or sometimes I’d stand at the desk for five or ten minutes and he would still be reading or writing, and he wouldn’t look up. I’d get tired of standing. I’d sit down, and sometimes I’d sit there for ten,

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 20 fifteen minutes, and he would come up with, “What about that amendment coming up this afternoon, so forth and so on’s amendment? What about this? What about that?” He’d be engrossed in what he was doing, but in the back of his mind he wanted to know what was going on on the floor, and I was the person to try to give him the best advice as I had as to what was going to happen on the floor. A lot of times I caught myself, Brien, trying to second-guess what was going on on the floor. I guess I was maybe trying too hard or something like that, when I would see things come on the floor, people come on the floor, something I alluded to before. You knew something was up, and especially if they came on the floor when the chairman or the ranking member, or the chairman, whichever the case might have been, as to who was in the majority, was off the floor and it was just a couple of other senators waiting around to give a speech, and here all of a sudden you see these guys come on. I hate to say this, don’t mean to be disrespectful, but you knew there was trouble brewing when they would come on the floor and we had a military bill pending or an appropriation bill dealing with labor, HEW, which has changed its name. You’d see a [Sen. Tom] Harkin or a couple other westerners come on when there was a big agriculture bill. You follow my drift. You knew something was up, and you had to get the chairman and/or, whichever the case may be, ranking Leader on the floor. If they weren’t available, you couldn’t put your hands on them, you had to tell Dole, and then you would follow his directions as to what’s the next step.

Williams: As minority secretary, how large a staff did you have? You mentioned an AA and a secretary.

Greene: The staff was the same [for the minority or the majority—HG]. I had a secretary and an AA in my office up on the third floor, S337. I had four people who answered the phones in the Republican cloakroom. You asked about the minority? I had a deputy secretary for the minority and I had another floor person who worked the floor, [who handled the legislative calendar and—HG] who helped us with getting the little info sheets ready [to vote—HG], which we had down at the desk, where senators could walk in [to vote—HG], in not too detailed language, but enough to give them a drift of what was going on about the amendment they were going to vote on. The rest of that

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 21 information should have come from their staff, staff members from that committee. I had an office downstairs in the Capitol which handled the correspondence that dealt strictly with the floor activity—bills, amendments, speeches, holds on bills. And we would answer letters that would come in, to say, “Don’t let that bill pass unless I’m here and I’ve gone through this and have an amendment for that.” We had to answer those letters. I had two people downstairs that would handle that. And to deviate from—if we were in the majority, that office had one hell of a job, impossible job, again if we were in the majority, of finding someone to preside over the Senate. They constantly changed their mind. They constantly had more important things to do. They had to go somewhere. A big fat cat came in the office. We always were notified five minutes before the senator was supposed to preside over the Senate. They were supposed to preside for one hour, and sometimes they would show, sometimes they wouldn’t. That was a headache.

Williams: If they didn’t show, what happened?

Greene: I would go to the dining room, I would walk the halls, I’d go wherever I could up and down—if someone had been sitting on the floor, wanting to make a speech or to do a little bit of morning business to praise the Lions Club back in their hometown, “Sir, I need you. I need you for one hour.” “I can’t do it. I’ve got to go to committee. Get up there till I can get somebody to fill in [please!—HG].”

Williams: Were there times when all business came to a halt for lack of a president?

Greene: No. We had to beg a lot of times, and I think they realized that if something happened, or that person who was in the chair, Brien, from one to two, and it got to two, two-fifteen, he had something to do because he was scheduled from one to two, and he would be squawking. And you can’t blame him. But sometimes things like that happen, and we just had to deal with it. We just had to deal with it as best we could. But that was a very, very time-consuming, a very difficult thing to schedule, because senators could be senators.

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Williams: Did you prefer being secretary to the majority or secretary to the minority?

Greene: That’s a tough question. I guess I cut my teeth on being secretary for the minority, and it was, again, not to be repetitious, but it’s easier to throw hand grenades than it is to catch them, and that’s what you do in the minority. We were outnumbered considerably as far as the ratios. We had to object to things as best we could. We had to try to defeat cloture to keep from a bill being choked down our throats. We didn’t have any say, although sometimes the Leaders would work together on some things, as to what the schedule was going to be in the Senate. When it came to an important piece of legislation, like an appropriation bill or something, we invariably wanted to get a time limitation on it so it wouldn’t get out of hand, but sometimes we would end up with appropriation bills like defense or defense appropriation or defense authorization bill, with 150 to 250 amendments, or a budget resolution, which thank God we had a boilerplate time limitation on it, and all the time amendments would be offered, [and then voted on en bloc—HG], it would just be a rat race. It was just difficult. It was just difficult to get that going in the minority because we wanted to slow things down. I mean, Bill [William J.] Clinton wasn’t sending bills up that the Republicans wanted to vote for tomorrow afternoon. And vice versa when [George H.W.] Bush and Reagan were in up there. But majority was much more fulfilling because you knew if you had the votes, like we did when Reagan came in in ’81, things started to roll. We could invoke cloture and cut off debate. The people that came in on Reagan’s coattails came in as to be—they were very good team players. We pulled together. Baker, in his few years, and then Dole, before we lost control, could get things done because the senators stuck together. There was party unity. That was a fulfilling time. But as far as it being—it’s just night and day. You play defense [with a Democratic president—HG], you try to stop what was going on because it wasn’t your cup of tea, it wasn’t your legislation, compared to ’81 when Reagan came in, with a master like that in the White House, with his staff, and they send up legislation and we had the numbers, and we had people who were willing to give Ronald Reagan anything he wanted because he was responsible for their being there—the

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[Sen.] Jerry Dentons, the [Sen.] Paula Hawkins, the [Sen.] Matt Mattinglys and dah-dah- dah-dah. Much more fulfilling being in the majority. The days went quicker when you could run the circus than the days when you just had to watch and buy a ticket and stand in line to get on the merry-go-round.

Williams: This is sort of an aside, but how did you learn that you were going to be selected as the sergeant-at-arms? How did that come about?

Greene: Well, Dole had to appoint his people to be secretary of the Senate and sergeant- at-arms, and I had worked the floor for a long time and I was feeling a little burnt out, and I did not know at that point that Dole was going to resign from the Senate in June of ’96. We all knew about the political campaign. I did not want to leave the Senate floor because it had been my whole life, was the Senate floor, and I thought I had the pedigree and personality to deal with people on the Senate floor as best I could in difficult circumstances, whether it be Republicans or Democrats. I didn’t want to be taken away from the Senate floor. At least I didn’t think I did. But Dole asked me one time in his office, in front of the fireplace, he says, “I’ve got these openings. Would you like to be sergeant-at-arms?” I said, “Whoa. I have to kick that around.” He says, “Howard, you know where all the skeletons are in the closets.” “Yes. If I don’t, I know how to find out.” He says, “You know all the Democrats that have been here for years, that have held these positions when we were in the minority. We need to clean house.” I said, “Yes, I do.” Of course, a lot of those people were friends. That didn’t come in the picture then; it couldn’t. I was concerned about the floor and my assistant, Elizabeth [Letchworth]. He said he would move her up. I thought, well, that’s a good move. She was very qualified. I wanted to leave the floor because sergeant-at-arms was much more encompassing, much more responsibility than I had on the floor, and it just got to the point where I just about had my fill of it. The security, the protocol, the meeting of heads of state, the inaugurations, dah-dah-dah-dah, I said, “Yeah, I could do

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 24 that.” So I did, reluctantly [at the time, and later adjusted to it. It was a difficult adjustment—HG]. I didn’t like being sergeant-at-arms, because I lost that contact with the senators, that personal contact. When you walk in in the morning, someone come up and, “Did you see that ball game last night?” you know. “Can you believe that?” So forth and so on. Or, “So forth and so on’s in town in Baltimore. Get a hold of your friend and get some tickets. Let’s go to a baseball game.” Or, “Come here. I want to tell you about my son and his wife, about to have their third baby,” and stuff like that, little things like that. You became a family. I mean, not only just the traveling part that I talked about earlier, but sitting around in the cloakroom. “My kid’s graduating from high school. I’ve got to be there. I don’t care what they’re voting on,” you know, or, “So forth and so on happening in the family.” You were their sounding board. You were someone that they could talk to, that they didn’t have to talk to in the office. There was a lot of personal contact, a lot of friendships that developed, and upstairs I didn’t have it. I just had all these various departments, computer. “www” was just coming to existence, and all of the senators in the offices had a computer guru who graduated from, they all thought, MIT, and they wanted every damn piece of equipment that would come down the pike, and that was really a pain in the butt, because we had a Computer Center over next to Union Station. Every time the phone would ring it would be some senator’s office, “I want a so forth and so on, so forth and so on.” “We don’t have the money for that.” “Well, maybe we’ll try to get an expanded appropriation for next year’s Computer Center.” Or the police department. And I enjoyed that, the security part, because I knew all the guys in the police department. The parking, you know. A senator would say, “My wife always had the opportunity to pull up here and park, and there was a spot, so forth, and she ought to park there, and someone said she couldn’t park there last week.” “Senator, tell her to come over and park in front of the Capitol.” Little things like that. It was sort of what I was used to, but in a much smaller [larger—HG] scale and a much more nagging, irritable type of thing than dealing with a United States senator and

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 25 his interest or disinterest on something on the Senate floor. It was a big, big difference. I’d lost that floor contact and that personal contact.

Williams: Let’s talk about personalities now for a bit. When you first went on the floor, I guess Senator Dirksen was the Minority Leader.

Greene: Right.

Williams: Describe the senator from Illinois.

Greene: [laughs] Oh, wow. I’d heard a lot about Dirksen before I started working on the Senate floor. As a matter of fact, I got the first impression from working, as I said before, as a doorman up in the gallery to seat school groups and just the general public. It seemed like if Dirksen was speaking on the floor, and if you ever heard him speak or a recording of his speeches, it was something to behold. I mean, it wasn’t something from a Hollywood set. It wasn’t something from the best professor at the college that you went to. It was—I can’t really describe it. The tone of his voice, the intellect, the articulate way that he could emphasize this or that, he seemed like he could talk about the weather and he would have you in the palm of his hand. I guess not only the voice, but the delivery, the hesitation, the emphasis he would put on things that would just stick with you. The greatest orator in the years I was in the Senate was Everett McKinley Dirksen, and one heck of a nice man. Here I was cutting my teeth in the Republican cloakroom, and it didn’t take me long to realize how much of a relationship he had with Lyndon [B.] Johnson, who was then president, because they dealt with each other when Johnson was Majority Leader. And umpteen times a day—I might be overly emphasizing that one—a lot of times a day Dirksen would come in the cloakroom and he’d walk up to me or to one of the guys [and asked to speak to the president—HG]. I tried to stay there as much as I could because I figured as much as I spent in that cloakroom, the more I saw, the more I heard, and the more I could accidentally overhear, the more I would learn about the operation. Anyhow, Dirksen would come in, “Howard.” He’d come [closer and ask—HG], “Howard, would you get the president?” He’d get in the phone booth. We had a row of

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 26 phone booths, four and four, and this is the length of the cloakroom and my seat would be here, and this doesn’t do much to this audio. I could almost reach out my hand and touch booth number 8, and Dirksen would get in, he’d talk to the president, he’d never shut the door. “Well, Lyndon, I know. I don’t have the votes. I can’t help it. Lyndon. Yes, Mr. President.” “Lyndon.” They’d go on and on. I thought, I can’t believe I’m hearing this. A young kid from southern Delaware, I’m over here listening to this conversation. Of course, I got to know some people much, much older than I, who worked for Senator Dirksen—Glee Gomien and John Gomien, Oliver J. Dompierre, who handled the legislative business for the floor, and I somehow got into being close to some of those guys, especially Mr. Dompierre. At that point the “Ev and Jerry Show” was going on, if you remember that— [Rep.] Jerry [Gerald R.] Ford and Ev Dirksen. Well, I became sort of Dirksen’s personal page or courier. They would rotate back and forth. They would tape it in the Minority Leader’s office, Dirksen’s office in the Senate, then they’d go over to the House side and do it in Jerry Ford’s office. I don’t mean to be disrespectful by saying Jerry Ford. Congressman Ford and Senator Dirksen, so forth and so on. And I was the one who carried the bags, the information. I’d carry the water bottles and I’d carry the speeches and I’d carry this, that, and the other, over to this back and forth, back and forth. So I got to be in that thick, although here I was just a twenty-five-year-old kid, wet behind the ears, hoping the Senate would get out of session that night in time for me to jump on a bus and go to College Park to take a class. I was going to College Park [University of Maryland night school—HG] to try to finish up on a degree out there, which I never was able to finish. Anyhow, Dirksen would come in the cloakroom and he would sit, and he would treat you like a grandson, just as nice as he could be. “How are we doing today? We shouldn’t be here long today. We have another week and it’s recess. Keep your heads up, boys.” Then he got sick and emphysema set in, and they took him off cigarettes. Heavy smoker. So he came in one day, off [the floor] to the cloakroom, came up to my desk. I was the first person. There were three of us then. He looked at me. “Howard,” he says. He looked at me and says—I’ll never forget. I can hear him like he’s sitting over there right now. He said, “Howard, how are we fixed for cigarettes?”

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I said, “Leader, we don’t have any cigarettes,” knowing in the back of my mind that he’d had problems with emphysema and so forth and so on. I said, “No, sir, we don’t have any cigarettes here. We don’t smoke.” He says, “Could you get me some?” End of story. “Yes, sir.” What do you do? Well, you do what the man said. So I went downstairs and I got a pack of Winston cigarettes. Never forget it. And I had them in my desk drawer. He come back. I knew he wasn’t supposed to have them. He was sneaking cigarettes in the office. He’d come in every once in a while after that. “Howard, how are we fixed for cigarettes?” Well, that meant one thing. I’d open my desk drawer, give him a Winston. He’d take a cigarette, he’d get in one of the phone booths, he’d smoke a cigarette. And I thought to myself, what the hell am I supposed to do? I’ll never forget, I was living out in Springhill Lake, out in New Carrollton, on the ninth day of September, I believe it was, when he died. His relationship with Johnson, the way they handled those civil rights bills together, the way Johnson could count on Dirksen supplying so many votes for this or that, how they would somehow get together over drinks and work things out that John Q. Public and many senators had no idea how it came about. [It would never be the same again! —HG] A lot of times on a Friday—I remember one in particular, I was in the back office. We were out of session. Dirksen was in town. Mr. Dompierre was in there. I was having a beer and they were having their whatevers. So Mr. Dompierre said, “Better hurry up. We’ve got to get out. Company’s coming.” “Okay.” So we had no more than got out of the office and the elevator door opens up and here comes the President of the United States, big Lyndon Johnson. Two clotheslines, one in each hand, with a beagle on this one and a beagle on that one, going down the halls of the Capitol. Mr. Dompierre says, “Let’s go back and see if they get situated okay.” One person left in the office, [Glee] Gomien. Can’t think of her first name. Anyhow, she was left in the office. Johnson walks in. The dogs have a run of the place. Dirksen had a back office where the bar was, very narrow room between the main office and the senator’s office, and they started pouring drinks. Lyndon Johnson, the president—I shouldn’t be saying this—the president came back and the beagles got up on one of the couches in the outer office, fireplace was going, and before I left I heard him

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 28 say to Dirksen, he says, “Glad you’re working tonight, Lyndon (sic) [Ev—HG]. Lady Bird and the girls are out of town, and that’s the loneliest damn place in this city.” And that’s been documented many times, but I saw that one. That’s the relationship that Johnson and Dirksen had.

Williams: Did Dirksen have a temper?

Greene: Well, yes, but it was a temper that never got violent, never got personal, and it was quickly subdued. You could hear him get fired up about something, but in those days you didn’t have the horses to win anything. You had to compromise. And that reminds me of an old Dole slogan: Compromise is not a bad word. Well, that’s all the Republicans could do then, because I think when I started there in 1968, I think the ratio was 63-37. I mean, if you don’t compromise or you don’t play ball with the other guys, you don’t have anything. And that’s why Dirksen was so good, especially during those big bills, the ’60 Civil Rights Act when Thurmond spoke for twenty-four hours, and the ’64 Act, then comes the [Viet Nam] War and, of course, Dirksen died in September of ’69. Then in came Hugh Scott of Pennsylvania, then Baker when Scott retired.

Williams: So what would you have to say about Hugh Scott?

Greene: Much more liberal than Dirksen. Very nice man. Not as visible as Dirksen by a big stretch. Was elected by the moderates and liberals [and some conservatives held their nose—HG], Republicans then, and I’m referring to the—I shouldn’t say this, because I don’t know how they voted. That wasn’t my purview then. But the liberals who were there, like [Sen. Clifford] Cliff Case from Jersey and [Sen.] Jake Javits from New York and [Sen. Edward] Ed Brooke from New Jersey (sic), and dah-dah-dah-dah, but there were some conservatives there who were Dirksen conservatives, the [Sen. Peter] Dominicks, the [Sen. Gordon] Allotts, [Sen.] Thurston Morton, [Sen. Winston] Win Prouty. Margaret Chase Smith was a shaker and a mover then, very, very close to Dirksen, that didn’t quite like the fact, but had to get along because we were in the minority. We had to sink or survive—or “they,” not “we.” They. But I very rarely saw him lose his temper. He was so even-minded, even his voice, his delivery, his speeches,

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 29 and even if something in the cloakroom was going on between various senators, he would come in and get involved in it, and that would be the soothing factor that got those senators to agree to do this, that, or the other. Just his presence, just the power, just the awe of that man, the speaking ability, knowing that if there was something that could be done to help that Republican senator or senators to get a piece of action on a bill that the majority had before the Senate, if anybody could get the White House to help them get whatever they wanted in a bill, it was Dirksen. And he was on that pedestal. Great man, great leader. I just wished I’d been around him a little bit longer than I did, but what time I did have around him I’ll never forget.

Williams: So do you imagine that Scott won the minority position on a close vote, or was he not challenged? Do you recall anything about that?

Greene: I should know that one, Brien, but I wasn’t really involved in it then because I was just one of the peons in the Republican cloakroom. I do believe there was—Scott was the heir apparent, and I’m not sure—something sticks in my mind that someone ran against him and then dropped out on the first ballot or something like that. I don’t think he was unopposed, although when you’re in a minority like that and you have so few seats around like that, the infighting doesn’t get you anywhere. I think it was sort of a locked-in situation. But Scott just was not the—a nice man, very intelligent man, really looked out for the State of Pennsylvania, but he just did not have the charisma, the relationship with the senators that Dirksen had, and therefore he didn’t have the relationship with the White House, nor the relationship that Dirksen had with Senator Mike Mansfield, Majority Leader. It had to be one of the top three that I’ve seen in my time, Mansfield and Dirksen.

Williams: That doesn’t leave many others.

Greene: No. Without a doubt [but later there would be others—HG].

Williams: Do you think that Scott sensed that he was compared poorly with Dirksen, or do you think he just didn’t—

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Greene: That’s a hard one to answer, although at times he would come on the floor—and this is personal opinion and personal opinion only—because I happened to be on the floor watching it, and he would come on the floor and he would attempt—and again I can’t say this—this is not to knock Senator Scott at all, but he would come on the floor and try his damnedest to duplicate—never able to come close—to duplicate a speech like Dirksen might have given. I don’t know whether that answers your question, but that’s the best I can come up with that. So, yes, he knew it was impossible. It was impossible, although he was a very good Leader. He just didn’t have that—the old saying is, that’s a tough act to follow.

Williams: What were his strong points that made him a good Leader?

Greene: He did eventually have a good relationship with Mansfield. He knew how to work the committee and the bills. He had some good people in his office that helped him, good staff members, floor manager in the office that helped him get involved in things. Turnover was starting to happen and the old bulls were starting to leave the Brookes, the Cases, the Mundts had left before, the Proutys, and was starting to turn over into a younger-type Senate. The Bakers were coming in, the [Sen. Bob] Packwoods were coming in, these young guys in ‘69. Dole was coming in in ’69. The personality of the Republican side of the aisle was changing, changing quickly. But it was just a different situation with Scott from Dirksen. Margaret Chase Smith, who was chairman of the Republican Conference and ranking, I believe, on the Armed Service Committee, was much more of an influence on the Senate and on other members. Thurmond became much more of an influence. Senators like Tower and Gordon Allott and Pete Dominick and other people like that sort of picked up. Not that they were opposed to Scott, but they were able to help him work with others to get things done as what little we could offer to Mansfield as Majority Leader, instead of being just a constant thorn in the ass.

Williams: It sounds a little bit like under Scott it was more a Republican team effort, but would that also mean that under Dirksen it was more hierarchy or not?

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Greene: Yes. Very well put. Yes. It was. [But team effort by both. —HG] Dirksen knew he could go to the White House and go to Mansfield and he could go to some friends on the other side of the aisle, the Stennises, the [James O.] Eastlands, the Dick [Richard] Russells. I think Dick was still—I’m in a habit of using these first names when I shouldn’t. I never did for thirty years. Senator Russell. He could go to those guys. They were the old bulls. To some of them, Republican-Democrat didn’t make any difference. Conservative-liberal did. North and South did. It was much easier to get things done. Now, when Mansfield needed a party-line vote, he got it. When there was a way for flexibility, consensus, he got it; he would work with our people. [But to answer your question, Sen. Dirksen and Scott had to lead with a team effort. Sen. Dirksen was much better as a leader. —HG]

Williams: I think Howard Baker’s ready to enter the stage, but let’s take a pause here for a moment.

Greene: Okay.

[tape recorder turned off]

Williams: Okay. What about Howard Baker?

Greene: That was an interesting election when Scott retired and Baker ran. A number of people were involved in running for the Majority Leader’s job. I think [Sen. James] McClure and Baker and a few other people were in it. But I think a lot of people realized that Baker’s style was easygoing [and with class—HG]. There was no temperament, there was no argument. It sort of reverted back to his father-in-law as to how he was going to run the Senate, and that was long before we envisioned lightning striking twice in November of 1980 when Reagan took over. Easygoing to a degree, good old guy from the hills of Tennessee, very, very well liked, very well respected, very intelligent, very articulate, hard working.

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His leadership—and I had the same guy as I alluded to before—his job as Leader was primarily—and I hope I’m not misreading this, but this is my gut, for what it’s worth—was to listen to and to follow to a degree the people he had around him. [He started out and remained similar to that of Sen. Dirksen. He had patience and would listen to others. —HG] Baker had a lot of people in his office, some who came from the White House, one who worked for Scott, some intelligent lawyers, and he really relied on their suggestions. Baker was easygoing, like I said, and he could get anything done, especially in the majority because it was a new thing. We were new kids on the block. “Wow. This is how it’s going to be. Is this what it was like with those guys back in 1954 and the last time we were in the majority? Good God, we never dreamed we would be chairman of a committee. Hell, yeah, whatever you want. Run the bill through here and we’ll get it out and we’ll get it on the floor. We’ve got enough votes to pass it.” I mean, it was a completely different atmosphere. So therefore, an atmosphere like that compared to all the years we were in the minority, the Leader had to have a nice go at it. I mean, what was the obstacle? I mean, we had to gather a few votes once in a while that we needed to get cloture, to cut off debate on a bill that we wanted and that Reagan wanted, but the tremendous budget fights that we had, and the Democrats tried to mostly offer amendments to add on money to the budget bills and to appropriation bills that made Republicans vote against it, well, that’s the name of the game. That way you can run against it and we could fight them down. We could beat them. Baker, shortly into his leadership, got involved in taking the Panama Canal away, giving the Panama Canal away, whichever is the best word. That sort of split the ranks a little bit. There were people—Dole and others—who were opposed to that. Well, Baker got involved in—again, suggestions from people in his office as well as working closely with Frank B____ and [Hamilton] Jordan in [Jimmy] Carter’s White House then, and this was in the—I’m sorry, I got ahead of myself. This was back before we took over control. He got through that. Maxwell [correction: Sen. Laxalt —HG] opposed him on the floor. I got ahead of myself. This happened before—this was back in the Carter administration. But that’s when he became Leader. That’s going to confuse things. But he came out of that very well to lead into what I had just said about how things had changed and how it was almost Christmas every day when we were in the majority. But he sort of did leave a pedigree—not a pedigree. He sort of did leave a taste in people’s mouth that he was a

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 33 little bit more of a moderate conservative; i.e., giving the Panama Canal back to Panama, until Bob Dole got up and offered an amendment that sort of let the pressure off by saying, yes, we give it back to Panama, but U.S. warships have access to that canal above everything and everybody else. Now, since then, that canal’s been [somewhat] taken over by Chinese and Japanese interests, and God knows there’s been peace there so far, no problems whatsoever, but that was quite a challenge for Baker to take on when he first became Leader. But the way he handled it, without a bunch of animosity in the Senate, it did lead him into the job again after Reagan took over and we became majority on January 3, 1981. He sort of cut his teeth on that Panama Canal and had not ruffled too many feathers and made it easier for him, on top of being in the majority for the first time since creation, and that really gave him an easy way, and I was surprised to see him leave after four years. I really was.

Williams: The power of the president, I guess.

Greene: That was it. That was it. That was it. He really thought he had a chance and everybody else did too. I don’t know. This is not for me to speculate. Hell, what do I know about that? But maybe the timing wasn’t right or maybe he was just—but he gave it all for a while and it just didn’t happen. It didn’t happen for Bob Dole in ’80 and ’88.

Williams: I was referring to the fact that Reagan asked him to come over and be chief of staff at the White House.

Greene: Yes, yes.

Williams: And Baker probably would have had a hard time saying no to the president.

Greene: Oh sure, sure. You’re right about that, of course.

Williams: So now we’re up to Dole, and I want to backtrack a little bit here. Do you recall your first becoming aware of Bob Dole?

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Greene: Working in the cloakroom, answering telephones, again. I don’t think I’d ever heard the man’s name mentioned when he was over on the House side, but I remember when he came in. I remember, like I said, Frank Carlson and Jim Pearson were the senators from Kansas, and all of a sudden Carlson was retiring and in came Bob Dole. I can see him sitting down at the end of the cloakroom shortly after he gave the oath of office, and he wanted to sit there and take as much in and make new friends as quickly as possible. I could just tell from his body language and the expressions on his face, his enthusiasm, that he wanted to quickly put aside the fact that he was a former House member and now he was a United States senator. I’ve always thought of the House of Representatives as the Senate’s Triple-A ball club, the bull leagues to get people ready for the Senate. Back then, in the early sixties, you didn’t have the people leaving the House and coming to the Senate as much as you do now. The Senate now—not to deviate—the Senate now has become, in my opinion, too much House-oriented. I think that’s got a lot to do with the bipartisanship, or lack thereof. It lasts but it doesn’t last long. Those guys’ mentality—and I want to get back to Dole—their mentality was they had to run constantly, every two years. Everybody knows a senator runs every six years. Well, they had that little hiatus where they could tend to the people’s business. The House members, with that ingrained, when they came into the Senate, they were constantly doing this and doing that, involved in this, involved in that. When you come from 435 to 100, the more you get yourself involved when you’re in the Senate, coming from the House, the more toes you’re going to eventually step on. You’ll get lucky and you’re going to make friends here, but the more you’re involved, if you’re in that every-two-year mentality, before you’re there for—I always said you weren’t a senator—a senator didn’t start getting seniority till he was there for his second term. First term, in my opinion, was just touch and feel. I think that had a lot to do with it.

Williams: Let me just interrupt here just for a second.

[brief interruption]

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Greene: So to get back to where we were, Brien, and I jumped off a little bit, Dole would sit in the cloakroom and take in as much as he could, making friends, talking about this and that and the other, and he would sort of pay attention a little bit that I caught of what was being said down at my desk, where the three of us were trying to answer questions. Of course, we were told never to give out information which wasn’t accurate, but when senators’ offices would press you into something, you had to give them an answer. You couldn’t say, “I don’t know.” So we did the best we could, and sometimes we didn’t give an accurate answer or a full answer. I can remember Dole looking down, with that look he’d get on his face, which I’ve seen a million times, and sort of cock that one eyebrow and sort of shake his head and give that little left-hand wave-off, as if to say, “I don’t think they know what they’re talking about.” So I said, “Ah-oh, we’d better watch this one. He’s coming hell-bent for leather.” But I think he sort of took the old standing rule that Senator Richard Russell from Georgia used to have, which was when you’re elected to the Senate, that you get to the Senate and you can throw the rulebook out of the window, you can read it till you’re blue in the face, you’re not going to understand it. The only way you can understand the Senate rules is to sit on the floor, to watch, to listen, to ask questions, to hear those terms in the rulebook used by a presiding officer and by the senators on the floor asking this, that, or the other, to constantly be on the floor as much as you can and watch the Senate proceedings. That’s how you learn the Senate rules. And as Richard Russell used to say, and then maybe in your second year in the Senate you can think about giving your maiden speech. And that was the gospel for years around there. I think Dole took that to heart to a degree. The latter part, nuh-uh, as far as waiting on the speech, because when Dole got there, the first thing he lit into was supporting his friend in the White House, supporting the president day in and day out— [Richard M.] Nixon—and the war amendments, Vietnam. Kennedy, [Sen. Ernest] Hollings coming on the floor and saying, “Nixon is extending this war for his own personal use,” which Dole would tear them apart as best he could. We had a standing order in the cloakroom that whenever someone come on the floor, whoever it was, to criticize Nixon or to take up—was this part of Watergate? Yes, it was. To take on Nixon about the War, which was not a Republican war—that’s debatable. But we had a standing order to get on the telephone and call Jo-Anne Coe in Dole’s office, or Betty

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Meyer in Dole’s office and to tell him whatever he’s doing, they’re on the floor and so forth and so on, and here would come Dole and he would take up for Nixon in the White House, religiously. He would do it six or eight times a day, and he would leave whatever he did, whenever somebody would come over and start one of these wild accusations, like a Kennedy or a whoever, and he would leave committee meetings. He would make speeches on the floor in the morning, call special orders, when they could reserve ten or fifteen minutes to speak on whatever they want to, and he would try to clarify something or diffuse something that was said the day before. He was just dedicated to taking on those Democrats in Nixon’s cause. Of course, then Watergate came in ’72, second term. I’ll never forget another thing—I’m going to deviate a little bit now—the first job I think that Nixon ever gave Dole, made him Republican national chairman, I think it was ’70 or ’71. Again, like I said before, I’m terrible on these dates. We can do something about that later. He was chairman for about a year and a half, and I remember this one time in the cloakroom we were sitting, talking about something, and somebody brought up Camp David. So [someone said—HG] I said, “Bob, how many times you been to Camp David?” Dole says, “Once.” “Oh, just once?” Dole says, “Yep. I was chairman of the Republican National Committee and I got a call from the White House, a helicopter was ready at the White House to take me to Camp David.” Dole says, “I thought, hmm, here’s my first trip to Camp David. Little did I know that Nixon had me flown to Camp David to fire me as chairman of the Republican National Committee. It was my one and only time to Camp David.” [laughs] He loves to tell that story. But to get back to what we were talking about, was how he really became, contrary to the old saying is don’t say anything for your first year or two, he really became a fixture on that floor in supporting Nixon and supporting [Spiro] Agnew in ’70 and ’71, even though the wheels were coming off the wagon, or starting to come off the wagon then. But he dedicated himself to coming to that floor to support Nixon in that war amendment, when those guys would just continue to take him on and saying it was a Republican war, he was using it for his own personal accomplishments, and just some

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 37 weird, weird accusations. That’s really where he started to make a name for himself [especially during Watergate! —HG].

Williams: Did this cause resentment among any of his Republican colleagues, did you pick up?

Greene: No. If it did, it didn’t show. If it did, it didn’t show, because you had other people who would help, too. John Tower and some other senators that don’t come to mind right away, who would join in, but Dole was the leader. Dole was the leader.

Williams: We’re talking now about his first term. In fact, the first part of his first term in the Senate. Was this stepping forward quite exceptional?

Greene: Yes and no. It all depended on the personality. Some people would come in there and they would do the same thing to a degree like Dole did. Some would be a little bit more reserved. But when you saw someone come in with the determination of wanting to sit and listen and talk in that cloakroom, you knew what was next. You knew the next thing was he was going to take to that floor, and when he did, his committee assignments, I think his first committees were—he got Finance Committee, I think, off the bat, and obviously Agricultural Committee, which he had to have, and I think I’m right there. That wasn’t a bad stepping stone for a new guy coming over from the House. I don’t think he had another leadership position from then on. I know he didn’t, except for chairman of Finance Committee, until he became Leader in ’84. But some would come in and do that, not a lot, Brien, not a lot, but Dole was one that really jumped into it head first because of that support [his support for the White House under Pres. Nixon— HG].

Williams: So you and your colleagues on the staff saw a winner when you saw one.

Greene: Oh yes. Yes.

Williams: That was apparent from the beginning?

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Greene: Yes. I always thought to myself, when I first saw him—of course, we all had a little bit of rub-in because he wanted to make people realize that he was a senator. And I remember one time we were working on a Saturday. We had the cloakroom open on a Saturday morning from nine to twelve. It was funny, when I think back, and I did when George W. Bush was elected President of the United States in 2000, that the cloakroom was primarily open—and I’m deviating again—the cloakroom was primarily open on a Saturday morning so former senators who still lived in town or would come back and visit town, they always stayed across the street next to the Supreme Court building in the old Methodist Building, if you know where it is. One of the gentlemen who used to come over, and I used to work on a lot of Saturday mornings because the other two guys in the office would go to school on Saturday, and in would come the Karl Mundts, [Sen.] John Bricker and a gentleman by the name of [Sen.] Prescott Bush, and they would come in and sit and read the paper, and they’d go downstairs and have breakfast. The dining room was open from nine to twelve. Or they would have coffee set up in the cloakroom. I knew Prescott Bush was a member, and that’s all I knew. I didn’t know anything about his family. But then I could see him coming in with those tweed coats, his Ivy League wristband, constantly walking with his hand in his two coat pockets, not in his pants pockets like normal people do, and I thought to myself, hmm, this is a pretty good guy. He was very friendly, very senatorial-looking, his hair, stature, tall, but very friendly with us. “How you doin’? What do you have planned for the weekend?” Just a hell of a nice guy, Senator Bush, okay. And then all of a sudden I guess he went back up to wherever they lived then, Kennebunkport or wherever, and all of a sudden here came this person on this picture— deviating again—working through the House, trying to get elected to the House, named George Herbert Walker Bush. I said, oh yeah, his father. So to make a long story short on that, before we get back to where you were, I got to know George Bush quite a bit, quite well, when he became vice president, because he was president of the Senate. I was secretary for the majority. He would come up a lot of times on Tuesdays to go to Republican policy luncheon, and always wanted to meet with me first in the little vice president’s office back behind the chamber, to talk about whatever was going on. I’d always meet him at the door. I’d get invited to the White House for this, that, and the

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 39 other, or go down with Dole. Went to Kentucky Derby with him. Met him on a trip [in Bermuda—HG]. We were coming back from overseas when they were coming back from burying—not Brezhnev, but the one that died there, was in office maybe three or four months, president of Russia. I can’t think of his name. Yevchenko or something like that. Come back from his funeral. Or Bermuda. Played golf with him in Bermuda. Got pretty close. I said, oh, okay. I mentioned to him about his father. To make a long story short and to stop this flying off on something else, here [I am in 2000 and here—HG] comes George W. Bush, and I thought, now, Greene. You’ve been in town long enough when you’ve got George W. Bush elected President of the United States, you’re good friends with [former President] George Herbert Walker Bush, down in the White House, the picture I’m talking about, flying to the Derby, going to Bermuda to play golf, and sat there and catered to their father, the President of the United States’ grandfather, in the cloakroom. I said to myself, it’s a good thing I retired when I did, because I’ve been around too damn long, with three generations like that. But I got away from something. What was it, Brien?

Williams: I have one question for you. This is another deviation. You mentioned the old Methodist Building. Was that a hotel?

Greene: No, I think it was originally a soldiers’ home. Don’t hold me to that. I think the Methodist Church bought it, and it was a place where senators would come in town and stay when they were first elected, senators-elect, if I’m correct, until they got a permanent residence or they knew that the rest of the family was going to join them. I think it was bought by and refurbished by the Methodist Church, I think. But it’s right there on the corner as you cross from the Dirksen and Russell Building.

Williams: This matter of former senators coming to the cloakroom on Saturdays, they were more welcome on Saturdays, probably, than during the week because being in the way or—

Greene: I just think they felt, yes, I think they felt better coming in and using the restaurant, which was kept open for their purposes and other senators’ purposes, and

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 40 sitting in the cloakroom and reading the papers, because the papers were delivered out back seven days a week in the Senate lobby from every newspaper in the country. If you’re a senator, you wanted that paper that came in so you could get the local newspaper two days old, sit in the cloakroom, and we had a problem getting them out at twelve o’clock, but I think they thought they had the run of the place. It wasn’t open, there were no other senators around, and they could sit there in their old hideout and reminisce and talk and relax, sort of a break. Yes, it was used quite often. Quite often. [And I listened! —HG]

Williams: This was the sixth day of the week for you.

Greene: Oh yes, which was not unusual. It became more important when we started working fifteen, sixteen, eighteen hours a day back during the Dirksen, Scott, and maybe up to the end of the Baker leadership, they’d really start working the possible Saturdays, some Sundays, and working twelve to fourteen to sixteen hours a day. Then when Dole came in, it was standard operating procedure. He worked and worked, and he had no place to go, and he stayed in that office, but let’s not get there yet.

Williams: Well, we’re almost there, aren’t we?

Greene: Okay.

Williams: I think we pretty much finished up with Baker.

Greene: Let me add one other thing about Dole. I think the fact that he came in and quickly supported the president, the fact he was on the Finance Committee and was close friends with [Sen.] Russell [B.] Long, he could get things done right away, who had a relationship at that point with [Rep. Dan] Rostenkowski on the House side, if I’ve got my years right, and I think I do, that things started percolating through that committee pretty quickly because of the relationship between Dole and Russell Long, and the longer they worked on that committee the better it got. I mean, they were very close and could work well together. Russell Long had that Finance Committee wrapped up in the palm of his

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 41 hand, and Dole came in with some other senators who came in with the Reagan landslide that Dole could manipulate, and that’s not a good word to use, but Dole could follow him because of the fact that they knew where they came from. He really started to raise eyebrows especially during the big tax bills that came through, and of course there was all the spend-and-tax. “Dole never saw a tax he didn’t like,” all that stuff. But I think he came out of that quite well, and I think he owes a lot of that not only to his expertise and the good staff he had, but also to the relationship with Russell Long.

Williams: And of course Dole was the Minority Leader for so many years and then for a certain period Majority Leader. So what was it like being around the guy?

Greene: Being around Dole? It was fun. You always were aware of the fact that sooner or later something serious or something would happen that would cause a mood switch. He always had that wit, and he could always use it at a time that would sort of break the ice and break the pressure that was surrounding a situation. I got along with him very, very, very well, and we spent a lot of time together because it was my job to keep him abreast of what was going on. He was a very thorough, dedicated, a very intelligent man. Of all those people I’ve seen operate in the United States Senate in all the years I was there, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone come as close to Bob Dole as being someone who could foresee something happening down the road and prepare for it, that knew how to take a senator’s temperature in a little conversation, over a bowl of soup in the dining room, over a phone call, to see exactly how far or what he could put together legislatively or amendment-wise with that senator. Dole was the kind of person who would not walk up to a senator and say, “I need your support on this, and here’s what I think you ought to do. I’ll get my people to get you a fact sheet as to how it’s going to help your state.” That was not his style. He took a little more easier approach. He did not play all of his cards in the beginning. He would put out some feelers and he would let other people know. He would try to bring some support in from the side. He could manipulate people, in the best case of the word, as far as moving the legislative program better than anyone that I have ever witnessed up there [post Dirksen—HG], and that includes the people like Stennis, “Scoop” [Sen. Henry M.] Jackson, [Sen.] Sam Nunn, Mansfield. I said mostly Democrats then. Tower and Packwood. He just had that knack. He knew

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 42 how far to go with getting someone to come on board with him, and he knew when to cut off and when to pursue it again another time or another day. Very, very intelligent man, unbelievably intelligent. He would sit in his office after the Senate was over, used to drive us crazy, because if Dole was in the office, we couldn’t go home. If it was ten-thirty, eleven, eleven-thirty at night, it didn’t make a damn bit of difference. If the Senate had been out of session at nine and it was still eleven, we still sat there, because he was still in his office going over what happened that day and what he could foresee as happening the next few days, always looking ahead, always thinking ahead. Then we were scared—someone would go because something would pop into his head, and he wasn’t a note-taker. Well, for the obvious reason. He wasn’t a note-taker, but if something came to his mind and he didn’t want that to slip his mind overnight, he would call someone in from the office. It had to be someone that had something to do with the floor or a vote count that I was doing for him, I was the man. If it had something to do with finance, it was Rod [Roderick] DeArment, his chief of staff. If it had something to do with foreign relations, it was Al Lehn or somebody like that. Something to do with setting up a dinner or something, it was Jo-Anne or Joyce McCluney. That would happen an hour or two after the session was over with, but during that time, Brien, he would plan the next day, who to approach, how to approach them, when that amendment should come up. “Let’s wait. Let’s see what happens to this amendment. Do we want to offer this amendment in that form?” A master at legislation. A master at moving that Senate. And when he saw that it wasn’t going to happen, there would be no movement that night, whether it was ten or eleven o’clock, we would sit there for an hour or two with the Senate in session, with all those support people, pages, policemen, and doormen and restaurant workers, we would sit there until he would think things out, because if something came up that he could try to change or to modify prior to the next day, it would expedite the next day’s proceedings, he would do it. But sitting there at night after the Senate was out of session, he would go over in his mind, and people would leave him alone. Every once in a while he’d call you in, but you knew he would sit there and he’d go over in his mind everything that happened that day, and especially the personal contacts, who he talked to, how that conversation went.

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The next morning I would come in, and usually [he would arrive—HG] before I got there, because I lived sixteen miles away, he lived in the Watergate and he used to never like the idea that somebody might be a little bit late for work, of course. He never had to worry about rush hour; there wasn’t one for him. Anyhow, he would come in and he’d have those ideas that he’d thought about the night before, and he’d say, first thing in the morning, we hadn’t even gone into session yet, “Howard,” just two of us, “get so forth and so on on the phone. Get Strom. Get Thad.” Get somebody else. And that’s when he’d fire that shot that came up the night before or that morning, about how we could do something to expedite this or expedite that.

Williams: These nighttime sessions you describe, mainly he was sitting alone in his office?

Greene: A lot of times in his office alone, yes. Sometimes it would last twenty minutes, thirty minutes, forty minutes. Sometimes it would last over an hour or so.

Williams: Did any of you who were all waiting around, beholden to him, resent it?

Greene: No, but, you know, we had lives too. This is going to sound like sour grapes. We had lives too, and some people had families, and we had to do the things that some senators—and I’m not referring directly to Dole, but some senators had people that would go pick up their laundry, and do this, and get their car fixed, and do that. We didn’t have much time for that, especially when the phone would ring on Saturday. Some of the toughest times would be when a senator would pass away and I’d have to contact every senator and we put that together. That was an awful lot of work, and then fly somewhere to bury them. But, no, mostly we resented it to a degree, but we resented it to the point where you’d bite your lip and let it go, because you knew that was his lifestyle. That was his work style.

Williams: And this was while he was Minority Leader as well as Majority Leader, would that be correct?

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Greene: Mostly Majority Leader, mostly, but not altogether, because at that point he was answering to [working with—HG] the White House. It’s much different than answering to the minority. Of course, then he was dealing with Agricultural Committee, a huge farm bill when it came through, the appropriations bills that we had, the big budget fights that we had when we would line up forty or fifty consecutive votes in a row because the amendments were all debated and then set aside until the end, and that was just a terrible way to legislate, but it was the mandate. Then the various other things that he had to deal with, which brought personalities into effect. The line-item veto which he was for, which rubbed [Sen.] Bob Byrd the wrong way, and here he was and Byrd was [Minority] Leader and he was [Majority] Leader, and Byrd didn’t think the line-item veto was constitutional, and Dole and much of our people wanted to reduce spending and the deficit, and Byrd would pull his little Constitution out of his pocket and lecture for forty- five minutes to an hour, and eyes would roll every direction you possibly could think of. It was a tough situation, but he would always prepare himself that night or that next day. He knew what he wanted to do, and he knew how to go about it.

Williams: What about some anecdotes that you have stored away about Dole?

Greene: I don’t know where to start. I guess a lot of them are how he could—alluding to what we just were talking about, I guess a lot of things that would really sort of put a new breath of air in the atmosphere is how after a tense, tough day on the floor, either just before we would go out of session or just after we’d get out of session, he’d come up with something and say something like, “Well, maybe we won’t work this Saturday,” like that was a consolation prize, getting a Saturday off. “Don’t have such bad looks on your faces. You’re still getting paid, aren’t you?” Little things like that would sort of diffuse it a little bit. Or the next week he would find something, somebody would come in the office, a movie star, a baseball player, [Hank] Aaron, Charlton Heston, Bob Hope—I could go on and on—and he’d invite everybody down, and that was his thank you. Or sometimes we’d start to talk about a trip we were going to put together, or sometimes he’d been down in the inner sanctum, they called it, which was the senators’ private dining room downstairs, across the hall from the private dining room, and he’d invite me down. “Come on down.” Of course, [only—HG] the senators sitting there. Staff

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 45 members not allowed. Just to talk about something. More likely somebody he was sitting with was saying something he didn’t want to hear. But just the little things. He would turn around and make you feel like what we were doing was worthwhile and that he cared, but he had a peculiar way of saying it, but once he did it, you knew, after you thought it through, that that was his thank you, that was his sincere thought that we done good. That’s a little difficult to sort of put your hand on, because Dole was not the back-slapping “Thank you very much” type person. Never has been. Just not his makeup. I think a lot of that comes from the terrible situation he had back home in the Dust Bowl and in the War. I think a lot of that has a lot to do with it, because he really didn’t think—I don’t know whether this fits in with what we’re saying. Things would happen to people or things would happen [in general—HG], and he would sort of look at them and he would give you the impression that, “Yeah, that’s too bad, but so what?” And that’s my language, “So what?” not his, but he would feel like, “I’ve been there. I went through that.” I should expound on that a lot more than what I did, but I think you catch my drift. He felt that toward a lot of things, and I think that’s why he was sometimes a little—I don’t want to use this word, but the best I can come up with now, a little aloof about personal feelings and personal interactions with people.

Williams: Were there times that you recall where he was really down?

Greene: Yes. Yes. We had the obvious things when things weren’t going good with his brothers and sisters [health problems—HG] and stuff like that. He took that hard. And to touch on briefly how every time the anniversary would come around of his [war] injury or his time in bed, some organization would send a video or something like that, and it would break him up. I always thought that was not as much pity as it was, “God, if that hadn’t happened, I’d have had those thirty-six or thirty-eight months to do so much more than I’d done already.” That’s nothing but my gut feeling. But he really took that hard. [Who wouldn’t! —HG] When he got into legislative stuff, he really didn’t like the skirmishes that he had with Byrd, although Byrd was a very hardnosed disciplinarian, to say the least, when he

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 46 was Leader. I mean, you had to do it his way or no way, and Bob Dole is not the kind of person that could sit and take that, but you had to. Then there were things like the Tower nomination, which President Bush sent down in ’91, I think it was, something like that. Dole put everything he had into that one, because, after all, that was a member of the family, and all kinds of accusations came up. John Tower was one of my best friends in the Senate. We kidded, we did this, we argued about sports. John Tower and a general [the senator—HG] from Arizona [Sen. Barry Goldwater—HG] were like tooth and nail. They were together all the time and they were ornery as hell, and they would pick on each other. I would get wrapped up in the middle [and I would love it! —HG]. Tower’s nomination came down and things started to unravel. Dole put everything he had into it, as did Bush, and it started to look worse and worse, and it was really pulling Dole down, because not only it was a friend, a member of the family that was hitting a rocky road, but Dole wasn’t able to control a Bush nominee like he thought he could. Now, I don’t even want to think about whether Dole wanted to show Bush, after what happened in the primary season, “Yeah, you send it here and I can do it for you.” I don’t think that’s necessary to get into. But when the wheels started coming off the Tower wagon, I got involved in it, because Dole knew that Tower and I were close. We had the same—in my office upstairs on the corner overlooking the Mall, in 337, right next to my office was Johnny Tower’s office. Of course, he had a lot of people up there when he was Chairman of the Armed Services Committee, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and we played tricks on each other. I’d have ice in my office that he could use if he needed to, and my secretary would—he would do things for him, hold a key or something like that. We were very close like that. I remember the constant conversations that Dole would have in the cloakroom with Bush [on the phone—HG], outwardly in the cloakroom. We had two desks in the cloakroom other than the desks where people sat to answer the telephones. One was the desk where I would sit, the other desk where some senator could sit and sign mail [or use the phone in calls to and from the president—HG]. I remember when I was over at the White House one time with Baker, Ron McMahon, who used to work for Baker, Fred McClure, who was on Bush’s staff, and somebody else, and the president walked in. “What are you guys doing here?”

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I said, “We came up [down—HG] to eat in the Senate [White House—HG] Dining Room, came down here to taste all this military food.” He got a kick out of that. So we walked out, and Baker says, “Greene, what do you think about the vote coming up?” I said, “I don’t like it. I don’t like the damn place I’m working in, and I think they’re going to hang old John Tower.” “No, we’ll get him through.” I said, “It’s going to be 52-48. He’s not going to make it.” “Ah, Greene, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.” I said, “Okay.” So we go back, and this came up and that came up. Nunn was doing everything he could on the damn committee to defeat him. [Sen.] John Warner was playing kiss-ass with Sam Nunn, waiting for Nunn to make a move or to release him, to do what he wanted to. [Sen. Nancy L.] Kassebaum had the obvious problem, because all the women’s rights in the country that were against Tower. She was in a bad predicament. I don’t remember whether she announced early. I think she did, before the vote, but she was the only Republican that voted against Tower. I think I’m right there. The vote ended up 53-47. The day before the vote, I was sitting in the cloakroom at one of the desks, and one of the kids ran out on the floor and got Dole, said, “The White House is calling.” You can always tells it’s the White House because they say, “This is the White House calling.” “Well, who’s calling?” “This is the White House.” Well, automatically that was the president. Dole got on the phone. He knew I was listening to him; I was staring right at him. He said, “We tried this one, we tried that, and the Democrats are in lockstep. And Nunn…I don’t know what Warner’s going to do. It sounds like Warner may follow so forth and so on. I tried to talk to Nancy, and I don’t know this or that.” Then finally he hung the phone up and he took two steps toward me to go out on the Senate floor, and he just stopped and stared ahead. He looked at me and he says, “It’s over.” And without even thinking, the words just came out of my mouth, I just said, “I’ll be a son of a bitch.” That was tough. Talk about eating your own. For a bunch of

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 48 special interest groups that just got hold of it, behind the Democrats, who were hoping to get into the White House, to gang together and just completely destroy a good guy like that. Not saying there wasn’t something to what the charges were, but to the degree to which they charged him still was in question and always will be. The news media just ate him alive [the bastards! —HG]. Dole really put a lot into that, as he did in the big tax bill. Oh my god, we spent so many nights on the floor with that, with he and Russell Long on the tax bill. Of course, there’s nothing more complicated on the floor than a tax bill, and you try to offer an amendment that was drafted by a member of the committee and expect the members of the Senate to understand what they’re talking about when they’re not on the committee, then you have to revert back to whoever you happened to pick up for a short term as an expert on tax law, as a staff person, and it’s just a very nerve-wracking, tense time. Half the time the guys didn’t know what they were voting for and they voted because Dole was for it and Long was for it, or Long was against it. I’ve never seen him work that hard. Of course, he was a hard worker, morning, noon, and night, but it would look like we were getting near the end on something and I would say, “Let’s keep pushing.” “Oh, we’re pushing.” [We would be in session six days a week, for weeks, 12-14 hours a day. It was rough. —HG] It’d be ten, eleven o’clock next morning. This went on for five or six days and I’d go to him. I said, “Leader,” coming in at eight, eight-thirty in the morning, so by the time you got home and takes me forty-five minutes to get home, by the time you get home and you wind down enough to get to bed, get four hours’ sleep and you jump up and you’re up again, you almost meet yourself on the G.W. Parkway coming back and forth. I said, “Leader, you’ve got to let up a little bit. I’ve got some tired people. These pages haven’t been to school because if the Senate isn’t out at a certain hour, there’s no page school. These kids in the cloakroom, one in there going to law school, the other’s got a wife that’s pregnant.” I said, “We’ve got to slack up a little bit.” So next morning we came in at ten o’clock, and that was just Dole being Dole. He listened, but he knew that in order to get things done, we had to go on. He liked to constantly threaten [scheduled—HG] recesses. He’d always say, just before we got to a

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 49 big holiday recess or something like that, “Boys, don’t spend too much money on your airline tickets. If they’ve got anything that’s refundable, you’d better get it.” And rarely did it happen, but it worked, because we would say, “Okay, it’s Tuesday. We’ve got 110 amendments to go, and some had better not be offered or some better be refined to be accepted, because we’re not leaving here this week, whether we work Friday night or Saturday in the recess to get it done.” And Dole would stick to it, eleven, eleven-thirty, twelve o’clock at night, one o’clock in the morning, and we’d get it done.

Williams: I asked you about low moments. When did you see the senator really elated?

Greene: There’s one other thing, if I could just keep that one thought. There’s one other thing I should bring up. There was a highway bill veto when Reagan was president, and I did a head count and we had some people who were opposed to the president on the veto, and there were people who were always with us, like [Sen.] Steven Symms, [but he was a “no”—HG] because [of the speed limit—HG] amendment—I’m going back a long time and I might be a little off. The westerners were going back because they didn’t want to limit the speed limit on some of the roads out there. Some of the roads out west don’t have a speed limit, and they wanted to limit it to 65 or something like that. They were opposed to that. Some of them were opposed to double-trailer effect. Some of them were opposed to, even back then, Mexican trucks coming in and out and ruin the highways. Anyhow, to make a long story short, we were about three or four votes short of sustaining the veto, and Dole calls me in the office, ten, eleven o’clock in the morning, and he says, “Get your people ready. The president’s coming up. Don’t say anything.” I said, “What do you want to do?” He says, “We’re going to use the old Senate chamber across the hall.” So I didn’t call anybody, and next thing I know, here comes the President of the United States, all his security and stuff like that. Baker was chief of staff. We went in the Senate chamber, and Dole started talking about the veto thing. There was a camera crew that White House communications had brought in to film and audio, the whole thing, and I walked over to them. The pressure, you could cut it with a knife, because these guys, they couldn’t budge because they were up for reelection, the westerners, and

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 50 it impacted a lot of the western states. A lot of the eastern states got so much money for highway bills. It was just sort of a mismatch. There was no real solution to it. So Reagan got up and there’s this camera crew in there, all dressed up in their red sports coats on and their striped tie, and I said, “Who are you guys with?” “We’re White House communications. We’re filming this.” I said, “No, you’re not. You’re in the Senate chamber. We don’t allow photographs in here unless it’s agreed to by the Majority and Minority Leader.” This guy, young kid, twenties, he says, “We’re with White House communications. We travel with the president.” I said, “Listen, young man. I don’t care who you’re with. I’m the secretary of the majority, and if I need to go get my Leader, I’ll do it.” About that time Howard Baker walked over, the chief of staff. “What’s wrong, Greene?” I said, “Just these guys with you. Senator, I think this meeting is going to be a little bit more tense and heated than we think it is. We don’t do this to ourselves up here. Why should we do it and embarrass someone here?” Baker turned to the two staff guys. He says, “You’re on Greene’s turf now. We’re not in the White House. Out.” Then the meeting started, and there was a lot of give-and-take, and Dole made a hell of a statement to try to support the president, but [Sen. Alfonse] D’Amato and Symms and [Sen.] Slade Gordon [and others—HG], the westerners who had this hang- up, were just enough to tilt it against us, and that’s when the president got up and said, “I beg you.” Those words came out of his mouth. “I beg you to support me on this veto.” And he got beat. They couldn’t swing the votes. Dole couldn’t swing them. The president couldn’t swing them. “I beg you” couldn’t swing them. Howard Baker couldn’t swing them. Tough, tough time. See, that eats at your core when your Leader and your own people apologize to you for having to do what they have to do, but if they don’t, they turn around and show you that “You’re going to lose my seat if you don’t let me do it.” That is a hell of a predicament to put a Leader in. That was just one more that I had to add. But didn’t you start to say something else, Brien?

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Williams: I was just asking, since we talked about low moments, if you remember any really striking high moments for Dole.

Greene: Oh, by god, yes. I think anything that he did, the way he put himself into civil rights legislation, Americans [with] Disabilities Act, anything dealing with the United Negro Fund, he was—and I’m not saying that a lot of that had to do with the fact that he was gearing up to run for president or had run for president or something. I think that was just in him from Russell, Kansas. He wanted to help the people who needed school lunch. He wanted to help the people with disabilities. Of course, you can see that anywhere today, with curbs and Braille and drive-throughs and things like that. That’s all Bob Dole. But the enormous farm bill that we passed, which was just right down his alley, with subsidies, and how he could cross the aisle to work with [Sen. George] McGovern and [Sen. Tom] Harkin with school lunch programs and subsidy bills and so forth and so on, and the famous get-together with [Sen. Daniel Patrick] Moynihan on Social Security, then George Bush turned it around a few years ago and formed the Social Security Overhaul Committee and appoints Moynihan and overlooks Dole. But he really got into stuff like that. He controlled that floor. Whether it was Byrd or Mitchell, he controlled that floor, and he was there morning, noon, and night, and he gave up [some of ] his speaking [engagements—HG], which he used to run to all the time, speak here and speak there, and he’d be back the next morning. He didn’t know what it was like to sleep in [his own—HG] bed. How that man put up with that, I don’t know. But some of those bills, I’ve got a list of them, but there’s no sense referring to a text like that, but some of those bills that he really got into were the tax bill, the agriculture community, anything to do with the veterans, anything to do with helping military bases around the country, the military construction bill, just as he’s doing now with Walter Reed [Army Medical Center]. You could tell that the makeup of the man was in the bill for the good of the bill, not for the votes that he would get in Kansas or across the country. He was inward. He was hell-bent for leather to do this because it was the right thing to do and not the political thing to do. It was obvious to a lot of people. Of course, the press would not turn that way. The press always would say, well, in order to run in so forth and so on year, Dole’s pushing this or that through. And then

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 52 he’d get on Meet the Press, which was a great opportunity for him. I think at one time he held the record for number of appearances on Meet the Press. [Tim] Russert and [Bob] Schiefer and those guys really treated him well, and he really stood up for himself, too, in explaining that type of legislation, whether it was school lunch or school busing or ADA or farm bills or tax bills or “Let’s not spend unless we can pay for it.” He really made good points, and I think that had a lot to do with him moving up in leadership and eventually getting on the ticket. He would put his heart, mind, and soul [into those bills! —HG]. I tell you one thing, too, his staff were lined in the back of that chamber when he managed a vote, because they didn’t want him to have to turn around and look for someone whose expertise might have been in this, that, and the other, that some senator across the aisle surprised him with [a question—HG]. They’d better not have their ass down the hall and have to be tracked down to come up there; they’d better be standing on that floor when he wanted them.

Williams: Staff members were on the floor of the Senate, is that what you’re saying?

Greene: Staff members have access to the floor if you are a committee member or if you are a member of the Leader’s office. Anybody had to get a pass to come on the floor from committee, except if you were on the Leader’s staff. That was something different, and our staff. We had to come and go.

Williams: Within the spectrum of Republican philosophy, where do you place Dole? You describe these bills that were so important to him, and most of them trend sort of very humanitarian, government programs, sounding almost like a Democrat.

Greene: Well, you say that because of the increase in government, and Dole always campaigned against that, but I think he looked at the smaller picture instead of the bigger picture, that these bills were going to help people, people that he knew from Russell, Kansas, in the Dust Bowl. His mom and dad had to work the way they did, and he looked at this as not being something that would be a burden on the country, but would be a positive to the people who were in need. What did he get out of spending so much

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 53 time going to Bosnia, to try to identify these missing people who were killed by Milosevic? What did he have by getting involved in WW II, which was his heart and soul with the veterans, but with [William J.] Clinton and help on this Freedom Families Scholarship Program and 9/11? A lot of that, I don’t think ideology came into the picture too much there, liberal or conservative, or Democrat or Republican. I think it was Bob Dole’s way of giving back to people that he was himself one and had friends and family who were deprived of those certain things. And first and foremost, I think really his [number one priority—HG] was disabled Americans, obviously, because he did so much for people around the Capitol. He had a couple of girls who were deformed—not deformed, but maybe paralyzed, that ran elevators and stuff like that, and he would give them things all the time. The way he would treat his chauffeur; the way he would give Christmas presents to people who worked for him; the way he would call in people, Brien, whenever there was a Nixon or a Charlton Heston or a bunch of ball players in [for pictures—HG]. He wouldn’t think about calling the senators in. They had an invitation. But he would call the people from the police department, the pages, the people who swept the floors, the people that washed the dishes down in the dining room, to come up and line up outside his office and have their picture taken with so forth and so on, including Nixon. And if there was food left over, “Help yourself.” The little guy he was always looking out for, and it made him feel good. It really made him feel good. [He has a heart as big as the Dome of the Capitol, — HG]

Williams: So let me take you to the closing chapter in your Senate career and start with the election of ’94. What changes did that bring to the Senate?

Greene: Well, it was somewhat of a surprise, to start off with. I think it really—this is just my gut feeling now. I want to make sure this is just from Howard Greene’s warped mind and no one else’s. I think it really threw him into another trend of thought as far as what he was going to do in ’96, for starters. He had a problem with [Sen. Trent] Lott, who was constantly breathing down his back to run for Leader, first of all to run for Whip against [Sen. Alan Simpson. I think we were going to take our time to reshuffle in ’94 [’95—HG] and not be so hell-bent for leather as we were before in ’81. The legislation, I

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 54 think, a lot of it had to do with security and stuff like that, and trying to cut down the deficit and pay for something that you’re going to spend money for by taking money from here for there. But I think the main thing for Dole was gearing up for ’96, and you could sort of tell it, although he didn’t put the word out on the street that he was leaving in less than a year and a half. It was a pretty awkward time because he was gone an awful lot and he left a lot for Simpson to do, as Baker did when he was running for president and left a lot for [Sen.] Ted Stevens to do. Lott was starting to act his normal way as a House member, being pretty rough around the edges and pretty roughshod, and told Simpson to his face, in a policy luncheon one time, that he would not run against him for Whip unless he announced ahead of time he was going to do it. Of course, he reneged on that and ran against him and beat him. Then Lott was Dole’s Whip, and he wasn’t too comfortable with that. Lott would go through the cloakroom and spent a lot of time talking to senators in the cloakroom, not knowing that he was speaking in front of my employees, or didn’t give a damn, and would state how—and this was prior to the word that Dole was going to leave in June of ’96—speak to the fact, “You vote for me and we won’t be here after six o’clock. You vote for me and there won’t be anybody till afternoon time on Friday and nothing till five o’clock on Monday.” But Dole didn’t play that way. You got paid. He’d always say—I’d say, “Senator so forth and so on has got to leave on a plane before four-thirty in the afternoon. He wants to get to California.” “We’re not going to shut down business. He’s getting paid, isn’t he?” He loved to say that. But Lott would come around and he’d try to—I don’t want to say backstab, maybe that’s a little bit too harsh, but he would try to tell people that “If you did it my way, it would be much better than Dole’s way.” And that caused animosity up and down the line. Of course, Simpson, since he got beat by Lott as Whip, as they all do when they get beat before the next election, they start to bail out. Lott wasn’t a very good colleague in the way he did things behind Dole’s back. I told Dole, and he nodded his head, and I think he knew it. Maybe I shouldn’t have said anything. Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut, but my allegiance was to Dole, just as I had to be careful when Stevens ran for Dole for Leader in 1984, because I

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 55 was traveling a lot with Stevens. Whenever a recess came up, Stevens had a plane that was leaving Andrews Air Force Base to go somewhere in the world, and I was always on the plane, at his request. Stevens ran against Dole and Stevens had the votes locked up, and Dole beat him. I was the head [assistant—HG] vote counter. I handed out the ballots and I collected the ballots, and I [helped to count—HG] counted the ballots. We always had two senators who would come up and count the ballots. We did it in the old Senate chamber behind the platform, behind the dais. I had [Sen.] Roger Jepsen and Johnny Tower helping count the ballots, and we counted them once, we counted them twice, and I said, “Boys, gentlemen, I want you to do it one more time.” They counted them three times, and it was Dole that beat Stevens, and Stevens [some thought—HG] was odds-on favor to win it all. Dole’s sitting in the back row and I’m standing by the curtain behind the podium—if you’ve been in the old Senate chamber. I know you have. The red curtain. I was standing off to the side over by one of the great pillars, and Dole was all the way in the back over here. He caught my eye and I went [gestures giving a thumbs up]. He went [gestures expressing surprise]. So as he put it in one of his books, “Howard Greene was the first person to tell me I’d been elected Majority Leader.” I forget which one he put it in. But that was a little difficult to do because I traveled with Stevens. Stevens said to me—we had a trip planned that day, and we had a meeting that night. He thanked Dole, went to Dole and told him he would help him any way he could, so forth and so on, and we had a meeting in Stevens’ office, we were supposed to leave the next morning on a trip to I don’t know where, around the Pacific or Antarctica or somewhere like that. It’s the day of the election night in Stevens’ office, and Stevens says, “Howard, we’re going to cancel the trip, so get hold of the military and tell them we’re not going anywhere.” I said, “Oh, that’s right.” He says, “Hell, no, I’m not traveling anywhere in the world with a bunch of senators, two of which I invited on my trip and two of them sitting here amongst us,” and there were seven of us sitting in the room, and I was the only staff person. “And two of the senators are here sitting with us that lied and said they would support me to vote for election, and they turned around and supported for Dole. I’m going to get on an airplane

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 56 and take them on a trip around the world? You call the Pentagon and say we don’t need their damn plane.” And I thought, “Oo-oo.” So it took a while for that to calm down, Brien, but it did eventually, and Stevens was a player with Dole all the way through. Give Dole credit for the Alaskan Native Plains Bill [with Sen. Stevens—HG], which was the forerunner for the pipeline, giving them statehood. He was really proud of the bills that he got involved in, and again, United Negro Fund and the bills I alluded to, and there are so many more and I’ve missed so many, the tax bills, because that was really his expertise. This goes to show you how brilliant the man was, that he could have handled things like that.

Williams: So he resigned from the Senate in June, and you stayed on until September.

Greene: I stayed on until after the convention. We went to San Diego for the convention.

Williams: So that was your plan?

Greene: Yes, I wanted to stay until ’96. I wanted to stay until the end in the event Dole got elected, for the inauguration. But Lott and I didn’t see eye-to-eye on that. And there were other circumstances going on, too, that I didn’t have any control over with Lott. And of course, the Leader has a right to pick his choice for officers, and I didn’t have any problem with that, except I was told I could stay till January and he reneged on that. Of course, I didn’t want anything to do with Lott anyhow. That’s my feeling completely independent from Dole. I just didn’t think he’s much of a man, and I think he’s sort of proven that by some of his escapades since he’s been there. But we need to let that one drop.

Williams: So you resigned or were asked to go or—

Greene: Well, it’s a combination of both. If somebody wants to replace you with somebody else because it’s their prerogative to have their own person, I guess you say,

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 57 well, your time is up. Retirement time is over with [had arrived—HG], and you know it’s happened to other people, it’s going to happen after you’re gone, and so my retirement papers were in order.

Williams: How did it feel to walk away from the Senate after all these years?

Greene: Like I’d been told I had a fatal disease. Lost. Lost. Maybe I was a little too strong by saying that, but just felt like you lost your sense of being, your sense of—I mean, and I was going through a divorce at the same time, which didn’t help in a lot of ways. But you go from sergeant-at-arms to retired federal worker, I mean, sergeant-at- arms is, not to be slapping myself on the back, is a pretty strong job in this town. I mean, it is a job where you’re the only person on the face of the earth that has the power and the authority to arrest the President of the United States, the Senate sergeant-at-arms. Not the House. The Senate sergeant-at-arms. And you have a lot of clout when people visit the Capitol, inaugurations, stuff like that. And all of a sudden, pfffft, it’s gone. It takes a lot of adjustment, and I had a terrible time. But once I got my feathers straightened out and my ducks in line, I realized it was the greatest thing for me. Retirement’s not bad. I’ve got a nice place here and a condo in Florida. I come and go. I do miss the trips overseas and stuff like that, but I’ve done enough traveling around the face of this earth, more than I can ever begin to recount how many times I’ve done it [and will be forever grateful to those senators who took me on those trips—HG].

Williams: When’s the last time you saw Senator Dole?

Greene: I guess at President Ford’s funeral. Yes. And we had a fundraiser at the Reagan Building back in the early spring, a fundraiser for—and I can’t think of the reason we had it. We had it in one of the halls there.

Williams: Was that the salute for the Dole Institute?

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Greene: Might have been. Might have been. They had a big dinner upstairs after that. Were you there?

Williams: For the earlier part of the evening.

Greene: Downstairs in that big hall there.

Williams: [Department of] Commerce, I think.

Greene: Not Constitution Hall.

Williams: I think it was the Commerce Building.

Greene: Okay. Big hall there. Had dinner upstairs, and I tried to sneak out and I went over to say something to him. I said, “How you doin’? Looking good for an old man.” He said “Where are you going?” I said, “I’m outta here.” He says, “Chow upstairs. Got your name on it.” I said, “What are you talking about? ” He said, “Come on.” What are you going to do? That was his way of doing things [a thank you! —HG]. But some of the times he had with Nixon were priceless, too, because he ate that stuff up when Nixon came up to visit the office, especially at some of those meetings that Nixon would have with former senators and sitting senators and the Bob Strausses and the guys from downtown would come in. Had one meeting which you’re well aware of, which happened I think just a couple of days before Christmas, when Nixon stood in that S207 and talked about world affairs. I have never seen a bunch of senators, former senators, sitting senators, lobbyists, lawyers, big fat cats, the Vernon Jordans, the Robert Strausses, sitting on the edge of their chair for an hour and fifteen minutes and listen to a man that was so smart and so knowledgeable about world affairs. It was unbelievable the way that man had that audience in the palm of his hand. Unbelievable. And you could say what you want to about Richard Nixon. He’s a very personable and very friendly and

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 59 probably [one of—HG] the most intelligent men I’ve been around. Dole would be close, but Dole, with intelligence, had the strategy to be a leader. He knew how to manipulate people. He knew how to work bills. He knew how to push and when to not push. But as far as [his love and respect for—HG] Nixon, it was unbelievable. And Dole loved it when he came to the office. Dole went to see him so much in Saddle River [New Jersey] when he was up there in his little apartment when Pat [Patricia Nixon] was getting sick, and he’d come to the office. One day he said to me, he says, “Howard, can we get on the Senate floor?” I said, “I think so. I’ve got the key to it.” And so he said, “President Nixon is coming and he wants to see his old desk.” I said, “Okay. How are we going to do that?” “He wants to take a picture of it.” I said, “Well, we can take a picture of the desk. I can get one of the photographers to come over and do it.” I said, “How are you going to get this by Byrd?” Dole said, “What do you mean how am I going to get it by Byrd? I’m asking you to do it.” I said, “Well, you know, Byrd doesn’t like that kind of stuff. Of course, Byrd has a lot of respect for Richard Nixon.” Dole said, “Well, work it out.” Good saying. “Work it out.” [imitating Dole] “How we doin’? Work it out.” So I figured, well, there’s only one way to do this. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. So I went over to Byrd’s office. I said, “President Nixon is coming up and we’re going to be locked up and out of session. He wants to see his desk one last time.” As that photograph says—where the hell is it? [looks for photograph on wall of the room] President Richard M. Nixon’s last visit to the Senate was that night. Went on the Senate floor, had the photographer there. I said to Senator Byrd, “I hate to ask you this, because I know your feeling about Senate rules, but Senator Nixon would like to have a picture of his desk.” He says, “President Nixon? Sure. Howard, why don’t you go set it up. Who’s going to be with you?” I said, “Myself, the photographer, you, Senator Dole, and President Nixon.” He said, “I don’t want a big crowd.”

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I said, “That’s okay.” He said, “Sure. Do what you want to.” I said, “What if he wants to go sit up in the chair where he sat when he presided over the Senate as Vice President of the United States?” He says, “Yeah, we can do that. As long as this doesn’t get out.” We did it, and Nixon loved it. He cared more about that, to go around and find his desk, because, as you know, they all scribble their names in their desk, and his desk happened to be used by Jesse Helms. He liked Jesse.

Williams: Interesting. We’re almost to the end of our recording material here. One, maybe two questions left. What effect did televising the Senate have that started in 1985?

Greene: Baker worked on that for a long, long time and wasn’t able to get it through. Due to a lot of Baker’s work, Dole got the credit for doing it because it came in on his watch. In the beginning, a lot of people didn’t want to do it. A lot of people didn’t want to do it because they didn’t want to follow the House, which is no reason at all, but when you know the animosity between the two [at times—HG], you understand it. It changed the Senate not quickly, but over a period of time it changed the Senate to more prolonged speaking, more window dressing, as in charts that were constantly used all the time when they were never used before to make points and to make speeches, to people coming in and wanting to speak at certain hours so they could be live on the West Coast three hours hence, three hours before [sic] us. [Sen.] Pete Wilson used to come in at six or seven o’clock, we’re about to quit, and Dole would say, “Call me when you’re ready to quit. I’ll come down during this.” I said, “I can’t. Wilson’s coming.” He says, “You mean Pete and Repeat are to come in again?” I said, “Yeah.” Of course, Pete turned out to be a good friend. But he didn’t have any choice except to speak [when the timing was right for him in California—HG]. It helped in the end, but there were still problems with it. The Senate could move much more efficient without it, or did. But you had people then who ran the Senate, like Jim Eastland and John Stennis and Russell Long and Herm [Herman] Talmadge and Sam

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Ervin and guys like that. You didn’t need a microphone to hear those voices, and they would speak as long as they wanted to, whether they were wired or not, and no one had the guts to tell them, “Your time is up.” In the beginning, it was a burden. It changed the style, and it still has to this point now where people have got to get up and do more grandstanding and a little bit less factual presentation pro or con.

Williams: What about attendance? Did it have any effect one way or the other?

Greene: Not really. A lot of them like to come in—your attendance record was going to be visible or printed, regardless of whether they’re there or not. But what it did, though, Brien, it made a lot of people come in and give them two or three minutes to get up and explain why they voted for or against a bill where they didn’t have the opportunity to before and be on TV, to use it as a campaign thing. Yes, it helped there. But it extended the amount of time people spoke, how often they spoke, and the style in which they spoke. In other words, more lengthy speeches with the billboards behind them, and thank God they weren’t allowed to have aluminum lights and spotlights and all that stuff, make it look more like a circus background. It changed eventually to the good. The people deserved to see what was going on and not to be in sunset as committees were for a while. [I’ll take the old days before TV: speeches from the gut, no notes, and very effective. —HG]

Williams: I think my last question is more sort of setting up a scenario. If I were Bob Dole right now, what would you want to say to me?

Greene: If you were Bob Dole. Wow. I think probably something that I’ve never had a chance to say, how much I admired the man for the leader that he was, when I compare him to people like Dirksen and Scott and Baker and Byrd and Long and Mansfield and Mitchell and [Sen. Tom] Daschle, to say how much it was an honor to watch him, how he could manipulate the most deliberative body in the world and get things done in a majority-minority, and to thank him for the opportunity to have that job, to progress up the ladder as I was able to do, probably without the ability to hold some of those

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 62 positions, for the right to have this home in Mount Vernon, to travel on those trips all over the world, to have a condo in Florida. I’ve stood in awe of no other man than Bob Dole.

Williams: I think we’re done.

[End File 1. Begin File 2.]

Williams: Okay, we’re going to pick up for a couple of last comments here. Go ahead.

Greene: Just a couple things off the top of my head. Dole had an excellent staff around him. Dole had some good people in various fields, but Dole had—I don’t want to use “the problem.” Dole had a peculiar way of delegating authority. Whenever something came to Dole’s mind, he would reach out to the closest staff person around him and say, “Go write me a speech on this,” or, “Get an amendment to do on this,” or, “Take this down to Howard down on the floor to make sure this amendment is filed on a certain bill,” “Go down to the floor and make sure that amendment that Tom, Dick, or Harry put in has Senator so forth’s name as a co-sponsor.” In other words, whoever happened to be at arm’s length, Dole would grab to do something, whether that person happened to be the expert in the office on a finance-related matter, he would give it to whoever was coming by. An agriculture matter, his agriculture guy wasn’t handy, so he’d give it to someone else. That caused a little bit of friction in the office, and it was a little bit of jealousy in the office, but it was not a problem because they knew that no one was going to take that to Dole; that was just his style. That was just his way. I think it was more his army experience coming back to whoever is there, follow the order. That’s strictly my opinion [not a flaw as much as it was get it done “before” now—HG]. There’s one other thing that I wanted to mention, that in 1991 during the [Operation] Desert Storm resolution, Dole and Mitchell got together with me and my counterpart to work out a time limitation on a resolution for [authorizing—HG] the war in Desert Storm and Baghdad, whatever. We were getting close to a weekend, and I think to a recess, and we wanted to restrict it down to so much time, and I think we had a

This document is from the collections at the Dole Archives, University of Kansas. http://dolearchives.ku.edu Greene 7-11-07 p. 63 two-hour [four-hour—HG] limitation, two hours for Republicans, two hours for Democrats. I was sitting in the cloakroom one afternoon, and Al Gore busts through the door. Again, this was ’91. Busts through the door and says, “Howard, how much time will Bob give me to speak on the resolution, end-of-war resolution?” I said, “I don’t know, Senator. How much time do you want?” He said, “I want seven or eight minutes.” I said, “You for or against it?” No answer. So I went off somewhere else, behind someone. I was walking across the floor and hear someone say, “Howard.” George Mitchell. Says, “Howard, have you talked to Al Gore?” I said, “Yeah.” Mitchell—I have a lot of respect and I admire George Mitchell. He could be tough. He was very partisan, but he was very polite and he did it in a nice way. Sometimes he would cut your head off and you didn’t know it till you moved it when it fell on the floor, but he would do it in a nice way. Anyhow, I said, “Yeah, he came in the cloakroom, gave me a whole boatload of crap about wanting to know how much time he could get on the resolution.” He says, “That damn guy is chopping his vote on how to vote on the war resolution, the right for Bush to go to war.” I said, “What do you mean?” He says, “Well, he came to me and said, ‘I’ve got my time allotted.’ We only had two hours each. I told him I could give him a minute and a half or two minutes.” I said, “Huh. He wanted seven or eight minutes.” He says, “Good luck.” I go to Dole’s office. So I’m sitting in the office. Here comes Gore walking in. I got up to leave. Dole says, “Stay here.” Al comes in and says, “Bob, how much time can I get on the resolution?” Dole looks at me and says, “Howard, how much time we got?” I said, “We’re tight on time. Everybody wants to speak. We’ve only got two hours. Maybe a couple minutes.” “Bob, damn it, I’ve got to have more time than that.” Dole said, “Are you going to speak for it?”

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He says, “I’m going to speak on the side that gives me the most time to speak.” He wanted to grandstand on the resolution, and for whoever said, whether it was Democrat or Dole, whoever gave him the most time, he was going to vote that way on the resolution. Hello? We go back in the cloakroom. I’m sitting in the cloakroom. I left Dole’s office. Gore comes in again and says, “Goddamn it, Howard, if I don’t get the time that I want, I’m going to vote the other way.” I said, “Sir, you’ll have to take that up with the Leader.” I said, “He’ll be down here in a minute.” Simpson walks in. He gets in the middle of it. He’s amazed at what’s going on. So finally I think Dole and Mitchell got together and they both said, in so many words, “We don’t give a damn what he does. Here he is shopping his vote for the most amount of time he can get to grandstand on TV.” When it came to the 2000 election, someone let the cat out of the bag about this. They went to Dole, they went to Simpson. Well, what was the easy way out of this? “Call Howard. He was right in the middle of all that. Howard had to deal with the time. He was giving out the time.” And I was. Senator called, “I want three minutes.” Warner wants five minutes. So forth and so on. I kept the time. That was part of my job. Democrats [also—HG] had their person doing it. So I’m on my way to Florida and I stopped to call a friend of mine, stopping in at Hilton Head. I said, “We’ll spend the night. I’ll be in tomorrow.” She says, “You’d better get out of here. What have you done?” I said, “Why?” Glenn Beck had a radio show on WFLA-Tampa, talk show like he has now. He had me all over the thing about being involved in this, Gore selling his vote. We’re in 2000 now, so it’s election time. I don’t know whether the timing, Brien, was prior to the nomination or after he had the nomination prior to the November election. I can look that up, but I forget now. But here that was, Dole and Simpson, and I had people coming here from as far away as New Mexico wanting to take what I’m just telling you in a little bit more detail and a little bit more finesse, take all this, try to send it out. I said, “Nuh-uh. I ain’t doing this.” So I called Dole back. I said, “What are you doing putting these guys on me?”

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He says, “Well, I told them I didn’t remember the whole story. I told them to call Al, and Al said he didn’t remember the whole story. If they wanted to get it right, to call Greene, because Greene can remember more things about what’s going on down there.” I said, “Yeah, right. Greene’s retired and you guys are out making money, $150,000 for a speech. Who do you dump it on? The staff guy.” But that was one of the weirdest things, and it ran for a while. It ran in the papers, it ran on the TVs. [Rush] Limbaugh had it. Of course they put it on me as telling the story, which I could tell it right, because if you got to Dole and to Simpson, one would get that half-ass, the other would have it a quarter-ass. But that was a funny thing [and I enjoyed it—HG]. That’s the thing that you run into that doesn’t leave you as long as you live. When you see people aspiring to be President of the United States would run around and sell their vote for the difference between two minutes and eight minutes to speak on a TV camera and aspire to be President of the United States, that leads you to believe anybody or anything can be President of the United States [and after the 2000 election we now know that! — HG].

Williams: Shall we end it on that note?

Greene: That’s good.

[End of interview]

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Index

Aaron, Hank, 44 Agnew, Spiro, 36 Allott, Sen. Gordon, 28, 30 Angus, Marie, 17

Baker, Sen. Howard H. Jr., 2, 17, 22, 28, 30, 31, 32, 33, 46, 49, 50, 54, 61 efforts for televising the U.S. Senate, 60 Beck, Glenn, 64 Bosnia Robert J. Dole's interest in, 53 Bricker, Sen. John, 38 Brooke, Sen. Edward, 28, 30 Bush, George H.W., 22, 38, 46 and Robert J. Dole, 51 Bush, George W., 39 Bush, Sen. Prescott, 38 Byrd, Sen. Robert C., 13, 44, 51, 59, 61 and Robert J. Dole, 45

Carlson, Sen. Frank, 34 Carter, Jimmy, 32 Case, Sen. Clifford, 28, 30 Clinton, William J., 22 Coe, Jo-Anne L., 35, 42 Curtis, Sen. Carl, 17

D’Amato, Sen. Alfonse, 50 Daschle, Sen. Tom, 61 DeArment, Roderick, 42 Denton, Sen. Jerry, 23 Dirksen, Sen. Everett, 12, 25, 26, 28, 31, 61 and Lyndon B. Johnson, 25, 27 and Sen. Margaret Chase Smith, 28 and Sen. Mike Mansfield, 29 Dole, Robert J., 2, 16, 17, 19, 20, 22, 23, 28, 30, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 62, 64 and 1994 election results, 53 and Meet the Press, 51 and Rep. Dan Rostenkowski, 40 and Richard M. Nixon, 35, 36, 58 and Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, 51 and Sen. George McGovern, 51 and Sen. John Tower, 46, 47

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and Sen. Robert C. Byrd, 45 and Sen. Russell B. Long, 40 and Sen. Tom Harkin, 51 and Sen. Trent Lott, 53, 54 efforts for televising the U.S. Senate, 60 fired as chairman of Republican National Committee, 36 Majority Leader of U.S. Senate, 37 member of Agricultural Committee, 37 member of Finance Committee, 37 Dominick, Sen. Peter, 30 Dompierre, Oliver J., 26, 27

Eagleton, Sen. Tom, 7 Eastland, Sen. James O., 31, 60 Ervin, Sen. Sam, 61 Exon, Sen. James, 7

Ford, Gerald R., 26

Goldwater, Sen. Barry, 16, 46 Gomien, Glee, 26 Gomien, John, 26 Gordon, Sen. Slade, 50 Gore, Sen. Albert Jr., 16, 63 Greene, Howard O. Jr. early interest in politics, 3 educational background, 2 family background, 2, 3 love for his work, 4 on 1994 election results, 53 on 1994 Republican Senate leadership elections, 54 on George H. Bush, 39 on George H.W. Bush, 38 on Lyndon B. Johnson, 27 on Marie Angus, 17 on Robert J. Dole, 16, 19, 20, 22, 23, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 62 on Sen. Everett Dirksen, 25, 27, 28, 31 on Sen. Everett Dirksen’s last days in the Senate, 26 on Sen. George Mitchell, 63 on Sen. Howard H. Baker, Jr., 22, 31, 32, 33 on Sen. Hugh Scott, 28, 29, 30 on Sen. John Jay Williams, 2 on Sen. John Tower, 46, 47 on Sen. John Warner, 47 on Sen. Margaret Chase Smith, 30 on Sen. Nancy L. Kassebaum, 47 on Sen. Pete Wilson, 60

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on Sen. Prescott Bush, 38 on Sen. Strom Thurmond, 15, 30 on Sen. Ted Stevens, 55 on Sen. Trent Lott, 54, 56 on U.S. House of Representatives, 34 on U.S. Senate, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 30, 31, 32, 34, 53 resignation from U.S. Senate staff, 57 secretary for the majority, 2, 14, 17, 21, 22 secretary for the minority, 2, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 22 sergeant-at-arms, 2, 23, 24

Harkin, Sen. Tom, 20 Hawkins, Sen. Paula, 23 Helms, Sen. Jesse, 16, 60 Heston, Charlton, 44 Hollings, Sen. Ernest, 35 Hope, Bob, 44

Inouye, Sen. Daniel, 13

Jackson, Sen. Henry M., 41 Javits, Sen. Jake, 28 Jepsen, Roger, 55 Johnson, Lyndon B. and Sen. Everett Dirksen, 25, 27 Jordan, Hamilton, 32 Jordan, Vernon, 58

Kassebaum, Sen. Nancy L., 47 Kennedy, John F., 3 Kennedy, Sen. Edward M., 13, 16, 35

Laxalt, Sen. Paul, 32 Lehn, Al, 42 Letchworth, Elizabeth, 23 Limbaugh, Rush, 65 Long, Sen. Russell B., 48, 60, 61 and Robert J. Dole, 40 Lott, Sen. Trent, 56 and Robert J. Dole, 53, 54

Mansfield, Sen. Mike, 30, 31, 41, 61 and Sen. Everett Dirksen, 29 Mattingly, Sen. Matt, 23 McCluney, Joyce, 42 McClure, Fred, 46 McClure, Sen. James, 31 McGovern, Sen. George, 51

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McMahon, Ron, 46 Meet the Press, 3, 52 Methodist Building, Washington, D.C., 39 Meyer, Betty, 36 Milosevic, Slobodan, 53 Mitchell, Sen. George, 51, 61, 62, 63 Morton, Sen. Thurston, 28 Moynihan, Sen. Daniel Patrick, 51 Mundt, Sen. Karl, 30, 38

Nixon, Julie, 10 Nixon, Patricia, 10, 59 Nixon, Richard M., 35, 59 and Robert J. Dole, 58 and Sen. Jesse Helms, 60 Nunn, Sen. Sam, 41, 47

Oklahoma City bombing and tightened security at U.S. Senate, 6 Operation Desert Storm (1991), 62

Packwood, Sen. Robert, 30, 41 Pearson, Sen. James, 34 Prince Charles, 10 Princess Anne, 10 Prouty, Sen. Winston, 28, 30

Reagan, Ronald, 2, 22, 31, 50 Rostenkowski, Rep. Dan and Robert J. Dole, 40 Russell, Sen. Richard, 31, 35 Russert, Tim and Robert J. Dole, 52

Sarbanes, Sen. Paul, 16 Schiefer, Bob and Robert J. Dole, 52 Scott, Sen. Hugh, 12, 28, 29, 30 and Sen. Mike Mansfield, 30 Simpson, Sen. Alan, 53, 54, 64 Smith, Sen. Margaret Chase, 30 and Sen. Everett Dirksen, 28 Stennis, Sen. John, 16, 31, 41, 60 Stevens, Sen. Ted, 54, 55 and Robert J. Dole, 56 Strauss, Robert, 58 Symms, Sen. Steven, 49, 50

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Talmadge, Sen. Herman, 60 Thurmond, Sen. Strom, 15, 28, 30 Tower, Sen. John, 16, 30, 37, 41, 46, 47, 48, 55 Trice, Mark, 12

U.S. House of Representatives, 34 U.S. Senate, 13, 30, 31, 32, 34, 53 and seniority, 12, 13 cloakrooms, 9, 10, 11 effects of television coverage, 60, 61 patronage system, 2, 4 role of doorkeepers, 8 role of president of the Senate, 21 secretary for the majority, 5, 14, 17, 21, 22 secretary for the minority, 5, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 22 secretary of the U.S. Senate, 5 security, 6 senators' hideaway offices, 12, 13 sergeant-at-arms, 6, 7 University of Maryland, 2

Vietnam War, 15

Warner, Sen. John, 47 Watergate, 35, 36 Weicker, Sen. Lowell, 16 Wesley College, 2 Williams, Sen. John Jay, 2, 3, 4 Wilson, Sen. Pete, 60