Tuesday Volume 571 3 December 2013 No. 87

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 3 December 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 759 3 DECEMBER 2013 760

of the European Parliament, from all political families, House of Commons who supported the initiative that our colleague, Ashley Fox, led and co-ordinated. Tuesday 3 December 2013 Miss McIntosh: The decision on a single seat was taken under a Conservative Government and in relation The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock to an EU treaty, so presumably it will have to be amended by an EU treaty. Which other member states PRAYERS support us, and should we not wait until the Chamber is ready to host the European Parliament again in full session in Brussels before proceeding? [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr Lidington: What was striking about the debate and the vote a few days ago was that the clearly expressed will of a decisive majority of Members of the European BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Parliament was that there should be a single seat, and it seems to me that their voice should be heard clearly. HUMBER BRIDGE BILL The Parliament has also said that it wishes to initiate Motion made, That the Lords amendments be now proposals for treaty change at a future opportunity to considered. try to give effect to the change it is now recommending.

Hon. Members: Object. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Given that that travelling circus costs ¤180 million a year, or ¤1 billion Lords amendments to be considered on Tuesday over the course of the EU’s seven-year budget, which is 10 December. a staggering figure, does the Minister agree that those involved in the single seat campaign in the European Parliament, including Members from my party, deserve Oral Answers to Questions to be commended for putting an end to that kind of waste?

Mr Lidington: I am happy to repeat those FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE commendations. Of course, there is not only financial waste; an unnecessary amount of carbon is emitted as the Members, their staff and the accompanying luggage The Secretary of State was asked— are transported from one place to another. European Parliament Trade and Investment (Africa) 1. Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): What assessment he has made of the recent decision by the 2. Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Ind): What recent European Parliament to meet in a single location. steps his Department has taken to promote trade and [901368] investment opportunities for British firms operating in Africa. [901369] 14. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): What assessment he has made of the recent decision by The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign the European Parliament to meet in a single location. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): Boosting [901381] trade and investment is one of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s major priorities in Africa. We The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): We have strengthened commercial teams throughout the have been clear that there should be a single seat for the region. Last month I launched high-level prosperity European Parliament. The current arrangements are partnerships with Angola, Côte d’Ivoire, Ghana, indefensible, ludicrously expensive, impractical and one Mozambique and Tanzania. That combines expertise of the most striking illustrations of EU waste. from the Department for International Development, UK Trade & Investment, the FCO and the private Chris Heaton-Harris: If there is one thing that unifies sector to create a paradigm shift in the UK’s trade this House more than any other, it is that the European relationship with those five countries. Parliament’s commute between Brussels and Strasbourg once a month, at a massive cost of over £10 million a Mr Evans: Does the Minister agree that with growth time, is a waste of money. Is he not surprised, therefore, rates of up to 8%, a population of 1 billion and a that one British political party abstained in the combined GDP of around $2 trillion, and with sub-Saharan parliamentary vote and failed to protect the British Africa being the second-fastest growing region in the interest and the taxpayer interest—the UK Independence world, trade is an effective alternative to aid and strengthens party? diplomatic ties?

Mr Lidington: I am afraid that I am not surprised, Mark Simmonds: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. because that party’s representatives are often absent in Six of the world’s top-10 fastest growing economies are key votes in the European Parliament when significant in sub-Saharan Africa. Certainly, among the main focuses British interests are at stake. I congratulate those Members of African Governments are economic development 761 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 762 and growth, wealth and job creation. They are becoming between Nigeria and the UK. Will the Minister update more determined to stimulate economic growth as a us on how that is progressing, particularly in certain major focus in alleviating poverty. We need to ensure business sectors? that, in addition to building trade and investment co-operation we assist in building Government capacity Mark Simmonds: The hon. Lady is absolutely right and ensure that UK businesses are aware of the significant that the Prime Minister and President Jonathan stipulated opportunities that exist in sub-Saharan Africa. that trade needs to increase significantly by 2015. We are on track to meet those targets, not just in the Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): obvious oil and gas and extractive sectors but across a Obtaining investment is vital to Africa. What actions is whole range of economic sectors, particularly as in the Department taking to encourage trade and investment southern Nigeria the levels of affluence mean that the specifically in northern Nigeria, which seems to be left Nigerian middle class is growing. That is creating huge out on many occasions? opportunities for businesses in the consumer and creative arts sectors, and that is something that our missions are Mark Simmonds: The hon. Gentleman will be well supporting. aware of the challenges that are being faced in northern Nigeria. I was there earlier in the year and saw some of the excellent work that is being done in trying to alleviate Gibraltar some of the conflicts and to encourage co-operation between the various religious groups. I also saw some of 3. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What the work that the Department for International recent reports he has received on the situation in Development is doing to build capacity in terms of Gibraltar. [901370] providing services and trying create the security and stability that is the precursor to economic investment The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): We and development. remain very concerned by delays at Gibraltar’s border with Spain and are pressing the Spanish authorities to George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): I congratulate act on the European Commission’s recommendations the Minister on the work that the Government are to them. We continue to work closely with the Government doing, particularly through the FCO working with UKTI of Gibraltar to uphold the sovereignty of the United in promoting trade around the world. Does he agree Kingdom and the rights of the people of Gibraltar, that Kenya and east Africa is a particularly important including by challenging unlawful Spanish incursions market for us where we may be able better to integrate into British Gibraltar territorial waters. our DFID aid work and our UKTI and FCO trade work? I was there this summer, and have been there in Jason McCartney: Having spent a short period of my recent years, and one sees that Kenya is on the front line Royal Air Force service in Gibraltar, I am aware of the of the global race, with corruption and with progressive importance of having a workable border crossing. Will British capitalism based in Nairobi. my right hon. Friend urge the Commission to keep its promise to make it easier for traffic to cross the Gibraltar Mark Simmonds: My hon. Friend is absolutely right border and follow up this matter with Spain so that the that Kenya is a major trading partner for the United people of Gibraltar can enjoy the EU rights that Spain Kingdom. Significant UK businesses are already investing owes them? in Kenya. Only this morning I spoke to open the UKTI Kenya conference at Mansion House in the City of Mr Lidington: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. London, which was extremely well attended. In addition We are indeed continuing to press the Spanish authorities to the obvious focus on the financial services sector, we to implement what the Commission has recommended need to focus on a whole range of areas and economic they do, including adding to the number of traffic lanes sectors where the UK has particular expertise, such as so that cars can get through more smoothly and looking the automotive industries. at how to risk-profile travellers crossing the border so Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Usually diplomatic that those who may be smugglers or other criminals can networks are used to promote trade and export by be properly identified and ordinary citizens not celebrating national days, but a survey over the weekend inconvenienced. showed that of 20 UK diplomatic and consular postings, not a single one was doing anything to celebrate St Andrew’s Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May day. Why was that? I urge the Minister to use all his influence to temper the language that is being used in this dispute? There Mark Simmonds: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman undoubtedly is a dispute, but the Spanish are great will be aware that the UK diplomatic missions around allies of ours: they are fellow members of the European the world, particularly in Africa, do everything they can Union and many British people live in Spain. Can we to promote all UK businesses, including Scottish businesses just lower the temperature and stop throwing brickbats that go on UK trade missions. When I was in South at each other? Africa I promoted a Scottish trade mission to secure work for businesses in Scotland and in the rest of the Mr Lidington: I would be only too pleased if we United Kingdom. could lower the temperature. It is not just a matter of lowering the temperature in verbal exchanges but Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ of expecting our NATO allies in Spain to desist from Co-op): In 2011, President Goodluck Jonathan and the the unlawful incursions into British Gibraltar waters Prime Minister signed an agreement to increase trade that have been all too common. 763 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 764

EU and Ukraine Mr Hague: Clearly, it is open to Ukraine to change its policy. As my right hon. Friend knows, there is a great deal of discussion about that in Ukraine at the moment. 4. Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): Again, I urge the Ukrainian authorities to respect the What recent discussions he has had with his European right of peaceful protest and to investigate thoroughly counterparts on the relationship between the European why police violence was used several days ago. I believe Union and Ukraine. [901371] it would also be in the long-term interests of Russia for Ukraine to have more open trade with the European The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Union. The sorts of economic benefits that I have said Affairs (Mr William Hague): This was the main focus at would flow to Ukraine would go on to benefit the the October Foreign Affairs Council. The decision to Russian economy as well. put on hold the signature of the EU-Ukraine association agreement is a missed opportunity. The EU’s door Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire remains open. It is, of course, up to Ukraine to decide South) (Lab): The Foreign Secretary said a moment ago whether to walk through it and I strongly urge the that the benefits of this potential agreement are self-evident. Ukrainian authorities to respect the right of their people The EU High Representative has described it as the to express peacefully their views on this issue. “most ambitious agreement ever offered to a partner country”, yet, as we have heard, the Ukrainian President has Mr Streeter: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the refused to sign it. Will the Foreign Secretary set out a Ukrainian President’s recent decision not to sign the little more of what he believes were the main barriers to association agreement is doubly disappointing in that it the deal being agreed and whether he still believes they would have brought great benefits to the Ukrainian can be overcome, given the external pressure on Ukraine? people? What more can the European Union do to help Ukraine turn its back fully on its Soviet past and Mr Hague: One principal barrier was the pressure embrace a democratic European family? from Russia not to sign or make such an agreement with the European Union. As I have said, we disagree Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is right. Agreement on a with that assessment even from Russia’s point of view. deep and comprehensive free trade area would eliminate It would be in the interests of Russia and the whole of 99% of customs duties, in trade value, with Ukraine. eastern Europe to have more open trade and co-operation That would save Ukraine about ¤500 million per annum. with each other. We will go on setting out the advantages, Economic analysts suggest that 6% would be added to but we will also look to Ukraine to clearly meet the Ukrainian GDP through more open trade with the criteria set out in the association agreement. Reliable European Union. The door will remain open and I studies have suggested that average wages in Ukraine believe that that message will be clearly communicated would rise and that exports to the EU would rise by by all EU member states. an estimated 6%. The arguments are very clear, but in the end it is for Ukrainians to make their judgment on Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ them. Co-op): The situation in Ukraine is obviously intense and it is important that nothing is done by any outside Mr Alexander: I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary parties to exacerbate it. Will the Secretary of State give for the candour of his last answer, which confirms the some more information about what the UK Government role that Russia clearly played in the events that unfolded are doing to try to get the negotiations back on course at the summit. Reports suggest that the International and to encourage the agreement with Ukraine to go Monetary Fund has a stand-by facility of between ahead? $10 billion and $15 billion to provide emergency financial support for Ukraine should Russia take steps to increase Mr Hague: It is for Ukraine to make a decision about economic pressure on the country. Will he set out the this. The advantages of an association agreement and a British Government’s position on that stand-by facility, deep and comprehensive free trade area are self-evident. and say whether he thinks there might be circumstances It is for the people of Ukraine and their Government to in which it is appropriate to make it available to Ukraine? make a judgment about that. The door remains open, as I said a moment ago. We will continue to make that Mr Hague: If Ukraine is to make use of that facility, point to them, including in all our discussions with it is necessary for it to engage in important structural Ukrainian Ministers over the next few weeks. I think reforms. The reforms on which the IMF has made the rest of the EU will do the same, but in the end it has a new arrangement conditional would help to build to be their decision and their judgment. a more stable and prosperous Ukraine, which again is important. Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): May I warmly It is also important to note in passing that although welcome the fact that the door remains open, particularly this agreement has not been signed, deep and comprehensive in the light of the reaction of the Ukrainian people and free trade areas have been agreed between the EU and the distinct possibility that there might be a change of Georgia and Moldova, so parts of the EU’s Eastern policy or even a change of the Ukrainian Government Partnership have continued to progress. themselves? Does the Foreign Secretary agree that the alternative would not only dash the hopes and interests Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): Does my of the Ukrainian people, but give a very serious boost right hon. Friend agree that the first priority must be to to the dangerous ambition of President Putin to try to put pressure on the Ukrainian Government to stop the restore some form of Russian empire? shocking violence that has been committed over the last 765 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 766 few days against the peaceful protesters currently in EU Treaty Change Independence square? Does he, however, take some encouragement from the stated commitment of the 6. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Government of Ukraine that they still wish to achieve, What recent assessment he has made of the likelihood in due course, closer relations with the European Union, of EU treaty change before 2017. [901373] which is clearly the overwhelming desire of the Ukrainian people? The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): A number of ideas being Mr Hague: That does seem to be the desire of the considered in European capitals would require treaty majority of the Ukrainian people, so all hon. Members change. The President of the Commission has made will of course hope that Ukraine is able to go in that proposals requiring treaty change, and the fiscal compact’s direction. My hon. Friend is quite right to say that the signatories hope to see the compact put into the treaties first priority at the moment is to stress the need to allow before January 2018. Europe is changing because of the peaceful protest. We have done that in the statements eurozone crisis, and we should expect that process to we issued at the weekend and in what I have said today. include treaty change. The incident at the weekend provoked domestic outrage and international condemnation, quite rightly, but we Steve McCabe: Does that mean that negotiations will keep the door open, as he and others have asked. have actually commenced, and if so, when do they have to be concluded? What is the absolute deadline to meet Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership the commitment for a referendum in 2017?

Mr Hague: No. Clearly, negotiations have not 5. Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): commenced, although the Government continue at all What discussions he has had with his US counterpart times to work on seeking a more competitive European during negotiations on the transatlantic trade and Union that is less regulatory, and in any such negotiation investment partnership on the US blockade of the we of course want an EU that will be more accountable Republic of Cuba and its effect on European to national Parliaments as well. The position of the companies doing business in that country. [901372] Conservative party, rather than of Her Majesty’s Government as a whole, is to implement the European The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My Union (Referendum) Bill, which was passed in this right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has discussed House on Friday, and that means a referendum by the the transatlantic trade and investment partnership with end of 2017. Secretary Kerry. Both are keen supporters of this free trade agreement, which is worth up to £10 billion to the Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Would UK economy.They did not cover Cuba in those discussions. it require treaty change to ensure that the benefits paid to EU citizens are paid at the rate prevailing in their Natascha Engel: Will the Minister use all his influence home country? to persuade the United States to lift the blockade, which is bad for Cubans, bad for trade and bad for British Mr Hague: It does not require treaty change to business? ensure that the concept of free movement is carried out on a more sensible basis. It should not be about exporting Mr Lidington: We make it clear to the United States child benefit, for instance. The Prime Minister has set that we disagree with its approach to Cuba. We think out changes that we can make without treaty change. that the blockade is counter-productive and that the However, it is possible to contemplate, as the Prime way to strengthen the chances of both economic and Minister has also set out, having new arrangements on political reform in Cuba is through engagement, including free movement for countries that join the EU to slow on trade. the access to each other’s labour markets until we can be sure that it will not cause vast migration. Some of those Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): At the arrangements would require treaty change. heart of this argument is a tactic that the United States has deployed in a number of different scenarios—namely, 17. [901385]David Wright (Telford) (Lab): The Foreign that it seeks to impose restrictions on US companies Secretary and the Prime Minister will have had trading around the world, but also on non-US companies discussions with Chancellor Merkel about the EU trading outside the jurisdiction of the United States. referendum process. Given that the new coalition Will the Minister use the TTIP talks to try to persuade agreement in Germany has no mention whatever of the United States to reconsider that tactic not just in EU treaty change, what progress has actually been Cuba, but more widely? made? Mr Hague: I assure the hon. Gentleman that there Mr Lidington: I am not sure that the TTIP talks are have been many coalition agreements in Germany—there the right opportunity for doing that, but my right hon. has been one every four years for decades—that have Friend certainly makes a good point. As he knows, we not mentioned treaty change, but that have been followed have both UK and EU legislation specifically to counter by many changes in European treaties. Indeed, Chancellor the extraterritorial impact of US sanctions against other Merkel said at a conference just last month: countries’ companies operating in or trading with Cuba, and we continue to keep under review the necessity for “Germany is ready to develop the treaties still further.” such legislation as regards other countries. That is the position of Chancellor Merkel herself. 767 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 768

Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): If the Foreign Secretary its support for our declaration on ending sexual violence achieved his reform objectives and any consequential in conflict, but we will continue, as I am sure will treaty changes in principle with European Council members, Members across the House, to argue that it should but another country subsequently rejected those treaty do so. changes in a referendum, what would he do? Mr Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): I warmly Mr Hague: That argument can be made about any commend my right hon. Friend for his initiative on treaty in the European Union. In respect of past treaties, preventing sexual violence in conflict. To deliver the including those that the right hon. Gentleman negotiated, results that he and all of us want to see, what point has my party would say that the people of this country he found in his research to be the most incentivising on should have had the right to say no in a referendum. the leaders of countries that we need to encourage to Treaty change, of course, requires unanimous approval. make the matter a priority? As he well knows, that has not stopped many treaties over the past 15 years—indeed, over the past few decades— Mr Hague: The crucial point is that although there and it will not stop treaty change in future. is an overwhelming moral argument for dealing with the issue, there are also important considerations of Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative conflict resolution. Conflicts are not resolved unless sexual violence is tackled, because it perpetuates conflict, 7. Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): divides communities and pits them against each other What progress has been made on the preventing sexual into the long-term future. Many leaders across the violence initiative following his recent visit to Sri Lanka world can see that, which is why countries such as for CHOGM. [901374] Somalia and Ministers in the Democratic Republic of the Congo support the initiative that we have taken. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): At the Commonwealth 21. [901392] Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): The Heads of Government meeting, the UK secured agreement Prime Minister has said that if the investigation to to strengthen capacity to tackle sexual violence in which the Foreign Secretary has just referred is not conflict-affected states, to improve the monitoring and completed by next March, he will call for an documentation of cases of sexual violence, and to empower independent international inquiry. Does the Foreign victims to access justice. Thirty-four members of the Secretary stand by that statement? Commonwealth have endorsed our declaration of commitment to end sexual violence in conflict. Mr Hague: Yes, of course. I do not think the hon. Gentleman will have found any statement in recent Paul Uppal: I thank my right hon. Friend for that years where the Prime Minister and I differ—I hope he response. He met many civil society groups in Sri Lanka has not. Opposition Front Benchers are thinking hard recently and spoke at length about this issue. Will he about that now. Of course we stand by that statement. assure me and the House that we will maintain the In March, there will be a session of the Human Rights pressure on this issue, particularly in respect of our Council, of which, I am pleased to say, the United Commonwealth partners? Kingdom was re-elected as a voting member last month. We will use that position to raise this issue along with Mr Hague: Yes, absolutely. I gave a speech on this many others around the world. issue at a special event in Colombo in Sri Lanka a few weeks ago. I also met local non-governmental organisations Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Forty-one out of and civil society representatives to learn more about it. 53 Commonwealth countries criminalise same-sex We will continue to raise this issue in Sri Lanka and relationships, as documented by the Kaleidoscope Trust other conflict-affected states, where such matters are in a report just in advance of the Commonwealth controversial and sometimes historically difficult, and Heads of Government meeting. What progress was to gather the maximum possible support ahead of next made in addressing that stain on the reputation of the June’s global summit, which I announced last week. Commonwealth and the personal freedom of its citizens?

18. [901386]Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): Mr Hague: Frankly, too little progress has been made In Sri Lanka, it is not unusual for a rape case to take on that in recent years. The United Kingdom raises the 12 years to be resolved or brought to court. There is matter, and in fact I gave a speech at the previous little or no accountability for security forces that are CHOGM in Australia specifically about the importance involved in such violence. Will the Foreign Secretary of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender rights in the outline the specific measures that were agreed with the Commonwealth. We raise the matter regularly with our Sri Lankan Government following his recent trip? partners in the Commonwealth, but it is an area in which the human rights record of the Commonwealth Mr Hague: In common with other Governments, we as a whole is not good enough. have called on the Sri Lankan authorities to investigate in an independent and credible manner the allegations Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I very much of sexual violence, including the allegations that it was welcome the Foreign Secretary’s efforts on the preventing committed by Sri Lankan forces during and after the sexual violence initiative, but as he has said, he came recent conflict. The Prime Minister has made it clear away from CHOGM without having got a commitment that in the absence of an independent investigation, we from President Rajapaksa to endorse the initiative. Given will press for an international investigation. We will that face-to-face lobbying by the Foreign Secretary, and continue to put that case. Sri Lanka has not yet stated I hope by the Prime Minister as well, failed to convince 769 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 770 the Sri Lankan Government to sign up, what steps does than a decade ago. It is further complicated by the fact he think he can take now to ensure that they make that that there are intelligence implications and a read-across commitment in the near future? to other cases in Cuba. The UK has no direct locus in this case as it exists between the US and Cuba. If the Mr Hague: We can take many steps. First, 34 countries hon. Gentleman has information that should have been of the Commonwealth—and 137 countries in the world made available about the case, I suggest it is made as a whole—have now signed the declaration. I spoke available to US judicial authorities as a matter of urgency. last night to the diplomatic corps here and said that EU Membership now that only a minority of countries in the world have not signed our declaration on sexual violence, it is time 9. Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) for them to get on with it and not be left out of that (Con): What his priorities are for reform of the terms work. Of course, Sri Lanka is one of the hardest countries of UK membership of the EU. [901376] to convince about that, for instance because one of the provisions of our declaration is that there will be no 10. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Which EU amnesty in peace agreements for crimes of sexual violence powers and competences he plans to renegotiate back and that there will be real accountability for what to the UK. [901377] happened in the past. It is easy to see why the Sri Lankan Government do not want to embrace those 12. Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and issues, but we will keep on raising them with them. Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): Which EU powers and competences he plans to renegotiate back to the UK. Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): May I congratulate [901379] my right hon. Friend on taking important steps towards The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth dealing with this vile problem? Does he agree that it Affairs (Mr William Hague): In his speech at the beginning may be necessary to amend the Geneva convention to of the year the Prime Minister set out five principles for deal with these problems, and will he look at what can real change in the EU: global competitiveness, democratic be done through the convention? legitimacy, powers flowing back to nation states, flexibility, and fairness between eurozone and non-eurozone. Those Mr Hague: My right hon. Friend makes an important are our priorities for reform. point. So far, we have agreed among the G8 nations and the 137 nations that have now signed the declaration Tim Loughton: Does my right hon. Friend acknowledge that I put forward that crimes of sexual violence in that the great majority of those reforms, and those set conflict are grave breaches of the Geneva conventions out in the Fresh Start project manifesto and others, can and their first protocol. That does not require us to be achieved without treaty change, and that when we change the Geneva conventions, but it does require us make it clear that the new reformed EU that most of us to get the whole world to recognise that those crimes are want to achieve is not just a case of promoting little- breaches of the Geneva conventions in any case and Englander interests, but rather trying to achieve a sustainable should be part of the rules of warfare that the whole outward-looking, globally competitive EU for the benefit world should accept for the future. of all 28 nations, we increasingly find that we are pushing at an open door? Treatment of Prisoners (United States) Mr Hague: I warmly welcome the useful contribution 8. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): What steps that Fresh Start has made to the debate on EU reform, his Department is taking to promote the humane and I think my hon. Friend puts it extremely well. treatment of prisoners held in the US; if he will make Indeed, many other countries are now also seeing that it representations on the fairness of the trial of the is time to move on to new arguments and a new perspective Miami Five to his US counterpart; and if he will make on the European Union. For instance, following their a statement. [901375] investigation into subsidiarity, the Dutch Government said it should be ensured that EU action is taken only The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth where necessary, with national action always pursued Office (Hugh Robertson): The British Government work where possible. through our network of US posts and with the EU to Ian Murray: Will the Foreign Secretary tell the House promote the humane treatment of prisoners held in the his top policy priority for renegotiation, which will have United States. The United States Government have most influence on him and whether he votes to stay in stated that the Miami five have had the same privileges or leave the EU? available to them as all other US prisoners. Mr Hague: I am not going to choose from among Grahame M. Morris: I am grateful to the Minister for the five priorities as they are all important. Global that reply, but will he indicate his response to widespread competitiveness, democratic legitimacy, powers flowing reports that US-based journalists were paid to write back to nation states, flexibility, and fairness for the prejudicial articles about the case before and during the non-eurozone are all crucial priorities and important to trial? In the interests of natural justice, will he make this country’s future in the European Union. representations to the US State Department on the issue? Gregg McClymont: Well, that was as clear as mud. Can I try again and ask the Foreign Secretary which, of Hugh Robertson: As the hon. Gentleman is no doubt the five abstract principles he referred to, is his top-level aware, this complicated case stretches back many years. policy that would persuade him to vote to stay in the If I am correct, the trial was in December 2001—more European Union? 771 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 772

Mr Hague: Unlike the Labour party we are capable Mr Hague: Absolutely. I can readily give that guarantee. of thinking of more than one thing at a time. There are We have clearly made progress on the nuclear issue, with five themes, and since I have set out five, asking for one the interim agreement we have concluded, and are stepping is not particularly helpful. We have also delivered more up bilateral relations, but that in no way inhibits us than one. We have already cut the EU budget for the from expressing our views on human rights. Iran continues first time, which Labour did not do, and we have to have one of the worst human rights records in the protected the rebate in full, which Labour failed to do. world for the treatment of journalists and minors, and We have put a stop to involvement in eurozone bail-outs, for the continued house arrest of key opposition leaders. which Labour never achieved, and we will go on sticking We will always feel free to raise those issues with Iranian up for Britain in Europe on more than one subject leaders. at a time. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): May I take Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Should the Foreign Secretary back to his favourite subject, a reasserting control of our national borders be a priority? nuclear weapons-free middle east? That has now become For example, does it make any more sense to have a a greater possibility with an interim agreement with single European work force than it does to have a single Iran. Will he update us on progress on a conference that European currency? would include Israel, which of course is the only country in the region that has declared nuclear weapons? Mr Hague: As I said earlier, I think reforming the Mr Hague: I do not have an update beyond the one concept of free movement on a sensible basis is the right I gave the hon. Gentleman a couple of weeks ago, but I way to think about that. Freedom of movement of will keep in touch with him as he is extremely assiduous workers in the European Union clearly has many benefits, on this matter. I agree with his assessment that the including for British people, but we also know that it is interim deal achieved with Iran on the nuclear issue susceptible to being abused. I therefore think the reforms reinforces the case for, and brings closer, a conference set out last week by my right hon. Friend the Prime for which he has long campaigned and which the United Minister are the right way to proceed. Kingdom would like to see.

Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): As James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): the Foreign Secretary reflects on the answers he has just Iran, through its proxy Hezbollah, continues to support given, he will be mindful, I am sure, of the European the brutal Assad regime. What leverage can the Foreign Scrutiny Committee’s conclusion on the justice and Secretary bring to bear on Iran’s role in Syria? Would home affairs block opt-out that, President Rouhani’s recent move towards peace not “there is little evidence of a genuine and significant repatriation have more credibility if he took a much more constructive of powers.” role in attempting to resolve the conflict in Syria? Should the House believe the European Scrutiny Committee Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Iran or not? continues to play a role in Syria that in our view perpetuates the conflict and contributes to the appalling Mr Hague: As I reflect on the answers I have just human rights abuses and oppression by the Assad regime. given, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall There have so far not been wider changes in Iran’s consider them to have been very good answers. European foreign policy, alongside the nuclear deal that we have Scrutiny Committee reports should always be taken concluded. We will of course press for those changes. extremely seriously. The Committee looks at issues in Our non-resident chargé d’affaires is today making his great detail, the Government respond to them in detail first visit to Iran and discussion on Syria will be included and many are debated in this House. on the agenda.

Iran Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Following on from the Foreign Secretary’s answer, what is his assessment of the prospect of Iran accepting the terms of the 30 June 11. Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Geneva final communiqué and participating in the Geneva What assessment he has made of recent developments II talks on 22 January? in the UK’s relations with Iran. [901378] Mr Hague: That is an important question, and one The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth that I put to the Iranian Foreign Minister. We think it Affairs (Mr William Hague): We are upgrading our should be possible for all nations to work on Syria bilateral relations on a step-by-step basis, including together, on the basis of the Geneva I communiqué. I through the appointment of non-resident chargés d’affaires, have said to the Iranians that if they were able to do direct contact between the Prime Minister and President that, then many countries, including the UK, would be Rouhani, and meetings between officials. Our dialogue more favourable to their inclusion in future international with Iran has covered bilateral relations, the nuclear discussions. While they have not ruled that out, they issue and Syria. have yet not committed to it. We will continue to press them to do so. Mr Leech: I thank the Foreign Secretary for that Middle East answer. While I welcome all efforts to improve relations with Iran to encourage peace and stability in the whole 13. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): What region, will he assure me that we will continue to take a assessment he has made of the effect of recent tough stance on the treatment of opposition groups announcements of settlement building on the middle and minorities by the Iranian authorities? east peace negotiations. [901380] 773 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 774

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Hugh Robertson: I am not sure that I understand the Office (Hugh Robertson): Recent settlement announcements distinction that the hon. Gentleman makes, because have had a detrimental impact on trust between the two the Government have repeatedly condemned Israel’s parties. During my recent visit to Israel and the Occupied announcements about expanded settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, I made clear our serious concerns Palestinian Territories. They are illegal under international about the announcements and our strong opposition to law and, as I have said, they undermine the possibility settlements. of a two-state solution. We are quite clear about that.

Duncan Hames: Last week, the United Nations Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership Secretary-General described Israeli settlement building in the Occupied Palestinian Territories as a cause of 15. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): What assessment great concern, saying that it risked the continuation of he has made of progress on the transatlantic trade and negotiations and must cease. I am glad that our Minister investment partnership talks. [901382] shares those concerns. Will he use his influence to shape European trade policies in a manner that is consistent The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): with our Government’s view on the illegal settlements? Negotiations are progressing well and are on track to meet our shared ambition of concluding them in 2015. Hugh Robertson: Yes, we will. As I suspect the hon. There will be a third round of talks next month, followed Gentleman knows, we welcome the EU guidelines on by an EU-US ministerial stock-take of progress to be the eligibility of Israel entities for EU funding and the held in early 2014 to set the direction of talks for next agreement reached last week that, on the other side, year. allows Israel to participate in Horizon 2020. We will absolutely make those representations. Mr Carmichael: I thank the Minister for that answer. Does he agree that these talks will, because of the enormity of both the European and the US economies Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): coming together, lead to a substantial growth in the Announcements of new settlement building must be global economy? Does he also think that this will be a unhelpful, but does the Minister recognise Israel’s good catalyst to a further improvement and enhancement will in continuing its programme of releasing more than of the single market, justifying Britain’s membership of 100 convicted prisoners, many of them terrorists who the European Union? carried out horrendous crimes, at the same time as the Palestinian national broadcasting authority perpetuates Mr Speaker: As Churchill used to say, one is enough. calls for violence against Israelis and Jews? Mr Lidington: I think that my hon. Friend’s hopes are Hugh Robertson: Yes. If the Palestinian broadcasting very well placed. This deal has the prospect of being authority is perpetuating calls for violence, that is totally transformative for the world economy, bringing perhaps unacceptable, and I would have no hesitation in condemning an additional £100 billion a year for the EU and £80 billion it. It is fair to say that it was made clear to me a couple a year for the United States over the longer term. That of weeks ago that the Palestinians believe that the would include £10 billion a year for this country. original agreement was that there would be no push towards representation in international bodies in exchange for prisoner release and that the settlements issue should Topical Questions be renegotiated at a later stage. T1. [901393] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): As the middle (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental east peace negotiations continue, are the Palestinians responsibilities. speaking with one voice? What is my right hon. Friend’s assessment of the relationship between Fatah and Hamas? The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): I am about to join NATO Foreign Ministers in Brussels this afternoon, where we Hugh Robertson: It is absolutely clear that those will discuss plans for the NATO summit in Wales in Palestinian entities involved in the peace process are 2014. We will also discuss our long-term commitment indeed speaking with one voice. It is clear, however—I to Afghanistan, building defence capabilities and work suspect that this is what lies behind my hon. Friend’s with non-NATO partners. question—that there is a very considerable difference between the Palestinian authorities engaged in those Mr Cunningham: I thank the Foreign Secretary for processes and the authorities in Gaza. I would call on that answer. If the Sri Lankan Government do not those authorities in Gaza to make it clear that they address war crimes and human rights by next year, will deplore terrorist activities of all sorts. the Foreign Secretary consider setting up, along with other countries, a war crimes tribunal? Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): When hon. Members raise the issue of, say, trade with illegal Mr Hague: As I mentioned a few minutes ago, we will settlements, the Government say that they do not want pursue this at the Human Rights Council in March. If to upset the peace talks, but 4,000 settlements have been the Sri Lankan Government have not set up an inquiry announced—800 last week—and those are destabilising of their own by then—so far, they have refused to do the peace talks. What are the Government going to do so—we would favour an international inquiry that is about that in order to support the peace talks? independent, credible and thorough. We will discuss 775 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 776 with other countries in the Human Rights Council how held the joint ministerial council in London, which all best to do that and what we propose to do in detail. We the overseas territories’leaders attended. All those territories will keep the House informed. which have significant financial services sectors have responded very positively to the Prime Minister’s G8 T5. [901398] Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) agenda of trade, tax and transparency and all of them (Con): The Prime Minister recently completed his first have committed not only to join multilateral exchange visit to India in three years. Representing as I do a of tax information, but to consult on both having Wolverhampton constituency, I have a significant central registries of beneficial ownership and on making Punjabi diaspora community in my constituency. May that information public. I highlight to the Front Bench the real issue of drug misuse in Punjab, particularly among young men? T7. [901400] Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): Given Britain’s expertise in rehabilitation, may I urge While warmly welcoming the interim agreement on the Foreign Office, along with the Department for Iran, does the Foreign Secretary agree that it will be International Development, to provide British crucial for Iran to honour both the spirit and the letter expertise in this area? of its commitments, and is not one of the most important obligations its promise either to convert Mr Hague: We will take a look at that. The Prime back or to dilute that part of the uranium enrichment Minister’s visit to India was certainly very successful. up to 20%, because there is little or no relevance for a We have greatly strengthened our relations with India 20% enrichment other than for potential military with the Prime Minister’s three visits and all the other purposes? work we have done. My hon. Friend draws attention to an important issue, and I undertake to him that we will Mr Hague: I absolutely agree. My right hon. and look at it in more detail. learned Friend is right. It is a key part of the interim agreement we have reached with Iran that the whole Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire stock of the uranium enriched to near 20% must be South) (Lab): Can the Foreign Secretary offer the House converted or diluted. In the coming weeks we will form an explanation as to why it has taken the Prime Minister a joint commission with Iran that will oversee the three years to make his second visit to China this week? implementation of this agreement, and the implementation of it in detail—as well as in spirit, as he rightly says—will Mr Hague: I think the right hon. Gentleman could be crucial to its success and to our ability to negotiate a have phrased the question in a slightly more positive comprehensive and final agreement with Iran. way, for instance by asking why it is that this Prime Minister has taken the biggest ever trade delegation to T3. [901395] Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Many China or why we now have more dialogue between the of my constituents are very keen to see justice, UK and China than ever before, more people-to-people self-determination, peace and prosperity for the people exchanges, more students studying in each other’s countries of Kashmir. Will the Foreign Secretary update the than ever before, and more trade and investment than House on the Government’s work to encourage talks ever before. Clearly the Prime Minister gets extremely between Pakistan and India? Will he come to Dudley good value out of the visits he makes. or hold a meeting in London to meet my constituents, who have got a great deal of knowledge and expertise T6. [901399] Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) on how Britain could help in this area? (Con): Given Iran’s influence in the region, what prospect is there for talks other than nuclear with Iran Mr Hague: I undertake that one of my ministerial on areas of mutual benefit and interest, including colleagues will meet the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. regional security? Of course, these are important and long-running issues, and I want to pay tribute to the Governments of Pakistan Mr Hague: We are having talks today, as I mentioned and India for the recent work they have done together a moment ago. Our new non-resident chargé is visiting to improve their relations. The Prime Minister has Tehran today. This is the first visit by a British diplomat discussed this in India, and I have discussed it recently in more than two years, since the evacuation of our with Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif of Pakistan. It is not embassy, and those talks will be about various aspects for Britain to mediate or to try to determine the outcome, of our bilateral relations. Of course that can include but we do want those two countries to enjoy the very regional affairs and we look forward to discussing those good relations that would represent a great breakthrough more with Iran over the coming months. in world affairs.

T2. [901394] Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): T8. [901401] Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): Following the Prime Minister’s recent announcement Given the Prime Minister’s current visit to China, does that the UK will establish a public registry of the the Secretary of State share the US Vice-President’s beneficial ownership of companies, will the Foreign deep concern about the new air defence identification Secretary tell the House what the Government will be zone that China has unilaterally set up over the doing to ensure that the UK Crown dependencies and Senkaku-Diaoyu islands? overseas territories also establish registries, and what action the Government will take if they fail to do so? Mr Hague: In common with the rest of the European Union, we note with concern that China has established The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign an air defence identification zone in the East China sea. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): The hon. The UK, as my hon. Friend knows, does not take a Gentleman hopefully will be aware that last week we position on the underlying sovereignty issues, but we 777 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 778 urge all parties to work together to reduce tensions and Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) to resolve issues peacefully, in line with international (LD): Will Ministers take up with the Government of law. Bangladesh the increasing concerns of Bangladeshis in this country, and others, about the intimidation, threats, T4. [901397] Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): A year ago, violence and persecution of minorities, both political 13-year old Mahmoud Khousa was targeted and killed and faith? by a drone-fired missile in the streets of Gaza as he walked to the shops to buy a pencil for his sister. Hugh Robertson: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman According to Amnesty International, it would have that the answer to that is yes. As he knows, the next been clear to the Israeli military that Mahmoud was a round of Bangladeshi parliamentary elections is scheduled child. Does the Minister agree that it is a travesty that, for 5 January, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign 12 months later, nobody has been held to account for Secretary spoke to the Foreign Minister of Bangladesh Mahmoud’s death? Will the Minister use his influence in November to find an agreeable way to run those to achieve justice for Mahmoud and his family and to elections—in a fair, free and satisfactory fashion. send a strong message that nobody should be allowed to target innocent 13-year-old children? Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): On 11 October, a constituent of mine, Mr Nick Dunn, a 27-year-old The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth former Paratrooper who served on the front line in Office (Hugh Robertson): I am sure there is total agreement Afghanistan and Iraq, was taken from the MV Seaman right across the House that there is absolutely no excuse Guard Ohio ship off the coast of Tamil Nadu. Five for the targeting of children in any form of military other UK residents were also taken, including a constituent strike. I am not entirely sure how a drone could be that of the Secretary of State. What discussions has the precisely targeted, but the hon. Lady absolutely has my Secretary of State had with the Indian authorities, and undertaking that we regard this as a matter of the what are his Government doing to secure the immediate utmost seriousness, and we will take it up in no uncertain release of Mr Dunn and his colleagues from the Puzhal terms with the Israeli authorities. prison, in Chennai?

T9. [901402] Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): In the Mr Hague: This is an important consular case, which light of the Prime Minister’s timely and very welcome the Prime Minister has raised with the Prime Minister visit to China, will the Foreign Secretary tell the House of India and which I have raised with the Indian Foreign what he is doing to ensure that British diplomats speak Minister, and we intend to have discussions in the Chinese and other languages vital to our success, and coming weeks with the chief secretary of Tamil Nadu to reverse the decline in language teaching in the state, which is where the men are being held. Consular Foreign Office that he sadly inherited? officials have been providing assistance since the men were detained, and liaising with the Estonian and Ukrainian Mr Hague: This is a very important issue. Almost embassies, as nationals of those countries are also involved. unbelievably, the last Government closed the Foreign We have visited the men four times to confirm their Office language school. This year, I reopened it. It has welfare, and we are pressing the company they work for 40 classrooms and is able to teach civil servants from to fulfil its obligations and to ensure that the men have across the rest of Government as well. We have sharply good lawyers. increased the number of posts that require the speaking of Mandarin, of Arabic, and of Latin American Spanish Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What is the and Portuguese. The decline in diplomatic languages probability that the Foreign Secretary will vote to leave that the last Government presided over is now well and the European Union in 2017? truly being reversed. Mr Hague: The probability is that we will be working Several hon. Members rose— for all the objectives that I stated earlier so that, by achieving them, we will be able to recommend that Mr Speaker: Extreme brevity is now required. I call Britain stay in the European Union—but we will have Debbie Abrahams. to achieve them.

Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Amnesty (Lab): We welcome the prospect of the EU-US trade International is warning that Gaza’s 1.7 million residents deal, but I would grateful if the Minister confirmed that are facing a public health catastrophe, with chronic fuel the NHS will be exempt from the trade negotiations, in and power shortages. The Foreign Secretary often says exactly the same way that Canada achieved such exemption that he is repeatedly urging the Israeli authorities to in its EU trade negotiations. I have had confusing ease their restrictions on Gaza, but nothing ever happens correspondence with the Government on this. on the ground. Will he now at least call for a formal assessment of whether the human rights conditions in The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): We article 2 of the EU-Israel association agreement are are seeking a specific reference in the investment chapter being met? of the transatlantic trade and investment partnership to enable the British Government to continue to legislate Hugh Robertson: The British Government have made in the public interest where necessary, but we also want their views on this matter abundantly clear; I draw the a deal that allows our pharmaceutical and medical hon. Lady’s attention to the statement that we released devices sectors to compete for more business in the recently on the situation in Gaza. She has suggested United States. that the situation is dire, but she will also be aware that 779 Oral Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Oral Answers 780 part of the problem was the creation of the tunnels, Mr Hague: It is important to be able to raise a wide which have now been blocked up. We are urging the range of issues with China, as we do. I had an excellent Israeli authorities to facilitate free trade and to alleviate bilateral meeting with the Chinese Foreign Minister in the appalling humanitarian situation in Gaza. Geneva 10 days ago, at which we discussed the full range of our co-operation and the Prime Minister’s Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Further to my hon. visit, as well as issues such as the importance of dialogue Friend’s answer to that question, is he aware that millions on human rights. It is a good thing for both countries of tonnes of aid from Israel go into Gaza every week? Is to boost trade and investment as we are doing, and we he also aware that it would be perfectly possible for the are now taking that to new levels with China, which will Egyptians to open their border to let goods into Gaza? greatly help the prosperity of the British people.

Hugh Robertson: Indeed I am perfectly aware of that; Mr Speaker: Last but not least, Anas Sarwar. the issue was discussed with the Egyptian Deputy Prime Minister only yesterday. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): May I repeat the call from my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): Last week, Heeley (Meg Munn) for the Foreign Secretary to keep at a meeting in this building, a representative of the the spotlight trained on Syria? People believe that the United Nations Commission on Human Rights described war is over because Assad has agreed to downgrade his the situation in Syria as probably the worst refugee weapons programme, but the conflict and destruction crisis since the second world war. Given the fact that are continuing and people are continuing to die. Can we nobody seems to want to talk about it, including those demonstrate not only that the UK believes in minimising in this Chamber, will the Government redouble their the use of weapons but that we are on the side of the efforts to work with the international community to ordinary people who are suffering in that crisis? bring to an end the conflict that is devastating that region? Mr Hague: This is a very important point. The hon. Gentleman will know that the UK, through the Department Mr Hague: Yes. Although the issue has not been for International Development, has so far allocated asked about in questions today, it is actually our top £500 million. That is the biggest contribution we have foreign policy priority. It has now been agreed that a ever made to a single humanitarian crisis, and it requires Geneva II peace conference will be convened on 22 January, it. It warrants it because it is, as we heard a moment and we are encouraging all concerned to attend. In the ago, the biggest humanitarian crisis for decades. So we meantime, the United Kingdom continues to be one of will do that and we will do more in the future, as well as the biggest contributors to the humanitarian relief effort trying to make sure that the political process of the and to helping to ensure the stability of neighbouring Geneva peace conference has a chance of success and countries. We will also strongly support the donor assisting with the dismantling of the regime’s chemical conference being held in Kuwait next month to raise weapons. All three of those tracks of our work on Syria more international funds to assist the plight of the are very important. Syrian people. Several hon. Members rose— Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Recent developments in the East China sea are adding to many Mr Speaker: Order. I am genuinely sorry to disappoint other concerns about China, including those being expressed remaining colleagues. I did try to widen the envelope, about cyber-attacks, Sri Lanka, Syria, climate change but the capacity to do so is not infinite. Just before we and intellectual property rights. Does not this suggest come to the statement by the Secretary of State for that the west needs a co-ordinated, holistic policy towards Education, I must tell the House that I have a short China, rather than just a scramble for trade and investment? statement to make. 781 3 DECEMBER 2013 782

Speaker’s Statement PISA Results

12.35 pm 12.36 pm Mr Speaker: Yesterday, during the Secretary of State The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): for Scotland’s statement a number of right hon. and Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for your words hon. Members expressed a wish for a book of condolence about the tragedy in Glasgow. Of course, the whole for the victims of the helicopter crash in Glasgow to be House wishes to associate itself with your expressions opened. I have arranged for that to be done. A book of of concern and condolence. condolence is available now for signature in the Library, With your permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to and it will remain available until the House rises for the make a statement about the PISA—programme for Christmas recess. In the new year, I hope to be able to international student assessment—league tables of present it to the city of Glasgow. I hope that that is educational performance published today by the OECD. helpful. Before I go into the detail of what the league tables show about the common features of high-performing school systems, may I take a moment, as I try to in every public statement I make, to thank our teachers for their hard work, dedication and idealism. Whatever conclusions we draw about what needs to change, I hope that we in this House can agree that we are fortunate to have the best generation of young teachers ever in our schools. The data show that the new recruits now entering the classroom are better qualified than ever before. I would like in particular to thank those head teachers who are, through the new school direct programme of teacher training, recruiting more superb new graduates to teach in our state schools. Although the quality of our teachers is improving, today’s league tables sadly show that that is not enough. When people ask why—if teachers are better than ever— we need to press ahead with further reform to the system, today’s results make the case more eloquently than any number of speeches. Since the 1990s, our performance in these league tables has been, at best, stagnant, and, at worst, declining. In the latest results, we are 21st in the world for science, 23rd for reading and 26th for mathematics. For all the well-intentioned efforts of past Governments, we are still falling further behind the best-performing school systems in the world. In Shanghai and Singapore, South Korea and Hong Kong—indeed even in Taiwan and Vietnam—children are learning more and performing better with every year that passes, leaving our children behind in the global race. That matters because business is more mobile than ever, and employers are more determined than ever to seek out the best-qualified workers. Global economic pressures, far from leading to a race to the bottom, are driving all nations to pursue educational excellence more energetically than ever before. Today’s league tables show that nations that have had the courage radically to reform their education systems, such as Germany and Poland, have significantly improved their performance and their children’s opportunities. No single intervention, or indeed single nation, has all the answers to our education challenges. But if we look at all the high-performing and fast-improving education systems, we find that certain common features recur: there is an emphasis on social justice and helping every child to succeed; there is a commitment to an aspirational academic curriculum for all students; there is a high level of autonomy from bureaucracy for head teachers; there is a rigorous system of accountability for performance; and head teachers have the critical power to hire whom they want, remove underperformers and reward the best with the recognition they deserve. Those principles have driven this coalition’s education reforms since 2010. 783 PISA Results3 DECEMBER 2013 PISA Results 784

The first reform imperative, of course, is securing recruited more outstanding serving teachers to inspect greater social justice. It is notable that all the high- schools and demanded that underperforming schools performing jurisdictions set demanding standards for improve far faster. The old league table system relied every child, whatever their background. Germany, in too much on a narrow measurement of C passes at particular, has improved its standing in these league GCSE, which generated the wrong incentives and wrote tables by doing more to promote greater equity to off too many children. We have changed league tables ensure that more children from poorer backgrounds to ensure that every child’s progress is rewarded. We catch up with their peers. The good news from the PISA have also ensured that children are not entered early, or research is that in England we have one of the most multiple times, for GCSEs simply to influence league progressive and socially just systems of education funding tables. I hope today that those on the Opposition Front in the world, but we in the coalition Government believe Bench will endorse those changes and join us in demanding that we must go further to help the most disadvantaged greater rigour and higher standards from all schools. children. That is why we have made funding even more The fifth pillar of reform is freedom for heads to progressive with the pupil premium. We have extended recruit and reward the best. Shanghai, the world’s best- free pre-school education to the most disadvantaged performing education system, has a rigorous system of two-year-olds and changed how we hold schools performance-related pay. We have given head teachers accountable so they have to give even greater attention the same freedoms here. I hope today that we can have a to the performance of poor children. I hope that today clear commitment from all parts of the House to support the Opposition will acknowledge those steps forward those brave and principled heads who want to pay the and give their support to our accountability reforms. best teachers more. The second imperative is a more aspirational curriculum. The programme of reform that we have set out draws In successful Asian nations, all students are introduced on what happens in the best school systems—identified to more stretching maths content at an earlier age than today by the OECD—because we want nothing but the has been the case here. In the fastest-improving European best for our children. Unless we can provide them with nation, Poland, every child now follows a core academic a school system that is one of the best in the world, we curriculum to the age of 16. Our new national curriculum will not give them the opportunities that they need to is explicitly more demanding, especially in maths, and it flourish and succeed. That is why it is so important that is modelled on the approach of high-performing Asian we have a unified national commitment to excellence in nations such as Singapore. The mathematical content is all our schools and for all our pupils. I commend this matched by a new level of ambition in technology, with statement to the House. the introduction of programming and coding on the national curriculum for the first time. In our drive to eliminate illiteracy, we have introduced 12.43 pm a screening check at age six to make sure that every Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): I thank child is reading fluently. Our introduction of the English the Secretary of State both for making Government baccalaureate, which is awarded to students who secure time available to discuss this important topic and for his GCSE passes in English, maths, the sciences, languages statement, which I received 11 minutes ago. I am and history or geography, matches Poland’s ambition disappointed that he has adopted—both today and in by embedding an expectation of academic excellence various media outings—such a partisan approach to for every 16-year-old. I hope today that those on the the data from PISA. Rather than throwing chum to his Labour Front Bench will confirm their support for our Back Benchers, he should concentrate on the lessons we new curriculum, the phonics screening check and the can learn from today’s important study. English baccalaureate. Our children deserve to have those higher standards adopted universally. The Secretary of State cannot have it both ways. If, as he said in The Daily Telegraph, the Labour party should The third reform imperative is greater autonomy for take its share of the responsibility for these results, head teachers. There is a direct correlation in the league would he not agree that it should also take responsibility tables between freedom for heads and improved results. for, in his words, delivering the That is why we have dramatically increased the number of academies and free schools, and given heads more “best generation of teachers this country has ever seen”? control over teacher training, continuous professional It is clear that for all the hard work of our head development and the improvement of underperforming teachers, teachers, parents and learning support staff, schools. The school direct programme, by giving heads whom the Secretary of State rightly praised, we have a control of teacher recruitment, has improved the quality long way to go in English, maths and science to match of new teachers. The creation of more than 300 teaching our global competitors. These findings are a wake-up schools has put our most outstanding heads in charge call for our schools. The PISA data reveal the continuing of helping existing teachers to do even better. The strength of east Asian countries and although there are academies programme has allowed great heads, such as important cultural differences that we should seek to those in the Harris and Ark chains, to take over understand, there are also pointers to reform in our underperforming schools such as the Downhills primary schools system. So, can the Secretary of State confirm in Tottenham. I hope today that those on the Opposition that part of the success of Singapore and Shanghai is Front Bench will signal their support for these reforms down to the high quality of teachers in the classroom? and show that they, like us, trust our outstanding heads In Shanghai, all teachers have a teaching qualification to drive improvement. and undergo 240 hours of professional development The fourth pillar of reform is accountability. Those within the first five years of teaching. Under the Secretary systems that have autonomy without accountability of State’s deregulation agenda, the South Leeds academy often underperform. Accountability has to be intelligent, can advertise for an “unqualified maths teacher” with which is why we have sharpened Ofsted inspections, just four GCSEs. We have seen a 141% increase in 785 PISA Results3 DECEMBER 2013 PISA Results 786

[Tristram Hunt] from him on how we would improve accountability. There was no indication as to whether or not he supports, unqualified teachers in free schools and academies under as he has indicated in the past, our English baccalaureate this Government, so will he join the Schools Minister measure. There was no indication from him, as there and me in working to secure qualified teachers in our has been in the past, as to whether or not he supports classrooms? A-level reform, and there was no indication, as there Secondly, can the Secretary of State confirm that has been in the past, that he believes in a rigorous part of the east Asian education system is that schools academic curriculum for all. The terrible truth about work together, collaborate and challenge each other? the situation that we face in our schools is that Labour Under their system, no school is left an island. Will he does not have a strong record to defend, and it does not now abandon his aggressive discredited free-market reforms have a strong policy to advance. That is why the coalition to schools and follow the Labour party’s lead in developing Government are committed to reform, and that is why, I the kind of middle tier that brings schools together to am afraid, the hon. Gentleman must do better. work with, challenge and collaborate with one another? In 2008, the Secretary of State informed the Daily Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Mail, his journal of choice: Today’s figures are extremely sobering. They are indictment “We have seen the future in Sweden and it works.” of the previous Government’s education policy. There was a massive investment in education, a huge effort Will he confirm today that that is no longer the case? In was put into education, and we went nowhere. We need fact, no other country has fallen as abruptly as Sweden to hear from the Secretary of State how his reforms will in maths over a 10-year period. Across all three measures— ensure that in future years—probably not so early as reading, maths and science—since 2009 Sweden has three years from now, but six years from now—we see performed very poorly indeed. Many in Sweden regard the change that we require. In particular, will he tell us the ideological programme of unqualified teachers and what he can do to promote maths and science for girls, unregulated free schools as responsible for the drop in because we cannot have so many females left behind in standards. The lesson from PISA is clear: we need this country? freedom with accountability, autonomy with minimum standards, or else we end up with the chaos of the Secretary of State’s Al-Madinah school. Michael Gove: I thank the Chairman of the Select Committee on Education for his wise words. He is Finally, does the Secretary of State believe that a absolutely right—there was a significant increase in culture of zero tolerance for low expectations in other investment and, as I mentioned in my statement, we education systems produces high results across the board have one of the most socially just system of education and that no child should be left behind? Will he use this funding in the developed world. However, we did not opportunity to join the Deputy Prime Minister and me move forward as we should have done. My hon. Friend in condemning the unpleasant whiff of eugenics from asks, of course, when we will see the fruits of our reform the Mayor of London and instead use the opportunity programme. As Andreas Schleicher of the OECD asked provided by the PISA data to pursue excellence for all, yesterday: is it too early on the basis of these results to academic and vocational, in all our schools? judge the coalition reforms? Absolutely, we could not possibly judge the coalition Government on these results, Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman he said. We are “moving from”ideas “to implementation”, for his comments. He taxed me for demonstrating and 2015 would be the very earliest. partisanship and indulging in personal attacks. I am glad that we had the opportunity to witness four minutes My hon. Friend makes the vital point that we need to entirely free from those sins. do more to promote mathematics and science. The First, let me turn to the whole question of qualified English baccalaureate does that. The increased emphasis teachers. It is the case that there are now fewer unqualified in many academies and free schools that have opened teachers in our schools than under Labour. In 2009, under the Government does that, but there is still more there were 17,400 unqualified teachers, in 2010, just that we can do, and I shall meet representatives from before Labour left office, there were 17,800 and there higher education and our best schools just before Christmas are now only 14,800, a significant reduction. Indeed, to see what we can do to encourage more girls to do those teachers who are now joining the profession are even better in mathematics and science. better qualified than ever before. In 2009, just before the Labour party lost office, only 61% of teachers had a Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and 2:1 or better as their undergraduate degree. Under the Hillsborough) (Lab): I think that our young people coalition Government, the figure is 74%, which is a deserve slightly better than the regrettable remarks from clear improvement that has been driven by the changes the Chair of the Select Committee. that we have introduced. It has been reinforced by the In the four years in which I was privileged to serve as introduction of the school direct system, which I invited Education and Employment Secretary, I tried to persuade the hon. Gentleman to applaud and welcome—he declined the world that it would take time before change achieved to do so—and which has secured even more top graduates results. The world decided that it would hold me to with a 2:1 or better, including a first, in our schools. account for the measures that I took. What makes the The hon. Gentleman mentioned Sweden. Unfortunately, Secretary of State, after three years and seven months, it is the case that in Sweden results have slid, but as I think that he should not be held to account? said earlier, not only do we need to grant greater autonomy, as has been done for school leaders in Singapore, Hong Michael Gove: I absolutely do believe that we should Kong, South Korea and elsewhere, but we need a more be held to account for the changes that we have rigorous system of accountability. We heard nothing made, which is why I look forward to Ofsted’s report in 787 PISA Results3 DECEMBER 2013 PISA Results 788 a fortnight. It will report on what has changed in the attempt to tackle underperformance, but I fear that course of the past year, and it will reflect, I believe, they will remain silent, and will continue to have their improved teaching standards in all our schools. Earlier, strings pulled by their union paymasters. I ran through some figures—I know that the right hon. Gentleman took note of them—that recorded the increased Several hon. Members rose— number of highly qualified teachers in our classrooms. As I mentioned, Andreas Schleicher pointed out that it Mr Speaker: Order. Nearly 50 colleagues are seeking would take time for the changes that we have introduced to catch my eye, but I fear that many might end up to take effect. Just as members of the Opposition Front disappointed. If I am to have any chance of accommodating Bench want to take account of PISA and the OECD, so the level of interest, what is needed is a question without they should take account of Andreas Schleicher’s comments, preamble—that is to say, a request for information, which seem to me to be fair and proportionate, and all which might be thought to be the meaning of the word of us should draw the right lessons from them. “question”.

Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): Does the Secretary (Con): I refer to my interests in the register. of State accept that instead of always looking abroad My right hon. Friend is right to conclude that Britain’s for good practice he might come to my constituency, poor standing in the PISA rankings is a reflection of where the quality of education is superbly high, as it is Labour’s education policies and its supine relationship in neighbouring constituencies in Hampshire, and he with the teacher unions. Does he share my view that could look at how it achieves the excellence from which university education faculties, which have trained my daughter benefited? generations of teachers, should take their share of blame? Should not the Institute of Education and Canterbury Michael Gove: I visited Eastleigh several times in the Christ Church, two of the biggest teacher training past 18 months, and I learned a great deal. It is the case, institutions, be held to account, not only for today’s as the hon. Gentleman points out, that in Hampshire poor figures but for the country’s long tail of there are many excellent schools and sixth-form colleges. underachievement? Education academics are quick to It is absolutely right that we should applaud success and condemn much-needed reform, but there is always a excellence in this country as well as abroad. deafening silence from them on days— Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): Last week, I met Swedish journalists on behalf of the Education Mr Speaker: Order. I am extremely grateful to the Committee, and it is true that they are really worried hon. Gentleman. We must have short questions and about their dramatic fall down the international league short answers. tables, which they partly blamed on the free school experiment. They told me that their equivalent of Ofsted Michael Gove: Not for the first time, and I am sure had closed 20 such schools since September. Does the not for the last time, my hon. Friend hits several nails Secretary of State not agree that it is time to learn from squarely on the head. such mistakes and puts schools and pupils before ideology?

Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): Michael Gove: It is absolutely the case that there is a Twenty years ago, the greatest underachievement in difference between Sweden and this country. Sweden schools in this country was in London and other big did not have an equivalent of Ofsted until 2008, and it cities, which is why the Labour Government introduced does not have the external system of accountability programmes such as the London Challenge and Teach through testing that we have had in this country.Autonomy First, which the Secretary of State has praised. Andreas works, but only with strong accountability, which is why Schleicher has talked about autonomy, but he has also it is important, and why I hope the hon. Lady will talked about collaboration. What have the Government encourage her Front Benchers to support the English done to implement Ofsted’s report from June, “Unseen baccalaureate. children”, which called for new sub-regional challenges modelled on Labour’s London Challenge? Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): The Secretary of State said that a common feature of high-performing Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman makes a number schools is their ability to remove underperforming of good points. It is the case that the London Challenge teachers, but between 2001 and 2011 only 17 of England’s was a success. Other systems of sub-regional collaboration 400,000 teachers were judged to be incompetent by the introduced under the previous Government were less General Teaching Council. What can he do to fight conspicuously successful. If we look at the ingredients trade union protectionism of failing teachers, and root of the London Challenge, we find that they were primarily out all the dead wood? growth in the number of academies, greater autonomy for head teachers and a rigorous approach—[Interruption] Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We —and a greater and more rigorous approach to have introduced a system of more effective performance underperformance in schools that needed new leadership. management and performance-related pay. I hope that Through the academies programme, we have ensured the Labour party will support it in the interests of all that schools across the country that have underperformed students. are under new leadership. It has been called the “forced academies programme”, and there has been no support Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does for it from those on the Labour Front Bench. I hope the Secretary of State agree that it is important that the that now they will show their support for this rigorous message goes out that the reaction to the PISA results is 789 PISA Results3 DECEMBER 2013 PISA Results 790

[Mr Barry Sheerman] Michael Gove: I think that we can learn a great deal from Singapore’s education system, not least the way in positive? The teaching profession and the people who which its principals have great flexibility over whom work in and run our schools must know that we have a they employ and how they reward them. As for working good education system. It is not perfect, but we undervalue harder, I think that we have to acknowledge that we all the work that many of our teachers do. At the moment, must work harder to ensure that our children have more however, they do not do enough for the 30% lowest- opportunities in future. We need to explore ways of achieving students. That is where we should concentrate extending the school day and ensuring that there are our activity. greater opportunities for all our children to learn more.

Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): We have inherited right. a situation in which the best indicator of a child’s future educational achievement is the parents’ income. Does Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): A head teacher the Secretary of State agree that until the attainment recently told me, “The Secretary of State is a dreadful gap is narrowed, the UK will be unable to make significant person, and absolutely hopeless, but his policies are leaps up the international league tables? absolutely right and I’m implementing them with gusto.” Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Is it better to be right rather than liked? One of the weaknesses in our education system, as the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) pointed Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is both right and liked out, and indeed in our whole nation, is the fact that we universally across the House. If I agree with him, I hope labour under the problem of having a stratified and that I am right, but I can never aspire to be as liked or as segregated schools system, and it is more stratified and popular as he is. segregated than most. One of the things that is helping to tackle that, of course, is the investment in the pupil Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): When premium, championed by the Deputy Prime Minister did the Secretary of State last meet the Minister for and the Minister for Schools, which we are happy to Education in Northern Ireland to discuss educational implement as part of a coalition Government. performance with an emphasis on the fairer distribution of financial resources? Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): In 2010 the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) Michael Gove: I had the opportunity to talk to Minister promised to learn from the best education systems in O’Dowd several months ago, when I also talked to the the world with the most highly qualified teachers, so Welsh Education Minister. It is striking that Northern why have the Government removed the requirement Ireland is broadly at the same level as England in these that teachers be qualified to degree level? results but Labour-run Wales is significantly behind. I think that we can draw the appropriate conclusions Michael Gove: As I pointed out in response to the about that. I hope to visit Northern Ireland in the new right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and year to talk to head teachers and others about how we Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), there are now more highly can work together to ensure that our examination systems qualified teachers than ever before in all our schools. I are aligned in a way that promotes social mobility hope that the hon. Lady will join me in championing across all these islands in the interests of a truly united the reforms we have made, which have brought hope to kingdom. her constituents, who I am afraid suffered in the past as a result of a failed, leftist, National Union of Teachers Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): I thank my orthodoxy, which I hope that she, like me, as a Blairite, right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for yesterday will now vigorously condemn. meeting Kate Forbes, an excellent young English teacher from Bourne academy in my constituency, to discuss Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): Is it any her ideas for the implementation of grammar in the wonder that Britain’s youth have not been prepared for secondary system. It is people like Miss Forbes, who the global race? Under Labour, one in every three share his determination that the child should come first, pupils left primary school unable to read and write, the whom we should be listening to in implementing his number of pupils sitting hard-core subjects halved and reforms. our employers totally lost faith in our exam system. Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a good point. Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It was One of the things that has changed under this Government a pleasure to meet the teacher from his constituency, is that more students than ever before are studying who is wholly committed to implementing the reforms physics, chemistry and biology, and we have seen a we have introduced, utterly committed to raising standards revival in the number studying modern foreign languages for every child and, to my mind, representative and and an increase in the number studying geography and emblematic of the idealistic and supremely talented history at GCSE. Those are the subjects that give students young people now entering teaching. the chance to succeed and that advance social mobility. I hope that Opposition Front Benchers will at last Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Does the endorse the English baccalaureate, which has driven Secretary of State think that the Singapore authorities those changes. would employ untrained teachers, and does he back their system, which sees children put under immense Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): pressure to work from dawn to dusk and beyond to May I remind the Secretary of State that in the mid-1990s compete with their peers and with us? some schools in my constituency had roofs that leaked 791 PISA Results3 DECEMBER 2013 PISA Results 792 and fewer than 10% of their pupils got five or more Michael Gove: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. The good GCSEs? Will he acknowledge that at the core of chief inspector agrees with her, as do I. We are changing the many improvements that have taken place since has the way schools are measured in league tables in order been a teaching work force who are both highly motivated to ensure that it is progress that matters, rather than and properly qualified? simply raw attainment. Ofsted inspections are becoming more sophisticated, with more serving senior leaders Michael Gove: I have enormous respect for the right conducting them. hon. Gentleman. He is right that one of the things we need to do is ensure that there is proper investment in Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): We see in these every part of our schools system. That is why it is so results that in the highest-performing countries children important that the PISA report confirms that we have from disadvantaged backgrounds are more than twice one of the most socially just systems of education as likely as similarly disadvantaged children in the UK funding. It is also critically important that we have to make it into the world’s top quartile in mathematics. reduced the cost of new school building so that we can Does that not demonstrate how necessary it is that we spread our investment more equitably. He is right about have the additional pupil premium money, ensuring more highly qualified teachers, which is why it is good that every child has a decent chance to get on in life? that there are more graduates with better degrees than ever before in our schools. Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The investment in the pupil premium, the investment in Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The Secretary additional pre-school education for the most disadvantaged of State has rightly highlighted the need for exam two-year-olds and a concentration on helping students reform, but when I taught year 1 it was obvious that too who are falling behind in year 6 at the end of primary many children turned up ill-prepared and ill-equipped school to catch up—all policies championed by the for school compared with their peers, so early intervention Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister for Schools—are is really important. I urge him to look closely at the integral to advancing social mobility. imagination library model we have set up in North Lincolnshire, which now provides free books every month to 3,500 children in the area. Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): One of the most serious issues is the disparity between Michael Gove: It sounds like a fantastic initiative, and the achievement of boys and girls in maths and science, it reinforces the additional investment we have made in which is the result of deep-seated cultural and educational the early years. bias within the system. One of the ways of addressing that is to engage businesses, particularly manufacturing, Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Is there any in schools and to have schools assessed on their ability connection between the fact that the UK is struggling in to get students into vocational as well as academic international league tables when trying to develop a occupations. Unfortunately, the Government have not globally competitive work force and the fact that there been prepared to take up the Department for Business, are unqualified maths teachers in our schools? Innovation and Skills recommendation on that. Will the Secretary of State look at it again? Michael Gove: We have more highly qualified teachers in our schools than ever before, particularly in mathematics. Michael Gove: I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is vital that we build on and improve the links Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): Does my between business and schools. The university technical right hon. Friend remember visiting Falmer high school colleges programme is designed to do just that, but in my constituency, which has now been replaced by the there is much more we can do. I have been talking excellent Brighton Aldridge community academy, which recently to Sir Charlie Mayfield, of the UK Commission is driving up standards and improving chances for for Employment and Skills, to see how we can go even young people who really need it? further. Of course, it is vital that we all embed the reforms set out in Alison Wolf’s report, which are Michael Gove: I do remember visiting that school and designed to improve technical education and ensure applaud my hon. Friend’s commitment to advancing that all education is more relevant to the work of educational achievement for all students. Let me take business. this opportunity to thank Rod Aldridge and all the sponsors behind the academies programme, who have Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) done so much to tackle underperformance in our weaker (Con): Last week I attended an inspirational awards schools. They are heroes. evening at Hall Mead academy in my constituency, where the pupils are high achievers not only in academic Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): The subjects but in sport, drama, music, art and social and Secretary of State has said that accountability should interpersonal skills. Does that not demonstrate how the be intelligent, but for too many schools in my constituency Secretary of State’s reforms have given head teachers the Ofsted inspections over the past decade have not the freedom to enable their standards to rise continuously? felt intelligent. They have failed to take account of the progress that has been made and the ability of the schools Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. to progress further, focusing instead on an attainment There is no tension between academic excellence and a level. Is it not now time to reform the process so that rich range of extra-curricular activities; in fact, they real improvement can be supported and encouraged reinforce each other, as the best schools recognise, including further? the academy in her constituency. 793 PISA Results3 DECEMBER 2013 PISA Results 794

Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Between 1998 and 2010 Friend taking to ensure that every school has an outstanding in constituencies like mine, there were significant head teacher? Will he consider introducing a system improvements in educational attainment and the quality that allows excellent teachers who have been promoted of school buildings and equipment, due partly to the to head teacher to move back down if they do not have hard work of teachers, the support of the local authority, the necessary skills to be an excellent head? and the core funding that was put in. What is the Secretary of State doing to promote collaboration between Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a good point. these excellent and outstanding schools and head teachers It is not necessary to be an outstanding head teacher to and other schools, and what happened to the promise of be an outstanding contributor to excellence in one or in £35 million in 2010? many schools. It is important that we recognise the different ways in which teachers can be celebrated. Our Michael Gove: We are doing that through academy system of performance-related pay will ensure that people chains, multi-academy trusts, and the establishment of who are outstanding and want to lead and to exemplify teaching school alliances. There are now more than 300 great teaching will be rewarded appropriately. I therefore teaching schools, which have head teachers who are hope that Labour Members will support it. working with underperforming schools to provide continuous professional development and to enhance Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): The Secretary the quality of every interaction between every teacher of State keeps claiming that there has been a reduction and every child. The programme is being led by the in the number of unqualified teachers, but will he inspirational head of the National College for Teaching confirm that there has been a whopping 141% increase and Leadership, Charlie Taylor. in unqualified teachers in academies and free schools and explain how that will improve our international Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I gather that this standing? morning my right hon. Friend had the opportunity to listen to the piece on the “Today” programme about Michael Gove: There has been a significant reduction maths in Singapore. It is difficult to believe that children in the number of unqualified teachers overall. However, in Singapore necessarily have any greater cognitive skills some schools in the free schools programme were formerly than their UK counterparts, so I wonder what work is independent schools that did not have teachers with being done to look at the process and technique of qualified teacher status. For example, University College teaching mathematics in Singapore to see whether any school in Hampstead has had teachers who did not lessons need to be learned. have qualified teacher status, as have outstanding schools like Liverpool College that are now in the state system. I Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a good point. am very glad that, thanks to the work of Lord Adonis Some schools, including academies and free schools in the other place, schools like Liverpool College have such as those established by the ARK chain, explicitly now entered the state system. We are nationalising these use the Singaporean mathematics curriculum, but our private schools, and that is a worthwhile, progressive new national curriculum has also been informed by goal with which, I hope, Labour Front Benchers would practice not only in Singapore but in other high-performing agree. jurisdictions. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): What lessons Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): These figures does the Secretary of State take from the widening will mask a lot of differences between the performance discrepancy in the PISA tests between English pupils of children from different economic backgrounds. Given and pupils in Labour-run Wales? that children from poor backgrounds tend to perform much less well because of economic and educational Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very important disadvantage, what steps is the Secretary of State taking point. I am afraid that in Wales, a country for which I to ensure that the performance of those children is have enormous affection, the Welsh Labour Government improved and that resources are made available to chose to abandon league tables and external accountability. them? The current Welsh Administration are unfortunately not matching our commitment to spending in schools. Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman The conclusion that we can draw is that if people want for making that point. He is a teacher himself, so he to know what our education system would be like if the knows how important it is to make sure that learning is country were foolishly to vote Labour at the next election, targeted at children in an appropriate way to recognise they need only look over the Severn to see a country the different abilities that different children have at going backwards. different stages in their lives. Through the pupil premium, we are making sure that more money is spent at every Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Can the Secretary stage of a child’s life if they come from a poorer of State explain how the appointment of an unqualified background. We are also changing the way in which maths teacher will help to design and deliver a course league tables operate so that more schools have to pay with a more stretching mathematical content? more attention to children from underprivileged backgrounds to ensure that we get the most out of Michael Gove: The fact that there are more highly them. qualified teachers in our schools than ever before is a very good thing that I hope the hon. Lady would Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) support. If she is referring to South Leeds academy, as (Con): An outstanding school is invariably led by an the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram outstanding head teacher. What steps is my right hon. Hunt) did, the advertisement was misleading: it was not 795 PISA Results3 DECEMBER 2013 PISA Results 796 advertising for unqualified teachers but advertising for Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ classroom assistants who would train in due course, as Co-op): If Hackney schools’ results were extrapolated classroom assistants currently do. If the hon. Gentleman nationally, we would be about third in the international contacted the school, he would know that he has made league tables. That is a direct result of inspired Labour a mistake. I hope that he will contact the school to local political leadership, collaboration between excellent apologise for his unfair and inaccurate depiction of the head teachers, and the right sort of Government support. situation and show himself to be big enough to apologise What is the Secretary of State doing to make sure that for having got something wrong. such collaboration is nationalised—to use his word—so that children of all abilities and backgrounds across the Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Can my country are achieving as they are in Hackney, where the right hon. Friend explain why, while English schools poorest children are progressing as well as the richest? have sadly fallen down the league tables, GCSE rates have soared? Michael Gove: I have often had the opportunity in the past to draw attention to how well Hackney performs Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a good point. and, indeed, how effectively Hackney is represented in Last time the OECD issued a report, I am afraid that this House by its two MPs when it comes to educational Opposition Front Benchers rubbished it because, so matters. As both the hon. Lady and her parliamentary they said, GCSE results improved under Labour. It is neighbour acknowledge, it is an emphasis on academic therefore clearly the case that our children are significantly excellence and, indeed, the growth in academy schools more literate and numerate. The truth is that there was that has driven Hackney’s improvement. It is really improvement under the previous Government, but, as important that she keeps her Front-Bench colleagues the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen honest by making sure that they back academic excellence Twigg) pointed out, there was also grade inflation. That and the spread of academisation. grade inflation has been laid bare by international studies showing that while we have improved, other Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): The Secretary of countries have improved far faster, and it is vitally State has rightly touched on the comparative poor important that we recognise that and learn from them. performance in Wales. Would he blame that primarily on the fact that we have a £600 per head funding gap as a result of Labour policy or on the fact that the Labour Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): The results in Government in Cardiff have accepted teaching union Wales are disappointing, but they are also disappointing dogma for the past 15 years? in other parts of the UK, so making political capital is the wrong approach. Does the Secretary of State agree Michael Gove: Both. that a common lesson is the need to focus relentlessly on underperformance, and that that is a job not just for governors, head teachers and school teachers but for Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): These figures are parents, communities and political leaders, not least actually further evidence of the lamentable failure of those in areas of deprivation and disadvantage? successive Governments and our country in general to take education seriously enough, so will the Secretary of State set aside his partisan point scoring and agree Michael Gove: I cannot disagree with the hon. that what this country needs is a royal commission in Gentleman’s conclusion. I would say, however, that the order to get cross-party agreement and the support of Welsh Administration chose to follow a different path the teaching profession, business and parents to make than the reformist path set out by Tony Blair in his education our No.1 priority and to back policies and education White Paper in 2006. Labour in government long-term funding to transform the quality of education deliberately got rid of Tony Blair and abandoned the our children receive? path of reform during its last three years in office. There is now an opportunity for the hon. Gentleman, who Michael Gove: I have a lot of time and admiration for calls himself a Blairite, to embrace reform by agreeing the hon. Gentleman. I am not in favour of a royal with us. I hope that he will, and that he will learn the commission. As someone once said, royal commissions lesson from history and from Wales that if you abandon take minutes and last years. I agree that we need a sense reform, the electorate abandon you. of national urgency and a unified commitment to raising standards. I know that the hon. Gentleman agrees in Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): Will almost every respect with the details of our educational performance-related pay help to incentivise heads and reform, and I look forward to working with him further teachers to hold teacher training days during the school in the future. holidays and not on the first day of term? [Interruption.] Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes not only an My right hon. Friend has highlighted that the best acute but a popular point. An interesting thing about educational systems feature high levels of autonomy. the situation in Shanghai is that teacher training—20 days What freedoms is he giving to head teachers to help of it, in fact—takes place during the summer holidays. I them get the very best out of pupils? am not suggesting that we embark on that road now, but I would underline that when we are learning lessons Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. from abroad, we need to acknowledge the vital importance Under the academies programme, head teachers have of making sure that continuous professional development the freedom—as is being used in the King Solomon is implemented in a way that helps teachers and takes academy in one of the most deprived parts of London—to account of parents’ needs. vary the curriculum in order to make it fit the needs of 797 PISA Results3 DECEMBER 2013 PISA Results 798

[Michael Gove] Michael Gove: It is absolutely right that we encourage more men to consider teaching, particularly in primary individual students. We are also giving all schools greater schools, as an aspirational profession. I am delighted freedom over who they recruit and how they reward that there has been an increase in the number of highly them, in order to make sure that we continue to have talented men entering primary teaching. more and more talented people in our classrooms. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): Although it Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) may be politically attractive to try to scare people with (Lab): Andreas Schleicher also said that no education the red herring of unqualified teachers, is this not really system can exceed the quality of its teachers. How does a question of trusting heads? Non-qualified teacher a 141% increase in unqualified teachers in free schools status teachers have long existed in the state sector, but and academies help improve quality? they are relatively few in number and fewer now than under the previous Government. As it happens, the Michael Gove: As I pointed out in response to the most improved region—London—employs the most. question asked by the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson), the increase in the number of Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a characteristically unqualified teachers in academies and free schools is a well-informed point. One of the revealing things over direct result of the nationalisation of independent schools. the past 50 minutes or so is that some Labour MPs have Overall, the reduction under this Government in the been wise enough to acknowledge that there is a great number of teachers without teaching qualifications reflects deal of common ground between both parties on the the fact that teachers are now better qualified than ever need to reform our schools system, but those Labour before. Critically, the decision over who to hire should MPs who have asked critical questions have criticised us be a matter for head teachers. It is critical to the success on only one thing and they have used statistics that, I of any education system that we respect the autonomy am afraid, simply mislead. of great head teachers to recruit people with the right qualifications for their community and students. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): In maths, science and reading, Poland is at least 10 places above Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): The Secretary of us in the international league tables. Does Poland spend State will recall meeting some of the outstanding head more than us on education? If not, what is it doing that teachers in Northumberland with me and then authorising we could emulate? the rebuild of Prudhoe community high school. Does he agree with me, Lord Adonis and the other authors of Michael Gove: Poland does not spend more than us; the Adonis report that there is scope for a London indeed, Vietnam, which outperforms us in mathematics, challenge-type approach in the north-east? spends significantly less than us. What they do have is a commitment to higher standards that are rigorously Michael Gove: A lot needs to be done in the north-east policed. Poland’s curriculum is modelled on, or is similar in order to improve education. One thing we need to do to, our English baccalaureate. Both Vietnam and Poland is ensure that local authorities end their opposition to have a determination to place standards on a higher academisation and free schools and that there is a plane than those on the Opposition Front Bench would degree of collaboration among autonomous head teachers contemplate. who are determined to drive up standards, as we have seen in London. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Does the Secretary of State agree that the outcomes in Wales are Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): The architect nothing short of a scandal and that they are the ultimate of PISA has demonstrated categorically that the lowest- demonstration of Labour’s education policy in action? performing schools in the OECD have autonomy but There are parents across Wales, and even some in this not a collaborative culture. Is that not the perfect description House, who are genuinely worried about the future of of the Secretary of State’s reform programme? their children’s education. Will the Secretary of State encourage the Welsh Government to follow his robust Michael Gove: No. The perfect description of our reforms? reform programme is that it is based on social justice and recognises that the strongest systems combine Michael Gove: Wales acts almost as a controlled autonomy with stricter accountability. We have introduced sample. Welsh children are as intelligent and motivated stricter accountability through changes both to Ofsted as children in England, but unfortunately in Wales there and to league tables. Unfortunately, those on the Labour are no academies, no free schools, no league tables, no Front Bench have not endorsed those changes to help chief inspector such as Sir Michael Wilshaw and no drive up standards. They should be listening to outstanding determination to reform like this coalition Government. head teachers who have the right idea, such as Dame It is an object lesson in what happens when people Yasmin Bevan in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. abandon reform and succumb to the NUT orthodoxy, The sooner he introduces her to his Front-Bench colleagues, which I am afraid has suffocated aspiration for far too the better for all of us. many children in the Principality.

Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): Does the Secretary Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): University technical of State agree that it is important that our primary schools have huge potential to transform education school children are taught by men as well as women, through their emphasis on technical education, vocation and will he confirm that the number of men training to and science and mathematics. Such a school will open be primary school teachers is on the rise? in Harlow next year. Will my right hon. Friend expand 799 PISA Results 3 DECEMBER 2013 800 the university technical school programme even further Point of Order: Rectification Procedure in order that young people may gain the vocational and technical expertise from which they will benefit? Mr Speaker: On a point of order in connection with the code of conduct to rectify a failure to declare, I call Michael Gove: University technical colleges are an Dr Hywel Francis. excellent innovation and we want to make sure that there are more high-performing UTCs. 1.27 pm Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): On a point of Mr Speaker: I am pleased to say that 45 Back Benchers order, Mr Speaker. On 9 October, I spoke in the debate contributed in only 36 minutes of exclusively Back-Bench on part 2 of the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party time, which is a commentary on the succinctness of Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill. I both the questions and the answers. I thank colleagues made it clear in my speech that I was doing so on behalf for that. of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which I Chair. With hindsight, even though I was speaking on behalf of my Committee, I now recognise that I should have drawn the House’s attention to my personal declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests with regard to a relevant registered donation. I therefore apologise to the House for that omission.

Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. 801 3 DECEMBER 2013 Decarbonisation 802

Decarbonisation about putting a decarbonisation target into that Bill, and doing so would have shown strong commitment Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order and leadership on this important issue. The target is No. 23) not, however, just about showing strong leadership in the fight against climate change, but about developing a 1.28 pm new and dynamic green economy that puts the UK at Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I beg to move, the forefront of low-carbon technology, so developing the skills and jobs of the future and diversifying the That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the setting of a decarbonisation target for the UK; and for connected economy to ensure that it delivers for everyone. purposes. A clear decarbonisation target would help to stimulate It is incumbent on this House and every Member to green growth in the economy, tackle spiralling energy ensure that future generations do better than the generation bills, improve energy security and, of course, reduce our before. That is no truer than in the area of climate carbon footprint. Not having my Bill might leave households change and the significant impact it will have on even more vulnerable to completely unnecessary increases communities in the UK and all over the world. We have in their energy bills, and cause Britain to miss out on seen in recent years a considerable rise in natural disasters vital new clean energy jobs. caused by freak weather, none more so than the recent I am grateful to hon. Members from across the tragedy in the Philippines. We must not lose sight of the House for supporting the Bill. Given such cross-party fact that the effects of climate change and high energy consensus and the fact that the Government want, at prices are felt most acutely by the poorest in our societies. least in principle, to set a decarbonisation target, I That is why this House should take the opportunity to cannot see why that should not be achieved. My Bill is do all it can to ensure that we decarbonise our energy intended to ensure that the target is put into primary and make a contribution to addressing the deepening legislation. It is simply not good enough for the Secretary climate crisis. of State—incidentally, he used to support this stance—to In the next decade, a quarter of Britain’s power be given the power to set a target at some point after stations are set to close and £200 billion-worth of 2016, and for the legislation to state that he may, and I investment is required to supply the UK’s energy needs. emphasise “may”, then decide to set a target. On this Government’s watch, however, there has been a A decarbonisation target is supported by a wide collapse in clean energy investment. The much referred range of experts, including hundreds of businesses, to independent analysis by Bloomberg New Energy investors, non-governmental organisations, civil society Finance shows that investment in renewable energy has organisations, faith groups, trade unions and, critically, fallen dramatically since 2010: in 2009, investment in energy companies, including SSE and EDF. They have clean energy reached $11.06 billion; this year, investment clearly stated: is likely to be less than $3 billion, which is the lowest “A sector-specific target for 2030 would give investors a clear level since 2006. Some very high-profile projects have signal about the direction of energy policy after 2020 and encourage been cancelled or delayed that our energy generation greater investment in UK-based supply chains.” and economy can ill afford to lose. Those figures should Critically, decarbonising power is the gateway to the disturb any hon. Member who cares about clean and decarbonisation of other sectors. We can ill afford more affordable energy. of the Government indecision that we have witnessed In October, a group of investors responsible for more on feed-in tariffs, which almost brought the industry for than £1 trillion of investment worldwide wrote to the solar power crashing to its knees overnight. Government to argue that leaving a decarbonisation If we do not decarbonise the power sector, we have target out of the Energy Bill inhibits investment decisions no hope of meeting our climate change targets. The and negatively impacts on the UK’s ability to attract the Climate Change Act 2008, brought in by my right hon. capital needed to update its “ageing infrastructure”. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, committed the Aviva, one of the UK’s largest institutional investors, UK to a legally binding reduction of carbon dioxide has said that a target must be set before 2016—the emissions by 80% by 2050. To meet the 2050 target, the Government have implied that that will be the date— influential Committee on Climate Change has since otherwise investment will be fundamentally affected. recommended that the power sector be decarbonised by The Bill would set in legislation a decarbonisation 2030. In practice, that means reducing average emissions target to give the energy generation sector the boost it in power generation from 486g of CO2 per kWh to requires by giving it the certainty to invest. That certainty 50g of CO2 per kWh by 2030. is essential to the researchers and academics, spin-out The danger of missing our carbon targets was echoed companies and start-ups, in my constituency. Edinburgh by the Prime Minister in 2010, when he endorsed the South is home to the university of Edinburgh’s King’s decarbonisation of the electricity sector by 2030, and Buildings, a base for pioneering low-carbon development said: that hosts industries, companies and the university’s “If we don’t decarbonise electricity we’ve got no hope of world-leading low-carbon technology research and meeting all the targets that we are all committed to.” development centre. On regular visits to the campus, it Such a target is also good for consumers. During my has been made clear to me that future funding depends weekly surgery just last Friday, a pensioner told me in on a clear policy direction from this Government. I am no uncertain terms that this winter she faces having to introducing the Bill to launch my “Hit the target” decide whether to heat her home or to eat, which is campaign for decarbonisation. surely unacceptable. The Energy Bill has almost concluded its passage The Bill would sit alongside Labour’s 10-point plan through the House, with Lords amendments being for energy, which will fundamentally transform the considered tomorrow. There has been a robust debate energy market in the UK, freeze energy prices and make 803 Decarbonisation 3 DECEMBER 2013 804 energy more affordable, while helping the industry to invest and plan for the future. One could say that this is Opposition Day the greenest Opposition ever. [14TH ALLOTTED DAY] The Bill has three key components: first, that a target will be set in 2014; secondly, that the target will be met by 2030; and, thirdly, taking advice from the Committee Cyber-bullying on Climate Change, that emissions will be reduced to between 50g CO2 per kWh and 100g CO2 per kWh. The 1.37 pm Bill is very simple, but it clearly says that we will give David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I beg to move, investors certainty, that we care about climate change and jobs in the green economy, and that we want That this House recognises the serious problem of cyber-bullying and the appalling consequences for an increasing number of security of supply and cheaper and more efficient energy. children and young people who are its victims; and calls on the Finally, my constituents want it to be implemented Government to take action to help eradicate this form of intimidation urgently, and the House should support the Bill. and harassment, including the consideration of legislation to Question put and agreed to. make cyber-bullying an offence. Ordered, I rise to speak on the motion in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends. I do so in the reassuring That Ian Murray, Dr Julian Huppert, Mark Durkan, knowledge that it is more than likely, I trust, that in the Dr Alan Whitehead, Diana Johnson, Ann McKechin, general thrust of a debate on cyber-bullying, party Caroline Lucas, Andrew George, Joan Walley, Albert political differences will, for the most part, be set to one Owen, Mark Lazarowicz and Sheila Gilmore present side. I say that not out of any sense of presumption, but the Bill. it is borne of my experiences as a Member of this Ian Murray accordingly presented the Bill. House and of the united opposition of all parties to the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on growing phenomena of cyber-bullying and internet trolling. Friday 28 February 2014, and to be printed (Bill 141). Let us remind ourselves that cyber-bullying is the use of electronic communication to bully a person, typically by sending intimidating or threatening messages. Most hon. Members in the Chamber have access to a mobile phone, an iPad and other electronic devices, which we rely on in carrying out our responsibilities as elected representatives. Our phones and mobile devices are all equipped with software that allows even the most novice of users to browse the internet, and if we so wish, to communicate via social media. I engage with my constituents via social media daily. Today, technology allows me to reach out and express my views to thousands of people at the click of a button. That is a very useful tool, but the fact that a person can reach out to thousands of people by the click of a button is a harrowing one for approximately 65% of teenagers. We will be blinded by facts and figures in this debate, but they must all be aired to hit home what a problem cyber-bullying is and what a lasting effect it has. We hear more and more reports of young people who take their own lives as a result of bullying, and cyber-bullying in particular. I arranged to meet Dr Arthur Cassidy, who heads up an organisation in my constituency called the Yellow Ribbon. Dr Cassidy is involved in UK-wide research into cyber-bullying and internet trolling. He has carried out comprehensive research on the effects of bullying on young people, including the long-term effects on the development of its victims. Recent reports have found that approximately 65% of teenagers say that they have experienced online bullying or trolling, with the most common form being cruel posts that comment on the way that someone is dressed or on what they look like. Some 48% of those teenagers said that it had made them feel very upset. More than half of that 65% said that it was happening to them at least once a week. The anonymity permitted by certain forms of online social interaction can give bullies the false impression that they can say anything they wish, no matter how hurtful, with little consequence for themselves or for the person they might have harmed. Children have the right to feel safe and secure, particularly when they are at 805 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 806

[David Simpson] am one of them. Because of the generation that I grew up in, I still use just one finger on an iPad, let alone on a school. Schoolchildren are still developing and do not full computer. A lot of education is needed. always have the wisdom to avoid cyber-bullying or to seek out the best solutions or help in dealing with this Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Will my hon. issue. Friend give way? In October, I contacted every post-primary school in my constituency and asked each school to identify two David Simpson: My hon. Friend had the same sort of student representatives to sit on a forum to discuss education as me and, although he is an economist, I cyber-bullying. The meeting was attended by Dr Arthur know that he has the same one-finger problem with Cassidy, the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the computers. community safety partnership and some parents. I thank them all for their help. I felt that it was essential to Sammy Wilson: I assure my hon. Friend that I will engage with young people and to hear their views on never be cyber-bullied because I do not have access to how social media affect them both positively and negatively. the means by which I could be cyber-bullied, nor do I Many of the children emphasised how difficult it can wish to have it. He has talked about the impact on be to find help when they have been bullied and to get pupils. Does he also accept that one in 10 teachers has adults to listen to them. They said that many adults do been bullied online—however that is done—which can not understand social media and that more should be affect their teaching and make them fear for their done to educate parents and teachers about cyber-bullying. families? I was very impressed by the openness of the young people at the forum. I was hesitant when it was brought David Simpson: My hon. Friend is correct that this together, because I did not think that they would open problem affects not only children, but young adults and up in such a forum, but they did. On that day, I made a older folk. I mentioned Dr Cassidy. Without going into commitment to those young people that I would do too much detail, he has to deal with such bullying on whatever I could as their Member of Parliament to urge the mainland at least once a year in relation to TV the Government to take whatever steps were needed to personalities who appear on some of the hottest tackle this growing phenomenon. programmes on a Saturday night. He has to deal with that issue with the BBC and UTV. My hon. Friend is I am pleased to say that steps have been taken in my correct that teachers are abused in this way as well, and constituency to address the problem. A workshop is that needs to be dealt with. scheduled to take place tomorrow evening to offer advice to parents who are concerned about keeping up The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence to date with modern technology and who want to know estimates that 80,000 children in the United Kingdom what they can do to keep their children safe online. I suffer from severe depression. That includes 8,000 children commend the children and young people’s strategic under the age of 10. We as a society need to take partnership for its role in making that happen. responsibility for preventing harmful and antisocial behaviour such as cyber-bullying and for dealing effectively We need to work together to eradicate cyber-bullying. with incidents of virtual violence. We need an integrated The venom that a cyber-bully produces has been proven approach in which Government, schools, parents, internet to leave long-term effects and to make the lives of their service providers and charities work together to keep victims miserable. Many victims succumb to anxiety, the most vulnerable people safe. depression and other stress-related disorders. The anonymity and protection of distance makes it easier to push the Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I was hoping boundaries and to provoke and taunt with practically to speak in this debate, but at 2 o’clock I have to attend no accountability. the Public Bill Committee considering the Water Bill and the Health Committee simultaneously, which will Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): be interesting. I wanted to raise with the hon. Gentleman I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing forward the responsibility of those who host the websites. A this important subject. I am interested to hear of the 17-year-old constituent of mine, Kira Lisseter, came to progress that he is making with schools in his constituency. me after comments were posted on a US website, Is not part of the problem the lack of confidence littlegossip.com. We wrote to the Minister, who was among parents of my generation, older generations and very helpful and did all that he could. We also tried to even younger generations, who lack the technological raise the matter with the internet service provider and savvy to tackle the problem head-on with their children? the hosts, but response came there none. The hon. Schools have a responsibility to educate not just children, Gentleman is right that we can do a lot through education but parents so that they know how to educate and look and Government action, but we also need the people after their children. who host the websites to be far more responsible.

David Simpson: Progress is being made on that. Our David Simpson: I could not agree more with the hon. forum will meet again in the second week of January to Gentleman. The hosts need to be brought to book in hear an update. Hopefully we will see more movement respect of how they operate. They have to realise what from the Government and the Northern Ireland Assembly this problem is doing to young people. on this matter. The hon. Gentleman is right that in today’s society, Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I, talking is almost a thing of the past between parents too, congratulate the hon. Gentleman and his party on and their children. They do not interact in the way that initiating this debate. To follow on from the previous they used to. Parents do not understand such things—I point, I have seen constituents who have had fake 807 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 808

Twitter accounts set up in their name, which have been David Simpson: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We linked to bullying. They do not know what others are need to define cyber-bullying, and there needs to be a saying using that account. Does he agree that a key criminal offence. Those who receive sentences get 17 or point is that there needs to be greater verification of 18 weeks, which is nothing, and are then out again and people who set up accounts, and that anonymous accounts reoffending—it is a badge of honour. Something drastic that cannot be linked or traced should not be allowed? needs to be done to eradicate the problem. We must prioritise the development of a strategy to David Simpson: Absolutely. There needs to be proper educate both parents and children. There is absolutely accountability and due diligence when Twitter or other no time to waste, because all the studies that have been accounts are set up, because the problem causes major done have reached a similar conclusion: cyber-bullying difficulties for people in general, not just children. is a dramatically growing trend, not just a passing phase. It is seriously damaging young people’s self-esteem A girl of 13 said: and future prospects and having a negative impact on “It is worse being bullied over the internet because everyone their performance at school and their health. It will can see and it makes you feel little and small and worthless.” continue to grow if we do not act fast. Work needs to be As I have said, the problem does not just affect children done to make ways of reporting such hate crimes more or teenagers. A girl of 21 said: accessible. Children, young people and the vulnerable “They would call me horrendous names, spreading rumours need to know that when they require help, support is and behind my back tell people to ignore me online. Other times already in place for them, and adults need to be there they would add me to a big group conversation online and really not only to offer that support but to be role models of dig into me. They also hacked in to my account and I was sent a respectable behaviour. really aggressive email from a group of girls”. Another child said: 1.55 pm “I felt that no one understood what I was going through. I The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, didn’t know who was sending me these messages, and I felt Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): I thank the hon. powerless to know what to do.” Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) for tabling In August, the Prime Minister spoke out, saying: this important motion and for his measured and serious “The people that operate these websites have got to step up to speech. It was good to hear about the work that he is the plate and show some responsibility in the way that they run doing in his constituency to encourage the education of these websites.” parents about technology. Although it might be true that adults are not as technologically savvy as their With respect, the Government, too, must step up to the teenage children, the debate shows that adults, particularly plate and impose strict regulations on internet service him, take a strong interest in children’s welfare, especially providers, social network sites and mobile phone networks, given the new and venomous trend of cyber-bullying. to ensure that we eradicate the problem at the root. As the motion suggests, they should consider introducing It goes without saying that we must take bullying in legislation to make cyber-bullying an offence. general, and cyber-bullying in particular, very seriously. I therefore welcome the opportunity to have this debate The Canadian Government are already actively so that I can listen to the House’s views and set out combating cyber-bullying and have recently amended some of the initiatives that the Government are taking their online crime Act to bring it up to date with to combat cyber-bullying. modern technology, although I understand that there is still some controversy about the legislation, with young It is good to see the House debating the subject, and activists and child psychologists voicing concerns that it goes without saying that bullying is high on parents’ the public may have been misled into thinking that it lists of concerns about their children when they are at would deal with cyber-bullying, whereas they see it as school. We know that the impact of bullying can be only a partial solution. However, it is something to devastating for those who are bullied, sometimes with work on and build on. I understand that the Republic of the most tragic of consequences. Cyber-bullying is often Ireland is also considering legislation to make cyber-bullying an extension of bullying that takes place at school, and a crime. the fact that it can follow those being bullied to their home, giving them no respite or refuge, makes it all the The Government might recognise the impact of cyber- more insidious and harmful. I completely agree with the bullying, but there is no specific UK law that makes hon. Gentleman that the anonymity and distance provided cyber-bullying illegal. I understand that it can be considered online provoke an almost unintelligible venom. I am a criminal offence under legislation such as the Protection not an apologist for physical bullying, but we almost from Harassment Act 1997 and the Criminal Justice cannot imagine such venom were the bully and the and Public Order Act 1994, but there is no specific law bullied face to face. That takes cyber-bullying to another to deal with it. level of insidiousness. As the hon. Gentleman said, our children now have Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Does the great access to the internet. There is internet access in hon. Gentleman agree that the Government should virtually every household—91%—in which children live, define clearly the term “cyber-bullying”, which is different and more teenagers than adults own smartphones as a from cyber-stalking, trolling or other online offences, so proportion of their population. Developing children’s that we can see where the boundaries of that behaviour skills in this digital age is therefore incredibly important. lie and change people’s behaviour online? Many people It is also worth reminding the House of how quickly the hide behind the anonymity of a computer to do things phenomenon has come upon us. I fought my first election online that they would not do to him, me or anyone else in 2005, when I became a relatively young and junior face to face. Member, without YouTube and Twitter and virtually 809 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 810

[Mr Edward Vaizey] As well as criminal law, it is important to consider the other issues raised by the hon. Gentleman in his excellent without Facebook. Facebook came into being in 2004, opening remarks, including the whole ecology that exists YouTube in 2005 and Twitter in 2006. Now those and a in terms of we in society uniting to combat this scourge. plethora of other sites are integral to the lives not just of I hear what he says about cyber-bullying being a growing Members but of the children who use them. Ensuring threat, and I welcome his constructive suggestions—for that children can use those technologies safely is incredibly example, he made a point about doing rather than important and will become increasingly so. talking in the work to educate parents in his constituency. The hon. Gentleman referred, as does the motion, to creating a specific crime of cyber-bullying. I certainly Tim Loughton: My hon. Friend said that nuisance took on board what he said, and the hon. Member for and annoyance may be covered by new legislation, but Everton— we are talking not about that but about downright abuse that can lead some people to commit suicide. Can Steve Rotheram: Liverpool, Walton. he tell the House how many people have been prosecuted under the Malicious Communications Act 1988 or the Mr Vaizey: Sorry, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Communications Act 2003 for offences that this House Walton (Steve Rotheram)—I always think of him as the would recognise as forms of cyber-bullying? hon. Member for Everton because of his stalwart support for that team—made the point that the Government Mr Vaizey: I would hesitate to answer that question should define cyber-bullying. It is important to be clear in the detail that my hon. Friend requires, at the risk of that Governments should not legislate where legislation misleading the House. As I said a few minutes ago, my is unnecessary. We will continue to listen to his case, but understanding is that there were 2,000 prosecutions last as he said, current legislation is in use. year. I do not have a breakdown of those figures, but I will write to him if he requires that. The fundamental To add to the Acts already mentioned by the hon. point, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that under existing Member for Upper Bann, the Communications Act legislation prosecutions are taking place for what you or 2003 makes it illegal to send menacing messages, and in I would recognise as cyber-bullying. 2012 there were 2,000 prosecutions for that offence. The Director of Public Prosecutions has issued guidance on It is important to involve everyone in society in defining cyber-bullying—certainly on trolling—and combating this threat. That includes the Government, prosecutors are not afraid to take action when there is a of course, but also parents, teachers and the industry, clear case of malicious attacks on the internet. which the hon. Member for Upper Bann mentioned. As he knows, the previous Government established the UK Steve Rotheram: Does the Minister therefore regret Council for Child Internet Safety—UKCCIS—which the decision by the Crown Prosecution Service to raise has continued to work with this Government, bringing the threshold for prosecutions against those who commit together three Ministers: myself, the Under-Secretary such offences online? of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), who will wind-up the debate, and the Minister for Policing, Criminal Mr Vaizey: I think it was right for the DPP and CPS Justice and Victims. The council brings together industry, to consult extensively on the issue, and to make a academia, charities, parents groups, and law enforcement considered decision. The risk of almost limitless potential under three Ministers. prosecutions must be balanced against the need for a credible policy and credible prosecutions. I am sure the It is often said—again, I would welcome any critique debate on that will continue, but I think the process was of this—that the UK is a pioneer in internet safety, and carefully considered and not rushed into. Neither was my experience of working in the field is that we are there any wish to underestimate the impact of some of highly regarded around the world for the work we do. the cyber-bullying. That does not, I hasten to add, signal any sense of complacency on our part, but it shows that we are proactive about the issue, as were the previous Government. David Simpson: Does the Minister agree that although legislation can be used, it is not stopping the problem? Cyber-bullying is a growing trend and a virus that is Steve Rotheram: That long list of organisations the sweeping the country. Surely something more radical Minister is consulting does not include the social media needs to be done to protect our young people. platforms, although they are pivotal to changing the online culture. What are the Government doing to engage with Facebook, Twitter and Bebo, or whoever it Mr Vaizey: As I said, as well as setting out what the might be, on that issue? Government are doing, I am here to listen to views from all sides of the House. As the hon. Gentleman made clear, I hope this will be a thoughtful debate about Mr Vaizey: That was my error in omitting to mention something on which Members are united, which is to that Facebook is on the board of UKCCIS, and we see this venomous trend—to use his powerful adjective— regularly engage with social media. However, I think curtailed in the best way we can. On the criminal that we can—and should—do more, and I will come to element, as I understand, the Anti-social Behaviour, that in a minute. Crime and Policing Bill will include a new offence of As I was saying, the UKCCIS board considers what causing nuisance and annoyance and there will be the companies can do to help to address cyber-bullying and opportunity for someone to get an antisocial behaviour to develop robust policies. It has been working with the order against people who cause nuisance and annoyance. industry and social media companies to look at the ease That can also be used in cases of cyber-bullying. with which users can report abuse on their sites, and 811 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 812 how those reports are dealt with. The Government have Mr Vaizey: We are lucky enough to have sitting been clear that we expect social media companies to next to me one of the top Education Ministers, my respond quickly and effectively where behaviour contravenes hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich those policies. It is also important to emphasise—I do (Mr Timpson). By the time he comes to sum up, he will not know how well this will go down with certain have an answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question. The elements in the Chamber—that that work is also happening change in the law was welcomed, but I cannot say, from at European Union level. I think it is worth convening a my eyrie in the Department for Culture, Media and meeting in the new year with social media companies Sport, what statistics the Department for Education has and interested Members. If any Member in the Chamber at its fingertips on its effectiveness. The Department is wishes to participate, I would be happy to facilitate it. proud of reducing 481 pages of bullying advice down to 11 pages. Common sense tells us that bullying advice is Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): Does the Minister now being read by schools. The hon. Gentleman alluded believe that any legislation brought in by the Government to search powers, but the 2011 Act also introduced the must cover all those who participate in the bullying? new simplified Ofsted inspection regime. Since January That is not just the initial person who put up the 2012, Ofsted has four core criteria only, one of which bullying or slanderous message, but those who repeat it includes freedom from bullying. Schools can therefore online and spread it around, as they are equally to be held to account for their policies. blame. From September 2014, pupils in every key stage—all pupils from ages five to 16—will be taught about online Mr Vaizey: A fundamental principle of law is that safety as part of the new curriculum. We hope that that what is illegal in the physical world is illegal in the will empower young people to tackle cyber-bullying online world. If someone participates in an assault or in through responsible, respectful and secure use of technology, bullying in the physical world, they should be equally as well as ensure that pupils are taught age-appropriate susceptible to whatever law they would contravene were ways of reporting any concerns they may have about they to do that in the online world. Someone repeating what they see or encounter online. I was also going to a libel online is not exempt from being sued because mention— they have simply repeated what somebody else has said. That is the case with bullying and cyber-bullying as Tim Loughton rose— well. I repeat my offer to facilitate a meeting in the new Mr Vaizey: That I want to take an intervention from year. The industry must understand that we need to my hon. Friend. make things as easy as possible for users. There may be common ground here. I think we considered this issue Tim Loughton: The Minister is being very generous in when we were tackling inappropriate content online giving way. Will he confirm that academies and free and protecting our kids, and it goes back to what the schools will not have to follow the curriculum guidelines? hon. Member for Upper Bann was saying about teaching What will he be doing, with his colleagues in the Department parents in his constituency. Someone might be sitting in for Education, to ensure that these important procedures their headquarters thinking, “Well, we’ve got robust will still be taught in all our schools? policies. We’ve got this, we’ve got that,” but it must be clear to all users and across different platforms that Mr Vaizey: All schools will have to have a protection whatever social media someone participates in, they policy in place and they will be subject to Ofsted should expect certain key principles such as the ability inspections. My hon. Friend’s intervention gives me an to make a complaint or receive a rapid response. I will opportunity to say what a fantastic job he did as children’s facilitate that meeting. Minister. One reason why I have such respect for his remarks is because he is one of those former Ministers I mentioned education, and the whole drive against who has maintained an interest in the policy in which he cyber-bullying must be considered as part of a broader was so intimately involved, and he continues to make drive to tackle all forms of bullying. The Government important interventions in our debates. have sent a clear message to schools that bullying in any form is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. For The Education Act 2011 strengthened schools’powers—a schools there is a mixture of education and legislation, specific Government intervention in this area—so that as well as greater freedom and more accountability. For teachers can now impose same-day detention, use example, as part of the national curriculum, the reasonable force to protect children from harm and Government will ensure that children are educated about have the power to search for and delete images or files the dangers of the internet. Although schools are required that they think are inappropriate. Schools do not exist by law to have a behaviour and bullying policy, they in a vacuum. Sometimes the rhetoric is such that we have flexibility in how to implement that policy, while at almost pass on to schools the responsibility for sorting the same time they are held to account by Ofsted. out all society’s ills. Schools have to work with parents, and parents have to be participants and allies in the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): During the passage of work to combat cyber-bullying. Schools need to work the Education Act 2011, Ministers emphasised that with parents to make it clear that no one will tolerate cyber-bullying was a motivation for changing disciplinary any kind of bullying, and to ensure that parents are laws to allow members of staff, not just teachers, to aware of the procedures to follow if they believe their search an individual student, even a member of the opposite child is being bullied. Schools should investigate and act sex, without anybody else present and to seize property. on all reports. Do the Government have any evidence on the use of the Making parents aware of what they can do to keep changed powers in schools? Have any protocols been children safe online is also important. I am pleased that, developed and have any issues arisen from their use? as part of our work to protect children from inappropriate 813 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 814

[Mr Vaizey] 2.18 pm content online, the main internet service providers have Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Some come together and formed an alliance to carry out a time ago, I secured a debate on suicide prevention. I large-scale internet safety awareness campaign for parents. acknowledged then, and I do now, that the internet and I understand that that will have a budget of approximately social media are prominent features in youth culture £25 million per year for the next three years and will nowadays. Young people see the use of technology as a include signposting to further sources of help and advice. vital part of their social life, and the online environment I have said to the ISPs on many occasions that while it has created unique opportunities to learn, to connect might be helpful to them in a competitive environment and to communicate. to offer new and up-to-date tools to parents to keep Almost 99% of children aged between eight and 17 their children safe online, they must also work together throughout the United Kingdom have access to the as one. They have the experience, they know their internet, while 90% of children aged five to 16 have customers, they have the highly paid marketing directors computer access. As we accept that social media are a and they have the relationships with the advertising reality in everyday life, we must also accept the growing agencies and so on to work together as one for the concern about the use of the internet for cyber-bullying. common good to put forward this message. I am pleased Although it may be impossible to remove online risk we have got this deal with them. completely, we have a duty to challenge the present unacceptable situation that leaves vulnerable young people and adults open to abuse and self-harm Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I am pleased We as legislators cannot sit on the sidelines until to hear the news about the campaign. Will the Minister something happens that affects our homes and families, clarify whether that will be £25 million per year for which is when we typically express horror and disbelief three years, or £25 million over three years? at the terrible consequences of a system that we allow to operate. I wish to express my appreciation to the House Mr Vaizey: I am so sorry. I misspoke because of what Library for a very informative debate pack, prepared was written in my speech. I now understand that it is for today’s debate. £25 million over three years. I thank the hon. Lady for I know that many within our society must carry correcting me, and I will double and triple check that. responsibility—we have heard some of them named A range of agencies and organisations have a role in already—for the protection of our children. I believe preventing and responding to bullying: local authorities, that we must first start in the home, because parental local safeguarding children boards, law enforcement, responsibility is so important. Parents cannot shun schools, parents and the internet industry. Drawing on their responsibility to provide a safe environment for the breadth of expertise available, the Government are their own children. Quite often, they provide availability supporting a number of specific initiatives. For example, to the technology, and then some walk away from we are providing four organisations—I think this figure any further responsibility. By so doing, many parents is correct—with more than £4 million in total over two inadvertently expose their children to cyber-bullying years from spring 2013. [Interruption.] I am assured and inappropriate online behaviour because they do not that that is correct. We are giving £800,000 to the Diana exercise parental control. Many parents might set up a Award to identify and train 10,000 pupils as anti-bullying social network account without any understanding of ambassadors. We are giving £250,000 to Kidscape to the need for online safety.Many have little or no knowledge work in nine of London’s most economically deprived of how they should or could protect their children boroughs to train primary school professionals to deliver online. Parents, however, do not stand alone in carrying preventive and remedial strategies. We are giving £1.5 million the burden of responsibility. Society must bear its portion to BeatBullying to train 3,500 11 to 17-year-olds over of responsibility. We have heard about the responsibility two years as cyber-mentors, and we are giving £1.5 million of teachers, for example, and of this Parliament having to the National Children’s Bureau consortium to focus responsibilities that we must all shoulder. on bullied children and young people with special The figures for online bullying are staggering. The educational needs and/or disabilities, to work with Independent stated on 2 October 2013: 900 schools, parents, carers and school staff to reduce “More than a million young people are subjected to extreme bullying and its impact when it occurs. online bullying every day in Britain”. I have spoken for some time in this short debate on a The explosion of social networking sites means that, subject that is important and wide-ranging. I reiterate according to the national anti-bullying charity Ditch how welcome the debate is, and how judicious the the Label, seven out of 10 13 to 22-year-olds have been opening remarks were from the hon. Member for Upper cyber-bullied. This growing problem now affects an Bann. Building on the work of the UKCCIS—in its estimated 5.43 million young people, with girls and time, a relatively unique organisation, bringing together boys equally likely to be targeted. Cyber-bullying is now a range of stakeholders, and it remains the forum to an everyday problem for today’s children—one that I debate many of the key issues—the Government have believe is of epidemic proportions. The suggestion that developed a range of measures, such as important legislation people should simply boycott websites that fail to tackle to give teachers powers to intervene in cyber-bullying the problem is, in my opinion, far too simplistic. We as a and a campaign to work with ISPs to ensure that we can society must not accept cyber-bullying as a norm—either educate parents. I urge hon. Members to engage with for the present or future generations. social media on their procedures and thoughts. I look Facebook is the most common place for cyber-bullying forward to hearing the rest of the debate and to my hon. to occur, with studies informing us that young people Friend the Minister when he sums up. are twice as likely to be bullied there than on any other 815 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 816 social network. The Daily Telegraph revealed in an the bullying continues on the social media site, even in article of 18 October 2013 that Facebook has unveiled the young person’s own bedroom, a feeling of loneliness plans that will allow millions of teenagers to give strangers will follow. Then, following on from that loneliness access to their online profiles. The article states: comes a sense of hopelessness, and the social media “The social media site is changing its rules so that accounts set might then kick on a step further. After it has carried up by youngsters aged 13 to 17 will no longer have an automatic that person to the point of hopelessness, worthlessness privacy setting which prevents their status updates, photos and and loneliness, it then also provides them with information videos being publicly available. Until now teenage Facebook and techniques that increase the chance of suicide attempts users’ profiles have only been visible to their ‘friends’ or ‘friends being successful and decrease the chance of these young of friends.’” people receiving help. At that moment of their vulnerability, The truth often is that today’s friend may no longer be a when they are at the lowest point of their life, they are friend; in actual fact, today’s friend, especially in social shown how they could end it all and are told by the media, can become tomorrow’s enemy. In my opinion, person communicating with them why they should end these new regulations will leave hundreds of thousands it all because they are worthless—because they are of our very young people—children—exposed and nothing, because they mean nothing to anybody. vulnerable to predators and paedophiles. I suggest that every Member of this House here today Many children have revealed their innermost thoughts would do well to spend a quiet time reading the notes to their friends online. In fact, they have revealed thoughts the Library has provided for us. Many of us as Members that they would never utter in a face-to-face encounter. of Parliament have heard in our constituency offices the They revealed those thoughts because they believed stories of young people caught in the trap of cyber-bullying they had a restricted world of their friends on the and who are too scared to say or do anything. Thousands internet. Now, much of this can be shared in the public of them are targeted by internet blackmailers—sadistic domain, but it will not happen without serious abusers who operate in online chatrooms that can access consequences. Do these providers have no conscience the dark recesses of our computers, ready to make their and feel that they have no responsibility when a young innocent victim a slave. person is haunted by what they perceived was a very Dr Elly Farmer, a clinical psychologist, said: private statement now being made public and leading in “There is a desire for power and control, and getting a kick out several cases to young people taking their own lives? of causing as much pain as possible.” John Carr, secretary of the Children’s Charities’ Coalition, How sick can a person be, but the sad reality is that accuses Facebook of arrogance, stating: there are sick people out there and our young people are “You get the impression that power breeds arrogance.” vulnerable to them. I believe that this is not a subject for glib comments; it Not one of us is immune to the viciousness and is one of the most serious subjects that could ever be cruelty of these vipers. Given that there are abusive brought before this House. We must therefore help our messages like those sent to the 14-year-old girl found young people. Liam Hackett, who founded the anti-bullying dead after she received a series of messages telling her charity, Ditch the Label, rightly pointed out that, historically, to drink bleach, go get cancer and die, surely there is bullying went on in the classroom—a point on which technology that exposes the identity of the evil persons the Minister touched. Today’s bullying, however, does from whom the messages emanate. not stop there. Bullying in the classroom was repugnant and must be utterly condemned, but it stopped when The internet providers have failed, and are continuing the child arrived home. For many children today, though, to fail, our young people. That is why I believe, as the there is no escape, because the bullying in the classroom motion suggests, that Government must act to provide follows them right to their own home and, in many legal protection, and when Government do so, the cases, even to their own bedroom. courts must show their responsibility and ensure those who are responsible for cyber-bullying face lengthy Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Does the hon. prison sentences. Gentleman agree that the bullying somehow goes beyond The subject we are dealing with today is a subject that that. I do not know why, but people feel able to say can cost a person’s life. Therefore to do nothing, or do things that are far worse through that sphere than they little or only do something, will not satisfy our conscience. would say to someone’s face or in front of somebody That is why I suggest that, having read the document else. It is a strange thing, but it is clear that people feel that has been provided for us and having listened to the able to do that. speeches here today, it would do good for every one of us in the stillness and silence of our own hearts to ask Dr McCrea: Of course, anonymity will allow that to this question: “What more can we do?” The Government happen. The reality is that, as I said, many young must also ask that question: “What more can Government people will say things online that come out of their do to protect our children?” hearts at that moment, but they believe that this is for their friends. They would not have opened their heart to 2.34 pm say such things if they believed they were going to be Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): spread around. Equally, there are those who say things It is a pleasure to follow that very balanced, stark and through this medium that they would never say to a worrying speech from the hon. Member for South Antrim person face to face. That highlights the seriousness of (Dr McCrea), which was in the same vein as that of his this situation. colleague, the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Surely no one can be immune to the tragedy that Simpson), who opened the debate. This is a very important often follows. The social media are often the tool of subject and I pay tribute to the DUP for having brought today’s modern bullying at a time when a young person it to the House’s attention today. It is a very important is most vulnerable to the feeling of worthlessness. As and topical subject, and it merits greater coverage and 817 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 818

[Tim Loughton] Mark Tami: The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point and has hit the nail on the head. We can put all attention than is suggested by the number of Members the barriers and protections in place, but in terms of who are able to be here debating it today bullying, children have access to Facebook and the We have had a number of debates on related subjects other similar sites because that is part of modern life. It recently, which is a sign of the seriousness with which is how they meet and arrange parties, and if they are this House takes this issue and the threat that this not part of that network, they fear they will be excluded, problem presents to many of our constituents day in, which presents us with a difficult circle to square. day out—the young, the old, the vulnerable and everyone else as well. There has in the past perhaps been a focus Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman is right. Like it on access to harmful material on the internet—violent or not, my teenage daughters go absolutely berserk if pornography and violence generally—and its hugely their internet connection is down or they lose their insidious effect on our young people and particularly mobile or other such device. You cannot leave home on vulnerable and impressionable teenagers. Just a few without it. days ago yet another case came up and was reported in the newspapers where a boy of 12 raped his younger It is ironic that, as we heard earlier, at a time when, sister after watching online pornography, prompting a technologically, communication has never been easier—we judge to warn yesterday that can telephone, text, e-mail, tweet, use Bebo—actually, “the internet is not a benign babysitter”. we do not talk to each other much. Certainly, children We have become almost conditioned and immune to do not talk to their parents much, and vice versa. When horrific cases like that being a fact of everyday modern my wife or I sometimes get a request by e-mail from one life, but that does not make it any less important that we of my teenage daughters for supper in her bedroom, I should urgently tackle this problem. We must not take it think that we have gone quite far enough. She will not for granted. We must do much more than we are doing be getting any supper that night, if that sort of nonsense now collectively as a country, as a Government, and goes on. with all the institutions at our disposal. Important though it is, rather than just concentrating I welcome the progress made recently in various parts on access to harmful material, we need to take much of Government, in co-operation with businesses and more seriously the use of social media for malign purposes other institutions, on the proliferation of filters, which by young people against other young people, and, of we are now going to see on accessing pornography and course, by older people masquerading as young people harmful material. However, we have a lot more to do, who are seeking to groom and abuse them sexually. It is and they are just one part of what needs to be a whole extraordinary to note the number of young people who jigsaw of solutions addressing the effects the internet will still communicate with strangers—they know not can have on impressionable people who can be influenced where they come from or what their intentions are, yet by it. they have conversations with them over the internet and The bigger question is not so much how people get even meet up with them, as if they were best friends. access to the internet and how we restrict it, but why These sites will expand, and more social media they want to look at these things and why they are opportunities will of course come the way of our children. influenced by them. Why does the internet have such a Some are supposed to be age-barred, but in practice we huge influence on impressionable boys in particular, know that it is almost impossible to do that. Having and how has it come to normalise hardcore and often spoken to young people, including during my time as violent behaviour for our kids so they take this stuff chairman of the UKCCIS, I know that what really granted—stuff that we are aghast at and would have worries them is a malign posting on social media sites, been absolutely aghast at if we had had access to it in which undermines their integrity. Such a posting can go our impressionable teenage years? The internet is a viral, and in a matter minutes a huge audience may be fantastic tool that we cannot, and would not wish to, privy to some deeply offensive and abusive, personal, uninvent; it is one of the great fashioning things of the private sexual information that is now out there. In the late 20th and 21st centuries. Why do some people turn past, such information would have been in hard copy to the internet to use it to bully, harass and abuse? form—a piece of paper available to just one or two As my hon. Friend the Minister mentioned, in my people, so it had limited effect. Now, it is out there for time as children’s Minister I jointly chaired the UK ever, potentially. Council for Child Internet Safety, a really important Some 38% of teenagers have received sexually explicit body that is part of the solution. It has been providing texts or e-mails, and according to one survey that figure answers and it needs to be at the heart of the solutions is going up. Indeed, “sexting” is just one of the more we provide. We must have a multi-faceted approach, alarming manifestations of social media having become which is why that body, which brings together academia, part of our everyday lives. This can turn into bullying business, the internet service providers, the child protection when threats to send increasingly explicit photos over people, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection social media are used as a form of blackmail. Of course, Centre, Government and everybody else, is so important. we have had the recent tragic cases of young people, In my time on the UKCCIS we focused on access to including a 14-year-old girl, being driven to suicide by harmful content—violent and adult content—for young the fear of what is out there—by the threat of its being people in particular, and I think the focus is still the publicised and used against them on social media. same. I regret, however that we did not latch on earlier, as we needed to do, to the malign effects that the misuse of social media to abuse and bully is having on our Mark Tami: Does the hon. Gentleman share my children, some of them under the age of 10, every day concern that, because potential future employers are of their lives. increasingly looking at young people’s Facebook history, 819 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 820 their career prospects could be ruined and they could be why it is every bit as damaging as, and probably more denied such opportunities because of something that damaging than, the playground bullying that he and I has been put on Facebook? might have been witnesses to—certainly not part of—in our days of yore in the playground. Tim Loughton: And of course, as Members of Nominet’s “know the net” research suggests that Parliament, we know all too well that, for members of socially and economically disadvantaged children and the press—not too many are present in the Press Gallery young people are at greater risk of experiencing cyber- today—such activities are often part of their job description. bullying and suffering its adverse effects. It is more The internet affects everybody’s lives. It is un-cool, as likely to affect disabled children, young carers, children we have heard, not to be on the internet or not to have with learning disabilities and recipients of free school the latest internet-enabled mobile device. Research by meals. Cyber-bullies are picking on the most vulnerable the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to children—an even more shameful act. Facebook is the Children has shown that almost 40% of our young most common place for it, as we have heard. Facebook people are affected by cyber-bullying. A survey by has made great strides, but there is an awful lot more it Nominet, which has done a lot of work in this area, can do. Such bullying happens on Twitter, and it happens showed that 65% of young people have experienced with Instagram. There are now various new modes of online bullying, or “trolling”, or know somebody else communicating, whereby an image is sent and it self- who has. For ChildLine, which is part of the NSPCC, destructs within 10 seconds, so the evidence is gone. bullying is the second most important issue, accounting Those are all clever ways that can be used by malign for more than 10% of the counselling sessions arising people to bully even more effectively. out of the referrals it receives. What is really worrying is that only 37% of teenagers who experience online bullying report it to a social Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The network, so two thirds do not. Some 36% of those who hon. Gentleman and I have worked on many children’s do not report it said that they choose not to because it is issues together, and he will remember that the commission not taken seriously and doing so would be a waste of on stalking on which we worked found that this terrible time. Very few even report it to their parents, yet a third use of the internet was destroying people’s lives. Is it not of all parents fear that their child is actually causing good news that we quickly got the law changed on bullying on the internet, according to research by the stalking? People said that it could not be stopped, but National Children’s Bureau and McAfee. Some 45% of we proved that it could be. Now, that same commission parents have set up Facebook accounts themselves for is being re-formed to look at cyber-bullying, I hope with their own children who are under the age of 13. The the same success. recommended minimum age for having a Facebook Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman is right. A recent account is 13, yet some parents are clearly ignoring debate in this place showed what can be done when we that. Indeed, Facebook itself has discussed removing put our minds to it and listen to people who have that age threshold. However, that is one of the few solutions, rather than always listening to those who safeguards that provides guidance to parents on the age focus on the problems. at which it is appropriate for their children to be exposed to these very powerful forms of social media. Only one The Department for Education’s own research shows in 10 parents believe that their own children are safe that 30% of secondary school-aged children have been online, yet over a third have never had a conversation deliberately targeted, threatened or humiliated by abuse with their children about the dangers of the internet, on mobile phones or the internet. Cyber-bullying is an and only one in five bothers to set up controls on their even more cowardly form of what we might have known internet devices. as playground bullying, because it often hides behind anonymity, done by people in the comfort of their own This is an extraordinary situation, a perfect storm. bedroom. However, the psychological effects can be Schools are not doing enough to teach the hazards of every bit as damaging as physical, face-to-face bullying, the internet effectively. We need better sex and relationship and such bullying has the capacity to be spread cancer-like education as armour to deal with some of the sexual among a much wider body of peers, at the press of a abuse on the internet. Parents are afraid of appearing button. It can undermine a young person’s confidence ignorant and do not communicate with their children and self-esteem, at a time when they are still finding about the hazards, and the social media companies are their own identity. It can lead to depression, truancy, still spending too much time on maximising the number self-harm and even suicide; to a fear of returning to of people attracted to their sites, the revenues earned by school to face one’s friends, who may be the authors of the sites and the stock market capitalisation as the sites some of this cyber-bullying; and to a feeling of being are launched on the American stock market. The Home permanently unsafe. Affairs Select Committee reported earlier this year that too many of our social media companies remain far too Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Being bullied by complacent and laid back about the perils of the internet electronic means could actually be worse than being for young and impressionable people. bullied in the playground. At least in the playground, The other big problem is that abuse of the internet people perhaps have their friends around to sustain lacks consequences. That was behind my earlier question them. Being bullied privately, perhaps in a quiet place, to the Minister when I asked him how many people could really prey on someone’s mind. were being prosecuted and actually feeling the force of the law. How many people are being shown that what Tim Loughton: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, they are doing is not just a bit of harmless fun, a bit of and of course in such situations there are no witnesses ribbing or a bit of playfully taking the mick out of around. People suffer in silence, and there is not necessarily someone, but that it is dangerous abuse that can ultimately anybody on hand to report such behaviour to. That is be fatal? 821 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 822

David Simpson: Recent figures on trolls who have Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman is right. Cyber- stopped abusing people online have shown that many of bullying might start in the playground, but it can continue them admitted looking for the most vulnerable targets in the bedroom of the anonymous person who is carrying and making their lives a misery. They admitted that that out the campaign. behaviour was like a drug, and that they would move on Our social media companies need to do much more. to another vulnerable target. Something more needs to We need far more effective in-your-face reporting be done about this. mechanisms, proper hot buttons and faster, more effective mediation and adjudication on what is acceptable. Also, Tim Loughton: The hon. Gentleman is right. It takes there must be consequences, so that the people who an extraordinary mentality to want to use the fantastic post this stuff can have it taken down and have their site technology of the internet to abuse and, ultimately, to confiscated. In some cases, we should not shy away cause harm and even death. This is perhaps similar to from naming and shaming the perpetrators in school those people who invent computer viruses and get a and preventing them from using social media. kick out of causing huge inconvenience and misery to As the House has heard, I have my own long-standing large numbers of people. troll who continues to post malicious material about my I have been a bit gloomy so far, but I want to end by family. For many months, I have been complaining to mentioning a few of the good things. Good progress Google, which hosts his blog. This person has posted has been made. The work of the Prime Minister and the pictures of my teenage, under-age daughters on his Government internationally with the FBI on promoting blog, alongside abusive comments. They have not been filters and using greater powers to remove harmful removed. When he was spoken to about it, he replaced images from the internet is very welcome. The profile of their faces with horses’ heads, alongside equally abusive the problem has certainly been raised, which is also comments. After about six months, Google got round welcome. We now have better guidance on e-safety in to doing something. It sent me this response: schools, although my complaint is that that focuses too “Hello. Thanks for reaching out to us. We have reviewed your much on the mechanics of the technology and not request. At this time, Google has decided not to take action. enough on the ethics of what is good and not good and Blogger hosts third-party content. It is not a creator or mediator what cannot be trusted on the internet. of that content. We encourage you to resolve any disputes directly with the individual who posted the content.” The Department for Education has awarded £4 million- worth of grants to BeatBullying, the Diana Award, That is not an effective way of dealing with clear and Kidscape and the National Children’s Bureau, all of obvious abuse, and I am still on at Google—and it is not which are excellent organisations doing some really just Google—to take this sort of abuse seriously. If it is good practical stuff, but it is a drop in the ocean when unable to do that for a Member of Parliament who has we consider how many hundreds of millions of people a platform here, imagine how many of our children are using social media. The Education Act 2011 gives must be suffering in silence because they have no means teachers greater powers to search for and delete of drawing attention to this deeply abusive, offensive inappropriate images on electronic devices, which is and completely unnecessary form of cyber-bulling. welcome, as is the fact that Ofsted should now be We also need better sentencing guidelines. There are inspecting behaviour as part of its assessment of schools some bits of legislation, but we have not yet seen people and looking closely at the effectiveness of internal policies being hauled before the courts. Frankly, the Crown to prevent bullying and cyber-bullying. I also welcome Prosecution Service and the Director of Public Prosecutions the additional funding to enable the Internet Watch must do better in this regard. They complain that this is Foundation to use its new powers to take down a grey area and that the thresholds are high, but cyber- inappropriate sites. bullying is cyber-violence and if that violence were There is more that we need to do, however. We need committed in person in playgrounds or in pubs, it would to empower parents and pupils. We need to ensure that be dealt with properly by the police and the courts. schools not only educate the kids but invite the parents Cyber-bullying should be no different. in so that they can learn what the kids have learnt, so I have recently written to all Members of Parliament, that they know what to look out for when they go back with the help of Nominet, asking for cases in which home. This is just like healthy eating: schools are very their constituents had been the victims of cyber-bullying good at giving kids healthier meals and telling them so that we can put together some best practice to use about healthy eating, only to let them go home and be when our constituents come to our surgeries when their stuffed full of pies by parents who do not have the right children and family members have experienced this attitude. We also need more in-your-face guidance from kind of bullying. We as Members of Parliament also the Government, through the Department for Education experience cyber-bullying. I have spoken to Mr Speaker and the Home Office, about the real dangers of what is about this and he is sympathetic to our receiving guidance going on. on how to help ourselves to guard against trolling and cyber-bullying, which we should not have to accept as Mr Sheerman: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it we try to do our jobs. is always possible to recognise a school that has a big This is a problem that affects all of us: the young, the question mark hanging over it when its head teacher old and, in particular, the most vulnerable. It is just a says, “My responsibility ends at the school gate”? It technological advance—albeit a particularly insidious could never end there in relation to bullying, because one—from playground bullying to cyber-bulling, but it the bullies used to hang out on the street outside. can go as far as to involve threats of terrorism, as Bullying of that kind, and bullying on the internet, certain Members have found out to their cost. There is must be tackled by head teachers managing their schools no magic bullet, but we all have a responsibility better properly. to educate our children. 823 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 824

Schools should have a designated teacher who is However, legislative difficulties arise in defining the responsible for anti-bullying work, and we should have difference between cyber-bullying and cyber-stalking, much more effective procedures and mechanisms for and in defining each of those concepts. That brings us reporting incidents of bullying, including cyber-bullying, into the arena of cyber-defamation law. Cyber-bullying in schools. Cyber-bullying should be included and referred has proved difficult to legislate on because of freedom to in all policies on behaviour, anti-bullying and acceptable of speech issues. Absurdly, many people argue that such use. All teachers should be given training, support and legislation violates the bully’s freedom of speech. I find guidance on dealing with bullying, including cyber-bullying. it unacceptable that a bully should feel that he is being Those are just some of the recommendations in the prevented from saying something. However, this all BeatBullying “Virtual Violence” report. We need clear comes back to the fact that such bullying is anonymous guidance along those lines from the Department for and from a distance, and that it can cause people to take Education to schools on whether or not they are bound certain actions, in a mistaken belief, to try to protect by the curriculum, and not the current postcode lottery themselves. The hon. Member for Upper Bann is and the laissez-faire approach that I fear we have. We right to say that serious consideration has to be given to need clear guidance from the Home Office to justice the legislative consequences or cyber-bullying, because institutions. at the moment, as the hon. Member for East Worthing We also need greater social responsibility from our and Shoreham said, cyber-bullying has had little social media companies. They need to monitor, and we consequences. In Northern Ireland, a review of sentencing need to monitor, how good they are at reporting this is taking place and reference must be made to cyber- stuff and taking it down, and how quickly they do it. bullying in that. We must also have the primary legislation They need to invest in moderators and to signpost here and in the devolved institutions to deal with this better where young people can go to get help. Above all, issue. there needs to be consequences for cyber-bullying and the Government need to take a greater lead. I have Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Does the sympathy with what Democratic Unionist party Members hon. Lady share my concern that the law in Northern were saying about making cyber-bullying an offence, Ireland does not require schools even to mention cyber- because, as I said earlier and I say again, cyber-bullying bullying in their anti-bullying policies? The local Minister is cyber-violence. We would criminalise it in any other for Education needs to get on with it. context and we need now to look seriously at how the law can treat it equally seriously. Ms Ritchie: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I absolutely agree that more urgent, robust Several hon. Members rose— and assertive action needs to be taken to deal with this Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. issue. I believe that there is not one family of a Member Before I call the next speaker, I ought to remind the in this House who have not been bullied, either face to House that we have another debate to follow, and I have face or by cyber-bullying, which is much more insidious. received indications that, as with this debate, a large The statistics are interesting. Ofcom found this year number of hon. Members wish to speak. If Members that some 43% of five to 15-year-olds have a social who are about to speak restrict their remarks to networking profile. Ofcom has also found that 81% of approximately 10 minutes, everyone who wishes to speak teenagers own a smartphone, with 60% of teenagers will have a chance to do so. claiming that they are highly addicted to smartphone usage. This year, it also found that children and young 3.1 pm people are now spending 17 hours a week online, although I would judge that the real figure is much higher. To see Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): It is a that, one has only to witness the use of this technology pleasure to follow the thoughtful, reflective contribution by children, be it on the school bus, in school or in a of the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham family or other environment. (Tim Loughton), and I commend the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) and his party for tabling This debate is all about what we do to deal with the this motion on the very important topic of cyber-bullying. problem and what political action is required. Like my As the Minister said, there is no doubt that cyber-bullying colleagues in the DUP,I believe that the British Government is perpetrated with a large degree of anonymity and and the devolved institutions have to give serious distance, which makes it particularly insidious and consideration to legislative consequences and to legislation frightening for children. In many instances it has led to itself. Until the Government here and the devolved truancy from school, self-harm, suicide and many other institutions take it seriously, people who are dedicated issues. We all know that cyber-bullying can be done in to this form of bullying will get away with it. many situations, and people who commit it say things I have no doubt that there needs to be lobbying for on the internet, Twitter and Facebook that they would sustained nationwide campaigns similar to those for not say to someone face to face. When someone reads road safety, including TV advertisements, radio broadcasts such a comment about themselves on the internet, and adverts, and video. An onus and obligation should Facebook or Twitter, it can be particularly intimidating. be placed on the provision of funding and sponsorship In fact, people have even been purged as a result, so it is from the big players such as the search engines, including important to reflect on that. Google, the social media platforms, such as Twitter, and Cyber-bullying and legislation throw up various mobile phone companies, such as O2, Orange and Vodafone. definitional issues. Cyber-bullying is defined as: An action plan must be put in place to deliver awareness “when the Internet, cell phones or other devices are used to send talks to parents, community and church leaders, educators, or post text or images intended to hurt or embarrass another young people and children about this vice, which is a person”. form of cyber-terrorism. 825 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 826

[Ms Ritchie] guidance and support and legislation are to be effective, they must be relevant in an ever changing landscape The hon. Member for Upper Bann referred to the and not be too focused on specific technologies or work being done in the Republic of Ireland and how it software. We must ensure that young people, parents, is approaching legislation. The British and Irish teachers and others have the skills and the understanding Governments, along with the devolved institutions and to protect themselves and others from dangers across a the Governments of the Channel Islands and the Isle of range of platforms. Man, are part of the British-Irish Council. I urge the The dangers and the consequences of persistent cyber- British-Irish Council to give immediate attention to this bullying have become horribly clear. In a study published issue of cyber-bullying, because the Council would be a in 2010 in the Archives of General Psychiatry, a team of good context in which it could be discussed and in Finnish researchers found that cyber-bullying puts strains which Governments and devolved institutions could on mental health that include problems processing emotions, consider the matter and take positive legislative action. disruptions in socially appropriate behaviour, and an The other area I wish to discuss is that relating to impaired ability to interact successfully with others. Children’s Commissioners. We have one in Northern Those findings are supported by professionals working Ireland, one in the other devolved institutions and one with children who have been bullied in my constituency. here in Britain. An immediate conference should be Red Balloon is an excellent organisation providing a held at which they could reflect on this subject, because supportive learning environment for children who are they have a dedicated responsibility for children, in outside mainstream schooling because they have been order to see what can be done. [Interruption.] Iam subjected to severe levels of bullying. Angela Francis, conscious of the time, Madam Deputy Speaker. As of who is the co-ordinator of the Red Balloon Learner 20 November, Canada introduced legislation covering Centre in Norwich, has highlighted her concerns over matters such as distribution, removal, forfeiting the the impact that ever increasing levels of anxiety relating device, reimbursement to victims, court orders and to cyber-bullying can have on young people’s mental investigative powers. We should be examining that strong health. The consequences on a child’s well-being can be Canadian legislation to see where we could take action. devastating. In supporting this motion, I suggest that tackling The Norfolk survey highlights that the majority of these issues and the gaps in education and awareness those who are bullied reported being bullied to a parent are paramount, as is legislation. Cyber-bullying will or carer, and roughly two fifths reported being bullied continue to have a profound effect on our young people’s to a member of school staff. There are vast swathes of lives and on our future society. Parents feel largely information on cyber-bullying available to parents, carers helpless in this matter, and the debate today should be a and teachers by charities, local authorities, social networks, warning to the Government that we all want to see and the 100 organisations that make up the anti-bullying action of a legislative kind to tackle this form of terrorism alliance. as it is so insidious in our wider communities today. Given that cyber-bullying can take place anywhere, children themselves need to be empowered and taught 3.10 pm about the dangers from a young age. They need to be Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): Cyber-bullying able to identify cyber-bullying, know what steps to take strikes at victims at any time and in any place—at home, when they encounter it and encourage other children to at school, on a bus or out with family or friends. It takes stand against it. Facebook has an anti cyber-bullying place on a range of different platforms, including text, toolkit for those aged 13 to 18. It would be even more social networks, video, photo messaging, internet chatrooms, helpful if all social media sites and chatrooms encouraged in-game messages, e-mail and more. Nearly half of five young people to take a tutorial on their own anti-bullying to 15-year-olds own a mobile phone, and the use of policies at the time of setting up an account. tablet computers has trebled over the same age group I welcome the new computing curriculum that will since last year, and almost all have regular internet see schools putting an increased prominence on the access at home or at school. The channels through teaching of e-safety from next September. It means that which cyber-bullying is perpetuated are never far away children in key stages 1 and 2 will be taught about using from any child. The experience for the victim is made all technology safely, including issues such as sexting and the more chilling by the fact that the tormentor can act cyber-bullying, and I hope that teachers will feel in a anonymously and in the mind of the abused can be strong position to support their pupils as a result. Many anyone they know or do not know. schools are already doing great work in this area, A survey undertaken by Norfolk county council found encouraged by initiatives such as the PICTFOR Make that nearly a quarter of children in Norfolk primary IT Happy competition. Valley primary school in my and secondary schools had experienced cyber-bullying constituency entered this year’s competition. Year 6 at school. Bullying through text messages was the most children created a series of infographics about staying common, followed by the use of social media sites. The safe online and created a video of their work. Their survey highlighted the wide range of young people’s brilliant entry, which was praised by judges, demonstrated online presences through which cyber-bullying takes how children can be empowered to deal with unwanted place. Ofcom’s recent report into young people’s use of messages and to keep themselves safe from all forms of media emphasises the rapid changes in the use of different cyber-abuse. technologies by children over periods as short as just The best way to deal with any form of bullying is to one year. stop it before it starts. Bullying Stinkz, which is a new Technology is continually evolving. Online platforms anti-bullying campaign set up by my constituents Jacqueline come and go, and young people have a healthy appetite Hitchcock-Wyatt and her daughter Ellie, aims to do for trying out new technologies and experiences. If just that. They have received celebrity backing, and 827 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 828 recently recorded a pop song to highlight the campaign “28 per cent of 11-16 year olds have been deliberately targeted, with children of Parkside school in Norwich. Their threatened or humiliated by an individual or group through the approach is to reinforce positive messages of diversity, use of mobile phones or the internet. For over a quarter of these, starting at a very young age, and to empower children this experience was ongoing, meaning that the individual was continuously targeted by the same person or group over a sustained to speak up before patterns of bullying behaviour become period of time. This suggest that one-in-13 secondary-aged school established. children have experienced persistent and intentional cyberbullying.” I welcome today’s debate. We need to focus on the Given that there are 4.4 million secondary-aged children comprehensive issues of e-safety for all young people. in the UK, those figures can be projected to suggest that Good work is being done, and needs to be continually 350,222 children have suffered persistent and insidious developed, encouraged, prioritised and supported by bullying inflicted via technology.That shows the numerical the Government to ensure that everyone is adequately vastness of the issue, if hon. Members want to put it equipped to deal with the appalling behaviour of cyber- into figures. The report goes on to note: bullying. As this debate has highlighted today, we can “Purposeful recurring attacks can easily overwhelm a young and should do more. person being cyberbullied, leaving them feeling anxious, tormented and increasingly marginalised.” 3.16 pm In some cases, cyber-bullying has been found to Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I am pleased to contribute to children and young people self-harming have the opportunity to speak in this important debate. or even taking their own lives. Other Members have Cyber-technology should not be a threat to people; it spoken about that. Many of my hon. Friends will should be a bonus and one of the good things in life. On have heard of the tragic case of Hannah Smith, a cyber Monday, sales worth some £600 million were 14-year-old Leicestershire girl, who killed herself after achieved. Of course, for those with Ulster bank accounts being bullied on a social networking site. Hannah’s case whose cards did not work last night when they went to is not an isolated one. Peter Wanless, chief executive of pay their bill in the restaurant, the petrol station or the the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to shop, the card was not worth the plastic it was made Children, said: of—but that is a different issue. None the less it highlights “This is a tragic case where Hannah felt like she had no other option but to end her life. The cruel nature of cyberbullying the advances that cyber-technology has brought—the allows perpetrators to remain anonymous and hide behind their good things—and the menaces. screens.” I want to focus on cyber-bullying among children He then called for greater measures to be taken against and young people and the impact it can have on their cyber-bullying. He said: well-being. Although I recognise that cyber-bullying is a “This is something that must be tackled before it gets out of problem among adults as well, internet use is increasing hand. We must ensure young people have the confidence to speak all the time among children and young people. It seems out against this abuse, so that they don’t feel isolated and without that each day the internet is becoming more mobile and anywhere to turn.” more accessible. It is plain and clear that we urgently need to address Earlier this year, a report by the National Society for those issues. One of the key ways we can do that is by the Prevention of Cruelty to Children found that 91% of seeking to inform and assist parents and guardians all five to 15-year-olds and 100% of 12 to 15-year-olds whose children might be exposed to such abuse online. used the internet in 2012, which gives us some indication Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): A of the importance of it. The internet is one of the most couple of years ago, I was threatened online and a profound inventions in human history, and, of course, severe threat was made to my life. One of the reasons I it brings huge benefits for children and young people in went to the police was not so much to get the abuse that they are better informed and better connected to stopped for me personally, but to ensure that others, the world around them. That is what it is supposed to be particularly vulnerable people and young people, could about. But the internet can also be a tool for harm and see that there is a remedy. Does my hon. Friend agree abuse. As Members from all parts of the House will that if people report the issue and go to the right know—they have spoken about this matter very passionately authorities action can be taken and the perpetrators can and knowledgably—children and young people can often be caught and punished? suffer as a result of cyber-bullying, which has significant detrimental effects on them, damaging their sense of Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that valuable worth and wrecking their self-esteem. As an MP from practical example of what happened to him and for Northern Ireland, I am particularly concerned that saying how he responded in his fearless way. It shows cyber-bullying is a significant and growing problem in that if he can do it, everyone else can do it, and that is our schools, as my hon. Friends the Members for South leadership as it should be. Antrim (Dr McCrea) and for Upper Bann (David Simpson) Children and young people are now able to access the indicated in their contributions. According to research internet almost anywhere in a range of different ways conducted by the Northern Ireland Department of through iPads, mobile phones and other portable devices. Education in 2011, 15.5% of year 6 pupils and 17% of It is difficult for parents to monitor their children’s use year 9 pupils indicated that they had experienced cyber- of the internet, even if they wish to do so, beyond the bullying in the past couple of months. That gives us an lowest estimations. It is difficult even for those who are idea of the size of the problem. learned in this technology, who still cannot be entirely In January this year, the Nominet Trust published sure of what their children are doing. research on the level of cyber-bullying in the UK. Its report “Virtual Violence Two: progress and the challenges Bob Stewart: As a parent of four teenage children, I in tackling cyberbullying” makes a number of important have learned a heck of a lot today and I thank right findings. The report says that hon. and hon. Members on the DUP Benches for 829 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 830

[Bob Stewart] and, in so doing, help to protect children from stumbling on inappropriate material and—of greater importance introducing the debate. I have learned that I do not to this debate—to protect them from cyber-bullying. know enough about cyber-bullying and that as a parent I have to get with it, understand it and discuss it with my teenagers. I suspect that the House will agree with 3.25 pm me on that and will forgive me for intervening to share Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): It is rather intimidating with it something that I have learned. to follow all the wonderful contributions that we have heard. I thank the DUP for choosing this topic. Last time I contributed to an Opposition day debate for Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his which they had chosen the topic, it was on suicide admission. We have all admitted that we can learn prevention. I am glad that the DUP has chosen yet something every day, and so we can. another important and challenging issue. A recent Ofcom report shows that 68% of 12 to During that debate, I talked about my personal experience 15-year-olds in the UK have a profile on a social networking and a friend of mine who committed suicide when I was site. Among nine to 12-year-olds, who are too young at school. The impact of that on my life has never left officially to have their own Facebook account, 36% report me. That poor young lad was bullied, but none of us having a Facebook profile, with 13% saying that they knew about it. He hid it successfully and sadly, the use it regularly. How aware are parents of their children’s outcome was catastrophic as he took his life. I also access to social networking sites and what goes on mentioned cyber-bullying. In my day, people could go through those sites? That is the question we are all home and get away from it. That is not the case today; asking. there is simply no let up. In the family home, the PC The internet is changing fast and parents are clearly might be sat in the corner of the living room, representing concerned about the rapid proliferation of harmful the constant menace of what is going on at school or in online content and what their children might be viewing. the workplace. It might be in the sitting room or the Ofcom highlights the fact that 79% of parents of children bedroom, a constant reminder of the bully out there in aged five to 15 who use the internet at home say that the wider world. As I said at the time, it is almost like they have put in place rules about internet use. They having a silent bully in one’s own home. have done it, but is it working? According to a report It gets worse, because, as other hon. Members have driven by Dr Sonia Livingstone at the London School said, we now all enjoy having technology we can carry of Economics, 81% of parents feel the need to talk to around with us. For victims of bullying, there is no escape their children about what they do and view online and whatsoever. Other hon. Members gave examples of that more than half stay nearby when their child is on the and we just heard about Hannah Smith and her terrible internet. If only that was possible in every case. experience. Over the past couple of days I have looked Those last two statistics are encouraging, demonstrating at other such experiences. Shannon Gallagher took her a real desire on the part of many parents to be actively own life less than two months after her 13-year-old sister involved in their children’s online experience. In that had killed herself. At the time, there were allegations of context we need to empower them to help their children cyber-bullying. Apparently, the teenager had referred the to address issues such as cyber-bullying. This will inform bullying to the networking website and hours before her those parents who are interested and concerned and death posted online comments about teenagers who were also, we hope, prompt those who are not taking an taunting her. It is a terrible problem that we must address. active interest in the safety of their children online to do I am also very concerned about the suicide websites so. In that regard, I draw the attention of the House to that now exist. It really is a terrible phenomenon. Just the excellent Online Safety Bill, which will have its this week we saw the example of a 20-year-old man in Second Reading in the other place on Friday. The Bill Canada who tried to commit suicide online. He set his has two key provisions, one of which is designed to bedroom on fire, having taken drugs and alcohol. Some engage with the challenge of cyber-bullying. of the people who were watching—I do not understand In the first instance, the Bill places a statutory duty that phenomenon—complained that they could not see on internet service providers and mobile phone operators what was happening because of the smoke that was to exclude all adult content, while providing the user filling the room. That is a dreadful example of the way with the option of accessing such material subject to in which cyber-bullying can create terrible problems for robust age verification to demonstrate that they are many young people. 18 or over. The provision is designed to help parents Stonewall has done work on the impact of bullying protect their children from stumbling, either accidentally on young gay people. Research for it by the university of or on purpose, on inappropriate material. Cambridge in “The School Report” of 2012, a survey of more than 1,600 lesbian, gay and bisexual young people In the second instance, the Bill places a duty on in Britain’s schools, found that 55% had experienced internet service providers and mobile phone operators homophobic bullying in school, 23% had experienced to provide prominent, easily accessible and clear information homophobic cyber-bullying, and 10% were bullied by about online safety to subscribers. It also places a duty text message. Some of the quotes that appeared on the on the Secretary of State to educate parents of children website were worrying. Sixteen-year-old Harry said: under 18 on online safety. That key educational provision “Last summer, I was attacked on Facebook through a series of has been made primarily to engage with online challenges comments and wall posts calling me a ‘fag’.” such as cyber-bullying and sexting. Someone else said: The Bill is a noble proposal. It could and should “Sometimes I’d get messages on Facebook from people I didn’t move a long way towards achieving what we are trying know threatening me and telling me not to come back into to do today. I hope that the Government will embrace it school.” 831 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 832

That sort of language is outrageous and we need to deal when opening the post, because that message had set with it. Yesterday, we all saw the Olympic diver come such an awful example. As a responsible employer, I felt out publicly, and I looked at the comments that were that it was right for me to report it to the police, but I posted on his Twitter page. I shall not repeat some of was quite surprised by the criticism I received from the language, because it is pretty horrific. One person some members of the public who basically said, “You said that he was no longer a fan of Tom Daley because have to grow up, because that is just what happens on of the “choice”, as that person called it, that he had Twitter and Facebook.” made. Someone else said: The point I am trying to make is that if we as “I am now ashamed of my country…we can’t have a…fag individuals do not stand up to such comments, how can representing us”. we expect people who are being victimised in their I wonder how many of those people would dare to say schools and workplaces to do so? We need to change those things to the individual’s face. I do not believe attitudes so that we can then change the culture. We that many of them would. need to say that it is frankly not on for people to be What action can we take? Stonewall has discussed the subjected to that, for the sake of those victims who have work that schools could do, and there are a number of made the ultimate sacrifice and taken their lives as a steps that they can take to prevent cyber-bullying and to result of bullying. Let us use the laws we have so that we support young people, whether gay or straight, particularly enjoy the benefits and opportunities that technology those who might suffer from mental health problems as can provide. a result of such bullying. It is important to promote clear policies on tackling bullying of all sorts, and to specify the need to tackle homophobic bullying in the 3.35 pm classroom and beyond. Those policies should make Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): It is a clear both what cyber-bullying is and that cyber-bullying pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart of school pupils is against school rules, regardless of Andrew), who made a heartfelt speech. I congratulate where it takes place. That would go a long way towards the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) on sorting this out. initiating this important and timely debate. We need to We must prosecute abusers. The Communications pay more attention to this problem, so I am grateful to Act 2003 clearly says that it is illegal to send messages him. that are grossly offensive, indecent or menacing in character. Members have spoken about the exaggerated behaviour I welcome the fact that the Crown Prosecution Service seen on the internet, and we need to pay more attention brought more than 2,000 prosecutions in 2012, but I to that. Bullying on the net and on social media is want to know the true extent of the problem, because clearly not like bullying in the playground, and for a many people do not come forward and report their number of reasons. The Minister might want to do experiences. some research into the factors that change people’s The examples that I have given show the extremes of behaviour and into how their behaviour changes. what might happen to someone who is subjected to cyber-bullying, and being constantly harangued in one’s Anonymity is clearly a big problem in this regard. own home via the computer or via one’s own phone has When talking about crime on the net more generally, led some people to take their life, which is awful. The we have considered whether it might be possible—I impact can be equally bad for young people’s mental believe that it is—to make a clearer connection between health, and it can result in their confidence being attacked. a person’s identity on the net and their identity in the In some cases, it can mean complete social exclusion, real world. Tackling that problem is central to tackling which needs to be addressed. many of the problems we have on the net. The behaviour We need a change in social attitudes. As technology of young people, in particular, on the net can become has changed and improved significantly so, I fear, has exaggerated partly because there is no feedback, so our tendency to accept the bad aspects that come with they do not need to face the person they are bullying or it. Too often we accept that harassment or intimidating to see the consequences. That is clearly part of the comments are part of being on Twitter or Facebook, problem. and too often we hear people stating, “Well, it’s what I do not wish to suggest that there is a problem with happens.” Why should we accept that? I am not talking young people only, because I think that people’s behaviour about free speech or robust debate—we all accept that, in general shifts with technology. If I was to say quietly and we all get those messages—as there is a difference to the Minister in a private place that I was going to tell between robust debate and intimidating language that him something that I did not want him to repeat, I am makes people fearful. If we do not deal with this, we sure that he would respect that. If I was to write him a will dissuade victims from coming forward, stripping personal letter, it might be put in a box in his office and them of the confidence that there is help available to would not be published all over the media. However, if I deal with it. was to send something by e-mail, it could immediately I want to refer to—how can I put it?—the local be broadcast nationally and internationally. We had difficulty that I had in Strangers bar a few months ago. such an incident in my constituency, when someone After that incident I received all sorts of e-mails, some took a memory stick containing mental health records positive and some rather negative, including one that out of an office and managed to lose it. That is because was incredibly threatening. Someone said that they people’s attitudes to other people are distanced by the thought I had not been attacked enough, and they technology, and we need to understand that more. We looked forward to the day the IRA re-formed and need to look at the work that has been done by Professor bombed my party. That sort of behaviour is completely Susan Greenfield on changes that take place in the unacceptable. The people who work in my office should brain when people use technology, because there is not be subjected to such comments. They were frightened clearly a profound change. 833 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 834

[Helen Goodman] got in touch with Ask.fm. Unfortunately, the Government in London did not do so. I went to a meeting with the We are looking for a strategy that cuts across different Latvian ambassador. Given international hosting and Departments and arenas. There has been a lot of discussion the international movement of messages, it is vital that about the role of schools, which clearly is important. I the Government up their game in tackling this with our would like the Minister to clarify whether the learning European colleagues. that the Government are putting into the curriculum As hon. Members have pointed out, the internet has will be in the IT part or in the personal, social, health great potential for learning and exploration, but if it is and economic education part. The Opposition think to be safe, it cannot be lawless. The National Society that it really needs to part of PSHE, because this is for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children believes that about responsibility and relationships. one in five children is bullied online. Everybody has I commend to the Minister work that I saw a couple a responsibility to put an end to this, so I still do of months ago in Denmark, where people have made not understand why the Prime Minister’s summer curriculum materials to be used by parents and children, announcements about child online safety contained who are already doing so in after-school classes. Virtually nothing about safeguarding children on social media, every Member has said how important it is to involve or why the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and families in this, because parents need support and help. Sport did not include it in her action list following her Again, we can learn from the experience of other countries. conference with the industry. I am grateful to the Under- Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the Another aspect that has emerged is the disappointment hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) for offering to that people have experienced when they have complained arrange a meeting with the industry and I want to take to the industry or to public sector professionals and the him up on it, because I think we can do more. police. Another strand of any intelligence strategy must surely involve proper training for the professionals—the I would be grateful if Ministers could look into a police, the courts and the social workers, as well as couple of legal points. First, is the existing legal framework school teachers. adequate? Are the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, the Malicious Communications Act 1988 and the The Minister said that 900 schools will be reached Telecommunications Act 1984 specific enough to deal through the charitable work that is being supported. I properly with cyber-bullying? It is clear that the activity very much hope that this is not going to be, as it is growing, so if there is a loophole, it needs to be filled. sounded, slightly London-centric. Although 900 schools A systematic look at the legal provisions is essential. sounds like quite a lot, there are 23,000 schools in this Secondly, it would be helpful to look at what obligations country. As the hon. Member for East Worthing and social media have to respond quickly and substantively Shoreham (Tim Loughton) said, we do not want a to complaints about cyber-bullying. The hon. Member postcode lottery. for East Worthing and Shoreham made a lot of intelligent The hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) points about this. He said that there need to be consequences spoke about the responsibilities of parents and pointed for the individual. I think we also need to consider out that many parents are irresponsible. Unfortunately, consequences for the industry if it has not set up proper adults—parents—are using the net to abuse their own systems on its websites so that people can press panic children. This just shows the depths that people can buttons and the perpetrators can be found and dealt plumb and the complexity of dealing with these problems. with. It is clear, as the hon. Gentleman has said, that the The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham industry is completely happy to devote a lot of time, spoke about the inadequate response—that is the politest energy and money to gaining customers and increasing thing one could say about it—that he received from its profits, but the tempo is much slower when it comes Google after he had contacted it. Indeed, when Google to protecting vulnerable young people. That is simply directed me to what it thought was its excellent advice not acceptable. about young people meeting in the real world people For example, Facebook has an age limit of 13, but it they had met online, I was quite surprised to see that it wishes to expose those young people to everything that was a cartoon advising them that if they did so, it is available to adults on the internet. That is completely should be in a public place. As a piece of advice to irresponsible. The age limit of 13 was set up because it young people, that is worse than pitiful. It is very fits with Californian law. It does not fit with English important to get the industry up to speed on all this, as law. This country has no system for telling whether the Minister said, and to take an international, as well somebody is 12, 13 or 14. Either Facebook must change as a national, approach. its model and treat 13-year-olds as minors, or it must Hon. Members have noted that the majority of young raise the age level at which people can access it. It people now accept cyber-bullying as part of everyday cannot have it both ways. It cannot encourage children life, as do their parents. According to the Anti-Bullying and young people into its site and then treat it as an Alliance, 40% of parents and 44% of teachers said in a adult space. survey that they do not know how to deal with cyber- I believe that Ministers can do many things in schools, bullying. I hope that the Government are going to tell with families and by looking at the legal framework. us that they do know how to deal with it and that they will engage more energetically with our European colleagues. 3.48 pm In August 2013, Hannah Smith killed herself following Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): May I begin a series of abusive messages on the social media site, by thanking everyone, from all parties, who has taken Ask.fm, which is hosted in Latvia and has been linked part in this debate? In moving the motion, my hon. to four suicides in this country and Ireland since 2010. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) When this happened in Ireland, the Irish Government set the right tone and set the debate on the right course 835 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 836 by making the point that this is not a party political I also agree with the hon. Lady about the idea of issue and that there is a large degree of consensus on having a strong campaign, including advertising, to up both sides of the House. He highlighted the very good the profile of all this and to encourage parents to get to work he has initiated in his own constituency in setting know more about what their youngsters and young up a forum to help parents in particular. That was a people are up to, and educate them about what steps very good practical example of what we can do. they can take to help. The hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) said I thank the hon. Member for Norwich South (Simon that he had learned something as a result of this debate. Wright) for his contribution from the Liberal Democrat We have learned how serious the issue is, but we have Benches. He made a very interesting point, which I had also picked up some points on how we can tackle it that not thought of, about making a tutorial available when are worth taking back to our constituencies to share people sign up to a new Facebook account, for instance, with our partners in schools and elsewhere. to teach them how to report and deal with abuse. That I join the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for is an excellent idea that is worth bringing up in our Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), in thanking discussions with the industry. I entirely agree with him the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and that we can and should do more. Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) for My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim his offer of a meeting between Members and the industry. Shannon) pointed out, as many hon. Members have We are certainly interested in following up on that done, the benefits of the internet, which is a wonderful excellent idea. invention that has brought and continues to bring massive good to so many, particularly in the developing world. The Under-Secretary made the important point that The fact that, as he said, the internet can be a tool for all forms of bullying are unacceptable, which is the case, harm is the real worry that parents and others now but in recent years, we have seen the rise of its most have. In recent days, we have heard all about the dark insidious form—cyber-bullying. Everybody is clearly net, and about how people can access all kinds of running to catch up with the technology and all its services and goods. Quite frankly, it is beyond belief effects, with the exponential growth in the use of various that people can actually do that. platforms and so on. The learning curve is steep for us all, but the more we can work together and collaborate I thank the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on the issues, the better. for his speech in this debate—as he said, he also took part in one of our previous ones—and for making an My hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim important point. He cited a number of horrific cases, (Dr McCrea) pointed strongly to the responsibilities of the most recent of which was the bullying that has parents in the home and of schools, as well as, like many resulted from the coverage about Tom Daley.The incidents hon. Members, to the responsibilities of those who run involving the hon. Gentleman and his friend illustrate social media sites, many of which have failed to respond why we need to bring this matter into the open and adequately. discuss it more. That is why we brought it forward for The hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham debate. The more that we air these issues, highlight (Tim Loughton) rightly said that much of the talk has them and discuss them, the more people will realise that been about harmful websites and much of the spotlight something needs to be done. We all need to take on pornographic ones, but added that more needs to be responsibility, parents in particular. done to tackle social media sites and the problems of Time is short, but I want to make a couple of further abuse and bullying. Like the shadow Minister, I think points, for which I am indebted to Dr Noel Purdy who, that the response that he received from Google to his along with Dr Conor McGuckin, produced a report in complaint about an horrific set of circumstances was Northern Ireland entitled “Cyber-bullying and the law”. inadequate. Such a response is entirely illustrative of the Dr Purdy is the chair of the Northern Ireland Anti-Bullying problems that we are up against if we leave the matter Forum. He has made a number of points, particularly wholly to the industry. That is why the motion refers, as in relation to schools, that bear highlighting in the several hon. Members have done, to the need to look House this afternoon. He says that carefully at what more can be done through legislation to force companies to respond adequately. There should “schools are often at a loss to know where to start dealing with be consequences for the companies if they do not take the issue” adequate action to deal with complaints and problems because that are not only minor, but can be very serious, “incidents take place in the evenings or at weekends off site” including those that have led, as we have heard, to a loss and because of issues with “staff competence”. He of life. makes the point that in Northern Ireland the guidance The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) that schools receive on how to manage these issues and talked about legislation and the need for consequences. on their legal responsibilities is “virtually non-existent”. Like other Northern Ireland Members, she knows about He also makes the point that technology is changing so this phenomenon—it is common across the entire country fast that it is hard for schools, teachers and parents to and, indeed, the modern developed world—as well as keep up. the particular issues in Northern Ireland arising from Dr Purdy states that cyber-bullying is a 24/7 activity. the legacy of the 30 or 35 years of the so-called troubles, That point has been brought out in this debate. With with a large number of households and families affected the old kind of bullying in the school playground, one by mental health issues. The insidious problem of cyber- could get away from it and find refuge in one’s family, bullying comes on top of those kinds of issues, which home and friends. People had support mechanisms. make the problems in Northern Ireland particularly Bullying over the internet is inescapable because everybody acute. I join her in what she said. now carries a mobile phone. 837 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 838

[Mr Nigel Dodds] Exploitation and Online Protection Centre and others have welcomed that, but we still need to hold Facebook’s Dr Purdy’s report cites primary school teachers who feet to the fire, and the fact that it is a member of the say that parents give iPads, tablets and mobile phones UKCCIS board gives us a real opportunity to keep to children as young as four or five as Christmas and pressing it further to take more action. birthday presents and then leave them to it. As we all The hon. Member for Upper Bann rightly asked know, children pick up things from other children and what more we could do, and we must constantly ask from older children in particular. We therefore need to ourselves that question. The offer that the Under-Secretary be conscious of this extremely worrying phenomenon. of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage Parents urgently need to be educated about the dangers (Mr Vaizey), made of a meeting with interested Members of internet technology. Buying such technology for and social media providers—Twitter, Facebook and the their children and leaving them to it is the highest form like—was a positive step, and I hope that many hon. of irresponsibility. However, it is too easily done. I am Members will take it up as a way forward. not lecturing others, because we are all guilty to some As ever, my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing extent of not keeping a close enough watch on our and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) made a thought-provoking children. In today’s society, it is not always possible to and well informed speech, and he reminded us of the have a close family unit in which close attention is given danger that cyber-bullying brings and the fact that in to what young people are up to. That is a massive issue manywaysitisnomorethanacowardlyformof that needs to be addressed. playground bullying. There is also a danger that it is We want the Government to consider legislation on becoming an everyday fact of modern life, and that too greater reporting obligations on social media companies many young people and adults are becoming sanitised and service providers, and on a specific offence of to the world in which they communicate. My hon. cyber-bullying. In his opening remarks, the Minister Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) also helpfully referred to the various pieces of legislation raised that point in his excellent contribution. that are in place. He referred to the number of cases that My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and have been brought under the Malicious Communications Shoreham also asked the crucial question why so many Act 1988. He also mentioned the Communications people turn to the internet to bully, harass and abuse. I Act 2003, the Telecommunications Act 1984 and the was struck by the contribution of the hon. Member for Protection from Harassment Act 1997. However, I think Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) and her thoughtful that what has come out of this debate is that there needs analysis of attitudinal changes in people’s behaviour to be a stronger definition of the phenomenon of cyber- that are connected with their use of different forms of bullying. I urge the Government to think seriously social media, and how they have manifested themselves about that. in such widespread form. It was a powerful point, and we should examine that matter carefully using the research 3.59 pm that she pointed to and through the work of the UKCCIS board and across Government more widely. I am happy The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education to discuss that research with her and where she thinks (Mr Edward Timpson): I begin by thanking all hon. we could channel our energies to use it more effectively, Members who have spoken in today’s valuable and because none of us would in any way, shape or form welcome debate. It is perhaps a sign of the real advances endorse the changes to social attitudes that we have seen. that have been made in Northern Ireland that Democratic Unionist party Members have tabled two important As my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing debates on matters that affect the whole UK as well as and Shoreham said, the UKCCIS is part of the solution. their own constituents. That is to be hugely welcomed. He called for greater focus on social media as part of the board’s work, and I agree completely. The board I have listened with great interest to the contributions currently has a strand of work on social networking, to the debate, none more so than that of the hon. and we will pursue the matter more vigorously as the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson). I commend board moves forward. I commend him for his efforts to him, as have others, for his work in his constituency to pool best practice through the Nominet survey of hon. raise awareness of cyber-bullying, such as the forum Members, in which I encourage them to participate if that he brought together, at which he committed to they feel able to do so. raising the profile of the issue. I suspect that he could My hon. Friend raised the important matter of vulnerable have done no better than bringing today’s debate to the children in particular being unfairly targeted by people House. He set a measured and serious tone and raised a seeking to abuse them via the internet. The £1.5 million number of important points, which I will seek to cover. that we have given to the National Children’s Bureau The hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) will directly help to reduce the bullying encountered by told us about the lack of parental knowledge that is still children who have special educational needs or disabilities. out there, and my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham As he rightly pointed out, we also need to improve (Bob Stewart) spoke for many of us when he admitted reporting mechanisms so that the two-thirds of children his own naivety about much of the activity on the who do not report a worry or concern about an interaction internet that exposes young people to potential harm. they have experienced over the internet feel able to do We should all take that lesson from today’s debate. so. That is another piece of work the UKCCIS is taking Concerns have also been raised in the debate about forward, and I welcome my hon. Friend’s support for Facebook’s privacy settings. Following our work on the many of our other actions. UKCCIS board, Facebook has made changes to the default The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) setting for users aged 13 to 18, moving the default mentioned the difficulties in defining cyber-bullying, position from information being open to friends of and the need to raise awareness of the issue through a friends to its being open to friends only. The Child sustained nationwide campaign. To clarify an earlier 839 Cyber-bullying3 DECEMBER 2013 Cyber-bullying 840 exchange about the big four internet service providers Bureau grant for children with special educational needs. coming together in a concerted joined-up campaign The £1.5 million to beat bullying is to train 3,500 11 to over the next three years, the £25 million is for the first 17-year-olds to be mentors in schools and outside the year, with subsequent funding for the next two years to school gates, and the £800,000 for the Diana Award is follow. That is a significant amount of money to target to train 10,000 pupils to act as anti-bullying ambassadors. collectively on the issues that really matter, and cyber- It is not London-centric; we are trying to cover many bullying must clearly be taken into account. areas of the country where we know there is expertise My hon. Friend the Member for Norwich South on the ground. (Simon Wright) gave a powerful demonstration of what The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), can be achieved in people’s own communities to tackle who closed the debate on behalf of the Democratic this issue, and mentioned his constituent Jacqueline Unionist party, reminded us that bullying in all its Hitchcock-Wyatt who set up the Bullying Stinkz campaign forms is simply unacceptable, but that we are still running to empower young people to speak up. I commend to catch up with technology. It is in that vein that I will them for their work. It demonstrates that if we have the reflect on the contributions that have been made to will and desire to do so, we can effect change right consider whether there is more we can do to combat this where it matters. horrific activity that is blighting far too many people’s The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) lives, both young and old. reminded us of the scale of this insidious form of If we are to be successful in tackling bullying, including bullying and the need to improve awareness among cyber-bullying, it is important that we engage with parents. We should never underestimate the ability of people across society—including government, local this issue to spread so quickly and so far, and that is a authorities, local safeguarding children’s boards, the difficult part of finding a solution to these rapid police, schools, parents and internet providers—so that technological changes. they can all play their part. They all have a role to play, My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey shared candidly and by intervening to prevent and respond to bullying, his own personal experiences and the loss of his friend we are more likely to stamp it out. to bullying. He may like to consider the categories We talked at length about existing legislation and the included in new family-friendly parental control filters, prosecutions arising from the Communications Act 2003. which include suicide and self-harm, as that is important. I will endeavour to write to my hon. Friend the Member We talk a lot about the insidious nature of much of the for East Worthing and Shoreham with specific figures. activity on the internet, but nothing can be more insidious Like so many other areas where vulnerable people are than some of the suicide sites that we see. He reminded exposed to horrific crimes, whether female genital mutilation us of the terrible experience of Hannah Smith, and I or other crimes, we want to ensure that we do all we can had the opportunity to meet her father David a few to bring about successful prosecutions. There will be months ago to discuss what we can learn from that instances where cyber-bullying forms part of a wider tragic case. pattern of behaviour. Someone may be prosecuted under a different offence, where cyber-bullying forms part of My hon. Friend also explained to the House about the charge and, we hope, the conviction. It is sometimes the targeting of gay people, and gave the recent example hard to determine exactly whether cyber-bullying has of Olympic diver Tom Daley, and some of the despicable played a role in someone’s successful prosecution, but I and twisted posts that have been put on social media will endeavour to find as much detail for my hon. sites. Cyber-bullying attacks people’s confidence, and it Friend as I can. We believe that existing law is able to can go even further and ruin people’s mental health. ensure that where something is illegal offline it is also That goes to the heart of the conversation about social illegal online. We will, as we always do, keep under attitudes, and why it is that when people are given review whether the legislation is delivering. As things anonymity, their whole value base seems to flip. We stand, we are confident that we have in place the right must do more to understand that. framework to ensure that where people are breaking the I have already alluded to the helpful and constructive law they are called to task. contribution by the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland, This has been an excellent debate, one that has and she asked about the four key stages in which demonstrated that we have a shared commitment across internet safety will now be taught—previously it was the House to tackle cyber-bullying and bullying in all its taught only in key stages 3 and 4. Internet safety is in forms. I thank Democratic Unionist party Members for the computing part of the curriculum, but there is of using their precious time to raise such an important course freedom for schools, within personal, social, issue. We have more to do. We have a lot of work in health and economic education, to envelop it into other train and we will continue to work collectively to ensure aspects of the curriculum. The hon. Lady mentioned that we go further and faster to stamp out this horrendous some of the materials from Denmark that help not just crime. children but parents as well—an interesting area to explore, considering we know how much parents feel Question put and agreed to. that they lack knowledge and understanding of many Resolved, of the issues their children face. That this House recognises the serious problem of cyber-bullying and the appalling consequences for an increasing number of On how we are helping schools, and some of the children and young people who are its victims; and calls on the excellent voluntary organisations that work day in, day Government to take action to help eradicate this form of intimidation out, to support children who are victims of bullying, the and harassment, including the consideration of legislation to 900 schools were in relation to the National Children’s make cyber-bullying an offence. 841 3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 842

Persecution of Christians a minority—Sudan and Somalia, for example, where they are pursued relentlessly.Christians are also persecuted in countries where they are of equal numbers, while in 4.12 pm countries where Christians are in larger numbers or in a Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I beg to move, majority, they are subject to radical Muslim teaching That this House is concerned that the persecution of Christians and abuse, as exemplified in Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. is increasing in the 21st Century; notes that there are reports that In Algeria, it is impossible to register church buildings one Christian is killed every 11 minutes somewhere on earth for or to legalise meetings. their faith; further notes that Christianity is the most persecuted religion globally; bears in mind that the right to freedom of In Africa, due to Islamic extremism, the persecution thought, conscience and religion is a human right stated in the of Christians has increased significantly in 2012 and Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and calls on the Government 2013, most notably in Mali, Tanzania, Ethiopia and to do more both in its foreign policy and through its aid work to Niger. Sharia family courts have been introduced, which defend and support people of Christian faith. ignore Christians and their beliefs. The north of Mali is It is a pleasure to bring this matter forward for similar to Saudi Arabia in that Christians are simply no consideration. The number of Members in the Chamber longer allowed to be there or to practise their beliefs. In is an indication of the level of interest, and I look the Maldives, one cannot read one’s Bible; indeed, forward to outlining some of the issues. people are not allowed to have one. If people are caught I believe that the persecution of Christians is the reading their Bibles on holiday in that beautiful country, biggest story in the world that has never been told, and they will be arrested, jailed and deported. I hope you its importance cannot be underlined enough. The subject will think about that, Madam Deputy Speaker, the next burdens me, and many other Members, judging by the time you decide to book a holiday to the Maldives. number here. Each day we pray for Christians who are In Sri Lanka, Christians are subject to persecution. suffering persecution. It is important that we use the In Burma, Christians and ethnic minorities are bombed powerful tool of prayer to help them. by Government aircraft and attacked. It would be helpful I am reminded of the story told about Charles Wesley to hear in the Minister’s response some indication of addressing his congregation in church. He was calling how those issues were presented at the Commonwealth out a hymn and said to the congregation, “I want you to summit and what response the Prime Minister got. I sing lustily. I want you to sing moderately. Most of all, I understand that he brought the issues to the attention want you to sing in tune.” I believe that this House will of the people attending. be in tune today, because we are all united on the importance of this issue. Today’s debate will make that Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ clear. Co-op): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues on raising this issue, which I know is a matter Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): of concern to many of our constituents. I am sure that It is greatly to the credit of the Democratic Unionist the hon. Gentleman will, like myself, be opposed to the party that it has secured this debate. Let us be honest: if persecution or harassment of any faith group of whatever this were happening to almost any other religious group denomination. The fact is that Christians face persecution it would be something of a national scandal. That and harassment in more countries than any other faith makes it all the more important to put the ongoing group. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Commonwealth persecution of Christians in many parts of the world on meeting. What we need, of course, is action internationally the political map. This debate will do that in the next as well. What kind of action does he envisage would two and three quarter hours. strengthen the international regime, international conventions and international agencies to try to stop Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that such persecution and harassment happening? intervention. I think the rest of the debate will reflect that tone. Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his One hundred thousand Christians will be massacred intervention. We will discuss those aspects as the debate this year because of their beliefs. Two hundred million develops. There is clearly a role not just for this House, Christians will be persecuted due to their faith. One and but for the Commonwealth, for the United Nations and a half billion Christians live in what can be termed as for all the countries where persecution has taken place. dangerous neighbourhoods. That shows the magnitude They all have a clear role to play to help ease the pain of of the problem of persecuted Christians. persecuted Christians. We should all try to achieve that. There are Christians in the world today who cannot David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): My hon. Friend attend church as we do on Sunday and they cannot pray will know that I have an interest in India, where my to God as we do—indeed, as we did before we started adopted daughter comes from. In recent times, we have our business in this House today. There is an example of seen kidnappings, forced marriages, 18,000 people injured, the importance of the Bible and our prayer time. These 6,000 houses and 296 churches and small places of Christians cannot tell their friends that the Lord Jesus Christian worship burned and pastors murdered. It is a gave his life for them, and they cannot read their Bible horrendous situation; something needs to be done about it. as we read our Bible. They cannot carry out their own businesses; they cannot be involved in civic life; they Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments, face discrimination in education. which are harrowing ones. I have them written down here, Let us go right across the world from North Korea, so I shall not repeat them. My hon. Friend, like many of where it is estimated that some 100,000 Christians suffer us here, used to work in the Northern Ireland Assembly, in horrific prison camps, to Eritrea where 2,000 Christians and I can remember him speaking on this issue back are in jail for their beliefs and 31 died in custody last then. The story was horrific then; it is equally horrific year. Then there are countries in which Christians are in today. The figures and the statistics are overwhelming. 843 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 844

Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) that the United Kingdom Government have designated (LD): I thank the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues the right to freedom of religion or belief as one of the for choosing this theme for debate. Does he accept that top human right priorities for their foreign policy. We not just members of the Christian Church—him, me, understand that to be the case and hope to hear it many other Members and our constituents—but people confirmed at the end of our debate. Will the UK of other faiths now believe that the Government and Government agree that this right should be protected the Commonwealth in particular should be much more and promoted by all Governments worldwide? That is proactive about this issue? In reflecting further on the another question. question asked by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz), does he agree that Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): one thing the Government could do would be to urge The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to argue for the way, and what he is saying and some of the cases he is Commonwealth to set up a specific group of people—of highlighting are deeply alarming. What I am particularly politicians and faith groups—to make sure that the alarmed about is some of the instances he has mentioned human rights of faith minorities in the world, particularly within the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth is a in the Commonwealth, are much better protected than huge broad church of different faiths, beliefs and religions they are now? and we are a family. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we should be using the Commonwealth more to Jim Shannon: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for promote freedom of worship, as we do poverty alleviation that very valuable contribution. I will mention Baroness and education, so that Commonwealth countries can Warsi later in my speech. She has outlined the issue promote that among non-Commonwealth countries in from the Government’s point of view and explained the particular parts of the world where they are located? some of the ideas she is thinking of. I will return to them shortly as I believe they show the direction we Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those should be going in, and hopefully that will address very honest and true words, which every one of us can some of the points Members have raised. take on board and believe in. I hope we can exert In Indonesia and the Philippines Christians have had pressure, including through our membership of the their churches burned to the ground and church members Commonwealth, to try to exact change. attacked and killed because they dared to tell others This Government are keen to pursue closer financial about the love of God, and that God is a God of love relations with China and there is nothing wrong with who loves them and wants them to be saved and in that. The benefits were outlined in the papers today, as heaven. Now, in the 21st century, nearly 65 years since were the pictures of the Prime Minister, but there are the universal declaration of human rights was adopted 100 Christian Church pastors in prison today because by the UN—we can now think about the UN’s role and they are Christians—because they have a belief. the role it can play—and with great improvements in technology and medicine, we might also expect to see an improvement in how humans treat each other. However, Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): The hon. sadly, we still see severe violations of human rights Gentleman is right to point out that the Christian around the world. Indeed one human right that is Church worldwide is suffering from unprecedented particularly violated is that outlined in article 18: the persecution, and I welcome this debate. Given that my right to freedom of religion or belief. It is enshrined in right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is in China as we the motion before us today, too; that is the thrust of speak—unless he is on an aircraft—does the hon. where we are coming from. This right is one of the only Gentleman agree that the Chinese authorities need to rights defined as non-derogable in the international understand that the Christian religion is not a western covenant on civil and political rights. That means that it plot, but has its origins as a religion in the middle east, must be protected at all times and cannot be suspended in a town called Bethlehem? or reduced in times of emergency. Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I comments and that is clearly an issue and China needs congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this subject to understand that as well. As many Members wish to before the House. What role does he think human rights speak, if I may I will not take any more interventions. legislation and constitutional protections might play in Foreign Office Minister Baroness Warsi has an important helping prevent the kinds of human rights abuses we role to play. She recently drew attention to the persecution are seeing at the moment? of Christians. I commend her for speaking out so boldly and clearly. In her speech she noted that, Jim Shannon: As this debate develops, the Minister “the parts of the world where Christianity first spread, is now or his civil servants will frantically write down the seeing large sections of the Christian community leaving, and answers to these questions. I have a number of questions those that are remaining feeling persecuted.” as well. I am sure the scribes in the corner will be She has set the focus and attention where it should be: writing furiously throughout the debate; I hope I was on the mass exodus of Christians from the middle east, not insulting them by calling them scribes. which is very evident in Egypt and in Syria. In Iraq, Those who drafted our international human rights Christians fled the cities of Baghdad and Mosul in 2005 clearly saw the right to freedom of thought, conscience, after persecution intensified. These are the facts, but the religion or belief as key to the inherent dignity of the increasing use of violence against Christians in the human person and that it was important to protect it at previously safe north has largely gone unnoticed in all times. We should afford it the same weight; that is the outside world. On 22 September, a suicide bomb where we are coming from. To this end, I am pleased went off in the Kirkuk province, injuring 19 people, 845 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 846

[Jim Shannon] struggle to gain access to secondary schools or higher education institutions. Christian girls were under serious including the Christian politician Emad Youhanna. threat of abduction, forced conversion and marriage. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility. How are the UK Access for Christians to development projects in these Government working with Iraq to address this worrying states is also severely restricted. What are the British development in northern Iraq? Government doing to address this all-pervading social In Syria, Christians are caught between opposing pressure on Christians in the 12 northern sharia states sides in the conflict. There are an increasing number of in Nigeria? missile and mortar attacks in Christian neighbourhoods Boko Haram is the militant group that targets in cities such as Damascus and Aleppo. Jihadists are Government and Church activities. Church leaders are now widely understood to have infiltrated the rebel often specifically targeted by this group. Many have movement in Syria. They specifically targeted Christian been killed in Nigeria, and attacks against Christians in villages such as Maaloula, in September, and more Nigeria have also reportedly been perpetrated by militants recently Sadad, where 45 people were killed. Such incidents crossing the border from Chad and Niger. There are demonstrate what is happening. further examples of attacks upon Christians. A Catholic Now that the United Nations has set the date for minister and his two sons were murdered in the northern Geneva II—22 January 2014—what are the British state of Yobe. Their home and church were then set Government doing to ensure that the Christian community ablaze. The town of Gamboru was attacked twice. Six in Syria has a voice at the negotiations? Will the Government people were killed in the first attack, and a further 21 in do everything possible through Geneva II to protect all the second. Militant cross-border terrorist groups are the people of Syria, to safeguard the Christian community, also fomenting religious strife in other African countries. to guarantee access for humanitarian assistance, and to Christians in Somalia and Kenya are being targeted by establish a new Syria that respects the right to freedom the group al-Shabaab. In the Central African Republic, of religion for all? the Seleka forces—involving members from the CAR, Chad and Niger—have been involved in the killing of at Mark Field: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on least eight Church leaders. It has also been noted by that point? observers that the conflict in the CAR is developing a worrying sectarian element. Jim Shannon: I am sorry but I cannot; I want to give Members a chance to speak. Have the Government identified the increase in the activity of, and the persecution of Christians by, cross- I turn to Pakistan and the killing of 85 people and border militants in Nigeria as a problem? If so, what are the wounding of 150 others in a suicide bombing attack. they doing to help the Governments in that region to The Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan—the TTP terrorist address the issue effectively? I urge the Minister to organisation—is specifically targeting Christians in Pakistan. respond to those and the many other questions that will What will the British Government be able to do about emerge from the debate today. I thank hon. Members that in their discussions with Pakistan? In Libya, Christians for their patience; I hope that I have been able to set the have been murdered for failing to agree to convert to scene and to explain what this issue means to me Islam. The fall in the number of Christians across the personally and what it should mean to the House and region is very evident in Iraq. everyone in this country. The persecution of Christians In Iraq, the violence is increasing. It is the Sunnis is an important matter. Let us pray for them and let us against the Shi’ites; the Kurds against the Turks, against do our best for them as elected representatives in this the Arabs; the federalists against the separatists; the House. nationalists against the international jihadists; anti- Government versus pro-Government. Underneath all 4.30 pm those levels of disagreement, the region’s indigenous, long-suffering, besieged remnant Christians will be the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign victims of every contact targeted by all forces. They are and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): I should the target of every one of those groups. That is happening like to set out the Government’s position on this important in Yemen, as well, and Christians are being attacked matter. A little later, I will sum up the debate and and murdered across the whole of Mexico, Lebanon, answer the questions from the hon. Member for Strangford Colombia, Guatemala and Sudan. (Jim Shannon) and those that other hon. Members will I turn to Nigeria, a country very close to my heart. no doubt ask. I congratulate the Democratic Unionist We have had debates on it in this House, and we have party on securing this important debate, and I echo the raised the important questions and issues that we must comment from my hon. Friend the Member for Cities try to address. The persecution of Christians in Nigeria of London and Westminster (Mark Field) that the takes multiple forms. We are all familiar with the horrifying party deserves enormous credit for choosing this topic, fatalities resulting from the Boko Haram attacks. First, which is of significant importance to many people in I would like to highlight the all-pervading pressure our constituencies. placed on Christians in the 12 northern sharia states, I also congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford where they are effectively second-class citizens and on his measured, detailed and thorough analysis of the converting to Christianity is a dangerous act not only many areas around the world in which Christians are for the convert, but for anyone who tries to help them. suffering persecution. I am sure that he would be the In the northern states, great pressure is exerted on the first to admit, however, that in the Central African Christian community. They cannot bury their dead in Republic, Nigeria, Syria and elsewhere, it is not just public cemeteries. In public primary schools, Christian Christians but people of other religions who are suffering children are forced to attend Islamic studies and are such persecution. That should be a matter of deep beaten and/or expelled if they refuse. Teenage Christians concern to all of us, whether we have a religious faith or 847 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 848 not, because freedom of religion and belief is a gateway confronting the intolerance and sectarianism that leads to other human rights and a litmus test of other to minority communities being persecuted around the fundamental freedoms. When people are persecuted world and to a mass exodus of Christians from places because of the faith that they profess, the freedoms of where they have co-existed with the majority faith for expression and assembly and other human rights will generations. In the speech, she presented her vision for a often also suffer. cross-faith, cross-continent response to the problem, with a positive, practical focus on promoting the benefits Mark Field: I accept that view, but would the Minister of religious plurality to societies. acknowledge the depressing paradox that some of the A key element of that speech was that our response worst persecution is taking place in notional democracies? to the persecution of Christians should not be sectarian. In some cases, the Christian population would be better We should not be standing up for our co-religionists or looked after under a dictatorship—such as in Syria Christians in particular; we should be supporting the under President Assad—than in a country that is notionally right to freedom of religion or belief for all, as set out in democratic. This is not simply a matter of saying that a article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights. whole load of democratic rights will follow on from History points out that intolerance is defeated only religious freedoms. We must ensure that religious and when we come together. People of all faiths and none individual freedoms go hand in hand and that they do should be appalled when a bomb goes off outside a not find themselves in conflict with each other. church. Indeed, both Muslims and Christians have come together to protect each other’s place of worship, and, Mark Simmonds: My hon. Friend makes an important as in the case of the terrible suicide bomb attacks on All point, although he will be aware that we believe that Saints’ church in Peshawar, to donate blood for the President Assad’s regime in Syria has engaged in a victims. That needs to be the response that we all take to deliberate attempt to stir up tensions between religious the global crisis affecting Christians. groups in order to hold on to power. My hon. Friend is We should speak out on behalf of Christians. That is right to suggest that these issues are extremely complex, what we have done, for example, when we condemned but there is a direct correlation between the rule of law, the recent attacks that took place in Pakistan, which human rights, transparency and freedom of expression killed and injured so many innocent people. We should as it relates to religion, whether it be Christianity, any lobby for changes in discriminatory laws and practices other religion or no religion at all. that affect religious minorities, including Christians. We will continue to do that when, for example, an Iranian Mark Pritchard: The Minister has just read out a list pastor is arrested for setting up a church in a house or that, perhaps surprisingly, sounds very similar to the for sharing his faith. We meet Christian leaders from Chinese constitution. Given the fact that my right hon. around the world to gain a better understanding of Friend the Prime Minister is in China at the moment, their concerns and the issues affecting them. Foreign would the Minister like to put on record that the and Commonwealth Office Ministers met Patriarch Chinese regime needs to abide by the terms of its own Gregorios III on 16 October to discuss the plight of constitution and allow freedom of assembly for Christians, Christians in Syria—the hon. Member for Strangford whether they are members of the official Church or made a powerful point about that. part of the underground church? We are active in supporting local Christian communities. That is why for a number of years we have supported Mark Simmonds: I understand the point that my hon. the work of Canon Andrew White in Iraq, bringing Friend is making, but I re-emphasise the fact that we together religious leaders across sectarian divides to strongly support freedom of religion for all, including denounce violence that occurs in the name of religion. in China—the example he gave—in accordance with Similarly, when I went to Kaduna in northern Nigeria— international frameworks to which the United Kingdom another example cited by the hon. Gentleman—I met and China are both party. We regularly raise the issue of religious leaders across the religious divide to see the religious freedom with the Chinese Government, and valuable inter-faith work that was taking place there. I we have a UK-China human rights dialogue for detailed wish to discuss Nigeria in my closing remarks, if the expert engagement, which will engage with this particular House will allow me. area, too. However, I do not believe that making it our policy to Let me make a little progress, because I want to put defend Christians in particular is going to help them in on the record what the Government are doing about the the longer term. There is a risk of isolating them from persecution of those trying to practise their religion. We the wider populations, identifying them as something of strongly believe that the freedom to practise, change or a fifth column and even exacerbating the persecution share one’s faith or belief without discrimination or that they may be suffering. Instead, we should be supporting violent opposition is a fundamental human right that the building of societies that respect human rights, the all people should enjoy. We believe that societies that rule of law and the equality and opportunity of all aim to guarantee freedom of religion or belief are citizens, and spelling out that all freedoms of religion or stronger, fairer and more confident. The situation facing belief are a universal concern. Christians in the 21st century is alarming. Research by We are also making the case that countries that the Pew Research Centre acknowledges that Christians protect minority rights are stronger, fairer and more are the most persecuted religious group in the world—a confident. If people are free to believe and to worship, point made powerfully by the hon. Member for Strangford. they can make a bigger contribution to society, boost The Government recognise that, and the persecution of the economy and guard against violence, extremism Christians worldwide was the central focus of Baroness and social strife. Other countries should protect Christians Warsi’s keynote speech at Georgetown university on not just because it is the right thing to do, which it is, 15 November. In that speech, we called for unity in but because it is in their interests to do so. The freedom 849 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 850

[Mark Simmonds] allowed to practise free of persecution, intimidation and violence. As I have said before in relation to China of religion is a fundamental human rights priority for or anywhere else, this is a main priority of our bilateral this Government, which means that we pursue it as a relations. We have raised this important issue in the major element of our bilateral work, our lobbying of past, and we will continue to do so in the future. other Governments and our human rights programme funding. Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): This debate is entitled persecution of Christians. With all due respect We have equipped our staff with a toolkit to monitor to my hon. Friend, there is a risk of the Foreign Office and address concerns about freedom of religion or not appreciating the real growing concern about the belief around the world. Our toolkit has provided the global persecution of Christians. It is not sufficient to inspiration for the European Union’s own guidelines on say that because some other people are being persecuted, freedom of religion or belief, and we have played a we should not be concerned about the persecution of central role in securing both their adoption and Christians. There is a global issue about the persecution implementation. We continue to play a leading role of Christians in a number of defined countries. If he within the EU in making this a priority across member looks around, he will discover that what the House states in terms of focusing on particular countries of wants to hear is what the Foreign Office will be doing concern, programme funding or staff training. It is also differently to address that persecution. a focus of our multilateral work at the UN and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe. Mark Simmonds: I am grateful for that intervention, Multilaterally, we are working through the UN to ensure and if my hon. Friend will allow me to make some that states implement the Human Rights Council resolution progress I shall set out the changes that will emanate that focuses on combating religious intolerance, protecting from the work done by my noble Friend Baroness the human rights of minorities and promoting pluralism Warsi. in society. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Will During the UN General Assembly ministerial week the Minister give way? at the end of September, we convened a second meeting of international leaders to discuss what more politicians Mark Simmonds: Perhaps I could make little progress, can do to promote freedom of religion or belief and to so that I can set out some of the changes that we are fight religious intolerance wherever it occurs within our making. society. We are focusing on the multilateral work at the UN and the OSCE. During the United Nations General Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): The Minister Assembly ministerial week at the end of September, we says that we should not focus too much on Christians—I convened a meeting to focus on promoting freedom of understand that—but if we accept that argument we religion or belief and fighting religious intolerance in should not have complained about the persecution of our societies. At the OSCE for the past three years, we Jews in Nazi Germany because that would have made have showcased our work on freedom of religion or them a target. I do not necessarily accept all his arguments. belief and combating hate crime against religious He must accept that the overwhelming number of communities. Moreover, our work to promote the freedom persecutions in the world today are against Christians. of religion or belief continues to grow, as demonstrated That is a fact, and so we have to focus on Christians for by the creation of a new sub-group of the Foreign better or worse. Secretary’s advisory group to focus on freedom of religion Mark Simmonds: I understand my hon. Friend’s point. or belief. He says that the majority of those who are persecuted Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con) rose— for their religious belief are Christians, but there are others who are suffering as well—people of different Mark Simmonds: Let me set this out, then I will religions and of no religious faith. Another example happily give way. that the hon. Member for Strangford gave was the We have also introduced new training courses to appalling atrocities that are taking place in the Central equip our diplomats to understand the crucial role African Republic, where Muslims are persecuting Christians religion plays in the world today. I should stress that the and Christians are persecuting and murdering Muslims. promotion of the freedom of religion or belief, of The actions of both groups are completely and utterly which the Christian religion is an important part, of unacceptable, and the United Kingdom Government course, remains a priority for all FCO Ministers. Collectively, need to do everything they can to ensure that a person we have a greater reach and more access to key interlocutors can pursue their religion, whatever it is, without fear of than a stand-alone ambassador on the subject matter persecution or intimidation. would have. Mark Pritchard: I am grateful to the Minister for Jeremy Lefroy: I congratulate the DUP on securing being so generous in taking interventions. In order for the debate. May I tease out from the Minister what he there to be some balance vis-à-vis my remarks on China understands by the phrase “freedom of religion or and following on from a debate a week or so ago in belief”? Is it merely a matter of being able to worship, a Westminster Hall, does he agree that Uighurs in the matter of being able to worship publicly, or a matter of Xinjiang province of China also need protection, as do being able to worship in a public place, to tell others the Buddhists in another part of China? about one’s faith and to encourage them to join it? What is the exact definition? There seems to be some Mark Simmonds: I think my hon. Friend is referring variance around the world—I am not saying that it is to the Buddhists in Tibet, which I have visited. Certainly, coming from Her Majesty’s Government—in what freedom wherever people of religious belief exist, they should be of religion is. 851 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 852

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. prevalent in 105 countries, followed by the harassment May I gently remind the Minister and Members who of Muslims in 101 countries. We need to flag up the fact continue to intervene that the debate must finish at that persecution is not restricted to Christians, but we 7 o’clock? I have 15 speakers on my written list and I are here today to discuss the persecution of Christians. would appreciate it, Minister, given that you will seek Before moving on to the more commonly cited countries leave to speak at the end of the debate, if you could in the debate about religious freedom, I want to comment make more rapid progress through your speech to allow on the Central African Republic, which has been mentioned. other Members to speak. According to the US ambassador to the United Nations, the Central African Republic has been described as Mark Simmonds: I am grateful for that guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me give a brief response “the worst crisis most people have never heard of”. to my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy There have been harrowing reports of violence, beheadings Lefroy): I would argue that it is all of the above, as well and villages being razed to the ground. France has as the right to change one’s religion or belief. warned that the country is on the verge of genocide, as In summary, the UK Government are committed to violence between Muslims and Christians escalates. A protecting freedom of religion or belief internationally third of the population is in need of humanitarian and to standing up for the rights of Christians and assistance, and I hope that the Foreign Office and the others who are persecuted around the world, regardless Department for International Development will do all of the country or faith concerned. We welcome the they can to try to prevent that situation from escalating increased focus on that fundamental right that has been even further and to bring relief to people on the ground. brought about by parliamentarians, particularly the The plight of Coptic Christians in Egypt is more all-party group on international religious freedom or commonly known. As documented in Amnesty belief. Our activity to further this fundamental right International’s report, “How long are we going to live will continue to grow and develop. in this injustice?”, there was an unprecedented wave of sectarian attacks on 14 August, when the security forces 4.47 pm dispersed people in camps, and churches and Church- Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): It is a pleasure affiliated buildings as well as businesses owned by Coptic to speak in the debate and I know from past experience Christians were destroyed. The excellent report by of speaking in Westminster Hall debates on human Amnesty—I recommend it to people who have not read rights issues that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim it—reported that 43 Orthodox churches were completely Shannon) is passionate about the issue. He has made a destroyed, and 207 churches were attacked. Not only number of speeches and interventions on the subject in were the symbols of Christianity attacked but Christians previous debates and I congratulate him on persuading themselves, and four people were killed that day. That is his party to table the motion today. part of a rise in sectarian tension in Egypt, following As we have heard, freedom of religion or belief is decades of discrimination suffered by Coptic Christians included under article 18 of the universal declaration and impunity for the perpetrators. Egyptian law also on human rights, which states: means that it is difficult for Christians to rebuild their “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and churches. religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and Mr Jim Cunningham: My hon. Friend has mentioned in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, the Coptic Church, which is probably one of the oldest practice, worship and observance.” Churches in the world. Does she agree that when we As we have heard from those who have spoken so far, in talk about aid two of the issues that could be raised are too many countries those freedoms, particularly the human rights—there is a price to pay for aid—and right to dissent from the majority religion and to change religious freedom, regardless of whether someone is a religion, are not respected. Christian or belongs to any other denomination? The I commend the all-party group on international religious two have to work hand in hand to attain what we would freedom. I attended its meeting with Baroness Warsi a call human rights. few weeks ago and I am sure that we will hear from some of the group’s members this afternoon. In particular, Kerry McCarthy: My hon. Friend makes a really I congratulate the group on its report “Article 18: An important point that has been brought to my attention Orphaned Right”. Although all human rights are on a number of occasions. For example, we might look interdependent and interrelated, it highlights the fact at aid to countries such as Uganda, which has introduced that religious freedom often remains on the margins. As a Bill that has been discussed for the past few years. It is we heard from the Minister, the abuse of someone’s a private Member’s Bill, but it has support from senior right to freedom of religion often acts as a gateway to figures, and it would introduce the death penalty for other human rights abuses, such as those of the right to homosexuality. People have asked me whether we should freedom of assembly or expression. give aid to a country that is considering such a measure. We have to consider religious freedom as an intrinsic Should we give aid to other countries where, for example, part of human rights and indicative of the level of civil abortion is denied to rape victims? It is a tricky situation, and political freedom in a country. According to the because if we deny aid to countries where people are Pew research foundation, almost 75% of the global persecuted, we run the risk of penalising the most population live in countries with Government restrictions vulnerable people we are trying to help. We need to send or where harassment related to religion is common. We a strong message not about the conditions that we have discussed the fact that Christians are the religious impose on aid but about our expectations of human group most subject to persecution. In 2011, a report rights in the countries to which we give aid. I shall come stated that the harassment of Christians was most to that when I discuss the Prime Minister’s visit to China. 853 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 854

Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con): The hon. Lady I will return to the issue of religious freedom. The has raised a difficult issue, but it did not stop the west Maldives has signed up to the Commonwealth charter imposing sanctions on Iran for other reasons. Should and so is deemed to share the Commonwealth values of we not look more at whether conditions should be respect for human rights, but its constitution states that attached to aid where there are particularly horrendous a person is not allowed to be anything other than or general abuses of individuals’ freedom of religion? Muslim, as we have heard, and no Christian gatherings or buildings are allowed. Citizens have to be Muslim, Kerry McCarthy: I would not want to separate it out and that is enforced by pressure from families, society and just talk about it in the context of freedom of and the state. religion. We should discuss it generally in the context of Bangladesh is another Commonwealth country. The human rights abuses. We have taken steps in countries Bangladesh Minority Council has lobbied and met me where we think that there is corruption— to highlight the treatment of Christians, Buddhists and, in particular, Hindus, who now comprise just 7% of the population. In Pakistan, as we have heard, Hindus, Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): Will Christians, Sikhs and Ahmadis are at serious risk of the hon. Lady give way? violence and intimidation. Members will know the case of the Christian girl arrested last year for allegedly Kerry McCarthy: May I just finish answering the burning pages of the Koran, which brought to public question? attention the impact of the blasphemy laws in that In several countries we would give aid directly to country.We have also heard about another Commonwealth agencies working in the field, rather than putting it into country, Nigeria, where horrific acts of violence against the Government’s coffers, because of concerns about Christians are being carried out. We have to question corruption and a lack of democracy. That might be a what we can do within the Commonwealth. If we say way forward when we have concerns about a country’s that the Commonwealth is a club of shared values, what human rights record, particularly if there are recognised can we do when members of that club do not seem to be and well-established agencies, such as UN agencies, putting those principles into practice? It is really important working in those countries that we can trust to deliver to take that question forward. aid without discrimination and without supporting any The hon. Member for Strangford rightly highlighted measures that persecute people. As I have said, I think the plight of Christians in Syria. Of course, that is not that we should look at a country’s record in the round. the only country from which Christians are being forced It comes down to whether we trust its Government to to flee. Open Doors has warned that Christians are on spend aid money in the way we expect them to. the verge of extinction in Iraq, where their population has fallen from 1.2 million in the early 1990s to just 333,000 today. In Iran, Christians have had to flee their Robert Neill: I do not think that we disagree with homes or the country, Muslims who have renounced anything the hon. Lady has said, but why does she seem Islam face the death penalty and Christians are being so reluctant to phrase her contribution in terms of sentenced to 80 lashes for drinking communion wine. religion and the particular persecution suffered by The special rapporteur on human rights in Iran reported Christians? We are all in favour of human rights for that more than 300 Christians have been arrested since everybody, but there is a particular and pressing concern 2010, including Saeed Abedini, who was sentenced to about Christian communities around the world. Will eight years imprisonment for this work with the house she not be more specific in her response to my right churches. Other faiths, not least the Baha’i, also face hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) on persecution in Iran. ensuring that aid reflects discrimination against Christian and other religious bodies? On Burma, we know about the religious tensions in Rakhine state, where the Rohingya Muslims’ faith is a factor, as well as their ethnicity, but Christians in Burma Kerry McCarthy: I am sorry, but I have to disagree have suffered persecution too. The Chin Christians have with the hon. Gentleman. I do not think that we should been targeted for their ethnicity and their faith. A start carving up human rights by saying that some report by the Chin Human Rights Organisation abuses are worse than others. That would be entirely documented cases of forced labour, more than 40 separate wrong, because there are countries in which people of incidents of torture, and 24 official complaints from other faiths are being persecuted and killed, and we see Chin Christians of human rights violations, including persecution when we look at violence against women rape and extra-judicial killing, where no action was and attacks on LGBT communities. I accept that the taken against the perpetrators. persecution of Christians is a growing problem and that As we heard earlier, Open Doors ranked Saudi Arabia it is horrific in many countries, but I just do not think second on its world watch list, with only North Korea that we should divide it up. I think that we should look ahead of it. Conversion to a religion other than Islam is at whether a country respects human rights. punishable by death, and Christian worshippers risk This year saw the launch of the Commonwealth imprisonment, lashing, deportation and torture. It is charter, which was trumpeted as the first time that all important to note that last month saw the elections, Commonwealth countries had signed up to a statement mostly uncontested, to the Human Rights Council, of of shared values. I attended the Commonwealth which Saudi Arabia and the Maldives, as well as China, parliamentary conference in Johannesburg this year. are now members. I echo the comments I made about There was a lot of controversy, because it became the Commonwealth club. If these countries are to be apparent that not all the countries represented shared members of the Human Rights Council, they need to the same values, particularly when it came to LGBT be demonstrating in their own countries that they are rights. putting respect for human rights into practice. 855 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 856

David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I remember being in particular, Christian Solidarity Worldwide have been on a visit to China with the hon. Lady a few years back, very active in the past few years in encouraging Members when I was intrigued to find out that there are over to bring forward parliamentary debates. There is also a 60 million Christians there. To help take forward greater central role for the Foreign Office and the Department tolerance for human rights and freedom of religious for International Development, as we have discussed. worship, does she think it is important to have greater The role of Government should be to push for greater inter-faith dialogue engaging the Chinese authorities compliance with the universal declaration on the human with Christian groups and other groups to help people genome and human rights and the international covenant to appreciate just how big the Christian community is in on civil and political rights, to support the work of the that country? UN special rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief, and to press countries with outstanding requests to Kerry McCarthy: I thank the hon. Gentleman for agree to inspection visits, and indeed other special that intervention. I, too, was astounded to hear that procedures mandate-holders covering other human rights. figure, because one would not have appreciated that the Given its membership of the human rights council, the Christian community was so strong in China. He is UK has the opportunity to work with our international entirely right that dialogue is one of the ways forward. partners to strengthen protections for basic fundamental It is very important in many other cases where part of freedoms. Support for the freedom of belief must be the persecution arises from the fact that people do not part of that. No Government can be selective in the feel able to speak out and proselytise and publicise their human rights they endorse, just as the Foreign Office religion and feel it is something they have to keep under and the Prime Minister cannot be selective in which wraps. countries they challenge on their human rights record. Of course, the Prime Minister is in China at the moment. Before his trip, I tabled some parliamentary Several hon. Members rose— named-day questions, which unfortunately were not answered when they should have been, asking him what Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. efforts he was going to make to raise human rights There is going to be a six-minute time limit on Back-Bench during his visit. I know that it is primarily a trade speeches from now on. It may be necessary to take it delegation, but he has gone to a country where Muslims, even lower, depending on the frequency of interventions. Buddhists and Christians, as well as Falun Gong 5.5 pm practitioners, suffer torture, harassment and arbitrary detention, and the Tibetans and the Uyghurs are prevented Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): First, I am grateful from exercising their freedom of religion too. It is to my friends from the Democratic Unionist party for important to use such a high-profile visit to raise those introducing this debate. I think the whole House will issues. feel that it is particularly apposite, given that this is the season of Advent, when we think about our belief in I was impressed by Baroness Warsi when she came God becoming incarnate in the vulnerability of a baby along to the recent meeting of the all-party group on and the peace that should bring to earth. international freedom of religion or belief. She seems to be very committed to pursuing this issue. My concern is May I say, on behalf of the Back Benchers, that it that she has been given the human rights brief and it is would have been helpful if both Front Benchers had almost as though it has been put in a box so that she will listened to the debate and then responded to it, rather be travelling around the world talking about human than taken up the majority of their time in setting out rights, which frees up not only the other Foreign Office the line they want to take? That very act says to the Ministers but all the other Ministers who are going on House that neither they nor their Front-Bench colleagues trade delegations abroad— have really got the point that what we are trying to tell them is that there is a serious issue with the global Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I persecution of Christians, which is being seriously under- am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, but in all fairness, reported and not being properly understood or effectively when the Minister got to 16 minutes I said to him that answered. lots of people were waiting to speak. It is no good the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) talking about the equivalence of Kerry McCarthy: I am on my last page. human rights. Everyone in the House supports the Madam Deputy Speaker: Good. One minute, thank equivalence of human rights, but that is not what this you. debate is about. It is about the persecution of Christians and the fact that there is now practically no country—from Kerry McCarthy: I am concerned that it is almost as Morocco to Pakistan—in which Christians can freely though one person has been delegated the job of talking practise their religion. That must be a matter of real about human rights and that means that everybody else concern to this House. is free to just go and talk about trade and does not feel There is a severe danger, as we start to celebrate the that they ought to use the leverage that a trade mission feast of Christmas in this country, that Christianity will gives them to raise human rights issues too. It is very be almost completely erased from the traditional middle important that the Prime Minister does that. I asked east Holy Land of the Bible. Joseph would not now be him about it when he recently went to Saudi Arabia and advised to take Mary to Egypt to avoid the dangers of did not seem to raise human rights there either. Herod, because Jesus would just not have been safe In conclusion, as you will no doubt be pleased to there today. hear, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is important that What I think we are collectively trying to say to the Parliament works with faith groups in this country that Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth have connections with groups abroad. Open Doors and, Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and 857 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 858

[Sir Tony Baldry] People are of course concerned about all forms of suffering. We only have to look at the fantastic responses Skegness (Mark Simmonds), and the Foreign Office is to natural catastrophes, such as the contributions made that this issue needs a much higher profile. I would be in relation to the recent typhoon in the Philippines, for interested to know when my hon. Friend, the Secretary which people in my constituency have set out to raise of State or any other ministerial colleague last raised money. The idea that people should not be concerned with the ambassador of Saudi Arabia the comments of about what happens in other parts of the world is the mufti who said that he wished to see every Christian typical of the liberal media in this country. The fact is church in the Arabian peninsula destroyed. Such comments that people are concerned, and we are right to raise such cause us all great concern. issues by highlighting the persecution that Christians face and providing a voice to those oppressed because Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Does my hon. Friend of their faith. share my concern that despite our great presence in The persecution of Christians is not new—we know Afghanistan over many years, there is now no Christian from historical records that there have been persecutions church left there? since biblical times—but the staggering fact is that Christianity is the most persecuted faith in the world Sir Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend introduced an excellent today, with more than 100,000 Christians killed because Westminster Hall debate on this issue and she makes of their faith each year, which is one every 11 minutes. her points very well. According to the World Evangelical Alliance, more Every week, because of my responsibilities in this than 200 million Christians are denied fundamental House, I read the excellent newspaper the Church Times, human rights because of their faith. Over the past three and every week it has heart-rending stories of Christians years, the situation has deteriorated globally. being persecuted in Pakistan, Syria, Egypt and a whole The Government’s responsibility should be to highlight host of other countries. Those stories never get reported to other Governments what is going on and to uphold in the mainstream newspapers. There is serious under- the human rights of everyone suffering persecution for reporting of what is happening to Christians, many of their faith, but particularly Christians, given the severity whom—this is true of generations of Christians throughout of the purge now happening in many regions of the world. the centuries—are being evicted, persecuted and driven To follow on from what the hon. Member for Congleton from their homelands. (Fiona Bruce) said, it is particularly painful that in I would really like both Front Benchers to understand Afghanistan, where there has been so much suffering that what the House is trying to say today is that it is not and sacrifice by our troops and where so much aid and prepared to continue to stand by while there is global assistance has been given, no churches at all are left, persecution of Christians. They should not think that and Christians are unable to meet in public because the line they want to take is sufficient. A step change they have been subject to numerous cases of kidnapping, and something different is required in response to the assassinations and abductions. fact that 200 million Christians are now threatened with The same applies in Iraq. Canon Andrew White, who persecution, the loss of the right to practise their faith has been mentioned, has said that Christians in Iraq and the loss of their livelihoods, homes and even lives. “are frightened even to walk to church because they might come That is not acceptable; it has to change. under attack. All the churches are targets… We used to have 1.5 million Christians, now we have probably only 200,000 left… 5.10 pm There are more Iraqi Christians in Chicago than there are here.” The debate on the persecution of Christians that the hon. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): It is a real Lady initiated in Westminster Hall focused on that area. pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir The Arab spring, which has been welcomed by so Tony Baldry). I agree with everything that he said about many, has turned out to be a chilling experience for the Front Benchers’ approach to this debate, as well as Christians in that region. They are being disproportionately about the equivalence of human rights. affected by the violence. In Egypt and Syria, Christianity Of course all hon. Members from both sides agree is effectively and systematically being wiped out altogether. that everybody’s human rights should be protected, but In Saudi Arabia—the shadow Minister, the hon. Member it does no good to sit back and pretend that there is no for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), mentioned that it is particular problem about the persecution of Christians second country on the Open Doors watch list—there is in the world today. We need to highlight that, and not no provision whatever for religious freedom among its feel guilty or feel that we must be politically correct all people. the time. We should say it as it is, and be very clear that The Senior Minister of State in another place, who there is a real issue, as hon. Members have already has responsibility for faith and communities, recently highlighted. said that Christians are often targeted for “collective I was interviewed about this debate on BBC Radio punishment”, as some groups believe that they are Ulster this morning. The thrust of the four questions responsible for what are perceived as injustices committed put to me was, “Why on earth are you calling this by the west. That is particularly striking in communist debate? What’s it about?” The subtext was that the countries, such as North Korea, which is the first country debate is not really that important. I have come to on the Open Doors watch list, and China. expect that from the BBC, but I have found in my constituency and across Northern Ireland—I am sure David Simpson: Is it not ironic that we have got to the that the same goes for many right hon. and hon. point in the world, and indeed in Europe, where other Members—that people are concerned when there is religions are admitting that Christianity is under severe suffering. pressure and faces severe persecution? 859 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 860

Mr Dodds: I agree with my hon. Friend. It is worth restating that while any persecution of any I pay tribute to the organisations that are doing their faith is wrong, the pressure on Christians is particular level best to highlight what is going on. Open Doors, and acute. We must face the fact that in some parts of Christian Solidarity Worldwide, the Barnabas Fund the world, that persecution comes from a religious/political and Aid to the Church in Need are just some of the ideology. I regret to say that some, although not all, organisations that highlight the persecution of Christians. elements of the Islamic world demonstrate that problem. In some cases, the persecution comes from states—China I will not go through a list of all the countries where and other states have been mentioned—that are aggressively Christians are being persecuted. I have mentioned a few secular. It is right for us to say that it is not good enough and other hon. Members have raised the issues in for a nation’s constitution to say that people have freedom countries such as North Korea and China. However, I of religion as long as it is through a state-approved want to mention Nigeria in particular. There is a growing Church. It is not acceptable for one part of a constitution problem in Africa, where Islamist extremism has penetrated to say that freedom of religion is guaranteed but another much of what is happening in many countries in terms part to undermine that by saying that a particular form of uprisings and destabilisation, for example. In Nigeria, of Islamic jurisprudence trumps all others, as in Egypt. there is a serious attempt by Boko Haram to create an Islamic state and to annihilate Christians and Christianity. I could also mention Kenya, Eritrea, where the situation Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Will my hon. Friend is particularly bad, and the Central African Republic, give way? among others. Robert Neill: I hope my hon. Friend will forgive me This debate provides an opportunity for the for not giving way; time is short, and I want to make representatives of this United Kingdom to speak out progress so that others can get in. and highlight the problems that are faced by Christians worldwide, and to ask that our Government do even I hope that the Government will use the leverage that more through their bilateral relations, their aid programme they have. That is why I do not have any problem at all and their foreign relations to make it clear that there with our developing trade links with China—I hope must be consequences for countries that continue to that we can use the leverage that comes with that violate human rights on such a massive scale, even if developing relationship to remind people that, as other our country has close links with them in other ways. Members have said, membership of the club of modern Article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights economies should bring with it respect for religious needs to be upheld and defended, and never more so freedom, and for Christians in particular. than in this day and age, when the persecution of One particular concern is the situation of Christians Christians is so rife. in the Arab world. They face discrimination in almost every country of the Arab world, with perhaps the only 5.17 pm notable exception being Lebanon. The latest Open Doors Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): May list of the 50 worst countries in which to be a Christian I, too, warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford includes every Arab world country. It is legitimate, as a (Jim Shannon) and his party on securing this debate? I matter of policy, for us to seek to use our leverage to could not agree more with the sentiments that have been change that situation. expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury I have friends and contacts in Egypt, and Members (Sir Tony Baldry) and the right hon. Member for Belfast have referred to the situation of the Coptic Church North (Mr Dodds). there, which has been established for centuries, almost I say gently to the Front Benchers on both sides of millennia. That situation has got worse because of the Chamber that, however good their intentions, we political and religious persecution over the past few should not be afraid, in the Parliament of a country months. Again, I hope that the Government will use the that still has an established Christian Church, to phrase leverage that we can have with Egypt to ensure that the a debate in terms of religion or Christianity. Christianity new draft constitution not only reflects a genuine right can benefit everyone in any society. It gives us in this to religious freedom for all, particularly the Coptic country a shared moral compass that binds us together. community, but entrenches it in practice. For example, It offers the same to believer and non-believer, Christian it should remove discriminatory provisions regarding and non-Christian alike, not just in this country but the building of Christian churches, which evoke laws elsewhere. We should therefore not be at all afraid to that go back to the Ottoman era and have been a speak up about the persecution that Christians face. problem in Egypt. We have a chance to work with the May I join other hon. Members in paying tribute to interim Government in Egypt to achieve a genuinely the work of organisations such as Open Doors, which better constitution for all religious minorities, but the provided me with valuable material for a recent debate reality is that the largest and most pressured religious on this subject in the Parliamentary Assembly of the minority in Egypt is the Christian minority. We should Council of Europe, and Christian Solidarity Worldwide, not be afraid to say that. which came to my constituency surgery recently to Like other Members, I hope that we can consider highlight these matters? Canon Andrew White has rightly what more support we can give beleaguered Christian been mentioned. I also commend to the Government communities in Iraq and Syria, which are some of the the work of the former Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael oldest in the Christian world, through the Geneva II Nazir-Ali, in whose former diocese my constituency process. It would be a tragedy if the Arab spring, which lies. If Ministers have not met or spoken to Dr Nazir-Ali, we all welcomed, turned into a winter of oppression I hope that they will do so, because he has shed light on and discontent for Christians. That is not in the interests the persecution in his native country of Pakistan and of the Muslim majority in those countries any more elsewhere. than it is of Christians. 861 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 862

[Robert Neill] that many will also have visited Malaysia as tourists—as I did many years ago—and appreciated a tolerant, We should not be afraid of doing religion in this respectful, gentle and hospitable people, and a society House occasionally. I hope that if we can have this with the reputation for being a Muslim state, but one debate, it means that we have got to a happier place, and steadfastly multicultural with Malay, Chinese, Indian I hope that the Government will reflect on that when and other significant minority communities that include, they take on board what has been said today.Governments according to the 2010 census, 9.2% of the population are entitled to do religion sometimes, because religion who are practising Christians. can be for the good of all of society. Malaysia is an important Commonwealth partner for the UK, and has had a significant trading and strategic 5.22 pm relationship with this country over many years. Because Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ of that background, it is right to be concerned about Co-op): I am pleased to have the chance to make a short recent worrying signs in Malaysia, and to draw them to contribution to this timely and important debate. I, too, the attention of the Government through this debate. congratulate DUP Members on choosing this subject. Some Christian communities in Malaysia are now very Many Members who are in the Chamber today were much in fear of being able to practise their faith without also present for the Westminster Hall debate that the interference, or with limits on their ability to observe hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) secured on their faith in peace. the persecution of Christians in the middle east. During Christians in Malaysia fear persecution because they that debate I made a short intervention to highlight the have been banned from using the word “Allah”, which real concerns of the Christian community in Malaysia. has been used as terminology for God in Malay for The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth centuries. That has effectively meant that in some parts Office, the right hon. Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), of Malaysia the Bible has been outlawed. When a who was responding to the debate, rightly said from a concern was raised—or an attempt was made to raise sedentary position that Malaysia was not in the middle it—in the state legislative assembly in Sarawak, it was east. I understand that, but it highlights the importance ruled out of order and sub judice, so the legitimate of this debate in enabling us to discuss places outside concerns of Sarawak Christians about the Malaysia the middle east in which there is significant concern agreement that governs the relationship stretching back about how members of the Christian faith are treated. 50 years between the peninsula and other parts of Malaysia, have effectively been censured. Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): Can the hon. Although freedom of religion is supposedly guaranteed Gentleman explain to the House why so few of his by article 11 of the Malaysian constitution, the reality Labour colleagues are in the Chamber this afternoon for many is quite different. In his introduction to the for a very important debate about the persecution of debate, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) Christians? I am absolutely baffled by their absence. referred—I think in the context of Nigeria—to Christian Tom Greatrex: I was going to say that I thanked the children being whipped. It has come to my attention hon. Lady for her intervention. I am not sure why that there are significant reports of Christian children others are not here. I specifically want to make a case in being whipped for eating pork, and of Christian children relation to Malaysia, which I hope will help to illuminate who have to board in state schools because of where the debate and add another aspect to it. they live being forced to convert to Islam. Last month the Malaysian Government’s religious affairs department, Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Does my hon. which is part of the Prime Minister’s office, reportedly Friend agree that it is entirely appropriate that he mentions issued a sermon to be read in every mosque in Malaysia, Malaysia? The persecution of Christians is a worldwide condemning supposedly liberal forces undermining Islam. problem and is not specific to one small part of the The implication taken by many people in Malaysia was world, and the subject of today’s debate is the persecution that it was aimed at those who practise the Christian of Christians in the 21st century. faith. With Portuguese, Spanish and indeed British colonial Tom Greatrex: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention influences, it is not surprising that there is a significant and he is absolutely right. The case I wish to make is Christian community in Malaysia. They have co-existed about a country that is often portrayed in a very different with others, perfectly happily, for many years since way, and I hope that this debate will bring more attention independence more than 50 years ago, but Christians in to a situation that I have been made aware of in recent Malaysia now fear that the country may be embarking months by a constituent. on a dangerous path. The Minister for Islamic Affairs I am contributing to this debate not so much from the in Sarawak, Daud Abdul Rahman, has called for members perspective of a practising Christian as from the perspective of the Sarawak Islamic religious department to be of somebody who is deeply and fundamentally committed upgraded to become a sharia prosecution department, to ensuring that human rights are properly protected. and to be supplied with firearms. According to “Free The religious activity and practices of people in any Malaysia Today”, he said: country, as long as they do not harm anybody else, is of “With this departmentalization, it can enhance the ability of little interest or direct concern to me, but their ability to the prosecution and thereby strengthening Islamic Sharia law in observe their faith is absolutely of concern. That is why Sarawak.” I want to raise some points about Malaysia this afternoon. There is real concern that such behaviour has relatively Many Members present will have seen the “Malaysia little to do with religion or the tolerance and understanding Truly Asia” tourist advertising campaign, which has that religion can often promote, but that it is about been stunningly successful over a long period. I am sure seeking to create supporters who identify with one 863 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 864 political party as pro-Islam, and brand their political the concept of freedom of religion or belief is of paramount opponents as anti-Islam. That is a dangerous road to importance. While this debate rightly focuses on the take, because it unleashes mindless aggression, prejudice unacceptable persecution of Christians in countless places and fear. The non-Muslims of east Malaysia are right around the world, we must also condemn any instances to be fearful of where that might lead next. Shocking of persecution against any religion. situations can arise when countries of mixed religions That was the position we took as our starting point and races allow and encourage the development of for our first report, on article 18 of the universal declaration extremism and prejudice, even in our modern world. of human rights. We made a series of recommendations Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience to the Government on measures that we think different and religion. That right includes freedom to change Departments should take to help to improve the situation religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community, around the world, including an ambassador-level position in public or in private, to manifest religion or belief in with responsibility for promoting freedom of religion teaching, practice, worship and observance. or belief; putting pressure on the UN to find sufficient Father Lawrence, the editor of The Catholic Herald funding to support a full-time special rapporteur on in Malaysia, refutes claims that there is a concerted freedom of religion or belief; and calling on the Department movement to convert Muslims to Christianity, and for International Development to identify freedom of highlights what I think is my principal aim: to express religion or belief as a new priority in its work. the need for tolerance and acceptance. He stated recently: It is also right for us to mention, in the context of this “Ask these people making these claims how many Muslim debate, the superb work already being done by Christian persons have converted to Christianity. Ask the Attorney General stakeholders on behalf of both their own community what is the meaning of ‘Our Father’ and ‘Hail Mary’. He will say and the numerous other different communities experiencing that he studied in a Catholic school. Did he convert? No, he is still persecution, including humanists. Most recently, Gregorios a Muslim. Ask Prime Minister Razak if he knows the ‘Our Father’, because he also studied at St John’s Institution, a Catholic III, Patriarch of the Church of Antioch, came to talk to school.” us about the dreadful plight of Syria’s substantial Christian These men were schooled in a Christian environment, community, which since 2011 has been ripped apart by but were free to practise their own faith. The problem in the bloody conflict there. His response to the outrageous Malaysia now is that it seems that the Government’s events was to say: policies are effectively making that impossible for “We call for dialogue, reconciliation and mutual respect for people in the other direction. I implore the Minister and and among parties and for the crisis to be resolved by peaceful means.” his colleagues, when they represent the Government abroad—taking into account the important, specific Among the Christians there are many Iraqi Christians and specialist relationship between the UK and other who sought refuge in Syria after experiencing persecution countries around the world, such as Malaysia—to use in Iraq, and have now found themselves driven out of that opportunity to highlight the fact that human rights the country that had become their new home and safe are also about the right to practise religion without fear haven. of prosecution. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) Several hon. Members rose— (SNP): Is not one of the concerns that we had when Parliament was recalled a few months ago and we were Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. asked to vote on intervening in Syria what effect that Perhaps I can just advise the House that, when the time might have on the Christians within Syria, particularly limit on Back-Bench speeches was set at six minutes, given the experience in Iraq? there were an intended 15 contributors, since which time two hon. Members have withdrawn. I am therefore Angie Bray: It was certainly made very clear to us in the happy position of being able to raise the limit. when we heard from the Patriarch that he felt that a My apologies to those who had to adhere to the shorter peaceful means was the only way to help the Christians limit, but I am now raising the limit to eight minutes and many others caught up between the two sides who with immediate effect. The first beneficiary is Angie found themselves in such a difficult situation. Bray. Syria, and the middle east in general, is perhaps the most shocking, recent and obvious example of the fact 5.32 pm that violence against Christians and other religious Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): Thank communities is on the rise, yet as a recent report from you, Mr Speaker, but I intend to be brief as I am Aid to the Church in Need set out, this is a truly looking forward to hearing what other Members have worldwide problem. While it is concerning that a region to say. I join others in commending Democratic Unionist such as the middle east, once so widely populated by Members for securing this important and timely debate, Christian communities living in peace and harmony just a matter of weeks before Christmas. with their non-Christian neighbours, is now seeing a As I have mentioned in the House before, I am proud huge decline in the number of Christians living there, to be an officer and active member of the all-party this problem is growing in many parts of the world. group on international religious freedom or belief, which Only by looking at religious persecution globally can has been up and running for nearly a year and a half. In we stand a chance of protecting people and their faith. that time, we have built up a strong membership, including Understanding the complex reasons for sectarianism on the Archbishop of Canterbury and a list of key supporters a local level is clearly essential because of the different from many different religions and representatives of forms it takes in all manner of far-flung places. Again, those who choose not to have any religion. At the heart as part of our group’s work, we recently heard from the of the group is the passionate message that protecting Indonesian ambassador, who briefed us on the situation 865 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 866

[Angie Bray] It goes on even today. Within the last month, hundreds of people, from Nigeria to Eritrea to Kazakhstan to facing Christians who experience persecution on some China, have been arrested and put in prison simply of the islands that make up Indonesia. He described because of their faith, and when they go into prison how organised outside influences can stir up local feelings they are denied due process. They are denied access to in a deliberate manner, sowing the seeds of persecution. lawyers. They are sometimes even denied knowledge of The Government, he told us, do not always find it easy the charges facing them. They can languish in prison for to tackle the problem because of the geographical nature a long time and in horrible conditions. of Indonesia. Any other overseas problem on that scale would have been a priority for the Foreign Office, yet the Minister Bob Stewart: On that point, I have met mujaheddin and the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman attempted groups who have told me, cold-bloodedly, that their job to widen this topic, rather than to zone in on the real was to come and kill Christians. That was in Bosnia in issue, which is this is a particular group of people who 1993. are being persecuted. As has been pointed out, this is not only happening in Angie Bray: I thank my hon. Friend for that important Muslim countries. From Morocco to Pakistan, Christians intervention. In fact, I was just going on to make in Muslim countries are under threat, but it happens similar points myself. elsewhere too. One of the concerns I raised when the Pew Research Centre recently briefed our group on its latest figures on Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman will know, as I do religious persecution across the world, either by Government from my parliamentary postbag, of the persecution of or by local populations, was that sometimes it is surely Baha’is, particularly in Iran. Does he agree that regardless neither Government nor local populations that start the of whether those persecuted are Baha’is, Christians or problem, but insidious third-party forces that operate whatever, a message must come out from a plurality of across national boundaries in a global fashion in pursuit voices that the persecution of people on the basis of of their own, often extreme, religious ideologies. We their faith is a very un-Islamic thing to do? have to think about how we deal with this growing phenomenon—fed, in this modern age, by the internet, Sammy Wilson: Absolutely, and I think that is the as well as by determined preachers on the ground. point we need to be making in the House. Persecution Today’s debate asks us to focus on the plight of of people of whatever faith by people of whatever faith Christian communities across the world, but I think this is wrong. leads us to considering a much wider picture of persecution We can go beyond the Islamic countries to Korea, of all kinds of faith and, indeed, of those who wish to where 70,000 Christians languish in prison, some of live without faith. Homing in on one kind of persecution them in the most horrible conditions. I do not want to might help us to consider what could be done for other start telling lots of individual stories, but one struck me faiths, too. As the Archbishop of Canterbury said recently in particular. We found in Northern Ireland during the after the tragic bombings of Christian churches in troubles that people can get numbed by numbers—they Peshawar: come to be seen as just statistics, rather than as highlighting “We need to condemn the persecution of anyone on behalf of the real suffering behind them—but 6,000 Christians their faith.” are languishing in prison No. 15 in North Korea. They As we are discovering as the all-party group continues are regularly brought out on a Sunday, and two people its work, almost every faith is persecuted somewhere in are selected and paraded in front of the rest of their the world, and we must all stand together to resist this fellow Christians, stabbed with pointed bamboos and and to work to uphold article 18 of the universal called on to renounce their faith because then the declaration of human rights, which asserts the right of torture will then stop. Many of them, of course, finish everyone to choose their faith or none—and, indeed, to up being murdered because they will not renounce their change their mind if they wish. faith. Leaving aside the huge numbers, that is the kind of horror and individual human suffering we are talking 5.39 pm about. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): It is a great joy As the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward to have the opportunity to speak in this debate, which is Leigh) said, when the Nazis carried out such acts in important because of the scale of the problem, because concentration camps we pursued the prison guards and of the individual suffering that people experience across those responsible to the ends of the earth, to prosecute the world, and because this issue is actually sanctioned them and to make sure they were brought to justice, yet by the Governments of many countries, demanding a it seems there is not the same response when it comes to response from the UK Government. the persecution of Christians. That is not just to do with The scale of the problem has been outlined very well the Government, of course. It is to do with the media, by previous speakers. Some 200 million Christians are too. I thought it was striking that when 80 Christians under severe risk of persecution, with many thousands were blown up at the beginning of November as they killed every year and ethnically cleansed from their worshiped in Pakistan, the BBC found it so important towns and homeland. Some 50,000 Christians have that it came below the Emmy awards in the news been cleared from the city of Homs in Syria during the agenda. That seems to be the level of seriousness that is civil war. In Eritrea people are being imprisoned on a attached to such issues. regular basis. In Sudan before it was partitioned, over a One of the reasons for that sort of response is that, in 30-year period 2 million Christians were killed by the many instances, such persecution is actually sponsored, regime. That is the scale of the problem. sanctioned and encouraged by the Governments of the 867 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 868 countries concerned. We have already heard the Grand 5.49 pm Mufti of Saudi Arabia calling for the destruction of all Christian churches on the peninsula. Human Rights Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): It Watch has said that the most dangerous place for a is a real pleasure and a privilege to follow the hon. person to be a Christian today is Pakistan, and that Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). I pay tribute much of that persecution is sanctioned by the Government to the Democratic Unionist party for choosing this there. A lot of the persecution of Christians in Nigeria important topic for debate. I come from a Muslim is fomented by official sources—and so it goes on background, and my father was an imam. When I saw around the world. When we point to and specify the that the topic was “Persecution of Christians in the persecution of Christians, perhaps we are actually pointing 21st century”, I knew that it was absolutely right and the finger at Governments who, possibly for political proper to have a debate on that subject. It is important reasons, we sometimes need as allies, and at Governments for the world to realise that persecution goes on. I was who, for commercial reasons, we need as trade partners. speaking to a good friend of mine, the former Bishop of If that is the reason we are not prepared to be specific Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali, about this, and he told about this persecution, it is a great shame on the me that the persecution of Christians was taking place Government of our country. in more than 130 of the 190 countries in the world at the moment. That is completely and utterly unacceptable; it Mr MacNeil: Although we have our concerns about is a very sad state of affairs. persecution, perhaps we should be highlighting good When I was thinking about which area to focus on in practice where it occurs. There are indeed Islamic countries the debate, it was difficult for me to decide because the that are tolerant, and perhaps we should hold up the persecution is so widespread. When it is taking place in examples of Senegal, Bangladesh and Turkey, where more than 130 countries, which country should I pick? I there is a lot more tolerance compared with the societies narrowed it down and chose a country that I know well. we are concentrating on. We should make it clear that I was born in Pakistan and had the great privilege, there are examples of Islamic states in which we would pleasure and honour of serving as an adviser to the all be quite happy to live. former Prime Minister, Benazir Bhutto. She wanted reform, but she lost her life. She wanted a progressive Sammy Wilson: I am not so sure about the human Pakistan, but the radicalisation elements and certain rights situation in the countries that the hon. Gentleman others did not agree. mentions. That is why, when I saw the topic for the debate, I had What can and should be done? I know this is a debate to choose Pakistan as the subject of my speech. The about what the Government should do, but the media persecution of Christians is a major problem there, and have a responsibility. Where such unpleasant things are I want to focus on the blasphemy laws. I recently read happening, they should be given proper coverage that is an article published by the Centre for Legal Aid, Assistance communicated to the wider world. Baroness Warsi said and Settlement, an organisation that covers the persecution in Georgetown last month that it is important that we of Christians in Pakistan and abroad, which stated: get an international coalition against such abuses, and that includes not just Governments but journalists, “The Blasphemy law is at the root of much suffering and persecution of Christians in Pakistan. The use and abuse of this judges and all the people who can bring to the notice of law is the fundamental issue underpinning discrimination and the world the abuses taking place, do something about open violence against Christians and local churches”. them, and deal with those engaged in them. As has been mentioned, we give aid to many of these Sammy Wilson: The hon. Gentleman can obviously countries. I do not accept the argument that, by denying speak from experience in his own country. Does he aid to them, we in some way disadvantage the people accept that when Muslims stand up for Christians in who live there. If that were the case, we would not Pakistan, they too put themselves at risk? When the impose sanctions anywhere, because there will always governor of Punjab stood up for and visited a Christian be people who are disadvantaged by sanctions. If the girl in jail, he ended up being murdered by his own aid is going to a Government who are engaged in and bodyguard. supporting these practices, it is particularly easy to make it clear that no further aid will be given. As has Rehman Chishti: I know more than many others been said, sometimes this is not a question of physical about that issue. I lost my good friend Benazir Bhutto persecution but of economic or educational discrimination. to radicalisation. She was two weeks away from winning When we think about how we spend our aid money, an election, after which things could have changed. We perhaps it should be targeted at persecuted groups. had discussed reforming the blasphemy laws, but she We have talked about the ability of the Commonwealth was never able to do that. That is the problem in to put pressure on the Governments of countries across Pakistan, and the hon. Gentleman has highlighted it the world over which we have some influence, where very well. The governor of Punjab, Salman Taseer, had these abuses take place. This requires a concerted effort. raised the case of Asia Bibi, a Christian. She is a It requires us not to be politically correct, but to have 46-year-old mother of six children, and she is still in the courage to say, “This is happening to a particular prison in Pakistan. She was supposed to be pardoned group of people. It will not be tolerated, and there will by the President in 2010, but owing to pressure from the be things which this Government will do.” radical right, she was never freed. That was totally I have asked many questions about this. I have been unacceptable. Pope Benedict said that what was happening told that the Government are aware of the situation and to her was unacceptable and called for her release. that they are monitoring it, looking into it and pressing However, she is still in prison in Pakistan and facing the the matter. We need more than that when people’s lives death penalty. People in Pakistan stand up for her, but are being put at risk in this way. they know what the dangers are. 869 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 870

[Rehman Chishti] Rehman Chishti: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point; he is right and I have nothing further to However, this does not mean that the Government of add. Pakistan cannot stand up and do the right thing by Apart from repealing the blasphemy laws in Pakistan, repealing a bad law. That bad law is the blasphemy law, because that may take time, what can we do now to and the abuse of that law must be dealt with. It is used push the Government of Pakistan to deal with those to settle disputes between one neighbour and another, laws? Pakistan’s ambassador to the United States has under sections that were brought in between 1980 and made comments that are similar to my view, as has 1986 by General Zia, who was himself a radical. He was Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali. He says, and I say, that, first, an extremist, and he introduced a section that stated these laws should not be dealt with by the lower courts that anyone who defamed the Prophet had to be killed. in Pakistan, because they are more susceptible to corruption That is totally unacceptable. Those sections of the and intimidation by religious groups in the communities; blasphemy law that were brought in during the Zia era secondly, that specialised prosecutors should deal with are bad law and they have to go. The Pakistan Government blasphemy laws in that country; and, thirdly, that specific could and should do that, but, as has been mentioned, judges have to deal with blasphemy laws. When I was on Governments themselves face certain pressures. They a flight from Karachi to Islamabad last year, I met can stand up, as the Minister with responsibility for 12 high court judges and a supreme court judge there. I minorities, Shahbaz Bhatti, a Christian, did. He said asked them whether I could raise certain points with that this law was wrong, but what happened to him? He them and they said that I could. I then asked whether I was killed. What happened to Salman Taseer, the Governor could raise the point about the blasphemy laws in of Punjab? He said it was wrong and he was killed. So Pakistan and they said of course I could. However, we have to understand the difficulties for Governments when I asked why the blasphemy laws were abused in in changing these laws, but they have to change them. Pakistan, the high court judges said to me, “No blasphemy law is abused in Pakistan.” If that is the mentality of Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): I have judges at the high court in Pakistan, what hope does listened with great care to the debate because the policy anyone have of justice in that country? That is why I say that I supported in the Foreign and Commonwealth that specific judges trained to deal with blasphemy Office is the subject of a certain amount of criticism. issues should deal with these cases. What my hon. Friend is touching on is important, in The other thing that should happen is that there that it is about the pressure of culture on governance? should be a body in the Ministry of Interior and Narcotics That is present in not only Pakistan, but in a number of Control that authorises prosecutions, because in that Arab countries. It makes it difficult for Governments way the process would not be subject to intimidation at who would like to respond in the manner that we would any local level. If allegations are made, cases would all wish, but they cannot because they are frightened, have to go to a specific cell in that Ministry that deals sometimes to death, by their populations. What we are with blasphemy laws and if it gives authorisation, a talking about today is as much an issue of culture that charge should follow. In that way, we could deal with some needs to change, as governance. We all wish that the abuses that are going on at the moment. That would go problem was easier to solve than it appears to be. some way to dealing with such cases, but other people may have other suggestions for dealing with them. Rehman Chishti: I am very grateful to my right hon. There is another way of addressing this issue. President Friend for that important comment. Before I address it, Zardari could have done it in 2010. I know that well may I thank him for all the hard work he did when he because I raised it with him, but he was not able to was an FCO Minister, especially in the Asia Bibi case? pardon Asia Bibi. We are all entitled to have our own He made representations to the Government of Pakistan, separate faiths and beliefs but let us think about Asia as has the high commissioner in Pakistan, Adam Thomson, Bibi. She is 46 and has five children and has been to whom I have spoken about this. My right hon. Friend languishing in prison for four years. She was condemned makes a point about how one deals with the culture. A to death by a lower court, not knowing whether her significant part of that is about changing hearts and appeal would come through. Is that a civilised world? Is minds, which is linked to the aid we give certain countries. that right and proper if it happened to one of us or If it is used properly, we can deal with the issue of someone we loved? Absolutely not. The Government of changing hearts and minds. Pakistan under a new President and Prime Minister Amnesty International has said that the blasphemy have a moral obligation to do the right thing and ensure laws in Pakistan are a form of religious persecution and that Asia Bibi is released and pardoned. that they should be repealed. I entirely agree with every Finally, when those who are persecuted for their faith word that has been said on that point. seek asylum in another country, they should be given priority. Someone being persecuted in that way could be Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is making a fantastic taken outside and shot under the blasphemy laws, so speech, on which I congratulate him. Is the message giving priority to those who are seeking asylum and that is coming strongly from his speech that when who have been persecuted on grounds of their faith is persecution takes root, no matter where it is aimed, it the right way forward. ultimately ends in the persecution of a number of people in society to whom one would never have imagined it happening at the beginning? As he well knows, the 6pm persecution extended so far in Pakistan that it led to the Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): It speaks a death of his friend Benazir Bhutto. In some ways, that great deal to the credit of this House that the brother of was an end point to that very sad persecution—it went a priest can follow the son of an imam, that I can be everywhere. seated behind an ordained Presbyterian Minister and 871 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 872 that, in front of both of us, is the nephew of Sister fellow co-religionists. The power of prayer is immense Assumpta, a Presentation Sister from Dungarvan in and it has an incredible force. Let us never forget County Waterford. All of us present and those not suffering Christians in our prayers. Let us continue to present in the Chamber are united in our respect and do that. Advent might be a couple of days old, but this admiration for the Democratic Unionist party in raising is a powerful season for prayer. this debate tonight, particularly for the hon. Member On the question of Iraq, I would like seriously to for Strangford (Jim Shannon). He is a man who does suggest to the Minister that we consider supporting the not just profess his faith in private and does not just talk idea of an autonomous Christian district in northern the talk, but lives his faith. In the words of Timothy, Iraq on the Nineveh plains, particularly in the Tel Kaif he is an example, and we all have reason to be grateful and Al-Hamdaniya area. That has been suggested for to him. many years—they are ancient Christian Assyrian Chaldean We are here to discuss a situation that is beyond lands—but they would not be exclusively for Christians. doubt. There is no question that Christians are the most It has been said over and over again that this will be for persecuted single group in the world today on grounds the local community and would allow a breathing space of religion. It is one thing to talk about persecution and for Christians. It would allow that simple, basic right to to list the horrors, but when one thinks of Christians in worship our shared God in the place of God. Why can this century, in this very year, being crucified in Iraq, we we not support that? realise the depth of sheer horror that we are looking at. The hon. Member for Strangford has already mentioned Dedolence is not an emotion that usually informs this Emad Youhanna, who was attacked with a suicide House. The emotion that most of us feel when we hear bomb outside his house. That did not happen in the last such things is of a very deep and genuine sort. century, or in the last decade—it happened on 22 September I would like to focus my remarks on one small area, 2013 in Kirkuk, in Rafigayn. Emad Youhanna is a and that is the area of Iraq. My hon. Friend the member of the Assyrian Democratic Movement and of Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) and I, the Iraqi national Parliament. That bomb injured 19 people, with our good friend Emmanuel Yacoub from the Assyrian including three of Rab Emad Youhanna’s children. Democratic Movement, visited Iraq quite recently. It I seriously suggest that we could support the idea of a was an extraordinary and overwhelming emotion to be safe haven. I understand that a strange argument is standing in the desert that nurtured the Desert Fathers, emerging that Christian communities were safer during to be in the plains of Nineveh, to see the tomb of the what is still called “Saddam time” in Iraq. That is a false Prophet Nahum, and to be in the area where Christianity argument. There might not have been slaughter on the first found its feet and grew. If Armenia was the first streets, but when the dictator runs a dictatorship no one ever Christian country in the year 301, the Christian is free and the Christians who were tolerated one day history in the middle east is so deep that it goes back to could be slaughtered the next, so please let no one make the birth and the death of our Lord Jesus Christ. the case that, under Assad or Saddam Hussein, it was I know that the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir somehow a golden period for Christians. It might have Edward Leigh) visited the area immediately before us. been less worse, but in the long term the doom was just He has spoken on the matter far more eloquently and as serious. powerfully than ever I could. One does not have to be a I suggest that we remember our co-religionists in our genius to areolate the future of Iraq. A country that prayers and support the idea, particularly in the north once had a Christian population the size of Northern of Iraq in the plains of Nineveh, of an autonomous Ireland now has a Christian population less than that of Chaldean Assyrian region. Anyone who has stood as the borough of Ealing. Many of the people who have the hon. Member for Gainsborough, my hon. Friend left, particularly those who served the British as the the Member for Dumfries and Galloway and I have and Iraqi levies—I think of the great families in my own felt the chill fear that abounds in those hot, burning constituency of the Khorshabas, the Michaels and the desert sands will know that we cannot stand by and do Jasos and the family of my good friends Jenie and Isaac nothing. We must support these people. This is the land Asia—gave an enormous amount to the British. Talking where Christ’s message was first promulgated to huge about targeting assistance and help at Christian numbers. It is an area and a land that we must respect. communities simply identifies them and makes them a It is a holy land; let us make it safe for Christians. target in the other sense of the word, and many of the Christian communities in Iraq are already targeted. 6.8 pm It was a tradition of the British during imperial times Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I very much to work with a particular group of people. One might agree with all that my good friend the hon. Member for think of the Tamils in Sri Lanka, and particularly of Ealing North (Stephen Pound) has said and support the the Christian communities such as the Chaldean Assyrians comments on Assyria. I do not know whether you in Iraq. They worked loyally and faithfully with the managed to get some rest on Sunday, Mr Speaker, and British and we promised them at that time that they watch once again on BBC4 the excellent French film would be free to practise their religion. Sadly, that is not entitled “Of Gods and Men”. It is a very beautiful film the case. about the appalling murder of six Benedictine monks in Frankly, many of us are overwhelmed by the immensity the Atlas mountains. It is such a moving film because and the horror and we wonder what best we can do. The there is one scene in which Father Christian confronts hon. Member for Strangford probably said the most one of the terrorists—the same terrorist who ultimately important thing, and I make this point extremely seriously. decapitates him and his fellow monks. Father Christian There is one thing we must do. We must assist wherever starts reading from the Koran in Arabic and quotes we can financially and materially and we must raise the directly the passages that exhort all Muslims to be profile, but we must never, ever forget to pray for our peaceful to other religions. The terrorist completes the 873 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 874

[Sir Edward Leigh] There was an appalling case in All Saints church in Peshawar in which 120 Christians were blown up. How verse. That makes most powerfully the point that we much publicity was there about that case? If a similar should make in this debate: in practising our own outrage were perpetrated by a Christian suicide bomber religion, in no way do we diminish the practice of other going into a mosque and blowing up 120 Muslims, it religions or people’s ability to practise their religion in would be considered appalling, and the House can any way they wish. imagine the consequences worldwide for Christians. Fiona Bruce: Will my hon. Friend give way? I am afraid that, for all the warm words from the Foreign Office, there is still a lack of real determination Sir Edward Leigh: I shall give way only once in a to speak out. We have been in this space before, with the moment. persecution of the Jews in the 1930s and the persecution Many of the people we are discussing—the persecuted of many minorities over time, where we as a Government Christians of the world—are the poorest of the poor. In have drawn back because of trade and other considerations Pakistan in particular, they are very much at the bottom of national policy, and we have not been prepared to of the heap, and they are denied human rights. All that speak up for minorities. they require in their simple lives is an ability to practise I want to follow what my friend the hon. Member for their religion, so this debate sends a powerful message Ealing North, said, because I have been there. Like him, about their right to freedom of expression. I have been to Iraq, and I can assure you, Mr Speaker, that there is nothing more terrible than what happened Fiona Bruce: My hon. Friend says that in no way do to a mother I spoke to. The last time she saw her child we diminish other people’s right to practise their religion was when he went off to church with her husband. The if we practise our own. Society has enhanced that right: husband was kidnapped and never seen again. The where we respect the right of one religion and people of child was murdered just because of his religion—for no one faith to practise their faith, we respect all if we other reason. My friend and I will never forget those respect that properly. conversations, because those attacks revealed an appalling Sir Edward Leigh: I would like to echo what my hon. level of hate. We invaded Iraq and we have a responsibility, Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) said so we cannot pass by on the other side. Maybe we in his powerful speech. It is slightly regrettable—I say invaded for good reasons, but we do have a responsibility. this gently—that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary spoke at the beginning of the debate. It is increasingly Stephen Pound: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the practice for Ministers to speak early in debates—I it was extraordinarily humbling and salutary to realise make this point particularly to you, Mr Speaker—but it that the language in which that mother addressed us is important that they listen carefully and respond. through a translator was Aramaic, the language of our [Interruption.] The Minister will give a winding-up Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? speech, but it will be much shorter than it would have been. Sir Edward Leigh: It was moving. To listen to a mass I have taken part in every one of these debates, and I in Aramaic is an extraordinary experience. have heard this Foreign Office speech many times before. Dare I say that I do not detect a sense of burning anger I make no apology for Saddam Hussein, and I quite about what is happening to Christians? This is something understand the comments that have been made about that has increased, and it is one of the most terrible Iraq, but things have become much worse since the things happening in the world today. Of course we invasion. The fact of the matter is that Iraq’s Christian should regret, attack and be angry about any persecution population has fallen from around 1.2 million to around of any religion. The hon. Member for Bristol East 600,000, because tens of thousands have fled. When I (Kerry McCarthy) mentioned that Christians were was in Mosul, in ancient Nineveh, Christians were persecuted in 105 countries, or their human rights were being murdered and dozens of families were fleeing. somehow limited, but she immediately tried to be relative—I Where did they flee to? They fled to Syria. What did we think that there is a danger of relativism in this debate—and have a debate about at the end of August? We had a said that there were 101 countries where Muslims had debate, once again, on the need to bomb Syria. Thank their rights affected. That may be strictly true, but the God some of us refused to support that and the House fact of the matter is that the overwhelming number of of Commons said no. Otherwise, what would have been really violent and dangerous persecutions, killings and the fate of the Syrians? denials of human rights are directed at Christians, I have also been to Syria and heard numerous appalling which is why we should congratulate the hon. Member examples of what is happening to innocent Christians for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who continues, year on there. Again, I make no apology for the Assad regime, year, to raise the issue. It is down to the DUP, not the but under his father there was a degree of protection. Conservative Government or the Labour Opposition, Can the Government be so sure that in arming those that this debate is taking place on the Floor of the they call the “good” rebels, or encouraging them—they House, and the hon. Gentleman is to be congratulated claim that they have in no way armed them—they are on that. not also leeching support and armaments to the bad This debate is not a relative debate about human rebels? There have been appalling examples of persecution rights. It is a debate about the persecution of Christians. in Syria. Mass graves have been found in the village of My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury, speaking Sadad, where 46 Christians were murdered and where a with all the authority of his office, and everyone who family of six—this is just one family—were blindfolded has taken part in this debate demand that the Government and shot in the head. A 26-year-old, Ninar Odisho, was take this more seriously and speak out more powerfully. shot in the street, murdered for his faith. I could go on 875 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 876 and on with such appalling examples of violence and We have these testimonies from people who are respected hatred shown towards that ancient Christian community in their own right and are highlighting the problems in the middle east. faced by Christians in this world. We should appreciate Pakistan has been mentioned. Quite rightly, there that religious freedom is one of the most important was wonderful worldwide publicity about the shooting gateways to other forms of human rights and freedoms. of Malala Yousafzai and her courage in resisting the It is regrettable that the comments by Front Benchers Taliban, but how much coverage has there been of did not reflect the rest of the debate. I hope that they Kashmala Munawar, a Christian girl who lost one leg will be able to explain, if not today, at a later stage, what and nearly lost the other when she was blown up we are going to do about the persecution of Christians because of her religion? As I said earlier, how much in Sudan and other parts of north Africa, the burning worldwide coverage has there really been of the appalling of Coptic churches in Egypt, the persecution of Christians massacre in Peshawar? in Iran, and the fact that Christians no longer exist in This debate is timely. I very much hope that when the Afghanistan. What will be done to honour the principle Minister responds he will reflect the powerful mood of of the UN declaration on the elimination of all forms of the House of Commons. This cannot go on. We cannot intolerance and of discrimination based on religion or have tens of thousands of people around the world belief? losing their human rights, or having them endangered, There is a duty on the Minister to address that issue and thousands being murdered. The Government have tonight. The Government also need to actively promote a role to play in articulating our anger. It must stop. the multinational efforts of the European Union and consider whether it might also be possible to do things 6.19 pm through the G8 and the G20. They also need to put pressure on the Governments of nations where Christians Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I commend are persecuted to take responsibility, protect religious the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for groups and eradicate intolerance. introducing this motion, along with his party, the DUP, on the persecution of Christians in the 21st century. Some of the greatest vices in the world today are This afternoon’s debate has been reflective and instructive. those of religious intolerance and sectarianism, which Many Members have spoken with a great deal of knowledge breed not only hatred and violence and the mutilation about the persecution of Christians, and not only in the of people, but the desecration of homes, families and middle east, but further afield. My hon. Friends the human life. If we believe in the principles of human Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for Belfast rights and religious freedom, we must urge the Government South (Dr McDonnell) and I receive in our mailbags to do all in their power to work with other Governments correspondence from constituents vehemently opposed throughout the EU and the world in order to ensure to the persecution of Christians. that all pressure is brought to bear to end and eradicate this iniquitous violence, terror and murder. We are opposed to the persecution not only of Christians but of all religious groups; this debate should not reflect Several hon. Members rose— sectarian or sectional attitudes or principles. However, we must recognise that Christians have been persecuted Mr Speaker: Order. The wind-up speeches need to in the middle east and in other parts of the world. As begin at 6.40 pm. Three Government Back Benchers are the former Foreign and Commonwealth Office Minister, seeking to contribute, all of whom I want to accommodate, the right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire so a degree of self-restraint and consideration would (Alistair Burt), said, this has a lot to do with cultures help. and Governments. There is a need to change the opinions of cultures and Governments to persuade people that it 6.26 pm is not right to burn Coptic churches in Egypt, to massacre Christians in Sudan and in Pakistan, or to burn people Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I out of their homes because of their religion. welcome this incredibly important debate and congratulate It is particularly significant and poignant that we are the Democratic Unionist party on securing it. I also discussing this issue at the time of Advent as we approach welcome the fact that the Under-Secretary of State for Christmas—the birth of the person who founded Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend Christianity. It is interesting that most of the persecution the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds) is happening in the countries of the middle east where and the Minister for faith, the noble Baroness Warsi, Christianity was born but where the number of Christians have noted the importance that the Government place is dwindling as they are being forced out. on the issue. Baroness Warsi has said that 83% of countries guarantee Sadly and regrettably, none of us needs to apologise freedom of religion but many are not making provision for focusing on the issue of Christian persecution or to for it. The Catholic Archbishop of England and Wales qualify why we are doing so, because the scale and said of the possible extinction of Christians in the nature of that persecution throughout the world this middle east: century is appalling. Some years ago we might have “I think in some parts of the Middle East that is probably been able to discuss the discrimination and persecution true…There are real challenges for Christians in this part of the of Christians in the context of their status as a minority world to support and get alongside them and also for politicians and argued that their human rights needed to be respected to understand that the presence of Christians is a great mediating and that we needed to do much more to protect them. factor, often for example between different segments of Islam.” That is not what we are dealing with now. When the German Chancellor addressed members of Christians throughout the world, particularly in the the Lutheran Church, she said that Christianity is middle east and Africa, are being persecuted and “the most persecuted religion in the world.” discriminated against not just because they are in a 877 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 878

[Mr David Burrowes] We must ensure that we get the language right. Persecution happens in all forms: deliberately, in burning minority—indeed, they are in a majority in some cases down churches and killing Christians, but as we have and may be equal in number in others—but because heard, also as economic discrimination by the state and they are a target. Those who are being persecuted now others, including against Christians in Iran. I took part see themselves as a target, not simply a group following in the inquiry by the all-party group on international a particular religion. That is evident from the scale of religious freedom or belief, which has shown that there the persecution. is discrimination across the board. I welcome the Minister’s comment that the issue There has been a focus on trying to restrict people to under discussion should be a litmus test of other human the private sphere; a sort of privatisation of religion. rights. It should not be picked off as simply one among President Morsi has said: many human rights that we need to debate, as the “As long as the apostate keeps it to himself…he should not be shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bristol East punished… However, someone who proclaims his apostasy in (Kerry McCarthy), suggested. We need to hold the public, and calls for others to follow suit, is a danger to society…the law and the shari’a intervene.” Minister and the Government to account every time they attend trade delegations and visit other countries, Where the rubber hits the road is when someone wants and ensure that they direct international aid to the right to change religion, particularly from a non-Christian— places. This is a litmus test of how often the issue of indeed, a Muslim—background. That is when they religious freedom is raised and of how much we can really need protection. seek improvement in countries of concern. It is important that we are clear about the language, because we want to talk not only about freedom of The Minister is an ambassador for religious freedom, worship, but about freedom to manifest one’s faith. as indeed are all the other Foreign Office Ministers. He Following the massacre at Maspero in Cairo in 2011, will, therefore, want to report back to us on occasions the Foreign Secretary said: other than dedicated debates on how much the Foreign “The freedom of religious belief…needs to be protected... The Office is doing in those countries of concern to ensure ability to worship in peace is a vital component of any…democratic that the principle of religious freedom is being upheld. society.” I welcome the comments made by the noble Baroness It is important to say that, but the Foreign Office must Warsi in Washington. Indeed, they have been echoed by go further on the ability to manifest one’s faith. Members today. She said: The Home Office must also act in relation to asylum “Across the world, people are being singled out and hounded applications from those who have converted to Christianity out simply for the faith they follow or the beliefs they hold.” and have been told, like some of my constituents, “You She said that in some countries, as we have heard, aren’t a pastor. You don’t need to go out in public and share your faith, because that isn’t your profession.” “a mass exodus is taking place, on a Biblical scale” Christians are obliged as part of their calling to go out and that and show their faith, and they need to be protected “there is real danger that Christianity will become extinct.” across the board. I welcome those important words from the Minister for I must finish, but let me say this. We have now entered faith. She also said that article 18 on the protection of the Christmas period, which is an important time to religious freedom is make it clear that we want to protect religious freedom in all its forms. I hope that our speeches will be well “the most translated article in the UN Declaration of Human heard, and that we practise what we preach in all Rights”, channels and communications. but “the least heeded” by those we share a table with at UN and EU meetings. 6.32 pm We need to ensure that the Government do God, as Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Things they have rightly said they do, and that they do so by are so bad for Christians across the world that we should protecting article 18. In particular, they need to ensure have a debate such as this at least annually. When the that this is about the manifesting of belief and sharing Archbishop of Canterbury came to the Jubilee Room, it with others, which is a key issue. We must ensure that he said that speaking out on behalf of persecuted Christians United Nations Human Rights Council resolution 16/18 really matters, because the persecutors of course want is properly implemented across the board, and I ask the to get away with what they do without anyone seeing or Minister to respond about that. noticing. That is why our debate is so important. Baroness Warsi’s meetings in January in London and Religious liberty in this country is so important because in September in New York are extremely welcome and it gives us the moral authority to raise with other important, as are the engagement on bilateral agreements, countries the concerns that we are quite properly expressing the project work and the diplomatic support that is today. I want to put on the record the Open Doors going on. That has a particular focus in relation to the world watch list of countries in which persecution is freedom to change religion, which must be properly most severe. It states that there is absolute persecution recognised, but it is important to accept that there are in North Korea; extreme persecution in Saudi Arabia, different understandings and interpretations of article Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, the Maldives, Mali, Iran, 18. We must ensure that the international covenant on Yemen, Eritrea and Syria; and severe persecution in civil and political rights is signed by the Arab countries Sudan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Ethiopia, Uzbekistan, Libya, with which we trade that have not done so: Oman, Laos, Turkmenistan, Qatar, Vietnam, Oman and Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates Mauritania. Open Doors is particularly concerned about should all sign it, as should Burma. those 23 countries on its world watch list 2013. 879 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 880

It is not too much of a parallel to say that the crisis needs a co-ordinated international response and position of Christians in the middle east in the second the British Government should take a much stronger decade of the 21st century is analogous to that of the lead in that. Having sat through the whole debate, I Jews in Germany in the 1930s. I am not the first person believe that that view is shared by many colleagues. to say that—I think Lord Alton of Liverpool has said it We need more than words, meetings, resolutions and in another place, and my hon. Friend the Member for declarations; people want to see action. As I went about Congleton (Fiona Bruce) recently said it in Westminster my constituency at the weekend, I was surprised that Hall—and it is not hyperbole to say so. several constituents came up to me and expressed their It is really important that Christians around the pleasure in seeing that this debate was taking place in world and people of other faiths have the freedom to the House. That is not something that happens often. I change faiths. May I press the Minister on what the believe that the British public are looking for more United Kingdom has done at the United Nations Human action on this issue. Rights Council? It is felt that the Organisation of Islamic I share the concern of other hon. Members over the Cooperation has blocked the issue of the freedom to comments made by the Minister in his opening remarks. convert, about which my hon. Friend the Member for However, at least he is here. The motion states that Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) spoke powerfully by “the persecution of Christians is increasing in the 21st Century” quoting President Morsi. and On occasion, our Government have not been as robust as other Governments in dealing with this issue. In a “calls on the Government to do more both in its foreign policy and through its aid work to defend and support people of speech in the other place on 9 December 2011, Lord Christian faith.” Patten said that concerns had been raised with him by Anglicans in Turkey that they were not allowed to I am disappointed that no Minister from the Department worship in public. He was told by the Government that for International Development has been here throughout nothing much could be done. However, he pointed out, the debate. I was also disappointed that no DFID by way of comparison, that the German Government Minister attended the recent Westminster Hall debate had managed to get the Turkish Government to take on the persecution of Christians in the middle east. If, action on the position of German Roman Catholics in as this Minister says, we should be providing resources Turkey. I say gently to the Minister that more could be to address this issue, that ought to be something that done on occasion. We should follow Germany’s more DFID Ministers are considering. DFID should be muscular approach in that instance. prioritising this in its aid provision. It has recognised that girls, women and whole communities can benefit When Ministers and members of the royal family from education, and it needs to wake up to the fact that travel overseas, it would be good if they made contact if we defend and strengthen people’s right to practise with Anglican priests around the world. At every level— their faith and live in a more peaceful society, it will governmental, political, cultural, business and individual— produce a more productive and flourishing society for these issues must be raised. That is how we will change all, whatever faith is being defended and supported. I the culture, as has rightly been said. therefore ask DFID to consider seriously how it will Finally, although this debate is, of course, set in the respond to the motion. overall context of human rights, there is a severe and I do not know why there has not yet been adequate pressing issue as far as Christians are concerned. involvement on the part of those involved in development work. Perhaps it is due to a misplaced fear of that 6.36 pm involvement being confused with proselytising, or being seen as being biased or as promoting western colonialism. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): As I am the last Back That is political correctness of the worst kind, because Bencher to be called to speak, I understand that I am people’s lives and livelihoods are at stake. I challenge limited to four minutes. I therefore not only thank DUP DFID to review its policies. In the Westminster Hall Members for calling the debate, but wholeheartedly debate I asked the Minister of State, Foreign and support what has been said by the hon. Members for Ealing Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member North (Stephen Pound), for South Down (Ms Ritchie), for East Devon (Mr Swire), to do that, and he said that for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for East Antrim we had the “Faith Partnership Principles” document. (Sammy Wilson), my hon. Friends the Members for But that does not address the issue. Will DFID please Enfield,Southgate(MrBurrowes),forSouthWestBedfordshire do so? (Andrew Selous), for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) and, 6.40 pm most eloquently, my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I thank (Sir Tony Baldry). all Members who have contributed to this important In the short time that I have left, I want to welcome debate. In particular, I thank my hon. Friend the Member the speech by Baroness Warsi on 16 November in for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for setting the scene of Washington, which has been referred to, in which she the many atrocities committed against Christians, and I said that persecution is the biggest challenge we face in appreciate all his efforts to raise the matter in Westminster the 21st century. She called it a “global crisis”. If, as we Hall debates and on other occasions. hear, Christianity is the most persecuted religion on I thank the Minister and shadow Minister for their earth, 80% of religious persecution is suffered by Christians, understanding, although I was somewhat concerned Christianity is at risk of eradication in countries across that they widened the debate beyond the motion. I was the globe and the situation is worsening, the persecution delighted that the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony of Christianity and Christians is a global crisis. That Baldry) brought back the proper focus in his excellent 881 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 882

[Dr William McCrea] of State for Northern Ireland? He said that of all the debates he has missed, this is the one he regrets the most contribution. The Minister acknowledged that Christians and he wishes he had been present. Unfortunately, as are the most persecuted people in the world, and I agree the hon. Gentleman and the House will understand, he with the shadow Minister that if countries want to be had to be in Stormont today. part of the human rights club, they ought to play by the rules. Dr McCrea: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast information, and I have no doubt that the shadow North (Mr Dodds) for his usual thoughtful contribution, Secretary of State would have attended this important which focused the House’s attention on the motion. The debate and been happy to participate in it. tone and content of the contribution that the hon. Article 18 of the universal declaration of human Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) rights emphasises the right to have certain freedoms, made were absolutely right. The hon. Member for and I was just thinking what an amazing thing freedom Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) was is. It was what our fathers and forefathers fought and asked about his colleagues, but we deeply appreciate his died for. Freedom of religion is a fundamental human presence and contribution. right, and the fact that my right hon. and hon. Friends We agree with the hon. Member for Ealing Central tabled this motion for debate acknowledges that for and Acton (Angie Bray) that we ought to reject the many, that freedom is being denied. persecution of anyone because of their faith. My hon. We make no apology whatsoever that the motion Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) focuses directly on a group of people worldwide who brought a tone of reality, giving chilling accounts of are increasingly becoming isolated and are constantly persecution not only by other religious groups but under attack for their simple faith in Jesus Christ. The aided by Governments and authorities in various parts sad reality is that one Christian is killed for their faith of the world. The hon. Member for Gillingham and every 11 minutes somewhere on earth, and many Rainham (Rehman Chishti) reminded us of a number Governments remain totally silent about that situation. of countries where persecution is going on, and he was It is our desire to highlight the persecution of Christians courageous in speaking personally about the situation not only in far off regions of the world, but in Europe in Pakistan. We deeply appreciate his interest and his and our own land. The list from Open Doors was contribution. helpful and gives the top 50 countries where the persecution I thank the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen of Christians happens for religious reasons. That certainly Pound) for his usual eloquent exposition of the tragedies helps our understanding and points to the number of facing Christians in Iraq. He also reminded us that we places where such persecution is going on. need to raise the profile of persecuted Christians across the world and pray for them, and I agree wholeheartedly. There is the influence of Islamic extremists, and we I thank him for his helpful and thoughtful contribution. are now witnessing an increase in the persecution of I also agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Member for Christians, which is shown in many different ways. For Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) that right hon. and some it is a violent attack from Islamic groups, such as hon. Members who have taken part in the debate believe the looting and burning to the ground of a Pentecostal that civil and religious liberties are not for some but for church in Algeria. There are kidnappings of Christians all, and the debate has focused on that. As he explained, for ransom in Egypt, public lashings for those practising the night of persecution grows even darker in some Christianity in Saudi Arabia, and crucifixions in Iraq—we parts of the world, even when we intervened in Iraq and could go on, as that is only the tip of the iceberg of what Afghanistan and sent our soldiers to fight for liberty we know. Sadly, the persecution of Christians is not and freedom. debated often on the Floor of the House. I agree with the hon. Member for South Down In several countries where Christians are a minority, (Ms Ritchie) that the debate has been reflective and persecutions are perpetrated at both state and community informative—that is certainly an appropriate description. level. Indeed, through the intensity of that persecution, The hon. Members for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) the existence of a small Christian community is often and for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) made threatened, with many feeling they have no choice but thoughtful contributions. I appreciate that time was to flee to safety somewhere else. For many, however, unfortunately too limited for them to expand their there is nowhere they can safely go—they cannot afford remarks, but I know they take a keen interest in this to go anywhere else. issue and have contributed to other debates. When the Minister winds up, we must recognise that The hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) had the persecution of Christians is going on in countries just a few moments to contribute, but I believe this that receive financial aid from many Christian taxpayers House owes her a great debt of gratitude because she in the United Kingdom. When we think of £1.325 billion tirelessly raises this issue again and again. Her to Ethiopia between 2010 and 2015, £1.392 billion to encouragement and depth of knowledge is worthy of Pakistan for that period, £1 billion to Bangladesh, commendation and recognition, and I am happy to give £1 billion to Nigeria, £710 million to Afghanistan, that on the Floor of the House on behalf of my right and £643 million to Tanzania, we must realise that hon. and hon. Friends. that is taxpayers’ money, yet there is persecution of Christians. Stephen Pound: Briefly, before we move on, may I We should always remember that persecution does share with the hon. Gentleman a message I have just not only happen somewhere else, because charity starts received from Stormont from my colleague the hon. at home. Many Christians in the United Kingdom feel Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis), shadow Secretary isolated at this time, and for many in this House, if they 883 Persecution of Christians3 DECEMBER 2013 Persecution of Christians 884 openly profess their faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord Syria and Pakistan, and Rohingya Muslims in Burma. and Saviour, they witness the rolling of eyes, or disbelief None of that persecution is acceptable and none of it that somehow today we really believe the Bible is the should be tolerated. word of God, and we are scorned and ridiculed for that. As a believer, I unashamedly say that I do believe that Alistair Burt: Will my hon. Friend give way? the Bible is God’s precious word. I am guided in my public life, as well as in my private life, by the word of Mark Simmonds: If my right hon. Friend will forgive God. In our country, there are many sad instances of me, I will not give way as I want to answer the specific persecution of street preachers—even carol singers are points raised in the debate. under attack because of certain legislation that is, or The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) has been, proposed. rightly raised the Commonwealth Heads of Government I thank the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland meeting. I can tell him that freedom of religion and for her attendance. She has been here for a large part of belief was discussed by the Heads of Government, who the debate. agreed to strengthen the communiqué’s language on In conclusion, what should we do? We have to speak this subject, and we warmly welcomed that. The Foreign up, because by so doing we also speak for many of the Secretary announced last week the setting up of an weak, disadvantaged and defenceless people of the advisory group of experts on freedom of religion and world. Thank God our faith will prevail. The Lord belief. That will help us increasingly to factor in a Jesus said: faith-based perspective to our foreign policy. “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West against it.” (Tom Greatrex) rightly raised the challenges faced by While we are being persecuted, remember that the blood Christians in Malaysia. I can inform him that the high of the martyr is the seed of the Church. commission in Kuala Lumpur raises the issue of respecting religious diversity with their Malaysian counterparts on 6.50 pm a regular basis, and last did so on 7 November. I want to make sure that Members across the House Mark Simmonds: With permission and with the leave understand the Government’s position on the right to of the House, I wish to respond to this important and freedom of religion or belief. We interpret freedom of significant debate. I reiterate that it is to the huge credit religion or belief according to the definition set out in of the Democratic Unionist party that it has raised article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights, these important issues. which includes the right to practise the religion in Correctly, this has been an impassioned debate outlining public or private, and to share it with others. It also many of the horrors and persecutions suffered by Christians includes the right to change one’s religion and to have around the world. The situations in numerous countries no religion at all. have been raised, and the simple fact is that Christians I fully agree with the hon. Member for Strangford are persecuted more than any other faith group in the that protection of the right to freedom of religion or world. The nature of this persecution can take many belief should be a priority for all countries. We, along different forms and the perpetrators vary from Governments with EU partners, sponsor a resolution at the UN twice to militant groups to even a person’s own family. Faith every year on this subject. We have also agreed guidelines is often used as a proxy for other divisions, as religious on the promotion of the right to freedom of religion or fault lines are exploited. belief with EU partners. These guidelines are already Let me be absolutely clear to the House: the Government helping the embassies of all EU member states to are not silent and the Government are not quiet. When promote and protect the freedom of religion or belief in Christians are persecuted, we, as Government Ministers, a wide range of target countries. speak out clearly and forcefully. I cannot stress enough A number of hon. Members raised the important how seriously the Foreign and Commonwealth Office issue of Syria. We are committed to speaking up on takes this issue, as part of our commitment to freedom behalf of all those who are targeted, and we have made of religion around the world. Promoting respect for it clear that those responsible for these violations should human rights is at the very heart of the Government’s be held to account—and the International Criminal foreign policy. Where Christians or any religious believers Court may have a role to play. I confirm that there are are victims of persecution, we will condemn the violence Christians among the members of the Syrian National and ask the relevant authorities to ensure that justice is Coalition who will be invited to the Geneva II talks. served. There can be and should be no impunity for those who persecute individuals on the basis of religion Hon. Members have raised the issue of Nigeria, with or belief. particular reference to Boko Haram. By far the highest numbers killed by Boko Haram are Muslims, not Christians, A particular spotlight has been shone on the situation and this includes senior Muslim clerics and anyone who for Christians in the Middle East. That point was made stands up against its extremist ideology.We have consistently powerfully in the wonderful speech by my hon. Friend encouraged, and will continue to do so, the Government the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry). We have of Nigeria to protect all their citizens and to promote a heard of the exodus of Christians from the region, and dialogue between communities at different levels, as of communities that have co-existed for centuries now indeed I saw and participated in myself in Kaduna, turning on minorities and treating Christians as outsiders. earlier this year. It is important to distinguish between That is simply unacceptable. the age-old competition for land and resources between Persecution is not limited to the middle east, and, farmers and nomadic herders and the terrorism occurring where Christians are attacked, it is rarely just Christians in the north-east. Nigeria is a traditionally tolerant who are suffering—whether they be Shi’a Muslims in country. 885 Persecution of Christians 3 DECEMBER 2013 886

[Mark Simmonds] That this House is concerned that the persecution of Christians is increasing in the 21st Century; notes that there are reports that The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) one Christian is killed every 11 minutes somewhere on earth for raised the issue of the worrying events happening in the their faith; further notes that Christianity is the most persecuted religion globally; bears in mind that the right to freedom of Central African Republic. Appalling human rights abuses thought, conscience and religion is a human right stated in the are going on there. The Department for International Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and calls on the Government Development recently announced an increase from to do more both in its foreign policy and through its aid work to £5 million to £15 million for humanitarian assistance. defend and support people of Christian faith. Both French and African troops are going to be deployed, which I hope will be authorised by a United Nations Business without Debate resolution later this week. A number of hon. Members raised the appalling DELEGATED LEGISLATION attacks on Coptic Christians in Egypt. Let me reiterate Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the point made by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Order No. 118(6)), Secretary in his statement to Parliament of 3 September when he spoke about the deplorable burning of churches INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT and the attacks on Coptic Christians. We were outraged That the draft Caribbean Development Bank (Eighth by the attack of 20 October, when four Coptic Christians Replenishment of the Unified Special Development Fund) Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 1 November, be approved.— were killed. The Foreign Secretary has publicly condemned (Claire Perry.) all acts of violence. We recently encouraged the committee Question agreed to. tasked with drafting Egypt’s new constitution to ensure stronger protection in that country. EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS A number of hon. Members raised the work of the Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing all-party group on international religious freedom and Order No. 119(11)), beliefs, which is chaired by Baroness Berridge. We very much welcome its work and encourage all faiths to SYRIA:ACOMPREHENSIVE EU APPROACH work together, regardless of the specific religion involved That this House takes note of European Union Document in incidents. I also pay tribute to the work of the No. 11482/13, a Joint Commission and High Representative Christian Church over the centuries to fight for religious Communication: Towards a comprehensive EU approach to the freedom for all faiths, not just for Christians. Syrian crisis; and agrees with the Government that in responding to the Syrian crisis, the EU should focus its efforts on those areas My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury asked what in which it has expertise, complementing broader national and additional work the Foreign and Commonwealth Office international efforts.—(Claire Perry.) will do to raise the issue of the persecution of Christians. Question agreed to. Let me reiterate that the persecution of Christians was the precise topic of a speech by my noble Friend Baroness PETITIONS Warsi in Washington last month. This clearly demonstrates that the FCO recognises and prioritises this matter not Rural Fair Share Campaign just as a problem, but as an issue on which we must 7pm work to find solutions. Other ministerial colleagues and I raise the issue of the persecution of Christians wherever Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I have two and whenever it occurs, as do our ambassadors and petitions. The first is a petition of 386 residents of my high commissioners around the world, expressing our constituency on the Rural Fair Share campaign. deep and heartfelt concern. The petition states: A number of other hon. Members raised the important The Petition of residents of the UK, issue of UK taxpayers’ money going to countries where Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Local Government Finance Settlement is unfair to rural communities; notes that the the persecution of Christians takes place. It needs to be Rural Penalty sees urban areas receive 50% more support per understood that the majority of UK development assistance head than rural areas despite higher costs in rural service delivery; does not go via Governments, but where it does go and opposes the planned freezing of this inequity in the 2013–14 through budgetary support, we make it absolutely clear settlement for six years until 2020. that the host Government must share the UK’s commitment The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons to respecting the full range of human rights, including urges the Government to reduce the Rural Penalty in staged steps combating religious intolerance and tackling persecution by at least 10% by 2020. and discrimination. And the Petitioners remain, etc. My hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and [P001303] Rainham (Rehman Chishti) made a very powerful speech. Cardiac Rehabilitation Services at Danetre Hospital I want to confirm to him that my noble Friend Baroness (Daventry) Warsi regularly raises the issue of the blasphemy laws with Ministers and the Government in Pakistan. 7.1 pm I fully agree that Christian belief is a powerful force Chris Heaton-Harris: My second petition is a very motivating millions of people to do good, with Christian important one—not that the last one was not. This institutions occupying a valuable position in society. We petition is about cardiac rehabilitation services at Danetre recognise the positive role Christians play across the hospital in my constituency. They were removed a while world. ago, and a fantastic campaigner, Viv Crouch, has been campaigning ever since to get them back. She and a Question put and agreed to. number of other people have raised a petition signed by Resolved, over 1,200 people from across Daventry. 887 Business without Debate 3 DECEMBER 2013 888

The petition states: Newry HMRC Centre The Petition of residents of the UK, Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Declares that the Petitioners believe cardiac rehabilitation do now adjourn.—(Claire Perry.) should be introduced in Danetre Hospital to help local people recovering from heart problems. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to reintroduce this service as soon as 7.5 pm possible. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I would And the Petitioners remain, etc. like to thank the Minister for coming here to respond to [P001305] the debate this evening. HMRC centres throughout the Proposed Bund Construction on Oregon Close, UK, including in Newry, have been subject to turbulent Kingswinford, Dudley change since 2006, and staff have grown accustomed to their jobs being under threat. However, I was alarmed to hear that the Treasury is now offering voluntary exits 7.3 pm and effectively seems to have decided to close down Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): It is my pleasure HMRC centres across Northern Ireland—in Newry, to present this petition on behalf of the residents of Enniskillen and Derry. Oregon close in Kingswinford in my constituency. It The Newry centre currently employs 134 staff, many relates to matters regarding the quarry that is operated of whom live in my constituency, and I know that this by WCL Quarries and is ultimately owned by Hinton news came as a shock to them and their families. It Perry & Davenhill, a major company in my constituency. represents a real blow to working people and families The petition states: across Northern Ireland, and the removal of these jobs The Petition of residents of Dudley South, will be a severe drain on the local economy. These Declares that a planning application on Oregon Close (P13/1596) people are also vastly experienced, and as it appears has been presented to Dudley Metropolitan Council; further that they are not being offered re-deployment, this will be a the Petitioners believe that the construction of bunds to a height great loss of expertise. of six metres on top of an existing four metre wall has the potential to structurally damage the surrounding houses; further Despite being hit hard by the financial crisis since that the Petitioners believe that bringing forward the construction 2008, Newry and the surrounding area has great economic to 2014 provides insufficient time to arrange a professional structural potential to harness north-south business development. survey of the retaining wall and affected houses and to put Significant steps taken under the “Newry Vision” movement monitoring equipment in place; further that the Petitioners programme have bolstered the private sector, and object to the noise and toxic fumes which will be endured for consideration has been given to where public-private twelve months; and further that the Petitioners believe that their partnerships can be effective. The Newry area, given its quality of life and health will be detrimentally affected if the strategic location on the Belfast-Dublin corridor, has proposal in this planning application is accepted. been identified as a vital economic hub within the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Northern Ireland regional development strategy. As has urges the Government to encourage Dudley Metropolitan Council to reject the planning application on Oregon Close. been highlighted by economists and spatial geographers such as Professor John Driscoll, the area could be the And the Petitioners remain, etc. fulcrum for key north-south economic development. [P001304] However, it is critical for the balance and sustainability of the local economy that these public sector jobs be maintained. Indeed, with 12 public sector jobs per 100 of the working-age population, Newry is under- represented in public sector jobs in Northern Ireland, and removing them would put severe pressure on the whole local economy, including the private sector. Only last week, I was told that staff numbers in the administration sector of the Public Prosecution Service in Newry will be reduced, and that Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency offices could be closed. That is still open for discussion, and hopefully the Minister with responsibility for transport here could reverse that decision.

Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for allowing me to intervene. She will know that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee recently looked into the appalling crime of fuel laundering in Northern Ireland. I and the other members of the Committee were indebted to the HMRC for its work throughout Northern Ireland, but particularly in the Newry area. One thing we were very concerned about was the evidence given to us about the cost to Newry and Mourne district council of cleaning up the rubbish left behind by these criminal gangs. We need more HMRC staff in Newry, not fewer. 889 Newry HMRC Centre3 DECEMBER 2013 Newry HMRC Centre 890

Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. those who lack access to the internet or find it difficult I sit on a cross-border committee organised by Newry to use modern technology. This could leave many people and Mourne district council. A representative from isolated from access to vital services, particularly at a HMRC in Newry attends its meetings and deals with time of widespread changes to the tax and benefits illegal fuel laundering. The last meeting was some six system. weeks ago, and good progress has been made on that, South Down and the region supported by the Newry on foot of the report of the Northern Ireland Affairs HMRC centre are predominantly rural areas and as Committee, and the good work being carried out by such they face all the problems associated with that, HMRC in dealing with illegal fuel laundering. including limited broadband access and people living in Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): As my hon. Friend remote and isolated locations. Those people cannot knows, Foyle House in Derry, in my constituency, is simply be expected to adopt online and phone services, also affected by the proposals. She is rightly emphasising especially when complex personal tax issues are under the fact that jobs are at stake, but does she agree that the discussion. Recent immigrants, the poor, the elderly and quality of services is also at stake? When other taxation the disabled will all be made more vulnerable by the services have moved out of Northern Ireland, not least removal of these services. Chas Roy-Chowdhury, head those involving the administration of tax credits, many of taxation at the Association of Chartered Certified people—particularly cross-border workers—have been Accountants, has warned that this action is being carried left with very poor services and chronic problems. out too rapidly and without due consideration. The Treasury has claimed, through statements to the Ms Ritchie: I thank my hon. Friend for his useful media and in written answers here, that it is not closing intervention. I agree wholeheartedly that there is a need down these centres, but the voluntary exits that are for this service, particularly in regard to cross-border being offered surely amount to a de facto closure. These working, as there is a considerable interchange of population exit offers are a clear statement of intent, and the between the north and the south. In his case, it is closure of the sites, which the Treasury has seemingly between Derry and Donegal; in my case, it is between made inevitable, will almost certainly increase the pressure Newry and Dundalk. In my area, there is a memorandum on staff to accept the terms on offer. I am deeply of understanding between both councils, north and concerned about this tactic of offering exit packages south, to deal with economic issues in order to pump-prime before proper, full consultations and impact assessments the local economy. have been carried out on the closures. It is deeply cynical to hang this uncertainty over the heads of the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the hon. staff at the same time as offering a redundancy package. Lady feel that the closure of the office with the loss of 134 jobs will affect the ability of the Treasury to bring in I would therefore like the Minister to clarify the the revenue that this country needs? terms on which these exits are being carried out. I would also like clarification on the future of the Newry Ms Ritchie: The face-to-face services provided by centre, which dealt with 500,000 queries and cases over HMRC in Newry are vital to my constituency, because the past year. Such clarification will include a time scale of the lack of access to broadband and the need to deal for the future strategy for staffing and operations in on a cross-border basis with matters such as tax avoidance. Northern Ireland. The Minister needs to address why Newry’s strategic location means that it is vital to have there has been no equality impact assessment, as required those services there. under section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and The programme of voluntary exits for staff cannot be as produced for the initial proposal in 1998. Why has euphemistically explained away by the normal rhetoric there been no consultation with staff, unions or, apparently, of “modernisation and streamlining”. It represents the the Northern Ireland Executive? Did the First Minister wholesale removal of vital face-to-face and personal and Deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland make tax services, and a distinct refashioning of the link any representations as far back as March or April, between people and revenue collection. My hon. Friend when there were some intimations that this might happen? the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) has just made Have they received a response to such representations? that point as well. Time and again it has been reported In similar circumstances in the past, the Treasury has that consumers and businesses prefer face-to-face sought ministerial approval from the Northern Ireland transactions when dealing with tax and revenue issues. Executive, as well as a full equality impact assessment The new strategy will have severe limitations, particularly and stakeholder consultation. This new approach of when complex matters are being discussed. offering voluntary exits before this process has begun is The decision will drastically alter the link between the deeply worrying, particularly given the devastating impact community and a vital public service. That point has this closure could have on the local community and been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle, as economy. There are very real equality issues relating to well as by the hon. Members for North Down (Lady the closure of this centre, as it is mostly the lower paid, Hermon) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon). That is disabled and part-time staff and women who will be already a problem, and I know that many local people most vulnerable and will find it the hardest to get new and businesses already struggle to access services from work; a higher proportion of women will be affected. I HMRC. People can feel disconnected from the system, also have to point out that the three centres being closed especially in Northern Ireland, and that will be further are all in predominantly nationalist constituencies, which exacerbated by the changes. could bring its own equality implications. It might seem more efficient for the Treasury to Before following through with these measures in implement these changes, but it will almost certainly Northern Ireland, I would also be grateful if the Minister not be more efficient for those people forced to rely on could include more information on the pilot study telephone lines, with all the long delays involved, or for carried out in the north of England on the introduction 891 Newry HMRC Centre3 DECEMBER 2013 Newry HMRC Centre 892 of the reformed service. Critical questions are outstanding The answer to the written parliamentary question on the capacity of non-face-to-face and reduced personal that the hon. Lady tabled last week highlighted the fact tax services to deal with the range of queries that these that HMRC has not announced the closure of the office centres deal with daily. How long will people have to in Newry. However, on 20 November, HMRC invited wait on hold to have their inquiry heard? How many around 1,500 people in 21 locations to apply for a cases took more than one call to resolve? How many voluntary exit. That included more than 130 people in required a subsequent face-to-face meeting? What was Custom House in Newry. The invitation gives people the experience of people and businesses using the new the option to leave HMRC if that fits with their life system, and how much will it cost them? There is a clear choices, but HMRC is not making redundancies at this onus on the Treasury to provide this information before stage. coming to any decision on removing the existing centres. Before I go into detail on the voluntary exits and Instead we get the impression of a Department that has what it means for staff in Newry and other offices, it is made its decision and will find the appropriate reasons important to explain the context. HMRC is reshaping from there. itself to become a more modern, flexible and cost-effective More broadly, we know that tax evasion and avoidance organisation that can deliver better, more personalised cost the public purse an astronomical amount every services for customers at the same time as increasing tax year, and that is surely only likely to rise with the revenues from compliance. Like other Departments, it closure of local compliance centres. With tax evasion has to deliver that within ever-tighter fiscal constraints. and avoidance costing our economy more than £100 billion HMRC has been steadily reducing in size since it was a year, HMRC should be expanding rather than cutting formed in 2005. Over the past eight years, it has cut its offices and staff. Surely the Treasury should be looking staff from around 97,000 full-time equivalent people to at how local tax centres can be adequately resourced just under 63,000 FTEs at the end of October 2013. It and given the scope to take on some of these functions. has reduced its estate by more than 200 offices, and is Indeed, initially we were led to believe the Newry centre now more concentrated in urban centres. It has done would be retained and would assume further responsibility that while improving service and increasing yield. Since for some cross-border issues, including compliance and HMRC was created, it has more than doubled its tax co-operation with Irish authorities—where better to compliance yield and delivered major projects, including locate a cross-border taxation co-operation centre than Real Time Information. During 2012-13, it brought Newry in the context of the development of north-south pay-as-you-earn up to date for the first time, answered business links? I am disappointed that that no longer 75.2% of the calls made to its contact centres—hitting seems to be the case. I would like the Minster to explain 90% during the last six months of the year—and, for what consideration he has given to this. Will he take a the first time since HMRC was formed, cleared more more constructive approach? than 80% of customer post within 15 days. This Government never tire of telling us of their HMRC has committed to reducing its work force desire to rebuild and rebalance the economy in Northern from 63,000 FTEs today to 54,000 by the end of 2014-15 Ireland. The message sent out by the decision to remove and then to 52,000 by the end of 2015-16. Although jobs from the Newry HMRC centre sharply contradicts retirements, resignations and people reducing their working that, as there are simply not jobs available for these hours will deliver some of those work force reductions, people to move into. Instead, this decision will remove they will not be sufficient if HMRC is to achieve its money from the local economy, hitting not just those work force target. HMRC has always made it clear to its families directly involved, but businesses across the staff that it was likely that voluntary exits would be whole area. I ask the Minister, who has been generous needed and that is what it announced last month. with his time on previous occasions, to hold further Targeted groups of staff will be asked to consider meetings with local politicians, the Public and Commercial whether a voluntary exit is right for them. People in Services Union and representatives in Newry to look at those groups might be in roles that are needed less and a constructive solution. I am sure that my hon. Friend less because of new ways of working, including increased the Member for Foyle would join us at such a meeting automation and the fact that some administrative work to discuss Derry. There is an urgent need for the Treasury has dried up. Others are in locations where, according to review this decision and make a full assessment of to all the indications, one, some or all lines of business the impact of it on the local economy and community. in HMRC are unlikely to be based in the medium to I am absolutely certain that a viable, economically long term. sound centre can be retained that protects local jobs, Although the specifics of the announcement will, I perhaps through a centre that also considers aspects appreciate, come as a shock or surprise to many people, related to cross-border tax issues and wider anti tax the reality is that HMRC will continue to contract its avoidance and evasion measures. What is absolutely not work force. That has long been known by staff and acceptable is the degree of uncertainty that has been many have been waiting to find out where that contraction created while staff are being offered exit deals. will take place. Indeed, the hon. Member for South Down acknowledged that there has been uncertainty in 7.20 pm Newry for some time. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David The background to the news is that in June 2011 Gauke): I congratulate the hon. Member for South HMRC announced that it would be located in 16 key Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing this debate this evening. centres until at least 2020. Those centres include Belfast. I welcome this opportunity to clarify what Her Majesty’s Newry was one of most of the other offices in which Revenue and Customs is doing in respect of the office in HMRC said that it would be located until at least 2015. Newry and to give the House as much information as As HMRC reduces in size, it will need to continue to possible. bring together its people in larger sites where they can 893 Newry HMRC Centre3 DECEMBER 2013 Newry HMRC Centre 894

[Mr David Gauke] not yet taken a decision to close Newry or any other office. Newry does not feature in HMRC’s long-term work more flexibly and to reduce its footprint to be plans, but as long as there are people in the office, more cost-effective. Smaller offices will not be viable as HMRC will not break its previous commitment that no overall numbers reduce and the skills pool in smaller occupied office will close before April 2015. HMRC local communities will not necessarily provide all the follows a tried and tested process in these circumstances. skills that HMRC needs when it needs them. HMRC If and when there is a proposal to close the office, has therefore started to identify locations that do not fit consultation will be undertaken with interested parties, business needs in the medium to long term. In seven of both within and outside the Department, and feedback the 21 locations where people have been invited to apply will be invited from staff, unions, hon. Members, other for voluntary exit, one or more lines of business intend elected local representatives, and the local community. to withdraw from the office in time. In the other 14 offices, Any representations will be considered fully before a all of the lines of business wish to withdraw. Newry is final decision is made. one of those offices. There is not at present a proposal to close those Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Is the offices, since HMRC is honouring the commitment it Minister not playing with words? I am listening to what made to staff in 2011 that they would stay open until at he is saying but, in reality, has a decision not already least 2015. However, HMRC’s executive committee took been made? the view that staff should know that there might not be a long-term future for those offices well in advance of Mr Gauke: I reiterate that HMRC will honour the any decision on office closures, so that they can think commitment made earlier in this Parliament that Newry about their options and start planning their futures. will be open at least until 2015. A final decision will be The voluntary exit scheme—I stress that it is entirely made only after consultation, as I have outlined. I do voluntary—gives those staff who want to leave HMRC not wish in any way to hide from the point—indeed, the opportunity to do so on favourable financial terms. HMRC has been very clear about this—that HMRC Some people will welcome the opportunity to leave the does not see Newry having a future in the long term. Department given that change and uncertainty in the The final decision as to when any closure would take air. The compensation provided by accepting a voluntary place will be made, as I have said, after consultation. exit will enable people to pursue other life choices if The choice for HMRC in the circumstances is to try to that is what they want to do. conceal that and leave things to the last minute or to try to be as open as possible, engage with staff and provide opportunities at an early stage for those who might Ms Ritchie: If the staff choose to stay and do not want to leave voluntarily with a severance package. take voluntary exit, what is the long-term future for them, for Newry and for the other 13 centres? Mark Durkan: In the decisions that HMRC is making about its future pattern of business, has any account Mr Gauke: Let me say a bit more and I shall answer been taken of the possible changes in the distribution of the hon. Lady’s question directly. Those who wish to taxation? The Government have recently indicated that take up the exit package will need to apply by 18 December there are shifts in relation to Wales, and who knows and decide on a formal offer by 31 January. Their last what is going to happen in Scotland? If other choices day of service will be 30 April. As she says, other people are being made on some taxation moving to a more will not want to leave and there is no compulsion on devolution-weighted basis, surely having a revenue-collecting them to apply for a voluntary exit if they wish to stay, infrastructure available in a devolved area is hugely but they have been given notice of the likely longer term important? picture for their offices and will ultimately need to consider their future after 2015. HMRC will not be closing Newry or any of the offices where it invited Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting people to consider applying for a voluntary exit before point. HMRC is going in the direction of concentration April 2015, in line with the picture it gave in 2012 about on larger urban offices that have the flexibility to operate. how long it would be based in current locations. Included in those larger urban offices is Belfast. He tempts me to speculate on future policy matters in the I do not underestimate the fact that for many people devolution of tax, but I want to make it clear that this is this news was a shock and was unwelcome, but I believe not a proposal to withdraw from Northern Ireland. that HMRC was right to provide its staff with an honest This is a proposal that applies across the United Kingdom, assessment about the future of their offices or, in some with a move to larger urban centres. That applies in cases, their roles, and to offer them the opportunity to Northern Ireland, as well as elsewhere. consider applying for a voluntary exit. May I deal quickly with the issue of the equality HMRC needs to do further work to be able to say if impact assessment, which is an important matter raised and when it sees itself moving away from Newry and by the hon. Member for South Down? The equality the 13 other locations where all lines of business will be position has been considered, and it has been concluded reducing. A future decision to close the office will need that there is unlikely to be a disproportionate impact on to be accompanied by a proper consultation process any of the protected equality groups as a result of the and equality impacts, involving the employees themselves, voluntary exit schemes. Consequently, completion of their trade unions, right hon. and hon. Members and an equality impact assessment is unnecessary. A people other local interests. impact assessment has been completed, however, and Let me pick up on a couple of the questions asked by audiences likely to be affected have been identified and the hon. Lady. She asked why there has not been appropriate mitigating action will be taken to eliminate consultation at this point and I stress that HMRC has those impacts. 895 Newry HMRC Centre3 DECEMBER 2013 Newry HMRC Centre 896

If HMRC does decide to close any offices in future it remarks as I had wanted to. This issue is very much will identify all redeployment options for affected staff. focused on the inquiry centre, which is only a small part However, because its estate and work force will become of what is currently undertaken in Newry. With regard smaller, there will clearly be less chance of redeployment to the inquiry centre pilot in the north-east of England, in HMRC, particularly in areas that are outside a HMRC will decide in January 2014 whether to roll out reasonable daily commute. that service and move away from inquiry centres and face-to-face services and towards a telephone service Ms Ritchie rose— with additional enhanced support for vulnerable people. HMRC remains committed to providing face-to-face Mr Gauke: I am conscious that I have two minutes support for those who need it in future, including in left, but I shall give way one last time. Newry and across Northern Ireland. If we decide to roll out the new service next year, HMRC believes that it Ms Ritchie: I thank the Minister for his generosity; I will provide that face-to-face support in a way that is hope that that will be extended to HMRC in Newry. more flexible and accessible to customers. May I also ask him to provide us with some information Time is constrained, so I will conclude by saying— about the pilot study in the north-east of England and its outcomes? 7.35 pm Mr Gauke: I will answer the hon. Lady’s question, House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order although I suspect that I will be unable to conclude my No. 9(7)).

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immediately available or politically desirable. That bodes Westminster Hall well for the greater utility of the ship—if it is built with the flexibility to modularise for the task. Tuesday 3 December 2013 Let me turn now to the changing threats and challenges that we may face. I draw Members’ attention to the latest book by respected author, strategist and counter- [MR JIM HOOD in the Chair] insurgency expert David Kilcullen, in which he speaks of Royal Navy Ships “the dangers of marginalised slums and complex security threats Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting of the world’s coastal cities, where almost 75% of the world’s be now adjourned.—(Mark Lancaster.) population will be living by midcentury.” He predicts 9.30 am “a future of feral cities, urban systems under stress, and increasing overlaps between crime and war, internal and external threats, Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): It is a and the real and virtual worlds.” pleasure to work under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I am delighted to have secured a debate on future ships Of course, not everyone will agree with his rather grim for the Royal Navy. That may seem an odd subject, predictions, but it cannot be denied that an increasingly considering that the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers will interdependent world will be characterised by intense not be operational until 2020 and that the Type 26 globalisation and competition, favouring many people, global combat ship, for which advance plans are in but alienating others. place, is not expected to enter service until June 2022. With 80% of the world’s population living within The development times for such vessels are long, and 100 miles of the sea and most human maritime activity, although the plans to replace the Invincible-class carriers such as shipping, fishing and hydrocarbon exploration, with the QE-class carriers were made in 1997—16 years taking place 100 miles out to sea, most of the world’s ago—and the green light to replace the Type 23s with economic activity will be conducted in a narrow strip of the global combat ship was given 15 years ago, the first land and sea—the so-called littoral. It is there that we sheet of metal has yet to be cut. If we combine that will find the poorly governed or the ungoverned space lengthy development period with, first, Britain’s ever- that leads to future conflicts—whether prompted by evolving place and role in the world; secondly, the natural or man-made disasters—and that provides the changing threats and challenges that we face away from breeding grounds for trouble. That, in turn, will threaten traditional deep-blue-water engagements; and, finally, Britain’s interests. That is where future tensions and the seismic changes in war-fighting technology, it makes conflict will occur, as the world shifts towards a multipolar perfect sense to ask what role the Royal Navy should construct. Britain must adapt to that new landscape if it play in the future and how it should be equipped to is to continue to play an active and engaged role in perform that role. shaping global change. That means developing more Let me take each of those points in turn. The previous flexible, mobile and defendable military capabilities, strategic defence and security review made it clear that, and the Royal Navy has a key role to play in that. as a maritime nation, we will retain significant global Given the platforms that are about to come online, it interests, with our prosperity, stability and security largely could be argued that almost all the kinetic operations dependent on access to the sea and the maintenance of that we have carried out recently could have been achieved uninterrupted free trade. Having served in the armed from the relative safety of the sea. By way of illustration, forces, I would be the first to support a large permanent I should point out that 35% of US air operations over military capability, but history shows that that is a Afghanistan were conducted from carriers based in the luxury that the nation cannot always afford. For hundreds Indian ocean, while 40% of all allied sorties in the Libya of years, the size of our armed forces has concertinaed, campaign came from a single carrier—the Charles de and this decade will be no different. With defence Gaulle—before it had to retire for maintenance. spending falling from about 4% of GDP in the cold war to 2% today, it is right that we consider what the default That is a powerful argument, if ever there was one, size of our armed forces should be to allow us to meet for commissioning both QE- class carriers, not just one. our national and international security obligations and I will not comment too much on those carriers, because to respond, with or without our allies, to sizeable short-term I made my views clear in my Royal United Services commitments. Institute report, but they will be game changing for British military capability. Two carriers would allow us Although we cannot predict the future, we can say to develop not only carrier strike, but a permanent with some certainty that our forces will be deployed. expeditionary capability, unlike the use of Apaches on Thanks to modern, 24-hour news coverage, which allows Ocean, which was a temporary move. the nation to take a more proactive and vocal interest in the type of interventionist engagements that we participate That leads me to the advances in war-fighting technology. in—as reflected in the recent vote on punitive intervention The current revolution in technology is changing the in Syria—and to the fact that there is no appetite for conduct of warfare—arguably, to a far greater extent repeating the intervention challenges of Iraq and than the arrival of the longbow at Agincourt, the Gatling Afghanistan, we are likely to be more selective about gun in the US civil war or the tank at the battle of the engagements that our forces are committed to. Cambrai. Such so-called force multipliers give the user Future operations are likely to be multinational, light- greater war-fighting effect at an ever greater distance footprint, manageable and easy to extract—essentially, from the target. Each new development moves the low-risk entanglements—especially when mass is not conduct of war into a new chapter. 189WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 190WH

[Mr Tobias Ellwood] the versatility of a vessel, from the high-end to the soft power influence, giving the ship vastly increased The same applies in the maritime environment. The expeditionary capability. We are now seeing unmanned development and application of new technology—in aerial systems, or drones, to use common language: the essence, tactics—over hundreds of years, and, possibly, ScanEagle, the Fire Scout and Boeing’s Hummingbird. a local rule that allowed the spoils of war to be shared They will be the norm in the skies; they will be a by the crew, allowed the Royal Navy to dominate the permanent part of war. high seas for a long time, charged by Parliament with I will not go into the details about selected precision protecting and growing British trade routes and interests. effects at range, but I would encourage increased synergies We have seen the development of full-rigged ships; in the complex weapons systems employed by all three cannons, which replaced the need to board enemy ships; services. Is there any reason why Storm Shadow cannot and the dreadnoughts, which had fewer but larger guns. be fired from a ship or, indeed, Brimstone from a In the last century, we saw the introduction of submarines, Wildcat? Another example is the Mistral MBDA surface- aircraft carriers and torpedoes. With the technology to-air launch system, which can be fired from helicopters coming online today, tomorrow’s battles—wherever they or ships and is also man-portable. That is a bit of kit are—will be fought not just by those in the theatre of that is versatile across all three services—a great example war, but, arguably, by a similar number of operators of one system being shared across the board. hundreds of miles from the battlefield, as unmanned warfare becomes the norm. I ask the Minister to recognise the convergence of interest in the battle space and the challenges of the The advanced systems coming online will transform continued siloed approach to procurement. I will cite the ability of all three services to collect intelligence; to one British example. The Fire Shadow, procured by the deter, or efficiently and clinically to defeat, the enemy at British Army, is a surface-launched precision loitering range; and to blur the lines of responsibility between missile with a range of around 100 km. It is transported the services. Operationally, we are only beginning to by trailer behind the back of a 4-tonne lorry. There is appreciate that, as reflected in the Libya campaign, no reason why such a cheap but accurate bit of kit where HMS Ocean, with a combat range of 8,000 miles, could not be modularised and placed, when required, carried Apache helicopters, with a combat range of on board a ship. Heaven forbid, it could even be run by 300 miles and armed with Hellfire missiles, which have a the Royal Artillery, although perhaps that is a step too range of 8 km. A stand-alone system was temporarily far. I believe that that is the mindset that should dominate placed on a platform, crossing service boundaries no future joint effect—modular systems covering all four less, to assist with an objective. The question I therefore phases of war that can be brought together. pose today is: could there be more of that ability to As the design for the Type 26 is consolidated, I offer modularise systems to meet the variety of tasks that we two options: option 1, do we need all 13 of them to be now require of our fleet? That means challenging the of such high specifications, or could, say, five of the Royal Navy’s desire for all its ships to be permanently eight have a more simplified design, where tailored capable of high-end warfare tasks. assets are assigned depending on the task at hand? On The Type 45 destroyer, for example, is a formidable option 2, if we commissioned just eight Type 26s, we ship, arguably the top of its class in defending the skies could use the additional funds to procure 10 cheaper, at sea and attacking other ships. It is, however, so larger modular ships with the deck and mission space high-spec that it cannot hit things on land, as traditionally for a minimum of four rotor systems to effectively that has been the domain of the RAF and, latterly, the conduct counter-piracy and counter-narcotics operations sub-surface fleet. It is built for high-end and deep-blue and defend home waters and to excel at upstream warfare, yet it spends 50% of its time conducting SDSR engagement, stabilisation and humanitarian tasks. taskings, such as counter-piracy and counter-drugs operations, and humanitarian operations, such as those Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) that we have recently seen in the Philippines. (Con): Does my hon. Friend recognise that it is important I have no doubt that we need high-end capability, but that we also have ships that will protect our aircraft that kinetic capability must be able to harness the full carriers? After all, the key thing that Nelson always spectrum of complex weapons technology and take on talked about was the need for frigates to support the future technologies by being more modular and systems- rest of the flagships and other such things. based. I therefore very much welcome the fact that the lines between the frigate and the destroyer are being Mr Ellwood: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I blurred in the design of the Type 26 global combat ship. commend him for his work in supporting what goes on I understand that it should be able to fire Tomahawk in Devonport. He is absolutely right that ships can and missiles from the Sylver vertical launch system A70 pods often do work individually, but they might be required and that there is space on board for two Wildcat helicopters to part of a larger flotilla or part of a taskforce, which and a number of rigid inflatables, as well as 40 Royal might include defending an aircraft carrier. Clearly, Marine commandos. One does not need to be an able with a limited number of platforms, that would be sea dog to recognise how much more versatile the harder to do, so an increased number of ships would design will be. It will certainly be more proficient in make the job easier. expeditionary warfare in the littoral environment. The types of role that the Type 26s could be engaged With the detailed ship design yet to be agreed, will in—upstream engagement, stabilisation and humanitarian the Minister consider increasing the size of the mission tasks—are the very things the SDSR is saying that we bay and deck to offer greater space beyond that for the should be doing more of, to promote Britain’s interests. planned two helicopters? I stress the point: whether I believe that such a design might even allow the provision manned or unmanned, the airborne capability extends for an Army company strength to be based on board. 191WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 192WH

Essentially, the ship could be a small moving location—a in defence matters. I congratulate him on securing the sea-based platform for operations to be conducted on debate and on outlining many thoughtful points, in land. In essence, it could act as a safe lily pad from particular relating to the littoral dimension, global strategic which land and sea-based assets could be safely deployed challenges, and interoperability and joint effect. without the need for any boots to be permanently on When considering future and current vessels, one the ground. Such a ship would then free the high-end must consider future and current maritime roles and ships for NATO, middle east, south Atlantic and nuclear taskings as an important starting point. I think that deterrent duties. Indeed, as my hon. Friend has just Members from across the House agree that naval forces said, they would be free to form part of a flotilla to are there to protect and patrol, to secure freedom of protect our aircraft carriers. movement, to enforce the boundaries of territorial waters, The Minister will be aware that the surface fleet is to control exclusive economic zones, and to secure the coping—but only just—with meeting its maritime environment—a significant consideration—renewables obligations with 19 destroyers and frigates, when 23 and critical infrastructure. That is particularly important ships is the defence strategic direction mandated standard. when one bears in mind what is likely to happen in the We are therefore taking an operational risk, and that is decades ahead with offshore wind, tidal and wave power managed, but option 2 would mitigate that risk. I urge and the development of super-grid systems, which are the Minister to gain some inspiration by looking at the likely to connect Iceland, the Faroe islands, Scotland, United States littoral combat ship, or the USS Freedom, Norway and the rest of Europe. Other dimensions a catamaran-style ship. The US is exploring exactly the include subsea infrastructure and, of course, the trafficking same more modular-based approach. The MOD wrote of drugs and people. I had a quick look at the Royal a joint concept report colourfully entitled “Future ‘Black Navy’s website before the debate and noted the five key Swan’ Class Sloop-of-War”, published in May last year, current areas of maritime security, which were counter- which talks exactly about the concept of a far cheaper piracy, counter-narcotics, counter-terrorism, keeping sea ship, with the money invested instead in the systems lanes open and “around the UK”. that go on it. I join the hon. Member for Bournemouth East not As we slowly approach the next SDSR, will the only in praising UK personnel and those of other Minister look at one further system that I believe would countries for their life-saving roles far from home— be game changing in the maritime environment? The including, most recently, in reacting to the humanitarian V-22 Osprey is a US multi-mission military tiltrotor catastrophe in the Philippines—but in acknowledging aircraft. It is an example of the large utility helicopters the importance of anti-piracy operations, and the of the future. It already operates on the US Wasp-class maintenance of free-trade routes through measures such carrier and can fly higher, faster and further, and it can as Operation Ocean Shield, which is ably commanded of course land on the deck of any frigate or destroyer. It from a Norwegian vessel, the Fridtjof Nansen. would be able refuel our F-35s. Such a system would have an enormous impact in the maritime environment. It is the fifth and surely most important task in the I believe that leasing six from the United States, similarly Royal Navy’s list that I want to address in the context of to what we did with the C-17s, would make logical future and current conventional naval vessels, capabilities sense. and tasking: maritime domain awareness, or MDA, to use the Navy’s terminology, which we should understand. In conclusion, it has been said time and again that, It is the effective understanding of anything associated no matter how advanced, ships can only be in one place with the maritime domain that could impact on security, at a time. We have impressive naval ships, but they safety, the economy or the environment. I want to remain very specific in their remit and too siloed in examine the issue in terms of recent developments close harnessing systems from all services—and, of course, to home. there are only 19 of them. Our ships are conducting a number international duties that they were not built to There is no better place to start than with an incident achieve. Looking ahead, Britain must excel at influencing that happened two years ago and has close connection activities in the littoral environment. I believe that that to my part of the world. The 65,000-tonne Admiral aim is best served by simpler and cheaper platforms, Kuznetsov anchored on the edge of UK waters off my where the sophistication and investment is focused on constituency. Other Russian ships that also sought shelter the modular systems on board, rather than on the ship. in the Moray firth included the anti-submarine warfare I hope that I speak for both sides of the House in ship Admiral Chabanenko, and the escort ship Yaroslav paying tribute to all those who serve in the Royal Navy Mudryy. The vessels did not warn domestic authorities and the Royal Marines. I offer my thoughts today in the that they were going to come so close to the coast, and spirit of ensuring that the House considers how we can are believed to have blamed bad weather for making best equip the Royal Navy in future in the lead-up to the that approach. It was the first time the Kuznetsov, or a next SDSR. vessel of its size, had deployed near UK waters, and it was the closest in 20 years that a Russian naval task Several hon. Members rose— group had deployed to Scotland or anywhere else in the UK. Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. I have four speakers on my list, plus the Front-Bench representatives, In previous years, Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft whom I intend to call at 10.40 am at the very latest. would have been loitering and would have been aware of the presence of a Russian deployment of that size. Of course, by 2011, the UK had no such aircraft; it is 9.49 am the only northern European military without them. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): I pay tribute to the Nevertheless, the Russians were there without any UK hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth East escort. At that stage, the Ministry of Defence was (Mr Ellwood), who has a long track record and experience relying on Scottish fishing vessels to report developments, 193WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 194WH

[Angus Robertson] Jazz, which involved land, air, and sea elements. Of the 6,000 participants in the exercise, the UK contributed including fly-tipping by the visitors. When the MOD precisely 52 personnel aboard a single mine hunter. It became aware of the Russians’ presence, a 30-year-old followed a large-scale exercise with maritime dimensions Type 42 frigate, the HMS York, was scrambled from in Norway, where the UK provided just one aircraft, Portsmouth, around 1,000 miles away. That distance, at which is more than has ever been provided to the 20 to 24 knots, takes more than 24 hours to travel. The NATO air policing commitments in Iceland. responsibility that the HMS York was fulfilling was that When it comes to our immediate maritime backyard, of fleet ready escort, which means being the deployable the UK is sadly posted missing too often and is not and capable vessel in UK waters ready to perform taking its responsibilities seriously. The absence of any emergency response tasks. The Kuznetsov case raises mention of the high north and Arctic in the most recent serious questions relating to current and future naval strategic defence and security review eloquently underlines vessels, and I would be grateful if the Minister could my point. address them. I know that he is well advised today, so I This is all especially relevant to Scotland when it am sure that he will have time to respond to my points. comes to current and future conventional vessels. Scotland Is the availability of a fleet ready escort a mandated is a maritime nation with a sea area five times larger task of the Royal Navy? Will the Minister confirm that, than its land area. Our coastline is over 11,000 km long, owing to the unavailability of vessels, the fleet ready and is longer than that of the People’s Republic of escort provision has been repeatedly gapped? Will he China and that of India. It constitutes 61% of the entire confirm that Ministers need to be informed by the UK coastline, and there are more than 800 islands. Royal Navy every time such a gap exists? Will he confirm Remarkably, however, there is not a single major, ocean- how many times over the last five years and for how going, UK conventional vessel based in Scotland to long the fleet ready escort has been gapped? Will he perform the key tasks that I have outlined; no frigates confirm that offshore patrol and mine countermeasures or offshore patrol vessels are based in Scotland. That vessels have been assigned for fleet ready escort duty can and will change after a yes vote in next year’s during gapped periods? When considering future ships, independence referendum in Scotland. Last week, the it is important to understand the current state of play Scottish Government published their White Paper, and what one might want to ensure does not happen in “Scotland’s Future”, which included plans for naval future. forces. I commend the White Paper to Members of all Staying with recent experience, in May 2007, Tornado parties, although I understand that the print run has F3 jets from RAF Leuchars in Fife were sent to intercept already been fully exhausted. two Russian aircraft spotted observing a Royal Navy exercise off northern Scotland. The jets were scrambled Oliver Colvile rose— after the foreign planes were detected by radar in the skies over the western isles. They were identified as Angus Robertson: If the hon. Gentleman wishes to Russian Bear Foxtrot planes, commonly seen by RAF place an order, I am sure a copy will be sent to him. pilots during the cold war. In this case, they were Of course I give way to him. intercepted and their return was escorted. Although there have been recent developments, I do Oliver Colvile: The hon. Gentleman is making an not want to explore in any detail in this forum the interesting case, but I point out that every proposal has interest shown by some countries in subsea infrastructure, been to ensure that the nuclear submarines remain up at but I am sure that both the Government and Opposition Faslane, which is useful for employment in that part of Front-Bench representatives will understand its importance Scotland. and the importance of its integrity. The examples that I have given underline that, with regard to the maritime Angus Robertson: This issue is close to my heart, and domain awareness of future and current vessels, there I would be happy to debate at great length the Scottish are important tasks close to the UK that must be public’s overwhelming opposition to nuclear weapons properly managed as a priority. being based in Scotland—something ignored, sadly, by I want to raise the question of tasking in our immediate the hon. Gentleman’s party and by the official Opposition wider maritime region and, in particular, the contribution in Westminster—but I am looking closely at the clock. towards joint allied responsibilities and training. NATO In the White Paper, however, which I commend to him, has, as part of its immediate reaction force, standing the plans for Faslane are for a vibrant conventional NATO maritime group 1, which primarily operates in naval base, and I am sure that most people would the eastern Atlantic. Similarly, standing NATO mine welcome that. I am delighted at the strong commitment countermeasures group 1 operates in northern waters. in the White Paper to maritime capabilities, including They are relevant for future and current naval vessel frigates, OPVs, patrol boats, auxiliary ships and, crucially, provision, as they are standing operational commitments newly procured maritime patrol aircraft. for allied nations, which provide destroyers, frigates and UK assets and liabilities are key, and they must be a mine countermeasure vessels. It is notable that the UK consideration for the Ministry of Defence, now and has not provided vessels to either of the groups for after a yes vote. Future vessels are very relevant. The several years. referendum will have a significant bearing on issues Similarly, on joint training, there is a real issue of relating to current and future vessels, but as yet we have properly committing current and, hopefully, future vessels. had no indication from the Government as to their Last month saw the largest NATO training exercise in preferences on defence assets. According to the most northern Europe in nearly a decade. Some 6,000 troops recent UK asset register, published in 2007, MOD assets from 20 allied and partner nations took part in Steadfast totalled more than £92 billion in value; on a population 195WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 196WH share basis, Scotland would be entitled to £7.7 billion in In Portsmouth, we do not have a sentimental view defence estate, equipment and vessels, or a financial of shipbuilding. We understand that it is something offset. With regard to future vessels, that is important, that has always fluctuated. My grandfather worked in because the UK Government have to date given no the dockyard for 45 years, including on the building of indication of the effect of a yes vote on their planning HMS Andromeda, which in the late 1960s—around assumptions or procurement plans. 1967—was the last Royal Navy ship to be built entirely The MOD has projected the need for £160 billion of in Portsmouth dockyard. There was a huge gap in spending on defence equipment and support over the shipbuilding at the dockyard after that, so we understand next 10 years; £13 billion of that spending is predicated that naval shipbuilding fluctuates. Furthermore, we always on continuing guaranteed Scottish taxpayer support. understood that the Queen Elizabeth class, which has With independence, Whitehall will need to work with been partly constructed in Portsmouth, would come to the Scottish Government on joint procurement even to an end eventually. It is a once-in-a-generation shipbuilding come close to those commitments. It is in the interests project, which created many jobs, but they were never of both Governments to work together. The Scottish going to last for ever, because of the scale of the Government’s White Paper included the following ship—only one 20th of it filled an enormous BAE commitment: hangar in Portsmouth dockyard. “This Scottish Government will take forward the procurement We used to feel a little better about the lack of of four new frigates, to be built on the Clyde, preferably through shipbuilding jobs when other jobs could be taken on the joint procurement with the rest of the UK.” maintenance and care of the fleet—the ship support That presents a good chance for massive procurement services. In recent years, however, that work has deteriorated gain, with the potential to extend the production run of as well. I remember as a little girl, we had the Queen’s the Type 26 frigate. Unless the Government were to jubilee fleet review of 1977—the Spithead review—which signal a further reduction in demand for frigate numbers, was a glorious spectacle. The ships went as far as the eye we could see more ships built rather than fewer, which is could see; we had a magnificent fleet. There was a fleet good news for the Clyde, good news for taxpayers review in 2005, to commemorate the battle of Trafalgar, across these islands, and good news for defence with and I also went to that. We managed to collect a bunch appropriate conventional capabilities. of different naval ships from various international navies. Her Majesty did inspect them, but she was probably still In conclusion, current and future naval vessels have home in time to watch “EastEnders”, because there was essential tasks at home and further afield. I have stressed nothing like the level of ships that we used to have. the importance of providing for necessary maritime territorial and regional defence, which is the core business That is important. I suppose the problem started of defence responsibility. Sadly, the UK Government with the construction of the Type 45, as my hon. Friend have taken their eye off the ball, so I look forward to a the Member for Bournemouth East pointed out. By sovereign Scotland taking those responsibilities seriously, anyone’s standards, it is a super-impressive piece of kit. and having the vessels and capabilities to do so. Naval folklore, which is particularly prevalent in my part of the world, has the ships taking part in an international military exercise in the Atlantic, but being 10.4 am asked to leave by other navies, because the Type 45 ships were so technically brilliant that they were beating Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): It is a pleasure everyone else before they could start. Apparently, they to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate have the radar shadow of a small fishing boat—they are my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth whizzy pieces of kit. The trouble with the Type 45 ships, East (Mr Ellwood) on securing this important debate however, is the cost—they were £1 billion a pop, which and on his compelling and persuasive opening speech is very pricey—and we got six of them and not 12. I am about the importance of our future fleet and its capabilities. not normally keen on quoting Joseph Stalin, but he said I apologise in advance that I cannot stay for the duration that quantity has a quality of its own. of the debate, which saddens me. I desperately wanted to take part, but I have a previous engagement that I As other Members have pointed out, our Navy is have to skip off to before the end, so I will be checking different from other wings of the armed forces: even Hansard avidly for the Minister’s answers to my questions. when we are not involved in any combat operations, the Navy is almost fully deployed protecting our trade My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East routes, on anti-piracy missions, deploying mine counter- made some compelling arguments about the technical measures, on fishery protection, in the Falklands, taking specifications of warships but I am not in a position to part in drugs operations in the Caribbean and on disaster do that. I want to talk about the human impact of and humanitarian relief, as we have seen recently. We decisions about future naval ships—their construction therefore need a quantity of ships. No matter how and where they are based—and the effect on local incredibly advanced our warships are, one has not yet communities. I should declare an interest: members of been invented with the ability to be in more than one my family work and have worked for generations in the place at the same time; that is the issue. business of building, maintaining and taking care of Royal Navy ships. After all, I was born in Portsmouth My first question to the Minister is, will he guarantee and represent Gosport, and people would be hard pressed that for the future global combat ship we will learn the to find a single person in that region who is not affected lessons of the Type 45, and have a ship that is flexible in some way by the Royal Navy or the care, maintenance and adaptable but affordable and exportable, so that we and construction of its ships. That is why the community have something that other countries want to buy? They was devastated by the recent news that shipbuilding in do not want the £1-billion-a-pop Type 45s because they Portsmouth is to cease. cannot afford them. 197WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 198WH

[Caroline Dinenage] debt of gratitude we owe to communities that have served the Royal Navy for hundreds of years. Those Another important matter is the basing of the future communities have built up around serving the defence fleet. It is no secret that people in Portsmouth were industry and we must ensure that we consider them in devastated by the news that the Type 23s will now be our plans. maintained and repaired in Plymouth. Where shipbuilding jobs are disappearing, the hope is that those jobs would be back-filled by ship support work and fleet maintenance. 10.14 am But there is a massive strategic gap: when work finishes Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) for the last Type 23 that will be repaired in Portsmouth, (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, the HMS Westminster, there will be a gap of around a Mr Hood. I congratulate my hon. and gallant Friend year before the first Type 45, HMS Daring, comes back the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) on for its first refit. We had hoped that some of the securing the debate. As he knows, he and I have been shipbuilding jobs would go into ship support, but we talking about the future of the Royal Navy for the past are not even 100% sure that all the ship support jobs three years, since I was elected. I am very aware of how will be in Portsmouth because of that year-long strategic important the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines are in gap. Will the Minister tell us what he is doing to my own constituency of Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport. mitigate that? The area cannot support any further job I will be arguing a strong case for the Royal Navy losses. during my contribution. I welcome the news that the QE class will be based in I should say, however, that the Government have had Portsmouth harbour and that the Government are going a difficult time. They have found themselves with to spend £100 million on improving the dockyard. That enormously problematic public finances and have therefore news is welcome, but Portsmouth is holding its breath had to make significant cuts in the delivery of public to see what happens to the second QE-class carrier. We services. I am sorry that they should find themselves in would like to know what the future holds for that ship, that position. We should most certainly control the because it would be fantastic if it could be used in some public expenditure envelope, but my view is that politics way rather than mothballed. is about delivering priorities as well, and I believe that We must not underestimate the importance of this our chief priority should be the defence of our country. issue to the local economy. Gosport, my constituency, is on the other side of Portsmouth harbour to Portsmouth This is an opportune time to have this debate, as the itself. Around 35% of the people who work in the Government will not only consider the next round of Portsmouth naval base and dockyard come from my the strategic defence and security review in a couple constituency: it is an area whose fortunes have been of years’ time but decide the amount of money that will completely wrapped up in those of the Navy and that be spent. As others have said, when the “Options for has supported the Royal Navy for hundreds and hundreds Change” review took place in the 1990s, about 4% or of years. Its economic fortunes have dived in line with 5% of the country’s GDP was being spent on defence; Navy cuts. We now have a victualling yard that no that is now down to around 2%. It is important that, longer supplies victuals to the Royal Navy, an oil fuel over the next few years, we look at the amount of depot that currently does not deliver oil, a submarine money that we are investing in defence. I hope that this escape tank with no submariners in it and a royal naval debate will send out that message. If the Minister would hospital—the last in the UK, which was shut down by be willing to work with me, I am very willing to work the previous Government—with no patients. Twenty-one with him on trying to argue our case to the Government per cent of Gosport’s surface area is still in the hands of and to the Treasury. the Defence Infrastructure Organisation, so the land is Representing Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport as I not even being released to commercial companies that do, I pay tribute to the Government for deciding that could do something with it. That is incredibly painful, they will continue to make sure that Plymouth has the because commercial companies would like to come in licence for refuelling and refitting of nuclear submarines. and do something to restore the fortunes of our great I recognise that the hon. Member for Moray (Angus town, and are being prevented from doing so not because Robertson) would prefer not to end up with nuclear the DIO is saying no, but because the DIO is simply not submarines in Scotland. Bluntly, we are quite willing to engaging in the conversation. Will the Minister help out end up with them in Plymouth if we possibly can. We with that situation? would welcome it. We recognise that it is the stake in the Gosport has less than half a job per working adult, ground, as far as Devonport is concerned. There has to and we do not have a culture of entrepreneurship, be work going into Devonport. About 38% of people because generation after generation has been employed working in the city depend on the public sector. Another by the Royal Navy. The Minister will say that the incredibly important point is that we have a low skills Ministry of Defence is not an employment agency or in base. The one thing that Devonport and Plymouth have the business of creating work, but I read a small statistic going for them is their global reputation for marine recently: Cardiff university did a poll on the national science and engineering research. The Royal Navy is a competitiveness of UK towns, and Gosport is second significant player in that sector, along with Plymouth from bottom of the English towns in that poll, having university, and I hope that we can continue to build dropped a staggering 94 places in the past three years. on that. That is how much the fortunes of our town are tied to The Navy is so important because we are an island—a the fortunes of the military and the Navy. maritime nation that depends upon using sea routes to It is of course important that decisions about future bring our food and imports into the country. The Ministry naval ships are made on the basis of affordability and of Defence should have two priorities: it should make practicality, but we also have to bear in mind the huge sure that we have not only a strong Royal Navy but a 199WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 200WH strong RAF as well. We must protect our sea routes and if we are to have seven frigates available for that purpose, air routes so that we can get bits of kit and imports into we would need 10, not eight. I think doctrine requires at the country. Could we imagine Christmas without oranges least seven to be available. Fourthly, how many of the or the kinds of fruits that we depend upon being able to new frigates would be necessary to escort a taskforce, import? Looking at the events of the first and second whether that is an amphibious or carrier taskforce? world wars, we can see how close we came to finding Finally, what consideration will be given to adoption of ourselves starved to death by our aggressors. the plug-and-play method of warship development that Aircraft carriers are important: they provide a launch my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East pad for aircraft to cover and dominate the air when we referred to, and the importance of getting hulls in the are landing troops—I hope, our Royal Marines—on water first and then building up capacity over the lifetime beaches. We should not forget that. However, this matter of the vessel? is not simply about having aircraft carriers. Nelson, In the time available, I hope to speak about strategy, who is the great hero of the Royal Navy and, I would numbers and design concept. You have drawn the short argue, Britain, said that we must ensure that we have straw, Mr Hood, in chairing this debate, because when I plenty of ships, including frigates and other vessels that made my maiden speech on defence in the Queen’s can protect our other activities on the sea. They are Speech debate in 1997, you spoke after me, and were utterly vital, and investment in them is important. kind enough to predict that the House would be hearing Plymouth has the licence for refitting and refurbishing a lot more from me on defence in the years to come. You our nuclear submarines, and it is key that we retain our were absolutely right, and I have been banging on about nuclear deterrent. I have been very supportive of ensuring it ever since, although I had not expected to be making that we have four submarines, so that we have a continuous the same sort of repetitious points and representations sea deterrent. I would like confirmation that the to a Conservative-led Government as I did to the Labour Conservative party will remain committed to that and Government during the more than six years in which I that it will not be subject to any discussions with other was my party’s spokesman on the Royal Navy, but there political parties after the general election if we unfortunately you are. Politics is a strange profession. find ourselves in a coalition again. We must have a strong Navy, which will mean a strong Devonport and a Oliver Colvile: My hon. Friend has a great deal to strong Plymouth. I am very keen to ensure that. contribute, because he had a distinguished career as a The issue is not just the seaborne deterrent, but how reservist in the Royal Navy. we can use our Royal Navy to deliver soft power. We all know that, if we end up putting a ship into port, Dr Lewis: The distinction that I achieved cannot be everybody is interested in knowing what is happening overemphasised: I advanced from probationer ordinary and what the ship is going to do. They also thoroughly seaman to full ordinary seaman. I was very proud to be enjoy the idea of occasionally having a drink on board. one, because even in those days—it was from 1979 to I assure the Chamber that we have done much work in 1982, or thereabouts—I was too old to be an officer that regard. I understand that people in Sierra Leone cadet. I feel the bus pass jingling in my pocket. are still talking about a Royal Navy frigate or aircraft Yesterday, I took the day off and had the great carrier being just over the horizon and about how, if pleasure of travelling to Southampton university at the they do not behave themselves, the Royal Navy will be invitation of Commander Chris Ling, commanding turning up immediately on their beaches. Therefore, officer of Thunderer Squadron, which is the defence soft power is very important. technical undergraduate scheme at the university, and We must ensure that, in the next SDSR and in the Lieutenant Amie Jackson. She—I emphasise “she”—is next spending round, the Navy is recognised and has the commanding officer of the warship HMS Blazer, the Government’s full and utter support. which is attached to the university’s Royal Navy unit. It was wonderful to celebrate with them the opening of their new joint headquarters at the National Oceanography 10.22 am Centre. Looking at the fine young people who are Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): My hon. coming through the system and having a first-class Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) maritime education there, I could not help wondering has long been an articulate commentator on Army how many opportunities they would have, and how issues; more recently he has taken up the cudgels on many naval vessels would be available for them to serve behalf of the Royal Navy. If I were in charge of the in, in the years ahead, when they go on, as so many of Royal Air Force, I would look to my laurels, because I them do, to professional careers in the Royal Navy. am sure that it is next on his agenda. To give the I said that I would talk a bit about strategy. I have Minister maximum time to consider my questions, I will always acknowledged on a cross-party basis that the ask them at the beginning of my contribution rather concepts of Labour’s 1998 strategic defence review were than at the end, so he will be at liberty to ignore very sound. They recognised that we were no longer anything I say afterwards. facing as our primary concern the cold war threat on First, when the main gate contracts are signed some the continent, and that if our forces were engaged, it time next year after the Scottish referendum, will a would be in more far-flung theatres. As we were no minimum of 13 frigates be ordered? Secondly, does longer an empire and no longer had a string of bases all the Minister accept that the unit cost of new frigates over the world, it would be necessary to have a portable, will be much cheaper if all 13 are ordered at the outset? movable sea base that we could use to take our joint Thirdly, eight of the 13 frigates will specialise in anti- forces to the theatre in which they were engaged. That submarine warfare. Was that figure derived from doctrinal seemed sound then, and it is sound today. That concept consideration, and if so, what is it? My concern is that required two sorts of taskforce: one to allow air power 201WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 202WH

[Dr Julian Lewis] rumours that the Government intended to mothball, if not permanently dispose of, another half a dozen frigates to be projected from the sea, hence the aircraft carriers; to take the total down to 19. In the end, that gradually and the other to enable military power to be landed slipped away, but a couple of Type 23 frigates were paid from the sea, hence the amphibious taskforce. Broadly off, and effectively the total went down to 23 from 25. It speaking, we have the central elements of those taskforces. took the Conservative-led coalition coming in before we We know that the aircraft carriers are moving went down to 19 in the 2010 SDSR, yet the concept set steadily forward, whatever financial peaks and troughs out in 1998 remained basically sound: we needed to be they have had in their chequered history, and that able to fulfil certain standing tasks, to protect a mobile they will come to fruition. I would like to predict that base, and to escort an amphibious taskforce or an the Government will bring both carriers into service, aircraft carrier taskforce. I do not see what doctrinal because it would be sheer madness to build one of the developments since then justify such a radical reduction largest ships that the Royal Navy has ever seen and not in the numbers. deploy it. That leads to me to my final point, about the design The Albion, the Bulwark, and our Bay-class ships of concept, which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service form the core of the for Bournemouth East mentioned. It is about whether it amphibious taskforce, and again, it would be interesting might be worth looking at the other five more general- to know—although I do not expect an answer today—what purpose hulls that are proposed to bring the total plans there are to think about the next generation of number of frigates up to 13, and whether it might be assault ships to follow the Albion and the Bulwark. worth considering doing something simpler to get more However, the point about the two taskforces, and the hulls in the water from which we can regenerate the relevance to today’s debate, is that they will have to be surface fleet. Back in February 2005, in putting forward protected against air threats, surface threats and submarine that concept, I was unwise enough to say that, really, threats. As I said before, if we need a certain number of the replacement general-purpose frigates ought to be frigates—let us say as many as four to protect a taskforce, “as cheap as chips”, which is not the sort of phrase that if it were in a serious regional conflict—given the roles a proud Navy wants to hear. However, the point is that the frigates will have to perform in other areas, based on an important development that I referred to in including ongoing and standing tasks, I find myself my opening questions—the idea of plug and play. querying how the idea that we will generate a minimum When the Type 45s were designed and put into service, of seven available anti-submarine warfare frigates from they had a very large gymnasium. Why? Because they only eight out of the 13 will work. were designed in such a way that at a future stage in I shall say a brief word about numbers. I start from their life cycle, when we could afford it, we would be the standpoint that we are simply not spending enough able to plug into that large space a module of land on defence. I know all the economic arguments about attack cruise missiles, which would hugely increase the that, but the fact is that as a proportion of gross ships’ power, even though we felt that we could not domestic product, defence spending has declined too afford to do so at the beginning. It is perfectly possible far down our list of priorities. Spending was between to design ships that are relatively simple, but that have 4% and 5% during the cold war years. When Labour that capacity; I am extremely glad to see the hon. came into office in 1997, it went from 2.9% to 2.6%, Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) nodding in then to 2.8%. Then, in successive years, it was 2.7%, agreement. We are very capable of upgrading those 2.7% again, 2.5%, 2.5% again, and so on. That looked ships in their lifetime, and adding to their capacity. fairly consistent, but the problem was that during that Perhaps it is too late now—I do not know—but we period, we were engaged in fighting two large regional could at least try to keep the number of hulls a bit larger conflicts, and the Treasury was not prepared to stump and lessen the complexity a bit; we would then have the up the extra money to fund those conflicts in full. As a basis for upgrading the quality of the vessels during result, we found the core military budget being eaten their lifetime. away by the financing of current conflicts, and since then, under the present Government, the situation has Angus Robertson: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman not improved. I believe that we are down to something looks closely at the royal Danish navy’s StanFlex system, like 2.1% of GDP at present, and I feel that that is the which does exactly that. root of the problem. Dr Lewis: It is very much one of the examples that I At the time of the strategic defence review that set have in mind. Those vessels are extremely economical, out those concepts, the Labour Government proposed but they are out there in good numbers, and as was said reducing the combined number of frigates and destroyers by my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline from 35 to 32. The admirals gritted their teeth and Dinenage), who had to leave, they are exportable. accepted that, but it quickly emerged that 32 had actually gone down to 31, and the then Secretary of State, Geoff I think that the Chamber has heard more than enough Hoon, formulated what I later dubbed the “Hoon excuse”, from me on these matters. I very much look forward to which was, “It doesn’t really matter that we have lost an hearing the wind-ups and, in particular, answers to extra frigate, because they are more powerful than they some of the questions I posed. If I cannot have them all used to be, so 31 ships can do what 32 used to do.” That, just now, perhaps I can have some of them in writing. I am afraid, was the start of a very slippery slope. 10.39 am The next bite taken out of the total by the Labour Government took the number down from 31 to 25. I Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I remember standing up in the House of Commons at the commend the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth beginning of 2007 waxing eloquent about persistent East (Mr Ellwood) for securing the debate and for 203WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 204WH highlighting a series of pertinent issues and the questions all-dancing and much admired by other nations, but that follow from them. I wholly support his tribute not they are unlikely to want to buy it and we are unlikely to only to those who serve in the Royal Navy, but to the want to sell it, I suspect, to be honest. We are also communities that support them. His article for the looking beyond the Type 23s to the global combat ship, Royal United Service Institute, “Leveraging UK Carrier the Type 26, so there are quite exciting times ahead in Capability”, has rightly received a lot of attention. It terms of ship design. raises some issues and points that I will come back to We are looking at a new configuration of our Navy later. based on fewer ships. I heard what the hon. Member for The hon. Gentleman described the changing world in Bournemouth East said about the design and numbers which we live and set out the argument for a strong of Type 26s. I will come back to that later in my speech, Navy to support activity in the littoral environment. if I may. That argument was reinforced by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile). The Mr Ellwood: Does the hon. Lady recognise that the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), with his number of ships is also important in relation to the usual passion for defence issues, put a series of questions career structures of the Royal Navy? There need to be to the Minister—I hope that he will be able to answer the command postings to ensure that there is that them—but also, with his great background knowledge, experience. My concern is that that is perhaps being set out the historical challenges faced by successive capped. We do need that experience to continue at the Governments. top echelons of the Royal Navy. Last week, I was privileged to be at the celebration in Devonport of the centenary of HMS Warspite. Built Alison Seabeck: The hon. Gentleman raises a different in and launched from Plymouth, she was the most point, which almost requires a different debate, but it is decorated ship in the Royal Navy. There were people perfectly valid. It is about how people progress and how present who had served on her. “From Jutland Hero to we keep that expertise and the interest of people coming Cold War Warrior” was the description given by Iain in at the lower ranks—how do they go through the Ballantyne of Warships magazine. She was one in a long system? However, I will say to him that last week I was line of ships, cruisers, destroyers, frigates and aircraft with the First Sea Lord in Plymouth when he gave a carriers built in British shipyards. very robust defence of the Navy’s future configuration, Sadly, in the last few weeks, we have had the with the QE class sitting at its centre. He was very announcement that shipbuilding in Portsmouth will careful, as we would expect, not to specify the number cease, but around the UK, at smaller shipyards such as of carriers with which his successors will be working. Appledore, and on the Clyde, we have centres of excellence Given that we are approaching a further SDSR, I feel where there are skills that we need to protect if we are to that he was correct not to make assumptions. We need be able to continue to build ships, with sovereign capability. to understand what our defence and foreign policies We should acknowledge the expertise of all those involved, need to deliver and what we want them to deliver, and from the designers to fitters and systems engineers. clearly we also need to ensure within that that our They are global leaders. shores are fully and properly protected. Shipbuilding has historically been an industry that However, the First Sea Lord was genuinely excited has times of feast and times of famine. As the Government about the capability that the new carriers—I use the are often the only customer for some of these vessels—that plural with some care, for reasons that I have alluded issue was raised in relation to exportability, and I will to—will bring. There is no doubt that their ability to mention that—there needs to be a more clearly defined deploy the full spectrum of diplomatic, political and defence industrial strategy in this sector as we go forward. military options, to stand off and deliver hard and soft Therein lie some of the problems. We are demanding power, will be a major addition to the fleet and our ships that have greater longevity and need less servicing—in ability to defend our realm should we need to do so. the same way as we do for our cars—but we also want The global combat ship adds a further part to the value for money. That does leave gaps in the maintenance picture. It will be very interesting to watch the design as drumbeat. That was highlighted by the hon. Member it develops. It needs to be able to fulfil many roles—it for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) and will pose some needs to be flexible, to facilitate a full range of operations, problems for this Government and future Governments. to allow deployment of uninhabited or unmanned surface We are also looking for vessels to be designed that are and subsea vessels, towed sonar arrays and inflatables, slightly more generic, as the hon. Member for New as well as to have the capacity to take something as Forest East pointed out, and more exportable. In a large potentially as a Chinook and to be used with sense, it is quite difficult for us to compete in some of unmanned aerial vehicles doing airborne surveillance; it these markets when countries such as South Korea are will give them additional range. The new ships will not very well able to do some of that. The most recent just be single task-specific but must be designed with contract awarded by the Government, which was for flexible capability, and that is what I understand is the MARS—the military afloat reach and sustainability— happening with the Type 26s. project, went to South Korea; it did not go to a British The hon. Member for Bournemouth East was also shipyard. right to highlight the benefits of modularisation. I am Where do we go next? We have the Type 42 or sure that the Minister heard his comments about additional Sheffield-class destroyers, which are now at the end of helicopter bays in the new design. The hon. Member for their heroic service. The Type 42 is being replaced by a Bournemouth East also suggested a downgrade in design stunning vessel, the Type 45. It has been designed to for a proportion of the new Type 26s and was challenged avoid some of the issues with its predecessors. As has by my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for been pointed out, it is top-end, gold-plated, all-singing, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, about the ability of 205WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 206WH

[Alison Seabeck] with two bidders, but that a further withdrawal should initiate a formal reconsideration of whether a GoCo a limited number of full-strength Type 26s, with full was viable. capability, to protect carriers if the numbers were reduced. The Minister needs to make his mind up, and fast, That was a perfectly sensible question, and it will be ideally before the Defence Reform Bill is considered in interesting to see what the Minister says in response. the other place. What is it to be? Will it be new ships and weapons systems procured through a GoCo, or will it Oliver Colvile: Will the hon. Lady give way? be a DE&S-plus model that oversees the delivery of the Type 26 and the successor programme? Alison Seabeck: Of course I will give way to my constituency neighbour—as long as he is quick! 10.50 am Oliver Colvile: The hon. Lady is making a powerful The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence speech, but one of the things that is incredibly important (Mr Philip Dunne): I am grateful to have been given as well is to ensure that some of the Type 26s will be fractionally less than 10 minutes to wind up the debate. base-ported in Devonport. I would be grateful if the As a result, I will unfortunately not be able to address Minister could answer that as an issue, too. all the points that hon. Members have raised, because to do so would consume my entire time. I will endeavour Alison Seabeck: The hon. Gentleman is prescient to write to hon. Members whose questions I do not beyond belief, because my next paragraph says that address in my response. there of course needs to be a discussion about where the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Type 26s are base-ported. Sadly, the hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) on securing the debate. Gosport has been called away and is not in her place. As has been mentioned, he has become an expert not That decision needs to be taken on strategic grounds. only in land matters but increasingly in maritime affairs. We need to consider how we protect our skills base and Other hon. Members have already referred to his paper we need to ensure that we do not have all our eggs in for RUSI, which is a masterclass on how to pursue one basket. I listened with interest to the hon. Lady, Ministers for answers to parliamentary questions and who made a plea for base-porting—all base-porting in turn them into an authoritative document. I am pleased effect—to be in Portsmouth. As I have said, that, in my to have been able to contribute in some way to that view, is a sentimental, not a strategic, view. We need to process. protect skills across all our bases. Clearly, I have a A number of colleagues have referred to the second strong view about Plymouth and ensuring that we have aircraft carrier, and I would like to start by pointing out a drumbeat that works for our work force as well. that our surface fleet is in the process of regeneration Of course, the new vessel will be designed with stealth and renewal. As the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor and unobservability in mind and will need to be acoustically View (Alison Seabeck) indicated, this is an exciting time quiet. It will be interesting to see whether she resembles for the Royal Navy, as we transition from a legacy fleet in any way the futuristically designed Sea Shadow or into a new high-tech, latest-capability fleet. Aircraft USS Zumwalt. The latter has an outline that is not too carriers will be the next vessels to form part of that dissimilar from the very early iron-clad battleships, so fleet. It is not appropriate to indicate at this point what this is quite an exciting time in ship design. I am sure will happen to the second carrier, so I am unable to give that those involved are extremely stimulated by the an answer to that question. As my right hon. Friend the challenge that the Type 26 offers. Secretary of State for Defence has indicated in the Equally, the launch of the new QE class will be a House, however, a decision is expected to be made as milestone in naval history. That programme has been part of the strategic defence and security review in through the wringer in terms of procurement, under the 2015. last Government and certainly under this one. We do It is important to emphasise that we see the carrier need to know, as the hon. Member for Bournemouth strike capability as offering a step change in power East pointed out, whether there is an intention to projection, giving the UK the ability to project decisive mothball the second boat and perhaps keep HMS Ocean political intent and military will at reach. The carrier going for longer. What is Ocean’s future? Plymouthians has been designed as a multi-role platform in addition will certainly have a view about that and would welcome to carrier strike. In its littoral manoeuvre role, it will be an answer. able to land Royal Marines or special forces, evacuate On procurement, we do need to do much better. I put non-combatants and deliver humanitarian aid, disaster my hands up, in terms of some of the problems that we relief or international defence diplomacy and engagement. had under the last Government, on this. We need to be The programme is on track to deliver an operational clearer through the SDSR about our future needs—the capability for carrier strike in 2020. type of wars we need and want to fight, as well as how On the next platform upgrade—the Type 26 global those demands play into our industrial strategy and combat ship—I have to be a little cautious in what I say, industrial base. That said, we also have to have a vehicle because the main gate investment decision will not be that can deliver our new ships on time and on budget. taken until the end of next year. I have been pressed by Two weeks ago, we saw the collapse of one of the two colleagues to advance investment decisions before the remaining consortiums bidding for the GoCo model for design is fully mature, but the Government have been future procurement, which was bad news for the clear that that was one of the reasons why we believe the Government. It is difficult to see how the Government previous Government got into some difficulty in major can continue to pursue that option when their own platform procurements. I was grateful to hear the hon. report stated that the competition would still be possible Member for Plymouth, Moor View acknowledge for, I 207WH Royal Navy Ships3 DECEMBER 2013 Royal Navy Ships 208WH believe, the first time in the Chamber that the previous I will try to address the questions raised by my hon. Administration encountered some problems with Friend the Member for Bournemouth East, who made procurement. I do not intend to place us in a similar a thoughtful speech. He asked about modularity of situation by pre-announcing decisions before the designs systems and whether we can construct vessels that are are mature. We are making good progress with the capable of plug and play. A number of weapon systems design. Some 70% of the equipment systems have been and command systems that we seek to introduce in our selected or are being selected by the design authority, vessels will be portable. Perhaps the most obvious recent BAE Systems, and we have increasing confidence in the example is the Sea Ceptor air defence missile, which we maturity of the design. It is being designed with modularity have recently contracted to introduce to the Type 23, in mind, and I hope to cover that point before I conclude. with a view to transitioning it to the Type 26. As he mentioned, the system has many features in common I would like to tackle head-on the claim that we heard with a version that is capable of being launched on yet again today about the impact on shipyards in Scotland land. That is the approach that we are taking to a of a yes vote in the Scottish referendum. Last week, the number of defence assets. We are rationalising our Scottish Government claimed in their White Paper that helicopter fleets to allow greater interoperability between they would support the procurement of defence equipment services. The Wildcat, which will be capable of being and services in an independent Scotland, as we heard carried on our frigates and destroyers, will also be used again today, claiming that to do so would protect the by the Army Air Corps. Modularity and interoperability future of Scotland’s shipyards. However, the White are features of the systems that we seek to introduce. Paper completely failed to acknowledge that, as part of the UK, companies in Scotland already benefit greatly The flexibility of the Type 26 is provided by the from the billions of pounds of work that is placed with mission bay, which is a much larger hangar space than them to equip and support the UK armed forces. that of the Type 23. It can carry a payload of 10 20-foot Thousands of people are employed in the defence sector containers, a medical centre or a command and control in Scotland. The defence industry offers some of the centre. It can contain four landing craft for rapid response best high-tech engineering jobs and opportunities in by Royal Marines. The vessel has been designed to have Scotland, and it contributes substantially to local economies a smaller crew than that of the Type 23, but it can across Scotland. accommodate some 100 Royal Marines or other personnel for protracted engagements, or a much larger number Orders for complex warships such as destroyers and of individuals for a short time, when the vessel performs the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers, on which an evacuation role. It will be the most flexible vessel of some 4,000 people are currently employed in Scottish its kind and the most modern frigate design available in yards, were won only on the basis that the UK can the world, so we believe that it will have some export choose to place or hold competition for such contracts potential—a point made by several hon. Members. domestically for national security reasons under an In the less than half a minute remaining to me, I will exemption from EU law. The UK has not placed an unfortunately not be able to address many of the questions order for a complex warship outside its own borders in that have been asked, but I would like to deal with modern times. If Scotland were not part of the UK, it numbers and commissioning. My hon. Friend the Member would not benefit from that national security exemption. for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) gave me due notice of The question of how defence jobs in Scotland would be his questions. We intend to place an order towards the sustained in an independent Scottish state remains wholly end of next year, once the design is mature, which we unanswered. The thousands of skilled defence jobs in expect to be for eight vessels initially— Scotland are safer and more secure if the country remains part of the UK. Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. 209WH 3 DECEMBER 2013 Mayfields New Town 210WH

Mayfields New Town and is opposed by the overwhelming majority of local residents should be permitted to overturn local plans under any circumstances. 11 am I want to make it clear beyond any doubt that our Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): It is a great district councils are planning responsibly for new housing. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. Mid Sussex district council—the authority that covers With your permission and the agreement of the Minister, my constituency and two wards in that of my right hon. I propose allocating a few minutes of my time to my Friend—has produced an excellent and formidably argued right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South draft plan. That plan explicitly rejects large-scale Downs (Nick Herbert). I called for the debate to raise developments, such as Mayfields. It sets a clearly thought- an issue of the greatest concern to our constituents—namely, out and substantiated housing target of 10,600 homes the proposal by Mayfield Market Towns Ltd to build between 2011 and 2031. It states that, outside the strategic up to 10,000 houses on open countryside between Henfield sites identified—the Mayfields site is not among them— and Sayers Common in West Sussex. That new town “the homes to be provided elsewhere in the District will come would stretch across the border of Horsham and Mid forward through Neighbourhood Plans.” Sussex district councils and our constituencies and is Furthermore, it calls for development which, thus of profound concern to us both. The proposal is totally and wholly inappropriate and is causing the “reflects the distinctive towns and villages, retains their separate identity and character and prevents coalescence.” greatest possible local concern and anxiety. And so say all of us, with a resounding cheer. I want to say at the outset that my right hon. Friend and I acknowledge of course the need for new houses. Mid Sussex is anything but a nimby council trying to We accept that they are required to meet the demands avoid housing growth. Indeed, the Mid Sussex plan of a growing population and to meet the worthy aspirations aims to deliver more housing than the objectively assessed of our young people to live in their own houses. It is our need, making it unique in West Sussex. The objectively strong view that schemes such as the Mayfields project assessed need is for 411 homes per annum, and the plan are not helping to achieve that aim, but are seriously aims to deliver 530 homes. During the first five years of hindering it, and in the process, gravely undermining the plan, 3,000 new homes will be built in Burgess Hill support for the Government’s flagship commitment to alone. They are ready-to-go projects. The consortium of localism. developers is waiting only for the sites to be allocated before submitting a planning application. Why is Mayfields such a thoroughly bad scheme? Its proponents call the putative new settlement a “market I warmly commend the tremendous efforts of Mid town”. That is arrant nonsense, since there would be Sussex to get these fiendishly difficult matters right. Its minimal local employment. It would, as the excellent plan is wisely proactive about planning for growth, with Sussex branch of the Campaign to Protect Rural England a 3% year-on-year increase in economic activity envisaged observed, be a commuter town, since almost all its throughout the plan period. It includes significant new residents would in fact travel to other areas for work. employment space, including a new science park, which The glossy brochure produced by Mayfield Market is part of the Brighton city deal bid. Let us remember Towns absurdly suggests that its new residents would, that is all in an area between the South Downs national “work where they live”, or walk, cycle or take the bus to park and the High Weald area of outstanding natural their employment, “leaving the car at home”. Even the beauty, which gravely limits the council’s room for most zealous supporter of the scheme—there are not manoeuvre. All that good and laudable work is in many—would be hard pressed to describe it as sustainable. danger of being wrecked by the grotesque and wholly Apart from the destruction of beautiful countryside unwanted Mayfields proposal. and good, valuable, productive agricultural land, the The developer has attempted to threaten the district development is not on a railway line, nor is it close to a council into compliance with the scheme. When that major road, and there are already serious flood issues in failed, it has continued to place obstacles in the way of the area. With 25,000 people living in the new town, the plan’s passage. That is all thoroughly unhelpful and there would clearly be huge pressure on already inadequate disruptive, because the longer the plan is delayed, the local infrastructure. longer Mid Sussex will remain susceptible to speculative Those are just some of the reasons why Mid Sussex development and planning by appeal, serving the interests and Horsham district councils previously rejected the of developers only and not our local communities. The idea of a new town in the area in a report in 2010. That proposed new town is undermining localism, certainly report concluded: delaying necessary new housing and causing the greatest “Drawing on the lessons from earlier development of new possible anxiety and concern among local people. An towns, it is clear that a development of 10,000 homes will not admirable and energetic group—Locals Against Mayfield create a self-sufficient community.” Building Sprawl—is rallying support locally and putting My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the case against the deeply unsuitable plan in formidable Communities and Local Government has said that he and accurate detail. will not impose new towns on unwilling councils. I I want to tell my hon. Friend the Minister that agree with him; that is entirely the right approach. It is neither I nor my right hon. Friend the Member for strongly supported by my right hon. Friend the Member Arundel and South Downs will accept the new town, for Arundel and South Downs and me, and it is wholly and we will be deeply and abidingly unhappy if the consistent with the Localism Act 2011 and the national Government’s planning reforms, which we loyally supported planning policy framework. It is my firm hope and and which were meant to promote the principle of expectation therefore that the Minister will agree that sustainable development and localism, allow such an no proposal that has been rejected by the local council appalling development to happen. We cannot allow the 211WH Mayfields New Town3 DECEMBER 2013 Mayfields New Town 212WH localism that we promised, which local people supported, about the position of one of the directors of Mayfield to be overturned at the behest of developers. There will Market Towns, Lord Taylor of Goss Moor. Lord Taylor— be lasting damage, not just to the countryside, but to though I emphasise that he has properly declared the the Government. Our constituents expect us to honour interest—is one of the Government’s advisers on planning our party’s words and commitments; we intend to see and has been drawing up the very guidance on the thatwedo. national policy planning framework on which local authorities are being asked to rely, as they consider their local plans. How can one of the directors of a developer 11.8 am that is actively seeking to subvert localism and produce Nick Herbert (Arundel and South Downs) (Con): It a new town in a local area also advise the Government is a pleasure, Mr Hood, to join the debate secured by on how localism will work? That is clearly a conflict of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex interest. It is deeply resented by local people, and it is (Nicholas Soames). As he explained, we have a mutual damaging to the perception of the Government’s interest in the proposed new town, which crosses our independence in such matters. We do not believe that it two constituencies. I endorse every word that he said can stand. and share his deep concern about the proposal. I shall Fourthly, I turn to the core principle of localism that amplify a number of the points that he made. underlies the Government’s planning reforms and on First, there is considerable local concern about the the basis of which many of us supported those reforms. proposal. I have attended packed meetings in village It is interesting to note, for instance, that in the Telegraph, halls in my constituency. People have been unable to get which today reported the prize that Lord Wolfson is into meetings, because there is so much concern about offering for the most interesting idea for new towns, his the proposed new town. I have never known anything new adviser recently confirmed that Lord Wolfson like it. That concern is having a practical effect on “is committed to the idea that if the locals don’t want it, it should people’s economic well-being, because a planning blight not happen. So it is not top down.” is already being cast over the local area. Numerous As my right hon. Friend said, that is the Government’s constituents have written to me to express their concern stated position through the Secretary of State for about, for instance, their ability to sell their houses at Communities and Local Government, who has made it the normal market rate due to the belief that a new clear that proposals for new towns must have local town is threatened. consent. Mayfields does not have local consent either Secondly, I underline what my right hon. Friend said from the community or from the district councils concerned, about the importance of sustainability, which is, after which have explicitly ruled it out. all, written into the Government’s new planning policy. The principle was sustainable development, not The Prime Minister said last January: development at any price. The new planning policy “I care deeply about our countryside and environment. Our framework clearly set out three dimensions to that vision is one where we give communities much more say, much sustainability: environmental, social and economic. more control. The fear people have in villages is the great big housing estate being plonked down from above. Our reforms will It is therefore highly significant that a report make it easier for communities to say, ‘We are not going to have a commissioned earlier by Horsham, Crawley and Mid big plonking housing estate landing next to the village, but we Sussex councils, as my right hon. Friend said, ruled out would like 10, 20, 30 extra houses and we would like them built in a new town in the area precisely on the grounds that it this way, to be built for local people’.” would not be sustainable, for all the reasons set out. It I strongly support what the Prime Minister said more seems to me that the report is significant for an additional than a year ago about how local people feel when a reason: it shows that the local authorities considered a plonking development, to use his words, is proposed in development in the area. They are not ruling out the their area, and I supported the promise that they should notion of new housing out of hand, but they consider not have to have it and would be given greater control. that it is not appropriate or sustainable. Whose view will The local communities in both my constituency and carry the day when we promise localism in such matters? that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid I will return to that issue. Sussex are planning responsibly for new housing at The third issue is the behaviour of the developer in both the district and the neighbourhood level, but the promoting the scheme. Mayfield Market Towns has not new town and the way that localism is being subverted just set out a proposal for a new town; it has gone much are undermining their responsible plans, causing people further. For instance, it has distributed 8,000 leaflets in to lose faith in the very localism that we promised. the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member I remind the Minister that the 2010 Conservative for Horsham (Mr Maude), north of Horsham, telling manifesto said: people that they need not have development in that area “We will put neighbourhoods in charge of planning the way because they can have a new town outside their area their communities develop… To give communities greater control instead. The developers are setting out to undermine over planning, we will abolish the power of planning inspectors to the normal local planning process and interfere with the rewrite local plans”. sensitive consultations that local authorities are holding Yesterday, the planning inspector delayed Mid Sussex with our electorate. That is entirely reprehensible behaviour; council’s plan—that will damage the local environment it is deeply unhelpful to the development of new plans; and delay much-needed new housing in the area under and it should be roundly condemned. the plan—because the council apparently failed in its My hon. Friend the Minister knows that my right duty to co-operate, according to an over-elaborate hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex and I expressed interpretation of that duty not stated in the original concern previously, in a letter to the Secretary of State national policy planning framework. That will only for Communities and Local Government on 24 June, hinder the process of localism that we promised. 213WH Mayfields New Town3 DECEMBER 2013 Mayfields New Town 214WH

[Nick Herbert] “proactively drive and support sustainable economic development to deliver the homes, business and industrial units, infrastructure I reinforce the words of my right hon. Friend the and thriving local places that the country needs.” Member for Mid Sussex. This is not just a question of The framework also sets out that local planning two local Members of Parliament being concerned about authorities should prepare a strategic housing market a proposed development; we have been at pains to point assessment of their full housing needs, working with out that we support local plans that envisage a great neighbouring authorities where housing market areas deal of additional housing. This is much more. For us, it cross administrative boundaries. The SHMA should is a test of faith in the Government’s flagship policy of identify the scale and mix of housing, and the range of localism, which we loyally supported. The Minister tenures, that the local population is likely to need over knows that Conservative Members feel increasing concern the plan period. Authorities should use their local plan about how the policy is being interpreted, whether process to set out how they will meet that need, and through the behaviour of the Planning Inspectorate they should identify a five-year supply of specific deliverable and the instructions that it appears to have been given sites to provide for that need, with a buffer to ensure or through the drive to raise housing numbers against choice and competition. Where they have not done so, a the spirit of the local control that we promised. presumption in favour of sustainable development will This developer cannot be allowed to abuse the reforms apply, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid of localism that were passed by the House and promised Sussex said. The NPPF is clear that authorities should in our manifesto and the coalition agreement and in plan to meet their needs. which local people put their trust when we made those Despite the concerns raised today, as both my right pledges. We cannot stand before them and defend a hon. Friends have said and as I have heard myself, there policy unless that policy is true to what we said: that is widespread support across the country for more local people will have control, that responsible local housing to meet the needs of local communities. However, authorities should be free to take their own decisions my right hon. Friends will recognise, as I do, that when and that we would not allow a top-down planning a development is potentially to be located on a greenfield process that has done so much damage to support for site or in the green belt there is often an outcry from development in the past. communities. That is understandable, and I do not want to see any more green fields being used than is necessary. 11.18 am Indeed, the NPPF maintains strong protections for the TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities green belt, areas of outstanding natural beauty and and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): I am pleased to other environmental designations. It also allows councils serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I welcome to introduce a new local green space designation to the fact that my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid provide additional planning protection for green areas Sussex (Nicholas Soames) has secured this debate on that are demonstrably special to a local community and the important issue of housing development. The backdrop that hold a particular local significance. Also, the framework to this debate is the proposed Mayfields new town continues to encourage the reuse of brownfield sites. development, which I know is of great importance to Most importantly, however, the changes that we have him and my right hon. Friend the Member for Arundel made to the planning system put local plans at the heart and South Downs (Nick Herbert). of the system. Unlike the previous Government’s approach My right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex of having top-down regional strategies, which imposed will be aware that policy responsibility for planning lies housing numbers and forced green-belt reviews on with the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and communities, local authorities should now be assessing Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for their own need and working with their communities to Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), who unfortunately decide how and where to put the homes to meet that could not be with us today. I am absolutely delighted to need. respond on the Government’s behalf on this issue. I wish to make it clear that my ministerial role means that Not every community can meet its needs. That is why I am not able to comment on the specific issues about local authorities should work together constructively, the Mayfields new town proposal. However, I recognise actively and on an ongoing basis to maximise the that my right hon. Friends the Members for Mid Sussex, effectiveness of their local plans, in line with the duty to and for Arundel and South Downs, are very much local co-operate that was introduced by the Localism Act champions, giving a local voice to those people who are 2011. Good plans are now being made across the country. very concerned about the proposal. I am absolutely sure When this Government came to power, only 33% of that they will insist that the correct process is undertaken local authorities had published a plan; now, more than regarding the receipt of any application, and that they 76% of them have published one. will ensure that a local plan is developed and is appropriate. I am also absolutely sure that they will be robust in any Nicholas Soames: I am following very carefully what challenge they make to Government if they feel that my hon. Friend the Minister is saying. However, does he Government action is inappropriate. agree that it is extremely important that plans entered However, I want to reassure my right hon. Friends into and work done in good faith by district councils that power lies with local government, through local are not altered in any way as a result of the Government plans, and that it is up to local communities to shape the moving the goalposts during the process? response to their housing needs—the two points that they have both made. To provide that reassurance, I Kris Hopkins: I recognise that concern, but I do not want to start by reiterating some of the key aspects of see any change in those goalposts; they are not moving. national planning policy. A core principle in the national I know that the Under-Secretary of State for Communities planning policy framework is that planning should and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member 215WH Mayfields New Town 3 DECEMBER 2013 216WH for Grantham and Stamford,who is not here today, is Local Authority Funding absolutely committed to supporting local communities in the development of their local plan to shape their community. [MR GARY STREETER in the Chair] Neighbourhood plans are at the centre of this new system. Whereas regional strategies and central targets built nothing but resentment, setting people against 2.30 pm development that was imposed on them, communities Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): have firmly grasped the opportunity to engage with Mr Streeter, it is a great pleasure to serve under your neighbourhood plans. I know that that is true in Mid chairmanship for the first time, particularly in this most Sussex, which is a hotbed of neighbourhood plan activity; important debate, which I was delighted to secure. local people there are taking control of shaping their community. Local government finance holdbacks may not, on the face of it, be the most exciting subject to be debated in I will touch on large-scale housing development. The the House, but the issue is central to the daily experience Government have recognised that there is a need for of so many of our constituents. Indeed, for my constituents new homes, and sometimes that need can be met through in Newcastle upon Tyne Central, this is probably the planning for larger-scale developments, such as new most important debate that I have secured. It goes to settlements or extensions to existing villages or towns, the heart of the delivery of public services—services following the principles of the garden cities. The previous that are delivered mainly, and increasingly, by local Government also liked the idea of large-scale development, councils—and ultimately affects how many potholes but there is a contrast between their approach and ours. are filled, how many homes are built and how well our Their top-down eco-towns programme was an expensive buses are run. failure, plagued, I have to say, by community opposition to bureaucrats in Whitehall who drew lines on maps. I have come here not to ask the Minister for more That top-down approach is very different to our approach. money, although if he has found some that would be great, but to examine how we might best use what we Our focus is on supporting the development of long-term have and how we can ensure that fairness, which is so new communities that local authorities and local ingrained in British values and culture, is at the centre. I communities want, helping to ensure that key infrastructure hope that he will engage with the debate constructively and community facilities are built alongside new homes, and that he will not use the autumn statement and the and not later, as an afterthought. We are doing that by upcoming settlement announcement to hide from what supporting local authorities and development partners I am sure he knows are the serious concerns of councils to bring forward a pipeline of ambitious new communities throughout the country, of all political persuasions. through brokerage, capacity and capital investment. So far, we have invested some £80 million for 69,000 new We can agree, at the outset, that we all want a system homes, including those in a scheme in Cranbrook in of local government financing that is fair, transparent Devon, where our investment is supporting the development and allows councils to plan ahead, as far as possible. of a new sustainable community of 6,000 new homes. Although I will speak mainly about the impact on We hope that a further 14 sites across the country will Newcastle, the issues we face there are the same as those eventually deliver some 38,000 homes. Importantly, local faced by many councils across England, particularly, communities are driving this process, which is not about but by no means exclusively, in urban areas. the Government adopting a top-down approach, but Shortly after the election, the Prime Minister said, about local communities making choices about where “This government will not cut this deficit in a way that hurts these large-scale developments should be. those we most need to help, that divides the country, or that To conclude, the planning system is changing for the undermines the spirit and ethos of our public services”. better. It asks communities to meet their need for housing—I I was so pleased to secure this debate, because that is recognise that both my right hon. Friends have expressed exactly what the current local government finance proposals their commitment to new housing and have spoken of will do. We in this country pride ourselves on a sense of their areas’need for it—while maintaining strong protections fair play. Fairness is, these days, the political centre for the environment. It asks communities to do so ground and everyone wishes to position themselves on through local and neighbourhood plans, which allow it. This Government are finding that if a policy, such as them to decide where development should take place. letting energy companies hike up energy prices in the Where authorities have failed to plan, the presumption midst of a cost of living scandal, is seen as unfair, you in favour of sustainable development will apply. While lose—except, perhaps, if that policy is wrapped up in we continue to support the principle of large-scale enough accounting doublespeak and councils are blamed developments as a way of meeting the overwhelming for not implementing what the Association of North housing need that we face, Government funding and East Councils has called “impossible cuts”. It seems expert advice is clearly predicated on local community that, if that is done, one can get away with it. ANEC support. As I have said, I am sure that the enthusiasm, says that, since 2011, councils have seen a one third engagement and leadership of my right hon. Friends reduction in funding—a staggering amount—and estimates will help to shape community opinion in the areas that that by 2017 funding will have been cut by 50% in real they represent. I thank them for their questions. terms. I emphasise that this debate is about not the overall 11.29 am spending level—I know that the Minister does not Sitting suspended. decide that—but how we distribute what we have. Analysis of the Government’s proposals for the next local government finance settlement by the special interest 217WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 218WH

[Chi Onwurah] cut put dreadful pressure on the council, which provides services such as social care, and does it not impact on group of municipal authorities, which is a group of constituents? urban councils within the Local Government Association, found that municipal authorities Chi Onwurah: I had the pleasure of visiting Oldham “started off from a position of disadvantage; have borne a not long ago, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right to disproportionate burden of cuts under the Spending Review; and highlight the disproportionate cuts that Oldham is suffering carry the greatest risk of the highest cuts in the future.” under this funding approach. I will speak about the new The insidious nature of this Government’s top-slicing homes bonus shortly. The Government claim to be and holdbacks in particular will have an impact on giving money to councils such as Oldham and Newcastle, services for people struggling through the cost of living but they are in fact taking away far more than they are crisis in Newcastle and similar towns and cities. giving. Councils must be in a viable financial position if they The Audit Commission estimates that one third of are to fulfil the statutory burden that Whitehall places councils, many of which are in the most deprived areas, on them. On top of that, we expect them to be—indeed, are at risk of financial failure in the medium term under we insist that they should be—active partners in driving current proposals. An equal percentage cut based on forward economic growth, yet the north-east has endured spending power would bring significant benefits to many the biggest cuts, with higher reductions in spending of those deprived areas across the country, not only in power than the national average. In the spending review, Newcastle and London but in the north-west and the we were told to expect 10% cuts in core funding, yet the shire counties and districts. north-east is now looking at a real-terms cut of 25% Children’s social care is an area of particular concern when social care costs are included. That is putting as we see growing need and reduced funding. In Newcastle public services under severe strain. and the north-east, there are real and growing concerns At the beginning of the year, the Department for about the pressures on children’s services. Indeed, I Communities and Local Government estimated that recently looked at a website containing anonymous next year Newcastle would see a cut per dwelling of reports from social workers working in children’s services, £126, compared with an average cut in England of £75 and it was a frightening insight into the pressures that and a cut in Wokingham, for example, of £19. It later they face. emerged that those figures for Newcastle were significantly The number of looked-after children is growing at understated. At a time when demand for services in the 11% nationally, with higher pressures in the north-east. north-east is increasing, why does the Minister think Councils have seen a 4% cash increase in costs, but that targeting areas with higher levels of deprivation to DCLG and the Department for Education have cut make savings is the fairest way to implement these cuts? children’s social care funding by 30%. Children’s social Will that not hurt care assessment was cut by 30% between 2010 and “those we most need to help”, 2013-14, which is about four times the assumed cut, to use the Prime Minister’s words? I urge the Minister while the number of looked-after children has increased to respond to that question in particular and I am sure by 31% in the north-east since 2009. Budgeted spending that he will. on children’s social care rose by 4% nationally, but by Has the Minister considered allocating cuts to councils just 1% in the north-east. by an equal percentage, based on spending power? When ANEC raised concerns, the response by Ministers Would that not be fairer? If not, why not? By what at the Department for Education was that councils process did he decide that his current proposals are would have to find the cuts “somewhere else.” It is fairer and will not disproportionately hit the most deprived? difficult to see how a further 25% cut in core funding in I ask him to publish any evidence that is to the contrary the north-east can in any way be justified. How can it be of the Audit Commission’s report, among others, which taken out of children’s services over the next two years? sets out how deprived areas will suffer more than wealthier Will the Minister explain why spending on children’s ones and to which Sir Merrick Cockrell, the Conservative social care has been cut so much when the levels of need leader of Kensington and Chelsea council and chairman are increasing? of the LGA, responded: Ministers like to come up with complex formulas for “The report highlights a significant variation in the impact of giving money to councils that tend to benefit wealthier the cuts at a local level, with a number of places taking a authorities, but when it comes to cutting money, Ministers disproportionately heavy hit. It provides yet more evidence that the existing system of funding is too exposed to the vagaries of are increasingly turning to crude holdbacks and top-slicing national politics and incapable of delivering the long term certainty from the central revenue budget. It is possible that not that local areas need to deliver consistently excellent services.” everyone here is familiar with holdbacks. Indeed, I confess that, prior to entering Parliament, I did not Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) follow the intricacies of local government financing (Lab): My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. with as much attention as I possibly should have. I Does she agree that, in addition to the cut in revenue dread to think how much excitement I have missed as a support grant for Newcastle upon Tyne Central, there result. has been a disproportionate cut in the revenue support A holdback is when Ministers or civil servants decide grant for Oldham, a metropolitan area with two Members that money allocated to councils will literally be held of Parliament? In fact, in 2014-16, that will have decreased back by Whitehall for a specific purpose or on a certain by £36.8 million, which will, unfortunately, not be recouped condition, which, again, disproportionally affects the by the new homes bonus, for example, which has raised most deprived councils. Money is being cut from the just £700,000. I support her argument. Does not that central pot, the revenue support grant, which automatically 219WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 220WH means that councils with the highest need lose out the Anticipating what might come on Thursday, and most. If the Minister decides that he wants to hold back assuming the Chancellor is minded to go some way £500 million, for example, it comes from the central towards assisting small businesses by freezing business budget, which means that all councils lose a slice. The rate increases next year, does my hon. Friend agree that councils that would have received a bigger slice, because it is essential that the Chancellor makes it transparent they have greater need, lose out more. A holdback of that any costs should be borne by the Exchequer, not by £500 million would mean that Newcastle loses £4 million, local authorities? Given the sleight of hand that she has whereas Wokingham loses only £400,000. That is a £32 just described, we want that spelled out in crystal clear cut per household in Newcastle and a £6 cut per household terms to assure us that it is being done. in Wokingham. Authorities such as Hackney and Birmingham are even worse off, at £50 and £37 per Chi Onwurah: My hon. Friend makes an excellent household respectively. All authorities would then get point, as always, and he is absolutely right. I have lost some money back, but if the funding is skewed to count of the number of occasions that I have heard favour wealthy authorities, as it so often is under this Ministers announce funding for my local authority—I Government, the effect is a budget transfer from poor will give the example of the new homes bonus in a to rich, which is Robin Hood, disguised as a Whitehall minute—that is actually a cut in funding more generally. accountant, in reverse. That is not a pleasant sight. If the autumn statement on Thursday is used to announce Parliament has decided that the money should be any further support for business rates or for local authorities, used to fund councils for services that they have a legal I am sure that the Chancellor will set out transparently duty to provide. SIGOMA, ANEC, the Audit Commission exactly where the funding will come from. If he does and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation have all highlighted not, I am sure that parliamentary questions will follow. the problem, so will the Minister explain whether he I could consider the approach to be an error, mistake agrees with their analysis? With what does he disagree? or one-off, but several holdbacks have had a similar Why are the Government increasingly using holdbacks effect, and the new homes bonus is one of the most to fund projects? important. Money is top-sliced from the revenue budget— This week, we have been reading in the papers that on everyone’s budget—but then finds it way predominantly Thursday the Chancellor plans to cap business rate to the wealthier parts of the country. I always thought rises. With small business Saturday this weekend, it that a bonus was something extra on top of a payment. would surely have been more appropriate and beneficial to local economies if he had stolen another Labour Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): policy by cutting and then freezing business rates. The As well as. Chancellor should not feel shy. When councils were told that business rate takings Chi Onwurah: Exactly. I thought that that was inherent were to be localised, thereby shifting the risk on to the in the term. Ministers in this Government, however, councils, I do not think they expected that any potential fund their bonuses not only from existing money, but reward would be offset by equal cuts to their revenue from existing money that some might argue is not funding. The business rate safety net is yet another theirs. example of how unfair holdbacks can be for poorer The new homes bonus increases cumulatively for six areas. Will the Minister tell us whether the business rate years and is estimated to peak at some £2 billion. The safety net is flawed? Was it designed on purpose so that increases are funded by deducting the increase from the councils such as Newcastle end up funding shortfalls in revenue support grant, so it favours authorities in wealthier business rate takings in Westminster by a staggering parts of the country, owing to their higher house prices amount? and relatively low reduction in needs-based funding. The safety net—again, this a technical description of Although Newcastle loses £5.3 million through top-slicing a complex area—provides funding for any council for to fund the new homes bonus, it is given back only which business rate receipts fall more than 7.5% below £2.2 million. The Minister gets to put out a press release its baseline funding level. The safety net is funded by a saying that he is generously rewarding the council with levy on councils for which the increase in revenue from £2.2 million, but nobody notices the reality that Newcastle business rates outstrips the increase in its funding level has actually lost out by £3 million. Wiltshire, for example, and holdbacks. will have seen a net gain of over £4 million. At the same A holdback of £25 million was originally created to time, my surgeries and mailbox are testament to the fact fund the difference between levy funds and safety net that the lack of affordable housing is a critical issue for payments so that all authorities would fund the safety my constituents. net. The history is quite complex, but what is crucial is The new homes bonus is unfair and does not work, that, because the estimated levy amount has proved which has been confirmed by the National Audit Office inadequate, the top-slice holdback has been increased and the Public Accounts Committee. Does the Minister to £120 million next year. That is a staggering increase, intend to press ahead with it? Newcastle city council and SIGOMA says that, because of the system’s design, and the Association of North East Councils have called Westminster city council will claim more than two for it to be frozen at 2013-14 levels. What is the Minister’s thirds of the national £79 million safety net pot next view? It would allow him to return some of the planned year. That is two thirds for one of the richest councils in holdbacks to core funding and to relieve some of the the country. Again, funding is disproportionately going pressures that Newcastle and other councils are facing. from poorer areas to richer areas. Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I congratulate Mr Betts: My hon. Friend is making a good point my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I am about the new homes bonus, which is one of the original sorry that I cannot stay until the end. and probably largest holdbacks, and she is right to draw 221WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 222WH

[Mr Betts] are holding back the services that my constituents and so many others need. We need to focus on that. It is attention to the Public Accounts Committee report. As important that the Minister identifies and explains why she says, the key is in the title—new homes bonus. It is this is happening and what he can do to stop the not a bonus, and the Public Accounts Committee decided impacts that we are talking about. that there was no evidence that it had led to the building I have one overarching point for the Minister. The of any new homes. mechanism is regressive and effectively moves money to better-off areas, but it is also opaque and severely limits Chi Onwurah: My hon. Friend makes an excellent councils’ ability to plan in advance. Will he work to point. I was in the Chamber when it was revealed that ensure that future rounds of local government finance the new homes bonus’s purpose was not to build new settlements are conducted more transparently? Ministers homes, which reveals a subtlety of language that I have found ways to give varying protection to some confess is beyond me. It is clearly of concern, and I am more visible services, but that increases the pressure on sure that the Minister will explain not only what the other funds. When the Minister chooses to protect bonus is achieving, but how we can ensure that it is London transport funding by 6%, money for children’s more fairly distributed, so that Newcastle and other social care and libraries is squeezed in Newcastle. authorities are not disadvantaged. I want to bring the Minister back to the Prime Will the Minister also explain why the figure in the Minister’s quote about tackling the deficit: settlement paper for 2015-16 is £210 million higher than “This Government will not cut this deficit in a way that hurts that quoted in the new homes bonus consultation, those we most need to help, that divides the country, or that which was based on an estimate from the National undermines the spirit and ethos of our public services”. Audit Office? Would he consider using the National Does the Minister think that the Government’s approach Audit Office figure? The Local Government Association to local government finance has been fair and in the estimates that £210 million would cover the cost of interests of councils’ ability to plan for the long term? filling 4 million potholes or 30% of the country’s street- I urge the Minister to listen to councils throughout cleaning bill for a year. It would be good to know what the country, to find an alternative way to reduce the has happened to and what is being done with that additional cuts by reducing council holdbacks and top-slices. money. That will help all councils to prevent further unnecessary Finally, I want to discuss the stability and transparency service cuts and job losses. It will also help them to implications of the Government’s use of holdbacks. It stabilise their finances, at a time when one third of them is essential that councils get consistent figures when face serious financial failure in the medium term. planning budgets. Newcastle city council has identified Two weeks ago, I visited St Paul’s Church of England several other holdbacks amounting to over £550 million primary school in my constituency and was given an next year and a massive £1.5 billion the year after that excellent tour by the head, Mrs Judith Sword. I also would be better either returned to core funding or held a question-and-answer session with the year 6 funded through other means. The holdbacks include pupils. One of them asked me why the council did not capitalisation, the collaboration and efficiency fund, the spend its money better, so that the libraries could stay fire transformation fund, the independent living fund, open. I explained that the council was losing a third of the troubled families fund and the money for the new its budget, or more than £100 million—at that figure, social care burdens. I would welcome the opportunity there was big “Oh!” of shock in the room—but that it to discuss them in more detail with the Minister if he had consulted with more than 50,000 residents to decide feels that he does not have the time to speak to each the fairest way to implement the cuts. I did not add, today. because I did not want to over-complicate my answer, that there was not really any such thing as the council’s Debbie Abrahams: I congratulate my hon. Friend on money any more, because so much of it was being held securing the debate and on her speech. We are really back by the Government and redirected to other purposes, getting to the nub of the issue. Although we have been so that the council could not plan. I hope that the discussing cuts to council funding, it is ultimately about Minister understands how that unfair that is to the the cuts to services and the impact on our constituents’ children and adults of Newcastle and, indeed, to all lives. The independent living fund and the social care the children and adults in our constituencies throughout issues, with a particular focus on children, are affected, the country. but so are adult carers. People’s lives are being detrimentally affected, but it does not seem a priority for the Government. 3.1 pm Chi Onwurah: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): pay tribute to her for the passion that she brings to the It is again a pleasure to make a contribution to a debate subject. under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. As I said at the beginning, the subject appears dry, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle but my post box and surgeries reveal the daily impact of upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) on her choice of cuts to the funding of services and the progressive and topic. In the overall context of the Department’s budget, cumulative impact on the lives of often vulnerable the sum of money involved is relatively small, and the people, who find not only an impact on housing and subject that we are discussing may seem rather technical, social care, but that their streets are not as clean, that but as she has pointed out, the devil is in the detail. their environment is more depressing and that schools Furthermore, at the heart of what we ought to be do not have the same resources. That impact is partly a considering is fairness. I have had the honour and consequence of holdbacks. These dry financial mechanisms privilege of representing the great city of Newcastle 223WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 224WH upon Tyne for 30 years in this place, and I have to say to linked to deprivation—the parts of the finance settlement the Minister that what the Government are doing to that take such elements into account—are reduced, inner-city local authorities such as Newcastle—although increasing the pressures on councils. Perhaps it is an we are not unique—is simply not fair. unfortunate coincidence, but the councils most affected At the heart of the argument is the fact that the tend to be the poorer ones, representing communities statutory burdens on the authorities—in particular, people that are poorer—inner-city local authorities, which are have to be cared for, whether the elderly, those in social predominantly Labour controlled. The effect of the care or in need of even more intensive care, or children redistribution is towards more affluent parts of the taken into care—are driven by factors over which the local country that are not Labour controlled—they are controlled authority has no control. The separation of the need by parties in the governing coalition. from the money, which is what in essence the Government When the previous Conservative Government are doing, is a wicked thing. What ought to be the case nationalised what was then the local business rate, I is that a child who needs to be cared for in Newcastle thought that they made a reasonably sound case for should be cared for with exactly the same energy, enthusiasm doing so: from each according to his abilities, to each and compassion as a child anywhere else in the United according to his needs, as I am sure I remember Kingdom. The money should follow the need. That is Mrs Thatcher and Sir John Major saying when making not the Government’s direction of travel. What they are this point, although memory plays tricks as we grow doing is fundamentally wrong—their broader journey older. The assumption is of course that the rateable is wrong, and what we are discussing today is a small values for business, which are the foundation of the signpost on the wrong way. business rate, are regularly revalued. No more money is The Government’s new mechanism for funding local raised by revaluation, but the distribution of the burden authorities, the business rate retention scheme, makes is fairer throughout the whole of what is a United provision for a safety net, which is used to top up the Kingdom. It would be wrong to defer a revaluation for funds of those authorities that have encountered a political reasons, because doing so disadvantages the reduction of more than 7.5% in business rate income. It relatively less wealthy parts of England—it is more is funded, rather illogically, by a levy on those authorities accurate to say England in this context, rather than the that see an increase in their business rate income beyond United Kingdom. a set threshold. Personally, I do not agree with any of The Government have also altered the duty on the that—a minority view, I know—and I will explain why Department to make a revenue support grant to a later. For now, I will focus on the seemingly technical power to make a revenue support grant. The purpose is subject of today’s debate. to march off in exactly the same direction that is of The Department for Communities and Local concern to me and my hon. Friend the Member for Government put aside £25 million to fund the safety net Newcastle upon Tyne Central. That will weaken the for the current 2013-14 financial year, but the Government link between the need, which local authorities have a have now revealed that this is not enough and that they statutory duty to meet, and the resources, which are are seeking to increase it by an additional £95 million, necessary to meet the need. She talked about the new making a total of £120 million, which is a substantially homes bonus, and the Chairman of the Select Committee, larger sum. The Government propose, in effect, to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East top-slice or hold back that money from the 2014-15 (Mr Betts), intervened to make a point along the same local government finance allocation, even though councils lines. All of that is heading in the same direction, and it have begun to draw up their budgets for 2014-15, with is very much the wrong direction. some already out to consultation. The city of Newcastle upon Tyne is on the receiving If we consider the practicalities of consulting on a end of all this, and if I have done nothing else in my budget that is being squeezed year on year and the short contribution, I hope I have rammed home to the context that the needs that that budget has to meet are Minister how strongly we in the city feel about this not heading in the same direction, we realise how unjust issue, how unfair it is that he should proceed in this way what the Government are doing is. Councils are not and how impossible the situation will be for the local only faced with revised settlements, but have the prospect authority that represents people in the constituencies of additional cuts so that the Department can meet that my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon what it believes to be its internal budgetary needs. Tyne Central and I represent, as well as other inner-city However, as my hon. Friend pointed out, it is not local authorities throughout England, if the Government entirely clear that those needs are as the Department continue in the same direction. states them to be. The Minister must do something—a range of options The impact of taking money from the revenue support are open to him—to make sure that the support payments grant is that the Government are reducing the proportion available to local authorities meet the needs to which of money subject to funding formulas that account for those authorities have a statutory duty to respond. To need and deprivation. By reducing the revenue support do anything else is unfair because local authorities have grant to top up the business rate redistribution mechanism, no other way of getting the money to meet those needs. in effect, the total amount of local authority funding that has been subjected to adjustments for deprivation, 3.11 pm need and other factors is being lowered. That is fundamentally unfair. The need is there, and the money Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure should follow the need. Consequently, deprivation factors to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter, for what are weakened within the totality of the local government I think is the first time—certainly in my role as Opposition finance settlement. With many local authorities facing spokesman on local government matters, including local increased costs and demand for statutory services, factors government funding, which I shall talk about today. 225WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 226WH

[Andy Sawford] and the rate is higher in her area, as we might expect because of the nature of her community. Clearly, it My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon compounds the problem when such a significant cut is Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) opened the debate by meted out to her local authority. saying how important it was for her constituents. I My hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and congratulate her on securing it, and I thank her for Saddleworth spoke passionately, as she always does, doing so, because my constituents are also concerned about social care. She talked about how the cut in the about local services. Earlier today, I met 25 members of independent living fund is impacting people in her the University of the Third Age, from Thrapston, a community. Not only are local authorities meeting only small town in my constituency, and the topic of conversation severe needs, but they are being forced to reassess was the impact of various funding cuts on their lives. elderly and vulnerable constituents who were previously They talked about having to pay £6 a week for the considered to have severe needs, and are beginning to Lifeline service in sheltered accommodation, which was withdraw the services that those people had come to previously paid for out of the Supporting People funds. rely on, leaving them incredibly worried. In some cases, They also talked about the impact on their communities that has perverse consequences. Local authority social of further cuts to bus services. My county council has care cuts are causing hospitals to use acute hospital reduced the subsidy for local authority bus services by budgets to fund social care beds. Surely the Government more than any other county council. My constituents cannot see that as a good use of public money. said, “What is the point of a bus to a nearby town if I can’t get back from it?” Debbie Abrahams: My hon. Friend is making a passionate My constituents also spoke about the isolation that speech himself. These measures are having an impact on they experience as elderly people. They talked of their not only local authority services, but the NHS. As we concerns about their grandchildren’s school transport know, we have an accident and emergency crisis across costs. They highlighted the impact of cuts to police the country, and that is partly because of the impact on community support officer funding in their small market social care. town, which have happened partly because local authorities can no longer fund partnerships. My constituents are Andy Sawford: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. also concerned—my hon. Friend mentioned this—about She has considerable expertise in these matters, and I potholes and cuts to funding for other things that they have heard her speak frequently about them in the main see every day, such as street lights. This is therefore an Chamber. In my area, the A and E crisis, which means incredibly important debate. that many people have to wait more than four hours, is happening because the hospital is running “hot”. I do My hon. Friend said the Government’s changes to not know whether you have heard that term in relation local government funding fundamentally impact the to your local hospital, Mr Streeter, but it means that the spirit and ethos of how public services are funded, and I beds are full, and that is partly because there are no wholeheartedly agree. She spoke passionately about the social care beds. The services that should help people to unfairness of the cuts, as did other hon. Members, return home are not being put in place properly or including my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle quickly enough to do that. These things are very much upon Tyne East (Mr Brown). He said that, in his linked, and I hope the Minister will acknowledge that in 30 years in this place, he has not seen anything handed a way that other Conservative Members have failed to down to communities that is as unfair as these local do in some of our debates on health care, and on the authority cuts, which are particularly impacting on his impact of local authority funding cuts on a much city. They are also impacting on Oldham, the local broader range of public services. authority of my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham We have quoted Sir Merrick Cockell, the LGA’s East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams). Conservative leader, who has called the cuts “unsustainable” My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon because of their scale and pace and the rising demand Tyne Central drew on comments from the Conservative we have highlighted. The Conservative leader of Kent leader of the Local Government Association, so it is county council has also said that his county cannot not just Opposition politicians who are raising concerns. cope with further reductions, and that it is “running on Sir Merrick Cockell said that the cuts were having a empty”. disproportionate impact on some areas of the community. Ministers know that local government is the most Recently in the House, the hon. Member for Cambridge efficient part of the public sector—the Prime Minister (Dr Huppert) said that his local authority and many has said so—but they have decided to reward councils other local authorities around the country were being for that efficiency by cutting more from them than from “cut to the bone”, but the Government have failed to any other part of the public sector. Indeed, the Secretary recognise the very real impact that the cuts are having. of State for Communities and Local Government I was struck by the summative description of the cuts approached the Star Chamber to bid for that substantial that my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon cut to local authority funding. Tyne Central gave: she said that they were Robin Hood The Institute for Fiscal Studies is clear that the total in reverse. My right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle cuts to local government spending will outpace those in upon Tyne East simply suggested that their impact was the public sector as a whole, and the situation will get wicked. It is not just that funding is being cut. As we all worse, not better. The LGA’s excellent report, “Future recognise, this is a time of rising pressures. In particular, funding outlook for councils”, incorporates the 10% Members have talked about the costs of dealing with cut in this year’s spending review, which comes on top looked-after children. My hon. Friend the Member for of the 33% cut that councils face over this Parliament, Newcastle upon Tyne Central highlighted the 11% growth and that includes the issue of holdbacks, which I will in the number of looked-after children across the country, come to in more detail. 227WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 228WH

The Minister will no doubt tell us that there has been there will find themselves in particular difficulty. It is a 2.6% cut—I hear those figures all the time, and I one of the poorest regions in the country, and my right heard them again on “Look East” just the other day. At hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East the same time, the leader of Norfolk county council was and my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon talking about what, by anybody’s measure, was a cut of Tyne Central are to be congratulated on highlighting a third to the council’s budget. Councils simply do not the impact on their region, as the Association of North recognise this 2.6% figure; it does not stand up to East Councils has also done very powerfully. scrutiny. Councils all around the country will be affected. We The black hole will get bigger: by 2020 there will be a are told that Tory-led West Somerset will be one of the £15-billion black hole in the finances, but the Secretary first councils that will have to close its doors and will of State talks about council cuts as though they are simply not be able to balance the books. As I understand modest. I do not think that it surprises any of us when it, there is an idea that such councils will be taken over Conservative council leaders raise complaints with the by their neighbours. I think that that is the Government’s Prime Minister about the language being used, and the way forward: the neighbours will step in. However, reality gap between how Ministers at the Department although I am a co-operator, I must say that when faced for Communities and Local Government talk about the with a neighbouring authority that is about to fall over, level of the cuts, and council leaders’ experience of it would not be prudent of any hon. Member to encourage trying to deliver public services around the country. I their own local authority to take on the burden of have spoken to the leader of Northamptonshire county financial responsibility. The crisis has been created by council. He is a Conservative politician, but we have a central Government, and they must face up to it and tell constructive dialogue about how we are grappling with us what their response might be. huge changes. For example, he is currently scratching his head about how we will sustain Sure Start and Chi Onwurah: I thank my hon. Friend for the excellent children’s centre provision across the county, and how speech he is making; he is highlighting several points we will continue to provide libraries across a large that I did not cover. Is he aware that when the Secretary county. of State acceded to his post, he is said to have banned Leaders of any party know the reality out there, but the use of the word “regionalism” because he did not the Government will not listen to the warnings. They believe in regions? He wanted instead to focus on localism will not listen to the National Audit Office, which has and localities. Is it not therefore ironic that, by cutting said that cuts are having a direct impact on front-line funding so much and taking control of more of it services. The myth created in the early days of the centrally, he might cause local authorities to be taken coalition—that everything could be achieved through over by other local authorities, thus attacking the efficiencies—simply does not match up to reality. The communities he is supposed to be supporting? NAO says that 12% of councils are at risk of being unable to balance their books. That will have disastrous Andy Sawford: My hon. Friend is right that the sense consequences. of regional awareness in places around the country is The Minister told me in a written answer last week derived from all sorts of things. Sometimes it is economic that a response to the Public Accounts Committee or cultural connectedness going back over time, or report on the financial sustainability of local authorities derives from the links between industry across an area. had been published in September. I cannot find that However, in some areas of the country, over time, some response, and would be grateful if he could draw my of that sense of regional awareness has come from attention to it more directly. It seems that the Government regions feeling that the further away from London they simply do not know how they will respond when councils are, the less the Government are concerned about the fall over. The permanent secretary to the Department people there, and the more unfairly they have been for Communities and Local Government, when questioned treated. I am a strong supporter of the Better Together by the Public Accounts Committee, said that councils campaign. I hope that Scotland and England remain have a duty to balance their books. Ministers are relying together, as do many of my Scottish constituents. However, on a statutory duty in the face of reality. it was not a huge surprise to me to see only the other day a newspaper article saying, “If Scotland goes, can Of course, we know that councils will do their very you take the north with you?” People in the north feel best, because they will want to ensure that they comply that the Government simply do not understand the with the law. They will be well advised by their monitoring impact of the cuts. officers and finance officer. Councillors will want to balance the books. They will know that that will be Communities are told to become more independent; audited by the new independent local auditor, so they the rationale that the Government present to us is that will have to do it—and we know how they will do it: by they are over-reliant on central Government funding. turning off the street lights; by further cutting social Communities are seeking to become more independent care; by ending the use of the local swimming pool; by by promoting their economies. What do the Government closing the libraries; and by stopping maintaining the think is happening to the economic development function streets. If they have to, against the Secretary of State’s of local authorities around the country? What do the best wishes, they will do it by stopping some bin collections, Government think has happened in the absence of the which will affect our recycling rates. They will do it by strong role that One North East previously played in cutting services around the country. promoting economic development in the north-east? That strong economic development role, that drive that Some councils will find more quickly than others that local authorities can provide, is no longer there as it they need to balance the books. They will not be councils once was. I pay tribute to people such as the leader of in the north of England only, although many councils Newcastle city council, Nick Forbes, for trying to ensure 229WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 230WH

[Andy Sawford] removed any enforcement of the protections afforded to those people. They have less money in their pockets and that his city has a bright and economically prosperous are less able to contribute to the local community, future, but the Government are making that task harder, thereby compounding the problems that local authorities and I hope they recognise that. face in their community leadership role around the The impact of the cuts falls on both statutory and country. That has been the impact of the Government’s non-statutory services. Too often it is assumed that proposals. We simply would not have done things in the statutory services will be safe, as it is by the permanent same way, and we would not have done things in such a secretary to the Department, who says that because it is fundamentally unfair way. written in law that councils have to balance the books, it It is not just organisations such the Association of will happen. Too often it is also assumed—by campaigning North East Councils Association of North East Councils organisations and commentators on local authority or SIGOMA, the special interest group of municipal finance—that statutory services will continue to be authorities—SIGOMA provided us with a helpful provided and will be safe because they are a legal background briefing, for which I am grateful—making requirement. However, the truth is that councils are this point. The Audit Commission, which provides already having to look at the eligibility criteria. For independent commentary, has highlighted the unfairness, example, the duty placed on local authorities in the stating that 1960s to provided for an efficient library service will “councils in the most deprived areas have seen substantially have to be interpreted in new ways by local authorities greater reductions in government funding as a share of revenue in future. Frankly, it will have to be interpreted in ways expenditure than councils in less deprived areas.” that do not meet local communities’ real aspirations for In 2014-15, the 10 most deprived local authorities in those services. England will lose six times more than the 10 least We know that statutory services will not be safe, and deprived local authorities, as compared to 2010-11. The we also know that the burden will fall particularly on councils that will suffer the biggest cuts in spending the more discretionary services. However, the discretionary power per head—that is the Government’s own manipulated services, such as cultural services, are no less important. measure, which is designed to mask the real impact—are Over the river from my right hon. Friend the Member Liverpool, Hackney, Newham, Manchester, Knowsley, for Newcastle upon Tyne East, and my hon. Friend the Blackpool, Tower Hamlets, Middlesbrough, Birmingham Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central, in Gateshead, and Kingston upon Hull. Those are some of the most there are iconic cultural attractions, as indeed there are deprived communities around the country. I would add in Newcastle upon Tyne. As a student at Durham Newcastle to that list, as another deprived community; university, I enjoyed the cultural offer in Newcastle there are particular needs in Oldham as well. Those many times. These things are vital to local economies communities should be properly recognised in a fair and to the health and vibrancy of the community. They funding formula. are part of what a prosperous community in the 21st century My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon should be all about. Local authorities have a vital role Tyne Central points out that her region—although, as in enabling such things and ensuring that they are she said, the Government do not like that term—has present in a community, but we know that around the endured the biggest cuts. There are communities with country they will be the first to go. high levels of deprivation and particular needs in London, We must be honest about what would have happened and some of the most deprived wards in the country are were a Labour Government now in power, as we come in the heart of Corby in the midlands, but when we look out of a period of global recession. Resources were at the map of the impact of these measures across the rightly used to help keep young people in work—for country, it is clear that money is going from north to example, through the future jobs fund—to keep our south, and from poorer to more affluent areas. The vital industries going, and to keep people in their homes Prime Minister’s local authority, West Oxfordshire, is to avoid the scandal of home repossessions that we saw one of the least deprived in the country, ranking 316th in Conservative recessions in previous decades. The out of 325 in the indices of multiple deprivation. It is Government rightly tried to maintain jobs and the getting an increase in spending power of 3.1%; that is economy. A Labour Government would have come into extraordinary. We know that this is not an accident, but a period, in this Parliament, in which we would need to a deliberate strategy by the Government to shift funding. look at how to balance the books. Our proposals differ The problem is compounded by holdbacks, which my very much from the Government’s. The Government’s hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne proposals have gone far too far and go about things in Central rightly raised as having a further significant the wrong way. Front-loading has had a particular unfair impact on particular local authorities. That is impact, resulting in, for example, the perverse problems partly, as we know, because of the impact of the new we have described in our health services. homes bonus. Above all, however, we know that the effect of the The cut to local government in the 2015-16 spending Government’s proposals over three years was to grind settlement appears to be around 5% greater than the the economy to a halt. We are told that there has been a amount stated in the spending round of 2013. The huge increase in private sector employment. Many of Local Government Association’s analysis is that there those private sector jobs are transfers from the public will be a 15% real reduction for most local authorities, sector, because of the cuts in recent years. Where they as opposed to the 10% claimed by the Government; the are genuine private sector jobs—indeed, where they are analysis by SIGOMA and others is that the real impact public sector transfers—we often find that people are will be higher. Will the Minister at least accept the on zero-hours contracts, employed through agencies in analysis of the cross-party Local Government Association, insecure jobs on low wages. The Government have which has no particular political axe to grind? 231WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 232WH

The Government’s announcement on funding with nearly a year ago, so I estimate that the figure will now regard to holdbacks has caused particular issues because be higher than three in 10. Given those challenges, does of the scale and pace of the increase in the number of the Minister really think it is prudent to ask local holdbacks announced for 2015-16. The original figure authorities to budget on that basis? for the new homes bonus was £800 million of holdback; I believe that there is hope. If there is a change of I understand that remains the same. The holdback for Government in 2015, there will be an opportunity to the safety net around business rates was originally proposed make a reality of community budgets and Total Place, to be £25 million, but the revised proposal is that it will and to end the silo approach to local authority funding—for now be £120 million. I understand that there are additional example, in relation to care services. We can genuinely holdbacks on capitalisation as well. The net effect of integrate services to make the public pound go further. the changes is to add £180 million to the holdbacks. We will back local authorities in taking on new roles—in The Select Committee on Communities and Local back-to-work schemes, for example—that could be both Government looked at the issue recently, and said that financially beneficial to the local authority, if the incentives holdbacks were making it impossible for councils to set are right, and beneficial to our communities. There are budgets. As local authorities are having to make incredibly opportunities for much better dialogue. We need to tough decisions, consultation is even more important, review the new homes bonus, which is a mechanism to but giving short notice of the huge cuts in funding shift resources around the country in an unfair way. I makes it really difficult for local authorities to hold hope that today the Minister will accept the scale of the genuine consultations with communities. crisis that his Government have created, and will give us assurances that they will listen to us on holdbacks and The increase in the amount retained for the safety net will accept the real need to review the funding formula for business rates from £25 million to £120 million has across the country, so that when the provisional settlement caused particular concern. At a recent hearing of the is announced in just a few weeks’ time, it is fairer. Select Committee, the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler) described the safety net increase as “a huge jump”, and said that arguments that all the 3.37 pm money would ultimately be returned to local government TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities did not make sense, asking: and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): It is a pleasure “How can councils budget when decisions like this are being to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, made?” Mr Streeter. I congratulate the hon. Member for Newcastle Remember, that comes from a Conservative member of upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) on securing a debate the Committee. on a matter that is clearly important for her. It gives us the chance to air some important issues about local I understand that Sir Bob Kerslake, the permanent government more generally. secretary at the Department, said that the holdbacks Before I turn directly to the subject of the debate, I represented “relatively small amounts” of the £25 billion want to put it in context. The shadow Minister commented total funding for local government. He uses that global on the size of local government, its funding and the figure deliberately to massage the appearance of this changes in funding. He made a comment about going issue and make it seem less significant. Some district too far and too fast, which we have not heard for some councils—I know that they are exotic things to some time from the Opposition. That comment seems incredible hon. Members, but I have two in my area—will face in the light of the current economic situation, as the cuts of £300,000 to £400,000 because of these changes. Government’s economic policy is clearly working for That is not a modest amount; it is a huge amount from the benefit of the country. their overall budget. We also have to remember exactly how we got to Similarly, the Select Committee asked why councils where we are. The previous Government left us with an were given only three months’ notice of the additional unprecedented deficit, something this Government are 20% cut. I will quote the hon. Member for South having to deal with. Local government accounts for Derbyshire again: she said that it “just does not fly”. Is 25% of public expenditure, and so has a big part to play the Minister going to tell us today that it does fly, or will in those efforts. Unfortunately, that is a part of the he agree that the situation is unfair and has compounded legacy that we took on from the previous Government. the problem that local authorities face? Even today, we are still all wondering about the Does the Minister accept that councils must plan and £52 million—and growing—cuts that Labour has stated set their budgets for 2015-16 on the basis of a cut in that it would make to local government; despite what funding of 15%? The Government say that councils can the shadow Minister said, Labour has not yet outlined set their budgets based on taking a risk—although all where those cuts would come from, and the figure has the risk seems to me to be shifted on to local authorities, continued to go up in some of its recent pledges. We given the way the holdbacks are handed out—that the have to put the situation in some context. holdback may be 10%. Does the Minister seriously think that that would be a prudent way for a local Mr Nicholas Brown: I do not accept the Minister’s authority to manage its budget? We know from the analysis, but for the purposes of debate, I will give him work of the National Audit Office that even before the the benefit of the doubt. If what he says is right, why is cuts really bite, as they will this year and for the next the burden of expenditure reduction not being shared two years, three in 10 councils have had to take in-year fairly across England? If special measures to protect unexpected action to try to balance their books. They anyone should be taken, why are they not being taken to have had to reduce service levels, for example, and have protect the very poorest and most vulnerable—the people had recruitment freezes and emergency renegotiation of whom local authorities have a statutory duty to look contracts with their providers. The NAO’s review was after? Why is the burden not being shared fairly? 233WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 234WH

Brandon Lewis: I will come to the issue outlined by year and we are protecting individual council tax payers the right hon. Gentleman, but I remind him that the by offering a council tax freeze. We are protecting independent report, which is in the Library, outlined councils through the rates retention scheme’s safety net, that this year’s settlement was fair to areas in the north which generates a minimum level for their baseline and south, rural and urban. It is important to remember funding, which Newcastle will benefit from, although it the legacy that we inherited. My area—Great Yarmouth—is was unable to do so previously. in the east and, thanks to the previous Government’s The settlement is fair because even for councils like policy decisions, was left with a £3 million black hole, mine, which now benefits from the efficiency support which this Government have had to fix. When we talk grant, we have provided protection for those who were about spending power, we must remember that a Labour hit worst by the policy decisions of the previous Government left my local authority with what would Government, and that brings me to the important point have been a 20% cut in spending power in one year— of how the system now works in a council’s favour. something this Government have had to deal with. Following the Localism Act 2011 and financial reforms The hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) mentioned to the settlement, 70% of an authority’s income is raised councils such as West Somerset. He might like to do a locally and, most importantly, the growth incentive bit more research and homework on what is going on in ensures that local government will keep up to 50% of all West Somerset and look at the work it is doing with its the growth that it generates. Councils have more power neighbours, on which I congratulate it. More and more than ever before, but they must understand the implications. small district authorities are moving to ensure that They must act in their residents’ best interests and work money on the front line is not spent on bureaucracy and hard on their behalf. Redesigning council tax benefit to red-tape administration. Many small district authorities cut fraud, which costs around £2 billion, promoting particularly have budgets of under £20 million and local enterprise and getting people back into work, or should be looking to share management and chief executives redesigning services to make them more efficient and to ensure that their taxpayers’ hard-earned money is sustainable, especially as there are still savings to be had spent on the services that we all want and not on across the sector, all make a difference. bureaucracy and red tape. It is logical for authorities to Some cutting-edge councils understand that and lead do that. Instead of using childish language such as by example in developing good practice for the rest of “takeover”, Labour Members should realise that this is the country to follow. Getting the ball rolling can be the about working in partnership and with efficiency for the hardest part of radically overhauling local services. The benefit of local people. Government established the transformation challenge It is important to understand that there has been a award to help councils, particularly small ones, to landmark change for local government this year. After demonstrate innovation, to protect services and to reduce years of doffing their caps to Whitehall, all councils costs to the taxpayer. Just a few months ago, I was now have the ability to control their own destiny. In the pleased to announce 18 successful schemes, including midst of the clamour of deficit denial and doom-mongering projects to accelerate the integration of local health and from some people, that message is in danger of not care services, which hon. Members have outlined this being heard. The size of the deficit and the debt must be afternoon, and to create shared finance and human dealt with, and local government is one of the biggest resources for emergency services. players in the public sector. The £3.8 billion that is coming across from the health I want to make it clear to hon. Members that the service to be part of the local government family to current settlement and the one that we will soon propose provide adult social care is an indication of the work for 2014-15 are fair to all—the north and the south—as that follows on from the community budget pilots. That the Library outlined. The hon. Member for Newcastle transformation touches on the point that the hon. Member upon Tyne Central referred to what will happen next for Corby made and is an important way to bring the year, and I hope that she appreciates that we are only a public sector together and to drive out duplication and couple of weeks from next year’s assessment, so she will provide better services. We know from the community not have to wait long for the details. budget pilots that up to £20 billion of savings can be found across the public sector if we can get the work Chi Onwurah: I urge the Minister to focus on the key done correctly throughout the country. More importantly, point of this debate, which is that money is being held they have shown better services for residents and more back from local authorities and redistributed. He said effective service delivery. that local authorities can take their destiny into their own hands and drive forward, but that necessitates Debbie Abrahams: Will the Minister undertake on imposing no such holdbacks in future. Will he confirm behalf of his Department to publish information about that? the impact of the reductions on funding to local authorities and on services? Brandon Lewis: The hon. Lady’s point highlights where we are. The current structure for local government Brandon Lewis: The whole point of the change in the is that councils will benefit and see their income rise as a structure of local government finance is that council reward for the good work that they do for their communities. finance is partly in councils’ control. That is why I will touch on that directly. 40 authorities have had an increase in their income this Manchester, Liverpool and Newcastle all have higher year alone. Today, a Labour authority has predicted a spending power per dwelling than the national average. £500,000 increase in its income over the next couple of When talking about what local areas have, it is important years, thanks to the business rate retention scheme. to put that in the context of the starting point. The Hon. Members should focus on their councils’ decisions average reduction in spending power is only 1.3% this on what services they provide locally. Some £3.8 billion 235WH Local Authority Funding3 DECEMBER 2013 Local Authority Funding 236WH is going to local councils to ensure that they can deal also worth noting that local authorities have managed with adult social care in a joined-up way, without to increase reserves to a record level, going up by almost creating further bureaucracy. £3 billion to £19 billion. With that and the £2 billion in Local government has shown great skill in moving fraud and error, and with a further £2 billion in uncollected forward. The Audit Commission and a recent survey council tax, there is still a long way for local authorities noted that residents believe that services have improved. to go before they can claim that they have done everything Our community and neighbourhood budgets show that to drive out waste and bureaucracy. we are finding ways to rewire the system to provide We are in a new world for local government. The better services at much lower cost. funding settlement used to be the endgame; now, it is Turning to the future, I recognise that councils are just the starting point, with councils no longer tied to facing pressures. That is why the spending review set out the settlement figures. They can get to earn their keep a package of measures to support them in 2015-16, and retain £11 billion of business rates. That could including the £3.8 billion pool of funding for integrated deliver an extra £10 billion to our wider economy. It is health and social care, which will help to ensure that worth noting that areas such as Manchester, Liverpool services in the care and support system can be protected and Newcastle all saw business rates rise above the and will enable authorities to invest in prevention and national average of 4.8% in recent years. However, early intervention. thanks to the old begging bowl system, they missed out on the opportunity of making the most of that money—but We will make available a new fund of £330 million to no longer. From now on, it will be what councils make accelerate the transformation of local services with a and not what they take that counts. If they bring in £200 million extension of the troubled families programme more businesses, more jobs and more homes, they will to support another 400,000 families, £100 million to be rewarded. If they build those new homes through the build on the transformation challenge award to improve new homes bonus, they will see a share of that money, public service delivery and a further £30 million to drive which is worth £650 million this year and is growing. If change in the fire and rescue service. All that together they increase their business rates, they will retain some shows that there is a huge opportunity for councils to of the benefit of that increase. save money and to achieve better outcomes by working collaboratively and innovatively for their communities. Therefore, the message to councils is clear: if they are ambitious, become self-reliant and work hard on behalf Chi Onwurah: The Minister avoided answering the of their local people, they will succeed and see the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for benefits. We want authorities to go further and faster, Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) about so that residents feel those benefits. We want to help the impact of the funding changes on different councils and reward those who do the right thing and are innovative. in the north and south by re-emphasising the power Our funding approaches, as has been outlined that local authorities and councils have to direct their independently, are fair for north and south, urban and own funding. Will he specifically say whether he supports rural, and rich and poor. I gently say to hon. Members the principle of holding back funding, as has been who have outlined what they see as the funding draw described in several contributions this afternoon? He from urban areas that even Labour Front Benchers has listed some increases in some different funds. Are have been arguing on the Floor of the House to move they coming from top-sliced funding or from new money, money away from urban areas into rural areas. as we would understand it? Andy Sawford: Will the Minister say which Labour Brandon Lewis: I tell the hon. Lady again that what a Front Benchers have been making that argument? local council does with its funding is a matter that she must put to her local authority. Councils must make the Brandon Lewis: The hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the decisions about how they spend the money that they hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman- have. There is no point continuing to look at silo pots of Woods), made that point in a petition in the House just money. The point of spending power is that it shows a couple of weeks ago, in pushing to have that gap exactly what a local council has in total to spend on its between urban and rural moved more towards rural local community. In Newcastle, the amount is one of areas. the highest in the country. It is also why it is important that we offer support to people individually as well. We Andy Sawford: I inform the Minister that I also put a are pleased to be able to offer further support for petition from local residents in the Speaker’s petition council tax freezes in 2014-15 and 2015-16. We have bag, as did many hon. Members of all parties in representing been clear that if an authority wants to raise its council their constituents. However, the Labour Front-Bench tax, it should do so with the assent of the public in a team’s position was clearly set out, as the Minister is referendum locally. It needs to be able to explain to very well aware, only a few weeks ago in the debate residents what it wants that money for and to convince relating to SPARSE—the Sparsity Partnership for residents of its case. Authorities delivering Rural Services. We were clear It is worth adding that in many cases, councils have that we see the current formula as fundamentally unfair. more in reserves than they are losing through cutbacks. Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds all have reserves that Brandon Lewis: I gently say to the hon. Gentleman are twice that of their spending power reductions. Indeed, that the hon. Member for City of Durham was in the this year, Newcastle has had substantial reserves. It is Chamber on the night giving in her petition, in which also important to note that local authorities will be the case that was being made was not about having spending about £4 billion extra this year across the more money, but about ensuring a different distribution country—well over the £100 billion of last year. It is between rural and urban areas, but I shall let him take 237WH Local Authority Funding 3 DECEMBER 2013 238WH

[Brandon Lewis] Government Contracts that up with her, rather than me. She was the one who Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Wenowmoveonto was making the case to move the money to rural away our next debate. Our participants are here, so anyone from urban, so I suspect that the Labour party has wanting a second go on the previous debate will not get some work to do with its own Members. it. It is an important debate on managing Government We now ensure that the system rewards innovation contracts—I shall speak slowly so that the Minister has and imagination, as we saw this year with the transformation a chance to get to his position. It is a delight to call Meg fund. We have given councils more power than they Hillier. have had before, and we are developing a new ethos for local government, where they are generating more income through the work that they do locally, rather than 3.54 pm holding out a begging bowl to central Government. If councils are willing to look to the future, they have a Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ once-in-a-generation chance to step out from Whitehall’s Co-op): As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your shadow and to use the income from local growth to chairmanship, Mr Streeter. Before I start, I need to support, develop and improve the services that they give declare an interest: my husband is a non-executive their residents. director of a social enterprise that runs some Government contracts. However, the focus of my concern is small and medium-sized enterprises, and I am delighted to have secured this debate on their behalf. My interest in the issue stems from my work as a member of the Public Accounts Committee and from my many conversations with businesses in my constituency and elsewhere. The Minister will be aware of the Committee’s work and particularly our hearings on 20 and 25 November. I do not intend to cover the same ground in this debate, as he will have the pleasure of reading the Committee’s report shortly. I want to focus mostly on how Government contracts work for small and medium-sized businesses. As our hearings demonstrated, there are a few large companies that have a grip on the delivery of public sector contracts. Whether they run prisons, maintenance, security or hospital services, relatively few prime contractors are in the market for business that both recent Governments have embraced, worth billions of pounds a year. Government talk the talk about supporting small businesses, but unless they are willing to lead from the front, the promises, frankly, ring hollow. As the MP for Shoreditch—often called “tech city”—I do not need to be convinced that small and medium-sized enterprises are the engine room of UK plc’s future growth. It is not only me who is saying that; the Chancellor of the Exchequer declared that tech city “will be the technology centre of Europe”. There is no shortage of private investors either who are prepared to bet their money on these businesses. However, those innovative businesses face different hurdles when it comes to Government contracts. The hurdles set by civil servants, most of whom, as I am sure the Minister will acknowledge, have never run a business, big or small—that is not intended as a criticism; it is just a fact—are so cumbersome that most small businesses cannot comply with them. The automatic setting in Government is to be as risk averse as possible, and that sets in train in contracting a vicious and uncompetitive circle that is well-nigh impossible for new businesses to break into. Of course, I share a desire, as I am sure the Government do, to make sure that the taxpayer is not taking on undue risk, but balance is needed. Some of the innovative tech businesses in Shoreditch, such as the recent arrival, Affinitext, which is offering transformational software for smart document reading, can offer solutions that will save the taxpayer money. 239WH Government Contracts3 DECEMBER 2013 Government Contracts 240WH

Many work in ways that the Government could learn the Major Projects Authority are welcome, but improving from, but businesses that do not meet the Government’s contract management and procurement skills just is not pre-determined model of contracting are shut out. enough. Too often we hear of hurdles set by risk-averse There are spin-off benefits, too, for the wider economy civil servants. What about better use of technological that the Government should be aware of. Research solutions to monitor compliance? shows that every £1 of business with an SME generates Just one example of how the Government could learn 63p to the local economy, whereas with large businesses— from the private sector—another one—is suggested by those employing more than 250 people—only 40p is Affinitext, which I have mentioned. Graham Thomson, generated in the local economy. Both are worth aiming managing director of Affinitext, says: for, but for a Government who say they support business, “Electronic, tablet friendly versions of contracts should incorporate the question is whether they only support big business. an agreed rights and obligations matrix, so as to ensure that each We need to see a step change in how Government party performs their obligations in accordance with the contract, work with smaller businesses. Specifically, we need shorter using ‘Just-in-Time’ task reminders.” procurement processes—again, that is the risk aversion That is pretty simple stuff in their world, but Whitehall coming in to play—and a serious step change in how does not yet seem ready to embrace it. contracts are drawn up. When a contract includes 150 The Public Accounts Committee got a thumbs-up key performance indicators, as we heard at the PAC the from the big private sector companies when we called other week, it suggests a serious lack of critical focus. for more transparency, which is another issue for some There also needs to be a sensible approach to how of these smaller companies. In Shoreditch, that is the Government Departments and businesses can meet outside way business is done. It seems that in many respects formal contract negotiations and learn what each has to Whitehall and Ministers are nervous about losing control offer. I think the Minister would have some very exciting of “the message” by encouraging that. I speak as a meetings in Shoreditch if he were able to visit. former Minister with some knowledge of the pressure I will highlight one example. Tribesports, which is a on Ministers. However, as Graham Thomson says, Shoreditch-based business—based in the Cremer business “‘Commercial sensitivity’ issues, if raised in that regard, are centre, just off Kingsland road—provides a social platform definitely more Civil Servant driven than private sector driven. In for sports enthusiasts. Priya Shah, who is responsible any event, they are manageable.” for business development, told me that trying to get All the businesses that we have spoken to on the PAC through to health providers to suggest alternatives to and that I have spoken to in Shoreditch are far less paper leaflets as a way of spreading health messages, in concerned about commercial sensitivity than Government a world of smart phones, was challenging. She said that are. it was I have some specific questions for the Minister. The “impossible to get through to the right contact at the NHS. first is about the length of procurement processes. Why This”— are Government procurement processes so long compared she was referring to providing health advice— with those of other countries? One supplier—I would “requires a modern approach, with everyone spending more and happily talk to the Minister privately about this individual, more time on computers and phones, not reading leaflets.” although I do not think that it is appropriate to name them in this debate—tells me that in the US, Canada, She is only one example. Sweden and New Zealand, procurement of the same Overall, contract management has become unnecessarily product has typically taken seven to 12 weeks compared complicated. The advent of G-Cloud is a help—I was with two and a half years for a Ministry of Justice pleased to welcome an official from G-Cloud to Shoreditch contract that is still not concluded. Many other people not that long ago—although local businesses in Shoreditch have highlighted long, drawn-out or delayed contracts tell me that it is still cumbersome. For many—this is as a major risk. about the language sometimes spoken between Government What is being done to improve how contracts are and businesses—the very word “Government” in front drawn up? Many small businesses, including Fixflo, of a contract suggests a minefield that is hard to navigate which has an online platform for housing maintenance, compared with other sectors, and indeed, other countries and another company, which won a Government health with which they do business. That is the challenge. contract, have highlighted the complexity of contracts Sometimes, it is just a different language that is being and the frequent changes by commissioners as off-putting. spoken, but the Cabinet Office and the Minister are now supposed to be capturing and sharing knowledge Why are Government still demanding that intellectual and best practice within projects, across projects in a property be handed over to Government? Does the Department and across Departments. Cabinet Office have any guidance for Departments about that? Has it seriously addressed the issue? It can be a The Minister has a difficult task. Whitehall is strewn deal-breaker for emerging tech businesses, whose capital with the failed legacies of Cabinet Office Ministers who is often their IP. have promised various versions of joined-up government or Prime Minister enforcer roles—call them what you What are the Government doing to break down will—but who have not been there long enough to see Government contracts into smaller contracts? I know off the interests of the large Whitehall spending that there are some attempts to do that, but as one Departments. I am pleased that the Minister for the company said, Cabinet Office and Paymaster General has been in post “Instead of tending towards single suppliers of IT services, an for a long time. That is an improvement. However, we integrated solution which incorporates smaller companies would know that, in Whitehall and Cabinet, the bigger the help to support the IT sector and innovation. Encouragement budget of the Department, the more clout the Department should be achieved through a credit in the tender scoring process.” has. Initiatives such as the commissioning academy and I hope that the Minister will consider that suggestion. 241WH Government Contracts3 DECEMBER 2013 Government Contracts 242WH

Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure income. That is an example of a hidden barrier that to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I could be avoided if the threshold were for the annual congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important value of the contract, rather than the whole contract debate. She touches on a number of issues. The one that over the longer period. I am not sure whether the I will ask her to comment on is not contract management, Cabinet Office is aware of that. I hope that the Minister but contract monitoring. Does she believe that frequent is. Does it apply to central Government too, and can the contract monitoring is necessary to prove, first and Cabinet Office do anything to tackle it? foremost, best value for the Government? It is fair to say that there has been some progress by both recent Governments in paying contractors much Meg Hillier: My hon. Friend raises an important faster, but late payment can be a big issue for smaller point. Contract monitoring is often more of a box-ticking companies if they are a subcontractor down the line. exercise. When there are 150 key performance indicators, Has the Minister any plans to make it mandatory for it is difficult to know whether someone is watching the large contractors to pay their subcontractors within 30 overall performance of the contract, and sometimes the days of receipt of payment from Government? If the contracts are drawn up in such a complicated way that Government are paying on time, there should be no it is very difficult to shift meaningfully. In the building excuse for that payment not being sent down the line to world, for example, there are attempts by housing the smaller contractors on time as well. I hope that the associations and contractors to partner, so that they Minister can answer that point. work together to acknowledge where there might need to be a change for more improvement. I hope that the During the Olympics, there were some very interesting Minister would acknowledge that there needs to be issues going on with contracts from the public sector. great improvement. The Major Projects Authority is There were scams whereby bidders included local businesses doing some good work in that area, but it deals with the in a bid and then stood them down once they had won. I major projects. Many Government contracts are much do not know whether the Government are aware of that smaller than that, which is one of the big challenges. and what they are planning to do to ensure that it does Building a warship is one thing; letting a small IT not happen in future. It had a big impact on local contract is another. supply chains and, crucially, on small and medium-sized Crucially, all of this—what my hon. Friend talked businesses’ confidence. There is such cynicism out there. about and what I have talked about—cannot just be left If the Minister were able to come to Shoreditch, he to Departments. We know that procurement managers would hear this. There is a desire to take these contracts come in various forms. Some are not very expert. I on. People realise the prize that they bring, but there is remember as a Minister saying to one official who had cynicism about whether they will ever have the chance led two projects that came in ahead of time and under to compete on a level playing field. budget and that delivered very successfully, “What’s That happened during the Olympics. We picked up your next one?” The reply was, “Well, I have to move in on it too late, because clearly there was a very tight order to get my next promotion.” I know that there have deadline for delivery of the Olympics, but I believe that been some attempts to put project managers in place in contracts need to be better audited after they are awarded. Departments, but I would be interested to hear whether We must ensure that promises of local employment and the Minister has an update on that. contracting with certain subcontractors and promises Procurement managers can often prefer the simplicity on pay rates, training provision and so on are delivered of a single supplier, as it can be more complicated to on. Only a post-audit will deliver that. manage several contracts. The Cabinet Office recently— yesterday, I think—advertised its event management I have touched on financial hurdles, but there are contract, welcoming multiple small bidders. I hope that others that I have heard about repeatedly from solvent that will be better than other Government bids and that and successful businesses. When smaller businesses join the Cabinet Office will live up to its promise. I am forces to bid for a contract—often in a creative partnership quoting from the Minister’s own website, which says: and sometimes delivering very good solutions or potentially doing so—they require three years of audited accounts, “We are committed to ensuring that small organisations and which they cannot provide because they have never businesses can compete fairly with bigger companies for our contracts.” worked together before. Even when they are able to get around that by providing projected accounts, they need I see him nodding. I hope that businesses in Shoreditch to spend up to £6,000 on accountancy fees to do that. It take that seriously and that he delivers. is right that due diligence takes place, but could that When contracts are broken up, smaller IT companies hurdle be introduced later in the bidding, when a consortium are often required to partner with bigger players to knows that it is in the running? The up-front costs can meet the risk threshold. That can be a big issue for a easily put off SMEs, whereas big companies can afford supplier’s IP and it adds complexity. For businesses in them much more easily. Shoreditch and particularly the tech businesses, it is a deal-breaker. One company, which had won a health contract, told me: I want to raise one specific issue in relation to local government procurement; I am not sure how this applies “Financial guarantees were required which were impossible for to national Government. Now that councils often join SMEs to reach. For one application we were required to put up a forces to procure for longer contracts—perhaps across bond of £10m which removed small companies immediately from competition, as for a company with a £3m market cap nobody more than one local authority area—those now count will be willing to put up the risk for such a bond. This means that as large contracts, and it is often the case that small small companies are effectively denied the chance of competing in businesses do not meet the requirement that the value of the bid, and stops them…making the jump from small to medium the contract be not more than 25% of their annual sized companies.” 243WH Government Contracts3 DECEMBER 2013 Government Contracts 244WH

Mr McKenzie: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way The matter is extremely important, not least given the once more and for making very powerful points on the state of the public finances and the situation that we procurement aspect. Has she, like me, experienced the inherited. It is important to recognise where we started. reluctance of small and medium-sized businesses in As I think the hon. Lady recognised, what we might call relation to eProcurement—their fear of using that tool the outsourced public service market was entirely dominated to submit tenders online? by large private sector organisations, and small companies had little room to come in and improve the situation. I Meg Hillier: Earlier, I mentioned G-Cloud. That is an recognise a lot of her analysis about how off-putting important innovation, but there needs to be greater and complex the whole concept of bidding for Government confidence building and greater awareness. contracts is for those running a small business, which I have done myself. It is hard enough work as it is without I am not sure whether the Minister has come across having to wander through a swamp of bureaucracy and this, but there were times when I was a Minister when I difficulties. would ask whether anyone had spoken to someone and I would gather that there had been a big consultation, We inherited that situation, which was compounded but later on, when I met some of the people who had by the fact that Government did not know how much been at that, whether from the business sector or they spent with major suppliers. I am glad that the hon. elsewhere—I dealt with procurement in the Home Office Lady referred to the fact that the Minister for the for three years—I discovered that being in a meeting Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, my right hon. was all that happened. Someone sat in a meeting; they Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), has did not actually engage. I think there needs to be really been in post since the start of the process, because that good, positive engagement with businesses, which are has made a great deal of difference. We are trying to keen and willing and have a lot to offer. drive a culture change across the system, and he has been extraordinarily persistent in trying to achieve that. I extend an invitation to the Minister or his senior The results of the work of the Efficiency and Reform officials to come to meet Shoreditch businesses and Group, which we created, have been dramatic. We saved hear from them directly about the barriers that they the taxpayer £10 billion last year alone compared with face. If he does so, he will also learn about a number of 2010, of which £3.8 billion came from commercial areas innovative, user-friendly and cost-effective ways for the and £800 million from better engaging with strategic Government to deliver smarter services. I hope that he suppliers. There was no rocket science involved; the will take that opportunity and spend a thrilling morning Government simply woke up to the fact that we sit on meeting some of the best brains in the country. top of a powerful buying machine, which makes it We know that civil servants’ careers are not enhanced possible to secure much better terms. We can leverage by taking risks, so the safe, risk-averse approach is well our scale to get better value and resolve performance embedded in Whitehall. The Cabinet Office is charged disputes more quickly. with changing that landscape and opening up Government to the small business sector. It is certainly talking the talk, but whether the large-spending Departments will Mr McKenzie: The Minister speaks of the culture deliver is another matter. I look forward very much to change that he is trying to establish. Will he comment the Minister’s response. Shoreditch is listening, and I on the McClelland report and how it has been embraced will be holding him to his words and his Government’s by other parts of the country? promise of more business for the small business. Mr Hurd: We are trying to embrace a culture change. There was a culture of buying big and buying badly in a 4.10 pm very risk-averse way, and we are trying to improve The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd): that—to touch on a point alluded to by the hon. Member It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, for Hackney South and Shoreditch—not least by instilling Mr Streeter—I think for the first time—and to respond much greater commercial capability and confidence in to an important debate. I congratulate the hon. Member the system. A saving of £10 billion in one year is an for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) on important improvement, which is equivalent to about securing the debate, and on presenting it in such a clear £600 per UK household. That is real money, which has and compelling way, rooted in her experience as a real-world impact. Within that, we have been working former Minister responsible for procurement in the hard to improve the procurement processes that the Home Office and a member of the Public Accounts hon. Lady quite rightly criticised. We need to make it Committee. I am reassured by her telling me that my easier and cheaper for firms, particularly smaller ones, reading of the upcoming report will be a pleasure. That to bid for work. will be a first, and I await it with bated breath. In the context of my main responsibilities as Minister The issue that the hon. Lady has raised is enormously for Civil Society, I might add that we are particularly important, and I want to persuade her that the Government, keen that charities and social enterprises feel they have and the Cabinet Office in particular, are absolutely more space and a level playing field on which to compete. committed to trying to open up more space for small The hon. Lady mentioned the length of procurement and medium-sized enterprises to come in and offer the times, and we have cut the length of the average procurement value and the innovation that she has talked about. I do by 40%, which makes the UK faster, we think, than any not want to appear at all complacent, because although of our European neighbours. I am always delighted to we think we have made some good progress, we know hear about specific cases where the procurement process that we are nowhere near where we want to be, considering has been too long and too clunky, but we have taken a the scale of the opportunity. big step in the right direction. 245WH Government Contracts3 DECEMBER 2013 Government Contracts 246WH

[Mr Hurd] not just words; we can now talk about numbers. Since 2010, overall spend from Government with SMEs has Part of the process is improving our commercial increased by £1.5 billion, which is serious money. We capability and confidence at the heart of the civil service, are not concerned simply about the relentless pursuit of so 1,800 officials have already been trained in procurement value for money for the taxpayer. Given the recent and 150 leaders have been through the Major Projects economic circumstances and the search for growth, it is Leadership Academy in Oxford. We need to go much in the interests of the taxpayer and the country that we further, as I have said, and get smarter at managing support growth where it can be generated. As we all performance. For the first time, the Government have know, SMEs are the engine of growth in the economy, allowed past performance to be taken into account so the agenda is extremely important. As she knows, the when bids for new work are evaluated. It is astonishing Government set out an aspiration that 25% of Government that that has not happened before. Suppliers can now be spending should go to SMEs. Although the data are not rated high risk when there are material performance perfect—I would not claim they were—we think about concerns, and we have introduced a new approach for 19% of Government spending is directly and indirectly managing gross misconduct. Our long-term goal remains with SMEs. That is progress. the creation of a vibrant, competitive marketplace. Where bad practice is uncovered, we will crack down on it The hon. Lady talked about IT in particular. I know robustly. We intend to continue to build on the progress she has a specific constituency interest there. We are of the past three years, focusing on commercial capability keen to break down Government contracts in IT into and promoting transparency. smaller sizes, which is essential if we are to capture the value that the SME community can bring. The massive I turn to the meat of the hon. Lady’s contribution on differences in prices between the old suppliers producing behalf of businesses in her constituency. We are absolutely old technology the old way and what can be done now determined to wrestle with some of the challenges, through new technology are absolutely extraordinary. problems and barriers to which she alluded, to make it We are determined to break such contracts open. easier for small businesses to come in, compete and give New presumptions are set against information and those spending taxpayers’ money more choice and more communications technology contracts worth more than access to the innovation that we desperately need. She £100 million and we have published an ICT strategy talked about procurement time, and, as I have said, we that explicitly supports smaller, more disaggregated have reduced the average turnaround time from advert approaches. We have also launched CloudStore. Some to contract award by more than 40% to 100 working 58% of the first £54.5 million spent on CloudStore went days. That is better than France and better than Germany. to SMEs, which benefited from 66% of sales by number. Within that, small procurements can be much quicker, Interestingly, the Foreign Office is a good example of and we are keen to continue to improve. Some progress success; rather than have a single ICT provider, it has has, therefore, been made in that area. split a single contract into three. G-Cloud has around The hon. Lady talked about contract complexity, 1,000 SMEs on it, which have won 66% of contract which I definitely recognise as a problem; the contract awards by number. We have also just announced the with some 150 key performance indicators that she digital services framework, where SMEs constitute 84% mentioned is simply extraordinary. Our next step to try of suppliers. I hope I can assure her that, in that space, to simplify the system and introduce more consistency there are not just words, but genuine achievements to is to release a model contract for services, which sets out point to in creating the frameworks and space for SMEs best-practice contracting approaches and includes a to come in and supply us with innovation and the streamlined performance management regime. potential to add huge amounts of value to the Government The hon. Lady asked about intellectual property, ICT spend. which is of particular interest to technology companies in her constituency, and whether the Government still The hon. Lady mentioned bad practice and sham demanded that intellectual property be handed over to practices in local government. The reach of central them. Our approach is to make that decision on a Government and the Cabinet Office in limiting local case-by-case basis. In the new model service contract, government has limits. We have, however, consulted on ownership of previously existing intellectual property Lord Young’s recommendations on how we can extend rights will stay with the author. If the Government pay some of what we have learnt in central Government and for new IPR to be created, however, in some circumstances make it available for local authorities, so they can it will be appropriate to retain ownership. improve their procurement practice and, in particular, make it easier for SMEs to participate. We shall relentlessly bear down on the need for pre-qualification questionnaires Meg Hillier: I am heartened by what the Minister has below a certain threshold of contract. Contracts Finder said. It would be helpful if people knew the position at has been enormously popular. It contains all opportunities the beginning of the process, because such hurdles are worth more than £10,000. More that 19,000 contracts often added during the bid, which sends a very negative have been published online and 31% of contract awards message around the small business community. have gone to SMEs. For the first time, we have published a contracts pipeline, with £169 billion-worth of contract Mr Hurd: I take that point on board, and I give the opportunities. hon. Lady an undertaking to feed it into the system as we look at the model contract and the best-practice We have set up a mystery shopper scheme to address contracting approaches. She spoke passionately about bad practice and the need to blow a whistle on bad the need to open up more opportunities for SMEs, and processes or notify us when things are not being done in I assure her that we are committed to doing so. She the right way. The scheme allows suppliers to report challenged me to get beyond mere words, and those are poor procurement practice across the public sector. 247WH Government Contracts 3 DECEMBER 2013 248WH

So far, more than 550 cases have been received, of Roaccutane which more than 100 have been successfully resolved in local government. Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): We are ready to Payment terms are enormously important, because move on to our next debate. The protagonist has entered cash flow is everything when running a small business. the Chamber. There is a lot of interest in this extremely The hon. Lady rightly asked about payment terms and serious health matter. As the Minister takes his place, I whether the Cabinet Office plans to make it mandatory am delighted to welcome the hon. Member for North for large contractors to pay their subcontractors within Devon. 30 days of receipt for payment. Yes, is the answer. The Government pay all undisputed invoices within five days. We have mandated prime contractors to pay 4.24 pm subcontractors within 30 days, through the inclusion of Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): It is good, a contract condition in the contracts we write. The new Mr Streeter, to have the opportunity to debate this topic model contract I mentioned will reinforce that, because this afternoon. I have been aware of the issue for a long it is enormously important. We recently consulted on time. Roaccutane raises a lot of understandable passion Lord Young’s recommendation that those contract among those who are directly affected. It is a form of conditions be adopted across the whole of the public the drug isotretinoin, used to treat severe acne and sector. There is a tremendous amount of ambition. manufactured by Swiss pharmaceutical giant Roche. It The hon. Lady talked about the need for post-contract was licensed for use in the UK 30 years ago, in 1983. audits and the need to improve the way we monitor Since then, in the UK alone, it has been implicated in performance. I and the Government acknowledge that. reports of 878 psychiatric disorders, including 44 suspected We want to do more post-contract audit, to focus on suicides. how the contract is performing, supported by much Next month, in January, it will be 10 years since my greater focus on building commercial capability and constituents’ son, Jon Medland, tragically took his own contract management in Whitehall. Too much of the life while studying for a medical degree in Manchester. capability, resource, process and thinking has been directed Having heard of its “miraculous” effects, Jon began at the procurement process, and not at the broader taking Roaccutane to clear a relatively mild case of commissioning process and the need to monitor and acne. Just three and a half weeks later, he died, having work with the supply chain after the contract is awarded, transformed from a successful, outgoing, happy young to ensure that what we bought is being delivered in the man to a withdrawn and depressed individual. Jon had right ways. never suffered from depression. Everything in his case The hon. Lady mentioned some barriers that her points to an adverse reaction to the medicine. As the constituents and others face. She said that, where businesses coroner said: join forces to bid for a contract, they are required to “For a drug to affect a person of a very solid life have three years of audited accounts, which they cannot foundation...deserves further investigation”. provide. We are keen to remove as many barriers as Despite a number of similar cases and mounting scientific possible, so that situation is suboptimal. That is why the evidence, we seem to have lost sight of the precautionary Cabinet Office advises procurers not to request three principle when it comes to Roaccutane. It is impossible years of audited accounts. We would be keen to review for my constituents—Jon’s parents, Pamela and Jonathan, specific cases where such behaviour has occurred. The who are here today—and the other families affected, to mystery shopper service is an opportunity for people, achieve genuine closure while young lives are still at risk and small businesses in particular, to tell us the reality and reports continue to come in. on the ground. The purpose of today’s debate is to call for a thorough With that broad sweep, I hope that I have convinced re-examination of the evidence and an investigation the hon. Lady that our commitment to improve goes into the use of Roaccutane, for stricter guidelines to beyond words. She knows from her time in Government medical professionals on prescribing the drug and for and from the evidence she received on the Committee the Department of Health and the Medicines and that such work is difficult. It is gritty. We are changing Healthcare products Regulatory Agency to show greater culture. We have to bring in new expertise and capability. will in warning of the risks. We have to challenge the system that was frankly not very efficient at managing and spending public money. Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I congratulate For reasons she will recognise, we are determined to my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Sir Nick secure much better value for the taxpayer, and that Harvey) on securing this debate on a subject that has includes making it easier for SMEs in her constituency affected one of my constituents, Mr Derek Jones. Forgive and others to come in and help us with the innovation, me if I am jumping the gun by raising this issue. My value for money and fresh approaches we desperately constituent, Mr Jesse Jones, committed suicide, and need. someone who wrote to Mr Derek Jones after reading an article in The Mail on Sunday related another case. In Meg Hillier: I extended an invitation to the Minister, both cases, the deceased were referred for psychiatric or his officials, to come to Shoreditch. I would be happy treatment after stopping the drug, but because suicide to host them on a useful working visit, if he is interested. occurred after they stopped taking the drug, no warning was given to the right officials. Mr Hurd: That is a delightful invitation. I can tell the hon. Lady on behalf of the Cabinet Office that we Sir Nick Harvey: My hon. Friend makes an would be happy to accept. important point. The point when people are at the greatest risk can be as long as six months after taking 249WH Roaccutane3 DECEMBER 2013 Roaccutane 250WH

[Sir Nick Harvey] of the drug are now available on the US market, has caused the manufacturer to withdraw altogether from the drug. In the case of John Medland, the impact was the US market. swift and profound, but in other cases, it has occurred While we are discussing the attitude of Roche, it is some time later. worth noting that the information in the drug’s packaging includes explicit warnings about the possible psychological Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Is it possible, therefore, side effects, including incidences of suicide. If Roche that there is a link? If the drug is a toxic chemotherapy acknowledges that to the extent of being willing to put agent, it may well have a permanent effect on the brain. it on the information, it seems to be recognising that for Consequently, after the person stops taking the drug, it all the millions who may have used it successfully, a can affect their personality. Could that be the reason? cohort of the population has nevertheless suffered as a result of using the drug. Sir Nick Harvey: My hon. Friend tempts me beyond my limited medical expertise, but the logic of what he is The logical continuum of that is the ultimate withdrawal describing sounds convincing. The other point to be of the drug altogether. Rationally, I do not think that made about the delay in some cases is that the numbers we can ask the Government to move straight to that in on the incidence of suicide and psychotic disorder that I one go, much as I would like them to. Were they to quoted a few minutes ago are highly likely to be gross attempt to go down that path, in no time at all they underestimates. For example, just this morning, I had a would find themselves locked in some sort of litigation telephone call from someone in Cornwall who had with Roche, which would certainly not stand by and heard a morning bulletin on his local BBC radio station watch a major market like the UK ban its product. The referring to this debate. He said that for the first time, court would expect the Government to demonstrate the penny dropped with him. He had attempted suicide overwhelming scientific evidence, which I do not believe and been forced out of the Royal Navy, but he had is available as yet. That is why, as a first step, I am never before put the two things together. With the calling for such scientific research to take place. benefit of many years’ hindsight, he realised that it happened just months after he had used Roaccutane to Caroline Nokes: On my hon. Friend’s point about deal with acne. I therefore think that it is fair to say that calling for the drug to be withdrawn, does he agree with we are looking at numbers far greater than we first the dermatologist in my constituency who sent me an thought. e-mail today saying that it would be a sad day for many thousands of acne sufferers if the drug were withdrawn Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) completely? We desperately need this debate and the (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on this important future to hinge on accurate scientific information. debate. Given that he has said that the number of people affected may have been grossly underestimated, Sir Nick Harvey: I am not entirely sure that I agree. does he agree that what is desperately needed is robust Other treatments for acne are available. I readily scientific investigation and analysis of the numbers and acknowledge that they may not be as effective, but they possible causes, especially as many of the studies are include antibiotics and a variety of other treatments. not very up to date? Unless and until we have some way to predict which people are most likely to suffer catastrophic side effects, Sir Nick Harvey: I entirely agree that a great deal I would prefer on the precautionary principle that no more research is needed. My point in raising the matter one at all took the drug. If we could predict with some with Government through my hon. Friend the Minister certainty—whether by means of genetics or whatever—who is that I cannot see who other than a public authority might be predisposed to such side effects, then and only could initiate or, indeed, fund such research. It is certainly then might it be safe to argue that anyone without such not in the manufacturer’s interest; Roche clings to the a predisposition could safely use the drug, but we are notion that millions of people have been treated with nowhere near that yet. I suffered from acne and was the drug without side effects or mishap. That may be prescribed antibiotics for 11 years or so to deal with it. perfectly true, but it does not alter the fact that, for It is a miserable business—no one would make any those who have suffered a serious side effect, the impact bones about that—but there are other treatments, and has been devastating. I ask again: where is the precautionary the catastrophic consequences for some people of using principle? the drug suggest that we would be better off without it. Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD): What is Roche’s answer to the fact that the drug is more or less banned Richard Drax: On that point, Robyn Cole, who is not in the United States—one must sign a separate my constituent, wrote a moving letter to Mr Jones declaration—and that it is banned in other countries? If saying that the best cure that she had for acne was the drug is totally safe, why do other countries not sunshine, and if only she had been told that initially. On consider it so? the dysfunctions caused by the drugs, Mr Jones wrote in an e-mail to me: Sir Nick Harvey: What has happened in the United “Sexual dysfunction is not included in the patient information States is interesting. As we know, the United States has notes; Roche said that they were not aware of this side effect. But a much more litigious culture than we do in the UK, as one sufferer told me, if they put ‘sexual dysfunction’ in the and the manufacturer there has paid out to a patient on leaflet, no one would take it.” quite a large scale. That patient suffered different side His son was severely affected, and Robyn Cole also tells effects, but the manufacturer nevertheless had to pay me that she is still physically affected some years on, out. That, combined with the fact that generic versions having given up the drug. 251WH Roaccutane3 DECEMBER 2013 Roaccutane 252WH

Sir Nick Harvey: My hon. Friend makes an interesting Sir Nick Harvey: My hon. Friend undoubtedly raises point, and I am sure that he is absolutely right in his a logical loop, but there is the question of time scales, belief that if it were mentioned in the warning notes, the because even a very brief usage of the drug could use of the drug would undoubtedly be greatly reduced, have—as other hon. Members have suggested—quite a as we would want in the interim. lasting impact. I simply do not accept that the horribly Let us look at the available scientific and anecdotal sudden onset of mood swings, paranoia and episodes of evidence that establishes a link between the drug and psychosis can be remotely compared with any feelings the effects that I have described. Roaccutane is a vitamin of lowered self-esteem that might be experienced by A-related compound that has long been known to cause people because they suffer from acne. psychiatric side effects. Reports of users experiencing Jon Medland, my constituent, had no history of depression have continually surfaced, so much so that depression. Similarly, the heartbreaking suicide note of in the USA the Food and Drug Administration forced James Sillcock, who died last year, told how he had Roche to produce safety warnings about Roaccutane as “loved” his life, but it also said that Roaccutane had long ago as 1998. The following year, an Irish study “changed his world completely”. Worryingly, a European found that users of the drug were 900 times more likely Medicines Agency report in 2003 confirmed that to suffer from depressive symptoms than patients being discontinuing the drug may not be enough to alleviate treated for acne with antibiotics. adverse reactions. That was certainly true in a number Although many studies since that time have provided of suicide cases, where young people realised they were limited evidence, they have often been too small to be “not themselves” and stopped the course of treatment, viewed as conclusive. However, I want to mention two only to find themselves falling deeper and deeper into that stand out. First, in 2005, Dr Doug Bremner from depression afterwards, which comes back to the point I Atlanta university published a study using brain imaging was making earlier. before and after four months of treatment with Roaccutane. At the very least, this issue highlights the need for a The images clearly showed an impact on brain function, greater awareness at all levels of the patient’s interaction associating the drug with a decrease in function of the with doctors; direct approaches must be made to monitor frontal lobe—a part of the brain that regulates emotion. the patient’s mental state. Ultimately, we may never Secondly, Dr Sarah Bailey from Bath university undertook know how many people have been affected. Roaccutane studies on young adult mice and rats. When the animals was linked to nine suicide cases between September were put through a “forced swim” test, where they were 2010 and September 2011, but with suicide such a placed in water, those on Roaccutane spent longer being sensitive topic, we can imagine that some victims’ families immobile, without attempting to escape, than those on have not come forward. Indeed, others may not have antibiotics—a change in behaviour consistent with realised the full picture—that the container of depression-related behaviour in the animals. Of course, insignificant-looking pills, kept in the bathroom, for a humans and mice are very different and therefore much few spots could have led someone to take their life in a more research is necessary. However, at the very least state of psychosis. Dr Bailey’s findings should be seen as a caution to It is also worth mentioning again that Roche has doctors prescribing the drug. pulled Roaccutane from the US market. The drug first These studies simply are not enough. It is evident that came on to the market for chemotherapy and then was not everyone who takes Roaccutane develops depression, marketed to a wider audience when its acne-curing but there is clearly a vulnerable population of patients properties became apparent. A number of doctors have who do. Investigations just have not gone far enough to been keen to argue that it is being overprescribed as a find out why that group is vulnerable, but such research first-line treatment; it is only supposed to be used after is vital. Surely, before we lose more young lives to the at least two other medicines have been tried. In 2009, psychological impact of the drug, there is a clear case Dr Tony Chu said: for further study on a larger scale. “You know with Roaccutane you can get patients off your Roche consistently says that it does not know the books in six months rather than go through the mill and try them mechanism by which the drug actually works. Therefore, on a variety of things until you hit on the thing that will actually one might conclude that it is none the wiser about, or work for them...it’s bad medicine.” perhaps is not interested in, how these side effects work. If doctors are doling out Roaccutane with little thought However, one cannot ignore the fact that isotretinoin—I about the bigger picture, they are also ignoring the cannot pronounce it properly—is the only drug not psychiatric risks. designed to affect mental state that features in the USA’s top 10 list of drugs associated with depression. Caroline Nokes: Will my hon. Friend give way? In response to the idea of a link between Roaccutane and depression, many people have suggested that the Sir Nick Harvey: I have an eye on the clock, but I will victims were already depressed because of their acne. give way briefly to my hon. Friend. While acne may indeed reduce self-esteem—many acne sufferers will know what I mean by that—it is an Caroline Nokes: Does my hon. Friend agree that exaggeration to generally describe people who suffer Roaccutane can only be prescribed by a dermatologist, from acne as being in the grip of depression. so the vast majority of patients would have gone through products prescribed by their GP before they ever get to Mike Thornton: That description just sounds ridiculous. a dermatologist and have the possibility of having Surely, if this drug is effective at curing acne, if someone Roaccutane prescribed? took it and their acne was cured, they would not be depressed by having acne because their acne would have Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Order. Before the gone. There is no way acne could be described as being hon. Gentleman responds, can we make sure the Minister the cause of the depression. has time to respond to the debate? 253WH Roaccutane3 DECEMBER 2013 Roaccutane 254WH

Sir Nick Harvey: Indeed, Mr Streeter. has withdrawn its product for commercial reasons in a What my hon. Friend says should be the case, but number of countries, including the USA. However, there seems to be some evidence from some medics that other brands of the same drug—so-called generic drugs— Roaccutaine is being used rather too quickly. are still available in those countries. It is a highly effective oral treatment for severe and resistant acne. However, Young people full of potential and leading happy all effective medicines are associated with a risk of side lives have been crippled by their use of this drug. On the effects in some people. I appreciate that the side effect, face of it, perhaps the proportion of users of the drug or potential side effect, that we are talking about is of who become victims does not appear to necessitate any the most serious nature possible. action being taken, but if we look at the actual numbers involved and reflect that these cases are real, we must Unfortunately, it is impossible to predict which individuals ask what has become of the precautionary principle. will suffer a side effect from a medicine, but a medicine will be issued a licence only if it is considered that the In the absence of a consensus that a link exists, the benefits of treatment in the licensed indications outweigh burden of proof should fall upon the manufacturers the risks of side effects. The risks and benefits of and drug agencies to prove that there is no link, given Roaccutane were carefully considered at the time of the scale of the anecdotal evidence and the picture that licensing and, because of the known safety profile of this is building up. We need a thorough, well-funded and drug, it is licensed for use only for severe forms of acne sizeable study into the link between Roaccutane and the that are resistant to other treatment. Since licensing, the adverse effects that I have described. There is a clear safety of Roaccutane has been closely monitored by the need for stricter guidelines to medical professionals Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, when prescribing the drug. The Department of Health with expert advice from the Commission on Human should be clear about the risks and ensure that that Medicines. advice permeates through every level of the NHS. Young lives are at stake and we can no longer afford inaction. Roaccutane is a medicine that is highly effective at doing what it is designed to do. It is associated with 4.47 pm some serious side effects. Roaccutane is harmful to the unborn foetus and therefore must not be taken during The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman pregnancy. When Roaccutane is taken, common side Lamb): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for effects include dryness of the skin and the lining of the North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) on securing this debate, mouth, nose and eyes. The dryness of skin that is and I say right at the start that I take the issue that he associated with Roaccutane can take the form of cheilitis, raises extremely seriously. I cannot begin to imagine which is cracking or inflammation of the lips. This what families have gone through after suffering such condition can become very severe, chronic and debilitating tragic losses, but if I was in their shoes, I would be in some patients. There has also been significant concern campaigning and fighting, just as they are. I applaud about the possibility that Roaccutane may be associated the work that they have done in raising an issue that is with psychiatric adverse effects, such as depression and obviously of intense concern to them. suicidal behaviour. Roaccutane is the brand name for the drug substance Roaccutane is licensed for use only for severe forms isotretinoin—my hon. Friend and I have both had some of acne that are resistant to other treatment. This difficulty in pronouncing it. During my speech, I will narrow indication for use is not the only restriction on refer to “Roaccutane”, although it is one brand name of its use in the UK. As my hon. Friend the Member for that drug. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for providing Romsey and Southampton North said, it can only be this opportunity to update the House on issues relating given by, or under the supervision of, a consultant to the prescribing of this medicine. I will aim to address dermatologist. The intention behind restricting prescribing the serious concerns that have been raised about the in this way is to ensure that the health professionals safety of Roaccutane, including the adverse psychiatric with the most experience, and who are best placed to effects that my hon. Friend and other Members have give patients advice about the important safety issues expressed concern about. related to the drug’s use, make the prescribing decisions. Roaccutane is a derivative of vitamin A that is used To underpin the discussions between prescriber and for the treatment of severe and resistant acne; it is patient, all licensed medicines have a summary of product important to stress that. My hon. Friend the Member characteristics, which contains important information for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) for prescribers, and are accompanied by an information made the point that it is used only in those cases. leaflet for patients. Acne is a common condition that affects around 80% of adolescents at one time or another; it affects adults Bob Stewart: The nephew of a constituent, Elliot more rarely. Although acne is not life-threatening, it Brandon, was prescribed this drug by the doctor, but can have a significant impact on the lives of sufferers. In neither he nor his mother were given any indication that its severe forms, acne can be both extremely debilitating there might be side effects. That has to be stopped. We and distressing, causing real disfigurement and permanent have to correct that, as soon as possible. scarring. It can also have a genuine impact on someone’s mental health. Many forms of acne will respond well to Norman Lamb: I was going to make that point. It is treatment with topical preparations or systemic antibiotics. important that proper advice is given to patients when a For severe and resistant acne, however, effective treatment drug is prescribed. My hon. Friend raises a serious options are more limited. concern on behalf of his constituent. I accept his point. Roaccutane has been authorised in the UK since The patient information leaflet is an essential document 1983. It is available worldwide and has been used by if the patient is to be fully aware of the possible risks of millions of people. Roche, which first licensed Roaccutane, treatment and make informed choices about their care. 255WH Roaccutane3 DECEMBER 2013 Roaccutane 256WH

Of course, unless they are directed to it and advised to I appreciate that, in the case of the constituents of my read it by the clinician, the chances are that they will hon. Friend the Member for North Devon, there appeared never read it. That is an important point. to be a rapid deterioration of mental health—certainly, a deterioration that immediately followed the start of Caroline Nokes: I have sat in on four consultations taking Roaccutane. Female patients will be asked about when Roaccutane has been prescribed. I reassure the such symptoms every four weeks because of the need to Minister that consultant dermatologists tend not to just rule out pregnancy before a new prescription is issued. hand over a leaflet; they stand over a patient while they The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory read it. Agency keeps this issue under close review. Any new information is carefully assessed to see whether there is Norman Lamb: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for a need to take action to alert health care professionals her intervention. I am sure that that is the usual practice. and patients. However, the concern expressed by my hon. Friend the This debate has provided an important opportunity Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) suggests that to update the House on developments relating to the that may not uniformly be so, though it certainly ought prescribing of Roaccutane, which was last debated about to be. 10 years ago in this place. As with any effective medicine, Since 1998, there has been increasing awareness that difficult issues of risk and benefit must be grappled Roaccutane may be associated with psychiatric adverse with. Few hon. Members will not have known someone reactions, particularly depression and suicidal behaviour. who has suffered, physically or mentally, with the scars The assessment of this issue has been complicated by of acne—severe and acute acne can be a disabling the fact that young people with acne are already at an condition—and few would doubt the serious nature of increased risk of depression, regardless of treatment. the potential side effects of this powerful medicine, and All psychiatric adverse reactions were assessed by the their tragic potential consequences. In the short time working group on isotretinoin in 2005. This working available, I hope that I have been able to update the group of the Committee on Safety of Medicines consisted House on the measures in place to ensure safe prescribing of independent experts, including psychiatrists and of Roaccutane. dermatologists, who considered the available data from published literature and case reports. All new information on psychiatric adverse reactions has remained under Sir Nick Harvey: I sense that my hon. Friend is close and regular review since that time. reaching his peroration. He has offered us reassurance The product information for Roaccutane, and the that the drug is used only under the auspices of specialist other generic alternatives, states that particular care doctors and, apparently, only in severe cases, although needs to be taken where patients have a history of my constituent’s was a mild case. Is he minded to take depression, and that all patients should be monitored any further action at all, because as yet he has not for signs of depression and referred for appropriate suggested anything? treatment if necessary. It also states that stopping taking Roaccutane may not lead—as hon. Members have Norman Lamb: I am grateful for that intervention. I mentioned—to improvement, and therefore further was going to suggest, at the end of my speech, that I am psychiatric or psychological evaluation may be necessary happy to talk to my hon. Friend and his constituent, if and appropriate. he wants that, because this concern cannot be dismissed As it is associated with rare, serious side effects, in a half-hour debate. I am happy to look further at his Roaccutane can only be prescribed by, or under the concerns, because they could not be more serious. I supervision of, a consultant dermatologist. The British recognise that other hon. Members are interested as Association of Dermatologists has published guidelines well, and I am happy to meet others, if that would be of for its members on when to prescribe Roaccutane and some use. I understand the seriousness of the issue that how best to monitor patients for adverse effects during my hon. Friend raises. treatment. The guidelines recommend that patients be Question put and agreed to. asked about any previous psychiatric illness, and the patient and their family should be made aware that the medicine may affect their mood. Patients should be 4.59 pm asked about psychological symptoms at every clinic visit. Sitting adjourned.

39WS Written Statements3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Statements 40WS

on the full policy and operational detail of the new scheme. The Written Statements new scheme will operate for five years starting from 1 January 2014. Tuesday 3 December 2013 The new scheme will provide an unprecedented level of certainty on almost all the NHS branded medicines bill. The bill will stay flat over the next two years and will grow slowly after that. The CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT industry will make payments to the Department of Health if NHS spending on branded medicines exceeds the agreed growth rate. The agreement therefore provides stability and predictability Home of Horseracing Trust (Overdraft) to both the Government and the UK pharmaceutical industry, supporting the industry’s global competitiveness. It will encourage the use of innovative and effective new medicines in the NHS. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, The PPRS has been placed in the Library. Copies are available Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant): The departmental to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from minute laid today relates to a guarantee to be provided the Printed Paper Office. by the Horserace Betting Levy Board to underwrite an overdraft facility for the Home of Horseracing Trust with Weatherbys bank, up to a maximum of £1.5 million. Over £15 million has been raised by the Home of HOME DEPARTMENT Horseracing Trust to support a capital project to create a new National Heritage Centre for Horseracing and Technical Advisory Board (Triennial Review) Sporting Art in Newmarket. This will provide a showcase for British horseracing and sporting art and is expected to provide an attraction for visitors to the town. The Secretary of State for the Home Department While donations to cover the full costs of the project (Mrs Theresa May): On 27 March 2012, I announced in have been pledged, donations will be received over a Parliament through a written ministerial statement, Official period until 2017. An overdraft facility for the Home of Report, column 128WS, the commencement of the triennial Horseracing Trust is therefore necessary, to ensure that review of the Technical Advisory Board. I am now any occasional cash-flow shortages can be met as the pleased to announce the completion of the review. project development progresses. The Horserace Betting The Technical Advisory Board advises the Home Levy Board has been asked by Home of Horseracing Secretary on whether the obligations imposed on Trust to provide security to Weatherbys bank for this communications service providers under the terms of overdraft facility up to a maximum of £1.5 million. the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 are The pledges will all be supported by firm letters of reasonable. commitment and the Horserace Betting Levy Board The review concludes that the functions performed considers that the risk of this guarantee being called by the Technical Advisory Board are still required and upon is extremely low. that it should be retained as a non-departmental public If, during the period of 14 parliamentary sitting days body (NDPB). The review also looked at the governance beginning on the date on which this minute was laid arrangements for the body in line with guidance on before the House of Commons, a Member signifies an good corporate governance set out by the Cabinet Office. objection by giving notice of a parliamentary question The report makes a number of recommendations which or by otherwise raising the matter in Parliament, final will be implemented shortly. approval to proceed with incurring the liability will be The full report of the review of the Technical Advisory withheld pending an examination of the objection. Board can be found on the gov.uk website and copies I am arranging for the minute to be deposited in the have been placed in the Library of the House. Library of the House.

HEALTH JUSTICE

Pharmaceutical Price Regulation Scheme Civil Court System Fees

The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman Lamb): My right and noble Friend the Under-Secretary The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice of State for Health, Earl Howe, has made the following (Mr Shailesh Vara): I am today announcing the publication written ministerial statement: of the Government’s consultation “Court Fees: Proposals I am pleased to announce today the publication of the 2014 for reform” (Cm 8751). pharmaceutical price regulation scheme (PPRS). This follows my For many years, the civil court system has operated announcement of 6 November on the scheme’s heads of agreement, under the principle that those who use the courts should Official Report, column WS19. The PPRS is a voluntary scheme pay the full cost of the service they receive. However, agreed between the Department of Health, acting on behalf of this has not yet been achieved in practice, and, last year, the UK Government and Northern Ireland, and the branded pharmaceutical industry, represented by the Association of the the deficit was more than £100 million. In a time when British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI), under section 262 of the we have made deficit reduction our top priority, the National Health Service Act 2006. Government do not believe that the courts can be The current voluntary pricing scheme, the 2009 PPRS will immune from the tough decisions we have had to take terminate on 31 December 2013. Following negotiations, the in order to bring public spending in line with what we Department of Health and the ABPI have now reached agreement can afford. 41WS Written Statements3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Statements 42WS

With that in mind, this consultation outlines the The United Kingdom Government have decided to opt in to Government’s approach to reducing the cost of the the proposed regulation amending regulation 1215/2012—the court service to the taxpayer. We seek to do this in two Brussels I recast regulation—on jurisdiction and the recognition steps. and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters. In December 2102 an agreement was reached on two regulations The first seeks to align court fees with the cost of the and an international agreement, laying the ground for the creation service provided, to move closer to our long-term goal of a Unified Patent Court (UPC) in the European Union. The of cost recovery through fees. The remissions system UPC will be split into three central divisions, with London will, of course, remain in place, to protect access to hosting the healthcare division. justice for those who cannot afford to pay a fee. In order for the UPC to come into effect, it is necessary to However, the Government believe that, in some cases, make an amendment to the recently recast Brussels I regulation, it is right that those who use the courts pay more than which deals with the rules of jurisdiction and the recognition and what it costs, where they can afford to do so. The second enforcement of civil and commercial judgments, including intellectual property and patent litigation. The proposed amendment provides step of our proposal seeks the introduction of enhanced for the UPC to be recognised as a “Court” for the purposes of the fees, which will ensure that the taxpayer does not subsidise Brussels I regulation. In particular, it establishes its jurisdictional cases involving sums of money far in excess of any rules in respect of defendants domiciled in non-EU countries. proposed fees. The intention is that the UPC will come into being shortly after There will, of course, be measures in place to protect the recast Brussels I regulation in January 2015. The position against setting excessive fees and our proposals include adopted by the United Kingdom in negotiations has secured redrafts of the original text which make the scope and limitations scrapping the £75 application fee for domestic violence of the proposed amendment clearer. injunctions which will help thousands of women seeking The basis on which the amendment is made is under article 81 non-molestation and occupation orders. The Lord of the treaty of the functioning of the European Union (TFEU). Chancellor’s existing duty to protect access to justice The protocol to title V of the TFEU on the United Kingdom’s will continue to apply and he will also be required to opt in therefore applies. consider the overall financial position of the courts and The Government believe that the proposed amendment creating the impact of any fee changes on the legal services the UPC will be of tangible benefit to the United Kingdom’s legal market, so that they do not risk our competitive position. economy and patent litigation business. Costs associated with the Any enhanced fees which, following this consultation, new unitary patent—which will have effect in all contracting the Government decide to introduce will be subject to a member states to the UPC agreement—will be significantly lower full parliamentary debate before they come into force. than those which operate at present. The Government believe that it is in the United Kingdom’s interest to participate. The consultation lasts for seven weeks, during which time the MOJ will actively engage with stakeholders. Copies of the Government consultation will be available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. TRANSPORT An online version of this consultation will be available at: www.gov.uk/moj. EU Transport Council

Convention Against Torture The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond): I will attend the final Transport The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims Council under the Lithuanian presidency (the presidency) (Damian Green): My right hon. and noble friend the taking place in Brussels on Thursday 5 December. Minister of State for Justice, Lord McNally, has made the following written ministerial statement: The presidency will provide the Council with a progress report on a proposal for a regulation of the The optional protocol to the convention against torture (OPCAT), which the UK ratified in December 2003, requires states parties European Parliament and of the Council on the European to establish a “National Preventative Mechanism” (NPM) to Union agenda for railways and repealing regulation th carry out visits to places of detention in order to prevent torture (EC) No. 881/2004 (part of the 4 railway package). and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The UK will be seeking to ensure that necessary revisions The Government established the UK NPM in March 2009—[Official are put in place to reflect agreements in the general Report, 31 March 2009, Vol. 490, Part No. 57, column 56WS]. approach texts for the recast railway interoperability I am informing the House that the following three organisations and safety directives. This includes the UK’s proposals are formally designated as additional members of the UK NPM: to give applicants a choice to apply to national safety Lay Observers, in England and Wales; authorities for an interoperability authorisation or a Social Care And Social Work Improvement Scotland, better safety certificate where operations would be restricted known as the Care Inspectorate (instead of the Scottish to one member state. The UK also supports the Commission for the Regulation of Care, which no longer Commission’s proposals to harmonise the management exists), in Scotland; and administration of all European Union decentralised Independent Custody Visitors Scotland, in Scotland. agencies which have been incorporated in the revised text. EU: Unified Patent Court The Council will be asked to reach a general approach on a proposal for a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on the deployment of alternative The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice fuels infrastructure—clean power. The UK recognises (Chris Grayling): My right hon. and noble Friend the that alternative fuels infrastructure is an area that can Minister of State for Justice, Lord McNally, has made benefit from regulatory support, but is not convinced the following written ministerial statement: that setting rigid, mandatory targets for the deployment 43WS Written Statements3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Statements 44WS of technology specific infrastructure is an effective way The head of the UK delegation can be dismissed by me, of building consumer confidence in new technology. So but the MoU restricts my ability to do so to a limited we welcome the approach taken to replace the targets number of cases where he would clearly not be fit to act. proposed with a more comprehensive and detailed approach Under the MoU, the head of delegation is remunerated to the national policy frameworks. This will allow us to by the ORR, but his remuneration comes from the provide transparency and predictability to the market, money that the concessionaires of the tunnel (Eurotunnel) and mitigate the risk of technology-specific infrastructure are required, under the concession, to pay towards the being outpaced by future innovations and advancements, IGC’s expenses. Chris’s contract is with the ORR—his and ultimately becoming redundant. letter and terms of appointment characterise him not as We support the proposals to adopt common technical an employee but as an individual providing services to standards for refuelling across the EU, but are clear that ORR. He is remunerated on a fees for service basis. this must not create additional barriers or disadvantage I consider that it is only right and proper for Chris to early movers, who must be able to retain confidence that be afforded an indemnity similar to that enjoyed by infrastructure installed across the EU today and in the senior civil servants—SCS employees—in the course of future is available and compatible for them to use. their duties; given that Chris is an appointee of mine, There will be a progress report on a proposal for a even though, in order to protect his independence, the regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council ORR “hosts” him. amending regulation (EC) No. 261/2004 establishing The terms of the indemnity follows the precedents set common rules on compensation and assistance to for managing public money as well as the civil service passengers in the event of denied boarding and of management code. cancellation or long delay of flights and regulation The Treasury has approved the proposal in principle. (EC) No. 2027/97 on air carrier liability in respect of the If, during the period of 14 parliamentary sitting days carriage of passengers and their baggage. The UK will beginning on the date on which this minute was laid continue to look to ensure that additional burdens and before Parliament, a Member signifies an objection by costs on UK industry are minimised, while retaining an giving notice of a parliamentary question or by otherwise appropriate level of protection for passengers. raising the matter in Parliament, final approval to proceed The draft decision of the Council and of the with incurring the liability will be withheld pending an representatives of the Governments of the EU member examination of the objection. states, meeting within the Council, authorising the Commission to open negotiations with the Federal Republic of Brazil on a comprehensive agreement on air transport services will be adopted. The UK supports WORK AND PENSIONS the revision of the European Commission’s mandate which should enable resumption of negotiations of a Single-tier Pension comprehensive air services agreement with Brazil. Under any other business, the Commission will provide information on the aviation emissions trading scheme The Minister of State, Department for Work and (ETS), on passenger ship safety, on the impact of state Pensions (Steve Webb): In advance of the Pensions Bill aid rules on large-scale infrastructure projects in Europe, Second Reading in the House of Lords today, I can on progress on Galileo and EGNOS programme and on confirm that the minimum qualifying period for the the blue belt project. new single-tier pension will be set at 10 qualifying years. In our White Paper, “The single-tier pension: a Christopher Irwin (Indemnification) simple foundation for saving”, we said that individuals reaching state pension age after the new system is introduced—in April 2016—would need between seven The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick and 10 qualifying years in order to receive any state McLoughlin): The Government have decided to indemnify pension. In response to the Work and Pensions Select Mr Christopher Irwin, head of the UK delegation to Committee’s recommendations, in the Pensions Bill we the Channel Tunnel Intergovernmental Commission have limited the minimum qualifying period to a maximum (IGC) for damages and legal costs incurred in the of 10 years. Today’s announcement proposes that the exercise of his functions in relation to liabilities incurred minimum qualifying period be set at 10 qualifying or proceedings brought in any jurisdiction, whether in years, with the intention to lay regulations (under clause 2(3) the United Kingdom, France, or anywhere else in Europe and clause 4(2) of the Pensions Bill) to this effect in due or in the world. This will cover legal representation, course. costs and civil liabilities. Putting in place the minimum qualifying period will A departmental minute providing full detail of the help ensure that state pension expenditure is targeted at indemnity and the reasons for it has been laid in the individuals who have made a significant social or economic House of Commons today. contribution. The contractual position of Christopher Irwin is People can build qualifying years in many ways; for complex. This is due to the dual role of the IGC, as example by paying national insurance or by receiving representative of the British and French Governments credits for a wide range of reasons, including caring for and independent regulator under EU law. Chris is appointed children, caring for others, or being too ill to work. by me but, under a memorandum of understanding We have previously published the estimated effects of (MoU) with the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR), the a 10-year minimum qualifying period in the impact independent regulator, I must consult the ORR first. assessment for the single-tier pension.

13P Petitions3 DECEMBER 2013 Petitions 14P Petition Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: Local authorities have the power to set local speed limits, including 20 mph, and to implement road safety Tuesday 3 December 2013 schemes such as vehicle activated signs, having due regard to relevant legislation and guidance. Although the Department cannot intervene in individual cases, I OBSERVATIONS would encourage all local authorities to take action to improve road safety in their area. To aid local authorities the Department for Transport has published guidance on setting local speed limits TRANSPORT (DFT Circular 01/13) and has developed the Speed Limit Appraisal Tool. The Department also provides Safety of Headland Road, Leicester advice on implementing all types of traffic calming The Petition of residents of the UK, measures in Local Transport Note 1/07: Traffic Calming. Declares that the proposed traffic calming measures In October 2011 the Department also issued traffic on Headland Road in Leicester are vital in ensuring the sign authorisations to all local authorities in England safety of local school children at Linden Primary that relaxed the design requirements for 20 mph zones, School. giving local authorities more flexibility in how they The Petitioners therefore request that the House of install them. These authorisations are available from: Commons urges the Department for Communities and http://www.dft.gov.uk/traffic-auths/. DFT Circular 01/13 Local Government and Leicester City Council to implement makes particular reference to schools, and traffic authorities the proposed measures, including the 20 mph speed have powers to introduce 20 mph speed limits that apply limit without delay and before the next designated only at certain times of day. I have also provided a review of traffic calming measures. special authorisation for every English traffic authority to place an advisory part-time 20 mph limit sign, with And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Keith flashing school warning lights. This can be a more Vaz, Official Report, 12 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 928.] cost-effective solution, where appropriate, and reduces [P001292] the requirement for signing.

593W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 594W

of the treaty on European Union, or equivalent earlier Written Answers to treaty provision, has never been used to expand the membership of the European economic community or Questions EU. Foreign Relations Tuesday 3 December 2013 Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will commission a comparative study on the relationship FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE between (a) Ceuta and Melilla with Spain and (b) UK-Israeli Co-operation: International Development Gibraltar and the UK, and of how the UK might raise at EU level the issue of legal problems arising from 16. Stephen Metcalfe: To ask the Secretary of State Spain’s relationship with Ceuta and Melilla. [179446] for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Mr Lidington: We continually monitor EU and assessment he has made of the effectiveness of international issues which may be relevant for safeguarding UK-Israeli co-operation on international development. Gibraltar. Ceuta and Melilla both border Morocco but [901384] are constitutionally part of Spanish metropolitan territory. Hugh Robertson: We work with Israel in international The status of the Spanish territories of Ceuta and bodies such as the Global Partnership for Effective Melilla is, like the status of Gibraltar as a British Development Cooperation. The Department for Overseas Territory, the result of a distinct set of historical International Development do not have any joint circumstances. At present, we do not have plans to international development projects with Israel, but would commission a comparative study covering Ceuta and consider any proposals made by Israel’s Agency for Melilla. International Development Cooperation, MASHAV. Iraq

Palestinian Child Detainees: Israel Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the 19. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State answer of 4 November 2013, Official Report, column for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent 6W, on Iraq, what reports his Department received on assessment he has made of Israeli treatment of links between Hamid Jafar, Crescent Petroleum Palestinian child detainees. [901387] International and the former Iraqi government led by Hugh Robertson: We continue to have serious concerns Saddam Hussein between 1992 and 2010; and if he will about Israel’s treatment of Palestinian child detainees, make a statement. [179258] despite some progress. The UK highlighted this issue at Hugh Robertson: The information requested is not Israel’s Universal Periodic Review session at the UN held centrally and is therefore available only at Human Rights Council on 29 October. disproportionate cost. Gaza Israel

20. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr McCrea: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has he has made of the effect of the blockade of Gaza by had with the government of Israel on the prevention of the Israeli Defence Force on (a) the Gazan economy terrorism in that country. [179121] and (b) children in Gaza. [901388] Hugh Robertson: We have regular discussions with Hugh Robertson: Israeli restrictions, combined with the Israeli authorities on counter-terrorism issues, including the closure of the smuggling tunnels from Egypt, are an official UK-Israel counter-terrorism dialogue, held severely affecting Gaza’s economy and the living conditions most recently in July 2013. for ordinary people, including children. We have called on Israel to open up legal trade for Gaza. Mike Thornton: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what EU Enlargement representations he has made to his Israeli counterpart on the Prawer plan in the Negev region of Israel. Michael Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for [179390] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which states, or parts thereof, have (a) applied for and (b) achieved Hugh Robertson: Our ambassador to Tel Aviv has member state status of the European Union under (i) discussed our concerns over the Prawer-Begin Bill with Article 48 and (ii) Article 49 of the Treaty of European Israeli Ministers and parliamentarians, while our embassy Union, or equivalent earlier treaty provision. [179342] is in regular contact with Bedouin leaders and activists as well as independent experts. We also raised our Mr Lidington: Of the 22 countries that have joined concerns during Israel’s Universal Periodic Review session the six founding states as full EU members, all joined at the UN Human Rights Council on 29 October. under article 49 of the treaty on European Union or equivalent earlier treaty provision. There are currently Mike Thornton: To ask the Secretary of State for five recognised candidate countries (Iceland, Macedonia, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Montenegro, Serbia, and Turkey), all of whom are discussions he has had with the Israeli Government applying for member status under article 49. Article 48 regarding the implementation of the recommendations 595W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 596W in the report on Children in Military Custody, incidents that the police deal with which are flagged as published in June 2012 with funding from his being related to domestic abuse. These data are collected Department. [179440] at the police force area level, therefore the requested information for Barrow and Furness is not available. Hugh Robertson: Officials from the British embassy Data in the table are given for Cumbria police, who in Tel Aviv have frequent discussions with the Israeli have responsibility for policing Barrow and Furness. authorities on this issue, most recently with the Israeli Ministry of Justice on 21 November. It should be noted that not all incidents that are flagged as domestic abuse by the police will subsequently Kashmir be recorded as crimes. Furthermore, information on the number of recorded crimes which are related to domestic Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign violence is not available. For the purposes of conviction, and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has the figures (which are held by the Ministry of Justice) received on the construction of a wall along the Line of are the counts of crime under the appropriate offence Control in Jammu and Kashmir; and whether he has classifications (e.g. Actual Bodily Harm, Grievous Bodily made representations to the Indian government on this Harm) and convictions of such offences which arose matter. [179447] from domestic violence incidents are therefore not separately Mr Swire: We are aware of recent media reports on identifiable. the construction of a wall along the Line of Control. We have not made any representations to the Indian Drugs: Misuse Government on this matter. UK officials in our high commissions in Delhi and Islamabad regularly discuss John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for the the situation in Kashmir with both Governments. We Home Department when she or Ministers in her welcome the fact that the Prime Ministers of Pakistan Department next expect to discuss the control of new and India met in New York in September and the psychoactive substances with (a) ministerial colleagues commitment they made to maintain a ceasefire on the from other EU member states and (b) European Line of Control in Kashmir. The long-standing position Commissioners. [177757] of successive British Governments on Kashmir has been that it is for India and Pakistan to find a lasting Norman Baker [holding answer 28 November 2013]: resolution to the situation in Kashmir, which takes into The control of new psychoactive substances will be account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. discussed at official level at the Horizontal Drugs Group on 9 and 10 December. This will be followed by the LEADER OF THE HOUSE European Council Justice and Home Affairs Council at ministerial level in early 2014. Details of all ministerial Written Questions meetings are passed to the Cabinet Office on a quarterly basis and are subsequently published on the gov.uk Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Leader of the House website: what efforts he is making to find efficiencies in and reduce the costs of answering written parliamentary http://data.gov.uk/dataset/ministerial-data-home-office questions. [179348] Human Trafficking Mr Lansley: The Government is working, closely with authorities in the House of Commons on the development of a new questions and answers system Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for which will enable both Houses of Parliament and all the Home Department of the 143 suspected victims of answering bodies to distribute questions for written trafficking referred to the National Referral answer and their associated answers securely and Mechanism by her Department and Border Force staff electronically to Members and straight to web publication between April and June 2013, how many had arrived in on Parliament’s website. The project will reduce the cost the UK on a document with a visa. [177625] of processing and publishing questions and answers and improve access to them for Members and the public Mr Harper: Of the 143 suspected victims of trafficking through dedicated web-pages for written answers. referred to the National Referral Mechanism between In addition, we expect to deliver significant costs April and June 2013: savings across government departments, particularly in 37 suspected victims entered on a passport with the appropriate relation to stationery and delivery services. visa; 105 were illegal entries; and one case was an EEA national holding a passport. HOME DEPARTMENT Domestic Violence: Barrow in Furness Interpol John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Home Department how many reports of domestic Department what financial contribution the UK has violence there have been in Barrow and Furness made to Interpol in each of the last 10 years. [179215] constituency in each of the last five years; and how many of those reports have led to a conviction. [177758] James Brokenshire [holding answer 2 December 2013]: Norman Baker [holding answer 28 November 2013]: The following table sets out the contribution the UK The Home Office collects statistics on the number of has made to Interpol in each of the last 10 years. 597W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 598W

James Brokenshire: The Home Office has seconded Financial year £ million less than five staff to the private sector since 2010. 2003-04 1.127 Providing a further breakdown would breach the 2004-05 1.536 Department’s obligations under the Data Protection 2005-06 1.585 Act 1998 not to disclose, to a third party, personal 2006-07 1.710 information about another person. The Home Office 2007-08 1.980 have not seconded staff to trade unions since 2010. 2008-09 2.487 The Home Office has seconded 993 staff in since 2009-10 2.933 2010. As we do not centrally record details of individual 2010-11 2.862 employers, establishing the number of staff who have 2011-12 2.821 been seconded from a trade union or the voluntary 2012-13 2.810 sector, could be done only at disproportionate cost. The National Crime Agency (NCA) now hosts the Vetting UK National Central Bureau (NCB) for Interpol and is now responsible for these payments. The UKNCB was Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for the previously hosted by the Serious Organised Crime Agency Home Department (1) what the average wait is for a (SOCA) and, prior to 2006, the National Criminal DBS check (a) in each region, (b) in each police force Intelligence Service (NCIS). area and (c) nationally; and how many and what proportion of applicants waited more than (i) two Knives: Crime months and (ii) three months for a DBS or CRB check in the last five years; [174685] Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for the (2) what the average waiting time is for taxi drivers to Home Department what steps he has taken to reduce receive Disclosure and Barring Service checks; and how knife crime. [179308] many and what proportion of applicants who work as taxi drivers have to wait more than (a) two and (b) Norman Baker [holding answer 2 December 2013]: three months (i) in each region, (ii) in each police force Police recorded crime data show knife crime fell by 12% area and (iii) nationally for such checks. [174842] in the year up to June 2013. The Government has created a new offence in the James Brokenshire [holding answer 8 and 11 November Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders 2013]: The Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) has Act 2012 for those who carry a knife in a public place or provided the requested information, and I will place the in a school, and go on to threaten and cause an immediate comprehensive statistical tables in the House Library risk of serious physical harm to another person. for your reference. The Government is also considering whether further changes need to be made to the sentencing framework for knife possession as part of the knife sentencing HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION review. Any changes will be brought forward in due course. Written Questions We continue to enable and support local areas to tackle gang and youth violence, including knife crime, Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the hon. Member for through the Ending Gang and YouthViolence Programme. Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross representing the House of Commons Commission, what steps the Ministers’ Private Offices House of Commons Commission is taking to reduce the costs incurred in publishing answers to written Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for the parliamentary questions. [179438] Home Department whether she (a) has appointed or (b) intends to appoint an enlarged ministerial office. John Thurso: In June 2012, the House of Commons [177518] Commission agreed to a package of changes to printing, publishing and purchasing arrangements for written James Brokenshire: I refer my hon. Friend to the answers. Written answers will cease to be printed in reply given by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and daily Hansard from 2014-15. In addition, the Finance Paymaster General, my right hon. Friend the Member and Services Committee agreed, in September 2013, for Horsham (Mr Maude), on 28 November 2013, that written answers would not be printed in bound Official Report, column 398W. volumes of Hansard from the end of the 2013-14 Session. A new questions and answers system is being developed Secondment which will enable both Houses of Parliament and all answering bodies to distribute questions for written Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the answer and their associated answers securely and Home Department (1) how many of her Department’s electronically to Members and straight to web publication civil servants have been seconded to (a) the private on Parliament’s website. The project will reduce the cost sector and (b) trades unions in each year since 2010; of processing and publishing questions and answers [177718] and improve access to them for Members and the public (2) how many secondees from (a) trade unions and through dedicated web-pages for written answers. (b) the voluntary sector have worked in her Demonstrations for Members and their staff will take Department since 2010. [177741] place early in the new year. 599W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 600W

Taken together, these changes are expected to deliver (b) 2011-12 savings in the House of Commons of £578,000 in Number 2014-15 and £772,000 of recurring savings in subsequent Swansea 52,670 years. Vale of Glamorgan 29,240 Torfaen 20,170 WALES Wrexham 28,450 Winter Fuel Payments Total 693,220 Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales which wards in each county borough in Wales received (c) 2012-13 winter fuel payments in (a) 2011, (b) 2012 and (c) Number 2013; and if he will make a statement. [179351] Blaenau Gwent 14,930 Stephen Crabb: The information requested is not Bridgend 31,150 available by county borough, however information on Caerphilly 37,140 the number of winter fuel payments recipients is available Cardiff 56,300 by local authority area in Wales for (a) 2010-11, (b) Carmarthenshire 46,170 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13. Ceredigion 18,920 (a) 2010-11 Conwy 32,390 Number Denbighshire 24,620 Flintshire 34,670 Blaenau Gwent 15,360 Anglesey, Isle of 18,490 Bridgend 31,480 Gwynedd 29,010 Caerphilly 37,560 Merthyr Tydfil 12,110 Cardiff 57,230 Monmouthshire 23,870 Carmarthenshire 46,750 Neath Port Talbot 31,870 Ceredigion 19,170 Newport 29,280 Conwy 32,820 Pembrokeshire 32,240 Denbighshire 24,910 Powys 37,650 Flintshire 34,830 Rhondda Cynon Taf 49,370 Anglesey, Isle of 18,750 Swansea 52,320 Gwynedd 29,630 Vale of Glamorgan 29,270 Merthyr Tydfil 12,280 Torfaen 20,040 Monmouthshire 23,830 Wrexham 28,490 Neath Port Talbot 32,550 Newport 29,850 Total 690,280 Pembrokeshire 32,540 Powys 37,710 Rhondda Cynon Taf 50,290 Swansea 53,360 Vale of Glamorgan 29,390 ATTORNEY-GENERAL Torfaen 20,420 Wrexham 28,710 Banks: Pay

Total 699,420 Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Attorney-General how many officials in the Law Officers’ Departments have (b) 2011-12 worked, or are currently working, on the legal Number challenge lodged with the European Court of Justice on 25 September 2013 on new EU rules on pay in the Blaenau Gwent 15,100 banking sector. [179557] Bridgend 31,220 Caerphilly 37,260 The Solicitor-General: At present, six lawyers or officials Cardiff 56,670 in the Government Legal Service have—in addition to Carmarthenshire 46,420 numerous other responsibilities—been involved directly Ceredigion 18,970 in working on EU legal challenges lodged by the UK Conwy 32,540 and related to pay in the banking sector. Denbighshire 24,710 Flintshire 34,700 Anglesey, Isle of 18,670 Gwynedd 29,200 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Merthyr Tydfil 12,190 Monmouthshire 23,800 Air Pollution: Bristol Neath Port Talbot 32,130 Newport 29,550 Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Pembrokeshire 32,280 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Powys 37,640 assessment his Department has made of levels of air Rhondda Cynon Taf 49,640 pollution in Bristol against threshold limits. [179397] 601W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 602W

Dan Rogerson: The UK’s annual assessment of Dan Rogerson: There have been no formal complaints compliance with EU air quality standards for 2012 was of age discrimination or harassment lodged against published on 30 September this year. This report states DEFRA or its Executive Agencies by an employee or that, in 2012, the Bristol urban area was compliant with other individuals in the last five years. all relevant EU air quality standards except the annual The Rural Payments Agency have had no complaints average limit value for nitrogen dioxide and the long formally lodged since October 2012 but to answer for term objective for ozone. the period prior to this date would be of disproportionate The report can be found at: cost. http://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/library/annualreport/index Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for I have placed a copy in the Library of the House. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many complaints of racial discrimination or harassment have Canal and River Trust been lodged against employees of his Department or its executive agencies by (a) employees and (b) other Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State for individuals in each of the last five years; and how many Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will review such complaints resulted in disciplinary action. [176622] clause 12 of the Water Bill to ensure that powers granted to Ofwat to vary or terminate future water Dan Rogerson: There have been no formal complaints sales agreement on the application of a water company of racial discrimination or harassment lodged against do not negatively affect the Canal and River Trust. employees of DEFRA and its Executive Agencies by [179098] current employees or other individuals in the last five years. Dan Rogerson: Officials are in dialogue with the The Rural Payments Agency have had no complaints Canal and River Trust about this issue and I am meeting formally lodged since October 2012 but to answer for with the Trust soon. We do not believe that clause 12 the period prior to this date would-be of disproportionate will negatively affect the Canal and River Trust and we cost. are working with the Trust to ensure that this is the case. Fly-grazing

Common Agricultural Policy Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for he has made of the extent of fly-grazing in (a) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to England, (b) Hampshire and (c) Portsmouth South his Department’s publication, A Vision for the constituency. [179425] Common Agricultural Policy, published in December 2005, if his Department will produced an updated George Eustice: No specific assessment has been made estimate of the financial cost of the common by Government on the extent of horse welfare problems agricultural policy for each British citizen or typical in specific parts of the country. However, the most family in terms of (a) the net cost to British taxpayers, recent estimates by welfare organisations suggest that (b) the cost to consumers as a result of higher food there may be 2,500 horses being fly-grazed in England. prices and (c) the total cost per person or per family. There is a range of existing legislation that can be used [179389] to deal with fly-grazing including the Animals Act 1971 and the Animal Welfare Act 2006. In addition, because George Eustice: A Vision for the Common Agricultural fly grazing is a form of antisocial behaviour, existing Policy was published in 2005 and reported OECD estimates antisocial behaviour legislation and forthcoming measures of the EU wide costs of CAP and associated trade in the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill policy at may be used to tackle it. We consider the practical “around ¤100 billion a year; approximately ¤50 billion in answer lies in tackling local issues through effective use consumer costs as a result of higher food prices, and approximately of existing and forthcoming legislation together with ¤50 billion taxpayer costs. This is an average cost to an EU family sharing best practice and joined-up working by interested of four of around ¤950 a year.” parties. The latest available OECD provisional estimates of the EU wide costs of CAP and associated trade policy Food: Waste for 2012 are around ¤95 billion with approximately ¤79 billion in taxpayer costs, and approximately ¤16 billion Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for in consumer costs. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions his Department has had with its European counterparts on the European year against food waste Discrimination in 2014. [179393]

Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Rogerson: DEFRA has had no discussions with Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many other EU member states specifically on the European complaints of age discrimination or harassment have Year against Food Waste in 2014. However, we have been lodged against employees of his Department or been working closely with the European Commission its executive agencies by (a) employees and (b) other and other member states with regard to the Communication individuals in each of the last five years; and how many on Sustainable Food, in which food waste is a key issue. of those complaints resulted in disciplinary action. We expect the Communication on Sustainable Food to [176605] be published in spring 2014. 603W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 604W

Poultry: Animal Welfare (2) for which meetings or community meetings along both phase 1 and phase 2 of the route of High Speed 2 Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for free bus services were offered to attendees. [179559] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what welfare regulations his Department has put in place for people Mr Goodwill: The bus service to Bilborough college keeping chickens in domestic environments. [179146] was provided by HS2 Ltd at the request of the local community to enable members of the public to attend a George Eustice: All keepers of domestic poultry must public information event on the phase two route comply with the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the consultation. These events are part of the public Welfare of Farmed Animals Regulations 2007. consultation process and are designed to allow the public to find out more about the proposed route in their area and encourage them to respond to the TRANSPORT consultation. The cost of the shuttle was £200. Goring and Streatley Station HS2 Ltd have not offered free transport to attendees of meetings or community fora along Phase One or John Howell: To ask the Secretary of State for Phase Two of the HS2 route. Transport by what date he expects to announce a decision on the installation of lifts for disabled Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for passengers at Goring and Streatley stations. [179399] Transport how many properties are wholly or partially Stephen Hammond: I have already asked the electrification within the proposed HS2 Voluntary Purchase Zone in programme to deliver footbridge and lift works at this the constituencies of (a) Chesham and Amersham, station to make it accessible for disabled passengers. In (b) Beaconsfield, (c) Aylesbury and (d) Buckingham. parallel I have also asked Network Rail to nominate the [179568] station for funding through the Access for All programme. Mr Goodwill: The information requested is in the High Speed 2 Railway Line following table. Please note that the Voluntary Purchase Zone is now referred to as the Rural Support Zone in Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for the Property Compensation Consultation 2013. For Transport when he expects work on the diversion of this question, the boundary for the Rural Support Zone overhead electric lines in connection with High Speed 2 is based on the maps published for the consultation. to commence. [179394] Number of Number of Dwellings within Businesses within Mr Goodwill: Major works associated with High proposed Rural proposed Rural Speed 2, including the diversion of overhead power Support Zone for Support Zone for lines related to either domestic supplies or railway services, Constituency Phase One Phase One Total are dependent on the Royal Assent of the High Speed Aylesbury 22 0 22 Rail (London – West Midlands) Bill, introduced to Beaconsfield 0 0 0 Parliament on 25 November 2013. Buckingham 14 1 15 Chesham and 13 0 1-3 Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Amersham Transport what works on High Speed 2 are planned to Notes: commence before the passage of the Hybrid Bill 1. These figures are based on the proposed 120m Rural Support Zone set out in through Parliament is complete. [179401] the Consultation document. However should the Property Bond option be introduced following the results of the consultation then this 120m boundary could change. Mr Goodwill: Section 1 of The High Speed Rail 2. Rural Support Zone (RSZ) figures are the best currently available, but remain (Preparation) Act 2013 allows that the Secretary of estimates. 3. The figures have been produced by an electronic count of the Ordnance State may, with the approval of the Treasury, incur Survey Address Layer (AL) 2 Postal Points. This is derived from Royal Mail expenditure in preparation for a high speed railway data based on any property with a postal address. The OS AL2 dataset may not transport network, including: capture all the properties that are partially within the RSZ boundaries as the point for each property is located at the centre of each property parcel. The (a) on pre-construction activity (such as surveying and design); property parcel is the footprint of the building and any associated land (e.g. (b) in acquiring property; and garden or farm land) and this may be within the RSZ boundary, however the centre may be outside. In this instance, the property would not be counted. The (c) in providing compensation in respect of property likely to AL2 Postal Point layer contains all properties with a postal address—this would be affected. exclude plots of land such as roads, allotments, derelict industrial land etc. All ’PO BOX’ entries were removed before calculations run. Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 27 November M18 2013, Official Report, column 306W, on High Speed 2 railway line (1) what organisation paid for the service Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for advertised by HS2 Ltd as a free bus service provided to Transport for what reasons several lanes were closed on help people travel to and from the event on the M18 Motorway between junctions 6 and 7 and 30 November 2013 (a) from Annesley Woodhouse, junctions 4 and 5 on 17 November 2013 when no work Badger Box to Bilborough College and (b) from was being carried out. [179147] Strelley, Main Street to Bilborough College to attend the High Speed 2 consultation event on the route from Mr Goodwill: Resurfacing works were carried out on West Midlands to Manchester, Leeds and elsewhere; the southbound carriageway of the M18 between junctions and what the cost of this service was; [179524] 7 and 6 from 8 pm on Friday 15 November to 3.20 am 605W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 606W on Monday 20 November 2013. To ensure the works TREASURY could be carried out safely, traffic was restricted to the hard shoulder. At times, there were periods when work Banks: Loans was temporarily halted to allow for the delivery of materials, for concrete to harden, and surfacing materials to cool and set sufficiently to permit vehicles to run Paul Flynn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer on it. pursuant to the answer of 11 March 2013, Official Report, column 360W, on business: loans, what new Works to replace the central reserve safety barrier on requirements he plans to place on UK Financial the M18 between junction 4 and 5 commenced on Investment in light of the report by Mr Lawrence 4 November 2013. Tomlinson, Banks’ lending practices: treatment of Works are carried out during daylight hours from businesses in distress. [177839] Mondays to Saturdays, with occasional night time working when required, in line with the terms of the contract Sajid Javid: As you are aware the Government’s between the Highways Agency and its contractor. The shareholdings in Lloyds Banking Group (LBG) and the works are expected to be completed by 22 December Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) are managed on a 2013. commercial and arm’s length basis by UK Financial Investments Ltd (UKFI). UKFI’s role is to manage the Railways: Standards shares and not to manage the banks. Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Tomlinson published his report in a private capacity-it Transport pursuant to the answer of 21 November is not a Government report. The Government is unable 2013, Official Report, column 978W, on railways: to comment on the veracity of the allegations. Nevertheless standards, on which dates (a) he and (b) officials from these are serious allegations. We understand RBS are his Department met representatives of the Office of investigating them; it is important that their investigation Rail Regulation to discuss the lowering of punctuality is concluded thoroughly and promptly. targets on the East Coast and West Coast main lines. The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) has considered [179495] the reports published by Sir Andrew Large into lending Stephen Hammond: Ministers and Department for practices at RBS and, separately, by Dr Lawrence Tomlinson Transport officials meet regularly with representatives into banks’ treatment of customers in financial difficulty. of the Office of Rail Regulation to discuss a variety of Accordingly, the FCA has agreed with RBS that an topics. No meetings were held specifically on the issue independent skilled person will be appointed in accordance of changes to proposed punctuality targets on the East with the FCA’s power under section 166 of FSMA to Coast and West Coast main lines, but this was discussed review the allegations in the reports against RBS’ practices during the course of a number of meetings with ORR within an agreed time scale. in the run-up to the publication of its Final Determination. If the findings from the review reveal issues which Public Performance Measure (PPM) and Cancellation come within the FCA’s remit, the FCA will consider and Significant Lateness (CaSL) are both punctuality further regulatory measures. targets. The new CaSL targets for the long distances services on the East Coast and West Coast main lines Banks: Pay have been toughened and are more stretching than their corresponding reduced PPM target. This will mean that passengers taking longer journeys will benefit from Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the fewer cancelled or significantly late services. Exchequer how many officials in his Department have worked, or are currently working, on the legal challenge lodged with the European Court of Justice Roads: Yorkshire and the Humber on 25 September 2013 on new EU rules on pay in the Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for banking sector. [179558] Transport what estimate he has made of the economic effect on (a) Haltemprice and Howden constituency, Sajid Javid: Work on the legal challenge has been (b) East Riding of Yorkshire and (c) Yorkshire and undertaken by officials dealing with all the Treasury’s the Humber following the completion of the planned work (such as transposition work) following adoption road improvements in Yorkshire and the Humber in of the CRD4 directive, and no additional staff have 2014. [179445] been assigned to work on the legal challenge. Mr Goodwill: No estimate has been made of the economic effect of road improvements on either Child Benefit Haltemprice and Howden constituency, or East Riding of Yorkshire. However, on 12 November 2013 the Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Department published an assessment of the impact of Exchequer how many families in (a) the UK and (b) roads investment taking place in England in 2014. This each region have been fined for failing to comply with assessment includes an estimate of economic benefits in the high-income child benefit tax charge since it was Yorkshire and the Humber, which are estimated to be introduced. [177684] £1.7 billion. Full details of this assessment are available from the Mr Gauke [holding answer 28 November 2013]: No gov.uk website: taxpayers have yet received a penalty for failing to https://www.gov.uk/government/news/nearly-10000-jobs- comply with the high income child benefit charge since supported-by-road-investment-in-2014 its introduction. 607W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 608W

Children: Day Care Nicky Morgan: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) expects all clubs that are registered as Community Lucy Powell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Amateur Sports Clubs (CASCs) will be able to continue what steps he is taking to simplify interaction between to qualify as a CASC as a result of the changes announced tax free childcare and universal credit. [177780] on 26 November 2013, if they wish. However, some clubs may need to reorganise their activities if they wish Nicky Morgan [holding answer 29 November 2013]: to retain CASC status. The Government wants to ensure that people can switch The Government hopes more clubs will consider between universal credit and tax-free child care with becoming eligible, and applying for, CASC status as a minimal complexity. The Treasury and HM Revenue result of the changes. and Customs are working with stakeholders and the HMRC does not collect information about sports Department of Work and Pensions to ensure there is a clubs by reference to regions of the UK. smooth transition between the two schemes. Employment Lucy Powell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps he takes to ensure claimants do not Mr David Davis: To ask the Chancellor of the erroneously claim help with childcare costs through Exchequer what the rate of job growth was in (a) both tax free childcare and universal credit. [177781] Haltemprice and Howden constituency, (b) Yorkshire and the Humber and (c) England in 2013; and what Nicky Morgan [holding answer 29 November 2013]: estimate he has made of such growth in each of the As set out in the tax-free childcare consultation, HM next three years. [179442] Revenue and Customs (HMRC) plan to undertake a range of validation checks to confirm parents’ eligibility Nicky Morgan: Since this Government came into to claim tax-free childcare both on initial registration power employment has increased by over a million and and at subsequent points. This validation will include is now at its highest ever level, 29.95 million. This is checks with the Department for Work and Pensions to 381,000 above its pre-recession peak. ensure that parents in receipt of universal credit are not Latest available figures show that in the year to June able to claim tax-free childcare support. 2013, compared with the previous 12 months employment More details of HMRC’s compliance approach will in the Haltemprice and Howden constituency increased be included in the Government tax-free childcare by 5.6%. In the three months to September 2013 consultation response document which will be published employment in Yorkshire and the Humber increased by in due course. 2.1% on the year and in England by 1.1%. In March 2013 the Office for Budget Responsibility forecast UK Simon Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the employment over the next three years to grow by an Exchequer (1) what estimate he has made of the average of 170,000 each year. potential reduction in the cost to his Department’s Public Expenditure tax-free childcare scheme from restricting eligibility for that scheme to parents earning less than (a) £100,000, Mr Denham: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (b) £90,000, (c) £80,000, (d) £75,000, (e) £70,000, (f) if he will estimate total public spending per head of £65,000 and (g) £60,000 per year; [179269] population in each English region in the last (2) what estimate he has made of the potential 12 months. [177820] reduction in the cost of his Department’s proposed tax-free childcare scheme from restricting that scheme Nicky Morgan: The information requested is available to providing support for up to two children. [179270] on the HM Treasury website: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/country-and- Nicky Morgan: The information requested is not regional-analysis-2013 available. Revenue and Customs: Newry Information on the new scheme for tax-free childcare will not be available until the consultation launched on 5 August is complete and the policy details have been Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer fully defined. The Government response to the consultation how many assessment visits (a) he and (b) senior will be published in due course. officials in his Department have made to the HM Revenue and Customs office in Newry. [177642] Community Amateur Sports Clubs Scheme Mr Gauke [holding answer 28 November 2013]: No Treasury Ministers or HMRC senior officials have made Graham Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the assessment visits to Newry offices. Any visits that have Exchequer how many sports clubs in (a) Hyndburn been made have been to visit staff during their normal constituency, (b) Lancashire and (c) England will be course of business. affected by the recent changes to the Community Amateur Sports Clubs qualifying rates. [177794] Sovereignty: Scotland

Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if Exchequer how many sports clubs in (a) Portsmouth he will make an assessment of the effects on the state South constituency and (b) Hampshire will be affected guarantee of deposits held by (a) individuals and (b) by the recent changes to the Community Amateur businesses in the UK if Scotland were to become an Sports Clubs qualifying rates. [179531] independent country. [177632] 609W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 610W

Danny Alexander: As the Scotland analysis paper, Culture ‘Financial Services and Banking’, makes clear, an independent Scotland would require its own deposit Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for compensation scheme under European law. It would Culture, Media and Sport what recent meetings she has not be possible to share the UK’s deposit guarantee had with the Secretary of State for Education on the scheme—the Financial Services Compensation Scheme Cultural Plan. [179622] (FSCS). On leaving the UK, the population of UK firms would therefore need to be split between the new Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Media Scottish deposit guarantee scheme and the UK’s FSCS. and Sport and Ministers hold regular meetings with Ministers from the Department for Education to discuss Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Chancellor of the a range of issues. Exchequer if he will make an assessment of the economic benefits to the North West of England of Digital Broadcasting: Radio Scotland remaining part of the UK. [179272] Nicky Morgan: The UK government’s ‘Scotland Analysis David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for paper: Macroeconomic and Fiscal Performance’ looked Culture, Media and Sport what assistance her at the extent of trade between Scotland and the rest of Department plans to provide to help local radio the UK, including the north-west of England. The stations to switch to DAB. [177861] paper found that the rest of the UK benefits from large levels of trade with Scotland, with the rest of the UK Mr Vaizey: Government recognises the importance exporting £59 billion of goods and services to Scotland of local commercial radio stations to the communities in 2012. The introduction of an international border they serve and is committed to reserving part of the FM between Scotland and the North West would be expected spectrum as a platform for local and community radio to reduce these trade links. stations, for as long as it is needed. My officials are also working with Ofcom to consider the potential options for smaller local stations to migrate to digital in the lead up to and after a future switchover. We are encouraged CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT by the recent research Ofcom has carried out on software Broadband: Belfast enabling small scale DAB transmissions, which has been successfully trialled in Brighton. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what funding her Department has Sir Roger Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for allocated to Belfast’s Super Connected City strategy; Culture, Media and Sport if she will meet and what assessment she has made of that strategy. representatives of small commercial FM radio stations to discuss the impact of the digital radio switchover [179498] and Government support for this sector before her Mr Vaizey: In May Belfast requested up to £13.46 million Department’s announcement, scheduled for as part of its revised Super Connected Cities plan, 16 December 2013, on the switchover. [179490] which aims to bring the benefits of faster and better broadband to small businesses, wireless coverage to the Mr Vaizey: During the Adjournment debate about city centre and inside public buildings. DCMS supports Mix 96 and Digital Radio Switchover on 28 November this exciting vision for the city. The strategy was approved I agreed to meet a delegation of hon. Members representing in June and a conditional funding letter was issued in small commercial FM radio stations to discuss digital November. As with all Super Connected City plans, radio. funding is being made available on condition of delivery by the 2015 deadline. DCMS continues to work closely Telecommunications: Hearing Impairment with the city council on the development of its projects as it moves from design to implementation. Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what discussions she has had Coventry City Football Club with her ministerial colleagues on voluntary funding of video relay services. [176127] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport if she will meet Mr Vaizey: As Minister for Communications, I met representatives of the Football League to discuss its with the former Minister for the Disabled, my hon. recent decision to allow Coventry City FC to play at Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), in Northampton Town’s Sixfields Stadium. [166588] May 2013 as part of our wider departmental discussions around the digital inclusion agenda. We discussed the Mrs Grant: I meet regularly with the Football League accessibility of telecommunication services, in particular to discuss a range of issues. I also met with the hon. relay services in the UK for disabled and older people Member, and the right hon. Member for Coventry and how we can support the work that the UK Council North East (Mr Ainsworth), to hear about the situation on Deafness (UKCoD) and its Deaf Access to faced by Coventry FC, and have raised their specific Communications (DAC) committee has been doing with concerns with the Football League in writing, including stakeholders on Video Relay Services (VRS) in the the application of their own criteria and regulations in UK—this work includes considering voluntary funding regards to Coventry City FC. solutions for VRS. I will be meeting with UKCoD’s I will let the hon. Member know as soon as I receive DAC committee to discuss the findings of their work on an answer. 27 November. 611W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 612W

Ministers have also written to more than 80 businesses the electoral registers. It is particularly important that with public facing customer service functions to encourage in preparation for the transition to individual electoral them to have an accessible contact strategy in place that registration (IER), EROs do all they can now to ensure use a mix of e-mail, SMS, text, and video relay services that their registers are as accurate and complete as to facilitate engagement with their disabled customers. possible by taking all available steps—including carrying out house to house enquiries and using available local Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for data to identify and target potential electors and to Culture, Media and Sport what recent steps she has verify and validate data held on the electoral register—before taken to encourage business and industry to buy video the transition to IER begins. relay services. [176128] The EROs of the following local authorities did not Mr Vaizey: I, along with the former Minister for the meet performance standard 3 in 2012: Disabled, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West Arun (Esther McVey), wrote in May this year, to over 80 FTSE Braintree companies with public facing customer service functions Broxbourne to highlight the need for them to have accessible contact Castle Point strategies that use a mix of email, SMS, text, and video East Devon relay services (VRS) to facilitate engagement with their East Dorset disabled customers. East Hampshire So far BT, BskyB, Lloyds TSB, Halifax, the Royal East Hertfordshire Bank of Scotland and Barclays Bank plc have all launched East Lindsey VRS schemes for their customers at the minimal cost of Eastbourne £10,000 to £20,000 each with the Post Office soon to Great Yarmouth launch a scheme for their customers as well. Gwynedd I will continue to press for more action in this area. Lancaster UK City of Culture: Londonderry Merthyr Tydfil Mid Devon Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mid Sussex Media and Sport what plans she has to attend events in North Devon Londonderry as part of the UK City of Culture 2013 North Hertfordshire in that city. [179433] North Warwickshire Mr Vaizey: In my role as Minister for Culture, Powys Communications and the Creative Industries, I was on Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead an official visit to Londonderry last week. DCMS officials South Oxfordshire have also visited Londonderry during its year as UK Taunton Deane City of Culture. Torbay Torridge Wales Uttlesford Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Vale of White Horse Media and Sport whether her Department provides West Devon services to people resident in Wales or usually resident West Oxfordshire in Wales. [166100] West Somerset The 2013 annual canvass is still being carried out and Mrs Grant: My Department provides no services will be completed with publication of the revised register direct to people resident in Wales or usually resident in by 17 February 2014 in England and by 10 March 2014 Wales. in Scotland and Wales. The Commission required all EROs to report on their performance prior to the start of the canvass, to confirm that arrangements were in ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE place for the necessary house to house enquiries to be carried out, and has intervened where issues were identified Electoral Registration Officers and recommended improvements to be made before the completion of the canvass. In March 2014, the Commission Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South will make a final assessment of performance for 2013, West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on including an assessment of performance against the Electoral Commission pursuant to the Answer of performance standard 3, and will report on its conclusions. 22 January 2013, Official Report, columns 131-3W, on electoral register, in which local authorities electoral registration officers did not meet performance standard JUSTICE 3 on house-to-house calls for non-registration in (a) 2012 and (b) 2013 to date. [179542] Freedom of Information Act 2000 Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for that its performance standard 3 aims to ensure that Justice if he will bring forward proposals to amend the electoral registration officers (EROs) make the necessary Freedom of Information Act 2000 to extend the house-to-house enquiries to ensure that all eligible residents provisions of the act to all groups in receipt of public are registered, in line with their legal duty to maintain funding. [176822] 613W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 614W

Mr Vara: We continue to review the scope of the Nationality Gender Region Agency type Freedom of Information Act 2000, and we will consider the inclusion of other bodies in receipt of public funds Bangladeshi Male South NGO where appropriate to do so. Bangladeshi Female Yorkshire Home Office In our response to the Justice Select Committee’s British Male West Midlands Self Referral Post Legislative Scrutiny of the Act, we accepted the British Male South Police Committee’s recommendation that contracts provide a Chinese Female South Home office more practical basis for applying FOI to outsourced Chinese Female Yorkshire Home Office services than designation under the Act. We will provide Chinese Female West Midlands NGO a revised Code of Practice to be issued under section 45 Chinese Female South Police of the Act. This will promote openness by all contractors Chinese Female South West Police including through the use and enforcement of contractual Chinese Female Not Known Home Office transparency provisions to encourage still greater openness. Czech Female North West Police Czech Male South Police Copies of the response to Post Legislative Scrutiny Czech Male South West Police can be found in the House Library and at the following Czech Female North West Police web address: Congolese Female Yorkshire Home Office https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Dutch Female South Self Referral attachment_data/file/217298/gov-resp-justice-comm-foi- Ethiopian Female South East Home Office act.pdf Ethiopian Female North East Home Office Filipino Female South NGO Human Trafficking: Victim Support Schemes Gambian Female South Self Referral Gambian Female South West Home Office Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO what the (a) nationality and (b) gender was of each Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO suspected victim of trafficking referred to the Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO Trafficking Victim Support Scheme operated by the Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO Salvation Army in October 2013; in which (i) region, Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO (ii) country and (iii) parliamentary constituency each Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO of the suspected victims was found; and which agency Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO referred each person to the Scheme. [179233] Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO Damian Green: In October 2013 there were 161 referrals Hungarian Male West Midlands Local Authority to the Government-funded support service for adult Hungarian Male West Midlands NGO victims of human trafficking in England and Wales Hungarian Male West Midlands NGO administered by The Salvation Army. In the interests of Hungarian Male West Midlands NGO victim safety only the region in which the victim was Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO encountered is provided, and not the county or Hungarian Male Yorkshire Police parliamentary constituency.Details are provided as follows. Hungarian Male Yorkshire Police Hungarian Male Yorkshire NGO Nationality Gender Region Agency type Indian Male North West Home Office Irish Male South West Police Albanian Female Yorkshire NGO Albanian Female South East Home Office Ivorian Female South Home Office Albanian Female Not Known UKHTC Ivorian Female South Home Office Albanian Female Not Known UKHTC Kenyan Male South East Legal Representative Albanian Female Yorkshire Home Office Latvian Male South East Police Albanian Female North East Home Office Latvian Female South East Police Albanian Female South East Legal Representative Latvian Male East Police Albanian Female Yorkshire Home Office Latvian Female East Police Albanian Female South East Police Latvian Female West Midlands NGO Albanian Female South NGO Latvian Male East Police Albanian Female South West NGO Latvian Female East Police Albanian Female Yorkshire Home Office Latvian Male East Police Albanian Female South East NGO Latvian Female East Police Albanian Female North West Home Office Latvian Female East Police Albanian Female South East Legal Latvian Female East Police Representative Latvian Male East Police Albanian Female South East NGO Latvian Female East Police Albanian Female South East NGO Albanian Female South East Home Office Latvian Female East Police Albanian Female South East Home Office Latvian Male East Police Albanian Female South East Home Office Latvian Female East Police Albanian Female South NGO Latvian Male East Police Albanian Female Yorkshire Home Office Latvian Male East Police Albanian Female South NGO Latvian Female East Police Bangladeshi Female Yorkshire Health Services Latvian Female East Police 615W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 616W

Nationality Gender Region Agency type Nationality Gender Region Agency type

Latvian Male East Police Vietnamese Female South Legal Latvian Male East Police Representative Latvian Male East Police Vietnamese Male Wales Home Office Latvian Male East Police Vietnamese Female South West Police Latvian Male East Police Vietnamese Female Yorkshire Local Authority Latvian Male East Police Vietnamese Female Wales Home Office Latvian Male East Police Vietnamese Male West Midlands Home Office Latvian Male East Police Vietnamese Female South NGO Latvian Female East Police Vietnamese Male South Legal Representative Latvian Male East Police Vietnamese Male Yorkshire Home Office Latvian Male East Police Vietnamese Female South West Home Office Latvian Female East Police Zimbabwean Male Yorkshire Home Office Latvian Male East Police Lithuanian Male East GLA Lithuanian Male East GLA Judiciary Lithuanian Male East Police Lithuanian Male East Police Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Lithuanian Male East Police of all applications in (a) 2010, (b) 2011, (c) 2012 and Lithuanian Male East Police (d) 2013 to date for vacancies for (i) the Supreme Lithuanian Female Yorkshire NGO Court, (ii) judge advocates, (iii) deputy judge Lithuanian Male South Police advocates, (iv) Lord Justices of Appeal, (v) High Court Malaysian Female Yorkshire Home Office judges, (vi) heads of division, (vii) deputy district Moldovan Male East Police judges (magistrates’ courts), (ix) masters, registrars, Nigerian Female South West NGO cost judges and district judges (Principal Registry of Nigerian Female South NGO the Family Division), (x) deputy masters, (xi) deputy Nigerian Female South East Local Authority registrars, (xii) deputy costs judges and deputy district Nigerian Female North West Home Office judges (Principal Registry of the Family Division), Nigerian Female South East NGO (xiii) circuit judges, (xiv) recorders, (xv) district judges Nigerian Female Yorkshire Home Office (county courts), (xvi) deputy district judges (county Nigerian Female South NGO courts), (xvii) district judges (magistrates’ courts), Nigerian Female South Self Referral (xviii) deputy district judges (magistrates’ courts) and Nigerian Female Yorkshire Home Office (xix) magistrates (A) were female, (B) had a disability Nigerian Female Yorkshire Home Office or (C) were Black, Asian or minority ethnic. [179320] Nigerian Female East Home Office Nigerian Female West Midlands Legal Mr Vara: A more diverse judiciary is important in Representative retaining the public’s confidence and trust in justice, Pakistani Female South Self Referral and better reflecting the society it serves. The Government Pakistani Female East Detention has made a number of changes through the Crime and Polish Female South Police Courts Act 2013 that we believe will promote judicial Polish Male Yorkshire NGO diversity. We have introduced part time working in the Polish Male Yorkshire NGO senior courts, including the Supreme Court, we have Polish Male Yorkshire NGO enabled the equal merit provision for judicial appointments Portuguese Male East Police to allow protected characteristics to be taken into account Romanian Female South West NGO where two applicants are of equal merit, and a statutory Romanian Female South West NGO duty for the Lord Chancellor and Lord Chief Justice to Romanian Female West Midlands NGO encourage judicial diversity. Romanian Male East Police In order to protect the confidentiality of applicants, Romanian Female North East NGO the diversity of applicants is not presented in recruitment Romanian Female South East NGO exercises with fewer than 10 recommendations. This is Romanian Male South East NGO consistent with the arrangements for official statistics Romanian Male East Midlands Police published about judicial selection. As a result, results Romanian Male East Midlands Police for Supreme Court, Heads of Division, masters, registrars, Romanian Male East Midlands Police cost judges and district judges (Principal Registry of the Romanian Male East Midlands Police Family Division), deputy masters, deputy registrars, Sierra Leonean Female West Midlands NGO deputy costs judges and deputy district judges (Principal Sierra Leonean Female South East NGO Registry of the Family Division), will not be presented. Slovakian Male Yorkshire Local Authority In addition, there were no recruitment exercises for judge advocates or deputy judge advocates in the time Slovakian Female Yorkshire Police period covered. Slovakian Male Yorkshire Prison Slovakian Female West Midlands Police There is no central record of this information for Trinidadian Female South East Prison magistrates and to provide it would be at a disproportionate Turkish Female South East Local Authority cost. It would require 47 local JP advisory committees Ukranian Female East Police to check the individual records of at least 6,000 applicants at an estimated cost of £12,500. The departmental American (USA) Female South East Prison threshold for refusal of a request for information on the 617W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 618W grounds of disproportionate costs is £800. I am, therefore, Ministers’ Private Offices unable to provide the requested information regarding applicants to magistrate posts. Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether he (a) has appointed or (b) intends to Results in 2013 to date are being published on appoint an enlarged ministerial office. [177520] 5 December at:

http://jac.judiciary.gov.uk/about-jac/823.htm Mr Vara: I refer the hon. Member to the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, my right and will not be included in this PQ. hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), answer of 28 November 2013, Official Report column For the other posts, the following tables show the 398W. number of women applicants, applicants from a BAME background, applicants with a disability and the total Parole number of applicants for recruitment exercises with 10 or more recommendations which were completed Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice between financial years 2010-11 and 2012-13. Please how many times people have opted-in to the probation note the definition of the completion of an exercise victim contact scheme in each year since its changed in June 2012 from the date of the closedown establishment. [179459] report to the date the recommendations were sent to the Lord Chancellor’s report, in order to make the results Jeremy Wright: The Probation Victim Contact Scheme more timely. (VCS), which was established in 2001, provides valuable support to victims of offenders who receive a sentence Please note for Court of Appeal, the exercise in of imprisonment of 12 months or more or a hospital 2012-13 was the first to ask for diversity information. order for a violent or sexual offence. The VCS enables Please also note that information regarding disability victims to be informed of key stages of an offender’s was not asked for in some exercises. sentence, such as if they are transferred to open conditions or released. Victims also have the statutory right to Total number make representations about the licence conditions to which With a of the offender should be subject on release, to reassure Women BAME disability applicants and protect them. Number of applicants for High In cases where the offender’s case is reviewed by the Court Judge Parole Board, victims have a right to submit a victim 2010-11 15 6 n/a 90 personal statement to the Parole Board, setting out the 2012-13 14 2 1 81 impact of the offence against them, and what the impact of release will be. If the Parole Board holds an oral Number of applicants for hearing, victims can apply to read their statement to the Recorders Parole Board panel. While the final decision will be for 2010-11 110 65 n/a 496 the Chair of the Parole Board panel, the presumption is 2011-12 497 192 46 1,430 that victims will be permitted to attend. The new Victims’ Code, which was published on 20 October 2013, enshrines Number of applicants for Circuit the entitlement for victims to make a VPS to the Parole Judges Board. 2011-12 69 26 12 274 Eligible victims will be referred to probation trusts 2011-12 18 16 2 126 after sentence by the joint Police and Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) witness care units, unless the victim elects Number of applicants for District not to receive the VCS. Victims who do not wish to opt Judges (magistrates courts) in immediately are made aware they can do so at any 2011-12 163 54 16 403 time during the offender’s sentence. The National Offender 2012-13 58 27 8 151 Management Service (NOMS) has worked with the CPS to update guidance to staff reminding them of the Number of applicants for District need to offer and explain the VCS to eligible victims. Judges (county courts) 2011-12 218 69 19 483 The new Victims Code, to which I referred above, also includes information about the VCS, including how to opt in, and what information victims will receive Number of applicants for Deputy about an offender’s sentence. District Judges (magistrates courts) NOMS and the Probation Service are committed to 2012-13 611 263 49 1,467 ensuring that victims who are eligible to receive the services of the VCS are provided with all the information Number of applicants for Deputy to help them make an informed choice about whether to District Judges (county courts) opt in to the VCS. Some victims, however, and 2010-11 661 233 n/a 1,552 understandably, do not wish to be provided with 2012-13 489 149 26 1,017 information about the offender. Figures about the number of victims who are eligible Court of Appeal to receive contact under the VCS or have opted into it are held locally by individual probation trusts and to 2012-13 5 0 0 39 collect them would incur disproportionate costs. 619W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 620W

Prisons: Doncaster Prisons: Security Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for how many full-time equivalent staff were employed by Justice (1) how many staff from (a) the Prison Service the National Tactical Response Group (NTRG) in (a) or (b) his Department were involved in work related to 2009-10, (b) 2010-11, (c) 2011-12 and (d) 2012-13; the Doncaster cluster prison competition; [179273] and how many staff will have been employed by the (2) how many staff of (a) the Prison Service or (b) his NTRG in 2013-14. [179582] Department have been involved to date in work related to the Doncaster cluster prison competition. [179497] Jeremy Wright: The following table provides the average number of full-time equivalent (FTE) staff employed Jeremy Wright: The Prison Competition programme by the National Tactical Response for each of the did not recruit or employ staff solely to oversee the South following years: 2009-10; 2010-11; 2011-12; 2012-13; Yorkshire prisons element of the competition (covering 2013-2014 (up to 31 October 2013). HMPs Hatfield, Moorland and Lindholme). The work regarding South Yorkshire was undertaken by the NTRG—average FTE programme team running the wider prison competition. 2009-10 30.45 Prisons: Greater London 2010-11 30.56 2011-12 29.50 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2012-13 31.58 how many times the National Tactical Response Group 2013-14 (to 31 October 2013) 30.29 was called out to each prison in London in (a) 2010, (b) 2011, (c) 2012 and (d) 2013 to date. [179575] The National Offender Management Service’s National Tactical Response Group (NTRG) is a specialist resource Jeremy Wright: The National Offender Management to assist both public and private sector establishments Service’s National Tactical Response Group (NTRG) is in safely managing and resolving serious incidents in a specialist resource to assist both public and private prisons. sector establishments in safely managing and resolving serious incidents in prisons. Victim Support NTRG staff have been called to attend incidents at Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice less than half of the total number of establishments in (1) what assessment he has made of the potential the past year. The number of callouts has been fairly effects on each region of changing the funding formula consistent over the years in question, though there has of Victim Support; [172280] been a slight rise in the number of callouts over recent (2) how much funding will be allocated to each region months. This is mainly due to minor incidents such as within the new funding structure for Victim Support. prisoners protesting by climbing onto the netting between [172281] landings. NTRG staff have the specialist skills required to deal with such incidents which accounted for 69% of Damian Green: More money than ever before will be all the callouts in the past year, and they are frequently available for services to support victims of crime, with a called to attend as a precautionary measure. Not all potential budget of up to £100 million. Changes to the callouts result in engagement by NTRG staff, with a Victim Surcharge will provide up to £50 million more number of situations being resolved locally. Of the all per year for victims’ services. This has the potential to the incidents NTRG attended up to 31 October 2013, double the Ministry of Justice’s current spending of 76% were resolved by surrender. There has been no rise around £50 million on support provision. in the number of serious incidents being attended. Police and Crime Commissioners (PCCs) are best placed The following table sets out the occasions on which to understand the needs of victims in their communities National Tactical Response Group (NTRG) has been which is why they will be responsible for commissioning called to attend each prison in the Greater London local victims’ services from October 2014 and will make area in each of the years requested. The figures do not decisions on which services will be commissioned in include aborted callouts: their area, based on the needs of the local community. Some services will be nationally commissioned by the 2010 2011 2012 20131 Ministry of Justice such as services for victims of human trafficking and the homicide service. Belmarsh 0210PCCs will be provided with a budget from the Ministry Brixton 1010of Justice to commission victims’ services and they were Bronzefield 0000notified of the percentage allocation of the victims’ Coldingley1212services budget they will receive on 9 September 2013. Downview1100The table is as follows. PCCs will be receiving their Feltham 0212indicative budgets shortly. Highdown 1203 Holloway 1000Police force areas Population formula1(percentage)

Isis 1212Avon and Somerset 2.86 Pentonville 0301Bedfordshire 1.10 Send 0100Cambridgeshire 1.44 Thameside 0000Cheshire 1.82 Wandsworth0202Cleveland 0.99 WormwoodScrubs1020Cumbria 0.88 1 To end October. Derbyshire 1.81 621W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 622W

We are yet to finalise our 2014-15 allocations however Police force areas Population formula1(percentage) our current forecast shows at least £75 million of funding Devon and Cornwall 2.97 of which £45,750 is to be spent on nationally commissioned Dorset 1.33 support provision and £29,250 is to be allocated between Durham 1.10 PCCs. In 2014-15 PCCs will commission victim-led Dyfed-Powys 0.91 restorative justice and starting from 1 October 2014 Essex 3.08 they will also commission the majority of services for Gloucestershire 1.06 victims and witnesses. Our indicative budgets and percentage Greater Manchester 4.78 allocation for PCCs are shown in the following table: Gwent 1.02 Hampshire 3.39 2014-15 indicative 1 2 Hertfordshire 2.00 Police force areas Population formula (%) budget (£) Humberside 1.63 Avon and Somerset 2.86% £835,000 Kent 3.09 Bedfordshire 1.10 323,000 Lancashire 2.59 Cambridgeshire 1.44 421,000 Leicestershire 1.81 Cheshire 1.82 533,000 Lincolnshire 1.27 Cleveland 0.99 288,000 Merseyside 2.45 Cumbria 0.88 258,000 London (Mayor’s Office for Policing and 14.69 Derbyshire 1.81 529,000 Crime and City of London Police) Devon and Cornwall 2.97 870,000 Norfolk 1.53 Dorset 1.33 387,000 North Wales 1.22 Durham 1.10 320,000 North Yorkshire 1.42 Dyfed-Powys 0.91 266,000 Northamptonshire 1.24 Essex 3.08 900,000 Northumbria 2.52 Gloucestershire 1.06 311,000 Nottinghamshire 1.94 Greater Manchester 4.78 1,397,000 South Wales 2.28 Gwent 1.02 298,000 South Yorkshire 2.39 Hampshire 3.39 990,000 Staffordshire 1.95 Hertfordshire 2.00 583,000 Suffolk 1.29 Humberside 1.63 476,000 Surrey 2.02 Kent 3.09 904,000 Sussex 2.87 Lancashire 2.59 757,000 Thames Valley 4.06 Leicestershire 1.81 530,000 Warwickshire 0.97 Lincolnshire 1.27 371,000 West Mercia 2.17 Merseyside 2.45 716,000 West Midlands 4.88 MOPAC/City 14.69 4,296,000 West Yorkshire 3.96 Norfolk 1.53 447,000 Wiltshire 1.22 North Wales 1.22 357,000 1 Based on ONS’ Mid-2012 Population Estimates for England and Wales (aged 0+) rounded to 2 decimal places. North Yorkshire 1.42 415,000 Victim Support Schemes Northamptonshire 1.24 362,000 Northumbria 2.52 736,000 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Nottinghamshire 1.94 568,000 how much funding for victims’ services was given to South Wales 2.28 666,000 each police force area in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11, (c) South Yorkshire 2.39 699,000 2011-12 and (d) 2012-13; and what the funding will be Staffordshire 1.95 569,000 for each such area from April 2014. [176774] Suffolk 1.29 378,000 Damian Green: Under the current model by which Surrey 2.02 591,000 the Ministry of Justice provides funding for victims’ Sussex 2.87 838,000 services, funding is not directly or specifically given to, Thames Valley 4.06 1,187,000 or allocated by police force area. Warwickshire 0.97 283,000 The majority of Ministry of Justice funding for provision of West Mercia 2.17 635,000 victims and witness services since 2009-10 has been West Midlands 4.88 1,428,000 provided via a grant to Victim Support (£38.25 million West Yorkshire 3.96 1,158,000 in 2013-14). Under this model, support for victims in Wiltshire 1.22 356,000 local areas is provided based on numbers of police and Total 329,250,00 self referrals received, and the number and types of 1 Based on ONS’ Mid-2012 Population Estimates for England and Wales (aged positive needs identified with victims on an individual 0+) 2 Rounded down to the nearest £1,000 basis. This grant also funds provision of the national 3 Rounded to the nearest £50,000 Homicide Service, and the court based witness service. In addition, MOJ provides funding for a number of other organisations which support victims across different localities. This funding has been allocated to organisations INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT based on identified needs rather than allocations by police force area. Armed Forces: Deployment From 2014-15 onwards more money than ever before Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for will be available for victims’ services, with a potential International Development when she plans to visit the future total budget of up to £100 million per year. Military Stabilisation and Support Group. [177773] 623W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 624W

Mr Duncan: DFID has strong links with the Military Michael Fallon: The Government has been engaging Stabilisation Support Group (MSSG) and the military with the European Commission on the state aid aspects more broadly. The Department works closely with MSSG of our plans to compensate Energy Intensive Industries given its important role in providing military support (EIIs), including aluminium, for the indirect costs of for stabilisation, peace-building and state-building activities. the Carbon Price Floor. This sector is already being compensated for the indirect cost of the EU Emissions Developing Countries: Childbirth Trading Scheme to address concerns of carbon leakage. We have also been engaging with a range of EU Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for member states, including Germany and France, on issues International Development what assessment she has of competitiveness for EIIs impacted by climate change made of changes in maternal and newborn survival and energy policies. rates in those countries where her Department works; Aluminium: Industry and if she will make a statement. [177795] David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Lynne Featherstone: The 2012 ’Countdown to 2015: Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking Maternal, Neonatal and Child Survival’ report shows to support the aluminium industry. [179109] that maternal and child survival are improving in a Michael Fallon: UK aluminium companies can access number of countries where DFID works. Global child help and advice to grow their business through ‘GREAT’ mortality rates have nearly halved since 1990, and recent www.greatbusiness.gov.uk data show that Liberia has halved child mortality in just or over 10 years, and has achieved the child mortality millennium development goal. However, progress has www.gov.uk been variable across countries and more is needed. eligible businesses can gain support in areas such as running, funding, staffing and expanding a business. Israel The Government funded Manufacturing Advisory Service provides practical support on all aspects of manufacturing, Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for including direct access to manufacturing experts with a International Development what recent assessment she proven track record has made of the humanitarian needs of displaced www.mymas.org/services Bedouin from the Neqab; what assessment she has There is also support available from UK Trade & Investment made of the reasons for their displacement; and (UKTI) for those companies wishing to grow through whether she has raised that matter with the Israeli international trade. Government. [179561] Investment support is available through the Regional Growth Fund. Round 5 is now open until 9 December Mr Duncan: DFID does not operate in Israel and has for bids of £1 million but smaller bids are also supported therefore made no assessment of the humanitarian by the fund through existing programmes. needs of the Negev/al-Naqab Bedouin. The Foreign In terms of energy costs and climate change policy, and Commonwealth Office has raised concerns about we recognise the unique circumstances of energy intensive forced relocation of Bedouin communities with the industries such as the aluminium sector which are both Israeli authorities, with a view to agreeing a lasting and large consumers of energy and exposed to international satisfactory solution to this complex issue. competition. Therefore, the Government has put in place a Philippines £420 million compensation package for energy intensive industries including the aluminium industry and we Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for have already started compensating aluminium companies International Development how funding by the for the indirect costs of the EU Emissions Trading Ministry of Defence as part of the UK response to System. From 2014 the UK is also exempting mineralogical Typhoon Haiyan is (a) accredited towards the UK and metallurgical processes from the Climate Change international aid target and (b) will be reimbursed to Levy as allowed for under the Energy Taxation Directive. the Ministry of Defence by her Department. [179513] In addition we have consulted on our proposal to Mr Duncan: In accordance with official development exempt Energy Intensive Industries from the costs of assistance guidelines set by the OECD, DFID will Contracts for Difference as part of Electricity Market reimburse the MOD its marginal operating costs for Reform. We are analysing results of the consultation any assets used to support the UK Government’s and will publish a response in due course. humanitarian work. Education: Prisons Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how Milton Keynes BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS College has performed against its contracted performance targets in the delivery of education Aluminium: EU Action services in HMP Oakwood since that prison opened; [179578] David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) on what occasions providers of prison education Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions services in England and Wales have not met their he has had with his EU counterparts on the effects of contracted performance targets in each of the last five EU policy relating to aluminium of the global competitiveness years; and what financial penalties were incurred in of the EU aluminium industry. [R] [179422] each such case. [179583] 625W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 626W

Matthew Hancock: I am replying as Minister responsible Exports of goods by English region and type of commodity, value, 2012 (£ million) for prison education in England. Yorkshire Standard International North North and the East West I have asked the interim Chief Executive of Skills Trade Classification East West Humber Midlands Midlands Funding Agency to write to the right hon. Member 3—Mineral fuels, 133 566 3,483 16 120 with details of education contract performance at HMP lubricants and related Oakwood and across England more generally. I will materials place a copy of that letter in the Libraries of the House. 4—Animal and vegetable 0 33 127 6 14 In Wales, education in the public sector prisons is oils, fats and waxes 5—Chemicals and related 3,958 12,513 2,673 1,299 1,246 delivered through funding from the Welsh Government. products, not elsewhere EU Emissions Trading Scheme specified 6—Manufactured goods 1,331 2,472 3,174 1,622 3,184 Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for classified by material 7—Machinery and 7,808 5,193 4,062 12,157 15,011 Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer transport equipment of 18 November 2013, Official Report, columns 663-4W, 8—Miscellaneous 452 1,743 1,249 2,216 1,539 when the names of companies receiving compensation manufactured articles will be published. [179584] 9—Commodities not 58 67 79 41 52 classified elsewhere Michael Fallon: We will publish names of companies receiving compensation for the indirect costs of the EU All commodities 13,852 25,899 16,344 18,705 22,640 Emissions Trading System by the end of the financial Source: year. HMRC Regional Trade Statistics. Exports Exports of goods by English region and type of commodity, value, 2012 (£ million) Standard International South South Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Trade Classification East London East West England Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the 0—Food and live animals 1,349 960 1,191 521 7,223 value of exports from each English region in the most 1—Beverages and 132 1,511 212 95 2,320 recent year in (a) total, (b) total by sector and tobacco (c) total per head of population. [177816] 2—Crude materials, 566 884 843 336 6,798 inedible, except fuels Michael Fallon: The value of goods exports by region 3—Mineral fuels, 4,457 9,295 5,147 6 23,224 lubricants and related is published by HMRC; no reliable estimate of the value materials of services exports by region is available. The following 4—Animal and vegetable 40 56 74 4 355 table shows the value of goods exports by English oils, fats and waxes region and the value per head of population for 2012. 5—Chemicals and related 4,730 2,228 8,710 748 38,107 Data for 2012 are provisional. products, not elsewhere specified Exports of goods by English region, value and value per head of population, 2012 6—Manufactured goods 2,649 8,425 2,253 1,218 26,329 Resident Export value per classified by material Export value, population, mid- head of population, 7—Machinery and 10,092 4,775 20,078 7,781 86,956 2012 (£ million) 2012 (million) 2012 (£) transport equipment North East 13,852 2.6 5,323 8—Miscellaneous 3,442 11,670 6,367 1,915 30,592 manufactured articles North West 25,899 7.1 3,656 9—Commodities not 181 206 506 39 1,231 Yorkshire and 16,344 5.3 3,074 classified elsewhere the Humber East Midlands 18,705 4.6 4,095 West Midlands 22,640 5.6 4,012 All commodities 27,640 40,011 45,381 12,663 223,134 East 27,640 5.9 4,679 Source: HMRC Regional Trade Statistics. London 40,011 8.3 4,816 South East 45,381 8.7 5,201 Local Enterprise Partnerships South West 12,663 5.3 2,372 Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his England 223,134 53.5 4,171 Department is taking to measure the efficiency and Source: HMRC Regional Trade Statistics and Office for National Statistics mid-year effectiveness of each local enterprise partnership; what population estimates. steps his Department is taking to encourage all local Regional data on exports by industry sector is not enterprise partnerships to adopt best practices; and if available. HMRC produce data on value of goods exported he will make a statement. [179451] by the type of commodity; this data is shown in the following table by English region. Michael Fallon: The Government does not carry out formal assessments of the effectiveness of local enterprise Exports of goods by English region and type of commodity, value, 2012 (£ million) partnerships (LEPs) as they are voluntary local partnerships Yorkshire Standard International North North and the East West and not agencies of Government. They are first and Trade Classification East West Humber Midlands Midlands foremost accountable to their local community and local businesses. In terms of encouraging best practices, 0—Food and live animals 44 1,100 760 752 545 BIS local teams have successfully built strong relationships 1—Beverages and 9 196 24 90 53 tobacco with LEPs and local government to help them build 2—Crude materials, 59 2,015 711 506 877 their capability and capacity, and to help them understand inedible, except fuels and link with national priorities. 627W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 628W

NHS: Innovation Mr Willetts: An updated version of the ready reckoner, now called the simplified loan repayment model was Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for published in summer 2012 on the Business, Innovation and Skills how many meetings his www.gov.uk Department has had with the Department of Health website. I will arrange to have another updated version on introducing an uptake rule for National Institute for published in the near future which will reflect the latest Health and Care Excellence approved diagnostic available figures for ONS outturn and OBR forecasts, technologies to support the objective of the concerning RPI and earnings. Government’s Strategy for UK Life Sciences to promote innovation in the NHS. [179439] UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Organisation Mr Willetts: The Ministerial Medical Technology Strategy Group (MMTSG) meeting held on 6 November 2013 considered proposals from the National Institute Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) regarding the Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer assessment of medical technologies in general. The of 6 November 2013, Official Report, column 263W, on meeting was attended by representatives of NICE and UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security industry, as well as Department of Health (DH) and Organisation, in which countries UKTI Defence and Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) Ministers. DH Security Organisation is supporting commercial and BIS ministers have also discussed the wider topic of campaigns in 2013-14. [179111] assessment of medical technologies at a subsequent meeting on 12 November 2013. Michael Fallon: UKTI DSO is currently supporting Defence and security commercial campaigns and prospects In addition, BIS and DH officials are in regular in the following countries: contact regarding the implementation of the Government’s Strategy for UK Life Sciences, and the promotion of Algeria innovation in the national health service. Australia Austria Students: Loans Bahrain Bangladesh Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Belgium Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Brazil made of how much will be repaid on fee loans by Brunei graduates starting their degree course in 2013 by each Canada decile of average lifetime earnings. [179267] Chile China Mr Willetts: We currently estimate that students who started their study in 2013 will not repay around 35-40% Colombia of the value of their student loans, reflecting the progressive Denmark nature of the system. Estonia Our student loan repayment forecasts do not consider France average lifetime earnings, as student loan repayments Germany are capped at the level of the debt. Once the debt is paid Ghana off the borrower exits the repayment system, and there Hong Kong is no reason to track a person’s income over their whole India lifetime. Similarly, the Department for Business, Innovation Indonesia and Skills does not forecast earnings beyond the estimated point of repayment or write-off of a loan. Consequently, Iraq estimates by decile of average lifetime earnings are not Italy available from the Department. Japan However, the Institute for Fiscal Studies have carried Kazakhstan out research which may be of interest at the following Kuwait URLs. Libya The Distributional Impact of the 2012-13 Higher Malaysia Education Funding Reforms in England: Mexico http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475- Mongolia 5890.2012.00159.x/pdf New Zealand IFS Briefing Note 113: Nigeria http://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn113.pdf Norway Oman Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Pakistan Business, Innovation and Skills if he will place in the Peru Library an updated version of the ready reckoner on students loans and debt repayment published in 2010 Philippines reflecting his most recent estimate on future earnings, Poland fees and RAB charges. [179560] Qatar 629W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 630W

Romania (4) how many council houses have been built in the Saudi Arabia last three years up to August 2013 in Havant Borough Singapore Council area; [177890] South Africa (5) how many council houses have been built in the South Korea last three years up to August 2013 in Southampton Sweden City Council area; [177891] Switzerland (6) how many council houses have been built in the Taiwan last three years up to August 2013 in New Forest District Council area; [177892] Thailand (7) how many social housing units have been built in Trinidad and Tobago each of the last three years in the Gosport Borough Turkey Council area; [177893] UAE (8) how many social housing units have been built in USA each of the last three years in the Fareham Borough Vietnam. Council area; [177894] The list is not exhaustive as UKTI may offer assistance (9) how many social housing units have been built in in further markets, in accordance with its aim to help each of the last three years in the Havant Borough UK companies to export. Council area; [177895] (10) how many social housing units have been built in each of the last three years in the Southampton City Council area. [177896] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Kris Hopkins: I refer the hon. Member to my answer Caravan Sites of 27 November 2013, Official Report, column 337W. EU Grants and Loans Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assessment Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for he has made of the adequacy of regulation governing Communities and Local Government what the (a) the protection of caravan owners on holiday parks. value and (b) proportion of European Regional [179510] Development Fund monies allocated to the UK with match funding in place has been contractually Kris Hopkins: All caravan holiday parks are required committed in (i) each English region and (ii) total to to be licensed by local authorities under the Caravan date. [176233] Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. Pitch agreements between holiday caravan owners and site Brandon Lewis: The information requested is provided owners are subject to the Unfair Terms in Consumer in the following table for the 2007-13 European Regional Contracts Regulations 1999, which protects consumers Development Fund Programme. The “contractually from enforceability of unfair terms in contracts. committed” figures are up to 31 October 2013. All contractually committed funding has had match funding Council Housing: Hampshire identified so no separate figures are shown for this. Fluctuations in the exchange rate have significantly Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for increased the sterling allocation since the programme Communities and Local Government (1) how many began in 2007. council houses were built in (a) Test Valley Borough The 2007-13 programme is on course and on track. Council area and (b) New Forest District Council area An average of over 100% of the programme has been in the three years to August 2013; [177863] contractually committed or is under consideration, with (2) how many council houses have been built in the match funding in place. In the south-east, we are working last three years up to August 2013 in Gosport Borough with partners and hope to be able to commit to 100% by Council area; [177888] the end of December. We are exactly where we would (3) how many council houses have been built in the expect to be at this point in the seven-year programme. last three years up to August 2013 in Fareham Borough Funds can be allocated until the end of 2013, and Council area; [177889] funds should be spent by 2015.

East Midlands East London North East North West South East

Total programme allocation (¤ million) 268.496 110.995 181.889 375.699 755.755 23.706

Total programme allocation (£ million) 224.747 92.565 156.005 319.241 641.348 19.798

Contractually committed (£ million) 192.04 90.537 145.801 293.239 604.545 16.209

Contractually committed (%) 85.45 97.96 93.46 91.86 94.26 81.88

Contractually committed and under 100.81 108.96 104.22 100.28 108.98 94.00 consideration (%) 631W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 632W

South West convergence South West (Cornwall and Isles of Yorkshire and the competitiveness Scilly) West Midlands Humber Total

Total programme allocation (¤ million) 124.658 458.057 399.9 583.581 3865.45 Total programme allocation (£ million) 104.075 385.088 334.107 489.582 3255.72 Contractually committed (£ million) 100.409 352.331 292.089 406.247 2946.189 Contractually committed (%) 96.48 91.49 87.42 82.98 90.13 Contractually committed and under 101.79 103.26 101.11 108.81 104.89 consideration (%)

Families: Disadvantaged Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) how many Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for public sector land sites have been (a) identified and Communities and Local Government when he intends (b) released for the purpose of new housing to publish the (a) first interim report by the Ecorys developments since 2010; [179382] UK consortium on the Troubled Families programme (2) how many houses were built on released public and (b) official statistics on the Troubled Families sector land sites in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; programme. [179396] and how many are expected to be built on such sites in 2013. [179383] Kris Hopkins: The independent evaluation of the Troubled Families programme is currently under way Kris Hopkins [holding answer 2 December 2013]: The and my Department will publish initial findings in Public Sector Land Programme is designed to accelerate 2014. the release of central Government land to the private The latest progress information, including families sector and deliver on its an ambition to dispose of land turned around, was published on 25 November and is with capacity for 100,000 homes by the end of March available at: 2015. Since 2010, 733 surplus public sector sites have been identified and as of 30 September 2013, 385 sites https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/troubled- had been sold, capable of delivering 62,306 homes. We families-progress-information-at-september-2013-and- families-turned-around-at-october-2013 do not collect data on the number of homes built on these sites. This information is updated quarterly and constitutes management information, rather than official statistics. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Housing: Construction housing unit buildings starts there have been in each of the last five years. [179526] Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the average Kris Hopkins: Statistics on house building starts for time taken is for a large housing scheme to go through England are published in the Department’s live table the planning appeals procedures. [177836] 208, which are available at the following link: http://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live-tables- Nick Boles: During the period from 1 November on-house-building 2012 to 31 October 2013 the average time to decide appeals for all procedures concerning schemes of 10 or Housing: Greater London more houses, where the responsibility for the decision rests with the Planning Inspectorate, was 23 weeks. Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for The Planning Inspectorate is continually looking at Communities and Local Government what the future ways to make the planning system work more efficiently growth in London’s housing stock will be. [179431] and effectively. following a technical review of planning appeals procedures we have introduced a number of Kris Hopkins: DCLG does not produce statistics on initiatives designed to streamline the planning appeals future housing stock. process to enable quicker decision making. Housing: Overcrowding Under the new arrangements that came into effect in October this year, it is the Planning Inspectorate’s objective Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for to decide appeals involving written representations within Communities and Local Government what support his 14 weeks, appeals that require a hearing within 14 Department gives to a large family in overcrowded weeks and appeals that require a public inquiry within housing who cannot access the recommended size of 22 weeks. property due to a lack of supply. [177825]

Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Kris Hopkins: The social housing reforms in the Communities and Local Government what proportion Localism Act have given local authorities and social of current new build homes are specifically designed landlords the tools they need to tackle overcrowding, for those aged 60 and over. [177887] while retaining the ‘reasonable preference’ provisions in the allocation legislation which ensure that overcrowded Kris Hopkins: DCLG does not collect information on families continue to get priority for social housing. the proportion of new build homes specifically designed HomeSwap Direct is there to make it easier for overcrowded for those aged 60 and over. social tenants to swap with those who want to downsize. 633W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 634W

The removal of the spare room subsidy also encourages Gregory Barker: I refer the hon. Member to the the more effective use of social housing, by addressing answer I gave on 22 November 2013, Official Report, the under-occupation of family homes. column 1031W, to the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Our Affordable Homes programme is on track to Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex). deliver 170,000 new affordable homes between 2011 and 2015, with £19.5 billion of public and private funding—half Charitable Donations way through 98,700 homes have already been delivered. A further £23 billion will help ensure another 165,000 Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for new affordable homes are started between 2015 and Energy and Climate Change what steps his 2018. This will be the fastest annual rate of building for Department is taking to encourage its employees to at least 20 years. make tax-free donations direct from their salaries. [179639] ICT Gregory Barker: The Department enables employees Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for to make tax-free donations direct from their salaries, to Communities and Local Government how many charities of their choice, through payroll. people are employed within centralised IT departments The Department supports employees to make such or teams in his Department; and if he will make a contributions through a number of workplace giving statement. [179162] schemes, such as ’Charities Aid Foundation’, ’Give as Brandon Lewis: 28 people are employed in the central You Earn Scheme’ or the Charity for Civil Servants, IT team. Many of the Department’s IT support services with guidance on the departmental intranet and through are outsourced. However, we retain an in-house function hosting workplace giving visits. covering areas including: IT project management, systems architecture, service and account management and support Energy: Northern Ireland for our critical business application systems. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Leasehold and Climate Change what discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Executive on energy pricing and Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for investment in green technology. [179588] Communities and Local Government if he will bring forward legislative proposals to make it easier for Michael Fallon: Energy policy is devolved to the leaseholders to manage their properties. [179338] Northern Ireland Executive. DECC Ministers and officials Kris Hopkins: Private sector leaseholders already have have had a number of discussions with the Northern a range of rights in relation to the management of their Ireland Executive about a range of energy issues. ″ ″ property, including the statutory Right to Manage. Energy: Prices The Government has no current plans to bring forward additional legislation. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Vacant Land Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has had with groups representing older people on Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State providing support to older people who are having for Communities and Local Government what recent difficulty paying their energy bills. [179152] guidance his Department has issued to local authorities on the use of greenfield sites. [177859] Michael Fallon: The Department works closely with a range of groups representing the elderly and vulnerable. Nick Boles: The National Planning Policy Framework, issued in March 2012, maintains strong protections for The coalition Government is strongly committed to green belt, national parks, areas of outstanding natural supporting older and vulnerable people keep warm. We beauty and sites of special scientific interest. The framework have a wide range of policies that provide assistance to also requires local authorities to recognise the character those in need. These include the Energy Company and beauty of the countryside, to encourage re-use of Obligation and the Warm Home Discount. brownfield land if not of high environmental value, to Each year under ECO we will provide targeted assistance support biodiversity, and to take into account the benefits to some 230,000 low income and vulnerable households, of the best and most versatile agricultural land. including pensioner households. Under the Warm Home The framework also allows councils to introduce a Discount, 2 million households receive help when they new Local Green Space designation, to provide additional need it most. This year, well over 1 million of the planning protection for green areas which are demonstrably poorest pensioners will receive an automatic discount special to a local community and hold particular local of £135 on their electricity bill. Most of these discounts significance. have already been credited to accounts. We also providing extra help and advice to vulnerable consumers, including those who are elderly, through the ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Big Energy Saving Network. This will help consumers to engage with the energy market and to give them the Biofuels confidence to take decisions that will reduce their bills. Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department of Health’s cold weather plan, Energy and Climate Change what discussions his supported by the Keep Warm Keep Well campaign, sets Department has had with bioliquids producers on the out a series of clear actions to minimise the health inclusion of support for used cooking oil-derived impact of severe winter weather on the elderly and bioliquids in electricity market reform. [179392] vulnerable was published in early November. 635W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 636W

We also continue to provide winter fuel payments Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for and cold weather payments. Last winter, £2.15 billion of Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to winter fuel payments were made to 12.5 million pensioners. determine whether the Atlantic Array offshore wind And nearly £150 million worth of cold weather payments project could go ahead with another company; and if were made, including to the elderly and vulnerable he will make a statement. [179189] during periods of very cold weather. Michael Fallon: Any decision on rights to the Bristol ICT Channel Zone, which includes the Atlantic Array wind farm area, is a matter for the Crown Estate. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many people are employed Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for within centralised IT departments or teams in his Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has Department; and if he will make a statement. [179166] had with RWE on its decision not to proceed with the Atlantic Array offshore wind project; and whether he Gregory Barker: There are 19 IT staff working in the has received reports that the announcement by the Department of Energy and Climate Change. This is Prime Minister to review green levies played a part in made up of 11 staff working in the central IT department, the decision by the company not to proceed. [179200] and a further eight embedded within local teams supporting specific business applications. The central IT department Michael Fallon: RWE has stated that the decision not supports 1,765 users. to proceed with the Atlantic Array offshore wind project was made due to technical challenges within the Bristol Secondment Channel Zone. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many of his Department’s DEFENCE civil servants have been seconded to (a) the private sector and (b) trades unions in each year since 2010. Arms Trade [177713] Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: The number of civil servants who Defence which export promotion teams including have been seconded to an organisation in the private Ministry of Defence or military personnel have been sector from the Department of Energy and Climate established for (a) the Eurofighter Typhoon, (b) Change (DECC) is shown in the following table. combat ships, (c) submarines and (d) complex weapons; and when each such team was set up. Year secondment commenced Number of civil servants [179247] 2010 3 Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence does not currently 2011 1 have any export promotion teams for defence equipment. 2012 1 The task of promotion of defence equipment is undertaken 2013 5 by UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Organisation, this includes the Export Support Team No civil servants have been seconded from DECC to staffed by military personnel and is supported by the any trade union. Ministry of Defence in this undertaking. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Military Aircraft and Climate Change how many secondees from (a) trades unions and (b) the voluntary sector have Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for worked in his Department since 2010. [177736] Defence pursuant to the answer of 25 March 2013, Official Report, column 1937W, on RAF Lyneham, Gregory Barker: No people have been seconded to when a decision was made about the aircraft’s future; the Department of Energy and Climate Change from what public announcement was made following this either (a) trade unions or (b) the voluntary sector since decision; what his policy is on protecting the nation’s 2010. aviation history and heritage; and if he will make a Wind Power: Seas and Oceans statement. [177882] Mr Francois: Comet aircraft C2 XK699, the gate Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for guardian at the former RAF Lyneham, was sold by the Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has Ministry of Defence (MOD) to the Boscombe Down made of the effect of the decision by RWE not to Aviation Collection (a registered charity) on 4 November proceed with the Atlantic Array offshore wind project 2013. The MOD did not announce the sale of this on (a) UK industrial capability in the offshore wind airframe but it was reported in the local media which industry, (b) the supply chain within the industry and welcomed the sale. (c) the UK’s competitiveness in the offshore wind The RAF Heritage Strategy is, where possible, to industry. [179187] preserve one of each aircraft type in the National Michael Fallon: No assessment of the UK’s offshore Collection. The RAF Museum has a Comet aircraft on wind industrial capability or supply chain has been display at its Cosford site. made as a result of RWE’s decision on Atlantic Array. Furthermore the MOD sponsors the National Museum The UK remains the world leader in offshore wind of the Royal Navy (that includes the Fleet Air Arm deployment with almost 4 GW in operation, and almost Museum), the National Army Museum, the Royal Air 50 GW in leased sites. Force Museum and the Army Air Corp Museum. 637W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 638W

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Francois: The future manning structure of the Defence which military aircraft the traffic collision UK armed forces is informed by assumptions made avoidance system have installed. [179562] within the current Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR). We have been clear that they will be expected Mr Dunne: The following military aircraft are fitted to deploy in a range of roles covering the tasks and with an aircraft collision avoidance system (ACAS): commitments set out in the SDSR. Given the difficulty C-17 of predicting the precise regularity, duration or tempo C-130 of potential future operations, it is equally difficult to A400M predict the regularity of reservist deployments. Tristar However, if the Ministry of Defence is engaged on Hawk TMk2 major operations, our estimate—as set out in the Defence King Air Reform Bill’s impact assessment— suggests that there could be up to 3,000 individual reservist deployments a Grob Tutor year, a figure 20% over the current norm. This estimate E-3D Sentry reflects the increased role reservists will have in the Bae 146 future. Bae 125 As the White Paper ‘Reserves in the Future Force Shadow 2020: Valued and Valuable’, (Cm 8655) published in Sentinel July 2013, made clear, in respect of mobilisations, under Airseeker the future Army Reserves Structure, Reserve units will Voyager move through a training and readiness cycle. The structure Avenger T Mk1 is designed to provide a sustainable cycle of up to one Defender six month deployment in any five year period. The full 30,000 would only be deployed in the event of a full-scale Islander1 national emergency. Tucano Squirrel Shipbuilding Griffin HT Mk1. 1 Depending on Mk, some still to be fitted Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, contracts have been placed for the following Defence pursuant to the answer of 18 November 2013, aircraft to be fitted with an ACAS: Official Report, column 704W, on shipbuilding, what Griffin HAR Mk2 uses his Department will make of buildings no longer Wildcat HMAMk2 used for shipbuilding that are to be returned to his Dauphin N2 Department. [179123] Lynx 9a Wildcat AH Mk1 Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence’s (MOD) current Dauphin N3. planning assumption is that the facilities leased by BAE Systems for warship building in Portsmouth will be A Tornado traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) returned to the Department when this activity ceases in has been developed which is expected to achieve initial the second half of 2014. operating capability by the end of next year. The MOD is looking at options regarding their future Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for use. Some will continue to be used to service the support Defence what the standard operating procedure is for requirements of the warships based in Her Majesty’s activating the traffic collision avoidance system for Naval Base Portsmouth and others will be optimised to RAF aircraft in (a) combat and (b) training missions. deliver the greater volume of engineering work arising [179566] when the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers arrive in the base. Mr Dunne: The standard operating procedure for all Once this options analysis work is complete, the RAF aircraft fitted with an Airborne Collision Avoidance MOD will seek to establish the extent to which there System (ACAS) is for it to be switched on prior to may be scope to make wider commercial use of any take-off and not switched off until after landing. There surplus facilities. is no variation from these procedures while on operations. The only exceptions are during Air-to-Air Refuelling Tornado Aircraft and close formation flying involving ACAS equipped aircraft, where the operating procedures require the Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for leader of the formation to retain normal operation of Defence (1) when the installation of the traffic collision the ACAS while the remaining formation elements switch avoidance system was first recommended for the ACAS to standby. This also allows the combination of Tornado fast jet fleet; by whom it was recommended; aircraft to be considered as a single unit. and how much work has been undertaken to install it Reserve Forces to date; [179563] (2) what the estimate was of the cost of installing the Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Traffic Collision Avoidance System on the Tornado how many annual reservist deployments his fast jet fleet when it was first recommended; and what Department anticipates following the implementation his latest estimate is on the cost of that installation. of Army 2020 and Future Reserves 2020. [174011] [179564] 639W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 640W

Mr Dunne: A commercial off the shelf traffic collision Substantive answer from Philip Dunne to Paul Flynn: avoidance system was identified as a potential solution In my written answer to your Parliamentary Question on 20th to the Department’s requirement for a collision warning November 2013, (Official Report, column 918W), I promised to system on the Tornado GR4 fast jet fleet by the Deep write to you with a list of contracts relating to the replacement for Target Attack Capability Sponsor as part of the the Vanguard Class submarines. I am now in a position to supply Department’s 2008 annual planning process. Development you with the following list of contracts: and manufacture costs of the system were estimated at £59.15 million. Contract Description In January 2012 the Investment Approvals Committee 1 Design Phase—BAES considered a submission on a collision warning system 2 Design Phase—Babcock for Tornado GR4 and directed the project to proceed to 3 Design Phase—Rolls Royce Main Gate. Approval for the installation of a traffic 4 Design Phase—Collaboration collision avoidance system on the Tornado GR4 fast jet 5 Mast Raising at a cost of £53.46 million was given in October 2012. 6 Submarine Communications Technology Demonstrator Programme The current forecast for this activity remains at 7 Retention of Astute Test Rig £53.46 million. 8 Submarine Communications Following contract award with BAE Systems in 9 Safety and Environment December 2012, detailed design on the installation of 10 Strategic Weapon System Safety the traffic collision avoidance system on the Tornado 11 Strategic Weapon System Requirements GR4 began. Two aircraft were delivered to BAE Systems, 12 Pressure Hull Materials Warton in August 2013 for the trial installation of the 13 Pressure Hull Glands modification. The first of these aircraft will commence 14 Foreign and Commonwealth Office Services ground trials in February 2014 and flight trials during 15 Composites Programme (Technology Demonstrator Programme) March/April 2014. The programme remains on track to 16 Successor Facilities—Barrow meet its in service date by the end of December 2014. 17 Extension Engineering Assurance 18 Costs and Tools 19 Signatures Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 20 Requirements and Standards Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of the 21 Technical Assurance and Non Acoustic Signature Board of Inquiry’s findings into the collision of two 22 Electrical Actuator Future Work Tornado jets on 3 July 2012 over the Moray Firth. 23 Equipment Security Grading [179565] 24 Electro Magnetic Silencing 25 Electro Magnetic Silencing Mr Francois: The service inquiry into this accident is 26 Successor Stage 3 Environmental Shock Grade Curve Activities now complete and a copy of the report has been provided 27 Spatial Governance Technical Support to the Procurator Fiscal, who determines whether a 28 Variable Pressure Hydraulics Decision Support Fatal Accident Inquiry (FAI) will be held and sets the 29 Electromagnetic Silencing date. A copy of the report will be placed in the Library 30 Countermeasures Deployment Studies of the House following either the completion of a FAI 31 Support to Signature Management or the Procurator Fiscal’s decision not to hold one. 32 Core Task 33 Composite Task Trident Submarines 34 Adviser Team to Future Submarine 35 Signature support to Future Submarine Project Team 36 Future Capability Support Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 37 Infrastructure Assessment Study if he will list each of the contracts currently placed by 38 Capability System Requirement Document his Department to develop a replacement for the 39 Technology Assessment of Countermeasure Launcher capability Trident nuclear submarine which is covered by 40 Provision of Signature Support commercial confidentiality restrictions on disclosure of 41 Provision of Subject Matter Expert Support contract details [175095] 42 Submarine Communications Subject Matter Expert Technical Support Mr Dunne: There is a standard Defence Condition 43 Successor Propulsor and Hydrodynamics (DEFCON 521) on the disclosure of information that is 44 Independent Technical and Programme Support mandated for all Ministry of Defence (MOD) contracts. 45 Electrical and Whole Boat This condition places duties of confidentiality on both 46 Multi Function Broad Spectrum Array and Future Telemetry System trials parties to the contract, but makes clear that the MOD is 47 Next Generation Nuclear Propulsion Plant Phase 9 required to comply with its statutory duties. When 48 Next Generation Nuclear Propulsion Plant Phase 10 onwards requests are received for contract details, decisions on 49 Independent Nuclear Propulsion Advice and Assessment their disclosure are made on a case by case basis, taking 50 Submarines Support Partner Task account of the commercial sensitivity, as well as other applicable exemptions and exceptions. The list of contracts to develop the replacement for Unmanned Air Vehicles the Trident nuclear submarine will take time to prepare. I will write, to the extent possible, while not Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for breaching commercial confidentiality or national Defence what interest the UK has in the X-47B security considerations, to the hon. Member with this unmanned combat air vehicle; and if he will make a information. statement. [177770] 641W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 642W

Mr Dunne: The UK has no formal links specifically Under the Care Bill we plan to replace the Choice of with the X-47B programme but maintains an interest in Accommodation Directions with regulations and issue developments through an Information Exchange Agreement revised guidance. The new regulations and guidance with the US on unmanned air systems in general. will be published for consultation.

Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for HEALTH Health what assessment his Department has made of the rise in the number of council-funded residents who Accident and Emergency Departments live in residential care and now rely on a top-up to cover the full costs of their care home place; and if he Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [179511] Health how many emergency medicine consultants have (a) opted not to practise, (b) retired and (c) left Norman Lamb: People supported by a local authority to work overseas in each of the last five years. [179556] have the right to choose which care home they go into, subject to certain conditions. This includes the right to Jane Ellison: This information is not held centrally. choose to enter a care home that costs more than the amount the local authority would usually pay to meet Care Homes their needs, provided someone is willing and able to pay the difference between the local authority fee and what Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for the care home charges. Health (1) what assessment he has made of the report Information about the number of people topping-up by the Care Quality Commission, The State of Health their care home fees is not collected centrally. However, Care and Adult Social Care in England, on the number as part of the preparation of its report ‘The State of of people relying on a top-up to pay for a residential Health Care and Adult Social Care in England 2012/13’ care home places; and how many local authorities build the Care Quality Commission (CQC) worked with care in regular reviews to check whether third parties are home providers, assisted by the Care Provider Alliance, able and willing to pay such top-ups for these residents; to collect data on how care in care homes is funded. [179212] The CQC received a total of 5,077 valid submissions (2) if he will make an assessment of the estimate in describing 177,643 registered care home places of which the Care of Elderly People UK Market Survey by 156,151 were filled. The data showed that the proportion Laing and Buisson, published in January 2013, that the of filled care home places that are local authority average amount paid by local authorities for residential funded with a top-up is 10.2%. This compares with the care in 2012 was around £50 to £140 per week below a 44.7% of filled places funded by local authorities without fair market price; if he will issue revised guidance to a top-up. A further 9.1% of filled places are funded local authorities to ensure they have regard to the through NHS Continuing Healthcare and 36% by people actual cost of providing care locally in care homes; and paying for their own care. if he will make a statement. [179271] Depressive Illnesses Norman Lamb: According to the responses to the survey conducted by the Care Quality Commission for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health its report ‘The State of Health Care and Adult Social what assessment (1) he has made of the efficacy of Care in England 2012/13’ the proportion of care home mindfulness-based cognitive therapy in reducing the places that are local authority funded with a top-up is recurrence rate of depression over a 12-month period; 10.2% of filled places. This compares with the 44.7% of [179110] filled places funded by local authorities without a top-up. (2) what comparative assessment he has made of the Under ‘The National Assistance Act 1948 (Choice of effectiveness of (a) mindfulness-based cognitive Accommodation) Directions 1992’, an authority must therapy and (b) anti-depressants in treating repeat contract for the full cost of accommodation arranged episode depression over a long-term period. [179117] under the 1948 Act, including any top-up. To safeguard both residents and authorities from entering arrangements Norman Lamb: The Department has made no such which are likely to fail, paragraph 11.3 says that authorities assessment. However, the National Institute for Health should satisfy themselves that there is every chance that and Care Excellence has evaluated and recommends the the third party will continue to have the resources to use of mindfulness-based therapies as a psychological make the required payments. It is for individual local intervention for the prevention of relapse within its authorities to decide how they do this and the Department guideline “Depression: the treatment and management does not monitor them. of depression in adults (2009)” Contracting arrangements between local authorities and independent sector providers of care are a matter General Practitioners: East Midlands for local negotiation. However, statutory guidance in Local Authority Circular LAC(2004)20, says that in Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for setting their rates authorities should have due regard to Health what assessment he has made of the number of the actual cost of providing care and other local factors. full-time equivalent GPs per 1,000 patients in (a) The guidance also says that authorities should be able Nottingham and (b) the East Midlands in each year to demonstrate that their rates are sufficient to provide since 2009. [179391] residents with the level of care services they could reasonably expect if the possibility of a top-up did not Jane Ellison: The Health and Social Care Information exist. Centre (HSCIC) General and Personal Medical Services 643W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 644W

Statistics show the number of general practitioners Hospitals: Food (GPs) per 1,000 registered patients at 30 September each year. The latest available statistics are as at Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for 30 September 2012. The HSCIC will publish headcount Health what assessment his Department has made of numbers of GPs per 1,000 patients as at 30 September the satisfaction of NHS inpatients with hospital meals. 2013 in the NHS annual workforce census in March [179145] 2014 and full-time equivalent (FTE) figures will be available on request after that date. Jane Ellison: Hospitals have a responsibility to provide The number of FTE GPs per 1,000 registered patients high quality food and drink that meets each patient’s in Nottingham and the east midlands in 2009 to 2012 is needs. The Department introduced Patient-Led Assessments shown in the following table. of the Care Environment (PLACE) in April 2013 to General practitioners (excluding retainers and registrars) FTE per 1,000 assess the quality of the patient environment, including registered patients in selected region, 2009-12 hospital food. PLACE is a voluntary process which As at 30 September 2009 2010 2011 2012 takes place annually, and applies to hospitals, hospices and day treatment centres providing national health East Midlands Strategic 0.552 0.534 0.532 0.538 Health Authority service funded care. A total of 10,841 individuals (staff and patients) Nottingham 0.528 0.515 0.519 0.517 took part in the first PLACE assessments and around of which: 54% of these (5,869) were patient assessors. The results, Nottingham City Primary 0.471 0.466 0.470 0.463 published on 18 September 2013, showed that the average Care Trust (PCT) score for food and hydration across the 1,200 hospital Nottingham County 0.556 0.540 0.544 0.544 sites assessed was 85.41%. A copy of this data has been Teaching PCT placed in the Library and is also available at the following Source: link: The Health and Social Care Information Centre General and Personal Medical Services Statistics http://hefs.hscic.gov.uk/PLACE.asp Health Services: Veterans All NHS hospitals took part in the PLACE assessments and each is required to produce an improvement plan which is posted on the trust website. The Care Quality Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission’s annual in-patient surveys also collects Health if he will have discussions with medical feedback on the experiences of people using a range of professionals in Northern Ireland and the other health services supplied by the NHS, including hospital constituent parts of the UK on forming a strategy to food. The most recent results (In-patient survey 2012) promote best practice in the treatment of armed forces showed that 57% of patients rated the food as being veterans. [179155] Very good’ or ‘good’, an improvement on the previous Jane Ellison: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) and year’s figures of 55% (In-patient survey 2011). UK departments of Health Partnership Board meets The Department has recently confirmed the at least three times a year to address health and wellbeing establishment of a Hospital Food Standards Panel, issues relating to serving personnel, reservists, armed under the chairmanship of Dianne Jeffrey, chairman of forces families and veterans. This Partnership Board is Age UK. The Panel will work closely with the Department co-chaired by the Surgeon General for MOD and at and NHS England to agree practical actions that can Director General level for the Department of Health. deliver genuine improvement in hospital food. Senior officials from the devolved Administrations are board members. In addition to Partnership Board Hyperactivity meetings, there are regular ongoing discussions between departments and devolved Administrations to ensure Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the best possible care for veterans. Engagement with what assessment he has made of the effects of attention medical professionals is an essential part of this process deficit disorders on (a) mental and (b) physical health. and will continue. [179106] Health Visitors Norman Lamb: The Department has made no such Lucy Powell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health assessment. The National Institute of Health and Care pursuant to the Answer of 21 November 2013, Official Excellence (NICE) guidelines, “Attentiondeficit hyperactive Report, columns 1003-4W, on health visitors, how disorder: Diagnosis and management of ADHD in many health visiting students are training and expected children, young people and adults”, published in 2008 to join the workforce between September and state that around 1-2% of children and young people in November 2014. [179567] the United Kingdom meet the criteria for severe ADHD, up to 9% may meet the broader criteria for mild or Jane Ellison: NHS England advise that detailed monthly moderate ADHD and 2% of adults worldwide. projections for the growth of the health visitor workforce The Office for National Statistics (ONS) survey Mental between September and November 2014 are not currently health of children and young people in Great Britain, available. In the 2014-15 financial year the health visiting 2004 (ONS 2005) suggest that around 1.5% of children workforce is expected to grow by 1,554 full-time equivalents. have Hyperkinetic Disorder, which is a term used by the A monthly breakdown of this annual total will be World Health Organization’s International Classification compiled in due course by NHS England and Health of Diseases (ICD-10) to refer to the more severe form of Education England. ADHD. 645W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 646W

Adult psychiatric morbidity in England, 2007, Results liaising with flu vaccine manufacturers to help ensure security of a household survey, found the overall proportion of of supply; adults scoring four or more (the threshold at which holding a central strategic reserve of flu vaccine to address any clinical assessment for ADHD is warranted on the serious supply issues; Adult Self-Report Scale-v(ASRS) was 8.2%). monitoring levels of flu and vaccine coverage throughout the season; and Hyperactivity: Young People I wrote to all hon. Members on 23 October 2013 with details of the seasonal flu strategy and information about eligible groups. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent assessment he has made of the long-term Malnutrition: Young People trends in incidence of attention deficit disorders among children and young people. [179104] Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many patients aged under 18 were admitted to Jane Ellison: The Department has made no such hospital with a primary diagnosis of malnutrition in assessment. The National Institute of Health and Care (a) England and (b) each London borough in Excellence (NICE) guidelines, “Attentiondeficit hyperactive 2011-12. [179179] disorder: Diagnosis and management of ADHD in children, young people and adults”, published in 2008 Norman Lamb: The following table shows a count of state that around 1-2% of children and young people in finished admission episodes with a primary diagnosis of the United Kingdom meet the criteria for severe ADHD, malnutrition for patients aged under 18 in England and up to 9% may meet the broader criteria for mild or primary care trusts (PCTs) in the London Strategic moderate ADHD and 2% of adults worldwide. Health Authority, 2011-12. This information is only The Office for National Statistics (ONS) survey Mental available by PCT and not available by London borough. health of children and young people in Great Britain, Four PCTs in London reported episodes with a primary 2004 (ONS 2005) suggests that around 1.5% of children diagnosis of malnutrition for patients aged under 18. have Hyperkinetic Disorder, which is a term used by the This is not a count of patients as the same patient World Health Organization’s International Classification may be admitted more than once in a financial year. of Diseases (ICD-10) to refer to the more severe form of Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in ADHD. the independent sector-2011-12 Area Number ICT England 38 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people are employed within centralised IT Primary care trust area of responsibility departments or teams in his Department; and if he will Newham PCT * make a statement. [179169] Brent Teaching PCT * Camden PCT * Jane Ellison: 135 people are employed within the Kensington and Chelsea PCT * central estates and information services division of the Total cases across all London PCTs 5 Department. Note: To protect patient confidentiality, figures between 1 and 5 have been replaced Influenza: Vaccination with “*” (an asterisk). Mental Illness: Young People Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to ensure that his Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Department’s influenza vaccination targets are met. what recent assessment he has made of trends in [179154] incidence of anxiety among children and young people over the last 30 years. [179103] Jane Ellison: A range of measures are being taken to maximise the uptake of influenza (flu) immunisation. Norman Lamb: The General Health Questionnaire These measures include: (GHQ12), was developed to gauge the existence of publishing a seasonal flu plan and annual flu letter to assist the anxiety, depression and other mental health problems. national health service and local government to plan for flu, The Health Survey for England uses the GHQ12 including detailed guidance on the flu immunisation programme since 1991 (except in years 1996, 2007 and 2011) to and a checklist of steps for general practices to achieve high vaccine uptake rates; gauge possible anxiety and depression in the population. The Health Survey for England covers those aged 16 NHS England running an assurance process to ensure robust flu vaccination plans are in place to meet the vaccine uptake and 17 in years 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, but not those targets; who are younger. From 1995 it covered all ages. issuing a letter encouraging flu vaccine uptake in frontline The following table shows the possible anxiety and health and social care workers; depression prevalence between 1991 and2010 for those running a targeted national communications campaign to promote aged 17 or lower: improved uptake of flu vaccine in clinical risk groups, pregnant women, and two and three year olds; GHQ12>3 Year (Percentage) Confidence Interval letters sent to 35 charities representing groups for whom vaccination is recommended asking them to encourage patients to get vaccinated, 2010 11.68 0.136742 0.096842 and to professional bodies to encourage their members to get 2009 10.49 0.126799 0.08304 vaccinated; 647W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 648W

GHQ12>3 GHQ12>3 Year (Percentage) Confidence Interval Year (Percentage) Confidence Interval

2008 11.14 0.127587 0.095299 1991 11.49 0.183315 0.04657 2006 11.70 0.133756 0.100234 2005 10.64 0.132825 0.079999 A graph showing the possible anxiety and depression 2004 10.13 0.123855 0.07875 prevalence between 1991 and 2010 for those aged 17 or 2003 10.98 0.12851 0.090992 lower has been placed in the Library. 2002 12.66 0.140007 0.113152 NHS: Awards 2001 10.02 0.118087 0.082375 2000 10.54 0.130435 0.080273 Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for 1999 12.00 0.14098 0.09902 Health what the total expenditure on the National 1998 11.56 0.134319 0.096846 Clinical Excellence Awards was; and how many awards 1997 11.93 0.135769 0.102837 were made in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011 1995 11.17 0.129978 0.093507 and (e) 2012. [177845] 1994 15.46 0.190151 0.119076 1993 14.03 0.17256 0.108064 Jane Ellison: Total expenditure on National Clinical 1992 10.48 0.159515 0.050162 Excellence Awards and the numbers per year for England from 2008 to 2012 are outlined in the following table:

National Awards in England English expenditure on national awards Bronze Silver Gold Platinum Total (£ million)

2008 . 324 151 40 31 546 2008-09 180 2009 310 177 49 30 566 2009-10 202 2010 177 80 22 21 300 2010-11 203 2011 154 87 33 25 300 2011-12 190 2012 149 97 39 15 301 2012-13 177 Notes: 1. The number of new national awards from 2010 onwards was reduced to retain scarce resources and to enable the award scheme to be on a good footing when a new scheme is launched in due course. The decision also took account of general resource constraints. 2. The reduction in expenditure in 2011-12 and 2012-13 has occurred for a number of reasons including taking into account consultants who have retired or left the national health service and a smaller number of new national awards.

NHS: Finance Secondment

Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what his policy is on NHS England’s proposals if he will collate data on the number of (a) secondees on the weighting given to deprivation factors in its from his Department to the private and voluntary Health Funding Review of Allocations. [177792] sectors and trades unions and (b) secondees to his Department from the private and voluntary sectors and Jane Ellison: Responsibility for resource allocation is trades unions. [177821] a matter for NHS England as set out in “The Mandate”. NHS England is overseeing the fundamental review of Jane Ellison: The Department will consider an allocation policy and will draw on the expert advice of appropriate approach to collect and hold information the independent Advisory Committee on Resource about secondees’ employing organisations in the short Allocation (ACRA) and involve a range of external term. partners. NHS England will consider the recommendations and findings of ACRA as part of this. Plans to replace our current Business Management System are being developed as part of Cabinet Office’s NHS: Recruitment wider shared services programme. The detailed scope of the future system has not yet been established. Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which NHS posts were recruited by Odgers Berndston Staff in (a) 2009, (b) 2010, (c) 2011 and (d) 2012; and how much was paid to Odgers Berndston in each such year. [179523] Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many civil servants were employed by his Jane Ellison: The Department does not hold this Department and at what cost on 1 October (a) 2010 information. It is for national health service organisations and (b) 2013. [179555] to decide how best to recruit their staff. Most take advantage of the free to use NHS online recruitment Jane Ellison: The information requested is given in service, “NHS Jobs”for the majority of their appointments. the following table:

Information sampling date 30 September 2010 30 September 2013

Staff full time equivalents (FTE) on payroll 2,543 1,848 649W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 650W

Information sampling date 30 September 2010 30 September 2013

Staff costs in millions of pounds 12.73 8.94

Figures represent FTE and staff costs as at 30 September It is known that there is some under-reporting of for the years in question. children missing from their agreed placement by local More information on both sets of data requested can authorities and hence in the statistics we publish. be found at the following web address: Comparisons with other data sources on missing children http://data.gov.uk/dataset/workforce-management- indicate that the figures presented are an undercount of information-department-of-health the true figure, in part due to definitional issues (e.g. the The information given for each year at 30 September Department only collects information on children missing is unchanged at 1 October in each year. for more than 24 hours). Some work was undertaken in 2012 to improve, the Tobacco: Packaging quality of the data returned by local authorities and this is likely to have contributed to the rise in the Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if numbers of missing children reported. This quality he will ensure that the terms of reference for the review improvement work continued in 2013 and will continue of plain packaging of tobacco products allow an in future years. examination of the incidence of the use of illegal and unbranded cannabis by young people. [179404] Since the response to the original question in July, updated figures for 2013 have been published. The Jane Ellison: Ministers have asked Sir Cyril Chantler Statistical First Release, Children looked after by local to carry out an independent review of the public health authorities in England, was released on 26 September evidence on standardised tobacco packaging. This will 2013. The information given in this response relates to be a focused review to the year ending 31 March 2012 only; however, it includes ’give advice to the Secretary of State for Health, taking into updated information for the year ending 31 March 2012 account existing and any fresh evidence, as to whether or not the as provided by local authorities through the 2013 data introduction of standardised packaging is likely to have an effect collection. For this reason the totals shown will not on public health (and what any effect might be), in particular in match that of the response given in July. relation to the health of children’. Sir Cyril will decide what evidence he wants to draw on. Families: Disadvantaged

Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for EDUCATION Education what involvement his Department has in the troubled families programme. [179198] Children in Care

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Timpson: The troubled families programme is Education how many secure children’s homes are run co-ordinated by a Troubled Families Team based in the by (a) the private sector, (b) the voluntary sector and Department for Communities and Local Government. Officials from the Department for Education work closely (c) local authorities. [179508] with this team and counterparts across Government to Mr Timpson: There are currently 16 secure children’s ensure the troubled families programme works effectively homes in England. Of those, 15 are run by individual and builds in the wider programme of support for the local authorities and one is run by the voluntary sector. children of these families. There are no secure children’s homes currently that are run by the private sector. Higher Education: Scholarships Children in Care: Missing Persons Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many applications have been (a) Education pursuant to the answer of 11 July 2013, received and (b) granted for bursaries under the Official Report, column 406W, on children in care: National Scholarship Programme in the last three missing persons, how many children went missing from years. [176008] care in 2011-12; and how many such children were missing for over one month in each London borough. Mr Willetts: I have been asked to reply on behalf of [179193] the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Institutions involved in the National Scholarship Mr Timpson: The Department currently collects Programme (NSP) use a variety of different approaches information on children looked after by local authorities to deciding who should receive an award. Independent in England who went missing from their agreed placement evaluation of the NSP found that most institutions who for a period of 24 hours or more. responded to an online survey required some or all of A table showing the number of children who went their potential recipients to go through an application missing from their agreed placement, and the number process. The Department has no information on the who were missing for a period of 30 days or more in number of students who applied to their university or each London borough has been placed in the House college for an NSP award. In 2012/13, around 35,000 Libraries. The information shown relates to the year students received an NSP award from their university or ending 31 March 2012. college. 651W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 652W

Priority School Building Programme Mr Laws: As a result of the last Government’s decision to stop collecting information on the condition of the Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for school estate since 2005, the Department for Education Education what funding his Department plans to does not at present hold data on the number of pupils allocate to under three provision in school buildings educated in temporary classrooms. We believe this decision being built as part of the Priority School Building was flawed, which is why the Department has been Programme; and if he will make a statement. [179266] collecting up-to-date information on the school estate via the Property Data Survey programme (PDSP), including Mr Laws: The purpose of the Priority Schools Building the number of temporary classrooms across England. Programme is to rebuild schools in England in the The survey programme has reached the end of its worst condition. There is no provision made within the initial phase; however, as referred to in the written programme for under three places. However, we have ministerial statement of 8 November 2013, Official allocated £200 million to local authorities for this specific Report, column 23WS on Property Data, an additional purpose, and we expect them to contribute a proportion 8,000 surveys are due to be undertaken. These will be of this funding where they wish to provide under three completed by the end of summer 2014. places. Science: Education School Information (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what his policy is on industrial placements Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for to encourage teachers to become more aware of Education what recent assessment he has made of engineering and manufacturing possibilities; and what compliance with the School Information Regulations steps he has taken to encourage such placements. 2012 by (a) maintained schools and (b) free schools [179290] and academies. [177857] Mr Laws: Head teachers and teachers are best placed Mr Laws: The amended School Information Regulations to make decisions about what professional development 2012 removed the requirement for schools to produce a they require in order to meet the needs of their pupils hard copy prospectus each year and instead require and school. The new Teachers’ Standards, which came schools to publish certain information online. For secondary into effect in September last year, make clear that schools, this includes performance data on attainment teachers must and progress of pupils at the end of KS4 and a link to “take responsibility for improving teaching through appropriate the school’s entry on the performance tables website. professional development, responding to advice and feedback Academies (including free schools) are not covered by from colleagues”. these regulations but are required by independent school The Department supports the valuable role played by standard regulations to provide similar information. organisations in the engineering sector such as STEMNET, The Department has notified schools in a number of EngineeringUK, the Royal Academy of Engineering ways about the changes made to these regulations. This and Bloodhound SSC which link engineering professionals includes notifying schools through several of the termly to schools and teachers through their projects. In addition, departmental “Need to Know” emails to all schools the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (before and after the changes came into force), publishing (BIS) funds STEMNET to deliver the STEM Ambassadors and updating information on the departmental website programme, which gives those working in the engineering and working to communicate the changes through partners and manufacturing industries the opportunity to visit like the National Governors Association. Her Majesty’s schools and explain the careers and opportunities that chief inspector has also written to all schools and, in their industries can provide. We also welcome the work doing so, has reminded schools of their obligation to of the Engineering Development Trust which has a make key information available online as it is a key part particular focus on this area, developing partnerships of the evidence Ofsted inspectors use to plan and inform and building links between education and industry across inspections. the UK. Governing bodies and head teachers have clear Special Educational Needs responsibilities to ensure that their school adheres to the law. If a parent believes that a school is not complying with the requirements they are entitled to raise this with Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for the governing body. If their complaint is not resolved Education how much local authorities have paid as a and they believe that the school has failed to discharge result of legal fees incurred by parents appealing its duty or acted unreasonably, they can raise their decisions made regarding special educational needs complaint with the Secretary of State. Any such a children in each of the last five years; and if he will complaint would be handled as set out in the Department’s make a statement. [179192] published school complaints process. Mr Timpson: This information is not collected centrally. Schools: Bradford Parents have the right to appeal to the First-tier Tribunal (Special Educational Needs (SEN) and Disability) George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for about local authority decisions in relation to statutory Education how many schools in the Bradford SEN assessments and the contents of SEN statements. Education Authority area currently teach some of their It is not necessary for parents or local authorities to be pupils in portakabins and other temporary legally represented at Tribunal hearings; however in accommodation. [179424] some cases they choose to be legally represented. In 653W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 654W

2009-10, the last year in which the Ministry of Justice of recruitment in each subject. The allocated numbers published this information, local authorities were legally for individual training programmes are not targets and represented in 15% of hearings and parents in 18% of should not be regarded as such. hearings. For 2013/14, we allocated 113% of the overall estimate of required teachers, including 9,586 School Direct Teachers: Trade Unions (SD) places1. Provisional figures in the ITT census2, published on 26 November 2013, indicated that 6,580 Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for School Direct places had been filled. Overall recruitment Education how many meetings his Department’s as a proportion of the estimated number of teachers officials have had with teachers’ representative required for 2013/14 was 96%. organisations on pay, pensions and conditions of Allocations for the academic year 2014/15 have just service in the last two years. [R] [179395] been made. We do not yet hold data on recruitment to these places. Mr Laws: There have been 30 meetings between 1 Note: Department for Education officials working on pay and conditions of service, and teachers’ representative https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/229468/ organisations, in the last two years. There have been SFR_ITT_allocations_August_2013.pdf 42 meetings between Department for Education officials 2 Note: working on pensions, and teachers’ representative https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ organisations, in the last two years. In addition, there attachment_data/file/260849/Main_Text_-_SFR49-2013.pdf have been 74 meetings between senior Department for Education officials and teachers’ representative George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for organisations in the last two years at which pay, pensions Education how many places are available for training and conditions of service may have been discussed. teachers on the School Direct system. [179177] Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Laws: We have allocated 15,254 places to School Education how many meetings he or his officials have Direct for initial teacher training for 2014/15. Full had with the NASUWT and NUT on their trade information is available online1. dispute since 14 October 2013. [179402] 1 Note: http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/i/ Mr Laws: There has been one meeting between itt%20allocations%20management%20information% Department for Education officials and the NASUWT 2021%20nov%202013%20-%20fixed.pdf and NUT on their trade disputes since 14 October 2013. The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Young People Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), has invited the General Secretaries of the NUT and the Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for NASUWT to attend a programme of talks about the Education how many education, health and care plans implementation of education policy, including in those for young people have been implemented to date. areas covered by their trade disputes. The programme [179458] of talks will begin in December. Mr Timpson: As of 31 October 2013, the 31 local Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities taking part in the special educational needs Education how many meetings he has had with pathfinder programme reported that they had completed teachers’ representatives on pensions, pay and 1,336 Education, Health and Care plans. conditions of service in the last two years. [179403] A number of local authorities outside of the pathfinder programme are also trialling Education, Health and Mr Laws: There have been 28 meetings between the Care plans but the Department does not have any data Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend on the number completed to date. the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) and teachers’ representative organisations in the last two years. CABINET OFFICE Representative organisations are free to propose items for discussion, either in advance or during these meetings. Charitable Donations Many of these meetings will have included discussions about pay, pensions or conditions of service. Mr Blunkett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what steps his Department is taking to Teachers: Training encourage its employees to make tax-free donations direct from their salaries. [179634] George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many places available for the training Mr Maude: My Department operates a Payroll Giving of teachers on the School Direct system are unfilled. scheme which is promoted through the Cabinet Office [179176] intranet and enables individuals to make donations to any charity direct from their salary. Mr Laws: In allocating places each year for initial In addition the Cabinet Office funds the Payroll teacher training (ITT) the Department for Education Giving Awards which recognise the best organisations models the likely fill rate. We over-allocate to ensure we involved in Payroll Giving and promotes the sharing of train enough teachers, taking account of the likely level best practice. 655W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 656W

Employment It is not possible to provide figures for the number of cases of assisted suicide or euthanasia from the routine death registration Mr David Davis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet data held by ONS. Such cases, where known, would be categorised Office what estimate he has made of the number of as homicides and would be coded as assault because assisted people employed by (a) small and (b) medium-sized suicide and euthanasia are illegal in England and Wales. businesses operating in (i) Haltemprice and Howden The mortality data held by the ONS is based on the conditions constituency, (ii) East Riding of Yorkshire and (iii) and circumstances recorded on the medical certificate of cause of death, or the coroner’s death certificate, for deaths in England England in each of the last five years. [179444] and Wales. The data is coded using the International Classification Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). Residents of England and responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Wales may travel overseas to a country where assisted suicide or euthanasia is legal, and these deaths would be registered in the asked the authority to reply. country in which they occurred. Letter from Jill Matheson, dated December: Figures for suicides in the United Kingdom, England, Wales As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your and regions of England are published annually on the ONS recent Parliamentary Question concerning the number of people website and are available from 1981 onwards. The latest statistical employed by (a) small and (b) medium-sized businesses operating bulletin also includes analysis of the impact of registration delays in (i) Haltemprice and Howden constituency, (ii) East Riding of on UK suicide statistics: Yorkshire and (iii) England in each of the last five years (179444). www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-in-the- Annual statistics on the number of employees are available united-kingdom/index.html from the ONS’ Business Register and Employment Survey (BRES). The tables below contain the latest figures, showing the number of Unemployment: Young People estimated employees in micro, small and medium sized enterprises. BRES employee estimates, by employee sizeband, are not available Stephen Timms: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet prior to 2009. Office how many people aged 24 and under have been Table 1: Haltemprice and Howden unemployed for over a year (a) at the most recent date Employee for which data is available and (b) in each of the last 20 sizeband 2009 2010 2011 2012 years. [179527] Micro 5,600 5,600 5,600 5,600 Small 7,400 7,500 7,100 6,900 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Medium- 7,700 7,600 7,300 7,600 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have sized asked the authority to reply. Table 2: East Riding of Yorkshire Letter from Jil Matheson, dated December 2013: Employee As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your sizeband 2009 2010 2011 2012 Parliamentary Question asking the Minister for the Cabinet Micro 22,600 22,100 22,200 22,100 Office how many people aged 24 and under have been unemployed for over a year (a) at the most recent date for which data is Small 35,200 34,400 33,800 32,700 available and (b) in each of the last 20 years. 179527 Medium- 31,300 31,300 29,600 29,900 sized Information regarding youth unemployment is available from the Labour Force Survey. The number of 16 to 24 year olds who Table 3: England have been unemployed for over 12 months are included in the Employee table. sizeband 2009 2010 2011 2012 Estimates are for the three month period July to September Micro 3,801,600 3,752,900 3,808,700 3,780,100 each year from 1993 to 2013. Small 6,410,400 6,341,700 6,268,200 6,371,600 As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject Medium- 6.425,600 6,529,900 6,537,500 6,522,300 to a margin of uncertainty. These are indicated in the table sized provided. Notes: Long term1 unemployment among people aged 16 to 24, July to Micro-sized businesses are those classed as having 0-9 employees. September each year, UK, seasonally adjusted Small-sized businesses are those classed as having 10-49 employees. Medium-sized businesses are those classed as having 50-249 employees. Level (thousand) Figures are rounded to the nearest hundred. National and local area estimates for many labour market 1993 **285 statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant 1994 237 count are available on the NOMIS website at: 1995 185 http://www.nomisweb.co.uk 1996 157 Euthanasia 1997 136 1998 86 Mr Amess: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office 1999 72 how many cases of (a) assisted suicide and (b) 2000 73 euthanasia have been reported in each of the last five 2001 67 years. [179256] 2002 61 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 2003 ***67 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have 2004 66 asked the authority to reply. 2005 75 Letter from Jill Matheson, dated December 2013: 2006 103 2007 112 As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many cases of (a) assisted suicide and 2008 121 (b) euthanasia have been reported in each of the last five years. 2009 198 [179256] 2010 218 657W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 658W

Long term1 unemployment among people aged 16 to 24, July to Esther McVey: People whose contributory employment September each year, UK, seasonally adjusted and support allowance (ESA) exhausts because of the Level (thousand) time limit may be eligible for income-related ESA instead. 2011 258 Other benefits such as housing benefit may also be 2012 266 available in addition. 2013 **282 Claimants in the support group, who have the most 1 Unemployed for over 12 months. Source: Labour Force Survey severe health conditions or disabilities, are not affected (LFS) by the time limiting provision. Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely and Pensions how many people have ceased receiving to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 any benefits once their employment and support with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within allowance has ended to date. [179350] the range 180-220. Key: *0=CV<5—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise Esther McVey: Information on how many people **5=CV<10—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered have ceased receiving benefits once their employment reasonably precise and support allowance has ended is not readily available *** 10 = CV <20—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered and to provide it would incur disproportionate cost. acceptable **** CV ? 20—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for unreliable for practical purposes Work and Pensions how many people with Parkinson’s disease in receipt of employment and support allowance (ESA) and placed in the work related WORK AND PENSIONS activity group have subsequently come off ESA after returning to work. [179525] Crisis Loans Esther McVey: This information requested is not Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for readily available and to provide it would incur Work and Pensions what was the rate of (a) repayment disproportionate cost. and (b) default for crisis loans provided in the Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for financial years (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11, (iii) 2011-12 Work and Pensions what plans he has for the and (iv) 2012-13. [179467] work-related activity group in employment and Steve Webb: There is no time limit for crisis loans to support allowance; and if he will make a statement. be repaid. the requirement to repay a crisis loan remains [179528] until the full amount has been paid back and, in some Esther McVey: There are no plans to abolish the cases, the loans take many years to be recovered fully. work-related activity group this Parliament. The Consequently, there are no formal figures for defaulted Government is committed to ensuring ESA works as crisis loans in each year, only outstanding expenditure well as possible, giving support to those who need it and yet to be recovered. Table 1 shows the proportion of helping those who are able to move into work. We’ve crisis loan expenditure that was recovered in the following already made considerable improvements, such as to the years up to and including 2012-13. work capability assessment following independent reviews. Table 1: The proportion of crisis loan expenditure recovered in each year from However, as is only right, we keep the policy under 2009-10 to 2012-13 constant review to make sure it is operating as well as Percentage recovered in each following year possible. Total paid Year loan back by paid out 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2012-13 Employment Services 2009-10 13 19 18 12 63 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 - 11 20 18 49 Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of 2011-12 - - 14 19 33 introducing a jobseeker classification instrument as in 2012-13 - - - 16 16 the case in Australia. [179529] Notes: 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/National Statistics but in this Esther McVey: The Department tested a classification case we only have Management Information available. It is not quality assured instrument very similar to the Australian model in to the same extent as Official / National statistics and there are some issues with 2010-11. the data, for example, these amounts do not include recoveries from applications which were processed clerically and have not yet been entered on to the Social A full report describing this work is available from Fund Computer System. the gov.uk website: 2. Percentages are rounded to the nearest whole percentage point. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Employment and Support Allowance attachment_data/file/210303/WP116.pdf

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing and Pensions what benefits the Government makes available for workers who have paid national insurance Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work contributions but have then been incapacitated and and Pensions how many households affected by the having exhausted their 12 month period on under-occupancy penalty include (a) one child, (b) employment and support allowance are still two children, (c) three children and (d) four or more incapacitated. [179341] children. [177532] 659W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 660W

Esther McVey: The following table shows the number Jobcentre Plus of claimants with dependant children receiving reductions in HB due to the removal of the spare room subsidy Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for policy, as of August 2013-. Work and Pensions what performance measures his Department has put in place for Jobcentre Plus offices. Number [179252] One child 78,751 Two children 62,098 Esther McVey: All of our performance data is published Three children 5,500 regularly in the DWP business plan which can be found Four or more children 3,790 on the gov.uk website.

This information can be found at: Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for https://stat-xplore.dwp.gov.uk Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Guidance on how to extract the information required how often Jobcentre Plus advisers refer Work can be found at: Programme participants to non-contracted local https://sw.stat-xplore.dwp.gov.uk/webapi/online-help/Stat- voluntary sector organisations for additional support. Xplore_User_Guide.htm [179509] This year the Government has made available £180 million in discretionary housing payment funding. Esther McVey: We do not make referrals for claimants The 2011 Census reports that there are up to 400,000 who are participating in the Work programme. It is the households in overcrowded social housing in Great role of Work programme providers to decide whether Britain. claimants need any additional support.

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jobseeker’s Allowance and Pensions how many children live in households affected by the under-occupancy penalty. [177533] Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Esther McVey: There are 235,146 dependant children Work and Pensions what estimate his Department has in households with claimants receiving reductions in made of the (a) average duration of sanctions issued HB due to the removal of the spare room subsidy against jobseeker’s allowance claimants and (b) policy, as of August 2013. This information can be number of repeat sanctions issued against jobseeker’s found at: allowance claimants in 2012-13. [179257] https://stat-xplore.dwp.gov.uk Guidance on how to extract the information required Esther McVey: The information requested for part can be found at: (a) is not readily available and could be provided only https://sw.stat-xplore.dwp.gov.uk/webapi/online-help/Stat- at disproportionate cost. Xplore_User_Guide.htm However, information for part (b) on the number of This year the Government has made available times a JSA claimant has received a sanction for each £180 million in discretionary housing payment funding. type of sanction for the new regime, from 22 October The 2011 census reports that there are up to 400,000 2012 to 30 June 2013 is published and can be found in households in overcrowded social housing in Great Table 1.7 at: Britain. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/255568/sanctions-nov2013-update-2.xls Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many houses whose occupants are affected by the under-occupancy penalty have Pension Funds previously had disability-related adaptations made to them. [177535] Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Esther McVey: We estimate that around 35,000 claimants the viability of financing infrastructure through affected by the removal of the spare room subsidy live defined ambition pension funds; and if he will make a in significantly adapted accommodation. statement. [177848] This year the Government has made available £25 million in discretionary housing payment funding for people Steve Webb: The potential for defined ambition pension with significantly adapted accommodation. vehicles to invest in infrastructure has been looked at by Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the Defined Ambition Industry Working Group, and and Pensions how many young carers live in the consultation paper ’Reshaping workplace pensions households affected by the under-occupancy penalty. for future generations’ (Cm 8710) published on 7 November [177536] 2013, includes models that might be suited to investing for the longer term in illiquid assets such as infrastructure. Esther McVey: We estimate that around 50,000 claimants However, investment decisions are a matter for pension affected by the removal of the spare room subsidy are in fund trustees and members and Government would not receipt of carer’s allowance. intend to make specific measures or requirements over A reliable estimate by age group is not available. and above the work already being conducted on enabling This year the Government has made available pension investment in infrastructure more generally. £180 million in discretionary housing payment funding. The consultation closes on 19 December. 661W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 662W

Personal Independence Payment Social Fund

Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what his policy is on the booking of Work and Pensions (1) what guidance was provided by personal independence payment appointments on-line. his Department to local authorities to assist them in [177777] setting up local welfare provision schemes to replace crisis loans and community care grants; [179512] Mike Penning: It is for the providers to consider how (2) what steps he has taken to promote awareness of best to arrange personal independence payment new local authority welfare provisions introduced in appointments with claimants. There was no requirement the recent Social Fund reform on his Department’s for providers to provide an online service for booking website. [179577] appointments. It was for them to design their own appointment booking service although in the service Steve Webb: The new provision is not a replacement specification issued during the procurement we actively for the Social Fund. Some discretionary payments have encouraged innovation in many areas of the service. been abolished from 1 April 2013 and funding has been The Government welcomes any method that improves provided for new, better targeted local provision through opportunities for claimants to book appointments. We arrangements made by upper tier local authorities in actively encourage innovation around digital access. England and the Welsh and Scottish Governments. To help local authorities set up for their new provision Poverty: Children we had dedicated web pages providing data on discretionary Social Fund demand and spend. We also held many Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work workshops around the country in 2011 and 2012 with and Pensions how many and what proportion of UK local authorities and the devolved administrations to children were living in (a) relative and (b) absolute discuss how the funding could be put to the best use. poverty in each year since May 1983. [179398] The settlement letter issued to each local authority with details of their funding provided further clarity on the Esther McVey: This information is not available for purpose of the funding. all periods requested. To promote awareness of the new arrangements we Estimates of the number and proportion of children continue to work very closely with English local authorities in relative and absolute low income are published in the and the devolved nations to support them in delivering National Statistics Households Below Average Income their schemes so that claimants can get timely access to (HBAI) series. HBAI uses household income adjusted the support available from both the Department and (or ‘equivalised’) for household size and composition, the new provision in their communities. This includes to provide a proxy for standard of living. This information messages on the Department’s telephone enquiry lines, is captured using the Family Resources Survey (FRS). scripts for DWP staff to use in Jobcentres and call Estimates on the number and proportion of children centres and messages on customer letters, and information in relative and absolute low income in the UK have on the benefits pages on the www.gov.uk website. consistently been reported using the FRS since 1998/99; these estimates are available for each financial year up State Retirement Pensions to 2011/12, the latest period for which estimates are available. Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for It is not possible to provide fully consistent estimates Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has for earlier periods. Child relative and absolute low income made of the cost to the Exchequer of implementing the estimates are available from 1994/95 to 1997/98, for new single-tier state pension. [179608] Great Britain only and UK-wide estimates are available for earlier periods covering full year 1987, two-year Steve Webb: The estimated costs of implementing calendar periods from 1988-1989 to 1992-1993 and single-tier can be found in the impact assessment published two-year financial periods from 1993/94-1994/95 to 1995/ in October 2013, at the following link: 96-1996/97, based on results from the Family Expenditure Survey. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ attachment_data/file/254151/a-pensions-bill-single-tier-ia-oct- All of these estimates can be found in the latest 2013.pdf HBAI publication, available at the following link: These are best estimates of implementation costs https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/households- (including IT expenditure and all running costs) for below-average-income-hbai-199495-to-201112 both the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) (ISBN 978-1-78153-531-8). and HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) until 2022-23. Relevant estimates can be found in Table 4.1tr - 4.4tr We will refine these figures further as we work through (on pages 102-5). detailed plans for delivery once the Pensions Bill 2013 We want to develop better measures of child poverty, gets Royal Assent. which include, but go beyond income to provide a more Estimates of ongoing administrative costs or savings accurate picture of the reality of child poverty and drive are not available at this stage. We expect these to reduce the right action. Our consultation on how best to measure in the longer term as a result of the overall simplification child poverty closed on 15 February. The complexity of the state pension and reduction in dependency on means- the issue means that we need to take time to ensure we tested support. In the short-term, some additional have the best option for measuring child poverty. We administrative costs may result from operating transitional will publish our response as soon as we can. arrangements. 663W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 664W

Unemployment Benefits Out-of-work benefit claimants by statistical group and duration of oldest claim in England, Yorkshire and the Humber region and Haltemprice and Howden constituency, May 2012 Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for Duration of oldest claim Work and Pensions how many people have been in Up to 1 1to2 2to3 3years receipt of out-of-work benefits for (a) one year, (b) Total year years years and over two years and (c) three years or more in (i) Haltemprice and Howden constituency, (ii) Yorkshire Yorkshire and and the Humber and (iii) England in each of the last the Humber three years. [179441] Total 455,240 211,340 62,060 28,550 153,290 Jobseeker 161,760 119,210 31,970 7,460 3,120 Esther McVey: The information is shown in the following Incapacity 224,170 69,410 17,520 12,730 124,510 tables: benefits Out-of-work benefit claimants by statistical group and duration of oldest claim in Lone parents 50,520 15,420 10,000 6,760 18,340 England, Yorkshire and the Humber region and Haltemprice and Howden Carers 12,860 3,200 1,980 1,410 6,270 constituency, May 2013 Duration of oldest claim Others on 5,930 4,090 590 200 1,050 income-related Up to 1 1to2 2to3 3 years benefit Total year years years and over

England Haltemprice Total 3,783,860 1,793,390 692,920 313,980 983,560 and Howden Jobseeker 1,168,790 824,420 175,520 116,750 52,100 Incapacity 2,018,570 786,330 405,840 122,160 704,240 Total 3,260 1,500 430 190 1,140 benefits Jobseeker 1,230 910 230 50 40 Lone parents 433,370 126,340 87,620 60,140 159,270 Incapacity 1,690 470 120 100 1,000 Carers 121,260 29,330 19,120 13,180 59,630 benefits Others on 41,870 26,980 4,830 1,750 8,310 income-related Lone parents 250 80 60 40 60 benefit Carers 70 20 10 — 30 Others on 20 10 — — — Yorkshire and income-related the Humber benefit Total 433,190 213,420 81,970 37,060 100,740 Jobseeker 152,280 103,760 25,010 16,620 6,880 Out-of-work benefit claimants by statistical group and duration of oldest claim in Incapacity 216,140 88,250 44,460 12,470 70,960 England, Yorkshire and the Humber region and Haltemprice and Howden benefits constituency, May 2011 Lone parents 45,040 14,130 9,600 6,250 15,060 Duration of oldest claim Carers 14,250 3,500 2,280 1,530 6,930 Up to l 1to2 2to3 3years Others on 5,480 3,780 620 180 900 Total year years years and over income-related benefit England Total 3,971,360 1,566,210 407,190 252,370 1,745,590 Haltemprice Jobseeker 1,197,090 1,028,070 120,780 33,900 14,330 and Howden Incapacity 2,104,450 342,640 167,030 137,360 1,457,420 Total 2,960 1,480 490 270 720 benefits Jobseeker 1,070 730 130 140 70 Lone parents 516,860 139,460 97,230 67,680 212,490 Incapacity 1,590 650 290 90 560 Carers 95,930 22,960 14,680 9,780 48,500 benefits Others on 57,040 33,080 7,460 3,640 12,850 Lone parents 200 70 50 30 50 income-related benefit Carers7020101030 Others on 20 10 — — — income-related Yorkshire and benefit the Humber Total 445,510 184,540 46,220 27,790 186,960 Out-of-work benefit claimants by statistical group and duration of oldest claim in Jobseeker 146,710 125,820 15,670 3,890 1,330 England, Yorkshire and the Humber region and Haltemprice and Howden Incapacity 229,360 36,420 17,810 15,260 159,880 constituency, May 2012 benefits Duration of oldest claim Lone parents 51,680 15,320 10,260 7,140 18,960 Up to 1 1to2 2to3 3 years Carers 11,540 2,800 1,770 1,210 5,750 Total year years years and over Others on 6,220 4,170 710 300 1,040 income-related England benefit Total 3,998,210 1,761,960 526,600 256,650 1,453,000 Jobseeker 1,268,790 944,950 240,460 55,360 28,030 Haltemprice Incapacity 2,072,110 621,380 168,610 120,950 1,161,180 and Howden benefits Total 3,280 1,440 300 200 1,340 Lone parents 500,790 137,960 95,680 66,460 200,690 Jobseeker 1,200 1,030 100 50 10 Carers 107,800 26,150 16,700 11,710 53,250 Incapacity 1,740 270 130 120 1,220 Others on 48,720 31,530 5,160 2,180 9,840 benefits income-related Lone parents 260 100 50 30 70 benefit Carers 60 10 10 10 30 665W Written Answers3 DECEMBER 2013 Written Answers 666W

Out-of-work benefit claimants by statistical group and duration of oldest claim in However the information requested was collected by England, Yorkshire and the Humber region and Haltemprice and Howden constituency, May 2011 ONS in the 2011 census and they have provided the Duration of oldest claim following table: Up to l 1to2 2to3 3 years All usual residents in England and Wales aged 16 to 24 and 18 to 24 who provide Total year years years and over unpaid care and who are not in education, employment or training, 27 March 2011 Others on 30 20 — — 10 Unpaid carers aged 16 Unpaid carers aged 18 income-related to 24 not in education, to 24 not in education, benefit employment or employment or Notes: training1 training1 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest ten and totals may not sum due to rounding. ‘—’ Denotes nil or negligible. Total 67,401 63,479 2. Statistical group is a hierarchical variable. A person who fits into more than one category will only appear in the top-most one for which they are eligible. Provides 1 to 19 hours 34,465 32,140 3. Out-of-work benefits which are included in this analysis are: Jobseeker’s unpaid care a week allowance (JSA); employment and support allowance (ESA); incapacity Provides 20 to 49 hours 14,240 13,456 benefit and severe disablement allowance (IB/SDA); and income support (IS). unpaid care a week 4. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment and support allowance (ESA) for new claims from October 2008. Provides 50 or more hours 18,696 17,883 5. The duration of claim reflects the longest out-of-work benefit claim for each unpaid care a week person: For the jobseekers statistical group this will be the length of the JSA 1 Economic activity: Economically active (excluding full-time students): claim. For the lone parent, carer, and others on income-related benefit Unemployed, Economically inactive: Retired, Economically inactive: Looking statistical groups this will be the length of the IS claim. For the ESA and after home or family, Economically inactive: Long-term sick or disabled, incapacity benefits claim this will be the length of the IB/SDA or ESA claim if Economically inactive: Other. the person is only claiming that benefit, or the oldest of either the IB/SDA/ Notes: ESA and IS claim if the person is claiming a combination of these benefits. 1. For the purpose of this table, all students, whether economically active or Source: economically inactive, have been excluded. DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate: Work and Pensions 2. In order to protect against disclosure of personal information, records have Longitudinal Study. been swapped between different geographic areas. Some counts will be Unemployment: Carers affected, particularly small counts at the lowest geographies Source: ONS-2011 Census Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of The support offered by the Department to young the number of young adult carers not in education, adult carers will vary according to the carer’s circumstances employment or training; and what steps he is taking to but can include Jobcentre Plus adviser support, training support young adult carers into work. [177842] opportunities and financial assistance. There are Jobcentre Plus advisers trained to understand carers’ needs who Esther McVey: The information requested for the can give advice on local childcare and replacement care number of young adult carers not in education, employment provision to assist a carer when attending appointments or training is not readily available in my department with an adviser or an approved provider, or even starting and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. work.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 3 December 2013

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 759 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— EU and Ukraine ...... 763 continued EU Membership ...... 770 Preventing Sexual Violence Initiative ...... 767 EU Treaty Change ...... 766 Topical Questions ...... 774 European Parliament ...... 759 Trade and Investment (Africa) ...... 760 Gibraltar...... 762 Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.... 765 Iran...... 771 Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.... 774 Middle East ...... 772 Treatment of Prisoners (United States) ...... 769 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 3 December 2013

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 39WS JUSTICE—continued Home of Horseracing Trust (Overdraft) ...... 39WS Convention Against Torture ...... 41WS EU: Unified Patent Court ...... 41WS HEALTH...... 39WS Pharmaceutical Price Regulation Scheme ...... 39WS TRANSPORT ...... 42WS Christopher Irwin (Indemnification)...... 43WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 40WS EU Transport Council ...... 42WS Technical Advisory Board (Triennial Review) ...... 40WS

JUSTICE...... 40WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 44WS Civil Court System Fees...... 40WS Single-tier Pension ...... 44WS PETITION

Tuesday 3 December 2013

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 13P Safety of Headland Road, Leicester...... 13P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 3 December 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 600W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Banks: Pay ...... 600W continued Council Housing: Hampshire...... 629W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 623W EU Grants and Loans...... 630W Aluminium: EU Action...... 623W Families: Disadvantaged ...... 631W Aluminium: Industry ...... 624W Housing: Construction...... 631W Education: Prisons...... 624W Housing: Greater London...... 632W EU Emissions Trading Scheme ...... 625W Housing: Overcrowding ...... 632W Exports ...... 625W ICT ...... 633W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 626W Leasehold...... 633W NHS: Innovation ...... 627W Vacant Land ...... 633W Students: Loans ...... 627W UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 609W Organisation ...... 628W Broadband: Belfast ...... 609W Coventry City Football Club...... 609W CABINET OFFICE...... 654W Culture...... 610W Charitable Donations...... 654W Digital Broadcasting: Radio...... 610W Employment ...... 655W Telecommunications: Hearing Impairment ...... 610W Euthanasia...... 655W UK City of Culture: Londonderry...... 611W Unemployment: Young People...... 656W Wales ...... 611W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 629W DEFENCE...... 636W Caravan Sites ...... 629W Arms Trade...... 636W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HEALTH—continued Military Aircraft ...... 636W NHS: Finance ...... 647W Reserve Forces ...... 637W NHS: Recruitment ...... 647W Shipbuilding...... 638W Secondment ...... 648W Tornado Aircraft...... 638W Staff ...... 648W Trident Submarines...... 639W Tobacco: Packaging ...... 649W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 640W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 595W EDUCATION...... 649W Domestic Violence: Barrow in Furness ...... 595W Children in Care...... 649W Drugs: Misuse...... 596W Children in Care: Missing Persons ...... 649W Human Trafficking ...... 596W Families: Disadvantaged ...... 650W Interpol...... 596W Higher Education: Scholarships...... 650W Knives: Crime ...... 597W Priority School Building Programme ...... 651W Ministers’ Private Offices ...... 597W School Information (England) (Amendment) Secondment ...... 597W Regulations 2012...... 651W Vetting ...... 598W Schools: Bradford ...... 651W Science: Education ...... 652W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 598W Special Educational Needs...... 652W Written Questions ...... 598W Teachers: Trade Unions ...... 653W Teachers: Training...... 653W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 622W Young People ...... 654W Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 622W Developing Countries: Childbirth...... 623W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 611W Israel...... 623W Electoral Registration Officers ...... 611W Philippines ...... 623W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 633W JUSTICE...... 612W Biofuels...... 633W Freedom of Information Act 2000 ...... 612W Charitable Donations...... 634W Human Trafficking: Victim Support Schemes ...... 613W Energy: Northern Ireland...... 634W Judiciary ...... 616W Energy: Prices ...... 634W Ministers’ Private Offices ...... 618W ICT ...... 635W Parole...... 618W Secondment ...... 635W Prisons: Doncaster...... 619W Wind Power: Seas and Oceans ...... 635W Prisons: Greater London...... 619W Prisons: Security ...... 620W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Victim Support ...... 620W AFFAIRS...... 600W Victim Support Schemes ...... 621W Air Pollution: Bristol...... 600W Canal and River Trust...... 601W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 595W Common Agricultural Policy ...... 601W Written Questions ...... 595W Discrimination ...... 601W Fly-grazing...... 602W TRANSPORT ...... 603W Food: Waste...... 602W Goring and Streatley Station...... 603W Poultry: Animal Welfare ...... 603W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 603W M18 ...... 604W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 593W Railways: Standards...... 605W EU Enlargement ...... 593W Roads: Yorkshire and the Humber...... 605W Foreign Relations...... 594W Gaza ...... 593W TREASURY ...... 606W Iraq...... 594W Banks: Loans ...... 606W Israel...... 594W Banks: Pay ...... 606W Kashmir...... 595W Child Benefit...... 606W Palestinian Child Detainees: Israel...... 593W Children: Day Care ...... 607W UK-Israeli Co-operation: International Community Amateur Sports Clubs Scheme...... 607W Development...... 593W Employment ...... 608W Public Expenditure...... 608W HEALTH...... 641W Revenue and Customs: Newry ...... 608W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 641W Sovereignty: Scotland...... 608W Care Homes ...... 641W Depressive Illnesses...... 642W WALES...... 599W General Practitioners: East Midlands ...... 642W Winter Fuel Payments...... 599W Health Services: Veterans...... 643W Health Visitors...... 643W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 657W Hospitals: Food ...... 644W Crisis Loans ...... 657W Hyperactivity ...... 644W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 657W Hyperactivity: Young People...... 645W Employment Services...... 658W ICT ...... 645W Housing Benefit: Social Rented Housing ...... 658W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 645W Jobcentre Plus ...... 660W Malnutrition: Young People...... 646W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 660W Mental Illness: Young People...... 646W Pension Funds ...... 660W NHS: Awards...... 648W Personal Independence Payment...... 661W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Poverty: Children ...... 661W Unemployment Benefits...... 663W Social Fund...... 662W Unemployment: Carers...... 665W State Retirement Pensions...... 662W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 10 December 2013

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 3 December 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 759] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 781]

PISA Results [Col. 782] Statement—(Michael Gove)

Decarbonisation [Col. 801] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Ian Murray)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First Time

Opposition Day [14th allotted day] Cyber-bullying [Col. 804] Motion—(David Simpson) agreed to Persecution of Christians [Col. 841] Motion—(Jim Shannon)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 886]

Newry HMRC Centre [Col. 888] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Royal Navy Ships [Col. 187WH] Mayfields New Town [Col. 209WH] Local Authority Funding [Col. 216WH] Government Contracts [Col. 238WH] Roaccutane [Col. 248WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 39WS]

Petition [Col. 13P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 593W] [see index inside back page]