Monday Volume 589 15 December 2014 No. 80

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday 15 December 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1099 15 DECEMBER 2014 1100

Kris Hopkins: As I have said, we will make an House of Commons announcement in due course. It is important to reiterate that local authorities, which know the challenges facing Monday 15 December 2014 their communities, have the opportunity to make choices and set the priorities they think are appropriate.

The House met at half-past Two o’clock Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): The loss of the welfare assistance fund has left many families fleeing domestic abuse in the south-west—in particular, PRAYERS women and children—facing considerable hardship, as local authorities find it difficult to find the funds to support such relationship breakdown. Is the Minister [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] satisfied that enough is being done nationally to understand the needs at local level? Will he explain why the south-west seems to have had the greatest losses?

Oral Answers to Questions Kris Hopkins: If there is a particular issue with domestic violence, the hon. Lady is more than welcome to write to me. The Government recognise that dealing with domestic violence is extremely important. Additional COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT money has been put in place to support that provision.

The Secretary of State was asked— LED Street Lighting

Welfare Assistance Schemes 2. Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): If he will estimate the potential energy and financial savings 1. Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): What steps which could be made through local authorities installing his Department is taking to ensure the future of local LED street lighting. [906609] welfare assistance schemes. [906608] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Stephen Williams): Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): We do not collect this information centrally. However, The Government have consulted on how to fund local we know that two-thirds of councils have already switched welfare provision in 2015-16. The Department for to low-energy street lighting. That will save council tax Communities and Local Government, with the Treasury payers’ money and have the double benefit of reducing and the Department for Work and Pensions, is analysing carbon emissions. responses, alongside the DWP review into current provision. The Government will make a decision by the provisional Sir Bob Russell: I thank the Minister for that very local government finance settlement. thoughtful reply, which I am sure will be listened to with great interest at County Hall in Chelmsford, where Sir Nick Harvey: The Minister will be aware of the the county council has had a blackout policy from excellent work of discretionary schemes. In my constituency midnight. Will the Minister agree to meet me and a alone, 446 people in desperate situations were helped in company near Colchester that is in the market of producing the past year. Will he please ensure that councils facing LED lights that would be of financial benefit to the a particularly tough financial situation will receive funds taxpayer? and that he will bring forward something positive for them in the local government finance settlement? Otherwise, Stephen Williams: I am always delighted to meet my that vital work will be lost. hon. Friend. If he wants to bring someone along to meet me I would be happy to accommodate him. However, Kris Hopkins: I recognise the work of local councils I am advised that Essex county council is about to in helping individuals who are in very vulnerable situations. embark on a £1 million pilot scheme to introduce There will be an announcement on the local government energy-saving LED streetlights in six areas of the council. finance settlement. We will take into account what the I am sure my hon. Friend will be pleased to hear that, as hon. Gentleman says, but I point out that there is a £94 a result, I am sure, of his campaigning, that includes billion welfare safety net. We have given local authorities Colchester. the opportunity to use their resources in whichever way they think is appropriate. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The point about LED lights is that not only do they use a very John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): When small amount of electricity while generating a lot of the Minister makes the announcement, will he recognise light, they last so long and require little maintenance so that many of the most severely disabled people, who that they require very few people to tend to them during depend on the independent living fund, flourish with the life of the light bulb. Has the Minister factored the independence it gives them? The fund is being those cost-savings into his calculations? wound up in March and they are very frightened that they will lose that independence. Will he review the Stephen Williams: The hon. Gentleman makes a very protection available, even at this eleventh hour, and good point. In April, the Campaign to Protect Rural ensure that councils can continue ILF provision in full? England estimated that councils spend more than 1101 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1102

£600 million on street lighting, accounting for 30% of will have had its budget cut by 58%, which is 20% more their carbon emissions. Tackling the remaining street than the national average, and it has reserves of only lights not using LED will reduce carbon emissions and £39 million—down from £125 million—so what is his cut the maintenance costs he mentions. assessment of the impact of his Department’s cuts on the city of Liverpool? Local Authority Finance Kris Hopkins: The councils facing the most demands 3. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): What assessment he are receiving the most money and will continue to do so. has made of the recommendations of the report by the It is exceptional that a great city such as Liverpool is National Audit Office entitled, “Financial Sustainability standing up and recognising its potential and how it can of Local Authorities 2014”, published in November get itself out of the financial difficulties it faces. The 2014, HC 783. [906610] fact that it is confident about its city deal, which will result in 15,000 jobs and 16,000 houses, as a consequence 5. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): of its leadership, and the fact that it is growing its What assessment he has made of the implications for business base and drawing down significant amounts of his policies of the report published by the National money to support local businesses, demonstrates that Audit Office entitled, “Financial Sustainability of the community understands the direction to go in, even Local Authorities 2014”, published in November 2014, if the hon. Lady does not. HC 783; and if he will make a statement. [906612] Mr Betts: Given that this is a report by the independent 9. Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): What NAO, should the Minister not be at least a little concerned assessment he has made of the implications for his about some of its findings? It states: policies of the report published by the National Audit “The Department has a limited understanding of the financial Office entitled, “Financial Sustainability of Local sustainability of local authorities and the extent to which they Authorities 2014”, published in November 2014, HC may be at risk of financial failure” 783; and if he will make a statement. [906616] and “does not monitor the impact of funding reductions on services 17. Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab): What in a coordinated way.” assessment he has made of the implications for his Is that not a damning indictment? If the Government policies of the report published by the National Audit continue with these policies, some councils will get into Office entitled, “Financial Sustainability of Local serious financial difficulties, and they will get there with Authorities 2014”, published in November 2014, HC 783; the Government apparently unaware and seemingly and if he will make a statement. [906625] uninterested. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): Kris Hopkins: No local authority has not been able to Every part of the public sector needs to do its bit to pay secure its budget, and each year, as dramas and challenges off the deficit left by the last Labour Government, have arisen, they have faced them and dealt with them. including local government, which accounts for a quarter Furthermore, we should not forget that about £2.1 billion of all public spending. The National Audit Office report is lost to error or fraud and that, despite the challenges, recognises that local authorities as a whole have coped local authorities have managed to grow their reserve well with spending reductions, with many increasing base to £21.2 billion. their financial reserves. The Government will continue to support local councils to transform local services, cut Mr Steve Reed: A transformation of services is waste, tackle fraud and achieve better outcomes for fundamental to delivering savings on the scale required, local people. but the NAO report states that the “The Department has not…estimated the capacity of local John Pugh: I admire the Minister’s calm, but the authorities to carry out widespread service transformation. Nor report says that half the local authority auditors, never has it estimated…the level of savings such projects could realistically mind the politicians, have grave concerns. Given that, make, how long this would take, or the potential impact on service users.” and given that Labour itself wants to take £500 million out of local authority finance, is it not time for a Why did the Minister not ensure that this vital work wholesale review of local authority finance? was carried out?

Kris Hopkins: The record shows that the vast majority Kris Hopkins: The money we put forward to support of people believe that local authorities offer a good transformation in councils has been welcomed right service, and local authorities have achieved significant across the country—in fact, more councils have applied outcomes despite the reductions. Furthermore, the than we have money for—and, as for outcomes, for Government have prioritised the ability of local authorities every £1 put in, £10 is saved. We know what we are to grow their budgets by developing local businesses, doing, and local authorities are leading the way in which has brought in significant money to those driving these savings. establishments—£11 billion has been retained in business rates alone. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): It is now two years since the Department published its guidance, entitled Luciana Berger: The NAO found that the Minister’s “50 ways to save”, on how local government could Department did not understand the impact of its cuts make savings. Does the Minister have any plans to issue on local authority services. By 2017, Liverpool council a second edition of this booklet, taking into account all 1103 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1104 the new ways in which councils, particularly Conservative House Building councils, have come up with to save money since the first edition was issued? 4. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): What guidance his Department has given to local Kris Hopkins: That is a pertinent question, and a new authorities on steps they can take to increase the rate at booklet has just been published that demonstrates how which new homes are built. [906611] Conservative councils are leading the way in saving money and driving up services. I will make sure that my The Minister of State, Department for Communities hon. Friend gets a copy. and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): We have just extended the affordable homes programme—a total of Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): In every one of the £38 billion-worth of public and private investment, four years in which I was a Minister at the Department together ensuring that 275,000 new affordable homes for the Environment, we were told by the Opposition will be built between 2015 and 2020. Council housing that our local government spending settlement would starts are at a 23-year high, and we expect the independent lead to the end of civilisation as we know it. Somehow review into councils’ role in housing supply to report local government continued and civilisation continued. very soon. Does my hon. Friend think that if local government manages better and cuts waste, it should be able to deal Mr Cunningham: Does the Secretary of State agree with an average 2.9% reduction in spending in 2014-15 with me that greenfield sites can be very highly valued without any serious hit on services? by local residents and are important for protecting natural habitats and heritage? As we look to build the Kris Hopkins: My right hon. Friend is right. Businesses much-needed houses, will he take steps to assist local out there face these reductions and challenges all the authorities to make sure that brownfield sites and inner-city time, and local authorities have risen to the challenge spaces are fully exhausted before any greenfield sites are and are delivering good services, which are rated highly built on? by the public—despite the challenges out there. We have faced difficult circumstances as a consequence of the Brandon Lewis: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. He previous Labour Government who drove the economy is absolutely right that local authorities should be looking into the ground. Local government is responding to the to develop brownfield sites first. In fact, we are looking challenge of addressing those needs. at that with the new starter homes programme that the Prime Minister announced today. We have also put in Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): The Minister’s more money over the summer to encourage local authorities shockingly complacent response today underlines the to develop those brownfield sites first and to make them NAO’s findings that the Department has more viable. “a limited understanding of the financial sustainability of local authorities and the extent to which they may be at risk of Sir Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): As my hon. financial failure…does not monitor the impact of funding reductions Friend knows, Mid Sussex is making a great attempt to on services in a coordinated way”— cope with the extraordinary demand for housing in the and, even worse—that the Department’s approach south-east. Does he agree that a rule allowing the “obscures”the “substantial differences between authorities”. Planning Inspectorate to accept housing development Does the Minister have a clue about the real impact of only when there is adequate housing infrastructure to his massive cuts to local government? support it would make a great difference to building in the south? Kris Hopkins: I think there was a question in there. We understand that there are huge challenges facing Brandon Lewis: That is a very good point. It is local authorities, but it is local auditors and local councils important for local authorities and developers to ensure that are making the choices about priorities at this time, that the infrastructure is there to support housing addressing the needs of the vulnerable people who need development, and authorities will seek to do that as to be helped. I am confident that local authorities will part of the planning process and, indeed, as part of continue to deliver high-quality services, despite the their own local-plan process. That is another example fact that resources are currently limited. of how important it is for local authorities to have local plans in place. Andy Sawford: The truth, as this damning report by the NAO shows, is that the Government do not know Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP): If and do not care about the impact of the cuts on the Medway council had acted properly in approving the ground. Across the country, street lights have been building of 5,000 houses in a bird sanctuary at Lodge turned off, bus services cut, lollipop patrols stopped, Hill, would the Minister have needed to write to the children’s centres closed and care services withdrawn. council offering his guidance on the need for an evidence Will the Minister come clean and admit that this is just base to be submitted to him by 12 January? the start of what it really means to take Britain back to the 1930s? Brandon Lewis: The hon. Gentleman has stood in the House in the past and argued in favour of that development, Kris Hopkins: This House knows, I know and councils but he has now changed his position. He and I have not out there know that the reason why we have had to had a conversation about the matter, and I think that make the difficult decisions to make sure this country that is the right approach, given that it involves a lives within its means is a direct consequence of Labour’s quasi-judicial planning process and the application is incompetence and economic illiteracy. still live. 1105 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1106

Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Although The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for both unemployment and homelessness are at an Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): extraordinarily low level in North Wiltshire, we are My Department has worked with Merseyside partners being told that we must have thousands of unwanted to ensure that individuals and businesses are signposted new houses—particularly in the Chippenham area— to business support. My Department’s demand notice followed by factories to give jobs to the people who will will not seek to reclaim any of the money from the live in those new houses. While it is fine for houses to be 17 supporting organisations which operated in good built where they are needed, surely central Government faith throughout the process. should allow areas such as mine, where housing and jobs are roughly in balance, not to have them. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): I am sure that the Minister believes what she has said, but it is not Brandon Lewis: As my hon. Friend will no doubt entirely accurate, and it does not entirely answer the appreciate, this Government ended the top-down approach question. Social Enterprise North West has been ordered adopted by the Labour Government, getting rid of the to pay back nearly £1.5 million, although it observed regional spatial strategies. It is now entirely for local the funding requirements that were laid down by her authorities to make evidence-based assessments of local own Department, and hundreds of jobs and businesses housing development needs, and then to consider how are endangered as a result. Has she received representations they can provide for them. Decisions should be locally from councillors, Members of Parliament, Members of driven, with local people in mind. the European Parliament and local businesses—I have been told that she has—and what will she do to right Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): If what the her Department’s wrong? Minister has just said is correct, why did his own planning inspectors suggest to Knowsley council that it Penny Mordaunt: It is not just a question of our should consider using up green-belt land for future accounting requirements; it is a question of the European housing development as part of its local-plan process? Commission’s rules, and they are perfectly clear. Failing to provide evidence of the way in which money is spent Brandon Lewis: I have not seen the details of that puts funding at risk, and it is totally unacceptable that case, but if the right hon. Gentleman forwards them to Social Enterprise North West cannot provide proper me, I shall be happy to look at them. In my experience, accounts for that public money. However, I can give the planning inspectors tend to challenge local authorities hon. Gentleman some reassurance. We will not be recouping about their evidence bases. The national planning policy money from the 17 supporting contractors which operated framework makes it clear that green belt constitutes an in good faith, no match funding has been lost, and the environmental constraint, and local authorities can use money from the European regional development fund such constraints as evidence bases when it comes to that is being returned from the project will be reinvested what they can actually provide. It is for them to do the in other existing business support services in the Liverpool research, build those evidence bases, and make their city region. case. Social Care Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): The Minister recently suggested that councils did not need local plans, and that there was no role for central 7. Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): What Government if they failed to adopt one. As he knows, additional support he is providing to local authorities however, without local plans communities have absolutely to meet the demand for social care. [906614] no say in where new houses are built. If he is really serious about local people deciding, why does he think The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for that councils do not need local plans, and why will he Communities and Local Government (Stephen Williams): not back our proposals to make it a statutory requirement This Government continue to deliver a fair settlement for every council to have one? to every part of the country. In particular, we have introduced the £5.3 billion better care fund, which Brandon Lewis: I am afraid that the hon. Lady has includes locally agreed plans for protecting adult social got the planning process slightly wrong. Obviously local care services. authorities in all circumstances have a say in planning, which is a quasi-judicial process. Planning applications Meg Munn: Does the Minister not recognise that the go through local authorities. As I have said, there is no better care fund is not new money, but is money taken need for a statutory rule, because it is in authorities’ from existing budgets? There are more people with own best interests to have local plans, which mean local more needs. Does the Minister not recognise that providing involvement and local decisions about what development small amounts of low-level services to carers, who are should be allowed and where it should be allowed to providing for a lot of those needs, will ensure that most take place. If there is no local plan, those matters will people can continue to be cared for at home, whereas fall within the national planning policy framework. now many people are facing difficulties in caring, and we will see elderly and disabled people living without Social Enterprise North West dignity?

6. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): What Stephen Williams: The hon. Lady makes a perfectly assessment he has made of the effect of his Department’s fair point. Many Members in all parts of the House demand for a repayment from Social Enterprise North recognise the vital work that carers do in supporting West on local businesses and services in the North West their loved ones, and I have been particularly struck by of England. [906613] children who care for brothers and sisters or parents. I 1107 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1108 certainly agree with the hon. Lady on that. In terms of of CCTV spy cameras, introducing grace periods, and resources, in the spending review the Government put giving local residents and firms new rights to demand a an extra £470 million into supporting the Care Act review of yellow lines and parking charges in their area. 2014, and of course in the autumn statement a further £2 billion was announced to support the national health Nick de Bois: Over-zealous parking enforcement by service. these methods, and in particular by mobile cameras in Enfield’s Hertford road, is one of the most damaging 15. [906623] George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): practices to shops and shopkeepers, and the more so The accident and emergency department at Queen because Labour-controlled Enfield council is reducing Alexandra hospital in Portsmouth continues to the number of parking spaces. What advice does my struggle to meet its four-hour waiting time targets. right hon. Friend have for this council to put shoppers Does my hon. Friend agree that, as part of the solution and high streets first? to this problem, the local NHS and the surrounding providers of care, the local authorities, must work Mr Pickles: On my visit to my hon. Friend’s constituency, together much more closely, particularly on the subject he was kind enough to show me Hertford road, which of discharge? does not have a very easy trading environment. We have placed an obligation on local authorities to look after Stephen Williams: I absolutely agree that it is essential local businesses, and we know that that plays an enormously that local authorities and the health service work together important part in people’s management of their shops. I to provide a seamless service for patients as they leave would simply urge Enfield council to get together with hospital and come into the care of local authorities. local traders to ensure that people do not have to drive That is precisely what the better care fund is about. I am further and further from Enfield to do their shopping. advised that the last round table in my hon. Friend’s district took place on Friday. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Will the Secretary of State join me and many Congleton residents in objecting Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): Is to proposals to introduce parking charges at Congleton the Minister aware that, despite having cuts to its spending War Memorial hospital for the first time? That plan is power of about twice the national average, Birmingham likely to increase, rather than decrease, local parking is increasing its child protection budget? To ensure that congestion, and rather than benefiting patients and other forms of social care do not suffer as a result and their families it will in all likelihood benefit the car park to meet Birmingham’s long-term needs, some additional charging company through aggressive fines. support is required. Will the Minister agree, perhaps in conjunction with colleagues from the Department for Mr Pickles: I have a War Memorial hospital in my Education, to meet a delegation from Birmingham to own constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for look at what is possible? Harlow (Robert Halfon) has been vocal in pressing local health authorities on this practice, which particularly Stephen Williams: Birmingham city council has obviously affects people who are visiting patients who are in had considerable difficulties recently, which the Department hospital for a long stay. It does not seem to be the most has been heavily involved in trying to solve, but if the sensible way of raising funds. hon. Gentleman has specific proposals to put forward and would like to write to me or the Secretary of State, I Homelessness and Rough Sleeping am sure that we will look at them very carefully. 10. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I What assessment he has made of trends in the level of understand that the Chancellor announced that the (a) homelessness and (b) rough sleeping. [906617] inheritance tax threshold will be frozen until 2017 and the money raised thereby will be put into social care. Is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for that part of the money my hon. Friend just announced, Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): or is that additional? Homelessness is lower now than in 27 of the last 30 years, and since this time last year we have seen a 38% decrease Stephen Williams: That would be additional money, I in the number of families in bed and breakfast for more believe, but just under £2 billion in additional support than six weeks. This Government have supported innovation was announced for the national health service in the through the roll-out of No Second Night Out and autumn statement, money that I am sure will be well StreetLink, which means that rough sleepers are being received and well spent. found more quickly and given the help they need to get them off the streets. Parking Enforcement Lilian Greenwood: The Minister’s response is astonishing. 8. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): What steps he Under this Government, we have seen disproportionate is taking to stop unfair parking enforcement practices. cuts to the Supporting People funding, the disappearance [906615] of street outreach workers and an increase in homelessness and rough sleeping of more than a third. The number of The Secretary of State for Communities and Local homeless families in Nottingham has risen by a quarter Government (Mr Eric Pickles): Councils are making a in the past year alone. What assurances can the Minister profit of £667 million a year from parking. That is give me that the proposed review of exempt accommodation unacceptable, so this Government are bringing forward to be conducted jointly by his Department and the a series of measures to make local parking fairer for Department for Work and Pensions will not result in residents and shoppers. This includes curtailing the use this disgraceful situation becoming even worse? 1109 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1110

Kris Hopkins: This Government are tackling other areas to help hard-pressed families, pensioners homelessness using funds from welfare reform, with and individuals by supporting them with their cost of access to some £1 billion. I should like to make a living and to ensure that the London borough of Barnet comparison between our record and that of the previous protects front-line services? Government. There were 136 homeless acceptances in Nottingham this year compared with 493 under the Mr Pickles: I commend Barnet for freezing council previous Administration at peak. This year, 90 households tax for four successive years. It proves that councils can are in temporary accommodation compared with 391 under run their services efficiently and encourage growth without Labour, and as a consequence of this Government’s increasing taxes on local people. The council tax went intervention, there are no people in bed and breakfast. from being a modest sum in people’s budgets to being absolutely overbearing, and it is exactly right that the Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Earlier in most vulnerable people—pensioners and the like—have the autumn, my hon. Friend the Minister visited Chester benefited from this freeze. to see some of the homelessness provision there. He saw some first-rate services, but he also heard that homeless 20. [906628] Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): people were leaving other council areas, including Liverpool I thank my right hon. Friend for his earlier reply. As and Wrexham, to come to Chester to take advantage of council tax is such a large bill, especially for those on our services. What will he do to ensure that Labour fixed incomes, will he congratulate my local South councils fulfil their obligations in the same way as Tory Derbyshire district council on keeping its council tax at ones do? a zero increase for the past four years? We hope that this year’s settlement from the Government will help it Kris Hopkins: I recognise the caring work undertaken achieve a record five years of frozen council tax. by my hon. Friend’s Conservative-led council to look after those vulnerable people. It is not appropriate for Mr Pickles: On behalf of the Government, I say bless local authorities, of whatever political badge, to bus you, South Derbyshire. You have done a fantastic job. people from one authority area to another. You have looked after the coffers very carefully and you have fulfilled good quality services at a reasonable cost, Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Last without going for the incremental rise every year. year, the then Housing Minister, the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), said: House Building “There is absolutely no excuse for families to be sent miles away without proper regard for their circumstances…The law is 12. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): clear: councils have a responsibility to take into account people’s What progress he has made on delivering large-scale jobs and schools when securing homes for those in need.” housing sites. [906619] Why, then, has the number of families being housed outside their local area increased by almost one third in 16. Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland this past year alone, and what is the Minister going to West) (Lab): What progress he has made on delivering do about it? large-scale housing sites. [906624]

Kris Hopkins: I reiterate that it is against the law for 18. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): What councils to move numbers of individuals wholesale to progress he has made on delivering large-scale housing other authorities, but I would point out that 14,220 out- sites. [906626] of-district placements, equating to 93% of the total, took place in London local authorities. The Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): We are making Council Tax excellent progress in helping to deliver large-scale housing sites. Through long-term loans for infrastructure, capacity 11. Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): What steps funding and brokerage, we have helped unlock or accelerate his Department is taking to freeze council tax charges more than 90,000 homes to date, and a further for 2015-16. [906618] 200,000 homes could be unlocked or accelerated on sites shortlisted for investment and wider support. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): Under Labour, council Mr Sheerman: There are so many hard-working people tax more than doubled. Under this Government, it has in this country, including many firefighters, who would fallen by 11% in real terms. Further funding will be listen to that reply and not be able to believe the available to freeze council tax in 2015-16, which will complacency. We have a Department with no leadership, mean five consecutive years of freeze funding since no vision and no ambition, when we need a million new 2011-12. That is worth £1,075 for an average household homes for our elderly people and for our young people, over this Parliament. An announcement on the detail of who have no chance of a home. This Government will this will be made shortly. face the wrath of those people at the next general election. Dr Offord: I am very grateful for the Secretary of State’s response. My hon. Friend the Member for Finchley Brandon Lewis: As before, I am sure there was a and Golders Green (Mike Freer) and I had the tremendous question in there somewhere. [Interruption.] And the problem of keeping council tax down in the London audience agree. I find the hon. Gentleman’s follow-up borough of Barnet under the last Labour Government. point slightly bizarre, in the sense that this Government What steps will the Government take to continue in have provided roughly 700,000 new homes in the past 1111 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1112 four or five years, including more council houses than Labour-controlled Nuneaton and Bedworth borough were built in the entire period of the previous Labour council has failed to bring forward a local plan, whereas Government. Rugby borough council has had its local plan in place for some time, and has brought forward a site for 6,000 Mrs Hodgson: But the truth is that the Government new homes at the Rugby radio site. are simply not building enough affordable homes. The number of homes built for social rent over the past year Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a good point. is the lowest it has been for 20 years, so it is little Rugby is an excellent example of a good, well-run surprise that the waiting list in Sunderland has increased council, which seeks to support growth and to provide on their watch, whereas it more than halved under homes for local people. It is important that local areas, Labour. Thankfully, these Ministers have less than five in conjunction with the community, work out their months left in post, but may we have a little more action housing need, make provision for it, and take advantage from them, even in those five months, and a lot fewer of the £1.5 billion that we are putting in to help unlock re-announcements of yet more empty announcements? those kinds of sites. Brandon Lewis: I simply point the hon. Lady to the facts: we have now delivered around 220,000 affordable Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP): The coalition homes in this Parliament, and there will be 165,000 over came to office promising localism whereby locally elected the next three years. It will be the fastest rate of building councillors would decide on large-scale housing we have seen in more than 20 years, having inherited developments. In Tendring, the Government have now from the last Labour Government the lowest level of insisted on an extra 12,000 houses. How is that localism? building since 1923. It was an absolute disgrace what was left by the last Government. Brandon Lewis: That is not how the system works. We do not have top-down targets. We got rid of the regional Alex Cunningham: My constituents are concerned spatial strategies. It is up to the local authority to work that if more houses are ever to be built on Teesside out its housing needs and to look at the evidence base to again in substantial numbers, more farmland could be see what it can provide locally, taking into account any swallowed up even though countless brownfield sites environmental constraints. are available. Many of these already have planning permission, yet developers have left them derelict for Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): donkey’s years. What steps is the Minister planning to The recent designation of Bicester as a garden city take to get action from such developers? What will he brings not a single new home to the table, as Bicester do if they refuse to bring these kinds of sites, many of had already planned for and started to build 13,000 new them close to our town centres, back into use? homes as outlined in its local plan. Is it not time that the Government thought seriously about how to deliver our Brandon Lewis: As I said earlier, we have in fact put much needed new settlements rather than simply some money in over the course of the summer—a few repackaging existing developments? hundred millions pounds—to encourage brownfield development. We are also now looking at the housing Brandon Lewis: With respect, I think the hon. Lady zones, and we will be making some announcements on has missed the point. Bicester itself came forward and that fairly soon to make sure we get these sites unlocked. wanted to develop on garden city principles. When I When local authorities are developing their local plans, was there last week, officials showed me around the they are making sure that they are delivering viable sites excellent work that the local authority is doing to to provide the houses we all want to see built. release some of the land, including looking at the Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): Leeds city council has infrastructure to see how they can make it possible. We divided the city into areas in order to set the house are not following a top-down approach. I appreciate building targets, and in Aireborough the vast majority that the Labour party wants to have a suit in Whitehall of the sites being considered are in the green belt. I am deciding who builds and where, but we believe in localism. aware that the use of green belt can happen only in Local areas should lead on garden cities. They should “exceptional circumstances”. Will the Minister confirm come to us with the outlines of what they want to do. I what the definition of “exceptional circumstances” is? am talking about local decisions, by local people and for local people. Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a good point about protecting the green belt, which is something that Business Rates we always seek to do. The Secretary of State and I have outlined some further guidance on that in the past few months to make it clear that building on green belt land 13. Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): What is something that we do as a last resort. Indeed, it is one estimate he has made of the number of small firms and of the exceptional circumstances to be taken into account shops in (a) England and (b) Derbyshire local against development to make sure that we protect our authority area which will have a reduction in business green belt. Obviously, every planning application has to rates in 2015-16. [906620] be taken forward and adjudged on its merits by the local authority, planning inspectors and the Department. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Does the Minister agree We do not hold figures for that year, but estimate that one challenge in bringing forward large-scale housing that our retail relief is currently benefiting around sites is the failure of local authorities to allocate sufficient 300,000 premises in England, including 4,700 in Derbyshire. land for housing in their local plan? For example, the We are also doubling small business rate relief for a 1113 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1114 further year, which is currently benefiting around Jason McCartney: Does my hon. Friend agree that it 575,000 businesses, including 12,300 in my hon. Friend’s is totally perverse that Labour-run Kirklees council local authority area. continues to forge ahead with building homes on greenfield sites when there are thousands of empty properties and Pauline Latham: I thank the Minister for her reply. numerous brownfield sites in my beautiful part of west As she knows, Belper in my constituency recently won Yorkshire? the Great British High Street competition of 2014. What measures are the Secretary of State and his Stephen Williams: The national planning policy Department taking so that other towns and high streets framework does indeed incentivise local authorities to can follow in Belper’s footsteps? bring forward brownfield sites first, and the Government want 90% of suitable brownfield land to have permissions Penny Mordaunt: As well as providing rate relief and in place through local development orders by 2020. a raft of other packages, we are helping by instigating With regard to my hon. Friend’s local authority in initiatives such as the Great British High Street competition. Kirklees, there are 718 long-term empties for which it In entering that competition, Belper has enabled us to charges the council tax premium, raising £387,000. If identify good practice, which we are now able to share. it worked with the owners to bring those properties We have produced a publication, which we launched back into use, it would get £783,000 in new homes last week, and we are now rolling out a package of bonus this year, plus £4.7 million over the full six years further training and support for areas in the country that the funding is available. that are not as far ahead as Belper. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): From the Minister’s response, we might think that everything Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Now that the is perfect in the garden, but the Office for National Minister for firefighters is on her feet, and taking into Statistics has shown that over 1 million homes are still account the question about all those shops and businesses, empty. At the same time there are record numbers of will she agree that the firefighters have to deal with people in this country wanting to rent affordable homes. those? If there is a fire, an industrial disaster or a flood, What is he going to do to ensure that local authorities the Government paint a lovely picture of our firefighters that are not using their powers to bring empty homes and the work that they do. Why does she not accept that back into use now do so in order to end this absolute the Government should be leaving their pension alone? scandal of homelessness and empty homes in Britain? Let them keep their pension. Stephen Williams: I do not recognise the figure that Penny Mordaunt: If I can answer that question and the hon. Gentleman cites, but I will have a look at it. My remain in order—[Interruption.] We are obviously debating information is that in England the overall number of this matter later on today. I point out to the hon. vacant properties has fallen from the 770,000 when we Gentleman that the regulations that have been laid are came into office to 635,000 now. I write constantly to an improvement on the 2006 scheme that his party local authorities to remind them of the suite of powers brought in. A recent serious fire in Staffordshire highlighted available for bringing empty homes back into use, and I a really good business liaison programme between fire have gone on a series of visits across the country to and rescue services. Even business that were not directly encourage social enterprises, in particular—I have visited affected by the fire were able to call on those services to Leeds Empties, for example—to work with the community enable them to continue trading. That model should be in order to achieve the double benefit of bringing a rolled out elsewhere. home back into use and getting some social enterprise spin-off benefit. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman was characteristically ingenious in the construction of his Firefighters Pension Scheme question, and we are grateful to him—I say that in all sincerity—but I advise the House that it was in any case my intention to get to Question 19, and I remain 19. Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): cautiously optimistic that we shall do so. What estimate he has made of the number of firefighters who will retire early on medical grounds with a reduced pension after the introduction of the Empty Homes new firefighters pension scheme. [906627]

14. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for assessment he has made of the rate of change in the Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): number of empty homes since May 2010. [906622] Any firefighter who retires early on medical grounds, owing to being permanently unable to undertake their The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for role, will be entitled to take their pension without a Communities and Local Government (Stephen Williams): reduction. Our final scheme provides a better pension The number of homes empty for more than six months for those firefighters than the alternative scheme for is now at its lowest level since records began. This which the Fire Brigades Union is lobbying. Government have achieved a year-on-year reduction in long-term empty homes through council tax incentives Jim Fitzpatrick: The Minister said on 10 November such as the new homes bonus, opportunities to increase that no firefighter who fails to meet the standard would council tax and a Government programme of £200 million lose their job, yet Dr Tony Williams, who was appointed for empty homes funding. by the Government to assess the regulations, has said 1115 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1116 that two thirds of firefighters will not make the cut. transparent, and sometimes some authorities are not. How can she reconcile those two opposing views and But there can be no excuse for persecuting a public cost firefighters over 20% of their pension? official. The Freedom of Information Act 2000 lays down guidance with regard to vexatious claims. I understand Penny Mordaunt: That is not what Dr Williams said. that my right hon. Friend intends to write to me and I The 2006 scheme, which was introduced under the will look at the case very carefully. previous Labour Government, has had firefighters working until 60. They have been working under the pension Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): May I start by scheme with no protections if they fail a fitness test and expressing the Opposition’s concern about the situation are unable to continue their operational role through no in Sydney today? Our thoughts are with all the people fault of their own. We are introducing those protections. who appear to have been taken hostage and with their There is a written ministerial statement today and a families. statutory instrument will appear tomorrow, and it will guarantee, placing on a statutory footing—obviously We are all aware of the threat posed by Islamism, the firefighters are entitled to ill health retirement—that if extremist ideology that wrongly claims to be informed there is not an underlying medical condition and they by Islam and which attempts to recruit and radicalise cannot pass the fitness test, either they will receive an our citizens. Can the right hon. Gentleman update the alternative role or the authority will have to initiate a House on what his Department is doing with faith pension. groups to help identify and deal with the sources of extremism and radicalisation in our communities? Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I have read the ministerial statement that has been placed in the Library Mr Pickles: I commend the right hon. Gentleman for this afternoon. It sets out the requirement for local his statement about events in Sydney. Our primary authorities to consider an authority-initiated retirement. thoughts must be with the hostages, but I am sure the Can my hon. Friend confirm that it is her intention that right hon. Gentleman will be as heartened as I am by under these circumstances firefighters will be guaranteed the response to the worries expressed by Muslims in an authority-initiated retirement? Australia about travelling on public transport, and the “I’ll ride with you”campaign, whereby Australian citizens Penny Mordaunt: Absolutely. We are very clear in the are standing by the Muslim community and ensuring ministerial statement that we have tabled today and in that Muslims feel they are good Australians. the guidance that will accompany it that that is what we We have spent about £45 million on integration projects expect to happen. In addition, because I recognise that since 2010 and an extra £11 million to support 29 projects firefighters need those safeguards, my Department will this year, but I expect the right hon. Gentleman is more carry out an audit. concerned about work with specific groups. Indeed, we have given priority to working with groups in east Topical Questions London, east Birmingham and along the M62 corridor. We work closely with them and with various other T1. [906599] Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) groups in the spirit of “not in their name”, to show that (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental we recognise the full strength of the Islamic community’s responsibilities. love of peace. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles): Some 180,000 homeowners Hilary Benn: Interfaith dialogue of the type that the have bought or reserved a property during this Parliament Secretary of State describes with mainstream religious through one of the Government-backed schemes. Our groups is important. The problem is that radical Islamists support for home ownership also prompted a sharp are not part of it, and Muslim communities are just as increase in house building to a six-year high. Today we keen as others to know what he is doing to help them are setting out the next step of our long-term economic identify, isolate and deal with the conditions in which plan to improve the housing market. The starter homes such an ideology develops. Does he agree that it is now programme will offer 100,000 first-time buyers the time for his Department to focus its efforts on helping opportunity to buy a new home with a 20% discount. families to stop the radicalisation of their children and on promoting greater mutual understanding so as to Alistair Burt: I thank my right hon. Friend for that undermine the corrosive effects of Islamism, which so statement. Has he received much communication from damages our values and our democracy? some of our smaller councils—town and parish councils— about the pressure they are under from vexatious freedom Mr Pickles: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. I of information requests, inappropriate pressure from intend to put out a written parliamentary statement members of the public, and sometimes problems of that lays out the full breadth of what we have been resolving their difficulties with a monitoring council, doing to deal with this issue. The empowerment of such as those between Arlesey and Central Bedfordshire women and of families in knowing what is going on on in my constituency? Does such a problem arise rather the web is a recognition of how things have changed. more often these days? Those who expect this to come out of the mosque are living in a past world. This battle is fought on the Mr Pickles: It is not a general problem, though we internet and by modern methods of communication. Of have come across it. I know that my right hon. Friend is course, as always, I will keep the right hon. Gentleman very disturbed by it. The best way to avoid freedom of and his hon. Friends completely informed about what information requests is to be open, straightforward and we do. 1117 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1118

T2. [906600] Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Penny Mordaunt: Again, the hon. Lady needs to be My right hon. Friend will be aware that Labour Front aware of the facts. We are taking account of the Williams Benchers appear to have a plan to impose a homes tax report. We are putting in place protections that firefighters on people earning more than £42,000, and this is causing have not had before, including for those on the 2006 great concern to my constituents in Wimbledon. I note scheme, which requires them to work until 60. They are that all Labour’s mayoral candidates for London have entitled to ill health retirement, as before, on an enhanced disowned the plan. Does he agree, first, that this tax is basis. Those who are unable to retain their fitness as inequitable, and secondly, that our Government would they age—this is specifically for older workers—will get never impose such an inequitable tax on my voters? another role or an unreduced pension. [Interruption.] Those are the facts. If there is no operational role, they Mr Pickles: We certainly have no intention of persecuting will get an unreduced pension. We need to get that the good people of Wimbledon; nor do we intend to message out to firefighters, because they are going to be make people suddenly find themselves in a mansion making decisions about their financial future based on that they did not realise they owned. These are people their understanding of the scheme, and it would be who bought a property a few years ago and whose quite wrong to mislead them on that. incomes have not gone up, but now Labour apparently wants to take £3,000 or £4,000 from them every year. T5. [906603] Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): Small independent shops are the lifeblood of our high T3. [906601] Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): Those streets and I am glad to say, with Christmas just who risk their lives to protect us deserve a decent around the corner, that Worcester’s independent pension. Will the Minister explain why firefighters have retailers say they are seeing increased footfall and that recently been on strike in England, but not in Scotland they are looking forward to their £1,500 discount on or in Wales? business rates next year. Will the Minister confirm that reforming business rates and discounts to small The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for businesses can, alongside cuts to job taxes, help small Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): businesses drive the economic recovery? I am afraid there are some myths about what is happening in the other nations. Industrial action is taking place in Penny Mordaunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. the other nations; they have not settled. In fact, many May I take this opportunity to congratulate Worcester aspects of England’s scheme are better. We will have a on being a finalist in the great British high street full debate on the issue this afternoon, when I hope that competition? In addition to the discount he mentioned, we will able to put some of the myths to bed. the autumn statement also doubled small business rate relief for a further year and maintained the 2% cap on T4. [906602] Mr Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): the inflation increase for next year. I am sure that all Langho, one of my pleasant villages in beautiful Ribble those things will help Worcester potentially to take the Valley, has recently had three hideous wind turbines prize next year. imposed on it by appeal, against the wishes of local people, the local council, and, indeed, me. Will the Minister assure us that, in future, planning inspectors T9. [906607] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): When a will give far more weight to localism and to the views useless Government Minister is sacked, including by of local people before deciding to impose hideous the electorate, they get a huge pay out and a massive industrial furniture on a local community? pension. Why is there one rule for the politicians and another rule for the firefighters? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): It Penny Mordaunt: We will debate this issue this afternoon, would be inappropriate to talk about a particular case but I stress that we need to stick to the facts of the case. that is still live in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I will Many things about the regulations that came into law say, however, that the Secretary of State has given clear last week are an improvement on some of the schemes. guidance about pre-application consultation with We have addressed genuine concerns about people working communities. There are guidelines about protecting until they are older. I hope this afternoon will provide landscape and heritage, and the Secretary of State is us with the opportunity to get those facts on the record. able to recover applications if he believes that we need I point out to the hon. Gentleman that the previous to test those guidelines. The best thing that my hon. scheme will finish at the end of this financial year, so if Friend’s constituents can do is to ensure that they have the regulations were revoked firefighters would be without a strong local plan in place that determines renewable a pension scheme and they would lose all the protections sources of energy. they currently enjoy.

T6. [906604] Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): T7. [906605] Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) The Minister just praised firefighters from Staffordshire. (Con): This Government have introduced measures I met them again last week, and they, like me, cannot that cap the amount that councils can charge understand why the Government, at this eleventh hour leaseholders for repairs to their properties and homes. before the debate later today, will not agree a negotiated In my constituency, some residents of Merridale court settlement on the firefighters’ pension scheme regulations. are being charged up to £12,000 by Wolverhampton Why are the Government not taking account of the Homes, with bills that have come all at once rather than Williams report, why are they peddling the myth of spread over a period of time. Do Ministers think it is redeployment, and why cannot we have a fair pension fair and reasonable that those pensioners should have for those having to retire early on health grounds? to pay those fees? 1119 Oral Answers15 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1120

The Minister of State, Department for Communities hydraulic fracking applications go through, and will he and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I congratulate insist that the Government follow the precautionary my hon. Friend on taking on the case on behalf of his principle so that all environmental and health concerns residents. He is absolutely right that we should ensure will be addressed before an application is granted? that taxpayers’ money is well spent and that residents should be protected from any erroneous or over-the-top Brandon Lewis: I thank my hon. Friend for standing charges, as Florrie’s law, which was introduced in August, up to make sure that the process is followed correctly. seeks to do. I would go further and say that, if those Obviously, the planning process is quasi-judicial and Wolverhampton residents do not feel they are being planning authorities must go through the full process. I dealt with properly or appropriately, I would encourage will make sure that the chief planning officer keeps an them to go to the Leasehold Advisory Service, which eye on what is happening and ensures that the process is can consider the first-tier tribunal to review their cases. followed, and I will keep an eye on the case myself.

Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): As I Does the Secretary of State recall that I asked him understand it, we will get an announcement later this during the previous Question Time to give an early week about the local government financial settlement decision on the Coventry gateway project and that I for next year, which could involve a 10% reduction in followed that up with a letter? I have not received a local authority spending. That is as big a cut in one year reply to either request. I am sure he means no discourtesy, as central Government Departments have faced throughout but could he tell us when we might expect a response, the whole of this Parliament. Will the Secretary of because a lot of jobs, business rates and development in State, in the interests of transparency, give an assurance the south of Coventry depend on it? that he will come to this House and make an oral statement, rather than hide behind a written statement Mr Pickles: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for as he did last year? not replying earlier. He will understand that the issue is very much tied up with adjoining authorities. A number Mr Pickles: The hon. Gentleman’s recollection is of schemes are currently being negotiated under various wrong: we made a statement from this Dispatch Box. growth deals and I hope the Government will be able to We cannot anticipate what the business managers of make a decision fairly soon. this House will do. We will take the hon. Gentleman’s words into consideration. T8. [906606] Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The Secretary of State has made localism his Several hon. Members rose— thing and he has come across very strongly as the champion of the people. Will he ensure that the people’s Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but as usual demand voice is heard and listened to when the first wave of has exceeded supply. We must now press on. 1121 15 DECEMBER 2014 UK Armed Forces (Iraq) 1122

UK Armed Forces (Iraq) There has not been enough clarity about the role of the UK armed forces, the scale of their involvement and 3.34 pm the time frame for training operations. The Defence Secretary said just over a month ago that that would be Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab) (Urgent Question): very limited and at that stage only a dozen UK troops To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to make a were involved in specific training tasks. Is there a strategy statement on the role of UK armed forces in Iraq. or are the Government making it up as they go along? The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): Will the Defence Secretary explain reports that the The United Kingdom is providing substantial support National Security Council is meeting later this week to to the Government of Iraq through air strikes, surveillance, discuss and approve something he has already announced? the gifting and transporting of equipment and the Finally, does he intend to come back to the House to training of Iraqi forces in specialist skills. About 50 UK report on the deployment so that we can have a full, personnel are working with the Danes in Sulaymaniyah open and proper discussion on these hugely significant in northern Iraq, carrying out combat infantry and matters? That is what the British public would expect sharpshooter training, and we are coming to the end of and demand. the second of four three-week courses. We also have about 10 military personnel in Irbil, seeing how we can assist the Government of Iraq in training and equipping Michael Fallon: As I said, I have already announced, other Kurdish forces. The international coalition is including in this House, that we are considering what developing its plan to build the capacity of Iraqi security further contribution we can make to the training of forces and any future UK training contribution would Iraqi forces. There is nothing new about that. Yesterday, be absorbed into this coalition plan. I made it very clear that the numbers are yet to be finalised. When they are finalised, they will, of course, In early November, I announced our intention to be announced to the House. provide further training to the Iraqi military. No decisions on troop numbers, units or locations have been made, The hon. Gentleman asked a number of specific although we expect to focus on providing expertise in questions. He asked whether there will be a proper countering explosive devices. During Defence questions assessment of risk. Yes, I will take advice from my on 24 November, I also announced our intention to military advisers on the risk involved. On force protection, advise and assist the Iraqi armed forces through the we must make sure that any training that we provide is secondment of advisory personnel to command properly protected, even though it is well away from the headquarters. We are considering what contribution we front line. The RAF strikes will continue. I will keep the can make and the details of any of these decisions will House updated on the number of missions that are be announced to Parliament in the usual way. flown and the number of strikes. Vernon Coaker: I am sure that many Members will, The hon. Gentleman asked about discussions with like me, have been surprised and dismayed that the the Iraqi Government. I make it clear to the House that Defence Secretary told a Sunday newspaper about the everything that we are doing in Iraq and everything that deployment of UK armed forces to Iraq before he told we are considering doing in Iraq is at the request of the this House. Is it not true that that led to turmoil in his Iraqi Government. I clarified that in my visit to Baghdad department? Yesterday morning, he said that hundreds and Irbil last month. It is precisely because the Iraqi of troops would be deployed across four training bases, Government have asked us and our coalition partners but yesterday afternoon a Ministry of Defence spokesperson for help that we are considering this action at the said that no decisions on troop numbers, units or locations moment. had been made, so how many are there? What message I cannot comment on specific details in respect of the does he think this sends to our armed forces? Is it one of National Security Council, but I repeat that the details clarity and decisiveness or one of confusion and of our final decisions will be reported to the House. uncertainty? These are serious matters and the British public will want to know that this is not being undertaken lightly. Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): Surely the key question is whether ISIS poses a threat to us, directly or We have supported steps taken by the Government, indirectly. If it does, it needs to be dealt with by whatever regional partners and the international coalition to means necessary. Are not too many western Governments combat ISIL, including the provision by UK forces of getting close to conflict by opinion poll? Will my right training and equipment to the Iraqi army and Kurdish hon. Friend comment on the state of co-operation with forces, but we will scrutinise any developments and the Sunni tribes in Anbar province, which remains a key ensure that appropriate questions are asked. What factor in whether we can win a ground war against assessment has the Defence Secretary made of the risk ISIS? involved in expanding the training role to several locations across Iraq and the status and rules of engagement of force protection personnel? Will both training units and Michael Fallon: The advance of ISIL is a direct threat combat-ready personnel be solely under UK command to this country and other western countries, which is and comprise UK servicemen and women alone? What why some 40 countries are involved in the international role will the RAF, which is currently undertaking combat coalition and why a number of them are considering missions in Iraq, play? What discussions has he had putting personnel in to assist the training effort. On my with the Iraqi Government about this deployment? predecessor’s second question, the support and enlistment Does he agree that there must be no misunderstanding of the tribes of the Anbar is critical in pushing ISIL about British involvement in Iraq at any stage, which is back towards the western frontier of Iraq. There have why we need a clearly defined strategy? been encouraging signs, but it is up to the Iraqi Government 1123 UK Armed Forces (Iraq)15 DECEMBER 2014 UK Armed Forces (Iraq) 1124 and the reformed Iraqi army to ensure that, in all their and training and a continuation of the airstrikes. Does actions, they command the support of Sunnis, Shi’as the Secretary of State agree with the President and me and Kurds. that if UK combat troops returned, they could be regarded as occupying forces, which would create other Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): difficulties for Iraq? Some of us had the privilege to meet British and Danish troops in Iraq last week. The training includes medical Michael Fallon: I agree with both my hon. Friend and training. Given that 60% of peshmerga injuries are the President of Iraq, in no particular order. The President caused by improvised explosive devices, where loss of of Iraq himself has said that he does not want British or blood is a significant factor, why are we not training any other foreign combat troops involved, which is why them in the use of tourniquets, which was very beneficial we need to make it absolutely clear that we are not to our troops in Afghanistan? proposing to return combat troops to Iraq. The effort that we are making is relatively small-scale and should Michael Fallon: I will certainly look at that suggestion. be seen alongside the contributions being promised by We gained expertise in countering IEDs and vehicle-borne others, including the Germans, the Spanish, the Danes, explosive devices in Afghanistan and, as the hon. Lady the Italians, the Australians and the New Zealanders, says, we also accumulated considerable expertise in all of whom are considering what effort they can make dealing with the injuries that they cause. to help with training and equipment.

Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): I urge Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): Does the the Secretary of State please to ensure that, along with Secretary of State agree that if we are to defeat this the trainers, we deploy people who have expertise in ISIL criminal caliphate cult, or Daesh, it will have to be Iraq, both military and civilian, to look specifically at done not just in Iraq but in its headquarters and heartlands the role of the Shi’a militia and the Sunni tribes so that in Syria? What is the international coalition of 40 countries we can credibly sit at the table with the Iraqi Government to which he referred going to do about that? and the United States to challenge and debate the overall strategy, and drive a Sunni reconciliation. Michael Fallon: The hon. Gentleman, who has some experience of these matters through his chairmanship Michael Fallon: I absolutely endorse what my hon. of the Foreign Affairs Committee, is right that in the Friend, the Chairman of the Defence Committee, said. end ISIL can be defeated only if it is defeated in both It is vital that the new Iraqi Government not only countries, Syria and Iraq. That is why we welcome the consider themselves to be inclusive, but demonstrate strikes that other members of the international coalition, that they are inclusive. They must command the support including the United States but also our allies in the of the Sunni tribes and show that the Shi’a militia that Gulf, have undertaken against ISIL, particularly in the are associated with the effort to halt ISIL are part of an north of Syria. That helps to disrupt ISIL’s supply lines overall inclusive effort that cuts across political, religious into Iraq. Our part—it is all that the House will allow us and tribal divisions. I have emphasised that throughout. to do at the moment—is in Iraq, but we have plenty to There are encouraging signs in the Iraqi Government, do there through airstrikes, surveillance, the supply of in the reform of the Iraqi military and in Defence equipment and the consideration that we are now Minister Obeidi’s proposals for a national guard that undertaking of further training. can help to secure ground that has been won back from ISIL. However, there is a long way to go in ensuring Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): When I deployed to that that effort is genuinely inclusive. Bosnia in 1992, it was supposedly in a non-combat role, but the chiefs of staff insisted on ensuring that I had a Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): field surgical team with an operating theatre and three Given the current UK deployment in Iraq, what long-term general practitioners, for several hundred people. If we consideration is being given to the implications of training deploy several hundred people into Iraq, will my right the peshmerga on possible independence for Kurdistan hon. Friend ensure that there are adequate medical in the future and on relationships with the Iraqi army facilities to look after our soldiers if by chance they are and the Iraqi Government? wounded, even though they are not in a combat role?

Michael Fallon: I welcome the recent rapprochement Michael Fallon: The House has the benefit of my between the regional administration in the Kurdish hon. Friend’s considerable expertise in these matters, areas and Baghdad. It is essential that that is built upon and I will certainly take up his suggestion. I emphasise so that oil revenues can be properly allocated and that if we deploy further personnel, they will not be in spending, especially on the military, can be considered the combat zones or on the front line. This will be a by the Government of Iraq as a whole. The priority training effort to train Iraqi and Kurdish forces in some now is surely to halt the advance of ISIL and help the areas of expertise, in particular in encountering improvised Government of Iraq, the Iraqi army and the Kurdish explosive devices, as well as the sharpshooter tactics on forces to push it back from the territory that it has which we have already been instructing. claimed. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Last week Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Last Monday the members of the Defence Committee who went to afternoon, members of the Defence Committee were at Baghdad met Vice President Ayad Allawi. He brought the presidential palace in Baghdad, and in answer to my with him 30 tribal sheikhs who described the total questions the President said no to British troops on the destruction of Shi’a and Sunni villages, the murder of ground against insurgents but yes to more equipment men in the villages, and the abduction of women and 1125 UK Armed Forces (Iraq)15 DECEMBER 2014 UK Armed Forces (Iraq) 1126

[Mrs Madeleine Moon] week. Bearing in mind the vital part that the repression in Syria plays in giving support to ISIL throughout the children. People were left with nothing in an attempt to region, can the Secretary of State say when he intends to clear land for criminal elements within the militias. Will come back to the House to explain what more we can the Secretary of State ensure that the training we provide do to support fighters in Syria who are currently fighting is not used by militias for their criminal activities, Assad and the extremists in order to protect the Syrian because often those militias are also part of the Iraqi people? army? Michael Fallon: My right hon. Friend, who was a Michael Fallon: The hon. Lady is right and we must most distinguished Minister for the middle east, is always be careful who we are training. It is important certainly right to advise the House that Syria should not that the Iraqi Government—she will have seen this on be neglected in all this. As well as the surveillance her visit to Baghdad last week—follow through on the capabilities that the military is providing, we are in reforms they are proposing. The army must become discussions with the international coalition about making genuinely inclusive and militias must be properly under a contribution to a programme to train the Syrian control. Holding ground that can be liberated must opposition, as I told the House during Defence questions have the full-hearted support of local populations, and on 24 November. We continue to scope that mission that will be particularly important as ISIL is pushed with our international partners. That kind of training back in the tribal areas of the Anbar. would almost inevitably have to happen outside Syria itself, but it is under active consideration at the moment. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The brave peshmerga whom we visited being trained by the British Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): The urgent question Army in Sulaymaniyah last week did a fantastic job in has illustrated that we need a far broader debate than stopping the breakneck advance of ISIL in the summer, we are having at present. I visited Iraq 26 times when I and they are to be congratulated. They did so against was special envoy on human rights. Many of the things huge odds in terms of personnel, equipment and training, we put in place were not just military matters: we and to this day they are a pretty makeshift army. Does trained civil society, we retrained journalists, we insisted the Secretary of State agree that although it is vital that on the rights of women and we trained the judiciary. I this should be a Kurdish or Iraqi battle against ISIL, we have just visited both Baghdad and Kurdistan with the have a vast role to play in terms of equipment, training— Foreign Affairs Committee and we need to look again particularly IED training—and we must do our part to at what we actually achieved. My worry is that some of combat the dreadful wickedness that is ISIL? those gains are now slipping away and we need to reinforce them. Michael Fallon: Yes. ISIL is a threat to us in this country and generally to the west, as well as a threat to Michael Fallon: I think the House will endorse that. all those in Iraq—particularly those of other religions The right hon. Lady knows as much about Iraq, in or indeed their own religion—who want to live at peace. particular about the Kurdish areas, as anybody in this That is why, with the support of the House, since early House. There are lessons on the type of aid that was summer we have been considering what we can do to given and what we can do now to help the new supply the peshmerga. We have supplied heavy machine democratically elected Government in Iraq to build on guns and helped to airlift other equipment and ammunition some of the earlier support we offered. On whether that is needed, and we are considering—it is still only there should be a debate on Iraq, that is not a matter for considering—the scope of training that we are able to me. However, I look forward to my appearance before offer in some of those specialist skills. the Select Committee later this week.

Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The public are right Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): When to be concerned about mission creep in Iraq, and about insurgents such as ISIL break cover and seize and hold the lack of candour by the Ministry of Defence when it territory, they lose the advantages of secrecy and surprise. comes to boots on the ground. In September I asked the It should therefore not be too difficult in the short to Secretary of State whether forward air controllers are medium term to expel them, but then they will go back directing air strikes in Iraq. I was given a holding to guerrilla and terror tactics. Will the Government answer in October, no reply in November, and we are have in place a medium to long-term strategy for containing now getting towards the end of December. Can we have that sort of warfare? We have lacked such a strategy in some candour from the Secretary of State on the simple the past when we oscillated between nation building at question of whether forward air controllers are directing one extreme and doing little or nothing at the other. air strikes in Iraq? Michael Fallon: The tactics of ISIL vary and there is Michael Fallon: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman some evidence that it is already altering its tactics in the has not received an answer to that question and I will face of air strikes. The overall strategy has to be led and look into it. We have made it clear that we are not endorsed by the Government of Iraq. It is very important involved on the ground in combat in Iraq, as that goes that, in the end, the campaign is led by the home-grown beyond the wishes of this House. We are involved in air army of Iraqi and Kurdish forces, with the support of strikes, surveillance and intelligence gathering, and certainly the international coalition. The strategy has to be formulated in the supply of equipment and training. there rather than here, but we can offer specialist expertise.

Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): May I Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): In 2003, press my right hon. Friend a little more on Syria? I met there was massive opposition to Britain going into Iraq. representatives of the Syrian national coalition last Those concerns are still there, yet we have now heard 1127 UK Armed Forces (Iraq)15 DECEMBER 2014 UK Armed Forces (Iraq) 1128 that more British troops are going back into Iraq and Michael Fallon: No decision has been taken about that a British base is being built in Bahrain. Is the which units are likely to be involved or which locations Secretary of State not presiding over an expansion and they are likely to be sent to; this is simply something we an extension of British military activity in the whole are considering at the request of the Iraqi Government. region? Is he really sure where all this will lead, what the As my right hon. Friend says, however, this is expertise cost will be, and what the casualties will be? that we have in this country, and there are lessons learned from the Afghan campaign that we think we Michael Fallon: What I am sure of, first of all, is that could usefully contribute to assist the Iraqi military. ISIL presents a clear and present danger to us in the United Kingdom. There have been acts of violent extremism John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): on the streets of our capital and elsewhere. This is a very I want to be clear about something the Defence Secretary direct threat and there are Britons, sadly, who have gone just said. The House has only given permission for us to to fight for the jihadists. There is a direct British interest go up to the Iraqi border because it has never been in ensuring that ISIL is not allowed to capture further asked to go beyond that. If he wants to do that, the territory in Iraq and is thrown back out of it. That is Prime Minister should have the courage of his apparent why we are supporting the legitimate Government of conviction and ask the question. Will the Defence Secretary Iraq, and why we are acting at their request in considering be specific about the request from the Iraqi Government? what further training and support we are able to offer. Have they made a specific request for the kind of So far as the base in Bahrain is concerned, we have increased ground force deployment he outlined to The ships and aircraft permanently present in the Gulf. Sunday Telegraph this week? Having a permanent base there will make deployment much easier. Michael Fallon: I did not outline any ground force Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): One of the most deployment; I made it clear that we were not considering important things the Defence Committee heard last the deployment of combat forces to Iraq. I discussed week was the strong desire by Governments in the the effort we might make in support of the Iraqi military region, particularly the Government of Jordan, to “Arabise with Iraqi commanders and the new Iraqi Defence the narrative”. What more can the UK Government do Minister, Minister Obeidi, when I was last in Baghdad, to support the strong desire that this be seen as an and I discussed the same matter in Irbil. This is expertise Arab-led initiative against an evil form of extreme that the Iraqi and Kurdish forces would certainly welcome. Islam and that we in the west—countries such as Britain, the United States and France—be seen as acting in Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): The support of those efforts? Secretary of State is right to congratulate Prime Minister Abadi and Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani on coming Michael Fallon: I agree with my hon. Friend. The together to form the revenue-sharing and hydrocarbon extent to which our allies in the Gulf accept that they deal, which will allow them to pay for some of the and other regional parties have a regional responsibility equipment, training and so forth. Of course there are to help the Government of Iraq deal with this challenge challenges facing both—the unification of the Peshmerga is encouraging. The recent conference in Kuwait on and, of course, the militias that we have heard about combating the ideology of ISIL was an important today. There has also been talk of the formation of a illustration of that. In the end, this has to be dealt with Sunni national guard. Has the Secretary of State had by the legitimate Government of Iraq, with the support a chance to discuss that with both parties in Kurdistan of the region and the international community. and Baghdad?

Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Although the Michael Fallon: Like my hon. Friend, I welcome the humanitarian work is valued and appreciated, should agreement—only an interim agreement at this stage— we not avoid mission-creeping into a new war before we between the Kurdish regional authority and Baghdad have had an explanation of why 632 British soldiers about the allocation of oil revenues. I hope both sides died, having been ordered into Iraq in pursuit of non- will build on that to forge a stronger relationship. So far existent weapons of mass destruction and into Helmand as the national guard is concerned, yes, I did discuss the in the belief that not a shot would be fired? issue in Baghdad, and I view it as essential for that national guard to be truly national, so that it does not Michael Fallon: I think that everyone in the House is comprise simply Shi’as, Sunnis or Kurds but is genuinely awaiting the well overdue publication of the Chilcot national and cuts across all the political, tribal and inquiry, and anything that can be done to accelerate religious divisions. that would be welcomed on both sides of the House. Helmand is a better place than it was when our troops went in, however, and we should pay tribute to the work Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): This done there and the sacrifices made. deployment is a new worry for the families of service personnel. Can the Secretary of State provide an estimate Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): We are all proud of of how long the tour of duty will be on this particular the work done by the combined school for explosives mission? and bomb disposal now based at Bicester. Do I understand it from my right hon. Friend’s statement that either Michael Fallon: I am sorry, but I cannot make any Royal Engineer and/or Royal Logistics corps limited such estimate at the moment, simply because we have bomb disposal capacity will be deployed to help train not yet decided the numbers or which units will be Iraqi service personnel in dealing with bomb disposal involved. As soon as we have further details, they will of and improvised explosive devices? course be reported to this House. 1129 UK Armed Forces (Iraq)15 DECEMBER 2014 UK Armed Forces (Iraq) 1130

Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Will my right hon. Michael Fallon: As the hon. Lady knows, everything Friend further update us on the support for military that we are doing in Iraq is either at the request or with training and aid that our allies in the Gulf states are the permission of the Iraqi authorities. As for the providing to the Iraqi Government? location of any training effort, it has yet to be decided. The coalition is considering a number of sites divided Michael Fallon: A number of allies in the Gulf have between the Kurdish and southern areas and areas already contributed equipment and have been involved around Baghdad, but we have yet to finalise exactly in air strikes, flying in support of the coalition efforts in which country is likely to offer further training where. Syria, in particular. They are looking to see what other logistical help they can provide. A number of them Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): There have been provide bases and other support for the international reports that, in addition to those in the countries mentioned effort. by my right hon. Friend, Iranian military advisers are playing key roles in the fight against ISIL. Can my right Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Given the threat hon. Friend tell us more about how the efforts of such a presented by ISIL, I think the whole House would diverse range of international military advisers are being support any effective action. However, before we left co-ordinated on the ground? Iraq, we trained, equipped and supported the Iraqi army, yet it crumbled in the face of the threat from Michael Fallon: I can assure my hon. Friend that we ISIL. Why is the Secretary of State convinced that this are not co-ordinating efforts with Iran, but more than intervention will be effective and will not simply drag us 40 countries are now involved in the international coalition, further into front-line involvement in this war? a number of which have made significant training offers. We are considering—scoping—what training offer we might be able to make, in addition to those that have Michael Fallon: We are not going to be dragged into already been made. front-line involvement, as I have made clear. The hon. Gentleman is right to remind us that the previous Iraqi Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Government did not enjoy the full support of all parts Co-op): The Secretary of State said that there was an of Iraq, which is why the army did not command the acceptance of regional responsibility and spoke of some loyalty of all parts of Iraq and why it crumbled in the of the contributions that had been made, but does he face of the ISIL onslaught. The new Government are, I categorically believe that regional partners are providing believe, genuinely representative, comprising Sunni, Shi’a enough support on the ground in the form of kinetic and Kurdish Ministers, and the reforms we have seen so activity? If not, does he envisage any circumstances in far show, I think, that the Government understand the which the fairly hazy commitment that he has described need to be wholly inclusive of all the different elements today could increase? of Iraq. It is early days and there is a challenge, as the hon. Gentleman said, in that these divisions still remain. It is up to us to help the new Government of Iraq to Michael Fallon: We have made it clear that we want to overcome them. see this effort underpinned by support from the regional partners, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made exactly that point during his visit to Ankara last Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): Given that the week. All the regional parties must be involved. We have only strategy to beat ISIL is probably a large ground seen how ISIL has swept across the borders between offensive involving tens of thousands of troops, does Syria and Iraq, and has managed to seize a large my right hon. Friend believe that such a resolution will amount of territory.I think the regional partners understand ever by executed by the Iraqi and Kurdish forces? that the integrity and survival of Iraq are key to the region. We are continuing to encourage them, as I did Michael Fallon: Yes, I do have confidence that ISIL during the Manama conference in Bahrain two weeks can be pushed back if we are able to help re-equip and ago. We are encouraging them to continue to contribute, retrain the Iraqi and Kurdish forces. We have had some not least because we think it important for public significant offers of support in principle from other opinion in western Europe to take account of the part coalition partners: the Australians are offering up to that they are playing in the effort against ISIL. 400 personnel; the Germans about 100; the Spanish 300; the Italians 280; the Danes 120. A number of Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) countries are coming together to offer the sort of training (Con): I do not doubt that my right hon. Friend shares and support that they are each able to offer individually my admiration for the Royal Marines and for what they in overall support for those ground forces. did in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Is he considering using them to deliver the level of expertise and training Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) that they have clearly demonstrated, so that they can (Lab): When Parliament was recalled to debate ISIS in provide the top-notch advice that I think is so desperately September, many of us expressed concern about the needed? potential for mission creep, and I am afraid that the manner of the Secretary of State’s announcement has Michael Fallon: I much appreciated my visit last not reassured us. He said that these activities would be week, with my hon. Friend, to the Royal Marines in his undertaken at the invitation of the Iraqi Government. constituency, and I am well aware of the formidable Who will co-ordinate them, and is it true that, as has strengths and expertise that they bring to operations of been reported in the press, we will be based at either of this kind. I should emphasise, however, that we have not the training centres in which the United States currently yet made any decisions about the number of personnel, reside? or about the units from which they might be drawn. 1131 UK Armed Forces (Iraq) 15 DECEMBER 2014 1132

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Are there any Northern Ireland (All-party Talks) differences between the Secretary of State’s assessment of the training requirements of the Iraqi armed forces and the Iraqi Government’s own assessment of its training 4.15 pm needs? Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if Michael Fallon: Broadly, no. All this is being done in she will make a statement on the talks process in Northern close co-operation and discussion with the Iraqi Ireland following the Prime Minister’s visit. Government. I had discussions with the new Iraqi Defence Minister and his officials in Baghdad, who were fairly The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa open about gaps in their military, their capabilities and Villiers): I am grateful for the opportunity to update the their equipment, and about the areas in which they look House on the cross-party talks which have been taking to the rest of the international community for assistance. place in Stormont over the past nine weeks. In September the Government concluded that the time was right for a fresh round of political discussions to be convened with the parties in the Northern Ireland Executive. The Irish Government reached the same conclusion and co-ordinated statements were issued. The aim was to address some key issues which are hindering the effectiveness and credibility of devolution and the Stormont Executive. These included: welfare reform and the Executive’s budget; the so-called legacy issues of flags, parading and the past; and reform of the political institutions. The talks began at Stormont house on 16 October. As a signatory to the Belfast agreement, the Irish Government have been fully involved in all those matters where they too have responsibilities, consistent with the three-stranded approach, which means that the internal arrangements for Northern Ireland are a matter for the UK Government and the parties. I would like to take this opportunity to put on record my thanks for the positive and constructive role played throughout by the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Charlie Flanagan TD, and his team of officials. In addition, I am very grateful for the support and wise counsel of the Under- Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). The US Government have also been supportive and closely engaged with this process, in particular through Secretary of State Kerry’s representative, Senator Gary Hart. So far, around 90 hours of the formal talks have taken place. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and An Taoiseach, Enda Kenny TD, have been closely following the whole nine-week process and on Thursday they joined the discussions directly. They conducted an intensive round of talks with the Executive parties and I would like to thank both of them for their support, perseverance and ongoing commitment to this process. Despite their efforts, by early Friday morning they made a realistic assessment that there was still insufficient consensus across the parties for a broadly based agreement to be reached. Shortly afterwards, all five Executive parties declared their firm intention to continue to strive for a deal. They asked me and Minister Flanagan to take part in a resumption of discussions on Friday afternoon, which we duly did. Let me briefly set out to the House the outline of the deal put on the table on Thursday. A draft heads of agreement was tabled including, first, a fresh approach to the past which puts the needs of victims and survivors at its heart; secondly, devolved arrangements for adjudicating on parades that would see the Parades Commission replaced by a new authority; and thirdly, reforms to the institutions such as support for those 1133 Northern Ireland (All-party Talks)15 DECEMBER 2014 Northern Ireland (All-party Talks) 1134

[Mrs Theresa Villiers] from tough choices. Northern Ireland has the right not to implement aspects of Tory-Lib Dem welfare cuts, parties that might want to form a formal Opposition but a refusal to implement any welfare reform is neither within the Assembly. The draft also sought a commitment affordable nor credible. from the Executive to press ahead with welfare reform, although with a number of flexibilities to reflect Northern I have some questions for the Secretary of State. Will Ireland’s circumstances, and to implement a serious she spell out how the £1 billion of extra spending power efficiency programme to make long-term savings in the offered by the Prime Minister is broken down? Where is cost of government. This draft heads of agreement was the money going to come from? How quickly will the the result of the work of both the UK and Irish loan element have to be repaid, and at what rate of Governments, again respecting the three-stranded approach, interest? What is the Government’s estimate of the and we believe it represents a balanced package and a overall annual cost to Northern Ireland’s budget of the sound basis for cross-party agreement. current instruments to deal with the past and of those envisaged under new arrangements? Finally, Prime Ministers During the evening, the Prime Minister also set out usually attend political negotiations either to announce proposals to provide further financial assistance from an agreement or to roll their sleeves up and stick around the UK Government. This included flexibilities which to make an agreement possible. As the Prime Minister would have given the Executive nearly £1 billion of did neither, can the Secretary of State explain the extra spending power to help them through their current strategy underpinning his flying visit to Belfast last difficulties and support their most important priorities. week? Does she expect him to engage further in the It would also allow the devolution of corporation tax to talks before Christmas? go ahead. A change which just a few years ago seemed inconceivable and undeliverable is now within the grasp of Northern Ireland’s leaders, if they choose to take it. Mrs Villiers: I thank the shadow Secretary of State The talks resume this week and the stakes are high. for his questions. I agree that people in Northern Ireland All parties agree that if there is no agreement before want to see progress and confirmation that their leaders Christmas, we will not get this close again for months or are striving towards building a genuinely shared future, even years. In particular, failure to agree a balanced and that they are prepared to see their political leaders budget would leave the Executive increasingly unable to accept compromise and make difficult decisions. conduct even ordinary day-to-day business effectively. It is most emphatically not true that the UK Government So this week is crucial. We all have a responsibility to do have been disengaged over recent years. We have followed whatever we can in the few days left to us. all these matters closely and we pressed for the establishment The UK Government have shown that they can of the Haass talks in the first place. Also, the economic compromise, even over hugely sensitive and difficult pact has seen our two Administrations in Belfast and issues regarding Northern Ireland’s past and even when London working more closely than ever before. The resources are constrained by the pressing need to deal devolution of air passenger duty took place in double-quick with the deficit. We will continue to do all we can to time to save Northern Ireland’s transatlantic flights, for deliver agreement within the financial constraints in example, and the G8—a huge opportunity for Northern which we are operating, but the UK and Irish Governments Ireland—was brought to Northern Ireland personally can do only so much. Ultimately, whether an overall by the Prime Minister. I agree that, in this situation, agreement is reached will be down to Northern Ireland’s there can be no blank cheques for the Executive. We all political leaders. They have the chance to show that, have to live within the constraints of the need to deal once again, they can move Northern Ireland forward with the deficit. towards a better future in which politics works, the economy grows and society is stronger and more united. On the financial package, the Prime Minister outlined That is the prize on offer, and I know that all the a contribution of £10 million a year towards the running participants in the talks will have the support and good of the Historical Enquiries Unit, which is proposed in will of this House in our attempts to seize it. the draft heads of agreement. The Government would also approve the use of Northern Ireland’s existing allocation of £200 million of the re-investment and Mr Lewis: I thank the Secretary of State for her reform initiative borrowing for 2015-16 to implement answer. Christmas is meant to be the season of good an exit scheme for the Northern Ireland public sector, will, but for a second consecutive year in Northern to be used in that financial year. That includes the Ireland there is a real risk that it will be a season of £100 million already sought by the Executive as part of entrenched mistrust and political failure. The people of their draft 2015-16 Budget. The Government would Northern Ireland want progress. They yearn for politicians also agree that the Executive may use a further £100 million who offer hope that the journey to a shared future, of their RRI borrowing power in each of the five while not easy, is irreversible and who accept that a subsequent years, beginning in 2016-17, for the same shared obligation and a shared commitment to a better purpose. The Prime Minister also set out plans to future require compromise and mutual respect. support the establishment of the peace and investment Of course, the UK and Irish Governments have fund proposed by Northern Ireland’s leaders, including responsibilities too. Three years of relative disengagement allowing the Northern Ireland Executive to keep additional by the UK Government have damaged trust and weakened funds generated from asset sales in the financial year mutual understanding. It also has to be recognised that 2015-16, after the achievement of a balanced budget. I Northern Ireland faces unique challenges related to the assure the shadow Secretary of State that the Prime past. A properly resourced, comprehensive framework Minister did indeed roll up his sleeves and engage in should be part of any agreement, but fairness also intensive negotiations, because he, like all of us here, is means that there can be no blank cheques or exemption determined to reach a successful outcome. 1135 Northern Ireland (All-party Talks)15 DECEMBER 2014 Northern Ireland (All-party Talks) 1136

Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): I difficult to take difficult decisions, but they are capable congratulate the Secretary of State on her perseverance, of it; adaptations can be made. However, improving the working with the local parties on matters that we know way the institutions work will be an important part of are of intense interest and concern to them. Does she an overall agreement. think they have really got the message that the devolution of corporation tax, bringing economic benefits which Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): Of have so dramatically helped the Republic of Ireland, course these matters do not just affect the Northern would be of enormous significance and would in many Ireland parties; national issues and national security ways measure up to the level of the agreement years issues are at stake in the discussions on the past. On ago, and that we really are in the final hours? As I parades, we are still awaiting the Secretary of State’s understand it, a Bill is ready to be laid, but it has to be announcement about what she is going to do on north laid this week. If the local parties blow this opportunity, Belfast and the Ligoniel parade. That could unlock the they deserve to have the obloquy of future generations way for progress being made, so it is important that the descend upon them—they must not fluff this opportunity. UK Government—our Government—play their part in moving things forward as well. Although I welcome Mrs Villiers: I agree that one of the most urgent what the Opposition spokesman has said, I remind him matters at stake is the devolution of corporation tax, that part of the reason for the mistrust at the moment is and the clock really is ticking on that. If we are to pass the previous Government’s actions in relation to on-the-runs. legislation within this Parliament, we need to introduce it as soon as possible, not least because the Opposition Mrs Villiers: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman Front-Bench team has not yet been prepared to give its that the north Belfast panel will be constituted shortly. I support to the potential devolution of corporation tax. agree that national security matters are at stake, not least because the current dispute over welfare reform Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): May I offer a critical and budgets means that the Police Service of Northern observation, not for some partisan motive, but out of Ireland is facing significant funding cuts. Those cuts experience of negotiating at such summits alongside could impact on its ability to deliver community policing, Tony Blair, when he was Prime Minister? I was both which is an important part of our counter-terrorism troubled and astonished that the current Prime Minister strategy as a means of building support for policing left the summit prematurely in the way that he did. My within the community. experience is that any Prime Minister has to coax and progress the discussions and negotiations, and there is a chemistry about those and a momentum that it is possible Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): to develop. Walking away as he did leaves a kind of Will the Secretary of State be slightly more specific political paralysis which I suspect and fear may continue. about what is holding up the talks? In particular, she That is extremely damaging and I am extremely worried mentioned Sinn Fein’s opposition to reform of welfare. about the situation. She will know that Sinn Fein wishes to see the destruction of the Northern Ireland entity, which is not exactly the position that most other people take. Is it a fact that we Mrs Villiers: I can provide the right hon. Gentleman may have to impose a solution—I am not entirely clear with reassurance that the Prime Minister has not walked about how that can be done—to ensure that things away; he continues to follow these matters with the move forward? greatest of attention, because he cares about Northern Ireland and wishes to see a successful conclusion to this process. The reality is that both he and the Taoiseach Mrs Villiers: I shall be as brief as possible. There made a realistic assessment on Friday morning that the remain significant differences of view on a number of parties were still far apart on a number of issues, and matters. There is no sign as yet that Sinn Fein will move there was an indication that on some key issues some its position on welfare reform. Further progress is needed parties were simply not prepared to move. In particular, on a specific plan for efficiencies within the Northern it was very difficult to see that Sinn Fein was prepared Ireland Executive. On the past, issues around thematic to move on matters relating to welfare reform. work and inquests will be quite difficult to resolve. On parading, the discussions that took place in the summer Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): Is not under the party leaders’ talks indicate that the criteria one of the deeper and wider problems in Northern for adjudicating parades and the sanctions to be attached Ireland that fact that the Assembly and the Executive to a code of conduct remain the main sticking points. were set up in the way they were, although for the very laudable reason of bringing about peace and bringing Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): How on earth can the people together? Does the Secretary of State agree that Prime Minister come to the conclusion, after 24 hours, that model is not a good one for effective and efficient that there is no realistic way of reaching a consensus? decision making? Is she discussing with the parties of Over the years, both with the Good Friday agreement Northern Ireland ways in which changes might be proposed and the St Andrew’s agreement, the Prime Minister by them that might move us towards a more efficient actively tries to ensure that there is a consensus. The system? Secretary of State should go to Downing street and persuade the Prime Minister to do that again—and Mrs Villiers: I have had those discussions at great quickly. length, including discussions about how to amend the petition of concern process. The Chairman of the Select Mrs Villiers: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman Committee is right to acknowledge that the institutions that the UK Government will continue to work as hard set up to secure a peace settlement can often find it as possible to secure an agreement out of this process. 1137 Northern Ireland (All-party Talks)15 DECEMBER 2014 Northern Ireland (All-party Talks) 1138

Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): May I agree with example on how we set up new structures to help deal the Secretary of State’s earlier sentiment that the solution with the past in a way that better meets the needs of to every problem in Northern Ireland cannot be more victims and survivors. money from the English taxpayer? Will she now confirm that there will be no bigger offer than the £1 billion that Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): The Secretary of State was talked about last week to get this deal over the line? has said that she wants to see a fresh approach to the past. Does she realise that that will be very difficult Mrs Villiers: As I have said many times, the solution while there is still so much secrecy about the on-the-runs? to these problems cannot be a big cheque from the UK The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee is facing increasing Government. That is partly because it would not solve difficulty in getting the ex-Prime Minister Tony Blair to the problems, and partly because there is no more give evidence for its inquiry—we have had to summons money. We have made it clear that we are not prepared him and he has not come yet. There are people from the to subsidise a more expansive welfare system for Northern Northern Ireland Office whom the Secretary of State Ireland. We are certainly prepared to continue to discuss seems to want to prevent coming to speak to us. We the funding of matters such as new institutions on the have to get the inquiry finished and we have to get the past. past looked at very differently, but we need some openness and transparency from the ex-Prime Minister. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does the Secretary of State recognise that £700 million of an existing borrowing Mrs Villiers: One of the advantages of setting up new power that we originally negotiated for strategic capital structures on the past is that it allows us to reflect upon investment to be used for voluntary exit schemes does and respond to mistakes made in the past so that not seem to people to be new money or a big attractive whatever we set up is transparent, balanced, fair and offer? Is she not concerned that she has informed the properly accountable. I very much welcome the work House that the issue of inquests will be difficult? The that the Select Committee has done on the matter. It is two Governments propose that the families who have for the Committee to negotiate with former Prime fought for inquests and had new inquests opened will Minister Blair. I certainly hope he will accept the invitation now be told that, no, they will not now have an inquest. to give evidence. In relation to junior civil servants, the There is to be a new arrangement as part of the historical Government’s approach is consistent with that taken by investigations unit that may not work in respect of the previous Governments: we do not generally put forward inquest and also damage the working prospects for junior civil servants to answer in Select Committees. other key aspects of the HIU’s work. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Is it not Mrs Villiers: I assure the hon. Gentleman that the entirely predictable that many people in Northern Ireland, flexibilities offered in relation to borrowing powers having observed the operation of the welfare cap in would be of significant assistance to the Northern England and Wales, look with great trepidation at deepening Ireland Executive in delivering the voluntary exit scheme poverty, increasing homelessness and all the problems for which they are calling. It was a significant and that have been associated with that policy here? serious offer, but one that accepts the realities of the financial constraints we are under. I fully appreciate the Mrs Villiers: I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman difficulties concerning inquests. The Government are in on the benefit cap—I think that is what he means, listening mode, and we will continue to discuss the rather than a welfare cap. The reality is that setting a matter with the parties over the next couple of days. cap on out-of-work benefits at £26,000 a year puts it Whatever the outcome, it is vital that the cases be dealt somewhere in excess of average earnings in Northern with within a framework that is fully compliant with Ireland. I think that most people would agree that it is our obligations under article 2 of the European convention entirely fair to restrict the benefits that an out-of-work on human rights. family can receive to levels that are equivalent to or below the average that a working family can bring home Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): The Prime Minister’s by going out to work. failure to broker a deal last week caused considerable disappointment in Northern Ireland, although I have to John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I say that I do not think it caused much surprise, since he would like the Secretary of State to clarify the maths on did not stay there very long trying to bring about this. Some £1.5 billion has been cut from the Northern success. However, it is the season of good will, so could Ireland budget since 2011 to assist the UK Government the Secretary of State provide us with some reasons to in reducing borrowing and tackling the deficit, yet the be cheerful about the likelihood of success in the near solution now being put forward is to ask Northern future in these talks? That would be very welcome. Ireland to increase its borrowing by £500 million. Is that not simply inflicting a high burden of cost on the Mrs Villiers: I think that the reasons to be cheerful residents of Northern Ireland? are that all the Northern Ireland parties accept that we need to find a deal and that everyone accepts that going Mrs Villiers: I am afraid that I do not agree with the into the next financial year with an unresolved budget hon. Gentleman’s figures on the Northern Ireland block would lead to increasing chaos and make it increasingly grant, which has actually gone up in cash terms. In real difficult for the Executive to perform even their ordinary, terms there has been a reduction, but it has been around day-to-day functions. No one wants that. I think everyone only 1% for every year of the spending review. The reality accepts that that would be bad for every party that is a is that the Northern Ireland Executive have a larger member of the Executive. I think there is that willingness budget now than they did when they set their programme to make progress. We are relatively close on matters, for for government, because of Barnett consequentials. Those 1139 Northern Ireland (All-party Talks)15 DECEMBER 2014 Northern Ireland (All-party Talks) 1140 figures compare favourably with policing and the Home which is available in the rest of the United Kingdom, Office, for example, which have had to take a significant that money must be found from the Northern Ireland cut in England, and English local government, where block grant and there is no additional money available? the reductions have also been very significant. Mrs Villiers: Yes, I can certainly do that. There will Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I pay tribute to be no new money for welfare reform. the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach for the work they did, and not just over Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): The leader of recent weeks but in the run-up and on Thursday and the Minister’s sister party in Northern Ireland said last Friday. Does she agree that there is a distinct difference week that the Government were trying to bribe the between all parties recognising that an agreement is people with their own money. The truth is that they are necessary and all parties having the will to deliver it? trying to bribe the people to accept an agenda that the Does she agree that all parties recognised the need for people there do not want. It is disgraceful that this an agreement even before Richard Haass and his team involves things as important as identity and the past arrived 18 months ago, yet we are in practice no closer and the future of the place. Does this not show that to such an agreement? Far from further devolution of because we have a Prime Minister with the attention corporation tax and other matters being at stake, what span of a gnat, exactly as my right hon. Friend the is actually at stake if there is no serious agreement in the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) said, he has left a vacuum— next few days is the existing devolution that we have in the worst thing one can do in Northern Ireland—which Northern Ireland, because without a budget the Assembly proves that he is not up to the job? simply cannot function. Mrs Villiers: That is nonsense. The Prime Minister made a realistic offer. Remember, what the Prime Minister Mrs Villiers: I agree that the credibility of the institutions can put on the table by way of financial assistance is is on the line. If the Assembly cannot get its budget severely constrained by the huge mess that Labour right, it is very difficult for it to perform its basic made of the economy in the years when it was in functions, and it would be in for significant criticism if government. it cannot resolve these matters. As to the hon. Lady’s comment that the parties recognise the importance of Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): We all appreciate delivery, and her question about whether they have the the gravity of the situation, but will the Secretary of will to do it, I hope they do and I believe they do. Time State tell us what the Prime Minister intends to do is running out. It is crucial that we seize this opportunity during the next few days to break the logjam? because we will not get another one for months, if not years, to come. Mrs Villiers: We will be doing everything we can to break the logjam over the coming days. We have thrown Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): The main reason everything we can at the process, including stretching that the talks failed this week was Sinn Fein’s deluded ourselves on the past, and taking forward proposals for belief that Northern Ireland should be totally exempt corporation tax devolution, despite a degree of lack of from the implications of UK budgetary policy and enthusiasm from our coalition partners. We are doing welfare reform. Will the Secretary of State confirm everything we can to do the right thing for Northern and put it on the record for those head-in-the-sand Ireland, but ultimately this process will not succeed ostrich economists who advise Sinn Fein that if Northern unless Northern Ireland’s political leaders are prepared Ireland wishes to deviate from the welfare reform package to make the compromises necessary for an agreement. 1141 15 DECEMBER 2014 1142

Point of Order Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (England)

4.42 pm 4.43 pm Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. During the urgent question Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): I beg to move, on Iraq, I asked a question of the Secretary of State That the Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (England) Regulations 2014 but I did not declare my pecuniary and non-pecuniary (S.I., 2014, No. 2848), dated 23 October 2014, a copy of which interests, which I now put on record. was laid before this House on 28 October, be revoked. This is an extremely important debate—I thank the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, Government for providing time for it—about an issue who approached me about this matter. The House that firefighters feel very strongly about and which has appreciates what he has just said. been the cause of industrial action. Ministers ought to ask themselves why that is. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (TODAY) Let me begin by saying to the Minister that it was not Ordered, acceptable to table a written statement this afternoon That at today’s sitting the motion in the name of Edward suggesting that all the concerns have been dealt when, Miliband relating to the Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (England) on reading it, we discover that that is clearly not the Regulations 2014 shall be proceeded with as if Standing Order case. Nor is it acceptable to claim, as she did in Communities No. 16 (Proceedings under an Act or on European Union documents) and Local Government questions earlier, that she will applied to it; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) guarantee an unreduced pension to firefighters who shall not apply to the motion.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) cannot maintain their fitness and cannot be redeployed, when in fact her own letter to me, also of today’s date, confirms that that is not the case. She should not try to pull the wool over firefighters’ eyes. I will return to that point later on. This dispute is not about the need for change in this or other public sector pension schemes. We know that we are living longer and will therefore draw a pension for longer, and that means higher contribution rates and later retirement ages. Any Government have to ensure that public sector pensions are financially sustainable. Nor is this debate about challenging the cost ceiling for the regulations, because we accept that. This debate is about producing a pension scheme that is fair to firefighters and workable—something that, to date, DCLG Ministers have failed to do. Unlike the Governments in Scotland and Wales, Ministers have laid before the House regulations that are unfair to firefighters who, through no fault of their own, may have to retire between the ages of 55 and 60, and that are not based on what we would regard as a common understanding of fitness levels. I want to deal with each of those points in turn. The Minister knows that the scheme is not the only one possible within the cost limit. The Government Actuary has told them that, and firefighters know it too. That is why the devolved Governments have proposed lower actuarial reductions. Firefighters in England, a very large number of whom have been lobbying their Members of Parliament in recent weeks, are therefore asking this question: if a different scheme can be offered to firefighters in Scotland and in Wales, then why not in England? Regulation 61 of the statutory instrument deals with the penalties firefighters will face should they need to retire between the ages of 55 and 60. Under the Government’s proposals, firefighters will lose 21.8% of their pension at the age of 55, yet the Government Actuary has shown that there are two different ways of calculating that reduction: one that seems fair to firefighters, and another that is not, which is the one that the Government have chosen. This issue of the reduction is where negotiations in Scotland and Wales have made most progress. Scotland is not proposing a 21.8% reduction, as in England, but a 9% reduction, and in past weeks, Wales has also moved to consult on 9%. 1143 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1144 (England) (England) Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I am so grateful to John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I applaud the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I just want to the way in which my right hon. Friend is contesting the put on the record that we have a very amicable settlement regulations, because Labour Members simply cannot with firefighters in Northern Ireland. Every time he accept them when they fail to protect the public and referred to Scotland and Wales, my colleagues and I needlessly put firefighters at risk. The Minister told the were saying that we have a very good settlement in House earlier today that she will guarantee an unreduced Northern Ireland, which is why we do not have industrial pension to those firefighters who, through no fault of action. The Government need to learn lessons from a their own, face dismissal because they cannot meet the very successful process in Northern Ireland. fitness standards, but the regulations do not provide that guarantee. Does my right hon. Friend also recognise Hilary Benn: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. Indeed, that the firefighters themselves were told by the Minister there has been no industrial action in Northern Ireland, during the negotiations that that would be the case, so and that is why I did not refer to the agreement that is in they have been let down directly by the regulations? place. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. There is a limited time for this debate and a lot of Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): people wish to speak. We must have very brief interventions. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is rather difficult for people like him, me and the Secretary of State, who Hilary Benn: I agree with my right hon. Friend and I do not need to maintain a level of fitness in order to shall come back to that point later. earn our income, to understand the very real fear among firefighters? This issue has not been put up by the Fire On the offers made in Scotland and Wales, those Brigades Union; firefighters really do fear that they are devolved Governments are subject to exactly the same not going to be able to cope with the inevitable deterioration cost ceiling, so they have adjusted their accrual rates to that age brings to strength. come up with a fairer scheme. Why does that matter? It matters because firefighting demands certain standards of physical fitness, yet some firefighters reaching the Hilary Benn: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right age of 55 will, after decades of service and through no about the concerns that very many firefighters have fault of their own, find they are unable to continue talked to many Members of the House about. That is, because they cannot meet the fitness requirements. in part, the nub of this issue. Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Will Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): my right hon. Friend give way? Although the Scottish Government have sought to find the best solution possible for firefighters in Scotland Hilary Benn: May I make some more progress, if my within the envelope available, does the right hon. Gentleman hon. Friend will bear with me? share my concern that 60 is not an appropriate age for The FBU has proposed a fairer scheme, accepting firefighters to retire and agree that we need to revisit the that the accrual rate will need to be adjusted. In other question of whether that is an appropriate healthy words, firefighters will accept less pension if the Government working life expectancy? will accept a smaller actuarial reduction for those forced to retire early. Indeed, an e-mail to the Department in Hilary Benn: I do not agree with the hon. Lady, because January from the Government’s own deputy chief actuary when the 2006 regulations were introduced they made reported back on the calculation of active early retirement provision for that retirement age. The difference and the factors from age 55. It confirmed that Ministers could reason that there was no industrial action in 2006 was indeed propose a scheme with a 12.8% reduction at that firefighters felt that other jobs were available for age 55—rather than the proposed 21.8%—and calculated those who could not maintain operational fitness. As I the exact accrual rate to ensure that the Treasury bears shall say in a moment, those jobs do not exist anymore. no extra cost. In other words, Ministers could reduce the actuarial reduction if they wanted to. Instead, they Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Does have laid regulations before the House that will leave my right hon. Friend agree that one of the reasons this those retiring at 55 facing the loss of more than a fifth Government cannot reach agreement on local government of their pension. How is that fair? pension schemes in particular is that they are vindictive That is the first problem with the regulations, and I towards public services in general? We should also bear now wish to turn to the second problem. The concern that in mind that this country’s fire service in general has many firefighters have expressed about having to take suffered massive cuts under this Government. early retirement with a reduced pension would not be so great if there were other, non-front-line jobs in the fire Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend’s latter point is absolutely service that firefighters over the age of 55 could be correct. It is very clear from this debate and the campaign redeployed to for the rest of their career. The Minister that is being waged that Ministers have completely talked about such jobs earlier. That used to be the case, failed to win the confidence of firefighters. but, as has been pointed out, reductions in funding for the fire service mean that there are far fewer of those jobs. The Government commissioned Dr Tony Williams to Several hon. Members rose— conduct a review of the normal pension age for firefighters and to consider the associated fitness issues. This is the Hilary Benn: I will give way one more time at this second relevant matter to this debate. Dr Williams stage and then make some progress. published his report in January 2013, but I do not think 1145 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1146 (England) (England) [Hilary Benn] trying to get more women firefighters and on the other they are terrified of being driven out by these fitness that Ministers have taken proper account of what he had standards. to say. There is not currently a nationally agreed fitness standard across the 46 fire and rescue authorities in Hilary Benn: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and England. Dr Williams says there should be one, and so if she bears with me for just a moment I shall come do the chief fire officers. There is a very strong case for directly to her point. it, but the Government’s position has been that individual This is the central problem with the regulations: fire and rescue authorities should determine their own Ministers appear to have based all their assumptions for appropriate standard. In England, many use an aerobic the pension scheme on the 35 VO2 max measure. They fitness test, among others, that measures a firefighter’s assume that all firefighters will be able to maintain maximum oxygen intake with each breath, the so-called operational fitness when they cannot even tell us what VO2 max measurement. The Williams review stated: the fitness standard will be and when their own assumption “The general standard used by many FRSs is a minimum of a fitness standard would put the safety of firefighters fitness level of 42…while some have an ‘at risk’ standard of 35…where and the public at risk, which is what the Williams report firefighters are allowed to continue on operational duties for a and the report from the university of Bath say. limited period while they undergo remedial fitness training.” Dr Williams also states that many of the fire and The Government, however, claim that firefighters will be rescue authorities, understanding the importance of the able to maintain operational fitness until the age of 60 VO2 max standard, insist on a standard of 42 for based on the following line in the report: operational fitness. Furthermore, Dr Williams found

“a 35…VO2 max would ensure that 100% of firefighters who that in the best case assumption, if the 42 standard were remain physically active will still be operational at age 60 assuming used, as opposed to the 35 standard, they remain free from injury and disease.” “the age related decline in VO2 max”— due to the natural ageing process— Mr Donohoe: One of the most important aspects is “would indicate that 15% of firefighters would be unfit for duty at the safety of the public. If a 60-year-old comes to my 55 years, increasing to 23% at 60 years of age”. house and he is unfit, I am not sure that I want him to As for women firefighters, Dr Williams said this: deal with a fire. “more women are likely to drop below the required aerobic fitness standard as they age.” Hilary Benn: That is the concern of everyone in the Those figures amount to a lot of firefighters, yet the House. The most important thing is that firefighters Government have failed to respond properly to the should be fit to do the task they are asked to undertake Williams review. In fairness to the Minister, she has set and that they volunteer to do on behalf of society, and I up a working party to consider fitness standards, but we am coming to that point. do not know what that working party will recommend. We have two different potential measures of fitness, Given that many fire and rescue authorities have a one of 42 and another of 35. Why does that matter? Dr fitness standard of 42, is she going to tell the House that Williams adopted a VO2 max of 42 as the benchmark she thinks it will recommend a lower fitness standard for his recommendations because fitness levels are not than that which is currently applied by many fire and academic. It is a question of safety. He said: rescue authorities? “Studies show that below an aerobic fitness standard of 42…the risk of sudden catastrophic cardiac events increases, and below Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): Will my right the level of 35…the increase is significant”. hon. Friend give way? More recently, an interim report, produced by the university Hilary Benn: Since it is my hon. Friend, I will go of Bath in March and entitled “Enhancing the Health, against what I just said and give way. Fitness and Performance of UK Firefighters”, identified that Chris Williamson: I am interested in the point that my “firefighters with an aerobic capacity below an occupational right hon. Friend is making about the lower fitness fitness standard of 42.3…would not be guaranteed to be safe and standard. Is he as incredulous as I am at the Minister effective in their ability to complete necessary roles within their saying that the Government are implementing the Williams occupation…the lower VO2 max standard of 35…for continuation of work with remedial training amongst operational firefighters review, when that review said that the lower aerobic is potentially unsafe for the majority of firefighters.” fitness standard ran the risk of The House is owed an explanation from Ministers. “sudden death particularly while undergoing high levels of physical exertion”? What do they have to say about that? I hope that the House will now understand why concern has been expressed Is it not a disgrace and a stain on Government Members about the question of fitness standards. that they are prepared to put firefighters at risk of being killed while on active service?

Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): Hilary Benn: The advice that has been given to Ministers Will my right hon. Friend give way? by Dr Williams should be taken seriously, including that on the safety of firefighters, because the safety of Hilary Benn: I will give way, but then I am going to firefighters impacts on the safety of the work that they make progress. do on behalf of members of the public in fighting fires. If a lower figure is recommended by the working party, Barbara Keeley: Will my right hon. Friend come on the Minister will have a big problem, because Dr Williams to the issue of women firefighters, many of whom are has told her clearly that a number of firefighters will fearful of being driven out? On the one hand, we are not be able to maintain their fitness up to the age of 60. 1147 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1148 (England) (England) There is another problem. If we follow the Government’s logic, either the regulations are based on a flawed assumption about VO2 max levels Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Will the or an additional burden will be placed on fire and rescue right hon. Gentleman give way? authorities at a difficult time. The truth is that the Government have put the pension regulations cart ahead Hilary Benn: Time is very short and I want to bring of the fitness horse. my remarks to a close. To conclude, the regulations are unfit because Ministers While claiming that firefighters will be able to maintain have drawn them up based on the flawed claim that all their fitness, the Minister has simultaneously reassured firefighters can maintain their fitness—it is flawed because the House that there will be redeployment opportunities. Ministers cannot tell us what the fitness standard is and However, she has provided no evidence of that being because their assumption on fitness is not safe. The the case. At oral questions on 10 November, the hon. Government claim that they will be able to maintain Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) asked: operational fitness standards for firefighters, and they “Given that the Minister has recognised that there remain try to offer reassurances that anyone who falls below severe reservations about the fitness test for firefighters, is she those standards will be redeployed, even though by her saying that she will pass regulations that will ensure that firefighters own admission the Minister cannot say how many who fail the fitness test will not lose their jobs, because there are redeployment opportunities there are. They have failed insufficient numbers of back-office jobs in the fire service to to come forward with fairer early retirement actuarial accommodate them?”—[Official Report, 10 November 2014; Vol. 587, reductions, despite the Government Actuary costing c. 1165.] the alternative within the same financial constraints. The answer from the Minister was, “Yes.” If firefighters Ministers have claimed that there is a guarantee that believed that answer, there would not be a problem, but firefighters who cannot be redeployed and cannot maintain they do not. The reason is that the Minister has been their fitness will get an unreduced pension, but the completely unable to explain to the House how she documents before the House today show that there is intends to ensure—that is an important word—that no such guarantee. firefighters who find themselves in that position will not For all those reasons, we cannot support the regulations. be dismissed. Indeed, when I asked the Minister last Members on both sides of the House, many of whom week in a written parliamentary question have signed the early-day motion, know that the regulations “how many redeployment opportunities there are within the Fire are not fit for purpose, and I urge the House to revoke and Rescue Service to accommodate firefighters who are unable to maintain an operational fitness standard”, them so that Ministers can come back with something that will actually work and is fair to England’s firefighters. she replied: “We do not keep data on redeployment opportunities for Several hon. Members rose— firefighters.” If the Department has no data, the Minister does not Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. know, so how exactly can she make the promise that she It will be obvious to the House that a great many has made? Where will the jobs suddenly come from? Members wish to speak, and limited time is available. I The Minister then tries to rely on the Government’s will not put a formal time limit on speeches as yet, but promise to put fitness principles on a statutory footing, let us see whether Members will keep their remarks to but there is a problem with that, too. The national less than five minutes out of courtesy to colleagues. framework is only guidance and cannot be binding That does not apply, of course, to the Minister. because section 21 of the Fire and Rescue Act 2004 requires only that fire and rescue services “have regard” 5.6 pm to the advice. In case there is any doubt, the Local The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Government Association employers said in response to Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): the consultation: I can see that it will be up to me to recalibrate the debate “Whilst an FRA would of course have to be mindful of the —both the issues, as the right hon. Member for Leeds content of the Framework it would not be compelled to comply Central (Hilary Benn) has been telling only half the with it”. story, and the tone. The Opposition have come to the If fire and rescue authorities cannot be compelled to do House in anger to ask for the revocation of a pension so, where is the guarantee? scheme that improves considerably on their 2006 scheme, The alternative would be to pay an unreduced pension. through a debate that they nearly did not call for—they My final question is where the Government’s guarantee did so only when there was no possibility of its being is on that. I have here today’s written ministerial statement, held before the regulations became law. Hon. Members which I have read carefully. Where is the guarantee? and firefighters will draw their own conclusions about There is not one. I also have here the letter that the why that was the case. Minister wrote to me today, in which she says: The Opposition have proposed no alternative, let “The Framework also reminds fire and rescue authorities of alone said how they would pay for it. They have not the fact that they have the opportunity to retire firefighters over responded to the consultations, including the latest one 55 on an unreduced pension if they so wish.” on fitness. Protections will be introduced for firefighters, That is not a guarantee. There is no guarantee. including those in the 2006 scheme who already work until 60. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): The hon. Lady says that the Opposition have not provided Hilary Benn: I am going to finish my remarks. an alternative, but my right hon. Friend the Member for 1149 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1150 (England) (England) [Jim Fitzpatrick] Penny Mordaunt: I will. The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) is not correct in what Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) has pointed out that she says, and the other nations have not settled. I will alternatives have been found in Cardiff, Belfast and cover the points raised by my hon. Friend in my speech. Edinburgh, so alternatives do exist. Several hon. Members rose— Penny Mordaunt: No, the House should be clear that no alternative scheme is available. If the regulations Penny Mordaunt: Let me make a little progress and were revoked, a new scheme would have to be designed then I will give way. Our goal has been to create a and consulted on and then introduced in April, and pension scheme that is sustainable and fair to firefighters there is very little time to do that. [Interruption.] and the taxpayer. The need to reform public service pension schemes is well established and not in dispute, Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. as the right hon. Member for Leeds Central noted. The Minister must be heard. We have a short time for People are living longer, and the average 60-year-old this debate, and Members must not waste time by now lives 10 years longer than in the 1970s. The cost of jeering and laughing. public service pensions has increased in real terms by about a third over the last 10 years, and the most recent Penny Mordaunt: To refute the Opposition’s position fiscal projections from the Office for Budget Responsibility is a straightforward job, but it is not the one I will focus show that the gross cost of public service pensions is set on this afternoon. The fire service has had three years of to exceed £40 billion in the coming years. wrangling over the arrangements, and there have been Firefighters are not immune to those longevity increases, many changes to the scheme since it was originally and the average firefighter retiring aged 50 today after a proposed. Firefighters still have concerns, and we should 30-year career is expected to live and draw a pension for remember that this is their debate. Many have taken the 37 years in retirement. It should come as no surprise to time to lobby Members and to write to me and meet me, any Member of this House that a pension scheme in and we owe it to them to focus on the outstanding which the average member spends 25% more time in issues, the facts of the matter and their concerns for the retirement than in employment is not sustainable. [HON. future. This is an opportunity to air their worries and MEMBERS: “Give way!] I will take interventions, but I their suggestions as to what should be done. want to make some progress. That is why one of this I thank all hon. Members who have put in to speak, Government’s first acts was to ask Lord Hutton to raised their views with me or approached me with chair the independent public service pensions commission genuine concerns and in search of solutions. I am here and undertake a fundamental review of the structure of to listen, and I will do all I can to address those public service pension provision. Lord Hutton was clear concerns and provide reassurances, either today in the in his report that the status quo was not tenable, and he House or in the future. Let this debate be of the calibre proposed that a normal pension age for firefighters [Interruption.] that firefighters deserve, and let us remember that loose should be set at 60— talk has potentially damaging consequences for those in Lady Hermon: On a point of order, Madam Deputy the scheme, if they believe it. Many firefighters will be Speaker. I am sorry to have to make a point of order, making financial decisions about their families’ future but as the Minister is not prepared to give way I would based on the messages that they take away from today’s like to correct the record. There is no industrial dispute debate. Let us remember that what we do today has with firefighters in Northern Ireland, and I would like far-reaching consequences. the Minister to produce evidence that there is. Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): When the Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): The Minister has finished lecturing the House, will she hon. Lady will appreciate that that is not a point of kindly tell us why, if there is no alternative to what she order for the Chair; it is a contribution to the debate, proposes, the dispute has been settled in various parts and I am sure that the Minister will put her view or of the United Kingdom, within the same financial correct the record if she wishes in due course. [Interruption.] envelope? Why can she not even say how much this Perhaps the House will be quiet and allow the Minister unnecessary dispute is costing the public? to speak. There has been quite enough.

Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con) rose— Penny Mordaunt: The retirement age of 60 was introduced in the new firefighters pension scheme 2006—a Penny Mordaunt: I will take an intervention from my scheme that the shadow fire Minister, the hon. Member hon. Friend. for West Ham (Lyn Brown), helped to introduce as Parliamentary Private Secretary to the then Minister, Jake Berry: Let me return to the pertinent point—today’s and the same age that Lord Hutton said should apply to debate is important and members of the fire service members of the armed forces and the police. It is, who are in the Gallery will want to hear it. I visited however, well below the retirement age set for most Rossendale Rawtenstall fire station and had a meeting public sector workers, recognising the unique nature of with the Fire Brigades Union. Its two main areas of the occupation. Lord Hutton also proposed actuarially concern are, first, someone’s ability to be redeployed in fair early retirement terms, and that pensions should be the service at a similar level of pay and pension contribution calculated on a career average arrangement. He found if they fail the fitness test; and, secondly, some members that the firefighters pension scheme 1992 is the most of the fire service are disproportionately affected by expensive public service pension scheme, at 37.5% of having 20 years of service but not being 45 at the date pensionable pay. Currently, for every £1 a firefighter specified. Will the Minister provide further assurances? pays into the scheme, the taxpayer pays an extra £5. 1151 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1152 (England) (England) Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Will the hon. Madam Deputy Speaker: That is not a point of order. Lady give way? The Member who has the floor can answer interventions as he or she wishes. [Interruption.] Order. We will have Penny Mordaunt: I will make some progress. order in this House. This is a serious debate, not a In 2008-09 the taxpayer topped up the firefighters matter for squabble. Now stop the noise. pension fund with £260 million, just to meet that year’s expenditure. In 2012-13, the top-up was £370 million. Penny Mordaunt: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The top-up is forecast to rise to nearly £600 million by I know many Members wish to speak and make 2018-19, an increase of £340 million over 10 years. I am interventions. I am trying to take as many interventions sure that Members on both sides of the House would as I can, but if people want me to take fewer I will agree that it is not fair to expect taxpayers to meet all consider that. the increased costs— The Opposition and the FBU have two main issues: working until 60, and the impact that that might Mr Lammy: Will the Minister give way? have on a firefighter’s ability to have a full career and, consequentially, a full pension in the service. I have Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Mr Lammy, the Minister already mentioned that the normal pension age for is not giving way. firefighters has been 60 since 2006. That was introduced by a Labour Administration. It is the same age for Penny Mordaunt: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. members of the armed forces and the police under the I will take interventions, but I want to make some reforms. More than a third of firefighters currently in progress. the service are members of the 2006 scheme and have Those costs are being met by taxpayers, many of the expectation that they would retire at 60. A natural whom have no expectation of enjoying such a generous consequence of the 2006 scheme is that all firefighters pension. That is why we ask firefighters, like other public would, in due course, have a normal pension age of 60 servants, to pay more towards their pensions and rebalance without any further action by the Government. No the cost to the taxpayer. There have been three years of strike was called in 2006, and nothing was done by the negotiations and many changes to the scheme. The previous Administration—nor by the national joint council, notion that there has not is plainly untrue. which is made up of the employers and the FBU to oversee firefighters’ terms and conditions—to ensure Several hon. Members rose— that firefighters would get the support needed to work until 60. It is clear that this was not a particular area of Penny Mordaunt: I will turn to the issues of contention, concern to either the previous Government or the FBU but I will take interventions. in 2006, but it appears that it has become one now. I want all firefighters, whichever scheme they are on, to Mr Lammy: I am grateful to the Minister. Does she be confident that they will be able to work until their accept that one of the most serious incidents in the past normal pension age and achieve a full pension. few years that we asked firefighters to deal with were the riots that went on for four days? Does she accept Several hon. Members rose— that the taxpayer wants firefighters who are fit? Does she accept that 60 is too old, and that a fitness test they cannot meet causes huge concern in constituencies such Penny Mordaunt: I am going to finish this point. as mine? Older workers are vital to the fire service. They have technical knowledge and expertise, and a great knowledge Penny Mordaunt: I will take an intervention from my of, and contacts in, their local communities. In contrast hon. Friend. to the image of them as clapped out and not up to it, they are invaluable to the service. I want them to remain Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): Labour part of it. It is clear we need to address those concerns is pretending to be outraged. Will my hon. Friend to assure people in the service that they will be taken confirm that firefighters retiring at the age of 55 under care of if they cannot maintain their fitness and to give the new scheme will see a significantly smaller reduction younger workers the understanding that they can have a in their pension compared with the scheme introduced full career in the service. by Labour in 2006? Enough of this false outrage: let us talk about the substantive issue. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I thank the Penny Mordaunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. Minister for giving way and for reminding us that the I will come on to the point on fitness shortly. last Government raised the age to 60. Firefighters repeatedly ask me and want assurances about what other roles will Several hon. Members rose— be available for them at 55. Will she provide as much reassurance as possible on that issue, about which I and Penny Mordaunt: I will make some progress. many of my hon. Friends have concerns?

Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): On a Penny Mordaunt: On that point—seeing as I have point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it not a been asked to answer interventions immediately—I have convention of the House that, when an intervention is expanded the terms of reference of the fitness working taken, the speaker addresses that intervention and answers group to consider those work force management issues, it before taking another intervention? but I shall give further details about that later. 1153 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1154 (England) (England) [Penny Mordaunt] clear, through the fitness group’s work on good practice and by putting the framework on a statutory footing and The issue of fitness has been of personal interest to providing accompanying advice, that we expect fire and me. It is likely to be of particular concern to women in rescue authorities to do this. the fire service and is the most recent issue we have addressed in the changes we have made. Hon. Members Several hon. Members rose— will know that we have set up a working group on firefighter fitness to set out what good practice looks Penny Mordaunt: I will make a little more progress. like and to explore the future shape of the work force, Despite what the union claims, it remains the case and we have consulted on putting principles in the that under the regulation agreed in Scotland, it is for the national framework on a statutory footing to introduce employer to consider providing an unreduced pension protections for older workers. The consultation closed to a firefighter who loses their fitness. In those cases, on 9 December. I tabled a written ministerial statement they will have to make a judgment about whether there today, along with the proposed amendments to the are “mitigating circumstances” that mean an unreduced framework, and we are making the necessary statutory pension should be paid. That is the same judgment that instrument to bring it into force. English fire and rescue authorities will make. The only These principles were designed with the intention of difference is that, south of the border, decisions will ensuring that no firefighter aged 55 or over was dismissed have to be made having full regard to the fitness principles purely as a result of losing fitness through no fault of this Government have set out in the national framework— their own. If a firefighter loses health, either physical or and the fitness working group will identify good practice mental, they will be eligible for ill-health retirement, to help fire and rescue authorities in that task. and under the final regulations these will be better than the union’s alternative scheme design for “active factors”. Several hon. Members rose— If they lose fitness, they must be given the opportunity and support to regain it. If they cannot, again through Penny Mordaunt: There will, of course, be a few no fault of their own, they will be offered an alternative firefighters who cannot maintain operational fitness. In role or an unreduced pension. DCLG will audit compliance such instances, the fire and rescue authority will assess among fire and rescue services. why that might be the case. If a firefighter cannot I come now to the key point raised by the right hon. maintain operational fitness for a medical reason—it Member for Leeds Central. The union has argued that could be due to a deterioration in the joints, for instance— the framework is simply guidance that can be ignored, and that reason is permanent, they will be considered and it has cited legal advice it has received on that for ill-health retirement and payment of their unreduced point, but that advice is flawed. The national framework pension. Where there is no medical reason or the reason is not simply guidance; it is a statutory instrument, and is not permanent, Dr Williams found that the fire and under section 21 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 rescue authorities provide remedial training and that fire and rescue authorities must have regard to it in the the great majority of firefighters are able to increase exercise of their functions. their fitness levels within a few months. So we are To ensure that the fitness principles are being talking about a small group of people, but it is worth implemented effectively by fire and rescue authorities, I remembering, as I said, that many more firefighters have included in my proposals a review after three years. who may never find themselves losing capability will be The union claims this is the wrong kind of regulation— reassured by the fact that those protections are in place. Those protections will encourage people to stay in the Several hon. Members rose— service and in the pension scheme. As well as the work of the fitness working group, Penny Mordaunt: I will make some progress because much else is happening to improve the support and this is a central point. focus on fitness and well-being. Funds have been made The union wants another kind of regulation—at this available from the recent LIBOR fines to help firefighters time in the pension scheme. I have explained to the who suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. This is a union that the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 does diagnosable medical condition, so, depending on severity, not provide the power to put fitness or wider employment individuals would be eligible for ill-health retirement issues in the pension scheme. Without a single service, and payment of an unreduced pension. as there is in Scotland, there is no single fitness policy to refer to. Several hon. Members rose—

Sir Alan Beith: My hon. Friend is seeking to offer a Penny Mordaunt: The issue of mental health is rightly guarantee to firefighters in the position she describes, being given considerable focus with an additional £4 million but what would happen if, once this is implemented, a of the LIBOR funds being made available to Mind, the particular fire authority did not give that level of support mental health charity. In the remainder of this Parliament, to firefighters found to be unfit and did not implement I will be working with women’s groups in the fire service the guidance she describes? to examine what further we can do to promote good practice on issues of direct concern to them, and I Penny Mordaunt: As well as putting the framework would like to place on record my thanks for the time on a statutory footing, my Department will be auditing they have already taken to meet me. compliance. A small group of people might benefit It of course remains the case that some firefighters from the protections, but many more will be thinking may choose to leave the service before age 60, and the about their future in the service, and we need to make it scheme facilitates that by allowing firefighters to retire 1155 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1156 (England) (England) early on a cost-neutral basis and, as Lord Hutton The fire and rescue service faces a time of change as it recommended, with an actuarially fair reduction to responds to the changing needs and priorities of the reflect the longer time the pension is likely to be paid. communities it serves. If it is to reach its full potential, we need its firefighters to focus on that goal and not to Mr Bone: Will the Minister explain which firefighters be distracted by industrial action, divisive negativity, will be affected? Surely there must be a 10-year protection scaremongering, and poor employer practice. They deserve for existing firefighters at a certain age. What sort of better: they deserve better than the 2006 scheme. The protection will be provided; when is it going to kick in; new scheme provides substantially better early and flexible when will this first affect firefighters? retirement terms, focuses more on good practice in fitness, and pays more regard to supporting a more Penny Mordaunt: We have chosen to protect those diverse work force, and women in particular. who are closest to their retirement age—everyone within 10 years of that age. Hilary Benn: Will the Minister give way?

Several hon. Members rose— Penny Mordaunt: No. The right hon. Gentleman has had his say. Penny Mordaunt: I am going to make some progress The regulations that I have laid are fit for purpose, because I do not have a lot of time left. and follow the recommendations of both Lord Hutton and Tony Williams. They are enhanced by the changes Let me return to the issue of active factors, about in the national framework for fire and rescue for England, which I was asked earlier. Active factors present a very and underpinned by the working group facilitated by uncertain early retirement calculation, as they will be the chief fire and rescue adviser. very sensitive to short-term changes in inflation and earnings growth. For instance, the Government Actuary’s I understand that firefighters may not want to work Department has calculated that using the actual earnings longer than they planned to, but, although I have ensured and inflation figures between September 2008 and that those who are closest to their normal retirement September 2012 to set the factors would result in an age will be fully protected and will experience no change, early retirement reduction of about 27% at age 55 under not all of them can be immune to public service reforms active factors. This compares with the early retirement that are affecting every other public service work force. reduction of 21.8% under the 2015 scheme regulations—a The firefighters pension schemes have been reformed massive improvement, of course, and almost half of according to exactly the same principles as other public what the 2006 scheme introduced. [Interruption.] service pension schemes, and the 2015 firefighters scheme will remain one of the best. Several hon. Members rose— Members will be aware that if the regulations—which follow three years of negotiations—fall today, no scheme Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. will be in place after March 2015. The existing schemes The Minister is not giving way. Members must allow will be closed under the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 her—[Interruption.] Order. The House must allow the on 13 March 2015, and if a new scheme and transitional Minister to conclude her speech. protections for the old schemes are not put in place shortly, firefighters will not have access to a pension scheme from 1 April 2015, and those who have protections Penny Mordaunt: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. will have lost them. Given that time is short, I am going to turn to the Members will be able to express their thoughts about issue of redeployment opportunities, which many Members what action should be taken in future years, but, for all raised. Let me be frank that the availability of other the reasons that I have given, it is vital that these redeployment opportunities is a matter for the employers, regulations stand. but the situation today cannot be compared with what may be the case in 2022, just as it cannot be compared with the roles that applied a decade ago when fire and 5.32 pm rescue services were responding to twice as many incidents. Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): I would normally want Increasingly, firefighters are doing different jobs, working to say that the Minister had said something with which more closely with their communities to prevent fire or I agreed, but I have to say now that never in my time in developing more specialist rescue capabilities. the House have I heard a Minister try to flannel in this What I can say is that if firefighters are prepared to way by simply reading a speech without taking interventions extend their roles away from those prescribed in the even from her own side. I know that that has sent national joint council conditions of service—the “grey firefighters, and the public in general, the message that book”— more alternative roles may be possible. That in the Government are split on this issue. Many Back turn may allow the service to develop a more diverse Benchers who are present today would vote with us if work force that will benefit from the experience and they were not on a three-line whip. I hope that many of skills of older workers, more women, and members of them will see that this is the one occasion on which they other communities who remain under-represented. I might decide that it is worth rebelling, because the issue think that would be a good thing. is really important. As one who has been involved with the Fire Brigades Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): Union for many years, I feel that the union has a very Will my hon. Friend give way, on that point? fair case. This is not really about money. We have seen the settlement in Scotland, the settlement in Wales and Penny Mordaunt: Bear with me. the settlement in Northern Ireland, all of which have 1157 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1158 (England) (England) [Kate Hoey] fire authority or have been put forward by the fire authority, or are they women who are actually serving involved the same financial costs. Something very strange on the front line? There is a world of difference between has happened. The union was negotiating fairly, with the local fire authorities and the firefighters who have honesty and decency, and tried to secure a settlement their feet on the ground and carry the equipment. I am for months. When a new Minister arrived, the Minister a woman, and I have been to my fire station, Ampthill, and and the union met time after time. I could quote plenty I could not pick up the equipment. I am not unfit, but I of things that the Minister said that suggested that could never in a million years even lift that equipment. I movement was going to happen, but I will not do so, am 57, and I realise that my fitness has deteriorated to a because I know that many of my colleagues want to degree, which I have had no control over. I would like to speak. Suddenly, in October, everything stopped. I do know what those women on the front line feel they are not necessarily blame the Minister, because I know that actually able to deal with and work with. Ministers cannot always do what they would like to do, The lives and futures of many firefighters and their but someone, somewhere, prevented the negotiations families and children depend on this settlement and they from continuing. deserve better representation than they have had. Some Common sense could have sorted out an issue that is of the aggressive rhetoric, dialogue and language I have vitally important to the public. We can all sleep easy in been subjected to on Twitter—and I support the firefighters our beds at night because we know that the firefighters —has not been helpful to their cause. It has certainly not are out there ready to protect us. We have seen what been helpful when trying to get other MPs to support them. they have done when there have been terrible tragedies That aggression and language does not help at all. in this country. We saw it, for instance, when a helicopter crashed in my constituency recently. I simply do not I also ask the Minister to respond to the following understand how, in this day and age, when every other point for me. I know that it is the fire authority that part of the United Kingdom has been able to secure a decides what the levels of fitness should be and who settlement that is fair and within the cost constraints, takes responsibility, but in my experience too many we cannot have the same here today. members of the local fire authority do not even know about the job of firefighting. They do not consult active So I say to all Members that it is wrong that this firefighters and they do not even visit local fire stations, should have had to happen. The Opposition brought it, so I have no idea how they can understand the role—what but the Government should have brought this and is expected of firefighters and their changing role. When allowed this regulation to be voted on. I understand the Minister and her working party are looking at the that many Government Members will not want to rebel fitness assessments and how they are applied, will she and will feel they have to be loyal, but I say this to them: consider looking at the possibility of local firefighters “This is a matter where you really should examine your working in local stations becoming part of the process, conscience. Go and talk to your firefighters in your rather than having a top-down process whereby fire area. Listen to them, and they will be telling you today, authorities dictate to their work force? ‘These regulations could be revoked. We could go back and get a settlement long in time, and get it in place We have the cost-neutral alternative in Northern before 1 April’”. I hope all Members of all parties will Ireland, Scotland and Wales, so will the Minister tell us join together to support the FBU, and to publicly support why it works there and is not considered here? I know the firefighters and the public in what they want to see: those countries have probably less than half the number a decent deal for firefighters. of firefighters in the UK. A lot of people have already asked about this, so could the Minister give us more information? If the scheme is working in Scotland, 5.36 pm Northern Ireland and Wales, why is it not applicable to the UK? What can we do to make it applicable to the Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): I want to UK? make one point before I begin my very brief speech: if we ever needed a case illustrating why there should be I believe that the Minister has good intentions, and I English votes for English MPs, the hon. Member for understand that not everything is within her power, as Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) has made it throughout the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) has just this debate. This has nothing to do with firefighters in said. I know, and the firefighters know, that she is doing Scotland, and I fail to see why the hon. Gentleman her best. They also know that the age of 60 was brought constantly tried to derail the Minister. in by the previous Administration, who also ducked However, it is important in this debate that we realise bringing in the reforms that were necessary because of the role that firefighters play. We have not had a 9/11 in the changing demographics, which came in like a train. this country, but if we ever did, we would be aware, as Labour Members chose not to address that issue, so would the general public, of the worth of our firefighters. their faux outrage just does not carry water— I make that point to begin with because some of the representations I have heard are, “Firefighters are now Several hon. Members rose— fitting smoke alarms, talking to children in schools, and not fighting as many fires as they used to.” I want a firefighting force that is ready and able to do a job Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. should it need to be done—should a catastrophe, God The hon. Lady is about to conclude. forbid, ever hit our country. I am delighted to hear that the Minister is talking to Nadine Dorries: I am, and I would like to conclude by women’s groups, but I ask her to clarify whether the saying that if the Minister could answer my questions, I female firefighters she is talking to are members of the and my firefighters in Bedfordshire would be very grateful. 1159 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1160 (England) (England) 5.40 pm to do something more tonight. After the vote, I want them to send out to those 24 million households a copy Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): Let us try and of today’s Hansard, so that, somewhere down the line, if get to some of the facts. The people who did the one of those firefighters up in the Public Gallery dies medical assessments said quite clearly that almost none when they should not have been tackling a fire, or if one of the women assessed would be able to work after the of our constituents dies while being rescued by someone age of 55, and that 90% of the men would be unable to who should not have been doing the job, people will work after that age. My right hon. Friend the Member know who to point the finger at. for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) made that point earlier, but it was not mentioned at all by the Minister when she was asked what she was going to do. She said nothing Several hon. Members rose— about reducing the figure from 42 to 35, but to do so would be a classic way of getting round the wrong that Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. would be done by getting unfit people to do work that I tried to make the time limits on speeches voluntary should be done by fit people. but it is not really working, so we shall have to have a We have an agreement in Northern Ireland, Scotland time limit of three minutes if everyone is to have a and Wales, but we will have no agreement in this country chance to get in. unless people agree to go without 22% of their pension. The figure in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales is only 9%, and the unions agreed to that after proper 5.44 pm negotiations, but those on the Tory Front Bench clearly do not want such an agreement in this country. People Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The time are also talking as though the contributions come from available does not allow me to spend time discussing the nowhere, but the people who are paying into their value we attach to the fire service or the issues that arise pensions are paying at least £4,000 a year. They are because the previous Government introduced the age paying 14% of their wages. They are paying £61 a limit of 60, but there is a central issue— month more now than they were three years ago, despite the fact that they have not had a decent pay rise in the Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Will the right past four years. hon. Gentleman give way on that point? We have been here before, in the early 1980s and the 1990s when we were dealing with cuts in local government and thousands of people went out of the back door on Sir Alan Beith: No, in my three minutes I am going to ill-health retirement as a way of ameliorating the effects make an important point—there is a central point to of redundancies. The difference then was that the money make. The Minister’s written statement today states: was there to do it. It is clear that the squeeze on councils “These principles…will ensure that no firefighter faces a situation and fire authorities today will not allow people to where they are forced to retire without access to a fair pension be able to go in that way. The Government keep talking where they lose fitness through no fault of their own. about redeployment opportunities. I would love the I do not doubt her sincerity in asserting that that is what Minister to explain all this to the fire service in Tyne she believes should happen, but what I am still doubtful and Wear, where we are facing a 35% budget cut. The about, and what I still want to hear more about, is how part of the service laughingly known as the back-room we ensure that it does happen and that if a particular chunk of that represents 17% of the budget. We are fire authority does not apply those principles, some going to have to find twice as much money as those action is taken to protect the individual affected. I back-room costs, which is ludicrous. envisage a situation in which one or two fire authorities do not carry out the letter or the spirit of this framework Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My hon. Friend and I want to know what happens to the individuals in is describing cuts that are very similar to those being those cases. When people are as close as I am to implemented across Merseyside and all the metropolitan Scotland—at the border—they look over that border, boroughs. One of the many questions that the Minister and firefighters see clearer, firmer protection on the failed to answer is: where are these non-operational, other side. So I would like the Minister to give me back-room jobs for firefighters to go into if they do not clearer assurance as to how she ensures this happens. pass the fitness test? Merely stating that the framework is part of a statutory framework does not tell me how I can be sure that that Mr Anderson: Exactly. When the former fire Minister, firefighter can be protected. the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), Other firefighters are also affected adversely even if who is in his place, was asked by the Tyne and Wear fire we sort that issue out. For example, a man who has chief how he was supposed to implement the changes, served for 32 years and who had hoped to retire at 50 he was told to “get on and manage it”. There has been —he is under the previous scheme—will not now be cut after cut after cut. able to do so. There are also people who will be worse off if the kind of changes that have been proposed are Barbara Keeley: Will my hon. Friend give way? made, for example to assist those retiring at 55, 56 or 57 with a 12% rather than a 22% reduction. But members Mr Anderson: No, I must finish my speech. of the FBU have accepted that it might be reasonable to I will make one last point. In the past few weeks, help that particular group. My primary concern is for 24 million households in this country have had a tax the firefighters who, given a lack of non-operational receipt showing a breakdown of exactly where in the public jobs, find they are losing their job and do not know how sector their taxes have been spent. I ask the Government to enforce what the Minister has said tonight. 1161 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1162 (England) (England) 5.46 pm but Members from Northern Ireland said that it is — firefighters in England cannot have the same deal. I Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I am hope that the Government relent on the matter. If they delighted to have the opportunity to speak, Madam Deputy do not, I hope that there are enough Members on the Speaker, and I am pleased to follow the right hon. Government Benches who will abstain or vote against Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith). This their party to ensure that these regulations are revoked. is a simple issue but it has been complicated by today’s written ministerial statement. I do not have a declarable I have four quick questions for the Front-Bench interest, but I should point out that, as a former firefighter, team. First, in her written ministerial statement, the I was a member of the firemen’s pension scheme and I Minister says that section 22 of the Fire and Rescue served with the London fire brigade from 1974 to 1997. Services Act 2004 could be used. How many instances has that section been used by a Secretary of State? Various comments have been made about the Secondly, she said that fire authorities in the devolved “generosity” of the firefighters pension scheme, but I regions can initiate retirement, and that those initiated have to point out to the Minister that the contributions retirements are paid for by the Government, so why is to the scheme were hiked in the late ‘70s to 11% for that not happening in England? Thirdly, she says that firefighters to cover for partners and children who were the framework makes that not just advisory, but statutory. being left because firefighters were being killed and kids Will she put that in the Library of the House, because were being orphaned. The second point to make is that that is not the legal advice that our firefighters are the previous rules the Minister keeps referring to, requiring getting? Fourthly, she says that firefighters would see a compulsory retirement at 55 or after 30 years’ service, reduction in their pension of 21%. Does she think that were changed to allow and then to require firefighters that is the way to treat our fire brigade? to stay to 60. That was done on the basis of alternative jobs or an appropriate pension for those not making the standard. 5.51 pm Two points are important to note. First, firefighters Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): All of us elected to now pay 14.2% towards their pension, so this is not a Parliament bring with us the memories of our experiences cheap scheme. Secondly, and crucially, the alternative before we became MPs. For me, one such experience is employment is not there. That is due partly to general of having lived in New York at the start of the century— reductions in public expenditure, because of austerity, specifically of having lived there on 9/11. That day, and partly to the success of the service in helping to 341 of the 2,977 people who died were firefighters. They reduce the number of fires, which, alongside safer buildings, died running into buildings to help other people get out. smoke detectors, sprinklers, fewer smokers, legislation The firefighters in New York were heroes, and we have and so on, has led to smaller fire brigades. The alternative every expectation that our own firefighters in the same jobs just do not exist. So that is the first problem for the situation would act heroically as well. We have a special Government. responsibility today to get these regulations right. So, how are we doing? The answer must be: not very well. The second problem is on the fitness and health question. The Government commissioned Dr Tony We start with the shadow Secretary of State’s speech. Williams to make an assessment and he said that two It was very nice of him to quote my question and to see thirds might not be able to make the cut. The Minister him getting up to speed on this issue, but it is a little bit challenged that, but we need more information on how too late in the day. It was not clear whether his speech that could possibly be the case. Under these rules, was more about the specifics of the regulation or, since firefighters, through no fault of their own, risk losing a that postcard from Rochester and Strood, about the large amount of their pension that not only have they Labour party trying to reconnect to the working people worked and paid for, but most of us would say they are that it has left behind. Who better than the brother of a entitled to expect. wannabe viscount to lead that charge? These issues are substantive. If changing the retirement age is a substantive issue, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman knows what Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I he is doing. If, as we have heard from the right hon. come back to the point about two thirds of firefighters Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), the age of 60 is not making the cut. If we have a proposal here that two incorrect, what we will find is that we begin to undo the thirds of them are going to lose up to a quarter of their Public Service Pensions Act 2013 and let loose a £1 trillion pension, is there anybody with a fair mind who would liability on the public purse. I do not know what the think that is okay? intent of the shadow Secretary of State is. I do not know what the intent of the Leader of the Opposition is. On Jim Fitzpatrick: My hon. Friend makes an absolutely controlling energy prices, taxes on homes and pensions, appropriate point. Of course firefighters are not perfect, the right hon. Gentleman is a man who likes to throw and no group of workers is, not even MPs—most snowballs at the sun to claim that he creates Christmas, people would say especially not MPs. But there is nothing so that he can set false expectations for people. more galling for firefighters than to hear Ministers and Let me turn now to the Minister. In response to my MPs singing their praises for their emergency skills and question, she said that she would ensure that firefighters then treating them like this. Many Government Members who failed the fitness test would not lose their jobs. She recognise that that is not right, and many Liberal Democrats said that that guarantee could be given within the have signed the early-day motion. national framework agreement. The Local Government The Government have a chance to show decency, Association has clearly said that it would not be compelled common sense and fairness. The public wants to know to comply with it. That does not sound like a convincing why, if the devolved Assemblies can reach agreement on guarantee, does it? I say to my hon. Friend the Minister the matter—the Minister said that that is not the case, that she must make this guarantee a “must”, not a “may 1163 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1164 (England) (England) be” or a “trust me” but a “must”. We must ensure that But gratitude does not put food on the table and feed we give that guarantee to our firefighters to do them the kids. I salute the dedication, commitment and justice for their heroism on our behalf. professionalism of the men and women in our tremendous service. Let us get our act together tonight, revoke the 5.54 pm statutory instrument and negotiate a fair deal for firefighters. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Is it not an absolute 5.58 pm outrage that we have only 90 minutes in this zombie Parliament for such an important debate? This matter Dame Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) should have been worthy of at least a day’s debate. (Con): As my hon. Friend the Minister knows, I speak as a member of a fire service family. She has been very The men and women in the fire and rescue service do kind in meeting me on several occasions to answer my a tremendous and dangerous job. We are talking about many questions. My main concerns are: remaining not just their pensions and whether they finish at 55 or operationally fit to the age of 60; the absence of 60, but the safety and health of our constituents. I do redeployment opportunities; and the effect on pension not want a 60-year-old man or woman climbing up a entitlement for those firefighters who are unable to ladder, expecting to pull me—16 stone and 6 ft 1—out remain operationally fit. of a window and climbing back down the ladder again. If there is anybody here who thinks that is the right Firefighting is a physical occupation that requires a thing to do, they know how to vote tonight. We must high level of fitness to undertake tasks safely—safely treat this matter extremely seriously. We are not talking for the individual, their colleagues and members of the about a normal job here. It is a job for young, healthy public. The Williams review estimates that two thirds of people who keep themselves fit throughout their whole firefighters between the ages of 55 and 60 are below the career. They should not be doing this job in the twilight recommended fitness level, meaning not that they are of their career at 60 years of age. For heaven’s sake, overweight but that that age group has naturally occurring everybody knows that! It is no good trying to deny it. age-related conditions such as arthritis, worn joints and We want young men and women rescuing people in our many others. Firefighters are interdependent in dangerous communities. situations, and most aged 55 to 60 are not as fit as those half their age. When they go into a building that is on The matter has been sorted out in Northern Ireland, fire and full of smoke, they have to wear breathing Scotland and Wales. Why on earth can we not sort it out apparatus, and there might be people who have to be here in England? It is purely about ideology. Who do we brought out to safety. A watch is only as strong as its want to see when there is a bomb attack, a problem in weakest link. the tube station, an explosion or a fire? We want to see the fire and rescue brigade. Penny Mordaunt: I stress to my hon. Friend, whom I know is very concerned about these issues, not least Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman because of her connections, that a great many firefighters referred to Northern Ireland. Clearly, the Northern Ireland are already required to work until 60. At the moment, Assembly understand that there is a physical issue and older firefighters have no protections. We are introducing recognise what people are able to do at the age of 55 a measure that will improve the current situation and and 60. They have also secured their pension fund. ensure that if there is no operational role for someone Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that whereas to go into, they will get not just a pension but an Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland have accepted unreduced pension. the union’s view, here, in England, the supreme example of what is being done elsewhere cannot be done? Dame Angela Watkinson: I thank my hon. Friend for those comments. Ian Lavery: That is the very point I am trying to make. It is common sense. We are asking the Minister: Operational fitness has been a major concern in why not accept that here in England, when everywhere agreeing future employment and pension arrangements. else in the UK has? The answer has everything to do I have read in briefing material that two types of ill with ideology. There is no one who wants this change. health retirement attract immediate access to a reduced The general public are opposed to it; a large number of pension, but there is concern that another, wider group MPs are opposed to it; the workers are opposed to it; of firefighters will not meet the new fitness standards and the medical experts are emphatic in their opposition. and will be deemed not competent, but not permanently They say that it is not right to suggest that people unfit, and therefore will not eligible for an ill health aged 60 can do this sort of work. No one, apart from pension. If there are no redeployment opportunities—given this Government, supports this measure. We want the that, according to the FBU, only five fire authorities Government to reconsider. We want our firefighters to have 16 redeployment opportunities between them at have the same as the firefighters in Northern Ireland: the moment, that seems likely—they worry that they will retirement at 55 without any financial penalty. They are be at risk of dismissal without access to their pension losing 21.8% of their pension if they retire at the age until they reach the normal retirement age. It is the “No of 55. It is an absolute outrage. MPs would not accept job, no pension” spectre that they fear. I hope my hon. that, so why should members of the Fire Brigades Friend can say something about that in her concluding Union, people who support our communities? There comments. are no payment guarantees. We want law, not guidance. Will my hon. Friend also please clarify the effect of It is not good enough to say at the Dispatch Box and in the revised pension scheme on the following groups of a ministerial statement put out on the day of the debate firefighters who are no longer operationally fit: those that everything in the garden is rosy. We owe the members aged 55 to 60 with a diagnosable medical condition, of the fire and rescue service a huge debt of gratitude. whether job related or not; those aged 55 to 60 who 1165 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1166 (England) (England) [Dame Angela Watkinson] I have been contacted by a constituent, a 45-year-old firefighter. Under the pension scheme in place when he have failed the fitness standards, but without a diagnosable joined, he could have retired at 50 as he would have medical condition; and those two groups under the age accrued more than 25 years’service. However, the retirement of 55? Will they receive a full or reduced salary if age has been raised to 55, and because full pension redeployed? Will they receive a full or reduced pension protection will be given only to firefighters within 10 years if retired? Will pensions be paid immediately on retirement, of the normal pension age, from 2016 his pension will or will they have to wait until the normal retirement now be only partially protected. The situation is blatantly age? unfair to my constituent, who has paid into his pension Will my hon. Friend do more to encourage fire authorities scheme since joining the fire brigade and has always to reach a consistent standard, so that firefighters across been led to believe that his retirement year was 2020. He the country know what to expect with regard to their feels that he has been discriminated against on the basis pensions if they are deemed no longer competent to of age, and on the balance of evidence I find it difficult continue? It would help to avoid future strikes, which to disagree with that conclusion. nobody wants, firefighters least of all— Some firefighters will be penalised for their age. Although someone older with fewer years of service who is within Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. 10 years of the normal retirement age will be fully protected, my constituent and many others in a similar situation will not. I am sure that officials and legal 6.3 pm teams have applied their collective minds to the application Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): Perhaps I of the Equality Act 2010, because it seems to me that can get to the nub of the matter: lowering fitness this flies in the face of the spirit of the legislation, which standards to ensure that firefighters can work to the age is that workers should not be discriminated against on of 60 is reckless in the extreme. No responsible Government the basis of their age. would do that, because there is no doubt that it would Our firefighters routinely put themselves in danger in result in somebody dying. The Government should their line of work. They save lives and keep us safe. We think again. The Minister of State, Department for should value our fire services and the brave men and Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member women who keep them running. The minimum we for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), is on the record should expect is for the Government to ensure that as saying: services remains workable, keeping firefighters and the “The government believes a solution can be reached, but not public as safe as possible. Those who commit themselves under the shadow of industrial action, which only serves to to such a physically demanding career should have a damage firefighters’ good standing with the public. By calling fair pension scheme and should expect to be able to more strikes during an open consultation the FBU leadership has retire in security. Firefighters demonstrate great dedication once again shown it is not serious about finding a resolution.” to others and real determination in their line of work. I I thoroughly disagree. Reputational damage is indeed suggest that the Government take a lesson from our being caused, but not to our highly regarded and respected firefighters, take note of the points raised in this debate firefighters; it is the Government’s reputation that is and return to the negotiating table with a realistic and being trashed. fair proposal. Firefighting is a dangerous and physically demanding job. Firemen and women risk their lives rescuing people 6.7 pm from burning buildings and endanger themselves in Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a great hazardous situations in order to keep us safe. Most pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Middlesbrough people agree that, given their commitment and the risks (Andy McDonald), and I certainly agree with his tribute they take, they should be entitled to a fair and workable to firefighters. I find myself in a very difficult position pension scheme. It is the Government’s standing with tonight in deciding how to vote on this statutory instrument. the public, not the firefighters’, that is being damaged The very first debate I ever had in Westminster Hall was by this shambolic pensions dispute. on Rushden fire station, which the Conservatives were fighting to keep open and the Labour county council Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Does wanted to close. In Northamptonshire we have an excellent the hon. Gentleman agree that what is so depressing is fire and rescue service. In some respects it leads the not only the content of this debate, but the spirit in whole of Europe. [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member which it is being conducted? The Government are losing for Corby (Andy Sawford) want to intervene? I will tell faith with the firefighters and essentially blackmailing the hon. Gentleman, while I am at it, that Tom Pursglove, them. That is what is in front of them: a blackmail. the excellent Conservative candidate for Corby, and I They are being told to accept it or leave it. are today launching a campaign for more fire cover for north Northamptonshire. We will go up there tonight Andy McDonald: The hon. Lady makes a powerful and—[Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Corby point. Firefighters have been presented with a Hobson’s want to intervene? choice: to continue working in a dangerous job beyond Turning to firefighters’ pensions, there is one issue the point at which the body is capable, or to have their that seems to cut through all of this. I have spoken with pensions starkly reduced if they opt for retirement. the chief fire officer and the FBU representatives and Worse still, the Minister has said today that if firefighters seen firefighters on the picket line, and I went to see do not back down, they will have no cover whatsoever. Green Watch in Wellingborough. In all these disputes, What sort of a way is that to treat such valued public we should ignore the FBU and the employers and listen servants? to the actual firefighters and what they tell us. The one 1167 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1168 (England) (England) problem is that firefighters are genuinely worried that keep our people safe. I urge Members to support the when they get to 55 they might, through no fault of motion. This is not a party political debate. Vote tonight their own, lose their pension. If the Minister could give to enable the Government to have time to come back me an assurance that those firefighters would be redeployed and negotiate a settlement. or— A few years ago there was a peak in the number of firefighters who died protecting our country. I met their Penny Mordaunt: I am very happy to give those families. We have a duty of honour to the firefighters to assurances—[Interruption.] We have done that. protect them tonight, just as they protect our community.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I 6.13 pm want to hear the answer, and I am sure the rest of us will One and a half hours having elapsed since the gain from what the Minister has to say. commencement of proceedings on the motion, the Deputy Speaker put the Question (Standing Order No. 16(1)). Penny Mordaunt: If someone fails a fitness test through no fault of their own and they do not qualify for ill The House divided: Ayes 261, Noes 313. health retirement, they will get a redeployed role or an Division No. 114] [6.13 pm unreduced pension. That will be put on a statutory footing in the national framework—a full, unreduced AYES pension, if not an alternative role. Abbott, Ms Diane Cruddas, Jon Abrahams, Debbie Cryer, John Mr Bone: Having heard the words of the Minister, I Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Alex think the whole House can now support the statutory Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Mr Jim instrument. Alexander, Heidi Cunningham, Sir Tony Ali, Rushanara Curran, Margaret Allen, Mr Graham Dakin, Nic 6.10 pm Anderson, Mr David Danczuk, Simon John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I am Ashworth, Jonathan David, Wayne the secretary of the Fire Brigades Union parliamentary Austin, Ian Davidson, Mr Ian Bailey, Mr Adrian Davies, Geraint group. Firefighters expect the House to rise to the Bain, Mr William De Piero, Gloria occasion. This is not a party political issue. Balls, rh Ed Denham, rh Mr John In 2006, when the previous Government introduced Banks, Gordon Dobson, rh Frank the new pension scheme with later retirement at 60, I Barron, rh Kevin Docherty, Thomas opposed it, but at that time all those in the old pension Bayley, Hugh Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. scheme were given a guarantee and an assurance that Beckett, rh Margaret Donohoe, Mr Brian H. they would remain in that scheme and it would be Begg, Dame Anne Doran, Mr Frank protected. Those coming into the new scheme were told Benn, rh Hilary Doughty, Stephen that if there was a problem with regard to their fitness, Berger, Luciana Dowd, Jim there would be alternative jobs for them. Those alternative Betts, Mr Clive Doyle, Gemma Birtwistle, Gordon Dromey, Jack jobs did not exist. We identified only 15 over that whole Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dugher, Michael period. Since then we have lost 5,000 firefighter posts. Blears, rh Hazel Durkan, Mark In addition, the alternative jobs that existed have been Blomfield, Paul Eagle, Ms Angela reclassified from grey book to green book, which means Blunkett, rh Mr David Eagle, Maria cuts in pay. Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Edwards, Jonathan The firefighters therefore feel betrayed. They were Brennan, Kevin Efford, Clive given assurances, they signed up to the scheme, they entered Brown, Lyn Elliott, Julie a pension scheme as a legal agreement, they paid their Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Ellman, Mrs Louise contributions, and now they are seeing their pension Brown, Mr Russell Engel, Natascha Bryant, Chris Esterson, Bill put at risk, even those in the new scheme. All they are Buck, Ms Karen Evans, Chris asking for is for the House to rise to the occasion Burden, Richard Farron, Tim tonight, revoke the regulations and allow negotiations Burnham, rh Andy Field, rh Mr Frank to take place. Negotiations have worked in all the other Byrne, rh Mr Liam Fitzpatrick, Jim countries in the UK; they can work here as well. Campbell, rh Mr Alan Flello, Robert Our firefighters are anxious, first, that, as has been Campbell, Mr Ronnie Flint, rh Caroline reported, they will lose about 21% of their pension Caton, Martin Flynn, Paul entitlement. Secondly, the assurances that the guidelines Champion, Sarah Fovargue, Yvonne will be put on a statutory footing simply mean that fire Chapman, Jenny Francis, Dr Hywel authorities must have regard to those guidelines; they Clark, Katy Galloway, George will not be enforced on those authorities. That means Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gapes, Mike that firefighters could, if they are not fit enough, lose Clwyd, rh Ann Gilbert, Stephen Coaker, Vernon Glass, Pat their job and at the same time have their pensions cut Coffey, Ann Glindon, Mrs Mary considerably. That is what they are fearful of, and we Cooper, Rosie Godsiff, Mr Roger would all be fearful of that, wouldn’t we? Cooper, rh Yvette Goodman, Helen The other issue that firefighters have brought up is Corbyn, Jeremy Greatrex, Tom the fitness standards they have to meet. If they cannot Crausby, Mr David Green, Kate meet them, they are forced into that situation. They will Creagh, Mary Greenwood, Lilian therefore not be providing the level of service needed to Creasy, Stella Griffith, Nia 1169 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1170 (England) (England) Gwynne, Andrew Mearns, Ian Weir, Mr Mike Wood, Mike Hain, rh Mr Peter Miller, Andrew Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Woodcock, John Hamilton, Mr David Mitchell, Austin Whitehead, Dr Alan Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Hamilton, Fabian Moon, Mrs Madeleine Williams, Hywel Wright, David Hancock, Mr Mike Morden, Jessica Williams, Mr Mark Wright, Mr Iain Hanson, rh Mr David Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Williamson, Chris Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morris, Grahame M. Wilson, Sammy Tellers for the Ayes: Harris, Mr Tom (Easington) Winnick, Mr David Tom Blenkinsop and Harvey, Sir Nick Mudie, Mr George Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Phil Wilson Havard, Mr Dai Munn, Meg Healey, rh John Murphy, rh Paul NOES Hepburn, Mr Stephen Murray, Ian Hermon, Lady Nandy, Lisa Adams, Nigel Davies, David T. C. Heyes, David Nash, Pamela Afriyie, Adam (Monmouth) Hillier, Meg O’Donnell, Fiona Aldous, Peter Davies, Glyn Hilling, Julie Onwurah, Chi Alexander, rh Danny Davies, Philip Hodge, rh Margaret Osborne, Sandra Amess, Mr David Davis, rh Mr David Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Owen, Albert Andrew, Stuart de Bois, Nick Hoey, Kate Paisley, Ian Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Dinenage, Caroline Hood, Mr Jim Perkins, Toby Bacon, Mr Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kelvin Phillipson, Bridget Baker, rh Norman Dorries, Nadine Hosie, Stewart Pound, Stephen Baker, Steve Doyle-Price, Jackie Howarth, rh Mr George Powell, Lucy Baldry, rh Sir Tony Drax, Richard Hunt, Tristram Pugh, John Baldwin, Harriett Duddridge, James Huppert, Dr Julian Qureshi, Yasmin Barclay, Stephen Duncan, rh Sir Alan Irranca-Davies, Huw Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Barker, rh Gregory Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jackson, Glenda Reed, Mr Jamie Bebb, Guto Ellis, Michael James, Mrs Siân C. Reed, Mr Steve Bellingham, Mr Henry Ellison, Jane Jamieson, Cathy Reeves, Rachel Benyon, Richard Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jarvis, Dan Reynolds, Emma Beresford, Sir Paul Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, rh Alan Reynolds, Jonathan Berry, Jake Evans, Graham Johnson, Diana Riordan, Mrs Linda Bingham, Andrew Evans, Jonathan Jones, Graham Robertson, Angus Blackwood, Nicola Evans, Mr Nigel Jones, Helen Robertson, John Blunt, Crispin Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr Kevan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Boles, Nick Fabricant, Michael Jones, Susan Elan Rotheram, Steve Bone, Mr Peter Fallon, rh Michael Kane, Mike Roy, Mr Frank Bottomley, Sir Peter Featherstone, rh Lynne Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Roy, Lindsay Bradley, Karen Field, Mark Keeley, Barbara Ruane, Chris Brady, Mr Graham Foster, rh Mr Don Kendall, Liz Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Brake, rh Tom Fox,rhDrLiam Khan, rh Sadiq Sanders, Mr Adrian Bray, Angie Francois, rh Mr Mark Lammy, rh Mr David Sarwar, Anas Brazier, Mr Julian Freeman, George Lavery, Ian Sawford, Andy Bridgen, Andrew Freer, Mike Lazarowicz, Mark Seabeck, Alison Brine, Steve Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Shannon, Jim Brokenshire, James Fuller, Richard Lewis, Mr Ivan Sharma, Mr Virendra Browne, Mr Jeremy Gale, Sir Roger Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sheerman, Mr Barry Bruce, Fiona Garnier, Mark Long, Naomi Sheridan, Jim Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Gauke, Mr David Love, Mr Andrew Shuker, Gavin Buckland, Mr Robert Gibb, Mr Nick Lucas, Caroline Skinner, Mr Dennis Burley, Mr Aidan Gilbert, Stephen Lucas, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Burns, Conor Glen, John Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burns, rh Mr Simon Goldsmith, Zac Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Nick Burrowes, Mr David Goodwill, Mr Robert Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Owen Burt, rh Alistair Gove, rh Michael Malhotra, Seema Straw, rh Mr Jack Byles, Dan Graham, Richard Mann, John Stringer, Graham Cairns, Alun Grant, Mrs Helen Marsden, Mr Gordon Stuart, Ms Gisela Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gray, Mr James McCabe, Steve Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Carmichael, Neil Grayling, rh Chris McCann, Mr Michael Tami, Mark Cash, Sir William Green, rh Damian McCarthy, Kerry Thomas, Mr Gareth Chishti, Rehman Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McClymont, Gregg Thornberry, Emily Chope, Mr Christopher Griffiths, Andrew McDonagh, Siobhain Timms, rh Stephen Clappison, Mr James Gummer, Ben McDonald, Andy Trickett, Jon Clark, rh Greg Gyimah, Mr Sam McDonnell, John Turner, Karl Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hague, rh Mr William McFadden, rh Mr Pat Twigg, Derek Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Halfon, Robert McGovern, Jim Twigg, Stephen Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hames, Duncan McInnes, Liz Umunna, Mr Chuka Collins, Damian Hammond, Stephen McKechin, Ann Vaz, rh Keith Colvile, Oliver Hancock, rh Matthew McKenzie, Mr Iain Vaz, Valerie Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hands, rh Greg McKinnell, Catherine Walley, Joan Crabb, rh Stephen Harper, Mr Mark Meacher, rh Mr Michael Watson, Mr Tom Crouch, Tracey Harrington, Richard Meale, Sir Alan Watts, Mr Dave Davey, rh Mr Edward Harris, Rebecca 1171 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 15 DECEMBER 2014 Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1172 (England) (England) Hart, Simon Lilley, rh Mr Peter Penning, rh Mike Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lloyd, Stephen Penrose, John Sturdy, Julian Hayes, rh Mr John Lopresti, Jack Percy, Andrew Swales, Ian Heald, Sir Oliver Lord, Jonathan Perry, Claire Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Heath, Mr David Loughton, Tim Phillips, Stephen Swinson, Jo Heaton-Harris, Chris Luff, Sir Peter Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swire, rh Mr Hugo Hemming, John Lumley, Karen Pincher, Christopher Syms, Mr Robert Henderson, Gordon Macleod, Mary Poulter, Dr Daniel Teather, Sarah Hendry, Charles Main, Mrs Anne Prisk, Mr Mark Thornton, Mike Herbert, rh Nick Maude, rh Mr Francis Randall, rh Sir John Thurso, rh John Hinds, Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Redwood, rh Mr John Timpson, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tomlinson, Justin Hollingbery, George McCartney, Jason Reevell, Simon Tredinnick, David Hollobone, Mr Philip McCartney, Karl Reid, Mr Alan Truss, rh Elizabeth Holloway, Mr Adam McIntosh, Miss Anne Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Turner, Mr Andrew Hopkins, Kris McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Tyrie, Mr Andrew Howarth, Sir Gerald McPartland, Stephen Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Uppal, Paul Howell, John McVey, rh Esther Robertson, Mr Laurence Vaizey, Mr Edward Hughes, rh Simon Menzies, Mark Rogerson, Dan Vara, Mr Shailesh Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Metcalfe, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew Vickers, Martin Hunter, Mark Miller, rh Maria Rudd, Amber Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Hurd, Mr Nick Mills, Nigel Ruffley, Mr David Walker, Mr Charles Jackson, Mr Stewart Milton, Anne Rutley, David Walker, Mr Robin James, Margot Moore, rh Michael Sandys, Laura Wallace, Mr Ben Javid, rh Sajid Mordaunt, Penny Scott, Mr Lee Ward, Mr David Jenkin, Mr Bernard Morgan, rh Nicky Selous, Andrew Watkinson, Dame Angela Jenrick, Robert Morris, Anne Marie Shapps, rh Grant Webb, rh Steve Johnson, Gareth Morris, David Sharma, Alok Wharton, James Johnson, Joseph Morris, James Shelbrooke, Alec Wheeler, Heather Jones, Andrew Mosley, Stephen Shepherd, Sir Richard White, Chris Jones, rh Mr David Mowat, David Simmonds, Mark Whittaker, Craig Jones, Mr Marcus Mundell, rh David Simpson, Mr Keith Whittingdale, Mr John Kawczynski, Daniel Munt, Tessa Skidmore, Chris Wiggin, Bill Kelly, Chris Murray, Sheryll Smith, Chloe Willetts, rh Mr David Kirby, Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Smith, Henry Williams, Stephen Knight, rh Sir Greg Neill, Robert Smith, Julian Williamson, Gavin Kwarteng, Kwasi Newmark, Mr Brooks Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Willott, Jenny Lamb, rh Norman Newton, Sarah Soubry, Anna Wilson, Mr Rob Lancaster, Mark Nokes, Caroline Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wollaston, Dr Sarah Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Norman, Jesse Spencer, Mr Mark Wright, rh Jeremy Latham, Pauline Nuttall, Mr David Stanley, rh Sir John Wright, Simon Laws, rh Mr David O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim Leadsom, Andrea Offord, Dr Matthew Stevenson, John Young, rh Sir George Lefroy, Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Stewart, Bob Zahawi, Nadhim Leigh, Sir Edward Opperman, Guy Stewart, Iain Leslie, Charlotte Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Stewart, Rory Tellers for the Noes: Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Paice, rh Sir James Streeter, Mr Gary Gavin Barwell and Lewis, Brandon Parish, Neil Stride, Mel Lorely Burt Lewis, Dr Julian Patel, Priti Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Question accordingly negatived. Lidington, rh Mr David Pawsey, Mark 1173 15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1174

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill I hope you will allow me a little leeway, Mr Streeter, before we begin the debate. Although this Bill has nothing [Relevant documents: Oral evidence taken before the Home to do with what has happened in Sydney, Australia, I Affairs Committee on 3 December 2014, on the Counter- think it would be appropriate for the Committee to Terrorism and Security Bill, HC 838; Written evidence to recognise that there has been a serious incident there the Home Affairs Committee, on the Counter-Terrorism and for us to express our condolences in relation to and Security Bill, reported to the House on 3 December 2014, those who have died as a result. It reminds us that HC 838; Oral evidence taken before the Joint Committee terrorism and terrorist activity are never far from our on Human Rights on 26 November 2014, on counterterrorism shores and from individuals in our communities as well. and human rights; Written evidence to the Joint Committee That is why it is important that we look at the new clauses on Human Rights, on counter-terrorism and human rights, and amendments before us in what will be, I hope, a reported to the House on 26 November 2014, HC 836; positive discussion and debate. Oral evidence taken before the Joint Committee on Human Rights on 3 December 2014, on the Counter-Terrorism The Government believe there is a need to legislate and Security Bill, HC 859; Written evidence to the Joint on counter-terrorism. There is a terrorism threat in the Committee on Human Rights, on the Counter-Terrorism United Kingdom: on 29 August the independent joint and Security Bill, reported to the House on 3 December 2014, terrorism analysis centre raised the UK national terrorist HC 859.] threat level from substantial to severe. [Interruption.]

[2ND ALLOCATED DAY] The Temporary Chair (Mr Gary Streeter): Order. I Further considered in Committee am reluctant to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but a lot of background conversations are going on in the [MR GARY STREETER in the Chair] Chamber and we can hardly hear the most important speech that is being made. Will colleagues please keep Clause 1 the noise down?

SEIZURE OF PASSPORTS ETC FROM PERSONS SUSPECTED Mr Hanson: I am grateful to you, Mr Streeter. OF INVOLVEMENT IN TERRORISM It is important that we recognise that terrorist attacks 6.28 pm are, sadly, highly likely. According to the Government’s Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I beg to move own analysis in the explanatory notes: amendment 29, page 1, line 8, at end insert— “Approximately 500 individuals of interest to the police and security services have travelled from the UK to Syria and the ‘(2) This section shall be repealed on 31 December 2016 unless region since the start of the conflict. It is estimated half of these both Houses of Parliament have passed a resolution that it have returned. In the context of this heightened threat to our should continue in force until a future date. national security, the provisions of the Bill” (3) The date specified in a resolution of both Houses of are designed to address those matters. Parliament under subsection (2) may be modified by subsequent resolutions of both Houses of Parliament.” My hon. Friends the Members for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) and for Sedgefield (Phil The Temporary Chair (Mr Gary Streeter): With this it Wilson) and I have tabled amendments 29 and 17 because will be convenient to discuss the following: there needs to be a debate about two particular issues. If Clause 1 stand part. the Bill’s measures are agreed by both Houses they will Amendment 17, in schedule 1, page 30, line 14, at end become law, but there will be no end date or review date insert— for the powers. Amendment 29 seeks to ensure that “(c) the individual subject whose travel document has been clause 1 removed may appeal against this decision in the “shall be repealed on 31 December 2016 unless both Houses of courts over the evidence on which conditions in Parliament have passed a resolution that it should continue in paragraph 2(1)(a) and (b) of this schedule were met.” force until a future date.” Government amendment 13. It goes on: Schedule 1 stand part. “The date specified in a resolution of both Houses of Parliament New clause 8—Police bail for terrorism suspects— under subsection (2) may be modified by subsequent resolutions of both Houses of Parliament.” ‘(1) Section 34 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 is amended as follows. The amendment is therefore designed to create, in effect, (2) In subsection (1) after “offence” insert “or on suspicion of a sunset clause to review the legislation, which is not being a terrorist under section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000”. unusual for terrorism legislation. It would not demand (3) In subsection (2)(b) after “Act” insert “or section 41 of the that we revisit the whole clause by seeking to enact new Terrorism Act 2000″. legislation; it would simply require a resolution to allow the provisions to continue. The amendment has merit (4) After subsection (5) insert— and I will willingly discuss it with the Minister. “(5A) A grant of bail under this section shall last no longer than six months from the date of release.” Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): As an alternative to the ad hoc passport seizure and retention Although I agree with the shadow Minister that that scheme set out at Clause 1 and Schedule 1 of the Bill this new amendment does, in principle, have some merit and that clause would make police bail, with conditions, available for those it focuses the mind on the fact that we need consolidating suspected of terrorism. legislation to deal with a whole range of different Mr Hanson: Mr Streeter, I welcome you to the Chair terrorism-related issues, does he not recognise that the of the Committee. I rise on behalf of my hon. Friends raw logic of his proposal is that if such a sunset clause is to speak to amendments 29 and 17. agreed, the provisions could end up entirely unprotected 1175 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1176 if the Government did not introduce any new legislation The Secretary of State is also bound by schedule 1 to at that point? That would not be a desirable state produce a code of practice covering training, the exercise of affairs. of functions by constables, the information to be given, and how and when that information is to be given. The Mr Hanson: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has code of practice will be published in draft and laid looked carefully at amendment 29, which states: before this House. All those matters are covered by “This section shall be repealed on 31 December 2016 unless schedule 1. both Houses of Parliament have passed a resolution that it should I have gone through the schedule in detail because it continue in force”. covers an awful lot of potential activity that may or may Therefore, it does not require new legislation; it simply not work as the Government intend it to. The purpose of requires a resolution of this House, which could be our proposed sunset clause is not to say that Her Majesty’s agreed in an hour-and-a-half debate, as has happened Opposition oppose clause 1 or schedule 1, because, in the past. Indeed, clause 17(5) states: although some Members might, we do not. Our amendment “Subsections (1) to (4) are repealed on 31 December 2016”, addresses the fact that the schedule proposes creating a so there is already a remit for a resolution to review the complex new code of practice relating to the criteria provisions. Amendment 29 has a similar purpose. covering individual officers and others who can exercise Amendment 17 is slightly different. It states that, if the powers, including removing the passports of not an individual has had their travel document removed only British citizens but citizens of foreign countries. under the provisions of clause 1 and schedule 1, they If we enact that in the next few weeks, it will be a “may appeal against this decision in the courts over the evidence serious piece of legislation. In view of the reasons the on which conditions…of this schedule were met.” Minister has given for introducing the provisions, it At the moment there is no appeal procedure for an would do no harm for him to consider—this is the individual who has lost their passport, and that needs to purpose of amendment 29—a date for us formally to be considered. allow the legislation to fall, unless the House is satisfied On amendment 29, clause 1 introduces schedule 1, with the original proposal. By December 2016, there which defines a number of areas and sets out a course will have been a general election and the House of of action relating to the seizure of a passport from a Commons will be composed of whoever has been elected, person suspected of involvement in terrorism offences. and whoever is the Minister will be able to review the Under the heading “Interpretation”, the schedule states legislation to see whether it works. They would then be that immigration officers, customs officials, qualified able to table a motion to pass a resolution allowing the officers and senior police officers can remove a passport legislation to continue unamended. from an individual. By “passport”, it means either a United Kingdom passport or one issued by another Mark Field: The shadow Minister is making some nation. The schedule defines involvement in terrorism- fair points and I think the whole House would broadly related activity as the commission, preparation or instigation support the idea that we need to consider how the Bill of acts of terrorism; conduct that facilitates the commission will be applied in practice. We all recognise that the new of terrorism; conduct that gives encouragement to terrorism; powers raise some legitimate concerns relating to civil and conduct that gives support or assistance to terrorism. liberties. Rather than having a sunset clause, has the The schedule also includes powers to search for, inspect right hon. Gentleman given some thought to the idea of and retain travel documents. Authorisation for that will imposing on the Home Office an obligation, within a not just be sought from a senior police officer; the year of the Bill being enacted, to produce a full report schedule also includes conditions for how that authorisation on the workings of this novel change in procedure? will be agreed. Mr Hanson: We did consider those matters and I I refer to those points because they are definitive originally drafted an amendment that sought to do statements. They may or not be appropriate or work in that. I could have tabled it last Thursday but I decided practice, but whatever the Minister tells us today he will to focus our debate on whether the legislation is fit for accept that the Prime Minister indicated in his purpose. I am not saying that it is not; I am simply announcement at the end of August that the measures saying that there are severe changes in the Bill that would be introduced. It is now December, which means restrict individuals, give powers to police officers and that the Bill has been drafted speedily. I make no others, set out a new code of practice and give a range general criticism of that, but even the Bill’s explanatory of powers to the Secretary of State to do what they wish notes state that there has been limited consultation on a with detained individuals. If the Opposition are to range of aspects, even though the matters covered in support the clause this evening, as we will, it must be schedule 1 involve serious powers. reviewed at some point in the future. The mechanism we The schedule allows for the period in which the suggest means that a Minister, whoever that might be, document can be removed and retained by the judicial must review the situation and either table a motion or, if authority to be extended from the initial 14-day period the legislation ultimately falls, table a replacement piece to 30 days. Paragraph 14 states: of legislation in time for 31 December 2016. “This paragraph applies where a person’s travel documents are I am not seeking to cause difficulties for the Minister retained”. with amendment 29. I simply want him to consider in Paragraph 14(2) gives the Secretary of State a great power: detail his proposals in clause 1 and schedule 1 and “The Secretary of State may make whatever arrangements he whether we should have a sunset clause. We want such a or she thinks appropriate in relation to the person… during the clause because one of the gaps in the legislation means relevant period” that there is no mechanism for appeal in the event of the and powers in schedule 1 or clause 1 being exercised against “on the relevant period coming to an end.” an individual. An individual’s travel documents will be 1177 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1178

[Mr Hanson] 6.45 pm removed for 14 days, and potentially for 30 days, but Mr Hanson: This is a very strong and effective power, in the meantime there is no mechanism through which they which the Opposition support as it will ensure that can appeal effectively against that decision. Amendment 17 measures are taken against individuals who might go allows for an appeal in the courts on the subject of abroad for terrorist purposes, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman accepts that one of the balances of strong “the evidence on which conditions in paragraph 2(1)(a) and (b) of powers is the right to strong redress. It might only be for this schedule were met”. 14 days, as he says, or it might be for only 30 in due The Committee will agree that the right of British course, but that could mean losing a £5,000 or £6,000 citizens to travel freely, unrestricted by state interference, holiday with no compensation, missing a family wedding is crucial and historical. or a person’s own wedding or losing a job opportunity for what could be a case of mistaken identity. Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP): Given the right hon. Gentleman’s concern, would not the right Mr Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con) rose— approach be to accept his amendment 17 and the judicial right of appeal rather than having a sunset clause? Does he plan to press that amendment to a vote? Mr Hanson: I will let the right hon. and learned Gentleman intervene, because I know that he has expressed Mr Hanson: I welcome the hon. Gentleman back to concerns about the power. In a very helpful article in this place, as this is the first opportunity I have had to The Guardian on 3 September, he said: do so. I shall wait to see what the Minister says, but I am “Allowing police to confiscate passports at the UK border to minded to say that it is important that the right of prevent an aspiring young jihadi from leaving for Syria via appeal is paramount. The Minister might or might not Istanbul may be justifiable on good intelligence…But unless there accept the amendment and I will have to listen carefully is some rapid means of review there must be the likelihood that mistakes will occur as the use of this administrative power increases to his argument, but if he does not accept it there will be and perfectly innocent…people will find their travel plans wrecked.” an opportunity to test the will of the Committee should we so wish. I agree with him and that is why, even given the 14-day period, I think that we should consider the proposal in Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): The shadow amendment 17. I hope that the Minister will do so. Minister has already said that schedule 1 is detailed and that there is a lot to contemplate in it. Would not adding Mr Grieve: I expressed that concern and it remains a the right to appeal further complicate it? People will concern, but the interesting point about amendment 17 already get their passport back after two weeks, so why is that if we were to allow an appeal, as the right hon. this additional complication? Gentleman describes it, how quickly could such an appeal be heard and would it have a significant impact Mr Hanson: I was coming on to those points, but I on the shortness of time in which a passport might be am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. It capable of being returned, given that we now know that might help if I outlined some of the circumstances. If there will be two weeks, or 14 days, for that return to an individual’s passport is removed, it will be because take place? I listened carefully to what he has to say and there is reasonable suspicion that he is involved in some it seems to me that he is making a good point, but I activities that mean he should not travel abroad. That would also be interested to hear from my hon. Friend suspicion might be well founded—I am trying to be fair, the Minister and from the right hon. Gentleman how and I doubt that the power would be exercised if it were such a system could be made to work in reality. not well founded—but there still might be occasions when an individual was travelling to a difficult, challenging The Temporary Chair (Mr Gary Streeter): Order. country for a family wedding, a holiday, an employment Before I call the shadow Minister, let me say that interview, or for other perfectly legitimate reasons. The interventions should be slightly briefer than that. security services might wrongly identify an individual; that can occasionally happen. The individuals responsible Mr Hanson: Thank you, Mr Streeter. I take the point might have challenges for a range of reasons. The made by the right hon. and learned Member for information supplied to the security services—for example, Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), but we are in opposition, by a parent whose adult child is travelling—may be wrong. which is a difficult and cold place. We do not have the The simple point is that if that power is exercised, the officials that the Minister has. The principle is that we individual loses their passport and their ability to travel believe there should be an examination of the right of and so might well miss a job interview, a family wedding appeal on any decision that has taken. The purpose of or a holiday and might be wrongly marked out in their amendment 17 is to place that argument before the social circles. That could happen. I am not saying that it Government so that they can say whether they believe will, but it could. Amendment 17 is meant to ensure there should be any right of appeal or whether they that if that individual feels that they have been wrongly believe that 14 days or 30 days is sufficient, for the treated, they have a right to ask for a review by a court. reasons given by the hon. Member for Skipton and It is reasonable to do that under UK law. Ripon (Julian Smith) and by the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield, and that there is no need for Julian Smith: After two weeks, the individual will get an appeal as it would not resolve the issue. It is inherent their passport back anyway. This is a really wishy-washy in any decision of this seriousness that an individual way of carrying on, and we should either be confident should be able to challenge a decision on the grounds of that this is a good measure or not. They will get their mistaken identity or the grounds of loss of service in a passport back within two weeks. court. 1179 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1180

Mr Grieve: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman Mr Hanson: That suggestion is worthy of consideration. for giving way and I apologise, Mr Streeter, for taking The official Opposition tabled an amendment to say up too much time. I shall be brief and make more that there should be a right of appeal for the reasons frequent interventions, if I am allowed them. It seemed that the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield to me when I made that point back in September that a set out. That concern is shared by Members across the particular concern was somebody who might be prevented House. It is a basic right of appeal. We can look at how from going away for a wedding or for employment it could be exercised, as ever. We might be able to reasons and who wanted a rapid review, but I am also improve the amendment technically. However, if we had realistic about whether such a rapid review can be made not tabled amendment 17, we would not be having a available in practice. That was why I raised at a subsequent debate about the right to appeal against this measure. date the other question of whether we should consider The purpose of the debate is to say to the Minister that compensation if somebody were disadvantaged. we think there should be a right of appeal. If the Minister is sympathetic to that idea, he can take it away. Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that point and we probably Mark Field rose— agree on the principle. The purpose of amendment 17 is to give the Minister the opportunity to tease out the Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind) rose— practicalities of deliverability for any form of appeal. I take the view—it may be old-fashioned, but that is not Mr Hanson: I give way first to the hon. Gentleman. for me to say—that if someone is effectively charged with involvement in terrorism, which is why a passport Mark Field: Perhaps I do not share the great faith in will be removed, that is a serious initial action by the the bureaucratic competence of the Home Office that state against an individual. The individual might be the was expressed by the hon. Member for Islington North subject of mistaken identity or factually wrong information (Jeremy Corbyn)— might have been given, whether maliciously or not. They might be travelling for perfectly legitimate purposes, as I have said. In each of those cases, they should Jeremy Corbyn: It was the opposite. ultimately have the right to say to a third party, “I appreciate that these facts have been put before the passport remover, Mark Field: I guessed that that was the case. I was but they are fundamentally wrong and I demand my being slightly ironic. One issue with the notion that we passport back.” That must be possible in a more speedy could have appeals is that if there was a great emergency and effective way than is the case under the Bill. and the passports of many dozens or even many hundreds of people were seized, the appeals process would become Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Is it not unwieldy. One hopes that such a situation will not come the case, if we believe in fairness and the rule of law, about. If there was a small number of individuals at any that the stronger the action taken against an individual one time, it would be quite manageable, but if there was by the state, the more powerful the argument is that the a large number, that would make it more difficult. individual should have the right of appeal? Without the right of appeal, the Bill gives the state excessive powers. Mr Hanson: We do not yet know on how many occasions the power will be exercised. I suspect that a Mr Hanson: That is an important point. vast number of passports will not be seized, but we cannot anticipate that. According to the Government’s As the Committee will know, under schedule 7 to the explanatory notes, Terrorism Act 2000, there is the power to stop and question individuals who are suspected of involvement “500 individuals of interest to the police…have travelled from the UK to Syria…since the start of the conflict.” in terrorism. The annual report on the Terrorism Acts by the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, That has happened over the past 18 months to three David Anderson QC, that was published in July this years. The number of individuals travelling out of the year gave facts and figures about that power. It included UK who may be of interest might be small, but that the number and ethnicities of the people who have been does not mean that they should not have the right of examined under schedule 7 in recent years. Although he appeal because, as I have said, mistakes can be made. noted that there was not overwhelming evidence that I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for North the power was exercised in a “racially discriminatory Down (Lady Hermon). manner”, he noted: “It remains imperative that police should exercise their considerable Lady Hermon: I am grateful to the shadow Minister powers in a sensitive, well-informed and unbiased manner”. for referring to me as his hon. Friend. I remind my right hon. Friend that, as he would have been well aware Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Would the when he was in the Northern Ireland Office, under the proposal in amendment 17 not be stronger if there was Belfast agreement, which was signed on Good Friday, a time limit within which the Home Office had to reply people who are born in Northern Ireland are entitled to to the application to remove a passport, so that the citizenship of the Irish Republic and the United Kingdom, court would have to consider the matter in a timely and to hold the passport of the United Kingdom, the manner? There is a parallel in the people who are passport of the Irish Republic or both. If those travel denied entry to this country or are deported from this documents were confiscated, would it be the Irish passport country and who have to appeal from a third country. and the British passport for those who have both? There The fact that there is no time limit means that the has to be some form of appeals mechanism if they are injustices that such cases often involve can go on for a confiscated, because the issue is even more complicated very long time. if people are leaving or entering Northern Ireland. 1181 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1182

Mr Hanson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that Mr Hanson: That is a valid point, but judicial review comment. She will see that under paragraph 1(7) of is not what I would call a cheap and easy process. It schedule 1, passport means “a United Kingdom passport” could not be accessed quickly and easily by an individual or who had lost their passport in the circumstances set out “a passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country in schedule 1. The hon. Gentleman will see that we have or territory outside the United Kingdom, or by or on behalf of an included in amendment 17 a reference to appeal “in the international organisation”. courts”. That is intended to stimulate debate—it could It is imperative that we consider the issue of appeals be a magistrates court, a court sitting in private or a because foreign citizens or citizens of the UK might Crown court. We simply say that the appeal should be have two passports. in a court. The schedule allows the Secretary of State to produce a code of practice, which could indicate which If information is provided about an individual, this court should deal with such matters and whether it measure will allow the serious act of removing their could sit in private. It would be reasonable for the code passport and stopping them travelling. Although it will of practice to do that. no doubt be very well researched, very well executed and very well managed by the security services, the police, immigration officers and others who are allowed 7pm to undertake these matters under schedule 1, the possibility My purpose in tabling amendment 17 was to focus on of wrong or disputable facts will always be there. Those the issue of appeals. I will be happy to withdraw it if the wrong or disputable facts will mean that a UK citizen Minister provides reassurance, or we might revisit the loses their liberty, their passport and their ability to matter in the other place. However, since the publication travel. We need to be cognisant of that issue. of the Bill and Second Reading, we have felt that we needed some mechanism for examining the case for Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Further to the point appeals. that was made by the hon. Member for North Down I have detained the House for far too long, but I wish (Lady Hermon), if a passport that was issued by a state to say two final things. First, amendment 29 is simply other than the UK was seized, does my right hon. about a date of review and would not detract from the Friend envisage that that state would seek to join the Bill in any way, shape or form. It would simply provide appeal against the seizure? Does he believe that Ministers a date by which the Secretary of State would have to have fully taken account of the diplomatic implications examine clause 1 and decide either to continue it or of that? bring forward new legislation. One reason why we need that review is that there is no appeal mechanism, which Mr Hanson: Again, that demonstrates why the issue amendment 17 would provide. of appeals is important. Paragraph 1(7) of schedule 1 Secondly, I will listen to what the hon. Member for refers to Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) has to say about her new clause 8. I have some concerns about her “a passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom”. proposal for police bail for terrorism suspects. We need to think carefully before using police bail if a Government I can envisage a situation in which an individual who is have decided to remove someone’s passport. I do not the citizen of and holds the passport of not, dare I say wish to comment further on the new clause at this it, the Irish Republic, but another country in the European point, but I will listen to her remarks. Union or even a country outside the European Union, but who is resident in or travelling from the UK, is suspected I hope that the Committee will consider my points for a range of reasons of involvement in terrorism-related about the Opposition’s amendments, and I hope for a activity under paragraph 1(10) of schedule 1. Again, positive response from the Minister. the UK would be in the difficult situation of depriving an individual from another country of their passport Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I would on the basis of a range of suspicions that may or may indeed like to say a few words about new clause 8, which not prove to be factual. I am in danger of repeating I tabled. As we know, there will be situations in which it myself and am being careful not to do so, but we need is necessary to prevent a person from leaving the country, to examine such facts carefully.The purpose of amendment but I would argue that the police already have a tried 17 is to stimulate a debate about that. and tested way of preventing suspects from doing so—the power of arrest, combined with the ability to require passport surrender if a suspect is arrested and released Julian Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman give without charge. However, passport surrender is not way? currently possible in the case of those arrested on suspicion of being a terrorist under section 41 of the Mr Hanson: I am trying to wind up my remarks, but I Terrorism Act 2000, as conditional police bail cannot will give way. be granted following such arrests. That anomaly means that there is a currently a loophole in the ability of law Julian Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify enforcement to require passport surrender of terrorism what is his mechanism for appeal? Surely the measure suspects. It would be much simpler to remove that allows border control officers to take a passport without loophole than to proceed with the convoluted passport giving too many reasons and, after two weeks, for a retention scheme set out in clause 1 and schedule 1. judicial review to take place. How would his appeal The safest and fairest way to prevent suspects from process work? How would we avoid giving away intelligence leaving the country to participate in terrorist activity would during the appeal that could jeopardise the United be for police officers to use their powers of arrest. If an Kingdom’s security? individual was considered to pose an immediate risk to 1183 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1184 the country, they could be detained rather than left to It appears odd to legislate for a new stop-and-search-type roam the UK for 30 days, as would happen under the power when the problems that such an approach causes Government’s proposal. If they did not pose an immediate have been clearly identified and when it is contrary to risk, they could be detained and bailed, and their passport the Home Secretary’s policy on stop-and-search away could be surrendered as part of the process. from the borders. Including that provision in the Bill and removing the I do not think that my suggestions in new clause 8 bar on police bail would be much simpler and fairer would reduce our ability to ensure that we are secure. than a convoluted passport surrender scheme. It would On the contrary, they would make us better able to deliver the same practical result as the Government know where people are, and crucially, they would mean seemingly wish to achieve—preventing individuals from that we would not use so-called stop-and-seizure powers, leaving the country—but would do so in a way that, which have been discredited and are not very effective. crucially, protected against misuse and discrimination. My new clause is intended to give the police the powers they need, and to enable them to exercise them The Minister for Security and Immigration (James consistent with upholding suspects’ human rights. That Brokenshire): I am grateful to the right hon. Member would act as a greater deterrent, by allowing for arrest for Delyn (Mr Hanson) for the opportunity to debate a rather than summary passport seizure, and would help number of provisions relating to part 1 of the Bill, to overcome some of the in-built discrimination that particularly the power of passport seizure and, most exists in relation to stop-and-search and would inevitably relevantly, schedule 1. be part of a stop-and-seizure approach to passports. The right hon. Gentleman highlighted some of the Mark Field: I do not wish to cast judgment on the real-life events that are taking place elsewhere. We will two proposed processes, but does the hon. Lady not all have been shocked to see the pictures on the television recognise that the arrest and bail process would probably screens during the past few hours. The incident in involve a higher threshold than mere passport seizure? Sydney is profoundly shocking, and it is deeply distressing Considerably fewer people would therefore be subject to hear of the fatalities that have arisen from the hostage to it, so it might not make the rest of us much safer. The situation. The facts are still emerging, but our thoughts Government’s intention in using passport seizure is to are with the families of those caught up in the tragic stop those who wish to escape these shores—they will events. We all stand with the Australian Government not necessarily be guilty of any offence before doing so. and the people of Australia in utterly condemning anyone who would seek to use violence to advance Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman, but I do political ends. The incident reminds us again that we not think his point stands up. Under new clause 8, an must all be vigilant. individual considered to pose an immediate risk to the country could be detained rather than being left to the I will turn shortly to the new clauses and amendments, roam the UK, as would happen under the Government’s including amendment 13, which is in the name of my proposal. If they were not considered to pose an immediate right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. In the light of risk, they could be bailed and their passport seized. the debate, however, I think it will be helpful if I make Seizing a passport as part of the bail process would be some general points about the power of temporary more effective than what I believe he proposes. passport seizure and its importance. The increasing number of people travelling to engage Mark Field: The problem is not that there would be a in terrorism-related activities overseas, and returning to risk of people roaming through the UK and being a the UK with enhanced terrorist-related capabilities, means direct and immediate risk to other UK citizens. It is that that we need an additional power to disrupt an individual’s they might leave these shores to carry out terrorist ability to travel at short notice. The Government are activity abroad. clear: we will provide the police with the powers they Caroline Lucas: I do not see that as being more of a need to stop people travelling to fight for terrorist risk under my new clause, the advantage of which organisations overseas. Clause 1 makes provision for would be that we would not be involved in a so-called schedule 1 to the Bill, which provides for the stop-and-seizure approach, which we know is often not “seizure and temporary retention of travel documents” effective. Summary stop powers do not yield effective at port by the police. Under the schedule the police—and results—Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has designated Border Force officers at the discretion of the found that in most years since 2001, more than 1 million police—can seize and retain a travel document when people have been stopped and searched, but only 9% they have reasonable grounds to suspect that a person at were subsequently arrested. If the summary sanction a port in Great Britain intends to leave to engage in were the removal of a passport, that failure rate would terrorism-related activity outside the UK. That power be too high. In addition to risking injustice for the can also be exercised at a port in the border area in individuals concerned, such an approach would serve to Northern Ireland. perpetuate a climate of fear and suspicion rather than encourage good relations between different communities Right hon. and hon. Members have highlighted different in British society. measures, and existing powers have different tests and The Home Secretary herself recently recognised the focus on different things. The new measure is significant prejudicial nature of stop-and-search powers and sought because it will give the police, or Border Force officers to scale them back. She stated: directed by the police, power to seize travel documents, “Nobody wins when stop and search is misused. It can be an including passports and travel tickets, at a port to enormous waste of police time and damage the relationship disrupt immediate travel—I underline that point—based between the public and police.” on “reasonable suspicion” that an individual is travelling 1185 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1186

[James Brokenshire] 7.15 pm for terrorist-related activity. The passport is not cancelled James Brokenshire: Ultimately, those facts will concern and the document can be held for up to 14 days or, as any challenge that may be made, and a review may be we have heard, 30 days if the retention period is extended undertaken of the proper exercise of the power and by a court. oversight provided for in the Bill. The right hon. Member for Delyn commented on the nature of the protections in the Bill. I hope that will assure the hon. Member for Lady Hermon: This important Bill does not just Foyle (Mark Durkan) about the way such things would apply to international terrorism, it applies to terrorism, be advanced and protected, and that oversight is provided and we in Northern Ireland have been afflicted for years to deal with the issues he has raised. by terrorism waged by dissident republicans. Will the Minister confirm whether he has been to and driven Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Will the along the border between the United Kingdom and the person whose passport or travel documents are removed Republic of Ireland? How many border posts and Border be informed of the reason they have been taken away? Force officials did he meet on that trip? The maximum time the passport can be held without going through a legal process is two weeks. When does James Brokenshire: I had the pleasure of visiting the Minister envisage that there will be a review of that Belfast on a number of occasions when I was security decision, and when can the person reasonably expect to Minister, but I have not travelled along the direct route get their documents back and be allowed to travel? The that the hon. Lady highlights. The important point is points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for that the power clearly applies to people who are seeking Delyn (Mr Hanson) were clear—the issue is one of to leave the United Kingdom to engage in terrorist-related access to a judicial process, rather than an executive activity outside the UK. We are arguing for such a decision, which is effectively what the removal of the power because of the effective way that it can disrupt documents would be. terrorist-related activity. James Brokenshire: The hon. Gentleman leads me neatly to mention a number of protections in the Bill, Lady Hermon: I am sincerely grateful to the Minister and say how we will ensure that the exercise of this for giving way because this is a really important point. power is proportionate and suitably circumscribed by a We have a very open border between Northern Ireland range of stringent safeguards. Some of the points about and the Republic of Ireland, and we are the only part of the need for speed and assurances about the exercise of the United Kingdom that shares a frontier with another such powers have been well made. A powerful power is EU member state. There is no border built; there is no being advanced in schedule 1, and those who exercise it wire or wall, and it is full of little lanes and easy access must be satisfied that it is necessary to retain the relevant to the United Kingdom. I am extremely anxious to documentation. The different mechanisms available to ensure that Northern Ireland does not become the soft challenge a decision underscore why we regard current underbelly of the rest of the United Kingdom for those protections as proportionate to this power. who would wish us ill or want violence in this country. Will the Minister consider increasing the number of In essence, officers who might exercise the power Border Force officials along the porous border between would be governed by a specific code of practice that Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? would specify how they are to use it. Paragraph 2 of schedule 1 states that the constable must have James Brokenshire: I understand the hon. Lady’s “reasonable grounds to suspect that the person is there—” sincerity and the manner with which she has advanced in the port— her point, and we must be vigilant about risks and “with the intention of leaving the United Kingdom for the threats that may be posed to the United Kingdom, purpose of involvement in terrorism-related activity”. whether in Northern Ireland or any other part of the The officer then has to seek a further review by a senior UK. There is good work between the Police Service of police office of at least superintendent level to confirm Northern Ireland and the Garda Siochana, and the that the power is appropriate in that case. There is a United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland have a further review by an officer of chief superintendent clear joint interest in ensuring border security. Indeed, rank within 72 hours of the officer’s findings, and that is we very much consider the common travel area to be an referred to the chief constable who must remain satisfied external border, which is why we work closely with the with the case. Even from an administrative perspective Republic of Ireland to ensure that it remains effective there are a significant number of checks and balances and in no way goes down the path mentioned by the to ensure that the power is being exercised effectively. If hon. Lady. The Government must maintain that sense the documents are to be retained beyond the 14-day of vigilance and focus. period, there is a court process and a review to consider how further oversight should be provided. Mark Durkan: I represent a border constituency and we do not particularly want the border demarcated further Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): in ways that applied historically. Schedule 1 defines the I completely understand why the Government have decided border area as one mile from the border with the that within the 14-day period there should be no appeal Republic of Ireland. Is that as the crow flies, or when or review, but I cannot understand why paragraph 8 of travelling? If there is a dispute about where the person schedule 1 prohibits or prevents the judge from considering was stopped and had their passport seized, how will the whether there is a basis for the order or retention in the question of where the seizure took place be resolved? first place. All the judge can do is ensure that those who 1187 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1188 are considering the matter are doing so diligently. He is the temporary passport seizure power and the temporary not able to look at the foundation and basis for the exclusion order power, subject to the statutory means entire retention—at whether there are reasonable grounds and merits tests. for suspicion. Returning to the provisions, a code of practice will provide clear guidance on how police and Border Force James Brokenshire: My hon. and learned Friend officers will exercise the powers. The Government will highlights the mechanisms provided in paragraph 5 of carefully review all responses received to the consultation schedule 1 on the manner in which the judge must be that we propose to undertake in respect of the code, to satisfied with the continued need to retain the ensure it contains effective guidance and provides clarity documentation. His point is the basis or central tenet to officers on how the new powers should operate. The for the use of the power in the first place. Indeed, I power is a proportionate and prudent response to the think this relates to the point advanced by the right hon. threat we face. It will allow the police to disrupt travel at Member for Delyn in one of his amendments. Judicial short notice when there is reasonable suspicion that review is available to challenge the basis of the original someone is travelling for terrorism-related purposes. decision. Therefore, there is a judicial right to question Let me now turn to the amendments before us. I shall and challenge the basis on which the officer has used deal first with those from the Opposition. Amendment 17 the power in the first place, as set out in paragraph 2 of seeks to provide a process for individuals to appeal to schedule 1. We therefore believe there is a direct means the courts against the decision to remove their travel to be able to challenge the underlying decision. documents at port. As I have described, the Bill already provides a specific court procedure. In addition, the John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The individual can decide, at any time, to seek a judicial Minister refers to a point raised by my right hon. Friend review of the initial passport seizure in the High Court, the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). Judicial review is where closed material proceedings may be available to an extremely difficult and expensive route to secure allow consideration of any sensitive material. I do not justice. The point about magistrates, as the hon. and believe, therefore, that the amendment adds a significant learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) additional safeguard to the use of this power. says, is the diligent and expeditious use of an administrative Amendment 29 seeks to introduce a sunset clause to power. Where there are grounds for a simpler right to the temporary passport provisions. Doing so may send appeal relates to a point made by the hon. Member for an inadvertent message to would-be jihadist travellers Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), which is where of our lack of intent to deal with the threat they pose if someone has suffered repeated instances of having their they believed that the powers would end in two years’ documents taken off them. On that basis, a swift appeal time. Terrorism-related travel is a serious and ongoing system would at least give some confidence that it was issue. Our law enforcement agencies need to have a range not being used indiscriminately. of tools at their disposal to deal with it in a necessary and proportionate way. I wish we could be confident that the conflicts that attract these individuals will be James Brokenshire: For the relevant document to resolved in two years, but it would be imprudent to plan need to be retained, the provisions in paragraph 5 of on that basis. schedule 1 must remain outstanding: there must be consideration of whether the Secretary of State would use the royal prerogative, whether there are charges to Mr Hanson: If that is the case, why does clause 17 be brought against that person, or whether there are have a repeal date of 31 December 2016? other measures that may be relevant. The requirement still needs to be satisfied, which is why we have brought James Brokenshire: I am glad the right hon. Gentleman in the 14-day provision to ensure direct oversight and raises that point. The parallel I think he seeks to draw is checks and balances through the mechanisms in the not relevant in this context. As he well knows, the Data schedule. Retention and Investigatory Powers Act 2014, to which On cost, following further discussions with the Home this provision relates, contains a sunset clause because Office and the Ministry of Justice, it may be helpful to of the need to have further and wider debate on clarify and expand on the evidence I gave to the Joint communications data. What we are talking about here Committee on Human Rights on 3 December, on the is a specific and focused power to deal with the immediate availability of legal aid for those subject to the proposed operational needs of our police and law enforcement temporary passport seizure powers and to provide clarity agencies at the border to disrupt terrorist travel. Therefore, on the potential scope of legal aid in this context. I have the parallels he seeks to adduce between the two clauses written to the Chair of the Joint Committee today on do not actually stack up. this issue. Legal aid would potentially be available for the Lady Hermon: The Minister referred to sending out a magistrates court proceedings provided for in the Bill, very clear signal to jihadists who wish us ill in this but at present that would be a discretionary decision for country. I agree entirely and I am sure the Committee the director of legal aid casework. The Government are agrees too. May I invite the Minister to confirm that the considering whether it would be proportionate to bring Bill will also apply to dissident republicans who sit in those proceedings within the scope of the general legal the Republic of Ireland and wish to bomb and murder aid scheme to put individuals’ access to legal aid, subject prison officers and other members of the security forces to the statutory means and merits tests, beyond doubt. within the United Kingdom, particularly in Northern Legal aid is available under the general civil legal aid Ireland, so that the message is as loud and clear to scheme for judicial review challenges by those subject to dissident republicans as it is to jihadists? 1189 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1190

James Brokenshire: Terrorism can take all sorts of in paragraph 19 different forms. The Bill is rightly not specific on what “to publish a draft of the code…to consider representations, to terrorist-related activity outside of the UK may be make any appropriate modifications” relevant, so I think the power is appropriately drafted. in the light of those representations The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) raised a “and to lay the draft before Parliament by doing so before the Bill point about the one-mile limit and I am conscious that I receives Royal Assent.” have not addressed it. The Northern Ireland border Without the amendment, it could be argued that such area is defined in the same terms as in other legislation, things would only be valid if done after the Bill becomes such as schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000. The an Act. The amendment removes any doubt about that. Northern Ireland border is one mile from the Republic With the assurances I have given, I hope that the right of Ireland as the crow flies. I hope that provides certainty. hon. Member for Delyn and the hon. Member for Let me now turn to the amendments tabled by the Brighton, Pavilion will be minded not to press their hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). amendments. As she has explained, they would remove the temporary Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the Minister for his passport seizure provision in its entirety. She also flagged explanations and for reminding me that I have form on up a point relating to the availability of police bail. I am police bail as a Minister in the last Government. He will sure the hon. Lady takes public safety extremely seriously, be pleased to know that although I gave the hon. Member particularly in the current climate where we are facing for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) the opportunity the biggest challenge to our security since the horrific to make her case, we do not support it, having listened attacks of 9/11. The nature of terrorism-related arrests to it. We might have form on this issue, but that form is inherently means that the exact risk to the public from consistent with our approach to the matter. an individual, or their suspected involvement in a terrorist plot, may not be well understood at the early stages of Our amendment 29, on a sunset clause, and amendment an investigation. That is part of the reason why the 17, on the right of appeal, still bear merit. The Minister police also have the power, 48 hours after the arrest of a has not convinced me that a sunset clause would be terrorist suspect, to apply to the courts for a warrant of damaging in the long term to the Bill. Neither, given the further detention to extend the initial detention up to a concerns of Members such as the right hon. and learned maximum of 14 days, subject to the seven-day review. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) and others about To grant bail as the hon. Lady would want to, and at the appeals, am I persuaded not to press amendment 17. stage she would want to when significant parts of an Julian Smith: I urge the right hon. Gentleman to investigation are still ongoing, would increase the risk think carefully about pressing his amendment. What of potentially dangerous individuals being released before sort of message will it send to terrorists and people who they have been sufficiently investigated. That is a risk threaten our country if he goes down this wishy-washy the Government are not prepared to take. path of supporting the Bill but saying we should review In preparing for this debate, I noted that when the it in 18 months’ time? right hon. Member for Delyn was a Minister back in 2009 he made exactly the self-same point. There are Mr Hanson: Having been counter-terrorism and policing certain issues we disagree on, but his statements on the Minister in the last Government, I know the extent of record underline the issues relating to the use of police the threats we face, perhaps even more so than the hon. bail and other relevant factors. We continue to judge, Gentleman, and I do not think that anybody has ever responding to David Anderson on this very point, that accused me of being wishy-washy on these matters—in the granting of bail is not appropriate. fact, I have often been accused of being a little too harsh. However, it is right and proper, when we give powers to remove passports from individuals, that the Caroline Lucas: Plenty of experts who agree that our House of Commons at least commits to reviewing those security is the ultimate goal also see that my amendment powers in two years—possibly to see whether we need is more robust than the Government’s proposal. With to make them stronger; it might not mean we want to bail, one can attach a wide range of conditions, including make them weaker. If he had his passport taken off him curfews, restrictions and so on, and it is simply an at Heathrow or Dover on spurious grounds, he would anomaly for our security forces not to have this tool in wish to have an appeal process in place. It is one of the their toolbox should they need it for terrorism. basic tenets of this House of Commons. So, not being wishy-washy, but being committed to 7.30 pm tackling terrorism at its core and taking firm and effective action to reduce the threat to this country, I still believe James Brokenshire: The hon. Lady has made that we need to review the Bill in two years’ time and give point several times, and she has been consistent in people the right to argue their case, should they so wish, advancing her case, but there is a balance of risk, and and question the grounds on which their passport has we judge that bail in these circumstances would not be been taken from them. On that basis, I would like to appropriate because of our fundamental focus on protecting press amendment 29 to a vote. national security.Furthermore, the Bill provides appropriate safeguards in several different ways to ensure that it is Question put, That the amendment be made. proportionate and meets the issues of necessity. The Committee divided: Ayes 220, Noes 301. Finally, the Government are making a technical Division No. 115] [7.34 pm amendment in relation to the code of practice. AYES Amendment 13 would Abbott, Ms Diane Alexander, rh Mr Douglas “make it clear that the Secretary of State can comply with the obligations” Abrahams, Debbie Alexander, Heidi 1191 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1192

Ali, Rushanara Fovargue, Yvonne McKechin, Ann Sawford, Andy Allen, Mr Graham Francis, Dr Hywel McKenzie, Mr Iain Seabeck, Alison Anderson, Mr David Gapes, Mike Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sharma, Mr Virendra Ashworth, Jonathan Glass, Pat Meale, Sir Alan Sheerman, Mr Barry Austin, Ian Glindon, Mrs Mary Mearns, Ian Sheridan, Jim Bailey, Mr Adrian Godsiff, Mr Roger Miller, Andrew Shuker, Gavin Bain, Mr William Goodman, Helen Moon, Mrs Madeleine Skinner, Mr Dennis Balls, rh Ed Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica Smith, Nick Banks, Gordon Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, Owen Bayley, Hugh Greenwood, Lilian Morris, Grahame M. Straw, rh Mr Jack Beckett, rh Margaret Griffith, Nia (Easington) Stringer, Graham Begg, Dame Anne Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Stuart, Ms Gisela Benn, rh Hilary Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Berger, Luciana Hamilton, Mr David Murray, Ian Tami, Mark Betts, Mr Clive Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Thomas, Mr Gareth Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hanson, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela Thornberry, Emily Blears, rh Hazel Harman, rh Ms Harriet O’Donnell, Fiona Trickett, Jon Blenkinsop, Tom Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi Blomfield, Paul Havard, Mr Dai Osborne, Sandra Turner, Karl Blunkett, rh Mr David Hermon, Lady Owen, Albert Twigg, Derek Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Heyes, David Perkins, Toby Twigg, Stephen Brennan, Kevin Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Umunna, Mr Chuka Brown, Lyn Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen Vaz, Valerie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hodge, rh Margaret Powell, Lucy Walley, Joan Brown, Mr Russell Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Watson, Mr Tom Bryant, Chris Hoey, Kate Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Watts, Mr Dave Buck, Ms Karen Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Jamie Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Burden, Richard Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Steve Whitehead, Dr Alan Burnham, rh Andy Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Emma Williams, Hywel Campbell, rh Mr Alan Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Winnick, Mr David Caton, Martin Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, Angus Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Champion, Sarah Jackson, Glenda Robertson, John Wood, Mike Chapman, Jenny James, Mrs Siân C. Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Woodcock, John Clark, Katy Jamieson, Cathy Rotheram, Steve Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Clwyd, rh Ann Jarvis, Dan Roy, Mr Frank Wright, David Coffey, Ann Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Lindsay Cooper, Rosie Johnson, Diana Ruane, Chris Tellers for the Ayes: Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Phil Wilson and Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Nic Dakin Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr Kevan Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan NOES Cunningham, Alex Kane, Mike Adams, Nigel Brokenshire, James Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Afriyie, Adam Brooke, rh Annette Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Aldous, Peter Browne, Mr Jeremy David, Wayne Kendall, Liz Andrew, Stuart Bruce, Fiona Davidson, Mr Ian Lammy, rh Mr David Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Bacon, Mr Richard Buckland, Mr Robert Dobson, rh Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Baker, rh Norman Burley, Mr Aidan Docherty, Thomas Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Baker, Steve Burns, Conor Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Baldry, rh Sir Tony Burns, rh Mr Simon Doran, Mr Frank Long, Naomi Baldwin, Harriett Burrowes, Mr David Doughty, Stephen Love, Mr Andrew Barclay, Stephen Burstow, rh Paul Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline Barker, rh Gregory Byles, Dan Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Ian Bebb, Guto Cairns, Alun Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona Beith, rh Sir Alan Carmichael, Neil Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Mr Khalid Bellingham, Mr Henry Carswell, Douglas Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana Benyon, Richard Cash, Sir William Eagle, Maria Malhotra, Seema Beresford, Sir Paul Chishti, Rehman Edwards, Jonathan Mann, John Berry, Jake Clappison, Mr James Efford, Clive Marsden, Mr Gordon Bingham, Andrew Clark, rh Greg Elliott, Julie McCabe, Steve Blackwood, Nicola Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Ellman, Mrs Louise McCann, Mr Michael Blunt, Crispin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Engel, Natascha McCarthy, Kerry Bone, Mr Peter Collins, Damian Esterson, Bill McClymont, Gregg Bottomley, Sir Peter Colvile, Oliver Evans, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain Bradley, Karen Cox, Mr Geoffrey Field, rh Mr Frank McDonald, Andy Brady, Mr Graham Crabb, rh Stephen Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, John Bray, Angie Crockart, Mike Flello, Robert McFadden, rh Mr Pat Brazier, Mr Julian Crouch, Tracey Flint, rh Caroline McGovern, Jim Bridgen, Andrew Davies, David T. C. Flynn, Paul McInnes, Liz Brine, Steve (Monmouth) 1193 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1194

Davies, Glyn Hollingbery, George Nokes, Caroline Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Davies, Philip Hollobone, Mr Philip Norman, Jesse Spencer, Mr Mark Davis, rh Mr David Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Stanley, rh Sir John de Bois, Nick Howell, John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, rh Simon Offord, Dr Matthew Stevenson, John Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Stewart, Iain Dorries, Nadine Hunter, Mark Opperman, Guy Stewart, Rory Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Stride, Mel Drax, Richard James, Margot Paice, rh Sir James Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Duddridge, James Javid, rh Sajid Paisley, Ian Sturdy, Julian Duncan, rh Sir Alan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Swales, Ian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jenrick, Robert Patel, Priti Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Paterson, rh Mr Owen Swinson, Jo Ellison, Jane Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Swire, rh Mr Hugo Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, rh Mr David Penning, rh Mike Syms, Mr Robert Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Teather, Sarah Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel Percy, Andrew Thornton, Mike Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Thurso, rh John Evennett, Mr David Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Fabricant, Michael Knight, rh Sir Greg Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tomlinson, Justin Fallon, rh Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Pincher, Christopher Turner, Mr Andrew Farron, Tim Lamb, rh Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Uppal, Paul Featherstone, rh Lynne Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Vaizey, Mr Edward Field, Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pugh, John Vara, Mr Shailesh Foster, rh Mr Don Latham, Pauline Randall, rh Sir John Vickers, Martin Fox,rhDrLiam Laws, rh Mr David Reckless, Mark Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Francois, rh Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Redwood, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Charles Freeman, George Lee, Jessica Rees-Mogg, Jacob Walker, Mr Robin Freer, Mike Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Wallace, Mr Ben Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Sir Edward Reid, Mr Alan Ward, Mr David Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Gale, Sir Roger Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Watkinson, Dame Angela Garnier, Sir Edward Lewis, Brandon Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Webb, rh Steve Garnier, Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Mr Laurence Wharton, James Gauke, Mr David Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rogerson, Dan Wheeler, Heather Gibb, Mr Nick Lidington, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew White, Chris Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rudd, Amber Whittaker, Craig Glen, John Lloyd, Stephen Ruffley, Mr David Whittingdale, Mr John Goodwill, Mr Robert Lopresti, Jack Russell, Sir Bob Willetts, rh Mr David Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Williams, Mr Mark Graham, Richard Luff, Sir Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Williams, Roger Grant, Mrs Helen Lumley, Karen Sandys, Laura Williams, Stephen Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary Scott, Mr Lee Willott, Jenny Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Green, rh Damian Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Wollaston, Dr Sarah Grieve, rh Mr Dominic May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Wright, Simon Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Griffiths, Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Gummer, Ben Young, rh Sir George McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Gyimah, Mr Sam Zahawi, Nadhim McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Chloe Hague, rh Mr William McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Tellers for the Noes: Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Lorely Burt and Hames, Duncan McVey, rh Esther Soubry, Anna Gavin Barwell Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Hancock, rh Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Question accordingly negatived. Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, rh Maria Hands, rh Greg Mills, Nigel Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Harrington, Richard Mordaunt, Penny Harris, Rebecca Morgan, rh Nicky Schedule 1 Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Harvey, Sir Nick Morris, David SEIZURE OF PASSPORTS ETC FROM PERSONS SUSPECTED Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, James OF INVOLVEMENT IN TERRORISM Hayes, rh Mr John Mosley, Stephen Amendment proposed: 17, page 30, line 14, at end Heald, Sir Oliver Mowat, David insert— Heaton-Harris, Chris Mundell, rh David “(c) the individual subject whose travel document has been removed Hemming, John Munt, Tessa may appeal against this decision in the courts over the evidence Henderson, Gordon Murray, Sheryll on which conditions in paragraph 2(1)(a) and (b) of this schedule Hendry, Charles Murrison, Dr Andrew were met.”—(Mr Hanson.) Herbert, rh Nick Neill, Robert Question put, That the amendment be made. Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Hoban, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah The Committee divided: Ayes 222, Noes 301. 1195 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1196

Division No. 116] [7.46 pm McCann, Mr Michael Roy, Mr Frank McCarthy, Kerry Roy, Lindsay AYES McClymont, Gregg Ruane, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Abbott, Ms Diane Evans, Chris McDonald, Andy Sarwar, Anas Abrahams, Debbie Field, rh Mr Frank McDonnell, John Sawford, Andy Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Fitzpatrick, Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat Seabeck, Alison Alexander, Heidi Flello, Robert McGovern, Jim Sharma, Mr Virendra Ali, Rushanara Flint, rh Caroline McInnes, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Allen, Mr Graham Flynn, Paul McKechin, Ann Sheridan, Jim Anderson, Mr David Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain Shuker, Gavin Ashworth, Jonathan Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Skinner, Mr Dennis Austin, Ian Gapes, Mike Meale, Sir Alan Smith, Nick Bailey, Mr Adrian Glass, Pat Mearns, Ian Bain, Mr William Glindon, Mrs Mary Smith, Owen Miller, Andrew Balls, rh Ed Godsiff, Mr Roger Straw, rh Mr Jack Moon, Mrs Madeleine Banks, Gordon Goodman, Helen Stringer, Graham Morden, Jessica Bayley, Hugh Greatrex, Tom Stuart, Ms Gisela Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Beckett, rh Margaret Green, Kate Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Morris, Grahame M. Begg, Dame Anne Greenwood, Lilian Tami, Mark (Easington) Benn, rh Hilary Griffith, Nia Thomas, Mr Gareth Munn, Meg Berger, Luciana Gwynne, Andrew Thornberry, Emily Murphy, rh Paul Betts, Mr Clive Hain, rh Mr Peter Trickett, Jon Murray, Ian Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hamilton, Mr David Nandy, Lisa Turner, Karl Blears, rh Hazel Hamilton, Fabian Nash, Pamela Twigg, Derek Blenkinsop, Tom Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Twigg, Stephen Blomfield, Paul Harman, rh Ms Harriet Onwurah, Chi Umunna, Mr Chuka Blunkett, rh Mr David Harris, Mr Tom Osborne, Sandra Vaz, Valerie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Havard, Mr Dai Owen, Albert Walley, Joan Brennan, Kevin Hepburn, Mr Stephen Paisley, Ian Watson, Mr Tom Brown, Lyn Hermon, Lady Perkins, Toby Watts, Mr Dave Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Heyes, David Phillipson, Bridget Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Brown, Mr Russell Hillier, Meg Pound, Stephen Whitehead, Dr Alan Bryant, Chris Hilling, Julie Powell, Lucy Williams, Hywel Buck, Ms Karen Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Burden, Richard Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Williamson, Chris Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Burnham, rh Andy Hoey, Kate Winnick, Mr David Reed, Mr Jamie Campbell, rh Mr Alan Hood, Mr Jim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Reed, Mr Steve Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hopkins, Kelvin Wood, Mike Reynolds, Emma Caton, Martin Hosie, Stewart Woodcock, John Reynolds, Jonathan Champion, Sarah Howarth, rh Mr George Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Riordan, Mrs Linda Chapman, Jenny Hunt, Tristram Wright, David Robertson, Angus Clark, Katy Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John Tellers for the Ayes: Clwyd, rh Ann Jackson, Glenda Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Phil Wilson and Coffey, Ann James, Mrs Siân C. Rotheram, Steve Nic Dakin Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Cooper, rh Yvette Jarvis, Dan Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan NOES Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Adams, Nigel Brady, Mr Graham Cryer, John Jones, Graham Afriyie, Adam Bray, Angie Cunningham, Alex Jones, Helen Aldous, Peter Brazier, Mr Julian Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Mr Kevan Andrew, Stuart Bridgen, Andrew Danczuk, Simon Jones, Susan Elan Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brine, Steve David, Wayne Kane, Mike Bacon, Mr Richard Brokenshire, James Davidson, Mr Ian Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Baker, rh Norman Brooke, rh Annette Davies, Geraint Keeley, Barbara Baker, Steve Browne, Mr Jeremy Dobson, rh Frank Kendall, Liz Baldry, rh Sir Tony Bruce, Fiona Docherty, Thomas Lammy, rh Mr David Baldwin, Harriett Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lavery, Ian Barclay, Stephen Buckland, Mr Robert Doran, Mr Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Barker, rh Gregory Burley, Mr Aidan Doughty, Stephen Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Bebb, Guto Burns, Conor Dowd, Jim Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Beith, rh Sir Alan Burns, rh Mr Simon Doyle, Gemma Long, Naomi Bellingham, Mr Henry Burrowes, Mr David Dromey, Jack Love, Mr Andrew Dugher, Michael Lucas, Caroline Benyon, Richard Burstow, rh Paul Durkan, Mark Lucas, Ian Beresford, Sir Paul Byles, Dan Eagle, Maria Mactaggart, Fiona Berry, Jake Cairns, Alun Edwards, Jonathan Mahmood, Mr Khalid Bingham, Andrew Carmichael, Neil Efford, Clive Mahmood, Shabana Blackwood, Nicola Carswell, Douglas Elliott, Julie Malhotra, Seema Blunt, Crispin Cash, Sir William Ellman, Mrs Louise Mann, John Bone, Mr Peter Chishti, Rehman Engel, Natascha Marsden, Mr Gordon Bottomley, Sir Peter Clappison, Mr James Esterson, Bill McCabe, Steve Bradley, Karen Clark, rh Greg 1197 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1198

Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hayes, rh Mr John Morris, James Simpson, Mr Keith Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Sir Oliver Mosley, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Smith, Chloe Colvile, Oliver Hemming, John Mundell, rh David Smith, Henry Cox, Mr Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Smith, Julian Crabb, rh Stephen Hendry, Charles Murray, Sheryll Soubry, Anna Crockart, Mike Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Spencer, Mr Mark Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Stanley, rh Sir John (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Stephenson, Andrew Davies, Glyn Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Stevenson, John Davies, Philip Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Stewart, Iain Davis, rh Mr David Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Stewart, Rory de Bois, Nick Hughes, rh Simon O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Stride, Mel Dinenage, Caroline Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Offord, Dr Matthew Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Sturdy, Julian Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Opperman, Guy Swales, Ian Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Drax, Richard Javid, rh Sajid Paice, rh Sir James Swinson, Jo Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Swire, rh Mr Hugo Duncan, rh Sir Alan Jenrick, Robert Patel, Priti Syms, Mr Robert Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Paterson, rh Mr Owen Teather, Sarah Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Thornton, Mike Ellison, Jane Jones, rh Mr David Penning, rh Mike Thurso, rh John Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Timpson, Mr Edward Elphicke, Charlie Kawczynski, Daniel Percy, Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Turner, Mr Andrew Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Uppal, Paul Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Sir Greg Pickles, rh Mr Eric Vaizey, Mr Edward Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Pincher, Christopher Vara, Mr Shailesh Fallon, rh Michael Lamb, rh Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Vickers, Martin Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Featherstone, rh Lynne Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pugh, John Walker, Mr Charles Field, Mark Latham, Pauline Randall, rh Sir John Walker, Mr Robin Foster, rh Mr Don Laws, rh Mr David Reckless, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Fox,rhDrLiam Leadsom, Andrea Redwood, rh Mr John Ward, Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Rees-Mogg, Jacob Watkinson, Dame Angela Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Webb, rh Steve Freer, Mike Leigh, Sir Edward Reid, Mr Alan Wharton, James Fullbrook, Lorraine Leslie, Charlotte Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wheeler, Heather Fuller, Richard Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robathan, rh Mr Andrew White, Chris Gale, Sir Roger Lewis, Brandon Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Whittaker, Craig Garnier, Sir Edward Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Mr Laurence Whittingdale, Mr John Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rogerson, Dan Willetts, rh Mr David Gauke, Mr David Lidington, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Gibb, Mr Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rudd, Amber Williams, Roger Gilbert, Stephen Lloyd, Stephen Ruffley, Mr David Williams, Stephen Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Russell, Sir Bob Willott, Jenny Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Wilson, Mr Rob Gove, rh Michael Luff, Sir Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Wollaston, Dr Sarah Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Sandys, Laura Wright, Simon Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Scott, Mr Lee Yeo, Mr Tim Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Grayling, rh Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Shapps, rh Grant Green, rh Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Sharma, Alok Tellers for the Noes: Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Lorely Burt and Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Jason Simmonds, Mark Gavin Barwell Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Question accordingly negatived. Hague, rh Mr William McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Amendment made: 13, page 36, line 13, at and insert— Hames, Duncan McVey, rh Esther Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark ‘( ) Anything done before the day on which this Act is passed is Hancock, rh Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen as valid as if done on or after that day for the purposes of Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, rh Maria sub-paragraphs (1) and (2).” —(James Brokenshire.) Hands, rh Greg Mills, Nigel Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne This would make it clear that the Secretary of State can comply Harrington, Richard Moore, rh Michael with the obligations to publish a draft of the code of practice under Harris, Rebecca Mordaunt, Penny Schedule 1, to consider representations, to make any appropriate modifications and to lay the draft before Parliament by doing so Hart, Simon Morgan, rh Nicky before the Bill receives Royal Assent. Harvey, Sir Nick Morris, Anne Marie Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, David Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to. 1199 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1200

Clause 2 (6) If a notification and managed return order is revoked, it ceases to be in force when notice of its revocation is given to the specified individual and the carrier. TEMPORARY EXCLUSION ORDERS (7) The validity of a notification and managed return order is Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the not affected by the specified individual— Bill. (a) returning to the United Kingdom, or (b) departing from the United Kingdom. The Temporary Chair (Mr Gary Streeter): With this it (8) The imposition of a notification and managed return order will be convenient to consider the following: does not prevent a further notification and managed return order Clauses 3 to 10 stand part. from being imposed on a carrier in relation to the same specified Amendment 14, in clause 11, page 7, leave out lines 16 individual (including in a case where an order ceases to be in and 17 and insert— force at the expiry of its two year duration). (9) The imposition of a notification and managed return order ““specified individual” means a person named in a does not prevent a further notification and managed return order notification and managed return order and in relation from being imposed on another carrier contemporaneously or to whom Conditions A-D of section [Notification consecutively in relation to the same specified individual.” and managed return orders] are met. New clause 6—Penalty for breach of notification and “a carrier” has the same meaning as at section 18.” managed return order— Amendment 15, in clause 11, page 7, leave out lines 20 ‘(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations setting out to 24. the penalties to be imposed for breaching a notification and Amendment 16, in clause 11, page 7, leave out line 41. managed return order. Clause 11 stand part. (2) Regulations under subsection (1) must make provision— New clause 4— Notification and managed return orders— (a) about how a penalty is to be calculated; (b) about the procedure for imposing a penalty; ‘(1) A “notification and managed return order” is an order requiring a person (“a carrier”) to notify the Home Secretary (c) about the enforcement of penalties; that— (d) allowing for an appeal against a decision to impose a penalty; (a) a specified individual intends to travel to the UK, and and the regulations may make different provision for different (b) the date, time and location of the specified person‘s purposes. scheduled arrival. (3) Provision in the regulations about the procedure for (2) The Secretary of State may impose a notification and imposing a penalty must provide for a carrier to be given an managed return order if conditions A to D are met. opportunity to object to a proposed penalty in the circumstances (3) Condition A is that the Secretary of State reasonably set out in the regulations. suspects that the specified individual is, or has been, involved in (4) Any penalty paid by virtue of this section must be paid into terrorism related activity outside the United Kingdom. the Consolidated Fund. (4) Condition B is that the Secretary of State reasonably (5) Regulations under this section are to be made by statutory considers that it is necessary, for purposes connected with instrument; and any such statutory instrument may not be made protecting members of the public in the United Kingdom from a unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before each House risk of terrorism, for a notification and managed return order to of Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House.” be imposed on a carrier in relation to a specified individual. New clause 9—Imposition of terrorism prevention and (5) Condition C is that the Secretary of State reasonably investigation measures— considers that the specified individual is outside the United Kingdom. ‘(1) The Secretary of State may by notice (a “TEO”) impose a “temporary exclusion order” which requires an individual not to (6) Condition D is that the specified individual has the right of return to the United Kingdom on an individual if conditions A abode in the United Kingdom. to E in section [Conditions A to E] are met. (7) During the period that a notification and managed return (2) 1n this Act “temporary exclusion order” means requirements, order is in force, the Secretary of State must keep under review restrictions and other provision which may be made in relation to whether condition B is met.” an individual by virtue of section [Conditions A to E] “prior New clause 5—Notification and managed return orders: permission of the court” and Schedule [“Proceedings relating to supplementary provision— temporary exclusion orders”]. (3) An individual subject to a TEO may not return to the UK ‘(1) The Secretary of State must give notice of the imposition unless— of a notification and managed return order to the specified individual and the carrier. (a) the return is in accordance with a permit to return issued by the Secretary of State before the individual (2) Notice of the imposition of a notification and managed began the return, or return order may include notice that the specified individual may be stopped, questioned and detained on return to the United (b) the return is the result of the individual’s deportation Kingdom. to the United Kingdom.” (3) A notification and managed return order— New clause 10—Conditions A to E— (a) comes into force when notice of its imposition is given; ‘(1) Condition A is that the Secretary of State reasonably and suspects that the individual is, or has been, involved in terrorism-related activity outside the United Kingdom. (b) is in force for the period of two years (unless revoked (2) Condition B is that the Secretary of State reasonably or otherwise brought to an end earlier). considers that it is necessary, for purposes connected with protecting (4) The Secretary of State may revoke a notification and members of the public in the United Kingdom from a risk of managed return order at any time. terrorism, for a temporary exclusion order to be imposed on the (5) The Secretary of State must give notice of the revocation of individual. a notification and managed return order to the specified (3) Condition C is that the Secretary of State reasonably individual and the carrier. considers that the individual is outside the United Kingdom. 1201 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1202

(4) Condition D is that the individual has the right of abode in “rules of court” means rules for regulating the practice the United Kingdom. and procedure to be followed in the court, the (5) Condition E is that— Court of Appeal or the Inner House of the Court of Session. (a) the court gives the Secretary of State permission under section 3, or Rules of court: general provision (b) the Secretary of State reasonably considers that the 2 (1) A person making rules of court relating to TEO urgency of the case requires a temporary exclusion proceedings or appeal proceedings must have regard to the need order to be imposed without obtaining such permission. to secure the following— (6) During the period that a temporary exclusion order is in (a) that the decisions that are the subject of the force, the Secretary of State must keep under review whether proceedings are properly reviewed, and condition B is met.” (b) that disclosures of information are not made where New clause 11—Prior permission of the court— they would be contrary to the public interest. ‘(1) This section applies if the Secretary of State— (2) Rules of court relating to TEO proceedings or appeal proceedings may make provision— (a) makes the relevant decisions in relation to an individual, and (a) about the mode of proof and about evidence in the proceedings; (b) makes an application to the court for permission to impose measures on the individual. (b) enabling or requiring the proceedings to be determined without a hearing; (2) The application must set out a draft of the proposed TEO notice. (c) about legal representation in the proceedings; (3) The function of the court on the application is— (d) enabling the proceedings to take place without full particulars of the reasons for the decisions to which (a) to determine whether the relevant decisions of the the proceedings relate being given to a party to the Secretary of State are obviously flawed, and proceedings (or to any legal representative of that (b) to determine whether to give permission to impose party); measures on the individual and (where applicable) (e) enabling the relevant court to conduct proceedings in whether to exercise the power of direction under the absence of any person, including a party to the subsection (9). proceedings (or any legal representative of that party); (4) The court may consider the application— (f) about the functions of a person appointed as a special (a) in the absence of the individual; advocate (see paragraph 10); (b) without the individual having been notified of the (g) enabling the court to give a party to the proceedings a application; and summary of evidence taken in the party’s absence. (c) without the individual having been given an opportunity (3) In this paragraph— (if the individual was aware of the application) of making any representations to the court. (a) references to a party to the proceedings do not include the Secretary of State; (5) But that does not limit the matters about which rules of court may be made. (b) references to a party’s legal representative do not include a person appointed as a special advocate. (6) In determining the application, the court must apply the principles applicable on an application for judicial review. (4) Nothing in this paragraph is to be read as restricting the power to make rules of court or the matters to be taken into (7) In a case where the court determines that a decision of the account when doing so. Secretary of State that condition A, condition B, or condition C is met is obviously flawed, the court may not give permission Rules of court: disclosure under this section. 3 (1) Rules of court relating to TEO proceedings or appeal (8) In any other case, the court may give permission under this proceedings must secure that the Secretary of State is required to section. disclose— (9) If the court determines that the Secretary of State‘s (a) material on which the Secretary of State relies, decision that condition D is met is obviously flawed, the court (b) material which adversely affects the Secretary of may (in addition to giving permission under subsection (8) give State’s case, and directions to the Secretary of State in relation to the measures to (c) material which supports the case of another party to be imposed on the individual. the proceedings. (10) 1n this section “relevant decisions” means the decisions (2) This paragraph is subject to paragraph 4. that the following conditions are met— (a) condition A; 4 (1) Rules of court relating to TEO proceedings or appeal proceedings must secure— (b) condition B; (a) that the Secretary of State has the opportunity to make (c) condition C; and an application to the relevant court for permission (d) condition D.” not to disclose material otherwise than to the New schedule 1—Proceedings relating to Temporary relevant court and any person appointed as a special Exclusion Orders— advocate; Introductory (b) that such an application is always considered in the absence of every party to the proceedings (and every 1 In this Schedule— party’s legal representative); “appeal proceedings” means proceedings in the Court (c) that the relevant court is required to give permission of Appeal or the Inner House of the Court of for material not to be disclosed if it considers that the Session on an appeal relating to temporary disclosure of the material would be contrary to the exclusion order proceedings; public interest; “the relevant court” means— (d) that, if permission is given by the relevant court not to (a) in relation to TEO proceedings, the court; disclose material, it must consider requiring the Secretary (b) in relation to appeal proceedings, the Court of of State to provide a summary of the material to Appeal or the Inner House of the Court of every party to the proceedings (and every party’s legal Session; representative); 1203 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1204

(e) that the relevant court is required to ensure that such a (2) Before making rules of court under sub-paragraph (1), the summary does not contain material the disclosure of Lord Chancellor must consult— which would be contrary to the public interest. (a) in relation to rules applicable to proceedings in England (2) Rules of court relating to TEO proceedings or appeal and Wales, the Lord Chief Justice of England and proceedings must secure that provision to the effect mentioned in Wales; sub-paragraph (3) applies in cases where the Secretary of State— (b) in relation to rules applicable to proceedings in Northern (a) does not receive the permission of the relevant court to Ireland, the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland. withhold material, but elects not to disclose it, or (3) But the Lord Chancellor is not required to undertake any (b) is required to provide a party to the proceedings with a other consultation before making the rules. summary of material that is withheld, but elects not to provide the summary. (4) A requirement to consult under sub-paragraph (2) may be satisfied by consultation that took place wholly or partly before (3) The relevant court must be authorised— the passing of this Act. (a) if it considers that the material or anything that is required to be summarised might adversely affect the (5) Rules of court made by the Lord Chancellor under Secretary of State‘s case or support the case of a sub-paragraph (1)— party to the proceedings, to direct that the Secretary (a) must be laid before Parliament, and of State— (b) if not approved by a resolution of each House before (i) is not to rely on such points in the Secretary of the end of 40 days beginning with the day on which State‘s case, or they were made, cease to have effect at the end of that (ii) is to make such concessions or take such other steps period. as the court may specify, or (6) In determining that period of 40 days no account is to be (b) in any other case, to ensure that the Secretary of State taken of any time during which Parliament is dissolved or does not rely on the material or (as the case may be) prorogued or during which both Houses are adjourned for more on that which is required to be summarised. than 4 days. (4) In this paragraph— (7) 1f rules cease to have effect in accordance with (a) references to a party to the proceedings do not include sub-paragraph (5)— the Secretary of State; (a) that does not affect anything done in previous reliance (b) references to a party’s legal representative do not on the rules, and include a person appointed as a special advocate. Article 6 rights (b) sub-paragraph (1) applies again as if the rules had not been made. 5 (1) Nothing in paragraphs 2 to 4, or in rules of court made under any of those paragraphs, is to be read as requiring the (8) The following provisions do not apply to rules of court relevant court to act in a manner inconsistent with Article 6 of made by the Lord Chancellor under this paragraph— the Human Rights Convention. (a) section 3(6) of the Civil Procedure Act 1997 (2) The “Human Rights Convention” means the Convention (Parliamentary procedure for civil procedure rules); within the meaning of the Human Rights Act 1998 (see (b) section 56(1), (2) and (4) of the Judicature (Northern section 21(1) of that Act). Ireland) Act 1978 (statutory rules procedure). Rules of court: anonymity (9) Until the coming into force of section 85 of the Courts 6 (1) Rules of court relating to TEO proceedings or appeal Act 2003, the reference in sub-paragraph (8)(a) to section 3(6) of proceedings may make provision for— the Civil Procedure Act 1997 is to be read as a reference to (a) the making by the Secretary of State or the relevant section 3(2) of that Act. individual of an application to the court for an order Use of advisers requiring anonymity for that individual, and 8 (1) In any TEO proceedings or appeal proceedings the (b) the making by the court, on such an application, of an relevant court may if it thinks fit— order requiring such anonymity; (a) call in aid one or more advisers appointed for the and the provision made by the rules may allow the application purposes of this paragraph by the Lord Chancellor, and the order to be made irrespective of whether any other TEO and proceedings have been begun in the court. (b) hear and dispose of the proceedings with the assistance (2) Rules of court may provide for the Court of Appeal or the of the adviser or advisers. Inner House of the Court of Session to make an order in connection with any appeal proceedings requiring anonymity for (2) The Lord Chancellor may appoint advisers for the the relevant individual. purposes of this paragraph only with the approval of— (3) In sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) the references, in relation to a (a) the Lord President of the Court of Session, in relation court, to an order requiring anonymity for the relevant to an adviser who may be called in aid wholly or individual are references to an order by that court which imposes mainly in Scotland; such prohibition or restriction as it thinks fit on the disclosure— (b) the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, in relation (a) by such persons as the court specifies or describes, or to an adviser who may be called in aid wholly or (b) by persons generally, mainly in Northern Ireland; of the identity of the relevant individual or of any information (c) the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, in any that would tend to identify the relevant individual. other case. (4) In this paragraph “relevant individual” means an individual (3) Rules of court may regulate the use of advisers in on whom the Secretary of State is proposing to impose, or has proceedings who are called in aid under sub-paragraph (1). imposed, measures. (4) The Lord Chancellor may pay such remuneration, expenses Initial exercise of rule-making powers by Lord Chancellor and allowances to advisers appointed for the purposes of this paragraph as the Lord Chancellor may determine. 7 (1) The first time after the passing of this Act that rules of court are made in exercise of the powers conferred by this 9 (1) The Lord President of the Court of Session may Schedule in relation to proceedings in England and Wales or in nominate a judge of the Court of Session who is a member of the Northern Ireland, the rules may be made by the Lord Chancellor First or Second Division of the Inner House of that Court to instead of by the person who would otherwise make them. exercise the function under paragraph 8(2)(a). 1205 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1206

(2) The Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland may nominate Let me make it clear that this is a discretionary any of the following to exercise the function under power, which will be considered for use on a case-by-case paragraph 8(2)(b)— basis. Let me also reassure the Committee again that it (a) the holder of one of the offices listed in Schedule 1 to will not render any individual stateless. British nationals the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002; who are made subject to an order will have the right—which (b) a Lord Justice of Appeal (as defined in section 88 of their citizenship guarantees—to return to the UK. Clauses 2 that Act). to 11 relate to this TEO and set out the way it will (3) The Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales may operate and issues around the permits to return. nominate a judicial office holder (as defined in section 109(4) of the Constitutional Reform Act 2005) to exercise the function 8pm under paragraph 8(2)(c). As I have said, this measure will not make anybody Appointment of special advocate stateless, but it will mean that when the people concerned 10 (1) The appropriate law officer may appoint a person to return, they do so on our terms, and that could quite represent the interests of a party in any TEO proceedings or possibly be in the company of a police officer. The appeal proceedings from which the party (and any legal process of managed return will be a valuable addition representative of the party) is excluded. to the suite of powers available to our agencies. (2) A person appointed under sub-paragraph (1) is referred to in this Schedule as appointed as “special advocate”. It may assist the Committee if I set out in more detail how the power will operate. I, as Secretary of State, can (3) The “appropriate law officer” is— impose a TEO if I reasonably suspect that an individual (a) in relation to proceedings in England and Wales, the is, or has been, involved in terrorism-related activity Attorney General; while outside the UK, and I consider that such an order (b) in relation to proceedings in Scotland, the Advocate is an appropriate tool to manage the threat he or she General for Scotland; poses to the UK. Individuals subject to TEOs will have (c) in relation to proceedings in Northern Ireland, the their British passports cancelled. They will be a class of Advocate General for Northern Ireland. passengers for whom authority to carry will have to be (4) A person appointed as a special advocate is not responsible sought by carriers, under a new authority to carry scheme. to the party to the proceedings whose interests the person is The TEO will be imposed for two years, with the appointed to represent. possibility of a new order being imposed following (5) A person may be appointed as a special advocate only if— consideration after this time limit expires, but a person (a) in the case of an appointment by the Attorney General, subject to an order will be allowed to return to the UK the person has a general qualification the purposes of within a reasonable time frame if they make an application section 71 of the Courts and Legal Services Act 1990; to do so or if they are deported by another country. To (b) in the case of an appointment by the Advocate General be clear on this point—because some might get confused for Scotland, the person is an advocate or a solicitor about the two-year time frame in the Bill—that relates who has rights of audience in the Court of Session or to the time the order remains extant and for which the the High Court of Justiciary by virtue of section 25A terms of the order can be brought to bear on the of the Solicitors (Scotland) Act 1980; individual. If the individual remains a threat at the end (c) in the case of an appointment by the Advocate General of that period, clause 2 allows for the imposition of a for Northern Ireland, the person is a member of the further order on the same individual. Bar of Northern Ireland.” As I have said, these individuals will not be rendered stateless. They will not be left unable to return to the The Secretary of State for the Home Department UK for an indefinite period. They must be issued a (Mrs Theresa May): I am very pleased to be able to permit to return within a reasonable period if they participate in this part of the debate on an important apply for one, and attend an interview if required to do Bill, and particularly pleased to be able to talk about so. I should restate, to make this very clear to the temporary exclusion orders. Let me begin by explaining Committee, that the policy is compliant with all our the background. domestic and international legal obligations. Earlier this year, the joint terrorism analysis centre raised our national terrorist threat level from substantial Lady Hermon: I am most grateful to the Home Secretary to severe. That means that a terrorist attack is highly for taking part in this section of the debate. That is lovely, likely. Approximately 500 individuals who are of interest and although the Minister was very good, it is always to the police and security services have travelled from very nice to have the Home Secretary here in person. the United Kingdom to Syria and the region since the We have an individual who lives in south Armagh—this start of the conflict, and it has been estimated that half is not in any way to criticise the people of south Armagh, of them have returned. who are ordinary, decent, hard-working individuals—whose In the context of that heightened threat to our national land straddles the border between the Republic of Ireland security, we need a power that will allow us to disrupt and Northern Ireland. I am not going to use parliamentary the travel, and control the return, of British citizens privilege to name him, but he is well known to the who have travelled abroad to engage in terrorist-related security services on both sides of the border and the activity, and to manage the threat they pose. The temporary Police Service of Northern Ireland, and it is well known exclusion power will do just that. It will make it an that he funds dissident republican terrorism. I would offence for an individual who is subject to an order to like the Home Secretary to confirm that that particular return to the UK without first engaging with the UK gentleman could be excluded using the temporary provision authorities. It will also allow for the imposition of power in this new legislation. I would love to see him certain limited requirements on the individual on his or kept out of his territory and his land in Northern her return. Ireland. Please confirm that he can be. 1207 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1208

Mrs May: I appreciate the eagerness with which the I turn now to the amendments tabled by the shadow hon. Lady rises to refer to that case, but I have to say to Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Normanton, her that I am not going to comment on a particular Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), and her case. As the Minister indicated earlier, however, the Bill colleagues. New clauses 9, 10 and 11 and new schedule 1 is not, of course, restricted in the type of terrorism it all require the Secretary of State to apply for permission refers to, and it does refer to those who have taken part from the courts before imposing a TEO. The mechanism in terrorist-related activity outside the UK, but I emphasise provided for in these amendments is almost identical to that situations would be looked at case by case, so this is that in the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures not a power that will automatically be applied to any Act 2011—indeed, it appears to have been copied so individual who satisfies those criteria. It is a matter of directly that the right hon. Lady may want to reconsider looking on a case-by-case basis to determine where it is the title of new clause 9, which refers to the imposition appropriate to apply this power. of terrorism prevention and investigation measures, which I suspect might be an error. Mr Grieve: I have listened carefully to what my right As the Minister with responsibility for national security, hon. Friend has said, particularly about our compliance it is right that I, as Home Secretary, and not the courts, with our own national and international legal obligations. impose an order of this kind. As I have said, this is a One anxiety that has been expressed about this measure discretionary power that will be used only in a limited is that a person could be particularly vulnerable during number of cases where it will have the greatest impact. the period before they might return, if they are located With oversight of all other national security and counter- in a country whose human rights record is inadequate. I terrorism matters, I am best placed to make an informed wonder whether my right hon. Friend might focus on judgment about whether a TEO is appropriate in each that issue, because my understanding has been that case, taking into consideration the wider context of the consular protection would remain for such an individual terrorist threat we face. For the same reasons, to vest the in exactly the same way as for somebody whose passport power to impose one of these orders in the Secretary of was still working. State without first requiring an application to the courts is in line with the comparable use of the royal prerogative Mrs May: I am very happy to respond to that point. to cancel the passport of a British citizen. We as a country take the issue of human rights We must also consider in this context the level of responsibilities very seriously in dealing with other countries interference with an individual’s rights as a result of the and their treatment of individuals, but the individual power. A TEO does not take away the right of an would remain a British citizen and, notwithstanding individual to return to the UK, and the in-country that their passport had been cancelled and they had to elements that might be imposed on an individual as part apply for the permit to return, as a British citizen of it are much less restrictive than those available under consular facilities would be available to them in those TPIMs, and for this reason do not require the same circumstances. level of review. There is therefore no need for a requirement to apply to the courts before imposing an order, and it will of course remain open to an individual to apply for Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): How judicial review of the decision to impose an order. would the person concerned prove to the British consular service that they were the person they claimed to be? Caroline Lucas: The way the Home Secretary is describing how people can respond to a TEO suggests they would Mrs May: In such circumstances, the passport will be able to access legal services. It does not take into probably still be in the individual’s possession, although account that they might be in a failed state, for example, it will have been cancelled in the sense of its ability to be or be being controlled by others or not have sufficient used to provide access to the United Kingdom, so I money. Does she not accept that in those circumstances, would expect them to have that document available to a TEO could actually mean a loss of intelligence about provide that proof. the suspect’s whereabouts and a loss of control? On the points made about the individual being in another country, if an individual subject to an order Mrs May: But we are talking about an individual attempts to travel to the UK, we will work closely with who, having had a TEO placed on them, attempts to the host country and consider appropriate action. This travel to the UK, at which point they would have to may include detention pending deportation action, but apply for a permit to return and the arrangements for only where appropriate under the laws of the other them to be accompanied by a police officer could be put country, and, again, where appropriate, UK police officers in place. I recognise that there could be some circumstances will escort the individual back to the UK. in which a person might not have immediate access to the legal review, but they would be able to get it at the We are discussing this proposal with other Governments, point at which they chose to return to the UK. This is in particular France and Turkey, in order to agree how about having the ability to ensure that certain people it will work best in practice. The problem of foreign return to the UK on our terms, and that it is a managed fighters travelling to Syria and Iraq and then seeking to return. return home is one we share with many of our international partners, and so far these discussions have been constructive. Frank Dobson: When would such an order become Once in the UK, the police may interview the individual valid—when it was served on the person concerned? in order to explore their activities abroad. We may then How would the British officials involved identify the subsequently require them to engage with a programme, person in order to serve the order on them? Would the potentially comprising reporting, notification of change process be triggered only if the person sought to come of address and de-radicalisation activities. to this country? 1209 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1210

Mrs May: A temporary exclusion order will be in an individual for breaching a temporary exclusion order. place, and it will come into effect when it is served or The second would prevent us from correctly implementing deemed to be served on an individual. The arrangements a temporary exclusion order, should a host country seek relating to its being served are similar to those that we lawfully to expel the individual under powers other than use for certain immigration rules relating to people deportation. Both amendments would seriously jeopardise outside the country. The TEO will come into effect key fundamentals of the policy and, perhaps, would not when it is served or deemed to be served. produce the result intended by the Opposition. I was about to talk about how the carriers will know whether to carry someone, because that subject has been mentioned in some of the other new clauses. On 8.15 pm the question of whether the courts or the Home Secretary In the light of what I have said, I hope that those who should make the decision, the Government and I are have tabled new clauses and amendments will see that absolutely committed to the appropriate and proportionate they are unnecessary and will not press them to a vote. use of this temporary exclusion power and, for the This is a necessary power that will be important in reasons I have set out, I believe that the Secretary of enabling us to mange the return of those who have State is best placed to ensure that it is used in that way. I undertaken terrorist activity outside the UK. I believe would hope, therefore, that the shadow Home Secretary that it is a necessary and proportionate power. will not press her new clauses to a vote. Opposition Members have also tabled new clauses 4, Lady Hermon: The UK authorities will have an obligation 5 and 6 and amendment 14, which seek to make provision to let the Home Office know about the passenger lists in for “notification and managed return orders”. These relation to individuals returning to the United Kingdom, would be orders imposed on a carrier such as an airline but can the Home Secretary reassure the Committee to notify the Secretary of State that a specified individual that she will work closely with her Irish counterpart to intended to travel to the UK and to notify the date, time ensure that the Irish Government keep similar information and location of that individual’s arrival in the UK. about those who are suspected of terrorism abroad? We Carriers already provide advance passenger information must ensure that there is close co-operation on the two to the Government’s border system. That information lists, which might contain the details of highly suspicious enables the current authority-to-carry scheme to operate individuals coming back into Ireland and indirectly and, similarly, it will underpin new schemes under clause 18 back into the UK through Northern Ireland. of the Bill. When an individual intending to travel to the UK is a person who is inadmissible to the UK, the national border targeting centre will contact the carrier Mrs May: The hon. Lady makes an important point, to refuse authority to carry the individual to the UK. given our relationship with the Republic of Ireland and The Government intend that individuals who are subject the operation of the common travel area. I can assure to temporary exclusion orders will be a class of passengers her that we work very closely with the Irish Government in respect of whom authority to carry must be sought on the necessary information exchange between us, to by carriers, under a new authority-to-carry scheme. ensure that the common travel area could not be—and, in general, is not—a means by which people can access The proposal that a carrier should be required to tell the UK when we do not wish them to do so. the Secretary of State that a specified individual intends to travel to the UK implies that every carrier operating As I was saying, this is a necessary and proportionate to the UK needs to know the details of every individual power and, given the circumstances in which we find liable to a managed return. Disclosing to carriers around ourselves, it is entirely appropriate to introduce a power the world the details of individuals reasonably suspected that will enable us to disrupt and mange the return of a of involvement in terrorism-related activity outside the number of individuals who have been involved in terrorist- UK is unnecessary. The Government hold and maintain related activity outside the UK. those details, and we match them against information provided by carriers. We know from our experience of Mr Hanson: I should like to speak to the amendments planning for and operating the current authority-to-carry and new clauses standing in my name and those of my scheme that carriers much prefer the Government to right hon. and hon. Friends. I am grateful to the Home do the matching. It is for the Government to take the Secretary for her explanation of the measures in the Bill, responsibility for getting that right and making the which are worthy of discussion today. We have tabled right decisions, which can result in individuals being new clauses 4 and 5 to provide a supportive narrative to prevented from travelling to the UK or, under the Bill, the one that the Home Secretary has put forward. The being liable to temporary exclusion and a managed new clauses and amendments taken together form some return. of the options that could support the control of terror Equally, the new clause providing for penalties to be suspects who are at our border in the UK rather than at imposed on carriers that fail to notify the Secretary of a foreign port. They provide a mechanism for the issuing State when a specified individual is travelling to the UK of a notification and managed return order, which is unnecessary. Criminal penalties are already in place would be similar to the measure proposed by the Home for carriers that fail to provide passenger and crew Secretary but with a slightly different emphasis. information when required to do so, and there is provision It is important that we recognise the threat posed by in schedule 2 to the Bill to complement those provisions British citizens travelling abroad to participate in terror with civil penalties. camps or to join the fight with ISIS in the middle east. Finally, amendments 15 and 16 relate to the interpretation The threat from ISIS is serious, and the Government of the temporary exclusion measure. The first of those need to do more to prevent young people from being amendments would impact on our ability to prosecute groomed and radicalised to go and fight, and, using the 1211 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1212 measure in clause 1, to deal with such people when they the Government have an interest, but does so by allowing try to return, having left the country to take part in such them to return to the UK and be managed in the UK, activity. as opposed to leaving us facing some practical difficulties That threat is still live. On 21 October, the Metropolitan elsewhere. Police Commissioner, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, was Our approach would require carriers to provide advance quoted as saying that five Britons were travelling to Iraq notice of travel bookings for certain named individuals and Syria to join ISIS every week. The Government’s in whom the Government have an interest, and that is own information states that more than 500 Britons have well and good. It would allow the British authorities to travelled to Syria and that as many as 250 are now have advance knowledge and notice of suspects’ travel seeking to return. Self-evidently, we need a mechanism plans so that arrangements could be made for police to protect the British citizen and to deal with those who interview or arrest at the port or border immediately on wish to return. It is also vital that we are able to deal their return to the UK. If that model were used as well, with people we know to be involved in these activities it would in part transfer the procedure that the Government but who are unaware that we know about them. There is are trying to achieve in a foreign port to a UK port. At a synergy between what we are trying to achieve and that point, interviews could be undertaken and action what the Government are proposing. We particularly could be taken against an individual, and we could also think there may be practical difficulties with the Bill in ensure that we had dealt with an individual of interest relation to individuals at foreign ports returning to the to the UK Government in the UK That could be an UK, and I would welcome the Home Secretary’s view. alternative model. The blanket exile proposal—I know the Home Secretary has not used that phrase—was referred to by the Mr Grieve: Is not one potential problem with the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, David right hon. Gentleman’s proposal, which is in many ways Anderson QC, as an perfectly reasonable in structure, that it does not prevent the individual from continuing to travel abroad between “announcement waiting for a policy” third countries? If the UK Government reasonably suspect when it was made. He was worried, and still has some that somebody is involved in terrorism, ensuring that worries, about whether it is legally and practically workable. person’s managed return—an act of a responsible We now have plans before us that, at first sight, appear Government—to this country is perhaps a priority. Is closer to managed return than exile, but I wonder how there not a danger that the right hon. Gentleman’s they work in practice. If the aim of the policy is to keep proposal would enable such a person to continue using dangerous individuals out of the country and then, their passport abroad, because the carrier would have ultimately, to manage their return, we need to explore no responsibility to give notification of travel between real issues about that, not least what happens when different countries? individuals do not choose to apply for consent to come back—or indeed when they do choose to do that. The Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the right hon. and Home Secretary has touched on this, but what happens learned Gentleman for his intervention, which touches to individuals in particular countries? Would Turkey be on one reason why we are presenting alternative, parallel happy to detain, potentially for months on end, a Briton models. I am not saying that the provisions in new suspected of illegally fighting for a terrorist organisation clause 4 would be appropriate in every circumstance, if he or she turned up at Ankara airport but was banned but I do not believe—if the Home Secretary can convince from departing to the UK? What options are in place me otherwise, we will look at that—that provision is in for that? It is not clear whether the British Government place for a formal managed return, as under our proposals; have negotiated agreements with particular countries we simply have the Home Secretary’s proposals for a and whether they intend to do that on a case-by-case request to come back or for detention at a foreign port basis. What provision is in place—if it is not detention—to of entry to prevent someone from returning. We are stop an individual who finds themselves faced with an seeking to give her a menu of options, and our approach order at the airport taking an alternative course of could be a better way of managing individuals. Judgments action, either returning to the host country in a different will be made by Ministers and the security services as to way, or returning and leaving for another country, not how this could be managed, but the concerns expressed the UK? There is a practical argument as to what by David Anderson QC and by Liberty, which I thank happens under the Bill to individuals in whom the for its assistance in helping us to table these provisions, Government have an interest. give rise to a potential alternative that could be examined. Our new clause 4 seeks to examine an alternative model, which could work in parallel with the Government’s Julian Smith: How would the right hon. Gentleman proposals but gives an opportunity for a managed return. get around the Home Secretary’s comments about the We have tabled new clauses 4, 5 and 6, and the consequential security implications of his model—giving out data to amendments, which we are happy to look at and to carriers that could compromise British national security? reflect on, given what the Home Secretary has said about them. There is an argument to be made that the Mr Hanson: We would be looking to do that in a Government’s measure is too blunt a tool, in that it number of circumstances anyway; data are already given either prevents people from coming back or allows to carriers about individuals. Under the Government’s them to return. A more graduated response would give model, information would also be provided to the carrier the security services and the Government much greater that the individual was of interest to the UK Government. choice in how they want to approach each individual. Our notification and managed return orders proposal Mrs May: On the face of it, this may not look like a provides an alternative that gives security to the Government significant point, but it is. There is a very real difference and takes effective action against individuals in whom between giving a list of a large number of people to a 1213 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1214

[Mrs May] to impose an exclusion order on an individual under the Bill if it becomes law. She would also have that power carrier and saying, “If any of these people travel, please under our proposals in new clause 4. Would it be better tell us” and looking at the carrier’s information and for her to have that power and have it judicially overseen saying, “This individual shall not be allowed to travel.” by a court procedure, so that we can ensure that we have The amount of information about individuals that the independent scrutiny of what the Home Secretary does? carrier holds is very different under the Government’s That is not our suggestion, but the suggestion discussed proposal; much more information about individuals by Mr Anderson as the terrorism overseer. would be held by the carriers under the Opposition’s The language used in new clauses 9, 10 and 11 and proposal, and that provides less protection for the new schedule 1 mirrors precisely—almost too precisely— individuals. that used in the Government’s own TPIM legislation. I hope that the Government can accept—if not today, Mr Hanson: Again, these are matters of genuine perhaps during the passage of the Bill—that the procedure debate and interest. The point I make to the Home to go through to award a temporary exclusion order Secretary is that this is entirely in her gift. Under the under our clause would be sound, fair and efficient in model we are proposing, her model is not being deleted the same way that TPIMs can be on the same legislative from the Bill. It is still there to provide the ability to say basis. to carriers, “If Mr X or Miss X turns up at Schiphol airport, we wish you to take action against them and Julian Smith: The rights being removed under the exercise the powers in the Bill.” I could have turned the exclusion orders are nowhere near the same as those television on at any time in the past month and seen the being removed under TPIMs, so the need for executive names of individuals that we know have travelled abroad— dynamism and an ability to move quickly should trump individuals that are publicly travelling abroad and that the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making. relatives have said have travelled abroad. It is quite possible for the Home Secretary not to make these two possibilities mutually exclusive. The issue is simply— Mr Hanson: It is still a big deal to refuse a British [Interruption.] If the Minister for Security and Immigration passport holder access to the United Kingdom. It is a wants to back up his boss and intervene, I am happy to very big step to take. I am not saying that it is the wrong allow him to do so. The debate is about the practical step to take, but it is a big step. The powers under difficulties of the Home Secretary’s proposals, which current TPIMs and, potentially, under the revised TPIMs, are to have people sign to say that they will come back involve restrictions on movement and contact. The Bill under managed return, to have detention or to stop as proposed could involve detention in a foreign country, carriers at ports. Are they the sole way to deal with pending return to the United Kingdom under a managed every case that is brought before the Home Secretary’s process. Charges may not have been made. A person notice? We are trying to provide at least one alternative could be held simply on the basis of evidence that has for consideration. been gathered by the security services. Although those measures are not the same, an element of judicial oversight is something to which we should aspire. As a fair man, I 8.30 pm am tabling these issues so that the Home Secretary can Before I move on, may I say to the Home Secretary: reflect on them because I am aware of the concerns that well spotted on our deliberate error? We did put terrorism exist outside and inside this House. Undoubtedly, there prevention and investigation measures at the top of one will be heavy scrutiny of these sections of the Bill and new clause. As she has noticed, we modelled the court their implications when the Bill reaches the House of procedure on the basis of her own legislation on TPIMs. Lords. It is important that we flag them up here to say Taken together, new clauses 9, 10 and 11 and new that we should have in place a mechanism whereby the schedule 1 have the effect of creating a court process Home Secretary has to make her case to a relatively through which the Secretary of State would have to go small cohort of individuals in order to progress the in order to place an individual on a temporary exclusion matter. I do not want to have the Home Secretary tied order under the proposals in the Bill. As has been said into a long-winded or unresponsive channel for application. in our previous discussions, there is currently no judicial I do not want the Home Secretary to have a slower process before a TEO can be awarded. processing ability that means she cannot enable counter- David Anderson QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism activity to take place in a speedy and effective terrorism legislation, gave evidence on 26 November to manner. the Joint Committee on Human Rights. According to However, if the Government believe that the TPIM media reports and the transcript, he was sceptical about regime is not unduly cumbersome when trying to control the imposition of the proposed temporary exclusion terror suspects in this country, there seems little reason orders against suspected jihadist fighters. He said: why it should not be appropriate for use on individuals “If the Home Secretary wants to impose a TPIM she has to in other countries, particularly as the Home Secretary go to a court first and if the court says she’s got it wrong, it will will often know who they are and have a close interest in say so.” them. The current stipulation is that the Home Secretary There is a mechanism and judicial oversight for that. simply has to reasonably consider whether someone is The principle is the same in relation to temporary involved in terror-related activity. That is a very low bar, exclusion orders. We must look carefully to see whether and one that I think should be subject to judicial the power requires the intervention of the court at any oversight. stage or whether it is envisaged as something that the In conclusion, I think that the Government should at Home Secretary can impose. That is a real debate for least look at the alternative model set out in new clause 4, this House to have. The Home Secretary has the power which has widespread support. I would also genuinely 1215 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1216 like to hear from the Home Secretary why she feels—she with the Government of that country because they were has already indicated as much—that the arrangements concerned about the risks that would be attendant on for TPIMs are not appropriate for what is still a severe their arrest. restriction on liberty, which might be the right thing to do, under the proposed TEO notice. I look forward to There is an issue of practice and practicality that needs hearing other Members’ contributions. to be thought through, and I hope that as a result of this debate my right hon. Friend and the Home Office may be in a position to provide reassurance as the Bill Mr Grieve: It is a pleasure to participate in this debate goes through the House that they have that subject very and to follow the right hon. Member for Delyn much in mind. Having listened to my right hon. Friend (Mr Hanson), who has put forward some alternative talk about proportionality, I am reassured that this is a proposals, by way of probing amendments, on how this matter of which she is well aware, as I know from the matter might be approached. Having listened to the experience of working with her as a colleague; she knows comments from both sides of the Committee, it seems it can sometimes be an issue. Subject to that, the process to me that there is actually a substantial measure of that she has adopted, which requires the individual to agreement that it is proper for the Government to take go to the consulate and get, in essence, a one-way ticket action to deal with the question of the managed return back to this country so that we know when the individual of individuals who have gone abroad from this country is returning, seems perfectly proper as long as the delay and whom the Home Secretary reasonably considered period is not too long, and as long as there is not some might be involved in terrorism. subtext intention of causing that individual problems in It is slightly unfortunate that we have become mired the country in which they happen to be located—a in the title of temporary exclusion orders, because it point that I made earlier. seems to me, having read the Bill, that what we are really That brings me to a further point raised by the right talking about is managed returns and how that process hon. Member for Delyn, which is about judicial process. is properly to be done. In that context, the approach I raised on Second Reading and again subsequently my adopted by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary question why it is so difficult to have a system in which seems perfectly logical. As I pointed out in my intervention there is not a judicial process to initiate it. I appreciate that on the right hon. Member for Delyn, one of the problems there is a difference between a TPIM and the temporary with his proposals is that as the passport remains with exclusion order proposed—a difference in terms of the the individual whom the Home Secretary reasonably restrictions that may be placed on the individual when considers to have committed an offence, that individual they return, which are capable of being challenged by could use the passport to travel between third countries judicial review anyway, and because the revocation of a at will. If the United Kingdom wishes to act responsibly, passport is an exercise of the royal prerogative, which is particularly as we currently have a system whereby we different in nature and quality from a TPIM. It is remove passports from individuals trying to travel abroad nevertheless a draconian sanction. in some circumstances, it seems rather odd that we should preserve that mechanism. As my right hon. Friend will confirm, removing On the other hand, there is an issue that I think the passports from individuals in this fashion is not a process Committee has to consider. A point was made earlier that has previously been carried out, certainly not in about how notification of the removal or revocation of circumstances where the individual when they are abroad a passport might take place. In some cases it might does not have the possibility of accessing a different prove impossible in practice to communicate the revocation nationality, for example. I continue to wonder whether to the individual concerned and to indicate that a a judicial process might be valuable. My right hon. managed return must take place, because the temporary Friend may have powerful arguments to make against exclusion order is now in place, through the person that, but I have not yet had explained to me in quite the contacting the consulate. That raises the prospect of an detail I would wish the Government’s reasoning on this individual turning up at an airport, having purchased a point. The point has been made that a temporary ticket, only to be turned away at security. I might be exclusion order may have to be issued as an emergency wrong about that, in which case it would be useful to or rather quickly. The current TPIM system allows for know how the Home Office envisages that working in a TPIM to be issued without a judge’s sanction—an practice. That in itself might not matter at all. If we are imprimatur—if necessary, so that could be included in dealing with a country that is a trusted partner—my this process. right hon. Friend indicated that there were discussions However, it strikes me—perhaps I am wrong, and I with France and Turkey—that might not be a problem. am always prepared to be persuaded that I am wrong—that The individual’s return might simply be delayed until in this process there is likely to be a slightly more they have gone to see the British consulate and been leisurely approach anyway, because the Government interviewed. will know that an individual is abroad and likely to However, the proportionality test that has to be applied come back to the United Kingdom, and unless that to these cases means that my right hon. Friend will have return is likely to happen very quickly, I would have to assess whether an individual—notwithstanding the thought it might normally be possible to apply ex parte fact that she might reasonably consider them to have to a court for the order to be sanctioned and for some been involved in terrorism—might be put at serious risk scrutiny to be carried out as to the reasons why it is to of having their human rights infringed, for example by take place. If that were to happen, it would also allow being detained or tortured, if revocation of their passport for a measure of judicial scrutiny as to whether the issue would lead to their being exposed as a person who of the temporary exclusion order might endanger a could be viewed as a terrorist in circumstances in which person’s fundamental rights because it would expose the Government would feel unable to share that information them to risk in their present location. 1217 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1218

[Mr Grieve] quite amount to rendition, because we are not sending them there; it is a sort of stationary rendition whereby Those are my thoughts on this matter. I should make people are left in a place where they may be in danger. it clear that I put them forward in an entirely probing spirit because the principle of what my right hon. Jeremy Corbyn: Does my right hon. Friend think that Friend is doing seems to me, as I indicated earlier, to be this will lead to a whole cadre of virtually stateless utterly unexceptionable, even though it is an unusual people who will congregate together in one place, and power. However, in the context of the risk and threat that will be a problem for absolutely everybody rather that the United Kingdom faces which, as I have said on than one state? Surely, as he rightly says, a state has a several occasions, I believe to be a real threat, this is responsibility towards its own nationals. reasonable, necessary and proportionate to a legitimate goal that the Government are trying to achieve. I hope Frank Dobson: I understand my hon. Friend’s point. that as the Bill goes through the House we will have an The whole proposition of exclusion orders seems to be opportunity to examine the proposal, which will enable predicated on the idea, first, that these people are us to get the right outcome on the provision. If we get totally rational; and secondly, that their greatest desire the right outcome, history has shown that it will cause is to come back to Britain. Neither of those things will my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary far less trouble necessarily be the case, because some very odd people with court challenges thereafter. are going to be involved.

Frank Dobson: As the Member for Holborn and Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The right St Pancras, whose constituency and constituents experienced hon. Gentleman seems to be in danger of attacking the the bombs on the tube at Russell square and on the bus idea that was originally presented rather than that contained at Tavistock square, I am second to no one in my desire in the Bill, which is much closer to being a process of to prevent terrorism from taking place in this country. It determining that, if somebody who is thought to be behoves all of us to do whatever we can to protect dangerous comes back to this country, we can control, people in this country from terrorism and not to have monitor and supervise them. Surely that is a more terrorists on the loose, whether they are home-grown sensible objective, which the original, apparent objective and have not been abroad, foreigners who come here, or of making people stateless would not have been. British citizens returning to Britain. Those British citizens have rights and duties. One of their most important Frank Dobson: I agree that the Government have rights is the right of abode in this country as a citizen, modified their position since the first daft statements but they also have a duty not to break our law or, as I were made—things have been made more rational—but understand it, international law. I do not think they have come up with the best proposition. The proposal for notification and managed return orders 8.45 pm may not be perfect by any means, but it is a better The British Government also have rights and duties proposition than that suggested by the Government. in this regard: a right to enforce the law, a duty to comply The peculiarity of the functions of British consular with the rule of law, and a duty to protect all our citizens, services when a person is suspected is extraordinary. whoever they may be and wherever they may be. If British The consular services will serve people with an order citizens abroad are suspected of terrorism by British and then, if somebody else nicks them and puts them in officialdom—by the British Government and their prison or starts torturing them, the same consular services agencies—then the British Government have a duty to will turn around and start looking after their interests. bring them to justice, but in the process of doing so, That seems to me to be at the odd end of the functions they cannot stop them being treated as British citizens. of a consular service. Temporary exclusion orders are in danger of neither protecting people’s fundamental rights nor getting people Mr Winnick: If this measure does not succeed, what brought to justice. A person suspected by the security would my right hon. Friend say in response to the services, and then by the Home Secretary, of being a powerful argument made by the right hon. and learned threat to security is either guilty of it or not guilty, but Member for Beaconsfield about the judicial process? whichever they are, these things apply. That person is Would there not be a very strong case that a court then to be served with an order, or “deemed” to be should decide on temporary exclusion orders? served with one; I am not quite sure what “deemed” means in these circumstances. If they are served with Frank Dobson: That might be an improvement, but such an order, one effect will be to tip them off that if the practicalities of what happens in Turkey or Syria are they come back to this country they are very likely to be not changed by a court decision or endorsement here. prosecuted for terrorist offences. That may cause them What the process does not do—I would have thought to wish not to come back but to disappear. Allowing a that we all want to see this done—is bring people under British citizen who is suspected of terrorism to our jurisdiction, prosecute them and, if they are found disappear—in fact, in certain circumstances, possibly to guilty, jail them. Surely that should be the main objective be provoked into disappearing—does not seem to be a of Britain’s policy. The process is likely to get them particularly good idea. picked up, but not by us: they will be picked up by As the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield somebody who may or may not be one of our allies. I (Mr Grieve) said, there is then the question of somebody believe, therefore, that the basic Government proposal who has been fingered by Britain as a terror suspect undermines and interferes with their fundamental rights subsequently being picked up by the security service of of abode in this country and it does not achieve what we the country in which they are located. This does not want, which is to see terrorists brought to justice. The 1219 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1220 proposal of my right hon. Friend the Member for What is more, we did not give much thought to how Delyn (Mr Hanson) would address both issues, so it such power might be abused—not that it is at the moment, would be an improvement. but it might be in the future—or how many errors might The human right of a British citizen to abode in this occur, which does happen. We had at the back of our country is not some fancy right dreamt up in Brussels mind a model of accountability that, frankly, does not or Strasbourg, and it has not been created by the Human work. The Minister for Security and Immigration will Rights Act 1998. It is a right of citizens to which be familiar with the number of times on which he and I Gladstone and Disraeli would have subscribed, not to have had exchanges that amount to my asking him a mention Palmerston, who, after all, sent a gunboat to question and his writing back something like, “I never Greece to protect the interests of an exceedingly dodgy comment on security matters.” That is not a particularly Maltese who probably had committed a crime. There is good form of accountability for any mechanism. nothing new about this right and we need to be very My concern is that along with progressive secrecy, careful abut doing anything that would undermine it. secret courts and all the other things we now have, the I believe that notification and managed return orders weak accountability— do not deny the fundamental rights at all; do not expose people to being picked up by the Turkish authorities Julian Smith: Will my right hon. Friend give way? and still less by the Syrian authorities; involve the identification of the suspects but do not tip them off Mr Davis: If my hon. Friend will permit me, I am that they will be arrested if they come back to this coming to the end of my speech. country; which the temporary exclusion orders do; bring The level of secrecy, the low level of accountability the suspects within British jurisdiction; and will result, and the power accruing to the Government, which is if those people are guilty, in their being prosecuted and enormous when we think about our historic liberties in punished, which is what we want. We do not want them this country—this is in no way a criticism of the Home roaming around. If they come back here and are guilty Secretary, as I would say the same of any Home Secretary, of what they are suspected of, they will be picked up any Foreign Secretary or any Secretary of State—are when they arrive at the port, the airport or St Pancras why I am attracted by new clause 11. I do not know station. That is what we want to happen and it will not whether it will be pressed to a vote tonight, or whether happen under the exclusion orders. it will come back on Report, but I ask the Government closely to consider the TPIM model. It is very sensible Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I and those on the Opposition Front Bench have made a had not intended to speak today, but I have been sitting good case for it. here getting rather more uncomfortable about some aspects of the proposal. I do not propose to go into the Caroline Lucas: I want to say a few words about the complex practical issues, which were well laid out by the amendments tabled in my name. The tone of the debate right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank has been useful and thoughtful and I have agreed with Dobson), who gave thoughtful input, as ever, and by my much of what others on both sides of the House have right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield said. We are all trying to grasp our way towards something (Mr Grieve). They outlined the issues and complexities that provides robust security while guaranteeing human very well and I suspect that those complexities will best rights. My worry about the Government’s proposals on be addressed by negotiation between those on the two temporary exclusion orders is that they get that balance Front Benches, which is not something I often recommend. slightly wrong. There is a significant risk that, for many What concerns me today is the issue of the Home of the reasons that were outlined by the right hon. Secretary herself exercising the power. I am concerned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), that it comes about without prior judicial approval or, they will, rather perversely, be counter-productive. I indeed, without being a power of the court, which would therefore think that the alternative system of notification be my preference. Over time, I have become progressively and managed return orders has a lot to commend it, concerned about the accretion of fairly absolute power although the comments of the right hon. and learned to the state in counter-terrorism policy. Absolute power Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) caused me to is pretty important. My hon. Friend the Member for think again about how it would work in practice. There Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) suggested that these is a lot to explore here. measures did not impinge on people’s liberties in the same way as TPIMs might, but I am afraid that the impingement is pretty sizeable. I do not necessarily 9pm disapprove of it at all, but it should be exercised with a I come at this issue not just as a representative of a degree of judicial care. party that has often spoken out about the way in which These accretions of power have come about since the successive Governments have used the threat of terrorism late 1980s and the 1990s when we avowed the various to justify the undermining of hard-won civil liberties security services that had up until then not been recognised and human rights, but as the MP for a city that was in public policy, or that were at least not in the public once home to two brothers who have just lost their lives domain. At the time, it seemed quite reasonable for the fighting in Syria. Jaffar Deghayes, who was aged 17, Crown prerogative to be used as a method of giving and his brother Abdullah, who was aged 18, died in warrants and of enacting the state’s will to protect the separate incidents earlier this year after leaving the UK public. I took the 1994 Bill on the Secret Intelligence in the belief that taking up arms against the murderous Service through the House. We did not foresee the level Assad regime was the right thing to do. They might of use—the number of warrants used and the level of have been typical of the kind of young idealists to power being exercised—that is now necessary to deal whom the Bill will apply, had they not been killed, but with the Islamist terrorist threat. instead tried to return home. 1221 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1222

Their father, Abubaker Deghayes, still lives in Brighton to do next and then marching down to the consulate and I would like to share his response to the proposals and doing it. The reality on the ground is likely to be far we are debating: more complex than the hon. Gentleman suggests. “The strategy you are using with our sons does not work. You If someone does complete the process successfully, are criminalising them just out of the fear they might become a the Home Secretary will have what is defined as “reasonable threat to this country. Do not push them to be radicalised, used time” to let them come home. I am concerned that, as by groups like Isis who are out for revenge and thirst for blood.” far as I can see, there is no indication of what that time His advice bears listening to. Not only does his bitter would be. The period of enforced temporary residence personal experience give him insight into how we might in another country could effectively trap British citizens better respond to the growing number of British citizens in countries where jihadi groups have a strong presence, leaving home to fight abroad, but his position is, in such as Sudan, Somalia, Turkey, Syria and Iraq. As the many ways, backed up by evidence. human rights group Liberty states: If the primary purpose of counter-terrorism policy is “Those who are equivocal are more likely to be pushed towards to make us safer, which clearly it is, it might well be terrorist factions by the imposition of executive led punishments counter-productive to condemn individuals to being and enforced periods in close proximity to such groups.” exiled from their families and friends. Evidence from If the primary purpose of counter-terrorism policy is to countries such as Sweden and Denmark clearly indicates make us safer, why would we take steps to alienate that families and friends can play an essential role in individuals by condemning them to exile when some of challenging and ultimately overturning extremists’ beliefs. them—I quite understand that this does not apply to all I know that that is not the subject of what we are of them—may simply have made a terrible mistake? discussing, but I look forward to the opportunity to They may have been horrified by the bloodshed and discuss the whole issue of de-radicalisation tomorrow. I barbarism that they have seen and want to find a way to will say no more about it now because the Chair, come home. Mr Crausby, would stop me, but this issue is related to the amendments on alternative de-radicalisation Mrs May: The hon. Lady has referred a number of programmes that have been tabled for debate tomorrow. times to “exile” for the individuals concerned. We have If return is denied to those who, for practical or other to be absolutely clear that the provision will not exile an reasons, have been unable to apply for the permit that individual or prevent them from having the right to removes the temporary exclusion order, we will run into return to the United Kingdom. It will mean that when problems. I was not convinced by the Home Secretary’s they return to the United Kingdom, it will be on a response to my saying that people may well not be in a managed basis under terms that the Government set. position to access legal advice or may not have sufficient funds to jump through all the hoops that the TEO Caroline Lucas: I thank the Home Secretary, and I requires them to jump through, particularly if they are accept that she is technically correct, but I am describing in a failed or failing state. Such people will effectively be a situation in which, because a person has not been able denied the right to return. to follow the process that she described, they cannot The Home Secretary’s plans assume that the people find a way back and feel as though they were in exile. in question will know that they are subject to a TEO. If the primary purpose of counter-terrorism policy is That cannot be guaranteed, given that many of those to make us safer, it is surely sensible to ensure that who are targeted will be in countries that are suffering individuals who definitely pose a threat are somewhere from internal armed conflict. They will not just be where it is easier to keep an eye on them, investigate sitting behind a letter box—it is much more complicated them, arrest them, charge them and prosecute them, than that. should the evidence warrant it. Surely we want suspected If somebody does have the means to apply for a terrorists close at hand so that we can take targeted permit to allow them to return, they will have to attend action against them rather than allow them to roam an interview. Failure to do so, either because they are who knows where doing who knows what. As the old unable to do so or are prevented from doing so, could adage goes, “Keep your friends close and your enemies result in their being refused the right to return. even closer”. Moreover, if someone is intent on carrying out a terrorist attack on British soil, does the Home Secretary really believe that having to apply for a permit Julian Smith: I am trying to keep up with the hon. and attend an interview will act as any kind of deterrent Lady. What are the circumstances that will make it or obstacle? impossible for people to apply to the consulate or The Government’s scheme does have one element to somewhere else to come back to the UK? She is making recommend it, which is the steps taken to ensure that a number of assertions that she is not backing up. agencies and the police know of an individual’s location should they need to place him or her under surveillance. Caroline Lucas: I do not think that I am making That comes from the stipulation that someone return assertions. I am asking questions about whether it will on a specific flight to a specific airport. However, I be possible for people in all circumstances to go through argue that the same outcomes could be secured by very formal processes at a time when they may well be placing a simple notification requirement on carriers, as living in a culture of fear and when, by definition, set out in new clauses 4 to 6. Crucially, as the right hon. severe conflict is going on. Such people might already Member for Holborn and St Pancras described, that have been fingered as someone who is trying to leave approach would not automatically alert a terror suspect and be at particular risk of attack from others. I am to the fact that they had come to the notice of the describing a rather more complex situation than someone authorities and that their return was being monitored. I simply using the postal system, knowing what they have argue that it would instead facilitate a targeted and 1223 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1224 intelligence-led response, and that the ability to undertake Julian Smith: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree close surveillance of suspects would be maximised, with that as well as the intelligence issue, the British people a view to arrest and prosecution. The option under want the state to act in a nimble and dynamic way, as existing counter-terrorism powers of interviewing a suspect long as measures are proportionate, against one of the on their arrival back in the UK would also be retained, biggest threats to our security in decades? I suspect he and there would be further options as appropriate. acknowledges that broader point given his role on the I have some concerns about the human rights aspects Intelligence and Security Committee. of the proposals on TEOs, but I also believe that they could end up being counter-productive from a security Mr Howarth: I was coming on to talk about the sorts perspective. They will not provide the robust level of of cases that we might be confronted with. If my security that people in Britain have a right to expect. remarks answer the hon. Gentleman’s point, so be it. If not, I am sure he will intervene again. Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): The right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), Temporary exclusion orders and the managed return my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and process, as the Home Secretary described it, is seen as St Pancras (Frank Dobson), the right hon. Member for the alternative to a judicial process that for various Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and now the hon. practical reasons would either be not very just, or Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) have at least closed or partly closed. It would therefore be all argued, from slightly different standpoints, that the impractical and difficult to judge whether proceedings ideal situation is to have some sort of judicial process. I were fair or otherwise for anyone who was not involved, do not think anybody could argue against that from a and even for some of those who were. In principle the democratic and human rights perspective. In cases in provisions in clause 2(1) are probably acceptable, but I which there is the possibility of a prosecution or other have a couple of issues—this goes directly to the point judicial process to bring about the type of outcome that made by the hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon we desire, that is clearly the preferred option. (Julian Smith)—about how they will work in practice. Perhaps one way of looking at it would be to give As I see it, the choice is between the measures in the examples of the kinds of cases that we are likely to see Bill—temporary exclusion orders with a managed with people returning from Syria or Iraq. For convenience, return—or a form of judicial process that might be even I have bracketed them under three headings. They are worse than that. Perhaps the Home Secretary will correct not mutually exclusive and it is possible that in some me if I am wrong, but in almost every case I can cases all three will apply, and in others just one. envisage that would be affected by this process, the information that will determine the trigger of a temporary exclusion order would be based on intelligence—she is 9.15 pm not shaking her head in disagreement, so I will assume assent on that point. If that is the case, any form of The first group identified, supported by research, are judicial process to verify or authorise that process would those who return traumatised. We have all seen graphic inevitably involve wholly or partly closed proceedings. examples of horrific acts that have taken place. Some of It would be impossible to give evidence from intelligence those returning traumatised will have witnessed beheadings in open court for all the reasons that we have repeatedly and other atrocities carried out by those they have debated. Although that is the ideal situation, given the fought alongside. They may have had mental issues presumption that in most, if not all, of these cases the before they went out to fight with ISIS—or whichever evidence will be intelligence based, it will be difficult to group they were with—but it is certainly possible, because rely solely on a court proceeding, no matter how it was of that trauma, that they will have mental health issues constructed or held, other than on the basis that it when they come back. would be either closed, or at very least semi-closed. The second category has been well documented by researchers in touch with people in Syria and Iraq: it is Mr David Davis: The right hon. Gentleman is a those who have gone out for idealistic reasons. They thoughtful and long-standing expert in this area, and he may have understandably opposed the Assad regime, is right to say that it will be a Special Immigration felt there was a humanitarian cause and gone out there Appeals Commission style process. In the past, however, to do their bit for democracy and the liberation of the SIAC-style processes with control orders and TPIMs people in that part of the world. There is no doubt that have prevented quite egregious errors—he will remember some of them will become disillusioned. They may be the case of MI5 presenting the same passport two weeks quite easy to reintegrate back into society. They have running against two different suspects, and that being seen the alternative and perhaps will have come to caught and stopped by the SIAC. My concern is not recognise the merits of our democratic system, the rule just about the increase in power; it is also the error rate of law, human rights and so on. and the fact that someone can be denied serious rights without a proper review. The right hon. Gentleman is right that a SIAC-style process would be necessary. He Frank Dobson: I wonder whether, when the Home knows I am not fond of that, but it is better than nothing. Secretary replies, she could make clear who, in relation to Syria, would be regarded as a terrorist suspect. Mr Howarth: I think I am grateful to the right hon. Would someone who is not a jihadist but has gone out Gentleman for his intervention, but none of that changes to fight against the Assad regime, sympathising with the fact that, regardless of the quality of the submission and supporting the British Government, be regarded as to the SIAC court, some intelligence material would be a terrorist? There may even be a few who have gone out required. Even from a justice point of view that is not to fight for the Assad Government. Would they be an ideal situation, and that is a problem. regarded as terrorists? It is not at all clear. 1225 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1226

Mr Howarth: I think I am grateful to my right hon. many of them would now acknowledge that they made Friend for his intervention, although I rather suspect it a mistake and it has gone wrong. Clause 9, however, was aimed more at the Home Secretary than at me. introduces significant offences. It states: Some fighters out there are involved in ISIS or another “An individual subject to a temporary exclusion order is guilty group and they went out to fight for a completely of an offence if, without reasonable excuse, the individual returns different cause from the one they have ended up fighting to the United Kingdom in contravention of the restriction on for. It is literally that complicated. return specified in the order.” On the disillusionment front, we will talk about the It would be extremely helpful if the Home Secretary Prevent strategy tomorrow. I suspect there are some gave us greater clarity, either now or later, about what means by which Prevent, or a revised form of Prevent, a reasonable excuse would be. I would not want would be appropriate for those who have come practicalities—for example, a person not knowing they back disillusioned and want to reintegrate back into had an exclusion order against them—to be an issue. society. Clause 9(4) states: “In a case where a relevant notice has not actually been given I am sure nobody will disagree that the most difficult to an individual, the fact that the relevant notice is deemed to group are those who were radicalised in the UK, adopted have been given to the individual under regulations under section 10 a particular kind of Salafist view and went out specifically does not…prevent the individual from showing that lack of in pursuit of jihad. They think still that they are out knowledge of the temporary exclusion order, or of the obligation there creating a caliphate, which is the whole meaning imposed under section 8, was a reasonable excuse for the purposes behind what ISIS are doing. Some will return not of this section.” because they have stopped believing in that particular We need to be clear about what a reasonable excuse ideology, but because they want to resume their activities would be in this instance. in the UK. That is the most difficult group. Many of these individuals already led chaotic lives, To conclude, I would be grateful if the Home Secretary but they are now in a zone of operations that in itself is answered a couple of questions. I realise it is difficult in chaotic, and I think that many will want to return. an open forum such as this, but will she indicate what However, the fact that there is uncertainty about what assessment will be carried out of the individuals concerned would be a reasonable excuse for returning—of getting to determine which of those three categories—it might on that plane and coming back—and the risk of up to be all three—they fit into? Will the conditions applied five years in prison or a summary conviction of up to to a managed return relate to that assessment? If she 12 months could act as a disincentive. could say a bit more about that, it might give people I think we should be easing the path as best we can to greater confidence that the process she is proposing is as many as possible of those who want to come back to preferable to a judicial process that, because it is based be de-radicalised or rehabilitated. In some instances, on intelligence, might at worst be completely closed and unless we are absolutely clear about the nature of these at best partly closed. offences and, in particular, about what would be construed as a reasonable excuse for return when the person does not know whether a temporary exclusion order is in John McDonnell: I seek some clarity on clause 9 on place, it could provide a disincentive to carrying out the pages 5 and 6. purpose that the Government, the Opposition and others We know of two young men who have left my want to happen—the process of managed return. constituency to fight—we believe—in Syria, and we worked with one of the families, with the assistance of Jeremy Corbyn: I shall speak briefly because I know the Government, to enable them to go to Turkey to try the Home Secretary is about to reply. Following the and convince the young man to return. When I read his speech of the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and letters to his parents, I found them to be extremely Howden (Mr Davis) about the general direction in sincere. He thought he was going to Syria to fight which anti-terror law has gone, I want to make two against the Assad regime—he called it “jihad”—to protect essential points. Ever since I have been a Member, we people being bombarded by the regime and to prevent seem to have had some piece of anti-terror legislation what he considered to be war crimes. I also found him before us every year. I assume that there is a very large sincere in his hope that his parents would not be distressed. department in the Home Office that is writing next It was a rather sad leaving letter. At one point, he year’s anti-terror Bill and the one for the year after that. explained to his parents that there was still a few bob I am sure there will be an ambition to do that. left on his Oyster card for them to use. It was a short, The theme that runs through all such legislation is an extremely moving letter from a young man in his late attempt to give greater and greater executive powers to teens, early 20s, explaining his intentions. I believe that the Home Secretary, which are usually rowed back by a many young men, and possibly women, have gone out combination of the courts and parliamentary action; with what they and others would consider to be the best then, a year or two later, we come back to yet another of intentions: to engage in a military action to protect counter-terror Bill in respect of which the Home Secretary, people from the abuse of human rights by a dictatorial no doubt with the very best of intentions, is nevertheless regime that, as we now know, was using gas and other given a high degree of executive power. It is no part of weapons against its own people. our duty as elected Members of Parliament to undermine I am trying to find a mechanism to encourage people an independent judicial process and hand executive to come back and be reintegrated into our society powers to Ministers, on the basis of which they can because I think that a lot of people who went out realise either detain or exclude people under any process whatever. they made a mistake; they might have thought their That is fundamental to what I understand our democracy intentions virtuous in the first instance, but I think to be. 1227 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1228

Although there is—ultimately, I suppose—some degree Our job is to scrutinise legislation, and that is exactly of judicial oversight when an excluded person finally what we are doing tonight. We can vote to change some comes back to this country, I would have thought that of the amendments tonight, or we can return to the the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member issues on Report. However, I hope the Home Secretary for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) are surely understands that a great many of us are deeply concerned true and important. If someone goes abroad, albeit on about the principle of dealing with British nationals in the basis of perhaps misguided notions about what they this way, as we would be in relation to any other country. can do when they reach the zone of conflict to which they We are concerned about the long-term consequences: have gone, they will be there and will subsequently be about what such treatment does to those people, and prevented from returning. That might render them at about the increased radicalisation of others. My hon. risk of imprisonment by another judiciary, which might Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John have much less concern for human rights than anyone McDonnell) talked about that. here, and they could then be tortured and all kinds of I have encountered young people who have been terrible things could happen to them. Would the possession attracted to what ISIS is doing. They say that what the of British nationality on the part of someone affected west did in Iraq and Afghanistan was appalling, and in that way require the British Government to intervene was questionably legal in the case of Afghanistan and on their behalf to stop them being tortured, given that the definitely illegal in the case of Iraq. We are living with Government opposed their return to Britain in the first the consequences of the war on terror of 2001, and if place? This whole process is full of many complications we continue to try to create legal obstacles and make and contradictions, which I hope have been adequately value judgments about people without considering the thought through by the Home Secretary in introducing overall policy we are following, we will return to legislation this legislation. such as this again and again, year after year. Secondly, I want to note the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): That is a humbling We are involved in a process of making subjective thing. It is, however, a lamentable fact that my constituent judgments about who goes where to fight for what, and Omar Hussain appeared on the BBC to express considerable for whom. My right hon. Friend made the point that if support for ISIS. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that somebody goes to fight for ISIS in Syria—I wish they such people need to be subject to special measures when would not; I have no truck whatever with ISIS—they they return to the United Kingdom? will be deemed to be a terrorist and a dangerous person. If they go to fight for the Syrian Government, I presume Jeremy Corbyn: I have no support for ISIS whatsoever, the same point applies, but if they fight for the free and obviously that should apply to someone who has Syrian army, which is supported by the Americans and committed crimes, but we should bear in mind that the British, and they do things as despicable as they expressing a political point of view is not in itself an would in any other force, are they then deemed to be all offence. The commission of a criminal act is clearly a right? Do they then have to prove which particular force different matter, but expressing a point of view, even an they joined in Syria’s three-way civil war? unpalatable one, is sometimes quite important in a There is a further complication. If someone enters democracy. We should be slightly cautious about Syria from Turkey to fight with the Kurdish forces, announcing that we will start to deal with people on the having been taken there by the PKK, which is a listed basis of a general view that they have expressed. We terrorist organisation in Turkey, they would nevertheless should think seriously about where our foreign policy be on the side of the Kurdish forces against the forces of has brought us, and what our legislative position now is. the Syrian Government and against ISIS. There are an awful lot of contradictions surrounding how we decide Steve Baker: I am very much inclined to agree with what who is a good fighter and who is a terrorist; who is the hon. Gentleman is saying, but the problem is that struggling for liberation and who is a terrorist. There this particular individual expressed support for beheadings was a time when people involved in Umkhonto we with a knife. I feel that the practical realities mean that Sizwe in South Africa were known as terrorists; they we must take special measures in the case of such people. were later welcomed to this country as freedom fighters. Things can turn full circle. Jeremy Corbyn: I would want that person to have some None of what I am saying is intended to give any succour, kind of treatment, or I would want measures of some comfort or support to ISIS, but I feel that we should think kind to be taken, but expressing support for something about this rather more carefully and avoid the knee-jerk and doing it are two rather different things. reaction of saying, “These are bad fighters and those are There are very unpleasant parallels in the British colonial good fighters, so we will ban these and allow those in.” past. I sat through the hearings in the High Court when the Mau Mau people were seeking compensation. The 9.30 pm way in which they had been treated by the British Army Mr George Howarth: My hon. Friend has already in Kenya in 1955 was disgusting and disgraceful beyond answered the question that I was going to ask, but I will belief. We are now going through a horrible, vile period make my point anyway. I am sure he agrees that there is in Syria. We must understand where we have come from no comparison between the barbaric acts that are being and how we will get through this period without denying committed by members of ISIS and what was done by our own civil liberties and encouraging more people to the freedom fighters in South Africa. join in this whole ghastly process. Jeremy Corbyn: Of course that is true. I have no truck Mrs May: This has been a constructive and well-informed with those who commit those barbaric acts, and nor debate. Some Members have raised practical questions does any other Member. and others have raised questions of principle, but it was 1229 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1230

[Mrs May] individual would be managed on their return to the United Kingdom. For some, it would be appropriate to the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras look at further action when they return to the UK—for (Frank Dobson) who brought home to us why we must example, it could be right to put someone on a TPIM—or look at the issue of our terrorism legislation when he it might be appropriate for them to be put in the explained that his own constituency had been affected direction of some form of programme that helps to by not the theory but the actuality of terrorism, and de-radicalise them. The right hon. Member for Holborn that people had lost their lives as a result. So this is not and St Pancras raised the issue of potential prosecution, an academic discussion; we are talking about a real too, and it may be that there is evidence and it is threat to this country, and we need to do everything we appropriate to prosecute somebody when they return. can to combat that. So we are talking about this being done on a case-by-case The hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) basis. I know that is a well-used phrase, but that is and my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice genuinely intended to operate in this instance. and Howden (Mr Davis) talked about the balance between I hope that answers the point the hon. Member for civil liberties and national security. I have always taken Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) made in referring the view that without our security we cannot enjoy our to her two constituents who had died in Syria. Of civil liberties, but I would simply point out that this course we think of the father she quoted, who has seen Government reviewed counter-terrorism legislation when his sons die in those circumstances. Again, I assure her we came in and took a number of steps such as reducing that we would decide whether to impose a TEO on a the period of pre-charge detention from 28 to 14 days, case-by-case basis. As I have said, people will go out to so we have been very conscious throughout of the need Syria for a whole variety of reasons, some of them always to be aware of the freedoms we hold dear and believing they are going for humanitarian purposes. the desire to ensure we can maintain those. The Government have given a clear message to everyone: I am grateful for the constructive tone adopted by if you are thinking of going out to Syria for humanitarian most of those who spoke in the debate. There will of purposes, don’t go. There are better ways of helping the course be discussion of the details and consideration people of Syria than going out there and potentially of how best to achieve our desired objective, but many getting caught up in the fighting and losing your life. of those who spoke recognised the legitimate aim of I welcome the constructive approach adopted by the what the Government are doing. It is perfectly legitimate right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who led for to try to ensure we can manage the return to this the official Opposition, and by my right hon. and country of those who may pose a threat to the people of learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve). the UK. I want to respond to some of the points that they and The right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) others have raised. A number of Members spoke as talked about the complexity of the situation we are though the Opposition’s notification and managed return dealing with, particularly in relation to Syria and Iraq. proposals were an alternative to the Government’s People going out there, sometimes with the best of proposals, but I think the right hon. Member for Delyn intentions, may find themselves being radicalised. People made it clear that they were in addition to our proposals. may go out to fight or work with one particular group The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John but get caught up in fighting with other, more extreme McDonnell) asked what would constitute a reasonable terrorist organisations. So it is a very complex picture; I excuse. In fact, that would ultimately be for the courts understand that. to decide. A reasonable excuse could involve circumstances The right hon. Gentleman raised the question of in which an individual had inadvertently breached the whether people would be looked at in categories, and terms of their permit to return to the UK for practical described a number of categories. As I have said, individuals reasons—for example, when their plane had been diverted. will be considered on a case-by-case basis. Whether they meet the criteria set out in the Bill will be considered, Frank Dobson: If a person who had been made the and that will include looking at them in much the way subject of an order that had been deemed to have been he described, and putting in place the appropriate measures served came to this country without knowing that it in relation to particular individuals. Of course, such had been served, would they have committed an offence? considerations will be made in consultation with operational partners, notably the security services and the police, Mrs May: I was about to come on to the issue of but that this will be done on a case-by-case basis is a serving the order. It is set out in the Bill that the fact very important element that people should remember. that someone does not know that an order has been served is not necessarily a sufficient excuse, but that is a Mr George Howarth: My point in illustrating those matter that would be tested in the courts. They would categories is that the hope is that the conditions attached be looking at the action that was to be taken in relation to the return would point individuals in the direction of to a breach, and it would be for them to determine what prevention or some form of surveillance, as the hon. a reasonable excuse would be. An order would be served Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) accepted in person whenever possible, but when that was not might be necessary. I was interested in those two things possible, we would seek to ensure that an individual was coming together. made aware of the order through other mechanisms. We might, for example, seek to serve it at the individual’s Mrs May: I understand the point the right hon. last known address or serve the order to file. As I said Gentleman was making, and the intention is indeed earlier, similar systems work effectively in other contexts, that that will be done on a case-by-case basis—both the such as informing foreign nationals about decisions on question whether there should be a TEO, and how that their immigration status. 1231 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill15 DECEMBER 2014 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 1232

Frank Dobson: This reminds me of one of my as to who is being carried is already provided by carriers constituents. He went to Somalia and then went to when they submit advance passenger information to the Djibouti, where he was arrested and handed over to the Government’s border system. But, as I say, it is then for Americans. When he said he was a British citizen, he the Government to determine whether one of those was told, “No, you’re not. The Home Secretary has individuals is somebody against whom action should be taken your citizenship away.” He was unaware of that taken through not providing the authority to carry. fact, but I gather that the order was deemed to have As part of the TEO, the individual’s passport will been served on him in Somalia because it had been sent have been cancelled, which makes it much more difficult to his mother’s address in Islington. for them to travel through other countries. That point was made by a number of Members, including my right Mrs May: As I have said, when it is impossible to hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield. serve an order on an individual in person, it is standard He, like a number of other hon. Members, mentioned practice to make every attempt to serve it in a way that the other issue I wish to deal with: whether or not the ensures the information gets to them. Using their last decision to impose a TEO should be for the courts or known address is one way in which such decisions are for the Secretary of State. Comparisons were made with served. TPIMs, where we have that judicial process in place, but even in that process the initial decision is taken by the John McDonnell: Can we be clear on this point? Secretary of State. Arguments have been made in the Clause 9(4) states that when a relevant notice past that the decision should be given over entirely to “has not actually been given to an individual, the fact that the the courts, but I have been clear that it is important that relevant notice is deemed to have been given to the individual…does such decisions, where we are imposing restrictions on not…prevent the individual from showing that lack of knowledge an individual, are being taken by someone who is of the temporary exclusion order…was a reasonable excuse”. democratically elected and therefore accountable to the To be frank, that will not be strong enough in many electorate—to the people—for them. cases. As for whether or not there should then be a separate automatic court process in relation to the imposition of Mrs May: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his a TEO, this is about the operation of a royal prerogative intervention, but as I have just said to the right hon. in terms of the cancellation of a passport, and that Member for Holborn and St Pancras, the point is that operation currently does not have that judicial process what is a reasonable excuse will be tested in the courts. I inserted within it—the decision is taken by the Secretary did not quote the exact words but I cited the spirit of of State. That is the first point to make. The second the point in clause 9(4). As I say, that matter would be point is that the TPIMs have far more restrictions that tested by the courts and it would be for them to determine can be imposed on an individual than would be imposed whether or not what the hon. Gentleman describes simply by the TEO. A number of hon. Members referred constituted a reasonable excuse. to the TEO in terms of taking away the right of abode for somebody in the UK, and I intervened on the hon. 9.45 pm Member for Brighton, Pavilion in respect of her use of the term “exile”. This is not about saying to somebody Let me deal with two specific points about the Opposition that they are for ever exiled from the United Kingdom proposals, the first of which relates to the process of and cannot return. This is about not stopping somebody’s information going to carriers for the notification and right of abode in the United Kingdom, but saying to an managed return order. The proposal works only because individual about whom there is concern that they have the full name and birth details of individuals are disclosed been involved in terrorism-related activity outside the to all carriers. The existence of that list and any failure UK that when they return they will do so on the basis of by any carrier to protect that data could expose a a process that the Government have put in place such number of individuals to mistreatment, and we must that their return can be managed. not forget that some countries’ national airlines are state owned and operated. This goes to the point I made Mr Winnick: What makes some of us uneasy about when I intervened on the right hon. Member for Delyn: temporary exclusion orders—I was certainly uneasy there is a real difference between saying that the Government about them from the very beginning—is that excessive hold all the information, obtain it from the carriers powers are being given without the individual having through advance passenger information about individuals, legal redress. I hope that one does not have to say that carry out the matching, determine whether there is an one is against terrorism and loathes every form of individual for whom authority to carry should not be criminality, when we see what is happening with terrorism given and then give that information on that individual and what is happening in Australia. That does not alter to the carrier, and the Opposition’s proposal, whereby the fact that these powers should be subject to some information on a large number of individuals should be form of legal redress, and it is unfortunate that they will given to all carriers on the off chance that one of those not be. individuals will attempt to travel with one of those carriers. Mrs May: They are subject to a form of legal redress; That difference is important, and as I indicated in it is called judicial review. The debate has not been earlier remarks, what we have found in dealing with about whether there is some form of legal redress carriers is that they feel, as the Government do, that the available to individuals but about whether there should responsibility for getting that matching process right in be an automatic court process after a decision has been determining whether authority to carry should be given made by the Secretary of State. for an individual should rest with the Government. On requiring that notification from the carriers, the information Mr Winnick rose— 1233 Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill 15 DECEMBER 2014 1234

Mrs May: The hon. Gentleman is welcome to intervene The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. again. Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. Mr Winnick: The judicial process comes afterwards, Business without Debate and it can be very complex for the individual concerned. What I am saying is that if the Secretary of State is DELEGATED LEGISLATION going to take powers such as temporary exclusion orders, those powers should be subject to a court order, and the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): arguments should be put in court. There may be some With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 4 obvious restrictions for reasons that have been stated, to 7 together. but at least they are all part of living under the rule of Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing law. Order No. 118(6)),

Mrs May: I remind the hon. Gentleman that the CONSTITUTIONAL LAW power to remove a passport from an individual—the That the draft Scotland Act 1988 (River Tweed) Amendment royal prerogative power—is not subject to an automatic Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 20 October, be court process. This is more akin to that royal prerogative approved. exercise in the removal of a passport than it is to the PUBLIC PROCUREMENT imposition of the sort of measures that can be within the terrorism prevention and investigation measures. That the draft Single Source Contract Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on 29 October, be approved.

Jeremy Corbyn: Let us be clear: a judicial review is WATER INDUSTRY not an appeal; it is an examination of process. It is no That the draft Water Industry (Specified Infrastructure Projects) more and no less than that. To call it a judicial oversight (English Undertakers) (Amendment) Regulations 2014, which is really not correct. were laid before this House on 11 November, be approved.

Mrs May: The point is that there is a process in which FINANCIAL SERVICES AND MARKETS the courts consider whether the decision by the Secretary That the draft Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Carrying of State to exercise the temporary exclusion order was on Regulated Activities by Way of Business) (Amendment) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on 18 November, be reasonable. Let me come back to the point made by the approved.—(Mel Stride.) hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). If we look at the difference between a royal prerogative power Question agreed to. and the terrorism prevention and investigation measures, the restriction on an individual that can be imposed PETITION through a TPIM is far greater than that imposed through the exercise of the royal prerogative power. This power Access to Co-operative Ground (Scunthorpe) of the temporary exclusion order is more akin to the 9.55 pm royal prerogative power, which is why I believe that the proposals in the Bill are appropriate for the sort of Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): In presenting this measure that we are putting in place. petition, I would like to praise the excellent work of the As the Bill goes through its various stages in this Friends of Scunthorpe Fields and Open Spaces, particularly House and the other place, there will be further discussion Chris Jury, Rick Loudon and Stuart Green, in campaigning on the issues that have been raised by hon. Members to secure continued free access to Scunthorpe’s Co-operative today. What we are proposing is a new power, but it is ground and getting more than 1,500 people to show both necessary and proportionate. As I have said before, their concern by signing the petition. I would also like it will not render anyone stateless. It will ensure that to welcome North Lincolnshire council’s recent willingness those who have been fighting abroad and who want to to recognise the strength of feeling on the matter. come back to the United Kingdom do so in a managed The petition states: way and on our terms, and it is compliant with all our The Petition of residents of Scunthorpe County Constituency, domestic and international legal obligations. I invite all Declares their objection to North Lincolnshire Council’s decision those who have tabled amendments to withdraw them, to deny the general public access to the old Co-operative Ground and the Committee to agree that clauses 2 to 11 should adjacent to Central Park in Scunthorpe by erecting a fence stand part of the Bill. around the perimeter. Question put and agreed to. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage North Lincolnshire Council Clause 2 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. to remove the fencing erected around the old Co-operative Ground Clauses 3 to 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill. adjacent to Central Park and allow free public access to the area. To report progress and ask leave to sit again.—(Mel And the Petitioners remain, etc. Stride.) [P001412] 1235 15 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Development (North 1236 Somerset) Housing Development (North Somerset) and to ensure that the plans met the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House “full, objectively assessed needs for market and affordable housing in the housing market area”. do now adjourn.—(Mel Stride.) There was, however, one overwhelming problem in Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): the context of North Somerset. Planning on housing Dr Fox, I remind you that at 10 o’clock I will have to numbers, and perceived need, had been done in conjunction move the motion again. I am just warning you so that as with the local authorities in Bristol, Bath and North you are warming up in your speech you appreciate what East Somerset and South Gloucestershire. The other is going on. three authorities had their plans accepted in full, which meant that only North Somerset would have to have its 9.57 pm numbers reconsidered in line with the 2012 NPPF assumptions. Bizarrely, we are now being asked to meet Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): I am grateful what is termed “Bristol’s unmet need”—something that for your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker. Never having you, Madam Deputy Speaker, will understand from warmed up in less than two minutes, that should be your own constituency interest—although the adopted something of a challenge. Bristol city plan did not identify such a need. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate—a little So what are the implications of all this? First, we have earlier than expected tonight—what has increasingly found ourselves with a new inspector who has told our become a total fiasco around housing needs in north elected council that even an increased number of 17,000 Somerset. Let me begin by describing how we got to houses is too small, and that 20,000 would be a starting today’s absurd situation. As a result of the election of point for discussion. It is clear that the number is rising the coalition Government in 2010, greater decision making back towards the 26,000 target that was in the RSS powers were returned to local councils, so North Somerset specifically abolished by the Government. It seems that council was able to provide a revised regional spatial the bureaucrats always get their way, whatever local or strategy that reflected local needs, infrastructure and nationally elected politicians want in the names of objectives, which had a total target of 14,000 houses by those who cast their ballots. 2026. That was a dramatic reduction on the previous regional spatial strategy target of 26,750, which was Secondly, despite the fact that the error came from abandoned after the 2010 election and the defeat of the the planning inspector and not from the council, it is Labour Government. the council tax payers of North Somerset who have had to carry the burden in legal and other costs of well over North Somerset’s core strategy was put before the £100,000 so far. Why on earth is this not being carried planning inspector for public examination at the end of by the Planning Inspectorate, which is where the mistake 2011. The inspector determined that the plan was sound occurred, and therefore by central Government funding? and it was adopted in April 2012. However, the plan was subsequently challenged in the courts by the university Thirdly, and most importantly, the problem caused of Bristol, which wants to build on green-belt land in by the original Government inspector’s error is being my constituency. That is, in my view, an appalling compounded, as the delay to the adoption of the core testament to how much it values its own coffers and strategy is holding up progress on the detailed allocation how little it values the local environment. of sites for new housing, and creating uncertainty over the council’s five-year land supply. This means that In the High Court, the judge ruled that the Government local villages around North Somerset are being subjected inspector had failed to provide proper reasons in his to developers attempting to grab large greenfield housing report to support his conclusion that North Somerset’s sites in the hope of being able to receive planning 14,000 housing target was appropriate. Let me be clear—this permission on appeal. Villages such as Yatton, Claverham was a failure on the part of the inspector, not of North and Backwell in my constituency, and Congresbury Somerset. Had the inspector given adequate reasoning, and Churchill in the constituency of my hon. Friend North Somerset would now be required only to provide the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) are 14,000 houses. under attack from speculative development. That is clearly at odds with, and undermines, the Government’s 10 pm objective of a plan-led system. Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). As my hon. Friend the Minister can see from the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House maps I have supplied, North Somerset is not able to do now adjourn.—(Mel Stride.) accommodate the scale of housing without encroaching into flood zones, green belt, sites of special scientific Dr Fox: At this point in the story, we expected that interest or areas of outstanding natural beauty. I hope there would be merely a re-examination process where that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will the inspector would provide more detailed reasons for the assist us in defending those hugely sensitive areas. Even support of North Somerset’s core strategy. Unfortunately, a housing target of almost 21,000 dwellings—50% more the judgment did not provide a remit for the re-examination than had originally been determined to be necessary—will process. As a consequence of the inspector’s error, put enormous pressure on those lying outside the green North Somerset council had to submit the key parts of belt. The infrastructure in villages such as Yatton, where its plan, which had been remitted, for re-examination. the GP surgery and the local primary school are already Of course, by this time the context had changed significantly full, is utterly unsuitable for that level of growth. More with the publication of the national planning policy of the housing needs of Bristol need to be met in the framework in March 2012. The stated objective of city through redevelopment of brownfield sites, as is Government was now to accepted by all the authorities in the sub-region. Indeed, “boost significantly the supply of housing” North Somerset council has worked hard to secure the 1237 Housing Development (North 15 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Development (North 1238 Somerset) Somerset) [Dr Fox] advocacy of the views of his constituents and of North Somerset council. I know that my hon. Friend the south Bristol link road, which will open up access to Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) has south Bristol and facilitate regeneration there—the type made similar representations. of regeneration we all need. I regret that as a result of a legal challenge by Bristol So what do we want? We have already worked hard university, elements of North Somerset council’s plan with Bristol city council, South Gloucestershire council have had to be re-examined. I understand that this legal and Bath and North East Somerset council on their action successfully challenged the methodology for longer-term strategic housing needs as we start to work calculating existing housing need in North Somerset. together towards our strategic housing market assessment The issue will have been thoroughly considered by for the period to 2036. It seems utterly ludicrous to be North Somerset council and at the re-examination. The asked, in effect, to work out a largely arbitrary housing challenge was partially successful. The judge’s decision allocation while preparing that plan. The most logical handed down on 14 February 2013 said that the inspector, thing would be to put back in place the North Somerset in appraising the council’s housing requirement figure core strategy originally agreed by the Government inspector as 14,000, failed to give “adequate or intelligible reasons” while we assess, with our three partner authorities, the for his conclusion that the figure made sufficient allowance wider developmental needs of the region. for latent demand—that is, demand unrelated to the The Government must give these commitments: they creation of new jobs. must underline the importance of the plan-led system, Although the judgment found shortcomings with the ensure that the Planning Inspectorate withstands the inspector’s approach, the housing calculation methodology, pressures from developers, and allow democratically which ultimately led to the plan being thwarted, was elected councils to get their locally prepared plans in proposed by North Somerset council. I welcome the place. fact that the re-examination of elements of the North Somerset local plan appears to be nearing its final Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): I thank my right stages, but I recognise that my right hon. Friend the hon. Friend for calling this extremely important debate. Member for North Somerset, many of his constituents Large areas of the land he is talking about are green-belt and others have concerns about the approach to housing land. Just as people in south Gloucestershire and need coming through the re-examination process. Kingswood have happily protected the green belt, it My right hon. Friend will appreciate that my ministerial must be up to local residents to decide whether they role means that I cannot comment on the approach wish for building on the green belt; they should not have proposed by the North Somerset local plan, as it is some kind of mission creep from Bristol. Does he agree currently at examination. However, I hope that some of that the plans set out by Labour in the Lyons review the points I am going to make on the issues to which his that would allow Bristol to expand into areas of north specific concerns relate will none the less be useful in Somerset and south Gloucestershire are completely putting the matter in context and give some surety and unacceptable, and that we must preserve and protect the confidence. green belt wherever possible? As my right hon. Friend said, he has previously raised concerns directly with the Planning Inspectorate Dr Fox: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his about its handling of the initial examination of the support, as I am for that of my hon. Friends the plan. Again, propriety prevents me from commenting Members for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) on the conduct of independent inspectors, but in general and for Weston-super-Mare. terms their role is to ensure that plans are consistent I think we all speak with one voice when we say that with national policy and sound in other respects, and the Government must tonight reiterate that green-belt they cannot propose amendments to plans other than protection will not be weakened and that the Bristol where asked by the relevant council. green belt will be retained in its entirety to defend the For many years we have failed as a nation to deliver adjacent North Somerset countryside from development. sufficient housing to meet growing demand. That is why Additionally, it must be made clear that greenfield our policy rightly asks that authorities plan to meet development should come only as a last resort after all objectively assessed development needs in a way that is brownfield sites are exhausted. Finally, the infrastructure consistent with national policy as a whole. Localism that is needed to support new development, including means a choice over how the needs of communities are schools, GP surgeries and, where appropriate, roads best met, not whether they are met. must be provided by the developers; the cost must not I will return in a moment to the balance between fall disproportionately on local council tax payers. enabling sustainable housing and conserving the natural In North Somerset we are facing an expensive fiasco and historic environment, as it is of central importance that is undemocratic and producing unsustainable outcomes. to planning nationally and in North Somerset. We have been very patient, and our very competent council has been extremely co-operative. Now we need Dr Fox: Before my hon. Friend moves on from the answers. liability of the Planning Inspectorate and its role in this mess, I simply ask, for the sake of natural justice, how it 10.8 pm can possibly be defensible that a mistake made not by the local authority, but by the Government inspector, The Minister of State, Department for Communities can lead to the local authority and the local council and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I thank my taxpayers carrying the financial liability rather than the right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset person and the funding source from where the mistake (Dr Fox) for securing this debate and for his staunch emanated? 1239 Housing Development (North 15 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Development (North 1240 Somerset) Somerset) Brandon Lewis: My right hon. Friend rightly makes guard against inappropriate development. Let me stress the case on behalf of his local authority and I appreciate some of the examples to give confidence to my right hon. the points he makes. As I understand it, the core issue and hon. Friends. Those protections cover the green behind the judge’s decision related to the way in which belt, areas of outstanding natural beauty and areas the housing assessment was done. That is a matter for vulnerable to flooding, even in the absence of a local the local authority, but I will look into the specifics of plan. I know from the maps I have seen that those are what happened with the Planning Inspectorate. I will all areas that are important in Somerset, and particularly touch on that later, but perhaps I could also arrange to in North Somerset. meet my right hon. Friend to discuss the issue. Our guidance, published in March 2014, sets out Housing pressures are felt as equally, possibly more specifically that local plans should be acutely, in the west of England as they are elsewhere in “realistic about what can be achieved and when”, the country. National housing data indicate high demand for homes in North Somerset. I am also aware that including in relation to the constraints that infrastructure affordability is more acute in North Somerset than in might put on delivery. Similarly, guidance published in many other parts of the country. The evidence of North October of this year sets out the Government’s view Somerset council itself suggests housing need of close that unmet housing need is unlikely to outweigh the to 26,000 homes, and the regional spatial strategy noted harm to the green belt and other harm to an extent that a figure of 26,750. Both figures are some 6,000 above constitutes the “very special circumstances” required to those that the council is currently considering in its grant permission for inappropriate development in the examination. green belt. We made it clear in the guidance that the presence of constraints, such as the green belt, might limit the ability of an authority to meet its need. That is Dr Fox: I apologise, but that is simply not accurate. an entirely legitimate evidence base. The figure of 26,000 was in the regional spatial strategy that we were elected to abolish, and we did abolish it. Leaving aside the protections in national policy that Those numbers were not drawn up in terms of local always apply, we are all agreed on the importance of need in North Somerset. They were drawn up by getting plans in place as they set the framework in bureaucracy, which seems to be getting its way by the which decisions are taken locally, and we have returned back door. Neither the local authority nor central power in plan making to the local level wherever possible. Government, who abolished the strategy, wanted those As my right hon. Friend outlined, we revoked the numbers, but they keep coming back. Why is that? Is unpopular regional strategies. We have enabled communities democracy meaningless in this process? to introduce neighbourhood plans and have reformed local plan making so that inspectors may propose Brandon Lewis: The figure in the regional spatial modifications to a plan only if invited to do so by the strategy was 26,750. The supporting evidence provided council. by North Somerset council indicates that its housing Of course, much of North Somerset’s local plan, need may be as high as 25,950. Those are the figures it is including on protections for sensitive areas, has been in working on. Obviously, this is a two-stage process and place since April 2012. I also want to be clear that, as set the second stage will focus on what the council can out in the national planning policy framework, emerging deliver within environmental constraints. I will return in plans may start to carry weight in decision taking a moment to the point raised by my right hon. Friend, before they are formally adopted. I would take the but the council is looking at what it can deliver and I opportunity to welcome recent progress in the wider believe the figure it is currently considering is more like west of England towards getting local plans in place. In 20,000. particular, Bath and North East Somerset council adopted Our policy asks that authorities plan for their areas its plan on 10 July, and Mendip district council’s plan on the basis of the appropriate evidence, including was found sound on 2 October. Alongside already preparing a strategic housing market assessment to adopted plans in other areas, that recent progress has identify the scale and mix of housing likely to be needed put authorities and communities on the front foot in over the plan period. That evidence should inform local determining what is appropriate and where. plans to establish an aspirational but deliverable vision In general, we have recently seen a substantial uplift for the homes, jobs and infrastructure that are needed in plan making. Now 80% of authorities have published in areas. I stress that there are three parts to that. a local plan compared with 32% back in 2010 and 60% I know that my right hon. Friend and his constituents of councils now have adopted local plans compared rightly place a high value on the environment in North with just 17% when the Government came to power. Somerset, much of which is of exceptional quality. Let Neighbourhood planning, introduced in the Localism me make it absolutely clear that, as our planning guidance Act 2011, also gives communities real power to bring sets out and as we re-established in guidance just this forward their vision for the sustainable development of summer, establishing development needs is only the first their areas and has been eagerly taken up by communities. part of the plan-making process and should be More than 1,200 communities across the country, unconstrained by policy restrictions. covering more than 5 million people, are now developing Once an authority has objectively assessed needs it is neighbourhood plans. I welcome the fact that there are then important to look closely at constraints, whether four such groups of which we are aware at various they are related to the environment, landscape, or stages of the process in North Somerset. I understand infrastructure provision, to determine what level of that Backwell parish council’s neighbourhood plan has development it is appropriate to provide and where. passed examination, Long Ashton parish council’s work Policy is absolutely clear that need does not automatically is subject to planning consultation and Winscombe and equal supply and there are strong protections in place to Sandford parish council has applied for its proposed 1241 Housing Development (North 15 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Development (North 1242 Somerset) Somerset) [Brandon Lewis] to be in a ridiculous position. The plan was put forward in 2011, agreed by the inspector and adopted in 2012, area to be designated as a neighbourhood plan area. I yet here we are at the end of 2014. If I am not mistaken, would very much encourage those organisations to at the end of 2015, we will begin the planning period in progress with their plan-making work. which we will look at housing allocation through to We recognise that legal challenge can in some cases 2036. It would be the height of absurdity if we were one unnecessarily delay planning. That is why we have of only four councils in the sub-region to be asked not introduced a raft of reforms to ensure efficiency in the only to look at our 2026 housing allocation, but to start legal handling of planning matters to complement our the process all over again at the end of next year and wider reforms improving the efficiency and speed of the look at the 2036 allocation. Surely this is a complete system. The reforms include reducing the window in waste of public resources, as well as being utterly contrary which claims for judicial review can be made against to what my hon. Friend the Minister says is the planning decisions, introducing a permission stage into Government’s aim, which is to encourage greater localism. the statutory review of plan making to weed out unmeritorious challenges at an early stage and establishing Brandon Lewis: My right hon. Friend is absolutely a specialist planning court within the High Court to right that we want to encourage localism. That is why speed up the determination of challenges to planning we want the decisions to be made locally. I appreciate and infrastructure schemes. the frustration that the legal process has brought into this case. I know that he appreciates that I am limited in I encourage all Members to focus on the positive what I can say about any specific case, particularly progress that has been made recently in respect of while it is going through examination. However, I am North Somerset’s local plan at examination and to look happy to discuss this issue with my right hon. and hon. towards getting plans in place. I appreciate that my Friends in greater detail at an appropriate point and to right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset and write to them to outline the detail behind their queries, my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare particularly in respect of the Planning Inspectorate and have issues with how we got to where we are. the legal situation, so that I cover any issues that I have been unable to address this evening. Dr Fox: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I am conscious that my hon. Friend the Question put and agreed to. Member for Weston-super-Mare, as a member of the Government Whips Office, is unable to make his voice 10.21 pm heard, so perhaps I may speak for both of us. We seem House adjourned. 407WH 15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 408WH

consisted of food that she had been competent at eating Westminster Hall for several months previously, which added further to her parents’ distress. Monday 15 December 2014 On further investigation by the police, a few things became apparent. The nursery had used various first aid companies for their training, many of which no [MR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE in the Chair] longer exist. Furthermore, the majority of staff were trained in first aid at work, which of course is not the BACKBENCH BUSINESS same as paediatric first aid. However, two members of staff were trained in paediatric first aid, but we will see Paediatric First Aid later why I believe that that was not effective enough and why we would like a change in legislation. 4.30 pm Millie was not given full choking treatment from any member of staff; she received only the bare minimum of Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): I beg to move, treatment, which consisted of a few slaps to the back. That this House has considered the e-petition relating to the Sadly, Millie’s parents have had to view CCTV coverage Millie’s Trust campaign to train all nursery nurses in paediatric from outside the nursery on that tragic day, which first aid. showed many people running around, including the Mr Chope, it is a great pleasure to conduct this supervisor and the two members of staff who were debate under your chairmanship. It is a sombre subject trained in paediatric first aid. that we are addressing this afternoon, and it is a difficult address for me to give, knowing the circumstances, and Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The hon. the family, Joanne and Dan Thompson, who are here Gentleman is making a very moving case. Does he agree with us today to listen to our proceedings. In parts, it that it is surprising, bearing in mind all the other might also be a difficult debate for Members to listen to. requirements and regulation around child care, that this Tragically, Millie Thompson passed away aged just requirement is not just part and parcel of it? As my hon. nine months after a choking incident at a nursery Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert school in my constituency of Cheadle. Following Millie’s Flello) suggested, most of us would have assumed before tragic death in October 2012, her parents, Dan and this incident was highlighted that that was the case, and Joanne Thompson, set up a charity called Millie’s Trust, that trained people would be there and able to see the as a legacy in Millie’s memory. I am delighted that they signs if such a tragedy was happening. are able to be here today to witness our debate. This Backbench Business debate is the next step for Mark Hunter: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his the Thompsons’ campaign, which has one simple aim: contribution and, yes, I totally agree. As the previous that all nursery and pre-school staff receive paediatric intervention by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent first aid training. South (Robert Flello) also suggested, most parents—I am a parent myself, although my children are now Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I am grown up—would assume when they are taking their grateful to the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate, children to a nursery that has all the relevant certification and I am particularly grateful to the family, who are and regulation that the staff there will be adequately with us today. However, it is almost amazing that this trained, and I intend to emphasise that point later. requirement is not already law and on the statute books. The fact that there so many Members here from across Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I the House should perhaps send a message to the Minister: used to chair the Children, Schools and Families Committee “Let’s get this on the statute books really quickly.” and I remember pushing Ofsted on this issue; I also represent Huddersfield where the National Day Nurseries Mark Hunter: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Association is based. This case has been a wake-up call contribution and I could not agree with him more. I am to everyone that paediatric care in an emergency is delighted that so many hon. Members from across the totally different from first aid and needs specific training. spectrum in the House of Commons have been able to I hope that this positive intervention from parents who find time to be here today, when I know that—as ever in are grieving—they are being positive and doing something this place—there are plenty of other important issues about this issue—is an example to all of us to make being debated at the same time. these changes quickly. Millie Thompson was just nine months old when her parents, Joanne and Dan, left her in the care of a Mark Hunter: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his nursery in Cheadle Hulme. Her parents had done what intervention. Again, I could not agree more. I think that every parent does when placing a child in an educational everybody, once they have focused on the issue, starts to establishment, and as far as they were concerned they appreciate that there is a significant difference between had chosen the very best place for their daughter because having a general qualification in first aid and having a the establishment had an outstanding Ofsted rating in qualification in paediatric first aid, which by the very early 2012. nature of the fact that it involves dealing with small Millie Thompson passed away on just her third day at children—in this case, Millie was only nine months nursery. The Thompsons received a phone call stating old—is rather more specialist. However, parents would that Millie was having problems breathing and when naturally assume—I think we all would—that if they Millie’s mum arrived at hospital, sadly Millie had already are placing their child in a nursery, the nursery would be passed away. Millie had choked on her lunch, which covered. 409WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 410WH

[Mark Hunter] Lie the baby face down along your forearm or thigh, with their head low. Support their head. The hon. Gentleman is also right to say that tribute Give up to five firm slaps to the baby’s back between the must be paid to the Thompsons; after such a terribly shoulder blades with the heel of your hand. (The heel is between tragic experience, they have made something positive the palm of your hand and your wrist.) through Millie’s Trust, which is creating a legacy in Stop after each slap to check if the blockage has cleared. Look Millie’s memory. I will say more about that legacy later. inside the baby’s mouth and remove any obvious blockage. Do not poke your fingers into the baby’s mouth unless you can see I will go back to the point I was making about the and reach the blockage. You may push it further in. CCTV coverage. Millie’s parents have stated that it was obvious from that footage that when Millie was being If the airway is still blocked, give up to five chest thrusts. taken out to the ambulance she was “like a rag doll” Stop after each thrust to check if the blockage has cleared. and they believe that at that point she should have been If the baby’s airway is still blocked after three cycles of back receiving CPR. slaps and chest thrusts, you should: dial 999 for an ambulance immediately. Do not leave the baby—take him or her with you to the phone; continue with the cycles of back slaps and chest Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I am thrusts until help arrives. grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, and of course he is right to highlight these issues here in the In babies under one year old”— Palace of Westminster today. However, this tragic incident remember that Millie was under one year old— not only highlights the failures in the nursery system—that “chest thrusts are used in an emergency to clear a blockage from is, the lack of paediatric first aid training—but the fact their airway. Important: do not use abdominal thrusts with babies that until recently the ambulance services were not under one year old. compelled to have the appropriate paediatric equipment Lie the baby along your forearm on their back, with their head in their ambulances. If one good thing has come out of low. Support their back and head. the Millie’s Trust campaign, it is that the North West Give up to five chest thrusts. Using two fingers, push inwards Ambulance Service has now pledged to ensure that all and upwards (towards the head) against the baby’s breastbone, its ambulances have the appropriate paediatric equipment. one finger’s breadth below the nipple line. Check if the blockage has cleared after each thrust, by looking Mark Hunter: Again, I thank the hon. Gentleman for inside the baby’s mouth and removing any obvious blockage.” his intervention and he is absolutely right. I will come Again, on to the point about how the North West Ambulance “Do not poke your fingers into the baby’s mouth unless you Service has responded to this case in the positive way can see and reach the blockage as you may push it further in.” that he has indicated. This is standard choking advice and every paediatric On the day in question, Millie was being fed by the first aid course teaches these guidelines, which means supervisor of the nursery, who had worked in child care that the staff involved that day should have given a for some 20 years; she was an experienced person. Yet, statement as I just stated it. when this tragic incident happened, Millie received no treatment from the supervisor, because she was not Alistair Burt (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): We trained in paediatric first aid. Instead, she handed Millie are all moved by the hon. Gentleman’s description of to another member of staff. what has happened, and impressed that he has put on After Millie had received the slaps to her back, she the record exactly what should be done. I am the was left in the arms of someone who was trained in first grandfather of a seven-year-old child, and we all go aid at work, not paediatric first aid. That should not through these agonies about what we would do. Has he have been the case. Sadly, of the two paediatric first-aiders made any estimate of the amount of time and difficulty at the nursery, one chose not to be involved and went to there would be in incorporating this work in a look after the other children while the second administered straightforward, standard course for paediatric care the back slaps and then left the building, through the workers, so that we can see just how little time would nursery grounds, and went to the main road to wait for need to be spent to make sure that all those working in the ambulance. This should never have happened. The nurseries have that sort of information available to paediatric-trained first-aider should not have left Millie’s them, and have practice doing what he has stated needs side until the paramedics arrived. to be done, should there be a choking incident involving I will outline the treatment that Millie should have ababy? received and what should have happened at that point in time. Millie, as I said, received a few back slaps and Mark Hunter: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s was then held in a non-paediatric-trained first aider’s intervention. The Millie’s Trust campaign has done an arms for around 10 minutes. On arrival, the paramedics awful lot of work in this regard and is satisfied, I think, immediately began standard choking treatment for a as most hon. Members who have considered the issue baby. By this point, it was tragically too late and Millie’s would be, that this can be done at no great cost. We heart had stopped beating. hope that the Minister will make it clear that the In a statement from the nursery, it was stated that one Government are serious about their intention to address of the untrained staff members finger-swept Millie’s the subject. As other hon. Members have already said, mouth, which all guidelines and all paediatric first aid with the benefit of hindsight, there is a loophole in the courses state is the wrong thing to do. The treatment for regulation that needs to be addressed urgently. a choking baby, as outlined on the NHS Choices website, is as follows: Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): I congratulate the “A baby who is choking will be distressed and may be unable to hon. Gentleman on securing this very important debate cry, cough or breathe. and congratulate Millie’s Trust on its campaigning work 411WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 412WH on this issue. Was any member of staff on the premises commercial organisations, such as nurseries. Again, as that day trained in paediatric first aid? If there was, hon. Members can imagine, as a consequence of this what happened? case and other tragic cases there has been a great deal of interest in that. However, it is pertinent to say that Mark Hunter: Yes, there was. I mentioned just a few parents themselves might also want to make themselves moments ago that, of the two paediatric first-aiders aware of the correct practices and procedures, should who were at the school at the time, one chose not to be such unfortunate circumstances come about. involved, by going to look after the other children in the nursery, while the second member of staff with a Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate my qualification did carry out the back slaps, but then left hon. Friend on securing this important debate, and the baby and went via the nursery grounds on to the congratulate Millie’s Trust on highlighting awareness of main road to wait for the ambulance to arrive. So the this issue. I met a member of the family at Little child was actually left without the continual support of Blossoms nursery in Barrowford in my constituency at a somebody qualified in paediatric first aid, which of fund-raiser for Millie’s Trust. I echo what my right hon. course the guidelines clearly stipulate. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) has said. When I was talking to people and raising money Ann Coffey: Would not the member of staff trained for Millie’s Trust, it was providing people with the free in paediatric first aid have appreciated the seriousness pocket face shields that can be put on a key ring. Those of the situation? of us who are qualified and trained in delivering CPR always have a face shield on us in case we come across a Mark Hunter: The only answer I can give is that one choking incident that has developed into something would like to think so. I think any parent would have where CPR needs to be given. assumed that to be the case. However, I will come on to that and to what the coroner said in this regard as well. Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD) rose— Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I commend my hon. Friend for bringing this debate to the Chamber. It Mark Hunter: I give way to the chair of the all-party is a truly tragic story. Does he agree that, although this group on first aid. is always a serious issue, as more couples go back to work and ever more people are using child care, the Sir Bob Russell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for gravity of this situation increases? One child lost is one securing this debate and for the manner in which he has too many, but with more people using child care they spoken. I follow on from the previous two interventions. require more reassurance. Sadly, I am a parent who has walked this way, albeit at a different age and in different circumstances. We need to Mark Hunter: I could not agree more. That is one reinforce the need for first aid right across society. In reason why it is long overdue for the Government to each occupation and discipline, account needs to be take this issue seriously and why they should make taken of the specialist medical needs. First aid in schools, provision for a change in the regulations that will require which I have been banging on about ever since I became this to happen in future. Hon. Members will be shocked a Member of Parliament, needs to be brought in, but to hear that in some respects the capacity of the regulations the specialist needs of occupations need to be bolted on to help in a situation such as this has, in my view, been to that. reduced; they have been weakened rather than strengthened. I am sure that that is the result of the law of unintended Mark Hunter: My hon. Friend’s contribution was, as consequences, but that is what has happened and it will ever, clear and concise. It gave a clear indication of his be a cause of great concern to all of us. experience personally and as the chair of the all-party group on first aid. Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): I was a divisional To move on for a moment to the current guidelines, surgeon with St John Ambulance and I also lectured in the Department for Education published its new statutory emergency medicine. The hon. Gentleman makes a framework for the early years foundation stage in March. good, specific case about what happens in nurseries, but It became effective in September. Paragraph 3.25 of very many more people are parents than nursery workers. section 3, which is on the safeguarding and welfare Does it not seem absurd that, at the beginning of the requirements of early years providers, states: 21st century, we spend so much money both on the National Health Service and on education, yet future “At least one person who has a current paediatric first aid parents can go through both systems without ever certificate must be on the premises and available at all times when children are present, and must accompany children on outings. learning some of the most basic life-saving skills, which Childminders, and any assistant who might be in sole charge of are readily available—they would not dream of not the children for any period of time, must hold a current paediatric teaching their children to swim—but are not taught first aid certificate. Paediatric first aid training must be relevant nearly widely enough in our society? for workers caring for young children and where relevant, babies. Providers should take into account the number of children, staff Mark Hunter: The right hon. Gentleman makes a and layout of premises to ensure that a paediatric first aider is pertinent point. In fact, Millie’s Trust—the legacy set able to respond to emergencies quickly.” up in the child’s memory—provides paediatric first aid What the Thompsons, Millie’s Trust supporters, I and training free of charge to interested parents. As hon. countless other Members are asking is: why stop at one Members can imagine, a great number of interested person? Does that not leave a nursery open to the parents have been stepping up, wanting to take advantage possibility of another such tragedy? What happens if of that. The training courses are also provided at cost to the first-aider is off ill, called away or panics? 413WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 414WH

Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Children’s day Mr Sheerman: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely nurseries are places where all sorts of bugs go round. right about regulation, but regulation will not do Often the level of sickness absence is a lot higher than in everything—it never will. What I discern in the tragic other places of work. Is it not right, therefore, that more circumstances of Millie’s death is panic. I believe that people are trained so that if paediatric first-aiders are people were running around and did not know what to absent because of sickness, someone else can take up do. I am sure that Millie’s parents, being so passionate, the reins? have already thought of this, but what we need are not Baker days, but Millie’s days, where every three months Mark Hunter: That is indeed the case I am advocating, there is training for all the staff. That training will so I can only agree with the hon. Gentleman’s comment. trickle down fast if the culture is changed, and then If the trained first-aider is off ill or has been called away there will not be the panic that we saw. urgently or even, dare I say, panics when presented with a choking child, who is able, under the current guidelines, Mark Hunter: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely to step in and provide the assistance that could save a right. He was one of the Members who referred to the child’s life? Furthermore, I am concerned that the rising number of children in nursery schools, which is Department is heading in the wrong direction on this why this debate is particularly pertinent and topical. issue. The new update to the framework, which came More and more people are looking to avail themselves into effect in September, has placed the onus on the of the opportunity to place their children in nurseries. child care facility to decide how many staff need to be The Department for Education’s child care and early trained. It is now up to the individual organisation; years providers survey in 2013, which was published in there is no national regulation on that. No ratio on September, revealed that the number of registered places first-aiders to children on site has been given or suggested in full day care settings rose by 10% between 2011 and by the Department. That is a weaker position than we 2013. Due to the introduction of funded provision for had previously, when the framework clarified that disadvantaged two-years-olds, there was a whacking 72% increase between 2011 and 2013 in the number of “first aid training must be local authority approved and be two-year-olds attending sessional settings in the 30% relevant for workers caring for young children”. most deprived areas. This debate is on a huge issue that On first aid training providers, it is my view and that potentially affects an awful lot of people. of the campaign that straightforward guidelines should As demand increases, supply rises to meet that demand. be in place on who can administer paediatric first aid As new nursery places are provided, we have a duty to training and to what level. Many child care providers do ensure that all children are safe and that all staff are not realise that a nursery using a first aid training well trained. None of us here will need reminding that company that is not regulated must carry out its own children younger than one are extremely vulnerable and due diligence. Would it not be best if everyone obtained need constant care and attention. In the rush for nursery a regulated first aid qualification accredited by an Ofqual- places and with the subsequent waiting lists, I firmly recognised awarding organisation, so that we can make believe that parents are making an assumption that all it easier for parents to have confidence when placing nursery staff are adequately trained in how to provide their loved ones in the care of others? the appropriate paediatric first aid, but we now know that that is sadly not always the case. Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): The hon. As an aside, hon. Members may be interested to Gentleman is making an important and powerful case. know that I recently inquired about the provision of Does he agree that as part of that training, it is essential training here in Westminster, at Parliament’s nursery. that people are given opportunities to practise on dummies? The answer is that all relevant staff are trained in As we might have seen with that qualified person in the paediatric first aid. If it is good enough for the children nursery, sometimes people faced with these situations, of Members and House staff, it ought to be good without having practised on dummies, panic. enough for every child attending nursery anywhere in the country. Mark Hunter: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. She raises an issue that I hope to address in the rest of my Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): speech. I am sure that we would all agree that parents I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for should be able to walk into a nursery and see “Level 3 securing the debate. As is evidenced by the attendance Paediatric First Aid” on a certificate and be satisfied today, the campaign has generated huge interest— that the nursery has followed platinum-standard guidelines. particularly, for understandable reasons, in Greater I will move on to why that is particularly relevant, as a Manchester. I was aware of the case, but not of the couple of Members mentioned earlier. policy background, which the hon. Gentleman has described. I simply want to indicate my support for the Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): A few moments campaign and for the hon. Gentleman’s speech. ago, the hon. Gentleman said that the current guidelines had in effect watered down the previous position. Has Mark Hunter: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his he been able to ascertain from Ministers before the intervention. I am sure that everyone involved in the debate why that is the case? What is the thinking behind Millie’s Trust campaign will be heartened by the interest that dilution of the position when this terrible tragedy shown by hon. Members from right across the House, occurred? including the hon. Gentleman. During the inquest into Millie Thompson’s death in Mark Hunter: The short answer to the hon. Gentleman’s December 2013, the coroner, John Pollard, said: question is no, we have not been able to ascertain that, “It is of national importance that the legislation surrounding but I hope the Minister will address that in his response. nurseries regarding paediatric first aid is reviewed.” 415WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 416WH

He also recommended that the North West Ambulance Mark Hunter: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Service review some of its policies, including what paediatric contribution. He is quite right. As I progress through equipment each ambulance should carry. I am pleased my speech, I will be discussing the experience in Ireland to report that, since the inquest, it has successfully and elsewhere. The Irish Government are indeed making carried out that review. The coroner has said that the moves towards ensuring that such regulations are in issue is of national importance and called for the policies place. That is credit to the Thompsons, who, at the around paediatric first aid treatment in nurseries to be request of the Irish Government, have had two or three reviewed, so I hope that the Minister will take that on meetings with officials over there to see how that might board. best be done. The North West Ambulance Service has gone further Millie’s parents have taken it upon themselves to use by introducing a minimum requirement list of paediatric the success of the charity, combined with the equipment that every ambulance must now carry. The recommendations of Mr Pollard, to start an awareness service’s urgent review and subsequent changes have campaign about the current legislation. I turn to what ensured that any errors made in how it reacted to the the Thompsons and their campaign seek to achieve. 999 call regarding Millie Thompson will not be repeated. The first thing to say is that they do not stand alone. It has taken seriously what the coroner advised, and Thousands of people from my Cheadle constituency, Millie’s death has had a positive outcome that will help from Stockport, from Greater Manchester and from all other children in future. We acknowledge that the around the UK have rallied to their side to sign their Department for Education deals with a wider remit e-petition, which now has more than 102,000 signatures. than that of the North West Ambulance Service, but it For the benefit of hon. Members, I shall read out the is disappointing that we have seen action from the petition: ambulance service on the coroner’s recommendations, “Following the death of Millie Thompson and the coroner’s but none as yet—although we live in hope—from the suggestion in December 2013 that ALL nursery nurses should be Government. trained, Millie’s parents are now campaigning to have it made law Following Millie’s tragic passing, the Thompsons that everyone working in a nursery MUST be trained in Paediatric decided to set up a charity to provide paediatric first aid First Aid. training to anyone who wants to learn. They have Please support and sign this petition in memory of Millie and successfully built what is now a national charity in just for the future safety of your children.” two years. It provides free training to parents and The campaign’s objectives are simple and straightforward, hugely discounted qualifications to anyone who needs and I do not think that anyone here would demur from paediatric first aid training, which is what Ofsted requests. the idea that such important issues need addressing Over the past two years, the charity has trained about now. 7,000 people, many of whom are nursery nurses. Millie’s Trust is a registered centre through Qualsafe, which is Regarding the awareness campaign, it has become an Ofqual-recognised awarding body organisation. extremely apparent to Millie’s Trust that the majority of people, including parents and child care workers, do not Sir Bob Russell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for know about the current legislation—just as Millie’s allowing me to speak for a second time and for making parents did not know about it until this tragedy struck that point. Millie’s Trust is a bona fide, regulated, them. Most parents presume that when they put their registered charity. Did the coroner make any comment child in the care of a nursery, they are in the safest about the training competence of whoever trained the possible place. In fact, if disaster strikes in a situation first aiders? I was alarmed when my hon. Friend said such as Millie’s, the reality is that many staff would not earlier that unregulated people may be out there providing know how to help a child who was choking, struggling first aid training; they may not be competent to do the to breathe or needing CPR. Is that really protecting our job that they tell people they are able to do. children as they should be protected? Is that really what parents should expect when they leave a child in someone’s Mark Hunter: The coroner made a wide-ranging care, often when paying high costs for the privilege? series of points in his response. I do not have his report Health and safety is up to date in every other aspect to hand, but I am happy to ensure that my hon. Friend, in the UK, so why has the simplest safety for children as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on been forgotten about? Why has the legislation been first aid, gets to see a copy. It is fair to say that the allowed to fall so far behind modern times? If legislation coroner addressed the wider concerns and the relevance was not there to be changed, we would still be placing to any future measures that may need to be taken. children in cars without child seats and we would not be wearing seatbelts. It is time that this legislation was Sir Alan Meale (Mansfield) (Lab): I am grateful to brought into the 21st century. the hon. Gentleman for securing the debate. Like the In June, the Thompsons and I met the Minister then hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), I sadly responsible for this area, the Under-Secretary of State lost a young member of my family in my earlier life, so I for Education, my hon. Friend for Crewe and Nantwich know what the experience is like. (Mr Timpson). We had a helpful meeting. The Minister I want to stress that the issue is not limited to England. listened to the Thompsons’ case and told us about the People in Ireland are currently trying to get a Bill new requirements in the statutory framework that came through that would do exactly what the hon. Gentleman into force in September. The Thompsons and I want the is supporting here today. We must ensure, because of requirements to go further and we look forward to how we deal with education and health matters in this meeting the Minister who will reply today at the conclusion great nation of ours, that the same recommendations of the debate. I should report to hon. Members that the are made in Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland. Minister has indicated his willingness so to do. 417WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 418WH

[Mark Hunter] In Minnesota, in the United States, in June 2010 at a child care centre a young girl called Hannah Kozita, I am struggling to understand the reticence about aged only four, passed away after choking on a grape. moving to a requirement for all nursery staff to be Within a year, the state had seen fit to pass what is trained in paediatric first aid. Under the Thompsons, commonly referred to as Hannah’s law. One year after Millie’s Trust has been a revelation, providing paediatric that tragedy, therefore, that particular state had introduced first aid training as cheaply as possible and making it a new law including a new requirement from May 2011 available to people whatever their financial situation. for all teachers and assistant teachers in child care The Thompsons do not want any other parent to go centres to have CPR training, including, specifically, through the tragedy that befell them. I sincerely hope CPR for children and infants. The law also required at that I will not do them a disservice by saying that if they least one trained staff member to be present whenever a can set up a charity and begin providing the necessary child was on a school trip, and for training to be training to thousands so rapidly, why can the Government completed within 90 days of the law being passed. What not do the same, or at least make it a legal requirement? is good enough for Minnesota, ought to be good enough In England, there is no mandatory requirement for for us in the UK. anyone on a child care course to achieve a qualification The hon. Member for Mansfield (Sir Alan Meale) in a paediatric first aid course, whether a national referred earlier to circumstances in Ireland. The Thompsons vocational qualification or an award from the Council have been warmly received in the Republic of Ireland. for Awards in Care, Health and Education. In the They have made a number of visits there, at the request National Nursery Examination Board course that child of the Irish Government, to talk about what ought to carers took during the 1990s, first aid was a requirement. be done. Earlier this month, Millie’s Trust was invited When the course became an NVQ or a CACHE award, to Ireland by Denis Naughten, TD, the Member for the that requirement was taken out. Will the Minister address Roscommon, South Leitrim constituency, following an that concern as well? At the meeting with the then earlier visit to Ireland in April. During their most recent Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and visit, the Thompsons received vital support from Senator Nantwich, the Thompsons asked him who made the Jillian van Turnhout, who is also a successful children’s decision to remove the first aid part of the course and rights activist. why—a fairly simple and straightforward question. The Mr and Mrs Thompson presented to TDs and Senators Minister could not give an answer off the top of his in Leinster house in Dublin to make them aware of the head, and Mr and Mrs Thompson were told that his state of existing legislation. The Thompsons met with Department would research the matter and contact an extremely positive reaction. The TDs and Senators them with the findings. It saddens me to report that even received a mini-training session, which they all some six months later they are still waiting for an accepted was valuable knowledge, despite the small answer to that simple and straightforward question. amount of time available. Following the presentation, a We are not asking the Government to fund the courses meeting was set up with Ireland’s Minister for Children, for nursery establishments. The majority of nurseries Dr James Reilly. I am pleased to report that the outcome are private and are run as a business, for profit. We of that meeting was also extremely positive. Dr Reilly simply want the regulations changed to make it clear was surprised to hear how Millie had received only “a that, as a business, nurseries have to build paediatric few back slaps”. He went on to offer his own experience first aid training for their staff into their annual business of watching a valuable member of his staff freezing costs. when having to deal with working with a child in an injection scenario, even though she was extremely competent I want to touch briefly on precedents elsewhere. when dealing with adults. That goes back to the point For example, in Australia the legislation includes made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro regulation 136(3): and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) about the understandable “The approved provider of a family day care service must reaction of some to panic in such distressing circumstances. ensure that each family day care educator and family day care educator assistant engaged by or registered with the service— Dr Reilly’s Department has since been in touch with Denis Naughten, TD, to ask Millie’s Trust to provide (a) holds a current approved first aid qualification; and research information on legislation in other countries to (b) has undertaken current approved anaphylaxis management see how it was worded when the law was updated. That training; and Department has no problem with encompassing what (c) has undertaken current approved emergency asthma Millie’s Trust is seeking to have done. That is extremely management training.” positive support as a consequence of the awareness that Each family day care educator and educator assistant Millie’s Trust has created not only in the UK, but must hold all three qualifications. further afield. In conclusion, I will revisit one or two key aspects of Mr Sheerman: Does that cover childminders? what I have said. The passing of Millie Thompson in a local nursery school was a tragic accident. The Mark Hunter: The hon. Gentleman asks his question circumstances, choking, can happen to any infant at from a sedentary position, but I believe so. any mealtime in any child care provider or nursery school within the UK, or even at home. We can do Mr Sheerman: I am sorry. A lot of children in this nothing about such instances, but we can ensure that country are with childminders in small groups. those responsible for responding are as well trained as possible. Mark Hunter: I am sure that we can check that out The requirement for only one member of staff to be afterwards. I am happy to get back to the hon. Gentleman trained in paediatric first aid is simply not sufficient; it on that. does not allow for illness, for large numbers of children 419WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 420WH or for the trained member of staff panicking when train someone in a car factory on how to deal with faced with a genuine emergency. My contention and an infant who is choking, but a person working in a that of the Thompsons and everyone behind Millie’s nursery needs to know all about dealing with whatever Trust is that the majority of parents assume that most calamity might occur to a young person there. pre-school staff will have paediatric first aid training. One point my hon. Friend mentioned has caused me The best response to that mistake is to ensure that all great concern. Until today I had simply assumed that staff are adequately trained. people who taught first aid were qualified up to a The number of children in nursery schools is going required standard, meaning that they were registered up. We must ensure that they are all safe, not only the and regulated to give first aid and first aid training. We ones who go to the most diligent child care providers. know that St John Ambulance and the Red Cross are More than 100,000 people have signed the Thompsons’ qualified first aid organisations, but I am aware of other e-petition calling for the Government to introduce universal organisations, companies, groups of friends or whoever, paediatric first aid training. Parents throughout the who come together to provide first aid cover at events at country want to see that change implemented. In Australia, a much lower rate than those two charities. I do not in the state of Minnesota and, as looks increasingly know how qualified those people are. likely, in the Republic of Ireland, the requirement for That is a serious issue that the Government need to nursery staff to have paediatric first aid training is being look at and investigate. Who is providing first aid at implemented easily and straightforwardly. The UK must events and how qualified are those first-aiders? That is follow suit. why I asked my hon. Friend whether the coroner had The last line of the Thompsons’ e-petition reads: made any comment about who trained the two members “Please support and sign this petition in memory of Millie and of staff at the nursery who, on the day in question, fell for the future safety of your children.” short of what was required. I do not know this, but it That last part sums up our hope for the campaign in the may well be that they had not been fully trained by future. It is not about concerns to do with new red tape, qualified trainers. That is a huge area that the Government additional bureaucracy or even cost; it is about the need to look at, although it is probably more an issue future safety of all UK children, and it is about doing for the Department of Health than for the Department our utmost to ensure that a tragedy such as Millie’s for Education. death is never, I hope, repeated. I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this very moving debate. I thank hon. Members who have intervened. Specific thanks must go to Millie’s parents, who have 5.20 pm devoted many months now to a campaign that has Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I will be brief, come quite quickly into the Houses of Parliament. We because my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mark owe it to them to take the matter forward. Hunter) has presented his case comprehensively; the interventions he took and his responses to them have 5.24 pm dealt with virtually every aspect of the debate. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I pay tribute to I will address the wider need for first aid. I was my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter)— shocked to hear that the element of first aid required not just for securing the debate, but for his calm and under the previous regulations for child care was withdrawn. measured argument. We need an explanation of why, bearing in mind that This debate marks yet another milestone in democracy. many of us have been pushing for first aid to be made A while back, the tragic death of a nine-month-old part of the national curriculum. I brought forward a child would not have led to a giant petition, signed by Bill in the previous Parliament on that issue, and have over 100,000 people, being considered by Parliament, raised it at regular intervals at Education questions; with the chance perhaps to change the law. Although most recently, I raised it with the Secretary of State for that would not have happened but for changes in Health when he made a statement on greater investment parliamentary procedure, it is above all the result of the in the NHS a few weeks ago. A population trained in remarkable reaction and leadership shown by Millie’s first aid would bring massive financial savings, and parents, the Thompsons. Joanne is motivated by the would save several thousand lives a year—think of purest motive that any of us parents could hope for—to those in need of attention after a heart attack or a road make something positive out of profound tragedy, and crash. light a candle in the darkness. Today’s debate is specifically about young children Although many of us can think of other recent and infants. We have heard a catalogue of things that examples of constituents campaigning successfully on went wrong. I pay tribute to Millie’s parents for the issues dear to their hearts, today’s starting point must diligent way in which they have turned a personal be to recognise both the very sad circumstances of tragedy into a hope that we can take things forward, so Millie’s death and the positive reaction of Joanne and that no other parents—or grandparents, uncles, aunts her husband afterwards in founding their charity. The or family friends—will experience such a tragedy in the heart of today’s debate is whether it should be mandatory future. in law for everyone working at nurseries to be given I repeat the point I made in an intervention: if we paediatric first aid training, or whether the law should start with five-year-olds knowing about nose bleeds—both stay where it was when the Childcare Act 2006 was theirs and other people’s—by the time they leave school, brought in, under which it is mandatory that someone they will be trained in life-saving techniques for the rest on the premises is trained, but not everyone. of their lives. On top of that, we then need to bolt on, My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob occupation by occupation, the specific first aid requirements Russell) made a case for first aid training for every that each profession needs. Clearly we do not need to individual in the United Kingdom. He has a point: it is 421WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 422WH

[Richard Graham] Today’s debate is an important step in recognising what an individual has done on behalf of her own child right that we should all go on a course. It is one of the and her own family situation, but it has much wider best things I have ever done—I did so fairly recently, applicability across the land to all of us who are parents and no doubt far too late in life. However, that does not and to everyone who puts their children, with trust, into necessarily mean that to do so should be mandatory, a nursery school. My hon. Friend the Member for thereby having rules, regulations and punishments attached Cheadle made a strong case that is the stronger for to it—that people should be fined or there should be having been measured and reasonable. I hope that the some other punishment for not going on a first aid Minister—a reasonable man and a young father to course. I am not sure that today is the moment for a boot—will be able to give us some reassurance about discussion of whether we should legislate that everybody the national review as quickly as possible. I suspect that should go on a course. all of us here today hope that that review will lead to mandatory provision of paediatric first aid. Sir Bob Russell: I should point out to my hon. Friend that I was not saying that there should be first aid training for every person, but that it should be part of 5.31 pm the school curriculum. Clearly, over three generations Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): It is a pleasure, everybody in the country would then be a trained first Mr Chope, to serve under your chairmanship. I am aider; others could—this is the example he has set grateful for the opportunity to speak on behalf of Her himself—go voluntarily for training. However, if parents Majesty’s Opposition in this debate, but I do not intend are entrusting their children to a nursery, it should be to speak at great length. There may be an interruption mandatory for the staff to have specific training for the to our proceedings, and we want to hear the Minister’s needs of the role that they may be called upon to response. perform. I commend the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mark Richard Graham: My hon. Friend is right to differentiate Hunter) who introduced the debate in a calm and between the two. The point I was going to make was measured way. He told us about Millie Thompson and that the fact that I went on a first aid course about two the tragic circumstances of her death, and outlined the years ago does not necessarily make me that competent aims of the subsequent campaign that her parents to attend to someone in a life-or-death situation today, instigated. He said that despite that, the Government let alone at some point in the future. Although it is a may have watered down some of the regulations since great idea that everybody at school should learn first that campaign started. Before the conclusion of this aid, again, that will not necessarily make them competent debate, we need to hear whether that is the case and, if to act in a life-or-death situation. As other hon. Members so, why. I commend the hon. Member for Cheadle on pointed out, the stress of that situation, the possibility leading this debate in such a measured, calm, careful of panic and the absence of recent and up-to-date and considered way. experience of handling dummies and so on, will be I thank the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob crucial. Russell), who told us that he has had tragedy in his own That brings me to the key points raised by my hon. family and therefore brings his own experience to the Friend the Member for Cheadle. He rightly touched on debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield the fact that the number of children in child care is (Sir Alan Meale) is no longer in his place, but he rising and on the need for care for the most vulnerable—this intervened earlier. I commend other hon. Members who point will be especially relevant to the Minister, whose have contributed, including the hon. Member for Gloucester son cannot be much older than Millie was at the time of (Richard Graham) who made a short speech emphasising her death in 2012. The case that has been made today that the hon. Member for Cheadle had made a strong for mandatory paediatric first aid training for everybody case. working in child care is therefore a powerful one. The I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the coroner concluded that, first, the ambulance service debate, and many others will be grateful that it is should carry paediatric equipment for such a situation happening because more than 100,000 members of the and, secondly, that there should be a national review. public signed the petition that Millie Thompson’s parents Joanne and her campaign for Millie’s Trust have started. It is absolutely right to take this opportunity to already achieved the first objective, which other ambulance join in the tributes from other hon. Members to the services around the country may want to consider. I tireless campaigning work undertaken by Joanne and shall certainly write to my own ambulance service in Dan Thompson over the past two years since the tragic Gloucester. The second objective is open for the Minister’s death of their nine-month-old daughter, Millie. Following response, and I hope he will bear in mind the already their horrific loss, they have worked immensely hard to remarkable achievement of the trust in having trained try to create something positive, launching Millie’s Trust several thousand teachers for free. This is a fantastic last year to campaign for every nursery carer to be objective, and the number of teachers who have already trained in paediatric first aid, and to provide courses to been trained is fantastic. increase the number of nursery staff with first aid I do not know the precise cost of ensuring that every training. We should commend them on the practical person in every nursery is trained, and I hope that it training they have provided by setting up that trust. would not increase the cost of the child care provided to The remarkable number of signatories that the parents’ so many of our constituents around the country. I hope petition has attracted demonstrates clearly that they that it will be absorbed by the nursery as a necessary have struck a chord with the public, and it is absolutely part of providing that trust in child care that all of us right that we consider carefully whether the current who are parents would expect. requirement for first aid training in nurseries is appropriate. 423WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 424WH

What happened to Millie’s parents is something that hear his response—but it is certainly right that that every parent dreads: the sudden death of a perfectly should be the goal. In larger child care settings in healthy child whom they had dropped off at nursery on particular the requirement for a single first aid-trained another ordinary working day. All of us who are parents staff member may not be sufficient. Rising professional can empathise with their sorrow and desire to understand standards in the child care sector ought to pave the way what happened and why it happened to their daughter, for parents and regulators to expect more in terms of but no one who has not experienced what they experienced the skills and training of staff. In this particular case, can possibly understand the pain that they carry with tougher regulations may not have made a difference, them every day. but the tireless work of Millie’s parents since her death As we heard, Millie died after choking on mashed has opened a serious and vital debate about whether the shepherd’s pie during her third day attending a nursery regulations that we have now are sufficient. in Cheadle Hulme in October 2013. It is important to Everyone here today wants to do everything possible note, as hon. Members have done, what the coroner said to prevent further tragedies of the sort that Joanne and about the case. He was concerned enough by what he Dan Thompson have suffered. To help us judge what is heard during the inquest to raise serious questions being done, we need to hear the Minister’s answers to a about whether regulations on first aid training for nursery number of different points. Will he tell us what the staff were set at the right level, and furthermore took previous Secretary of State’s response was to the coroner’s the unusual step of announcing publicly that he would letter following the inquest and in what terms he responded be writing to the then Secretary of State for Education, to the coroner? I am sure the House would be very the right hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Michael interested to know how he responded to that call from Gove), to urge a move to first aid training for all nursery the coroner. staff. The coroner described that I have the Government’s response to the e-petition “as a matter of national importance”. here, and it is quite brief and light in detail—I know The hon. Member for Cheadle highlighted that. that is often the case in the way that such things are set The paediatric first aid certificate of the member of out. However, I and the rest of the House would be the nursery staff immediately to hand when Millie grateful if the Minister could tell us whether there is any began choking had expired. Recognising the seriousness kind of ongoing review of the suitability of required of the situation, they called for help from the staff levels of paediatric first aid training in child care settings, member on duty with up-to-date training. Technically, and if so, what form that review is taking. the nursery was at that time, fulfilling its duty to ensure The Minister’s colleague, the Under-Secretary of State that at least one staff member trained in first aid was on for Education, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich duty. After looking at the circumstances of the case, the (Mr Timpson), met Millie’s parents back in June. Further coroner’s verdict was death by misadventure, and the to what the hon. Member for Cheadle said, will this question arose of whether having that single member of Minister tell us more about what actions arose as a staff available—we have heard more details from the result of that meeting? What follow-up actions were hon. Member for Cheadle about what happened—was taken by the Department after that meeting? What were sufficient. As has been asked, what would happen if the new requirements that, as the hon. Gentleman they were elsewhere in the building or engaged in a task mentioned, had been explained to the parents during that it would be dangerous for them to abandon immediately the course of that meeting, and in particular, why have with other children in the nursery’s care? In serious they not received an answer, as he reported, about who medical situations involving the youngest children, any made the decision to remove the first aid requirements? delay can mean the difference between life and death. If the Minister is not able to provide that answer We can genuinely understand the coroner’s concern directly to us here and now, will he commit on record regarding the regulations on first aid training and why today to providing it to the House in the very near he was moved to take the action that he did in writing to future by writing to those Members present and to the the Secretary of State. Thompsons, and will he place a copy of that response in Opposition Members and, I am sure, all hon. Members, the House of Commons Library, so that it is available are firm believers in securing high quality, affordable, for all to see? flexible child care. We believe that at the heart of that We would all like to know why, as the hon. Gentleman mission is a continual drive to improve the standards indicated, there has apparently been a watering-down and standing of child care staff. We are fortunate, as a of the regulations in this area since this terrible tragedy nation, to have many highly-skilled, dedicated and hard- occurred. Does the Minister accept that that is the case? working people working on the front line in nurseries, If not, will he explain why he does not accept that what children’s centres and as childminders. There is a real has happened since constitutes a watering-down, and if desire among the best practitioners for improved training, he does accept that the regulations have been watered including ongoing retraining throughout an individual’s down since these tragic events, will he explain to the career in child care. They know that that route will lead House why that has happened? What is the thinking to better care for children, as well as eventually improving behind it and what is he going to do about it, in the pay and conditions for child care staff. As we move light of the strength of feeling that has been expressed towards a child care sector where higher standards of across the House today and given the campaign that training and professional development become the norm, the Thompsons have launched and the e-petition with improving the standard and quantity of staff trained in more than 100,000 signatures that has prompted paediatric first aid must be at the heart of that. today’s debate? I look forward very much to hearing the The Minister may tell us that immediately to demand answers to those questions and to the issues raised by that every staff member must be fully trained would other hon. and right hon. Members during the course bring difficulties for the sector—it will be interesting to of this debate. 425WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 426WH

5.44 pm Mr Gyimah: I thank the hon. Member for Colchester The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education (Sir Bob Russell) for that important intervention. I (Mr Sam Gyimah): I start by offering my deepest sympathies know that he has a lot of experience in these matters, to Mr and Mrs Thompson for the tragic death of their which brings me on to one of the points that has been daughter, Millie, in October 2012. I would also like to raised in this debate. It has been said that the regulations say how much I admire the worthwhile work that the have been watered down since September. That is simply Thompsons are doing through Millie’s Trust in their not the case. We have strengthened the regulations by daughter’s memory, providing first aid courses free of saying that providers must take account, as I have said, charge for people who are pregnant or have children of the number of children, the staff and the layout. under 12 months, and providing two-day courses for a Although we have removed the local authority approval, charge to nurseries. Those are all incredible feats in a we replaced that with a requirement to meet the course very short period of time, and I congratulate them on content for British Red Cross and St John Ambulance, that. It is no accident that Joanne Thompson won the so based on good practice of those with expertise. Lorraine Kelly inspirational woman of the year award. Ann Coffey: The Minister seems to be saying that he This debate has come about following Millie’s tragic death is not prepared to ensure that all staff working in a and because of the impact of Mr and Mrs Thompson’s nursery have training in paediatric first aid. Two staff in e-petition, which has gained more than 102,000 signatures, this nursery were trained. Does he think that the nursery to have it made law that everyone working in a nursery had trained enough staff in paediatric first aid? If he must be trained in paediatric first aid. I congratulate the does not think that is so, why will he not bring in hon. Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter) on securing regulations to ensure that the number of paediatric staff today’s debate on this important matter. I also thank all that he thinks are suitable to be trained in a nursery are the hon. Members who have spoken here today. I have trained? listened to their contributions and I agree that Millie’s death is a wake-up call for all of us. I hope during the Mr Gyimah: That is a very good intervention. I am course of my speech to address the points that have developing my case, but as I said at the outset, it is been raised so far. obvious that we need two things. We need enough staff As many hon. Members have said today, we can all trained in paediatric first aid, but also, importantly, we agree that all young children deserve the highest possible need to ensure that they are confident and capable of level of safety and care. As a new father myself, with an acting in an emergency, rather than panicking and not eight-month-old son who is about to start nursery, I dealing with it. We do not want it to be the case in an know that I want the nursery that I choose for my son to emergency that there are a number of people who have have an exemplary safety record, so that I can be a first aid certificate but it is not clear who is the point reassured that he will have the best possible care. That is person who is capable and competent to deal with that because the safety and welfare of children in all settings, kind of situation. whether in social care, schools or early years provision, is paramount. Ann Coffey: As the Minister will be aware, the campaign What do we want to achieve? We want to ensure that that Millie’s Trust is running is aimed at ensuring that there are confident, capable paediatric first-aiders in all every member of staff in a nursery is trained in paediatric nurseries, taking responsibility and responding quickly first aid, because it believes, rightly, that that will protect in an emergency. What are we doing to deliver that? The children in all situations. The Minister has not answered statutory framework for the early years foundation my question; I have heard a lot of good intentions from stage sets the standards for learning, development and him, but I return to the question that I asked him. If he care for children from birth to age five. All nurseries does not think that it was sufficient, in the nursery in must meet these standards to ensure that children learn this case, to have only two members of staff trained in and develop well and are kept healthy and safe. paediatric first aid, why will he not regulate to ensure In the light of Millie’s case, we have strengthened the that all members of staff working in a nursery are early years foundation stage requirements. From this trained in paediatric first aid? September, the early years foundation stage has made it even clearer that nurseries must always have staff available Mr Gyimah: The hon. Lady makes a very passionate who are trained in paediatric first aid. Beyond that, we point. As I said, I will develop my case further. What I added to the paediatric first aid requirement that nurseries am saying is that the requirement of the EYFS means “should take into account the number of children, staff and that nurseries must think carefully about whether they layout of premises to ensure that a paediatric first aider” have enough trained staff. That is about more than is “available at all times” and ensuring that they have enough trained staff to cover “able to respond to emergencies quickly.” leave or staff sickness. We know that, in some instances, the speed at which a trained first-aider can attend to a In other words, if a nursery is operating over three child who needs help can be crucial in ensuring a good floors, with children on each floor, it is not acceptable outcome for the child. We are already seeing how the for it to say that it only has one first aider, because it is new requirement is being delivered on by many nurseries, operating on three floors. which are taking into account staff turnover, holidays Sir Bob Russell: Bearing in mind what my hon. Friend and sickness. the Member for Cheadle said, will the Minister state The hon. Member for Cheadle mentioned the House whether training in those first aid requirements are of Commons nursery, which advertises that all its staff being given by people who are qualified first aid trainers have first aid certificates. In fact, many nurseries continue and not just people who say they are qualified first aid to do that as a point of differentiation between them trainers? and other nurseries, so I would say that the strengthening 427WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 428WH of the EYFS is having an effect on the market. We are made, I will refer to the Irish example. The Irish are putting lots of other things in place to strengthen that actually moving towards the framework that we have in even further. this country with the early years foundation stage. In response to a parliamentary question, they have said Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I apologise for joining explicitly: the debate late: I was in a statutory instrument Committee. “The final draft will include a requirement that early years I have been listening carefully to the debate and the services have a person trained in first aid for children available at Minister’s responses. The more I listen, the more I all times.” wonder what the reason is for not having everyone The solution that we are adopting, which can best be trained to the extent that the e-petition asks for. As the described as one that allows nurseries to use their Minister explains things more, he seems to be confirming professional judgment in appointing the right staff to my growing feeling that that would probably be the best this vital role, is not as anomalous as the hon. Gentleman way forward. Will he spell out why the Government are describes. I have said before and I will say again that not reluctant to go down that route? everyone who works in a nursery will be ideally suited to Mr Gyimah: We want to create a situation in which being a first-aider. Nurseries should ensure that their we have competent people dealing with this kind of first-aiders have the confidence and the reliability to incident. On its own, a first aid certificate, which means cope with an emergency, and I believe that the EYFS that someone can tick the box to say that they have a achieves that. At this stage, I do not feel that we need to first aid certificate, does not mean that that individual amend those requirements further. I do, however, want will be able to deliver first aid as and when an incident to remain fully informed of the effects that those changes happens. As the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob are having on the ground, and I know that the Department Russell) mentioned, in the case of one of the people for Education plans to undertake a review of them who had a first aid certificate in this instance, their next year. certificate had expired. If someone gets a first aid I also know that the Thompsons were concerned that certificate, they have to renew it every three years. some nurseries might not know how to interpret the I want to ensure that we do not end up legislating and strengthened requirements. I am pleased that in direct having a tick-box culture, thinking that that in itself has response to the Millie’s Trust campaign, the Department addressed the problem, when there are a number of for Education will issue in February new guidance other things that we can do, as I will explain if hon. for nurseries, setting out clearly what the expectations Members allow me to develop my points further. I am are and how nurseries can deliver on them effectively. I referring to work that we are doing with the National have asked the National Day Nurseries Association to Day Nurseries Association to help nurseries to understand help with that guidance. It will be identifying a number what it means to have capable and competent staff and of nurseries delivering exemplary paediatric first aid how they can respond in an emergency. I believe that practices, including methods used to ensure sufficiency that is far more important than a tick-box approach to of first aid-qualified staff, and providing case studies dealing with this kind of situation. and videos to ensure that nurseries are absolutely clear on what the PFA requirements mean and how they Mark Hunter: I thank the Minister for taking another should work in practice. intervention. With respect, I do not think that anyone Ann Coffey: Despite what the Minister is saying, we here today has been arguing for a tick-box culture and, could still have a situation in which a nursery, under his if I may say so, I do not think that that phrase is example, had decided that having two staff trained in particularly helpful to the consensus that has emerged paediatric first aid was sufficient—and a child died. during the debate. That clearly shows that the way to protect children is I want to follow up the intervention from the hon. not to rely on nurseries exercising their professional Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey). The Minister judgment, but to make it mandatory that all staff be referred to the changes to legislation. The fact of the trained in paediatric first aid. Otherwise, at some time matter is that it rests with individual organisations, in the future, there will be another inquest because a individual nurseries, to decide what is and is not sufficient. nursery has exercised its professional judgment. Sadly, The Minister says that if a nursery is operating over for the child who might die in the future, that is not three floors rather than one floor, that is a different enough. Surely the Minister can accept that the way consideration. But as long as it remains the decision of forward has to be making it mandatory for all staff in the individual establishment, there will be inconsistencies. nurseries to have first aid training. We cannot leave this Certain establishments—better-funded ones, with much matter just to the professional judgment of individual more money—will no doubt ensure, as some already nurseries. do, that every relevant member of staff has paediatric first aid training, but until it becomes necessary for all Mr Gyimah: The hon. Lady makes another very relevant staff to have that training, there will always be passionate intervention. Of course we want to ensure some nurseries, some of these businesses, that choose that the requirements in the EYFS are being delivered not to have every relevant member of staff trained. on in every nursery. As she rightly points out, we do not That is the core of the problem. The Minister needs to want just to leave that to the nursery’s professional provide some clarity on why, apparently, the Government judgment on its own. We should remember that Ofsted do not think that that would be a logical way forward. It regulates and inspects all early years provision. Before a would remove any uncertainty. nursery can open, Ofsted checks that it meets all the registration requirements, including those for first aid. Mr Gyimah: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that It also inspects all nurseries on how they meet the intervention. He used Ireland as an example in his EYFS requirements, including those for paediatric speech and, in the light of the intervention that he has first aid. 429WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 430WH

[Mr Gyimah] Mark Hunter: Further to that intervention, does the Minister agree with this statement from St John Ambulance: If a nursery fails to meet the requirements on first “Ensuring that every adult working in a child facing role has aid, that will impact on Ofsted’s inspection judgment; appropriate paediatric first aid training would decrease the delay as anyone who has looked at the nursery market will in responding to a first aid emergency, and increase the quality of know, nurseries crave a good judgment from Ofsted care”? because it is a point of differentiation in the market. If he does, is that not somewhat inconsistent with his Ofsted’s judgment is therefore really important. If the previous response? nursery does not meet the requirements on first aid, Ofsted will respond with appropriate steps. That may Mr Gyimah: It is a powerful point. To restate my include giving the nursery a short time to meet the argument, not everyone with a certificate is necessarily requirements. Where necessary, Ofsted can take enforcement the right person to deal with an emergency. We can action. argue that the likelihood of not having the right person on hand is reduced if everyone has that certificate, but [MR GRAHAM BRADY in the Chair] we want to have a situation where nurseries follow To ensure we have consistency of practice in the recognised best practice, rather than to mandate it just sector, I would like to hear from professional bodies so that everyone can say, “I have the certificate, and that and training providers about how they support nurseries is it.” We obviously value what St John Ambulance in providing paediatric first aid. I would be delighted does, which is why the EYFS requires nurseries to use to discuss the guidance further when I meet Mr and its training or British Red Cross training. Mrs Thompson later today.The guidance will be published next year, and I very much want to have their input and Richard Graham: The Minister has helpfully confirmed involvement. that the national review will go ahead, as the coroner wanted. To avoid any doubt, will he confirm that it will Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): include consideration of moves to make it mandatory I apologise for not being here for the whole debate. I for everybody working in nurseries to receive paediatric welcome the inclusion of the requirements in the Ofsted training? inspection, but will the Minister tell us how frequently our nurseries are inspected? My understanding is that Mr Gyimah: My hon. Friend is fast bringing me to an outstanding one, which would have been judged on the end of my speech—I was going to address that right previous criteria, might not be inspected for several at the end. Yes, when we have a national review, we will years. In taking the approach that he is, does the Minister look at making this mandatory. consider that time is on his side? Kevin Brennan: May I press the Minister on the Mr Gyimah: That is a good question. There is an nature of the review? Is he talking about an internal Ofsted inspection cycle for every nursery, but there is departmental review or about getting independent experts also a cycle for the first aid certificate. If someone has a to look at the issue and come to a conclusion? Furthermore, certificate, it will expire after three years, and they will on the timetable, he will be aware that we will be then have to go back and do a two-day course to have it pressing up against all sorts of deadlines next year, if I refreshed. I am counselling against believing that the can put it that way. The review will have to get under acquisition of a certificate alone will prevent such awful way quickly if he is to deliver on what he is promising tragedies from happening again. What will prevent them the House, so when will it get under way? from happening again is nurseries knowing what best practice is and implementing it, rather than just saying, “Our staff have the certificate, so we are covered.” That Mr Gyimah: We have been looking at that since is what I want to avoid. Mr and Mrs Thompson had their meeting with the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich. Once I have had Richard Graham: In a sense, there are two slightly a meeting with them, we will publish details of the different issues. I think the hon. Member for Stockport nature of the national review, but that is not to say that (Ann Coffey) was close to implying that, had everyone the issue is not of great importance for us. received paediatric training in the nursery where Millie, very sadly, died, these events would not have happened, Let me turn to the points made by the hon. Member but I am not sure that any of us here today is in a for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), who focused on position to make that judgment. However, on the wider whether we have watered down the regulations. I touched point, many of us feel that future tragedies would be on the point about local authorities. I would also like to much less likely if everybody did receive paediatric reassure him that, at the heart of the increase in the training, so will the Minister respond to the call for a skills and qualifications of the early years work force, review, which the coroner, in effect, made? we have emphasised the importance of paediatric first aid, which is included in professional child care Mr Gyimah: I can commit to a review next year of qualifications, although that might not necessarily lead how the requirements have been strengthened and how to a certificate that can be renewed every three years. they are bedding down in the nursery sector. I welcome Our standards for early years teacher status mean my hon. Friend’s intervention. None of us can say what that all early years teachers will know how to establish would happen if there was another situation on the and sustain a safe environment and employ practices ground, but we do have the coroner’s response, and I that promote children’s health and safety. Our early can commit to a review. years educator criteria, which the hon. Gentleman is 431WH Paediatric First Aid15 DECEMBER 2014 Paediatric First Aid 432WH intimately familiar with, mean that all early years educators hon. Members who spoke, but also in the sources of will understand how to respond to accidents and emergency information from which many of us quoted—that there situations. is a need for something to be done. No one is saying that the Government have deliberately Nic Dakin: May I bring the Minister back briefly to neglected the situation or allowed it to happen; I am the review? Can he give us a commitment to there being quite persuaded that the law of unintended consequences some independence and timeliness to that review? was involved. However there is clearly a problem, and as long as it is within the purview of individual Mr Gyimah: As I said, the review is of the utmost establishments to take their own decisions about what is importance to us. I have committed to a review, and the adequate and what is not and about whom they go to Department will look at it as expeditiously as it can. Of for the training—so that they need not be certified and course, independence is also important. accredited—there will still be doubt and uncertainty in The Opposition spokesman asked for the previous the mind of many parents. A case has been made for a Secretary of State’s response to the coroner’s report. I national framework. will write in due course to those who have spoken to provide them with the necessary information. Mr Gyimah: According to the EYFS, the content of On the actions following the meeting with the Under- the providers’ first aid courses should be from the Secretary of State for Education, a letter was written to British Red Cross and St John Ambulance, so that it is Mr and Mrs Thompson. We have also commissioned a based on the good practice of those with expertise. The good practice guide from the National Day Nurseries hon. Gentleman misquoted me on that. Association. On the removal of first aid requirements from qualifications, we will provide an answer in writing Mark Hunter: The key point is this—I happen to to Mr and Mrs Thompson and put it in the Library. have the St. John Ambulance note in front of me so I will refer to it again: St John Ambulance believes that I hope that I have reassured hon. Members and every adult working in a child-facing role should have Mr and Mrs Thompson that the Government recognise had training in paediatric first aid. the importance of keeping children healthy and safe. We are focused on strengthening the EYFS. We will By highlighting the tragedy, and bringing it to the produce guidance and, in due course, a national review, attention of parents throughout the country, we are which will include the question of mandatory training. giving the Government an opportunity to be seen to be listening and acting. It will not cost much money or Paediatric first aid training is, and will remain, a need much legislative time to establish the safeguards, statutory requirement for all nurseries and pre-schools. so that every parent taking their child to nursery will I hope that I have given the necessary assurance that the know that all relevant members of staff are adequately Government take the matter seriously and that we will trained in paediatric first aid. It seems a simple, work with Mr and Mrs Thompson to ensure that there straightforward and relatively inexpensive request, and will not be another awful tragedy such as the one they I am still baffled about why the Minister’s response has experienced. not been more optimistic and positive. I appreciate, however, that it will not be entirely down to him. I hope Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair): I do not know that we can explore the matter further in the private whether the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter) meeting to follow. wants to make a winding-up speech, but if he does I remind him that a Division in the House is expected at Question put and agreed to. 13 minutes past 6. Resolved, That this House has considered the e-petition relating to the 6.10 pm Millie’s Trust campaign to train all nursery nurses in paediatric first aid. Mark Hunter: Yes, I would like to take the opportunity of summing up. To be candid, I find the Minister’s response a little disappointing. There seemed to me 6.13 pm to be a fairly clear consensus—not only among the Sitting adjourned.

67WS Written Statements15 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 68WS

and supplementary debt target set out in the updated Written Statements charter the Government estimate that on current forecasts around £30 billion of discretionary consolidation is Monday 15 December 2014 likely to be required over the following two years 2016-17 and 2017-18.

TREASURY COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Charter for Budget Responsibility

Public Sector Pension Reform The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): Today the Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander) and I have published and laid before Parliament The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for an updated Charter for Budget Responsibility. This Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): charter must be approved by the House of Commons before it is brought into force. A debate and vote on the Introduction charter will be scheduled in the House of Commons for The Firefighters Pension Scheme Regulations 2015 early in the New Year. were laid in Parliament on 28 October. Reforms to The Charter for Budget Responsibility sets out the pension schemes are essential. People are living longer, Government’s approach to operating fiscal policy with the average 60-year-old living 10 years longer now transparently and managing sustainable public finances than they did in the 1970s. As a result, the cost of public in the long-term interests of the UK. The purpose of service pensions has increased in real terms by around a the charter is to improve the transparency of the third over the last 10 years and is now £32 billion a year. Government’s fiscal policy framework. It sets out the The Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 2015 will remain Government’s commitment to managing fiscal policy in among the very best pensions available, with guaranteed accordance with clear objectives and targets. benefits that are inflation proofed. The coalition Government The autumn statement 2014 update of the Charter recognises that firefighters regularly undertake duties for Budget Responsibility presents a revised fiscal under tough conditions and that they deserve a good framework, following a review by the Government. and generous pension. This is why, since the start of the reform process we have agreed to a number of enhancements. The existing fiscal mandate, set in 2010, reflected the exceptional fiscal challenge the Government faced. In The normal pension age of firefighters is 60, and has 2010 the Government said that they would revisit the been since 2006. It is lower than the pension age for fiscal rules once the public finances were closer to other public sector workers, reflecting the physical nature balance. Since then, the Government have made significant of the occupation. A normal pension age of 60 is being progress on their fiscal consolidation. retained for firefighters in the 2015 Scheme. Public sector net borrowing as a percentage of GDP Firefighter Fitness has fallen by more than a third since 2009-10 and is The Department is acutely aware that firefighters forecast to have fallen by half by the end of 2014-15. have concerns over maintaining their fitness as they The Government are forecast to meet their fiscal mandate grow older. Fitness is, and will remain, the responsibility two years early in 2017-18, having reduced the cyclically of individual fire and rescue authorities, the employers adjusted current Budget deficit from its peak of 4.7% of of individual firefighters. No changes to those requirements GDP in 2009-10 to 2.6% of GDP in 2013-14. On the are being made with the 2015 Scheme. However, we OBR’s central forecast, the cyclically adjusted current consider that more work needs to be done to support Budget will be in surplus by 0.7% of GDP in 2017-18. firefighters in maintaining their fitness and there needs In this context the horizon on the fiscal mandate can to be a stronger and clearer framework within which safely be shortened to create a tighter constraint on fire and rescue authorities make their decisions about future fiscal policy choices. The new framework presented fitness. This framework should be fair and transparent, today sets a three-year rolling horizon. At Budget 2015, and should provide strong reassurance for firefighters. therefore, the target year for the fiscal mandate will be Consultation on Amending the National Framework 2017-18. for Fire and Rescue England Both parties in the coalition Government are committed To that end, we announced on 28 October, at the to reducing public sector net debt (PSND) as a percentage same time as the regulations were laid, that we were also of GDP. The OBR forecast that PSND will peak in consulting on an amendment to the Fire and Rescue 2015-16 at 81.1% of GDP, a year later than the current National Framework for England. The National supplementary debt target. The revised Charter for Framework has a strong statutory basis. Under section Budget Responsibility sets a new supplementary target 21 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004, fire and for debt to be falling as a percentage of GDP in 2016-17. rescue authorities must have regard to the Framework Meeting the fiscal mandate and putting debt on in exercising their functions. Section 22 of the Act also declining path will require further difficult decisions to provides powers of intervention if the Secretary of be made by Government. The Government have set out State considers an authority is failing, or is likely to fail, detailed spending plans for 2015-16. Choices will need to act in accordance with the Framework. Clearly, it is to be made about the composition of further consolidation not a document which can be ignored, as the Fire beyond 2015-16. In order to meet the fiscal mandate Brigades Union has claimed. 69WS Written Statements15 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 70WS

The consultation concluded on 9 December, and we There is absolutely no prospect, as the Fire Brigades are keen to ensure that firefighters know as quickly as Union has deliberately and misleadingly claimed throughout possible the outcome and our final decisions. Having its dispute, of firefighters who lose fitness having “no reviewed all the consultation responses, we are pleased job and no pension”. that the majority of fire and rescue authorities agree We are today publishing an addendum to the National with the principles by which they would be expected to Framework and making the necessary statutory instrument manage fitness and fitness-related issues in their authorities. to bring it into force. We have built these clear principles around those agreed Strong transitional protections by the employers and the Union through the National Joint Council for Fire and Rescue Services, and adopted Because of the strong transitional protections built in Scotland. into the 2015 scheme, no firefighter will have to work beyond their current expected normal pension age until Principles regarding Firefighter Fitness 2022. That provides a number of years for fire and These principles recognise that firefighting is a physically rescue authorities and firefighters themselves to ensure demanding occupation, and that firefighters need to that their approaches to fitness are developed to support have appropriate levels of fitness. To this end the National firefighters working longer. In addition, there is a Framework will require all fire and rescue authorities to considerable amount of experience with regard to working have a process of fitness assessment and development; with older firefighters, with over 1,000 firefighters already ensure that no individual automatically faces dismissal over 55 years of age in employment. if they fall below fitness standards and cannot be deployed Fitness Working Group operationally; provide all operational personnel with To further support fire and rescue authorities in support to maintain their fitness for the duration of meeting their statutory requirements under the revised their career; and commit to providing a minimum of six National Framework, we have set up, along with the months, development and support for firefighters if Local Government Association and the Fire Brigades they fail a fitness test. It also requires that fire and Union, a fitness group facilitated by the Chief Fire and rescue authorities ensure appropriate reference of firefighters Rescue Adviser, Peter Holland. This group will provide to occupational health providers where necessary, and an important opportunity for employers, employees to identify reasonable adjustment or redeployment in and Government to consider the issues around fitness role where it appears the medical condition does not in more depth, and identify good practice to address allow a return to operational duties. them. This process, linked with generous ill health We have also included an additional requirement arrangements and the opportunity for redeployment, that, should a firefighter fail a fitness test through no supported by the principles in the Fire and Rescue fault of their own, the fire and rescue authority will National Framework for England, will ensure that consider suitable alternative employment, and if that firefighters continue to receive one of the best pension is not possible, and the employee is at least aged 55, packages available. consider an authority-initiated retirement. It is important Availability of National Framework Addendum that fire and rescue authorities explore fully all options A copy of the addendum to the Fire and Rescue open to them, and ensure that their employees are National Framework will be placed in the Library of treated with the fairness and dignity they deserve. the House and is also available on my Department’s These principles, if implemented effectively through website. fire and rescue authorities in their fitness policies and procedures, will ensure that no firefighter faces a situation where they are forced to retire without access to a fair ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS pension where they lose fitness through no fault of their own. Independent Review of Operation of Principles Agriculture and Fisheries Council

We have also committed to an independent review in The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and due course to ensure that appropriate fitness standards, Rural Affairs (Elizabeth Truss):The next Agriculture training, testing, monitoring and management policies and Fisheries Council will be on 15 and 16 December in and procedures are in place in each fire and rescue Brussels. My hon. Friend, the Parliamentary Under authority, which are in line with the principles set out in Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural the Framework. Affairs (George Eustice), will represent the UK. Richard A Fair Pension Lochhead MSP and Michelle O’Neill MLA will also attend. Additionally, through the improvements we have made There are both agriculture and fisheries items on this to the 2015 scheme, any firefighter who chooses to retire month’s agenda. early, between the ages of 55 and 60, will still have access to a pension that is actuarially fairly reduced, in The primary focus of the Council will be the agreement line with both Lord Hutton’s and Dr Tony Williams’ of the Council regulations fixing fishing opportunities recommendations. In the 2015 scheme, a firefighter for 2015 in EU, and certain non-EU, waters and in the retiring at 55 would see a 21.8% reduction to their Black Sea. pension (and no reduction to benefits earned in the In addition on agriculture, the presidency will seek 1992 scheme if the firefighter was a member of that adoption of draft Council conclusions on error rates for scheme). This compares very favourably with the 40.5% agricultural expenditure and on strengthening of EU reduction applied in the 2006 scheme. policies for young farmers. We understand the presidency 71WS Written Statements15 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 72WS will seek agreement of a document outlining future regrettable that Russian obstruction meant that a declaration work on the proposal for a regulation on organic production on the OSCE’s role in, and support to, Ukraine could and labelling of organic products. There will be progress not be agreed despite the vast majority of OSCE States’ reports on a number of proposals for regulations including desire to do so. However, in his Chairman’s summary fixing certain aids and refunds related to the common https://www.news.admin.ch/messaae/ organisation of the markets in agricultural products; index.html?lana=en&msQ-id=55531 the aid scheme for the supply of fruit and vegetables, President Burkhalter noted that many states had expressed bananas and milk in educational establishments; protective the view that the crisis was the result of the pressure of measures against pests of plants; official controls performed one participating State against another; that the so-called to ensure the application of food and feed law, rules on referendum in Crimea had been in contradiction with animal welfare, plant health, plant reproductive material the Ukrainian constitution; that Russia’s actions in and plant protection products; and zootechnical and Crimea had been in violation of fundamental OSCE genealogical conditions for trade and imports into the commitments and international law; and that the territorial union of breeding animals and their germinal products. integrity, political independence and unity of Ukraine There will also be a progress report on the proposal for within its internationally recognised borders must be a directive on zootechnical legislation. respected. There are currently five any other business items: In the margins of the Council, I attended a meeting Implementation of the landing obligation hosted by the Lithuanian Foreign Minister with Crimean Outcome of the trilateral ministerial meeting on animal Tatar leader Mustafa Dzhemilev, who described the welfare restrictions and violations that the Tatars are now Extension of the eligibility of expenditure under Rural experiencing following Russia’s illegal annexation. Separately Development Programme 2007-2013 I met representatives of Russia-based civil society groups, 36th Conference of Directors of EU Paying Agencies who detailed the worrying trends of restrictions and Issues related to the implementation of additional measures threats that such groups face from the Russian authorities. on the fruits and vegetables market. Both meetings underlined the need for tough messages to be given to Russia about its conduct both in eastern Ukraine and Crimea, and also within Russia where FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE human rights must be properly respected. Aside from discussions on Ukraine, the Council agreed decisions or declarations on a number of topics, including OSCE Ministerial Council on countering kidnapping and hostage-taking committed by terrorist groups; on countering the phenomenon of foreign terrorist fighters; on enhancing efforts to combat The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I anti-Semitism; on the continuation of the Helsinki +40 represented the United Kingdom at the 21st Ministerial process; and on the Transdniestrian Settlement Process. Council meeting of the Organisation for Security and President Burkhalter additionally announced the launch Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), held in Basel, Switzerland of a panel of Eminent Persons to run through 2015 on 4-5 December 2014 and hosted by Swiss Federal with the support of the incoming Serbian and German President and OSCE Chairman-in-Office Didier Burkhalter. Chairmanships, with a remit to provide proposals on The Council is the key decision-making body of the how to rebuild trust and establish respect for core OSCE and was attended by Ministers from across its OSCE principles. 57 participating States. I also met Serbian Foreign Minister Ivica Dacic, who The Council took place in the final month of a year will chair the OSCE when Serbia take over from Switzerland when the OSCE has been at the centre of the international at the end of 2014, where we discussed the need for the response to the Ukraine crisis, and this subject dominated OSCE to stay strongly engaged on the Ukraine crisis as the Council. In my interventions in the discussions that we move into 2015. took place on 3 and 4 December, I made clear that by its I am placing a copy of the UK intervention in actions Russia was fully responsible for the instability in plenary, and of the OSCE Chairman’s summary of the eastern Ukraine, and that its illegal annexation of Crimea first day of discussions, in the Libraries of both Houses. would not be recognised by the international community. I said that Russia must implement its commitments It is also available online at: under the Minsk Protocols, by withdrawing military http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/ personnel, equipment and weapons from Ukraine’s written-questions-answers-statements. sovereign territory, ceasing the supply of separatist factions, and securing its border with Ukraine. Only then will there be space for a political solution to the crisis. I also commended the role of the OSCE in WORK AND PENSIONS facilitating dialogue and providing valuable impartial reporting from eastern Ukraine, in particular its special monitoring mission, to which the UK has provided and Benefit Cap Review will continue to provide significant financial and personnel support. Similar sentiments were expressed in plenary by US The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Secretary of State Kerry, German Foreign Minister Duncan Smith): Today I am publishing the Command Steinmeier, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Klimkin and Paper Cm 8985 “The benefit cap: a review of the first EU High Representative Mogherini among others. It is year”. 73WS Written Statements15 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 74WS

This review is published in line with the statement on movement into work (proxied by Working Tax Credit made by the then Minister for Employment on 1 February exemption), moving house and movement out of scope 2012. The document draws on a suite of evaluation for the cap. commissioned by my Department, with key findings Post-implementation effects of the benefit cap peer reviewed by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, or on its behalf by independent researchers. An Ipsos MORI longitudinal telephone survey of capped households identified from the October 2013 The review also draws on the benefit cap official Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE). The first wave statistics and evidence previously published by my of the survey was carried out with 1,200 claimants in Department. February 2014, and the second in August-September The extensive new evaluation material is attached to 2014 with 468 of the same claimants. This work examines this statement and will also be published today on the the behavioural change over time on employment, finances gov.uk website. and housing. The review brings together and summarises the messages In-depth interviews with people affected by the benefit across all of the evaluation publications. Key findings cap include: A Cambridge Centre for Housing and Planning Research There is consistent evidence of positive employment-focused (CCHPR) report based on interviews with 50 households behavioural change for claimants affected by the cap, including lone parents and carers. It is clear that the priority of affected by the benefit cap These households were identified claimants affected by the benefit cap is to find work and they from the same source as the Ipsos MORI surveyed are succeeding in doing so. claimants. This work explores coping strategies of Many claimants were encouraged to find work as a result households and changes in behaviour around work and of the cap. Capped households were 41% more likely to go well-being, mobility and household structure, income into work after a year than a similar uncapped group of and well-being, and beliefs and expectations. It provides households (those with benefit income just below the cap contextual information around themes explored in the level). Among lone parents and families in London there survey. was an even greater likelihood of capped cases moving into work than similar uncapped cases. Supporting households affected by the benefit cap: Impact on local authorities, local services and social The benefit cap is a popular policy, 73% of the public support it in principle and 77% of the public agree that it is landlords fair for households with no-one working to receive no more This report by CCHPR draws on work in 10 case in benefit than the average amount working households study local authorities (LAs); a survey of social landlords; receive after tax. and consultation with major lenders to the Housing Very few capped households have moved house and where Association sector. A variety of LA staff were interviewed they have done so, the vast majority have moved locally. The in May-August 2013 and again in September 2014 in benefit cap has led to little, if any homelessness and local case study areas; 26 landlords were interviewed in 2013 authorities have coped well with its introduction. and again after one year in these areas alongside 47 local I enclose below a brief description of each evaluation agencies (including CAB and voluntary organisations); report: and variety of lenders were interviewed and provided Benefit cap: Analysis of outcomes for capped claimants written responses to the consultation in October 2013 Analysis of administrative data carried out by and 2014. It provides information on how local services departmental analysts and peer reviewed by the Institute have been affected and how they are working with for Fiscal Studies. This document examines the historical capped claimants. estimates of those in scope for the cap and effects of the Attachments can be viewed online at: benefit cap by comparison of outcomes of capped http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/ claimants and comparable groups. Evidence is presented written-questions-answers-statements. 5P Petitions15 DECEMBER 2014 Petitions 6P Petitions OBSERVATIONS

Monday 15 December 2014 HEALTH Localised healthcare in North East Cambridgeshire The Petition of residents of the North East PRESENTED PETITION Cambridgeshire Constituency, Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor Declares that the Petitioners believe that healthcare should be more localised in North East Cambridgeshire; Spread Co Limited further that residents of North East Cambridgeshire face long travel times and costs when requiring procedures The Petition of sundry former employees of Spread which should be delivered locally; further that the Petitioners Co Limited, believe that treating patients locally brings significant benefits; and further that there is a community campaign Declares that although Spread Co Limited (based in entitled ‘Treat Me Local’ calling for healthcare to be Northwood Hills) has a heavy online presence it is more localised in North East Cambridgeshire which actually a small company with fewer than 50 members has been signed by 1,389 individuals. of staff occupying a few rooms above an inexpensive row of shops; further that Spread Co Limited has made The Petitioners therefore request that the House of losses for most of its history; further that despite its Commons urges the Government to ensure that the ten small workforce Spread Co Limited has attracted numerous pledges of the Treat Me Local campaign in North East staff complaints and civil claims; further that Spread Cambridgeshire are fulfilled within twelve months. Co has been making redundancies and has been cost-cutting And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Stephen since 2012; further that an Employment Tribunal this Barclay, Official Report, 25 November 2014; Vol. 588, year found that the CEO of Spread Co Limited, Ajay c. 888.] Pabari, had treated a manager, Richard Pashley, unlawfully as well as treating a female member of staff unlawfully [P001401] (although the female member of staff did not win her Observations from the Secretary of State for the constructive dismissal claim as she had resigned prematurely Department of Health: against legal advice) and that other members of staff Decisions about local services should be made as had compromised claims successfully; further that there close to patients as possible, by those who are best have been repeated and multiple claims that Spread Co placed to work with the patients and the public to Limited has been involved in questionable financial understand their needs. Patients and carers should be at practices and employment blacklisting; further that there the heart of the NHS, through shared decision-making have been repeated complaints about Ajay Pabari, Matt about their care and meaningful involvement in how Funnell (the Head of IT) and Richard Pashley; and health services are organised. further that the Petitioners believe it appropriate to warn investors and customers of the substantial risk to Local NHS commissioners now have the freedom their money. and autonomy to take responsibility for meeting the needs of local patients and the public by working closely The Petitioners therefore request that the House of with secondary care, other health and care professionals Commons urges the Financial Conduct Authority and and with community partners to design joined up services. the Data Protection Commissioner to investigate Spread These commissioning arrangements encourage innovation Co Limited, Ajay Pabari, Richard Pashley and Matt by placing commissioning with the local GPs who know Funnel in relation to the numerous staff complaints patients best and are aware of the latest clinical evidence that Spread Co has attracted, the claims that Spread Co and technological advances in health and care. Limited has been involved in questionable financial practices and employment blacklisting and the complaints The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire against the individuals mentioned. has met local commissioners to discuss the “Treat Me Local”campaign, and local commissioners have welcomed And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by John his interest in developing health services further for the Hemming.] [P001416] local population.

ORAL ANSWERS

Monday 15 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1099 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Business Rates...... 1112 continued Council Tax ...... 1109 Local Authority Finance...... 1101 Empty Homes...... 1113 Parking Enforcement ...... 1107 Firefighters Pension Scheme ...... 1114 Social Care...... 1106 Homelessness and Rough Sleeping...... 1108 Social Enterprise North West...... 1105 House Building ...... 1104 Topical Questions ...... 1115 House Building ...... 1110 Welfare Assistance Schemes ...... 1099 LED Street Lighting ...... 1100 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Monday 15 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 68WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 71WS Public Sector Pension Reform...... 68WS OSCE Ministerial Council ...... 71WS TREASURY ...... 67WS Charter for Budget Responsibility...... 67WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 70WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 72WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 70WS Benefit Cap Review...... 72WS PETITIONS

Monday 15 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 6P PRESENTED PETITION ...... 5P Localised healthcare in North East Spread Co Limited...... 5P Cambridgeshire...... 6P Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Monday 15 December 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1099] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government

UK Armed Forces (Iraq) [Col. 1121] Answer to urgent question—(Michael Fallon)

Northern Ireland (All-party Talks) [Col. 1132] Answer to urgent question—(Mrs Villiers)

Business of the House [Col. 1141] Motion—(Thérèse Coffey)—agreed to

Firefighters’ Pension Scheme (England) [Col. 1142] Motion—(Hilary Benn)—on a Division, negatived

Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill [Col. 1173] Further considered in Committee

Petition [Col. 1234]

Housing Development (North Somerset) [Col. 1235] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Paediatric First Air [Col. 407WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 67WS]

Petitions [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]