THE BLACK ARTS MOVEMENT: THE AESTHETICS OF BLACK POWER

AN ORAL HISTORY WITH E. ETHELBERT MILLER

MONA RAI

AP UNITED STATES HISTORY MR. GLENN WHITMAN

OH RAI 2004

Rai, Moiia Table of Contents

I. Contract page 3

II. Slatemenl of Purpose page 4

III. Biography of Mr. E. Ethelbert Miller page 5

IV. Fhstorical Contextualization,

"In Partnership with Black Power: The Contribution of the Black Aits

Movemenl" page 7

V. Interview ofMi. E. Ethelbert Miller page 19

VI. Interview Analysis page 41

VII. Works Consulted page 48 ST ANDREW'S EPISCOPAL SCHOOL Oral History Project Release Form I, 1?- r^-'^^\v--h t^^-tW^ ^ hereby give and grant to St. Andrew's Episcopal School (interviewee) the absolute and iiiiqiialified right to the use of my oral history memoir conducted by

/vlQAfX 1M^\ on I ^ I IDIP—* . I understand that the puipose of this project is to (student intei'viewer) (date) collect audio- and video-taped oral histories of first-hand memories of a particular period or event in histoiy. I understand that tliese intei'views will be protected by copyright and deposited in the Saint Andrew's Episcopal School library and archives for the use of ftiture students, educators and scholars. 1 also understand that the tapes and transcripts may be used in public presentations including, bul not limited to, books, audio or video documentaries, slide-tape presentations, exhibits, articles, or presentation on the World Wide Web at the project's web site www.doingoralhistory.org or successor technologies. 1 hereby release and discharge St, Andrew's Episcopal School and project coordinator, r<^- iD\M^tiAU/Y\ , from any and all claims and demands arising out of, or in connection with, (coordinator's name)

the use of such observations, memories and experiences drawn from my tapes and transcript, including, but not limited to, any and all claims of libel, slander, and invasion of privacy. This gift does not preclude any use that I myself want to make of tbe information in these transcripts and recordings. The interviewee acknowledges that he/she will receive no remuneration or compensation for either his/lier participation in tiiis project for the rights assigned hereunder. I herein warrant that I have not assigned or in any manner encumbered or impaired any of the aforementioned rights in my oral niemoir. This release replaces any prior release signed by the inlerviewee related to this project and that any prior document is therefore deemed invalid. The only conditions which 1 place on this unrestricted gift are:

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3. ^7d^ Signature of Interviewee/Donor

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Statement of Purpose

The puipose of this oral histoiy project is lo leain more aboul the turbulent times and

Ihenies of the Black Arts Movement, ll is an aspect of history that is vastly overlooked and deseives more recognition for what il has done for the black conimunily. Il enabled

black artists to express themselves in an authentic and honest way in ordei" lo produce

self-pride in their own communities. An interview with E. Ethelbeit Miller, a student at

Howard University at the peak of this cultural movement, will help to illustrate how this

overlooked movement impacted young people and fills in the gaps of more traditional

sources. Rai 5

E. Ethelbert Miller: A Biography

E. (Eugene) Ethelbert Miller was born in New York City, New York on

November 20, 1950. Growing up in the now-famous neighborhood of Soulh Bronx, liis parents instilled him with a great respect for education. AOer graduating from a predominantly white high school, to wliich he was bused because of new legislation enforcing integration, Mr. Millei' attended Howard University. During that lime, he was exposed to the ideology of the Black Power and Black Arts Movement through exhibitions of its most famous figures. Under the tutelage of innovative teachers who nursed his newfound interest in poetry and black civil rights, Mr. Miller changed his major fiom pre-law to Afiican American studies. After he graduated fiom Howard

University, he traveled extensively lo Cuba, Nicaragua, Chile, and El Salvador. He describes the Black Aits Movement as being liis baptism into black radicalism and as an event that changed his life.

E. Ethelbert Miller is now a writer (poet) and the director of African American

Resource Center of Howard University. He is a founding member of the Humanities

Council of Washington D.C, and a commissioner for the D.C. Commission on the Aits Rai 6 and Humanities. Mr. iVhIler was awarded an honorary doctorate of literature fiom Emory

& Hemy College in 1996. He was also an honoraiy member of the Arts Club of

Washington, and, on several occasions, has had days named afier him. He has also received numerous literaiy awards and is one of the editors o^Poet-lore magazine. He lives in Washington D.C. wilh his wife and two daughters, Jasmlne-Simone and Nyere-

Gibran. Rai 7

Historical Context "In Partnership Wilh Black Power: The Contribution of the Black Arts Movement"

For the African American living in America before 1960, life was an

unchangeable burden. There was no leal enjoyment to be derived from the way tliey lived

in comparison to the way wliites lived. Ever since the first slave ship arrived in America

in 1619, whites determined an African American's life. They had no other option but to

live under ihe harsh lifestyle their white, superior counterparts decided for them. They were subjected to an unimaginable ordeal under the yoke of slavery unlil 1865, when the

Thirteenth Amendment was ratified, and they were set free from their literal bonds, but not from them subservient lole they had served for so long. The period afier the Civil

War (1865-1877), appropriately entitled Reconstruction, saw the advancement of various

anti-African American institutions such as the Ku Klux Klan (KKK), the increasing rates

of lynching, the development of Jim Crow laws and Black Codes in the south; and the

landmark case oi^Ple.s.sy v. Fergueson (1896), which ruled thai the two races would be

"equally" segregated. During the late niiieteenth and early twentieth centuries, a number

of African American leaders rose lo prominence, and helped lo change the consciousness

of blacks, including Booker T. Wasliington, W. E. B. DuBois, and Marcus Garvey. Each had their own theoiy for how blacks could better themselves as a people and how to find

Iheir place inside, and outside, of America. Resentment built up from almost four hundred years of oppression helped to make the African American realize who they were and what they represented in the United States. After the BroM>n v. Board of Education

(1954) decision, many blacks fought for their civil rights, a fight which brought them squarely into the turbulent sixties. Tliroughout this battle for civic and personal equality, a split was sustained within the black community. There were those who, like Martin Rai 8

Luther King Jr., wanted to integrate and jusi be seen as equals in the whole of American society; and then there were others, like Malcolm X, who believed that blacks should not assimilate inlo American cuUure, and recognized that the system of American social politics had to transform in a militant and violent way. They believed this was brought about by abmpt change and revoh. It is they, the blacks who did nol care to mix with

While America, who brought about an arts movement that would last aboul a decade, with which ihey would categorically define themselves. This became known as the Black

Arts Movement.

The sixties in general was a time for massive self-expression, exploration, and discoveiy. Many minorities were finding their own voices wilh which to fighl the establishment, with which (o protest. Many women were denying their forced position in sociely as a housewife and became students, intellectuals, radicals. They were experiencing a collective epiphany: they were essential to American society, so why were

Ihey treated as second-class citizens? Most minorities were asking themselves the same question. Many gays and lesbians fought for their opinions to be heard and fought for their righl lo live as they wished. This "Rights Revolution" occurred against the vast backdrop of the Vietnam War, which lasled from 1955 to 1975. Producing one of the largest and most influential anti-war movemenis in Ainei ican histoiy, the Vietnam War took the lives of many young men, women, and imiocent civilians. During the tenure of tluee Presidents, John F. Kennedy (1960-1963), Lyndon B. Johnson (1963-1968), and

Richard M. Nixon (1969-1976), many events happened that helped lo shape the

American psyche. Rai 9

This included several riots in major cities across the nation such as Watts,

California, in 1965, wliich arose because of a scuffle involving Marquette Fiye, who was falsely accused of druken-and-disorderly driving by white police officers. When his brother and mother pleaded for liis fieedom, the police officers physically fought them as well. The entire black community of Walts resented this, and they wenl on a five-day rampage, firebombing and looting the city, particulariy while-owned businesses. Anolher such protest took place in Detroit, Michigan, in 1967, during the summer. This is considered to be one of the most gruesome race riots in recent American history. Once the police launched a raid in an illegal bar which also offered gambling, there were persistent minors of police brutality, and the resentment began to build, as il did in Watts, and exploded in a two day frenzy involving looting, burning of white-owned businesses, and sniper attacks. The rage grew Lo such an extent that the destruction spread to black businesses and homes as well. This conflict resulted in forty-three deaths and seven thousand people were arrested. In 1968, one of the largest riots in American histoiy occurred in various cities across the country as a reaction to the assassniation of Dr,

Martin Luther King. The total number of dead was forty-six and two thousand six hundred were injured.

In the midst of these various national events and revolutions, the arts were becoming a formidable force of influence among the young people of America. Many underground hleraiy and cultural movements were occurring, and much of that art held special significance. No art movement had ever before fully encompassed the feelings that dissenters were experiencing at that time. There was such a prodigious amount of unadulterated fury al the govemmeni and the police al that time among all radicals thai Rai 10 the creaiion of a new kind of art was necessary lo properly express themselves. This art represented something that had never been seen before, especially wilh regard to blacks.

Never before had blacks in America expressed themselves wilh such authenticity and originality, even in such past eras as the twenties and the Harlem Renaissance. The

Harlem Renaissance showed that blacks were capable of art along while guidelines, but not that they could develop a slyle all their own. This development manifested itself in the Black Arts Movement. The Black Arts Movemenl commanded a large number of participants, and carried much infiuence.

As the most "socially engaged literaiy movement in America's history" (as qtd in

Nelson), as writer Kalama ya Salaam describes it, the Black Aits Movement lifespan began and ended belween 1965 and 1975. This movement revolved around several key concepts: being a black person was something to be proud of, and was il was lo be celebrated; an artist musl be personally responsible for all he creates in his medium, the artist and his community were connected, therefore the art must sei've and represent the people; and that any art that is created was lo operate a function. It also had a major ideal base in the concept of Black Power.

The link between Black Power and the Black Aits Movement is substantial. The

Black Power Movemenl began in the mid i960s and lasted until the eariy 1970s. The concept of Black Power is rooted in the belief that no true freedom for blacks can come through assimilating into While America. Blacks can only tmly be fiee and belter Ihrough self-improvement and the rebuilding of their cominunilies. The concept of Black Power showed itself through the Black Panther Party and its most famous leader, Stokely

Caniiichael. They strongly advocated that blacks try to leani about their culture and Rai n heritage in order to expand iheir consciousness, and see beyond tlieir petty barriers lo realize that their fight is a national one. They emphasized the idea that all black people were connected Lhiotigh a common plight, that of racial oppression, and they should not allow themselves to be divided. Many of the arlisls associated wilh the Black Ails

Movement shared the same ideology as many of the Black Panther Party leaders. These two movements are coiuiected because they are seeking the same goal, they are just using two different methods of effecting change; one is using art, and the other is using militancy and violence.

This idea of a racial unity extends back lo the teachings of Malcolm X, otherwise blown as El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, who was considered to be ihe single most important leadei' in the militant black rights movemenf. As Alex Haley writes in The Autobiography of Malcolm X:

Many of the Negro writers and arlisls who are national figures loday revered

Malcolm for what they considered his ruthless honesty in stating the Negro

Case, his refusal to compromise, and his search for a group identity that had

Been destroyed by the while man when he broughi the Negroes In chains

From Afiica. The Negro writers and artists regarded Malcolm as the great

Catalyst, the man wlio inspired self-respect and devotion in ihe downtrodden

MilHons. (xiii)

Malcolm X was consideied lo be the exeniplaiy civil rights leader of the period, and tens of thousands of blacks admired him. Therefore, when he was assassinated in 1965, it spurred an uprising witliin the literaiy and artistic community which evolved inlo the

Black Arts Movement. There was a sense of confusion witliin the black community as to Rai 12 where they were supposed to go and what they would do next (Montgomery "Harlem is

Quiet as News Spreads,"/Yt'ii' York 'Times, 11).

The African Americans' embrace of their heritage, their culture, and their history is connected with the idea of a Black Aesthetic. This term means a search for a new way of defining was is considered great black art, and it is also a concept thai denotes a needlessness of white approval thai definitively expresses the equality of their art and ability. The Black Aesthetic was then' way of disobeying the conventional methodologies of creating art because black art is meant lo express who they are as a people and thai message may not be effectively delivered through traditional painting, sculpture, poetry, theatre, or Hteratuie. Though the categorical definition of what a Black Aesthetic is depends on the arlist, it is clearly and elaborately described in wriier Addison Gayle Jr.'s

1971 anthology. The Black Aesthetic. Considered lo be one of the most pivotal books of that period, Gayle defines what he sees as the Black Aesthetic: "The Black Aeslhetic.is a corrective—a means of helping black people out of the polluted mainstream of

Americanism, and offering logical, reasoned arguments as to why he should not desire to johi the ranks of a Norman Mailer or a William Slyron" (xxiii). hi this statement, and later on in his inroduction, Gayle asserts ihe positive qualities of not being associated with classical American writers. He says ihis is because the art blacks cieated at that time reflected a society, position, and point of view no classical writer, until that point, had been exposed to.

This view of America had not been shown before because it is sometliing exclusively Aflican American in scope and, especially in post-World War II America in the midst of the Cold War, art that denounced the goveniment and all wliite authority Rai T' figures was considered especially dangerous. This literature was also nol widespread and was only exposed to many black communilies. As Julian Mayfield writes in liis essay

"You Touch my Black Aesthetic and I'll Touch Yours:"

For those who must create, there is a Black Aesthetic which cannot be stolen

From us, and il rests on something much more substantial than hip talk,

African dress, natural hair, and endless fruitless discussions of "soul." It

Is in our racial nieinory, and the unshakable knowledge of who we are,

Wheie we have been, and, springing fiom tliis, where we are going, (as qtd in

Gayle 27)

The concept of the Black Aesthetic enables these artists lo create something wliich is original and unique, and it has not been exposed to mainstream America because it was something many felt would noi be underslood.

Another quality the work of this period exuded was ihal of the responsibility of the artist to his community. His work had to be for the people, and creating art just for art's sake denoted a culture that was not valid. They believed that morals and appearance of a person's arl were connected, and that a message was supposed lo be conveyed through the piece and affect people deeply. When this sort of connection would occur belween the people and ihe art, it broke the barrier between the artist and his audience.

This encouraged a greater bond witliin the community and convinced the artistic audience thai artists are approachable. This was important for blacks because it encouraged the racial unity that many artists felt was essential for the bettering of the race. As Virginia

Hiltz and Dr. Michael Sell stale, "Black atlisls had lo relate ethics and aesthetics, they had lo decide whose truth to present, to deal with ideas of beauty and truth as reflections Rai 14 of the black society, and as power for the black people throtigh their art" (Hillz and Sell).

In this statement, they outline this idea of a set of guidelines for black artists to follow in order to accomplish ihe goal of creating true, authentic, great black art. They should seek to create something which would set them apart and inspire them to be confideiit in the people that they are. The need to emphasize an artist's morality is obligatory because blacks were presenting an image of the race, therefore it was necessaiy to always show themselves in a positive, self-righteous light.

Some of the major leaders of tliis movement include poets and essayists like

Nikki Giovanni and Sonia Sanchez, writers and scholars Hke LeRoi Jones (wh changed his name to Amiri Baraka) and Laiiy Neal, theoreticians and philosophers like Harold

Cruse and Ron Kareiiga. Karenga was one of the most important black men of this period, he finalized the philosophy of Kawaida, wliich included the recognition of ihe holiday of Kwanzaa and the emphasis on African names, and influenced a number of people, including Amiri Baraka. Baraka was an important man in this period because he established ihe Black Arts Repertory Theatre/School (BART/S) in 1965 in Hariem. This was the first institution of its kind that was brought to an inner-cily area. It offeied ieaclnng in various fine arts and helped lo bring art back into ihe hands of the people so thai it could accurately portray ihe lives ihey led. The very group that was speaking out now had the ability to make ihe art that influenced others and led to an overlap of arl and politics.

After that, many other theatre and literature groups were eslablished all over Ihe country, such as the New Lafayette Thealre, which was also established in Harlem; Sun

People's Theatre, created by Barbara Ann Teer and based in New York City, and Black Rai 15

Flouse, wliich was based in California. Nikki Giovanni mid Sonia Sanchez created plays and poetiy which reflected their opinions that black people should realize Iheir identity in

America and understand the role they play in while culture. Giovanni wrote books such as Black Feeling, Black Talk, and Black Judgment. Sancliez wrote plays such as The

Bronx is Next, Malcolm Man Don V Live Here No Mo': Uh Uh, Bin How Do Ii Free

Us'Dirty Hearts^ and Sister SowJi. Harold Cruse was a philosopher and major scholar, and ptiblished his views in The Crisis of the Negro Intellectual. In it, he explains the dilemma facing those intellectual blacks who seek their place in the black community. He asks, "...how do Negro intellectuals measure up to the complex problem of being spokesmen on behalf of their ethnic group, the Negro masses" (10)? It entails the duality of eiiher being a creative artist or simply one who studies ihe history, position, and culture and comes to his or her own conclusions.

The disintegration of the movement occurred in 1974, when in May, there was a split in the African Liberation Support Committee (ALSC) belween Leninists, who sought the goal of having the working masses revolt against ihe general bourgeoisie, and

Black Nationalists, who only wanted io address the issue of black liberation. In August of that year, the Pan-African Congress (PAC), which met in Tanzania, Africa, undermined the Black Power, and iheieby ihe Black Ails, concept of combating against the esiablishmenl, wliich was based on race. The Congress openly denounced this type of superficial, racial conflict, and ihis had an enormous effect on militant Afiican American organizations in Ameiica. The final event in the series of occurrences ihat were detrimental lo the black liberation cause happened in Oclober of 1974. That month Amiri Rai 16

Baraka's organization, the Congress of .Afiikan People (CAP), became Mar.xisl-Leninisi.

This caused many of liis followers to lose faith in him and faith in their beliefs.

Also, during the mid to late seventies. President Nixon commercialized the concept of black capitalism by exposing mainstream America io the sort of underground cinema, lileraiuie, publications, and music that the Black Arts Movement had been producing for yeais. During this period a number of films were premiered that belonged to a genre leferred to as "blaxploitation" films, such as Shaft, Foxy Brown, and Super

Fly. Because of the large amount of money that independent artists were getting paid for their work, il also undermined the Black Arts Movement's economic base.

In 1976, there was an oil crisis and recession. Because of the sudden depletion of matiy of their fiinds, the black artists could not be self-reliant in creating and distributing their own art. In this year both the Black Ails Movemenl and ihe Black Powet

Movement's prowess diminished due lo financial constrainls, lack of influence, and division among their most central leaders. Allhough the proliferation of conlributions to

American literatuie and art has vastly weakened, it still leaves a legacy that is difficult to erase.

There are certain characteristics that the Black Arts Movemenl contributed to

Black, and also American, culture. One was the advocacy of the involvement of artists in political protest and activism. Another was the emphasis of morality in the work they produce and the theme of call-and-response that was found in theatre, rnusic, and literature is also seen in coiUemporaiy rap music and poetry performances. Many elements of this pro-Black Power concept, such as self-reliance, anti-eslablishment-ism. Rai 1 and celebiation of the natural black identity, can be found In contemporaiy undeigrotnid hip hop culture.

Although the extended significance that this movement had was tremendous, the

Black Arts Movement can rarely be found in histoiy or English textbooks. This was mainly because of their radical ideas, and the "anti-white" message and reverse-racism stereotype ihat is often associated with ihe Black Power concept. It brought about an attitude of black self-sufficiency (i.e. independent publishing), and it was special in that because there had been no previous black literaiy or artistic movement in wliich blacks were self-reliant. It is considered to be one of the most infiuential literary movements in black and AXmerican history, and is one of ihe most imporiani. Even more so tlian ihe

Harlem Renaissance, that period in the 1920s in which the black arts fiourished, bul only with the assistance of whiles. It is consideied io be more important ihan the Hariem

Renaissance because it proved that black artists could be independenl and self-sufficient and emphasize Ihe beauty of their culture, which links to their concept of a Black

Aesthetic.

In The Black Aesthetic, Gayle describes the shift that occurred belween the

Harlem Renaissance and the Black Aits Movement:

The black artist of the pasl woiked with ihe while public in mind. The

Guidelines by which he measured his production was its acceptance or

Rejection by white people...The invisible censor, while power, hovered

Over him in Ihe sanctuary of his private room... he debated about what he

Could say to the worid without bringing censure upon liimself.. The result

Was usually an artistic creation filled with half-lmths. (xxi) Rai IS

In ihis statement, Gayle explains that before the Black Arts Movement, black artists had to omit cerlain realities about their lives that they felt White America svould noi be receptive to. The main difference between ihe Harlem Renaissance and ihe Black Arts

Movement that during the 1960s, a black artist was allowed lo be complelely honest, atid that he has slopped appealing to whites for approval of his work. As Gayle states, "[his purpose is] to point out lo black people the tme extent of the conlrol exercised upon them by the American society, in the hope that a process of de-Americanization will occur in eveiy black community in the nation. The problem of ihe de-Americanization of black people lies at the heart of the Black Aesthetic" (xxi-xxii). In this statenieni, Gayle is citing the duality of black people and the conflict they experienced of choosing belween their Americanism and their sense of black pride. The main purpose of the writing at ihat period was to make blacks realize thai having pride in themselves was more important ihan fitting info inaiiistream America. In ihe Harlem Renaissance, ii was artists becoming well known for adapting white literaiy styles to conform lo their environment and in ihe

Black Alts Movement, il was black artists creating iheir own style and presenting il solely to their community, which emphasized racial unity and identity.

As scholar Charies H. Fuller writes: "Il is a manner of self-expression and arlisfic

Ibrm born directly fiom the collective social situation in which ihe Afro-American found himself in ihis country" (as qtd. in Nelson). In a contemporary review of The Black

Aesthetic by Thomas Lask in the New York Times, "What we have here is a people trying lo shed itself of a cultural inheritance that ii unconsciously and sometimes unwillingly absorbed and to start anew" (27). Rai 19

"Inlerview Transcription"

Interviewee/Nairator: E. Ethelbert Miller Inteiviewer: Mona Rai Location: Mr. Miller's home, Washington DC Date: December 15,2003 This intei'view was reviewed and edited by Mi". Miller

Mona Rai: This is Mona Rai, I'm interviewing E. Ethelbert Miller as part of the

American Century Oral Hisloiy Project on December 15, 2003, at his residence. When and where were you born?

E. Ethelbert Miller: I was born in New York City in 1950, November, 20, 1950 io be exact.

MR: What was your childhood like, what was il like growing up as an Afi ican American in America during that time'^

EEM: Well, I think growing up in 1950s and 1960s was a good time lo grow up, especially in New York. My family's roots link me to ihe West Indies. I grew up in a neighborhood that more people know aboul now because of people like Colin Powell and

Stokely Carmichael. There was a strong emphasis placed on education, and I say that because my mother and father were working class individuals, bul they knew that for their cliildren to get ahead, school and studying was very important, so we were not young people who could go out and, run the streets, so to speak. I know my brother and sister, we had maybe one or two very close friends, and that was it. I felt that integration played a key role,in terms of my education because 1 had the opportunity to go to

Christopher Columbus High Scliool, which was a very good school in a predominantly white neighborhood, this would take place in the early sixties, where some of those schools were charged to, integrate, and so what happens is that my junior high school Rai 20

#120, they selected maybe four, five African American kids from that school to go io ihis very good public school. I wasn't the best academic student, I was like the siudeni that everyone liked, so I think the teachers sort of picked me like I would be like a Jackie

Robinson representative of the race (laughs), and so, when I look at that I look at the fact that periiaps if I didn'i go to Columbus High School, I mean, I might never had the opportunity lo go to college. I say that because Columbus, al that time, if you look ai statistics, almost all their students went on to college, primarily places like City, and

Columbia University, New York schools. So, that was a veiy important thing for me growing up in New York, was io have access to that lype of education. I feel also h was veiy imporiani for me growing up in ihe Bronx, because I could see a changing neighborhood, where, when I was in elementary school, it was very diverse. My first girlfiiend was Cliinese, other people in the school were from Poland, parts of Russia. But then, when I wenl into junior higli school, my family moved into a predominantly Afiican

American, Puerto Rican neighborhood. So prior io coming to D.C, I came out of a much more multicultural background than what was found here in Washington D. C.

MR; Why did you choose to go to an ail-Black university?

EEM: (laughs) It was very simple. I decided to go off io Howard Universily to find a wife (laughs), you lake an all-Black institution, and I guess the numbers are jusl bigger, you have a good opportunity to find an educated, African American woman. I say that jokingly, but that was what I was looking at, al that particular time. I knew also I didn't want lo stay in New York, also I ihink, affordability comes into it. When you look at ii, back then as well as now, Howard still offers a low budget education. A good education at a low budget, as opposed to some of the other schools, so I tliink that's a key thing. Rai 21

Coming lo an all-Black school—I don't tliink that was really a major decision on my pari, the way when I talk to many other young people, that plays a factor. I think that, tliis probably would go back to my parents, unlike other people, they didn't grow up knowing about Tuskegee , Hampton and Howard. In fact, my first connection with Floward, and probably was the reason why I attended, was that al Columbus High School, there was one Black teacher, and he was from Howard Universily, and ihat was probably my first introduction, to, well, the school exists. 1 do remember coming back from Washington one break, and 1 was in Greenwich Village, at a bookstore, and this guy said, "Oh, what school you go to'*" and I said, "Oh, I'm at—Em going to college at Howard University."

"Howard University?" he said, "How many Black people are there?" (laughs) And I said,

"ft's all Black." And he was like, "All Black?" He couldn't believe it. We take these historic Black schools for granted, bul thai doesn't mean that, in different parts of the country, people know that they exist.

MR: What was it like being a student at Howard University in ihe midst of the Black

Arts Movement during this kind of, underground, cultural revolution?

EEM: Well, when you look at the 1960s, you have to look at the movement, at the movement especially taking place among young people, whether you were in SNCC

[Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee] or any other organization. I wound up coming to Howard University just a few years after people like Stokely Carmichael and others were active on ihe campus in terms of the non-violent movemenl. The year prior to my admission, 1967, there had been a major takeover of Howard University, and when we go back and look al the sixties, we're not jusl looking al protests, we're not just looking at riots, we're looking at the student movement. Howard University had one of Rai 22

the more important student movements, and one of the most successful ones. Now, when

we look at, carefully, what the issues were, one was around Robin Gregoiy being the firsl

homecoming queen lo have an afio. The key issue was protesting ROTC, which was

mandatory, and keep in mind that at this particular time the Vietnam War was going on,

many people say, "Okay, I wani to go off and get an education, I don't want to become a

soldier," so that was an issue. As well as the fact thai you could attend a historic Black

school and not learn, perhaps, anything about your culture, unless you took a class that

was conducted by one of the so-called, "race men," like a Sterling Brown or E. Franklin

Frazier, Other than that, there wasn't any sort of, Afro-American Studies departmenl or

things of that sort. And with the changing Black consciousness, many students saw that

and this is one of the issues that, well, "Hey, we want our education to be more relevant

because we want to attend these insiitulions, learn skills, and go back and help improve

our community." So I arrived on the campus in that sort of climate. I arrived on the

campus right as a new presideni would begin to be pushed in and the old one pushed out.

And so it was a time when you could walk across the campus and see H. Rap Brown, and

Slokely Carmichael. I was on the campus in '69 when we had the key conference

"Towards A Black University" where people wanted to change the name of the college.

So at that time, this sorl of radicalism, sort of really baptized me, I'm in my dorm and I'm

beginning to be introduced to the writers of the Black Arts Movement. I'm seeing them

read on campus. So, all of a sudden, I'm hearing Baraka, Sanchez and Nikki Giovanni,

and this changed me, in lemis of pulling me inlo the arts, bul also making me much more

aware of the importance of African American culture. Rai 23

MR: So you would say that Baraka and Giovanni and Sanchez were ihe ones ihal infiuenced you the most?

EEM: Well, in terms of my reading, 1 think I was very foriunale to have some of my early teachers at Howard, Jennifer Jordan, Bill Thomas. These teachers, when I look back, were very young. Jennifer Jordan, I tliink, ii might have been her firsi year teaching. She was young, very dynamic, a little afro, and so you fall in love wilh a

teacher like ihat. She introduced me to Laiigston Hughes. I began io write my Hitle poems on paper, I would look for ihem during office hours and take my work to them. And, especially people like Bill Thomas, they were very encouraging, very encouraging, in terms of, "Oh, this is more important than the term paper," "write some more poems."

And that type of encouragement is very important when you start oui as a writer.

MR: So, what was it about tliis lileraiuie that touched people, as il touched you?

EEM: I ihink firsi of all when you look ai the poetry, ii's poetry that's accessible, it's poeliy that's easy to understand, so that's in terms of style and stmciure. Even writers like Gwendolyn Brooks, as she moves into the 1960s, will move from writing in tenns of strict form inio fiee verse, and I think that in this case, she got caught up in the movement, and began io change her work in terms of structure, and I think that she turned her work towards poetry that would be easily understood and appreciated. Poetiy now had a goal. It was functional, trying lo raise people's consciousness, poetiy that was sorl of instructional, something people would say was didactic, but it was poetiy that was lalking about revolution. Il dealt very strongly with identity, of being Black, having an afro, wearing African clothes, taking African names, all these things are Ihere. Behind it, though, is work, when we look at il, especially now, looking back, was also work that had Rai 24 a strong spiritual component. Some of ihat came Ihrough the fact that many of the writers and artists in the 1960s were influenced by Islam. Some of ihal came because of the

Elijah Muhammad, the Nation of Islam and Malcolm X. Bul, when you look at some of the work, it's not just calling for the destmclion of cerlain things, il's calling for the building something, it's calling for renewing one's spirit, finding oneself, and all of those are very important themes. 1 tliink that when we look al the literature loday, we can see how it helped change and put America on a new track.

MR: Do you agree with Larry Neal when he says that "[Euro-American] cultural sensibility, anti-human in nature, has, until recently, dominated the psyches of most

Black artists and intellectuals, and thai it musl be destroyed before the Black creative arlist can have a meaningful role in the transformation of society"? It was from The Black

Aesthetic (laughs).

EEM: (laughs) Larry Neal, one respects Larry Neal immediately because when we look at some of the theoieiical architects of the Black Arts Movement, Larry is probably key. I would probably put LaiTy Neal before Baraka, in temis of being a theoretician, and even

Baraka would sorl of acknowledge the importance of Lariy. Larry's very visionaiy. I think he was right. I think when you look at Black people, in terms of where we are culturally, and we look at cullure as a tool that can help change conditions in sociely, change your mind, then there are certain things, I won't say that have to be destroyed, but that have to be—you have to be sort of reeducated, I mean, that's what we're lalking about. Many of us are probably bombarded with things which are very negative, and generally we tliink about Black culture, things are very negative whenever we tliink about

Africa, so you have to struggle jusl to block that out, and that's if you're an educated Rai 25 person. You lake somebody else who has less education, who pretty much is happy with what's presented in the various foinis of media, they will have a very negative way of looking at themselves. They may take on certain characteristics and try to imitate other people, other cultures because they feel that's good, and what they have is bad. And, if we look at it from a psychological perspective, it's noi healthy,, it's sort of schizo. You look in the mirror, and you wani lo be someone else, and so you say to yourself, perhaps, when we look at our race, we are ill, that when you look ai the violence ihai we inflict on each other, as well as the self-hatred, how we might mutilate our bodies, and things of that sort. Well, that is a form of self-haired, so if we look at ihe race as being ill or being sick, then what is ihe treatment? If we start talking aboul ireatment after ihe diagnosis, then we talk about how do we place someone on a healthy diet? How do we help somebody in terms of preventive medicine? Well, then someone would say, okay, here's some positive images, lake two and see me in the morning (laughs). And that's the tiling that a lot of writing and art, I think art can do that. I tliink when we look al how a movie can come out and change our dress, or a movie can come out and change our language, we see the power thai it has. So what we're saying, in terms of Black ail, especially back then, is how can we sort of re-program this, you see? How can we put forth images thai will make people think differently? Well, look what we tried to do, if you go back, in the

1960s, moving away from literature and poetry, you will see (hat there was this very strong mural movemenl where people were painting on walls, abandoned buildings, and what were they doing? They were, in many communities, putting heroes and heroines up.

Pictures of Malcolm X and John Coltrane, so thai they would transform a poor neighborhood. Wliere you had abandoned buildings, this is a way of, soil of, Rai 26

beautification, the sort of tiling that you can do without really getting anyone's approval..

I think if you go back , people wore afros to soil of enhance what they felt was their self- beauty, all these things were small tilings io do in terms of irying to correct our images.

Did a revolution take place? Well, 1 would say yes, and the way lo easily measure it is by looking at the fact thai, in ihe beginning of the 1960s, we were colored people, Negroes, whatever. At the end of the 1960s, we were either Afro-Am eric an. Black, or whatever;

something happened in between 1960 and 1969, and that I think was a revolution. And, what are we saying? Being revolutionary means that you have to kill or destroy those negative things in you. Okay, now fast-forwarding up to ihe present, going ihrough what we've seen unfold the SOs and 90s, a new Black Aesthetic, a new Black movement, with younger people, people who might be of mixed heritage, say well, "I can be black and I can be this." "I know who I am. If I wani io Hsten to Chopin or Bach , anything like that,

I can." So, you see a sort of balance, the same way today you look at how we celebrate

Kwanzaa, okay, we celebrate Kwanzaa, well, like after Cluistmas, you see? Oh yeah, I have my Christmas tree and I have my liltle Kwanzaa candles on the twenty-sixth. Well, if you go back to '69 and '70, when people were celebrating Kwanzaa, il was almost like an allemalive lo Christmas. People who celebrated Kwanzaa celebrated Kwanzaa, but then as the years would unfold, especially as ihe Black middle class became much more accepting lo it, they saw we could do both. I have my Christmas tree and I have my

Kwanzaa and stuff, and that's the balance. You don't have to destroy your Cluistmas tree and your baby Jesus you can keep that as well, and I ihink that shows you how far we've come over ihe last several years. Rai 27

MR: So, what do you think was the influence tliat Malcolm X did have on the Black Aits

Movement?

EEM: Well, without Malcolm X, firsl of all, you don't get the Black rhetoric, and I look

at Malcolm as a poet, the same way I look at Martin Lulhei- King, they represent the oral

tradition. When you listen lo Malcolm's speeches, you're listening to the oral tradition of

African American literature. This is why it's veiy simple and easy for a rap group lo lake,

snatches out of his speeches and incorporate it inio their compositions, because il is

musical and it is a fonn of poelry, ii is a form of rap, and so Malcolm represents that. But, what does Malcolm represent in terms of our transformation? Well, first of all, Malcolm

represents Islam, you see, and people might try lo downplay that, in terms of Malcolm is,

a proud Black man, this and that, and Malcolm's a Muslim, and the key thing lo look at is

ihere is Malcolm X and there is El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz. This is veiy important, because we celebrate Malcolm, and wtien we celebrate Malcolm X, we celebrate the

Black Nationalist, we're celebialing the person who was made possible because of ihe

Honorable Elijah Muhammad. Go back and read the eulogy in '65 thai Ossie Davis delivered. It's a beautiful eulogy.

MR: I read about that, because I read The Autobiography of Malcolm X.

EEM: Right.

MR: Righl.

EEM: Right. And what happens is that if you look at the eulogy, one thing that's left out

is that Ossie Davis makes no reference to Malcolm being Muslim, which is key to who he

was. But, Malcolm also represents, as Ossie Davis said in liis eulogy, he represents the essence of manhood, pride, he knew who he was, so all these things that we feel is Rai 28

responsible for black people seeing themselves in a new light, Malcolm is the

embodiment of tliat. When you're listening lo Sonia Sanchez talk about Malcolm, the first time seeing him and things of that sort, what came out of all of it was here is a positive Black man, people were in love with Malcolm, there was like some sexual thing going on, so, that has to be acknowledged, because Malcolm represents that. Tlien the other thing, and litis comes out of just reading Kwame Ture's book, the other thing aboul

Malcolm, he was very gentle, very kind, very respectful. Now some of that was Muslim training, bul, that becomes so imporlant, in terms of mobilizing people, because there's a sense of humility, you see, and then, as Kwame talks about, in here (points to book beside him), is Malcolm was very charismatic, and whal's hiteresting is how Kwame talks aboul

Malcolm and Martin Luther King, who he knew well, he said that if Malcolm walked inlo a room, you knew it.

MR: Just the way he was?

EEM: Right. He said King could be in a room and he could be the guy in ihe corner, now of course, when he gets up to speak, you see, he had a presence. Bul he said you'd be in a room King would be over there, eating a filed fish sandwich, or something like that, and he's just another guy, in the room, and I think that's interesting because so much of

Malcolm, that we know comes thiough fiom the film clips and tilings of that sort, and if you take footage of Malcolm today and you jusi show it to a group of young kids and what happens is that you get a sense of how articulate he was. Malcolm X, and tliis is most important, was able to take our problems, our slmggles and reduce it down to a language that the man in the sireet could understand, okay, and then what happened, he was also very clear, very defiant, in tenns of, "Okay, make sure we know what the Rai 29 stmggle's about, make sure we know what words we use," especially words like

"revolution," Malcolm reminds us don't use this without knowing what it is. Revolution means bloodshed and violence and things of thai sort, and unless you're prepared for ihat, don't use that, he also was responsible for making us aware of the inlernaiional aspect of the movement, so he's like saying, okay, The Civil Rights Movement might be focused on Mississippi and Alabama, but you have to know what's going on in the Congo, you have to know what's going on in Vietnam, to see the international connection, that's very important. Also, Malcolm becomes veiy important because our movemenl begins to move from the South to the North, and I think that what happens is that, Malcolm becomes that prophet. I think it's veiy prophetic, the fact that he died in 1965, and a few months later, you see Watts explode, and I feel he could see cerlain things happening, and so he's veiy, veiy important. The other person that should be placed, and given more credit, and tliis goes back to something Baraka said at Jimmy Baldwin's fianeral, I think in '87. He mentioned that he felt that ihe Black Ails Movemenl began wilh Jimmy

Baldwin's play, Blues for Mr. Charlie.

MR: How did the Black Aits Movemenl affect whites' perception of black literature or black society as a whole?

EEM: Well, some people didn't gel it. Some people felt that fhe work was attacking them, many people felt that the work was filled with hatred, and this is even some of the black critics. But keep in mind, if you got woik, and people are calling you "devil," and this and that, you're gonna take offense by that (laughs), but what happens is it was also a thing in terms of, especially wliite people having to accept that the work was really not about them, ihai it rarely was, ii was about black people needing to save each other, and Rai 30

so that's important to know. Also, some people were frightened by it, because you did have words like "revolution," you did have words like "black power" in the text. And

these are tenns that people would say, "Okay, if 1 don'i know what it means, I'd better define it my way," you see, and so you have thai battle. You also see, during the entire

Black Alts Movement, a key issue being race, and thai is, "Wliat is the role of the white critic?", can a white person undei stand a black poem, or tilings of that sort? And some people were very good, you can't go back and look at Afiican American literature without looking at the present contribution of key scholars who did Ihe research and, i mean everi today when you look at .African American studies, there are a number of white scholars, who play a key role in lemis of the presen/ation of our literature and art.

MR: So, how do you think the Black Arts Movement affected black society, or American society?

EEM: When you look at where we are today, especially since 1966, it's been a total iransfoitnalion in tenns of where we are, positions that we hold. 1 don't tliink ihese things would have been obtained, unless you had a movement that sort of, of pushed America against the wall and was talking about the various riots, if you go back and look at some of the documents that came out of Hoover's office, with tlie FBI, he really felt that this countiy was being overtliiown, and you see ihat ihe threat was real, and in tenns of what people were concenied aboui. But, what happens is ihai we see ihis transfomiation in our society. If someone was to say, "Oh, we're a better society today than we were in, say,

'61," we would have to agree that we are. If we say, for example, "Did we lose a number of people along the way?"; yes we did. "Did a number of people change?", yes they did, wliite as well as black. I mean, if you look at it, how Govemor Wallace changed, I mean. Rai 3 and it's difficult, because what you're saying, is when you're talking about Black art and

Black Power, you're lalking about people beginning lo see themselves in a diflerent liglit.

Now, what Baldwin would say, he would say thai as soon as black people, who have been on ihe bottom, as soon as they could, they would say, "Hey, look at me," what happened, lliey throw everything oft", you see, so as soon as a black person writes a book, then, if we have been on the bottom, okay, and we now decide, well, hey, we don'l want to be on the bottom anymore, then everything, becomes, a crisis now. And that's what we saw happening, is that all of a sudden, there was a ciisis in the white conununity, you see, and that leads all tlie way up until today, where you have young wliite kids who are totally alienated, and all this emphasis on multicultural, and sluff like ihis, and I'm black, and you got rap, you got all this, you got all that, I'm while, and what do 1 do? Eiiher I have lo embrace it, you have white people who are trying to get it, or wliat happens, there's anger at it. You see, and you get that sort of reaction, what I mean, backlash, because what happens is that for young while people coming of age, the worid is too colorful, and where do they fit in? Arid because ihey don'i fit in, they have an identity problem. If you have an identity problem, you don't know who you are, you will become very violent in an attempt to reclaim your identity. You see, this is where fascism conies in tilings of that sorl, so that's a thing to look at.

MR: Whai do you think was ihe end of the Black Arts Movement, because I was reading in my research and there, ihey said ihat tliere were several events that contributed to il, like...

EEM: (nodding) Yes. Well, you can't say movements end the same way you can't say, okay, where did the movement began. I mean, if you go back and look even at Lany Rai 32

Neal's work, he talked about tliis stmggle, this movement being an ongoing one, and that's just the motion of histoiy. So, it's not like, okay. Lord of ihe Rings part one

(laughs), it doesn't begin and end that way. We can see a certain transformation, taking place. I think if I'm a historian, social historian, I look at the Sixth Pan African Congress in 1974 as probably being the end of the Black Aits Movement. The teason for thai is that il's a point in wliich we see the black movement moving away from nationalism. If we use someone like Baraka, we see in 1974, Baraka has preiiy much left black nationalism, he becomes a Marxist-Leninist. And what does that mean? It means now that he's not simply looking al race, as the determining factor of eveiything, he's looking al class, he's looking ai ail these other issues. So, after all of that, you begin seeing, changing, the movement, but you always have ihese events going on, you see. Which just continues ii, all the way up till loday, so if I was to go oul here loday, looking al the Black Aits

Movement, and if it survived, I think it does. I look at the work that Marita Golden is doing wilh the development of her HurstonAVright Foundation, the poets Toi Deiicotte and Cornelius Eady started Cave Canem for African American poets, and what do we say? If we look at the Black Aits Movement, and what people were calling for back ihen, it was institution-building, you see, and we're still doing that. It took us all these years, to get the revenue and resources, bul we haven't changed, we haven't gotten away from ihat, you see, we still have organizations that are primarily directed towards black people. It seems like, every two or three years, someone raises a question, "A\^ell, what do we think about the black colleges?", well, this has been a thing that we realize, if we go back to the Black Arts Movement and Black Power, and we need these institutions if we're going to develop, you see, in tenns of moving a whole race of people fiom A to B. Rai 33

And these are the challenges that if you were a leader at the turn of the centuiy coming out of Reconstmclion, how do you move the masses of black people from plantations into citizenship'^ Well, you need black institutions, not everything is going to be done by the federal government.

MR: Righl.

EEM: And those institutions are pretty much developed by those individuals witliin them who are nationalists, who say, okay, "I wani lo build something of my own. I wani to own these types of things,"

MR: So what do you feel the Black Arts Movement did that the Flariem Renaissance could not?

EEM: Oh, well, a lol. 1 think, right there, in terms of looking at ihe two movements.

Tliey're totally iwo different movements. One is that the Harlem Renaissance, in terms of even tlie ait and work, is focused towards white people, like showing, okay, "I can paint,

I can draw," "I am human." I mean, that's what that's about, with a little bit like "Oh,

Africa's nice to me," I mean, that's what that's about. When you deal with the Black Arts

Movement, a key thing is thai you're dealing wiih a period of lime in wliich it's a revolutionary period. People were trying to create revolutionary art and you have to respect that. If you just look at il as just black literature, it's not revolutionaiy, and you've missed the point. There's a big difference between the Black Aits Movement and what we would consider the Harlem Renaissance or New Negro Movement.

MR: Wliere do you tliink the Black Arts Movement fits in the overall "rights revolutions" that took place during the 1960s, like, where do you think it stands in Rai 34 relation to the Civil Rights Movemenl or ihe Gay Rights Movement or the Women's

Rights Movemenl?

EEM; Well, see all the movements are connected, so for example, we say, okay, here's the Black Power Movemenl, the Black Arts Movement, well thai just evolved out of the

Civil Rights Movement. That evolved as the movement moved from the South to the

North, okay. Now witliin the movement, you have people who, somebody just like

Bayard Rustiii, who was gay, you have within movements people who are learning certain skills and things of that sorl, and then as other issues develop they become more committed toward struggling around something else. But they get their orientation, they get their skills, they gel their training, say, in one movemenl. Some while people, coming ihrough ihe sixties, they got, maybe, their baptism, and maybe became radical, around the war. Then as the seventies unfolded, maybe Ihey moved inlo a feminist movement, women's struggles. Or maybe all of a sudden, Ihey decide maybe they became gay. And then, all of a sudden, wiiat happens? Gay issues became important, but if you look at their background, they might have been doing voter registration in Mississippi, that's how the movements are connected. And then you have people, who, like Audre Lorde would say, you have your many selves, people who are this, this, and this. And so they're involved in all of tills, somebody's gay, somebody's black, somebody's a mother. And so when you look at what they're involved in, they're involved in several movements, and you can see that when we go back to the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power Movement, it radicalized all the other ethnic groups, I remember, for example, Puerto Ricaiis developing their Young Lord Parly; Native Americans' stmggle became their emphasis, in fact after the Black Power was proclaimed in '66, they were about to say, "Red Rai 35

Power!" (laughs). And all thai happened. Why? Because the people on the bottom decided io change themselves.

MR: So if, and I said tliis before, thai il's hard lo find this in, like, a conventional high school textbook, like in histoiy or in English, so I was wondering if there was anything you would wani to put in a chapter in a textbook about the Black Arts Movement. What would you include in thaf^

EEM: Well, see what happens is that one of the things that the Black Arts Movement will tell you is that ihe textbook is wrong (laughs). So, as opposed to jusl looking at this chapter that's going to be on the Black Arts/Black Power Movement, you'd have io say,

"Okay, how does tliis textbook open up? Wliat is it now ihai goes into the early chapters,"

How is America being settled? What's happening lo ihe indigenous people? Whal's happening to black people—you know. All these issues are there, you see, because when you look at the Black Power Movement, and all these things that emerged in the sixties, people think, "Wait, we were denied certain Constilutional issues and sluft^, we were written out of certain things," and so what happen, unless you go back and have a textbook, and I guess the best would probably be some of the work by Howard Zinn, where you gel this hislory of the people, the textbooks are wrong. So youjust can't say,

"Okay, I'll just add a chapter, a side order of Black Arts Movement," thai's not gonna make it. All the other chapters are wrong, say, or certain things iiave been omitted. So this is why, what happens now is that the battle over the textbooks, and we could find you a survey and look at how the Civil Rights/Black Power/Black Arts Movemenl is presented in textbooks, and whai would we see immediately? Omission, you see, the same way the Civil Rights Movement is reduced down to the "I Have a Dream" speech Rai 36 by King, okay, and then we go from there to Bill Cliiiion, know what I mean (laughs).

And what happens is that people don't want to look at some of the issues. We have a textbook and we are going io emphasize King's "I Have a Dream" speech, it'll be really great. Well, if we really (?asked?) about the histoiy, just a few weeks after he gives the speech, you have the bombing of the Binningham church, and the little giris killed in there, well, hello, let's put this together, because what happens the Civil Rights

Movemenl went from tliis high, in this speech down to this actual act, which really radicalized a lot of people, you see, because we're, as I was saying aboul the movement being aboui yotmg people and this and thai, and this total generational split, as soon as you had the killing of the lilile giris in Birmingham, Alabama, all ihe black people, all ihe black people said, "1 don'i know about ihis," and what are they saying? Here are innocent victims, young girls, here's a church, a sacred place, you're talking about a place, ihis is a sacred place that somebody's gonna bomb. People got very angry about thai, you see, coming after the March on Washington. You saw a whole generation of people who were saying, "Maybe I should go gel my gun," or, some people saying, "I question now this integration. Why do 1 want to be integrated with somebody who's gonna to be blowing up churches?" Do you see? So people were raising these kinds of questions around the fact ihat they might not want to be part of ihal, and that's the thing that if you write these textbooks, you have to show that flaw. I think for example, ihe bombing maybe might be more important than the speech because of how it changed so many people around the world. And ihen they catch people, and then they go free, you see, so where's the justice in that? That anger begins to simmer, or you'll have people who knew those young girls, who, years later, will become radicals like Angela Davis. You get Rai 37 people who are like, "Okay, why is so-and-so a radical?" Because they saw their little buddies killed years before.

MR: So you think ihe riots are also an outgrowth of that kind of, sort of anger?

EEM: Righl. And when we look at the textbook, let's look at it like this, are the textbooks really going into the analysis that the riots were good (latighs)? You're noi going lo see thai in the textbooks because you're dealing wilh textbooks. You're dealing with the type of books that's going to be disseminated and distributed lo a large body of people. Now, let's look at the book industry. ?vlosi textbooks have to be bounced off of the biggest consumers of textbooks: Texas.

MR: Yeah,

MR: That's a problem (laughs),

EEiM: Riglil (laughs). What happens, we could be working on a textbook, right? And we have a way of presenting Malcolm X, we'll put Malcolm on ihe cover. What happens is thai hisloiy book is not gomia be picked up by a school system, you see, and somebody might go tlirough ihere and say, well, I tliink ii's very critical of the South, ii don'i mailer if the South lost the Civil War, how it's written to someone who's in Mississippi can say,

"I don'i want this for my school system." So, if you're ihe publisher, whai are you gonna do, you gonna shred ihese? You have to go in terms of what ihat coniract, so you wind up maybe pulling certain words and certain expressions out of the text because you wanl ihe text to be approved by the school system, you don't wani ihe book to be banned; yoti lose money. And then we look at who's writing the textbook, they have lo change.

MR: So it's like sugarcoating the hislory? Rai 38

EEM: Well, 1 don't think il's sugarcoating the histoiy because that's still saying thai you want io tiy to get soinething—il's almost like saying, "Okay, let me show you how to bake tliis." From scratch, the ingredients, see this is why 1 was saying thai you have lo go back to those eariy chapters, the cake that you're making, you're not even using the proper ingredients. Il's like something ihal calls for milk and eggs, and you ptil water in it, so you're diluting it from the start, and ihe eggs, which might be Native Americans, which is key, are left oul. So what does tliis taste like, four or five chapters later? It tastes like something you'd gel off ihe shelf (laughs). And what are we also saying? Finally, thai it's not good for you, you see, because where is this hislory, wliich makes you strong in terms of civilians and (? systems ?) growing up, knowing aboul your countiy, you grow up—whaf^ You grow up wilh some sort of deficiency—vitamin deficiency because you don'l know who you are. You don'l know Chinese-American liistory in the building of Califoniia, You grow up as an American not knowing American history. And that's what's critical, in terms of tiying to change that, and it's a battle over the textbooks. See, marching and chanting and things of that sort, you don't need to look at that, but behind doors, you're like, "How do we decide what news stoiy we're going lo cover, and things of that sort?" That's the real battle. See that's the real battle, and that hasn'i changed.

MR: So what do you ihink is the legacy of the Black Aits Movemenl?

EEM: Well, I think whenever you go out here now, I mean you go to see a movie by

Spike Lee, that's an outgrowth of that, and if you go somewhere and you're listening to

Winston MarseHs, and he's ai the Lincoln Thealre, and I mean he wouldn't get ihere if there wasn't any movement. The freedom now that people have, especially black artists have, to do whatever they want to do, okay, some of that was created because of these Rai 39 people, it just opened up ihe door, people kicked up tilings so ihat you can, now, have a choice. And what did we do'?' We got rid of legal segregation, that doesn't mean you solve all the problems, but we got rid of the laws. So, now what we're talking about is we're just going to enforce certain olher things, we can improve our society. But, there was a point where you couldn't do certain things, and I think one of ihe key Ihings ihat happened is that more young people can aspire to be artists, see iliat's a major change, it means that, let's take Langston. And Langston's battling with his faiher, his fallier wants him to be an engineer, and he wants lo be a writer. Well I think now, because of the

Black Arts Movement, and such successful black artists, a mother can say, "Oh, my son is going to be like the next , he's going to be the next so-and-so," and will tiy and pursue the aits, see, so that's a good thing.

MR: So, would you say that ihere are a lot of elements of the Black Aits Movement present in today's black culture and hip hop culture?

EEM: Oh, sure, I think that the Black Aits Movement survives. I tliink, though, that people today take a little more credit, in terms of not, maybe, emphasizing the blackness of things, because ii seems as if eveiyone wants to be universal and stuff like that. Also, I ihink one of the things ihal sort of affects the Black Arts Movement today is ihat arts back in ihe sixties were veiy socially conscious about why do we write, and why are we doing things. What you have hapj^ening today, affecting many black artists, is the market economy. You have people now who are not writing because they want to raise the consciousness of iheir people, they write because they wanl to get paid (laughs). And, so you're dealing with that, and I respect that, but I'm also veiy critical ofil because you do Rai 40 see the same thing thai happened with the Black Arts Movement, you open ihe door for people to hustle and make money off certain things.

MR; Okay, I tliink that's it. AudioA^ideo Recording Log

1. Interviewer: fA.C)vXL KOU

2. Interviewee: E"> ^M/^Sl\DeJr)r U^ivjfitv^

3. Date of interview: ^C)^££.mtoX l5> '20C&

4. Location of interview: k.C illjiik/"'.^ f(e^^Ctev^Ce-

5. Recording format:

Audio Type: Video Type: Cassette Cassette Micro-cassette v^ Micro-cassette CD CD Digital (DAT) Digital (DAT)

6. In roughly 5-minute intei'vals, suimiiarize interview topics in the order they appear in the recording. Also note the tape # and tape side beginning with Tape 1, Side A.

— I ^ • J Al ^'"^^^ Mark Topics presented in order of discussion in recording Rai 41

"Interview Analysis"

On December 15, 2003,1 traveled to northwest Washington DC, to the home of E.

Ethelbert Miller lo discuss the extended significance of the Black Aits Movement. The

Black Arts Movement was a militant cultural, primarily literary, revolution whose reason

for being was lo promote the self-sufficiency and artistic equity of blacks, Mr. fvliller, a

student al Howard University when the movement was at its peak, was able lo provide

the perspective of an author direclly affected by tlie movement's most influential voices,

such as Amiri Baraka, Larry Neal, Sonia Sanchez, and Nikki Giovanni, Through this

interview with Mr. E. Ethelbert iVliller, it is evident that the Black Arts Movement, which

lasiod fiom 1965 to 1975. changed American and black society in many ways. For

America in the 1960s, it served to prove that black people were capable of expressing

themselves without white financial assistance and helped to spread niulticulturalism

tluoughout the nation. In terms of black society, it proved that the arts was a legitimate

occupation for the youth to pursue. The Black Aits Movement sought cuhural

independence for blacks and, as seen in ihis inlerview. it changed the way wliites saw

black people.

This projeci was an exercise in recording oral histoiy and understanding ihat

everyone has a story to tell. Oral history is essentially a retelling of past events as

interpreted through one's personal narrative, which can be severely affected by that person's background, or as historian Arthur Schlesinger says in The Disuniting of

America: Reflections on a Multicultural Society, one's "unconscious preconceptions"

(52). Oral liistory is also an attempt to capture contemporary testimony which could be

usefijl lo future generations. On most occasions it is most desirable lo get the opinion of Rai 42 people whose opinions are not usually explored by many historians. An e.xample of this is seen in oral historian Donald Ritchie's book. Doing Oral Histoiy: A Practical Guide, when he says ihat in ihe 1930s, the Works Progress Administration (WT'A) hired writers to intei'view those whose lives the goveimneni wanted lo chronicle. The interviews from this project ihat proved to be extremely valuable were those of former slaves, who

"helped to alter fundamentally the Iiistorical interpretation of American slaveiy"(21). Il is also necessary lo supplement the interview wilh a historical context so thai \\ may be easier for others lo interpret. As Ritchie says later in Doing Oral History, "... Such interviews [are] a most valuable conlribution to,..history, but only if used in careful conjunction with more conventional sources, like documenls..." (26), meaning that oral liistories should never be used by themselves.

Historians' opinions on the validity of oral liistoiy interviews depend on the infonnation gathered, but most agree thai a good oral history is also determined by ihe memoiy of the person being interviewed, it is considered much more subjective than a conventional textbook because there is not a balance of viewpoints. Some of the earlier works of oral histoiy have uncovered previously unknown facts about such historical episodes as slavery, pre-Columbus America, and the Great Depression (Ritchie, 20-21).

As E. H. Carr illustrates in his book. What is History?, in and befoie the nineteenth century, historians desired factual information about historical events above all else. They believed in ascertaining the facts, then making their conclusions (919). He also says that history does not become hislory unless it "is accepted by other historians as valid and significant" (922). The historians at that time could also control the flow and quality of infomiation, as well as what "real" hislory was, so the histoiy from this period is Rai 43

considered to be a mixture of interpi elation, gander, and historical fact Cair also argues

that history is something that must exist in coalition to some sort of subjectivity on the

pari of the historian. He states: "...history consists essentially in seeing the past through

the eyes of the preseni...and ihat the main work of the historian is nol to record, bul lo

evaluate, for...how can he know what is worth recording" (927-928)? Carr believes liistoiy and presentism cannot be separated, and that presenlism helps the historian to

evaluate the facts he receives.

The main points of this inleiview were numerous and diverse. One major point thai Mr. Miller made was that the hieraiy works of that period turned from pure

aesthetics to fijiiclional literature and poetiy. One example Miller gives is that of

Gwendolyn Brooks, a writer whose career spanned both the 1950s and 1960s, it was evident that her writing changed, because she moved "from writing in terms of strict fomi.. .into free verse" (Miller 5), and he goes on to say thai the content of her poetry changed as well. It was now trying lo "raise people's consciousness,..that dealt veiy

strongly wilh idenlily" (Miller 6).

He also makes the point that the work of that period was not necessarily "anti-

white," it was more about blacks slrenglhening their own community and accepting

themselves for who they are. When asked whether Lany Neal's interpretation thai the

Euro-American influence, which was evident in the work of black artists since the

Hailern Renaissance, had lo be destroyed before the black artist could property define and present themselves; Mr. Miller explained that he agreed with Neal because not loving who and what you are is a "form of self-hatred" (Miller, 7) and it is not psychologically

healthy. With reference to the need that black people have to build their own Rai 44 communities. Miller says that "you need black institutions, not everything is going to be done by ihe federal government" (16).

Another point that he makes is that Malcolm X is responsible for radicalizing people, and making black people realize that their fight for freedom and equality was a global one. He emphasized a unity within ihe human coinmunity, he emphasized seeing the "international connection" (12) between all oppressed peoples. After the black community became radical, other ethnic groups saw the need to redefine themselves in a militant way as well. One example Miller provides is the Native Americans, who, after seeing blacks proclaim "Black power!" in 1966, were "about to say, "Red Power!" (18).

The historical value of this inleiview may be heightened by the fact ihat this subject matter is very obscure and this interview may have been the first of its kind for lliis sort of project. It was evident, after I looked through several general Iiistorical resources such as textbooks and encyclopedias, thai tliis topic was going to be considerably harder to research than the Holocausl, World War 11, or ihe Great

Depression. I encountered a point in my research that explained why this was so. Because the Black Aits Movement is closely related to the Black Power Movement and its stereotypical "anti-white" message, il was not seen as suitable foi' mainstream American history textbooks. Because of its obscurity, any information that could help others, especially whites, interpret it conectly is extremely valuable. I feel this inlerview does a good job in clarifying the message of this movement and its most influential leaders.

The interyiew does reinforce many points I encountered in my research such as the content in all the poetiy and literature changed drastically throughout the forties, fifties, and sixties. It derived from a writing style that was dictated by classical Euro- Rai 45

American lilerature and the black authors of thai time changed it into something inherently unique and authentic, which portrayed their pride in their race and appearance.

This was seen in the interview on pages five and six, where Miller outlines llie changing style of Gwendolyn Brooks, and ihat the poetiy was geared more toward self-acceptance and self-revelation. This is reinforced by an essay in Addison Gayle's anthology, Tlie

Black Aesthetic, called "The Biack Aesthetic in the Thirties, Forties, and Fifties," by

Dudley Randall. In it, Randall provides quotes from famous black authors of the Harlem

Renaissance who pine for a new form of literature which would properly display the tme

Black American experience. One statement from Langston rluglies demonstrates this need for a separate method for black self-expression: ".. .This is the mountain standing hi the way of any true Negro art in America-—this urge within the race toward whiteness, the desire lo pour racial individuality into the mold of American slaiidardizalion and to be as little Negro and as much American as possible" (qtd in Gayle 225).

The interview says Ihat the Black Aits Movemenl was necessary for all the progress thai black arts has made in the past forty years, and that without it, black people would not be as free to express themselves honestly. Mr. Miller reinforces his poinl by saying that many elements that were present in the Black Arts Movement, such as racial pride, are also present in today's hip hop cullure, a culture which has furthered America's mulliculturalisni. The Black Aits Movement's extended significance primarily is that ii gave black people in America a new, and more honest and authentic way of presenting themselves to their nation and to the world.

One aspect of the Black Arts Movement that was addressed in this inleiview, which may prove to make it more valuable, was that il explored the role ihat whites Rai 46 played in the movement. Miller explains that many while people felt ihat the literature was borne out of hate, and for that reason ihey could not respect it. He says "... many people felt that the work was filled with haired, and iliis was even some of ihe black critics" (12). He also said that whites have lo "accepl ihal the work was really nol about theni...ii was aboul black people needing to save eacli other.,," (13), In order to conectly interprel some of the work that was created in the Black Arts Movement, it was necessaiy to understand its origin, influences, and its purpose. Its purpose was lo awaken black people to their sense of self-pride. They failed io undersland that the movement was more about black growth and redefinition than it was aboul the suppression of the while lifestyle. He also cites the fact that there were wliite scholars who were essential io ihe growth of the black rights movement, "who play a key role in tenns of ihe preservation of our literature and our arf' (Miller 13).

Some weaknesses of the interview were that the interviewer failed to properly ask pertinent follow-up questions, wliich would clarify the reader's understanding of the topic and hs parallels with student movements going on all over the country. For example, when he menlioned on page four that Howard University "had one of ihe most important student movements, and one of the more successful ones," I neglected to ask him to elaborate on the various student movements that were going on al thai time, nor did I ask why they were so successful.

There was also a parallel between the Civil Rights Movement and the Black Aits

Movemenl thai was not explained well and was vague. Some strengths of the interview were ihal Ihe interviewer had background knowledge in black civil rights movemenis, so it was easier for her to identify characteristics of the so-called "black aesthetic." Rai 47

I believe that I have learned ihat ihe Black Arts Movement may not have been a readily identifiable part of American hisloiy, but that it was an important part of black cuUure, and was really essential lo ihe growth of black artists in this country.

Interviewing is also a delicate process which involves simultaneous involvement and comprehension of the material, and wananis a fully conscious interviewer. 1 have learned, basically, that inteiviewing is a process I was never really prepared for, and it was nol as easy as previously suspected. It was a great leaming experience, and 1 do not regret having done this inteiview as ii was informative, my interviewee was extremely accommodating, which I appreciate, and my iopic interested me tremendously. Rai 48

Works Consulted

Baraka, Amiri. Interviewed by Samirah Raheem. 10 Januaiy 1997,

Carr, Edward H. What is History? New York: Vintage Books, 1961.

Cruse, Harold, '/he Crisis of the Negro Jntellecfual. New York: William Morrow and Company Inc., 1967,

Gayle Jr., Addison, ed. The Black Aesthetic. Garden City: Doubleday and Company, 1971.

Haley, Alex. The Autobiography of Malcolm X- New York: Ballantine Books, 1965.

Hiltz, Virginia, and Dr. Michael Sell, "The Black Arts Movement." 3 Feb. 1998. I Dec. 2003.

Jenkins, Sacha, et. al. egotrip's Big Book of Racism. New York; HarperCoHins Publishers, 2002.

Jories, LeRoi, and Lany Neal, ed. Black Fire: An Antliolog)' of Afi-o-American Writing. New York: William Morrow and Company Inc, 1968.

Lask, Thomas. "Why Don't You Jusl Get Lost?" New York Times 23 Jan. 1971. Proquest. 25 Jan, 2004.

Miller, E. Ethelbert. Fathering Words: The Making of cm African American Writer. New York: Thomas Dunne Books, 2000.

. Inleiviewed by Mona Rai, 15 December 2003.

Montgomery, Paul L. "Hariem is as Quiet as News Spreads." New York Times 22 Feb. 1965. Proquest. 25 Jan. 2004.

Nelson, Cary. "Black Arts Movement." 1 Jan. 2000, I Dec. 2003.

Ritchie, Donald A. Doing Oral History: A Practiced Guide. New York: Oxford University Press, 2003.

Schlesinger Jr., Arthur. The Disuniting of America: Refleclioiis on a Multicultural Society. New York: Norton W. W. and Company, Inc. 1998.