Vol. 729 Monday No. 185 18 July 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Election of Lord Speaker Announcement Message from the Queen Questions Thames Tunnel Democratic Republic of Congo Finance: Off-exchange Trading Venues Dyslexia Privacy and Injunctions Committee Membership Motion Five Statutory Instruments Motion to Refer to Grand Committee Fixed-term Parliaments Bill Consideration of CommonsReason Metropolitan Police Service Statement Defence Transformation Statement Local Government Finance Statement Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill Second Reading and Remaining Stages Finance (No. 3) Bill Second Reading and Remaining Stages Finance Bill 2011: EAC Report Motion to Take Note

Grand Committee Education Bill Committee (7th Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 1063 Election of Lord Speaker[18 JULY 2011] Thames Tunnel 1064

The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): My Lords, I House of Lords intend to follow the example of others and not be present for first business on 5 September. Therefore, I Monday, 18 July 2011. trespass on the patience of the House for a single moment to add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, 2.30 pm Lady D’Souza. She has been an effective and distinguished Convenor of the Cross-Bench Peers and I am certain Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield. that she will be an effective and distinguished Lord Speaker. I wish her well in those responsibilities. I express my deepest gratitude to the House for the Election of Lord Speaker honour that it gave to me in entrusting me with the Announcement responsibility of being first Lord Speaker for the past five years. It has been an extraordinary experience and I owe a debt of gratitude to many people in the House 2.36 pm for their support during that time. The Clerk of the Parliaments announced the result of the election for the office of Lord Speaker. Details of Thames Tunnel the votes cast are being made available in the Printed Question Paper Office. The successful candidate was Baroness D’Souza. 2.39 pm Asked By Lord Berkeley Message from the Queen To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the environmental benefits of the proposed Thames 2.36 pm Tunnel. The Lord Chamberlain (Earl Peel): My Lords, I have the honour to notify your Lordships that Her The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Majesty the Queen, having been informed that your for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): Lordships have elected the Baroness D’Souza to be My Lords, the Thames Tunnel proposed by Thames Lord Speaker, has pleasure in confirming your Lordships’ Water would reduce the frequency of spills of untreated choice of her as your Speaker. waste water into the Thames from the current average of once a week during rainfall to three or four times a year, and reduce spill volumes from 39 million cubic Election of Lord Speaker metres annually to around 2.3 million cubic metres. This would meet the dissolved oxygen standards identified 2.37 pm by the Thames Tideway Strategic Study and protect local ecology. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde): My Lords, I am sure the whole House Lord Berkeley: I am grateful to the Minister for that will join me in congratulating the noble Baroness on Answer. I agree with him that the tunnel will help to becoming our next Speaker. I am sure that everybody clean up the Thames but in the process it could make a will wish to join in supporting her and encouraging serious mess of London. One of Thames Water’s her not just in this transition period but throughout proposals is to concrete over most of Barn Elms her term of office. Playing Fields and other greenfield sites and to remove My purpose in rising now is to inform the House spoil by road, involving some 500 trucks passing through that there will be an opportunity to pay tribute to the London every day. Will the Government insist that noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, the Lord Speaker, for Thames Water takes the majority of the spoil out by her distinguished work as Speaker of this House and water down the river, because the line goes under the for being the first holder of the office of Lord Speaker. river? Secondly, will the Government safeguard the That occasion will take place at the start of business necessary brownfield sites, such as the Battersea power on Monday 5 September. station site, to avoid the need to use greenfield sites in the construction? Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I rise briefly as I realise that now is not the time for tributes. Lord Henley: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble However, as Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition in Lord for stressing the importance of the fact that it this House, I just want to convey the very warm will clean up the Thames. That is very important, both congratulations of our Benches to the noble Baroness, in itself and in order to avoid infraction proceedings Lady D’Souza. This is another step in the evolution of under the urban waste water directive. I note the noble our House. We have had another successful election Lord’s other points, which are really matters relating for a Lord Speaker. It is extraordinary that we have to planning issues. Thames Water will be consulting had two women. I know that the noble Baroness will later this year on the route and where to put the have the confidence of the whole House and that she various access points for the tunnels. After that, these will do a splendid job for the Lords, inside and outside are matters that should be left to the planning process Parliament, and for Parliament as a whole. rather than to Government. 1065 Thames Tunnel[LORDS] Thames Tunnel 1066

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, is the Minister consider talking to Thames Water to make sure that aware that the London Group had the benefit of a environmental vandalism to sites such as Barn Elms presentation on this project? It said that one of the does not take place? important features was to allow drainage in London, as the water level is now rising so high that it is Lord Henley: Obviously, we would want to encourage becoming a problem, particularly with the development the use of brownfield sites, where possible, rather than of more basements and sub-basements. greenfield sites. However, I do think that this should be a matter for the planning authorities and the planning Lord Henley: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely process rather than for a diktat from Defra itself. correct in talking about problems of drainage. We have seen, since Bazalgette built the original sewers Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, Defra is some 150 years ago, a vast expansion of London, a currently consulting on these sorts of projects becoming vast increase in the number of people here, and a vast national infrastructure projects and at that point the increase in the number of impermeable surfaces which Minister would have the leverage that he currently tells allow water to drain off far quicker than it did in the us he does not have. I understand the point that he is past, creating serious environmental problems. As part making. However, should he not take a lead, for of this process we need to look at all of those factors example, from the Mayor of London, who is very and all appropriate solutions. happy to interfere and to pass comment wherever he sees fit? Should he not use his influence in this case Lord Aberdare: My Lords, in view of the fact that and listen to what noble Lords have said about the major projects such as the Thames Tideway Tunnel importance of using the river to transport spoil in often fall short in delivering the environmental and order to protect our greenfield sites and to preserve community benefits expected, will the Minister consider the brownfield sites? A meeting would be fairly encouraging Thames Water to establish an independent straightforward and I am sure that Thames Water trust to provide a vehicle for ensuring that those would want to listen to what the noble Lord has to say. benefits are achieved and maximised and that the tunnel project leaves a lasting legacy for London along Lord Henley: My Lords, I would have thought that the lines that Sir Joseph Bazalgette achieved with the what I have said has given some idea of where Ministers original sewer project? in Defra stand on these matters. Again, I think that the planning process should decide the appropriate Lord Henley: My Lords, that is exactly what Thames route, how it is done, where to dig the access tunnels Water is proposing in the plans. That is why it wants to and so on. In the end, we want the right solution for consult on them and why it will have to go through the London and for the customers of Thames Water to planning process in due course. At the end of that ensure that we can get rid of that waste water and that planning process we hope that it will be able to produce we do not have, again and again, the kind of environmental the right tunnel, in the right place, that will produce disasters that we have seen, on a number of occasions, the right benefits. further up the Thames, with vast quantities of dead fish and other such things. Viscount Hanworth: In the 1960s when we were Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I declare an digging the Victoria line tunnel I remember that we interest as a waterman and lighterman. It seems to me caused minimal disruption around London and that that the Government have to take an overview of this. the spoil was carried away directly. Can the Minister Leaving the matter to separate planning authorities tell us why this cannot happen in the case of the can lead to things like the green aspects of using the Thames Tunnel when there is an easy way of carrying river, which are dramatically less harmful to the the spoil away—by the river? environment, being forgotten. The Government ought to take an overview, if not pass legislation on it to Lord Henley: Again, it is a matter for the planning make it happen. I notice that as regards the Olympics process and planning authorities to propose what we have failed abysmally to use the river as much as conditions they think appropriate to impose on Thames was promised. That is a great failure and a loss to the Water. Since it is proposed at the moment that the nation. tunnel should follow the river down, I would have thought it might be possible to have a lot of the access Lord Henley: My Lords, I had a sneaking suspicion points close to the river. It should therefore be possible. that a number of noble Lords in this House, who live However, it is not a matter for Government but for the further west up the Thames, would want to declare an planning process to consider using the river, rather interest in how these building works are to take place. than roads, for disposal of that spoil. Fourteen planning authorities are affected by this and it is one of the problems that has to be dealt with Baroness Kramer: I must declare an interest in that I overall at government level. That does not mean that live by the river and am a member of the Skiff Club in Defra should make the decision; the appropriate planning Teddington and therefore a supporter of the Thames process should take place. Obviously, we will feed in Tunnel. Does the Minister agree that the reason why our views and I have given some indication of a desire greenfield sites such as Barn Elms are at risk is that to use brownfield sites where possible rather than they are cheaper than the brownfield alternatives and greenfield sites. In the end, we must leave this matter that therefore it is a Defra issue? Will the Minister to the planning process. 1067 Thames Tunnel[18 JULY 2011] Democratic Republic of Congo 1068

Democratic Republic of Congo the leader of the LRA, and two of his lieutenants, why Question has MONUSCO been so inadequate in gathering the necessary intelligence to bring these people to justice? 2.47 pm Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is quite Asked By Lord Chidgey right to deplore the endless slaughter and activities To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment which are associated with the Lord’s Resistance Army. they have made of the preparations for the forthcoming It seems to be a negative force both in this country and elections in the Democratic Republic of Congo. in many others. As I said earlier to my noble friend, it is our aim to get the African Union to work very The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth closely with MONUSCO, the second largest UN mission Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, we are in existence, in meeting this problem. The noble Lord, closely following the DRC elections. Despite delays, Lord Alton, asked me why it has not been so effective there has been considerable progress. The election so far; I cannot answer that precisely, but I can only calendar has been published, the electoral law passed, say that we are working extremely hard with other and over 30 million Congolese have registered to vote. countries, with the EU and with our colleagues and There have been reports of harassment of political allies, to reinforce the determination of MONUSCO activists and demonstrations in Kinshasa earlier this and the African Union to meet the problem. This is month led to violence. However, so far we have seen the way forward that we think will be most effective. no sign of systematic attempts to undermine the process. Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, does the The Department for International Development is Minister share concerns about what is clearly providing significant support. the international community’s Congo fatigue, and the Lord Chidgey: I thank my noble friend for that consequent much lower level of engagement in the response. Is he aware that, during a recent visit to the November 2011 election process compared to what DRC, we found that CENI’s electoral calendar was occurred in 2006? Is the Minister aware that, contrary unrealistic and unworkable? For example, in spite of a to what we heard from him, there are predictions that completion date for voter registration at the end of as things stand we risk a situation in Congo such as we June, by July only four out of 11 provinces had been saw in Côte d’Ivoire, which also had a deeply flawed signed off. Is he also aware that, perhaps more worryingly, election? the most serious threat to forthcoming elections is the Lord Howell of Guildford: I hope that on this matter increase in LRA activities, with numbers back at the pessimism of the noble Baroness, who follows 2008 levels; and that MONUSCO, with just 5 per cent these things very closely, is unfounded. Our information of its peacekeepers active in the LRA-controlled areas, is that 31 million people have been registered and that is deeply frustrated by the lack of resources to utilise the organisation of the whole election is going reasonably the intelligence gathered for DDRRR purposes? well. Obviously there are bad examples: there were disturbances in Kinshasa earlier this month, as I Lord Howell of Guildford: I was aware of my noble mentioned. No doubt there have been some instances friend’s recent visit to the DRC and I appreciate his of irregularity, but overall we believe it is going reasonably concerns about the timing of the election. We reckon well. As for the level of participation compared with that the independent national electoral commission, 2006, she is right that the donor support for the to which he referred, CENI, is going reasonably well election this time, as a percentage of the total costs of with its operations. Of course the timetable is tight, the election, is down somewhat from the 2006 levels. but we think that it is just realistic and that it is However, it is still a substantial amount at $176 million, managing to get wider participation and better registration of which we have contributed £31 million. I hope that than some feared earlier. The Lord’s Resistance Army she is wrong, if she does not mind me putting it is a plague, as it were, a trouble which affects both the bluntly, but her warning that this needs watching very DRC and other countries in the region. Our aim is to closely is very apposite and well taken. get the African Union to support and work with MONUSCO, the UN force, in meeting this continuing Lord Avebury: My Lords, if the electoral timetable threat. I fully recognise that it is a problem but if we is not achieved, what plan B is in place to avoid a can get the African Union fully engaged, as we are constitutional vacuum? Considering the large sums of trying to, we believe that we can create the conditions money that we and others have invested in these in which the problem can be addressed effectively. elections, have representations been made to the Government of the DRC to rescind the ban on Radio Lord Alton of Liverpool: The noble Lord, Lord Lisanga Télévision and to refrain from taking any Chidgey, was right to direct the Minister towards the other extra-legal measures against freedom of speech depredations of the Lord’s Resistance Army, in a and freedom of assembly in the run-up to the elections? country where, after all, between 5 million and 6 million people have died in the last 25 years, mainly as a result Lord Howell of Guildford: We have certainly played of marauding militias. Has the Minister seen the report our part, again with international colleagues, allies in today’s Telegraph online about Makombo, where and the European Union, to urge that there should be 321 civilians died and 250 were abducted at the end of proper freedom of expression and freedom of access, last year, and where 26 died and 53 were abducted in as well as opportunity for the media and the printed another raid on 6 July? Given that in 2005 the International press to have full say in the election; that is a very Criminal Court issued indictments against Joseph Kony, important aspect. We have pressed on that, as well as 1069 Democratic Republic of Congo[LORDS] Finance: Off-exchange Trading Venues 1070

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] no real assets behind them, and that that is what led to on other aspects such as observing human rights, the financial crisis? Is it not more worrying that the maintaining regularities, getting full registration and banks cannot wait to get up to the same tricks again, wider participation of women, and all the other necessary and will do so if something is not done to regulate requirements to ensure that this is a free and fair election. them properly?

Finance: Off-exchange Trading Venues Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am no great expert on Question dark matter and black holes, but I think the distinguishing point about dark pools is that they are a venue for 2.54 pm trading that enables confidential orders to be submitted Asked By Baroness Kramer and matched using a reference point that comes from To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment a transparent market. As soon as the trade is done, the they have made of the risk to financial markets of details are reported publicly.Therefore, there is confidential off-exchange trading venues commonly known as trading and then full reporting, which is the critical “dark pools”. feature of the market. Various platforms are available for the market, which accounts for something of the The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord order of 7 per cent of UK and European equity Sassoon): My Lords, the Government strongly support trading. It is not a dominant part of the market by any ongoing initiatives at the European and international means, but it is one that we are watching. levels to improve transparency in financial markets. The International Organisation of Securities Commissions, Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, one of the best moves in IOSCO, has recently agreed a set of principles for the mid-1990s was the creation of the alternative regulating dark pools that will help inform the European investment market, AIM, which has been a great Commission’s ongoing review of the markets in financial success. I was a director of an AIM company that is instruments directive, MiFID. now a FTSE 250 company. However, the biggest problem with AIM was always liquidity. Liquidity is Baroness Kramer: I thank the Minister for that an also issue outside the FTSE 250 on the main Answer. He will be aware that Andrew Haldane of the market. Can the Government do something to improve Bank of England, in a speech a week ago, pointed out liquidity? Should more be done or are they happy with the dominance of dark pools and their high-frequency the situation? trading in many financial markets. Does the Minister agree that the lack of transparency, the price differential Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I certainly agree that suffered by small investors, the implications for corporate mechanisms that help liquidity such as dark pools, governance of nanosecond share ownership and, above which are run by investment banks, multilateral trading all, Andrew Haldane’s concern that liquidity could facilities or independent operators, are indeed aids to disappear rapidly in times of stress all point to a liquidity if they form a proper part of the market. The serious risk to financial stability? Will he continue to proponents of high-frequency trading, too, cite them follow the issue and look at more action by the British as an aid to liquidity. I completely agree with the noble Government, not just at the European level? Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that the last thing we want for Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we should distinguish—as example the European Commission to do is to restrict I am sure my noble friend Lady Kramer does—between sensible increases in liquidity in our markets without the two issues of dark pools and high-frequency trading, looking at the evidence base that needs to be assembled. both of which I am sure noble Lords are very familiar with. Dark pools are akin to what used to be called Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Does the noble Lord “upstairs trading”—off the floor of the Stock Exchange. agree that we can all relax on this question, because we We need to make sure that the benefits of being able to surrendered supervision of our financial services— trade in such an environment, such as competition and choice for investors, do not impinge in any way on Noble Lords: Oh! the transparency and the price-discovery ability of markets. The FSA has done work on that and is Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Yes, my Lords, and to the content that the price-discovery mechanism is not biggest black hole of them all in the shape of the being damaged. European Commission. Do the Government agree High-frequency trading is a very new and slightly that we can surely rely on this body to come up with separate area, although I agree that it is related, and an honest solution to any problem, if only because it it is one on which the Government are doing has not been able to get its own accounts signed off by considerable work. A research project led by the its internal auditors for the last 16 years? Government Office for Science is looking at the possible evolution of computer-generated trading and its Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I certainly do not think implications, and will produce up to 20 papers on the we should relax on the issue of high frequency trading. subject during 2011. We only have to think back to the events of 6 May 2010. I do not need to remind your Lordships that Lord Peston: Are dark pools the same as dark there were two crashes on that day: one was the crash matter, which the astrophysicists tell us permeates the of the outgoing Government; the other was the so-called universe but which no one can observe? Is not the flash crash in which the Dow Jones index plummeted problem that for a considerable period banks and in a number of minutes by 9 per cent but fortunately, other financial institutions marketed paper assets that had unlike the Labour Government, recovered by 9 per cent 1071 Finance: Off-exchange Trading Venues[18 JULY 2011] Dyslexia 1072 a few minutes later. We certainly take this issue very key skill apprenticeships only on a temporary basis seriously but we need to continue to do the work and until autumn 2012, because not enough providers see where this leads us. were geared up to offer the functional skills which we—and which I know that he and employers—actually Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I think the prefer. We are well on the way to providing this. We country should be on its guard when euphemisms wanted to ensure that there was continuation during such as “black pools” are used. I agree with the noble this time. However, it does seem very odd that you can Lord that they are an aid to liquidity but he will get into university or take your GCSE with a functional know—and I am grateful to him for identifying that skill that is not being provided at apprenticeship level. the Government are expressing some anxiety in this I give the noble Lord my personal assurance that I respect—that they restrict transparency in the marketplace. shall make sure that we continue to address this. We all know the price that we have paid for a lack of understanding of what has gone on in the world of Baroness Wall of New Barnet: I support the noble finance and the importance, therefore, of the Government Lord, Lord Addington, in the plea that he has just being concerned to get as much openness and transparency made. As somebody who is involved in apprenticeships as they can. at many levels, this has been an issue for me as well. The sector skills councils have been looking at how Lord Sassoon: My Lords, if they were black holes they will overcome this and I think that some of them as the noble Lord suggests, we would be worried, but have been giving advice to government on it. The for dark pools, IOSCO, the international regulatory parallel which the noble Lord, Lord Addington, organisation, has recently laid down six principles to mentioned is awful. People can get all that support for guide the operation of the regulatory framework of an A-level, and the Government are trying very hard dark pools, and the FSA’s assessment is that the UK to make sure that apprenticeships are as widely available and the EU are fully compliant. as possible, but they cannot get the support that will enable them to learn a skill and get a job. Dyslexia Question Baroness Wilcox: The noble Baroness is absolutely right; it is one of those things that happened. As she 3.02 pm will know, one or two very poor cases have highlighted Asked By Lord Addington the problem, and we are all working very hard to see how we can overcome it. Any input that we can To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress receive, particularly from people with dyslexia, will be has been made in making apprenticeships fully an enormous help. We are consulting very widely on it. accessible to those with dyslexia. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, my younger son has for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): dyslexia. It was lucky that a kindergarten teacher My Lords, we have been taking forward the commitment spotted it early so that from that time onwards we to develop an alternative way for disabled people to have been able to give him help which we hope will demonstrate their suitability for an apprenticeship. We allow him to go on and do anything later on in life. have developed an initial recommendation. The next Are the Government doing enough to train teachers to steps are to confirm wider endorsement of the proposed spot dyslexia at as early an age as possible and to model and focus on implementation. External experts provide the learning support? The Minister’s response continue to advise officials on this and other disability to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, was very encouraging, access issues in apprenticeships. Weare currently reviewing but are they doing the same to help pupils at school? these advisory arrangements and would welcome specialist input on dyslexia. Baroness Wilcox: As the noble Lord will know, the education Bill is currently going through the other Lord Addington: I thank my noble friend for that House and will introduce many things. When it completes reply. Will she confirm that it is an absurdity that its passage a duty will, I hope, be placed on schools to people can get special arrangements to help them make sure that there is good independent advice, through the A-level system whereas dyslexics are failing particularly on careers. However, we are carefully a communication test which they have to take in the monitoring the position at the earlier ages to make apprenticeships process and are thus not being allowed sure that all our children have equal opportunities. We to qualify, when direct access to this qualification really aspire to equal opportunities in this matter as would allow them to earn a living? Is this situation not well. an absurdity, and will the Government assure us that they will report back to the House when they have Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I recognise corrected it? If not, we are going to go back to it again what the Government are doing in relation to this and again. particular problem. However, there is a huge demand for apprenticeships generally and for apprenticeships Baroness Wilcox: The noble Lord is an expert in for people with disabilities specifically. Does the Minister this area and has spoken to me about this question so I agree that it might help if the Government stipulate am able to give him my hope for the reassurance that the need for apprenticeships when they let procurement he is asking for. He is talking about the option of key contracts, placing a special emphasis on those with skills as opposed to functional skills in apprenticeships. disabilities? Should they not act similarly in relation to We have looked at this and extended the options of government departments? 1073 Dyslexia[LORDS] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1074

Baroness Wilcox: I was very interested to hear the That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, noble Lord’s suggestion. I wonder why he did not do it the following members be appointed to the Committee: when his people were in government. L Black of Brentwood, B Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Bp of Chester, B Corston, L Dobbs, Lord Young of Norwood Green: We did. L Gold, L Grabiner, L Harries of Pentregarth, L Hollick, L Janvrin. L Mawhinney, L Myners, Baroness Wilcox: You did, did you? Okay, then I L Thomas of Gresford; have no doubt that we are carrying it forward, as we do with many of the things that you did. What support That the Committee have power to agree with is available for disabled apprentices? Additional funding the Committee appointed by the Commons in the is available, and we are taking forward the work that appointment of a Chairman; you were doing in the past. I am sorry, that was That the Committee have power to send for cheeky. persons, papers and records; That the Committee have power to appoint specialist Baroness Brinton: Is the Minister aware that the advisers; Joint Council for Qualifications guidance is clear on support for students with special needs? Does she That the Committee have leave to report from think that providers should be required, rather than time to time; just following guidance, to ensure that all elements of That the Committee have power to adjourn from the courses are accessible for students with disabilities place to place within the United Kingdom; including dyslexia? That the reports of the Committee from time to time shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment Baroness Wilcox: The answer to that has to be yes. of the House; and It is just how we get there. That the evidence taken by the Committee shall, Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, does the if the Committee so wishes, be published. Minister speak only for people in England who suffer Motion agreed, and a message was sent to the Commons. from dyslexia, or is this also an opportunity for those in the other countries of the United Kingdom? Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 Baroness Wilcox: I am speaking for England today, (Carrying on Regulated Activities by Way so I am assuming that this is a devolved responsibility. of Business) (Amendment) Order 2011 If it is not, I shall come back to the noble Lord with more information. I think that it is definitely a devolved Weights and Measures (Specified responsibility. Quantities) (Unwrapped Bread and Intoxicating Liquor) Order 2011 Privacy and Injunctions Committee Membership Motion Construction Contracts (England) 3.08 pm Exclusion Order 2011 Moved By The Chairman of Committees Scheme for Construction Contracts That the Commons message of 14 July be considered and that a Committee of thirteen Lords (England and Wales) Regulations 1998 be appointed to join with the Committee appointed (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2011 by the Commons to consider privacy and injunctions, including: Landfill (Maximum Landfill Amount) (1) how the statutory and common law on privacy Regulations 2011 and the use of anonymity injunctions and super- Motions to Refer to Grand Committee injunctions has operated in practice; 3.09 pm (2) how best to strike the balance between privacy and freedom of expression, in particular how best Moved By Lord Strathclyde to determine whether there is a public interest in That the draft orders and regulations be referred material concerning people’s private and family life; to a Grand Committee. (3) issues relating to the enforcement of anonymity Motions agreed. injunctions and super-injunctions, including the internet, cross-border jurisdiction within the United Kingdom, parliamentary privilege and the rule of Fixed-term Parliaments Bill law; and Consideration of Commons Reason (4) issues relating to media regulation in this 3.09 pm context, including the role of the Press Complaints The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace Commission and the Office of Communications of Tankerness): My Lords, I beg to move that this (OFCOM); House do not insist on its Amendments 1, 2 and 9. I That the Committee should report by 29 February am sorry—I beg to move that the Commons reasons 2012; be now considered. 1075 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[18 JULY 2011] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1076

another place and has obviously been supported there. Motion A That purpose is that the fixed-term Parliament is not for this Parliament only but, subject of course to the Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness fact that any legislation can be repealed by a future That this House do not insist on its Amendments 1, Parliament, it should nevertheless apply to future 2 and 9 to which the Commons have disagreed for Parliaments. Further, the purpose is to make fixed their Reason 9A. terms for the United Kingdom Parliament the norm, 9A: Because the Commons do not consider it appropriate that just as they are for local government, the devolved the continuing operation of the provisions of the Bill should be legislatures set up by this Parliament, and the European dependent upon periodic resolutions of each House of Parliament. Parliament. This will deny the Executive the ability to choose a date for a general election to suit its own Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, what it is political ends. It will create certainty as to how long a when one does not have the crib sheet Depending on Parliament should last. I ask your Lordships to recall which way we vote, if the opinion of the House is that at Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, tested, we may—or may not—be approaching the noted that we should not forget that the Prime Minister home straight of this Bill. However, it is worth putting is surrendering a significant power in this Bill. on record that it is exactly one year ago this week, on 22 July, that the Bill was introduced in the other place. I also remind your Lordships about what my noble By any reckoning, for a Bill of seven clauses and one friend Lady Stowell said in Committee. She noted that schedule this is quite some time. We are now down to this Bill will, the fact that there is one remaining and outstanding “ensure that the Government and the Opposition had to face the issue. YourLordships’ Amendments 1, 2 and 9 provide electorate on a predetermined date, whatever the political conditions are at that time. That is the most compelling thing about fixed-term that the provisions of the Bill are subject to a sunset Parliaments”.—[Official Report, 15/3/11; col. 223.] clause after the next general election, and each subsequent Parliament would have a choice whether to be a fixed-term In addition to this, many of your Lordships noted Parliament or not. These amendments were passed by that the certainty of a fixed-term Parliament would a your Lordships’ House by a majority of six. The other create better facility to plan across Government, within place has considered these and has sent back a strong Parliament, and beyond. By contrast, if these amendments message in relation to this group of amendments, are accepted, the electorate turning out in May 2015 which they voted to disagree by 312 votes to 243. The will not know what they were voting for. Will they be reason on the Commons Disagreement and Reasons giving the next Parliament a fixed and predictable paper indicates that Commons disagreed because they, term within which to govern or will they be handing to the leader of the next Government a trump card; “do not consider it appropriate that the continuing operation of the provisions of the Bill should be dependent upon periodic namely, the ability to call an election whenever he or resolutions of each House of Parliament”. she thinks it is most opportune? I am, perhaps not surprisingly, in accord with this view. During the debates on this on Report, I indicated It is worth remembering that the Government have that the assumption behind these amendments must been prepared to consider amendments which improve be that in the event a subsequent Parliament is not a the Bill, and indeed we have taken on board a number fixed-term Parliament, the current rules about calling of your Lordships’ suggested amendments. We were elections should apply to that Parliament. I again persuaded that the provision to allow the Prime Minister highlight what a somewhat anomalous and strange to move the date of the election earlier by order was position this will result in. In particular, we presume unnecessary, and that if there was to be an order to that the drafters of the sunset—they are sometimes delay by up to two months, it should be accompanied referred to as sunset or sunrise—provisions would by a statement of reasons. We have tabled amendments mean that the royal prerogative power to dissolve to put back elections to the Scottish Parliament and Parliament would be summoned back into existence Welsh Assembly from May 2015 to May 2016. This for that subsequent Parliament. I assume that that issue was of concern not only in the other place but must be the intention, for how else would Parliament also when the Bill came here for Second Reading. In be dissolved other than by the prerogative unless the particular, and thanks in many respects to the work drafters intend Parliament only to end by reaching the done by and discussions between the former distinguished five-year limit set in the revised septennial Act? Speakers the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, and I wish to make two points about this. First, is it the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, and the right that the existence of a royal prerogative be dependent noble Lord, Lord Howarth, who took the initiative on resolutions of each House not being carried? It with an amendment, and others, we redrew the architecture seems very undesirable to the Government that the of the circumstances in which a vote of no confidence prerogative power may sometimes not exist and sometimes or of dissolution could trigger or lead in turn to an be revived in this way. Secondly, if this is the intention election. This indicates that the Government have of the drafters, it is not at all clear that it has been been willing to listen, and on these points the other achieved in the drafting that they have provided. In place has recognised that this House has done its particular, the presumption in Section 16 of the task as a revising Chamber and has agreed to these Interpretation Act is that where an enactment of a amendments. temporary duration, which the provisions abrogating However, we were not prepared to support amendments the dissolution prerogative appear to be, expires, it that we believe undermine the fundamental purpose does not ordinarily revive anything not in force at the of the Bill—a purpose which was welcomed by the time of the expiry. Admittedly, that may seem to be a Political and Constitutional Reform Committee in technical point but I urge noble Lords to consider that 1077 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[LORDS] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1078

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] that it would not be appropriate to include a sunset what is being proposed here is far from straightforward provision in the European Union Bill. In the final and hidden complexities abound. We should be very debate on that Bill, my noble friend Lord Lamont of careful before giving our approval to what, perhaps at Lerwick wisely noted that a sunset provision was not the very least, can be described as a constitutional appropriate because it would provide for primary novelty. legislation to be reversed by a simple resolution. That As I have indicated, it is important to note that this is the same effect as the sunset amendment would have Parliament did not include sunset clauses when legislating on this Bill, turning important amendments to the for the fixed terms for the Scottish Parliament, the statute book on and off, perhaps somewhat akin to a Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly. light switch. It is also worth noting the report of the Indeed, in this Bill we are extending the fixed term of European Scrutiny Committee in the other place on this parliamentary term for the Scottish Parliament the European Union Bill. Again, I quote: and the Welsh Assembly but doing so by primary “All Parliaments legislate for the future. Laws passed by one legislation. I have heard no convincing arguments to Parliament do not contain a sunset clause at the Dissolution. The explain why we should sunset the fixed terms of the real point is whether a government can, in law, make it difficult for a future Parliament to amend or repeal the legislation it has United Kingdom Parliament. passed; in our view it cannot. Our conclusion therefore is Is a sunset clause necessary to ensure that the issue straightforward—that an Act of Parliament applies until it is of fixed terms, and the merits of this piece of legislation, repealed”. are properly reviewed? Arguably, it is not. This Bill has That should be said also of the Fixed-term Parliaments received thorough scrutiny by four Select Committees— Bill. Should a future Parliament wish to amend or your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, the PCR in repeal the legislation, it can do so, but it should do so the other place, the JCHR and the Delegated Powers through the normal legislative process, not simply by Committee. It has had all of its stages on the Floors of passing a resolution. the respective Houses and the Government have reflected I repeat that, in a number of respects, this House during the progress of the Bill and, as I have indicated, performed valuably the revising and reforming function have made amendments where they feel that these to legislation which is at the core of your Lordships’ improve the overall package. business and that the Government responded to these If a future Parliament decides that it wishes to proposals, but the amendments run contrary to the move away from fixed terms, or if it wishes to amend spirit of the Bill and raise more questions than they what we have provided for, we cannot bind its hands. answer. YourLordships have raised a matter of concern Perhaps it has not been said in this Chamber but it has and have asked the other place to reconsider its position. been said in some of the commentary that somehow The other place has done so. Consistent with the role we are trying to bind the hands of future Parliaments. of your Lordships under our parliamentary system, a Perhaps I may make it clear that that is not the case, role which many noble Lords have been at pains to nor is it the intention. It is clear that we believe that, if suggest does not amount to the making of law but there is to be a change, it should be done through only to its scrutiny, I urge your Lordships to accept the primary legislation, and can be done by means of verdict of the other place and not to insist on the primary legislation. amendments. I beg to move. A change to the fundamental structure of Parliament is not a small matter and we believe that it should be Amendment to the Motion subject to the full scrutiny of Parliament. It should not Moved by Lord Butler of Brockwell be a default option if a resolution fails to be tabled or passed to sunrise provisions for fixed terms. Many As an amendment to Motion A, leave out from noble Lords have expressed concern about what these “House” to end and insert “do insist on its amendments would mean for the relationship with the Amendments 1, 2 and 9”. other place. Arguments have been made that by providing that the Bill could be revived only with a resolution of Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords, in the absence both Houses, we could be undermining the primacy of of my noble friend Lord Pannick, but with his support, the other place. This House would be given a power to it falls to me to urge your Lordships to cause the veto the will of the other place on this matter. I would Government to think again about these amendments ask your Lordships to recall comments made by the which this House passed to the Bill. My noble friend noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, who has asks me to express his regret that other unavoidable contributed notably in our debates on this Bill, when business prevented him being here today. he spoke in the debate on 22 June on the reform of your Lordships’ House. I think that what he said The amendment which your Lordships passed would would be echoed by noble Lords across the Chamber. give the next Parliament and subsequent Parliaments the opportunity to decide whether the provisions of “We are a revising Chamber and a debating Chamber, and valuable in both functions, but we cannot prevail against the this Bill, subjecting them to a fixed term, should apply House of Commons if it wishes to insist. The House of Commons to them. It does not nullify the Bill. It merely gives is sovereign in the matter of law-making”.—[Official Report, future Parliaments the right to disapply it without 22/6/11; col. 1257.] having to go to the lengths of repealing it. In the case of this Bill, the other place has clearly In essence, the case for your Lordships’ amendment indicated that it wants to establish fixed terms as a rule is that a permanent constitutional change to fixed-term that applies equally to each Parliament. Both your Parliaments should not be made without more preparation Lordships’ House and the other place finally decided and consultation than this Bill has had. In the substantial 1079 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[18 JULY 2011] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1080 debate in the other place last week, thoughtful individuals In such circumstances, what would have been the in both the main political parties both spoke and effect of this Bill? The Government would have had to voted for your Lordships’ amendment. A Conservative rely on the Opposition’s support to obtain a dissolution. Member described the Bill as a “reckless” constitutional Proponents of the Bill may say that, in practice, general act, elections would always be available in such circumstances “on the back of an envelope”.—[Official Report, Commons, because Oppositions would never deny themselves the 13/7/11; col. 375.] opportunity to throw the Government out. In that case, the legislation is pointless. However, let us suppose A Labour Member, perhaps better versed in the that they have a point, that there would be circumstances vernacular, described it as tinkering with the constitution, in which a Government would want a reinforced mandate “on the back of a fag packet”.—[Official Report, Commons, to deal with a national crisis and the Opposition, for 13/7/11; col. 373.] whatever reason—shortage of party funds or whatever— As for those who argue, as the Minister did today, that denied them the 75 per cent majority necessary for a it would be open to a future Government who disagreed dissolution. Would that be in the national interest? with the provisions to repeal the Act, the Minister in Can it be right that in such circumstances the Government the other place gave the game away. He asked, if the should be dependent upon their political opponents in Bill became law and fixed-term Parliaments became seeking a fresh mandate from the people? The purpose the norm, of this constitutional change is misconceived. “would any Minister realistically be able to come to the Dispatch A further argument used by the Minister in another Box and suggest with a straight face that we should change the place, over several columns of Hansard—although I position and give the power back to the Prime Minister to hold an noticed that the Minister made only a glancing reference election at a time of his choosing to suit his political party? Would to it today—was that because a decision to reapply the anyone take that proposition seriously? I suggest that they would provisions of the Bill would require a resolution of both not”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/7/11; col. 361.] Houses, your Lordships could deny an elected House So it is clear that the Government intend that this of Commons the right to apply the Bill and thus should be a permanent change to the constitution. undermine the supremacy of the elected House. To my The main case advanced by the Government for the mind, it is appropriate that, if a law is to be reapplied, legislation—what the Minister called today the it is constitutionally right that it should be reapplied “fundamental justification”—is based on a fallacy. I by both Houses of Parliament. I find it inconceivable do not doubt the sincerity of those who argue for it, that in a future Parliament, if the newly elected House but it is a fallacy none the less. It is that the power of a of Commons voted for a fixed-term Parliament, your Prime Minister to seek a dissolution at a time of his or Lordships would overturn that decision. The fact that her choosing gives the governing party an unfair political the Minister relied so much in this argument on another advantage. The Minister went so far today as to describe place illustrates, to my mind, the weakness of the it as a “trump card”. In the real world, the Prime Government’s arguments against the amendment. Minister’s room for manoeuvre is heavily constrained. In normal times, and with a workable parliamentary 3.30 pm majority, it is simply not practical politics for a Prime Finally, the Minister in another place and the Minister Minister to call an election in the first, second, third or in this House today were critical of the drafting of even fourth year of a parliament. It is true that the your Lordships’ amendment. The Minister in another fifth year becomes open season for elections and Prime place was particularly critical of Section 7(4), which Minister’s often seek a dissolution before the last states that a number of parts of the Bill would only moment in order not to be at the mercy of events, but have effect until the first meeting of a new Parliament. the practical advantage this gives is very limited—it is His argument was that this would cause confusion by far short of a trump card. Even the proponents of the reviving provisions repealed by the Bill, and the Minister Bill accept that there should be some flexibility in in this House said something similar today. This, too, the fifth year to allow for unforeseen events such as the suggests to me that the Government’s arguments are BSE epidemic. weak. We all know that if the Government were It follows that it will be only in exceptional minded to accept the principle of the amendment, it circumstances that a Prime Minister will seek a dissolution would be open to them—and indeed normal practice—to in the first, second, third or fourth year of a parliament. table a revised set of amendments in order to avoid As the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, pointed out in our technical defects in your Lordships’ amendments. earlier debates, history shows that these occasions are It is clear from the debates in this House and in never dictated merely by political advantage. In 1966 another place that many Members, on both the and 1974, general elections were called in the second government Benches and the opposition Benches, are and first years of the parliaments respectively in the uneasy about legislating in this way to make a permanent circumstances of a growing economic crisis when the change to our constitutional arrangements without Government did not have a sufficient majority to deal proper consultation, preparation or consideration. It with it. In 1974, a general election was called in the is open to your Lordships, even now, to ask the midst of a miners’strike when the incumbent Government Government in the other place to think again and had exhausted their means of resolving the strike. Can provide an opportunity for future Governments and it be denied in these circumstances that it was in the Parliaments to make their own decision whether to national interest rather than in the Governments’ political subject themselves to this legislation. It would cause interest that the Governments should seek a reinforced the Government no loss to do so, and it is the proper, mandate to deal with these national crises? constitutional way to proceed. I beg to move. 1081 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[LORDS] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1082

Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, the noble Thoroton to reduce the fixed term from five years to Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, has set out fully and four years. However, the Government saw no merit in powerfully the case for your Lordships’ House to that, no doubt because they were very worried that the insist on these amendments. Nevertheless, I would like consequences of their fiscal nihilism and the misery to say a few words in support of the excellent case that and waste that their policies are causing will not have he has made. I do think that it would be right to ask been forgiven, or anywhere near forgiven, in a mere the other place to think again. I do not think that it four-year term. had the opportunity to consider this legislation properly The amendment that your Lordships passed and when, in the new Parliament, it was sent sailing which built a sunset clause into the Bill was the best through—if I may put it this way—a very inexperienced damage limitation that this House was able to offer, new House of Commons. because we rightly have a convention that we do not The Bill was only hastily examined by the Political reject government legislation at Second Reading. The and Constitutional Reform Committee; I do not criticise noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, the committee for that because it had all too little time and his ministerial colleague in the other place, Mr Harper, between the publication of the Bill and the date of have raised various objections to the amendment that Second Reading that the Government had scheduled we passed, but they seem to me to be quibbling very early on indeed. It was then rather perfunctorily amendments. None of them creates such difficulty examined in the Chamber of the House of Commons that, had the Government been willing to accept the before it came to this House. The other place should advice of this House, they would not have been able to have looked at it much more carefully. After all, among refine the legislation to deal with those problems. our powerful objections to the legislation as the We could certainly have thought about whether Government presented it was that the Government your Lordships’ House should approve an order under were playing fast and loose with the role of the Speaker this legislation in a normal way. An argument could and with parliamentary privilege, matters that surely have been mounted that it would not be appropriate one would have expected the House of Commons to for your Lordships’ House, unelected as it is, to decide ponder and take very seriously, but it did not and the itself whether the fixed-term provisions of this legislation legislation went through quickly. should have been renewed, although I am attracted to This is not the moment to rehearse again all the the argument made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler of flaws in this Bill, but, as we bottomed out the issues Brockwell, on that point. Issues such as the royal that the Bill gives rise to in our proceedings here, it prerogative or the exact stage in the new Parliament in became more and more evident that it was bound to which the vote on the order might take place could be a bad Bill because it was seeking to give legislative have been sorted out consequentially had the Government force to a bad idea. It was addressing a non-problem. been willing to accept the advice of your Lordships. There is no evidence that there has been abuse by Nor am I impressed by the argument about consistency. successive Prime Ministers of the right to choose the Just because we have not proposed that we should date of the next election or that the country has undo the fixed terms for the Scottish Parliament or the suffered because successive Prime Ministers have exercised Welsh Assembly, which are being extended under this that right. I do not think that the “will he, won’t he” legislation, it does not follow that we should not seek issue that Mr Harper made so much of in the other to amend the provisions relating to the Parliament at place is a serious problem, and I do not think that the Westminster. A constitution benefits from sensible country considers that it is. anomalies; a constitution that is pragmatically designed This legislation was dressed up as a project to and evolves to take account of the political realities in reduce the power of the Prime Minister and increase different places at different times stands a much better the accountability of government to the people, but it chance of working successfully. did not do that. In fact, it did exactly the reverse. It I appreciated the fact that the Government accepted secured for this Prime Minister the assurance of a some of the amendments that we passed in this House. five-year Parliament and bound the coalition, however They should, after all, surely accept this provision. It unhappy the marriage, into a five-year Parliament. is simple and effective, and would give the House of Far from increasing accountability, it reduced the Commons the opportunity, after the experience of frequency with which electors can be expected to have this five-year Parliament, to confirm or not to confirm the opportunity either to throw the Government out that a fixed-term Parliament would be a permanent or to renew their term at a general election. arrangement. It would, in effect, be an exercise in The typical interval between general elections in post-legislative scrutiny. It seems to me that the most of the 20th century was, we are told, some four Government would do well, in the light of experience, years. By extending the term of Parliament rigidly to to have the modesty to allow reconsideration of a very five years, without allowing the sensible pragmatic contentious and experimental piece of legislation such flexibility that our unwritten constitution has hitherto as this, in the convenient way that the amendment permitted, the legislation would make Governments provides for. and Prime Ministers less accountable to Parliament, As the Minister has emphatically reminded us this not more. afternoon, it would be open to the new Parliament—or, The measure would still have been bad in principle, indeed, to this Parliament should the coalition fall but it might have been somewhat less objectionable apart within five years, which is not at all inconceivable—to had the Government accepted the amendment tabled repeal the legislation. It is, however, much more of a by my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of performance to repeal, whether in this Parliament or 1083 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[18 JULY 2011] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1084 at the beginning of the next Parliament, because it narrow and generally unexpected Conservative victory, involves all the long drawn-out processes of primary although in that election the Sun newspaper famously legislation to achieve in essence the same as your said: Lordships’ amendment would achieve. In all events, “It’s The Sun Wot Won It”. one way or another I hope that Parliament will get rid I know that many noble Lords opposite were candidates of this footling and misguided piece of constitutional for the Labour Party in that election, in which they tinkering. were led by the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock. I ask them to remember the words of their manifesto in 1992, Lord Rennard: My Lords— which said: “This general election was called only after months of on-again, Lord Cormack: My Lords— off-again dithering, which damaged our economy and weakened our democracy. No government with a majority should be allowed to put the interests of party above country as the Conservatives Baroness Verma: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, have done”. Lord Rennard, could carry on and the noble Lord, It concluded: Lord Cormack, could speak after him. “Although an early election will sometimes be necessary, we will introduce as a general rule a fixed parliamentary term”. Lord Rennard: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord The principle of this Bill is to do exactly that. It Butler, will no doubt recall very well from the period upholds a principle that was also in last year’s Labour in early 1992 that there was much speculation about manifesto, which guaranteed to ensure that legislation the likely timing of the general election then due. would be introduced to make sure that we have the Options of April, May and June were all under principle of fixed-term Parliaments. That principle consideration by John Major, and his choice was was also in last year’s Liberal Democrat manifesto based simply on when was most likely to favour his and was one that David Cameron agreed in opposition party in what was expected to be a very close contest. to consider seriously before committing his party to it Indeed, it was a very close contest that was well in the coalition agreement. described in the book I much enjoyed by the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Oareford, entitled Too Close To 3.45 pm Call. It was clear from that account that the advantage The Motion under consideration is not a minor of being able to choose polling day possibly made a revision to the Bill, the central principle of which is decisive difference. that Parliament should decide whether there is good At the time I was involved in helping to prepare the reason to have an early general election, not just a campaign led by my noble friend Lord Ashdown. I potentially opportunistic Prime Minister. The principle was quite shocked to receive a call one day in the of this Bill did not come out of the blue but has been run-up to that election from someone who ran a debated for at least 20 years—sufficient time, I suggest, printing firm. for consideration of that principle. The Bill enacts a principle that puts more power in the hands of Parliament Lord Lamont of Lerwick: The noble Lord says that and reduces the power of Prime Ministers to manipulate John Major was much advantaged by being able to electoral timetables for partisan advantage. choose the date of the election, but he actually chose In many of our debates in this House, I regularly the last possible date. Is that an argument for a fixed-term hear many noble Lords expressing concern about the Parliament? degree of power that can be exercised by a Prime Minister with an overall majority in the other place. If Lord Rennard: My Lords, the last possible date was carried, the Motion proposed by the noble Lord, Lord June of that year. A date that was widely considered Butler, will help to maintain that power for Prime was the May of that year, which coincided with the Ministers in future. We should recognise that the effect local elections. In fact, the date chosen was 9 April, of abandoning the principle of the Bill is simply to which was rather earlier than the last possible date, leave the timing of future general elections to the and was chosen—as the book I have just described whim of a Prime Minister who will inevitably choose accounts—for his advantage. I asked the printer, who the timing to party advantage, not national interest, told me that the date would be 9 April, how he could to his or her own benefit and in ways calculated to know. He told me he was breaking commercial confidence disadvantage opponents. by telling me, but he knew because he was in the Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I hesitate to interrupt process of printing the election address of a then my noble friend, but I feel that he is making a bit of a Cabinet Minister who was able to tell him that the date Second Reading speech. I hope he will not mind if I would be 9 April, and that this date was on the front of ask him a question that has been puzzling me on the his leaflet. It seemed to me that that Cabinet Minister idea of the abuse of prime ministerial patronage. If we had an advantage over other candidates in that election, know the date of the election, is that patronage not and that the ability to print election literature at a time going to be used to ensure that all kinds of goodies are of one’s choosing is just one of the unfair advantages announced before that date, and are Governments not afforded to the governing party over all other parties going to plan their programmes accordingly? Is the in our present arrangements. problem not going to be much worse, not better? As I have said before in these debates, it is rather like allowing Sir Alex Ferguson to pick the dates for Lord Rennard: My Lords, I think the problem would all the Manchester United games. In 1992, the advantage be rather less serious when we all knew when the of choosing polling day was possibly crucial to the election would be. The amendments strike very much 1085 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[LORDS] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1086

[LORD RENNARD] term of the present coalition Government, and not at the principle of the Bill, which is why I am now something that was designed properly to change the addressing them. If anyone doubts how a Prime Minister constitution. can manipulate the present system for party advantage, We also referred to the fact—as the Minister said in they should think back to the events of September his opening remarks—that there was some time in 2007, when a new Prime Minister was clearly planning Parliament for the Bill to be considered, although I an election for the autumn. Indeed, we now know that noted that my noble friend Lord Howarth referred to more than £1 million was spent on leaflets that sat the lack of pre-legislative scrutiny that we felt was with the Royal Mail waiting to be dispatched, when desirable in this case. None of the pre-legislative scrutiny the Prime Minister suddenly realised that he might or any of the processes that we as a Committee felt lose the election and called it off. Surely that is a great should have been undertaken to ensure that the Bill example of a Prime Minister abusing the system for had widespread support in making a major change to party advantage. the constitution had been undertaken. There was no Again, comparing this with football, would we Green Paper and no White Paper, and although Ministers consider it fair if Sir Alex Ferguson was allowed to appearing before the Committee said at the time that call off a football match if he was worried about the this was because it was early in the Parliament—as the form of his team and to rearrange the match for Minister said—we felt that there was no time limit on another day when it might perform better? Of course this Bill in the way that there was on the referendum we would not. I see the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, legislation that was brought forward with equal speed who obviously regards football as a very serious matter, early in the Parliament, so there was nothing to prevent sitting opposite. I recall my own sporting hero Bill this Bill being considered in what we would have Shankly saying that football is not, thought was the proper way for a constitutional Bill of “a matter of life or death … it’s more important than that”. this significance. However, I would say that democracy is even more I add in conclusion that your Lordships’ committee important. At the moment, in this period of great has now undertaken, partly because of our concern turbulence and concern about the rules of fair play, about this Bill, a full-scale inquiry into the process of fair competition and fair enforcement of the law, we constitutional change that we have just completed and should take this small step towards making the rules which I very much look forward to having the opportunity of our democracy fairer. If a future Parliament wishes to debate with your Lordships following the Recess. to take issue with the fixed-term principle or with any of the detail of how it operates, it should go through Lord Tyler: I agree very much with the noble Baroness the same parliamentary processes that are currently and respect the views of her committee. In thinking necessary with this Bill. about process, does she think that the novel constitutional On the principle of the Bill, let us consider finally process that the amendments introduce is a short cut, that neither the Scottish Parliament nor the Welsh without proper process, to look at major primary Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly or the European legislation by resolution of the two Houses, which Parliament, the Greater London Assembly or a single could be in conflict, or does she think that that is a one of the hundreds of local councils across the proper constitutional process? United Kingdom appear to have a problem with the fixed-term principle for elections. Neither should we Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, the committee’s in this unelected House. position, and certainly my personal position, is that given the inadequate processes that have produced this Baroness Jay of Paddington: My Lords, I am legislation, some form of post-legislative scrutiny was delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, has needed. I do not remember whether the noble Lord returned to the principles of this Bill because it was present when the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, led enables me briefly to return to the report of your the previous debate on a similar subject, but the discussion Lordships’ Committee on the Constitution, which I included the issue of whether there was some way not have the honour to chair and which I note the perhaps of preventing the present Government fulfilling Minister did not refer to. Well, he referred to it only in their five-year term, which the Constitution Committee passing; he did not refer to the fact that the certainly thought was the primary aim of this Bill, but Committee was on the whole opposed to the idea of of giving Parliament an opportunity to think again the principle of fixed-term Parliaments and was very about whether this was an appropriate way for the much in support of the idea that if they were to be constitution to be changed. undertaken they should have four-year terms rather than five-year terms. Lord Cormack: My Lords, I wish to make a brief In supporting the amendment tabled by the noble speech in support of the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, it is more appropriate Brockwell, and to focus the House’s attention on one to refer again to the Constitution Committee’s strictures or two points. First, whatever our views on fixed-term on the processes that produced this Bill. YourLordships Parliaments, we have debated that. The House, in its will recall that one of the things that the Committee wisdom, has made its decisions and has not stood in felt most strongly about was that the Bill had been the way of another place. We are to have a fixed-term brought forward with as many political concerns and Parliament and the next general election will take ambitions in mind as constitutional principles. In fact, we place in May 2015. That is not the issue this afternoon. were very concerned that this was seen as a short-term However, we have also decided that it is entirely proper measure designed to extend and protect the five-year to seek to improve and amend what many of us 1087 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[18 JULY 2011] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1088 consider to be an ill thought-out, unnecessary and bad 4pm Bill. That is what the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster: As one who put his Lord Butler of Brockwell, seeks to do. I hope very name to the amendment on Report, I rise briefly to much that we will support him if he decides to press add to the comments of my noble friend Lord Butler his amendment to a Division, and that we will do so of Brockwell and others. I do not need to go through because we recognise the circumstances in which this the defects of and objections to the Bill again. For all Bill was produced. the reasons given in earlier stages, and again by my This Bill is the creature of coalition. It came into noble friend Lord Butler now, I share his view that the being because of the coalition agreement. None of us Bill is neither necessary, nor desirable, nor satisfactory. has sought to deny the right of the Government to decide when the next general election will be. As I said, There is something very rummy about a Bill in it will occur in May 2015. Attempts to forward that which one clause decrees that a Parliament should last date were defeated—in my view, understandably, and for a full term of five years, and the next clause tries to probably rightly—when we sought to amend the Bill. provide for the circumstances in which, despite the However, because this Bill is the creature of coalition, first clause, it may be dissolved prematurely. It is all there should be an opportunity for the next Parliament Lombard Street to a China orange that the time will to consider whether it truly wishes to continue with come when a premature Dissolution would be to the this experiment. The next Parliament may well be one manifest benefit of the country, in circumstances which with a Conservative majority—I sincerely hope that it have not been foreseen or provided for by the legislation. will be—but whether it has a Conservative majority or The Prime Minister will have to resort to some artificial a Labour majority it is unlikely that it will be another device to enable him to request a Dissolution from the coalition. This amendment merely gives the opportunity Queen—for instance, by calling for a vote of confidence for the new Parliament to make its decision. Indeed, in Her Majesty’s Government, and advising his supporters this has already been recognised on the Floor of this to abstain or even vote against it. House by my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford As the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, has pointed out, when he was dealing with the sunset clause on the the Bill has been introduced as part of the glue to European Union Bill. He pointed out that the two allow the coalition to stick together and stay in office things were different. He said: as long as possible while it takes through the unpalatable “As was explained in the debate”— measures required to restore a measure of stability in the finances of the Government, and a climate more that is, the debate we had just had— conducive to growth in the economy. “one can see perfectly well why”, It is said that the legislation is intended to deprive our amendment had been passed. He continued: Prime Ministers of the opportunity to request a premature “The coalition exists, and I hope that it continues to exist in Dissolution for the sake of supposed party-political strong fine form during this fixed-term Parliament, but after that we have a new landscape. Who knows who will govern? Who advantage. If Prime Ministers are so deprived then, as knows what the pattern will be? It made perfectly good sense for the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has pointed out, they that legislation to have a limited life before coming to be will be forced to trim the timing and the quality of re-examined”.—[Official Report, 25/5/11; col. 1861.] their policies to the electoral timetable. They will defer My noble friend Lord Howell made a similar point good news, such as tax benefits, until near enough the when he wound up the debate on the sunset clause at election to affect the result. That may not be in the Report on the European Union Bill. best interests of the country. Either way, the Prime We have before us the opportunity to say to the Minister is going to retain some form of discretion other place, “Please reflect on what you have done. about he or she responds in these circumstances. Therefore, Please recognise that we have not wrecked the Bill that in reducing—though not, I suspect, eliminating—one you sent to us and that we have made no attempt to risk, there is reason to fear the risk of unforeseen and change the date of the next general election, but also adverse consequences. One devil—if it really is a devil— recognise that what we have done is to give an opportunity may be stunned, if not slain outright, but seven other for the Parliament elected in May 2015 to re-examine devils may be released. this matter and to decide whether, in the light of After the next general election, a new Government experience, it wishes to continue with fixed-term and a new Parliament should be obliged to review the Parliaments”. We are giving that Parliament the arrangements for and against legislation of this kind, opportunity to make that decision without burdening decide whether to be bound by the provisions of this it with the necessity of introducing full-scale constitutional legislation in future, and consider the case for reverting legislation at the beginning of a new Parliament if it to more flexible arrangements of the kind that have generally desires to move away from what we have decreed. prevailed until now. Passing this amendment would As we know all too well, constitutional legislation ensure that that would happen, so I hope that your takes a long time to get through Parliament. We may Lordships will vote accordingly, if they are asked to learn that lesson yet again in the not too distant divide, and invite the other place to think again. future, so we are being exceptionally kind to the next Parliament in giving it that opportunity to ratify or Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames: My Lords, the nullify without long, protracted debate. Because of other place has rightly rejected these amendments that, I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord because they rest on a fundamental misconception Butler of Brockwell, will be listened to and heeded, that, merely by enacting legislation that is not time-limited, and that if he decides to put this to the vote the Parliament is seeking to bind its successors by passing majority will be more than six this time. permanent legislation. That proposition only needs to 1089 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[LORDS] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1090

[LORD MARKS OF HENLEY-ON-THAMES] As always, the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, be stated to demonstrate its falsity. The Bill contains put his argument seductively and persuasively, but the no entrenching provisions. It does not seek to restrict reality is that far from being asked to act in this House in any way the power of any subsequent Parliament to as guardian of the constitution by these amendments, amend or repeal it. If the next or any future Parliament we are in fact asked to challenge the primacy of the wishes to reconsider the provisions of this Bill when elected House and to usurp the revising and scrutinising enacted it is free to do so, relying on the normal role of this House by effectively emasculating this Bill. processes by which we consider and pass legislation. In 1885, Dicey defined the doctrine of parliamentary Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Perhaps the noble Lord sovereignty on this point as the right, could help me with a point. I may be wrong, but I “to make and unmake any law whatsoever”. believe that we still retain the power in this House to prevent the other place from extending the life of a Nothing in this Bill as unamended infringes that principle. Parliament. Is there not a parallel there? These amendments, with their ungainly hybrid of a sunset provision and what might appropriately be Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames: My Lords, I do called a Lazarus clause—rather than a sunrise clause— not accept that there is a parallel. There is indeed the would kill off the effective provisions in the Act after exception in the Parliament Act for a Bill to extend the the next general election automatically and without life of Parliament, and that was the case with this Bill, any parliamentary consideration whatever, contrary with the power to extend by two months. That is not to the assertion of my noble friend Lord Cormack. the case in respect of these amendments. They would then allow one or any number of future Parliaments, by simple resolution of both Houses, Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I have listened to the to reinstate the legislation for a single Parliament at noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and I any time and at any stage of the Parliament in must say that it seems to me that they are making an question. That would not then be a fixed-term enormously unnecessary mountain out of this. What Parliaments Bill; it would be no more than an unedifying has happened is perfectly straightforward. Many parts muddle with no clarity for the electorate—or for of this House do not like this Bill, and for good parliamentary candidates, for that matter—when they reason. Your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, on go to the polls. which I have the privilege to sit, did not like it either. The amendments offend against constitutional principle But in the way that this House often finds compromise on three main grounds. It is notable that your Lordships’ solutions, instead of saying, “We won’t have the Bill at Constitution Committee, led by the noble Baroness, all”, the House said, “You can have your Bill. You Lady Jay, did not at any stage suggest a sunset and want a fixed term this time around, but don’t force this sunrise clause in the form proposed. The first offence down the throats of every successive Parliament. We against principle is that the amendment threatened to will make it easy for you. We will not even require you remove from Parliament the right to insist on full and to go through the full process, though you can if you detailed consideration of any proposal to repeal or want to”—I think the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, re-enact the legislation by introducing a mechanism was at one stage proposing that, and I will come back for re-enactment by resolution of both Houses. That to it. The House said, “We will leave it on the basis re-enactment, as my noble and learned friend Lord that if each House resolves that in its turn it wants a Wallace of Tankerness pointed out in opening, would fixed-term Parliament, it can have one”. apply to the Schedule, which contains historic and That seems to me to be an eminently suitable important repeals, and would apparently be reversible compromise. What the noble Lords say, inter alia, is by a resolution of both Houses. that this somehow gives this House the ability to prevent the Commons from having its way. But no; if Secondly, the amendments would increase the power the Commons wants to pass a Bill—a full Act—against of your Lordships’ House beyond that generally permitted the wishes of this House, it can still do that in the next by the Parliament Acts because they would give this Parliament. There is no constitutional aberration about House the power to thwart the will of the other place, this at all. It is a sensible compromise, it is a good not merely to delay its implementation, if a resolution British compromise, and it is the sort of compromise were passed by the House of Commons but denied that this House is good at finding. I too hope that the passage by the House of Lords. noble Lord, Lord Butler, will divide the House. If he Thirdly, the amendments would offend against the does, I will gladly join him in the Lobbies. Salisbury/Addison convention, if not in the letter certainly in the spirit. Both the Labour Party and the Liberal Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames: Does the Democrats had commitments to fixed-term Parliaments noble and learned Lord accept that the will of the in their manifestos, which were then agreed by the House of Commons is that this Bill should pass in a Conservatives in the coalition agreement. The settled way that does not just last for one Parliament, and view of the House of Commons, expressed on two that this Parliament does not need any legislation to occasions, is that this Bill should pass. Yet these sit until 2015? amendments seek to time-limit it in a way that would remove its impact altogether. I say that because as the Lord Goldsmith: I have two answers for the noble noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, Lord. First, that is one of the reasons why this Bill has and a number of other Lords pointed out at earlier never been necessary. It would have been perfectly stages of this Bill’s passage, no legislation whatever is possible for the Prime Minster to have made it very required for this Parliament to last until May 2015. clear—on his honour, on his commitment, or whatever— 1091 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[18 JULY 2011] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1092 that he is not going to go to the country until later. On many occasions during the passage of the Bill, That was undoubtedly one of the options which was several noble Lords have argued that our political available, as we know from the evidence that has system is not broken. I agree with that. My argument been given. The reasons why it was not taken I do not has always been that the problem we need to address is find at all convincing. Nevertheless, that is route by the public’s lack of confidence and trust in the system. which the Government have gone. Secondly—I say To fix the problem, we need to look for opportunities this with respect to the noble Lord, who has not been to change—not change for the sake of it, but change here as long as some other noble Lords—this House that delivers the kind of result that shows people we has the obligation and the responsibility of saying to mean it when we talk about putting the public interest the other place, “We think you are wrong. Think before our own. again”, and from time to time of saying, “We think I do not support the Bill because I believe in fixed-term you are wrong and we are not going to support what Parliaments; I support it because it is a means to a you are trying to do”. positive end. The Government and Opposition will have to face the electorate on a predetermined date, Lord Phillips of Sudbury: Does the noble and learned whatever the political conditions at the time. In other Lord know of any precedent or parallel for the provision words, the Bill provides certainty to the electorate that which he supports? the politicians have less room to manipulate the system for their advantage. It is not a silver bullet but a small Lord Goldsmith: This House has put forward sunset step in the right direction—and it is change with a clauses which have been agreed a number of times; the purpose. That makes it very different from changing precise mechanism does not matter. The point is that the voting system, with which some noble Lords have this House has said from time to time—for example, in compared it. relation to control orders—“All right, Government, I did not support AV, and I believe that voters you can have them for the time being, but you are not rejected it because it was only a means; it delivered no going to keep them without some further legislative end. It was obvious that AV would not mean, as the process”. That seems to me to be a very good idea. leaders of its campaign tried and failed to argue, more hard-working MPs and fewer MPs likely to fiddle Lord Tyler: Can I ask the noble and learned Lord their expenses. If I were minded to make a party whether in his consideration within the committee—to political point, I might say how ironic it is that the which I made reference earlier—he thought it appropriate person who keeps telling the rest of us that we “just for a constitutional Bill of this sort, over which a great don’t get it” was in favour of AV and is, based on his deal of concern has been expressed on his side of the Front-Benchers’ response to the Bill, at best confused House, to be subject to this fast-track, quick process, as to whether he supports fixed-term Parliaments. which is an entire novelty? It is not given to any other Even though the case is different, some noble Lords legislation whatever. Will he address in particular what have argued that the public should be consulted on would happen if one resolution were “Yes” and the this matter as well: that if a referendum was held for other resolution in the other House were “No”? Would AV, why not for fixed-term Parliaments? I would not that not then raise questions about the adequacy of have held a referendum on AV, either: but the reason a the process? referendum on fixed-term Parliaments is not necessary is that our job is to find a solution to the problems that Lord Goldsmith: The noble Lord is tempting me to people have identified, and to take responsibility for tell him what I think about the legislative process that the changes that we make. has taken place so far in relation to the Bill. It is I will offer my own analogy, which is not based on deplorable—not the consideration in this House, but football. It is bit like Marks & Spencer asking loyal the whole way in which this has come forward. This shoppers who have abandoned it because it has stopped House is making the best it can of that job by taking supplying the kind of fashion that 40-something women poor, inadequately consulted-on legislation and putting want, to design next season’s women’s range. It is not forward a compromise that I believe will work. In the job of shoppers to fix the problem; it is up to answer to the noble Lord’s second question, the Marks & Spencer to listen, understand and come up amendment is very clear. Both Houses need to give with the right solution to meet its customers’ concerns. their approval. However, if they do not, it is still open If it starts supplying what people want, they will to the other place to bring forward legislation and to return. use the Parliament Act if it wants to do so. Over the past few weeks, many commentators have made the point that the recent phone hacking scandal 4.15 pm is the latest in a series of similar scandals that have Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I will come already affected bankers and politicians. I agree with at this from a slightly different angle. Before I do, I will that. One common thread running through all three is say that it is to your Lordships’ great credit that the the public’s reaction to the evidence in front of them. Bill before us is much improved, especially the completely It can be summarised as: “Now we know for sure that revised Clause 2. I regret that I disagree with the noble you’re all in it for yourselves”. Although expressed at Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, for whom I have varying speeds and to varying degrees, another common great respect, on this Motion, which drives a coach thread is the way the institutions responded to that and horses through what the Bill has the potential to dreadful public indictment. We have seen shame, apology help us as a Parliament begin to achieve. and promises to put the House in order. Sadly, when it 1093 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[LORDS] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1094

[BARONESS STOWELL OF BEESTON] because no Parliament can bind its successor. If this comes to the last of these, we are all found wanting. Bill were passed and within three months Parliament, No one seems to want to change anything in a way in its wisdom, sought by a majority of one in each that will show the public that we are in it for them. House to repeal it, that would be the end of it. No There is always a compelling argument for the status constitutional impediment to that exists at all. So the quo. Whether it is ring-fencing bonuses in banking, flexibility is there. Well, you may ask, if that is so, why stronger regulation of the press or a simple guarantee have the amendment? The argument for it, it seems to to voters that they will definitely get five years instead me, is not tenuous and indeed it has some merit. It of, “possibly five, but maybe not if we think we can get concentrates the mind. It enables a new Parliament in more years in power by giving you less”, there is a new situation to look at the circumstances prevailing always someone saying, “That is not the bit of the at that particular time. system that is broken”. That is not good enough and it My second point—and I hope that I am not making is not the point. a Second Reading argument now, because I think that At his press conference a couple of weeks ago, is very much the backcloth to this very amendment—is when he announced the public inquiries now under what I would call the William Lovett point. Do you way, David Cameron concluded his remarks by saying remember the last point in Lovett’s charter—annual that after all the inquiries had finished, we need to general elections? God forbid. But the reason for it have a political system that people feel is on their side. was that Lovett and other brave people of his day were If we are to achieve that, we need to restore public convinced that the more you defended a Parliament confidence in the system which currently we think and a Government from the will of the people, the works okay. That means changing things which might greater the disservice to humanity and to democracy. not be broken, but by doing them differently, which If you gave them a certain five-year term rather than a could create a different result: one that people can see much shorter term, that as far as Lovett was concerned clearly is in their interest and that therefore gives them would be a betrayal of democracy. Therefore, one greater confidence that we are truly on their side. should approach the idea of a five-year full term with Committing ourselves to fixed-term Parliaments without very great reservation on that point alone. the get-out-of-jail-free card that this amendment offers My last point is the question is where the onus of is something that we can and should do. proof lies. This is a major constitutional change from The problem with this amendment is that it looks any point of view—nobody would dispute that. Where as though we do not really mean what we say. In is the evidence in support of it? It comes either from short—and I hesitate to say this, because I know that an idealistic direction or from a cynical direction. If it it is not what your Lordships intend—this amendment comes from an idealistic direction—and I can see that is symptomatic of the problem that we are trying to that may be so—it is based upon the theory that there solve. At the moment, we are demanding leadership in is evidence within, say, the last half century of Prime banking, in policing and in the media; we are asking Ministers beating the gun and going to the country them to make changes that might not be in their when it was wholly unnecessary to do so. It certainly interest in order to show people that they operate in did not happen in 1935. It did not happen in 1945. theirs and, in doing so, will, we hope, help to restore There were elections in 1951, 1966 and 1974 that have public trust. We cannot and should not demand of already been referred to. In each case, the country was others that which we are not willing to do ourselves. crying out for the chance to decide the matter there and then. If there is any criticism to be made about the Baroness Jay of Paddington: Before the noble Baroness abuse of the privilege of a Prime Minister to decide sits down, let me say that I follow her argument. She the exact date, it is against those Prime Ministers, of sees this Bill as a way of increasing public trust and more than one party, who have stayed too long rather public involvement in the political process. Does she than against those who have gone to the country too accept that had fixed-term Parliament legislation been soon. Where then is the case for this amending legislation? in place since the Second World War on the five-year Therefore, one doubts whether there might not indeed basis, there would have been four fewer general elections? be some faint cynical reasons for it. Baroness Stowell of Beeston: As I said in Committee, when we talked about the length of Parliaments being Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, I shall not either four or five years, I really do not think that that delay the House long. I supported the amendment is the issue. People are not looking for more general moved by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for a sunset elections. They are looking for a system that gives clause when it first came in front of us. I totally accept them the confidence that we want to work in their the rationale to which my noble friend Lord Cormack interest. referred: this was part of the coalition agreement. Whether, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, I believe that the this was written on the back of an envelope or a fag issues that we are concerned with turn upon three very packet, I do not quite know, but it was certainly simple matters. First, the argument against the amendment cobbled together to try to cement the coalition together. is seen to be founded on the idea that in some way or I always took the view that it was quite legitimate for another it brings about a revolutionary change in our the coalition Government to decide, if they wanted to, constitutional situation. It does not. The point has that they wanted to go the full five years. Indeed, the already been made—and due to a late train I am sorry noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, made that I was not here when the noble and learned Lord the point that that undertaking could be made by dealt with this matter—that the flexibility is still there, the Prime Minister because it did not need legislation. 1095 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[18 JULY 2011] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1096

One rather suspects the reason why the coalition This issue has effectively been decided in this House Government have decided that this should go into and in another place, whether we like it or agree with it future Parliaments is to give that agreement a bit of or not. I would not say that to support a sunset clause respectability, but I cannot see why it should bind on this occasion is unethical, but it is entirely inappropriate. future Parliaments. We do not use it on any of the other constitutional However, I will not be supporting the concept of a Bills; it is not the time to start doing it now. sunset clause this time round because the whole idea of a fixed-term Parliament is completely nonsensical and is not even worth the paper the Bill is written on. 4.30 pm The reasons for that are those put forward by the Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, this has been noble Lord, Lord Armstrong. I think the Prime Minister an extremely good debate. If I may respectfully say so, of the day could organise things so that a vote of no the opening speech from the noble Lord, Lord Butler confidence was achieved which would bring down his of Brockwell, said almost everything that could be own Government even if his own Back-Benchers voted said and I support everything that he has said in against the Government. Therefore, we could well end relation to this. up with a four-year Parliament if the Liberals decide We support this amendment because we think the no longer to support the coalition. Indeed, four-year Bill is a bad Bill. We respect the right of the coalition, Parliaments could happen in the future with this Bill because of the relationship between the Commons existing. That is the real flaw in the whole thing. There and the Lords, to have what they wish—which is a would obviously be an amazing row and accusations Parliament that ends on 15 May 2015—but if you of bad will if the Prime Minister organised things that analyse the detail, this Bill damages rather than improves way but, on the other hand, knowing the way that the constitution. Mindful of our obligation to respect elections kick in, that row would last 24 hours and the primacy of the Commons, we suggest that we give then we would all be campaigning on the election and the Commons what they wish but do not affect the who we wanted as the next Government so we would constitution further than is necessary. Before I come all forget about how the election was brought about in to the detail of that argument, I will just get rid of the beginning. some of the truly appalling points that have been taken against the amendment. Lord Dobbs: My Lords, I am rather torn over this First, I turn to the point that the provision is badly issue—after all, I am much in favour of opportunistic drafted. It was drafted by the noble Lords, Lord Prime Ministers. I enjoy sunsets and I also enjoy Pannick, Lord Butler of Brockwell, and Lord Armstrong flexibility and preparations for the unexpected, which of Ilminster, and supported by the noble Baroness, is the point raised by the noble Lord. After all, I was Lady Boothroyd. I do not think you could have a an aide to Margaret Thatcher when, as leader of the more powerful team in relation to this. What the Opposition, she advised us all to store tins in our amendment says—and it says it incredibly clearly—is: larders for just such an event. “The polling day for the next parliamentary general election This is an important constitutional Bill, and after the passing of this Act is to be 7 May 2015”. sunset clauses are entirely inappropriate here. Noble It then says, Lords have questioned the manner in which this Bill “If, but only if, a resolution to this effect”, has been conducted and introduced, and I share some is passed, then the next one will be five years after that, of those reservations, but surely, even if they believe in and if a resolution is not passed, the other provisions their claim of constitutional purity, they cannot respond do not apply. It could not be clearer. Please ignore all with a constitutional absurdity, which is what a sunset false remarks made in the other place. With respect to clause would be in this matter. The noble Lord, Lord the noble and learned Lord, there is nothing wrong Butler, suggested that no Minister in a future Parliament with the drafting of this. would ever dare argue—I quote him as far as my The second point that has been made is that it is memory will allow—that this Bill should be overturned suggested there is something unconstitutional about in order to give power back to Prime Ministers for this provision. First, it is said a sunset clause is narrow party-political reasons. Surely Prime Ministers inappropriate. We know that there have been sunset acting for narrow party-political reasons is entirely the clauses in what may be described as constitutional point. Where is the constitutional purity in that? Bills, for example the EU Bill and the control order This Bill does not mean that elections can be held Bills. The idea that a sunset clause in a constitutional only every five years. I believe that almost all the early Bill is inappropriate has been rejected by this House elections of the past 60 years could still have been held on a number of occasions and accepted by the other under this legislation. place. I wish to be very brief because we must move on. The third particularly bad argument is that the As to the call for second and third thoughts on the provision increases the power of this place by allowing part of the other place, we should be clear about the it to defeat orders. Yes, we can defeat orders, and the purpose of this amendment. We are not looking into a Parliament Act does not apply, but we always behave sunset here. What we are looking at are the lamps of responsibly, and I would expect us to behave responsibly wreckers, lined up on the cliff top, waiting to lure the should the Commons indicate after the next general ship of state on to the rocks and destroy it. No matter election that they want to have a fixed-term Parliament. how much better dressed they may be than their If, however, that was the objection to this provision, forebears, and how much better their manners, that is then speaking for myself I would readily agree to an still the purpose of this amendment. amendment to deal with that. 1097 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[LORDS] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1098

[LORD FALCONER OF THOROTON] Moving away from the technical points to the point The final particularly appalling technical argument of this Bill, let us think about history for a moment. In that has been advanced is that this is contrary to the 1924, the Labour Government were defeated in a vote Salisbury/Addison convention. I have never heard this because the Labour Prime Minister had interfered being said until this afternoon. The Salisbury/Addison with the Attorney-General in the exercise of his discretion. convention effectively says if the electorate have The moment he was defeated on the Floor of the indicated it supports something this House should not House of Commons, there was a general election and resist it. I do not know if Members remember the the Conservative Party was returned to power. Imagine election in 2010, but the one thing I can tell you, and it if Mr Ramsay MacDonald had been faced with the pains me to say it, is the one party that unquestionably Fixed-term Parliaments Bill in 1924: first, being defeated lost the election was the Labour Party. Yes, a fixed-term on the proposition that he had interfered with the Parliament was in our manifesto, but the public appeared Attorney-General would not have led to a general very unattracted to it, so I do not think the Salisbury/ election. There would had to have been a vote of no Addison convention can be relied on by anybody confidence put down by the Opposition. Let us assume remotely sane. that that had passed but that would not have been the We know why this has been put in because we have end of it. Mr Ramsay MacDonald would then have had the privilege and the pleasure of Mr David Laws’s had 14 days to try to cobble together a bit of support. book, which was read many times on the Floor of this Let us remember that he had a small majority in House during debates. Noble Lords will recall that relation to this. He could have tried to survive on that Mr David Laws, who happily for this House was basis. Is it seriously being said that that sort of behaviour present during negotiations, gave us an account of would have led to the public having more confidence how we got the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. It is in the Government? lovely to hear the highly principled noble Lord, Lord Moving forward in time to 1974, Mr Edward Heath Rennard, and the splendid noble and learned Lord, perfectly legitimately wanted to test who governed the Lord Wallace of Tankerness—neither of whom were country because the country was in a major crisis in there and neither was I—but have I got news for you. relation to the miners’ strike. Despite the fact that he It was not on the basis of a desire to change the legitimately wanted to go to the country, he could not constitution; it was because the Tories and the Liberal have gone because he would not have been allowed to Democrats did not trust each other to hold on to the under this Bill unless he had tabled a vote of no convention. As David Laws explained, that is why they confidence in his own Government. I think it was the said that there had to be a Bill. noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, who said that perhaps he I respect the decency of the noble Lord and the could have done that. But what would people think of noble and learned Lord to whom I have referred but a Government who put down a Motion of no confidence that was not the reason given by David Laws for why in themselves? this has been done. It is because of the coalition Finally, the father of my noble friend Lady Jay in agreement. I could not put it better than Mr Shepherd, 1979 was defeated in a vote of confidence on the Floor the Member for “somewhere”. He is facing a House of of the House of Commons. The most quoted extract Commons laughingly about to pass this Fixed-term from political history in the course of this debate was Parliaments Bill without the sunset clause. He says: what Mr James Callaghan said when he was defeated. “I hope that this cheerful Chamber will look askance at the He said, “I have been defeated in the House of Commons. Minister and his colleague, the Deputy Leader of the House, who I must now take my argument to the people”. After are sitting on the Front Bench and trying to seduce us into this Bill has been passed he would have to say, “Now thinking that there is some immaculate constitutional conception that I have been defeated on a vote of no confidence, I behind the Bill. There is not. It is the raw politics of ‘We want to be there for five years, in the hope that something turns up at the must see if I can scrabble together a majority to stay end of the fifth year’. That is what it is about, and we know it. I in power because this beastly Act gives me 14 days in urge the House to vote for the Lords amendment, and damn which to try to do it”. them”.—[Official Report, Commons, 13/7/11; col. 378.] Okay, I say to the coalition, have your miserable I do not think he meant damn the Lords; I think he Act so that you can stick together until 5 May 2015, meant damn the coalition. because we respect your right to force that upon us. However, there is nothing unconstitutional in saying Lord Rennard: My Lords, does the noble and learned that it is appropriate for this House to stick with the Lord, Lord Falconer, also recall that during the very principle that says, after that, let the next Parliament same debate Richard Shepherd said that, decide whether it wants to continue with what I say is “the Lords make the absurd proposition that it should have a role, a terrible Act. We will support the noble Lord, Lord Butler as an unelected House, in determining when an election should of Brockwell, in his excellent sunset clause. be”? He also described these proposals as, Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, once again “ridiculous proposals from the House of Lords … the body of the on this subject, we have had a very full and interesting House … feels that this is almost an impertinence”.—[Official debate, and I thank all noble Lords who have made Report, Commons, 13/7/11; col. 377-78.] important contributions to it. Those were the context of his remarks last week. It is clear that a number of noble Lords who spoke in the debate approached the amendment on the basis Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I recall that but he of whether they supported fixed-term Parliaments. voted in favour of the amendment. So I think you can My noble friend Lady Stowell and my noble friend say where his heart lay in relation to this. Lord Dobbs gave compelling reasons why they believe 1099 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[18 JULY 2011] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1100 in fixed-term Parliaments, whereas the noble and learned Commons taking one view and the Lords another, to Lord, Lord Falconer, departing from his party’s manifesto which I say, in those circumstances, one should pass at the last election, indicated that he is now not quite an Act. The Parliament Act could be used and the so sure about them. When the House was debating Commons could have its primacy through that proper whether the fixed term should be four or five years and route. the noble and learned Lord was asked whether, if five years was passed rather than four, a future Labour Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, the more Government would try to bring it back to four, I appropriate approach is in the ABC of constitutional remember his not being able to give an answer. If this law, whereby, if one does not like legislation passed by Bill is passed and the amendment which we are currently a previous Parliament, one brings forward primary debating is not included, I cannot see a future Government legislation to repeal it and does not simply let it lapse, trying to repeal it either. particularly on matters of such constitutional importance. Back in 1992, as my noble friend Lord Rennard 4.45 pm reminded us, fixed-term Parliaments was a policy of the Labour Party on which it fought the election; it is a I agree with my noble friend Lord Rennard, who policy which my party has espoused for many years; said that the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell, and it is a policy of the coalition. The argument that introduced his negativing of my Motion in a persuasive the legislation was meant to last only until 5 May 2015 way, but I ask your Lordships to consider some of the is nonsense. The coalition agreement makes a clear things that the noble Lord said. He sought to suggest, commitment to legislate for fixed-term Parliaments in first, that the power the Prime Minister was giving up the future. The title of the Bill refers to fixed-term was not much of a power at all, which is contrary to Parliaments in the plural, so it was never intended what the noble Lord, Lord Hennessey, said at Second simply to be a fix for the current Parliament. Many of Reading. Indeed, in his remarks supporting the the arguments brought forward, particularly when we amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, referred were debating four or five years, related to the ability to the abuses which many Prime Ministers had inflicted to plan government business over a period of time. on the country. I think he used the word “abuse” in Whether one could test the feasibility of that in this regard to choosing the date of the election. first Parliament, when we do not have the Bill on the statute book, is doubtful. Lord Howarth of Newport: I said there was no evidence of this power having been abused. Indeed, I want to put to rest the idea that the Bill was meant would not the noble and learned Lord agree that to be for only one Parliament. It is very clear in the Prime Ministers who have attempted to string things coalition agreement that it was intended for future out, who have dithered, hesitated and dragged out the Parliaments, subject crucially to the fact that no Parliament life of their Governments until the last possible moment, can bind its successor, as the noble Lord, Lord Elystan- have usually been heavily punished by the electorate Morgan, said. The important point here is that if a for doing so? Parliament cannot bind its successor and future Parliaments do not want fixed-term Parliaments, they Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Prime Ministers have should bring forward legislation. That would be the tried to divine the times to see when would be the best proper way of scrutinising whether the fixed-term time to call an election. Indeed, in an earlier debate I Parliament has worked. As things stand with this quoted from the book of my noble friend Lord Lawson, amendment, no resolution whatever would be required The View from No. 11: Memoirs of a Tory Radical.He if one did not wish to continue with fixed-term said about the then Prime Minister, now the noble Parliaments. There would be no post-legislative scrutiny, Baroness, Lady Thatcher: no opportunity to consider whether the idea had “Her view was that a Government should always wait until the delivered what those of us who support it claim it final year of the quinquennium, but once there should go as soon would. If one had to bring forward a Bill repealing as it is confident it will win”. the legislation, it would provide ample opportunity to In other words, a partisan political judgment was debate the pros and cons. clearly being made. As my noble friend reminded us, I say with all due respect to the noble and learned in September/October 2007, Mr Gordon Brown did a Lord, Lord Goldsmith, that the idea that, somehow, calculation in the third year of that Parliament as to Acts of Parliament should be suspended or ended at whether or not it would be in his party’s best interests Dissolution and that, if you wanted to continue them to go to the country. There is more to this. The power into a future Parliament, you should bring back a new that the Prime Minister is giving up as a result of this Bill to do it, rather than what we have thought for Bill, as noted by the noble Lord, Lord Hennessey, at years, which is that if you wish to repeal an Act of Second Reading, is important. Parliament you do so by primary legislation, was a The noble Lord, Lord Butler, said that it was not very novel constitutional proposal which I certainly much of a power, and then he said that no Prime would not like to argue before the Constitution Committee Minister would have a straight face in trying to reverse if it became an act of faith. the situation in the future. He is absolutely right. If a fixed-term Parliament became law, it would be very Lord Goldsmith: It is the answer to the point that is difficult for someone to come before the House and being made. The amendment as it stands enables say that they wanted to revert to the position where future Parliaments to decide whether to go the same the Prime Minister could choose the date of the election way without having to go through the full process. The because of party advantage. They would get pretty objection that is raised is that that might lead to the short shrift—it would be difficult to do—but no one 1101 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[LORDS] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1102

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] when Parliament was extending the lifetime of a denies that, constitutionally, it is perfectly possible. It Parliament. The point is that the exception in Section 2 would be perfectly proper for them to seek to do it and of the 1911 Act is to, to argue their case. However, my point is that they “a Bill containing any provision to extend the maximum duration should do it by proper means through primary legislation of Parliament beyond five years”. and not in the way proposed by the amendment to the There is a crucial difference between a Bill that extends Motion. a Parliament beyond five years and a resolution as to whether there should be a fixed-term Parliament. In Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Why does my noble and that respect, it is not proper that this House should be learned friend use the phrase “because of party given a veto in these circumstances. advantage”? What happens if a Prime Minister thinks I have already indicated that this course can be it is the country’s advantage—as happened in 1974 revived in each succeeding Parliament. It is not just a when the Prime Minister felt that the issue of the case of seeing how the Parliament from 2010 to 2015 power of the unions needed to be settled? Why take would go. It may not happen under the amendment that away? Secondly, I struggled with the speech of my here—there may not be a fixed-term from 2015 to noble friend Lady Stowell when she said that having a whenever—but it could be revived in the following fixed-term parliament would restore people’s trust in Parliament. It is another unsettling uncertainty about Parliament. How does giving people absolute job security this Bill that it can switch on and off fundamentally for five years help to restore people’s trust? Can my important constitutional proceedings. noble and learned friend explain that to me? There has been considerable debate on this Bill. As I indicated, it was introduced a year ago this week. It Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, the answer had its Second Reading in another place in September is the same to both parts of my noble friend’s question. last year, extra time was made available in Committee, On the position in February 1974, which has been and Report and Third Reading in the other place took raised in the debate, if the Conservative Prime Minister place in January. In your Lordships’ House, the Bill of the day believed that it was necessary for an election, was introduced in January, Second Reading took place it is begging belief to suggest that the Labour Party in March, the Committee sat on three days in March, would not also have agreed to an election and that the Report was heard on two days in May and Third 75 per cent majority for a dissolution would not have Reading also took place in May. It has been very fully been achieved. This does not mean absolute job security debated. I note that the noble Baroness, the chair of for five years because, if a Government lose confidence, the Constitution Committee, referred to the committee’s the Bill contains within it mechanisms which can lead report on the process of constitutional change, which to an election. This can also happen if there is an I believe was published overnight. One of the conclusions agreement—as I believe would have been the case in was as follows: March 1979. The then Prime Minister, Mr James “We stress the importance of proper parliamentary scrutiny of Callaghan, could have said that he had lost a vote of all bills”— confidence and that the following day he would table a and this Bill has been subject to considerable parliamentary Motion for dissolution, which I am sure would have scrutiny for a Bill of only seven clauses and one been overwhelmingly carried by more than the majority schedule— required under the Bill. To suggest that he would have “but we do not recommend that any new parliamentary procedures had to go scrabbling around trying to find a means of such as super-majorities should apply to significant constitutional living on until October would not have been the case. bills”. There are mechanisms in the Bill to deal with that kind I cannot think of any more noted significant new of situation. parliamentary procedure than the one that is promoted I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, sought by this amendment. If the Constitution Committee is to dismiss the suggestion that there could not be sceptical about using new parliamentary procedures tensions between the two Chambers, although I do with regard to even very sensitive and important not think that he actually denied that that was a constitutional Bills, this is one about which we certainly possibility. However, he did say that this House would should be very sceptical. I do not believe the view of not stand in the way of a newly elected Government the noble Lord, Lord Butler, that we are doing a who sought to establish a fixed-term Parliament. Part service to the constitution by saying that we do not of the problem with the noble Lord’s answer, apart have to go to the length of repealing. Repealing is from suggesting that this House might simply rubber- what we do if we do not like legislation that was stamp the Bill—heaven forbid—is that the amendment passed by previous Parliaments. If we depart from does not say that the resolution would be brought that principle on a matter of constitutional importance, forward by a newly elected Government. It actually I believe we should only do so with very great caution. says that it would have to be brought forward at some I would urge your Lordships not to insist on the time during the Parliament. Therefore it might be amendment because I do not believe that the case has brought forward some years into the Parliament. At been made for such a serious constitutional departure. that point, who is to say that this House might not think that they were at it at the other end, bringing Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords, I agree that forward the resolution for partisan advantage? This this has been a very good debate. I do not need to go House might take a different view about that in those over the arguments again except perhaps to assure the circumstances. Therefore it does change the balance. Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, that, like My noble friend Lord Forsyth asked whether this Mark Twain’s death, reports of the advantage to a does not parallel the position in the Parliament Act Prime Minister of being able to decide when to call an 1103 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[18 JULY 2011] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1104 election in the last year are greatly exaggerated. Certainly Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Howarth of Breckland, B. such reports did not prevent the noble Baroness, Lady Butler of Brockwell, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Thatcher, from packing her bags on the morning of a Campbell of Surbiton, B. Howe of Idlicote, B. general election in preparation for the election not Campbell-Savours, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Chorley, L. Howie of Troon, L. going the way she expected. Christopher, L. Hoyle, L. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, Clancarty, E. Hughes of Stretford, B. and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, Clark of Windermere, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. who spoke about the report from your Lordships’ Clarke of Hampstead, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Clinton-Davis, L. Hylton, L. Select Committee on the Constitution. The Minister Collins of Highbury, L. Inge, L. quoted one of its conclusions in his last remarks, but I Condon, L. Irvine of Lairg, L. would like to quote the two main conclusions. The Corbett of Castle Vale, L. Janner of Braunstone, Minister said that the Select Committee on the constitution Cormack, L. L. in another place endorsed the proposal, but I shall Coussins, B. Jay of Paddington, B. quote what your Lordships’ committee said. If I may Crawley, B. Jones, L. Crisp, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. say so, your Lordships’ committee contains distinguished Cunningham of Felling, Judd, L. constitutional lawyers from all parties, who trump L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. those who are members of the constitution committee Davies of Abersoch, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. in another place. They said: Davies of Coity, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller] “We take the view that the origins and contents of this Bill Davies of Stamford, L. King of Bow, B. owe more to short-term considerations than to a mature assessment Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, King of West Bromwich, L. of enduring constitutional principles or sustained public demand”. B. Kinnock, L. The committee continued by saying that, Dear, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Desai, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. “the balance of the evidence we heard does not convince most of Donaghy, B. Laming, L. us that a strong enough case has yet been made for overturning an Drake, B. Layard, L. established constitutional practice and moving to fixed-term D’Souza, B. Lea of Crondall, L. Parliaments”. Dubs, L. Leitch, L. There could hardly be two more damaging sentences. Eames, L. Levy, L. Our national constitution is too important to be Elder, L. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Elystan-Morgan, L. Liddle, L. tinkered with as a bargaining chip in the negotiations Emerton, B. Lipsey, L. of a temporary coalition. The British people have Evans of Parkside, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. decisively prevented that from happening to the voting Evans of Temple Guiting, Listowel, E. system for the House of Commons. They are not to be L. Low of Dalston, L. given a chance to express a view on this constitutional Falconer of Thoroton, L. Luce, L. Falkender, B. McAvoy, L. change, so it falls to your Lordships to insist that the Falkland, V. McDonagh, B. Government and the House of Commons refrain Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Macdonald of Tradeston, from making a permanent change and give future Filkin, L. L. Parliaments and Governments the opportunity to make Flather, B. McFall of Alcluith, L. these decisions for themselves. I would like to seek the Ford, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. opinion of the House. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Foulkes of Cumnock, L. L. 4.56 pm Fritchie, B. McKenzie of Luton, L. Gale, B. Mallalieu, B. Gavron, L. Manchester, Bp. Division on Motion A1 Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Manningham-Buller, B. Giddens, L. Mar, C. Contents 251; Not-Contents 219. Glasman, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Golding, B. Massey of Darwen, B. Motion A1 agreed. Goldsmith, L. Maxton, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Meacher, B. Gould of Potternewton, B. Miller of Hendon, B. Division No. 1 Grantchester, L. Monks, L. Grenfell, L. Moonie, L. CONTENTS Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Morris of Handsworth, Grocott, L. L. Aberdare, L. Bew, L. Guthrie of Craigiebank, L. Morris of Manchester, L. Adams of Craigielea, B. Bhatia, L. Hanworth, V. Morris of Yardley, B. Adonis, L. Bhattacharyya, L. Harries of Pentregarth, L. Myners, L. Afshar, B. Bichard, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Neill of Bladen, L. Ahmed, L. Bilimoria, L. Harrison, L. Norwich, Bp. Allenby of Megiddo, V. Bilston, L. Haskel, L. O’Loan, B. Anderson of Swansea, L. Blair of Boughton, L. Haskins, L. O’Neill of Bengarve, B. Andrews, B. Blood, B. Haworth, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Armstrong of Ilminster, L. Boothroyd, B. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Ouseley, L. Bach, L. Borrie, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Palmer, L. Bakewell, B. Boyd of Duncansby, L. Henig, B. Parekh, L. Barnett, L. Bradley, L. Hennessy of Nympsfield, L. Patel, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Bragg, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Patel of Blackburn, L. Beecham, L. Brennan, L. Hollins, B. Patel of Bradford, L. Berkeley, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Best, L. Brookman, L. Howard of Rising, L. Pendry, L. 1105 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill[LORDS] Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 1106

Peston, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Goodhart, L. Norton of Louth, L. Pitkeathley, B. Stone of Blackheath, L. Goodlad, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, Plant of Highfield, L. Sutherland of Houndwood, Grade of Yarmouth, L. L. Prescott, L. L. Greaves, L. O’Cathain, B. Prosser, B. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Greengross, B. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Quin, B. Tanlaw, L. Greenway, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Quirk, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Hamwee, B. Parminter, B. Radice, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Hanham, B. Patten, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Temple-Morris, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Ramsbotham, L. Thornton, B. Harris of Richmond, B. Phillips of Sudbury, L. Rea, L. Tomlinson, L. Henley, L. Popat, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. Touhig, L. Heyhoe Flint, B. Rawlings, B. Rendell of Babergh, B. Higgins, L. Richard, L. Triesman, L. Razzall, L. Tunnicliffe, L. Hill of Oareford, L. Reay, L. Richardson of Calow, B. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Rogan, L. Turnberg, L. Redesdale, L. Turnbull, L. [Teller] L. Rennard, L. Rooker, L. Home, E. Turner of Camden, B. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Rosser, L. Hooper, B. Ribeiro, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. Howe, E. Rowlands, L. Walpole, L. Howe of Aberavon, L. Risby, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Warnock, B. Howell of Guildford, L. Ritchie of Brompton, B. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Sawyer, L. West of Spithead, L. Hussain, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Wheeler, B. Hussein-Ece, B. Ryder of Wensum, L. Sewel, L. Whitaker, B. Inglewood, L. St John of Fawsley, L. Sheldon, L. Wilkins, B. Jenkin of Roding, L. Sanderson of Bowden, L. Sherlock, B. Williams of Elvel, L. Jolly, B. Sassoon, L. Simon, V. Williamson of Horton, L. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Scott of Foscote, L. Slim, V. Wills, L. King of Bridgwater, L. Scott of Needham Market, Smith of Basildon, B. Winston, L. Kirkham, L. B. Smith of Finsbury, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Knight of Collingtree, B. Seccombe, B. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Kramer, B. Selborne, E. Snape, L. Worthington, B. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Soley, L. Wright of Richmond, L. Selsdon, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Stern, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Leach of Fairford, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Young of Norwood Green, Sharkey, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. Stirrup, L. L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Sharples, B. Lexden, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. NOT CONTENTS Lingfield, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Shipley, L. Addington, L. Clement-Jones, L. Liverpool, E. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Colwyn, L. Lloyd of Berwick, L. Smith of Clifton, L. Alderdice, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. Loomba, L. Spicer, L. Alliance, L. Courtown, E. Lucas, L. Sterling of Plaistow, L. Alton of Liverpool, L. Crathorne, L. Luke, L. Stewartby, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Cumberlege, B. McColl of Dulwich, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- De Mauley, L. Macdonald of River Glaven, Stowell of Beeston, B. Hamdon, L. Dholakia, L. L. Strasburger, L. Astor of Hever, L. Dixon-Smith, L. MacGregor of Pulham Strathclyde, L. Avebury, L. Dobbs, L. Market, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Doocey, B. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Teverson, L. Ballyedmond, L. Dundee, E. MacLaurin of Knebworth, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Barker, B. Dykes, L. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Berridge, B. Eaton, B. McNally, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. Black of Brentwood, L. Eden of Winton, L. Maddock, B. Tonge, B. Blackwell, L. Elton, L. Magan of Castletown, L. Tope, L. Blencathra, L. Empey, L. Mancroft, L. Trefgarne, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Erroll, E. Maples, L. Trimble, L. B. Falkner of Margravine, Mar and Kellie, E. Trumpington, B. Boswell of Aynho, L. B. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Tugendhat, L. Bottomley of Nettlestone, B. Faulks, L. L. Tyler, L. Bowness, L. Fearn, L. Marland, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Bridgeman, V. Feldman, L. Marlesford, L. Ullswater, V. Brinton, B. Feldman of Elstree, L. Mawhinney, L. Vallance of Tummel, L. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Flight, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Verma, B. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Fookes, B. Methuen, L. Waddington, L. L. Fowler, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Waldegrave of North Hill, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Framlingham, L. B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Montrose, D. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Browning, B. Freeman, L. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Walmsley, B. Burnett, L. Freud, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Warsi, B. Byford, B. Garden of Frognal, B. Moynihan, L. Wasserman, L. Caithness, E. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Naseby, L. Wei, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. Geddes, L. Neuberger, B. Wheatcroft, B. Carrington, L. German, L. Newby, L. Wilcox, B. Cathcart, E. Glasgow, E. Newton of Braintree, L. Williams of Crosby, B. Chadlington, L. Glendonbrook, L. Noakes, B. Wolfson of Sunningdale, L. Chidgey, L. Gold, L. Northover, B. Younger of Leckie, V. 1107 Metropolitan Police Service[18 JULY 2011] Metropolitan Police Service 1108

Metropolitan Police Service evidence that was neglected first time round, pursuing Statement new leads, and as we saw once again at the weekend, making arrests. 5.10 pm Operation Elveden, also led by Sue Akers, is investigating allegations that police officers have received The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness payment from the press in return for information. This Browning): My Lords, I beg leave to repeat a Statement investigation has independent oversight by the made earlier today in another place by my right Independent Police Complaints Commission. At this honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Home stage, this is a supervised investigation, meaning that Department. The Statement is as follows. the IPCC sets the terms of reference and receives the “Mr Speaker, with permission, I would like to make investigation report, and as soon as individual suspected a Statement on the resignations of Sir Paul Stephenson officers have been identified, IPCC investigators, overseen and John Yates, the Metropolitan Police investigation by an IPCC commissioner, will take over and lead a into phone hacking and allegations of police corruption. fully independent investigation of those officers. As the House will know, last night Sir Paul Stephenson In the future, both of these matters will be considered resigned as Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. by the Leveson inquiry established by the Prime Minister. As I told him last night, I am sorry that he took that In the mean time, I can tell the House that Elizabeth decision. He has led the Met through difficult times Filkin, the former Parliamentary Commissioner for and, although current circumstances show there are Standards, has provisionally agreed to examine the still serious issues to be addressed, the Met is stronger ethical considerations that should in future underpin operationally today than it was when he took over. I the relationships between the Metropolitan Police and will turn to those difficult circumstances in a moment, the media, how to ensure maximum transparency and but first I would like to update the House on today’s public confidence, and to provide advice. The management developments and the next steps for the Metropolitan board of the Met has agreed a new set of guidelines Police. relating to relationships with the media, including I have already started work with the Mayor of recording meetings and hospitality and publication of London and the Metropolitan Police to arrange an information on the internet. orderly transition and the appointment of a new commissioner. I have agreed that Sir Paul Stephenson These allegations are not, unfortunately, the only will leave his post as swiftly as possible. In the mean recent examples of alleged corruption and nepotism time he will remain commissioner in post at New in the police, so I can tell the House that I have asked Scotland Yard and in operational command. Sir Paul Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary to consider will be replaced by Tim Godwin, who will again instances of undue influence, inappropriate contractual become acting commissioner, a role he filled very arrangements and other abuses of power in police effectively during Sir Paul’s illness between December relationships with the media and other parties. I have and April this year. With Tim Godwin as acting asked HMIC to make recommendations to me about commissioner, the mayor and I are clear that additional what needs to be done to address it. resilience is essential from outside the Metropolitan There is nothing more important than the public’s Police. I am therefore pleased to announce that Bernard trust in the police to do their work without fear or Hogan-Howe has agreed to take on the responsibilities favour, so at moments like these it is natural that of deputy commissioner on a temporary basis. We are people should ask who polices the police. I have already looking to expedite the process for selecting and appointing asked Jane Furniss, the chief executive of the Independent the next commissioner. Police Complaints Commission, whether she has the The House will also know that within the past power and the resources to get done the immediate couple of hours, Assistant Commissioner John Yates work at hand. She has assured me that it does, but has also resigned. I want to put on the record my additional resources will be made available to the gratitude to John Yates for the work that he has done IPCC if they are needed. while I have been Home Secretary to develop and I can also tell the House that I have commissioned improve counterterrorism policing in London and, work to consider whether the IPCC needs further indeed, across the whole country. I can confirm to the powers, including whether it should be given the power House that Assistant Commissioner Cressida Dick to question civilian witnesses during the course of its will take over his role. investigations. Given that the IPCC can at present I want honourable Members, Londoners and the investigate only specific allegations against individual whole country to know that the important work of the officers, I have also asked whether the commission Met—its national responsibilities, such as counterterrorism needs to have a greater role in investigating allegations operations as well as policing our capital city—must about institutional failings of a force or forces. and will continue. That important work includes the Finally, I want to say one last word about the related investigations, Operation Weeting and Operation future of the Metropolitan Police. The Met is the Elveden. largest police force in the country and has important Operation Weeting, the investigation into phone national responsibilities beyond its role policing our hacking, led by Deputy Assistant Commissioner Sue capital. The next Metropolitan Police Commissioner Akers, is now going through the thousands of pieces will lead thousands of fine police officers, community of evidence relating to the allegations. Unlike the support officers and staff, the great majority of whom original investigation into phone hacking, Operation have spent their careers dedicated to protecting the Weeting is proceeding apace, with officers interrogating public, often at risk to their own safety. Just three 1109 Metropolitan Police Service[LORDS] Metropolitan Police Service 1110

[BARONESS BROWNING] Andy Coulson—an ongoing relationship, as they met nights ago, honourable Members will know that in at Chequers in March, months after the new police Croydon an unarmed Metropolitan Police officer was investigation began. shot as he tried to arrest a suspect. I know that the This morning the Home Secretary refused to defend whole House will agree with me that it is for the sake the appointment of Andy Coulson, and today the of the many thousands of honourable police officers London mayor refused to defend it. The Home Secretary and staff, as well as for the public they serve, that we has been remarkably silent during the crisis despite the must get to the bottom of all these allegations. Only serious allegations that phone hacking may have interfered then will we be able to ensure the integrity of our with criminal investigations, the serious questions for police and public confidence in them to do their vital policing, and the growing cloud over the national and work. I commend this Statement to the House”. international reputation of British policing as a result My Lords, that concludes the Statement. of the crisis. She has said very little in the last two weeks. The judicial inquiry that we have called for is 5.18 pm important, but confidence in policing is too important to wait for its results. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I echo her Why has it taken the Home Secretary so long to ask tribute to the thousands of police officers who perform Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary to consider their duties in the metropolis, often in dangerous instances of undue influence, inappropriate contractual circumstances. arrangements and other abuses of power in police The noble Baroness rightly paid tribute to Sir Paul relationships with the media and other parties? What Stephenson and his work. He has done excellent work are the implications of the Home Secretary’s proposals in London, backing neighbourhood policing and action to bring in American-style elected police and crime to cut crime in the capital as well as vital work on commissioners? The nearest Britain has to an elected counterterrorism. His is an honourable decision to police chief—the London mayor—did not stop these protect the crucial operational work of the Met from problems at the Met. If anything, he made them continuing speculation. However, his departure raises worse. Boris Johnson described the phone hacking serious questions for the Home Secretary and the allegations as “codswallop”. He went on to say: Prime Minister. It is clear that the Met commissioner “It looks like a politically motivated put-up job by the Labour and the head of counterterrorism have now gone party”. because of questions about this crisis and the appointment What backing does the Minister think that Sir Paul of the former deputy editor of the News of the World. Stephenson and John Yates could have expected from Yet the Prime Minister is still refusing to answer the mayor if they had decided to reopen an investigation questions, or apologise for his appointment of the that he described as politically motivated? The truth is former editor of the News of the World. The judgment that the elected mayor made it harder, not easier, for of the Metropolitan police force has been called into the Met to get to the heart of this issue. The Mayor of question by appointing Neil Wallis, but so too has the London is now looking forward to working with his judgment of the Prime Minister by appointing Neil third police commissioner in his current term. To lose Wallis’s boss, Andy Coulson. People will look at this one commissioner is a misfortune; to lose two looks and think that it is one rule for the police and another like carelessness. Above all, it shows the risks of the for the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister agreed to closeness of the relationship between politicians and that this morning. He said: operational policing. “The situation at the Metropolitan Police is really quite different I come to the implications of all of this on the to the situation in Government, not least because the issues that the Met are looking at, the issues around them, have a direct police Bill, which we are told is based on experience in bearing on public confidence into the police enquiry into the London. In light of what has happened, I would ask News of the World”. the Minister for a pause in consideration of the Bill, But the Prime Minister runs the country, and the currently due for Third Reading in your Lordships’ issues that he is looking at, and the judgments that he House on Wednesday. Whatever the ups and downs of makes, have a direct bearing on public confidence in the British police force over the decades, its political the Government’s ability to sort this crisis out. Sir Paul impartiality has shone out to international acclaim. has very honourably accepted his ultimate responsibility However, this Bill threatens a disaster. Party political for the position the Metropolitan police force finds commissioners to be elected in nine months’ time risk itself in. Why does the Prime Minister not similarly undermining the very impartiality of which we are so accept his responsibility? proud. The Bill threatens the politicisation of operational The Home Secretary is right to have concerns about policing; and it threatens a huge loss of public confidence the appointment of Neil Wallis, and she is right that in the untrammelled power given to party political she should have been told about the conflict of interest. commissioners to appoint or to dismiss chief constables This does raise serious questions for the police force. at will. But the Met commissioner says that he could not tell The London situation is particularly worrying. As her, or her boss, because of the Prime Minister’s Sir Paul said in his statement today, the Met faces relationship with Andy Coulson. How did it come to extraordinary challenges: the phone hacking investigation, this? The most senior police officer in the country did the public inquiries, the inquiries that the Home Secretary not feel able to tell the Home Secretary about a announced today; its responsibility in counterterrorism potential conflict of interest for the Met because of and national security issues; and the Olympics. There the Prime Minister’s compromised relationship with is now huge disruption in the senior ranks of the force 1111 Metropolitan Police Service[18 JULY 2011] Metropolitan Police Service 1112 with the resignation of the commissioner and Mr Yates. be charged and brought to justice. However, there was What are the Government doing to stabilise the situation? a clear difference between the Prime Minister’s They are introducing legislation to scrap the Metropolitan employment of Andy Coulson and the fact that the Police Authority, threatening yet more disruption. That Met was investigating these matters but failed to identify is the last thing that the Metropolitan police force to the Home Secretary, who has made her views very needs now. I believe that Third Reading of the police clear, that Neil Wallis was involved with the Met. That Bill should be postponed so that the consequences of was denied to the Home Secretary as late as last week. the proposed legislation can be seen in the context of this week’s very disturbing events. Will the Minister 5.30 pm agree to that? Baroness Hamwee: The House will understand that the Minister cannot say anything other than she just 5.26 pm has about the Third Reading of the police Bill. However, in reflecting on it, as I am sure they will, will the Baroness Browning: My Lords, I thank the noble Government reconsider the proposed timing of the Lord for his opening remarks, particularly in respect introduction of their changes, particularly in London of the Metropolitan Police officers who have announced where we have these new unexpected factors in the that they are standing down. run-up to the Olympics? On his final point about the police and crime On a more detailed point, does the Minister agree commissioners, the noble Lord will know only too that a mechanism for registering interests and hospitality well, as he and I have debated this in some detail over that is available for inspection by everyone in public many weeks now, in Committee and on Report, that life, without investigation by the media, is of great there has always been a difference of opinion on this importance? The House will understand the irony of matter. The Government believe very firmly that chief relying on the media in this. What really matters is not officers should be held to account, on behalf of the what you register, but what you do. public, by police and crime commissioners for the way in which they conduct business—not operational Baroness Browning: I quite agree with the principle business—in their force. The public have been the that my noble friend Lady Hamwee has just espoused. losers in all this. They have lost confidence, and we Certainly, the investigations, and the recommendations believe that the police and crime commissioners, on that will come from them, will, I hope, show us the behalf of the public of their police force area, are the best way forward for things such as hospitality. Very answer to ensuring that the police are held to account often, these things come down to personal judgment. both for the way in which they tackle crime and for the All of us in public life have to make a personal way in which they prioritise and carry out what the judgment about some of these issues, and sometimes public want, which is a reduction in crime. we are bound by the spirit of the law as well as what is I suspect that there will always be a difference of said in the law. I therefore hope that when we see the opinion between this Bench and that Bench, as there final results of the investigations, they will include was when the Bill came to the Floor of the House, so I codes and practices that encapsulate the spirit of the am not in a position to say to the noble Lord, Lord law as well as the law itself. Hunt, that we intend to defer Third Reading of the Bill, which has reached its final stages now, having Lord Blair of Boughton: I declare a rather special gone through another place and had a great deal of interest. Until yesterday I was the last commissioner scrutiny in this place. of the Metropolitan Police. I am now the one before I have a long list in my folder, as the House may that. That is rather a striking position. The last time expect, of the details of what has happened in this commissioners resigned was in the 1880s; these were whole shocking affair that go back long before this Sir Edmund Henderson and Sir Charles Warren. The year. It is not my intention to read that out, primarily circumstances were somewhat different; Sir Edmund because I believe that Governments of parties on both resigned because the club of which he was a member sides of the House have recognised that these problems in Pall Mall had its windows broken by rioters. have not just occurred in the past few months— My question to the Minister is in two succeeding recommendations have been made to previous parts. First, does the resignation of two successive Governments. Frankly, that might be the tone of another Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police in just over place, but I hope that we might rise above that in this two and a half years indicate that something is gravely House and tackle the underlying problem and the way wrong with the political oversight and governance of to take the matter forward to bring back confidence in that body? Secondly, does the Minister agree that the police. there is a much wider question at hand than the grave The noble Lord mentioned Neil Wallis and the fact matters now entrusted to Lord Justice Leveson? My that the commissioner has stated that he could not concern is that we have a police Bill and the Winsor approach the Government with this because of a report, and we now have the Filkin and HMIC reports. conflict of interest. That applied as much to his Why does the Minister not agree that the Home Affairs Government as it did to the current Government. The Select Committee recommendation should now be put Prime Minister has set out very clearly the terms into place, and a royal commission into the mission, under which he employed Andy Coulson and has structure and governance of the police be appointed? quite rightly made it very clear that if, following police Every time this has been raised, the coalition Government investigations, Andy Coulson is found to be guilty of have said, “We have not got time”. I think we should anything of a criminal nature, he would expect him to take time now. 1113 Metropolitan Police Service[LORDS] Metropolitan Police Service 1114

Baroness Browning: While I hear what the noble calibre and integrity and are entirely independent? A Lord, Lord Blair, says about a royal commission, we number of former police officers are employed by the have, since he last raised this, put into place a series of IPCC at the moment, and I want reassurance that they investigations, reviews and reports that I hope will do not carry any past grudges against a particular throw light and transparency on to the problems that officer or force that polices the IPCC. he has identified as underlying the number of commissioners who have left. We do not know at this Baroness Browning: My Lords, I hear what the stage how deep those investigations will go and what noble Baroness says. I think we all want transparency they will show in conclusion, but we want them to be and clarity. If she is saying—I am not quite sure thorough and we believe they are all-embracing. whether I have understand this correctly—that there It may interest the House to know that since the question marks about the independence of individual Home Secretary’s Statement in another place just an members of the IPCC, I will certainly be happy to take hour ago, the Metropolitan Police Authority has referred that away and to have further discussion with her four cases to the IPCC. The IPCC is now considering about how it might be addressed. the referrals carefully to determine how they should be taken forward. That is perhaps an indication not just Lord Condon: My Lords, as someone who had the of the seriousness of the investigations before us but honour to serve as commissioner for seven years, I can of the depth to which they need to go, so although I say with absolute confidence that this is one of the hear what the noble Lord says about a royal commission, saddest and most disturbing days in the history of the people have now been appointed to carry out these Metropolitan Police Service. While clearly a number investigations and they should be allowed to carry of inquiries are in place that will undoubtedly get to them through to their conclusion. the bottom of the allegations and concerns that we are all so troubled by, does the Minister agree with me that Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, I declare an perhaps today is an opportunity in your Lordships’ interest as a current member of the Metropolitan House to remember that the vast majority of the men Police Authority, and associate myself with the very and women who serve in the Metropolitan Police are positive remarks that the Minister has made about Sir honest, decent, brave people who deserve our and the Paul Stephenson and John Yates. However, given what public’s support as they live through what is a very she has just said about the referrals to the IPCC, confusing and disturbing time for them? I in no way perhaps she could ponder for a moment what the prejudge the outcome of any of the allegations or circumstances of today would have been had the Bill inquiries, but I can say with absolute certainly, and I currently before this House been passed. hope the Minister will agree, that the overwhelming The Metropolitan Police Authority sub-committee majority of good men and women in the Metropolitan on professional standards met this morning to consider Police are doing an honourable, brave job. complaints against named officers. It considered those complaints, and, as the Minister has just reported to the House, it made recommendations in one instance Baroness Browning: I am very happy to support the that an officer be suspended, and in other instances words of the noble Lord, Lord Condon. Indeed, in her that matters now be investigated by the IPCC. Under Statement in the other place, the Home Secretary the Bill which she is steering through this House, that made a point of concluding her remarks on that basis. would not happen. Any allegations against individuals We are all conscious of the impact that this will have would be considered by the Commissioner of Police on morale, not just in the Met but rippling out more for the Metropolis or the Chief Officer of Police widely. There are in this House in particular former outside—of course the Commissioner of Police for senior police officers who have served their country the Metropolis has now resigned—who would then with great distinction. I pay tribute to all of them and decide whether something should be investigated or to the many people of all ranks who voluntarily police another officer suspended. Surely the interests of openness their own communities by consent. It is a great strength and public support for the process demand that there of British policing that it is by consent. I endorse be some independent structure to handle complaints entirely what the noble Lord, Lord Condon, said. I and consideration of whether an inquiry should be hope that leadership will be shown in police forces opened. That will disappear under this Bill. around the country to minimise the damage to morale from what has happened in the capital. Baroness Browning: Well, my Lords, again, this is a matter that the noble Lord and I have debated at some Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, when it lengths during the Committee and Report stages of became clear that there was no widespread public or the Bill. As he will know, we have disagreed over the professional support for the health Bill, the Prime internal handling of minor complaints within the police Minister wisely stepped back and paused the Bill for force. I have not changed my mind about that, but on consideration. What I find incredible in the noble more serious matters involving senior officers he will Baroness’s answers is that she does not seem to know that it is not simply the case that they will not be think that the events of the past couple of weeks investigated independently. Ultimately, there is recourse have had any impact on, or should be considered in to the IPCC. any way in connection with, the police Bill. Will she take this away and think about it? People across the Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, will the country who support the Metropolitan Police will Minister undertake to look at the present make-up of find it incredible if these events do not impact on the IPCC, and ensure that its staff are of the highest deliberations on the Bill. The best thing now would be 1115 Metropolitan Police Service[18 JULY 2011] Metropolitan Police Service 1116 for the Bill to be paused for consideration, and for the failed to address adequately the problem of providing Government then to come back with more effective leaders in the police in sufficient numbers to provide a and thought-out proposals. critical mass that can influence events and, in particular, ethics and attitudes in the service. Today we see the Baroness Browning: My Lords, I hear what the Metropolitan Police—a great force, as we all know—in noble Baroness says, but I am well aware, as she is, that what is colloquially known as “a very bad place”. We right from the start her party has opposed police and see that there is no clear succession plan in place for crime commissioners. Despite what has happened over the commissioner: and, worse, that there is a marked the past two weeks, there are those who have now shortage of suitable candidates. focused on the fact that police and crime commissioners In the light of recent events, will the Minister go will be there to represent the public, having been further today than the Leader of the House was able elected by them, and who will hold chief constables to to go last week when he replied to me, and give your account. While I hear what she says, many take a view Lordships’ House a firm reassurance that after the exactly opposite to hers. publication of the Winsor report at the end of the year, the Government will address the question of Lord King of Bridgwater: Perhaps I may say to my recruiting people of the highest quality into the police noble friend how much I appreciate the approach that in sufficient numbers, and of their training and deployment she has taken to responding to what is clearly a very into positions of intermediate and high rank on a difficult situation. As the noble Lord, Lord Condon, structured basis. I venture to suggest that this can be rightly said, there are deep concerns of vital importance implemented, notwithstanding the several reviews that at a very dangerous time in our country, for many have been mentioned. Can the Minister therefore indicate reasons, and there should be maximum public confidence any appetite in her Majesty’s Government for such a and trust in the police. I do not know whether I am the review of leadership as a matter of urgency? only person in your Lordships’ House who does not quite understand what is going on at the moment. Baroness Browning: My Lords, I am grateful to the Various allegations have been made, including in the noble Lord who, in the course of the Bill, has given Sunday papers, against Sir Paul Stephenson among advice and a very clear steer on the need for a pool of others, but at the moment I do not know whether any senior officers for whom leadership is a key component of them are true, and I do not understand why the in their training and development. The Government resignations have happened when they have. Perhaps take police leadership and issues affecting it very that will become clearer later on. seriously. Police leadership is key to ensuring that I understand that Sir Paul and Assistant Commissioner officers across England and Wales are able to provide Yates will give evidence tomorrow to a Select Committee a high-quality service to the public. Peter Neyroud set of the House of Commons. I look forward with great out his views on the future of police leadership and interest to what comes out of that. I hope that the training in his report of 5 April. The Government are wide-ranging investigation that has been announced, currently considering the responses received during along with other commendable actions, will be undertaken the consultation period on the report. We will set out with all due dispatch so that people can understand our position in due course, and we will set out our that these matters are now being gripped and we will response to the second part of Tom Winsor’s report get some clarity on the situation. following its publication next year. I hope the noble Lord is reassured that we are Baroness Browning: I thank my noble friend for taking on board the need for leadership to be placed at that. The inquiry by Lord Justice Leveson will be in the heart of policing. I have asked, during the passage two parts, as noble Lords will know. We hope that of the Bill, for volunteers to come forward and advise some aspects of the inquiry will be moved along more on the development of a pool of senior officers so quickly than others. We must let the inquiries have that, for example, when there are vacancies, there will enough time to get the outcome of full transparency be a good choice from as large a pool as possible of and disclosure. Therefore, I am tempted not to say people of the right standard, qualifications and leadership that I want them to be hurried up, because we need to skills. get this absolutely right. The Home Secretary announced an HMIC inquiry today, from which she has asked for Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, would it not be immediate feedback later in the summer. infinitely preferable for the Government, and particularly the Minister, to consider the events of the past few Lord Dear: My Lords, I, too, declare an interest. As hours and days with some calm, and therefore to some noble Lords know, I, too, served at a senior rank postpone reflection on the Bill until the Government in the British police service. I make no apology for have had a chance to come to a sensible reaction? revisiting an issue that I raised in your Lordships’ House as recently as Wednesday last week in the Baroness Browning: My Lords, I can only repeat to debate that followed the Statement on phone hacking. the noble Lord what I said to others who sought My contribution can be found in the Official Report of to identify this as a matter that should result in 13 July, in column 732. halting legislation on police reform and social I do not believe that it is unduly repetitious to responsibility—I believe that around the country police remind ourselves that leadership is important in any forces and communities are crying out for the sort of organisation, and that in the police service it is absolutely reform that the Government are bringing forward. I essential. Today, even more than last week, the issue is have not changed my mind since I made that point five paramount. For years, successive Governments have minutes ago. 1117 Metropolitan Police Service[LORDS] Defence Transformation 1118

Lord Prescott: My Lords, the whole House recognises our Armed Forces were still largely configured for the the importance of the Metropolitan Police’s contribution 20th century, despite a decade of sustained operations to safety and security in London and elsewhere. However, in Afghanistan and Iraq. This failure to set out a I must say that I welcome the resignation of Sir Paul coherent, long-term strategy for defence and to match Stephenson and John Yates. Both had a long and commitments to resources effectively is one of Labour’s unhealthy relationship with the Murdoch press over a worst legacies. However, it is not enough to deal with good period of time. Is the Minister aware of Sir the mess we inherited. We need to build something Paul’s statement that he did not know anything about better for the future. phone hacking? Does she accept it, and is she also So right from the start, this Government have been aware that Sir Paul visited the Guardian in December determined not to repeat the mistakes of the past and 2009 and February 2010 and asked the paper to desist to make the difficult decisions that were ducked by in its investigations, because the explanation of one the previous Government. We are determined to be rogue reporter had been accepted by the police and bold and ambitious and build formidable, well presumably by him? managed Armed Forces, structured for the rigours of Does the Minister also accept, with Sir Paul future conflict and supported by an affordable defence complaining that officers had not supported him, that programme. The SDSR has mapped out our long-term Mr Yates has admitted that there were sacks of evidence goal for Future Force 2020. The report of the Defence that he was not prepared to open to see whether there Reform Unit announced to the House on 27 June was were other cases of phone hacking? Did he then tell part of this process. the commissioner, “Don’t worry, this one story is all Today I want to set out the next phase of defence right.”? Did he tell the commissioner that the bags of transformation: bringing the Army back from Germany, evidence were available but that he had decided not to creating a better future for our Reserve Forces and open them? Frankly, considering Mr Yates’s resignation, delivering on our commitment to agree a 10-year the fact that he misled the House, the actions that he defence equipment budget. I have written to Members has been involved in and the fact that Sir Paul thought of both Houses and the devolved Administrations this man should not have resigned, did the Minister whose constituencies and interests are affected by the think of sacking him, because that would have been decisions we have taken. sufficient evidence to have anyone moved out of that kind of position of trust? Commitments must match resources in order to achieve a balanced budget. As part of the preparation for this year’s planning round, we have identified a Baroness Browning: My Lords, the noble Lord, I number of adjustments to the defence programme. know, has been a victim of phone hacking and raises This includes rationalising vehicle acquisition to make important issues. That is why the judicial inquiry and the best use of those we have procured to support the two inquiries that are being overseen by Sue Akers operations in Afghanistan and continuing to bear in the Metropolitan Police have been set up. I have down on non-front-line costs, where we will aim to every confidence in the Sue Akers inquiries. It is not deliver further substantial efficiencies in support, estate for me as a Home Office Minister to intervene in spending and IT provision. police operational matters, but I hope that the noble Lord’s points, which are very important, will be dealt Against this background and as part of this overall with by the inquiries. approach to balancing the programme, I have agreed with the Treasury that the MoD can now plan on the defence equipment and equipment support budget Baroness O’Loan: My Lords— increasing by 1 per cent a year in real terms between 2015 and 2016, and 2020 and 2021. I am grateful to Defence Transformation colleagues, particularly the Prime Minister, for their Statement support in this process. These and other changes will enable us to proceed with a range of high-priority programmes set out in the SDSR. 5.51 pm I can now give the go-ahead for the procurement of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry 14 additional Chinook helicopters, the upgrade of the of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My Lords, I would Army’s Warrior vehicles, spending on the Joint Strike like to repeat a Statement that was made earlier by my Fighter, the procurement of the Rivet Joint intelligence right honourable friend the Secretary of State for and surveillance aircraft, the cat and traps for the Defence. Queen Elizabeth class carriers, and the development “Mr Speaker, I wish to express my condolences to of the global combat ship. This equipment can now be the family and friends of Lance-Corporal Paul Watkins bought with confidence, ending a decade of uncertainty of the 9th/12th Royal Lancers who was killed in for our Armed Forces and for industry. But similar Afghanistan on Sunday. My thoughts and prayers are discipline will be applied in future— we will only order with them at this very difficult time. what we can afford to buy. I wish to make a Statement on the next steps in Today I am placing in the Library the report of the implementing the strategic defence and security review review into the Reserve Forces, Future Reserves 2020.I (SDSR). This Government inherited both a national would like to thank General Sir Nick Houghton, economic disaster that represented a strategic threat Lieutenant-General Graeme Lamb and the honourable and a defence programme undermined by a £38 billion Member for Canterbury and Whitstable for their excellent black hole. Without a fundamental review for 12 years, report. The report makes it clear that our Reserve 1119 Defence Transformation[18 JULY 2011] Defence Transformation 1120

Forces make an outstanding contribution to operations Ireland, and 160 Wales Brigade will remain in Brecon. but have been shamefully neglected in recent years. We will retain St Athan at its current size and intend For example, by some estimates the Territorial Army to increase its usage. RAF Marham will remain as a has a trained and active strength as low as 14,000. So I base for Tornado GR4. More details of these and am pleased to announce that the Government will other estate-related decisions are in the Written Statement proceed with a £1.5 billion investment package over I have laid today. the next 10 years—£400 million in this Parliament—to The planning work, including the investment required enhance the capability of the reserves and consequently to adapt sites, will now get under way based on this increase their trained strength. strategic direction. It will involve consultations as The Government will work with employers and appropriate with local communities and other statutory legislate if necessary to ensure that the reserves are obligations we will need to fulfil. I am very conscious more readily usable on operations. This significant of the uncertainties that these changes will cause for investment will also build up the capacity of the service personnel and their families. Let me reassure reserves to contribute to homeland security, consistent them that the majority of the moves I have announced with the adaptive posture set out in the SDSR. As the today will take place after 2015. In both basing and capability of the Territorial Army improves, this will reserves, we have sought wherever possible to strengthen allow a progressive adjustment of the regular/reserve the strong and natural links between local communities balance of the Army while maintaining the land forces’ and the Armed Forces. I do not underestimate the capability set out in the SDSR. This will include the importance of these ties in underpinning the military delivery of the multi-role brigade (MRB) structure of covenant. Future Force 2020. By 2020, if the Territorial Army The overall package I have announced today is develops in the way that we hope, we envisage a total good news for our Armed Forces and means that they force of around 120,000 broadly in the ratio of 70:30, can look forward to the future with renewed confidence regular to reserve. This will be more in line with because the defence programme I have announced is comparable countries such as the United States, Canada underpinned with real resources. This investment in and Australia. people and equipment is not the wish list of the past Let me turn to basing. The decisions we have taken but is certainty for the future. I commend these decisions in the SDSR to reduce aircraft types, bring the Army to the House”. back from Germany and form the Army into five My Lords, that concludes the Statement. multi-role brigades enable us to rationalise the defence estate and dispose of high-value sites no longer needed. 6.03 pm The security of the nation and the requirements of defence were paramount in our analysis but we have Lord Rosser: My Lords, on this side, we, too, wish also considered the impact of changes on local to express our sincere condolences at this very difficult communities, the impact on service personnel and time for them to the family and friends of Lance their families, and the current pattern of the Armed Corporal Paul Watkins who was killed in Afghanistan Forces in Britain. Army brigades currently stationed the other day. around Catterick and Salisbury will make up three of I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement the five MRBs. The other two MRBs will be based on made a few minutes ago in the other place by the the east coast of England, centred on Cottesmore, and Secretary of State for Defence. It covers a number of in Scotland, centred on Kirknewton, south of Edinburgh. big policy areas: the RAF basing review, Reserve Forces, the financial settlement and cuts to the Regular The MRB centred in Scotland will require a new Army. The Statement, as did the strategic defence and training area, and positive discussions are being taken security review, repeats the Government’s line about forward with the Scottish Executive. Two major units the financial position they inherited, which arose as a and a formation headquarters will be based at Leuchars. result of a global economic recession which was not Consequently, the Typhoon force due to be built up sparked off in this country. The Statement refers to a there will instead be built up at RAF Lossiemouth. £38 billion black hole, but that figure assumes a flat Other MRB units will be moved into Glencorse, line in cash terms in the defence budget over the Caledonia, Albemarle Barracks and eventually Arbroath, coming years; in other words, a decline in real terms, since over time we intend to bring the bulk of the which is unlikely. It also assumes that every commitment, Royal Marines together in the south-west. We are also including equipment, will be adhered to. planning to place Army units in Kinloss in around 2014-15. Taken together, this represents a significant The National Audit Office 2009 report into major increase in the defence footprint in Scotland of well projects at the Ministry of Defence stated: over 2,000 posts. This is in line with the Scottish “If the Defence budget remained constant in real terms, and tradition of supporting our Armed Forces and a using the Department’s forecast for defence inflation of 2.7 per recognition that these are United Kingdom forces cent the gap would now be £6 billion over the next ten years. If … there was no increase in the defence budget in cash terms over the under the Crown, protecting the citizens and interests same ten year period, the gap would rise to £36 billion″. of this United Kingdom. I appreciate that this Government have managed to With the move to five multi-role brigades, we have reduce the rate of growth during their period in office, concluded that 19 Light Brigade in Northern Ireland but presumably even this Government intend to ensure will be disbanded. Other units returning from Germany that growth in the economy, from which additional will move into those bases vacated. We remain committed resource can be provided, returns at some stage in the to maintaining a permanent military garrison in Northern not-too-distant future. 1121 Defence Transformation[LORDS] Defence Transformation 1122

[LORD ROSSER] Do the Government consider them less effective, more The recent strategic defence and security review, effective or of equal worth and value person for person? which seems, with every MoD Statement, to be becoming How is such an assessment made and by whom? The less related to reality and expected reality, stated: boost to our Reserve Forces is, it would seem, intended “Further work is required to determine the numbers of personnel to make up for the fact that our Regular Forces are that will be required to man the 2020 Force Structure. The being reduced. Defence Reform Review, the review of Reserve Forces, further The Statement, referring to the Army, indicated efficiency measures and changes in the policy context will all need that two major units and a formation headquarters to be taken into account at the next Strategic Defence and Security Review, which will set out detailed plans for the five will be based at Leuchars. Does this mean that RAF years beyond 2015 ... We will also, for now, assume that by 2020 Leuchars will close? Will the Minister for clarity say we will require a Royal Navy of 29,000 personnel, an Army of how many personnel and what personnel are currently 94,000 and an RAF of 31,500”. based at Leuchars and how many personnel and what Yet the Government have announced cuts to the Army personnel will be based at Leuchars once these changes of 17,000—a sixth of the entire force—in just 10 months. have been implemented? What will be the cost of that However, in opposition, the Government said: change, who will be paying for it, and how long will “In the real world the only logical conclusion you can come to the time lag be between the moving out of present is that the army is already too small”. personnel from Leuchars and the moving in of the The SDSR referred to members of the Reserve new personnel? What is the Government’s assessment Forces performing outstandingly well in Afghanistan, of this change on the local economy? and we share that view and pay tribute to the commitment The Statement referred to the savings that would be and dedication of our Reserve Forces and to the real realised by the reduction in regular personnel. It stated contribution they play in protecting our own citizens that money would therefore become available for and the lives of others in operations abroad. The SDSR reinvestment in our Reserve Forces and also for the also referred to the six-month study being undertaken construction of additional Chinook helicopters, which into the future role and structure of the Reserve was an undertaking the Prime Minister gave. We welcome Forces and the Statement today includes the Government’s any additional investment in our Armed Forces, and response to that review. We, too, would wish to place not least the £1.5 billion investment package over the on record our thanks to General Sir Nicholas Houghton, next 10 years to enhance the capability of the reserves, the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, and his two and the increase in the defence equipment and equipment colleagues who undertook the review. Will the Minister support budget by 1 per cent a year in real terms—though say whether the review suggested that the reductions we note that that is not until 2015-16. Can the Minister in the Regular Forces should be made in the light of confirm, though, that this means there will be no their recommendations on the Reserve Forces? increase in real terms in the rest of the core defence The Government have said that they will be budget from 2015-16 to 2020-21? undertaking a strategic defence and security review We are seeing additional resources having to be every five years. They now appear already to be making devoted to our operations over Libya, which is being policy decisions on the structure and composition of paid for from the general reserve, and also the need to our Armed Forces for the five years between 2015 and finance the additional Chinooks promised by the Prime 2020, the period to be covered by the next defence Minister. To conclude, what meaningful assurances review. What then are the strategic decisions and goals can the Minister give that today’s further announcements, that have been made and determined for the five years which we will certainly wish to study in far more detail from 2015 to 2020 which the decisions announced in than we have been able to so far, have not been the Statement today are presumably intended to deliver? influenced by financial considerations, but purely by Is it the Government’s approach that our strategy for military considerations? the five years from 2015 to 2020 will be determined by the Armed Forces that we have decided we will have Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am very grateful rather than our required defence strategy for those to the noble Lord. He asked me lots of questions years being determined first and then consideration which I was writing down as fast as I could. I will do being given to how to provide the Armed Forces my best to answer as many as I can, and if I do not needed to support and deliver that strategy? answer them all, I undertake to write to him. If the Reserve Forces are to constitute some 30 per The noble Lord first asked about the SDSR. In cent of our forces, rather than less than 20 per cent, to announcing the SDSR, the Prime Minister was clear what extent will they become stand-alone units? There that in his view the Future Force 2020 structure will be concerns if bespoke standing units of reservists would require real year-on-year growth in the defence were to become the norm since this could increase the budget beyond 2015. The announcement today that commitment required from civilians and therefore the MoD can plan on an increase in equipment and an potentially hinder recruitment. Will this approach not equipment support programme in the years before the also undermine the one army concept? It appears as spending review settlement means that the department though the review highlighted the cost of Reserve has a firm base for its longer term plans. This will Forces compared with the cost of Regular Forces. In enable the department to make better value-for-money view of the proposed increase in the percentage of our decisions, and makes clear this Government’s commitment Armed Forces who will be reserves and the significant to deliver the forces necessary to meet our future reduction in regulars, how do the Government evaluate commitments. the abilities, experience and expertise of our Reserve The noble Lord then asked if there are going to be Forces against those of the Regular Army personnel? reductions in the regular Armed Forces because of 1123 Defence Transformation[18 JULY 2011] Defence Transformation 1124 cuts in reserves. We are confident that with the additional 6.17 pm investment, the reprioritisation and efficiency improvement Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, first, I join these and the planned withdrawal from combat operations Benches in the earlier tribute. Very recently, the Leader in Afghanistan we can rebalance the Army in particular, of the Opposition offered talks with the coalition so that we can have a whole force of around 120,000 Government on the future of financing long-term care with a ratio of about 70 per cent regulars to 30 per in this country. I suggest that, important as long-term cent Territorial Army. This will allow us to maintain care is, defence is of equal importance. Would it not an enduring commitment at brigade level as described make sense for the coalition Government to attempt in the SDSR. As the Secretary of State has said, the to talk to the Opposition about getting a unified role of the Territorial Army has been greatly undervalued approach to defence spend? That is my main point. too often in the past. It will continue to have an important role in the Army. I would like to put two smaller points to my noble friend. First, will he confirm that the proceeds of the The noble Lord then asked about strategic decisions sale of valuable defence sites and buildings will be and the Future Force 2020. We are confident that with retained within the defence budget? Secondly, can he the additional investment, the reprioritisation and indicate the total costs of withdrawal from Germany efficiency improvements and the planned withdrawal and the necessary rehousing of those units in this country? from combat operations in Afghanistan, together with a rebalancing of Regular and Reserve Forces, we can Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am grateful to my generate the forces required to achieve the objectives noble friend for his tribute. As for as his question in the SDSR, including the ability to maintain an about opening discussions with Her Majesty’s Opposition, enduring commitment at brigade level as described in he has raised this before; I am very happy to take it the SDSR. back to my department and come back, and I will let The noble Lord asked about the expertise of reservists. my noble friend know what the answer is. As far as I have some personal experience: I was for a number of proceeds of defence sales are concerned, the answer is years colonel of a Sapper TA regiment. They had yes: they will remain in the MoD budget. As far as the expertise of a very high order, they were very highly total cost of withdrawal from Germany is concerned, I trained, and whenever they went out to Afghanistan do not have any figures on this at the moment. We are they were very much respected by the Regular working on it, and as soon as I have some figures I will Forces with which they trained. This is an issue that let my noble friend know. we will be working on. Clearly, recruiting, which the noble Lord mentioned, is vital. A recruiting and Lord Stirrup: My Lords, having served as honorary training surge will be needed to meet the demands of colonel of a TA Royal Engineer regiment I confirm the revised reservist roles, and to provide for more what the Minister has said about the TA’s expertise viable unit strength. The establishment of an effective and utility. However, in repeating the Statement made recruiting and training mechanism to handle the potential in another place the Minister referred to models from surge requirement will be an essential precondition of other countries: Canada and the United States. Part of success if reserve manpower decline is to be arrested, the reason for the success of the reservist element initially, and then increased. This should include rapid of their forces has very much to do with the culture of changes to existing processes and regulations to make those countries and the background from which those it more attractive for ex-regulars to join the reserves people come. It has to do with the way that reservists on leaving. are honoured and celebrated within society; the view that ordinary citizens and employers across the board The noble Lord then asked whether RAF Leuchars take of their service. is closing. Leuchars is not being closed. It will become I do not for one moment suggest that we could not a major Army base. Following the SDSR, the Royal have a similar culture in this country but it would be a Air Force needed three, not four, RAF fast-jet bases. It change from that which we currently have. As we could not make military sense, and would be uneconomic, recognise, change in culture is a difficult thing to do. It to close RAF Marham or RAF Coningsby. A decision takes time, commitment and a sustained effort across had to be taken that was best for defence as a whole. that period of time, and it has to be led from the top. With the Tornado force drawing down at Lossiemouth, What strategy does the Minister have? What strategy we concluded that we could build up the Typhoon do the Government have for this transformation of force there rather than continuing at RAF Leuchars, culture, which will be essential if the very demanding enabling Leuchars to be utilised for the MRB to be recruitment targets he has outlined today for the TA based in Scotland. have any hope of being met in the future? The noble Lord mentioned the Chinooks, and I can confirm that we will be ordering the 12 plus the two Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, the noble and very early on in the autumn. He welcomed the 1 per gallant Lord makes an excellent point about the culture cent increase and asked if would it affect the rest of of the reserves in the United States, Canada and other the defence budget. Her Majesty’s Treasury has countries. We are aware that this area will need a lot of agreed that we may plan on the basis of an uplift work and we are determined to make this whole issue of equipment expenditure, and equipment support of the reserves successful. We will work on it. Part of year-on-year of 1 per cent above inflation in the this issue is mentioned in the booklet. I very much years beyond the current spending period. Finally, look forward to discussions with the noble and gallant all these decisions were taken solely on military Lord about any further ideas on how we can take this considerations. forward. 1125 Defence Transformation[LORDS] Defence Transformation 1126

Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, given the by the Territorial Army, which over the past decade shortage of time, let me focus on just the procurement has seen a dramatic reduction in their numbers and issues. My noble friend has dealt with the £38 billion their utility in the field of conflict. Will my noble myth. I am very sorry that the Government are still friend convey to the Ministry of Defence and General descending to using it. It is of course a completely Houghton—I, together with my colleagues pay tribute bogus figure based on, as he said, quite unreasonable to the diligence of his work over the past two years in assumptions. It is really a very silly, as well as a very this regard—to please look at the skills required by the disingenuous, piece of propaganda. Reserve Forces in conjunction with the demands not Apart from that, perhaps I may surprise the noble only of employers but also their willingness to identify Lord—because I believe in giving credit where credit is the skills that could be available? I see the Reserve due—by congratulating him. I do not think that 1 per Forces as playing a crucial role not only in homeland cent in real terms is enough. I would rather have security but abroad within specific skill sets. 1.5 per cent, which is what we had when we were in Government. Of course, the sustainable long-term Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am very grateful growth rate of the economy is generally reckoned at to my noble friend for his question. I agree that we being 2.25 per cent. Nevertheless, 1 per cent is considerably have seen major reductions in the TA recently. I will better than what we have now got. The noble Lord convey his congratulations to my department and to and his ministerial colleagues are to be congratulated General Sir Nick Houghton and his co-members for on a reasonably successful outcome on what must their excellent work on Future Reserves 2020. I know have been a very difficult negotiation with the Treasury that they spent hours and hours agonising about this and, no doubt, with No. 10 Downing Street, but I do review. I will also ask my department to look at the not think that they understand much about military issue that he raised about the skills required and how matters these days. we can work on that with employers. I do not resile at all from the critiques I have made Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, while in the past, particularly about the disappearance of welcoming the general trend of this Statement—it carrier strike capability, but the announcements that is 30 years since I was involved actively in military the Minister has made today on procurement are matters—will the Minister clarify exactly what he is extremely important. I am delighted about the Warrior saying in terms of Northern Ireland? As regards upgrade. That was the only project, which was a recruitment in Scotland, I read that certain things will priority of mine, that I failed to get through in my time happen, of office and would have been my first priority after “in line with the Scottish tradition of supporting our Armed the election if we had won it. The Rivet Joints are an Forces”. enormously important intelligence asset and it is great At the same time, I think I read that there will be a news that that is going through. virtual disconnection between the military in Northern Fourteen Chinooks is not as good as the 22 which Ireland and pertaining to Northern Ireland in the we were going to order but, again, it is a good deal future. That is totally unacceptable. There is a tradition—I better than nothing, which has been happening up am proud to say that I was part of that tradition for a until now. Will the noble Lord say the projected in-service number of years—in Northern Ireland, which was dates for these Chinooks? Obviously, there will be highlighted during the Troubles and during the invasion different dates. What are the in-service dates for the of Normandy. Most recently, when I visited troops in Rivet Joint aircraft? What are the expected in-service Afghanistan, the commander in charge of Camp Bastion dates for the new upgraded Warriors with the 45 millimetre said of the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish that they have cannon and so forth? Will he say how many of the achieved more in four months than would have been Rivet Joint aircraft and how many of the upgraded expected of them in a full tour. Is that going to be Warriors the Government intend to procure? sacrificed? Are we going to have another instalment of what I would call “Heathism”; that is, detaching Northern Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am very grateful Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom? If that to the noble Lord for his support. Perhaps I may were to happen, the resentment in Northern Ireland correct him on what he said about the Prime Minister. among those who have served faithfully for so many I have had a meeting on defence issues with him and I years and at such a cost would be deeply felt. can assure the noble Lord that he takes the whole issue of the Armed Forces and equipment very seriously. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am well aware of Defence of the realm is the first duty of a Government, the tradition in Northern Ireland of support for our which he takes very seriously. I am sorry to disappoint Armed Forces. I served in Northern Ireland as a the noble Lord there. soldier and I am well aware of that. Indeed, my driver The noble Lord welcomed the Warrior upgrade came from Northern Ireland. I can confirm that we and the Rivet Joint. I can confirm that we will order have no wish whatever to detach Northern Ireland three Rivet Joints. I do not have the in-service date for from the rest of Britain. The Statement makes clear the Chinooks. We are very near a point where we can that other Army units returning from Germany will go ahead with the ordering and as soon as I have the move into those bases that were vacated, and we in-service date I will make a point of writing to the remain committed to maintaining a permanent military noble Lord to let him know the answer to that. garrison in Northern Ireland. Lord Freeman: My Lords, my noble friend the Lord Burnett: My Lords, I apologise to the House Minister, I am sure, will realise that this Statement will for missing the very earliest part of the Statement, be warmly welcomed by the Reserve Forces, in particular which I welcome. Our reservists do outstanding work. 1127 Defence Transformation[18 JULY 2011] Defence Transformation 1128

Will my noble friend confirm that the reserves will Cat and traps is shorthand for catapults and arrester continue to welcome retired servicemen into the wires. Do I assume, because the Statement seems to reserve service? Will the outcome of this Statement say it, that we are intending to put catapults and make the reserve service more attractive to former arrester wires on the “Queen Elizabeth” and the “Prince servicemen? I would remind the House that Corporal of Wales”? Croucher, George Cross, a Royal Marines reservist, was a regular Royal Marine, as was Corporal Seth Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I agree with the Stephens, Conspicuous Gallantry Cross, a special boat noble Lord that this is a very complicated issue which service reservist who was killed in action in Afghanistan will take a lot of study. I am very happy to organise last year. further briefings for noble Lords if they would like on any particular issue, be it on the reserves or basing or Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am very grateful anything else. I am grateful that the noble Lord to my noble friend for his support. Service personnel, supports the increase in spending, albeit of 1 per cent, the Veterans Agency and the single services are which will enable us to do quite a lot. I can confirm working together to simplify their business processes that the cats and traps will be for one carrier—at the and ensure that their advice and guidance help to moment, we do not know which one it is. Whether to improve transfer between commitments; that is, to make equip the other carrier with them will be a decision for it easier for transfer between the regulars and the the 2015 SDSR. reserves. A service-terms and conditions-of-service subject-matter expert has been appointed for each Lord Grenfell: My Lords, perhaps I may put a service to advise and educate those involved. Work question to the Minister on reserves. Any declaration continues to look at ways of streamlining the processes. of interest that I might make would probably be otiose My noble friend makes a very important point: we in light of the statute of limitations, since it is 55 years want to get as many former regulars into the reserves since I joined the Territorial Army. I joined the very as possible. happily named Queen’s Westminsters and spent nine years feeling that we were doing something useful. Of Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, the Minister has outlined course, in those days, we had already done two years’ some very welcome news about the reserves in particular service, which meant that, when we arrived in the and the increase in spending by 1 per cent in real territorial battalions, we knew a little bit about what terms. When I speak to senior people in government, we were expected to do having had some training and the answer to my first question about defence is, felt that we were ready for anything. That may partly “There’s no money”. When I speak to senior service answer the very good point made by the noble and officers, they talk about “mitigating” and “removing gallant Lord that the culture has changed. In those capability”. This Statement shows that the Government days, the culture in the country was much more receptive are willing to listen. With Libya, we have seen that we to the idea of territorial service. could have done with an aircraft carrier, that we could I welcome what was in the Statement that the have done with Harriers and that we could have done Minister has repeated to us. It is true that, as the with the Nimrod, yet the Nimrod was just dismantled. decades have passed, as the noble Lord, Lord Freeman, Was it really worth doing that? Was it not short-sighted? pointed out, the Territorial Army has suffered from What if something happens in the Falklands? What the depredations of the Treasury. Therefore, I welcome about our nuclear submarines having AWACS cover? what the Statement says about its strengthening. It is Have we not learnt? Have we been penny-wise and right that we should try to bring the regular-to-reserve pound-foolish? Have we put means before ends? ratio further into balance; I think 70:30 is right. I spent many years in the United States and was very Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am very grateful impressed by the fact that there was a culture there to the noble Lord for his support. We inherited a very which made that ratio possible. It is possible to recreate difficult situation; it was not perfect. We tried to do it. Are the Government fully aware of the enormous the very best we could under the circumstances. I did value of service in the reserves, not just for an increase not feel comfortable with a lot of the cuts, but under in military capacity but also because of the social and the financial circumstances, we had no alternative. community value that it represents? It provides young people of both sexes with experience that enhances Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I thank the their working-life prospects. Will the Minister assure Minister for the Statement. It is highly complicated us that, in the important recruitment that will have to and will take a lot of study before one can give very take place if we are to achieve that balance, sufficient sensible comments on it. In general terms, I have no resources will be devoted to the recruitment programme? doubt that we need a greater increase in defence Our ability to reach 70:30 will depend on us being able spending and I would hope that both sides of the to convince a sceptical public that service in the reserves House felt that was appropriate in the future. I am is worth while. Her Majesty’s Government would gain very supportive of the withdrawal from Germany— greatly from paying attention to the social and community it should have happened previously; it has cost us a value of the reserves and from making sure that the huge amount of money having those forces there. regular forces are fully engaged in helping in that I like the basing of the marines down in the south-west. recruitment drive. My question is brief, just for clarity. The Statement said: Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I am grateful to the “I can now give the go ahead for … the cat and traps for the noble Lord for his contribution. I know what a Queen Elizabeth class carriers”. distinguished officer he was, both in the regular Army 1129 Defence Transformation[LORDS] Local Government Finance 1130

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] In the first phase of our review of local government and the reserves. Indeed, the noble Lord looked very resources, we have focused on local retention of business military in his regimental tie laying a wreath at the rates. As the House will know, the Government have Cenotaph yesterday. already taken action on business rates. We have introduced I am grateful for the noble Lord’s welcome of the a more generous small business rate relief scheme; we 70:30 ratio from his experience of living in the United are making it easier to get that relief without filling in States. Of course, we understand the value of service paperwork; and we have scrapped the unfair and in the reserves and will do our very best to ensure that regressive ports tax. Now we are looking at what sufficient resources are given to the reserves to make business rates mean for councils themselves. this all possible. Councils in England collect some £19 billion of business rates each year. No sooner has the cash come Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, in the rebalancing in than it is gathered up by the Treasury, and then of the Army into multi-role brigades, is any role to be redistributed to councils according to a complex retained for the main battle tank? If there is, where formula. This approach has major shortcomings: it will the training for it be able to be done, one wonders, denies councils control over locally raised resources; it with the loss of the training grounds in Germany. If deprives them of the certainty they need to plan their there is not to be any role for it, what consequential finances for the longer term; and it creates a disconnection plans are there for those regiments at present equipped between the success of local businesses and the state of with or trained for the use of Challenger? their own finances. Surely it is common sense for the system to encourage councils to boost local jobs Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I can confirm that and growth. Radical change is needed, and councils we will have fewer numbers of Challenger 2 tanks, themselves agree. but we very much value their use. There is of course In a major step for transparency, my department is the training area on Salisbury Plain—where I spent publishing today every representation made to the many happy hours. We are also in discussions with recent local government finance settlement. There is the Scottish Executive about the use of some land in a common theme. Councils believe the current system Scotland for training. is complex and opaque. They have to talk down their successes, and talk up their difficulties, in order to secure the best possible deal from Whitehall. To Local Government Finance address this, mere tinkering—adjusting the formula Statement here, amending the area cost adjustment there—will not be enough. 6.38 pm This Government are determined to repatriate business The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department rates. Today, I am publishing a consultation outlining for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): our proposals. No more will proud cities or historic My Lords, with the permission of the House, I shall counties be forced to come to national government now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable with a begging bowl. Councils will have greater control friend the Secretary of State for Communities and over cash, helping them plan for the longer term. Tax Local Government. The Statement is as follows. increment financing will let them borrow against “I would like to update the House on the Government’s anticipated increases in rates, giving them a new way review of local government finance. The past year has to invest in infrastructure, from transport projects to seen the beginnings of a long-awaited and much-needed regenerated town centres. Councils should see a direct shift in power: from national to local; from Whitehall link between the success of local businesses and their to the town hall. But if localism is to reach its potential, own cash flow. This will create the right incentives for the new legal freedoms must be matched by freedom them to work closely with local businesses. over finance. This is not a new idea. Reviews from Layfield in the 1970s onwards have emphasised that I am determined that the transition to a new scheme increasing local financial control is key to strengthening must be both responsible and fair. The Government’s local democracy. overriding priority continues to be deficit reduction. Strangely, the previous Government did nothing to In the spending review, we have set out the level of reform the system, despite a local government finance resources available for local government for the next Green Paper, a local government White Paper, the four years. In the interests of financial stability, for the Balance of Funding report and the Lyons inquiry. first two years of the retention scheme we intend to They did not even bother to issue a formal response to stick to these spending plans, but we will allow authorities Lyons’ 400-page report. to benefit from any growth in business rates above forecast levels. Beyond this spending review period, we By contrast, the coalition Government are delivering will look to align more closely local authority functions radical change. During the past year, we have begun and total business rate income. the phasing-out of ring-fencing, freed up £2.1 billion from restrictions and simplified more than 90 separate It is also of paramount importance to ensure our funding streams to fewer than 10. This is real progress. proposals on local government finance are balanced, But today we are committed to going further still: to fair and equitable, creating the right incentives for restoring our councils’ financial autonomy, while ensuring all areas to grow while protecting the most vulnerable. a fair deal for all communities whether in the north or We propose a number a measures and safeguards to the south. achieve this. 1131 Local Government Finance[18 JULY 2011] Local Government Finance 1132

First, poorer places will share in the increase of 6.47 pm growth with more prosperous areas. Those places with greatest dependency should, and will, continue Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank the noble to receive support while being allowed to keep the Baroness, Lady Hanham, for repeating the Statement products of enterprise, and those places which raise on local government finance and for the offer of a the greatest sums through business rates should plain English guide to be placed in the Library. I also expect to make a contribution. A system of tariffs thank her for the prospect of another local government and top-ups will make sure that we start from a fair Bill which might keep us busy for a few days. base. As the Deputy Prime Minister told the Local In a recent publication on local government finance, Government Association last month, we will ensure the Smith Institute observed that local government that no one will be worse off when the new system is finance has been a backwater for most national politicians. introduced than they would have been under the old Since the poll tax debacle, Ministers have been cautious system. about reforming local taxation, not least because the issue is seen as divisive and complex. The challenge is Secondly, as the House will well know, some areas to seek a lasting consensus on how to change the have strong natural economic advantages such as system in a way which satisfies councils which are rich high-value industries or concentrations of skilled as well as those which are poor. Indeed, that is the test workers. There will be no cap on the amount of for these proposals. business growth councils can benefit from. A council will always be better off as a result of growth. But if That is why we will look closely at the Government’s an area benefits disproportionately from growth in announcement because the devil is, of course, in the business rates, we propose to introduce a special detail. We should make it clear, as we did in another local levy to capture a share of that benefit. The place, that we back a funding system for local authorities money raised would be used, in the first instance, to which supports jobs and growth and encourages enterprise. fund a safety net, and this safety net would protect We support the taking forward of tax increment financing authorities experiencing exceptional shocks to their and the continuation of small business rate relief, and business rate take. we welcome the publication of the responses to the consultation. Yes, we support localism—but true localism, Thirdly, our proposals include the option of resetting which is why we have opposed the raft of centralising the whole system. If councils no longer had enough powers that the Secretary of State has taken to himself resources to meet local needs, the Government would in the Localism Bill. We also support localism in be able to recalculate the level of tariffs and top-ups matters of finance. across the whole system. We hear today that the proposals on local government Fourthly, support for mandatory and discretionary finance are balanced, fair and equitable, I think was rate relief will continue. Rate relief to the needy will be the term, but the precedents are not good. Where, for unaffected. National discounts and rate relief will example, is the fairness in the cuts we are seeing right continue to be supported, meaning no adverse change across the country to home helps and care services, to to such groups as charities, amateur sports clubs, street cleaning and bin collections? The Statement voluntary groups, those in hardship and eligible rural reiterates what the Deputy Prime Minister told the or small firms. LGA last month: no one will be worse off when the new system is introduced. Even if that is the case at Finally, we have reflected carefully on what our new the point of introduction—and we are not all reassured system means for business. Businesses—the creators by cast iron promises from the Deputy Prime Minister— of local jobs and wealth—need stability in this process. what will the position be at the end of year one, year They need certainty to plan for the long term. So let two or year three? Perhaps the Minister can tell us. me spell out in no uncertain terms that local firms will see no difference in the way they pay tax or the way the The Minister tells us that the spending review totals tax is set as a result of these changes. are to remain unchanged. Therefore, if there is a fixed pot of money for any council to gain, logically others I am placing in the Library a plain English guide so must be losing out. Can the Minister say what assessment that honourable Members’ constituents can understand has been made of winners and losers, and how this what our proposals would mean for them. We intend squares with the assurances of the Deputy Prime that business rates should be repatriated in 2013. We Minister? will bring forward a Local Government Finance Bill We recognise some of the weaknesses in the current to give our proposals legal effect. system. However, a local government finance system The publication of this consultation begins a debate that does not reflect needs and available resources that I hope will be wide-ranging and constructive. I could have disastrous consequences for some councils, want to work with all local authorities, representative while others would enjoy large surpluses compared to groups and political parties and build a consensus for existing budgeted expenditure. It remains to be seen lasting change. That consensus will be built on, putting whether the proposed detailed system of tariffs and power back in the hands of local councils and top-ups is a fair mechanism to ensure that all local communities; supporting local jobs and local firms; authorities have resources that are adequate to deliver and creating the conditions for renewed, sustainable services that are needed and that will allow all communities economic growth”. a chance to prosper. Our fear is that the poorest areas, with the most deprived communities and the smallest My Lords, that concludes the Statement. business base, will again miss out. Those very communities 1133 Local Government Finance[LORDS] Local Government Finance 1134

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] arrangement, pass some of them on to the Treasury. that saw their area-based grant cut, putting serviceslike The rest will be held by local government in year 3 and children’s centres at risk, through a finance settlement subsequent years. that singled them out for the heaviest cuts, will now With regard to the tariffs and top-ups, the control lose out on the localising of the business rates. totals will not change within the four-year spending We know that currently the formula grant is financed review. However, in areas where we believe the business significantly by local business rate income, and the rate is in excess of those totals, a tariff will be levied latter is forecast to grow as the grant is forecast to fall. that will help poorer areas, about which the noble The Government are planning to hold back something Lord spoke in terms of top-ups. There will be a swing like £2 billion in local business rate income to give of money between one and the others, so the poorest effect to these cuts. Business rate localisation would areas will be given the help that they need. clearly be one way of stopping this. However, what The £2.5 billion that will be held by local authorities will happen to the surplus business rate, amounting to will be directed to other local grants. It is suggested some £2.2 billion in 2014-15? Will it now be available that the levy, which again is a matter for consultation, to local authorities or will it be retained centrally? Can will be on top of the business rates, from which local the Minister tell us the forecast baseline above which authorities make what is called in the consultation local authorities will be able to benefit from growth in paper a disproportionate amount. They will then share business rates? The Statement refers to an area benefiting that through a top slice with other authorities. disproportionately from growth in business rates, which will be subject to a special local levy to capture a share Lord McKenzie of Luton: The Minister answered a of the benefit. How will it be determined that an area number of the questions I raised. Could she tell us is benefiting disproportionately from growth in business how the test of disproportionately benefiting from rates? business rates is going to be set? Cutting funding to areas with the highest need does not free councils from central control or empower Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I think I am going to them. It stops them from doing the things that their direct the noble Lord to the consultation, because this communities need of them. If people do not believe is one of the areas where we want to talk to local that their council can make a difference, it does not authorities to understand the nature and impact of encourage civic activism; it undermines it and fuels a that issue. At the moment, I do not think I can give a sense of disengagement from the political process. We substantive answer, but it will be in an authority that want a funding system that supports jobs and encourages has access to far more business rates than perhaps enterprise. However, as the Minister recognised, not other local authorities comparably. every area has the same ability to attract investment and new businesses. Not everywhere can be like Lord Tope: My Lords, I thank the Minister for Westminster or the City of London. Areas with the repeating the Statement in this House, and also for the highest levels of deprivation and the weakest business plain English guide being put in the House of Lords base need the most support; they do not need funding Library, which I am sure will sell like hot cakes before cuts. We will support incentives to boost enterprise the summer holidays. I also congratulate the Minister and put councils and communities in control, but on resisting the temptation to start answering the fairness must be at the heart of the system. questions posed in the consultation document before that document has actually been seen by those being consulted. Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord I warmly welcome the commitment of the coalition for his comments and contributions. From the outset, Government to start delivering on a promise that I I remind noble Lords that this is a consultation. Therefore think has been made by every opposition party since definitive answers may not be pouring out of my mouth, the Conservative Government first nationalised business although I will do my best to answer as much as I can rates over 20 years ago. It is understandable that local about the consultation. However, technical documents authorities will want to look at the detail and consider will be ready by August to back up the consultation, particularly the proposed equalisation scheme. Does so some of the points will be considered there. the Minister agree that, when they have done so, this I am grateful to the noble Lord for his indication proposal is likely to receive a warm welcome throughout that he supports funding for jobs and enterprise. Naturally the country by councils under any political control? that is what we are trying to achieve. I am also glad Does she agree that probably the repatriation of business that he supports the tax incentive finance, which will rates is arguably the best boost to business regeneration come about as a result of business growth and will be that this Government—certainly her department—can a useful area for borrowing. provide? Finally, will she confirm that the setting of The noble Lord referred to the fairness in cuts. The the tax rate will continue to be done centrally in line whole process will start in 2012. At the start of this with the retail prices index; and can she say whether, at spending review, for the first two years there will be any stage in the future, the Government propose to no change at all. Only in year 3 will we begin to see introduce an element of localisation into the setting of the changes with the business rate being kept within the tax rate? the local community. We are proposing that in years 1 and 2 it will stay as it is, and in year 3, Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank my noble instead of the local authorities collecting the friend Lord Tope for his kindly and warm welcome for business rates and passing them on to the Treasury, this consultation document. I agree with him that they will collect the business rates and, under an local government will be content with this proposal; 1135 Local Government Finance[18 JULY 2011] Local Government Finance 1136 whether it is content with all the details will come out The compensation system will be the tariffs and the in the consultation. As long as I have been involved in top-ups. The expectation is that the control totals that local government, and since the rate began to be set are in place at the moment for the four-year spending centrally, local government has looked to having the review will stay in place. However, with the retention business rate repatriated—in that it does not go out of the business rate, as the noble Lord has rightly said, and come back in again but is contained within local some areas will have a far higher business rate than authorities. The repatriation of the business rate is a others and will be able to generate more. At the start, good thing. The setting of the rate for the grant will the tariff will be set at the level of those that have continue to be set centrally, for the time being at least. higher rates; the expectation is that, above that, money As far as I know at the moment, that will continue to will be taken off and passed to those in the poorest be the situation. areas. There will be a sort of balancing between them. The noble Lord asked how there would be growth. Lord Beecham: My Lords, to follow the pointed last The rate will encourage local government to talk to question of the noble Lord, Lord Tope, does it not businesses and encourage the development of businesses, make rather a nonsense of the fine phrase about because they will be able to retain some of the extra “freedom over finance” when all that is being restored rate that comes from that. I hope that that answers the is the right to retain business rates at a level decreed by noble Lord’s questions. the Government, with no capacity to vary it one way or the other at the local level? Is it not also the case Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I, too, like my that the vaunted reduction in ring-fencing, which in noble friend Lord Tope, warmly welcome the main principle is to be welcomed, really amounts at present thrust of what is proposed in this consultation paper. simply to more freedom to spend less and to incur the Like him, I admire my noble friend’s refusal to try to odium of taking the decisions over cuts in services that answer the questions that are asked in the consultation the Government are imposing on authorities through paper. We are very grateful for the repetition of the the significant, massive and unprecedented reduction Statement; indeed, it reads very well. in the government grant? I have two points to make. I was the Secretary of There is a sentence in the Statement that says: State who introduced the nationalisation, as it has been called, of the business rate. One has to remember “Beyond this spending review period, we will look to align more closely local authority functions and total business rate what lay behind that—namely, that 20 years ago we income”. examined the question of the local authorities and What does that mean? What are the implications of who paid, who benefited and who voted. This was not that sentence? a coterminous group, although there were some overlaps As for the fairness between authorities, is it not striking of course, but businesses, particularly small businesses, that the City of London stands to gain £545 million a felt that they were being overcharged by local authorities year in increased business rate income and the entire fixing the rate to get the benefit of the revenue so that authorities in the north-east of England stand to lose they could provide extra benefits for those who voted £544 million a year? For how long and to what extent but who perhaps did not contribute any rates. That is will losses in authorities such as those in the north-east what my noble friend has to avoid. What has been be compensated? There are many others; Birmingham, proposed in this consultation paper goes a long way for example, will lose £300 million. Will the losses be towards that; it was very reassuring when she said that fully met and, if so, for how long? Is the Minister the business rate would still be set nationally and that aware that in a debate in Westminster Hall, Andrew it would not be open to local authorities to change Stunell, who is a Minister in the department, seemed that. While one would like to feel that setting the rate to indicate that it would be for a year? Is that the could make it more responsive to business requirements, position? the fact of the matter is that we had many years of experience of that and it did not work. Finally, how will this compensation adjustment be made? Is there any detail in the consultation paper The one point on which I disagree with my noble about how these huge imbalances are to be addressed, friend Lord Tope is that I hope that the Government or is it another case of politics in the style of the late are not tempted to go down the road of letting local lamented Tommy Cooper, whereby things will happen authorities fix the business rate themselves. They do “just like that”? not vote and yet they would be asked to pay what might be quite substantial sums. Indeed, when I had to deal with local authorities, they were asked to raise Baroness Hanham: The noble Lord said it so nicely, very substantial sums. I just issue that warning to my he will almost be able to go on the stage and do noble friend. Tommy Cooper, but I am sure he does not really want I end by saying that I think this is a valuable first to do that. step. I am not sure that I will take the Green Paper At the outset I remind the noble Lord that local away with me during the Recess, as I have a number of government finance is at the level that it is because of other papers to read as well, but I look forward to the disastrous deficit that had to be met. Local government studying the paper, particularly when some of the has had to take its share of that. The noble Lord details, which my noble friend said would be published knows that if a Labour Government had come into later, are available. power, they too would have had to make very substantial reductions. Local government would have been left Baroness Hanham: My Lords, my noble friend was facing very similar problems and decisions to reflect a much respected Secretary of State. I still remember those reductions. the reasons why business rates were centralised. There 1137 Local Government Finance[LORDS] Local Government Finance 1138

[BARONESS HANHAM] Secondly, I ask her to look favourably at the is no intention of allowing local government to set the amendment which the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, business rate; businesses will in effect see no change. will move on Wednesday that would allow tax increment The business rate itself will be set nationally, as it is; financing to go ahead much more immediately in the discounts, the valuations and the rates that are London, thereby providing a good pilot for this new paid will be the same, so in effect they will be unaffected. approach in the UK to financing and encouraging However, the area in which we hope and expect to see economic growth at a time when it is so highly valued. change is in encouraging local authorities to make sure that they are well in tune with their local businesses, Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I know of the noble that they try to see their businesses grow and that Baroness’s interest in this. A consultation is a consultation, enterprise and employment follows from that. If business and if people have ideas about how wide they want the grows, local authorities will be able to benefit from tax increment financing to go they will be able to say that. I hope my noble friend will understand that the so in the consultation. I do not think there is anything business rate will be as he put it—set nationally. in the consultation questions that would prevent that from happening. I am not in a position at the moment Baroness Quin: My Lords, given the responsibility to say what my response will be to the amendment of Governments to promote balanced economic growth tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine. across the country, will the Government give a commitment that the north-south divide, and indeed the gap between the less well-off and better-off areas, Lord Shipley: My Lords, while welcoming the Minister’s will not be allowed to widen as a results of these announcement, it is important not to misinterpret measures? Could I tempt the Minister to disagree with what is being proposed. While this is being billed as the Secretary of State in another place, who is reported being about the repatriation of business rates from as saying that at the moment there is no motivation for 2013, that is strictly speaking not the case because councils to support local firms or to create new jobs? firms will see no difference in the way in which they Gateshead, the council that I have had the closest pay tax, or in the way in which the tax is set, as a result involvement with in recent years, has been a splendid of these changes. In this sense, therefore, this is not public entrepreneur in working with private industry about repatriation. However, for all the reasons that to do precisely that. There is therefore a great motivation my noble friend Lord Jenkin identified, it is very simply to promote the economic well-being of the area important that the repatriation of business rates is that local councils represent. seen to be fair by the firms and businesses that are paying these rates. For this to be maintained at a Baroness Hanham: My Lords, with reference to the national level is, at least for the foreseeable future, the noble Baroness’s last question, of course there are right thing to do. local authorities that have been working assiduously What matters in this proposal is that it encourages to promote economic growth all over the country. growth and enterprise. For this reason, it is important Authorities both north and south have worked very that the deal that has been announced is seen to be fair hard. On the other hand, they are not really benefiting and does not simply redistribute from poorer areas to from that because they are getting nothing back from richer areas. Setting an insurance scheme against shocks the business rate. The spending totals remain the enables poorer areas to do more for themselves and to same; the control totals stay the same. If they can generate income that will make them richer. In that encourage more enterprise, or more firms into their sense, a virtuous circle can be created. areas, they will get some of that growth back above the The consultation is very welcome. I have been a tariffs. That will be helpful because they will be able to firm advocate of the repatriation of business rates reinvest that and to promote the economy better. now for many years, so I welcome the direction that There is an advantage, but I would certainly not the Government are setting. underestimate the amount of work that local authorities Finally, I have one question about tax increment have already done. I have seen quite a lot of it during financing. There is no date in the Minister’s Statement my year as a Minister, so I am grateful for it. for when tax increment financing will come into play. I Within the spending review, the control totals will assume that it will be in 2013, but it is very important remain the same, although, as I have explained, between that, as part of the whole package of repatriation of the tariffs and the top-ups there will be a switch of business rates from this date, tax increment financing resources from those that have more business rate to is part of it. those that have less. I do not think anyone will be any worse or better off as a result for the time being. Baroness Hanham: My Lords, the answer to the Baroness Kramer: My Lords, the Minister will not noble Lord’s final question is that the Government are be surprised that as well as welcoming the announcement committed to introducing tax increment financing as of this Bill in general I am particularly delighted that soon as possible and will move as quickly as possible tax increment financing is included in the Statement. I to deliver it. It is being introduced through the local have two things to ask her. First, could she ensure government finance Bill alongside the local retention that, during the consultation, there will be the widest of business rates. Once again, I thank the noble Lord possible definition of tax increment financing rather for his support for this. than the sometimes very narrow definition that gets On the repatriation of tax revenue for business touted around, since the purpose of this is to ensure rates, while businesses will not see an immediate change economic growth and maximum advantage for developing to the way they pay the tax, they will see a greater business in local communities and regeneration? interest from local authorities in the rates. They are 1139 Local Government Finance[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1140 important anyway, but I expect and hope that they will zones and entrenching a green recovery. We also want be even more important because there are lots of to create a more educated workforce that is the most incentives for business not only in the Localism Bill flexible in Europe by providing 50,000 additional but in the consultation that has been announced today. apprenticeships, an additional 80,000 work experience Yes, this is absolutely all about encouraging growth placements and expanding the university technical and enterprise, and the expectation and the ability to colleges from 12 to at least 24 new colleges by 2014. keep extra business rates in areas that need to do more The Bill boosts our international competitiveness to encourage business will do exactly what the noble by reducing corporation tax by a further 1 per cent Lord, Lord Shipley, has said: they will help the poorer this year and to 25 per cent next year, towards a rate of areas perhaps to try to generate a little more business 23 per cent by 2013—the lowest rate in the G7 and the activity in the areas they represent. 5th lowest in the G20. It encourages growth by doubling entrepreneurs’ relief to £10 million, increasing R&D Supply and Appropriation (Main tax credits for SMEs to 200 per cent and cutting the Estimates) Bill small profits rate to 20 per cent. The Bill also ensures Second Reading and Remaining Stages fairness for all by increasing personal allowances by £1,000. Together with the increase to £8,105 announced 7.17 pm at the Budget, this will remove 1.1 million people from income tax altogether. The Bill also introduces a Bill read a second time. Committee negatived. Standing supplementary charge on profits from oil and gas Order 46 having been dispensed with, the Bill was read a exploration in the North Sea, which allowed us to cut third time and passed. fuel duty by a penny on Budget day, and introduces a bank levy to discourage risky behaviour by banks, the Finance (No. 3) Bill proceeds of which will fund the £250 million investment in the Firstbuy scheme for new homes. Second Reading and Remaining Stages I turn now to the Economic Affairs Committee’s 7.18 pm report into the 2011 Finance Bill. First, I thank the committee for its comments in recognising the substantive Moved By Lord Sassoon changes that we have made to the way that tax policy That the Bill be read a second time. is developed, communicated and legislated. The committee considered the Government’s new approach to tax Lord De Mauley: My Lords, 21 speakers have signed up policy-making, which sets out the principles that the for the debate on the Second Reading of the Finance tax system will be more predictable, more stable and (No. 3) Bill and the report on the Finance Bill 2011. If simpler to understand. Back-Bench contributions to the Bill are kept to seven Last autumn, we published the majority of the minutes, the House should be able to rise this evening Finance Bill legislation to provide the opportunity to at around the target rising time of 10 pm. develop and refine our proposals. We received over 200 responses to the consultation and many of the 7.19 pm clauses were changed as a result. This is just the first The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord year of this new approach, as the Committee noted. Sassoon): My Lords, as noble Lords are aware, this Many interested parties have expressed their pleasure Government have taken difficult decisions in our two with an approach that puts emphasis on consultation Budgets to tackle an unenviable inheritance—the largest and this process has worked extremely well, as in the peacetime deficit on record and an economy struggling cases of corporate tax reform and pensions tax relief to recover from the financial crisis. We have taken the changes. Indeed, these specific examples were noted by necessary decisions to eliminate our structural current members of the committee. Of course, we will continue deficit over the coming four years and stimulate a to learn lessons and make improvements for the future private sector recovery. One is the vital precondition and, in doing so, HMRC and the Treasury will take of the other, and our approach has been endorsed by into account the recommendations of the committee. the IMF, the OECD, the European Commission, credit- We have also taken steps to address the web of tax rating agencies and businesses across the UK. This reliefs and exemptions that complicate our tax system. Government have set the agenda on using the tax The Office of Tax Simplification, set up last summer, system to encourage growth. has already provided its first series of recommendations The Plan for Growth, published in March, set out a and this Bill takes the first steps towards simplification range of supply-side reforms to improve the UK business by removing seven tax reliefs from the system. We will environment. At the heart of that plan is an ambition be bringing forward further abolitions next year after to create the most competitive tax system in the G20 a period of consultation. The Government are committed through our corporate tax reductions, reform of controlled to greater consultation on tax policy changes. However, foreign company rules and simplification of the tax it will not always be appropriate or proportionate to system. We want to make the UK the best place in consult at all five stages for each tax policy change, as Europe to start, finance and grow a business by reducing set out in the tax consultation framework. The the regulatory burden on business and ensuring that Government will always need to retain some flexibility credit flows to businesses. We want to encourage on tax policy. Generally speaking, the Government investment and export as a route to a more balanced cannot and will not consult on rate changes or where economy by investing £200 billion over the next five consultation would otherwise present a risk to the years in UK infrastructure, setting up 21 new enterprise Exchequer. 1141 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1142

[LORD SASSOON] of their work. It is vital that both departments consider Your Lordships’ committee, as well as witnesses how they engage with taxpayers and how their partnership and other interested parties, has taken particular interest can be strengthened to achieve better engagement. in the disguised remuneration legislation. I remind There is a senior governance group in place between noble Lords that this legislation tackles the practice the departments to oversee and monitor allocation of whereby well-paid individuals disguise their remuneration resources to policy work in the partnership. This new as loans which are never repaid, resulting in a loss to governance group is also looking at how best to raise the Exchequer. This is a significant measure, raising the level and effective use of skills and experience over £700 million a year, and was the first substantial across the partnership, another area that was of particular piece of anti-avoidance legislation introduced under interest to the committee. We fully recognise the the new approach to tax policy- making. There are importance of incentivising and retaining the best valuable lessons to learn from the experience. talents in the tax policy field. The establishment of a The committee has asked HMRC to look at alternatives new tax academy in HMRC will improve the focus on to the disguised remuneration legislation. HMRC has raising skills standards. That academy will engage already carried out a review of alternative approaches with stakeholders to identify shortcomings and put in as part of the policy-making process, which concluded place measures to address them. It will use and build that the approach taken is the most effective in the on the existing range of tax training available to long run. HMRC will, however, continue to review the improve skills across the board. effectiveness of this legislation as is normal procedure This Bill sets out changes to improve our in maintaining tax policy. It should also be noted that competitiveness, encourage investment and support HMRC’s new anti-avoidance strategy, which was published our businesses through the recovery. Of course, we alongside the Budget, sets out how the department have always said that recovery would be choppy, but will prioritise and allocate resource to make the right the last year has given us cause for cautious optimism. decisions about how to respond to avoidance risk. Output is growing and half a million new private In its report, the committee has also highlighted tax sector jobs have been created, the second-highest rate evasion. HMRC recognises the significant risk to the of net job creation in the entire G7. However, there is Exchequer of tax lost through evasion and already has no room for complacency, and our plans necessarily in place a business strategy allowing it to develop a incorporate a degree of flexibility. On this point, I thorough understanding of its customers. This approach would like to confirm that this flexibility refers to the helps HMRC ensure that compliance efforts and automatic stabilisers that allow government spending interventions are focused where they will have the to move up and down with the economic cycle. I greatest effect. The Government have underlined their apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, for the commitment to tackling tax avoidance and evasion with confusion that arose on this point in response to his a £900 million reinvestment in HMRC over the spending Question on 6 July. I can confirm that he correctly review period. This will transform HMRC compliance quoted my right honourable friend the Chancellor of activities and bring in additional revenues of £7 billion the Exchequer on this issue. a year by 2014-15, on top of the £13 billion additional To conclude, this Bill builds on the progress that the revenues to which HMRC was already committed. Government have made to date to help families, help business and support economic growth. I look forward The third area that the committee considered was to hearing this evening’s speeches, particularly the the approach to corporate tax reform. As I have maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Magan of already said, a competitive tax system is at the very Castletown, and I commend this Bill to the House. core of our plan for growth. Last year we published our corporate tax road map, setting out our plans for reform over the next five years and the principles 7.31 pm underlying them. This gives businesses the certainty Lord Myners: My Lords, the Minister has treated they need and the confidence to invest. This Bill takes us to a rich helping of palilalian piffle when it comes the first steps on this road by introducing changes to to the performance of the economy. His speech would foreign branches and controlled foreign companies be a comedy if the underlying story were not a tragedy. rules. Corporate tax reforms will reduce the cost of At least we know that the Minister is not guilty of new investment and incentivise activity across the being involved in disguised remuneration because, as economy. I welcome the committee’s comments on the we well know, he is not being remunerated at all. corporate tax road map, which noted: Let us remind ourselves of the economic facts. “It should promote the stability, consistency and certainty In the period 1997 to 2007—for 10 years—the UK which many of our witnesses saw as so important”. recorded the highest GDP per capita growth in the G7 The committee also expressed some concern around countries. This was achieved against a background of the timing of reviews of tax reforms. I assure the low inflation and the period described by the governor House that we recognise the value of monitoring and of the Bank of England as the NICE decade—non- evaluating tax policy. HMRC and the Treasury are inflationary consistent expansion. Public sector net currently looking at ways in which evaluation can be debt had fallen from 42.5 per cent of GDP in 1997 to better embedded in the policy-making cycle. 36.5 per cent in 2007—the second lowest level in the Regarding policy development within the Treasury G7. The Conservative Opposition had committed to and HMRC, we have noted the committee’s comments match Labour’s expenditure plans. about the policy partnership. I can tell the House that In 2007 the world was hit by a global financial the Treasury and HMRC continue to look at all aspects crisis. The Labour party has expressed its regret that 1143 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1144 financial sector regulation was not as effective as it income is falling. Indeed, it is falling to the lowest should have been and that that was a contributory factor levels in relative terms for 20 years. Real incomes fell to the crisis. Alistair Darling took the right decisions last year for the first time since 1981. This is the as a consequence of the crisis and he implemented background of economic achievement for which the them successfully. The financial system was stabilised Minister invites us to express our appreciation. Consumer under the Chancellor’s direction. Appropriate stimulus confidence has slumped—I will revert to the critical action was taken. Unemployment was lower than would issue of confidence in a moment. Business investment otherwise have been the case, as were business failures and confidence have also collapsed. Insolvencies are and repossessions. The Chancellor introduced a strong increasing. Banks are not lending. The Merlin agreement, framework for fiscal stabilisation going forward. I pay which the Minister trumpeted, is a worthless piece of great tribute to Alistair Darling whom I think history paper, as the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, described will judge to be one of the great chancellors, given the it. Merlin has no teeth. It does not even require the extraordinarily difficult global circumstances with which individual banks that have signed it to commit to he had to deal. Last spring, after a very tough time for individual lending figures. It is an aggregate figure—not the economy we were turning the corner. The economy an individual bank-by-bank figure. The ICB, so worthily was growing. Over the second and third quarters of established by this Government, has nothing to say 2010, growth was 1.8 per cent—ahead of the USA and about promoting greater competition in an oligopolistic ahead of the EU average. Inflation remained low and domestic banking market. unemployment was steadily coming down. Why is confidence so important? Notwithstanding What has happened since the election? The economy the Government’s remonstrations about a debt-fuelled has stopped growing. The Minister refers to growth economy, the OBR assumes that household debt will but the facts are that since the Government came to increase further. At the moment, household debt is power the UK’s growth record is 21st out of the 165 per cent of GDP. The OBR assumes that it will 24 countries in the EU. The OBR has had to revise rise to 175 per cent by 2015. That compares with down its growth forecast on four separate occasions 114 per cent 10 years ago. But that will not happen, since it was established. We are the only major economy and Ministers must know that that is the case. in the world that is not growing. On 26 July the Office Households will not borrow more unless they are for National Statistics will produce its initial estimates compelled by dire financial circumstances to do so for second quarter GDP. I believe that these may well involuntarily. We must remember that interest rates show that we are back into a recession. Inflation have yet to normalise. It is not surprising that the continues to be running at well over double the targeted Bank of England warns of the consequences of rising level. The Minister last week completely failed to interest rates and points to a very delicate situation for answer a question from my noble friend Lord Eatwell some banks if their customers are obliged to pay the to explain why, if inflation was due to global circumstances, sort of interest rates that would be more consistent the UK was experiencing such a poor inflation record with a rate of inflation of 4.2 per cent. Nor will the compared with other EU nations and the United corporate sector financial surplus reduce, which is States. The OBR is now forecasting that the combined another key assumption of the Government and the effect of very low growth—if any growth at all—and OBR because why would companies run down their inflation running well above target is that borrowing corporate financial surplus when the economy is will be £46 billion above the level that the OBR experiencing such an abundance of unused capacity expected at the time of last autumn’s spending review. and declining demand? I am confident that that figure will increase further Expansionary fiscal contraction assumes that a tight when we see the second and third quarter GDP figures fiscal policy can lead to looser monetary policy and for 2011. stimulate private investment and consumption. It is a This is the context in which this House looks at the form of the Ricardian equivalence in which almost no Finance Bill, described by the Chancellor of the Exchequer one believes. There can be no crowding out of private in his Budget speech as the “march of the makers”. sector demand by the Government if demand is too The march of the myth makers, I would suggest. It is low. The Government’s Budget strategy is simply not the myth around expansionary fiscal contraction, taking working. The economy is clearly not springing to life demand out of the economy when the economy is on a wave of confidence on the back of the picture already suffering from underused capacity, particularly painted by the Government. Monetary policy is already in the labour market. In the first quarter of 2011, UK too loose and will have to be tightened fairly soon. GDP was much the same as it had been in the third The economy is stagnating but the Government propose quarter of 2010, but worse, it was still 4 per cent below a reduction in real government consumption, at constant the level before the global financial crisis and 11 per market prices, of 10 per cent between now and 2015. cent below the level that it would have been, had we This is a dangerous nonsense. extrapolated economic performance in 2007 through It was for many a forgettable Budget, an exercise in and beyond the financial crisis. sleight of hand, but it was not forgettable if you are on The Government’s response to that horrendous a low income because you are going to be hit decline in achieved economic output is to announce a proportionately more than those on higher incomes. It succession of policy initiatives that will have the effect was not a forgettable Budget if you are young and of taking demand out of the economy. The Budget unemployed—a cohort of the economy and society had nothing to offer. Growth has been hit and we are that is increasing dramatically. It was not a forgettable now teetering on the verge of recession. We already Budget if you are female, experiencing the highest are in recession in terms of domestic demand. Household rates of female unemployment for 15 years. It was not 1145 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1146

[LORD MYNERS] to his reputation and the need to admit that Alistair a forgettable Budget if you are trying to buy a house Darling was correct in his fiscal judgment. The price or even keep your existing one. It was not a forgettable the nation pays for the Chancellor’s and the Minister’s Budget if you are eking out an income from your pride is that we are pushed back towards recession. savings when they are being reduced in real value by loose monetary policy. It was not a forgettable Budget Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords— if you are a small company seeking support from the banks. It was not a forgettable Budget if you care Lord Myners: I had almost finished, but I am very about the environment, because everything that was happy to give way. said about a green government policy was reversed in this Budget. It was not a forgettable Budget if you are Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Before the noble Lord a charity because of the reduced incentives to which sits down, there have been many glowing references to you are now entitled as a result of tax adjustments. Alistair Darling and how wonderful he was as Chancellor, The consequence of this is that we are facing the but no references at all to Gordon Brown. Was that a weakest economic recovery from a recession since the coincidence? 1920s—the weakest economic recovery from a recession for 90 years. We are the only major economy in the Lord Myners: We are time limited in this debate. In world not experiencing economic growth. Regrettably, closing, I say how much I look forward to hearing the the Chancellor of the Exchequer has talked himself maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Magan of into a corner with irresponsible speeches about national Castletown, who will no doubt enrich the House with bankruptcy and misleading references to “maxing out”—a his knowledge of banking both in the United Kingdom horrible phrase which I am sure an Old Pauline should and in Ireland, where the noble Lord had a number of not use—the nation’s credit card. The Chancellor has important banking roles. I also look forward to the talked us into this recession. As John Maynard Keynes contribution from the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor wrote in the Times in May 1933, in words that are as of Pulham Market. I congratulate his committee on apposite now as they were then: its extremely good work. Finally, I express my appreciation “Unfortunately the more pessimistic the chancellor’s policy, to the Minister for his apology to my noble friend the more likely it is that pessimistic anticipations will be realised”. Lord Barnett. What should be done? First, Labour should acknowledge that its management of the economy 7.46 pm during the middle part of the first decade of this Lord Newby: My Lords, it is always a great pleasure millennium was not as good as it should have been. In to follow the noble Lord, Lord Myners, particularly particular, we ran a deficit while the economy was when he has just misled the House with regard to my already running at full capacity and we failed to surname. I am afraid that the noble Baroness, Lady acknowledge the narrowing of the fiscal base. I have Noakes, will not speak to me for a month. It is also a said this before and I will continue to say it because I great pleasure to hear him speak again so eloquently believe it is important that we admit, with the benefit from the Dispatch Box. of hindsight, that mistakes were made. The economy These are clearly extremely nervous times for the is now in need of acute help. There should be a economy. Growth is very low at best, business confidence temporary cut in VAT. We should bring forward capital is poor and inflation is relatively high and squeezing investment. Now is the right time, when there is excess real incomes, so it is not surprising that we hear many capacity, to spend on government capital projects, voices, including that of the noble Lord, Lord Myners, including, in particular, social housing. We should calling on the Government in effect to throw caution take action to get credit flowing. I notice that the to the winds, abandon their deficit reduction plan and noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, has joined the board of stimulate the economy by some combination of tax Royal Bank of Scotland. When I sat where the Minister cuts and greater public expenditure. It is very tempting, is sitting, I was regularly chastised by the noble Lord, but with a couple of relatively minor exceptions to Lord Noakes, who I see in his place, and the noble which I shall come later, I think that such a policy Baroness, Lady Noakes. I am sorry, I meant the noble would be misguided. There are a number of reasons Lord, Lord Newby. I made this mistake when I was a why growth is disappointing, but the Government’s Minister and I have now done it again. I apologise to fiscal policy changes are at most only one of many both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. The reasons. Imported inflation via commodity and food noble Lord, Lord Newby, and the noble Baroness, prices clearly is one, so is a nervousness by the banks Lady Noakes, both used to chide me about my inability and businesses to lend and invest, brought about in to get the banks to lend. I ask the Minister the same considerable measure by international events, particularly question: what are you doing, Minister, because bank in Europe. How can the noble Lord, Lord Myners, lending to SMEs is declining? Bank lending for housing even in a time-limited speech of a mere 15 minutes, not and domestic mortgages is at a 10-year low. The mention Europe once? It is as if the Labour Party is Minister shakes his head, but I encourage him to unable to see across the channel at what is happening become the master of his brief, be on top of the facts there; namely, the largest financial and fiscal crisis that and realise that lending to UK SME companies is Europe has seen since the Second World War. Banks continuing to decline. here are concerned about what is happening in Europe, As I said, the Chancellor has left himself with no members of the eurozone or no, because their direct options. There would be no place to which he could liabilities are some £20 billion to bonds issued by the turn in terms of a policy adjustment without damage weaker, and potentially defaulting, eurozone countries, 1147 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1148 and their broader liabilities, via interlinked banks, are investment bank can borrow. In an emergency situation, much greater. Therefore, they are extraordinarily worried accounting rules should not stand in the way to prevent about what is happening there and that is affecting that happening. what they are doing. In the short time available I would like to make two Businesses for which Europe is the single biggest comments on the very impressive report from the export market are also not surprisingly nervous about Select Committee. First, I am extremely concerned what they see across the channel. At the same time, about the ongoing problem between HMRC and HMT consumers who are faced with higher than expected on tax policy. The report says: inflation and very tightly constrained income rises are “There appears to be a severe, and worrying, disconnect seeing their real income falling, so it is not surprising between the perceptions of HMT and HMRC and those of their customers about how well the policy partnership between the two that there is a tendency on all sides for people to sit on departments is working”. their hands and not make that investment, take on We have real cause for concern. I find the arguments that additional staff member or buy that new car or made by the Treasury officials completely unconvincing. television. Finally, the report talks about enhancing the role of In this situation, what should the Government do? the committee in the scrutiny of tax legislation. With In an era when credit-rating agencies appear to hold the new approach to tax legislation, under which you the fate of economies and Governments in their hands, have a draft Finance Bill, there is plenty of scope for it would surely be foolish to throw away the credibility this committee of your Lordships’ House to undertake that the Government currently enjoy by tearing up the a serious piece of work, at that point, so that the deficit reduction plan. It would also be foolish in the committee does not have to do all its valuable work in light of the recent Office for Budget Responsibility such a short period, as it currently does. It could get report, which shows that the longer-term prospects for started a lot earlier on, and I think its role would be our fiscal position, given an aging population, are enhanced, which would benefit the administration of extremely challenging. The idea that if we can only our tax system. deal with the current crisis, we will somehow reach a sunlit upland where funds would flow into the Treasury 7.54 pm and all would be well, is belied by last week’s report. The truth is that we face a long-term challenge in Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market: Iamvery raising the taxes we require to fund the public services tempted to range more widely, as the noble Lord, that people want. Spending more now, as the Government Lord Myners, and my noble friend Lord Newby, have plan to do, would make the task of dealing with that done. However, I think it is my role to introduce and longer-term situation even worse. Indeed, although invite the House to take note of the report of the the noble Lord, Lord Myners, does not seem to Finance Bill Sub-Committee of the Economic Affairs acknowledge this, in the other place the Opposition Committee, of which I am chairman. I think, for once, seem to recognise, at least in part, that they had better this is not a Back-Bench contribution. I am grateful to be careful what they do. They had three opportunities the Minister for already giving some comments on our to vote against the VAT increase, and three times they report; I would like to put on record in Hansard some sat on their hands. Could it be that despite the rhetoric of our main points, and hope that I may tempt some and all appearances to the contrary, Mr Balls knows other answers from him later. the true cost of fiscal recklessness? The report of the Economic Affairs Committee on the Finance Bill 2011 is the eighth report in a series If growth comes in lower than the Government which has now become well established and confirms have predicted, as seems likely, I do hope that, as the the role of this House in the parliamentary scrutiny of Chancellor has indicated, there will not be further Finance Bills. The report contains 32 conclusions and tightening of fiscal policy. A hair-shirt approach, beyond 15 specific recommendations, so I must be selective. I what we already have, would be unnecessary. However, believe that our sub-committee provides a forum for if I am not advocating a plan B, then what do I think taxpayers, and many leading experts outside, to express might be done to promote confidence and growth? I their concerns to Parliament. This includes all the would like to make three specific suggestions to the institutes of chartered accountants, the Hundred Group Minister. of finance directors, the Chartered Institute of Taxation, First, we currently have a national insurance holiday the Association of Taxation Technicians, the CBI, the for staff taken on in new businesses. This should be Institute of Directors, the Engineering Employers extended to all micro-businesses. The number of new Federation, and various small business organisations. businesses being established is much less than the We also had the valuable session with senior officials projections in the Government’s plans, and so it would from the Treasury and HMRC, which enables them to be possible to extend that scheme, and give confidence respond before we draw up our report. I believe this is to small businesses, within the existing planned expenditure becoming an increasingly useful forum—more of that envelope. Secondly, the Government should investigate in a moment. It means we have to work at speed, as my the costs and benefits of reducing VAT on refurbishments, noble friend Lord Newby recognised, because we cannot from the current level to 5 per cent. This is a long-standing begin until the Finance Bill is published, and have to policy on these benches, but now, when we have report before the Report stage in the other place. simultaneously a housing crisis and a crisis in the I would like to thank my fellow members of the construction industry, it requires further investigation. sub-committee for their knowledge and wisdom, and Finally—a King Charles’head of mine—the Government their speedy and intensive work. Some who have not should bring forward the point at which the green been able to be here tonight send their apologies. I am 1149 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1150

[LORD MACGREGOR OF PULHAM MARKET] had in attracting the best talents to tax policy work. also most grateful to our witnesses, professional and We share these concerns. There appears to be a severe official, our specialist advisers, the clerk, and our and worrying disconnect between the perceptions of secretary administrator. HM Treasury and HMRC, and those of their customers, Not least for reasons for reasons of speed, the as to how well the policy partnership between the two sub-committee has to focus, and this year it examined departments is working. three topics: the Government’s new approach to tax Now, HMT and HMRC officials put up a spirited policy-making; anti-avoidance, with special reference defence and I recognise the difficulties that they have. to one of the measures in the Finance Bill—disguised The culture in the Treasury of moving highflyers on remuneration—on which my noble friend has already from one department to another to give them much commented; and the corporation tax reform package. wider experience is very well understood and I am The first topic we chose to look at this year was the afraid that very often some of HMRC’s best tax Government’s new approach to tax policy-making. experts are poached by the private sector. I noticed, The new approach commits the Government to full when I raised this point with members of the Institute and open consultation at each stage in the tax policy of Chartered Accountants who had raised the matter, development process, except in exceptional circumstances. that there was a wry smile on their faces. Nevertheless, It alters the policy-making cycle to allow for such for the new approach to work, it is vital to have tax consultation, by publishing most of the Finance Bill policy teams that are knowledgeable, experienced and in draft form some three months before it is published stable and that they operate effectively across departmental formally. This reflects the recommendations in our boundaries. That is why our report also recommends a earlier reports, for full and effective consultation in comprehensive skills audit and the publication of the developing tax policy, so the sub-committee considered findings of a recent internal review. it particularly important to have an early look at this There are two other points that are worth stressing. new approach, and how it had worked in its first cycle First, although we support the new approach to tax of operation leading to the present Finance Bill. policy, we think it can be improved and strengthened. The track record of consultation with big business is We concluded, as did nearly all of our witnesses, commendable, but there is still a long way to go in that the new approach was a very welcome development. building effective arrangements for consulting smaller Great credit is due to the Government. Inevitably it businesses. As a former Minister for small businesses—or was not a perfect operation, and in one point I will small business Minister, as I was sometimes described—I refer to more specifically, it was far from perfect. recognise the difficulties of communicating with small However, a report concentrates on where there are still businesses. Many of them do not want to belong to issues or where improvements can be made, and in so big organisations. Their organisations are not as well doing I take it as read that the Government have made manned, financed and established as, say, the CBI, but significant and positive steps forward. they are a very important part of the economy and We thought that most of the measures in this much affected by tax legislation. I believe that more Finance Bill had followed the new procedures. They can be done to consult them. I welcome the fact that had been consulted on from the outset, and draft HMT and HMRC now recognise that. legislation had been published in December. As a We also think—here I have in mind a recent debate result, there was little controversy surrounding most on the working practices report in this House when measures. But there were exceptions. By far the most there was much emphasis on post-legislation scrutiny— important was the consultation on the clauses to tackle that there should be more emphasis on reviewing and disguised remuneration, which began far too late. evaluating tax changes after they have been implemented There was no consultation of any kind before the to see how well they have achieved their objectives. increase in the supplementary charge on oil and gas profits was announced in the Budget. I now turn to a point which my noble friend Lord Newby raised, not for the Minister and not even for As a former Treasury Minister and as Chief Secretary our sub-committee. Time and again we were struck by taking Finance Bills through the other place—and the fact that while all our witnesses welcomed the there is another former Chief Secretary about to speak extra opportunities, time and information for scrutinising in the debate—I recognise that there are exceptional tax policy, most also thought that there was scope for circumstances where the Government cannot follow more effective parliamentary scrutiny of tax legislation, their new approach to the letter, as did our committee. in particular drawing on the experience and skills of We do not think either of these cases fit that Bill. Even Members of this House and the time that we can give where open consultation before the Budget was not to this onerous work. Indeed, I have noticed that possible, informal, confidential discussions would have others, like Kitty Ussher, a former Treasury Minister, helped reduce the risk of unintended consequences. recommended, in a recent pamphlet, exactly the same Before I come to specific measures, there was a points and suggested that it was a role that the House general refrain from many of our witnesses, whom I of Lords could perform. One particular suggestion would describe as old hands in the tax system. They made to us was that the remit of our sub-committee were concerned about the quality of some of the should be adapted to allow it to examine tax proposals teams working on tax policy in HM Treasury and that were being consulted on during the autumn, as HMRC, and my noble friend Lord Newby referred to well as inquiring into the draft Finance Bill when this. They complained of frequent changes of personnel, published in December. A more modest suggestion a general lack of tax and business knowledge, especially would amend the remit to allow the sub-committee to in the Treasury, and the difficulties both departments examine the draft Bill only from December onwards. 1151 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1152

Of course, these are not matters for the Economic strategy. According to the HMRC figures, I understand Affairs Committee, but for the whole House to that the tax loss from all forms of evasion is £22 billion consider. We refer to them in our report because the compared with £7.5 billion for avoidance. need for greater parliamentary scrutiny of tax legislation, Finally, on CT reform, the last two Budgets and the particularly in advance, formed a consistent theme in CT road map, published last November, contained the evidence that we received. proposals for reform of the corporation tax regime. For our second topic, we looked at tackling avoidance We welcome the CT road map which should help to of tax, both generally and in a specific Finance Bill promote the stability, consistency and certainty which provision which seeks to address avoidance by many of our witnesses saw as so important. It is an so-called disguised remuneration. We fully agree with excellent example of a strategy outline which we think the Government’s strategic commitment to tackle would strengthen the new approach if adopted more avoidance early, which is particularly important when widely. Indeed, the reforms should make the UK’s avoidance has the potential to mushroom and lead to corporate tax regime more competitive, as we concluded. a large tax loss. I was somewhat astonished when I saw However, some of our witnesses were concerned at the proposals in the Budget to discover that the loss of the overall balance of the package and that it might revenue from disguised remuneration was calculated disadvantage some sectors, particularly smaller businesses at £750 million a year. Many of our witnesses thought and manufacturing. We consider that post-implementation that it was probably a good deal higher than that reviews of outcomes are particularly important so because disguised remuneration had become a very that early action could be taken if the reform package well marketed process which many were taking up. proves to disadvantage some businesses. Clearly, that had been allowed to grow. We believe, in We thought that there was much to commend in the the light of that, that HMRC should review why action Finance Bill and the processes that led to it. Our was not taken earlier and learn lessons for the future. report has concentrated on recommendations that are Even with subsequent amendments, including many intended to be helpful in taking forward this new during the Commons stages of the Bill, there remained advance and we see the desire for greater parliamentary a deep and widespread unhappiness with this legislation. scrutiny as an important issue for this House. I commend I should have mentioned that when the disguised our report to the House. remuneration draft proposals were produced in December, I think there were something like 25 clauses but by the 8.07 pm time it went through the process of consultation, the Lord Barnett: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, number grew to nearly 60 and then there were many Lord Sassoon, for his personal apology to me for subsequent amendments in the other place. Our firm saying that I was wrong when I quoted the Chancellor view was that had there been consultation at an earlier as saying that flexibility was built into his plan. I am stage, this complexity could have been addressed and bound to tell the noble Lord, for whom I have a lot of the legislation would have been better targeted. The respect, that it was wrong not to make a personal criticisms that we received of disguised remuneration statement at an early time, apologising to the House were very striking indeed, including, for example, some for misleading the House, quite clearly, in his reply to who argued that this was the worst legislation that me. I know what happened. He took personal advice they had ever seen. So clearly, the new approach to tax from a leading source—I think I know the source—who policy-making fell down in this case. All our witnesses must have told him that this was a major political agreed that this avoidance had to be tackled, but their difference of opinion so he did not need to give a concerns were about the way in which the legislation personal apology. I can only advise the noble Lord to tackle it had been framed. It was not a good that in future he should not take any advice from that advertisement for improvement through consultation. particular noble friend. Our report recommends that HMRC should carry I readily admit that there was a political difference out an in-depth examination of the alternative approaches between us because clearly a major political difference that the legislation could have taken which should was at the heart of my question and there needed to be enable lessons to be learnt and similar pitfalls to be some flexibility of a kind that was not enumerated by avoided in future. I recognise that the new Government the noble Lord. Indeed, when I asked him whether the and the Treasury Ministers had been in place only for flexibility related to the Treasury’s special reserve, he a short time, with many other crucial issues absorbing said, “Definitely not”. On the other hand, could he their attention. Therefore, I understand why this may tell us, as he did not tell me at the time, how much of have happened on this occasion. I am clear that in the Treasury special reserve has already been used for future it is going to be very important that a different the MoD, for unexpected expenditure in Libya, and approach is taken to some of this consultation. for other departmental budgets that have been One other point is that the disclosure rules have overstepped? Could he tell us what is left in that made a major difference. I am sure that the new reserve to allow any flexibility to decide what should disclosure rules led to much of the legislation in dealing happen to the Chancellor’s plan? There cannot be any with disguised remuneration and they should enable doubt that it was misleading. To say to the House, HMRC now to frame more precise legislation on “What I was telling them was wrong”, is misleading other avoidance disclosures in the future. the House. It was a major matter, and he refused to The Minister mentioned evasion and the tax loss make a personal statement, and he was wrong in that. through evasion far exceeds that from avoidance. We But I leave that alone. recommend that the Government should publish an My question had at its centre this political anti-evasion strategy to complement their anti-avoidance disagreement, a crucial disagreement between us. I do 1153 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1154

[LORD BARNETT] Answering my question is not important. What is not for a moment regret having gone into that political important is that the economy should truly move difference, because political difference does not mean forward, and that we should be a little more optimistic you cannot mislead the House. What it does mean is about the likely outcome for the economy in the that the Government are ignoring this central problem coming year, let alone in the coming years. If this of whether there should be some flexibility that means that the Chancellor has in mind in his plan to could amount to a Plan B. I have always said that no slow down the cuts, I am very glad to hear it. If he chancellor could ever announce that he is introducing does not want to call it a Plan B, I do not mind that a Plan B, because it immediately kills Plan A. However, either. He can call it anything he likes, as long as he there may be other means of slowing down the cuts, has it in mind to do it, because that is the one way that which would help to introduce a sort of secret Plan B. he can truly make us all a little more optimistic. But the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, denied all of that, and said that he was not misleading the House. Indeed, 8.16 pm he nearly went as far as maligning that distinguished Business Editor of the BBC, Robert Peston, the son of Lord Bilimoria: My Lords, the philosopher Kierkegaard my even more distinguished noble friend Lord Peston, said: by suggesting that it might have been in his mind or in “Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived that of the interviewer that there were some special forwards”. flexibility built into the plan. Right now the Opposition blame our current economic While I have had to read some difficult briefs in my difficulties on the global economic crisis which started time, listening to the noble Lord this evening and his with the subprime crisis five years ago, and the degree of optimism about everything in the Finance current Government blame the previous Government’s Bill and the economic situation, I cannot believe that mismanagement of the economy, resulting in the huge he could have believed what was in his brief. He should deficit and the high levels of borrowing which have, in have deleted it. How can there be any degree of optimism turn, led the Government to embark on a programme about the economy and economic prospects at the of cuts across the board, and a tax policy to try and moment? I would not propose to quote many of the address the deficit as well. Unfortunately, the current numerous comments from truly independent forecasters Government are also going to have to blame the woes about what is likely to happen to the economy in the on the European sovereign debt crisis and the eurozone next few months, let alone years. However, I would not crisis, neither of which are of this country’s making. mind just quoting one, before the noble Lord encounters There is no question that public expenditure under what my dear old friend Denis Healey always said: the the previous Government reached levels that were far advice that, “If you’re in a hole, stop digging”. The too high—50 per cent of our GDP when it should noble Lord is digging deeper and deeper. If he is not have been 40 per cent. Reducing this to 40 per cent careful, he will have to apologise not only to me—which would sort out our budget deficit in one swoop: but it I do not mind—but also to Robert Peston and many cannot be done overnight. The imbalance between the others for pretending that one can have any degree of public and private sectors has finally come to a head. optimism at the present time. The Government are finally starting to address this, The flexibility that should exist is not. I will refer but again it will take time. that one particular statement from an authority that As to monetary levers, the Bank of England is may not be as independent as some, but it is certainly forced to keep interest rates at 0.5 per cent in spite of independent of the Labour Party. I refer to Deloitte, ballooning inflation because of the fragile state of the the well-known, major accountancy firm, which audit economy. Of course, the final lever that the Government many large companies. It stated that finance directors have is the Finance Bill and taxation. Before I go into in Britain’s largest companies say that business optimism detail, I will highlight the 10 tenets of a better tax has fallen at a faster rate since the collapse of Lehman system, as laid out by the Institute of Chartered Brothers in 2008, and that one in three thinks there is a Accountants in England and Wales, of which I am chance of a double-dip recession. I do not believe proud to be a fellow. They are: statutory, certain, there is a chance of a double-dip recession; it seems simple, easy to collect and to calculate, properly targeted, unlikely, but certainly there are no grounds for optimism constant, subject to proper consultation, regularly about what is happening in the economy. It is pretty reviewed, fair and reasonable, and competitive. Does clear that we can look forward, as my noble friend the Finance Bill tick all these boxes? Lord Myners said, to many periods yet to come of low I was proud to serve on the Finance Bill Sub- levels of economic growth, if not an actual downturn. Committee of the Select Committee on Economic I do not doubt that there would have been some Affairs, and I thank our chairman, the noble Lord, flexibility, but to compare it with the automatic Lord MacGregor, his staff and advisers and the rest of stabilisers I find incredible. Surely the noble Lord, the committee for the excellent work that they performed. who is a very clever fellow, must have checked the There was a clear consensus among our witnesses that, Oxford English Dictionary and found that “stabilise” is if implemented consistently, the Government’s new somewhat different from “flexibility”, to put it mildly. approach to tax policy-making would represent a major I will not read the summary of the long points made step forward on the road to better tax legislation for about the two words in that dictionary that I received this country. I do not wish to blow our own trumpet, from the Library, but to say that there is no difference but most witnesses proposed that better use should be and that he was therefore answering my question is made of the expertise and experience of the House of ludicrous. Lords in matters of tax policy and legislation. 1155 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1156

We have far too few Joint Committees of our two In conclusion, we know that high taxes stifle not Houses. We all know about the new Joint Committee only consumer spending but businesses and growth. that has been set up to deal with reform of the House What the economy desperately needs is confidence of Lords. However, given that as things stand the and growth, and the Finance Bill should do its best to House of Lords does not have the power to vote on encourage growth. In the other place, we were told Finance Bills, would it not be wonderful if we had a that between 2008 and 2009, nominal GDP fell by Finance Bill Joint Committee of the two Houses, on 1.8 per cent, which cost £20.6 billion, and tax receipts which, sitting around the table, the expertise of this dropped by 3.7 per cent, costing £19.9 billion. That House could be brought to bear side by side with shows that growth more than anything else—more those who are going to legislate on the matter? There than the cuts—will bring down our deficit and our should be more Joint Committees of our two Houses. borrowings. However, with high taxes across the board, This would lead to both Houses working more closely we are stifling growth. As long as we do that, with the together and to better mutual understanding—an best will in the world, consumption will continue to understanding that at the moment is greatly lacking in falter, inward investment will continue to be deterred the other place. This has been openly admitted by and the economy will continue to bump along the many Members who came from the other side of the bottom. building and who concede how little they knew and I welcome much of the work that the Government understood of the workings of this House. Will the have done in reforming taxation policy: but going Government consider this suggestion? back to Kierkegaard’s words, the future has to be A serious matter that was spoken about in our lived, and the future should be about a simple, competitive sub-committee was the worrying disconnect between tax policy that generates growth for our economy. the workings of Her Majesty’s Treasury and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and the lack of Lord Higgins: My Lords, we are really having two specialisation in either. The sub-committee also looked separate but related debates: on the one hand, on the at tax evasion and tax avoidance. More and more, the report of the Finance Bill sub-committee on the Budget lines between evasion and avoidance are being blurred. of 2011—I congratulate my noble friend Lord MacGregor As the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, said, on the and his committee on what they have produced; and, basis of HMRC’s figure, the Exchequer loses £22 billion on the other hand, we are having more generalised from evasion compared with £7.5 billion from avoidance. debate about the state of the economy. We have therefore recommended that the Government I begin by commenting on what is said in the report should publish an anti-evasion strategy as well as an of my noble friend Lord MacGregor. It refers to a new anti-avoidance strategy. approach to tax policy-making involving the tax Lowering the corporation tax rate was seen as a consultation framework. The idea that this is new is very good move, as headline rates matter, especially in rather surprising. It is a very long time since I was attracting global inward investment: but, sadly, the involved in producing a draft set of clauses on VAT impact of these reductions is lessened because capital legislation. The more we can have consultation in allowances are being changed, meaning that the effective advance of the tax proposals, the better. The other rate of corporation tax for many businesses will not be aspect of this side of things is the question of how reduced. That is particularly the case for small businesses the proposals, when they arrive, are considered. I was and manufacturers. tempted to go back into the archives and look at the first report from the Select Committee on We still have the 50p rate of tax that the Finance Procedure (Finance) for the Session of 1982 to Bill did not address. This desperately needs to be 1983, which it so happened I chaired. It had a removed, especially if we want to attract inward investment distinguished membership, including Mr Enoch Powell. and the best talent from around the world. Many of The proposals that it brought forward are still relevant our taxes are far too high. For example, and declaring and particularly in the context of my noble friend’s my interest as the founder of Cobra Beer and chairman Bill. Perhaps his committee might like to look at this of the Cobra Beer Partnership, a joint venture with report, which I think is very valuable and still relevant the global brewer Molson Coors, we in Britain have to our situation. one of the highest rates of beer duty in Europe. Points We said that there should be a division in the have been made about how the Treasury says it is Finance Bill and that there should be a taxes management tackling problem drinking by increasing the tax on Bill, which would be introduced at the beginning of higher-strength beers and trying to stimulate the market the Session. This would involve the mass of technical—I for lower-strength beers. However, this is toying at the am inclined to say—junk, which appears in this edges as it represents a very small portion of the beer massive document that we have in front of us this market. evening. The actual Finance Bill would be as far as Meanwhile, the Government’s ban on low-cost possible only concerned with tax rates and the selling, covering VAT and duty only, means that, management side of them. There is a strong case for given tax anomalies, £20 could allow retailers to sell up to this division and, as we went to suggest, for a separate 40 cans of beer at 4 per cent ABV—70 units—10 bottles Bill if a new tax were being introduced. But as far as of wine at 14 per cent ABV—98 units—seven bottles scrutiny is concerned, the present arrangement that we of fortified wine and up to 103 cans of cider, making a have with Finance Bills so far as scrutiny is concerned total of up to 340 units. What will the Government do is not satisfactory. Perhaps my noble friend could tell to assess alcohol taxation in the light of maximizing us how many of the clauses in the Finance Bill were revenue and minimizing harm? debated in detail in the Commons; it would be interesting 1157 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1158

[LORD HIGGINS] rates that are failing to stimulate the economy. I fear to know. With this legislation, the Commons does not that there is a lack of overall comprehension of policy have the long stop that your Lordships have of being because of the way that things have been divided able to look at it, which they have for other legislation. between the OBR, the Bank of England and the I turn now to the other aspect of the matter. I Treasury and because of the Chancellor not taking an am becoming increasingly heretical over the idea that overall view of the picture. the case for absolute minimum rates of interest has been made. We ought to consider the considerable 8.31 pm disadvantages of a hyper-low interest situation. My former constituents in Worthing living on fixed incomes, Lord McFall of Alcluith: My Lords, I was privileged having been prudent all their lives and having saved, to be a member of the Finance Bill sub-committee are being devastated by the low interest rates which under the excellent chairmanship of the noble Lord, they can now get. It is a major disincentive to saving, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market. It is good to which is very important in the present context, not have the opportunity this evening to debate a number least in relation to the extent to which there are bank of those issues and put them in to a wider context. deposits which might enable the banks to lend more. I want to look first of all at corporation tax. One aspect examined by the committee was the roadmap On the other side of the argument, this does mean for corporation tax. There has been a focus on whether that we have a lower exchange rate than we would this would make the UK economy more or less otherwise have. This may be important as far economic competitive. The context for this is that the Chancellor growth is concerned but people are also being misled in his Budget in March announced that he would cut into believing that this hyper-low interest rate policy corporation tax by an additional 1 per cent over and will go on indefinitely. A large number of people are above the cuts previously announced. This was a taking out mortgages and borrowing on the expectation flagship measure, but to fund it, this year’s Finance that interest rates will not go up further. This policy is Bill will bring in a reduction in allowances available to being sustained only because the Bank of England has firms which make significant investments. effectively given up any prospect of using interest rates to control inflation. That cannot go on indefinitely. The Government’s The Plan for Growth states: There is bound to be a significant increase in interest “Growth was concentrated in a few sectors of the economy rates, which could have devastating consequences. I and in a few regions of the country”. am very concerned about that. I welcome that sentiment. A specific aim of the plan is, “to encourage investment and exports as a route to a more More particularly—this will not be news to the balanced economy”. usual suspects in this debate—I am concerned about This change to corporation tax would appear to run the way in which the Bank of England is preoccupied contrary to that aim. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies with the price of money, that is to say interest rates, said earlier this year: and not the quantity of money. Fascinatingly, having thought at the weekend of what I might say today, I “The largest beneficiaries from the package of measures will be high-profit, low-investment firms”, suddenly found on my desk this morning a report by the Institute of Directors on the big picture and on which would include, for example, financial services. whether we are we making a big mistake. It stresses the Meanwhile the IFS says that cuts to capital allowance importance of the money supply. It also—and this is will, interesting politically—says: “have the largest impact on those firms with capital-intensive operations”, “There is a real risk of economic weakness as a result of the money supply”— which include manufacturers. Major investors who are considering the UK as a site for investment are not so it means the lack of money supply— easily swayed by a cut in the headline rate when “is mistakenly attributed to the Spending Review and tight fiscal allowances are also being cut. This change could drive policy”. investment away from the UK and help the economy I recommend this report to your Lordships. It even to become more focused on the financial sector by goes on to refer to the monetary equation MV=PT raising the effective tax rate for manufacturers. which the noble Lord and I had exchanges about when There are also issues regarding the carbon-floor he was a Minister. That shows its credentials are good. price system for energy-intensive industries. It has In any event, it points out about the level of increase been suggested that this has been implemented in such in the money supply that: a way that, according to a report by Thomson Reuters “Broad money growth is now the lowest it has been on a earlier this year, it will place additional costs on businesses sustained basis since modern statistics were first compiled in their amounting to £9.3 billion. Given that these businesses present form in 1963”. are major employers and, in many cases, major exporters, Since 1963, we have not had such a low level of it goes against the Government’s proposals in The monetary growth. Whether you are a Keynesian, a Plan for Growth. There has to be further scrutiny of Friedmanite or whatever, it cannot be the case that if the impact of these changes. It is important that the money supply is falling over a sustained period, we whole context of taxation on businesses is taken into find ourselves getting economic growth. We must consider account, not just the headline rate of corporate tax. very strongly indeed the case for further increases in Oil taxation has been mentioned. This was nothing the money supply—for quantitative easing, which was other than a hasty, politically motivated initiative with rightly introduced at that time by the noble Lord no consultation, and we have seen this before: we have opposite—against the background of such low interest seen it with Labour Governments. What happens is 1159 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1160 that when these proposals are implemented they do on a single change. For example, the rise in VAT at the have long-term adverse consequences for these industries. beginning of this year is reported to cost the average As the Chartered Institute of Taxation has said, family with two children £450 a year. That is more “the last minute and precipitate change in Oil tax rates for an than 10 times the benefit that is gained by low-income industry that is particularly dependent on long-term planning families from the rise in the personal allowance. That seems wrong”, rise in VAT also added nearly 3p to the cost of a litre and it goes against the Government’s proposals for of fuel—or nearly three times the amount of the stable tax planning. The Government should take that reduction in fuel duty that the Government bring in issue into consideration. The sub-committee did note with this Bill. There is a need here to ensure that we that the Government need to retain the flexibility to take the full context of tax changes into account, and I deal with immediate issues, but informal consultation hope the Government will realise that. should still have been possible and witnesses to the Looking to the future, there are inauspicious signals. sub-committee said that this would have enabled better Next winter the Chancellor cannot blame the snow. policy-making, so I hope the Government take that The cuts are coming, and the pressure on wages will issue on board. not abate until 2015—and that is the Governor of the An issue has been mentioned regarding HMRC, Bank of England talking when he appeared before which the sub-committee discussed, particularly the the Treasury Committee in another place. I suggest to skills and resources available and whether it was able the Government that they need to be cautious, and I to carry out the Government’s new approach to tax leave them with this important message, given these legislation. Perhaps more importantly, the committee cuts. Economic prosperity is built on a platform of also heard concerns over whether HMRC was fully social stability. If the Government forget that rule they able to implement the legislation once it was made, are going to get themselves into more problems. Let us given its staffing problems. By some estimates, tax hope they heed it. evasion costs up to £1 out of every £8 that should be collected in taxation, and therefore we need a good 8.39 pm staff. This is particularly important given the sheer complexity of legislation being proposed in this Bill—and Lord Magan of Castletown: My Lords, it is an particularly the proposals on anti-avoidance, which honour to rise to speak in your Lordships’ House for the sub-committee scrutinised at some length. the first time. My journey here has, I suspect, been a slightly less conventional one than most. I left school, I welcomed the £900 million the Government have aged 17, with only one rather poor A-level, and then, pledged to invest in HMRC to tackle tax evasion. The at the age of 18, I started work as a clerk in the City of principle behind this is right: investing more in HMRC London. Since that time I have had a career of nearly staff will save the taxpayer money by helping to close 50 years in the financial services industry. Therefore, the tax gap. But I am concerned it is insufficient, I believe that I have a contribution to make in this particularly at a time when cuts have been made to evening’s debate on the Finance Bill. At the outset, I HMRC’s budget; when HMRC is still attempting to should like to express my gratitude to my two noble absorb the loss of over 20,000 staff since 2004; and friends, the noble Lords, Lord Northbrook and Lord when tax legislation is becoming more complex. In the Howard of Rising, who acted as my supporters when I evidence sessions of the Finance Bill sub-committee was introduced into this House. I should like in addition one tax specialist said of HMRC that: to thank all those who work here in your Lordships’ “a lot of very skilled people have left, that morale is very low, House for their highly professional and courteous that people are given work that they are not being trained properly to do”. assistance. There is both a short-term and a long-term problem I was born in New Delhi in November 1945 when here for the Government. I have raised this issue the sun was beginning to set on the British Raj. My before in another place when I was Chairman of the father, Brigadier WMT Magan, was born in 1908 in Treasury Committee. We said then, even six years after County Westmeath in the south of Ireland, and sprang the merger of the Inland Revenue and HM Customs from an ancient Irish landed family. He was an officer and Excise took place, that the merger, in Hodson’s Horse, a famous cavalry regiment in the Indian Army. Rather unusually for a cavalry officer, he “had a knock-on effect on performance”, ended up as a director of MI5 and was regarded as and we were, one of the leading figures in post-war intelligence. My “deeply concerned about employee engagement at HMRC”. father died last year at the distinguished old age of There still exists today the danger that the 101 and a half. My mother, who is now aged nearly 95, Government may focus too much on creating complex was born in Rawalpindi. Her father, Sir Kenneth Grant anti-avoidance legislation, rather than addressing the Mitchell, was a distinguished servant of the Indian more fundamental issue of ensuring HMRC is fully Government. Her uncle was a distinguished Governor resourced to implement that. of Kenya and her great-uncle was a famous admiral Lastly, I turn to something that the committee did who founded the Royal Australian Navy. not look at: the impact on ordinary people. The flagship While the empire is thus very much in my blood, policy for ordinary people in this Finance Bill is the Ireland, where we have a family home, continues to be significant increase in the tax-free personal allowance of absorbing interest. The noble Lord, Lord Myners, for income tax and national insurance—a welcome has already referred to this. The Ireland of today is move, as it will benefit lower income households. completely transformed from the Ireland I knew as a However, this is also an area where we need to see the boy. The large subvention payments Ireland received changes made in a wider context, rather than focusing from the original EEC, extremely well strategically 1161 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1162

[LORD MAGAN OF CASTLETOWN] There are some 40 million people of working age in invested under the aegis of the Irish Development this country. Some 2.5 million people who are looking Agency, coupled with significant taxation advantages, for employment are categorised as unemployed, and have resulted in the complete modernisation of the there are a further 3.4 million people who are receiving economy. The European headquarters for so many out-of-work benefit payments; these people are primarily cutting-edge multinationals now located there have long-term unemployed and have no intention—or, established Ireland’s very strong export base. This through incapacity, are unable—to seek work. A total, radical modernisation, coupled with the transformed therefore, of some 5.9 million people will claim some relationships between the Governments in Dublin and sort of support from the state; in other words, 15 per Westminster, is wonderful progress. The recent courageous cent of the working age population. Yet, as we are and hugely successful visit to Ireland by Her Majesty constantly being made aware, several million new jobs the Queen indeed marks a watershed moment in the in this country have been created in recent years, the relationships between our countries. vast majority of which, however, have been taken by However, following what was clearly an uncontrolled immigrant workers. nationwide overindulgence in real estate activity, and Looking further, you have to search the Budget Red its consequent devastation of large parts of the Irish Book in considerable detail before you eventually find, banking sector, we can now see what the current in the small print on page 95, the figures for the public constraints are for Ireland in its membership of the sector debt. Only then can one see its remorseless and euro. Look at this straitjacket: Ireland cannot manage alarming historic and continuing increase. We have to her own currency; she cannot set her own interest be brutally frank: the nation’s long-term financial rates; she cannot through fiscal stimulus give a much condition needs radical overhaul. needed boost to her domestic economy; she cannot Twenty years ago, our national debt was £150 billion; through credit stimulus, particularly necessary after today, it is closer to £900 billion. Even if the Budget is the deflationary effects of the credit crunch, increase brought into near-balance by 2015-16 in line with the money in circulation; and she is largely beholden to a objectives of the current Administration, the national single creditor, the European Central Bank. Ireland is debt will by then have risen to more than £1,350 billion, very significantly driven back into the most uninviting getting on for a tenfold increase in our national debt prospect of all—that of slashing, and then slashing over a 20-year period. Even allowing for inflation and again, the national budget in an environment where for the considerable growth in the economy, this remains growth has very significantly deteriorated. a staggering increase in the nation’s indebtedness. Twenty Our decision in this country not to join the euro years ago our indebtedness was around 25 per cent of was a most judicious one. We may have been overdosing national income; this now looks set to increase to on Keynesianism but we have at least remained unfettered some 70 per cent of national income. Even by this in the management of our own financial affairs—and more conservative measure, the level of our nation’s while we are riding through a great storm, which could indebtedness will have nearly tripled. get worse, we are still at the helm of our own ship. However, we cannot hope to re-achieve real national We also have to recognise that the state has additional greatness until we put the nation’s house in order. That massive contingent financial obligations, particularly means, in particular, putting the nation’s long-term in connection with unfunded public sector pensions finances in order. and PFI obligations. It is estimated that these additional contingent liabilities will amount to a further Let me now make certain comments on the Finance £1,100 billion. As Shakespeare, the immortal bard, Bill which I hope—as I know is customary on these reminds us, occasions—to lift above tendentious hyperbole and rhetoric. It is clearly necessary to fully recognise also “borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry”. that the current Administration have been in office for I will tell your Lordships something else that dulls the just over one year. When we look at this year’s Budget, edge of husbandry: the liberal spending of other people’s we see that the combined spend on welfare, health and money. education is just under £450 billion—getting on for Let us be absolutely clear: our total national debt, two-thirds of the total budget of £710 billion. One including contingent liabilities, is heading towards might also note that the payment of debt interest will £2,500 billion, a number so large that the figures are be £50 billion, which will comfortably exceed the almost impossible to comprehend. What is more defence budget of £40 billion. Incidentally, this year’s comprehensible is that this total level of national debt defence budget for the United States is set at the will be roughly the equivalent of some £100,000 of equivalent of some £500 billion, which is more than additional indebtedness for every household in this 12 times our commitment, and yet its population is country. only five times the size of ours. The Office for Budget Responsibility must be only Further, we can also see that UK government receipts too well aware of this developing financial horror for this year are budgeted at only £589 billion, compared story. There is a suggestion that the unacceptable to a total spend of £710 billion. Therefore, the deficit widening of what in economics-speak is referred to as for this current year will still be a whopping £121 billion, the “fiscal gap” could be brought back into line by, even though it is substantially reduced from £146 billion say, an increase of 13p in the basic rate of income tax, and £156 billion in the two previous years. from 20p to 33p, or by an increase of 13 percentage The spend on welfare of £232 billion is the largest points on VAT;—that is, a VAT rate of 33 per cent. single element of the Budget, and of this, getting on This is the scale of the financial challenge that we as a for £100 billion will be disbursed on dependency payments. nation are facing, but surely such grotesque rises in 1163 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1164 either direct or indirect taxation would be completely We are one of the most talented and creative peoples unacceptable to the British people. I suggest that there of the world. Over the centuries we have absorbed is an alternative, and much more palatable, remedy to millions of additional diverse, highly-talented, enterprising get the country back into financial good health. But it people, many of whom have sought refuge here. We have is time to wake up, and wake up fast. to face up to reality. We, too, in this country could, if What is clearly beyond any doubt is that the world we really had the collective mindset to do so, completely has moved on with tremendous panache in what is transform our economy and the prosperity of our now the post-communist age. We have witnessed on a people in a relatively short timescale. China has achieved global basis the collapse of faith in communism—the a stunning economic revolution in 20 years. We in this dismantling of the Berlin Wall just 20 years ago was country have to ask whether we can move from being a one clear manifestation of this. Yes, the Long March is major debtor nation with relatively low rates of growth well and truly over. We have as a consequence seen and whose relative competitiveness continues to extraordinary vigour and growth from so many emerging deteriorate—in reality, this has been our condition for countries. There has truly been a Great Leap Forward. far too much of the post-war period—or whether we Let us look specifically at China. Sixty years ago, can transform our economy, sustain very high rates of China was in a chaotic condition. It was only some growth, create opportunity and prosperity for all and 30 years ago that it started to reform and modernise its become, once again, a major creditor nation. economy, embracing the markets and encouraging This is the big issue. This is where we should be private enterprise, albeit within a totalitarian framework. having the big debate, and we in this House should be It is really only within the past 20 years that we have at the forefront of stimulating and leading this big debate. witnessed the truly dynamic surge in growth from China, as well as, of course, more recently, from India 8.53 pm and Brazil. China’s economy is now 90 times larger Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, I shall not than it was 30 years ago. Growth has lifted 300 million add to the justified praise of the report prepared by people out of poverty. Only five years ago, China’s the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, and his committee, economy was half the size of Japan’s; but because of nor shall I contribute to the macroeconomic other its continuing phenomenal growth since then, China debate which is taking place. First, it is with sincerity has recently passed Japan and has been propelled to that I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Magan, on the world’s second largest economy, with $5.5 trillion his felicitous maiden speech. He clearly comes from a GDP, second only to the USA’s $14 trillion GDP. If good stable, as he has said, from Ireland and from present trends continue, China will pass the USA as India. He has had over 50 years’ experience in the the world’s largest economy by 2030. financial services industry and it clearly shows. I hope There are some real lessons here for us. The keys to that that experience will be seen again in this House. It our recovery are very clear to see. We must as a nation was a well-delivered, felicitous speech and I am sure unequivocally take every conceivable initiative to unleash that he will make a number of excellent contributions the forces of enterprise. We must remember that wealth in that vein. is not finite; there is infinite opportunity to create I shall not speak on the macroeconomic level but I additional wealth. We must continue with real vigour shall deal with one corner of the canvas and ask the the fundamental overhaul of our bureaucratic and Government a number of questions on a matter which regulatory constraints on enterprise. We must undertake was raised in the course of the Bill’s progress through a fundamental overhaul of our taxation regime, which the other place. The Government responded with some clearly in so many ways at present stifles enterprise positive noises but gave no firm conclusions on the and growth. We must be clearly aware, particularly at timetable. I recall that in the other place much of the HM Treasury, that lower rates of tax do not inevitably Finance Bill was consigned to Committee, where often translate into lower revenue flows for the Exchequer—in it appeared to be accountants talking to accountants. fact, the empirical evidence is frequently quite to the However, beneath those dry as dust phrases, often contrary. We must understand that government of there were real values. One such is the recognition of itself does not create wealth. The Government cannot marriage in the tax system. Many commitments have do it all. The Government’s job is to distribute fairly been made by the Government—by the Prime Minister the wealth they receive and to manage the nation’s himself over a number of years in opposition and finances prudently. indeed in government—but there has been no actual We must appreciate that while we are physically a result as yet. I hope that when the Minister replies—he small island, this of itself should not be a bar to is already sharpening his pencil—he will give a firm achieving and sustaining high rates of growth and and clear commitment on how the Government will prosperity. Singapore is even smaller, and look what implement the many promises that have been made. I has been achieved there. Look at our regions that are need not take him down the road in great detail, but I crying out for development and growth. We must not can quote seriatim a number of commitments made forget that we as a nation have a long and hugely by the Prime Minister over the years. He said, for example, successful history as traders in global markets. Over “we will give a tax break for marriage and end the couple and above that, many of the world’s major financial penalty”. and other markets are made here in London. There is He said on another occasion: tremendous opportunity from our own existing strengths “A Conservative Government will support marriage, through and skills sets to give a huge boost to the country’s the tax and benefit system and remove the ’couple penalty’ from trade in goods and services, as well as to commerce the benefits system which will lift 300 000 children in two parent and industry. families out of poverty”. 1165 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1166

[LORD ANDERSON OF SWANSEA] I noted in the Centre for Social Justice report card Similar sentiments were expressed by Mr David Willetts published in May that the Government were given two and a number of other Members. Before the 2010 general out of 10 for their efforts to tackle family breakdown. election, there was great support for the measure. It Clearly, on the current projections, that will get even was even made official Conservative Party policy and worse. So I am bound to ask, in conclusion, when in was put into the 2010 Conservative general election the circumstances the Government are planning to manifesto. A number of statements have been made introduce the necessary budget resolution. Even if the by the Prime Minister since the general election, but Government, understandably perhaps, are reluctant action there has been none. to give a firm date for implementation, can the Minister I think that it is generally accepted that marriage is in replying give your Lordships’ House at the very of fundamental importance to a stable society; but, least the assurance that preparatory work is already equally, marriage rates are at an all-time low in this under way in the Treasury and HMRC? How long is country. Family breakdown is a major social and this work likely to take? One hopes it is under way. financial problem. One knows from surgery experience Surely, if there are no positive replies to these in the other place that most single parents do a great questions, in spite of the repeated assurances and job in very difficult circumstances, but stability—or grave commitments made by government spokesmen, lack of it—does matter. On average, children brought both in opposition and in government, one is likely to up in married families do better than those in single-parent conclude that they were empty words—and, as is often families by every significant measure—of educational said by wags about US politics, electoral platforms are achievement, health and propensity to commit crime. platforms to run on and not to stand on. Certainly the Even after discounting certain socioeconomic factors Government ran on this particular platform; it remains such as age, income, education and race, the fact to be seen whether, over the next year or two, they will remains that the poorest 20 per cent of married couples in fact stand on it. are more stable than all but the richest 20 per cent of cohabiting couples. It is therefore surely in the interests 9.02 pm of society that, by the tax system and other mechanisms, Lord Browne of Belmont: My Lords, following on any Government should do their best to encourage the from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, I, too, would institution of marriage and should in no way discourage like to express my concern that the Government are marriage. It is then hardly surprising that, apart from taking so long to honour their very important Britain, only 18 per cent of people living in OECD commitment to recognise marriage in the tax system. countries are subject to a tax jurisdiction that does not It was not that long ago that the Conservative Party, recognise marriage in the taxation system; and the when in opposition, talked regularly about the problem great majority of those thus excluded live in Turkey of broken Britain, and they were absolutely right to do and Mexico. so. Of course, we do not hear that phrase on their lips Furthermore, the latest international tax comparisons very much now that they are in office. The truth is that show that the tax burden on one-earner married couples no Government could sort out broken Britain in just with children in the UK is nearly 40 per cent greater over a year, and the problems of social breakdown than the OECD average. What is worse is that, if all remain as real today as ever. the tax and benefit changes in the Finance (No. 3) Bill One of the principal sources of that social breakdown and those proposed for 2012-13 are introduced, the is family breakdown, which has such devastating burden is projected to increase to over 50 per cent of implications for child development. As a Minister said the OECD average. Therefore the indices are moving in a speech in February: against the pledges made by the Government and are hardly consistent with the Government’s manifesto “The Centre for Social Justice has found that those not growing up in a two-parent family are 75 per cent more likely to commitment. By contrast, the tax burden on single fail at school, 70 per cent more likely to become addicted to drugs persons on the same wage is actually falling and is now and 50 per cent more likely to have an alcohol problem. The below the OECD average. Clearly the UK is mightily Joseph Rowntree Foundation has found that children from separated out of step with the OECD majority. families have a higher probability of living in poor housing and developing behavioural problems”.—[Official Report, 10/2/11; I fully recognise that there are a number of mechanisms col. 389.] for encouraging marriage by tax incentives, including They also suffer from a host of other damaging outcomes some relating to property. However, a transferable whose effects spill over to the rest of society. allowance is the main device debated, as in the UK the unused tax allowances cannot be currently transferred What promotes couple stability? In engaging with from a non-earning spouse to an earning spouse. this question, we must look at many factors, one of Thus, depending on how it was introduced, it would the most important of which, unsurprisingly, is the be the whole allowance or part of it; whether it was nature of the relationship between partners. In this limited to couples with children under a certain age or regard, the research findings are very striking. If children limited to tax at the basic rate, it is clearly important are born to cohabiting parents, they have a nearly one that this be considered seriously by the Government. in two chance of finding themselves in a one-parent Therefore, with one moving in the wrong direction family by the time they reach their fifth birthday, from the OECD average, surely it means that the issue whereas those born to married parents have only a one is both important and urgent. Unless action is taken, in 12 chance of finding themselves in this situation. the easy slogans of the Government about making the I know that some will respond to this by saying that UK the most family-friendly country in Europe will those who marry also tend to be wealthier, and that appear ridiculous. this is the real reason for their greater stability. Given 1167 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1168 that material need generates added pressure on made last year. Moreover, the very real costs relationships, it would be very strange if wealth were associated with not recognising marriage are of great not a relevant consideration. The notion that it is the importance. The £550 million cost of the very only relevant consideration, however, is rather odd. modest partially transferable allowance proposed at Mindful of this, it is no surprise to me that research the general election represents just 1.3 per cent of the demonstrates that the poorest 20 per cent who make a direct costs of family breakdown, as calculated by public “till death do us part” commitment in front of the Relationships Foundation, and just 2.3 per cent their families and friends are more stable than all but of the costs of family breakdown, as calculated by the 20 per cent richest cohabiting couples. the Centre for Social Justice. Moreover, it would The truth is that marriage sealed by a public “till cost just 4.4 per cent of what we are in the midst of death do us part” pledge, rather than a “let’s move paying to raise individual allowances to £10,000—the in together and see how it goes” commitment, is, overall cost is estimated at approximately £12.5 billion. unsurprisingly, an independent promoter of stability. This is a policy that greatly benefits single people, In this context it is clear that, at the very least, the and certainly does not benefit one-earner married Government should do everything they can to develop families. public policy that does not make it more difficult for The Government were absolutely right to make couples to marry in this country than in comparable provision for the commitment to recognise marriage in countries. This is where our failure to recognise marriage the tax system in the coalition agreement. We owe in the tax system is so important. both the next generation, which would benefit from an In introducing the subject of marriage and tax, let increased chance of a two-parent home experience, me be clear from the outset that I do not believe that and our young people who aspire to marry the opportunity people fall in love, and then decide they want to be to live in a country that does not make it more difficult together for fiscal reasons. When they fall in love and than in comparable developed countries. In May, the decide that they want to be together, however, they Government were given a score of just two out of face a choice: will they marry or will they cohabit? 10 in the Centre for Social Justice’s report card for This is a very important decision, for the reasons we their efforts to combat family breakdown—an have considered, and it will inevitably be informed by extraordinarily poor result given the great emphasis all relevant considerations, including financial ones. the Conservatives placed on fixing the broken society Britain used to recognise marriage in its tax system, before the election. I very much hope that the Minister but it has not done so since 1999-2000—unless those will be able to assure us that things will be very concerned were born before 1935, or one or both are different in the coming year, and that recognising blind. As CARE’s latest international tax comparison— marriage in the tax system will be a high priority. The Taxation of Families 2009/10—reveals, apart from Britain, just 18 per cent of citizens of OECD states 9.11 pm live in countries that do not recognise marriage in Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, I congratulate their tax systems. The majority of these people live in my noble friend’s committee on its excellent report. I just two states: Turkey and Mexico. We are completely am also extremely glad to notice the development of a out of line with the developed countries with which we consultation system on detailed tax provisions. When are usually compared—for example, France, Germany, I was at the Bar, I spent quite a lot of my time trying to Japan, and the USA— in not recognising marriage. understand the tax provisions that were then extant in This inevitably makes it more difficult financially for order to try to advise people as to how they might couples in this country to choose to marry than in conduct their affairs. It was not easy then but, looking other developed countries. Indeed, if we look at the at the tax legislation that has come along in the quite tax burden that they bear, it is a staggering 39 per cent long time since, the problems are no easier now than greater than the OECD average. What really is when I was looking at them. I hope that this system concerning, however, is the fact that the latest projections will indeed make it easier for advisers reliably to tell suggest that the tax burden on such families will be people what their tax liabilities will be if they pursue a more than 50 per cent greater than the OECD average particular course of action. by 2012-13—unless, of course, there is an offsetting My principal point is not on what is in the Finance measure such as recognition of marriage in the tax system. Bill but, rather, on what I would have liked to see in it One of the statistics that fascinates me is that, in the in relation to marriage being recognised. The noble midst of all this, 90 per cent of young people say that Lords who preceded me have shown that this Government they aspire to marry; and yet our marriage rates tell a agreed in their coalition, as I understand it, to recognise very different story. Given that we make choosing to marriage in the tax system. I am in the happy position marry fiscally more difficult than in other OECD of having been born before 1935, so I may have the countries on average, the disconnection between the benefit of the provision to which the noble Lord who aspiration to marry and marriage is of no great surprise. immediately preceded me spoke. I am therefore not Happily, the coalition agreement commitment provides talking about anything affecting me personally. However, us with the opportunity to change this and to ensure I believe that this is a very important and fundamental that it is no more difficult to marry in this country part of dealing with the situation in our society. Those than in other developed countries such as France, of your Lordships who were in the House then will Germany and America. remember that, towards the end of the previous I am of course aware that recognising marriage Conservative Government, I spent quite a lot of time in the tax system has cost implications, but these trying to put through a Bill to ameliorate the situation were considered at the time the commitment was when marriages broke up. I am glad to say that the Bill 1169 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1170

[LORD MACKAY OF CLASHFERN] That said, we do not have a road map for such was passed and is still on the statute book but, so far, it crises. Normally all economic theory is about the has not been implemented. I hope that may some day other kind of crisis. There is a paradoxical conclusion be rectified. that we might follow. If the task is to deleverage, we What is apparent is that if nothing is done soon on ought to hurry that up. That leads to the idea that we this matter, the projections are that the tax burden on should not have low interest rates at all; we should one-earner married couples with two children on average have proper high interest rates so that households that wages will rise so that it is more than 50 per cent above falsely think they can afford their mortgages should be the OECD average by 2012-13. If your Lordships look told that they have negative equity and cannot afford at that as against the burden in the OECD on a single them. That is a cruel thing to say, but right now we are person, it will increase to an incredible 80 per cent postponing deleveraging rather than assisting it. That while the comparable burden in the OECD is just is a choice that the Government can make. 52 per cent. It is obvious that this is going to get We have, of course, decided to deleverage public considerably worse. The primary reason for that is that debt at a rate that is now known, and the task of when tax goes up on the individual, unless the marriage eliminating the deficit within five years has been adopted. is recognised it becomes worse from the point of view The problem of deleveraging is not just a problem of of comparing a married couple with two children and the recession. We are observing from the crises of both a single person with no dependents. pensions and elderly care that we, not just in the UK It would perhaps take some development of the but in western economies, are suffering from a serious Inland Revenue computer system to recognise marriage undersaving problem. We have been undersaving for easily in the tax system. I believe that it is important to far too long and we will completely have to change our make the necessary preparations. Apparently they are habits of thinking, living, taxes, and so on. The task of able to do it for older people without too much difficulty, the tax system should be as far as possible to tax as far as I can judge. I hope that they may be able to do consumption and not income, to tax pollution but not it for the younger people as well, but I believe that that work. I do not know at what stage we will get into may require some preparation. those kinds of discussion. I welcome the proposal to merge income tax and national insurance contributions. The commitment given by the coalition could wait I have never understood national insurance contributions until towards the end of the coalition period which, as because they are a tax on earned income, while unearned we know, in the first instance will be in May, in the income gets taxed less, which is a very peculiar thing five-year Parliament that has been provided for. That that successive Governments have tolerated. five-year period is the timetable within which this ought to be done if it is to be implemented. From my If we are to face up to the challenge of saving point of view, the system is so damaging to the institution seriously, we will have to adopt something like what of marriage that the sooner it is done, the better. Lord Kaldor talked about in his expenditure tax proposal. Therefore, rather than leave it to the very end of their We may have to move to an expenditure tax proposal commitment, it would be extremely wise and beneficial as that would reward savings much more than we have for the Government to do it soon. I hope that my done so far. We have been led to think that expenditure noble friend can give us some encouragement that the leads to income. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Government intend to do just that. Skidelsky, is not in his place as we have had long arguments about this. If you think that expenditure leads to income and income then leads to output that 9.16 pm leads to inward gain, we have a certain trajectory. Our Lord Desai: My Lords, I welcome the debate. I have problem is that we cannot go through the politics of nothing particular to add to what other noble Lords income growth if there is consumption expenditure. have said about the interesting report of the noble The gap is in investment. The Government face the Lord, Lord MacGregor, which I welcome. I especially challenge that despite the quantitative easing that they welcome the transparency and the consultation that have been practising for a couple of years, the money the Government have introduced in deciding their tax is there but no one is investing. That is very much the legislation. reason why the money supply is not expanding, as the I want to concentrate on why the recovery is so slow noble Lord, Lord Higgins, said. People are not borrowing and faltering. That is an important question that we the money that is available. Therefore, there is a lack of all ought to take up. The general proposition in many investment by the private sector despite the fact that quarters is that somehow the Government have gone interest rates are low and people should be encouraged wrong and they need a plan B—or C or D, I do not to invest. This is a difficult thing to do. I do not believe know. I think that we face a very different kind of that it is necessarily within the Government’s control crisis from those we are normally used to. Recessions to encourage investment if they can no longer pick normally happen because of a lack of effective demand, winners or horses that will start a race. However, the and we know the standard games and policies that we Government ought to concentrate on how they can have to follow. We got into this crisis not because of a give a certain boost to new investment proposals, lack of effective demand but because of overspending perhaps in green technology.Unless they get an investment and overborrowing. When you have to carry an economy programme going, they will find that even if people through a crisis in which the major consideration is decide to save they will be frustrated. deleveraging by both households and Governments, Whichever way the Government go—I welcome you need a very different kind of strategy from the one some of the taxation proposals—they should be aware you normally encounter in a standard recession. that in the short term and in the long run the crisis 1171 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1172 arises from undersaving. We have to try to correct our I will now focus on a narrow but crucial casualty of overborrowing and then provide for a proper level of the Government’s restructuring of the economy, and saving to finance the problems created by longer life one that the Chancellor failed to address properly in expectancy and people needing elderly care. If these his Budget speech in March. In fact, it relates to an two challenges are properly thought through and met, issue highlighted by the Chancellor in last year’s Budget we may yet have a prosperous future. of a commitment that the Government made then and have since failed to honour. I hope the Minister will be 9.23 pm able to offer an explanation as to why the Government Lord Watson of Invergowrie: My Lords, when have let down low-paid workers in the public sector introducing the Budget, the Chancellor told us that it across the United Kingdom, to whom they made was about reforming the nation’s economy so that we promises before the general election and in the Budget have enduring growth and jobs for the future and of June 2010. At that time the Chancellor of the about doing what the Government could to help families Exchequer announced to Parliament that: with the cost of living and the high price of oil. Four “the Government are asking the public sector to accept a two-year months later and after 14 months of the coalition pay freeze, but we will protect the lowest paid … They will each receive a flat pay rise worth £250”.—[Official Report, Commons, Government, that is not how it feels for many people. 22/6/10; col. 171.] As the cuts begin to bite, the popular perception is that it is hurting but it is not working. Inflation He said that the earnings level at which people remains high, the recent small drop in unemployment would qualify would be £21,000 a year, and he estimated is not expected to be repeated when the next figures that 1.7 million people would benefit from that pay appear, and the economy is clearly not “in recovery”, increase. In the Budget Statement this year, the Chancellor as the Chancellor claimed. had a different message for low-paid public sector workers, when he said: That is also the view of the independent National Institute of Economic and Social Research, which has “I can confirm today that in the coming year all workers in the as its president the noble Lord, Lord Burns. That armed forces, the prison service and the NHS, and teachers and civil servants, earning £21,000 a year or less will receive a pay organisation dismissed the Chancellor’s claim that uplift of £250”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/3/11; col. 963.] cutting the deficit more slowly would cause a collapse in market confidence as “fundamentally flawed”, adding, That is considerably less than the promise delivered nine months earlier, and it means that only about “The real hit to credibility comes from sticking to unsustainable policies. If Mr Osborne really wants a budget for growth he one-third of those originally earmarked will be guaranteed should amend his plans”. to receive the £250 payment. What the Chancellor It is basic economics that deficit reduction will slow meant in effect was that only those working under growth. I echo the national institute’s calls for a major ministerial control, and those whose pay and conditions house-building programme, and measures to boost are subject to pay review bodies, would be guaranteed youth employment, to restore the education maintenance to receive the payment. Between one Budget and the allowance that keeps poor students in school, and to next, goalposts have been shifted with a vengeance. reverse the cutting of student visas, because universities Research commissioned by Frank Field MP from the are a dynamic export industry. House of Commons Library shows that the Chancellor, in his 2010 Budget Statement, could not have been None the less, I concede that the Budget contained referring only to workers under ministerial control measures that are to be welcomed. Next year the and those with pay review bodies. The Chancellor’s personal tax allowance will be increased to more than figure of 1.7 million workers was precisely the total £8,000. Temporary tax relief for small businesses is to number of public sector workers earning less than be extended to October next year. The Chancellor £21,000 in 2009, which at the time of the Chancellor’s deferred for a year the proposed rise in fuel duty, Statement were the most recent available figures. until April 2012, and cancelled the fuel duty escalator for the remainder of Parliament. He increased the The Commons Library further calculated that the supplementary charge levied at North Sea oil and gas most reliable current estimate for the number of public companies to 32 per cent, generating a possible £2 billion, sector workers under ministerial control or covered by although he has since handed back around a quarter pay review bodies is 715,000. That equates to just of that in exploration allowances. one-third of the 1.7 million figure, and when the most Public spending measures that included an extra recent official statistic for 2010—that is, 2.2 million—is 40,000 apprenticeships for young people out of work, introduced, it leaves up to 1.5 million public sector and 100,000 new work experience placements, are also workers denied the promised pay rise, and the victims to be welcomed, although I fear they will be less worth of a deception. while than the genuine jobs of the future jobs fund Two weeks ago in another place, Frank Field that the coalition has axed, which paid the minimum introduced an amendment to the Finance (No. 3) Bill wage. There are also doubts as to whether employers with the aim of securing justice for these low-paid will offer the extra apprenticeships and work placements public sector workers. Mr Field’s amendment, which unless they are forced to do so. There is to be a he did not press to a vote, sought to reduce the tax consultation on long-term plans to merge income tax liability of all public sector workers whose earned and national insurance, and I echo the comments of income does not exceed £21,000 in this tax year, by £250. my noble friend Lord Desai that this is long overdue. That would have had the effect of ensuring that This is planned with a view to simplifying the tax around 1.5 million public sector workers who are system, although I am disappointed that the review currently being denied that promised pay rise of will not go as far as a full merger with income tax. £250 would have received it, as the Government had 1173 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1174

[LORD WATSON OF INVERGOWRIE] Is not the Chancellor at least willing to remove led them to believe. The total cost to the Treasury has reams of onerous employment laws, bearing in mind been costed at around £500 million. To government that expensive regulations to meet environmental targets Ministers, or indeed to your Lordships, £250 does not lurk in the pipeline? The ligature of red tape stays tight mean a great deal—indeed, it is less than our daily around our businesses and their growth is further allowance—but for many people, £250 means a great deal. hampered by high tax rates. The Institute of Directors In that debate on the Bill in another place, has just gauged that taking all taxes into account, the the Government’s reasoning for abandoning their overall tax burden for a medium-sized firm is no less commitment was based on the unconvincing grounds than 43 per cent. that this protection will now be extended only to those The Chancellor has asked HMRC to examine likely workforces directly under ministerial control or whose tax revenues from different rates of personal taxation. pay and conditions are decided by pay review bodies. I had half hoped that Mr Osborne’s apparent belief in Not only was this not made clear at the time of the the enterprise culture would have informed his opinions Statement, the figures the Chancellor quoted in his without this digression. The noble Lord, Lord Myners, 2010 Budget speech made it clear that this was not quote John Maynard Keynes in 1933. I am sure that what he intended. he knows even better than I do that this was the year in David Gauke, the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, which Keynes advised the then Government to cut said in another place that civil servants, nurses, prison taxes. Now, even the IMF has urged our Government officers and the Armed Forces had already received to slice tax rates. So there is no deregulation, no lower the £250 increase and were to receive it again next taxes, except corporation tax, and to compound these year, but whether other public sector work forces, defects the Government also harm our economic recovery mainly in local government, received that payment and competitiveness and fuels inflation at the same was not a matter for the Minister. In most cases they time with so-called green measures. Last year, the will not receive that because, as Mr Gauke told the Government raised £40 billion from green taxes with other place on 4 July: householders paying an extra £200 in hidden charges “Decisions on the pay of local government work forces are for on gas and electricity bills. The Global Warming Policy local government employers, rather than central Government, to Foundation has shown that one-fifth of our soaring negotiate. Provision was made in the local government settlement energy bills are accounted for by the hidden subsidies for local authorities to pay the £250 increase”. and other costs to decarbonise our electricity industry. So the Government have handed them that money. He This injures our recovery. The cost of the low-carbon continued: economy will be £13 billion a year, soon rising to “We gave them the opportunity to pursue the policy that we £18 billion. China, India, and to a lesser extent the are pursuing at national level, but it is ultimately for them to USA, have rejected constraints on carbon-based energy. decide how to pay their employees”.—[Official Report, Commons, Investment and jobs will be forced overseas by the 4/7/11; col. 1335.] Government’s actions. The director-general of the CBI However, it has emerged that many local authorities has wryly observed that green taxes on cement, steel have allocated the money to other budgets and have and lubricants will mean that even windmills will soon not given it to their low-paid workers. Despite that, be too expensive to manufacture in this country. the Government have said that they have no plans We cannot afford such follies. Last year our trade either to compel local authorities to spend the money deficit was £50 billion, despite the 25 per cent devaluation. in the way that was intended or to recall the money. Is The benefits of devaluation in terms of exports have that not a shocking example of the Government promising been so marginal that I query whether they are worth with one hand but taking away with the other? the manifest inflationary costs condoned by the Monetary I urge the Minister to take this matter on board for Policy Committee. further discussion within the relevant departments and to reconsider this approach. The Government Lord Spicer: My noble friend is making a very need to act to ensure that those promised the additional important speech, and I am particularly struck by £250, those expecting it and those desperately needing what he is saying about inflation. Will he accept that it receive the payment that the Chancellor, less than a the problem with inflation is that it can get out of year ago, told them they would receive. control, that it becomes cumulative? I wonder whether he had in mind any figure of inflation at which that might occur. My own view is that it is between 5 and 9.31 pm 7 per cent, but I wonder what his view is. Lord Ryder of Wensum: My Lords, I applaud the general direction of the Chancellor’s attack on public Lord Ryder of Wensum: My noble friend has spending, yet I nurse concerns about the Government’s consistently warned about the dangers of inflation economic coherence. The Government’s growth strategy over the past 30 to 40 years. As I recall, in his maiden is deficient. Growth requires stronger supply-side measures, speech last year he highlighted this threat. I agreed starting with deregulation. I tabled a Written Question with him then, and I agree with him now, because when the Government had been in office for almost a inflation, as he knows, has been above target for more year, inviting Ministers to set out the number of regulations than four of the past five years. We can feel very revoked since the general election. The answer was thankful that the MPC members are not paid performance none. It appears that despite languishing in Opposition bonuses. The Business Secretary gently chided me for for 13 years, the Conservatives were unprepared for complaining about inflation in a debate a year ago, Government, otherwise action would have been taken implying that it had little to do with the Treasury. Up by now. to a point, Lord Copper, only up to a point. I confess 1175 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1176 to acting as a foot soldier, like my noble friend Lord A major problem facing the Government was that Spicer, in the battles against inflation during the 1970s one in five young people was not employed. The and 1980, sharing Milton Friedman’s belief that, Budget produced by the Government forecast higher “inflation is one form of taxation that can be imposed without levels of unemployment. This was serious, and it was legislation”. the consequence of the Government’s decision. In the I wager that inflation is built into every economic Finance (No. 3) Bill debate, Malcolm Wicks, the member calculation made by the Treasury. The suppression of for Croydon North, speaking on the Department for inflation may not be the Treasury’s responsibility but Work and Pensions, said that 11 million people alive it is, I say to the Minister, its lasting burden. today can expect to live to 100. Democracy is becoming A week after the general election, the Prime Minister, much advanced. eager to encourage economic growth, implored the Foreign When Members of Parliament retire, they leave the Office to play a livelier role in helping our export drive, labour market and draw the state and occupational though it later took him seven months to put a trade pension at a later stage. The problem here is class Minister in post. How can the Prime Minister’s wishes variations, and variations in life expectancy depending be achieved when the Foreign Office budget has been on geography, constituency, north or south residence slashed with severity? DfID’s budget will soon exceed or work undertaken. There is considerable inequality. that of the Foreign Office by a factor of five. We donate One-fifth of men have routine occupations. There is a in this country twice as much as Japan and nearly class of workers in these routine occupations such as twice as much as Germany. Our Government raise the cleaners, packers, van drivers and unskilled labourers, equivalent of £300 per household for overseas aid. many of whom started work at the age of 15 or 16. Surely a segment of that figure would be better deployed Many of them are dead before the age of 65 and so do in the Foreign Office to promote British exports? not draw the state pension. Women undertake similar The late Lord Bauer, who I know worked closely work but there are not similar problems. over many years with the noble Lord, Lord Desai, at the London School of Economics, argued about overseas The problem with increasing the state pension age aid transfers cash from poor people in rich countries is that one category does not cover everyone. If the to rich people in poor countries. Indeed, the DfID pension age is raised to 67 or 68, this will be considered Permanent Secretary admitted earlier this month that by many to be a serious change. However, there will be the department had no idea how much British aid is a considerable difference for poorer men and women, being lost to fraud and corruption, thus underlining a who will receive a further pension penalty. Many of recent World Bank investigation unearthing massive the poorest men and women have shorter lives. What corruption in the aid field. Rumours still persist about we see now is what should be the basis of the increase the Karzai clan’s links with new blocks of flats in in the state pension age, which may be raised to 70. Dubai, partly through the collapsed Kabul Bank. Yet Those who are in major businesses and other highly we continue to pour aid into Afghanistan. Parents of paid undertakings can undertake working extensive dead soldiers must rue the extravagance of the aid practices by consulting, writing articles, considering budget when compared with the lack of military other matters and other aspects of their work. However, equipment given to their sons and daughters. I would others undertake basic works, as Malcolm Wicks set prefer my donations to be voluntary. In other words, I out. He stated: opt, even if the Prime Minister does not, for the free-will offerings of the big society over the compulsion “These people might be able to continue their work, but what of big government. about the van driver, the bus driver, the woman who cleans offices, the steel workers, the people with creaking backs and I am pleased that the Prime Minister went to Africa aching limbs who come their 60s need to retire in a very old-fashioned to preach the gospel of free trade. I hope that on his sense?”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/4/11; col. 103.] journey he found time to read Dambisa Moyo’s book, Dead Aid: Why Aid Is Not Working and How There Is That refers not to the higher social classes—they a Better Way for Africa, in which the leading Zambian commence work in their mid-20s—but to those economist argues that aid fosters poor government, hard workers who frequently start at the age of 15 and dependency, corruption and poverty. To paraphrase 16 and who need to retire much earlier and have a Bill Clinton, economic success is not a matter of reasonable rest. chance but of choice. Let chance be the road not taken Malcolm Wicks pointed out that those who start and choice of the economic road taken, with belief basic work at an earlier age should draw their state and without fear. pension four years earlier than most; that is, those who undertake routine employment just might be 9.41 pm considered by their employers as candidates for taking a state pension at an earlier stage. The major issue is Lord Sheldon: My Lords, in a debate on the Finance that given the age of the state pension, many people (No. 3) Bill in the House of Commons on 26 April this start work at the age of 25 and have 40 years of work, year, the Labour Party set out how the fundamental and then have 30 more years in retirement with policy of the Government was putting jobs and considerable pay. growth at risk. There was a risk there. One important result of the Government’s actions was that bank As people live longer, longer retirement has to be lending to small businesses fell in the first quarter of paid for. There is the possibility that a state-pension the year. The problem was that lending to small businesses age of 66 to 70 may not be an acceptable arrangement. was important to the economy and was not succeeding Such an arrangement may need to be changed as at all. factors in medical work and in people’s backgrounds 1177 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1178

[LORD SHELDON] Finally, I turn to the role of the Economic Affairs increase life expectancy; and life expectancy will increase Committee, or rather its sub-committee. I strongly over many years to come. Those who are in work must agree that the new system provides an admirable be aware of such a charge. opportunity to make better use of the experience and expertise of Members of the House of Lords. This is 9.46 pm exactly the sort of role that the present House of Lord Tugendhat: My Lords, this debate has Lords is well qualified to perform. The report puts ranged very widely but I shall confine my remarks forward two possible options in paragraph 122. I to the sub-committee’s report. As I am a member of suggest that consideration should also be given—as the Select Committee but not of the sub-committee, I the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, pointed out, this is can say with a clear conscience how very good the a matter for the whole House—to establishing the report is. sub-committee on a permanent or semi-permanent We are debating the report against the background basis. I am not committed to that formula, but I want of a number of far-reaching constitutional changes, to ensure that a variety of possible options is explored some actual and some prospective. Often, the most in order to ensure that the experience and expertise in far-reaching changes are those which are least noticed the House of Lords is harnessed in the most effective when they are introduced and appear to be the least way, whatever that may be. spectacular. That may very well prove to be the case on To conclude, I congratulate the Government above this occasion with the Government’s new approach to all on the introduction of the new approach to tax tax policy. It represents an interesting new direction policy and on the way in which they have started the and will, I think, have a considerable impact on the implementation of that policy.While one should, generally formation of policy in the future. I congratulate the speaking, adhere to the rules, there will be occasions Government as did the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, when it will be appropriate to go outside them. on its implementation. I should like to make a few I hope helpful suggestions. 9.52 pm My first hope is that that the Treasury and future Chancellors will not be afraid of being boring. The Lord Haskel: My Lords, I did not serve on your temptation inherent in producing an annual draft Lordships’ Economic Affairs Committee, but I Finance Bill will be to cut a dash and to make an congratulate the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, and impact. There will be some years when that will be the his committee on the report. It was very sensible. right thing to do, when it will be appropriate to serve By tradition, the Second Reading debate on a Finance up a delectable menu of substantial changes. That will Bill in your Lordships’ House is an occasion to consider not be the case every year and quite likely it will not be the country’s economic situation. As my noble friend the case in most years. I hope that the new approach Lord Myners explained, it is not going as well as we will lead not only to a more consultative approach to would like—that is an understatement. The accusation tax policy, but also to one that is more measured and by the shadow Chancellor that the Government have selective, and that Chancellors will not be judged by recklessly been cutting too far and too fast is beginning how far-reaching or how dramatic the changes are to stick. The noble Lord, Lord Owen, put it rather from one year to another. well in last week’s House Magazine. He said: My second hope is that the Treasury and future “There is a scratching air of general incompetence beginning Chancellors will not be afraid of disregarding to infiltrate this coalition Government”. occasionally the constraints imposed by the new Why? I think it is partly because this Government have approach. I noted what the Minister had to say on fallen into the age-old trap which has pervaded economic that point when he opened this debate. I agree with life in this country over many years. It is the trap of the sub-committee’s strictures on the disguised separating the financial sector from the rest of the remuneration measure and the supplementary charge economy. Many business people complain of this. It is on oil and gas profits. However, there will be occasions the kind of thing that JK Galbraith was referring to when it will be right for the Government of the day to when he spoke of the belief that monetary policy is the act quickly in response to a difficult or crisis situation. highly professional preserve of the financial community The banking crisis of 2008 and its aftermath provide a and has to be protected from interference by the rest case in point. There is a good general rule that should of us. normally be observed, but there will be occasions What has been the effect of the Government’s handling when Chancellors will be right to take more immediate of the debt crisis? What it seems to be doing is transferring action. the debt from the Government to the citizen. The My third hope is that the draft Finance Bill will Joseph Rowntree Foundation recently reported that if spark off what might be termed an iterative process you have suffered the average cut in pay and require with a set of proposals for action in one area sparking childcare, your standard of living will have gone down suggestions for action in another. We see an example by 10 per cent. As the noble Lord, Lord Myners, said, of this already in the way that taking evidence on tax we are told by the OBR that it expects families to go avoidance has prompted the committee’s request for deeper into debt between now and 2015. The result of the Government to follow up their anti-avoidance the Government’s policy will be Government debt strategy with one for tackling evasion. Given that perhaps down, family debt certainly up—a typical HMRC calculates that the loss from all forms of financial solution which ignores the rest of society and evasion and default is £22.6 billion versus £7.5 billion incidentally discourages investment, as many other for avoidance, this seems highly desirable. noble Lords have pointed out. 1179 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1180

The Government speak of balance in the economy, seems to be emerging during these past few days, will but balance in their sense is a compromise. Youachieve extend to something as important as our membership real balance by working on the whole economy. The of the European Union and that we will see enthusiastic noble Lord, Lords Higgins, spoke of this, and he is encouragement for the business opportunities in the right, because the line between financial and other single market. services and manufacturing has now become so blurred It has always seemed to me that there is a distinctively that it is frequently difficult to tell on which side of the British way of doing business; that is, providing services balance an activity lies and what impact it has on jobs. and goods based on honesty and integrity. Encouraging The Government’s growth paper ignores this, and the the proper kind of balance has an important role to “march of the makers” also ignores this. Selling IT play in this, which is an important part of our economic services and software that challenge established success. In today’s commercial world, people have to businesses is an example of this. Earlier this year, know what you stand for. Winston Churchill famously President Sarkozy commissioned from McKinsey a said that America will always do the right thing but report about this for the G8 summit in Paris. That only after having tried everything else. I have a terrible report calculated that for each of the 500,000 jobs feeling that that is what is happening here. lost in France due to internet innovation over the past 15 years, 2.4 new jobs had been created. These services create manufacturing growth. 10 pm Lord Northbrook: My Lords, it is interesting how Another area where the real world and the financial the noble Lord, Lord Myners, praised Alistair Darling world seem to be out of kilter is in the matter of in his opening speech but not the previous Chancellor’s enterprise zones. The Government want to encourage budget deficit expansion. I should like to remind the them through tax incentives, rate relief and other House that in an interview in August last year, he financial tricks. In the real world, business believes in reflected that the Labour Government had abandoned clusters. The old ways of the supply chain, consisting fiscal responsibility; that Gordon Brown “grew to of standard services or standard components, is giving forget” the golden rule; that Labour ran large deficits way to much more complex systems. Advance in the middle part of the previous decade when the manufacturing needs particular products and services, economy was clearly running at full capacity; that the and this is why they all need to be together. They need party needed to come clean on what cuts it would each other’s skills and services to stimulate and find make; and that it needed to prove once again that it is new products. This is where the incentives are needed, a credible party of economic management. The noble but the Government have dismantled the mechanism Lord criticised the current shadow Chancellor. He said: to do this. “I don’t agree with Ed Balls. I do think the Labour party has Another area where the balance has got out of to wrestle with the fact that it tends to leave office with large kilter is in the taxing of overseas profits. It may have deficits. And I think its licence to govern is … weakened in the satisfied the financial sector, but some see the low tax future—if it could not produce credible arguments … that it is on overseas profits as an incentive to export jobs capable of sound economic management through the cycle”. overseas and bring back the profits at a low rate The country is still recovering from the debt binge. of tax. Once again, we are assembled here to debate the Finance (No. 3) Bill, the majority of which I support. The Government talk about being green. The noble We are also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor Lord, Lord Ryder, does not like green taxes because of Pulham Market, and his committee for their excellent they encourage carbon leakage. However, the green report, which again generally speaks favourably of the taxes which the Treasury has imposed are not what the Finance (No. 3) Bill. His report applauds the introduction Office for National Statistics calls green. The recent of a new approach to tax policy-making by the coalition House of Commons report quite rightly says that they Government with the aim of bringing about a clearer, should be justified by finding a way of showing that more stable and more predictable tax system. This taxing pollution goes towards green expenditure, such approach seeks to produce better tax legislation and as less polluting vehicles or better public transport. more effective scrutiny of tax changes. I agree with the This is just another example of financial considerations report’s conclusion that this has produced a Bill, the ignoring the rest of us. content of which has generally reflected early and Another area where the Government know that fuller consideration than in the past. The report quotes there is potential for growth, and about which they two good examples of this with which I fully concur—first, should be making many more encouraging noises, is corporation tax reform and, secondly, the area of the single market, particularly in services and the changes to pensions tax relief. digital single market—and this in spite of what the However, the report rightly is critical of two other noble Lord, Lord Newby, said about the euro crisis. areas where this new approach has not been adopted. The single points of contact are well established. Indeed, There is disguised remuneration. The new provisions they are all in English, and if the Minister and other against tax avoidance in this area take up no fewer noble Lords would care to look at them, they would be than 60 pages of new legislation. Surely this would not quite impressed. So why have the Government not have been necessary had there been more consultation been giving their wholehearted enthusiasm and support beforehand. Likewise came the change to the oil and for British business to grow through greater participation gas tax regime by way of the supplementary charge. in the single market? Because they are afraid of ridicule No consultation had been made with either industry. in the press and criticism in the City. I hope that the It was not until there was a great deal of criticism that new relationship between politics and the press, which exploration in these areas would be seriously affected 1181 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1182

[LORD NORTHBROOK] to pay his tax in instalments. However, something has that at the last minute the announcement was made of recently gone wrong with the Revenue’s computer an extension to the ring-fence expenditure supplement, system which means that he has been asked to pay all which has persuaded companies like Statoil to resume his tax at once. He rang up the local Revenue office, its drilling projects. which is a nightmare process, and took more than an Before moving to considering the Finance (No. 3) hour to get through to anyone sensible. He was then Bill as a whole, I wish to congratulate the Chancellor told that this was an administrative mistake and that on his vigorous approach in tackling the appalling he need not worry. I fear that this may have happened legacy of the Budget deficit left to us by the Labour to a lot of small businesses. Has the Minister come Government. This had to be the first economic priority across any other cases in this area? after the election. His deficit reduction policies have Overall, I welcome the Finance (No. 3) Bill 2011. been approved by a whole range of organisations, The Chancellor has a difficult hand to play and progress including the IMF, the European Commission, the may appear to be uneven at times. But his message is OECD, the Fitch rating agency and Timothy Geithner, clear: Britain is open for business and it has produced the US Treasury Secretary. major incentives to companies and individuals to create Looking at the Finance (No. 3) Bill in more detail, wealth, which I believe is the right approach for the first, I shall focus on help for businesses. I welcome the economy. reduction in corporation tax for large companies from April this year, the reforms to the foreign profits Lord Myners: The noble Lord listed a number of legislation, the announcement of new enterprise zones organisations which endorsed the Chancellor’s strategy. and the proposed low rate of corporation tax for Can he remind the House whether any of those offshore finance companies. That will all be good organisations were successful in forecasting the crisis news for larger companies. Moreover, the Chancellor that hit us in 2007, including the credit rating agencies has dealt a very generous hand to VCTs and EIS to which he referred? investors, increasing the tax relief and the amount of investment while rightly warning against abuse of the rules. The slight improvement in the capital allowance Lord Northbrook: I would have to refer back to regime for short-term assets is good news. Those positive noble Lord on those matters. aspects of the Budget far outweigh the negative ones for a few sectors of the economy. Terry Scuoler chief 10.08 pm executive of the EEF, the manufacturers’ association, Viscount Hanworth: My Lords, the report of the while praising the Budget in the main, said that, Select Committee on Economic Affairs conveys one “the significant rise in energy bills threatened by the Carbon Price startling fact. We are told in paragraph 125 of the Floor is unwelcome”. latest available estimate of the tax gap, which for For smaller unincorporated businesses, the news on the year 2008-09 was £42 billion. The gap is defined as the tax front is more mixed. They should benefit from the difference between tax collected and the tax that easier planning laws. They should also be helped by should have been collected. the decision to support innovation and manufacturing, This gap represents an enormous sum of money with an additional £100 million this year for new and one must look for ways of putting it in perspective. science facilities and an increase in the SME rate of The comparison that comes to mind immediately is research and development tax credit over the next few with the size of the budget deficit. Of course, this is a years. However, two areas are definitely not to their highly variable amount, but for the past two years it advantage. The 50p income tax rate needs to be reduced has been at roughly the same level. These deficits have as soon as possible, and the Equalities Act could well been roughly four times as large as the tax gap and cause problems in taking on staff. they were preceded by deficits that were virtually Regulation is also a major area of difficulty which I negligible. shall examine in more detail. For those not familiar The immediate cause of the rising deficit and the with it, a new Cabinet sub-committee called the Reducing rising debt was the financial crisis. It was not, as some Regulation Committee was established after the coalition have suggested, the result of the profligacy of the then came to power. The committee has to review the Government. The Government were constrained to quality and robustness of regulatory proposals. buy a large proportion of the equity of the failing Astonishingly, its second report, which covers the banks and to supply them with funds in other ways as period between September and December 2010, concludes well. To do so, they had to raise the money by selling that more than 40 per cent of the regulatory proposals bonds. that it considered were not fit for purpose. The main Following the crisis, there has been a savage fiscal failing was a failure to produce cost-benefit analyses retrenchment by the current Government, and one of proposals. This all might sound rather esoteric but might have expected the debt and the deficit to have is very important. If regulations are being spewed out been reduced as a result. This has been a false expectation. that do not make sense, it is a big hindrance, especially In explaining the fallacy, one needs to make a firm to smaller businesses which do not have the back-office distinction between the gross budgetary effect of a ability to cope with them all. marginal reduction in the Government’s expenditure Let me give another example of difficulties for a and its net effect. The net effect of a reduction of £1 of smaller business. A friend of mine who is involved in a expenditure is the value of £1 less the reductions in the growing smaller company has been given the opportunity tax receipts occasioned by the additional unemployment 1183 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1184 and the reduction in economic activity, and less the If the additional rate were raised and tax avoidance consequent expenditure on unemployment benefit. In tackled, we should go a long way towards eliminating the present circumstances, a reduction in the expenditure the budget deficit. has barely any effect on the net level of the deficit. The Government are well aware of the problems of Given that this is the case, one is bound to wonder tax avoidance and they have widespread backing for why the coalition Government have placed such emphasis their aim of stamping it out. There is much to be done on their strategy for reducing the budgetary deficit by before tax avoidance in the upper echelons is successfully reducing the expenditure. The answer may be twofold. quashed. To defeat the cunning of the tax avoidance First, there may be a mistaken belief in the effectiveness industry requires an ongoing and sustained commitment of such fiscal stringency in reducing the deficit and the to the task. The problems will not be overcome until debt. Secondly, it fits well with the Government’s the level of capital gains tax is further increased. It political and economic philosophy to take steps to should be graded according to income so as to become reduce the level of government economic activity. commensurate with the levels of income tax. This is because much of the higher remuneration is gathered The Government’s economic strategy may have been in the guise of capital gains. influenced by the desire to obtain the approval of the risible credit rating agencies. These agencies have been The importance of the task and the reward for passing judgments on the viability of various European undertaking it are increasing as the distribution of economies and on the likelihood that they will default income in this country becomes more unequal and as on their sovereign debts. Perhaps, therefore, we should the ranks of the middle-income earners are decimated. compare our economy with the economies that have It should be noted that the UK records the highest value suffered from the adverse effects of the assessments of in northern Europe of the Gini coefficient, which measures the credit rating agencies and wonder whether it might the inequality of income distribution. It remains to reasonably be subject to the same aspersions. say how the economy should be stimulated. It should be stimulated not from the demand side but from the It should be remarked at the outset that whereas supply side by the provision of capital to businesses and those economies that are currently subject to debt enterprises, both large and small. The banks should be crises have a substantial proportion of their borrowings called upon to provide this capital, and they should be in short-term loans from the money markets, UK debt subject to severe penalties if they fail to do so. is, by contrast, preponderantly of the medium and long-term varieties that have a limited exposure to the The Government have recently declared bold whims of the markets. The UK’s public debt as a plans for investing in renewable energy and in nuclear proportion of GDP stands at 80 per cent. By comparison, power generation, but these will come to nothing if Greece’s debts are 142 per cent of GDP, Ireland’s the necessary capital is not available. At present, the debts are 96 per cent, Portugal’s 93 per cent and even encouragement to banks to lend more is akin to Germany has greater public borrowings than the UK pushing on a string. The Government need to be far at 83 per cent of GDP. more commanding in their approach to this problem. One should also compare the size of the annual 10.15 pm deficits of the various countries. Here, at present, Britain does not fare so well. As a proportion of GDP, Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am conscious its current deficit is the third largest in Europe. It must that the hour is moving on. Tempted though I am to be conceded that the UK could and should do better summarise the contributions of all noble Lords to this in reducing the level of its budgetary deficit. Given debate, which has been absolutely fascinating, I will that this cannot be achieved effectively by reducing leave that particular joy to the Minister. government expenditures, one must ask by what other I will begin by emphasising those parts of the means it might be reduced. The means must be by debate that I am sure will obtain the enthusiastic securing the growth of the economy and by increasing acceptance of the whole House. The debate was graced the levels of personal taxation. by the outstanding maiden speech of the noble Lord, There is ample scope for obtaining significant revenues Lord Magan of Castletown. We very much appreciated by increasing the top rate of taxation. The current the forthrightness of his speech in the areas that he British rates are below those of other northern European covered. It was a tour de force, and at times it was also countries and they have been at low levels ever since somewhat of a tour d’horizon. The problem of a tour their radical reduction in the early years of the Thatcher d’horizon in this House is that we do from time to time Administration. The basic UK rate is at 20 per cent; have to abide by certain time constraints. However, on the higher rate, which becomes effective for incomes his maiden speech he was able to deploy fully the above £35,000, is 40 per cent; and an additional rate of arguments and we all very much appreciated what he 50 per cent—which is a recent provision—is operative had to say. We are also grateful to the Minister for only for incomes in excess of £150,000. At the level of introducing the Bill and for covering it in a very income where the additional rate is chargeable, it limited time, conscious of the fact that many dimensions becomes common for remunerations to take various of the Finance (No. 3) Bill would be covered in the forms that are aimed at the avoidance of tax. Disguised debate, to which he would be expected to respond at remunerations are widespread throughout the financial the end. sector and at the higher reaches of corporate enterprise. There has been a great deal of approval on the These sidestep income tax through awards or incentive speech and on the work of the noble Lord, Lord payments mediated by trusts, third parties or offshore MacGregor of Pulham Market. We all appreciate the pensions. Non-repayable tax-free loans are also common. sterling work that he does for the committee. From the 1185 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1186

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] issue of global demand, we have our part to play in contributions to a debate of this kind we see the very this, too. We have the greatest doubts about the particular constructive work that the committee does in discrete strategy being followed by the Government. As the areas. I do not doubt that we all recognise the very noble Lord, Lord Desai, said, it was a pity that the serious recommendations about the degree of consultation noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, was not here in this that can go on with regard to taxation, encouraging debate, as he above all on these occasions has identified the Government to go further than they have gone so the strategy that a coalition Government pursued far, although we recognise their good intentions. We 90 years ago in the face of public crisis over finances. also recognise the necessary work on anti-avoidance It took us almost to war time and government expenditure and in due course increased work on anti-evasion as in war time to recover. We worry, and are critical of far as taxation is concerned. In particular, I want to the fact, that the rate of deficit reduction that the comment on his points about the Revenue staff. I Government are pursuing is one that may lead to understand fully why the committee reached its similarly bleak prospects for this country over this conclusions on anxieties regarding the competence of period of time. Revenue staff. We have only to compare the rates paid Of course, in the debate, there have been so many in the public sector against those paid to the adversaries comments about the Bill itself, and it scarcely behoves in the private sector who seek to limit the taxation me to seek to reply to all of them. But I hope that the paid by companies to realise what an enormously Minister will pay some attention to those who have difficult job the public sector has in those terms. That argued about particular aspects of the social impact of is to say nothing of the fact that it cannot help that the Budget. I hope that he will respond to the arguments part of the Government’s deficit reduction plan is to that my noble friend Lord Anderson and the noble reduce HMRC staff. Of course that produces strains Lord, Lord Browne, produced on the question of the in the department in the crucial areas where extra extent to which the Government intend to pursue revenues can be obtained. family-friendly policies, of which we have seen little at All sides in the debate appreciate that this Budget the present time. I hope that also he will appreciate has been produced at a time of great economic difficulty. those contributions of my noble friends Lord McFall We all recognise that there has been a global financial and Lord Watson of Invergowrie, and several other crisis which has led every country that does not have noble friends. They emphasised the fact that the great the strongest of economies into very real difficulties. danger is that we look once again as if we were We all recognise that we need to get deficits down. concentrating overwhelmingly on the finance of That is why we do not doubt that the Government had dimensions of the economy—a point that my noble to take tough decisions on spending cuts. Nevertheless, friend Lord Haskell also brought late into the debate. the best way of getting the deficit down is to employ The Government have said that it is their intention to the assets of the country as fully as possible. That rebalance the economy, but it is quite clear that the means retaining people in constructive work as best manufacturing industry is not getting the support, we can. However, a great deal of the Government’s resources or opportunities from the banks to borrow strategy, particularly with regard to the public sector, in order to invest that would help to put our economy is to reduce our productive units and the ability of on a sounder footing. people to work and to earn. People who do not earn This debate has been extremely valuable, and we do not, of course, pay taxes—nor do they consume or recognise the very constructive comments on all sides. sustain demand. Therefore, it is of no great surprise, We hope, however, that the Minister will also appreciate or it ought not to be, that this economy has staggered that, as far as Her Majesty’s Opposition are concerned, into a position of negative growth over recent quarters. there is a real difference between our perspective on It looks by all accounts, and all forecasts, as if it will the strategy which ought to be pursued at this present be a very considerable time indeed before we see time, and at the moment we are holding the Government anything like significant positive growth, despite the to account where its case is remarkably thin. fact that we can look at other countries—and Germany is the outstanding example—that have come through 10.25 pm this crisis and have positive rates of growth as they Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we have had an interesting tackle deficits. Of course, it is not the case, as it has debate this evening, and I thank all the noble Lords been portrayed, that the United Kingdom alone ran for their contributions. In particular, I congratulate into deficit. All these countries have had to wrestle my noble friend Lord Magan of Castletown on what with their budgetary plans. The problem is the extent was—to echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord to which they have savagely reduced demand, as this Davies of Oldham—a masterly tour d’horizon of the Government have—and the answer, on the whole, is economic scene. I have to say that it was about the one that they have eschewed that. thing on which I agreed with the noble Lord, Lord I put it to this House that if the debate that is going Davies, but let me come back to that. on in the United States of America at present should As I said in my opening remarks, the Government be won by the kind of voices that we have heard from welcome the constructive comments of the Economic certain parts of the House on the government Benches Affairs Committee, and we will take these into account today, by the rightwing Republicans and the Tea Party as we entrench a more predictable, stable and simple advocates, we will see a decline in the American economy tax system. This year’s Finance Bill, the third of the that will render our capacity to recover extremely current Session, has come through an unprecedented difficult indeed, if not impossible, by 2015. Therefore, degree of consultation and engagement, and implements we should recognise that when we are discussing this many of the changes announced at the Budget. 1187 Finance (No. 3) Bill[18 JULY 2011] Finance (No. 3) Bill 1188

As we said at the Budget, and as we said last year, Lord, Lord Myners, and his part in the previous we are committed to growth through investment, through Government, but we shall see. We then got away from private sector recovery, and not through unsustainable the pessimists but came back to one or two a bit deficits. This Bill moves us forward on that path to towards the end. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord stability and recovery. It promotes our international Haskel, joined in by talking about the Government competitiveness by cutting corporation tax by a further transferring debt to the citizens. The trouble is that the 1 per cent and by reforming our controlled foreign government debt is the debt of the citizens and that company rules. These are key steps to creating the attitude, I fear, underlay so much of what the previous most competitive tax system in the G20. Government did. They completely failed to recognise The Bill encourages growth by supporting our that it is the citizens who, at the end of the day, have to entrepreneurs and SMEs, by doubling entrepreneurs’ pick up the debt. relief, increasing R&D tax credits and cutting the In terms of unrealistic ways to go about getting us small profits tax rate. It embodies fairness by lifting out of the challenge we are in, I have to say to the hundreds of thousands of people out of income tax, noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, that one way in and by ensuring that other sectors of society make a which we will absolutely kill growth is if we raise fair contribution to cutting the deficit and restoring further the top rate of income tax from a level which is sustainable growth. It provides for a better environment not one that this Government wish to see in the by incentivising investment in cleaner sources of energy. medium term. We desperately need to encourage I am pleased to say that these points were picked up in entrepreneurship and growth and the one thing we different ways by a number of noble Lords in this should not think of doing is further raising the top debate. rate of tax. I am pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Let me first take what I might call the pessimist Myners, nodding in approval. tendency. The debate did not get off to a cracking start I do not recognise the picture which the pessimists given the tone set by the noble Lord, Lord Myners, paint. However, I recognise that there are a lot of and followed up by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, so serious challenges out there, which noble Lords pointed let me talk to the pessimists for a moment. This is an to throughout the debate. I cannot deal with them in economy in which the private sector has generated detail but my noble friend Lord Newby was the first—and over 500,000 new jobs in the last year. Manufacturers virtually the last—speaker to refer to the European are talking to me about shortages of skills; about dimension, which is very difficult, while my noble the need for more engineers; about welcoming the friend Lord Higgins again pointed out the real challenges Government’s apprenticeship schemes; and all the noble that there are in analysing the monetary situation and Lord, Lord Myners, does is talk down the prospects taking lessons from it. for the economy. To be fair to him, he recognises that The noble Lord, Lord Desai, raised the question of the economy is in the difficulty it is in because his the savings rate and I completely agree with the challenge Government did not deal with the structural deficit that that poses. I am delighted that the noble Lord when they could have done. I certainly applaud his appears to have lost none of his vigour even though it frankness, but it is a frightening challenge; and a appears that Delilah may have got at Samson. It was a legacy which the previous Government left. great reassurance that he is still on fine form. My I am, however, encouraged. On Friday, I was noble friend Lord Ryder of Wensum was also on fine Manchester, the old stamping ground of the noble form. He raised a lot of points but, yes, regulation and Lord, Lord Barnett, an area where the rebalancing employment are very challenging. I would point out to from the public to the private sector is as challenging my noble friend that we are in the process of putting as anywhere. The latest quarterly survey from the 21,000 regulations on the Red Tape Challenge website. Greater Manchester chamber of commerce points out We will indeed eliminate significant quantities of regulation encouraging signs. I think that some noble Lords need while on employment law, another key area, we have to get out and about around the country more. already made moves on unfair dismissal to right the On the specific point which the noble Lord, Lord balance between employers and employees. My right Barnett, raised about reserves, it is a little late at night honourable friend the Chancellor has identified five to go into details about this. However, I know that it is other areas where we are looking at employment regulation a point that bothers the noble Lord considerably so I at the moment. will write to him. The noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, talked about the protection that is important to lower-paid Lord Barnett: Don’t bother. public sector workers. The Government have indeed made the £250 payment for all those within central Lord Sassoon: The noble Lord says “Don’t bother” government and are encouraging all other public sector so I will not. I do not know whether other noble Lords bodies to abide by that. heard; as he tells me not to write, I will not, but I have made the offer. Lord Watson of Invergowrie: On that point, the As to the extraordinary speech from the noble Minister mentions all other public bodies but I Lord, Lord Myners, which continually came back to mentioned that local authorities have been allocated praise the former Chancellor, Mr Darling, I can only resources for this specific purpose, yet the Government think that he read in the Sunday newspapers, as I did, appear to be allowing them to spend the money that Mr Darling is coming close to finalising his on whatever they see fit. Surely, that defeats the memoirs. I assume that this was a late play to make Government’s purpose in regard to the £250 that the sure that Mr Darling looks favourably on the noble Minister mentioned. 1189 Finance (No. 3) Bill[LORDS] Finance Bill 2011: EAC Report 1190

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, as I have said, and as the not just about cutting the headline rate, which is why noble Lord recognises, the money is available and the in the broader package we are looking at such critical Government are encouraging not just local authorities things as the patent box, the treatment of intragroup but all public sector bodies to stick to the rule that has dividends, and so on. Also in the report, the question been applied to central government employees. of evasion came up a number of times from my noble The noble Lord, Lord Sheldon, drew attention to friend Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market. The noble another important area; that of an ageing population Lords, Lord Bilimoria and Lord McFall, welcomed and its complexities that cut both ways, as he explained. the £900 million of additional resources. HMRC is My noble friend Lord Northbrook brought us back to taking this very seriously. The noble Lord, Lord Davies one of the key points, for which I am grateful to him, of Oldham, is incorrect in his understanding. HMRC on the Budget that has pro-business tax changes as is increasing staff to tackle avoidance, evasion and central to it. fraud by around 2,500 full-time equivalent staff by 2014-15. It will consider the benefits of publishing a In the middle of the debate, we had an interesting more detailed document, setting out its approach to sub-debate around the importance of marriage and evasion later in the year. It is getting late and I should the family. Points were raised by the noble Lords, Lord and will conclude. Anderson of Swansea and Lord Browne of Belmont, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of As noble Lords are aware, this Government came Clashfern. We are keen to send a clear message that to power inheriting the largest peacetime deficit in the family and marriage matter and that strong and healthy nation’s history and an economy on its knees. We have families help to create a strong and healthy society. In taken difficult decisions in our two Budgets to date to a little over a year, this Government have proved their tackle this dire inheritance, eliminate our structural determination to tackle the wider issues that can affect current deficit over the coming four years and stimulate family stability. We have made great strides in improving a private sector recovery. This strategy has been endorsed outcomes for families, particularly those on low and by the IMF, the OECD, the European Commission middle incomes, through our work on welfare reform. and UK business organisations. Of course, we have Furthermore, the universal credit will ensure that people always said that recovery would be choppy. Our plans will generally keep more of their earnings for themselves necessarily incorporate a degree of flexibility through and their families than is currently the case. However, the automatic stabilisers to allow government spending we need to be realistic. It is not fiscally practical to to move up and down with the economics cycle. introduce a transferable personal allowance for married This Bill further delivers our commitment to improve couples at this stage. Having said that, our commitment our competitiveness, encourage investment and support remains clear. our businesses. At the same time it removes hundreds We then had some interesting discussion referring of thousands of individuals from income tax and specifically to the Economic Affairs Committee report, helps reduce the cost of living for families across the and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord, MacGregor country, and it makes these changes in a way that is of Pulham Market, not only for chairing the committee fairer and more consultative than any previous Finance but for drawing out some of the critical points from Bill. I commend the Bill to the House. the report. I am grateful to him and to my noble friend Bill read a second time. Committee negatived. Standing Lord Tugendhat for their general welcoming of the Order 46 having been dispensed with, the Bill was read a Government’s new approach to policy-making. I shall third time and passed. respond to a couple of areas that were specifically raised, such as disguised remuneration. HMRC had indicated through its Spotlights publication, in particular, Finance Bill 2011: EAC Report that these schemes were generally not effective. The Motion to Take Note Government decided to publish draft concert legislation for consultation at the same time as introducing 10.41 pm proportionate anti-forestalling rules, with effect from 9 December 2010, because we saw that as the best way Moved by Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market of combining the necessary tackling of an exceptional situation, to take the phrase of my noble friend Lord That this House takes note of the Report of the Tugendhat, with an ability to consult on the rules. Economic Affairs Committee on The Finance Bill 2011. (6th Report, HL Paper 158) I am grateful to the various noble Lords who talked about the road map on corporation tax. The noble Motion agreed. Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, drew attention to it, and I agree with him that corporation tax reform is House adjourned at 10.42 pm. GC 365 Arrangement of Business[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 366

I am encouraged that the Government are thinking Grand Committee of making this sort of information available. The information may not sink in with employers very Monday, 18 July 2011. quickly, but that will happen eventually. The Swiss publish individual marks, so that people can see where they are on a scale out of 100, and Swiss employers Arrangement of Business now understand that the mark is more important than Announcement some artificial boundary that has been inserted in the middle to say whether someone isaCoraD.Ithink that this would be progress for everybody, and I am 3.30 pm very glad that the Government are prepared to The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): contemplate moving in this direction. I beg to move. My Lords, it is now 3.30 pm. As is usual on these occasions, if there is a Division in the Chamber while Lord Peston: My Lords, I ask the noble Lord, Lord we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as Lucas, to enlighten me, as I do not know much about the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes. what goes on in schools. Certainly, as someone who was once a university teacher, it never occurred to me Education Bill that the marks meant anything at all. Is it the case that the pupil is given a mark by the teacher but the pupil Committee (7th Day) does not know the mark and is instead given a grade? Is that what actually happens now? 3.31 pm Certainly, what used to happen in universities was Relevant document: 15th Report form the Delegated that, essentially, you gave students marks and, if those Powers Committee, 13th Report from the Joint Committee marks corresponded to certain grades but there were on Human Rights. not the desired number of people in the grades, you just changed the marks. In other words, the marks Amendments 89 to 90 not moved. were meaningless. What does it mean to be given a mark of 80? It means nothing at all; it is not a measure Amendment 91 of achievement because we could have given a mark of Moved by Lord Lucas 0.8 or 0.08 or anything else. What matters is first how the students are ranked, and you then need some other 91: After Clause 29, insert the following new Clause— measure of their achievement, which I do not believe “Marks to be published at Key Stages 4 and 5 is given in any way by either numbers or grades. Where a student is awarded a grade in an examination at Can the noble Lord at least tell me what actually Key Stage 4 or Key Stage 5, and that grade is based on happens in schools? When someone marks the student’s an underlying mark, that mark shall be disclosed to the student, and this information shall also be made papers, would the student know what grade they would available in or with any data set that include the grades get if they knew the mark? Are the marks adjusted to awarded in such examinations.” get to the grades, or are the grades adjusted to make them come out the way that they ought to come out? Lord Lucas: My Lords, again I have received a very satisfactory e-mail from the Government on this subject. Lord Lucas: My Lords, perhaps someone will rescue My object here is merely to try to persuade the me if I get this wrong—there are several experts here—but, Government to release more information about the generally, rather than the marks being shifted, the actual marks obtained by students in examinations. grade boundaries are shifted, so you do not know If you are trying to use data to evaluate schools, what mark the C-D boundary is until the assessors having things divided into grades is very inconvenient have gone through the whole process of marking the and is a very coarse measure of student achievement, papers and assessing how the students have answered which therefore tends to produce rather coarse judgments the questions so that they can see where the level of of how well individual schools and students have difficulty lies. done. It is much more helpful to have the detailed The importance of knowing individual marks is grades. If the Government allow more access to that the information allows you to look more finely at government data in respect of not just universities but how students have done and how a school has done. schools, that will help parents and whatever intermediaries That would enable, for instance, parents to look at the they use—I declare an interest as the editor of the results in a norm-referenced rather than criterion- Good Schools Guide, which uses a lot of government referenced manner, if that was a judgment that they data—and it will greatly improve the information that preferred to make. At the moment, you cannot say can be passed on to parents. Generally, it will also whether a child is in the top 10 per cent nationally, improve people’s understanding of where a school is. because you only have very coarse information as to To have a C-D boundary—or even an A-B or B-C where the grade boundaries are. I agree with the noble boundary—and to judge schools on how many children Lord, Lord Peston, that there is no significance to the they get to one side or the other of that boundary is a marks themselves—it is all a matter of relativities and very coarse way of measuring the performance of a rank and order—but my proposal would start to give school, which might be one mark either way. What is us more and better information about schools. What interesting is where the preponderance of the students use we can make of that information is down to our are on a much finer scale. individual ingenuity. GC 367 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 368

Lord Peston: I would like to add another question. performance information. In March 2011, we published Is the purpose of this to compare schools? Is that the school-level information on attainment in individual point? What you need therefore is some ruler which GCSE subjects. As has been stated, in relation to exam enables you to say that this school is more successful marks, the candidates do have the right to request than that school “because”. I do not understand what their marks. In practice, awarding bodies do provide you put in the “because” bit. marks—and, where requested, exam scripts—to schools and candidates. That means, for instance, universities Lord Lucas: My Lords, comparing schools is a can ask applicants to provide individual marks in complicated business and you have to take all sorts of order to differentiate performance within a grade. things into account. Exam results are part of that. To In relation to publication of marks in data sets, we have the marks finely graded makes them a better part want to make as much information as possible available of measuring how schools have behaved. When the about exam results, and we are happy to commit to system gets used to it, such information will be better considering the practicality of obtaining and publishing for students in that they could show that, for example, marks as part of the national school-level data we are they are in the top 1 per cent nationally or that they releasing. I understand my noble friend will be speaking only missedaCbyonemark.Ineither sense, students to officials about this at a meeting on 25 July. would benefit from being able to display them. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has Students can get the marks under certain circumstances said, there will be practical issues that we need to now. If you ask for a regrade, you get to see what your consider. Collecting individual marks rather than just marks have been but, because you cannot see everybody grades would mean a significant increase in the quantity else’s marks or what the universe of marks looks like, of data that the department would need to collect and there is very little you can do with that. So they exist process, which we would need to ensure we could but they are not disclosed. manage without undue cost. That said, although it is the Government’s intention to collect and publish as Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, I want to much information on qualifications as we can, in make a couple of comments. First, much of the anxiety relation to having both marks and grades it is the case about the current grading system is because people that the same mark on a harder paper would represent have lost confidence in the way that the examinations better performance and it would not always be fair to are marked at the moment. I remember that, when I candidates simply to add up the raw marks to give the was doing O-levels and such-like many moons ago, overall result. A uniform mark scale puts all those raw there was much more confidence in the marking system marks on the same scale, which is then converted into and the legitimacy and accuracy of the examination the grade boundaries. boards. Maybe that was misplaced but that was certainly The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, mentioned confidence how I was brought up. Perhaps the scandals in recent in exam awarding bodies. Ofqual was established by times about the quality of the marking and so on have the previous Government to improve and strengthen raised concerns and people want to dig deeper to confidence in the standards of exam awarding bodies. know the underlying marks, which is understandable. Ensuring that that confidence is restored is what Ofqual I am anxious, however, as to how this would work has at its heart. It may of course be that our memories in practice. If the grades and the marks are published of the olden days when everything was so much better and if some children will only be two or three marks have somehow managed to make us feel that it was below the next grade up, if you run that parallel better; I seem to remember from my days of A-levels system of marks and grades, you will engender a lot of that there were still quite a lot of queries to the boards, new appeals because anyone who is a short step away but we were much more intimidated in making those from the next grade up will flood the market with queries. appeals. Unless we have a mechanism for managing I hope that, with the assurance that we will give that, therefore, there will be more discontent than serious consideration to the practicality of publishing satisfaction. I am not sure the system can run in marks as part of the school-level data that we are parallel in the way the noble Lord is proposing. It may making available to all, my noble friend will feel able be, however, that the famous e-mail, which I should to withdraw his amendment. have seen but have not, spells out what the Government intend and will satisfy those points. The Earl of Listowel: I have a quick question. Is Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, my noble there a measure that is easily understood and easily friend has made strong arguments for making available to judge the progress that schools make in comprehensive, transparent information on exam results improving a child’s education? The Committee was and school performance available to all and we are discussing comparing schools. Is there a quick and committed to increasing the amount of information easy measure that is easily accessible to say that this available so that people can build their own measures school is particularly good at taking children from one and reach their own views about progress in the education level to another, rather than judging all schools by one system. We have already published more information standard? Does that make sense? than ever before. The 2010 tables enabled users to download the Lord Lucas: My Lords, the difficulty is that the key school-level data underlying the table so that they stage 2 and key stage 1 data that are published are so could carry out their own analyses. In January 2011, coarse. The idea that you can effectively chuck children school spending data were published alongside into one of three pots at the age of 11 and sensibly use GC 369 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 370 that as a measure of anything is not something that I then it has to conduct an act of collective worship in am comfortable with. If there were a better assessment, accordance with the tenets of some other faith. That a teacher assessment, of where children were on a would be decided by the SACRE, as I understand it, finer scale, you would have something that you could under the provisions of paragraph 4(1) of Schedule 20 more reliably use to chart progress. Because of the to the Schools Standards and Framework Act, presumably coarseness of the base indicators, you can really only at the behest of the governors. Here I would like to ask measure these things when large numbers of pupils are my noble friend whether the SACREs were considered involved and the coarseness evens out. At the level of for abolition under the bonfire of the quangos and a primary school it is really pretty difficult, but at a big why it is considered necessary to retain them rather secondary you can get somewhere. Perhaps the Minister than leaving schools free to get their own advice on has something to add to that. I hope that the Government matters of religious worship and education. Whatever will consider releasing more and better data as part of the decision may be, it is almost certain to be contrary what they are doing to improve the value-added indicator, to the beliefs and practices of the majority of the which is a pretty important part of looking at how population served by the school in today’s multicultural schools do. society.

Baroness Garden of Frognal: Before my noble friend 3.45 pm sits down, the Government are looking at progress If the line of least resistance is taken, and the reports for schools, which would give a more descriptive Christian act of collective worship is retained, the picture of where schools were moving. arithmetic is clear. Only 17 per cent of men and 26 per cent of women believe in a God who created the world Lord Lucas: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. and hears their prayers and then left us to get on with it. Atheists and agnostics account for 28 per cent of Amendment 91 withdrawn. men and 17 per cent of women, while over one in five say they believe in something but they are not sure what. Fifty-seven per cent of the population practically Amendment 92 never go to church, and another 5 per cent attend less Moved by Lord Avebury than once a year. The further 17 per cent who attend at 92: After Clause 29, insert the following new Clause— least once or twice a year probably include mostly “Collective worship people who attend weddings, christenings or funerals, (1) Section 70 of SSFA 1998 (requirements relating to collective not because they believe but as acts of conformity or worship) is amended as follows. out of courtesy to friends or relations. I imagine that if (2) For subsection (1) substitute— people were asked the same question about mosques, “(1) Subject to section 71— temples or gurdwaras there would be many occasional (a) each pupil in attendance at a foundation or voluntary attendees at those establishments, for much the same school of a religious character shall on each school day reasons. attend an act of collective worship; These statistics make it clear that the compulsory (b) community, foundation or voluntary schools which are act of predominantly Christian worship in schools is not of a religious character and Academies that are not grossly out of step with the attitudes of the majority religiously designated may hold acts of collective of the population and probably the majority of the worship at the discretion of the governors. people in the areas served by most schools. Those (1A) Governors should be under an obligation to consider people have no opportunity to express their opinion representations made to them by pupils and the parents of pupils as to whether or not schools or Academies hold acts of collective under the provisions for local referendums in the worship under subsection (1)(b).” Localism Bill, since even if a petition to end compulsory (3) In subsection (2) for “community, foundation or voluntary worship complied with the conditions prescribed, the school” substitute “foundation or voluntary school of a religious local authority would have to determine that it was character”. inappropriate under Clause 47(2) of the Bill as contrary (4) In subsection (3) for “required” substitute “permitted”. to an enactment—the Schools Standards and Framework (5) In paragraphs (1) to (4) of Schedule 20 to SSFA 1998 Act already cited. Nor could the head teacher or (collective worship) for “required” substitute “permitted”.” governors lawfully decide not to have any act of daily collective worship, though some try very hard to avoid Lord Avebury: My Lords, I declare an interest: as an the duty. In its last report on the work of the SACREs, honorary associate of the National Secular Society; as Ofsted wrote plaintively: a Buddhist, which I have been since the middle of the “SACREs monitor levels of non-compliance by reading Ofsted’s 1970s; and as founder and first chairman of the All-Party school inspection reports but have limited success in persuading Parliamentary Human Rights Group from 1976 to LEAs to make compliance a priority”— 1997 and as vice-chair ever since. The group has that is, compliance with the collective worship duty. always been very active in the defence of freedom of Amendment 92 recognises the reality of the situation religion or belief, which includes the freedom not to by allowing governors to decide whether or not to believe, a right that is impaired by the compulsory hold acts of collective worship and obliges them in participation in acts of collective worship in our doing so to consider representations made to them on schools. the question by pupils and parents. This would be in Under the School Standards and Framework Act, a the true spirit of localism, unlike the top-down statutory school can apply for a determination that the requirement obligations imposed on schools by the compulsion to for Christian collective worship is not to apply but hold daily worship since the Education Act 1944. GC 371 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 372

[LORD AVEBURY] undergo tests of “Gillick competence”, a concept that The obligation to consider such representations is even adults may find difficult to grasp perfectly considering applied to academies as well as to community, foundation that it had to be decided by the highest court in the or voluntary schools. land. As I understand it, academies are free to decide for As a less satisfactory alternative, Amendment 94 themselves whether to indulge in collective worship, lowers the age at which pupils are allowed to make the how frequently and how the term “worship” is to be decision to withdraw from collective worship from the defined. I applaud that comparative freedom, but the sixth form, as it is now, to 15, which is an approximation academies are not consulting their pupils or parents of the advice of the JCHR. and seem to be uncertain where to draw the line. For The noble Lord the Leader of the House told me example, Birkenhead High School Academy, for girls that this House is the only legislature in the world aged three to 19, holds an assembly on Mondays and which includes ex officio representation of clerics, and Fridays at which they, that may be one reason why Britain is the only democracy “raise pupils’ awareness of particular festivals and celebrations”. in the western world to prescribe a mandatory act of worship in non-religious publicly funded schools, and I would call this religious education rather than worship. a daily one at that. I certainly hope that we can put This same academy hopes that, that right in this Bill, and that where such an act is “parents of all faiths and beliefs, and none, will want their retained by a school, after consultation with parents children to take part, but they are, of course, free to withdraw if and pupils, attendance should be a voluntary option. they wish to do so”. I beg to move. There may be less reason for parents to exercise this right, which is already part of the law, when the Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, I wish to assembly is only called an act of collective worship but speak to Amendment 97 in my name. I thank the does not in fact require subjection to a supernatural noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for his eloquent and being. informative introduction to this group of amendments, and of course I agree with the issues he raised. I, too, In Amendment 93, the pupil, not her parents, is the should declare an interest as secretary of the British one to make the decision. In its 28th report in 2005-06, Humanist Association and a patron of the National the Joint Committee on Human Rights said: Secular Society. I wish to speak mainly as someone “Children enjoy the right to freedom of thought, conscience who has been involved in teaching in various schools and religion under both Article 8 of the European Convention on over a number of years. I should make it clear from Human Rights and Article 14(1) of UN Convention on the the beginning that I think that a daily gathering—an Rights of the Child”. assembly, if you like—of the whole school is of I would add that paragraph 2 of Article 18 of the immense value. Such gatherings can be informative, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights uplifting and inspiring, and they do not need to be provides: Christian. I have taken part in many assemblies in my time “No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice”. and have noted that often in those assemblies Jewish, Muslim or Hindu children sat in the classroom outside It may be argued that parents have the right to the assembly because they did not wish to participate withdraw their child from an act of collective worship, and were doing very little, as far as I could make out. which is Birkenhead academy policy, and some do, but Schools are not churches, synagogues, mosques or as the JCHR points out, under English law the child temples. They are places of wide learning, and I am has an independent right of his or her own to make disappointed that—despite opposition from educational the decision if she is of sufficient maturity, intelligence practitioners and a government commitment to free and understanding. In the Gillick case, the House of up schools from prescriptive rules and regulations—a Lords decided that a girl under the age of 16 has the repeal of the duty on all schools to participate in a legal capacity to consent to medical examination and daily act of worship that is “broadly Christian in treatment, including contraceptive treatment, if she nature” is not included in the Bill. This is surely an has the intelligence and maturity to understand the outdated law. nature and implications of that treatment. A child The law, in theory at least, impedes a school’s who is compelled to attend an act of collective worship ability to provide assemblies that are not Christian but must be considered to have the same capacity to may be based on moral and ethical precepts. Some of understand the nature and purpose of worship, and the best assemblies that I have taken part in or witnessed thus to make up her mind whether to attend it, whatever have been based on such moral and ethical themes. her age. The JCHR recommended that schools should For example, I remember an assembly on the theme of grant the right to withdraw from collective worship to friendship. In it the story of Ruth from the Bible of any child found by them to be “Gillick competent”. course came up, but so did many inspirational texts. Amendment 93 eliminates the bureaucracy and Pupils contributed their own views and readings about controversiality of the decision that would have to be friendship. Such assemblies would have been technically made by the school about “Gillick competence” in outside the law—a law that is consistently flouted by every individual case because it is left entirely to the schools. Why have that law? discretion of the child. With respect to the JCHR, if The law also violates the human right of freedom of the child says that she wants to opt out, it is better to belief for children. As I have said, Christian-based take her at her word rather than force the child to assemblies exclude pupils from other faiths. My GC 373 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 374 amendment would replace the requirement to conduct schools did not accept Catholics. Jewish schools came collective worship with a requirement to hold assemblies about because so many schools did not accept Jews. that would further the, Times have changed. Everyone accepts everybody, and “spiritual, moral, social and cultural education” we should be furthering that, not denting it. of children. Assemblies should take account of the many faiths, religions and beliefs in one school. If the The Lord Bishop of Oxford: I, too, declare an law were to be changed, shared values found in different interest as a bishop of the Church of England. It will religious beliefs, including humanism, could be explored not surprise your Lordships to know that I resist the and be based on our common ground of humanity. amendments in this group. As a preliminary, I say that This would represent a new entitlement for pupils, we easily encounter in this kind of debate the myth of unlike the current requirement to provide Christian neutrality, with the idea that the amendments might collective worship. The law is outdated. Why keep it? lead us into a distinction between church schools—or, at least, religious schools—and religiously neutral schools. Baroness Flather: My Lords, I have put my name to That is a common myth: that we would have religious the amendment. I want to tell you of my own two schools and non-religious schools. I am not sure that experiences of collective assemblies—not collective we have a basic philosophical agreement on that point; worship. I do not want to pretend that we do. It is unnecessary to change the law, which seems to When I was a child in India, the school that I went be working well. We have the existing safeguards; we to held an assembly every morning. It was not for have the possibility of withdrawal. The fact that so few worship but for learning. We learnt much more, as the parents use that right of withdrawal suggests to me noble Baroness, Lady Massey, has said, about how to that most parents think that it is working pretty well. be good people, good citizens and good human beings A generous experience of spiritual and religious reflection than we would have done with one faith. My second goes on in assemblies; obviously, I go to a lot of them. experience was later in life when I went to a Methodist In them, I experience not just Christian worship but college, where we were made to go to chapel every day. spiritual reflection. I know that that is one possibility It took place in the middle of the day, so that one under the amendments, but it is the religious and could not arrive late. The teachers would go round the spiritual element that is really important. If we take classrooms making sure that none of us girls were religion out, we have lost the key domain. skiving. I am not saying that this happens now in schools, but quite often in those assemblies anti-Hindu and anti-Muslim sentiments were expressed. That left Lord Knight of Weymouth: I had no intention to us with a very bitter taste. Frankly, I never understood intervene in this debate, but the right reverend Prelate what Methodism was about until I came here and said that he thought that the current law was working worked with Methodists in my area—they do much well. I have no doubt that it may be from parents’ good work. However, we did not know that and we did perspective, but when Ofsted inspections of schools not learn about the good things. We were told only take place, do they not often find that the daily act of about the belief system. collective worship is not taking place? From the point of view of the practicality of the school, it is not The time has come to widen the remit and allow working that well. I am not aware of huge numbers of schools to focus on the needs of all the children in the parents complaining that the daily act of collective school, because I do not believe in children withdrawing worship is not taking place. People like school assemblies, from a morning assembly. If you start to do that and but if, for practical reasons, it is hard for them to come the parents start to withdraw their children, you do off because there is not a big enough hall, parents are not have a group spirit. The attitude is, “These people not complaining in large numbers. are there and those people are there. These children will not be coming”, and so on. That is a very retrograde The Lord Bishop of Oxford: I just point out the step. It should be compulsory for all children to attend statistic that 98 per cent of primary schools have a an assembly in the morning, and that assembly should daily act of worship. The noble Lord is quite right that be such that it is meaningful to everyone. I do not in secondary schools the figure is not as high as that: it understand why the principles of various faiths or is between two and three acts of collective worship a religions cannot be used in that assembly instead of week; on other occasions, the school is meeting for an just the dogma, the doctrine, or whatever, that people assembly purpose. That is what I mean by the generous feel that there should be. If we had other faith preachers interpretation of religious and spiritual reflection, which come now and again to speak at an assembly, it would is crucial. bring everybody together much more. Secondly, the system of opt-in rather than opt-out would drive a wedge into our schools which would be 4pm regrettable. We could find social division. As it is, there That is even more important now than it has ever is a difference between collective worship and corporate been, because we have separate faith schools. We are worship. Collective worship is a gathering of everyone allowing different faiths to have their own schools. At who is together in a certain place at a certain time, one time, we had just Church of England schools, such as a school. Corporate worship is when people because they were the first to provide education for opt into the faith and want to go to a church. Therefore, poor children. That is an historic and wonderful thing. we have a collective gathering which allows youngsters People do not even know that that is why they came to experience something and not just learn about it. about. Catholic schools came about because so many As we are legally charged with promoting the spiritual, GC 375 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 376

[THE LORD BISHOP OF OXFORD] I turn to the amendments in the name of the noble moral, cultural, mental and physical development of Lord, Lord Avebury. Amendment 92 would at least pupils and society, experience matters, and the candle, ensure that conducting an act of worship was made the singing, the prayer, the stillness and the silence, optional for schools without a religious designation, which are so often present, are all part of the experience and Amendment 93 would make attendance at worship of the spiritual, which is part of what we are required optional for all children. However, the less satisfactory to provide. amendment from my perspective is Amendment 94, Thirdly, there is the problem of a wedge appearing which would lower the age at which pupils may withdraw between two different types of school. One of the themselves from collective worship from sixth-form glories of our system is that it is an integrated church age to a default age of 15. state system or a system of church schools within the The three amendments in the name of the noble state. It works well because it is integrated and, if we Lord, Lord Avebury, would certainly be an improvement drive a wedge by saying that there are church schools on the present situation, and we now have an opportunity over here and non-religious schools over there, we will to reform what I think is a very outdated way of deny ourselves something rather precious about the looking at collective worship. I therefore hope that the British system. There is much more that I could say Government will be prepared to respond suitably to but I will not go on. these amendments. Lastly, let us remember that in 2010 the Office for National Statistics said that 71 per cent of the population Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I have no interest to of this country still want to identify with—I think that declare save that in previous pieces of legislation I that is the phrase—the Christian religion. If we are have tried to achieve exactly the same objectives that swapping statistics, 86 per cent of people in this country my noble friend is trying to achieve today. I agree with go into a church at some point during the year, but if what he is saying. I also agree with the noble Baroness, 71 per cent want to identify with the religion, that Lady Massey, that it is important that children are would seem to indicate that most parents are happy able to make decisions for themselves about something with the way that we go about things at the moment. like this. We are not just talking about a piece of We have a good British compromise and, if we rock religious education; we are talking about worship. I the boat with this, I do not know quite where that will wonder whether the proponents of the out-of-date law lead. I think that it will probably be to our detriment. as it stands would feel the same way if this were a Muslim country and Christian children were being Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I support asked to worship in the way that Muslims do, even the contributions of my noble friend Lady Massey though they did not espouse that faith. and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, to this debate. In The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, also put her my view, the law as it stands is a legacy of a society finger on the fact that this is completely out of date in which is unrecognisable compared with the one that our multicultural society. If it is true that academies we have today, with its wide variety of beliefs and have the freedom to decide whether or not to do this traditions. The Bill provides an ideal opportunity to and maintained schools do not, that is not right. modernise an outdated and overly prescriptive law, and the amendments give us the opportunity to do Lord Touhig: My Lords, I declare an interest as a precisely that. Christian. I am concerned about these amendments. Although it is true that parents have the right to Currently there is a legal requirement on all schools to withdraw their child from collective worship, for many have a daily act of collective worship of a broadly parents this is very unsatisfactory because it means Christian nature. As has been said by a number of that the child may feel excluded and separated from noble Lords, parents have the opportunity to withdraw their classmates, and this can have a very damaging their children from these acts of worship if they so effect, particularly on very young children. In some wish and that seems to make perfect sense. These respects, I speak from personal experience in that amendments erode this requirement. regard. My mother was a Roman Catholic and my Collective worship is important for two reasons. father was not, but they insisted that we went to state First, it is a visual recognition of the Christian heritage schools, and my mother filled in the appropriate forms of our country—it is a Christian heritage. It enables to the effect that I was a Roman Catholic. Therefore, children of whatever faith to engage and better understand when I went to school, instead of going in with this heritage. Secondly, it is an opportunity for children everyone else, I sat outside the door. It was thought and young people to explore their own faith. For some right and proper that I should be separated from the children, that may be their only opportunity to understand rest of the children. I remember being very upset the Christian faith. about this, getting home and saying to my mother, I am Catholic and my family were Catholic but they “They don’t really like me, you know, because I’m a were not practising. I first came into contact with the Roman Catholic”. Perhaps that is one reason why I Catholic faith and Christianity by going to a Catholic grew up to be a secularist. That is by the way but the school. The majority of youngsters at that time at the fact remains that it is not a very good solution simply school were not Catholic. I might have been ahead of to say that parents can withdraw their children. Much my time ecumenically but I went to half-past 9 mass as better in my view is the kind of assembly envisaged by a Catholic and, because my neighbours were Baptists, my noble friend Lady Massey, which is available for at 11 o’clock, I went to the High Street Baptist Chapel everybody.People can attend irrespective of their religion in Abersychan and even took part in Sunday school or no religion. anniversary singing “Jesus wants me for a sunbeam”. GC 377 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 378

The point is there was a good feel in the school and both Houses of Parliament to take part, because the people took part in the collective act of worship. Some law so prescribes it, why is it not suitable for our of the amendments undermine parents’ primary right children to do the same? as the educators of their children. Indeed, Article 2 of the First Protocol to the European Convention on Baroness Massey of Darwen: Could I interrupt my Human Rights says that parents have a right to educate noble friend? Members of your Lordships’ House are their children on their own religious and philosophical a good deal older than school children and can make convictions. Amendment 93, moved by the noble Lord, their own choice. Lord Avebury, would alter this requirement for all children to attend collective worship from one which is Lord Touhig: Yes, indeed, and a number of Members compulsory, unless parents withdraw them, to one did not come into the Chamber. It is right and proper which is voluntary. The importance of collective worship that they should be able to exercise that right. Equally, would be undermined and children might choose due parents on behalf of their children can exercise the to peer pressure not to take part in the daily act of same right under the law as it stands. My noble friend collective worship. said earlier that the law was flouted and therefore asked why we have it, but there is a law which says you Lord Avebury: Is it all right for peer pressure to should not drink and drive. Would we imagine abolishing compel them to take part in collective worship, although it because some people flout it? This morning I saw not to compel them not to take part? two people driving cars while using their mobile phones. Again, that is against the law, but because the law has been broken, should we take it off the statute book? Lord Touhig: That is not the case. It is a question of Of course we should not. I do not think that that parental decision. If we accept the European Convention arguments carries any weight. on Human Rights, parents have a primary right to For the reasons I have given, it is worth while to educate their children. That is what it says. maintain the collective act of worship in our schools and I believe it is right that that collective act of Baroness Brinton: The distinction is clear in the Act worship should be Christian in nature for the reasons I about collective worship versus religious education. have argued. Other noble Lords may have different These amendments tackle the issue of collective worship views, and it is important that we should respect each rather than education. I am struggling to see the noble other’s views. The present law allows for that. Lord’s point about how this impacts on parental choice, My final comment is this. One of my oldest friends, because parents are free to have an act of worship with the late Leo Abse, represented Pontypool and Torfaen their children outside school, but more importantly in the other place for over 30 years and was probably how it impacts on religious education if it is a collective responsible for more social legislation than any Back- act of worship. Bencher in the history of the British Parliament. His final words to his constituency Labour Party when he announced his retirement were these: “Tolerate everything Lord Touhig: Parents have a right to decide on their and tolerate everyone, but do not tolerate intolerance”. children’s education and, if they choose for their children I believe that these amendments lead to a degree of to take part in a collective act of worship, which the intolerance. I am sure that that is not the intention, law of this country so prescribes, they are entitled to but it is where I believe they will lead. exercise that right. I do not think we are entitled as legislators to change that. Lord Peston: My Lords, I start by declaring an interest, or in my case a lack of interest, in that I am 4.15 pm an atheist. I regard all religions and religious doctrines Amendment 93 affects sixth-form students who as simply nonsensical—tout court nonsensical. Over might choose to withdraw from a collective act of the past few years I totally opposed the Government, worship, but other pupils may do so only if their which I supported, in their total misuse of public parents agree. The amendment tabled by the noble money in order to increase the vast number of religious Lord, Lord Avebury, would increase the number of schools in this country. It is a source of pride to me children able to withdraw themselves from collective that I never once voted with my own Government on worship because it would include all pupils over the that extension and waste of public money, and I stick age of 15. Again, this dilutes parents’ rights in relation to that view. to their choices of how they wish their children to be Referring to my noble friend’s remarks just now, educated. only once in my 25 years in your Lordships’ House, I Amendment 97, tabled by my noble friend Lady ended up in the Chamber by mistake and I could not Massey, would abolish the requirement that collective get out because the doors were locked, so I was worship, except in schools of a designated religious present during the act of spiritual worship or whatever character, should be of a broadly Christian nature and it is called. I have to say that I regarded it as one of the change it to one whereby assemblies should not include weirdest experiences I have ever had, in a life that has any religious worship. Barely two hours ago, over included a great many broad experiences. I could not 100 Members of your Lordships’ House stood up in believe what I was observing, and I say that in terms. the Chamber just down the corridor and took part in a Having said that, I am as committed as anyone in collective act of worship, and the other House did the Room to freedom of thought, belief and expression. exactly the same. If it is good enough for Members of I have never spent any time trying to persuade anyone GC 379 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 380

[LORD PESTON] went to the local comprehensive, that they knew that who was religious that they should not be. Quite to the there was a vast range of different people in the world. contrary, I would regard it as a disaster in our country I am certain that they benefited enormously from that. if our young people were not brought up to read the I am not certain that I like the detail of any of the King James version of the Bible, one of the greatest amendments, and I say to my noble friend that I hope works of literature in our history. I discovered the that we can come back at Report with something that other day on Google that there are several other we can divide on so that we can at least test the versions of the Bible, and they are so bad that they opinion of the House. must have been written by people with the prose The important thing is the gathering at the beginning equivalent of cloth ears. I gather that they are more of the school day which unites the school and does not correct translations of the Hebrew, but compared with divide it. the King James version, I would not allow any child to read them. Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords— I have no difficulty whatsoever in our children knowing about religion, but I insist that this has nothing to do with religious education. I want people Lord Griffiths of Burry Port: My Lords, I confess to know that there are many religions. Indeed, speaking myself to be a little confused that the exigencies of the as an atheist, I think that the more religions they know arrangements of this Room have led to my sitting on about, in my view, the less likely they will be to believe the government side, but I will do my very best to use that any of them can be true, because how can you this to illustrate the point that, in a perfect world, have so many if they are all true? Not long ago, the people can sit anywhere and have decently held points Chief Rabbi made the terrible mistake of saying, of view without being called nonsensical for them. “Of course, we have different religions, but we all I also want to say to the noble Baroness, Lady worship the same God”. The Orthodox Jewish rabbis Flather, that I will make it my resolution to work as said, “No, we don’t”, and the Chief Rabbi—mistakenly, hard as I possibly can to show the other face of in my opinion—withdrew his remark. Methodism for as long as we know each other. In response to my noble friend Lord Touhig—I must say Therefore, the question is not one of religion; it has that he is my noble friend, although he is sitting nothing to do with whether you are a believer. I opposite me—I just want to mention that, although reiterate my point that I am not seeking to persuade the first line of the hymn that he sang at the Baptist those of you who are believers that you should not Sunday school anniversary is “Jesus wants me for a be—that is your choice—but the act of assembly in sunbeam”, I happen to know that its last line is, school, which is vital to the unity and whole atmosphere of the school, should be conducted on a totally non- “You in your small corner, and I in mine”, religious basis. which is pretty much what this debate seems to be turning out to be like. I would go further. My view is that the assembly This is a terribly important debate and the points of should be conducted largely by the pupils, not by the view that I have been hearing are necessary and are to head teacher or other teachers. To give an example, if be engaged with, but I just feel uncertain that they sit it were my choice, every day I would have one of the comfortably within the scope of this Bill. I feel that pupils talking about some great figure in the world, this proposal would take a stance against the historic their courage and what they achieved, such as Aung position. Let us remind ourselves that the 1944 Act, San Suu Kyi or the woman who is being threatened which brought this collective worship idea into being, with being stoned to death by the Iranians for sticking was really an attempt to bring together the provision up for what she thought was right. Pupils in schools of schools by a variety of bodies, most of which were could choose those great figures, and that is exactly Christian. It is still the case that the Church of England the atmosphere that I would want to develop—plus has a significant stake in secondary education and a the bit about someone telling the school that the first predominant stake in primary education. Therefore, 11 lost at cricket yet again, and so on, which was we are talking really about history and culture—this is certainly my experience of school assembly. who we are and this is our identity—and I do not at all As my noble friend Lady Massey brought to our want to discount other religions or other points of attention, the whole point of the gathering is that view. people meet together for the sake of producing a I listened to what was said by the noble Lord, decent spirit in the school in which religion should although apparently I am not being listened to myself, have no part to play, other than that people should be but I just feel that the demonising of collective acts of aware of other people’s multiplicity of opinions and worship is not consistent with my experience of actually views. I would have no objection if, one day, one of the performing them. In the hundreds of different kinds pupils who spoke decided that their address would be of school where I have led assemblies all over the to say why they were a Christian, a Jew or a Muslim, world, I can promise you—perhaps I should not promise, but they would be saying it only as a contribution to as there are bishops here—that, in any school where I general discussion not as a formal religious matter. have been a governor or led a school assembly, I have Times have changed. We need to know that the never met antagonism, objection or dissent about world is full of different people. When I went to what is being offered. school, I did not know that there were any blacks In the East End of London, one of the two schools around at all. There were no blacks to be seen in any of for which I have responsibility attracts 60 per cent of the schools where I was. I was happy, when my children its pupils from a Bengali population. People send their GC 381 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 382 girls to the school because it has a religious basis and what we have failed to do with much of the curriculum. they want the structures that go with that; there is no There are a variety of alternative ways of engaging the proselytising and, if there were, the people doing it emotions of young people and, for some, religious would be on the carpet. In the boys school where I worship in the community is one. Therefore, I would lead collective acts of worship, I am conscious of the be very reluctant to get my tanks lined up and say, range of religions and I suppose that there are people “Shoot it out of the Bill now”. If, as a matter of of no religion. That does not worry me in the slightest. evolution, assembly is withering on the vine—which, I We can conjure up an idea, we can play with a thought believe, is the reality—alternatives will, in an evolutionary and we can ground that thought in the traditional way, begin to emerge, and that would seem a wholly religious position, indicate that there are other ways of satisfactory way of changing the situation in our schools. looking at it and then call for a silence—which is what However, without further discussion and without a I do—during which people can think their own thoughts further clear picture of the alternative, I would not according to their own inner light. There are ways of want to support the amendment. doing these things without us getting into this silly antagonistic position. Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, I think that my In response to my noble friend Lady Massey, who noble friend Lord Griffiths, who is temporarily sitting was my mentor in bringing me into the House of on the other side, is very disarming but I disagree with Lords—she wanted a religious person to see if it was him about the relevance of these amendments. I am all right, but now that we are sitting on opposite sides I sure that many people in this Room and outside share am not so sure about that—I just feel honestly that we the view that a moral and spiritual dimension to are making more of this than needs to be made. It is school life is essential. I personally think that it is not a problem in the experience of the schools that I essential for school students to join in a morally and know about, and I know about lots and lots of schools. spiritually uplifting act every day. The problem is that, Let us have the debate another day. If a consensus if it is a Christian act, quite a lot of children are not emerges from a debate dedicated to this subject, then Christian and some are not of that particular sect of let us see what we have to do about that, but piggy-backing Christianity. Those children are deprived. When I the subject on this Bill seems to me to be inappropriate. went to school, the children who were withdrawn sat outside, as has been said, and I do not think that that is what school is about. 4.30 pm Of course, I have absolutely no objection to children Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I am learning about Christianity. It is one of our glorious very pleased that I gave way to the noble Lord, Lord traditions which I do not happen to share but, like my Griffiths. It was a humane contribution to a discussion noble friend, I am very glad to have known the King that was otherwise beginning to polarise. I do not have James Bible and, for that matter, the Bible of Tyndale. interests to declare of the kind that others have declared. I would have no objection at all to my children I am not a card-carrying member of any secular experiencing a Christian religious ceremony or a collective society or indeed of any church or religion. I suppose act referring to the Christian approach. What I really that my interest, if I have one, is that I was once a think we should move away from, for all the reasons professor of philosophy of religion. In that context, I which have been given and which I shall not repeat, is learnt that there are all sorts of philosophies, and on a sectarian approach to morality and spirituality. We the whole the one that I liked best was that of David really cannot allow our children in this wide, diverse Hume, who taught me a bit of pragmatism. For example, world to think that only one way to truth is the right I have discovered pragmatically that if you want a seat way, that only one morality is right and that only one that allows you to take part at Question Time and you spirituality has any validity. Therefore, I am extremely are a Cross-Bencher, you have little choice but to happy to support the spirit behind all these amendments. attend worship in the main Chamber. It is between me and my conscience what I am thinking when all that is Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I think I should try to sit going on, although I am not quite as clear in my mind in a different seat in future, because every time I sit as perhaps some of my noble friends are. here I seem to be last or near-enough last in the In this context, the reality—and this has been batting order in trying to speak. Last Wednesday, happening for a number of years—is that in many there was trouble and the Government Whip intervened schools assembly is withering on the vine. In other and effectively stopped me from speaking—despite schools, the assembly is very important because they the fact that I was unaware of how to work these have either a statutory or at least a common religious things. Fifteen speakers were in favour of that type of character that is accepted in the community. There, amendment. I was against it and was frozen out. I do the assembly fits very well into the day’s activities and, not know how we find a way of trying to balance by and large, the parents respect it. things. I should also like to speak. I am not going to I reiterate an additional point that the noble Lord, declare an interest, because I take exception to folk Lord Griffiths, drew out. If you were to replace assembly expecting me to declare my religion before I speak on completely by fiat and say that assemblies must not an issue. If you consider my Sundays, you might get take place, that would be a rational position that I a clue. would understand, although I would not share it. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, rhymed off a lot of However, if you do that, you need properly to sort out substantial figures that seemed to prove that religion the alternative. The one thing that assembly does is to in schools was dying, that all sorts of statistics showed engage the emotions of young people, which, sadly, is that folk did not bother and that we were heading for GC 383 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 384

[LORD MCAVOY] about academic learning. Learning is moral, spiritual an atheist or a non-believing society. If that is the case, and so on. I was trying to say that schools are not why is there enthusiasm for coming forward with churches, temples, mosques or synagogues. amendments such as this that seem to flog a dead horse? I do not understand, if Christianity and religious belief are dying on their feet anyway, why we are Lord McAvoy: The Catholic schools that I know, trying to bury them. and which I have the most experience of, incorporate all the various subjects that my noble friend mentions. At the risk of being controversial, what we have There is nothing wrong with that. I go and speak to here is aggressive secularism. This is not a contribution modern studies classes and I assure my noble friend to a debate based on tolerance. I agree with my noble that their opinions are extremely varied. These schools friend Lord Peston that tolerance should surely be at encompass everything. They get involved in fair trade, the heart of any discussion such as this. I would never mission work for Africa and raising funds. They do dream of stopping someone else from practising their terrific work based on their faith and it should not be religion or proselytising, as the noble Lord, Lord mocked. I believe that if people choose to say that Griffiths, said. People are people and will do their own school, home and church are a trinity, they are entitled thing. to do so. I very much oppose the amendments. I can tell noble Lords that there is confusion and wonder among many in faith communities who have Baroness Garden of Frognal: Before we continue, I chosen to go to and use these schools. My noble friend should say that this has been a fascinating debate and Lady Whitaker was definite about the situation that I rather sense that we could carry on all afternoon, but she would choose for her children. That is absolutely I am rather taken with the idea of the noble Lord, fine, but the people who send their children to faith Lord Griffiths, that we should try to schedule a debate schools for collective worship and gatherings are surely on this topic where we would have more time to entitled to have their point of view. There is a feeling discuss it. In the context of scrutinising amendments that I am picking up— in Committee, though, I wonder whether we might just hear from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Baroness Whitaker: I am sorry to interrupt the Lichfield who was trying to get in and then move on to noble Lord, but since he mentioned my name, I should the opposition winders. Would that be acceptable to say that I do not think that any of these amendments the Committee? would prevent parents from choosing a religious school Noble Lords: No. that would have a religious act of collective worship. Baroness Garden of Frognal: No? Lord McAvoy: That is technically true, but it forces them to accept assumptions—I shall not be provocative The Earl of Listowel: If I may just interject, strong and say that they are based on hostility—that are arguments are being made on all sides but I would like certainly not sympathetic towards school gatherings to make one assertion. It is important for children to based on Christian beliefs. This should surely be about have some experience of the numinous, of the higher tolerance. If people want to change the way that power, of the spiritual life, if you like, in their childhoods, things are, surely they should go about convincing but particularly for some children who have a lot of people of that. I really do not understand, because no chaos in their lives. Many young boys, for instance, one in this Room has a mandate to talk about removing growing up without fathers, children whose parents the basis of collective worship within schools. I should are separating or children whose parents suffer from certainly like to see a politician standing for election issues around substance misuse do not have a strong along the corridor try to advocate some of the beliefs sense of belonging to a family. As they go through life, and authoritarian elements in these proposals. a few of them may enter the care system. Often they move on from there with very little support. A significant I appeal to colleagues: if you want to change things, number of those who do not have that support from a try to persuade; do not dictate or try to lay down such family may end up falling by the wayside in various conditions from on high. Whether colleagues like it or ways. For some of them to be able to look back at an not those are the unforeseen consequences. I agree experience in their childhood when they felt at one with my noble friend Lord Touhig that it is not the with a group and had some contact with a god or a intention of noble Lords to be hostile to faith schools numinous sense of something beyond themselves, for on the basis of collective worship. a few of them in their adult life that may be an I shall say another couple of quick sentences in a important experience where they can look for their mood of co-operation. My noble friend Lady Massey own redemption and find somewhere that they can said that schools are places of learning only. Among a belong, though one means or another. whole host of things, I accept that. However, the What concerned me in what the right reverend religion that I belong to—the Roman Catholic faith— Prelate said is that we are not really discussing whether believes in the trinity: home, school and church. We do there will be one kind of spiritual practice in schools not believe that schools are there for learning only. or another. I think that he was saying that if we go along with the amendments, his concern might be that Baroness Massey of Darwen: In fact, I did not say in many schools it will start withering on the vine and that schools are places of learning only. I would support there will simply be a formal gathering but not with schools that have a wide learning experience, such as this spiritual, reflective sense of a contact with a culture, the arts, sport and so on. Learning is not just higher power. That may be what he was driving at. GC 385 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 386

Lord Touhig: May I just respond to the Minister? The Lord Bishop of Lichfield: My Lords, I thank The Government are quite wrong. This is the second those who set out so clearly the reasons against religious occasion on which they have sought to curtail debate, assemblies for schools. I shall go on thinking about but that is not their role. Members are entitled to take those reasons and some of my best answers will come part in the debate as widely as they need to or want to. in the bath tonight. The Government should stop trying to intervene and Several noble Lords have said that religious assemblies control the timetable of this Committee by telling are way out of date. I am not so sure about that. I have people not to speak. got to leave my duties here on Wednesday because one of our home regiments is coming back. Apparently, when they come back from Afghanistan and the local Lord Lucas: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord population want to greet them, the first thing they is misinterpreting the rules of Committee. The Minister think should be on the agenda is a religious service. So speaking does not curtail debate in any way; it merely there we have the youth of today opting for a religious gives us a bit of information on which we can base our and corporate act of worship in order to express what further debate. they want to say. I cannot help feeling also that the surroundings of Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, we need not this Room have something to tell us about our own just information, but a little guidance as this Committee history. Is what we see around us all out of date? I do stage could go on and on. I think that we all accept not think so. It has been a constant feature that people that. have suggested that religious assemblies for children The problem with my noble friend’s comment just are divisive and divide up communities. That is not my now is that, alas, as we heard earlier, one or two people experience at all. On the contrary, I see constant have personal experiences of finding the whole business cohesion in welcoming people of all different ethnic of sitting outside an assembly or religious occurrence groups and faith groups and managing that. I often go in a school very disturbing. This is something that we to assemblies where children are given a major part in all need to take into account. This issue has gone on running it. It is a regular part of our diet for someone and on. I was remembering, as the noble Lord, Lord to get up and say “I am a Jew; this is how it happened Peston, was on his feet, having these arguments in the to me” and so on. Muslims, Buddhists and other Communications Committee. However, we managed parents are usually very keen to have their children eventually to come to a satisfactory conclusion and we come to assembly. The assertion that lots of children moved on. sit outside is just not true. I remember a couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses but, apart from them, there are very few people who sit out. 4.45 pm We are agreed on both sides of this debate that I declare an interest as a newly appointed vice-president assembly is a good thing. What divides us is whether it of WATCH. As all of you will know, my interest is should be substantially Christian. My own opinion is likely to be in seeing more women priests and women that the great advantage of a religious assembly is that bishops around the place—that is what WATCH stands it gives us the opportunity to give worth to worship for. that goes further than the latest fad from the head or There is a hugely important role for assemblies, from the local authority, that gives not just a sense of whatever you call them. Think of the BBC and the the numinous but of someone beyond our daily matters way it puts over all the different religions and none. who can guide us with regard to the values that our That is what we need to see not least because—this is society should be built upon. I do not think any age is my one point that I will make and then sit down—it is too young to start that struggle of saying, “If we want crucial that we all learn about all religions and none, a cohesive community, if we want tolerance, truth and and that we all realise how wide a grouping of religions honesty, where do those values come from?” I think there have been and still are in this world. Somehow many of us in this Room would say they come from they have all got to learn to live with one another. The God, and that the authorised version of the Bible is more that we can educate children to understand not only so impressive because of the style of the other people’s points of view and other people’s ways writing but also because of the content. of sorting things out or “reification”—a word which I There is much more to say but I am against those must use as I have found it fascinating ever since who say that Christianity is just one of our religions. It going, rather late, to study sociology at LSE; I thought occupies a more important place in our constitution that religion would not come in at all there, but not a than that. If we are having debates about the constitution, bit of it—which means explaining that part outside of we should not just nibble away at one side of it yourself which you cannot explain. So it is even necessary without seeing that it affects all the others as well. in social science. We need such things not least to try to reduce the Lord Quirk: My Lords, if there is one thing that is number of wars as a result of misunderstandings clearly agreed in the Committee this afternoon, it is between races and between religions. We are changing, the value of the assembly as a way of showing that the but do we really want to go this far to make something school has a sense of community. There is much good completely different, with all the unintended consequences in the amendments put forward, but at the same time which the right reverend Prelate has mentioned and we should not forget that church schools happen to be which my noble friend mentioned just now? There are extremely popular with parents, even those with no a lot of unintended consequences from changing the law. religion or religious beliefs of their own. Church schools GC 387 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 388

[LORD QUIRK] Lord Peston: It is just that I do not want his speech are not popular by accident. If we wish to move from to be ruined by the fact that we may need to march out the current position, let us say in Northern Ireland, during the middle of it. with mutually hostile but strongly religious schools, to something of the idealism put forward by the noble Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, I would have Baroness, Lady Massey, and the noble Lord, Lord finished it by now if the noble Lord had not intervened. Peston, we need to think very carefully about what we will put into this mix of idealism and discipline that There is an extremely wide range of views on this appears equally in these amendments. important issue, as I knew there would be, and, like others, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Avebury for raising it. In considering the current system and Baroness Flather: My Lords, church schools are the way forward, the Government’s guiding principle extremely popular, especially with ethnic minority parents. is that the arrangements for collective worship should They feel that there is more discipline and they are be flexible and fair to pupils and parents as well as better controlled, and there is usually a uniform. Most manageable for schools. The requirement for a broadly ethnic minority parents like that. I am not sure it is Christian collective worship is a long-standing one, because of collective worship and we should bear that which I think was the point made by the noble Lord, in mind very carefully.If we take out the word “worship”, Lord Touhig, who referred to it as our Christian we have had things about spirituality and about Christian heritage. A similar point was made by the noble Lord, heritage. It is very important that children from anywhere Lord Griffiths of Burry Port. and everywhere learn about the Christian heritage of If I may declare an interest, as other noble Lords this country. That is fundamental: if we do not know have, I am the son of a Methodist mother, who herself anything about the Christian heritage of Britain we do had to go to chapel three times a day on Sunday, and not know about Britain. of a father who was a chorister at Westminster Abbey I would also like to point out that this is the most and so went to church almost every day for six years. irreligious country I have ever come across. The people As a result of that, we had no church at all in our in this country are not religious and they do not even household because I think that my parents suffered pretend to be religious. If collective worship is your from overload. However, as a kind of historian—or a idea to bring up a generation that will be more religious, historian manqué—I think that it is difficult to write it will not, because it has not done so. As far as the out the role that the church has played in education worship in the Chamber is concerned, I agree with the and in the history of our country for many hundreds noble Lord, Lord Peston. I went once; I could not go of years— again, simply because it is so ludicrous. Turning your back and showing your bottom is just not on. I would never do that. I do not mind a few words thanking The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): God et cetera—that is fine. I have no problem with any With great respect to the Minister, the noble Lord, religion, or no religion. I was brought up to believe Lord Peston, was entirely right, as a Division has now that all faiths, all religions, are pathways to God and been called. The Grand Committee stands adjourned they are equally valid in that sense. I have no problem for 10 minutes, to resume again at 5.10 pm. with that, but there has to be a limit to how we deal with these issues. Certainly there are old people here 4.57 pm and people of a generation who are used to that kind of thing. For me, it was very strange indeed. We talked Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. about peer pressure. Peer pressure works here as well. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, that, during 5.09 pm the years that I spent in voluntary work in Maidenhead, The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Countess my closest allies were the Methodists and I have long of Mar): My Lords, I remind noble Lords that there is since learned how good they are. I now judge people a problem if mobile phones are switched to silent in not according to what I learned once but as they that they still interfere with the sound system. Therefore, present themselves to me. However, I would say that can noble Lords please ensure that their mobiles are the Catholics suppress women, and hundreds of thousands switched completely off so that we do not get a buzzing of women die in childbirth. He may not like that, but I noise? I gather that the Minister was in the process of do not care. winding up. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): Behind me is a portrait Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, I cannot apologise of the judgment of Daniel. Actually, I think that it to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, for my hubris but I should be a portrait of the judgment of Solomon, shall do so later. given today’s debate— The Government believe that this educational Lord Peston: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. experience makes a valuable contribution to the spiritual I am very much looking forward to hearing his speech, and moral development of all young people and not but the monitor suggests that we are possibly within just for those who attend religious schools. That view seconds of voting in the Chamber. is shared by many parents, who still expect their children to understand the meaning of worship as well as to Lord Hill of Oareford: I am going to speak very have an opportunity to consider spiritual and moral quickly. issues, and to explore their own beliefs, whether or not GC 389 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 390 they hold a faith. The right reverend Prelate referred Lord Avebury: I am in the middle of a sentence. I to some statistics published in September 2010 by the shall give way when I finish it. How can we have Office for National Statistics, which suggested that tolerance when children are separated into different 71 per cent of the population still identify themselves kinds of religions, even if, as the Minister has just said, as being Christian. there can be a determination that allows the act of In response to a specific question that I was asked, worship to be of a non-Christian character, which just academies are covered by the provisions on collective means that it will presumably be of a Muslim or worship. Parents can withdraw their children from Hindu character, thus separating the children who collective worship if they wish to do so, and sixth-form belong to those schools even further from their pupils also have this right. The Government consider contemporaries in the mainstream Church of England it appropriate for parents to exercise these rights on schools? behalf of children of compulsory school age, and we respect the right of parents to have their children Lord McAvoy: I am grateful to the noble Lord for educated according to their religious and philosophical giving way. Will his tolerance for other people’s points beliefs. We would expect that, in exercising this right, of view stretch to engaging with schools that have the parents would take account of their children’s views. type of collective activity to which he is objecting? The law also requires schools to provide an educational Would he care to consult them and get some measure experience of collective worship that is relevant to all of how they feel before we get to Report? pupils, no matter what their background or beliefs, ensuring that the collective worship is presented in a way that benefits the spiritual, moral and cultural Lord Avebury: I was going to come on to the development of all children and young people. In question of who is entitled to make this decision. I do addition, under Section 394 of the Education Act 1996, not believe that there can be, as I think the noble Lord schools have the freedom to apply for a determination said, a diktat from on top, which is what we have in the from the local authority if they judge that it is not Education Act 1944. This should be a matter for the appropriate for the requirement for collective worship schools themselves, and they should consult the parents to be of a broadly Christian nature to apply to their and the pupils. If you want localism, if you want the school. decision to be made freely by the people who are Therefore, overall we believe that the current system intimately concerned with it, the pupils and their of collective worship is sufficiently flexible and fair in parents, this is the right way to do it. making provision for a variety of different perspectives and attitudes to collective worship without imposing 5.15 pm unnecessarily complex arrangements on schools. I I also detect some division among us as to whether understand the range of views expressed but I intend it is indeed the parents or the children who are entitled to take the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of to make the decision. I pointed out that the JCHR has Burry Port, that this is an important issue to which we ruled on this. In the Gillick case, it decided that a child may need to return in a different context. With that, I was competent to make very important decisions ask my noble friend Lord Avebury whether he feels concerning her treatment, particularly whether or not able to withdraw his amendment. she should be entitled to ask for contraceptive treatment at below sixth-form age. The committee’s age of Gillick Lord Avebury: My Lords, we certainly will have to competence was likely to have been 15. However, as I return to this matter in a different context but we will argued, any child who says that this is his or her belief have to do so on Report, because we are not going to and that he or she does not wish to take part in the act resolve it here this afternoon. As your Lordships will of worship should be deemed competent to do so. understand, we cannot have a Division on it. However, Therefore, no age is stipulated in my amendment. there are certain things on which we can agree. First, We are not going to resolve this today, as I said at all noble Lords who have spoken have said that an the beginning. However, I would say to the right assembly is a good idea—that all the pupils should reverend Prelate that this is going to happen in the come together as one and partake of a proceeding that end. If I may quote St Augustine: has a moral and ethical dimension. Even the noble “Petant aut not petant, venire habet”— Lord, Lord Peston, would go as far as that, although whether they like it or not, it is going to come. Sooner he might not wish to add the word “spiritual”. or later we shall get rid of the act of compulsory I point out that some among us are atheists—that worship in schools, and the sooner the better. Meanwhile, is, we do not believe in a supreme being who is I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. directing our procedures and telling us how to behave—but we believe that there are moral and ethical codes that should be common to the whole of humanity and we Amendment 92 withdrawn. want them to be taught in assembly. We want children to have, for example, the virtue of tolerance, which has Amendments 93 and 94 not moved. been mentioned. How can we have tolerance when children are separated into different kinds of religions, Amendment 95 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled even if, as the Minister has just said— List.

Lord McAvoy: My Lords— Amendments 96 to 98 not moved. GC 391 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 392

Clause 30 : Duties to co-operate with local authority we had a very useful meeting where we were able to express our thoughts fully and the Minister was responsive to our concerns. As the noble Lord, Lord Rix, said, Amendment 99 the Minister has since written to me and indicated that Moved by Lord Rix he has given the matter further thought. The letter is written in what I would call careful language, perhaps 99: Clause 30, page 32, line 17, at end insert— even a touch cautious, and therefore no bunting is to “( ) Where a child has a special educational need, a school be unrolled as yet. However, I am sure that I speak on must demonstrate co-operation with other agencies to ensure the child’s needs are supported holistically.” behalf of the group when I say that we are extremely grateful for the Minister’s thoughtful approach to this and we look forward to returning to this on Report. Lord Rix: My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendment 99, tabled in my name, regarding issues around the duty for schools to co-operate with other agencies. I also Baroness Walmsley: I point out to the Committee thank the Minister for the opportunity he gave me that my noble friend Lord Storey has withdrawn nearly four weeks ago now to meet him and to summon Amendment 100ZA, but for some reason that has not his officials to discuss this matter in more detail, and appeared on the Marshalled List. That amendment is for the letter that he subsequently sent me on the issue probably the reason for the reference in the Minister’s which, thanks to the vagaries of the post, arrived letter on the Health and Social Care Bill. It related to 14 days after it was posted. Tempus fugit but apparently the possibility that the new welfare public health boards not for the postal service. might be more appropriate organisations for schools The co-ordination of services for children with to co-operate with when it comes to children’s well-being. SEN, including those with a learning disability, is an We have been persuaded that it might be more appropriate approach for which the disability sector has been to lay that amendment to the health and Social Care calling for a number of years. Co-ordinated support is Bill when it comes to us. a holistic approach that ensures that disabled children That future legislation, besides the SEN Green and their families are at the centre of the services that Paper that will undoubtedly lead to further legislation, are aimed at improving their access to a full and is one of the reasons why it was suggested to the meaningful life. The amendment tabled in my name Minister that the Government might consider waiting aims to retain the duty on schools to co-operate with and not making this change to legislation just at this external agencies, which the Bill in its current form moment, but might instead leave the potential for that seeks to remove. Even the Government’s own SEN change until we know what is coming in the legislation Green Paper refers to the importance of multiagency that follows the SEN and disability Green Paper and working and the role of partnerships in delivering the what will transpire in the Health and Social Care Bill. best outcomes for disabled children. By removing the It makes sense for the Government to keep our powder duty to co-operate, I fear that the Government are dry for the time being and postpone any decision sending out completely the wrong message, and I about removing the duty to co-operate until we see encourage Ministers to return to the aspirations as set what legislation is coming down the track and how out in the Green Paper. that might be affected by this idea. However, in his recent letter, to which I referred earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Hill, advised me that new Lord Elton: My Lords, this might be the right inspection requirements for schools will be explicit moment to ask the Minister to tell me in his reply—or, about disability and SEN. As these inspectors will more probably, in correspondence afterwards—what include the, progress has been made in implementing the requirements “leadership and management of the school”, to identify children suffering from dyslexia and that the Government hope that schools will fully consider range of specific difficulties? They were legislated for their responsibilities when working with external partners in the previous Parliament but that has not necessarily and other agencies in the interests of the children as yet been implemented. I would be grateful if he concerned. Perhaps to pre-empt all this, there was a could let me know in advance of Report. meeting last Thursday with the noble Lords, Lord Laming, Lord Low and Lord Touhig, and the noble Lord Touhig: My Lords, we had a good debate on Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Benjamin, to this issue on the second day of Committee. I do not which I was invited but was unable to attend because I intend to detain the Committee very long, other than had to go to hospital. to say that the Minister has been extremely helpful The noble Lord, Lord Laming, has received a letter and thoughtful. We had a good discussion. from the Minister. I hope he does mind if I quote the One point came out in that discussion but not when words: we debated this in Committee, although it is mentioned “I said that I would need to consult Ministerial colleagues, but in the Minister’s letter. He says that he has various confirmed that I intended to return to this matter at Report Stage”. things to consider: Therefore, although of course I am very happy to “I said that the Government needed to be mindful that individual listen to others, at the same time when the time comes head teachers and college principals and their collective professional I shall withdraw my amendment. associations had all expressed support for the proposals in the clauses”. Lord Laming: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord He indicated in our meeting with him that there had Rix, has indicated, the Minister generously met a been objections around the country to the duty to group of us last week. I think we would all agree that co-operate. I have not come across that, and I do not GC 393 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 394 know whether other noble Lords have. We were surprised I will have to follow up the point made by my noble by it, so perhaps we might look at this again on friend Lord Elton and write to him. Ditto, I am not Report. sure about the position in Finland, but we will look The Minister was certainly in a listening mode and into it. said to us that most schools are now co-operating. Again, I am grateful to noble Lords for meeting me. That is a good thing, but the current legislation ensures I have undertaken to discuss this further, which will that those which do not co-operate are obliged to do probably be in September but before the Report stage. so. I do not remember who made the comment when On that basis, I hope we can move forward. we debated this issue on the second day in Committee, but they said that this is one bit of bureaucracy that Lord Rix: My Lords, I am very grateful to everyone we should welcome. I am sure that the Government who has spoken. I hope that the Minister can write to will listen to us, and I do not doubt that the Minister me during the Recess because I am going away in the will reach the right decision when we get to Report . first week in September, when the Bill might well reach its Report stage. I should certainly like to be able to discuss this with the Minister or with my colleagues, if The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, it is encouraging to that is possible, before we actually reach the next stage. hear that the Government are approaching this in However, with the Minister’s assurances ringing in my such a careful and thoughtful way. The Secretary of mind, I am happy to withdraw the amendment. State has made a commitment to look at education systems around the world in order to learn from best Amendment 99 withdrawn. practice. I understand that in Finland it is normal for social services and the education system to work in Amendment 100 not moved. close partnership with each other. Perhaps, if it is easily accessible, the Minister might like to provide Clause 30 agreed. some information about this for the Committee, or at least look to see whether what they do in Finland is Amendment 100ZA not moved. relevant to what might work best in this country. Clauses 31 to 33 agreed. Baroness Hughes of Stretford: My Lords, I rise briefly to thank the noble Lord, Lord Laming, my 5.30 pm noble friend and other noble Lords for taking this matter up with the Minister on behalf of almost Clause 34 : Duties in relation to school admissions everyone in the Committee after the earlier debate on this subject. It is clear that they were speaking for all of us. On the withdrawn amendments of the noble Amendment 100A Baroness, Lady Walmsley, I think that the proposal is Moved by Baroness Hughes of Stretford a good idea and may well sit better in the health Bill when it finally comes. However, the duty on schools to 100A: Clause 34, page 33, line 15, at end insert— co-operate would require them not only to co-ordinate “( ) In section 84 (code for schools admissions) in subsection (2) with the local health authority at the strategic level, after “other matters”insert “which ensure fair access to opportunity but also in relation to individual children and the for education”.” packages that they need, whereas the well-being boards will look at services more broadly.The duty to co-operate Baroness Hughes of Stretford: My Lords, I stand to is still necessary in order for schools to work with move Amendment 100A and speak also to Amendments other agencies in relation to individual children. 101A, 103ZA and 107B in my name. I thank the Minister for his willingness to discuss This is a very important clause in this Bill and it this issue. All noble Lords in the Committee believe proposes to introduce a number of changes to admissions. that were it in his gift, I am sure that the matter would I am sure we all agree that admissions and the way not be proceeded with at this time, but obviously and children are admitted to school really matters. It matters rightly the Secretary of State has to make the decision. in ensuring that everyone gets fair access to a good I therefore ask the Minister to give us an assurance education and that matters in terms of helping to that we will be clear about the Government’s intentions improve social mobility and ensuring every child gets before we get to Report. Clearly, if the Government the best life chances, regardless of their background. decide to proceed with this, Members of the Committee The international evidence upon which the Government will want to think about their approach at the next stage. are drawing to support their moves to give schools much greater freedom also makes clear that, while those freedoms can improve levels of attainment in Lord Hill of Oareford: I will be brief. I can say yes schools, they only do so in the context of a system that to the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes. We will be clear is both accountable and also in systems which have an before we reach Report; we need to be. I have given inclusive admissions system, meaning that the schools that undertaking to the noble Lords I met with and I have a comprehensive intake across the ability range. am happy to repeat it. I am grateful to the noble That is the balance of the international evidence—not Lords, Lord Rix and Lord Laming, for what they said. freedoms on their own but freedoms in the context of I was glad to have the chance to meet them and we will accountability and inclusive, comprehensive intakes meet again—I will not finish that line. for all schools. GC 395 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 396

The Secretary of State is making a number of It may be a good thing to give more freedom and changes with this clause which in our view add up to a autonomy to schools but, as I said earlier, with that significant weakening of the admissions system from freedom should come accountability and safeguards. the point of view of parents and children. This causes Without those safeguards there is a risk that highly me concern that it will be harder for parents and localised admission arrangements could result in what children to get fair treatment. First, the clause removes Barnardo’s has described as “selection and segregation”, the powers of the adjudicator to direct a school or with some children missing out unfairly. local authority to change its admissions practices when Last year’s schools White Paper supported a local the adjudicator has judged that they are in breach of authority role to ensure fair access but, as this clause the admissions code. Secondly, it removes the power would get rid of the duty to have an admissions of the adjudicator to choose to look more widely at forum, the Government are abolishing the mechanism admission practices of a school or local authority to enable local authorities to do that. These amendments when the adjudicator receives a specific complaint. would ensure that the Secretary of State had an Thirdly, the clause abolishes the local admissions forums overarching duty to ensure fair access to education which bring parents and others together to resolve and training. issues locally. That prevents all complaints from going The new draft admissions code uses the word “fair” to the adjudicator. 26 times, including the line: I shall come on to the amendments in relation to “The purpose of the Code is to ensure that all school places the adjudicator in a moment. First, I want to concentrate for maintained schools … and Academies are allocated and on ensuring that admissions are fair in the first place—that offered in an open and fair way”. is that children have fair access to good education and It is good to note the Government’s commitment—at training, whatever their background. Amendments 100A least, on paper—to drive fairness, but if that is the and 107B are similar in effect to Amendment 103 in case it would surely follow that the Government would the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley be keen to support these amendments, which give the and Lady Brinton, and would place a duty on the Secretary of State a statutory duty to ensure that Secretary of State to ensure fair access through the admissions are fair. admissions code. Amendments 103ZA and 101A would respectively We want all children to be able to access schools reinstate the power of the adjudicator to direct admissions that are good or better. Schools that are highly performing authorities—that is, academies and local authorities—to are often very popular and it is crucial to ensure that change their policies where they had been found not to access is fair so that children from all backgrounds can be in compliance with the admissions code. Amendment benefit. With the fragmentation of the education system 103ZA goes further. It would require the adjudicator that will follow if this Bill becomes law in its entirety, it to put the views of parents at the heart of his decisions is more important than ever before that systems are in in exercising his powers. place to ensure that those admissions are fair. Currently, as I said, the school adjudicator can Where a school is an academy, it is its own admissions specify appropriate modifications to the admissions authority, setting its own admissions arrangements, arrangements, whether they arise from objections or hopefully within the admissions code. For community not. He can protect those modifications from being and voluntary controlled schools, the local authority changed back for up to three years, and the admissions is the admissions authority. Given the Government’s authority in question can be made to comply with the direction of travel towards making ever-increasing adjudicator’s decisions forthwith. Clause 34 would numbers of schools into academies—already more remove all those powers. At the moment, the school than a fifth of secondary schools are academies—it is adjudicator steps in to challenge and remedy non- not hard to envisage a future in which most or all of compliance with the admissions code. Surely, if the our 20,000 schools are their own individual admissions Government are serious about fairness in admissions, authorities. a control needs to be in place to ensure that, where I cannot get beyond thinking that this means that admissions criteria or processes are not fair, they are parents and pupils will face a baffling and utterly identified and corrected. There is a need to ensure that opaque situation, with all the schools in their area somebody is responsible for seeing that they are corrected operating different admissions criteria. Parents who and it should not simply be left, as I feel sure the are most articulate or who know the system can perhaps Government will argue in a moment, to schools to do work it to their advantage; others—for example, those that of their own volition without any need for any for whom English is not a first language or who are monitoring. Last year, 92 per cent of complaints heard less engaged in the education system—will lose out. by the school adjudicator were from parents. Where When the Minister replies, can he please explain in these complaints were upheld, the school adjudicator detail how a parent would navigate such a system? could direct the admissions authority to change. As I Will not parents inevitably apply to as many schools as said, under the Bill that process will change. they can, and will not that in itself cause gridlock, In one sense, the Bill is also contradictory. On the with schools processing many more applications than one hand, it extends the right of parents of academy they have places? Will not parents be in limbo, with no pupils to go to the adjudicator and lets parents from one co-ordinating that process? I am informed that in anywhere—not just the school in question—to make a many local authorities this is already the case. Parents complaint. On the other hand, it removes the school whose children currently do not get into their preferred adjudicator’s powers to do anything to overturn choice of school are at a loss to know what to do and malpractice. Therefore, under the Bill more parents the local authority cannot do anything to help. can now complain to the school adjudicator but he or GC 397 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 398 she can do less as a result of the Bill. I just wonder whether there have been any appeals, or what the whether the Minister thinks that this will empower problems are? The whole system is not at all parent parents or do the reverse. friendly. It is not access friendly or social mobility Clause 34 also abolishes admissions forums—the friendly, given how important social mobility through local bodies made up of parents, local authorities and education is to my Government. schools—which oversee the admission arrangements What I want to do in Amendment 103A is give a in an area. I cannot see any valid reason for cutting reciprocal duty to the Secretary of State to take this parents out of that process of having some kind of say information from the chief adjudicator, who is reporting on the way that admissions are handled throughout an to Parliament, and act on it if he identifies trends of area. Parents will have nowhere to go except to the injustice happening, perhaps across the country. The school adjudicator, whose powers are being seriously difficulty with the proposed arrangements is that any diminished. I beg to move. adjudicator looks only at the appeals in his own area. Let us be clear that we are not talking about appeals from parents who did not get their child into a school; Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I have Amendment we are talking about appeals being made 12 months 103A in this group. What concerns me is that someone before parents even try to get their child into a school, should have oversight as to whether fair access is going and two years before the child goes there—or not, as on. I am most grateful to the Bill team for sending the case may be. These are appeals against the nature some notes about how the school admissions and of the arrangements. appeals code works and how the Bill seeks to change that. I was very exercised about the fact that, as the If the adjudicator can only look at arrangements in note states: his own local area, who is going to look at trends? For “School admission arrangements are set two school years example, an education provider may have a lot of before pupils enter the school by the schools’ admission authority, appeals against the admission arrangements in one in line with the Admissions Code”. part of the country, another lot in another part of the Of course, the authority must have consulted about country, and yet another lot in a third area. The those arrangements beforehand. That makes it very adjudicators in those three separate areas can only see difficult for parents. If they apply to several schools the problems brought to their attention in their own two years before their child moves schools, they then areas. Who is going to identify that there are trends of have to scrutinise the admissions arrangements of all injustice in that particular chain of education providers? the schools to which they apply in order to make sure It is important not just to have, as the Explanatory that they are happy with those admission arrangements. Notes tell us, a requirement on the chief adjudicator This is not the case just under the Bill, but is the case to report to Parliament each year. We need a duty on now, before the Bill goes through. The arrangements the Secretary of State to take the information and are very difficult for parents to navigate. ensure that the arrangements his department have in The note also points out that: place are providing fair access for children all over the “Parents, local authorities, other schools or the Secretary of country, no matter what sort of school they go to. State who have concerns about the admissions at a maintained school can ask the Office of the Schools Adjudicator … to investigate”. 5.45 pm I very much welcome the fact that this power is being Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I want to extended to the parents of children who want to go to speak to this group of amendments in part to avoid academies. However, the problem is that many local speaking in a clause stand part debate not only because authorities are not doing the job of scrutinising admission that is more efficient but because, I have to apologise arrangements terribly well. It is therefore left to parents to the Committee, I will need to leave in around to make the complaints and appeal. If all the schools 20 minutes in order to fulfil a speaking engagement. If in the area are academies, parents have to look at a I miss the Minister’s response, I apologise. I hope, whole lot of different sets of arrangements. nevertheless, that it is in order for me to make some The note that the Bill team kindly sent us points out comments. that: In many ways, I think that Clause 34 is possibly the “Local authorities will still be required to report annually on worst clause in the Bill. I know that there is some stiff local admissions”. competition for that accolade, but the issue of fair The Bill states that they do not have to report to the admissions is of vital importance. In passing, I want adjudicator, but they will have to report. Therefore, to thank Chris Waterman, who has done some excellent my first question to my noble friend is: to whom do work on and analysis of the issue for us. they have to report? It does not say in the note. The reason I say that fair admissions are very However, I have a clue here in the way that the note important is because I support diversity and more continues. It states: competition between schools. As moves are made to “The Chief Adjudicator will still be required to report to increase choice and accountability and thus to drive Parliament each year and, as now, base his findings on a range of sources, including having access to local authority reports from competition in that way, it is all the more important to their websites. The local authority reports will still focus on key ensure that admissions are fair and every child is given issues for local parents and others with an interest in access to an equal chance to attend the good schools so that, in local schools”. the end, parents are choosing schools and not the My question, therefore, is: does the chief adjudicator other way around. It is on that basis that I strongly or any parent just have to go to the website of the local support Amendments 100A, 102 and 103 because they authority to find out what the arrangements are and seek clarity on the overarching aim of fairness in GC 399 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 400 school admissions. They seek to improve the situation a sufficient priority for the admissions code to be presented in Clause 34, but in the end they will not fix consistently adhered to by every school and admissions the problem. The problem is that Clause 34 makes the authority. We know, through the work of the Sutton job of the adjudicator pretty toothless by taking his Trust, that even with the current tougher admissions powers away. regime in place at the moment schools still find covert Paragraph 168 of the Explanatory Notes makes the means to attract children who are more likely to position clear by stating: succeed and discourage those less likely to attain five “Subsection (3) restricts the powers of the school adjudicator. A* to C-grade GCSEs. It repeals section 88J of SSFA 1998 which requires schools The removal of subsection (4) of section 85A of the adjudicators, upon referral of a specific matter concerning a 1998 Act, under Clause 34(4) of the Bill, removes the maintained school’s admission arrangements, to consider whether policing of admissions and the requirement of local it would be appropriate for changes to be made to any aspect of those admission arrangements”. authorities to report to the schools adjudicator— Similarly, the notes in respect of subsection (4) state effectively, the prosecutor—all admissions arrangements. that it, I was interested in what the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, had to say about around where they would “removes the requirement under section 88P … for local authorities to provide to the adjudicator reports on admissions to schools in report to. It seems clear to me that, in the same way their area”. that the police get in touch with the CPS if an offence Why do I think it is so bad to remove these two might need prosecuting, local authorities should report powers? As my noble friend Lady Hughes said, every to the school adjudicator. school is potentially an academy so every school is The removal provided for in Clause 34(3) removes potentially its own admissions authority. That means the teeth from the adjudicator making changes to a confusion of the arrangements faced by parents. The admissions arrangements to ensure compliance. It is noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, made a strong argument obvious to me that if we are to have a fair admissions in that cause. There are numerous oddities in the system, the person in charge must have the power to arrangements of schools. We have oddities of scale in get the admissions arrangements changed to make areas such as South Hertfordshire, with its particular them comply with the law—we are talking about the preference to parents from Islington because of some law. The measures that Clause 34 will remove are historic arrangement, as well as partial selection— necessary. something I had to wrestle with at some length and Finally, it is worth reminding the Committee why which was very odd. the current rules came in. In 1998, when the Department In the constituency in which I used to live, the for Children, Schools and Families—as it was then— school of Budmouth, a very popular school, gave commissioned a look at the admissions arrangements particular priority to children from the village of in three local authority areas, the abuses found included: Chickerell for some historic reason. It was difficult for schools asking parents to commit to making financial people struggling to get their children into the school contributions as a condition of admission; asking to understand. There are issues of siblings. There are about the marital, occupational or financial status of issues of faith, which I do not want to get into for fear parents; and ignoring the priority for admission that of stimulating a very long debate. There are issues of schools are legally obliged to give to looked-after children of staff. How will staff be defined? If we are children. Other cases uncovered included schools giving true to some of the themes running through the priority for places to family members who were not Committee, staff might be defined just as teachers. If siblings and interviewing children before making an we go down that road, we should include all school admission decision. Those are not fair practices. They staff, but then a parent whose children a school might allow schools to select parents, and not vice versa. For want to attract might get a job for just an hour a week that reason, I very much support Amendment 101 and helping out as a member of the support staff and would support omitting Clause 34 altogether. then, magically, their children would be allowed priority. It is very important that we get that definition right. Lord Rix: My Lords, Amendment 102 addresses a The problem of coherence is already an issue with variety of concerns I have in relation to the relaxing of voluntary aided schools and academies being their duties of schools regarding the admissions process for own admissions authority.The admissions forums—fora; children with special educational needs, including those I am struggling with my Latin—are now being abolished with a learning disability. My concerns are clearly in subsection (2)(a), despite the fact that they provided shared by other noble Lords in the amendments that some co-ordination and tried to ensure that local surround mine. unfair anomalies did not emerge. It is a retrograde step Schools must be held to account for their admissions to get rid of them as we move into even greater policies and the way they operate these policies in proliferation of arrangements. practice. If the parents of disabled children are to have In many ways, the simplicity of the new code, which full confidence that their children are not being is currently being consulted on, will create massive discriminated against in terms of admissions, schools local complexity, for the reasons I have described. must be aware of their obligations under the Equality That is a view held among many admissions officers, Act 2010 and make the reasonable adjustments required. which is why I support Amendment 101A, with its In the interests of openness, transparency and the focus on the views of parents. With every school its genuine empowerment of parents, the second part of own admissions authority, as their resources come my amendment would set out the rights of parents in under pressure—as they are at the moment, for appealing and complaining against admissions and understandable reasons—fair admissions must remain oblige schools to publicise these details. GC 401 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 402

It is often said that information is power; I want 6pm parents to have easy access to the information to I can recall a particular example of a London which they are entitled when it comes to challenging borough where parents could show that their children unfair decisions by schools over the admission of their were no school’s first choice. They managed to miss all children. However, in his letter to me to which I have the admissions criteria of every school in the borough. already referred, the noble Lord, Lord Hill, advised They might not have been a boy for single sex schools, me that parents and others would still have the option they were not of the faith for faith schools or they did to make their objections known to the school adjudicator. not live close enough to those schools which chose There are also proposals to include academies and free proximity as a criterion, or they were not in the right schools, which of course I welcome. No doubt he will catchment area. That may seem an exaggeration and I explain more in his response to these amendments. am not saying that it happened everywhere, but there Lord Touhig: I support the objectives in the noble were boroughs in London where the complexity of the Lord’s amendment. However, in voluntary aided Catholic admissions arrangements was so great that some children schools and academies, the governing body is the never met the criteria. This is going to be complicated, admissions authority. Currently it can determine and the thought of parents having to manoeuvre their admissions on oversubscription criteria based on a way through the system seems to me to be the worst child being a Catholic or a non-Catholic and so on. way to start your child’s secondary education. It is not These schools are required to, and do, comply with the what should be motivating parents. Equality Act 2010. I am a little concerned. Does he Secondly, I will say quite forcefully that history think his amendment, if accepted, would remove the shows that schools behave badly in this respect. They right of the governing bodies to determine the admissions seek to improve their own chance of coming higher in criteria based upon the existing principles? the league tables or doing better in examination results. I can understand why, and along with all former Lord Rix: That is an extremely awkward question. Ministers I plead guilty to constructing a system that In fairness to you, I should say that it should not puts so much pressure on schools to do well in the remove that obligation, but I think it probably would. performance tables that sometimes their behaviour runs counter to what they should be doing. When Baroness Morris of Yardley: My Lords, I would schools choose their admissions criteria, historically also like to speak to this group of amendments. I they have not been about taking the poorest, the least support the amendments moved by my noble friend. I able, the most underperforming, the worst behaved shall be brief. I think that the details of the amendments and those from unsupportive families. They are the and how they would affect the legislation have been most difficult children to bring up to the key levels. I made quite clear. I would like to carry on where my do not say for a moment that there are no schools and noble friend left off in considering what underpins head teachers who are doing a really good job in this this. respect, but there is no history of schools setting up At first look, the system of the adjudicator and their admissions criteria in order to take on the most admissions forums might seem quite complicated. It difficult children. Indeed, they set up criteria that will clearly is a bureaucracy in the sense of the word and bring in those who have the best chance of succeeding. there are things going on there that seem to be relatively complex. However, I think that the Minister has to go I have listened carefully to what the Government back and look at why this arrangement was made. If have said. Whether the pupil premium will change those amendments improved the working of the schools’ behaviour remains to be seen. But, to be adjudicator, I would not have a problem, but it is really honest, if it does not then it will be too late because quite clear that the powers of the adjudicator and the the infrastructure that provided some protection will admissions forum are very much reduced by this. have been removed. I do not believe that the pupil Three things underpinned the introduction of the premium will suddenly make schools change their adjudicator. When the Minister replies, will he be able admissions criteria so that they take on these children to tell us how his Government are going to deal with in order to get the money because I do not think a bit these three problems if he removes the power of the more money will make much difference. I just do not adjudicator? The way that the last Government dealt buy the idea that, all of a sudden, the historic behaviour with these three problems was through the system of pattern of schools arranging their admissions policies admissions forums and the adjudicator. Take them in order to take children that will put their school in a away if you do not like them but it would be disastrous good light will change just because of the pupil premium. if nothing was put in their place, for three reasons. The third problem that the adjudicator was trying First, I go back to this great complexity of the to solve is also the most important. I accept completely system, when schools are their own admissions authorities, that the starting point for the Government is the wish and indeed when the adjudicator system was brought to devolve powers to schools, and in many ways I in there were far fewer schools that were their own think that some of these developments are good, admissions authorities than is the case now. I was not timely and will serve us well. But I do not understand in favour of any school being allowed to be its own how being able to choose the children you teach is a admissions authority, save for faith schools. Indeed, I freedom you deserve to have. It is not a freedom that was not in favour of the move by my own Government should belong to schools, it should belong to parents. to allow academies to be their own admissions authorities. This will give schools the freedom to choose rather As we now move towards having more schools in that than parents the freedom to express a preference. I felt category, it will get worse. strongly as a teacher, and I feel strongly as a politician, GC 403 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 404 that the job of teachers in schools is to teach the I draw quick comparisons with universities. There children they have. They must get their heads down was a risk of anarchy in admissions systems a number and do their best by the kids that come through their of years ago as a number of universities expanded in doors. Any effort and energy put into changing the the 1960s and thereafter. That anarchy was dealt with sort of children who come through your door and get in part through creating UCAS, the Universities and on to your register is wasted. What you should be Colleges Admissions Service. For example, there was doing is working out how best to teach them. That is an agreement that you could not apply to both Oxford what being a teacher is all about; that is what being a and Cambridge, and that if you wanted to apply to school is about. I never brooked the idea that one way one of them, you had to apply earlier. Rules were of raising standards is to change the admissions worked out so that people knew where they were. arrangements, but that is the way we have forced On the question of fairness, and here I put a direct schools to behave in recent years. question to the Government, in universities there is a More important than that is that admissions is the sudden interest in fairness and access and OFFA may only part of a school’s behaviour that can detrimentally well have its powers increased to deal with a set of affect the ability of a neighbouring school to improve, financial regulations about how universities are funded. and that is what bothers me most. Even if you do not It is interesting that in one educational context regulation agree because you believe that a school should have and the imposition of fairness and unfairness is taking the right to choose the children or have its own place, and yet in schools the same question of fairness oversubscription criteria—which is essentially the same is going in the other direction. We need consistency thing—and even if you think that is a freedom they here. need, you have to accept that that freedom sometimes makes it so difficult for neighbouring schools to raise Lord Lucas: My Lords, I look forward to what my standards because they get the children that are not in noble friend has to say because I share some of the the over-subscription criteria after schools exercise the concerns of other Members of the Committee. I think freedom. The whole of our education system is littered it is important that we should continue to move schools with schools that are really trying with some difficult admissions towards fairness. As the noble Baroness, children for whom life is made more difficult because Lady Morris, has pointed out, this is not the history of of the admissions arrangements of a neighbouring schools. They have always been interested in finding school. That is the case whether you like it or want it ways of covert selection. The history of the last 10 years or think it ought to be. or so has been a gradual winding back from that. We My question to the Minister is: if you take away the even have Cardinal Vaughan Memorial School, that last Government’s mechanism for solving the three great Catholic school in west London, removing some problems what are you going to put in place? The of the most objectionable means of social selection problems are: first, the complexity of the system, even which were in its admissions criteria. There are other more so now that every school has responsibility for examples of progress throughout the UK. its own admissions arrangements; secondly, the behaviour The Anglican church has been very helpful in what of the schools, given that it has been proven that it has done to make schools fairer. However, it is a schools will endeavour to take the children that are process that goes against the natural inclination of easiest to teach; and, thirdly, the need to protect those schools and governors. Once parents capture a school, schools whose chances of increasing or improving they tend to want to keep it captured. I find it hard to standards can be detrimentally affected by the admissions understand how the proposals in the Bill will improve arrangements of a neighbouring school. fairness. At this point, I shall sit down and listen to my noble friend. Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I support the idea that schools should have discretion in relation The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I will be brief. I am to admissions policy but it should be a clear, publicly grateful for the Minister’s reassurances that children stated admissions policy. Out of that, however, come in the care of local authorities will continue to have two difficulties, one of which is the possibility of first priority in school admissions. I am looking for a anarchy. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, indicated further reassurance on this occasion. I think we all how that was the case. As a young, innocent parent agree that when the state takes a child away from his who came to joust within the Inner London Education family, the least that the state can do is ensure he gets Authority, longer ago than I care to remember, there the best education possible. We know that that has not was an element of anarchy in the system. As a parent, been the case in the past. There is great instability in if you were not savvy or did not know x, y and z, you many of these children’s lives, particularly when foster could not crack it. There is an issue of anarchy here. If placements break down in the middle of the school every school has its own admissions policy and there is year and a child has to move to a new area and a new no co-ordination, parents will find themselves in an family. Teachers have told me that these children end anarchic situation but will not quite know it. The up in the poorest schools because no places are left in knowing and the well attached will do well. The second the good schools by the middle of the year. I hope that danger is fairness and unfairness. The point has been the Minister can offer me further reassurance on this made and we need someone to take responsibility for matter. I have missed the letter on admissions that saying whether or not cumulatively these admissions might have already answered the question. How will policies add up either to anarchy or unfairness. There he know that these children are continuing to receive may be better ways of doing it. The best way is having priority? I should be grateful for information on that many excellent schools, but we are where we are. and I look forward to his response. GC 405 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 406

Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, perhaps I a particular modification of a school’s admission may make a brief intervention because, obviously, one arrangements. Why then are the Government proposing supports a great deal of what has been said, particularly this change? The core argument is that we think that on fairness and ensuring that the least well provided responsibility for putting mistakes right should rest for children are given not only a fair, but a more than with the admissions authority. In practice, there are a fair, chance. I thought that one of the bases on which number of ways in which an admissions authority can academy status was to be granted was a clear implement the adjudicator’s decision and put it right, understanding that academies would take a proportion and that is where the responsibility should lie. We are of these children. If that is the case, how will that be also clear in the revised code that is out for consultation ensured? that admissions authorities must make any amendments “without delay”. There is no doubt that schools or Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, I start by responding local authorities have to amend their arrangements in to the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, and recognising line with the adjudicator’s ruling, but we want schools her commitment to fair access and the points made by to take responsibility to put right what they have got a number of noble Lords. I hope we can accept that wrong. there is common ground between us and that there is For the record and in response to the point made by nothing more important than working to make sure my noble friend Lady Walmsley, I would like to reassure that all children and young people have a fair opportunity noble Lords that we are not changing the arrangements for excellent education and training. Part of the answer, relating to parents’ right to appeal about the admission as the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, said, lies in of their child to a particular school. It is important to increasing the provision of good places. We are not be clear on this. Parents will be informed of their right there yet, but that is one of the underlying principles to appeal by local authorities in their annual prospectus of what the Government are trying to do in their of local schools, and in writing by the admissions reforms—trying to give schools more autonomy and authority where a child is refused admission to one of encouraging more diverse provision. That is, in a way, their preferred schools. the other side of the coin to extending autonomous schools, about which noble Lords have concerns. We The noble Lord, Lord Rix, proposed that the Secretary can address those concerns, but it is the drive towards of State should have a power to inspect a school’s greater autonomy and variety that will, over the longer admissions code to ensure compliance with the Equality term, provide a greater number of better places and Act. The Secretary of State does have a power to ask deal with the underlying problem with admissions, the adjudicator to investigate admission arrangements. which is that there are not enough good places. In addition, local authorities already see every school’s I shall pick up on the point made by the noble admission arrangements and have a duty to refer any Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, and put the scale and all that they suspect to be unlawful to the schools of the problem into context. In February, the schools adjudicator. On the issue of schools’ duties under the adjudicator gave evidence to the Education Select Equality Act, the code includes a reminder to all Committee in another place. He said that, state-funded schools that they have a duty to comply with the Equality Act. “the vast majority of admissions authorities … if they are breaching the rules, don’t mean to be doing so”. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked about looked- In 2009-10, there were 151 decisions, in the context of after children and admissions. The White Paper restates around 5,500 admissions authorities, in more than our commitment that looked-after children will continue half of which the complaint was not upheld. I say that to be guaranteed a place at their first choice school, just to provide a little context. and the requirement for them to have top priority in admissions criteria will remain in regulations and the 6.15 pm code. That applies equally to academies and free schools I understand the concern expressed by the noble through their funding agreements. Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, and others about The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, raised a point the changes. I contend that the changes are slightly about fair access and said that the Bill narrows what more modest than they have been painted. There the adjudicator can look at in a complaint. Under clearly is a change in extending the remit of the Section 88(1) of the Schools Standards and Framework adjudicator to cover academies and free schools, which Act 1998, the adjudicator can continue to use his I think has been widely welcomed. I think that will discretion to look beyond the complaint referred to provide reassurance across the piece and help answer him and make binding decisions if there is a breach. I some of the questions about how government policy agree with her points about fair access, which were applies to different kinds of schools. In addition, for also alluded to by the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of the first time parents will be able to complain directly Yardley. I hope that through initiatives like the pupil to the adjudicator about admissions arrangements at premium, and in other ways that we are looking at any state-funded school. Our revised admissions code through the code as to whether academies would want proposes to make it possible for anyone, rather than the discretion to use the pupil premium as an admissions just a prescribed list, to refer admission arrangements factor, we will help tackle some of the issues about to the adjudicator. I hope that that will be welcome reaching out to the most disadvantaged children. The too. draft admissions code is designed to ensure fair access, The adjudicator’s decision will remain binding and and local authorities are under a duty to exercise their will carry the full force of law, but I recognise that the functions with a view to ensuring fair access to opportunity Bill removes the ability of the adjudicator to impose for education and training. GC 407 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 408

Amendment 101A seeks to ensure that the views of help parents at the time. They will be too late for parents and the need to ensure fair access are the parents who want to complain about the way in which prime considerations when the adjudicator specifies a school conducts itself, necessary though they will be modifications to a school’s admissions arrangements. for that broader perspective. The noble Lord, Lord The adjudicator’s role is to make independent binding Rix, alerted us to the possible consequences for disabled judgments about a complaint in line with what is in children, and that remains a concern for us. the admissions code and admissions law. That gives The contribution of my noble friend Lady Morris certainty to admission authorities, parents and others was characteristically powerful and crisp. Her question about the basis on which a decision is made. We think about what the Government would put in place of the that it would go against the principle of independent school adjudicator and admissions forums has not adjudication to include a presumption that the views really been answered, other than the Minister saying of one party might trump the views of another. That that he does not feel that these changes are as significant might weaken the adjudicator’s impartiality and focus as some of us believe. on evidence, and therefore we are not convinced by the amendment. There are three principles embedded in this issue, as The noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, was concerned there are in other parts of the Bill. The first is: what about the loss of co-ordination by local authorities as are the Government doing in relation to the balance schools become their own admissions authorities. between the opportunity for parents to constructively However, local authorities will continue to co-ordinate challenge the system and the power of schools to applications from parents in the normal applications make determinations across a whole range of issues? round for their area. There are no plans to change this As elsewhere in the Bill, what we are seeing here is a at all. shift in the balance away from parents and local With regard to admissions forums, one reason for communities towards individual schools. That balance removing the requirement to report rather than abolishing will be tipped further as many more schools become it is that if people want to set up an admissions forum academies with the power to determine their own or some other kind of local organisation, they are arrangements. Several noble Lords have raised the perfectly free to do so. We know that forums currently point, but we have to keep coming back to it because have the power to write reports to the adjudicator. we are not talking about the system as it is now but In 2009-10, 14 reports were received by admissions how it will be in the future. That shift in the balance of forums, of which seven were beyond the deadline for power, if you like, is significant and reflects what we responses. Forums also currently have the power to are also seeing in relation to exclusions policies and object to the adjudicator. Only five objections were the power to complain to the local commissioner, received from admissions forums in 2009-10 out of a which we shall talk about later. The Bill shifts the total of 151 objections overall to the adjudicator, and balance in a number of important respects, and that is four were from the same forum. That is not to knock a matter of great concern. them all, but I refer to the point raised by the noble Secondly, I need to ask if the following is a reasonable Baroness, Lady Morris, regarding concerns about pieces principle. A situation can arise in which the schools of machinery that do not necessarily add anything. adjudicator may have decided that a particular school The evidence for what forums contribute in practical is operating its admissions contrary to the admissions terms is at best mixed. code. The school is doing what my noble friend Lady We believe that the existing system, both in the Morris said schools often do: it is behaving badly for school admissions and appeals codes and in legislation, reasons we understand. In those circumstances, the provides safeguards. The changes overall are relatively school adjudicator decides that the school has not modest and in some respects they extend the remit of complied with the admissions code, but what the the adjudicator. With that, I ask the noble Baroness to Government want to institute is that it will be for the withdraw her amendment. admissions authority to decide what action needs to be taken in order to implement the adjudicator’s decision. Baroness Hughes of Stretford: My Lords, I thank I want to raise the question of whether it is reasonable, the Minister for his response and I also thank other when an admissions authority is found to be knowingly noble Lords who contributed to the debate. As everyone contravening the admissions code, that it is for the has said, the issue of admissions and how schools school to decide what action it needs to take in order make decisions when they are oversubscribed is incredibly to comply. I cannot think of another situation where, important. We all share aspirations regarding fair if an organisation is doing the wrong thing in terms of access, particularly so that children from poorer lack of compliance, it is for the organisation itself to backgrounds have the opportunity to get the best decide what it needs to do to put it right. It is a chances by going to good schools. principle I cannot relate to. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raised the Thirdly, I think I got the Minister’s words correct question of the reports that will still be required by the when he said in his summing up that the schools local authority and the adjudicator. They are important adjudicator will be looking, as he does now, at all and she raises a significant question about who will school admissions arrangements and following them look at those reports in the round across the country up. I wonder who will do that in the future, and come to a view about any further changes that particularly when many more schools become may be necessary in the light of how schools behave. It academies and thus their own admissions authorities. is very important to have that perspective across a Is it to be the Secretary of State? Are we really being whole range of areas. However, the reports will not told that the Secretary of State will have the capacity GC 409 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 410 to look closely at the admissions arrangements of Discrimination by faith schools can cause segregation tens of thousands of academies across the country; along both religious and socio-economic lines. Professor that if they have been admonished by the schools Ted Cantle, author of a report into community cohesion adjudicator, the Secretary of State will check that in Blackburn, describes religious schools as, their admissions practices comply with the code and “automatically a source of division”, follow up in detail that they have done what they said in the town. In other areas, faith schools that are their they would do? Are we really saying that without the own admission authorities are 10 times more likely to schools adjudicators—it is not just one, but teams be highly unrepresentative of their surrounding area covering the whole country—the Secretary of State than faith schools where the local authority is the will be able to ensure that schools are complying with admission authority. Separating children by religion, the code? I do not think so. class and ethnicity is totally opposed to the aim of Despite the Minister’s genuine attempt to reassure social cohesion. us, I am afraid that we may well return to this issue on In addition, voluntary aided faith schools have, on Report, but for the moment I beg leave to withdraw average, 50 per cent fewer pupils requiring free school the amendment. meals than community schools. Pupils starting at faith schools are also, on average, more academically able Amendment 100A withdrawn. than pupils starting at inclusive schools. That is because faith schools’selection criteria mean that they usually—not Amendments 101 to 102 not moved. always, but usually—take fewer deprived children and more than their fair share of children of ambitious 6.30 pm and wealthier parents. I share an office with a colleague from Northern Amendment 103 Ireland, who constantly asks me: “Have we not learnt the lessons from faith schools in Northern Ireland?”. Moved by Baroness Massey of Darwen All schools should include and educate pupils of all 103: Clause 34, page 33, line 33, at end insert— beliefs together so that they can learn about and from “( ) In paragraph 5 of Schedule 11 to the Equality Act 2010 each other, instead of being segregated by their religion. omit paragraphs (a) to (e).” Prejudice was mentioned last week in Committee. I heard that homophobic bullying is more likely to happen in faith schools. The amendment to the Equality Baroness Massey of Darwen: I shall speak also to Act 2010 will stop maintained schools—voluntary Amendments 140 and 141 in this group. I was fascinated and foundation schools—with a religious character by the previous debate on admissions, when many from discriminating in admissions by removing the wise and challenging things were said. My noble friend opt-out from the Act. Lady Morris, I think, said that we have a system littered with schools trying to do their best but fighting Any religious discrimination in admissions is against a losing battle because of other local schools selecting the ideal of an open and inclusive school system. No pupils. We heard some comments about schools selecting state-funded faith school, including academies, should parents, rather than the other way round. I know that be permitted to discriminate in their admissions on the Church of England has recently been looking religious grounds in any circumstances. My first at this and I hope for some clarification on its amendment would rule out religious discrimination in thinking. admissions to all new academies. If the complete prohibition of religious discrimination in the new The Minister talked about autonomy and variety. academy and free school system cannot be achieved, Autonomy and variety will not solve all the issues in and my first amendment does not pass, my second front of us concerning admissions. I want to talk amendment would ensure that voluntarily controlled about faith schools. My first amendment to the Academies schools which had not previously been permitted to Act 2010 would prevent academies and free schools discriminate could not begin to discriminate on conversion with a religious character discriminating on admissions; to academy status. I beg to move. my second would prevent voluntary-controlled faith schools which convert to academy status from increasing the priority of religious criteria in their admissions Lord Lucas: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment policies. 138. I like faith schools and I want parents to be able As my noble friend Lady Hughes said earlier, admission to choose them, whether or not they are of that faith. I to school is extremely important. We know that many share the distress of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, state-funded faith schools use their legal privileges to at the idea that schools become ghettoes for their own have highly selective admissions criteria, giving preference religion. Wherever that is widely practised it has been to the children of parents with particular beliefs. Academy disastrous. Northern Ireland in particular and also the schools which have converted from state-maintained west of Scotland are examples of where this has faith schools are, of course, their own admissions caused and causes continuing division and strife that authority, and they religiously discriminate up to 100 per we do not see in the rest of the UK. cent in admissions. Free schools with a religious character may discriminate in up to 50 per cent of admissions. Lord McAvoy: I am loath to sound authoritative on Will that remain the case? Will that be the case for the English and Welsh system, but I know something looked-after children who do not have the same faith of the system in the west of Scotland. It is a complete as the school they want to go to? travesty to say that the tragic history of the west of GC 411 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 412

Scotland has been caused by, exacerbated by or would unfortunate; it distorts what should be an open choice be solved by the removal of Catholic schools. If he has by parents of a good school that has a particular some time, I will give the noble Lord a history lesson ethos. Subsection (1) is inclusive and says that faith on prejudice in the west of Scotland. schools would be inclusive. Around half the children they took would share a commitment to their faith, Lord Lucas: My Lords, I would be delighted to but the other half could be of any faith or no faith. share tea with the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, if I get I strongly believe in subsection (2). Exactly as my the chance, but I would say that those in charge of a noble friend Lord Lucas said, if parents have chosen a number of Scottish universities have spent many years Catholic school, an Anglican school, a Jewish school refusing me information about which schools their or a Muslim school for their children, they must students attend on the grounds that, if it is known that respect the traditions of that faith. It is not a secular a student at a Scottish university attended a Catholic school; it is a school of that faith. They should be school, they would be subject to discrimination and included in the general ethos of the school and pay harm as a result. If that is the kind of society which tribute to the customs within it that reflect its faith. the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, is happy with, I differ My experience, and that of noble Lords who spoke from him. earlier, reinforce this; parents of other faiths welcome I think that separate education is not desirable. On the ethos of a Christian school, and perhaps parents the other hand, I recognise that a religious school with of other faiths will welcome the ethos of a Muslim or no pupils who follow that particular creed would be a a Jewish school as well. very strange animal indeed. I propose a compromise Parents are looking for a school with strong values, which has been reached on a large scale in the Anglican and if those values are based on faith, the parents will community that schools should be open for around accept that. The success of faith schools has been half their pupils—in many cases more—whose parents widely demonstrated by their popularity and their are not of that religion but who accept that they want academic success. an education in that religious tradition. Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I support Lord McAvoy: The noble Lord’s amendment states: my noble friend Lady Massey on Amendments 103, “(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1), an Academy with a 140 and 141. I do not accept Amendment 138. In fact, religious character may require all pupils admitted to the school I seem to recall that the bishop in the Anglican Church to take a full part in the school’s religious life”. in charge of education recently announced that he Has he any idea how that would work in practice? would welcome the idea that people not of the faith Does he realize the division and animosity that that were accepted into religious schools. That should be could cause by imposing the ethic on a Catholic school welcomed. which now becomes 50 per cent Catholic and 50 per cent mixed variety? What right would the Catholic Baroness Perry of Southwark: Does the noble Baroness 50 per cent have to impose their point of view on the not recognise that the amendment specifically states 50 per cent who are not Catholic? How would that be that 50 per cent of the children would not be of the policed? faith?

Lord Lucas: My Lords, that phrase comes from the Baroness Turner of Camden: I am sorry, but I will admissions criteria for Ampleforth, which is a well continue, if I may. In view of what I said, the noble known Catholic school, where it works extremely well. Baroness will accept that in no way can I accept the Parents who want to send their children to a Catholic subsection (2) in Amendment 138, particularly where school should accept that it is a Catholic school and pupils would be accepted into religious schools who that it will educate its children in the Catholic religion. were not themselves religious. I do not see how I send my children to an Anglican school. I am not subsection (2) could in any way be accepted; it does religious myself, but I entirely accept that my child is not seem sensible. If people are being accepted who being brought up within the context of school as an are not of that religious faith, why should they be Anglican. I value that tradition of education. Again, it expected to participate in the school’s religious life is perhaps an illustration of the conditions in the west when it is not of their particular faith and it was of Scotland that such a thing is inconceivable to the known that they would not be of that faith when they noble Lord. For me, it is just ordinary. I beg to move. were accepted into the school?

Baroness Perry of Southwark: My Lords, my name The Lord Bishop of Lichfield: The right reverend is also to Amendment 138. For me, these two paragraphs Prelate who laid this challenge was sitting next to me together describe the ideal nature of a faith school when until a little while ago, and he got into serious trouble it has the freedom of being an academy. Subsection (1) in some quarters for saying what he did. We take very makes the point that a faith school should not in any seriously the possible ghettoisation of our country’s way have admission criteria that insist that all children schooling, and we are constantly thinking about it. shall have some kind of allegiance to the faith of that Perhaps we all skirt around the fact that we live in one school. We have all heard stories about parents suddenly of the most educationally divided countries in the turning up at a church in the last few months before world, and the fault lines run deepest between rich and their application to a school that happens to be the poor rather than between one religion and another. best school in the area and a faith school. That is We ought not to forget that. GC 413 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 414

We in the church are not new to this. It has to be wish to misrepresent her in any way, but she seems to remembered that for two generations, the Church of be saying that, in her view, faith schools are more England provided thousands and thousands of schools likely to be homophobic, do not take youngsters from for the poor, while our successive Governments were poorer backgrounds and are therefore more middle-class. still saying that the poor did not need educating. Then If that is what she is saying, I am sure she genuinely to accuse us of ghettoisation is a misremembering of believes it, but perhaps I may suggest—taking the history. point made by the right reverend Prelate—that she moves out of London and travels around the country 6.45 pm to see what faith schools are actually doing in some of As noble Lords have pointed out, the trouble is that the most deprived communities in our country. many of our schools have prospered and some of them have then forgotten the challenge of being there for the poor and for everyone, and have enjoyed the Baroness Massey of Darwen: I am sorry to interrupt prosperity that has come through the beliefs that we my noble friend in full flow but I must say that what I propagate. The National Society research shows that a said about the issue of homophobic bullying in faith predominantly strong ethos and overall high achievement schools was a quotation from someone in this Room. go together. That, of course, leads to a challenge: what It was not my impression—I quoted someone who do you do with that prosperity and success? averred that this was the case. On his second point, I am not saying that all faith schools are of one particular In my diocese in the West Midlands, which contains calibre, I am saying that some schools undoubtedly some of the poorest wards in the land, the church experience what the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, said, schools are in the most deprived areas. London is an that parents move to the grandparents’ house or to the exception—we must keep remembering that. If you go end of the road to get into a particular school, which to West Bromwich, Wolverhampton, Stoke or other remains firmly ghettoised, if I may use the expression. such places, who are the professionals working still in the centre in education? It is the churches. I resist these amendments simply because to get from A to B—I Lord Touhig: I am very grateful to my noble friend think we are all agreed about A—needs a certain for clarifying that point, because it is important that flexibility and a bit of freedom locally on which these we fully understand her views on this. I am glad that I amendments are too restrictive. gave her the opportunity to explain in more detail Perhaps noble Lords would not mind if I read out what she believes and understands. I accept her final the figures to counteract some of the impressions that point. I have been the governor of a faith school and have been given. The vast majority of church schools there are instances where people move around in order admit pupils from the local neighbourhood, regardless to try to get their child into a faith school. of faith background. The largest group of Anglican I am troubled and confused about Amendment 138. church schools is the 2,500 voluntary controlled schools, It states: and they are entirely open. On neighbourhood admissions, “No Academy may select more than 50% of its pupils on the 42 academies, bar the six in London, are open on a criteria based on religious characteristics”. neighbourhood basis; and the 77 new schools of the It goes on to say that those who attend will be required, past seven or eight years are also mostly based on neighbourhood admissions. In the next smaller category, “to take a full part in the school’s religious life”. voluntary aided schools are allowed to prioritise faith It seems to state that half the school population criteria. Out of the 2,100 voluntary aided schools, should not be of any particular faith but that all the 1,950—roughly 90 per cent—are overwhelmingly school population must take part in the school’s religious neighbourhood schools, including those with up to life. To my mind, that is wrong. I strongly support the 100 per cent Muslim pupils. As to voluntary aided view that parents should have the right to withdraw secondary schools, 100 out of 160 are oversubscribed, their child or children from the religious life of a and the question is what we do about that. I agree with school if they so wish. At the moment, Catholic those who disagree with me on much of these matters schools that convert to academy status retain their that that is a real problem. However, only a tiny existing admissions arrangements. The amendment number of schools in this category admit pupils only tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and the noble on foundation places; I think that there are 11 such Baroness, Lady Perry, would mean that 50 per cent of schools in the whole country. Just over one-third of the pupils would not be admitted on the basis of faith. voluntary aided schools admit more than half of the This makes no sense whatsoever and is really intake on foundation places. discriminatory. My noble friend Lady Massey made Therefore, we are overwhelmingly a neighbourhood the point about public funding for faith schools. The school enterprise and I hope that we will be given the Catholic church, like others, pays a great deal of challenge that noble Lords rightly want to give. However, money towards supporting its own schools in any we should be given the flexibility to continue to say event. We should bear that in mind. that neighbourhoods differ and that strategies that Amendment 140, moved by my noble friend Lady may work in one place may not work in another. Massey, states, “admission arrangements for the school should make no provision Lord Touhig: My Lords, I looked at Amendments 138 for selection on the basis of religion or belief”. and 140 and was troubled and confused. After listening I am sure that it is not my noble friend’s intention, but to my noble friend Lady Massey, I am worried again. that would put at risk every Catholic school and faith She knows me well enough to know that I have no school in the country. What is the point of having a GC 415 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 416

Catholic school, or a faith school of any kind, if there than a passion and there was a welcome absence of is to be no provision based on faith, belief or religion fervour. It was, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop in deciding the admissions policy? I am sure it is not of Lichfield said, a community school which included her intention—I am sure it would never be the intention everybody. My closest friend was a Jewish boy who of my party—to close every faith school in the country, was the son of a refugee. When I went to see his family, but that is the risk of this amendment. his mother explained the Jewish faith to me. I believe strongly that in schools, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Lord Sutherland of Houndwood: My Lords, I remind Muslims and Buddhists should all sit alongside each the Committee that the issue of parents who try to other, play alongside each other, eat alongside each move into areas near schools is not confined to faith other and go home on the same bus together, because schools. I remember the distant days of people of the that way lies tolerance, understanding and forbearance. most surprising political background being able to If one moves away from that, one creates intolerance afford houses near Holland Park because it was not a and all the troubles of a divided society. bog standard comprehensive. That has gone on for It was interesting to hear the noble Lord, Lord quite some time in a variety of communities; it is not Sutherland, speak, because he recalled the debates we confined to faith schools. had four years ago when the policy of the Labour I support Amendment 138. The direction of travel party, I am glad to say, was that in all new faith is the right one, to open up the community, and it schools, 25 per cent of the pupils should come from seems compatible that those liberal churchmen and outside the faith. It was a view expounded by the women whom I know would want this. There may be a noble Lord, Lord Adonis, in the House of Lords, and practical problem. If this is seen as a restriction in I shared it. It was not shared by the leaders of my terms of faith background, I am not sure that Muslim party, but they were mistaken in that. They are not schools would be able to fill all their places. We would always mistaken, but they were mistaken then. I have to be a bit careful about that formulation. On the campaigned with the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, to second part of Amendment 138, if we have faith support the view. Unfortunately, the Labour party was schools, that seems to me to be part of the deal. If my rattled by a quite unscrupulous campaign by the Catholic parents had decided to send me to a sports academy—God church—I see the noble Lord is nodding so he must forbid—part of their understanding would have been have been part of it—in which it tried to pretend that that I would spend hours in the gym and on wet, cold, this would undermine all Catholic schools in the country miserable sports fields. Although I might never have for ever. But it was only for new Catholic schools, and forgiven them, that would have been part of going to the Catholic church had founded only two new schools that kind of school. The same applies to technical in England since the war. The Catholic church thought schools and other sorts of schools. I think it not that with all these Poles coming into the country, there unreasonable that a faith school with a particular would be lots more Catholic children in future, although ethos and direction should say to parents, “You I think that that particular ambition has been dashed. understand that this is how we do things here”. Then It was a quite unscrupulous campaign and the Labour you inspect them independently and see whether they Party gave in and surrendered. do it in a fair and reasonable way. The amendments were drawn up. I had seen the amendments ready to be tabled saying that new faith Lord Baker of Dorking: My Lords, I support what schools should ensure that 25 per cent of their intake the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, has said, and I was from outside the faith. During those debates, the support Amendments 138 and 140. I think that the present Archbishop enunciated the policy of the Anglican noble Baroness, Lady Massey, in her characteristically church, which has been developed by the right reverend charming way, may have gone a little far in wanting to Prelate today, and said that for new Anglican church end all faith schools in our country. The view I have schools, 25 per cent of the intake should be from taken consistently in my political life is that one should outside the faith or of no faith. That has now been live with the existing faith schools and make them extended to 50 per cent, and I do not disagree with more inclusive, but I have always resisted the creation that at all. It is the best way to go forward. of new faith schools. When I had responsibility for these matters, I did not approve an exclusive faith If, during the next five to 10 years, we see the school, and I think it was a mistake on the part of the establishment of faith schools, particularly of the new Labour Government in 1997 to open up that possibility faiths in our country, we are going to have very exclusive again. schools that I think will create divisions in society, particularly in our towns and cities. I favour very Why do I say that? During the war, I went to an much the idea of all new schools at least being inclusive Anglican primary school in Southport. I loved it. It and extending that slowly to all schools. In fact, that is was a Victorian building and I had, as the basis of the reality. Very few Catholic schools today have 100 per such education as I have had, a Victorian education. cent Catholic pupils, so they are part of the policy. The school was right next door to the church. However, Why do you not announce it? There must be a direction religion was not thrust down our throats. We went to somewhere from on high that you do not. The Anglican church twice a year, at Christmas and at Easter. Of community of faith schools is very inclusive today—by course we started each day with a hymn and a prayer, nature, it always is. As the right reverend Prelate said, but everyone did that in those days. It was really a some of these schools are 100 per cent Muslim but community school and embodied for me the great they still have the rigour of teaching that comes from a attractions of Anglicanism. Belief was a comfort rather belief. That is very important. GC 417 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 418

I know that I am not going to persuade the Minister Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords— to agree with us because I think that they are going to approve some new faith schools. I must say that that Lord McAvoy: If you will let me finish, it is completely would be a profound mistake. unfair to portray them in the way that they are being portrayed here at times. 7pm Baroness Massey of Darwen: I am sorry to interrupt Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I think he will find when he reads my noble friend. Many of us have a strong interest in Hansard tomorrow that at no point have I said the faith schools. I speak as a practising Anglican. I am things that he is accusing me of. heartened that on the whole the debate has not reinforced the view that we would take comfort from the ghettoisation of schools. They should be able to exist in our society, Lord McAvoy: It may be that the noble Baroness give of their own merits and receive of their own has not heard me clearly. I am saying that inherent in experiences from other citizens of different faiths. these amendments is the idea that faith schools are a Some of the most impressive schools that I have bad thing. Folk may not like that, but that is what is seen—without exception, as it happens—have been coming across loud and clear. For instance, there has Anglican schools that have a high Muslim component been no answer to the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, because that is what has happened to the demography who quickly picked up the point that the trait of in that particular area. moving house is not confined to faith schools or Catholic schools; it seems to be a trait throughout a I want not to prolong the debate but to widen it whole host of schools. Yet, there has been no mention slightly into a different consideration that can also be of that or any drawing back of the implication that met by Amendment 138, to which I am sympathetic. If this happens only in Catholic schools. I may avert to the interest of noble Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, in wider issues of community Society is evolving. Last week, I revised my opinion cohesion, on which she has a strong record, many of of the noble Lord, Lord Baker. I certainly remember us would be committed to that. him from the 1980s and I did not like his politics, but last week I thought that he was great. However, this It has always seemed to me that the debates that we week I have revised my revision and he is back to being have about multiculturalism are often misconceived. a bad man again. Certainly for 800 years we kept the The ideal that I want is people who believe in something faith in Ireland, I can tell you. In saying that there and have a body of beliefs that they exemplify and should not be any more faith schools, the noble Lord, wish to express along with fellow believers in their Lord Baker, makes a point and he is asking us to own school. They thereby have an ability to look trumpet it. I think I mentioned last week that there is a within their own community but at the same time fairly large Roman Catholic school in Scotland where, reach outwards to other communities. They are not if my memory serves me correctly, about 10 per cent of doing it in an exclusive or inhibitory way; they are the pupils are Muslim. It is working and it is great—it saying, “This is what we stand for but we listen to you, is doing well for everyone. respect you, welcome you in and enjoy having you as participants”. I therefore feel strongly that as our I have mentioned the phrase “detachment of reality”. society evolves we ought to be getting to a position I say to noble Lords who have tabled these amendments where people may have their inner beliefs that will and who have spoken in the manner that they have: let differ in many ways, or their own particular characteristics, society evolve and let things happen. No one should but at the same time they are prepared to share a take active steps against what they see as the badness common citizenship, a common space and a common in faith schools. I say to noble Lords in all sincerity, respect. The way that these amendments are conceived honesty and frankness that the more you try to enforce may help us to lead towards that. There should be no this, the higher the wall will go up, because there has ghettoisation but a sensible inclusion—that is the way been a lack of trust that is based on British history that I hope this debate is now going. over the past 500 years. I am sure that noble Lords will be glad to hear that I shall not go into all that, but that lack of trust is based on 500 years of British society. Lord McAvoy: My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow One thinks particularly of the Catholic community. If my noble friend, as he says in this debate. My noble noble Lords try to enforce it, it just will not happen. friend Lady Massey has cited Northern Ireland. If They should go the way suggested by the noble Lord, you want, and I normally do, we can go back to 1176 Lord Baker, of letting things evolve, although I disassociate when the Welsh allowed Pembroke, otherwise known myself from his wish not to build faith schools. On the as Strongbow, to first invade Ireland, and that was the other hand, if you make a big issue of it, that may start of the Troubles—English and Norman interference happen anyway, and if so, and if that is what people in Ireland. It is a long-term issue. want, that will be a good thing. However, I do not What is coming across to me from the noble Lord, accept that faith schools are a bad thing. Lord Lucas, and certainly from my noble friend Lady The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Massey, is that faith schools—especially Catholic schools, Lord Lucas, is completely unworkable. It would cause it seems—are an inherently bad thing; they do bad strife and animosity and would make the original things and they are not good for society. Among ethos of the school seem dictatorial towards the new colleagues here there is a certain detachment from component of the school. That would take us back. I reality because that is not how they are perceived say again that if we want to move forward, the way outside. It is completely unfair— ahead is consensus. We should convince people that GC 419 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 420 going in a particular direction is right. Go that way However, those exceptions do not mean that schools and all the community will come together. Go in the with a religious character can discriminate at will. All opposite direction, and the community will be divided. maintained schools and academies must comply with the schools admissions code, as we have already discussed. Lord Elton: My Lords, I am as eager as anyone else They may give priority to applicants of a particular to help the Committee to move on quickly, so I shall faith only when oversubscribed and they must admit be brief. I was not going to intervene at this stage but, all applicants without reference to faith-based or any having been Minister for Education in Northern Ireland other criteria when they cannot fill all their places. for two and a half years, and during my watch having Schools with a religious character, irrespective of their authorised the institution of the Lagan integrated faith, are subject to the same checks and inspections school, I feel that I have an interest that I should put as all other schools and, as the right reverend Prelate before your Lordships. pointed out, many of these schools have a very good record of reaching out to their local communities and The most heartening things that I have heard have promoting diversity. I remember that Church of England come from my right reverend friend the Bishop. As I schools score more highly on community cohesion see it, the process of integration is already going on in than community schools, which is a fact worth reminding established faith schools. It seems to me that what we ourselves of. do not want behind the movement for these amendments is an animosity towards religion. We want an animosity So far as maintained schools converting to academies in favour of good education, and here I endorse what are concerned, we set out the principle at the time of the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, said. In other words, the Academies Act that they should convert on an as is a good school is always going to be a magnet. Whatever basis. Therefore, the process of conversion to become its theological background, people are going to move an academy is not in itself a way of increasing the there to get their children into it, and the same applies number of faith places available. New academies, including to a school that is not a faith school. You are not going free schools—this is a question I was asked by the to end that with any amendment of this sort. It is in noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen—will be fact competition working its influence on the educational able to apply faith-based admissions criteria only to a market. Therefore, I say only that if we are to have maximum of 50 per cent of their pupils and, again, amendments at Report they should be designed to only if they are oversubscribed. We were clear about foster, rather than smother, the movement to inclusivity that at the passage of the Academies Act, and I am within faith schools that we have seen, and which I happy to restate that today. believe to be thoroughly healthy. Overall, we see no reason to change the operation of maintained faith schools and academies. As many Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, this is our second noble Lords have said, things are evolving in their own debate this afternoon on faith. Like the last one, it has way. They are popular with parents, they are beneficial been thoughtful and stimulating. I want to start with for pupils and they are an important part of the the comments of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop education landscape. However, we recognise that we of Lichfield who reminded us first about the tradition need to strike a balance. That is why, with the expansion of the churches and other faiths providing education of the academies, we have been careful to ensure that being a longstanding one in our country. He also there is no overloading of the system with religious-based wisely warned us against the dangers of generalisation. schooling, which is why we have put in the 50 per cent There have been a couple of times this afternoon limit. where we have teetered on the edge of generalisation, and the right reverend Prelate sensibly and calmly I think we have struck a fair balance and that faith brought us back from that. He also used powerful schools have served us well. I would therefore ask evidence to show the contribution that faith schools the— make. It is the Government’s position that they provide high quality school places and, as we have heard from Baroness Morris of Yardley: I agree entirely with a number of noble Lords, that they increase choice for the position the Minister has outlined. I just want to parents and that they secure better results overall, invite him to explore one point on which I think the which is one of the reasons why they are popular with Committee would like some reassurance. It is the parents. point raised, to some extent, by the noble Lord, Lord Baker. The position that the Minister has just defended Therefore, my starting point in replying is to say is the position as it was up to 10 or 15 years ago, and a that I will, perhaps not surprisingly, be arguing for the lot of schools with faiths other than those which we status quo. We think that faith schools should be able are used to seeing are now coming into the system. to teach according to the tenets of their faith and to have admissions policies that reflect that ethos. The I remember at a meeting or two ago of this Committee right of parents to have their children educated in that the Minister gave an assurance that he would not accordance with their religious beliefs is enshrined in let creationist schools go ahead, and that is a religion. the European Convention on Human Rights, as we Yet his opening comments, however, were about the have heard, and we are committed to maintaining that degree to which a religion is right to teach their faith in right. The exceptions in the Equality Act that have school. As we move forward—and there are more been discussed today exist to allow faith schools to schools with a religion other than those with which we continue to provide education in an environment are familiar—how worried is the Minister and what conducive to their religious ethos and in accordance actions is he taking to make sure that the position he is with parents’ wishes. We see no reason to remove them. at ease with now continues? GC 421 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 422

7.15 pm Clause 35 : Duties in relation to school meals etc Lord Hill of Oareford: My Lords, I take the underlying point. In my comments, I made reference to the Amendment 103ZB importance of inspection. That is not simple, because inspectors need to know what they are looking for if Tabled by Baroness Hughes of Stretford they go into a faith school where one might think 103ZB: Clause 35, page 34, line 4, at end insert— there is cause for concern. It is not always straightforward, “(1B) Subsection (1A) shall also apply where a local authority but inspection is one way of addressing this. in England sub-contracts out the provision of school meals.” As to setting up new schools and free schools, about which noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Baroness Hughes of Stretford: My Lords, I shall be Lady Massey, have concerns, oddly enough I think very brief, and I am grateful to the Minister, who has that because that whole process is being set by and written to me on this matter. My amendment simply overseen by the Government from the outset—we sought to make sure that the provision in the Bill have due diligence and ways of exploring these questions, relating to charges for school meals included situations which we will do carefully and rigorously—that area is where the local authority was contracting out the of less concern than perhaps that of independent provision of the meals as well as providing them by schools and maintained schools. I am not at all dismissive directly employing people to cook them. The Minister of the point that the noble Baroness raises. I hope that has assured me in a letter that that is the case. I just inspection and the Secretary of State’s powers on want to get that commitment on the record. It states: academies to make sure that everything is operating “Sections 512ZA and 533 of the Education Act 1996 provide correctly will provide some reassurance. We should powers for local authorities and governing bodies to charge for not stick our heads in the sand about the issue. I was school lunches—they are still responsible for this if they contract headed towards asking the noble Baroness, Lady Massey out the delivery of the meals. Clause 35 of the Education Bill will of Darwen, to consider withdrawing her amendment. not change this, so all school meals, whether delivered by a contractor or by the local authority or governing body will be covered by the clause”. Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, as ever, this On that basis, I will not move the amendment. has been a fascinating and wide-ranging debate. We are evolving in this, but evolution sometimes needs a Amendment 103ZB not moved. little helping hand. I accept the historical role played by the church in education but we have become a Clause 35 agreed. different society from the one that we were many years Amendment 103A not moved. ago. I continue to have fears about ghettoisation. Of course I am not seeking to close faith schools. I am not sure how I gave that impression. I am just seeking to Amendment 104 ensure that faith schools are more open, and I have Moved by Lord Lucas some sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Baker, in all this. 104: After Clause 35, insert the following new Clause— “Music licensing In following up the question of my noble friend After subsection (1)(g) of section 173 of the Licensing Act 2003 Lady Morris, which I was also going to ask, I hope (activities in certain locations not licensable) insert— that the Minister has no fears that some free school “(ga) on the premises of a school or college”.” could be set up somewhere and designed solely to promote a faith of one kind or another. I am not so Lord Lucas: The amendment is self-explanatory. As convinced of that. I accept the historical influence of I have had a very clear and supportive e-mail from the faith schools, and I am not seeking to go back on that. Government today, which I hope has been widely However, we have to continue our vigilance about our circulated, I shall leave it at that and beg to move. schools—be they faith schools or otherwise. As always, I would wish to strike a balance. I hope that at some Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: I support the point we can discuss with Members of the Committee amendment and have read the helpful letter from the of all faiths some of the issues that came up in my noble Lord, Lord Hill. I restate how much I agree that previous amendment and try to reach a greater getting schools to apply for licences in the past has understanding. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw been a very unwieldy way to get them to put on fairly the amendment. simple forms of entertainment. I very much support the Live Music Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Clement- Amendment 103 withdrawn. Jones, to which the letter of the noble Lord, Lord Hill, referred. I am very pleased to hear that the Government Clause 34 agreed. will be supporting it in its progress through Parliament. That obviously goes much wider than dealing with live music in schools; nevertheless, it will be helpful. Schedule 10 : School admissions: consequential When I said to my colleagues that I was also very amendments pleased that the Government had committed to looking at the Licensing Act 2003, they said, “You’re going to Amendment 103ZA not moved. regret saying that, because it took us for ever to get a half-decent balance on licensing music and alcohol Schedule 10 agreed. provision. Good luck to you”. My instinct is that we GC 423 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 424 should look again at the Licensing Act. I am pleased of children within their admissions group who have or that the Government will be doing that, and I look subsequently demonstrate high ability or aptitude for forward to that debate. learning.”

Baroness Perry of Southwark: My Lords, my name Lord Blackwell: My Lords, I shall speak also to is added to the amendment. I just say to my noble Amendments 107 and 119. Given the hour, I will try to friend that, although I urge him to continue to look be brief. These amendments relate to points I made at kindly on removing the need for licensing from schools Second Reading about the importance of providing a and colleges, perhaps this is an opportunity to look proper learning environment in our schools for children more widely at some of the other places where young of high ability and high aptitude. Although they all people need licences, such as small sports clubs, and so relate to that, they are not consequential, and therefore on, where if they have even a radio playing in the at subsequent stages of this Bill it may be appropriate background, they must get a licence. We need to to consider them separately. I must also make clear encourage young people, not make life more difficult that none of these relates to the admission procedures for them. I hope that, in their consideration of the of schools. In the words of the noble Baroness, Lady issue, the Government will look more widely than Morris, they talk about how best to teach all the simply schools and colleges. children who come through the school door. Amendment 106 puts a duty on schools simply to Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I know that provide for the needs of high-ability pupils. I use the many in this House share my noble friend’s view that terms “high-ability” and “high-aptitude” because I public performance of music should not be licensable want to make clear that we are talking about latent as in schools. We agree that schools currently face well as demonstrated capability. It is clearly important unnecessary bureaucracy when they organise events that standards are high for all children and we make such as school plays, concerts or swimming galas, and all schools excellent, but we must make sure that the we are taking steps to address that. We heed the most able children are properly catered for. This is an warnings of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, but we argument about fairness, that these children, like all have announced our intention to consult on Schedule 1 children, should be able to fulfil their potential. It is to the Licensing Act 2003, which currently regulates also an argument about what is important for the the public performance of live music and performance nation because the most able children are those from of other creative and community activities, such as whom our future leaders in all spheres of activity dance, plays, film and indoor sport. Our intention, often come. If we are going to compete on a global subject to the consultation, is to deregulate those stage, we need to make sure that the most able children activities as far as possible in schools. That is possible have the highest possible standards against global through secondary legislation. competitors. We need that to apply to children in the The Government have also expressed clear support state sector, not just those children who are able to go for the Live Music Bill introduced by my noble friend through the private sector. Lord Clement-Jones, which completed its Committee The amendment does not prescribe how schools stage on Friday. I know that, because I was there. It should make educational provision for high-ability seeks to deregulate in certain circumstances the provision children but clearly one of the most common ways of of live, unamplified music in most locations and live, doing that is through streaming or setting. The latest amplified music in workplaces such as schools, as well figures from Ofsted are for 2006-07, and suggest that as licensed premises such as public houses, subject to 14 per cent of children in primary schools are setted or restrictions on audience size. These planned changes streamed, excluding PE. In secondary school that rises will free schools from the unnecessary bureaucracy to 46 per cent, but that means that 54 per cent are not they currently face and allow them to use music in a setted or streamed. Interestingly, in maths 78 per cent sensible way to deliver the best possible education for are setted or streamed, in contrast to 51 per cent in their pupils. On the basis of that reassurance, I hope languages and only 34 per cent for geography. The that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his question that that raises is why standards are considered amendment. less important in geography or languages than they are in maths. If streaming or setting are appropriate to Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am very content with that deal with high-ability children in maths, are they not reply and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. equally important for other subjects, particularly for Amendment 104 withdrawn. those children who need to get high grades in a number of subjects in order to progress to the best universities? Amendment 105 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled This is not the time for a long debate about this. I List. recognise that there are counterviews, including the argument that other children benefit from having high- Amendment 106 ability children in the same class. The counter to that is that there is evidence that both sets of children can Moved by Lord Blackwell benefit if they have teaching best suited to their aptitude 106: After Clause 35, insert the following new Clause— and ability. In any case, it is important for the whole of “Duty to provide for the needs of high-ability pupils society that the most able children are allowed to In determining the nature of their educational provision, all excel. Putting this duty on schools without prescribing maintained schools, Academies and free schools must how they do it would require them to address the have regard to meeting the special learning requirements question of how they are providing for the needs of GC 425 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 426 the most able children and allow them to defend down even more of the barriers between the two whatever method they believe they have to fulfil that sectors. Independent schools see themselves as part of requirement. our national education system. Their inclusion in co-operative ventures of the kind envisaged by the 7.30 pm amendment would be greeted by them with considerable enthusiasm. For those reasons, I support Amendment 107. Amendment 107 is a further thought on that subject. It recognises that not every school will have sufficient numbers of high-ability pupils or the resources or Baroness Morris of Yardley: My Lords, I have a skills to provide a high quality set or skill catering to great deal of sympathy with the intention behind these their needs. There is evidence that you need a group of amendments, but I have a few issues about the solution 20 or more high-ability children in order to have peer to the problem. I want to ask a particular question group pressure and indeed to afford the teaching that the Minister might address in her response. In the resources to focus on their learning environment. This past we assumed that very bright children will succeed amendment would allow a number of schools in an despite school and that we should not put in a place a area to group together to provide a high-ability learning system where they could succeed because of their environment for children from across those schools, schooling. I am very much in favour of the proposal just as now a school in one area may provide Russian that all schools should try to meet the needs of all A-level because not all schools can provide that. Pupils their students. I have often thought that the most able from other schools go to that one school for their 2 per cent to 3 per cent of young people in this country teaching. That method would allow schools to group have special educational needs in the broadest sense, together to provide a high-ability class, and the amendment and that they need to be supported. So I am entirely recognises the practicality that subsidised transport on board with the idea. I welcome the debate, and may be required to enable children to get from one although I will have to look at the amendments more school to another. closely, raising the issue is a good thing and this This is not about admissions criteria, though. These should be a feature of our education system. We schools would all be mixed-ability admissions, and it should ask schools to address the particular needs of would be for teachers within the school to decide this group of children just as we ask them to look after which children could benefit from being part of a the less able. high-ability group. It would not be set at a specific age. I welcome what the mover of the amendment said As has often been said, children develop at different in terms of not wanting to go back to selection, and I ages, so this would allow for children to be moved into can see that the amendment is not about that. However, the group at any age that was thought appropriate for I think that there must be a more imaginative approach them to benefit from it. It would be a practical way of than creating what is essentially a high ability stream allowing that need to be met. within a school. I am no great researcher, but I know Amendment 119 would require Ofsted in its school that all the evidence shows that separating children in inspections to inspect how schools were performing schools is not the best way of raising standards. With the duty of providing a learning environment for reference to the comments made by the noble Lord, high-ability children. It would therefore follow on Lord Lexden, work has been done about children from Amendment 106 in making that part of the working with those in the independent sector. I remember criteria that Ofsted would use in evaluating schools. an innovative scheme that was set up under the Excellence in Cities programme in Manchester. Sixth-formers I hope that these amendments are reasonably from state schools took an undergraduate module straightforward. I am looking for the Minister to with students from Manchester University, or it could indicate the extent to which the Government are have been the Open University, I cannot quite recall. sympathetic towards these aims and the extent to That was not an isolated scheme. which legislation in this form would be helpful so that we can take a view on whether and how they ought to All I would encourage is more general thinking be pursued on Report. about how to provide for really able children who need to be pushed. What, in the first part of this century, can we do that has not been done before to raise Lord Lexden: My Lords, I vigorously support standards? I would be much more interested in using Amendment 107, on which my name appears. It would new technology to set up master classes with the best be even better if subsection (1)(c) in the amendment in the world, even if they are located on the other side included the words “independent schools” after the of the world. We should free this debate up in order to word “academies”. be more creative than we have been in the past, and Speaking on an earlier amendment, I laid stress on therefore my question for the Minister is this: why did the importance of partnerships between independent they abolish the Young,Gifted and Talented Programme? and maintained schools. Nowhere is co-operation more It was the one scheme that made every school in this likely to be valuable on both sides than in the areas country identify a number of students who were thought covered by the amendment. In subjects like science to be gifted and talented. It brought about cultural and maths, independent schools can really help to changes in schools; some schools had said, “We haven’t raise standards and prospects for high-ability pupils got any bright kids”, while others had said, “We’ve got overall because of the successful results that they achieve. too much on our plate with our struggling kids”, so In modern languages, for example, almost 50 per cent there was a group of children whose needs were not of top grades go to pupils from independent schools. being met. Over the years that the programme was in Let that expertise be shared widely in order to break operation, we began to change the culture of every GC 427 Education Bill[LORDS] Education Bill GC 428 school in the country. It was not perfect, but it got on Lord Lucas: My Lords, about 5,000 English sixth-form to the agenda in every school that the needs of the school pupils a year take Open University modules, most able, by ability or aptitude, also have to be met. It which is a very good approach to this matter and was sad that the Government chose to abolish and something that we will come to on the 25th. Those destroy the programme, which would have been a modules are not reflected in the performance tables, good hook on which to continue the debate. I would and the data on the performance of these children are not mind an explanation of why it was done and what not available to celebrate their achievements and those will take its place. of their schools, as I think should be the case. It should be possible for children who are capable of Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, perhaps I can just taking on these things to be allowed to expand and warn against being too prescriptive. It is important flourish, and for schools to be rewarded for that in a that schools do this in a way that is most appropriate. I way that they understand—that is, through recognition certainly join others in encouraging schools from different and, indeed, money. At the moment, the YASS scheme sectors to co-operate with each other, but I will give seems to exist on the good will of schools and their just one example of why I think this is so important. I interest in the attainment of their brightest pupils, have two grandsons, one of whom is brilliant in English rather than on any great support from the Government. and terrible at maths, while the other is terrible at It is wonderful for me to find myself agreeing with English and brilliant in maths. They both came from my noble friend Lord Blackwell. I have often found the same gene pool. A child might be in a high-ability myself in opposition to him but I think that he has group for one subject but not for another, so we have struck a very clear note here and I am very happy to to let schools take account of that. support him. Of course, I agree with other noble Lords that there are many ways of doing this, and mathematics taught as a mixed-ability subject can be Baroness Perry of Southwark: My Lords, I know very strong. I recommend my noble friend to the that we are short of time, but I would like to interject works of Professor Jo Boaler on that subject. We that when we talk about giftedness, we are not just know from the Oxbridge admissions statistics how talking about academic ability. Schools should be much we are generally failing in this area. We need to urged to recognise that some children are immensely do much more to give the brightest children from the gifted with their hands, with technology, at sport, in poorest backgrounds the education and ambition that music and so on. they deserve. However, as it is fashionable to talk about international The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I recall articles comparisons, I also point out that Singapore reckons published in Scientific American and New Scientist that half of its most crucial entrepreneurs were in the not so long ago which looked at chess grandmasters. bottom 10 per cent at school, so it is not just the bright The articles identified that they had spent so much of children who need our attention. their lives playing chess that they had become geniuses in the chess arena and suggested that genius derived Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, this debate from people spending an awful lot of time doing has been a model of brevity. We have got in an whatever they were most passionately interested in. I enormous number of points in a very short period. should be grateful for an assurance from the Minister Perhaps we could learn something from that. Therefore, that, for example, a young man who is passionate I shall not prolong the debate, given the lateness of the about science can have the opportunity to study science hour and the fact that most of the points that I was at playtime and after school, and that the staff within going to make have been covered. the labs will make the equipment available for him to The debate has underlined for me that the whole use. I should like an assurance that, where young thrust of the Government’s future schools programme people are passionate about using their hands or whatever, is based on school autonomy and that we are rowing there will be the necessary flexibility and resource in back here in talking about schools needing to co-operate. schools for them to follow their passion and spend a Someone pointed out that local authorities used to lot of time doing it. provide some of that element of co-operation for specialist education, whether it was for specialist GCSEs Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I endorse and A-levels or whatever. We are trying to reinvent the the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, about wheel when some of those mechanisms were already the need for innovation in this area and, in particular, there to provide at least some of that. for linking up with local universities and perhaps local I very much agree with what has been said. I had a colleges. That is very important. similar question to that of my noble friend Lady While we are talking about other areas—the noble Morris concerning what happened to the gifted and Baroness, Lady Perry, mentioned children being brilliant talented scheme. at other things—perhaps I may get in a plug for My only other concern relates to the wording of, something that will be happening in this country in particularly, Amendment 106, which talks about, October. I refer to the World Skills Competition, at “high ability or aptitude for learning”, which those who are brilliant at doing all kinds of as being the only area for which we should make things with their hands and so on will be exhibiting special provision. Again, I very much agree with the their skills. It is the skills Olympics. I hope that a noble Baroness, Lady Perry, and others, who said that number of Members of this House will go to ExCeL talent goes far beyond academic talent. If we are to to see the exhibition. pursue this, I hope that the mover of the amendment GC 429 Education Bill[18 JULY 2011] Education Bill GC 430 will look to broaden it out. I am not trying to water it there are many positive examples, such as schools down, but talents and gifts come in all sorts of forms. providing a particular qualification at one school and As much as we need leaders who are academically pooling their interested pupils so that there are enough bright, we need sports men and women who are world to warrant the course. We have had examples of Japanese leaders, and there are lots of different ways in which or some specialist forms of learning where classes we want our children to excel and eventually to provide can be put together to provide a quorum to follow a leadership in this country. Therefore, I have a concern particular programme. Schools have the necessary powers about the wording of the amendment, although I and freedoms to do this without new primary legislation. think that there is an enormous amount of agreement The noble Baronesses, Lady Morris and Lady Jones, around the Room about how we should go forward on asked why we got rid of the gifted and talented scheme. this issue. It was actually the previous Government who took the decision to end the gifted and talented scheme. Our 7.45 pm strategy for education is about raising standards for all Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, education pupils, and that of course includes pupils with natural is about helping every child to make progress and ability or aptitude. As my noble friend said, those reach their full potential, and that includes those children are our future leaders in business, our future pupils who have a high ability or aptitude for learning. doctors and teachers, our future engineers and scientists. There are many ways in which schools can support I agree with my noble friends Lady Perry and Lady and challenge those pupils with the highest ability, Sharp that it is also about those with the creative and including, as my noble friend Lord Blackwell pointed manual skills. I entirely endorse their enthusiasm for out, setting and streaming. Where setting is done well the World Skills Competition in October, where we and is regularly reviewed, it can raise standards, and will see some of the most skilled young people from teachers are free to do this. He asked, if it was so good our country and around the world. We must not forget to stream pupils in maths, why it did not happen also the abilities and aptitudes in those practical skills as in geography. The answer is the numbers taking those well. particular subjects. You need a critical mass for each Schools already have the necessary freedom to work subject in order to make streaming an effective tool. together to ensure that all the pupils in their care get Schools target their resources in the way that they an education that stretches and develops them. That is feel will be of most benefit to their pupils. That could backed up by accountability through Ofsted inspections. include the provision of extracurricular activities or More performance information on the progress that outreach programmes with local universities or colleges. schools make with the highest achieving pupils will be We have removed much of the ring-fencing of funds part of that. With those assurances, I hope that my that restricted schools’ ability to make their own decisions noble friend will consider withdrawing the amendment about how to drive their improvement. and supporting our approach. Today, in response to the Bew report, we have The Earl of Listowel: Before the noble Lord responds, announced that higher level tests for year 6 pupils will I think that I am right in thinking that a Select continue to be available for schools to stretch the most Committee of this House, when discussing science able pupils, if they wish. We will consider how to education, drew particular attention to the lack of lab incorporate results from these tests in performance technicians and the difficulty that that posed for young tables to give credit to schools that support their people to spend time in the lab to do experiments. I highest attaining pupils. Within a slimmed-down national encourage the Minister to consider that issue and curriculum, it is possible for schools to design a wider consider what progress has been made since that report curriculum that best meets the needs of all their pupils: was published two years ago. for example, pupils with a particular aptitude for languages taking more language subjects. Lord Blackwell: I thank my noble friend for her My noble friends made the important point about response and thank the other noble Lords who have children from disadvantaged backgrounds in particular. taken part in this debate. Some extremely helpful and One of the key points about the pupil premium, which interesting comments came in this brief exchange. It is is given to support schools in helping those pupils, is clear to me that the amendments could be improved, that we have given schools the freedom on how to if they were to be pursued. Obviously, I will want to spend it. Schools could, therefore, use those funds reflect on what the Minister said about what the towards additional support for high-aptitude or high- Government are already doing and come to a view on ability pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds to help whether more should be done that the amendments them succeed. School governing bodies already have a would encourage. We may want to return to them on duty to promote high standards of educational Report but, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw achievement and the well-being of all pupils at the the amendment. school. I hope that my noble friend will understand Amendment 106 withdrawn. that we are not attracted to a particular further duty. In Amendment 107, my noble friend also seeks to Amendment 107 not moved. promote greater co-operation between schools to provide Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, this may be for the needs of this group of children. We strongly a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn support collaborative working between schools in the until Wednesday at 11.45 am. interests of their pupils, be those children with a particular interest, aptitude or need. As my noble friend said, Committee adjourned at 7.52 pm.

WS 101 Written Statements[18 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 102

the use of non-human primates; and ensuring that the Written Statements 3Rs are at the heart of the training of the research leaders of the future. Monday 18 July 2011 Arms Exports Animals: Scientific Procedures Statement Statement The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable Browning): My honourable friend the Parliamentary friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Under-Secretary of State for Equalities and Criminal Commonwealth Affairs (William Hague) has made Information (Lynne Featherstone) has today made the following Written Ministerial Statement. the following Written Ministerial Statement. I told the Foreign Affairs Select Committee on The coalition agreement includes two commitments 16 March 2011 that the Government would commission relating to the use of animals in scientific research: to a thorough review of the UK’s policy and practice end the testing of household products on animals; and with regard to the export of equipment that might be to work to reduce the use of animals in scientific used for internal repression, in particular crowd control research. goods, in the light of events in the Middle East and North Africa and concerns in Parliament and the We believe these are ambitious but essential and public about UK policy. achievable goals and that scientific advances present significant opportunities to replace animal use, to This review has now been completed. It was conducted reduce the number of animals used, and, where animal by Foreign and Commonwealth Office officials in use is unavoidable, to refine the procedures involved so close consultation with their colleagues across Whitehall, as to minimise suffering. These long-standing aims are and it examined our policy on arms exports. Its purpose referred to as the 3Rs. was to determine whether improvements could be made to reduce further the risk of misuse of UK-origin I am, therefore, pleased to inform the House that controlled military goods and to increase confidence the Government have agreed arrangements to deliver that goods exported from the United Kingdom would both commitments. not be used for internal repression. It looked specifically The commitment to end the testing of household at events in the Middle East and North Africa region. products on animals will be implemented using the The review concluded that there was no evidence of licensing powers provided under the Animals (Scientific any misuse of controlled military goods exported from Procedures) Act 1986 by adding a condition to relevant the United Kingdom. There were some reports of the project licences. use of UK-origin crowd control vehicles in Libya, but Before implementing the licence condition, I propose these reports remain uncorroborated. to consult with establishments holding relevant project Consultations with our overseas posts revealed no licences to confirm the economic impact. I propose evidence that any of the offensive naval, air or land-based also to consult with establishments, relevant trade military platforms used by governments in North Africa bodies and other stakeholders to agree a working or the Middle East against their own populations definition of household product to accompany the during the Arab Spring, were supplied from the United condition. Kingdom. The commitment to work to reduce the use of However, the review also concluded that further animals in scientific research will be delivered through work is needed on how we operate certain aspects of a science-led programme led by the National Centre the controls. The Secretary of State for Business, for Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals Innovation and Skills has responsibility for our export in Research (NC3Rs), an organisation with a strong licensing operations. He and I will consider how this record in reducing animal use. The NC3Rs will closely should be done, and once that process is complete I involve government departments and agencies, the will update the House on our proposals. Home Office Inspectorate, the research community in both academia and industry, and others with relevant animal welfare interests. Care Quality Commission: Registration The programme will focus on refinement as well as Statement reduction and replacement and will coordinate action to minimise and reduce animal use and suffering while The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, avoiding actions which might simply drive work abroad Department of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable to countries where lower standards or less stringent friend the Minister of State, Department of Health testing guidelines apply. (Mr Simon Burns) has made the following written Key areas of activity will include exploiting the ministerial statement. latest developments in science and technology to reduce I wish to inform the House that the department is animal use; facilitating data sharing and collaboration today publishing a consultation on proposed changes across industry and academia; providing an evidence to the Care Quality Commission (Registration) base for changes to international regulations which Regulations 2009 and the Health and Social Care require animal use; a continuing focus on the 3Rs and Act 2008 (Regulated Activities) Regulations 2010. WS 103 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 104

The proposals include changes that will improve the regulatory action in relation to Winterbourne View effectiveness of current regulatory arrangements for concludes with the publication of the compliance report health and social care and reduce the burden on today. providers (including the providers of healthcare at the Olympic Games). CQC has now inspected all Castlebeck Care services in England (23 in total). Individual reports on the The Government are committed to keeping regulatory findings are being drafted. These reports will be published systems under review and to ensuring that regulatory separately and followed up with appropriate regulatory burdens are kept to a minimum, while ensuring that or enforcement actions where necessary. The final the systems are effective at protecting service users. In summary report and individual reports will be available line with commitments given to the House, officials on the CQC website by the end of July. have carried out an initial review of the operation of the regulations governing the new registration system CQC’s own internal review is progressing with for health and adult social care providers operated by interviews of staff involved currently taking place. the Care Quality Commission. The first year of operating This information will provide the evidence for CQC’s the system has highlighted a number of issues in the individual management review as part of the Serious regulations that either do not function as initially Case Review, led by South Gloucestershire Council. intended, lack clarity or which impose an unjustified The internal review is expected to be completed by late burden on providers. This consultation document sets summer. out the issues identified, proposes how they might be addressed and seeks views on these. It also asks CQC will be carrying out a focused inspection respondents to identify other issues that should be programme which will review care provided for people considered as part of a wider review to begin later this with learning disabilities by hospitals. The review will year. The proposals include changes to both the regulation be in two phases: of healthcare and adult social care services that, subject to consultation responses and the parliamentary process, phase one will consist of the inspection of 150 could be made swiftly and that we plan to start to services that provide care for people with learning implement in 2012. disabilities; and By keeping the regulations governing the registration phase two will use the learning from phase one to system under constant review, we will ensure that the look at a sample of other registered services legislative framework keeps pace with service covering alternative models of provision for people developments, focuses regulatory requirements where with learning disabilities. they are most effective, and delivers a system that allows the Care Quality Commission to provide the South Gloucestershire Council has appointed Margaret assurance that services meet the safety and quality Flynn, chair of the Lancashire Safeguarding Adults requirements that people who use services and their Board, as independent chair of the Serious Case Review families expect. and the rest of the panel are now in place. Consultation on proposed changes to regulations for The panel for the NHS Serious Untoward Incident Care Quality Commission Registration has been placed Review has been appointed with members from NHS in the Library. Copies are available to honourable South West, NHS South Central and NHS West Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords Midlands. The review will be led by Dr Gabriel Scally, from the Printed Paper Office. South West Regional Director of Public Health. Arrangements are being put in place for family, Care Services: Winterbourne View carers and self-advocate representatives to be involved Statement in the review as part of a reference panel. The first phase of the review has started. This The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, involves gathering information from all commissioners Department of Health (Earl Howe): My honourable of care and treatment at Winterbourne View since friend the Minister of State, Department of Health 2006. (Paul Burstow) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Department of Health review will be led by I promised to update the House about ongoing Bruce Calderwood, Mental Health and Learning activity in relation to Winterbourne View private hospital. Disability Director. The review will be advised by a panel of experts including Professor Jim Mansell, The House will wish to be aware that the Care Mark Goldring and Anne Williams. Its activities will Quality Commission (CQC) has today published its be informed by the views of service user and carer compliance report on Winterbourne View. representatives including the National Forum for People All patients have now left the premises and with Learning Difficulties, the Challenging Behaviour Winterbourne View is now closed. CQC undertook a Foundation and the National Valuing Families Forum. responsive review of Winterbourne View following the abuse uncovered by “Panorama”. This review found I have today placed in the Library a copy of the serious concerns about the safety and quality of the Winterbourne View compliance report. Copies are service and CQC decided to take enforcement action available to honourable members from the Vote Office to remove Winterbourne View from Castlebeck Care’s and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. I registration, closing the service permanently. CQC will update the House further at the earliest opportunity. WS 105 Written Statements[18 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 106

Children: Early Intervention to use programmes which are most effective, and are proven to deliver results. We agree that evidence-based Statement programmes and practice are important and like Graham Allen, recognise that any list of the most effective The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for programmes will change over time so should be kept Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My honourable friend under review. Naturally it is for local areas to decide the Minister of State for Children and Families (Sarah which programmes suit the needs of their community. Teather) has made the following Written Ministerial Through Supporting Families in the Foundation Years Statement. we are asking the sector for their views on how best to The Government welcome the recent publication of encourage the sector to make full use of those the second and final report of Graham Allen’s review programmes, as part of the commitment to the into early intervention. Government recognise the case Government’s new relationship with the increasingly for supporting prevention and early intervention and autonomous and self-confident sector. are already taking action. Today, jointly with Anne On his recommendations on wider system reform, Milton, I am launching Supporting Families in the and the creation of Early Intervention Places, the Foundation Years which sets out the importance of Supporting Families in the Foundation Stage document intervening early and the role that different services, sets out an ambition that this work should link closely working together, should play to ensure that children with community budgets focused on families with and families receive early help where needed. It reflects multiple problems, to encourage local authorities to the review’s vision that every child should be helped to work not only with the most challenging families, but develop the necessary social and emotional skills to also to support families earlier to reduce the numbers form positive relationships, have self-confidence, perform of families reaching crisis point. to the best of their abilities at school and in later life, In his second report, Graham Allen has investigated being aware of the needs of both themselves and a number of innovative approaches to contracting for others. A society without those skills will ultimately outcomes and funding to support the delivery of this fail—and the cost is already there to see in terms of vision. This is challenging and new territory, but his children falling behind at school, at greater risk of proposals provide a very useful input to the Government’s developing physical or mental health problems, needing consultations on how they can best deploy and unlock to go into care and in the worst cases getting into resources to improve the effectiveness of public services. crime. Failure to get this right results in substantial We welcome his call for an independent foundation to costs both to society and children’s life chances, with champion early intervention and challenge public service poorer health, reduced employment prospects and providers and Government. Such a foundation has an relationship instability in later life, and the risk that important role to play. We welcome this proposal as a these problems cascade on to the next generation. As way of engaging the key partners in this agenda. the Government have already set out in their Child Poverty and Social Mobility Strategies, we must take The Government view both of Graham Allen’s action now to address these issues. reports as a very positive step forward in what we know about early intervention and its funding. We are Graham Allen’s vision is wide-ranging in scope. He very grateful to Graham Allen and his review team for challenges central government to respond to this vision, their considerable efforts in clarifying the challenge, to ensure that early intervention principles are embedded and the opportunities, arising from an early intervention across government, but particularly to focus on the approach. needs of those who can benefit most—our children and young people. He also argues that every local area should put in place effective strategies to work not only with the most challenging families, but also to Children: Foundation Years take preventative action at every stage of a child’s Statement development through community budgets. Today’s launch of Supporting Families in the Foundation Years recognises Graham Allen’s input to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the early intervention agenda. He has directly contributed Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My honourable friend to Government’s thinking on this statement which has the Minister of State for Children and Families (Sarah taken into account many of his recommendations, for Teather) has made the following Written Ministerial example on adopting the term foundation years from Statement. pregnancy to five, his emphasis on the importance of Today the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Public parenting, and focusing on what works in evidence-based Health (Anne Milton) and I are publishing a policy interventions such as the Family Nurse Partnership. statement Families in the Foundation Years, which sets He has identified approaches to innovative finance, out the Government’s policy and the services that we and payment by results through data collection, along think should be offered to all parents and families with proposals to encourage people at every level to across England from pregnancy until a child reaches focus on intervening early, particularly in the foundation the age of five. years. Much of his vision links to Eileen Munro’s Today we are also launching a document—Supporting recommendations on offering early help. Families in the Foundation Years—for commissioners, Graham Allen has conducted an analysis of evidence- local leaders and professionals who work with families based programmes in his two reports, and argues in the foundation years, setting out our vision for the powerfully that in a tight fiscal climate, it makes sense system that will implement these policies. It has been WS 107 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 108 developed with advice from a wide range of professionals Graham Allen MP on early intervention and by Dame with extensive knowledge and experience of the foundation Clare Tickell on the Early Years Foundation Stage years. (EYFS). Both Mr Allen and Mr Field called for Government to adopt the term foundation years to On 6 July I launched a consultation on revised signal the importance of the first phase of life in standards for learning, development and care of children underpinning later achievement and well-being. from birth to five—a simpler, strengthened Early Years Recognising the need to raise the status of this time of Foundation Stage (EYFS). We also made available a life, we have adopted this name in the Statement we discussion document on the new core purpose of Sure are making today. Start children’s centres focusing on the outcomes they support for children and families, particularly the Making this the most family-friendly country in Europe most vulnerable. Families are the cornerstone of our society, and this Taken together these publications constitute our Government have committed to making this country response to those recommendations from Graham the most family friendly in Europe. We have already Allen MP, the right honourable Frank Field MP, and demonstrated our commitment to supporting families Dame Clare Tickell that deal partly or wholly with the during the foundation years: foundation years. I have also laid a Written Ministerial the Government have already increased to 15 hours Statement today in response to Mr. Allen’s second and a week the free entitlement to early education for final report Early Intervention: Small Investment, Massive all three and four year-olds, and the paving Savings which I welcome and which will inform wider legislation required to extend this entitlement to work on innovative finance. disadvantaged two year-olds is currently before Today’s publications emphasise the vital role that Parliament; skilled and knowledgeable professionals and strong by 2015, we aim to increase the health visitor leadership play across the foundation years. This requires workforce by 4,200 (an increase of over 50 per a framework of high-standard qualifications that meet cent). Health visiting services can then deliver a full the needs of employers, and equip early education service to children, families and the community professionals to support young children’s development. working closely with Sure Start children’s centres I am pleased to announce I have asked Professor and other organisations; Cathy Nutbrown to lead an independent review of foundation years qualifications. The review will consider over the same period we will double (to 13,000) the the quality and breadth of qualifications available to number of vulnerable young families who will the early education workforce, and how best to strengthen benefit from the Family Nurse Partnership; qualifications and career pathways in the foundation investment in relationship support over the years, offering advice to me during next year. spending review period will further the positive I am also announcing that nine local authorities impact relationship stability has on parenting; will be the first to trial payment by results in children’s the Government are consulting on a new flexible centres. The areas are Southampton, Oxfordshire, Oldham, system of shared parental leave which will give Gloucestershire, Devon, Croydon, Blackpool, Barnsley, mothers and fathers more choice about how they and Barking and Dagenham. They will test how to share their caring responsibilities; reward and incentivise reaching the most vulnerable families, improving family health and well-being and the Government have announced that they want to raising attainment of children at age five. retain a network of Sure Start children’s centres, accessible to all families but focused on those in Raising the status of the foundation years greatest need; and This Government want to build on recent the Government are committed to strengthening improvements in the quality of services for young accountability arrangements for children’s centres, children to create an environment in which local including through introducing payment by results, communities, business and public services work together so that success is recognised and rewarded. Nine to help families and parents to be the best they can be, local authorities, announced today, will become the particularly during the important first years of their first to trial payment by results in children’s children’s lives. centres—with up to 21 further trials to be Research clearly demonstrates the impact of the announced early in the autumn. The experience of first years of a child’s life on later life chances. Maternal the trial areas will help the Government and local health and health in early childhood are important for authorities develop a final set of measures so later well-being. Children who do well at age five are payment by results can be rolled out nationally six times more likely to achieve at or above expected from 2013-14. levels in the first years of primary school and the Supporting children, families, and professionals effects of good early education are still visible at age eleven, and on into later life. Research also shows that Taken as a whole, this package takes forward our children do best when parenting is warm, responsive principles of public sector reform by promoting greater and authoritative. involvement of parents in services; increasing flexibility in the free entitlement; strengthening quality across The strength of this evidence has been recognised foundation years services; further opening up children’s in the recent major reports from the right honourable centres to a wider range of providers; and reforming Frank Field MP on poverty and life chances, by funding and strengthening accountability. WS 109 Written Statements[18 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 110

It emphasises the importance of intervening early by the ten Unions funded by this grant. There is no and outlines the role that different services, working reference in the report to funds being used for the together, should play to ensure that children and families Trade Unions and International Health and Safety receive early help if this is needed, in line with workbook. recommendations from Mr Allen and Professor Eileen The correct answer should have been: Munro. The Government response to Professor Munro’s Alan Duncan: Between 1 January 2003 and report was published on 13 July, and set out our 31 December 2005, the Department for International commitment to early help. Development (DfID) provided £416,387 to the Trades As I confirmed in my Statement on 6 July, we are Union Congress under the Strategy Grant Agreement. introducing a new requirement on early years providers A final report on activities funded by this grant was via the reformed EYFS to provide a summary report presented to DfID in June 2006 and is available on the to parents on their child’s progress in the prime areas TUC website. The report provides a comprehensive of learning and development between the ages of two description of the activities conducted by the ten and three. The report will help parents understand Unions funded by this grant. The report indicates that how they can encourage and support their child’s public funds were used for the production of the learning and social and emotional development at International Health and Safety workbook. However, home and guide the provision of any additional support information held shows only expenditure by broad the child might need to help them catch up by age five. category and does not give information on how much Parents will be encouraged to share that report with funding was used for each publication. their health visitor to inform the health and development review at the age of two to two and a half, which is part of the Healthy Child Programme. Crime: Statistics For the longer term we are exploring the feasibility Statement of a single integrated review at around age two, in which parents will be able to review their child’s progress The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness with health visitors and early years providers jointly Browning): My honourable friend the Parliamentary who will be able to offer help to address any issues Under-Secretary of State for Crime and Security (James early on. We will work with expert early years and Brokenshire) has today made the following Written health professionals, practitioners and sector Ministerial Statement. representatives, and parents, to develop new models for this integrated review. We will explore, with the On 20 January 2011, the Home Secretary, in a help of our health visitor early implementer sites, Written Statement to the House made clear her concern moving to a universally available single integrated that, “our existing measures of crime are confusing review to support children and families from 2015 and offer the public only a partial picture of the true when the planned increase in health visitor numbers level of offending. It is in the public interest that we will make this possible. have measures of crime that are clear, meaningful and in which the public can have confidence”. We will place copies of Supporting Families in the Foundation Years in the House Library. The Home Secretary announced a review to be undertaken by the National Statistician, Ms Jil Matheson to address these points. On 6 June 2011, the National Correction to Commons Written Answer Statistician published her Review of Crime Statistics Statement for England and Wales. I am today placing a copy of the Government’s formal response to the National Statistician’s recommendations in the Library of the Baroness Verma: My right honourable friend the House along with a copy of the review report. Minister of State for International Development (Alan The Government accept all the recommendations Duncan) has made the following Written Ministerial of the National Statistician. The Government believe Statement. that the transfer of publication of crime statistics to An error has been identified in the Written Answer the independent Office for National Statistics will help provided to the honourable Member for Witham on build public trust in the key data that are published 30 June 2011 (Official Report, col. 931W). The full nationally about crime. The Government also look answer given was as follows: forward to the National Statistician’s independent Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Advisory Committee considering what further changes International Development, whether any funding from are necessary to the collection and presentation of the public purse provided through his department’s crime statistics while reducing administrative burdens Strategic Grant Agreement with the Trades Union involved in collecting them. Congress was used to fund the Trade Unions and International Health and Safety workbook. 62589 Defence: Rationalisation Alan Duncan: Between 1 January 2003 and 31 December 2005, the Department for International Statement Development (DfID) provided £416,387 to the Trades Union Congress under the Strategy Grant Agreement. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry A final report on activities funded by this grant was of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable presented to DfID in June 2006. The report provides a friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Liam Fox) comprehensive description of the activities conducted has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 111 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 112

The Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR), communities. Finally, we have taken into account the announced last October, marked the start of the process need to make the maximum use of existing Defence of transforming Defence to meet the challenges of the estate, and to dispose of that which is not required. future. It set out a path to a coherent and affordable Much detailed planning remains to be done, both Defence capability in 2020 and beyond; and some of to identify the most effective drawdown plan for the the key building blocks—such as the return of the forces currently in Germany and to determine which Army from Germany, and a Royal Air Force (RAF) units are the best match for which sites. We will also structured around fewer, more capable fast jets. need to take into account the potential changes in the This Statement provides detail of our intent on balance between the Regular and Reserve forces I have future Armed Forces basing and rationalisation of the also announced today. And there will be a need for the Defence estate. appropriate level of engagement with local authorities, This has been a complex piece of work. It addressed including the preparation of sustainability assessments the decision to accelerate the return of the 20,000 and the other work needed to meet our obligations. personnel still in Germany, plus their dependants, to This means that some uncertainties remain, particularly the UK and the formation of the Army into five about the timescales in which the necessary moves will Multi-Role Brigades (MRBs). It took into account the take place. But our strategic objective and the key footprint of the Armed Forces around the UK and the building blocks of our plan are clear. I will set these planned changes to the RAF force structure. A number out, together with indicative timescales we are currently of other initiatives, such as the future location for assuming for planning purposes. Defence technical training and the restructuring of There is already a concentration of the Army in the the Army’s non-deployable regional footprint, have south-west of England, around Salisbury and around also had significant estate implications. Finally, it has Catterick in Yorkshire. These will make up three of also taken account of the need to realise receipts from the five MRBs. high value sites Defence no longer required to help One of the two remaining MRBs to be formed from address the black hole in the Defence budget left by the units returning from Germany will be based in the previous Government. Scotland. The centre of gravity of the Brigade will be Basing affects a wide range of interested parties in the central Lowlands. The key sites that are anticipated across Defence. Experts from across the Department to be used are Kirknewton, which we propose to and all three of the Armed Services were consequently develop into a major Army base, and Glencorse. Other involved in the study. Throughout the process the MRB units will be moved into Caledonia and, eventually, Ministry of Defence (MOD) has been very clear and Arbroath, with the long-term plan being to bring the consistent about the criteria used—above all what is bulk of the Royal Marines together in the south west best for the Defence and Security of the UK and what of England. A site will also be used at Albemarle makes overall military sense. We looked at what was Barracks, Northumberland. We will aim to move the best for those serving in our Armed Forces, and their first unit into Kirknewton in 2016-17, with units probably families. We also recognised that Defence decisions moving into Glencorse and Caledonia a year earlier. have broader regional, economic, and social consequences. We will plan to move the Royal Marines out of Arbroath Finally, the resulting plan must of course be affordable around 2015-16, with a unit from Germany moving in and offer value for money for the taxpayer. shortly thereafter. The starting point for the review of basing has been RAF Marham will remain as a base for Tornado the military requirement. Units which are part of GR4 and we have decided that we will build up the larger formations have to be close enough together Typhoon force at Lossiemouth, retaining that station geographically to be able to work and train effectively for the long term as a RAF base, providing the location and to create the formation coherence necessary for for the Northern Quick Reaction Alert missions. We successful combat operations. To do so, they need will start preparing the infrastructure at Lossiemouth access to suitable training areas of the right size, and to receive the Typhoon force straight away, and would with the right terrain, so they can prepare for deployment. aim to start to redeploy aircraft there in 2013. We will continue to redeploy aircraft over the following years We have considered the impact of the proposed as space becomes available. changes on Service personnel and their families. Under the Armed Forces’ New Employment Model, the Army Although Leuchars will cease to be an RAF base it aims to base personnel close to a number of units so will remain in military use and will be used to base two they can change post without their family needing to major Army units and a formation headquarters. Our move home, and close enough to an urban centre for hope is to move the headquarters to Leuchars no later their families to have access to jobs and education and than 2014, with the major units thereafter in the to the housing market. This will allow greater stability, period 2015-2017. This will ensure continuity of the which is important for the welfare of our Armed military presence in Fife and minimise the impact of Forces and their families, and to continuing the the changes on the local economy. Government’s commitment to rebuilding the Armed We are also planning to place Army units in Kinloss Forces’ Covenant. in around 2014-15, subject to further detailed planning. The Defence of the United Kingdom, and wider The MRB centred in Scotland will require a new military tasks, including the capacity to support the training area and the MoD is grateful for the positive civil authorities in times of crisis, requires a strong engagement being taken forward with the Scottish military presence across the entire country. We have Government to achieve this. We will continue to engage also considered the impact of changes on local with the Scottish Government to develop firm plans, WS 113 Written Statements[18 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 114 including the confirmation of a specific site. Overall, cater for heavier equipments and all-arms training. this is good news for Scotland with overall force levels Detailed planning and Trades Union consultation will increasing. now commence on the basis of our intent to complete The other MRB will be based in the east of England the disbandment by 2013. While this will result in a centred on the former RAF base at Cottesmore (in reduction in the current troop levels in Northern Ireland, Rutland). The RAF will vacate Cottesmore in 2013, with some units being amalgamated within different and we anticipate the first unit coming back from Brigades and others disbanded, we continue to consider Germany should arrive the following year. We also options for future basing in Northern Ireland consistent intend to use other former RAF bases and existing with our wider re-basing plans. We remain committed Army bases including North Luffenham, in Rutland, to maintaining a permanent military garrison in Northern where we aim to bring the first unit back in about Ireland. As part of the implementation planning we 2015-16, Bassingbourn, in Cambridgeshire, with the will now undertake, we will examine what alternative first unit arriving back around 2016-17, and Woodbridge, military uses can be made of the sites which are no in Suffolk, where the first unit is unlikely to arrive longer required for 19 Light Brigade. back before 2017-18. Routine business on basing and further work on Other sites that are anticipated to be used to disposals will continue. Stafford will become home to accommodate Army units returning from Germany two additional Signal Regiments in the period 2015-18. are Aldegrove in Northern Ireland, with the aim of a This will be done in close consultation with the German unit arriving in 2015, and Pirbright where we are authorities, which will continue as the Army now planning for units from Germany to arrive in 2013. draws up its plans for how to draw down from Germany in a sensible and coherent way. Defence must also continue to look to make the most efficient use of the Defence estate and the process RAF Lyneham is the preferred location for future will continue to identify and dispose of sites that are Defence Technical Training. This confirms that the no longer needed. Those sites which can be sold, Department will withdraw from Arborfield, in Berkshire especially high-value sites, will deliver much needed and Bordon, in Hampshire, releasing the sites for sale receipts to the Defence budget. We also need to make by 2014-15 at the latest. This announcement in no way sure we are making maximum use of those sites which threatens the existing Defence presence at St Athan. remain. The decision has therefore been taken to There are no plans to move or reduce the 300 technical vacate and dispose of Craigiehall, Redford and Dreghorn training posts as part of the rationalisation to Lyneham. barracks in Edinburgh. We will aim to achieve these Indeed plans to relocate additional Defence units to disposals by 2014-15 at the latest. We also plan in the St Athan are being developed, and if those plans come same timescale to vacate and dispose of Waterbeach to fruition, they will bring a major uplift in employment in Cambridgeshire which, subject to the necessary at that base. We intend to make an announcement planning consents, will support the Government’s broader before the end of the year. aim of increasing the supply of new housing. The As noted above, 160 Brigade will also continue to units currently based at these sites will, as appropriate, be in Wales at Brecon. be accommodated at other locations. Finally, even with the decisions to use the former This conclusion also paves the way for a number of RAF bases to the greatest extent possible, the demand other estate-related initiatives to proceed. for civilian workforce at RAF Kinloss, Cottesmore In accordance with Strategic Defence and Security and Lyneham will be reduced. This, combined with Review (SDSR) direction it is proposed that the Army’s the need to match skills to jobs, means that around four regional divisional headquarters will be replaced 545 posts in total will be lost. Consultation has been by a single UK support command. The new formation, under way with Trade Unions on the drawdown of commanded by a Major General, will be known as RAF Kinloss, Lyneham, Cottesmore and much work Headquarters Support Command and it will be based has been done to help individuals to assess their future in Aldershot. Its creation will lead to the disbandment options. Staff have been encouraged to apply for MoD of Headquarters 2nd Division in Edinburgh, Voluntary Early Release (VERS), and many have taken Headquarters 4th Division at Aldershot and Headquarters up that opportunity. However, to manage the drawdown 5th Division at Shrewsbury in 2012. Savings at the of the Stations efficiently, it is necessary to introduce a Regional Brigade level will be made through structural redundancy scheme, which will commence with voluntary changes to each of the 10 regional brigade Headquarters redundancy terms. Consultation with Trade Unions and to HQ London District, together with their supporting on the redundancy scheme will take place very shortly. structures rather than closing individual Brigade The detailed planning work, including the investment Headquarters. required to adapt sites, will now get under way based Another of the decisions from the SDSR was to on this strategic direction. The Ministry of Defence reduce the Army by one deployable Brigade as part of will now begin the process of detailed planning and the measure to restructure towards five MRBs, replacing the appropriate and necessary engagement with the the current mix of armoured, mechanised and light devolved Administrations and local authorities concerned brigades. Having considered the various options, we around the country. have concluded that 19 Light Brigade and its constituent Further work will be done to draw up individual units, currently based in Northern Ireland, is the most project plans and determine the timing and sequencing logical option from a military judgement for disbandment of the Army moves, and this may affect some of the as it is not well suited to become an MRB, nor do the indicative timescales set out here. Once completed, existing basing and training facilities in Northern Ireland this will deliver the military requirement for basing WS 115 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 116 and estate, which will facilitate our work to maximise I am, therefore, pleased to announce that we will the effectiveness of our Armed Forces under the adaptable work in partnership with the Department for Communities posture set out in the SDSR. It will rebalance the and Local Government on developing new forms of Defence footprint across the UK, offer stability to our support for those who need informal, community-based Armed Forces, and deliver better value for money for learning of English. the taxpayer. I am placing a copy of the impact assessment in the Libraries of the House. Education: ESOL Statement Elections: Co-ordinated Online Record of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Electors Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Statement Wilcox): My honourable friend the Minister of State for Skills and Lifelong Learning, has today made the following Statement. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord I am today publishing the equality impact assessment McNally): My honourable friend the Minister for of provision of English for Speakers of Other Languages Political and Constitutional Reform (Mark Harper) (ESOL) training, which I ordered earlier this year. I has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. did so because of my determination that necessary additional cost effectiveness should not unduly The previous Government legislated for the disadvantage vulnerable individuals in vulnerable Co-ordinated Online Record of Electors (CORE) in communities. the Electoral Administration Act 2006 and the Political Parties and Elections Act 2009. CORE was intended Furthermore, I have asked the Association of Colleges to provide a single source of electoral registration to advise on developing with key providers an effective information for authorised users, principally to provide methodology for targeting funds at settled communities political parties with a system that would help them in which language barriers inhibit individual opportunity meet their donation reporting obligations. The CORE and community cohesion. Given the respective work service was to be managed by a new public body, a that Lord Boswell and Baroness Sharp are doing on corporation sole, established for the purposes of being Adult Literacy and Colleges in Communities I have the CORE keeper. asked that they are involved in this work. The cost of building the CORE system was estimated Simultaneously, we will devise means by which the to be £11.4 million and £2.7 million per annum to run quality of ESOL can be measured more effectively thereafter. with a new emphasis on familiar benefits, progression to further learning and employment. I will discuss The Government have decided not to pursue the measurements of quality with Ofsted. project. We do not believe that establishing this system is proportionate, cost effective or consistent with the By targeting public funding on those in greatest Government’s policy on databases and reducing the need, and setting higher standards for providers, our number of non-departmental public bodies. We will reforms will make ESOL provision work better for continue to consider more cost effective ways to improve learners, employers, and taxpayers. the processes and procedures for political parties to Between 2001 and 2005 ESOL enrolments tripled, report donations. and government spending peaked at £271 million. Despite policy introduced in 2006-07 to limit automatic fee remission to those on income-related benefits, by 2008-09 spending had only fallen to £250 million. We are, therefore, determined to continue to regain control Gambling: Remote Gambling of spending by introducing the further measures. Statement From August this year, full government funding for ESOL courses will be available only for people on jobseeker’s allowance and employment support allowance The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord (Work Related Activity Group) to help them find Sassoon): My honourable friend the Economic Secretary work. As part of a broader move towards rebalancing to the Treasury (Justine Greening) has today made the the investment in skills between Government, the employer following Written Ministerial Statement. and the learner, other eligible learners will be expected On Thursday 14 July, the Minister for Tourism and to make a contribution towards their course fees. Heritage (John Penrose) announced that he proposes It is unacceptable that the public purse pays for free that the Gambling Act should be amended so that English Language training for people who have come remote gambling is regulated on a point of consumption here to take up work—companies that recruit abroad basis. Under this proposal all operators, whether from must take full responsibility for that decision. here or abroad, will be required to hold a Gambling But I know that, in particular, there are women and Commission licence to enable them to transact with families who rely on community-based English language British consumers. I will review the case for changing to help them communicate with their children’s schools, the taxation regime in line with John Penrose’s proposal as well as opening the door to other public services. and taxing operators on the basis of customer location. WS 117 Written Statements[18 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 118

Health: Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary and treatments their doctor advises they need by Disease and Asthma establishing a closer link between the price of a new branded medicine and the value which it offers in Statement terms of benefits to patients, reflecting unmet need, therapeutic innovation, and benefit to society. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, We have committed to honouring the terms of the Department of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable Pharmaceutical Price Regulation Scheme 2009 until friend the Secretary of State for Health (Andrew its expiry, but there is a need to reform the way in Lansley) has made the following Written Ministerial which we pay for medicines from 2014 onwards. The Statement. current system of pricing medicines does not promote I am publishing today an Outcomes Strategy for innovation or patient access in the way that we are Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease and Asthma. looking for. As we have made clear through the The Outcomes Strategy for Chronic Obstructive establishment of the cancer drugs fund prior to 2014, Pulmonary Disease and Asthma identifies the overarching we are enabling NHS clinicians to have better access objectives that will help transform respiratory care in to the medicines required for their patients. England. The outcomes strategy will help local One hundred and eighty eight consultation responses commissioners to identify the key dimensions of a were submitted by a wide range of organisations and quality service, and to complement other related local individuals. The Government’s response to the and national initiatives, such as the clinical guidelines consultation provides a summary of the responses developed by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence received. There was broad support for the concept of a and the Public Health and NHS Outcomes Frameworks. value-based pricing system for new medicines, and for The strategy does not define how each aspect of the objectives set out in the consultation document. care should be delivered. We think services need to be Many responses welcomed the broader approach proposed sensitively planned and appropriately delivered in response for the assessment of new medicines’ value, while also to the needs of each local community. acknowledging the complexity involved in carrying out such assessments. Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) affects over 3 million people in England, with one in The Government’s response confirms our intention eight people over 35 having COPD that has not been to introduce value-based pricing in 2014. We want the properly identified or diagnosed. One person dies arrangements that we put in place from 2014 to ensure from COPD every 20 minutes in England, around that NHS patients have consistently good access to 25,000 deaths a year. Too often people are diagnosed effective, clinically appropriate medicines, wherever late in the course of the disease when the disease is they live. The current funding direction requiring NHS severe and disabling. More than 5 million people commissioners in England to fund drugs and treatments receive treatment for asthma, with around 1,000 deaths in line with NICE’s recommendations is designed to a year, the majority of which are preventable. achieve this, and it is one of our key objectives for value-based pricing. As we have developed the strategy we have had extensive engagement with people with COPD and The response highlights our intention, set out in the asthma and their carers. The strategy offers a real Government’s response to the Future Forum report, opportunity to make a difference to people with respiratory to maintain the effect of the funding direction in the disease. With better-coordinated and integrated services value-based pricing arrangements, to ensure that the we can provide care that better meets the complex NHS in England consistently funds medicines with a needs of people with these conditions. value-based price. The NHS will be required to fund The Outcomes Strategy for Chronic Obstructive drugs already recommended by NICE, as well as drug Pulmonary Disease and Asthma has been placed in the treatments subject to the value-based pricing regime. Library. Copies are available for honourable Members This means patients will continue to have the legal from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the right to clinically appropriate, cost-effective drugs and Printed Paper Office. treatments as set out in the NHS constitution and accompanying handbook. The response confirms that, in relation to the scope Health: Medicines of value-based pricing and the key elements of the Statement value-based pricing assessment, we intend to pursue an approach in line with the proposals set out in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, consultation document. The response also acknowledges Department of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable that significant work remains to develop the value-based friend the Secretary of State for Health (Andrew pricing system, in particular, as regards how to measure Lansley) has made the following Written Ministerial and assess the value of new medicines. Statement. The response emphasises that we want our work to I am publishing today A new value-based approach be informed by the best available evidence, and that we to the pricing of branded medicine—the Government’s look forward to continued positive and productive response. engagement with the full range of interested stakeholders The consultation document set out this Government’s as our work progresses. proposals for introducing a system of value-based The consultation provided an important opportunity pricing for medicines, as stated in the coalition agreement. for different groups to contribute their views on our The system will enable patients to access the medicines proposed approach, to inform key principles at the WS 119 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 120 heart of value-based pricing and to signal their interest The new system should reduce councils’ dependency in engaging with further work to design and implement on central government and ensure they channel their the new system. energies into investing in local growth, rather than, as We are grateful to all those who responded, and now and as illustrated in these written representations, believe that the Government response to the consultation focusing on lobbying for more resources at the expense represents an important next step in the process of of other local authorities. developing a new system that is stable and sustainable This Statement updates the number of responses for both the NHS and industry, and delivers improved given in the Written Ministerial Statement of 31 January outcomes for patients through better access to effective 2011 about the consultation on the provisional local medicines. government finance settlement for 2011-12. Responses A copy of the Government response to the consultation were received from 230 local authorities. has been placed in the Library. Copies are available to Background honourable Members from the Vote Office and to The last Government left the biggest budget deficit noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. in our peacetime history—with the state forecast to borrow £146 billion a year in 2010-11, or £400 million being borrowed every single day. The coalition Jobcentre Plus: Annual Report and Government’s savings will help eliminate the structural Accounts current deficit by 2014-15. This will help keep interest Statement rates down, restore economic stability and reduce the amount of taxpayers’ money that would otherwise be spent on debt interest. As with a credit card bill, the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, longer one leaves to pay the debt off, the worse it gets. Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My If a Government live beyond their means, it will mean right honourable friend the Minister of State, Department higher taxes or deeper spending reductions in the for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling) has made the future. following Written Ministerial Statement. Councils account for around a quarter of all public I am pleased to announce that the Jobcentre Plus expenditure, so they must play their part in the coalition annual report and accounts for 2010-11 will be laid Government’s determination to tackle the deficit. Even before Parliament and published electronically on the so, Ministers made several changes to the way central DWP website later today at: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/ government grant is shared out between authorities to about%2Ddwp/customer%2Ddelivery/jobcentre%2D achieve a fair and sustainable settlement. plus/publications%2Djobcentre%2Dplus/ The annual report section provides a summary of The coalition Government took into account that Jobcentre Plus’s performance against the business priorities some councils are very dependent on central government and targets in the 2010-11 published business plan grant. The weight given to levels of need in the formula along with structural reform priorities. was increased, so that more money follows socio-economic indicators. Four different bands were set for damping The accounts provide a summary of Jobcentre Plus’s purposes for authorities in different circumstances, administrative and Employment Programme expenditure reflecting their relative reliance on central government for 2010-11. grant. These banded floors ensure that the most dependent authorities get the smallest reductions. Local Government: Finance Ministers also smoothed the impact of the reductions and limited the need for councils to front load their Statement spending reductions. Reductions in overall spending power were limited to no more than 8.8 per cent for all The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department councils in 2011-12. The Transition Grant funding for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): provided to limit losses—some £96 million this year—is My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary going to the most dependent areas. of State (Bob Neill) has made the following Written Taken together, these actions mean that those areas Ministerial Statement. which are more reliant on central government grant In the interests of delivering greater transparency, I are protected from the greatest reductions in grant in am today making available the written representations the local government finance settlement for 2011-12. received by the Department for Communities and Furthermore, Ministers have removed many costly Local Government from Local Authorities during the burdens on local government such as Comprehensive consultation period on the 2011-12 provisional Local Area Assessments, and have removed ring-fencing around Government Finance settlement. Copies of all written all revenue grants except simplified schools grants and representations from local authorities received can be a new public health grant to provide the maximum found at: www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1112/ local flexibility to allocate funding efficiently. These consultreps/index.htm freedoms are accompanied by £300 million of This opening up of this year’s local government capitalisation in 2011-12 to help early restructuring. finance settlement is provided in the context of the The main application deadline was 12 May. It is intended announcement we are making today to change the to issue capitalisation directions in July, nearly six way local government is funded through the local months earlier than in previous years, to provide early retention of business rates from 2013. clarity to authorities. WS 121 Written Statements[18 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 122

Changes in the final settlement asserted that district councils and south-east councils were being treated less favourably than other parts of The local government finance settlement for 2011-12 the country. was approved by the House of Commons on 9 February 2011. Following consultation Ministers made a number Councils frequently maintained that they were so of changes. Key amendments arising out of the deprived that additional funding and weighting should consultation were: be given to them, or that the measures of deprivation did not properly reflect their real level of deprivation. £10 million was added to district formula grant to compensate for concessionary fares changes; The representations, taken together, illustrate the need for reform of the local government finance system. transition grant increased so that no council faced At present, the massively complex and opaque system a reduction in its spending power of more than encourages local authorities to argue for more money 8.8 per cent (from 8.9 per cent before consultation), at the expense of other local authorities, and to champion based on spending power figures as set out at the their particular circumstances and downplay their locality provisional settlement; rather than seize the opportunities for growth and spending power calculations were revised to success. exclude parish precepts, and to reflect local allocations of local economic growth initiative, Machinery of Government housing market renewal and eco-towns grants where one local authority acts as an accountable Statement body for several local authorities; a £1.9 million reduction was made to the quantum The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord of the adjustment for the South Downs National Strathclyde): My right honourable friend the Prime Park; Minister has made the following Statement. I am announcing that the following Machinery of the base position for Bury and other Greater Government changes will take effect from today: Manchester authorities changed to reflect that Bury are no longer lead authority for staff the Government Property Unit will report directly transferred from the Learning and Skills Council, to the Minister for the Cabinet Office and become and; part of the Efficiency and Reform Group within the Cabinet Office; and the spending review announced that £200 million HM Land Registry, the Met Office and Ordnance of capitalisation would be available in 2011-12. Survey will move from the Ministry of Justice, the Following representations from authorities, the Ministry of Defence and the Department for Government decided to increase the amount to Communities and Local Government respectively £300 million, which was announced on 3 March. to the Department for Business, Innovation and Common themes raised by local authorities Skills. Councils believe the current system is far too complex Explanatory notes will be published in the normal and lacks transparency making it very hard for local way. communities to understand. Councils frequently called for changes to be made Marine Environment: Gibraltar to advantage their council at the expense of others. Statement For example, Barnsley Metropolitan Borough Council argued against the large proportion of floor damping that goes to local authorities in London and the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth south-east. By contrast, Basingstoke and Deane Borough Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable Council argued against authorities above the floor friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and having to fund floor damping, calling for a reduction Commonwealth Affairs (William Hague) has made of the scaling factor used for district councils and the following Written Ministerial Statement. opposed the increase in weighting for relative needs. In February 2009 environmental experts in Gibraltar The Association of North East Councils argued identified that the European Commission had adopted that the North East received a worse deal than the the proposal by the Spanish Government to designate south-east, and that deprivation had risen more in the under the Habitats Directive a site of community north-east than London since 2007. importance (SCI). The SCI, named Estrecho Oriental, overlaps the co-ordinates of British Gibraltar Territorial Brighton and Hove City Council disagreed with the Waters (BGTW) and entirely overlaps an existing adopted Area Cost Adjustment for Cumbria, Wolverhampton, UK SCI, Southern Waters of Gibraltar, which is managed Wigan, Liverpool and Oldham, but not to its area. by the Government of Gibraltar (subsequently designated London Councils contended that London has faced by the Government of Gibraltar as a special area of particularly tough settlements over the last five years, conservation—SAC). The UK has sought to reverse and that the area cost adjustment system penalised the adoption of the Spanish site, first through diplomatic councils in high-wage labour markets like London. action with the European Commission and the Southampton City Council objected to being scaled Government of Spain and then through legal action. back in the damping mechanism in order to fund We continue to work closely with the Government of Inner London boroughs. Ashford Borough Council Gibraltar to resolve this issue. WS 123 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 124

The original legal case was launched by the UK in Local TV will provide news and other content for the European General Court (EGC) on 22 December local audiences helping to hold local institutions to 2009. This challenged the European Commission’s account and providing proper local perspectives. This listing of this site as a Spanish site of community framework offers the right incentives to the market to importance. The Government are clear that only the develop innovative business models; provides greater UK can submit sites covering BGTW. Spain cannot certainty and reduced risk for investors; and encourages enforce the management or monitoring of the specific new market opportunities and growth. area in question. There is therefore a risk that, given This framework takes into account a range of views its lack of access to this site, Spain will make decisions provided to the Government through an earlier without accurate scientific information which could consultation and has involved a broad assessment of have detrimental environmental or economic impact the technical, commercial and regulatory requirements on Gibraltar and BGTW. involved. Information on spectrum coverage and possible On 24 May 2011 the EGC ruled the UK’s case locations will be made available in due course. inadmissible on technical grounds, ruling that the UK It is expected the first local television licences will should have challenged the Commission’s original rather be awarded by Ofcom from summer 2012. I have than subsequent confirmatory decision to list the site. placed copies of the framework and associated impact The UK’s rebuttal stated that due to the Commission’s assessment in the Libraries of both Houses. deficient processes, lack of transparency and consultation, it had been unable to do so within the normal time limit. We have also highlighted that when the UK put Ministry of Defence: Annual Report and forward its Southern Waters of Gibraltar site it did so on the basis of consultation with Spain, which was Accounts insisted on by the Commission. The Commission did Statement not insist that Spain consult the UK before the listing of Estrecho Oriental. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Following extensive consultation and on the basis of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable of legal advice the UK will be appealing against the friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Liam Fox) court’s decision. The Government have a clear has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. responsibility to uphold the UK’s position over the waters around Gibraltar. I want to reassure the people I am today publishing the Ministry of Defence of Gibraltar that we will defend their interests on this (MoD)’s annual report and accounts 2010-11. It provides matter. a comprehensive overview of the department’s financial performance for the year, together with data on some The Government of Gibraltar had also launched specific areas of non-financial performance including their own separate legal action, which the UK supported. factual information on the department’s progress against This was also ruled inadmissible on technical grounds. structural reform and business plan priorities. Copies The Government of Gibraltar are appealing against will be available from the Vote Office, and online from that decision. the MoD website at the following address: www.mod.uk/ I will keep the House informed of further significant DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Researchers/. developments in the case. Northern Ireland: Human Rights Media: Local Television Commission Statement Statement

Baroness Rawlings: My right honourable friend the Lord Shutt of Greetland: My right honourable friend Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Owen Sport (Jeremy Hunt) has made the following Written Paterson) has made the following Ministerial Statement. Ministerial Statement. Following an open recruitment process based on Today, I am publishing a new framework setting merit I have appointed Professor Michael O’Flaherty out proposals to help create a new generation of local as the new chief commissioner of the Northern Ireland TV services across the UK. Human Rights Commission. I am also appointing The framework outlines the steps the Government seven new commissioners to the Northern Ireland intend to take by using available secondary order Human Rights Commission—Grainia Long, Christine making powers and the funding of up to £40 million Collins, John Corey, Milton Kerr, Alan McBride, Marion secured through the licence fee settlement with the Reynolds and Paul Yam. The new chief commissioner BBC to support local TV services. and seven new commissioners will take up their posts The proposals include three statutory instruments: in the early autumn. the first, to reserve sufficient local, low-cost spectrum The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission for carrying the local TV services; the second to create is a key part of the architecture of human rights a proportionate and targeted licensing regime for the protections in Northern Ireland, and an important spectrum and local TV service operators; and the feature of the Belfast agreement. The commission is third, to secure appropriate prominence for the licensed now facing new challenges, not least in fulfilling its local services in television electronic programme guides. remit in a testing economic environment. WS 125 Written Statements[18 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 126

I am confident that these new appointments will and Development Agency for Schools have been prepared ensure that the commission will make a significant in accordance with the 2010-11 Financial Reporting contribution to the advancement and protection of Manual. human rights in Northern Ireland in the coming months In reviewing the accounts I concluded that whilst and years. the accounts had been prepared correctly, the disclosures about exit packages were inconsistent with the disclosures in the departmental resource accounts and with other Pensions non-departmental public bodies for which the department Statement has responsibility.The accounting officers have, therefore, agreed to publish additional information which ensures that the level of disclosure is consistent with that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, shown in the departmental resource accounts for 2010-11. Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My The additional disclosure for the National College right honourable friend the Minister of State, Department for School Leadership is: for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Number of Number of other other The consultation document, A State Pension for the Compulsory departures Compulsory departures 21st Century (Cm 8053) was published on April 4, Exit package redundancies agreed redundancies agreed 2011 and invited organisations and members of the cost band 2010-11 2010-11 2009-10 2009-10 public to respond to proposals for reforming the state <£10,000 8 11 pension system and managing future changes to state £ 10,000 to 9 pension age. £25,000 14 1 The consultation ran from April 4 to June 24, 2011 £25,001 to and during that period, I met with a number of £50,000 organisations to explore our proposals for reform. £50,001 to I will be publishing a summary of the comments £100,000 £100,001 to received from the many different organisations and £150,000 individuals who responded to our proposals by the £150,001 to end of July. £200,000 This document will not constitute a Government £200,001 to response to the consultation. The Government will £250,000 £250,001 to consider in further detail all the responses received £300,000 before taking any decisions about reforming the state £300,001 to 1 pension system. £350,000 A copy of the summary of responses will be available £350,001 to £400,000 on the Department for Work and Pensions’ website at: £400,001 to www.dwp.gov.uk/state-pension-21st-century. £450,000 Copies will also be available in the Vote Office and £450,001 to the Printed Paper Office. £500,000 £500,001 to I am grateful to all those who responded to the £550,000 consultation. Total Cost £38,000 £642,000 £23,000 £43,000 (£000)

Public Bodies: Resource Accounts The additional disclosure for the Training and Development Agency for Schools is: Statement Number of Number of other other The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Compulsory departures Compulsory departures Exit package redundancies agreed redundancies agreed Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My honourable friend cost band 2010-11 2010-11 2009-10 2009-10 the Minister of State for Schools (Nick Gibb) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. <£10,000 5 23 I have today published and laid before Parliament £10,000 to 11232 £25,000 the annual reports and accounts for the Training and £25,001 to 430 Development Agency for Schools and the National £50,000 College for School Leadership. £50,001 to 322 These reports cover the activities of the Training £100,000 £100,001 to 64 and Development Agency for Schools and the National £150,000 College for School Leadership in 2010-11 and include £150,001 to 11 full sets of accounts for 2010-11. As a company limited £200,000 by guarantee, the accounts for the National College £200,001 to 11 for School Leadership have been prepared in accordance £250,000 with the Companies Act 2006 and International Financial £250,001 to 1 £300,000 Reporting Standards. The accounts for the Training WS 127 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 128

details of these new governance arrangements will be Number of Number of other other announced in due course. Board arrangements will be Compulsory departures Compulsory departures kept under review by the Secretary of State. Exit package redundancies agreed redundancies agreed cost band 2010-11 2010-11 2009-10 2009-10

£300,001 to 1 £350,000 Schools: Testing and Assessment £350,001 to 1 Statement £400,000 £400,001 to £450,000 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for £450,000 to Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My right honourable £500,000 friend the Secretary of State, Department for Education £500,001 to 1 £550,000 (Michael Gove) has made the following Statement. Total Costs £0.019 £3.092 £0.061 £4.186 We are very grateful to Lord Bew and his panel of million million million million head teachers and other experts for their thoughtful, detailed and comprehensive work on their independent These reports have been placed in the Libraries of Review of testing, assessment and accountability at the House of Commons and House of Lords for the Key Stage 2. reference of Members and copies will be made available We believe the recommendations in Lord Bew’s in the Vote Office. They are also available online at the Final Report will lead to a fairer and more effective websites of the National College for School Leadership system. We agree to the principles that underpin the (wvww.nationalcollege.org.uk) and the Training and final report and accept all of the recommendations in Development Agency for Schools (www.tda.gov.uk). full. We have always been clear that external accountability is vital to raising standards and narrowing attainment Royal Parks Agency gaps, and we are pleased that Lord Bew’s report recognises Statement this. While preserving strong accountability, Lord Bew’s recommendations include a number of important changes to the current system. We will encourage all agencies Baroness Garden of Frognal: My honourable friend concerned with assessment and accountability of schools, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, including Ofsted, to take full account of the principles Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose) has made of the report. the following Written Ministerial Statement. We will publish a wider range of data, including I am publishing today a Statement regarding the new progress measures and three-year rolling averages, future governance of the eight Royal Parks and the which will give a more rounded picture of school Royal Parks Agency performance while allowing parents easier access to In my Ministerial Written Statement to both Houses the information they need about their child. This on 18 January 2011, I outlined how the Government aligns with our commitment to transparency and plans were committed to transferring more responsibility to make as much information as possible available to for the management of the eight royal parks to the the public. Greater London Authority (GLA) and to ensuring We also agree the recommendation to extend the that Londoners had a voice in how the parks are time frame in which pupils who are absent on the day managed. of a test can sit it, and will trial an extension to a week. I have now considered a range of options for how This will apply to all pupils at the end of Key Stage 2 best to achieve our objective of greater accountability in 2012. An evaluation at the end of the test cycle will to the GLA and to park users and local residents. I do determine whether the extension will become permanent. not believe that primary legislation is necessary to We welcome the fact that Lord Bew has considered transfer responsibility for the day-to-day management the testing and assessment arrangements in each subject of the parks. Instead, I believe that it is possible to from the point of view of what is educationally most achieve an outcome that allows the mayor and local appropriate. We acknowledge the problems with the interests to have a significant say in how the Royal current writing test and agree that summative teacher Parks are managed which is also cost effective. assessment is the most appropriate way to assess writing Our intention is that Crown ownership of the Royal composition. External moderation of that assessment Parks will be maintained. The Royal Parks will remain will be important to ensure it is recognised as reliable an executive agency of DCMS and the responsibility and robust. We will develop and trial moderation of the Secretary of State but we will create a new arrangements next year and introduce them on a Royal Parks Board to provide a voice for the mayor statutory basis from 2013. Teacher assessment judgments and for London in how the parks are managed. The of writing composition will form the greater part of chair and board will be appointed by the mayor, with any overall writing judgement once the new arrangements board members including representatives of the London are in place from 2013 onwards. boroughs and the Royal Household. At the same time, The Standards and Testing Agency will work with we will task the board to develop and recommend new the profession on the design, implementation and consultation processes that will give local communities administration of a test of essential skills which children and users of the parks a role in decision-making. The need to master to become fluent, confident writers, WS 129 Written Statements[18 JULY 2011] Written Statements WS 130 such as spelling, grammar, punctuation and vocabulary, Taxation: Isle of Man and consider the potential to include an assessment of handwriting in the test. We will trial the test in 2012 Statement and intend to introduce it in 2013. In 2012 interim arrangements for writing assessment The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord will be required. Those arrangements should be in line Sassoon): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary with the principles in Lord Bew’s report and ensure to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today made the that results are as reliable and robust as possible. following Written Ministerial Statement. Teacher assessment judgements of writing composition The Treasury has agreed a revision to the formula will make a significant contribution to the overall governing the sharing of joint indirect tax revenues writing results. We also believe some external testing under the 1979 Customs and Excise Agreement with will be required alongside teacher assessment. We will the Isle of Man. discuss the detailed arrangements for 2012 with the The new formula is intended to give the Isle of Man profession and confirm them to schools at the start of the revenue that it would collect if they ran their own the new school year. indirect tax system, while providing the Isle of Man We will retain externally-marked tests in reading with generous transitional payments. In 2010 the Isle and mathematics, and will refine them over time to of Man changed the way that it measured its national ensure they are accessible to all groups of pupils. We income to more closely follow international standards. will also retain the current system of sample testing in Under the previous formula this would have implied a science. significant increase in the Isle of Man’s share of joint We agree that more emphasis should be placed on revenues. The new formula provides the Isle of Man teachers’ own assessments of their pupils. We accept with a share of joint indirect tax revenues similar to Lord Bew’s recommendation that teacher assessment that which the UK Treasury expected when the last should continue to be reported alongside test data, formula was agreed in 2009. and that schools should be required to submit teacher The Treasury welcomes the recognition by Isle of assessment judgments before pupils sit the tests. Man Government that the previous revenue sharing We recognise that Lord Bew’s recommendations formula was not sustainable and we are pleased that a represent substantial reform to the current Key Stage 2 new formula has been agreed, following negotiations. testing, assessment and accountability system. We want The Treasury hopes that it provides a stable and secure to act as quickly as possible to take the recommendations basis for the long-term future of the Customs and forward. However, change of this scale needs to be Excise agreement between the United Kingdom and implemented carefully to ensure the positive impact is the Isle of Man. realised for all involved. We will implement the recommendations as quickly as is practicable. We are today placing my department’s full response Terrorism Act 2000 (Remedial) Order 2011 to Lord Bew’s Final Report in the House Library. Statement

Supply and Appropriation (Main The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Estimates) Bill Browning): My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Theresa May) has Statement today made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord On 16 March, I made a remedial order under the Sassoon): I have made a Statement under Section powers conferred on me by Section 10(2) and paragraph 19(1)(a) of the Human Rights Act 1998 that, in my 1(1) of Schedule 2 to the Human Rights Act 1998. view, the provisions of the Supply and Appropriation That order replaced stop and search powers previously (Main Estimates) Bill are compatible with the convention available to the police under Sections 44 to 47 of the rights. A copy of the Statement has been placed in the Terrorism Act 2000, with a significantly circumscribed Library of the House. set of powers, and provisions for an associated Code of Practice. Taxation: Double Taxation As required by paragraph 4(2) of Schedule 2 to the Human Rights Act, I have placed a Statement in the Statement House Library to summarise the representations made during the 60 days since that order was made. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today made the Terrorism Act 2000 and Part 1 of the following Written Ministerial Statement. Terrorism Act 2006: Independent Review A new double taxation convention with the Republic Statement of Armenia was signed on 13 July 2011. The text of the convention has been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and will be made available on HM Revenue The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness and Customs’ website. The text will be scheduled to a Browning): My right honourable friend the Secretary draft Order in Council and laid before the House of of State for the Home Department (Theresa May) has Commons in due course. today made the following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 131 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 132

I am pleased to announce that Mr David Anderson In addition to issuing licences relating to a specific QC has completed his first annual report as independent person, the Treasury may also issue general licences, reviewer of terrorism legislation, on the operation of which apply to all persons designated under a particular the Terrorism Act 2000 and Part 1 of the Terrorism regime or regimes. Licences are granted where there is Act 2006 in 2010, which will be laid before the House a legitimate need for such transactions to proceed and today. where they can proceed without giving rise to any risk I am grateful to David Anderson for his detailed of terrorist finance. report and will carefully consider his recommendations. No general licences were issued this quarter under Following consultation within my department and the Act. with other relevant departments and agencies, I will Legal Challenges place the Government’s response to his recommendations in the Library in the autumn. Two legal challenges against designations made under both the Terrorism (United Nations Measures) Terrorism: Finance Order 2009 and the Act were ongoing in the quarter under review. Statement UN Al-Qaida and Taliban asset-freezing regime The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The UN Al-Qaida and Taliban asset-freezing regime, Sassoon): My honourable friend the Financial Secretary established under UNSCR 1267, is implemented in to the Treasury (Mark Hoban) has today made the the UK by Council Regulation (EC) No 881/2002. following Written Ministerial Statement. Enforcement measures are provided for in the UK’s Under the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 Al-Qaida and Taliban (Asset-Freezing) Regulations (the Act), the Treasury is required to report quarterly 2010. to Parliament on the operation of the UK’s asset- freezing regime mandated by UN Security Council In June, the UN adopted resolutions 1988 and 1989 Resolution 1373. which split the UNSCR 1267 Al-Qaida and Taliban regime into two separate regimes. The UN also introduced This is the second report under the Act and it 1 welcome new due process reforms including strengthening covers the period from 1 April 2011 to 30 June 2011 . the role of the Ombudsperson and enhancing This report also covers the operation of the UN arrangements for reviewing designations. Al-Qaida and Taliban asset-freezing regime. 2 This quarterly report covers the combined Al-Qaida As of 30 June 2011, a total of just under £230,000 and Taliban 1267 regime. Future reports will cover the of funds were held frozen in the UK. This covers operation in the UK of the 1989 Al-Qaida regime and funds frozen under the UK’s domestic terrorist asset- the 1373 regime only, as the Taliban regime will be freezing regime, mandated by UN Security Council taken forward on a basis similar to other country Resolution 1373, and also funds frozen under the UN sanctions. Al-Qaida and Taliban asset-freezing regime, mandated by UN Security Council Resolution 1267. As of 30 June 2011, a total of 84 accounts containing 3 UK’s domestic terrorist asset-freezing regime under just under £110,000 were frozen in the UK under the the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 Al-Qaida and Taliban asset-freezing regime. As of 30 June 2011, a total of 85 accounts containing Designations just over £120,000 were frozen in the UK under the During this quarter, the EU added three people to domestic terrorist asset-freezing regime. No new accounts the list in Annex 1 to Council Regulation (EC) No 881/ were frozen during the quarter. 2002. Operation of the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 Six people were delisted during the quarter, none of Asset freezing designations and reviews whom had UK connections. In the period 1 April 2011 to 30 June 2011, the Licences Treasury made no new designations under the Act and did not conduct any reviews of existing designations. Seven individual licences were issued in this quarter Licensing in relation to three persons subject to an asset freeze Maintaining a fair and effective licensing system is under the Al-Qaida and Taliban asset-freezing regime. crucial to ensuring the overall proportionality of the One of these licences was revoked. asset-freezing regime, whether the individuals concerned Proceedings are subject to an asset freeze in accordance with a UN In the quarter to 30 June 2011, no proceedings were or EU listing, or domestic designation. A licensing initiated in respect of breaches of the prohibitions of framework is put in place for each person in the UK the Act or the Al-Qaida and Taliban (Asset-Freezing) on a case-by-case basis. The key objective of the Regulations. licensing system is to strike an appropriate balance 1 The detail that can be provided to the House on a quarterly between minimising the risk of diversion of funds to basis is subject to the need to avoid the identification, directly or terrorism and implementing asset freezes in a indirectly, of personal or operationally sensitive information. proportionate way.Licences contain appropriate controls 2 This figure reflects the most updated account balances available to protect against the risk of the diversion of funds for and includes approximately $64,000 of suspected terrorist funds terrorist finance. frozen in the UK. This has been converted using exchange rates A total of four licences were issued this quarter as of 05/07/11. under the Act in relation to three persons subject to an 3 Includes approximately $64,000 of suspected terrorist funds in asset freeze. the UK. WA 223 Written Answers[18 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 224

In addition, the UK Government have been at the Written Answers forefront of efforts to convince the Commission that Monday 18 July 2011 simply relying on infraction proceedings against non- compliant member states will not be enough to deal with the negative impact that non-compliance would Abortion cause. We have urged the Commission to put additional Questions measures in place to prevent market disturbance and to protect compliant producers. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool We would favour a time-limited intra-Community To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they trade ban which would restrict the sale of eggs from have any plans to review the upper time limit for non-compliant systems after 2012 from being exported abortion in the case of disabilities such as cleft outside that member state’s border and the strengthening palate and Down’s syndrome. [HL10877] of the requirement for each member state to share the data in the annual returns it sends to the Commission The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department under the EU marketing regulations, giving details of of Health (Earl Howe): It is accepted parliamentary each producer, which system they use, their production practice that proposals for changes in the law on abortion code et cetera, so that these data could then be used by come from Back-Bench members and that decisions member states to identify non-compliance. We will are made on the basis of free votes. continue to keep up the pressure on the Commission to act and act quickly. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool We are also in the process of drawing up an To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to enforcement strategy which we will be discussing with the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 4 July (WA 1) industry representatives and retailers and how we can in which the government definition of family planning best work together to take things forward. is provided, whether such a designation is appropriate for a service or clinic which provides abortion. Animal By-products [HL10879] Question Asked by Baroness Jenkin of Kennington Earl Howe: Abortion can only legally be performed in the circumstances set out in the Abortion Act 1967 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they as amended. All abortion service providers should support the proposal to lift the European Union-wide also provide the full range of contraception. The ban on feeding animal by-products to chickens and “Service Specification—Termination of Pregnancy”, pigs. [HL10820] which forms part of the Guidance on the NHS Standard The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Contract for Acute Services 2010-11, a copy of which for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): has already been placed in the Library, states that The European Commission’s TSE Roadmap 2 published women should receive an effective method of in July 2010 sets out the way forward for TSE controls contraception of their choice which suits their health and includes the future policy option of permitting and other needs regardless of whether an abortion processed animal protein (PAP)derived from non-ruminants goes ahead. such as chickens and pigs to be fed to non-ruminant farmed animals which are omnivores or carnivores. Agriculture: Eggs This would be subject to strict segregation rules to maintain the existing ban on intra-species recycling of Questions PAP and the validation of a test to determine the Asked by Lord Corbett of Castle Vale species of origin of PAP in animal feed. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps The European Commission has now made a specific they propose to take to ensure that eggs and egg proposal to allow non-ruminant PAP to be fed to products provided from battery cages by other non-ruminant farmed animals of a different species— European Union producers after 1 January 2012 allowing, for example, chicken PAP to be fed to pigs or are refused entry into the United Kingdom. fish and pig PAP to be fed to chickens or fish—subject [HL10787] to the conditions set out above. The Government are currently considering this proposal. They have sought To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they views from interested parties and will seek advice on will make representations to the European Commission the food safety implications from the Food Standards to put in place an intra-European Union ban on Agency. trade in eggs and egg products produced from battery cages before such production methods are Animals: Scientific Procedures made illegal after 1 January 2012. [HL10788] Questions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Asked by Lord Wills for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any From 1 January 2012 it will be illegal to keep laying decisions have been taken about changing the nature or hens in conventional cages and, on that basis, marketing frequency of inspections of establishments designated such eggs as class A within the UK will be against the under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. law. [HL10961] WA 225 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 226

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Browning): This would include membership of, or personal or The public consultation on the options for transposing professional interests in, organisations concerned with European directive 2010/63/EU on the protection of either animal protection or the production of animals animals used for scientific purposes seeks views on the or equipment used in scientific procedures on animals. system of inspection of breeders, suppliers and users Inspectors who are not senior civil servants are not of animals. The consultation closes on 5 September 2011. required to make the declaration. However some have No decisions have yet been made on this issue. voluntarily made one where a potential conflict might At present the Animals (Scientific Procedures) be perceived. Inspectorate implements a risk-based approach to inspection and as such the frequency, duration and style of inspection may vary as any relevant risks alter. Armed Forces: Costs Question Asked by Lord Wills Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Toask Her Majesty’s Government whether members of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Inspectorate To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the are required to declare membership of, or personal total cost to date of United Kingdom military or professional interests in, organisations concerned operations in (a) Afghanistan, and (b) Iraq, calculated with either animal protection or the production of on the basis of additional expenditure over what animals or equipment used in scientific procedures would otherwise have been incurred. [HL10943] on animals. [HL10962] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Baroness Browning: Members of the Animals (Scientific of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The annual audited Procedures) Inspectorate who are members of the figures for the net additional costs of military operations Senior Civil Service are required to make a declaration in Afghanistan and Iraq from financial year 2001-02 of potential conflicts of interest every six months. to 2009-10 are shown in the following table:

Total spend to £ million 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 date

Afghanistan 221 311 46 67 199 738 1,504 2,623 3,821 9,530 Iraq 0 847 1,311 910 958 956 1,457 1,381 342 8,162

The estimated net additional cost of operations in Bahrain Afghanistan and Iraq for financial year 2010-11 is Questions provided in the following table. Final audited figures will be available in the annual report and accounts, Asked by Lord Bilston which are due to be published shortly. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the announcement by the King of Bahrain 2010-1l £ million that an independent commission will be formed, in conjunction with the United Nations, which will Afghanistan 3,774 inquire into the unrest in Bahrain in February and Iraq 95 March 2011 and make recommendations for restoring harmony and good governance to the kingdom. Armed Forces: Helicopters [HL10765] Question The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Lord West of Spithead Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): As my honourable friend the Minister for the Middle East and North To ask Her Majesty’s Government when will Africa, Alistair Burt, said on 30 June, the UK Government RN Sea King mark 4 crews from the Commando welcome the establishment by His Majesty the King of Helicopter Force start to transition to Merlin mark 3 an independent commission, composed of international as part of the plan to re-equip Commando Helicopter figures, to look into the events of recent months and Force with Merlin for the Future Force; and how into allegations of abuses of human rights. It is our many crews will be involved in the initial transition. hope that this promising and significant step will lead [HL10870] to concrete progress in addressing the recent serious concerns about the human rights situation in Bahrain. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry We also hope these developments will be complemented of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): It is planned to start by all sides participating in a successful and peaceful transition for Royal Navy and Royal Marines Sea commencement of the national dialogue. King mark 4 crews into Merlin mark 3 after September this year, as part of the plan to re-equip the Commando Asked by Lord Luce Helicopter Force with Merlin for the Future Force To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their 2020. A decision has yet to be taken on the exact assessment of the establishment of an independent number of personnel in this initial transition. international commission by King Hamad of Bahrain WA 227 Written Answers[18 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 228

to investigate the background to the disturbances Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The information requested in Bahrain in February and March and to the falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics commencement of a national dialogue in Bahrain Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. led by the Crown Prince to discuss reform.[HL10781] Letter from Stephen Penneck, Director General for ONS, to Lord Alton of Liverpool, dated July 2011. Lord Howell of Guildford: The UK Government welcome the establishment by His Majesty King Hamad As Director General for the Office for National of an independent commission, composed of international Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent figures, to look into the events of recent months and question asking (a) what was the registered cause of into allegations of abuses of human rights. It is our death, and (b) what secondary references were included hope that this promising and significant step will lead on the certificate, in each case since 2005 where a to concrete progress in addressing the recent serious sufferer of Clostridium sordelli died subsequent to concerns about the human rights situation in Bahrain. infection. (HL11061) We also hope these developments will be complemented Information on deaths involving Clostridium sordellii by all sides participating in a successful and peaceful is not directly available from the statistical information commencement of the national dialogue which brings derived from death registrations. To obtain figures on the genuine political reform needed to ensure long-term deaths related to C. sordellii it would be necessary to stability in Bahrain. identify all deaths with an International Classification of Disease code relating to Clostridium infection, and Banks: Credit Cards then study the text of the death certificate for the word Question “sordellii”. This exercise cannot be completed without disproportionate costs. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon It is not always possible from the information given To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to at death registration to state whether the deceased had the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 7 July a specific infection at the time of death. Internationally (WA 91) concerning charges for credit and debit accepted guidance from the World Health Organisation cards, whether they will answer specifically on charges requires only those conditions that contributed directly for debit cards. [HL11016] to the death to be recorded on the death certificate. Medical practitioners and coroners are not required to The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord record all of the diseases or conditions present at or Sassoon): The payment services directive (2007/64/EC) before death, and whether a condition contributed is a provides that member states may forbid or limit the matter for their clinical judgement. right of the payee (for example, a retailer) to impose charges for the use of any payment instrument, including The number of deaths involving Clostridium difficile debit cards, taking into account the need to encourage registered in England and Wales each year by sex and competition and promote efficient payment instruments. age are published annually on the National Statistics website at: www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp Belfast Agreement ?vInk=14782. 1. Currently it would not be easy to adapt death registration data Question for routine monitoring of C. sordellii as the International Classification Asked by Lord Laird of Disease does not contain a code for this infection. The only way to obtain data is using the methodology described in the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to answer. the Written Answer by Lord Shutt of Greetland on 2. C. sordellii is a rare bacterium that causes pneumonia, endocarditis, 4July(WA 3) concerning the treatment of non-Irish arthritis, peritonitis, and myonecrosis. C. sordellii bacteremia and citizens in the Republic of Ireland, how they monitor sepsis occur rarely. Most cases of sepsis from C. sordellii occur in the implementation of the Belfast agreement patients with underlying conditions. Severe toxic shock syndrome application in the Republic of Ireland, on the basis among previously healthy persons has been described in a small of which they state the agreement is to the benefit number of C. sordellii cases, most often associated with gynaecologic infections in women and infection of the umbilical stump in of the human rights of British citizens living in newborns. Ireland. 3. There is currently no routine surveillance scheme for C. sordellii [HL10826] infections. Lord Shutt of Greetland: The British and Irish Governments meet regularly both at ministerial and Court of the Bank of England official level to discuss issues of mutual interest and Questions concern, including matters relating to the implementation Asked by Lord Myners of the Belfast agreement in each jurisdiction. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Clostridium Sordellii have asked the chairman of the Court of the Bank Question of England why the court has not insisted on an independent review of the Bank’s performance ahead Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool of and during the banking crisis. [HL10913] To ask Her Majesty’s Government (a) what was the registered cause of death, and (b) what secondary The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord references were included on the certificate, in each Sassoon): Government Ministers regularly meet Bank case since 2005 where a sufferer of Clostridium directors, including the chairman of the Court of the sordellii died subsequent to infection. [HL11061] Bank of England, to discuss a range of issues. WA 229 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 230

Asked by Lord Myners Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. they have taken to ensure the independence and competence of the chairman and the independent Letter from Stephen Penneck, Director General for members of the Court of the Bank of England. ONS, to Lord Pearson of Rannoch, dated July 2011. [HL10914] As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Lord Sassoon: Non-executive appointments to the Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government when Court of the Bank of England are subject to a fair, they expect the United Kingdom Balance of Payments open and transparent competition process, which ensures 2010 to be published; and whether it will reflect exports that applicants’ qualifications and skills are appropriately and imports of goods and services which pass through evaluated against the advertised role criteria. Rotterdam and Antwerp. (HL11163) Appointments are regulated by the Office for The United Kingdom Balance of Payments 2010 the Commissioner of Public Appointments and an (including data for 2009) was published in 2010. It can independent assessor sits on both the sift and interview be found at the following web link: http://www.statistics. panels. gov.uk/STATBASE/Product.asp?vInk=1140. Detention: Pre-trial The United Kingdom Balance of Payments 2011 (including data for 2010) is to be published electronically Question on 1 November 2011. Asked by Baroness Whitaker The convention for recording exports and imports To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to of goods and services (e.g. on HMRC customs the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 27 March declarations) is that the partner country recorded is (WA 248), what is their response to the European the country the goods or services first enter after Commission’s Green Paper on pre-trial detention. leaving their country of origin. Therefore, exports or [HL10856] imports that pass through Rotterdam and Antwerp would be recorded as exports to or imports from The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Netherlands and Belgium respectively. McNally): The deadline for responses to the Commission’s Green Paper on detention issues is 30 November. The Ministry of Justice will co-ordinate a government response Economy: Northern Ireland to the consultation and will respond within the deadline. Question Diplomats: Cross-accreditation Asked by Lord Kilclooney Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Asked by Lord Laird consideration they gave to the circulation figures To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many for Johnston Press weekly papers and News Letter countries in which it has accreditation do not allow in Northern Ireland when inviting press to the cross-accreditation of ambassadors; and which are launch event of the consultation paper Relaunching those countries. [HL11039] the Northern Ireland Economy. [HL11143] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): There has not been Lord Shutt of Greetland: For events of this nature an incident, in recent memory, of a proposed cross- the Northern Ireland Office routinely and specifically accreditation of a British head of mission being refused. alerts the Belfast Telegraph, Irish News, News Letter, However, Article 5.1 of the Vienna Convention on Press Association and other news outlets with which Diplomatic Relations makes clear that a state may the NIO has regular contact on UK government issues. refuse accreditation to a head of mission who is accredited to another state. Such a refusal would generally be in relation to a specific proposal for cross-accreditation Embryology and would be dependent on the government policies in Questions place at that time in the state concerned. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool It is not therefore possible to say how many states might under some circumstances object to cross- To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment accreditation. they have made of the reported link between the hyperstimulation of ovaries in women over 35 years Economy: Balance of Payments of age during IVF treatment and genetic abnormalities Question discovered in second stage embryos. [HL10876] Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, expect the United Kingdom Balance of Payments Department of Health (Earl Howe): No assessment for 2010 to be published; and whether it will reflect has been made by the Government of this information. exports and imports of goods and services which This research is ongoing and has not yet been published pass through Rotterdam and Antwerp. [HL11163] in a peer review journal. WA 231 Written Answers[18 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 232

Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Article 69 of European To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Union regulation 1083/2006 of 11 July 2006, which the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 6 July (WA65-6), sets out general provisions on the European regional how many IVF pregnancies have been ended by development fund (ERDF) and other structural funds, abortion since 1991; and why they have made no requires member-state managing authorities to ensure assessment of those figures, including the reasons that projects supported by the ERDF adequately publicise for such abortions, or of the implications for medical this support. European Union regulation 1828/2006 resources. [HL10911] of 8 December 2006 sets out rules for the implementation Earl Howe: There is nothing further I can add to of the ERDF and other structural funds. These rules the information I gave the noble Lord in my Written include the detailed requirements for funding recipients Answer of 7 July 2011 (Official Report, cols. WA95-96). to publicise information on the source of their funding, including statements to that effect in all related documents. It is standard practice for funding providers in general EU: Bank Accounts to ask that their role in supporting a project or organisation Question be recognised and communicated. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon The managing authority may withdraw some or all To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to funding from a beneficiary if the project does not the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 5 July comply with the regulations. This is a financial correction, (WA 43) concerning the disclosure of bank account not a fine and there is no right of appeal under the details to European Union member states, whether regulations. The European Commission also has powers the owners of those bank accounts were informed to impose financial corrections on the basis of that details had been disclosed. [HL11019] examinations it has carried out, but these are generally at operational programme, not individual project, level. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): Under the European Union’s savings directive, financial institutions are required to report savings EU: Membership interest on accounts held by residents of other member Question states to HM Revenue and Customs for automatic Asked by Lord Hylton exchange of information with the relevant member state. Arrangements for keeping account holders informed To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they may vary between financial institutions. will propose that the European Commission adopt a co-ordinated and comprehensive approach to early accession or integration by countries in south-east EU: Environment Council Europe which remain outside the European Union, Question and that this is supported by the European External Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Action Service. [HL10769] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Statement by Lord Henley on 5 July The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth (WS 9) on matters discussed at the Environment Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government Council on 21 June, whether the cost implications are a strong supporter of EU enlargement. We believe for the public sector, the water industry and commerce further EU enlargement is dependent on countries and industry were taken into account before agreements meeting the fair and rigorous accession criteria. Croatia, or prospective agreements were made. [HL11020] Iceland, Montenegro, Macedonia and Turkey are all candidate countries. The EU is also committed to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department European perspective of the western Balkans. My for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): right honourable friend the Minister for Europe, David On 21 June the EU Environment Council adopted Lidington, restated the Government’s support for eventual conclusions that welcomed the Commission’s intention EU membership for the countries of the western Balkans to propose an EU response to water challenges in subject to them meeting the accession criteria, at the 2012, by means of its Blueprint to Safeguard Europe’s EU-Western Balkans Forum on 20 June. The European Water Resources. At this stage, no decisions were taken Commission and the European External Action Service that had cost implications for member states. We will (EEAS) play a useful role in the EU enlargement assess the full cost implications as necessary once the process. The Commission, with input from the EEAS, Commission provides details of the proposed actions. monitors and assesses progress in the reforms necessary for EU membership in those countries with an EU EU: Logo perspective, the result of which is an annual progress Question report on these countries and an annual EU enlargement strategy which suggests the proposed direction of this Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon policy. The UK fully endorses last December’s council To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what conclusions, which stated “that by making solid progress legal authority the European Union is able to fine in economic and political reform and by fulfilling the organisations in receipt of grants from the European necessary conditions and requirements, the remaining Regional Development Fund for failing to display potential candidates in the western Balkans should the European Union logo; and whether there is a achieve candidate status, according to their own merits, right of appeal. [HL11017] with EU membership as the ultimate goal”. WA 233 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 234

Female Genital Mutilation including (a) the extent of permissible hedging in Questions the context of total exposure, (b) the method used to calculate exposure, and (c) any limits on the Asked by Baroness Tonge timing or form of hedging adopted, including choice To ask Her Majesty’s Government what programme of counterparty. [HL10916] of public education is undertaken for refugees who arrive in the United Kingdom from countries where The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord female genital mutilation is prevalent. [HL11005] Sassoon): HM Treasury provides guidance in Managing Public Money (chapter 5 and annexe 5.7) to departments The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness on foreign exchange transactions. In particular, if foreign Browning): The United Kingdom Border Agency (UKBA) exchange transactions form a substantial part of a provides advice to newly arrived refugees on accessing department’s business, its foreign exchange management NHS services. All individuals entering UKBA-arranged policy will need to be agreed with HM Treasury. accommodation are offered health screening. Temporary United Kingdom residents (refugees and asylum seekers whose application is still being considered, Financial Services Bill and anyone who has been lawfully living in the UK for Questions 12 months immediately prior to treatment) are afforded the protections available to permanent UK residents, Asked by Baroness Noakes including access to 15 specialist clinics in the NHS which treat women and girls who have been subjected To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they to female genital mutilation (FGM). These clinics all expect a Joint Committee will be formed for the have trained and culturally sensitive staff who offer a purposes of pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft range of confidential healthcare services for women Financial Services Bill. [HL10970] and girls including reversal surgery. These clinics are open to women to attend without referral from their The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord own doctors. These clinics are funded by local primary Sassoon): The Joint Committee to carry out pre-legislative care trusts. scrutiny of the draft Financial Services Bill will be The Government have also distributed 40,000 leaflets formed when Motions to form the committee have and posters to public sector partners within the UK, been agreed by both Houses. highlighting the issue of FGM. Asked by Baroness Noakes Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 6 July publish information in languages other than English (WA 67), whether the Joint Committee which is to so that refugees and others are aware of the law in be formed for the purposes of pre-legislative scrutiny relation to female genital mutilation in the United of the Financial Services Bill will have the power to Kingdom. [HL11006] recommend that the Bill presented to Parliament is a free-standing Bill rather than one which amends Baroness Browning: The Government have distributed the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, the leaflets and posters to British embassies across Africa Bank of England Act 1998, the Banking Act 2009 to raise awareness among individuals applying to come and other related legislation. [HL10971] to the UK that female genital mutilation is illegal here. At present the Government do not publish such information in languages other than English. Lord Sassoon: The Joint Committee will be able to Asked by Baroness Tonge make recommendations on all aspects of the draft legislation. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what financial and other support they make available for female genital mutilation women’s groups and advocacy Government Departments: Research and groups in the United Kingdom. [HL11007] Data Baroness Browning: The Government chair and run Questions the female genital mutilation (FGM) forum, which Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark allows the voluntary and community sector to meet with policy officials, raise any concerns and discuss To ask Her Majesty’s Government what research current issues. No direct financial support has been and data collection the Department of Transport made available in this financial year. has (a) initiated, (b) terminated, and (c) amended, since 12 May 2010. [HL10299] Finance: Foreign Exchange Question Earl Attlee: A list of research and data collection that has been initiated, terminated and/or amended by Asked by Lord Myners the Department for Transport since 12 May 2010 is To ask Her Majesty’s Government what instructions provided in the table below. Further information is HM Treasury has given to departments of state available on the department’s research management concerning the hedging of foreign exchange exposures, database at http://www.dft.gov.uk/rmd/. WA 235 Written Answers[18 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 236

Research initiated, amended or terminated since 12 May 2010 Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Initiated (I), amended Title (A), terminated (T) To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Henley on 21 June Value of Prevented Fatalities and I (WA 279), what was the variation agreed in the Injuries—Phase 1 project “Using fishery observer data to investigate Advanced Biofuels: the potential for a I UK industry technical interactions and management options for Scenarios for the cost-effective I mixed fisheries”; and why this variation was agreed. deployment of biofuel in the UK road [HL10977] transport sector in 2020 Amendments to the UK Renewable I The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Energy Directive Art 19(2) report on for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): emissions from cultivation of biofuels feedstocks in the UK The contract was varied following a request from the Child media consumption research I contractor. The variation extended the end-date by Christmas 2010 THINK! road safety I three months to ensure that the contractor had sufficient drink drive campaign: post-activity time to complete their agreed obligations. No additional tracking research cost was incurred to the department for this variation. Annual survey of attitudes to THINK! I Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark campaign, road safety and driving behaviour To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Post campaign tracking research for I the Written Answer by Lord Henley on 21 June the THINK! road safety ’Tales of the (WA 279), what was the variation agreed in the road’ campaign, for Children aged 6-11 project “Improving short rotation coppice through Evaluation of the ’Code of Everand’ I breeding and genomics”; and for what reason. road safety online game, for children [HL11047] aged 9-12 Evaluation of THINK! road safety I Lord Henley: Defra funded project NF0424 to establish education resources for early years and a breeding programme for short rotation coppice willow upper primary children led by Rothamsted Research. This was necessary because High Speed 2 Rail Omnibus Survey I (Pre consultation) there was no market to support a breeding programme, Station usage and demand forecasting I and low yields were one of the causes of low commercial at newly-opened railway lines and viability of this dedicated biomass crop, which in stations previous trials demonstrated good adaptation across Peak spreading fares study I the UK. Network Modelling Framework Script I Work at Rothamsted delivered breeding tools and Development improved varieties over five years. Defra indicated that Strategic Fares Model Updating 2 I at the end of this period the research providers should Responsiveness of rail demand I seek joint funding from industry to continue the work. Comparing rail forecasting approaches I The contract variation was a six-month paid extension Implementing the ″revisiting the I ″ agreed with Rothamsted to provide more time for elasticity-based framework study developing a project with industrial partners. However, Van CO Database Matching Project I 2 this did not come into fruition. GB Van CO Database I 2 Rothamsted is pursuing genetic improvement of Freight route choice using GPS data I short rotation coppice willow through the Biotechnology Omnibus survey of public attitudes to I bus travel and Biological Sciences Research Council’s Sustainable Omnibus survey of public attitudes to I Bioenergy Centre. climate change and travel choices Marginal Abatement Cost Curve I Project Health: Contaminated Blood Products Market Maturity and Econometrics I Question Aviation Health Studies I Asked by Lord Corbett of Castle Vale Train Operating Company Cost Model A Emissions Model A To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many claims under the new criteria of the Skipton Fund Evidence Review of the Economics of A Shipping and UK Ports for compensation for contaminated blood products Greenhouse Gas Emissions from A were lodged by the deadline of 31 March 2011; and Shipping Services how many have been accepted. [HL10871] Value of Travel Time Savings (VTTS) T study—Phase 1 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department National Transport Model Version 4 T of Health (Earl Howe): The Skipton Fund received a Commissioning—Phase 4 total of 465 registrations of intent to make a claim in Validation of the NTM using ASHE T respect of individuals in England who died before Funding of the Transport Research T 29 August 2003, prior to the 31 March 2011 deadline. Centre As at 7 July 2011, the Skipton Fund has received 304 Airport Development—Appraisal of T completed application forms, of which 195 have been Sustainability Scoping Document approved for payment. WA 237 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 238

Health: Down’s Syndrome dispensing GPs to be based on the NHS drug tariff, Question and these arrangements have been carried forward for many years. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Recently, the position of the GPC and dispensing To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the doctors has changed. The department has made clear annual figures for the live birth of babies with to representatives of dispensing doctors that it is happy Down’s syndrome for the years 1981, 1991, 2001 to discuss whether new arrangements should be agreed and 2011. [HL10874] in calculating how dispensing doctors might be funded, including ensuring that ongoing efficiencies are secured The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, for the benefit of the National Health Service and Department of Health (Earl Howe): The following taxpayer, given that the latest independent information table provides the number of live births notified to the on earnings for dispensing doctors (the GP earnings National Congenital Anomaly System for England and expenses report for 2008-09, published by the and Wales (NCAS) with a mention of Down’s syndrome NHS Information Centre for Health and Social Care, for the years 1981, 1991 and 2001. Figures are not in January 2011) showed that the average income available for 2011. The number of notifications received before tax of a dispensing GP in England was £123,800, by NCAS is likely to be less than the actual number of which is around £17,000 a year more per GP than infants born with an anomaly. those who are not dispensing doctors. Table: Number of live birth notifications to the National Congenital Anomaly System with a mention of Down’s syndrome1, 1981,1991 and 2 Health: General Practitioners 2001, England and Wales Question Number of Rates per 10,000 live Year notifications and stillbirths Asked by Lord Bradley 19813 465 7.3 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many 19914 424 6.1 5 general practitioners there are per head of the 2001 344 5.8 population for each primary care trust area, in each Notes: of the 10 districts of Greater Manchester.[HL10907] 1 The figure for 1981 includes notifications coded to 758.0 using the International Classification of Diseases, Ninth Edition (ICD-9). The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The figures for 1991 and 2001 include notifications coded to Q90 Department of Health (Earl Howe): The information using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Edition requested is shown in the following table. (ICD-10). Number of general practitioners (GPs), excluding retainers and 2 Births to women resident in England and Wales. registrars, per head of population for primary care trusts (PCTs) 3 Figures taken from Congenital malformation statistics 1981- within Greater Manchester as at 30 September 2010 1985, Series MB3 not, OPCS. All practitioners 4 Figures taken from Congenital malformation statistics 1991, All practitioners (excluding retainers Series MB3 no 7. OPCS. (excluding retainers and registrars) 5 and registrars) headcount per Figures taken from Congenital anomaly statistics: Notifications headcount(1) 100,000 population 2001, Series MB3 no 16 Total specified 1,791 68.0 organisations Health: Drug Tariff Ashton, Leigh And 190 62.0 Question Wigan PCT Bolton PCT 210 79.2 Asked by Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen Bury PCT 116 63.5 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Heywood, 141 68.9 they have to assess the impact of changes to category Middleton and Rochdale PCT M in the drug tariff on dispensing doctors; what Manchester PCT 353 73.0 steps were taken during the last category M review to ensure dispensing doctors’ services were not Oldham PCT 143 65.4 adversely affected; and what structures are in place Salford PCT 169 75.1 to ensure that the dispensing doctors’ sector is not Stockport PCT 193 68.0 Tameside and 147 59.0 adversely affected by changes to category M. Glossop PCT(2) [HL10894] Trafford PCT 141 65.5 Sources: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The NHS drug The Information Centre for health and social care General and Personal Medical Services Statistics. Office for National Statistics, tariff, including category M, forms part of the community 2009 Final Mid-Year Population Estimates (2001 census based), pharmacy contractual framework, and is therefore adjusted May 2010 to reflect revisions to migration methodology: negotiated between the department and the Crown Copyright. Pharmaceutical Services Negotiating Committee. Notes: To date, the General Practitioners Committee Data as at 30 September 2010. (GPC) of the British Medical Association has been (1) The new headcount methodology for 2010 data is not fully content for the value of drug reimbursements paid to comparable with previous year’s data due to improvements that WA 239 Written Answers[18 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 240 make it a more stringent count of absolute staff numbers. commissioning the National Institute for Health and Further information on the headcount methodology is available Clinical Excellence to develop clinical guidelines for in the census publication. Headcount totals are unlikely to equal hip fractures; and technology appraisals covering the the sum of components. primary and secondary prevention of osteoporosis. (2) The PCTs displayed service the 10 districts that constitute Greater Manchester. Please note that Glossop is not in Greater It also includes the development of a best-practice Manchester but is part of Tameside and Glossop PCT and tariff which offers financial incentives to hospitals cannot be separated. meeting quality standards for hip fracture patients GP per head of population figures have been calculated using (including a fracture prevention assessment) and the Office for National Statistics resident population estimates NHS Clinical Knowledge Summaries (formerly The Information Centre for health and social care seeks to PRODIGY) which is aimed at healthcare professionals minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data working in primary and first-contact care, and provides but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations information on osteoporosis prevention and management. providing the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality where changes impact on figures already The department’s guidance on the falls and fractures published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national commissioning toolkit includes prevention of frailty, level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is promotion of bone health and reduction of accidents footnoted in relevant analyses. through encouraging physical activity and healthy lifestyle and reducing unnecessary environmental hazards as one of its four intervention objectives in the context of Health: Orthopaedics local services for falls, falls prevention and fractures. Questions Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Health: Patient Safety To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Question benefit in quality-adjusted life years (QALYs) to patients who have received care which is consistent Asked by Lord MacKenzie of Culkein with the best-practice tariff for hip fracture. [HL10793] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether National Patient Safety Agency rapid response reports are routinely shared with the health departments in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, devolved Administrations. [HL11030] Department of Health (Earl Howe): The aim of the best-practice tariff (BPT) for hip fracture is to reduce unexplained variations and to raise the quality of care The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, and improve outcomes for patients. The BPT is based Department of Health (Earl Howe): The National on elements of care which are consistent with best Patient Safety Agency routinely shares all rapid response practice and the recently published hip fracture guidance reports with the health departments in the devolved from National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Administrations. (NICE). BPT was introduced in April 2010 and data received over the past 12 months have demonstrated a steady increase in the number of patients whose care is Health: Pressure Sores in line with the standards of care required for compliance with the BPT. At this stage, it is not possible to express Question improvements in outcomes in terms of QALYs. The Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton department has commissioned an evaluation of the impact of the introduction of the BPT, which is due to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they report later this year. This report will comment on the will ask the National Institute for Health and Clinical improvement in care for patients, using the most Excellence to draw up guidelines on the prevention appropriate means of measurement. of pressure sores and distribute them to hospitals and nursing homes. [HL11095] Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, they are taking to improve the management of Department of Health (Earl Howe): We understand osteoporosis and fracture risk in primary care. that the National Institute for Health and Clinical [HL10794] Excellence (NICE) has recently initiated a review of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps its clinical guideline on the management of pressure they are taking to improve the proportion of non-hip ulcers in primary and secondary care, published in fracture patients receiving bone-protecting treatments September 2005. following a diagnosis of osteoporosis. [HL10795] The updated guideline will include the amalgamation of NICE’s clinical guideline on the use of pressure- Earl Howe: The department has taken a number of relieving devices for the prevention of pressure ulcers steps to improve the management of osteoporosis in primary and secondary care. Further information is and fracture risk in primary care in a number of at: www.nice.org.uk/guidance/index.jsp ?action=byID&o areas. These include guidance through a commissioning =10972. toolkit to support organisations’ establishment of In addition, NICE is developing a quality standard effective falls and fracture prevention and management; on the management of pressure ulcers. WA 241 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 242

Health: Rural Pharmacies Health: Surgical Instruments Question Questions Asked by Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen Asked by Lord McColl of Dulwich To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they do the Written Answer by the Minister of State for not allow the reuse of stainless steel medical instruments Health, Mr Simon Burns, on 16 June (Official made from the same materials as multi-use Report, Commons, col. 910W), how the implication instruments. [HL10925] that the viability of rural pharmacies is more important To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether single- than patient choice aligns with the Government’s use surgical instruments could be collected and stated principle of “no decision about me without resterilised for donation overseas. [HL10926] me”. [HL10895]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): We fully support Department of Health (Earl Howe): Manufacturers of patients having a choice of pharmaceutical services surgical instruments (medical devices) must designate providers. Patients can take their prescriptions to any them as single-use only or as being suitable for National Health Service pharmacy they wish to have reprocessing. Although a manufacturer may employ their prescriptions dispensed. the same materials in a single-use medical device as However, in more remote and rural areas, NHS in a reusable device, the design of the single-use pharmacies may not always be viable. That is why, to device may not be appropriate to allow for effective ensure adequate access to NHS dispensing services, decontamination and sterilisation of the product. primary care trusts may authorise general practitioners A reusable device must include guidance on the (GPs) to dispense to patients provided certain criteria reprocessing of the product in the instructions for use. set out in regulations are met. Such arrangements have Any medical device that includes a sterilisation process existed for many decades and pre-date the formation must involve a notified body in the validation of this of the NHS. process prior to the application of a CE mark. The current NHS (Pharmaceutical Services) A medical device designated as single-use only will Regulations 2005 as amended implement an agreement not have been validated for reprocessing by the reached in 2001, regarding rural dispensing, between manufacturer and should not be reused. representatives of contractors, the Pharmaceutical Services The reuse of single-use only medical devices carries Negotiating Committee, the General Practitioners additional risks of infection and the possibility that Committee of the British Medical Association and the the equipment will not perform as intended. Dispensing Doctors Association. These regulations In addition, any organisation that donates medical updated and reformed the previous regulatory regime devices for use by a third party outside of the and set out the circumstances under which patients manufacturer’s intended purpose does so at their own who live in designated rural areas are eligible to receive risk. If the medical device causes harm to a patient, dispensing services from their GP. Such arrangements then the civil liability for this would be with the are of course generally subject to the agreement of the supplying organisation. doctor or practice. However, the primary role of NHS general medical practitioners is to provide NHS medical services to their patients. Hillsborough Castle Question Health: Stroke Care Question Asked by Lord Kilclooney Asked by Lord Touhig To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the cost to public funds of the recent social event To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans hosted in Hillsborough Castle by Independent News they have to retain and strengthen the 27 stroke and Media. [HL10779] care networks when the current funding ends in 2012. [HL10791] Lord Shutt of Greetland: There was no cost to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, public funds in relation to the event involving Independent Department of Health (Earl Howe): On 8 July 2011, News and Media, which met all the expenses. Sir David Nicholson, chief executive-designate of the The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland agreed NHS Commissioning Board, published Developing to attend this event as it supported a Northern Ireland the NHS Commissioning Board, a copy of which has Office departmental objective in relation to rebalancing been placed in the Library, which sets out proposals the economy in Northern Ireland. The event provided about how the NHS Commissioning Board will operate. an opportunity for Independent News and Media to It proposes that the NHS Commissioning Board will explore how best it could help promote Northern host clinical networks which will continue to advise on Ireland, through its international network, in order to distinct areas of care, such as stroke. support and promote economic growth. WA 243 Written Answers[18 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 244

House of Lords: Media Training Iraq Question Question Asked by Lord Myners Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions the answer by Lord Sassoon on 6 July, which Ministers they have had with the Governments of Iraq and in the House of Lords have had media training in the United States regarding the restoration of Iraqi answering questions since their appointment; and control over its frontiers, airspace and other aspects what was the total cost involved. [HL10869] of sovereignty. [HL10832]

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: This information is not The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth held centrally by the Cabinet Office. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We have had no recent discussions with the Governments of Iraq or the United States (US) about Iraq sovereignty, since Iraq regained its sovereignty. The US has a Human Rights military presence in Iraq under a bilateral agreement Question which expires in December 2011. The US provides support and training, including to the Iraqi air force Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill to enable it to defend Iraqi airspace. Much of Iraqi To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they airspace is already controlled by the Iraqis, with the intend to ratify Protocol 7 to the European Convention US progressively handing over responsibilities as Iraqi on Human Rights in the light of the amendment capabilities improve. made by the Equality Act 2010. [HL10732] Israel and Palestine The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Questions McNally): When I replied to my noble friend’s Questions on this issue on 11 October 2010 (Official Asked by Baroness Tonge Report, col. WA 39), I said that the Government had To ask Her Majesty’s Government what not made an assessment of the compatibility of United representations they have made to the Government Kingdom law with the seventh protocol to the European of Israel concerning British citizens held at Tel Aviv Convention on Human Rights. That remains the position. Airport who have been refused entry into Israel and In addition, I said the Government would establish a the West Bank of Palestine. [HL11056] commission to consider the case for a UK Bill of Rights, which would incorporate and build on our obligations under the European Convention on Human The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Rights, and that the Government believed any proposal Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): I can confirm 12 British to add to these obligations, for example by ratifying nationals were detained on 8 July at Ben Gurion Protocol 7, should be considered in the context of the Airport. All but one have now returned to the UK, work of the commission. As he is aware, the commission with one being allowed to enter Israel. None of them was established on 18 March 2011 and is due to report was charged. The legal basis for their detention is a no later than by the end of 2012. matter for the Israeli authorities, and for the detainees to follow up through their own lawyer should they wish to. However, our travel advice clearly states that travellers to the Occupied Territories may face difficulties Iran on arrival. They were visited four times by consular Question staff, including a visit by our ambassador. Asked by Lord Hylton Our ambassador was in regular contact with the Israeli Government at a senior level to facilitate the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what quickest possible return of the detainees, and his representations they have made to the Government team were in constant communication to raise and of Iran about their alleged recent shelling of villages resolve issues at the working level. We will follow up and farms in Iraq near the frontier. [HL11014] any allegations of mistreatment with the Israeli authorities. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Baroness Tonge Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are deeply To ask Her Majesty’s Government what concerned about Iran’s recent cross-border shelling in representations they have made to the Government the border region of Kurdistan. This is no clear of Israel concerning the alleged mistreatment of justification for such action, which endangers innocent British citizens held at Tel Aviv Airport. [HL11057] civilians. We will continue to monitor the situation and call on Iran to play a constructive role in Iraq. This includes Iran respecting Iraq’s territorial integrity Lord Howell of Guildford: I can confirm 12 British and the individual rights of the Kurdish people in the nationals were detained on 8 July at Ben Gurion region. Airport. All but one have now returned to the UK, WA 245 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 246 with one being allowed to enter Israel. None of them Media: News International Ltd was charged. The legal basis for their detention is a Question matter for the Israeli authorities, and for the detainees to follow up through their own lawyer should they Asked by Lord Donoughue wish to. However, our travel advice clearly states that travellers to the Occupied Territories may face difficulties To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the on arrival. They were visited four times by consular Crown Prosecution Service will, under the Prevention staff, including a visit by our ambassador. of Corruption Act 1901, consider pursuing those journalists employed by News International Ltd Our ambassador was in regular contact with the who are alleged to have paid large sums of money Israeli Government at a senior level to facilitate the to police officers. [HL10893] quickest possible return of the detainees, and his team were in constant communication to raise and resolve issues at the working level. We will follow The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace up any allegations of mistreatment with the Israeli of Tankerness): The role of the Crown Prosecution authorities. Service (CPS) is to advise and decide upon the bringing of prosecutions following the completion of an investigation by the police. In the event of allegations of corruption being referred to the CPS following an investigation, any such case will be considered in London Thames Gateway Development accordance with the code for Crown prosecutors. Corporation Question National Commissioning Board Asked by Baroness King of Bow Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government for what reason Asked by Lord Bradley responsibility for planning functions in Fish Island and Bromley-by-Bow will be retained by the London To ask Her Majesty’s Government what regional Thames Gateway Development Corporation after and local commissioning structures will be established responsibility for other parts of Tower Hamlets is as part of the national commissioning board. transferred back to the local authority. [HL11046] [HL11009]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The National Department for Communities and Local Government Health Service commissioning board will be free to (Baroness Hanham): As part of the localisation of the take decisions about how best to discharge its London Thames Gateway Development Corporation, responsibilities. It is anticipated that the primary care all planning powers are being transferred to locally trust cluster arrangements will be reflected in the local accountable bodies on 1 October 2012. The Mayor of arrangements of the board. London has consulted on a proposed mayoral development corporation that would assume planning NHS: Food powers for part of the area currently covered by London Thames Gateway Development Corporation Question with a boundary including the following areas: Asked by Baroness Gibson of Market Rasen the core Olympic Park, comprising land owned by Olympic Park Legacy Company and the Lee Valley To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Regional Park Authority, including Eton Manor; they have to improve the quality of food for patients in NHS hospitals. [HL10899] the Olympic Village and associated development sites owned by the Olympic Delivery Authority and London and Continental Railways Ltd; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): Good hospital the Stratford City development site, including the food is an important part of care, both for clinical Westfield Shopping Centre and Chobham Farm; reasons and to ensure a good care experience. Hackney Wick and Fish Island; From 1 October 2010, every health and adult social Bromley-by-Bow North (with a southern boundary care service in England is legally responsible for making at the District line); sure it meets new essential standards of quality and Pudding Mill Lane and Sugarhouse Lane; safety, including a requirement to provide: Three Mills and Mill Meads; and a choice of suitable and nutritious food and hydration, Carpenters Estate. in sufficient quantities to meet service users’ needs; The mayor is due to announce the agreed boundary food and hydration that meet any reasonable in September 2011. All of the London Thames Gateway requirements arising from a service user’s religious Development Corporation’s planning powers outside or cultural background; and of the mayoral development corporation boundary support, where necessary, for the purposes of will be returned to the local boroughs of Hackney, enabling service users to eat and drink sufficient Newham and Tower Hamlets. amounts for their needs. WA 247 Written Answers[18 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 248

Registration and licensing are the responsibility of The initial allocation is made up of initial recurrent the Care Quality Commission, which has a wide range revenue allocations. The in-year allocations are made of actions it can take if it finds care services are not up of non-recurrent central budget allocations and meeting essential standards. inter authority transfers (movements between SHAs The operating framework for 2011-12 requires the and PCTs in year) which are also non-recurrent. National Health Service to consider the government buying standards for food (published June 2011), which encourage procurement that supports a healthy balanced NHS: Private Finance Initiative diet for those in the care of public services and for public sector workers, and that reduces the impact of Questions food and catering on the environment. Asked by Lord Mawhinney At the same time as Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs published the government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the buying standards, the Department of Health published percentage figure in the NHS Affordability Index a toolkit for public sector organisations serving food for the recently built Peterborough City Hospital to adults. This gives advice to caterers on improving when the private finance initiative was approved; healthy food provision. It replaces guidance previously and what is the equivalent figure today. [HL10880] published by the Food Standards Agency. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the private finance initiative was approved for the recently built Peterborough City Hospital; what were the projected incomes for 2010-11 and 2011-12; and NHS: Peterborough Primary Care Trust what was the actual income for 2010-11 and what is Questions the projected income for 2011-12. [HL10881] Asked by Lord Mawhinney To ask Her Majesty’s Government what additional expenditure, by item costing £500,000 or more, was To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much incurred in the building of the new Peterborough money the Peterborough Primary Care Trust has City Hospital over and above what was included in had to borrow in each of the last three years over the approved private finance initiative application. and above its annual allocation in order to ensure [HL10882] that the primary care trust meets its annual requirement not to exceed its statutory financial obligations; To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the and from which body or bodies. [HL11000] projected spends for the new Peterborough City Hospital for 2010-11 and 2011-12; what was the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much actual spend for 2010–11; and what is the projected money has had to be granted to the Peterborough spend for 2011-12. [HL10883] Primary Care Trust in each of the last three years, over and above its annual allocation, in order to ensure that the primary care trust meets its annual The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, requirements not to exceed its statutory financial Department of Health (Earl Howe): The information obligations; and from which body or bodies. requested is a matter for Peterborough and Stamford [HL11001] Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust. We have written to Nigel Hards, chairman of Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, informing him of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the noble Lord’s inquiry. Mr Hards will reply shortly Department of Health (Earl Howe): Peterborough Primary and a copy of the letter will be placed in the Library. Care Trust (PCT) has not borrowed any money from the department in the past three financial years. The East of England Strategic Health Authority (SHA) has further advised that the PCT has not borrowed Northern Ireland Office: Sick Leave from others. Question The following table consolidates all the revenue Asked by Lord Laird resource allocations, known collectively as the revenue resource limit, made to the PCT in the past three To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many financial years. These can be seen in the audited days of stress-related sick leave were taken over the accounts of the PCT. past five years by staff of the Northern Ireland Office; and how many staff are currently absent due 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 to stress. [HL11155] £000 £000 £000

Initial 238,393 244,676 257,356 Allocation Lord Shutt of Greetland: Comparable figures for In-year 3,754 27,275 32,747 the department as it is now configured are not available Allocations following the completion of devolution of policing Total 242,147 271,951 290,103 and justice functions on 12 April 2010. Source: Department of Health - Group Financial Reporting and Since 12 April 2010, no days of stress-related leave Cash Management were taken by staff of the Northern Ireland Office. WA 249 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 250

Northern Ireland: Economy Olympic Games 2012 Question Question Asked by Lord Kilclooney Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action closing date for the consultation on devolving they are taking to ensure people without tickets to corporation tax to Northern Ireland; how many the 2012 Olympics are not the victims of online responses were received; and how many of those fraud. [HL10671] responses were from individuals. [HL10777]

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Browning): Operation Podium is the Metropolitan Sassoon): The consultation on rebalancing the Northern Police Service (MPS) response to deal with criminal Ireland economy closed on 8 July 2011. Initial analysis networks targeting the economy of the 2012 Games. suggests that over 700 responses have been received. A Its remit is to investigate Games-related serious and summary of consultation responses will be published organised criminality, focusing on acquisitive crimes in due course. including money-laundering, organised ticket crime, corruption, bribery, fraud, counterfeiting and false identity abuse. Operation Podium has worked with the Nuclear Weapons MPS Directorate of Public Affairs to prepare key Question messages for the public on this issue. The intention is to raise awareness nationally and internationally on Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon where to safely purchase tickets, providing consumers with some top tips on how to protect themselves from To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to being a victim of a fraudulent ticket sale. Maximum the Written Statement by Lord Astor of Hever on media exposure will be sought while also utilising 29 June (WS 154) concerning nuclear weapons, internal law enforcement networks, community groups, whether the United Kingdom’s nuclear weapons stakeholders and international contacts to heighten are capable of being developed independently of impact. other states. [HL10847] Operation Podium is working closely with internet providers (ISPs) to ensure that fraudulent websites are taken down quickly and, where appropriate, will use The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry the range of existing fraud legislation to seek prosecutions of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Yes. The nuclear against offenders. Anybody applying for London 2012 physics package—the heart of the UK’s nuclear tickets can use LOCOG’s online website, http:// warhead—is entirely designed and manufactured in www.london2012.com/about-this-website/ticketing- the UK. website-checker.php, to ensure the site they are using While the UK may choose to purchase certain is an authorised ticket reseller. The Government are non-nuclear warhead components and share experimental also committed to tackling the illegal touting of Games facilities with its allies, this is only undertaken where it tickets. The London Olympic Games and Paralympic is considered more efficient and/or cost-effective to do Games (Amendment) Bill, currently before Parliament, so and where national sovereignty is not compromised. proposes increasing the maximum penalty for illegal In addition, such activities are undertaken in compliance reselling of Games tickets from £5,000 to £20,000. with our international obligations and do not affect the independence of the UK’s nuclear deterrent.

Planning Offenders: Unpaid Work Question Question Asked by Lord Greaves Asked by Lord Ramsbotham To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government to whom will local planning authorities in England have (a) a magistrates’ court make out a community supervision completed the preparation of their core strategies order with a condition of unpaid work following and submitted them for examination, and (b) completed the process of tendering for unpaid work. [HL10772] the examination process and adopted their core strategies. [HL10984]

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): All community orders are required by law The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, to specify the local justice area in which the offender Department for Communities and Local Government lives, or will be living. The order then becomes the (Baroness Hanham): As of July 2011, 149 local planning responsibility of the offender’s responsible officer, who authorities in England have submitted their core strategies is an officer of a provider of probation services acting for examination; 102 of these authorities have now in the specified local justice area. adopted their core strategy. WA 251 Written Answers[18 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 252

Prisoners: Pastoral Care incurred, in respect of (a) domestic passenger trains Question on HS1, (b) passenger trains through the Channel Tunnel, and (c) freight trains through the Channel Asked by Lord Hylton Tunnel. [HL9011] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for the National Offender Management Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport’s contingent Service to provide spiritual help and pastoral care liabilities in respect of the Channel Tunnel are published for all prisoners, following the recent abolition of in its resource accounts for 2009-10 at http://www. the post of principal Roman Catholic chaplain to dft.gov.uk/about/publications/apr/resourceaccounts prisons. [HL10830] 0910/pdf/resourceaccounts0910.pdf. The department classifies contingent liabilities in The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord accordance with accounting rules. There is an agreement McNally): The pastoral and spiritual needs of prisoners relating to the “underpinning” of access charges for are met through a multi-faith team of chaplains in domestic passenger services for HS1. This was entered each prison working inclusively, while respecting the into in July 2010. integrity of each tradition. Roman Catholic chaplains, The maximum amount which may be payable under of whom there are some 170 (full-time, part-time and this agreement is approximately £3.2 billion in 2009 sessional), are an integral part of this provision. The prices (for the period 2010 to 2040). former senior manager post of principal Roman Catholic chaplain in the National Offender Management Service Whether any moneys are actually paid depends on has been discontinued following lengthy discussions whether or not the Secretary of State chooses to with representatives of the Roman Catholic Church, specify the relevant services in future franchise agreements. which has created a new role of Catholic bishops’ It is his present intention to do so and the agreement is prisons adviser. This outcome will not negatively impact therefore unlikely to be of a nature that is accounted on the spiritual help and pastoral care available for all as a contingent liability in the 2010-11 resource accounts. prisoners. Asked by Lord Berkeley To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Questions for Written Answer the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 17 May Questions (WA 293), whether their payment of freight charges for 2010-11 were fixed charges or dependent on the Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill volumes of traffic using the Channel Tunnel; what To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they have payment they are required to make in respect of not yet answered HL 9473, tabled on 23 May, fixed or variable charges for passenger service Opex asking whether any proposals for changes to the for Eurostar and any other operator of such services; Equality Act 2010 would be subject to public and whether Eurostar, DB and any other passenger consultation before they were introduced. [HL9986] operator will pay the same charges for operating similar trains. [HL9631] Baroness Verma: I refer my noble friend to my answer of 11 July 2011 (Official Report, cols. WA125-26). Earl Attlee: The charge of £8,278,233 in respect of Infrastructure (Opex) charges for rail freight in 2010-11 Asked by Lord Berkeley was a fixed cost paid under the terms of the railways To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they usage contract (RUC) for the Channel Tunnel. will answer Question for Written Answer HL9011 Both Opex and variable charges in respect of passenger concerning the contingent liability on Government services running under the terms of the RUC are paid with regard to passenger trains, tabled on 9 May by the DfT on behalf of the British Railways Board, and due for answer on 23 May. [HL10927] which remains the formal signatory to the contract, To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they with a same-day refund from Eurostar to DfT under will answer Questions for Written Answer HL9631 the terms of the supplementary agreements that were concerning freight charges, and HL9633 concerning implemented to enable the privatisation of BRB’s charges in respect of Channel Tunnel passenger international business. trains, both tabled on 6 June and due for answer on Asked by Lord Berkeley 20 June. [HL10928] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Earl Attlee: I have answered these questions today. the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 17 May (WA 293), whether charges were paid by them in respect of passenger train services through the Railways: Channel Tunnel Channel Tunnel; and, if so, how much was paid in Questions 2010-11. [HL9633] Asked by Lord Berkeley Earl Attlee: Charges in respect of passenger train To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their services running under the terms of the railways usage estimate of the contingent liability on Government, contract (RUC) are paid by the DfT on behalf of the and the circumstances under which it might be British Railways Board, which remains the formal WA 253 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 254 signatory to the contract, with a same-day refund Taiwan from Eurostar to DfT under the terms of the Questions supplementary agreements that were implemented to enable the privatisation of BRB’s international business. Asked by Lord Northbrook To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Somalia: Piracy assessment of the proposal for Taiwan’s participation Question in the United Nations Framework Convention on Asked by Lord Tebbit Climate Change; and what facilitating measures could be adopted to make this feasible. [HL10837] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have monitored what has become of the alleged The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth pirates who have been handed over to other jurisdictions Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government since Royal Navy anti-piracy operations off Somalia support Taiwan’s practical participation in international began; and, if so, what has become of them. organisations where this does not require statehood. [HL10786] Taiwan is currently represented at the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change meetings The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry by a non-governmental organisation, the Industrial of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): I refer the noble Technology Research Institute. Lord to the answer I gave on 23 May 2011 (Official Report, col. WA391). Since then a further three suspected The Government attach importance to engagement pirates have been encountered by the Royal Navy with Taiwan on climate change issues and have regular during a boarding operation. Following detailed analysis exchanges with the Taiwanese authorities about low- of all physical evidence, witness statements, and options carbon development. for prosecution these individuals were released, as it Asked by Lord Northbrook was assessed that a successful prosecution was unlikely. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the referral by the World Health South Wales Police Organisation to Taiwan as a province of China in Question the World Health Organisation’s internal documents. Asked by Lord Laird [HL10838] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 13 May Lord Howell of Guildford: The Government do not (WA250), whether they will require the Chief Constable comment on leaked documents. The Government welcome of South Wales Police to apologise to, and to the fact that Taiwan now participates as an observer at compensate, those who were found to be guilty of the World Health Assembly. It is important to UK holding, but not using, mobile phones while interests that Taiwan is able to participate practically driving. [HL10949] in the global health safety net.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Browning): There is no offence of holding a mobile Taxation: VAT phone while driving although it could constitute an Questions offence of driving without due care and attention Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay depending on the circumstances of an individual case. Whether a person is guilty of using a mobile phone To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the while driving is a matter for the courts to decide on the estimated annual cost, in the absence of behaviour basis of the evidence put before them. Enforcement of change, of reducing VAT from 20 per cent to 5 per the legislation is an operational matter for the police. cent on the repair and reconstruction of residential property. [HL10797] Syria To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Question estimated annual revenue from VAT at 20 per cent Asked by Lord Hylton on the conversion of non-residential into residential property. [HL10798] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what information they have received on the burning of 10 square To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the kilometres of open space in the occupied Golan estimated annual revenue, in the absence of behaviour Heights, near the Syrian town of Qunaytra. change, from making purchases of new residential [HL10800] [HL11013] property liable to VAT at a 5 per cent rate.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are aware of Sassoon): The cost of reducing VAT from 20 per cent reports of a fire in the Golan Heights which has since to 5 per cent on repair, maintenance and improvement been brought under control. We are also aware of of residential property, in the absence of behavioural allegations that the fire was deliberately started but we change, is tentatively estimated to be in the region of have not seen evidence in support of this. £2.2 billion. WA 255 Written Answers[18 JULY 2011] Written Answers WA 256

The revenue from VAT at 20 per cent on the conversion evasion of (a) VAT, and (b) other taxes, on residential of non-residential into residential property, in the property repair and reconstruction work. [HL10799] absence of behavioural change, is estimated to be about £300 million, compared to an estimate of about Lord Sassoon: No such estimates have been made. £75 million at the current 5 per cent rate. HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) publishes The revenue from making the construction of new estimates of the total tax gap in Measuring Tax Gaps dwellings liable to VAT at 5 per cent rate, in the 2010, which is available in the House of Lords Library absence of behavioural change, is estimated to be and on the HMRC website at http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ about £1.5 billion. stats/measuring-tax-gaps-2010.htm.pdf. The latest estimates show evasion accounted for Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay 17.5 per cent of the total tax gap in 2007-08, approximately £7 billion. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Measuring Tax Gaps 2011 will be published on latest estimate of the loss to the Exchequer from the 21 September 2011.

Monday 18 July 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Animals: Scientific Procedures ...... 101 Local Government: Finance ...... 119

Arms Exports ...... 102 Machinery of Government ...... 122

Care Quality Commission: Registration...... 102 Marine Environment: Gibraltar...... 122

Care Services: Winterbourne View...... 103 Media: Local Television...... 123

Children: Early Intervention...... 105 Ministry of Defence: Annual Report and Accounts...... 124 Northern Ireland: Human Rights Commission...... 124 Children: Foundation Years...... 106 Pensions...... 125 Correction to Commons Written Answer ...... 109 Public Bodies: Resource Accounts ...... 125 Crime: Statistics...... 110 Royal Parks Agency...... 127 Defence: Rationalisation...... 110 Schools: Testing and Assessment ...... 128 Education: ESOL...... 115 Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill...... 129 Elections: Co-ordinated Online Record of Electors ...... 116 Taxation: Double Taxation ...... 129 Gambling: Remote Gambling...... 116 Taxation: Isle of Man ...... 130

Health: Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease and Terrorism Act 2000 and Part 1 of the Terrorism Act Asthma ...... 117 2006: Independent Review ...... 130

Health: Medicines...... 117 Terrorism Act 2000 (Remedial) Order 2011 ...... 130

Jobcentre Plus: Annual Report and Accounts...... 119 Terrorism: Finance...... 131

Monday 18 July 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Abortion...... 223 Diplomats: Cross-accreditation...... 229

Agriculture: Eggs...... 223 Economy: Balance of Payments...... 229

Animal By-products...... 224 Economy: Northern Ireland...... 230

Animals: Scientific Procedures...... 224 Embryology ...... 230

Armed Forces: Costs...... 226 EU: Bank Accounts...... 231

Armed Forces: Helicopters ...... 225 EU: Environment Council ...... 231

Bahrain...... 226 EU: Logo...... 231

Banks: Credit Cards...... 227 EU: Membership ...... 232

Belfast Agreement...... 227 Female Genital Mutilation ...... 233

Clostridium Sordellii...... 227 Finance: Foreign Exchange...... 233

Court of the Bank of England...... 228 Financial Services Bill...... 234

Detention: Pre-trial...... 229 Government Departments: Research and Data...... 234 Col. No. Col. No. Health: Contaminated Blood Products...... 236 National Commissioning Board ...... 246

Health: Down’s Syndrome...... 237 NHS: Food ...... 246

Health: Drug Tariff...... 237 NHS: Peterborough Primary Care Trust...... 247

Health: General Practitioners ...... 238 NHS: Private Finance Initiative ...... 248

Health: Orthopaedics...... 239 Northern Ireland: Economy...... 249

Health: Patient Safety ...... 240 Northern Ireland Office: Sick Leave ...... 248

Health: Pressure Sores ...... 240 Nuclear Weapons...... 249

Health: Rural Pharmacies...... 241 Offenders: Unpaid Work...... 249

Health: Stroke Care ...... 241 Olympic Games 2012 ...... 250

Health: Surgical Instruments ...... 242 Planning ...... 250

Hillsborough Castle ...... 242 Prisoners: Pastoral Care...... 251

House of Lords: Media Training ...... 243 Questions for Written Answer...... 251

Human Rights ...... 243 Railways: Channel Tunnel ...... 251

Iran...... 243 Somalia: Piracy...... 253

Iraq...... 244 South Wales Police...... 253

Israel and Palestine ...... 244 Syria ...... 253

London Thames Gateway Development Corporation ..... 245 Taiwan ...... 254

Media: News International Ltd...... 246 Taxation: VAT ...... 254 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL9011] ...... 252 [HL10793]...... 239

[HL9631] ...... 252 [HL10794]...... 239

[HL9633] ...... 252 [HL10795]...... 239

[HL9986] ...... 251 [HL10797]...... 254

[HL10299]...... 234 [HL10798]...... 254

[HL10671]...... 250 [HL10799]...... 256

[HL10732]...... 243 [HL10800]...... 254

[HL10765]...... 226 [HL10820]...... 224

[HL10769]...... 232 [HL10826]...... 227

[HL10772]...... 249 [HL10830]...... 251

[HL10777]...... 249 [HL10832]...... 244

[HL10779]...... 242 [HL10837]...... 254

[HL10781]...... 227 [HL10838]...... 254

[HL10786]...... 253 [HL10847]...... 249

[HL10787]...... 223 [HL10856]...... 229

[HL10788]...... 223 [HL10869]...... 243

[HL10791]...... 241 [HL10870]...... 225 Col. No. Col. No. [HL10871]...... 236 [HL10970]...... 234

[HL10874]...... 237 [HL10971]...... 234

[HL10876]...... 230 [HL10977]...... 236

[HL10877]...... 223 [HL10984]...... 250

[HL10879]...... 223 [HL11000]...... 247

[HL10880]...... 248 [HL11001]...... 247

[HL10881]...... 248 [HL11005]...... 233

[HL10882]...... 248 [HL11006]...... 233

[HL10883]...... 248 [HL11007]...... 233

[HL10893]...... 246 [HL11009]...... 246

[HL10894]...... 237 [HL11013]...... 253

[HL10895]...... 241 [HL11014]...... 243 [HL11016]...... 227 [HL10899]...... 246 [HL11017]...... 231 [HL10907]...... 238 [HL11019]...... 231 [HL10911]...... 231 [HL11020]...... 231 [HL10913]...... 228 [HL11030]...... 240 [HL10914]...... 229 [HL11039]...... 229 [HL10916]...... 234 [HL11046]...... 245 [HL10925]...... 242 [HL11047]...... 236 [HL10926]...... 242 [HL11056]...... 244 [HL10927]...... 251 [HL11057]...... 244

[HL10928]...... 251 [HL11061]...... 227

[HL10943]...... 226 [HL11095]...... 240

[HL10949]...... 253 [HL11143]...... 230

[HL10961]...... 224 [HL11155]...... 248

[HL10962]...... 225 [HL11163]...... 229 Volume 729 Monday No. 185 18 July 2011

CONTENTS

Monday 18 July 2011 Election of Lord Speaker...... 1063 Message from the Queen ...... 1063 Questions Thames Tunnel ...... 1064 Democratic Republic of Congo...... 1067 Finance: Off-exchange Trading Venues...... 1069 Dyslexia ...... 1071 Privacy and Injunctions Committee Membership Motion...... 1073 Five Statutory Instruments Motion to Refer to Grand Committee ...... 1074 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill Consideration of Commons Reason...... 1074 Metropolitan Police Service Statement ...... 1107 Defence Transformation Statement ...... 1117 Local Government Finance Statement ...... 1129 Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill Second Reading and Remaining Stages...... 1139 Finance (No. 3) Bill Second Reading and Remaining Stages...... 1139 Finance Bill 2011: EAC Report Motion to Take Note ...... 1190 Grand Committee Education Bill Committee (7th Day) ...... GC 365 Written Statements...... WS 101 Written Answers...... WA 223