,
I S'l'/DPIS'l'/DPI ORALORAL HISTORYHlS'l'ORY (02)(02) I D8B8D8B8 I I .. Yale-UNYale-UN OralOral HistoryHistory ProjectProject I BishopBishop KleopasKleopas DumeniDumeni .. JeanJean Krasno;Krasno; InterviewerInterviewer MarchMarch 17, 1999 I .. Oniipa, Namibia I I I I I I ~ I • 11 Yale-UN Oral History Project Bishop Kleopas OumeniDumeni Jean Krasno, InterviewerInterviewer March 17, 19991999 11 Oniipa, NamibiaNamibia
Index: Namibian Independence: Role of the ChurchChurch • Apartheid 4,7,8 April 1, 1989 Crisis 13, 15, 16, 17, 18 Bombing of the First National Bank 2/88 31 ChurchChurch,, Independence 6 OefenseDefense Forces, South African 9,10,14-17,19,28,30,32 Freedom fighters 9,14-16,18,19 Finnish Missionary Society 5,6,23 Government, South African 9-10, 14-17, 19,23,27-28,31 Independence, Angolan 7 Koevoet 9-10,16,20 Lutheran World Federation (LWF) 11 Missionaries 5 Namibia Colonization of 7 Democratic Turnhalle Alliance (OTA)(DTA) 25,28 Elections 12,13,24-26 • Evangelical Lutheran Church, Namibia 2,3 Independence, 3,24 National Church Council 3 • National Reconciliation 26-28, 32-33 Repatriation 12, 18-20,27 Resolution 435 10,14,16,18,23,26-28 • School boycott 1988 29-31 South West African People's Organization (SWAPO)(SWAPO) 10,12,14-19,23-27,30-31 South West African Police (SWAPOL) 30 • Truth Process 33 UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) 12 • UN Transition Assistance Group (UNTAG) 11-13,18-19,21-22,29 •If 11 ,• • III
III Yale-UN Oral History Bishop Kleopas DumenDumenii Jean Krasno, IntervieweInterviewerr March 17, 19919999 • Oniipa, NamibiNamibiaa • • Jean Krasno: To begin with, Bishop Dumeni, could you justjust saysay a littlelittle bitbit aboutabout 11 yourself, where you were born, where you were educated, and thethe work thatthat youyou areare doingdoing here at Oniipa?
Bishop Kleopas Dumeni: Thank you, Jean, and for thethe purpose behind thisthis projectproject
and the opportunity to share with you my experiences. My name isis Kleopas Dumeni.Dumeni. MyMy
father past away, but he was a teacher for many years. My mother isis stillstill alive atat thethe ageage
of 86. I got my education in primary schools in Ombalantu, inin Nakayale, growinggrowing upup
here. Then after primary school I went to secondary school inin thethe samesame area ofof
Ombalantu. Then I attended the teacher training school here inin Oniipa. II completed mymy
schooling as a teacher in 1953. Then after a few years, I went toto thethe theologicaltheological seminaryseminary
for 5 years. Then I was ordained as a pastor on 16 August 1959. From thatthat day,day, II waswas aa
pastor of the Lutheran religion in the Tshandi parish. At thatthat same time,time, II was alsoalso
elected as a youth pastor in 1960 - 61. For this reason, I went toto thethe United StatesStates forfor
youth camps and also to get some experience in youth leadership.leadership. Later, II servedserved asas aa
youth pastor for another 10 years. From the begilming of 1973, II was elected asas assistantassistant
to my Bishop, the late Leonard Auala, where I served for threethree years. Then II waswas rere-
elected again to the same post as a church leader until almost thethe end of 1978. ..J 11II Then in December 1978, I was elected bishop ofof thethe EvangelicalEvangelical LutheranLutheran ChurchChurch in Namibia to replace the late Bishop Leonard Auala. II waswas consecratedconsecrated asas aa bishopbishop thethe
1tilt h of June 1979. In that year, after thatthat consecration, II tooktook overover fromfrom thethe latelate BishopBishop
Auala who was the leader of the church up toto thisthis time.time. ThatThat meansmeans thatthat II waswas inin thethe
leadership of our church for 30 years and as a bishop closeclose toto 2020 years,years, fromfrom JuneJune ofof 19791979
to June of this year, 1999, as a bishop of thisthis church. OfOf course,course, inin thethe officeoffice ofofpastor,pastor, II
had completed my mandate as a pastor forfor thethe congregation andand alsoalso asas thethe youthyouth pastor,pastor,
taking care ofthe youth of the church at large.large. But whenwhen II becamebecame aa bishop,bishop, II hadhad thethe
task to follow up the moving away of thethe members ofof thisthis church.church.
According to the post official, thethe church has toto followfollow itsits membersmembers toto wherewhere theythey
are, no matter where they are, beyond across thethe border oror inin thethe hospitaJhospital oror inin somesome areasareas
where they have jobs, and so on. This isis thethe mandate, thethe responsibilityresponsibility ofof thethe churchchurch toto
take care of its members. That has been my tasktask and itit isis mymy tasktask untiluntil thisthis day.day. I'mI'm suresure
if you could implement the purpose of thisthis church, which isis toto preachpreach thethe goodgood newsnews toto
the person as a whole, the person inin his or her totality.totality. IfIf somebodysomebody isis cryingcrying toto getget anan
education, to give them an education; forfor health, toto provideprovide aa hospital;hospital; ifif theythey areare hungry,hungry,
provide food. This is a holistic approach.
JK: We are sitting in your office inin thethe parish. There isis thethe churchchurch andand thethe officesoffices nextnext
to the church.
KD: This is the national office. Which means thatthat thisthis church,church, thethe membershipmembership ofof thisthis
church, is more than halfthe Namibian population. TheThe membersmembers ofofthisthis churchchurch areare now,now,
2 I
I according to statistics taken in 1997, more than 500,000. Which means thatthat more thanthan
half the population belongs to this church. In this church we have two dioceses. We are • now sitting here in the Eastern Diocese. We have a second bishop who isis inin charge of thethe I Eastern Diocese and we also have the Western Diocese in my charge. The Western I Diocese in under my leadership. But at the same time, I am the presiding bishop of thisthis ,: church. Therefore, I have been the bishop before the church was divided inin twotwo diocese and now I have a diocese which is my church and at the same time, I have thethe
responsibility ofthe church at large countrywide. • This is the headquarters of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Namibia and thisthis • is the national office and we have offices in Windhoek. The members of our church are If all over the country. My main tasks are as the chairperson of our seminary and also thethe 11 chairperson of the National Church Council and I have the responsibility for thesethese parishes. And in my diocese, I have more than 60 parishes and more thanthan 280,000
11 members. But we have more than 100 parishes in this church and also smaller 11 congregations. I talked to you already about the purpose of this church, which isis thethe , holistic approach. Maybe I will digress just a little bit. Before independence, maybe before 1960, all 11 the educational matters and development activities were just in the hands of thethe churches. , The church has established many hospitals, clinics, schools. There was trainingtraining colleges here established by the govermnent before 1960s. The government schools came in.in.
, They came to take over just after the 1960s. The Anglicans had their private day schools They came to take over just after the 1960s. The Anglicans had their private day schools , or training college and also the church here in Oniipa where we are now. The trainingtraining , college used to be here, then we moved it to Ongwediva and by the 1960s, we handed itit 11 3 I
I over. We handed over more than 10 hospitals andand manymany clinics,clinics, aboutabout 3030 overover thethe area,area, I especially the northern area. Also the schools, eveneven thethe primaryprimary schools,schools, havehave beenbeen established by the church and where we have a parish,parish, wewe havehave alsoalso aa schoolschool andand aa clinic.clinic.
I This means that the Anglican and the Roman Catholic churchchurch diddid thethe same.same. I But the church that I represent came earlier aroundaround JulyJuly 1870,1870, asas youyou cancan see.see. [Points to pictures on the wall] It is a longlong timetime ago.ago. WeWe areare nownow celebratingcelebrating somethingsomething
I like the 129 years, at the end of this year, 130 years. TheThe wholewhole emphasis,emphasis, thethe wholewhole 1I program, has been in the hands of the church. ForFor thatthat reason,reason, toto implementimplement whatwhat II toldtold I, you that it is the purpose of the church toto carry outout thethe holisticholistic approach:approach: education,education, development, health, spiritual care, and also thethe povertypoverty programprogram forfor thosethose whowho suffersuffer
I from hunger or malnutrition. We must taketake care ofof thethe personperson inin hishis oror herher totality.totality. ButBut I given that, when the government in thethe 1960s came andand tooktook overover somesome ofof thethe hospitals,hospitals, schools, training colleges, we still have a private school.school. ForFor instance,instance, wewe havehave
I Oshigambo high school here which isis a private schoolschool forfor thisthis church.church. ItIt hashas beenbeen aa I diocese since the 1950s, since 1955. Now, we traintrain manymany Namibians.Namibians. YouYou see,see, inin thisthis I country, there was a policy of what theythey call separateseparate education,education, separatedseparated byby color.color. Therefore, the policy for non-whites was not a proper education,education, educationeducation inin thingsthings likelike
I physical science, math, biology, and so on. Therefore, inin aa privateprivate school,school, thesethese subjects,subjects, I and it was the same for the Roman Catholic and AnglicanAnglican churchchurch beforebefore independence,independence, could be taught. Therefore, many were trainedtrained here.here. AndAnd somesome ofofthemthem crossedcrossed thethe
I border because they could go to school inin thosethose countries.countries. TheyThey wentwent overseasoverseas andand alsoalso , to African countries. It was a good chance forfor themthem toto continuecontinue toto furtherfurther theirtheir studiesstudies r because they had a base education here. II see thethe ministersministers inin thethe NamibianNamibian government.government. , 4 I
I Many of the ministers in the government now were students in our private high school. I They are former students in our schools and also some former students in the Roman Catholic schools, private school, and also the Anglican schools. This means that the
I whole education from kindergarten has been in the hands of the church. The reason this I church is so large is because the other missionaries came fifty years later. They came fifty years later. I fifty years later. I JK: So, you were here much earlier. I KD: The missionaries from Germany and Finland were here earlier than others. Even
I when the government took over, we still have our private schools, as I was telling you. I We have the Oshigambo high school, a private school, and we do have one in the Kavango area in the east, which is known as Nkurenkuru high school. That is a private
I school. This is a part of our mandate, our holistic approach, to give our contribution to
,: education. That is our contribution. I JK: I noticed that the names are from Finland or Sweden [looks at pictures on the wall I of the former bishops], the early missionaries? r KD: The early missionaries here are from Finland, the Finnish Missionary Society that
J was established in 1849. The missionaries who came here first are missionaries from , Germany and they settled in the south. But they went back to Germany and informed the newly established Finnish Missionary Society that if you want to come to the field where
'".. ,) , 5 we are working in the south, ifyou are ready, then you can go to the north. Then they came and they arrived here the 9th of July, 1870. They sent here those who were field secretaries from Finland. You see, for instance, there [points to picture] Alho served 8 thnes as field secretary.
JK: Victor Alho.
KD: He was field secretary 1920-1922,1925-1935, and 1937-1952. In 1925 he was ordained. Then Berger Erkisson, he was a teacher in college here in Oniipa and then he was first a moderator of the church. He was elected. The independence of the church took place during this period, in 1954.
JK: In 1954, the church became independent.
KD: In 1956, it became independent ofthe government. We became an independent member of the church. Then Rev. Alpo Hukka was his successor. And the Alpo Hukka period led to the leadership of Leonard Auala. He was the first native to be elected moderator. But in 1963, he was elected as a bishop. Which means that in 1963, this church became an Episcopal church and the natives took over. Up to 1954 it was a congregation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Finland. Since 1954, the church took a decision for its independence, which has continued until now.
6 JK: That's wonderful. That is not welllmown outside ofNamibia that the Finnish had
such important mission here.
I KD: I will see if I can give you a pamphlet with some information. In the course of my I time, we have been in a colonial regime. First it was a German colony and then the League ofNations and then it was trusted to South Africa. At the beginning of the 1960s,
I the Namibian people tried to cry for freedom. Some of the Namibian people went to live I in the West and in other AU'icanAn'ican countries and especially in 1975; many went into exile I when Angola gained independence. Some of the Angolan people worked here in Namibia and there was a chance for some Namibian people to cross the border into
I Angola in large numbers to go to fight for the independence of their own country. From I 1975, many Namibians crossed the border and went worldwide, almost all over the world, in Europe, or Asia, or Africa and so on. It was a very hard time here. At first, the South
I African government was not willing to listen to the people. I JK: It is very well known around the world, the Apartheid system in South Africa, but
I many people don't know much about what was going on in Namibia. I wanted to ask you I what was the effect of Apartheid here in the north of Namibia. I KD: Like you said, Apartheid was in the north but also in the whole COW1try. The
I Apartheid regime, the system, was enforced in Namibia. As I was telling you about the I Bantu education, non-white people were not given a proper education. I made a reference to that here. There were schools for blacks and for whites, hospitals, blacks and whites I I 7 only, and hotels, just for whites only. All the facilities, even some shops, were not open
for blacks, just for whites only, toilets even in the filling station. You have toto be careful
to see whether it is for blacks or for whites only. Which means that thisthis has been a
province of South Africa. The whole Apartheid system was implemented inin thisthis country
the same way as in South Africa. And this has not been easy for this reason, we, thisthis
church, came up with a proposal to speak on behalf ofthe Namibians, ofthethe suffering
people. We had tried to have an audience with the South Africans and theythey refused.refused. We
tried to get an appointment to discuss this problem. They did not give us a chance.
Apparently, then the church decided to write what we called an "open letter"letter" which we
wrote to the government of South Africa. We asked the government toto listenlisten toto thethe
people, to listen to what people want. What do they want? That "open letter"letter" which was
written in the 1960s and then in the 1970s was the start of the struggle within thethe country.
And the churches stood along with its members to request that the government listen,listen, toto
I negotiate with the majority ofthe people and to listen to the wishes of many people inin thisthis I country. Folilmately, in this regard, in the struggle for freedom outside and also inin thethe I country, the churches, especially the united churches with the Lutheran churches and thethe Roman Catholic, stood together. I got to address the government, or issueissue thethe I government against the Apartheid system and also to follow up our various members and I where they were. Many of them were away in prison, in Robben Island for lifelife or forfor 9 toto 10 years imprisonment and also I wanted to see how we could help thosethose who were inin
I prison. I And then the freedom fighters were corningcoming across the border toto fight within thethe country. It was a diffIcult time. As you know, the South African government defense I country. was a diffIcult time. As you know, the South African government defense r 8 forces, police, and the Koevoet units triedtried all theythey couldcould toto killkill andand intimidateintimidate thethe people,people, especially this northern area. The area was not safesafe becausebecause bothboth sidessides werewere settingsetting landmines here. Many people were killed by landmines.landmines. TheThe SouthSouth AfricanAfrican defensedefense forces and the Koevoets killed many people becausebecause manymany peoplepeople werewere givinggiving foodfood toto thethe freedom fighters. Sometimes theythey would justjust receivereceive rumorsrumors andand theythey killedkilled themthem justjust because they were giving food toto freedomfreedom fighter.fighter. EitherEither theythey wouldwould bebe killedkilled oror theythey would be taken to prison. ItIt was a very hard time.time. YouYou see,see, thethe peoplepeople werewere killed.killed. AndAnd the freedom fighters which theythey called terrorists,terrorists, whenwhen theythey killedkilled them,them, theythey putput themthem onon their trucks or Univacs [a typetype of helicopter], andand thenthen theythey wouldwould comecome toto thethe communities to show them theirtheir bodies and toto showshow thatthat thethe SouthSouth AfricanAfrican governmentgovernment isis powerful. Now, you see, thisthis was stupid because thesethese peoplepeople werewere membersmembers ofof thesethese families. And now they were coming with thisthis bodybody toto showshow atat thethe endend ofof thethe dayday toto these people. They might hang thethe body or thethe head,head, hanginghanging overover thethe communitycommunity soso theythey can see that they are powerful and theythey can kill thethe people.people. YouYou werewere notnot free.free. TheThe people were not free. Even ifif you speak, you dodo notnot knowknow withwith whomwhom youyou areare speakingspeaking because there were informers all over toto listenlisten toto whatwhat peoplepeople areare saying.saying.
I remember even when we visited America. WeWe visitedvisited AmericaAmerica severalseveral timestimes toto discuss with the U.S.D.S. government foreignforeign affairs atat thethe AfricanAfrican desk,desk, ChesterChester Crocker,Cracker, and others. I went to America several timestimes and toto thethe UnitedUnited Nations.Nations. ThereThere II hadhad somesome conversations and then I would come back. They wouldwould ask,ask, "What"What havehave youyou beenbeen doing? What was the purpose of your visit toto them?them? WhatWhat kindkind ofof storiesstories diddid youyou givegive them? We know what was going on." Whatever youyou telltell themthem [the[the SouthSouth Africans],Africans], itit does not help because we can prove itit thatthat itit isis true.true. ThereThere areare recordsrecords eveneven thisthis storystory thatthat
99 I was talking about when they put the body on the Univac and drove toto towntown toto thethe shops
so the people see the body hanging to see that they are powerful. But itit doesn't help. We
continued just to ask the South African government and the international community. By
that time, it was the Western Five Powers, the Western countries, the British, thethe Soviet
Union to listen to the wishes of the people. The churches were united on behalf of thethe
majority. We were convinced that with silence there would not be freedom. The people
would just be killed.
JK: Yes, ifthey were silent.
KD: But through this long struggle, the suffering of the people, people killed and put inin
prison, persecuted, tortured, finally, resolution 435 which calls for thethe independenceindependence of
Namibia came out.
JK: Right, in 1978, the UN passed that resolution.
KD: Yes, but it still needed to be implemented. South African when theythey carnecame toto
implement 435, they said that they wouldn't do it. And then, finally, theythey decided toto signsign
a cease-fire with the SWAPO fighters and the South African government. This was done
and then the implementation of 435 was stmied when the United Nations persOlmel came
to town to help with the transition and organize the elections. When theythey came, thethe
involvement ofthe church was key. The churches played a pivotal role because those
returning, that is the Namibians who were in exile, were not willingly received by thethe r r 10 South African government. There was no trust.trust. So, thethe peoplepeople whowho werewere inin exileexile diddid notnot even trust UNTAG because theythey did not know what thisthis cooperationcooperation betweenbetween thethe SouthSouth
African goverrunent and the UN troopstroops might be. Therefore,Therefore, theythey decideddecided toto bebe receivedreceived by the churches. Therefore, all thethe churches under thethe umbrellaumbrella ofof thethe CouncilCouncil ofof
Churches in country regardless of what denomination tooktook thisthis responsibility.responsibility. OfOf course,course, we had complete cooperation with thethe United Nations andand LutheranLutheran WorldWorld FederationFederation
(LCLWF). They agreed to receive thesethese people inin thethe churchchurch centers.centers.
In Windhoek, in Grootfontein, thosethose who werewere comingcoming byby busbus oror byby airair andand alsoalso
Ondangwa, they are the centers, thethe big one here, andand EngelaEngela andand Ongwediva.Ongwediva. AndAnd thenthen from the centers it was not easy toto taketake themthem toto theirtheir homeshomes becausebecause theythey werewere afraidafraid thatthat some of their brothers or sisters were recruitedrecruited by thethe SouthSouth AfricanAfrican army.army. TheThe churchchurch trained the parishes to receive thesethese people. And wewe trained trained thethe familiesfamilies toto receivereceive them.them.
Because they were afraid because theythey didn't know ififtheythey werewere supportingsupporting thethe SouthSouth
African government or SWAPO. They needed toto receivereceive eacheach other.other. ItIt waswas difficult.difficult.
The people didn't want to go therethere because theythey werewere afraidafraid thatthat maybemaybe somethingsomething wouldwould happen. From our centers, we tooktook them toto smallsmall centers,centers, parishesparishes andand thenthen invitedinvited theirtheir relatives to come and collect them.them. We didn't know ifif wewe hadhad thethe namesnames ofof everyevery personperson and where he or she went. Some of themthem refusedrefused andand saidsaid theythey wouldwould notnot gogo there.there. "We"We shall not go to our families because itit was not safesafe toto gogo there."there."
This was done alloverall over inin thethe centers and especiallyespecially thethe centercenter ofof thisthis church,church, alsoalso at the Roman Catholic church. Some came by air herehere atat thethe OndangwaOndangwa airportairport andand thethe
Grootfontein airport and the Windhoek InternationalInternational AirportAirport andand somesome camecame byby bus.bus.
They brought them to our centers and itit was thethe churchchurch process,process, asas II waswas saying,saying, inin
11J 1 cooperation with UNTAG personnel and UNHCR. They helped a lot. We tried to
convince them to go to their families. But it was a hard and a long process. Some of
them refused. For instance, we were invited to go to Dobra in Windhoek or to
Grootfontein, as the church leaders, to convince them to please go to your families, "it is
safe." The repatriation process was taken over by the churches, by the Council of
Churches. They were not willing to see the South African representatives of the South
African government. But through the assistance ofthe church, it was possible.
JK: They trusted you.
r KD: Yes, they trusted the churches because we had been together. They knew the r policy, the stand, of the church. They knew the church was on their side. Also, the church, the pastors, and others, and we as the church leaders were put sometimes in r prison or arrested for long or short times because of our activities in this job. The r government was clear that they could not trust the chmch. They tried their best to see if they could do something to convince the chmch leaders and the pastors. Of comse, at r times they could get some people but the churches stood firm with the people and r independence. ( When the repatriation was over and the elections took place, they came and said that the process was colored,colered, the elections were corrupt. This is preposterous. The
( process took place at the centers. ( JK: The registration and the balloting places were at the centers? I I 12 KD: The elections were all over, and as you know, the UN monitors came here to
monitor with us to be sure that the elections would be free and fair. This was done at the
church parishes and church centers and also at the schools.
JK: So, in Oniipa was there a balloting place here?
KD: Yes, there were many places in this area. And some ofthe UN persOlmel were
accommodated by the church.
r JK: Oh really, they lived at the centers? r KD: Yes, they lived at the centers all over. r r JK: I wanted to ask you that right at the beginning ofUNTAG around April first of 1989, there was a huge crisis that occurred. And I have not been able to get a really r straight answer as to what happened. And part of what I wanted to do in coming up here r was to ask you because you and your people here were seeing what was happening. r When the Special Representative of the Secretary-General Martti Ahtisaari (you have a bishop named Martli)Martii) arrived.... r r r r 13 I
11 KD: Rev. Martti Rautanen (1885-1925) was one of the pioneers who led the church to , independence and then Martti Ahtisaari led this country to its independence. They are both from Finland. J J JK: I think that is remarkable. The day that he arrived, he came into the airport in Windhoek and there was a big ceremony. And later he was informed that SWAPO
J personnel had come across the border from Angola and that there was fighting. I don't , know if he was getting all the correct information at that time. But he felt that it was important and he was under certain pressure from the South African government and the
J Administrator General in Windhoek, Louis Pienaar, to release the South African army J from their bases. I wanted to know from you what happened.
J KD: You see, from the begilming of the implementation of435, there was an J agreement that the South African soldiers or defense forces should be restricted to their , camps, at Grootfontein and Oshivelo. , , JK: So, here there were in Grootfontein and Oshivelo, those two. KD: Those two. And then SWAPO was restricted to their camps in Angola. But there ,\j;If.... }~ was a disagreement. SWAPO was saying, "Our soldiers who are freedom fighters are
1IrIr.. nl within Namibia." And South Africa said, "No, there are no SWAPO soldiers in the , country." There was this agreement that all these forces would be restricted to their , 11 1414 11
respective camps. But apparently, politically wise, the SWSWAPOAPO decided toto standstand firmfirm •J that "We cannot be restricted in camps when our people are here."
, JK: So, they were saying that SWSWAPOAPO people were here inin Namibia? , KD: I am speaking under the impression, but to me, some crossed thethe border, butbut thatthat
, was around the first ofApril. Some were here. , was around the first of April. Some were here. , JK: Some were here? J KD: Yes, they were here. You cannot see them because theythey were civilians. But theirtheir , weapons were here. Maybe some crossed the border. But therethere isis also a matter offactoffact that some were already here. Because it was not possible for thethe South Africans toto taketake J them all beyond the border of this country. It was not possible. How can you know that?that? They looked just like others. Some were here and maybe some crossed thethe border. TheThe , satellites saw this movement and they maybe advised South Africa. Therefore, thethe fighting troops hear on the first of April that the South Africans shot thesethese freedomfreedom , fighters and killed some of them. This was a really very difficult time.time. , JK: Where did this take place? f KD: This Oukwanyama area. The graves are still there.there. .Ifi'~
15 •f%f!'.'.'!.
•"JI:f , JK: Where was that again? ,1 KD: It was a little bit south of the place we call Ondeihaluka near the Angolan border
where the fighting took place. And many people were killed. •ill JK: Some people came there and some came across the border, but the South African IiI army was farther away from the border and it would take time for them to get up there. ill KD: But I think that they got information that there was some movement of SWAPO . freedom fighters. Therefore, they went and killed some people and this caused a lot of 11 problems.
III JK: Were the Koevoet involved also? III KD: Yes, because some people were thinking about this. It was Ahtisaari who gave • the order to the South African government to kill these people. Then the people were confused. Again, I remember myself, I went to Zimbabwe; there was another meeting. It
was not easy to convince the SWAPO leaders to continue with the implementation of
435. Even the Refugees, the Namibians, who were ready to return to Namibia, when the
first of April event took place, said, "No, they are going to kill us; we shall not go." We,
the church leaders, tried to convince the SWAPO leaders, "Ifyou lose this chance ofthe
implementation of 435 to return to Namibia, then forget freedom at this time." It was
very hard for us first to convince them to come. When we had convinced the SWAPO
16l6 leaders to come, it was very hard for the SWAPO leaders to convince the Namibians
under their leaders to come back to Nami bia. This was because of the events ofthe first
of April. Then a compromise was worked out. SWSWAPOAPO would send a delegation to
come to Namibia to visit all the places, the church centers, and discuss things with
Ahtisaari. They did not want to meet with the government because they felt that South • Africa was here illegally.
JK: So, they didn't want to talk to the government.
KD: No, they refused. They wanted to talk to Ahtisaari and then a small delegation
was sent and they even stayed here in Oniipa.
JK: In Oniipa?
KD: Yes, they were with us here and they went out to the center in Engela, Ongwediva,
and the other centers and they could see the fences. The people were worried that the
fence was too high and they could not jump out. They went to discuss with the people
and went to the south and did the same. They met with Ahtisaari, and I personally
attended with him at the resort. Then we tried to convince them, the fellow Namibians,
to come. They would be lmder protection. Because ofthe report of the small group that
was sent here, they had to convince the other Namibians, about 50,000 Namibians, to
come. Then came the trust. They said that they were not being difficult but that it was a
17 very difficult situation. They did convince them and we began thethe implementationimplementation ofof
UNTAG and repatriation.
JK: What were the SWAPO fighters doing on April? I know when theythey firstfirst carnecame
over and there were some here, I had heard that they gathered under somesome trees?trees? WhatWhat
were they doing?
KD: You see, the whole process was to convince thethe internationalinternational community thatthat thethe
freedom fighters were in Namibia.
JK: Did they intend to fight?
KD: I don't think so. They just wanted to show to thethe world thatthat theythey were here.here. WhatWhat
the leadership was saying was that, "It is true; they are within thethe country." ThoseThose whowho
are within the country don't want to be restricted into camps. Even after thisthis event,event, itit waswas
very difficult to take them to the UN because that was a part of thethe agreement. ThenThen
again, the church tried to help--they were all over the place--and trytry toto collect themthem inin
several places and provide them with health care. We triedtried toto taketake themthem toto thethe hospitals,hospitals,
secretly, not publicly. Then we took them to the border toto go back.
JK: OK, now if the UN troops had been here-they were supposed toto be here,here, butbut
because of budgetary problems in New York, they were not sent on time-so,time-so, ifif thethe
troops had been here on April first, would it have made a difference?
~i 18 ,r!IC."""'" ," ii,r •,
• KD: Yes, just to avoid thethe fighting and killing, butbut notnot maybemaybe toto preventprevent themthem fromfrom
coming. But if is also a matter of factfact thatthat somesome ofof thethe fightersfighters werewere here.here. TheyThey werewere notnot
at one place. They were inin various places and theythey hadhad communicationcommunication withwith eacheach other,other,
but not officially. Officially, SWSWAPOAPO fightersfighters were restrictedrestricted toto theirtheir campscamps inin Angola.Angola.
Officially, the South African Defense Forces were restrictedrestricted inin campscamps inin GrootfonteinGrootfontein andand
I Walvis Bay, but the movement was there.there.
• JK: You were talking about getting themthem toto gogo backback toto Angola.Angola. ThereThere waswas aa meetingmeeting that took place at Mount Etjo about a week later,later, afterafter thethe crisis.crisis. ThenThen itit waswas agreedagreed thatthat
the SWSWAPOAPO fighters should turnturn inin theirtheir weapons toto whateverwhatever UNUN couldcould getget upup herehere toto
collect them or they would be safely escorted back toto Angola.Angola. TheThe churchchurch waswas thenthen veryvery
important in terms of getting themthem back.
• KD: Yes, some were under UNTAG, some of them came to the church. I remember KD: Yes, some were under UNTAG, some ofthem came to the church. I remember • when they came to Ongwediva. Then we went toto seesee themthem andand discusseddiscussed withwith themthem andand tried to convince them toto go back toto Angola. Then UNTAGUNTAG waswas readyready toto repatriaterepatriate themthem '" and take them back to Angola. Some were unwilling toto dodo so.so. ,• , JK: They didn't trust thethe UN. KD: Yes, "We want toto go back ourselves." BecauseBecause notnot allall ofof themthem werewere inin thethe group.group.
We had some in the hospitals here. And we tooktook themthem toto thethe borderborder toto handhand themthem over.over.
1919 ,
And then,then, therethere was repatriationrepatriation fromfrom Namibia toto Angola. Then we went toto Kaokoland •11 inin thethe mOlmtains toto seesee thosethose who were there,there, toto collect them,them, and toto taketake themthem back. That was thethe churches and thethe nationals, thethe people themselvesthemselves who tooktook thethe libertyliberty toto
11 taketake themthem back inin thethe villages, because you didn't know. The people are alike. You 11 don't know who isis a traitor.traitor. We justjust triedtried toto buy forfor themthem civilian clothes, dress themthem inin civilian clothes likelike thethe others. The people did thisthis and tooktook themthem across thethe border.
11I
JK:JK: ItIt tooktook a lotlot of courage.
KD: Yes, because you could be arrested with thesethese people. Some of themthem stillstill had
theirtheir weapons. This was a danger, but we did it.it. Many people did it,it, pastors and other • civilians, justjust toto taketake themthem back. JK:JK: Now, thethe Koevoet were supposedsupposed toto be restrictedrestricted toto thethe bases and demobilized.
• They were supposed to be finished. Did they do that or were they still out and around? • They were supposed to be finished. Did they do that or were they still out and around? f KD: You never would know. The police were sayingsaying thatthat theythey were restrictedrestricted toto camp, J but thisthis isis my personal understanding of thethe deal. II thinkthink therethere were thosethose who were readyready toto act ifif itit were necessary. Not all of them,them, somesome of them,them, II think,think, went over toto thethe
, SWAPO fighters to see what was going on. Officially, publicly, it was announced they SWAPO fighters to see what was going on. Officially, publicly, it was announced they
were restrictedrestricted toto thethe camp, but II don't thinkthink thatthat all of themthem were there.there.
JK:JK: There have been other reportsreports thatthat theythey were not restricted.restricted.
20 - •
, • KD: No, no, their movement was clear. And there is not a great difference between • them. You see, the South African soldiers were also there.
i
• UN JK: Once the UN persoill1el started to arrive in the UN vehicles and the blue helmets • and the blue berets, did people eventually begin to trust them? • KD: Yes, because it was clear that the UN would be the body that would help us to get • our independence. I think they trusted them. But except that UNTAG caved in when the • event on the first of April took place. Some tried to put pressure for Ahtisaari to do something, to kill the people. It was fortunate that Ahtisaari was also working closely
• with the churches seeking advice. It is important to the whole program today that the • personality of Ahtisaari and the UN and the churches worked together. He was here • [points to his office]. When he came, we were together. • JK: Ahtisaari came to Oniipa? I I KD: Ahtisaari came to Oniipa. We were working here. He came two times to visit. III He also came to the Oniipa Mission Center there. He overnighted there and discussed with the people. And it was very good to discuss these things with him because the
, representative ofthe South African government was there. And I will tell you something , that is not known. In order to discuss things with Ahtisaari myself and with my
,' ,f" , 2211 '1:; • colleagues,colleagues, therethere waswas nono chancechance becausebecause thethe representativesrepresentatives ofof SouthSouth AfricanAfrican stayed.stayed. So,So, • we went in the sauna. • we went in the sauna. • JK:JK: YouYou wentwent inin thethe sauna?sauna? • KD:KD: Yes,Yes, wewe saidsaid toto thethe bodyguardbodyguard ofofAhtisaari,Ahtisaari, "We"We areare justjust goinggoing inin thethe salma.salilla. • ThereThere isis nono need,need, youyou cancan justjust standstand outside."outside." HeHe waswas outside.outside. ThenThen wewe wentwent intointo thethe saunasauna andand manymany decisionsdecisions werewere made.made. ThereThere waswas aa lotlot ofoftalktalk betweenbetween thethe churchchurch andand •II1II Ahtisaari.Ahtisaari. ThereThere werewere decisionsdecisions aboutabout thisthis placeplace andand thethe centers,centers, etc.etc. TheseThese discussionsdiscussions tooktook place inin thethe sauna.sauna.
• JK: Because it was the only way that you could talk. • JK: Because it was the only way that you could talk. • KD: We went to the pool and in the sauna. We went there and we came out and we wentwent inin thethe swimmingswimming pool and thethe sauna. We wanted him to discuss these things with • thethe peoplepeople concerned.concerned. ThatThat waswas aa good chance. We tooktook our decisions, agreements, and • recommendations.recommendations. So,So, whenwhen hehe wentwent backback toto UNTAGUNTAG toto taketake somesome of thesethese decisions, • theythey hadhad beenbeen takentaken herehere inin thethe sauna.sauna. • JK:JK: That'sThat'sfantastic. fantastic.
• KD: I was in Finland in January [1999J and when Ahtisaari was addressing the KD: I was in Finland in January [1999J and when Ahtisaari was addressing the • committeecommittee, ,he herevealed revealedfor forthe thefirst firsttime timethis thistalk talkin inthe the sauna.sauna. HeHe waswas addressaddress thethe •"',?',,'" , 2222 • anniversaryanniversary ofof 130130 yearsyears ofof thethe FimlishFinnish MissionaryMissionary Society.Society. AtAt thatthat pointpoint hehe waswas
• emphasizingemphasizing thethe vitalvital rolerole playedplayed byby thethe churches.churches. I Irepresentedrepresented allall thethe LutheranLutheran churcheschurches •- inin Namibia.Namibia. HeHe mademade referencereference toto thisthis meetingmeeting inin thethe sauna.sauna. JK:JK: That'sThat's fantastic.fantastic. YouYou know,know, II thinkthink thatthat whenwhen AhtisaariAhtisaari arrivedarrived inin Windhoek,Windhoek, hehe • waswas givengiven aa lotlot ofof wrongwrong information.information. • KD:KD: HeHe was.was. •I JK: And they were continuing toto get wrongwrong informationinformation becausebecause therethere waswas newsnews
I coming in that there were 8,000 or 10,000 SWAPO troopstroops massingmassing alongalong thethe border.border. I Later, it was found out that that wasn't true at all. Does anyone know where thatthat information was coming from? I I KD:KD: We don't know, butbut there were those who were trying to give the wrong 11 informationinformation withwith thethe purposepurpose soso thatthat 435435 couldcould not be implemented.implemented. 11 JK:JK: So,So, theythey werewere stillstill trying.trying.
KD:KD: TheyThey triedtried toto givegive otherother informationinformation toto thethe SouthSouth AfricanAfrican governmentgovernment oror toto thethe ~ internationalinternational governmentsgovernments sosothat that theythey couldcould blameblame SWAPOSWAPO andand rejectreject thethe wholewhole plan.plan. 11 ButButto to usus ininthe the churches,churches, IIam am convinced,convinced, thisthis isis oneone ofofthe the wonderfulwonderful thingsthings thatthat wewe havehave donedonefor forthis this country.country. AndAndalso, also, IIam am convinced,convinced, thatthat wewe camecame throughthrough thisthis strugglestruggle notnot
,"' ,/f~ I 2323 wh I I only because of thethe international community who suppOlied us, the SWAPO freedom fighters who fought for us from within or outside, but also through thethe Christian prayers.
I I remember we had back then a special prayer for this time where we prayed for the I wisdom of God toto give us thethe wisdom of guidance so thatthat thethe Namibian people can come I back inin peace toto theirtheir homeland. This started inin 1975 and every Sunday to God to send upon us thisthis special prayer for thatthat time.time. We gave itit toto thethe internationalinternational community for
I fifteenfifteen years, every Sunday. We gave thisthis prayer and finally, thethe Namibian people were I returningreturning toto Namibia peacefully. The elections were declared "free and fair." Through all thisthis thousandsthousands of liveslives were lostlost but inin thethe end independenceindependence came peacefully. Of
I course, we paid a lotlot because between 4 and 11 thousandthousand Namibian here and inin exile lostlost I theirtheir liveslives throughthrough bloodshed. But finally,finally, even thoughthough we paid a high cost, we got our I independenceindependence peacefully. That isis very important.important.
I JK: And toto end thethe horrible treatmenttreatment thatthat thethe people had been receiving. I KD: The people inin exile made itit clear thatthat theythey did notnot want toto be receivedreceived by thethe UN
I or by thethe South African forces,forces, but by thethe churches. This was a clear indicationindication thatthat theythey ,I trustedtrusted thethe churches. JK:JK: VeryVery important.important. During thethe registrationregistration of voters and laterlater thethe finalfinal days of ,• voting,voting, waswas therethere anyany evidenceevidence of intimidation?intimidation? , :1';: 2424
,;r{J: cilf
' KD: Yes and no. Because there were many observers from all over the world who
were in the country, watching what was going on. They knew where the polling stations
were and so on. They were all over. Of course, there was intimidation. There were
problems, yes. When the election was over and the people were waiting for the outcome,
they started from the south. From the beginning in announcing the outcome, the DTA, • that is the South Africans, got more votes. • JK: In the very south ofNamibia, because they had more DTA people there. • KD: Then the people here were prepared to take their bags to the border. If the DTA were in the position to win the elections, many of the people were ready to leave before
• they would be restricted to their villages. I confess that I was ready just to hear who had • won the election. If DTA had won the election, many people would have left,left. There was nobody who would restrict them or tell them not to go. But they were ready.
JK: The first votes thatthat came in were OTA.
KD: They startedstaIted toto have thesethese fears, but then they started to count the votes from
Windhoek. When theythey came toto count thethe votes from Grootfontein and Oshivelo, then
theythey came toto Kavango, thenthen SWAPOSWAPO got more votes. I think when they came to this
area, thethe voters from thisthis area gave SWAPO a clear majority. Then to all the voters of
SWAPO, it was clear thatthat theythey had won thethe election. Just thenthen thethe people believed it.
But from thethe beginning, therethere was intimidationintimidation and DTA would say, "OK, you will see."
2525 I And in the beginning of the returns, they said, "You see!" But later with Kavango and this part of the country and with the rest ofthe people, it was clear thatthat thethe DTA numbers ,-" .. i.·.• were smaller than it seemed in the beginning. I I JK: So, when the final count came in and the different parties knew exactly how many I votes they had gotten.
KD: You see, the people had been waiting the whole morning; we were listeninglistening toto thethe • radio to hear how many votes had come in from Windhoek, from Otjiwarongo, and soso on.on. • The people were just waiting to see whether DTA would win. But ultimately, thatthat was • not the case. The majority came to SWAPO. It was declared "free and fair." • JK: When all the information and the count was in, the final vote, people accepted it.it.
KD: Accepted it but still they wondered where they would go because maybe SWAPO
would do something against them. But it was "free and fair" and things moved ahead
according to the 435 plan.
JK: It seemed as though the SWAPO leaders, Sam Nujoma and Hage Geingob and
Mose Tjitendero, were very clear that they wanted national reconciliation.
KD: Yes.
26 1
JI JK: Was that something that the church had been involved in?
J KD: Yes, the center of reconciliation is the church. I told you that when the people
J came here to Oniipa, before they came to this country, we started a program of
reconciliation in the parishes to train the families to prepare themselves to receive them, J regardless of political affiliation. I I JK: Did you have many political affiliations within the parishes themselves? I KD: Yes, especially those of South Africa, DTA, and SWAPO, and other small groups. I There a deal was struck. Then it was agreed that the SWAPO leaders would also I alillOUnCe this policy of reconciliation. The churches started it to insure repatriation, to prepare the people to receive each other, the families. Even before that, it was only the
I church where the people could come 011on Sunday or with the church service, regardless of I their political affiliation. When they came to the church, they came to the church regardless of which political party they belonged. This includes the functions of the
I services and the whole community. We not saying that if you are not SWAPO, you are
not in the church. Because we are convinced that the church must have a service for all ,• the members of our church, regardless of the political reasons. Unless, they have something against the church constitution and regulations. Then this might apply, not
because he or she belongs to anyone of the groups. Therefore, the church is the place
where the people Call come together. Therefore, reconciliation started long, long ago...... •. ",c,,1;-'/' With the implementation of 435, we were ready to prepare a program for how to receive
2277 J
I them. When the people came, theythey were invitedinvited toto thethe churchchurch serviceservice andand wewe askedasked thethe I parishes to receive them, regardless of theirtheir political membership,membership, toto disregarddisregard that,that, butbut just as a member of the parish, members of thethe community,community, andand membersmembers ofof thethe families.families.
I Some are one group, some are SWAPO, and somesome areare DTA,DTA, SouthSouth AfricanAfrican militarymilitary I forces; that doesn't matter. That does not hinder youyou toto comecome togethertogether asas aa family.family. ItIt waswas the Episcopal church thatthat introducedintroduced thesethese people underunder 435.435. ThenThen itit continuedcontinued andand thethe j path of reconciliation, as far as II can see, isis not aa mattermatter ofof oneone day.day. WhenWhen II saysay thethe word,word, I it is for a world program. We were rejoicingrejoicing forfor thosethose whowho werewere hatinghating eacheach other,other, shaking hands, standing, surrounding each other withwith DTDTAA andand SWSWAPOAPO andand othersothers
I together rejoicing. But thatthat isis not thethe end of thethe story.story. WeWe areare stillstill continuing.continuing. WeWe stillstill I have a lot to do, as far as reconciliation isis concerned. ReconciliationReconciliation isis forfor thethe shortshort term,term, I for rejoicing about what happened so far,far, but itit isis clearclear thatthat wewe stillstill havehave aa lotlot toto do,do, asas farfar as reconciliation is concerned inin thisthis country. ToTo me,me, atat leastleast forfor thethe church,church, wewe havehave toto
I take the lead to see that reconciliation can continue toto taketake place.place. TheThe conflictconflict nownow isis thethe I rift between the rich people and thethe poor people asas itit grows.grows. TheThe gapgap betweenbetween AfricaAfrica andand Europe, in the international community between thethe richrich andand thethe poorpoor isis growing.growing. ItIt isis thethe
I mandate of the church toto see toto itit thatthat thisthis gap isis narrowednarrowed betweenbetween AfricaAfrica andand Europe,Europe,
between the third world and the industrializedindustrialized powers.powers. TheThe churchchurch hashas aa humanhuman rightsrights • mandate to address this social issue,issue, toto narrow thisthis gap,gap, bothboth internationallyinternationally andand locally.locally.
JK: In 1989, in July, approximately, thethe Secretary-General JavierJavier PerezPerez dede CuellarCuellar
came to Windhoek and he had a meeting with a numbernumber ofof differentdifferent people.people. TheyThey
developed after that meeting what theythey called aa "code"code ofof conduct"conduct" whichwhich waswas toto applyapply toto
2288 all thethe parties, that they would agree not to intimidate the other parties. Did that make a
difference toto you here that he had come?
KD: Yes, but, I may say, publicly, yes, but it is hard to know what is going on in
another comer.corner. UNTUNTAGAG tried to implement the Charter, but because of that agreement,
nobody can do it [intimidation] publicly, but everyone tried their best to influence the
others on the welfare of their party, and so on. Yes, because it was known that it put
pressure on people not to do it publicly.
JK: There is one other thing I wanted to ask you because it happened up here and I I don't understand too much about it. I understand that in 1988, the year before, that there was an incident in one of the schools nearby. Apparently, the South African military
would often have their post near a school or hospital and in this case there was an
incident involving the children at the school. The students began to boycott the school.
Then that boycott apparently spread. Do you know anything about what was going on
with that?
KD: There are a lot of things. Among the hospitals or the boarding schools or parishes
there were military camps because the South Africans were aware that the guerrillas
would come to get food and health essentials from the hospitals. They had camps near
each hospital or school; therefore, this is not the only school to have this. There were a lot
of these events. Some of them took place at Oshakati. I can give you examples that
happened near our parishes. We pleaded to please leave this church as it isis without
2929 changing it, so that the coming generations will see what the South African troops had
done. There are bullet holes in the church itself and in the windows and in the walls. The
shooting took place by the South African troops close to the church and the hospitals. In
this instance, the students said, "No, we will not go to school while they are here."
Because one of the reasons was that when shooting would take place between the
guerrillas and SWAPOL, who is going to suffer? There is an African saying that if
elephants are fighting each other, who is going to suffer? The grass is going to suffer
because these are big elephants. They were saying that ifthe SWAPO and South African
forces were fighting each other alongside one of the schools, who is going to suffer? It is
the people in that village, the people in that school. They were boycotting because they
knew they were going to be killed. They knew that as long as the military were posted
next to the hospitals and the schools, there would be fighting one day. They will attack
each other and then who is going to suffer? The people close to the fighting.
Also, because of theirtheIr own safety the South Africans wanted to have their camps
near a school or a hospital so that the freedom fighters might not attack them because they
I, would be afraid to kill other people. It
J{.'•....." JK: To kill innocent people. I KD: Illliocent people. The reason why they were always alongside the schools or the
I hospitals was because of their own safety. This had been the case. That is the reason
why the schools boycotted. The hospitals could not boycott, but the schools said, "No, if .-•••• you are here, we are not going to continue with our school anymore." ~ 'l~ P 30 JK: That is a very good explanation. That makes it much clearer.
KD: And I remember when many people were working when thethe bombbomb blastedblasted inin thethe CI: JJ' First National Bank in Oshakati.
11:1 JK: Why was there a bombing at the bank inin Oshakati? If I KD: You never know, this is a political matter. Somebody may thinkthink thatthat itit waswas SouthSouth Africa that planted the bomb so that they can say thatthat SWSWAPOAPO did it.it. SoSo theythey cancan saysay
I; that SWAPOSWAPO is killing its own people. We, the people, are not convinced thatthat thisthis mightmight I be a trick by the South African government. My youngest daughter waswas killedkilled inin thatthat First National Bank bomb blast. I First National Bank bomb blast. I JK: Oh, I'm sorry. When did that take place? I, , KD: February 1988. I JK: February 1988.
I KD: Yes, OK. My brother was killed by South African soldiers. People came and , took his cattle from his place and crossed the border with them. When he went therethere toto see ifhe could get his cattle back, the South Africans killed him on thethe border. We areare r~lli , 3311 Iq;.'.·.··:· not talking about matters far from us. We do not have enough time so that I can inforinformm
1 you about what has happened to myself, in this intimidation or being arrested. It is cleaclearr fr.•...• 1( that my daughter was killed. I lost my daughter in this war. I lost my brother in this warwar.. . it~.' ~,,' ..* And many others had the same. When I am saying that we suffered because of the war, I
'.!'.';; am not speaking in general terms. I am speaking of matters related to me, myself. I jusjustt Ji' give you two examples related to me when I referred to my brother and my youngesyoungestt .,~ I daughter. She had completed her studies in Oshigambo High School and was ready ttoo
!.,.' 1 continue with her studies as a dentist. She had a scholarship to the Gettysburg SeminarSeminaryy J!! r (USA) to study as a dentist. She went there just at the time with the others that day anandd about 30 people were killed. Some were killed on the spot; some died a few days laterlater..
, ;,l.\ J And I had to go to the airport to see that these people could go to Windhoek, and yoyouu I know the harassment. And yet you see that really reconciliation does workwork..
I JK: I was going to say that it must take tremendous couragecourage.. I· KD: Otherwise, it would take the form of revenge because now I am saying that aass
I N amibians we could do whatever we want to do and to treat them as traitors the way thetheyy I treated us. But because of reconciliation, we were willing because of peace and freedomfreedom.. I We got themthem.. :1 •I 1}l~~; ~ JK: I wanted to ask you, South African has now gone through a truth process, whicwhichh
,l has been very painful, but a lot of information has come out. In some cases, I think, it hahass n. 'iii been healing. Why didn't Namibia ever decide to have a truth commissioncommission?? 1,~Jf~
· 32 Oi,. KD: It is because the people of Namibia meme differentdifferent fromfrom thethe peoplepeople ofof SouthSouth Africa.Africa.
The decision in South Africa was a decision ofof thethe SouthSouth AfricanAfrican governmentgovernment toto dodo so.so.
We are not just doing what others do. We willwill havehave toto taketake ourour decisiondecision byby ourselves.ourselves.
So, we see this is what we want or what we needneed andand wewe knowknow becausebecause thisthis isis hardhard forfor our community and for our country. And II thinkthink asas farfar asas NamibiaNamibia isis concerned,concerned, andand II amam speaking in terms of the majority, therethere are thosethose whowho speakspeak outout thatthat thisthis shouldshould taketake place in Namibia. But I think if you ask thethe majoritymajority ofof Namibians,Namibians, theythey meme notnot goinggoing toto support this. For instance, if you telltell me thatthat youyou alreadyalready knowknow whowho itit isis whowho bombedbombed this kid, my daughter; it is this guy. Or theythey maymay saysay thatthat thisthis guyguy isis youryour brother;brother; II useuse this just as an example. For all of US, itit could bebe somebodysomebody closeclose toto you,you, saysay youryour father,father, or your mother, or your brother, or a son. WeWe don'tdon't thinkthink itit wouldwould bebe aa goodgood processprocess forfor reconciliation. To forgive and forget, II think,think, isis thethe idealideal ofof thethe majoritymajority ofof thethe people.people.
JK: For Namibia, that is what works.
KD: That is the difference here.
JK: Well, thank you so much. We are runningrunning outout ofof time.time. ThankThank you.you.
KD: You are very welcome.
3333 Yale-UN Oral History Project Bishop Kleopas DumeniDumeni Jean Krasno, InterviewerInterviewer March 17, 19991999 Oniipa, NamibiaNamibia
Name Index: Namibian Independence:Independence: Role of thethe ChurchChurch
Ahtisaari, Martti 13, 14, 17,21-23 Alho, Victor 66 Auala, Bishop Leonard 2,62,6 Crocker, Chester 99 Geil1gob,Geingob, Hage 2626 Hukka, AJpo 66 Nujoma, Sam 2626 Olsol1,Olson, Berger 66 Perez de Cu61lar,Cuellar, Javier 2828 Rautanel1,Rautanen, Martti 1414 Tjitendero, Mose 2626 UNITED NATIONS, DAG HAMMARSKJOLD LIBRARYI.IBRARY r \111'111I1111\11111111I111~111111~llllllllr,\1111\\\\11\\111\ II\I! II1 \\\1\ 111\ 1\\ \1\\\ \\1\\\\\\\ III!I!11I1I1I1II1I1I1\\ \1\ \\\\ . ~ -~--_ 11949002086648002Ct8_§64_8~""_.--~-_.-._-_._-_.-.-- ._--~ ~___L!?49.._..... _._-,--_...... ::., .. I li
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