Austrian Economics and Culture an Interview with Paul Cantor

Austrian Economics and Culture An Interview With Paul Cantor

Spring 2001 — Volume 21, number 1 THE AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS NEWSLETTER Spring 2001 — Volume 21, Number 1

The Austrian Economics Newsletter is published quarterly by the Ludwig von Mises Institute. An Interview With Paul Cantor

AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS AND CULTURE

AEN: Before we get to your work on popoular culture, let’s examine your literary project.

CANTOR: The project of looking at literature with capitalist eyes began when I prepared a paper for a 1992 Mises Insti- tute conference, and won the prize for the best paper. But it’s something that I had been thinking about for years. I won- AUL ANTOR dered how I could put to use the training I had in Austrian P C economics within my own area of specialization.

Dr. Cantor studied at Ludwig von AEN: The union of economics and literary criticism was Mises’s New York seminar before already well established in your profession? taking his B.A. and Ph.D. at Harvard. He is a professor of English at the University of Virginia, and the author CANTOR: Yes, in fact there seems to be an automatic of Shakespeare’s Rome: Republic identification: if you talk about economics and literature, and Empire (Cornell University Press, you have to be Marxist. By the mid-1980s, that point of view 1976), Creature and Creator: Myth- dominated literary criticism. making and English Romanticism (Cambridge University Press, 1984), and, soon to be published, Gilligan By the late 1980s, however, Marxism had been discredited in Unbound: Popular Culture in the virtually every other intellectual endeavor. The collapse of Age of Globalization (Rowman real socialism in Eastern Europe was the final blow to the and Littlefield, 2001). theoretical and practical case for socialism. But here were literary critics who were Marxists and acting as if nothing had He is also the author of articles on literary criticism and economic happened. It would be like writing on literature and astron- theory in the Review of Austrian omy from a Ptolemaic perspective. Economics and the Journal of Libertarian Studies. I set out to show that it is possible to talk about literature and economics in ways that are not Marxist. For example, Dr. Cantor may be contacted via many Marxist critics were showing how literature often sup- email at [email protected]. He was interviewed during the February 2001 ports capitalist ideology. In fact, it seemed to me that many Mises Institute conference, “Liberty authors were programmatically left-wing and were seeking to and Public Life.” debunk the market economy. Shouldn’t we take notice of that LUDWIG VON MISES INSTITUTE

fact? And what about those writ- authority and prestige, and the should regret. This is a good indi- ers who understand market eco- old were denigrated. Instead of cation of how strong the anti- nomics? We should take notice of saving, housewives struggled to capitalist mentality is. These peo- their insights too. Hence, I spend as much money as possible. ple will praise anything that isn’t decided to turn the tables on the Hyperinflation led to a kind of capitalism. Left. hyperreality in which nothing has a fixed meaning. Society spun out I wrote an essay dealing with AEN: What was your first effort? of control. Percy Shelley, published in the Journal of Libertarian Studies. I CANTOR: It was a reinterpreta- This is all very canny on Mann’s showed that as a progressive in tion of Thomas Mann’s “Disor- part. He didn’t know Austrian the early nineteenth century, he der and Early Sorrow” in light of economics or Mises’s theory, but was rejecting the old mercantilist Misesian monetary theory. The as an artist, he had a feel for the system in Britain and arguing for results were quite fruitful. In his cultural consequences of infla- the gold standard. I argued that tion. But critics who are unfamil- even a real Marxist would have to iar with the literature on inflation see him as a progressive because THIS IS A GOOD might miss his point entirely. he was rejecting the remnants of feudalism. INDICATION By the way, Mann’s story also applies today. Some of the same But somehow the Marxist critics OF HOW cultural consequences—the under- missed this point. When critics STRONG THE mining of traditional authority, discuss his essay, “A Philosophical the subsidizing of youth—are all View of Reform,” they are utterly ANTICAPITALIST present. How much of this is due puzzled as to why he is arguing to expansive monetary policy is for the gold standard. But it is MENTALITY IS. up to the economist to discover. clear that he saw paper money as a tool of the well-connected rich. THESE PEOPLE AEN: Presumably even the Left Critics think of Shelley as a radi- should recognize the destructive cal whom they ought to like but WILL PRAISE power of inflation. they have no conception of what ANYTHING radicalism actually meant in those CANTOR: And yet it is some- days. It didn’t mean socialism as THAT ISN’T times difficult to predict their we know it now; it often meant likes and dislikes. Though literary laissez-faire. CAPITALISM. critics are mostly Marxists, they do not even accept Marx’s view AEN: What do you say to critics that the change from feudalism to who accuse you of doing the story, set in Germany at the time capitalism was a welcome event same thing to literature that the of the great inflation, the entire dictated by the forces of history. Marxists do, only with a different culture and economy is turned They still tend to romanticize the political agenda? upside down because of the soar- Middle Ages as some sort of glo- ing price of absolutely everything. rious precapitalist utopia. CANTOR: I hear that all the time. That criticism just rolls The people’s time preferences, as For example, the critics write off my back. The problem with Mises called them, were soaring essays on Shakespeare that dis- economic criticism of literature as well. In the inflationary envi- cuss the breakdown of the feudal is not that it takes account of ronment, the young had the order as if that is something we economics but that it uses bad

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left a vacuum that had to be filled.

AEN: Yet, doesn’t it seem that there are intractable predisposi- tions toward socialism in the arts and humanities?

CANTOR: Yes, and I’ve written about this. Under the influence of Mises’s Anti-Capitalistic Men- tality, I have examined the socialism of H.G. Wells and Oscar Wilde, among others, and attempted to show why it has been in the interest of artists to endorse socialism. economic theory. Generally works far better than to demand THE FACT IS speaking, it is a mistake to aban- that they give up political inter- don economic and social criticism pretation entirely. Do you fight THIS: MOST to the Left, as the Right has done. fire with fire or with a vacuum? A perfect example is the old “New There is a real and justified PEOPLE COME Criticism” that wanted to separate impulse to study literature in a the study of literature from any- way that yields some greater TO LITERATURE thing in the real world. That’s understanding of the way we live. BECAUSE THEY ultimately a sterile and self- We shouldn’t tell students: “No, defeating position. don’t ask those questions!” We ARE TRYING should say, “Those questions are The fact is this: Most people come legitimate and here’s a perspec- TO LEARN to literature because they are try- tive you won’t get anywhere else.” ing to learn something about the SOMETHING world. They are interested in AEN: Are you suggesting that the important questions of economics pre-Marxist view is partially to ABOUT THE and politics. To attempt to bracket blame for the rise of the Marxian WORLD these subjects out and arrive at view? . some mythic purity is impoverish- ing. The answer isn’t to drain lit- CANTOR: Quite right. There’s a erature of economics and politics, reason Marxist criticism swept On Wilde in particular and his but to use the right kind of eco- the whole field. New Criticism’s essay, “The Soul of Man Under nomics and politics to arrive at a attempt to talk about the “genetic Socialism”: this piece is not often deeper understanding of the world fallacy,” “the heresy of para- talked about because it is too that literature presents us. phrase,” “a poem should not revealing. It was an attempt at mean but be”—this is all an sincerity by the most insincere To offer students an alternate attempt to sever literature from man who ever lived. And it repre- political–economic perspective any question of meaning. This sents a rare instance when a

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socialist author admits that his supply and demand. He doesn’t attachment to socialism is purely like the idea that a novel by aesthetic. Anthony Trollope should be suc- ADDITIONAL cessful because people like it. For example, Wilde says that he Why should common people be RESOURCES: finds poor people ugly, so there- able to judge Wilde? fore he would like someone to take care of them, which almost It is a very good essay to see just BOOKS: means to get rid of them. This how reactionary socialism is. The passage suggests why it is that so real key to understanding why Paul A. Cantor, Shakespeare: many artists have ended up being Hamlet (Cambridge University Castro is so popular with Latin Press, 1989). socialists. They would like some- American authors—and why one else to take care of the prob- socialism attracts so many writers Ludwig von Mises, The Anti- lem of the un-beautiful. and artists—is that these writers Capitalistic Mentality (Libertarian Press, 1972). feel underappreciated by the market. They are looking for the Michael Valdez Moses, The Novel Great Man, the dictator who will and the Globalization of Culture recognize their genius and exalt (Oxford University Press, 1995). ONE OF THE their talents above the petty bourgeoisie. ARTICLES BY PAUL CANTOR: GREAT LIES “Hyperinflation and Hyperreality: This was the reason behind Ezra OF SOCIALISM Thomas Mann in Light of Austrian Pound’s fascination with Mus- Economics,” Review of Austrian IS THAT IT solini, for example. But we know Economics (1994). about the authors who are “Oscar Wilde: The Man of Soul IS SOMEHOW attracted to fascism, yet hear Under Socialism,” in Beauty and much less about those who are the Critic: Aesthetics in the Age of INTERESTED still attracted to socialism. It all Cultural Studies, James Soderholm, stems from the same impulse. ed. (University of Alabama Press, IN TRUE ART. 1997).

We are now in a situation in “The Poet As Economist: Shelley's which the only arguments Critique of Paper Money and the remaining for socialism are aes- British National Debt,” Journal of thetic. But one of the great lies of Libertarian Studies (Summer AEN: That might explain why 1997). Wilde isn’t usually listed among socialism is that it is somehow the great socialist writers. interested in true art. Whatever “The Invisible Man and the Invisi- might be said about the taste of ble Hand: H.G. Wells’s Critique the masses, it is probably better of Capitalism,” American Scholar CANTOR: And to his credit, (Summer 1999). Wilde didn’t even attempt to than that of government bureau- make the economic argument. crats who pick and choose art “Pro Wrestling and the End of These days, hardly any leftist under socialist dictatorship. As History,” Weekly Standard, October 4, 1999. bothers to do so. In this Wilde patrons of art, socialist dictators essay, you see the core of what have a miserable record. “The Simpsons: Atomistic Politics remains. He is looking back nos- and the Nuclear Family,” Political talgically to the age of patron- AEN: And yet Wilde writes in that Theory (December 1999). age. He does not like the laws of essay that the ideal government

6 AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS NEWSLETTER LUDWIG VON MISES INSTITUTE for an artist is no government at had to roust Yudina and the of high art that we find. Com- all. orchestra out of bed to record it, mercial tie-ins were common, so and the record was delivered the that Wilde’s American tour was CANTOR: Yes, he does. And in next morning. That was the designed to prepare the way for his defense, socialism for him record on the player when they the opening of Gilbert and Sulli- doesn’t mean the Soviet Union. found Stalin dead. van’s opera Patience. With every But this underscores the point Dickens novel, there were action that he was very confused: Social- The capitalist marketplace has at figures ready to sell. There were ism for Wilde is just an artistic least as good a record in encour- many gimmicks of all sorts, such fantasy. What it really comes aging good art as aristocratic as serialization in magazines, all down to is this: Socialism is not patronage, and certainly far bet- of which were designed to pitch capitalism. It is not the market ter than government bureaucracy. art to the masses in order to make economy. The consumer is not Of those three categories, aristo- money. It produced a lot of great king. That is why artists are cratic patronage did very well, art. drawn to socialism. They hope especially during the Renais- that socialism will liberate them sance. Yet Shakespeare wrote for from their greatest fear: being the market. J.S. Bach wrote for a ISES IS judged by the common man. kind of marketplace, as did Han- M del. The opera and the novel in CORRECT TO AEN: You use the term patronage the nineteenth century were without distinguishing private spurred by a middle-class market- OBSERVE THAT from public. place. SUCCESSFUL CANTOR: There is a distinction AEN: For that matter, Wilde between government support of himself wrote for the market- ARTISTS the arts and private support. But place. SOMETIMES there’s also a distinction between aristocratic patronage and the CANTOR: He was very savvy at HAVE THE commercial marketplace. It is the marketing himself, and he was latter that mostly terrifies artists, intensely competitive. He was a MOST INTENSE though I think it can be shown master of the media world of the that the commercial marketplace time. That’s one of the ironies. PRO-SOCIALIST has actually been very good for Mises is correct to observe that art. Tyler Cowen makes this argu- successful artists sometimes have SYMPATHIES. ment. the most intense pro-socialist sympathies. They develop a bad But we need to be careful not to conscience about their success It is a Romantic myth that artists judge a system of government by after the public rewards them. are not in it for the money. Many the kind of art it delivers. Stalin They regret having defeated their were and are, and that is perfectly had pretty good taste in music. competitors, and they are not okay. It’s how they hope to get He died listening to Mozart’s really sure that they are as tal- money that is at issue. In Shake- Twenty-third Piano Concerto, a ented as their profits suggest. speare’s case, he could write recording by Maria Yudina. He poetry or write drama. He chose had heard it on the radio and By the way, the world of the Vic- to write drama because that’s demanded that he own it. Unfortu- torian period was much closer to where the money was. Thanks to nately, it was a live performance he our times than we think. It was the the marketplace, we have Hamlet had heard. So Stalin’s henchmen first full-scale commercialization and King Lear.

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AEN: You liked the film Shake- speare in Love because it showed the commercial side of the play- wright.

CANTOR: Yes, that was a virtue of that film, for all of its silly anachronisms. Indeed, we see the first indication of the commercial merging of art and the marketplace in the Elizabethan theater. I have essays on both Christopher Marlowe and Ben Jonson that cover this topic, showing that

THE NEED OF MARKETS TO APPLY AEN: Which particular artists in about great art. And artists in STANDARDS OF history are both brilliant and orig- many ways have felt more com- inal and perfectly at peace with fortable with aristocrats than with UTILITY AND the commercial marketplace? the middle class. In the rare cases RATIONALITY when they embrace the classical- CANTOR: A very difficult ques- liberal order, it is at best half- OFTEN RUBS tion. I can’t think of any. There is hearted. a certain tension between the aes- ARTISTS THE thetic and economic realms. The Maybe one of the best literary need of markets to apply stan- defenses of capitalism ever is WRONG WAY. dards of utility and rationality Elizabeth Gaskill’s North and often rubs artists the wrong way. South, which came out in 1855. At best, what you get are artists She defends the modern industri- they were both fascinated by the capitalist order beginning to who are not completely hostile to alists in the city of Manchester. develop in their time. the market. For example, Joseph Yet even here, there is a bit of Conrad in his book The Secret nostalgia for the Old World: the The first literary treatment of the Agent, defends the classical-lib- middle-class capitalist protago- free market to appear anywhere, eral order against extremes of nist marries into an aristocratic so far as I can tell, is Ben Jonson’s right and left. He shows what’s family that takes some of the edge Bartholemew Fair. He essentially wrong with socialism and autoc- off him. argues for spontaneous order. In racy. He finally defends the fact, the play itself is an example British liberal order, but not with AEN: What is the effect of gov- of spontaneous order, where the great comfort. ernment support for the arts? organization appears random but an underlying order begins to What it comes down to is this: CANTOR: The idea behind gov- emerge as it develops. There is something aristocratic ernment support for art is that

8 AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS NEWSLETTER LUDWIG VON MISES INSTITUTE artists work best when they are completely uncritical regarding this fact is reflected in painting comfortable and secure in their art. and music? finances. Historical evidence suggests the opposite. It is discom- In fact, there were many aspects CANTOR: I just completed an fort and insecurity that lead to of the first performance that were essay in which I was asked to great art. Government support, bad. The orchestra couldn’t play name the five great books of the by shielding twentieth-century the music. And, more than twentieth century. I began it with artists from the marketplace, has Stravinksy’s music, the audience the sentence: “It was a dark and made art much worse. It has vir- was objecting to and laughing at stormy century,” as a parody of tually destroyed classical music in Vaslav Nijinsky’s choreography that famous opening line. It is our century. and the costumes in particular, true this point explains the stories which were indeed laughable. of Kafka and the novels of Orwell and Solzhenitsyn. They reflect Now, I’m not talking about serial- There’s a movie called Nijinksy ism as such, the origin of which that featured some scenes that was driven by an inner imperative made me think, “What an awful of artistic development. But why movie. These costumes are so did an entire generation of com- stupid!” Two weeks later, I was at GOVERNMENT posers attempt to mimic this the New York Museum of Nat- SUPPORT BY technique and do such a bad job? ural History, which had a travel- , That’s where the government, ing exhibit of the original Rite of SHIELDING university, and foundation grants Spring costumes, and, indeed, the were decisive. It’s one thing for Nijinsky movie was completely TWENTIETH- Schoenberg to compose in the accurate. 12-tone method; it’s something CENTURY else for armies of imitators to Because of the myth of that one believe they could make a living night in Paris, we are left with a ARTISTS by impersonating him. legacy that an audience must FROM THE never boo a piece of classical AEN: Yet it is considered uncouth music. Even worse, we are under MARKETPLACE, to criticize any art these days, the assumption that if a piece of particularly that which the gov- music is booed, it must be good. HAS MADE ART ernment has subsidized. In fact, a lot of us, if we could see the Rite as it was originally per- MUCH WORSE. CANTOR: True indeed. I think formed, would probably hoot it this stems from the great myth of off the stage—if we still have the the first performance of Igor critical intelligence left to make the tyranny that governments Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring. such judgments. And today, you have generated. Artists tend to According to legend, the philis- will notice that it is nearly always draw their inspiration from dis- tine audience at the Théatre des performed as a concert piece and turbing events. Champs-Elysées in Paris rioted in not as a ballet. That’s why audi- shock and outrage at the innova- ences love it. Many people think of Kafka as a tive new sounds being produced writer of metaphysical fantasies, by the orchestra. Yet today, we AEN: What about the argument portraying a purely dreamlike regard Stravinsky’s creation as a that twentieth-century art and lit- world. But anyone who, like masterpiece. The lesson here is erature is so disturbing because it Mises, grew up with the Austro- supposed to be that we should be was such a blood-soaked era, and Hungarian bureaucracy would

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know that Kafka was in many The fact that Orwell began as a respects a realist. His work res- socialist makes his criticism of onates with so many today left-wing thinking even more CALENDAR because Kafka is the great chron- searing. icler of the absurdities created by REINACH AND ROTHBARD modern government. AEN: Your newest interest is pop- —AN INTERNATIONAL ular culture, the study of which SYMPOSIUM As for Orwell, I still think he is has also been dominated by the March 29–30, 2001 undervalued: 1984 is, in fact, one Left. of the great novels of the twenti- AUSTRIAN SCHOLARS eth century. Its insights into the CANTOR: Here again, I don’t CONFERENCE 7 totalitarian mentality did not just want to see the Left dominate. March 30–31, 2001 apply to Soviet tyranny, as many The Right is making a big mis- on the Left would conveniently take by abandoning the field. ROTHBARD GRADUATE like to think. It’s amazing, for Whatever one may think of pop- SEMINAR 3 ular-culture studies, it is here to May 27–June 2, 2001 stay. One hundred years from now, if people are studying any- HISTORY OF LIBERTY thing, it will be television and SEMINAR movies from our time. Things June 24–30, 2001 I HAVE A RULE: that today are dismissed as low- brow will later be studied with a MISES UNIVERSITY 2001 BE POLITICALLY great deal of scholarly attention. August 5–11, 2001

CONSERVATIVE, What’s more, this is how it’s THE SCHLARBAUM PRIZE 2001 always been. When I was in col- AND BUT DON’T BE lege in the 1960s, talking about MISES CAMPUS DEDICATION September 28–29, 2001 INTELLECTUALLY movies in colleges was still sus- pect. Now it is perfectly ordinary, CONSERVATIVE. and now people realize that many old Hollywood directors were great artists.

I have a rule: Be politically conservative, but don’t be intellectu- example, to see how well he pre- ally conservative. The biggest dicted what we now call political problem on the Right vis-à-vis correctness. cultural criticism is this tendency toward fuddyduddyism. We need to recognize that new things He understood how the state can For more information pervert even the logic with which come along in art that are very contact the Mises Institute we think. When Orwell wrote valuable and worthy of study. 518 West Magnolia Avenue “2+2=5,” it may have sounded over Why leave the exciting stuff to Auburn, Alabama 36832-4528 the top, but that type of logic is all the Left? Students are interested Phone 334-321-2100 too prevalent on campuses today, in popular culture, and they will Fax 734-448-8148 especially if you look at the politi- gravitate toward people who talk Email [email protected] Web site www.mises.org cized attacks on the hard sciences. about it seriously.

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AEN: What is the Left’s message Empire, as he did, knew what works to be as bad as American concerning popular culture? high culture truly is. He may have television. heard Mahler conduct, for all I CANTOR: No surprise, they see know. So I would not expect him The sheer quantity of television is their study of popular culture as to have much of an appreciation what indicts it. One week of tele- making the case against capital- of popular culture. But he did see vision puts on more productions ism. Either they say that televi- that the Left was working toward than the Greek dramatists put on sion shows are secretly duping this aesthetic critique of capital- in one hundred years. But if you people into capitalist beliefs, or ism, such that they would com- cull out the best of TV, the qual- they say that the supposed lack of plain constantly about the popu- ity is quite extraordinary. I would quality of these works is a testi- larity of bad fiction and the be willing to take the twenty best mony to the culturally impover- appearance on the market of sup- movies of the twentieth century ishing aspect of capitalism—the posedly shoddy cultural products. and match them against the artis- aesthetic critique again. You have His answer was to point out that tic products of any other century, this theory of “commodification” capitalism provides more of that says that capitalism debases everything for everyone, and, everything into items that can be hence, there are more silly novels bought and sold. available. But there are also more ONE WEEK OF great works of literature available People on the Right end up con- at lower and lower prices. There TELEVISION spiring with the Left when they is more good and bad everything deliver assaults on popular cul- available because so much more PUTS ON MORE ture. Look: If popular culture is as culture is available. debased and monstrous as many PRODUCTIONS on the Right say it is, that’s a ter- rible indictment of capitalism. It AEN: Are you really dismissing THAN THE would appear that free markets, the critics who say that our artis- left to themselves, debase culture. tic standards have dramatically GREEK declined? And that’s just not true. And when DRAMATISTS CANTOR: Here’s the trouble. you say it is true, that is a huge PUT ON IN concession to the Left, which, as I One of the illusions we have explained earlier, is banking every- today is that we tend to compare ONE HUNDRED thing on an aesthetic critique of all of television with the best of the market economy. What’s Greek drama or the best of Eliza- YEARS. more, many aspects of popular bethan drama. We come away culture are far more rooted in real- thinking: What the heck has hap- life experience, and a realistic pened to the culture? appraisal of politics, than many with the exception of William things you will experience in But this is just an error. There Shakespeare. I don’t think there is many kinds of high culture. were about a thousand plays pro- another century that produced duced in the golden age of Greek twenty dramas as great as the past AEN: This is a point hinted at by tragedy, of which about fifty have century’s twenty best movies. Mises. survived. There is reason to believe that the better ones were Just think of all the capital that has CANTOR: That’s correct. Any the ones that survived. But if we gone into the motion picture man who grew up in the pre- had the whole range of Greek industry. No royal court, no prince World War I Austro-Hungarian tragedy, we would find some of the church, has presented the

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arts with as much capital as the AEN: And how does politics fit in not by a government, but by pri- free market has placed in the here? vate entrepreneurs. hands of the producers, directors, actors, and composers who work CANTOR: Over the past ten AEN: And Gilligan’s Island? to make movies today. It’s years, I’ve given lectures on these extraordinary and wonderful. topics, and I began to notice a CANTOR: Here you have this pattern. It really helped that the composite sampling of American AEN: So the substance of your Mises Institute had that “End of society dropped into an uncivi- book will be to correct both Right the State” conference, because I lized place, and they miraculously and Left. saw that the changes in popular recreate America. Democratic culture reflect this end-of-the- ideology is pervasive. For exam- CANTOR: Yes, it begins the state thesis. ple, in the episode in which they undertaking of doing pro-capital- decide to elect a president, who ist, non-leftist, popular-culture It really began to fall into place wins? Not the professor, the skip- when I saw what Gilligan’s Island per, or the millionaire, but the and Star Trek had in common. everyman—Gilligan himself. OVER THE Here are two shows that seem very different. But, in fact the themes The theme of the show is that PAST TEN are the same: Gilligan’s Island pro- Americans can be dropped any- motes the Americanization of the where on the planet and not get YEARS, I BEGAN globe, and Star Trek promotes the lost. Fast forward to 1999, and TO NOTICE A Americanization of the galaxy. you have The Blair Witch Project, in which Americans get lost in a PATTERN. In Star Trek, the crew had this thicket in Maryland, of all places. directive that said that it couldn’t When the kids sitting around the THE CHANGES interfere in the internal affairs of campfire hum the theme song other planets. But in fact, wher- from Gilligan’s Island, we are IN POPULAR ever they went, they encountered reminded how American sensibil- places that didn’t conform to the ities have changed since the CULTURE political ideals of 1960s America, 1960s. REFLECT THIS which basically means the Kennedy administration. There- In both shows, the space race pro- END-OF-THE- fore the planets were remade. vided the ideological–political Their gods had to be killed. Their backdrop. Both shows factor out STATE THESIS. computers had to be destroyed. economics and highlight politics. Both promoted global democratic Dr. Spock represented something ideology. Neither had a concep- criticism. For example, I argue of the brainy and rationalistic cen- tion of free markets. Technology that The Simpsons will go down as tral planner, a sort of McGeorge is a given. Wealth has no mean- one of the great programs in TV Bundy with funny ears. Mean- ing. history and that its satirical value while, Captain Kirk was the mili- is highly significant. I think that tary man of action who imposed The 1960s were the heyday of the X-Files has produced some of order. People talk about it as if it national television, with three the most powerful drama that has is a prophetic show, but the kind networks dominating. In the ever been on television, and that a of computers they were said to 1950s, the networks were just good episode has all the produc- have are laughable to us today. And brokers of airtime for coalitions tion value of a movie. today’s technology was created, of producers and advertisers. But

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improvement over the shows that for twenty years have down- graded fatherhood. I also love the fact that this family is often politically incorrect. Left-liberal myths are attacked at every turn. No one on the Right should object to the portrayal here.

AEN: And the X-Files?

CANTOR: In the X-Files, the portrayal of the State is even better. The show treats government as an integral part of the grand conspiracy. The level of cynicism then the FCC made a decision to Public-school teacher Edna Krab- sever advertising from the deci- appel does the minimum necessary sions about which shows were put to comply with the requirements THE MESSAGE on the air. The FCC ended up of the board of education. There IS THAT vastly increasing the power of is this overriding sense that what networks, and their decisions the government really wants is to NO MATTER began to reflect the power and take your money away. It is dis- priorities of the State. It wasn’t tant and uncaring. HOW BAD A nationalization, but it had many of the same effects. I recall that Bill Bennett blasted PARTICULAR The Simpsons as an example of the AEN: And today, the message is trash that is out there, but later, FAMILY IS, IT IS different? he admitted that he had never BETTER THAN seen it. In many ways, The Simp- CANTOR: In The Simpsons, wealth sons is a postmodern defense of NO FAMILY, AND is associated with new ideas. family values. Most of the core Marge becomes an entrepreneur. action takes place within the fam- IT IS BETTER Homer is always taking odd jobs. ily in a small town. There is even Apu Nahasapeemapetilon is for- an episode when evil government THAN THE ever hawking his Kwik-E-Mart social workers try to take the chil- wares. Ned Flanders opens a shop dren away. GOVERNMENT. for left-handed people. Many of these enterprises fail, but at least Yes, the Simpsons are dysfunc- the emphasis is on individual tional. But the message is that no toward the State in this show achievement. matter how bad a particular fam- would have been inconceivable in ily is, it is better than no family, the early 1960s, when faith in The government is represented by and it is better than the govern- government was very high the IRS and the FBI. Krusty the ment. Whatever you want to say indeed. The X-Files shows how Clown gets busted by the IRS about Homer, he is always there much more realistic we have and no one really likes the State. for the kids—and this is a big become.

VOLUME 21, NO. 1 — SPRING 2001 13 LUDWIG VON MISES INSTITUTE

In The Simpsons, the decline of the it is not all replaced at once. It and studying with Sylvester Petro. nation–state is represented by the understood that in the future, we Through him I was introdcued to triumph of enterprise and the will still use old technology. You the thought of Mises. I was in mixed social composition of know, one of the failings of science high school, age fifteen, and I Springfield. In the X-Files, glob- fiction is that it sees any given era read Human Action. One Sunday alization brings disorientation. I as a single temporal slice, as if night a friend of mine and I were use the term globalization in the everything is produced in a single sitting around, and we had the same sense that the Left does: the moment. In Star Wars, people nutty idea to call up Ludwig von increasing integration of the don’t have the capital to buy new Mises. I got out the Manhattan world economy. The impact of technology so they fix up the old phone book and my friend called globalization is strongly consid- stuff. This is a great insight. ered in today’s popular culture him up at home. I think I remem- ber that number, MOnument 2- but is absent in shows from the AEN: Do you have any comments 7077. halcyon days of the nation–state. I on the controversies over the do think that this is something canon? In looking at popular cul- free marketeers should celebrate. ture, are we neglecting the classics? Yes, we had some nerve. I would never do it today. But he was as CANTOR: I think there’s some nice as can be. He invited us up to kind of judicious combination his office and then to his seminar, I’M GOING TO that can be made between the old which I attended in 1961 through KEEP TRYING TO school and the new one. The Left 1962. Rothbard was there, Hazlitt is correct that the canon has was there, Hayek showed up. It APPLY AUSTRIAN always changed. Oxford wasn’t was dazzling. teaching Plato until the late ECONOMICS TO 1840s, for example. No university Mises was the greatest teacher I taught Dickens in 1900; it was ever had. Even at age eighty, he LITERATURE IN considered way too vulgar. was looking for new students. A WAY THAT I There was that glint and gleam in There are about five authors who his eye. I would sometimes sit HOPE WOULD must be part of the canon. But next to him. He would lecture for when you start to move away two hours with one note card. His HAVE PLEASED from Shakespeare and Dante and energy was extraordinary. It’s the like, many questions become been my idea of an ideal seminar MISES. murky. To me, it is not so much ever since. what is taught but how it is taught. I would rather hear a AEN: What’s your next project? AEN: Do you have any comments good analysis of the X-Files than a on the debate over the politics of boring analysis of Trollope. But I CANTOR: I’m going to keep try- Star Wars? also have a rule: When you talk about popular culture, tie it back ing to apply Austrian economics CANTOR: Well, I am not a huge into high culture. to literature in a way that I hope fan of the most recent movie in would have pleased Mises. I want the series, but the one thing I like AEN: How did you come to study to write about the turn to socialist about the whole series is its under Mises? ideology in late Victorian Eng- appreciation of economics. For land, for example. There’s lots of example, it demonstrates the capi- CANTOR: My brother was at the work to do, even among us non- talist truth about technology, that New York University law school economists. AEN

14 AUSTRIAN ECONOMICS NEWSLETTER About the Austrian Economics Newsletter

The Austrian Economics Newsletter began publishing in the Fall of 1977, under the auspices of the Center for Libertarian Studies, which was then located in New York City. The writers and edi- tors were part of a small but growing contingent of graduate students in economics who had been influenced by Ludwig von Mises’s New York seminar and the writings and personal example of Mises’s students Murray N. Rothbard and Israel M. Kirzner, as well as Ludwig Lachmann. Their goal was to reinvigorate Austrian theory in a new generation as a means of combating mainstream trends in economic thought.

But for the Nobel Prize given to F.A. Hayek in 1974, academia then considered Austrian economics to be a closed chapter in the history of thought, supplanted by Keynesianism and the neo- classical synthesis. The purpose of the AEN was to provide a forum for Austrian students and serve as a communication tool for the new movement. Among its most effective offerings was the interview, which provided students an inside look into the thinking, drawn out in an informal setting, of the best Austrian theorists.

At the request of the Center for Libertarian Studies, the Mises Institute assumed responsibility for the publication in 1984 and nurtured it to become the most closely read periodical in the world pertaining exclusively to the Austrian School. Two years later, Murray N. Rothbard founded the Review of Austrian Economics (later succeeded by the Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics) to provide an outlet for scholarly articles, thereby relieving the AEN of this responsibility. The AEN began to emphasize reviews, topical pieces, and, most of all, the extended interview as an effective means of highlighting the newest contributions of Austrians to the literature. Today, interview subjects are now chosen from a variety of disciplines to reflect the full influence of the Austrian tradition.

Over the years, the AEN has interviewed a variety of scholars, including the following:

Dominick T. Armentano Israel M. Kirzner Walter Block Peter G. Klein James Buchanan Ludwig M. Lachmann Thomas J. DiLorenzo Fritz Machlup Gene Epstein Roberta Modugno Roger W. Garrison Hiroyuki Okon James Grant Michael Prowse Bettina Bien Greaves Murray N. Rothbard Gottfried von Haberler Joseph T. Salerno Henry Hazlitt G.L.S. Shackle Randall G. Holcombe Karl Socher Hans-Hermann Hoppe Leland B. Yeager Jeffrey M. Herbener Pascal Salin Jesús Huerta de Soto Frank Shostak George Koether Richard K. Vedder

Complete archives of these interviews are available at http://www.mises.org/journals.asp.

With the expansion and redesign of the AEN that begins with Volume 21, the AEN seeks to put on display the energy, creativity, and productivity of today’s Austrian thinkers, who work in many fields to bring the insights of the tradition to bear on new issues of the day. It is a sign of the health and vigor of the Austrian movement that the list of thinkers slated for interview in the future grows ever longer. LUDWIG VON MISES INSTITUTE 518 West Magnolia Avenue Auburn, Alabama 36832-4528 Phone 334-321-2100 Fax 334-321-2119 Email [email protected] Web site www.mises.org