First Session - Thirty-Fourth legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on LAW AMENDMENTS 37 Elizabeth 11 Chairman Mr. H. Enns Constituency of Lakeside VOl. XXXVII No. 2 - 8 p.m., THURSDAY, DECEMBER 15, 1988. ISSN 0713-9586 MG-8048 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba ._ANITOBA L�GISI-ATIVE AfiSEMBLY Thirty ...FgurUl 1-•gill•ture -..PJ.,er$, Con$tituencie• &fld Political AHiliatioo Nftft,dF CONSTITUEfi!CY PARTY AI-OQOK,Ra Osporne LIB!:ORAL t\N«<UI.�n St. Norl:lert LIBFRAL AIHTO.,, Stev• ThompSOil NDP IUII"'LL, Ptll!'�llr Sw�n River PC oAR,Jt�rnctt Fort Rouge LIBERAL �A,.STA�IIS, $iii_,Qn River Heights LIBERAL OHARbEs, �wen Selkirk LIBERAL ctft!!�IIL\. Gu�r Kildon�n LIBERAL CHO�QPYSKI, WJQitllm Elurrows LIBERAL cO-R'( Edward � Portage la Pr�irie PC COWAN,_., Churchill I'I!DP C�S. Glen, tlf:ln. Ste. Rose du Lac PC PERK�H, L!lOnard, Hon. Rol>lin-Russell PC PO!ER, �ary Concordia NDP powNE'( ........ HOQ. Arthur PC Pfti!ED.R, Alberl, Hon. Emerson PC PRIEDGER, ._rold, L. Niakwa LIBERAL DUOHARME, Garalcl, tlf:ln. Aiel PC IEDWAfiDS,Paul St. James LIBERAL ENNS,Harry Lakeside PC eANST, 4ftn, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry LIBERAL IEVANS,L.-ard Brandon East NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC RNDLA'( Glen Hon. Virden PC GAUDR'( Neil St. Boniface LIBERAL GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa PC GA4'( Avis Ellice LIBERAL HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park PC HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas NDP HARPER, Eliiah Rupertsland NDP HELWER, l;dward R. Gimli PC HEMPHILL,Maur"n Logan NDP KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LIBERAL LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster LIBERAL .ALOWA'(Jim Elmwood NDP MANDRAKE, Ed Assinil>oia LIBERAL MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. M:orris PC t.lcCRAE,James Hon. Brandon West PC MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks LIBERAL MITCHELSON, Bonnie, t1on. River East PC NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere PC OLESON, Charlotte Hon. G.ladstone PC ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Peml>ina PC PANKRATZ,Helmut La Verendrye PC PATTERSON, Allan Radisson LIBERAL PENNER, Jlilck,Hon. Rhineland PC PLOHMAN,John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet PC ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Tu rtle Mountain PC ROCH, Gilles Springfield LIBERAL ROSE, Bob St. Vital LIBERAL STORIE, Jerry Flin Flan NDP TAYI-OR, Harold Wolseley LIBERAL URUSKI, Bill lnterlake NDP WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St. Johns NDP YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek LIBERAL LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW AMENDMENTS Thursday, December 15, 1988 TIME- 8 p.m. Bill No. 47-The Liquor Control Amendment Act (2) LOCATION- Winnipeg, Manitoba Bill No. 11-The Child Custody Enforcement Amendment Act CHAIRMAN:- Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside) Bill No. 40-The City of Wi nnipeg Amendment Act (2) ATTENDANCE - QUORUM - 6 Members of the Committee present: Hon. Messrs. McCrae, Orchard and Ducharme Messrs. Angus, Burrell, Doer, Edwards, Enns, * (2005) Ms. Hemphill, Messrs. Rose and Taylor Mr. Chairman: Committee, come to order. We have APPEARING: BILL NO. 38: a number of presentations to be made. I would seek Mr. T. Dalmyn - Canadian Mental Health some guidance from Members of the committee. I Association recognize Mr. Cowan. BILL NO. 47: Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Thank you, Mr. Mr. P. Meyer - Private Citizen Chairperson. Given that there are two Bills where there are either just one or two persons who want to make Mr. D. Sexsmith - Broadcasters' Association presentations, I would suggest that perhaps we would of Manitoba consider reviewing those Bills first, Bill No. 38 and Bill Mr. A. Peters - Private Citizen No. 47, and then go on to the other Bills where there is a longer list of presenters who would be prepared BILL NO. 11: to speak on those specific Bills. Ms. J. Bjornson - Manitoba Charter of Rights Coalition Mr. Chairman: Committee Members have heard the Ms. B. Suek - Manitoba Advisory Council of suggestion from Mr. Cowan. The Chair is open to advice the Status of Women from the committee. lt seems reasonable to me. Should Ms. M. Peek - Private Citizen that be the procedure of business? (Agreed) Mr. A. Hamer - Concerned Families for Fair I also remind our visitors and presenters that should Child Access there be other people wishing to make presentations Mr. W. Muirhead - Concerned Families for they may do so by speaking to staff, at the head of Fair Child Access the table here, to have their names added to any Bills Ms. S. Braid - Concerned Families for Fair that they wish to make presentations to. Child Access Mr. Cowan: One final point, if there are any out-of­ Ms. L. Lamb - National Association of Women town presenters, perhaps they could identify themselves and the Law and we could hear them first, as well. Dr. M. Matas - Manitoba Law Reform Association Mr. Chairman: I thank you, Mr. Cowan. That has been Mr. J. King - Family Law Subsection, the tradition of our work here at these committee Manitoba Bar Association meetings. If there are persons from out of town, out Ms. R. Rachlis - Family Mediation Manitoba of the city making presentations, we will endeavour to hear them first on the Bills that they are speaking to, Ms. N. McCormick - Private Citizen to help facilitate their presence here. Dr. C. Ross - FATHERS (Fathers Association To Have Equal Rights) BILL NQ 38-THE MENTAL HEALTH AMENDMENT ACT BILL NO. 40: Mr. N. Tu rnette - Winnipeg Greens Mr. Chairman: I will then call on presentations on Bill Mr. F. Steele - City of Winnipeg No. 38. We have two persons listed as wishing to make presentations. Bill 38, The Mental Health Amendment MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Act, I call on Mr. Bill Martin and Mr. Tony Dalmyn, I Bill No. 38-The Mental Health Amendment believe, from the Canadian Mental Health Association. Act (2) Would you please come forward? 14 Tlnsrsday, December 15, 1988 * {2010) or not and the review board has the power to make a decision on behalf of the patient, if the patient is Mr. Tooy Dalmyn (Canadian Mental Health resisting or declining treatment. What we have in Association): My name is Dalmyn. Mr. Martin and I practice is the Public Trustee being called on on the have agreed that only I will speak. spur of the moment to make very difficult decisions. I do not see a problem with the Public Tr ustee making Mr. Chairman: Thank you. the decision on adequate information. I do not see a problem with the Public Trustee making the decision Mr. Dalmyn: We have circulated a brief and left the even !hough the Public Trustee is not a doctor. The requisite number of copies with the Clerk. I do not whole idea is that, if you or I go for medical treatment, know if everyone has it in front of them at the present the medical treatment is explained to us and we apply time. our best judgment to it even though we are not doctors. Mr. Chairman: Thank you, they are being distributed What the Public Trustee brings to this task is empathy at this time. Proceed, Mr. Dalmyn. for the patient and independence. The Public Trustee is not getting a chance to do that. The legislation as Mr. Dalmyn: The remarks I am going to make are proposed here is going to write into law the idea that directed only to Sections 4 and 5 in the Bill which have the Public Tr ustee is going to make the decision on an impact on Section 5, and which enact a new Section the basis of a telephone call. You have the wording in 5.1 within -! should say subsections 5 and 5.1 of proposed 5.1 that upon being notified by the physician Section 24 of The Mental Health Act. who co mpleted a certificate that is being sent to the medical officer, the Public Trustee may give consent Se<:;lion 24 is new legislation through the 1987 to psychiatric or other medical treatment on behalf of amendments. lt provides that persons suffering from the patient until the review board or the court mental illness, like anyone suffering from any other determines the patient is mentally co mpetent or the illness, have the right to consent or not to consent to certificate is cancelled. treatment, even il they are involuntary patients in a hospital. Section 24 quite logically and reasonably In my submission to you, if it is an emergency, the provides a number of exceptions. lt provides that a doctor can deal with it under the existing law in 24.7 physician may administer emergency treatment without and 24.8. There is no need for telephone consultations. the consent of a patient; il provides that the Public In my view, and in the view of my association, the Public Trustee may authorize treatment of a patient. Trustee's involvement should be temporary. There can be differing interpretations on this. lt may well be the The Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae), in introducing opinion of the Legislature of Manitoba that the best the Bill and on second reading, quite correctly pointed course is that on a patient being found to be out an anomaly in the legislation which is being incompetent to make medical decisions, the Public corrected. The Act, as passed in 1987, says the Public Trustee should be given legal responsibility. That should Tr ustee "may give consent to treatment where the rest with the Public Tr ustee unless the patient appeals patient has been found incapable of managing his or to a review board. If that is the case, the legislation her affairs, balancing a cheque book or dealing with should spell out in 24.5 and 24.6, in similar terms to property." This amendment is designed to clear that the restrictions and the guidance given to a review up.