Elisha C. de Garis, 39 16th June, 1900. realization j is there room for more Milduras ?-Not 981. The inward and out\vard trade tha.t goes exactly in the form of Milduras. I hold that Mil from the Darling to Echuca would then be d1V~rted dura 'itself has too many eggs in one basket : it to the rail at .Yena ?-Some of it would, I thmk. should diversify its products. 982. What proportion ?--I am afraid I am not 967. To what extent can fruit be profitablv dis competent to say. posed of, that is raised in the Murray basin ?-To 983. Can you us the reason that Permewan, a verv limited extent. Wright, and Company are not now running a boat 968. You do not take into account the apole between Mildura and Swan Hill for goods and trade ?-No, the apple trade can be more profit- passengers ?-There is not the trade. ably developed on cheaper land. _ 984. Is it the rail wa y ?-Yes j there is more 969. By lVlr. Rees.-Apples can be profitably trade between Mildura and Melbourne now than grown in Mildura ?-Ves, but they have not been ever there was. The popUlation is 5,000 now, as prolitably grown there for commercial purposes. against 2,500 before the railway. At the beginning 970. As a resident there for seventeen years you the boats had all the trade; now the railways have would take note of the course of trade. Can you the bulk of'it. state how the trade has been divided between South Australian and Victorian ports ?-The Mildura out 985. The oompetition of the railway during the ward trade almost exclusively comes this way to navigable periOd lias knocked out the boat traffic Melbourne, and to a sinaII extent up the river. or: the upper reaches of the riyer between Mildura and Swan Hill or Echuca.-:--it has really stopped 97 L I am speaking of the Darling trade '?-=::-The stores, that is the inward trade, goes at present to th!, boats from running?-Yes j there is the fact a considerable extent through Mildura since we got that the railway has done this at a cut rate, but the railway. I think that applies chiefly to the still at a rate which pays working expenses and non-navigable period of the river, and to goods in iI~terest. which speed is a consideration. ' 986. We wele told this morning that the Mildura 972. Where are those goods exported to from line W 995. It is not owing to unsuitability of the -TUESDAY, 29th JUNE, 1909. soil ?-?'-ro; the soil is not unsuitable. Present: , 996. Is there sufficient water in connexion with the pumping scheme at lHildura to irrigate a D. MACKINNON, ESQ., M.L.A., in the Chair; greater mea than you have irrigated there ?-;-No ; The Honorable R. H. S. Abbott; M.L.C. they could not very largely increase the area; they J. J. Carlisle, Esq., M.L.A. would want additional plant. I do not think we J. Lemmon, Esq., YLL.A. are at the full limit yet, but we are approaching J. Gray, Esq., 'M.L.A. it, John McGregor, sworn and examined. 997· There has never been a period when there 1006. By tlte Cltairman.-What are you ?-A was not plenty of water for you. to pump ?-No. civil engineer. 998. By //lr. Rees.-As' to the effect of a freshet 1007. Have you had any special experience in in the Darling on the flow of the Murray gt Mil connexion with hydraulic engineering?-~-Yes, I have bee.n employed from time to time by t~le Victorian dura, does the water backup to Mil'dura?-YesJ . a considerable distance. Government during the last fifteen or SIxteen. yean, and have special! y reported on seventeen (~Iffer~nt 999· By Mr. .4bbott.~-When vou have a low water supply' schemes for the State of Vlctona ; river, and you are pumping.,do. you find the nearly all the large ones. water gets brackish, or is it undesirable for irrigation 1008. You are not now in Governme.nt employ purposes ?~-That has never come under my notice. ment?-No. The whole of die town of Mildura. uses the Murray 1009. Are you practising your profession here ?- water when the river is high, and when it is low-, Yes. and I have heard no complaints about the water 1010. You know something about the Upper being brackish. Murray storages Cumberoona and Talma~mo~ Yes. In 1900 J was employed by the Vlctonan 1000. B), the Chairman.-With your experience. Government. I think the Railways Standing Com which do YOll place iirst, if one has to be aban mittee suggested that I should be employed to il; doned--irrigation or navigation ?-Navigation, of vestiaate the Murrav River, and try and find out, If course. Navigation is the transport of product:':; possible, whether' ~ve could get a diversion from irrigation is the creation of produce, that·' is, the the i'v[urray River to join the Goulburn to feed the creation of wealtfi. If you have not the produce Goulburn storage and carry the water weshyard to carry, ',what is the use of the means to carry into the Mallee counti-y. During that' exploration, it?- If you use water out of the river for irrig8- which took some considerable time, I had occasion tion, YOll increase produce, and th:.1t. needs to be to look into the subject very closely, and to study carried: but if vou leave the water in the river it. The storacre that I recommended was the for na;igation, you have the means of transport, upper one, called Talmalmo, with a weir ~t B~n but you have nothing to carry. If the river gowannah, and nn off-tnke channel on the Vlctonan channel, instead of being filled with water, was side. I laid down a channel to come from BU[l filled with a quart7: lode that would yield h:l1f it guwannah to join the Goulburn weir, so' that we million a vear in dividends, anel four and a h:llf should get a' supplementary supply of water from millions in wages-would there be a demarid then the Murray River to go westward into the ·Mallee that that shouia he used as a means of transport country. . as a road bed? That is the position here. Jf the IOri:. What was your opinion of the storage water is put on the land that will increase the there ?-There are two' good sites. After I had .production of Victoria by five millions per annun~, made my report the Royal Commission of 1902 of which about one-tenth could be reckoned as the value of the water, nnd the rest would be wJges. favoured the Cumberoona site, lower down, but the engineers before them did not do so; they favoured IOOr. You do not approve of the locking of the the Talmalmo. I believe they are both very good i'vlurrav?-No. I think weirs will have to be built sites. , In my evidence I am going to recommend I for di~'ersion purposes, If we can make a whole thJt both storages should be constructed, because I series of irrigation settlements, with low pumpin(; think that is probably the keynote to the whole Mur or gravitation irrigation, that is to the adv<:mtage rav Basin scheme. not merely of Hie persons on the spot, -but the -1012. W,hat distance ap:Ht are those two 5to,,-' whole community. :1ges?-They· are quite far enough apart to· be filled without touching each other. 1002. JJv Mr. Grav.-Do the Mildura Trust lOIS. Have you made estimate. of the cos: , still collect the rate ?-Yes. of each of these storages I dId not make 1003· What' becomes of that rate ?-Tbat takes an estimate of the Cumberoona one, but Mr. Wade, the engineer for New South Wales, submitted an IIp debenhires. The Mildura Council had to find the bnd upon which the railway ;5 built. We estimate to the Royal Commission of -19°2. . paid for th:1t land by money raised upon deben lOI4. ,Did you see that ?-Yes. , t,nres, and this' rate takes up £200 worth of those 1015. Did you agree with that?--So far as J debentures every year, and pays .the interest. know. It is a difficult thing to check an estimate of thnt kind without a survey. r094. None of it gees to revenue ?--No. ]OI6. How about the Talmalmo ?-I think that could be done for less money. I think about half 10°5. Is it not a deficiency rate ?-No. We a million will be quite enough. are liabie to a dt;ficienc), rate, in addition, up 1017. What is the capacity of it ?-Very nearly to IS. in the pound, but we haye never been asked the same. It could be made almost the same. The t(l pay it, and Hiere is no chance of our being two together hold 45,000,000,000 c.f. One has ilsked now, because the line is paying. 25,000,000,000 c.f.; the other 22,000,000,000 c.f. Cumberoona is the largest. T he witness l/.;itl?drew. JOI8. From an engineering point of view, vou 'rega,rd these as qu~te practicable storages?-Yes, A.djotlmed. lhey are very good SItes. John lI!QGrcgor. 29th June, 1909. 1019. YVhy do you recommend these two stor but in addition to that, before you can make a port ages ?-Because storage is a most important ques of it, for canalizing Frenchman's Creek, I require tion in connexion with irrigation, and the Murray a further sum. Basin water supply. The rainfall is so variable 1036. Apart from that port, a storage could Ix:: and uncertain that it seems to me tQ, be highl y desir made for about £100,000 ?-Yes; but I have an able to conserve all the water that you can on the additional sum for canalizing Frenchman's Creek upper reaches of the river and where we can get and giving shipping accommodation. I have good sites that will command the country below. £35,000 for that. 1020. Will you get a fall r-Yes. 1°37. I understand these estimates have been 1021. You spoke about a channel to run into the made in connexio.n with some urivate enterprise that Goulburn weir. Do you know anything of the you have been concerned in?-Yes, long ago. country that that proposed channel would pass 1038. They are business estimates r-Yes. through ?-Yes, I have worked all over it. 1039. You have no interest in increasing or de 1022. Is there a good area of irrigable country creasing them ?-No. there ?-Yes, of very good land. 1040. Your personal interest was in their being 1023. Easily made available for irrigation? accurate?-Yes, and, if possible, to allow a fair Yes, a very large area of it. I do not remember margin of profit. There was a great risk to be the area. My studies were devoted to getting the taken. water to join the Goulburn weir to feed the War 1041. What would be the use of a storage of that anga Basin. This was a feeder from the Murray kind at that point ?-It would be of immense value River to the Goulburn. to South Australia in the first place, and in the 1024. Could those storages which you propose be second place it _WOUld intercept all the surplus water used for the purpose of maintaining the navigable that came down the river until it was filled. By condition of the river ?-Certainly, if it were found placing the weir lower down the water is bound desirable, if the three States agreed to it, and were to flow into the lake, and fill it. Another immense willing to cl'evote it to that purpose, but my obj€{Ct advantage that it would have is that, in the event. in storing the water would be more to regulate the of the centre reach of the Murray River being catchment. canalized at any future time, all the water U~e(l 1025. You would intercept the flood water? for locking could be run into the lake, instead of Yes, and regulate the discharge of the river to a allowing it to pass down to the oc.ean, and be great extent; we would not be liable to such heavy wasted. floods then. 1042 . What would be the effect of intercepting 1026. Could you indicate any use that that stor the water at this lock and weir that you propose on age would have for the State of New South Wales? the river immediately below? Will not the effect -Yes j New South Wales would take its share of putting the lock there be to lower the river imme off its own side of the river at Bungowannah. diately below?-Certainly. 1027. What \\'ould you do there ?-Put a weir I043· And it may have the effect of stopping across; what is called a diversion weir. There navigation ?-I provide for that by joining the would be no leek on it. It is too high for naviga railway from :Morgan to the new inland port. tion. I would have a diversion weir, with an off 1044. You suggest that a railway shOUld take the take on one side for New South Wales, <\JId an place of navigation in the lower reaches?-Yes, other on the other side for Victoria. New South below that point. Wales has a scheme of distribution arranged for" 1045. You propose that the port for Adelaide on its own side .. the river should be at Lake Victoria?-Yes. 1028. Do you 'know anything about that scheme? I046. What position would the existi~g ,ports -Yes. down the river be in if that were carried ·out ?-I 1029. Does it command a large amount of irrig should abandon them as ports completely. able country?-Yes. 1047. Would navigation be possible in that case? r030· Have you been over that cOl1l1try?-Over ---: Whi Ie' the river was high enough to discharge a large area of it. ow;r the weir, navigation could be continued, be I03!. The weir at Bungowannah would command cause the lock would be there. a very large area of country On the New_ South J048. For how many months would that last? Wales side?-Yes, a very valuable countrv. Six months, at all events. I032. Have you any other suggestions'to make 1049· For six months of the year they would gi't about storages on the Lower Murray?·-The next navigation there ?-Yeg. one is tI,e Lake Victoria storage; its estimated 1050. I understand you have got some views capacity is 22,400,000 cubic feet. The three about diversion weirs for the benefit of New South storage reservoirs have an estimated capacitv of Wales and Victoria higher up. Where would you 67 AOO,OOO cubic feet. ~ have those weirs made ?-Bungowannah is the first 1033. Do you know anything about the cost of one of the series. The next is the diversion weir the storage at Lake Victoria ?-The actual cost of for New South Wales at Tuppal Creek, near storage there is not very great, because it is a na Tocumwal. tural lake, but in order to make it effective a weir lOS!. What is yOUl' proposal with regard to that? and lock will have to be constructed down the -To construct that weir soleI v for the benefit of stream a little way, to raise the level of the Mur· New South Wales, and that Ne,~ South Wales should ray River, so as to permit of the water passing in have power to divert at any time a proportion, after through Frenchman's Creek. the water has been allocated between the three I034· The weir would be thrown across belo\\' States. It is a very suitable place, and the water Frenchman's Creek?-Yes. often goes through there now. I035· There have been various estimates of tre 1°52 • That woul~ be an inexpensive engineetins cost of that work, varying from £84,000 bv some work ?---Yes., there IS no lock required. of the South Australian experts, to £I50,;00 by I053· You would have no navigation there at all? Mr. Garson, for- the weir and the general scheme. -No, none above Echuca. Have you gone into the matter- so as to be able to J054· Then you: propose to have another diver sa)1 which is the more accurate?-For No.2, weir sion weir for the benefit of Victoria lower down? and lock for raising level of Murray at canal en Yes, a diversion weir with lOCk at Gunbower Creek trance to Lake Victoria, £100,000 is my estimate~ for Victoria. Tohn McGregor, 29th June, 1909. 42 1055. Would that be expensive ?-More expensive 1069. To some extent that is provided for in the tbn the Tuppal Creek one, because you must pro- present agreement; they all abate in the case of very vid::: a. lock. I do not propose to construct a.ny weir low water?-This was written before the agreement or b.rrier across the Murray River below Echuca was worked out. , that would interfere with future navigation. 1°70. You say it is .desirable equal quantities 1056. Do you know anything about the £ounda- should be given to New South Wales and Victoria. tions of the proposed weir at Gunbower Creek ?-~ Investigation so far seems to prove that Victoria does .:\0, only through looking at the river; no bores or not contribute so much of the water as New' South spe;;ial surveys. The geographical position is a Wales ?-I do not think, looking at it from an Aus- ene, and a spot could be found. tralian point of view, such distinction should be r057· You think it would be possible to get a made between the two States. They have both river go::;d foundation there ?-It might involve engineer- frontages, and it is an extremely difficult thing to ing difficulties, but that is a question of expenditure. prove, unless vou covered a very long period, which J will guarantee to build a weir in the vicinity some- State contribufes the greatest volume to the discharge where. of the river. When we have a snowv winter, I am 1058. What advantage would that be to Victoria? inclined'to think New South Wales 'contributes the -That commands the whole of the Gunbower larger volume j when we have not a snowy winter, I country j that distric! runs dry in the dry seasons, am disposed to think Victoria contributes the I'arger and YOll want to supply the lakes all round. volume. So, looking at it from that point of vie\\', r059. That is the Kow Swamp country-Yes; the it is scarcely worth while trying to make a distinc- whole of that system. tion between the two. 106o. Have you any figures to show what height lOp. Vou are putting the scheme of division on YOU would raise the water to in that diversion the general benefit to Australia?-I am. I have Iveir ?""":No; it would ibe governed by the country rubbed the State boundary lines off the map alto· there. . get her . 1061. Have you gone into any figmes to show 1072. Supposing developments show that irriga- what the rise in the river would be at that weir ?-- tion is of more value on the country i~ .!':lew South You can construct a weir to govern the level of the Wales than on the country iIll Victoria, from an water. . Australian point of view, you would be inclined to 1062. You would have it sufficie~tly high to amend that, and give New Soutb Wales more of the ~Clvern the Kow Swamp country. ?-Yes; otherwise water ?-Yes; if Victoria could not use it. 1 do not It Y{ould not be much use to Victoria. It can be see how vou could make the distinction if the Vic gcverned by various means, slIch as shutters, .gates, torian la,~d-owners were willing' to pay the same rates and that sort of _thing. . for the use of it as the New South Wales land-owners. 1063. Are you familiar with this division of After all, I do not think. the land on the Victorian w;]ters which forms patt of the proposed agreement side, especially the land between Bungowannah and between the States?-Ves; I ha.ve studied the sub- the Goulbum weir, can be surpassed on the other ject veiy closely some years ago, and arrived at cer- side. Ido not think there is much difference in tain conclusions. its irrigation value or its productive value. I think J064· You are familiar with the method of allo- if Victoria could use its two-fifths, it should have cation that was proPosed under these agreements? it; if if could not, by all means let New South' ~Yes; I do not approve of that method. . Wales have it. Do not let it go to the sea, and be 1065. What method would you s\lggest ?-This is • wasted. . . my method of allocating it. The risks should be 1073. By lv/r. Abbott.-What do you base South taken of uncertain rainfall, high, low, and mean Australia's allocation of one-fifth on ?-It is not a years, without committal to definite quantities of . contributor at al! to the catchment area. cu,bic feet. . I074. Then why do you give them one-fifth ?-- r066. You agree with Mr. ~{ead"s view of that? I think she is' entitled to one-fifth for many reasons. -·1 think he confirms ,vhat I had written six 'or She is, at present, using a very large vo~ume of seven years ago. Having fixed 'upon that method of the water-too much, I am sorry to say, for naviga allocating the water, I proceeded by i'nvestigation tion purposes. She wants some for irrigation. She and study to allocate the water to each of the three has a certain area of land that can be irrigated, This States. No one has apparently had the hardihood Lake Victoria storage overcomes that difficulty, and, to declare what that is, but I allocate it in this looking at the areas of land that she has fitted for way:-The allocation of capita.! cost, the yearlv irrigation and intense culture, and that she is a payments for respective States are proportioned to riparian State as well, and that the water flows the use and benefit to be derived by each State from through her territory, it seems to me to be only a the. general scheme as a whole for the proposed allo- fair allocation, because I think that would meet catIOn of available water, without committal to deli- her needs and requirements for irrigation purposes. nite quantities of cubic feet per minute or per It is definite! v given in evidence before the 1902 annum,' or even acre feet. The risk must be taken Commission 'what area South Australia claims could of the uncertain rainfn.ll, high, low, and mean years, be irrigated, and.this one-fifth would be amply suffi and the actual run off from catchments. and dis- cient for all' her' requirements. charges of the main Murray River, divided between 1075. By the Chairman.-What views do' Yot! three ripmian States, in tl~e proportions set out of hold about the cost of these various works;. how one-fifth, two-fifths, and two-fifths. That is two- should it be allocated between the States ?--Exactlv fifths for each of the upper States, and one-fifth for in the same wav. . . . the lower. 1076. Soutb'Australia should' p,ay one-fifth ?-. 1067. Do ybu include in that one-fifth for South Ves; and the other States two-fifths each. 4ustralia any proportion of the Lake' Victoria IOn. What works do you refer to ?-Referring storage water?-That is part of the storage scheme. entirely to the'main Murray River. 1068. You would .allow that right through each· 1078. You do not refer to works by New South year ?-Yes; whatever fell from the heavens, or was Wales on the I\Jurrumbidgee, nor works on the discharged in the river, I 5hould divide in these pro- GouLburn in Victori'a ?-;-No j not in this scheme, portions between the three States, but each State which I call number three; in my original design, must t3ke the risk of the uncertain rainfall and low which I 'call numher two. I have '~lJ that included. discharge. This is entitled, the Murray Ri\'er Basin Proposed John McGregor, 43 29th Juno, 1909. Inter-State Works, on the main Murray River, with 1089. You think South Australia, with one-fifth railway connexions to inland ports. Number one is of the contribution, should have one-third of the the storage reservoir Talmalmo and Cumberoona, on say in the appointment of the Board ?-I would not Upper Murray River, estimated capacity. 45,000 make any distinction. million cubic feet. The next is the storage at Lake 1°90. By the Chairman.-You think that would Victoria, estimated capacity, 22,400 million cubic be a practical way of working, and would get over feet; the total is 67,400 million cubic feet. The the political difficulty?-Yes, I think it would be estimated cost of the three storages is £1,500,000. a good way of working it. Coming to the weirs and locks, Bungowannah weir, I09,1. As to the storag50l'c:-can you tell us which for regulation of off-takes to New South Wales and would be the more valuable storage, the Goulburn Victoria, estimated cost, £100,000. The off-takes Or the Upper Murray, at the' present time?-I involve some expenditure. There are two diversions think the :Murray would be the most valuable at to the right and left banks of the river. present. 1079. By Afr. Carlisle ...... :.-Would you have a con· I092. That is, from an Australian point of view? crete weir?-Yes. -;-Looking at the general scheme, I can see New I080. Is not your estimate very low?-It is not South Wales would derive a great benefit as well. a high weir. Diversion weir for New South Wales, She would her two-fifths share. at Tuppal Creek, £.60,000; diversion weir, with I093. You think if there was a choice between -lock, at Gunbower Creek, for Victoria, estimated the two storages, the upper Murray storage is the cost, £85,000. Number two ,veir and lock for one that should be gone on with ?-Yes, decidedly. raising level of Murray river at canal entrance to I recommended that in my former report. Lake Victoria., £100,000. Extension of railway 1094. You include in that, your scheme of carry line. from Morgan to inlana port at Lake Victoria, ing water across the Goulburn Weir from Bunger about 95 miles, estimated cost, :1'.250,000. Wharf wannah?-Yes. accommodation, goods shed, cranes, and so on, at I':95· That would feed tre Goulburn acreage the port at Lake Victoria, £35,000. These items, conslderably 7-That would be a State work, of summed up, come to £2,130,000. Then I put in course. for contingencies, as it is desirable where accurate 1096. That would feed the Goulburn acreage 7- surveys have not been made to have a margin, Yes j that is what I designed it for especially. '£3701000. Total estimated cost, '£2,5°0,000; that 1097. By lVIr. Gray.-What would become d is, for the works proposed to be constructed on the the irrigation on the Lower Murrav, if all that main Murray R1ver, including the railway connexion. water is sent ,across to the Goulbur;1 ?-I propose Then I allocate the capital cost between the a diversion weir at Gunbower Creek. three States-New South Wales, two-fifths, is 1098. You propose a lock along with the weir?- £I,OOO,ooo; Victoria, two-fifths, is .l~,ooo,ooo j Yes, below Echuca. • South Australia, one-fifth, £5°0,000. 1099. By l'vlr. Cadisle.-You are aware that all . 1081. By the Clzairman.-You are practially the bridges are built for navigation right up to giving South Australia 90 miles of railway at one Corowa ?-Yes; but I think it is not worth the fifth of the cost?-Yes. expense of providing or canalizing the river above I082. By Mr. Cadisle.-In your estimate of Echuca. The railwavs are much nearer the river works, do you provide for the off-take channel. there, but in any cas~ I do not think it would be What length of off-take channel would be provided? a wise expenditure of capital to make a port at any -Just to get on to the land. higher point than Echuca. I083' By Mr. AMott.-Would not that allocation 1I00. If navigation did take place, would it not be greatlv in favour of South Australia ?-I do not be better to have a lock at Tuppal ?-I have not think so.' It is only the one-fifth. There are other provided for that. I did not anticipate that navi concessions; Victoria and New South- Wales have gation would ever be thought of, or practised, any got' a port closer up to their rivers and their naviga higher than Echuca. tion than Morgan, and they might get some of that IIOI. Boats do go up now sometimes ?-Yes but trade 'as well. from the evidence I got from lVIr. John Suthe~land I084· By Mr. Cadisle.-What would you propose Smith, who has been working the river there, I do to do with that 9:' miles of railway? Would you not think it would be worth while canalizing the let South AustralIa have the profits of that ?-Cer river above Echuca. tainly. I 102. There is a difference between canalizing 1085. By the Chairman.-How would you pro and providing a lock, in case boats did go up ?- pose that the Murray, under those condi.tions, should Yes. be controlled?-I propose that a Murray Basin 11°3. By 1I1r. Abbott.-Would there be any diffi Conservancy Board should be appointed, consist cu lty in locking the river?-No; you can put a lock ing of three members, and this Board should have wherever you put a weir, but it would cost more the power of constructing the works and controlling money. the whole water supply. They should have power I1~4. B)I 11lr. Gray.-What is the object of the by Act of Parliament to issue conservancy stock weir at Gunbower Creek ?-To send the water and raise the money for construction in that way, through Kow Swamp and the lakes of that country. indorsed bv the respective Parliaments. . lI05. You do not suggest any we~rs further down 1086. Bl' Mr. Abbott.-What would be tbeir the river ?--I ~ave one in my original scheme, but security to investors in that stock?-They .would I have taken it out in my evidence to-day-that is, have the three State Governments behind them. one at Tooleybuc. 1087. By the Clzairman..-What IpO\v'~r would II06. Where were you going to divert the water you give a body of that kind ?-Full power to (!eal to from there ?-It could be sent ~l\vav as far as wit~ th~ control ?f t;he water of the Murray basin, M.ildura, if necessary; but I have taken that one -tnat IS, the mam nver.' The\' would have no con out. trol over State works, such as the :Murrumbid"ee or TI07. By tlte Chairman.-What will be the gene the GOlllburn, but over the Murray itself. - ral effect on n~vigation if these ideas of yours are 1088. By Mr. Abbo~t.-By whom should these carried out ?--Really, according to tfie l;tter pro three Commissioners be appointed ?-One bv New posal, there are only two locks put across the river; South Wales, one bv Victoria, and one by' South one at Gunbower, and the other at Lake Victoria; Australia. .. but I look forward, and I am sure it would be a John McGregor, 29th June, 1 ~OO. 44 very unwise thing for the three States to put any season of the year, when the 'rain comes. I assume . barrier across the river that would stop future .navi th<1t they all run down during the other season of gation. the vear. 1 lOS. Speaking of the present navigation, what Il~q. By Mr. Gray.-If it was a wet season would be the effect of these stora.ges and locks on they might not be used; what would happen then? the navigability of the river?-I think the upper -The water would go to the ocean then. storages and the two locks. below Echuca would I lIB. Would you have sufficient by-wash to carry im'mensely improve the navigation of the central away such floods as we have now?-Yes. reach of the the river. . 11t9. By lilT. Abbott.--You propose a weir at . 1109. 1s it your opinion that that work would· Bungowannah; do you propose any particular kind improve the natuf,al flo\v for purposes of navigation? of weir there?-Yes, a solid weir. -It would improve the flow of tile river; between II20. No possibility of shifting to allow flood Echuca and Lake Victoria is the only part of the water to pass?-Yes j in the same \Va y that flood river that I look forward to for navigation. It wa.ters go down the Goulbml1 River now. wpuld stop navigation in the lower part of the river J {2 T. Are VOll famil iar with the class of weir altogether', unless South Australia constructed' a in operation ~t Bourke~the shutter weir?-Yes, port at the mouth of the river: It is very little I know the design of that weir. There are several use to canalize. a river unless you have a deep classes of weirs. They have been adopted In many 'water port, where large ships can come, where countries. the river boats and barges can come alongside the I I22. What is your opinion of that class' of over-sea carrier, and load direct into her. At pre weir 1-1 recommend a solid weir with regulating sent; it has to be transferred at Morgan and brought doors on the top. There are three classes of weir, to 4delaide .by ,;-ailway. By adding: the 95 miles -the solid weir, the movable weir,' and the draw to Lake Vlctona, the same functIons are per door weir, formed by the railway, and you save the immense I I 23. You prefer the solid weir?-For' that par .9ost of locking the river down below. You save ticular work; it involves a great deal of expense the water, which is more far important than the cost and attention working the, draw-door weir. of locking it. II24. Taking the movable 'weir, is it not a great IHo. From an Australian point of view, you do advantage in time of flood to allow the passage of not' approve of the six 'locks being made in South water ?-Yes; it falls down on the bottom of ·tL~ Australian territory?-Not without an ocean port. river, but it is a very temporary' thing. I do ne' Il r I. What is your objection, apart from the ex think it would be suitable for the :Murray River j and Victoria get. There are the volumes of water 1 I47. If there is only a little left, will .not these saved, and the value of the water saved. I think weirs divert it as the storage is depleted. You can the balance, if any, looking at it from a commercial not send the storage out of Tuppal Creek and GlID point of view, is in favour of the two upper riparian bower without making the quantity in the Lower States. Murray much less ?-Certainly not. II33. The actual works in South Australia would 1148. The storages were primarily for the pur· cost more than their contribution of £5oo,000? pose of supplying a sufficient body of water for the That may be so, but the value of the water to tile Lower :Murrar. in dry years?-Yes, but the Com two upper States would far more than compensate mission did not contemplate both. There are two for any cost in construction works. natural storage sites on the Darling River, near the II34· You assume that the two other States must junction of .the Darling with' the Murray. There concede something to South Australia to secure the are two lakes, . one called Menindie, and the other diversion of· the water ?-Yes. I remove the Cawndilla, which are capable of holding large quan· boundary lines off the map altogether. This is the tities of water. Lake Menindie's estimated capacity scheme I consider to be the best for the three States, is 16,70.0.,0.00.,0.0.0 cubic feet. Cawnhilla's storag~' and that is what I have been aiming at. 17,196,000,000. cubic feet. These storages could be II3S. Have you ·any knowledge of the Moira made use of. Lakes, above Echuca ?-I knew them at the time , II49. By tlte Cllairman_~You are practising I came down from Alburv. . your profession privately?-Yes. II36. You never investigated them as being a 1150.. You·are not connected with the Government possible storage for water ?·-Yes, there was one in any way?-Not at present. I have the cost here lake I saw there. I had a kmk at it, and it seemed of the railways I propose to connect with tpe river to me a pJace where a lot of water could be stored. in the future. 1137. Your allocation of two portions of two IIS!. By 111r. Abbott.-All these r.ailways would fifths, and one of one-fifth, is not based on anv take traffic to South Australia ?-I do not thipk so. scientific basis of the contributions of the States. Echuca is much nearer (0 the seaboard, and if the Simply on what you consider to be the require centre river was canalized between Lake Victoria ments ?-It is based an the contributions from tl'r and Echuca there might be a very stiff struggle for catchment areas; that is why I allot one-fifth to the traffic. I think we can look forward to the South Australia, because she· is not a contributor. dav when the central reach of the Murray River South Australia is in a strong position in many re will be canalized and used for navigation. spects, and I take an Australian view of it. I have another adjustment, in which I divided it into Il52. By l}fr. Gray.-If you spend maney for eighteen lots. I allotted seven to Victoria, seven canalizing the Murray from Wentworth to Echuca, to New South Wales, and four to South Australia; and then construct railways, you will spend one but it is not so simple. This is the simplest form sum of money to make no use of the other ?-No: that I have been able to arrive at, quite irrespective necessaril y • of the quantity of w<1:ter. Whatever quantity was 1153. By iVlr. Abbott.-If you canalize the Mur diverted annually could be allotted in that wa\,. ray, and make Echuca the chief port, what would n 38. You are a ware that in this report of the happen to the Mildura railways?-It IS curious how a country develops with public works and 1902 Commission, the allocation to New South Wales is greater than that to Victoria ?-Yes, and people. Many countries at the present moment, I never agreed with it. America, Great Britain, France, Germany, and 1I39· By Mr. Carlisle.-In your estimate for this other countries, are spending very large sums of storage reservoir, have you allowed for the purchase money on river canalization. of land ?-Yes. If it was not for land, the storage 1154. By lrfr. Gray.-And running railways reservoir would not cost anything like so much. alongside them ?~-I do not propose to run railways 1140. About how much an acre do vou allow? alongside the river; there is only one river line, The land I estimate at a very high v~lue. from Morgan to Lake Victoria. II4L £6 an acre ?-More than that, I think. The price is given in the Commission's report, and The witness withdrew. I have accepted that as the price. Edwin Bona Jones, sworn and examined. 1I42. Would you propose to build the two star· ages at once ?-One .aiter the other; ane at once, !IS5- By the Clzairman.-What me you? and the other when required. General passenger and freight aKent for the 'Vic II43· By .~Ir. Abbott.--Which is the more im torian railways. portant ?-I would build the lower one first, at IIS6. What duties are entailed by that office? Cumberoona. All matters with regard to mtes, fares, charges, and II44· By illr. Gray.-In connexion with the matters generally relating to the commercial aspect proposal to establish weirs at Gunbower Creek and of the railwavs. other places, will not that divert a large body of II57· Ho\~ fang ha.v,e you been in the ser.vice?~ water from the Murray that would otherwise flO\\{ Z4Z years. down the lowe.r reaches but New Soutb IIS8. I understand you have prepared a number Wales would anly get her share. of returns in connexion with the river 'traffic, espe II4S· How would the lower portion of the river cially as affected by the railways ?-I have. get its share ?-Tt flows down the river. . IIS9· Have Y0\:1 a return showing th~ tons of II46. The people ,on the Lower Loddon were cargo carried ,by rail on to and fH)m the river promised when a weir was put in at Laanecoorie steamers at Echuca, Swan Hill, and Mildura? they would get water sent down, but, except in ex·· Ves; \v.e prepared a return showing the business at ceptional years, the L.oddon has been dry down be· E.cbuca for the fifteen years ending December, last. low?-Yes, but if these two storages are ·constructed For Swan Hill we 'have ,o.nly information for four on the Upper Murrav they can be used to feed the years; Mildura ·has only :been opened. six years alto river, and if the water is required in the main .chan· gether, and we have only information for three nel of the Murr~l \' Ri·ver it can be let down. You Ycars. have still New South W.alesand Victoria working . Il60. This return sets .out the n.nture of the in from. four-fifths II6r. The average o,ltward traffic is about 5,767 II63. Of that,' wool appears to be a large item t tons on to the bOats?-Yes. -Approxim2tely half. (The following returns I162. The average ,inward traffic is 13,979 tons were handed in);- for Echuca?-Yes. TONS OF CARGO OARRIED RY R"HL ON 'fO, AND paOnI OFF. THE RIVER 8':EAilIERS' AT EOlWOA, SWAN HILl, AND J1IILDURA RESPECTIVELY. (0) Echuca. -~~.~---~.~~-~.~~-.---.-.-----~---~.------.-----.-.--- +------_._------ 1'0 Doats. From Boats. River Season. Total. AU Goods. Grain. Salt. Sleepers. Sawn Wool. All other ¥Jrti~~: 'fimber. Goods. ----:- --_.- ---...... ----~------.- i----- Tons. Tons. TOlls. rrons. Tons. Tom. Tons. Tons. 'l'ons. 23. 5.94 Ito 4.5.!)[j 5,854 3,895 474 166 270 28 14,W2 1,524 20,525 13.5.95 to 6. 1. 96 4,498 2,788 404 249 7!) 8,515 870 12,905 23.4.93 to 29.3.97 (J,655 4,956 397 ,312 4 9~275 775 15,7'19 1.7.97 to 7.12.97 5,653 682 145 959 432 W\ 8,317 371 11,022 7,6.98 to 21.1.99 6,489 4,7g8 225 915 159 0,706 565 13,308 7.4.99 to 12.1.00 7,810 4,546 408 1,475 1,504 715 (J,B27 599 Hl,134 6.4.00 to 2.1.01 .. 7,634 H,833 346 1,83() 1,046 53;; 7,830 828 19,752 6 . .'5.01 t.o (1.1.02 .. 8,297 8,415 318 2,005 1,709 2:38 7,594 678 :20,957 30. O. 02 to 19.11. 02 ,3.099 1,1'18 1,295 791 057 897 209 5,057 9.5.03 to 11.3.04 6,30!J 4.230 324 1,024 1,245 372 2,807 040 10,042 6.6.04 to 31.1.05 2,749 3,960 :H:i 95 1,71}5 532 3,608 133 10,41;6 17 .6.05 to 21.2.06 4,8H8 3.781 400 2,Oi9 900 5,008 913 13,081 2.4.03 to 22.2.07 5,941 5,3t15 300 1,562 670 9,162 750 17,839 18.5.07 to 8.1.08 , 5,349 97H ,190 1,530 152 8,GGO 360 11,868 11.(>'08 to 30.12.08 •• I 4,687 519 90 1,262 1,23;1 6,819 ,125 10,348 ------~ ------~ ------~-- ---'~ ---- Total (fifteen years) .. 80,502 56,922 4,364 10,331 15,950 H,229 106,187 9,700 209,683 ------A,>;crage 5,767 13,979 --.--~.---.--~~-.-----~~~--, ... --~.-~----~,---- (b) Swan Hill. Year. TOilS to Boats. Tons from Boat.s. 1905 60 Not available. 1!J06 50 Not available. 1907 149 64 1\108 194 il9 ( c) 1V[ ildllTa. (Victorian Trade only.) Year. Tom to Boots. TOllS from Boats. I!)OU 103 (j 190i 73 1908 74 ApPROXI~rA'rE DISTRIBUTION OF RIVER-BORNE TRAFFIC. (a) Echuca. ,------~--- -_.- To Boats for- *-From Boats ez- Ellston 5% Murray River 4% Darling River .. 14% Darling River .. 10% Edwards 'River 8% Ed wards Ri vel' 14°/" Balranald 19% Murrumbidgee and L[Lchlan Districts 54% Murrumbidgee and Lachlan Districts 43% All other 18% All other 11% 100% 100% . . ,------.~-.--.------.~-.~-.-.------.~---~.~----~-.-~----.-~-.-- .. The above applies to wool, hides, skins, and tallow. Salt comes from near Koondrook; S[Lwn timber and sleepers from Murray River; up and down stream; and wheat principally from the Murray River Letween Echuca and Swan Hill. (/1) Swan Hill. ,The traffic is limited, and is principally from and to the Murray and Munumbidgee Rivers. (c) M ildu1'(z. The traffic is limited, and is principally from and to Wentworth and Euston. 1I64. Have ,you any means of ascertaining small quantity of that is included in this return whether there is any traffic to and from the boats, . but there is very' little of it. other than that which is handled py the railways? 1166. By the Chairman.-You have a statement _ Tliere is a fair quantity of logs brought, princi- showing the total traffic dealt with 'bv the rail wa v pally from up-stream, which do not go on the rail- at Echuca ?-Nes j we have prepared that for 36 ways' apart from that, I think we have got practi- years. callv ~Il the traffic, even the grain for the local mills IJ67. That includes both Echuca and Swan' Hill is sent round bv trucks from the wharf. traffic, inwards and outwards ?-Yes. II6S. By ,tf~. Carlisle.--Do goods from the II68. ,what do you call in,wards 'and outwards? stores at Echuca for the boats. go by train ?-A -Inwards is the tonnage received at Echuca; OVL Edwin Bona. Jones, 47 29th June, 1909. wards is the tonnage despatched from Echuca. 1908. I presume that is affected to some extent The outwards would include the goods fonvarded by the Swan Hill traffic ?-The Swan Hill return from Deniliquin to Melbourne by. Echuca. is not very large, and a good proportion of that is grain grown locally. 1169. For the year ending 30th June, 1873, it is IDo. That grain is coming to Melbourne? almost the same as for the year endi~g 30th June, Yes. COMPARATIVE STATE~mNT SHOWL'W THE TOTAL TONNAGE OF GOODS AND. 'WOOL, RIVER-BORNE AND OTKERWISE, RECEIVED AT AND FORWARDED FROJl{ ECHUCA AND SWAN HILL. E(lHUCA. Including D. &; M. Railway). SWAN lIrLL. Year. lnwards. Outwards. Inwards. Outwards. ------Tons. Tons. Tons. Tons. Year ending 30th Ju118, 1873 .. .. : .. .. 18,786 32,579 .. ., 1874 ...... 16,153 41,262 .. . . 1875 .. '" .. 18,340 31,104 .. .. Half.y~~r endi~g 31st'beo., 1876 ...... 22,357 28,816 .. .. Year ending 31st D ec., 1877 ...... 41,601 41,234 .. . . 1878 -...... 30,022 52,806 .. .. " " 1879 ...... 21,472 48,997 .. .. " 1880 ...... 21,667 51,395 ., " 1881 " ., " 26,630 51,568 ., " , 23,618 39,354 1882 " " . .. " 1883 .. .. " 18,163 42,895 .. .. Half-y~~r endi;s; 30th June, 1884 .. .. " 6,142 17,203 .. .. Year ending 30th June, 1885 .. .. " 17,597 38,867 .. , . 1886 .. " .. 14,428 51,378 .. ., 1887 .. .. " 21,330 56,593 .. .. 1888 ., 26,324 59,976 ,...... ~" 1889 . , ,. .. 24,096 51,279 . . .. 1890 .. .. " 24,382 49,857 232 25 1891 .. .. " 25,933 49,122 3,759 411 1892 ., " .. 22,615 43,926 4,070 770 1893 .. .. " 27,622 43,541 3,260 1,716 1894 " .. " 25,892 .53,704 4,026 1,642 1895 .. .. " 20,629 52,275 3,629 5,677 " 1896 .. .. 20,696 44,991 4,801 2,815 1897. .. .' . ., 24,986 41,347 4,031 3,607 1898 .. .. ., 20,247 38,405 4,443 6,401 1899 .. .. ., 25,561 .., 43,076 3,465 - 8,414 1900 .. .. ., 27,455 45,815 4,102 8,050 " 1901 .. .. ., 24,678 51,356 3,782 6,005 1902 ...... 35,314 49,797 5,289 5,618 1903 .. .. ., 31,454 27,071 6,578 2,929 1904 .. .. ., 15,982 32,381 2,820 10,566 " 1905 .. .. ., 21,908 37,220 2,799 4,692 " 1906 .. .. ., 20,462 42,657 3,353 7,071 " 1907 ...... 28,971 59,599 4,333 9,340 " 1908 .. .. 29,672 . 34,885 5,820 1,752 " ," "I II7!. By lIfr. Abbott.-Does that. mean that COMPARATIVE STATEMENT SHOWING THE TOTAL NUMBER OF Echllca is still the most important point ?-Yes; , Ru,l-JS OF WOOL, ETC.~~on~inued. it does all the Victorian river trade. Echuca, Including r li2. That does not coincide with the statement Denlliquin that the Mildura railway has almost annihilated Year. and Swan Hill. l\I.oama the river troilic?-The i\1ildura traffic .goes by niil Railway. way. The volume of it inwards and outwards Bales. Bales. would not be more' than 7,000 or 8,000 tons j but Year ending 31st December, 1880 124,483 that of the traffic formerly sent to 1881 108,428 Echuca been di\'erted by the railway. 1882 89,500 1883 79,056 II73. By the Chalrmalt.-You have prepared Half.y~~tr enclli:g 30th 'june, 1884 Not another statement, showing the total number of Available bales of wool from all sources forwarded from ·Year ending 30th June, 1885 61,968 Echllca and Swan Hill ?-Yes; it also extends back 1886 58,398 to r873· A remarkable fact "in connexion with that 1887 77,643 1888 110,607 is that in r880 there were 124,000 bales from 1889 69,068 and last year there were only 48,000. " 1890 98,485 COMPARATIVE STATElIIENT SHOWING THE TOTAL NUMBER OF 1891 91,881 243 1892 BAT"ES OF "WOOL FROM ALL SOUROES FORWARDED FROM " I Not Not ECKUCA AND SWAN HILL. 1893 Available Available 1894 f " 1895 83,051 2,09l Echuca., " 1896 51,353 2,6« including Deniliquin " 1897 53,417 1,936 Year. and Swa.!lHill. " 1898 51,642 755 l\I.oama ,." 1899 43,331 600 Railway. 1900 38,691 804 1901 47,285 527 Bales. Bales. " Year ending 30th June, 1873 67,025 1902 45,906 458 1874 81,353 " 1903 13,770 2,480 " 1904 26,493 307 " " '1875 87,934 " Half.year ending 31st December, 1876 85,924 1905 28,299 379 Year ending 31st December, 1877 84,734 1906 )36,986 957 " 1907 57,479 1,590 .. 1878 101,289 " ,. 1879 102,738 1908 48,327 1,112 " .. " " Edwi!1l,!Qna, JOllll§, 29th Jun.e, 1009. 48 'Il74. How do you 3.ccount that?-Bv th~ II 76. Have you a retljrn for a typicnl year,. shoW= op A RETURN FOR oil. TYPICAL YEAH' SHOWING T~f! QUA;"]'!:!'!!!S 9¥ .Q;lvAlms .~:ci'D OUTWARDS C.moo jl'O~ lJ:MJII .MONTH IN THE Y;EAR. (a) Ec7mca-Rivcr SWljon, 1908. ~---...... -~-- TO.~O!"tB: \ from Bouts. Mfl~th.. Ttl011. All Goods. W}lCll.t, Salt. Sleepers. Timber. WQQI, SundrIes. ------;--- Tom~. Tor,,,,, Tons. ToIlS. Tons, Tons. Tons. June 27(; .. 177 .. . . ;]ulv 804 '~!l .. 3GO 373 . .. 4() 808 August 044 .Ill! .. 75 150 214 76 70(j Scptemt)\ll' /;'iO ~3 .. 03 217 1,'110 ,15 2.088 October l1l1 .. 31l 1~:3 185 2,H07 118 3,372 November 913 .. . . 150 HiS 1,362 ;'16. 1,722 Decel1l~e, !{8» !i~j} 51 218 140 56(; 101 !,475 ---:--~-:::·':'-1~ ------:---===-= 4,687 Cilll 90 1,262 1,233 6,819 ,425 10,348 .._- . ~-.. . ,- ~ - , .. .. (b) Swan Hitt-=:/#ver Season, HJ08. Month, Tqqs t9 TOllS from 13qats. July 40 20 August i1 13 Septcmb(jr ,. ilO Hi . October l6 4- Nove~ber 92 3 Decel~l;>?r 5 3' :rotal 1\)4 Total 59 (p) 11Iildum~Ri'/l~r Sea801L, Hl08. Tit)) tonnage ~s !.imited, and distl'il:>iJ.tjon not !l.yail'l\)I~. I! 77, Have you m£lde a statem?nt showing tbe Iq8. TlYa,t indicates that the cargo received from boats iS~53 per c{':nt. of wool, and 29 per prinGiplll inward <:;!U'!;\'o for each of the princjpal cent. is wheat, and that the traffic up the, river ports ?-Yes, the information is shown in detail per cent. sugar, 14 per cent. manure, 24 per cent. goods, such as .SO;1p, wool: f9rEchuca. The others are not very im~ortant. r'[lcks, and so 01) ?-Yes. PRINCIPAL INWARDS CARGO !leT E40!~ OF TH~ rQWrf,!. (al Eelluca. To Boats. :fp;nn Bonts. Approximate ,A.pproximat.\J average average Descfip~Wn. Percen.tage Description. Pe!centage of of Total. Total. Sugar Wool 53 lVIanurcs \\'b.eat 29 Flour Sleepe~~ 8 Wire Sp,wn ~i,mb(jJ! 3 Tiro.ber Salt 2 AgricultumlProduce Othel.' goods 5 SOI1P, WoolPlH':,ks, Cornsacks, J~~.ro8ene, Beer, f}a}v~n.iz!rl :lJ1m .• Spil:!t~, Han,lw!tre, Drapery, and t)~her Goods 100 100 ----- ~----~-~------~'--,-.-,.-"--~--"'-' -----~-- (b) Swan Hill, and Mildw·(t. 'This tra$.c is limited, and consists of gQods to boats, and fish, WQQI, skins, &0., fl'Om P9!ttB. P79. fIavf;': you prepared a statement indicating oE the :river traffic going to ri;er ports goes to tht;! th~ distrib1JtiQP, and plac~ origin of river-borne 'Murrumbidgee and' LflChl3,J), 9i~tii<;t, and H per tpl.ffic?~Ye'l. cent.. to the Dilrling ?~Yes. ,Nineteen per cent. J ~.80. That seems to indicate that from Echuca, go~~ . to Ihdraqald. where the trade seems to be centred, 43 per cent. Edwin llona Joiies, 40 29th Ju.uc, 190U. 1I Ih. There is pi'actically notllillg going to South J 184. You have pl'cpal'ed some returns showing Australi,l ?-Nothing at ali. the freight charges ?-~Yes, the charges on the rail ways on car"o coming from tlle river steamers. The 1182. Of the goods coming this way, "54 per firs't stateme~t shows the ordinary rates which apply cent. comes from the~Jurrumbidgee and Lachlan, to all traffic, except the river traffic going to Euston and 10 per cent. from the Dar-ling?-That is so. and the Darling River, and there is' a separate That a pphes to IV(xJI, hides, skin, arid tallow only. statement giving the rates \~or Euston and rthe Other items of traffic, such as salt, sa'wn timber, and Darling j they are on a lc:wer scale. wheat, are all practically local. J 18S. For the Echuca flyer traffic rate to Euston and Darling, Class "C," the average rate per mile JI83. How do you get at this return; IS it a to Melbourne is 3.Iod. There is no reduction for typical year ?-No, it is an average of years; it is goods of that class to Euston ?-That is so j the an average of the last four years. Mildura rates are below the mileage scale also. STATE::IfENT OF RATES BETWEE:l1 lI (n) Ordinary Rates applicable to all TraUic except that portion at the River Traffic coming from or going .to Euston and the Da.rling River. Dried Fruits, 6·ton lots. I\etween- ?Iileage. Manures, I Wool, 5 tons. ." ·M:' "A.P." "A." .. 'B.H .. C.:' "I. .. "2"• I " "" Greasy. I Export. Local. ------: I Melbourne and E chllca .. 7/3 ll/4 10/13 • 19/-1 25/6 i 37/6 49/- i3/6 42/- Average rate pel' mile .. I 145 I . (jOel . .94d . .S7d. \ 1.57d., 2.lld. 3.l0d.. 4.06d. 6.08d. 3.4.84. I I lVlelhourne and Swan Hill .. I 214~ S/8 . 16/- 12/3 i 25/2 34/5 50/9 66/9 S4/6 103/3 51/3 Average rate per mile .48d. . 89d . .6Sd. I 1.40ti. 1.92d. 2.83d. 3. 73d. 4. 72d . 5.7(j.el. 2.86d. .. .. I l\{elhourne and }IiJdura 50/- .. \ 351t 9/10 \20/1 . 14/S 34/6 43/6 52/6 57/6 67/- 78/- 31/1 40/- Average rate per mile l.96d. 2.28d. 2.66d. 1.0Od. l.36d. 1.71d. .. I .. . 34d . i .68;1. . 50d. !.lSd. 1.48d. 1.8Od . ------~-.. -.-~---.~.------.- (6') Reduced Ratca chargeable on Traffic to or tram Eullton carried by. Rail between lvlelbourne, EchltW, and Simn Hill. - -~"-<--~'~'--.-----~ .. -.-.---"-.--"----.---"-.~"~-.--" -_._---- Sugar. Kerosene, Y' Between- Mileage. " 0." II I." H 3." Softwood Galvanized Wool, Greasy. '{·imber. Iron, Wire, and Wire )letting. ------~- --'------~ --~- Melhourne and Echnca 14.5 42/6 55/- 62/6 21/- 25/6 25/- Average rate per mile 3.5ld. 4.55d. 5.17d. 1.73d. 2.11d. 2.07d. Melhourne and Swan Hill 214-j 48/- 52/6 62/6 72/6 32/6 38/- 35/- Average rate per mile ., 2.68d. 2.93d• 3.49d. 4.05d. 1.81d. 2.12d. 1.95d. ------.--.-~.~-.----~~ ... ~. ._-_. (c) Reduoe:1 Rates cHargeable on Traffic to or irorn the Darling Diver ca-rried by Rail betlbeen Melbaurne, Ji)chuca, Swan }jill and .il1ildufCI. '--'-~-~-'------'------Sugar Soitwood and Fencing 'Yire 'Voal, Between- .. n." .. C." "L" H 2," .. 3." J'il11bo~. Woo!· Wire. Netting. Greasy' pack!!. Melhonrne and Echuca 145 25/6 25/6 30/- 35/- 21/- 15/- 23/- 19-/ 251- A verage rate pel' mile 2.11d. 2.11d. 2.4.8d. 2.90d. 1. 73d. 1. 24d. U30d. 1.57d. 2.07d. :tv1elhourne and Swan Hill .. 214~ 38/-· 38/- 42/6 50/- 32/6 27/6. 36/- 25/2 35!- Average rate per mile 2.12d. 2.12d. 2. 37d. 2.79d. 1.81d. 1.53J. 2.OId. 1AOel. 1.95d. lIIelhonrne and lI1ildura 351! 40/- 40/- 40/- 45/- 52/(j 4.0/- 49/- 4.0/- Average xa,te per mile 1.3Gd. l.36d. l.3Gd. l.53d. 1.80.1. 1. 36d. 1.30d. I.S6d. ---.--.-----.--~~"<----.---~-.~-----~-.. ~-----~.-.-"------ II86. Have you prepared a return show[ng reo II88. For the last three years the profit is v,enue, and ex~enses of the Mildura line, ana quan £'9,767, so that now there is only '£3,220 balance tIty of cargo inward and outward from IVfildura? of loss over profit on the seven years' working?- Yes, there are two separate statements; one for the Yes. • revenue, an(i{ one for the tonnage since the openin" of the Mildura ·line. '" I 87· On the first four years the loss appears to ~ .1 presume you put that line in the list of have. been £I2,987! after paying working expenses I~89· pa ymg Imes?-Yes j in another year it will a p_ and mterest on capItal cost?-Yes•. parently clear the accrued debit. 6994, j .0 50 §'l'4'l':t;;~~:j'N:'l' ~¥.PWING R!'lYENUE, WOR!{ING EXPENSES, ETC., OF TIfE WOOMELA1W.MILDUJ>A 15.1.0a to 31.3.09. ----...... -.-~ Exeuss ~~XC{J5S I.oss rroflt Capital or of Internst £ £ £ £ £ £ £ £ £ £ 15.1.03 to 30.6.03"1 227,064 1,017 320 1,:343 1,815 472 4,)31 4,503 Year ended 30.6.19U4 256,190 7,440 3,5r5 10,955 5,()()7 ii,288 10,2'!8 ' 4,9(\0 Yea,r ended 30.6.1905; 258,127 9,399 4,232 13,631 5,519 8,\12 10,:~2:3 2,21:~ Year ended 30.0.190G! 260,592 10,7M 4,070 14,800 5,(1H:~ 9,1.13 10,"[24 1,311 Year ended 30.6.19071 262,258 14,364 0,347 20,7] 1 ii,441i 14,2G(j 10,490 a,nG Y !'~H.prjerl ~Q. O·l QPs i 2~4,351' },l,\)&O 5,t3~ 20? 11 8 7,188 ~2,!)aQ lO,m4 2,:l5() Nine months ended (At 31.3.09) 31st March, 1909 .. 265,309 12,365 5,111 17,476 5;893 7,948 ;j,():~;, ---- Aggregate fp~~ H'.1.03 4-<) to 31.3.09 .. 70,301 28,7:{9 99,040 38,220 ,(..:.I G4,i40 12,987 I n,7H7 9,7H7 ! Net Net .. £3,220 ! II90. You have prepared also a ta"hle showing the quantity of cargo inwards and outwards from l\1ildurar,-Yes. The ip\vards is the quantity received at the station by rail, and outwards is the quantity despatched by rail. QUAN'J'rn: OF CARGO, INWARD AND QIJTWARD, RRmI ],-(rr:UIJRA. TOllnage of all Goods. Period. Inwa,rds. Ontwards. To Boats. From Boats. 27.10.1903 to 30.6.1904 2,2B 2,070 Not available Not available Year ending 30.6 .1V,Q5 3,730 2,884 Not available Not avail!Lhlc Year ending 30.6,1906 4,5G8 '> '>79 .103 ' (i Year ending' 30.~.1907 5,99(j ;;;1713 n Yeae ending ,3q. 6 .l9Q8 .G,42:3 :{,204 74 Totals .. 22,935 , 13,G12 250 --:-:------.:....'--'~-' .... ---.~'------_. DESCRIl'TION OF 1'RAFFIC. h~ward8.-General goods of all kinds. O'l'twards.-Principa.lly fresh and dried fruits. tr91. Do you produce a showing particulars on South Australian lines, which are inte· rested in the river trade ?-Yes. , PARTICUL.'-RS OF TRAFFIC ON THE SOUTH AUSTRALIA" LINES INTERESTED IN THE Rr'{ER TRADE. (a) Oomparatil!e Statement of I.ol.ol 'l'raj[i.c Inwards and Outwards at M'l(.l'ray·brid{fe and J110rgan. , Murray·bridge. Morgan. Received at Received at Year. Forw!'rded from Station. Station. Forwarded from Station. 1 St"tiOll. • --~ Bales of Total Tonnage, Total TOllMge, Bales of Total Tonnage, Total TOllIUtg c, Wool. all Traffic. all Traffic. Wool. all Traffic. all Traffic. ----~~ ------~-- Year endin~ June- 1889 .. .. ., 1,595 3,698 4,165 16,296 3,269 4,390 1890 .. . , · . 356 7,687 7,704 2!),866 5,!J71 4,258· 1891 . , .. .. 2.185 12,290 n,48G 28,007 n,328 a,!ll9 1892 ., .. ., 1;350 5,588 8,434' 26,7(i0 - 5,749 (I.461i 1893 . , ., 1,248 9,031) 9,70S 21,324 4,41m 4.205 ·. (240 1894 · . ., ,. 1,158 10,78(J !l,30n 1\),944 5,188 189~ .. 1,5G(; n,388 7,(\H9 24.288 5,540 5~242 · . ., · . (\,0 l!J 189(1 . , · . 2,248 4,6})0 :->,871 22,350 0,:?f)4 IJ,283 17,430 \),8\)7 4,513 1897 . , · . · , 4,740 4,8fiH ,!~20' 8,m3 1H,4\l4 n, l:{Z 3,r>55 1898 " .. .. 1 7.841 1899 .. · . .. 1.92\>. 12,878 7,644' [4,\)8S 4.977 2,H7G Z,604 1:~.370 8,Sfi2 15,85~ (i.875 2,878 1900 · . · . " , 8~12i) 3.175 190J . , .. · . ~,848 18,[\81 11'[;:n '1~,842 19,02 · . .. 1,374 11,~)~9 8,82n 10,782 14.:300 5,On 1.722 ~),287 8,104 v.4;)0 5.992 7,un 1908 · . · , · . ito 19n4 .. · . · . Z,O\)4 17,201 n,\l8G 8,580 4,fBi 5,914 1905 · . .. · . 1,S:{(} 20,19(; 8,679 8.280 [i,512 4.112 WOf> .. · . · . 5,l:i44 27,O~() l2,:38+ 7,914 5.038 '!,Oia 19,07 .. 5,071l 20,n88 l2,!'48 12,084 8,11;!,5 4,746 · . · . I 7,6\)6 1[08 · . · . ~ !'i'~8 21,~37 10,001 p,O!l8 8. .• 879 ------~ ...... --- - ..----,~ li:ilwln Bona lone", 51 29th ;r nne; 190\);' (0) Origin '0/ TI'ltflic /orwardc(l from and received at 111u'Iray-oridgc amd :Morgan. The information availabie is incomplete, and full particulars cannot be supplied, but it is understood that at 1I'Iurl'uy' bridge the traffic is largely local, while at Morgan thc river-borne traffic predominates. It is known that for the year ending January, 1009, the total river traJ]ic at Morgan was a5 unde1'- Tonnage to and from boats calTied by rail ., .• 17,086 Tonnage to and f1'Oln boats account of local flour mill. _ 2,198 Total 19,284 , A large proportion of this traffie was purely South Australian, as shown by the folloWing statement (0) :- (e) To;magc of Gornpetitive J.'raf{ic (i.e., coming from QT' going to Victoria and New South, Wales) handled at Morgan, "11 urray-bridge, and Goolwa. Morgan. Murray· bridge. Gooiwa. Year cndiug- I To River, To River, Bales Ex Rivcrt To River, Bales Ea: River, Bales Ea: Ri?&r, 01 tot",! total 01 total total 01 total total \YO(II. Tonnage. Tonnu,gc. Wool. Tonnage. Tonnage. Wool.' Tonnage. Tonnaf!~' ...... _""-----y- --~-- -~-- '--~-----:""""---~ ~------~------:n .lZ. H)O:l lO,lJ32 2.40fl 2,741 108 20 142 1,740 290 l2 28.2.1901i O,4!lS 1,Z}J8 1,24!l 3,084 588 977 4,512 752 28 28.2.19Oi 1l,SlJ2 2,IS1 1,730 2,424 GGO 1,513 4,680 i83 35 28.2.1008 1l,544 2,058 1,7S3 2,394 399 478 4,500 761 1 STATE}IENT OF RATES BETWEEN ADELAIDE, MURRAY· BRIDGE, AND MORGAN. (a) Ordill>ll'yRn,tcs (11)plicn,ble to all 'fraffic, except that portion of the River Traffic coming from or going to places outside of South Australia. Between- Miles. UMH Grain. ·-A" ceR" nc" ttln I .. 2" HS" Wool. QrellSY. ------, Adeh1ide l1nd Murray.hl'i(lge ill 5/1 6/10 8/3 10/10 14/10 19/11 26/1 32/7 19/11 A ve1:age Rat" per l\Ii!e 1.00d. 1. 34d. 1. 62d. 2.13d. 2.92d. 3.92d. 5.13d. 6.41d. 3.9,2d. Adelaide n,nd Morgau 105 32/6 8/2 9/- 11/10 I 16/1 23/9 32/6 42/4 54/5 Average Rate per Mito .."I ' .93d. l.03d. 1.35d. 1.84d• 2.71d. 3.7~d. 4.84d. 6. 22d. 3.71d. -,-.---~~.--... -~.---... (b) Reduced Rates ehnrgO!1ble on TrlLffio to or from places outside South Australia, camed by Rail between AdeJ.a.i.qe , ,and Morgan. '" ' Generr4 Traffic. Betweeu. Miles." A " ) .. B .. "0" u 1" .. 2"- Ha" '1 ----- I I Adolaide and Morgan 105 10/9 13/3 17/9 22/10 29/2 I 35/6 Average Rate per Mile .. 1. 23d. 1. 51d. 2.03d. 2.3ld. 3.33d. I 4.06d. Greasy Wool. Ea: the River Darling and the Murray River Ex the River Murray Between- Miles. up to and inclusive of and Trib utaries Enston. beyond' Euston. Adelaide ,and Morgan 105 22/- 25/6 AvewLge l{ate per :Mile 2.51d. 2.0Id. 1192 • Have you a, statement of their rates?-, II94· That was for competitive trade from out Yes, in the same form as that prepared for Echuca. side, which might be affected by ViCfol'fa and I'{ew The rates between Adel;1ide and :Mnrrav Bridge are South Wales competition ?-That is so. on mileage scale; the Morgan rates ~are 2S. 6d. more in every c::tse. Murray Bridge is 61 miles T 195. Have you prepared sjm~lar statements with 'and Morgan 1 miles from Adelai.de, regard to New South Wales ?-Yes. I have no in .II93· There a preference given to the traffic formation as to whether that traffic has been carried gomg through Morgan?-Yes, they desire to have along the river or not. The particulars are the trade throl1:g~.l\'[organ; there is. an easier grade, for Hay a.nd 130urke ,: there are very large fluc ,md better faclhtles. The rates were the same up tuations there. In T890. 55,000 h::tles 'were for to abont four years ago. but no\v 'Morgan rates are \Iarded from Bourke; in 1908, there were only a little higher. . ' 7.8,000. I) 2 Edwin Bona JOllt'S, 29th June, 1909. 52 Co~n>ARATIVE c'" !l.TEMENT 0);' 'rOTA), TUAFl<'IC, I':;-WARD ,txt> OUTWARD, AT' HAY AND BOURI(I<. ~~-~-- H,y. BOlllum, lear' ending 30th June. l<'orwaraed from St.ation. i ItcceiYecl at llcccil'cd at Station. ]:"'orwarded Irom ::5t,:l.tiOH. Station. Total Tonnage, Total rrOlllHlYC Bales of WooL liales o[ Woo], Tot,al Tonnage, rrott~l Tonnage. all Tmlti". aU Traffic. 0 J all Traffic, all Traffi", 1890 :l.+51vailable ii3,(i2{; Not av NOTE.-The retrogression shown in recent ye I.196. By frlr. Carlisle>~When was the Brewar 1197. By tlie C!tairman.~Have you, made a rina line opened ?~In 1901, that has affected the statement of tl1e rates between Sydney, N arrandera, river traffic since. . Hav, and Bourke'?-Yes. STATE~rENT OF RA'l'ES BETWEEN SYDNEY, NARRANDERA, HAY, AXD BOURKE. --"------,- ~---~ .iI1iles. "JII" ".0\ " "B" "C" .< IH "2" "3" Wool, Journey Greasy. ------...... - Sydney and Narrandera 354 19/- 11/2 28/8 48/4 G8/i; 87/5 108/1 120/- G8/11 Average Rate per Mile . (14d. .3Sd. . 1.J7 d. l.G4d . 2.!32d. 2.9Gd. 3.6Gd. 4.07d. 2.34d. Sydney and Hay .. 461 21/8 ll/IO 33/2 56/- 79/3 98/3 115/- 120/- 73/5 Average Rate per Mile . 5Gd. . 3Id. . 86d. 1.4(ici . 2.06d . 2.5Od, 2.99d. 3. 12d. 1.91d. Sydney and Bourke .. ,309 22/8 12/2 :35/2 5fj/- 83/3 102/3 12!l/2 130/- 75/5 Average Rate per Mile . 53d. . 29d. . 83c1 . l.30d . 1.9Gd. 2.4Id. 3.03d. 3.0Gd. 1. 78d. 1198. These figures have been prepared under taking l\"ew South Wales, if to carry wool your direction ?~Yes; and to the best of my know another 500 they would carry it for nothing? iedge they' are accurate. --The average rate would reduce, but when you carried' the wool a \erv distance, the variation J 199. Can you sa'y in a general W8\' whether the of Darling trade coming to Echuca as \Wedd be The'major portion of the journey would be at the same rate~the small difference in South Australic1n destinatioriii is increasing? do not think there has been very much change the flISt few' hundred miles "'0111 d be distributed. in recerit years. We get al)proximately a, quarter [202. Your Mil dura rate for greD sy wool is lower of the traffic, and jf there is' nny disposition to dis than the lowest wtes j~1 New SO'Jth Wales ?-Yes j turb that proportion, it would probablv be ill favour the J\'fildura rates are low. Ii is a matter of having of South Australia. We took the figures out for the traffic at tllOse rates, or not at all. It ~\'ould go (\01:111 to South: Australia if the rates J90.'), and the proportion was a'quarter, and I do not think it has var:ed appreciably since. were charged. 1203:' r suppose VOIl do not carry any greasv wool HOO. Bv 1111. AMott.-It seems to j)C a practice from Mildura to :Melbourne, notwithstanding those in connexion with the rnilway traffic to' make very rates ?·~No; 1 do Ilut suppose more than 100 tons divergent rates for the same class of In of wool comes .from l\,[ildura. There is no wool New South Wales, greasy wool from Nar.randera to \vorth speaking about that originates in the neigh Svdney, 354 miles, is carried at 2c1.34 per ton per bourhood of Mildura, and any Darling wool w~)Uld mile. . Thev carrv the same stuff from Hav to be brought to Echuca. The actual rate that has to Sydney, 461' miles: for 1(1.91' per' ton per mll~?~ be ])ilid from Echuca is much less than the rate from Yes j the rates are built on a tapering scale; up to Mildura. ,It is 425. from' Echuca, and 50S. from roo miles it may 'be 3d, per ton per mile; in the Mildura. next 100 it mav be 2d.. ThOBe wool rates are the 1204. Taking manures, what is the object of ordinary rates jn effect 'throughout, New South t;lking mamne by rail 3.S1 miles for 95. Iod., Wales. Narrandera to is 107 miles, and the when yon charge 7s. zc1., taking it only 143 miles? increase for that distance is only 4s. 6d. There IS ~ That is another case of the tapering rate. It is a pronounced taper 'for long distances.' higher for short 'distances than long distarices. The 1201. Do vou pay any to the cost of a.verage rate for a long. distance is necessarily lower haulage in building up the rpte. It would appear, than for a short 'distance. Edwin Bona Jones, 53 20tll June, 1900. 1205. By illr. Carlislc.-Is th3tthe ordinary was not being used, and the steamers did not come. rate for manure ?-Yes. Did that rnilwav affect the whole 'traffic of the I206. Ev "~1r. Abbott.-You h;]xe only 2S. 7d. DarJ'ing ?-,\o doubt it did, and it 'affected the for 200 miies of hauling. Is th:lt to l)revent manure trnffic to the south of the river, too; bec::tuse when going down the ri\"er by hoats ?-No; we never the ri\'er is not open they can team the goods to thought of the river traffic in connexion with manure. Bourke. The manure rate for 100 miles is 5s. id., for 200 12 cO. You do not consider the navigation on the miles' it is 8s. 6(1., a.i1Cl for 500 miles lOS. 8el. For Murray River is anything like as essential as the irri long distances the' r:1te increases very slightly. gation ?-The rail ways do not wish to lose the river • J207. Have you ';llW idea ",\1[lt loss it will entail' tr;iffic,; but from a .broad point of view, it will cer to haul that manpre at that rate for 500 miles? tainlv be more profitable to have irrigation, and nO 'Liking it by itself, 1 do not suppose it will 1J<1\. navigation, th:1I1 to have navigation, and no irriga but if we can carry manure 500 miles, antI get some tion. We will get a lot more traffic from irrigation product arising from the USe of the manure for the than we will from navigation. return journev, it m'1\' pay then; but, broadly, 122J. Is not New South Wales running wheat at there is no manure carried anv where in Victoria verI' low rates from Finley to Sydney to divert for slIch long dist:mces ;IS 350- miles, with the ex trnffic tbat would otherwise- come down' your lines? ception of :i\Hldura. -Thev have verv low rates, but I think it is 'with 1208. In connexion with the \\'orking expenses of the ge;leral object ~f having areas a long way from the ?lIilc1ura line, you h;lve been making special the seaboard made productive. There is a tremen-' erforts to make that line pay bv granting special dous Jot of wheat grown in the western portion of concessions, and facilities for trJfi'ic ?-vVe l,a\'e New South Wales. made rates that w;lI secure the major port:on of the traffic to Victori;l as aga il1st Soutil Australia. We 1221. Your tapering rates are really calculated have provided a train service which is sufficient for with ;\. view of developing the loealitv rather than requirements. with anv reference to whether the traffic pays you to get i't at that price?-I do not think any ')ne 1209. Have those rates interfered with the traffic tc> Echuca?-Yes; they hal'e diverted the Mildura would make rates that would be absolutely unpro traffic from Echuca to the railway. clucti"e, and cause the working expenses to be in excess of the revenue earned. . t ZIO. Supposing the stuff had gone down the Echuct line ihstead of the ?\"lildura line. what would 1223. In making a calculation like that you lea\"e have been the diFfel!'ence in \I1'm revenue ?--I cannut interest out altogether. You take working expenses saL the rates from Mi'lclura to 1Ilelbourne are and the revenue from traffic ?-A broad way to take milch more than the rates that were securec1 when it that if you cannot get tr:1ffic that will pay in the traffic \\"{JS carried between Echuca and ::VIel terest and working expenses, then it will pay you to bourne. ta ke any traffic, that will give more than working T 21 l. 'fhcse rates are practic;lllv I\'ith' n yic\"\ of cx~)enses. ta.king off at a different point, but' onry getting the I :?:?4.. If vall have a railway, YOU have to get same money to the Depnrtment, although \'OU are tr~lffic, whetlier it pays you or not ?~No; ·if it does h:wling 350 miles ?-~This extra traffic originates 'at not pay you, you are better without it. You must l\-[iJdura, :1S no D:1rling traffic, except a little to nnd get more than work~ng expenses, or it is unprofitable from 'Vent\\"orth, is carried on the ?I:lildura line. to .take it. 1211. Before the l\lilclura line was constructed. 1 225. \Vhen new lin.es a re brought before P ar did that traffic go to Swan Hill Or Echuca ?-Som~ liament, very often there are local rates. Have you of the dried fruit ,rent to Swan Hill, but princi- mllch of that in operation. Do you use your own pall" to Echuca. ., discretion whether you take advantage of the Act, 1213. In connexion with those sneci"l rates from ~1l1rl charge it?-The Act is always mandatory .. A Euston ancl the 'Darling. wiTi this Inter'-Stnte Com certain line WIll be constructed on condition that mission compel yOll to alter those rates ?-I cannot local rates will be cqarged until the interest and say. working expenses from the date of opening are -1114. O;.:casionalh' there nre conferences between cle,Hed off, then the local rates cease. The loe;) I the Commissioners of New South Wnles 'and Vir: rate means charging as for 'a fresh" journey, and in toria.· Are those special rates allowed bv Kew that case the higher rates which operate for short South Wales ?-Yes; they are allowed. Thev Me distances apply twice. the result of an arrangement mn,c\e ill T905 be t\reen Victoria, "New South \Vales, and South Aus· 1226. Is it not almost impossible for vou to oh tralia. t:11n those extra !:ltes in the face of the competition? 121 5. The extension. of the Kew South \V:lles -I cIa \lot know of any lines where those conditions rail\\,a\'5 in the direction of Bourke h:1s not diverted operate now_ much 'traffic from YOll ?':"-'The Bourke line was J 227. It is said it pays Ballarat to send their opened in l88:;.' . goods to Geelong to start, rather than consign from T 1 [6. You do not anticipate heing compelled to 'Fbllarat to Hamilton ?-Tbat applies from Ballarat raise your r;ltes in connexion with the riFer-borne to some of the stations. The reason is, that traffic g09ds ·from the Darling ?-No. carried over the line from Melbourne to Casterton J 2T 7. Do YOll draw :1l1V tr,1ffic to Echuca from has to compete .with the steamer running to Port the Darlin~ further up than Bourke since the weir Fairy, plus the railway rates, thence to inland and lock hnve heen pllt there ;>-1 do not think we tOWI1S. While it is not profitable to take any. traffic get much traffic from the neighbourhood of Bourke; ~t rates below working expenses, it is better, as the we obta:n isol:ltecl . lots from a 11 o\,er the place. railwn), is there, to take traffic at anvthing we can 1:::18. Can \'ou sav what amollnt of the traffi(~ get above working expenses, but in the case of the comes from \Ventlyorth ?-Verv little of the wool traffic going from Ballarat, there is no neces shown on the return ns Darling River \\"001 would sity to make special rates. You must ha ve the rates be from Wentworth, h'.lt some pi-oportion Of the fixed on some' logical hasis, and our basis is to merchandise sho\\11 as from Echuca to the Darling charge the mileage scale wherever it can be put in would be for Wentworth. effect. and only reduce where competitive' condi 1219. It was stated that the Jock on the Darling tions make it -desirable, and then we dQ not go had been allowed 10 silt up, ",hleh l1l~nnt thAt H below what i~ a profit3,ple point, Edwin B!>!18. Jones, 29th June; 1909. 54 1228. You do not take into consideration what TUESDAY; 6TH JULY, 1909. effect it has on Balla,~at ?-No. It you were to make the rate from Ballarat to Hamilton below the Present: mileage Scale when there waS no competition on that The Hon. D. MACKINNON, M.LA., in the Chair j route, you would not be a.ble to use it to charge the mileage rate from, Ballarat to St. Arnaud-that The Hon. R. H. S. Abbott, would mean you were departing from your principle. The Hon. R. B. Rees, J. Lemmon, Esq., M.L.A., 1229. It me ?llS , that the Ballarat manufacturer J. Gray, Esq., M.LA., is driven out of his own market, because the Mel G. F. Holden, Esq., M.LA. bourne; mapufaCturer can g~t his goods carried for' lc!>s, thougl1 he,has 100 miles ,more to carry?-He J 6hn Montgomery Coane, sworn and examined. is cut out by the geographical conditions, not I241. By the CJzairmall.-You are a civil engi the railways, neet?-I am. 1230. The whole policy 'of Hie Department, is to 'I242. How many years have you been practis concentrate trade in Melbourne, arid not to allow ing?-Thirty years in Victoria; before that I was places like Warrnambool or Portland to be dis in Queensland. tribution centres of goods that are sea borne?-I I243. Have YOll given special attention to hy would not say that was the policy. The desire is to draulic practice?-I have. conserve the net revenue of the Raihvay Department. 1244. Where ?-In the northern areas of Vic toria, and south of the Range. ~. Where )·ou haVe rail wa}'s touching the sea, Iz" 1245. I understand that VQU have been profes like WalTnambbol and Pohlabd, or Bairnsdale, sicnjlly engaged to" consi:der certain f,'nOJ-n,1foll would you not make as much, or more, re"'enue bv proposed from time to time between the ? chargin-g a rate that would permit the traffic to go Yes, In 1903 there was an agreement propounded that way, rather than by insisting upon everything between New South "Yales, Victoria, and SOllth Aus going by rail at loiv rates ?-I do not know that tralia, which I was asked to criticise and ,repoi't that would be so. W'e have the long railway lines upon. I would explnin that when I speak in the from MeLbourne to th08\o: places. 'We have to run first i)erson I mean my firm, my sons and myself. trains for the passenger traffic, and we can take the 1246, That was wbat you might call Mr, Irvine's goods traffic by the same trains in many cases. We agreemept ?-Yes; the report was for the Dhurrip try to get the best net results for the Railway gile Estate Company- and the .Easte):,n Goulburn Department. Irrigation League. I232. By. fi,.ir. Lei1l1no?t.-Tollching the Darling J 247. Those are both Goulburn River projects? traqe, is tHere cutting going on bet ween the Com -Yes; and my report in 1903 was afterwards used missioners of South Australia and Victoria ?-No ; by the 'Waterworks and Irrigation Trusts Associa the rates ii1 effect 110\V ha\'e lJef:n in operation for tion of Vi<;toria. We made two reports-one pn four years, and I think they are likely to stand. the 13th of MflY, and olle in November,of that year. I can giVe you a copy of them if you wish. 1233. They can be revised :H any time a mutual satisfactory arrangement, they can. 1248. ,What I want shortly ,from you is any cri- ticism you have to offer on that 1903 of I234.. Did you not state there, was a lower rate Me Irvine's ?-The criticism is in the' report. for the Ihrlirig trage compared with the ordinary I249.' Will you summarize it for m;?-The prin rates ?-Yes. cipal defect in the agreement was, from my J)oint I235· That rate might be less payable than the of vie\y, that it provided for South Austra I ia a ordinary rate ?-Yes. minimum of 150,000. cubic feet a minute at the border during the five months from February to 1236. Why' is it the Commissioners of both June, inc1usive,-the lower river period, the non~ Shtes agree to charge a rate that is really not pay navigating pedod. And it was found, on stw:hing ing ?-In of rhe Darling traffic, the whole the gaugings, that this agreement, if giVen effect question is governed', by ,the ch,arges that would be to, would leave the upper States without any water made if it welit right dO\vn the river to Goolwa, at all in vety dry )·ears, and on to Adelaide. I250. What do yon call "dry" yea.rs?-I902 1237. Victpria is i\>wer in order to get a share of and I903, for instance. the trade ?-Yes; and South Australia is lower be T25T. By Mr. Rces.-And last year also?~-l cause otherwise they ,would' not get the hade. It have not seen the gallgings for last year. I held the would go round by \vater. view that the agreement wOlllel give the \\'hole of the Murray water and it;; tributaries to South Aus- 1238. 'that mutual arrangement come to by the tralia. - , Commissioners of tIle respective States overcome~ th~ necessity of the establishing of 'an Inter-St;:!te 1252, Bv the Cltairlllall,,-It is the low months COIl!inissi<;>n ?-H is a inutually satisfactorv arrange you refer "to?-Yes. , ment. , The arrang~nient was based upon ~ the main 1253. Article 2 is as follows-[rcading the same]? tenance of the conditions existilJg at that time, 'and -T was at the deputation referred to. When a the aq.jusdn~nts ,~hat \Vere made il1 the rates were modification was submitted to me, I reported, fur with tl1at end. We increased our rates at the same ther on the J 6th, .,\nother objection was that theie rate. ' was no mention made of storage. 1254, Wil~ not that minimum of 150,000 cubie' 1239. Private competition on the water keeps yOll feet to South Australia subsequently modified? in check in order to get a fair share of the trade i' It \\'as., The next step \\"",,; to make the propor ~Yes. ~ tionate reducti'on of South Australia's allotment, as , I240· Ottrenvise both; Stales \\'ould lose the trade \I'ell ns the proportion of the reduction of the Jil'cr altogether ?-Yes ;it is a maHer of taking it in the siom;. That we considered in the light of the 1903 best way we can get it.' ligures, and found, that even then Victoria and New South \Vales would be able to divert practicallv T lie witi'zc.~s widldi·drJ. l)uthing 1I'0rth having during oroughts, and South. Australia would not have been much better off,. be .4.djoir'T/le1I, ':ause sbe: could not get navigation in ;my cafe. I .Jehu ~fontg()mery Coa.ne, 6th july, 111011. ., 1255. Do you recollect how °the flgures for ·the fails; that is, I understand, the position. t also division for the I903 agreement would work out? see that the agreement provides fo.r a storage at -Yes; I gave that in the report I made. Lake Victoria, which will have the effect-as the 1256. Can you give it shortlv now?-Yes. Tak • water will belong to South Australia fClr a con ing the I903 figures given in the summary of dis· siderable time-of enabling that flow at the bofder, charges, we fQund that South Australia, at the bor the 70,000 or less-to be supplemented from the der, in April, would have had 33,000 cubic feet Lake Victoria storage. a minute; that New South Wales would have had I266. Y ()u approve of that ?-I think that it is a at her off-takes for diversion, probably, 55,000 fair proposition-if the upper States are diverting c\lhic feet a minute; Victoria would have had I9,000 -that the stored water at Lake Victoria might be cuhic feet a minute-that is also at her off-takes. It used to supplement the river at the border iIi South is obvious that the losses are' very great when the Australia. river ;[et5 very low. I267· By IIIr. Gray.-Thev will have olit ,vater ·-12S7. By Mr. Rees.-You·say that the low river in addition ?--Yes; they will want that in additioIi. supnly would be very little use for SOllth Australia That is, II5,oOO cubic feet a minute, approxirhately; . -I\'h:lt do YOU mean by the off-takes ?-I mean the that is how it works out-the 60,000 million per points at \~hich the water is abstracted from the annum is roughly that. ri\;ers. I was taking a sort of average off-take I268. By IIIr. Rees.--The pei: annuin calculation noint in Victoria. At Cohuna they. would have is fallaciolt;;?-Yesj it is unworkable. I have cal heen abstracting some, and at Mildura some, but culated it as applying right through the year. That the' (rreat bulk would have been at the Goulburn is the only prZlcticable arrangement, on the assuinp. Vall;v. tion that the rivers are all stored arid regulated. 12.S8. Would those T9,000 cubic feet for Victoria I269' By Mr. Gray.-Yol1 say the I908 agree he the flow of the river at Echuca ?-No; some ment would give South Australia 115,000 cubic 'I',here below the Goulburn weir. where there is the feet a minute ?-Eventually. ;1verage noint,' but Victoria.could not take the whole .l 270: But they have agreed to take 70,000? flo\\'. This agreement referred not only to the Mur Until certain works are done, but when they are r,l \. itsel f. but to its tributaries. done they are to take the II5,oOO a minute. '1259. You sav that there will. be 33,000 cubic I271. I3]! Mr. Rees.--;From your reading of the feet a minute available on the boundary of South gaugings on the low year, does the river contain the ,A lIstralh. Doe;; that mean flowing at the boun amount of water mentioned for the various States? (htrv ?-No; 66,000 cubic feet a minute, of which -No; nothing like it. South Australia would be entitled to 33,000; th," 1272. By the ChairmaJ1.~The way they get this 0ther Statps would have to divide the rest betWf'Pn 60,000 million cubic feet per annum is for a low them. 1 think I elm explain what you want in this year. Your II5,ooO feet is the average of the other IV::]V : the volume, 66,000 cubic feet -a minute, is not two, or something belov,- that, and they are obliged ,,,hat it actually was, but what it would have been to give 7'0,000 feet during the low water months. in the absence of diversions. It is probably found that the per annum supply has 1260. If yOU sav that--if New South Wales been arrived at by averaging the others?-That is diverted 5.~.~00 cubic feet a. minute, and Victoria it. TO,OOO a minute, out of the total dischargl? in th;]t 1273. That comes out to about 120,000 c.f.m.? ven1'- then there would be onlv ::q,ooo cubic feet Yes. I think that 60,000 inillion must have re ~v~;I!1hle fr.r South All'tralia ?-Yps; that is th" ferred to the time when the upper river would be nosition. The 74,000 c.f.m. taken by Victoria and stored. N'ew South Wales would have been reduced by 1274. By 111T. Rees.-When it would·be locked? l()sses hefore it reached the boundary if it had been ;] Ilowed to flow on. . . -Would have reservoirs above, They must have had that in mind when they fixed on that. n6 r. Put it this wav: There was aV::lilable th;lt n~rticular vear .';':;,000' clJbic fpet for New South 1275. By tIll: Chairmall.-Why do you assumt; that ?-Because if it referred to the condition of W"les. and IO.OOO for Victoria ?-Ves: and :~~,ooo rubir fee>t would have been discharged at the border the river as it stanGs now, it would be an ab for South Australia. ;;nrdity, for \I'e have a large discharge going down now one day, and within a· few weeks probably very T262. Bv tIle r,llairmall.-Can you give us those nmort,?-Yes, J will hand them in; the whole little. thing: is rliscussed there. 1276. Clause 5I has obvious reference to the xe gulated rivers ?-I think so j it must assume that. , 126.\. That was the J90~ agreement-you said something about storage?-W e said this-that if 1277. What would you say about these divisions. 'lnY 'agreement at all be entered into, it should take First of all, the Zlpportionment and application of into account the construction of storages. and deal water under the pre-locking period?-That is the explicitlv with the stored water, especially in any period of the flow of the natural river. b~"ins on the rivers themselves, as complications. 1278. Take the low river period-how does that might easily arise in this connexion.' In the new work out? Have you made that calculation? agreen,pnt I notice they have a storage clause; the No; no definite calculation, but, looking at the 190~ Bill was not proceeded with. gaugings, the river goes so low that this agreement I 26 4. Have you considered the other :lgreement would mean that there would be nothing at all for . -1908 ?-T ~aw this agreement fo.r the fi'rst time anybody, prZlctically j the same as in 1903 . last night, and have had onlv an hour or two to 1279. That is the 1908 agreement ?-Yes; studv n .. it provides for locks and weirs, which will not store T 26.:;. Later on yOll might consider it ?--T will anything worth speaking of, and it I~aves the upper be happy to do that. • So far as my consideration reaches of the river just as badly off as before j so has gone, I think l understand the effect of it, that in a recurrence of a drought like that of 1902-3 which will be-again considering the low water this agreement would leave the Goulburn Valley months-to give Kew South Wales,' if the watel' as it is Ilow-I mean, no betfer off. AIJ the money is there, r:;8,000 feet a minute, Vlctona 92,000 that. would be spent on the locks and weirs would feet, and South Australia 70,000 feet, subject to h:1Ve no effect of providing a discharge for the I proportionate reLlm:tjons all round, i.f Ilk water Gou!bLlrn Valley, or for BungQwannlJ.h weir. John Montgomery COrule, ,nth July. 1909. 56 1280. By .~lr. Abliott.-Still, it would practically ablY. It IS absolufely certain that amount is not allow Victoria to use the whole of the water? in the river. Yes, Victoria and New South Wales; but it would 1293. By tlte Cltairman.-You say that, taking not be much use; it would be so little. • the whole river system, averaging it out, that 128I. By tlte Cltainnan.-l suppose from your amount is not in the river ?-No; not in a dry yea. argument you mean that for those Jow river periods In 1902-3 it was not. a. scheme of locking would be useless ?-r or the J294. By 11/r. Rees.--From your knowledge! cia upper States' practically, yes; for the lower State~ you think that amount of water was available for they would provide navigation water; no doubt of irrigation during last year ?-No; it was not. I that. They would 3:ssist irrigation to a slight extent should say not, though I have not seen the 'gaugings. by reducing the pumping lifts. 1295. Frequently it happens over a series of 1282. So the locking is entirely a South Aus vears that that amount of water is not avaUable? tralian .advantage ?-Practically so, apd a slight Yes; the gaugings show that. advantage, perhaps, to North-Western Victoria and r 296. Can you suggest any better means_ of dis South-Western New South Wales. tributing the water available, whatever it is, than 1283. By lvlr. Gray.-What is the slight advan, that which is cOlltained in the last section of clause tage?-Pastoralists would get the1r wool awa} 3I ?-Assumillg that th~ first figures-that is, the cheaper, and produce such as wheat might gu awav, 158,000, 92,000, and 70,000 feet are fair, I ';all if a large amount. was beIng grown. It would not suggest anything better than a pro rata reduc- 110t be any good for passenger traffic or for stock; tion. - these would not be taken bv boat. J 297. Do VOli consider that the' apportionment of 1284. By tlte. Cltair1l!an~--':'The only thing that 158,000 feet for New South Wales, 92,000 feet for would have any eff~t on it would be the very large Victoria, and 70,000 feet for South Australia is storage?-That is so. . fair?-No. 1285. In your opinion the scheme of this agree J298. By tlte Cltairmall.-Do you know the up ment is unsatisfactorv?-I think so. per Murray?~ Yes; I know it froID' end to end. 1286. That is, f;'om an Australian point of .1299. Have you considered the question of.appl view?-From the point of view of the greatest gooc1 ingthe waters of the Murrav as between Victoria for the greatest number, I think it is wrong. and New South Wales ?-I have read the evidence 1287. In stating the case, will you deal,fil'st of gil'en hefore the Royal Commission of 1902, and all, with the amount supplied in low years, and then I think that the proportions given there are fair with the locking?-The amount of water available' ilS between these t\W States, and as between the in ,low vears with unstored, unregulated rivers i" whole three States, so smal!' that irrigation would have to cease 1n the 1,300. Bv' 11fr. Rec.L,-If .that is the case, how upper .States practiplly; that is, if it shol!lcI be (10 yOll object to this ,other apoortionment ?-I think developed to any very great extent. For instance, 1. would prefer to consider the recommendations of in the 'summer of 19°3 there was Hot enough water 1902 of the ,Royal CommiSSIon, which /Zave 240,000 in the Goulburn for Rodnev, and if, the Eastern feet, T 27 ,000 feet, and 70,000 feet, as being fairer. Goulburn were added to it 'there would be an in~ I do not think it alters the .nropmtion as between sufficient supply for them. notwith:itanding the New South Wales and Vittoria Yen' much. . existence ',of the Waranga Basin, which does not JjOT. I suppose the idea was to ~1I01V for a fair command the E3stern Goulburn country and the ;>mount. in the river. so as to keep it flowing in south-eastern part of Rodney. A large expenditure South Australia ?-Yes. would ·be incurred for locks and weirs under this ,1302. Not for. navigation?-No; ,·,t)7,ooo feet at agreement, which would be very much cetter spent }lorgan is what is·. required~~,about 350,000 feet at in upper storages, that would have the effect of the border. . Tendering irrigation possible, permanently, yenr in 1303· The moment the rive'r falls to .337,000 and'vear out. feet at l'dorgan, navigation ccases?-That is so. 1288. "Vould the building of those stomges not r 304. By tlte C ltairman.-Shortlv, your view is interfere with navigation ?-I do not think so. 1£ thi,s. that the correct course. in the interests of the sto.rages were built, I consider that they should everybodY concerned, is, to start with storage first? be drawn upon for a reasonable amount of (()In ,-Yes. ' . , pensation water to the lower rivers, and, that the , J 3°5. And then the question of lccking cemes in discharge from them should be a regular thin)r, no ;Jfter\\'urds. if fundsc are availabl~, and the neces matter what the seaSOn \ras, so that the lower rive.rs sitv arises ?-Yesc: that is mv view" would be benefited by these discharges to such all 'r 306. Hn \:e ):ou rend the evidence given by extent that without locks and weirs thev would be :Mr. Elwood Meac1?-No_ . practically in as good a position as they are;n a ! 307. He seemed to take the same view as you state of nature. ,If there is to be an agreeme!lt, do ?-I am glad to be supported by him. and any expenditure. is contemplated under that, it J 308. Veiu are. in no way connected with the de seems reasonable that it should be on storages that' [)artment ?-No; T [lIn a private practitioner, anrl will regulate the rivers ;1t their heads, rather thnn I have acted fpr the department occasionally, as I on locks and weirs, which will not. would for ~ny private individual. 1289. It would not be fair to the dowll~rin~1' State, South Australia, that it should pay a lanY(; 1309. Your opinions are arrived at apart ffom ~nv departmental view?-Absolutelv. proportion of that storage ?-No; I do not think it , 'T31O, J understand YOU are interested, in irri"a would. I think the upper-river States should P:I Y for that. t;OI1 yourself ?-Yes; my partners and [ have been irrigating since r893 in the Goulburn Vnlley. 1290. By Mr. Rees.-Clause.31 provides for the' flow of 320,000 cubi,c feet per minute in the ~1ur T3II. Private lanel for yourselves?-Ves. our own rav?-At various parts. f;)l'm. It is near r,looroopna, between there and' 'I2QI. That is during the period, February to Toolamba. , June?-Yes. . . {.FC!' You feel YOU have h;d sufficient experi. 12Q2., I would like to ask-from your reading ense fo s;iv generally what the value of irrigation of. the gauges-is there that flow in the .river, ;lS :J is ?-I thilik. nroperly used, the value of irrigation matter '01' fact ?-Not in a V<:ry drv year; in a low is verv great, but !!ot ~p fll'eat as it is sometimes reo :dver \'c~·r it wp\.llr.l b'lye fo ttl redllced verycol1siqer. portc:d t~ ~i r .• '\' " " ,_, ! ., ,l • John Montgomery Coane, 57 6th July, ivOIJ. 1313. You haye seen some statements about the raising ?-J think so. I think that with proper immense population which could be carried in Rive management and . lucerne-growing, you could ((a rina and Goulburn Valley with irrigation ?-l tI1Qt, decidedly. think if you create a nation of market gardener::. 1330. Hy tile Cltairmall.-HaYe you read Sir without anyone tp eat the prodjJce, that the market Samuel McCaughey's evidence, gi\'en betorE~ ttlC gardens will not be worth very much. last Commission ?-N at fl)lIy. 1314. Surelv YOU do not limit it to that ?-I I 133 l. He indicated that there were immense pos you created a' gr~at number of very small ho~ders, sibilIties before lucerne and sorghum ?-Yes; and going in for intense culture, they would SOOn glut 1 think so, too. the markets. , 1332. You wi II admit that a proper use of irri- 1315. Surely there must be SOfi.e exporting? .gatlon over the ir.rigable areas of New South Wales Even that can be glutted. I venture to say that and Victoria would lead to an immense increase the apple market in England now is glutted. of national production?-Yes; if properly carried 1316. By 1I1r. Cray.-How much land have you out) but f would not advocate an immense num irrigated, and how much per acre has been pro ber of market gardeners, unless lOU can crea:e an duced on that ?-To say how much it p.roduces, one industrial or mll1ing popUlation t::> take their pro would have to hunt up balance-sheets. duce. 13T7. What will the lanel produce?-We ha\e J333. Haye you considered tbe relative import been irrigating about 12 [ acres of land, which has a 11 ance of storages on the Murray and on the UOlIl been under intense culture-fruit trees, vines, anc! bJrn?-Yes, 1 have. I consider that the storage of lucerne, and we ha\'e been exportillg apples tf) tile Goulburn, sO far as Victoria is concerned, 1 London since the trees began to bear, about twelve of a. good deal more import,ince than the storage " years, and we' have also been caulling and drying of the Murray j as far as New South Wales is COll fruit which we gre\v ourselves, and have bought from cerned, the storages of the I\'lurray and the J\ltJrrum others. That is my experience as an irrigator, and bidgee are the important ones. I would sav this: That if a man had an 1334· Your view is that Victoria should go ahead of £7 or £8 an acre profit alit of that sort with the GcuJburn storage ?-l have always held th ing, he would be doing very well indeed, after that view. paying all outlay; and then the place would have 1335. I understand YOll know something about to be worked verv carefully, and with a consider Trawool ?-Yes j ] propounded that scheme) which able amount of skill. was not en!n suggested as a by the Inter- 1:p8. You say the net profit would be about State Royal Commission in their 1 Rep::>rt. that ?-I would say that WGuid be the ou:side, :18 a 3336. Involving electric supply rule. J 337. You think it is an alternative between I,F9. By lJIr. Rces.-You say a man could make Tra wool and C,-unberoona ?-I would build both, £700 on 100 acres?-Yes; he might make that, .if 3338. Bf' 11/r. Rees.-Do YOU think that ahan the work was well dOlle, but a capital outlay of, dcnment of the Trawool scheme is justifiable ?~I say, £5,000 would be necessary. (10 not, in view of the requirements of the East 1320. By tlte Cltairmall.-Aild some others, with Goulbufll area and of part. of Rodney, and of the .30 or 40 acres. might get better results ?- la rge amount of electric current that .could be gene Yes. I should like to qualifv my previous state rated to the gfeat ndvantage of the manufacturing ment by saying that that will ohtain only' so long and mining industries, with freedom fro:n inter as there are not Vel'\' many at the same 'business; ference from strikes. you can easily overdo it. If you. go and create a 1339. Is the statement that there are no foun great many gardens of the same sort, you will reduce dations there true ?-I would like to explain th~lt the profits to nil. I did not bore the foundations or pit them, so. I 1321. Where is your produce marketed?-In cannot speak from actual knowledge as to what Australia principally, 'and in England, and a little there are there; but I have been ii1formed that there in Germany. if> a depth of :1bOlit 90 feet for a short distance near I:P2. The English market is surely an unlimited the bed of the river, and that the rest of 1he fO'Jnda one for Australia ?-Oh, no. Apple·, fro:n Aus tion is not \-crv deep at qll, up to about 50 to 60 tralasia are quite commonly sold in Engbnd at 7S. feet, but that I do not know of my own knowledge. and 8s. a case, and splendid cnes are often retailed There is no doubt that information can be got from in ~Melbourne 'at Jd. -per lb. the en'gineers who have heen dealin!J: with the shafts 1.123. By Mr. H oldm.-Is that £7 or £8 profit and bores. dealing with land in fruit. How much of it is J 340. From what you have read. afteT the last under lucerne ?-Onlv about 7 or 8 acres. imestig:1tion, you think that the Trawool scheme 1324. By tlu C/uiirman.-Apart from the pro· j, I'til1 feasible and practicable ?-l certain!'y do.' duce,you might meet an over-stocked market. There I do not think that a depth of 90 feet for a few are other products?-Yes, of course. chains would be prohibitive, under the circum 1325. Have YOU experience of other things ?-Not stances. under irrigated culture, excepting hay crops ami r 341. What wO'Jld be the effect upon the Goul tomatoes. burn floods, S'.lch as we haye just had, of the large 1,,26. Your apprehension about overdoing refNs storaIJe :1t Trawool-would. it modify the present to the orchardist ?-Yes, and what is known as t"'e inundation ?-I consider that a reservoir of the intense culture system, as, for instance, tomato capacitv I r>roposed would have practically pre growing. vented the flnod that hal' JURe taken pl<1ce in the 1327, By lJfr. Abbott.-Of what you are produc· Goulburn. That is. that the water. instead of ing, what items can you export to England 7- . flowing- dOlm the ri\~f:r to do damage: would have Apples and pears ,: and we have that' there would be no inconYenience, as far as 1354. That means you would divide the water the Goulburn was concerned.' nnd give people smaller areas ?-,-No; I do not 1343· By illT. Abbott.-I noticed that, notwith mean that. stailr:iing this enormous floo(] th:1t ha.s been' going 1355· If a man had 500 acres of lanel, bow down the 'Goulblln~! the Vvaral1!Ia Bas:n is not full ? would yOll irrigate?__ It is an open question which ~lt cannot be filled in a hurrv; \'OU can onlY is the best wav. I am aware that Mr. Mead is divert TOO,OOO cubic feet a min~te {nto Waranga', ngainst my view in this, but still I venture to put whatever the flood; as that is a Question of the it. Let liS nSSllme for illustration that we hai,;e a inlet channel the amount is I imited, as you cannot million acres of Inncl whicb' can be commanded by get more water into- a bottle than will go through \rater, and th<1t there is only enough for 300,000 its neck; s6 st()rages like that are v,ery little use Clues fully irrigated ,: so, if this is done, 700,000 for the j'egullticiil of the river. though they are very acres are left permanently without water. The useful with i'eservoirs upstream. owners of this 7°°.000 acres. during a drOlight, , 1344. Bv AIr, Rccs,-Yo\l dl) riot think there is would be just as badly off as if there was no irriga tion in the COllntrv at all, I take it, beca.use those ::.nother such stobige in Victori~ ;JS the Trawool? I cannot find that there is another such storage in neople who \i'ere 'working the 300,000 acres fully the world. irrig,1ted would be stocked up, and when the pinch came they would not be able to get rid of their o\\';n j 345. Gray.-Have VOll read about the By' Mr. stock, and would not have any surplus fodeler for f!reat dam'they are projecting in 'Mexico. 178 feet the 1lse of those who had the. 700,000 acres. I con deeD, coVering 35,000 acres of land ?-Yes. The ~;icJer the (]uestion at least arguable. volume, ;lS bi· ~s I tihc1ersbnd, in that dam is no gre~ter thah iil Tra\vool, arid they have a higher 1.156. By 111r. Abbott.-:From your kl10wledge wall. of'irrigation in the Murray, and a thoroughkno\Y- 0 ledge of the Sllhlll'iJan Wate; Act, do YOll consider 1~46. By iJ.fr, ,4,bbott.-How about the storage tile taxation under that 13;1 I is going to be oppres rt Cumberonlla. Is not that ne:irlv;l~ greClt ;lS Tw\\'dol ?-Tt is' ;lbout one-third the cal;acity' of sive on the land-owner. J mean the present Water Tra\vo'ol. .Act ?-I do not eX;1cth· know what the taxation will be. It depends the val ue of the land, not 1,147. Bv the Clutirmal1.-1 understood you to on (1,1 the water--one-fifth of the rental vahle; on SCIi' tHat there is no other storage possible-for in S'Illle it would be oppressive, and on others. not. stance, at Tabilk ?-No extensive storage; I am The man with land valued hi!!h may have to pav sure of that. a large Slim. The water, to him, may not be as 1.148. What could be watered from thp. valuable as to the man whose land is v:llued at half ~torage at Tabilk could not say, but I should the rate, and who lIses just as much. be very much surprised if you could water 50,000 ,1,\57. Of \"hat value lier acre is water to a mall, acres. le~ving out 'fruit ?-I think, if he lIses it very skil 1349. Would you be surprised if it was said fully, ~it ought to be worth TOS. an acre to him. you could water over 200,000 acre feet; that would 1358. To gee,that lOS. ollt, would there l1ave be ]00,000 acres ?-Yes; I would be very much to ce an enormous increase in the number of people surprised, unless vou flooded o,ut the town of Sey employe'd over the Goulb'urn Vallev ?-No; I do mO~lr, a ncl I cia' not know then where the water 'not think.s!). With good: horses and good machines would go to. it does 110t take ~'ery many men to deal with 1350. You have not taken the levels ?-No; but It~cerne. I have taken them at Tbmool. 1359. By 17fr. ·Gray.~What, k~ncl of machin~s 1351. By Mr. Abbott.-It has been 'st:lted there do you refer to ?-Harvestingmachinery and scan that, supposing that reservoir was constructed, thde fiers. . 1 mean vou cnnnot do it by hand; you wollid no~ be enough water to fill it?-That is must 'haveim!)len;ent and horsf::s. wrong. I have prepared, a diagram showing the r .,60. 1 noticed-for the purpose of encouragi,ng yield and propoSed discharge of the river for 2I people to rro on small areas-it was. state~ 'that years, which shows that a storage of about 70,000 one man with 40 acres of land obtamed only a nii Ilioll cubic feet' wils warrnllted by the flgures ex miserable pittance of . T 7 4~that does not seem tending over those rears, which included the drought to be your experience ; that must have been of 1902-3. The vield of the river was calculated scmeth'ing very exceptional. from the official gaugirigs. T 361. Bv .iYlr. Abbott. -The'), tal k ill Bendigo r{:;z. By .Mr. Grap.-In connexion with' the of getting £350 worth off one acre ?-I know earn'ins o.f wate>r lohg distances from the different those places; that is from tomatoes. I would, storrrges. whilt do YOU estimate the losses, say, on 'rather believe it than investigate it and' prove its pb ins like :Mitiarno, what is the loss of \\'ater ?- :1ccuracv or iilcorrectness. I think it is rather far That is a \'erV hard thing to determine. Ishould fetched:' There is one thing about that point 58 v one would have to provide for a .Ioss of .')0 that, although oi'le or two mel) ill Bendigo, with an per cent. for H'ry long distances, but it is 3 matter acre of tonhtoes might do very \vell, if they, thilt c:l1) cllil;, be determined by gauging; the class grew 50 acres of tomatoes there'they would not do of ground passed through, the shape of the channel \yell, unless they could find fresh mar~ets. ;In(\ its fnll rlnd length must all be considered. 1362. By iJir, Gray.-Would the a"e;ilge rain 1353. Is it wise to tnke water from storages 40 fall in a district influence yon in saying' whether :lhd ~o In~les where there is lanel immediately ad irrigation areas ought to be fixed, say, with a rain jacent. equrrlh: suitnble for irrigadqn ?-That 'Opens fall of :15 inches, or l1l()re, would it be advisable up the 'lue'stion of tbe best use of the water for :'1 the interests .of the population of the State the 'whole of the people fnr :mv particular aren. h,"neral1y to send the \\'ater to places \\~th onlv I think tinder f:erta in cond itions it woul d be wise' 10 or !2 inches of rainfall ?-SpeakiI1g generally, I , to do it, because people,living /10 or 50 miles from would send it where there was the least rainfall. the storages, in the event of n, drought like 1902-3, YOll ~vill' get better irrig~tion results, because the would probably-lose all their stock; whereas, if they people ;ll'e f mced to lise it. }\J)' experience is that had a portion of their holdings irrigated,. they might drought yenrs rire ;dways the ye;lfs when lucerne ~a.Ye th:lt stock does be,t, and t~le drier you hal'e the climate; and ;r ohn Montgomer;' Ooane, . 59 6tll ;rilly. 1909. the hotter the sun-provided you have water when The l'1'Iurrumbidgee is nearly as good a stream as you want it-the more effect you get from the irri . the M urra y, and that is all New South Wales water. gation. 1376. Do you think our river gaugings are ac I363. By tIle Cltairmall.-I understand you curate ?-I think for low rivers they are very fair. have had some experience in pumping?-Yes. I should trust them for moderate discharges, but I364. Can you tell us to what extent pumping when it comes to heavy floods I should not. can be carried on-further on the Murray, down I377. :Mr. Checchi said in his examination: river, I mean ?-For fairly low fifts, such as up The gallgings at Echnca were taken in 1888 or 18871 and though both from time to time may have modified the to 20 feet,as long as the fuel supply keeps, up. table, still the original gangings were taken twenty years I think it will pay to pump for lucerne on suitable ago, and tlie river has changed in the meanwhile, accord· land, and, of cour~e, for other marketable pro- ing to my last measurements. ducts. - . ?-·Yes. 1365. By Ilh. Gray.-Sultanas, currants, and so J378. Gauf,rings taken 20 years ago, and they on ?-Yes. are stili holdil1g good-is that correct ?-'rhc prac T 366. By tlte C ltairmall,-You saW something tice is to take sections of the river at intervals and nbout the fuel ?-I consider that the fuel supply to make allowance for the changes in the section in connexioll with. these pumping stations on the that have taken place. Mr. Checchi speaks of his i\-[urra v needs to be considered, and th;1t it will I :lst measurements. be a ;:lifilcultv in a few vears' time th8t will be J 3 79· Where does that prctdice obtain ?-Here. very considerable, and if 'those projects which de: I380. Every 20 years ?-1 thought 'of it at pend on Dumping are intended to be permanent shorter stages -; th:1t is teo long. there ought to be reafforestation, because if vou T 38 r. Then you only have 'gaugings taken at in have to rail c0;11 from Melbourne it is a very dear tervals of 20 years ?-No; if that was the only fuel. The Mildura people have had a difficulty gauging, T would not trust it; but I know they are ahout their fuel already, and are bringing it a more frequent. long way, -1382. By the Cltairman.-I understand there is I :~67. By llf r. Grap.-In yom opinion, is it ad pr:1ctical1y a rough and ready survev every time visable to establish irrigation in land having a there are gaugings taken ?-That is so. rainfall of over 20 inches.?-Y'"es. I would·sav 1383. The smveyor finds out if there has been anV it is, The people near Hobart, on the Derwent, to substantial :1lteration in the ,configuration of the bed my knowledge, find it very advantageous to irri of the river, so that unless something very extra gate, and the rainfall there is considerabl}; over ordin:ny liappens, such as :1. break away, or a wash 20 inches; it cj.epends on the distribution of the a\\'av, or a big scouring, he would get it every time? fall. -I think so. Thev take the velocities at intervals J 368. I think they are forming an irrigation across the river. . trust at Bairnsdale ?-It is. pretty dry there occa 1384. By !lfr. Gray.-Do I understahd that vou sionally. consider that locking would be a waste of money? J369. By 1/1r. Rees.-And the Werribee?-The I do not go that length, but I say the locking should Werribee jg very dry. ~ome after storage at the heads of the rivers, and 1370. What 'about Cohram and Yarraw'onga not before it. what is the rainfall ?-About 20 inches. I385· For what purpose would yot! lock the ri\'er 137T. By !lfr. Rees,-You s:lid you preferred then ?-So that, if necessnry, more water might be the old allotment of water bv the Water Com set free for irrig:1tion without interfering with navi l11igsioners as against the more recent I908 allot gation. ment?-Yes. 1386. Bv tile Clwirmol1.-YOll would set it free T372. A further allotment of 240,000 c'ubic feet from the locks ?-And from above. a minute for New South Wales, and 127,000 cubic J387· You mean they might utili7.e wMer that feet for Victorin; and then in the J 908 allotment. would be left free-that a, smaller supply of water 158,000 feet for New South Wales, nnd 92,000 would go further down below ?-Yes; when the feet for Victoria. The latter gives Victoria the ri IeI' is locked and weired. brger proportion?-Yes. ; J 388, Not for the purpose of navigation? Yes. I do not think vou would lock the whole 1\7 3· Is Victoria entitled to a larger proportion of the river for an" otl1er purpose. of the flow than New South Wales-vou said YOU r 389, One witness thought it might be necessary preferred the old allotment ?-From the Victorian to lock in one or two places ?-In the case of the point of view-a selfiSh ,point of view-the latter Cohuna Trust, or Tooleybuc, I think the \york :1l1otl11ent is a little better. But on the whole I \l'oulcJ.sen·e two pUfPoses. The weir would bar do not think the latter allotment would be better, n:,vigatiol1 nltogether unless there was a lock, You because in the 1908 allotment South Australia takes could have :1 mov::Ible weir, but that would not do a good deal more. very wdl for low dyer. 1374. I,eaving out South Australi.a-taking the ;390. By Mr. Recs.-YOll could not navigate allotment between New South Wales and ViCtoria \yjth the low rivers ?-?\o; the weir at Cohuna -Victoria has there a larger allotment under the would be for the PUfDOses of dil'ersion. latter?-;-The 1902 nllotment W:1S made after very 1391. By Mr.-.A.bbott.--As to the agreemellt careful considewtion bv the representati yes of all the which provided a definite allocation of \\'ater--'--it States---the T 902 Commission, at which I gave h::IS been suggested that no definite allocation to e\'idence-though not on that particular point, but the three States should be made, but that a propor I have read the el'idence and the report, and I think tionate ;Ill1ount of the ;1\'::lilable water each Veal' it would be a fair thing to accent that ~s a reason should be ::dlocated ?-T think so. Th:lt is what I able proposition for the distribution. intended to convey before~--·that the propE:r volume 137')· Do vou sa\' that New South Wales clis of compensation water should be arrived at, and t-h~n~~s so milch more water into the ~{urray, and tll:lt it shmild be sent down. is entitleci to 240,000 feet as ~gainst Victoria's 1392. In that wa\" it has been suggested here 120,000 feet?-Yes: I think so. The IVrurrum. tha t the mnount of water should be divided into bidgee is a relativelv big river. A good many fifths, of which t\\"0-Jifths would he allotted to people. in rending these reports, do not know that Victoria, one-fifth to South Australia, and t\\'Q they refer to both th~ Murray and its tributaries. fifths to ?\ew South Wales ?~~Th;It would be against :rOM Montgomery eoane, 6th July. 1909. 60 the views of the prc':ious Cominissiori who reported de',elo? its natt:ml resources of W:lter supply. on it, having regard to the yield of the river. I v;lder the agreement, it is a sort of levelling down. scarcelv think that it would be hir. \V(~ want to have a free hand if \\:e are to store 1393, This is practically having regard to what ;: II the water \\'e can. if \\i'e think it is t'o alII' ad you might call the :lVaibble contribution. of tl;e vantage to do so, ,ll;d llot be boun(l down to use States from an irrigation point of view, and it i~ Olll\' a certain Quantit\' of watt'L assumed that :lIthough New South Wales contri· , J·409· That a;Tangement is to assist the calcu\:l butes a larger quantity of water, that that wilter is tiOI1S of New South WaJes and Victoria 1'-It is net not available for irrigation ?-They have excluded necessary to adjust anything, and all we have to the rivers that are not available, without storage; for provide is what amount each State should s~nd dO\YI1 irrigation, from the calcubtion altogether. in compensation, according to what we contrjbt:~e, The zl'itucss 1dtltdrew. 1410. Assumiilg this 7°,,000 feet is the amount to be given in low water months to South Australia. John Gardiner Starr, s\vornand examined. that should be contributed bv the two States up the river?-Yesj in proportion to their contributions to 1394. By the CltairmalZ.-What are ;ou ?--A the river. and then \:vhv should we not have a free 'ciYil engineer. hand with the balance? • 1395. H~)\\f long have you been in practice? r 411. Would not you have an understanding Le About 30 years-a litle O\'er. t\\'een New South Wales and Victoria as to what 1396. YOll are practising privateh ?-Yes. proportions the\' s,hould take ?--':No j what p1'.Opor 1397. Have you any COllnexion with the Govern tions we have to send down the river. ment ?-No j not no\\'. -1 frequently do little reports' 1412. Suppose you ha\'e no agreement, Vict.oria for the Water Supply Depeartment. ma.v be taking more than New South Dales tlunks 1398. You have had some experience in connexion fair ?-That is provided for by the gaugings; the with water supply engineering ?-Yes. quantity we contribute to the river is ascertained 1399· For how many years ?-About 25 years by the gaugings. 1'h3.t is the duty of the. Como. altogether. About 20 years 'ago, we began the mission n ppointed for the purpose, and ·should we irrigation works. I \\'as appointed engineer to the have to. send il certain quantity down the river, first Irrigation Trust formed in this country-the \\'e can do what we like with the balance. Tragowel 1'1ain5. . 1.413. Co~ing to clause 51-.wh:a about that? 1400. The first question I \"}ropose to ask you is That quantity of water that IS proposed to be about this proposed agreement of 1908. Have) ou deliverecl at the boundarv of South Allstrt\lia, or its read it?-Yes. FaIlle at lOS. an· acre for irrigation, is £7,5°0,000. 140r. You al'e familiar with irrigation cO;ldi. 1414:' That is taking an acre foot. ane! charging tions?-Yes. so much ?"-Say we val lied the 2"acre foot at lOS. all 1402. And you have an engineer's knowledge of acre. locking the rivers ?-Yes; while I have not actually J 415. How do YOll ai'rive at that 1:7 .'i0.o,()oo? ever built a lock, I know how they are built, and -60,000 millions of cubic feet would lfngate that works have to be adapted to the nalmal fea· 600,000 acres, 2 [(.--et deep; then, if you reckon that tures. ' at ros. per acre' per ;mnum, and capitalize it at 1403. The first thing I want to ask your opinion 4- per cent., YOU have about 7~ millions as the capi on is how clauses 30, 31, and 51 of this agreement tal va hle of the water. if applied to, the lanci higher of 1908 will work in practice ?~-I would not go so up ,: that is not making any allowal1ce for loss. YOll far as.to say,that they are unworkable,but I think would ha ,'e to add at least one-third more to the they are not drawn iil the best way in which such 60;000 to compensate for ·loss in conveyance down clauses could be drawn. The tendency of the the river. scheme is to retard progress. The, quantity we are T 416. It is 60,000 allowed in'c1ause 5'1 ?-Yes, entitled to divert Or use should not be a fixed quan 1417. Have you anything further to say about tity. I refer to the' upper States. The quantity clause 51 ?-In addition to that, YOU would have to that should be sent down the river as compensation provide one"third for loss in the bed of the ri,'er water, I think, should be fixed as nearly as posrible. from e\'aporation, To give you an idea, I may It might be made to vary slightl y to suit the V[l[;.ous sa Ii' that the loss in a low year is 28,7 per cent. of seasons, but very little, Then, ,i f that is the fixed the total intake, and 'amounts to 128,000 million quantity, we, the upper States, should have a. free cubic feet between Albun' and Morgan. hand to do what we think fit with the re,t of the 14 T 8, Where did you "get that?-In this reporr. water that we contribute to the :Murrav, in propor- All those figures are authoritative, and we h3re to tion to the quantity we contribqte. . assume that -they arc right. 14°4.. Does not this agreement pretty well carr\' T4[Q· You h~ve told us what \-OU would SUjIgest that out ?-No; it says that lYe mav divert during as a fair scheme of division-no fixed amount ex certain months of the year a certain quantib' of (ept for Soutli Austra ria ?-Yes. water, and the same fo; New South Wales, and a J420. What is your view about the nlue of this certain quantity to be sent down to South Australia. locking, proposal to the three States altogether; I do not think that is the way it should be done~ The anS\\'er to that depends on two others. viz,. 1405. We are orily concerned with the low water the cost of the locks. and whether there will be' supply ?-Yes j the low years. a greater Or a less I~ss of water from the rivers. 1406. The agreement provides that when, during The Inter-State Commiss10n of 1002 estimated th," those low water months, the volume is greater than cost of locking the '!ldurray and ':Murrumbidgee at would be required to give the amount allotted to £I,6'i1,7,~0. 1 think the estimated cost should be New South Wales and Victoria, and is sufficient to not It:s:;; than £2,300.000. give the fixed amount which you agree should bp. T 42 T. You a~ree with 'Mr. Garson, who !l';)ve fixed for South Austra lia, the others ma v take all pvidence here, that the" were lIllder,estimated?-; the surplus?-Yes. . Yes. ' 1407. But r understood VOll to say that there 1422. As :1 matter of fact, ihose estim:ltes \I'ere should .be no fixed nmo'mt n.s between New South suh~eqUf··ntlv increased, "t a bter 'stage ?-'Were Wales and Victoria?-That is so. t11ev? Well, m" estimate is made without accur:)l~ I408. What are your reasons for that ?-~ 13 ecn use knowledge of the nature of the foundations, nnel T it wo~t1d 00 a dil:ect incGllti\'e to cache, State to see I have a note here that tIle fOllndat;ons shoulrl ( John Garlliner starr, , 61 60h July, 1909. j ha I'e been tested by boring or pittillg, or both; That is, the decrease gradual! y lessened with the and also a cross-section of the river taken at each length of time it stood 111 the channel. That is the hxk site. most forcible example I know of as to the differ 1423. By Air. Rces.-Your estimate is only a ence in loss between running and still water. guess ?-Not exactly a guess; I have assumed a 1429. By tl/.(: Cltairman.--You produce that to certain foundation. The point may arise whether show that, haying the water stationary may mean , the foundation migbt have to go deeper, cr whether saving ?-Yes; exactly. That is the inference to be you might not have to go so deep; but there can be drawn from this. But I am not satisfied with it. nothing rea 11 y s<1tisfactory .without the testing of the ) 430. By lib. lIoldel1.-Were the circumstances foundation by boring and pitting, and also a cross the same in both cases. The ground may have been section of the river. tilled by the runI'\ing water first?-Yes. 1424. Could you guess within £5°,000 of the 1431. By tlte Chairman.-You think that cost ofa lock and weir on the r,-[lIrra\' ?--Oh, ves. stationary water does not waste so soon as running If the foundation is so I'erv b~ld as that it will have water ?~-Thit is the indication. to be piled-drive piles below, and build on that. 1432. Did you take part in this experiment? 1425. By tlte CIJairman.-Assuming that your No; it was made by the Water Supply Department. e~timate is correct, what would the vallie of the 1433. By lIlr. Holden.-Have you made any locking be to the States ?-It depends upon whether other experiments ?-No; not in that way. I have the loss of water \rould be greater or less ?-I think noticed frequently that newly excavated tanks lose it would be less after the river is locked than it is \Yater rery rapidly, and when, they stand awhile now in its natural state. I will give you my reason they fd] up; that is because they form a film. for thinking that. The highest flood th;lt occurred I434. You me:ll1 with still water, if you locked in ,'ile j\,rurray, in 1896, \Ias 757,600 cubic feet a it, it would plug more effectively and reduce the minute; that is about 18 feet on the gallg~ at loss ?-Tha.t is what it indicates. Eehuca; t,h;]t was the highest flood in 1896. That 1435. By tlie .Cltairm 146S. :But yOt! do J10t pledge ),ol1l'self to :1I1y irrigating ;:dong river frontqges; no doubt) this exact, amount ?---That is !;imply the evic\enc,e that wOlllcl be SOQ1e coq1pensation to the upper States has been collected. ?vf y figures, assilming that for the sncrifice they will make almost entirely in that will occur, show what the result lI·iH the interests' of SOlltb }\ustralia, if they· agre~ to be. Personally, do not think it will lock the river. According to the report of the anything like that, judging from my own person:ll .! 1*,r·State Commission.of I902, the annual require experience; but there is that actual experiment in ments of South 'Australia for irrigation amount to ~)lack n:ld white of \Vb:l! did occur, nnd my opinioil 12,.100 million clIbic feet; deducting this from the IS nothmg against tll:1t; yon C;lI1not disregard that capac!t)' of Lqke Victoria, leaves a surplus of evidence. 1 show \Vh:1! the result would' be from 9,899 million cubic feet, to which the lockings and that, and suggest that further investigation should Iraste frorn the weirs SllOUld be added, making a he D1:1ck: to determine it. ~, . total of, sal', q,ooo million cubic feet. The 1409. By NT. Rces.-·-Do YOU think a tithe of el'aporatiol1 fro[l1 the river between the last lock at th:1t loss of 3 I feet was, due to evapo~'ation~wh:1t Hlal1chtown and Lake Alexanclrina is abollt 2,700 proportion is due to evaporation ?-Five feet. mil I ion cubic feet per annuIIl. Deducting this from 1470. Therefore, tllere would be 26 fect of loss 1 1,000 million cubic feet, leq,ves a balance of 8,Joc by seepage iii that channel ?-Yes. million cubic feet to rnake good loss by soakage 14i.1. Would you consider there would be as ami el-aporation from Lake Victoria. We come much loss by seepage in the channel of a river which _ now to the Jakes, Omitting the COprong, the area has been running for yenrs, and is well silted ep, of the lakes at the Murray mouth is 192,000 acres. as in an ordipaiy rrrjgation channel ip ]Vfildura? The annuaf evaporation from these lakes amounts You may expect more, bec:1use the river is full of to 42,000 mill ion cubic feet, the capital value of holes, and ragged in .the sides, anel the water is which, if used for irrigaion, is £5,500,000. Re retarded in variollS W;1Y5,' and set in motion by garding the supply of water to make good loss bv swirls and logs in the river. evaporation in the lakes, seeing tll :lppk tr> the loss from' rtIllning water \yould also f;'Olll the l:jver might for :t, few weeks, it nlay h11\'o gone down to one That is' the onlv delinite information we have on 'eighth of an inch in a day. I believe that would the matter. I do not believe that for a moment j be found nearer the mark, but there is no proof ,; but that is all we have to go on. but 1 think there is an easy mean:; within your r 514. Would you say the river would fall 5 feet reach of deciding that. There is a weir in the by evaporation ?-Not during that time. The esti Gunbower at Cohuna. If you request the mated evaporation is 5 feet per annum. Cki rman of the Water Commission to instruct his 1515. There is very little evaporation during the <)fficers to take observations of the loss of water ""inter ?-If there is a strong wind it takes off the at that weir,'\l1 summer when the creek is not water more than the sun-a reservoir situated where flowing, you will soon get information as to the the winds play on it evaporates much more rapidly toss of water, ill 5imilar country, in the Murray. than 'one where the wind does not play an it. Tha,t would cost nothing; and other cases might 1516. What would you say as to the drop in the be met with lower down where observations might river between January and June ?-I cannot give be taken. you anything defLnite. I have 'observed that an the .1503. By Mr. Abbott.-How do you propose to Kow Swamp the water has gone down a little over get over the difficulty of the absolute shortage of one-eighth of an inch pcr day during the two or water in the Murray, without the storages in the three months in the summer. .some days it would lIpper water of the Murray?-I do not quite follow go down quicker than others; but there it is not you. absolutely certain, because on a large sheet of water I504. By the Cltairman.-l think all the witnesses like that, some 6,000 acres, if the wind is blowing agree that it would be quite improper to store the strong the water is 6 inches or 9 inches higher Murray at Cumberoona to feed South Australiari on one side than the other, so it i's impossible to requirements ?-Yes. anything definite. 1505. By fl!lr. Abboti.-But without storage of 1517. You can only say that during the five that character, there would not be water to keep months of the summer period it would only fall the locks full, o.r to operate them in the summer 18 inches ?--Icould not give that definitely. time ?-That might be. IS 18. You say that still water will fall 5 feet I~06. By tile Cllairman.-Thev could Use Lake during the twelve months ?-Yes, plus the rainfall. Victoria for that purpose • in South Aus- 1519. If it only loses an inch per week, you only tralia. lose 18 inches during the summer months, which we 15°7. By illr. Abbott.-Before coming to Lake know is wrong. Will a tank go down more than Victoria-it has been alleged that if alI our pump that? ing schemes had been in operation this year, our 1520. Yes. Jt depends upon the ground. If pumps ,,,"ould have been lifting gravel j there was it is good holding ground, I question if it will. not enough water to supply' them ?-I cannot say A tank is below the surface and the wind cannot as to that. It seems to me rather an extreme state-. sweep the surface. ment. . We arc speaking of the river that is full? river is not full where the locks are built I 508. You ha ve grown I ucerne there?-Yes. 1509. Can you, from'your experience, say whether some of the locks art; only 5 feet high. 1522. this charge of lOS. an acre proposed to be made on How can a lock be only 5 feet high, when hnd, is one that the irrigators will be able to stand you must have 5 feet to navigate ?-The lock will for all the area they have got ?-FOI all the area be put on the highest points to save the height of they irrigate; they could not pay lOS. an acre for the lock. all the land they have. . 1523. The water on the lower side of the lock [STO. According to the financial requirements, it must be 5 feet to give navigaticm; then there must would appear that one-fourth of the area a man has a lift of feet again on the other side of the gut in certain areas of the Goulburn Vallev' must lock ?-There a longitudinal section of the Murray be irrigated to bring about a financial re~ult? given in that report, which' shows the height of all I think more than one-fourth of a man's holdings the locks? should be irrigatea. About six or seven years ago J 524. By Mr. understand you do not 1 wrote a series of articles for the Age on matter~ recommend the storage at Cumberoona ?~~Not for of that sort; and pointed out that, in order to the purpose of running wa~er down the river; but make irrigation a success, Government should re the storage will have to be built at Cumberoona. sume land and cut it into farms of about 50 acres, I am in favour of builuingstorages wherever pos and construct channels, and sell the land with a sible. definite water right attached to' that land. My opinion 1525, At Lake Victoria?--L:1ke Victoria should was that a man should irrigate half his holding be used now .. and, if he grew fodde.r crops on. Z 5 acres, and feJI J 526. How much water would be impounded in the stock OIl the other 25 acres, he could mak~ ,:1 the lo~ks?- T did not take that out. I do not think good living for himself and his family on 50 acre~ it i" a matter of much consequence. Once they are of land. I am very glad to see that that view is built they will always be full, so it hardlv bears being taken now. . upon the question. 1t is the loss of water hy eva I5II. By Afr. Rees.-You have gone into the po.ration and soakage that we are concerned ahmt. surface area of the river between the South Aus. 15 2 7. By frlr. tlbbott.-A" to that loss of 26 tralian border and Echuca, whcre it is locked? per cent. ~n conveying water fro.m -:\lbury to Echuca, Yes j I have not depended upon my own figures for a proportlOnate loss must oblall1 111 connexion with that. I have taken them from Mr. Wade and Mr. the conveyance cf any ",'ater in a channel such M.oncricff. . as the W aranga channel ?--I do not know. 'What 1512. What is the surface area ?-I,I42 millIOn .I have given you is the difference in the quantity square feet. of. \:'ater gauged at Albury, Wangaratta, and Mur 151 3. During the summer months at the low - . ehman, and at Echuca in 1896' the year chosen river point~ January to June-how much would vou is a typical low year. ) say would be the less by evaporation and seep;ge. 15 28 .. B y Mr. there was 26 per cent. How much wo~ld that s:1rface be reduced, supposing lost. between Cumbe.roona and Albury, what pro l~O mater came mto the nver at all during the period? portlOn would be lost between A,lbury and :Morgan? -I do J10~ know. I can only go by that experi -"Ve do not know j but we know the loss is I28 000 ment at rvlJluura. That would be an inch l,er day. million eU.hie feet fO!' the whole year frQm Ech~ca. I 6994 ljl I gave my reasons for .issiJhling there was little ~I,895 ;1908, 39,137. 'T'he small quantity carrIed. or no loss from overflQw in r896, because the river .lI11902 was owing to the low river consequent on never rose to highe.r than 18 feet on the the clrv season. Ec1WC;1, that not [or long, n.nd only to 11 154Q. \Vhat is the avel'flge carried ?- at Mildura; so the river could ·not have About 40,000 bales. its banks; yet, there was that ellormous loss. ~ 54 r. Iq what nlOnths is wool r.529. What' is that percentage ?-z8.7 per cent. Generally from the There are other streams coming in lower down, end of December. Shearing .the.re is'the M}lrrllmhidgee and Darling, and Cam- of October. 1n. ] 542. How f:n is the wool carried ?-A great kjnd of rivers were they in 1896; pellt of it has to mille 600 to 800 miles. ~L'n'u", run at all in r896 ?-Yes; the 'dis~ What about wheat ?--The wheat trflde all charge the Murrumbidgee was 66,000 million upon the season, vVe have carried as uubic ft-et in 1906-[page II of tlle Commissi01lcr'.s m:dl as 30,000 b:lgs in a. season. t reportJ~the Dar-ling ran thro\lgh the whole of J 896 1544. Where do you trade ?-PrincipaJ1y down at Wilcannia. . from Vlnkool and the MIIlTUmbiclge:e. 153I. By Mr. Abbott.-Do you know anything I545, Is the wheat trade growillg?-Yes. about Tra wool 0.1' the proposed storage 011 the 1546. Has the opening Gf" the 1\:1.i1dura rnih\'ay Goulburn know nothing speci;tlly about it, the trade to Echuca ?-It hfls not affected 1$32. Supposing Victoria contemphltes the ex· the \\'heat tI::lcle. It bas 'lffecced genera) cnrgo ::!nd penrjiture, in cQnjunction with South Australi~l ::lIld and we had to cut em- r:lte~ in New Sottth to obtain water for ii'rigation, Considered' s(::par;]tely, I slIppose would the stornge the Goulburn be of more v:due illfinitesirnal ?-Yes. to us th;1n the on the upper Murray?-Yes; What til11ber is car.ried ?-\Ve cnrry if JTlY ic'ea of doing what it likes with l\,[urnlIpbidgee and Darling, 1t is used for its own wate.r" the compensation water is sent l\QWn 'nver, is out, it would be abso· r 549. Is this red gum ?-Yes. hjtely Qur, own, whereas the storage on the lvfmray J 550, you tell us what proportion ()f the would pe the joint woi'k between u~ and New South river trnde Victorian ::Ind \\l1nt is South Aust.ra- \Vales._. lian ?-About two-thirds Victo.ri,an ;ll1d olle,third fS33, By Mr. wOllld be at the joint South Austqli<\I1. cost, and each be entitled to their share of 1551. New South Wnles is not i\1 i~ ?-NQ. the wilter, accQrding to what each p::!id. If each J552. What proportjon of the Darling trnd(c pi\\d hi\lf, tqey wonld eaoh he el1titled to h,l1£ the comes' to Ec1mca ?-Of the wool, we might get wi\te,r ?,-y~s ; is not such a gre::! t dea I of 3,000 or 4,000 bales. difference; but should prefer storflge in our own C r 5bT. tf you had no back cargoes what would 1584. By Afr. Rees.-What basis have you got you i1:lVe to do ?-Charge higher rates and run for this statemellt ?-Actl1al observations. I have more steamers. seen the river tall -2 inches in a day near the 1'562. By Mr. Rces.-Do yOU trade higher than Psyche-Bent pump. , ?-Yes j we go to Narrandera. 1585. Were you close to the pump?-No, a~ut 1563. By tlte ClwirmalZ.-~Has the river traffic r I. miles above it. 1'he river was then 2 ft. 6 lTI. been clecreasing?-Since the railways came into above summer level at the gauge. . competition it has. 1586. Bv the Cl/airman.-Wh3t is the height of I564. Will not the effect of the railways be to the river necessary for navigation ?-The average is further decrease the trade ?-During the time the about 4 ft. 6 in. river is navigable we have ;J1l the tracle. 1587. By Afr. Rees.-When the river is 2 ft. J565, You have lost the whole of the fruit trade, 6 in, at lVmdura it is very low here, is it not?:...... have yOU not ?-Nearlv all. Yes; about I foot or 18 inches. J 56'6. By Afr. Rees,::"-What becomes of the Hay 1588. By tlte Cltairmatt.-At summer level what trade when the river closes ?-We have lost all the i<; the actual depth ?-AbQut 2 ft. 6 in. at the trade to Hav in the drv se::lsons, gauge. [ 567. By ~ the C ltain;1a1z.--B:ow is trade carried l589. At zero the water is very shallow, is it or~ then ?-Bv the railway. not ?-Yes; at Echuca you can walk across the [~68. We' milY take {t, then, that the railwaYs river in places. . . c:o t:ompele witll 'the {-i,'e;: ?-Dming the dry seasons 1590. By Mr. Rees.-Have you -any authority tllev do. for saying that the river, when at 4 'ft.. 6 in., is i569. 13.1' Afr, Nces.--Do you carry much cargo affected bv the diversions ?-l have no authority t, HilX ?-We carn the bulk of the goods to Hay with me. - - now c1uri!lg the navigable of the year. 1591. ,Bl tlte Chairma~t.-Has .your firm ever '1570' Have you any flgures to prove this state given conSIderation to the IJI £1,845; material used for renaiY,:.£i64; total, Andrew vViIliam Hemv White. sworn ana £IJ,SOL J907.-\Vages w,hil.y,steamers running, " examil;cu. ' £4,315; wages spent in' r",p!}ir~, £1,38J (total wages, £5,696); firewood consumed during season, 1621. Hjl tlte Cltairmalt.-\Vhat are you ?-;-All £2,366; paid for provision, £ 1,948; material for audioneer amI borough cOiJncilIor. repairs, £6ro; total, £10,620. 1908.~Wages 16n.-You wish to make a statement?-Yes. while stbamers Imming, £S,646 j wages 'spent in have been in Echuca twenty-six years. The river repairs, £I,829 (total wages, £7,475); firewood tral1ic generally opens in June, and remains open consumed during season, £3,636; pnid for pro ulltil Lecember. Some~imes the opening is de- vision, £2,OIO; material u~ecl for repairs, £810; until September, and in such a year the ri ver total, £13,931. only remaillS navigable for hl'e or six weeks. The r604. These stoppages which' take pJ,lce in the va lue of the river trade to Ecl1uca is inestimable. lvlurnlmbidgee~wh"at are they due to ?~To lowness There mg ill the town tIro reel· gum saw-mills, 'which of. the river. employ, on an average, 100 men, distributing 1605· Mr. Abbott.--How far ilre the Moira £12,000 or £13,000 111 wages, besides spending Lakes from Echuca ?~Thirty-seven miles by water. i;z,ooo or £3,000 in contracts. The trade of these 1606. Your opinion, is that if a storage were mills depends entirely. upon the river transport. erected there, it would be a ,great :ldvantage to the Tilere are no within travelling distance by trade from EchuCl ?~Yes. I,mel. The steamers bring logs from places 40 to 1607· By Mr. jJ1anifdld.~You think that if a 140 miles awa v. ';L'here arc a bout sixteen steamers charge of 3 per cent. on the cost of the lockini'; O~I the river ~'ihieh have their head-quarters at were made at present it would knock out the tl ade Echuca, and there are from fifteen to twenty al together ?-Yes. During the river season the I1Ull1ber of 1608. What interest do vall' think yOU would be 11181l employed on the river is about ISO, with an able to pay without crippling the trade ?~t think average wage of 55. 6d. per and keep.' The the charge shoultl be made on the tonnage basis, total payment of wages was about £45 per day, say, 4d. for the first 200 miles, and 8d. for the ~o that if this number of men were employed all next 400 or 500 miles. . the venr round, the amount would be about 1609. By Mr. Gray.-Do you think the flow of £14;000 am,ually. Provisioning, at 2S. per day th" river during the last twenty years has been ,in· per man (£ 15), would be an additional sum of terfered with by irrigation ?~I said I think it has; about £4,7°0 a year, besides two wharf gangs of but I have no ·proof. sixteen men, at 85. per There are numerous 1610. Do vou carry the same quantity of wool wooel-cutters along the rivers, who obtain supplies now as you did twenty years ag() The wool from Echuca lw boat; also farmers and graziers, Sf'ason. happens. to come at the time of the good who purchase fencing material, sawn timber for' flver. building bridges, &c. Captain Freeman has al· 161 I. Have the people at Balranald' ever tried ready carried ro,ooo bricks this season, and I know wheat-growing?~Yes, but they had to .give it np of other boats which have carried :20,000. Stores' owing to the unsatisfactory river service. of all kinds are carried. Captain Freeman, in one ]612. By lite Chairmanl:-They would need irri trip to the Darling, carried £J05 worth of b<1con, gation for wheat-growing in that 'coilntry, would hams, and canned meats from the Echuca Milo thev not?-Yes. Bacon Company's factory here. There are two ;6£.3' Would they be able to pay lOS. per acre foundries it; Echuca, employing about eighteen for the water?-I don't know. hands. About half the work of these places is in I6I4. By Mr. Gray.-Do you think it would be conne!{iol1 with the river steamers. There are also to charge the whole farming community with here two flour mills, which draw a large portion the cost of locking if they got no benefit from of their wheat supply from riverside farms in Vic the locks ?-I don't think the farming community toria' and :\few SO'Jth Wales. In one year these should be taxed. A great portion of the exopense mills obtained by river 45,000 of wheat. Last sbould be borne by ,the general taxpayer, because v~ar thev received from this source I bags, it would mean development to the country, and ~vhile other buyers obtained 30,000 The the community generaliy would benefit. freight by boat' was from 5s. to 6s. per ton, while I615. You assume that if the river were Tocked the railwav charo;e was 12S, 6d. The great draw the people would come to the districU-Certiinly. back to the trade-is the want of continuity in trans , 16r6. By tlu; Cllairman,-Would it, in your port owing to the intermitte?t suppl~ of wat~r. opinion, be necessary to have storages as well as The maximum period for which the nver remams locks ?-I don't say locks without storages would navigable in one year is nine. months, and the be of no use, but, as far as I can see, storages minimum six weeks. The propnetor of one of the would be necessarY. ' saw-mills state3 that in 1901 the river did not r6q. Bv lllr. iemmon:--Are you of opinion that open for his boats until August, and in 1902 not people who would receive benefit should pay a river' till September. He was, consequently, unable .to tax, just as your fum 1V0uld par its share?-Yes. get a sufficient supply of. logs to keep the .mlI1 1 think other people will get more or less benefit, gain 0' and had to put hiS hands on half tIme. such as pastoralists and settlers. Great' expense, 'loss, a~1d waste .result 1n a sho~t 1618. Are IOU of the opinion that the fUture river season. Logs whIch are paId for have to l~e development \~'hich would result from the locking were they are felled till the next season. ThiS of the rivers' would justify the States in the ex means a '10ss of interest on capitaJ, and the value pense incurred ?--That is my belief. of the logs deteriorates. The same thing ap.r:lies 1619. What guarantee have we that your charges to the flour-mills in regard to wheat. The carnage would continue to be reasonable to the settlers and per bag of wheat for 30 mil~s by ,r~)ad is. IS. 6d., others ?~The competition in the. trade w(.uld in-' ancl bv boat 6d. per 200 miles. I her: IS a con sure that. siderable trade done with the Murrumbidgee P01:t5. J620. By Mr. Gray.-The inferest on the cost Timber is carried in large quantities to the Darlmg and Murrumbidgee building tim (I r locking' and the maintenance would ~:mollnt ~o di~tricts, bec~l1s,: ber is not obtainable 111 those dlstncts from loc.al about £9°,000. You say the present mcome IS atout £45,000. Could -the trade stand this ?~, ~Durces. Then there is an extensive return trade 111 No; it could not. pine to Mildura and other'ports. Pigs are brought . A W. B. White, 69 13th August, 11l01l.j to Echucn by steamer for s;lle from the \'furrull1- 1633. Have land values gone up here?~Yes; 25 bidgee. The Darling tr;lde has been almost en pe,- cent. since J902. There has been a good deat tirel y lost to Victori;l owing to the fact th;lt when of cutting up by big land-owners in anticipation the D,uling is open the Scnth Australi;ln bcwts of a permanent water supply. can neady always get to Wentworth, while the 1634, from Echuca (looking at the ques- Victorian boats canl1Qt get down. If the 1\lurray, tion from the points of view of the three Stat.es), were the Victorian stenmers could al\Yays if. one of the two systems, irrigation and navlga reach these ports as 80:)11 as those of South AllS tion,had to go, which do you think it would be? traGa. The bulk of the goods from the D.1rling I don't think either will have to go. would then came through Echuca, because Mel i 635. Neither do 1. But supposing one had to bourne is a much larger nnd better market thal1 go ?--I think luvigation. Navigation is infinit AdeLlide j the gccch obtainable are better nnd esimal in comparison with irrigation~ But there is cheaper, and p:'lrcbasers ha,\'e a wider cho:ce. no antagonism between the two--they go together. j\illmerO'lS Vic~ori;ll1s i1ave recently'taken up land 1636. I suppOse irrigation will lead to a great along the 'riyers. and these could. ,1l1d would, grOw increase of population in this district?-Yes, un wheat and other cereals if assl1l'ed of transport. doubtedlv. Some \'ears ago our fIrm endeavoured to establish 163i. 'What do you think it wiIi make the p~pu· a hide, and tallow market in and lation of Echuca ?-I should say 25,000. Irnga wo:lld have been highly successful but fOr the disas- tion' on the Wakool and Edwards will also result trous of low ri ver experienced every year. i'1 a great increase of population. Now those The of the Customs Department do not people are mostly graziers. fully the extent of river trade. Some- 1638. By :t/r. Abbott.-Do you know anything times as m'Jch as 100 bags of wheat and other n bout the Ivfoira Lakes?-Yes. gauds are carried from OI'e Victorian port to an 1639' If' a storage is made there, will it benefit other, nnd not entered in the Custom& books. I navigation 'at Echuca ?~Yes. would like to point out the hard lot of the river 1640. What irrigation is there is the district~ hands, mring to the uncerta inty of the river season. alOl1nc\ 'Echuca ?~A good deal to the south-east In some these men get nine months' work, (at the Village Settlement and Wyuna), s?me to the and in six weeks. Thev have to run up west, and none in the south. . , ..accounts \rith the storekeepers, 'and, consequently. ,64 [. With reference to the large amount of in do not to leave the town to seek employment terest which the river trade would be expected to elsewhere, while in debt. The uncertainty of pa y if the rivers were locked, would, Melbourne lp,bour also makes it difficult to secure good men. profit the locking scheme?~ There IS no doubt 1623. By tile Clwirman.---Do you know there ~s ill mv mind that Melbourne would benefit. The nc~ proi)Osal to lock the river higher than Echcua f1l11 benefit might not be felt in Echuca, or in this This cuts O:lt a great portion of the advanta,ge of rlislri::t, but it would in Melbourne. I do not agree does it not ?~Not a portion. \'Iith the evidence of Mr. Mead that navigation there any great loss by the low would interfere with irrigation. If the States rlver as fm as the snw-milJs are concerned ~ wotllcl the people of the district a lease of the Sllre]v it IS on 1v a loss of interest The hands rivers \vith the riaht to sell the water, thev would s'..1ffei- 'put on half time. They have to have :10 difficulty in floating a company in -London ITet a and if the\' have to move about to ;'e"ek Of; cnoital lines to carry out the locking scheme. , expense in trans- William Thompson, sworn and examined. ferring 1642. By tlte Chairman.-What are you ?-A 1625. Is there any possibility of the people on master mariner. tLr Wakool, Edwards, and other being con r643- What branch of the river trade have you nec:x:d with Victoria bv Unless had experience in ?-My experience has been morl';: thev have :111 efi1cien, river service gra'ziers. part.icularlv connected with the timber trade. .I 644. What is the nature of this trade?-The: r626. By Mr. Rees.--Has the railway to Swan logs are all fetched to the mills bv water, being Hill made' anI' difference in the trnffic to Ec1iuc"a? obtained within a radius of 300 miles-200 miles --Yes, it has made some difference. u].' stream, and roo down. '!\{ost of the timber is i6:27· Has t:le j\'lildUla line rr.'lde any difference? brought from up stream. ~Since this line ,\'as ouened we have lost about one 1645. How long does the navigable river last?-:-- steamer's trade. This> has been caused bv the un On the average about six months. , fair rates of the railway with a view to- d'rawing • 1646. What is to prevent the bulk of the tlmber traffic to the I inc. . , being brought in during those six months ?-I think 1628. Bv tlte C/tairman.~Do \'~u argue that the it could be done. locking of the rivers would benefit Echuca as much 1 . Is there a big popUlation engaged in the as South Australi" --As much as anI' South Aus timber industry?-Each mill employs about 100 tralian port. With a permanent - we would men. have as goorl a chanc:e for the Darling trade as T648. Hv Mr. Manifold.-Could the timber tradp South Australia. pay anything towards the cost of locking the river? • r629. Is it " fact tbat flour-mills have been burnt -No. clown' in Echllca. and not re-built ?,--Thev have 1649. By the Cltairman.~How long have yOll been re-built. Before Federation there was a flour been on the river?-Thirtv years. mill at Iwt this was removed to Victoria 1 6 ~o. Would vou feel justified in expressing .1 n whell the (iuties w('re done ilIYa,\' with. nninion as to whether the diversion of water fnr J6.30. Would vou put yourself as an authorit\' has made any perceptible difference in 0'1 the river trade ?~T would, as far as the DaT- the of the river ?~I believe it has made a I iog' trade is concerned. , difference fit the ends of the seasons. 16.)1. YOllr lipe is more in the direction of land T6~L What is your opinion the lock- \' r653. What depth of water is there in the Moira 1676. That is in respect to E~I1Uca?-No j that Lakes when they ate ElM ?-At the present time is generally. It is a seriolis dra\\,back to trade in there is about 9 or ro feet of water in the centre I,otatoes, oniol1s, an'd such perishable goods. of the iakes. The aVerage length is about 9 miles, 1677. Surely all the other goods (heavy mer and the \vidth about. 8, and the average depth about chandise) could be cari'ied in one half of the year? 7 feel:. -I . don't think the supplies for the flour-mills 1654. p,6 the ia~es fib 17II. \;Vould permonent navigation be of advan 1729. As the relative claims of tage to 'Milclura,?-Not much, as all imports and tion and navigation, what is the general view, of exports go by rai!w~y, except 'for a little to and people ?-Mildut~L f(~gards irrigation as of primary from Adelaide. ' ' importance, and the railway fulfils ~JI the transport 17 12. How do yOll get your firewood ?-At pre- wants. sent all by river. . • 1730. By lJb. Rec,s.-Are the period:; of 1713· What ore the possibilities of establishing :Jnd low river as ,mentioned in the 1908 agreement other Milduras ,dong the river ?-It would be un correct ?--The high period as far as MiIdura is con wise to establish other ,\iil duras, . in regard cerned is from J st July to 1st January, and the low to citrus fruits. from 1St January to 1St July. 17 1 4. By ,1Ifr. Rees.-What are the reasons of 173 I. The mentioned in t·he agreement the diminution of the river trade ?-The railway a re one month too late?-Yes, January and has been found to be more convenient; the fruit December should be included in the low river llsed to be stuck up for months j and the rail\\,<1 v period. It "'ould be unfair from experience here are very little higher. • to include December and January in the high dis charge period. 17 [5· If you had 11 locked river would yOU not have a choice of mad:ets ?-There is an ~rral1ge 1 73 2. Are the qu;mtities of wa tel' allowed South ment with Renmark which provides that Renmark Austr.dia fair ?-l cannot judge. South Australia does not send any fruit into Victoria and Mildura gets now quite as much as she requires. none into South Australia. J7 33· What are the months of your highest diver· 17 16. What would 'be the effect of a railwav to sian ?-December and January, tne rnontils when Renmark ?-Fruit WO!llcl be more advantageOusly South Australia. has to be given the higher volume sent by railway. of \\'ater. 1717. From Mil,lura experience coulJ the rail-'., I7 34. 13 v /llr. Smitk-Do you irrigate in March . way compete with the river?-Yes. amI April---Only occasionally . 18. From J\1ildur;I's point of view lockitl):{ IS Tlte witness withdrew. of advantage?-Yes. 17 19. Haye you always had sufficient flrewood ?- CILries James Grant, D.C.E., :Melbourne Univer Yes. If the water were raised by locking 1he sity, Engineer to the -;\Jildura. 'Water Trust, and Psyche Bend pump might be done a way with. Eesident Engineer of the State Rivers and Wate:: Supply Commission, sworn and examined. T ftc witness withdrew. I735. By tl;,e Clwinnall.-Whaf is the amount of diversion at i'vlilcl\ira 7i_J.t varies. There is a winter Edward Senmens, Esq., Secretary, Shire of :\jilclura, wltering in July if necessary, but the principal sworn and examinecl( diversion starts in September and is -usually con tlte C ltairman.~-How . long have you tinuous through December and J annary, with nc of the shire ?-Eleven years. casional waterings In March and April. 17 21. Have you any reason to modify your evi- I 736. Is the diversion inereasing ?--Yes, with the dence as before the Inter-State Commission of , increase of a rca irrigated. 19°2 r 737. Does the amount lEverted represent a COl) ,sidcrahle proportion of the summer flow?-When Have you made inquiry as to the shipping the river is :1.t summer level it is I,ot considerable, Mildura ?-There is verv little river-borne but when below summer leveJ there is a considerable goods passing Mildura j shipping agents say there pcrtion ciiverted-7,000 cubic feet per minute is is not more than 39 tons per year, apart from wool. our diversion, which quantity is a considerable pro There is some merchandise coming to Mildura from portion when,tlie water is below zero on the gauge. South Australia,. and some sawn timber is going away: There has been llO difficulty about water so far. 1738- "Vas the water ~l1pply d any time critical? 17 Whence do Darling people dr'lw their sup -Yes, when it was down to 2 ft. .1 I in. l:!elow Sllm plies from South Australia. mer level in March, 190:), the flows corresponding Is the river traffic to the below summer level gauge reajings are:- jng is decreasing since the 1 ft. ;~ in. belm" summer le\"el '" 48,(100 cuh. ft. per minute the river ports, more particularly in the case of 1 fl>. Gin. ,,40,000 3 ft_ ' = 1;),200 Swan Hill and then i\fildura when the Melbourne " traffic all came bv rail instead of river from .1739. How have you been associated with Echuca or South: Australia. The Bourke line .\Iildura ?~ Twelve Yt'ars. stopped all traffic between Bourke and South Aus I] 40. What :Hea can be supplied by the· present tralia. pumping pl:::nts ?-:-Of 16,000 acres sold by the 1725. In your opinion would permanent naviga Chaffeys, 12.000 are now watered, 2,000 more could tion all ldurray and Darling maintain tnffic for the be wa'tered by extension of present pumps and river ?-Not if further railways are built, as traffic channels, anrl '2,'000 are unsuitable. will al wa ys go to the rail wa ys. 174'1. WJut were the areas of the respective Ap:]rt from river traffic what is the efi:ect crop:; diJrin!-; the se~,son I908-I909 ?-Roughly, as extension into the river districts folbws:- development-Mil dura has made coni \iines 7,500 acres. progress since the railway was constructed. Omm'es 500 What is the time when the river is too low Lemo";,s 300 Apricots 400 ." for ?-It is usuallv too low in December, Other deciduous trees 700 " but it is so &ometimes in November. It opens for Lucerne 700 traffic in June. ' Crops Sao 1728. Are the shire valuatiolls ?~The • T 7 -'I z. Do (hc! debcntme holders control any land? annual value of the Mildura Shire is increasing at -Yes, there me 8,000 acres inside the settlement the rate of £1,OOq a vear, Thf; capital vf1.lu\) i5 a rea controlled bv the debenture holders, of this, Tlq)y ;¢;(SzS,ooo. c r hJlf is irri~able; bl1t is leased for gra?:ing, Lhe T. C. Rawlings, 73 10th August, 1909. present pumps and ch,mnels not being c RETURN the Illll]lber of Steamers and Barges arriving RE1'URN of Itevenuc collected at Vventworth. at and departing from Wentworth, also the registered £ 8. d. tOllnage of same, am! ~he autultl wei/;ht of ca.rgo ]ltllded 1907 260 6 7 and embl1rkcd during the year 1908, and the expired 1908 176 8 1 period of the year 1909. ID09 112 :~ 8 TOTAL Value of Imports and Exports I1t the Port of Wentworth 1$ ~D for the years 1901-8. ' ~~ II I~~ ~------Year. State, .os"'" ~. S" 'So~ "'''' "''''0<0 Yorl.r. Imports. EXliorts. ~~ ~E-<"'" ~'"" Iis'\hRDs. £ £ 1908 Victoria 61 5,945 "29 3,217 1,20G 1901 54,492 181,69! 1908 Sohth A us"tealia 82 8,391 53 4,445 :1,917 . 1902 26,543 28,736 1903 .. 22,207 lU8,285 Total J43 14,:l:l(i H2 7,(i62 (;,123 1904 73,064 108;882 1()O5 45,576 147,424 1!l06 54,859 3$J,530 1909 Victoria 24 2,963 12 1,232 840 1907 6i,23() 2~4,458 1909 South Australia 32 3,214 26 2,022 3,204 1908 71,590 327,444 Total 56 6,177 38 3,254 4,044 llETURN showing the number of tons of cargo iJassing un{ler the Wentworth.bridge up and down the I{iyer Darling OUTWARDS. each ycar during th!;) period 18Ull to 1908, both inclusive. 19081 Victoria .. 63 6,28!l 31 3,lIll 731 ~908 South Australia 88 8,41}9 60 4,785 3,328 Down Year. Up Stream .. SLrcum. Total 151 14,758 91 7,946 4,059 rrons. T()ns.~ 1909 Victoria 20 2;507 10 902 115 1896 8,oi5 8,901 1909 South Australia 27 3,142 ](j 1,2S() 420 1897 7,747 (j,067 1898 3,488 2,302 Total 47 '5,649 2ll 2,181 535 1899 5,557 4,,;W4 WOO 6,042 3,406 RETURN of duty eredit{!d to the State or' New South Wales 1\)01 4,384 2,842 on eargoes between '\Vcntworth and \Vilcannil1. 1\)02 ,Nil Nil 1903 5,399 2,283 W04 4,(;87 1,005 Ihonl South 1,4()4 Year. Australia. From Victoria. lUOS 3,004 WOG 5,267 4,040 ------U107 3,125 2,36(, 1908 6,115 4,728 £ . 8. d. £ 8. d . 1907 4,981 8 1 2,571 8 8 :1'otnJ-Thirteen yenrs 62,830 1908 5,162 12 8 1,837 17 1U09-to August 2,805 1909 1,\)18 4 7 1,182 10 °5 A verage per year 4,833 ...... ----~ .. _------\ STATEMENT showing the periods or dates dming which tlv; Darlih A. B. c. D. Year. Not Na\'igablc beyolHl N a ~'jgablc to ~lellilldic. Na\'igllblc to WIlC"lllli~, N,wigaulc to Bourke. Wcntwoi'th. 18!)3 Jltnuary to December February to Decomber :March to Angust !894 January to Docemher January to December AIJril to .Jaly 1895 Januflry to December January (iO April and De· February cemher 1896 January to December nlay to November' :Jlilrch, Apfii, ahd Sepkm. bel' . 1897 IJanuary to and li'ebruary 'tnd August to Sel1tember May to July. I August to jJ"CC'llllVCI December 1898 ., January to December M~1rch, Ai)ril, I1nd October' JanUary and February 1899 i\lareh to November March and August to 15th Not nayigable .. January. ]february, and November December 1900 April to Dece,mber April and Ootober August and September .January to March 1901 12th August to November August to October August ,!>hd September • Oustoms St.ation at was closed ill 1905, consequently no vessels were cleared Cronl here to t.hat place, though the river may liil,ve been na,Yigable at certain but I have no evhlence 01 thill. . . The witness withd'few, •. W.,B()wring; 75 16th Augii!!t, 1009. D. A. Motgnn; Stock Insp::::;~:}r; Yic'.ltworth, 1783. Would the if the rivers examined. were locked would cause a demand for a greatly reduce I7 67 . By tlte C lwirman.·- -How '.eng have YOli been here ?-Twenty:six years. the river t·raffic. 1768. How does the stock g') froTH \V;:,utwOlth? q84. What is there in w.heat farming? Bv traih frorh Milduht to. M~lbOlii'ne anJ by lOad There are a number which is mar- keted in South Australia. The country for 50 to Morgad, thence by traih In Adelaide ar~rl oeca sionallv bv Broken Hill. miles up the river is suitable for wheat-growing. q69. \\That becomes of Ihe stOC~{ in time c,f 1/85. Could you us some particulars of the (1rought?-The dry country all aro.und Wenrwlli'\-h Wentworth area ?~It is do.ing remarkably then makes Mildura the only o.utlet. If that line well. There is a. to.tal area of 1,000 acres enclosed, was co.ntinued to Yelta it wmild be a grea.t boon, 400 ,~cres mOe with fruit trees, and the rest thol1gh the trossing of the riVer without a bridge is under cro!). is a great obsta'ele. I786. B): JlIIT. ,C{lrlisle.-What is the rainfall alld 1770. As regards tlle wool traffic, which is the yield of wheat per acre along the Darling?-The rainfall is 12 and up to 20 bushels have principal o\.!tIet?-The nliljority of the Darli~lg \\'001 <:) ;[2,600,000, could the river trade stand the interest J. Lemmon, ES::h M.L.A., charge of £75,000 ?The river would not D. Smith, Esq., M.L.A. stlnd heavy tolls, which, if would force Emarluel J as. Gorman, sworn and examined. trade to the 1796. By tlie Clmirman.-Where do you reside? I782. Why is this-?-Goods must .have quick de- -In the Berrigan district. I .have resided there sp;l.tch, and it is b€tter to 5s. ton more for ~,bout thirty years. I am grazing and farming speed and certainty. IS caused, a Iso., there, but [ was auctioneering for ten years. Lly ste;1mers waiting tm have collected fnll 1797. J understand YOU were instrumental in etlough cargo. There is also no. insut!1nc~ to pay moting the Corowa Conference I was on the railways. sident of the Berr~gan Murray River Mai~ Canal E, .Ta9. Gorman, "'1 ~ 1st September, 1909. 7H Leagm', :lIld it was by that Leagnf' that the Con lSI I,' Do . you consider dairying is capable of ference was originated. We had :111 idea. for many l:1;'g2 eXp;1ll510n-IIl th:lt district ?-unlimited exp:m years that we o)Jght to get the l\l.urr:ly waters over siull; we kllow what GJIl do with the natural that big extent of countr)', practically from Denili gra';ses. quin to within about 10 miles of CorowD, at a place 1812. Have any of the experience called Burraja:l; it would go Savernake, of those who I~en in that dis- Berrigan, and Finley, 0nd terminate at the Edwards trict ?""':'I I1:LVe fed my own milk cows on lucerne; near Deniliquin, with branches running to the north. 1 found it acted d 11 rig.ht. I believe it .would be 1798. What started tint ye:lrs ago Sir necess[[ry to pastcurize, the cream on a large scheme, William Lyne got a report from Home on hut I am told if \oU did that there would be no ill the country; then Mr. lVlcKinny also reported on it, effect. - and we thought we would urge the New South Wales 1813. Do you feed them with it?-I . let them Government to go 011 with the scheme. The diffi run un it; in the dry times we fed Ollr cows on the culty was the l\furray water, and \\'e thought by dry Lucerne 111 bales, and found it answered convening a Conference, and getting representatives sniendidlv. from South Australi:l, Victoria. and the Common - T8I4_ :t\re you well acquainted with the views of wealth something \rould be clone to over the the people in your district ?-Ves, they are very difficu I ty. stron',!; In irrigation. I convened a meeting in 1'799. Had the climatic conditions at the time Berrigan twelvc months . and it was the biggest anything to do with the Confcrcncc , meeting ever held; all farmers came from 20 the rlrough,ts of I897, 1898, and 1899 had a great miles rouncl. At present there is scheme being deal to do with it; they were vcars of low rainbll, tried to pump water 25 from, the Murray to a1)d J902 W,tS nearly a~ record 'in that way. Berrig:lIl, for a domestic stock supply for the 1800. Vou are familiar with that countrv graziers, and to supply the township; 180 [. What is the area of irrigable cmrntry 1815. That water could be brought inb\' gravita should about 100 miles lon~, with an tion. with proper appliances ?-Undoubtedly. breadth about 20 miles-that is the most J 8 16. In vour opinion, the wish of the land land. ~)wners there' is that thcre shoule! be irrigation? 1802. Vou arc thowughly familiar with the coun Yes, 90 per cent. of them; an ode! crank or two may I have driven over nearly the whole of it. think it means having to sell his but the great 18°3. Have you had any acquaintance with irri 111:1 ioritv are undoubtedl v in favour it. gation in other p:lrts ?-In 1902 a party of us ;817: Is there am' ~ovcment that has Govern a couple of days in the Tatura district looking :It ment support in connexion with the pumping plant? the irrigation there; it was a marked contrast to the -A Trust will be formed, and the Government will oC,onditions existing in other parts of Australia. Sincc lend us the money, and ,"e will have to pay interest. then I have ibccn on the North Vanko, and hrlvC seen 1818. Is there z,m' proposal to establish head what Sir Samuel fl'IcCaughey has done there. works in connexion with irrigation in that area?- ,1804. From your knowledge of this country do Nothing definite. Mr. Le~, the Minister for Works, told deputations about year :lgo that you considcr it suitable for irri~ation r-~~".II"I that is, the pick of it; a greater area could when the niurrumbidgt'E' sc~eme was well lInder utilized, but that particular area is eminently suit way, he would propose, if he were 1n power, to able. take up the Murray scheme. It compares favorably with the North 18T9_ What scheme is that?-TheMain Yanko country, an~l the countrv round Tatur::l Cana I Scheme. taking off from the at Bun Yes; a few small areas about Tatura, I gc\\-annah, with. a storage reservoir at Cumberoona. should say there is nothing to compare with it there. r820. You mentioned dairying as one of the 1'806. Is it naturally gmded ?-Yes, the flow ii means of productiOli ?-Th~,t would be wit]1 closer from east to west; the grade is very little) pcrhaps with the large areas it would have to be 2 feet in a mile. We have taken levels at Ber floodillg natural grasses prior to putting in a rigan, and there it nms 19 feet in 20 miles from crop of whe:1t. north to south ,: probablv i't is a little more, from r 82 r. H:lve you had any personal of east to but T am speaking- roughly. I know production in th::lt area with drv f~rming I R.t one place there is a drop of .1 feet in 7,' milcs. !ravc teen wheat-growing for the last thirty veal's. but it is pretty ne:.lrly lcvel. In J896 the water ,T822. What sort of profits are made out qf lamh spread right out over the country. fattening in that district ?-A few years ago, when l807. How doe:; it compare with the Murrum va I ues were, pretty good, fortunes were made- bidgee country?-l think it is much better: I am 125. 6d. rend 14S. alJiece for lambs by the thousand_ ,,>ure it is bettcr than where Sir Samuel McCaughcy r82". How many, acres would go to a lamb ?-- is, but Ollt, towards Gunbar the v claim it is bettcr Taking it right through, a ewe and a lamb to country, but I have been out there, and I never acres. saw country that I thought was so suitable. 182~'. returns from that were very hand 1808. What would VOl! consider the use to which uo to lOS. an acre in a good that country could be 'put with \vater ?-I think the tRis a good se'lson there a best results would be from lucerne growing, and scason. the fattening of pig-raising, and cbirying. 1826. How is the land held in that district? There is SOmf' carried on now. hut in the There are some ver'}' large holdings, but principally .. dry seasons they to give it up. ' 1 think it by men from 640 acres to 5,000 acres, There has could be carried on all thc year round. if we could been a gooe! deal of closer settlement in the eastern irrigate a small area. ;lnd we' couH fatten lambs. pnt within the last vear or two. Further west, It is one of the healthiest parts of the State; we getting towards Deniliquin and west of Finley, on Iv want moisture. , there nrc some very large, holdings. i809. h dairying carried on, on n:ltural gI'8SS? r8n.Those est:ltes a"e capable of carn-ing :t -Yes. considerable popnbtion if they were ;'.nb-clividecl? 18IO. WheTF~ do the" send the butter to ?-Coola - Tt would he the pick of the countrv round Fin· man, Wagga, 1111<;1 Nl1randel'a, and sOp1t;times to ley; it is getting into the clrier "rea with a beautiful Corowa. loamy.soil.
Not Exactly in the Form of Milduras. I Hold That Mil- Dura 'Itself Has Too Many
