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14-08-2014 Operation Spicer Transcript Pp. 05341 E12/2107/0821PUB05341 CREDO/SPICER PUBLIC 14/08/2014 pp 05341-5367 HEARING COPYRIGHT INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION THE HONOURABLE MEGAN LATHAM PUBLIC HEARING OPERATION CREDO AND SPICER Reference: Operation E12/2107/0821 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS AT SYDNEY ON THURSDAY 14 AUGUST, 2014 AT 1.46PM Any person who publishes any part of this transcript in any way and to any person contrary to a Commission direction against publication commits an offence against section 112(2) of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act 1988. This transcript has been prepared in accordance with conventions used in the Supreme Court. 14/08/2014 5341T E12/2107/0821 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr McCloy, just come back into the witness-box, thank you. <JEFFREY RAYMOND McCLOY, on former oath [1.46pm] MR WATSON: Before the luncheon adjournment I showed a document to Mr McCloy was taken down from the Council website up at Newcastle. I 10 tender the document. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. That’s Exhibit Z29. #EXHIBIT Z29 - NEWCASTLE WEBSITE ENTRY ABOUT MAYOR JEFF McCLOY MR WATSON: Mr McCloy, do you know a fellow called Alan Robinson? 20 ---Yes, I do. Now Alan Robinson is a Councillor isn’t he - - -?---Yes, he is. - - - at Newcastle? And is he a member of any political party?---I don’t think so. Does he vote regularly with what’s called the McCloy Group or the McCloy Block?---In the majority of cases. 30 Right. And tell me who paid for Mr Robinson’s how to vote cards, his, his hand bills that were passed to people on election day?---You’ll have to go to my, my, my employee handled both our, our submissions, our - - - See you must have misunderstood my question, I wasn’t so much worried about that. I want to know where the funds came from to print up his how to votes, to have the billboards out the front?---Oh, I see. That sort of advertising. Who paid for that Mr McCloy?---He may have I may have, I don’t know. 40 Well if I suggest to you now that you did, Mr McCloy, would you deny that?---I’d have to check. Did you declare the fact that, sorry, did you declare the fact that you had paid anything on behalf Alan Robinson?---I don’t know. Well, well hold on. We’re getting now an acute point. You were running during the State election weren’t you?---No. 14/08/2014 McCLOY 5342T E12/2107/0821 (WATSON) Right, okay?---I was running in a Council election. It’s a Council election?---Yeah. Wasn’t Mr Robinson running in a Council election - - -?---Yes, he was. - - - at the same time as you?---That’s correct. And see what I’m suggesting to you is that you, Mr McCloy, paid for Mr 10 Robinson’s expenses for his how to votes, for his advertising materials which were available at the election booths. Do you accept that?---I hear that what he was doing was - - - No, I’m sorry. Do you accept that you, Mr McCloy, paid for Mr Robinson’s how to votes and for his - - -?---I may have, I may have, sir. What do you mean you may have? Is that like this may have that you told us during the compulsory examination because that seems to mean absolutely 100 per cent yes?---In the compulsory examination you’re talking 20 to - - - No, okay. I didn’t distract you on it, get back to Mr Robinson? You paid didn’t you - - -?---In the compulsory, let me finish with that please, sir. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, just let him finish, Mr Watson. MR WATSON: Okay?---In the compulsory examination that you asked me before I came down here to talk about two subject matters, the subject matter I came down here to talk about was Josh Hodges and Luke Grant. At 30 that particular time with regards to Luke Grant I really didn’t know who he was and I told you before I only by Google found out and then once again found out he went to whatever he went. What are you on about, Mr McCloy? THE COMMISSIONER: I think he’s talking about the, about the, the reference to - - -?---That’s correct. - - - he may have in the previous compulsory examination. Can we just 40 return to the present then, Mr McCloy?---Yeah. Thank you, your Honour. What are you saying now in relation to the proposition that you paid for Mr Robinson’s campaign material and, and you say you may have? ---Yeah. Is that, is that because you can’t recollect whether or did or you can’t recollect whether you didn’t?---Both. 14/08/2014 McCLOY 5343T E12/2107/0821 (WATSON) MR WATSON: I mean it’s not as if - - - THE COMMISSIONER: So you don’t, you don’t know one way or the other?---No, I may have, I may not have, my, my employee ran the, the books on both our - - - Campaigns?--- - - - ad campaigns. I see?---So he was the returning officer. 10 I see?---So when., when Councillor Robinson decided to join my team, back my vote, et cetera, a change from the previous – my, my CEO or COF ran both our campaigns. All right. So you wouldn’t know without consulting with that person? ---Yeah, well, yeah, that’s correct. All right. Thank you?---I may, I may not have, I don’t know. 20 What could be the circumstances in which you could accidentally pay for Mr Robinson’s expenses?---I don’t know if they’re accidentally or, or deliberately. What, you wouldn’t even know whether you’d done this deliberately?--- When I handed the rollover to, to, to my financial guy to do it I handed that role over to him and he did the paperwork, I wouldn’t have even seen the paperwork after that. You instructed your own staff to use your money to pay for Mr Robinson’s 30 campaign didn’t you?---I may have. What do you mean you may have? It would be a very serious breach of the electoral funding laws if you did do so wouldn’t it?---I don’t know. You were running for Mayor and you were elected Mayor?---Yeah. Did you do anything at any time to try and work out what application the electoral funding laws had to you, Mr Mayor?---No. 40 No. Did you answer? Did you do anything to try and find out whether the laws applied to you?---Yeah, I got one of my employees to be, is it the returning officer, is that what it’s called? Electoral returning officer. No, I’m talking about the electoral funding laws?---Oh - - - Sorry, they’re actually under the Local Government Act, did you do anything to try and work out whether they applied to you?---No. 14/08/2014 McCLOY 5344T E12/2107/0821 (WATSON) All right. Garry Edwards, could I just get some detail there. Now, Garry Edwards was or is the Member for Swansea, is that right?---Yeah. Now you said that Garry Edwards came to you and there was some mention of the 16 Footer, could you give us some detail, did he come to you at a place?---I got a phone call from the election, from, from Garry, he was down the 16 Footer, he wanted to see me, I was just half a kilometre away, he came up to see me, we started, spoke about the election. 10 All right. Let’s just stop. The 16 Footer I take it is a sailing club?---Yeah. A sailing club where?---At Belmont. And so Mr Edwards said he was at the Belmont 16 Footer Sailing Club? ---I believe so. Could he come and see you?---No. Well, what did he say?---He was at the 16 Footer at Belmont and he wanted 20 to see me, I said well, come up now. All right. And so what does that mean going up now, do you live near there?-----Yeah. All right. So you lived how far from the sailing club?---Five minutes. And so he came to you?---Yeah. Did he tell you why he wanted to see you?---I can’t recall. 30 And so when he got there what was the discussion?---Something about the election. And what about the election?---I can’t recall but the end result is I put my hand in my wallet and I gave him about $1,500 towards his campaign. All right. So did he ask you for that?---I can’t recall. Well, you just, then you just palmed it off on him whether he wanted it or 40 not?---The fact is I gave it to him, sir. Yeah, well, please try and - - -?---I can’t. - - - bear with us because we want to know what the legal consequences of this are. Did you say to him look, Mr Edwards, here’s $1,500, I’m going to give it to you for your campaign, did you say something like that?---I can’t recall. 14/08/2014 McCLOY 5345T E12/2107/0821 (WATSON) Did he say anything to you about I need money for my campaign?---I can’t recall, the fact - - - When you gave him the money was his campaign mentioned?---That’s four years ago, I, I, I know the fact that I gave it to him, what the circumstances was, I simply wouldn’t have a clue. Well, did you give it to him in the context of him discussing the election? ---I’ve answered that about five times.
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