1225 Andhra State [ 5 SEP • 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1226 Ala Malkiyat Rights Act, COUNCIL OF STATES 1953. [Placed in Library, see No. S-118/53.] Saturday, 5th September 1953 (ii) The Patiala and East Punjab The Council met at a quarter past States Union Occupancy eight of the clock in the morning, Tenants (Vesting of Pro- MR. CHAIRMAN in the Chair. prietary Rights) Act, 1953. [Placed in Library, see No. FELICITATIONS TO MR. CHAIRMAN S-119/53.]

DR. P. C. MITRA (Bihar): Mr. THE REPORT OF THE INDIAN GOVERN- Chairman, permit me to hail you on MENT DELEGATION TO THE 36TH SES- this auspicious day of your 65th SION OF THE INTERNATIONAL LABOUR birthday. Long live Dr. Radhakrish- CONFERENCE. nan. (Cheers.) THE LEADER OF THE HOUSE Sitar P. SUNDARAYYA (Madras): (Sinn C. C. BiswAs): On behalf of We, on behalf of our Party, also Shri Abid Ali, I beg to lay on the wish to convey our greetings to you Table a copy of the Report of the on this happy occasion. Indian Government Delegation to the 36th Session of the International THE LEADER OF THE COUNCIL Labour Conference held in Geneva (Sinn C. C. BiswAs): Sir, permit me in June 1953. [Placed in Library, also to offer my felicitations. I was see No. IV R. 0. (175).] not quite sure whether we could do that here, but now that it has been done, I feel it my duty on behalf of THE ANDHRA STATE BILL, 1953— the House to convey to you our continued warmest felicitations.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very SERI H. N. KUNZRU (Uttar Pra- much for your kind good wishes. desh): Mr. Chairman, Sir, the Andhra State Bill, judging from the debates that have taken place in another place and in this House, has been PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE received with mixed feelings. Its advocates have enthusiastically wel- THE PATIALA AND EAST PUNJAB (1) comed the principle on which the Bill STATES UNION ABOLITION OF ALA is based, while others have expressed MALKIYAT ACT, 1953. the fear that the formation of linguis- (2) THE PATIALA AND EAST PUNJAB tic States might lead to the diminu- STATES UNION OCCUPANCY TENANTS tion of that national unity on which (VESTING OF PROPRIETARY RIGHTS) the strength not merely of the Centre ACT, 1953. but of the States depends. I think, Sir, in so far as the formation of THE MINISTER FOR HOME linguistic States leads to the proper AFFAIRS AND STATES (DR. K. N. cultural development of certain areas KArsu): Sir, I beg to lay on the and to the better political education Table a copy each of the following of the people living in those areas, Acts under sub-section (3) of section the step cannot but be welcomed. 3 of the Patiala and East Punjab The principle was recognised by the States Union Legislature (Delegation Congress long ago, and considering of Powers) Act, 1953:— the long history of this demand it was inevitable that sooner or later it (i) The Patiala and East Punjab should have to be complied with. States Union Abolition of But what gives rise to an uneasy 65 CofSD 1227 A n an ra ,state [ UOU NU1L1 JiZU , 19J 1228 [Shri H. N. Kunzru.] Mr. Justice Wanchoo was asked to feeling sometimes is the bitterness report on the financial and other that leads to the separation of one implications of this decision and the linguistic group from another. Read- questions to be considered in imple- ing and listening to the debates that menting it. Probably the Govern- have taken place, I sometimes felt ment realised that the formation of that there was around this question the Andhra State would compel the an atmosphere similar to that which Government of India to deal with a existed between different language deficit State and to provide it with groups in Central Europe when the the funds that it would need to League of Nations was considering carry on its normal administration. the negotiation of treaties for the But I do not know whether they protection of minorities in various realised the extent of the help that European States. Apart from this, they would have to give. Mr. Jus- Sir, when the Home Minister, agree- tice Wanchoo has said in his Report ing with Mr. Justice Wanchoo's re- that according to the calculations commendation, said that a Boundary furnished to him by the Central Commission would be appointed to Finance Ministry, the budgetary make minor rectifications, I again deficit was expected to amount to felt as if we were considering not the about Rs. 5 crores. Even after tak- formation of new States in a country ing into account all new sources of that belonged to us but were really revenue and reduction of expenditure partitioning India or were dealing suggested by the leaders, of the with independent States. I hope, Andhras, the deficit will not amount Sir, that the formation of States on to less than Rs. 21 crores. So far as linguistic grounds will, in course I have been able to understand the of time, lead to the disappearance of Report, this amount does not include these feelings, but it cannot be the expenditure that will necessarily denied by anyone who thinks not be involved in the setting up of a merely of the welfare of the States new administration. How much it but of the progress of the country as will amount to, it is difficult to say, a whole, that the outlook for the though I believe that the Dhar Report present does not inspire that hope thought it might amount to Rs. 50 or with which we ought to regard the Rs. 60 lakhs. future. There is also another ques- tion, Sir, that should be considered Then, although Kurnool may be along with it. However desirable regarded for the present as a tempo- the formation of States on linguistic rary capital, and the formation of grounds may be, I fear it will lead the State of Andhra may have led to political complications in some the Andhras to feel that sooner rather parts of the country. Demands will than later they would be able to be put forward on pseudo-linguistic expand their State, and thus get a grounds which are really based on ready-made capital, there can scarce- political considerations. The Govern- ly be any doubt that the Government ment of India, I fear, will not find will have to incur some expenditure it easy to deal with such claims. on buildings. The Central Govern- However sound their arguments may ment has made it clear that it will be, they will be suspected of discri- not be responsible for the provision minating against the State whose of money needed for capital expendi- demands are not met. ture on buildings in the new capital. But I doubt whether, after creating a new State, which will be faced, at Now, Sir, leaving aside the general the very outset, with a budgetary principles and considering the for- deficit, they will be able to maintain mation of the State of Andhra, the their position long in the face of the principle underlying it had been ac- inevitably insistent demands that will cepted by the Prime Minister before be put forward for money for capi- 1229 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 12330 tal expenditure by the new State. any foreign technical help. But we Then there is the question of the have to deal, Sir, with the practical money required for new develop- problem. And I think, Sir, that if ments. I do not know whether the the Government had taken the steps entire sum would be given as a loan that they could have taken under or some of it would be given as a the Constitution and provided for the grant-in-aid. I shall not be surpris- construction of the various canals ed if some of it is given or has to and the hydro-electric works under be given as a grant-in-aid. Now I their own management, it would should like to know whether these have been better for the time being. questions have been considered by Central legislation, without the con- the Government. If they have been sent of the various States, would considered, then, fuller information have made, the Central Government should be given to us about it, wholly responsible for the capital which has not been supplied so far. expenditure that would have had to My hon. friend, the Home Minister, be incurred. They certainly would dwelt on many features and implica- have had to get the consent of the tions of the Andhra State Bill, both States. But considering their power in the other House and in this House, and influence, I do not think that but he was discreetly silent on the it would have been very difficult for financial question, although it was them to get the necessary consent not the least important problem to for the passing of the legislation be considered in connection with the authorising them to construct the formation of the Andhra State. I works that I have referred to, directly am asking for this information, Sir, under their own supervision. I not to put a spoke in the wheel of should like to know, Sir, why this those who want the Andhra State to simple course was not adopted. Per- be formed, for its formation is inevi- haps, the entire responsibility for table, its formation was accepted by the execution of the works by the the Prime Minister in December Government of India would have last, but in order to know how it led to the early materialisation of will affect our ability to carry through the project and would have avoided the Five Year Plan, for the imple- some bitterness that might now be mentation of which, we are already caused. It is of course not certain— thinking of resorting to deficit I do not by any means say that it financing. is certain—that Mysore and Andhra will be at loggerheads with one Then, Sir, I come to the Tunga- another. I hope that the two States, bhadra Project. I agree, Sir, with those having got what they wanted, will who think that, in view of the now try in their common interest to feelings prevailing between people act in concert with each other, with ' speaking different languages, it the sole aim of building the canals was not wise of the Government of and the hydro-electric works as India to provide for the construction quickly as possible. This will be, I of the high-water and low-water hope, an important source of revenue canals, etc., in the manner provided to both the States in course of time, for by clause 66 of the Bill. Again, but this is, generally speaking, a joint management at this stage can long-term project, and we cannot scarcely be welcomed. I do not expect the financial position of the doubt, Sir, the competence of the Andhra State to be eased materially Mysore State, or the competence of by the expectation that in course of the engineers in the Andhra State. time it will find, in the canals and The Mysore State has considerable the hydro-electric works, a valu- experience of irrigation works, and able source of revenue. it is greatly to the credit of that State that all its works have been Sir, the other day, my hon. friend, carried through practically without Dr. Ambedkar, made certain sugges- 1231 An r,ILra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1232

[Shri H. N. Kunzru.] appointed by the end of the year. tions with the object of creating or The Prime Minister, speaking in maintaining harmony between differ- Bombay in April last, said with re- ent linguistic groups in multi-lingual gard to this Commission: States. I do not want to take up the "Its terms of reference will in- time of the House by dealing with clude the consideration of the all of them, but I fear that they were feasibility of redistributing States based on an inadequate appreciation on a linguistic basis and also whe- of the facts. Take the case of ther such linguistic States would Canada to which he referred. He prove economic and viable units." said that the Canadian Constitution of 1867 enabled the minorities to I think he also said that the high appeal to the Governor General who power Commission would be appoint- had the power of redressing their ed a year after the formation of the grievances. As a matter of fact, new States so that the Government however, it is the Governor General of India might have some experience in Council and net the Governer to guide it in dealing with the pro- General who has been given the blem of the possible creation of new power to protect the minorities. This States. means in other words that it is the Dominion Government, it is the THE PRIME MINISTER (SERI Central Government of Canada, that JAWAHARLAL NEHRU) : I did not say can grant protection to the minorities, all that the hon. Member has quoted. and not the Governor General. Even It has little relation to what I might at that time it was recognised that have said. the grant of this power to the Gover- nor General would militate against SHRI H. N. KUNZRU: This is a the principle of full responsibility. Press report and I obtained the cut- Again, Sir, the power of carrying tings from the Information Depart- out or passing remedial legislation ment of the Government of India. . in case the State or States concern- ed failed to give effect to the deci- SERI JAWAHARLAL NEHRU: I sion of the Central Government was am not denying that the hon. Mem- vested in the Central Government, ber is reading from a Press report. I but by long disuse this power has said that the Press report was not become inoperative. Just as the correct. Governor General now can exercise no control over the Central Ministry, Sulu H. N. KUNZRU: I hope then so the Central Ministry for all practi- that the Prime Minister will tell us cal purposes is unable to exercise authoritatively what he said. I any control over the administration should like to know, Sir, whether it of the States or the Provinces by the is correct that the Prime Minister responsible Provincial Ministries. I said that the high power Commission may say generally that the sugges- would be appointed to consider the tions made by him are not applicable feasibility of redistributing States on to the conditions under which we are a linguistic basis. living. Had the simple suggestions or solutions proposed by him been SERI JAWAHARLAL NEHRU: I practicable, I should certainly have cannot possibly recollect the words welcomed them, but I fear that at that I might have used on that parti- the present moment the carrying out cular occasion, but what I said was of those suggestions will not lead to that the high power Commission any material change in the situation. would consider the redistribution of States on a number of bases, i.e., cul- Lastly, Sir, I should like to refer tural, geographical, economic, finan- to the high power Commission which cial, questions of security, etc. 'Cul- the Home Minister said would be tural' includes 'linguistic'. 'Cultural' 1233 Andhra State 5 SEP. 1953 Bill, 1953 1234 is a larger word than "linguistic". Paid to the question of financial self- All these questions will be taken to- sufficiency in the creation of new gether and the Commission will be States than has been given so far. given freedom to recommend what- The responsibility for what happened ever they think proper to the Gov- in the past is not that of the pre- ernment and to Parliament. sent Government of India, but the SHRI H. N. KUNZRU: There is not People will not forget what happened much difference between what the lll the past. For them the history of Prime Minister has said and the this country is continuous, and they substance of the speech as read out May put forward demands based not by me. There might have been other Merely on what is being done but on things said by him, but on the main What was done in the past. The terms of reference there does not Government of India should there- seem to be any difference. fore take this matter much more fully filth consideration than was done by SHRI JAWAHARLAL NEHRU: their predecessors or than has been There is this question of one year. done in connection with the present Bill on political grounds. Saar H. N. KUNZRU: I am glad, Sir, that the Prime Minister referred Sinn GOVINDA REDDY (Mysore): in his speech to financial considera- Mr. Chairman, Sir, through this Bill tions and has again referred to them the Andhras are going to realize a •from memory, from his recollection dream of half a century. They will of what he said in Bombay in April be, on the 1st October, embarking last. I hope, Sir, that the question upon a new adventure. I have no will be borne in mind. In the past doubt that they will face it bravely the Government of India or the and they will come out of it British Parliament had created pro- victoriously. I call it a new adven- vinces that had to be supported by ture because the way of the new the Central Government. Some of State is not quite smooth. There the States are, I believe, still receiv- ate troubles ahead. I know something ing subventions from the Central or the politics of the Andhras. The Government, and I think it will be Andhras must realize at this juncture, undesirable to increase the responsi- When they are going to have their bilities of the Centre. Let us try new State, that they must compose by all means to create political con- their differences. The first event of tentment in the country and to give the adventure will be, according to the people who love their languages Me, the formation of the new Gov- the fullest opportunity of developing etnment. In a new State we cannot them and making them proper vehi- afford to quarrel, we cannot afford to cles for the conveyance of modern f411 out and we cannot afford to have ideas, but this cannot be done with- a Government which may not be out full consideration of the burden stable. I appeal to Shri Prakasam that might be placed on the Govern- and Shri Ranga, the Andhra leaders, ment of India. It must be capable of to compose their differences with the not merely satisfying the ambitions Congress, to close up their ranks and of certain States but also fulfilling then have a Government with the its responsibilities to the whole hirgest measure of agreement. I also country. I stress this point because appeal to the Communist Party to co- it seems to me to be a very important operate with the Congress and other point, a point the force of which will Parties and see that a good Govern- not be denied by those who might ment is established in the new State be adversely affected by its full re- and that they begin with a clean slate. cognition. No one factor can of They must all remember that the ex- course be allowed to determine the Periment of the formation of linguis- decision on any question, but I hope tic provinces is going to be tried in that far more consideration will be Andhra and if perchance the experi- 1235 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1 236 [Shri Govinda Reddy.] `No', because those exploiters as he ment should fail or go wrong, it will calls them have been benevolent and necessarily have repercussions on so the allegation is not true. In the the other new provinces that are first half of the 15 minutes of his going to be formed. The whole speech the learned Doctor made more country is now looking at Andhra, to incorrect and unprecise statements see how they are going to fare, what than he has ever made in • the rest wisdom they are going to show on of his life. this issue and what they are going to SHRI K. S. HEGDE (Madras) : do, divided as they are now. Having You are not correct. this picture in mind, I appeal to the Andhras to do their very best and SHRI GOVINDA REDDY: I am to prove that Andhras are not only going to prove. The learned Doctor brave but they are also wise. Let started with attacking the Govern- not the world say that the Andhra ment of India for not conceding the dice is loaded with more impulse principle which the leading Congress- than reason. They must now show men accepted in 1921 and later con- reason and wisdom and make it a firmed it in their assurances. Well, success. I wish them well in this it was true that the Congress accept- adventure. ed that principle and the Government of India honestly tried it but the fact Before I offer my remarks on this that they accepted the principle does Bill, I would like to dispose of Dr. not mean that they should give effect Ambedkar. There is a point in which to it whatever be the consequences. I have a personal concern. He has As a Government they had to con- referred to the Reddys in Andhra sider the pros and cons. Dr. Ambed- and he has referred to them in a kar, I know, had decided many a way which brings them into ridicule. time to advise the Scheduled Castes SHRI C. G. K. REDDY (Mysore) : to change their religion and join It is all true, though. this or that religion. That was the conviction that Dr. Ambedkar had Slue GOVINDA REDDY: The hon. now and then; but did he give effect Mr. Sundarayya has explained that to it? He did not. They have still point and has shown that there is no remained in the Hindu fold. So substance in that. If there are big accepting an idea once does not mean landlords among Reddys, there are that they should fall in line with it also thousands of Reddys round one at once. He was all along flogging a such landlord who have very little dead horse. The Andhra Bill shows land themselves—less than 10 acres. very clearly that the Government I am not going to touch upon that have accepted the principle and the but the other point that Dr. Ambed- assurance of the hon. Prime Minister kar made on that occasion was that that a high power Commission would the Harijans and the Scheduled be appointed in this regard shows Classes under these Reddys were ex- that other areas are going to be formed ploited all over. Well, Sir, if it is and where was the need for the said that the Harijans are exploited, Doctor to make such a scathing in- it is an obvious fact. That is true dictment against the Government? not only of Andhras but of others It was very unwise of him to have elsewhere as well. But Dr. Ambed- given out some particulars in this kar's idea was not that. He wanted regard which he got when he was a specially to emphasise that there was Minister himself. He should know exploitation there much more than the first etiquette in administration perhaps anywhere else. If Dr. is not to reveal facts for which he Ambedkar goes today to those areas had in some sense a responsibility. and asks those Harijans whether The other incorrect statement was that they are prepared to come out of the Doctor argued on the basis of the those areas, I am sure they will say 23 States in India. He felt that be- 1237 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1238 cause they were all unilingual and sects and there are sub-sects talking they had gone on smoothly, the different languages in the same com- formation of linguistic provinces munity. And their interests clash in could never be anything but smooth. the matter of representation in the That is incorrect because these 23 services and in other matters where States are not States with only one they get concessions. If provision is language in them. They have multi- to be made for all these minorities ple languages—at least two languages on the lines that the Doctor has in every State and in some States suggested, then no Government can more than two. The other incorrect cope with it. It is impossible. So statement that he was making was that was another suggestion of his that they were linguistic provinces that does not hold much water at based on linguistic ideas. Actually all. they were provinces which came about when this linguistic idea was I will now proceed to some of the not in the air and therefore to argue important points in this Bill. The on that analogy that they were first and foremost is the question of linguistic provinces and therefore the Mysore. Hon. Members have re- national unity has not suffered is in- ferred to Mysore and two Members correct and the other supposition at least have criticised that the that he made was that protection of Bellary taluk should not have gone linguistic minorities should be provid- to Mysore. The hon. Mr. Mahanty ed for in the Constitution and his said that Mysore was a Part B State suggestion has been referred to by with a Rajpramukh and he has held hon. Pandit Kunzru here. He was that a part of Part A State should referring to the provision made in not be mixed up with a Part B State. the British Constitution for a Scottish Committee and for safeguarding SHRI C. G. K. REDDY: That is Scottish interests and on that ana- reactionary. logy the learned Doctor argued that here in India where we have linguis- SHaI GOVINDA REDDY: The sug- tic minorities and communities in gestion is reactionary, certainly, Sir. States, we should provide such Well, Mysore was not in the picture. safeguards. The learned Doctor was Mysore did not ask for these taluks again wrong there. The whole of to be added to Mysore. On the other Scotland was one minority there and hand the people in Bellary went on it was not based on either culture or deputation to Mysore, met the Gov- on language. It was a regional pro- ernment and requested them that in blem. To say that because Scotland the event of their deciding to join had some provision for its indivi- Mysore, the Government should duality in the British Constitution, welcome them. And the Mysore therefore they found it necessary to Government said, "All right." make a safeguard and therefore there Sim H. D. RAJAH (Madras) : Are the linguistic units and communities you prepared to give them up now? in India should be provided for is a thoughtless argument. Supposing we SHRI GOVINDA REDDY: We have proceed to provide for every linguis- not asked for them and, therefore, tic or communal minority, can we there is no question of giving them make it possible at all? In a State up. Mysore, Sir, has all along been there are hundreds of linguistic units a composite State. It has been the and communities. He was not only most cosmopolitan State in India. arguing on the basis of linguism; he Its history offers us a very good was arguing on the basis of communi- example of that. Whenever a reli- ties. If we should make provision gious founder was hounded out from for minority communities on that the North, he found refuge in Mysore. basis, then there will be no end to it. Shri Ramanuja was there. Chandra- In each community we have sub-. gupta lived there. So many Buddhist 1239 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1240 [Shri Govinda Reddy.] obstinately whatever be the conse- and Jain monks when persecuted in quences to others. Mysore would other parts of the land found asylum certainly be reasonable and Mysore in Mysore. Even today the trade is has got the interests of Andhras as in the hands of non-Mysoreans. much at heart as the interests of those Most of the offices are in the hands of people of the Bellary district who non-Mysoreans. So many non- will, from October 1st, become Mysoreans have come there of their citizens of Mysore. Therefore, if free choice and have made Mysore the Central Government or the Pre- their home. So, let nobody have any sident as it is provided for, in case fear that Mysore will be parochial, the two States do not come to an • that Mysore would do things in its agreement, if the President provides own selfish interest. for a common machinery of adminis- tration for these head-works, I have no doubt that Mysore would fall in With regard to these taluks, it must line with that scheme. be said that the people of their own free choice have come into Mysore and they will not regret it. And if The other point I would like to the people's choice is to be preferred, touch upon briefly is the question of then not only the whole of Bellary, the minorities in Andhra areas. The but some parts of the ceded districts hon. the Deputy Home Minister, of Rayalaseema, would also like to while speaking on this Bill, pointed come into Mysore. So let nobody out that there were strong minorities imagine that Mysore had territorial in the Andhra area. He put the ambitions and, therefore, Mysore figure of the non-Telugus in Andhra bargained for the Bellary taluk. at 27 lakhs. In my opinion it is something more than that. Well, it must be remembered that the The other question which I would Andhras, when they have claimed a like to deal with is about the Tunga- new State, should also prove to the bhadra Project. The attitude of the world that they are very particular Mysore Government has, in this to safeguard the interests of the regard, come in for severe criticism minorities. I must very painfully ut least from one Member on this point out here two or three cases side, and it was not quite justified. which go to show that these linguis- The basis on which in this Bill the tic minorities cannot be expected to assets and liabilities have been divid- be safe in the hands of linguistic ed has been accepted by Mysore and areas. One instance I will give on that basis they sent in an amend- now. In the border districts of resi- ment that because the head-works duary Madras and Andhra, which were situated in that part of the speak Telugu also, there were Telugu Bellary district which was going to schools and also regional schools, i.e., Mysore, Mysore should have the schools in the regional languages. control of the head-works. And the There were instances of Telugu State which has control of the head- schools in the Kannada areas and works will generally be in control also instances of Telugu schools in of the entire project. Mysore did not the Tamil areas. Now, these areas lay claim to the entire project. remain in the residuary State of Mysore only said " Let us be in charge Madras. As soon as the Andhra of the head-works and such part of question came to be mooted, these the project which is in Andhra area Telugu schools have been closed will be administered by them, and down. Well, this is an attitude which the canal which is going through the will not conduce to the interests of Andhra area will also be adminis- the minorities. If the Tamils retort tered by Andhra." But this is not a in that way, if the Andhras retort in claim by which Mysore would stand that way also, then where are these 1241 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1242 minorities to go? There is, there- they were completely neglected. fore, a genuine fear in the minds of Even now, they fail to get their Telugus living in the Tamil areas as share at least in Bombay. to what their fate will be, just as there is a genuine fear in the minds SHRI T. R. DEOGIRIKAR (Bom- of the Tamils who live in the Andhra bay): Mr. Kambli was there. He areas. Sir, on the occasion of a was a Minister. private resolution in this regard in SHRI GOVINDA REDDY: He was this House somebody questioned a Minister and he was the solitary my attitude to linguistic provinces. exception. I am not blaming them He questioned me as to what reason for the past but I want to say that I had to suppose that this step was when the Government have conceded fraught with bad consequences. the principle of linguistic provinces, Then I put a straight question to they can as well concede the demand him: "After the formation of the of the Kannadigas and form a Andhra Province, are you going to Karnataka Province. Those people have a single Tamilian officer in the are brave; they have been loyal and Andhra State?" and he at once they have their resources, very rich said, "No". natural resources which are not ex- ploited to their advantage. They SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH would like to have their own State (Madras): Who said it? and the Government should concede their demand as well. Smu GOVINDA REDDY: It is not a good thing to reveal names. Well, I join with other hon. Members that should not be the attitude either who have pleaded for the high power of the Tamils or Telugus or of the Commission. It would be in the Kannadigas. This is the worst interests of the Government of India consequence that is feared from the to appoint it as early as possible. linguistic areas and the leaders I do not under-estimate the difficul- should take care to see that they do ties that the Government have; but, go a step forward and do much more when once they have conceded and than what is expected of them in when once they have assured it, let the matter of protecting the interests it come forth as early as possible, if of the linguistic minorities. possible, on the same date that the Andhra Province is going to be in- There is only one other point augurated, let the personnel of this which I would like to refer to and high power Commission be announc- that is the question of formation of ed. other linguistic provinces. There is With these few remarks, Sir, I a justification for the general de- extend my hearty support to this mand for the formation of Karnataka. Bill. I pointed out—although I did not agree with the principle, on the SERI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: Mr. occasion of a private resolution in Chairman, I welcome this Bill. I this regard which was being discuss- welcome this Bill, because, in my ed here on the floor of this House— opinion, it is a victory for the peo- that the Kannadigas had greater ple of Andhra, a victory of the cause justification for the formation of a for which hundreds of martyrs have province than Andhras. At least, laid down their lives with the slogans Andhras had a voice in the Madras for a 'Visala Andhra' in a free demo- Government. Many of them were cratic India. Chief Ministers. There were and are Andhra Ministers in the Madras Secondly, I welcome this Bill, Sir, Government whereas in Karnataka it because it is a verdict of condemna- is only since 1947 that there has tion on all those who stood in oppo- been one Minister and, before that, sition to the principle of linguistic 1243 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1244 [Shri M. Basavapunnaiah.] of the points mentioned in the Bill, provinces and who did their best to I would make a few observations. sabotage the idea and the creation of The hon. the Home Minister, while the Andhra Province also. There introducing the Bill, said that several were several who argued that the people criticised the Bill because it theory of linguistic provinces was a does not contain the objectives and tribal idea, that it would amount to principles. After all, he only miss- Balkanisation of India, that it was ed mentioning the word "linguistic", a pro-Pakistani slogan, and what but people were up on their legs to not. Several such things were said. fight him back! The truth is that it This Bill, in my opinion, is a verdict is not a mere omission of a single and a condemnation on all those who word "linguistic", etc.; people are stood against it. Last year, in this insisting, justifiably insisting, also very House, I heard several Members that the objects and principles should speaking on a resolution, calling this be laid down very definitely. That idea of linguistic provinces a tribal is, on what principles are you divid- one, calling it a Pakistani idea and ing this new Madras State and on calling it the Balkanisation of India what principles are you forming the and several other things. They said State of Andhra? If you don't state that this would wreck India, it would the objects, it comes to nothing and wreck the Five-Year Plan and what its meaning is left very ambiguous. not, I don't know, Sir. That was the It may be, in essence, conceding it; position last year; today, this Bill is it is so, Mr. Govinda Reddy said that. a definite condemnation and I welcome But why should it be "in essence"? this and I appreciate it. When we are introducing a Bill, and a Bill of such a magnitude, we must Thirdly, I welcome it for it is the be very plain and clear as to what biggest breach in the imperialistic we want and what we are doing; in feudal political super-structure that what direction we are going and the imperialists have created in whether it is justified or not. The India in alliance with the feudal ele- omission is sure to create suspicion ments to suit their own adminis- and we have grounds to suspect the tration, their own plunder and to the bona fides of the pronouncements of detriment of the cultural, political, the Government. That is why we economic, social and other develop- have definitely demanded the prin- ment of the people of India. It is ciples, the main principles. The the first breach and I welcome it, omission of the principles is a grave Sir. flaw which will have serious conse- quences. Even now they must con- Lastly, I welcome it, Sir, because, sider it seriously and announce whe- it is in a measure the first attempt at ther they are going to form the laying the foundation for the future provinces on the linguistic basis in free Indian Union, a real Indian 1954 or 1955 or 1956. They may have Union, a solid Indian Union—not the administrative difficulties, economic present Indian Union which is fraught difficulties and boundary difficulties with so many difficulties—a Union and all these difficulties have to be which is based not so much on any faced and the problem solved. They principle except that the earlier must consider this question of the rulers in alliance with the feudalists formation of linguistic provinces and had agreed to partition the country definitely lay down the principles. It according to the whims and fancies is a great flaw, in my opinion, and it which suited their own rule, their is not a simple "omission" or a "com- own rule of plunder and perpetua- mission" of a particular thing. It is tion of exploitation. a grave omission, a very serious omission with very serious conse- Now, coming to the points raised quences. We very severely criticise in the debate on this Bill and some it; and not only we, but also the 1245 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1246 Members sitting opposite to us have rashtra Nation. They are very all criticised it. Though some peo- powerful—they have a glorious past ple have justified it—it is another behind them—but they are scattered matter—everybody pleaded for in four places; some in Madhya Maharashtra State, for a Karnataka Pradesh, others in Hyderabad under State and so on. What does all this the Nizam, another part in Goa and mean? Let us plainly put the ques- another part in Bombay and some tion and that question is that the other part in some other area. This objectives and principles must be way, people of every nationality had enunciated. That principle is to have been split into many divisions accord- States on a certain linguistic, eco- ing to the convenience of the then nomic and political basis and such feudal princes and the then rulers, other hundred things—call it national- the, British Imperialists. They had ity-wise, whatever suits you. But done it with the sole purpose of to avoid it is not avoiding the trouble. plunder. That was the basis for the On the other hand, it may create early division and their political greater difficulties and invite more super-structure. That division was trouble. On what grounds is the to suit their convenience, their foreign present Government justifying the rule and their exploitation. They present State boundaries and the were trying to suppress the voice of present political super-structure in the people, trying to suppress them. India? I am not able to understand economically, trying to suppress them. it, Sir. It is a most unjustified stand politically, so that they might per- that the Government of India is tak- petuate their foreign rule. That ing and it is persisting in it. One was the principle and that principle gentleman at one time argues that had been there and they erected the this particular set up should be con- present State boundaries accordingly. tinued and perpetuated; and there They had erected that super-struc- are others who say that the States ture to perpetuate the same old order should not be divided on a linguistic economically, politically, culturally, basis because the Five-Year Plan etc. The Government may say, will be wrecked; there are some "We are up with our Five-Year Plan others who say that there will be for a big cultural advance, for a big insurmountable boundary difficulties. political advance, for a big economic I am not able to make head or tail advance." A political super-structure out of it; the people also are not able has something vital to do with the to make head or tail out of all this. economic development also. Econo- Does the Congress Government want mic development can never take linguistic provinces or not? place as long as this Government 9 A.M. They say, "We have passed keeps on this political super-structure, resolutions 30 years back, 20 years a political super-structure which the back, and we have been doing all earlier imperialists and feudalists in that is necessary." That is no deci- alliance had evolved to suit their sion at all. Why are you not giving rule and to maintain their own old some concrete shape to them? They order of imperialism and feudalism. say that so long as one trouble or but nothing for the betterment of other continues, this cannot be done. the people in general including the But, the troubles will continue as peasants and the workers. That was long as the Congress Government sits the position. That was the principle here, both at the Centre as well as on which they had done all these in the States. things. But why is the Congress Government, which had pledged it- Take the case of the poor Kannadi- self to work for the liquidation of gas. I would call them poor, be- feudalism and for the liquidation of cause we are divided into two parts the British Imperialism in India, whereas they are scattered over persisting in hugging on to the old four States. See the great Maha- order? Of course today they have 1247 Andhra State f COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1248 rShri M. Basavapunnaiah.] tion. Then also the Government constitutionally guaranteed certain here were adamant. Then Swami provisions called the "Fundamental Sitaram—perhaps nobody can say Rights"; but those rights are being that he is a Communist; Mr. Patta- exploited to further the interests of biraman may say that he was also a imperialism and feudalism, to per- Crypt's Communist but I cannot say petuate the same old order. With that—had to resort to hunger-strike this end in view they had not con- after so many attempts failed. So ceded, even after coming to power, many resolutions were there. So the demand for the formation of many marches were there. So many linguistic States, and this they are deputations were there. But all were doing for the last several years. This in vain. He himself came to Delhi demand has a history dating back to many times on this mission but he 1913. This question was raised im- had to return empty-handed and mediately after the British attempted resort to satyagraha. Even the ex- to divide Bengal. At that time there ponents of satyagraha in the Congress was a great struggle in India for the condemned this satyagraha. They unity of Bengal. The inspiration of did not accept this because it did the Bengali people who fought for not suit them. Even after he under- the unity of Bengal caught hold of took this satyagraha the Government the Andhra patriots and this ques- did not move. Then Sri Potti Sri- tion of linguistic provinces was rais- ramulu breathed his last after 50 ed then, It has got a history of 40 days of hunger-strike. I wonder years behind it, as several Members whether the Government sitting on have already referred to. From 1920 the opposite benches had wooden onwards the Congress itself had hearts under their heels or they had pledged itself to it and had accepted their normal hearts in the proper and conceded the principle of place. There was no change of heart linguistic States. From 1947 to 1953 on their part when a patriot was the Congress Government is there, dying for a cause and he was made to with a brute majority, with nobody die. Nothing moved until he died. to question its actions. Nothing, Even after his death they were dilly- until recently, had happened in the dallying with the question. What rule of the Congress Government in happened? Three million Andhra the matter of forming linguistic people in all the towns as well as in States. Even on the eve of the last the villages came out into the streets general elections our Prime Minister to demonstrate; and it was only then as President of the Congress had that the Government had to wake gone to Andhra and wherever he up. Am I going to believe it? Is the had gone the whole Andhra people world going to believe it when you respected him very much. Several argue that there is the economic lakhs had mobilised and rallied to difficulty, there is the political hear him. They asked him—what difficulty, this difficulty and that about our province? He said that difficulty? Difficulties are there and the Government of India had not will always be there and every- considered it yet in all its aspects. where. We are here to surmount the So he rejected the demand and that difficulties and to go ahead and not to too in plain terms. We expected that plead difficulties when facing things. at least later, i.e. after the general And we are not to create greater elections were over and everything difficulties and greater calamities. had settled down the Government Three million people came into the would consider the issue and take streets and in the course of this mass the steps necessary. Then also it frenzy so many things happened. was very adamant. Here we moved Millions of rupees worth of property a resolution in this behalf. There in of the people were lost. This led to the Madras Assembly the people concending of the demand for the concerned had also moved a resolu- Andhra province, which has a great 1249 Andhra State [ 5 S FI". 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1250 history of 30 or 40 years behind it. only "solid" democracy will consoli- This is how things were done. date India which our hon. Home If the Congress Benches have a Minister Dr. Katju is so very fond of. mind to hear me I ask them. "You Only in this way the consolidation say you are still patriotic and anti- of the unity of India can come into imperialistic". Why did not the being and not in the other way. This Andhra people get their province I must say very plainly. These are earlier? When Orissa was carved, the general remarks as regards the when Sind was carved and so many Bill itself. things happened, why was not I would now come to some two or Andhra formed? I know, and several three points, Sir, and you will permit Andhra elders had told me also about me for a while. The question of eco- it, that at that time simultaneously nomic stability for the coming pro- with the formation of those provinces vince is raised by Mr. Justice there was a proposal mooted for the Wanchoo's report, by the hon. Mr. formation of Andhra. At that time Kunzru and by several others you were supposed to be fighting for also. It is a fact. If you are the liquidation of the British Empire so interested in the economic and now when it is all gone and 'when development of the Andhra State you are in power for the last several make it Visala Andhra by including years why did you not concede the in it the 8 or 9 Telugu-speaking demand? You did not concede the districts lying in Hyderabad; and demand even after the death of Potti then you may try to work out a Sriramulu, not even after you were Five Year Plan for agriculture, for routed in the general elections held education, etc. That is a very sound in Andhra wherefrom out of 140 proposal. Why are you keeping the seats only 40 were returned on the Nizam of Hyderabad still? If you Congress ticket, and where the Con- take a plebiscite there, 99 per cent. gress Ministers got defeated. So of the people will vote for immediate what is the lesson you are teaching? liquidation of that Princely State. It is this that you won't concede a But you are not bothered about it. demand unless three million people On the other hand you show us how come into the streets and do all economically unsound the principle sorts of things indiscriminately in- is! I say it is a very sound principle, cluding damage to property. With- and let any economist and let any out doing a proper thing straight- champion work it out. There are in away you go on appointing high all the 20 Andhra districts where the Commissions and low Commissions, rivers flow in between the present high priority Commissions and Royal Madras-Andhra territory and the Commissions, to delay the thing. The Hyderabad territory, and see the ultimate conclusion arising out of natural wealth that can be produced your actions is that unless the other there. Out of the forests and lands people, like the Andhras, make a immense wealth can be produced; big revolt, you won't concede their industry and agriculture can be deve- demand. Your Committees and loped. There are the mighty rivers Commissions are not going to satisfy of Godavari and Krishna flowing. us. They are terribly under-esti- If the resources of these rivers can • mating the urgency of the thing. be harnessed properly and worked Why are you afraid of facing real- properly, you will see how econo- ities and of keeping your promises? mically sound a unit it will be. Not You are afraid as if India is going only will it produce food for three to be torn asunder. Don't try to crores and more of Andhra people, if perpetuate this same order. Concede the other areas are added, but it will the demand of linguistic States. In be sufficient for thirteen crores of so doing there may be little minor people. That is why I say these troubles and difficulties. That is the reasons are very lame excuses and democratic way of doing things, and they cannot be taken very seriously. 1251 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1252 [Shri M. Basavapunnaiah.] Kanarese be led into the trap of this On some issues, Sir, yesterday, the misleading position and let not our Members spoke. The hon. the De- Tamil people do so. It is not our puty Home Minister had referred to contention that the Tamil Nad is this capital issue; Dr. Katju had also flowing with milk and honey and referred to it and also to the division that because these things are not of assets and liabilities, and the other there in Andhra we are quarrel- issue of Bellary. At the outset, let ling. All that I want to say is: me make it plain, Sir, that of the Let us have a principle, let us work Members here, particularly the hon. for that principle, fight for that prin- Mr. HeA, carried on a tiresome ciple; and let us divide as friends tirade against the people of Andhra. the assets and liabilities, etc., accord- He called them Chauvinists, imperial- ing to that principle. Let us try to ists and what not settle our boundary disputes amicably SARI K. S. HEGDE: Not at all. on a principle. SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: There Then, the hon. the Home Minister are people who - are struggling for has also referred to the capital. The freedom, struggling for their national Deputy Minister completed the State, struggling for their very picture by saying that the "demo- existence. They are not Chauvinists; cratic" forces have decided about the but I will point out who and where capital, that is Kurnool, and that the they are. Sir, we have our sympathy disruptive forces have now come out for the Kannadigas; there was never and are trying to disrupt the arrange- anything that the Andhra people ment. He also charged the Com- hated them for—we are not against munist Party on the floor of this the Kanarese nor the Tamils House as a disruptive force, disrupt- Sam K. S. HEGDE: You have not ing the Andhra unity, disrupting the heard my speech. arrangement with regard to the loca- tion of the capital of Andhra. Sir, Saxe M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: You I may be allowed to make a few cannot point out a single instance observations. Is it the Communist where the Tamils and the Andhras Party that is disrupting or the Party quarrelled in the streets nor was in power from the Centre that is dis- there any case of assault. Could you rupting the new State? I will show imagine that when three million if you will hear me patiently who is people came out in the streets along the disruptive force. Here is a state- railway lines and in cities—there ment made by Mr. Justice Wanchoo were the Tamils and the Kannadigas in his Report: "My first choice, and many other people—and yet therefore, would be the area between there was not a single instance Guntur and Kistna". At another where a Tamilian was attacked? place he goes on to say: "The loca- Therefore, you cannot attribute tion of the capital to the north of these things to the Andhras. I Guntur in that district would be the do not want to retaliate in my best thing". speech in the way in which my friend has done. It is not a This is the best idea expressed by question of quarrel. It is the hon. Mr. Justice Wanchoo. This is accept- the Deputy Minister who stated, who ed by many many Andhras through- tried to portray as if a silly quarrel out the country, including the Con- was going on between the Kanarese gress Provincial Committee. Who and the Andhras, between the Tamils is responsible for this decision about and the Andhras; and that because this capital? They say it is the Sri of these people quarrelling there, Baug Pact. This is a pact between they were not so far granting the the people of the Rayalaseema and Andhra province. This is just to the Circars to settle things about the mislead the whole lot of people capital and the High Court among against the Andhras. Let not the themselves. We respect the senti- 1253 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1254 ments behind that pact; we sup- A.P.C.C. Fifteen days after this deci- port the whole spirit behind it. This sion the people saw that this decision was concluded so that the unity of was a wrong one. At Madras, in the Andhra may be preserved and a pros- Legislative Assembly, they discussed perous Andhra may be built. It is to this question. The issue was that only see that no injustice is done to them Andhras should vote and all others and to enable them to secure a square could not come and vote and that no deal. If that is so, the leader who non-Andhra should participate. It was is now championing the cause of the Andhra Provincial Congress Presi- Rayalaseema—he is not here now dent again, the hon. Mr. Sanjeeva because he has been elected to the Reddy, who purchased five non- Madras Assembly, I mean Mr. Andhra votes. Sir, we could have Sanjeeva Reddy who is the leader of mustered our strength of about 15 or the Andhra Congress Party and who more to put down that, but we kept is supposed to be the leader of the to an agreement. The Minister Andhra people—was to have called now accuses that the Communists the representatives of both the Raya- were the disruptive force. Now, who laseema and the Circars with regard is the disrupting force? Is it not the to the question of capital. Has he Congress who out of 140 seats in the done that, Sir? Has he at least con- Andhra got defeated in more than 100 sulted the Andhra Congress Committee by a vast majority? The Congress is of which he is the President? Sir, he in an absolute minority in Andhra and has not. No party has been consulted it has lost its face in Andhra; Congress —he has not considered the public or is taken as a 'red rag' by the Andhra the Press either. There are three people. They are being boosted and dailies in the Andhra area—the buttressed by the central Congress Andhra Prabha, the Andhra Patrika leadership. and the third is a Communist paper. If our paper had written more than THE MINISTER FOR HOME 30 articles, editorials on the question AFFAIRS AND STATES (Da. K. N. of capital, that the capital should be KATJU) : Will you please speak a little located between Guntur and Vijaya- slowly so that we may hear you? wada, the other papers had come out SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: I with 60 editorials on it. The entire would be slow if the Chairman were to Press was against this. Now, Sir, who give me some more time to patiently is the disruptive force; is it the Com- and elaborately argue. munist Party? Mr. Justice Wanchoo advocated a good choice; the three MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sundarayya papers run by eminent people sup- has referred to the way in which non- ported it. They are run by Desh- Andhras were allowed to vote, etc. I bandhu Nageswara Rao's successors; do not want too much of repetition. by Shri Ramnath Goenka and edited by Shri Narela Venkatesa Rao. If SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: Shri you take a plebiscite on this question, Datar made a speech accusing the I am sure that 90 per cent. of the people Communists. including those in Rayalaseema would be against this temporary capital. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Rath will Sir, this is a decision further to disrupt answer Mr. Datar. the unity of the Andhra people; it is SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: The going to prejudice one sector against hon. the Deputy Minister says that I another. Where unity is supposed to have unnecessarily attacked Mr. be achieved, disunity is already Trivedi. I had no desire to attack coming. This was a decision taken be- Mr. Trivedi. Mr. Trivedi has been tween the leaders of the Praja asked by you to do certain things Socialist Party, the leaders of the Con- and he is doing them. I have gress who never consulted the Working raised this point because the Committee and the leaders of the hon. Shri Govinda Reddy stated that 1255 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1256 [Shri M. Basavapunnaiah.] to form the Government. The very the Congress Party should form the first step of selecting the capital- Government and that other parties Kurnool—is wrong. Everyone of us should help to form that Government. wants that there should be a stable Nothing is going to come out of it. We Government there. I do not want the thought that Mr. Trivedi was sent as a Central Government to do anything Special Officer to do the preliminaries more on this issue. That is not my re- for the setting up of the future Gov- quest to them. My request to them ernment. He has constituted an Ad- is that they should not intervene from visory Committee consisting of three here and try to buttress the reac- members from three parties, Congress, tionary move by Mr. Sanjeeva Reddy. K. L. P. and Praja Socialist Party Of course, when you want to suspend where the leaders are not leading the the Constitution there, it is your job followers and where the followers are to do it; when you want to send not following the leaders; and also military there to crush any revolu- from the other parties. When that tionary movement, that is your job. point was made by comrade But the capital issue for you is purely Sundarayya, the hon. Minister said, domestic. And there may be certain "You are disruptive forces; that is questions on which you have to advise why we have elbowed you out". I them correctly. Why don't you do it? am asking here as to who the dis- The very first start with regard to the rupters are, and the people of capital has been a very bad start. The Andhra are showing a place proper Central Government, Sir, is not in- to the disrupters. (Interruption.) I terested in the formation of linguistic do not want to give any more trouble provinces. to our hon. Home Minister because DR. K. N. KATJU: Will the hon. I heard him saying in the other House Member have some mercy on the poor and also I read in the Press that he reporters and speak slowly? had been spending sleepless nights. I therefore do not want to trouble that SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: The old gentleman. But yesterday what basis on which Mr. Trivedi has con- he did was he stood up and de- stituted the Advisory Committee is not livered a speech in which all his blows the proper basis. The majority party were directed, not against the real there ought to form the Government target but against a target which there. A Government that will go down should not have been dealt with as in no time, a Government which does. such, especially on this question. If not enjoy the sympathy of the people, it had been on some other ground is no Government at all. Without the sympathy of the people MR. CHAIRMAN: Make some con- nothing can be done. The bye-elec- structive suggestions in your speech. tion of Ramchandrapur is an eye- opener. I also went there for election SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: propaganda. The charges that were Very constructive suggestions. So, levelled against us were that we were Sir, this question is not a mere aca- looters, we were murderers and we demic question, but it is a very were bandits. Sir, all those slanders, serious question. The selection of all those abuses from your Benches Kurnool as a temporary capital was are really blessings for us. (Interrup- quite wrong. I wish they had chosen tion.) The result was that we won the capital anywhere between Guntur the seat with a thumping majority. and Vijayawada. That would have accelerated the growth and develop- Then, Sir, I come next to the ques- ment of the entire Andhra State it- tion of assets and liabilities. Of course, self and would have given a fillip to at the time of moving our amend- the Andhra Government. It was with ments, I would have more time to that view that we asked them to talk on that point. But several hon. change this capital, and with no other. Members have referred to assets and But by hook or crook you are going liabilities, saying that some demands 1257 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1258 have been made by Andhras. Sir, sore belongs to them and all that. there are Andhras and Andhras. The Andhra people are not behind There is the Andhra Congress Party, these impossible demands. Similarly there is the Andhra Praja Socialist the Tamil Congressmen demand area Party and there is the Andhra Com- up to Tirupathi and Nellore. These munist Party. The Andhra people demands are made only by Congress- . are themselves divided into parties. men who say that they are loyal to In the matter of assets and liabilities Gandhism, that they stand for truth, again, who are the trouble-makers? non-violence, Satya and Ahimsa and And the real trouble-makers must be so many other things. It is these taken to task. There is no doubt the people who make these absurd and question of assets and liabilities must Chauvinistic demands about the be settled. You have to divide them. borders, disrupting the unity of the But while dividing them you must coming State as well the Madras State. have certain principles. The hon. That is why the Communist Party and Mr. Prakasam wanted all the assets the people behind it, not only the to be calculated from the date of his people behind it, but a large number birth or the date of my grandfather's of the people of the coming Andhra birth. We said "nothing of the sort". State, are not in favour of these troubles and difficulties. These diffi- SHRI H. P. SAKSENA (Uttar Pra- culties are difficulties created by desh) : May I respectfully invite your Congressmen on either side of attention to the fact, Sir, that neutrals the borders. With regard to like myself who are not a party to Bellary, our stand is not like that this domestic dispute of Tamilians of the Congressmen on both sides that and Telugus, would also like to have the entire Bellary belongs to the their say on this matter? (Inter- Kannadigas or the entire Bellary be- ruption.) longs to the Andhras. We know, Sir, as the Home Minister himself said, SHRI T. V. KAMALASWAMY (Madras) : May I submit, Sir, that that it is a difficult proposition. There not a single Tamilian has been given are so many questions involved in it and to such questions an answer can- a chance to speak so far? not be given straightaway. To avoid [MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair.] all troubles for the future, we sug- gested a plebiscite. It was said that in SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: Sir, a plebiscite there might result an in- this is a question concerning the ternecine war, there might be blood- Andhra Bill. There are certain prin- shed. Let the hon. Members belong- ciples involved in this. Whether ing to the Congress Benches those principles are correct or in- and also those of other parties correct, that is a different matter al- go there and ask the people together. While dividing the assets not to get excited. A peaceful and liabilities, you must apply some plebiscite can be conducted and there principle, and you cannot have one should be no difficulty about it. Why principle in respect of one class and should there be any trouble? We are another in respect of another. As not going to create any new country. comrade Sundarayya pointed out, this This is only a question of a new is a very important question. If the linguistic State, a State with a lesser principle be that of population basis, number of linguistic minorities for the the refusal to accept that principle will greater betterment of the people. We rouse suspicions. Who is responsible do not want to grab any territory, any for creating those suspicions? It is further territory with more linguistic the Congress, the Congress High minorities and thus make the whole Command in power here, that is res- State a multi-lingual one once again. ponsible for it. That is why we say, in order to avoid The Andhra Congressmen say that any quarrel, that the Central Govern- Bangalore belongs to them, that My- ment should decide the matter by a 65 C.S.D. 1259 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1260 [Shri M. Basavapunnaiah.] be done only through a plebiscite. plebiscite. Let all of us do propaganda The hon. Member over there, Mr. among the people to keep calm and Hegde, spent forty minutes of his time not to get excited. After all, even in entirely for repudiating the Andhra a general election so much passion is claims and the House also was listen- excited. If a proper atmosphere can ing to him patiently. That is not the be maintained, if all the parties to the Communist stand. We are not fanatic dispute on both sides are asked to about language. We take other factors keep calm and vote according to their also into consideration, e.g., economic,' choice, a plebiscite is the best pro- political, etc. position. That plebiscite can convince those who are not convinced of the cor- MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You rectness of the demands. To avoid it wanted only 25 minutes, but you have seems to be in the interests of the Con- already taken 45 minutes. gress Party on both sides of the SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: I border, so that during the general would ask the other speakers to cut elections they can say that Bellary be- down their speeches. Please allow me longs to the Kannadigas on the other five more minutes. side, that it belongs to the Andhras on this side, and thus take advantage of SHRI K. L. NARASIMHAM (Mad- the sentiments on both sides. Evi- ras) : I withdraw in his favour. dently, they want to perpetuate these divisions. So, on the plebiscite ques- SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: Mr. tion, the Communist Party is very Govinda Reddy was speaking about the clear. They don't say that it belongs question of assets and liabilities. either to the Kannadigas or to the Wherever the property is, that belongs Andhras. Let a plebiscite decide the to the State in which it is situated, question. Let people also be convinc- that was his stand. Very good logic. ed. On this question, our Party has I appreciate his point. a definite stand. On this question of nationalities, Lenin, who had dealt SHRI GOVINDA REDDY: It is in with and solved the problem, had said: the Bill. "But the national composition of SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: I the population is one of the most im- know, but this principle cannot he portant economic factors, not the applied to all cases. I know that the only one, and not the most im- hon. Member takes advantage of that portant. Towns, for example, play principle, when he says: "The head a most important economic role is in our State and so let us control under capitalism, and everywhere— the head. The legs are in the Andhra in Poland, in Lithuania, in the State and so let the Andhra State Ukraine, in Great Russia, and so control the legs. The heart is situa- forth—the towns are distinguished ted in the Kannada part of the coun- most for their mixed populations. try and so let us control the heart To tear the towns away from the and let the Andhra State control the villages and okrugs which econo- veins". This is queer logic; I can- mically gravitate towards them for not appreciate it. My proposition is: the sake of the 'national' factor Let the Kannadigas and the Andhras would be absurd and impossible. unitedly work this project and see Therefore, Marxists must not take that both reap the benefit of it. their stand entirely and exclusively on the `national-territorial' prin- SHRI GOVINDA REDDY: I agree. ciple." SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: But Other factors also should be taken for this a calm atmosphere is neces- into account. Before we take people sary but it cannot prevail as long as to one side or the other, let their the Congress is in power. That is the willingness be ascertained, and this can whole trouble. 1261 Andhra State 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1262 SHRI GOVINDA REDDY: Now the that some problems will remain cat is out of the bag. there to be settled by the Boundary Commission. To avoid this, Boundary SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: Commission is to invite greater They do not allow the people to re- trouble. That is why last year we main calm. You see what is going on appealed to the Members on the in Andhra and what is going on in other side to concede the province, Karnataka. That is why we say: Let but you did not do it. The results the Centre take over the responsibility are patent. Has the country lost by of executing this project and then it or gained by it? You always talk create a corporation for its running, of economy. Now you have lost with Mysore representatives, with several millions of rupees worth of Andhra representatives, with Hyder- property. Is it a loss or gain? There abad representatives, and with a has been so much bloodshed and Central Government officer to pre- some innocent people were shot dead. side over it. This proposition is I stand for the linguistic division of democratic. The other side talks of India and particularly South India. democracy and talks of the unity of Unless you do it, your Five Year India, talks about the general econo- Plan will not succeed. How will it mic progress of India, etc. But they succeed if the Andhras pull in one are not true to their professions. They direction, the Keralas pull in the say, "Because the head is on my side, other direction and the Tamils pull let me control the head and squeeze in a third direction? So I would pre- your neck." Is this democracy? That fer the redistribution of India in the is chauvinism. That is why I say present Indian Union on correct lin- that the House should reject such a guistic basis and to this effect the proposal and stand for a corporation Boundary Commission should work. with the representatives of all the It may be that between Orissa and three States concerned and with a re- Andhra there may be some un- presentative of the Central Govern- charitable claims on either side. But ment to preside over it, so that the the Central Government is here. But project may be administered well in they say this is a domestic quarrel. the interests of all the parties con- Why should they come out and plead cerned. ignorance like the mischievous child The question of Boundary Corn- who beat the other and complained iission is another question raised in that he was beaten, etc.? The other ae other House and it is a question day they were saying that there were some gat is being discussed in the whole people quarrelling and that this f the country and the Government was a domestic issue. What are they ay that they are going to appoint it here for? They should take bold decisions. ) adjust the villages and the little opulation on either side of the MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You order. I had already pointed out have exceeded 10 minutes, taking ow the country was divided in an even the 15 minutes from Mr. Nara- tnprincipled way—in the way they simham. Please wind up. iked it—by the imperialists and eudalists, irrespective of whether SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: articular areas were Tamil or You can cut out the time from others. 'elugu, to suit their military or im- erialistic use. Now when you are MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Even. onsidering the question of dividing after cutting out, you have taken 10 r reorganizing the people on a demo- minutes. Please wind up. ratic basis, why should you hug to SHRI M. BASAVAPUNNAIAH: It and why the Congress should hug is here that I would quote again: ) it I cannot understand. We are ettling these problems by forming "And these conditions can be he province. Even after settling fully taken into account only by 1263 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1264 [Shri M. Basavapunnaiah.] SHRI M. BA SAVAPUNNAIAH: the local population, and on the My hon. friend Mr. Rajagopal Naidu basis of this account the Central was saying that Andhra province was Parliament of the State will define losing Madras and Bellary and he the borders of the autonomous re- forgot to say, "You have lost Raja- gions and the limits of the purview gopalachari also". We have not lost of the autonomous sejms". anything. Madras is there, the Andhra people are there in Madras, in the Tamil Nad and other places. As Here the Central Government regards the minority of Andhras in , pleads that it has nothing to do with Madras, there are Andhras in many it. Here they complained that there other places also. Not a few, but was one devil, i.e., Prakasam, that several thousands or lakhs are in was standing in the way of the grant- Bombay, there are many in Jamshed- ing of the Andhra province without pur, Kharagpur and also in Tamil Madras. Our Congress people must Nad. That is why we know how to have gone and told that it is Praka- respect the minorities because we sam that was demanding Madras and know the feelings of others. To those if he gave up Madras, they would get friends who say that we have lost the province! People would have Madras and Rajagopalachari, that is seen who was the leader that was de- the reply I can give. The Andhra manding Madras and delaying the State will be there not only to pro- province. At this eleventh hour they tect the interests of the minorities in say, "We are for linguistic provinces the Andhra State but also the Andhra and particularly Andhra province minorities wherever they are exist- because you have been clamouring ing. We stand for the peace and for it for the last so many years but unity of India. the devil Prakasam is standing in the way". Has the devil stopped that SHRI H. D. RAJAH: Sir, I am demand? While Mr. Nehru was addressing this House as an Indian making that statement here, Mr. Pra- citizen. Having my ancestry of Thi- kasam was speaking in Madras that runelveli, born in the Travancore there would be bloodshed in the State, brought up in Bombay and streets of Madras. In spite of it you settled down in Madras and repre- did it. Where has Prakasam gone? senting the State of Madras, I think Prakasam remains and several others I am more qualified to speak on this are also remaining. What is the linguistic realignment of boundaries lesson we have learnt ultimately? The of this country than anybody else biggest lesson is that unless people here. rise and the demand is irresistible, the Central Government will not Sim P. SUNDARAYYA (Madras): concede any claim. It is a lesson for Not at all. my Kanarese brothers, it is a lesson for the Hyderabad State people and SHRI H. D. RAJAH: This Andhra it is a lesson for the Kerala people State which is going to be ushered and this lesson we have been given into existence after the passage of that some devil is standing in the way this Bill is neither an Andhra State cuts no ice. nor a Telugu State but it is a mong- rel of a State. This is a grand mar- riage without the bride, Dr. Katju (Interruptions.) said the other day that before the birth of Lord Krishna, Jamuna was Sim GOVINDA REDDY: You in floods, and before the birth of this should learn the lesson that those Andhra State, Godavari is in floods; who rise fall also. but according to me this is no birth but only an abortion. We find that SHRI K. L. NARASIMHAM: There this State which is going to be usher- is the verdict of the people of Hubli. ed into existence, is devoid of a 1 265 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1266 major portion of a land which is full own Thirunelveli there is a place of Andhras, which has been part of called Pavoor Chatram, a village the reactionary regime under the some three miles from Tenkasi. Nizam, called the Hyderabad State There 90 per cent. of the population and this part called Telengana, is are Andhras. How did they come going to be the biggest headache to there? How did they come and settle the administrators of this country; down there? You will find that this even after this Andhra State is form- transmigration of population in this ed. That is the breeding ground of great subcontinent of India is no new the Communists and when that is thing. It has been going on. There the position, when once you decide is no bogey of linguistic minorities that a State must be formed on the being oppressed by anybody. We basis of language, what is the fun have to see what is the overall posi- of excluding a majority of the same tion and what the country demands linguistic population speaking the today. I say the surging feeling of same language from the orbit of that the innocent people, who have been State. Now what is the nrinciple clamouring for years for a Govern- underlining this Andhra State. You ment of their own spoken language, will find that the principle is that should be respected. The British because somebody agitated, because marauders, for their own political somebody died or somebody wanted purposes, brought about the align- a State, a State is being conceded by ment of States totally unrelated to the Government of India with much real life. But, here, after you have reluctance. They have no clear cut come into power, even the Congress- policy and do not look at the overall walas are fighting against themselves. position in the country on a wider Who is this Kami Reddy fasting in basis. Bellary and invited by the Prime Minister? He is a top-ranking Con- We have got twenty States carry- gressman. Who is the man in Kar- ing on the administration, having nataka who is leading the agitation direct contact with the people in for the formation of a Karnataka their spoken language. How will it province? He is a top-ranking Con- be, Sir, if Uttar Pradesh—the Hindi- gressman. Therefore, it seems that speaking area--is to be devoid of for the Congress people in power Lucknow and Allahabad? How will there is a separate conscience and for it be if Tamil Nad is going to be the Congress people outside there is a devoid of Madura and Thirunelveli? separate conscience. The Congress It is like this that the Andhra State is is doing things in its own manner. going to be thrust upon the people. But the point at issue is, what is the policy behind this Government? Have they a policy at all? Have they any Now, let us take item by item, the purpose to fulfil? If you once decide various aspects of this new set-up. that this country, especially the There are talks of the Tamils having South which is now in ferment to get oppressed the Andhras. Sir, I ask their aspirations of life fulfilled, in all humility, what is the oppres- wants to divide on linguistic basis, sion that the greatly tolerant Tamils what is there that prevents you from have inflicted upon the Andhras? doing so? After all, Karnataka, Hundreds of thousands of Andhras Maharashtra, Gujerat, Tamil, Andhra have settled down all over the Tamil and Kerala, these are the only six areas. From historical times right major areas in the South which are up to now you will find that the now in an incongruous manner kept Andhras have contributed to the together in different States. They political and economic growth of the are wanting to unite. It is something Tamil areas. Reddys and Naidus and like a dispersed or disjointed family so many other people speaking the wanting to unite again; and instead Telugu language are dispersed over of helping them to unite, you are try- far flung areas of Tamil Nad. In my ing to divorce them. Divorce has 1267 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1268 [Shri H. D. Rajah.] question of any deficit financing of a been the main mania of the Govern- State does not arise at all. The main ment of India today. They want question is how to re-align these divorce of the wives from their hus- areas for the purpose of allowing for bands. They want divorce of the the natural growth of the people. The linguistic people from their respective fact is, there is no division in the Governments. They want to divorce sense in which India and Pakistan themselves from their responsibilities were divided. There is no disintegra- and powers. Now, if this mania that tion. There is no hostility. Indeed, is prevalent in the Government of there cannot be. The fundamental India continues, there would be rights in the Constitution have con- nothing but the divorce of the people ferred upon every citizen of India the from the Government. The time will right to stay where he likes and to come when the people, not under the follow the avocation or trade he has inspiration of Communism, but under been carrying on usefully. So long popular democratic clamour, will as that position is there, the im- throw you out and teach you as to mediate point at issue is that this de- where you should be. Then, Sir, you mand of the people for re-alignment will open your eyes; but by that of their State on the basis of the time it will be too late for you to spoken language must be met. That open your eyes. is the position.

Now, Dr. Kunzru was referring to As regards the administrative set the economic implications of division. up about which Pandit Kunzru spoke I wonder what his economics is. He and about which he was feeling very talks of the Central Government sorry, the position is simply this. being responsible. Responsible to When one old State becomes two, the whom? I do not know. He talks of same officers get into the two places. the State Government running into There is nothing more and nothing deficit financing and then he talked less. There is no question of extra in grand eloquent terms of the Plan- money being spent upon these people. ning Commission and its deficit fin- There is no question of another 2,500 ancing. But if you go to the root of people being brought in and salaries the proposition, you find you and I paid to them. After all, you are not are the masters who pay these pipers. adding areas. You are not conferring Sir, the sovereign democratic repub- or conquering territories. You are lican is the man to whom these people not annexing these areas. India is are to be servants. Whether they are there. What is called Bharat is there. in the Centre or whether they are in It is only a re-alignment of the boun- the States or whether they are in the daries of States. municipal administration, they are administering by collecting tax pinch- Look at this proposal to have a ed from the common man. The same Boundary Commission. This Boun- man is giving it in different ways. dary Commission is something like Some of it is taken and pocketed by putting the cart before the horse. The the Government of India people. Some people want their States. When they is taken by the State Government ask for bread, the Government gives and some is pocketed by the munici- them stones. They say the Boundary palities. But the formation or the Commission will go into the details source from which all this tax is col- and then the Government will decide lected is the same—the Indian, the whether other areas are to be re- common man, the poor man. There- aligned and made into different fore it is only a question of the Gov- States. There is no more fantastic nonsense than this propo- ernment of India being divested of 10 A.M. some more money for the benefit of sition. What you should do the same common man, through a is to have the States first. Get them State Government. Therefore the 1 by meeting the aspirations of the peo- 1269 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1270 ple. Do not create more martyrs and British is inherited by the Congress do not become murderers; because people and they want to perpetuate it, they will say their deaths are all due especially in the South. The people to you. This course is pre-eminently in the South have now come to know needed because of the malevolent that it is not the case in the North. forces in this country. Follow a After all, what the people in the single peaceful policy. You have South demand is the same right which dealt with three States in this one the Northern States are having today Bill. Two more States—Karnataka and nothing more. Therefore, the and Kerala—could have been there. question about the formation of lin- When this Bill deals with these guistic States is not a question which affairs, you should have immediately must baffle decent statesmen. They four linguistic States. That is the can understand that language did not proposition. The Boundary Commis- stand in the way of any culture being sion will come next. If there are spread all over India. Mahabharata boundary disputes between these which was supposed to have taken States, the Commission can ultimate- place in the North spread all over. ly go into the facts and re-align the All languages have their literature territories in such of the States as full of stories of Mahabharata. That they deem necessary. great epic story is repeated by hun- dreds of men, women and children in the entire country. The great epic of Ramayana was recited by hundreds of Instead of that, you have taken up people in different languages. Lan- the question of the Boundary Com- guage was not a barrier. People mission in advance and you say that develop it. Two hundred and fifty or we will have to wait for the rest of three hundred years ago a great the States. I say that it is nothing anicut was built in Tamil Nad by but oppression by the Northern Indian Tamil engineering experts and even people on the poor South Indians. If today it stands as a monument of the you really want a proper amicable achievements of the Tamilians. In settlement you can have that only Trichinopoly a great anicut on the when the States are first formed and Kavery which waters the lands in then the Boundary Commission is ap- Tanjore district was built by pointed to go into the question. Does Tamilians with their brains and it anybody interfere with the U. P. stands unchallenged even today. The Government? You are running it in great Tungabhadra project was built Hindi. By all means do so for that is by Tamilian engineers without any what is expected of you. If you regard for linguism. Common effort don't run the Government in Hindi, is always available; common brain but run it in English, you are traitors is always available. People will go to your people. Today, that is exact- from place to place in search of avo- ly what is happening in the South. cation, in pursuit of business and so People want to know what is happen- many things, but still language affi- ing in the Legislatures. They want nity will not go. So, Sir, it is a ques- to get their suits disposed of in five tion in which a fundamental policy days and it takes them six months has to be enunciated and adopted by because orders are written in English the Government for the purpose of by the top dogs; they do not move the people. and these people have no redress. They are at the mercy of these bureaucrats who keep things for themselves in a language which is Now, Sir, one more point with re- awe-inspiring. The day to day ad- gard to the Telugu-speaking popula- ministration is not carried on in the tion settled down in various areas. spoken language of the people and Why should they feel worried? Lin- the people want to know where they guistic minorities are dispersed all stand. The awe and the might of the over India and they will get on quite 1271 Andhra State [ COUNCIL Bill, 1953 1272 [Shri H. D. Rajah.] the expectations of the people as a well, for anything opposed to tolera- whole. tion is against the spirit of our race. Sir, I now come to the subsequent Look at the Communist doctrine events after the formation of this today. It is another religion that is Andhra State. As it is, large areas spreading from the German language belonging to the Tamilians are in into huhdreds of languages all over Travancore State today. Now, it is a the world. Now, that religion which natural aspiration of the Tamilians to is having a pontiff in Russia is spread- •ay that such of those areas which ing throughout on the basis of differ- are not in the Malayalee-speaking ent languages. Is there any bar or area should be brought into the Tamil barrier? In the same way, there is area, and, so is the case with the no barrier with regard to human Malayalees. The Malayalees who development or progress, if any lan- speak the Malayalam language want guage is the only criterion for setting to have their great Kerala State; the up a State. The point that India is North and South Malabar districts going to be divided on the basis of which are today in the Madras State Pakistan and Hindusthan is totally are not to be kept in the Tamil State. irrelevant and not germane to the It is, therefore, in the fitness of things issue. You will see that that ques- that the Madras State must give up tion is a slogan created only by those its hold on North and South Malabar who are already settled down com- whereby `Aikya Kerala' may come fortably with their own languages as into existence and the Kerala area their State languages. Now, there- should surrender the Tamil-speaking fore, we should be in a position to areas of Nagercoil, Shencottah, Devi- appreciate the demand of those who kulam and Peermade to form part of say that you should yield ground to the Tamil State. If that is done, then those who are not agitating for any your problem with regard to that separatist tendency but want their area will be over. That is a matter Governments to be run in the spoken which our Government must serious- language, whose cultural develop- ly take into account. ment and economic progress can be Then, Sir, I come to the Mysore had in their own way. That is exactly State. There is no point in saying what they are asking. that Mysore is a Part B State. Whose responsibility was it that the Sir, the history of this country is Sovereign Democratic Republic of not of today or of yesterday. The India was divided into Part A, Part passing phase of the British domina- B, Part C and Part D States? It was tion in the context of history is a your constitutional monstrosity that small event. It has gone; but, if produced inhibitions of that nature you want to succeed in establishing a which are not relevant to public and real integration of the country and private life. When everyone is a want to see that the people develop citizen of India, having the same according to their own natural in- rights and privileges, there is no clinations and privileges, the only morality, there is no justification on thing for you to do is to let them your part to divide the States into develop on their own inherent cul- Part A, Part B, Part C and so on. tural lines. You cannot be an im- Therefore, the sooner you abolish pediment. Your Constitution cannot these things, the better for you. But, be an impediment and those who rule that is not to be. The Congressmen the Government of India today can- have agreed to keep these Maharajas not be an impediment to their natural in position. They kept these Rajas growth. That is the way in which and have elevated them into Rajpra- this State Bill must be accepted. And, mukhs. They were merely Rajas— viewed with that background, this of course, I am a Rajah without a Andhra State Bill falls far short of kingdom; I have got my name only 1 273 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1274 and there is nothing behind me—and SHRI H. D. RAJAH: With regard to they elevated them into Rajpramukhs. that area, now when that question of The Government of India stood com- disintegration of this Nizam is taking mitted to payment of fabulous place, the Maharashtrians will have amounts running into several lakhs realised their great cherished ambi- of rupees to keep them up. That is tion of having their Maharashtra the real difficulty so far as Mysore is State and the Kannadigas will have concerned. When you pension off their Karnatak State. And, if you that gentleman called the Maharaja have no objection, Sir, we will put of Mysore, when you take up Mysore both the Nizam and the Maharaja and add the disintegrated and dis- together so that they will equalise in tributed areas of Karnataka and form their weight and see that their privy that into a great Karnataka State, on purse is reduced to such an extent that day our Kannadigas, our biggest that both of them will starve. patriots, will have their ambition realised. So is the case with the MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You Maharashtrians. Sir, part of Maha- should be more dignified in your re- rashtra area was added to Nizam's marks. Hyderabad. It was due to various manipulations of the British people SHRI H. D. RAJAH: All right, Sir. and others on the eve of the disinte- They are Rajpramukhs. We have gration of the Peshwas. The Maha- nothing to do with them. rashtrians were so happy that the Peshwas once said when they were Now with regard to these two peo- invaded, "Peda se mara". Peda is ple the impediment is the commit- an edible stuff and the Maharash- ment given by the Government to trians were so much pleased after them that they will be kept in power eating it that they did not want to as long as they are alive. Of course fight any enemy. They started throw- today, Sir, they are only constitu- ing Pedas at the enemies. Thus the tional monarchs. There is no ques- Muslims annexed their territory and tion of my fighting against the Nizam. that forms part of Hyderabad today. I can as well fight against a shadow. Naturally in a democratic set up, in a My fight is with the Government of revolutionary set up, when people India. They are responsible today want to assert themselves and their for not bringing these people together rights, it is but natural that the under their natural inclinations and Maharashtrian area of Hyderabad desires. Their aspiration is great must go and form part of Maharash- and if you are wedded to democratic tra. It is but natural that the Kar- principles and if you feel you are real natak area must go back to Karna- democrats you must respect demo- taka and the Nizam of Hyderabad cracy from the bottom and not foist a must be completely dispossessed. thing from the top. Your advisers are all sun-dried bureaucrats who do not advise you properly in this re- MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Your gard. They have no connection with time is up. the people as a whole. They are totally divorced from the people and SHRI H. D. RAJAH: This is the first they are aloof from them and what- time I am speaking on this Bill. ever they say is being carried out. You have surrendered your brain MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Time and originality to the bureaucrats. If is strictly rationed. you think that you must take up an independent line and pursue the Slim H. D. RAJAH: Can I have ten wishes of the people and meet theft minutes more? aspirations this is the time. Do not create more problems. Do not create MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No. more agitations in their minds. The You can have five minutes. moment the Andhra State is ushered 1275 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1276 [Shri H. D. Rajah.] ed feasible 20 years ago need not in, you will see that demonstrations, necessarily be practicable today and placards, slogans and even law- therefore it is advisable that the Gov- breaking will take place in Karna- ernment should change its policy in taka, in Maharashtra and in Travan- the national interest. core-Cochin and in other areas. You are fanning the flame of discontent. Sir, the declaration of the policy of Thus in the face of such a political linguistic divisions is responsible turmoil how can peace, tranquillity, today for the disorder that prevails and constructive efforts to produce in the border areas, a burning more take place? They will only example of which is the bitter con- produce something more—chaos--not troversy that is raging over the dis- the things that are required for a puted boundaries of Bihar and Bengal. happy and contented life. Once for Some time back there were stormy all, I entreat the Government, I re- debates over this issue in both the quest them, I fall on their feet and States' Legislatures. The Chief ask them again for a realistic Ministers of the respective States approach towards the problems of life joined the members and vied, as it and to chalk out their line of action were, in hurling charges and counter- in such a way that you will fulfil the charges at each other. Sir, when aspirations of the people. Take an- veterans pick up the threads of dis- other Bill immediately, put up these content, the matter naturally takes a areas and reconstitute States and get very serious turn, and it is difficult the eternal blessings of the demo- then for the Government to ignore cratic citizens who are your masters. that problem any longer. It is to our eternal shame, Sir, that those who KUNWABANI VIJAYA RAJE (Bihar) : won for India her freedom should Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, the today stand divided among them- Andhra State is now an accomplished selves and should indulge in sowing fact and I congratulate the people the seeds of her fragmentation and and Members from that province on disunity. In this power-intoxicated having achieved their cherished goal. world it is the bounden duty of all At the same time, I regret that the the statesmen and politicians in our ground for the formation of the State country to come together to consoli- has been on purely linguistic basis. date rather than encourage disruptive These linguistic divisions may have tendencies in this country. some justification in principle, but the results are already showing signs of Sir, it is my firm belief that too these being far froth satisfactory. I much emphasis on linguism alone is am not opposed to the idea of lin- not desirable. It would be better guism being one of the reasons for perhaps to take more into account, separation. I fully agree that the the administrative and economic mother tongue should be given ample aspects of the problem. In this con- scope to flourish, but when the mother nection, Sir, I feel inclined to endorse tongue becomes the sole criterion for the views expressed by an hon. Mem- separation, the under-current of such ber from Bihar in the other House. a move cannot be overlooked. He expressed the view that reasons of strategy, administrative facility Sir, exploitation seems to be the and industrial development should also be considered, and I think this is order of the day. Under some cap- tion or other, in some form or other, a very sound proposition. exploitation is going on unabated and this craze for carving out separate Now, take for instance, the case of provinces is the latest. The Govern- Chota Nagpur which is in Bihar. This ment will soon realise their folly in area contains the richest mineral de- giving concrete shape to their past posits in our country. If the mineral commitments. A thing which appear- resources of this place are exploited 1277 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 J Bill, 1953 1278 to their maximum limit, Chota Nag- Sir, the Andhras have been able to pur promises to become the richest achieve their long-cherished ideal mineral belt in the world. I should and I am sure I will no be mistaken like to go a step further, Sir, and say if I say that the Tamils have never that India is indeed fortunate in stood in the way of their achievement. having an area like Chota Nagpur The Andhras are going to get their where all kinds of minerals are con- province after long sacrifice and centrated. Apart from the Damodar patient waiting; and however sorrow- Valley which is in this region, there ful we may feel that we are going to is also the Subarnarekha Valley part, yet we are happy that because which is believed to be even richer they wanted it they are getting it and than the Damodar Valley and which we want to wish them well. hitherto remains unexplored. The State Government have so far not True to the traditions of this House, been able to focus their attention on the debate has been of a very high the development of this area with level and there has not been the usual the result that Chota Nagpur which mud-slinging. But yet it is my duty should have been given pride of place to point out to this House that there is today the most backward and has been no distinction on the part of poverty-stricken area in Bihar. The the Government between the Tamils, people who should have been the the Malayalees, the Andhras or the most prosperous are today the most Kannadigas. All these years, the Gov- exploited, the most oppressed and therefore utterly frustrated, and it ernment of the day has been fair to would be no exaggeration on my all people. I may be pardoned if I part, Sir,—and I say this without any quote certain figures to show how the fear of contradiction—that the living Province of Madras has treated them of those people is not far removed well. Certain figures furnished by from that of animals. I do not want the Government of Madras will prove to raise a controversy or a suspicion what I say. The total irrigated area in this House that I am pleading for in Andhra is about 27 lakh acres; the the separation of Chota Nagpur for residuary State of Madras will have that would indeed be a contradiction only 18 lakhs of acres out of which of what I have already been trying 8 lakhs of acres are being irrigated by to stress, but I would emphasise that the dams and the irrigation works if a State Government is totally in- built by the early Chola kings. The capable of developing such a . rich irrigation schemes sanctioned and area which is not only going to profit undertaken in Andhra amount to the people of that particular area but Rs. 23 crores but in the residuary State the country as a whole then that State of Madras it is only Rs. 22 crores. Government has no right whatsoever The actual expenditure on irrigation to cheat the nation of its legitimate schemes till last year is Rs. 17 crores wealth. in Andhra and only Rs. 14 crores in the residuary State of Madras. The Therefore, Sir, I would like that the capital works for irrigation in Andhra Central Government should lose no area are to the tune of Rs. 27 . 9 crores, time in taking over all such areas whereas in the residuary State they wherever they may exist and form are only Rs. 24 . 7 crores. The pro- them into industrial units and develop posed Andhra province will be very them to increase prosperity and rich- well off with regard to food and it ness of our country. will have more surplus than any State SHRI T. S. PATTABIRAMAN (Mad- in the Indian Union. The Andhra ras): Mr. Deputy Chairman, it is the area will be surplus to the extent of proud privilege of mine to extend my 3 lakh tons, whereas the residuary support to the Bill on behalf of the State of Madras will be deficit to the people of the residuary State of extent of 10 lakh tons in the years to Madras. come. Again, in the Andhra area, the 1279 Andhra State COU NCIL ] Bill, 1953 128° LShri T. S. Pattabiraman.] been made much to the detriment of roads have been built to the length of the residuary State of Madras. 15 thousand miles while in'the Madras area it is only 24 thousand miles. I now come to the vexed question of Electricity development in the Andhra division of assets and liabilities which area will be 102,000 kwts. including is also referred to in the Seventh Sche- Machkund in Orissa and Tungabhadra. dule. It is said that the assets and The residuary State of Madras, in spite liabilities relating to commercial and of all its vast electrical undertakings, industrial undertakings snail, in the will have less than 1 lakh kwts. capa- case where the undertakings are city. situated in the transferred territory, pass to the State of Mysore and, in Sir, I have shown thus that the resi- other cases, pass to the State in which duary State of Madras will be the the undertakings are situated, and all poorer for the partition and Andhra land and all stores and other will be richer in its natural resources. goods remain the property of, At the same time, we are very sorry or as the case may be, pass that the Government of India was not to, the State in which they are very fair to the residuary State of situated. There has been a deviation Madras. In supporting this Bill we from a well-accepted principle here do not want to raise our voice of pro- also. The Bill here states that it pro- test. Hon. Members will not misunder- vides for the compensation of Rs. 230 stand me if I voice my feelings with lakhs for the buildings which, accord- regard to the Seventh Schedule, as ing to the claims of the Andhras, have regards the division of assets and been built by the sweat and labour of liabilities. The proposed Bill makes the Andhras and with the money some deviation from some well es- brought by the Andhras. Sir, it may tablished and well accepted principles be pointed out that most of the big which have been accepted by the Cen- buildings have either been built by tral Government and by this House. the East India Company or by the With regard to the division of in- Britisher or the Prince of Arcot and come-tax and the excise duty, the I am sure neither of them is an Finance Commission has recommend- Andhra. In these circumstances, I ed that the entire excise duty and 80 would like to know how this principle per cent. of the income-tax should be has been accepted that we must pay divisible on the basis of population. compensation to the tune of Rs. 2.30 Unfortunately, the Seventh Schedule lakhs. We are not raising the question has provided that the entire excise of money, but the question of the duty and income-tax shall be divided principle of compensation. Then there on the population basis and thus the is a likelihood, if a State of Kerala has residuary State of Madras will be to be formed, that we shall have to losing Rs. 30 lakhs by this deviation. pay compensation; if the question of a Karnataka State comes up, then we must have to pay compensation. The second deviation which is affect- Thus, a wrong precedent has been es- ing the State of Madras is with regard tablished in this Bill. There has been to the Central Road Fund. The Cen- no case analogous to this in the pre- tral Road Fund has been built up by vious division of provinces. When the a tax on motor spirit and by other other Indian provinces were divided, taxes. There is a certain amount of no compensation was paid; compensa- reserve to the credit of the Madras tion was not proposed or paid. The State. The suggestion is that it should Partition Committee set up by the be divisible between the Madras and Government of Madras went into all the Andhra States. On 14th April the aspects of the question and recom- 1950, according to the decision of the mended that one crore must be paid. Constituent Assembly, the division has The Partition Committee's report has 1281 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1282 been flouted and we are asked to pay submit here that in any other country, about Rs. 234 lakhs which even the if he had said that he would burn the Andhra leaders did not suggest in the Constitution—in the Assembly itself- Partition Committee. Sir, this is a 1 am sure he would himself have been very great handicap to us, and al- burnt in that Assembly and would not though we have been suffering, al- have been allowed to go scot-free. though we have been made to suffer a t3ut this is the democracy in which he lot, we do not want to stand in the lives and but for democracy, Dr. way of our friends and we will be very Ambedkar could not have talked like happy if the Andhra province is form- that. In spite of that, Sir, I would ed very early. have been very glad if Dr. Ambedkar had been very reasonable. Rather, he Then, Sir, I will refer to the remarks based all his suggestions on a mis- made by Dr. Ambedkar in his speech apprehension. He talked about the in this House. Dr. Ambedkar, as we special powers of Governors. For that all know, is a great man, a great con- purpose we will have to amend arti- stitutional lawyer. But his speech on cles 152 and 153 of the Constitution. that day was rather very painful. Sir, he said that there was a possibility Dr. Ambedkar, as is well known in of the legislators and executives be- this country and elsewhere in the coming rogues and scoundrels and world, has been the architect of our thus flouting the wishes and the rights Constitution. But it was most sur- of the depressed classes. Sir, the prising to see and hear from Dr. Constitution prevents the exploitation Ambedkar himself that he was not or the ill-treatment of the depressed the architect of the Indian Constitu- classes and the backward classes i. ,1 tion, but the real architects were the spite of the vagaries of the executives Father of the Nation Mahatma or of the legislators. Sir, it will not Gandhi, Sardar Patel and Shri be out of place if I quote certain arti- Jawaharlal Nehru. That myth has cles which confer greater privileges on been exploded by Dr. Ambedkar himself the backward classes and the depressed and it was very refreshing to note classes than any other Constitution. that. Again, Sir, in his speech he said Articles 23 and 24 are a protection that he would burn the Constitution. against exploitation. Articles 25 to I may submit here that the Constitu- 28 give freedom of religion. Articles tion was not the creation of a hand- 29 and 30 confer certain cultural and ful of persons, it was not the result educational rights on the minorities. of agitation carried on by a few per- Part IV of the Constitution deals with sons in this country, but it was the the Directive Principles of State result of the sufferings of unknown Policy. Article 46 gives a specifi• thousands and millions of people, and direction for the promotion of educa- I am sure, Sir, that their sacrifices will tional and economic interests of the not go in vain and it will not be possi- Scheduled Castes and the Schedul.'d ble for Dr. Ambedkar to burn the Tribes. The Constitution vests in the Constitution. I am, sure, Sir, if Dr. President the power to appoint a Corn- Ambedkar has an opportunity to burn 'mission and to look after the interests the Constitution, he will have to see of the backward classes. Sir, there- the entire country burning. Sir, the fore you will see that there is no burning of the Constitution is not an parallel in any other Constitution any- ordinary joke. Dr. Ambedkar was Where in the world. The minorities referring to the fact that if a person have been well protected in the Indian like Potti Sriramulu had died in any Constitution. Sir, it was also very other country, the Government of the wonderful to note that he was quoting day in that country would have been the examples of Switzerland, Canada lynched. But he was sorry that noth- and England. Sir, Canada is not a ing happened in this country. With country on the same lines as ours. all respect to Dr. Ambedkar, I would The Canadian Constitution was later 1283 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 12E4 [Shri T. S. Pattabiraman.] Rs. 1 clore and the total income cer imposed by the British Parliament. annum is about Rs. 20 lakhs. Out of Sir, there is no analogy between India that Rs. 20 lakhs, Rs. 17 lakhs are and Canada. I would invite his atten- given by Tamilians. Sir, this temple tion in this connection to article 92(4) has been built by the Tamilian labour of the Canadian Constitution, which and skill and it has been maintained runs as follows: by the Tamilians' donation. We are however glad to tell our Andhra "In case any such Provincial law friends that because Tirupathi is going as from time to time seems to the to them, we are not going to curtail Governor General in Council re- our contribution but we will continue quisite for the due execution of the our contribution of Rs. 17 lakhs to our provisions of this section is not friends and thus be the invisible tax made, or in case any decision of the payers of the Andhra State. Governor General in Council on any appeal under this section is not Sir, I have only one more point and duly executed by the proper Pro- I will finish. Sir, the Tamilians are vincial authority in that behalf, not fanatics. They feel that they can then and in every such case, and as live with others provided certain far only as the circumstances of things are guaranteed to them. It may each case require, the Parliament be pertinent to point out here, Sir, of Canada may make remedial laws that the generosity of the Tamilians for the due execution of the provi- is well known by the fact that ever sions of this section and of any de- since responsible government was cision of the Governor General in introduced in India, ever since 1920, Council under this section." there has been no Tamilian excepting one, who has occupied the post of Then, Sir, he was making a reference Chief Minister in the Madras State. to one other matter—a separate Secre- All these years, the Chief Ministers in tary of State for Scotland and also the State of Madras have either been for Wales. Sir, may I ask whether Andhras or Malayalees. We have no the analogy is correct here also? Sir, animosity against anybody. If the there separate Secretaries of State Andhras say that the Andhra area have been appointed for the welfare has not been well developed which I of the people on a territorial basis, but totally deny, it is their own fault. The not on a co nmunal basis. There is other day somebody said that the best absolutely no analogy between the two. brains are available only in Uttar Here, Sir. we find that the backward Pradesh and therefore it is that the classes have been well protected. The people of Uttar Pradesh are domirrit backward classes of Rayalaseema have ing the whole of India. I have no also been given a Rayalaseema Develop- complaint. I know that some of the ment Board consisting of M.L.As. of best brains are in Uttar Pradesh, but the Madras State. I would therefore may I point out that some of the best say, Sir, that Dr. Ambedkar's conten- brains are also outside Uttar Pradesh tion has been without any substance in South India? If the people of Uttar and without any precedent, Pradesh today dominate the political life of the country, it is because they Then, f`ir, I come to another point. are a well-knit, unified State. They It will be seen, Sir, that Tamilians have ninety Members in the House of have been deprived of many a portion. the People and about thirty to forty in We do not grudge it. The• Tamilians the Council of States. By numerical have always been silently bearing the majority they are able to dominate the hardships that have been inflicted on whole of India. We are not sorry for _them_ Sir, it is a glaring fact that it. We are only happy. I only h ,pe Tirupathi is going to the Andhra State. that in spite of the creation of these The total property of this temple is -linguistic provinces, the day is not far 1285 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 12E6 off when the people of the South will how Madras City was turn with cries feel as one against odds and will be of racial and linguistic hatred, perhaps united—the residuary Madras State, not heard since the partition of India. Mysore and Travancore-Cochin can be What is happening in Bellary now? well knit together as Dakshina Pra- What is going on in Hubli and other desh as powerful opponent to the places? They are an indication that domination of Uttar Pradesh. I h_pe the problem of linguistic provinces also that the day will not be far off should be tackled wisely and speedily, when the people of the country will but at the same time we must also realise that the unity of the country consider whether it must be put be- does not lie in the creation of more fore everything else, even economic provinces on a linguistic basis, in the prosperity. Today, Sir, responsible creation of more bitterness but that Andhra leaders are saying that no our salvation lies in the unity of the Ta•ilian will be kept in the Service.; different units. The common people of Andhra. This is the spirit behind of the country do not care about the the movement for linguistic provinces. linguistic divisions. The common man But we are not going to say that no is not concerned about these linguistic Andhra will be kept in Tamil Nad. divisions. The tiller of the soil, the We welcome the Andhras. We wel- worker in the factory, is not concerned come everybody. Tamil hospitality whether he belongs to this particular is well-known over the centuries. linguistic unit or that particular Tamil hospitality has been a byword linguistic unit. He is concerned only in the history of the world. We will with his bread, his clothing and his not exclude anybody. If you want a roof. If we are to give them all these proVince for yourselves, have it, but things, if we are to guarantee to all do not harp en the past and blame us. Indian' citizens freedom from want, If the Andhra province conies into we will have to increase our produc- existence, we shall offer them our co- tion, we will have to produce more operation. Today the people of the wealth. Let Visala Andhra come, I Godavari delta are suffering. When have no objection. Let a Tamil Nad one limb of the country bleeds. the come. Let Karnataka come. But we other limbs of the country cannot roust also see whether these will help stand idle. and the whole country is the common people. The common showing its sympathy towards I he people are going down in economic people of the Godavari delta. Sir, I prosperity and unemployment is in- hope that the proposed Andhra State creasing. I ask this question: Ixfill or the proposed Tamil Nad or the pro- the creation of all these provinces or posed Karnatak State will be only States solve the unemployment pi ab- a temporary phase in the history of lem? I am for linguistic provinces, our nation. There can be only two or but what are the problems that should three provinces in the country- be tackled first, that should have first Dakshina Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh and priority? They are the problems of a Madhya Pradesh. I hope that day unemployment and general economic will soon come when such provinces distress. Will the creation of linguis- will be established, when India will tic provinces solve the unemployment be united and when the economic well- problem? Will they bring about more being of the people will be placed be- production? If the question of linguis- fore everything else. Sir, I don't tic provinces is not faced in a calm want to strike a discordant note on manner, it would only weaken us. To- this happy occasion. The new Andhra day we are at the cross-roads of des- State will have many problems to tiny. Are we going to divide the tackle. It is for them to come to an people on the basis of culture and amicable settlement amongst them- language? Linguistic provinces may selves so that they can have a stable be a boon, but they disturb the peace and steady Ministry. To them we the of the people. We have not forgotten Tamilians in the residuary State of 1287 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 12E8 [Shri T. S. Pattabiraman.] Bhaktavatsalam, the gentleman who Madras give this assurance that we was responsible for agitation in the have completely forgotten the past. Andhra area in the recent years. He Whatever they have said about us created one Krishria-Pennar project. and about our top-ranking leaders we Nobody knew about this even in the have forgotten completely, and our Cabinet. He tried to take away the only desire and hope is that the Andhra water of Krishna for the use of the State will be a model for all the pro- South to a distance of about 600 miles. vinces and that the Andhra State will He tried to convince even the techni- be the forerunner of the establish- cal people, and after the agitation of ment of the rights and privileges of the Andhra people, the Central Gov- the underdog in India. ernment had appointed a Technical Committee headed by Mr. Khosla to investigate this project. He has given SHRI K. SURYANARAYANA (Mad- facts and figures. I need not go into ras): Mr. Deputy Chairman, I take all the details. The report itself shows this opportunity to thank the Govern- that with the proposed Krishna-Pennar ment for coming forward with this project it is not at all advisable to go Bill for the formation of an Andhra further without proper investigation State, by which the expectations and when there are schemes which are aspirations of the Andhras have been easily workable and profitable es- realised. It is the result of the agita- pecially to the Rayalaseema peopla. tion of the Andhras for the last twenty- five years when the British ruled us I need not go into further details and five years during the present and give the contradiction figures to regime. I need hardly say that this Mr. Pattabiraman. Already Mr. Bhak- would have been more welcome if it tavatsalam has published those figures had come earlier before the death of and the contradiction also has come our beloved Potti Sriramulu and through our friends like Mr. Viswa- others. Still I am happy that it has nathan. Our grievance only is laid come even at a late hours. This gives before the Central Government and scope to the Andhras to develop their with the Andhra Ministers who we-e territory in such a way that it will in charge in Madras during the last came first not only in the alphabetical so many years. I need not say all list of the States in India but also the things, that happened in Madras first in order of the degree of economic Government in all these years. It is development in the whole of India. for that reason that the Andhra people Our territory is rich in natural re- have supported the formation of their sources. We have got the waters of own province. The Minister for the Godavari, the Krishna and the Home Affairs while moving the Bill Pennar rivers. The scope for the has himself accepted that the Andhra development of natural resources is area was not developed as it could immense and if only financial help is be previously. So I am at least glad, given by the Centre and also techni- though I am not satisfied with the cal assistance, the Andhras will opinions of my Tamil friends here, I change the shape of their State and are satisfied with the opinion of the transform it into a granary, a veri- Home Minister, We are not fighting table heaven in the country. In spite with each other for the sake of our of these natural resources, unfortunate- selfish ends, even with Tarrrilians, or ly the Andhra area was not develop- Kanarese or anybody else. We fought ed in the past as it should have been. with the British Government for 30 My hon. friend, Mr. Pattabiraman years together. We lived together and gave so many figures which also came we enjoyed mutual hospitality in our in the Press previously and which were areas. Now see how the Kanarese given by the previous Minister for and the Tamils are treating the float- Public Works of Madras State, Mr. ing population in our urban areas in 1289 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 j Bill, 1953 1290 their hotels. We are not asking them Then, Sir, Mr. Pattabiraman said to go away nor do we impose extra that the Andhras were placed very taxes on them by surcharging any tax. comfortably for the last 20 years or 30 We are also generous and we are very Years not only in Congress but even enthusiastically spending our time in the Justice Government also and with them. In this way the Andhra that all the Madras Governments were area was neglected by the previous headed by only Andhras. For that I Governments of Madras as well as by can state some facts. I am sorry to the Centre. That is the main reason Say that these so-called Andhra Con- for the formation of •an• Andhra State gress Ministers being minority groups so that they can develop it unhindered. in our Andhra areas let themselves he I am not making these as complaints sold to Tamifians who provided them but on hearing Mr. Pattabiraman's with a comfortable majority in the speech, I want to show how the whole of Madras. They were playing Andhras were neglected previously. to the tune of the Tamilian political, chiefs to safeguard their position in They did not give sufficient attention their jobs. That is my reply to Mr. to Andhra area regarding communica- Pattabiraman. tions and public health facilities. Recently the Andhra technical experts One more point about Bellary, Sir. and the Central experts met at a My friend Mr. Govinda Reddy said conference here and they also gave that nobody had been asked to come some figures about public health. In to Mysore State from Bellary or any the Andhra area there are only 2 other area. sanatoria whereas there is a sanatori- um for T.B. in every district of Tamil SHRI GOVINDA REDDY: I said Nad. I got this information from some nobody from Mysore. expert at the Centre. Recently--some two months back—the Madras Gov- SHRI K. SURYANARAYANA: There ernment have taken away a number was an amendment given in the My- of lorries from Vijayawada belonging sore Assembly by a Member from to Civil Supplies Department on the Andhra area asking, why they should pretext that they have to be repaired not include the Andhra area of Mysore after the announcement of the Andhra to the Andhra State straightaway. State. A question was asked in the When you are accepting a proposal Madras Assembly that when there are which may not be acceptable to others so many workshops in Vijayawada why do you not allow others on the managed by Ford and Chevrolet, same reasons. where was the necessity for the Gov- ernment to take the lorries to Madras? SHRI GOVINDA REDDY: It is left But till now they have not been sent to tile- Andhras in that area to decide it. back. So also all the electrical stores that were given for purposes of agri- 11 A.M. culture have been taken away from even the villages just as the British SHRI K. SURYANARAYANA: My Government used to take to any other friend knows how many people have country. I am not blaming either Mr. Come forward before Mr. Justice Misra Pattabiraman or Mr. Rajagopalan who has received so many deputations, here. Our Ministers have taken these and in that also manipulation took and we have a grievance against our place. Out of a total of 354 memo- Andhra Ministers and the Tamilian randa received by him, 132 were from Ministers and this Government also, the Telugus of Bellary and less than but not any particular Member of this that figure was from Kannadigas of House or outside. We are agreeing Bellary taluk. On the last day 100 with the Governments at every stage stereo-typed memoranda from Hospet and so we are suffering like this. were included. Let Mr. Govinda 65 C.S.D. 1291 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1292 [Shri K. Suryanarayana.] policy in all matters, why did you not Reddy ask our friend Mr. Sanjeeva accept Wanchoo's Report? Sir, the Reddy who went on behalf of the Con- other day the Minister for Home gress. I don't know all the facts and Affairs, while introducing this Bill, figures personally. But I am finding said that Andhras wanted a committee after hearing all these dark acts that to deal with financial matters, another people of Bellary taluk are not willing for boundary matters and so on, and to go immediately to Mysore State. that if something went against them There was a challenge also in the they would start an agitation. But I Madras Legislature from a member say, Sir, the Government themselves elected from Bellary taluk asking the started this sort of thing. Why did Government to come forward for a they appoint Mr. Justice Wanchoo to re-election on this particular issue. enquire into these matters? And then A challenge also has come from the why did they appoint again Mr. Justice Bellary Municipality where, out of Misra? We want a straight reply to 32 members, 22 have challenged a re- that question. They had confidence election even on this particular issue in Mr. Justice Wanchoo and so they of the Bellary town. But in spite of appointed him. But now it is not convenient for them to do so and so that, the Central Government have they did not agree with that report. been obliged to decline that challenge. Where it is not convenient for them, They have declined our request for they don't agree. Where it is con- plebiscite. The Central Government venient for them, there they agree. wants to measure or rather find out the opinion of the people, by one The next point is about this Visala method now and then by another. In Andhra. We have been fighting not for the case of the choice of the capital of these eleven districts. We fought the new State, they wanted to go by with the British Government for an the wishes of the Andhra Members of Andhra State and with the Nizam also the Madras Legislature. In the case for Visala Andhra. But with the of Bellary, they wanted to go by the coming into power of the people's petitions that reached them. Where representatives, all this was joined. is the fixed policy in all this? That All the political parties, including a is why we have our doubts. That is saint like Swami Ramanand Tirtha, why, in spite of all these assurances President, Hyderabad State Congress given on different occasions, we still agreed with this demand. Where was have doubts regarding the treatment the trouble? Where was the neces- given to different sections, especially sity to wait for all these things? Tlit in the Andhras affairs. Mr. Justice is why there are doubts arising in Wanchoo also said that the Bellary our minds, about secret dealings with question could be settled only . after the Nizam. All these doubts should the Karnataka State had been formed, be cleared up by the Government. because the areas are so intimately connected in financial, business and MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Your other matters. Why could you not time is over, Mr. Suryanarayana. wait? The Central Government took SHRI K. SURYANARAYANA: Just not less than one and a half months to one more minute, Sir, I have dealt consider Mr. Justice Wanchoo's Report. with some points only. But when the Misra Report came, they did not take more than one and Lastly, I would like to say that we a half hours but accepted it even are grateful for the expression of without asking for the opinion of the sorrow and sympathy from all sides Government of Madras. Why this over the recent Godavari floods, difference and partial treatment? That especially after hearing the statements is the straight question I want the from our President and the Prime Home Minister to reply. When you Minister. In addition to such expres- say that you are adopting the same sion, we would also need financial and 1293 Andhra State 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1294 other help. Though such help has been morial, been united in its mighty ad- coming forward that is not sufficient. versity and it is in that spirit, Sir, that •Of course, the Madras Government is the present change is going to concentrating its energies on helping be brought about, a change the victims, but the task is such that which is going to reorganise and the Central Government also should reorientate in order to add strength immediately step in with money and to the Indian Republic in order to material and rehabilitate the victims unite it all the more and, in my of this natural calamity. Of course, opinion, all the fears which many certain Ministers from here and from Members of this House have express- Madras have gone there and certain ed regarding the future unity and technical aids have been given. But solidarity of this country, if linguis- immediate help on a military footing tic provinces come about, are quite should be sent in, such as the sending unjustified in view of the fact that all of bulldozers and tractors to cultivate along it is the recognition of this the fertile lands there. Otherwise our diversity of language and culture and State also will become deficit even the tolerance with which we have in food. Therefore I request the Cen- perpetuated amongst ourselves, that tral Government to rush on to the has been the foundation of our unity spot and save the people there. and our strength throughout the ages.

About the formation of the Ministry Now, Sir, while congratulating the in the new State, from the newspapers Andhras on this excellent spirit and we find that it is going on in a rather courage that they have shown as far bad way. Not even one party has a as the realisation of this ambition is majority to form a Government. I concerned, I am afraid I cannot share suggest that the Central Government the facile optimism of another hon. should take into consideration all friend here, namely, Mr. Rajah, who these difficulties and form an all-party pronounced so lightly, "Oh, as far as Government, getting them all together the question of deficit financing is con- at a meeting at first, at a round table cerned, it is all nonsense. It does not conference, without prejudice to their exist at all. You have just got to political views. That would be better. take some money from the tax payer's That is the only way to solve the pro- pockets here and pay it there and blem. I sincerely request that a there is an end to the question". It feasible honourable method should be is very rightly, in my opinion, that my considered by the Government to friend, Dr. Kunzru, has pointed out have a stable Government in Andhra the serious difficulties as far as finance State. is concerned for the future well-being of this great State 'SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO (Orissa): which is going to come into existence Mr. Deputy Chairman, when the re- in India as an example of further solution for bringing about an Andhra linguistic States whereby to strengthen Province was debated in this House, I our unity and unite our strength. supported that measure fully and it Now, even taking a very conservative is in that spirit today that the reali- estimate, as far as the financial stabi- sation of the hopes and the desires lity of the Andhra State is concerned, of the Andhras is about to take place, along with its capital expenses and and I rise again to congratulate them on administrative expenses, I don't think the heroic effort and sacrifices that that a sum of less than Rs. 10 crores they have shown in extracting this will be required to put a new State right of theirs from the present Gov- on a sound basis in this land. Now, ernment, a right which I hope is it is all very well for the hon. the going to perpetuate the principle of Home Minister to attempt in his unity which is in consonance with the usual optimistic way and try to shelve traditional history of this country. responsibility, in his light-hearted This country has, from time imme- manner, by saying, "Oh, our Andhra 1295 Andhra State [ COUNCIL Bill, 1953 1296 [Shri P. C. Bhanj Deo.] blind man, namely, the Home friends can come to the Centre. The Minister." Kamadhenu which is al- Centre is the SHRI C. G. K. REDDY: He is not ways there to be milked by any here. man who comes along and says, 'I have no money. Give me money SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: As far as because I want to build a new capital; the capital is concerned I want to establish myself financially'." It is all very well to say such a thing SHRI J. R. KAPOOR: Does not he light-heartedly, but I think the Finance see the Home Minister's eyes? Minister is right in not committing An HON. MEMBER: He is not here. himself in any way in this manner, because, where is the ten crores of SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: As far rupees going to come from? It is the expenditure on the capital is con- going to come from the tax payers' cerned, especially with regard to the pocket; it is not Dr. Katju's money; building of a new capital, my Andhra it is not Shri Deshmukh's money; it friends ought to take a lesson from us is the money of the people; it is the in Orissa who tried to build a new money of the tax payer over capital and are now suffering for it. which the whole of India has Andhra is a new State after all a claim. Even the backward and Orissa an old State. In Orissa parts of this country have a it was estimated that its new capital claim on this money and other States at Bhubaneswar would cost Rs. to which the Centre is committed, 5,40,Q0,000. Now, for this chronically have also a claim on this money. And, deficit State, what has been the con- if it is available at the Centre to give tribution of the Centre as far as the to the Andhra State for its present building of this capital is concerned needs, what is the guarantee that and for the opening of which Pandit there will not be other priorities for Jawaharlal Nehru specially went to taking that money for uses to Orissa? Up to date, after much haggl- which the Centre is already pledged? ing, the Centre has been pleased to Apart from this fact, the Centre is give only a crore and thirty-two lakhs already pledged to the Five Year Plan of rupees towards the building of that and, as Dr. Kunzru poiniff out, that capital, and up to 1953, an expenditure is sought to be bolstered up by loans of Rs. 3,60,00,000 will have been and deficit financing. Therefore, looking incurred on the building of the capital at this matter in a realistic manner in Orissa by the Orissa Government my Andhra friends should remember itself from its own scanty funds. Not the very apt quotation - of Shri only that; now that the cost of build- Devaprasad Ghosh when he modified ing materials and other things has the Upanishad: gone up, it will cost the Orissa Govern- ment not less than about seven crores " q,-1 4-41grl7TT : trftzfr;7' TM: I of rupees and it will have to find the " rest of the four crores of rupees r 714q '71717:1197 q41 ,-t-IT. II from its own revenues. In this I should remodify it by saying state of affairs now, the Orissa Government, after half building its SHRI J. R. KAPOOR (Uttar Pra- capital, has almost given up the idea of desh): Please translate it in English. building it completely. Now it is in SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: I will after a state in which the secretariat is going I modify it myself: to be located in the new capital and the Ministers and all the other officers "q7aTzl7f1rT: crftel" Try : I are going to live in the old capital. The old plans have had to be dropped 911rSIT4T 4I II- H" and cheaper types of construction of "The Andhras run about hither the "frame" type have been adopted and thither bewildered, led by a to complete the whole scheme. I am '1297 Andhra State 5 SEP. 1953 Bill, 1953 1298 just giving this as an example of the about the disintegration of Hyderabad plight to which my Andhra friends which would solve this question once may be reduced if they expect too and for all? Is it because the Con- much money and rely too much upon gress Party fears that its sphere of the Centre as far as finances for•build- influence would be broken in the South ing a capital and other things are con- by this act or is it because of some cerned. The same is the case with soft corner in Dr. Katju's heart for Punjab which, after partition, needed His Exalted Highness no longer a capital and it has been building one exalted. ever since; the new capital La, been SHRI C. G. K. REDDY: Exhausted located at Chandigarh. But what Highness. He is no longer exalted. has been the contribution of the Centre towards the building of that MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, capital city? order. Now all these matters bring me to SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: One thins the care of the question. In such case which appears most strange and what is the solution of the present quite incomprehensible in my opinion situation with its various problems is that Dr. Katju has persistently that face this new province or rather avoided giving any directive in the this new State? In my opinion, if one matter of this demand for disintegra- gets down to brass tacks—and that is tion and has scrupulously avoided and what the present Government is most side-tracked the issue in his usual reluctant to do—the whole question of light-hearted and irrelevant manner. this capital construction, location of Even the Prime Minister on another capital, buildings, as well as the finan- occasion stated that the disintegration cial stability of Andhra and the legiti- of Hyderabad would be undesirable, mate aspirations of our Andhra unfortunate and injurious and would brethren for a Vishala Andhra would upset the whole structure of South have been solved if Dr. Katju had the India. But I wish to say that it is honesty and the boldness to concede neither the whim of Dr. Katju, nor of the disintegration of Hyderabad, de- Pandit Nehru, which is to decide the manded unanimously from all sections question of the disintegration of Hy- of this House and the other House derabad, and none can ride roughshod irrespective of party. And not only over public opinion for all time to that. It is a measure which is de- come, however dictatorial he may manded everywhere, practically think himself to be. It is not for us to throughout the country. decide the fate of Hyderabad but • it SHRI H. P. SAKSENA: "Boldness" I is only the people of Hyderabad who can understand, but "honesty" in the have the right to do so. The unholy sense in which you are doubting it, solicitude of the Central Government cannot understand. to save the Nizam and his likes from extinction, which they so richly de- SHRI C. G. K.REDDY: Intellectual serve, has no moral, legal or politi- honesty. cal justification. If we had no qualms SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: This would to sacrifice Hari Singh of Kashmir -not only have solved the question of who was India's friend, to please Andhra but would have solved the Abdullah, the trusted friend of the

-problem of linguistic States as a whole Prime Minister, why this hesitation south of the Vindhya Range. With about the Nizam who acted as the the disintegration of Hyderabad the enemy of India? I ask if it is not a question of Karnataka and Maha- fact that Hyderabad State did not rashtra would have to be simultane- accede to the Dominion of India along ously solved. Therefore the question with the other States of India and that

-that arises is: Why is the Govern- unlike the majority of the rulers of ment of India not doing the obvious India the Nizam not only defied but

-thing today and why is this hesitancy acted as an enemy of this Republic? 1299 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1300 SHRI H. P. SAKSENA: And he paid ed by the Constituent Assembly of heavily for it. India subject to ratification by the people of Hyderabad State whose will SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: By getting as expressed by the Constituent a privy purse and remaining installed Assembly of that State proposed to be or. his throne. Is it not a fact, Sir, I constituted shortly must finally deter- .vc, .)td -; know, that the Nizana mine the nature of the relationship has only come to his senses after the between Hyderabad and the Union cf police a_dc.n in Hyd^rabad? Is it not India as also of the constitution of also a fact that uze Nizam is morally the State itself? These are on pages and legally responsible for the Raza- 369-370 of the Hyderabad firman in kar atrocities in Hyderabad and the the White Paper on Indian States. subsequent loss of lives and property Let me now emphasise and remind due to the police action there? I would the House that this promise of the like to know from the Home Minister Nizam that the people of Hyderabad, if it is not a fact that the widespread through their Constituent Assembly, demand from all over India and also would not only determine from all over Hyderabad itself for the deposition of the Nizam and the aboli- AN HON. MEMBER: We are dis- tion of the rulership from Hyderabad cussing the Andhra Bill in the days preceding, during and subsequent to the police action were SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: Sir, this not listened to by the Government? is the key to the solution of the Andhra problem Again I would like to ask, Sir: Is it , not a fact that the Government of Mn. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You India repeatedly declared that the have already taken five minutes more. political future of the State and its relationship with India were matters SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: That the to be decided by the people of the State people of the Hyderabad State through themselves and that the State Legisla- their Constituent Assembly, would not ture on the basis of adult franchise only determine the nature of the re- was being constituted to enable the lationship between Hyderabad and people of the State to decide its own India, that is they will not only ratify political future? This is mentioned the present arrangement but also that in para. 222, page 113 of the White it was they and they alone who ought Paper on Indian States. to determine the constitution of Hy- derabad itself which included the con- My next question is: Is it not also tinuance of dynastic rule in Hydera- a fact that a Hyderabad firman—I bad. So, Sir, I would like to impress would like the Home Minister to take upon this House that in order to bring note of these questions of mine about a proper solution of Andhra and the problems that face her today SHRI C. G. K. REDDY: He is not in a realistic manner, the Government here. of India should first carry out a plebis- cite in Hyderabad and after the dis- SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: At least integration of that State, a part of it the Deputy Minister is there. should go to Andhra, and other parts of it should go to the other linguistic SHRI C. G. K. REDDY: Convenient- provinces of Karnataka and Maha- ly he is absent. rashtra to which they legitimately belong; then and then only can the SHRI P. C. BHANJ DEO: Is it not a real problem of Andhra be solved and fact that by the Hyderabad firman the Government will be able to dated the 23rd November 1949, the achieve it in a realistic manner. Other- Nizam provisionally accepted the Con- wise, future generations will pro- stitution of India shortly to be adopt. nounce the same judgment upon the -

1301 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1302 present Government as Macbeth pro- 1 consolidate our country and see how nounced on the quibbling witches: best we meet the democratic demands of every corner of our mother country "And be these juggling friends no India. The needs of the country must more believed, come first. Who palter with us in a double • sem , Suppose we abolished all the pro- Who keep the word of promise to vinces and had only Commissioner's ar ear, divisions throughout the country, what would be the position? We And break it to our hope." would save money on the army, on SHRIMATI ANGELINA TIGA. Governors and Ministers. Provincial 3ihar): Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, I Ministers have become satraps in their elcome the Bill for the creation of own areas. Is this democracy? Can ie Andhra State. The creation of the we afford to have expensive luxuries ndhra State is one of the most essen- of provincialism, linguistic provinces al items under the Congress Govern- and the like? ient which will be recorded in Indian story and will be remembered for Sir, I come from Jharkhand in ars to come. Bihar. Jharkhand means jungles and hills. We want Jharkhand to be a Sir, last year, when the Andhra separate administrative province. The solution was brought forth in this Planning Commission has dealt with igust House, the Government party the question of industrial development. Id many other members of the party I feel that an industrial province opposition out-voted it. The Andhra should be formed comprising of Chota ill struggled hard; they were per- Nagpur plateau, which is the richest Tering and achieved their long- repository of India and which is al- ierished purpose. Many of them sac- ready the centre of our heavy indus- ficed their lives to achieve the tries and which has two multi-purpose )al so much so that Sriramulu at last hydro-electric projects—the Damodar ad to sacrifice his life for the achieve- and the Hirakud projects. Of these, ent of the objective of the resolu- an industrial province should be form- .41n. So, on the 1st of October, there ed. There are several ways of achiev- will be the inauguration of the lin- ing this. Join South Bihar to Orissa. guistic Andhra State. Make one administrative unit of Sir, I congratulate them on their West Bengal, South Bihar and Orissa. endurance and perseverance. We I am not concerned with the details Indians have accepted Hindi as the of the areas. Once you accept that national language which embraces us there should be an industrial province all like our mother. But if we think you cannot run away from making of the linguistic divisions we will be Chota Nagpur plateau into a separate disunited and the country will be administrative province which is shattered and torn to pieces. Jharkhand. There are other considerations for Coming to a constructive suggestion, the creation of provinces. I for one I support the principle of the Andhra do not believe in the creation of Bill. The same may apply to Jar- provinces on the score of language khand. It is my greatest hope that alone. I believe in the creation of ad- Dr. Katju who is the Home Minister ministrative provinces which will in- of the present democratic Government clude language, history, geography, will take not a quick but the quickest • strategy and lots of other things. Let steps for the creation of an adminis- us free ourselves from the provincial trative and industrial province in boundaries of the British regime. The Jharkhand which includes language, British had their own purpose to serve. history geography, sategy and lots of Now they are gone, and we must other things. A Andhra State 1303 [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1 304 SHRI R. M. DESHMUKH (Madhya everything that you say is very well, Pradesh): Mr. Deputy Chairman, I but you must remember that the welcome this Bill for more reasons unity of the country must not be than one. I have always held the view affected" is carrying coal to New- that there can be and there will be no castle. I do not think that anybody peace, and there will be no settling will doubt the capacity of the persons • down to the constructive work that is from the South to have the same love required for the building up of this for the country as anybody in the nation, in the south of the Satpuras so-called uni-lingual provinces. until and unles stisfactory linguistic provinces are established. I think, Sir, I am sorry to find that in this Sir, that the question of linguistic pro- respect the ideas of the Home :Ain's- vinces cannot be dealt with in the ter, who spoke here the other day, piecemeal manner in which this Bill were rather in a fluid state, not only tries to do. I will, however, congratu- in a fluid state but, to my mind, in late the Andhras for the adoption of a dangerous state. I do feel that if another doctrine in which I have be- we, in the process of formation of the lieved; and that is the doctrine of the linguistic provinces, leave a lot of late Lokamanya Tilak, that you must what I may call terra irridenta or get what you can and fight for more. leave a considerable number of enclav- I am glad that the Andhras have shown es here and there, or create islands, the sagacity to accept what they could which might be looked upon as the get for the time being. territory of one or the other, I am afraid we are not trying to establish There were, Sir, many difficulties in a sort of a province that can settle the way. I cannot help thinking that down to its work peacefully, adjust- in the process of the formation of the ing both with itself and with the struc- Andhra State, if a more—shall I say — ture of the country as a whole. After reasonable policy had been adopted, all, Sir, what is our reason for the the sacrifice of a very great life, much love of these provinces as they are? of the sacrifices in other matters, much And what is it that makes the multi- of the damage in respect of property, lingual provinces superior in any res- much of the sacrifice in respect of feel. pect to the uni-lingual provinces? ings and sentiments and much of the As I said, they are no super incubators bitterness in consequence, could have of nationalism or of unity. To try been avoided. The trouble is that we to maintain them as they were found have never been, in the south of the when the British left, indicates a sort Satpuras, able to understand why lin- of a static state of mind, a static atti- guistic provinces any more than other tude towards the problems of the coun- uni-lingual provinces are said to be try, and I do not think that that is working to the detriment of this coun- desirable. try. It has been a puzzle for us. Why is it that a multi-lingual province is What holds good about the multi- supposed to foster a feeling of unity lingual provinces in the South holds for the country better than—or even good about the Nizam also. I would equal to—a uni-lingual province? try to deal with both of them sepa- It seems to me that the two things are rately. What has happened in the quite independent of *each other and multi-lingual provinces? The con- the multi-lingual ppvinces are no cept of unity in the multi-lingual incubators of nationalism or incubators ' provinces has in no way worked to of unity. I am afraid, Sir, there is the detriment of the loyalty to the some confusion, some confusion of country as a whole. Nor have uni- ideas, somewhere, that needs to lingual provinces promoted it to any be cleared. Preaching to the people in exceptional degree. Is it necessary the South and saying "Oh, yes, linguis- that people who do not wish to re- tic provinces are all very well; admi- main together, feel a sense of oppres- nistrative units are very well and sion by their enforced association, in 13•5 Andhra State [ 5 SEP • 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1306

-what they consider to be unnatural of the unity of India. South of the provinces must be forced to remain Satpuras I hope we are consi- together. Is it necessary for the unity dered to be normal men. Nobody is of the country or the promotion of so dense as not to realise that howso- the welfare of this country that they ever powerful a province may be, it can must be kept in this enforced asso- never become powerful enough to ciation? overthrow the country and to carve out an independent nation that way. I am surprised, Sir, that a lot of I hope, Sir, that nobody considers lingual energy has been expended in that we have such fantastic dreams. finding various labels for advocates of Therefore to my mind there is no linguistic provinces. Provincialism is justification for or reason to be one such label thrown at us. Well, frightened by these slogans that have Sir, I believe that a certain amount of been created especially for the bene- 'provincialism must exist when you fit of those who advocate linguistic have the provinces. If you really provinces. I shall just refer to the object to the word "provincialism" or latest invention of this lingual fri- the words "provincial feelings", well, volity. Somebody has said that this then the answer is abolish the pro- is tribalism. Sir, it is too contemp- vinces. Then nobody would want a tible to be taken notice of. There- linguistic province. But that provin- fore I shall not take more time in cialism is generated in a uni- dealing with frivolities like this. lingual province and is not generated in a multi-lingual province that is a Sir, there is no reason to suppose proposition, Sir, that I cannot accept. that, if the country is re-arranged on I cannot honestly say that I have a linguistic basis, anything serious is understood the full import of another going to happen. Such fears are com- label "linguism", but linguism does pletely unfounded. The only serious take the shape within boundaries of difficulty that I can think of, about multi-lingual provinces, and what the rearrangement of provinces, is the existence of Hyderabad. But I do happens is that linguistic majorities are formed, and if such majorities not see why it should be a problem come into power, this gives a sense of any more. During the British days the Nizam's Dominions were con- 'oppression, rightly or waingly—I am not going to enter into its merits sidered to be the property of the Nizam. Now that is over. The just at this stage—but it does give Nizam is merely a Rajpramukh, and a sense of oppression to those who he does not any longer rule over the are the minorities in those multi- destinies of the people of Hyderabad. lingual provinces. And that is why If that is so, I do not think that any all this trouble has come. The sentiment for the Nizam should be sooner, thekefore, we give up these catch-words and catch-phrases and allowed to stand in the way of the exchange them for something like expressed will of the people of those areas. If the Andhras there want to go solid ideas, the better it will be for us. to Andhra Desh, I do not see any serious objection to it. Why obstruct Then, Sir, there is another very it in the name of the Nizam? If the serious thing often said in this Nizam is to be maintained, may I matter. That is the idea implied in say, as an international show-piece, the word separatism. I cannot under- we can still maintain him with all stand any comparison being made His Exaltedness and Rajpramukh- between a person wanting a linguistic ship included. If he were to be re- province and a person wanting a tained merely as His Exalted Highness separate nation with full-fledged the Rajpramukh without any ref- sovereignty. Not even the wildest of erence to Hyderabad State, that will advocates of linguistic provinces be nothing new within the experience have, even in their dream, ever of the Nizam. For the last one hinted that they want the break-up hundred years almost, the Nizam has 1307 Andhra State [ COUNCIL I Bill, 1953 130g [Shri R. M. Deshmukh.] ous future and are not going to make been theoretically the sovereign of for peace. The sooner we make up the districts of Berar from which I our minds about not creating these come, without having even an ounce the better. of authority, without even having a shadow of a hand in the adminis- I do not however subscribe to the tration. Recently he had invested suggestion made here that at the sug- himself with the glorious title of gestion of every little difference you must have a plebiscite. "The Nizam of Hyderabad and 12 NOON. Berar". He also got some satisfac- After all, we have good tion by calling his first son "The enough census figures. Why a Prinee of Berar" for which he could Boundary Commission? A few clerks move about in a motor vehicle with sitting together with the census re- a red number plate "Berar" which, ports can draw up reasonable boun- of course, is not recognised under the daries. After all, we are not having Motor Vehicles Act. If that is the state a partition of the country in the sense of affairs and if this is what the Ni-tam that one must have strategic points is accustomed to, well, let us leave for defence, or have natural bounda- him with all his titles of His Exalted ries and things like that. This is Highness the Rajpramukh of Hy- purely an administrative arrange- derabad or even of the whole of ment, because we are now abolishing India for that matter. To that, I the English language and some people see no serious objection, but is it are in the most desperate huay abut necessary that he should have any it, it has become urgent and ricto^sary, connection with any territorial ad- You cannot get the co-operation of the ministration? I do not think it is people unless you talk to them in their necessary at all. There are and have own language. To my mind, this is been many "His Highnesses" without the biggest justification for the forma- any connection with any territory. tion of linguistic proviinces without the This is a solution. If els necessary slightest delay. The more delays we to maintain the Nizam, as I said, as have, the worse it will be for us from an international show-piece, do it, this angle. In adjustment of bounda- but why obstruct the will of the ries, I want to mention panic? 'arly people from taking effect because of that we must lay aside our prejudices, one person, whose only reason for for instance, if tomorrow the Boundary existence is that we have tolerated Commission says and I know it that him and we have shown him more for adjustment of the boundaries of indulgence than he deserves? After Andhra State a certain portion of all, what has the Nizam done to earn Madhya Pradesh will have to go—a our gratefulness? certain portion of Baster will have to go into Andhra State—I shall be most Firstly, the Nizam would not accede willing to make that contribution to to India. He made the largest obs- Andhra. I beg of everybody in a truction in accession. The Nizam gave similar position that they should with- us a sample of air-lift for gun-run- out hesitation make their contribution ning from foreign countries. The to the formation of the Andhra State. Nizam gave us a sample of what the British wished would happen all over the country when the British Then there is only one point I wish left and revolted. I do not think we to say in connection with the question have any reason to be grateful to the of assets and liabilities. I think the Nizam. I do not think that the consi- principles, as laid down in the Bill, are deration that we are showing him is as good as they can be and they have well deserved. been extensively discussed here. So I shall not take up the time of the As I have already said, enclaves House in that but there is one variety or islands or pieces of terra irridenta of assets created in recent years that left all over are going to make danger- does need consideration. Because of 1309 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1310 the delay in the formation of linguis- of its application to Andhra, tic provinces, the persons in authority should be borne by the Centre. As a from lingual groups have been trying general tax-payer of this country, I to create special assets in recent years. must enter a very strong caveat This is by incurring c: new capital ex- against that doctrine. After all, if there penditure in their own pa_ icular areas have been acts of commission and only for the last 5 or 10 years. I don't omission and th : •^an et be cured in want to dig up the grave of 100 years a norma' mai t the.:e is no reason ago and say that all this must be total- why the entire country .-hould•be re- led up and balan.....! struck, but I do quired to pay for it. -It is a yue, ion feel that when somebody, because he which may arise in the case of every- happens to be in authority, deli- body and anybody and it is not a ques- berately creates assets with a view to tion which can be settled on that basis. get more than their due and knowing That indeed is an over-simplification full well the formula that the assets of the solution with which I don't will go with the land, then those assets agree. should not be permitted to be kept without compensation to those areas So much has been said about what that don't have it fair. I am not say- Dr. Ambecikar said. Therefore I will ing, when I say this, that this is what not take the time of the House except has happened in Madras State, but I for a few sentences, viz., that as a do certainly say that this happened in Member of the Backward Classes I my province. have a certain amount of sympathy with all that he apprehends, but then I welcome this Bill for one reason his solution that it has opened up a way along which we on our part hope to find our DR. SHRIMATI SEETA PARMANAND own solution some day and therefore I (Madhya Pradesh) : Since when have am looking along that road very hope- the Marathas been classed as backward fully. I am therefore looking ahead classes? This is news to me. and saying that when the assets do come to be taken into con4ideration, (Interruption.) these special types of assets which I may call for the sake of convenience of description are "anticipatory assets" SHRI R M. DESHMUKH: My hon. must be taken into consideration for lady friend should study her own cen- compensation. That being my view, sus figures, her own literature and I should have tabled some kind of an learn percentages of literacy of various amendment, but I am prepared to classes and the like, then question me. rest content with the President's power The backward classes have certain and only me_ tion it so that it should disabilities about which it is natural come to the notice of Government that that Dr. Arribedkar should be anxious. such assets do exist which also But Governor's responsibility is no need to be taken into account solution for it. After all, Governor's and that when the time comes responsibility existed before and in rne President's power has to be utiliz- one instance in our own province, the ed for the purpose of correction. Governor's responsibility came into conflict with the Ministers of the Then there was a proposition enun- Ministry in which I happened to be a ciated here on the floor of this House Member and the Transferred Depart- that all the ills of commission and ments were suspended for six months, omission, supposed or alleged, for but ultimately it was not the Ministers which the Andhra Prov!nce has suffer- but the Governor who had to yield. ed and I suppose that formula will No sensible Governor in possession of apply to all provinces and therefore his senses is going to fight with any I take it in a general sense really popular Ministry. The Minis- and not in the particular sense tries in those days were very much 1311 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1312

[Shri R. M. Deshmukh.] Vidarbha advocates have sometimes weaker and the Ministries in those declared and said is that the forma- days were not as the Ministries are tion of Maha Vidarbha they consider today or are likely to be tomorrow. If to be a first step towards the forma- a weak Ministry like that could fight tion of Maharashtra. Therefore not _against the strength of the Governor even the most ardent advocate of at its full pitch and make him yield, Maha Vidarbha maintains that a big- -what results does Dr. Ambedkar expect ger province shall not be formed. So from the special responsibility in the far as the differences in the way ,Constitution to be worked in the future of the formation of the bigger Maha- I cannot understand. rashtra province are concerned, I can assure the Home Minister that no dif- ferences, no difficulties are likely to Before I conclude I must say some- be beyond the ingenuity of the Mara- thing about what I learnt the Home thas as a whole to solve. And if that Minister said in the other House. I satisfies the Home Minister I shall be am in a way anticipating what he very happy and be completely satis- might say here because he did not fied. Sir, Maha Vidarbha is not to be mention it in his first speech. I am understood in the context of opposi- anticipating it because if he mentions tion to Maharashtra, but in the con- it in his concluding speech, I shall have lost my right of making a reply. text of _ their intense desire to sepa- rate from Mahakoshal and when one He said something about a view exist- gets that clearly, I think, one will ing about Maha Vidarbha. The idea not be misled any longer as to the correct appears to have tickled him that diff- position prevailing there. , erences existed amongst the Marathas also. I don't think the Home Minister need take such pleasure in small questions like that. He has evidently In the end, I would like to say that had an informer who might have said we should give unto the Andhras what certain things—there might be many belongs to the Andhras; do not make sources of information of the Home unnecessary difficulties, do not raise Minister which might, I say, be taint- needless nightmares. Do not let pres- ed and might be giving information tige, either of our own or somebody which might be misleading, might be else's like that of the Nizam or any leading him into an error. Therefore one else's, come in the way of the for- I thought it necessary to correct a mation of the natural linguistic ar- misimpression, if there be any. No- rangement of the south of India. I wish body, not even the most ardent of the Andhras every prosperity. I wish advocates of Maha Vidarbha—let it be them every success, and I say "God clear to the hon. Home Minister— be with you" for you will need Him. wishes that the Marathi portion of Maha Vidarbha, as it is a convenient ,description applied to the Marathi areas now included in Madhya Pra- SHRT S. BANERJEE (West Bengal): desh, wants the present association Mr. Deputy Chairman, I thank you in one province to continue. If I may for having given me the opportunity he permitted to use an extreme ex- even at this late hour to speak a few pression, they would rather go to hell words about this Bill. Yesterday, I than be where they are. So let that had occasion to use some harsh words first point be noted very clearly. with regard to the present Government. But my eyes are not so blind as not to see the good deeds done by the Gov- The seccnd point is that not even ernment. My ears are not so deaf as the most ardent of advocates of Maha not to hear the good words coming Vidarbha has ever advocated that he from the Government. My heart is does not want a bigger Maharashtra not so hard as not to respond to the province. The utmost that the Maha sympathetic gestures on the part of the 1313 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 Bill, 1953 1314 Government. My tongue is not so and six Kannada-speaking taluks tied as not to utter some good words should form part of the Mysore in giving the Government "js due; State;" and my hands are not so fettered as not to embrace even an evil Govern- What else is this but the acceptance ment -when out of that evil good of the formation of the States on lin- con.eth. guistic basis? I welcome this Bill because it holds within it the cre- ation of, or rather the restoration of, Sir, I welcome this Bill. But I the Bengali-speaking areas of Bihar would have been even more glad if to Bengal, the areas that Bengal lost this Bill had come a little earlier with to Bihar as a result of the annulment good grace from the Government. in 1911 of the Partition of Bengal of After a long, meandering, tortuous 1905. Those parts did really belong course, the people of Andhra began to Bengal and the leaders of the then their arduous journey in 1913 and had Bihar were very anxious to restore to wade through a sea of blood, toil, them to Bengal; but circumstances sweat and tears before they reached intervened which did not allow this their provisional destination. I say consummation so devoutly wished provisional because the final goal is for to take place. Justice, though yet to come. During that journey belated, has to be done to Bengal. they lost many of their comrades. And Bengal will not rest till justice They had to undergo great sufferings is done. and sacrifices. And lastly came the martyrdom, self-immolation and self- Many of the speakers here referred sacrifice of Shri Potti Sriramulu, that to the speech of Dr. Ambedkar who, great, valiant and noble patriot, on after a long period of absence, made which this State of Andhra is going his appearance only perhaps to speak to be founded. on this Bill. And an interesting speech it was, interesting to me at least, for one reason, namely, that was a speech Sir, I welcome this Bill because it in which he blew both hot and cold supports the formation of linguistic in the same breath. In the beginning provinces. Although Dr. Katju, the of his speech, he criticised the Gov- Minister for Home Affairs, while ernment, he condemned the Govern- moving for consideration of the Bill, ment for not having implemented the was very jubilant at the comments principle they had accepted in the made at his not mentioning the words year 1921, the principle of the consti- "linguistic provinces" in the State- tution of the provinces of India on a ment of Objects and Reasons attached language basis. And in the end he to this Bill, he was very much mis- said. "Linguism breeds communa- taken because he had to accept it as lism." Sir, linguism does not breed a fact. Let me read out that portion communalism, it is an antidote to it. from the Statement of Objects and The one thing that breeds communa- Reasons: "the Government of India lism is the reactionary attitude of a had decided to establish an Andhra section of the people of India and the State consisting of the Telugu-speaking propaganda emanating from that at- areas of the present Madras State." titude. What . else does this mean if not a lin- guistic State? What else does it mean Rayalaseema, Sir, also deserves our other than the acceptance of the prin- attention. The people of Rayalaseema ciple of language in the matter of the say that they have been very niggard- constituting the provinces? Later ly treated. Otherwise the immense - on, it says: mineral resources of Rayalaseema would have been developed. I hope "three of the ten taluks should and trust that now that Andhra has form part of the Andhra State been created into a separate State, 1315 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1316 [Shri S. Banerjee.] with the Andhra Bill. If you raise the Centre as well as the State of that point of view, our Bihar friends Andhra will see their way to develop will come up. Rayalaseema in all its fullness—Raya- laseema which is rich in pyrites, SHRI S. BANERJEE: Sir, I fully bauxite. copper and many other mine- realise it. I am speaking of the con- rals. ditions of the States of India on a language basis. I am making only Sir, the appointed day on which a passing reference to Bengal. How- this Andhra State is coming into be- ever, I how down to your ruling, Sir. ing is the 1st of October—a day me- morable in the history of humanity MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please in general and to Asiatic humanity confine your remarks to the Bill before in particular. On this very day the us. New China of Mao Tse-Tung was inaugurated; and let us all hope that SHRI S. BANERJEE: Sir, the high the new State of Andhra which is power Commission which, as has been going to be inaugurated on the 1st announced by the Home Minister, is of October 1953 will grow to a stature to be appointed before the end of similar to that of New China of Mao this year will go into the whole ques- Tse-Tung—it may be with the help of tion of redistribution of areas and the Centre, it may be without it if boundaries on the language basis and necessary because. I feel that the pro- I hope this Commission will give gressive sections of the people of An- due consideration to the views of that dhra will see their way to develop portion of India which has been now Andhra in such a way as to excite not called West Bengal and would see only the admiration but the envy of that those areas which belonged to the Centre and other States. , Bengal were restored to her.

Corning as I do from Bengal, may I welcome this Bill precisely because I read out before you what I said in it opens out to the people of Bengal connection with the resolution of the the opportunity to have those portions 16th July 1952, moved by my friend restored to them. Shri Venkat Narayana which was Thank you, Sir. negatived by the brute majority of the House? SHRI 0. SOBHANI (Hyderabad): Mr. Deputy Chairman, I rise to sup- i t I will make a passing re- port this Bill and to wish Godspeed ference to that part of India which to my friends from Andhra. I wish I have the honour and privilege to them all the luck and I hope that all represent here, I mean West Bengal. the parties will unite to develop the Sir, after the annulment of the par- industries, the mines, the river val!ey tition of Bengal of 1905 and its projects and the railway system of consequent re-partition in 1911, Ben- Andhra which will eventually result gal lost some portions of its Ben- in raising Andhra to the level of gali-speaking areas to Bihar. This one of the most prosperous States fresh injustice to Bengal was stoutly in the country. I know, Sir, that the opposed by the then leaders of State of Andhra including Rayala- Bihar and they were determined seema has got magnificient minerals to see that justice was done by get- which unfortunately have been negkse- ting the Bengali-speaking areas for- ted; but I do hope that all wffl unite merly belonging to Bengal transfer- and the Central Government will give red to here." that State all the help that may be I only repeat what I said then. necessary to develop those resources. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sir, friends have regretted that the Banerjee, we are concerned primarily creation of the State of Andhra was 1317 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1318 delayed and have expessed a wish years ago, there was no such feeling that it should have come before the as Andhras or Kannadigas or Maha- supreme sacrifice of Potti Sriramulu. rashtrians or Muslims or any other. They have also attacked the party in It is most unfortunate that about power and the Prime Minister for the twenty-five years ago communal orga- delay. Sir, may I respectfully remind nisations were started to destroy that them that the J.V.P. report was there cultural harmony that e xisted in the and if friends had only agreed to ac- State of Hyderabad. Sir, I mourn for cept its recommendations, the Andhra the Hyderabad of Maharaja Kishen ,State might have come into existence Pershad, Saler Jung and Swargavasi much earlier. Sir, during the last Sarojini Naidu. year and a half, I found that friends on my right felt that every stick was SHRI P. SUNDARAYYA: What good enough to beat the party in about the Nizam? power. Well, if that is their attitude then their contribution to the rehabili- SHRI 0. SOBHANI: I am coming tation of this country is bound to be to that. rather small. I do hope, Sir, that they will give credit where credit is due. In those days, we celebrated each Of course, they may blame the party other's festivals. The Holi parties at in power wherever necessary but not Raja Pratapgir's kothi are still fresh all the time; they should not harp on in my mind. Rich and poor, Hindus the same subject and condemn the and Muslims, Kannadigas, Andhras, party in power even if they do some- Maharashtrians and all niixed with thing that is good. each other and celebrated the Holi, the Id and various other festivals with- Sir, reference, has been made to out' the slightest differentiation. Sir, :absence of linguism in the Statement Hyderabad is not a mere dot on the of Objects and Reasons. I feel, Sir, map of India. Only the other day our that the Home Minister could not have Prime Minister talked about our com- acted otherwise than he has done in mon heritage of culture. Sir, after view of the resolution on the subject Delhi and Lucknow if there is any of re-organisation of States that was place where you may yet find a festi- passed by the Congress at Hyderabad. val of cultures it is Hyderabad and The resolution laid down that the before you tear up Hyderabad into Congress was not opposed to a review bits on account of your political ambi- of the situation as far as the distribu- tions, please bear that factor in mind. tion of States was concerned, but that Sir, where is the question of any deci- reorganisation shall not take place sion on Hyderabad at this juncture? merely on the ground of linguism; The Prime Minister has announced other factors will be taken into con , that an all-India Boundary Commis- sideration. Therefore, there could be sion is to be appointed. When that no question of laying undue empha- Commission visits Hyderabad or calls sis on the fact that this State was be- for evidence, I am sure, the people of ing created merely on a linguistic Hyderabad will come forward and 'basis. give expression to their opinions not merely because people in Aurangabad Sir, there is no mention of Hydera- speak in one language or the people bad in this Bill and yet representa- in Warangal or Nalgunda speak tives of Andhra, Maharashtra, Karna- another language or the people in Rai- taka and even Bengal and Orissa chur speak Kanarese. There are seve- have gone out of their way to drag ral economic factors which the Com- Hyderabad into this debate. Sir, I do mission will have to take into consi- not hold any brief on either this side deration. or the other. I represent Hyderabad

-which consists of Andhras, Kannadi- Sir, while reading a report of a gas, Maharashtrians. They are all speech delivered by a Member in the Mulkis. Stir, upOir to about twenty-five other House, I came across a passage 1319 Andhra State COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1320 [Shri 0. Sobhani.] SHRI 0. SOBHANI: It was not an which advised people not to ask for a anti-national movement. The people plebiscite as far as Bellary was con- of a State may legitimately feel that cerned. He said, "If you ask for a as far as the administrative posts in plebiscite in Beltary you won't get their State are concerned, they must Hyderabad " I do not know why he have a certain amount of preference. said that. He added, "There are 55 I am merely trying to explain the per cent. Muslims in Hyderabad and point of view, Sir, that Hyderabadis therefore you will lose Hyderabad. were a homogeneous people. About I may tell the House 25 years ago we had no distinction of colour, caste, creed or religion and I DR. K. N. KATJU: Can we discuss would like that state of affairs to recur the speeches delivered in the other and I would appeal to all the people, House here? whether they belong to this community or the other, to try and create that SHRI 0. SOBHANI: Only to develop feeling of homogeneity in Hyderabad my point I referred to that. Many and alt over India. Let us think as Hon. Members have been talking Indians—not as Andhras or as Tamili- about Hyderabad all the time although ans or as Hyderabadis or Maharashtri- the Bill under consideration is the ans. Andhra State Bill, and while talking about Hyderabad, in my turn, I Sir, I do not hold any brief for the referred to a speech delivered Rajpramukh, but I recall that about the other House to develop my three years ago we all paid our tribute it. to Swargavasi Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel for having solved this question want to make it clear that it is of Indian States in a most admirable one community or the other that is fashion. Friends could not have for- avour of disintegration of Hydera- gotten that when we talked about in- L. Today there are Muslims who dependence the British always said, t that Hyderabad should be the "Yes, yes, that is all right, but what ital of Andhra. There are other about the States?" When the British ple who say 'No'. There are non- went, the late Sardar in a very small slims who feel that the Mulkis, period ot time solved that question Hyderabadis as a whole, will and fulfilled your hopes. And today 'er if Hyderabad is divided into if you feel that you want to do away harashtra and Andhra and Karna- with the Rajpramukhs, I have no ob- a. (Interruption.) jection. But I must remind the House that in the last session the Prime Mi- omebody asks me what I mean by nister made a statement and he said Mulki movement. The Mulki that it would be odd if you made cer- Ten-lent, Sir, was started by the tain agreements with the Princes ple of Hyderabad against the Mus- three or four years ago and now said, s from Northern India who came in "We will tear them up." But if you early part of the twentieth century fee] that undue haste was exercised in occupied various offices. It was making certain commitments 't. lo the ely a matter of loaves and fishes. Princes or the Rajpramukhs, by all ple of Hyderabad felt that they means appoint a Commission to review 'e able to govern, they were able those agreements, amend them or hold high offices and also many scrap them, as you like. But this is •ical offices and there was no reason no occasion for mixing up issues. 7

HRI P. SUNDARAYYA: Preserve Sir, there is one thing about the local Muslim offices. district of Bellary. A Judge of the eminence of the hon. Mr. Misra went [R. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is there, examined several witnesses, .de the point. looked at the census report and so on 1321 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1322 and finally recommended that certain their empire to Maharashtra and we division should be made. It seems no- are glad that those who were once body is satisfied with it. Well, a for- ruling us are forming themselves mula which satisfies nobody into a separate State. SHRI K. S. HEGDE: You are not Now the Andhra Bill which is the correct. They have all accepted it. first Bill after independence, will All Kannadigas have accepted it. pave the way for the other States to have linguistic provinces. I welcome SHRI 0. SOBHANI: Andhras have this Bill because it has given us an not accepted it. opportunity to express our thoughts on SHRI C G. K. REDDY: That is not States in India in general and linguis- exactly true. tic States in particular. Somehow an impression is being created that those Sum O. SOBHANI: There has been who are demanding linguistic States agitation. are unpatriotic; that they are lacking The hon. the Home Minister the in patriotism; they are narrow in their other day said that he had received outlook and they are sinners. I am 50 telegrams one day from the people really sorry to hear all sorts of in Bellary that Bellary district should motives attributed to them. I fail to go to the Andhra and on the next day understand why the demand for lin- he had received 50 telegrams guistic States which was once consi- dered proper and just has come now to SHRI K. S. HEGDE: It is about Bel- assume a different colour. The land is lary town and not Bellary district. the same, the people are the same, but the situation is improved; and the SHRI O. SOBHANI: I hope that peo- ple will accept the decision of the High Command ought to have un- grudgingly and gracefully granted the hon. Mr. Justice Misra because there demand for linguistic States. Instead must be some finality to questions of this type and we should not go on of that we are told that the time is not opportune; we are reminded wrangling. If people had accepted the that separation of Andhra without Madras fissiparous tendencies will grow; we are threatened with economic break- we might have had the province of Andhra much earlier. Thereflore I down of a new State and a fear is would appeal to them now—it may be shown so big that it will endanger the partial to this side or that, with which security of this country. Keeping view I do not agree and I do not say aside all these considerations, I would so—I think it is as impartial an award like to ask the Government to look at as it is possible under the circumstan- the structure of India as a whole. Are ces but whatever it may be, in the they satisfied with the present greater interests of a suitable and structure? Do they think that the prosperous Andhra, all should accept States in India are strong and it. Sir, I support the Bill. sturdy? Look at the geography of each State. A State like Delhi SHRI T. R. DEOGIRIKAR: Mr. or Bilaspur, it must be remem- Deputy Chairman, Sir, I give my bles- bered, has only an area of about 500 sings to the new State of Andhra that square miles, whereas the biggest State is coming into existence. in India, Madhya Pradesh, is one lakh and thirty thousand square miles in Sir, the Andhraraj and the Maharash- area. Look at the population. The traraj are connected in ways more smallest State, Coorg, has a popula- than one. The Krishna and the Goda- tion of 2 lakhs and Uttar Pradesh has vari rivers that take their rise from a population of 6 crores and 32 lakhs. Maharashtra feed the Andhra pro- Thus from the point of view of area, vince. In a way we are water-brothers. the smallest and the biggest States Then there is another thing. At one are in the proportion of 1 : 250; and time the Andhra rulers had extended from the point of view of population, it 65 Cof SD 1323 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1324 [Shri T. R. Deogirikar.] Most of the States in the north, I may is 1 : 300. That is the present state of say all the States in the north, are affairs. Now, take into consideration formed upon the linguistic basis. I do the per capita income, the per capita not want to disturb that basis. But I production. It differs sharply from want to say that some of the States State to State. The economic condi- which are unwieldy should be split up. tion of one State is not the same as I am not afraid that if we divide that of the other. An average man of these States there will be trouble new one State does not at all compare with as there was at the time of the parti- the average man of another State. tion of Bengal. We have paid heavily for restoring the partition of Bengal Some of the States are spending and for the formation of the States enormously on education while other of Sind and the North-West Frontier. States are spending sparingly on edu- Sir, there is no other basis in cation. I expected that the Planning India for the formation of States Commission would plan something for except the linguistic one. I do not the uniform or substantially uniform understand what is bad in the linguis- growth of the various States in this tic States. We cannot have industry- country. Unfortunately, they have not wise, or agriculturewise or castewise or clone so. I therefore feel that the communitywise States in this country. planning will not be as successful as These linguistic States are not danger- it is expected to be. A high power ous so long as they do not try to domi- Commission is being appointed. I nate either the Centre or other States. welcome the Commission. But the I can remind the House how the States high power Commission will neither grew. The Britishers in those days be high nor powerful if it does not went on acquiring one territory after raise the various States to a height another, and as a new territory was and to a certain power. Personally acquired, it was added on to the pre- I am opposed to all Part C States. The viously acquired one. Thus the earlier they are abolished, the better growth of the Indian States has become it will be. like the growth of a dung-hill. We DR. K. N. KATJU: Which, B or C? must do away with this thing. Dr. Ambedkar says that he is SHRI T. R. DEOGIRIKAR: Part C for the continuance of the multi- States. Instead of abolishing them, lingual States, if the Governors are we are reading in today's newspapers given certain powers for the safeguard that some arrangements are being made of minorities. I do not agree with him. to give more powers to Part C States. I personally know that the greatest So, my first submission to the high blot on our Constitution is the con- power Commission, that is proposed to tinuance of these Governors. I want be appointed, will be to abolish and these Governors, these Rajpramulths, integrate these Part C States with the these Lieutenant Governors and Chief adjoining areas. Some of the big Part Commissioners to be removed from B States also should be integrated with our Constitution. Make it a perfectly the neighbouring big States. democratic one. What guarantee can there be for the protection of minori- MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You ties? Democracy is the greatest guar- may place these views before the high antee or the greatest safeguard for the power Commission, Mr. Deogirikar. minorities. Dr. Ambedkar suggested that the Constitution should be burnt. SHRI T. R. DEOGIRIKAR: Whether I would like to know from him whether we like it or not, the re-suffle of he wants to burn each and every page some Part A States is also essential. of the Constitution, or he wants to per- Will it not be necessary, I ask, for the form this ceremony by separating one high power Commission to reorganise article from the other and then burn the Indian States on a scientific basis? it, Is he going to celebrate that func- ,325 Andhra State [ 5 SEP. 1953 ] Bill, 1953 1326 lion at a private place or at a public would be in favour of linguistic States. „place?-

AN HoN. MEMBER: At India Gate. The dictionary meaning of "linguis- tic States" is very innocent. Sir, "lin- Saar T. R. DEOGIRIKAR: I would gua" means tongue, and "linguistic - tell him, Sir, that if our Constitution States" would mean "tongue States". is a golden one, it will be purified and The tongue can at the most prattle, will become more resplendent in the but it cannot bite. And in many instances fire. If on the other hand, our Con- we find that Mr. Head and Mrs. Tongue stitution is bad, some dictator will do not go together. So, we need not -emerge, some demon will come out and be afraid of the prattling lady who - he will have a hammer and sickle in speaks without being controlled by the tone hand and a hydrogen bomb in the head. I therefore say that not only other. Are we prepared for that? Sir, we but nobody need be afraid about _I do not agree with what Dr. Ambed- these linguistic States which are being kar said on that point. demanded by many of us. I said that Then he said that linguism is loaded the linguistic States were formed as with community. Why only lin- soon as one territory was acquired .:guism? Every man is ,loaded with after another. I give the instance of community. You look to any person Bengal. Bihar and Orissa and Chota- In the world and you will not find N4gpur. That was one province .a single man who has no community formerly. So was Bombay. Bombay .at all unless you go to a jungle, but, consisted of Sind, Gujerat, Maharash- •even there, there will be a jungle tra and Karnatak. But whereas Bengal, community. Sir, I do not agree with Bihar and Orissa were separated, :him on that point also. I simply say 1 pm. Bombay continued to be that there is nothing bad in caste, there the same until 1935, when is nothing bad in community, there is Sind was separated. I do not nothing bad in language, but there is understand what difference the

, everythling bad in casteism, there is Britishers saw between the Kannadiga -everything bad in communalism and speaking Kanarese and the Sindhi there is everything bad in linguism. So speaking the Sindhi language. The ob-

- we must avoid all these evils. He ject of the British Government in or-

- further said that linguism was synony- ganising the States in India was mis- mous with communalism. I know in chievous. They wanted to keep the Bombay there are about two lakhs of Centre strong and to keep the units Parsis who are different in religion. weak. We on the other hand want to but they are speaking the Gujarati make the Centre strong, not by keep- language as others. Some of the ing the units weak but by making Mohammedans are speaking the them strong. That is the difference be- "Bengali language in Pakistan. There- tween the former States of India and fore, I do not accept the proposition the States that we are aiming at. I that linguism is synonymous with come from Bombay. The reformation communalism. Then he said something of the Bombay State is long overdue. about the Constitution of Canada. But Somehow or other, the Kannadigas do he has forgotten that the Constitution not feel happy in the composite State. of Canada is a Dominion Constitution. We, Maharashtrians also, though we In Canada, the French Catholics and are not a minority, do not feel happy the English Protestants were fighting there. This is our natural sentiment. for three hundred years and the Con- We do not want to dominate over any- stitution-framing body in Canada was one, but we do feel that those who sitting for more than thirty years to speak the Marathi language should come to an agreement. Are we going some together not for the purpose of to imitate them? I am glad, however, weakening the Centre but for to find that ultimately he said that if strengthening it. Some people asked the safeguards were not granted, he me whether I wanted Bombay or not. 1327 Andhra State [ COUNCIL ] Bill, 1953 1328.; [Shri T. R. Deogirikar.] posite States. I think the other day I say, "If Bombay is not going to Dr. Katju said that in Bombay there

Maharashtra, where else can it go?" ( was a mixed population. What can we do? There are two lakhs of Parsis, SEMI B. C. GHOSE (West Bengal): there are two lakhs of Sindhis, there To Gujarat. are two lakhs of Bhaiyas and so on, . but Bombay belongs to the Maharash- SHRI T. R. DEOGIRIKAR: Will it go trians. There is absolutely no doubt to some other country which is not about it. But after having said all part of India? You see the danger of this, let me state that I am not en- this logic. Why not have the city of amoured of this high power Commis- Madras as a separate autonomous sion. I would on the other hand leave city? Why not make Calcutta an the whole issue to our leader. Let - autonomous city? Why Bombayalone? him call all these warring States to- It is unnatural and should not be tried. gether. Let them have a heart to. heart talk and decide something, and, Slim C. G. K. REDDY: Impertinent. then let the details be worked out by the Commission.

SHRI T. R. DEOGIRIKAR: If you SHRI GOVINDA REDDY: Do you. try it, it will be endangering the security agree to it? and safety of the country. SHRI T. R. DEOGIRIKAR: If on the- SHRI B. C. GHOSE: Why? It will be other hand, you are going to appoint in India. this high power Commission it will' ultimately lead to greater dissatis- SHRI T. R. DEOGIRIKAR: Time faction and greater trouble in the alone will show. No amount of argument country. When the verdict could come will do. A high power Commission is from the high power Commission, why to be shortly appointed. We do not should it not come from our ho-n. Prime know the personnel, we do not know Minister? We are more attached to the terms of reference and we do not him than to the personnel of the high know the procedure that will be power Commission. So, that is my - followed in solving the points at issue. humble request. I tell you, Sir, that The Commission will think that they if our Prime Minister says that lin- are faced with sentimental demands guistic States are harmful, we will for linguistic States on the one hand abide by his dedision as true citizens and the hard realities affecting the of this country. We are not going to. interests of the country on the other. rebel against anybody. We will wait As I am going to show in a minute for our own time but nothing will be- or two, I am not enamoured of this done on our part to endanger the• high power Commission. This high safety of our country. That much power Commission, which is to come assurance I can give. So ultimately I into existence, should have the final wish Andhra, the first State which is voice. Opting in or opting out should coming up after independence, well; not be left to the States concerned. If let them play their part well and let you want viable units, economic and all doubts and fears expressed from other considerations should be taken various quarters be buried. Sir, I into account. Then, in composite support the Bill. States, it is very difficult to get an ab- solute majority of the section of the The Council then adjourned people speaking the same language. till a quarter past eight of the So, the principle of the majority of the clock on Monday, the 'Ain single group should be applied in coin- September 1953.