Thursday Volume 528 19 May 2011 No. 161

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 19 May 2011

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Chris Huhne: I pay tribute to the work done under the House of Commons previous Government. The fundamental principles of the green deal are cross-party and I welcome that because Thursday 19 May 2011 it provides comfort to investors that they know there will not be a sudden change in the framework. I welcome the Opposition’s input on this. The House met at half-past Ten o’clock On finance, we have had many discussions and looked at the results of pilots, including the British Gas pilot. PRAYERS The business model that we are proposing is particularly interesting because the key thing is that if some of the bigger players can get the cost of a substantial number [Mr SPEAKER in the Chair] of green deals off their own balance sheets they will be able to securitise flows in the bond market, which will provide a regular flow of cheap finance for all the green Oral Answers to Questions deal providers. Green Deal

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE 2. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab): What steps he plans to take to ensure consumer The Secretary of State was asked— confidence in the green deal scheme. [56252] Green Deal The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne): Consumer confidence will be vital for 1. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): When he the green deal. In developing secondary legislation, we expects the green deal scheme to begin operation. will support this by ensuring consumer protection and [56251] redress mechanisms are in place. For example, our licensing arrangements will require providers to work to The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change a green deal code, which will require they use only (Chris Huhne): The Energy Bill, which was introduced accredited assessors and installers. to the House of Lords on 8 December 2010, contains the primary legislation of the new green deal proposal. Catherine McKinnell: I thank the Secretary of State Secondary legislation will allow the Government to for that answer. I recently met the National Federation implement and administer the requirements of the primary of Roofing Contractors to discuss my Apprenticeships legislation and we intend to lay the secondary legislation and Skills (Public Procurement Contracts) Bill and before Parliament in March 2012 so that it will be in people raised concerns about potential loopholes in the place to underpin the delivery of the green deal for green deal, ensuring the right measures are selected for October 2012. The timetable is naturally subject to the installation, ensuring the quality of installations, and time taken for parliamentary scrutiny. accountability for the work. Will the Secretary of State explain what he is doing to close the loopholes in order Dr Huppert: I thank the Secretary of State for his to ensure consumer confidence? comments. What opportunities will the green deal provide for smaller, innovative and high-tech companies, and Chris Huhne: My officials are in contact with a wide how many jobs will be available in that sector as a result range of interests and I am happy to meet, and to of the green deal? ensure that my officials meet, the people the hon. Lady has mentioned. We obviously want to ensure that there Chris Huhne: The green deal will, I think, be a real are no loopholes and we have done a lot. The licensing game changer. It will provide a framework that will arrangement and the green deal code, as I have mentioned, enable billions of pounds of investment in retrofitting will be important. The Consumer Credit Act 1974 will our homes and businesses across the country. Everywhere extend to the green deal, and the golden rule that forms we have homes—that obviously means every part of the part of the green deal ensures that the expected savings country—there will be new business opportunities. It is will always at least match the costs. The Energy Bill important to develop the supply chains in the energy includes strong requirements to disclose the presence of saving industries, such as for solid wall insulation, and a future charge to bill payers and the accreditation innovative products, as well as to reduce our dependence process will also allow guarantees for the work carried on imported energy. We are determined to ensure that out, for example. We will establish an independent small businesses can participate in the benefits that the advice line that will also support customers seeking green deal will bring. redress. The hon. Lady should remember that all that is in addition to the normal protections for consumers Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): The through, for example, the Consumer Protection from Secretary of State will know that his Labour predecessors, Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and the Unfair Terms of which I was one, developed a similar ambitious in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. programme for domestic energy efficiency, but because of the complexity of financing such deals, we believed Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): My right hon. Friend that pilot projects were necessary and set them up, will be aware that a number of places in the country, involving 500 homes. What has he learned from those including Cornwall, are particularly ambitious to forge pilots? ahead with the green deal. Other than the constraints 477 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 478 on the capacity of assessors and fitters, will any other The Minister of State, Department of Energy and impediments be faced by those parts of the country that Climate Change (Gregory Barker): The ECO is being particularly want to embrace this great opportunity? designed specifically to tackle fuel poverty and hard-to-treat homes. Although it is too early to set exact numbers for Chris Huhne: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s the scheme ahead of our consultation on the ECO in question. We are working through literally every possible autumn I fully expect a far greater level of resource to impediment, as we are in other areas of the economy in be brought to bear on the fuel-poor than was previously which my Department particularly wants to see a transition the case under the carbon emissions reduction target or to a low-carbon economy, to understand best what the Warm Front. impediments might be and to remove them. I am absolutely confident that when it comes to the launch of the green Nick Smith: I thank the Minister for his reply. Parts deal in October 2012 there will be enormous opportunities of Blaenau Gwent are 1,200 feet above sea level and it for Cornwall. The only constraint is going to be making gets cold in winter. Given the established relationship sure that there are enough people who are trained between excess winter deaths and low indoor temperature, properly to accredit, assess and install the green deal. I and given that the UK has a higher rate of such deaths am confident that the finance will be available and it is than Scandinavian countries, will he ensure that the important that we make as much progress as we can. ECO prioritises a reduction in excess winter deaths?

Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman raises a very Consumer confidence is vital to ensuring that the green important point. As I also sit on the Cabinet Office’s deal is a success. We know that Ministers were discussing Public Health Sub-Committee, I am very aware of the possible incentives at around the time of the Budget to issue he raises. That is why we are absolutely clear that encourage green deal take-up and the Chancellor alluded the ECO must be focused on the fuel-poor and hard-to-treat to that in his Budget speech, but no concrete announcements homes and why we must have an impact on exactly the have yet been made. Will the Secretary of State give us statistic that he mentions in relation to his constituency. any further details today about how home owners and tenants will be incentivised in order for the green deal to meet the Government’s ambitions? Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): We have just heard twice from the Minister that the ECO will be used specifically to tackle hard-to-treat Chris Huhne: Under the terms of the energy company homes and fuel poverty, but unfortunately this week we obligation in the Energy Bill, there is capacity for the have heard worrying rumours that the ECO will not be companies that are subject to the ECO to bring forward used exclusively to tackle fuel poverty and hard-to-treat incentives. The Chancellor has, as the hon. Lady pointed homes. Consumer Focus recently estimated that to tackle out, rightly made a commitment to consider incentivisation. just over a third of non-cavity-wall homes in the UK She will also be aware that we made announcements would require an ECO investment of more than £7 billion. on the Energy Bill’s Second Reading to bring forward That underlines the scale of the challenge that the ECO some quite important incentives for the private rental needs to meet. Will the Minister guarantee today that sector, particularly for F and G-rated properties. All the ECO will be used only to tackle fuel poverty and those measures will get the scheme off to a flying start. hard-to-treat homes and not to subsidise banks providing green deal finance? Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): My hard-pressed constituents in Harlow will strongly welcome the green Gregory Barker: I do not think I could be clearer deal, but how will consumers be informed how to apply than to say that the focus of this new measure, unlike for it and how it will work? the CERT programme brought in by the previous Government, which we had to reform considerably Chris Huhne: I think we will have a lot of interest when we came to office, will be on fuel poverty and from consumers precisely because of the important hard-to-treat homes. We are absolutely clear about that golden rule that this will benefit consumers—that the and the measure is going to be much more effective than energy savings as a result of the green deal will outstrip any measure that the Labour party introduced. the assessed costs of the installation. I think there will be a lot of buzz around the green deal. A lot of potential suppliers, such as B&Q, are very interested. Renewable Heat Incentive As people move house and go to B&Q and look at what they might do for their kitchen or bathroom, they might 4. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What also, at that point, have the opportunity to sign up for a contribution he expects the renewable heat incentive to green deal. I think it will spread very quickly through make to the Government’s targets for greenhouse gas word of mouth, and that is why it is so important to get emission reductions. [56254] consumer confidence.

Energy Company Obligation The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker): We expect installations in industrial and commercial buildings to achieve cumulative 3. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): How much carbon dioxide savings of 44 million tonnes of CO2 by funding he expects to be made available to households 2020. It is harder to forecast reductions for the domestic in fuel poverty through the energy company obligation sector, but we hope to achieve a cumulative reduction of in its first year of operation. [56253] at least 2.5 million tonnes by 2020 also. 479 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 480

Stephen Mosley: I thank the Minister for his response, any repeat of the sorts of examples there were when the but I have one concern about the renewable heat incentive. Labour Government in Australia introduced a similar We are proposing to introduce the premium payment scheme, which was indeed a cowboys’ charter. scheme in July, which will run for 15 months until it is replaced by the green deal and the RHI tariff next Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): October. Will he reassure people who are considering What discussions has my right hon. Friend had with the taking out the RHI premium payment scheme that they Office of Fair Trading, which will regulate green deal will automatically qualify for the RHI tariff when it is providers, to ensure that credit is only offered responsibly? introduced next October? Chris Huhne: The credit will be regulated under the Gregory Barker: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Consumer Credit Act, but the provisions are very clear. Friend for raising this important point, not least because I do not think that my officials have had direct contact we hope that more than 25,000 people will take advantage with the OFT, but it of course has an important monitoring of the premium payments. Providing that they comply role to ensure that those rules are observed. with the terms of the payment, they will certainly be able to qualify for the RHI tariff. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Why, oh why, can the Government not learn from past success, Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): such as what happened in Huddersfield and Kirklees The Minister will be aware that there is a sort of hiatus with Warm Zone, which was a highly successful scheme? in the industry at the moment among consumers, as the Why can we not take the best elements of that and put previous question from the hon. Member for City of them into the current legislation to get the best possible Chester (Stephen Mosley) indicated, because they do option? not know what the tariff will be and we do not have an absolute commitment that its introduction will coincide Chris Huhne: We are absolutely determined to ensure with that of the green deal next October. Can he confirm that, where a local authority wants to lead from the that the tariff will definitely come in and, in the interim, front with neighbourhood schemes of the sort the hon. at least let us have details of what it will be in order to Gentleman has mentioned, they are enabled, quite rightly, restore confidence, the lack of which is currently holding to go ahead. They will have access to the finance available the whole scheme back? under the green deal and I very much hope that go-ahead local authorities, whether in his constituency, in Cornwall Gregory Barker: I can certainly assure the hon. or anywhere else in the country, will lead this exercise, Gentleman that the tariffs will kick in alongside the because there are enormous opportunities. That is good green deal in autumn next year and that we will publish for residents, for energy saving across the country as a the rates of the tariffs this September. Premium payments whole and for local jobs. are a really good way of ensuring that we dovetail strong consumer safeguards while priming new technologies. Green Deal and Renewable Heat Incentive

Green Deal 6. Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): What assessment he has made of the likely effect on investment in green 5. Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): What jobs and technologies of the green deal and renewable steps he plans to take to ensure that householders who heat incentive schemes. [56256] participate in the green deal scheme have access to an appropriate redress scheme in respect of any inadequate The Minister of State, Department of Energy and work carried out. [56255] Climate Change (Gregory Barker): We estimate that the green deal could drive up to £20 billion of investment The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change by 2020 and support more than 125,000 jobs across the (Chris Huhne): I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer supply chain. In addition, by 2020 the renewable heat I gave the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne incentive scheme should lead to up to £7.5 billion of North (Catherine McKinnell) some moments ago. new capital investment in heat technologies and potentially support 150,000 manufacturing, supply chain and installer Steve Rotheram: I thank the Secretary of State for jobs, not least in Worcester Bosch in my hon. Friend’s his response. Without proper consumer protections, the constituency. green deal will become a white elephant, so can he further outline how the Government will stop the scheme Mr Walker: Following the welcome decision of the becoming a cowboys’ charter, with unscrupulous suppliers regional growth fund to approve investments of almost preying on the most vulnerable in society? £18 million in the Worcester technology park project, the one remaining hurdle for the creation of thousands Chris Huhne: Mr Speaker, I think I tested your patience of new green jobs in Worcester is the approval of the with the length of my previous answer to a similar board of Bosch. What message would the Minister send question, so I will not go through the list again, but we to that board and to other overseas investors about have put in place a substantial set of measures that will Britain’s commitment to green growth and jobs? allow redress, including an advice line and all the normal protections, such as the ability to go through the small Gregory Barker: My hon. Friend is a real champion claims court and to the energy ombudsman. All of of green growth, and I can tell him unequivocally that, those are available to consumers. I agree with the hon. although we have set an ambitious carbon budget, Gentleman on one key point: consumer confidence in under this coalition decarbonisation must not mean this scheme will be absolutely crucial. We do not want deindustrialisation—far from it. We are committed to 481 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 482 creating a framework for more advanced manufacturing development forum with the industry; we have put in jobs to power green growth and to make Britain once place a regulator framework; and we are putting in again a workshop of the world. place a road map in order to know what needs to happen. In place of the rhetoric and ambition under the Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): Why in the past previous Government, we are delivering action. year has Britain slipped from third in the world to 13th in terms of investment in green industry? Eco Island Initiative Gregory Barker: I am afraid that it will be very 8. Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): What difficult to shake a legacy of 13 years of Labour recent assessment he has made of the Isle of Wight’s government, and the hon. Gentleman will know that we eco island initiative. [56259] slipped massively down the table of world manufacturing during his party’s time in government. We are having to The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change put this country on a different trajectory, and that (Chris Huhne): I recently visited my hon. Friend’s means a slight hiatus while we change course, but when constituency and met several businesses and individuals we have changed course and our new measures are in involved in the Isle of Wight eco island initiative. I place we will be primed for success and will turn around applaud the initiative, which is showing real leadership the miserable failure of the Labour years. in bringing the local community and businesses together, in reducing carbon emissions and in helping to build a Carbon Capture and Storage prosperous low-carbon economy.

7. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): What Mr Turner: Will the Secretary of State join me in plans he has for the future of carbon capture and storage; congratulating David Green on the way in which he is and if he will make a statement. [56257] moving the eco island initiative forward, and will my right hon. Friend visit the island again to see for himself 13. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) not only the eco island project, but other green technology (Lab): What plans he has for the future of carbon companies? capture and storage. [56264] Chris Huhne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that The Minister of State, Department of Energy and question. As he knows, I can see the island from my Climate Change (Charles Hendry): CCS has the potential constituency, and I suspect that another visit is not to play a very significant role in our future energy mix. going to be that far off, but I certainly do join him in The Government are committed to public sector investment congratulating David Green. The Department of Energy in CCS technology for four power stations, including and Climate Change has been very pleased to support both coal and gas. We aim to reach agreement on the carbon reduction on the Isle of Wight with a £500,000 first project and to launch the competition for projects 2 grant, for example, through the low-carbon communities to 4 later this year. We will also publish a CCS road map challenge, which has been used to install renewable this autumn. measures in a number of properties in the village of Chale Green. I am very impressed by the way in which Pamela Nash: I thank the Minister for that answer, the whole initiative is beginning to take off and to have but is he completely confident that the introduction of a a real local impact. carbon floor price will not result in the collapse of future investment in carbon capture and storage? Electric Vehicles Charles Hendry: The hon. Lady raises an extremely important issue. We are actively discussing that with the 9. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): companies involved in project 1, and we believe that we What recent discussions he has had with the Chancellor can find a way through it to ensure that those plants of the Exchequer on any fiscal incentives to support have a long-term viable future, but I hope she agrees achievement of the Committee on Climate Change’s that we are right to be making the future price of target number of electric vehicles in 2020. [56260] carbon clear. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Chi Onwurah: As the former managing director of a Climate Change (Gregory Barker): Fiscal incentives are risk rating agency, the Secretary of State must be well a matter for the Treasury, but DECC has a strong aware of the corrosive effect of uncertainty on any interest in encouraging the take-up of electric vehicles. business, yet he refuses to give green energy the clarity it We work closely with the Department for Transport, needs on carbon capture and storage. After the photovoltaic which has lead responsibility for the policy, but we fiasco, the “carbon four”coup and the building regulation regularly meet companies leading the development and bombshell, has he lost all credibility among the green deployment of cutting-edge low-carbon vehicle technologies. industries? Andrew Selous: Electric cars will play an important Charles Hendry: That is a quite extraordinary question. part in reducing carbon emissions, they are an important The Secretary of State has shown real leadership on part of green growth, and they can reduce the costs of those issues. In the course of a year, £1 billion not motoring for our constituents. The Committee on Climate previously available has been made available for carbon Change has called for 1.7 million electric cars by 2020— capture; we have set up an office of carbon capture and quite a lot fewer than Japan and Israel. How does my storage to drive forward that work; we have set up a hon. Friend see us meeting that target? 483 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 484

Gregory Barker: My hon. Friend is a powerful advocate the Committee and Report stage of the Energy Bill and for this agenda and speaks with considerable authority. through the green deal, to ensure that a clear delivery He will know that in the last comprehensive spending plan is enshrined in legislation to eliminate fuel poverty? review we announced over £400 million of measures to promote the take-up of ultra low-carbon vehicles, in Gregory Barker: That piece of landmark legislation, addition to exempting them from road tax, company which my hon. Friend got on to the statute book having car tax and the congestion charge, and now we have had long experience in these matters, will be an important a consumer grant of up to £5,000 per vehicle and a part of our strategy for delivering a green deal programme £30 million investment in infrastructure. Then, on top that will bear down on and eventually eliminate fuel of that, later this summer, in line with the coalition poverty. I can assure him that unlike the Labour agreement commitment to mandate a national recharging Government, who allowed the Home Energy Conservation network, we will be publishing a strategy for promoting Act 1995 to languish on the statute book and be frittered the roll-out of charging infrastructure. away, we will ensure that the legislation is used effectively and that there is far greater co-ordination and collaboration Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I will resist the between local government and us at the centre. temptation to ask whether it is easier to stay within the speed limit in an electric car. Instead, I will ask what is Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): When the best way to make electric cars more efficient in their the Warm Front scheme is closed down, it will be the use of energy given that the electricity still has to be first time in 30 years that there has not been a Treasury- generated and that we still rely on burning fossil fuels funded scheme to tackle fuel poverty, which is a major for much of our energy. problem in constituencies such as mine. Will the Minister do all he can to persuade the Treasury to take its fair Gregory Barker: Ultimately, it will be the decarbonisation share of the cost of cutting poverty so that the full of the energy sector that will ensure that electric cars funding burden is not regressively applied to energy become genuinely low or zero-carbon vehicles. With the bills, thus hitting the poorest hardest? publication of the fourth carbon budget, we now have the long-term trajectory in place to ensure that we reach Gregory Barker: Sadly, we know that in the past our ambitious decarbonisation goals. Warm Front has not been effective. Let us face it, more than 90 Members from all sides of the House, including Independent Fuel Poverty Review Labour Front Benchers, have written to me to complain about it. Were we to carry on relying on Warm Front 10. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): alone, it would take more than 80 years to treat homes When he expects to receive the recommendations of the which, under the green deal, we expect to treat by 2030. independent fuel poverty review. [56261] I have to say to the hon. Lady that there is funding next year, the year after and the year after that for Warm 14. Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): When Front, but the real driver for eliminating fuel poverty he expects to receive the recommendations of the will be the green deal and the ECO that underpins it. independent fuel poverty review. [56265] Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): What The Minister of State, Department of Energy and action does the Minister propose to take to ensure that Climate Change (Gregory Barker): My right hon. Friend the energy company obligation does not put more people the Secretary of State has asked Professor Hills of the into fuel poverty, as a result of the effect that the London School of Economics to lead the independent imposition of the levy will have on their bills, than it fuel poverty review and to provide interim findings by takes out? Will he consider rising block tariffs as a this autumn and a final report by early 2012 at the method of imposing levies, rather than an imposition latest. on standing charges, which would have a particular effect on those in fuel poverty? Roger Williams: I thank the Minister for that reply. I understand that the author of the report has been asked Gregory Barker: The hon. Gentleman speaks with to demonstrate how fuel poverty can be removed entirely great authority on this subject and is recognised as an within 15 years. Many constituents of mine live in expert, but we have considered block tariffs and do not homes that are off mains gas and are hard to heat. Will believe that they are effective. The warm home discount the green deal have enough capacity to meet that target is available, however, which will be worth more than and eliminate this scourge of rural areas? £1 billion to the fuel-poor over the spending period. We expect it to help up to 2 million households a year. His Gregory Barker: Absolutely. The rural fuel-poor, who point about levies is well made, and we have paid for many years have been overlooked by fuel poverty particular attention to that issue. That is why, unlike policies, and who suffer particularly from high heating-oil under the Labour proposals, the RHI will be funded prices and from hard-to-heat homes, will particularly out of general taxation, which we believe will be more benefit from the green deal and from the renewable heat progressive. incentive. Under the coalition, it is a double win for the rural fuel-poor. Offshore Wind Farms Mr Amess: As the promoter of the Warm Homes and Energy Conservation Act 2000, my hon. Friend will 11. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): If he will understand my disappointment that fuel poverty has develop incentives to encourage the siting of wind not been eliminated. Will he take the opportunity, through farms offshore. [56262] 485 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 486

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): The Opposition Climate Change (Charles Hendry): Offshore wind is share the Minister’s ambitions on offshore wind, which currently supported under the renewables obligation, is no surprise given that it is our policy as well, and on and we have brought forward the banding review to renewables generally. How does he react to the news determine future support to realise the full potential of that renewables investment in the UK plummeted by this vital sector. Through electricity market reform, we 70% last year under the coalition Government; that we are working on more enduring support for low-carbon have dropped from third to 13th in the global rankings electricity generation and we will publish a White Paper for renewables investment; and that a report on the before the summer recess. I chair the Offshore Wind coalition’s green promises shows little or no progress on Developers Forum, which is working to identify barriers three quarters of its promises? What now for the greenest that need to be addressed. Government ever?

Mr Hollobone: According to the Government’s figures, Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that by 2020 they expect there to be 14 GW of onshore wind the funding mechanism of renewables obligation certificates capacity and 13 GW of offshore wind capacity. My that we inherited has a cliff edge in 2013, and we have constituents and, I suspect, many Members in this tried to give investors certainty beyond that point. It is House would like there to be far more wind turbines clear that in the case of many renewable technologies, offshore than onshore, because it is windier offshore people have been unable to build structures because the and offshore wind turbines do not despoil the British system was to change in 2013. They did not know what countryside. the regime was going to be afterwards. That is why we have brought forward the banding review—to give investors Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend has picked up on long-term certainty and introduce market reform at the one of the five or six scenarios that we put forward on same time. how we can meet our 2050 targets. I understand his concerns, but we also have to take account of cost. Gas Supply Offshore wind costs about twice as much as onshore wind. We need to be aware of the interests of consumers, who have to pay the bills. 12. Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the security of Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): The Committee the UK’s gas supply; and if he will make a statement. on Climate Change has said that the Government should [56263] reduce by several gigawatts their target of a 13 GW capacity for offshore wind electricity generation by The Minister of State, Department of Energy and 2020, precisely because of that expense. Will the Minister Climate Change (Charles Hendry): The statutory security assure the House that if that target is abandoned, he of supply report, published in November, is a joint will do all he can to ensure that onshore wind farms are report of the Department of Energy and Climate Change not blocked by nimbyism in Tory and Lib Dem-controlled and Ofgem. It gives a full account of the Government’s councils? latest assessment of the availability of gas to meet the reasonable demands of United Kingdom consumers. It Charles Hendry: The hon. Lady raises an issue that is concludes that the outlook for gas supplies is broadly of concern to Members from all parts of the House. benign but not without risks. The Government keep There is a realisation about the impact of onshore wind security of supply under constant review and have farms. We want there to be more onshore wind farms, proposed measures in the current Energy Bill to further but we are determined to ensure that they are built in enhance our gas security. the most appropriate locations and that there is support for the communities that host them. Eric Ollerenshaw: I thank the Minister and accept that the gas supply is a vital part of our future energy Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con): needs, but will he reassure me and, more importantly, My hon. Friend will be aware of the good news that the my constituents that their concerns and their safety will Danish company, Vestas, has announced its intention to remain paramount considerations in decisions on gas set up a wind turbine factory in my constituency, which storage sites? will create 2,000 much-needed jobs. However, the project is conditional on a number of factors, including the Charles Hendry: I can absolutely assure my hon. Government delivering stability in the market, and long- Friend that security and safety are priorities for the term political and regulatory certainty. What assurances Government in developing gas storage facilities. We do can my hon. Friend give Vestas to help us seal the deal need more such facilities; a number are under construction and turn that good news into very good news? and a number more have been given consent. The planning process will ensure that safety issues are a priority in Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend highlights one of that work. the investment opportunities that is coming through as a result of our approach of wanting a supply chain Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): industry to develop for the offshore wind sector in this Does the Minister accept that the £2 billion robbery of country. That news is very encouraging. I reassure taxation from the North sea oilfields is now threatening Vestas that the area of Sheerness has a dedicated and the gas supply from that area? Total has told me that it able work force, an absolute champion in its Member of would not have invested in the west of Shetland area if Parliament, and a supportive Government who want to it had known about that tax. The Treasury’s latest see this matter move forward. proposal to tax every flight that a person takes out into 487 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 488 the North sea will further threaten supplies. Will he Onshore Wind Energy intervene with the Treasury to stop it robbing North sea oil? 16.SimonHart(CarmarthenWestandSouthPembrokeshire) (Con): What his policy is on onshore wind energy. Charles Hendry: The hon. Gentleman talks about a [56267] robbery. I assume that he is going around telling his constituents that he would rather the Chancellor had The Minister of State, Department of Energy and not reduced fuel duty and cancelled some of Labour’s Climate Change (Charles Hendry): Onshore wind energy planned rises. We are determined to ensure that there is is one of the most cost-effective renewable energy sources. ongoing investment, and there is discussion with the The Government are committed to the growth of well-sited Treasury about field allowances. The helicopter issue onshore wind in the UK as part of a diverse energy mix, that he mentions is in a consultation document, which but we will put greater emphasis on ensuring that will take its proper course. investment goes where the resource is strongest and bringing more direct benefits to communities that host National Policy Statements wind farms.

15. Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): Simon Hart: The Localism Bill will allow communities When he plans to publish the national policy in England to take a far greater part in the planning process. What assurance can the Minister give those of statements on energy. [56266] us in west Wales that the same opportunities will be open to us? The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry): As my right hon. Charles Hendry: As my hon. Friend will be aware, Friend the Secretary of State said in his statement that is a matter for the Welsh Assembly Government. I yesterday, we are carefully considering Dr Weightman’s hope that they will look carefully at the detail of the interim report on the implications for the UK of events Localism Bill to see our determination to bring real at Fukushima. Subject to that, we intend to lay the benefit to communities through the planning changes in energy national policy statements before Parliament as England, and I hope that they will decide which of the soon as possible. measures in the Bill might be appropriate to bring similar benefits to people in Wales. Damian Collins: In the extra time that the Minister probably now has available, will he consider giving Energy Bill (Consumer Protection) greater consideration to the local economic benefits of nuclear power stations in the site-specific report, with particular regard to Dungeness and Romney Marsh in 17. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): my constituency? What recent representations he has received on the level of consumer protection afforded by provisions of the Energy Bill. [56268] Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend is a doughty champion of the case for Dungeness. We have examined carefully the evidence that has come forward, and we will publish The Minister of State, Department of Energy and it when the relevant documents are republished very Climate Change (Gregory Barker): Robust consumer shortly. He will have to be patient for a little longer, but protection is at the heart of the green deal, and will be I assure him that we have given every attention to the enshrined in the Bill’s provisions. Further details will be evidence that has been presented to us. spelt out in secondary legislation later this autumn. Diana Johnson: I listened carefully to what the Minister Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ said earlier about redress being open to individuals Co-op): Yesterday we heard the Secretary of State say through, for example, the county court, but I am pleased that the national policy statements would be published to hear that he recognises the importance of good, shortly, and the Minister has repeated that today. With strong consumer protection set out in regulations. I very the stringent targets in the fourth carbon budget and much hope that the Government introduce that and the previous three, businesses need certainty if we are to provide robust protection for consumers. meet our carbon reduction targets. Will the Minister be more precise and tell us exactly when the Department is planning to publish—not just “shortly”, but a date? Gregory Barker: The hon. Lady makes some very good points. I am pleased to say that although we will publish the details later in the year, before the Bill is in Charles Hendry: The hon. Lady will be aware that Committee, I shall place in the House of Commons given the nature of the report provided by Dr Weightman Library a paper summarising our approach to regulation yesterday, it would be wrong to make premature and and send her a copy. rushed conclusions. We have to go through the right process. We are in the current situation because the national policy statements that the last Government Energy-intensive Industries published contained a massive flaw that required them to be consulted upon again. We have had to go through 18. Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): If that process, which has involved extra time and delay. his Department will undertake an impact assessment of However, we will bring them forward for full parliamentary the effect of energy regulation on the competitiveness scrutiny in the next few weeks. of energy-intensive industries. [56269] 489 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 490

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and to be as helpful as we can. The primary barrier to the Climate Change (Charles Hendry): The Government previous proposal was the £34 billion cost, which in the intend that UK-based energy-intensive industries will current circumstances just did not seem feasible. However, play a full part in, and benefit from, the transition to a we are trying to create a constructive framework for low-carbon economy. My Department is working with other, private proposals, and I would be happy to discuss the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to the matter in more detail with the hon. Lady. develop measures to help to improve energy efficiency and reduce electricity costs for such important companies. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced Green Deal on Tuesday, further announcements will be made by the end of the year. 20. Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): By what Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): I thank date he expects proposed legislation to enact the green the Minister for that reply, and may I also thank the deal to enter into force. [56272] Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Barker), who has responsibility for climate change, for (Chris Huhne): The Energy Bill, which was introduced the Government’s decision to support the ceramics sector to the House of Lords on 8 December 2010, contains in Brussels today? the primary legislation for the new green deal proposal. Businesses in my constituency welcome the Department Secondary legislation will allow the Government to for Business, Innovation and Skills-Department of Energy implement and administer the requirements of the primary and Climate Change working party on energy-intensive legislation. We intend to lay the secondary legislation industries, but will the Minister ensure that it focuses on before Parliament in March 2012, so it will be in place international competitiveness, because our energy-intensive to underpin the delivery of the green deal for October businesses simply cannot pass on unilateral energy costs 2012. That timetable is naturally subject to the time in a global marketplace? taken for parliamentary scrutiny. If I may clarify the answer I gave to the hon. Member Charles Hendry: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), I am question, and for the work that he is doing to raise informed that some DECC officials have indeed spoken those important issues in the House and in the new to the Office of Fair Trading about the provision of parliamentary Committee. Without any doubt, we are credit for the green deal, and we have an ongoing profoundly concerned about the risk of carbon leakage. engagement. It would be absolutely absurd for British companies to move overseas, taking jobs with them, only for us to continue to import those products and for carbon emissions Christopher Pincher: When the green deal is rolled to go unabated or even worse in other parts of the out, will my right hon. Friend ensure that the green deal world. That is why there is such clear, joined-up thinking MOT on domestic properties focuses not only on insulation, between DECC, the Treasury and BIS to ensure that we but on smart metering and energy-efficient boilers, come up with a comprehensive range of measures to so that customers in my constituency and around the support those critical industries. country get the most energy-efficient and bill-cutting green deal? Tidal Energy Chris Huhne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that 19. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What question, because very substantial incentives to install plans his Department has to generate tidal energy from renewable heat solutions are available under the renewable the River Severn. [56270] heat incentive, alongside the green deal. The green deal itself will deal with insulation, but I confidently expect The Minister of State, Department of Energy and that many of the providers will offer heat solutions Climate Change (Gregory Barker): Following a two-year alongside that, which is very important. feasibility study, the Government concluded that there was not a strong case for public investment in a Severn tidal power scheme in the immediate term. However, Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I am concerned that does not preclude a privately financed scheme about the delivery of the green deal, especially in the coming forward in the meantime, and we are actively private rented sector. How does the Secretary of State talking to developers about their plans for various tidal expect compliance to happen in this sector, which seems energy schemes in the Severn. to be quite evasive? For example, will he expect local authorities to keep a register of landlords in their area Jessica Morden: The Government have decided against as part of the delivery mechanism? the Severn barrage, but it is important that we do not lose the impetus to harness tidal power in the Severn. Chris Huhne: We have announced that we intend to Will the Minister give more detail on any discussions he regulate the private rented sector so that there will be a has had with the Welsh Assembly Government on clear prohibition on letting F and G-rated homes in the alternative plans? How far advanced are they? future, and that will provide a clear target for the private rented sector to go ahead. All of the normal means of Gregory Barker: I cannot give details of commercially enforcing this will be available through local authorities, confidential discussions, but we are encouraging developers but we will bring forward further measures in secondary to come forward with a range of proposals and looking legislation. 491 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 492

Climate Change Legislation Cuadrilla’s plans thoroughly and does not consider that they pose a significant risk to the environment, including 22. Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) to water resources. (Con): What his policy is on recognising national climate change legislation as a commitment under the United Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Nations framework convention on climate change. Co-op): In the last period, lending to small and medium [56274] enterprises dropped by 2%, so Project Merlin is not delivering—the Prime Minister has spoken on this. We The Minister of State, Department of Energy and know the importance of the green investment bank and Climate Change (Gregory Barker): Domestic legislation of the need to get green businesses to grow—that is the is desirable and demonstrates political commitment at subject of cross-party agreement. So why will the green country level. However, the UK Government believe investment bank not lend to small businesses? that an international treaty is still the best and most credible way of promoting ambitious mitigation action Chris Huhne: The exact remit of the green investment at a global level. bank has still to be announced and I urge the hon. Lady to wait for that. We have said that it will be built up and Mr Stuart: I thank the Minister for his answer and able to borrow and lend from April 2015. That will be agree with the point he makes, but does he agree with the most significant point, because at that point it will me that it is important to encourage and recognise be able to provide finance for some of the biggest national legislative action and that the global legislators’ investments in the renewable sector in particular. My organisation, GLOBE, should continue to bring legislators Department is acutely aware of the importance of together to catalogue and push for greater action at encouraging small businesses and we intend to do so. national level in lieu of international agreement? Meg Hillier: Once again, we hear warm words from Gregory Barker: Absolutely, and in the absence of a the Secretary of State but no action. Many small businesses global treaty, the work that GLOBE does—and my will be out of business by 2015 and we will have lost that hon. Friend does very valuable work as vice-president opportunity for technological development in the UK of GLOBE International and president of GLOBE backed by the green investment bank. UK—including its recent study of global climate change On a wider point, we have heard rumours in the legislation, is extremely valuable, and we certainly support newspapers about what the green investment bank will it and would encourage it to go further. be and the Secretary of State has just talked about a future announcement. Will he announce it to the House Topical Questions himself, or will he leave to the Deputy Prime Minister to make a speech in some other place about what will T1. [56276] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): If he will happen with the green investment bank? make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. Chris Huhne: I should point out to the hon. Lady that The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change the lead Department on the green investment bank is (Chris Huhne): My Department works to secure clean, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, so affordable energy supplies and action on climate change. my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary will be Last week, the Energy Bill received a Second Reading in making the formal announcements. That will happen in this House. It contains provisions for the green deal, due course. our flagship piece of legislation, which will deliver energy efficiency to homes and buildings across the T2. [56278] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Will land. On Tuesday, we announced the fourth carbon the Secretary of State tell me a bit more about what he budget, setting an ambitious target for UK emissions is doing to encourage and support the clean-tech reductions. We are now the first country in the world to industry, including the excellent companies around publicly commit to cutting carbon well into the next Cambridge, such as AlertMe, which monitors energy decade, and I have today published the summary of efficiency, Econovate, which is involved in sustainable conclusions of the Ofgem review. construction, and Eight19, which is developing novel solar technologies? Tony Baldry: Given the current drilling by Cuadrilla at Blackpool, is the Secretary of State confident that Chris Huhne: Earlier this year, I visited the SmartLIFE extracting shale gas in the UK will not lead to the centre in Cambridge and met almost a dozen clean-tech contamination of water supplies? companies from my hon. Friend’s constituency. I was impressed not just by the pioneering technologies that Chris Huhne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that one would expect from a city with Cambridge’s record question. The UK has a robust regime and it is important on innovation, but by how these ideas are being turned to recognise that we intend to ensure that shale gas into thriving businesses. I understand that the SmartLIFE operations are carried out in a safe and environmentally low-carbon centre is expanding this year to provide the sound manner. Shale gas exploration has been controversial, skills and training facilities needed for low-carbon especially in the United States where regulation has not qualifications. It is an exciting development. been well implemented, but here it is subject to a series of regulatory checks, including planning permission, T3. [56279] Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne health and safety checks, consultation with the Environment North) (Lab): Almost one in four households in the Agency and drilling consent from my Department. The north-east is living in fuel poverty, which is the highest Environment Agency in particular has scrutinised proportion in England. The Minister of State, Department 493 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 494 of Energy and Climate Change, the hon. Member for in driving the green deal forward will be the market, the Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker) said earlier that the new competition, the big retailers and the new entrants energy company obligation will rightly focus on fuel into the market. That will create a huge wave of interest poverty. However, can the Secretary of State rule out its across the country in all sectors. being used to subsidise banks providing green deal finance? T8. [56284] Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con): I am sure that my right hon. Chris Huhne: There is absolutely no intention, and Friend would agree that in making the case for the nor would it be possible, to use the ECO to subsidise green new deal, we must bring local communities with banks. I am confident about that because unlike the us. Onshore wind turbines are controversial in many Warm Front scheme, which Labour championed, the rural communities. If we are not careful and if local green deal provisions enable residents, having had a authorities push ahead with wind turbines without survey, not merely to go to the provider that did the considering other options, we run the risk of losing the survey, but to take that survey and get one or more support of some of our rural communities. Does he alternative quotations. The introduction of competition agree? into the process will guarantee that the subsidy goes to where it is needed—towards a reduction in carbon Chris Huhne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his emissions and improvements in energy efficiency—not question. As the Minister of State, Department of to providers, be they people in the industry or the banks. Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) pointed out earlier, onshore T6. [56282] Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): The wind is the cheapest source of renewable energy, and we Middlewich company, Convert2Green, in my constituency, have to take account of affordability. I should also say recently won the East Cheshire chamber of commerce that there are many local communities the length and environmental company of the year award. It converts breadth of this country that actually want to install used cooking oil, which would otherwise go into drains onshore wind turbines. It is not always the case that or landfill, into biodiesel for use in vehicles and elsewhere. they are unpopular. Indeed, the most attractive and The 20p duty differential for biodiesel has helped it to regularly visited tourist feature in my constituency is develop its innovative processes. What assessment has the Bursledon windmill. It is, admittedly, slightly older the Department made of the contribution of the 20p than many wind turbines, but it works on exactly the duty differential to the UK’s renewable energy targets, same principle. Bursledon windmill is beautiful, and and what are the Government’s future plans for the many of the wind turbines that we are installing are differential? beautiful too.

Chris Huhne: I join my hon. Friend in congratulating T5. [56281] Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): The Secretary the company involved. The recent quarterly renewable of State will be aware that the Renewable Energy transport fuel obligation report gives clear evidence on Association has described the proposed tariff changes the effectiveness of the 20p duty differential for biodiesel for solar photovoltaic installations over 50 kW as an derived from used cooking oil in assisting the Government “horrendous strategic mistake”. If he goes ahead with to exceed their greenhouse gas savings target, and in the changes, how do the Government intend to support increasing substantially the retrieval of waste cooking decentralised local community energy generation in oil, which otherwise would literally be poured down the future? drain or go to landfill. The differential has therefore made a valuable contribution to the Government’s Gregory Barker: I am afraid that the horrendous renewable energy targets and waste strategy, and to the strategic failure was made by the last Government, who growth of the low-carbon economy. failed to put any sensible financial controls on the feed-in tariff scheme. There is plenty of scope for new T4. [56280] Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) innovative community schemes to take shape. Indeed, I (Lab): The Government’s announcement of a minimum visited one only last week in the constituency of my energy efficiency standard for private rented homes is hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon welcome, but the hundreds of tenants in Nottingham Kirby), and I look forward to visiting many more. We living in cold, damp F and G-rated homes should not want a big push forward in decentralised energy schemes. have to wait until 2018 for it to be introduced. I heard Solar is a great technology, but it has to be affordable. the Secretary of State’s reply to my hon. Friend the We need proper controls that do not blow the budget, Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones), but would the which is what would have happened had we not taken legislation not be more effective if a register of landlords action. was introduced so that they can be informed about the new standard and directed to information about the Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Most of the green deal and other measures that might help them to climate change debate tends to focus on mitigation and improve their properties? decarbonisation, but it is also important to work on adaption, such as how we respond to pressures on water The Minister of State, Department of Energy and supply. What plans are the Government putting in place Climate Change (Gregory Barker): The hon. Lady is at home and abroad to cope with the increasing pressure right that we are taking action to ensure that the private and also to promote new water filtration technologies, rented sector enjoys the full benefits of the green deal, such as that promoted by FilterClear, an innovative but she is wrong to assume that tenants will only learn company in my constituency that is creating green jobs about this from a council information leaflet or some and British exports, and promoting the more efficient regulated communication. The most powerful element use of water? 495 Oral Answers19 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 496

Gregory Barker: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. transport sector by adopting Greener Journeys’ ONE There are opportunities for green growth and innovation Billion challenge for a modal shift. Will the Minister right across the economy, and a lot that we can do in the look into the efficacy of the scheme and discuss the water sector in particular. However, that is a matter for proposal with his counterpart at the Department for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Transport? which is looking carefully at how we develop the green deal. Indeed, it is possible that we could see a similar Gregory Barker: I am not familiar with the details of programme offered in due course—perhaps a blue deal—to the scheme that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, but ensure that water-saving measures are funded in the I will certainly look into this and I would be happy to same way. However, she is absolutely spot-on in realising communicate with my colleagues at the Department for the huge potential that exists. Transport.

T7. [56283] Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): Has there been any discussion about the geographic Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Can the Secretary spread of carbon capture and storage demonstration of State remind the House how much energy was projects? The Minister will be aware that there are a contributed to the grid by onshore and offshore wind number of proposals in Scotland. Is it possible that two last December—one of the coldest periods of time on or even three of them might be allowed to go ahead? record?

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Chris Huhne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that Climate Change (Charles Hendry): The hon. Lady raises question. What he is really asking is: does wind help an extremely interesting point. Clearly there is an interest when it is not blowing? Any Energy Secretary has to in sharing infrastructure, rather than everybody rebuilding deal with the nightmare possibility of six cold, still days their own, for CCS to go forward. We are putting in February when the wind is not blowing but we all still forward seven schemes to the European funding mechanism need electricity. It is important for him to remember, —the NER300—which is more than any other country however, that the energy sector has always had to deal in Europe. Some schemes are geographically close to with variable demand. That is why plant is often built to each other and some are further apart. However, they back up other plant. An example of the enormous will be chosen on their merit, and there is a lot of work variation in demand is when we all go and put our kettles being done to ensure that the infrastructure costs are on during the advertising break in “Coronation Street”. shared wherever possible. At that point, we need to bring on massive amounts of electricity generation. That is exactly the same principle, Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): Ofgem’s retail so my hon. Friend’s point is by no means a killer market review finds that many consumers are not getting criticism of wind. Wind has a very important contribution nearly as good an energy deal as they could, and that to make to the national grid, and we intend to ensure includes too many of the poorest and most vulnerable. that it continues to do so. We have a diverse and dynamic market. That is a good thing, but it also means complexity, with more than 300 different tariffs available, 50% more than a year ago. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Compliance with Does my right hon. Friend agree with Ofgem’s proposal environmental legislation places a huge burden on to simplify things and make it easier for consumers to companies such as Rio Tinto Alcan in my constituency. compare prices and get a better deal? It will wipe out profits in excess of £50 million, come 2013, and it could jeopardise 650 jobs. What measures Mr Speaker: Order. The questions are becoming too are the Government putting in place to protect jobs in long and they need to be shorter. that type of industry?

Chris Huhne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right am extremely enthusiastic about the thrust of the question. to raise this matter. It is crucial that we bring forward I am delighted that Ofgem is looking at this issue, proper measures to deal with energy-intensive industries because as we have known ever since the middle ages—if of the sort that he mentions. In fact, we have had not before—if a market is to work effectively, we need contact with Rio Tinto Alcan, along with many other common weights and measures, so that people can energy-intensive industries, on exactly these issues. As I compare prices in the marketplace properly, and that is announced earlier this week, we are committed to working exactly what tariff simplification would enable them jointly with the Department for Business, Innovation to do. and Skills to bring forward a package of measures to ensure that energy-intensive industries have a thriving Mr Speaker: I call John Robertson. Not here. future in this country. There are a number of ways in which we can help, including free allocation under the Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Fifty per cent emissions trading scheme or conversion to biomass, more CO2 emissions savings could be made in the which is also an important option. 497 19 MAY 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 498

Wild Animals (Circuses) This House relies on Ministers giving us accurate and timely information, so will he take the opportunity to apologise for misleading the House and the British 11.32 am public and will he stop hiding behind some circus owners who, after six years of failed national and Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): (Urgent Question): European legal challenges, might well bring another To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food case? That provides no reason not to ban wild animals and Rural Affairs to explain her decision not to ban the in British circuses. use of wild animals in circuses. There is a further point. The Minister wants councils to license circuses, but there is a problem: circuses move The Minister of State, Department for Environment, from place to place, so conditions might be adequate in Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I apologise one town, but not in another. Is he aware that the for the absence of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government State, who is on ministerial business elsewhere. I am proposes to remove the powers of local authorities to grateful to the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) prosecute owners for animal cruelty as part of his for her question, because it allows me to draw the so-called review of the “burdens” on local authorities. House’s attention to the written ministerial statement He is proposing a scheme that gives authorities the laid by my right hon. Friend at 9.30 this morning. power to license, but no ability to prosecute owners if During oral questions last Thursday, and in the written cases of animal cruelty are discovered. ministerial statement on Friday, my right hon. Friend This is another all-singing, all-dancing disaster from and I referred to a current case against the Austrian the worst-performing Department in government. The Government relating to their ban on circuses. However, Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural we now understand that the initiation of court proceedings Affairs briefed the Daily Express on 3 April that the against the Austrian Government has been delayed, Department wanted a ban; the Minister’s Back Benchers although a case is in preparation and proceedings are and the rest of the House want a ban: it is time for expected to commence shortly. On behalf of my right another DEFRA U-turn and a ban on wild animals in hon. Friend, I would be very happy to clarify the British circuses. confusion that we might have caused. This does not, however, affect our policy to introduce a tough licensing Mr Paice: I am afraid that the hon. Lady’s record of regime. The very strong legal advice that we have received, events is somewhat distorted. We have not claimed that which is consistent with the case being prepared against the case brought by the European Commission was Austria, is that a total ban on wild animals in circuses anything to do with our decision. I referred specifically might well be seen as disproportionate action under the to a case that we understand is being prepared, as I have European Union services directive and under our own explained, by the European Circus Association against Human Rights Act 1998—[Interruption.] the Austrian Government. I can assure her that my officials have spoken today to the lawyer acting for the Mr Speaker: Order. We must hear the Minister’s European Circus Association to confirm the validity of response. that. As I have said, we also received advice from our lawyers that the ban could be inconsistent with the Mr Paice: We believe that to have pursued a ban in provisions of the EU services directive. The hon. Lady the light of that legal advice would have been irresponsible. has to ask, first, if this is so critical, why did her own Government not do it; and, secondly, if she were a Mary Creagh: As the Minister has said, the Secretary Minister, would she be prepared to override the advice of State told the House at DEFRA questions last of her own lawyers and risk being taken to court for it, Thursday that and subsequently having to withdraw the legislation she introduced? “the Austrian Government have been taken to court by a German circus company because of a breach of the EU services directive.”— [Official Report, 12 May 2011; Vol. 527, c. 1347.] Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): In 1997, the Her written ministerial statement the following day all-party animal welfare group, of which I was then the repeated that allegation, yet today’s statement has confirmed chairman, produced a report on performing animals in that no legal challenge exists. The DEFRA big top is circuses. I handed the report personally to the responsible spinning out of control on these legal cases that do not Labour Home Office Minister. In the ensuing years, the exist, and hiding behind human rights legislation— Labour Government took no action whatever, so I do not think we need to take any lessons from Labour Members on this subject. That said, there is no case for Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): performing wild animals in circuses. Given this stay of Pathetic! execution, will my right hon. Friend revisit the issue with a view to a total ban? Mary Creagh: It is the Department that is pathetic. Given that everything read on the internet should not Mr Paice: My hon. Friend rightly reminds us that the be trusted, for the future avoidance of doubt will the real issue is the welfare of animals in circuses. That is Minister place in the Library the evidence and the legal why our policy remains as it was clearly announced by advice he has received? The Austrian embassy in London my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on Friday. confirms that there was a legal challenge against Austria A strict licensing regime has the potential to reduce or by the Commission, but it was closed in 2005. The eliminate the use of wild animals in circuses if the European ombudsman closed the case in 2010. owners cannot meet the tough standards that we will 499 Wild Animals (Circuses)19 MAY 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 500 require, on which we will consult. That can be done case, and that it expects to issue proceedings against the quickly, whereas a ban would require primary legislation— Austrian Government in the next few weeks. and we are all well aware of the time scale that involves. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): am delighted to report that my right hon. Friend the The Minister talks about human rights, but what about Secretary of State is currently visiting the Pickering animal rights? Do this Government not care about the “slowing the flow” project at the request of North welfare of wild animals, which have no powers whatever Yorkshire county council. to exert for their own welfare? Would not the best Will my hon. Friend assure that the House that there possible course of action be for the Government to will not be a knee-jerk reaction banning all wild animals impose a ban and cope with any complications if they in circuses until we have taken the best possible legal arise later? What we want is action from the Government, advice? Is it not a little hypocritical of Parliament to not subordination to lawyers. receive, in the House of Commons, performers from circuses that use wild animals, and then to reject those Mr Paice: It is a sad but important fact that although very performers? this House passes laws, as indeed does the European Union, it is for the courts to interpret those laws. If the advice of our lawyers is that the courts might well Mr Paice: I am sure that my hon. Friend is right. Any interpret a ban as unlawful, we must heed that advice. Government must take serious heed of the legal advice That is what we have done, and that is why we have they are given. Any Ministers who wilfully ignore such produced just as tough a regime through the use of advice and risk the Government’s being taken to court licences—which, as I have said, could well mean that and losing are, in my view, neglecting their duty. We animals do not stay in circuses if their owners cannot have made the right decision: we have taken swift action meet the standards required. to deal with the issue of the welfare of circus animals, and I believe that that is the right course. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I must tell the Minister that this is just not good enough. Hiding behind 13 years Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): We are well of Labour failure is not a justification for maintaining aware that many Members on the Government Benches the present position. like torturing animals, but is the Government’s position that if someone in Europe challenges an issue, this Last Friday, DEFRA—the Department for error, Government—this Parliament—cannot act? I find it failure and rotten administration—issued a statement unbelievable that the Minister would take such a position. that was not correct, and I am not prepared to go along with the clarification that attempted to involve Austria. Does the Minister not accept that this barbaric activity Mr Paice: The fact is that we are part of the European has no place in civilised society? Union, and we are obliged to comply with European Union law. If the hon. Gentleman does not like that, it Mr Paice: I am more than happy to confirm my is a matter for him. As I said earlier—to some ridicule personal view that wild animals do not belong in circuses. from Opposition Members—our own Human Rights The real point, however, is that we are taking action Act has an influence on the position, and it was passed that we can take now and as a result of which, I suspect, by the Labour party, which ought to know what its few if any wild animals will remain in circuses. If people legislation says. are really so opposed to the use of wild animals in circuses, I suggest that they do not go to the circus. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I believe that a majority of my constituents would want a ban on wild Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): The animals in circuses. Will the Minister update the House hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) is wrong. In on how many wild animals he estimates are in circuses, 2009, when I was Minister of State at DEFRA, we and whether the number has been increasing or decreasing initiated a consultation, in response to which 94.5 % of in recent years? people said that they wanted the use of wild animals in circuses to be banned. We gave a commitment that we Mr Paice: The latest estimate is that there are 39 such would do that if we were returned to office. The Minister animals. Following the recent press exposure, there are is also—[Interruption.] Will Members allow me to ask now no elephants in our circuses. The last one, Nelly, my question? who we saw being very badly treated, is now in a home. In 2005, the European circus proprietors took action against the Austrian Government at Commission level. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Last Thursday, the When that action failed in 2007, they invoked the European Minister clearly stated to the House: ombudsman, who found in 2009 that the Commission “There have been recent press reports that the Austrian Government had been correct. I have been told by the Born Free have been taken to court for their attempt to ban wild animals in Foundation, Animal Defenders International and the circuses, so our Government can hardly recommend something RSPCA that the Austrian Government said yesterday that might not be legal.”—[Official Report, 12 May 2011; Vol. 527, that no legal action was pending. Will the Minister c. 1344.] clarify the position? There are only two possibilities: either the official gave him wrong advice, which I regret to say is not uncommon Mr Paice: I can confirm that officials from my and in which case the official should go, or the Minister Department have spoken to the attorney acting for the made the wrong judgment even though he had the facts, European Circus Association, that it is developing a in which case the Minister should go. Which is it? 501 Wild Animals (Circuses)19 MAY 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 502

Mr Paice: What I said, as quoted by the right hon. be able to meet those standards, in which case we will Gentleman, is entirely correct. There were, or are—[HON. have achieved a ban without having to pass primary MEMBERS: “Were!”] At that time, there were such newspaper legislation. reports, as I reported to the House, so that was a perfectly accurate statement. It now transpires that Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): The people those newspaper reports, and therefore my comments, in my constituency who protested when the Bobby were incorrect. That is why I have come to the House to Roberts circus appeared there would be stunned by the clarify the fact, which I have done. pathetic defence the Minister has put up today. Quite apart from the fact that he got the name of the elephant David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): Will my right wrong, can he tell us why we should rely on his defence hon. Friend pay tribute to zoos in this country, which when he cannot tell us which bit of the Human Rights have steadily improved conditions for wild animals? For Act enshrines the right to be cruel to animals? example, Twycross zoo in my constituency has wide open spaces for elephants, lions, tigers and giraffes. Mr Paice: That question does not really deserve an answer. The hon. Lady knows full well that no bit of the Mr Paice: I endorse my hon. Friend’s comments Human Rights Act says that, but other bits of the about the measures taken by our zoos. If animals cease Human Rights Act could be infringed by a ban on wild to be allowed in circuses, or if circuses are unable to animals in circuses. meet the licensing conditions, I suspect many animals will move to zoos. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I urge the Government to think again. A performing circus is Several hon. Members rose— simply no place for magnificent wild animals such as lions and tigers and the public overwhelmingly agree. Mr Speaker: Order. While paying absolutely no disrespect The Minister mentions the possible obstacles of primary to zoos, may I request that we return to the subject of legislation and legal challenge. May I put it to him that circuses? if he took the bold step of proposing a total ban, he would find a great deal of cross-party agreement for Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I have that primary legislation? Indeed, were there to be subsequent to say that I think the Minister’s position is an legal challenges in the courts, he would also have the extraordinarily cowardly one. May I remind him that support of the House. there was legal advice against a seal ban—a ban on the import of seal products—yet the courage of member Mr Paice: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her states led to that being overturned? There was also legal comments. Of course I appreciate, as does my right advice against the ban on the import of cat and dog fur, hon. Friend the Secretary of State, that there is very but, again, the courage of individual member states led strong public support for a ban as well as support to that being overturned. May we have a bit of spine across the parties in this House, but Ministers must take from this Government, and will they respect the wishes all the issues into account, including the legal advice to of the vast majority of people in this country and ban which I have referred and on which we believe that we now these wild animals in circuses? have acted. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): If the Minister will Mr Paice: The hon. Lady needs to reflect on the not introduce a ban, will he at least consider extending proceedings she has just mentioned, because they are the provisions of the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 so that very different from that which is under discussion now. circus animals have the same rights and protections as Those situations involved European member states taking zoo animals? action at European level, whereas this situation involves a single member state, and we believe that if we take this Mr Paice: I am happy to agree to consider that. action we may well be infringing European law, to Circus animals are, of course, covered by the Animal which we are committed. Welfare Act 2006, which enshrined the five freedoms, but if further issues arise from the 1981 Act I am more Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): A reference in Friday’s than happy to consider them. While I am on the subject statement to the legal context of a ban is relevant only if of licensing, Mr Speaker, may I say that although the the Department had been seriously considering a ban. hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) referred to Will the Minister therefore enlighten the House about local government, this is not a local government issue? that and tell us whether the Government would review The inspectors would be DEFRA inspectors appointed the situation and consider an outright ban if the legal by us. impediment could be overcome? Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I hope that the Mr Paice: I assure my hon. Friend that we considered Minister understands the frustration of Members and all options, because we had the benefit of the consultation our constituents when it seems sometimes that the that the previous Government had initiated and the script of prevarication is written by officials and does responses to it. Clearly, however, on the basis of the not change, whoever is in government. Will the Minister information and advice we received, we believed a ban at the very least publish the legal advice on which this was not the right way to proceed. We wanted to be able decision rests? to act swiftly, and we can do that through a very strict licensing regime. I must repeat to the House that very Mr Paice: I am happy to discuss that with my right tough standards will be imposed on how these animals hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who must make that can be kept, and it is possible that circus owners will not decision. 503 Wild Animals (Circuses) 19 MAY 2011 504

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): On whose authority Business of the House did the official at DEFRA phone up the lawyer of the European Circus Association to find out whether there was a preparation in the pipeline to make a legal challenge? 11.54 am Will he confirm that if that challenge continues to be in Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Will the Leader the pipeline, his Department will continue to do nothing, of the House give us the forthcoming business? which gives the association a perverse incentive to make it last as long as possible? The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young): The business for next week will be: Mr Paice: The answer to the first question is that my noble Friend Lord Henley is responsible for this policy MONDAY 23 MAY—Opposition day (16th allotted day). within the Department. The answer to the second question, There will be a debate on “Sentencing”, followed by a which is completely fallacious, is that we are not doing debate on “Policing and Crime”. Both debates will arise nothing. We have already made it clear that we will on an Opposition motion. introduce a tough licensing regime soon. TUESDAY 24 MAY—Motion relating to eurozone financial assistance, followed by a pre-recess Adjournment debate, Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): the format of which has been specified by the Backbench Is the Minister not aware that advisers, including legal Business Committee. The business for this day has been ones, advise and Ministers decide? In reaching this nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. decision today, he appears weak-kneed. He has agreed Colleagues will wish to be reminded that the House to see one of his hon. Friends afterwards on the question will meet at 11.30 am on this day. of legal advice, but perhaps he could include an Opposition Member in that meeting. There can be nothing in the The business for the week commencing 6 June will legal advice that is remotely binding on this issue and he include: is failing to respond to the feeling in the country and in MONDAY 6JUNE—The House will not be sitting. the House, which goes way beyond the number of TUESDAY 7JUNE—Second Reading of the terrorism animals involved. It is a question of principle. prevention and investigation measures Bill. WEDNESDAY 8JUNE—There will be a debate on an Mr Paice: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s point, humble address relating to the Duke of Edinburgh’s and of course Ministers must make the final decision. 90th birthday, followed by Opposition day (17th allotted We accept that responsibility. Advice to Ministers can day) (half-day). There will be a half-day debate on an sometimes be fairly evenly balanced and sometimes Opposition motion, subject to be announced. pretty heavily balanced in favour of one side or the other. The outcome of the ministerial decision is likely THURSDAY 9JUNE—Consideration of Lords amendments to depend on that. to the Postal Services Bill, followed by a general debate on the Munro report and its implications for child Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab) rose— protection. FRIDAY 10 JUNE—Private Members’ Bills. Mr Speaker: Order. It is usually a great pleasure to I should also like to inform the House that the hear the right hon. Lady, but I fear that she was not in business in Westminster Hall for Thursday 9 June 2011 the Chamber at the start of these exchanges, so we will will be: have to wait to hear her views on a subsequent occasion. THURSDAY 9JUNE—A debate on the Scottish Affairs Committee report on postal services in Scotland.

Hilary Benn: I am grateful to the Leader of the House for that reply.After the performance we have just witnessed from the Minister at the Dispatch Box it seems pretty clear that DEFRA is a Department in special measures. I begin by asking whether we may have a statement on the improvement plan that the Government plan to put in place to improve its performance? On the terrorism prevention and investigation measures Bill, assuming that this is the Bill that will provide for an extension in the period for which people may be detained, will the Leader of the House assure us that the promise that there would be full consultation with the Opposition on the drawing up of the Bill has been kept? On the date of the next Queen’s Speech, following our recent exchanges, will the Leader of the House at least assure us that it will not take place during purdah next April? I ask because it is now becoming increasingly clear that deciding on a date has difficulties for the Government, which might explain why the week before last the Leader of the House decided to answer a question about the date of the Easter recess that I had not asked. 505 Business of the House19 MAY 2011 Business of the House 506

[Hilary Benn] apparently cheered to the rafters at last night’s meeting of the 1922 Committee, says the very opposite. He told Will the Leader of the House tell us when the Bill will the King’s Fund yesterday that be introduced to enshrine the commitment to give “real choice, means that providers will be…competing for patients.” 0.7% of our national wealth in aid to those living in It is now clear that the longer the Government’s pause poverty, and will he explain why the Prime Minister has lasts, the more uncertainty there is about the future of clearly failed to persuade his Defence Secretary that the NHS. Nobody knows who is in charge or what is that is the right policy? Is it a sign of what the Tories going on—it is a complete shambles. When is the Prime really think about development? Will the Leader of the Minister going to get a grip? House also join me in condemning the remarks of the former head of the armed forces, Lord Guthrie, who was reported yesterday as calling for aid spending to be Sir George Young: We are committed to legislating on switched to defence, adding: the 0.7%—something that the right hon. Gentleman’s Government never did. We are the first Government in “We have not got time to muck about”. history—and, indeed in the G20—to set out clear, specific Helping to save children’s lives is not mucking about. plans for achieving that 0.7% from 2013, and that We see that the other place will have a debate on the commitment will be enshrined in law. That was the proposals for its reform published this week. Are the commitment we made and we propose to keep it. We Government planning to have a debate in this House are keeping our word and that has brought us respect before the summer recess and in Government time? throughout the world. I hope that we will have support May we have a debate on child poverty following the from the Opposition when we introduce the Bill. warning given this week that 300,000 children will be I think that the right hon. Gentleman has misunderstood pushed below the poverty line in the next three years which Bill we are introducing on our first day back. It is because of the Government’s spending cuts? The Institute the Bill that replaces control orders with temporary for Fiscal Studies said that after falling to its lowest terrorism prevention and investigation measures; it is level in 25 years—that is the difference made by a not the Bill on the period of detention. Of course, we Labour Government—child poverty is likely to rise want to consult the Opposition on the Bill. The measure sharply owing to the Chancellor’s decision to cut benefits he referred to is in the Protection of Freedoms Bill, and tax credits. which is currently going through the House. When will the Justice Secretary clarify the Government’s I am amazed that the right hon. Gentleman has policy on rape and sentencing following the utter confusion raised the subject of the House of Lords. Labour was in of the past 24 hours? Having toured the TV and radio office for 13 years but failed to deliver its manifesto studios yesterday, offending more and more people with commitments. Now that we are doing that, I hope that every interview he gave, should he not come to the we will have Labour’s support. We will have a debate in House to apologise and explain what on earth is going Government time on the proposals and I very much on? hope that instead of sniping from the sidelines and making cheap political points, the Opposition will engage Yesterday, the Prime Minister categorically denied with the issue and help us to deliver not only our any link with Mark Britnell, the man who last weekend manifesto commitment but Labour’s. said that the national health service On child poverty, I reject the assertions that the right “will be shown no mercy″. hon. Gentleman has just made. There will be an opportunity Will the Leader of the House therefore explain why it is when we debate the Welfare Reform Bill to have a reported that Mr Britnell was invited to attend a meeting longer discussion on that subject. of senior experts in Downing Street earlier this month by none other than the Prime Minister’s own special On the issue of rape, the right hon. Gentleman will adviser on health? know that his party has chosen the subject of sentencing for debate on Monday. Rape is a very serious crime with May we have a statement from the Health Secretary appalling consequences for victims. The Justice Secretary following the comments made over the weekend by did not intend to give the impression otherwise and that Professor Steve Field? He was asked by the Prime is why he has written to the Radio 5 listener to apologise Minister to review the NHS plans—I take it that does for his comments and to invite her to a meeting. We will make him an adviser—and his conclusion is damning. set out in the debate on Monday the way in which we Professor Field told The Guardian that the Bill’s proposals are determined to drive up the conviction rate for are “destabilising”. rapists and the support that we are giving to rape When will the Prime Minister clarify exactly who is centres throughout the country with an extra grant of now deciding the Government’s policy on the Health £3.5 million annually for the next three years, giving Bill? This week, the Deputy Prime Minister issued an rape support centres the certainty that they need. ultimatum regarding his own Bill—that really is a first. On health, I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman He said that the responsibility of Monitor for competition chose to raise this subject in the week when a National will have to be dropped. Indeed, in a Lib Dem policy Audit Office report has revealed the systematic waste of document that he has signed, the Deputy Prime Minister money on Labour’s disastrous NHS information technology says that projects in the previous Parliament—£6.4 billion with “the decision to establish Monitor as an ‘economic regulator’ was very little benefit to patients. clearly a misjudgement”. On the other issue of differences between the coalition That is extraordinary from someone who cleared the parties, it is worth reminding the House of the vicious Bill, put his name to the Bill and voted for it on Second battles that were fought within the Labour party between Reading. Meanwhile, the Health Secretary, who was the former Health Secretary, Alan Milburn, and the 507 Business of the House19 MAY 2011 Business of the House 508 then Chancellor, which threatened to destabilise the Government introduced that Committee—something entire Government and which left the then Health that the previous Government failed to do. I stand by Secretary, according to the extraordinary testimony of the commitment we made to implement Wright in full one of his Cabinet colleagues, “annihilated”. From a and allow 35 days a Session, which works out at roughly party that annihilates its own Health Ministers, I am one day a week. That remains my intention and that will not minded to take any advice on the resolution of apply to the longer Session, so there will continue to be differences of policy. roughly one day a week. There may be a few weeks of Finally, there is growing concern about how comfortably famine but there may then be a few weeks of flood to the right hon. Gentleman has taken to the Opposition compensate. She mentioned Thursdays, but we have Benches. In a recent interview with The House Magazine, allocated her a Tuesday next week. when he was asked what it was like not being a Minister, he replied: Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): May I urge the Leader “You learn to adapt very quickly. I’m not pining.” of the House to ensure that Back-Bench time is not Has Labour realised that there is little prospect of any taken up by any more debates about MPs’ pay and return to office? expenses? However, I would welcome further clarification from him about the written statement he made today Several hon. Members rose— about Members’ pay. Will he urge the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority to be mindful of Mr Speaker: Order. As usual, a great many right hon. the point that we have voted for a freeze in MPs pay to and hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye but I put us in line with millions of public sector workers remind the House that there is pressure on time with across the country? That must be at the centre of any a further statement to follow and two important and determination of discussions going forward. well-subscribed debates under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee, so there is a premium Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. on brevity. The background is that had we not had that debate Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): On Report of the back in March, we would automatically have received Localism Bill this week, Back Benchers had about an increase. The House voted unanimously to reject 40 minutes to debate the first group of amendments, in that and to resolve that it should have no pay increase which there were eight new clauses and 156 amendments, for the next two years. We have now implemented that and 25 minutes to debate the second group, which part of the Constitutional Reform and Governance contained a similar number of measures. When we were Act 2010 and have handed over responsibility to IPSA. in opposition my right hon. Friend was the first to I have no doubt that it will have in mind the strong view criticise the Government for allowing such an appalling of the House that our pay should be frozen for two lack of time for debate on Report. What is he going to years. do to address the shameful amount of time being allocated to such debates? John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The finance director of AssetCo resigned on Tuesday, its Sir George Young: I remind my hon. Friend that in share price has dropped by 90% to 5p and the general the last Session of the previous Parliament, not once view is that it is going into administration. AssetCo did we get two days to debate the remaining stages of a owns the engines of the London fire service and is also Bill. The Government allocated two days for the remaining part of the consortium bidding to train firefighters. stages of the Localism Bill and we are going to do What is happening could put fire safety in London at exactly the same with more Bills that are in the pipeline. risk, so may we have a ministerial statement urgently to We are determined to allow the House adequate time. I see what Government measures are being put in place say to my hon. Friend that I understand that the Public to protect Londoners? Bill Committee had the opportunity to discuss all the amendments and new clauses and to conclude its Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman raises a deliberations slightly ahead of time. serous issue that I will draw to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): Until Local Government. One of his top priorities, in relation recently, Back Benchers have been allocated roughly to the London fire service, will be maintaining safety. one day a week of time in the Chamber, which has almost always been on a Thursday, but I will leave that for another day. In the past couple of months, for Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): May various reasons, we have had nothing like one day a we have a debate on the Cultural Olympiad arts festival, week and as a result quite a long list of interesting which the brilliant IF festival in Milton Keynes is debates is stacking up. I know that the Government will supposed to be part of? There are concerns that the be as keen as we are to hold those debates on the Floor Olympiad festival will be increasingly based in London. of the House, so will the Leader of the House tell us Does the Leader of the House not agree that such a what allocation will be made available to Back Benchers festival should be open to the whole United Kingdom? for debates in the Chamber between now and the summer recess and how he plans to let us catch up a little on Sir George Young: My hon. Friend makes a forceful Back-Bench time in the Chamber? point and might like to apply for a debate in Westminster Hall or an Adjournment debate. I will draw his remarks Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of her question and for her work in chairing the Backbench State for Culture, Media and Sport, who will respond Business Committee. I remind the House that the coalition to him. 509 Business of the House19 MAY 2011 Business of the House 510

Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): It is reported those in the homes concerned and their relatives. We this week that Sir Jeremy Greenstock, former adviser to will do all we can to maintain the quality of care to Tony Blair during the Iraq war, has taken up an advisory which they are entitled. consultancy post with the oil industry in Iraq. He was advised to delay doing so for six months but started Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I warmly work after three, in clear breach of the rules governing welcome the confirmation from the Leader of House former civil servants taking up business interests. A that the House will have a debate on the draft Bill on number of former Ministers have also taken up lucrative House of Lords reform. Given the Bill’s enormous jobs in industries for which they used to be responsible constitutional importance, will he please confirm that in government. May we have a full debate on the when we come to debate it we will consider it in all its revolving door and how we can stop it revolving? stages on the Floor of the House without any guillotine?

Sir George Young: On the hon. Gentleman’s second Sir George Young: It will certainly be constitutional point, the ministerial code was tightened last May. legislation and it will certainly be taken on the Floor of Former Ministers are not allowed to lobby for two years the House, so I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. and are bound to accept the advice of the Advisory He has not been in the House quite as long as I have, Committee on Business Appointments. I will draw the but he will know that at times debate can be protracted attention of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to and that on certain occasions it is necessary to curtail the remarks about Sir Jeremy Greenstock. debate in order to make progress with the rest of a Bill, so I cannot guarantee that at no stage in the process of scrutiny of constitutional legislation will the House be Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Last night, with invited to come to a decision. I rest on what I said in fellow Warwickshire MPs, I met members of the Coventry response to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley and Warwickshire chamber of commerce. One of the (Philip Davies). We are determined that the House overriding issues discussed was business regulation and should have adequate time to consider serious legislation red tape. Although the business people were extremely and believe that we are already performing far better heartened by the proposals put forward in the Budget than our predecessors in that respect. to reduce regulation and red tape, they were dismayed by the current proposals to extend paternity rights. If Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) we are to continue to drive new job creation through (PC): Following two damning reports from the Welsh businesses, is it not time for tangible reductions in Affairs Committee and the Culture, Media and Sport business regulation and red tape and will the Leader of Committee, may we have an urgent debate in Government the House consider a debate on reducing business time on the unsatisfactory situation facing S4C, the regulation? Welsh language TV broadcaster?

Sir George Young: On the question of paternity rights, Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman may have an there will be legislation in due course to change provision opportunity to develop the argument further when and my hon. Friend will have an opportunity to comment considering the Public Bodies Bill. Debates on Select at that stage. We are reducing the stock of regulation Committee reports are now the province of the hon. through the red tape challenge. I was interested to hear Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), about his meeting with the Coventry and Warwickshire who chairs the Backbench Business Committee, so he chamber of commerce. We have an ambitious programme may like to present himself at 1 o’clock on a Tuesday to reduce the flow of new regulation and are inviting the afternoon at her salon. public to suggest existing regulations that could be scrapped or improved and then Government Departments Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Will the Leader of the will have to review their entire set of regulations. House give time to discuss the important matter of the process of recruiting a new Clerk of the House of Commons? As a member of the Administration Committee, Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): Will the I received a copy of the advert for that post yesterday. Leader of the House refer his colleagues in the Department At a time when the Government are bearing down so of Health to the situation of Southern Cross Healthcare, hard on salaries and bonuses in the public and private a company that owns care homes for the elderly, as sectors, when there are job losses and when the Chancellor 30,000 elderly people now face a very uncertain future? of the Exchequer has to approve all salaries in excess of The company is in a parlous financial condition. It that of the Prime Minister, I wonder whether the appropriate would be intolerable to see 30,000 elderly people put assessment has taken place of the roles involved in the out on the streets. We need to know that the Health Clerk’s job and whether, in fact, the residence, the Ministers know about this situation and have a plan B. uniform allowance and the £200,000 salary should be subject to some sort of discussion, along with an assessment Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. of the criteria, rather than there being an automatic The top priority must be the continuing welfare of the assumption about that. residents in the homes to which he refers. My right hon. Friend the Health Secretary and his Ministers are in Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I contact with Southern Cross Healthcare. He will continue have now seen the advertisement to which she refers, to keep in close touch with the situation and will work which I understand was approved by you, Mr Speaker. with local authorities, the Care Quality Commission The salary of the Clerk of the House and chief executive and other providers to ensure an effective response that is linked to judicial salaries and is in the permanent delivers protection to everyone involved. We know that secretary band, which reflects the Clerk’s position as the speculation in recent days has been stressful for independent constitutional adviser to the Speaker and 511 Business of the House19 MAY 2011 Business of the House 512 the House. The Clerk is appointed by the Crown, by Sir George Young: That particular issue was debated Letters Patent, and is not an employee of the House of on Report, so the hon. Gentleman has had an opportunity Commons Commission. However, it is right that all to discuss it. public bodies, including the House of Commons, should take robust decisions on their expenditure at the current Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): Yesterday time and I support any steps to do that. the associate parliamentary group on manufacturing held a discussion with the Skills Commission on how Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): Further we can reduce the skills gap in the sector. In my constituency to the earlier question on Backbench Business Committee we have access to an excellent apprenticeship scheme debates, on 4 February the House stated clearly that it through Warwickshire college, and we have two world-class wanted the Government to consider action on legal universities nearby, Warwick and Coventry, but we need loan sharking. On 14 February, 20 Members from across to do more, so will the Leader of the House provide the House wrote to the Ministers responsible to ask for Government time for a debate about how we can close a meeting to make progress on the matter and to look at the skills gap and encourage young people to take up how we could clarify the intention. Despite repeated careers in manufacturing in order to bring about sustainable requests and letters, nearly three months later no response economic growth? at all has been received from the Department responsible. I know that I cannot ask the Leader of the House for Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend help to get Wonga-man to account for his actions or to and very encouraged to hear what is happening in his get the Wellcome Trust to account for its actions in constituency. Manufacturing is vital to economic growth, investing in this high-cost credit industry and the impact and the Government are taking a number of steps to it has on my constituents in Walthamstow and those in support that growth, including, for example, through communities across the country, but I hope I can ask apprenticeships, with 250,000 more available over the him for a new debate on holding Ministers accountable next few years. We are also funding an organisation for their behaviour towards MPs on such matters and called STEMNET, which provides resources for students, their continued refusal to protect the poorest consumers teachers and professionals. We are determined to rebalance in Britain. the economy, to drive up the role of manufacturing and to build on the measures that we have already announced. Sir George Young: If the hon. Lady, along with other MPs, has asked for a meeting with a ministerial colleague, Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): Professor Steve my view is that she is entitled to have it. I will convey Field is carrying out an independent listening exercise that view to the ministerial colleague concerned, the on the NHS and reporting to the Prime Minister. The identity of whom she very tactfully withheld. Health Committee, of which I am a member, would like Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): We have a Professor Field to come to give evidence, but I understand Prime Minister who is committed to the health service, that that has been fiercely resisted if not vetoed by the a Health Secretary who is the most experienced Member Department of Health, so I should be grateful for the of the House on health matters and a Bill before the help of the Leader of the House in resolving the issue House that has been approved by the Cabinet, yet we and answering the question of whether Professor Field have Ministers who seem to be opposing what they acts independently and is therefore able to come to originally supported. May we have a statement on collective the Select Committee, or whether he is an agent of the responsibility and whether it applies only to Conservative Department—which then calls into question the Ministers? independence of the listening exercise. We really need to get to the bottom of this. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that very helpful question. In my response to the Sir George Young: The normal routine is for Ministers shadow Leader of the House I drew attention to discussions to appear before Select Committees, because they are on a health Bill that took place within a one-party ultimately responsible for policy. There were certainly Government. I think that it is entirely legitimate when occasions when the previous Government asked Ministers there is a coalition for the two parties to have a discussion. to appear before a Committee despite the Committee There is a pause in the legislation. The Bill will be going asking for somebody else, but I will make some inquiries ahead on Report once that consultation is concluded. about the issue to which the hon. Lady refers, contact We will adhere to the broad principles set out in the my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health coalition agreement on the future of the health legislation. and draw her concern to his attention. I remind my hon. Friend that we have decided to put more money into the NHS—there are now 2,500 more Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Following the doctors in the NHS—whereas the Labour party is cutting tragic death of my constituent Ricky Burlton, aged 20, the NHS in Wales. at the hands of a driver who had no legal right to be in the country and no driving licence, but who was able to Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Further procure insurance without the insurance company to the earlier question from the hon. Member for Shipley undertaking or being able to undertake any checks for a (Philip Davies) about the inadequate time made available licence, will the Leader of the House please find time so on Report of the Localism Bill, may we have a debate in that we can debate the matter and see what steps we can Government time about the financial cost and the take to resolve this rather fatal flaw in process? implications for democracy of the Secretary of State’s appalling plans to impose a non-elected executive mayor Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear about the loophole on the people of Birmingham without a shred of evidence to which my hon. Friend refers and of the death of his that they support such a form of dictatorship? constituent. I will draw my hon. Friend’s remarks to the 513 Business of the House19 MAY 2011 Business of the House 514

[Sir George Young] clear of demonstrators for the first time in 10 years, so when does he expect the square to be open to the attention of the Secretary of State for Transport and general public and what is happening about the pavement? ask him to write to him. I cannot provide time for an immediate debate, but he may like to apply for a debate Sir George Young: I applaud my hon. Friend’s continuing in Westminster Hall to explore the issue further. concern about Parliament square. He will know that the Greater London authority was successful in clearing Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): The Finucane the green, which is now being restored, and that Westminster family have spent the past 22 years in unbearable grief, council is now taking action to remove the encampment not knowing why Pat Finucane was shot 14 times in along the pavement, which I hope produces some results. front of them. Given the historic visit of the Queen to The real answer, however, is the Police Reform and the Republic of Ireland, would it be possible for a Social Responsibility Bill, which is now in another place statement to be made to the House on when there will and provides for the necessary powers to achieve a be an independent inquiry into Pat Finucane’s murder? better balance between freedom of expression on the one hand and the right to protect Parliament square on Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady and the other. I very much regret that it is becoming increasingly understand her concern. I will pass her question on to like a shanty town, and I hope it will not be too long my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern before we can restore its iconic value. Ireland and ask him to write to her. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): My right the Leader of the House urgently consider more attention hon. Friend will be well aware of the widespread concern and debates on China? China has—many people think—a throughout the UK about the Maritime and Coastguard malign influence on the world economy, treats its citizens Agency’s proposals to modernise the coastguard service, barbarically and locks up even artists. Is it not about and today we have seen a lot of speculation in the press. time that we took China, and its implications for world Will he invite the Secretary of State for Transport to order, seriously? come to the House to make a statement?

Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman may have an concern and, indeed, other Members’ concern about opportunity at Foreign Office questions on 14 June to the future of the coastguard service, something that has raise his concerns. The Government are concerned about been debated on several occasions. The Transport the treatment of Weiwei: we think his detention without Committee is currently visiting Stornoway, and my charge is unacceptable, and we have made representations right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport through the Foreign Secretary. It is important that will want to reflect on its report. The review of the China observes the proper standards of human rights service started under the previous Administration, and to which all civilised countries ought to be signed up. the Government are understandably reluctant to comment on the speculation in the press. We will respond in due Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): The Oasis course, have another look at the reorganisation proposals Academy Shirley Park in my constituency is one of the and reveal our conclusions to the House before the most improved schools in the country. May we have a summer recess. debate about the extension of the academies programme under this Government, in line with Tony Blair’s original Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): vision, as it is improving the life chances of young May we have a debate about this country’s ability to people from deprived backgrounds in all our constituencies? respond effectively in the event of a major terrorist incident? On Tuesday I called a debate in Westminster Sir George Young: I welcome the progress being Hall about the future of Forensic Science Service, something made with the establishment of academies, following the Leader of the House may remember me raising at the legislation that we put on to the statute book. I previous business questions. MPs from all parts of the should personally welcome such a debate, which I hope House who attended the debate raised many serious would have cross-party support, given that many people concerns about the Government’s plans to wind down who were in the Labour party strongly support our the FSS, plans that I believe would leave the country academies programme. I hope also that all hon. Members without the capacity to deal effectively in the aftermath will support those schools in their constituencies that of a major terrorist incident and would weaken the are in the process of becoming academies. fight against crime. The Government simply need to look again at the issue. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): May we have a debate in Government time about Government policy on singing Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman may have an “Jerusalem” at weddings? If a heterosexual couple get opportunity on the first day back, when I have announced married in church, many clergy will refuse to allow it to a debate on the Second Reading of a terrorism Bill, to be sung, because it is not a hymn addressed to God; if a raise his concerns, or he may be able to raise them in straight couple get married in a civil wedding, they are a debate on Monday dealing with police and crime. I point blank not allowed it, because it is a religious song; hope that he will have an opportunity to share those if, however, a gay couple have a civil partnership, under concerns with the House quite soon. Government plans they will be allowed to sing it. So can we make sure that “Jerusalem” is not just reserved for David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): May I congratulate homosexuals? my right hon. Friend on his efforts to clear Parliament square? Is he aware that the lawn there is now completely Mr Speaker: I want to hear the Leader’s reply! 515 Business of the House19 MAY 2011 Business of the House 516

Sir George Young: I think that “Jerusalem” should be Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): May we have a debate sung on every possible occasion. on falling unemployment? In Harlow in the past three months, 200 more jobs have been created and Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): How do unemployment has fallen to 2,400 from a peak, under you follow that? Labour, of well over 3,000. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way to bring jobs back to Harlow May we have a statement about the future of the NHS and elsewhere is by boosting apprenticeships and cutting Blood and Transplant service in view of the campaign taxes for businesses, rather than the policies of Labour to suggest that the Government are looking to privatise Members? it? As I suspect that this is yet another myth that is being pushed out about the NHS, it would be helpful to Sir George Young: I agree. I am sure the whole House have a statement to put it firmly back in its box. will welcome the drop in unemployment that was reported yesterday, and I am pleased to hear what is happening Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right. This is a in Harlow. We have undertaken a number of measures myth, as there are no plans to privatise the NHS Blood to reduce youth unemployment, in particular. We have and Transplant service, which will remain in the public announced a new innovation fund with £10 million a sector. year to fund organisations working with young people through social finance models and a package of additional Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): support for 16 to 17-year-olds’ jobseeker’s allowance, McMillan nursery in Hull, which has been rated outstanding including more adviser support, access to work clubs by Ofsted, will close on 10 June because of the cuts to and work experience. I hope that we can build on these children’s centres by the Lib Dems. Can we have a measures and make much more progress in Harlow and debate in Government time on the reality of the policy other constituencies. that the Government keep talking about—early investment in our young people and children—and what it is doing Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I should like to ask a for our poorer communities around the country? further question regarding Baroness Warsi. Business before pleasure, however, and I must ask about the impact of compulsory water metering on gardeners—the Sir George Young: The Government have put in water tax. Last Thursday, I asked the hapless Secretary enough money to maintain the network of Sure Start of State for Department for Environment, Food and centres. I understand that the hon. Lady’s party is now Rural Affairs why she was even considering compulsory in control of Hull city council, so perhaps she would water metering, and her reply completely avoided the like to address her remarks to that council. subject. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement next week—the week, incidentally, of the Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): May I ask the Chelsea flower show—in which the Secretary of State Leader of the House for a debate on the Olympic can categorically rule out compulsory domestic water legacy? This week it was announced that the Olympic metering? torch will travel through the country and stay in many cities and towns overnight. Alas, the county of Northamptonshire Sir George Young: I will draw the right hon. Gentleman’s is missing from that list. We are feeling a bit sorry for concern to my right hon. Friend’s attention and ask her ourselves because not too much of the Olympic legacy to write to him about our policy on compulsory water is flowing our way, and I would very much like to debate metering. I am sure that he shares the concern of that in this place. Members on both sides of the House about doing all we can to drive down water consumption and conserve Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s water, and I hope that he will not rule out measures disappointment that the proposed route does not go such as the one that he has touched on. through his constituency or, apparently, his county. I will draw his remarks to the attention of the Olympic Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Last weekend, committee that is responsible for the route and see my youngest son went on his first cubs camp, and I went whether there is any chance, at this late stage, of amending along as a helper. However, I was not able to stay at the it. camp overnight because I do not have an up-to-date Criminal Records Bureau check for the cubs. That is a pity, as I have helped out at the same Cheshire cubs Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The regional development branch, which my older son went to, for the past seven agencies provided an effective and timely response to years. May we have a debate on the over-the-top CRB sudden localised challenges in the economy. With the requirements that can be such a disincentive to volunteering? demise of the RDAs, will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement to spell out how the Government Sir George Young: I would like to find time for such a will respond to such challenges in future? debate, and perhaps the Back-bench Business Committee could provide it. One of the unforeseen consequences Sir George Young: We have debated on several occasions of trying to protect children by introducing CRB checks the Government’s plans to replace the RDAs with local is that fewer people are then able to help children enterprise partnerships, so there have been opportunities through voluntary organisations such as the scouts. We to have that discussion. I hope that the LEPs will have to try to get the right balance that gives children respond with enthusiasm to projects in his constituency the protection to which they are entitled but does not that deserve support and that they will be more nimble- discourage volunteers such as my hon. Friend from minded and flexible bodies than the RDAs. playing an active part in their activities. 517 Business of the House19 MAY 2011 Business of the House 518

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): If the Government Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): The are to help to make substantial progress at the United Leader of the House will be aware of the concern about Nations framework convention on climate change in the activities in protest groups of undercover police December, they will have to get their submissions in before officers such as Mark Kennedy. A review is being carried the summer recess. May we have a debate in Government out by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. Will time on the Floor of the House before the recess to the Leader of the House ensure that there is a statement discuss the UK’s contribution to Durban? to the House once that report becomes available?

Sir George Young: We have just had Energy and Sir George Young: I will give my right hon. Friend Climate Change questions; I do not know whether the who is replying to Monday’s debate on the police notice hon. Gentleman had an opportunity to ask that question that the hon. Lady has raised this issue and see whether then. I will certainly undertake to ensure that any we can deal with it in the opening or closing speeches. submission is made in good time, and I will pass on his concerns to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): On Monday, the Government published the long-awaited report on the process of compensation for Equitable Life Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): May we have policyholders, thereby honouring another part of our a debate on the role of the private sector in job creation—an pledge properly to compensate those people who were issue that goes to the heart of the Government’s strategy so scandalously treated by Labour. However, that weighty for sustainable growth? Given that the Office for National tome has given rise to several concerns among MPs in Statistics has announced 77,000 more jobs in the private all parts of the House, and I wonder whether there will sector, it seems a timely moment to discuss the progress be an opportunity for a statement or a debate in the being made to rebalance the economy. House so that the Minister can respond on the record to those concerns for the benefit of the wider public. Sir George Young: My hon. Friend raises an important issue. Private sector employment increased by 449,000 Sir George Young: I understand the concern of between December 2009-10, and public sector employment policyholders to which my hon. Friend refers. I cannot fell by 132,000, so that rebalancing is beginning to take find time for a debate, but it strikes me that he could shape. If my hon. Friend looks at the Office for Budget raise the issue at the next round of Treasury questions Responsibility report, he will see that it forecasts an or put in for a debate in Westminster Hall, where there increase of 900,000 jobs over the next four years, with have been several debates on Equitable Life. I am sure 1.4 million in the private sector, which more than that several other colleagues would like to attend such a counterbalances the fall in employment in the public debate. sector. Rebalancing is on its way. Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Further to the right hon. Gentleman’s answer to the hon. Member Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on the coastguard op): An answer to a recent parliamentary question review, the consultation closed earlier this month, but highlighted the fact that more than 1,200 young people was extended by the Secretary of State for Transport to under the age of 18 serving in our armed forces had allow the Transport Committee to carry out its investigation, sustained some form of injury during a 12-month period. which is very positive. However, it is clear from speculation In the light of this and other concerns about the recruitment in The Times this morning and from the reassuring of under-18s, can we find time to have a debate on this, statements in Westminster Hall from the Under-Secretary either in the context of the Armed Forces Bill or in of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Hemel another way? Hempstead (Mike Penning), who has responsibility for shipping, that the proposals will not proceed in the Sir George Young: I did not announce the business form in which they were consulted on. May we have an for the rest of June, but I anticipate that we will take the updated ministerial statement on what conclusions have remaining stages of the Armed Forces Bill, when there already been drawn and an assurance that the original will be an opportunity for the hon. Lady to make her decision to report back to the House before the summer point. recess will be adhered to?

Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Small parish concern. The Under-Secretary of State for Transport, councils remain very concerned about the decision by my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to force them to (Mike Penning), who has responsibility for the coastguard pay their parish clerks through the pay-as-you-earn service, will be giving evidence to the Transport Committee system. May we have a debate about how we can in the relatively near future. That will be an opportunity exempt small parish councils from this legislation? for such questions to be answered.

Sir George Young: Like my hon. Friend, I have a large Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Will Her number of small parish councils in my constituency. It Majesty’s Government table their amendments to the is very important that they are not discouraged in any Armed Forces Bill in good time, and will the Leader of way by unnecessary bureaucracy. I will share his concern the House confirm that those amendments will enshrine with the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and ask the military covenant in law, as the Prime Minister him to write to my hon. Friend outlining our policy on wishes, and not simply beef up the report on the covenant, PAYE and parish clerks. as the Ministry of Defence is seeking? 519 Business of the House 19 MAY 2011 520

Sir George Young: We had a statement on that matter McNulty Report and West Coast Rail this week, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will have read that exchange. Of course the Government will want to table any necessary amendments in good time 12.43 pm for the House to see them and, if necessary, for Members The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip to table their own amendments. Hammond): With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the publication today of Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Given the Sir Roy McNulty’s independent study into value for poor response to the Deputy Prime Minister’s puny money in the rail industry, and to update the House reforms of the House of Lords, may we have a debate about the west coast franchise process. on whether it would be better to pass this matter to another Minister who can make more progress? Sir Roy’s report notes that UK rail has enjoyed a revival in recent years, with strong and resilient growth in overall passenger numbers and in passenger satisfaction, Sir George Young: No. and huge improvements in reliability and safety. The Government want Britain’s railways to continue to prosper Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): and have demonstrated by their actions their commitment May we have an urgent debate on trends in employment, to them. Despite the difficult fiscal climate, we have as it is clear from the latest figures that the overall allocated funding to complete Crossrail and Thameslink, situation is far more complex than the headlines might and to support the upgrade of the London underground. suggest? In my constituency of North West Leicestershire, We have announced electrification on the great western there are currently 1,513 claimants, who make up 3.3% of main line and in north-west England. We have resumed the economically active population. There has been a the intercity express programme to improve reliability, welcome fall of 10% in that figure over the last year. It comfort and journey times on the east coast and Great would be helpful if the debate compared the overall fall Western main lines. We have given the go-ahead to the in unemployment in the quarter to March this year with Ordsall chord project in Manchester and the Swindon the number of people on jobseeker’s allowance. to Kemble redoubling. We have confirmed the purchase of more than 2,000 new rail vehicles for Thameslink, Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right to say that Crossrail and other franchises, and the cascading of one has to drill down into the figures to get a truer 100s more. Last but not least, we have begun the High picture. The rise in JSA payments, to which he referred, Speed 2 consultation process. was due in part to new measures to move single parents whose children are attending school off employment But Sir Roy made another, less welcome, finding. and support allowance and on to JSA. The important Spending on the passenger railway has increased by figures are the continuing fall in unemployment and the 60% in real terms since 1996-97—that is more than continuing rise in employment. £4 billion—and despite significant passenger growth, unit costs in 2009 were almost exactly the same in real Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): terms as in 1996. Therefore, UK rail is now up to A 19-year-old constituent of mine, Paul Lawrence, has 40% more expensive per passenger mile than the railways been on remand since February. He is autistic and has of our European competitors. Allowing for unavoidable been diagnosed with Asperger’s. He has tried to hang differences, Sir Roy estimates that UK rail costs are himself and has taken an overdose while in prison, and 20% to 30% higher than they should be, and that yet he has been kept locked in his cell, until recently in potential savings of between £740 million and £1.05 billion isolation, and is only let out for meals. His mother is a year could be found by 2018-19 without any reduction constantly worried about his safety. May we have a in services. Those savings, added to the savings that debate about how vulnerable people are treated while Network Rail is committed to achieving up to 2014 and on remand? the savings that Sir Roy expects the regulator to seek from Network Rail over the period to 2019, should Sir George Young: There will be a debate on sentencing largely close the efficiency gap. on Monday, during which the hon. Lady may have an Many of Sir Roy’s recommendations are directed to opportunity to debate that matter. Some of the decisions the industry, and the open and inclusive process that the on whether somebody should be on remand are decisions study adopted means that some of them are already for the courts, and it is important that they retain their being implemented. The industry has come together to independence. form a rail delivery group to provide the leadership that Sir Roy noted was lacking in the past. Network Rail has Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Leader of the House announced its plans to devolve significant autonomy to and colleagues for their co-operation. route managers across the network, starting with the Wessex and Scottish regions. Sir Roy’s remit, which was set by my predecessor and the Office of Rail Regulation which co-sponsored the study, was narrowly focused on the cost base of the railway. He makes a large number of recommendations. Over the coming months, the Government will consider the recommendations that are directed to them, and they will deliver their response later this year. Many of the recommendations on franchises reflect the changes that the Government have already announced. In addition, I can confirm today that my Department will accept 521 McNulty Report and West Coast 19 MAY 2011 McNulty Report and West Coast 522 Rail Rail [Mr Philip Hammond] and proper to consult on the proposals again, starting today and ending on 17 August. As a consequence of Sir Roy’s recommendation that it should conduct a full that decision, I can inform the House that the new review of fares policy, which will include addressing franchise for the intercity west coast will now be awarded anomalies in the current system and the potential for in August 2012, after a competitive process involving much greater use of smart technology. In parallel, the the four shortlisted train operators, and will commence Government are developing a wider rail strategy to operations on 9 December 2012. In making that decision, ensure that we have an affordable, sustainable, safe and I have deliberately avoided a change of franchise high-quality railway that delivers a better deal to taxpayers immediately ahead of or during the Olympic period. I and fare payers. It will set out clearly the roles of central have also decided to take advantage of the short delay and local government, train operators and Network to complete the integration of the 106 new Pendolino Rail in securing the future of the railway. carriages into the fleet prior to the commencement of This is urgent and vital work. Let us be in no doubt the new franchise. The Department will seek to agree but that the excessive cost base that Sir Roy has identified acceptable terms with the existing franchisee for a contract is the reason that UK rail fares are the highest in extension to 9 December 2012, but Directly Operated Europe by some margin, even though our levels of Railways Ltd, the Government-owned company that taxpayer subsidy are also among the highest in Europe. runs East Coast, will be ready to operate the franchise Let us be clear about the potential prize. The successful between April and December 2012 if necessary. delivery of cost reductions over the next few years on Copies of the rail value-for-money study and the the scale set out by McNulty would enable us to reduce draft invitation to tender for the west coast main line levels of taxpayer subsidy and, at the same time, put the have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses and era of inflation-busting fare increases behind us. are available on the Department’s website. Our expectation To achieve the challenging targets for cost reduction is that future passenger franchises on UK rail will allow and industry-wide efficiency that Sir Roy has identified, operators greater flexibility to meet passenger demand all players in the industry will have to work together. and pursue innovation, while protecting the key elements The train operators, Network Rail, rolling stock companies, of service for passengers. unions and the Government cannot avoid playing their Longer franchises and a changed relationship with part if we are to deliver a sustainable and affordable Network Rail will have a positive impact on the behaviour railway for the future. of train operators and their appetite for investment and Sir Roy makes it clear that the Department needs to risk taking. However, I want to send a clear message step back from excessively detailed specification of train that the new culture of co-operation in the rail industry, services and the micro-management of rail operations. I and the focus on cost reduction, is here to stay and is recognise that that will represent a major culture change, mandatory, not optional. I can announce today that as but it is one that I am determined to deliver. I would like a matter of policy for all future franchise competitions, to place on record my thanks to Sir Roy McNulty and a significant part of the assessment of bidders’ capability his team for the excellent work they have done, and to at the pre-qualification stage will be evidence of success welcome Sir Roy’s commitment to working with the in collaborative working and driving down costs. industry on an ongoing basis. The facts are clear: our railway costs too much, and I also wish to announce to the House the publication in consequence fares are rising faster than inflation and of the draft invitation to tender and stakeholder briefing taxpayer subsidy has reached unsustainable levels. To document for the intercity west coast franchise, which secure the future of the railway, we now have to tackle lays out the train service specification that I am minded that problem after a decade of ignoring it and get costs to procure for that route. As I have said, the Government into line with those of our European comparators, have already adopted Sir Roy’s recommendation that bringing relief to taxpayers and the prospect of an end franchise specifications should become less prescriptive. to the era of above-inflation fare increases to passengers. The proposed train service specification for intercity I commend this statement to the House. west coast represents a relaxation of the rigid timetable specifications of the past, while retaining obligations Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I begin that protect the key elements of service such as principal by thanking the Secretary of State for early sight of his first and last train services and minimum numbers of statement. May I place on record the thanks of Labour station stops per week and per day. That marks a Members to Sir Roy McNulty for the detailed and significant shift from the micro-management under the thorough work that he has carried out? As the right current system that has prevented operators from hon. Gentleman acknowledged, that work began under maximising capacity and reacting to the changing demands the previous Government. of their passengers. I have said before that we would look seriously at the Among other proposed changes, we intend to replace conclusions of the value-for-money review and support the current cap and collar revenue-sharing system that any sensible proposals to take costs out of the industry. has driven perverse behaviour by train operators with a I promise again today that we will study the details of gross domestic product-based risk-sharing arrangement Sir Roy’s report, and that it will inform our own transport and a profit-sharing mechanism that will ensure that policy review. the taxpayer benefits from any unexpected profits over I agree with the Secretary of State that we should the term of the franchise. reduce the public subsidy to the rail industry, and we Because the relaxation of the full prescription of need to be clear about why much of that subsidy exists train services in line with Sir Roy’s recommendations if we are to address it effectively. It is partly the result of was not signalled in the consultation document that we the enormous structural fragmentation within the industry, published on 19 January, I have decided that it is right and let us be clear that that fragmentation is the legacy 523 McNulty Report and West Coast 19 MAY 2011 McNulty Report and West Coast 524 Rail Rail of the botched privatisation carried out in the dying forward these reforms? As he considers staffing, will he days of the last Conservative Government. The Secretary understand the value that passengers place on staffed of State should have apologised today for the shambles trains and open ticket offices, and the fact that women of that privatisation and the staggering sums of money in particular feel safer in properly staffed stations, wasted as a result. Unlike him, I take our share of the particularly late at night? responsibility for being too timid about addressing that We have heard today the extent to which the right fragmentation during our time in government. hon. Gentleman’s policy on rail franchising has descended Closer working between train operators and Network into chaos and confusion, with his decision to delay the Rail makes sense, and I support the internal reorganisation awarding of the west coast franchise. Can he confirm that is going on at Network Rail and many of the that First Group is to hand back its Great Western proposals that have been made to ensure that costs are franchise three years ahead of schedule? Is the reason removed through greater partnership. I am pleased that that it has given for that decision, as reported in the the Secretary of State appears to have stepped back press, that it has calculated that it will make losses in the from his earlier plans for the wholesale breaking up of final years of its franchise period? Does he agree that our rail infrastructure, which would have been a costly that is unacceptable? mistake and added yet more fragmentation to the industry. Will the Secretary of State confirm that there is a Can he confirm that he does not intend to proceed with possibility that the east coast main line, the west coast an experiment of handing track over to train operating main line and the Great Western franchises will all be companies within any of the franchise areas? Previously run by the Government while he decides what his franchising there has been briefing that the East Anglia franchise policy is? Does that not make a mockery of the whole would be used for that experiment. Can he reassure the franchising system? House that that is no longer the plan? Does the Secretary of State understand why commuters I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to establish in East Anglia are dismayed at the cost and chaos of his a proper review of fares. Despite the efforts that we decision to award a contract for less than two years, made, the current system is too complex and leaves risking three owners in as many years, with only the passengers frustrated. However, does he understand companies that supply the paint to redo the liveries why passengers will have very little faith that he does benefiting? Are not the future of franchising, the massive not intend to impose yet further hikes in ticket prices? public subsidies that go to the private train operating At a time when families are feeling the squeeze on their companies, and the vast sums that leave the industry in household budgets, he has imposed fare rises of more profits the big missing pieces of the work of looking at than 30% over the next three years. I believe he was costs in the industry? wrong to give back to train companies the right to average out the cap across their fares, rather than apply I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to replace it to each fare individually as we insisted when we were the current cap and collar revenue-sharing system, but in government. He was also wrong to increase the cap does he agree that we will not get the costs of the on regulated fares from 1% to 3% above inflation. industry under control until we look seriously at its structure and the future of franchising? The public In opposition, current the Minister of State said that wants a simplified industry—one in which the driving fare rises of such a level would force is less maximising profit and squeezing every last “price people off the railways”, penny out of the fare payer and the taxpayer, and more and the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for the delivery of a world-class service. That is why I have Lewes (Norman Baker), promised below-inflation fare committed Labour’s policy review to look at alternative rises—more broken promises from the two Government models for the future of the rail industry, including parties. Will the Secretary of State reject proposals to not-for-profit models. I urge him to do the same. give the train operating companies greater freedom to Finally, the right hon. Gentleman’s statement was not set the level of fares? Will he listen to his own consumer the only announcement to be widely spun and briefed watchdog, Passenger Focus, which has today described to the media in advance of his coming before the the suggestion of reducing regulation on off-peak tickets House. Several newspapers are reporting that he has as a “leap in the dark”? Does he share its concern, as I abandoned his plans to close more than half the UK’s do, that if the plans go ahead, we might end up with coastguard stations, yet the Opposition understand that affordable, flexible travel for longer journeys being confined far from abandoning the plans, he has simply put them to a brief window in the middle of the day? on hold. Those plans were never agreed by Ministers in Will the Secretary of State also reject the suggestion the previous Government, and I would not have approved to remove any role for politicians in the setting of fares, them. Will he now take this opportunity to end the huge which would effectively remove any public accountability uncertainty facing coastguard stations and agree to for fares through the ballot box? The link between the abandon those reckless proposals? fare box and the ballot box should not be broken. May I urge the right hon. Gentleman to approach Mr Hammond: I might get some guidance from you, reform to staffing levels and pay and conditions within Mr Deputy Speaker, on whether it is appropriate for me the rail industry in a spirit of partnership, not confrontation? to respond to the hon. Lady’s comments on coastguards—I That is something that we have not seen in the language would be happy to do so if you indicate that that is in and tone of briefings by his Department in recent days. order. I urge the trade unions to work with the Government as they look to carry out reforms within the industry, but Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. It is will he ensure that he includes those who represent staff up to the Secretary of State which points he wishes to on the high-level group that he is establishing to take answer. 525 McNulty Report and West Coast 19 MAY 2011 McNulty Report and West Coast 526 Rail Rail Mr Hammond: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for and robustly—and huge increases in passenger numbers that very helpful guidance. are projected. If we can deal with the problems of the I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s comments about cost base, we could have a hugely successful business for Sir Roy, who was of course appointed by my predecessor. the benefit of British fare payers and taxpayers. I very much hope that we can take forward the rail The hon. Lady has won me a small bet by referring to reform agenda with a degree of cross-party consensus, my strategy on west coast franchising as being in “chaos which would be very helpful—realistically, it is asking a and confusion”, so I am grateful to her for that. In fact, great deal to expect that we will agree on everything. I have today announced an example of open government. The hon. Lady blames “structural fragmentation” for We could have progressed with the draft invitation to the high cost of our railway. She obviously has not yet tender that I published today without further consultation, had a chance to read the full report, but when she does but I felt that because there has been a material change so she will see that Sir Roy identifies many causes. from the documents that we circulated at the time of the However, she seems to be displaying the famous Labour January consultation, it is right to consult again. That disease of collective amnesia. She might recall the introduces a three-month delay, and I do not want inconvenient facts that her Government created Network the franchise changeover to come immediately before Rail a decade ago, and that her Government spent the Olympics, which necessarily means a delay until the 13 years in power doing nothing at all about the structural latter part of next year, which gives us the opportunity fragmentation of which she now complains. to complete the integration of the Pendolino fleet. We The way forward that passengers and taxpayers would have taken a set of careful and interlinked decisions on expect us to take for our railway is one of evolution the timetable for that franchise, and I hope that, on rather than revolution, although that evolution must be reflection, she welcomes the approach that we have adopted. rapid. I have taken a conscious decision, which I conveyed The hon. Lady asked about First Great Western. It is to Sir Roy, that I would like to see how far we can go of course true that First Great Western has decided to within the existing railways legislative framework rather exercise the break clause that exists in its franchise, than spark an ultimately unproductive and, for passengers, which allows it to surrender it in 2013 rather than in entirely unhelpful political debate over the next couple 2016. However, before she adopts too strident a tone, of years on major railway legislation. The idea of Sir she should remember who let that franchise with that Roy McNulty’s agenda is to take forward significant break clause in it. First Group has exercised the rights reductions in costs in the railway within the existing that her Government gave it in that franchise. She might legislative framework. also reflect on the fact that her Government let the The hon. Lady asked about track-train integration. GNER franchise and NXEA franchise before she gets As she will know, Sir Roy has suggested that we pilot too strident about them as well. closer integration between train operators and the devolved Network Rail infrastructure operations on the different The hon. Lady mentioned profit in the railway. I do routes and regions. Sir Roy suggested that the railway is not consider “profit” to be a dirty word. I consider that not homogeneous, and that we should go forward at proper incentives and profit-making companies delivering different paces on different sections of our railway. I efficient public services can be effective ways of delivering agree with that general principle. We will look very for the taxpayer and the passenger. This Government carefully at Sir Roy’s specific proposals and suggestions will introduce a profit-sharing arrangement in new on track-train integration, and incorporate a response franchises, the like of which does not appear in the into the wider rail reform proposals with which I intend current crop of franchises, which her Government let, to return to the House before the end of this year. and the like of which would have prevented situations such as the one on the Trans-Pennine franchise, where The hon. Lady welcomed the fares review, and I am profits of 30% on revenue are being earned. We will grateful to her for that. She asked whether the review is ensure that the taxpayer gets a fair share of any a cover or code word for increases in prices, but I say unanticipated profits that are earned over the lifetime of this to her: the Government want an end to the era in the franchise. I hope that we all have the same objective—the which fares rise faster than inflation, but we can do that delivery of a world-class railway service that is affordable only by delivering Sir Roy’s savings and by getting the for taxpayers and for fare payers. However, to deliver costs of our railway back under control. That prize is that, we have to drive out cost-effectively and, after within our grasp if we progress Sir Roy’s agenda. To Members and others have heard what I have had to say reassure her, I have no intention of ending the system of and what the hon. Lady has had to say, it will be for regulated fares. That is not suggested by Sir Roy, and them to decide who will most effectively be able to know not where she got the idea that I was in favour achieve that objective. of it. The hon. Lady asked me to try to take a collaborative approach with the unions on labour productivity. I would Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Does be delighted to do so if an opportunity arises. I was my right hon. Friend accept that for many Swindon slightly heartened by what I heard Bob Crow say on the residents travelling to and from London to work during radio this morning, although I may have heard only a peak hours has resulted in eye-wateringly high fares for part of the total interview. He said he was willing to far too many years? What hope can he offer them for look at proposals for more efficient working practices, the future of peak-time rail fares? which is at least better than his saying that he is not willing to look at such proposals. We must be clear that Mr Hammond: There are two things that I can say to all players in the industry must change if we are to my hon. Friend. First, if we do not address the challenges harvest those savings. The prize for the unions is also that Sir Roy has set out, there will be only one direction big. The railway is a growing industry—it is not in of travel—worse services and higher prices. That is not decline, as it was before privatisation, but growing rapidly acceptable to anybody in this House or in the country. 527 McNulty Report and West Coast 19 MAY 2011 McNulty Report and West Coast 528 Rail Rail I want to make a point specifically about commuter Mr Hammond: A good old Labour contribution from fares and season tickets. At the moment, we have a very below the gangway! Sir Roy McNulty did look at the inflexible system of season tickets. People buy a season options of greater integration, but the hon. Gentleman ticket which assumes that they will travel in peak hours might not be aware that things have moved on a little in every day. Increasingly, people have opportunities for Europe since the last time he read the manual. European flexible working patterns—indeed, the Government are law on railways has evolved, and the separation of train committed to giving people greater opportunities for operations from track operations is now mandated across flexible working patterns. Smart ticketing technology the European Union. While much of the railway is still will allow us to be able to start to recognise people who in public ownership, it is not integrated in the way that have a pattern of work that allows them to work at he may imagine. home one day a week or a fortnight, instead of their Sir Roy’s clear conclusion was that a monolithic having to pay the rail fare even though they are not UK-wide system is not the direction of travel and that using the railway. That technology can help us to address more devolution of responsibility and autonomy to some of the perverse incentives that season ticket holders route networks is the way forward. currently have to use the railway in peak time when perhaps they do not always need to do so. Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): Although I understand the reasons behind the delay in Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): On the the decision on the west coast main line franchise, can issue of value for money and rail electrification, can the my right hon. Friend reassure my constituents that the Secretary of State undertake to have a look at transnational decision will include provision for the train operators to transport funding from Europe to help to support the play a more active role in the future of stations, especially case for the Swansea to Cardiff electrification? It would in their infrastructure and presentation to passengers? complete the electrification from Paddington to Swansea and, with the ferry link to Ireland, provide access to Mr Hammond: Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that significant European funding. assurance. The proposal that we have put forward—as he will see when he has a chance to look at the invitation Mr Hammond: I have already made a statement to to tender—is that the train operators should be granted the House on the economics of the electrification from a peppercorn rent lease of the station for the duration Cardiff to Swansea and I am afraid that those economics of the franchise. We also propose a revised residual have not changed, but if the hon. Gentleman is raising value mechanism, so that train operators have an incentive the issue of trans-European network funding, I am not to invest capital in station infrastructure throughout aware that there is any still available. However, I undertake their franchises with the confidence that they will be to have a look at that potential source of funding. reimbursed a fair value for that investment at the end of the franchise. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I welcome this Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does report and congratulate Sir Roy McNulty on it. Commuters Sir Roy’s report which, from what the Secretary of State and other travellers have suffered for far too long from has said, is very stimulating and interesting, mention high and complex fares and overcrowded trains. Can the possibility of mutualisation or a co-operative form the Secretary of State assure me and all those who use for Network Rail? We want a profitable, safe and effective the trains that the savings that must be made from the service but if, as MP for Huddersfield, I look at the system will be returned to people in lower fares and rolling stock that gets my constituents to Wakefield, better services? Leeds and Manchester, I see that it leaves a great deal to be desired. Could we also see some changes on that Mr Hammond: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. front? I have to put it to him slightly differently: the savings will be returned to people in the form of lower taxpayer Mr Hammond: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman subsidy—which we have to deliver, because my Department, will have been pleased by the announcement that we like every other Department, has to make its contribution made recently about additional rolling stock for the to dealing with the fiscal mess that we inherited—and in commuter services into Leeds. Sir Roy did not specifically due course, if they are successful, there will be lower address the question of any form of mutual structure. pressure for upward real increases in fares. I would like Network Rail is of course an independent company, to see a return to a world in which fares rise broadly in and as Secretary of State I do not have any power to line with inflation, and a move away from the era of direct it. There are issues of the governance of Network inflation-busting fare increase that we have faced over Rail that need to be addressed, and I accept that, but I the last few years and, unfortunately, will have to face suggest that the urgent need is to look at its operational over the next three years. structure. The issues of governance and the rather theoretical question of ownership can be looked at on a Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): The McNulty report longer time horizon. Right now we need to drive out did not seriously consider the possibility of the reintegration cost. of the rail system into public ownership. I mention that because many systems abroad are largely in public Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Following the ownership. One of the reasons why our system is at least work of the last Government, there are no fast off-peak 30% more expensive is the billions of pounds siphoned services on the west coast main line to or from Nuneaton off in profits and dividends. Will the Secretary of State station. Many of the fast off-peak trains thunder through explain why they did not look at that option and why it Nuneaton station half empty while there is a strong is not on the table at the moment? demand for off-peak services to and from that station. 529 McNulty Report and West Coast 19 MAY 2011 McNulty Report and West Coast 530 Rail Rail [Mr Marcus Jones] franchise comes up for renewal, which—off the top of my head—is in 2016. However, I said something this Will the west coast main line specification make it morning that he will be interested in: I indicated that possible for franchisees to look, for example, at changing when we return to the House later this year with our services so perhaps a fast train could stop at Nuneaton proposals for broader rail reform, we will consider the station every hour, trading off a small increase in end-to-end greater devolution of regional railways and regional journey times for the possibility of maximising revenue railway funding, both to the devolved Administrations on that service? and to local authorities and integrated transport authorities around the country. That will enable us to oversee the Mr Philip Hammond: I thought, at the beginning of national strategic rail routes, but not manage the regional my hon. Friend’s question, that perhaps he had missed and local railways system, from the Department in what I said about less departmental micro-management, London. That seems a sensible way of proceeding. but I saw from how he ended that he had not missed it all. We will not mandate the new franchisee to do what Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I welcome the he describes, but we will make it possible by relaxing the greater autonomy for Network Rail route managers in rigid timetabling and specification imposed in the past. the Wessex area, because rail passengers in my constituency We will also give operators an incentive to do so. By are endlessly frustrated by the pass-the-parcel attitude moving away from the cap and collar revenue-sharing to responsibility for performance on the railways. In the regime, we will make operators much more responsive light of First Great Western’s recent announcement, to the demands of passengers waiting on a platform will the timing for the letting of the Great Western and ready to pay good money to get on a train. In the franchise enable the Government fully to embrace the past, that has not always been the case, because 80% of McNulty report proposals in setting out the future of what passengers handed over went directly to the rail travel for my constituents? Government. Mr Hammond: Yes, of course. The fact that the Great Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I note Western franchise will be re-let in 2013 will enable us to what the Secretary of State said about subsidies and bring forward to that date the incorporation of the fares—we will return to that later in the year—but will benefits of McNulty’s work. However, I would re-emphasise he give us a progress report on the Coventry Knuckle that one of Sir Roy’s key conclusions—one that I strongly project, which I am sure he knows a lot about, because share—is that our railway is not the same in every area. it would help Coventry’s economic situation? What is right for the west coast main line might not be right for the East Anglia franchise. What is right for the Mr Hammond: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I had northern franchise might not be right for the south-eastern a productive meeting with him, some of his parliamentary franchise. We will consider each franchise individually, colleagues and local councillors about the project. I and look at different models appropriate to the type of think they took from that meeting clear guidance on railway involved. We will proceed on that basis, and we what needs to be done to raise the project’s prospects of will learn as we go. achieving local authority major scheme funding. I remain happy to engage with him and his colleagues in progressing Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): The that project. west coast main line has improved dramatically over the years in both capacity and reliability, because of the Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): Wages in investment made. However, it is the victim of its own Hastings have fallen dramatically against the rest of the success. Use has risen exponentially and the trains are south-east in the past 10 years, but wages of commuters packed at peak times. Despite what the Secretary of are significantly higher. Does the Secretary of State State said about regulated fares, there is a widespread agree that if we manage to redress the imbalance between fear that the proposals he has announced will allow the continually deteriorating service and higher wages, substantial increases in off-peak rail travel fares. If that we would improve the regeneration of towns such as is so, it will not only damage people travelling in off-peak Hastings as well as the quality of life of commuters periods, but remove the incentive to plan one’s travel themselves? and thus make the crush at peak times even worse. What can he say in response to those fears? Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend is right. High-quality rail services deliver major economic benefits to the Mr Hammond: I can say that they are unfounded. By towns they serve, which, of course, is one of the major the way, the right hon. Gentleman made the case for rationales behind the Government’s enthusiasm for the High Speed 2 more eloquently than I could. It will high-speed rail project. deliver a massive increase in capacity on the west coast corridor and allow much more innovative and flexible Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) services on the west coast main line, which is now (PC): What consideration has been given to a Welsh operating at—or very close to—capacity. However, there franchise based on a not-for-profit model operated by is a serious point about pricing and cliff edges in the the Welsh Government? I believe that is the policy of at pricing system. Anyone who stands at Euston station least two of the main parties in the National Assembly. on a Friday evening will see that nobody wants to board a train at 6.50 pm or 6.55 pm, because that means Mr Hammond: I am pleased to be able to tell the hon. paying the peak fare. They are all trying to get on the Gentleman that franchising policy in Wales is a matter train at 7.2 pm, to the extent that the British Transport for the Welsh Assembly Government, so it will be for police regularly have to deploy to physically keep people them to decide when the current Arriva Trains Wales off the trains for safety’s sake. That is a barmy pricing 531 McNulty Report and West Coast 19 MAY 2011 McNulty Report and West Coast 532 Rail Rail system. We have to consider the anomalies of massive pay tribute to the quality and courtesy of the staff I cliff edges and try to smooth them out, so that there is encounter in difficult circumstances. However, first-class less of an incentive not to travel on a particular train. carriages are often under-utilised. Can he confirm whether However, overall I would expect such a move to be the new franchise will include a duty to take all practical revenue-neutral across regulated fares; this is about measures to ensure that people do not have to stand on managing the system better, not raising more money. trains that often travel at more than 120 mph?

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): One of the Mr Hammond: As I said earlier, the intention is to be understandable grumbles of the Kettering rail users less prescriptive. Train operators already have the freedom group is that for historical reasons the fare for a journey to de-designate first-class carriages and reconfigure their from Kettering to London is disproportionately higher trains if they want to, and all the new Pendolino cars than that for a journey to London of a similar length that will be inserted in existing nine-car sets will be from other places. Will the fares policy review seek to standard-class carriages. I do not want to talk about iron out such anomalies? imposing a specific duty on operators, but they will have to deliver on targets to reduce overcrowding, and we Mr Hammond: I do not want to pre-empt the rail have powers to force them to take action if they do not. fares policy review, to which I am sure that my hon. Friend will make a submission, but I have recently Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I had the pleasure enjoyed meeting the Northampton rail users group, and of meeting Sir Roy McNulty on two occasions during the Minister of State has just said that she would be his consultation. I put to him the points made by Tom happy to meet the Kettering rail users groups, so perhaps Winsor, the former rail regulator, that British Rail worked we can carry a dialogue forward. miracles on a pittance and that when the railways were handed over to the privateers, they were handed over John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I “in good order”—his words. Also, the Catalyst report refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial recorded BR as having the highest productivity of all Interests. On a constituency matter, with regard to First the railways in Europe. BR was desperately underfunded, Great Western and the handing back of the franchise, I with not enough investment, but it worked miracles on would welcome the Secretary of State or the Minister a pittance. I also put it to Sir Roy that the staggering rise convening a meeting of the relevant MPs along that line in costs that has occurred since privatisation is a direct to discuss the security of service provision. This looks result of privatisation. I personally believe that it is pie like a creeping re-nationalisation of the railway service—but in the sky to think that we will bring those costs down there we are! However, as the Secretary of State said, without public ownership again. When is the Secretary there is a big staffing agenda. All three rail unions have of State going to look at that again? welcomed the opportunity to work with the Government on that agenda. However, it is crucial that they are represented at every level of the industry and in every Mr Hammond: I am not. I think the hon. Gentleman forum discussing the staffing agenda. It is not conducive suffers from the disease—which I have noticed is quite to good industrial relations to have statements about widespread—of taking a rose-tinted retrospective view threats of further anti-trade union legislation at this of British Rail. People were quick enough to criticise time. and complain about British Rail’s performance when it was operating; now, at 15 years’ distance, that era Mr Hammond: I will have to disappoint the hon. suddenly appears to have been some halcyon period of Gentleman on creeping re-nationalisation: there is not British excellence. The hon. Gentleman is right that one, and I can assure him that so long as I am in this British Rail operated the railway on a shoestring at job, there will not be one. However, I am happy to meet relatively low cost, but in doing so it built up a tremendous MPs along that route to talk about the Great Western legacy of under-investment and disregard for safety franchise. First Group will continue to operate the risk, the terrible consequences of which we saw only too franchise until 2013, and it has assured us that it will clearly in the late 1990s and the early years of this century. operate it as normal and run the franchise properly during that period. It has every incentive to do so, Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I welcome this because, as I just announced, our policy is that eligibility report and the associated cost reductions on the west for participating in franchise competitions will depend coast main line. We can learn from this report, so will on demonstrated ability to deliver co-operative working, my right hon. Friend please ensure that the forecast and to bear down on cost pressures. build and running costs for High Speed 2 are not I am absolutely ready to meet the unions. In fact, I exaggerated? think my office is in the process of arranging a meeting with the rail unions through the TUC, which I hope can Mr Hammond: Yes. The High Speed 2 business case play a constructive role in this process—it is a process I and the build and running costs put forward in the think we all want—of making this a viable and affordable consultation document incorporate the Treasury’s generous industry that has a bright future, and which will employ additional percentages for risk and optimism bias—with not fewer but more people as the railway expands on the as much as 60% added to the basic costs in some trajectory of current projections. cases—to address the very concern that my hon. Friend outlines. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I welcome the Secretary of State’s approach to the west coast main line franchise. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): In all this As has been said, overcrowding in standard class in emphasis on devolving and transferring responsibility particular is a problem on the west coast main line. I to train operating companies, does the Secretary of 533 McNulty Report and West Coast 19 MAY 2011 McNulty Report and West Coast 534 Rail Rail [Jeremy Corbyn] Mr Hammond: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. As I mentioned earlier, an announcement State not recognise that there is a danger of losing the was made recently about additional rolling stock for whole principle of having an integrated rail service, services into Leeds. I had it in my mind that that with integrated timetabling and ticketing for those who covered the route in question, but he is testing the make complicated journeys? Additionally, he did not extreme edges of my memory now, so it would be better say very much in his statement about reopening disused for me to write to him with the specific answer to that branch lines, which could well benefit by becoming a question. useful feeder service into the network, or about the east-west freight line, which is so important in increasing Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): Surely freight usage and using existing rail tracks more the Secretary of State must accept that fragmentation efficiently. costs more. For example, I understand that Network Rail employs about 600 legal staff to negotiate with the Mr Hammond: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s train operating companies, and no doubt each operating question, which allows me to make an important point. company also employs significant numbers of such Integration in the railway at the level of timetabling, staff. Surely we should be looking at integration, as it planning and route network operation is important. will save us money. The hon. Gentleman will not have had a chance to read the report yet, but Sir Roy makes that point clearly. Mr Hammond: The hon. Lady has obviously read the Those things have to be done on an industry-wide basis; RMT press release from this morning. Of course there they cannot be fragmented when greater autonomy is are additional frictional costs—interfaces—in the operation devolved to network rail route managers or when train of the railway that we currently have, with franchisees operators are given greater flexibility. and an overall network operator. However, there are also a lot of unnecessary costs that are caused by the The hon. Gentleman also talks about reopening disused adversarial relationship between Network Rail and the lines. I am afraid to tell him that work on the cost base train operators. As I said earlier, I do not believe that has a little way to go before that becomes a practical the answer is some massive revolution that requires reality. However, as I said earlier, I intend to look primary legislation and will take the rest of this Parliament carefully at the case for devolving responsibility for to deliver. Instead, this is about getting people working commissioning services and the budgets with which to together differently. Let us get to a railway that is do that for regional and local railways later this year. I different from the one that we have now. In the railway would expect decisions to reinstate any currently disused that we have now, the brightest and the best people in all lines to be taken at that level. train operating companies are the ones who spend their lives allocating responsibility for failure and collecting Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): money from each other. Hundreds of people are literally I congratulate the Secretary of State on this encouraging spending their days trying to decide whether each delayed report. What are the prospects for improved rolling train is the responsibility of Network Rail or of this or stock on the Leeds-to-York line via Harrogate and that operator. That is not productive. Getting the industry Knaresborough? We have rapidly growing numbers of to work together, looking at industry-wide costs and passengers on the route, but the rolling stock is some of focusing on solving the problems, rather than allocating the very worst that I have seen in the country. blame for them, is the way forward. 535 19 MAY 2011 536 Points of Order Backbench Business 1.37 pm [27TH ALLOTTED DAY] Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I wish to raise BBC World Service with you a matter relating to the rights of Members of this House. I have today received a notice about the [Relevant documents: The Second Special Report from restrictions being imposed on access to this House on the Foreign Affairs Committee, The Implications of Cuts the day of the visit by the President of the United to the BBC World Service, Responses from the Government States. I recognise entirely that it is essential to provide and the BBC to the Committee’s Sixth Report of Session the President with maximum security. I recognise further 2010-12, HC 1058; The Fourth Report from the Culture, that this will involve, and needs to involve, restrictions Media and Sport Committee, on the BBC Licence Fee on access to this building by strangers—people who are Settlement and Annual Report, HC 454.] not Members of this House. However, the notice includes a series of restrictions on access to this House by elected 1.40 pm Members of this House. I regard that as unacceptable. Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): I beg to It is also a violation of the Sessional Orders, which give move, every Member the right of access to this House in the That this House notes the Sixth Report from the Foreign service of his or her constituents. I would therefore ask Affairs Committee, The Implications of Cuts to the BBC World you to have this matter re-examined urgently, so that Service, HC 849; endorses the Committee’s support for the World while of course welcoming the President and providing Service’s invaluable work in providing a widely respected and him with security, we can at the same time maintain the trusted news service in combination with high-quality journalism to many countries; considers that the unfolding events in North right of Members of this House to come into this Africa and the Middle East demonstrate the continuing importance building whenever they need to. of the soft power wielded through the World Service; believes that the value of the World Service far outweighs its relatively small Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): What I can cost; and invites the Government to review its decision to cut say is that we do not discuss security issues in this spending on the World Service by 16 per cent. Chamber, and quite rightly so, as Sir Gerald will know, This is an historic moment for the House of Commons, given that he is a very senior Member of this House because this is the first debate in the House by a with great knowledge. I suggest that he meet with the departmental Select Committee on a substantive motion Serjeant at Arms to discuss the issues. He has put them relating to a major issue of public concern since the on the record for the rest of the House to consider, but introduction of the new arrangements for Back-Bench the right way to proceed is to sit down with the Serjeant business. This is good for democracy and good for the at Arms. I will, of course, also pass on his comments to reputation of Parliament. Mr Speaker. Power falls into three categories: military power, economic power and soft power. It is the view of the Foreign Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): On a point of Affairs Select Committee that the BBC World Service is order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am glad that the Secretary a key component of Britain’s soft power. We recognise of State for Transport is still in his place to hear my the economic constraints and the background to our point of order. Have you had any indication from him report, but we believe that it is a mistake to implement that he intends to make a statement to the House to the proposed heavy cuts to the World Service’s budget. clear up the confusion caused by his comments on This is a question of priorities. We live in a fast-moving television and in The Times today? Coastguards at world where the internet and the media have grown in Crosby and across the country, and the public whom reach, influence, power and authority faster than anyone they serve, are extremely concerned about the proposed could have dreamed. It might seem odd to quote no less changes, as are Members of all parties across the House, a person than Osama bin Laden on the importance of and we would all appreciate some clarification in a soft power, but, talking about jihad, he said: statement from the Secretary of State. “The media war in this century is one of the strongest methods. It’s…90% of the total preparation for battles”. Mr Deputy Speaker: That is not a matter for me, but He was talking about the power and influence of media the hon. Gentleman has placed his comments on record. communications—soft power. Soft power is a rapidly growing way of achieving desired outcomes. In the cold war era, power was expressed in terms of nuclear missiles, industrial capacity, numbers of men under arms, and tanks lined up across the central plains of eastern Europe. Today, none of those factors confers power in quite the same way. The old structures are moving on. Cyber-attacks and the more subtle methods of the information age are the norm. Soft power—the power of Governments to influence behaviour through attraction rather than coercion— dominates. That point is not lost on the Foreign Office, high up on whose list of structural reform priorities—the reforms that it believes should have priority—is the “use of ‘soft power’ to promote British values, advance development and prevent conflict”. 537 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 538

[Richard Ottaway] World Service for real information during the coup against him in 1991. It is no wonder that the Foreign I can think of no better definition or illustration of the Secretary said that need for the World Service, and it is the opinion of our “the BBC World Service will remain of fundamental importance Committee that the cuts to its output are a false economy. to this country’s presence in the world”. If anything, it should be expanded to address the concerns The strategic defence review singled out the World of a changing world, just as the security services and the Service, saying that it number of diplomats to key sensitive postings have “plays unique roles in promoting our values, culture and commitment been expanded. to human rights and democracy”. The BBC World Service is a priceless institution. Its In the interest of balance, however, I should report to value dramatically exceeds its costs. It is a key national the House that one listener wrote to me to say that it and global institution at the forefront of international was a complete waste of money for the World Service to broadcasting, operating to the highest standards. In be broadcasting cricket to northern Europe. I had to evidence to the Select Committee, BECTU—the point out that that was on long wave, and not the World Broadcasting, Entertainment, Cinematograph and Theatre Service and, unfortunately for him, he would have to Union—said: continue to listen to ball-by-ball commentary and detailed “The World Service is the world’s most recognised news service.” analysis of the LBW rule. The National Union of Journalists described it as a The Select Committee believes that the World Service “force for good”. A Chinese journalist told us that it is a jewel in the crown which promotes British values of was the most “trusted and respected” news service. The truth and democracy across the globe. In our motion, Financial Times described it as we say that its value “far outweighs its relatively small “one of Britain’s principal sources of soft power”. cost”. As yet another Minister defects from Libya, the dramatic events in north Africa and the middle east Mark Thompson, the director-general of the BBC, show that soft power, properly deployed, is likely to described it as bring even more benefit to the UK. In the fog of war “one of the most precious things the BBC does and a lifeline to and media spin, people everywhere trust the World many tens of millions of people around the world who don’t Service to be fair, honest, courageous and decent. And enjoy proper access to accurate, impartial, open media”. so, by association, Britain is endowed with those same A listener said that it qualities. This is soft diplomacy, and it is valuable. “punches far above its weight and brings a disproportionate amount of prestige and soft power to the United Kingdom”. Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): Does Another wrote to me saying that it would be my hon. Friend agree that a key element in this is that the Government’s contribution to the World Service “better to cut the increase to the aid budget and bolster the World does not have to be a permanent one? The licence payer Service”. is going to take over the cost of the World Service in three years’ time. Were the Government to cut the Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): World Service by the same amount as the rest of the First, may I thank the Chairman of the Select Committee Foreign Office, there would be a temporary imposition for the leadership that he has shown during the preparation on the taxpayer, not a permanent one. of the report? I believe that we have managed to produce an enormously influential report under his chairmanship. Richard Ottaway: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, He was talking about the value of the World Service, and I shall come to that point in a moment. It is the but I know he recognises that that is changing. Others disproportionate nature of the cuts that is of concern to are investing in this area. For example, at this time of so many people. the Arab spring, we are seeing al-Jazeera becoming increasingly powerful in the influence that it brings to bear. Our influence is in great danger of being completely Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): On eclipsed. behalf of the Committee, may I thank my hon. Friend for so eloquently putting the case set out in our report? A moment ago, my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith Richard Ottaway: I thank the right hon. Gentleman and The Border (Rory Stewart) mentioned the question for that, and for the support that he gives me on the of governance. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Committee. I also thank him for his contributions to Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) share the anxiety the Committee, and the expertise that he brings from felt by many of us that the financial responsibility for his previous career. He is absolutely right about the the World Service will be transferred to the BBC budget, changing world that we live in. I think that the Foreign which is subject to a six-year moratorium with regard to Office gets that point. I do not wish to be critical of it, any increase in the licence fee? Is there not a risk that and I think that it does understand this, but we are the World Service will find itself competing with other trying to emphasise that the World Service represents parts of the BBC family—entertainment, for example—so one of the best ways of communicating with this that the admirable Mr Robin Lustig might find himself changing world. The right hon. Gentleman makes his competing for funds with the equally admirable point well. Mr Bruce Forsyth? The World Service enhances Britain’s credibility. I have heard a story that President Kikwete of Tanzania Richard Ottaway: My right hon. and learned Friend starts his day by rising at dawn and listening to the BBC is absolutely right. It is a key recommendation of our World Service rather than the local Tanzanian media. report that the future governance relationship between Others record that Mikhail Gorbachev turned to the the BBC World Service and the Foreign Office is not 539 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 540 defined clearly enough in the concordat. Our concern is that the Government will accept the motion—I have that we might be told, “You want an Arabic service and reason to believe that they may well do—and when they you want a Mandarin service, but we don’t have enough conduct the review, the hon. Gentleman’s point is exactly funds for both, so you need to decide which one”. To be the one they should be looking at. fair to the Foreign Office, it has taken that point into I shall move on from India to China. BBC China has account in its reply. I am pleased that it is still looking at been struggling with the jamming of shortwave radio the issue. signals by the Chinese authorities for more than a The central recommendation of the report was that decade. As a result, its impact has been lost. Despite the decision to reduce spending on the World Service by that, witnesses told us that they continued to hold the 16% should be reversed, but that if the funding has to service in high regard. Sometimes it may be jammed in be reduced, it should be done in such a way as to minimise cities, but not in rural areas. After the Szechuan earthquake the damage. A wide range of services will either be of 2008, the local community tuned in to BBC shortwave closed altogether or have a reduced output. I have no so that they could find out what was happening with the quarrel with some of the planned changes. For example, relief efforts. Chinese listeners tuned in to the Nobel radio audiences in Vietnam have fallen to 1% and it has peace prize ceremony, which the media was banned only about 110,000 listeners. In the meantime, Vietnam from reporting. is seeing an internet boom with some 400,000 users now In response, the World Service is refocusing its online accessing the World Service online. The decision to provision to China. However, let me express a word of focus on online services is obvious and sensible. None caution about the move to online services. Internet the less, we highlight plans to cut three services, which services can be turned off at any time by totalitarian we think should be reviewed: the Mandarin, the Hindi regimes. A good example was seen in Egypt during the and the Arabic services. It is doubtful whether their Arab uprising when some 80 internet providers were cut reduced output is in the nation’s interest. off overnight. The Chinese Government have published a strategy paper asserting their rights to censor the Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I join others in internet inside their own borders. congratulating the hon. Gentleman on his leadership It is the cuts to the Arabic services that have caused role and his Select Committee on its excellent report. the greatest concern. No embarrassment should attach On the Hindi service, does he share my concern to the to the World Service or the Government over this extent that the Government have made it clear, from decision, which was made last December before the last year’s Queen’s Speech to this week’s statement by Arab uprisings in January of this year. The value of the Foreign Secretary, that India is a priority? We are BBC Arabic services is highlighted by photographs— sending more diplomats to India in order to improve colleagues may have seen them—of protesters on the our relationship with that very important country, so will streets of Syria carrying placards saying “Thank you, cutting the Hindi service not send out the wrong message BBC”. Across north Africa, only two radio stations are to a country with which we really want to do business? listened to: al-Jazeera and the World Service. I mean no disrespect to al-Jazeera, but in my judgement, the far Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): We must more independent and therefore respected service is the have shorter interventions, as we are rapidly running World Service. out of time. This is a region that requires quality journalism and Richard Ottaway: The right hon. Gentleman is right news coverage. The Foreign Office has responded to that India is of huge strategic importance to the United recent events in the Arab world by diverting considerable Kingdom. It is a rising power and a stated foreign resources to the region. It has expressed its surprise over policy priority. The World Service audience in India is the reduction in World Service output—I hope that some 11 million, which beats “EastEnders” any day. surprise will work its way into its review—and I welcome The estimated cost of reaching that audience is only the fact that the Foreign Office is in discussion with the £680,000 a year, which the producer of “EastEnders” World Service to review the situation. What is needed, would probably die for. I am not convinced, and I hope however, is a full reversal of the proposed cuts. the House is not convinced, that losing that huge audience Let me deal with funding. Since its inauguration, the to save a bit over £0.5 million is worth it—and I am pleased World Service has been funded by the Foreign Office. that the Government agree in their reply to our report. This will end in 2014 when responsibility will be transferred to the BBC. During the intervening four years, the Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): I accept that budget is to be reduced from £241 million to £212 million the Government say they are prepared to bring in some a year. Taking into account inflation, that is a 16% real- temporary measures whereby the World Service will terms cut. Last autumn’s spending review announced provide limited hours in the Hindi service for a temporary that the overall FCO budget would fall by 24%. However, period, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that the real a closer look shows that, once the World Service and solution is not temporary measures, but recognition the British Council are taken out of the equation, the that losing an audience of 10 million in India and a actual cut in the Foreign Office budget is a shade total loss of nearly 20 million to the World Service under 10%. audience will reduce its share of the global audience so In my judgement and in the opinion of the Select that it will no longer be the premier broadcaster Committee, a 16% cut in the World Service budget, internationally? compared with 10% in the Foreign Office budget, is disproportionate. I sympathise with the director of the Richard Ottaway: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his World Service who argued that the service had to some work in the Select Committee in preparing the report. extent been singled out. In his defence, the Foreign He makes exactly the point I am about to make. I hope Secretary told us that he did not regard the cuts to the 541 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 542

[Richard Ottaway] on development. He believes that he can significantly expand its operations, increasing development outcomes World Service as being disproportionate. He argues that and poverty reduction. That is an extremely helpful the World Service proportion of the FCO overall budget development. I congratulate the Secretary of State and had been kept at its 2007-08 level through to 2013-14. his colleagues in the Department and thank him for his There seems to be some disagreement over the figures. personal involvement, and I hope that the Foreign The World Service tells us that, using the FCO’s baseline Office will be equally responsive. of 2007-08, when the World Service had 16% of the Following the tabling and publishing of the motion budget, it does not keep the same proportion, but last week the Government published a fairly emphatic declines to 15.6% in 2013-14. That 0.4% difference rejection of our report, and it is with some surprise that might not sound much, but it amounts to £6.6 million a I now learn that they intend to accept the motion, year of the World Service budget, which would be which calls on them to review the decision to cut the enough to save a number of services. service by 16%. Several key Select Committee Chairmen, In response, the Government say that they “do not a former Foreign Secretary and other senior Members recognise” the World Service calculations. So, in an of Parliament support the motion because of the effort to explain the difference and resolve the dispute widespread concerns that I have raised. between the World Service and the Foreign Office, I dug In its report on the BBC, which was published today, into the figures. I discovered that they were produced by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee strongly endorses the House of Commons Library. On digging a bit the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report, which means further, I found that the Library stands by the figures as that two Select Committee reports have unanimously they are based on the FCO’s own resource accounts and expressed concern. I must tell the Minister that it would letters to the Committee from the Foreign Secretary be a mistake to undertake a review and then to take no and the permanent secretary. Quite how the FCO can further action. If that does happen, the FAC will return say that it does not recognise the World Service figures to the subject. is a bit of a mystery. Perhaps the Minister will explain The World Service is important. It is a national asset the figures further in his reply. and a jewel in the crown, and it has an unrivalled Those are the problems. What are the solutions? I am reputation throughout the world. It is no surprise that advised that the additional funds required to retain the Kofi Annan described it as Mandarin, Hindi and Arabic services, about which the “perhaps Britain’s greatest gift to the world”. Foreign Affairs Committee expressed concern, amount In those circumstances, I urge the House to support the to between £3 million and £4 million per annum, which motion. is less than the discrepancy between the World Service figures and those of the Foreign Office. The Committee Several hon. Members rose— does not believe that there should be any cuts at all, but believes that if there are to be some cuts it would not be a stupid decision to focus on a small number of priority Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I services, to allocate a relative pinprick in terms of public must be honest with Members. We have very little time. expenditure, and to reverse the decisions on Mandarin, I am sorry, but I must introduce a speaking time limit of Hindi and Arabic using the unallocated £6.6 million. eight minutes. Many Members, and witnesses from outside the House, have suggested that the huge and growing DFID budget 2.4 pm could be used to make up the shortfall in the World Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): I will try to Service budget. That course is subject to two constraints. be brief, Mr Deputy Speaker. First, although it might have been permissible before the International Development Act 2002 came into It is a pleasure to follow the Chairman of the Foreign effect, the Act states that any funding by DFID should Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Croydon South be used for the reduction of poverty. Secondly, DFID (Richard Ottaway), who introduced our report so ably. funding must comply with OECD guidelines to become Let me underline what he said at the end of his speech. official development assistance. Therein lies the problem. If the Government allow the motion to be passed this There is a limit to exactly how much a broadcaster’s afternoon but prove to have had no intention of taking output can be described as official development assistance its wording seriously, the House will definitely revisit or as reducing poverty, and I understand that that limit the issue—and in a different mood from the one it has has been reached. adopted today. Others have suggested that a way around the problem I believe that there is virtual unanimity in this country would be to slice a few million quid off the DFID about the importance of the BBC World Service. Where budget and give the money to the Foreign Office for do people who live in totalitarian and authoritarian onward transmission to the World Service. That suggestion regimes and have no access to free media obtain the runs into the difficulty of meeting the United Nations truth? If they mentioned two or three sources, one of target that 0.7% of GDP should be spent on international them would be the BBC. The BBC provides the best development. However, the House will welcome an possible image for this country, and I think it was very announcement by the Secretary of State for International foolish of the Government to present proposals that Development, who, following discussions between us, would lead to reductions in the services of the World wrote to me on 13 May stating that he intended to make Service and in its audience share. a grant to the World Service Trust and put his Department’s Reference has already been made to cuts in language relationship with the trust on a more strategic basis. The services. Perhaps the Minister will clarify something trust is the charitable arm of the World Service, focusing that is puzzling me. The tone of the response to our 543 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 544 report from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office necessary assurances in place now on preserving the implies some lack of convergence and consensus with ethos and values of the World Service under the future the BBC World Service and its management in regard arrangements. to facts and interpretation. It appears from the wording I hope the House resoundingly supports this very of the report and the responses to it that there is some important motion. The fact that it has broad support is tension and frustration within the FCO about some of a great tribute to the Chairman of our Committee—and the things that we have said and been told. to the other Select Committee Chairs who have put Let me ask a specific question. When the World Service their names to it, as well as the rest of us who are was told that it must reduce its budget significantly—I signatories. The Government must listen and introduce understand that at one point it proposed to close up a speedy review—not a review that will take a long time to 13 language services—what was the Government’s so that the cuts the World Service will have to introduce response? Is it true that they said that that was far too are irreversible. We must have a swift review with fast large a number and that a smaller number must be results, and we must assert that the World Service is the reduced, but with disproportionate cuts in those services? jewel in the crown and will remain so. We now have the absurd situation of a 10 million loss of audience in India. We also have the absurd difficulties 2.12 pm with BBC Arabic to which the Chairman of the Committee Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I support the motion. referred. The Foreign Affairs Committee has produced a good In recent years the World Service has introduced an report. The Chairman’s arguments were right and Arabic television service, which is very popular, and a were pitched extremely well. It is clear from all the Persian television service, which is extremely popular information produced, especially the written documentation and very important in a country that is as important to the Committee received, that many people hold the us as Iran. It has also developed a number of digital and World Service in very high esteem, and I therefore think online services, which cost much more than the radio we would be foolish hastily to proceed in the direction services that are being slashed as a result of these in which we seem to be going. Even if we accept that disproportionate cuts. Both the present Government there might be a degree of bleeding stumps in some of and their predecessor are committed to recognising the the worst case scenarios, it is time for the Government to importance of those Arabic and Persian television services reconsider this issue before any lasting damage is done. and the potential establishment of an Urdu television Consideration of the comprehensive spending review service, which we have discussed with Ministers in this and the licence fee negotiations were concluded fairly and the last Government, and which might have a quickly and without a vast amount of consultation, yet significant impact on a country as important to us as the implications for the World Service are very substantial Pakistan. Is it not part of the wielding of our “soft indeed. Therefore, if there is a right time to pause so power” and our promotion of this country’s values—is that we can carefully consider how to proceed, that time it not in our national interests?—not to cut the World is now. Service’s radio services in order to finance that expansion, but to recognise that the World Service is a vital priority The issue of soft power and the flow of information for British policy projection? around the world has already been mentioned, and it is of great importance for this country’s influence globally. I am not arguing that the World Service should Any of us who travel abroad appreciate that there is a simply do what the Government want; one of its great great appetite for information from the BBC, as well as benefits is its independence. However, I fear that we enthusiasm for British Council centres, and even British have created what is potentially the worst of both newspapers and the rest of our media. It is important worlds. We are drastically reducing the World Service’s that information flows, but the specialised analysis of footprint globally. As the right hon. and learned that information by British journalists and foreign Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) journalists working for the World Service is also important. made clear in his intervention, in three or four years’ We have witnessed upheaval, revolution and the fog of time one tabloid newspaper or another will ask why, for war, and reference has been made to the Facebook instance, we should be financing languages in Africa revolution. Often the analysis of experienced journalists that no one in this country understands, rather than is needed to decipher what is actually happening and to paying to have the best “X Factor”-style television impart an accurate view to the world. programme—or some other style of programme—that I heard a discussion on, I think, Radio 4 between two is under threat. history professors, one of whom said, “If we look back In one of our Committee’s final recommendations, into history and substitute the word “crowd” for “mob”, we expressed deep concern about whether the BBC we can totally change the way in which people view World Service could rely on the BBC as a whole to events.” Journalists who work for the World Service protect it under the new arrangements. One of the must be allowed to get on with the job and give their consequences of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s best analysis of what is happening so that people who relationship with the World Service is that there has do not share our privilege of living in a free society can been parliamentary accountability and scrutiny of the receive that information. World Service. I was serving on the Foreign Affairs Committee in the 1990s when attempts were made Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): under the John Birt regime to get the World Service My hon. Friend rightly talks about the importance of under the control of the BBC. Those proposals were such experienced journalists, and another advantage of dropped because Parliament was not happy about the the World Service is its independence and impartiality, possibility of the values and ethos of the World Service which is crucial for empowering people to seek democracy being undermined, and I do not believe that we have the in highly regulated states. 545 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 546

Mr Syms: Yes, and we could not buy that. As the anything like that but thanking the BBC. They are Chairman of the Select Committee has said, where the talking about the BBC World Service, of course. In that BBC withdraws a service another organisation will fill context, it is extraordinary that we are facing the prospect that vacuum, perhaps with a less good service, and of cuts to the Arabic service in particular. So, it is right probably with a less accurate one. that Ministers should be reconsidering the matter. Looking back at the events in my lifetime, it is clear The current funding relationship is somewhat that the flow of information and the use of technology uncomfortable. The Select Committee is cautious about can change worldwide events. One factor in the overthrow the eventual transfer of World Service funding to the of the Shah of Iran was the fact that he modernised his BBC and rightly says that safeguards should be telephone system so that plugs could not be pulled out, “put in place to prevent any risk of long-term erosion of the which allowed the Ayatollah to phone through the World Service’s funding and of Parliament’s right to oversee its digital system and give instructions to his followers. The work.” flow of information from western television channels The intervention by my right hon. and learned Friend telling people in East Germany that they could get out the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) to the west through a neighbouring country led to the was also well made. Provided that those safeguards can great events that resulted in the Berlin wall being torn be put in place—the Select Committee suggested a down. It is also clear from what is happening in parts of formal concordat with the BBC Trust—there is one north Africa and the rest of the world now that information advantage to the transfer of funding, which is that it is a vitally important commodity. underlines the independence of the BBC World Service The investment over decades in the Reithian tradition from political decisions about both funding and editorial of striving for truth is very important, and we should content. That is an important reassurance for World bear in mind the sums involved here. I think the figure Service listeners worldwide. for the Hindi service is £680,000, and that is very small In the meantime, we have something of a problem in in the grand scale of things. We therefore must pause to the period leading up until 2014. I welcome the Committee’s reflect, and it would be a good idea if thought was given call for funding arrangements to be re-examined. We to addressing the issue of the Department for International are happy to support it and I am glad that the Government Development budget. Aid is one answer to the world’s are accepting the motion. I appreciate, however, that problems, but good governance and truth is another. this is not as easy as it first looks. I understand, like We can greatly improve the manner in which the developing others, that Ministers have thought about this very and third world is governed by getting more truth and carefully and are aware of the issues involved. I am information into countries and getting much more openness, certainly very grateful for the time that Ministers and transparency and democracy. The World Service can, of their advisers from both DFID and the FCO have spent course, play a role in that. answering my questions on this subject, as well as those I therefore hope the Government will listen. I hope of my right hon. and hon. Friends in this Chamber and they reflect on this excellent Select Committee report, in another place. and that we do not, as it were, throw the baby out with I particularly welcome the Secretary of State for the bath water and for the sake of a small sum of money International Development’s announcement about the lose the ability to project truth, honesty and transparency prospect of a significant grant to the BBC World Service to the world, which is so valued by people who live Trust. Many development issues can be addressed in abroad and do not share our advantages. World Service programming, from gender awareness, to global responsibilities for climate change, adaptation to 2.17 pm it and how people can prepare for it, to health awareness, Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): The Liberal particularly about matters such as the HIV epidemic. Democrats welcome the debate and strongly support There are limitations, however. It is right that DFID’s the motion. The Select Committee Chairman set out funding should be restricted to matters that qualify as very well the terms of the debate and the contrast overseas development assistance and not all broadcasting between soft and hard power. Hard power in military can come within that remit. It would set a bad precedent terms is certainly often appropriate, as in the cases of if DFID was asked to fund areas that did not qualify as Libya and Afghanistan, but it is an expression of British ODA under OECD rules and we would not want that power overseas that is often fraught with military, political precedent to be set. Nor would we want World Service and financial difficulties. Even in the gentler realm of programming to be skewed completely in the direction diplomacy, we are rightly reviewing our diplomatic of development programming. The provision of presence around the world—and, it is to be hoped, information and a British perspective on world events is expanding it in many cases in light of a changing very important in many countries. The Hindi and Mandarin world—while also having to pay attention to the financial services spring to mind and the priority in those cases is context at home. not development but our economic, diplomatic, political Soft power and expressions such as “the BBC World and cultural presence, which is vital. Service” are extraordinarily cost-effective. They reach The BBC should have to examine its costs, its overheads billions of people and are enormously positive with and its back-up costs just like any other public spending. very few complications, including many of the negative It is quite right that it should try to do that and if the complications of other expressions of British interest hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) is correct, around the world. The World Service in particular has there has clearly already been an iterative process between attracted extraordinary plaudits from the likes of Kofi Ministers and the BBC on the exact nature and extent Annan and even Nelson Mandela. It has been refreshing of these cuts and their impact on particular broadcast in recent months to see placards on the streets of services. Even if that is true, following that iterative Muslim countries calling not for death to Britain or process we are still facing cuts in such vital services as 547 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 548

Arabic, Hindi and Mandarin, so it is clear that we must and be made at concessional financial terms. Those are reconsider the transitional arrangements between now the rules that the OECD insists on for something to and 2014. We should consider how we can protect those qualify as official development assistance. In this country, key services. we go further because we make it quite clear that such In the great scheme of things, the amounts of money spending must also be for the reduction of poverty. I involved are not huge. As has been pointed out by the still think, however, that we could look further at that Select Committee, they are a relatively small proportion approach. The media, and particularly the World Service, of the increases in DFID’s budget. Even within wider play a vital role in development in three ways—as a Government and FCO spending, we are not talking watchdog, in setting the agenda and by providing about large amounts of money. As I said at the outset, information that is necessary for development. the cost-effectiveness of the programming and influence The BBC World Service helps Governments to develop of the World Service and the respect that it earns this policies that benefit the majority of their population country are of almost incalculable value. I urge Ministers and it is not driven by sectional or ethnic interest. There enthusiastically to accept the motion and do whatever has been analysis of how World Service spending might they can to protect this jewel in the crown of British be classified as ODA, and I accept that this is one of broadcasting. those issues that one might say is about as long as a piece of string, but I have seen analysis showing that up 2.24 pm to 40% of spending—something like £100 million out of the total spending of £250 million, including capital— Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I congratulate the could be classified as ODA. I therefore welcome the Foreign Affairs Committee on its excellent report and I Secretary of State’s letter to the Chairman of the Foreign rise to speak in favour of the motion. I pay tribute to Affairs Committee in which he stated that he would the excellent speeches of the Chairman of the Committee be prepared to support the relationship between the and other Members. Department for International Development and the For 11 years, when I lived in Tanzania, the World World Service Trust and that he would, in principle, be Service was my main source of news. I learned of prepared to support it with an accountable grant. progress in the first Gulf war, the Bosnian conflict, the Finally, the cuts could be mitigated through better Rwandan genocide and two general elections from the use of BBC World’s own resources, perhaps by looking BBC World Service. I valued its impartial, measured at some of the salaries at the higher end of the organisation. news and comment as a service for expatriates such as me, but more importantly it was the main source of On the cuts to the service itself, the Foreign Affairs information for many of my Tanzanian colleagues. I Committee has rightly spoken about the Hindi service, remember meeting one of them the day after the 1997 BBC China and BBC Arabic, but I would like to draw general election, which he had been following very attention to the Kiswahili, Kinyarwanda and Kirundi closely on the BBC. He was amazed and impressed at services, in which I have a special interest from my time how quickly we had changed our Government in this in east Africa. Those short-‘wave and medium-wave country, and he was even more impressed that the services are accessible to people who cannot access outgoing Prime Minister went to watch a game of pretty much any other services save those provided by cricket rather than finding himself on the wrong side of their own broadcasting corporations. Those people are a jail door, having been locked up by the new Government. in remote areas, whereas internet and FM services tend It is at such times that we realise that the World Service to be available to people in urban areas. It is part of this is indeed a gift to the world, as has been said. However, Government’s policy to reach people, such as those in it is more than that. It is also important in presenting smallholder agriculture, for whom a service provided on Britain and British values to the world. At a time when short wave by the BBC might be the only such service our political and economic future is bound up ever that they can receive at certain times that is relevant to more closely with the developing world, where much of them. I therefore urge the Foreign Office to look in the World Service output is broadcast, its importance is particular at such services. growing, but it is also at this time that we are proposing In conclusion, the BBC World Service is a huge asset to make cuts to that valuable service. to the United Kingdom, but it is also of tremendous I want to distinguish between the financial cuts and importance to tens of millions across the world. Where the cuts to the service itself. I understand that the the BBC withdraws, as has been said, other less independent Foreign and Commonwealth Office cannot be exempt organisations will step in. Therefore, I support the from the cuts being made elsewhere in government, and motion. I understand that the World Service has to be part of that, but I believe that the cuts to the grant could be 2.30 pm mitigated, if not entirely made up, in four ways. First, Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): We have had a the Foreign and Commonwealth Office could revisit the short but truly excellent debate this afternoon. The hon. cuts it is making. As has been said, we are talking about Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) began cuts of 16% compared with cuts of 10% across the rest the debate by speaking powerfully as Chair of the of the FCO. Secondly, commercial activity could be Foreign Affairs Committee. He reinforced and explained expanded. World News TV is funded commercially; extremely well the main conclusions of his Committee’s indeed, I understand that it made a profit last year. report, which is first rate. He summarised the main Thirdly, as has been touched on, there could be concerns that Members have expressed today and in greater use of development funding. As has been pointed previous discussions and interventions in the House. He out, if spending is to qualify, it must be undertaken by has put a significant question mark over the Foreign the official sector and it must have as its main objective and Commonwealth Office’s financial calculations regarding the promotion of economic development and welfare the World Service. 549 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 550

[Mr Wayne David] World Service has been a source of objective information, inspiration and hope to a whole generation in Serbia, We then heard a contribution from my hon. Friend and he deeply regretted the end of its broadcasting in the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), who reiterated Serbia, because, as he said to me, democracy in that what the Chair of his Committee had said and stressed country needs to be encouraged and continually reinforced. the fact that the World Service is seen as a jewel in the What is true of Serbia is true of many other parts of crown. We heard from the hon. Member for Poole the world. The Opposition have very real concerns (Mr Syms), who gave a number of practical examples of about the Government’s plans, and this afternoon Members how the dissemination of objective information can have underlined the conclusions of the Foreign Affairs help the development of democracy in a truly practical Committee’s excellent report. As well as the loss of way. Similarly, we heard from the hon. Member for crucial influence in key countries and regions throughout Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), who reinforced the the world, the cuts will mean a diminution in Britain’s case put by other Members and made it clear where his global influence. There will be a drop of 30 million party stood on the matter. Finally, we heard from the people—from 180 million to 150 million—in the service’s hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), who spoke global audience, and such a cut is quite unprecedented. with great insight about the importance of the World There has to be an ongoing assessment of how finite Service and referred to his experience in east Africa. It resources can be best used, but such a reduction in is only by understanding such concrete examples that grant-in-aid will greatly undermine the service and send we can really appreciate the value of the World Service. a negative message around the globe—that Britain no As well as expressing concern about the short wave longer sees high quality, objective and honest reporting BBC China Mandarin service, which broadcasts in a as being particularly important. I hope that nothing is country where democracy is in short supply, I would further from the truth. like to focus briefly on two areas. First, it was initially In the order of things, the BBC World Service is a announced that the BBC Hindi short wave service was mere drop in the ocean of public expenditure, but the to close in March 2011. However, the Government money invested in the service is a sound investment—an announced a partial reprieve in March with the continuation investment that effectively promotes the universal values of an hour of current affairs broadcasting, pending of which all Members are justifiably proud. commercial funding being found. This concerns me greatly. We all know that India has enormous economic I therefore ask the Government to think again, to potential, and the Government are rightly strengthening take heed of what our friends throughout the world are their bilateral relations with that country. It is all the saying to us, to recognise the worth of the World more worrying, I suggest, that the sword of Damocles Service and not to engage in this false economy. I urge still hangs over the BBC Hindi short wave service. That the Government to accept the motion before us, and, if should not be the case. they are inclined to accept it and agree to a review, I suggest that that review takes place as quickly as possible, The other huge concern I have relates to BBC Arabic. and as a matter of urgency. The events in north Africa and the middle east over the past few months have been truly momentous, and the process of change continues apace. It is therefore extremely 2.37 pm worrying that the World Service has announced 60 job The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I losses in its Arabic service. Surely the World Service thank my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South should, if anything, be providing more resources to (Richard Ottaway) for introducing the debate, and for BBC Arabic, rather than less. I fully appreciate that doing so in a characteristically courteous and thoughtful many of the plans were drawn up before the incredible fashion; and I pay tribute to all members of the Foreign events of the past few months, but that is all the more Affairs Committee for a comprehensive report on what reason for the Government to accept that reality and all Members, whether in government or not, agree is a revisit the whole programme. matter of great public significance and of significance In addition to these concerns, I would like to give an to how we advance the interests of the United Kingdom. example of how the World Service impacts in a positive My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has said way on one country in particular. Earlier this week I frequently in opposition and in government that he sees was in Serbia. I was there with the Labour party and the the World Service as, to use the words of my hon. Westminster Foundation for Democracy. I undertook Friend, a key element of British soft power. My right the political reconnaissance as part of an ongoing hon. Friend has also underlined frequently the central assessment of how democratic debate in that country importance of the World Service and the British Council can best be assisted. Serbia has made good progress in giving this country an unrivalled platform from which over the past few years, but there is still much to be to project our culture and to share our values. done. One of the crucial elements that has helped The Government and, in particular, my right hon. Serbia’s march to democracy, as a number of people Friend will clearly want to reflect carefully on what has made very clear to me, is the BBC World Service. It is been said during this debate, but I make it clear that no exaggeration to say that there is not a single democrat there cannot be any avoidance of difficult financial in Serbia who does not acknowledge the important decisions and hard choices for the Foreign Office or for role of the World Service. Equally, there is universal the World Service, as for any part of the public sector. I disappointment that Serbia is one of those countries hope that when I have concluded my speech hon. Members that will lose World Service courage. will recognise that the Government are committed to One of the people I spoke to earlier this week was finding ways—within the terms of the existing settlement Sasa Mirkovic, the managing director of the radio and announced in October last year, and in discussions television company B92. He explained to me how the about possible additional sources of World Service 551 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 552 revenue—in which the current and potential resources aware that there has been a reduction of about 32% in available to the World Service can be used to the greatest the management costs of the World Service since 2009? possible advantage. My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), in particular, listed a number Mr Lidington: The hon. Gentleman, perhaps ways in which that might be possible. uncharacteristically, is choosing to overlook the fact that the FCO is responsible for well over 100 operations Rehman Chishti: Can the Minister confirm that in in different countries overseas and that in those 2010 the chief executive of the BBC World Service circumstances the requirements of currency operations earned £215,000 and five of his colleagues earned more and IT add up to quite a considerable overhead. I than £200,000? Does he agree that chief executives and welcome the public commitment of the World Service other senior officials should have had their salaries to a significant reduction in its administrative costs, and frozen or taken a reduction instead of cutting front-line I am sure that the House looks forward to seeing how it services? proposes to deliver that.

Mr Lidington: My hon. Friend makes an important Mr David rose— point. I am not somebody who usually harps on about high salaries for people who hold important positions Mr Lidington: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, of responsibility, but it is fair to acknowledge that the and then I will make progress, because I want to be fair BBC World Service board is responsible for a significantly to the many hon. Members who want to take part in the smaller operation with a smaller budget than the Foreign next debate. and Commonwealth Office, and yet the World Service’s board is more numerous and significantly more expensive Mr David: I hear what the Minister says, and of than the board that runs the FCO. I do not want to course we all want to see efficiency savings and economies. make too much of that, but my hon. Friend makes an However, it is important to bear in mind that the cost of emblematic point that I will come to later. producing a message or sending out a programme is I am not trying to deny that hard choices are having lower in the BBC World Service than in any other to be made, but there is a need to say to the World international broadcaster. Service, as to every other part of the public sector, that it needs to look rigorously at how to make finite budgets Mr Lidington: It is certainly important to bear such go further and try to reduce all unnecessary costs. things in mind, but many parts of the public sector in this country can point to how their best practice matches that in other parts of the world. Nevertheless, the Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): Does my right financial state in which this country finds itself as a hon. Friend believe that the BBC World Service is doing consequence of the inheritance bequeathed to us by the enough to amortise the costs of news gathering and Government of whom the hon. Gentleman was a member production among other services, including within the is so grave that we have no alternative but to ask every BBC family, before looking at a reduction in language part of our public services, no matter how well and services? efficiently they perform, to drive those efficiencies further. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South, and Mr Lidington: One of the challenges that the World indeed the report, criticised the Government’s decision Service management faces is to draw up what I hope to reduce the budget of the World Service by 16% and will be very ambitious and detailed plans to deliver a argued that it was disproportionate. To set the matter in reduction in administrative and other inessential costs context, as the House knows the Government inherited that match commitments of the sort that Government a massive fiscal deficit when they came to power. We Departments throughout Whitehall, including the FCO, made it clear from the start that it would be the are already having to make. The BBC World Service has Government’s overriding priority to take swift and effective announced that it is committed to a significant reduction. action to reduce that deficit. Every member of the We have not seen details of that, nor are we entitled to Government has always made it clear that rebalancing do so. It is an independent organisation, quite properly the nation’s finances will not be without pain and that so, although the National Audit Office and the Public every taxpayer-funded organisations will have to play Accounts Committee are of course free to investigate its part, as will the private sector. Frankly, if as a further. country we fail to deal with the overriding challenge of I hope that the World Service will choose to make our deficit, all our hopes, whether for prosperity, improved those plans public and will look to take advantage of public services or enhanced international influence for the opportunities that will arise from the new arrangements the United Kingdom, will come to naught. for the relationship between the World Service and the The World Service was asked to reduce its budget by BBC as a whole to merge and share costs where possible. 16%. The Foreign Affairs Committee has argued that For example, arrangements to combine studios for the that is disproportionate. I say candidly, but politely, to World Service and other parts of the BBC would seem my hon. Friend that I disagree with that verdict. At the to be a sensible way forward. Indeed, the BBC has beginning of the previous comprehensive spending round indicated that it is considering that in the context of the in 2007-08, the World Service budget was 13% of the new arrangements. Foreign and Commonwealth Office budget. By the end of 2014-15, its budget will be 14.4% of the FCO budget. Mike Gapes: Is the Minister aware that the BBC The proportion of its budget at the end of this World Service spends proportionately less on human Government’s tenure will therefore be slightly higher resources, finance and IT than the FCO? Is he also than it was before. To respond to the particular case put 553 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 554

[Mr Lidington] decisions, and there is no pain-free way to make the choices necessary to provide a strong voice for Britain to me by my hon. Friend, in 2007-08 the World Service in the world. I do not think the World Service can be received £222 million, and in 2013-14 it will again exempt from the need to make difficult choices. receive £222 million. However, the FCO budget will fall The World Service originally approached the Foreign from £1.7 billion in 2007-08 to £1.55 billion in 2013-14. Secretary for authority to close 13 of its 31 language It is those figures that lie behind the percentages that I services—even more closures than were authorised by quoted. the Government of whom the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David) was a member. When I heard him denounce Richard Ottaway: Is the Minister including the costs the policies of the current Government, I worried about of conflict prevention in his figures? the selective amnesia that had come over him about his Government’s record on the World Service. Mr Lidington: I will take advice on that point and come back to my hon. Friend either later in the debate My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary was not or in writing. prepared to support those suggested closures, and after frank discussion with the World Service and the BBC It is also fair to point out that the FCO has been Trust he reluctantly agreed to the closure of five services. more severely affected by the impact of foreign exchange That was after he had received clear assurances that the losses than has the World Service. From 2007 to 2011, closures would not cause major damage to the World the loss of the mechanism that protected the FCO Service’s overall services and audience share. The World against foreign exchange risk accounted for a 17% loss Service also assured us that it would make strenuous to the FCO core budget, but only a 2% loss to the BBC efforts to find efficiency savings and drive down non- World Service core budget. That discrepancy is explained editorial costs to protect its front line. It has said that it by the fact that a much greater proportion of the FCO’s will find savings of up to a third in finance, human diplomatic effort is located overseas than is the case resources, business development, strategy, marketing with the BBC World Service. and other administrative operations. The Foreign Affairs Committee has made its case, I hope that the World Service will match that and I hope that I have provided figures that back up the commitment with detailed plans, and that it will match evidence my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State the greater transparency of financial arrangements that gave and that support our contention that although the the Government have undertaken to provide. The BBC settlement is indeed tough, it is fair when set alongside is not obliged to do that under the current arrangements, what has happened to the core FCO budget over the but it would add to public confidence in the organisation, past few years. including the World Service, if it endorsed greater The World Service undoubtedly provides a valuable transparency so that taxpayers and licence fee payers service, but that is true of many other public bodies. could see where their money was being spent. The police, the military and the education system have all had to make savings, and so have the British Council There are other changes in how World Service output and UK Trade & Investment. Some of those organisations is delivered, such as the closure of radio transmissions have suffered cuts considerably larger than 16%. I am in Mandarin or the cessation of the Hindi shortwave happy to stand at the Dispatch Box and say that all service. Ministers have no power to veto such decisions. those institutions are vital assets of the UK. We do not Some access to the World Service in those languages take pleasure in what we have had to do, but the will remain, whether online or through FM or television, measures that we have taken are essential for the future but those choices fall squarely within the responsibility well-being of our country. Much as I dislike having to of the World Service—the Government were not consulted support cuts to the budget of the BBC World Service, in detail on those changes and we had no locus to we cannot in good conscience say that we support cuts intervene. The BBC believes that those decisions were in general but resist all of them in particular. soundly based, and we have seen its justification for those changes. Members will have heard the announcement by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on 11 May, in As a number of hon. Members mentioned, given which he set out plans for the future of the Foreign recent events in the middle east and north Africa, the Office’s diplomatic network. We will find £100 million a FCO chose to reprioritise in order to bolster our effort year in savings from our administration budgets, yet at there. It is entirely sensible for the World Service to do the same time we are both widening and deepening our likewise. However, even before the Arab spring, the diplomatic network. We are opening more posts and decision to curtail Arabic broadcasting was somewhat strengthening existing ones in emerging economies of surprising. key importance to this country. The savings that we are On potential sources of additional money for the having to find to finance that expansion are not easy, World Service, first, there is the prospect of commercial but they are essential if we are to develop within tough income. We agreed with the World Service that it would financial constraints. increase its sources of commercial income, with an When I go to British embassies overseas, I am left in initial target of £3 million. It is important for it to adopt no doubt about the seriousness of the choices that an entrepreneurial approach to developing that source Ministers have to make. I regularly have meetings with of income. our staff at our posts throughout Europe and the Secondly, on funding from the Department for former Soviet Union, and at practically every meeting I International Development, my hon. Friend the Member meet staff who are worried about their jobs, some of for Croydon South quite fairly pointed out that there whom have worked loyally for the FCO for a large are two genuine hurdles to be surmounted, the first of number of years. The FCO is not immune from difficult which is meeting the OECD kitemark for measures that 555 BBC World Service19 MAY 2011 BBC World Service 556 count as official development assistance. The OECD with the World Service was challenging, and we take requires that any activity that qualifies as ODA must seriously the points that have been made by the Select have the Committee and in the Chamber today and will reflect “promotion of the economic development and welfare of developing further on them. We will work with the World Service to countries as its main objective”. find ways in which it can continue to fulfil its mission as However, even if activity qualifies under OECD rules as an independent broadcasting voice that is at the same ODA, it does not necessarily meet the second, stricter time a key element in the promotion of British culture test, which is embodied in the International Development and values. Act 2002. The Act gives the Secretary of State statutory 3.1 pm authority to spend money when that allows for the relief of poverty—that is the prime measure. As my hon. Richard Ottaway: Time does not permit me to Friend mentioned, my right hon. Friend the Secretary acknowledge in detail the speeches that have been made of State for International Development is looking at a today. It has been a great debate, but the Minister must new relationship with the World Service trust. In addition, have felt a bit lonely. We have heard seven speeches the Government are approaching the OECD with a today, six of which supported the thrust of the motion view to getting its agreement to classify a proportion of and the desperate need for a review of the service, and World Service spending as subject to ODA rules. his own which was more defensive of the Government’s position. The Minister is a good friend of mine, in both It is worth noting that the settlement included money the personal and political senses, but he has not quite to be used as the contribution of the World Service to got the point that everyone has made today. the overall BBC pension deficit. The BBC says that its original estimate of that deficit has been revised down We all recognise the economic pressures on the by about one third. We do not yet know the detailed Government—indeed, everyone who spoke is a member figures for the World Service, but if, pro rata, it no of a party that supports the need to address the desperate longer needs a third of the money it has allocated for financial situation the country is in. However, it is a pensions—that would amount to about £4 million a question of priorities. When the facts change, so must year—it could choose to restore the five cut services and the policies. The circumstances in Libya have meant the Hindi service, or to restore the cuts to the Arabic, that more resources have been diverted to that country. Hindi and Mandarin services that it previously announced. The international tensions of worldwide terrorism have meant that more money has been put into the security Those choices are for the BBC. In a recent article in services. The extra need for diplomacy around the world Ariel, the World Service controller of languages said was behind the statement last week about extra funding that even if funding were reinstated, it would not necessarily for diplomacy. What colleagues are saying today is that, restart services that it had stopped, but would instead with the changing world we live in and the desperate look at new investment. Global shortwave audiences need for more soft power— are falling dramatically—20 million listeners were lost from 2009-10 alone. Mr Lidington: Will my hon. Friend give way? My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) and my hon. Richard Ottaway: I am afraid you would never forgive Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) me if I gave way, Mr Deputy Speaker. asked about the place of the World Service in the There is a desperate need to address the changing proposed new arrangements with the BBC, which will world and to take soft power more seriously. I appreciate take effect from 2014-15. As I have already said, these the fact that my right hon. Friend has agreed to a provide opportunities for things such as the combination review. I hope that it will be a constructive review and of news rooms and studios, and for different arms of that this is not brushed under the table saying, “That’s the BBC to share costs, which might help World Service the House of Commons dealt with.” The House is funds to go further. But it is also true that the BBC, serious about this and I hope the Foreign Office will be through its new chairman and director-general, has as well. made it clear that it places a high value on the World Question put and agreed to. Service and sees it continuing as a key element of BBC Resolved, output. The new governance arrangements will be That this House notes the Sixth Report from the Foreign guaranteed by an amendment to the BBC agreement Affairs Committee, The Implications of Cuts to the BBC World between the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Service, HC 849; endorses the Committee’s support for the World Media and Sport and the BBC. We are discussing with Service’s invaluable work in providing a widely respected and the BBC Trust a formal exchange of letters to confirm trusted news service in combination with high-quality journalism this. The BBC Trust is also considering an international to many countries; considers that the unfolding events in North trustee to represent the interests of the World Service. Africa and the Middle East demonstrate the continuing importance of the soft power wielded through the World Service; believes that Even after the cuts, the World Service will still receive the value of the World Service far outweighs its relatively small funding from the British taxpayer of £733 million over cost; and invites the Government to review its decision to cut the next three years. The settlement that we came to spending on the World Service by 16 per cent. 557 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 558 Coverage Rural Broadband and Mobile Coverage Ministers, including the Minister here today, the Secretary of State and all the communities that have been working so hard. I hope that others will develop that point, but 3.3 pm again, although it is unfair to pick out names, I want to Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): I beg mention those extraordinary people in Eden—Libby to move, Bateman, Miles Mandelson and others in the Leith- That this House recognises that rural businesses and rural Lyvennet broadband group—who have been pushing communities across the UK are isolated and undermined by slow ahead with their programme. However, that is not the broadband and the lack of mobile voice and mobile broadband subject of my speech today. coverage; urges Ofcom to increase the coverage obligation attached I am here to speak about mobile broadband coverage. to the 800MHz spectrum licence to 98 per cent.; and calls upon the Government to fulfil its commitment to build both the best I will take 30 seconds to explain the issue. This is the superfast broadband network in Europe and provide everyone in last chance for a generation to provide good mobile the UK with a minimum of 2 Mbps by 2015. broadband coverage for 6 million people who will not I am grateful for the opportunity to move this motion, otherwise get it. It is the last chance because, at the end which also bears the names of 100 other Members of of the month, the Ofcom consultation closes. That Parliament. When I last saw Ed Richards, the head of consultation will determine the coverage obligation imposed Ofcom, he said that the most powerful argument he on mobile telephone companies for the 800 megahertz required was a political argument. He wanted to hear spectrum. This is a spectrum on which we all depend for that Members of Parliament cared about broadband our smartphones, our iPads and iPhones. It is also a and mobile coverage. If that is all he requires, I might as spectrum that is ideal for rural areas. So why has Ofcom well resume my seat now. I am not an expert on the stated in its consultation that it has no intention of constitutional history of this House, but as far as I increasing the coverage from the current level, which, as know there have not been so many names on a motion hon. Members will know, is 95% of the population, on the Order Paper for debate on the Floor of the 90% of the time? That equates to about 87% of the House in recent memory. population. I wish to thank very much everybody who has supported this motion. I wish to thank first my hon. Friends from Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Does the hon. Cumbria, on both sides of the House, as well as the Gentleman accept that it is not even that level of coverage? many Members who have put so much energy into The companies produce maps claiming that there is mobile broadband over the last three to five years. That coverage, only for people to find—I am in this position includes my hon. Friends the Members for Skipton and at home—that it does not actually work. Ripon (Julian Smith), for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) and for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), Rory Stewart: That is an enormously good point. It is and of course many Members from other parties. From a matter of bewildering complexity.Ofcom is over-layering the Liberal Democrats, we have had contributions from four different models dependent on masts, terrain, the hon. Members for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter topography and thickness of walls, and the reality is, Ross (John Thurso), for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) and as the hon. Gentleman says, that 90% of the time for for Chippenham (Duncan Hames)—to roll out the Cs—and 95% of the people is probably an overestimate of what from the Labour side, we have had support from the we are currently getting. hon. Member for Dagenham and Rainham (Jon Cruddas), and the right hon. Members for Coventry North East Nevertheless, Ofcom states in its consultation document (Mr Ainsworth) and for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). We that it can see no benefits from extending the coverage have also had support from the Scottish National party further. In fact, it states on page 67 that the costs would and Plaid Cymru. outweigh the benefits. Why? Because it is worried about losing money in the auction—nobody knows how much— What, though, is the motion facing us today? It has and is worried that when it tries to sell the radio three parts. The first focuses on rural need, which I spectrum, which it owns, to the mobile telephone companies hope Members will address in their speeches. The second and asks them to increase their coverage obligation focuses on mobile coverage, and the third focuses on the from 95% to 98% these companies might pay less in the Government’s commitment to super-fast broadband. auction. Indeed, they may. It stands to reason they All three are connected. In a sense, it is already outdated would pay less, but probably not as much less as Ofcom to separate them. It is increasingly clear that a separation fears. between voice coverage and data coverage is a thing of the past; that an attempt to separate the rural areas from the urban areas is a thing of the past. The central Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): It may indeed fact about broadband and mobile coverage is that it stand to reason, but the evidence from past auctions of is—not to be too pretentious—a single global universe. the spectrum does not show bidders producing bids Nevertheless, I will hand over to other Members, who while in any sense respecting the cost base of the project will talk about the first and third elements of the on which they are about to embark. motion. I will focus exclusively on the second part—the mobile coverage obligation. Rory Stewart: That is an excellent point. The reality Enormous thanks are due not just to the many Members of auctions is not that people operate on a fully rational whom I have mentioned, but to the civil servants who basis, counting the number of their masts and then have worked unbelievably hard in Broadband UK to bidding exactly less than that. We have all participated make this happen. It is unfair to pick out names, but I in auctions. They are elaborate psychological procedures would like, in particular, to thank Mike Kooley, Rob that are exactly designed to extract as much money as Sullivan and Jim Savage. I would also like to thank possible. 559 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 560 Coverage Coverage Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): My hon. pocket—this mobile device—and that everyone else has Friend is putting the point so eloquently that this is a in their pocket matter in five years’ time? Will people be once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to cover the sorts of using iPads and iPhones then? If we have reason to constituents that he and I represent, along with many believe that the technology is important, why are we others in the House. Does he agree that there is a risk proposing to leave between 6 million and 9 million in that Ofcom is being penny wise, pound foolish, and that this country on the current figures excluded from using in future it could become very expensive for this country these machines? For the sake of what? Why exactly are to have truly mobile broadband? we being told that those people should not be able to use the technology? Rory Stewart: My hon. Friend makes exactly the I hardly need explain to the people in the Chamber right point, and much better than I could. “Penny wise, why this technology matters or what its uses are. Others pound foolish” is exactly right. To put it bluntly, it is a will develop that far more, but to run through them no-brainer. This is the time to act. If we are going to do quickly, the fantastic comment made by my hon. Friend it, we should do it now. There is some fantasy out there the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) was that if we get it wrong, we can go back to the mobile absolutely right. Our economy is driven by these devices. telephone companies in two or three years’ time and Growth comes from productivity, and the biggest, simplest say, “We’re very sorry, we didn’t impose an obligation contribution that we can make to productivity in this on you, but would you mind awfully providing 98% country is through broadband and mobile coverage, coverage?” However, by that time they will already have which is particularly true for rural areas, as the many begun to lay out their infrastructure and will have made people in the Chamber from such areas know. Why? their decisions. Acting then will be more expensive, the Because the biggest contribution to economic growth mobile telephone companies will be under no obligation through mobile and broadband technology is made by to do so, and we will have to pay them. At that point small and medium-sized enterprises. What do we have their interests will not be aligned with ours. predominantly in rural areas? Small and medium-sized If we impose an obligation at the right moment and enterprises. My constituency is an example. The national say, “You’ve got the licence; now provide 98% coverage,” average is that SMEs occupy 50% of the private sector, their interests will be to provide it as cheaply and but in Penrith and The Border, SMEs with fewer than efficiently as possible. If, on the other hand, we approach 10 employees employ 92% of our work force. Furthermore, the mobile telephone companies in three years’ time as because we are almost starting from scratch in rural a contractor, we should remember that there will then areas, we are not talking about a slight increase in speed be an additional problem. As my hon. Friend suggests, from 2 megabits to 3 megabits; we are talking about a if we do it now, there is no cost to the taxpayer. The step change in economic productivity for rural areas. money would not come from raising taxes from people We are also talking about making a real difference in or stealing it from another Department. All that we public services. As we all know, more and more public would be doing is taking the risk that we would make services are being driven online. In Cumbria, for example, slightly less in the auction. That would not be the case the justification for the Cumbria police closing police in three years’ time. If in three years’ time we suddenly stations is that they want policemen to be on the streets wanted to spend £215 million on building masts, we more, using their tablets to transmit data straight back would have to tax people or move money from other to the police station. Nurses and doctors visiting people Departments; and we absolutely know that people who in their homes rely on being able to transmit data in real say, “Give me that bird in your hand, because I can time back to a hospital from the home. Education is promise you those two in the bush in three years’ time,” being transformed by online learning. In the United are almost certainly misleading us. This is the time to States, 40% of post-secondary school students are taking do it. a course online. Recent research by Carnegie Mellon university suggests that mixed online and classroom George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): While my learning can increase the speed at which children learn hon. Friend is on the subject of investment in broadband by 100%. And I do not need to talk about Twitter, paying for itself, does he agree that part of the significance Facebook and all the other things that everyone in of the measure—the Government are to be congratulated London, and every child in those parts of the country on the investment—is that every pound that we spend with mobile coverage, take for granted, except to ask on rural broadband will pay back UK plc in spades? why everyone else should be excluded. In my constituency, where coverage is extremely poor, communities are waiting for the opportunity to start Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): My hon. businesses back in villages and drive a model of sustainable Friend is making an extremely powerful and eloquent development. The investment will pay for itself; we speech. In rural areas, we spend more time travelling merely need to think about how we recoup that benefit from place to place, because the distances are greater. and use it to invest in infrastructure. The coverage figures that he has given are those for static people when they are at home, but in fact, we Rory Stewart: That is a fantastic point. I will come to spend far more time travelling from A to B, and our growth in a second, but perhaps, rather than taking any communication is often broken further when we do so. more interventions, I could now make some progress and accelerate through my speech so that everyone can Rory Stewart: My hon. Friend makes a very good get in. point. There is only one question—the fundamental question— My argument is about mobile broadband coverage. that we need to ask Ofcom: does mobile broadband What is the argument against extending it in the way technology matter? Will this thing that I have in my that I have suggested? It is cost. Ofcom’s only argument 561 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 562 Coverage Coverage [Rory Stewart] way a business can compete and survive—but because you don’t happen to be located in the very centre of is that it is worried that it might make a little less in the London, you are not going to be able to work in that auction. Let us say that, based on the Swedish and way.” ? German models, the auction is going to generate about Are we to say to a farmer, “Through this technology, £3.215 billion. Ofcom is worried that it might make you might be able to use special identification tags and only £3 billion. For a number of reasons, that is probably make some use of the astonishing bureaucracy being an underestimate. That £215 million represents an absolute imposed on you, but only if you happen to be farming worst-case scenario. Let us look this directly in the eye: in Chelsea. If you are farming in the uplands of Cumbria, £215 million is less than we spend in three weeks on our you might as well forget about it.”? operations in Afghanistan. In fact, mobile coverage is We are looking for a positive narrative. We are looking one of the smartest, cheapest forms of infrastructure for a narrative around growth. We are looking for investment that we can make. It is far cheaper than fixed growth, which is not effectively saying, “Oh, we are just telephone lines, and far cheaper than ports or roads. As going to get 90% of the country going”. We are looking far as infrastructure investment that would create real for growth that is saying, “We want 100% of this productive growth in the British economy is concerned, country going.”Growth is about productivity; productivity £215 million is a small sum of money. is about the internet. If we are looking for a positive narrative, let it be this: at the moment, our best mobile Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): next-generation coverage is worse than that of Uzbekistan. Could the hon. Gentleman give me some clarification I know something about Uzbekistan. I would not be on the figure of £215 million in lost revenue through a surprised if someone were to stand up and say to me, change in the coverage? What is the basis for that “In Uzbekistan, there are more political prisoners in jail estimate, and have the providers supported it? than there are in Britain”. However, I am not just surprised, but horrified to learn that in Uzbekistan, the Rory Stewart: It is a very basic estimate predicated mobile next-generation coverage is better than it is in on the assumption that, to increase from 95% to the United Kingdom. 98% coverage, we would need to build approximately Let us stand behind this motion. Let us push Ofcom 1,500 masts, and that the average cost of a mast hovers with all our might to take that small risk to reach that at just under £150,000. So the figure of £215 million 98% of coverage. Let us not allow the clever arguments represents a worst-case scenario. The assumption is that of narrow economists who are blind to technology and the mobile phone companies will cover some of the obsessed with making their auction feature in a particular costs of the masts anyway, because they will get increased fashion allow Britain to miss the chance to get what it revenue as a result of installing them. The Government needs for its economy, for its society, for its health, for should not have to pay for all those masts. Furthermore, its education and for its communities by signing up to companies such as Three already have the infrastructure the best superfast mobile and broadband coverage in in place, and were those companies to win that chunk in Europe. the auction, they would not have to pay to install new masts. The £215 million is a worst-case projection for Several hon. Members rose— getting up to 1,500 extra masts and pushing through to 98% coverage. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am introducing Are we prepared to turn around in 2015 and say to a 10-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions, with people in this country and people in our constituencies, the usual injury time for interventions. “No, everybody else in the world can have this thing, but you can’t have it. In every other part of Britain, if you happen to live in central London, you will be able 3.23 pm by 2015 to attach a device to your heart, which can Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I monitor your vital signs, transmit in real time to a congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on hospital, regulate your drug intake and help you stay at securing this important debate. I know personally how home. I am sorry, though, but you live in Northumbria difficult it can be to interest hon. Members in technical and you are not going to be allowed to have it”? subjects. It is to the credit of the hon. Member for Are we prepared to turn around to students and say, Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) that he has been “Everywhere else in this country, if you happen to live so successful in communicating the critical nature of in Chelsea or the centre of Manchester, you can do our broadband infrastructure and the importance of online learning, you can learn the harp, you can study the coming spectrum auction. German or Russian. In fact, you can study anything I declare an interest: before being elected I worked for you want from anyone you want at any time you want, the telecommunications regulator, Ofcom. [HON.MEMBERS: but unfortunately you live in Suffolk, so you are not “Hear, hear”.] I thank hon. Members for that! Before going to be able to do those things.”? that, I worked for 17 years in telecommunications in the By 2015 it will not be just data-rich businesses or private sector. I was personally most grateful for the rise internet-rich businesses, but the basic small and medium- of the internet because it finally enabled me to explain sized enterprises that will be dependent on these devices what I did for a living when I was working on an to cut their transaction costs, increase their reach to “integrated services digital network private branch market, drop their advertising costs and so on. Are we exchange”, which was double Dutch to most people. prepared to turn round to every one of those businesses Being able to say that I was helping to build the internet and say, “Of course it is extremely beneficial for a meant that my friends and family could finally have business to have these services—in fact, it is the only confidence that I had a legitimate occupation. 563 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 564 Coverage Coverage Of course, we have far more important reasons to be have apparently committed themselves to providing grateful to the internet, some of which were mentioned universal broadband by 2015, but that leaves us still by the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border; others four years away from a decent broadband service for all. will doubtless be raised during the debate. The internet is well on the way to becoming a necessity rather than Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I something that it is nice to have. For some, the transition hate to break up the cosy consensus, but I am going to has already taken place. According to the Federation of anyway. I understand that the Opposition are claiming Small Businesses, 90% of its members use the internet in the media that they could deliver broadband roll-out in running their businesses, and a third of those think both faster and at considerably lower expense than that the broadband speed is reducing their productivity. proposed by the coalition Government—indeed, That is a real indictment of the current level of broadband £200 million less. Can the hon. Lady tell the House of provision. If broadband is such a necessity, why have any project at all that the Labour Government delivered the Government delayed the provision of universal both on time and on budget, let alone in reduced time access until 2015? and at reduced budget? I welcome the motion’s emphasis on the importance of broadband, but I want to focus on the part that calls Chi Onwurah: The previous Government committed for the mobile auction coverage requirement to be to providing universal broadband access at 2 megabits extended from 95% to 98%. I could talk for a long time by 2012, whereas it is my understanding that the current about the strengths and importance of broadband, but Government have made a commitment to the best I want to focus on that specific technical area, because it broadband—there is some doubt as to the exact definition is in that regard that I fear that the objectives of many of that term—by 2015. Our project was to be implemented Government Members may not be realised not by the Government, but by the private sector, and Ofcom is not primarily concerned with raising revenue, with the right incentives. It was not only fully planned, as the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border suggested. but fully costed, and had the support of the vast majority Its primary aim, generally and as set out in the directive, of the telecommunications industry, who agreed that it is to maximise competition. If pressure is being placed was feasible. The current proposal to deliver superfast on Ofcom to consider the amount of revenue raised, broadband by 2015 is, however, not fully costed, as I am that pressure is coming from the Government. Ofcom is sure broadband companies would set out in detail. consulting on a 95% coverage requirement because that The coverage obligations do not match private sector is the coverage that mobile operators feel they can business cases, and, unfortunately, are a very crude and achieve without significant additional investment. It is ineffective way of correcting what is, effectively, market about putting equipment on existing base stations rather failure. There will be a cost to the public purse, but than building new ones. Considerable costs will still be unlike in a directed programme, we will not have any incurred, because the equipment is costly, but Ofcom say as to how that money is spent; so the Treasury will has judged that the cost will not prove prohibitive to the lose money, but we will have no guarantee or say as to private sector business case. I am sure that Members on how it is invested. both sides of the House recognise the importance of a valid business case to investments in the private sector. Rory Stewart: What does the hon. Lady think of the However, extending coverage to 98% would increase the simple proposal to set out the number of additional cost considerably. I was interested in the estimate of masts required? If Stephen Temple were to propose that £250 million from the hon. Member for Penrith and there should simply be, let us say, 1,500 additional long- The Border. I note that the Ofcom consultation specifically term evolution masts, rather than setting a 98% coverage avoids giving an estimate, on the basis that the modelling target, that would be much simpler to measure, there is too complex and time-consuming to undertake at would be no debates about how exactly the plan would be present. modelled, and costs would be much more straightforward. One thing that should be emphasised is the importance of getting the spectrum out there as quickly as possible. Chi Onwurah: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman We do not want to spend too much time on network has launched himself so deeply into the detail of network economic modelling. However, we must also recognise infrastructure roll-out. I hope the vast majority of Members that adding a line to a licence requirement will not get on the Government Benches would agree with me that that equipment out into the field; nor will it get mobile we do not want to specify to private companies exactly broadband into Members’ constituencies. We need to how they must roll-out their infrastructure, the number ensure that private sector companies are properly of masts they will need to put in place, the equipment incentivised. they should use, or the technology choices they should make. I would not therefore support specifying the Increasing the mobile coverage requirement may well number of masts, although that is an interesting proposal. reduce the Treasury’s income. I agree with the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border that that would be Specifying the coverage is a useful way of trying to a reasonable price to pay if we could be sure of the ensure efficient roll-out, but my concern is that if the results, but there are two main concerns. The coverage coverage that is specified does not accord with the good requirement is for 2017. That might seem a long time to and effective business case, there will be unintended, wait—indeed, to small businesses painfully watching and potentially perverse, consequences. the hated Microsoft hourglass turn it must seem an eternity—but it is worth noting that the 3G coverage Duncan Hames: One consequence would be a cross- requirement, which was for only 80%, was not met until subsidy from those—perhaps in urban areas—who enjoy seven years after the auction. Can the rural small businesses low-cost services to those of us in other parts of the of this country really wait so long? The Government country who might not, but who would therefore be 565 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 566 Coverage Coverage [Duncan Hames] Roeburndale to the distant villages of Wray, Melling and Wennington. Only 1,000 properties were going to able to share in the network. Given that we support be provided with high-speed optic fibre. The group such consequences in respect of the Royal Mail universal applied for a £750,000 grant from the rural development service obligation, why should we not support them in programme—that was all. As everyone knows, optic the context of broadband or mobile coverage? fibre is costly and the community planned to get over the cost by digging the ducts. The farmers gave permission Chi Onwurah: My party is known for supporting because it was a community enterprise. redistribution in many areas and we would certainly The people involved, who lead busy working lives, support cross-subsidy, which is effectively the result, went through the whole process because they saw farmers if that were the only consequence. When I speak of in the hills of Lancashire having to travel miles every unintended consequences, I am suggesting we might month to find the nearest internet access to fill in the not, perhaps, get the optimum mobile coverage within Rural Payments Agency’s licence and registration forms three years or one year because the coverage requirement for every sheep and every cow. Children travelled miles is for 2017, which might concentrate the minds of the to find the nearest internet access because the homework mobile operators on that date. for certain courses required internet access, which was Rory Stewart: Will the hon. Lady clarify what she not available in the hill-top villages. For all those reasons, proposes to do to ensure that an additional 3 million the whole community got together and made some people get coverage? progress on the project for just £750,000—not a great deal compared with the sums that have gone missing Chi Onwurah: I thank the hon. Gentleman for asking over the past 13 years. Then, for the best of reasons the that; I have very little time left, so I shall race to that Northwest Regional Development Agency decided in point. The most effective way for a Government to its dying days this year to give the county council intervene in a market is to direct subsidy in the most £20 million for broadband access across the whole of effective way possible to incentivise network coverage in Lancashire. One might say that was an absolute positive, the areas it is required. I suggest to hon. Members that but what happened to our £750,000 programme? It rather than hiding behind indirect intervention through somehow got trapped in the bureaucracy and it has the regulator and blaming the regulator’s short-sightedness, been swept up into the £20 million. For the best of we should clearly set out that we want universal access reasons, the county council, which has more than my to standard broadband for all by 2012 and we should area to deal with as areas all around want broadband, ensure that we have the means to achieve it. has to put the contract out to tender to commercial companies. The people who have worked hard on this—I 3.36 pm pay tribute to two people in particular in my area, Barry Forde and Chris Conder, who have worked tirelessly—have Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I estimated that if commercial companies come in, it will congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith cost more because they will not get free access across and The Border (Rory Stewart), who has pressed this fields. After all, why should a farmer grant free access to issue on our behalf and who has got us to this stage. His BT, Vodafone or whoever? They would have to charge enthusiasm and eloquence is being listened to by the them and the cost would be about £5,000 to £10,000 per Government. I do not call myself a technical expert, property. Given the 1,000 properties I have mentioned, unlike my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Newcastle the cost for my small area alone would be £10 million, upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah). I want to focus, so where is the £20 million going to go? following on from what the hon. Lady said, on the law To be fair to the county, it has the best of intentions of unintended consequences, but regarding general strictures and I give credit to the coalition Government for trying about what has happened over the past 13 years. to drive this through. I know that Ministers, especially I, as a new Member of Parliament, and all of us have the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, fought in our areas on behalf of the rural sector of our Media and Sport, the hon. Member for Wantage constituencies. We might have fought on behalf of the (Mr Vaizey), understand both this issue and the urban-rural local pub, of the last remaining village shop or of the divide. However, in my area we are possibly going to last remaining small village school. As my hon. Friend lose a whole big society project. Rural communities, said, this is a once in a lifetime chance to get things right who have always felt isolated and separated, have almost and to reverse what is happening across the country and got to the point of accepting that this is how things in all our constituencies. Villages and hamlets are either are—that the towns get everything. They think that the becoming distant dormitory suburbs of a town or a towns are where their children will move when they museum piece showing a long-lost England. In fact, grow up and that perhaps one or two of them will come historically speaking, they were the centres of business back to retire; that is how we end up with the dormitory and enterprise, and for many of us the internet provided villages that so many of us recognise. The big society many people in those villages with a huge opportunity project in my area has been swept away along with all it to restore something to village life. If we miss it, as hon. had brought in terms of community and social contact Members have said, we have missed it for a generation. across the hills and valleys and between hamlets. There Let me give an example from my constituency. A is also a possibility that because of the cost local people community group came up with its own idea to revive will not get the superfast broadband they need for the the area, right in the hills of deepest rural Lancashire. next generation. The group got the whole community together with a programme that covered a number of villages. The plan Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I must declare an was to cover Over Wyresdale and Quernmore with an interest because I am still a Lancashire county councillor. extension through the small hamlets of Littledale and As such I have quite an interest in the hon. Gentleman’s 567 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 568 Coverage Coverage comments. The BT contract that has been struck by the means to deliver it. There is always space for him on the Conservative administration is taking a very top-down Opposition Benches—quite a lot of space at the moment. approach and it has been criticised for that. I understand He made the point that, “Of course we can spend why he is speaking out for his constituents, but it is money on X; look at how much we spend everyday on within his party’s hands to do something about this all these terrible wars”, which would chime very well issue, as it is the top-down approach of Lancashire with what some of my colleagues say; I was surprised to county council that is being criticised. hear it from the Conservative Benches. I have worked with him on the need for faster broadband in Cumbria Eric Ollerenshaw: It is a pity that the hon. Gentleman and will say more about that in a moment. has to reduce this matter to party politics given that It was good to follow the very well-made speech by there has been a genuine attempt across parties to get it the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric right. I remind him that for 13 years nothing at all Ollerenshaw). He said that nothing had been done over happened except the decline of those villages. I said that the past 13 years, and obviously I wish that in many those involved had the best intentions and were trying areas we had gone faster. We now need to accelerate to get the best results, as are the Government, and many progress, but I do not remember being able in 1997 to sit of us are still working to do that. in my room in Barrow—it is upstairs, admittedly—and We might lose our big society project but, more flick through the 3G and wi-fi on my iPhone, so things importantly, although the broadband that will come to have really improved. The regulatory framework put in the hills of Lancashire will be great and will mean that place by the previous Government has been part of children and farmers in my area will finally be able to that, and the Minister has past experience of that. We get on to the internet, it is estimated that most of that should recognise that much has been done and that will be down copper wires or by satellite, so when the much more needs to be done. next stage comes, as the technical experts my hon. I should also say that I have written to Mr Speaker to Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border and the ask to be excused from the winding-up speeches, as I am hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central understand travelling to Scotland this evening for the funeral of far better than I do, we will end up, yet again, with the David Cairns tomorrow. I hope that the Minister and same divide between rural and urban England. other Members will excuse me. In the brief time available, I want to stress the economic Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman importance of faster broadband networks in my clarify something? I understand that Lancashire county constituency and across Cumbria. We of course want council is probably the first local authority to put such faster roll-out and see the urgency of that. I am happy provision out to tender. Has it tendered on the basis of to support the motion tabled by the hon. Member for coverage being provided by one operator for the whole Penrith and The Border, but we need to do this as fast county or has it left open the possibility of different as possible, and 2015 is still a significant way off. There operators providing services in different parts of the is a need for greater action from the Government and county? from broadband providers, which we must not forget. Eric Ollerenshaw: My understanding is that it is one I want to mention the example of Kates Skates in operator, but I stand to be corrected on that. It is also Barrow. Barrow is an urban areas, but urban areas my understanding that it is attempting to take into within larger rural counties experience these problems account my concerns and those of the villages in my cheek by jowl with people and companies that would constituency. more readily be associated with rural surroundings, as the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood noted. Everyone in this arena is trying to get this done. We In 1996, Chris and Catherine Palmen thought that it all understand what the issue is and that it needs to be would be a good idea to construct an indoor ice rink in dealt with now. All I am trying to do is explain the the centre of Barrow. It actually turned out to be a bad examples from my constituency.We may well get something idea, which did not get anywhere at all, but their story is in rural Lancashire, but it might be something that in a testament to our extraordinary entrepreneurial spirit in couple of years’ time prevents us from getting to the Furness and throughout the country, because unperturbed next stage. I hope that we do not miss that bus and end by the mammoth flop of that business the Palmens up with yet another division between rural and urban decided to go into retail. areas. I hope that the Government will understand that as they plot to achieve the 98% coverage that my hon. Kates Skates started with ice skates and quickly Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border wants expanded to the point now where it has possibly Europe’s to see. We must take into account the communities and largest range of skates, skateboards, snowboards—if the fact that they themselves want to contribute to any Government Members are skater boys or girls, they achieve something. If we get that right, we will get it can help me out—and scooters. The company has a right for more than a generation. really tremendous range, ships upwards of 250 orders a day from its small store and employs about 20 people, with 5% of its orders coming from the shop in Furness 3.45 pm and 95% from online orders from the rest of the UK John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): and, increasingly, Europe. I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on That is exactly the kind of business that we need to securing the debate and, of course, the hon. Member promote to ensure that such concerns can prosper anywhere for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), my Cumbrian in the UK, but the Palmens tell me of their enormous neighbour, on leading it. He made a superb speech that frustration at their slow broadband connection, which touched incredibly well on many issues, particularly the really hampers their internal processes. They spent quite need for a narrative and action on growth and the a lot of money developing 3D images of their products, 569 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 570 Coverage Coverage [John Woodcock] absolutely right to put in place steps to ensure that we can grow, right across the country, to the extent that we but having reached that stage they realised that they need to. could not put them online because their broadband link The Government need to put in place a more robust was too slow to sustain them. We have to be able to do framework. We made that case strongly before the something about that. Companies such as Kates Skates election and continue to do so. There is also a role for say, “We started up in the area where we are from, we the big providers, which need to do more than they are want to stay there, we love the quality of life in Barrow doing at present. I am pleased that BT has sustained and the access to elsewhere in the Lake district, and we work at its call centre in Barrow, which was earmarked don’t want to move to a larger city.”The Palmens are in for closure. After a robust campaign by me and by an increasingly difficult situation, however, because of workers and the Communication Workers Union, BT the slow broadband with which they are forced to thought again and is now talking about increasing the contend. level of work in that call centre. One of the reasons it Many people have raised this problem with me, and I initially gave for the difficulty in bringing work into the am sure that we will hear further examples throughout area was that it did not have the broadband speed that the day. CGP Books in Broughton, a great company some places in India had. That is a very alarming fact producing textbooks, has itself shelled out for a faster that shows the clear business need to speed up the level link, but the increasing costs are obviously affecting its of service. bottom line. Furness Internet, which provides services I would say to BT and other companies that competitions throughout the area, has frustrated customers who such as Race to Infinity, which I imagine a lot of areas want to do more but cannot because of a single point of represented here took part in, must not merely be a data failure: the data cable that it purchased at great expense. capture exercise in which the top five win and the The company says that the cable is relatively reliable at companies end up with massive numbers of people to the moment, but if it goes down, all the customers of write to about products in future. It is important to Furness Internet will be up the swanny, and that is reflect the clear business need that exists in these areas really worrying for people who are looking to locate to and the business case for putting in superfast broadband. the area. I spoke to the head of Cumbria’s chamber of It is vital to strengthen the framework, but we also need commerce today, who stressed how absolutely essential more action from the private companies in doing the it is for us to sort out the problem if we are to drive right thing by the many individuals who rely on superfast wider progress in the county. broadband and by the businesses that are crying out for it so that they can grow. George Freeman: I believe that in a previous existence the hon. Gentleman used to advise the right hon. Member 3.58 pm for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) when he Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): It is perhaps apt was Prime Minister, and I was wondering how much of that I follow the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness the £20 billion-odd that the former Government raised (John Woodcock), because he and I both know what it through the sale of 3G licences was reinvested in the is like to feel pain. We have suffered together. Last week, rural broadband network. If a little of that money had he and I, and other hon. Members, including my hon. been invested, would we not be in a better position Friends the Members for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) today? and for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), went off to the Falkland Islands, where John Woodcock: It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman we endured a 3G desert. There is no 3G mobile service mentions my former boss, the former Prime Minister, in the Falkland Islands. If, Mr Deputy Speaker, you see and mobile phones. His robust, old-school Nokia survived an elected Member of Parliament wrenched from his many trials and tribulations, during even my time working BlackBerry—or CrackBerry, as it is known—and unable for him. Those rumours are not true, by the way—just to tweet for a whole seven days, you will understand to be clear. what real pain is like. Look, investment was made. There are real questions Having endured the indignity of not having 3G for a about whether there was enough investment, and about week, I rather understand the terrible situation that whether progress moved fast enough, but there has been many of my constituents and constituents of other hon. very fast progress. Does it need to be faster in future? Members suffer not just for a week but on a regular Unquestionably, yes, and that is what we are here to basis, and the impact on their quality of life and ability discuss. to do their jobs and keep in touch with friends and family. It has a massive effect, and we should not Rory Stewart: I hesitate to invite the hon. Gentleman underestimate it. to come and join us on the Government Benches, but Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): could he explain why this country rates lower than Does my hon. Friend agree that the frustration in Romania in terms of the download speeds on our certain constituencies is added to when wonderful maps mobile broadband networks? are produced by Ofcom that suggest that they have coverage, whereas the practical reality for many constituents John Woodcock: This is not only an issue for the is that they simply do not have that coverage? That Government but for the private sector and for individuals. rather adds insult to injury. There was a collective failure to anticipate the rate of growth across the world and how critical it would Andrew Griffiths: I absolutely agree with my hon. become to people going about their business and to the Friend. In fact, the situation is worse than that. All operation of businesses and public services. It is now Members have constituents who pay for broadband 571 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 572 Coverage Coverage services that they do not receive. Some of my constituents The inconsistency of provision is a major problem for a in Burton pay for what they are assured is 8-megabit large number of people not just in my constituency but, broadband, but receive 0.9-megabit broadband. The I am sure, across the country. frustration of buying a product that one does not receive is massive. I therefore share his concerns. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Even in As we speak, there are people in my constituency of Hampshire, where the county council has invested heavily Burton who are desperate to stream Parliament TV live, in its public services network, it is calculated that by but who are unable to do so because of their inability to 2015, 20% of people and businesses will still be unable access fast broadband. One of the issues that appears to get access that is anything other than very slow, if most consistently, week upon week, in my postbag as a they can get it at all. We are talking about 25,000 constituency MP, if one excludes automated campaigns businesses and 112,000 people. on issues such as forests, is access to broadband. It is incumbent on us, as politicians, to represent that frustration, which we have heard about, and to get something done Andrew Griffiths: My hon. Friend is exactly right, about it. On that point, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend and at a time when we have a global economy and the the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) internet provides access to employment, contracts and for giving one of the most interesting, informative and business, it is simply unacceptable for people to be motivational speeches that I have heard in this Chamber denied that facility. I know that the Minister is passionate for a long time. He is a credit to those who campaign for about the subject, but we desperately need to see some faster broadband and we are delighted to have him movement forward. leading the charge. In opening the debate, my hon. Friend the Member I would like to pay tribute to the efforts of certain for Penrith and The Border talked about the trade-off people in my constituency. The first is Ian Page, who is between the auction price and the cost to UK plc as a evangelical, bordering on obsessive, about getting faster trading organisation. If we asked people in my constituency broadband for Burton and the outlying areas. Many about that trade-off, I think they would say, “Give us hon. Members will know that my constituency is an faster broadband now”. I hope that the Minister is interesting mix of urban areas—Burton is a brewing receiving that message loud and clear. town—and outlying villages, many of which are incredibly We talk about rural broadband, but in my constituency rural. Ian has run a campaign over many months and there are villages such as Anslow and Tatenhill that are years, and has put in a great amount of his own time. only 1 mile or 1½ miles outside the central Burton area He runs street stalls, starts petitions and has a website. but whose internet access is incredibly sporadic or in We are very lucky to have him in our constituency, many cases non-existent. because he does a great deal of work. I also pay tribute to my local newspaper, the Burton Mail, which has consistently run a campaign to force BT, kicking and Chi Onwurah: The hon. Gentleman has spoken screaming, to improve broadband access in my constituency. eloquently about the impact of slow broadband on his The reason for those campaigns is that the current constituents. If he asked them, would they say they broadband service is stopping growth and jobs in my wanted universal broadband coverage by 2012 as the constituency. I know of at least three businesses that Labour Government proposed? were looking to relocate in the Burton constituency, but decided not to simply because of the poor quality of the Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Lady asks an interesting broadband access. One was a printer, who needed question. I think they would say, “We want faster broadband access to download graphics and large files broadband, and we want it now”. We all understand for his business. He had no choice but to move elsewhere that feeling. in Derbyshire, where the broadband access is better. It is frustrating as a constituency MP, desperate as I am to It is incumbent on BT in particular to focus on what bring new jobs and employment to my area, to see that it can do to extend coverage to people who are at the hampered by BT’s inability to provide the internet access end of the line. Villages such as those that I mentioned, that is needed. which are tantalisingly close to the exchange, should get better broadband provision. Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman Has the Minister considered whether the legislation mentioned quality. Does he agree that although we talk on the unbundling of the local loop needs revisiting? about roll-out and the percentage of coverage, we do Should we not say that if BT cannot provide a service not talk much about capacity? Of course it is important from exchange to cabinet and cabinet to home, we to talk about rural areas. However, in every constituency should open it up to competition and allow other across the country, even in much more urban areas, providers to do it? I do not think my constituents care there are people who technically have coverage, but the who provides the line; they just want access. Is there a quality and limited capacity of the access mean that it case for considering whether other providers could do cannot be used commercially. I hope that the 4G spectrum that faster and more effectively? That is not to criticise will deliver that increased capacity, but it remains to be BT, because I know it is doing its level best, but the seen whether it will. current situation is hampering the UK economy and having an impact on people’s quality of life. Andrew Griffiths: I absolutely agree. There are examples Once again, I congratulate the Backbench Business in my constituency, particularly in outlying villages, Committee and my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith where one person gets a decent broadband service and and The Border on bringing forward such an important their next-door neighbour gets sporadic access, if any. debate. 573 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 574 Coverage Coverage 4.9 pm can deliver superfast broadband to Garsdale and Dent. They show a vision that UK plc—I am not aiming Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I criticism in any specific direction—has so far not matched. start by paying tribute to my neighbours and friends in This debate is about demonstrating that the House of Cumbria and other Members for excellent speeches. Commons stands behind them in solidarity. This is a tremendously important debate, and I will restrict my comments mostly to the third part of the We must show ambition. The ambition that saw the motion, which refers to target broadband speeds. My development of the railways, canals and so on is lacking neighbour, the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness so far in that critical aspect of our infrastructure needs. (John Woodcock), talked about the impact on business, The target of 2 megabits per second, as I am sure most but I wish to mention the impact of broadband coverage— hon. Members know, is staggeringly unambitious. or, in the case of south Cumbria, the lack of adequate Next year, Norway will roll out to 98% of its inhabitants broadband coverage—on social equality and social justice. 100 megabits per second, and the EU digital agenda is for 30 megabits per second by 2020. I admit that Singapore Let us look at the wider picture. The biggest issue is not entirely rural—[Interruption.] It has bits of rain facing folks in the Lake district and the dales, and in the forest—I checked on Google Maps and once upon a areas that are so beautiful that they are not in either time spent six weeks there. Singapore has access to national park in south Cumbria, is the mismatch between 1 gigabit per second, for pity’s sake, which is what we average incomes and average house prices. The average are competing with. The reality is that we are behind. house price in my patch is more than £250,000, but the That will matter. average income is significantly less than £20,000. One in When I studied at university in the constituency of three young people leaves our area and never comes the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central back. (Chi Onwurah) in 1990—I would barely touch a word My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew processor at that time, never mind anything else—I read Griffiths) spoke about the loss of businesses from his an article about mobile phone usage. People were asked, area because of the lack of broadband coverage. Many “Can you see yourself needing a mobile phone in the people who employ four or five members of staff will next 10 years, or would you want one?” but only one in shift their business out of the south lakes because of a five answered yes. My hon. Friend the Member for lack of business space, but they also move away because Burton was asked how many of his constituents want of the lack of access to decent broadband coverage. access immediately. I am sure that many do, but I am Superfast broadband is a way of equalising opportunities also sure that many of his constituents, like many of in rural areas, where wealth and poverty are cheek by mine, do not realise that they want it, or that they jowl. Why would people not live in a staggeringly beautiful should want it. place such as the Lake district or south Cumbria if they There is a need for evangelism to sell the need for could afford to do so and if they could make a living access to superfast broadband. We will need something there? People move into our area to retire—they are like 100 megabits per second, and we will need it soon. extremely welcome if they have the wherewithal to do For example, those places in Cumbria that are most so. Others buy second homes and visit occasionally, remote from hospitals and the most likely to benefit which is okay. However, many are effectively displaced, from telemedicine are the least likely to have the chance because they cannot earn a living there. Adequate—or, to access that technology. World leaders such as Gilkes I hope, more than adequate—access to superfast broadband in Kendal, which is providing hydroturbines in south, would give people the opportunity to set up or work for central and north America, need to be able to upload businesses and to make a decent living. incredibly complex graphic designs. Kendal now has 20 megabits per second and that is wonderful, but even that will not be enough for very long. Rural farmers Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): The same problem exists in need to be able to complete their Rural Payments Somerset, and it affects not only those who are seeking Agency forms. The £2 billion Cumbrian tourism industry to retire but those who are seeking jobs. In my area, needs to be able to punch above its weight as it fights jobcentres are few and far between, and people seeking the city break market. To do that it needs more than the jobs must be online to apply for jobs that are advertised 2 megabits per second that we are talking about today. in jobcentres, so their opportunities are incredibly limited when they cannot get broadband. I am proud to be part of the campaign across Cumbria with the county council and BDUK—Broadband Delivery UK—to roll out the broadband pilot in South Lakelands. Tim Farron: My hon. Friend makes an excellent I am also proud of the broadband pioneers and the hub point. The need for such communications is greater for co-ordinators we have in the area. I welcome what is people in rural areas than for people in urban areas. happening in Cumbria, but I am frustrated by the speed The current situation in my constituency is that many of the project and the speed of the target. I am concerned areas have access to pathetically slow broadband speeds. that the infrastructure as it is built across Britain must I pay tribute to Colin Barr and the team from Colton be future-proof, but it is not even now-proof. We have parish council, whose study showed that 45% of people to build a network that is in the interests of our communities in the High Furness local area could access no more and businesses, and—dare I say?—not in the interests than 0.5 megabits per second. Our communities and of one or two large telecommunications companies. their MPs will not tolerate that. That is why I am so That is the great fear I have about our county project. proud that our communities in Cumbria, and South We have heard that fear about Lancashire and I suspect Lakeland especially, are choosing to make their own that it is shared across the country. luck. I pay tribute to the folks in Colton, Hutton Roof, We need to state that copper is not the answer and Grasmere, Beetham, Kirkby Lonsdale and Upper Kent, that fibre to the cabinet is not a future-proof answer. It and to the team from Fibre GarDen who ensure that we might suit certain companies, but it is not future-proof 575 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 576 Coverage Coverage and fibre to the home and business is the answer. Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I Mobile and satellite solutions also play a huge role, and agree entirely that superfast broadband would be I endorse everything that my hon. Friend the Member enormously beneficial to our economy. Does my hon. for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) said about Friend agree that the £20 billion that we might be mobile networks. Costs should not be higher for users spending on high-speed rail will do less to improve the in rural areas than they are for users in cities, and that is north-south divide than would superfast broadband, another important issue. which would benefit all parts of our economy? Andrew Fleck, the chairman of Fibre GarDen—the team trying to bring fibre-optic, superfast broadband Andrew Jones: That is tempting but difficult territory. to Garsdale and Dentdale, said in his e-mail to me a I will resist the temptation because I have long campaigned couple of days ago: vigorously for better rail connections for my constituency, “The cost of nationwide implementation is prohibitive in the particularly for better trains to Leeds and York and current economic climate, but the economic penalty for delay will direct services to and from London. By the way—a be greater still.” small plug—the first direct service to Harrogate from He is absolutely right. Tonight I will get on the train to London starts on Monday. Oxenholme and travel on a rail network that was built by visionaries 150 years ago. That is the sort of vision Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What time? and ambition that we need today. Andrew Jones: About half-past 5, I think my hon. Chi Onwurah: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on Friend will find. I hope to be there to see it off, like the setting out in such visionary terms the superfast future Fat Controller, and then dash back to comply with the that we all hope to have, but it is worth noting that the whipping arrangements later that evening. I think that vast majority of the companies that built the railways high-speed rail is a good idea for certain parts of the went bankrupt and it was public subsidy that enabled country, so I am upfront about supporting it. My only the uneconomic areas to be reached. complaint is that delivery is so slow that I will be well over 70 by the time it reaches Yorkshire—thank goodness Tim Farron: The hon. Lady makes a correct observation, that feels a little way off! and I would make one in return—and it is not meant as I was making the point about businesses in my a dig at my hon. Friends from another party. Let us constituency requiring a better internet platform. Many reflect on how Norway is able to have 98% access to of our small and medium-sized enterprises, often in the 100 megabits per second next year: it is because it still agricultural and tourism sectors, are being held back. owns its telecommunications company and it can make They need a good internet presence to reach out to it so. their customers and win business. However, the lack of broadband is not purely a commercial matter. It has Several hon. Members rose— held back access to education, as was expressed so eloquently earlier. It also holds back the provision of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Many public services. I saw that first hand as a member of hon. Members still wish to speak, so I am reducing the Harrogate borough council while seeking to improve time limit to eight minutes. If hon. Members could tend services across a wide but poorly connected area. I do more towards six minutes, everybody will get a chance. not want the people of north Yorkshire to be unable to take advantage of developments in health care. I have seen and discussed with health care professionals from 4.19 pm Airedale NHS Foundation Trust how its telemedicine Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): work can help people in remote communities, particularly I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith those with long-term conditions. and The Border (Rory Stewart) on securing this debate Then there are the straight social and community this afternoon and on his passionate and eloquent benefits. Communities that can communicate are stronger. speech. I strongly support this motion. Mobile phone It is easy to do the diagnosis, but harder to tackle the connection and access to the internet at a decent, workable issue. I have to say to the Minister, however, that I think speed are things that much of urban Britain can take the Government get that and understand rural communities. for granted, but those vital connections are often absent I was pleased to see the high level of investment that the entirely in rural Britain. Government have found for this area, despite these I will focus on one part of the motion, which is the being very difficult financial times. We have worked impact that poor access to the internet and lack of hard in north Yorkshire to be one of the pilot areas for broadband have on local communities. In parts of north the roll-out of superfast broadband, and I pay particular Yorkshire and my constituency, broadband coverage tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and is desperate. North Yorkshire has among the poorest Ripon (Julian Smith), who is here today. As a team of provision in the country, with 30% of the county being north Yorkshire MPs, we have worked to put the case classed as a low-speed area. The impact of this weakness for our area’s inclusion in the Government pilots, which is seen in many ways. For one, it holds back our local we secured—I am grateful to the Minister for that. economy and has a detrimental impact on jobs and Although we work as a Yorkshire team in many areas, growth. For example, one of the biggest employers in teams need leaders and on this particular issue my hon. my constituency is a company that forms part of a large Friend has done a great job of leading the way. international group, but it cannot operate its group’s The progress that we are making in north Yorkshire is international systems simply because the internet platform very encouraging. Many groups have been working is so poor. together, including the county council, the district council, 577 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 578 Coverage Coverage [Andrew Jones] Those are just a few of the constituents who have e-mailed me or contacted me via Facebook or Twitter in the voluntary sector, local communities and business advance of this debate—people who are becoming groups. This issue has been identified by the new York increasingly frustrated by the inadequate broadband and North Yorkshire local enterprise partnership as coverage in Pendle. Unless rural broadband improves, one of its priorities. We also have a good local delivery people will no longer be able to move into those villages vehicle in NYnet. The provision of excellent broadband or other rural areas, killing our local economies and services is critical to our country, but especially critical leaving those still living in those communities with in rural areas of long distances and low-population restricted access to jobs, information and public services. densities, where we have seen the danger of communities It is about time that our rural areas enjoyed the same falling behind. The Government have responded positively access to broadband that so many businesses and individuals to this challenge, and in north Yorkshire we are taking in our larger cities have been used to for so long, up the challenge from them to make our pilot as successful particularly given the importance of fast, reliable broadband as possible. I am happy to support this motion. in creating small and medium-sized enterprises and driving employment growth. 4.24 pm Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate my Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): The important hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border motion before us refers to rural broadband, but does (Rory Stewart) on securing this important debate. Much my hon. Friend agree that it is also remarkable how of what I was going to say has already been covered by many small areas on the edges of cities are affected? For previous speakers. However, I would like to cite a few example, Quedgeley in my constituency is served by the examples from Pendle of the urgent need for better Hardwicke exchange in Stroud, which is a rural area, broadband access in our rural areas. with 100 businesses there affected by slow broadband. Earlier this year I was contacted by Robin Yerkess Does he agree that the Minister should also consider from Fence, whose broadband speed was only 0.3 megabits. that aspect of this important motion put forward by my After BT was contacted and an engineer sent out to see hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border my constituent, that increased to 1.4 megabits, which is (Rory Stewart)? an improvement, but can hardly be described as good. Neil Hodgson, a resident from Blacko, tells me that Andrew Stephenson: My hon. Friend makes a valid broadband speeds in the area are only 0.5 megabits, point. What is surprising about his constituency and while Ian Smith, another Blacko resident, says the mine is that many of the properties that suffer from same, although his broadband speed recently peaked at slow speeds are short distances from the exchanges that 2 megabits following some work on the exchange. As serve them. However, the technology used is so old, many hon. Members have said, broadband for such archaic and lacking in investment that such problems constituents is not a luxury; it is absolutely essential. continue year in, year out. Mr Smith works from home for a company based overseas. Without extending broadband coverage to I applaud what the Government have announced so our rural areas, it would simply not be possible to far, particularly the initiative announced last October, perform jobs such as his. which earmarked four rural areas—unfortunately not including Lancashire—for a pilot scheme for the next In Higham, Arthur Stuttard says that the maximum generation of high-speed broadband, in addition to speed at his property is 1.2 megabits and constantly setting aside £50 million for investment in the second dropping. The connection was once down for six weeks wave of internet test projects. But the £830 million that because of corroded lines. The same is reported by the Government have pledged to create the best broadband Bernard Ingham—[Laughter]—indeed—the chairman network in Europe by 2015 will be spent in vain unless of Higham parish council, who says that he typically those living in more remote areas— gets just 1.25 megabits to 1.75 megabits. I have had similar reports from many Pendleside villages. Brian Nelson from Roughlee tells me that he has never achieved Ian Lucas: On a point of information, I think that the more than 1 megabit, while Bill Mayor from Goldshaw hon. Gentleman will find that the figure is £530 million. Booth says that Newchurch may be unique in the whole The Minister will correct me if I am wrong. country for suffering poor connection “when it rains”. Broadband coverage in the centre of Colne, where I Andrew Stephenson: I am happy to agree with the live, is relatively good. However, as soon as one gets hon. Gentleman on that figure. My key point is that away from the town centre, things deteriorate rapidly. that money will have been spent in vain unless it benefits Raymond Rushton from Trawden told me that his those in rural areas as well as those in urban areas broadband speed varies from 0.58 megabits on some across the country. days to 2.8 megabits on others. Kris Stevens from Laneshaw Owing to the rural, coastal and sparsely populated Bridge has said that speeds of up to 3.7 megabits can be nature of Lancashire, there is a real fear that our county achieved between 10 pm and 3 pm, but during peak could be left behind. A pan-Lancashire proposal endorsed hours that is reduced to 0.7 megabits, making packages by the local enterprise partnership has been drawn up. such as Sky Player completely unusable. I share the It is supported by Blackburn with Darwen borough same fate as my hon. Friend the Member for Burton council, Blackpool council and Lancashire county council. (Andrew Griffiths). Unfortunately, none of my constituents It estimates that, under current proposals, only 66% of has complained that they have not been able to get BBC premises will have superfast broadband by 2015, leaving Parliament streamed live quickly enough, although I 34% without. Needless to say, the 34% will predominantly am sure that many of them are paying close attention to be in the kind of rural communities that hon. Members what goes on in this place. have been describing today. 579 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 580 Coverage Coverage The pan-Lancashire proposal seeks to address that That is why I shall now move on to deal with satellite shortfall, and the outline proposal for £15 million of broadband. This may seem remarkable, but it is possible funding from the European regional development fund, to get a decent broadband service throughout the country which my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and via satellite. Every constituent that Members represent Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) mentioned earlier, has can secure broadband access at a minimum of 2 megabits now been submitted. Lancashire has also submitted a a second via satellite. I am told that speeds can reach funding proposal for £13 million from the £530 million upwards of 10 or 12 megabits; there is a significant cost, that the Government are investing through Broadband but it is possible. That seems to me to be an ideal Delivery UK. I commend that proposal to the Minister solution. It is arguably cheaper and quicker, and it is and urge him to do even more to connect our rural undeniably greener because it uses less energy to provide communities. As many of my constituents in rural the service for sending around the data. It is from the communities whose broadband speed is currently less same sort of satellite, I might add, that the information than 1 megabit have said, the adverts for services offering for our BlackBerrys and mobile phones comes. It also 100 megabit broadband are simply a bad joke. relies on the space industry.

4.31 pm Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Would my hon. Friend acknowledge that satellite broadband is not Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con): In the spirit of the as reliable as mobile broadband or fixed-line links? motion, I will be as superfast as possible. First, I must draw Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Interests. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Dr Lee: I accept that, although there has been an Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) on improvement, as I know from having had the privilege securing this debate. I want to talk about the local of seeing one of the new Ka-band satellites launched position, concentrating on rural need and on superfast before Christmas. There is room for improvement in the broadband need in particular. I then want to talk about efficiency and effectiveness of satellites, but the space the potential for satellite broadband to provide a solution industry has plenty of experience and evidence of those for those remote homes and businesses that many hon. developments. By the end of this Parliament, about Members represent. 300,000 links will be possible for broadband via satellite. That is quite a few, and I am sure that it covers quite a To be honest, I wonder what I am doing here today. I few of the homes and businesses that my hon. Friends represent Bracknell, which is part of the Thames valley, represent. Broadband Delivery UK estimates that about where 10% of the world’s information technology businesses 2 million businesses and homes do not have good are based. It is part of the golden triangle of Newbury, enough broadband. I am one of them and so are many Reading and Bracknell. We have Oracle, Microsoft, people living in the west of my constituency and elsewhere. Hewlett Packard, Dell and Fujitsu Siemens. We have so many IT companies that I do not have time to list them My final point about the space industry is that it is all. And yet, until very recently, part of my constituency successful—a £7.5 billion industry annually, employing only six or seven miles away still had dial-up internet. I more than 80,000 people. The companies that provide wonder why that is. the broadband service do so not only here, but sell their There are many Members here today, and I imagine services abroad. They sell these services, some of them that their mailbags are as full of complaints about this to 50 or 60 countries abroad, bringing income into this as mine is. A village in the west of my constituency, country. In the process of providing a broadband service Finchampstead, is packed with people who work in the that we all know is needed for this country, we will also IT sector. I knock on their doors and ask for their be able to export, which is fantastic in itself. support, and they say, “Yes, fair enough, but how come As my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The I cannot get fast broadband? I work for an IT company, Border said, this is a no-brainer. There will be a combination yet I come home and I cannot get a decent internet of solutions to provide broadband for everybody. It will link.” I have absolutely no answer for them. I have include wireless and mobile, and fibre optic, but I heard Opposition Members suggesting that we could suggest that for the difficult-to-reach places, space provides not predict what was going to happen. Well, yes we the solution. We are fantastic at space. We are already could, and some of us did. The direction of travel was providing solutions for broadband in that way, so let us pretty obvious, not only for the internet but for mobile provide some more. phone usage. We can argue that the capacity we need Ultimately, infrastructure matters. Reference has been was not predicted, but we all knew that it was going to made to the visionaries of the Victorian age who brought grow. us trains. However, one mistake was made during that I have been convening meetings, and BT has kindly period. If my British social and economic history serves come in to see me. I am sure that all hon. Members have me well, we decided to go with Stephenson’s gauge for received BT’s briefing today on its fibre optic outlay. It rail, instead of Brunel’s. Unfortunately, my hon. Friend assured me that it is going to hit various target dates for the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea its fibre optic plans, but those dates have now been Leadsom) has now left the Chamber, but an analogy pushed back. My constituency is in Berkshire, not in can be drawn here: Brunel had a wider gauge, so we some gloriously remote part of the countryside in Cumbria could have gone faster with our trains. We are now or the Yorkshire dales. I am in Berkshire, and I do not struggling to provide even faster trains; if we had gone have a decent internet service. Indeed, in my own home with Brunel, we would have had them. I suggest that we in a semi-rural area in Berkshire, I cannot really get the adopt exactly the same approach to broadband. Let us internet—it is utterly pointless. I have inquired about not have a narrow vision, but a broad one. Let us have a the problem and tried to work out the solution, as I am system that provides the very best broadband for all our not convinced that fibre optic will be there for people. constituents. 581 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 582 Coverage Coverage Several hon. Members rose— Andrew Bingham: I could not agree more. Small businesses are my bag. I would describe them as the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): If everybody engine room of the country. New businesses can be set sticks to about five minutes, everybody should be able up anywhere now because the STD code does not to contribute to the debate. matter any more, but we are hampering them by the lack of internet connection and the slow, unreliable 4.39 pm broadband. My constituency contains a huge number of quarries. When limestone cannot be dug in Miles Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I congratulate Platting, it has to be dug in Derbyshire, in High Peak. my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border The quarrying companies are struggling because of the (Rory Stewart) on securing this debate, which elicits internet connection, but they cannot move. We need to considerable interest. I shall speak mainly about rural help those businesses, which employ a great many people. needs. My constituency is more rural than most, with the possible exception of those in Cumbria. My residents Some local companies might wish to adopt a more include people such as Andrew Byford who lives over internet-based marketing strategy, but the lack of connection the Snake pass—those who have been through High restricts them from selling online. That is another reason Peak will know the area—and whose internet connection for them to move to urban areas. If businesses move to is so poor that it is not worth having. He shares that urban areas, will the people who live locally move? They problem with many hill farmers in High Peak. Mention are more likely to commute, which will increase travel has already been made of the number of forms that on the roads and rails and hence increase carbon emissions. farmers must fill in, and they have to fill them in online. The knock-on effects will go on and on. Hill farmers are having a tough time at the moment, and that is making it tougher. We could argue another Duncan Hames: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman time about the number of forms that they are having to has mentioned the reduction in carbon reductions that fill in, but the point I am making now is that they are results from a decent internet infrastructure. Earlier in trying to do it using internet connections that are completely the week, he may have heard transport Ministers say in unworkable. They are having to drive dozens of miles to the House that one of the few reasons we are able to find a connection that will enable them to fill in their forms. cope with the present capacity constraints on our transport I know from my experience many years ago, when we infrastructure is the fact that more people work from set up our business, that locating a business is governed home, thus reducing their dependence on travel. The by various criteria. Thirty years ago, one of them was internet enables them to do their work at home rather the STD code. I risk being intervened on at this point, than incurring huge amounts of time, cost and indeed but I used to have a very good knowledge of STD codes pollution by travelling. throughout the country, because I knew where companies were. The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Andrew Bingham: That is true. Good internet connections Woodcock) has left the Chamber, but I happen to know increase the ability to work from home, thus reducing that the code for that area is 01229. [HON.MEMBERS: travel requirements and carbon emissions. “Trainspotter!”] I am, yes. Access to public services is increasingly online, which People setting up businesses took STD codes into also disadvantages rural residents. When I send out my account because they knew that their customers would electronic MP’s e-mail shot, I have to upload low-resolution look at the code and say, “I know where that is: it is pictures because I know that it will take local people a local.” Now, however, one of the most important factors long time to download a high-resolution picture. I do for such people—and, for many of those running new-style not want the people of High Peak to wait for a long businesses, the most important—is the speed of their time to see a full picture of me. internet connections. If the connection in an area is not good, they will not locate their businesses there. As a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, result, new businesses will be set up in urban rather than Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It will rural locations, which will widen the urban-rural divide. look better in low resolution. It is harder for the existing rural businesses to compete when they are competing against urban businesses with Andrew Bingham: That might be true, but I prefer to faster internet connections. That is not only discouraging give people the option of seeing it in high resolution. those starting new businesses from entering rural areas but is making it harder for those who are already in Research has also been done on the education of our such areas to survive, and making it more likely that children. The GCSE exam results of children who are they will move out. We all have our difficulties in rural digitally included—I think that is the phrase that is towns and villages, such as the closing of shops, and if used—are 25% better than the results of those who are people move out, that rolls on. It is the law of unintended not. The people in the remote villages of High Peak and consequences. similar rural areas do not have that advantage, so that is a further disadvantage they face. I cannot over-emphasise Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I do not the importance of this subject to the future of the know whether the hon. Gentleman experiences the same country, our children and our businesses. as I do in Northumberland, where one of the best I welcome the Government’s stated intention and the sources of growth for rural areas is the setting up of money they are putting into this endeavour, and I refer small businesses in relatively remote locations, but where the Minister to the letter I wrote to him on 25 March those who set up businesses in the hope of being able to regarding Derbyshire county council’s bid for the next use the internet are now being out-competed by people wave of funding for digital roll-out. I hope he will with faster internet services. acknowledge that, and I also hope the bid is successful. 583 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 584 Coverage Coverage He has momentarily moved from his place. [Interruption.] deals online. Apparently, people lose out by £500 of Yes, I am sure he is right behind me, in every sense of £600 a year if they cannot get online to take advantage that term. of the internet shopping bargains. Previously when people set up businesses, they had to For all the Government have done for us on this issue, install things called utilities: gas, electricity and water. communities and villages must play their parts. As In the 21st century, there are four utilities, because, in many Members have said, communities throughout my view, broadband is the fourth utility as it is vital that England are coming together, and in Skipton and Ripon businesses have it. That is why we need to roll it out to we have seen some great examples. In Darley, a beautiful rural areas such as High Peak and Cumbria, in order to village in Nidderdale, many people have come together give our communities a chance to survive in what is a and shown that there is demand, showing those who difficult world and to help people remain in their villages hope to invest in our procurement process that there is and to build and sustain their communities emotionally, money to be made—Sue Welch and David Holland socially and economically. deserve mention. Across the Pennines, in Appletreewick, Adrian Precious did something similar. They got their Several hon. Members rose— communities together and showed that if we link the communities, that presents a real proposition for the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. To private sector. enable as many Members as possible to contribute, I The £500 million fund and the Government’s universal am now reducing the time limit to five minutes. broadband commitment are grabbing the attention of my constituents and of North Yorkshire. Although I 4.46 pm am very positive about the work the Government have Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): I congratulate done, there is a slight question mark over mobile provision. my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border The forthcoming auction of the 800 MHz spectrum is (Rory Stewart) on securing the debate. We represent equally key for our rural communities and if we consider two of the largest constituencies in England. Mine the poor auction process for 3G and what happened covers 900 square miles, and his is about twice as large, I then, we can see that there is a tremendous amount to think. As many Members have said, my hon. Friend is learn. leading the way on this issue, and I would also like I have a number of questions for the Minister, but I briefly to pay tribute to his office staff—to Louis Mosley have only 10 seconds left. Will he consider some different and the other members of the team—who are assisting ways of taxing— him in leading the way. Like my hon. Friend’s constituency, my constituency Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I call has become the test bed for one of the superfast broadband Mr David Nuttall. pilots, which is fantastic news. The procurement process began last week, and we hope that many major 4.51 pm telecommunications companies will come forward and start bidding so that we can deliver on this project over Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Saved by the the next couple of years. The aim is to address the bell there, Minister. major issue for north Yorkshire, which is the need to People could be forgiven for thinking that a constituency sort out, once and for all, the digital gap that is damaging such as mine in Bury North, which ostensibly lies businesses and communities throughout our county. within the Greater Manchester conurbation, would not As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and be affected in any way by the problems that are the Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) mentioned, 30% of the subject of the debate. When people think of Manchester, county is classed as having low-speed broadband, which they inevitably think of the vibrant city centre or perhaps is having a massive effect on individuals, businesses and of the two football teams that were so much in the communities. media and the spotlight at the weekend. Greater Copying my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Manchester, however, is much more than just a city. It is The Border, my Yorkshire colleagues and I recently held made up of 10 local authority areas, of which Bury is a conference. Talking of copying, I advise anyone who one, and Bury North lies on the very northern edge of is interested in this issue to copy all my hon. Friend’s the Greater Manchester conurbation. It is in reality in initiatives, as he has done some great stuff. We copied parts much more rural Lancashire than the city of his conference idea in north Yorkshire, and hundreds of Manchester and I want briefly to highlight the effect of people from all walks of life came along and talked that dichotomy this afternoon. about the problems they are facing. In addition to the principal town of Bury, there are The biggest problem is an economic one. Unless we several rural villages in the constituency. Although I address that through market intervention, there will be readily accept that they are not quite as far from an a downward economic spiral in rural areas, because urban centre as some of the villages in, let us say, the businesses will begin to move out and there will be no constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith incentive for them to move back in again. The north and The Border (Rory Stewart), whom I warmly Yorkshire pilot cannot come early enough, therefore. congratulate on securing this timely debate, when it The issue is not just to do with businesses, however. comes to the problem of having a workable broadband As we have heard, there is general frustration in all connection they might as well be. It is a case of so near, walks of life: there is huge frustration about housing yet so far. becoming less marketable because of “not spots” and I am greatly indebted to the Bury rural inequalities low speeds, and about whole communities of people, forum for its work in providing me with concrete examples and their schools and other organisations, getting fewer of the problems that face individuals and businesses in 585 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 586 Coverage Coverage [Mr David Nuttall] I want to associate myself with a point that has been made by many hon. Members this afternoon—the sense those small rural villages. For example, in Nangreaves, of frustration felt by constituents who hear debate in the broadband speed is, on average, 500 kilobits per England and other parts of the UK about superfast second, which is typical, provided by a BT line some broadband when they lack any access whatever. I think 5 miles from an exchange. The same applies to all the of the farmer with a haulage company in the village of villages, such as Holcombe and Hawkshaw. Trefenter on the edge of the Cambrian mountains who Let me give one example in particular. Affetside is a was desperate to expand his business but had to rely on small village with fewer than 250 residents located on incredibly slow dial-up. We were able to involve a satellite the edge of the west Pennine moors. It lies on the old company and ensure that a pilot satellite scheme helped Roman road that ran north between Manchester and him out in order to nurture and grow his business. As Ribchester. The village has only one telephone infrastructure has been pointed out many times in this debate, this is provider, British Telecom, and because of its relatively about economic growth and building a vibrant—Welsh, isolated nature no other telephone service providers in our case—economy. That is why this debate is so have sought to provide any coverage in the area. The important. lack of competition unsurprisingly results in higher This is also about bridging gaps between people. In costs than would be expected elsewhere. I am informed the last Parliament, when the Select Committee on that the existing aluminium cable is believed to have Welsh Affairs, of which I was and am a member, looked been installed 40 years ago, in the 1970s, when high at broadband, we also looked at the social and age copper prices forced the switch to aluminium. Whatever divides between people. When a rural bank closes, those the cable, current broadband speeds are typically in the who are elderly and who are not switched on or who do region of just 0.7 to 1 megabit per second, but speeds not have the motivation to access broadband will be vary greatly and reliability is a major problem. I should severely disadvantaged in a way that, perhaps, younger add that rather than improving, the problem is getting people in urban areas have not been, but we lack the worse as more and more people are forced to do business basic infrastructure to bridge that gap. online and access services online. The demand on that The National Farmers Union of Wales, NFU Cymru, decades-old cable is increasing and the quality of people’s has talked about the importance of broadband to farming internet connections is gradually reducing. businesses—a point that the hon. Member for High The Government’s commitment to providing everyone Peak (Andrew Bingham) has made. It is important for with broadband access at a speed of 2 megabits per supporting business-to-customer, business-to-business second by the end of this Parliament is to be welcomed, and business-to-government communications, as well but it is only a start and will not solve the problem. By as for providing farmers with opportunities to market 2015, the rest of the world will have moved on and the their products. There are also the added expectations digital divide that exists between town and country will from the previous Government, and in some cases the continue. The answer is not to solve today’s problem current Government, for business to be conducted online. tomorrow with today’s solution, but to look to the The Government’s announcement in 2010 of the future and ensure that when lines are upgraded they are compulsory electronic completion of VAT returns for fully future-proofed. Otherwise, I fear that by the time farm businesses with a turnover of more than £100,000 anything actually happens to help my constituents, it was greeted with great anger in parts of rural Britain will be too late and they will continue to be stuck in the because that objective is simply impossible to achieve. slow lane of broadband internet access. Now there is the roll-out of online completion of single application forms by 2016. That cannot be realised until 4.56 pm these targets on broadband coverage are met. Mobile reception is another critical issue in my Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a privilege constituency. I cannot travel from Aberystwyth in the to speak in this afternoon’s debate, but I arrived with a north of Ceredigion to Cardigan in the south and have tinge of anxiety as I suddenly realised that I had not a phone call at the same time—it would be a lengthy signed the motion tabled by the hon. Member for call, as it is a 40-mile route on a bad road—because it is Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). I think the impossible to have a conversation without numerous point has been illustrated that many outside the Chamber stops and starts. That is something that we in rural are totally in agreement with what he is trying to areas have to put up with, while people elsewhere take achieve this afternoon, particularly in relation to the mobile reception for granted. My constituents cannot auction. ring their MP on his mobile phone and expect an In Ceredigion, we have 600 family farms, 147 villages answer if he is in his house—I can receive a phone call and hamlets and one of the highest proportions of on my mobile only if I am standing in the middle of the small businesses per head of population anywhere in road outside my house. Those are the frustrations that the United Kingdom. This sounds a little like a maiden many people experience. speech and I have said these things before but the There has been good progress in Wales. There were principles of entitlement are the same for those communities good attempts by the Welsh Assembly Government, as they are for communities anywhere else. In Ceredigion who were of a different political party, to identify pilot 20 years ago the debate was about retaining a railway schemes. Two communities in Ceredigion—Cilcennin line from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth, but today the and Beulah—have benefited from such a pilot scheme. issue is about broadband, mobile coverage and people’s Although I am frustrated that Wales is not included in entitlement. We are past the point at which people in the pilots that the Government have announced for rural communities will stoically make do and now need superfast broadband, I take comfort from the fact that to make arrangements to have access to broadband; some of the areas identified for the pilots, such as there is an entitlement to have that in those communities. Herefordshire and the highlands and islands, are rural, 587 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 588 Coverage Coverage which I hope will allow Wales to learn from the experiences. that the Minister and the Government are making For me, this debate is simply about entitlement. It is a available to try to close the “not spots” is welcome, but costly debate about entitlement, but it is an entitlement we need to recognise that there will be limits on what that we must not forget. that £530 million can achieve. Bearing in mind the tight financial climate, I have no doubt that there were tough 5.1 pm negotiations with the Treasury to secure that money in order to try to deliver a universal service obligation by Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): It is a 2015. I have no doubt also that the Treasury will have pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ceredigion one eye—if not one eye and one hand—on the 2012 (Mr Williams). I want to pay particular tribute to my auction, so we need to support the Minister to ensure hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border that in his discussions with the Treasury his hand is as (Rory Stewart) for the work he has done in preparing strong as it can be. for the debate and encouraging Members to become fully involved. Many Members have highlighted the I remember debating eight years ago the luxury of problems caused by the lack of broadband in their 256 kilobits, and if anyone had 512 kilobits that was communities. I also think that there is an obligation on absolutely extraordinary.The universal service of 2 megabits us to offer some solutions and encourage the Minister is welcome, but let us not forget that this is a fast-moving in his negotiations with the Treasury. I will move on to dynamic. that later and how we can come up with some answers to the problems. 5.6 pm I am very pleased that broadband has been considered Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) in the debate both as mobile broadband and as fixed-line (Con): I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member broadband, because a short time ago fixed-line was the for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), but I want only way we considered it when discussing it. Ofcom to go a little further and talk about the Government’s recently reported that there had been a 2,200% increase moral and social obligations, aside from their economic in mobile data traffic in 2009, and I suspect that there ones, in this context. has been a significant increase since then, with new I hesitate to mention the big society so early in my technology being used both commercially and as a speech, but it was invented in rural Britain, and rural result of lifestyle changes. Britain is finding it increasingly difficult to deliver and There is great variance in the availability across the sustain the big society as it falls behind the rest of the constituencies we have heard about today, particularly country and, indeed, the rest of the world when it in rural areas but also in some urban areas. In my comes to broadband and mobile coverage. constituency, for example, much of Barry has the benefit I want to restrict my comments to mobile phone of superfast broadband, which runs exceptionally well, coverage, as far as we can distinguish it from the rest of but there are pockets within that urban environment the debate. We have heard from a number of people that do not. However, some rural communities, such as how the UK is not where it should be, and from the Colwinston and Ystradowen, have almost no coverage previous two hon. Members how Wales is not where it at all. That is a tragedy for the people living in those could be. It is interesting to hear examples from Norway, communities and for the young people as they grow up. France, the United States and recent ones from Port Stanley Many points have already been made about sustainability, of people’s ability to communicate with one another by prosperity and the fact that home working and flexible mobile phone, because I in my office in Whitland in working are a way of life for many people these days. Carmarthenshire could not communicate with the hon. Many people would like to make them a way of life but Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) just up the road, cannot do so because of the lack of broadband in their were we to wish to speak and were he to seek my advice communities. There is also a social cost that we must on the coalition’s performance, thus denying us both a recognise, as some Members have mentioned. golden opportunity to advance our careers. There is, With regard to mobile broadband, 3G is the method however, a serious social and economic problem. that most of us would use. We need to recognise the We have already been told, quite rightly, about the differences between England and Wales in that respect. effect on small and medium-sized businesses in rural We do not have data for my constituency, but I can offer Britain, but we have not touched on the plight of the data on the differences between England and Wales. For elderly in the more lonely parts of our rural communities; example, there is 79% coverage in Wales for 3G, but on the work of the charities and carers who look after 98% in England. For 2G, there is 89% coverage in the elderly and vulnerable in those areas, in often hostile Wales, but 99% coverage in England. Although people geographic and climatic conditions; or on the plight of might assume that the technology has moved on, 2G is young people in rural areas, who simply want to be still exceptionally important, because last January Ofcom young people in rural areas in a 21st-century context. It decided to lift the restrictions on the use of 3G services is a great source of gloom to me that the babysitting on the 2G network. That decision favours only two community of Lampeter Velfrey has discovered that operators, and I think that the solution to many of there is no mobile phone coverage in the Hart household, these problems must be competition. Unless there is fair the consequence of which is that I do not go out competition for all the operators, we will obviously not anything like as much as I used to because my babysitters get the swift solutions that we would like. I hope that cannot text their friends when they are in my house. If when the Minister responds he will say what he wants to there is a more serious reason for the Minister to do to correct that imbalance. address the matter urgently, I am not sure what it is. Much of the solution to the problem will be the 2012 To be serious for a moment, however, I want to focus auction. The 800 MHz spectrum will be important, on the impact of the problem on the police and, in because it will travel so much further, and the £530 million particular, on Dyfed Powys police and the mobile ID 589 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 590 Coverage Coverage [Simon Hart] very poor. Internationally, we are not starting from a good position. In a study by Oxford university sponsored project known as Lantern, involving the piece of kit by Cisco Systems, published as recently as October they carry around which enables them to take fingerprints 2010, we were ranked 18th in the world in terms of while in remote areas, and which relies on the mobile broadband service, behind countries such as South phone network. In our area, the police were subject to Korea, Japan, Sweden and Denmark. Being 18th may two carriers but that was insufficient, so the system did sound about average or fair to middling, but it should not work as well for our police force as it might have, not disguise the fact that there is a huge chasm between through no fault of their own. They were able to expand what we are achieving at 18th and what the top group of the number of carriers and thus improve the coverage, countries are achieving. The report states that the UK is but unfortunately the Metropolitan police have led a “comfortably enjoying today’s applications” tender process resulting in a UK-wide contract and the but the top 14 are tender being awarded to the company that Dyfed Powys “ready for the online applications of tomorrow.” rejected on the basis that its system did not work in our area. That is the point. The general quality of internet coverage is improving worldwide, and we have a lot of catching We have to be bit careful about a one-size-fits-all up to do, particularly in our rural areas, where, too solution based on so-called supreme technological solutions often, we are disconnected not only in terms of the which do not necessarily apply to the wilder and more digital economy but our physical infrastructure. lonely parts of the country, particularly west Wales. This has an effect on the police’s ability to deliver on its I have several villages in my rural constituency where obligations to the community, which is very relevant people are very concerned about the coverage that they given the challenges that forces are facing, and that in are receiving. Exminster is a village close to Exeter turn leads to a compromised confidence on the part of where the parish council has undertaken extensive surveys the rural community as regards its personal safety and of the kinds of broadband speeds that are being achieved its ability to trust the police to deliver a first-class locally, which are very ineffective. As many Members service, as I know they do. have said, the speeds that are achieved are often significantly I welcome the combination of effort by Ofcom and below the advertised speeds. In one area of Exminster, the Welsh Assembly Government. I think we are now BT advertises a download speed of 7.5 Mbps, but instructed to call them the Welsh Government, but for 25% of residents are achieving less than 2 Mbps. That is the purposes of clarity they will remain the Welsh hardly surprising given that the Commission for Rural Assembly Government, certainly in my house. There is Communities tells us that, as at April 2010, about much to be cheerful about because, as other hon. Members 60% of households in urban areas have cable whereas have said, this is a golden opportunity—perhaps the the figure is as low as just 1.5% in our villages and only golden opportunity—for the Government to show hamlets. According to the Library, 33% of my constituents their commitment to rural communities: not only their have low broadband speeds. That compares to just economic but social and moral commitment. We have 1.8% in Hammersmith in London. heard for many years—and we believe it, I would suggest— We know that the problem is the cost of reaching that this commitment is real. There is no greater opportunity rural consumers. The answer must be to encourage than now for them to cement that commitment and to unrestricted competition, but to recognise the vital prove to rural Britain that they believe it is a force for disconnection between what maximises supplier profits good. and what delivers the optimum social and economic benefits to our communities and the country as a whole. 5.11 pm That is why I strongly welcome the motion. Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): Like all speakers, It is important that the Minister and the Government I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith consider as many innovative ways of delivering internet and The Border (Rory Stewart) on securing this debate, as they can. Virgin Media has looked at using telegraph which is extremely important, particularly for our rural poles to loop cable through. An important village in the communities. Many hon. Members have stressed the west of my constituency, Northlew, has done a sterling massive growth in the importance of the internet. Indeed, job in using microwave WiMax broadband. We need to broadband was introduced in this country as recently as look at the sharing of utilities between utility companies, 1990, and yet we have seen a huge expansion in its such as BT’s ducts and poles. I know that the Department impact on how we interact with each other, how we for Business, Innovation and Skills has been in discussions transact business, and our ability to interface with public with business about that. I would like an update on that services, and it has spawned new markets and changed from the Minister in his winding-up speech. I echo the existing markets beyond recognition. As the hon. Member comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) put it, (Dr Lee) about wireless satellite broadband. We need to it has gone from being peripheral to our day-to-day have a patchwork of solutions, and that can be achieved existence to being absolutely essential. Despite its only by doing things locally. That is why I hope that importance, however, as the hon. Member for Chippenham the local enterprise partnership bid in my area for (Duncan Hames) pointed out, there never has been, £40 million is taken seriously. It will send just the right and still is not, a universal right to any particular level signal that rural communities in my area are not forgotten. of service. By contrast, that is something that we see in the context of our postal service in regard to the universal service obligation. 5.16 pm The hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) Woodcock) defended the previous Government’s record (Con): I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member on rolling out internet coverage. The situation has been for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). 591 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 592 Coverage Coverage Several Members have mentioned an urban-rural government to facilitate what is needed. Hampshire divide. It may surprise people that I want to contribute county council has carried out an enormous survey on this subject given that I come from Romsey and with Ipsos MORI to find out what demand there is for Southampton North. I do not see this as an urban-rural high-speed broadband in the county. Through its bid to divide. Parts of our cities have very slow broadband Broadband Delivery UK, it is seeking to open up the speeds. There is also a rural-rural divide. I was contacted public services network and co-operate with a wide shortly after last year’s general election by a constituent range of internet service providers, to improve the availability who lives in the same village as me. I thought that we and speed of connection across the county dramatically. were enjoying good broadband speeds, only to be informed I know that now is the not the time to provide an that he was suffering from download speeds of less than advertisement to the Minister for the unique selling 2 megabits per second. A couple of weeks later, I visited point of Hampshire’s bid, although some of my colleagues a business in the village and was astonished to hear the have given such advertisements. Suffice it to say that it is familiar binging and bonging of dial-up, which is still very good, and I hope he will look upon it favourably. being used in the 21st century. That was literally four or Its objectives are straightforward. It brings real hope to five miles from the end of the M27 and just outside my constituents who want nothing more radical than to Southampton. be able to do their shopping or banking online from I argue that it is the sheer inconsistency of coverage home or Skype their grandchildren in Australia. In a that causes some of the greatest frustration. Neighbours 21st century Hampshire village, that really did not on different sides of the street get inconsistent coverage. ought to be impossible. Part of the village in which I live gets its connection from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who was here earlier, 5.21 pm but those who get it from the Wellow exchange get a Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I am much faster service. conscious of the time, so I will endeavour to keep my The Prime Minister referred to this matter recently contribution short. and indicated that he regards rural broadband as vital. I do not think Ofcom or the Minister can be in any There are many reasons why it is vital. I would like to doubt about how passionate we all feel about the advent highlight the increase in working from home and of of superfast broadband. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend flexible working. We have heard about the environmental the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), benefits for people who can access decent download as well as to my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton speeds and work comfortably and conveniently from and Ripon (Julian Smith), with whom I work closely on home. There are also educational benefits. I was fortunate this and a number of other projects. They both have to attend the launch of a wonderful new IT suite at energy about a vision that we all share. Wherwell primary school in the very north of my The Government deserve some praise, although they constituency, which had fantastic facilities. However, have taken a bit of a beating today, because they have during the local election campaign a few weeks later, I committed £530 million, a not insignificant figure. I am encountered a child from that school who was laughing pleased to see that it is not just the Government who are at me for trying to use a smartphone in the village, involved, because I understand that the BBC has committed because it was ridiculous that any grown-up could £150 million for four consecutive years. That shows its possibly think that that would ever be possible. conviction that superfast broadband is the future. I am disappointed to learn that Britain is only 26th in I wish to follow on from the comments of my hon. the world for average connection speeds and that our Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride) average speeds are slower than in Romania and Latvia. about the importance of Devon. It is the largest county That is an embarrassment and we must address it in the country by size, and 20% of our community live urgently. As fuel prices have increased, we have all been in very poor rural areas. Rural broadband is therefore contacted by myriad constituents who are concerned critical for us. To compound our problem, we have a about the increase in fuel prices. Many of them want the very weak strategic road and rail infrastructure. The convenience of being able to work from home and want M5 ends at Exeter and our A roads are not great, and to do their shopping from home. It is cheaper for people the concept of having electrified railway lines any time to have Mr Tesco deliver their shopping and pay him a soon is sadly a dream, not a reality. Our fight is to get fiver for the privilege than to drive to the local supermarket. diesel rolling stock. In many rural areas, the local supermarket really is not that convenient. Of course, there is also online banking. Many people in our communities live in an isolated environment, and we have the highest number of people I will briefly draw on my experience of working for a in receipt of the state old-age pension of any region. small charitable organisation in Hampshire. It was not For them, communication and access to any form of in rural Hampshire, but in a town. We were keen to entertainment is extremely difficult without broadband. deliver more online services to our members and donors, Two thirds of our businesses have fewer than five employees and to those who wished to support the work of the and a turnover of less than £250,000, and broadband is charity. One of our biggest frustrations was that when crucial for them. Home working and the ability to we wanted to use our banking services, the connection, communicate with clients and customers are key, and even in a town, was far too slow. It was very difficult for that cannot be done effectively without some form of the website to cope with people’s membership subscriptions. mobile or internet connectivity. As was pointed out I am sure the Minister will be relieved to hear that I earlier, Government compliance, such as VAT returns, do not believe the solution lies solely in the hands of the increasingly has to be carried out online. If we are really Government. We have to call upon every part of the committed to improving the economy in rural areas, industry, upon other organisations and upon local that must be a reason for having broadband. 593 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 594 Coverage Coverage [Anne Marie Morris] London, and completely useless when I am in Somerset, where I cannot access anything because the broadband I am pleased that there are two of us in the Chamber service is so poor. supporting the Heart of the South West local enterprise Where it works, broadband is the most fantastic partnership’s bid for the second wave of pilots. It would thing. One area of my constituency that has a good be nice to think that the weight of numbers might help service is Burnham and Highbridge. Burnham-on-Sea us to persuade the Minister and others that we have a has a website—burnhamonsea.co.uk. Some 7,000 or comprehensive bid that is well supported across Devon 8,000 people live in Burnham, but that website gets and Somerset, and that it will make a huge difference to 15,000 unique visitor hits per day, and 50,000 pages are people living in both counties. downloaded every day. That rate goes up during the The challenge for the Government is to maximise, summer tourist season, which is critical, because 26,000 dare I say it, the bang they get for their buck. We have to people are employed in tourism in Somerset alone. make the best use of our infrastructure to maximise They depend on people coming to Somerset for their choice. Rural infrastructure is expensive. As my hon. holidays and knowing what they can do and what Friend the Member for Central Devon explained, BT facilities they can access. provides access through poles and ducts, and Ofcom I thank the Minister for the trouble he has taken to has said that that must be on fair and reasonable terms. listen to the Somerset and Devon bid, and I hope, as it is As I understand it, what is being offered at the moment bound to do, that it brings success to our counties in is not entirely in accordance with that. Ofcom is going business and every other sense, particularly for residents. to take up the cudgels, and I hope it does so sooner rather than later. Otherwise, implementation will be a 5.28 pm challenge. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. As has also been mentioned, innovative partnerships Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) on with other utility companies are clearly important—we securing this enjoyable debate, and for putting together should not focus only on what BT and other internet a formidable array of talent to present the case for their and telecoms providers can offer. We need to think areas around the UK—we heard a brief intervention more broadly about what we do. Government can assist earlier from a Member from Scotland. The hon. Gentleman with that by simplifying the regulatory regime, particularly has established himself as an assiduous and powerful on planning. advocate of the construction of a viable broadband Earlier, we heard a plea for the Government to consider service because of the nature of his beautiful constituency satellite. I agree, because this debate should be about and other rural constituencies. It was good to hear a not only where we are now, but the future. I suspect that Government Member giving high praise in the Chamber one reason the Government have a target of only 2 megabits to a Mandelson, for which I am sure he is very grateful. per second is that the world moves on. By 2015, we There is, of course, a lot of common ground in this could see a very different number. We need research on debate. We all believe in the importance of a broadband that, and it would be great if the Government provided network. The Countryside Alliance has presented evidence tax support by increasing R and D credits—I am pleased that a broadband network is essential to the viability of with what we are doing on the corporation tax front. a living countryside. Development in communications Finally, I support the concept of increasing the is a massive opportunity for the countryside, provided requirement in the bid of more than 95% coverage for that a viable broadband network is constructed. mobile technology, but could we add a requirement for We all accept that there is a market failure in the rural or landmass coverage, rather than a requirement broadband sphere. Most accept that two thirds of the for population coverage? That would help the rural country will not be adequately provided for by the market community. Good on the Government! Let us see alone and that Government action is needed to remedy broadband fly! We can do it! that market failure. It is important to talk about some 5.21 pm definitions if we are to make progress on the common ground that exists between the political parties. We have Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I should like to make just a to be clear what we are talking about and the terminology few points and to speak for the Somerset half of that that we are using. The first important phrase is “universal Somerset and Devon bid, which would make such a broadband”. By this I mean that all should have access fantastic difference. Many hon. Members have made to broadband services. The previous Labour Government points about farmers, young people and old people, but, had a commitment to introduce universal broadband in my area, many who have retired to Somerset because services, up to a speed of 2 megabits by 2012. it is such a beautiful place can stay in their town centre Until last week, the Government had assiduously homes and, using broadband, can access facilities and avoided using the word “universal”, as far as I could services such as shopping deliveries. detect. Instead, they continued to use the formula that Rural post offices also benefit from broadband. their aim was to introduce the best high-speed broadband Businesses use the internet in my towns, and individuals in Europe by 2015. They avoided defining exactly what use eBay and Amazon to sell and buy goods. In my post that would be. But last week we made some progress, office, there are queues of people who want to send because the Government made it clear—for the first small parcels and envelopes containing things that people time, as far as I am aware—that their target was to have bought, which props up our post office system. provide universal broadband by 2015. That is a three-year I thank the Minister for meeting me on Monday to delay in the costed target introduced by the previous discuss broadband in Somerset. I pointed out to him Labour Government. If hon. Members get complaints that I am running, with the Administration Committee, from constituents with no broadband provision, they an iPad trial. The iPad is fantastic when I am here in should blame the Government. 595 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 596 Coverage Coverage That delay is very bad news, because universal broadband If we are to work together for the benefit of our is hugely important. First, it is important to the private constituents to achieve that target, we must know what sector. Competitive businesses in our modern economy, it means. wherever they are, must have access to the broadband We know that insufficient public money is available network. Without it, they will be at a substantial competitive to achieve the Government’s goals by 2015, so let us disadvantage, and that will be bad news especially for consider the position for private investment. How is businesses in rural areas. that going? Here, I regret to say, there is a problem that was referred to by a couple of Government Members, Duncan Hames: I note the hon. Gentleman’s comments including the hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne about the changed timetable. Will he tell us whether the Marie Morris). On 1 April the Minister received previous Government, as recently as 12 months ago, correspondence—no coincidence perhaps—in which senior were on track to meet that 2012 deadline? executives of leading communications companies, including Fujitsu, Virgin Media, TalkTalk, Geo and Vtesse Networks, Ian Lucas: We were on track to meet that deadline. It wrote that “urgent intervention” was needed to require was costed, and the £200 million that would have been BT to revise the pricing for the use of its infrastructure. used to do that would have been taken from the same The companies also stated that without such intervention money that the current Government are using in connection the Broadband Delivery UK process risked a lack of with their broadband commitment. For the outside vigorous competition, and as a result would fail to world—although not for this Government—a year is a deliver the investment, quality, speed of roll-out, innovation very long time. I am not aware of any questioning by and value for money that the industry was capable of the industry of the commitment made by the Labour delivering, and which taxpayers deserved. That is a Government. The position was deliverable, but this major problem for the necessary private investment. Government have decided to put back that universal The communications network under Labour was broadband target by three years. extremely competitive. For example, in the past three years, competition has seen the cost of mobile broadband Chi Onwurah: Is it not true to say that we have little fall from £50 per gigabyte to less than £10 per gigabyte. or no information on the progress that has been made by this Government towards meeting their unclear and Alun Cairns: If the network was so competitive under undefined target of the best broadband by 2015? the former Administration, why are we ranked only 26th in the world for average broadband speed? Ian Lucas: Absolutely. The Minister is always very polite in his answers to parliamentary questions, but he Ian Lucas: The previous Government made massive is also very good at drafting uninformative replies, advances in the provision of broadband services and something that I worked very hard to achieve when I internet services over a very long period. I am proud of was a Minister. I was not quite as good at it as he is. our record. Had the Government stuck to the same The provision of universal broadband services is also targets, we would have achieved much more progress very important to the public sector. Online services are than has been achieved to date. I now hear from providers, a massive opportunity for government at all levels to and the Minister has been told in correspondence from provide better services more quickly and more efficiently. them that without urgent intervention there will be a However, the Government can move in that direction lack of vigorous competition in the marketplace, so only if they provide those services to everyone across what action is he taking in response to these representations? the country.For example, I understand that the Government I wish to raise one more concern with the Minister. It intend to move to the compulsory online registration of is now clear that responsibility for the delivery of broadband new companies. As the former responsible Minister, I services in particular geographical areas in England is understand the reasons—costs and efficiency—for this to be the responsibility of local authorities, which might decision, but one can justify such a move only if there is create a patchwork of provision across England. Different universal broadband provision across the UK. A company local authorities will attach different priorities to the with no access to the internet cannot be required by the advancement of the network. We heard from the hon. Government to use it. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) If we are to have universal broadband by 2015, what about the issues affecting Lancashire. I was pleased to will it cost? Through parliamentary questions, I have hear that the tendering process in the North Yorkshire established—I did get some information—that the cost pilot area seems to have begun, even though the pilots of providing universal fibre-to-the-premises provision were announced as long ago as last October. There are would be £29 billion, and that more realistically universal particular issues when it comes to the provision of fibre-to-the-cabinet provision would cost £5 billion. We services and tender documents by local authorities. agree that there is a market failure and that the Government What steps will the Minister take to ensure that each have sought to address it by setting aside the £530 million local authority makes the progress needed to achieve by 2015 mentioned several times today. However, we all the targets he has outlined? accept that this is not enough, so we must look to the I was interested to hear that Somerset and Devon are private sector for the necessary investment to bridge working together on their pilot project in the south-west. that investment gap. One of the drivers for that is the superior provision in On definitions, the Government are not just committing Cornwall, which has been assisted by European funding themselves to universal broadband; they are committing that is unavailable in Devon. Hon. Members from Wales themselves to the best high-speed broadband in Europe may be interested to know that the provision of broadband by 2015. It will be helpful if the Minister tells us today in Wales and Scotland has de facto—if not de jure—been what speed he regards as high speed for these purposes. assigned to the Welsh Assembly Government and the 597 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 598 Coverage Coverage [Ian Lucas] we mentioned our commitment to the universal service of 2 megabits by 2015 in our excellent publication Scottish Government respectively. Responsibility for “Britain’s superfast broadband future”, which was delivering services in Wales and Scotland will essentially published in December. Specifically, it was mentioned be dealt with at the Assembly or Scottish Parliament in paragraph 8. level. A patchwork is already developing across the UK. When my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and It is important not to lose sight of the need for a The Border started speaking, it felt like an Oscar acceptance national network. We do not need a lot of small “railways” speech because he had so many people to thank. The running in individual areas without their being linked only people he did not thank were his family, which I together. Although having small, big society projects set was surprised about. I am pleased to see that his own up networks is appealing, there is a danger of the team of officials is watching from the Gallery. I know networks not working effectively together. There are that the whole House thanks them for their hard work. tensions between the small and larger projects. It is It will come as no surprise to learn that one of them is a important that we maintain a competitive network. constituent of mine, which is why she is so talented and I am sorry that I have not been able to deal with the able to undertake this very complicated work. numerous contributions made today. However, I am sure that the Minister has heard the strength of feeling from Government and Opposition Members, and that Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): The Minister mentioned he will use the video in his negotiations with the Treasury, superfast broadband and 2 megabits. What is the because there will come a time when some of the bids relationship between 2 megabits and superfast broadband? being made now will be turned down, and that is when government starts to get difficult. Saying yes is easy; Mr Vaizey: The reference to 2 megabits relates to saying no is always more challenging. the universal commitment. The reference to superfast broadband relates to providing as many as 90% of the 5.43 pm population with superfast broadband by 2015. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Iam Alun Cairns: Will the Minister give way? grateful for the chance to respond to this debate, which was called on behalf of the Backbench Business Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Mr Vaizey: If the hon. Lady will wait for one second, Border (Rory Stewart). He has been showered with I want to use this opportunity—[Laughter.] I want to enough praise in this debate, but let me add to the echo my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The oleaginous tone with which we all approach him. For Border—it is quite clear that most hon. Members one so young and so new to this House, his ability to want to be like him—by thanking my own officials, gauge the issues that concern the House is second to Mark Swarbrick and Simon Towler, who have done an none. His relentless focus on mobile broadband is also astonishing amount of work on this issue. Such is their severely disrupting my life. I have gone up to Penrith dedication that they even took the photographs for the and The Border for a superfast broadband summit that superfast broadband document that we published in even had members of the United States Administration December. attending. This is the second broadband debate that my The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central hon. Friend has called, forcing me—I know that hon. (Chi Onwurah) will be interested to hear that I want to Members will share my disappointment at this—to pay tribute not only to the work of Broadband Delivery decline my invitation to the European Commission’s UK, which was set up by the previous Government Culture Council in Brussels today. and comprises an excellent team of dedicated officials I do not necessarily want to respond to every speech from the private and public sectors, but to the telecoms today; suffice to say that almost 20 Back Benchers regulator, Ofcom. I know that we will be discussing the contributed to this debate, all very effectively, raising auction in a matter of moments. Ofcom is very ably led issues and concerns specific to their constituencies. I by Ed Richards, who also has a fine team. I have thought that the shrewdest of all was my hon. Friend embarrassed the hon. Lady on many occasions, but the the Member for Carmarthen West and South fact that she could say, “I’m from Ofcom” was a stamp Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), who pointed out that the of great quality, and she now brings adornment to the lack of superfast mobile broadband was preventing him House. Anyway, I seem to have persuaded her not to from hiring babysitters. intervene on me. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for On the 25-megabit target, our target of having the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport announced in his best superfast broadband in Europe is of course dependent speech at the national digital conference last week that on a range of measures, including choice, coverage, our ambition was to see superfast broadband coverage speed and take-up. Competition is also very important. of 90% of the population in all areas of the country. To It is all very well for an hon. Member to mention that respond to the excellent speech by the hon. Member for Uzbekistan has better coverage than the UK—that Wrexham (Ian Lucas), I must say that that is why last sounds like a bit of a slight to Uzbekistan, although I week I announced my ambition of universal superfast am sure that that was unintended—but it is worth broadband in this country, starting with the clear aim remembering that Uzbekistan has a population of 5 million of making sure that 90% of the UK can get at least people, and effectively one mobile broadband provider. 25 megabits per second by 2015. I have now thrown If we want to encourage competition, which will encourage down a bone for the hon. Gentleman, so that he can choice, innovation and low cost, we will also have to table a series of parliamentary questions to elicit further acknowledge that the Government cannot direct and details on that. In defence of the Government’s position, demand how broadband is rolled out. 599 Rural Broadband and Mobile 19 MAY 2011 Rural Broadband and Mobile 600 Coverage Coverage The hon. Member for Wrexham pointed out that we to be realistic, however, about what satellites can deliver. expect two thirds of the country to be covered by They will be a complementary technology, but they private sector investment, with BT and Virgin clearly in certainly do not provide a one-size-fits-all solution. the lead, along with some small network operators. As The key issue—and, I think, the key reason why my so many hon. Members were keen to praise far-flung hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border places all over the world for their broadband, let me be called this debate—is the auction that is about to take the champion of British business and British broadband place for the 800 MHz and 2.6 GHz spectrum, and the providers. Every three months, BT puts down a fibre coverage obligations put forward in Ofcom’s initial network equivalent to that of Singapore. BT, a British outline of how the auction will take place. I remind company, is rolling out broadband at twice the pace of hon. Members that this is being consulted on; it is not Deutsche Telekom, twice the pace of AT&T and twice fixed in stone. This debate will be important not just for the pace of Verizon. That is something that we should the Treasury to watch, but for Ofcom, which will give be very proud of. BT recently announced that it expects serious consideration to any representations, along with to offer an 80 megabit service next year, while Virgin appropriate evidence, on whether to increase the coverage already offers a 100 megabit service. I do not want to obligation attached to the 800 MHz licence. It is important sound too patriotic because we also welcome the that robust evidence is made available. intervention of Fujitsu, which has plans to bring fibre Let me make it absolutely clear to hon. Members that connections to 5 million rural homes. the auctioning of spectrum is not a money-raising The key to this debate is supporting those areas exercise. In fact, under European rules, it is not appropriate where the market will not deliver. We have already to auction spectrum simply to raise the maximum revenue announced four pilot areas, including the one represented possible. Ofcom has to take into account a whole range by my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The of different factors, including the investment capacity Border—it was more than life was worth not to have his of operators. It must also undertake a cost-benefit constituency as one of the pilot areas, although it was, analysis of whether the coverage obligations are of course, I emphasise, an independent decision—along inappropriately expensive. with North Yorkshire, Herefordshire and the highlands It is important that Ofcom’s consultation is seen to be and islands. [Interruption.] Well, we all know about the open, transparent and robust. One thing that I have discussion of Herefordshire and Wales that took place learned in government is that the constituency of mobile in the House a few months ago. and telecoms operators with which I deal comprises not We will announce the next wave of pilots next week. only with some of the most fantastic British companies, As the hon. Member for Wrexham pointed out, this is but some of the most litigious. If my hon. Friend the indeed where government gets difficult, because we will Member for Penrith and The Border could have done have to say no to a few. Let me offer a crumb of comfort any additional work in marshalling his forces for this to those who may get bad news next week. From now evening’s debate, it would have involved conveying to on, we shall be working on a first-come, first-served the chief executive of each company, in no uncertain basis. We will not announce a third and fourth wave; terms, his and his colleagues’ view that we must get on any local authority whose bid is not accepted can sit with the auction, and that any attempt to disrupt it down with Broadband Delivery UK, work through the through litigation could set back the auction and therefore bid to find out where the gaps are and then come the roll-out of spectrum. forward again when it is ready. It will be a rolling I have deliberately avoided being partisan in my process. We also recently announced the creation of a speech, but I must express disappointment about the rural community broadband fund, which is expected to interventionist approach that I consider the last Government be worth up to an additional £20 million—above and to have taken in regard to the spectrum auction. I beyond the £530 million we have made available. believe that if they had simply left it to Ofcom, we I am conscious of time and I am anxious to talk would have reached the end of the process before the about mobile voice and mobile broadband. I understand present Government had even come to office. the issue. In rural Oxfordshire, in the village close to We should bear in mind the changes that are taking Wantage where I live, I have to stand in the middle of place in the UK mobile market and in technology. I had the road to get mobile coverage. When I was candidate the privilege of visiting Alcatel-Lucent recently to observe before the 2005 election, simply getting my constituents the technology that it is developing in Swindon. It is connected to the internet was a high priority for me. I good to see inward investment taking place there. pay tribute to the work of community broadband groups, Technologies such as femtocells—which, essentially, provide which many hon. Members have mentioned, as their small base stations in the home or office—will radically ability to galvanise enthusiasm and put forward solutions improve indoor coverage, and will give users better is important, encouraging other operators to take an coverage. interest and see that provision of rural broadband can The hon. Member for Wrexham made a valid point be profitable. in his critique of the Government’s policy in regard to Broadband Delivery UK is taking a technologically local authority bids. I think that local authorities are neutral approach to solutions; mobile broadband is a best placed to lead the bids, but it is important to potential solution for hard-to-reach areas. We want to remember that Broadband Delivery UK sits behind the see partnerships between fixed, mobile, wireless and bidding process,. It is able to advise local authorities on satellite operators to compete for the available funds. I procurement, and assesses bids partly on the basis of emphasise that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. A the capacity of a local authority to deliver in terms of couple of my hon. Friends mentioned the benefits of its personnel and expertise. The more such bids are satellite technology. I am lucky enough to have the made and the more individual local authorities engage National Space Centre in my constituency, so I would in procurement exercises, the more other local authorities be more than happy to see a satellite solution. We have will have an opportunity to learn from the process. 601 19 MAY 2011 602

[Mr Vaizey] East Coast Main Line Call Centre Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Let me end by reminding the House that Rome was do now adjourn.—(Mr Dunne.) not built in a day. We must bear in mind the capacity of the private operators and companies that will deliver superfast broadband. I believe that we have adequate 5.59 pm sums to support it, but I take the concerns expressed by Members on both sides of the House very seriously. We Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): It is timely that on the are working as hard as we can, given the constraints day Sir Roy McNulty’s report on why Britain’s railways within in which we operate, to deliver good superfast cost more than other European railways is published, broadband to as many people as possible by 2015. and on the day he recommends yet further fragmentation of our rail network and fails to consider seriously the 5.58 pm benefits of reintegrating the railways under public ownership or why billions of pounds are drained from the industry Rory Stewart: I thank all Members who took part in in profits to the train operating companies, we have this the debate. It is extraordinary that on a Thursday opportunity to consider East Coast’s decision to threaten afternoon 20 Members should speak on a motion tabled the future of 180 jobs on Tyneside by transferring an by 100. I also echo the thanks expressed to Louis Mosley. important customer service part of its operation to The fibre issue remains central to the debate, and I Mumbai in India. am sorry that I did not say more about it. The connection As Members will be aware, the east coast main line of fibre through backhaul to mobile telephone masts service is wholly owned by Directly Operated Railways needs to be addressed. However, it on mobile broadband Ltd, trading under the name East Coast. DOR Ltd is, in that we should really be focusing because of the consultation turn, wholly owned by Her Majesty’s Government in this evening. the guise of the Secretary of State for Transport. I know Extraordinary changes have been made. By 2015, the Minister will argue that it is not appropriate for the 7.1 billion people will have mobile telephones. That is Government to seek to intervene in operational matters more than the current population of the world. Whatever of this type that are properly for East Coast to address, we do, whether it involves £215 million, 1,500 masts or a but I am a little incredulous about that. 98% coverage obligation, let us use the debate to pass The Minister will probably argue that as the east the message to Ofcom that it must extend the coverage coast main line service is owned by DOR Ltd and not obligation. the Government, the Government have no right to Resolved, intervene. However, I listened very carefully to the That this House recognises that rural businesses and rural Secretary of State’s statement today, during which he communities across the UK are isolated and undermined by slow said: “The Government want Britain’s railways to continue broadband and the lack of mobile voice and mobile broadband to prosper and have demonstrated by their actions their coverage; urges Ofcom to increase the coverage obligation attached commitment to them. Despite the difficult fiscal climate, to the 800MHz spectrum licence to 98 per cent.; and calls upon we have allocated funding to complete Crossrail and the Government to fulfil its commitment to build both the best Thameslink, and to support the upgrade of the London superfast broadband network in Europe and provide everyone in underground. We have announced electrification on the the UK with a minimum of 2 Mbps by 2015. great western main line and in north-west England. We have resumed the intercity express programme to improve Business without Debate reliability, comfort and journey times on the east coast and Great Western main lines.” The Secretary of State BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE therefore plainly takes credit for investment in the railways that, we hope, will improve the service, but he will Ordered, probably in due course deny any responsibility for, That, at the sitting on Wednesday 8 June, notwithstanding influence over, or right to interfere in the affairs of, East paragraph (2)(c)(i) of Standing Order No. 14 (Arrangement of Coast and its decision to close a call centre in Tyneside. public business), opposition business may be proceeded with for three hours; proceedings shall then lapse if not previously disposed The use of the term “we” in the statement followed by a of; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not list of all the actions taken proves that the Government apply.—(Mr Dunne.) can intervene. That leads me to raise the issue of Ministers taking the practice of using smoke and mirrors to evade responsibility to new heights. The purpose of this debate is absolutely clear. I want to ensure that the Secretary for State cannot evade responsibility on this issue. I want to defend 180 local jobs in Tyneside, where unemployment is already well above national averages. I want to highlight the ridiculous scenario whereby a state-owned company—supported by millions of pounds of taxpayer subsidy—is pursuing a policy of exporting jobs to exploit cheaper labour market conditions abroad and throwing local people on to the dole in an unemployment black spot. I want to highlight the false economy savings for both the railway and the United Kingdom Exchequer. I want to highlight that this is simply the latest train franchise cut, in order to make it more attractive to potential bidders when it is 603 East Coast Main Line Call Centre19 MAY 2011 East Coast Main Line Call Centre 604 put up for re-privatisation. Finally, I want to highlight Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): My hon. the context of Sir Roy McNulty’s report and the east Friend says that the company is supported by taxpayers, coast main line’s place in the chaotic structure of the but does he agree that it has also been supported under public and privatised railways. GNER and now as a state-owned company by many East Coast intends, via a re-tendering process, to people in the north-east who have loyally given their move the work currently undertaken at the customer custom to the railway? Does he think that because of contact centre in Baron house in Newcastle upon Tyne these moves they should perhaps consider alternative away from the north-east to Mumbai in India, Plymouth forms of travel? and Wolverhampton—but mostly to Mumbai in India. The following jobs are currently performed at Baron Ian Mearns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that house: customer contact centre and associated services; comment. I have been in discussions with people from inquiry and booking services for telesales, group travel, East Coast about a range of problems on the east coast assisted travel and business travel; ticket fulfilment; main line service. Normally, by this time on a Thursday web support; and customer relations activities. This evening, we are travelling on the east coast main line on action will culminate in the loss of 180 jobs on Tyneside, our way home. We are very familiar with the levels of which will be a bitter blow for the people in a region service and the investment— that is already reeling from the impact of this Government’s economic policy, where between 28% and 32% of the Mr Jones: And with how bad it’s got. work force depend on the public sector for employment, and which is already braced for the disproportionate Ian Mearns: Exactly—and with how bad it has become. impact of the Government cuts, especially in local Next week will see the implementation of a new authority expenditure. The work will now be undertaken timetable, but it will also see the downgrading of a outside the north-east of England and a high number of services that East Coast has been supporting. proportion of it will be undertaken outside the UK, in People in the north-east are asking why we should Mumbai. support East Coast when there might well be better The following operations will now take place in the alternatives for travel across the country. That is not following locations: group and assisted travel and ticket good from an environmental perspective. fulfilment will go to Plymouth; public telesales will go to Mumbai; web support and ticket fulfilment will go to Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I Wolverhampton; business travel services will cease as a thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for obtaining telephone service and will be online only, supported in this Adjournment debate on an important issue. The Wolverhampton; East Coast customer relations will go centre at Baron house is in my constituency and it is to Intelenet in Plymouth; delay repay, processing only, true that the people of the north-east have always given will go to Intelenet in Mumbai; and lost property will significant support to the east coast rail service. Has go to Plymouth. there been any criticism of the work at Baron house? Is it not the case that it has always been performed well and that its performance is not the reason for moving Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend the contract? remember the Prime Minister suggesting, before the election, that the north-east would be hit hardest and Ian Mearns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The first? Does my hon. Friend agree that this is just another call centre at Baron house has provided an excellent case—a shining example—of an attack on decent hard- level of customer service. Nationally, people regard the working people in the north-east and that that should north-eastern accent as reliable— not be tolerated any more? Mr Jones: Trustworthy, too. Ian Mearns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. Members from the north-east of Ian Mearns: The accent is regarded as reliable and England have mentioned on numerous occasions how trustworthy when it comes to providing call centre the cuts imposed by the Department for Communities services, and that is why the north-east has become a and Local Government in particular have disproportionately centre for call centre operations. Conversely, it is sad to hit the north-east of England. Councils in our region reflect that unfortunately British customers are averse have lost four times the measure of public finance from to call centres based offshore. the central Government grant than those in the south-east outside London. The impact is disproportionate on an Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I, too, area that is already struggling in this economic climate. compliment my hon. Friend on securing a debate on this issue, which is important to the north-east and has Staff have been advised that they will lose the benefits some national significance. In view of today’s statement that would normally accrue to people working in the on the McNulty report and the arguments being made rail industry and that their rail travel facilities will be by Ministers about needing to reduce the public subsidy retained only until 31 December. The transfer of work to the rail industry, is this not another example of false is being phased and will begin on American Independence economy if the method of reducing the subsidy is to day, 4 July, with the last shift work to be done on transfer overseas UK jobs that support the economy, 23 July. Over those three weeks, the work will gradually particularly in areas such as the north-east? be moved from Baron house in Newcastle. Surely it is totally unacceptable for a state-owned Ian Mearns: My hon. Friend makes a very good company such as East Coast, supported by taxpayers’ point. At a time when the Government claim that money, to export jobs abroad. supporting growth in the UK economy is their priority, 605 East Coast Main Line Call Centre19 MAY 2011 East Coast Main Line Call Centre 606

[Ian Mearns] In subcontracting jobs abroad, the company has made a narrow, short-term financial decision. No account has surely exporting good quality jobs from the north-east been taken of the impact that the loss of skills and jobs to India cannot be defended. There is also the issue of will have on the north-east region, its community and the public’s perception of the level of service they will the local economy. Nor has any account been taken of get as a result. the obvious cost to the UK in benefits of whose who The Secretary of State denies responsibility for this will be made redundant as a result or of the reduction while passing on millions in public subsidy. The company in tax revenue for the Exchequer. The McNulty report received £40 million in direct funding from the taxpayer states that value for money is not just about pounds and in the nine months to 31 March 2010 by way of a pence, but about how the railway realises its wider working capital loan facility agreed with the Secretary benefits to society.Through fragmentation and privatisation, of State. Given the investment from the UK taxpayer, those benefits will be lost. surely there must be a moral obligation for a state-owned The industry’s most valuable asset is its work force. company to retain jobs in the UK. There should at least These redundancies mark a wasteful loss of knowledge be some consideration given to those jobs being taken and skills that have been honed through years of experience. in-house by the operator. That work is not going to go They damage the shared commitment to the overall away. It is a much-needed, public-facing aspect of the service that a proper public service ethos can bring. train service operation and there is no evidence that the They impose a hidden cost of increased interfaces in the transfer will improve the service afforded to the public. industry, blur transparency and accountability and de-clarify The Government’s stance could be regarded as lines of responsibility, which would be the hallmark of hypocritical. They declare their commitment to growth a more efficient railway. and rebalancing the economy, and day after day they The blow to the economy of the north-east cannot be preach to private business about the need to help the overestimated. The loss of these jobs to the region is yet economy to recover by creating new jobs, but in the case another blow to the local economy and to our local of East Coast—a company that we fully own—they sit communities. Tyneside already suffers a level of back and permit the export of jobs from a company unemployment above the national average. The growth that belongs to the taxpayer. Let me be clear: my in call centre work has been an important factor in primary concern is for the people whose lives are affected providing new employment in the north-east after the by this, but equally important is the impact on industry decline of manufacturing and, in particular, heavy industry, of exporting real jobs, particularly customer contact which arguably was caused mainly by a previous jobs, to another country, which represents a retrograde Government of the same nature. step away from an integrated transport policy. Despite As we all know, the Government are determined to the McNulty report’s failure seriously to consider the reduce workers’ rights in the UK. They call it removing benefits of reintegrating the railways under public red tape and are strongly tempted to try to remove the ownership, many in the House are convinced that the rights of workers through Transfer of Undertakings evidence demonstrates that the reason why railways in (Protection of Employment) Regulations. However, TUPE Europe are cheaper for the taxpayer and the fare payer has been rendered irrelevant in this situation. A worker is that on the whole they are in public ownership and having the right to follow their work to the new company are less fragmented. is simply not a realistic or viable option for those at There is a wealth of evidence to show that overseas Baron house, who now face the complete closure of call centres are not the answer for companies that are their workplace, with a move for a few possibly to looking to cut costs. In May 2004, a Department of Plymouth or the bulk to India of course being impractical. Trade and Industry study found that work force costs The awarding of this customer contact centre contract that had not been fully factored into business evaluations to a company with operations in Mumbai should not be of offshoring included the additional costs of employing seen in isolation. It is the next stage in trying to make local law specialists, consultants and accountants, as the company more attractive to potential bidders in well as the cost of redundancies, redeployment and preparation for the eventual re-privatisation of the franchise reskilling displaced UK workers. It revealed that staff in 2013. Already this week we have witnessed the end of turnover at Indian call centres in particular was about a buffet car service on the east coast main line and the 25% compared with about 15% in the UK, with an direct service from London to Glasgow has already average job tenure of about 12 months compared with been greatly reduced. Clearly the aim of the game is not three years in the UK. Higher attrition rates surely customer service, or even value for money. cannot be beneficial to good-quality customer service. In July 2009, there was a huge outcry when the Despite the overwhelming social, environmental and Association of Train Operating Companies moved economic benefits of retaining services from London 200 National Rail inquiries jobs from the UK to India. King’s Cross to Glasgow, the direct services have been Subsequently, it was widely believed that the quality of dramatically scaled back from 13 trains a day to just service to the British travelling public had decreased. At two, one in each direction—the 6.50 am service from the same time, BT decided to move 2,000 call-centre Glasgow to King’s Cross and the 3 pm service heading jobs back from India to the UK as part of a long-term in the opposite direction. strategy to cut costs by £1 billion and to reduce dependency In the context of the McNulty report, clearly the east on third parties. In 2005, the Select Committee on coast main line has a troubled history. I will not go into Trade and Industry reported that customer satisfaction that now, but it is important that we think about the surveys found that UK consumers did not like businesses Government’s responsibility to manage that franchise. they believed had offshored their services, preferring to They do have a responsibility and they can change this deal with call centres in the UK. decision. 607 East Coast Main Line Call Centre19 MAY 2011 East Coast Main Line Call Centre 608

6.17 pm assets, so it would be irresponsible to intervene and overturn the operator’s commercial decisions. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I congratulate the hon. Member Chi Onwurah: I share the consternation and concern for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) on securing the debate and of my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham on his speech. I completely understand the concerns of (Mr Jones) at the approach that the Minister has outlined. those working at the Baron house call centre. It is clear East Coast clearly does not have shareholders, as the that job losses are a very harsh blow to the people other franchises do, but a shareholder could and, we concerned. That is one of the reasons why the coalition hope, would respond to public pressure and outrage if Government are working so hard to try to create the decisions were made that went so against corporate right conditions for growth and the creation of new responsibility, so it is only just that the Secretary of jobs. State should play a similar role. Mr Kevan Jones: In the north-east? Mrs Villiers: As I have made clear, the coalition Government’s adopted approach, which the previous Mrs Villiers: Absolutely, in the north-east and right Labour Government espoused, is that the franchise across the country. should be operated on a commercial basis by East Before responding to the hon. Member’s questions, I Coast Ltd. It should not be the subject of political must first clarify and reiterate the relationship between direction from the Secretary of State. the Government and the east coast main line operator. East Coast Main Line Ltd is wholly owned by Directly Grahame M. Morris: That is a crucial point if we are Operated Railways Ltd, which is, as he pointed out, arguing about commercial decisions. As my hon. Friend owned by the Government. East Coast and DOR are the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) said in an companies registered under the Companies Act and excellent speech, is there not a weight of evidence from operate in accordance with their own articles of association banks, insurance companies and various private sector and governance. This provides a framework for the companies that overseas call centres are becoming less operation of the franchise as a free-standing entity in and less popular, including with customers, and that readiness for the return of the franchise to the private therefore any move would damage the potential to sell sector, a return that was envisaged by the previous the franchise to the private sector? Is there not an Government as well as the current one. argument that it would be beneficial to the future sale of the company to keep the call centre at least in the UK, Grahame M. Morris: I am slightly perplexed by that but certainly in the north-east, where it is? explanation and tempted to think of the situation with the banks. The Chancellor and the Prime Minister have Mrs Villiers: The people best placed to make the told us that influence is being exerted on the state-owned decision about what is best for the East Coast operation banks to ensure that they lend to small and medium-sized are the specialist practitioners who run East Coast Ltd, enterprises. Is the Minister suggesting that such influence not Ministers, not Members. Those practitioners are cannot be applied on this company with regard to jobs? the best people to make the best decision about what is in the interests of fare payers and taxpayers. East Coast Mrs Villiers: I will explain the relationship between is confident that the new arrangements will deliver East Coast and the Secretary of State. The aim is for better services for passengers and far better value for that relationship to replicate the arrangements for franchises money. elsewhere on the network in order to ensure that the principles of private sector operation are embraced and Mr Kevan Jones: Will the Minister give way? maintained. The reason for that approach is so that the Secretary of State is able to protect the value of the Mrs Villiers: As I will outline, should I get the franchise and the taxpayer gets value for money when opportunity, the options were fully explored in relation the franchise returns to the private sector. to continuing the relationship between the Baron house If the Department or my right hon. Friend the Secretary call centre and the East Coast operation, but it was of State were to start intervening in the way the operator found not to be viable in terms of value for money. If runs East Coast, for example by overturning decisions East Coast were to ignore value-for-money considerations, based on commercial considerations, they might well not only would the taxpayer suffer, but the fare payer have to answer for their decisions in front of the Public would as well. Accounts Committee. I am afraid that we do not believe it a viable option to intervene on the basis of political or Mr Jones: Has the right hon. Lady, as a Minister, non-commercial considerations, even if the Secretary of looked at the case in detail, taking into account not State were minded to do so. only the value for money for East Coast, but the cost to the taxpayer in terms of redundancy payments directly Mr Kevan Jones: On the threat that the Public Accounts from the company and the unemployment benefit that Committee is going to question what the Minister does, will have to be paid in the north-east of England? Has may I just say as a former Minister that it can question she actually looked at the case in detail? anything a Minister does? So, that argument is a complete nonsense. Mrs Villiers: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that East Coast has looked in detail at the viable option for Mrs Villiers: The Secretary of State is under a duty to the operation of the franchise. safeguard the assets vested in the Department for Transport. The East Coast operation happens to be one of those Mr Jones: But have you? 609 East Coast Main Line Call Centre19 MAY 2011 East Coast Main Line Call Centre 610

Mrs Villiers: I think that we have covered the issue Ian Lavery: Will the Minister give way? with some clarity. Mrs Villiers: No, I have been very generous. Ian Mearns: The Minister is saying that the people Greater flexibility was sought to enable a better response best placed to make those decisions are the people in to sudden peaks in demand for call centre services—for charge of the commercial considerations at East Coast—the example, as occurred over the winter. A priority for very people who have overseen the running-down of the East Coast Ltd was to ensure a stable future for its service and the provision of a very poor service along contact centre services. Due diligence was conducted to the east coast main line. establish if it was feasible for DOR to purchase NXSL and the contact centre and operate it as a subsidiary. Mrs Villiers: Of course I am well aware of the However, this proposition was not viable because of the performance issues on the east coast route at the moment. significant liabilities associated with the call centre. A However, I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the working capital injection of approximately £2 million improving performance of the train operator. The bulk would have been required, plus further investment to of the problems that are currently being experienced are turn around a loss-making business. the result of problems with the infrastructure, over East Coast worked with National Express to see which East Coast has no control. I hope that in future, whether the Newcastle operation could be sold to a with the McNulty-style reforms, we will see shared third-party expert in call centre services. Bids were incentives and improved performance from Network received, but they faced the same purchase problems Rail. It is a mistake for the hon. Gentleman to blame identified by East Coast and fell through when it proved those running the East Coast operation for the current impossible to agree a price. East Coast also considered performance problems. They bear a share of the whether some of the services could be provided in-house, responsibility, but the bulk of it, I am afraid, is Network but it is not a telephone contact centre specialist, and it Rail’s. concluded that it did not have the capacity or expertise Turning to the facts of the case, National Express to provide in-house services to the high standards that Services Ltd, or NXSL, was providing call centre services its customers wanted and that it was possible to get to National Express East Coast—NXEC—before its from a third-party supplier. franchise terminated in 2009. NXSL is a separate Having exhausted all possible options, East Coast commercial entity from NXEC and therefore was not concluded that the only viable way forward was to seek taken over by Directly Operated Railways—DOR—at a new specialist supplier to provide call centre services. the handover. To ensure business continuity, contact In parallel with National Express’s efforts to secure a centre services continued to be provided from Baron third-party purchaser, East Coast initiated an Official house to East Coast Ltd on a temporary basis, but two Journal of the European Union procurement process to major problems stood in the way of this arrangement invite bidders to provide contact centre services. The continuing on a longer term basis: first, the cost base of legal requirements of that process meant that East the Newcastle call centre; and secondly, the fact that Coast was not permitted to specify the location from telesales volumes have been falling rapidly across the which these services were to be provided. The Utilities rail network as customers switch to internet buying. Contracts Regulations 2006 prevent this unless a particular location is essential for the provision of the service. As Ian Lavery rose— the hon. Gentleman said, the outcome of the process was a contract with Intelenet UK for public telesales, Mrs Villiers: I am going to continue for a moment. group and assisted travel, ticket fulfilment and customer In 2006, 11% of East Coast ticket sales were made relations, and a further contract with Atos Origin for over the telephone—today, that figure has fallen to just web support and web ticket fulfilment. 1.9%—and 50% of East Coast advance ticket sales are I appreciate that this process has a downside and is a now made via the internet. real blow for those working at the National Express call Following the failure of the NXEC franchise, the centre, but there is an upside for passengers. I am services provided by the customer contact centre were advised that East Coast believes that the new contract— reviewed by East Coast and by National Express. That review concluded that it was not commercially viable 6.30 pm for the call centre to continue to provide telesales services House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order to the new east coast operator. No. 9(7)). 141WH 19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 142WH

report—that that argument is somewhat weakened by Westminster Hall the establishment of a Welsh Assembly. Hon. Members must take account of that.

Thursday 19 May 2011 Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Government continue to talk about greater democratic accountability and the [PHILIP DAVIES in the Chair] reform of the House of Lords. Current plans are to get rid of 50 elected representatives from the House of Constitutional Reform (Wales) Commons, including a quarter of Welsh MPs, and at the same time to introduce an extra 150 unelected [Relevant documents: First Report from the Welsh Affairs Lords. There is no real chance of those reforms to the Committee, Session 2010-11, HC 495, and the Government House of Lords going forward. Is the hon. Gentleman Response, HC 729.] worried about having a greater proportion of unelected Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting representatives and fewer elected representatives, and be now adjourned.—(David Jones.) will he vote against that?

2.30 pm David T. C. Davies: The hon. Gentleman wisely anticipates a point that I am about to come to. I will David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): This is the return to that subject; he may hold me to that. first time that I have served under your chairmanship, Mr Davies, and it is a great pleasure to do so. We have Let me make an obvious point that the Minister may sat on the Back Benches for many years and have been wish to deal with. Wales is geographically challenging impressed by the loquaciousness of Front-Bench Members when it comes to offering representation. By that I from both sides of the House; sometimes, they have mean that many of its communities are cohesive because entertained us for so long that we have not had a chance of the topography of the area, and certain valleys make to speak. Time is short today, and because I believe it obvious constituencies. They may never contain the important that all hon. Members should have the requisite number of people, but it is not terribly wise opportunity to contribute, I will limit my speech to simply to say, “That can constitute a constituency, and 10 minutes. [Interruption.] Other hon. Members are we’ll add a bit of the valley next door to get the entering the Chamber as I speak. numbers absolutely right.” The issue of constitutional change and the Parliamentary A place that may look nearby on a map will not Voting System and Constituencies Bill was the first necessarily be easy to access. We already have areas in subject considered by the Welsh Affairs Committee. It which it is challenging to be a good constituency MP. has been a great pleasure to work with all members of Constituencies such as Montgomeryshire and Brecon that Committee. The Select Committee system is one of and Radnorshire are very large—I see my hon. Friend the great unsung success stories of Parliament, and I the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) is in wish that those members of the public who think that the Chamber—and presumably they will get even larger. we spend all our time arguing with each other could see That will pose challenges for the MP who represents what goes on in a Select Committee. Despite the range such a constituency. of views, there is always room for compromise and To some extent, we are allowing a bandwagon to roll agreement on certain issues. that suggests that all Members of Parliament are lazy Unanimously, members of the Welsh Affairs Committee and do not have enough to do, and that we should had concerns about the changes to the constitution. get rid of a few of them, and give others an extra The first issue that we looked at was the idea of holding 10,000 constituents because that will produce a good a referendum on the same day as the Welsh Assembly headline in the newspaper. I hope that that is not the elections. We expressed our concerns about that, and case, but I fear that as a profession, MPs do not stand made clear our opinion that the Government needed up for themselves and neither does anybody else. to take measures to ensure that the referendum ran smoothly—which, to be fair, it did. There were concerns MPs have a right to be treated in the same way as any about timing and the counting of the vote, but there one else in the country; when I read in the press that were not many spoilt ballot papers and I am glad that MPs should be treated like anyone else, I say that I the two elections went smoothly. could not agree more and that it is about time that we were treated the same in every respect. That means, Many concerns remain, however, over proposals to however, that if someone changes our terms and conditions reorder the boundaries in Wales and reduce the number of work with the stroke of a pen, we should be entitled of Welsh MPs by a significant number, probably about to a certain amount of notice. If we are to be given a lot a quarter. There are concerns about the impact that of extra work—I take my role very seriously, as do hon. such a change will have on the ability of Wales and the Members from all parties—it is only right that we Welsh people to ensure that their voice is heard in should be given time to prepare for that. Parliament. I accept the point, made on a previous occasion by the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul I promised that I would return to the good point Murphy), that the reforms will be one of the greatest raised by the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint changes since the Great Reform Act. Ever since that Davies) and the proposals to reform the House of Act, Wales has been strongly represented to reflect the Lords. I could understand some of the desire to reduce fact that it is a small nation that needs to get its voice the number of MPs from 650 to 600 were it not for the across. I must add—this would not have been in the fact that at the same time, we are increasing the number 143WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 144WH

[David T. C. Davies] be done to ensure that accurate numbers of people were recorded and that the information used to redraw the of Members of the House of Lords and are possibly boundaries was accurate. I look forward to hearing about to elect them on an 80:20 basis—we will see from this Minister what work has been undertaken to whether that comes to pass. ensure that everyone who should be on the electoral roll It certainly looks as though it will be more expensive is on it. to manage the House of Lords. If we wish to act in a cohesive fashion, surely we should have considered the Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): Does my hon. Friend possibility of maintaining the number of MPs at 650. agree that voter registration is of particular concern We could have reordered the constituencies so that they along the north Wales coast, where there is a transient contained the same numbers of constituents, but we population? could also have ensured that they remained closer to their current state, without necessarily expecting MPs David T. C. Davies: I do agree, but the evidence that to do all sorts of extra work. I have no problem with we had suggested that voter registration is an issue in all working hard, but adding an extra 10,000 people to a parts of Wales and perhaps particularly in some of the constituency will present certain challenges. We should more urban areas. However, even if it is an issue in just not jump to do that simply because it is demanded by one part of one constituency, it is a big issue, because the tabloids. this is about democracy and ensuring that everyone can exercise their right to vote. How big the issue is I cannot Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) say, but I look forward to an explanation from the (Con): How many of my hon. Friend’s constituents have Minister. written to him asking for this matter to be treated as a priority? Geraint Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give way again? David T. C. Davies: In all truth, hardly any constituents have written to me about this matter. A few have written David T. C. Davies: I will, but I am looking at the to me to say that they are shocked and horrified by the clock. fact that one in four Welsh MPs are going to disappear. I had to write back and say that I am also surprised and Geraint Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman not accept concerned, and that unfortunately they will have to fly that a disproportionate—[Interruption.] I can’t speak. I the flag for me on the issue as I dread to think what the have lost my—[Interruption.] Daily Mail would say if it thought that I was simply trying to protect my job. David T. C. Davies: I will be happy to give way to the Members of Parliament work extremely hard at the hon. Gentleman again if he wants. I apologise, but I did moment, and I have no problem with them working not quite hear what he said. [Laughter.] He is more harder in the future if that is possible. I do, however, than welcome to intervene on me again. have a problem with the timing of the legislation and the way that it has been introduced very quickly. I was Geraint Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman accept that surprised that there were not more opportunities to there is a disproportionate tendency for poorer communities debate the matter, although I do not entirely blame the not to register? The boundaries should really be based Government for that. on the best estimate of the number of people eligible to At least one Welsh MP, who is not present today, vote, as opposed to those who are registered, given that seemed able, at the drop of a hat, to deliver speeches young people, ethnic communities, people in private that lasted more than an hour and covered different rented accommodation and so on are under-represented. clauses of the Bill. That prevented us from reaching those amendments that applied to Wales. I listen to David T. C. Davies: I will not accept that. The evidence “Just a Minute” on Radio 4; he could easily have done that we had was that significant numbers of people are “Just an Hour.” To pay him a small compliment, I not registered to vote. It was right that we asked the should say that he was quite entertaining and not many Parliamentary Secretary at the Cabinet Office, who is people can speak for an hour and be entertaining—at responsible for the matter, to come back to us with this rate, I will struggle to make 10 minutes. further information about how that would be rectified, and he promised us announcements and assured us that Geraint Davies: He used to be a vicar, though. action would be taken. I do not think that we had enough evidence to say David T. C. Davies: I am not going to name the hon. where the problem is most widespread. I certainly do Gentleman concerned and I shall let that comment stay not personally think that we should start redrawing the on the record. boundaries based on what is at best an educated guess Another issue that concerned us when we conducted as to what the problem might be—that is, having a look the report was the evidence that we received to suggest at constituencies and saying, “Well, that is not very that much of the information that the Boundary affluent, and urban, so we think that x% are not registered. Commission will work on is out of date or inaccurate. We’ll just redraw the boundary on that basis.” Too many people who should be on the electoral role have not registered for one reason or another. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): The The Parliamentary Secretary at the Cabinet Office, hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. A number my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean of hon. Members have campaigned about the need to (Mr Harper), assured us that a great deal of work would increase registration for a long time, not just in relation 145WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 146WH to this issue. We have just had a census. Will the Electoral because we are afraid that we will be seen to be self-serving Commission be able to use the information revealed by if we do not accept a large cut in our own numbers. It the census in its calculations and judgments? becomes much harder to justify cutting the number of MPs on a cost basis if at the same time we are going to David T. C. Davies: The hon. Gentleman asks me that spend large sums funding the House of Lords, whether question. Perhaps I should take that as a compliment, they be elected, appointed or a mixture of both. because the question probably ought to be asked of the If the Government support the role of the Back-Bench Minister. I am tempted to say that I will check with my MP in holding Ministers to account through forums officials and write to the hon. Gentleman. In fact, I do such as the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, they not even have a researcher working for me in London, also need to explain to us what will happen to the but I am sure that the Minister will reply for me in a few number of Ministers. I hope that if we are looking to minutes’ time. save money by cutting the number of MPs, there will be consistency and that that will be applied to Ministers Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): as well. The hon. Gentleman may be aware of the work done by the Committee on Standards in Public Life during my 2.47 pm period as a member of that Committee, which highlighted the failure of the Electoral Commission to exercise the Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): It is good to take part powers that it already has to encourage consistency of in a debate under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. Your registration throughout the country. Is not one of the surname is a Welsh surname of considerable importance, points that we can agree on that the consistency of so I am sure that you were interested to join us for this registration needs to be driven up in advance of the important debate. I agreed with every single word that move, which all parties have supported, to individual the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), registration, because the transition from one system to my constituency neighbour, said. The only problem is another is a potentially fragile period that could make a that there are plenty of members of the Government bad situation worse? who did not and, indeed, it may be too late for some of the excellent points that he made to be effective. David T. C. Davies: Yes, I think we can all agree on One of the good aspects of what is happening this that. I can only say that in evidence the Minister promised afternoon is that the Welsh Affairs Committee was the that there would be very strong action to rectify the only body—the only institution—in Parliament that problem. It is probably a failing on my part, but I am dealt properly with the question of constituency boundaries not yet absolutely certain that I know what that action in Wales. Hon. Members will know that, on the Floor will be. I am sure that we will all be enlightened today. of the House, the issue of Welsh boundaries was never The Boundary Commission said to us that it would reached. There was a considerable and excellent debate look purely at numbers. When it gave evidence, it said in the other place, but not in the House of Commons. that this was a numbers game and nothing else would Similarly, we asked the Secretary of State for a sitting of come into the equation. It said that it would not look at the Welsh Grand Committee so that all Welsh Members the topography, the geography, the geographical size of of Parliament could discuss the most important issue a constituency, the local authority boundaries or anything that affects our constitution, but we were refused. else; it would look simply at the numbers. Since that When we couple that with the fact that we seem to evidence was given, I have detected a slight change in have lost our Welsh day debate, despite my attempts tone, in that the Boundary Commission is now talking and those of the right hon. Member for Dwyfor about trying to match up local authority boundaries Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) to ask the Backbench Business where it can. But this will be primarily about numbers. Committee to ensure that we did have a debate on Welsh matters, which has been the case in the House of Alun Michael: Just to be clear, is the hon. Gentleman Commons since 1944, we see that the opportunities that now talking about the intentions of the Boundary we could have had have been missed. Nevertheless, the Commission, as distinct from the standards improvement fact that the hon. Member for Monmouth has initiated that I was talking about in relation to the Electoral this debate is to be welcomed. Commission? I think that the two points are consistent as long as we are— Alun Michael: My right hon. Friend has made an extremely powerful point about the St David’s day David T. C. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman is debate. That has always been regarded across parties as absolutely right. I fully accept the point that he made an important element in the year. The suggestion that it about the Electoral Commission. I am coming to the can be ignored and pushed to one side by regarding it as end of my allocated time now, but that is what the Back-Bench business is wrong. It is surely business that Boundary Commission has said. Its original evidence should be dealt with in Government time, as has always worries me. The messages that have been coming out been the case in the past. since then reassure me a little, but we will still end up with completely different constituencies and with one in Paul Murphy: Yes. It is ironic that the Secretary of four MPs in Wales disappearing. State has written to the Backbench Committee arguing We have not stood up for ourselves; we have been that there should be a Welsh day debate; I guess the afraid to stand up for ourselves. The vast majority of right hon. Lady will now have to argue with her Cabinet people in this Chamber and in the House of Commons colleagues and the Leader of the House to ensure that work very hard and do a very good job. To some extent, we have a debate to discuss Welsh matters on the Floor we have been pushed into accepting the proposals, of the House. 147WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 148WH

[Paul Murphy] that, by definition, represents the nations within it, and if we reduce the number of MPs in Wales by a quarter—a The hon. Member for Monmouth did not touch on disproportionate reduction from 40 to 30—their influence one excellent point made by his Committee, which is in the House of Commons and in Government will be that there was insufficient time for the changes to be seriously weakened. We have made that point to the debated, and that no draft legislation has come before Government time after time, but they have shut their the House on this important matter. That contrasts ears. entirely with the way in which the Government are dealing with the reform of the House of Lords, where The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales there is a draft Bill, a White Paper, a Joint Committee (Mr David Jones): I am most grateful to the right hon. and an attempt at consensus. None of those were the Gentleman for giving way. He makes a point that he has case for the Bill that we are discussing today. That is to made previously on the Floor of the House and on the be regretted, because my experience of dealing with last occasion when we debated the matter in Westminster constitutional matters, which goes back some years, is Hall. How does he get over the need for equality in that such reform will never last unless there is a foundation terms of vote? Is it not the essence of democracy that of consensus. If they are seen to be wholly partial, everyone’s vote, wherever in the country it is cast, should which I believe the present proposals are, they will not be of equal validity? Is it not the case that, if Wales were be of lasting value to our country. The Welsh Affairs disproportionately advantaged, that principle would be Committee was very wise when dealing with the matter. broken? I have a great deal of time for the Minister, and I welcome him to this debate, but it would be nice now Paul Murphy: Wales can never be disproportionately and again if his boss were to turn up. I twice held the advantaged. Even now, we have only 40 of the 659 seats. post of Secretary of State over a five-year period, and Whatever England wants to do, it can do through its whenever we had important debates on such subjects Members of Parliament. It can overwhelmingly outweigh I thought it important that the Secretary of State for the Members of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland Wales should attend. It has not happened in this Parliament. put together. There is never a case where that cannot The only time that the Secretary of State for Wales has happen. dealt with the issue is in reply to the odd question or two at Question Time. There has been no debate. Indeed, she stopped the Welsh Grand Committee debating the David T. C. Davies: With all due respect, the right matter, so we do not know what she has to say about the hon. Gentleman slightly avoids the question. With the fact that 25% of Welsh Members will be losing their advent of the Welsh Assembly, Members of Parliament constituencies. in England cannot do anything about the health service in Wales, nor about education, roads and the many Since the Welsh Affairs Committee produced its report, other issues about which our constituents write to us. we have had a referendum; that has given legislative power to the National Assembly, and a new National Assembly and Executive has been elected and appointed. Paul Murphy: We now touch on the other point that I The impact of that on the role of the Secretary of State intended to raise before concluding—the so-called West is, if nothing else, hugely significant. Even at this late Lothian question. stage, I still make the plea that, before the summer There will be a reduction in the number of Members recess, the Welsh Secretary liaises with the Leader of the of Parliament—it will be a huge reduction, and it will House so that the Welsh Grand Committee can debate weaken Wales’s voice here, even though it would not the matter. influence what happens in Parliament—and the answer I will not take up much more time because other to the West Lothian question will mean that Welsh Members wish to speak, but I want to emphasise one Members of Parliament will be of a different type from important aspect of the Union. I am a unionist—with a the English MP.We will have different types of Members small “u”—and I believe that the union of Northern in the House, some MPs being able to vote on this and Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England has proved successful. some on that. That is unknown in any other European In Northern Ireland, it is for the people there to decide country and, as far as I am aware, in the world. what to do—the principle of consent. We have seen A reduction in the number of Welsh MPs, a reduction dramatic changes in the last couple of weeks in Scotland in their rights, a constant grizzling and grumbling about and in Wales as a result of the elections. However, I fear the Barnett formula, the fact that people think that that unless the Conservative party in Britain listens to Wales does better than parts of England, the fact that the Conservative party in Wales—there is a big difference we can do different things in Cardiff and Edinburgh —we are heading for big trouble. and Belfast—student fees, for instance—which is what The Prime Minister talks about fighting for the Union devolution is all about, and the way in which the House with every fibre of his being. I understand that, and I do deals with Welsh business, with the Welsh day debate not doubt his sincerity for a second. However, what has disappearing, all adds to the case for separatism, and happened to Wales’s constitution and its relationship to not for the Union. the House of Commons and Parliament over the last year shows that we must be very careful in what we do. Mr David Jones: I am most grateful to the right hon. As the hon. Member for Monmouth said, the reduction Gentleman for giving way again. He touches on an in the number of Members is not simply about the same extremely important. I entirely agree that the West number of MPs representing the same number of Lothian question is vital; in my view, it has not been constituencies and the same number of electors as with properly addressed and should have been addressed English or Scottish seats. We have a United Kingdom prior to the establishment of devolution. 149WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 150WH

I want to deal with the question of the number of I am beginning to feel that there is a belief among some Welsh MPs. Did the right hon. Gentleman read the Conservative Members of Parliament—I exclude all evidence given to the Welsh Affairs Committee by Professor Welsh Conservative MPs from this criticism—that they Richard Wyn Jones? The professor said that it was would be better off with an English Parliament, without “hard to imagine” how the reduction number of Welsh Welsh or Scottish Members of Parliament, and that MPs could have a does a great disservice to the Conservative party because “huge impact in terms of the Welsh voice in Westminster, particularly both in Wales and Scotland it is still a powerful political because, on the whole, Welsh MPs do not behave en masse as a force. We should all join together to ensure that Welsh single block.” MPs, whether they be Conservative, Plaid Cymru, Liberal Democrat or Labour, can express their views in this Paul Murphy: I believe that we do behave en masse in place. representing Welsh interests in the House of Commons. Another issue is that Welsh-speaking constituencies The fact that the Welsh Affairs Committee unanimously will find themselves with less representation in this and across parties agreed on the matters raised by the Parliament than they would have done under the current hon. Member for Monmouth shows that there are system of the 40 MPs. Again, try to explain that to an many occasions when Welsh Members come together in English Member of Parliament. All of us know how the interests of Wales. I do not know the professor, but I important it is that Welsh-speaking Wales is represented do know that he is not a Member of Parliament, has here, not least because there are issues affecting the not served in the House of Commons and does not Welsh language that are still dealt with in Parliament. know what can happen here. These people can have their academic discourses and theses and the rest of it, Roger Williams: I agree that we should have had the but the practicalities of politics are such that Welsh opportunity to debate this matter in full—whether it be influence can be exercised here only by Welsh Members on the Floor of the House, in a St David’s day debate or of Parliament. a Grand Committee debate. However, I am in disagreement with the right hon. Gentleman. When Welsh MPs come Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I thank my right together on a particular matter, it does not matter hon. Friend for giving way. He is giving a powerful whether we number 30 or 40. But if we started off with discourse on the importance of having a Welsh voice in 30 Welsh MPs, could we honestly argue to be increased Parliament. Does he agree that it is absurd for Government to 40? It seems to me that that argument just could not Members to talk about the importance of equal be made. representation across the UK and of reducing the number of MPs, while at the same time stuffing the House of Lords with their supporters? Paul Murphy: It will be the fewest number of Members of Parliament representing Wales since 1832. I am not Paul Murphy: That is because the Parliamentary Voting convinced that 30 is a sensible and reasonable representation, System and Constituencies Act 2010 was born in a which is what every country must have. I am not saying partisan way. Had it been dealt with like the legislation that each constituency should not be equally sized for reform of the House of Lords or other constitutional in terms of numbers, but an amendment was tabled in legislation, and a consensus arrived at, we would not the other place that sought to ensure that there was a have the present trouble. People simply see it as a means variation of 10% as opposed to 5%. A 10% variation of cutting the number of Welsh Members of Parliament. would, in many ways, have solved the problems to The chances are that more Labour MPs are likely to be which the hon. Member for Monmouth rightly referred cut than those of other parties—we do not know; it in terms of our geography, our values, and our rural could be the other way around—but we all ought to be seats. If we had had that flexibility, the distorted seats fighting for Welsh Members of Parliament to have their that we will end up with in Wales would not have say strengthened in a United Kingdom Parliament rather happened. than weakened. In conclusion, I do not want to see the Conservative and Unionist party becoming the Conservative and Alun Michael: Does my right hon. Friend not find it Separatist party, and I am saying that as a Labour ironic that the capacity of Welsh Members of Parliament Member of Parliament. There is an onus on all of us to work together and speak with one voice was illustrated who represent Welsh constituencies to ensure that the through the calling of a meeting—the first for many Government listen and that we are not heading towards years—of the Welsh parliamentary party specifically an English Parliament as opposed to a United Kingdom because the Secretary of State was not listening to one. Welsh MPs speaking with one voice? Does he not think that there is very strong representation and strong teamwork 3.3 pm across Welsh MPs and that the analysis quoted by the Minister is simply misplaced? Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. Like my Paul Murphy: I entirely agree with my right hon. right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), Friend and that was why a meeting of the Welsh I pay tribute to the Welsh Affairs Committee for being parliamentary party was called. the only Committee that has debated this issue in some depth. I also pay tribute to its Chair for his succinct and Roger Williams rose— articulate speech. I agree with many of the things that he has said. Paul Murphy: I will give way in a moment. I just want The most important thing that has come out of this to finish my point regarding the consensus among report is the haste with which all this is being done. Welsh Members, including Welsh Conservative Members. Sometimes, when I sit in the House, it feels like policies 151WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 152WH

[Chris Evans] I was working with my predecessor when the Government of Wales Act 2006 was debated. The 2006 Act stated are being plucked out of the air. Under discussion is the that Assembly seats must be co-terminus with Westminster biggest constitutional change in a generation. It is far seats, but that has suddenly been thrown out of the bigger than the Welsh Assembly and the foundation of window. It is as if the Government are saying, “Okay, the Scottish Parliament. However, we, as Members of we will just decouple.” Where we have an Assembly Parliament, have not had the opportunity to debate it. Member, the imperative is to build a close relationship We have not had pre-legislative scrutiny, a Joint Committee with them and to work on issues such as health and to consider the change or, as my right hon. Friend has education, but that will go completely out of the window. said, any consensus. We will have a situation in which people will say, “Who A myth has been perpetuated by the coalition ever is my Assembly Member? Who do I pass this on to?” since the expenses scandal. There is a belief that all This seems to be—for want of a better word—absolutely politicians are wrong to want to come into public life. crackers. Suddenly, we are plucking solutions out of the air. It We have already talked about the democratic deficit. has been said that we need to change our electoral Despite the fact that Wales represents 5% of the UK system and that we need to work harder. We have no population, its constituencies will be reduced by 20%. empirical evidence on how hard MPs work, yet we are Wales will send 25 fewer MPs here. Northern Ireland told that we need to work harder. Now we are told that will lose some 17%; Scotland will lose 9%; and England, people want fewer MPs, but such a change will fail which is Tory dominated, will lose 5.5%. We have to ask without proper scrutiny and sufficient time. ourselves why Wales has been disproportionately targeted. I do not mind debating constitutional issues. When I wonder whether it is because we have a history of we talk about the West Lothian question, it always sending back Labour Members of Parliament. Will comes down to one thing—we are looking at it from the Swindon, which has two Tory MPs, be reduced to just wrong point of view. We are looking at it from the point one seat? Will other places, such as Cheltenham and of view that Welsh MPs cannot vote on health or Gloucester—I know Cheltenham quite well—be reduced transport issues in Wales. If we use that logic, we could to one seat? Will Tewkesbury, the Cotswolds and ask why London MPs are allowed to vote on policing Cheltenham, which have three Tory MPs, be one seat? issues when policing is devolved in London. It does not I wonder. We wait and see. make sense. When we talk about any future devolution or any constitutional change, we have to consider the Roger Williams: Cheltenham is a Liberal Democrat issue from the basis of the whole of the nation. We have seat. to consider how devolution fits into the regions. However, we are not talking about that. This place is not the Chris Evans: Sorry, I did not say Cheltenham. I English Parliament, and it has never been the English should correct the hon. Gentleman. Cheltenham is a Parliament. This place is the Parliament of Great Britain. Liberal Democrat seat, but I said that the Cotswolds, When we talk about English votes for English MPs on Tewkesbury and Gloucester were Tory seats. English-only matters, we have to ask ourselves where in the constitution it says that this is the English Parliament. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): I am obviously an Perhaps I am being cynical, but the way in which this is English MP, but I am proud to have spent most of my being rushed through makes me feel that this is not a adult life in Wales, and I certainly consider myself a constitutional change, but political gerrymandering of Conservative Unionist MP. Wrexham, where I brought the highest kind. It is based not on any rational argument, my children up, has an electorate of 51,000, but Redditch, but on a policy of one size fits all. which I represent, has an electorate of nearly 70,000. Does the hon. Gentleman think that that is fair? We have already heard about rural areas, but let us look at some of the constituencies in detail. The old Chris Evans: That argument has been brought out all constituency of Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, which is the way through. To use the American example, however, now Dwyfor Meirionnydd—the right hon. Member for we do not hear people in California, which has 37 million Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) in not in his seat electors, saying that they deserve more senators than at the moment—will probably be unmanageable. Wyoming, which has 544,000. Montgomeryshire will be huge. Does that mean more The other thing about Welsh constituencies is that money will be provided for the Members of Parliament they are different. The Cotswolds, Tewkesbury and who will represent those two constituencies? I do not Cheltenham are all flat, so they can be put together. In think so. Where did this idea come from? Wales is not a Wales, however, we have rivers and mountains. As somebody special case, yet Orkney and Shetland and the constituencies once said to me at a Labour party grand committee covering the Western Isles of Scotland and Isle of meeting, “Islwyn was not created. It was given to us by Wight were pulled out? Why were they pulled out? We God.” I do not know whether that is true. just do not know. Paul Murphy: That is true of all our constituencies. Nick Smith: Lib Dem seats. Chris Evans: Yes. Chris Evans: That is cynical, but it is what we have to Big mountains separate Blaenau Gwent think. from neighbouring constituencies.

Geraint Davies: Conservative seats. Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): Has the hon. Gentleman ever been to other parts of England, where there are Chris Evans: Sorry, Isle of Wight is a Tory seat. mountains and rivers? The same argument could apply 153WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 154WH to those places. We have huge constituencies. North Let us be in no doubt that the reason why the UK Yorkshire, for example, has constituencies that meet the Government have introduced their proposals to cut the criteria that he has described, but they are twice the size numbers of MPs from 650 to 600 is purely partisan. In of many constituencies in Wales. Why is that different? nullifying the Celtic bias, the Prime Minister’s aim is clearly to enhance his electoral prospects at the next Chris Evans: The point that I was coming to is that we general election. We should ignore the spin surrounding have local links in Wales—communities are linked to equal- sized constituencies: if they undermined the each other and have common bonds. The hon. Gentleman Tory party’s electoral prospects, they would not be on represents an English constituency, but if he wanted to the table. discuss the point, he should have made a speech. I must admit that it is strange, as some Labour Members said in their contributions, that these changes Geraint Davies: Does my hon. Friend agree that are being introduced by the Conservative and Unionist Wales is, in essence, a small country next to a very large party. Reducing Welsh representation in this place by a country that is 15 times its size? If we want a sustainable quarter will inevitably severely undermine the influence Union and a respect agenda, we should remember that of Wales in this Parliament. The Westminster Parliament Wales has always had slightly more MPs than England. represents four distinct nations, and its make-up has That is the fundamental point: tearing up the Union is always reflected that fact to avoid it becoming dominated the cost of gerrymandering a sustainable Conservative by English representatives. Central Lobby, with its murals Government. Wales is a small country sitting next to a of the patron saints—St David, St Andrew, St Patrick big one, so we should have a few more MPs. That is all and St George—is a reminder of the historical role this is about. played by the Westminster Parliament. Chris Evans: That leads on to my final point about Many Members will undoubtedly be surprised to the policy overall. Perhaps I can look at the issue from a hear me make such points, because there will be no wider angle and step outside Wales for a moment, if Welsh representation here at all if Plaid Cymru’s ultimate you will allow me, Mr Davies. We are a nation state, and aim is achieved. However, as long as so many key what seriously worries me about this exercise is that it is political fields remain reserved, there is a role and a based on figures rather than communities. In that respect, need in this place for Welsh MPs, and particularly I am glad that I followed my right hon. Friend the Welsh Plaid Cymru MPs. [Interruption.] I am glad to Member for Torfaen, because he knows about the situation see some Members nodding. in Northern Ireland, where wards and constituencies must strike a fine balance and could cause major problems. David T. C. Davies: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman However, we have had no scrutiny of any kind, so these for making such an important point, which I fully agree issues have not come out. with. For as long as Wales remains part of the United The coalition has hung on to its belief that people Kingdom, he and other Welsh Members should of distrust politicians, but when people voted no for AV, course be allowed to take their places here. In the same they dispelled the myth that it was constitutional reform way, people who did not agree with devolution or the that we needed; we actually need to reconnect with Welsh Assembly, and who still have questions about it, people. Forcing through the proposed changes will mean have every right to sit in the Welsh Assembly if they are more disconnect and people being more removed from elected to it. politics, and that is a dangerous game. I therefore finish by paying tribute, as I did at the beginning, to the Welsh Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful for that, and I will Affairs Committee, which is the only Committee to stick the hon. Gentleman’s endorsement in my next have looked at this issue properly. leaflet. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) I am not against reducing Welsh representation in the (PC) rose— House of Commons as a point of principle. However, any reductions should take place only after the devolution Philip Davies (in the Chair): Order. Two more Members of political fields of responsibility. I do not, therefore, are seeking to catch my eye. I intend to call the Front-Bench accept the argument that the successful March referendum spokesmen at 3.30 pm, so if Members could show some justifies reductions in the number of Welsh MPs. The restraint, that would be helpful. referendum did not devolve extra fields of power, but merely secured sovereignty over currently devolved fields. If we were to have the same devolved fields of power as 3.14 pm Scotland, however, I would see the case for reducing the Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) number of Welsh MPs. (PC): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, For the remainder of my speech, I would like to Mr Davies. The hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) concentrate on the UK Government’s proposed Calman is always a tough act to follow. I was hoping to make a process for Wales and its constitutional implications. I hard-hitting speech, but I fear that my contribution seriously hope that the Wales Office is not proposing a might be somewhat timid in comparison with his. I rerun of the Scottish experiment, which was a stitch-up want to concentrate on two specific issues. The first, on by the Unionist parties and has now backfired spectacularly. which all parties in the House have concerns, and which The government of Scotland Bill that followed the has been the focus of the debate so far, is the number of Scottish Calman process lies in tatters because of the MPs who serve the people of Wales in Westminster. The Sewel convention. There is no way the majority Scottish second is the opportunities that the proposed Calman National party Government in Scotland will accept a Cymru process may offer democracy in Wales. Bill that totally ignores their views on the way forward 155WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 156WH

[Jonathan Edwards] and my preference for developing democracy in Wales is a plural, proportional system. I will get to that point for their country. I therefore hope that the Calman when I conclude my speech. Cymru process will be fair, open, transparent and free During the passage of the 2011 Act, I welcomed the from political influence. clauses that decoupled the Westminster and National To date, much of the debate surrounding the Welsh Assembly boundaries; it was common sense to include Calman has been about finance. The Holtham report is them in the Act. My colleague, the hon. Member for unlikely to be bettered, so the best course of action for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), had a sparring session on the UK Government would be to accept its detailed BBC Radio Wales in the very early hours of Sunday recommendations. Reform of the Barnett formula should morning on that issue. The Labour party was vehemently be a precondition for any further financial changes, but opposed to the decoupling; its preference was for I am concerned at the noises that have come from the coterminosity. From the point of view of organising Treasury to date. That will be a major challenge for the local party structures, I can see the argument. They new Welsh Government, and all their rhetoric about would be a total nightmare to organise locally with standing up for our country will be seriously tested on different boundaries for the Westminster and Welsh this single issue. elections. However, I welcome the fact that the Calman Cymru process will reopen debate about the Government of Nick Smith: It is not only about party organisation. Wales Act 2006. In particular, we will have the opportunity Coterminosity is important for talking to borough to revisit the gerrymandering carried out under the Act councillors and chief executives, and the managers of by the then Labour Government in Westminster. The local health services and housing associations. It helps section introduced in 2006 to prohibit candidates from us to make an impact as MPs with local civic society. standing in regional lists and constituencies should be Surely we should keep that. overturned. A similar ban exists only in Ukraine, and it is high time that we in Wales joined the rest of the Jonathan Edwards: I do not disagree with the hon. democratic world. Gentleman. Coterminosity is favourable. The Calman Cymru process is also an opportunity to Given that, as a point of principle, Labour is opposed revisit the electoral make-up of the National Assembly to decoupling and the Tories to PR, one way to achieve in time for the fifth Assembly. My personal preference consensus might be to re-adjust the National Assembly would be for us to increase the membership of the boundaries to be coterminous with the new Westminster National Assembly to 80, as advocated by Lord Elystan- boundaries. Such a reform would have the added benefit Morgan. Those 80 Members should be elected by a of being more proportional. Diolch yn fawr iawn. single transferable vote system. When the government of Wales Bill, which follows the Welsh Calman process, comes to this place, I will call for amendments to that 3.23 pm effect, unless such provisions are already included in the Bill. Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): I am grateful for the opportunity to comment briefly on one or two of the issues that have come up in the debate, Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Does the hon. which has revealed the fragile nature of our discussions Gentleman think that there is any appetite in Wales for about democratic arrangements. yet another prolonged period of navel-gazing? It is a mistake for proportions and figures during a general election to be the only issues that determine Jonathan Edwards: I am grateful for that intervention, the size of constituencies or which constituencies are but we have the Calman process and, following questioning represented. In the House, we are referred to by our last Wednesday, it was confirmed that such issues will constituencies rather than by our personal names, and be debated. The Bill will be an opportunity to address that reflects the fact that we are accountable to an grievances that some of us have with the current settlement. identifiable constituency of people; that is where the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), in making the case for single transferable Paul Murphy: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s vote or another proportional system, misses the point. arguments with great interest. I agree with some of He made a powerful case, with which I agree, about them, but I am doubtful about the appetite in Wales—or the different countries of the UK being represented the UK, for that matter—for introducing any other disproportionately to reflect another element in democratic systems of proportional representation. It is daft to accountability. That is something that we ignore at our argue that the overwhelming vote against AVwas because peril. people wanted STV. People want a first-past-the-post system, so would it not be a good idea to have 60 or If we look merely at arithmetic and not at accountability, 80 AMs elected, two per constituency, by first past the we will end up with the sort of situation that we have in post? the European elections. MEPs already represented large constituencies—the size of something in the order of seven or eight Westminster constituencies—and they Jonathan Edwards: I totally disagree with that, of now represent people in the whole of Wales. By and course. When the Parliamentary Voting System and large, following an election, more or less the same Constituencies Act 2011 was a Bill before the House, I people are returned—albeit in a different order, so argued for the referendum to be held on STV, not AV. someone is higher up the list—and the situation is the That was about a vote for the Westminster Parliament, same with the regional lists for the Welsh Assembly. 157WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 158WH

It is important to look at the relationship between 3.29 pm MPs and AMs. One or two hon. Members have touched Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Davies, on that point. During the first period of the Assembly, for calling me. It is a pleasure to serve under your my AM, who stood down at the last election, was an chairmanship for the first time. incredibly close colleague because we served and were accountable to the same constituency; my hon. Friend I will start by saying that it is slightly unusual for me the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) made to speak on the Front Bench today, as I am following that point. As we have seen in Wales, it is difficult the precedent of the Minister when he was in my shoes, enough to ensure that the relationship between AMs as it were, in Opposition. Like me, he was a member of and MPs is adequate, strong and effective, because the Welsh Affairs Committee in Opposition. It is the many of our constituents do not know who has which Committee’s report that we are debating today and responsibility—they are not terribly interested; they therefore I can say to the hon. Member for Monmouth just want a response. An MP and an AM working (David T. C. Davies), who is the Chairman of the Welsh together can give very powerful representation in this Affairs Committee, that I add my support for the way place, and that is extremely important. that he chairs the Committee generally and particularly Accountability is an important part of democracy. for the way that he chaired it while this report was being Democracy cannot be served only by artificially constraining produced. He brought us to a point of considerable the number of electors. Of course there needs to be agreement across all parties and today he elucidated proportionality and a system needs to be as sensible as very well the arguments that we had during the weeks possible and as near to a norm as is practical, but it also that we debated the Bill. I was less certain about the needs to respect the nature of communities and democracy. transformation that he underwent during his speech In the reorganisation of local government in 1973, the into a shop steward for MPs from all parties. I certainly legislation referred to an important principle, which will not go so far as the hon. Member for Carmarthen was the starting point for building up the wards that East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) in putting the councillors represented. It was to look at how people hon. Gentleman’s commendations on my election literature. identify themselves and within what community, and to Nevertheless, the way in which he spoke up for MPs identify the wards and councils only as an aggregation today is very welcome. of the communities that the local people identified. The Bill represents what the Committee referred to as That principle should apply in constituency representation a “profound change” to the constitution of the UK too, but by and large it will go out of the window as the Parliament and particularly in respect of Wales, and we new constituencies are identified and developed for new have heard that spelled out in different ways by different parliamentary representation. Members today. Reasonable Members of Parliament On how to deal with the number of AMs, I argued for cannot argue with that conclusion, because any change a different arrangement from the one that the then that diminishes by fully 25% at a stroke the political Secretary of State, Ron Davies, brought forward, which representation of a country is a profound change. Any he had argued for in opposition. That system was the change that breaks a parliamentary protocol in respect one that we have—of 30 Members and top-up regional of the representation of one country in a Parliament arrangements. The disadvantage is that, in elections, that has been established for almost 200 years—as we more or less the same people are likely to be returned in heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen more or less the same order. (Paul Murphy), that protocol was established in the Great Reform Act of 1832—is a profound change. That Guto Bebb: Is not the real issue with the list system protocol established an over-representation, if you like, the fact that it is a closed list? At the recent Assembly for Wales, but it is an over-representation that is designed elections, electors in Wales could not even choose a to reflect the asymmetrical nature of the Union that we name from the list, but simply voted for a party. That is have between Wales, Scotland and England, and to a dereliction of democracy. offer some protection and insurance that the junior partner in that Union—that is, Wales—does not have Alun Michael: The alternative to that, which would its voice drowned out by the leviathan—that is, England also be simpler, would be regional lists by party; how —on its border. I believe that the changes that we are people voted in constituencies would determine who discussing potentially threaten the Union, and any such was elected. People are very confused about having to change is absolutely a profound change. vote a second time and they are not sure what they are One of the great disappointments for the Opposition voting for, although the hon. Gentleman will have been during the all-too-hasty passage of the Bill was the pleased to note that they overwhelmingly voted for the seeming inability of the Government to acknowledge Labour party across Wales. the arguments that many people from across the House—on I suggested a system of two Members per Westminster the Tory side as well as on the Opposition side—were constituency elected by alternative vote, which would making. For the Opposition’s part, I feel that we have given roughly the same degree of proportionality acknowledged that there is an important argument to as we have now, but retained the accountability to a be made about equality and fairness in representation constituency.I hope that we do not lose that accountability being observed and implemented, to the extent that that for Wales, that a method is found of ensuring that the is possible in representation between different constituencies. Assembly has the appropriate number of Members and We acknowledged that that is an important and long- that we do not lose for ever—even if we do lose it for a standing priority. short period—the coterminosity between Assembly and However, that is not the only consideration or priority Westminster constituencies. It is a strength of the system that ought to have been considered by the House. It that I want retained and, if we lose it for a period, was profoundly disappointing that the Government I want it to return as quickly as possible. singularly refused to acknowledge that there might be 159WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 160WH

[Owen Smith] hostile—they do not elect Conservative candidates—and economically dependent, which is the bit that really other considerations, and I suspect that we will hear worries me. There is an ugly spirit at the back of those something similar in a moment from the Minister. The concerns that Wales is getting more than it is due and principal one among those other considerations is the that Welsh needs are being over-accommodated, both importance of giving insulation and protection to the in terms of political representation and the economy. junior partner in this asymmetrical union that we have, and the corresponding danger of changing that balance Geraint Davies: Does my hon. Friend agree that there and the voice of Wales being singularly diminished in is a worrying and increasing number of Conservative Westminster. MPs who take the view that having separation of both The Committee’s report was quite prescient in giving Wales and Scotland from England would be a price warnings about those dangers. We have heard today worth paying to have a perpetual Conservative Government from my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris running England? Evans) that it was prescient in its warning that the changes being proposed could lead to a diminution of Owen Smith: I share some of the concern about that trust in politics among people. The Government told us issue. I do not think that my hon. Friend is overstating that the rationale for pursuing the Bill was, in many the case, because we have heard far too many noises off respects, to try to rebuild trust in politics, which we all from Conservative MPs that lead us to fear that many accept has been damaged in recent years. However, the of them think that breaking up the Union would be a Opposition fail to see how removing politicians further price worth paying. I certainly do not share that view from the electorate and increasing the gap between and I do not think that any Opposition Members do electors and elected will help to rebuild trust. If anything, either. a rational observation is that it is likely to do the reverse Another area that we have touched on today and that and increase people’s mistrust in politics, especially the Committee’s report was again prescient about is the when people look at these changes and understand—as impact on the National Assembly of the changes that we in the Opposition understand—that they are motivated are being proposed. During the passage of the Bill, we by a partisan rationale. were repeatedly told that breaking the link between The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr elections in constituencies in Wales for the National and my right hon. Friends the Members for Cardiff Assembly and elections for Westminster effectively meant South and Penarth (Alun Michael) and for Torfaen, that the National Assembly would be unaffected by the who are both former Secretaries of State for Wales, and Bill. However, it is only a couple of short weeks since indeed other Members have already discussed the next the Bill’s passage and already we have heard the Secretary point that I want to make; in particular, my right hon. of State for Wales, in response to a question put by the Friend the Member for Torfaen spoke with great power hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr in about it. It is that we are deeply concerned about the Welsh questions last week, entertain the notion that a impact that this change will have on the Union. Calman-style commission in Wales might look beyond Nationalist politicians, with their variable success at financial matters and indeed might look at the nature of the recent election, are undoubtedly emboldened in the elections to the National Assembly and the make-up some respects by the change that is being proposed. For of the electoral districts for the National Assembly. all that we hear the hon. Member for Carmarthen East That is worrying. It is looking like another broken and Dinefwr talk about the importance of representation promise from the Government if we are now going to in this place, I think that nationalist politicians are see the National Assembly being so directly impacted emboldened by the extent to which the Bill and some of by the Bill. the other things that we have discussed today are putting I ask the Minister to try to clarify today what was the debate about the Union at the top of the agenda. implied by the Secretary of State’s response to the hon. The Bill and the other issues that we have debated are Gentleman’s question last week. If the Minister is unable throwing into question the constitutional settlement to tell us exactly what that commission is going to look that we have understood for the last 200 years—indeed at, can he at least tell us whether it will look at alternatives 300 years—and challenging us to think about what we to the current voting system? The hon. Member for mean by the future of devolution, how Wales is to be Carmarthen East and Dinefwr slightly misrepresented represented and what balance is to be struck in the light me when he said that in our discussions last week I said of devolution. that we had to stick pretty much with what we have got. I agreed with the Minister when he said in an intervention I did not say that. What I said was that we certainly earlier that perhaps we had not fully thought through should not shift instantly if we are to consider these the implications of devolution. We now need to do that matters through 30 list members and 30 first-past-the-post and to think holistically about all of these issues instead members. The rejection of the alternative vote last week of doing what I fear is precisely the Government’s raises the question of whether we ought to look more intention, which is to look at them piecemeal and for seriously at first past the post and I think that there is party advantage. an opportunity for us to put other alternatives on the I share the concerns of my right hon. Friend the table, such as having 60 members, two per constituency, Member for Torfaen that, for all the Prime Minister’s in a first-past-the-post system. There might be a significant avowed intention to fight with every fibre of his being amount of agreement across the House for that as an for the Union, we are hearing far too much from alternative system. Conservative Back Benchers who are resentful of Wales. They are resentful of the different decisions that are Paul Murphy: My hon. Friend knows that I entirely being made in Wales and of what they perceive to be the agree with him on that issue. I hope, however, that parts of the UK, including Wales, that are both politically he, and the House, understand that any substantial 161WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 162WH constitutional changes to what the people voted for in one, and that was seen as being due, in part, to confusion. 1997 would require not just huge consensus but a Does the Minister agree that we should look more referendum. I hope that the Minister will indicate that closely at that, and learn lessons? understanding in his response. Mr Jones: We always need to learn the lessons of Owen Smith: That point is very well made, and I look electoral processes, and it is anticipated that the Electoral to the Minister to clarify it. We would certainly hope to Commission will issue its report on the conduct of the see it clarified under any possible Calman-style commission. polls in July this year. As far as I can see, the exercise My final point is a reflection of some of the remarks was carried out successfully and it proved wrong those made earlier. The contrast between the 2011 Act and who anticipated that the people of Wales would not, the constitutional changes that it portends and the like a well-known American President, be able to walk House of Lords draft Bill that we saw only this and chew gum at the same time. week could not be starker: pre-legislative scrutiny, the establishment of an independent commission, a Joint Jessica Morden: The referendum part of the election Committee, a draft Bill—a serious look at what will be was run by the Electoral Commission, so that body is a dramatic, radical and historic change to the governance conducting a review of its own administration of the of our country. election. Is that the right way forward? No less historic a change for Wales was the announcement, dealt with in eight scant days on the Floor Mr Jones: I would be very reluctant to call into of the House, of a quarter reduction in the number of question the integrity of the Electoral Commission. It is MPs from Wales. That measure was railroaded through the right body to report on electoral processes in this for what I fear were squalid, partisan and political country. reasons, and I am sure that the people outside this place will be concerned that the Government could apply a Paul Murphy: The 2011 Act provided for the referendum similarly high-handed gerrymandering approach to the to be held on the same day as elections for the Welsh potential changes to the National Assembly electoral Assembly and for local government in England. Does boundaries. the Minister think that the Deputy Prime Minister now believes that that was such a good idea after all? 3.41 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Mr Jones: I would be very loth to second-guess (Mr David Jones): May I, too, say what a huge pleasure anything that the Deputy Prime Minister might think. it is to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Davies? The focus of the Select Committee report was the I join other Members who have commended the Chairman Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, of the Welsh Affairs Committee, my hon. Friend the which is now an Act. I reiterate the point that was made Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), on securing throughout the Bill’s passage through Parliament: the the debate, and I pay tribute to the Committee’s work. principal thrust of the provision is to ensure fairness in As the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) our electoral system. I have heard what Opposition pointed out, I was a member of the Committee throughout Members have had to say about that, but it is inherently the previous Parliament. I know how important it is in unfair that the vote of an elector in one part of this scrutinising the role not only of the Wales Office but of country should carry greater weight—in some cases, other Whitehall Departments whose work touches on much greater weight—than that of an elector in another Wales. part of the country. The debate today is about the Select Committee’s The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) report on the implications for Wales of the Government’s made the point that he has made on previous occasions— constitutional reform proposals. I suggest that it is that the so-called Welsh vote has to be protected. I very something of an after-the-event debate—considerably much share the view of Professor Richard Wyn Jones, a after the event; the report was, of course, published as very distinguished academic whom I know, who says long ago as October last year, the Government’s reply that this situation is something that has grown up over was issued in January, and the Parliamentary Voting the years. In evidence to the Select Committee, he made System and Constituencies Bill, which was the focus of the interesting point that in 1543, when Welsh Members the report, was enacted some three months ago. of Parliament were first admitted to this place, the Nevertheless, it is useful to have the debate, if only to population of Wales was approximately 7% of the point out that some of the concerns highlighted in the combined population of England and Wales and Welsh report, such as the fact that holding a referendum and representation in terms of Members of Parliament was an Assembly election on the same day would be extremely also approximately 7%. He said that there: challenging, have proven to be unfounded. In fact, I “wasn’t any kind of formational deal that Wales should be think that everyone agrees that both those exercises in over-represented”. democracy were completed without undue difficulty. He added that since then there had been a “drift” in Welsh representation in this place. He went on to make Jessica Morden: It is true that the sky did not fall in, the fair point that in the scheme of things, it is hard to but it is also true that the jury is out on how the election see how a reduction from 6% to 5% of MPs could make was administrated. Election officers have told me that that much difference to Welsh representation here, there was a great deal of confusion. In my area, for particularly when it is borne in mind that the overall instance, there was an 80% turnout of postal votes for number of Members of Parliament will be reduced the first referendum and a 70% turnout for the second from 650 to 600. 163WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 164WH

[Mr David Jones] must touch on one or two points made by various right hon. and hon. Members, who I hope will forgive me if I Another important point that he made, and which I do not mention them by name. One important point put to the right hon. Member for Torfaen during his made by my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth contribution, is that Welsh Members of Parliament related to individual voter registration. It is certainly hardly behave as a bloc. I heard what the right hon. vital that as many people as possible register to vote and Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) are encouraged to do so. We feel that the move to had to say about the Welsh parliamentary party, but I individual registration is likely to increase the number have to say in all frankness that at that party’s most of people on the register. recent meeting, representation by Conservative Members We are trialling data matching throughout this year was rather light, underlining the fact that Welsh Members in several areas, including Cardiff. We are comparing of Parliament do not behave as some sort of single the electoral register with other public databases to find coherent body. those who are eligible to vote but missing from the register. The aim is to tackle under-registration among Alun Michael: I really do not understand why the specific groups. Minister makes that point, as it suggests an element of Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Will the Minister disengagement on the part of some Conservative MPs. give way? At that meeting, one of the Minister’s hon. Friends made a very constructive intervention, commenting Mr Jones: Yes, but this will be the last time. that the meeting had been more constructive and consensual Nick Smith: The Minister is right to emphasise the than he had expected. importance of promoting electoral registration. However, the registers for the coming parliamentary review will Mr Jones: The Member who made that point was the be based on the past year’s electoral registration numbers, only Member of the Conservative parliamentary party gathered before the important pilots that he mentioned. at the meeting—[Interruption.] I know that the right If the Government delayed, considered electoral registration hon. Gentleman is disappointed that more Conservative further and put resources into it, given the profound Members of Parliament did not attend, but that underlines changes that we are seeing, surely that would lead to a the fact that party politics, across the political divide, better result, because more people would be registered prevail just as much in Wales as in the rest of the and we could support more confidently the boundaries country. that we are debating. Mr Jones: The trial will continue throughout this Paul Murphy: The Minister quotes Professor Wyn year. The pilots will enable us to see how effective the Jones all the time, but he fails to remember that Speaker’s data matching is and which data sets are most useful in Conference after Speaker’s Conference indicated that improving the accuracy of the register. The chair of the there were special circumstances to ensure proper Electoral Commission said in her evidence to the Select representation for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform in the United Kingdom Parliament. Why does he think, that introducing individual registration will enable the for example, that there are separate boundary commissions commission to create focused programmes to improve for Scotland and Wales? They are separate countries in registration rates among specific communities. That is separate circumstances. I think that the professor is on particularly important because, as the hon. Member for his own on this one. Swansea West (Geraint Davies) said, some sections of the community are certainly under-represented, and we Mr Jones: He is not, because I happen to agree with must make an all-out effort to get as many of those him, which is precisely why I quote him so extensively. individuals on the register as possible. We must return to the fundamental point: it is inherently Nick Smith: Will the Minister give way? and conspicuously unfair that a vote cast in Aberdeen, for example, may have a different weight from a vote Mr Jones: I am afraid not. I have been quite generous cast in Aberystwyth. The Act proposes to introduce the already. The future of the Union was mentioned. It is element of fairness. Nevertheless, to a large extent— big stuff for me to cover in the next two minutes. Geraint Davies: Will the Minister give way? Paul Murphy: Does the Minister not accept that for Mr Jones: No, I am afraid not. I hope that the hon. nearly 150 years, his party agreed with the point that I Gentleman will forgive me. am making? The Conservatives agreed that not just Scotland and Wales but large rural areas should have Geraint Davies: The issue is time. proper representation. What has happened in the past Mr Jones: It is, I am afraid. I think that most of us year goes completely against what the Conservative and in this Chamber—with the honourable, or possibly Unionist party has said for 150 to 200 years. dishonourable, exception of the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)— Mr Jones: It is fair to say that the Conservative party are Unionists, and we do not want the Union of this has evolved considerably over the past 150 years, as no country damaged. Therefore, the West Lothian question doubt has the Labour movement in this country. If we must be addressed, and the Government are committed were set in aspic, we would never make any progress. to doing so during this Parliament. As I said, the Act will introduce fairness into the As the hon. Member for Pontypridd said when agreeing system. I am conscious that the Chairman of the Select with something that I said earlier, perhaps we are doing Committee will wind up this debate, but I feel that I things the wrong way round—perhaps the exercise should 165WH Constitutional Reform (Wales)19 MAY 2011 Constitutional Reform (Wales) 166WH have taken place before devolution was instituted in this 3.57 pm country—but nevertheless, the issue must be addressed. I can think of nothing that would do more to endanger David T. C. Davies: I am grateful for the opportunity the Union than to perpetuate a sense of grievance on to wind up. If you will forgive me, Mr Davies, I will skip the part of certain Members of this Parliament and the usual format of trying to sum up what everyone has certain large sections of this community about a perceived just said. lack of fairness in how they are treated. The debate was about to get very interesting. There is an issue of fairness and of ensuring that all votes count, Owen Smith: Will the Minister give way? and the Committee accepted that in its report. What concerned us was the speed with which things were Mr Jones: I shall not, as I have little time. I am sure being done and the possible consequences of doing that the hon. Gentleman will understand. Over- them so quickly while reducing the number of MPs; it representation is a problem, and introducing fairness is would have been feasible to create equal constituencies a good way to start to address it. without reducing the number of Members of Parliament. To conclude, this debate has been an interesting It is not entirely fair to suggest that this is gerrymandering. exercise—but essentially a historical one, as I said earlier. It will certainly advantage the Conservative party, just The Select Committee has published its report, but as it advantaged the Labour party to keep the status since then, the caravan has moved on. As I said earlier, quo for the last 15 years and to create a Welsh Assembly the AV referendum was held with little difficulty, as far that was always likely to be dominated by the Labour as we can establish, and we must now look to the future. party or a combination of left-wing parties. That has The Boundary Commission’s exercise is continuing, prevented Conservatives in Wales from enjoying a and it will result in provisional proposals in September Conservative-run health service or education system, this year and a final report to the Secretary of State by although it has not prevented Labour MPs from writing October 2013. to English Ministers to tell them how the health service The new parliamentary constituencies will be in place and education system in England should be run. That is by the time of the next general election, and appropriate bound to cause a grievance among English MPs. arrangements will be made for the next Assembly election in 2016. All proposals will be taken into consideration— I think that most of us here want to remain part of the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr the Union. If we do, it behoves us to remember that we made an interesting suggestion, as did the hon. Member have responsibilities as well. We cannot simply go on for Pontypridd—before Assembly constituencies are pouring out comments about the English doing this or determined. that, constantly ragging the English nation and sending Members of Parliament over to vote and speak on I reiterate that the fundamental issue addressed by issues that are decided entirely differently in Wales the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies without expecting some reaction. There will always be Act 2011 is fairness. consequences. Nick Smith: Will the Minister give way? The Union is a fragile thing. I welcome the fact that so many Members here, including me, share a commitment Mr Jones: I regret that I will not. The constitutional to it and work in an honest and open way, but some reforms introduced by the Government will ensure that Members do not. They have a right to a different point fairness is embedded in the system, which should be as of view, but I think that all of us want England, Wales, welcome to the people of Wales as it is to the people of Scotland and Northern Ireland to work closely together, every other part of this United Kingdom. and I take some comfort in that. 167WH 19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 168WH

Severn Crossings Toll because I presume that it would have been up to the Welsh Assembly Government to negotiate the rate directly [Relevant documents: Third Report from the Welsh Affairs with SRC. I am not sure how far down the line the Committee, Session 2010-2011, HC 506, and the Government negotiations went. It would have been feasible, but it response, HC 837.] would have been a challenging proposition. Sadly, it will not come to pass, because of the efforts of the hon. 3.59 pm Lady’s party. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Everyone seems to be leaving the Chamber, which is sad because Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): The very few issues cause more rows in pubs and constituency point is that the Welsh Assembly Government had no surgeries in south Wales than the Severn bridge. You locus or power to set anything. These things are set by might expect me to declare an interest at this point, the UK Parliament, which cannot be changed now. Mr Davies, but one of the bits of pub trivia that came Surely the Government can announce, however, not out of our inquiry is that I do not need to do so, that we can change the toll now, but that in 2017 the toll because neither of the Severn bridges starts or ends in will go down to £1. If they did that, it would trigger my constituency. One ends in the constituency of Newport inward investment now, not then, because people would East, and the old Severn bridge starts and ends entirely plan for the future. They could establish their business in England before joining the Wye bridge. It would, now in south Wales, so that after 2017 their costs would therefore, be difficult for some of the Members who go down. That is what the Government should do. have left the Chamber to demand that the old Severn bridge be partly administered by the Welsh Assembly Government in Wales, because it does not actually David T. C. Davies: Once again, the hon. Gentleman come into Wales at all. has anticipated some of my comments. The issue for all of us is the price. It has confounded Before I turn to 2017, we should have a quick discussion us in constituency surgeries throughout south Wales about the impact on the economy. There is, as the hon. and the M4 corridor. It is worth setting out some of the Gentleman will recall, mixed evidence about this. There background. The second Severn crossing was built by a is no hard evidence that the current level of the tolls is consortium of four companies, which became Severn having a detrimental impact on the economy. Let me River Crossing. Not only did they build the second quickly add, however, that there is plenty of anecdotal Severn crossing, but they took on the debt of the old evidence, which most of us would accept, particularly in bridge, which amounted to about £450 million. The relation to areas such as haulage and tourism. I worked deal was that they could collect just under £1 billion, extensively in the haulage industry and the situation which was linked to inflation, and that, once that money is not all bad, because a haulage company in Wales had been collected, the bridge would revert to public competing for business that is local to south Wales has ownership. At present, that is expected to happen in an advantage over an English company in Avonmouth, around 2017. which would find it harder to compete. Similarly, shopkeepers in towns such as Chepstow might be concerned It became clear to us during the course of our inquiry that, if we got rid of the Severn bridge tolls, it would that, no matter how angry we might get over the level of lead to even more people crossing over and going to the tolls and no matter what impact we might think it Cribbs Causeway, when the current numbers are already has on the economy, there is very little that any of us, causing a problem. including the Minister, can do about it. This is a matter not of the Minister deciding what he wants to set the Having said all that, I think that there is an impact on toll at for any given year, but of straightforward contract the economy. I do not think that it is as bad as some law that would be backed up by the courts. The deal was people have suggested, but there is a negative impact. struck in 1992 between the then Government and private To give some evidence for that, I remind Members that companies, and there is no flexibility in it whatsoever. the previous Government froze the Humber crossing tolls because they felt that the level of those tolls would Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Was the hon. have made the impact of the economic downturn worse. Gentleman as surprised as I was to see the Welsh It is sad that, having decided to do that on the Humber, Conservatives pledge during the Assembly elections to the previous Government did not feel that they could freeze the tolls immediately? make the same commitment to the River Severn. If any Opposition Members want to tell me why Wales was David T. C. Davies: I must admit that that was a discriminated against in that fashion, I would be more surprise to me. It would, of course, have been feasible to than happy to hear their comments. do it, but a Conservative Government in the Welsh What we need is hard evidence so that we can put a Assembly—which was, sadly, not to be—would have proposal for 2017 to the Government. I welcome the fact had to pay back all the money to Severn River Crossing. that the Welsh Assembly Government, who do wonderful That would have been a significant amount of money. I things on occasions—they are not all bad; like all am not sure whether the policy applied to heavy goods things, they have advantages as well as disadvantages—are vehicles—I believe that it applied just to cars—but it conducting an in-depth assessment of the impact of the would still have been significant. The point is that SRC current level of tolls on the economy. They will hope to could not simply have been told to freeze the tolls get evidence from the Department for Transport. It was without compensation being paid, because its shareholders our strong recommendation that the DFT work with would have had every right to take the Welsh Assembly the Welsh Assembly Government on this and offer Government to court. There would have been some them every assistance and co-operation, and I very practical difficulties in implementing that policy, much hope that it does. 169WH Severn Crossings Toll19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 170WH

Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman I understand that the current plan for the next five years has said that the Labour Government did not act on after 2017 is that the tolls will continue at the current these issues. He might not remember this—it was a long level in real terms and that the money will be set aside time ago—but 20 years ago I served in the Committee for a sinking fund. that considered the Severn Bridges Act 1992. The Welsh To date, no one has even talked to SRC about who is Affairs Committee report says that the deal that was going to man the toll booths or do the maintenance. It struck in 1991 was a poor one. One of the reasons why surprises us that more work has not taken place and was that it could not easily be changed. That, as much that there is not greater clarity about what is going to as anything else, is the real reason why we are in the happen. Certainly, at some point, the bridge will be in situation in which we are in today. public ownership, both bridges will be paid for and a large profit will be being made by someone. However, it David T. C. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman has far is not being made at the moment and, in fact, the more knowledge of what happened in 1991 than me. evidence suggests that SRC will not make that big a However, if we had asked for a more advantageous and profit. SRC’s shareholders are not a load of people in flexible Bill from our point of view, I presume that SRC top hats somewhere in the City of London; they are would have asked for more than £1 billion. I was not anyone who happens to have a private-sector pension. party to the negotiations, but I imagine that it would We often forget that when we talk disparagingly about not have simply rolled over and given way that easily—I shareholders. do not know. What I know is that it is all up for grabs At some point in the next 10 years, a large sum of after 2017 or thereabouts. It is important, first of all, money will be being made from what is basically a tax that we have hard evidence about the impact on the on the people of south Wales and the west country of local area. England, which is not acceptable. We have a right to The hon. Member for Swansea East— know what is going to happen and to absolute transparency, so that when the bridge becomes the Government’s Geraint Davies: West. We have not had the boundary property, we can open the books and see how much is changed yet. being used to maintain both bridges and how much is simply going back into Government coffers. We could David T. C. Davies: I apologise. The hon. Member for then put aside some money for future works. Swansea West (Geraint Davies) made a point about the I want to squash a couple of myths that are prevalent potential level of the toll after 2017. I think that he will in the pubs of Monmouthshire and possibly elsewhere. agree that it was a back-of-the-envelope calculation, The first myth is that the whole thing is owned by the and I am sure that it can be corrected. I shall address French Government and that the money will all go back the figures to which he has alluded. The current annual to France. I do not know where that came from, but it is revenue from all the tolls is about £76 million a year. obviously completely incorrect. The second myth that The current cost of maintaining the bridge is £15 million. has persistently dogged us over the past few years in I estimate, therefore—this is purely a back-of-the-envelope Monmouthshire is that the old Severn crossing is falling calculation—that it would be feasible to levy the toll at down and at some point will be closed. We have found about £1.50 and still be able to maintain both bridges. absolutely no evidence for that either, and we are assured Obviously, there may be other factors that the Welsh that that is not the case. Affairs Committee has not been made aware of. We look forward to finding out a little more about The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport what will happen on the happy day when the bridge (Mike Penning): Will my hon. Friend give way? goes back into public ownership and ceases to be paid for. We also look forward to a day when the tolls can David T. C. Davies: I suspect that the Minister is perhaps be set at a level that is fair, that enables the going to make me aware of a few of those factors. I taxpayer not to lose out because the bridges will be accept that we may want to put money aside for a future maintained and that is beneficial to all of us who live bridge or for future major works to be carried out on and work in south Wales. one of the bridges. I invite the Minister to confirm, however, that it would be possible to set the toll at a 4.13 pm significantly lower level than its current one and still be able to maintain both bridges in good working order. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): It is good to see the Minister here to respond to the debate. I thought Mike Penning: I do not want to pre-empt in anyway that his evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee was my later comments, but my hon. Friend may notice that frank and that he seemed very engaged in the matter. As I am not a Treasury Minister. Treasury Ministers do not someone who has been talking about the Severn bridges do things on the back of a fag packet. Whatever we do for some time, I appreciate that. must be evidence based and correctly calculated all the Like the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. way through. We are not going to rule anything out or Davies), I obviously have a strong constituency interest anything in. It will be very much a Treasury matter, as in sorting out the issues surrounding the Severn bridges. well as one for the Department for Transport. I commend the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he chairs the Welsh Affairs Committee and for deciding David T. C. Davies: I appreciate that clarification. that this should be one of the first inquiries following However, we are about five or six years away at most the election. The evidence that the Committee has received from the estimated date of handover. By that time, I backs up what I have heard from my constituents for would expect people in the Minister’s Department or many years, which is that the crossings are too expensive, the Treasury to be thinking about what we will do next. inflexible and inconvenient. 171WH Severn Crossings Toll19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 172WH

[Jessica Morden] is very restrictive and that the Secretary of State’s powers are constrained by that. However, where there’s a will, As I said in a Westminster Hall debate last year, until there’s a way. I still want the Government to pursue the very recently people could not pay by credit or debit issue of a toll freeze. I took the Minister at his word card, and they cannot pay online or travel off peak. when he said it is difficult, although as we referred to There are no concessions for people who live locally. Yet earlier, there are people in his party who see the matter the tolls continue to rise year on year, even though the slightly differently. service is outdated. I do not apologise for raising the On 6 April, which was just a few weeks after the matter again because, although Severn River Crossing Minister gave evidence to us, during the Assembly has a responsibility to its shareholders—as has been elections, the Welsh Conservatives pledged that mentioned—I feel a responsibility to my constituents, “a Conservative Assembly Government will freeze Severn Bridge who are the customers. I would like Severn River Crossing Tolls cars at their current level. The freeze will be brought in to pay a little more attention to the customers. immediately.” As an aside, there was no mention of business vehicles, Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I, too, congratulate which has not gone down particularly well. I am genuinely the Chair of the Committee, the hon. Member for bemused by that. Has the Minister committed to doing Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), on covering the topic, that or do the Welsh Conservatives just not know that which is certainly important to my constituents. I want the bridges are not devolved and that there are contract to take up my hon. Friend’s point about a permanent limitations? I would be grateful for an answer on that later. system not yet being in place for credit card payments. It seems mad that, in 2011, there is not yet a permanent David T. C. Davies: Presumably, if the hon. Lady and system in place for people to pay their toll with a credit I were fortunate enough to win the lottery, we could ask card. That is absolutely bonkers. If someone goes to the Jim Clune if we could pay for everyone to have a toll bridge on a Friday evening, there are massive queues. freeze. Although the matter is not devolved, there would Often people arrive there and they do not have enough have been nothing to stop the Welsh Conservatives cash. That has happened to me on my way home. I have from doing that had they formed a Government. Sadly, not had enough cash and I had to get off at the service they did not, but maybe next time. station beforehand to get some. Getting cash in that way can cost money, as people might have to use one of Jessica Morden: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his those machines that charge. Would it not be much intervention. Apparently the Assembly would have had easier if commuters, hauliers and others could use a to pay £29 million to Severn River Crossing. I am loth credit card easily to cross the Severn bridge? to take him up on his offer to commit to paying that if we win the lottery, just in case. Philip Davies (in the Chair): Order. I ask for interventions I would like the tolls to be frozen and greatly reduced to be brief. when the bridges come back into public ownership in 2017. I fully support the Committee’s assertion that the Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for his toll could be reduced to a fifth of its current level to intervention. There is no permanent solution to that at approximately £1.50, while allowing the crossings to the moment. I travelled over the bridge last Thursday remain self-financing. We recommend that the Government night, and although I believe that a temporary measure should seek to reduce the level of the toll at the earliest is in place, there is still no permanent fixture. I am sure opportunity. the Minister will correct me later if I am wrong on that. In the meantime, I want the Minister to address some I will move on to that issue later. of my parochial concerns. On car sharing, commuters The Committee heard anecdotal evidence about the who share a car cannot share the TAG. I was under the economic impact of the tolls on businesses and commuters, impression that that issue had been sorted out some and it welcomed the Welsh Assembly’s commissioning years ago and dealt with by Severn River Crossing. an assessment of the economic impact of the bridge’s However, it appears that it has not. Will the Minister operation. The Government response refers to new please pursue that with the company in the interests of business investment in Wales. I want to add my own cutting congestion? We are urging people to car share, anecdotal evidence. Haulage companies in my constituency, so we ought to be making it easier. and I suspect in the constituency of my hon. Friend the On off-peak tariffs for business, one issue that businesses Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith), are being have always raised with me, which is an extremely good severely impacted by the tolls, as the charge is not borne point, is more flexible pricing. Effectively, off-peak travel by companies just over the bridge. For example, Owens for business would offer incentives to travel at certain Road Services is a long-standing Welsh company with a times of the day and night. That would reduce congestion, base in Newport. It represents 1% of the total heavy save emissions and save companies at a time when they goods vehicle traffic on the crossing and pays £200,000 are struggling. a year. Toll increases keep coming off its bottom line. May I also ask the Government at some stage to The Welsh logistics industry is paying a charge that is examine the issue of a reduction in tolls for people who not paid by competitors in England. I speak weekly to live locally? As someone said earlier, maybe that could commuters—for example, teachers—who travel to Bristol. be done on a postcode basis. Such a scheme has been They are suffering every day at a time when hours are introduced on the Dartford crossing. I believe that it is being cut, wages frozen and fuel prices are high. easier to do that on the Humber and Dartford crossings, As the hon. Member for Monmouth has said, what as they have no concession. I am sure that the Minister came out loud and clear from the Committee’s inquiry will put me right on that if I am wrong, but in the longer is that the contract negotiated with Severn River Crossing term, could we look at doing that in Wales? 173WH Severn Crossings Toll19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 174WH

On to the thorny issue of modern technology, I are less likely to visit some parts of the country than believe that one of the witnesses, who gave evidence to others. We must make sure that money coming into the Committee referred to not being able to pay by Wales is as evenly distributed as possible. modern methods as a “mild national embarrassment”. Also important, of course, is the part that tourism That the issue was shown on “Gavin & Stacey” has been plays in attracting people into Wales. As hon. Members well-reported. I am glad that the temporary system is in have mentioned, many of us remember watching the place, although I believe that the permanent machines television programme “Gavin and Stacey” when Smithy have not been installed yet. The company pledged to the is trying get across the Severn toll crossing and cannot Committee to do that within the first quarter of this find the right money. That programme has, of course, year, so I would be most grateful for an update on made Barry Island famous. I have to confess that on my progress. last visit to Cardiff I ventured down to have a look Given the long, painful years it has taken to get to the around and have a go on the slot machines. Seriously stage of being able to pay by credit and debit cards, though, we need to do all we can to boost tourism and which appeared to be a fairly simply issue, may I urge attract more visitors to stimulate the economy wherever the Minister to get to grips with the future of the bridge we can. post-2017, as the hon. Member for Monmouth has As the Prime Minister said at Question Time on mentioned? The Government response to the Committee’s Wednesday, we are part of a United Kingdom and report states: every part of it matters. I also urge Severn River Crossing “it is too early to be setting a future strategy for the Severn to look again at fitting the toll with the latest technology Crossings at this stage, including future toll prices and concessions.” to enable them to collect the money. Near my constituency With the current Parliament due to expire in 2015, this of Redditch, the M42 is fitted with that technology, is not an issue that can be left until another election, which is so much easier and more efficient. In conclusion, because businesses and commuters in my constituency I suggest that the Minister continues his good work and need certainty. pushes for a deal that will benefit both business and I welcome the Department’s commitment in the tourism alike, and for a fairer Severn toll crossing. Government response to provide regular updates to everybody on future strategy. I also thank members of 4.25 pm the Committee, as one of the local MPs, for the time Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): I would that they have spent on this issue. It has been a valuable like to make a few quick comments before my voice exercise in providing fresh impetus to sorting out the breaks again. The importance of the report, as I have future of the bridges. already suggested, concerns inward investment and prosperity for Wales. The simple fact is that if we want 4.22 pm to attract inward investment into Wales, multinational Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): It is a pleasure to companies in particular need to be able to assess, years serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Davies. I in advance, the likely costs they will face in networking want to say just a few words about the importance of European markets. I urge the Government to make the Severn toll crossing. At this point, I should probably their intentions clear, so that that can be done. declare an interest. I seem to have used the Severn I share the view of the Welsh Affairs Committee bridge crossing more in the past year in order to visit Chair, the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. my daughter in Cardiff than I ever did in the 18 years Davies). We should aim to minimise the toll, subject to I lived in Wales. operational and maintenance costs, and look again at We have seen inward investment to Wales decrease off-peak fares in terms of traffic management and the massively in the past 20 years. In the late ’70s and early balance between car and van traffic and larger trucks—the ’80s, 20% of the UK’s foreign investment was in Wales. balance between inward investment and trade versus That figure is now just 6%, which makes it crucial that tourism. That is not easy, but we should make a general we make Wales a competitive place to do business. We statement of intent now. We want to see a substantial all recognise that the only way that the second toll reduction in a tax on trade and inward investment into crossing was ever going to be built was with private Wales. I respect the point made by the Minister from a finance, and that the company running it needed to sedentary position asking why Labour did not do that. make a profit for its shareholders. We will, however, in If that was a mistake, then that is not a reason to the not too distant future, as my hon. Friend the Member repeat it. for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) said, see it return As we approach 2017, it becomes more and more to Government hands. We will then have an opportunity important that we make those signals—generally at to help businesses out. first, and then specifically down the road. The Welsh I hope that the Minister is listening and will take note Affairs Committee is focusing strongly on the various of some of the points raised in the debate, and in the parts of inward investment—visiting Germany and so report from the Select Committee, of which I am a on. The crossing is a crucial artery for investment into member. We all understand the dire financial situation Wales. The electrification of the railways is also crucial. that this country is in, but to enable Wales to attract its People will know that I have stood up for the electrification fair share of investment we have to ensure it is on a level of the railways from Cardiff to Swansea, as well as to playing field with the rest of the country. I know there Cardiff. The railway line and the road are the two main are discounts to be had from the south and London, but axes for getting trade into Wales. the only realistic way into Cardiff in a car is to pay the The point was made that there is some uncertainty £5.70. Otherwise one has to go miles out of one’s way, about the economic impact. The Welsh Assembly is incurring extra fuel charges, and we all know how costly supposed to be doing an assessment of that. The that is. Not only are our visitors paying more, but they fundamental economic analysis is obviously that this is 175WH Severn Crossings Toll19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 176WH

[Geraint Davies] Members from Wales to get together and agree on everything but, within minutes, we have an example of clearly a tax on trade and inward investment. Taking on doing precisely that. We agreed on the importance of board what the Chair of the Committee, said, it works the bridge—we welcomed the building of the second both ways. The fact is, however, that it is not worth it for Severn crossing in the early ’90s—and on what is likely people in Newport to pop over to Bristol to do some to happen in 2017, when the concession runs out and building work there, because of the toll. The toll impedes the Government take over the running of the two the development of ambitious small businesses. A company bridges. opening its headquarters will look at the market place. I remember the first bridge being opened and I also, Clearly, more people live on the English side of the river as I said in an intervention, led jointly for the Opposition Severn than on the other side. In terms of cost-management, on the Severn Bridges Bill in 1991—so long ago, in fact, they are better off locating on the English side. That that half the membership of the Bill Committee is dead stands to economic reason, so there is a dramatic impact. and the other half, except for me, is in the House of I was disappointed by the evidence we heard from Lords. It was interesting reading the debate because, Ieuan Wyn Jones. He was meant to be in charge of although we agreed with the building of the second economic development for Wales, but happily he is not Severn crossing, which was absolutely necessary, there any more. He seemed to have the idea that some of the were concerns about the nature of the deal and of the reduction in price, which should go to motorists, inward concession. I am glad that the Select Committee referred investors, and the traffic of people and products, should to that in its report: be taxed away and spent on other pet projects in “Our inquiry demonstrates the inflexibility contained in the Aberystwyth, or wherever. That misses the point that Severn Bridges Act 1992 and the concession agreement between the fundamental driver of the Welsh economy is trade. the Government and Severn River Crossing Plc. This has made it As it happens, my father used to be in charge of difficult for the Government to respond to the current economic economic development in the Wales Office some time climate and freeze the toll”— ago. There was an analysis at the time to show that whether the Government of which I was a member or Wales is not just one great economy. Essentially, it is the present Government, because both would find it two economies—south Wales with the south-west, and difficult to change the intricate concession and deal north Wales with Liverpool. A moment’s thought would agreed 20-odd years ago, and we must look to the future lead us to that conclusion. The study made clear the on that. interdependence of the south-west and south Wales. I agreed very much with my hon. Friends the Members Therefore, having a brake or a tax on that relationship for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) and for Newport East harms both economies. We know from the first principles (Jessica Morden) on how new technology has not been of economics that trade is beneficial, so it is not a good introduced on the bridge that I will cross in five hours’ idea to say, “Separate these two and they won’t have to time. All of us who travel to Europe, France in particular, compete with each other.” Trade is mutually beneficial. and to other countries have seen the most sophisticated Again, I urge the Minister to encourage the Treasury technology—number plate recognition or using credit to signal the direction of travel and to give us greater cards and so on—but none of that has happened on our clarity. bridges into Wales. Frankly, that is a matter of public In places such as Swansea, which I represent, we have scandal. All Governments are to blame for not putting the enormous growth of the university as a research-and- pressure on the company to ensure that. development, technologically driven entity with global The other issue that was raised in 1991 was that there reach and attraction. Companies such as Tata Steel, ought, we believed, to be local inquiries every time the Rolls-Royce and now Boots the Chemist have moved tolls were to be increased substantially. That proposal their research and development to Swansea, and they was defeated in Committee; it would have been a good are looking to develop products with a global reach. idea, but it did not happen. Part of that is being able to link to European networks I read with great interest the Select Committee’s and beyond, and part is the cost of moving products questioning of the top officials of Severn River Crossing and people between Wales and England and beyond. plc. I entirely understood the questions posed by the The issue is not a minor one, with people who happen Committee, especially those of my hon. Friend the to live in Cardiff getting annoyed; it is about our Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), but I failed to strategic position on inward investment and the understand the answers—perhaps that was my fault—and development of the Welsh economy, which is so important the finances surrounding the end of the concession are for all of us. I look forward to the Minister’s response. as murky as the Severn itself. I do not know who, if anyone, will make a great deal of money in a few years’ 4.31 pm time, but I do know that when we look at the figures, the running costs are £15 million a year and the income is Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): Thank you, Mr Davies—I £72 million a year. The debt is almost paid off and no have just realised that one third of the Members in the new technology has been put in, so one wonders a little Chamber are called Davies. why those figures do not quite add up. The hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) and I ought to form a Gwent national party because I Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) agreed entirely with everything he said when opening (PC): The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting the debate. Again, the Select Committee is to be commended point. Does he agree that it was very strange that, on its work. Interestingly, in our earlier debate, the during those deliberations, the company was unable to Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member provide us with its likely profit at the end of the for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), said that it is quite rare for concessionary period? 177WH Severn Crossings Toll19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 178WH

Paul Murphy: It was amazing. I hope that this debate Owen Smith: That is a question to be addressed to and any consequent Government policy might lead to Carwyn Jones, the Welsh Labour First Minister in discussions with Severn River Crossing plc so that we Cardiff. I am delighted that he will be in charge, because can get to the bottom of what, frankly, I could not I shared some of the misgivings of my hon. Friend the understand. Member for Swansea West about the evidence that we An impact assessment has been started by the Welsh heard from the man who was hitherto responsible for Assembly Government. There is now a new Executive economic development—the leader of Plaid Cymru. in Cardiff—I believe that the Minister is Huw Lewis, Having said that, I think it is important that we look but I might be wrong—and I hope that the Under-Secretary to the Government—had the Labour Administration of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Hemel remained in power, we would also have done this—to Hempstead (Mike Penning), when he winds up our forge a better understanding and a joint interest in how debate, agrees on the great need for collaboration between the bridge is managed post-2017. I am sure that the the Welsh Assembly Government, the Department for Minister will reassure us that the Government will Transport and, if we can persuade it, Her Majesty’s consider carefully how to ensure that the Assembly has Treasury. In a few years’ time, there will be a huge a full role to play in that, because its interest is clearly change in how the bridges are operated and financed, considerable. On another matter, I hope to hear positive and we must start preparing now. noises from the Minister that the Department for Transport will carefully consider the economic analysis that the 4.36 pm Assembly is undertaking, so that we may better understand Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): This, again, has the impact that the bridge tolls have on trade, tourism been an interesting and worthwhile debate—certainly and transport in Wales. worth while from my perspective, not least because The report shed some light on some of the issues— it gives me the opportunity to say that I, too, find it particularly the murky economics of the bridge—but utterly inexplicable that my right hon. Friend the Member not as much as we would have liked, although it provided for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), the former Secretary of greater insight into how it was paid for initially, what State for Wales, for Northern Ireland and for Wales the financial structures were, and how the company again, is not in the other place. However, it is a delight proposes to make money. It will hand the bridge back for us to be able to enjoy his wisdom for a few more when it has taken £1 billion in revenue. The report did years in this House. not give us total satisfaction in explaining the volume of The Severn bridges are a hugely strategic part of the profit that the company will make at the end of the day, infrastructure of Wales. The Select Committee report and I agree that the opacity was deplorable. I hope that was extremely timely because it addressed, as we have one of the lessons we learn is that future financial deals not seen addressed in the House, that question of their leading to the building of important pieces of infrastructure strategic importance. Furthermore, important post-2017 should be more transparent. Given the Minister’s candour decisions, to which hon. Members referred earlier, beckon when addressing the Committee, I am sure that he will whichever Government are in power when the bridge agree. comes into public ownership. We had a bit more clarity about ownership of the I hope that the Government learn from some bridge. I am not sure whether the hon. Member for of the things revealed by the report, which affords us Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) was correct in saying an opportunity to be taught about how important that the French have no interest in it, because I think infrastructural developments, such as the second Severn they have a bit. More importantly, the Americans have bridge, might be financed in future. That development a big interest, because the banks that ultimately sit at came at the outset of the debate on private finance the back of ownership are, by and large, American. We initiatives—very different PFI structures are put in place have a bit more understanding about the concession for infrastructure these days—but, clearly, lessons can agreement and its shortcomings. Lastly, we had significant be learned, in particular about the contractual nature of insight into the reason for the prehistoric technology on the agreement made between the Government and whoever the bridge, the principal reason being the concession is developing things. agreement; into the lack of incentive for the company to invest—it would trim its profit; and into the Government’s The report gave us the opportunity to explore, although inability to mandate the company to invest to move the not really get to the bottom of, the economic impact of technology into the 21st century. the bridge tolls on Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) talked at length I want to ask the Minister some questions about that. about the inevitable economic consequence of what I In his forthright evidence to the Committee, he referred think we all agree is a high toll, obligating people to the technology, rather colourfully, as having to looking to trade and travel across the bridge to commit “queue up in some kind of Soviet system”. extra resources. That must, at some level, be an impediment I agree entirely. He also, interestingly, hinted that he to developing trade between Wales and England and to proposed to reopen negotiations with Severn River developing the Welsh economy. Crossing to explore how investment might take place in the period before the bridge becomes publicly owned, Jonathan Edwards: The policy of the previous Welsh so that taxpayers are not entirely saddled with that bill. Government was to seek responsibility for the bridges However, he acknowledged that if the company invested, at the end of the concessionary period. Can the hon. the Government, under the terms of the contract, would Gentleman inform the people of Wales what the policy have to compensate it up front for making the investment of the new Welsh Government is? If the rhetoric of and incurring the loss. standing up for Wales is to be believed, surely gaining I would like an update from the Minister, today if control over the main supply route into Wales would be possible, on where those negotiations are and whether a main objective. the Welsh people may expect changes and further 179WH Severn Crossings Toll19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 180WH

[Owen Smith] The two bridges are national assets, and owned by no one, except that the second one is temporarily owned by improvements in the technology before 2017—or whether, the company that was set up to facilitate it. The freehold as I fear, the public purse will end up bearing the cost of land that it sits on is the responsibility of the Secretary taking the bridge into the 21st century and thereafter. I of State for Transport, and the toll booths in Wales are encourage the Minister to be as robust with Second also his responsibility. The analogy is interesting. I have River Crossing as he normally is in his exchanges in the a map that shows the boundary between England and House. Wales. The original bridge is solely in England, and the The Minister may be able to help us with the issue new bridge, as it is still called, is predominantly on raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East English soil and water. (Jessica Morden) and the pledge that the Conservative That is unimportant, because the bridges are national party made at the election—to offset the cost of freezing assets, and I fully respect the concern of the Welsh the toll to the tune of £29 million in the unlikely event community, particularly in south Wales, about the that they won the election in Wales. Thankfully, they importance of the bridge and its efficient working. I did not, but many of us were surprised at the time that also respect the concern about the contract that was such a promise could be made. It begs the question entered into when I was still a fireman; most of us here, whether there were conversations between the although not me, were very young in the early days of Conservative-led Administration at Westminster and the private finance initiative, to which my hon. Friend the Conservatives in Wales that allowed them to make the Member for Monmouth alluded. With hindsight, that statement or whether, as he implied from a sedentary would we be in such a position today? Of course we position earlier, the Minister knew nothing about it. would not, whether or not the previous Government Perhaps he will clarify that. were still in place. I suspect that the Minister did not know much about As colleagues who know me are aware, I am not it. If he did, will he confirm that, irrespective of who hugely party political. Nevertheless, I could not help won the election, the Assembly could not unilaterally thinking that we have had 13 years of a Labour Government have agreed to pay Second River Crossing the money and although 2015 is approaching, we are only one year to make up the shortfall if it had broken the current along from when the previous Administration were in contract to fix the toll increase annually, predicated on place; the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint the retail prices index? Surely renegotiation would have Davies) alluded to point from a sedentary position. been necessary between the Government at Westminster, What work did the previous Administration do to bring who are one part of the contract, and Second Severn in some of the technology that I will talk about in a Crossing. Perhaps the Minister will clarify how it would moment, and what is going to happen at a later date, work if the current Assembly Administration wanted to possibly in 2017? I will touch on some of those points in pursue a similar policy. Would that be possible? Would a moment, but the issue depends on the funding that the the Government be open to that, or is it off the table? users put into the bridge as we go forward. As the Minister is here, I have a final and slightly The Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee is a good cheeky point. I thank him on behalf of the people of friend of mine, but he alluded to a tax on Wales. In Wales for the announcement of the U-turn on the reality, it is a tax on anybody who uses the bridge. There coastguards. He is the Minister responsible for that, and is an extensive haulier community in my constituency, it is welcome. I urge him to think again about the and I am the Minister responsible for roads, freight and Driving Standards Agency and the Driver and Vehicle so on. Hauliers from England, Scotland and Ireland, Licensing Agency. Perhaps we could have some U-turns and those from continental Europe, who also pay the on those. tolls, might take issue—although perhaps only fractionally 4.46 pm —with the comments made by the Chair of the Welsh The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Affairs Committee. I understand, however, how emotive (Mike Penning): It is a pleasure to serve under your the subject is. chairmanship, Mr Davies, in this ground-breaking debate. Let me touch on some of the points raised. I will not I wish I had been the first ground-breaker this afternoon, repeat the brilliant history lesson provided by my hon. but the Under-Secretary of State for Wales got in first. Friend the Member for Monmouth—again, I am praising It is a pleasure to be here, and to respond to the Select the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee—because Committee’s genuinely excellent report. I had the honour there is no point going over it again. We all know where and privilege to give evidence to it early in my time as we are, and many hon. Members know the situation Minister. better than I, despite what I have learned over the past When I looked at the history of Ministers in my year since taking this position. I, too, sat in queues at Department, I wondered whether I would be here today. the tolls for many years when Wembley stadium was The average life expectancy of a Transport Minister is being rebuilt and the wonderful Cardiff stadium was eight months, and I have been in the post for a year and used. I sat in that stadium on many occasions, supporting a day. I am either doing something very wrong, or the the England rugby team. I will leave the results for Prime Minister has forgotten about me. others to comment on. To be honest, I was pleased with the report in many For me the key questions are where we are now, what ways, not least because it removed some of the myths to we can do in the short term and what is the long-term which my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth proposal for the bridge. I listened to earlier comments (David T. C. Davies), the Committee Chairman, alluded. about technology. It is ludicrous that in the 21st century, I will try as best I can to respond to the debate, instead technology is only just arriving at the toll booths on the of reading out a speech that was written for me, and crossing. However, some of the comments made during I will do that as a Minister for the United Kingdom. the debate about what can and cannot be used at the 181WH Severn Crossings Toll19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 182WH tolls were not factually correct; if my officials are wrong, and between 6 September and 11 October on the westbound I apologise. The hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica carriageways. That is due mostly to the fact that the Morden)—I apologise if I pronounce some of the inside lane in both directions is severely worn and will constituency names wrongly; my Welsh is not brilliant have to be completely replaced. and as a cockney lad I was not taught it at school. I We looked carefully at how to manage the obvious mean no offence. [Interruption.] I admit that I picked disruption that will take place. Options included a the easy name first. contraflow system and shutting the bridge while work is A debit or credit can be used at a manned toll booth. carried out. The option that we went for will extend the It can be used at any time, but it depends on whether the work—overall it will take about five weeks to put a new booth is manned. The Chamber will be pleased to know waterproof membrane on the bridge and surface the that according to information that I received today, it road—but it will leave at least one lane open each way. will be possible in July to use non-PIN card technology We made the decision not to shut the bridge or use a at the booths. That is crucial because the use of PIN contraflow system that would have caused more expense technology creates delays. I will come on to further and extensive delays. There will be delays, for which I technology later in the debate, but my information apologise, but investment must be put into the bridge suggests that that will happen in July—I was told it because of its age, and that will be done. It is a reflection would happen in the summer, and “July” is written in of the amount of traffic that the bridge carries. brackets behind that. The only party political point that I will make during The company has an agreement with the banks, but my speech will be to touch on the recent elections and we have had to assist with that to obtain that sort of my Welsh colleagues’ proposals to fund the costs of the technology. As hon. Members will imagine, banks prefer toll increases through the Welsh Assembly. It is entirely PIN technology because of the risk of fraud. We have up to the Welsh Assembly whether or not it wishes to resolved that issue, however, although there was some use its funds in that way. If the Conservative party had surprise about that, not least because we had to get been elected, it would have been its decision how to run through European legislation. Nevertheless, we succeeded the economy in Wales, just as today’s Administration in doing so and in July people will be able to cross using make those decisions. If the Conservative party—or non-PIN card technology, which will help enormously—I any other party as the hon. Member for Pontypridd am sure hon. Members will hold me to that, and I will (Owen Smith) said earlier—decided that it wanted to hold the company to account should it not happen. fund the cost of the difference between the toll today The removal of the 30 seconds that would be added and the proposed increases under the contract agreement, to a transaction through the use of a PIN will help that could be negotiated with the United Kingdom speed through the just under 4,000 vehicles per hour Government. My door is open to the Welsh Assembly, with which the booths are capable of dealing. Interestingly, under the respect agenda to say the least. I wrote to my the capacity of the M4 is greater than that when everything counterpart in that Assembly—I must now write again goes correctly. I hope that in five hours’ time when the because the holder of that position has changed—and right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) makes offered my assistance. that journey, the severe tailbacks that were reported to I am speaking on behalf of the Department rather me earlier will have gone—I am joking; as I understand than the Treasury, but if that money were used to offset it, the road is clear although information comes in the difference, the contract would not be affected and regularly. would remain in place. The only difference would be The other day, I was pleased to announce a huge that money would be recouped from the Welsh Assembly investment of £100 million in the M4/M5 managed rather than directly from the tolls. It is a complicated motorway network. That money comes from the central legal issue. It sounds simple, but it is quite complicated. fund, and will dramatically change the traffic situation Did I know about this? I have to be perfectly honest: the on that side of the bridge. As hon. Members know, my answer is no. However, that does not mean that we background is in the fire service, and I was very sceptical would not get into negotiations or provide every assistance about managed motorways when I first looked at the for that to happen. technology; to me, hard shoulders are dangerous areas All the discussions that we have had to date, including that were designed for a reason. in the Select Committee, have been based on whether Nevertheless, when the managed motorways system there could be a reduction in the toll at night or a was piloted on the M42 under the previous Administration, reduction in the toll for local residents. I must admit it was massively over-engineered at the time, but it that the position is much more complicated in this case worked. We have since moved the engineering down, than it is in the case of the two other major bridges that and rolled the system out around the country. A are often cited. Could there be no increases whatever? £100 million investment is being provided in difficult Everything comes down to the fact that a contract is in times to the M4 and M5 around the Bristol area. place that says that the company is allowed, after costs, Colleagues will know how difficult the bottleneck on to recoup x amount of money before the bridge is those two major arteries can be, and that will be alleviated handed back into the full ownership of the Secretary of once the roadworks are finished. That is always a State. problem—it is no pain, no gain when it comes to If I were the company, would I want to negotiate any roadworks. changes to the present contract? Probably not. So what While we are talking about pain, most colleagues will we are talking about is an increase in the time that the receive a letter from me tomorrow stating that we intend tolls would be there. At every stage when I talk about to start work on the road surface of the new bridge. the tolls and the bridge and we have these discussions, it Work will start—I can give the exact date—on 9 June is a question of a balance between the length of time and run until 14 July on the eastbound carriageways, that the bridge is out of our ownership, based on the 183WH Severn Crossings Toll19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 184WH

[Mike Penning] because it reduces emissions and makes travel much more cost-effective for people. I do not understand how contractual agreement that we have, and when it could the concession agreement would be affected in that come back into our ownership and decisions could be respect, but I am sure that the lawyers will tell me why I made. am wrong—as always, I am being as honest as I can. It would be wrong of me to say that we are not The hon. Member for Newport East made a couple thinking about what will happen at the end of the of other points earlier. I have already touched on how concession agreement. Of course, we are thinking about price freezing and tolling would work. In the Select what will happen. However, as I have said, this is a Committee evidence session, I talked about whether national piece of infrastructure and a cross-departmental there is more technology that we can use to make things matter. It is a national asset. I am sure that the Welsh much easier for the communities on both sides of the Assembly and the Welsh people will understand that we border and for industry and at the same time to sweat will have to consider what happens to the bridge in the the asset more, as we are doing with managed motorways. context of the investment going into our networks. In other words, are we getting the best out of the However, no decision has been made. bridge? Clearly, the toll process is causing delays. We are committed to free-flow tolling at the Dartford Geraint Davies: Naturally, the debate focused on whether river crossing. We made an announcement about that in we could reduce the toll to £1 up to 2017, but I infer the spending round, and I made an announcement from what the Minister has said that if the money was about it to the Select Committee. There are real technical forthcoming—for example, from the Welsh Assembly issues about using automatic number plate recognition, or from anywhere else—to pay down the debt now, the which is what we intend to use. It is similar to what the bridge would move into public ownership earlier than congestion charge scheme in London uses. There is an 2017, in which case we could have lower tolls now, enforcement issue, particularly in relation to overseas although perhaps not a toll of £1. Can the Westminster vehicles. We intend to get that right at Dartford before Government now pay down that debt from their own we introduce the system. However, I can see no logical money, with a strategy of recovering the money that reason why it could not be introduced at the Severn they pay it down with by reducing the toll now to river crossing. somewhere between where it is now and £1, so that we The problem, of course, is the cost and who bears it. could have a lower toll sooner, albeit not as low as £1? That is what the hon. Member for Pontypridd was alluding to. Let us be honest: why would the company Mike Penning: This is where I wish that I had not set up in the context of the concession agreement to joined the Army at 16 but had gone to university and make this profit say to me, “Okay, Minister, we’ll spend become a corporate lawyer. We can discuss the legalities x million pounds doing this for you,” rather than saying, in quite simple terms. Nothing at all can be done “Will you pay for it?” or “We’ll use our rights to go without the agreement of the concessionaire, so should further in the concessionary period.” the company decide that it does not want to do what The truth is that by the time we fully implement has been suggested, that will be a fact. We are trapped ANPR and free-flow technology at Dartford, we will be in a contract; everyone knows that and the Committee into 2013, not least because of the construction work examined the matter in detail. that needs to be done. Doing free-flow tolling sounds I can see the logic of where the hon. Member for simple, but it is not. Otherwise, people would be hurtling Swansea West is coming from, but the Welsh Assembly through and we would have speed issues and so on. We subsidising what would be the increase this year would will not be that far away from the conclusions about not cause the contract to be terminated earlier, because what will happen post the concession. I think that the all that would happen is that the same money would be negotiations will have to include what we would expect recouped from the Assembly or whoever wanted to pay a modern tolling system to involve in the 21st century. it as would be recouped from tolls. Thus the length of The issue will arise once we have rolled out the system time would be exactly the same. I will write to the hon. and done everything that we need to do at Dartford. Gentleman—the lawyers are probably panicking as they The last thing that the Select Committee would want listen to the debate—to clarify exactly what the legal me to do is to say yes, we’ll definitely be able to roll it position is. However, I am certain—this is what all the out in 2015 or ’16—in the latter part of this Parliament—if advice says—that if the company that was formed we have not got it running right. I am confident that we specifically for this purpose does not want to play ball, can do that, because the technology is there. there is nothing that we can do. I think that we were all sceptical when the congestion charge was introduced in London. The issue was not Jessica Morden: While the Minister is on the issue of the rights and wrongs of it, but whether it would work. the contract, does what has been said equally apply to It does work. The main issue is enforcement in relation car sharing? Would it be equally difficult to resolve the to foreign-registered vehicles. I was with representatives issue of being able to swap between different cars in of Transport for London only today, working out how car-sharing schemes? we can deal with that.

Mike Penning: I have asked for a note, but it has not Owen Smith: I want to clarify what the Minister has arrived. It might do—hint, hint—in the time left. I just said, because it was very interesting. Is he suggesting cannot understand the difference, I must admit. Clearly, that some negotiations have taken place already between car sharing is going on. It happens on the routes that go the Department for Transport and the company and from where I used to live in Essex into London. We that, subject to the technology being made failsafe at commend car sharing. We want people to share cars, Dartford, an agreement might be struck whereby the 185WH Severn Crossings Toll19 MAY 2011 Severn Crossings Toll 186WH

Government would be prepared to compensate the The key is fairness. If tolls continue beyond the company for introducing free-flow technology on the existing agreement, and if free-flow tolling comes in, it bridge before 2017? Is that what he was implying? would be wrong in my opinion that the tolls should remain one-way. That unfairness would have to be Mike Penning: No. That would be a spending addressed if we had free-flow tolling and if the toll was commitment, and I do not have the authority in my increased. A number of truck drivers have told me that lowly position to dream of ever giving one. I know that they go into Wales one way and come out the other the hon. Gentleman would not want to put words into because of the toll. Not only is the Treasury is losing my mouth, but the answer is no. The only way of funding income, but it is another unfairness that needs to be that before 2017 would be through the concessionaire, addressed, although it is difficult to deal with it now, and the discussion would be about whether it is willing because of the way it is set up. to fund it under the existing contract—I doubt whether I hope that I have not delayed anyone’s journey it would be. If we did not allow the company to increase home. Indeed, we will finish a fraction early. I hope that the toll, it would look for an extension or—this is within I have answered most questions, at least in general the contract, and it would have every right to do so—to terms. I have been as honest as I can, as I was when seek compensation from the Treasury. That, too, is giving evidence to the Select Committee. I pay tribute to unlikely. the Committee on its conclusions, even if we do not By a miracle, a document has appeared before me. It fully agree on certain aspects. I was interested to note says that SRC is prepared to negotiate extending the that all who here today are Welsh MPs, yet the subject TAG scheme for car sharing. Naturally, however, it will has a significant effect on the UK as a whole. not want to be financially worse off. That may not fully answer the question asked by the hon. Member for Geraint Davies: I wonder whether the Minister could Newport East, but it is the best that I can do. I want to signal in the most general terms whether he anticipates be as open as I can about this. I shall write to SRC the direction of travel for the toll post-2017 to be saying what I was told during the debate and asking the significantly downwards. It would be interesting information company to clarify its position. I shall share that information for inward investors. with colleagues. It is only right and proper to do so. Mike Penning: As I have said, I do not intend delaying I realise that still have plenty of time, but I have no the Committee. The answer is no. I cannot give an intention of filibustering—not least because Members indication, and the hon. Gentleman can probably wish to disappear. However, I have a speaking engagement understand why. in London this evening, so I am more than happy to continue. On that point, I hand over to the Committee Chair. I hope that I have paid the report due credit. In conclusion, I welcome the Committee’s report, and I shall work closely with the Welsh Assembly 5.15 pm Government in analysing the economic effect of tolling. As my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth rightly David T. C. Davies: I am grateful to the Minister, a pointed out, there is little hard evidence that the bridges fellow holder of an HGV licence, for giving me another have had an economic effect. I do not say that they have 15 minutes to speak. As some of us wish to make not, but the Committee made extensive efforts to find fact-finding visits to the Severn bridge later today, I evidence and did not, despite Chinese whispers among shall not use it all. local communities. As I have said, the Welsh Assembly A bridge with a toll is better than no bridge. That is has publicised the fact that some 700 companies have accepted. A bridge with a cashless payment system located in the region over the past 40 years, long before would be better still, and not one that takes only credit the Welsh Assembly was formed, so something must be cards; the sort pioneered by companies such as Ringo—I right. I believe that that evidence is shown on the have no connection with the company, but it gave Assembly website. evidence to the Committee—would be better still. A I realise that the crossing is a vital piece of national bridge with a reduced toll after 2017 would be excellent, infrastructure. I am proud that my portfolio predominantly and we look forward to improvements. covers the whole of this great nation of ours. It is for me The Gwent national party, led by the right hon. to work with and alongside the various devolved Assemblies Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), and I see eye to and Parliaments. At the same time, however, I must eye on many things, and we would have no difficulty in ensure that they understand that it is a Department for finding agreement on the Severn bridge, on the importance Transport piece of infrastructure—a Westminster one— of the Union and on the importance of the first-past- despite knowing how emotive it is to the local communities the-post voting system—and, I suspect, on whether we in Wales and those on the other side of the bridge in hand further powers to the Welsh Assembly. That, England. however, is an argument for another day. We look forward I have listened carefully to the hauliers. I listen to to improvements after 2017. them nearly every day, and they are an amazing group Question put and agreed to. of people. Perhaps I think that because I hold an HGV licence and used to drive lorries when a fireman—like 5.16 pm most firemen, I used to drive part-time when off duty. Sitting adjourned.

23WS Written Ministerial Statements19 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

social security, intellectual property rights, visas, work Written Ministerial permits, insurance and customs. The conclusions respond to the need identified in several major EU culture policy Statements documents such as the current Culture Programme, the European Agenda For Culture and the Council Work Plans for Culture covering the periods 2008-2010 and Thursday 19 May 2011 2011-14. The UK will support the adoption of these conclusions. Under the sport section of the meeting, the Council will be invited to adopt a resolution on a European CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT work plan for sport. The resolution highlights three priority areas for action at EU level: integrity of sport, Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council in particular the fight against doping, match-fixing and (19-20 May 2011) the promotion of good governance; social values of sport, in particular health, social inclusion, education and volunteering; and economic aspects of sport, in The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh particular sustainable financing of grassroots sports Robertson): The Education, Youth, Culture and Sport and evidence-based policy-making. The UK is supportive Council will be held on 19 and 20 May in Brussels. of the aims of the work plan and intends to support its Culture and audiovisual issues will be taken on 18 May. adoption. Sport issues will be taken on 20 May. The Deputy UK There will then be a discussion of a presidency paper Permanent Representative, Andy Lebrecht, will be on sport related aspects of online betting. The paper representing the UK for the culture, audiovisual and asks questions on the impact recent growth in online sport sections of the Council. betting has had on sport sectors in each member state The first item on the agenda will be the agreement on and what measures have been taken in this respect. The the proposal for a European Heritage Label (EHL). paper also asks what kind of policy response is required The EHL is a proposal that builds on an informal at EU level. The deputy permanent representative will process launched independently by a group of member intervene to highlight how the UK as an engaged and states in 2007. The designation is intended to focus on responsible regulator, is aware of the issues from both the promotion of sites that “symbolise and strengthen the sporting and betting sides and the importance of European history and heritage”, rather than conservation. maintaining an appropriate balance between the industries. Although the UK has not opposed the creation of the Under any other business there will be a presentation EHL in principle, the Government have reservations from the Commission on the report from the Comité about the need for a new scheme that presents the des Sages on bringing Europe’s cultural heritage online. potential for duplication of the UNESCO world heritage There will be an information point from the presidency list. Throughout negotiations the UK actively supported on the Council Work Plan for Culture 2011-2014. The the voluntary nature of the scheme; opposed any additional presidency will also raise an information point on EU cost burdens; and supported changes to make the scheme structured dialogue with the sport movement. as light touch as possible. As there is a risk that funding The Polish delegation will inform the Council on the for the EHL in 2013 will be taken from the margins of priorities for their forthcoming presidency. The Slovenian the EU budget, the UK has maintained a reserve on and French delegations will raise an information point financial provisions and intends to abstain in the final on a proposed manifesto for culture in Europe. I do not vote. It is expected that a formal agreement on the foresee a need to intervene on either of these. proposal will be reached at the Council meeting. The presidency will seek the adoption of a decision on the selection of a city to host the European capital of culture event for 2015. Belgium and the Czech Republic DEFENCE are the EU member states eligible to nominate cities for 2015. Belgium’s nomination of the city of Mons for the Report of the Select Committee on the Armed Forces title was agreed at the Council meeting last November. Bill (Government Response) The Czech Republic has now nominated the city of Plzen for the title and the Council will be asked to adopt this decision. The UK will support this proposal. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence The Council will be invited to adopt conclusions on (Mr Andrew Robathan): The Ministry of Defence welcomes the contribution of culture to the implementation of the the Select Committee’s report on the Armed Forces Bill Europe 2020 strategy. These conclusions highlight the (HC 779). In this formal response, I will deal with each contribution of culture to smart, sustainable and inclusive of the Committee’s conclusions and recommendations growth. They invite member states to consider the cross- in turn. cutting nature of culture when formulating relevant I shall begin with the Committee’s recommendation policies. The UK will support the adoption of these that Select Committee scrutiny should continue to be conclusions. the convention for Armed Forces Bills. I believe that the The Council is expected to adopt Council conclusions appointment of a Select Committee which was able to on mobility information services for artists and for take evidence and conduct visits allowed Committee culture professionals. These suggest possible measures members an opportunity to visit armed forces units, to to establish mobility information services and foster the hear from members of the armed forces and their flow of information on mobility issues such as taxation, families, and to develop a better understanding of service 25WS Written Ministerial Statements19 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS life. These experiences helped Committee members in the identity of the bearer would be an expensive project their role of scrutinising the legislation. I therefore and would require significant administration. There is welcome the Committee’s recommendation. no defence need for such a card and it would not The Select Committee spent a significant amount of provide good value for money. Nevertheless, we agree its time examining the provisions in the Bill that relate that there is value in developing a card which confirms to the armed forces covenant report. There were differences the status of individuals as former servicemen or women of view on some issues, but Committee members were and can be used in order to facilitate easier access to united in their support for service personnel, veterans discounts and other privileges, including those arising and their families. I therefore strongly welcome the from the armed forces community covenant initiative. Committee’s conclusion that military service is unique This option would require a lower level of verification and that individuals who serve in the armed forces than an actual identification card. The Government should be recognised for the contribution they make. announced their intention to introduce such a card on 16 May. The Government have already made significant progress in rebuilding the armed forces covenant. The commitment I welcome the Committee’s support for the existing to produce a report on the covenant will make the policy in relation to the recruitment of under-18s. However, Secretary of State accountable to Parliament for this following a review of discharge policy I am pleased to work. The Government’s announcement that they will announce that, for those under the age of 18, the ability table amendments to the Bill, so that the key principles to be discharged will in future be a right up to the age of of the covenant are written into law, will further strengthen 18, subject to an appropriate period of consideration or that element of the legislation. I agree with the Committee’s cooling off. My officials are currently finalising the recommendation that, in creating a tri-service document, policy details and these will be brought forward shortly we should use the term “armed forces covenant” to in secondary legislation. signify its inclusivity. The Committee’s final recommendation was in relation to trials of service personnel. The Committee recommended Committee members will be aware that we have used that the Ministry of Defence should consider whether that title in the new version of the covenant which we there might be a benefit in transferring the handling of published on 16 May 2011. some cases to the service courts and whether there I welcome the Committee’s comments about the external might also be scope for the creation of a power in reference group. The Government value the important civilian courts to remit cases to the service courts for contribution that the group has made and continues to sentence. Proposals for changes in both of these areas make in driving forward our work on supporting the were discussed at a meeting of the service justice board armed forces community. The group has proved its worth in January 2011, when it was agreed that staff in the and at no time has its continued existence, or its vital central legal services directorate should lead further role, been in doubt. Our aim is to strengthen the group work to assess whether greater flexibility could be achieved rather than to sideline it. The Government agree that its in the transfer of cases between jurisdictions and the terms of reference should be updated. Ultimately it is possibility of transferring cases to the court martial for for the group to decide how its work will be taken sentencing. That work is in hand at present. forward, and we have asked its external members for their views on its future role, terms of reference and membership. This includes how they wish to engage with the process of preparing the Defence Secretary’s ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE annual report to Parliament on the armed forces covenant. I welcome the Committee’s support for the provisions Ofgem Review: Summary of Conclusions in the Bill in relation to the independence and powers of service police; to drug and alcohol testing; and those which aim to provide greater independence of service The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change complaints panels, where circumstances demand. (Chris Huhne): Today I am publishing the conclusions of the Ofgem review. Following the Committee’s recommendation that the Ministry of Defence should review service complaints The coalition programme for Government committed procedures and the powers of the Service Complaints to a review of the role of Ofgem. The annual energy Commissioner, the commissioner published her annual statement last July announced the terms of the review, report on 31 March. In the response, I welcomed the which focused on Ofgem’s role in regulating the gas and commissioner’s acknowledgement of the real progress electricity markets, and that conclusions would be published that the Ministry of Defence and the armed forces have in spring 2011. made in relation to the handling of complaints. While I The review has concluded that the current system am pleased with this progress, I recognise the importance should be strengthened to bring greater clarity and of the commissioner’s recommendations as to ways to coherence to the distinct roles of Government and the improve the system further. A review of the service regulator— complaints system will be undertaken and will consider Ofgem will continue to regulate independently of Government; in full the recommendations made by the commissioner Government will set out a strategic policy framework for the in her annual report, including those specifically related energy sector and will define those strategic goals to which to the powers of her role. Ofgem should contribute. The Government will seek legislative provision to require Ofgem to take its independent regulatory The Committee concluded that the matter of a veterans’ decisions within the context of these goals, which will be set ID card could usefully be explored further. In response, out in a new statutory “Strategy and Policy Statement”. I should begin by saying that a veterans’ ID card which Approval from Parliament will be sought before the statement guarantees or provides a very high level of assurance of takes effect. 27WS Written Ministerial Statements19 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS

Ofgem will set out annually how it plans to deliver its on 23 May. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State contribution to the goals and how it will monitor progress, for International Development will attend the Foreign in order to increase transparency and accountability. Affairs Council (Development) on 24 May. A summary of the conclusions is available on the FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL (FOREIGN MINISTERS) DECC website and a full report will be published with the electricity market reform White Paper, before the Libya summer recess. Ministers are expected to discuss developments in I am also publishing today the conclusions of DECC’s Libya since the contact group meeting in Rome of delivery review, which will help DECC respond to future 5 May, where participants agreed to increase pressure delivery challenges. on Gaddafi’s regime. Ministers are likely to agree Governance of existing programmes has been reviewed conclusions referring to the recent announcements by and, where appropriate, changes introduced to improve the International Criminal Court (ICC)—see more below. it. For new programmes, unless there is a clear case for And they may assess the humanitarian situation and placing delivery with a specific third party, delivery will discuss the possibility of setting up an EU office in be led by DECC itself to ensure accountability to Benghazi. Ministers, but with aspects of delivery contracted out, On 12 May, Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, chair of the Libyan where possible and appropriate, to provide maximum national transitional council (NTC), visited the UK value-for-money. and met the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, For the Ofgem review conclusions see: the Foreign Secretary, the Chancellor of the Exchequer www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we_do/uk_supply/ and the Secretary of State for International Development. markets/regulation/regulation.aspx The Foreign Secretary updated Parliament in a written Further information on the delivery review can be ministerial statement on 13 May. found at: www.decc.gov.uk. On 16 May, the Foreign Secretary welcomed the announcement by the ICC that Prosecutor Luis Moreno Ocampo will apply for arrest warrants for Colonel ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Muammar Gaddafi, Saif al-Islam al Gaddafi and Abdullah Senussi. Performing Wild Animals in Circuses The Foreign Secretary said: “I welcome this announcement. The human rights situation in The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Western Libya and the behaviour of the Qadhafi regime remains Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): In my statement of grave concern and the UK was at the forefront of efforts in the to the House of 13 May 2011, Official Report, column UN to adopt resolution 1970 which referred the situation in Libya to the ICC. The request for these warrants is a reminder to 48WS, on the question of the protection of the welfare all in Qadhafi’s regime that crimes will not go unpunished and the of performing wild animals in circuses, I indicated that reach of international justice will be long.” the Austrian Government had recently been taken to court for introducing a ban on wild animals in circuses, “Those responsible for attacks on civilians must he held to as a European Circus Association press release stated. account. The international community must fully support the ICC in thoroughly investigating all allegations. I call on all UN However, I now understand that the initiation of court Member States, whether parties to the Rome Statute or not, to proceedings has been delayed, although a case is in offer their full co-operation.” preparation. My understanding is that such proceedings are likely to be issued in the near future. I would like to Syria avoid any misunderstanding. We expect the Council to agree conclusions on Syria This does not impact on the policy I announced to condemning the violence and ongoing repression of the House about this matter. Having taken advice on the peaceful protesters and for release of detainees. It could legal implications and on the proportionality of all the also call for the UN/ICRC to be granted immediate possible courses of action, I remain convinced that a humanitarian access to several towns in Syria; and to tough licensing regime which introduces additional urge the Syrian Government to choose the path of safeguards to protect wild animals in circuses is the reform and warn the Syrian leadership that the EU will most effective and legally sound route for the estimated work to agree sanctions unless the violence stops and 39 animals concerned. detainees are released. On 13 May, the FCO’s political director, Sir Geoffrey Adams, called in the Syrian ambassador Dr Sami Khiyami FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE to the Foreign Office to express the UK’s strong concerns about the ongoing situation in Syria. Pre-Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Sir Geoffrey emphasised the UK’s profound concern Council (23-24 May 2011) about the Syrian Government’s violent repression of their own citizens, and called on the Syrian authorities The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My to respect universal human rights, including freedom of right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will attend the expression. Sir Geoffrey also expressed concern about Foreign Affairs Council (Foreign Ministers) on 23 May. the continued denial of access of international media My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, into Syria. the Minister with responsibility for international security The political director called on the Syrian Government strategy, the hon. Member for Aldershot (Mr Howarth) to allow UN and other humanitarian organisations will attend the Foreign Affairs Council (Defence) on immediate and unhindered access to besieged Syrian 23 May. I will attend the General Affairs Council cities, particularly the city of Deraa. 29WS Written Ministerial Statements19 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS

Sir Geoffrey said that unless the Syrian Government Middle East Peace Process (MEPP) stopped the killing of protesters and released political Ministers are likely to discuss recent developments in prisoners, the UK along with its EU partners would the MEPP, including the implications of the Fatah-Hamas take further measures to hold the regime to account. reconciliation. There may also be conclusions. We will These measures would include further sanctions targeted make clear our hope that the announcement of at the highest levels of the regime, including travel bans reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas will lead to and asset freezing. the formation of a Government who reject violence and Yemen pursue a negotiated peace, and that we will judge a This will be a further opportunity for the EU to future Palestinian Government by their actions and demonstrate support for the Gulf Co-operation Council’s their readiness to work for peace. (GCC’s) initiative to resolve the current political deadlock On 15 May, the Foreign Secretary called on all parties to agree the transitional process. Further deterioration to exercise restraint after violence broke out on Israel’s in Yemen’s economic and humanitarian situation, and a borders as Palestinians marked Nakba day. rise in violence between protesters and security forces, underpins the urgent need for a political settlement. The Foreign Secretary said: The Government have remained in close contact with “I am deeply concerned by the violence on Israel’s borders EU, US and Gulf counterparts on finding a peaceful today and saddened by the loss of life. I call on all parties to solution. We expect there to be Council conclusions. exercise restraint and ensure that civilian life is protected. These developments make clearer than ever that a lasting and comprehensive My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for resolution to the conflicts in the region is urgently needed and will Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member only be achieved through negotiation”. for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) discussed Southern Caucasus recent events when he met UN special envoy to Yemen Jamal Benomar in London on 12 May. We expect Ministers to discuss recent developments in the south Caucasus, and in particular to focus on the Speaking after the meeting my hon. Friend said: conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. “Mr Benomar’s insights into recent developments in Yemen Bosnia and Herzegovina reinforced my deep concern about what is happening. I condemn the actions taken by the security forces that have reportedly We expect Ministers to discuss the situation in Bosnia caused the death of several protestors and injured many more in and Herzegovina (BiH) following Baroness Ashton’s Taiz, Sana’a, and cities across Yemen. Mr Benomar and I agreed visit there on 13 May. The Government are deeply that all parties should exercise the utmost restraint and take all concerned that a BiH state-level Government has not steps necessary to defuse this situation. been formed over seven months after elections; that I urge the Yemeni authorities to demonstrate their commitment divisive nationalist rhetoric continues; and that there to an orderly and peaceful transition by respecting the right of have been recent serious challenges to state-level institutions peaceful protest and free speech. The rising violence we have witnessed risks undermining the efforts to secure the agreement and to the Dayton agreement. We will urge the Council brokered by the Gulf Co-operation Council. All parties need to to remain fully engaged on this issue and to react as come together urgently to confirm their commitment to this.” necessary to developments on the ground. Iraq Sudan Baroness Ashton may raise the incident at Camp Ministers are expected to be briefed on the key elements Ashraf in Iraq on 8 April, in which 34 people died and of the EU’s comprehensive approach to Sudan, with a some 70 were injured. The UK has supported calls for view to a possible substantive discussion and adoption an independent inquiry. of conclusions at the FAC in June. Given the lack of On 8 April, my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of progress on key issues under the comprehensive peace State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. agreement, and the ongoing violence in Darfur. the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), meeting on 23 May will be an important opportunity made the following statement: for Ministers to stress the importance of a continued focus on Sudan, both in the run-up to and following the “The UK Government has been disturbed to read reports that a number of civilian residents have been killed and many more secession of South Sudan on 9 July. wounded at Camp Ashraf yesterday. I absolutely deplore any loss External Action Service (EAS) of life and my sincere condolences go out to the families of those involved. This should be an opportunity to set out our view on The Iraqi Government has provided us with assurances on the priorities for EAS action, and to underline that the several occasions that it will treat individual residents of camp EAS should limit its representation of the member Ashraf in a humane manner, act in accordance with Iraqi law, the states to agreed areas. It will also be an opportunity to Iraqi Constitution and its international obligations. We urge the voice our opposition to the proposed budget increase Iraqi Government to uphold this commitment. for the EAS of 5.8% (¤27 million) in 2012 and press the Our Ambassador in Baghdad has been expressing our concerns EAS to produce a convincing plan for the savings that to the Iraqi Ministry of Foreign Affairs at the highest levels. We will lead to budget neutrality. call on the Iraqi Government to cease violent operations in Camp Ashraf immediately and to ensure that the residents have full Iran access to medical care. It is important that the Government of There should be an agreement, without discussion, Iraq takes immediate steps to calm the situation and ensure that to the designation of over 100 entities in order to the human rights of the residents are respected. We are aware of a strengthen EU sanctions and increase the pressure on request by UNAMI to send a humanitarian monitoring mission to camp Ashraf as soon as possible. We fully support this request Iran’s nuclear programme. In addition, Baroness Ashton and therefore urge the Iraqi Government to quickly grant permission. may brief Ministers on the reply she recently received We call on all sides to engage in a constructive dialogue that can from the Iranian chief nuclear negotiator, Saeed Jalili. lead to a lasting resolution to the situation.” A spokesperson for Baroness Ashton commented to 31WS Written Ministerial Statements19 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS the press that the reply “does not seem to justify” produce guidelines to help other formations of the organising another meeting between the E3+3 (UK, Council identify and resolve fundamental rights issues. France, Germany, US, Russia and China) and Iran at The Council conclusions may also describe the actions this time. the Council has taken or announced under each of the EU Human Rights six chapters of the charter. Baroness Ashton will brief Ministers on her preliminary Roma views on an EU overall strategy for human rights, Ministers will have an initial discussion of proposed followed by an exchange of views. The final strategy is European Council conclusions on the Commission’s due to be announced in June 2011. communication of 5 April entitled “An EU Framework FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL (DEFENCE) for National Roma Integration Strategies up to 2020”. The Commission’s communication can be found at the The current agenda includes three main items: an following link: informal discussion of military operations; a formal discussion of military capabilities; and the European http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri= Defence Agency (EDA) Steering Board. CELEX:52011DC0173:EN:NOT. Informal working session on operations The conclusions are likely to call on member states to develop national strategies or policy approaches to Ministers will be joined by the NATO Secretary improve the social and economic integration of Roma General Anders Fogh Rasmussen for an informal discussion communities, specifically through access to education, of military operations. The session is likely to focus on a employment, health care and housing. The UK already potential extension to EU Training Mission Somalia. has a strong record on the integration of Roma, Gypsy We do not expect the discussion to result in a decision; and Traveller communities. We will argue for the eventual this is likely to be deferred to the June FAC. The session conclusions not to be overly prescriptive to allow us the will also update progress on Operation Atalanta, Althea, flexibility to continue with these approaches. There will and Eufor Libya. be a more substantive discussion at the 19 May Employment Formal working session on military capabilities and Social Affairs Council, which will feed into the There will be conclusions on pooling and sharing 24 June European Council, where we expect the adoption military capabilities and a broader dialogue on the of formal conclusions. Weimar initiative. Ministers are likely to discuss the FOREIGN AFFAIRS COUNCIL (DEVELOPMENT) High Representative’s interim report (yet to be released) Sudan on the progress of the Weimar initiative and implementation of provisions in the Lisbon treaty. We will support the We expect the Development Commissioner, Andris principle of increased pooling and sharing among European Piebalgs, to debrief Development Ministers on his visit and NATO partners but resist any calls for the creation to Khartoum and Juba and to update them on the EU’s of additional institutions or processes. plans for joint programming in South Sudan. Additionally, a possible Council decision is expected on the use of EDA Steering Board ¤200 million of de-committed funds from European The agenda for this meeting is currently being finalised. Development Fund (EDF) to support development efforts It will build from the session on capabilities, taking in South Sudan. stock on key capability development projects and initiatives, Accountability Report on EU Development Policy including pooling and sharing and the European Air Transport Fleet (EATF) programme. We are broadly Ministers will discuss the findings of the Commission’s supportive of the EDA’s work in these areas. accountability report on EU development policy. The report assesses progress against the EU’s financing for GENERAL AFFAIRS COUNCIL development commitments and covers official development Croatia assistance (ODA), innovative finance, domestic resource The Commissioner for Enlargement, Stefan Fule, mobilisation, aid for trade, climate finance, co-operation will brief Ministers on Croatia’s progress on its accession with the private sector, and aid effectiveness. The discussion negotiations and the approaching closure of negotiations. is likely to focus on how to achieve the EU aid commitment He is likely to focus on progress within Chapter 23 to spend 0.7% of gross national income on aid by 2015. (Judiciary and Fundamental Rights). This chapter was Ministers will adopt a report on EU ODA performance created to strengthen the accession process after the last in 2010, to be considered by the June European Council. EU enlargement. The Government will continue to This report is a welcome means of holding other member monitor Croatia’s progress and ensure that this chapter states to account. We will continue to press others to is closed on the basis of a thorough technical assessment fulfil their aid commitments. against the benchmarks, including establishing the necessary Water track records to ensure that reforms are sustainable. Beyond this, the Government will ensure that closure of The Hungarian presidency is expected to deliver negotiations as a whole takes place on the basis of proposals on the role of water in EU development rigorous conditionality. policy, for which Council conclusions are due to go through Environmental Council in June. The Government Charter of Fundamental Rights agree that water for growth and development as well as The presidency is seeking agreement to conclusions water supply and sanitation for human development in response to the Commission’s annual report on the need greater policy priority within the EU. We will application of the Charter of Fundamental Rights. The therefore support proposals to update and renew the Council conclusions set out the actions taken by the EU policy on water in EU development co-operation. Council to ensure compliance with the charter, including This should support the efforts to redefine and revitalise the work of the fundamental rights working group to the EU water initiative, set up in 2002 as part of the 33WS Written Ministerial Statements19 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

World Summit on Sustainable Development to mobilise system that commands the confidence of the public and and co-ordinate EU resources to achieve the water-related serves our economic interests. We have made it clear millennium development goals. We believe that water that we will take a robust approach, that we will tighten should be central in preparations for Rio+20 and that up our system, stop abuse and welcome only the most the EU should play a leading role in the preparatory economically beneficial migrants. This Government have processes and conferences. We will continue to insist on already delivered a new annual limit on non-EU economic these points in negotiations with EU partners. migrants and have announced reforms to the student Cote d’Ivoire visa system to be implemented over the course of the This is an opportunity to emphasise the need for firm next year. These measures are aimed at attracting the international support for stabilisation, reconciliation, brightest and the best, while reducing the level of net and justice under President Ouattara’s new Government. migration and tackling abuse. Close co-ordination of international community efforts, People wishing to remain in the UK under the points- appropriately resourced and structured UN involvement; based system are required to submit all relevant evidence active and effective UN agencies; and a UN and EU in support of their application at the time that application sanctions regime that supports the goals of political, is made. This enables caseworkers to make the right economic and social progress will be important. decision in the first instance, often avoiding unnecessary I will deposit copies of this note in the Libraries of and expensive publicly funded appeals. It also protects both Houses. And I will update Parliament on Foreign the integrity of the immigration system, ensuring all and General Affairs Councils after the meetings. necessary checks can be made and any deception identified. But this system has been subject to misuse at the expense of the taxpayer. Individuals already in the UK HEALTH but unsuccessful in their application to extend their time here have been using the appeals system as a free Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer second application process—putting in evidence at the Affairs Council (Luxembourg 6-7 June 2011) appeals stage which should have formed part of their application. Our management information shows that around two thirds of PBS appeals allowed by the tribunal The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health are due to submission of further evidence at appeal. (Anne Milton): The Employment, Social Policy, Health It is not right that the taxpayer should foot the and Consumer Affairs Council will meet on 6 and administrative and appeals bill where this information 7 June. should have been put forward as part of the original The presidency is likely to ask Ministers to debate the application or where a second application including all sustainability of care systems and health issues related the necessary information, for which we will charge, is to migration. the most appropriate route to securing a grant of leave. The presidency is also expected to propose the adoption Section 19 will restrict the type of new evidence that can of Council conclusions on the following: be taken into account by the tribunal. It will prevent the European pact for mental health and well-being: results circumvention of checks, helping restore public confidence and future action; in our immigration system and contribute to wider successes and challenges of European childhood immunisation improvements to reduce the overall cost of the appeals and the way forward; system. towards modem, responsive and sustainable health systems; The commencement order will come into force on and 23 May and will apply to all appeals heard for the first innovation in the medical device sector. time against refusals of applications to remain in the The UK supports the adoption of these Council UK under the points-based system, regardless of the conclusions. date that appeal was lodged. Appeals that have been Under any other business, information will be provided part or fully heard by the first-tier tribunal (immigration from the presidency on antimicrobial resistance and on and asylum chamber) by this date will not be affected. a number of conferences that took place under their presidency. The Polish delegation will give information Equality and Human Rights Commission (Triennial on the priorities for their forthcoming presidency, which Review) will run from July 2011 until the end of the year.

The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): The HOME DEPARTMENT first triennial review of the Equality and Human Rights Commission “How Fair Is Britain?” was laid before the Section 19 of the United Kingdom Borders Act 2007 House on 11 October last year. A second printing which incorporates a small number of typographical changes has now been laid before the House. Copies will be The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): Section made available in the Vote Office. 19 of the UK Borders Act 2007 will come into force on 23 May 2011. Section 19 restricts the evidence an appellant can rely on at such an appeal to that which is submitted Justice and Home Affairs Council to and considered by the UK Border Agency in support of an application. The Secretary of State for the Home Department Reforming the immigration system and reducing the (Mrs Theresa May): The Extraordinary Council which level of immigration to a sustainable number is one of focused on interior issues was held on 12 May in Brussels. the big tasks of this Government. Our goal is an improved I represented the United Kingdom. 35WS Written Ministerial Statements19 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS

The Council started with an EU ministerial breakfast incentives or visa liberalisation. The UK would not with the Director of the Joint Situation Centre (SitCen) want to see a single system of European border guards, who presented his assessment of the situation following but did support greater co-ordination and co-operation. the death of Osama bin Laden and changes in north We were surprised to see proposals for further Africa. Gilles de Kerchove, EU Counter-terrorism harmonisation given current high-levels of unemployment Co-ordinator, highlighted that cargo security was a within Europe. On asylum, the UK was clear that any priority for the EU and engagement with north African talk of invoking the temporary protection directive was countries was essential. The UK noted that the death of premature and that it did not support relocation proposals Osama bin Laden was a strategic blow but the risk as they carry a risk of acting as a pull factor to the UK. remained serious including from reprisal attacks and The UK was supportive of any reforms decided on by the events in north Africa served to undermine the the Schengen countries that would help combat illegal al-Qaeda narrative. immigration and strengthen the external border. Free movement was an ideal at the heart of the EU, but it Next the Mixed Committee with Norway, Iceland, was an ideal that was jeopardised when abused. Every Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states), action had to ensure that member states could maintain received a state of play update on the Frontex regulation. fair and robust immigration systems, and do nothing to The presidency said they would not be able to reach create an incentive for illegal immigration into Europe. agreement with the European Parliament by June unless member states were flexible. Compromise would be The main Council commenced with the Commission necessary on several of the Parliament’s demands, including outlining its proposals for a revised strategy on EU the precise name of its proposed “European Border readmission agreements. The Commission defended Guard System”. The presidency stressed that the whole increased references to human rights provisions and the deal should not collapse because of disagreements over introduction of a post-returns monitoring mechanism terminology. The UK is excluded from the Frontex for returnees. If member states wanted the European regulation; however the UK can support activities on a Parliament to agree to future negotiating mandates, case-by-case basis with the agreement of the Frontex they would have to accept an enhanced profile for management board. human rights. The UK believed that readmission agreements were operational instruments for facilitating Next there was a discussion on immigration, preparing returns and protection needs were already carefully the forthcoming June European Council discussion on considered before a return decision is reached. Therefore migration and the Commission communication on it was not necessary to include additional references to migration. Commissioner Malmström introduced the human rights in the agreements. Any decision on whether communication and set out the Commission’s priorities it is safe to return, an individual should be made on a across all aspects of EU immigration and asylum policy. case-by-case basis and the Commission’s proposed blanket She put particular emphasis on: an effective EU response approach to suspending returns was misguided. The to developments in north Africa; agreeing a package UK added that the Commission’s proposal for a post-return deal on asylum; building conditionality into the monitoring mechanism was inappropriate as it could EU’s third-country agreements to deliver immigration put returnees at risk. The UK stated that the starting results; and effectively combining mobility with security. point for any readmission strategy should be a country’s On reintroducing intra-Schengen border controls, obligation to readmit their own nationals and co-operation Commissioner Malmström underlined the fundamental should not be solely dependent on incentives such as importance of Schengen, highlighting that (based on visa facilitation. The UK supported the Commission’s existing legislation and an EU-level approach), the proposal to refocus its readmission strategy on key Commission’s proposals would reinforce, not undermine, countries, but noted that objective criteria would be the Schengen framework. Guidelines would address needed as member states would have different geographical differing interpretation of the rules, and new co-decision priorities. The presidency said they would draft Council proposals would strengthen Schengen monitoring and conclusions (which would make reference to the importance evaluation to better define when and how controls of human rights) for consideration at the June JHA could be used; that is, in exceptional circumstances and Council. through an EU-level procedure. The Council received an update on the situation in The UK stated that, in order to achieve tangible Japan at the request of Belgium. The Commission said results, the immediate priorities had to be border security, that member states had made an impressive contribution returns and practical support to member states. The to the effort in Japan, but that this had been a wake-up UK wanted to see a border control taskforce sent to call. The Commission had developed an action plan Tunisia to support capacity-building, provide technical and had already started to implement the communication assistance and support Frontex’s efforts against people on strengthening disaster response. There was a need to smuggling. On returns, the EU should do more to help prioritise scenario development, and they would be return third-country nationals in north Africa back to developing legislative proposals by the end of the year. their countries of origin. We were seeing increased The presidency said that the subject should be further numbers of asylum claims already; the Support Office discussed at the working level. should help responsible member states deal with them. Relocation was not the answer. The UK said that The Commission presented its evaluation report on co-operation on migration should be an integral part of the data retention directive. Most member states seem the EU’s partnerships with third countries. Building to be happy with the current directive, but it was a stability and prosperity was in everyone’s interests, and flexible instrument and there were large differences in would help relieve migratory pressure. But the EU had how it is implemented. Member states had the opportunity to reinforce the principle that each country must readmit to revise the directive and the Commission would submit its own nationals—that was not dependent on financial a proposal later this year. The UK said that retained 37WS Written Ministerial Statements19 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS communications data were a critical tool. Ninety-five The charter will for the first time provide a national per cent of serious crime investigations used retained framework that sets out the standards of service that data, as had all major counter-terrorism investigations. bereaved family members, witnesses and other properly It was also used on a daily basis to secure convictions interested persons in a coroner’s investigation can expect and alibis. The UK did not wish to see changes made in to receive from the coroner service in England and the name of harmonisation since it should not undermine Wales. It will ensure that all coroner offices in England operational effectiveness. and Wales know the standards they should already be Finally, over lunch Ministers discussed the asylum meeting, and that bereaved people and other service aspects of the Commission’s communication on migration. users know their rights and responsibilities throughout The presidency and Commission tried to set up a political the investigation process. The charter will also clarify deal on asylum at the June European Council. The what options are available if someone wishes to make a Commission said it was time to compromise; technical complaint against the level of service received or against meetings could go on for years a package deal was a coroner. I must stress that we are not imposing any needed to break the deadlock of red lines that included new obligations on coroners. We are merely setting out an emergency mechanism in Dublin in return for law for the first time, in an accessible and transparent enforcement access to Eurodac. Recognising that they format, what the current standards are. were the most difficult directives, Commissioner Malmström I propose to publish the draft charter alongside the set out the features of the forthcoming amended proposals Ministry of Justice’s current “Guide to Coroners and on procedures and reception conditions (simplification, Inquests”, which sets out the role of a coroner and the clarification and reduction of financial and administrative investigation process. This is so that people can access burdens). The scope for using accelerated procedures information about the process, and the standards that would be extended and it would be easier to reject should be met, in one booklet. No major changes have repeated abusive claims. been proposed to the guide and therefore I am not There would be more flexibility on border procedures consulting on the guide itself. The guide and the charter to address national security and public order concerns will be updated as and when changes to the coroner and a lower reporting burden. Access to the labour system are introduced. market could be delayed if applicants did not co-operate. This publication marks the latest in a number of The UK opened the discussion: the goals of the EU’s steps that the Government plan to undertake to bring engagement in asylum had to be practical, not legislative— about much-needed improvements to the coroner system. both in relation to the current situation, and looking to The charter will be followed by a review of coroners’ the long-term. Refugees had to be protected, but protected rules and regulations, development of guidance for where they were—they should not be expected to move coroners and their officers and implementation of key around the EU. The Asylum Support Office would help provisions in the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. member states do that (as with the Greece action plan), In taking this work forward I am also considering but further legislation to meet an artificial deadline was how best we achieve, maintain and monitor those changes a distraction. The UK could not support an emergency in the absence of a chief coroner. I continue to have mechanism under Dublin—it would undermine the very positive discussions with Parliamentarians, the judiciary principle of member state responsibility for asylum and representatives from civil society groups about the claims, remove the incentive to make necessary reforms, transfer functions of the chief coroner, including the move the problem from one place to another, and leadership role, and we will be making a statement would encourage asylum seekers to target particular setting out the Government’s plans in more detail in the member states (knowing they could then move to their near future. destination of choice). The presidency would ask Copies of the consultation paper have been placed in COREPER to try to prepare a package for political the Libraries of both Houses, in the Vote Office and in agreement at the European Council. the Printed Paper Office. The document is also available online,at:http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/consultations. htm. The consultation on the draft charter will run until 5 September 2011. A response paper and the final version JUSTICE of the charter will be published in December 2011.

Draft Charter for the Coroner Service for Consultation LEADER OF THE HOUSE

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Members’ Salaries (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Government are today publishing a draft charter for the coroner service for public consultation. This is part of the Government’s The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George work to drive improvement in the current coroner service Young): During the debate on 21 March 2011, I endorsed to address current inconsistencies and inefficiencies in the principle of ensuring the fully independent the delivery of services across England and Wales. determination and administration of MPs’ salaries. This The draft charter for the coroner service sets out the position received support on both sides of the House. minimum standards expected from coroners. The charter On Tuesday I signed an order to commence section 29 will apply to all bereaved people, witnesses and other of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 interested persons who come into contact with the and related consequential provisions. This order has the coroner service. effect of transferring to the Independent Parliamentary 39WS Written Ministerial Statements19 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

Standards Authority responsibility for the determination on the country’s economic recovery. Tackling the causes of Members’ salaries, finally removing from the House of congestion and keeping traffic moving is a vital any role in setting the level of Members’ pay. The order element in securing the UK’s prosperity. will commence the relevant provisions on Tuesday 24 May As such, we completed a review of motorway closure 2011. incidents to identify what improvements could be made Copies of the Constitutional Reform and Governance to achieve the shortest timeline possible for managing Act 2010 (Commencement No. 5) Order 2011 (SI 2011 such incidents. No. 1274 (C. 52)) will be made available in the Vote The review led by this Department makes 10 Office. recommendations, the delivery of which will ensure that there is overall improvement in the time taken to reopen motorways following an incident. The recommendations TRANSPORT are contained within the report. I am also announcing DFT funding of around £3 million for laser scanning technology that can be used by the Review of Investigation/Closure Procedures for police for surveying incident scenes. Recent trials by the Motorway Incidents police and HA have demonstrated that this can make a real difference in speeding up the investigation process. The £3 million will be used to set up a fund which police The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport forces can bid from to put towards the purchase of this (Mike Penning): Today, I am publishing the preliminary technology. The fund will take a match funding approach report on investigation and closure procedures for motorway thereby potentially enabling a larger number of forces incidents. The joint review carried out by my Department, to purchase and use this equipment across the strategic the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), the road network and local road network. Highways Agency (HA), and the Home Office, looked at what needs to be done to reduce the duration of Later today, I will be chairing a national summit with motorway closure incidents and help keep our motorways representatives from all key incident management parties moving. The report can be found on my Department’s to discuss the review’s findings, and to formally agree website, www.dft.gov.uk, and an electronic copy has the high-level action plan on the way forward. The been lodged with the House Library. majority of the review’s recommendations are expected to be completed by the end of the year, and we remain As set out within my Department’s business plan, the on track to deliver on a further business plan commitment review supports this Government’s vision for a transport to set up and implement measures to reduce congestion system, which is an engine for economic growth, and caused by incidents by December 2012. I am confident their commitment to tackling the causes of congestion that by having open dialogue and by continuing to work and unreliability on the strategic road network. closely with the emergency services and colleagues across Motorway closures in England cost the economy Government in this collaborative manner, we can manage around £1 billion a year which is an unacceptable brake incidents effectively, efficiently and consistently.

1P Petitions19 MAY 2011 Petitions 2P

Sheweth, that the Petitioner believes that the Petitions Government’s proposals have two flaws; that a family with both parents earning a salary less than the higher-rate Thursday 19 May 2011 tax threshold, which could total around £88,000, will continue to receive the benefit; and that, if both parents earn a salary that is half that earned by the Petitioner, OBSERVATIONS £22,250, not only will they continue to receive the benefit, but they also receive two tax-free allowances for their salaries. Sheweth, that the Petitioner believes that revisions TRANSPORT are necessary to the Child Benefit system; that the Coastguard Services (Falmouth) family income should be taken into account, not just the income of one of the individuals in a family; that The Petition of readers of the Falmouth Packet newspaper, the Petitioner recognises that this is expensive, but he and others, believes that it is the fairest way to judge a family’s Declares that the petitioners believe that Falmouth income and hence its needs for benefit; that, if this is Coastguard must be retained as a 24 hour a day operation, not possible, then a gradual phasing out of the benefit because the experience and expertise of the Falmouth for earners over the higher rate tax threshold would be Coastguard could not safely be transferred elsewhere. very easy to implement; that it would be easy to reduce Child Benefit by one percentage point for every £1,000 The Petitioners therefore request that the House of earned over the higher tax threshold; that this would Commons urges the Secretary of State for Transport to still leave a majority of the benefit for those earners, require the Maritime and Coastguard Agency to take such as the Petitioner, who only just enter this limit; and into account the views of residents of Falmouth in the that it would also remove Child Benefit for those who course of its consultation on the future of the Coastguard. earn over £144,000. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Sarah Wherefore your Petitioner prays that your Honourable Newton, Official Report, 28 April 2011; Vol. 527, c. 418.] House urges the Government to review its policy on [P000919] Child Benefit. Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: And your Petitioner, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c.—[Presented by Sir Alan Beith, Official Report, The Government are aware of the strength of feeling 1 February 2011; Vol. 522, c. 828 .] about the proposals to migrate Falmouth maritime rescue co-ordination (MRCC) to a daytime only sub-centre [P000882] within a national network of a small number of maritime Observations from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, operations centres supported by sub-centres. Treasury: The Government are proud of Her Majesty’s coastguard The Chancellor considered a number of different and value the work currently carried out by operational options relating to Child Benefit including how any coastguards at Falmouth. Under the proposed new change should be delivered. As part of a balanced arrangements, all the systems operated at Falmouth package to deal with Britain’s record budget deficit, the would be networked across the UK so that any search Government will, from January 2013, withdraw Child and rescue incident can be co-ordinated from any location. Benefit from families with a higher rate taxpayer. The Chancellor wanted to avoid creating a complex new An independent team of 12 experienced coastguard means test for household income that would have practitioners is reviewing all responses to the consultation fundamentally changed the nature of Child Benefit. launched on 16 December 2010 and will take account of Withdrawing Child Benefit from households with a this petition in their deliberations. Once the Government higher rate taxpayer can be done within existing PAYE have considered the advice of the independent review and Self-assessment systems. This means that HMRC team and the Transport Select Committee’s report, the do not need to contact all 7.8 million households in way forward will be announced. receipt of Child Benefit. From a customer perspective, this delivery option does not place a burden on all Child Benefit claimants, it limits the impact to those households TREASURY containing a higher rate taxpayer. Affected families are within the top 20% of the Child Benefit incomes of all families (including those without children). The Humble Petition of Mr Paul Francis Dodd, Currently the threshold for a higher rate taxpayer is around £42,500. At a time when many difficult decisions Sheweth, that the Petitioner believes that the have to be taken, it is not fair that people on low Government’s recent announcement regarding Child incomes go on being taxed to pay for the Child Benefit Benefit is unfair; that the Petitioner is a married man of those earning much more. Families with no higher with daughter aged two years, whose salary is £44,500 rate taxpayer who receive Child Benefit, which is around p.a., which is just inside the threshold for a higher rate 80% of all families claiming Child Benefit, will be tax payer; that the Petitioner’s wife gave up work to unaffected by this policy. Child Benefit will continue to look after their daughter and has no income; and that be paid in the normal way to the great majority of the from 2013 the Petitioner and his wife will not be entitled population, from birth until a child leaves full time to receive Child Benefit. education at the age of 18 or even 19.

275W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 276W

(b) benefit from the choice of undertakings and services available Written Answers to to the majority of end-users. To this end, Ofcom are currently undertaking a review Questions of relay services, the objective of which is to assess whether current arrangements for the provision of relay services are adequate in delivering equivalence to voice Thursday 19 May 2011 telephony for hearing and speech impaired end-users (including BSL users). Ofcom expect to publish a consultation document this summer, and a research report which helps inform the review was published on CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT 4 February and can be read at: Departmental Billing http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/market-data-research/ telecoms-research/ofcom-relay-services/ Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what mechanism Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, his Department has established to ensure its payments Olympics, Media and Sport whether his Department are passed through the supply chain to each tier in has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated any cost- accordance with the last date for payment defined in benefit analysis of introducing a universal video relay service. [56150] the Government’s Fair Payment guidance. [55895]

John Penrose: The Department does not hold information Mr Vaizey: The Department has not commissioned, on the time taken by its contractors (tier one suppliers) nor evaluated, any cost benefit analysis on the introduction to pay their sub-contractors (tier two suppliers). We of a universal video relay service. remain committed to paying invoices to tier one suppliers Ofcom are currently undertaking a review of relay within five working days. We are a signatory to the services, the objective of which is to assess whether Prompt Payment Code and continue to work closely current arrangements for the provision of relay services with our tier one suppliers to ensure that the benefits are adequate in delivering equivalence to voice telephony are felt throughout the supply chain by: for hearing (including BSL users) and speech impaired reviewing payment performance at meetings with suppliers as end-users. Ofcom expect to publish a consultation document part of the standard contract management process; this summer. This review will involve looking at, among ensuring all new contracts with tier one suppliers include a other things, the existing text relay service and additional provision requiring the tier one supplier to pay the tier two relay services including video relay and captioned telephony. supplier within 30 days; and It will include a cost benefit analysis of the options. enabling tier two suppliers to report any concerns they feel have not been adequately addressed direct to the Department or via Ofcom commissioned research to help inform this the Office of Government Commerce’s supplier feedback process. review and a report was published on 4 February and can be read at: Departmental Data Protection http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/market-data-research/ telecoms-research/ofcom-relay-services/ Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for However, any decision on relay services will have to Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many contracts be made following a process of review, consultation, his Department holds which allow contractors to store cost benefit analysis and a proportionality test. personal data of UK citizens overseas; to which contracts this applies; in which countries the data for each such contract is held; and how many people have their data Television: Local Broadcasting stored overseas under each such contract. [55735]

John Penrose: The Department hold no contracts of Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for this nature. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he has made of the potential number of jobs to be created Telecommunications: Hearing Impairment from the establishment of a new national television spine for local television. [55701] Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment he has Mr Vaizey: The local TV framework that will eventually made of the adequacy of text relay services for British be put in place will enable the growth of a new market Sign Language users. [56149] that will employ a range of people to commission, produce and operate local TV services. Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) has made no assessment of the adequacy of text relay services for British Sign Language users. Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Under revisions to the EU Electronic Communications Olympics, Media and Sport by what date he expects the which are currently being implemented by DCMS, Ofcom new national television spine for local television to be in will be able to specify, where appropriate, requirements place; and if he will make a statement. [55702] to ensure that disabled end-users: (a) have access to electronic communications services equivalent Mr Vaizey: A statement on next steps and timetable to that enjoyed by the majority of end-users; and for implementation will be made in due course. 277W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 278W

Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Water: The target was to reduce water consumption by 12% by Olympics, Media and Sport which organisations have 2010-11, relative to 2008-09 which was exceeded. Consumption submitted bids to operate a new national television was reduced by 18.0% on 2008-09 levels. The main contributor was the more efficient use of borehole water for cooling in spine supporting local television. [55712] Portcullis house. Mr Vaizey: The Local Media Action Plan published Waste generation: The target was to reduce the volume of in January 2010 invited informal expressions of interest waste generated by 10% by 2010-11, relative to 2008-09, which the two Houses exceeded. Weight of waste was down 20% on base as part of a two stage consultation process. This was year. not a bidding process. A list of those who responded is Recycling: The target was to recycle 60% of waste generated by available on the Department for Culture, Media and weight by 2010-11. Although the rate of recycling was improved, Sport website: at 49.2% it fell short of the target. Performance has declined due www.culture.gov.uk to reduction in reported amount of glass recycled; the cause continues to be investigated but appears to be due to incorrect Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for historic data from the contractor. The new waste contract due to Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what research his be awarded this summer will require the provider to work in Department has undertaken to assess the economic partnership with the authorities in the two Houses to meet our impact of a new national television spine for local waste recycling targets. television in terms of (a) local economic growth and Times of Sittings (b) creation of local advertising markets. [55715] Harriett Baldwin: To ask the hon. Member for Mr Vaizey: The commercial viability review published Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing in December 2010 carried out by Nicholas Shott, head the House of Commons Commission, what additional of UK investment banking at Lazard, looked at a wide costs were incurred by the House of Commons Service range of issues including economic impact and local in consequence of the continuation of the sitting of the advertising markets. The costs and benefits of the House on Tuesday 3 May between 10.30 pm and Government’s preferred approach will be set out in due 4.34 am on the next day. [56487] course. John Thurso: Full details will not be available until all expenditure claims have been processed: It is likely that HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION many of these will not be received until the end of May. Accommodation The figures currently available include late night transport costs after 11 pm of £2,708 and estimated Hansard Jim Dobbin: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, printing costs of £2,162. I will write to the hon. Member Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of with further details once they are known. Commons Commission, if he will make a statement on the House’s accommodation policy. [56695] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT John Thurso: The Commission agreed on 16 May the principles which will underlie future policy on the Audit Commission: Government Procurement Card parliamentary estate and accommodation. They largely reflect the Administration Committee’s proposals of Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006, while also taking account of the savings programme. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Proposals in the next few months for putting the principles answer of 26 April 2011, Official Report, column 195W, into practice will be subject to consultation. I am placing on the Government Procurement Card, what the purpose in the Library of the House the statement of principles. was of each meal purchased by the Audit Commission Parliament: Environment Protection using the Government Procurement Card in 2008-09 at (a) L’Escargot, (b) Bar and Grill, (c) Smollensky’s, Jim Dobbin: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, (d) RSJ Restaurant, (e) Cinnamon Club, (f) Bar and Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Kitchen, (g) Imperial China, (h) Boulevard Brasserie, Commons Commission, whether the environmental (i) Grumbles, (j) Sirenas, (k) Bank and (l) Benton Bar targets set for the parliamentary estate for 2010-11 were Brasserie; and who attended each such meal. [54581] achieved. [56694] Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the John Thurso: Four targets were set, and significant Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive progress has been made in all four areas, as follows. In of the Audit Commission to respond to my hon. Friend particular, for the second year running the two Houses direct. have reduced their carbon emissions. Two of the targets Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 19 May 2011: were missed and further work will be needed to meet the Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me to reply. demanding targets set for future years. The payments to (a) L’Escargot were for a dinner for representatives Carbon emissions: The target was to reduce carbon emissions of London Councils with senior Audit Commission staff, and a (resulting from energy consumption) by 7% by 2010-11, relative leaving dinner for a senior Audit Commission member of staff. to 2008-09. For the second year running the two Houses reduced The leaving dinner was fully reimbursed to the Commission by their absolute emissions but this year the target was missed by attendees, and therefore at no cost to the public purse. 1.0%. The target does not take account of space heating requirements Attendees for the London Councils dinner were: and so this measure was considerably affected by the winter weather conditions. When weather factors are taken into account Michael O’Higgins, Chairman the reduction beat the target by 0.7%. Steve Bundred, Chief Executive 279W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 280W

Cllr Sir Merrick Cockell, Chairman & Leader Kensington & Andrew Stunell: The Government are committed to Chelsea exploring a full range of measures to bring empty Stuart Fraser, Chairman, Policy & Resources Committee, City homes back into use. As part of this we recently announced of London that the New Homes Bonus—which rewards local Cllr Sean Brennan, Leader, Sutton authorities for new housing development—will include Cllr Michael White, Leader, Havering both new homes and empty properties brought back Mayor Jules Pipe, Mayor, Hackney into use. This means that an authority will receive the Cllr James Kempton, Leader, Islington same bonus for bringing an empty home back into use as for the building of a new home. Mike More, Chief Executive, Westminster Rob Whiteman, Chief Executive, Barking & Dagenham We have also allocated £100 million capital funding to tackle some of the most difficult empty homes. John O’Brien, Chief Executive, London Councils Proposals for how these funds will be distributed are The payments for (b) Bar and Grill, (c) Smolensky’s, (d) RSJ currently being developed and a further announcement Restaurant, (f) Bar and Kitchen, (g) Imperial China, (h) Boulevard will be made once the detail of this proposal has been Brasserie, (i) Grumbles, (j) Sirenas and (l) Benton Bar Brasserie were for staff Christmas meals. Prior to 2009 each Audit Commission finalised. employee was given a £30 contribution towards their team Christmas Government are also taking a new approach to meal or party. Generally, employees pooled their contributions regeneration and growth—putting residents, local and put them towards a Christmas lunch or dinner. The Audit businesses, civil society organisations and civil leaders Commission ceased Christmas contributions to staff in 2009. in the driving seat. We are providing them with local The payment to (e) Cinnamon Club (£230.29) is published in rewards and incentives to drive growth and improve the our hospitality and expenses register on the Audit Commission’s social and physical quality of their areas. website. The dinner was attended by: Energy Performance Certificates Michael O’Higgins, Chairman Steve Bundred, Chief Executive Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Rt Hon Oliver Letwin MP Communities and Local Government what assessment The second payment was for a staff meeting and was fully he has made of the effects on supply of properties for reimbursed by attendees, and therefore at no cost to the public holiday let of the requirement for such properties to purse. have energy performance certificates from 30 June The payments to (k) Bank is published in our hospitality and 2011. [55573] expenses register on the Audit Commission’s website. Both payments were for dinners with London councils. Andrew Stunell: The Department published an impact Attendees were: assessment which estimated the likely costs and benefits Steve Bundred, Chief Executive and Colin Barrow, Leader of requiring certain properties rented out as holiday lets Westminster to have an energy performance certificate. The impact and; assessment found that the cost of a certificate was Steve Bundred, Chief Executive and Mike More, Chief Executive about £75 and that the measure would deliver savings to Westminster the industry of approximately £0.15 million per year. Because the information requested includes personal information, The assessment can be found at: we have been unable to disclose the names of more junior staff http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningand who attended meals in b), c), d) f), g). h), i), j) and l) as this would building/epcholidayletsia be a breach of the first principle of the Data Protection Act. Gurkhas: Resettlement Eco-towns Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) (a) how Communities and Local Government what funding streams many and (b) which local authorities have submitted he expects to make available for eco-town developments requests to his Department for additional resources to other than from the New Homes Bonus. [56381] support newly-settled former Gurkhas; [56139] Grant Shapps: I refer my hon. Friend to the White (2) if he will assess the living conditions of former Paper “Local Growth Realising Every Places Potential” Gurkhas who have settled in the UK since 2009; and if published on 28 October 2010, which sets out a range of he will make a statement; [56159] policies and incentives to support locally led growth, (3) if he will assess the resources required to support including eco-town developments. The document can newly-settled former Gurkhas; and if he will make a be found at: statement. [56161] http://businesslink.gov.uk/Horizontal_Services_files/ local_growth_white_paper.pdf Grant Shapps: The Government have recognised the issue of inward migration and the potential difficulties Empty Property that this can cause in some areas. In the past, population figures did not accurately reflect the extent of general David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for immigration. However, for the first time Formula Grant Communities and Local Government what steps he is is informed by more accurate and timely population taking to bring disused residential properties back into estimates developed through Phase 1 of the Migration use; and what strategy his Department has developed to Statistics Improvement Programme. This means that ensure that such areas of multiple deprivation become those areas that have experienced increased population sustainable and socially-mixed communities. [55791] growth over recent years will receive a larger grant 281W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 282W allocation. At the same time, the Government have I also refer the hon. Member to my earlier answer to reduced ring fencing and ended costly central reporting him of 12 May 2011, Official Report, column 1321W, requirements. These changes mean local authorities on FirstBuy, which will make home ownership more themselves will be able in future to decide how best to affordable to 10,000 first time buyers. address the impacts of immigration on their areas. The New Homes Bonus specifically rewards the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth construction of new affordable housing. Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), recognises the difficulties some Land: Databases local authorities are experiencing as a result of specifically Nepalese migration. He has met with representatives Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for from Rushmoor borough council to discuss this, and Communities and Local Government pursuant to the has offered to speak to the Local Government Association answer of 10 May 2011, Official Report, column 1181W, to see how local authorities can work together to attract on land: databases, when his Department plans to publish those settling in this country to a wider area. The Cross a timetable for tendering for the future provision of the Government Working Group on Gurkhas has also been supply of aerial photography and height data following reconvened at the Prime Minister’s request to continue the cessation of the Pan Government Agreement. to monitor the concerns and challenges created by the [56418] 2009 immigration policy change for Gurkhas. Local authorities have powers, under the Housing Andrew Stunell: No decisions have been made on the Act 2004, to assess the risks and hazards in residential future provision for the supply of aerial photography properties using the Housing Health and Safety Rating and height data once the current contract ends. System. If a property is found to contain serious (category Religious Buildings: Planning 1) hazards, the local authority has a duty to take the most appropriate action. This could range from trying to deal with the problems informally at first to prohibiting Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the use of the whole or part of the dwelling. This system Communities and Local Government if he will consider provides an important safety net, ensuring that homes the merits of bringing forward amendments to the are safe and free of hazards which pose a significant Localism Bill on the provision of guidance to local risk to the occupant. It is in local authority’s interests to planning authorities on the recognition of the importance collect information across all housing tenures through of places of worship as part of social infrastructure. housing condition surveys and to decide on the best [56132] approach for their area. Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) on 18 May 2011, Official Report, columns Housing: Construction 230-31W.

Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of the potential effects on (a) the cost of NORTHERN IRELAND housing and (b) council waiting lists of his proposals Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers for new housing. [56347]

Grant Shapps: We are investing nearly £4.5 billion in Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern new affordable housing to help deliver up to 150,000 Ireland on what date special advisers in his Department new affordable homes between 2011-12 and 2014-15 in last used the Government car pool to travel in an England. official capacity; and on how many occasions a special adviser in his Department has travelled to their home From April 2011, housing associations have been address using the Government car pool since May 2010. able to offer the new Affordable Rent product. This will [56090] allow us to lever in more private investment than under the old system, to deliver more homes for every pound Mr Paterson: The special adviser in the Northern of subsidy from the taxpayer. Ireland Office has not used the Government car pool in Illustrative modelling of the Affordable Rent policy— any capacity since May 2010. including assumptions about Affordable Rent levels and the average proportion of rent that will met by Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for housing benefit for Affordable Rent properties—will be Northern Ireland how much his Department spent on set out in the impact assessment, due to be published special advisers’ travel by (a) Government car, (b) shortly. private hire car, (c) train, (d) bus, (e) commercial Our wider social housing reforms will provide landlords aircraft and (f) private aircraft since May 2010. [56094] with the freedom to grant more flexible tenancies, freeing up more social housing for those most in need. They Mr Paterson: The Northern Ireland Office has spent will also allow local authorities to decide who should go the following amounts on special advisers’ travel from on their waiting list for social housing. An impact May 2010 to 16 May 2011: assessment covering these proposals is available at: (a) Government car: Nil; http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ (b) Private hire car: Nil; localgovernment/localismsocialhousingfuture (c) Train: £974.06; 283W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 284W

(d) Bus: Nil; United Kingdom voluntary contributions (2005-10) (e) Commercial aircraft: £16,508.67; Programme ¤ (f) Private aircraft: Nil. GRECO 105,000.00 Unlike the previous Administration which routinely Total 247,912.71 used a private jet for travel between Great Britain and Northern Ireland by the Secretary of State, all such journeys since this Administration came to office have 2006 Anti-money laundering measures 43,551.00 been taken on commercial aircraft at a considerable Bern Convention 14,503.26 saving to the taxpayer. HR Commissioner Office 25,335.75 In-Service training programme for 26,123.00 Research educational staff European Youth Foundation 12,584.98 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Language policies 15,179.99 Northern Ireland what (a) longitudinal and (b) other Project “HEREIN” 29,907.50 (i) research and (ii) collection of data his Department has (A) initiated, (B) terminated and (C) amended in Total 167,185.48 the last 12 months; and what such research and data collection exercises undertaken by the Department 2007 HR Commissioner activities 42,859.20 have not been amended in that period. [56766] Human Rights training of Lawyers 71,281.79 In-Service training programme for 10,481.06 Mr Paterson: My Department has not initiated, educational staff terminated or amended any longitudinal or other research Total 124,622.05 or data collection in the last 12 months. Trade Unions 2008 Activities for promoting the effective 62,532.48 observance and full enjoyment of Human Rights Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Modernisation of tools and methods of the 21,807.00 Ireland how many staff of his Department are entitled supervision of execution of the ECHR to work (a) full-time as trade union representatives judgments and (b) part-time on trade union activities; how many Total 84,339.48 such staff are paid more than £25,900 annually; and what the cost to the public purse of employing such 2009 Enhance the Commissioner’s capacity to 20,277.68 staff on such duties was in the latest period for which respond rapidly to actual or potential crisis figures are available. [56447] situations Promoting and monitoring biological 27,384.21 Mr Paterson: My Department does not have any staff diversity policies through the Bern that are (a) entitled to work full-time as trade union Convention representatives, or (b) any part-time staff who are Total 47,661.89 employed for the purpose of trade union activities. The Northern Ireland Office has staff representatives who 2010 Fight against discrimination 43,195.00 are not paid for this role. Promoting and monitoring biological 11,325.03 diversity policies through the Bern Convention Total 54,520.03 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

Council of Europe: Finance Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what voluntary and Commonwealth Affairs on what date special advisers contributions the Government has made to the costs of in his Department last used the Government car pool to each institution of the Council of Europe in (a) 2010 travel in an official capacity; and on how many occasions and (b) each of the previous five years. [51963] a special adviser in his Department has travelled to their home address using the Government car pool since Mr Lidington: The UK’s voluntary contributions are May 2010. [56083] given in the following table. United Kingdom voluntary contributions (2005-10) Mr Lidington: The special advisers have not used the Programme ¤ Government car pool in any capacity since May 2010. 2005 HR Commissioner Office 47,349.05 European Youth Foundation 7,174.63 South Sudan Support to the programme “Ballons rouges” 28,814.29 Programme Moneyval 43,050.00 Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for In-Service training programme for 1,894.16 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will support educational staff in the UN Security Council the proposed visit by Seminar on counterfeit medicines 2005 14,630.58 representatives of that Council to South Sudan and Abyei. [56570] 285W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 286W

Mr Bellingham: We fully support the proposed visit Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and have made this clear in the Security Council. The and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he UK’s Permanent Representative to the UN will form has had made to the government of Uganda on proposed part of the delegation. legislation imposing the death penalty in respect of certain homosexual acts in that country. [56208] Syria: Politics and Government Mr Bellingham: The Anti-Homosexuality Bill, introduced in the Ugandan Parliament by a private Member, was Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for not passed during the parliamentary term which has Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent just concluded. It remains to be seen whether the private discussions he has had with (a) his counterparts in Member will introduce the Bill in the next Ugandan governments in the middle east and (b) international Parliament. bodies on the political situation in Syria. [56171] I called Foreign Minister Sam Kutesa on 11 May 2011 to raise our strong concerns about the contents of Alistair Burt [holding answer 17 May 2011]: We this private Member’s Bill. In its most recent form, the continue to discuss the situation in Syria with our Bill would have further criminalised homosexuality in international partners including in the middle east, at Uganda by introducing new criminal sanctions for members the UN and within the European Union. In those of sexual minorities and those who promote their rights. discussions we underline the importance of condemning This in turn would have a broader, negative impact on the violence against civilians who are expressing their the human rights of all Ugandans. views in peaceful protests, the need for the Syrian authorities to show restraint and to respond to the Along with international partners, our high commission legitimate demands of people with immediate and genuine in Kampala has lobbied senior Ministers in the Ugandan reform, not brutal repression. Government, including the Prime Minister, over a long period of time to make our position clear on the importance The UK was heavily engaged in the European Union of respect for the rights of sexual minorities worldwide, decision to impose a travel ban and assets freeze on 13 and in doing so we have made clear that we will not individuals in the Syrian regime who are responsible for deviate from this position. the violence. On Friday the Syrian ambassador to London was told that if the violence does not stop immediately and all political prisoners are released, the EU would take further measures including sanctions targeted at the highest levels of the Government. Alongside this ATTORNEY-GENERAL action in the EU we are working to convince others that the UN Security Council should send an unequivocal Crime: Prosecutions message of condemnation of the situation and call for urgent political reform. Richard Fuller: To ask the Attorney-General how many (a) senior executives and (b) directors of Uganda: Homosexuality UK-based financial institutions have been subject to criminal prosecution for financial crimes since July 2007. [55483] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions his The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office has Department has had with (a) civil society and (b) the prosecuted eight directors and six other individuals lesbian, gay, bisexual and transexual community in defined as senior executives of UK financial institutions Uganda on proposed legislation to impose the death since July 2007. The SFO are currently investigating penalty for certain homosexual acts in that country. other cases that involve financial institutions both nationally [56207] and internationally. Mr Bellingham: Our high commission in Kampala is The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) captures a in close touch with Ugandan civil society groups wide range of information on the volume of specific campaigning for the rights of sexual minorities. A recent offences that are charged and reach a first hearing in example of this was their support to those seeking an magistrates courts in its Compass Management Information injunction to prevent the publication of articles in the System. However, these records do not include information Ugandan press which incited hatred towards Uganda’s about the occupation of the defendant to whom these lesbian, gay, bisexual and transexual (LGBT) community. offences relate or the particular circumstances of the charge. Worldwide, the Government are committed to combating The information requested is held on individual case violence and discrimination against LGBT people as an files, and may be retrieved only by locating and examining integral part of their international human rights work. every relevant file in each CPS office in England and The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has a clear Wales which would incur a disproportionate cost. programme for promoting the human rights of LGBT people which focuses on the decriminalisation of homosexuality and fighting against discrimination. This Departmental Mobile Phones includes taking action on individual cases where discrimination has occurred; lobbying for changes in Mike Freer: To ask the Attorney-General what the discriminatory practices and laws; and supporting LGBT name is of each contractor or supplier of (a) mobile human rights defenders during gay pride events, some telephone and (b) mobile data services to the Law of whom face hostile receptions and violence. Officers’ Departments. [56068] 287W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 288W

The Solicitor-General: The information requested is Lynne Featherstone: Women who have experienced outlined as follows: discrimination at work, in training or in the provision of The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) order mobile phones goods and services, because of more than one protected and mobile data services via the CPS telephony contractor, Global characteristic will still be able to bring one or more Crossing. Their service provider is Vodafone. single characteristic claims. The Treasury Solicitor’s Department (TSol) is supplied with It is not possible to estimate the number of claims mobile telephones by Vodaphone, and supplied with mobile data that would not, succeed as single characteristic claims services by Vodafone and Orange. but would succeed because of dual discrimination. The Attorney-General’s Office (AGO), Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate (HMCPSI) and the Serious Left Handed People: Equality Fraud Office (SFO), are supplied with mobile phones and mobile data services by Vodafone. Mr Raab: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities whether (a) the Government Equalities Office and (b) Departmental Travel the Equality and Human Rights Commission has commissioned research into discrimination against left- Maria Eagle: To ask the Attorney-General (1) how handedness. [56232] much each Executive agency of the Law Officers’ Departments has spent on travel by (a) private hire Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 18 May 2011]: vehicles, (b) trains, (c) buses, (d) commercial aircraft The Government Equalities Office has not undertaken and (e) private aircraft since May 2010; [56081] research into discrimination against left-handedness. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has not (2) how much has been spent on travel in respect of undertaken research into discrimination against left- (a) each of the Law Officers’ Departments Executive handedness. agencies and (b) the chief executive of each such agency since May 2010. [56184] JUSTICE The Solicitor-General: The only Executive agency within the Law Officers’ Departments is the Treasury Coroners Solicitor’s Department. Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Travel by civil servants is undertaken in accordance if he will publish the evidential basis on which his with the Civil Service Management Code. decision not to implement the Office of the Chief Coroner The total recorded expenditure for travel and subsistence was based; and if he will make a statement. [56241] for the period 1 May 2010 to 31 March 2011 is £387,490. This includes hotel and subsistence costs as well as all Mr Djanogly: The costs of full implementation of the forms of travel. Office of Chief Coroner and Part One of the Coroners Central accounts are used to book travel and hotels and Justice Act (which provides for the creation of the where practical, but individuals may also be directly office) have been estimated at £6.5 million per year and reimbursed for valid travel and subsistence claims. We £10.9 million set-up costs (including a shadow running are unable to break down the total cost of travel and year). I have now placed a breakdown of these costs in subsistence into the categories requested but expenditure the House Library. The Ministry of Justice’s spending through central accounts (eg Carlson Wagonlit for travel review settlement has no provision for the office of the and hotels) is set out as follows: Chief Coroner. Corruption Expenditure through central Treasury Solicitor’s accounts 1 May 2010 to 31 March Department Agency Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State 2011 (TSol) (£) for Justice pursuant to the answer of 16 March 2011, Private hire vehicles 14,540 Official Report, column 453W, on corruption, which Hotels 106,365 colleagues in other departments, non-governmental Trains 136,993 organisations and other national and international stakeholders he has met to discuss his role as the UK’s Commercial aircraft 34,392 international anti-corruption champion. [56412] Total 292,290 There was no expenditure on private aircraft. Mr Kenneth Clarke: Although it is not constitutional practice to disclose details of ministerial discussions, I Train fares in respect of chief executive travel were can confirm that I have discussed my role as the UK’s £38. He incurred no other travel costs. international anti-corruption champion with Cabinet colleagues, Transparency International UK and the Bond Governance group, as well as the US Attorney-General WOMEN AND EQUALITIES and an academic in the field. I have also discussed the implementation of the Bribery Act with officials from Equality Act 2010 the OECD. Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Mr Bain: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities what assessment she has made of the Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice potential effect on women (a) in work, (b) in training how much his Department spent on special advisers’ and (c) in the provision of services of the decision not travel by (a) Government car, (b) private hire car, (c) to implement the dual discrimination provisions of the train, (d) bus, (e) commercial aircraft and (f) private Equality Act 2010. [49787] aircraft since May 2010. [56095] 289W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 290W

Mr Kenneth Clarke: Excluding those travel costs where Mr Blunt: Each death in custody is a tragedy. The my special advisers have accompanied me on ministerial National Offender Management Service is committed visits, the Ministry of Justice has spent the following on to reducing the number of self-inflicted deaths in prison their travel: (a) £0.00, (b) £0.00, (c) £50.15, (d) £0.00, custody. (e) £0.00, (f) £0.00. Regrettably, there have been three self-inflicted deaths at HMP Risley in the last 12 months. There do not appear to be any immediate common Fixed Penalties factors between the three deaths. Unfortunately, clusters of deaths can occur randomly due to the relatively small Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for numbers involved. Justice what discussions he has had with the Home Each death is subject to an investigation and, since Secretary on the effectiveness of fixed penalty notices; 2004, these have been undertaken by the Prisons and and if he will make a statement. [56572] Probation Ombudsman. Strenuous efforts are made to learn from each death and improve our understanding Mr Blunt: The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of and procedures for caring for prisoners at risk of suicide State for Justice, my right hon. and learned Friend the or self-harm. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), has frequent discussions with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Sexual Offences: Convictions my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), on policy issues that affect both Departments David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for and it is not usual practice to disclose the content of Justice (1) what the conviction rate for each type of those meetings. sexual offence was in each region in each of the last five The Ministry of Justice and the Home Office worked years; [56012] with the Department for Transport to develop proposals (2) what the average length of sentence handed down to introduce a fixed penalty notice (FPN) for the offence by the courts was for each type of sexual offence in each of careless driving and to increase the level of certain region in each of the last five years. [56018] road traffic FPNs, as set out in the Department for Transport’s recently published Strategic Framework for Mr Blunt: Defendants proceeded against at magistrates Road Safety. courts, and found guilty at all courts, the conviction There are a number of FPN schemes in operation ratio, number sentenced, sentence breakdown and average across a wide range of offences which provide the police custodial sentence length, by sexual offence type and and other enforcement agencies with the means to deal region in England and Wales, 2005 to 2009 can be quickly and effectively with low-level offending. Among viewed in the table. A copy of the table will be placed in these are the penalty notice for disorder (PND) scheme the House Library. and FPNs for a number of road traffic offences. Data for 2010 are planned for publication on 26 May The aim of the PND scheme is to allow the police to 2011. impose a swift financial punishment in response to Information for Scotland and Northern Ireland are low-level, nuisance behaviour which provides a practical matters for the Scottish Executive and Northern Ireland deterrent to future offending. The initial payment rate Office respectively. for PNDs was 53% in 2009. Unpaid PNDs are registered as fines by the courts and are indistinguishable from other fines. The overall payment rate for all fines in the financial year to March 2011 was 93%, and the payment CABINET OFFICE rate excluding the value of administrative cancellations for the same period was 80%. 76% of adults and 67% of Census youths who received a PND in 2008 did not go on to reoffend within one year. Alun Cairns: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Fixed penalties for offences in respect of a vehicle Office how many people completed 2011 Census forms provide a quick and simple way of dealing with those in languages other than English. [56349] offences that do not require prosecution, but do require some formal action. In addition and where appropriate, Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the police officers can offer offending drivers the opportunity responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have to attend, at their own expense, an educational course asked the authority to reply. as an alternative to paying the fixed penalty amount Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated May 2011: and receiving the associated penalty points. This helps people become better drivers and further reduces pressure As Director General for the Office for National Statistics (ONS) I have been asked to reply to your recent question to the on the criminal justice system. Minister for the Cabinet Office asking how many people completed 2011 Census forms in languages other than English. 56349 The 2011 Census questionnaires were only available in English Risley Prison: Suicide for households in England, and in both English and Welsh for households in Wales. Translations of the questions into other languages were available as part of the online help. The Census Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice field operation only completed on 9 May and the significant task what consideration he has given to the number of of scanning, processing and quality assuring the data is in its suicides at HMP Prison Risley in the last 12 months; early stages. It is therefore too soon to know how many questionnaires and if he will make a statement. [56525] were not completed in English. 291W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 292W

Damian Hinds: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Departmental Responsibilities Office when he expects the Office for National Statistics to publish complete neighbourhood statistics datasets for England and Wales at ward level based on Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Minister for the the 2011 Census. [56506] Cabinet Office whether his Department plans to cease to fund any of its functions over the period of the Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the comprehensive spending review. [55193] responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office during 2010-11 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated May 2011: implemented a wide range of measures to reduce cost As Director General for the Office for National Statistics which will provide benefits throughout the spending (ONS) I have been asked to reply to your recent question to the review period. Key among these has been the creation Minister for the Cabinet Office asking when he expects the Office of the Efficiency and Reform Group, which has brought for National Statistics to publish complete neighbourhood statistics together a range of functions allowing it to drive substantial datasets for England and Wales at ward level based on the 2011 Census. 56506 efficiencies and reforms in civil service HR, ICT,commercial and procurement, estates and other support functions. The field operation for the 2011 Census in England and Wales was completed only on 9 May and the significant task of processing The ERG has also changed the way in which these and quality assuring the data has now started. The timetable and functions are carried out as between the Centre and detailed content of the several releases of outputs from the Departments, allowing it over the two years to 31 Census are not yet finalised. The first release is aimed for July March 2012 to reduce the headcount and cost of its 2012 and will comprise the sex/age distributions for local authorities’ aggregated functions by around one-third. The ERG areas. ONS is expecting to release the first outputs at ward level in has now embarked on substantial reforms of arrangements Autumn 2012, but the detailed content and means of dissemination for learning and development within the civil service, of these will not be finalised until the 2011 Census output affecting the National School for Government; for prospectus is published early in 2012. procurement by Government Departments, affecting Buying Solutions; and government marketing and Civil Servants: Early Retirement advertising, affecting the Central Office of Information. Further savings will come from changes to the structure John Mann: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet of and programmes run by the Office for Civil Society Office what estimate his Department has made of the (OCS). Some functions of the former Social Exclusion number of civil servants likely to take early retirement Taskforce ceased when OCS was formed. These included during the spending review period. [22865] responsibility for social exclusion policy and a number of community-related grant programmes (e.g. grassroots Mr Maude: The civil service pension scheme rules grants, community assets fund) which have now been allow civil servants to retire and draw their pension realigned with this Government’s priorities. from either age 50 or age 55, depending on the date they joined the scheme. Where individuals draw pension Elsewhere within the Department, other structural before pension age (generally 60 or 65, depending on changes have flowed from the review of arm’s length pension terms), an actuarial adjustment applies. In bodies. In particular, two sponsored non-departmental practice, civil servants retire at a range of ages, with public bodies (Capacitybuilders and Commissioner for many choosing to work on beyond pension age. the Compact) have also been closed. There have also been smaller scale changes within the National Security We have no specific estimate of the number of early Secretariat flowing from the creation of the National retirements during the spending review period. Security Council and Office of Cyber Security, and publication of this Government’s National Security Community Relations Strategy.

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Minister for the Paul Flynn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Cabinet Office whether the Behavioural Insight Unit when officials in his Department last met representatives has undertaken any work on the recent popular of (a) Serco, (b) Capita, (c) A4e and (d) G4S; what protests in North Africa and the Middle East. [56391] aspects of Government policy were discussed at such meetings; and whether future meetings with those Mr Maude: The Behavioural Insight Unit has not companies are planned. [55754] undertaken any such work.

Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Mr Maude: Officials in the Cabinet Office meet with a variety of companies and outside interest groups on a regular basis. Details of all such meetings are not held Maria Eagle: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet centrally and to collate this in the form requested would Office how much his Department spent on special incur disproportionate cost. advisers’ travel by (a) Government car, (b) private hire car, (c) train, (d) bus, (e) commercial aircraft and (f) Details of meetings between Permanent Secretaries private aircraft since May 2010. [56098] and outside interest groups are published quarterly on the Cabinet Office website and are available at: Mr Maude: Since May 2010, the Cabinet Office has http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/cabinet- spent £6.50 on private hire cars, £102.00 on train journeys office-permanent-secretaries%E2%80%99-meetings-external- and £1,505 on commercial aircraft for its special advisers. organisations 293W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 294W

SCOTLAND in a government car. The Scotland Office no longer has a contract with the Government Car Service. Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers

Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for on what date special advisers in his Department last Scotland how much his Department spent on special used the Government car pool to travel in an official advisers’ travel by (a) Government car, (b) private hire capacity; and on how many occasions a special adviser car, (c) train, (d) bus, (e) commercial aircraft and (f) in his Department has travelled to their home address private aircraft since May 2010. [56093] using the Government car pool since May 2010. [56085] David Mundell: The Scotland Office spend on travel David Mundell: The Scotland Office does not hold by special advisers between 10 May 2010 and 30 April details of which occasions the special adviser travelled 2011 is shown in the following table:

Spend (£) Special adviser 1 Special adviser 2 Special adviser 3 20 to 29 May 2010 20 May to 9 July 2010 5 July 2010 to date

(a) Government car service 0 0 0 (b) Private hire car 0 0 125 (c) Train 0 226 333 (d) Bus 0 0 0 (e) Commercial aircraft 261 1,675 7,838 (f) Private aircraft 0 0 0

Devolution Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will meet hon. and right hon. Members Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland representing Scottish constituencies to discuss the what estimate he has made of the likely effect of the Scottish Grand Committee. [56520] changes to funding arrangements proposed in the Scotland Bill on the level of per capita Government Michael Moore: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary expenditure in Scotland. [56522] of State and I are always happy to meet hon. and right hon. Members representing Scottish constituencies to David Mundell: It is not possible to make a realistic or discuss any issues they wish to raise. accurate assessment of future per capita Government expenditure. Following the implementation of the Scotland Bill, the level of per capita Government expenditure in Scotland will be determined through a combination of the spending review, decisions of Scottish Ministers over the rates of the devolved taxes and the rate of economic growth in Scotland and the UK. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

Offshore Industry: Profits

Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Fisheries: Quotas Scotland pursuant to the answer of 9 May 2011, Official Report, column 948W, on offshore industry, Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for what proportion of pre-tax profits in the oil and gas Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what share of sector in 2011 he estimates can be attributed to the (a) the sea fishing quota is held by fishermen using vessels oil and (b) gas sector. [56011] of under 10 metres. [56200] Michael Moore: It is not possible to estimate the split Richard Benyon: The opening quota for the 10 metre of taxable profits between oil and gas as they are taxed and under fleet is boosted by fisheries administrations together. acquiring additional quota in-year for their use. Information on the under 10 metre fleet’s share of quota at 31 December Scottish Grand Committee 2010 is in Table 1. However, focusing on such an analysis can be misleading, as some of the quota stocks included Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for are of little interest to inshore vessels. In addition, many Scotland whether he has any plans to bring forward of these vessels catch types of fish, such as crabs and proposals for a meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee; scallops, which are not subject to the constraints on and if he will make a statement. [56430] their activity that may be seen when targeting quota species. Figures for landings of quota stocks and non-quota Michael Moore: The Scottish Grand Committee has stocks are also included in the table and show that 79% not met since 2003. The possibility of the committee of all landings by the UK 10 metre and under fleet in meeting is always kept under review. 2010 were of non-quota stocks. 295W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 296W

Table 1: Stocks fished by the UK’s 10 metre and under fleet1: 2010 UK quota as at 10 metre and under Landings by the 10 31 December fleet’s quota as at 31 Percentage of metre and under Percentage of Quota stocks (tonnes) December2 (tonnes) UK quota fleet 3 (tonnes) UK quota

Anglers 7 (incl. 8abde) 6,078.5 196.6 3 187.3 3 North Sea Anglers 9,762.9 20.8 0 11.4 0 West of Scotland Anglers 2,518.2 5.8 0 0.1 0 Cod 73 386.6 4.8 1 2.2 1 Cod 7b-k (excl 7d) 325.5 85.1 26 83.8 26 Cod7d 196.5 93.2 47 66.1 34 North Sea Cod 14,281.4 571.5 4 556.9 4 West of Scotland Cod 138.6 0.4 0 0.1 0 North Sea Dabs and Flounders 1,395.0 31.6 2 18.0 1 Haddock 7a 799.1 14.6 2 0.4 0 Haddock 7b-k 943.5 71.4 8 59.7 6 North Sea Haddock 25,367.5 93.0 0 90.4 0 Hake 65,7 (incl 8abde) 4,046.5 20.5 1 2.2 0 North Sea Hake 1,989.3 0.7 0 0.6 0 Herring 4c/7d 1,799.0 101.5 6 72.2 4 Herring 7a (Manx and Mourne) 5,030.4 2.4 0 0.1 0 Herring 7ef 500.0 271.7 54 146.2 29 North Sea Horse Mackerel 4,396.3 2.0 0 1.6 0 West Coast Horse Mackerel 15,651.8 4.6 0 3.6 0 North Sea Lemon Sole and Witches 3,983.0 72.2 2 43.6 1 Deep Sea Ling 4 2,079.6 8.8 0 8.7 0 Deep Sea Ling 6-10,12.14 2,974.7 125.5 4 50.8 2 North Sea Mackerel 1,754.0 489.0 28 481.5 27 West Coast Mackerel 159,098.8 116.0 0 117.8 0 Megrim 7 3,312.6 37.2 1 6.0 0 North Sea Megrims 1,678.0 1.3 0 0.1 0 Nephrops 7 8,831.2 161.0 2 117.1 1 North Sea Nephrops 22,834.6 1,292.2 6 877.6 4 West of Scotland Nephrops 17,906.8 1,675.9 9 1,602.0 9 Plaice 7a 547.6 63.7 12 33.9 6 Plaice 7de 1,360.8 316.5 23 296.5 22 Plaice 7fg 59.6 12.6 21 11.5 19 North Sea Plaice 14,763.0 49.0 0 42.8 0 Pollack 7 2,395.5 574.2 24 463.0 19 West of Scotland Pollack 148.0 5.0 3 1.9 1 Saithe 7 447.0 11.0 2 3.7 1 North Sea Saithe 12,094.0 13.7 0 11.1 0 Skates and Rays 6, 7b-k (excl 7d) 3,460.0 679.2 20 434.0 13 Skates and Rays 7d 136.0 96.1 11 92.2 68 North Sea Skates and Rays 676.7 161.8 24 130.6 19 Sole 7a 94.3 8.7 9 2.4 3 Sole 7d 913.0 552.6 61 449.8 49 Sole 7e 365.1 22.1 6 20.5 6 Sole 7fg 309.6 25.4 6 8.2 3 North Sea Sole 1,206.5 310.2 26 243.9 20 Sprat 7de 4,429.0 92.5 2 22.4 1 North Sea Sprat 5,607.0 159.9 3 66.1 2 North Sea Spurdog 20.0 0.0 0 0.7 4 North Sea Turbot and Brill 610.0 16.8 3 14.7 2 North Sea Whiting 7,782.0 325.4 4 350.4 5 Whiting 7a 60.2 1.0 2 0.2 0 Whiting 7b-k 1,152.8 210.4 18 180.7 16

Total quota stocks 378,697.6 9,279.1 2 7,509.5 2

Total non-quota stocks n/a n/a n/a 27,981.4 n/a

Total all species n/a n/a n/a 35,490.9 n/a 1 Excludes vessels which are members of producer organisations. 2 Includes unfished leased quota by vessels in the 10 metre and under fleet. 3 Excludes landings against leased quota. 297W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 298W

Fishing Vessels the Statement of Principles expires. DEFRA has committed to spend at least £2.1 billion on flooding and coastal Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for erosion over the next four years. This represents Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many approximately an 8% reduction compared to the previous fishing vessels of (a) 10 metres and under and (b) over four years. 10 metres are licensed in the UK. [56215] Hydrofluorocarbons Richard Benyon: Latest figures show that there are currently 5,744 vessels licensed in the UK, excluding the Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. Of those, 1,320 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to are over 10 metres and 4,424 are 10 metres and under. her Department’s Carbon Plan, March 2011, paragraph Source: 10.13, what progress she has made on reducing the (a) (b) Marine Management Organisation’s Citrix database. production and use of hydrofluorocarbon in (i) the refrigeration industry and (ii) heat pumps. [56173] Floods: Greenwich Richard Benyon: A comprehensive EU regulatory framework to contain, prevent and, thereby, reduce Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for emissions of hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) from equipment Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) if she will such as refrigeration and heat pumps is already in place instruct the Environment Agency to carry out an assessment having been fully implemented since 2009 in Great of the Sutcliffe Park flood alleviation scheme to ensure Britain by the Fluorinated Greenhouse Gases Regulations that it has the capacity to prevent flooding from the 2009 (SI 2009/261). However, this framework stops River Quaggy into neighbouring residential areas; and short of controls to phase down the production of the if she will make a statement; [56236] gases themselves. (2) whether she has received any recommendation There are existing proposals at an international level from the Environment Agency on the capacity of the to use the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete Sutcliffe Park flood alleviation scheme to prevent damage the Ozone Layer to phase down the production and use to neighbouring residential areas; and if she will make a of HFCs. This would affect all types of equipment, not statement. [56237] just refrigeration and heat pumps. The UK Government remains supportive, in principle, of an international Richard Benyon: Sutcliffe Park Flood Storage Area phase-down of production and consumption of HFCs was completed in 2007 as part of a wider project, but there are many technical issues to be discussed known as the River Quaggy Flood Alleviation Scheme. before any formal negotiations on a phase-down could It was designed to protect properties from floods with a take place. The Government will continue to push for 1 in 70 probability of occurring in any one year. the development of a phase-down agreement at the When the Environment Agency (EA) designed the upcoming Montreal Protocol and United Nations River Quaggy Flood Alleviation Scheme it included an Framework Convention on Climate Change meetings, allowance for climate change over the next 100 years and support this aim. Further detailed analysis of impacts and increased the capacity of the scheme to take this of the proposals will also be conducted. into account. The latest estimate of HFC emissions from refrigeration, Since completion in 2007, the level of the flood based on the assessment by the consultants AEA, available defence has been annually inspected by both the EA at: and an independent engineer (appointed by the Institution http://archive.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/air/fgas/ of Civil Engineers), to ensure there has been no subsidence documents/hfc-aeat101005.pdf 1 or deterioration of standards. These inspections show was 4,336.7 kt CO2e in 2009 . The latest projections of that all the defences are in good condition and providing HFC emissions from refrigeration in 2030 is 1,693.9 kt the level of flood protection expected. CO2e. There are no current recommendations from the EA The AEA study also estimated that 0.06 kt CO2 eq. of concerning Sutcliffe Park. Annual inspections of Sutcliffe HFC 134a would be emitted from heat pumps in 2009, Park will continue for its lifetime to ensure the capacity rising to 0.16 kt CO2 eq. of HFC134a by 2025. It and standard of defence is maintained at the level to should be noted that these estimates are highly uncertain, which it was designed. and are very small in relation to HFC emissions from the other sectors. These estimates of emissions are Floods: Insurance currently not included in either the main F-gas model or the UK national greenhouse gas emission totals, and Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for further work is needed to refine the fundamental parameters Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment before the emissions from this sector can be included. she has made of the effects of reductions in public 1 UK GHG Inventory 1990-2009 spending on flood defence on compliance with the Statement of Principles on the provision of flood insurance of July 2008. [55975] HOME DEPARTMENT Alcoholic Drinks: Children Richard Benyon: We are working closely with the insurance industry through the Flood summit process Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the to understand the relationship between insurance and Home Department whether her proposals for further flood risk management as well as possible and to map restrictions on the sale of alcohol to children will apply out a pathway for flood insurance beyond 2013 when to micro-businesses. [55449] 299W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 300W

James Brokenshire [holding answer 13 May 2011]: that the individual currently resides in. Again this information is We have made provision in the Police Reform and provided to SOCA. This information can be found at Table 2, Social Responsibility Bill to tackle the persistent sales Annex A. of alcohol to children. Our intention is that these measures 3. Database management information. This provides total will apply to all businesses. numbers of subject and crime scene DNA profile records held on the NDNAD and the total number of match reports generated. Countries which do not have a DNA database use this information Animal Experiments to demonstrate the success of the UK Database in order to support their case for legislation of a DNA database in their own Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the country. Requestors are directed to the most recent published Home Department if she will make it her policy to statistics on the National Policing Improvement Agency’s NDNAD withhold any certificate of designation for the proposed website at: Marshall Biosciences beagle breeding factory at Grimston, http://www.npia.police.uk/en/8934.htm East Yorkshire for the purposes of reducing the use of No figures are kept for the number of such requests. animals in painful laboratory experiments; and if she Data provided are management information only. will make a statement. [56136] Data have not been formally assessed for compliance with the code of practice for official statistics. Lynne Featherstone: Under Section 7 of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, places where animals Table 1 specified in schedule 2 to the Act are bred for use in Number of searched profile responses provided to SOCA regulated procedures, or are kept for supply for use in such procedures or to other designated sources, must be 2007-08 727 designated as breeding and/or supplying establishments. 2008-09 573 Applications for designation are considered on a case 2009-101 377 by case basis according to their merits. It is not Home 2010-11 2— Office policy to comment on individual applications. 1 Data are not available for the period October 2009-January 2010. 2 Figures not yet available Antisocial Behaviour Note: Data provided are management information only and have not been formally assessed for compliance with the code of practice for official Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for the statistics. Home Department whether she plans to give a right of Table 2 redress against enforcement authorities to persons Number of subject profiles who have been subject to antisocial behaviour in provided to SOCA circumstances where complaints of such behaviour 2007-08 89 have not been addressed appropriately. [56029] 2008-09 128 2009-10 138 James Brokenshire: On 7 February 2011, the Home 1 Office launched a public consultation on proposals to 2010-11 — 1 give the police and their partners more effective powers Figures not yet available. Note: to tackle antisocial behaviour. The proposals include Data provided are management information only and have not been the introduction of a “Community Trigger”, which formally assessed for compliance with the code of practice for official would give communities the right to force agencies to statistics. take action where they have failed to do so and elected Domestic Violence: Advisory Services police and crime commissioners will be able to hold agencies to account for their response. The consultation closed on 17 May, and the Department is considering Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for the responses. the Home Department to which local authority areas her Department allocated funding in respect of independent DNA: Databases domestic violence advisers in financial year 2010-11 but are no longer in receipt of such funding. [55901]

Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 16 May 2011]: Home Department how many requests for information This information is not readily available in the format held on the National DNA Database her Department requested. A list of the grants we funded in 2010-11 received from other countries in each year since 2007. which covers independent domestic violence advisers [53344] (IDVAs) (and where there was a combined grant some multi-agency risk assessment conference coordinator James Brokenshire: There are three categories of (MARAC) posts) will be placed in the House Library. information sought from the National DNA Database A list of those who received funding in 2011-12 can be (NDNAD) by other countries. found at: 1. Searches carried out against the NDNAD of DNA profiles http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/violence-against-women- from outstanding serious crimes or for the identification of an girls/idva/ unknown deceased person believed to be a UK national. Reports are issued directly to the United Kingdom National Central Drugs Bureau for Interpol (UK NCB) based at the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) as to the outcome of each profile search. This information can be found at Table 1, Annex A. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2. Requests for the DNA profile held for a subject on the Home Department what recent representations she has NDNAD, where fingerprints have been provided to the country received on the 2010 Drugs Strategy. [55752] 301W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 302W

James Brokenshire: Since January, the Home Office under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, and earlier has received three representations linked specifically to legislation, and subsequently enforced is set out in the the 2010 Drug Strategy. following table. The enforcement of confiscation orders The two-week pilot of the ’drug strategy blog’ received is essentially a matter for HM Courts Service. Information nearly 6,000 visits and 86 posts were published, after is available for the three financial years 2007-08, 2008-09 appropriate moderation. and 2009-10.

Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for the £ Home Department how many officials in her Department Greater Manchester Cash forfeiture Confiscation Total are working on the Government’s review of the 2010 police authority receipts receipts receipts Drugs Strategy; and whether such officials have met representatives of (a) Serco, (b) Capita, (c) A4e and 2007-08 420,358 425,547 845,905 (d) G4S. [55753] 2008-09 521,068 389,620 910,688 2009-10 834,463 344,859 1,179,322 James Brokenshire: The terms of the annual review are still being scoped. No officials have met with the Members: Correspondence organisations listed. Entry Clearances: Private Education Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she plans to respond to Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the the letter from the hon. Member for Thurrock of 14 Home Department for what reasons private schools are February 2011. [56133] treated differently from higher education institutions in the private sector who have highly trusted status but Damian Green: I replied to my hon. Friend the Member not accreditation required to increase their number of for Thurrock on 19 May 2011. students from September 2011 under the immigration rules relating to institutions providing education and Victim Support Schemes: Newcastle upon Tyne professional training. [56414] Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Damian Green: The Government have two key aims for the Home Department how many (a) independent in their reform of the student immigration system: to domestic violence advisers and (b) independent sexual tackle abuse of the student system and support work on violence advisers were employed in Newcastle upon reducing migration to sustainable levels. The independent Tyne (i) on the latest date for which information is school sector is a highly regulated part of the education available and (ii) in each of the last five years. [56409] sector, with independent schools subject to statutory regulation, overseen by the relevant Departments and Lynne Featherstone: The requested information is not inspectorates responsible for education across the UK. collected centrally as funding for independent sexual In our experience of operating Tier 4, the independent violence adviser (ISVA)and independent domestic violence school sector has demonstrated good levels of compliance adviser (IDVA) posts can come from a range of local with immigration requirements. and national sources. Independent schools primarily use the Tier 4 (Child) A sub-set of ISVA posts has been partially funded by category as the majority of their pupils are aged between the Home Office since 2006-07. Of these, the REACH four and 17-years-old, using the Tier 4 (General) category sexual assault referral centre in Newcastle upon Tyne for the very small number of pupils who need to apply was a recipient of Home Office funding for one ISVA to the UK Border Agency once aged 18 or over. post in 2009-10 and for 2011-12 to 2014-15. Independent schools have therefore been excluded from The Home Office has also awarded funding for one the interim limit on the number of Confirmation of IDVA post to Newcastle Victim Support for 2011-12 to Acceptance for Studies they may assign under Tier 4 2014-15. (General) between 21 April 2011 and 5 April 2012, because of the low levels of abuse and small numbers using the Tier 4 (General) category when compared with other sectors which are not subject to statutory regulation, have higher levels of non-compliance and HEALTH higher numbers of students attending institutions within the sector. Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers

Greater Manchester Police Authority Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department spent on special Mr Nuttall: To ask the Secretary of State for the advisers’ travel by (a) Government car, (b) private hire Home Department what contribution the Greater car, (c) train, (d) bus, (e) commercial aircraft and (f) Manchester Police Authority made to the Exchequer as private aircraft since May 2010. [56107] a result of assets seized under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010. [55480] Mr Simon Burns: The Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire James Brokenshire: Information on the value of monies (Mr Lansley), has two special advisers. The information received under cash forfeiture orders and confiscation requested, covering the period from 1 May 2010 to 30 orders obtained by the Greater Manchester police authority April 2011, is set out in the following table: 303W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 304W

that would be affected to agree how expenditure on Mode of transport Expenditure (£) fluoridation can be provided for from the overall allocations Government car 0 they receive for capital and revenue expenditure. Private hire car/taxi 0 Train 2,277.50 Fluoride: Southampton Bus 0 Commercial aircraft 2,506.10 Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Private aircraft 0 Health whether his Department made funding for Source: fluoridation available to South Central Strategic Data have been extracted from the Department’s electronic Business Health Authority for use in Southampton and parts of Management System Totton in the period from April 2008 to March 2011. [56566] Departmental Mobile Phones Anne Milton: In November 2006, the Department Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health allocated £35,000 to South Central Strategic Health what the name is of each contractor or supplier of (a) Authority (SHA) to commission consultants to conduct mobile telephone and (b) mobile data services to his a feasibility study of fluoridating Southampton. The Department. [56064] study found that, in addition to 160,000 residents of Southampton, the water distribution system also served Mr Simon Burns: Vodafone are the suppliers of both approximately 35,000 people living in parts of Eastleigh, mobile telephony and mobile data services. These services Totton and Netley in south-west Hampshire. The SHA are provided to the Department by Computer Sciences has funded subsequent expenditure on the proposed Corporation (CSC) under a managed service agreement. fluoridation scheme from its own resources.

Departmental Travel Hospitals

Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how much each executive agency of his Health what recent assessment his Department has Department has spent on travel by (a) private hire made of the productivity of (a) military and (b) NHS vehicles, (b) trains, (c) buses, (d) commercial aircraft hospitals. [56128] and (e) private aircraft since May 2010; [56073] Mr Simon Burns: United Kingdom national health (2) how much has been spent on travel in respect of service productivity is measured by the Office for National (a) each of his Department’s executive agencies and Statistics (ONS) and most recent estimates from 1996 (b) the chief executive of each such agency since May are given in the following table. 2010. [56179] Growth in UK NHS productivity 1996 to 2009 Mr Simon Burns: The Medicines and Healthcare Percentage products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) is the only executive 1996 -1.4 agency of the Department. 1997 0.4 Since May 2010, the MHRA has spent £55,793.47 on 1998 -0.6 private hire vehicles, £234,872.35, on trains, £1,310.89 1999 0.5 on buses, £994,273.01 on commercial aircraft and nothing 2000 -0.5 on private aircraft. 2001 1.6 Since May 2010, the MHRA has spent a total of 2002 -2.0 £1,286,358.22 on travel and £2,865.23 on travel for the 2003 -1.6 chief executive. 2004 -0.4 2005 0.1 Fluoride 2006 1.3 2007 -0.6 Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 -0.1 Health (1) what his policy is on the provision by his 2009 0.7 Department of funding for fluoridation to strategic Notes: health authorities where consultations show local 1. Figures are rounded to one decimal place. communities not to be in favour of fluoridation; [56567] 2. Figures contain data from all UK countries. 3. Figures include some adjustments for the quality of care delivered. (2) on what date funding by his Department for Source: fluoridation in pursuance of the announcement of February Hardie M; et al (2011) Public Service Output, Inputs and Productivity: 2008 ceased to be available; and what plans he has for Healthcare, ONS. the availability of funds for fluoridation in 2011-12. The National Audit Office as part of their work for [56568] the Public Accounts Committee asked ONS to disaggregate their measure of productivity to show the trend in Anne Milton: The central allocation for funding the hospital productivity from 2000 to 2008. This showed capital costs of fluoridation schemes, announced by that hospital productivity has declined by an average of the previous Government in February 2008, covered the -1.4% per year, with an adjustment made for the quality period 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2011. It is now for of services. This compares to an average decline of strategic health authorities and the primary care trusts -0.2% per year across the NHS as a whole. 305W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 306W

At present no data exists to compare productivity Southern Cross Healthcare between NHS hospitals. There are no military hospitals in the UK. There are NHS hospitals with military Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health wings, however productivity data is not collected for what progress has been made in discussions with these wings. Southern Cross Healthcare on the continuing provision It should be noted that figures differ from the answer of service to their clients; and if he will make a I gave the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) on statement. [56367] 28 February 2011, Official Report, column 140W,following revisions made by ONS to the historic series in their Paul Burstow: Southern Cross has plans in place to most recent article published in March 2011. restructure its business and ensure that services and quality are maintained and is keeping the Government updated on progress. North Cheshire Hospitals NHS Trust We will continue to keep in close touch with the situation and will work with local authorities, the Care Quality Commission and others to ensure there is an Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health effective response, which delivers protection to everyone whether he has had recent discussions on the potential affected. merger of North Cheshire Hospitals NHS Trust with another trust; and if he will make a statement. [56474]

Mr Simon Burns: No formal discussions have taken TRANSPORT place with Ministers on a potential merger of the Warrington and Halton Hospitals NHS Foundation Departmental Information Officers Trust (previously North Cheshire Hospitals NHS Trust) with another NHS trust. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for At a Westminster Hall debate on 4 May 2011 on Transport how many press officers his Department “Private Finance Initiative Hospitals”, the potential for employs. [55318] the St Helens and Knowsley Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust to merge with another NHS trust as an option for Norman Baker: The number of full-time equivalent achieving foundation trust status was discussed. The (FTE) staff employed on press officer activities on 1 Warrington and Halton Hospitals NHS Foundation April 2011 by the Department is set out in the following Trust was identified as a possible merger partner, given table. its geographical proximity to the St Helens and Knowsley Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. However, the St Helens Staff (FTE) employed on press officer activities on 1 April 2011 and Knowsley Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust is still Number considering all options that are available to achieve Department for Transport 14 foundation trust status. (Central) On 16 May 2011, I briefly discussed this issue in a Driving Standards Agency 3 telephone conversation with my hon. Friend the Member Driver and Vehicle Licensing 4 for Warrington South (David Mowat). Agency Government Car and Despatch 0 Work is continuing on the development of a tripartite Agency formal agreement between St Helens and Knowsley Highways Agency 13 Hospitals NHS Trust, North West strategic health authority Maritime and Coastguard 2 and the Department to set out the agreed options that Agency will enable the trust to obtain foundation trust status. Vehicle Certification Agency 0 Vehicle and Operator Services 1.6 Agency Nurses: Manpower The Highways Agency has a team of regional press officers to support its role in operating, maintaining Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and improving the strategic road network in each region. what assessment he has made of the role of specialist These press officers are employed primarily to keep the sickle cell and thalassaemia nurses in (a) improving public informed of roadworks, incidents and events patient experience, (b) improving patient outcomes which might affect their journeys. and (c) reducing costs to the NHS. [56009] Departmental Legal Costs Anne Milton: The Government have not made an assessment of the role of specialist sickle cell and Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for thalassaemia nurses in improving patient experience Transport how much his Department paid in (a) damages, and outcomes or costs to the national health service. (b) claimant costs and (c) defendant costs in respect of The Government acknowledge the vital role that specialist all civil claims brought against his Department in which nurses have in supporting patients with the management the claimant was successful or the Department settled of these long-term conditions. Local NHS organisations in each of the last three years. [54627] are best placed to develop service models that put patients at the heart of care and have a clear and Norman Baker: I regret that this information cannot rigorous focus on improving health outcomes. be provided other than at disproportionate cost. 307W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 308W

Driving: Insurance Motor Vehicle: Testing

Anna Soubry: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps his Department takes to monitor Transport if he will estimate the effects of moving to trends in motor insurance premiums; and if he will MOT inspections every two years for private vehicles make a statement. [55011] on the number of (a) vehicles that fail MOT tests, (b) collisions or incidents due to unsafe vehicles, (c) Mike Penning: The setting of insurance premiums is deaths and serious injuries through road accidents and a matter for the insurers based on a commercial decision. (d) garages and MOT test stations; and if he will make The Office for National Statistics (ONS) collects data a statement. [53201] on family expenditure on vehicle taxation and insurance costs, but this Department does not separately monitor Mike Penning [holding answer 3 May 2011]: I intend premiums. to review the MOT test scheme. I want to make sure I welcome the recent Transport Select Committee’s that a review takes account of all the latest information report on “The cost of motor insurance” and agree with available to us. To that end, we have recently published their conclusions on the importance of this issue and the results of independent research the Department the need to look at a range of ways of reducing costs. commissioned to examine how vehicle defects affect The Department for Transport will need time to fully accident rates, and to consider the potential road safety consider and formally respond to the report. A seminar impact of changing the frequency of the MOT. The to discuss the issues with key interested parties is being ‘Effect of Vehicle Defects in Road Accidents’ report can planned. be found at: http://www.trl.co.uk/library/reports_publications/ latest_publications/ Large Goods Vehicles: Accidents This research will be a useful addition to other information we will be gathering through the review process, including Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for on the impacts on garages and MOT stations. Transport how many and what proportion of traffic accidents on motorways involved a heavy goods vehicle Motor Vehicles: Insurance with a foreign registration in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010; and what proportion of such incidents were Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for attributed to poor visibility or blind spots on such Transport if he will discuss with representatives of the vehicles. [53204] insurance industry the effects of the cost of car insurance for young drivers on the take-up of such Mike Penning: The following table shows the number insurance; and if he will make a statement. [55478] of reported personal injury road accidents on motorways involving foreign registered heavy goods vehicles in Mike Penning: I am keen to work with the insurance Great Britain in (a) 2008 and (b) 2009 (the latest data industry to look at new approaches to reduce the impact for which information is available): of high insurance costs on young drivers and the Department for Transport is planning seminars with Accidents key stakeholders to discuss this. Accidents (a) 2008 (b) 2009

On motorways 7,249 6,643 Regional Airports Of which involved a foreign registered 409 354 HGV John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what discussions he has had the Proportion involving a foreign 65Chancellor of the Exchequer on the co-ordination of registered HGV (percentage) Government policy on regional airports; [54110] It is not possible to identify accidents where a blind (2) which regional airports he has visited to discuss spot of, or an area of poor visibility on, a vehicle co-ordination of Government policy since 12 May attributed to the accident. 2010; [54111] However, the following table shows the number of (3) what discussions he has had with the Mayor of accidents on motorways involving a foreign registered London on Government policy on regional airports. heavy goods vehicle in Great Britain where the contributory [54112] factor “vehicle blind spot” was assigned to a foreign HGV by a police officer attending the scene: Mrs Villiers: Department for Transport Ministers attend various meetings with Ministers in other Government Accidents Departments, the operators of regional airports and the Accidents (a) 2008 (b) 2009 Mayor of London, where they discuss a range of issues including Government policy on aviation. 1 On motorways 6,317 5,830 The Government have announced their intention to Of which involved a foreign registered HGV assigned 143 155 the contributory factor “vehicle blind spot” develop a sustainable policy framework for UK aviation. On 30 March 2011, the Department for Transport published a scoping document that frames the debate Proportion involving a foreign registered HGV 23 (percentage) on the future direction of aviation policy and asks a 1 Includes only accidents where a police officer attended the scene and in which series of questions, including on regional connectivity a contributory factor was reported. and regional airports. The responses to the scoping 309W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 310W document will help to inform the development of a and the action to close the case being taken by the Agency. A draft framework, which we intend to publish for full cancelled/withdrawn event on a case is the first step of the closure public consultation in March 2012. process. This event occurs to stop an ongoing liability on a case. A case should not be fully closed until all outstanding arrears on a Shipping: EU Law case are cleared (However historically there have been system problems that have allowed this in a few cases). If no outstanding arrears exist then a case can go through the whole closure process Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for on the same day. Transport if he will seek to amend Directive 96/71/EC in order to harmonise employment rights for EU-based The information in the table below shows the median and mean times in each of the last five years. Robust information is seafarers with those of other EU citizens. [55823] not available to show the end-to-end closure process for cases Mike Penning: The Department for Transport has no administered on the CSCS computer system. intention to seek an amendment to Directive 96/71/EC. Time to close cases on CS2 computer system Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Median average to Mean average to Transport what his Department’s policy is in respect of Year of closure close case (Days) close case (Weeks) the exclusion of EU-based seafarers from the 2006-07 1 28 provisions of Directive 96/71/EC. [55824] 2007-08 0 15 Mike Penning: The Government favours a level playing 2008-09 1 26 field across the EU for EU-based seafarers and is 2009-10 0 22 determined not to act in a way that compromises the 2010-11 0 34 UK shipping industry. Note: Shipping: Smoking Information only includes cases which are fully closed and is categorised by year of closure. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for I hope you find this answer helpful. Transport whether ships under foreign flags are legally entitled to permit smoking on the bridge whilst UK pilots are present and within UK territorial waters; and Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work if he will make a statement. [55796] and Pensions what the outcome was of each child Mike Penning: There is no UK law that prohibits support case closed by the Child Support Agency and smoking in these circumstances. The ship’s Master has the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission prime responsibility for the day-to-day running of their in each of the last five years. [54660] vessel.

Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement WORK AND PENSIONS Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner Child Support Agency to write to the hon. Member with the information requested and I have seen the response. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the average time taken by the Child Letter from Alan Hardy: Support Agency and the Child Maintenance and In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Enforcement Commission to close cases was in each of Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive the last five years. [54659] reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement and Enforcement Commission. As the Child Maintenance Commission is responsible for the child maintenance Commissioner is currently on annual leave I am responding on system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner his behalf. to write to the hon. Member with the information You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, what requested and I have seen the response. the outcome was of each child support case closed by the Child Letter from Alan Hardy: Support Agency and the Child Maintenance and Enforcement In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Commission in each of the last five years. [54660] Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child We attempted unsuccessfully to seek clarification of this question Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance from your office. We have therefore interpreted this question as and Enforcement Commission. As the Child Maintenance the reasons for cases administered on the CS2 computer system Commissioner is currently on annual leave I am responding on being cancelled/withdrawn or closed in each of the last five years. his behalf. A cancelled/withdrawn event on a case is the first step of the closure process. This event occurs to stop an ongoing liability on a You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, what case. A case should not be fully closed until all outstanding the average time taken by the Child Support Agency and the arrears on a case are cleared. If no outstanding arrears exist Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission to close cases then a case can go through the whole closure process on the same was in each of the last five years. [54659] day. We attempted unsuccessfully to seek clarification of this question from your office. We have therefore interpreted this question as The following tables show those that are closed prior to the the average time between a liability ending on a case (liability initial calculation and those that are closed any time post the cancelled/withdrawn) and the conditions for closure being met initial calculation which could be anything from days to years. 311W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 312W

Reasons for case closure prior to calculation: Current scheme CS2 system Reason for closure 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

Total closures 201,300 189,300 135,000 39,300 25,100 Application not pursued by applicant 29,700 23,700 26,000 28,000 21,200 Application not eligible/no longer valid 10,400 10,300 6,600 1,100 1,300 Welfare issues/risk of harm 6,200 4,600 1,500 0 0 Reconciliation of NRP and PWC 5,900 4,300 1,500 300 200 Insufficient information 1,100 0 100 0 0 Application superseded by new claim 19,700 40,400 32,900 9,600 2,300 Casebuild terminated 107,000 94,700 52,300 0 0 Other/missing 21,400 11,400 14,100 200 100

Reasons for case closure following calculation: Current scheme CS2 system case previously paid Reason for closure 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

Total closures 16,300 21,700 34,300 36,200 31,300 Application not pursued by applicant 4,600 5,900 12,600 15,100 10,700 Application not eligible/no longer valid 6,500 9,500 14,000 15,000 15,900 Welfare issues/risk of harm 100 100 0 0 0 Reconciliation of NRP and PWC 3,500 4,000 4,600 4,100 3,100 Insufficient information 0 0 0 0 0 Application superseded by new claim 700 1,300 1,400 400 100 Casebuild terminated 0 0 0 0 0 Other/missing 800 1,000 1,700 1,600 1,500

Reasons for case closure following calculation: Current scheme CS2 system case not previously paid Reason for closure 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

Total closures 3,500 4,500 5,700 6,500 4,700 Application not pursued by applicant 1,000 1,300 2,100 3,200 2,400 Application not eligible/no longer valid 1,100 1,400 1,900 2,100 1,500 Welfare issues/risk of harm 0 0 0 0 0 Reconciliation of NRP and PWC 600 700 600 700 400 Insufficient information 0 0 0 0 0 Application superseded by new claim 400 900 600 200 100 Casebuild terminated 0 0 0 0 0 Other/missing 400 300 500 400 300 Notes: 1. Robust information is not available for cases closed on the CSCS computer system. 2. Figures include cases that have been cancelled/withdrawn or closed. 3. Closures as above, though completed by a case worker, can be initiated by either the CS2 system or the user themselves. Where case workers initiate closures, the closure reason is selected from a pre-defined list. As this is subjective, in some instances the selected reason may not reflect the actual reason for closure. 4. Closure reasons ‘Casebuild Terminated’ and ‘Insufficient Information’ should only be relevant to applications closed during the application process. All other closure reasons can be used prior or following a successful application. 5. Casebuild terminated refers to Jobcentre Plus applications received prior to the repeal of Section 6. 6. Figures rounded to 100. 7. Cases that have closed following calculation which have previously paid only includes cases which have had a payment or a maintenance direct arrangement recorded on the CS2 computer system. As this excludes payments made off system the number of cases may be under stated.

I hope you find this answer helpful. The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Division also participates in internal Child Maintenance and Children: Maintenance Enforcement Commission meetings charged with preparing for the introduction of the reforms, so are integrated into the processes for implementing the Government’s Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for proposals. Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Division of the Northern Ireland Executive on the Government’s Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for proposals for child maintenance reform. [55714] Work and Pensions what plans he has for reform of the child maintenance system; and he will make a statement. [55727] Maria Miller: Officials from the Department for Work and Pensions and the Child Maintenance Enforcement Commission meet on a regular basis with colleagues Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance Green Paper: both from the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Division and Department for Social Development to “Strengthening families, promoting parental discuss child maintenance related issues including plans responsibility: the future of child maintenance” for reform. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/strengthening-families.pdf 313W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 314W was published on 13 January 2011 and the consultation claim form and guidance were considered a significant exercise ran until 7 April. This paper sets out the improvement by both customers and staff. Following Government’s proposals for the reform of the entire the success of the test, PDCS now plans to adopt the child maintenance system including the statutory approach nationally. Implementation will take place maintenance scheme. during the next few months. We are now considering the responses received and will issue a Government response to the consultation Disability Living Allowance later this year. Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Departmental Pay Pensions how many claims for disability living allowance there have been in each year since 1992; how Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Work many such claims are in respect of children; what the and Pensions what additional pay he plans to provide cost was to his Department of such payments in each to officials in his Department in the period from 1 year; and if he will make a statement. [52190] April 2011 to 31 March 2013 to reflect (a) seniority, (b) promotion and (c) performance. [55409] Maria Miller: The information is not available in the format requested. Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions We are unable to say how many claims for disability is currently in the second year of a two-year pay freeze living allowance there have been for each year since for all employees earning over £21,000 (full time equivalent). 1992 as records only go back to April 2001. We are also DWP will come out of the pay freeze for grades below unable to tell you how many claims are in respect of senior civil service (SCS) in July 2012 and any additional children. The information on numbers of claims which pay in future years will be informed by Treasury guidance, is available is contained in the following table: affordability and be subject to negotiation. SCS base pay is frozen until March 2013. DLA claims Number DWP pays officials a salary to reflect their position and responsibility within the organisation. It does not 2001-02 408,000 make additional payments according to seniority and 2002-03 433,000 has no plans to do so. 2003-04 442,000 Where an individual is promoted they will receive an 2004-05 428,000 increase in their existing salary by 10% of their existing 2005-06 431,000 pay or the amount needed to take their salary to their 2006-07 431,000 new pay band minimum, whichever is the greater. This 2007-08 448,000 is in accordance with current departmental policy and 2008-09 472,000 there are no plans to change this. 2009-10 483,000 2010-11 441,000 The Department operates two performance related Total 4,417,000 award schemes for employees below senior civil service Notes: (SCS)—an end of year performance award and an 1. The figures include DLA new claims and claims made under the DLA Special in-year award scheme. Rules. 2. Figures have been rounded to the nearest thousand. The payment of in-year awards is discretionary and Source: enables managers to reward and incentivise exceptional DLA Management Information Statistics. contribution to business performance. These have been Information on expenditure and caseload going back in place since April 2003 and continue. to 1992 is contained in the following tables. Some SCS performance payments are awarded as part of management information on numbers of claims is available the annual review of SCS pay in accordance with Cabinet but not by age group. Office guidance. For 2011 the Cabinet Office has announced DLA expenditure, real terms 2011-12 prices that only the top 25% of performers will receive £ million performance-related payments. There are cash ceilings Children Working age Pension age Total on these awards: 1992-93 373 1,990 814 3,177 £10,000 for Deputy Directors (PB1) 1993-94 510 2,722 1,113 4,345 £12,500 for Directors (PB2) 1994-95 563 2,992 1,267 4,821 £15,000 for Directors General (PB3) 1995-96 656 3,535 1,512 5,703 £17,500 for Permanent Secretaries 1996-97 641 4,110 1,753 6,504 1997-98 689 4,357 1,935 6,981 Disability Assessments 1998-99 730 4,497 2,111 7,337 1999-2000 767 4,614 2,281 7,661 Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000-01 811 4,796 2,468 8,074 Work and Pensions what plans his Department has for 2001-02 880 5,046 2,672 8,599 processing disability assessments for young disabled 2002-03 965 5,197 2,766 8,928 people; and if he will make a statement. [50968] 2003-04 977 5,403 2,955 9,335 2004-05 1,009 5,544 3,125 9,678 Maria Miller: Over the past 18 months the Pension, 2005-06 1,087 5,730 3,324 10,140 Disability and Carers Service has tested a revised DLA 2006-07 1,107 5,832 3,483 10,422 claim form for disabled children, improved impairment 2007-08 1,151 6,051 3,717 10,920 specific medical guidance and revised processes. The 2008-09 1,191 6,247 3,896 11,334 315W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 316W

DLA expenditure, real terms 2011-12 prices Current estimates suggest that of those affected by £ million the proposal to time limit contributory ESA, it is expected Children Working age Pension age Total that around 60% will be fully or partially compensated 2009-10 1,260 6,650 4,223 12,133 by income-related ESA. A further 20% are expected to Notes: be eligible for pension credit, housing benefit, council 1. Figures may not sum due to rounding. tax benefit or tax credits. The remaining 20% will not be 2. More detailed DWP benefit expenditure information can be found at: eligible for income replacement benefits. However, people http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/index.php?page=expenditure 3. Expenditure for 2010-11 is not yet available. in this situation will generally either have a working Source: partner or capital over £16,000 so will not be left DWP Statistical and accounting data without resources. DLA caseloads The estimates are subject to change as more information Total Children Working age Pension age numbers on customers in the Work Related Activity Group becomes available. August: 1992(5) 95,600 557,100 290,600 1,049,100 Employment and Support Allowance: Chronic Fatigue 1993(5) 125,500 793,700 354,100 1,279,800 Syndrome 1994 142,900 895,600 397,700 1,436,300 1995 161,800 1,020,100 445,800 1,627,800 1996 177,600 1,128,400 495,800 1,801,900 Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 1997 196,100 1,236,200 550,500 1,982,800 and Pensions what his policy is on measures to ensure 1998 206,500 1,275,300 591,600 2,073,400 that people with myalgic encephalomyelitis who are 1999 215,400 1,301,000 628,900 2,145,300 unable to work are not required to undertake 2000 225,100 1,329,400 669,300 2,223,800 unsuitable work or work-related activity. [56162] 2001 238,000 1,388,300 711,700 2,337,900 2002 256,280 1,468,930 729,120 2,454,340 Chris Grayling [holding answer 17 May 2011]: We 2003 268,330 1,532,040 733,170 2,573,540 recognise that ME has a wide spectrum of symptoms 2004 278,000 1,578,950 815,210 2,672,160 and can be a severely debilitating condition. The effects 2005 285,010 1,609,360 855,110 2,749,480 of ME on an individual may contribute to someone 2006 289,940 1,632,630 891,710 2,814,290 meeting the entitlement conditions for benefits. 2007 298,420 1,672,780 938,780 2,909,980 When someone’s health condition or disability, or the 2008 308,630 1,710,390 980,630 2,999,650 treatment they are receiving, makes it unreasonable to 2009 320,140 1,756,730 1,019,430 3,096,300 expect them to work we are committed to supporting 2010 330,530 1,800,140 1,045,540 3,176,200 them. The appropriate benefit in such cases is employment Notes: and support allowance (ESA). Entitlement to ESA is 1. Figures from August 1992 to August 2001 are taken from 5% sample data. They have been uprated to be consistent with WPLS data and are rounded to based on an individual’s functional ability rather than the nearest 100. Figures from August 2002 onwards are taken from WPLS 100% the condition itself. Anyone claiming ESA will undergo data and are rounded to the nearest 10. the work capability assessment. Those with the most 2. Figures show the number of people in receipt of an allowance and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if severe functional limitations will be placed in the Support they are in hospital. Group, for which the undertaking of work related activity 3. Constituencies used for August 2010 are for the Westminster Parliament of is not a requirement. May 2010. Prior to this the constituencies used are for May 2005. 4. These figures are published at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/ People with limited capability for work will be placed index.php?page=tabtool in the Work-Related Activity Group. These individuals 5. State pension age. The age at which women reach state pension age will gradually increase from 60 to 65 between April 2010 and April 2020. This will may be required to undertake work-related activity, introduce a small increase to the number of working age benefit recipients and a detailed in their action plan, which must be reasonable small reduction to the number of pension age recipients. Figures from May in their circumstances. If they feel the requirement on 2010 onwards reflect this change. 6. Data extracts from earlier years (August 1992 and 1993) have a large number them is unreasonable, they will be able to request the of cases with unrecorded ages. For August 1992 this accounts for 105,900 cases; activity is reconsidered. Advisers will not be able to for August 1993 this had dropped to 6,500 cases. direct people on ESA to seek, apply for or do work, nor Source: DWP Information Directorate: 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study will they be directed to undertake medical treatment. (WPLS) and WPLS 5% sample data. Employment and Support Allowance Employment and Support Allowance: Visual Impairment Dame Anne Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate his Department has Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the proportion of claimants who will cease to Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of receive contributory employment and support allowance the effect of the Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) payments having received them for a year, but (Limited Capability for Work and Limited Capability will not qualify for income-based ESA or any other for Work-related Activity) (Amendment) Regulations income replacement benefits in April 2012. [37486] 2011 (S.I. No. 228, 2011), laid by his Department on 16 February 2011 on the numbers of blind and Maria Miller: As part of the Welfare Reform Bill, we partially sighted individuals eligible for employment have set out our intention to introduce a time limit of support allowance. [56523] one year for those claiming contributory employment and support allowance (ESA) and who are placed in the Chris Grayling: In March 2010, the Department Work Related Activity Group (WRAG) from April published a Department-led review of the work capability 2012. assessment. This made recommendations for improving 317W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 318W the work capability assessment including making greater criteria in the social rented sector in 2013-14 where provision for individuals awaiting or in between courses either the claimant or their partner are in receipt of of chemotherapy, those receiving residential treatment disability living allowance. for drug or alcohol misuse and individuals with severe However, there are certain households included within mental health conditions or communication difficulties. the 200,000 which may not be affected by the size The review also made recommendations to take greater criteria changes. These are households where the claimant account of how an individual has adapted to their is either entitled to an additional bedroom for a non-resident condition and to simplify some of the descriptors. carer providing overnight care, or is living in certain These changes came into force on 28 March 2011. types of supported accommodation. The initial estimates predicted that overall the changes For other households, local authorities can consider would result in a five percentage point increase in the a discretionary housing payment based on the tenant’s proportion of new claims to employment and support individual circumstances. allowance assessed as fit for work and a half a percentage Notes: point increase in the proportion assessed to be in the support group. More information can be found in the 1. The figures have been produced using the Policy Simulation Model, using 2008-09 reference data from the Family Resource impact assessment that accompanied the regulations at: Survey. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-ia-eia.pdf 2. The figure has been rounded to the nearest 10,000. The estimates were not broken down by particular 3. The methodology is consistent with that used in the Equality health conditions so the expected effect of these changes Impact Assessment of the size criteria for claimants living in the on the eligibility of blind and partially sighted individuals social rented sector, published in March 2011. is not available. 4. Households are considered in receipt of disability living allowance Data on the results of the work capability assessments where either the claimant or partner is in receipt of either the care completed since 28 March are not yet available, but the or mobility component of disability living allowance regardless of Department will continue to monitor the outcomes of the rate at which it is paid. work capability assessments.

Housing Benefit Jobcentre Plus: Manpower

Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions how many people receiving (a) housing Work and Pensions (1) if he will estimate the factor by benefit but not council tax benefit, (b) council tax which the number of sanctions issued with respect to benefit but not housing benefit and (c) housing benefit each working age benefit by each Jobcentre Plus office and council tax benefit have benefit withdrawal rates of has changed in each quarter since the final quarter of more than 40 per cent. against marginal income. 2009-10; [53574] [53416] (2) how many sanctions were applied with respect to each working age benefit by each Jobcentre Plus office Steve Webb: The following table provides the number in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) the first three of working age customers who are employed and in quarters of 2010-11. [53575] households receiving HB and/or CTB with marginal deduction rates (MDRs) of more than 40%. Chris Grayling: Information by individual office is not available. The available information for jobseeker’s Benefit MDR > 40% (Number) allowance sanctions by Jobcentre Plus District has been HB only 400,000 placed in the Library. Sanctions data for income support CTB only 100,000 and incapacity benefit sanctions are not available and HB and CTB 200,000 could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Notes: Information on employment support allowance sanctions 1. The numbers are rounded to the nearest 100,000. will be available for the first time on 18 May 2011. 2. The numbers are for 2008-09. 3. Due to the impact on the marginal deduction rates, these numbers exclude households with disabled adults or children, students and Poverty: Children those who report self-employed income or who are not in employment. Source: The Department’s Policy Simulation Model (version 10.2.0) Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Housing Benefit: Disability and Pensions what steps he is taking to address child poverty; and what arrangements he has made to assess progress towards the Government’s objectives on child Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and poverty. [48618] Pensions how many disabled tenants in social housing which his Department’s Equality Impact Assessment Maria Miller: The Government’s child poverty strategy estimates will be affected by his proposed changes to was published on 5 April, and can be found at: eligibility for housing benefit in cases of under occupation are estimated to be in receipt of disability www.education.gov.uk/childpovertystrategy living allowance. [54190] The strategy embodies our determination to tackle child poverty, as set out in the coalition’s Programme Steve Webb: Using the Department’s Policy Simulation for Government. It sets out how our radical reform Model, we estimate that around 200,000 households are programme will help to transform people’s lives and likely to be affected by the introduction of the size break cycles of disadvantage. 319W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 320W

Our strategy focuses on the most vulnerable groups progress towards the four child poverty targets defined in society recognising that to help children who live in in the Child Poverty Act 2010; and if he will make a poverty we must; reform welfare to make work pay and statement. [55259] helping those who are struggling to enter the labour market. We will give dignity to those who cannot be expected to work by bringing forward proposals to reform disability payments. For those who are able to Maria Miller: The most recently published figures are work, we will provide targeted help to get the best set out in the following tables 1 and 2. They show that outcomes for them and their families. there are still 2.6 million children in relative poverty in the United Kingdom. The gap between the poorest and We will do all in our power to increase the life richest in our society has accelerated over the last five chances of children by supporting vulnerable families years despite £150 billion having been spent on tax through expanding the network of health visitors, targeting credits alone since 2003-04 leaving Britain more divided child care for the most disadvantaged and investing in than it has been in a generation because of a failure to early intervention. By increasing standards in education, tackle the root causes of poverty. we will raise children’s aspirations and narrow the gaps in attainment which play such a crucial role in defining On 5 April, the Government published the first national children’s future lives. child poverty strategy, ‘ANew Approach to Child Poverty: The strategy sets out a new, broader approach to Tackling the Causes of Disadvantage and Transforming measurement that goes beyond a narrow focus on income Families’ Lives’. This strategy draws together policies targets. We will develop better ways to measure poverty, from right across Government, as well as looking at the including responding to Frank Field’s recommendations role of partners outside of national government, which on severe poverty and life chances indicators, to better will act together to tackle the causes and effects of child capture the experience of living in poverty and reflect poverty. The strategy illustrates our radical new approach, the Government’s overarching commitment to increasing including key structural reforms, to get to the root of social mobility. tackling child poverty.

Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government remain committed to their goal of Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of eradicating child poverty by 2020.

Table 1: The number and percentage of children living in (a) relative poverty (before housing costs) (b) absolute poverty (BHC) and (c) low income (BHC) and material deprivation in financial year 2009-10

Number (million) Percentage

(a) Relative poverty 2.6 20

(b) Absolute poverty 1.4 11

(c) Low income and material deprivation 2.0 16

Notes: 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income (HBAI) data sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). These use disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard of living. They cover the United Kingdom. The Households Below Average Income report can be found at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai 2. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 3. The reference period for Households Below Average Income figures are single financial years. 4. Numbers of children in low-income households have been rounded to the nearest 100,000, while proportions have been rounded to the nearest percentage point. 5. These statistics are based on incomes before housing costs. 6. Each of the measures is defined as: Relative poverty: children living in households with less than 60% of contemporary median household income before housing costs Absolute poverty: children living in households with less than 60% of 1998-99 median household income before housing costs held constant in real terms. The 2020-21 target will be measured against median income in 2010-11 held constant in real terms. Low income and material deprivation: children living in households with less than 70% of contemporary median household income before housing costs who also experience material deprivation. Source: Households Below Average Income, DWP

Table 2: The percentage of children living in persistent poverty (before housing costs) in the period 2005-08 Percentage

Persistent poverty 12 Notes: 1. These statistics are taken from the DWP publication, ‘Low Income Dynamics 1991-2008’ based on data from the longitudinal British Household Panel Survey (BHPS) run by the University of Essex Institute for Social and Economic Research. They cover Great Britain. The Low Income Dynamics report can be found at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=lid 2. The table shows the percentage of children who are below the 60% of median income in at least three out of four years in a series of consecutive four year periods. This is the definition of persistent poverty used in the Child Poverty Act 2010. 3. Low Income Dynamics 1991-2008 does not provide an estimate of the number of children this is. The four targets in the Act are based on proportions. 4. The table presents results on the persistence of low income on a Before Housing Costs (BHC). However the housing costs in the BHPS differ from ones usedinthe Households Below Average Income publication. The BHPS defines housing costs as simply as weekly gross housing costs recorded on the BHPS. Rents include service and water charges, but these are excluded the housing costs of mortgage payers. In addition, BHPS includes both repayments and interest in the housing costs of the mortgage payers where as the HBAI exclude the repayments from housing costs. 5. Proportions of children living below 60% of median income in at least three out of four years have been rounded to the nearest percentage point. Source: Low Income Dynamics 1991-2008, DWP 321W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 322W

Social Security Benefits: Autism from the applicants GP,to determine whether the applicants care and/or mobility needs are sufficient to justify an award. Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps his Department takes to Jobcentre Plus is committed to providing individual support (a) people diagnosed with autism and (b) tailored support to customers with autistic spectrum their families in the delivery of its services. [47141] conditions using our services. We make required reasonable adjustments, including making use of the most suitable environment or premises for conducting interviews. Where Maria Miller: In the Pension Disability and Carers individual customers ask us to we work with their Service (PDCS) we have existing specific learning provided families and representatives to facilitate access and by the Professionalism in Decision Making and Appeals participation with our services. (PIDMA) body within the former Disability and Carers Service (DCS). The course is Understanding Working Where family members are carers Jobcentre Plus will Age and Child Customers which has a section on help support them so they are not forced into hardship understanding the impact of a learning disability specifically by their role. Our Care Partnership Managers help covering Autistic spectrum disorders. This course is for develop services for carers by working in partnership all appropriate disability living allowance and attendance with relevant organisations, assessing demand for support allowance decision making staff and covers all the and encouraging the development of local services such issues to consider when deciding on entitlement to the as replacement care. They ensure advisers have benefit. comprehensive up to date knowledge, skills and local information in order to provide effective support for Additionally we are currently building a modified carers who would like to combine work with their and updated version of that learning product for our caring responsibilities. local service customer liaison managers (CLMs) to We ensure our advisers are aware of the need to make reflect their newly widened responsibilities for dealing suitable adjustments for people with autistic spectrum with visits, where required, to all of the Department’s conditions. Our specialist disability employment advisers “vulnerable client groups”. CLMs have received the receive additional skills training including provision existing PIDMA course above in the interim as part of about autism. the preparation for implementation for the new service. The new course is intended to build on that by providing Our Raising The Game On Disability Seminars also learning more specifically tailored to visiting officers promote disability awareness and confidence and are and part of a whole suite of new learning products for available to all Jobcentre Plus staff. The seminars feature Local Service to be delivered from autumn 2011 onwards. advice on working with customers with Autism. Consequently, this learning does cover the issues visiting In addition, if a person is in receipt of attendance officers need to cover with the families of children with allowance or DLA care component at the middle or Autism. For example, topics included are: highest rate, a second person, who may or may not be a Common: family member, may be able to claim carer’s allowance provided they satisfy the conditions of entitlement. Identifying needs that might arise from childhood impairments In Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission Understanding developmental milestones in childhood and (CMEC) one of the Commission’s values is being client how these are taken into account in assessing needs arising from disability focused. In order to provide a first class service, we need to ensure our services are accessible to them. At the Describing issues that might arise during visits to households point that they first contact the Commission, clients are with a disabled child asked about their specific requirements to enable them Providing guidance in the completion of the DLA claim pack to access Commission services. Specifically included in the course covering ″Autistic This information is taken from our ’Single Equality Spectrum Disorders″ are: Scheme 2010 to 2013’ which is published on the Parents’ attitude/concerns/protection of their disabled child. Commission’s website. Discuss stereotyping—The living arrangements of the family what difference does this make? Social Security Benefits: Suicide The grief/loss cycle and its impact on parents/making a claim for DLA. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what (a) guidance has been issued and Tips for dealing with emotional customers (b) training is provided to staff of his Department on Empathy—What is it? How to use empathy dealing with claimants who make threats of suicide; Local Service is the only direct customer facing service and if he will make a statement. [55638] within PDCS. All other customer interaction is via correspondence, telephone or the internet with the sole Chris Grayling: Since the Department was formed, exception of dealing with certain complaints, where there has been a range of guidance, advice and training face to face contact is required. for staff on how to deal with customers who make threats of suicide or say they intend to harm themselves. Disability living allowance is paid on the basis of a persons need for help with care and mobility. It is not, Prior to 2004, Jobcentre Plus staff were provided in general, paid in respect of a particular diagnosis such with written advice from DWP occupational psychologists. as Autism. decision makers from the Pensions Disability In 2004 to 2005 guidance on how to manage customers and Carers Service, make decisions based upon the who were indicating they may commit suicide was included information supplied by the customer, in many cases in the Pathways to Work training for Jobcentre Plus using supporting evidence, for example a factual report staff. 323W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 324W

In 2006 the DWP occupational psychologist team Corporation Tax published a guide for staff on how to respond appropriately to customers who were intending to harm themselves. Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer In 2008 the Mental Health Coordinator role was what recent assessment he has made of the extent of introduced and “Introduction to Mental Illness” training avoidance of corporation tax by businesses trading in was developed. This training, which is intended for all the UK. [50034] staff, includes a section on “responding to suicide declarations”. Mr Gauke: Corporation tax is chargeable on the This guidance was revised in March 2011 to form a taxable profits of liable companies and organisations new DWP policy framework on ″Managing customers’ based in the UK and on the taxable profits arising from suicide and self harm declarations″. The framework the UK activities of liable non UK based companies summarises the plans and procedures that must be in and organisations. place, as well as current best practice, advice and guidelines. HMRC estimate that the annual corporation tax gap The new guidance was issued to all DWP staff on 30 as a result of avoidance by businesses managed by March to ensure that all staff who work with customers HMRC’s Large Business Service was £2.9 billion in are aware of how to respond appropriately in such 2008-09. This estimate was published in ’Measuring situations. Tax Gaps 2010’ http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/measuring-tax-gaps- Universal Credit 2010.htm.pdf in September 2010. The Large Business Service is Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work responsible for over 770 of the largest businesses that and Pensions what terms of reference his Department pay a significant proportion of the total business taxes has agreed with the Social Security Advisory and duties that HMRC collects. Committee on its review of passporting arrangements In addition, HMRC published an illustrative estimate under universal credit; and if he will make a statement. of £0.7 billion for the annual corporation tax gap in [55982] 2008-09 due to avoidance by large and complex businesses. These businesses are smaller than those managed by the Chris Grayling: The Minister for Welfare Reform, my Large Business Service but have annual turnover in noble Friend Lord Freud of Eastry, has formally excess of £30 million or have at least 250 employees. commissioned the Social Security Advisory Committee to carry out an independent review of passported benefits An estimate of the corporation tax gap due to avoidance and the links with universal credit and we will produce a by small and medium-sized businesses has not been written ministerial statement with the terms of reference produced. shortly. Departmental Billing

Gordon Banks: To ask the Chancellor of the TREASURY Exchequer (1) how many invoices his Department received in respect of goods or services supplied by tier Child Tax Credit: EU Nationals 1 suppliers between 1 May 2010 and 1 April 2011; and how many of those invoices were not paid within the David T. C. Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the period of time specified in the Government’s Fair Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of Payment guidance; [55867] people from other EU countries who have made (2) what mechanism his Department has established fraudulent claims for child tax credits in the latest to ensure its payments are passed through the supply period for which figures are available. [52911] chain to each tier in accordance with the last date for payment defined in the Government’s Fair Payment Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) do guidance. [55890] not keep records of the levels of error and fraud within working tax credit and child tax credit by country or Justine Greening: The Fair Payment guidelines cover nationality. payments in respect of construction contracts. The Treasury does not currently have any contracts relevant Commodity Markets for the purposes of the guidelines.

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Chancellor of the Departmental Correspondence Exchequer what assessment he has made of the potential long-term effect on global commodity prices Mr Winnick: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of trends in the economies of (a) Brazil, (b) the pursuant to the answer of 13 May 2011, Official Report, Russian Federation, (c) India and (d) China. [56404] column 1391W, Members: correspondence, what the reasons were for the time taken to transfer the letter Justine Greening: The effect on commodity prices of from the hon. Member for Walsall North to the Department economic growth in emerging economies is widely for Communities and Local Government. [56350] acknowledged. The Chancellor has used analysis from leading economic organisations such as the International Danny Alexander: The Treasury received the letter on Monetary Fund (IMF) and the International Energy 26 April and confirmed transfer on 11 May, within Agency (IEA) on this issue. eight working days. 325W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 326W

EU Budget Oil: Prices

Graham Stringer: To ask the Chancellor of the Jesse Norman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the likely Exchequer what steps he is taking to mitigate the effect on the future level of UK contributions to the effects on consumers of high oil prices. [56258] EU budget of implementation of the European Commission’s proposals for the future own resources Justine Greening: In recognition of high current oil of the EU. [56230] prices, fuel duty was cut by 1p per litre on Budget day (23 March 2011). The planned 2011-12 increase will be Justine Greening: The European Commission has yet deferred to 1 January 2012. In addition, the previous to issue formal proposals for the 2014-20 Multiannual Government’s fuel duty escalator has been abolished Financial Framework. However, the UK Government and replaced with a fair fuel stabiliser. are not in favour of the introduction of an EU tax As a result of this measure, pump prices could be directly to fund the EU budget. The UK continues to approximately 6.7p per litre lower than under the fuel defend the principle of tax sovereignty. duty escalator by 2015-16. This reduction in price will Projections for UK’s gross and net contributions to help mitigate the impact of high oil prices on consumers. the EU budget are provided by the Office for Budget Responsibility in its Economic and Fiscal Outlook. The Revenue and Customs: Training latest publication (March 2011) is available online at: http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/econ-fiscal- Mr Knight: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer outlook-march.html what the cost to his Department was of training for HM Revenue and Customs staff in self-defence techniques in 2010-11; what type of training is Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands provided; and who provides such training. [55464]

Conor Burns: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Gauke [holding answer 16 May 2011]: Only a Exchequer whether his Department assessed the merits small proportion of HMRC officers receive physical of raising the top rate of income tax to a rate higher self-defence training. The total number is approximately than 50 per cent. [53347] 1,250 individuals, some 2% of total HMRC staffing. The vast majority of those who receive training do so Mr Gauke: In an age when businesses, capital and because they are required to conduct arrests using the people are increasingly mobile, high tax rates send a powers contained in the Police and Criminal Evidence negative signal to individuals and businesses who are Act 1984, or equivalent powers in Northern Ireland and looking to work and invest in the UK. The Government Scotland. The remainder are trained because the risk believe 50% rate would do lasting damage to the UK’s assessment relating to their work indicates that such economy if it were to become permanent. training is necessary for their own safety. That is why the Chancellor made clear in his Budget The Department currently has eight senior instructors, 2011 speech that the 50% rate is a temporary measure, who are trained by the National Police Improvement and has asked HM Revenue and Customs to assess the Agency (NPIA) in the ACPO-approved Personal Safety revenue it raises when self assessment data for the Techniques curriculum. This incurred a one-off cost of 2010-11 tax year is available. approximately £1,500 per senior instructor. By successfully completing this training, these officers are accredited Conor Burns: To ask the Chancellor of the “trainers of trainers”, so they are able to train and Exchequer what estimate his Department made of the accredit other HMRC staff to act as instructors. The revenue implications for the Exchequer of raising Department currently has approximately 50 such instructors, the top rate of income tax from 40 per cent. to (a) 41, a number of whom are currently under training. (b) 42, (c) 43, (d) 44, (e) 45, (f) 46, (g) 47, (h) 48, All of the techniques taught are within the ACPO (i) 49 and (j) 50 per cent. [53358] approved Personal Safety Training manual. However, only the techniques appropriate to HMRC officers’ Mr Gauke: The Exchequer costs of increasing the roles and powers are taught. higher rate of tax for income tax can be approximated from Table 1.6 ‘Direct effects of illustrative tax changes’, The costs to HMRC for this training fall under two available on the HM Revenue and Custom’s website at: general headings: payments to the NPIA for the training of senior instructors; and payment for the hire of suitable http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax_expenditures/table1-6.pdf venues to carry out the training. In 2010-11, the Department paid approximately £6,000 to the NPIA for the training Conor Burns: To ask the Chancellor of the of four senior instructors, and £32,250 to various venues, Exchequer what analysis his Department undertook of mainly private gymnasiums. the potential revenues to be raised from the setting of the 50 per cent. top rate of income tax. [53359] Tax Avoidance

Mr Gauke: The estimated Exchequer yield from the John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the additional rate of tax was published by the previous Exchequer what steps he has taken to counter tax Government in Table A11 of March 2010 Budget, avoidance since May 2010; when his Department last available at: discussed the Government’s tax avoidance policies with http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100407010852/ (a) the HM Revenue and Customs and (b) officials http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/budget2010_annexa.pdf from the Public and Commercial Services Union; and 327W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 328W how many meetings he has had since May 2010 with Tax Collection hon. and right hon. Members at which tax avoidance policy was discussed. [56245] Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what guidance his Department has given to HM Revenue and Customs on maximising the collection of Mr Gauke: The Government are committed to tackling tax revenues. [55977] tax avoidance and since May 2010 has set out their strategic approach and explained action being taken to Mr Gauke: In my remit letter to HM Revenue and ″ put it into practice in the Budget document Tackling Customs for 2011-12, I set out the key priorities I expect ″ Tax Avoidance available at: the Department to focus on in the coming year. My http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/2011budget_taxavoidance.pdf letter makes clear that the highest of these priorities The Government have also shown their strong support continues to be HMRC’s role as the administrator and for HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) in its operational collector of tax revenues that fund the UK’s public work by providing investment of £917 million over the services and help reduce the deficit. This includes the spending review period to tackle avoidance, evasion and Department’s commitment to deliver an additional £7 criminal attack with the objective of bringing in around billion per annum by 2014-15 in tax revenues from an £7 billion per year in additional revenue by 2014-15. increased focus on tackling non-compliance, evasion and avoidance. HM Treasury Ministers frequently discuss tax policy HMRC’s remit letter can be found on HMRC’s website issues with HMRC officials and work closely with HMRC at: on the issue of tax avoidance. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/ls-remit-letter.pdf HM Treasury Ministers and officials also have meetings with a wide variety of organisations as part of the Tax Yields: Financial Services process of policy development and delivery. It is not the Government’s practice to provide details of such meetings. Mr Darling: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what proportion of the total tax take of (a) income and (b) corporation tax was received from the John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the financial services industry in (i) 1979-80, (ii) 1987-88, Exchequer what his most recent estimate is of the tax (iii) 1992-93, (iv) 1997-98, (v) 2001-02, (vi) 2006-07 and gap; and when he next plans to make such an estimate. (vii) 2009-10. [55812] [56246] Mr Gauke [holding answer 16 May 2011]: The information requested has been compiled from published Mr Gauke: HMRC’s most recent estimate of the tax sources and is set out in the tables. gap is £42 billion for 2008-09. This was published in Income tax ’Measuring Tax Gaps 2010’ in September 2010 Figures are available for Pay-As-You-Earn Income http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/measuring-tax-gaps- Tax deducted from pay. The proportions shown in the 2010.htm.pdf following table are based on the Standard Industrial An estimate of the tax gap for 2009-10 will be published Classification. This has changed over time meaning that in ’Measuring Tax Gaps 2011’ later this year. figures are not directly comparable across years.

Pay-As-You-Earn income tax deducted from pay Standard Industrial Classification (SIC) base used Financial sector share (percentage)

1979-80 SIC 1968—Insurance, banking and finance 6.1

1987-88 SIC 1980—Banking finance and insurance 7.0 1992-93 SIC 1980 7.4

1997-98 SIC 2003—Financial intermediation 11.6 2001-02 SIC 2003 13.3 2006-07 SIC 2003 14.6

2009-10 — n/a n/a = Not yet available. Note: Excludes national insurance contributions and tax on pensions collected through PAYE. Also excludes income tax not collected through PAYE, for example collected through Self Assessment. Sources: Inland Revenue Statistics and HMRC Statistics (various editions)

Corporation tax Corporation tax net receipts The following table shows the proportion of net Percentage receipts relating to financial sector both including and Proportion of net receipts from the financial sector excluding life assurance. The breakdown is based on Excluding life assurance Including life assurance HMRC’s Summary Trade Classification. An industry breakdown for corporation tax is not available for years 2001-02 25 33 prior to 2000-01. 2006-07 24 27 329W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 330W

Corporation tax net receipts Welfare Tax Credits: Expenditure Percentage Proportion of net receipts from the financial sector Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Chancellor of the Excluding life assurance Including life assurance Exchequer with reference to table 4.15 of the Economic 2009-101 13 16 and Fiscal Outlook of the Office for Budget 1 The figures for 2009-10 are subject to change as payments originally made in Responsibilities, what expenditure on each tax credit respect of a group of companies are re-allocated to individual companies within scheme is represented by the figure given for overall tax the group. Note: credit expenditure. [51561] The table excludes advance corporation tax. Source: Mr Gauke [holding answer 26 April 2011]: The Calculated from figures in Table 11.1 of HMRC statistics: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/corporate_tax/table11_1.pdf information requested can be found in table 2.9 (rows 20 to 23) at the following: Taxation: Aviation http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/wordpress/ docs/obr_fiscal_supplementary_tables1.xls Graham Stringer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his policy is on proposals for an EU-wide flight tax to supplement the contributions of member states to the EU budget. [56217] BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Justine Greening: The European Commission has yet to issue formal proposals for the 2014-20 Multiannual Agricultural Products: EU External Trade Financial Framework. However, the UK Government are not in favour of the introduction of an EU tax Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State directly to fund the EU budget. The UK continues to for Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) tariff and defend the principle of tax sovereignty. (b) non-tariff barriers discouraging agricultural imports to the EU from (i) Algeria, (ii) Morocco, (iii) Taxation: Land Egypt and (iv) Tunisia he has identified. [56339]

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Davey: A range of tariff and non-tariff barriers Exchequer (1) pursuant to the answer of 23 November apply to agricultural imports to the EU from Algeria, 2010, Official Report, column 285W, on taxation: land Morocco, Egypt and Tunisia. Tariff barriers are governed what research he has (a) commissioned and (b) by bilateral Association Agreements between the EU evaluated on a land value tax since the Lyons Inquiry and the respective countries, and vary considerably into Local Government; [56129] product-by-product and country-by-country. Limited (2) if he will make it his policy to introduce a land agricultural tariffs remain for Egypt for example, which finalised a revised Association Agreement in 2010 whereas value tax; and if he will make a statement. [56130] Algeria has yet to negotiate substantial revisions and so Mr Gauke: There has not been any further research faces higher tariffs. Key non-tariff barriers remain for since the Lyons Inquiry and there are no plans to all countries including seasonal restrictions, Sanitary implement a land value tax at this time. However, all and Phytosanitary Standards, complex rules and regulations, taxes are kept under review as part of the Budget and weak trade facilitation. process. Arms Trade: Export Controls Trade Unions Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Raab: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to how many staff of (a) his Department, (b) the Asset publish the next quarterly Country Pivot Report on Protection Agency and (c) the UK Debt Management strategic export controls. [56338] Office are entitled to work (i) full-time as trade union representatives and (ii) part-time on trade union Mr Prisk: The next quarterly Country Pivot Report activities; how many such staff are paid more than on strategic export controls covering data for licences £25,900 annually; and what the cost to the public purse issued, refused and revoked is due to be published in of employing such staff on such duties was in the latest week beginning 4 July. This report will cover data from period for which figures are available. [56442] January to March. Thereafter data are published with a three month time-lag i.e. data covering April to June is Justine Greening: HM Treasury has one member of due to be published in October and so on. staff, who spends 60% (full-time equivalent) of their time working as a trade union official. As fewer than Departmental Billing five staff are employed to work as union officials it is not HM Treasury policy to provide salary information Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for that could be attributed to an individual. Business, Innovation and Skills how many invoices his The Asset Protection Agency has no staff engaged as Department received in respect of goods or services trade union representatives. supplied by tier 1 suppliers between 1 May 2010 and 1 The UK Debt Management Office has no formal April 2011; and how many of those invoices were not union recognition so no staff are employed on trade paid within the period of time specified in the union activities. Government’s Fair Payment guidance. [55876] 331W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 332W

Mr Davey: Between 1 May 2010 and 1 April the For the senior civil servants in this Department, the Department paid 61,837 invoices. Of these, 51 invoices two-year pay freeze applies for 2011-12 and 2012-13 so were not paid within the 30 calendar day target and they will not receive payments to reflect (a) seniority. 3,013 invoices were not paid within the aim of paying (b) The Department’s SCS current pay on promotion 80% of all invoices in five working days. policy is an uplift of base pay of 10% on promotion to the next higher pay band. This policy will continue for Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 but future plans for 2012-13 have not yet been Business, Innovation and Skills what mechanism his decided. Department has established to ensure its payments are (c) The Department follows a framework for SCS passed through the supply chain to each tier in pay set out by Cabinet Office. Non-consolidated accordance with the last date for payment defined in performance payments are usually made to reflect the Government’s Fair Payment guidance. [55898] retrospective performance in the previous appraisal year. This Department has not yet determined the level or Mr Davey: The Department works closely with its distribution of these awards within this framework for tier 1 suppliers to ensure that payments are passed 2011-12. Future SCS pay proposals are subject to annual through the supply chain by: Cabinet Office guidance. reviewing payment performance of tier one suppliers as part of the standard contract management process; Foreign Investment in UK ensuring tier 1 suppliers include in the relevant contract a provision which requires the tier one supplier to pay any tier two suppliers within 30 days; and Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for enabling tier 2 suppliers to report any concerns they feel have Business, Innovation and Skills what progress the not been adequately addressed direct to the Department or via Government has made in securing greater inward the Office of Government Commerce’s supplier feedback process. investment to (a) England and (b) the UK. [55132]

Departmental Data Protection Mr Prisk [holding answer 12 May 2011]: In the financial year 2009/10, the UK attracted a total of 1,619 Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) projects, down Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for by 7% on 2008/09. Within this total, 1,409 projects were Business, Innovation and Skills how many contracts his in England, down by 9% on 2008/09. This performance Department holds which allow contractors to store is against the backdrop that global investment flows personal data of UK citizens overseas; to which contracts declined by approximately 40% in 2009/10. this applies; in which countries the data for each such contract is held; and how many people have their data Within the overall total of 1,619 FDI projects into the UK in 2009/10, UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) stored overseas under each such contract. [55732] assisted a total of 759 projects, confirmed as locating or expanding in the UK up by 26% on 2008/09. Mr Davey: The Department is unable to categorically state the contracts or contractors which allow the storage Within the overall UK total of 759 UKTI assisted of personal data overseas. Information and communications projects in 2009/10, 701 FDI projects were confirmed as technology and estate contracts are managed centrally locating or expanding in England also up by 26% on and, for those, we are not aware of any personal data 2008/09. being stored overseas. As all other contracts are not The Inward Investment results for the UK for the managed or held centrally, the detailed information financial year 2010/11 will be announced on 12 July requested could be provided only at disproportionate 2011. cost. Higher Education: Admissions Departmental Pay Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation and Skills how much funding he plans to Business, Innovation and Skills what additional pay he allocate to advertising campaigns aimed at persuading plans to provide to officials in his Department in the students to take up places in higher education in 2011-12. period from 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2013 to reflect [55921] (a) seniority, (b) promotion and (c) performance. [55408] Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) considers it essential to ensure that prospective students and their families know about the Mr Davey: The Department entered the two-year full package of support available, to support access to civil service-wide pay freeze for staff outside the senior higher education. civil service (SCS) in 2010. However, this Department received legal advice that showed that one of the two BIS has allocated the amount of £1.475 million to the pay systems in operation in the Department includes a recently launched information campaign aimed at potential contractual entitlement to progression. The Department students considering entering university from September is currently considering what will be paid to staff under 2012. these arrangements during 2011-12. The final settlement The Student Loan Company has been allocated some which will cover (a) seniority, (b) promotion and (c) £1.3 million in the current financial year to provide performance is unknown yet as it subject to negotiations information, advice and guidance aimed at informing with our trade unions. Future pay proposals are subject and encouraging potential students to apply for the to the Treasury’s annual civil service pay guidance. student support available from September. 333W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 334W

Higher Education: Private Sector Monthly statistics on the number of labour disputes are available in table 20 of the Statistical Bulletin for Labour Market statistics at: Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether (a) he and (b) www.statistics.gov.uk Ministers in his Department have met representatives However, ONS does not produce figures on the number of working hours lost over this time period. The table below contains of any company providing for-profit higher education the latest, statistics available, which give the number of working in the United States since his appointment; whether days lost per year as a result of labour disputes since 1997. they have met representatives of (i) Bridgepoint, (ii) Lincoln, (iii) Kaplan, (iv) Corinthian, (v) Apollo, (vi) Total number of working days lost Kaiser, (vii) Education Management Corporation, in year (Thousand) (viii) Rasmussen, (ix) Career Education Corporation and (x) Westwood in that period to discuss possible 1997 235 operations in the UK; and if he will make a statement. 1998 282 [56157] 1999 242 2000 499 Mr Willetts [holding answer 17 May 2011]: Ihave 2001 525 met with representatives of Apollo Group Inc. Separately, 2002 1,323 I have met with representatives of Kaplan UK and 2003 499 Kaplan Europe but not their US parent corporation, 2004 905 Kaplan Inc. I have also met with a representative of 2005 157 Education Management Corporation. I have not held 2006 755 official meetings with representatives of the other specific 2007 1,041 bodies referred to. 2008 759 The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and 2009 455 Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince 2010 365 Cable), and I meet regularly with a wide range of Source: providers of higher education in the UK and internationally ONS Labour Disputes Inquiry as part of our efforts to encourage a more diverse and Intellectual Property and Growth Review competitive higher education sector in England. The Department does not hold comprehensive information Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for on whether higher education providers which, Ministers Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has received have met, are classed as for-profit or not-for-profit the report by Professor Ian Hargreaves on his Review institutions. A quarterly-updated list of all BIS ministerial of Intellectual Property and Growth; and when he meetings with external organisations is also available at: plans to publish that report. [55706] http://data.gov.uk/dataset/disclosure-ministerial-external- meetings-department-for-business Mr Davey: The Secretary of State for Business, Higher Education: Procurement Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), received the report by Professor Ian Hargreaves on his Review of Intellectual Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Property and Growth. Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of the implications for the university sector of I am pleased to confirm that the Secretary of State the recent Supreme Court judgment in the case of and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Brent borough council and others v. Risk Management Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), published the Review Partners Limited. [56153] of Intellectual Property and Growth yesterday; copies were placed in both Libraries of the House. Mr Willetts: Universities are autonomous bodies and they will wish to consider the implications of this ruling Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for the ways they procure insurance and other services. for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will schedule publication of his Department’s response to the Review of Industrial Disputes Intellectual Property and Growth by Ian Hargreaves to enable scrutiny of the review by select committees and Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for others to be taken into account in the response. [55830] Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the number of hours of work lost as a result of Mr Davey: The Secretary of State for Business, industrial action in each year since 1997. [55237] Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), and the Chancellor of Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Tatton The information requested falls within the responsibility (Mr Osborne), published the Review of Intellectual of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Property and Growth (“the Hargreaves Review”) yesterday; to reply. copies were placed in both Libraries of the House. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated May 2011: The Government will publish their substantive response before the parliamentary recess. That substantive response As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question will reflect the need for any further consultation. We do asking what estimate he has made of the number of hours of not believe the timing of the Government’s response work lost as a result of industrial action in each year since 1997. will prevent any interested party, including select committees, [55237] from scrutinizing the Hargreaves Review itself. 335W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 336W

New Businesses this forum, education and skills action plans will be developed for priority countries, such as Brazil, Russia, Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for India and China, based on an analysis of the commercial, Business, Innovation and Skills what recent steps his educational, and political opportunities each present. Department has taken to encourage new business Globalisation of higher education, including the start-ups. [55220] importance of international student recruitment, is one of the areas to be covered in the forthcoming HE White Mr Prisk: The coalition Government are committed Paper. to creating the right long-term environment to help many more people start and grow their enterprise. That Overseas Students: Entry Clearances is why the Government have: Introduced a package of reform to reduce rates of corporation Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, tax, including cutting the small profits rate from 21% to 20% from 1 April 2011; Innovation and Skills when he expects the Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education and Ofsted to Introduced a regional national insurance holiday worth up to £50,000 for new businesses; commence the access to education accreditation process for those higher education institutions with highly trusted Increased the point at which employers start to pay national insurance contributions, benefiting employers by over £3 billion a status whose intake of students for September 2011 has year from 2011-12; and been frozen because of the non-availability of such accreditation in the current academic year. [56410] Expanded the planned new enterprise allowance, to help the unemployed become self employed. Damian Green: I have been asked to reply. Furthermore, we are significantly changing the way help and advice is provided to business. This Department The Home Office, Department for Business Innovation has engaged across Government and with the private and Skills and Department for Education are working sector to develop and communicate the specific support with the relevant inspection and review bodies to finalise that will help start-ups, including: arrangements for the new educational accreditation A user friendly range of on-line tools, audio-visual training regime, and will announce further details shortly. and checklists to support people wanting to start-up, tested by business customers and building on the current businesslink.gov.uk Post Offices offerings, including key elements of starting up such as business planning, as well as tax calculators and other useful guides. This will be available from November 2011; Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for A new national contact centre for those who cannot access the Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many sub-post information they need on the website also available from November; offices have changed ownership since May 2010; A network of up to 40,000 experienced business mentors [56464] offering practical advice to existing businesses and people who (2) how many post offices have closed since May want to start a business; and 2010. [56465] Establishing Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs) that will develop links to existing private sector provision for business Mr Davey: The information requested is an operational support, including start-ups, and to encourage their use. In the matter for Post Office Ltd. I have therefore asked Paula Budget 2011 it was also announced that 21 enterprise zones will Vennells, the managing director of the Post Office Ltd, be created across England and they will seek to stimulate selected areas of the country through tax breaks, reduced planning restrictions to respond directly to the hon. Member and a copy of and ″superfast″ broadband. her reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House. Overseas Students Post Offices: Bank Services Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for Department is taking to support universities to attract the future availability of banking facilities via the Post students from (a) Brazil, (b) the Russian Federation, Office network. [56463] (c) India and (d) China. [56340]

Mr Willetts: Universities in the UK are autonomous Mr Davey: We set out our policy on the future of the and develop their own strategies for competing in the Post Office network in our statement “Securing the Post global student market, and are extremely competent at Office Network in the Digital Age”, published on 9 doing so. The world-class reputation that the higher November 2010. In this statement we were clear that we education (HE) sector enjoys means that the UK attracts will support the Post Office as it expands further into more students to study here than any country other financial services through the provision of new products than the US. The Government works with and supports and as it aims to increase access to UK current accounts the British Council overseas to promote the UK as a through the Post Office network. study destination. The Department is working closely with other Whitehall Postal Services Departments and partner organisations, including the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, to develop a strategic Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for approach to international education and skills. The Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has International Education and Advisory Forum, which I made of the number of access points for postal services chair, brings together key players in this arena. Through required to meet the needs of the public. [56524] 337W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 338W

Mr Davey: Under the Postal Services Bill, Ofcom will DEFENCE have a duty to carry out their functions in a way that they consider will secure the provision of sufficient Armed Forces: Young People access points to meet the reasonable needs of users. It is expected that in fulfilling that duty, Ofcom will conduct Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for thorough research and analysis, and will consult users Defence pursuant to the answer of 27 April 2011, in order to take their views into account. Any assessment Official Report, column 417W, on armed forces: young by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for people, if he will write to hon. Members outlining the Business, Innovation and Skills will be informed by guidelines and procedures specifically covering the care Ofcom’s analysis. and welfare of those under the age of 18 in the armed forces. [56532]

Regional Growth Fund Nick Harvey: The document entitled, “Policy on the Care of Service Personnel under the Age of 18”, is available in the Library of the House (Reference DEP Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2009-0737). Innovation and Skills in which (a) regional and (b) local enterprise partnership area each successful bid EU Defence Policy approved in the first round of the Regional Growth Fund is based. [54051] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the outcomes of the Mr Prisk [holding answer 4 May 2011]: Successful EU Military Committee meeting with Chiefs of bids from Round 1 of the RGF have been announced. Defence from EU member states on 3 May 2011; what 50 bids have been given conditional allocations, subject framework is in place for the pooling and sharing of to due diligence, totalling just over £450 million; 27,000 military resources across the EU; what access to UK direct jobs created and safeguarded; and 100,000 indirect military resources he has given to other EU countries; jobs. and if he will make a statement. [55516] The following list gives details a more detailed breakdown: Mr Gerald Howarth: The EU Military Committee meeting with Chiefs of Defence on 3 May 2011 covered East Midlands and South East Midlands: two main topics: capabilities and operations. The session South East Midlands Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEP): on capabilities focussed wholly on pooling and sharing one successful bid of military capabilities, where member states showed Derby, Derbyshire, Nottingham and Nottinghamshire LEP: broad support for the initiative. Chiefs of Defence also one successful bid discussed current operations. Leicester and Leicestershire LEP: one successful bid Although work is under way in the EU and NATO to North East: improve the transparency of current pooling and sharing North Eastern LEP: 11 successful bids activities among member states and to generate opportunities for the pooling and sharing of military Tees Valley LEP: five successful bids capabilities in the future, there is no specific framework North West: in place in Europe for the pooling and sharing of Cheshire and Warrington LEP: one successful bid military resources. Decisions concerning military capabilities Greater Manchester LEP: four successful bids to be pooled and shared are subject to, and potentially constrained by, matters of national sovereignty. Although Liverpool City Region LEP: four successful bids the work is being co-ordinated by these institutions, we South East and East of England: are clear that the initiative must be member state driven, Kent, Greater Essex and East Sussex LEP: one successful bid and conducted voluntarily. South West: As at 12 May 2011, the UK contributes to the following Heart of the South West LEP: two successful bids military Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) missions: Operation ALTHEA (peacekeeping in Bosnia), West of England LEP: one successful bid Operation ATALANTA (counter-piracy off Somalia) One successful bid not in a LEP and EUTM Somalia (training Somali security forces in West Midlands: Uganda). Coventry and Warwickshire LEP: two successful bids Hard and Soft Power Greater Birmingham and Solihull LEP: one successful bid Stoke and Staffordshire LEP: two successful bids Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Worcestershire LEP: one successful bid what recent assessment he has made of the relative Yorkshire and Humber: merits of (a) hard and (b) soft power. [56348] Leeds City Region LEP: five successful bids Mr Gerald Howarth: The National Security Strategy Sheffield City Region LEP: one successful bid and Strategic Defence and Security Review took decisions One successful bid not in a LEP on defence, security, intelligence, resilience, development and foreign affairs capabilities in the round. Since this Other bids—national: Government took office the Ministry of Defence has Two national bids not in a single LEP reinvigorated its focus on the role which Defence diplomacy Total = 50 bids. can play in promoting the United Kingdom’s interests. 339W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 340W

Libya: Armed Conflict As I have stated previously, it is a matter for other nations to decide for themselves what weapons they deploy. The UK is not itself using depleted uranium Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for weapons in Libya. Defence how many missions the (a) Nimrod R1, (b) Sentinel R1, (c) VC-10 and (d) C-130 have flown in Strategic Defence and Security Review Operation Ellamy. [53570] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Dr Fox: Up to 8 May 2011 the UK has flown the for Defence what progress he has made towards following sorties in support of Operation Ellamy: achieving the non-frontline savings identified in the Strategic Defence and Security Review; and if he will 1 Aircraft type Number of sorties make a statement. [50294] VC10 110 C130 15 Dr Fox [holding answer 4 April 2011]: The outcomes of the Strategic Defence and Security Review including Nimrod 20 the actions required to achieve savings of £4.3 billion in Sentinel 50 1 the non-frontline formed the basis of the Department’s Numbers are rounded to the nearest five. annual Planning Round (PR) 11 and PR 12, which is under way. As part of this process we keep a range of Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for options under consideration regarding future spending. Defence how many sorties have been flown over Libya by UK armed forces; and in how many such sorties USA: Military Bases weapons have been deployed. [54517] Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will publish the 1973 Cost Sharing Defence (1) how many sorties the (a) GR4 Tornado Agreement with the US concerning US military bases and (b) Typhoon has flown in Operation Ellamy; what in Great Britain. [55527] type of mission was flown in each case; and how many weapons of each type were released; [53569] Nick Harvey: I am withholding the 1973 UK/US (2) how many dual mode Brimstone missiles have Cost Sharing Arrangement concerning US military bases been used by UK forces in Operation Ellamy to date. in the UK, as its disclosure would or would be likely to [53594] prejudice relations between the United Kingdom and another state. Dr Fox: Up to 8 May 2011 the UK has flown about 300 GR4 Tornado and 140 Typhoon sorties as part of Operation Ellamy. Both aircraft types have conducted INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT missions to protect civilians in support of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, and the Typhoons have also Departmental Mobile Phones conducted missions in support of no-fly zone enforcement. In all, approximately 240 weapons have been fired by Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for these aircraft during these missions. These were a International Development what the name is of each combination of Dual Mode Seeker Brimstone and Storm contractor or supplier of (a) mobile telephone and (b) Shadow missiles, Enhanced Paveway II and Paveway IV mobile data services to his Department. [56066] Precision Guided Munitions. I am unable to provide a breakdown of these figures for reasons of operational Mr Duncan: The Department for International security. Development’s (DFID’s) UK mobile telephones and mobile data services are provided by Vodafone. Overseas offices have devolved responsibility for purchasing mobile Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for telephones and mobile data services. Collating the Defence pursuant to the answer of 27 April 2011, information on the providers used by the Department’s Official Report, column 418W,on Libya: armed conflict, overseas offices would incur disproportionate cost. whether officials of his Department have had discussions with their counterparts in (a) the US Administration Ethiopia: Overseas Aid and (b) governments of other countries that are part of the coalition for military action in Libya on policy on Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the use of depleted uranium weapons; whether his International Development which civil society organisations Department has received any reports on the use of in Ethiopia his Department consulted in the course of depleted uranium weapons by coalition partners; and if its bilateral aid review; and if he will make a statement. he will make a statement. [55567] [56471]

Nick Harvey: Defence officials routinely undertake Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Government work with a policy discussions with their counterparts in foreign wide range of local and international civil society governments across a full range of issues, including organisations (CSOs) in Ethiopia, including Oxfam, matters relating to Libya. It would not be appropriate Plan International, Save the Children and WaterAid. to disclose details of these discussions or any official We routinely engage with these partners to share reporting received from governments in the coalition information and to discuss current issues and programmes. for military action in Libya. During the Bilateral Aid Review, we used this ongoing 341W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 342W dialogue to discuss DFID’s evolving priorities and investment announcements for Grangemouth, Pembroke programme and invited CSOs to discuss these at a more and Stanlow refineries which show the long-term vitality detailed, technical level. of the sector. We work closely with the industry and its As our programme in Ethiopia evolves, DFID will representatives to understand the impact of policy on forge new partnerships with the private sector and the sector. others, and our existing partnerships with CSOs will need to become more focused on selected issues of Offshore Wind Capacity mutual interest and achieving results. Overseas Aid 23. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what target he has set for the amount of electricity to be generated by Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for offshore wind capacity by 2020. [56275] International Development what steps he takes to ensure that his Department’s bilateral aid is used for Charles Hendry: The UK National Renewable Energy the purposes for which it is intended. [55946] Action Plan (NREAP) published in July 2010 set out an Mr Duncan: The Government have rigorous systems illustrative breakdown of the final shares of different and procedures to ensure effective financial oversight of types of renewables technology in 2020. The precise its funding and to ensure that aid achieves maximum breakdown of the 2020 renewable energy target between value for money and delivers results for its intended technologies will depend on how investors respond to recipients. the support we have put in place. We subject all UK aid to rigorous financial auditing, monitoring and evaluation processes. For all grants Carbon Emissions provided by the Department for International Development (DFID), we require evidence about the use of funds Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy from the partners’ own audited accounts, or other audited and Climate Change what assessment he has made of arrangements as agreed. DFID requirements are built the Carbon Trust’s analysis of trends in total UK into the funding agreement which details: the annual emissions including imports up to the 2020s; if he will audit requirements; the monitoring and review request the Committee on Climate Change to requirements; and the option for the Government to investigate the issue of outsourced emissions; and what take any reasonable and necessary steps to address the action his Department is taking to address such situation in the event that there is any significant failure emissions. [56303] in the commitments set out in the agreement. For all new UK aid programmes approved from Gregory Barker: DECC recognise the importance of January this year, the Government have also modified the impact on emissions of the whole life cycle of the the way DFID programmes are designed so that they products we consume, and the increasingly global nature are based on rigorous evidence of what works and what of supply chains means that there is a more and more maximises value for money and results through the complex picture of where in the life history of a product introduction of a business case model. All DFID projects the emissions actually arise. The Government’s Sustainable are scored annually against expected results. Under the Consumption Programme is working to identify and new Aid Transparency Guarantee we will ensure business help reduce the lifecycle carbon and other environmental cases for all projects as well as annual reviews and impacts that are associated with UK consumption, project completion reports are published on the DFID wherever in the world those impacts occur. website so they can be scrutinised by the British taxpayer. However, the approach agreed internationally—under The National Audit Office audits DFID’s accounts the UNFCCC and the Kyoto protocol—is for countries and scrutinises our systems for ensuring effective to work towards emission reduction targets related to management and proper use of the development budget. direct emissions within their territories. We have also created a new Independent Commission DECC is pushing strongly at the international level for Aid Impact, the first of its kind, which is able to for an ambitious global agreement on reducing greenhouse scrutinise any area of UK bilateral and multilateral aid gas emissions, which will ensure that action is taken to spending. tackle climate change regardless of where products are produced. The work programme for the CCC is planned and ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE managed through an annual business planning process agreed between the Government, devolved Administrations Oil Refineries and the CCC. The Government have no immediate plans to ask the CCC to undertake work on embedded 21. Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State emissions. for Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking to provide incentives for investment in oil refineries. Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State [56273] for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the contribution to global carbon emissions Charles Hendry: The Government recognise the attributable to (a) Brazil, (b) the Russian Federation, important role of the refining sector in the UK’s economy (c) India and (d) China (i) in 1990, (ii) on the most and seek to ensure that the right conditions exist to recent date for which figures are available and (iii) in attract and retain investment. We welcome the recent 2020. [56402] 343W Written Answers19 MAY 2011 Written Answers 344W

Gregory Barker: There are a number of sources of (iii) 2020 projections information on greenhouse gas emissions in Brazil, Business as usual Assuming Copenhagen Accord pledges are met in Russia, India and China. Official inventory figures full submitted to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Total greenhouse gas Total greenhouse gas Change Secretariat are available for 1990 emissions in emissions (including emissions (including Brazil and Russia, and also for 2005 and 2008 respectively. Country LULUCF) (MtCO2e) LULUCF) (MtCO2e) The World Resources Institute Climate Analysis Indicators Russian 2,500 2,500 Tool database may be used for estimated totals for Federation China and India in 1990 and provides an estimate for 1 In December 2010 Brazil published the BAU they intend to use as the basis of China in 2005. India’s Ministry of Environment and their pledge (Presidential Decree No. 7390), which is 3,200 MiC02e in 2020. 2 This assumes that India achieves its National Action Plan on Climate Change. Forests has provided national emissions inventory figures Data sources for (iii): for 2007. United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP): The Emissions Gap Report: http://www.unep.org/publications/ebooks/emissionsgapreport/ With regard to projections for 2020, the 2010 UNEP Note that these figures are the median 2020 projections across the 13 models used in this report. Emissions Gap Report provides median 2020 projections Copenhagen Accord country mitigation pledges are listed on the UNFCCC for these and other countries across 13 models. website: http://unfccc.int/meetings/cop_15/copenhagen_accord/items/5262.php The information from these sources is summarised in the following tables: Committee on Climate Change (i) 1990 Greenhouse gas emissions Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Total greenhouse gas Total greenhouse gas Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has emissions (excluding emissions (including made of the recommendations of the Fourth Report of LULUCF) LULUCF) Data the Committee on Climate Change; and if he will make Country (MtCO2e) (MtCO2e) source a statement. [56571]

Brazil 600 1,400 UNFCCC Gregory Barker: As the Secretary of State for Energy China 3,600 3,800 CAIT and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), announced on 17 May India 1,100 N/A CAIT 2011, Official Report, columns 176-77, and in line with the recommendations of the Committee on Climate Russian 3,300 3,400 UNFCCC Change, the Government have proposed setting a legally Federation binding target for greenhouse gas emissions for the (ii) Recent emissions data fourth Carbon Budget period of 2023 to 2027 of 1950 Total Total MtCO2e—a 50% reduction on 1990 levels. In agreeing greenhouse gas greenhouse gas with the Committee’s recommendations the Government emissions emissions (excluding (including are delivering on their promise to be the greenest LULUCF) LULUCF) Data Government ever. Country (MtCO2e) (MtCO2e) source Year Trade Unions Brazil 900 2,200 UNFCCC 2005 China 7,200 7,200 CAIT 2005 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy India 1,900 1,250 India 2007 Environment and Climate Change how many staff of his Ministry Department are entitled to work (a) full-time as trade Russian 2,200 1,600 UNFCCC 2008 union representatives and (b) part-time on trade union Federation activities; how many such staff are paid more than Note: £25,900 annually; and what the cost to the public purse Figures for emissions from land use, land use change and forestry (LULUCF) data are not available for India in 1990. of employing such staff on such duties was in the latest Data sources for (i) and (ii): period for which figures are available. [56440] UNFCCC national communications: http://unfccc.int/ghg_data/items/3800.php World Resources Institute (WRI) Climate Analysis Indicators Tool (CAIT): Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and http://cait.wri.org Climate Change (DECC) follows the ACAS Code of India’s Ministry of Environment and Forests: Greenhouse Gas Emissions 2007: http://moef.nic.in/downloads/public-information/Report_INCCA.pdf Practice “Time off for Trades Union Duties and Activities”. (iii) 2020 projections During 2010-11 one member of DECC staff was Business as usual Assuming Copenhagen entitled to work as a full-time trade union representative Accord pledges are met in and 12 members of staff were entitled to work as full part-time trade union representatives. Total greenhouse gas Total greenhouse gas emissions (including emissions (including Eight of the 13 representatives, have a full-time equivalent Country LULUCF) (MtCO2e) LULUCF) (MtCO2e) salary of more than £25,900 per annum. Brazil 12,700 1,700 The cost of employing such staff on such duties China 12,600 11,500 between 1 April 2010 and 31 March 2011 was around India 3,400 22,800 £46,000.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 19 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 475 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Carbon Capture and Storage ...... 481 Green Deal...... 479 Climate Change Legislation ...... 491 Green Deal...... 490 Eco Island Initiative...... 482 Green Deal and Renewable Heat Incentive ...... 480 Electric Vehicles ...... 482 Independent Fuel Poverty Review...... 483 Energy Bill (Consumer Protection) ...... 488 National Policy Statements ...... 487 Energy Company Obligation...... 477 Offshore Wind Farms ...... 484 Energy-intensive Industries ...... 488 Onshore Wind Energy...... 488 Gas Supply...... 486 Renewable Heat Incentive ...... 478 Green Deal...... 475 Tidal Energy ...... 489 Green Deal...... 476 Topical Questions ...... 491 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 19 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 23WS HEALTH...... 33WS Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer (19-20 May 2011) ...... 23WS Affairs Council (Luxembourg 6-7 June 2011) .... 33WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 33WS DEFENCE...... 24WS Equality and Human Rights Commission Report of the Select Committee on the Armed (Triennial Review)...... 34WS Forces Bill (Government Response) ...... 24WS Justice and Home Affairs Council...... 34WS Section 19 of the United Kingdom Borders Act ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 26WS 2007 ...... 33WS Ofgem Review: Summary of Conclusions...... 26WS JUSTICE...... 37WS Draft Charter for the Coroner Service for ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Consultation ...... 37WS AFFAIRS...... 27WS Performing Wild Animals in Circuses ...... 27WS LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 38WS Members’ Salaries...... 38WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 27WS TRANSPORT ...... 39WS Pre-Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Review of Investigation/Closure Procedures for Council (23-24 May 2011)...... 27WS Motorway Incidents...... 39WS PETITIONS

Thursday 19 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 1P TREASURY ...... 1P Coastguard Services (Falmouth) ...... 1P Child Benefit...... 1P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 19 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 286W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Crime: Prosecutions ...... 286W Foreign Investment in UK ...... 332W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 286W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 332W Departmental Travel ...... 287W Higher Education: Private Sector...... 333W Higher Education: Procurement...... 333W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 330W Industrial Disputes ...... 333W Agricultural Products: EU External Trade...... 330W Intellectual Property and Growth Review ...... 334W Arms Trade: Export Controls ...... 330W New Businesses ...... 335W Departmental Billing ...... 330W Overseas Students ...... 335W Departmental Data Protection...... 331W Overseas Students: Entry Clearances ...... 336W Departmental Pay ...... 331W Post Offices ...... 336W Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued HOME DEPARTMENT...... 298W Post Offices: Bank Services ...... 336W Alcoholic Drinks: Children...... 298W Postal Services...... 336W Animal Experiments ...... 299W Regional Growth Fund ...... 337W Antisocial Behaviour...... 299W DNA: Databases...... 299W CABINET OFFICE...... 290W Domestic Violence: Advisory Services ...... 300W Census ...... 290W Drugs...... 300W Civil Servants: Early Retirement ...... 291W Entry Clearances: Private Education...... 301W Community Relations ...... 291W Greater Manchester Police Authority...... 301W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 291W Members: Correspondence ...... 302W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 292W Victim Support Schemes: Newcastle upon Tyne..... 302W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 278W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 277W Audit Commission: Government Procurement Accommodation ...... 277W Card...... 278W Parliament: Environment Protection...... 277W Eco-towns ...... 279W Times of Sittings...... 278W Empty Property ...... 279W Energy Performance Certificates...... 280W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 340W Gurkhas: Resettlement...... 280W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 340W Housing: Construction...... 281W Ethiopia: Overseas Aid ...... 340W Land: Databases ...... 282W Overseas Aid...... 341W Religious Buildings: Planning ...... 282W JUSTICE...... 288W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 275W Coroners ...... 288W Departmental Billing ...... 275W Corruption...... 288W Departmental Data Protection...... 275W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 288W Telecommunications: Hearing Impairment ...... 275W Fixed Penalties...... 289W Television: Local Broadcasting ...... 276W Risley Prison: Suicide...... 289W Sexual Offences: Convictions ...... 290W DEFENCE...... 338W Armed Forces: Young People...... 338W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 282W EU Defence Policy ...... 338W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 282W Hard and Soft Power...... 338W Research ...... 283W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 339W Trade Unions ...... 283W Strategic Defence and Security Review ...... 340W USA: Military Bases ...... 340W SCOTLAND...... 293W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 293W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 341W Devolution...... 293W Carbon Emissions...... 342W Offshore Industry: Profits ...... 293W Committee on Climate Change ...... 344W Scottish Grand Committee ...... 293W Offshore Wind Capacity ...... 342W Oil Refineries ...... 341W Trade Unions ...... 344W TRANSPORT ...... 306W Departmental Information Officers ...... 306W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 306W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Driving: Insurance ...... 307W AFFAIRS...... 294W Large Goods Vehicles: Accidents ...... 307W Fisheries: Quotas ...... 294W Motor Vehicle: Testing...... 308W Fishing Vessels ...... 297W Motor Vehicles: Insurance ...... 308W Floods: Greenwich...... 297W Regional Airports ...... 308W Floods: Insurance ...... 297W Shipping: EU Law...... 309W Hydrofluorocarbons ...... 298W Shipping: Smoking...... 309W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 283W TREASURY ...... 323W Council of Europe: Finance...... 283W Child Tax Credit: EU Nationals...... 323W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 284W Commodity Markets...... 323W South Sudan ...... 284W Corporation Tax ...... 324W Syria: Politics and Government...... 285W Departmental Billing ...... 324W Uganda: Homosexuality ...... 285W Departmental Correspondence ...... 324W EU Budget ...... 325W HEALTH...... 302W Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands ...... 325W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 302W Oil: Prices...... 326W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 303W Revenue and Customs: Training...... 326W Departmental Travel ...... 303W Tax Avoidance ...... 326W Fluoride ...... 303W Tax Collection...... 328W Fluoride: Southampton...... 304W Tax Yields: Financial Services...... 328W Hospitals...... 304W Taxation: Aviation ...... 329W North Cheshire Hospitals NHS Trust...... 305W Taxation: Land ...... 329W Nurses: Manpower...... 305W Trade Unions ...... 329W Southern Cross Healthcare ...... 306W Welfare Tax Credits: Expenditure ...... 330W Col. No. Col. No. WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 287W WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Equality Act 2010 ...... 287W Employment and Support Allowance: Chronic Left Handed People: Equality...... 288W Fatigue Syndrome...... 316W Employment and Support Allowance: Visual Impairment...... 316W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 309W Housing Benefit ...... 317W Child Support Agency ...... 309W Housing Benefit: Disability...... 317W Children: Maintenance ...... 311W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower ...... 318W Departmental Pay ...... 313W Poverty: Children ...... 318W Disability Assessments ...... 313W Social Security Benefits: Autism...... 321W Disability Living Allowance...... 314W Social Security Benefits: Suicide...... 322W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 315W Universal Credit...... 323W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Thursday 19 May 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 475] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Climate Change

Wild Animals (Circuses) [Col. 497] Answer to urgent question—(Mr Paice)

Business of the House [Col. 504] Statement—(Sir George Young)

McNulty Report and West Coast Rail [Col. 520] Statement—(Mr Philip Hammond)

Backbench Business [27th allotted day] BBC World Service [Col. 536] Motion—(Richard Ottaway)—agreed to Rural Broadband and Mobile Coverage [Col. 557] Motion—(Rory Stewart)—agreed to

East Coast Main Line Call Centre [Col. 602] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Constitutional Reform (Wales) [Col. 141WH] Severn Crossings Toll [Col. 167WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 23WS]

Petitions [Col. 1P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 275W] [see index inside back page]