American Prophets Interviews with activists, visionaries and poets by Paul E Nelson. Introduction Thinkers/Activists 6. Gloria DeGaetano 20. Rupert Sheldrake 32. Jean Houston 48. Larry Dossey Poets 62. Jerome Rothenberg 74. Allen Ginsberg 90. Anne Waldman 105. Sam Hamill 121. Michael McClure 136. Brenda Hillman 149. Nathaniel Mackey Technicians of the Sacred 162. Phyllis Curott 178. Bhagavan Das 192. E. Richard Atleo 205. Beaver Chief 1 As I go back over these interviews, some of the best of the 450 hours of radio programming I produced between 1994 and 2004, there are a flood of thoughts which come rushing into my head. The first is how fortunate I have been to be able to meet such amazing minds and try to put them in the best possible light to get their, sometimes revolutionary, ideas to a larger audi- ence. These interviews were used as Public Affairs programming, those hours that radio stations were once required to do to earn their licenses in a time when it was understood that radio airwaves were part of the commons. Fat chance you’ll get owners and government regulators to understand that concept now. These visionary authors, activists and poets with their presence and their books (which I read before interviewing them) expanded my own consciousness a great deal in those years and further emboldened me to dig deeper, creatively, to polish my own gesture, first as a radio interviewer and community activist and later, as a poet and essayist. To hear a suburban mom (Gloria DeGaetano) refer to the Theodor Adorno concept of the “industry-generated-culture” is one such remarkable juxtapo- sition featured on this radio interview program. And how that one phrase says so much. Though she’s under the Thinkers and Activists section of the book, she has a way with language that is both reassuring and revolutionary. To understand the depth and complexity of the historic era in which we live, there can be fewer guides more capable than Jean Houston who understands and demonstrates with her own life how this is, indeed, “Jump Time” and we were born for it, in one way or another. How invisible fields affect our lives is barely comprehended in our culture, even though electrical fields make our modern lives possible. Rupert Shel- drake’s work on Morphogenetic Fields is controversial, but until someone comes up with a better theory, I find his work quite remarkable. He does un- derstand quite thoroughly the paradigm shift in our time from a mechanistic cosmology, highlighting competition and domination, to that of honoring re- lationships and a world-view that is organismic in nature. The sooner we grasp this as individuals and as a culture, the sooner we’ll be able to address the many crises that are affecting the species’ very existence in the system we call Earth. I first became aware of the whole-systems approach through the healing arts, so it was quite an honor to be able to pick the brain of Larry Dossey, a doc- tor who was honored for his wartime service and who understands the shift in the way we look at healing by combining a notion from quantum physics, non-locality, to something that would seem very conventional and, perhaps, old-fashioned, prayer. Having the opportunity to interview the late Allen Ginsberg was quite in- timidating at first. The look on is face when he’d mention something from the history of American poetry made me feel about three feet tall because of my own ignorance of the subject, but I hung in there with him and vowed to dedicate my life to a better understanding and appreciation of that subject after meeting him. His thoughts about how the Reagan administration plot- ted to spend so much on military spending in an effort to eliminate all other federal government programs seem quite prophetic from this post-Bush, post-911 viewpoint. Of course we once expected poets to be prophets and the group assembled here do serve that function, poets and non-poets alike. I have read that Ginsberg treated everyone who interviewed him as a potential bodhisattva and I am grateful to this day for that consideration, for sharing space with him for an hour in June of 1994 and for the legacy he leaves in my life, which I have tried to honor in many different ways. Similarly, preparing to interview Michael McClure involved a backpacking trip, a view of a pristine watershed from a vantage point of over 5,000 feet and seeing a poem of his with the words MORE ALIVE THAN I OUGHT TO BE. It was one of those magical moments when time stops and you never forget where you were when you experienced something. I was above Appleton Pass in the Olympic National Park and I have tried to visit that space annually, in September, since that moment. McClure’s work has been a huge interest of mine since that experience in 1995 and I do not think a poem will ever impact me the way Dolphin Skull did. His reading of a por- tion of it on the program continues to be a watershed moment in my life. I could go on about highlights from every interview, Jerome Rothenberg’s notion of the concept of “othering” and his love of Federico Garcia Lorca and the Dada poets. Brenda Hillman’s rare combination of anti-war activism and experimental lyric poetry. Sam Hamill’s dedication to translation, anti- war activism and poetry as a wisdom-teacher and Nate Mackey’s remarkable poetic gesture and the rare combination of powerful intelligence combined with deep soul. 3 The final chapter I give to two indigenous men, a self-described witch, and a man who was unsatisfied with his suburban existence and went to India to become enlightened. Bhagavan Das graced the program with his tremendous singing voice and helped me understand the systemic/experiential approach from an ancient perspective, the Hindi tradition. Richard Atleo and Beaver Chief get the last words as indigenous men who held on to their culture’s powerful and ancient traditions and my love and appreciation for the First People of the North American continent is demonstrated by giving them the last word here. Beaver Chief’s wisdom and love for humans survives him and I am humbled and grateful for having learned something about Coastal Salish culture from him. It feels right to bring out these interviews at this time. It is remarkable that I was able to sneak this material onto commercial radio stations in the years the programs aired and the bulk of these interviews comes from that experi- ence. Now that 911 has impacted our world, there seems to have been an in- tensification in the corporate desire to control just about anything possible. There is no way such a radio program could exist on commercial radio at this time and it is doubtful most non-commercial stations would attempt to air something so radical. But radical means affecting the root cause and in this era when we need to address the roots of global warming, massive spending on war and the destruction, misery and economic injustice caused by permanent war, the massive divide between rich and poor and the sys- tematic elimination of the commons, among hundreds of other crises, I feel these people represent the best of what America has to offer. The notion that response to crisis brings out the most innovative, novel and creative solu- tions. Author Chris Hedges believes that the corporate state is a “dead and terminal system of power.” These words resonate with me and as something more equitable approaches, I hope the words of the prophets on these pages give you some idea as to how to make that world possible, as they have for me in my own work and life. Paul E Nelson 10:01P - 1.23.12 The Whiteley Center San Juan Island, WA Thinkers/Activists 5 PAUL NELSON: What message do you think our children need to hear to be well? Is it something like, “Don’t think of others, think only of yourself. That’s the way to be cool.” Or is it, “Be like any- body else but yourself. Your unique abilities are not important. It’s how or like the image TV commercials give you that’s important.” Well, of course, no one would admit to wanting kids to get these messages, and healthy parents would want the opposite. Yet, in a land where TV is a babysitter, this is only the tip of the toxic cultural iceberg that has been unleashed in large part by the slime oozing out from your TV set. A woman who has succinctly boiled down the messages of what she calls the “industry generated culture,” has seen the results of using TV as a drug, and she has dedicated her life to helping par- ents prevent its abuse. Gloria DeGaetano is the founder and CEO of the Parent Coaching Insti- tute, and the author of several books, including Parenting Well in a Media Ag: Keeping Our Kids Human. Gloria, you know, you’re one of my favorite guests on the show. GLORIA DEGAETANO: Thank you for having me back. PAUL NELSON: Thank you for your wonderful work. It’s really amazing and inspiring, and each book is just, you know, you refine it and have new insights and . it’s such a delight to have you on. Thanks. GLORIA DEGAETANO: Thank you. PAUL NELSON: I think we might have covered this in an earlier interview, but can you tell us how you decided to dedicate your life to media activism? What was that one moment, do you remember? GLORIA DEGAETANO: Well, I think there might have been two one-moments [laughs] in one way.