COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard

WEDNESDAY, 8 MAY 1996

THIRTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIRST PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 8 MAY

Petitions— East Timor ...... 467 Census ...... 467 Notices of Motion— Gun Control ...... 467 Superannuation Committee ...... 467 West Papua ...... 468 Budget Deficit ...... 468 Electorate Staff ...... 468 Order of Business— Hazardous Waste ...... 468 Education Funding ...... 469 Education Funding ...... 469 Unemployment ...... 469 Introduction of Legislation ...... 469 Election Campaign Material ...... 469 Sydney 2000 Games (Indicia and Images) Protection Bill 1996— Australian Sports Drug Agency Amendment Bill 1996— Crimes Amendment (Controlled Operations) Bill 1996— Health Insurance Amendment Bill 1996— First Reading ...... 469 Second Reading ...... 469 Consideration of Legislation ...... 479 Notices of Motion— Introduction of Legislation ...... 480 Committees— Victorian Casino Inquiry Committee— Suspension of Standing Orders ...... 480 Procedural Motion ...... 481 Motion ...... 481 Order of Business— Indexed Lists of Files ...... 515 Matters of Public Interest— Days and Hours of Meeting ...... 515 Child Care ...... 515 Pork Producers in Queensland ...... 518 Mr Geoff Knight ...... 519 Questions Without Notice— Labour Market Programs ...... 521 Unemployment ...... 522 Economy ...... 523 Public Service ...... 524 Darling River ...... 525 Taxation ...... 526 Sale of Telstra ...... 526 Sale of Telstra ...... 528 Women in Federal Parliament ...... 529 Social Welfare ...... 530 Taxation ...... 531 Office of Multicultural Affairs ...... 532 Taxation ...... 533 Economy ...... 533 Helicopter Crash ...... 541 Matters of Public Importance— Economic Growth ...... 541 Personal Explanations ...... 553 Order of Business— Film and Video Guidelines ...... 553 CONTENTS—continued

Hazardous Waste (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Amendment Bill 1996— In Committee ...... 554 Third Reading ...... 567 Committees— Membership ...... 567 Therapeutic Goods Amendment Bill 1996 (No. 2)— Second Reading ...... 568 Order of Business— Government Business ...... 570 Governor-General’s Speech— Address-in-Reply ...... 570 Order of Business— Government Business ...... 574 Therapeutic Goods Amendment Bill 1996 (No. 2)— Second Reading ...... 574 Documents— Consideration ...... 574 Therapeutic Goods Amendment Bill 1996 (No. 2)— Second Reading ...... 574 In Committee ...... 579 Adjournment— Whistleblowing ...... 581 National Schools Constitutional Convention ...... 581 Documents— Tabling ...... 584 Indexed Lists ...... 585 Questions On Notice— Importation of Pig Middles—(Question No. 2) ...... 586 SENATE 467

Wednesday, 8 May 1996 That the Senate— (a) notes, with approval, that the Tasmanian Parliament has acted promptly and properly to introduce stronger and more effective gun The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. control laws; and Michael Beahan) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., (b) calls on all State Governments to recognise and read prayers. this achievement and to seize the opportuni- PETITIONS ty of the forthcoming police ministers’ conference to agree on strong, effective and The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged for uniform gun laws throughout Australia. presentation as follows: Superannuation Committee East Timor Senator KEMP (Victoria—Parliamentary To the Honourable the President and Members of Secretary to the Minister for Social Securi- the Senate in the Parliament assembled. ty)—On behalf of Senator Watson, I give The Petition of the undersigned draws to the notice that, on the next day of sitting, he will attention of the Senate Indonesia’s continued denial move: of human rights to the people of East Timor. (1) The select committee known as the Select Your Petitioners ask the Senate to call on the Committee on Superannuation, appointed by Australian Government to: the resolution of the Senate of 5 June 1991 1. actively support all United Nations resolutions and reappointed on 13 May 1993, be re- and initiatives on East Timor; appointed, with the same functions and 2. actively support the right to self-determination powers, except as otherwise provided in this of the people of East Timor; resolution. 3. work for the immediate release of all Timorese (2) The committee inquire into and report on political prisoners; the following matters referred to it in the previous Parliament: 4. repeal the Timor Gap Treaty; and (a) the role of superannuation funds in the 5. stop all military cooperation and commercial governance of Australian corporations, as military activity with Indonesia. referred to the committee on 27 Novem- by Senator Bourne (from 364 citizens). ber 1995; (b) the implications of the enormous growth Census in superannuation fund assets in Australia, To the Honourable the President and Members of as referred to the committee on 27 the Senate in Parliament assembled. The Petition November 1995; of the undersigned shows: (c) the use of derivatives by superannuation That the current practice of destroying the funds in Australia, as referred to the Census is denying future generations an invaluable committee on 27 November 1995; and and irreplaceable resource of data on medical, (d) the Investment Committee of the Reserve historical, social, scientific, and demographic Bank’s Officers’ Superannuation Fund, as factors. referred to the committee on 29 Novem- Your Petitioners request that the Senate should: ber 1995. Request the Government to review its current (3) The committee have power to consider and policy of destroying the Census; and support a use for its purposes the minutes of evidence proposal to retain the census forms for release for and records of the Select Committee on specific research purposes in either 70 or 100 years Superannuation appointed in the previous time. Parliament. by Senator Bourne (from 223 citizens). (4) The committee consist of 8 senators, 4 nominated by the Leader of the Government Petitions received. in the Senate, 3 nominated by the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate and 1 nomi- NOTICES OF MOTION nated by any minority groups or independ- Gun Control ent senators. (5) The nomination of the minority groups or Senator BELL (Tasmania)—I give notice independent senators be determined by that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move: agreement between the minority groups and 468 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

independent senators, and, in the absence of Treasurer’s revelation of the Leader of agreement duly notified to the President, the the Opposition’s (Mr Beazley) $8 billion question of the representation on the com- black hole in the Budget, but in fact mittee of the minority groups or independent confirms it, and senators be determined by the Senate. (iii) the round-up specifically states that the (6) The committee elect as its chair a member economic profile of resumption of strong- nominated by the Leader of the Government er growth, incorporating a period of in the Senate. temporary weakness, outlined in the (7) The committee report to the Senate on or round-up was implied in the economic before the last day of sitting in December Treasury forecast of 12 March 1996 and 1996. so was fully taken into account; and (b) regrets Senator Kernot’s incorrect statement West Papua on such a vital issue as part of her improper Senator MARGETTS (Western Austral- political campaign to deny the reality of the ia)—I give notice that, on the next day of severe budgetary problems left by the discredited Keating Government and inherit- sitting, I shall move: ed by the first Howard Government. That the Senate— Notice amended by Mr President pursuant to (a) notes: standing order 76. (i) the inadequacy of the 1969 ‘Act of Free Choice’ as a genuine expression of self- Electorate Staff determination on the part of the people of Senator McKIERNAN (Western Austral- West Papua, ia)—I give notice that, on the next day of (ii) the allegations of torture, killing, intimi- sitting, I shall move: dation and cultural suppression in West That the Senate— Papua, and (a) recognises the immeasurable contribution (iii) the strong position of the Indonesian made by electorate staff in the day-to-day military and multinational mining com- running of electorate offices; panies such as Freeport McMoran and Rio Tinto Zinc; and (b) acknowledges the fact that electorate staff (b) calls on the Government to: frequently become the ‘surrogate member’ when their senator or member is away from (i) investigate allegations of military abuses the electorate office; and human rights abuses in West Papua, (c) views, with concern, any proposal to reduce (ii) urge the World Bank to withdraw insur- the complement of electorate staff in ance cover to Freeport McMoran and Rio senators’ or members’ offices; Tinto Zinc in West Papua, and (d) calls on the Government to: (iii) cease arms exports to the Indonesian military in West Papua. (i) continue to provide all senators and members with at least 3 full-time equiva- Budget Deficit lent electorate staff, and Senator MICHAEL BAUME (New South (ii) not support any proposition to reduce Wales)—I give notice that, on the next day of electorate staff levels; and sitting, I shall move: (e) commends electorate staff for their assist- That the Senate— ance, expertise and loyalty. (a) notes: ORDER OF BUSINESS (i) the totally incorrect claim, made by the Hazardous Waste Leader of the Australian Democrats (Senator Kernot) at question time on 2 Motion (by Senator Chamarette) agreed May 1996, that the latest Treasury eco- to: nomic round-up ‘has cast doubt’ on the $8 billion deficit figure released by the That general business notice of motion No. 30 Treasurer (Mr Costello), on Treasury standing in the name of Senator Chamarette for this advice on 12 March 1996, day, relating to the Minister for the Environment (Senator Hill) and the Hazardous Waste (Regulation (ii) that, on the contrary, the round-up clearly of Exports and Imports) Amendment Bill 1996, be casts no doubts whatsoever on the postponed till the next day of sitting. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 469

Education Funding That the following bills be introduced: A bill for an act to make provision for the Motion (by Senator Chris Evans, at the regulation of the use of the use for commercial request of Senator Carr) agreed to: purposes of the indicia and images associated with That general business notice of motion No. 34 the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games and the Sydney standing in the name of Senator Carr for today, 2000 Paralympic Games, and for related purposes. relating to the national professional development A bill for an act to amend the Australian Sports program for teachers, be postponed till Tuesday, 21 Drug Agency Act 1990, and for related purposes. May 1996. A bill for an act to amend the Crimes Act 1914 Education Funding to exempt from criminal liability certain law enforcement officers who engage in unlawful Motion (by Senator Chris Evans,on conduct to obtain evidence of offences relating to behalf of Senator Carr) agreed to: narcotic goods, and for related purposes. That general business notice of motion No. 36 A bill for an act to amend the Health Insurance standing in the name of Senator Carr for today, Act 1973, and for related purposes. relating to education, be postponed till 21 May 1996. Motion (by Senator Kemp) agreed to: Unemployment That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time. Motion (by Senator Chris Evans, at the Bills read a first time. request of Senator Carr) agreed to: That general business notice of motion No. 39 Second Reading standing in the name of Senator Carr for today, Senator KEMP (Victoria—Parliamentary relating to unemployment, be postponed till 21 May 1996. Secretary to the Minister for Social Security) (9.40 a.m.)—I table the explanatory memoran- Introduction of Legislation da relating to the bills, and move: Motion (by Senator Bell) agreed to: That these bills be now read a second time. That general business notice of motion No. 37 I seek leave to have the second reading standing in the name of Senator Bell for today, speeches incorporated in Hansard. relating to the introduction of the Restitution of Property to King Island Dairy Products Pty Ltd Bill Leave granted. 1996, be postponed till the next day of sitting. The speeches read as follows— Election Campaign Material SYDNEY 2000 GAMES (INDICIA AND Motion (by Senator Reynolds) agreed to: IMAGES) PROTECTION BILL 1996 That general business notice of motion No. 10 The purpose of this bill is to protect the Sydney standing in the name of Senator Reynolds for 2000 Olympic and Paralympic Games licensing today, relating to a code of race ethics, be post- revenue from being undermined by unauthorised poned till the next day of sitting. use of the games indicia and images by corporate competitors of the official games sponsors. The bill SYDNEY 2000 GAMES (INDICIA AND will achieve this by regulating the use for commer- IMAGES) PROTECTION BILL 1996 cial purposes of the indicia and images associated with the games. AUSTRALIAN SPORTS DRUG The hosting of the Olympic Games in the year AGENCY AMENDMENT BILL 1996 2000 is an event of great significance to Australia. It provides a unique opportunity to demonstrate to CRIMES AMENDMENT the world this country’s skills, talents, environment (CONTROLLED OPERATIONS) BILL and achievements. Preparations for the games have 1996 proceeded in a very professional manner. This has been under the guidance of the Sydney Organising HEALTH INSURANCE AMENDMENT Committee for the Olympic Games (SOCOG) and BILL 1996 with a high level of cooperation between the New South Wales State Government and the common- First Reading wealth government. The organisation of the games is an inspiring venture and the public interest in Motion (by Senator Kemp) agreed to: every aspect of the build-up is intense. 470 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

The government will ensure that the cooperation uncontrolled ambush marketing activities can pose which has marked the first two years of preparation to the value of exclusive licensing rights on Olym- for the games continues. We will continue to pic Games symbols and indicia. Because ambush cooperate with SOCOG and other agencies and marketing can be very effective in creating a organisations involved in organising the games. perception that the "free-rider" is in fact an official This cooperation is to ensure that Australia’s sponsor, it can dissuade official sponsors from competitors in the games are given every oppor- continuing their association with the Olympics. It tunity to succeed and that the games will be an can also substantially reduce the amount sponsors outstanding success. are prepared to pay for the rights. The task of organising the games is very large and The preservation of sponsorship revenue is funda- complex. It is also very expensive. As the host mental to achieving a sound financial outcome for nation for the year 2000 Games, Australia will be the games thereby ensuring the least call on the expending considerable sums of money in the lead public purse. The government of NSW has under- up to the year 2000 for the construction of facilities written and bears full responsibility for any deficit and infrastructure, organisation and marketing. between the games income and expenditure. The The cost of staging the Sydney 2000 Olympic and protection of official sponsorships against ambush Paralympic Games is estimated to be around $2 marketing is therefore critical. billion. It will be shared between the organising The terms of the Host City Contract for the Sydney committees, SOCOG, and the Sydney Paralympic 2000 Olympics present obligations to the signato- Organising Committee (SPOC), the Government of ries for these matters. The host City (New South NSW and the commonwealth government. The Wales Government), the Australian Olympic commonwealth government’s overall budgetary Committee (AOC), and SOCOG are obliged to contribution to the games will exceed $400 million. ensure that there are no other marketing programs Sources of revenue to meet the costs of the Sydney in the host country which will have an impact on Games include the sale of television rights, ticket the games marketing program. sales and the licensing of the right to use the games indicia and images. After television rights, licens- The measures introduced to the Chamber today are ing, or sponsorship rights, are the most important the result of a series of initiatives from the coali- source of revenue to meet the costs of organising tion parties. In 1994 the Liberal and National and staging the games. It is expected that the Parties initiated an inquiry into the effects of revenue raised from official sponsorships would ambush marketing on sponsorship revenue for the need to be of the order of $700 million to meet the games. This followed early indications of serious revenue budget of the games. problems for the organisers, the sponsors, and therefore ultimately the tax payers. The ability of SOCOG and SPOC to attract spon- sors will depend to a large extent on the degree of In February 1995 we announced we would support exclusivity afforded to the licensed indicia and legislation to provide property rights in the words images. Official sponsors recognise the commercial and expressions and names of bodies associated value of associating themselves with events of the with the 2000 Games and the Paralympics. magnitude of the Olympic Games and are willing In March 1995 the Senate Standing Committee on to pay considerable sums of money to use the Legal and Constitutional Affairs unanimously words and symbols associated with the Olympics. supported this position. The AOC, SOCOG and the In this regard, I note that SOCOG has announced previous New South Wales Government had called that Telstra and IBM are to jointly contribute more for this legislation from the time of awarding of the than $100 million. They are the first members of games to Sydney. Team Millennium, the corporate sponsorship program for the Sydney 2000 Games. The agree- The previous government introduced the Sydney ment was negotiated in anticipation of the strength- 2000 Games (Indicia and Images) Protection Bill ening of the legislative protection of intellectual 1995 into the Senate on 29 November 1995. It did property rights associated with the Sydney Games. not introduce it in time to make it law before the proroguing of Parliament. This has created the very "Ambush marketing", however, has the capacity to real risk of part of SOCOG’s marketing revenue seriously erode the official sponsorship revenue if being siphoned off, with the cost being borne not stopped or minimised. Ambush marketing is the indirectly by Australian sport and the taxpayer. unauthorised association of businesses with the marketing of an event, such as the Sydney Games, The bill I am now introducing is essentially the without paying for marketing rights. Typically it is same as the bill introduced into the Senate last year the competitors of official sponsors of major with the exception of three minor amendments. The sporting events that engage in these activities. amendments clarify the legislation and provide Australian and overseas experience of recent additional protection in accordance with the Olympic Games has highlighted the threat that organising committees’ wishes. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 471

It gives additional protection to that provided by would be reasonably understood as suggesting that the Olympic Insignia Protection Act 1987 which the person is claiming sponsorship of, or to be protects Olympic symbols such as the five rings providing other support for the games, would be and the designs of the Olympic flame and torch. using them for commercial purposes. That Act was amended in 1994 to extend the In order to enable the public to be aware of the protection available. identity of those licensed to use the Sydney Games The new legislation will protect the use of a wide indicia and images, a register will be established range of words and expressions against ambush and maintained by SOCOG. It will be made marketing during the lead up to and including the accessible to members of the public at its office in Sydney Games. It will pick up most of the recom- Sydney. The register will also be accessible mendations made in March 1995 by the Senate throughout Australia at state Offices of the Austral- Legal and Constitutional References Committee in ian Industrial Property Organisation. An entry in its report entitled Cashing in on the Sydney Olym- the register will include details such as the name pics: Protecting the Sydney Olympic Games from and principal place of business of the licensed user, Ambush Marketing. The bill will have a limited the Sydney Games indicia and images that the period of application and will cease to have effect licensed user may use and the circumstances in after 31 December 2000. which the indicia and images may be used. A person whose name is entered on the register is to Mr President, I would now briefly outline signifi- be taken to be a licensed user of the Sydney Games cant features of this legislation. indicia or images specified in that entry. A docu- The bill seeks to provide protection to indicia ment certified by the Chief Executive Officer of encompassing words and expressions associated SOCOG, is evidence that the particulars set out in with the Olympic and Paralympic Games. Words the document are entered in the Register. and phrases such as "Olympic", "Olympiad", This bill, however, is not about placing an absolute "Paralympic", "Paralympiad", "Sydney 2000", fetter on any use of the protected Sydney Games "Sydney Games", "Millennium Games", "Team indicia and images. The government recognises that Millennium" and "Summer Games" will be protect- the preservation of sponsorship revenue is essential ed against unlicensed commercial use under this to achieving a good budget outcome for the games. legislation. Particular word combinations will also But the fundamental rights of the community to be protected under this legislation. These include, freedom of expression must be respected, particu- for example, any combinations of the words larly in relation to words that have passed into "Olympics", "Olympian", "Paralympics" and common usage. It must therefore be emphasised "Paralympian" with words, numbers or phrases such that restrictions on the usage of the Sydney Games as "Sydney", "2000", "Two Thousand", "Games", indicia and images will apply only to unlicensed "Medals", "Gold", "Silver", "Bronze", "Green and commercial use of the protected indicia and images. Gold" and "Sponsor". Moreover, it is made clear in the bill that the In addition to protecting particular words, numbers legislation is not intended to affect the working of and expressions, the bill also seeks to provide many aspects of everyday business. protection to certain images that in the circum- stances of their presentation suggest, or are likely It is recognised that some individuals and corpora- to suggest, a connection with the Sydney 2000 tions already use the indicia prescribed in the Olympic or Paralympic Games. These images may legislation in conjunction with their goods and be either visual or aural representations. services. There are for example goods and services which either have the trade marks "Olympic" or The rights in the above protected indicia and include the word "Olympic", such as "Olympic images vest with SOCOG and SPOC. These two tyres" and "Olympic Airways". This legislation is bodies have the power to use and to license others not about stopping traders who have been using to use the indicia and images identified in the these indicia and images for years from continuing legislation for commercial purposes. that use. The established rights of owners of To constitute use for commercial purposes, the registered trade marks or designs containing those Sydney Games indicia or images must be applied indicia and images remain unaffected, so long as to a person’s goods or services for advertising or the trade marks or designs are not used in a way so promotional purposes, or for enhancing the demand as to imply a connection to the games. for the goods or services, and in a manner which The use of the Sydney Games indicia or images would suggest that the person is or has been a solely for the purposes of providing information, or sponsor of, or is or has been providing other for the purposes of criticism or review, is not of support for, the Sydney 2000 Olympic or itself prohibited. Examples of such provision of Paralympic Games or both. That is, a person who information include the reporting of news and sells or promotes their goods or services by using presentation of current affairs, the factual descrip- any of the protected indicia or images in a way that tion of goods or services provided by a business 472 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

(such as stating that accommodation is available at SOCOG, SPOC or a licensed user. Most notable in a hotel that is located near the Olympic site), or the this regard are the remedies provided under the factual statements by an athlete to promote their Trade Practices Act 1974 in relation to engaging in own achievements. Examples of criticism and conduct that is misleading or deceptive. review are those which are likely to appear in The bill also includes appropriate Customs meas- newspapers, magazines or similar periodicals, in a ures to limit the possibility of the importation of radio or television broadcast, or in a cinemato- goods which seek to ambush the games marketing. graphic film. The on-going cost to the government of administer- The government recognises that the reasonable ing this legislation will be minimal. The Australian needs of sporting bodies in relation to fundraising Customs Service will be able to carry out the for and promotion of their preparation of athletes measures of this legislation relating to the monitor- and teams for the Sydney Olympic and Paralympic ing of imported goods at the barrier within their Games should be allowed to continue. Those existing resources. It is likely that the increased reasonable needs could involve use of the Sydney security of the Olympic 2000 indicia and images Games indicia or images for the purposes of will enhance SOCOG’s and SPOC’s capacity to providing factual information. As I have just ensure the financial viability of the 2000 Games explained, the bill is not intended to affect this type through its marketing program. of use. In the interests of clarity and certainty, the government believes it would be desirable for I believe that the bill introduces significant protec- sporting bodies to negotiate Memoranda of Under- tion for the Sydney Games indicia and images. The standing with SOCOG to cover their proposed use protection provided by this bill will both comple- of the Sydney Games indicia and images. The ment and enhance the protective measures already Australian Sports Commission has negotiated such in place under Australia’s current intellectual an agreement. property laws to ensure, to the extent possible, that a good budget outcome is achieved for the Sydney While strategies are being devised to ensure that 2000 Games. new business opportunities will flow to all indus- tries, including small and medium enterprises, the I commend this bill to the Senate and present the tourism industry in particular has the greatest Explanatory Memorandum to this bill. contribution to make in securing and dispersing AUSTRALIAN SPORTS DRUG AGENCY spinoff benefits from the games. It has therefore been a major concern that the legislation does not AMENDMENT BILL 1996 inhibit the capacity of tourism marketing bodies Purpose of Bill and individual firms, to undertake advertising and Mr President, this bill amends the Australian Sports promotional activities which complement the role Drug Agency Act 1990. of SOCOG and the Olympic bodies. This bill will enhance the international leadership The provision of the information clause, which I role Australia has established in the fight against have just mentioned, accommodates tourism the use of prohibited drugs in sport. marketing. That is, tourism marketing involving the provision of information that is both generic The bill will allow the Australian Sports Drug tourism promotion by official marketing bodies and Agency to work more cooperatively with Interna- factual statements about products and services by tional Sports Organisations to conduct drug tests individual firms, should not require SOCOG’s both at major sporting events and out of competi- approval. Those tourism businesses wishing to tion on an annual basis. become directly associated with the games will The bill will also ensure that this country’s success- need to apply to SOCOG. The impact of the legis- ful anti-doping program operates even more lation on tourism marketing will be monitored. efficiently and effectively. Drug testing programs The bill provides various remedies to SOCOG, will continue to deter athletes from using drugs SPOC and licensed users to enforce their rights in while at the same time ensuring the rights of relation to the Sydney Games indicia and images. athletes who undergo drug testing will not be Thus, where an unlicensed user uses Sydney Games compromised. indicia or images in contravention of the bill, Most importantly, this bill will reduce the likeli- SOCOG, SPOC or a relevant licensed user, may hood of legal challenges which may result from an bring an action against the unlicensed user. The athlete returning a positive drug test. remedies available under the bill include injunc- tions, damages and corrective advertising. However, Background in addition to those remedies, the courts have the The Australian Sports Drug Agency was established discretion to provide remedies under any law in response to the recommendations of the then (whether a law of the commonwealth, a state or a Senate Standing Committee on Environment territory) that confers any rights or powers on Recreation and the Arts. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 473

I acknowledge the considerable efforts of several Australia was also the first non-European country of my colleagues on that committee in successfully to accede to the Council of Europe Anti-Doping advocating the need for such an agency, which has Convention, which aims to harmonise anti-doping always had strong bipartisan support. programs between countries. The Coalition Sport and Recreation Policy, "En- Most significantly, following a request from the couraging Players. . . Developing Champions" Chinese Anti-Doping authorities, the Australian demonstrates the continuing support of this side of Sports Drug Agency is assisting China to establish parliament to the eradication of drugs in sport, and its own sports drug agency. the work of the Australian Sports Drug Agency . These substantial international achievements are I am pleased to say that since the establishment of only possible because of our strong and successful the Australian Sports Drug Agency, this country national anti-doping programs. The Australian has positioned itself as a leader in the international Sports Drug Agency, in concert with the Australian fight against doping, a fact recognised throughout Sports Commission and all state and territory the world. departments responsible for sport and recreation, Since its establishment, the Australian Sports Drug has coordinated the development of a National Agency has conducted more than 15,000 drug tests Drugs in Sport Framework. The Framework was and has implemented comprehensive education endorsed by all commonwealth, state and territory programs throughout schools and sports in this ministers for sport in November 1995. country. It has also developed guidelines for drug There was common recognition across all states and education for use by the international sports Territories that achieving the objectives of this anti- community. doping initiative will lead to: These programs have been remarkably successful. * Athletes around Australia being exposed to During the past year, for example, more than 3,000 consistent drug testing programs: drug tests have been undertaken by ASDA and more than 99% of tests were ‘drug free’. The * Opportunities for all elite athletes to receive Australian Sports Drug Agency has also been sport drug education; successful in working with professional sports * An emphasis on promoting the ethos that the leagues to conduct testing programs on a fee for use of drugs to enhance sports performance is service basis. cheating; and All these drug tests are analysed by the internation- * Improvements in the expertise of government ally accredited Australian Sports Drug Testing and sport to develop effective drugs in sport Laboratory in Sydney. This laboratory will analyse policy. about 2000 drug tests during the two to three weeks This government fully endorses those objectives of the Sydney Olympic Games. and commits itself to strengthening Australia’s In recent years the Australian Sports Drug Agency strong anti-doping programs through the coordi- has played an increasingly successful role in nated action of all governments in the drug in sport working internationally so that our athletes can area. compete on a more level playing field. The framework recognises the principle of natural Drug testing programs have been implemented justice and the need to respect the rights of indi- cooperatively in the international sports of Athlet- viduals. ics, Cycling, Rowing, Weightlifting, Swimming and Gymnastics. During the past 12 months the number Effective anti-doping programs which deter athletes of out-of-competition drug tests conducted by and their associates from cheating need to recognise international sports has increased by almost 50%. that everyone must be treated in a fair and just way. In its relatively brief history the Australian Sports Drug Agency has carried out the drug testing In particular, the framework recognises the rights programs for the World Swimming Championships, of young athletes. the South East Asian Games, the World The development of this framework involved all Weightlifting Championships and a host of other key players in the sport industry in both the major international sporting events. government and non-government sector. It was The government has also entered into anti-doping pleasing to see the Confederation of Australian agreements with other countries including the Sport, which represents more than 100 National United Kingdom, Canada, France, New Zealand Sporting Organisations, acknowledge the success of and Norway. This multi-lateral agreement will lead this important anti-doping initiative. to the establishment of an international benchmark This national initiative will be critical in achieving for testing programs utilising an internationally this government’s goal of a drug free Sydney 2000 recognised system of accreditation and certification. Olympic Games. 474 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Australia’s strong and committed anti-doping stance A Drug Free Sydney 2000 will require cooperation was considered a significant factor in winning the from international sport. The government is com- right to host the 2000 Olympic Games. However, mitted to working with the International Olympic the Australian sports community remains concerned Committee, the Australian Olympic Committee, and about the lack of an international level playing field the Sydney Organising Committee for the Olympic in respect to doping. The success of Sydney in Games to achieve towards this important goal. winning the right to host the 2000 Games provides This bill and our anti-doping policies are about us with a unique opportunity to further the interna- sportsmen and sportswomen and their right to tional fight against doping. compete in drug-free sport. As a result of its leadership status and with the For this reason the Australian Sports Drug Agency spotlight on Sydney 2000, the government is well has made a great effort to understand the concerns placed to demonstrate the effectiveness of its of our athletes and to ask them if they think domestic anti-doping programs and in so doing Australia’s anti-doping initiatives are achieving advocate to the international sports community the success. need for a similar stringent and effective effort. The Agency’s 1994 survey of elite athletes in This will not only be critical to the sporting and Australia showed that: financial success of the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games, but will reduce the harm to Australian * They believe ASDA’s drug testing program is athletes by ensuring that they are able to compete likely to deter elite athletes from using prohib- on equal terms. It also has the potential to re- ited drugs in sport; establish the credibility of international sport and * There is a high degree of accord with all provide a launching pad for a drug-free sporting aspects of the ASDA testing program, includ- ethos into the 21st Century. The bill will help ing the existence of ASDA testing and the achieve this goal. conduct of ASDA personnel; The government supports a comprehensive package * 73% of elite athletes rated ASDA as being of measures aimed at pursuing a drug free 2000 successful in balancing an individual’s right to Olympic Games. These measures include: privacy with the need to maximise the deter- * A drug testing program that targets internation- rent effect of the drug testing program; al athletes competing and training in Australia * The way ASDA works in the sporting com- munity has received wide endorsement with * Advocating out of competition testing pro- the majority of elite athletes believing ASDA grams by International Sports Federations consults successfully with sport; which target their top athletes on an annual basis * The wide range of sources of information on drugs in sport utilised by elite athletes reflects * Drug testing programs by SOCOG at the 2000 a generally better-informed and aware sporting Olympics and the test events leading up to the environment; and 2000 Games * 86% of elite athletes believe that a national * The maintenance of an internationally accredit- organisation, independent of sport (eg ASDA) ed drug testing laboratory in Australia and should be responsible for drug testing; continuing research to ensure new doping practices can be detected The overall conclusion from the survey is that Australia’s approach to the drugs in sport issue has * Education programs throughout school and been successful. In the core areas of drug testing, sporting communities education and policy work, the indicators that have * Anti-doping agreements between Australia and been collected for three years all suggest a positive other governments, and impact has been made and sustained by ASDA in the sporting environment. * Measures to reduce both the prescribing and illicit supply of performance enhancing drugs. These views are supported by the results of the 1993 Mugford Report entitled The Value of Sport, This package of measures will be implemented by Ethics and the Control of Performance Enhancing key organisations from the sport, health, education Drugs: A Study in the Australian Sports Communi- and law enforcement agencies in the government ty. It noted that: and non-government sector. The Australian Olym- pic Committee and the Sydney Organising Commit- * Athletes perceive the use of drugs for perform- tee for the Olympic Games (SOCOG) will play a ance enhancement primarily as cheating; critical role. It is encouraging to see SOCOG has * ASDA is succeeding in creating a climate already established its drug testing expert commit- where athletes are committed to the rules tee with a very strong ASDA involvement. rather than simply obeying them because of Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 475

the fear of detection (ie conformity rather than * encourage the establishment of means for the compliance); carrying out by Departments and authorities of * This climate makes use of performance enhan- the states and Territories of initiatives relating cing drugs much harder for athletes to justify; to drugs in sport; and and * co-operate with those Departments and auth- * Sports people identified sport as having a orities and with non-government sporting definite value to society, and clearly drug organisations to implement those initiatives. testing and educational programs undertaken This bill has been framed following widespread by ASDA protect that value. consultation throughout the sporting and legal While quite clearly Australia’s anti-doping policy communities and other interested parties. This is successful we must not become complacent. The includes the Australian Olympic Committee, the amendments in this bill will ensure that our anti- Confederation of Australian Sport, National Sport- doping programs can operate at an optimum level. ing Organisations, the Australia and New Zealand Sports Law Association, and the Privacy Commis- Major Features of Bill sion. The Amendment bill clearly defines the objectives The legislation reflects the privacy and human of the Australian Sports Drug Agency. These are: rights principles laid down in other commonwealth * to deter the use of scheduled drugs or doping legislation. In particular only those who need to methods in sport; have access to information will be informed. The government has also been concerned to protect the * to encourage the development of programs to rights of athletes and has built into the legislation educate the sporting community about matters certain appeal rights to ensure athletes are protect- relating to drugs in sport; ed. * to advocate the international adoption of Financial Impact Statement consistent and effective anti-doping programs; and The administrative and operational expenses related to staff and program costs will be determined * to coordinate the development of a consistent annually in the budget. and effective national response to matters relating to drugs in sport. The appropriation to the Australian Sports Drug Agency for 1995-96 is $3.412 million. This in- The functions of the Agency as outlined in the bill cludes an allocation to undertake 2400 "public include: interest" drug tests on Australian athletes and * development and implementation of drug international athletes who train or compete in this testing programs; country. * advocating the international development and It is anticipated that the Australian Sports Drug implementation of consistent and effective Agency will generate additional income approach- anti-doping programs; and ing $500,000 each year from "user pays" education and testing services. * to encourage Australian national sporting organisations, state and territory sporting Mr President, this legislation is clear evidence of organisations and professional sporting organi- this government’s commitment to drug free sport. sations: A commitment that is underpinned by an allocation of $20 million for anti-doping programs between * to develop and implement comprehensive and now and the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games. consistent anti-doping initiatives (including initiatives relating to testing for the use of This bill sends a clear message to the sports drugs and education about matters relating to community in this country and throughout the drugs in sport); and world that Australia intends to ‘beat the cheats’. * to use the services of the Agency and accredit- It also sends an important message to our drug free ed laboratories: athletes that this government intends to do every- thing possible to ensure that Australian sportsmen The Agency will also: and sportswomen are able to compete in sport * develop and implement initiatives that increase which is free from banned doping practices. the skills and knowledge of people involved in This is an issue which has a record of bipartisan sporting activities about matters relating to support in this Parliament, and I am confident that drugs in sport; such support will continue with the prompt passage * advocate and support research in and outside of this important piece of legislation. Australia about drugs in sport; I am sure all Senators want to ensure that our * implement anti-doping arrangements; sporting tradition for fair play remains an integral 476 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 part of our sporting success and that our children operations prior to its commencement, provided the can inherit sport, free from the use of drugs. operation was conducted in conformity with I commend the bill to the Senate. established procedures. Most importantly, the bill will provide a framework of accountability and CRIMES AMENDMENT (CONTROLLED control which will ensure that the Attorney-General OPERATIONS) BILL 1996 (as the responsible minister), the parliament and the On 19 April 1995 the High Court handed down its community have the opportunity to scrutinise the decision in the matter of Ridgeway v The Queen. usage of this power by law enforcement agencies. By a majority of 6-1 the court decided that where Many people, both in the chamber and in the law enforcement officials use a controlled operation community, might ask: why should we sanction the during an investigation into narcotics trafficking police participating in criminal activity? I stress and, as a result, commit an element of an offence that parliament has already conferred upon law with which a defendant is charged, a court should enforcement the power to do certain things which, normally refuse to admit the evidence of that if done in the absence of that legislative authority, element against the defendant. Some members of would be a criminal offence. the court (Mason CJ, Deane and Dawson JJ, at The entry onto private property without the consent page 58 of the report in 129 ALR) indicated that of the occupier is an offence of trespass; however, if law enforcement officers are to engage in police may seek a warrant which will authorise unlawful conduct in the course of investigations, a such entry upon property. The detention of a person legislative scheme authorising this conduct would may amount to false imprisonment unless the need be established. detention is pursuant to a lawful arrest or other The bill that is now before the Senate responds to similar power. The bill presently before the Senate that judgment. Senators will recall that a bill to is in a similar vein to this type of legislation which achieve the same purpose was introduced by the is in the best traditions of our system of law. previous government; that bill lapsed when parlia- ment was prorogued. The bill now before the Drug crime is peculiarly difficult to combat. Rarely Senate is based upon that previous bill but includes are there complainants about this conduct. The a number of significant improvements: importation of large quantities of drugs is a clan- destine criminal activity involving complicity, or the bill has been amended to ensure that con- participants who will remain silent for fear of trolled operations are used only for the purpose retribution. Organised crime does not tolerate of investigating major unlawful activity. The complaint. important, but sensitive, power to conduct such covert operations will not be used for the investi- As a result, the struggle against this trade involves gation of minor criminal conspiracies; very difficult choices for us as legislators and for the community. We are all committed to the the accountability mechanisms will be signifi- preservation of fundamental values such as equali- cantly strengthened by incorporating the recom- ty, privacy, freedom of expression, the right to a mendations made last year by the Senate Legal fair trial and so on. Equally however there is the and Constitutional Legislation Committee in its right of the individual to protection by the state. report on the 1995 bill; and There is a powerful public interest in opposing the a gap in the bill will be closed by protecting spread of illegal drug trafficking, and the official officers who are engaged in properly authorised corruption that it can spawn. controlled operations from the possibility of Good law enforcement is a citizen’s entitlement. It committing offences involving the importation, must be borne in mind that loss of confidence in exportation or possession of narcotics contrary to law enforcement will lead governments to measures the Crimes (Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and destructive of civil liberties. This is not such a bill. Psychotropic Substances) Act 1990. This was a The choice before us is between a society prepared possibility that was overlooked in the bill that to accept balanced legislation to counter criminals, was introduced into the parliament last year, by and a society poisoned by the conditions created by the previous government. those criminals and their activities. Apart from these points, the general purpose and The bill lays down a full and open system of thrust of the bill remain the same. accountability. The bill requires that the responsible The bill will ensure that there is a legislative base minister, at present the Attorney-General, is kept for controlled operations by law enforcement informed of all applications for a certificate confer- agencies and that the officers participating in such ring authority to conduct a controlled operation. He operations are protected from criminal responsibili- is also to be informed of the outcome of a con- ty for conduct undertaken in the course of their trolled operation at the conclusion of the operation. duty. The bill will also provide an avenue for the In turn, he is required to table a report in parlia- admission of evidence obtained from controlled ment providing details of the applications made Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 477 under the provisions of the bill and the outcome of response to organised crime is dependent upon the operations authorised under this legislation. recognition of four factors: The procedure will not lead to ‘entrapment’ of the social changes which crime causes and the people. The bill will expressly provide that entrap- fact that it diminishes the quality of life; ment is not permissible. A controlled operation may the fact that crime escalates if it is not con- be conducted only in circumstances where the trolled; targets of the operation are likely to import (or export) narcotics whether or not the operation takes recognition that there are vulnerabilities in the place. The bill will ensure that it will not be social order which expose it to exploitation; and permissible for officers to procure the commission the steps that are needed to control crime. of offences which otherwise would not have taken place. In relation to the latter point (the steps that are needed to control crime) Commissioner Fitzgerald The consequence of a certificate being found to be stated that consideration should be given to a wide invalid because the decision to issue was not range of measures which would equip law enforce- properly made will be that evidence might be held ment agencies with new powers including permit- to be inadmissible. That will be a matter for the ting ‘the infiltration of criminal groups’. Commis- court. However, it is not intended that the effect of sioner Fitzgerald concluded that orthodox policing this will be that a police officer who acted in good is quite unable to enforce the law. faith in reliance on the certificate would then be prosecuted. The situation would be different if a This bill will ensure that commonwealth law police officer dishonestly procured the issue of a enforcement agencies have available to them the certificate. The law as regards accepting or reject- controlled operation as a tool in the investigation ing evidence obtained by improper methods will be of the trade in narcotics. maintained. However, controlled operations may I turn now to discuss briefly the key features of the lead to the detection of criminals whose activities bill. The central issue in the Ridgeway decision might otherwise never be discovered, let alone was the admissibility of evidence. The High Court prosecuted. held that because of the involvement of law I should emphasise that controlled operations are enforcement agents in the importation of heroin, the an internationally accepted investigatory technique. evidence obtained thereby was fatally tainted and should be excluded from the trial of the principal On 14 February 1993 the Convention against Illicit conspirator. Honourable Senators may notice that Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Sub- the bill before them says nothing about the admissi- stances came into force in Australia. That Conven- bility of evidence. tion was implemented by legislation that com- menced operation that same day. Article 11(1) of How then, it might be asked, does the bill respond the Convention provides as follows: to the decision of the High Court? Article 11—Controlled delivery 1. If permitted The basis for the decision by the majority of the by the basic principles of their respective domes- High Court was that a trial judge has a discretion tic legal systems, the parties shall take the to exclude evidence on certain public policy necessary measures, within their possibilities, to grounds. The public policy ground in question, allow for the appropriate use of controlled deliv- which then triggers the discretion to exclude ery at the international level, on the basis of evidence, arises where illegal police conduct is an agreements or arrangements mutually consented essential ingredient of the charged offence. In such to, with a view to identifying persons involved a case there will be ‘an extremely formidable case in offences established in accordance with article for exclusion’ of the evidence by the trial judge. 3, paragraph 1, and to taking legal action against The High Court accepted that the legislature could them. sanction the use of controlled operations and that This article indicates the recognition by the interna- such a legislative regime could exempt the officers tional community of the need to employ specialised from the requirements of the criminal law. The investigative techniques, like the controlled oper- court went on to say that ‘in the absence of such ation, to deal with organised and sophisticated a legislative regime, the courts have no choice but traffickers. to set their face firmly against grave criminality on the part of anyone, regardless of whether he or she In Australia the report of the Commission of be government officer or ordinary citizen.’ The Inquiry into Possible Illegal Activities and Associ- enactment of the bill now before the Senate will ated Police Misconduct (commonly known as the ensure that the actions of law enforcement officials Fitzgerald report) also discussed the use of new engaged in a controlled operation will not incur techniques in combating organised crime. Commis- criminal responsibility and, as a result, the trigger sioner Fitzgerald concluded that an effective for the exclusion of evidence will not arise. 478 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

It should be noted that the bill, whilst protecting substance; further procedures for those operations the law enforcement officers from criminal respon- where substitution is not feasible or possible; the sibility, will still preserve the essential criminality requirements for analysis of the narcotic substance; or unlawfulness of the importation (or exportation) and the making of payments to couriers and of the prohibited narcotics. This will ensure that the informants. importation or exportation itself is not made lawful, thereby exonerating the targets of the operation These operations were conducted pursuant to these who planned the conspiracy. guidelines. The operations were closely monitored. Each of the accused alleged to have been detected It is important to describe the effect of the bill as a result of these controlled operations are upon prosecutions that are current at the time the entitled to a fair trial and the presumption of bill commences operation. There are a number of innocence. But without the passage of this legisla- investigations that are affected by the decision in tion those trials will have to be abandoned. I Ridgeway. They all involve very significant believe the community would not see that to be a participation in trafficking in narcotics, for exam- just outcome. ple: In conclusion I believe that the community expects Conspiracy to import 7 kg of cocaine (one that law enforcement agencies will make every individual); effort to catch the "Mr Bigs" of organised crime, Being knowingly concerned in the importation of not just apprehend couriers and the dealers on our 3.8 kg of cocaine (two individuals); street corners. Indeed the community has a right to Being knowingly concerned in the importation expect, to demand, that law enforcement agencies of, and possession of, 2 kg of heroin (two will act to protect them, and their children who are individuals). particularly vulnerable. This bill will satisfy that demand by providing a firm legislative basis for the I am advised by the Australian Federal Police that use of controlled operations as a device in combat- controlled operations were employed in each of ing drug trafficking. these matters. These operations were strictly regulated and rigorously controlled covert oper- Other aspects of the legislation are described in the ations. In each case they were conducted in pur- Explanatory Memorandum relating to the bill. ported accordance with the terms of a Ministerial Agreement relating to such operations and the HEALTH INSURANCE AMENDMENT BILL detailed requirements of Australian Federal Police 1996 guidelines on the conduct of controlled operations. Despite a high standard of living and generally The Ministerial Agreement was entered into on 3 adequate nutrition, significant illness and death still June 1987 between the then Special Minister of occur from diseases such as pertussis and measles, State (having responsibility for the Australian which can be prevented by immunisation. If enough Federal Police) Senator the Honourable Michael children are immunised, outbreaks of these illnesses Tate, and the then minister for Industry, Technol- will be prevented. ogy and Commerce (having responsibility for the Australian Customs Service) Senator the Honour- For example, in the United Kingdom, the recent able John Button. The agreement provided that a measles-rubella campaign has interrupted measles written request was to be made to the Australian transmission in school children, and may have Customs Service: stopped the circulation of the virus throughout the population. In March and April 1995, only 4 cases "where certain persons, goods, ships or aircraft, of measles were confirmed: 3 had recently arrived suspected or known to be carrying or having an from overseas. The fourth case involved an unvac- involvement in drugs, are required by the Aus- cinated boy of 15 months. In Australia, with tralian Federal Police or the National Crime approximately one third of the population of the Authority to be exempted from detailed customs United Kingdom, there were 229 notifications of scrutiny and control and in cases where there is measles reported during the same period. to be substitution of imported goods". Low immunisation coverage rates continue to be of Once that agreement was obtained the operation concern in Australia. Continuing epidemics of was conducted in accordance with detailed require- vaccine preventable diseases indicate that current ments of Australian Federal Police guidelines. immunisation rates are not sufficient to prevent the These guidelines run to fifty paragraphs and closely transmission of these diseases. There have been 136 regulate the considerations that should be adverted cases of measles reported for the year to date (30 to when deciding whether a controlled operation March 1996); 1284 cases were reported during should be conducted; the level at which operations 1995; 4,895 cases in 1994; and 4536 cases in 1993. must be approved; the procedures for a controlled Between 1983 and 1993 there were 41 deaths delivery involving the substitution of the narcotic caused by measles. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 479

States and Territories have been unable to ad- Information from the register forms the basis of an equately monitor immunisation coverage using optional recall/reminder scheme which will inform consistent methodology or with a reasonable degree parents or guardians when their child’s next of precision. No state or territory is able to provide vaccination is due or past due. Where a parent or immunisation coverage estimates which can guardian of a child opts out of the recall/reminder identify groups at risk of disease through incom- scheme, identifying information will not be re- plete immunisation. leased, however the inclusion of these children in In the 1994-95 Budget an additional $24 million de-identified reports will assist in the accurate was allocated to implement a number of initiatives determination of immunisation coverage rates. to increase immunisation coverage rates and curb Concern has been expressed about the compulsory the continuing outbreaks of vaccine preventable nature of enrolment on the register. However, disease. immunisation is such an important health issue, and This included funding to trial the Australian the health of the community is best served by Childhood Immunisation Register (the register) for comprehensive information. An individual’s choice children up to six years of age for a period of 18 to opt out off the recall/reminder scheme will not months. The register is administered by the Health compromise the safety of others in the community. Insurance Commission and commenced operation Disclosure of Information on 1 January 1996. Under this government funding The bill prohibits the use of information by a for the register will be continued beyond this 18 person to whom it is divulged for a purpose other month period. than that for which it was requested. Information It is anticipated that for the first time the register from the register will not be linked with other will provide a comprehensive effective management commonwealth databases. tool for monitoring immunisation coverage and State and territory bodies will be required to give improving service delivery. written confirmation to comply with the secrecy Practitioners and immunisation providers have provision of the act before the information is responded with enthusiasm to the new program and released. already a significant amount of information has Conclusion been recorded on the register. Indications are that the register will grow to provide a comprehensive The implementation of the register will provide and valuable measure of immunisation coverage in information which is not currently available about Australia. Preliminary figures indicate that approxi- immunisation coverage. It will enable the common- mately 450,000 immunisation episodes have been wealth, states and Territories to better manage recorded to date (1 April 1996). immunisation programs. The objective is to in- crease coverage rates to an extent that disease This bill will enable the Health Insurance Commis- transmission is interrupted. Experience in other sion to release information from the register to countries has demonstrated that this in an achiev- prescribed bodies for purposes relating to the able goal. immunisation or health of children. The establishment of the register is fundamental to Commonwealth, state and territory health authori- achieving this objective. ties and other prescribed bodies will be provided with de-identified information about immunisation Ordered that further consideration of the coverage rates at national, state and local levels. second reading of these bills be adjourned This information will identify areas of high risk until the first day of sitting in the Spring because of large numbers of unimmunised children sittings, in accordance with the order agreed and therefore enable immunisation programs, to on 29 November 1994. including education programs, to be effectively targeted. Ordered that the bills be listed on the With the consent of the parent or guardian, recog- Notice Paper as separate orders of the day. nised immunisation providers will be able to CONSIDERATION OF LEGISLATION establish the immunisation history of a child before administering vaccines. Senator KEMP (Victoria—Manager of Parents or guardians will be able to obtain a Government Business in the Senate)—I ask statement (by post) of the immunisations adminis- that government business notice of motion tered to their child from 1 January 1996 regardless No. 5 be taken as formal. of where in Australia the child was immunised. This information will, over time, assist parents or Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— guardians in providing evidence of their child’s Leader of the Opposition in the Senate)—by immunisation history for enrolment in child care leave—Mr President, I ask Senator Kemp, facilities or school. through you, the following in relation to these 480 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 bills: I understand that at the Whips’ meeting permanent protection to the Wet Tropics area at advice was given that these bills are effective- Tully, Queensland. World Heritage Properties ly the same as the ones that were introduced Conservation Amendment (Protection of Wet Tropics of Tully) Bill 1996. by the previous government and it is for that reason you are seeking exemption from the COMMITTEES order of continuing effect. I think it would be useful, Mr President, if Senator Kemp would Victorian Casino Inquiry Committee confirm for the advice of senators that that is, Senator SPINDLER (Victoria)—I ask that in fact, the case. general business notice of motion No. 31, Senator KEMP (Victoria—Manager of standing in my name for today and relating to Government Business in the Senate)—by the establishment of a select committee to be leave—I understand that at the Whips’ meet- known as the Victorian Casino Inquiry Select ing it was agreed that the exemption of these Committee, be taken as formal. three bills from the cut-off order would Leave not granted. depend on whether the bills were similar to Suspension of Standing Orders those which were introduced into the last Senator SPINDLER (Victoria) (9.44 parliament. I have been advised by the rel- a.m.)—Pursuant to contingent notice and at evant officials that the Australian Sports Drug the request of the Leader of the Australian Agency Amendment Bill is the same as the Democrats, Senator Kernot, I move: old one, the Crimes Amendment (Controlled That so much of the standing orders be suspend- Operations) Bill is essentially the same—it in- ed as would prevent Senator Kernot moving a cludes a number of amendments as recom- motion relating to the conduct of the business of mended by a Senate committee—and the the Senate, namely a motion to give precedence to Sydney 2000 Games (Indicia and Images) general business notice of motion No. 31. Protection Bill is essentially the same. In any government tendering process involv- Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- ing several bidders it is absolutely essential ia)—by leave—I want to confirm with Sena- that the details of each bid remain confiden- tor Kemp that the exemption motion he is tial, firstly, to ensure that the government on seeking to move refers only to the first three behalf of the community obtains the best bills and not the fourth. possible financial result and, secondly, so that each bidder is secure in the knowledge that he Senator Kemp—Yes, that is correct. or she will not be unfairly undercut by a Leave granted. competitor having knowledge of the bid’s Motion (by Senator Kemp) agreed to: details. Both aspects have wider ramifications. That the order of the Senate of 29 November Reducing the funds which should flow into 1994, relating to the consideration of legislation, public revenue will disadvantage each and not apply to the following bills: every citizen by reducing services or increas- Sydney 2000 Games (Indicia and Images) ing taxes or both. Protection Bill 1996 These matters are important. The select Australian Sports Drug Agency Amendment committee needs to be established urgently to Bill 1996 investigate the detrimental effect that has been Crimes Amendment (Controlled Operations) caused—as I will outline in a moment—to Bill 1996. Australia’s international reputation in dealing NOTICES OF MOTION with business proposals and in the general area of the relationship between business and Introduction of Legislation government. Potentially, the consequences of Senator BELL (Tasmania)—by leave—At a shoddy tendering process are even more the request of Senator Lees, I give notice that, detrimental. If businesses cannot rely on the on the next day of sitting, she will move: integrity of the tendering process, they will That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for not compete. They will not do business with an Act to amend the World Heritage Properties any Australian government. As a result, the Conservation Act 1983 to afford special and government and, therefore, the community, Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 481 will be held to ransom by businesses adding ority ‘on a strictly confidential basis’ to a a premium for dealing with a government of defined group of senior Treasury officials. bad reputation. We are told that the government was Such a reputation does not remain confined interested in how much above the budgeted to one Australian state government. Clearly, $100 million licence fee it could expect to get it will affect all Australian governments and from the successful tenderer to fund its list of the nation as a whole, and is likely to affect special projects. The information supplied to the sort of hard bargain we can and should the government’s Treasury officials, apparent- drive on behalf of this nation across a whole ly on the authority of Mr Richards, showed gamut of business activities. Areas affected that one of the bids identified only by num- are investment, the sale of assets, joint ven- bers— tures, contracting for services and so on. It is The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT therefore a national issue; and it is urgent that (Senator West)—Order! Senator Spindler, the Senate deal with my motion now. your time has expired. The terms of reference of the Senate select Senator SPINDLER—I urge the Senate to committee that is to be established relate to deal with this matter now. the legislation at Commonwealth level de- Senator Alston—I indicate that the govern- signed to achieve ethical business practices by ment is prepared to take the substantive corporations and governments alike. The issue motion. We therefore do not need to have a of Commonwealth legislation also extends to debate on the suspension motion. the question of whether it is adequate in an area which has such far-reaching effects on Question resolved in the affirmative. the nation’s economic and social wellbeing. Procedural Motion The confidentiality of the tendering process Motion (by Senator Spindler, at the re- is a well-established and important principle. quest of Senator Kernot) agreed to: Indeed, Premier Kennett acknowledged this That general business notice of motion No. 31 when he said to the Victorian parliament on may be moved immediately and have precedence 19 May 1993: over all other business today, till determined. The government has no knowledge of the contents Motion of the bids, nor does it seek that information. Senator SPINDLER (Victoria) (9.50 The state Treasurer, Mr Alan Stockdale, on 12 a.m.)—I move: May 1993 said: (1) That a select committee be appointed, to be I am not aware of the proposals made by the known as the Victorian Casino Inquiry tenderers for the casino licence, nor would it be Select Committee, to inquire into and report appropriate for me to be aware of them.’ on: Mr Richards, the chairman of the casino (a) the adequacy of Commonwealth legisla- tion in relation to casino licensing, in authority, in a radio interview on 10 October particular: 1994 said: (i) the effectiveness with which the Corpo- I want to make one other point. Right throughout rations Law operates in respect of this process, this information was not provided to casinos, including those laws dealing the government. The Premier, the Minister and with company directors, and other members of the cabinet subcommittee had no idea of what the proposals of the bid were. (ii) the need for uniform legislation to establish standards and procedures for Yet we now know, through Mr Richards—the the licensing of casinos; head of the casino authority—as quoted by (b) the adequacy of the Financial Transac- Terry McCrann in the Herald-Sun on 14 tions Reports Act 1988 in respect of March 1996, that some time in early May transactions within casinos; 1993, perhaps one week after the three com- (c) whether the granting of any licence to peting bids were lodged on 30 April, key any casino within Australia has affected information on them was passed by the auth- Australia’s overseas reputation; and 482 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

(d) whether a full judicial inquiry, Royal (11) That the committee be provided with all Commission or other form of inquiry is necessary staff, facilities and resources required into Victoria’s Crown Casino, and be empowered to appoint persons with particular reference to: with specialist knowledge for the pur- (i) the tendering process for its licence, poses of the committee with the approval and of the President. (ii) whether Australia’s best interests have (12) That the committee be empowered to been adequately protected during the print from day to day such documents and tendering process with particular refer- evidence as may be ordered by it, and a ence to the record and reputation of the daily Hansard be published of such tenderers. proceedings as take place in public. (2) That the committee consist of seven sena- (13) That the committee report to the Senate tors, as follows: on or before the last day of sitting in December 1996. (a) three nominated by the Leader of the Government in the Senate; I will now proceed with the details of the bids (b) three nominated by the Leader of the that were provided to the state government Opposition in the Senate; and Treasury officials. As I was saying, one of the (c) one nominated by the Leader of the bids would yield the government $305 million Australian Democrats. and the other, $170 million. The higher bid (3) That the committee may proceed to the was by Pacific and the lower by Crown. Yet despatch of business notwithstanding that all when Crown was declared the winner on 6 members have not been duly nominated and September 1993, after an extension of time to appointed and notwithstanding any vacancy. 30 August for so-called financial finetuning (4) That the chair of the committee be elected of the bids, Pacific’s bid had come down by and from the members of the committee. slightly and Crown’s tender had moved up to (5) That the deputy chair of the committee be beat the Pacific consortium by a few million elected by and from the members of the dollars. committee immediately after the election of the chair. Then, on 21 March 1996, two former employees of the casino control authority (6) That the deputy chair act as chair when claimed that security procedures were not in there is no chair or the chair is not present at a meeting. force during the final stages of the casino bidding process. The staff who worked at the (7) That, in the event of the votes on any question before the committee being equally authority in 1992 said that visits by represen- divided, the chair, or deputy chair when tatives of the Crown consortium, including Mr acting as chair, have a casting vote. Ron Walker, Mr Lloyd Williams and mem- (8) That a quorum of the committee be four bers of the Sheraton-Leighton group—that is, members. Pacific—went unrecorded in the contact (9) That the committee and any subcommittee summary sheets, a system that formed part of have power to send for and examine persons the protocols to ensure the integrity of the and documents, to move from place to bidding process. The Age of 21 March stated place, to sit in public or in private, notwith- that staff members had said: standing any prorogation of the Parliament or dissolution of the House of Representa- The contact summary system broke down during tives, and have leave to report from time to the critical months leading up to September 1992 time its proceedings and the evidence taken decision on the casino licence holder. and such interim recommendations as it may Mr Kennett has refused to make the contact deem fit. summary sheets public. These allegations and (10) That the committee have power to ap- the possibility that vital information about the point subcommittees consisting of three financial bid had leaked to the tenderers and or more of its members, and to refer to the question as to whether the record and any such subcommittee any of the matters which the committee is empowered to reputation of the tenderers had been suffi- consider, and that the quorum of a sub- ciently taken into account are questions which committee be a majority of the senators must be answered urgently before the alleged appointed to the subcommittee. faulty way in which the Australian govern- Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 483 ment does business further besmirches Aust- to the conduct of the government in that state. ralia’s international reputation. Damning allegations have repeatedly been The Democrats and, indeed, many others made about the legitimacy of the process have repeatedly challenged Mr Kennett to employed in Victoria to award the operating initiate a Victorian independent judicial licence to Crown Casino. inquiry to remove the rumour and innuendo These allegations have been persistent and which now surround the casino tendering widespread. They have come from bureaucrats process. Far from continuing these rumours, and they have come from other bidders who a Senate select committee inquiry would put were involved in the tender process. The an end to them by bringing forth information Victorian government has dismissed these that the community should be aware of. claims and has alleged that they are merely a The argument that it is a state matter and matter of ‘sour grapes from losers’ and hence should not be dealt with by a Senate ‘anonymous, vexatious and unsubstantiated committee is spurious. There have been slurs from disgruntled operatives’. numerous Senate and joint inquiries dealing Nothing could be further from the truth. with matters which are all at least in part ITT Sheraton is claiming that they were within state responsibilities, including the disadvantaged in a bid for one of the major Senate inquiry into the education of gifted casinos in this country. ITT Sheraton is an and talented children and the more recent international firm of high repute which was Metway Bank and whistleblower inquiries disadvantaged because, somehow or other, which, in fact, were initiated by the coalition bidding information was transferred to other parties. bidders in the process. That is, in essence, the It is very clear that this matter needs to be allegation that is being made. looked at. We would have preferred Premier The media has consistently attempted to Kennett to have run his own investigation. examine the issues raised, but has been When I say his own, I mean an independent seriously hamstrung by the onerous secrecy judicial inquiry to get to the bottom of these provisions of the Casino Control Act which allegations which hang like a cloud over was put in place in 1991. They have also Victoria. Since he has refused to do so, it is been hampered by the ongoing refusal of the important that the Senate accept the responsi- Victorian Premier to subject himself and his bility to hold government accountable in administration to open and balanced public Australia. scrutiny of any of these matters concerning Senator CARR (Victoria) (9.55 a.m.)— his government. Only this morning Sir Laurence Street called It is no coincidence that the ABC and the for national rules and national regulations for Age newspaper in Melbourne—the two media casinos in this country. Sir Laurence Street outlets responsible for raising the questions of was the person who undertook the inquiry interference in the bidding process—have into the casino in Sydney. His views, I think, been subject to persistent and sustained attack are widely respected in terms of the approach by the Victorian Premier. The Premier has that he took towards the investigations con- steadfastly rejected calls for a Victorian cerning allegations involving the casino in inquiry into the bidding process and, quite Sydney. The behaviour of the New South clearly, a royal commission would seem to be Wales government in regard to the Sydney the best way to proceed. casino quite sharply contrasts with the behav- These are substantive matters; they are not iour of the Victorian government. vexatious matters. They are substantive Sir Laurence Street’s call this morning matters which go to the question of Aust- places in sharp focus the very great need for ralia’s international reputation in terms of this inquiry to proceed. In regard to Victoria, business confidence. These matters have a it is said that the Crown Casino is the biggest profound effect on the capacity of firms to game in town. Of course, the Victorian public undertake tender processes and to have a may now believe the description best applies reasonable expectation that they will be 484 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 treated fairly without being close to govern- tered into to ensure that Hudson Conway had ment. The essence of this matter is whether or a special advantage and were rewarded in not you can get a fair go in terms of your return for various concessions entered into, business dealings in this country. particularly for the Liberal Party? Why did The public has never been given the oppor- the Premier so publicly expose his support for tunity to assess the alternatives in regard to those changes prior to their consideration by the Las Vegas style casino and gambling an independent casino control authority? theme park in Melbourne which has been Consistently, the Premier has attempted to established on the banks of the Yarra. The convince the public that the bidding process Premier of Victoria complains about the was above reproach. But the allegations have prospect of a Senate inquiry that would continued, fuelled by the incestuous alliance involve the opportunity for witnesses to take between the principals of Crown Casino, Jeff the protection of in camera evidence. What Kennett and the Liberal Party. These allega- could be more ridiculous than this claim tions of cronyism create unanswered questions coming from a premier who has undertaken about the undermining of community confi- a process which has been highlighted by its dence in the proper conduct of government behind closed doors nature? and business in Victoria, which ultimately has The whole process in Victoria has been an effect on the consideration of Australia’s based on secrecy and behind closed doors reputation at large. They are seriously under- manoeuvring. This is in contrast with the mining business confidence both inside and casino act which provided the opportunity for outside Australia. the various bids to be put on public display so It is imperative that these allegations are that the public could make some assessment addressed, not to indulge in petty political of what was happening to their city and what point-scoring, but to protect investment and was happening in terms of the processes that jobs for all Australians: not to appease bad were being undertaken. losers, but to defend our democratic institu- Legal questions arising about the tendering tions and protect the freedom of the media process were handicapped by the secrecy and the public’s interest and the public’s right surrounding that whole bidding process. Was to know. it really a competitive tendering process? Because of the despotic dismissiveness of Why was the design and operation so substan- the Victorian Premier and his contempt for tially altered after the announcement of the even minimum standards of accountability, successful bid? Why was there an increase the responsibility to put the record straight from 260 rooms to 1,000 rooms in the hotel? has fallen to the federal parliament. A proper- Why was there an increase in the building ly constituted statutory and public examin- from 22 floors to 34 floors—a substantial ation of these issues has been supported by all altering in the concept from the original and reasonable members in this chamber, of announced public position of the government course, transcending party lines. The Senate in Victoria to have a smaller rather than a inquiry will provide an opportunity to clear massive complex? Why was that done after the air in Victoria and will also provide a the arrangements were made, in complete critical review of casino licensing processes contravention of the normal planning process- nationally. es that one would expect to have been under- The Victorian Premier has characteristically taken? Why shouldn’t alternative bidders have condemned such an inquiry as a ‘McCarthyist been advised that that was the case before the witch-hunt’. Those of us who are familiar tenders were closed? with Victorian politics would find that behav- Why was the number of gaming tables iour by the Premier familiar treatment of substantially increased at a cost to Crown anybody that raises issues of public concern. which was far lower in comparison to other He has said that this is an inquiry based on casino arrangements in New South Wales and rumour and innuendo and challenged me—in Queensland? Were secret arrangements en- the public position that I have put on such Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 485 matters—to produce one factor to justify such be further from what actually occurred in an inquiry. New South Wales. I can say categorically that the current and It is public knowledge that Ron Walker, as indisputable facts are that disturbing and I read in the press, has a personal worth of collaborating allegations have emanated from the substantial figure of $125 million. Accord- a range of sources that challenge the credibili- ing to public records, he has raised over $45 ty of the Victorian government’s probity to million for the Liberal Party in recent years the very core of the cabinet inner circle, that and is reported to have personally guaranteed is, ministers Stockdale, Storey, Birrell, the $10 million overdraft from the National McNamara and Maclellan. These allegations Australia Bank to fund the campaign commit- have not been resolved and their fallout ments of the Liberal Party’s federal office. continues to destroy business confidence and From memory, on the night that John Howard community confidence. They foul the casino claimed victory, Ron Walker was one of only industry with the stench of collusion and two people he thanked from the organisation. corruption. Ron Walker has a central role in these allega- As far as I am concerned, there are a tions. We saw just yesterday with the ‘tower number of broader issues that require a much of power’ in Melbourne, through Hudson thorough and balanced public examination. Conway’s distribution of favours to the Why did the Premier believe a cabinet sub- Liberal Party hierarchy in Victoria, that Ron committee was necessary to watch over the Walker has a central role to play in the way casino control authority and the tendering in which these operations were run. process when the authority had two expert There are serious questions about the way internal committees to evaluate the planning in which the TAB was removed from the and the financial issues plus a board and a consortium in Melbourne. Very important chairman with the skills and expertise to make questions arise where Mr Williams was a the necessary judgment? board member as well as a director of Hudson Why, contrary to the normal public service Conway. I should have thought that, at the practice, were the deliberations of the sub- very least, he had a substantial conflict of committee not minuted, thus bypassing the interest that should have been explained scrutiny through the freedom of information publicly. act? Why did the Victorian government act so I have been receiving correspondence on differently from the governments in Queens- such matters from citizens in Victoria. They land and New South Wales in the process of have been raising very serious matters about granting casino licences? It is quite apparent, the TAB shares, which had an initial part in in the case of Showboat, where in 1994 the the bid of some 30 per cent. If time had builder of the Sydney casino, Leightons allowed, the TAB would have been in a Consortium, was forced to hand over its position where, I would have thought if it had shareholding to a trustee after its principals been part of the Crown consortia that was were found to be not of good repute. They successful in gaining this tender, its value were later convicted of making false state- would have been quite substantially greater ments during building tenders to obtain a than it was when it was sold off by the financial advantage. Victorian government. The Victorian taxpay- Sir Laurence Street, who I referred to ers were the direct losers as a result of the earlier, made it very clear that the proper removal of the TAB from that consortia. process was to ensure that you do not have to I would have thought that the timing of the wait for criminal inquiries to be proceeded TAB’s withdrawal from the tendering consor- with. The very fact that those matters are tia should have been subject to public investi- under investigation means that the casino gation. It is important to highlight that the authority has an independent responsibility to TAB was involved with this bid, with Mr ensure that due probity is followed. Of course, Williams being a critical player in both once again, the practice in Victoria could not Hudson Conway, the beneficiary of taking 486 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 over the TAB shares, and a member of the the control authority was altered in such a TAB board. It seems to me, at the very least, way as to provide the opportunity for these that there was a very substantial conflict of events to occur. interest in that regard. This is a matter that The Casino Control Authority requires has not received serious consideration in holders of operator licences to be of substan- Victoria. There is also the issue of the remov- tial character in terms of honesty and integri- al of Federal Hotels from the bidding process. ty. They were removed from the consortia. Very substantial issues have arisen which will I think these matters ought to be considered require very thorough investigation by a select in the light of the fact that Crown Casino committee. principal and Hudson Conway Director, Ron Walker, has a reputation as a hardnosed Some pretty basic issues have been raised business opportunist concerned with profit about the probity arrangements undertaken by rather than public interest. He has shown the Casino Control Authority. Why is it that himself to be unconcerned by protocols of there has been no proper investigation in process and conflict of interest provisions in Victoria into the quite demonstrable two-way his role as federal treasurer of the Liberal contact between senior members of the Vic- Party—I say that particularly in relation to the torian government and the authority which arrangements entered into by the National escalated during the period when the Crown Australia Bank to finance the Liberal Party bid was redrafted? Why were the probity election campaign—and as a member of the checks at the authority, which you would Committee for Melbourne. We are seeing this expect would be required in any proper in the way in which he has run the major process, not followed? Why was documenta- events company in Melbourne and the way in tion of all external contacts—the substance of which the granting of the grand prix was kept which raises very serious questions about secret for so many months before the tender whether or not it was a clean process in arrangements were announced. regard to the granting of this licence—not Quite clearly the question arises as to kept? whether or not there was insider trading. This It seems to me that there is a very uniquely inquiry will look at the adequacy of the Victorian view operating at the moment on Commonwealth’s corporations and security what is arms length when it comes to the law in relation to this matter. Lloyd Williams, Kennett government’s administration of a fellow principal of Crown and Director of casino licences. You have to contrast that Hudson Conway, has barely managed to avoid quite sharply with, for instance, the treatment prosecution as a property developer and has of John Darcy Duggan. Do senators recall provided self-confessed benefits to a union John Darcy Duggan, a member of that board? official in breach of the Crimes Act. His The standard of probity demanded from the recorded business dealings demonstrate casino was particularly high when it came to absolute contempt for proper process. The Chief Justice Darcy Duggan. validity of the damaging allegations concern- ing Hudson Conway are still to be determined He was sacked as a member of the gaming by the legal system. These allegations in- commission and control authority because he clude— took a free 20-minute flight in the United States, which was provided by a Nevada Senator Alston—Civil action, you are poker machine manufacturing company of talking about? dubious record. It is intriguing that he was Senator CARR—They involve criminal removed from the gaming authority but not actions, as you well know, Senator Alston. the parole board. I wonder whether these There is the issue of whether or not benefits allegations would have surfaced or whether were derived by a former chief executive of these events alluded to would have occurred Coles Myer, arising from the company’s lease if there was a man of his integrity about. of headquarters from Hudson Conway. There There is a real issue about the way in which is also the issue of the attempted theft by Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 487 deception by Gleem Pty Ltd, a subsidiary of Senator CARR—That is a very interesting Hudson Conway, against the Gas and Fuel point, Senator Alston: who by? It demon- Corporation of Victoria. There is the question strates that right from the beginning the of whether or not the Victorian Premier processes were the subject of quite serious himself derived a benefit from Hudson Con- doubt. Crown Casino knew that they had to way through the major renovations to his increase their bid. How did they know that? private residence during 1994-95. How did Crown Casino know that they had to change their bid? How did Crown Casino This Senate inquiry will provide witnesses know how much they had to change their bid with immunity from prosecution under the by? various stringent and oppressive provisions of the Victorian Casino and Gaming Act. It will The Kennett government has always main- enable those individuals with the knowledge tained that nobody had access to the bids of and concerns about the bidding process to apart from the Casino Control Authority. publicly substantiate their claims. It will Terry McCrann and Stephen Mayne of the attack the climate of fear, jingoistic vilifica- Herald-Sun have both reported that a Treasury tion and intimidation within Victoria which minute prepared for the Treasurer at, as I has been imposed by the Kennett government. understand it, the Treasurer’s request dis- It will uphold the right of the media to under- closed the bids— take legitimate investigations of government Senator Alston—You understand it. actions, which one would expect from any Senator CARR—That is what it says, independent media operating within the public Senator Alston—and that the details of the interest. bids have been forwarded to Treasury officials This latter role of the media has been by the Casino Control Authority. Sally Neigh- crucial to uncovering the many allegations bour of Four Corners and more recently surrounding Crown Casino. In October 1994, Russell Skelton of the Age have reported that the SBC Dominguez Barry report was re- they have identified four independent sources leased. SBC Dominguez Barry were the who claim that details of the bids were for- financial advisers to the Casino Control warded to the Casino Subcommittee of Cabi- Authority. They prepared two reports, one in net, which comprised Mr Kennett, Mr Stock- June 1993 and one in September 1993. The dale, Mr Birrell, Mr McClellan, Mr Storcy reports disclosed that the key feature of the and Mr McNamara. Not all of those are bids was that the initial bids were received by ministers. Crown Casino, Jupiters and ITT Sheraton in I am sure an inquiry such as this would be June 1993. Jupiters placed a low bid and able to ask them whether or not they can dropped out. Crown Casino’s bid was sub- assist in that respect. The inquiry will also stantially less than ITT Sheraton’s initial bid. allow for the examination of the adequacies In August 1994, according to the SBC of the Commonwealth legislation in relation Dominguez Barry report, ITT Sheraton mar- to casino licensing, particularly the effective- ginally lowered their bid. Crown Casino ness of the Corporations Law and the need for increased their bid substantially to match the uniform legislation on casino licensing. It will ITT Sheraton bid so that it could be said there also allow for an assessment of the adequacies was no significant or substantial difference of the Financial Transactions Act in regard to between the two bids. transactions in casinos. Jim Gallagher, who has been the spokes- An inquiry will also provide an opportunity person for ITT Sheraton, has always main- for an assessment of whether the granting of tained that during the bidding process Crown casino licences has affected Australia’s inter- Casino obtained an unfair advantage. ITT national reputation. It will also provide, very Sheraton was led to believe that they would importantly, the opportunity for an assessment be successful— of whether a full judicial inquiry, a royal commission or another inquiry is needed into Senator Alston—Who by? the Crown Casino with particular reference to 488 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 the tendering process and whether Australia’s her or not what occurred in Victoria was interests have been protected, particularly in above board and was clean. We can then tell regard to the record and reputation of tender- the world that the processes in Australia are ers. in fact proper. We can say that you can get a There is a climate of fear and intimidation fair go when you go for a contract. The in Melbourne directed at those who have alternative is to allow these rumours and these criticised the Victorian government. Why allegations and facts to continue to go unas- shouldn’t there be, given the oppressive sessed. That is totally inappropriate if we are prohibitions of the Casino Control Act and of trying to get to the bottom of these matters. course given the long record of this govern- I have every confidence that this important ment in Victoria in terms of the way in which inquiry will legitimately revolve around what it has dismissed critics and removed the remains a fundamental issue of government normal protections of a democratic society probity in this country. that people are able to put forward views and Senator Alston—Will you be on it? have protection by the law? Senator CARR—Senator Alston has asked What we have seen in Victoria is that whether I will be on it. The answer is no. I judges have been sacked. We have seen the will not behave like you did in the way you head of the Children’s Court removed. We stalked this country seeking to dig and to have seen the removal of the DPP. We have impugn the reputations of people in this seen the removal of the Commissioner of country. What I will do is put a position and Equal Opportunity. We have seen numerous a case that there ought to be an inquiry. I will changes to the Victorian constitution which allow others to properly assess the validity of close off the normal provisions of legal these claims and allow this Senate ultimately appeal. We have seen that in regard to school to come to a position in terms of the merits closures, for instance. Appeals to the Supreme of the allegations that have been made. Court of Victoria are being blocked. We have seen legal prohibitions placed on public Senator Alston, I will not degenerate the servants, school teachers and others from way you did when you sought to use inquiries publicly drawing attention to inadequacies in to harangue and attack the civil liberties of government policy. Australians. I will not allow that to occur, This would be absolutely intolerable in any though I will say to you, Senator, that there normal society, but in Victoria there is a is a legitimate role for the Senate in these simple rule: the government is above the law. issues. It is proper that these allegations be We have seen with KNF Advertising that investigated thoroughly and that there be a when they are caught out they change the proper and, as much as possible, open—the law. The Victorian government are in con- emphasis being on open—process of disclos- tempt of the Victorian people and the normal ure. I ask the Senate to support this proposi- democratic processes. As far as I am con- tion. cerned, the Australian parliament has a very Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Minister for real and legitimate interest in the very serious Communications and the Arts) (10.23 a.m.)— allegations that have been raised concerning If ever there was a humiliation, we have just the Crown Casino. It has a duty to allow had it. The one person who has been driving citizens to put their views, to assess their all this, from the very beginning, driven by all claims and to clear the air on the ever- of those outdated and outmoded concepts of lengthening shadow of allegations surrounding bile and vitriol and hatred of the ruling Crown Casino. classes, the plutocrats and anyone who makes I believe that if people have nothing to hide an honest quid, has been out there for they will come forward. They will tell the weeks—and indeed months—running a camp- truth. They will put on the public record their aign on this issue. This is a campaign which views and they will allow their claims to be has not been supported by his own side of assessed. In that way we can determine whet- politics. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 489

It is quite extraordinary and unfortunate that weeks ago, when the Victorian public had Senator Spindler has allowed himself to be absolutely every opportunity to consider all put up as the bunny on this, because he is the that you and your allies in the ABC and the one moving the motion, when clearly the Age newspaper have said. I do not think there agenda has been driven by the likes of the is much doubt why the Age newspaper has mad left of the Labor Party. The only defence been declining in sales in recent years. I can think of is that Senator Spindler will be Senator Carr—It has been going up. safely retired from politics by the time that this grubby little exercise comes to a conclu- Senator ALSTON—They might have sion late this year. Senator Spindler will be turned the corner a bit recently because they able to wash his hands and say that he did not have started to write editorials like ‘Mr ultimately have a say in the report and he was Brumby ought to realise that one of the not responsible for the farce that it will reasons he lost the last election was because inevitably become. he concentrated on peripheral issues’. We all know, from what we read in the Senator Robert Ray—You know why the papers, who is going to be on this inquiry. It Age circulation has gone up. It is because seems to me that the wiser heads have tried Collingwood has won four out of six games, to make the most of a very bad hand that had that is why. been dealt to them by Senator Carr. What Senator ALSTON—For those who read the they have judged is that they now have no back page first, I agree entirely. But even then choice but to go ahead with it because of all I would prefer them to revert to the old style the fuss that he has made. But they have of having the teams on the back page and not made it absolutely crystal clear that they a separate supplement. I am sure they can do regard him as a total loose cannon and they even better. The politics of it are quite inter- are not prepared to have him sabotaging any esting because they then said that Brumby possible gain that they might otherwise be ought to realise that he had been distracted by able to achieve. We have just had examples peripheral issues, and in brackets you could in spades of the sorts of reasons why Senator read ‘distracted by the likes of Senator Carr’. Carr would be unfit to be involved in any such inquiry. It is very clear indeed what the motivation of the Labor Party is for this, Senator The use of selective language and judgment Spindler. I am just sorry that you have not is just beyond belief. You talk, for example, been exposed to it earlier than now. What about judges being sacked in Victoria and cite possible earthly justification there was for the cases of the heads of the Children’s Court bringing up the politics of envy in such a and the DPP, both of whom resigned, but do blatant way, by referring to Ron Walker as not at the same time acknowledge that the reputedly having a worth of about $125 chief magistrate was effectively hounded from million, is absolutely irrelevant to any sort of office by your ilk. Clearly, if you are going inquiry of this nature. The reason that it was to regard the first two as having been sacked, dredged up is that Senator Carr cannot help you would have to regard the chief magistrate himself. What he has done—and I am sure as being sacked at the same time. But of Senator Ray is absolutely furious at this—is course you do not. You just have this wonder- expose the real agenda of the Labor Party. ful vision of the world that fits into your You see, the fact is that, right from the outset, outdated socialist model. the senior people who have been elected to You say the Victorian government was lead your side of politics have had enormous above the law and in contempt of the people reservations about this whole exercise. and normal democratic process. Khrushchev I will just tell you what Mr Beazley has and Co. would be absolutely proud of you. said on the subject. He said, ‘I do think there There is what you define as democratic is a case for an inquiry. There is a case for an processes. Well, you could not have had a inquiry run in the state of Victoria.’ In other more democratic result than only a matter of words, quite clearly Kim Beazley has not 490 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 been in favour of the Senate conducting this not help himself, because what he is doing is sort of witch-hunt, fishing trip, publicity stunt, putting it on the public record that that is whatever you like to call it. When asked your real agenda. And indeed it is. about ambiguity in his remarks in the Age, your favourite newspaper—I presume it is the The only reason you have come on board only rag you read—on 18 April, he said that in recent days is that you have finally been he was in holding pattern. In other words, he persuaded that this might be an opportunity to still was not in favour of an inquiry. As get at John Howard through Ron Walker. If recently as last Friday, he simply said at a you try to do this, you will be vilified by the doorstop, ‘Of course, the desirable course of public. You will be objected to in the strong- action would be for Mr Kennett to do what est possible terms by our members on the state and federal governments have done over committee, because it simply is not within the the last few years when matters of serious terms of reference and there is no possible doubt of this nature occurred: put on judicial justification for exploring anything to do with inquiries and royal commissions themselves.’ the Liberal Party. It has nothing to do— Now what did Senator Ray have to say on the Senator Robert Ray—Now we know what subject? On election night he said, ‘I have not you are worried about. really given it full and final thought yet.’ Senator ALSTON—I will tell you what Senator Robert Ray—I have now. you ought to be more worried about: you Senator ALSTON—I know you have and ought to be more worried about a House of I will come to why in a minute. He said, ‘I Representatives inquiry into the Common- have made no public comment on it at all, wealth Bank’s funding of the piggery. because my view is that the Senate should Senator Robert Ray—I don’t care at all essentially stick to federal issues. The Kennett about that. government refuses to take up those options. We will keep an open mind on it.’ Why Senator ALSTON—We might see in due therefore do we find the likes of Senator Ray course whether you have some reasons for being involved in such an inquiry? It is concern. I am sure Senator Carr probably has simply because those opposite have been the wrong lawyers advising him on this persuaded that this does represent an oppor- matter, but if he proposed this or went along tunity to get into people like Ron Walker. with it willingly then it is something that we This is a ‘get Walker’ exercise. This is an ought to be very grateful for. I suspect it was opportunity, as Senator Carr has made crystal imposed upon him by Senator Spindler and clear. perhaps Senator Chamarette. I would think that, if you had been in this It is very interesting that one of the terms place for a couple of years, you would know of reference is whether the granting of any that there are times when you do not actually licence to any casino within Australia has reveal everything that you might have in affected Australia’s overseas reputation. That mind. You might want to achieve a political is the sort of cloak of respectability that some objective, but you do not telegraph your have tried to put on this to mask the obvious punches. Yet what we found was Senator Carr fact that it has nothing to do with the feds at making it clear that he thought a very big all. This is simply an inquiry into a state issue in all of this was some allegation about issue. Indeed, by calling it—as you do—the Ron Walker having obtained favourable Victorian casino inquiry select committee, you financing from the National Bank in relation have made it crystal clear that this is about to the funding of the Liberal Party. Why did the politics of Victoria. Nonetheless you have he mention it? In the context of speaking in wittingly or otherwise provided the basis and support of a motion to establish an inquiry I think the obligation for this committee to into the Victorian casino, why on earth did inquire into the granting of all casino licences this clown mention Ron Walker and the in recent years in order to see whether Aust- Liberal Party? It was simply because he could ralia’s overseas reputation has been affected. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 491

If you want this to be a fair dinkum inquiry, circumstances in which the Christmas Island if you want to satisfy genuine public concerns licence was granted. about whether the granting of any licence has I am indebted to you for casting it in such affected Australia’s international reputation, wide terms. That is probably why Senator I will tell you who should be the first witness Robert Ray accepted the inevitability of this at this inquiry—Kim Beazley. Kim Beazley’s committee having to sit until December 1996, mate Brian Burke was the one who did the because it certainly would not be able to fill deals with Dallas Dempster about the out the time by just concentrating on Victoria. Burswood Casino. There are a lot of un- As we know, there is virtually nothing on the answered questions there. I think you would public record that would warrant this sort of find that Mr Beazley would be very reluctant inquiry. indeed to come along and answer some of the questions that might be put to him. The basis of setting up a Senate select committee and committing taxpayers’ funds Senator Cook—That is rubbish and you to such an exercise has to be on prima facie know it. evidence—not on the likes of Senator Carr Senator ALSTON—If you would like to who spend most of their time talking to come along as his proxy, that might be a themselves in phone boxes and pouring out second best. That will be a very interesting their violent vitriol against anyone they might little exercise. regard is not subscribing to their view of the world. I must say that even those numbers are Senator Cook—It will be boring and dull. diminishing. One has to look only at the fact There is nothing there. that Senator Carr could not even make it onto Senator ALSTON—It might be boring and the frontbench. dull to you, but the trouble is that it is re- Senator Cook had to fight hard enough to quired by the terms of reference. When we plead with his colleagues to let him have yet are finished— another go. But Senator Carr’s position must Senator Cook—Do not try to shift it onto be enormously embarrassing to him. Talk us. It is you who has the pressure on. about a lack of political judgment! We can now see what Martin Ferguson and George Senator ALSTON—It is all your own Campbell are going to do to him over the work. They are your terms of reference; you next few years. Fancy missing out on a spot are putting them up. You are requiring this in the run-off for the nine positions of the committee to investigate not only Burswood Left. but also Christmas Island. What do we know about Christmas Island? We know that War- Robert, I do not know whether you are on ren Snowdon spent probably more time there the circulation list for the minutes of the SL, than he did on the mainland. What did War- but my information is that you came stone ren Snowdon do? He spent most of his time motherless last in the contest. There were nine making high-level representations to various spots. There were people like Jenny Macklin, government ministers to ensure that Indo- who has been in the parliament for one nesian interests got that licence. minute, and Lindsay Tanner has been around for only a couple of years. This bloke came I do not know whether Mr Beazley has last, so I am informed. been to Christmas Island to have any discus- sions, but again that is a proper matter for Senator Robert Ray—So did Senator investigation by this committee. After all, Macdonald over there; he is sitting up the Indonesian interests did some very generous back. We have Senator Boswell, we have and helpful things to very senior people who Senator Tambling and Senator Campbell—a have now scurried out of the parliament. But whole range of them got relegated. it is clearly a matter that must affect Aus- Senator ALSTON—You can have all those tralia’s international reputation. So this com- very interesting excursions and diversions, but mittee is obligation bound to investigate the the trouble is, Robert, they are not relevant to 492 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 this debate. What is relevant to this debate is who set up the casino control act. You set up who is driving it? The bloke who is driving the Casino Control Authority; you appointed it is totally discredited, but unfortunately he the members of it and, therefore, you are has led you so far up the garden path that you bound by the processes that they follow. are now locked in. That is the tragedy, in a Senator Carr—They didn’t follow the political sense, because this will bite you and processes, though, did they? That is the point. this will burn you. You will find that this sort of witch-hunt and fishing expedition will turn Senator ALSTON—Didn’t they? You have up about as much as is on the public record been obsessed with this for years. I suppose at the present time. that you have been the great architect, the mastermind, behind those four FOI applica- It is very interesting again that Senator Carr tions to the AAT. What do you do? You go should pose some of these so-called questions along and say, ‘There’s public interest in for answering. The fact is of course that this.’ In other words, ‘We’ve stirred it; we’ve Lloyd Williams was the one who handled the been out there parading our prejudices; we’ve bidding process. been raising so-called allegations. Therefore, Senator Robert Ray—Who told you that? there is public concern and, therefore, we Senator ALSTON—That is on the public ought to be able to obtain possession of the record; he said so himself. Ron Walker is a documents on the basis of public interest.’ non-executive director of Crown Casino. As the AAT said on no less than four There is no prima facie evidence to implicate separate occasions, there is simply no justifi- Ron Walker any more than any other of the cation for that material being made available. non-executive directors of Crown Casino. So It stated: are you going to call John Utz, Sir Rod The documents do not disclose any material which Carnegie, John Calvert-Jones? No. The reason would in any way throw light on the litany of you are not is that they are not what you allegations referred to by the applicant. In the Tribunal’s opinion, release of the material will not regard as bagmen for the Liberal Party. The reveal any inappropriate behaviour or wrongdoing bloke you want to get at is Ron Walker. You by the Authority. The matters that allegedly led to are going to get at him by hook or by crook, the conclusion that there are issues of such great under the cloak of a casino inquiry. There is public concern or disquiet are simply allegations nothing on the public record that would not based on facts proved to the tribunal. warrant this sort of an inquiry. You know as There are heaps of authority for that proposi- well as I do— tion from the highest courts in the land—that Senator Carr—What about his meeting the mere fact that you want to get out there with Jeff Kennett? and make scurrilous allegations is no basis for Senator ALSTON—His meeting with Jeff saying that there is a genuine public interest Kennett? I see. I would be surprised if he has in an issue. The courts, I have no doubt, will not had many meetings with Jeff Kennett. I continue to uphold that very vital distinction. think you would have to do a lot better than You have tried time and again to dredge up to say, ‘We’ve got evidence that he had a documents that you think might help your meeting with Jeff Kennett.’ That really is a case, and they simply have not got you killer punch! anywhere. The fact is—and, again, this is on The fact is that all those aspersions that the public record—that there was a consulta- were dredged up on Four Corners were very tive bidding process in which the authority much ancient history. They were matters that negotiated with the individual bidders. The were dealt with exhaustively by the authority bidding process did allow for bids to be which your crowd set up—Joan Kirner; adjusted in the last fortnight in order to Xavier Connor had to be brought back to accommodate last minute— reverse his original view in order to come out Senator Robert Ray—It is quite proper. with a recommendation in favour of a casino. Senator ALSTON—Indeed, but with the You set all the terms on which these sorts of way this bloke carries on, what he says is— inquiries ought to proceed. You were the ones and poor old Senator Spindler was saying the Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 493 same thing—‘Did you know that at the last minute, they must have had inside informa- minute Lloyd Williams went in there and he tion; that that somehow must have involved upped his bid by $80 million? He have must Ron Walker, it must have involved Jeff have known’— Kennett. Senator Robert Ray—On what basis There is not a skerrick of evidence to though? suggest that. There is no evidence to suggest Senator ALSTON—You do not have to be that the casino authority members were too smart around the traps to know that IT&T disclosing information they should not have were boasting that they had very deep pock- been disclosing. There were requirements on ets, they could outspend any of the locals, the record for certain information to be they were heavy hitters from overseas, and provided to the government and— that they had every bit of $200 million. Now, Senator Carr—Which identified the bids— there is absolutely no requirement on any A and B. bidder to disclose what their hand is any more than you are required to play open poker; you Senator ALSTON—You say that. The do not have to put your cards on the table. media has alleged that the state Treasurer was You can get out there and tell people, as given a minute from his department providing people often do, ‘Look, you know, we details of the three bids for the casino licence. couldn’t possibly afford to go beyond 150; The information did not identify the bidders— the shareholders wouldn’t think it was a great and, of course, Mr Stockdale says he does not idea.’ In other words, you could do your best recall receiving the minute. Neither the to disguise the fact that you are prepared to Victorian Casino Authority nor the govern- bid high. ment have denied that information was passed on to senior departmental officials as part of What happened on this occasion was that the licensing process. That was a necessary Crown Casino were clearly confident that the requirement to resolve questions of govern- design of their bid was light years ahead of ment policy on issues such as siting and IT&T’s. IT&T’s bid or proposal has been possible taxation structures. It was important described as—I forget what the term is— for them to be aware of the revenue implica- something like ‘a block design’. But the tions. But they were not entitled to know Crown bid was clearly, from the outset, a which bid was which, nor were they told. You much more lavish proposal involving a high- might say after the event, ‘Well, I’m a pretty rise hotel, large entertainment precinct and smart fellow, I can work out which was A open riverside plaza. Again, the terms of the and which was B.’ But the fact is— inquiry by the casino authority were that, if the bids were comparable, you would win on Senator Robert Ray—Especially when you the merits—and that is how it ought to be. So are talking to the others. all that Crown had to do in revising their bid, Senator ALSTON—I am simply saying to as they were required to do, was get them- you that this was open, aboveboard and selves into the ballpark. Then, as far as they known at all times. There was a requirement were concerned, they would win it on the for information to be provided to the govern- merits—and so it proved. ment. You will find that people—those people IT&T had had no experience in casinos up who Rob Holls has managed to make contact to that point in time. They may well have with and presumably persuaded to come along been on a fast learning curve. No doubt, as and give evidence to the inquiry—will say with most disgruntled bidders, they now want that things were perfectly in line with the to make suggestions that the process was not requirements; in other words, that they saw all that it might have been. But there is documents, they saw letters with numbers on absolutely nothing on the public record to them which, presumably, they will say, they justify those concerns. That is why Senator believed to have been passed on. I doubt that Carr is sort of scrabbling around to suggest any of them will say they passed them on, let that, because someone ups their bid at the last alone that they saw them passed to ministers 494 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 or that they have any knowledge of what went Senator Carr’s speech was very interesting. on at that level. He seems to have learnt something. I have been reading Senator Carr’s public comments As I understand it, all that they will say is with interest to see whether he would pre- what was allowed for by the processes. Let judge the matter because he used to carry on there be no misunderstanding of what this about this sort of thing. inquiry is all about. Some members of the Labor Party have very serious misgivings Senator Carr—Absolutely. I learnt from about this. The current weak Leader of the you, didn’t I? Opposition has been vacillating and equivo- Senator ALSTON—No, you learnt from cating from the outset. Senator Robert Ray, I your own experiences and excursions on that believe, does have a sense of proprietary subject, and you failed absolutely. Neverthe- about these issues and understands the demar- less, you seem to be wanting to steer clear of cation between federal and state. But both Mr that. The only possible reason for doing that Beazley and Senator Ray have been finally was because you desperately wanted to be on dragged on board because of the political board. Why are you not on board? Because ineptitude of someone whom they ultimately they will not have you! Your own side will would not even allow to be on the inquiry not wear you. They regard you as a total itself. They now think that perhaps there political liability. They know that there is no might be a window of opportunity in which way in which you could be controlled. You to discredit Mr Howard through Ron Walker. would be in there, letting it all pour out. You would not be worrying about the facts. You It is a very sad day for Australian politics would not be worrying about the evidence. because those opposite are saying that suc- You would be simply airing your political cessful business people should not be in- prejudices and beating witnesses over the volved in politics, should not even belong to head with them, as you did in other inquiries. political parties, and should not be prepared You would be making absolutely sure that to serve in appointed positions. They are this would boomerang back on the Labor essentially saying that political parties ought Party. to cut themselves off from the mainstream. I commend Senator Ray for his strength The Labor Party gets help from the trade from his side of the perspective in standing up union movement in spades. Talk about an to that sort of intimidatory political approach. unrepresentative outfit! If you take out the I hope that, when it is established, this com- number of trade union officials, if you take mittee will take all those terms of reference out the former party secretaries, and if you very seriously and will recognise that it has take out teachers—and I suspect Senator Carr an obligation to not only pursue other casino probably fits into all three categories—you inquiries, but not to stray into extraneous are left with virtually no-one with experience issues. If it does, I can assure those opposite of the real world. You do not have any that we will bringing the house down. Those compunction about expecting the trade union extraneous matters are totally irrelevant and movement to hand over hundreds of thou- utterly unrelated. The fact that Senator Carr sands of dollars to the Labor Party at election has let the cat out of the bag today in no time, yet you are prepared to vilify any uncertain terms will be no justification at all individual whom you regard as wealthy. You for the committee exceeding its brief. hate the thought of people having earned Senator Spindler knows the principles of money in the real world; I presume you ultra vires. I hope that he will be a moderat- would prefer that they were on the public ing influence in that regard. I hope that he purse—on the drip feed. You are prepared to will not allow the committee to use this as an go to any lengths to discredit serving politi- excuse to try and find out how the Liberal cians by getting at people who are out there Party managed to stay afloat during the in the community. This will be exposed for 1980s—and all the other hatreds that Senator what it is. Carr would like to have explored. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 495

Senator Carr—That is a good idea. laundering. Therefore the regulatory approach Senator ALSTON—You think that is a must be beyond reproach, especially as the good idea? Melbourne casino is the biggest casino in Australia. The development of such a facility Senator Carr—You raised the issue. has implications for our international reputa- Senator ALSTON—You have made very tion as a place to do business. The plethora of clear today what you believe the committee’s unanswered questions surrounding the Mel- agenda ought to be. I am putting you on bourne casino has the potential to do us notice that Mr Beazley should come along international damage and therefore should be and explain his role in the Christmas Island of concern to this parliament. and Burswood inquiries. You should not be I know that the Premier of Victoria has permitted to go down the path that you want labelled the proposal to have a select commit- to go down. This will be the ultimate waste tee as a witch-hunt, as a kangaroo court, and of taxpayers’ funds. There is nothing on the as McCarthyist. We have had a lot of Senate public record that provides any justification inquiries over the years on a lot of esoteric for what is essentially an abuse of the federal subjects, all of which Premier Kennett has system. Senator Ray knows that in his heart greeted with a mute response. We have heard of hearts. I am sure he will go through the Mr Kennett say, ‘No way will any Victorian motions shortly and tell us how he has now minister or public servant give evidence had a conversion and he has suddenly realised before a Senate committee.’ It was just a that there are significant federal issues in- couple of years ago where an unctuous and volved. He has been around for a long time. pompous Premier Kennett demanded in the He is simply making the best of a very bad press that ex-Premier Kirner and ex-Treasurer hand that has been dealt to him by someone Sheehan front before a Senate committee. He whom he was not prepared to have on the boasted on that occasion that his Treasurer, committee. Mr Stockdale, had appeared before a Senate I think the politics of this action will be- committee. He went on to say, ‘If there is a come very clear as time goes by. I hope that properly constituted committee, then members the committee will be able to report back a lot of the Victorian parliament should be pre- earlier than December because I can assure pared to attend.’ Oh, what a difference a year those opposite that, well before then, they will or two makes! Now, having a Senate inquiry find that this inquiry is much more of an that impinges on some Victorian matters is embarrassment to the Labor Party than it is to the end of the world. A year or two ago it those whom you think you are going to bring was to be greeted with absolute delight. down as a result of it. Of course, all this is avoidable. All the pitfalls that Senator Alston has pointed to, all Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (10.50 his objections, are totally avoidable. This a.m.)—I am surprised that Senator Alston, if Senate committee can be rejected today or the he thinks this inquiry is going to be a major inquiry can be aborted at any time through embarrassment to us, would want to foreclose one simple act, and that simple act is for the and not have the inquiry not got through until Premier of Victoria to call an independent December. From listening to his rather pathet- judicial inquiry or a royal commission into ic defence on this particular matter, I can only the circumstances which this inquiry before reflect on his transition from the law to the Senate is about. That is the action we politics as the law’s gain and the Senate’s would prefer. Senator Alston has been able to loss. get away, or hopes to get away, today with There is one point that Senator Alston misquoting the leader of the Labor Party, Mr makes and that is this: there must be some Beazley. That has been his central point from federal connotation before there is a Senate the opening of this debate right up till today. inquiry. Of course, that is absolutely true. It is my contention that it would be preferable Casinos have a great potential to attract to have a Victorian initiated inquiry rather organised crime and to be used for money than a Senate inquiry. 496 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

It is the philosophy of the Victorian govern- for the casino licence, and the government ment never to have an inquiry. There was no conducted an evaluative run-off. That is a inquiry into the fracas between Bernard common practice in awarding tenders of this Bongiorno and Mrs Wade, the Attorney- nature. I take no objection at all to that General; no inquiry into KNF; no inquiry into process. Final bids, following the preparation Needham Advertising; no inquiry into police by the authority of a supplementary brief, shootings. That is the philosophy of the were lodged on 30 August 1993. On 5 Sep- Kennett government. It may be a good, tember 1993, the Victorian Casino Control pragmatic approach because, if you do not Authority informed the government that hold an inquiry, you cannot get any nasty Crown was a preferred applicant for the results. But it is not one we in the federal Melbourne casino licence. parliament can endorse when our international At some stage, between 30 April and 30 reputation is at stake. Clearly, Mr Kennett has August, Crown increased its offer to the tune not even read the terms of inquiry because the of approximately $92 million. The core actual inquiry is as to whether an inquiry is question is : how did it know to increase its necessary. Read the terms of reference, those bid by $92 million to match the other one? on the other side and Mr Kennett, because we How did it know the exact figure? Apparent- do not seek to substitute ourselves for a royal ly, they did not even have the cheek to go $3 commission or an independent judicial in- million or $4 million over. They were so quiry. We are simply investigating whether mean, they matched it absolutely. Did they one is required and whether one is necessary. know that ITT Sheraton had reduced their bid The great joke of all is the Premier of somewhat? Of course, we have the assurances Victoria getting up and saying, ‘Look at the from the Premier that: provisions. There can be in camera hearings.’ The Victorian Casino Control Authority is doing an Doesn’t he realise that, 15 or 20 select com- excellent job, independently and is not briefing mittees you have moved to establish in the members of the parliament or relevant ministers on last five years have all had provision for in anything other than the issues that have already camera hearings? Doesn’t he realise that? been made public. Doesn’t he acknowledge that section 158 of And the Treasurer, Mr Stockdale, said: his own casino act makes it a criminal offence I am not aware of the proposals made by the for people to divulge material? Talk about a tenderers, nor would it be appropriate for me to be joke: objecting to in camera evidence! There aware of them. has been a lot of speculation, so far, as to Two categorical statements: one from the who would give evidence. There has been no Premier; one from the Treasurer. decision made whatsoever on calling anyone. That is up to the committee to do. The Premi- The Treasurer did not tell us that he had er of Victoria and Senator Alston say, received a minute from Mr David Shand on ‘There’s nothing to investigate.’ this matter. The minute was directed to the Let us have a look at the facts; let us have attention of the Treasurer. It was headed a look at the process. On 1 November 1991, ‘Casino Revenue’ and began: the former Labor state government requested This note responds to your request for information registration of expressions of interest for the on the current projections of casino revenue. licence to operate a casino in Melbourne. The In other words, the Treasurer requested this Victorian Casino Control Authority received information, having put on the public record 23 expressions of interest. Twelve were they would have no knowledge of any of invited to lodge supplementary submissions. these issues. The minute noted at point four On 27 November 1992, Crown, ITT Sheraton that: and Jupiters were short-listed to bid for the The attached sheet sets out the preliminary summa- casino. These bids were lodged on 30 April ry of cashflows from the three casino bidders, 1993. On 15 June, the Victorian Casino which contain a total of eight different options. Control Authority decided that Crown and (This information should of course be treated in the ITT Sheraton would be the final two bidders strictest confidence.) Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 497

This is information the Treasurer was not would be willing to give evidence before a supposed to have, which he publicly denied proper inquiry to the effect that six cabinet ever having. Why did he request this informa- members, including the premier, were regular- tion? If this was going to be a clean pro- ly sent confidential information from the cess—a hands-off process—why did he in fact authority during the bidding process. ask for it? This is where the problem starts—public The other issue, of course, is Mr Stockdale denial from the premier, public denial from does not deny receiving this minute. He says the Treasurer and then information provided he cannot recall. Mr Kennett says on his that they did get that information. Therefore, behalf, two days later, that he did not get it. it is worthy of suspicion that they may have But Mr Stockdale has never denied receiving got that information for the wrong reasons, this; he just cannot recall. Well, many things having denied they ever had it, and may have go over a minister’s desk that are ‘hard to put it to the wrong purpose. recall’, but surely as Treasurer you would The question is: did any of those with the recall whether you saw a sensitive document information relating to the content of the bids on the potential revenues of a casino when supply that information to Crown Casino? you are trying to construct a budget. That is Remember, the second bid by Crown Casino one thing you would recall. You might not accurately jumps up by $92 million. How did recall some other esoteric subject but you they know what to jump up by? It can only would recall that. be answered in terms of the very intimate It is also interesting that the document relationship between the directors of Crown released under freedom of information is a Casino, and especially the directors of Hudson three-page document. The first two pages are Conway, and the Victorian Liberal establish- released. It is claimed that the third page is ment. There is a network of connections commercial-in-confidence. I have no doubt it which raises the suspicion they may have is, but why not release that third page with been tipped off. If they were tipped off—I say that part blacked out? At least we would ‘if’ because we do not know—this is direct know whether the minute was ever signed off, and utter corruption that would rot the core of or sighted, by Mr Stockdale. Of course, it is any state government in this country. not produced under the excuse and veil of Crown Casino knew information that ITT- commercial-in-confidence, which is under- Sheraton could never know, through its standable, but they could have blacked out directors. Crown Casino knew the grand prix that section. So we have not been given the was coming to Melbourne. The other consor- opportunity so far to know whether Mr tium in the bid was never told that. Crown Stockdale signed off that minute. Casino, through Hudson Conway and Ron Walker, knew that the new exhibition centre On 18 March 1996, Four Corners alleged was going to be at Southbank. This is the one that information contained in the bids lodged that is double the size of the MCG. All of this with the VCCA was provided to members of brings business to their area. They knew cabinet. On 21 March, the Age revealed that, about this. The other poor mob, not being on according to staff of the VCCA, security the committee for Melbourne, or not being on procedures were not enforced. In response, Mr the major projects committee, had no know- Stockdale stated: ledge of this. That information could well I do not recall ever receiving an envelope direct have been used by Crown Casino. from the casino authority. I might have done, but I don’t recall that. On 27 January 1994, Crown sent details of a proposal to expand the size of the perma- A second case of lapsed memory—he does nent casino to the department of planning, not recall getting these envelopes from the including a proposal to increase the size of casino authority. Then, on 29 March, the Age the hotel from 360 to 1,000 rooms. The revealed that four staff members of the VCCA proposal also increased the amount of gaming 498 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 tables, the amount of machines and all these Another issue apart from the tendering things. In other words, they have won the bid process goes to the question of whether and, lo and behold, down the track, they Hudson Conway and their partners are good apply to change the circumstances of what and proper people. Before I come to that, let they are entitled to have. us go back to one other aspect about the tendering process. The question arises that What is the reaction? The casino authority you have a consortium consisting of Hudson initially says, ‘Oops, I’m not sure we can do Conway and others. The TAB was part of that that.’ Suddenly, the Victorian government consortium. Why did it pull out? It has never gets involved. They welcome the idea—an been explained to us why the TAB pulled out extra few storeys, a lot more gaming tables at of the consortium, all of which would have a discounted rate that was not competitive been publicly owned and would have returned with what exists in New South Wales and some of the profits to the people of Victoria. Queensland. ‘Let’s get into this like a rat up Why did they pull out? Did Mr Lloyd Wil- a drainpipe.’ In they go. They have a consul- liams, a director of Hudson Conway and tative process and suddenly, lo and behold, Vice-Chairman of the TAB, have any influ- the new licence grants them more gaming ence on that? I understand he was not at the tables, more hotel rooms, more picture thea- meeting that determined the TAB’s pull-out. tres, more restaurants and everything else. But I have never heard a proper explanation How much has the cosy relationship between from him as to whether he talked to his Lloyd Williams, Ron Walker and Jeff Kennett colleagues on the TAB board, including the contributed to this particular style of govern- then chairman, Mr Peter Scanlon, who has ment? These are questions that need to be had to step aside, about these particular answered. issues. Other activities were mentioned by Senator Another curious thing is the role played by Carr and objected to by Senator Alston. He Federal Hotels in this. Federal Hotels were cannot see the link. Yes, Mr Ron Walker did involved because they are the only ones in the go personal guarantor for the federal Liberal consortia to have hotel management skills, Party for an overdraft of $10.6 million. There and they pulled out. They also had a fairly is nothing wrong with that, nothing at all— good track record in terms of probity in unless he was being, in other areas, paid back, running casinos in Tasmania. Yet they also unless he was being given assistance else- disappeared and Consolidated Press came in. where. Then you have problems of probity. These are difficult questions that need to be Then you have problems of Victoria Inc. answered in all this. coming to bear on these matters. I do not care that he raised $45 million for the Liberal I move to the second major emphasis of my Party in the last decade. I am damned if I speech, and that is as to whether Hudson know what he did with it. I am not concerned Conway is a reputable company within the that he has gone personal guarantor for the meaning of the casino act to be involved in federal Liberal Party. I am concerned, how- this particular casino. One of the first very ever, that, as he is on the major projects curious things about it is that it has been committee in Melbourne and a director of alleged that on 20 May 1993 the state govern- Hudson Conway, a key shareholder in Crown ment instructed the Gas and Fuel Corporation Casino, he may have been tipped off or his to renege on its contract with Gleem—Gleem colleagues may have been tipped off by that is a subsidiary of Hudson Conway—for the cosy circle of people as to what the other bid construction of its new office building up in was, and been able to take a massive advan- the old Commonwealth site of Spring Street. tage in a project that has now become a The rescission of this contract has given rise licence to print money, a project that is to civil action by Gleem against the SECV. massively profitable and has already made But it basically freed up the capital resources paper profits at least for all those owners of Hudson Conway to increase its bid for the involved in that casino. casino licence. So here you have one arm of Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 499 government directing Hudson Conway, or alleged that a Hudson Conway officer made Gleem, not to proceed with a building—and an unwarranted demand with menaces in they were also able to get compensation for contravention of section 87 of the Crimes Act. that—which released capital so they could bid This officer worked as the project officer into the casino thing—very curious indeed. I ‘general manager construction’ for Crown want to know if this was the intent of that Casino. The Victorian police and the Victori- instruction by the Victorian government. an Casino and Gaming Authority are investi- There are also some concerns in terms of gating the potential criminal offences arising the repute of this company. According to from the lodging of these documents. section 9 of the Casino Control Act Victoria The third very curious thing about this is 1991, the VCCA must not grant an applica- the interaction of two small companies, that tion for a casino licence unless it is satisfied is, Coulson and Spaces Pty Ltd. Coulson that each applicant and associate of an appli- Constructions Pty Ltd is a small company that cant is of good repute, having regard to char- specialises in commercial fitouts. How is it acter, honesty and integrity. In 1972 Mr that this company, which performed work at Lloyd Williams built two blocks of flats in both the temporary and permanent Crown Paisley Street, South Yarra without a building Casino sites, also carried out domestic fitouts licence or planning permit and was required and renovation works for the partner of by the Supreme Court to pull down one of Graham Holdsworth, the manager of design those blocks. In 1981 at the Winneke royal of the Crown Casino—and we would like to commission into the BLF Lloyd Williams know: was the value of this benefit part of his gave evidence that he had provided benefits salary and, if so, was it fully disclosed to the to Mr Norman Gallagher from Lloyd Will- board?—the home of the Premier of Victoria iam’s company Dominion Properties Ltd, in Surrey Hills, Mr Ron Walker’s home at which was in breach of section 175 of the Toorak, who is a director of Crown Casino Crimes Act. I am wondering to what extent and Federal Treasurer of the Liberal Party, did the Victorian Casino Control Authority and Mr Andrew Peacock’s home in Rich- take into record what was basically a criminal mond? act then. I am also wondering whether the The real question here is not that these licensees provided a full and proper range of companies should be doing work for these information to the casino authority about people, although it is rather remarkable that those matters. such a small company should have a coinci- But more importantly, on 25 September dence of clients unless those clients talk to 1995 the state government lodged a document each other—which again is explainable and in the Victorian Supreme Court alleging that fair. The real question is that, if they are Gleem Pty Ltd—that is, a wholly owned doing work at the behest of Crown Casino, at subsidiary, I understand, of Hudson Con- the behest of Hudson Conway, for these way—obtained a financial advantage by individuals, are they doing it at full tote odds? deception in contravention of sections 321M That is the critical question. The $300,000 and 82 of the Crimes Act and also that they renovations done out at the premier’s home, gave false documents attempting to defraud or if he paid $300,000 in full for them, I would deceive the SECV in contravention of section ask no question about that. But did he get a 178 of the Crimes Act. The shareholders of discount—it is a wonderful word, ‘dis- Gleem Pty Ltd were, at all relevant times, Mr count’—on the work? And did the directors Ron Walker and Mr Lloyd Williams. Does and did the former Leader of the Opposition the Victorian Casino Control Authority get a discount? continue to be satisfied that Lloyd Williams We have heard a bit about discounts in and Ron Walker are persons of good repute recent days. Mr Alistair Drysdale, special within the meaning of the act? adviser to the premier and then a few days In the information lodged with the Supreme later special adviser on gaming matters, got Court by the state government it is also a big discount on his house at the ‘Domain 500 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Kremlin’ up in St Kilda Road. Mr Reith got victory. He is going to crush Four Corners, a big discount—nothing to do with the casino; he is going to humiliate the Age, he is going I make no connection there at all. Hudson to knock over Terry McCrann. He is in for Conway are good at giving discounts. With the biggest win in history if there is no their use of Coulson’s in all these jobs, who evidence to be produced. got discounts? So why not have an inquiry, himself? Why Senator Carr—Norman Gallagher went to not have a royal commission? If you do not jail. like royal commissions—and I don’t because Senator ROBERT RAY—I am glad my of their habit of taking hearsay evidence and colleague from Victoria has reminded me. For because of their cost—appoint a QC and have these very discounts at the Taj Mahal on an independent, judicial inquiry. For heaven’s McLachlan’s Beach, Mr Norm Gallagher went sake, do not leave it to the Senate to have to to jail, and quite properly so. So these are investigate this. But if no-one else will do it, where the serious connections come in. we must look at these issues to take some responsibility for the protection of our inter- We also have the question of Spaces Pty national reputation. Ltd, another very small firm that has per- formed work for the government of Victoria I will crystallise the issues. First, were the on the redesign of the premier’s offices at 1 tendering processes perverted and how did Treasury Place, including that magnificent Hudson Conway and Crown know to come in table and tablecloth and all the rest of it in and up their bid by $92 million? The only the Heath Room. They also did the Liberal potential for corruption at the political level Party headquarters at Menzies Avenue, Can- was if the politicians told them. They deny berra—of course at the recommendation of ever having the information yet there is a lot Mr Ron Walker. They also did the home of of contrary evidence on the record that they the Premier of Victoria in Surrey Hills. got such information. The second underlying There are so many interconnections here— issue is whether Hudson Conway is a fit and between Crown Casino, Hudson Conway, proper company to do business in a casino. I Gleem, Coulson’s, Spaces and the bagman for must say there have been very substantial the Liberal Party—that they cannot just be doubts raised on this issue. dismissed as absolute coincidences. Senator On a cautionary note, any Senate committee Alston said, ‘We don’t want to inquire into set up of this nature should, as much as Liberal Party fundraising,’ but the question is: possible, require rules of evidence and should why was a $100,000 donation from Hudson be conscious that the members of the commit- Conway deleted from the Liberal Party’s tee are politicians and therefore subject to returns one day before the accounts were biases—and we all are, even though it is published? denied over the years in inquiries. Therefore, We also want to know whether Mr Ron a lot of effort has to be made by whoever Walker gave a guarantee for $10.8 million to chairs this committee so that it does not the federal Liberal Party. Was he ever paid become McCarthyist and a witch-hunt. If that off by favours from the Liberal Party? These is done, Australia will be better off. I urge the are the sorts of questions that cannot be Premier of Victoria, Jeffrey Kennett, to set up dismissed by easy, slimy, barrister’s tricks an independent inquiry as soon as possible from Senator Alston. Something stinks in into these matters and relieve us of the burden Victoria. An inquiry, properly constituted and of doing so. properly gone about, will at least answer Senator MICHAEL BAUME (New South those questions. Wales) (11.18 a.m.)—This is self-evidently an For the life of me, I cannot understand why exercise in humbug and hypocrisy. Nothing Premier Kennett resists an inquiry, why he that has been said in this chamber today will not set one up. If, as his thesis is, there demonstrates any proper federal involvement is nothing wrong, he is in for a big political in this matter—nothing. The extent to which Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 501 it is an exercise in hypocrisy is evident from evident from his previous comments that he the following quotation: had no heart for this inquiry. A quotation Government Senators believe that the Senate should showing that the great bulk of members of the consider very carefully before it again asks one of Labor Party—those decent elements of it— its committees to investigate conflicts of interest. have no heart for this matter comes from Such a quasi-forensic function is not appropriate for Michelle Grattan of the Age this week. She a Senate committee and should be left to the proper said: judicial tribunals, who have the powers, trained officers and established procedures to undertake Then there was a question mark over Labor support such difficult and sensitive tasks. It is too easy for for it. Victorian ALP Senator Kim Carr pushed the Senate committees in such inquiries to be used to proposal remorselessly, strongly backing a move by unjustly damage reputations and careers. Democrat Senator Sid Spindler. But some in the Opposition were less enthusiastic; they were willing Who was the humbug who said that? It was to rattle the sabre for the state election, but would none other than the man who has led the have been happy enough to drop the idea later. charge to create this inquiry, Senator Carr. They worried about one level of government The man who says it is inappropriate for such investigating another; they wondered whether it was a committee to be set up is the very man who worth the ALP Opposition devoting its limited has done most to con the poor, innocent resources to this issue. Democrat into being the fall guy for putting I presume that means intellectual resources; this up. they certainly are limited. It goes on: Senator Spindler—We started it! But the pro-inquiry lobby prevailed. After today’s Senator MICHAEL BAUME—I withdraw vote, the Senate committee will be on a fishing my comment. Obviously you are not the poor, trip. innocent Democrat. You are involved in this There is no doubt about that. Michelle Grattan conspiracy to intervene, for crass political is exactly right. It is a fishing trip that was, in purposes, in a matter that has nothing to do effect, admitted by Senator Ray in his contri- with the federal government. bution. Senator Ray asked a lot of questions. Let me deal, first, with a couple of the He said, ‘There is a question about this; there matters that were raised seriously by a man is a question about something else.’ In con- for whom I have a great deal of respect, spiracy theories there are questions about Senator Robert Ray. While I have respect for everything. The fact is that this government Senator Ray, I must say that he was totally in will not participate in what is a fishing trip. error—and he knows it—in what he was Senator Bob Collins—Listen to who’s saying today. He said, for example, that there talking! Oink, oink Baume! is a Commonwealth role because in casinos Senator MICHAEL BAUME—I acknow- there is a capacity for money laundering. He ledge the interjection from the former alleged it goes on and I certainly would not minister raising the question of pigs. deny that. Is that a good reason for the federal government to be involved in horse racing? Senator Bob Collins—Day after day, week Horse racing is the classic money laundering after week, month after month! Little pig. event. I can remember that the former New Senator Cook—The resident muck-raker. South Wales Labor minister for corrective Senator MICHAEL BAUME—I would be services, before he spent several years in the grateful if those opposite would be quiet for cooler, always managed to have money a minute so I can respond. Senator Bob because of his ‘wins on the races’. Collins may be interested in the response, and Now, former minister Senator Ray is saying I want to draw this to the opposition’s atten- there is a justification for the federal govern- tion. When I raised matters of propriety—not ment to be involved in casinos because of illegality—about the former Prime Minister, money laundering. That sort of specious Mr Keating, and his piggery, I always did so nonsense demonstrates Senator Ray’s lack of on the basis of evidence. I presented ASC real commitment. He knows that is nonsense. documents and I presented searches of proper- He has been forced into this debate. It was ty in New South Wales. I have to tell the 502 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Senate that, on these matters, not only did I good stuff in this article that I would like to provide evidence, but that evidence has been read a bit of it into the record. He said: acted on by the federal authorities. As a . . . the mother of all stunts is rattling down the result, Mr Keating’s partner has been found road from Canberra. Stand by for the amazing Kim guilty of four offences under the Corporations Carr and his all-performing Senate inquiry into the Law and his lawyer, who was also secretary Crown casino. of his family company, has been found guilty This planned inquiry has all the ingredients of a of three offences under the Corporations Law. travelling medicine show. As Victorian politicians That is exactly what I had been telling this cannot be forced to give evidence it is about as much a genuine probe into the casino tendering chamber for years—at a time, I might say, process as the IRA is a children’s charity. when your former leader was accusing me of telling whoppers. He kept telling me that I So far, the allegations about the casino would not justify an investigation by Inspector Gadget and a was wrong again—wrong, wrong, wrong. I retired sniffer dog, let alone Kim Carr, Sid Spindler was right, right, right and you know it. That and a troop of other senators. is why, of course, the Labor Party sought to All we have left is one disgruntled bidder, a gaggle smear me, and they are trying again today. of disapproving Left-wing clerics and a couple of Senator Bob Collins—Come on, oink, embittered Casino and Gaming Authority employ- oink, get on with it. ees so sure of their case that they are not prepared to be identified. Senator MICHAEL BAUME—Yes, exact- ly. You do not want me to talk about it any ...... more, do you? Having interjected in a nonsen- What it is about is an attempt by the Left of the sical way, you now do not want to hear the ALP and the Democrats to do as much political reality of the scandalous situation which was damage to the Kennett Government as possible. proved by documents that surrounded the Naturally, Senator Carr and the Democrats will put Prime Minister’s piggery. the Senate committee together so they have a majority. Just as naturally, the electorate will treat There is a lot more. For example, apparent- the committee’s findings with the sort of respect ly the former Prime Minister was at arms usually reserved for dead fish. length, but who had the former Prime Probably the most objectionable aspect of this Minister’s power of attorney for two years inquiry is its constitutional impropriety. The Crown before he evidently became a half-owner of casino has nothing to do with the Commonwealth the piggery? Mr Constantinidis. That is Parliament. It is purely a state matter and should be another matter and we will deal with that on left to us Victorians to deal with in our own way. another occasion. He then went on: Senator O’Chee—What about Graham It sets a very dangerous precedent. Richardson’s house renovations? Senator MICHAEL BAUME—Senator ...... O’Chee raises another matter. What I want to Does Jeff Kennett now appoint his own inquiry into deal with in discussing this question of any part that Kim Carr may have played in the hypocrisy is that these inquiries must not, as alleged branch-stacking in the Victorian ALP? Senator Ray said in his warning, be used The possibility of these tit-for-tat revenge inquiries improperly. This is an improper inquiry in the shows up Kim Carr and Sid Spindler for what they first place. The proposal to set it up is a are. Behind a mask of propriety, they are just politicians bent on organising a show trial for their dishonest proposal. As the Herald-Sun said political opponents. today: This is certainly what they are aiming for. Even in Most Australians know a stunt when they see one. the likely event that nothing of substance emerges This is taken from an article by Mr Greg from the inquiry, the appearance of Ron Walker Craven, who is a reader in law at Melbourne and Lloyd Williams will attract national media University and a former Victorian crown attention. counsel. He clearly states the reality of this Senator Campbell—What about Warren situation. In fact, I think there is so much Snowdon? That will attract some attention. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 503

Senator MICHAEL BAUME—I acknow- such subcommittee. Recognising the political ledge that interjection about Warren Snowdon. nature and the dishonesty of this whole Greg Craven continues: process, I suggest to those people foolish They will be cross-examined and publicly enough to support this motion that they at belittled. least fix up that element because it would be I want to stress that: ‘They will be cross- grossly improper for such a subcommittee to examined and publicly belittled.’ He further be set up. states: Senator Bob Collins—What about your Carr and Spindler know that even if they cannot committee which had two Labor members out find what they are digging for, they will have a lot of seven on it? of fun throwing the dirt around. Senator MICHAEL BAUME—I gather Senator Carr has thrown plenty of dirt around from that interjection that they have no today, unsubstantiated and under the protec- intention of doing so, despite the clear recom- tion of parliamentary privilege. All I can say mendation of the Procedure Committee. is that I commend Greg Craven for that Let us have a look at the allegations that excellent article. Senator Carr has made. He asked whether Let us look at the motion recommending there was ‘insider trading’. He said that these the appointment of a select committee. First various things involve ‘criminal actions’. of all, there is no basis for the inquiry in the These are the comments that Senator Carr has sense that it relates to any federal matters. As made under the protection of parliamentary to whether Australia’s overseas reputation has privilege. Isn’t it curious that during the been affected, the inquiry into the New South soccer inquiry he made a very strong point of Wales police force affects Australia’s reputa- saying there should not be any allegations of tion overseas. Does that merit a federal that sort? The reason he gave was that it inquiry of any kind? That is one of the most could damage the capacity of the authorities nonsensical grabbles. It is even worse than the to proceed against such people. I will quote way the former federal government used the directly from Senator Carr’s minority report external affairs power to grab as many powers on the soccer inquiry. It states: as it could. There was continual mention made by witnesses I am particularly concerned with one ele- during the course of the Committee’s inquiry of ment of Senator Spindler’s motion. If the possible commission of serious crimes . . . includ- ing non-payment of tax on significant international opposition are genuine in proceeding with this transfer fees; alleged bribes... inquiry, and if they are not only paying lip- service to Senator Carr’s alleged support for All the stuff that Senator Carr is now alleg- propriety, I draw their attention to paragraph ing. The minority report continues: 10 of the motion, which states: The Clerk of the Senate gave advice that evidence That the committee have power to appoint before a Parliamentary committee could not be used subcommittees consisting of three or more of its in judicial proceedings and therefore, a committee’s members, and to refer to any such subcommittee inquiry could make it difficult for law enforcement any of the matters which the committee is empow- authorities to conduct successful investigations into ered to consider, and that the quorum of a subcom- the same matters. Defence counsel would obviously mittee be a majority of the senators appointed to use the fact that a matter had been uncovered by a the subcommittee. committee to obstruct prosecution. We know that the government has a minority This is from Senator Carr, the man who is on that committee. There is nothing in that now generating this inquiry. It further states: paragraph to prevent this committee, if It was conceivable that a guilty party could inten- formed, from appointing a subcommittee with tionally raise a matter before a committee to evade no government members on it—despite the subsequent conviction. Therefore, there was a distinct possibility that the Committee’s pursuit of recommendation of the Senate Procedure its inquiry would impede inquiries into the same Committee that it should be obligatory for a matters by law enforcement authorities, and subse- government member to be a member of any quent judicial proceedings. 504 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Isn’t it incredible that Senator Carr has made proposal. It is a disgrace that it has been put these allegations, under parliamentary privi- up here, particularly in terms of Senator lege, of illegality and of criminal activity, yet Carr’s claims that these committees provide: he says that allegations of that kind coming . . . an opportunity for damaging allegations to be before a committee could well prejudice legal made under the protection of parliamentary privi- action being taken? I recognise that in this lege. instance Senator Spindler may well be the I will make one final quote from Senator ‘innocent abroad’ that I mentioned earlier Carr’s remarks. He said: rather than the co-conspirator. However, if he has not focused his mind on that issue, maybe The recommendations arising from the Committee’s investigations of alleged instances of conflict of it is about time he started doing so. interest leave individuals’ reputations sullied, even There are other matters which I think are where no findings have been made against them. worth mentioning regarding Senator Carr’s That is exactly what the likely outcome of hypocritical position on this matter. In terms this inquiry will be. Allegations will be made of complaints about the soccer inquiry, he and publicity will be given to them. And said that the inquiry was ‘entirely an issue of when this committee reports that no further civil liberties and the proper use of a Senate action should be taken—as I expect it will— committee.’ In his minority report he also those reputations will remain sullied because stated: of the allegations made against those people. Sensationalised claims make good media stories, At Senator Carr’s initiative, those allegations but unfounded allegations and malicious rumours will remain. have made persons prominent in soccer the object of public vilification for which there is no effective The burden that will be imposed on this redress. committee to behave itself in this kind of We should not confuse the "public interest" with political climate is overwhelming. I, frankly, the partisan political advantage of individual do not believe that the opposition and the politicians. Democrats, who have the majority on this That is one of the quaintest quotes of all committee, have the integrity to ensure that time—Senator Carr saying: propriety will reign if this committee pro- ceeds. We should not confuse the "public interest" with the partisan political advantage of individual Senator Chris Evans—Indeed. politicians. Senator BOB COLLINS (Northern Terri- That is exactly what this inquiry is all about. tory) (11.41 a.m.)—Indeed. That is precisely I want to conclude with a couple of other the point I was about to make. Fancy that quotes on this matter. The message that this coming from you, Senator Baume! We have inquiry is totally improper was reinforced in had the usual bluff and bluster that you a Sun-Herald article by Greg Craven, and I specialise in and, coming from you, it is rich was intrigued to note that both Senator Carr indeed, as we on this side of the House all and Senator Ray quoted from Terry McCrann appreciate. As my colleague Senator Carr in a very favourable way as if he entirely pointed out by way of interjection, this non- supported their position. It is extraordinary sense about the terms of reference of the that both of them managed to omit this key committee is coming from a political party sentence from Terry McCrann’s article, which which, only a few short months ago—and that said: is all it was—set up an important Senate committee on which the Labor Party had two . . . a federal inquiry into what is unquestionably members out of seven. That is rich indeed. an internal state matter is intrinsically inadequate. And in a strict sense, arguably improper. Senator Michael Baume—We could be Isn’t it remarkable that neither of them read excluded altogether. Don’t you understand that sentence from McCrann’s comments? It that? Are you too thick? shows the sort of dishonesty that is central to Senator BOB COLLINS—The terms of this recommendation. This is a dishonest reference are generous considering what your Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 505 practice has been, Senator Baume. You know What interested me about the Premier of that you set double standards on this in the Victoria’s performance in respect of the address that you just made to the Senate, and casino was that, in his opening speech at the that is why you are so defensive about it. The casino, he talked about the casino’s ‘vision’. fact is—and you ignored all this in your Senator Spindler—Ha, ha! address—if I were Jeff Kennett, I would welcome this inquiry. If I were Jeff Kennett, Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes, Senator I would render this inquiry completely un- Spindler, I know that you are amused. What necessary by setting up what is screamingly precisely is the ‘vision’ of a casino? The obvious needs to be done—that is, an inquiry ‘vision’ of a casino is that there is a sucker in Victoria to investigate this. born every minute, and the job of a casino is to relieve the mugs of as much of their As Senator Ray said quite properly, this is disposable income as it possibly can. Some the second best option. The appropriate option vision! is for the Victorian government to set up its I am not a wowser. I am not saying that own inquiry. If nothing is to be feared from people should not have the opportunity to this inquiry, it will simply result in a huge gamble. I come from the Northern Territory political boost for the Victorian Premier and, where we bet on two flies crawling up a wall. of course, derision and ignominy for the I loath and detest gambling personally. It is critics. a game for mugs. I learnt very early in my I have no doubt in my mind that, if I were youth when SP bookies were the go that it a Victorian state government minister, I was the bookies who drove around in the big, would not have to be subpoenaed to appear flash cars not the punters. I learnt that lesson before this Senate inquiry. I would have a very early in my life. letter written already offering my attendance If people want to gamble, fine. Fancy an at the inquiry so I could make my case, and over-the-top, absurd, ridiculous statement by I will tell you why. In respect of what is the Premier of Victoria that this, the biggest already on the public record, the deal over the casino, the biggest repository for mugs in the Crown Casino in Victoria stinks on ice. It is country to be relieved of their incomes, had as simple as that. If it is not corrected, it will a ‘vision’. Some vision for Victoria! continue to stink on ice. The facts are that what is on the public I was very interested to hear Senator Baume record already indicates that the deal stunk. If quote at length from the article referring to I were a Victorian minister, I would not be Tim Costello as a left wing cleric. He did not able to wait for the opportunity to get into bother to mention that this non-rating, left this Senate committee. Because, as Senator wing cleric just happens to be the brother of Ray said, quite correctly, if nothing is evi- the Australian Treasurer (Mr Costello). I denced in this committee that indicates there mention that because of what Tim Costello was any impropriety in respect of the casino, said on the Four Corners program, and that the only thing that will happen is that Jeff deserves to be repeated here. He was spot on Kennett’s reputation will come out of this when he said: enhanced and his critics precisely the reverse. Thanks, particularly to the Premier of this State, we The reason that I came into this chamber to have placed gaming and Crown Casino right at the speak in this debate at all is because of the centre of the culture, and right at the centre of State casual and gross defamation of the former Government taxes, so that a State Government that member for the Northern Territory by Senator starts to sponsor gaming has become a State Richard Alston. Again, look at the hypocrisy Government in my view that is now being spon- of the words just uttered by Senator Baume. sored by gaming particularly sponsored by Crown Casino. It’s caught and corrupted so you have He talked about the coward’s castle of parlia- almost government in this state now by Crown, for mentary privilege. I agree with Senator Crown and of Crown instead of by the people for Baume on that sentiment. I am here, having the people and of the people. spoken to Warren Snowdon about that outra- 506 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 geous defamation of him based, as I am now Why would Warren Snowdon bother lobby- about to demonstrate, on total ignorance of ing himself? It is a piece of nonsense. Senator the facts of the issuing of the casino licence Alston does not even know the slightest at Christmas Island. information about how that casino licence was I invite Senator Alston to take that painful granted. I would be delighted if it was can- walk 20 feet to those doors and say precisely vassed in this committee. If government outside those brass doors just over there what senators wished to canvass it, I would be very he said in here an hour ago about Warren pleased indeed if they did, because I know Snowdon. Unfortunately for the Northern that Warren Snowdon does not have anything Territory, Warren Snowdon is no longer the to fear. Richard Alston, I have to say, would member for the Northern Territory. I deeply be in a very difficult position if he said regret to say that, not so much on Warren’s outside this chamber what he said in here this account but on the Territory’s account. It is morning. sad that he is no longer the member. A simple telephone call, Senator Troeth, by The reason I mention that is that one of the Senator Richard Alston to your government’s things about him not being the member is that now department would have given him the he has not yet settled into another occupation, information that the department carried out an and Richard Alston’s house and half of absolutely, arm’s length, transparent and Richard Alston’s bank balance he would find scrupulous assessment of that casino licence very handy at the moment. His opportunity of before it was granted. It had nothing whatever getting them in a defamation action against to do with Warren Snowdon, who did not Richard Alston would be a laid down misere. lobby any minister of that government. Why would he have to, seeing he was the signatory So I would invite Senator Richard Alston, on the licence? Clearly, Senator Alston is not in terms of that gross defamation in here this even aware of it. morning, to step outside parliament and say outside that door what he said in here. I So I would suggest to Senator Alston that would be very glad for my colleague if he did he make that telephone call to the department that. now. When his now Territory’s department Government senators interjecting— advises him of the process that was used, a retraction would be entirely appropriate in Senator BOB COLLINS—You should here. I have no doubt if it is not made, War- refer to what Senator Baume had to say about ren Snowdon, who is now a private citizen, the coward’s castle of parliamentary privilege. will seek, under the rules of this Senate, to The boot is on the other foot in this regard. ensure that such a correction is made to the Senator Alston said that Warren Snowdon parliamentary record. It was a cowardly and lobbied ministers to ensure that Indonesian casual defamation by Senator Alston in here interests got the casino licence at Christmas this morning, based not only on no facts but Island. What a nonsensical, apart from false, on no information that Senator Alston even statement by Senator Richard Alston. Why bothered to obtain from the relevant govern- would Warren Snowdon bother lobbying ment department. himself? The most telling and correct statement made As it happens—and Senator Alston is in the Four Corners program in respect of utterly ignorant of this, obviously—it was casinos, and in particular their relationship Warren Snowdon who was the government with governments, was two words uttered by representative who signed the casino licence Sir Laurence Street. In fact, what Sir Lau- on the recommendation of the departments rence Street said on that program was the who conducted an absolutely arm’s length, usual careful and considered language that he transparent assessment process. It was Warren habitually uses. I noted today, along with Snowdon—clearly, Richard Alston is not even Senator Carr, his call today for the matter of aware of it—that actually signed the licence casinos and their regulation to be a national on behalf of the government. issue and not a state issue. There is no other Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 507 business—and I would like to get a denial because of the opportunities that exist in the from anyone in the government with a straight casino business and their relationships with face to this—that a government engages in governments, these operations should be that is anything like a casino. squeaky clean. Casinos stand out on their own. If you want I will conclude by repeating the sentiments a very good example of just how sensitive an of Senator Ray. We on this side of the House issue casino licensing and practice is, I sug- would far prefer the Victorian Premier to set gest you go to the United States. Have a talk up an inquiry of his own than us do it. Jeff in particular to the Nevada gaming authorities Kennett should welcome the inquiry. I would about just how scrupulous you have to be personally like to issue an invitation to Jeff about the awarding of casino licences and Kennett to willingly appear before the com- their current practice. mittee. Knowing Jeff Kennett to be the I had some experience in this regard, many assertive, abrasive, up-front character he is, years ago as a member of the Northern why would he not want to be in there boots Territory parliament, with the outrageous and all, making us look like fools and making events involved in the ousting of Federal himself look like a hero, if he has nothing to Pacific Hotels, an Australian operator, from fear. the casino in Darwin and the introduction of The facts are that this myriad of connec- overseas operators into that casino, Pratts and tions—and they are already on the public Aspinalls. record; they were outlined by Senator Ray— As I said at the time in the Northern Terri- demand some explanation which so far has tory parliament on the compulsory acquisition not been given. The Victorian government legislation, which the then conservative Chief and everyone attached to it will have an Minister introduced into the Northern Terri- opportunity, if the Senate inquiry is set up, to tory’s parliament, with great respect to my correct the record and make themselves look colleague Senator Carr—I blush for having like heroes and the Senate inquiry look said this so many years ago—not even the foolish. That opportunity may be before them Victorian Left on its worst day would have if Jeff Kennett does not do what is still open introduced such legislation. And it is a fact, to him to do—that is, set up an inquiry they wouldn’t have. himself. I have heard of compulsory acquisition What is already on the public record, in legislation for public purposes like high respect of the deal that was done in Victoria, schools, hospitals and things. But the North- stinks on ice. It demands a public explanation. ern Territory government on that occasion Members of the public are not mugs. Those introduced a compulsory acquisition bill to opposite made references to majority reports. compulsorily acquire $50 million worth of We can also have minority reports in Senate casino property from a private operator, not committees. Members of the public will be to use it for a public purpose but to hand it able to judge the evidence that is given before over to two other private operators of their that Senate committee and make up their own choice. minds about whether or not the establishment The history of appalling dealings between of the committee was justified. I think the casino operators and governments in this case for setting it up is overwhelming. country goes back a very long way. I support Senator TROETH (Victoria) (11.55 Sir Laurence Street’s call today for a national a.m.)—Senator Spindler, in his remarks which interest in the respective casinos. They are attempted to justify the setting up of this like no other business. The very nature of the inquiry, would have us believe that if we do casino business cries out for what Sir Lau- not set up this inquiry we are encouraging the rence Street said in the Four Corners pro- whispering to continue. I point out that the gram. Sir Laurence Street was asked, ‘How whispering, the innuendo and the smear clean must a casino operator be?’ He replied, campaign has been all that has marked the ‘Squeaky clean.’ It is precisely correct that, attempt to set up this inquiry so far. 508 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Even Senator Spindler—and I say this in of your party, and not the casino, as some- acknowledgment of his service to the Sen- thing that occupies the minds of Victorians. ate—has been making some unsubstantiated Senator Carr attempted to put a statesman- statements for some time which add to the like constitutional facade on this by contin- whispering. The Four Corners program, ually quoting Sir Laurence Street, just as which has been quoted by almost every Senator Bob Collins did, but again he resorted speaker in this debate, contained, for the large to personal vilification. Senator Collins talked part, anonymous allegations. It will be very about senators going outside the chamber and interesting to see whether these allegations are making their remarks there. You should be substantiated by people who choose to appear called to account for that. You called in every before the committee—if the committee is mention of any controversy that the Kennett indeed set up. government has been involved in over the last four years and attempted to make them an The real reason for setting up this commit- issue. Ninety per cent of them had nothing tee of inquiry is, as Senator Alston pointed whatever to do with the casino inquiry. I out, a grubby political exercise. I would go would like to see Senator Carr go outside and further and say that it is is a political stunt by make the remarks he made about certain Senator Carr to divert attention from the people there. present woes of the ALP in Victoria. Senator Carr knows very well that every day in that This has also resulted in the political perse- democratic organ, the Age, there is a list of cution of a successful company. How many state ALP members, if not federal ALP Labor senators have ever run a business? How members, that various factions of your party many of them have ever put risk capital into wish to remove. Sometimes your name figures a business, in the way that the casino propri- in them and sometimes it does not. I note that etors have done? It is no wonder Labor in today’s Age there is a list of 17 state ALP senators cannot understand the business members that Mr Brumby should be able to expertise of those who choose to run small remove. businesses. Do those opposite understand that the If you remove those people that will not casino employs thousands of Victorians, leave you many members in the Victorian particularly young Victorians, who thereby get state parliament. You know very well that you a start in the tourism and hospitality business? have set up this inquiry with a running time It is also a way of rebuilding Victorian busi- of six months to give you and your other ness after the rust-bucket years of Labor factional leaders time to re-organise in Vic- administration. At least Victorian business is toria. You are going to need a lot more time now getting up and running again. The casino than that. has been voted a success by the thousands of Victorians who choose to patronise it. Your Victorian state leader, Mr Brumby, tried to make the casino an issue during the In relation to what Senator Collins said election and he failed. It is not an issue that about Reverend Tim Costello’s remarks, the is of importance to Victorian voters. If it was, choice that is made by Victorians and others why did they vote overwhelmingly for the who choose to patronise the casino is a moral coalition to be returned to the government choice that is made by any individual. They benches? Your own party has commented on are not compelled by any government to visit the low profile of the casino as an issue for the casino and contribute to its earnings. Victorians. It is reported that Senator Conroy Every individual makes a choice about wheth- pointed this out to Mr Brumby and castigated er or not they are going to go to the casino. him for attempting to make it an election That is up to them. It has nothing to do with issue. Why are you doing it? You simply the government. want to remove the media focus on the ALP. Hudson Conway won this contract through Even those democratic organs, the Age news- a tendering process that was laid down by the paper and ABC radio, have taken up the woes previous Labor administration, so let us see Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 509 the Labor senators who are on this inquiry they are issues subject to the inquiry is carefully take people through that tendering another thing—let those be brought out and process. It will be seen to be a transparent let them be properly and fully dealt with. process that was adhered to. You have noth- There have been a number of rampant ing to run on in this inquiry, and you know contradictions and a number of rampant loss it. This is a grubby, political exercise de- of memories by key players and key com- signed for political ends, and it should be panies in the case of this casino. My real opposed by the Senate. reason for rising in this debate is as a Western Senator COOK (Western Australia) (12.01 Australian senator who has seen allegations p.m.)—I did not intend to speak in this debate made about public conduct, has witnessed at at all, but some of the contributions to this close quarters a major royal commission in debate have caused me to exercise my right his state, the royal commission into WA Inc., to speak and to draw some particular matters and has seen those proceedings go forward of serious importance to the attention of this and be concluded and the reputations of chamber. I first of all say that I am not a individuals be affected by them. wowser. I do not have an anti-casino mentali- What we had in this debate today was, I ty. On three separate occasions I have spent believe, a desperate but nonetheless malicious $10 on gambling in the casino at Wrest Point attempt by speakers from the government during ALP national conferences. Although I side—in particular, the key contributor to am not a high roller, I have gambled in a whom I refer is now back in the chamber: casino three times. Senator Alston—to oppose the idea of this I am not a non-gambler in that sense. inquiry. They then went on with what might Therefore, I do not have anything against be termed broadly as an effort to threaten the casinos. But I do believe that, where govern- opposition or stare them down about pursuing ments set up casinos and issue licences, who this inquiry by talking about what else might obtains that licence should be subject to the be done within the terms of reference that greatest and most detailed scrutiny. There Senator Alston alleged would affect people on should be attaching to the issuance of licences the Labor side. no sense whatever that the operation of a Senator Collins has dealt with the allega- casino will be done in any way other than tions about the Northern Territory. In the case with the maximum probity and in the most of Western Australia, allegations were also legal and efficient way. made about the Leader of the Opposition, What we have in Victoria, though, is a Kim Beazley. I want to deal with those. They smell, which has been detailed by a number are despicable allegations by Senator Alston. of senators in this debate in considerable They have no factual basis. They are a despe- detail, that hangs over the licence for the rate attempt by him to try to intimidate the casino in Victoria. There has been a failure of opposition to not proceed in a matter of political will or a refusal to act, which is public honesty. They will not work. But, since probably more the direct description, in they have been put on the record by Senator Victoria to in fact investigate it. Alston, I contacted Mr Beazley’s office and So the Australian Democrats have moved a I can tell the Senate that the allegations made motion in this chamber—I am happy to by Senator Alston in the debate today are support it and the opposition will support it— fundamentally and absolutely untrue, that Mr in order to see that this smell can be removed Beazley has never been involved in the issues by opening the doors and windows of what to which Senator Alston referred. I believe the happened in Victoria and letting the cold words that Senator Alston uttered were meant wind of an inquiry blow through to let the maliciously and were meant to damage the facts out, let the judgments be made on those reputation of Mr Beazley. They were done facts and let the issue be settled. If there are under parliamentary privilege. substantial issues of wrongdoing here—there I, with Senator Collins, suggest to Senator are certainly substantial questions but whether Alston that the only honest and fair thing now 510 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 open to him is to withdraw those allegations. he originally sought to have put down. I If he declines to withdraw those allegations, acknowledge that, and it goes some of the he should take that 20-metre walk out of this way towards dealing with a few of the prob- chamber and repeat them outside of the area lems, for example, the legal problems that of public privilege and let the law then take may well be involved. I believe that the its course. Senate and I have a responsibility to ensure Having put on the record Mr Beazley’s that, in establishing an inquiry with these position, I do not want to dwell on that any terms of reference, we are acting with propri- longer. It is absolutely clear that these are ety, that we are acting legally and, further- malicious allegations meant to damage Mr more, that we are acting effectively. Beazley. It is also absolutely clear that they As to the first point, I feel that we would be are a red herring meant to deflect public acting legally. I should not think that there attention from the nature of what has hap- would be a successful challenge to this pened in Victoria and the need for this in- particular committee on legal and constitu- quiry. If we were to wheel this debate around tional grounds. However, to discover whether about Western Australia, Mr Beazley, et we are acting efficiently and effectively—and cetera, the need for this inquiry would be lost. thus with that type of propriety—I would like I repeat that the allegations made are to canvass the matter. Before I do, I seek fundamentally and absolutely untrue. In the leave to incorporate into Hansard pages 51 case of Western Australia there has been a and 52 of electronic Odgers. royal commission; a royal commission which Leave granted. embraced the granting of the licence for the The document reads as follows: Burswood Island Casino and the circum- Power to conduct inquires stances surrounding the granting of the Each House of the Parliament has the power to licence. Mr Beazley’s name was in no sense require the attendance of persons and production of canvassed in that royal commission in relation documents and to take evidence under oath. This to that matter—nor would it be and nor power supports one of the major functions of the should it have been because he had nothing Houses: that of inquiring into matters of concern as to do with it. a necessary preliminary to debating those matters and legislating in respect of them. The power has For the government to trot this thing out long been regarded as essential for a legislature. now is, I think, a despicable performance, a The power is, in the last resort, dependent upon the reflection on their ethics, and something that power to punish contempts, in so far as the penal the Prime Minister should do something about power is the means by which the Houses may if the individuals concerned here in this enforce the attendance of witnesses, the answering chamber are not prepared to do the honour- of questions and the production of documents. able thing themselves. The power to conduct inquiries is usually not exercised by the Houses themselves, but is delegat- Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (12.08 ed to committees by giving witnesses and the p.m.)—I have listened to as much of the production of documents. A major concomitant of debate as I can. There certainly have been that delegation is that proceedings in parliamentary very serious allegations raised in this cham- committees are proceedings in Parliament, and the ber—and, indeed, elsewhere—about the immunity from impeachment or question in the course attaches to words uttered in committee tendering process for the Victorian Crown proceedings by members and witnesses and to the Casino. I am, of course, aware of the reports production of documents to committees, as declared that have been published in the media, Terry by the 1987 Act. McCrann’s report in particular. Those sorts of The power may be confined to inquiries into reports raise questions about the propriety of subjects in respect of which the Commonwealth particular individuals and, indeed, the whole Parliament has the power to legislate. There is process itself. judicial authority for the proposition that the Commonwealth and its agencies may not compel I am perfectly well aware that Senator the giving of evidence and the production of Spindler has attempted to broaden the terms documents except in respect of subjects within the of reference for the inquiry from those which Commonwealth’s legislative competence (Attorney- Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 511

General for the Commonwealth v Colonial Sugar of state governments which the Australian Parlia- Refinery Co Ltd 1913 15 CLR 182; Lockwood v ment does not possess. the Commonwealth 1954 90 CLR 177 at 182-3), There is also a question of whether the immunity and, if the matter were litigated, the High Court of other houses’ proceedings from impeachment might well hold that this limitation applies to the and question before other tribunals (the Bill of inquiry powers of Senate committees. The United Rights, article 9 immunity which most Australian States Supreme Court so held in relation to the Houses possess) prevents any inquiries into their Congress (Quinn v US 1955 349 US 155). proceedings by the Senate or its committees (see Although the question has not been adjudicated, the 54th Report of the Committee of Privileges, PP there is probably an implicit limitation on the 133/1995). power of the Houses to summon witnesses, in Senator HARRADINE—I thank the relation to members of the other House or of a house of a state or territory legislature. Standing Senate. I do apologise to the Leader of the order 178 provides that if the attendance of a Government in the Senate (Senator Hill), member or officer of the House of Representatives Senator Carr and Senator Spindler for not is required by the Senate or a Senate committee a showing them these pages in advance. message shall be sent to the House requesting that the House give leave for the member or the officer To quote from Odgers, under the heading to attend. This standing order reflects a rule of ‘Power to conduct inquiries’ on page 51 of courtesy and comity between the Houses, and as electronic Odgers: such it ought properly to be observed in relation to Each House of the Parliament has the power to houses of state and territory parliaments. It may be require the attendance of persons and production of that these limitations on the power to summon documents and to take evidence under oath. This witnesses in relation to other houses have the force power supports one of the major functions of the of law, and may extend to officers of state and Houses: that of inquiring into matters of concern as territory governments. The Select Committee on the a necessary preliminary to debating those matters Australian Loan Council, in its interim report in and legislating in respect of them. The power has March 1993, accepted advice by the Clerk of the long been regarded as essential for a legislature. Senate that it could not summon witnesses mem- The power is, in the last resort, dependent upon the bers of the House of Representatives and of the power to punish contempts, in so far as that penal houses of state parliaments. The committee recom- power is the means by which the Houses may mended that the Senate ask the various houses to enforce attendance of witnesses, the answering of require their members to attend and give evidence questions and the production of documents. before the committee (the advice also indicated that the houses have the power so to compel their Odgers then goes into matters relating to the members, but that question also has not been production of documents, which I will come adjudicated). The Senate passed a resolution and back to later. Odgers also says: requests were sent to the various houses according- ly. The various houses declined to compel their The power may be confined to inquiries into members to attend. (5/10/93, J.566; 7/10/93, J.608; subjects in respect of which the Commonwealth 20/10/93, J.657; 21/10/93, J.683; see also Chapter Parliament has power to legislate. 17, Witnesses) For an instruction by the Senate to Clearly, the legal basis for the establishment a committee to invite the Prime Minister and other of any committee must be that the Common- ministers to give evidence, see 9/3/95, J.3063-4. wealth parliament does have the power to This implied limitation may also cover officers legislate in respect of these matters. Quite of other houses and state and territory executive clearly, that is one of the reasons Senator government officers. Spindler has mentioned the corporations In the United States the view is taken that each power in these terms of reference; he has House of the Congress and their committees may referred to international credibility, and so on. summon members and officers of state govern- ments, provided that this is for the purposes of Of course, we can say that it is in our inquiries into matters within the legislative power particular legislative responsibility. The of the Congress. The question has not been adjudi- corporations power provides us with the cated, but there are precedents for the summoning ability to enact legislation in respect of these of state officers and their responding. It must be matters, although as yet we have not done so. noted, however, that article 4, section 4 of the US Constitution, whereby the United States guarantees We can talk about taxation and international to every state a republican form of government, money matters, and so on. I do not believe gives the Congress a general power of supervision that there is any legislative problem, and I 512 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 refer to the whistleblowers select committee the tendering process. There has been com- as an example. If the unresolved whistleblow- ment made during the debate as to whether ers select committee can get away with being we are competent to deal with these matters, legal, I should think almost anything can. On which include allegations of impropriety, if that ground there appears to be little problem. not criminal activities, and whether the com- On another ground, however, as to whether mittee is then able to conduct the inquiry with the committee will be able to deal with the proper application of the principles of matters effectively, I wonder whether we are natural justice. I would be a bit worried about doing the right thing in establishing such a that, frankly. committee. Already the Victorian government Clearly the best result in this regard is an has suggested that it will not cooperate with inquiry by a royal commissioner or some sort the committee. If that is the case, then the of judicial inquiry. I know Senator Spindler committee will simply hear evidence from will come back and say, ‘There is Buckley’s other people and you will not get to the facts. hope of that occurring in Victoria.’ I agree I think Senator Cook said, ‘By this commit- that this is a problem, and it is not essentially tee we want to get at the facts.’ How can you only Victoria’s problem but everybody’s get at the facts if Victorian public servants, let problem. alone ministers of the Crown, fail to give As members of parliament, as members of evidence to the committee? I do not think you the Senate, we have a duty to ensure that are going to get the facts under those circum- what we do in establishing our committees— stances. Yes, the committee does have the the way we establish them, the terms of power to demand the production of docu- reference we give them and the conduct of the ments and to require evidence to be given inquiries—is entirely appropriate to our under oath; but if these documents are re- functions. Frankly, yes, this is a problem in fused, as they are likely to be refused, then Victoria principally and that is mainly what what next? Yes, we do appear to have the it is all about. We will be skating on thin ice power to then subpoena witnesses and to if we proceed with this inquiry, because of require their attendance. But page 52 of the the factors I have mentioned. electronic Odgers’ Australian Senate Practice Finally, I am very concerned about the says: effects of the casino culture, not only in Although the question has not been adjudicated, Victoria but elsewhere. Each member of the there is probably an implicit limitation on the Senate would have heard heart-rending stories power of the Houses to summon witnesses, in relation to members of the other House or of a of families who have been economically house of a state or territory legislature. destroyed and thrust into poverty, penury, That deals with the people the committee may because of the casino cultures that are devel- wish to require to attend to give evidence— oping in each of the states of Australia. people in another legislature, like the House Maybe that is one of the things that the of Assembly in Victoria. But, as to summon- community affairs committee of the Senate ing witnesses who are employees of the should be looking at. It impacts very largely Victorian state government, I think there on Commonwealth funds and taxpayers’ would be a very messy situation indeed. money, which have to then bail out people There would be a rather large question mark who are in such poverty. We have a standing over the effectiveness of the committee if we committee on community affairs which could were not able to ensure that those documents well do that. were provided to the committee and the I come back to the point I have already public servants were required to attend. I made. I should think any challenge to the think you would get into a very difficult legality of this committee would fail on the situation there. I do feel that we should think precedents we have thus far. However, I again carefully about this. consider that, in the event such a committee The debate has been very useful in high- were not to be provided with the documents, lighting certain alleged problems relating to such a committee would not be able to ensure Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 513 the attendance of key witnesses and that the by other speakers, that would certainly be a exercise would be one, at best, of futility and, feather in the cap of not only Mr Kennett but at worst, politicisation of a situation that also the coalition in this parliament. I am should not be politicised but judged on the rather surprised that the coalition parties are merits of the matter that is brought before it. not prepared to do that and also that Senator Therefore, I will vote against the establish- Alston has not prevailed on Mr Kennett to ment of the committee. I do hope that the have an independent judicial inquiry in establishment of this committee will not cast Victoria. That clearly would have been, by a reflection on the work of the Senate in its far, the best way to deal with this. other committees. Each of us is very commit- It was only when this was refused—and I ted to the committee system in the Senate. It am going back a few weeks now—that I has been a good system over the years. It has initiated the call for a Senate inquiry, because enabled members of the public to come before the matter that we are dealing with here is a the various committees to put their point of matter that is certainly national in its implica- view in respect of matters that are specifically tion. It deals with Australia’s reputation and related to our powers under the Constitution. how we do business. That does not stop at the By and large, the work of the various com- border of one particular state; it is also co- mittees has been superior, quoted repeatedly vered, as has been clearly outlined, by a and quite influential in the development of number of acts of parliament at Common- legislation in respect of matters that are wealth level. I believe that we must at all specifically for us. times be conscious of the national implica- Again I do say to Senator Spindler and the tions. I am glad to see that Senator Harradine other speakers that I think a public service is has agreed with this particular proposition: being done in the raising of the issues. But that it is, in fact, a matter that is legal for us when it comes to the question of whether or to pursue on the basis that it does cover not this committee is appropriate, having matters of national interest. regard to the functions of the Senate under the I believe that, on that particular point, we Constitution, I consider it not to pass that test. should treat with a degree of caution the Senator SPINDLER (Victoria) (12.25 statements made by Mr Craven in the Herald- p.m.)—in reply—I am sure senators will be Sun today, remembering that Mr Craven was pleased to hear that in my closing remarks I at one stage an adviser to the Kennett govern- do not propose to traverse yet again all the ment. I believe that we cannot discount the arguments that have been advanced by previ- fact that he may have a particular bias in this ous speakers. But there are a number of debate. points that I need to address, not least in In saying that I do not wish to traverse the answer to the remarks which have just been arguments, I do not wish, however, to be made by Senator Harradine, whose experience taken to agree with all the points that were and values I treat with great respect. Before made by the speakers. I certainly am not I do that, however, I would tell the chamber gunning, as one would say, for any particular that I have been asked by Senator Chama- individual in this matter. What I am con- rette—who has been seeking the call, but cerned about is the relationship between unsuccessfully—to state that she would have government and business, and how our gov- spoken in support of the motion and will vote ernments—and in this particular case, the in support of the motion to establish a select Victorian government—do business. As I said, committee as described in my motion. that does reflect on Australia as a whole and A number of the points need to be an- our capacity to function as a nation. swered. First of all, there is Senator Alston’s Senator Harradine has raised an interesting confidence that the inquiry will find there has point and is hesitating to support this motion. been absolutely nothing untoward in the But the question is: when the problem has licensing process. If Senator Alston really arisen due to the actions of one particular believes that, then the coalition parties should government, and that government does not see support the motion because, as has been said fit to pursue it in an independent judicial 514 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 inquiry, should we abdicate our responsibility lieve, to be answered basically in the affirma- in the Senate to hold governments account- tive because Mr Kennett has been at great able? pains to state that the casino authority is an My answer to that is a clear no. I believe independent authority. He claims the authority the Senate has the responsibility to hold is not under the control of the Victorian governments accountable. It is something that government. It is therefore not part of the the Australian Democrats have seen as their government and is not subject to the premier’s task from the day they entered this chamber. directions. If it is found to be an independent It is something that we will pursue. authority, then quite clearly the members and employees of the authority can be asked to The matters that Senator Harradine has appear before the inquiry. raised are clearly of national importance. Because they have arisen in a particular state does not affect the fact that they are of na- Of course, it would be better if we had a tional importance and therefore are a proper judicial inquiry; if we had a royal commis- responsibility of this chamber. Senator sion. But the terms of reference call for this Harradine seems to have placed a lot of committee to establish whether there is need, emphasis on the aspect that the inquiry will on all the available evidence that is before the not be able to compel all material witnesses committee, to establish such an inquiry. I to appear and will not be able to obtain all believe that we are going as far as we pos- the documents that it may wish because the sibly can in clearing up a matter that has been Victorian government so far, through Mr like a cloud resting over Victoria. Kennett, has indicated that it is unlikely to cooperate. I do not believe that we should The matter that Senator Harradine raised prejudge that particular issue. Mr Kennett about the social effects of gambling could, to may well consider that it is to his benefit to a limited extent, possibly be dealt with under appear before the inquiry and to give evi- 1(a) of the terms of reference. To the extent dence to tell his side of the story, as it were. that that proves inadequate in the view of the committee, and if the committee wishes to We should also not forget that there is a raise matters on that, I am sure it could come precedent in recent times for a federal back to the Senate and ask for an extension minister to appear before a state inquiry. That of the terms of reference. It is certainly federal minister, Dr Lawrence, could obvious- something that I would welcome and some- ly have raised the same objection and have thing that we should be considering. The refused to appear. She chose to appear and damage that is being done to the Victorian tell her story. I believe that Mr Kennett may community by the acceleration of the gam- well decide that it is in his interests to do so bling culture is clearly extensive. as well. But in this inquiry we would not, of course, I believe that the debate this morning has rely on Mr Kennett’s evidence alone. There shown conclusively that there is sufficient are witnesses, who are no longer public weight to the allegations—and that is what servants, who can be called. There is a former they are—about the casino process to raise Treasury official, who is now no longer a very serious questions about how the Victori- Treasury official, and who was quite a key an state government has dealt with its rela- person in the process that appears to have tionships with business in the casino licensing taken place. That person could be subpoe- process. I believe it is quite clear that it is naed. We have people who were employees within the powers of the Senate to establish of the Casino Control Authority and who are a committee to inquire into this matter. I also no longer employees. Quite clearly those believe that it is the responsibility of the people could be reached by subpoena. Senate to hold governments accountable and The question of whether current employees to clear up this matter for the benefit of the and members of the casino authority can be proper functioning of all our governments in brought before the committee is also, I be- Australia. I commend the motion to the Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 515

Senate. Question so resolved in the affirmative. Question put: ORDER OF BUSINESS That the motion (Senator Spindler’s) be agreed to. Indexed Lists of Files The Senate divided. [12.40 p.m.] Motion (by Senator Harradine) agreed to: (The Acting Deputy President—Senator That general business notice of motion No. 29 H.G.P. Chapman) standing in the name of Senator Harradine for Ayes ...... 33 today, proposing an order for the production of indexed lists of departmental files, be postponed till Noes ...... 31 two sitting days after today. —— Majority ...... 2 MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST —— The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT AYES (Senator Chapman)—It being 12.45 p.m., I Bell, R. J. Bolkus, N. now call on matters of public interest. Bourne, V. Burns, B. R. Carr, K. Chamarette, C. Days and Hours of Meeting Childs, B. K. Coates, J. Collins, J. M. A. Collins, R. L. Child Care Colston, M. A. Conroy, S. Senator JACINTA COLLINS (Victoria) Cook, P. F. S. Cooney, B. (12.45 p.m.)—Today, I would like to address Crowley, R. A. Evans, C. V. * an issue which is very much in our own Faulkner, J. P. Foreman, D. J. Forshaw, M. G. Lees, M. H. backyard, with respect to the Senate’s sitting Mackay, S. Margetts, D. hours. Firstly, I would like to take senators McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. back to the Governor-General’s speech, where Neal, B. J. Ray, R. F. the Governor-General indicated that the Reynolds, M. Schacht, C. C. government would work to give Australian Sherry, N. Spindler, S. women greater equality of opportunity to Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. succeed and genuine choice in their lifestyle, Woodley, J. their aspirations and how they share family NOES responsibilities. Another admirable sentiment Abetz, E. Baume, M. E. expressed was that the needs of Australian Boswell, R. L. D. Brownhill, D. G. C. families will be placed at the centre of the Calvert, P. H. * Campbell, I. G. national policy agenda. Chapman, H. G. P. Crane, W. Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. But one of the first items introduced by the Gibson, B. F. Harradine, B. new government is a change to sitting hours. Herron, J. Hill, R. M. I am sure senators will recall that the sitting Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. hours of the Senate and, for that matter, the Macdonald, I. McGauran, J. J. J. House of Representatives, have been a matter Minchin, N. H. Newman, J. M. of considerable concern and have been ex- O’Chee, W. G. Panizza, J. H. Parer, W. R. Patterson, K. C. L. plored by procedure committees with respect Short, J. R. Tambling, G. E. J. to those concerns. The concerns expressed by Teague, B. C. Tierney, J. a substantial number of members and senators Troeth, J. Vanstone, A. E. related to sitting times and the effect of those Woods, R. L. hours on family life, health and, importantly, the encouragement of women into federal PAIRS Beahan, M. E. Reid, M. E. parliament. Denman, K. J. Watson, J. O. W. As a result of these concerns, amendments Jones, G. N. Alston, R. K. R. to sitting hours were adopted, with the Senate Lundy, K. Macdonald, S. rising at 8.00 p.m. Yet, in one of its first acts, Wheelwright, T. C. MacGibbon, D. J. the government seeks to extend these hours, * denotes teller in stark contradiction to the noble sentiments 516 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 enunciated by the Governor-General and by Collins speak on other matters that are of members of its own government. importance to her. There is no problem with Let us reflect on some of the concerns that that, but it is important that the chamber were expressed about sitting hours. I, unlike function appropriately. I therefore submit this Senator Bourne, do want to take us back to is contrary to the standing orders. comments made by senators in previous Senator JACINTA COLLINS—On the discussions on these issues. Senator Herron point of order: I indicate that in my previous has often expressed concerns in the chamber comments I referred to the sitting hours not about the stress that is placed on the health only of the Senate but of the House of Repre- and well-being of senators and the effects on sentatives. It is slightly broader than the family life. Senator Herron, when discussing matter that is on the business agenda. It might the sitting hours recommended by the Proced- please those opposite that I am about to move ure Committee in February 1994, before I on to some broader issues. The brief com- entered this place, said: ments I have made about sitting hours are one If I made one contribution to the Procedure Com- small component of a much broader contribu- mittee report it was setting the time limit at 8.00 tion with respect to how this place meets the p.m. needs of members with family responsibilities...... In fact, I think it highlights the concerns I am raising that on such a small point those In this International Year of the Family, what more opposite seek to raise this type of point of appropriate gesture could be made to the families of everybody involved in this ‘whoopee land’ of order. the Senate than to give some time to the families Senator Panizza—You can raise them in outside this chamber by ceasing proceedings at 8.00 the debate. p.m. Senator Woods—That is what the debate Senator Brownhill, commenting on the same is for. matter in November 1994, said: When the procedures committee tabled its report in Senator JACINTA COLLINS—I beg your February on the new sitting times, people pardon? thought— Senator Woods—When the debate is on, Senator Panizza—On a point of order: I raise them then. have been listening to what Senator Collins Senator JACINTA COLLINS—If you has been saying. The proposed sessional have a point of order, would you please raise orders are contained in a motion that is on the it? Notice Paper at present. I think it is slightly out of order to be addressing the chamber on The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT this matter now. (Senator Chapman)—On the point of order: it is correct that standing orders preclude Senator O’Chee—On the same point of anticipating debate on a matter that is on the order: there is a reason why the standing Notice Paper of the Senate. Therefore, my orders preclude senators from debating mat- advice to Senator Collins is that she not ters which are already listed on the Notice transgress that standing order. If she addresses Paper—that is, to get the orderly conduct of the issue in broad, general terms, without the Senate achieved. At the appropriate time, referring particularly to the specifics on the we can debate these matters. But what Sena- Notice Paper, she may avoid transgressing the tor Jacinta Collins is seeking to do is to pre- standing orders. I will listen carefully to what empt the debate. It is unfair to other senators she says to ensure she does not transgress. who may wish to have an interest in the debate at that time, and also it is not condu- Senator JACINTA COLLINS—Thank cive to the good operation of the chamber. you, Mr Acting Deputy President. If I quote Quite clearly, the matter is out of order. We what Senator Troeth said at the time, it will are quite happy to listen to Senator Jacinta highlight the breadth with which I seek to cover the matter. In March last year, Senator Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 517

Troeth also had cause to comment on sitting Colbatch of the Age, who wrote concerning hours and other issues affecting women the gender balance: entering politics. Women have made up 36 per cent of all new Senator Woods—Oh, come on! An obvious members of parliament, setting the scene for a very transgression. different gender balance in the future, but a survey of changes since 1993 shows that the Liberal Party Senator Panizza—She has gone straight does not deserve all the credit some people have back onto it. given it for leading the shift. Since 1993, women have made up 50 per cent of the new Independents The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I and minor party MPs, 41 per cent of the new Labor am listening, Senator. members, but just 31 per cent of the new Liberals Senator JACINTA COLLINS—I quote: and 20 per cent of the new National Party MPs. A number of factors work against greater num- Despite this, it is my hope that the improved bers of women entering politics. representation of women in parliament will ...... produce a more family friendly environment. It is very hard to balance the rearing of small On this theme I would like to discuss the children with the long hours and frequent travel matter of child-care. Senators may recall that associated with a career in politics. a survey of the child-care needs of occupants When considering ways to encourage in- of Parliament House was conducted in Feb- creased participation of women, Senator ruary 1995. Whilst this survey was generalist Troeth ruminated: and directed more at corporate enterprises Should we change the system and make it more than parliament, it did highlight some perti- appealing to women, such as lessening the sitting nent concerns with respect to the occupants of hours, providing more travel allowance, and Parliament House: the hours and days avail- providing creches and tutors for the children of able with respect to child-care and the prob- parliamentarians lems associated with transport to and from I will not comment further on the sitting available child-care. hours except to highlight the inconsistency The March 2 election saw a significant with respect to the government’s overall increase in the number of women represented commitment that was given in the Governor- in parliament. I would have assumed that, General’s address to family life and to the given the government’s commitment to family participation of women within our parlia- and to increasing the opportunities for mentary process. As many of you know, I am women, it would increase family practices in well qualified to speak about this issue both this place but this does not yet seem to have with respect to encouraging women into occurred. There are more women now within parliament and with respect to raising a this place and family. I believe the government has got off to an early and inauspicious start with regard I hope that will change the government’s to its commitments. I am at a loss to explain attitude to family friendly practices. Unfortu- the rationale behind its decision to seek to nately, that does not seem to have been extend sitting hours, particularly with respect indicated yet with respect to sitting hours. to repeated complaints. It cannot be blamed The system of child-care for members of on the supposed ‘black hole’ which has been parliament is certainly lacking. An example used to rationalise most of the other coalition of this was my own experience upon entering changes in moving towards their real agenda. parliament last year when we were in govern- I do, however, commend the coalition for ment. I was pleased to hear at that time that the increase in its number of women in on occasions care was sometimes organised parliament. I would also like to comment for members’ children. I had assumed that about those in the Liberal Party who claim these ‘on occasions’ informal type care that they are leading the shift towards greater arrangements would ensure that child-care representation of female parliamentarians. I would be provided for an event as auspicious refer those opposite to an article by Tim as the opening of parliament. However, I was proven wrong. I accept that the office of the 518 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Sergeant-at-Arms does not want to become a provided? de facto child care agency and neither do I. The Sergeant-at-Arm’s office does not want Pork Producers in Queensland to act as a de facto recreational centre either, Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (12.59 but I am comforted that there is a gym for p.m.)—Today I wish to speak about an issue members of parliament. I have also heard that has been debated in this parliament for a recently that space is now being sought for a long time, albeit in a different geographical physiotherapist. Is it not time that members’ context and that is the issue of Danpork, a family responsibilities were considered a very large piggery company. I am sure people priority? on the government side will remember one of There are extremely limited options avail- the senators on that side who pursued that able for suitable child-care arrangements. I issue for a long time. I want to pursue it in an was told when I entered this place that there entirely different context—don’t get too was a child-care centre in Forrest which worried, Senator Bolkus—and that is in the provides priority for people who work within context of the prospect of Danpork establish- the Parliamentary Triangle. The big problem ing a piggery near Warwick, in Queensland. with this centre is that it is a long day care I want to raise a number of issues, particular- centre which does not cater for the needs of ly in relation to environmental concerns that those people who travel to parliament from I have and also in relation to the problems their electorates. For a member of parliament this will create for small pork producers in to use this service it would essentially involve Queensland. having two full-time child-care places booked, The environmental issues are very signifi- one in the centre in Canberra for sitting weeks cant and very extensive. They concern the and committee work and one somewhere siting of this piggery on the banks of the around your home or somewhere around the Condamine River which, as many senators office of your electorate. This would mean will know, is part of the Murray-Darling effectively having to pay for up to 100 weeks Basin. I am concerned about the siting of the of child-care per year, a realistic option for piggery so close to the Murray-Darling system very few. and the potential—but it is almost more than Additionally, I have been unable to find a potential; it is almost certain—that the efflu- child-care centre in Canberra that offers ent from the piggery and various other things extended child care—no extended hours care involved in the production of the pork will for children. This leads to an interesting impact very significantly on the Murray- dilemma, given the new extended sitting Darling Basin. It is not only a piggery, but hours proposed by our new ‘family friendly’ also an abattoir. And to enable it to happen, government. The government has asserted that the Warwick Shire has rezoned the area for a it wants to encourage women to participate noxious and offensive industry. more fully in the decision making processes I am going to read from some information of government. Now is their opportunity to I have, just to give you an idea of the envi- address the ongoing issue of child care for ronmental concerns which have been raised in members of parliament, their staff and the quite a few places. The special facility, in the staff of those who work around or in Parlia- rezoning description, is for a noxious and ment House in a way which will revolve offensive industry. I am told that the piggery around the actual working hours that occur in will have a five-kilometre river frontage, but this place. I am sure that Senator Harradine’s it will be approximately only one kilometre office will be watching this issue with great from the actual water, near an ephemeral interest, as in that office there is the latest stream with links to the underground water. attempt to combine work with family life. The irrigation area of 250 hectares is in a How many more offices in this place will designated flood plain and already contains need to accommodate young babies before areas of crusted sodic solids. suitable child-care arrangements will be A proposed Department of Primary Indus- Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 519 tries map places this land in the catchment of question by Senator O’Chee, Senator Hill a dam, with the irrigation area likely to be underlined the importance for the coalition of flooded from time to time. One of those times the whole Murray-Darling Basin and the concern they have to ensure that money is is right now, I might add, because of the very made available to try and rehabilitate this extensive rain that we have had in Queens- area. In his answer, Senator Hill said: land in this area in the past few days. The Australia is experiencing land degradation and Pratten township is 3.5 kilometres down- biodiversity loss that significantly threatens our stream and relies on bores for its water environment and the productivity capacity of supply. I believe there is evidence to show agricultural land. that the water quality of these bores will be He also said that it is estimated that over 50 affected adversely by this proposal. per cent of Australia’s productive land is now The information supplied to me also sug- in need of some form of repair. The direct gests that water requirements for piggeries are annual cost of soil and water degradation non-sustainable in the long term and, at alone is in excess of $1.4 billion. 27,000 litres per day per 100 sows, are a huge impact on our water resources. I might add I share that concern. But I want to add to that this is a 10,000 sow piggery, so you can that concern the question: is it sensible to see the amount of water required. There is project that we need to expend vast sums of currently an embargo on further allocation money in rehabilitation when we have the from surface water supplies within the possibility of extending the pollution of that Murray-Darling Basin which must be extend- system? It simply does not make sense to me. ed to groundwater supplies in the near future. One of the strong arguments for establish- In fact, that has happened. An article in the ing this piggery is the projection that there Toowoomba Chronicle of 28 March, says: will be 500 jobs created. The pig growers in The Department of Natural Resources has moved the South Burnett and Monto areas, in par- to protect groundwater supplies on the Darling ticular, have raised with me their concerns Downs by restricting new allocations. about piggeries, such as this and others which The article goes on to say: are contemplated, which may, in fact, destroy small piggeries. Small piggeries will not be . . . there will be a cap on groundwater allocations able to compete. Is it sensible to create 500 in that part of the Upper Condamine Catchment, taking in Warwick and Clifton Shires, and the jobs in one area and, at the same time, by Cambooya Shire within the Kings Creek sub- their estimation, destroy hundreds of family catchment. farms? The equation simply does not make sense. So you can see that there are a lot of concerns in terms of the environment, both from the So I want to place my concerns before the point of view of water supply and, certainly, Senate that these issues which I have raised because of the possibility of pollution of by way of letter with Senator Hill will be ground and underground water supplies. Add taken into account. Not only will we be able to this the concern that I have that, again, we to repair the environment which has certainly add to the pressure on the Murray-Darling been damaged over many years, we will be Basin because of this activity. able also to act sensibly so that further indus- There are concerns with the ability of the tries, such as that contemplated by Danpork, soil—in the area which is to be irrigated by do not further add to the problem. the effluent—to assimilate large volumes of Mr Geoff Knight piggery effluent, which is saline, on a long- term sustainable basis. Currently, there are Senator O’CHEE (Queensland) (1.08 salinity outbreaks in both the Clifton and p.m.)—The Procedure Committee and the Wheatvale-Pratten areas. These are just some Senate Committee of Privileges created a of the environmental concerns that I have. mechanism some time ago whereby people I would point out that in an answer to a who were wrongfully defamed in the Senate 520 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 had a procedure by which they could remedy they know that they have no chance. the slight against their integrity and their Senator Boswell—They are eight per cent name. However, that process takes time. That behind in the polls. is why I am on my feet today. It has been drawn to my attention that Senator Neal, in a Senator O’CHEE—They are eight per cent contribution last week, grossly and malicious- behind in the polls, so what do they do? They ly slandered a person in this place for politi- resort to the good old Labor Party tactic of cal advantage.(Quorum formed) character assassination. I thank you, Mr Acting Deputy President, Senator Woods—A grubby smear! and I thank my colleagues who have come Senator O’CHEE—A grubby smear, and here to ensure that there is free speech in this the parliament had not even been going a parliament. The problem is that, when the week. Labor Party get free speech, they misuse it. Senator Bolkus—Mr Acting Deputy Presi- That is why I have had to rise today: to dent, I raise a point of order. This particular rectify a slight against a person in our com- period of time is allocated for non-controver- munity who is without reproach. Last week, sial debate. I raised the question of a quorum the Senate chamber was used as the place to earlier in an endeavour to raise that particular allege that Mr Geoff Knight, who is a resident aspect of the issue. What Senator O’Chee is of the state seat of Clarence, was in fact not doing now involves a debate which is in fact a resident of the electorate in question and controversial and which does involve the that he was a criminal. The allegation was rights, reputation and defence of another. We made that Mr Knight was not correctly en- always took the view that this particular time rolled at Glenreagh in the state electorate of was allocated for debate which was important Clarence and that, moreover, that constituted for senators in terms of their constituencies, a criminal offence, the penalty for which was policy imperatives and interests, but that it a $10,000 fine or three years in gaol. was not a forum for an attack on individuals Honourable senators, that allegation is or on other senators. With that in mind, I ask wholly wrong. Even if Mr Knight could be that you rule Senator O’Chee out of order in accused of such an offence, the maximum terms of what he should be talking about at penalty that would apply would be a $1,000 this particular time. fine or six months in gaol. In other words, it The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT is not a felony. It is not a criminal offence. (Senator Chapman)—On the point of order, But that did not seem to matter to the honour- my advice is that it is not correct to say that able senator who took Mr Knight’s integrity this period of debate is for matters that are and dragged it through a quagmire of abuse. non-controversial. There is no precedent with The greatest rub is this, honourable senators: regard to that. However, I advise Senator in fact, Mr Knight is correctly enrolled in the O’Chee that he should avoid unduly reflecting electorate of Clarence, because he has had a on the motives or intent of another senator in property there at Glenreagh for the last three his remarks. years. He is lawfully entitled to be enrolled as Senator O’CHEE—Thank you. That is an elector in that state electorate. why, when I made those comments, I did not But that fact did not matter, because a identify the senator in question. Senator senator on the other side misused the right of Bolkus might find himself in need of some free speech to defame somebody for political dial-it advice on Senate procedure. intent. It is my duty in this place to uphold Senator Bolkus—On a point of order, Mr the good name of Mr Knight. One might ask, Acting Deputy President, if Senator O’Chee ‘Why was it that the Senate was used for such goes to the Hansard he will find that at the a shabby tactic?’ The reason the Senate was start of his contribution he did, in fact, refer used—and, may I say, misused—in this to a senator. I must say it is also a bit cute, fashion was that the Labor Party would when everyone knows who he is talking desperately love to win that state seat, but about, to raise the point that he has not raised Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 521 it. He has raised the name. I think the point its front bench—has no intention of conduct- made in his defence is one that cannot justify ing itself to a decent standard. I notice that him in his continued attack on that senator. Senator Murphy over there is better behaved The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I than that, and was better behaved than that do recall that a particular senator was men- when he sat on this side of the chamber. But, tioned at the outset of Senator O’Chee’s if the Labor Party does not realise that times remarks. However, provided that he does not have changed, it will continue to lose elec- reflect on the motives of a senator, his re- tions, and the next one it is going to lose is marks are in order. the state election in Clarence. Senator O’CHEE—Thank you. I was, in Sitting suspended from 1.19 p.m. to fact, reflecting on the motives of the Labor 2.00 p.m. Party. The motive of the Labor Party is, using QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE nothing but obfuscation and grubby character assassination, to try to close an eight per cent Labour Market Programs electoral deficit in the state seat of Clarence. Senator FAULKNER—My question is Why is there an eight per cent electoral deficit directed to the Minister for Employment, in the state seat of Clarence? It is because of Education, Training and Youth Affairs. the policies of the unpopular state govern- Minister, do you support the maintenance in ment. This is exactly what we will see, time real terms of the current level of expenditure and time again, in the Senate chamber: Labor on labour market programs? senators who attempt to attack the integrity Senator VANSTONE—I thank the Leader and good name of people who are involved in of the Opposition for his question. I tried to contrary political beliefs. make this clear to a number of your members Senator Woods—They always have and yesterday but I will spell it out a bit more always will. clearly today. You have, if you want to read Senator O’CHEE—They always will. We them, the policy statements with which we saw dreadful attacks made on Senator Herron went to the election. I am told that your side and Senator Vanstone. I particularly thought are very offended when I remind you that you the attack on Senator Herron—a person who lost that election. I have made it clear in is a humanitarian and actually does some answers in this place that that was the last good for people out of the kindness of his major policy debate and it was decided then own heart—was one of the less savoury that we were the winners. The next major highlights of last week. policy debate will be the budget. In the It is about time that the Labor Party realised context of that let me tell you that I think you that, whilst ever their state government wishes can guarantee one thing: any redesign of to slash jobs in Power North, to close down labour market programs in the budget will be the timber industry, to undermine the agricul- to reduce the complexity that your govern- tural research station in Grafton—which I ment foisted on that area to such an extent have visited, and they do very good work— that counter staff have trouble identifying the and to restrict the rights of freeholders to specific criteria between one program and plough their fields, it will remain unpopular another. and no amount of character smear will change You have created a huge complex mess in that situation. the labour market program area and the only What Mr Howard pledged at the opening of people that that satisfies are yourselves. this parliament, very simply, was this: that he Certainly I do not believe the bureaucrats are believed there should be a better standard of happy with the situation as it is now, and I parliamentary conduct. What we have seen to can assure you that it has made it much date, especially in Senator Bolkus’s spurious harder for the counter staff who have to and ridiculous carryings on of the last 10 deliver those services. More importantly, I can minutes, is that the Labor Party—or at least assure you that a complex system of labour market programs, with all the inefficiencies 522 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 associated therein, makes it very hard for the terms of the number of unemployed youth and unemployed to target their needs, to know the the degree of hidden unemployment currently appropriate program they should be looking being experienced by many thousands of for and to be aware of the range of Common- Australian families? wealth services. Senator VANSTONE—I would like to In short, my answer to you is that if you commence by thanking Senator Abetz for that want to look at the policy statement from the question. The labour force area is very com- election you are welcome to do that. If you plex. In the expectation that members oppos- are looking for a new, major policy statement, ite would want to know something about what wait until the budget. Let me underline that the unemployment situation was, I had some by saying ‘Watch that space’ at the budget for material prepared but, sadly, members oppos- a simplification of the mess your government ite did not choose to ask that question. I made of it. therefore thank Senator Abetz for putting that Senator FAULKNER—I thank Senator question to me because it is important that Vanstone for an answer to a question I did people understand Labor’s legacy in this area. not ask. As a supplementary question, I ask When Labor came to office, at the very whether Senator Vanstone can explain why depth of the 1982-83 downturn, there were she is not prepared to support a commitment 694,000 people out of work. When Labor given by Mr Howard who said, ‘We are going were booted out of office, there were 766,000 to maintain the expenditure on labour market people out of work, 10 per cent more than programs in real terms.’ when they arrived. Under Labor, Australia Senator VANSTONE—There is a tempta- had the highest level of unemployment since tion simply to repeat in detail the answer I the Depression. At its peak in September have just given you, but let me give it to you 1993, 947,000 persons were unemployed. The in simple form and perhaps I will try to speak unemployment rate was literally stuck at a bit more slowly and you might understand. about 11 per cent, or close to it. As a rate that The policy commitments are clear. They are lasted over a year, it is the highest since the in the policy documents released last election Depression. That is only the tip of the ice- time. The next major policy statement is the berg. budget. Watch that space in the labour market Perhaps I should understand why senators program area for a dramatic simplification. opposite have not chosen to ask a question That simplification will make it much easier about this and why I should not have expect- for a whole range of people, the most import- ed a question on it. It is because the picture ant of whom are those people who have been is so grim. Under Labor, the number of tossed on the unemployment heap in the long unemployed increased dramatically. On top of term by the inefficient policies of the previous the number of those unemployed are those government. who want to work longer hours but who are Unemployment forced to work part time, and the number of people who are so discouraged by looking for Senator ABETZ—My question is also work and not being able to get it that they addressed to the Minister for Employment, simply no longer bother to look for work. Education, Training and Youth Affairs. The most recent figures show that there are Opposition senators interjecting— over half a million people who, if they could Senator ABETZ—Mr President, can I ask work longer hours, would, and about 150,000 the opposition to be quiet while I am asking persons who are so discouraged that they have this because I want to quote their leader who, stopped looking for work. When you add all in parliament on 18 August 1993, said: that up, you come to about 1½ million people What we are going to live with, and what they are who either want to work and cannot get work living with, is going to be a very lengthy period of or would be doing more if they had the unemployment for some people. opportunity. When you add all of that to- What is the legacy that Labor left Australia in gether, it shows that 15 per cent of Australia’s Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 523 workers, or would-be workers, have been basis in every quarter since March 1995. Why prevented either from working or from work- did you mislead the Senate, or why did you ing as long as they would like, because of get it so wrong? Labor’s policies. Senator SHORT—The statement I made Let me shift briefly to the long-term unem- last week was correct. The figure that I ployed. Working Nation was supposed to be quoted was a five-year high for inflation and, the answer to the problems of the long-term of course, I stand by that, just as the inflation unemployed but Labor was only ever interest- rate throughout Labor’s whole period of office ed in manipulating the statistics. That means was way out of line with our major trading putting long-term unemployed people on partners. labour market programs for a sufficient period of time so that, when they go back into the Senator Schacht—Produce the figures. ranks of the unemployed, they are considered Senator SHORT—For the 13 years that to be short-term unemployed. The figures Labor was in power we had an average clearly bear that out. compound growth rate in the CPI, the con- In the past nine months, the decline in long- sumer price index, of 7.2 per cent. Do you term unemployed of 18,500 has been more know what the average figure was for the than compensated for by the increase of major industrial nations—the G7? It was 3.8 29,000 in the short-term unemployed. Youth per cent. What we saw, right through Labor’s unemployment was 26.3 per cent when Labor period in office—given the cycles of econom- got into government; 27.4 per cent when they ic moves—was an average rate of inflation in left—not a very good record. That is not this country almost twice as high as it was in something that members opposite can have our major trading partners. That of course is any pride in whatsoever. The bottom line is one of the reasons why, as a result of the this: the mess that Labor created will not be accord—we will come do this in the MPI fixed quickly. We will put in place policies to later on today—and Labor’s so-called wages create real jobs. The people who have fallen policy, we had an inflation rate out of line out of the work force will want to come back with that of the rest of the world. and the people who want to work longer We therefore had monstrous increases in hours will be able to. That means that the our current account deficit. We had a growth future, for the moment, is a very difficult of foreign debt—indebtedness to the rest of scenario. (Time expired) the world, going into hock to the rest of the Senator Faulkner—On a point of order, world—by an eight-fold increase in that Mr President, could you ask Senator Vanstone period alone. As Senator Vanstone has just to table the document from which she read said, that was accompanied by unemployment every single word in answer to the question that peaked at a million and is still stuck at without notice from Senator Abetz? three-quarters of a million. All of those are The PRESIDENT—That’s up to Senator the legacies that your party, the Labor Party, Vanstone. left the incoming government. One of those legacies remains a rate of inflation, as I said, Economy that is one of the highest, still, in the indus- Senator WHEELWRIGHT—My question trialised world. The figure I gave you last is to Senator Short, Assistant Treasurer and week is quite correct. Minister representing the Minister for Fi- Senator WHEELWRIGHT—Minister, you nance. Minister, I refer to your statement in really need somebody better to write your the Senate on Thursday, 2 May in which you briefs. There is absolutely no way you could said that inflation was at a five-year high. I possibly quote any figure which comes up further refer you to the March quarter ABS with the answer you suggested. You might release of 24 April, which shows inflation not have even mentioned the underlying rate, but only falling from 5.1 per cent to 3.7 per cent that has been falling on a quarterly basis since on an annual basis, but falling on a quarterly 524 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

September 1995. If you had ever read a CPI The PRESIDENT—The point of order is release—and clearly you haven’t—you would not about Senator Wheelwright, it is about see that every component has been falling Senator Short. There is no point of order, but over the period I mentioned. In fact, Minister, we would do better without the personal there are even pictures in the document if you attacks from both sides. cannot read it. You have clearly not looked at those. What are you going to do to con- Senator SHORT—I am sorry, Mr Presi- tinue— dent, I allowed myself to be provoked tempo- rarily and, I would think, with justification. Senator Hill—I rise on a point of order. Senator Wheelwright was giving a speech. He Senator Vanstone—As Senator Gareth finally got to his supplementary question— Evans often did. The PRESIDENT—Have you completed Senator SHORT—As Senator Gareth your question? Evans often did, yes. I cannot add anything more specific to the answer I already gave Senator WHEELWRIGHT—For the bene- you because the answer was quite specific. fit of Senator Hill, my question is: what are The figure I quoted was the highest rate of you going to do to maintain the existing inflation in five years. (Time expired) underlying trend of falling inflation? Public Service Senator SHORT—I hope that the people that place failed senators in jobs, after they Senator SHERRY—My question is to— lose, read this Hansard record. I will tell you, Senator Kemp—Who’s on the questions Senator Wheelwright, you are never going to committee? get a job in the business or financial sector Senator SHERRY—No-one rose from your because you are economically illiterate. side! My question is to the Assistant Treasur- Senator Bolkus—Mr President, I have two er representing the Minister for Finance. points of order. Senator Wheelwright has Given the large-scale redundancies planned by asked a very precise and concise question, to the Commonwealth government, what will the which he would normally expect an answer average cost per capita be for redundancies from Senator Short. Senator Short is not and superannuation payouts? How will this be answering the question. Secondly, the level of funded? abuse coming from Senator Short is some- Senator SHORT—I am not sure how often thing which is quite inappropriate in response we have to repeat this on this side for the to the question. benefit of Senator Sherry and his colleagues. Senator Alston—Mr President, I do not The fact is that the budget, as we have said know how Senator Bolkus can keep a straight time and again, will be delivered on budget face on that point of order. The fact is that, if night. It will not be delivered beforehand. The you had looked at that performance over issues on which Senator Sherry has raised there, you would have noticed that Senator questions are matters that will be resolved in Wheelwright was almost hysterical. He was the budget context and I am afraid you will as abusive as anyone I have seen in recent just have to wait until then. years. If ever there was a provocative attempt We will not be engaging in the charades at a swan song, it was that. You ought to very that Senator Sherry and his government went carefully consider any such suggestion that a on with during their periods in office where response that was not even of the same order they deceived the Australian people on every of magnitude as Senator Wheelwright’s highly occasion. They finished up bequeathing a provocative and impertinent performance legacy to Australia and to the incoming could possibly constitute the basis for uphold- government of a black hole of $8 billion. The ing a point of order. Your remarks ought to details of the fiscal responsibility that we will be directed to Senator Wheelwright and not be bringing will be announced on budget to Senator Short. night. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 525

Senator SHERRY—Mr President, I ask a indentations which will only get bigger with supplementary question. Does Senator Short every flood. mean to tell the Senate that he does not have Senator Bob Collins—You should have it any advice from Finance and Treasury on the right up there on your priority list. average cost of redundancy and superannua- tion payouts when his government is about to Senator HILL—I am pleased that you are embark on the largest-scale redundancies in confirming the problem. Your past minister the public sector in this country’s history? Do did not seem to recognise it. The problem you mean to tell us you do not know what the occurs along a stretch of the river from cost will be? Let me give you some idea. If Goondiwindi to Wilcannia. the average cost of superannuation payout is Mr Allan Amos of the New South Wales between $50,000 and $100,000 per head and Department of Land and Water Conservation if the number of redundancies is between estimated that one single bank collapse he 10,000 and 20,000 persons, won’t the cost be examined would have dumped more than 800 between half a billion dollars and $2 billion? tonnes of soil into the river. Even more How will you fund that cost? worrying are indications that even larger— Senator SHORT—Senator Sherry can try 150 metre—stretches of riverbank are starting and try and try again. The answer I give him to collapse, raising concerns that they too will in response to his supplementary question is soon fall into the river. identical to the one I have already given him. In fact, the situation is so serious that the That is, they are details and matters that will New South Wales government has ordered an be announced in the budget. The budget is urgent scientific inquiry into the effects and being brought down on 20 August and so causes of the erosion. Scientists fear that the Senator Sherry will have to wait until then, I sediments released from these bank collapses am afraid. will alter forever river channel habitat and biodiversity. No-one should play down the Darling River gravity of the situation facing the residents Senator McGAURAN—My question is and indeed the biodiversity dependent on the directed to the Minister for the Environment continued health of the Darling River. and Leader of the Government in the Senate. It was precisely to eliminate such environ- Is it true that the Darling River is facing an mental crises as this that at the last election ecological crisis following extensive riverbank the coalition put down its Murray-Darling collapses along 2,000 kilometres of water- initiative—its commitment to apply $163 way? million over five years towards a Murray- Senator HILL—Thank you, Mr Presi- Darling initiative, to accelerate remedial dent— programs and overcome crises such as this. The availability of those funds is dependent Senator Faulkner—Are you going to read upon the sale of one-third of Telstra—a sale every word of it too? that would be necessary to establish a capital Senator HILL—I am going to advise the fund from which we can start the process of chamber of exactly what we are going to do remediation. I would have thought that all about it. It is unfortunately true that one of honourable senators would applaud that, Australia’s major rivers, the Darling, having would be urging that upon the government just recovered from the world’s largest blue- and would welcome the fact that we have green algae outbreak is facing yet another found a way to fund what the ALP was not ecological crisis. able to fund. The thought that these parties in here—the ALP, the Democrats and the Since February, sections of riverbank larger Greens—are going to conspire to block our than this very chamber have eroded into the capacity to apply this remedial action is quite main channel, killing thousands of river red disgraceful. There is still time for a reconsid- gums, and leaving many hundreds of bay-like eration on the other side of the chamber. 526 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Senator Bolkus—This is going to backfire will not be doing. We on this side of the on you, Robert. chamber will never get up and lie our way Senator HILL—This will not backfire on into an election victory as you did in 1993 by us. The work needs to be done. We need to promising l-a-w law tax cuts of huge amounts be funded to do the job and you are going to and then the day after the election break those block the funding. The Australian Demo- promises. You did the same thing with a crats—so committed to the environment— whole range of sales tax and other indirect have come out in advance and said, ‘We will taxes. I repeat: the commitment that the block it’; the Greens have come out in ad- coalition gave during the election was that vance and said, ‘We will block it’; and of there will be no new taxes and no increases course the ALP have said they will block it in existing taxes. That commitment stands. as well. The Democrats say, ‘Fund it from Sale of Telstra other sources of income.’ ‘Put up taxes’ is Senator BOURNE—My question is direct- always their answer. The ALP’s answer is ed to the Minister for Communications and always the same—put it on the hock. We do the Arts. I refer to his commitment to British not have that capacity. We have to raise the Telecom as a role model for Telstra and in capital base to do it. We have demonstrated particular to his answer to Senator Panizza’s how it can be done responsibly and sensibly fascinating question yesterday. Does the and it is a disgrace that it is going to be minister agree with the assessment by the blocked by those on the other side. British National Consumer Council that the trends on charges for telephone services, Taxation important to domestic customers, have risen over the years relative to the charges for Senator McKIERNAN—My question is services used mainly by business customers? directed to the Assistant Treasurer and Does he share the National Consumer Minister representing the Minister for Fi- Council’s concern that between 1984 and nance. During the election campaign, the 1993 the cost of first time access for domestic Prime Minister gave a commitment not to customers rose by over 61 per cent and that introduce new taxes or to increase existing domestic phone rentals rose by over 20 per taxes. For the purposes of this undertaking, cent in real terms? Is it not the case that local what does the government regard as falling price reductions since 1993 in Britain have within the definition of a tax? For example, come not from competition, not from efficien- is a tariff a tax? Is a levy a tax? Would reduc- cy but from angry consumer groups lobbying ing a rebate be considered a tax increase? Oftel to develop some backbone and force Senator SHORT—During the election price reductions by regulation? campaign the coalition gave a commitment to Senator ALSTON—That is an extraordi- introduce no new taxes and no increases in nary proposition. What you are saying is that existing taxes. That commitment remains in the regulator has not worked and the regulator its entirety. had to be forced by public pressure. Senator Kernot—Because privatisation Senator McKIERNAN—Mr President, I didn’t deliver what you said it would. ask a supplementary question. I thought the question was rather simple. I did recognise in Senator ALSTON—Yet what we had asking that question that a commitment was yesterday from Senator Kernot was the equal- given that there would be no new taxes and ly extraordinary proposition that it was not no increases in existing taxes. What I am privatisation that had delivered the goods but asking for is a definition of what you consider rather regulation. You cannot have it both to be a tax. Is a tariff or a levy a tax? Would ways. You cannot say that, on the one hand, a reduction in a rebate be considered a tax? regulation has done the job and then say, ‘Actually regulation has failed too and it’s Senator SHORT—I will tell you what we consumers.’ You cannot keep moving the goalposts. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 527

If you want to know a bit about what come about in the next couple of months. The consumers say in the UK, you should take UK now has fully-fledged competition, and it notice of what Mr Colin Meek, a senior has in excess of 130 service providers. In researcher with the UK Consumers’ Associa- other words, there are people who will come tion who was in Australia recently, had to in for arbitrage, who will force down on a re- say. He was critical of the UK experience. He selling basis the real price that is charged to was complimentary of the safeguards that we consumers. intended for Australian consumers. In other We are on the verge of very significant words, even someone from a consumer competition in this country, unlike the UK at group—and of course they always want more, a comparable stage. In fact, BT had less than and they always quite rightly are watchdogs 10 per cent of the market after 10 years. for the consumers, and they are participants Optus is probably closer to 20 per cent al- in the advocacy process, and sometimes they ready. On top of that, you want Telstra to go a bit over the top—a bloke in your camp, compete with one hand behind its back. In coming out here, critical of the UK, nonethe- other words, you are not prepared to allow it less said that the safeguards we propose to put to introduce the efficiencies which Frank in place are absolutely first class. What is the Blount says are required in any event— relevance of the UK experience when you have consumer organisations actually credit- Senator Kernot—Sixty-thousand jobs. ing us with having the best consumer regime Senator ALSTON—Not because of privati- in the world? sation. I will deal with Senator Kernot’s point for Senator Kernot—How many thousand jobs a moment. Senator Kernot was suggesting that is it? somehow it was regulation and not privatis- ation. I will quote Sir Bryan Carsberg, a Senator ALSTON—I thought you were former Director-General of Communications parroting that line again. As if this is the one in the UK—in other words, the first person to sector of the community that ought to be run Oftel. Sir Bryan Carsberg has been out quarantined from job losses. As you well here on a number of occasions—I think most know, everyone else—(Time expired) recently for the 1995 Monash University Senator BOURNE—It is obvious why Syme distinguished visitor lecture. Sir Bryan Senator Alston gets his own way: it is the Carsberg said: charm, I think. Senator Alston, I am using Telecommunications are far better than they were three documents here: British Oftel’s The before privatisation; in terms of value for money, Regulation of BT Prices; British National things are incomparably better for consumers. Consumer Council’s Paying the Price; and Why do you keep running this ideological NUS International’s Annual Telecoms Survey. campaign? I gave you figures yesterday which All of these documents say the opposite to demonstrated beyond doubt that there have what you are telling me. Will you please table been enormous consumer benefits in the UK the documents you are using to back up your in terms of lower prices and better quality of arguments, which are the opposite to what service. This is in a country which, until these say. about four years ago, had a cosy duopoly as Senator ALSTON—I do not know what a result of Mercury choosing only very you are talking about in terms of the NUS selectively, as you should know, not to offer survey. I told you that the preceding one had competition and competitive services across Australia with the highest local call charges the board but to simply target the CBD—the in the world. What you now tell me is we high value business customers, in other words. have only the third highest in the world. That They did not have real competition. We are is because the Netherlands— going to have it in this country very shortly. Senator Bob Collins—Have you had a Optus is saying they will reduce local call look at the call size? charges by up to 40 per cent. That is likely to 528 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Senator ALSTON—Telstra does not run capital fund which could be reinvested in that argument, Bob. I do not know why you another capital asset: we would sell a third of do. They say that is outdated methodology. Telstra, a capital asset, and reinvest it in So what you are saying is that, because we another capital asset, the environment. rank as only the third highest in local call— Senator Chamarette—Mr President, I raise Opposition members interjecting— a point of order. I asked the minister a specif- ic question about how the government intends Senator ALSTON—Is that right or not? to fulfil its commitment on the environment— We now rank third highest in local call not a dorothy dixer so he could rattle on charges in the world not because we have got about the privatisation of Telstra. I would like any more efficient in the last quarter but an answer. He has already had his dorothy because the Netherlands and Belgium have dixer for today. upped their prices. In other words, we are just as inefficient as we ever were. The PRESIDENT—The two are linked, so I do not think there is a point of relevance. Senator Kernot somehow wants to say that But I ask the minister to address the specific this is the only sector of the Australian econ- question in the course of his answer. omy that ought to be quarantined from job losses. Frank Blount is saying there is a very Senator HILL—That is the point that I am significant need to get this company into trying to make, Mr President. We said that the shape. If you want to get that 20 per cent fund was dependent upon the sale of a third price reduction over the next few years, you of Telstra. If those opposite block the sale, we will allow Telstra to operate with both hands will not have the opportunity to invest $1 in front of its body. billion dollars in the environment. We would then not have the money to put into the Senator Bourne—Table the documents. Murray-Darling program. The PRESIDENT—Order! The minister’s Senator Bob Collins—But you said it’s a time has expired. Minister, you have been crisis, Robert, and it is. asked whether you will table those docu- ments. Senator HILL—It is a crisis. We will not have the money to accelerate the Murray- Senator ALSTON—I won’t. Darling program. We will not have the money Sale of Telstra for the revegetation programs. We will not have the money for the coasts and oceans Senator CHAMARETTE—My question is programs. We spelled it all out. It was there directed to the Minister for the Environment. for all Australians to see. That is why Aus- I ask: what does the government intend to do tralians want us to get on with the job of to implement its initiatives on the environ- implementing that program. ment when it fails to get its Telstra sale through the parliament? Senator Bob Collins—What about Land- care? Senator HILL—I think that suddenly the penny is dropping and the Greens are starting Senator HILL—Existing programs will to wake up to the consequences. The conse- continue. You see, this was additional money quence is that a $1 billion fund will not be because the need is so great, but we had to established—a fund that would be totally used get it from somewhere. As I said in answer to for reinvestment in Australia’s environment. an earlier question, if Labor needed money That is the message that we have been trying their answer would have been, according to to give you. past practices, to put it on the never-never, and so the debt would increase. The Austral- We know that what we want to do is what ian Democrats, of course, constantly say to the Labor Party wanted to do, but it did not put up taxes. have a way of funding it. What we discovered was a way in which we could establish for the We do not see that as a sensible option in first time for the benefit of all Australians a the current circumstances. We have found a Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 529 way in which we can fund these initiatives. I Women in Federal Parliament welcome the question because it gives me a second chance to reiterate how important this Senator MICHAEL BAUME—My ques- fund is for the benefit of all Australians. It tion without notice is addressed to the also gives me the opportunity, for Senator Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Chamarette’s benefit, to say once again that Status of Women. Given that the preselection supporting this fund is one of her last oppor- for the seat of Blaxland is the first real test of tunities in the Senate to demonstrate her leadership for the new parliamentary Labor commitment to the environment, but if she leader, Mr Kim Beazley, providing him with votes this down, she can hang her head in a golden opportunity to prove his commitment shame. to Labor’s 1994 resolution to increase the number of women in parliament, and recog- Senator CHAMARETTE—In his answer nising there was no hesitation in intervening to a question from Senator O’Chee last week, to install Mr Martin Ferguson as Labor’s MP the minister referred to the urgency of ad- in Batman, what conclusion can Australians dressing the salinity and other damage done draw about his leadership and his commit- to Australia’s native vegetation over past ment, and that of the Labor Party, to its years. Senator Hill said that it would be a women’s quota if he does not intervene to national catastrophe if the opportunity is lost ensure a woman is preselected for the seat of by the failure to privatise one-third of Telstra. Blaxland? How does this compare with the Can we deduce from this answer that the government’s approach to increasing the role government will do nothing more to imple- of women in politics? ment its environment package if it cannot sell Senator Faulkner—Mr President, I raise a Telstra? point of order. It is the same as the one that Senator HILL—The government will not was made many times during the last parlia- find the billion dollars from another source, ment. This clearly is not within the responsi- if that is what the question is asking. The bility of Senator Newman. The matter that has environment will be the loser and it will be been raised in this question by Senator Baume your fault. You have determined, with the is a matter clearly for the internal processes Labor Party and the Australian Democrats, to of the Labor Party. Mr President, I ask you, vote down this funding package so that we do on the basis of relevance, to rule the question not have the opportunity to spend the money out of order. on the environment. Senator Alston—On the point of order, I concede how important the expenditure is, unfortunately Senator Faulkner rose before he as it is with many other important areas of had heard the last part of the question, which public expenditure—health, social security specifically asked, ‘How did the ALP’s ap- and education, which we heard a lot about proach compare with the government’s atti- yesterday. Is the honourable senator saying tude to increasing the number of women in that we should cut health to pay for this? Is the parliament?’ That is very much a policy she saying that we should cut education to issue which is within Senator Newman’s pay for it? Is she saying that we should cut responsibility. As you have ruled repeatedly, social security benefits to pay for it? We part of that question very much involves a know what the position of the Democrats is: comparison of the alternatives. Of course, in just put taxes up again. That is what they a political forum we are entitled to draw those always say. They even urged the previous sorts of comparisons. If we were not, we government to break their promise and put up would not have question time in this place. taxes—and the previous Labor government Senator MICHAEL BAUME—On the accepted that readily. We are not going down point of order, I will give you the exact words that path. We have either got to pay for it out of the question. Senator Alston conveyed the of existing expenditure or find a new source, impression. The exact words of the question and we have found it. (Time expired) were, ‘How does this compare with the government’s approach to increasing the role 530 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 of women in politics?’ That is a clear ques- a fantastic symbol. Mrs Kirner and Senator tion relating to government policy. Reynolds said that. Senator Reynolds also The PRESIDENT—The link is tenuous, said that, if a woman is not chosen for Blax- but it is there. land, it will send a negative message; it will be embarrassing and it will be very disillu- Senator NEWMAN—The point of order sioning and very disappointing. from the Labor Party does rather highlight the fact that they do not have much of an under- Mr President, guess what the Labor Party standing about the importance of the minister are doing instead of putting a woman in for the status of women and about the role of Blaxland? They are stacking the branches in policy making to achieve more women in the Blaxland so a man will get in—not a women, federal parliament. We have seen the results a man. That is what they are on about. So of that failure of understanding and commit- much for their commitment. If there ever was ment by the opposition by the fact that they a test of Mr Beazley’s leadership, this is it, have now ended up with only two per cent of here and now. He is showing every sign of their members in the House of Representa- wimping out. We are not going to get a tives as women. That is, of course, nowhere woman in Blaxland if Mr Beazley does not near—and will not go anywhere near—their pull his finger out. quota system, which is to achieve 35 per cent The argument at the moment is that it has of women by the year 2002. to be a local. That is twaddle. You did not By comparison, the government very seri- need a local when you put Martin Ferguson ously went about an exercise of trying to into Batman. What about talented women like encourage women of merit by giving them Mary Easson? What about Kay Griffin? Are assistance to get into parliament and by not they not going to get a fair go in Blaxland? demeaning them by way of quotas. We have What does Senator Reynolds have to say? I already shown the results. Thirteen per cent am sure she is as concerned as the rest of the of our members in the House of Representa- women in Australia that the Labor Party is tives are women and we will go on to greater not doing better. ‘Brothers, we want a partner- things because we are building on a sound ship,’ says Senator Reynolds. I ask brother foundation. Beazley: what is he going to do? I remember Senator Mackay at the Labor Social Welfare conference in Hobart. She proclaimed it a Senator LUNDY—My question is directed great day when they produced this quota to the Minister for Social Security. You said policy. Well, you must feel it is sackcloth and on radio on 26 April that the Prime Minister ashes now, Senator, with the result. As I said, had given a commitment that the poor and Labor have got a long way to go to meet their needy in our community will be protected. quota commitment. In fact, unless many of When asked what you meant by ‘poor and the present male Labor members of the House needy’ you replied, ‘Well, I think most of us stand down and allow women to take their understand what is meant by that.’ I ask: place, it will be well nigh impossible for could the minister please explain to the Labor to meet their quota aim. If they are to Senate what she and Mr Howard mean by keep one of their sacred and most publicised ‘poor and needy’? promises to Australian women, they have to Senator NEWMAN—I am delighted to start now, and that means selecting a woman answer the question, which comes from a new for Blaxland. If they do not do that, they will senator. She was not in this chamber during be sending a message to the women of Aus- the last 13 years when those people were tralia that their commitment to increase made poor and disadvantaged by the Labor women’s representation is not worth a row of government. Those are the people we are now beans. left to look after. We will have compassion Senator Reynolds said recently that there is for the needy and the disadvantaged whom a principle at stake here, that there would be you have caused to be needy and disadvan- Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 531 taged. The Labor Party should hang its head small business under Labor and we pledged in shame. to do all that we could to tackle those prob- Senator LUNDY—Given that you have lems. One of those problems was the size of reiterated this commitment to the poor and Labor’s provisional tax uplift factor, which needy, can you please define what you mean Senator Chapman has referred to. As we all by ‘poor and needy’ in that context? know, if the uplift factor is set too high, then Senator NEWMAN—Mr President— small business—and farmers, self-funded retirees and all the other provisional taxpay- Senator Vanstone—‘Poor’ means ‘not ers—will be forced to overpay until such time rich,’ ‘needy’ means ‘in need’. as they receive a credit, or repayment or Senator NEWMAN—I am indebted to my lodge a variation. colleague Senator Amanda Vanstone, who Senator Cook—And if it is too low? points out that ‘poor’ is the opposite of ‘rich’ and ‘needy’ is the opposite of, what was it, Senator SHORT—This imposes a heavy Senator? cashflow burden on them. Seeking profession- Opposition senators interjecting— al advice on lodging a variation costs taxpay- ers additional money. If their variation under- Senator NEWMAN—It is not a joke. It is states actual income, Senator Cook, they may a serious matter. I am glad Senator Lundy is face penalties. The present government made concerned about the matter. I am concerned, a commitment to reduce Labor’s uplift factor too. I know who are the poor and needy and from eight per cent to six per cent, a rate that they are my responsibility to look after. more in line with nominal growth in the I am the one who has to make sure that they economy. are looked after. I am pleased to advise Senator Chapman Taxation and the Senate that the government will be Senator CHAPMAN—My question is introducing legislation tomorrow that will be directed to the Assistant Treasurer. Is the delivering on that commitment to small minister aware of the crushing cashflow business. The uplift factor will be set at six burden faced by thousands of small businesses per cent for the 1996-97 income year. That which was imposed by the former Labor will keep small business profits where they government by setting the provisional tax generate real benefit and it will assist all other uplift factor at eight per cent for the 1995-96 provisional taxpayers as well. By reducing the income year, an issue highlighted in the uplift factor, we will return hard-earned Senate Economics References Committee business funds to where they should be—that report on small business taxation titled A is, working for small business rather than Question of Balance? Given that the govern- sitting in the Taxation Office. That will ment’s small business policy stated that benefit more than one million provisional Australia’s small and medium businesses are taxpayers. the backbone of the economy and one of the The government is committed to the future main sources of economic prosperity, can you and the prosperity of small business. As advise whether the government has any plans Senator Chapman said in his question, the to reduce this impost on small business? If so, coalition sees small business as the very back- when will they commence? bone of the economy and the prosperity of Senator SHORT—I thank Senator Chap- small business means more jobs. man for his question. May I take this oppor- tunity to congratulate him on his very long The coalition is committed to getting gov- and continuing interest in the wellbeing of ernment off the back of small business. Our small business. It is an extremely important package of policies, including tax, industrial issue for many Australians. relations and deregulation, will be key ele- ments in achieving this. The delivery of the During the election campaign the coalition reduction in the uplift factor comes on top of placed great emphasis on the problems facing 532 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Monday’s announcement by the Prime Minis- answer to this or don’t you? As with all ter of the membership of the small business government programs, funding for next year deregulation task force, which will have six is in a budget context—and of course I will months to report on revenue neutral measures not be drawn into speculation on a daily basis which can reduce the burden of paperwork on budget outcomes on this or anything else. and compliance costs on small business by 50 per cent during our first term in government. But let me say to Senator Reynolds that the government is committed to maintaining and Labor’s recession broke the back of many further enhancing Australia’s unique and small businesses. Their overregulation, em- enriching cultural diversity within the frame- ployment disincentives and unreasonable tax work of national unity. The importance of burdens have effectively stalled small busi- multicultural issues has been clearly recog- ness recovery. Our changes to the provisional nised by being included in the title of Mr tax uplift factor, along with the announcement Ruddock’s portfolio. He is Australia’s first of the composition of the small business minister for multicultural affairs. In appoint- deregulation task force, are significant steps ing him, the Prime Minister said that his, Mr along the way towards getting small business Ruddock’s, brief in relation to multicultural going again. affairs was to ensure that they are a distinc- Office of Multicultural Affairs tive and unifying force in Australia. By transferring multicultural affairs to the Senator REYNOLDS—My question is immigration portfolio, we have opened up directed to the Minister representing the new opportunities for furthering the multicul- Minister for Immigration and Multicultural tural agenda by creating new synergies, by Affairs. Minister, before the election you better coordination of functions and by pro- promised that the Office of Multicultural viding greater opportunities to share know- Affairs, OMA, would not be abolished. Why ledge and expertise. The decision by the is it then that we now find not only that on government will enhance the multicultural the personal, purely administrative decision of function and give it the priority it deserves. the Prime Minister has OMA been moved Of course, if you look at the history of this from the Prime Minister’s department, but subject, you find that some of the staff and also it has been moved to the Department of functions— Multicultural Affairs, has been merged within the settlement section of that department, has Senator Bolkus—Why did you mislead had its funding reduced from nearly $5 them all in Adelaide? Why did you mislead million this year to $600,000 for 1996-97 and them all in Melbourne? has no funding transferred for the out years? Senator SHORT—Senator Bolkus is the Given that it was such a personal commit- person who emasculated the Office of Multi- ment—and, Minister, I know of your personal cultural Affairs last year. He did that by commitment to OMA in the past—why have moving a huge chunk of the staff and the you allowed the Prime Minister to go against functions of the Office of Multicultural your commitment and your public statement? Affairs to the then Department of Immigration and Ethnic Affairs under his party’s govern- Senator SHORT—I thank Senator Rey- ment last year. The move was started under nolds for her question. It is an important a Labor government, so I find it quite extra- question. First of all, on the question of ordinary that the opposition is criticising funding, Senator Reynolds, let me say that something that it had already condoned. OMA has funding for the current year, as with all— Coalition governments, of course, have a very long commitment to multiculturalism. It Senator West—She said that! was a coalition government under Malcolm Senator Robert Ray—That’s a big help! Fraser that in November 1979 established the Australian Institute of Multicultural Affairs; Senator SHORT—Do you want to hear the and it was a Labor government in 1986 that Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 533 abolished the Australian Institute of Multicul- us get the record straight. Is it not true, tural Affairs and left the government without Minister, that in opposition the coalition twice any multicultural function at all. It was only voted against an identical proposal when it after considerable community pressure that the was put into the chamber by the Democrats? then Labor government later agreed to estab- If your commitment to small business is so lish OMA in March 1987. So, as I say, I find important, if this policy is so important, why it curious indeed that, with its history of have you waited so long to assist small abolishing the multicultural function of business? government, the opposition would even dare to raise this matter. Senator SHORT—It was our problem that we were in opposition for 13 years, Senator Senator REYNOLDS—Mr President, I ask Kernot, but it was not exactly our wish. Had a supplementary question. Minister, the issue you been prepared to cooperate a little more is that the Office of Multicultural Affairs was with the coalition in opposition you may well in the Prime Minister’s department; it was have had a good government on this side of central; it could influence decision making the chamber a lot earlier. You would not have across portfolios. You have marginalised the had the situation that we had for 13 years of Office of Multicultural Affairs. How can you a Labor government that absolutely hated now guarantee maintaining a commitment to small business and did everything in its power access and equity policy development, when to crush small business. the Office of Multicultural Affairs has been I regret that I have to say to you, Senator marginalised and obviously chopped off at the Kernot, that your party was instrumental over knees in terms of funding? many of those years in aiding and abetting Senator SHORT—Senator Reynolds is those decisions by the then government which totally incorrect in her assumption that multi- crushed small business. Indeed, many of your cultural affairs has been marginalised. Indeed, own big-spending and big-taxing policies quite the contrary. Multicultural affairs will would have had an enormous additional maintain its advisory role, and it will now impact of the most detrimental nature on have greater support through the resources small business. I find it interesting to have a overall of the Department of Immigration and question from the leader of a party that aided Multicultural Affairs and abetted the then government to crush It is the first department of multicultural small business so much over the last 13 years. affairs ever in Australia’s history. Never Senator KERNOT—No more fudging, before have we had a department of multicul- Senator Short. Is it not true that you had the tural affairs. We have it now under the How- numbers, with our support, to support our ard government. Because it is within the initiative to reduce the provisional tax uplift resources of the Department of Immigration factor? Is it not true that you voted it down? and Multicultural Affairs, that multicultural Senator SHORT—And is it not true that affairs role will have greater support to for the last 13 years we sought the support of provide input to government decision making. the Australian Democrats to produce econom- What we have done by transferring the func- ic policies which would have been of enor- tion into the Department of Immigration and mous benefit to small business? The Austral- Multicultural Affairs—as I said before to ian Democrats is a party with policies of high Senator Reynolds—is create new synergies taxing and high spending. You wanted to put and better coordination of functions and a up fuel by a squillion. You wanted to put up better role for it. (Time expired) a whole range of taxes, including wine taxes. Taxation You name it, you wanted to tax it. Senator KERNOT—My question is direct- Senator Bell—Mr President, I raise a point ed to the Assistant Treasurer. Minister, I was of order. Quite simply, the question asked for very pleased to hear your previous announce- a yes or no answer. It did not ask for a ment on provisional tax uplift factor. But let diatribe to cover up the guilt that he feels. I 534 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 ask that the minister answer the question, If we look at the consumer price index ABS please. release, every detail of the index shows that The PRESIDENT—The question was a inflation has been falling. It is in a firm fairly direct one, Senator Short. I wish you underlying downward trend. would get to the point. Every subgroup of the index is falling. If Senator SHORT—What I am trying to get we look at food, clothing, housing, household through to the Democrats—and it is very, equipment and operation, transportation, very difficult—is that you have to look at the tobacco and alcohol we see that all of those total context of policies and the thing that you subgroups are falling. In fact, there are only failed to do was that. (Time expired) two categories out of the whole group which are showing any uptick at all—and they are Senator Hill—Mr President, I ask that very minor—and that is in the areas of health further questions be placed on the Notice and personal care and recreation and educa- Paper. tion. Economy The numbers are unambiguous. As I tried Senator WHEELWRIGHT (New South to point out to the minister—which he studi- Wales) (3.04 p.m.)—I move: ously ignored—he should read this release. I That the Senate take note of the answer given by suggest that he has probably never bothered the Assistant Treasurer (Senator Short), to a to read this release. There are actually pic- question without notice asked by Senator Wheel- tures in it. Every subgroup is pictured. One wright today, relating to inflation. can see by looking at it, without even reading I must say it was an extraordinary perform- the table, that the trend with inflation is ance by Senator Short during question time downwards. today. This was an opportunity for a minister One would have thought that the minister to answer a question which was put in fairly might have made some mention of the treas- plain terms. Before the minister even stood up ury underlying rate, which peaked in the it was pretty clear that he had no clothes to March quarter. However, if we look at the wear at all. I would have thought that it is an quarterly figure we see that it, too, has been admission of defeat and an admission of a falling. It has been falling since September very weak and a very embattled minister who 1995. We had 1.2 per cent in September, 0.7 has to stick around for taking note after he is per cent in December 1995 and 0.4 per cent supposed to have answered questions in in March 1996. As I said, anything with any question time. credibility in economics demonstrates that inflation is on a downward track. Question time provides an ample opportuni- ty for any minister to answer questions. To When Senator Short was in opposition he stick around in the chamber to try and justify never bothered to read any of these releases. what was obviously a hopelessly inadequate It was certainly never reflected in any of the answer deprives not only the opposition but speeches he made to the Senate that he had also his own backbench of the opportunity to ever read any of them. All he could do was debate matters in this period of taking note. keep coming on with the same old mantra of I believe that is an admission of defeat in ‘inflation is high’, ‘inflation is high’, ‘infla- itself. tion is high’. Clearly inflation is not high. Anyone reporting the releases put out by the Nevertheless, the answer to my question Australian Bureau of Statistics, the Treasury, was perfectly clear. By any number that any or anyone else, could clearly see that inflation reasonable economist, or anyone who can is falling and will continue to fall. spell ‘economics’, could choose we can see that inflation is falling. It has been falling The big question for this government is since the March quarter of last year. It has this: what is it going to do to maintain that been falling on more than a quarterly basis. downward trend? This is the great failure. The fact that Senator Short cannot read the CPI Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 535 release is one thing, and probably a bad to take note of the answer with a prepared admission to make, but the worst thing for the speech. What a put up! It really is a pity that government is that it has no policy at all in its this is being broadcast only on radio, because armoury for bringing that rate of inflation if it were being broadcast on TV the people down in the way that it is falling at the of Australia could see the absolute charade of moment. Senator Wheelwright’s question and his The previous government had an accord taking note of the answer. which had spectacular success in terms of It never ceases to amaze me that the Aus- containing the rate of inflation. It was a tralian Labor Party are willing to talk about wages policy which worked and which was economic matters, because their record on the envy of the rest of the world. There is economics is an absolute disgrace and de- absolutely nothing in their armoury to do bacle. They still do not realise or recognise anything about the single major cause of that the reason they are now sitting on the inflation now. They have been warned by the other side of this chamber is because of their Governor of the Reserve Bank: he has pointed incapacity to manage the finances of this out the fact that a wages policy is crucial to country. the future of inflation, and yet absolutely no Senator Wheelwright—On a point of response is coming from the government side. order: in order to assist the Senate, I am quite That is the matter which I believe is serious happy to table every document I have in front and that is the matter which I believe this of me. All I have in front of me is the facts; Senate should take note of. I have no prepared speech. If that assists Senator ABETZ (Tasmania)(3.08 p.m.)— Senator Abetz and speeds up the process of Can I genuinely suggest to Senator Wheel- the Senate, I am more than happy to assist. wright that he get some professional assist- ance from Dr Lawrence? The theatrical The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I you wish performance you put on in question time to table something, I suggest you do it later. today really does need some professional Senator ABETZ—After what we heard assistance. I suggest to you that Dr Lawrence from Senator Wheelwright, I am sure that might be able to assist you in forgetting that nothing that he could or would table would be performance. I am sure she could help you to of any assistance to the Senate. forget that performance. With any motor vehicle there are certain Senator Sherry—On a point of order: things that are good about that motor vehicle would Senator Abetz please speak through the and there are certain things that are not so chair? good. The Australian Labor Party is trying to Senator ABETZ—I am delighted to speak sell a used car to the Australian people by through you, Madam Deputy President. I am saying that the hub caps are shiny and that, more than willing to do that, because it is a therefore, the rest of the car is OK. Forget lot more enjoyable than having to face the about the blown gasket, forget about the fact opposition senators over there—the unfortu- that there is no tread on the tyres, forget the nate and bedraggled group that they are. fact that there are no brake pads and that the Senator Wheelwright tried to put on some economy is not working: they point to the sort of performance. We do not know why or shiny hub caps and try to build the car out of what happened to him, but we trust that he something like that. will see Dr Lawrence and that she will be Their case on the economy has been defeat- able to provide that professional assistance ed, not by our argument but by the decision which will help him to forget. Of course, I of our fellow Australians on 2 March. Senator direct that gratuitous advice to him through Wheelwright himself is a casualty of that you, Madam Deputy President. decision, because the people of his home state After that hysterical performance in ques- of New South Wales said, ‘We no longer tion time, Senator Wheelwright then moved want you to serve us as a senator as of 30 536 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

June 1996.’ I can understand Senator Wheel- Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy wright’s disappointment about that, but I have Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (3.15 got to say that, if the Labor Party is looking p.m.)—The going is really getting tough for at possibly reindorsing him in the future— Senator Short when he has to rely on Senator Senator Murphy—On a point of order: on Abetz to defend him. He did not mention the a number of occasions I have seen govern- word ‘inflation’ once. He gave 300 speeches ment senators, when they were on this side of last year and look where he ended up—at the the chamber, not being relevant when raising far end of the government benches. That is points of order during debates on motions to where you ended up, Senator Abetz. You did take note of answers. I think Senator Abetz not even talk about inflation. has been going now for nearly 3½ minutes Senator Abetz—Madam Deputy President, and he has not once addressed Senator Short’s I raise a point of order. I remind Senator answer to Senator Wheelwright. Not once has Sherry of his requirement to address his he mentioned the word ‘inflation’; rather he comments through you. has sought to conduct a personal attack on The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator Senator Wheelwright. I ask that you request Sherry, I am sure you won’t forget. Senator Abetz to get to the point or otherwise make him sit down. Senator SHERRY—I am sure I won’t forget that unforgettable speech by Senator The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I took it that Abetz, who sounded more like a used car his colourful analogy related to the question salesman than a person making a speech on but, in case I was wrong, perhaps you could economics. It is a sad sign for Senator Short be more direct with your comments, Senator when he has people like that defending him. Abetz. I come back to Senator Short’s contribution Senator ABETZ—You are very perceptive, to question time with respect to inflation and Madam Deputy President—unlike, of course, the other matters he was asked to answer my friend Senator Murphy, who, I am embar- today—and, indeed, questions he has been rassed to say, comes from Tasmania, who asked during the last week. On the issue of raised that frivolous point of order. inflation, Senator Short is either waffling on The reality is that the Australian economy in answers or is giving the wrong answers or is in a terrible state. Senator Wheelwright the wrong information. On this issue of thinks that, if he shouts loud enough and if he inflation, Senator Wheelwright is clearly right. puts on enough hysterical theatrical perform- The press knows that inflation is trending ances, he can somehow overcome the huge downwards in this country. Not just the press, deficiencies in the economy created by his but even your own party knows that inflation former leader from the same faction, Mr is trending down, as do the public. I quote the Keating, and by Mr Beazley. Of course, as head of the Reserve Bank of Australia, Mr Minister for Finance, Mr Beazley deliberately Fraser, who, in a speech about five or six hid from the Australian people that huge weeks ago, said: legacy of $8 billion. Sure, that is a terrible Things have been under control lately, with under- task for us to fix, but do not blame us when lying inflation of 2¼ per cent on average over the past four years. In the year to December quarter, we have to fix the economy because of your the increase was 3.2 per cent, a little above the 13 years of mismanagement. target of 2 to 3 per cent. Underlying inflation is the If Senator Wheelwright does want a future best measure for policy makers to track, but after 30 June 1996, might I suggest—through broader measures tell a similar story. The price deflator for private consumption expenditure, for you, Madam Deputy President, of course— example, shows an average increase of less than 2 that he ought to lift his game and his perform- per cent over the past four years and a rise of 2.8 ances and really do the Senate a favour by per cent over the course of 1995. abiding by the sorts of standards that we do Senator Short clearly got it wrong. expect in this chamber. Senator Cook—Incompetent. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 537

Senator SHERRY—He is incompetent. He for you, Senator Short, on the Brunswick misled the Senate. In his enthusiasm to figures, but we will give you that bad news denigrate the solid record of accomplishment later today, or perhaps tomorrow. That is yet of the Labor government, he gave incorrect another example of where Senator Short has information on the inflation figures. Inflation grossly misled the Senate, because in his is trending down. enthusiasm to denigrate our sound record, That is not the only incorrect answer he has which you will hear more about later this given. Having glanced through the Hansard afternoon and in future months— for Tuesday, 7 May, I note that, in answer to Senator O’Chee—Madam Deputy Presi- Senator Kernot, he said: dent, I raise a point of order. Senator Sherry That is why no major reforms at all had been well knows that it is unparliamentary to undertaken on an ongoing basis throughout the accuse an honourable senator of misleading economy to get the basic structure of the economy the chamber except in a substantive motion to sufficiently internationally competitive. . . that effect. He has done it twice. I suggest I re-emphasise ‘no major reforms at all’. That you direct Senator Sherry to withdraw those is what Senator Short said. comments, which are quite clearly unparlia- Senator Cook—It’s a joke. mentary and impugn the good character and integrity of Senator Short. Senator SHERRY—You are right, Senator Cook, it is a joke. Let me remind Senator Senator Cook—On the point of order: Short of some of the things he could have Senator O’Chee has a selective recollection of mentioned. Over 13 years, the Labor govern- the rulings of the chair on this subject. In ment floated the dollar; we removed exchange previous rulings where someone says that the rates; we knocked over the tariff walls; there Senate is being deliberately misled, then what was the adoption of competition principles; Senator O’Chee has just said follows—that the 15 per cent superannuation scheme; and they have to take a substantive motion. But I significant micro-economic reform in the area remember Senator O’Chee’s colleagues, many of industrial relations and wages. Those are of them on the other side of the parliament, the sort of micro-economic reforms we carried being very free and easy, in fact, alleging out. Yet what did Senator Short do? He there was misleading when there was not, but misled the Senate in a very significant way. using it as a way of trying to damage the He said—and I quote again: credibility of an argument by the then govern- That is why no major reforms at all had been ment. The fact that the chickens have come undertaken on an ongoing basis throughout the home to roost is no reason to find on this economy to get the basic structure of the economy point of order in Senator O’Chee’s favour. sufficiently internationally competitive. . . The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I think, In answer to another question, about the real Senator Sherry, ‘grossly misled’ is getting to price of homes in Australia, he said that many the area which should be withdrawn. people in Australia, over the 13 years of the Senator SHERRY—In deference to your Labor government, had a real decline in the request, I will certainly withdraw. It took price of their homes. We checked the statist- Senator O’Chee five minutes to realise the ics. accusation I had made. I have illustrated three Senator Campbell—That’s true. examples—the inflation example, the allega- Senator SHERRY—Show us your proof. tion by Senator Short that there were no We tabled statistics from the Australian major reforms undertaken in our 13 years in Housing Association which showed that not government, and real housing prices—where only had there been no decline, but there had Senator Short was wrong, and he should been no decline in any major urban centre in admit it. (Time expired) Australia. When we challenge Senator Short Senator SHORT (Victoria—Assistant to name one area, what does he do? He Treasurer) (3.22 p.m.)—I am not sure what comes up with Brunswick. I have got news documentation Senator Wheelwright was 538 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 looking at when he framed his question today in government. or when he made the quite vitriolic interjec- tions and comments after that. I table page 1 Senator SHORT—I said, ‘During your of the official ABS document on the con- period in government’. sumer price index for the March quarter 1996. Senator Sherry—You are selectively In doing so, I draw to the attention of Senator reading your quote. Wheelwright and all senators in the chamber the statement by Treasury in that document Senator SHORT—Let me give you some relating to the measure of underlying infla- facts. Since March 1990, that is two federal tion. The document said: elections ago, ABS data shows that average established house prices in Melbourne have The index of underlying inflation, as defined by the Commonwealth Treasury, increased by 0.4 per cent fallen in nominal terms. Even before inflation between December quarter 1995 and March quarter was taken into account, house prices on 1996, resulting in an annual increase (March average fell in Melbourne. In the last two quarter 1996 on March quarter 1995) of 3.3 per terms of the Labor government, average house cent. prices for established Melbourne houses did So underlying inflation in through the year not rise at all—indeed, as I said, they fell. terms, as I said, rose. That was just in nominal house prices. Senator Wheelwright—No, it didn’t. You In real house prices, the picture is even haven’t read it. grimmer because, from March 1990 to Senator SHORT—I am saying, as I have December 1995, established house prices in just quoted, that underlying inflation in Australia as a whole fell by over two per cent through the year terms rose in the March in real terms. For project homes, the fall was quarter by 3.3 per cent. I have just read it and even greater, with a decline of over five per it is on page 1 of the CPI release for the cent. So the opposition may quibble over the March quarter. In terms of headline inflation, details— Labor left office with inflation at a five-year Senator Sherry—Madam Deputy President, high, with it peaking in the December quarter I wish to take a point of order. Senator Short 1995. It is a fact—and I have not denied is grossly misleading the Senate. He referred this—that inflation subsequently fell in the to the period of a Labor government of 13 March quarter. But when Labor left office, the years from 1983. If he looks at his own most recent available statistics—those from speech in Hansard, he will find that is cor- the December quarter—showed that at that rect. stage headline inflation was at a five-year Senator Panizza—What is the point of high. order on that? Far from my having misled the chamber Senator Sherry—My point of order is with my comments, it is Senator Wheelwright relevance. compounded by Senator Sherry who have The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—There is no misled the house. Whether they did that point of order on that issue. deliberately or whether they did it because they are unable to understand and interpret Senator Crane—Madam Deputy President, economic statistics, I do not know. I would on a point of order— hope that it is ignorance on their part rather Senator Sherry—On your own minister. than a deliberate misleading of the house. But Senator Crane—I am taking a point of the fact is that they are wrong, just as Senator order on you, Senator Sherry. I would like to Sherry’s statement about housing prices is draw the attention of the Senate to the com- wrong. What I said in debate last week was ments made then by Senator Sherry. I believe that many Australians have seen the value of what he said in charging that Senator Short their family home fall. was ‘grossly misleading the Senate’ is a Senator Sherry—Referring to our 13 years reflection on Senator Short. Madam Deputy President, you should ask Senator Sherry to Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 539 withdraw that outrageous point of order, in words. He then rose on a point of order and particular those words which reflected on my deliberately used the same words. Senator colleague Senator Short. Sherry is now saying, if I understand him Senator Faulkner—On the point of order, correctly, that because he was not making a Madam Deputy President: as I understood it, substantive speech he could not make a Senator Sherry was not making a point of comment which is unparliamentary. If that is order, but I might have misheard him. I think the case, any honourable senator can rise in Senator Crane probably misunderstands the this place, make a point of order, however procedures of the house. The words used by spurious, say anything, however unparliamen- Senator Sherry were parliamentary, and we tary, and get away with it. Madam Deputy are always very careful about the language we President, not only does Senator Sherry show use in this chamber. The words ‘grossly a contempt for the standing orders; he also misleading’ have been ruled as parliamentary shows a contempt for your ruling in deliber- on a number of occasions. I do not think there ately using words which, less than five is any substance in Senator Crane’s rather minutes ago, you had instructed were unpar- pathetic attempt to defend his frontbencher liamentary. For that reason, I believe he who was in a lot of difficulty. should be made to withdraw. Senator Crane—Just on that point of Senator Wheelwright—Madam Deputy order: when Senator Sherry rose, he did take President, on the point of order: you correctly a point of order. His intent was to reflect on drew Senator Sherry’s attention to the ques- Senator Short and what he said in giving a tion of misleading the Senate. But the prob- proper answer. The outrageous behaviour on lem is that, after you made the ruling, the that side of the chamber—both in question minister continued to mislead the Senate. He time with the consistent interjections from knows that he put forward an underlying Senators Sherry and Schacht and now with inflation rate number when the quarterly what Senator Wheelwright has done—has numbers are clearly coming down. You been untenable, and I would request that you, cannot have it both ways. Madam Deputy President, ask Senator Sherry The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—That is a to withdraw those words. They are a direct matter for debate, Senator Wheelwright, reflection on my colleague and that sort of without doubt. Certainly Senator Sherry used action should not be allowed to continue in the same words twice. It was my impression this place. that he had used them in a totally different Senator Sherry—I just wish to make a context the first time, when I asked him to comment on that point of order. I was not withdraw, from the way he used them on the speaking when I made my point of order. I second occasion, when implying intent on got up on a point of order and you, Madam Senator Short’s part, and I certainly ruled his Deputy President, ruled me out of order. I point of order out of order. I did not at that accepted your ruling and I sat down. I was point feel that he needed to go further than not speaking, so I do not know how on earth that and withdraw the imputation. Senator Senator Crane can get up and claim a point of Sherry, you ought not to be interjecting and order when I was not speaking and when my shouting across the chamber. If you refrain point of order had been ruled out of order. I from doing that, it would probably be better did not interject on Senator Short after I sat for everybody. down, so I do not see that there is a point of Senator SHORT—It is clear from this order. debate and from the facts that I have given Senator O’Chee—Madam Deputy Presi- the Senate that the only people who have dent, on the point of order: some five minutes misled the Senate in this debate are Labor ago you instructed Senator Sherry that the senators opposite. words ‘grossly misled’ were unparliamentary, Senator COOK (Western Australia) (3.32 and you instructed him to withdraw those p.m.)—Senator Short comes into this chamber 540 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 bearing a heavy load of responsibility in the quite accusatory and probably ought not to be government: he is the Assistant Treasurer of used. I think it is a matter for everybody to be Australia. He has sworn an oath of office to particularly cautious about their language to do all things right and proper in that office, try to avoid casting any aspersions on any and he has a key portfolio in the government. other senator. One therefore expects that the holder of that Senator COOK—I do not want this debate portfolio, the swearer of this oath of office, to divert into a series of points of orders, and the bearer of this great responsibility where honourable senators interfere with the should conduct himself in a way in which the flow of debate by resorting to the standing truth is fundamental. You do not just say orders. What would then suffer is an analysis anything—no matter how silly, no matter how of what happened and what are the merits of defensive—to suit the position at the time. issues for discussion. This debate is now What we have seen from the Assistant revolving around whether or not Senator Short Treasurer is a stumbling, bumbling type of misled the Senate, intentionally or uninten- response to answers; a foolish and silly tionally, inadvertently or otherwise, when he answer often. One who is observing the made the claim as he did during question time behaviour of this chamber could say that it that inflation is getting worse. The underlying was an answer in which he said anything in rate of inflation was the issue on which he order to ease the pressure at the time. I has most recently spoken. He pulled out, as understand that there are pressures on I recall, the ABS schedule and quoted from ministers to get used to the cut and thrust of that. One waited to see how he would use the this chamber. However, one expects from an figures which he quoted against the record, Assistant Treasurer a degree of sober ability but he did not do that so his case is unmade. to engage in analytical answers—not the sort Let me show you why Senator Short has of flustering and blustering responses that we intentionally or otherwise misled the Senate. have received. The reason why we on the In the 1995 September quarter, on Treasury opposition side are quite rightly exercised figures, the underlying rate of inflation in about this matter is that Senator Short has Australia was 1.2 per cent. Honourable sena- played fast and loose with the truth. He has tors will remember that time last year, be- tried to juggle— cause at about that time John Howard, the Senator Short—Madam Deputy President, then Leader of the Opposition and now the I object to that and ask that it be withdrawn. Prime Minister, accused Labor of five minutes The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I did not of economic sunshine. This was a time in feel that Senator Cook was particularly cast- which commentators recognised a very good ing aspersions on the minister at the time, but set of economic indicators for this nation. I think he would need to be particularly That was September 1995. The next quarter’s careful about how he expresses himself. figures are December 1995. What happened then? Remember that the September 1995 Senator COOK—I will, indeed. quarter was 1.2 per cent. What was the Senator Herron—Madam Deputy Presi- December 1995 quarter? It was 0.7 per cent. dent, Senator Cook was virtually saying that In the next quarter, the March 1996 quarter, Senator Short was lying. His words were that it was 0.4 per cent. What we have is a de- he was running fast and loose with the truth. scending row of figures—1.2, 0.7 and 0.4. My interpretation of that is that he is lying. That was why Senator Wheelwright quite rightly jumped to the lectern and said, ‘Why The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—For those don’t you set out the real position?’ The who have been listening to this debate this figures are reeling down; they are not reeling afternoon, which started shortly after question up. time and which has proceeded for nearly half an hour now, there has been a number of Senator Short may not have yet adjusted to accusations from both sides of the chamber, being in government. One should give him a some of which have gone fairly close to being bit of latitude in order to do so. He still thinks Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 541 of himself as being in opposition. He still HELICOPTER CRASH thinks of attacking the former government in order to score points for himself. If Senator Senator HERRON (Queensland—Minister Short wants to continue doing this, he ought for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander to remember that inflation is one measure and Affairs)—by leave—I wish to make a short the level of economic growth is the other. statement regarding a Torres Strait helicopter What the previous government succeeded in crash. I would like to offer my deepest sym- doing was breaking the inflation stick and pathy and support for the people of the Torres getting a lowering level of inflation in this Strait today. A helicopter carrying five people country, and doing it with high levels of went down yesterday near Dauan Island off economic growth and record levels of job the coast of New Guinea. The pilot, a female growth. passenger and a six-year-old child were rescued. Sadly, a member of the Torres Strait It is getting that trifecta in place that is the Regional Authority and chairwoman of Dauan important issue in terms of economic manage- Island, Ms Sanawai Aragu, was trapped in the ment. If you compare our performance inter- helicopter and police divers will recover the nationally, it is a performance that none of the aircraft today. Ms Aragu held the portfolio of G7 can lay a stick on. It is a performance in women’s issues for the Torres Strait Regional which, in terms of economic growth and with Authority. Her husband John, Deputy Chair- low inflation and high job creation, we led the man of Dauan Island, is still missing. The world. Certainly we were at the top of the emergency helicopter is still searching for him OECD table in terms of those indicators. That today. is an uncomfortable and unpalatable thing for the now government to recognise, but if you I met Ms Aragu on my recent visit to York are dealing with the economy you have to Island two weeks ago. She was an outstanding deal with these facts. You should recognise it woman and a role model for her people. We and build your case from there. (Time ex- will be praying for her family during this pired) difficult time. Senator O’CHEE (Queensland) (3.38 Senator KERNOT (Queensland—Leader p.m.)—I am glad that Senator Cook raised the of the Australian Democrats)—by leave—On matter of international comparisons, because behalf of the Australian Democrats I would the international comparisons that are to be like to add our words of sympathy and sup- drawn between the performance of our econ- port for the family of Ms Aragu in this time omy under the Labor Party and the perform- of tragedy. ance of our neighbours is, quite simply, Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy appalling. When I first went to school this Leader of the Opposition in the Senate)—by nation had the highest standard of living in leave—Likewise, on behalf of the opposition the region, it had the highest income in the I extend my sincere condolences. It is a time region and it had the highest number of job of great sadness for the family and of deep opportunities in the region. But look what has regret and concern to us all. happened to this nation under Labor. Look what has happened when we compare the Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- average income in Australia with average tralia)—by leave—I ask that the Greens (WA) incomes in places like Singapore or Japan or be associated with the words that have already Taiwan or Brunei. been said in response to this tragedy and express our condolences to the family and It is clear that under 13 years of Labor this friends. country has slipped backwards in comparison with our international neighbours. Twenty-five Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania)—by years ago— leave—I am sure that in Senator Herron’s statement he would have included us all in The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! The our expression of sympathy to the family. time for this debate has expired. Since others have risen in their places to do Question resolved in the affirmative. so, I too take this opportunity of doing just 542 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 that. at the per capita figures for Brunei. But if there is a reason, it is oil. It is a pretty spe- MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE cious comparison to say that Australia has Economic Growth comparatively slipped back because Brunei has discovered oil. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—The Presi- dent has received a letter from Senator Sherry I would also like to quote with respect to proposing that a definite matter of public the continual comparisons those opposite importance be submitted to the Senate for make to economies that are not relevant in discussion, namely: many respects to the Australian economy. They continue to compare us to Asia. The The failure of the government to have a wages policy and the impact this will have on Australia’s correct comparison, the more valid compari- future economic growth. son, is to OECD economies. In fact, this matter was referred to by the Governor of the I call upon those senators who approve of the Reserve Bank, Mr Fraser, in his recent proposed discussion to rise in their places. speech, when he said: More than the number of senators required By the standards of other developed countries we by the standing orders having risen in their have not done badly. The economy has expanded places— by more than a third over the past decade and a Senator SHERRY (Tasmania—Deputy proper interpretation of the data as well as casual observations suggest the vast majority of Austral- Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (3.43 ians are better off today than ever before. To be p.m.)—Madam Deputy President— distracted by concerns that other countries, includ- Senator Panizza—You have only just ing some of our Asian neighbours, have caught up, made it. or surpassed us is to confuse the issues at stake. We should be pleased that other countries have Senator SHERRY—Senator Panizza come to share our standard of living and welcome obviously cannot count. There are six of us in the opportunities that this creates. the chamber, not five. The issue before the I hope the opposition refrain from continuing Senate today as a matter of public importance to make specious comments, referring only to relates to the wages policy that the Labor Asian countries and ignoring the OECD. In government had for 13 years, known as the our 13 years of government up until early accord in a number of versions—to which I March we had an accord in place. We will will be making some reference in my contri- assert that there is no doubt that following the bution to this debate—and the absolute failure election, if we had still been in office with an of the new government to have any form of accord in place—accord mark 8—there would wages policy whatsoever and the implications have been a cut in interest rates. of that. Why is that so important? Along with the Obviously this issue is central to the issue declining inflation rate—and Senator Short of economic growth. Whilst on that, Senator refuses to admit that inflation is coming down O’Chee made a point that I have to pick up and refuses to acknowledge the legacy of the on in his recent contribution on Senator Labor government: declining inflation— Short’s answers to questions. I do not want to underlying inflation is 3.3 per cent, expected digress over Senator Short’s answers; we will to fall below three per cent this year. Wages have enough problems with him after his growth is back to 4.2 per cent for the year, contribution to this debate. consistent with the accord target when we left Senator O’Chee was comparing us to Asian government. countries. One of them he mentioned was The opposition love to ignore the figures Brunei. I would have to inform Senator for economic growth. Over the last 13 years O’Chee that they discovered oil in Brunei we have enjoyed economic growth—on since he was a boy. That is the reason why, average higher than in OECD comparable per capita, Brunei is much wealthier than economies—of just over three per cent. That Australia—if indeed it is; I will have to look is at a time when we have had severe Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 543 drought, particularly in the last two years, and Again, the Corporate Brief of 1 April says: at a time of low commodity prices, particular- The cyclical picture in this brief suggests that if ly in the mineral sector. Labor had regained office in a setting of wage Senator Panizza—Didn’t we have a restraint embraced with the unions— drought in ‘82 as well? which is what the accord was all about— Senator SHERRY—Stop your prattling. If Australia’s rates would have fallen soon after the those opposite want to contribute to the election. Such is the tension between the coalition economic debate they should do it by more and the unions, however, that that is not a prospect. than just interjection. We have not heard one Syntec, on 12 April, said: contribution from Senator Kemp or Senator A government without the need to keep the labour Panizza in debate. All we have heard is market suppressed enough to deny the unions their interjection. You are leaving it all to poor wages push would be looking for an interest rate Senator Short. I say ‘poor’ because he has an cut about now. A Labor government with any sort of post-election accord would have legitimately unbearable workload and the only person to been looking for a cut in interest rates. have come to his rescue is Senator Abetz, who made 300 speeches last year and, for his Since then we have had lower inflation efforts, got demoted to the far end of the figures, lower wage figures and improved government benches. balance of payment figures. What did the accord achieve? It is useful to note this. In Let us go back to this issue of growth in 1996 wages growth was consistent with the GDP. Australia’s average from 1976 to 1985 accord target of 4.2 per cent. We expected as a total was only just on three per cent; per that there was every reason for this to con- head it was 1¾per cent. From 1986 to 1995 tinue. again it was just on three per cent and per head it was 1¾per cent. What was it in Inflation figures went from 5.1 per cent OECD countries over that period? From 1976 down to 3.7 per cent—contrary to what to 1985 it was a total of three per cent; per Senator Short continues to assert; he will head it was two per cent. It was better than in never convince anyone with the assertion that Australia between 1976 and 1985, but they inflation is going up—within reach of the were mainly the Fraser years. Senator Kemp Reserve Bank’s acceptable band of two to loves to forget the Fraser years. You should three per cent. That means economic growth hear some of the comments he makes about of three per cent at the bottom of the econom- the Fraser years and the missed opportunities. ic trough. The accord mark 7 showed average Between 1986 and 1995 the figures were 2½ economic growth of greater than four per per cent, with 1½ per cent per head. So we cent—the fastest in the OECD, among compa- consistently did better. rable economies. So it was a very solid achievement during the period of the accord Prior to 2 March, these figures would have mark 7. There was wages growth of 4.5 per led to significant reductions in interest rates. cent. That would have been welcomed by home buyers, business and the unemployed. A Industrial disputes are a very critical issue reduction in real interest rates would have when it comes to wages policy. The number meant a significant stimulus to the economy. of industrial disputes was two-thirds lower There is evidence to suggest there would have than when the Liberal Party was last in office. been a cut in interest rates if the accord had They love to talk about the effect of strikes in been continued. Syntec, in the Australian of the economy but it is a Labor government 25 April said: that has seen a significant decline in industrial disputes. The opposition— Also, accord mark 7, through that period, that is us— saw the creation of 714,000 jobs. I recall in is right in saying now that under a Labor govern- the lead-up to the 1993 election, and follow- ment, falls in official interest rates would be ing it, the scoffing of the opposition at our occurring. target of 500,000 jobs. They used to regularly 544 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 berate us here in 1993 and early 1994 because new accord. We congratulated the Leader of we were not going to reach the target of the Opposition for his realism at the time. 500,000 jobs. We reached the target; we got Plainly, he realised the failure of the accord. to 714,000 jobs—those opposite had dropped I can only recommend that all members of the off that claim after about 18 months. opposition get behind their leader and reject Accord mark 8 was a commitment from the the accord and reject the myth that the accord trade union movement that the accord be was good for Australia, because it never was. based on and consistent with maintaining an I find it incredible that Senator Sherry has underlying rate of inflation of two to three per raised this matter of public importance, cent on average over the cycle. Wages policy because the Labor Party and its accord—or would be consistent with this. It certainly was rather the eight accords that it had—failed the so until 2 March when the new government Australian people miserably. In contrast, the tore up the accord. coalition’s wages policy—our industrial Senator Crane—So did Mr Beazley! relations reforms—offer the prospect of higher Senator SHERRY—I will take the interjec- economic growth, lower unemployment and tion because I was at the press conference. better living standards, something that Labor Senator Beazley pointed out that there was no could not achieve on a sustainable basis agreement with the trade union movement during its 13 years in office. because we were now in opposition. He did Last week, in a matter of public importance not tear it up. If we had been in government in the House of Representatives, the shadow the accord would have been continuing. The Treasurer, Mr Gareth Evans, claimed that if simple fact is that you cannot have an agree- Labor had won the election and retained the ment when you are in opposition. That’s the accord, interest rates would have been cut by reality. You don’t want an agreement on now. That is absolutely preposterous. I refer wages. You don’t think it is important. (Time the opposition to an article in the Australian expired) on 25 April, when the economics editor wrote Senator SHORT (Victoria—Assistant in reference to the allegation of Gareth Evans: Treasurer) (3.53 p.m.)—Just at the outset, let This is silly stuff, since it is perfectly obvious the me refer Senator Sherry, in so far as his last excessive rate of wage increase that is alarming the comments were concerned, to his own lead- Reserve Bank took place under the Accord. er’s remarks as reported in the Sydney Morn- That is the real fact of the matter. Indeed, the ing Herald of 20 March. I see he is leaving failure of the accord is patently evident just the chamber—no, he is not, he is all ears. On by looking at the facts. In the last two terms 20 March, the Sydney Morning Herald under under Labor, unemployment rose under the the headline ‘Beazley cuts close links with the accords from 6.2 per cent to 11.2 per cent, ACTU’ carried the following statement from before crawling back down to 8.5 per cent, the Leader of the Opposition, Mr Beazley: with three-quarters of a million Australians The quite symbiotic relationship in the Accord still unemployed, which is a totally unaccept- policy making process, if you like, disappears. The ably high figure, even by Labor’s standards. union movement has to make its own way. There has been no reduction in the unemploy- The article went on to say that Mr Beazley ment rate since May last year. The number of hedged on a new accord, pointing out that the unemployed stands at 765,000 and youth circumstances which led to the original deal unemployment at a staggering, disastrous 26 no longer existed. per cent. Does that sound like an argument to Senator Sherry—We are not in govern- keep the accord? ment. The accord has failed not only in terms of Senator SHORT—No. He is saying that job creation. At the height of the accord in the quite clear implication was that the cir- 1989-90, home interest rates hit 17 per cent. cumstances that led to the original deal no The overdraft rate under this great successful longer existed. It said that he hedged on a accord was 21 per cent. Even today, as a Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 545 result of this accord, Australia is suffering seem to understand is that as a nation we some of the highest bank prime interest rates have to be increasingly internationally com- in the world. Over 13 years, the accord gave petitive. There is no point in just becoming Australia record current account deficits. The more competitive than we were ourselves. We 13 years of the Accord gave us the worst have to become more competitive than our current account deficit in the industrialised international competitors, otherwise we will world and took net foreign debt from a very continue to see, as we have seen under Labor, respectable figure of $23 billion to a stagger- a continual slide in our relative living stand- ing $185 billion when Labor left office. The ards. Indeed, under the 13 years of Labor 13 years of the accord gave Australia an rule, Australia slipped from 10th to 22nd in average compound growth rate in the con- the world in average living standards. sumer price index—in headline inflation—of The supposed purpose of the accord was to 7.2 per cent, almost double the 3.8 per cent keep inflation down by controlling wages of the main industrial countries, the G7. growth. But it should never be forgotten that The 13 years of the accord led to the Labor got inflation down by putting interest creation of an $8 billion budget deficit. After rates up to massive levels. As I said, home more than four years of economic recovery, interest rates rose to 18 per cent and business we face, as a nation, a Commonwealth budget interest rates got above 20 per cent. What deficit of $8,000 million. Sustained fiscal businesses can operate with interest rates at laxity has caused Commonwealth debt alone that sort of level? No wonder we had the to blow out to almost $100 billion, an in- worst recession, deliberately induced by the crease of something like four times over the then government, in 60 years. last five or so years. The 13 years of the Inflation certainly came down, but what an accord saw Australia with an $8 billion deficit enormous price Australians paid for it. When after five years of economic recovery. inflation came down, how did Labor keep it The accord also, of course, stalled much down? It kept it down by running the econ- needed economic reform. There were all those omy so slow that unemployment has been areas crying out for reform and improvement: kept stuck in a rut of 8.5 per cent, having the waterfront, transport and communications, touched almost one million people unem- and industrial relations. They were absolutely ployed and with almost 800,000 people still crying out for reform. Seemingly everyone in remaining out of work. It kept inflation low Australia knew that they needed reform by having interest rates amongst the highest except the then Labor government. For 13 in the industrialised world. It kept inflation years, the previous government had put those down by keeping real wages down. in the too hard basket. Why did they put them Real wages actually fell by over one per in the too hard basket? It was because the cent in the 13 years under Labor and the ACTU said no. They said, ‘We cannot reform accord. The accord resulted in low productivi- cabotage. We cannot reform the waterfront. ty growth, which gave Australians no choice We cannot reform the stevedoring industry. but to suffer high interest rates and virtually We cannot deliver real industrial relations no real wages growth. It was the failure of the reform.’ On 2 March, the Australian people accord, very importantly, that was the reason said, ‘Yes, we can make these reforms.’ They why the people of Australia gave the Howard said they were not satisfied with their living government such an overwhelming mandate. standards and they were willing to have On 2 March, it was the voice of the Austral- reforms that would give them better living ian people that said that the political wing of standards. After 13 years under Labor and the the ACTU, the Australian Labor Party, had let accord, Australia’s labour productivity is 20 Australia down so badly and banished it to per cent lower than the OECD average. What the opposition benches because the Australian hope do we have for a brighter future, with people wanted to start rebuilding this great such a dismal productivity performance? nation of ours. One of the things that Labor just cannot 546 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

So Senator Sherry’s matter of public im- There is an important assumption that the portance today is a nonsense. It is yet another current government has no wages policy. I indication that the Labor Party is blindingly think they do, although it is not clearly stated. out of touch with reality and out of touch They have a policy to see that the wages of with the Australian people. No wonder it is working people are pushed lower in real terms now out of government and the Australian and perhaps even in nominal terms. people have given the Howard government To start with, what is the impact of sacking the opportunity, the great chance and the or retiring an estimated 30,000 members of request to rebuild the great nation that Aus- the Australian Public Service? The govern- tralia once was. ment is also going to change the industrial Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) relations system to allow employers to more (4.03 p.m.)—I rise to speak on the proposal easily sack people and to put increased before us today, that is, the failure of the pressure on workers to accept whatever an government to have a wages policy and the employer offers, thus weakening the ability of impact this will have on Australia’s future workers to bargain collectively or take collec- economic growth. I want to briefly question tive action in their common interest. a few of the assumptions and implications of If people argue against that, all they have this proposal. to look at is the proposal from Senator New- The first assumption is that economic man to dob in somebody who has been growth should be the prime goal of govern- offered a job, no matter how bad the terms ment. There is an assumption that growth is and conditions, so that that person can be always good and the more growth the better. taken off unemployment benefits. That is not There is an assumption that overall growth choice; that is disempowerment. When the results in distributional benefits, or that a government was in opposition, they always concentration of profits and benefits result in said that people should always have a choice. general improvement through a trickle-down You are now taking away the choice, which process. means you are disempowering workers. Even in development economics, in which This is all done in the name of international I was involved for several years, the issue of competitiveness. That did not start with the trickle down has long been considered a current government. Where has the downward failed concept. Simply making the larger pressure on wages come from? It is part of corporations in our society richer does not the new globalism. We are all working to- mean a better distribution within our society. wards export at all costs. That is the race to Under the last government this was often true. the bottom—wages and conditions, environ- During booms perhaps unemployment has mental standards, taxes and so on. In the end, been reduced, but that does not necessarily we are all going faster and faster to stay on mean that real wages and conditions have the same spot. risen. In fact, as soon as we start getting Quite frankly, Labor should have been shortages in particular skill areas there is using their position to modify the impacts of pressure from the business community to globalism. But they never admitted that it was import skilled workers so they do not have to a problem. They never admitted that that was pay more wages. It seems that the employ- their role. So you ended up with a whole lot ment market works only in one direction. of people very confused about why they were To the contrary, I do not believe that not well off or why there was this growing increased social security benefits mean that an working poor. increasing number of the working poor are On real standards of living, are we not really better off. You can only fiddle with the running faster and faster simply to stay in the figures. We want to see a society that has the same spot or to go backwards? There is a ability to use its human and natural resources difference between growth and development. in an effective way so that we do not misuse The definition of development generally or waste them. means a change for the better. A lot of the Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 547 time we are heading for more volume of the economy flow within the economy. trade, but often that does not necessarily accord with a change for the better. What I am trying to say is that we have a We need to consider the future costs and situation which perhaps developed long before real costs of many of the decisions we are this new government came into power. We making. The perceived need to be competitive have held values in our society such as that means employers often cannot afford a situa- equity and the environment are not important. tion where workers can protect themselves. We have been told to aim for growth—growth The great cry from the coalition is labour at any cost. We have also been told that market reform which often means disem- growth must be good, exports must be good powering workers and making them work and trade must be good. As a country, we more for less money. Enterprise agreements have never sat down to work out what we are and individual contracts are just two measures doing and whether the direction we are to accelerate this process. Where do workers following is resulting in benefits to people. work? The majority of them work in small Are we running the risk of disempowering business. Where do most of the customers of whole groups of people in the process? Are small business come from? They come from we not running the risk of alienating greater the local economy—they are workers—and numbers in our community? Why do suddenly yet the government claims to support small large numbers of blue collar workers in business. Australia wonder whether they are being represented at the political level? International competitiveness and opening up to competition through deregulation means This is not just about industrial relations. that we have to do things like deregulate They do not understand the implications of trading hours so that big grocery chains can the new globalisation measures. They do not kill corner stores. It also means changing understand what we have signed up to under loadings for unsociable hours so big chains the Uruguay Round of GATT. They do not can employ youth workers at a pittance understand how the rules have changed. They through the night and ensure that small do not understand why, in their shops, they businesses nearby die. Mums and dads simply cannot buy Australian made goods. Many cannot compete. women in the footwear, clothing and textile We should think about this situation. The industry do not understand why their wages situation we are faced with is that speciality are actually going down and why outsourcing shops close, nobody keeps stocks of anything is taking place in an otherwise rich country. anymore and service is a thing of the past. Many people in value adding industries are Where is the mention of standard of living or being forgotten in this process. Many people quality of life in all of this? These terms have in regional areas are wondering why competi- dropped from the political vocabulary— tion policy means outsourcing many areas of displaced by the monolith of economic employment so that they do not have jobs any growth. more. They do not understand those things. They do not understand why goods are being Many people would prefer to work sociable brought by road to regional areas. They do hours and have their teenage children working not understand why an environmental cost sociable hours so that families—another does not get added into the costs of products. favourite coalition icon—can actually spend time together. Many people would prefer a Growth is an issue that should be looked at situation where people work less time and in perspective. Development means a change more people have jobs. They may not gener- for the better. Part of what we have to look at ate growth, but it may produce substantially in our society is whether we are changing for better quality of life and more sharing of the the better and whether we have a policy benefits we have in this country. Many people which ensures that people get a fair go. Do would prefer a situation where resources in we have a policy which means we are not developing a working poor? Do we have a 548 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 policy which means we are not able to pro- Governor gave in Sydney on 28 March this vide basic things in Australian society? Do we year—this was after you lot won government. have a policy which actually puts in the real In part he said: costs of the economic decisions that we are How then should we view the outlook for wages in making in our society? the post-Accord environment? I believe that we do need reasonable stand- I speak, as you know, as a consistent supporter ards for wages in Australia. I believe that it of the Accord process— is wrong to take away the ability of people to Senator Crane interjecting— participate in decision making within the workplace. I believe that disempowering Senator MURPHY—Senator Crane, you workers is the wrong way to go if we want to should listen to this— be a smart or clever country. All in all we I believe it has helped to moderate wage increases need a wages policy. We need to be sure that over the past decade. This, in turn, has contributed we are giving people a fair go. We need to be to job creation, lower inflation and a higher profit sure that the direction we going is actually share. It has helped monetary policy to maintain leading to an improved quality of life in all growth in activity and employment while delivering lower inflation, and it has also helped to reduce the aspects. I have not seen any indication that incidence of industrial strife. this is going to happen. (Time expired) A little table is also included. A couple of Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (4.13 points worth noting from it are that from 1976 p.m.)—I rise to speak in this matter of public to 1985 the profit share as a percentage of importance debate about the failure of the non-farm GDP was around 13.4 per cent. government to have a wages policy. When the Between 1986 and 1995, it was 15.6 per cent. now opposition was in government we always The Reserve Bank governor went on to say: had a wages policy, which was commonly known as the accord. We think it is essential The Government has an important role here to that the government have a role to play in see that this framework operates as effectively and fairly as possible . . . The Reserve Bank too has a wages policy in this country. That point has role. The particular ‘reality’ we bring is a firm been taken up by a number of commentators, commitment to hold inflation to an average of including the Governor of the Reserve Bank. between 2 and 3 per cent over the course of the When the government was in opposition business cycle. Wage and price setters should heed this... they also thought that wages policy was important in terms of how you structured your The very purpose of this debate is to ask the economic policy. Every time there was a government to identify what it is going to do national wage increase they opposed it, yet in terms of a wages policy and how it is they try to tell us that they support higher going to maintain the level of wages growth wages. Any time employment figures came that has done all of those important things. out they certainly felt that a wages policy was I remind the government again of some of very important. They were always chastising the very successful outcomes of the accord the government and trying to pick holes in the process. When the then Prime Minister out- wages policy we had. We have never claimed lined in the parliament just prior to the 1993 that our wages policy was the best, but we election the intended outcomes of accord have a right to ask what yours is. Right now mark 7, the then shadow spokesperson for you do not have one. I would like to remind industrial relations—I think he was in that the government of the successes of our wages position; I do not remember whether or not policy. he, Lazarus with a triple bypass, was the I would like to refer to some comments by leader of the party now in government— the Governor of the Reserve Bank, Bernie scoffed at our promise to deliver 500,000 Fraser. An article in a Reserve Bank journal jobs. Indeed, he said that it was ‘an insult to headed ‘Sustaining growth and living the intelligence of the Australian people’. The standards’ outlines part of an address that the reality for those opposite is that we actually delivered 714,000 jobs. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 549

Senator McKiernan—Fifty per cent more. have been in government is a semblance of a Senator MURPHY—That is, as Senator wages policy. You have proposed to get rid McKiernan points out, 50 per cent more than of about 30,000 Public Service jobs. I am what we promised. We have not seen any quite sure that will make a marvellous contri- promises from you, although I know what we bution towards the economy. You have also have seen. guttered and removed some of the most successful employment programs that we put The other important factor in taking account in place under Working Nation. of the 714,000 jobs is that the participation rate was an all-time record. The number of Senator Vanstone tried to answer a question people in work in this country was an all-time about one of those, NETTFORCE, but failed record. Now of course unemployment is too to do so. In terms of young people and high and was too high. We had a proposal in traineeships for people who have been out of terms of accord mark 8 which gave a commit- work for long periods, NETTFORCE has ment to two principal things: first, wages been remarkably successful—so successful growth and, second, employment creation. that the latest figures show traineeship vacan- The trade union movement of this country, on cies trebled in the last nine months to 28,931. behalf of the workers it represents, undertook It is also worth noting that the number of to ensure that wages growth did not affect traineeship vacancies notified to the CES for employment growth and that wages growth 1994 were 12,500. For 1995, it was 23,500. would be pegged to employment growth. I For the three months to the end of March this think those are very commendable outcomes year, 15,000 were already notified. and very commendable steps in anyone’s Yet without any reason, without any assess- view. ment of the success or otherwise of a program The other very important factor I should such as NETTFORCE, you axed it. That starts mention that we achieved in terms of the to paint a picture of what we can expect will accord process we had in place was the be the wages policy from you in government. lowest disputation ever. We should note what You will ultimately live to tell a very sorry the Reserve Bank says in terms of working tale about your wages policy, its contribution days lost per thousand employees. Between to the economy of this country and the type 1976 and 1985, it was 482. Between 1986 of industrial relations that you are going to try and 1995, it was 176. If they are not achieve- to force down the necks of workers in this ments that are in the interests of this country, country. That will only lead to significant I really do not know what are. The govern- disputation. That will lead to higher inflation, ment, which condemns and continues to which will ultimately affect one of the very condemn the processes that we had in place, important things that the people of this coun- owes it to the people, to working Australians, try want to have security and surety about: to tell them exactly what it is going to do. interest rates. They all pay them on their mortgages. That is what is very important. We achieved things like bringing inflation (Time expired) down, which is a very important point. Aver- age inflation over the time you were last in The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT government was 9.8 per cent. When we came (Senator Reynolds)—Before I call Senator into government it was going up, at 11.4 per Sandy Macdonald, I understand that informal cent. When you came into government this arrangements have been made to allocate time, it was going down and is trending specific times to the remaining speakers in down, as we consistently tried to point out today’s debate. With the concurrence of the today to Senator Short, who seems to have Senate, I shall ask the clerks to set the clock some difficulty understanding the reality of accordingly. how inflation works. Senator SANDY MACDONALD (New I want to have a quick look at what we South Wales) (4.23 p.m.)—I am glad that gather from the very short eight weeks you Senator Sherry has submitted for discussion 550 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 this matter of public importance on the ning the country was because your wages government’s wages policy. It has given me policy was not a wages policy at all. It was a and other government senators the opportunity mates’ policy with real wages falling consis- to discuss the contribution and relevance of tently over 13 years. And who were the the accord under the last government. Before victims of the accord? They were small the election, the Labor Party and Mr Kelty in business, families and the unemployed. particular were guilty of a scare campaign that Employers did not want to hire people be- did not work. In the Australian on 20 Februa- cause the Labor government had infringed ry, Mr Kelty is quoted as having said: upon their rights, through their unfair dismiss- If they want to fight, if they want war, well, they’ll al laws, and they could be severely disadvan- have the full symphony—with all the pieces, all the taged if a new employee was not appropriate. clashes and all the music. This fear became so deep rooted within employers that they were frightened to hire This was from a man who sat on the Reserve anyone new simply because of the impractical Bank board. It cost Labor support dearly legislation that went splendidly along with an among reasonable voters everywhere. impractical Labor government. Mr Kelty is playing a different tune now. With increased emphasis on productivity the But it was this type of irresponsible comment unions are in danger of being left behind. that the Labor Party and the ACTU were Ever since the introduction of enterprise guilty of in trying to frighten the Australian bargaining the unions have been frantically people into believing that an end of the wage trying to get whatever rises by any means. I accord would mean wages chaos under a will give an example of the inappropriateness Howard government. Here we are, two of these means. Look at the enterprise agree- months into a Howard government, and the ments in abattoirs. Most comprise of money sky has not fallen in. In fact, it has become up-front just to start talking about increases in much bluer. The government wants a coopera- productivity. tive approach. What is more, the government will get it. This is quite different from before Senator Sherry, in debating a motion to take 2 March when the ACTU ruled the roost—the note of an answer earlier today, championed ‘mates rates’ existed for 13 years. the great deregulation by the Labor govern- The resounding defeat of the Labor Party ment. But what is really discussed is how on 2 March has even opened the eyes of the much of the ‘them and us’ mentality underlay leader of the Labor Party, Mr Beazley. He Mr Keating’s championing of free markets. was reported in the Sydney Morning Herald The people who felt the chill winds of low on 20 March, under the headline ‘Beazley tariffs, deregulation and foreign entry into the cuts close links with the ACTU’, to have said: domestic markets were the banks, the manu- facturers and the farmers. At no point did Mr The union movement has to make its own way. Keating offer a similar challenge to the At least your leader has realised what a unions. failure, no less an embarrassment, the accord Competition in the global market is made has become. It is very interesting to note in more difficult by union laws, which enshrine the same article that: low productivity. The failure to even touch Neither of the former ACTU Presidents . . . Simon the rat hole, known as the Australian water- Crean and Martin Ferguson will pick up the front, is among the worst second-best options industrial relations portfolio . . . Both have made that the previous Labor government embarked it clear they do not want the job. on. It is heartening to hear that, in a speech It is no wonder that no-one wants the job to the Metal Trades Industry Association’s when one of the major failings of the Keating national personnel and industrial relations government was the accord. group conference last Thursday, the Deputy Governor of the Reserve Bank of Australia, On 2 March, one of the many reasons Mr Macfarlane, said: Australia did not want the Labor Party run- Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 551

The movement from a centralised system of wage absolute disgrace. I hope it will improve. I determination to a decentralised one based on hope we will be told exactly what the wages individual productivity bargaining is clearly a good policy of this government will be. one. It should help to provide flexibility, and to unlock productivity gains that were formerly not I was going to start my speech in a tradi- accessible. tional manner, or in a manner that I found to This is certainly good news for Australia in be traditional in my time spent on the govern- that the deputy governor is supporting a move ment benches—I am trying to get used to away from the accord monopolised economy being on the opposition benches. Quite often that plagued our nation for 13 years. in my time as a government backbencher I have seen coalition senators rise in this place It is constructive to focus our efforts on and quote Syntec: a conservative economic productivity for the benefit of employees, analysis group; some would even say a right- employers and the nation. The only thing that wing conservative analysis group. Syntec is is left for the opposition is to threaten the worth quoting, as coalition senators have Senate with obstructionist tactics to ensure found out and quoted ad infinitum. In the constructive legislation is not passed to Australian on 25 April, a little while ago, counter the failure in this area. Syntec said: The Labor Party should carefully think The opposition is right in saying now that under a about the context of this MPI. Would it not Labor Government falls in official interest rates be better to support changes that will remove would be occurring. any evidence of your failings, to support This present government is robbing the people policy that will reform industrial relations to of Australia of those falls in interest rates. On bring it up to speed with the present, to 1 April Syntec said: support something that will give small busi- The cyclical picture in this brief suggests that if ness the opportunity to get back on its feet, to Labor had regained office in a setting of wage support the employment of those who could restraint embraced with the unions, Australia’s rates not get jobs under the stranglehold that the would have fallen soon after the election. Such is accord and unfair dismissal laws had over the tension between the coalition and the unions Australia and, in doing so, strengthen the however that that is not a prospect. financial security of small business and We are seeing that tension very clearly and families for the future? This government is very starkly outside this building today. I about improving the prospects of Australians regret that we are probably going to see it and it will do just that. much more often. On 12 April Syntec—this conservative and, some say, right-wing or- Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) ganisation that coalition colleagues were quite (4.30 p.m.)—I might commence my contribu- happy to quote ad infinitum—said: tion to this matter of public importance, A Government without the need to keep the labour proposed by my colleague Senator Sherry, by market suppressed enough to deny the unions their taking up that last matter that Senator Sandy wages push would be looking for an interest rate Macdonald raised of what the government cut about now. will actually do. Today, 8 May, as we sit in A Labor Government with any sort of post-election the parliament of Australia, thousands of Accord would have been legitimately looking for public servants are assembling outside this a cut in interest rates. building and protesting because their jobs are in jeopardy. Not only would we have been looking for it, This government that is supposed to be we would have delivered on it by this time about looking after families is actually threat- because that is what Labor did when we were ening the lifestyles and indeed the livelihoods in office. The government has had an enor- of decent, honest human beings—so much so mous responsibility thrust upon them to that these people have to assemble outside the manage and to look after this country. They parliament to give vent to their feelings about have promised that they will look after fami- what is happening to their future. That is an lies. Part of looking after families is giving 552 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 people jobs, not what is going on at the new jobs in Australia were in WA. Almost all moment in the slash, burn and raze method of of them came out of the workplace agreement destroying jobs and using the public sector as system and the increase in wages came out of the model that can be followed in other areas. the workplace agreement system. When we Give people employment, do not put them out look at these things in time, we will be of work. Relieve the uncertainty that pervades judged with regard to our wages policy, and wide sections of the public sector. I believe you will find that the position we have adopted is the correct position. A headline in the Canberra Times yesterday was about a nine per cent unemployment rate Our wages policy will be geared to produc- for this city, for this territory, which was tivity. The parties will determine—without protected from most of the very severe unem- interference and without coercion, but with ployment rates that we had some time ago. choice, underpinned by a safety net deter- Even it is showing enormous concern at the mined by the Industrial Relations Commission moment. Today the Chief Minister for the with the introduction of workplace agree- territory where the Commonwealth parliament ments—a simplified award system keeping the sits waited for the Prime Minister (Mr How- certified agreements which already exist. ard), a member of the same political party, to I want to outline those particular points. But ask him to modify the approach that the somebody else has described this in a much government—a government of just nine better way than I possibly could. He said: weeks—is taking and to tell him how the Let me describe the model of industrial relations government is attacking Canberra, how it is we are working towards. It is a model which places Canberra bashing, which is the favourite sport primary emphasis on bargaining at the workplace of many others from outside this place. (Time level within a framework of minimum standards expired) provided by arbitration tribunals. Senator CRANE (Western Australia) (4.35 It is a model under which arbitrated awards and arbitrated wage increases would be there only as a p.m.)—I, too, join this debate and I am safety net. pleased to have the opportunity to do so. I am also delighted that we have this matter of I emphasise: ‘only as a safety net’. He then public importance before us: said: The failure of the Government to have a wages This safety net would not be intended to prescribe policy and the impact this will have on Australia’s the actual conditions of work of most employees future economic growth. but only to catch those unable to make workplace agreements with employers. Over time, the safety It is rather interesting that this should come net would inevitably become simpler. We would forward. In fact, I view it in such a way that have fewer awards with fewer clauses. I call it manna from heaven or even Christ- Who said that? None other than the former mas in May. There is no doubt that the Prime Minister, Paul Keating, in April 1993. former government had a wages policy, but it Paul Keating knew then what had to be done, was the wrong policy. Almost every measure but he could not deliver it. Why couldn’t he you place against it indicates that. deliver it? I just want to highlight a couple of points. We need to look at what happened at that We heard an almost identical contribution particular time. Paul Keating directed former from Labor Party people in Western Australia Minister Brereton to mount his trusty steed— when changes to industrial policy were made spurs glistening, six-shooters loaded, hat there. It was almost identical; you could pull fluttering in the breeze—and sent him off out the state Hansard. Yet what do we see in down to the ACTU conference. Remember all Western Australia? The wages increases over that? Minister Brereton was booed and hissed recent times have been double the national out of that particular conference. He was met average. What did we see in the last figures when he got there by Martin, Jenny and Bill. that were brought out as far as new jobs were What happened? As I said, he was booed and concerned? Twelve thousand of the 14,000 Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 553 hissed out of the conference, his horse was fell by over one per cent. One can go on shot, his six-shooters were taken away from highlighting particular aspects of that Indus- him, and he was sent back to Paul with his trial Relations Reform Act which did so much tail between his legs. That was what happened damage to the Australian economy. in 1993, and that was one of the major contri- We have heard speakers over here talk buting factors to the demise of this ex- about relativities, comparing the conditions of government opposite. The people who had 20 years ago with those of today. The only supported the Labor Party in the past aban- effective measure you can put in place, as far doned them in droves. as those opposite are concerned, is the meas- This particular aspect and what came out of ure of how we are comparing with our inter- it was the introduction of Brereton’s IR national competitors. When we look at par- reform act—and it would be the worst legacy ticular aspects with our international competi- of your legislation record while you were in tors, while we have improved marginally in government. Let us look at some of these some areas, we have fallen further behind the particular aspects. The appalling unfair dis- position we were in when the Labor govern- missal provisions: we will fix them. Our ment came into power. unfair dismissal arrangements will be ‘a fair I want to quote some aspects out of the go to all’. We will reintroduce back into the monthly economic and social indicators. Trade Practices Act sections 45D and 45E. These would make very good reading and be We will return protection for innocent third very instructive for those on the other side of parties—and didn’t we need that just before the chamber. Looking down the figures, we Christmas when waterfronts were closed find that we still have 8.9 per cent unemploy- down, coalmines were closed down and ment in this country. We see the figures from various actions were taken. 1991 through to 1995-96 ranging from 11 per cent to virtually nine per cent. If we go over You introduced enterprise flexibility agree- the page, we find that during that same period ments instead of workplace agreements. You of time the long-term unemployed figures could not allow the parties, even where there have ranged from 282,500 to 224,500. That were no union members in the workplace, to is the disgrace which has occurred with the make their own agreement without union application of the policies of the previous interference. We will fix that. Employees will government—and I have outlined how we have the choice of whether they wish to intend to address that. belong to a union or not. They will be able to As we go on, we see the figures for youth choose which union they can join. They will unemployment. We look at bankruptcies and even be able to make a choice to form their see that, between 1991-92 and 1995-96, own union. I emphasise again: we will be bankruptcies ranged from 3,305 per annum to keeping certified agreements. Our wages 4,137. The figures go on and on. Then we policy is based on choice and freedom in the come to the current account deficit and the workplace. It will deliver higher productivity impact that has had. (Time expired) and, hence, higher wages and higher profita- bility. PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS The accord failed by almost every measure, Senator SPINDLER (Victoria)—I seek so let us try a few of them. During the period leave to make a personal explanation. of the accord, we had the highest sustained Leave granted. interest rates on record in this country; we had the worst recession in 60 years; you could Senator SPINDLER—Following the not deliver on the waterfront. In fact, we have Senate’s passing of the motion to establish a gone backwards in recent times on the water- casino inquiry, Premier Kennett is reported to front. As has already been stated, there was have said this afternoon at a function at the a productivity loss of 20 per cent. There are Ringwood Chamber of Commerce: other measures we can look at. Real wages I would suggest that Senator Spindler, who started 554 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 his young life as a member of the Hitler Youth, is Commonwealth censorship ministers. I am now going to complete his public performance in moving a motion to defer this notice of very much the same way. motion until tomorrow because I understand Mr Kennett’s case cannot be very good if he that there is some reluctance. I would hope has to resort to name calling and character that by tomorrow that reluctance will be assassination in an attempt to avoid accounta- overcome. I hope that those responsible will bility. see that it is important in the public interest that the final draft guidelines be tabled in this The facts are that I was seven years old parliament, if not in the state parliaments. when the war started and 12 years old when the war ended, that my parents were Germans Question resolved in the affirmative. and that all German girls and boys were HAZARDOUS WASTE (REGULATION automatically enrolled in the youth division OF EXPORTS AND IMPORTS) of the Hitler Youth at the age of 10. We had AMENDMENT BILL 1996 no choice. My experience during those years has made me a lifelong peace activist and In Committee anti-racist and a strong opponent of totalitar- Consideration resumed from 7 May. ian regimes. My record on these issues is on The bill. public view. The CHAIRMAN—The committee is Similar attacks were made in 1990 when I considering the Hazardous Waste (Regulation stood as a candidate for the Senate. I believe of Exports and Imports) Amendment Bill they actually got me votes because the com- 1996. When the committee was last consider- munity saw how sleazy those attacks were. I ing the bill it was dealing with amendments believe Mr Kennett’s words will backfire on circulated by Senator Chamarette and Senator him in a similar way. I believe that Austral- Bell and we had dealt with the first four items ians who suffered similar experiences as of Senator Chamarette’s amendments. children in the European war zone will be deeply distressed by Mr Kennett’s insensitive (Quorum formed) attack. The CHAIRMAN—The question is that item 2 stand as printed. Senator Chamarette ORDER OF BUSINESS is to move an amendment to insert a subsec- tion. Film and Video Guidelines Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (4.51 tralia) (4.53 p.m.)—I move: p.m.)—I move: 5. Schedule 1, item 2, page 3, after subsection That general business notice of motion No. 28 3(1), (after line 15), insert the following standing in the name of Senator Harradine for subsection: today, proposing an order for the production of The principle of industry responsibility documents by the Minister representing the Attor- (1A) In relation to the exercise of any obligation, ney-General (Senator Vanstone), be postponed till function or discretion of the Minister arising the next day of sitting. under this Act, the Minister must have regard to I seek leave to make a very, very short the following principle, namely, that where an statement about this matter. industry, including a particular member of that industry, produces hazardous waste that industry Leave granted. and member have primary responsibility to Senator HARRADINE—I apologise for ensure that the hazardous waste is managed in an once again moving to defer this notice of environmentally sound manner and is disposed motion. The notice of motion is to require the of safely. tabling of certain documents, and included in (The heading to section 3 should be omitted and the documents is the final draft of classifica- the following heading substituted: tion guidelines for films and videos which are "Object, principle and aims".) currently under consideration by the state and I want to express my gratitude for the running Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 555 sheet. That ought to make the committee the system will increase efficiency many fold consideration of this bill a lot simpler than it and solve several problems at once. has been to date. That is why we believe this clause would This amendment is proposed by the Greens be an addition to the bill. It would also (WA) , and I believe it is supported by the address the concern that at no other point in Australian Democrats. We believe this insert this bill will the term ‘dispose of safely’ is a way of leaving the phrase ‘dispose of occur. Following some amendments which we safely’ in the bill. We have already expressed opposed but which were agreed to earlier in grave concern about it being removed. We this debate, the removal of the term ‘dispose think that it is important that in at least one of safely’ occurred. I commend Greens place in the bill, and the place we believe to amendment No. 5 to my colleagues. be most appropriate, there should be the Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister principle that the bill should have something for the Environment) (4.57 p.m.)—I under- to do with the safe disposal of hazardous stand where the Greens are coming from. I do waste and that people should not simply be not have any great problem with that. The able to move hazardous waste around from difficulty— place to place, whether in an environmentally sound manner or not. Senator Forshaw—Do you know where you are going? It is not acceptable for the community to do industry’s dirty work for it—often at a cost to Senator HILL—Yes, I am going to object standard of living, health, livelihood and to this amendment. If you give me the oppor- survival, and at the cost of infant mortality. tunity, I will explain why. What I was saying For that reason, the responsibility is being was that I have some sympathy with the placed exactly where it belongs—with indus- sentiment of what Senator Chamarette is try. One of the key solutions to the hazardous saying, but I do not really see that what she waste crisis we have facing the world at is planning to insert in the bill adds a great present is to make industry responsible for its deal. own waste. An overriding principle of this bill If it is not inconsistent with that, my other should, therefore, be industry responsibility. concern is that, each time we depart from the It has never been acceptable that industry convention in an effort to add another con- should cut its costs and increase its profits by sideration which might be part of an environ- using the natural environment, and the people mental agenda, we increase the potential for that live within it, as cheap dumping grounds. inconsistencies and other consequences that Yet without legislating to make industry flow from that. unquestionably responsible for the ethical What I am saying is that we have approach- disposal of its own wastes, this will continue ed this bill from a different conceptual basis to happen. from that of Senator Chamarette in that we There is much to be gained in making have sought to enact domestic law to imple- industry responsible. As industry finds it is ment the convention’s requirements, whereas required to deal with its wastes, it will pro- Senator Chamarette is seeking to go further duce less of them. It will recycle more, it will and state general principles of environmental save resources and, eventually, increase its responsibility and other matters. We think that profits and those of the community in the it is unwise to do so in this piece of legisla- form of both direct revenue and quality of tion because, as I said, inconsistencies only life. Safer chemicals will be used, products lead to uncertainty in interpretation which can will be reformulated, production processes be counterproductive to the objective that we will be modified, operations and maintenance are seeking. Therefore, on balance, I think it will be improved and closed-loop recycling would be better not to include the amendment and re-use will become more prevalent. Waste sought by Senator Chamarette, notwithstand- is expensive. Ensuring that it is fed back into ing that I obviously have sympathy with the principle of industry responsibility. 556 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

In concluding, it could be argued that the different set of parameters and a different set principles implicit in the bill—that each of decision making opportunities than the applicant for a permit to import or export word ‘safely’. If you really mean to comply must demonstrate the need for the proposed with the spirit and the purpose of the conven- movement and must demonstrate the environ- tion, I see no reason why things should be mental soundness of it—are sufficient. Noth- changed in this way. Surely, it should be ing needs to be added to the bill to make that safety that we are concerned about with more explicit. hazardous waste rather than efficiency. Amendment negatived. The word ‘efficiently’ can be refined and redefined in a number of ways—according to Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- time, according to economics, according to tralia) (5.01 p.m.)—I move: the convenience of the perpetrators and 6. Schedule 1, item 2, page 3 (lines 21 to 22), according to any number of other judgments omit paragraph(b). that can be made. But the word ‘safely’ is one This amendment relates to the aims of the which is fairly absolute. It is either safe or it convention and to the article 11 inclusion in is not. If that is our aim, why change it? the aims. We did speak about it when we The fear that we have is that the word were discussing my first amendment in ‘efficiently’ will be used to cover up all sorts relation to another matter. To reiterate, article of unsafe practices and all sorts of cost 11 is a tiny section of the convention that cutting measures which would allow us to allows the minister to enter into a bilateral escape the general thrust of the convention agreement with another country to determine and allow us to continue to avoid meeting that a hazardous waste is not a hazardous costs here in Australia and to take what might waste. This is by no means the overall aim of seem to be the cheapest option at the time, the Basel convention and therefore should not but which may cost the earth, literally. be stated as one of the overall aims of the bill. For that reason we wish to see that We are very determined to see that the deleted. I assume the Minister for the Envi spirit of the convention is complied with, without the inclusion of such changes which ronment (Senator Hill) has not changed his are innocent looking at first glance but insidi- mind since we last raised the matter. ous in their effect. The Democrats oppose Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister item 55, which is easily identifiable by us as for the Environment) (5.03 p.m.)—This is one another one of these escape hatches that the of the specific purposes of the bill. That is government is trying to sneak in. why we are here today. Therefore, we are not Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister inclined to agree to the amendment and for the Environment) (5.07 p.m.)—I think remove this aim or the consequent provisions there is something of a misunderstanding. The that are otherwise contained in the bill. attempt to omit ‘safely’ and substitute Amendment negatived. ‘efficiently’ has got to be read in conjunction Item 2 agreed to. with the intention also to include a new requirement—that is, that such a disposal The CHAIRMAN—The question is that would be consistent with the environmentally item 55 stand as printed. sound management of the waste. So we will Senator BELL (Tasmania) (5.04 p.m.)— have the requirement ‘efficiently’ and we will Notwithstanding the fine words of the have the requirement of disposal in an ‘envi- Minister for the Environment (Senator Hill) ronmentally sound’ way. We believe that that about seeking to comply with the convention, mix better accords with the terms of the con- the proposition from the government is to vention. substitute the word ‘safely’ with the word I refer the honourable senator to article ‘efficiently’. Of course, even somebody with 4.2(d) of the convention. That article requires little experience would be able to see that parties to ‘ensure that the trans-boundary ‘efficiently’ is a word which brings with it a Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 557 movement of hazardous wastes and other the continuation of old-fashioned techniques wastes is reduced to the minimum consistent and old-fashioned tactics. I would have with the environmentally sound and efficient thought that the minister, if the minister really management of such wastes.’ Again, my does have an interest in encouraging the concern, if we are to introduce our new sunrise industries that are burgeoning around requirement of ‘environmentally sound man- environmental engineering, is not encouraging agement’ and if we then leave the provision Australian developers into this industry and of safety, is that we run the risk of some trying, as I think Senator Chamarette said a ambiguity and, therefore, problems down the couple of minutes ago, to incorporate within track in interpretation. I would rather com- their processes the capacity to deal with mend to the Senate the mix of requirements waste. that we have suggested within the bill that we The scene in Australia abounds with exam- have put. I would hope that Senator Bell, ples, minister. I would not want to bore you when he reads both together, will regard that with too many of them, but I wonder if you as not only a satisfactory prescription but also noticed the Age newspaper of 26 June 1994. one that is in accordance with the provisions I am sure it would have fascinated you to of the convention. have read an article by Tanya Hudson, who Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— told us of a tiny firm pioneering toxic waste Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.09 disposal systems. We had a report of a Mel- p.m.)—Do I take it from Senator Hill’s bourne company with a turnover of, at the comments that he is likely to support the time, only $300,000 offering international subsequent amendment moved on behalf of chemical companies a world first solution to the Australian Democrats? I understood that getting rid of hazardous toxic waste. A Chel- from your comment, Senator. Is my under- tenham based engineering consultancy, Hyper- standing correct? not, had developed a treatment system which The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—The propo- transformed spent caustic waste from petro- sal as I understand it is that they will be leum products into a baking soda solution. It adding the words ‘and efficiently’. was a world first. That has continued to blossom and has demonstrated the capacity Senator BELL (Tasmania) (5.10 p.m.)— for profitable and, I dare say, economically When we reach amendment No. 4, if we lose efficient methods of dealing with waste in amendment No.3 there will be another propo- Australia on-site. sition. But at the moment I am arguing that the substitution by the government should not Those sorts of industries are only encour- be tolerated. I take the minister’s direction to aged if we follow through with the sorts of article 4 of the convention. I read it carefully. environmental management which a strict I have read it before. I do not accept that just application would enforce. Until 20 years ago by reading that in conjunction with what is spent caustic waste was loaded onto tankers proposed to be done caters for and dismisses and dumped at sea, precisely as is done today the argument that some producers of waste in Tasmania with jarosite, which is dumped might come up with that they have a more at the mouth of the Derwent, simply because efficient way of disposing by sending some- the previous government was too scared to thing overseas. I know that there are vested enforce the London dumping conventions to interests who would like to continue to do which they were a signatory on our behalf. that. I can predict that that argument would This timidity of our governments has stifled continue. the development of those industries which could employ people, could generate income I am surprised by a coalition which might for Australia and could maintain a much safer be identified with the desire to encourage and more agreeable environment. Australian business and enterprises and which would seek to be identified with the facilita- I am at a loss to understand why political tion of Australian industry proposing to allow parties which purport to support the develop- ment of industry do not grasp these oppor- 558 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 tunities with both hands and support such not be inclined to accept it. I do not think it industries. Here we have example after exam- is necessary. What I was saying was that the ple. I started with 1984, but I could have mix between ‘efficiently’ and the new provi- gone back decades before that. Here we have sion that we are seeking to insert, that the an opportunity—but what is the government ‘disposal would be consistent with the doing? It is seeking to establish little loop- environmentally sound management of the holes so that those who are lazy and are not waste’ is the best mix of provisions. As I interested in Australia’s development can understand it, it is the mix that the previous avoid their responsibilities. I plead with you, Labor government supported. Minister, don’t do it. Recognise how well Senator BELL (Tasmania) (5.20 p.m.)—I Australia could do if you don’t put in these move: sneaky little loopholes. 4. Schedule 1, item 55, page 27 (lines 15 to 16), Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— omit the item, substitute: Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.16 55 Paragraph 17(5)(a) p.m.)—I must say that the contribution that we have just heard from Senator Bell in After "safely", insert "and efficiently". relation to jarosite and sea dumping was most Having been put back in my box a little on unfair. Senator Bell would be well aware that the previous amendment I persist with Demo- jarosite is not dumped at the mouth of the crat amendment No. 4. If it is good enough to Derwent. If he is not, he should be. He would conduct an operation efficiently then, surely, also be well aware that during the life of the it is perfectly tolerable to subject that oper- last government in the last parliament, as the ation to safety considerations. environment minister I put a lot of effort and I would have thought there would be an energy into ensuring that we saw a co-treat- acceptance of that by responsible industry ment process established by the relevant operators, anyway. The whole bill is consider- company, Pasminco, a process that I think is ing matters which are described as hazardous. going to have some very significant long-term Surely it is not much to ask, when something benefits for the environment in this country. is hazardous, that you take a safe perspective If you were being fair, Senator Bell, you on it. All I am saying is that as well as the would acknowledge the role that was played requirement ‘efficiently’ we should include during the life of the last parliament in rela- the word ‘safely’. tion to ensuring that, in one of the very Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- important and difficult environment issues tralia) (5.22 p.m.)—I indicate that the Greens that we have had to face, decisions have been support all the amendments the Democrats made that bring about a very significant and have put, including this one. I think it is very long-term environmental benefit. So I open important, for the reasons I mentioned when my remarks by rejecting those rather talking to an earlier amendment—which miserable comments by Senator Bell in unfortunately was not passed. We cannot relation to that issue. afford to place ‘efficiently’ ahead of ‘safely’. I did ask Senator Hill whether my interpre- It is definitely preferable to have both those tation of his comments in response to Senator concepts because ‘efficiently’ has developed Bell’s original contribution on this amend- the connotations where industry and private ment indicated an intention on his part to enterprise, sometimes of economic necessity, support the second of the proposed Australian take short cuts and do not consider the cost to Democrat amendments. I accept Senator the environment and to the community of Bell’s comment that clearly we await the fate their practices. I believe that this word of this one. That was my interpretation of ‘efficiently’ simply allows them to get away your comments, Senator Hill. Could you with it. It has no place in the bill unless it is respond to me on that? qualified in the way Senator Bell’s amend- Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister ment has proposed. for the Environment) (5.18 p.m.)—I would Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 559

Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— Faulkner has now decided that he wants to Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.23 ensure that there are other concepts included p.m.)—I think there are 36 amendments to the within the amended provision that will add hazardous waste bill. This is one of only two ambiguity and, therefore, uncertainty to the that I do see some real value in, and the interpretation of this provision. arguments— Amendment agreed to. Senator Hill—It has taken you a long time Item 55, as amended, agreed to. to see it. Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- Senator FAULKNER—That is actually not tralia) (5.26 p.m.)—I move: a very fair comment. I think I have made the 7. Schedule 1, item 63, page 30 (line 5), omit point very clearly in relation to this particular paragraph 18A(4)(d). bill that the position of the opposition would be that we acknowledge the process of con- The heading of the proposed new section is: sultation that, as you are aware, the previous ‘Export permits for final disposal may be government was responsible for coordinating. granted only in exceptional circumstances.’ From what we see, there are some criteria I acknowledge that the new government has listed in subsections (1), (2), (3) and (4), but taken on board most of the initiatives that there is a rather extraordinary final paragraph were made in my previous incarnation as in subsection (4), namely (4)(d). It states: environment minister, and it would be churl- matters prescribed for the purposes of this para- ish of me not to acknowledge those. But I graph. must say that, at that time and now, I think there is some substance to the proposal that What we have is an exceptional purposes Senator Bell has put. We are yet to hear clause with a very general, totally non-specif- Senator Hill mount a persuasive case—that is ic out which allows the minister far too much perhaps not fair to him—in opposition to this licence if this entire section is to have any particular amendment, and I will be interested credibility at all. in listening to what he says. It is not reasonable in such an important I think Senator Bell’s proposal does have piece of legislation as this to leave a loophole some merit here and, as environment minister, which I think the Titanic could be sailed I would have been minded to support this through—with possibly equally disastrous amendment. I may be convinced by Senator results. I believe that it is reasonable to define Hill that this amendment ought not be sup- the circumstances in which the minister may ported, and I will certainly listen with great use her or his discretion to decide an export attention to the arguments that he presents. permit is necessary, and these circumstances should be clearly defined within the legisla- Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister tion. for the Environment) (5.25 p.m.)—The first argument is that what has been put before the The new paragraph leaves the description Senate by the government—which is what the far too open, and I think that these new previous government had put before the sections are utterly irrelevant if that paragraph Senate—is consistent with the advice of the is retained. My amendment is simply to delete consultancy group that the previous minister that general loophole at the bottom of some set up. I presume it was their advice on the sections which spell out with a degree of basis that the wording was, as I said a few latitude what the minister may or may not be minutes ago, in turn consistent with the able to do in terms of granting Basel export provisions of the convention. permits authorising the export of hazardous waste if the hazardous waste will be disposed What we are seeking to do with this bill is of by a method that is within the scope of to bring the provisions into line with the section A of annex 4 to the Basel convention. convention. I do not understand why Senator Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister 560 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 for the Environment) (5.28 p.m.)—I find the The CHAIRMAN—Senator Chamarette is argument curious. This seems to me to be to move an amendment to insert certain words quite a common way in which such provisions after item 82 on page 35 of the schedule. are drafted: that the act will set out specific tests, as it does, and provide the flexibility for Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- other matters that might be prescribed. The tralia) (5.33 p.m.)—I have been baffled by the reason, presumably, is that it is very difficult numbering system. I would like a little clarifi- to provide exhaustively for these matters and, cation whether this is to insert the public therefore, some flexibility in terms of other consultation clause at item 115, page 53. matters that may be prescribed seems to be— The CHAIRMAN—I was looking at page to me, anyway,—sound legislative practice. 35, Senator, to insert 82A. There is nothing inconsistent with the Senator CHAMARETTE—That is fine, I longstanding policy in this provision, which now understand. My amendments 10 to 22 are is to allow exports for final disposal only in all amendments involved with the prison exceptional circumstances. It seems to have sanctions that are in the current act and my been drafted in a way to enable matters that desire to amend them— might not have been considered in current Senator Hill—Amendments 10 to 21. times to be introduced at a later stage and to provide a sensible way in which they may be Senator CHAMARETTE—Yes. I think so introduced. that is because 10 to 21 refer to prison penal- Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- ties being converted to fines. But there is a tralia) (5.31 p.m.)—The minister is quite rationale for those amendments that leads on correct. It is typical drafting practice to to amendment 22 which imposes what I always leave open every exigency, but to believe are much more appropriate sanctions. leave open for every exigency in an excep- So amendments 10 to 22 actually involve tional circumstances clause is ridiculous. what I believe are more appropriate penalties for— The exceptions stated are worthy. For example, in 4A, whether there will be a The CHAIRMAN—There is no problem if significant risk of injury or damage to human you wish to move 10 to 22 inclusive altogeth- beings or the environment if the minister er, Senator. decides not to grant the permit; whether the Senator CHAMARETTE—That is what I waste is needed for research into improving thought I would do. Therefore, I seek leave to the management of hazardous waste; whether move my amendments 10 to 22 together. the waste is needed for testing for the pur- Leave granted. poses of improving the management of haz- ardous waste. You can fit in a lot there. It is Senator CHAMARETTE—I move: in the context of exceptional circumstances— 10. Schedule 1, item 105, page 41 (lines 26 to 27), not giving the minister the kind of licence omit "imprisonment for a term not exceeding that Sir Humphrey Appleby would desire. 2 years", substitute "a fine not exceeding 100 penalty units". Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.32 11. Schedule 1, item 105, page 42 (line 7), omit "merits criminal punishment", substitute p.m.)—While I do not find the argument "merits punishment under this section". curious that Senator Chamarette puts forward, I must say that I do not find it at all persua- 12. Schedule 1, item 105, page 42 (lines 17 to 18), omit "imprisonment for a term not exceeding sive. I agree with Senator Hill that this is an 5 years", substitute "a fine not exceeding 100 appropriate clause. It is sound legislative penalty units". practice and it will be supported by the 13. Schedule 1, item 105, page 43 (lines 11 to 12) opposition. omit "imprisonment for a term not exceeding Amendment negatived. 2 years", substitute "a fine not exceeding 100 penalty units". Item 63 agreed to. 14. Schedule 1, item 105, page 43 (line 22), omit Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 561

"merits criminal punishment", substitute fence under section 39, 40, 40A, 40B or "merits punishment under this section". 41A; 15. Schedule 1, item 105, page 44 (lines 1 to 2), the Minister must not grant a permit to, or must omit "imprisonment for a term not exceeding as soon as practicable revoke the permit of, as 5 years", substitute "a fine not exceeding 100 the case may be, a body corporate of which the penalty units". person is or becomes an executive officer (within the meaning of subsection 40B(6)). 16. Schedule 1, item 105, Page 44 (lines 28 to 29), omit "imprisonment for a term not ex- "(6) Where subsection (5) applies, the Minister ceeding 2 years", substitute "a fine not exceed- must not consider an application to grant the ing 100 penalty units". body corporate a permit until the expiration of a period, not exceeding 5 years, as determined by 17. Schedule 1, item 105, page 45 (line 8), omit the Minister. "merits criminal punishment", substitute "merits punishment under this section". Of course, I would be more than happy if 18. Schedule 1, item 105, page 45 (lines 18 to 19), anyone in the chamber wishing to support my omit "imprisonment for a term not exceeding amendment 22 dealt with it separately. But, 5 years", substitute "a fine not exceeding 100 as I am not in that happy position, I have penalty units". moved the amendments together and I will 19. Schedule 1, item 105, page 46 (line 2), omit speak to them together. I would ask to be "imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 alerted as to whether any senators in the years", substitute "a fine not exceeding 100 chamber intend to support the new penalties penalty points". which I wish to put in place as part of my 20. Schedule 1, item 105, page 46 (line 10), omit package. "merits criminal punishment", substitute "merits punishment under this section". Senator Faulkner—Keep batting on, Senator. 21. Schedule 1, item 105, page 46 (line 23), omit "imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 Senator CHAMARETTE—It is one of years", substitute "a fine not exceeding 100 these in honour of St Jude amendment pack- penalty points". ages. Perhaps the government should take it 22. Schedule 1, page 35, after item 82 (after line up in relation to Telstra, as St Jude is the 16), insert: patron saint of lost causes. But here I go with 82A After section 24: penalties. Insert: Amendments 10 to 21 address the issue of Revocation of permits and related disqualifica- prison penalties. Imprisonment is mentioned tions on conviction for offence in several different paragraphs—12 of them to be precise—in the bill. Phrases used in- (1) The Minister must, by written notice given to the person who is the holder of a Basel permit clude: ‘imprisonment for a term not exceeding or a special permit, revoke the permit if the two years’, ‘merits criminal punishment’, and person is convicted of an offence under section ‘imprisonment for a term not exceeding five 39, 40, 40A, 40B or 41A. years’. (2) The revocation takes effect on the day on So, basically, the criminal sanctions in this which the written notice is given to the person. bill relate to two years or five years imprison- (3) A written notice must include a statement of ment. As people will know well, I have an the reasons for the revocation. opposition to prison penalties being used as (4) Where a person’s permit is revoked under a measure of first resort than last resort, subsection (1) the Minister must not consider an which is what they should be. The reason application to grant the person a permit until the why I believe that imprisonment is not appro- expiration of a period, not exceeding 5 years, priate and that fines are more appropriate is determined by the Minister. that they have a different scale of operation (5) Where: and enable a conviction without overusing (a) a natural person’s permit is revoked under imprisonment. subsection (1); or People should be aware that prisons destroy (b) a natural person is convicted of an of- 562 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 lives and they are needed in very extreme corporation, and by so doing hope to threaten cases where the community requires physical or frighten a corporation into not being protection or the person involved is a physical prepared to sacrifice their managing directors danger. In such cases prison is worth contem- for the good cause of their profits and prac- plating. But it has been overused in a coer- tice, it would not be me who would be ac- cive, threatening or deterrent way in our cused of being naive. community and is not the best possible The principle is obvious. I want to retain penalty to impose. penalties for those offences but transfer them My amendments all revolve around the to the more appropriate penalty of fines. A principle that penalties should be relevant to conviction and the penalty of a fine will cause the offence under consideration. The threat of damage to individuals’ reputations and ca- imprisonment does not form an effective reers. There is no doubt about that. They may response to hazardous waste offences and is not cause as much damage as a term of simply not effective in protecting the com- imprisonment would. If that conviction is munity from the dangers of hazardous waste. there and it is accompanied with the amend- The case of corporations and individuals ment No. 22 components that I have referred committing offences related to hazardous to I believe that is a far more effective way waste is a clear example of non-violence as of dealing with offences under the Hazardous an effective strategy for change. If we simply Waste Act. responded to hazardous waste offences by The penalty is the revocation of permits and tossing the people responsible in gaol, whilst the related disqualification upon conviction of not addressing the inherent system that allows the offence. What happens is that if an indi- the offences to occur, we would achieve vidual is convicted of an offence under nothing. If we simply give a corporation or an sections 39, 40, 40A, 40B or 41A then the individual a fine as retribution we end up in minister must in writing revoke the permit the patently undesirable position of those given to the holder of the Basel permit or bodies, in effect, paying for permission to special permit. The revocation takes effect on pollute and maim with toxic wastes. The end the day on which the written notice is given result is that companies simply budget for to the person. A written notice must include fines and continue on their merry way. a statement of the reasons for the revocation. I can understand that people have some Where a person’s permit is revoked, under concerns that we are taking prison penalties subsection 1 the minister must not consider an out of the bill and replacing them with fines. application to grant the person a permit until I hope I have explained that the underlying the expiration of a period, not exceeding five reason for this amendment is that prison years, to be determined by the minister. This should be a penalty of last resort. The coali- applies where a natural person’s permit is tion government in Western Australia purports revoked under subsection 1 or a natural to see the wisdom of this principle. As I person is convicted of an offence under mentioned earlier, the rationale is that impris- sections 39 to 41A. This also applies to the onment is not an effective form of punishment body corporate. The minister must not con- or deterrent, for the vast number of well sider an application to grant the body corpo- documented reasons I have mentioned, and rate a permit until the expiration of a period, only has a place in the justice system in that not exceeding five years, as determined by the it can be used to protect the community from minister. individuals who pose direct physical danger to the community or to themselves. I have replaced the five-year imprisonment hollow threat that may never get carried out You may argue that hazardous waste is one with a five-year penalty that is appropriate to of the most direct physical dangers to a the crime. It is a crime for a corporation or an community. I would argue that if you only individual who has a degree of responsibility imprison one individual from a corporation in the corporation to impose a hazardous without actually touching the operation of that waste threat on the community. It is appropri- Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 563 ate that the penalty that they receive fits the thought that it is appropriate to retain a crime. Nothing will prevent damage to the definition of severity which is still accepted environment less than penalties which are by the community. seen as token penalties. Having worked in prisons for some time, I The effective alternative to the old model would very much like we as a society to of imprisonment and fines is to recognise that question what we do with corporate crimi- penalties must embody three principles—they nals—whether it is appropriate to pursue must be immediate, they must be appropriate imprisonment or whether other sanctions are and they must be seen to be fair. That is why, available to the community. I think that is an in line with these principles, our model extensive debate which we should pursue, but proposes the immediate revocation of Basel I repeat that I do not think it is appropriate to or special permits for offences under particu- debate that at the moment. lar sections of the bill from the day of ascer- While I am advised by those who have an tainment of the convictions. This revocation interest in the subject of this bill that we must be accompanied by written notice stating should underline the severity of crimes the reasons. Basel or special permits will then against the environment—which includes not be re-issued to that person or the company people and therefore is a risk to the communi- of which that person is or becomes an exec- ty, as Senator Chamarette admitted—any utive officer for a time determined by the transgressions here could well provide a minister, but not exceeding five years. greater risk than many other actions. While Despite the fact that I have already had those who are interested want to see this advance notice that my colleagues are not severity underlined, I will agree with them. going to be persuaded by my arguments, I We will not be supporting the amendments. want to put on the public record that we Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister cannot continue to maintain in our legislation for the Environment) (5.47 p.m.)—There have offences that are meaningless, offences that been interesting contributions. I would not are ineffective and penalties that do not have expected to hear a criminology debate address the problems that they purport to rather than debate on the Hazardous Waste address. I believe serious consideration should (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Amend- be given to amendments 10 to 22 and I seek ment Bill. I ask Senator Chamarette in par- the support of the chamber for them. ticular to take into account that this is just a Senator BELL (Tasmania) (5.44 p.m.)— discretion to impose a gaol sentence. It seems The Democrats will not be agreeing to the to us that in rare cases gaol would be an amendments moved by Senator Chamarette, appropriate punishment. I am advised that the although I have some sympathy for the provisions are consistent with Commonwealth argument that prison would not necessarily be criminal law policy generally and with policy an appropriate penalty for contravention of in other jurisdictions. the convention or the provisions in this bill. With regard to automatic revocation and I think we are coming to learn as a society disqualification, section 24 of the legislation that prisons are brutalising places and, as already provides for revocation. We believe conducted at the moment, are less likely to that this provision is wide enough to allow rehabilitate criminals than a number of the the minister to consider the fact that a breach other options that we should consider. has occurred. Section 17(1)(c) of the legisla- But I do not think that debate is an appro- tion also allows for an applicant’s previous priate one to conduct within this bill. The fact record to be considered in deciding whether is that we are trying to define some sanctions to grant a permit. Therefore, it is not appro- which should apply to people who are in priate for there to be mandatory revocation breach of this bill and define the severity and and disqualification. Assisting provisions the seriousness of those breaches. We have allow the particular circumstances to be found from our discussions with people who considered. are affected by and interested in this that it is 564 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Amendments negatived. this amendment to the Hazardous Waste (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Amend- Item 105 agreed to. ment Bill. I bring to this discussion the strong Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- argument that was put forward to the Senate tralia) (5.48 p.m.)—I move: Standing Committee on the Environment, Recreation and the Arts when it was conduct- 23. Schedule 1, item 115, page 53 (after line 30), ing its inquiry into waste disposal. As I think after section 56A(4) insert: more about this bill and what it does and does Public Consultation not have in it, I wonder whether the govern- (4A) Before making an arrangement covered ment read the report of that committee. I was by paragraph (1)(d) the Minister must a member of the committee. I was fascinated ensure full public consultation and in- by some of the information that came to the volvement with the development, posi- committee. tioning and design safety of hazardous waste disposal facilities. It was a fortunate committee in that it was provided with a great deal of background I think an omission of public consultation in information from the inquiry into intractable something of this importance is inexcusable. wastes. The previous compilation of informa- We need public consultation with regard to tion by that committee involved Professor siting, particularly of waste disposal sites. I Ben Selinger. I am sure that—even though I can give a Western Australian example. cannot say the title—people know the com- The Mount Walton site is an example of a mittee I am referring to. The inquiry which lack of public consultation or willingness to followed Professor Selinger’s inquiry was hear the concerns of local people before provided with a great deal of information making moves to have low level radioactive from that previous inquiry. We were also waste not only sited there but carried there privileged to travel to other disposal facilities from all over the state. There is a particular and sites of research into disposal facilities. concern about the site not only because of the We learned that those materials which had dangers at the particular site, which I believe previously been described as hazardous wastes was chosen because of its dryness and ar- had now become resources. Probably one of idity—it has just had record rainfall—but also the best examples was at Wollongong, where because of transportation to the site. For Emeritus Professor Warner, who has an example, low level radioactive waste will be international reputation as an engineer and as carried from Pinjarra right up to Perth, then a developer of technologies, especially in the out to Kalgoorlie and then out to Mount steel industry, had found it very difficult to Walton. This is one illustration of where stop working for some time after his retire- public consultation should be allowed not just ment because his developments had attracted at the site but also at the area where the such international attention as to keep him radioactive waste is being produced. thoroughly occupied. The possibility of having Australia’s nation- One of his developments involved the reuse al radioactive waste dump being sited at of furnace dust at the BHP sites. This furnace Mount Walton has caused great distress to the dust had been a particularly difficult problem local community and council. The recognition to deal with. The hazardous waste had accu- within this bill of the basic need for public mulated to such an extent that it had become consultation both here and overseas with an economic or efficiency problem for the respect to this generally would, I believe, be corporations involved. It could not be dis- of considerable public interest. The communi- posed of easily. Professor Warner was able to ty would greet it very enthusiastically. I think incorporate that raw material or hazardous that is the reason why it ought to be support- waste—depending on your point of view— ed as an amendment. with another waste or raw material, the Senator BELL (Tasmania) (5.51 p.m.)— sewage which had become a problem for the The Australian Democrats strongly support city of Wollongong and which was difficult Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 565 to dispose of. By combining two items which because those who assume that we have waste previously had been defined as waste, he was to deal with are usually ignorant of the able to redefine them as a resource and thoughts that are in other people’s minds. To produce an economic benefit. get those other thoughts exposed in the widest That little story is meant to illustrate the possible way is to have community consulta- futility of following a path of building a tion. It is through the widest possible con- facility to dispose of what we define as sideration of alternatives that we eventually hazardous waste because, at that very time of arrive at uses which could provide economic the committee’s inquiry, we were seeing the benefit for the whole of Australia. death of the proposal to build a high tempera- With the reasons I have for supporting this ture incinerator somewhere in Australia to inclusion of community consultation, I really dispose of hazardous waste. If that facility ask the government and the opposition to had been built, we would have become lazy carefully consider what advantages could in our imaginations and people such as come to Australia through reconsidering Professor Warner would not have been en- whether we actually need to just dispose of couraged to think of alternative possible uses. hazardous waste. There is a myriad of exam- Luckily, that high temperature incinerator was ples—and I recommend to all senators the not built and many items which had been report of the environment, recreation and the described as hazardous waste found them- arts committee on waste disposal to see what selves being redefined as useful resources. I an impressive list of economic and beneficial speak of not only the PCBs, which supposed- uses have been found for those materials ly were an intractable problem, but also such which were previously described as waste. I things as the example I gave: the furnace dust think we need only to look at our own house- at Wollongong. holds to recognise that we are doing useful things with things which were previously The capacity of ventures such as the considered to be inconvenient waste. When CSIRO’s plasma arc development, the possi- we build a facility, we cut off that option. bility of the very small ball mill disposal When we build a facility, we build something technologies and many others which are which costs us money to construct, maintain mentioned in that report are not reflected in and supervise. Yet, if we consult before we the assumptions that underlie this part of this build that, we run the opportunity of finding bill. The assumption here is that we will have alternative uses for those wastes. hazardous waste which has to be disposed of. I agree with Senator Chamarette that, if there Amendment negatived. is any disposal facility to be constructed, there Item 115 agreed to. needs to be full community consultation because, if it is proper consultation, we could The CHAIRMAN—We are now dealing well provide the opportunity for alternatives with item 119 on page 54 of the schedule. to the disposal being assumed. We could well The question is that Senator Chamarette’s hear of other technologies; we could well give amendment No. 24 be agreed to. the time to people who have the capacity to Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- recognise the waste as a resource. That is tralia) (6.01 p.m.)—I am not sure about this surely the most appropriate way to treat amendment of mine. I suspect it is a amend- waste. ment consequent upon ones that have already Professor Warner, in the report I referred to, been defeated, so I am not planning to discuss was able to bring a suggestion to the commit- it. tee that there is no such thing as waste, that The CHAIRMAN—We now move on to it is merely material for which we have yet to item 120 on pages 55 to 57 of the schedule. find a useful purpose. I think that if we adopt The question is that proposed section 58A that practice we will be able to find that stand as printed. useful purpose through consultation. It is the Senator BELL (Tasmania) (6.01 p.m.)—I consultation which is extremely important 566 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 am going to wimp out as well. I understand ease about the concerns we have had regard- there has been an agreement that the Austral- ing this clause. ian Democrats’ proposed amendments Nos 5, It may or may not mean that Senator Hill 6 and 7 be subsumed by Senator Chamarette’s did mislead the Senate in his second reading substitute amendment No. 25, which has been speech. Certainly we would feel comfortable circulated. that he could expunge any contempt of the The CHAIRMAN—Yes, that is the case. Senate involved if there were an agreement to I just wanted to hear it from you to know that this amendment, which makes it crystal clear we are all of one mind on the matter. that the standing under the Administrative Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- Decisions (Judicial Review) Act is not being tralia) (6.02 p.m.)—I move: limited but is being extended. 25. Schedule 1, item 120, page 57 (after line 8), Senator BELL (Tasmania) (6.05 p.m.)—In at end of section 58A, add: case the Leader of the Opposition in the (8) To avoid doubt, this section is intended to Senate (Senator Faulkner) misunderstands—I extend, but not limit, the meaning of the do not want to be miserable about this—I expression person aggrieved by a decision. want to be quite clear that I am angry and disappointed. I know that this amendment is This amendment has recently been circulated to add No. 8, but I want to refer in particular and it is a substitute amendment; therefore I to No. 2. I was hoping that we would not will not continue with amendments Nos 26, forget Ok Tedi, Maralinga and Woomera and 27 and 28. This is a very important amend- that we would recognise there are times and ment. If this amendment is not agreed to, I instances when it is not necessary to be an will continue with those other amendments. Australian citizen to be aggrieved or adverse- This amendment refers to ‘standing’ and to ly affected by the operation of the provisions clause 58A of the bill. The heading on clause of this bill. Defining ‘standing’ as requiring 58A is ‘Extended standing of individuals and one to be an Australian citizen limits greatly organisations to seek judicial review’. the opportunity of people who are affected or As honourable senators know, I gave notice who could be greatly affected by these oper- of a motion expressing concern that Senator ations. Hill may have inadvertently misled the Sen- I am very angry that there is an attempt ate, because he announced in his second here to limit the application. I remind those reading speech that the intent of this clause Australians who at various times have been was to extend standing. But there is an ambi- affronted or annoyed by the activities of the guity about the way these clauses are phrased, British government at Maralinga or Woomera, such that they can be seen to limit standing if or by the activities of any other governments they are interpreted in a particular manner. at any other places—whether it be Pine Gap The word ‘extension’ can mean two things. or any number of places—of the feelings they It can mean that the Administrative Decisions have had about those actions and how we (Judicial Review) Act ‘standing’ definition is must appear to people such as those affected being extended, such that there are further by the Ok Tedi operations and any number of categories of standing available, or it can other operations by Australians where they simply mean that a substitute definition is should be challenged. If what we are doing being put in place which in some places here is to restrict standing to Australian extends standing and in other places limits citizens, then we are allowing other people to standing. be affronted by our actions whilst having no This amendment will clarify that the content recourse whatsoever. of this clause actually matches the intent of I think this will be a disgraceful part of the clause, which I have been assured is to Australia’s legislative history if we put in here relate to extended standing of individuals and that it is only Australians citizens who can organisation to seek judicial review. If that is grizzle in any way about the actions of the case, then obviously we will be put at Australian corporations or individuals. I Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 567 recognise that in opposing this I am doing it does accurately reflect the original intention into the wind. But towards Senator Chama- of the drafting of the bill. I do not know rette’s amendment—which I understand does whether Senator Hill would accept that point, have some support—it goes some way in but that is certainly my understanding in support. I will support that amendment and relation to this particular amendment. If express my disgust at the way that this section Senator Chamarette is of the view that the has included limitation to Australian citizens intention is not accurately reflected sufficient- only. ly in the language of the bill and, therefore, Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister wishes to make it explicit in the way she has for the Environment) (6.09 p.m.)—All I want proposed, I do not believe the opposition to say is that I thought it an extraordinary sort would object to that in this particular case. of tool of debate of Senator Chamarette’s, in Senator CHAMARETTE (Western Aus- order to advise the chamber that she had a tralia) (6.12 p.m.)—I just rise to my defence different interpretation of these provisions because I think there has been some implica- from ours, to accuse me of misleading the tion that I was standing in danger of Senate and say that I should come in here and misleading the Senate. I think there is room purge my contempt. I suppose she is entitled for some explanation here. Notwithstanding to use what tools of debate she feels advance the advice from the Attorney-General’s her cause. But it did strike me as an unusual Department, I have received conflicting mechanism in these circumstances. advice from various lawyers and barristers Whilst not wanting to demonstrate any around the country in relation to the interpre- disquiet on the law, I am nevertheless com- tation of this act. I think that in itself is forted to see that the Attorney-General’s ground for receiving very full assurances and Department also agrees with our interpretation clarification on the public record of the intent and not hers. I will read the second paragraph of the government in this legislation. of a two-paragraph advice from P. Abbey, But I would just explain to Senator Hill— Counsel, Family and Administrative Law because I am not intending to pursue it down Branch, Attorney-General’s Department. It any other avenue—that in his second reading states: speech he made an internally contradictory I confirm that clause 58A operates only to extend statement which I believed deserved explan- the entitlement to standing in relation to the ation. He said: relevant decisions. It does not operate to limit Standing under the Administrative Decisions current standing rules operating under the general (Judicial Review) Act 1977 has been extended by law. This is ensured by including the opening word providing standing for Australian organisations and ‘Extended’ in the heading together with the words associations which have matters which relate to the ‘is taken to be’ in subclauses 58A(2) and (3). act as part of their object or purpose. This will It would seem that a better interpretation is provide further legislative clarity to the standing that Senator Chamarette has misled the Senate rules for the purposes of the ADJR Act and is an in the notice of motion she has given. But, extension of the standing rules already recognised in recent cases under other similar legislation. The because of my good nature, I will not require standing provisions in the bill relate only to persons her to come in here and purge her contempt. or organisations living or incorporated in Australia. Senator Faulkner—I wonder whether To say that ‘the standing rules are extended’ Senator Hill would be willing to table that and that ‘standing is extended’ are two differ- advice from which he quoted. ent matters. Senator HILL—I have been requested to I am quite prepared to accede that the way table this advice. I therefore will table it. in which this bill was printed extends the Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— standing rules of the ADJR. What I wanted to Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (6.11 seek was the reassurance that we are not p.m.)—It certainly is my understanding, in being given, by this extension of standing relation to this amendment that has now been rules, a substitute definition which actually proposed by Senator Chamarette, that it really limits the standing available under the ADJR. 568 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

The standing available under the ADJR does Motion (by Senator Kemp)—by leave— not exclude people or organisations who live agreed to: or are incorporated outside Australia; but That senators be discharged from and appointed these extended standing rules appear to limit to committees as follows: the standing by the wording of this act. Community Affairs Legislation Committee— There is nothing clearer. The clause in the Appointed: Senators Knowles, Patterson and amendment that I have had circulated contains Woods the heading mentioned in the Attorney- Participating member: Senator Harradine General’s advice, namely, ‘extended standing Community Affairs References Committee— of individuals and organisations to seek Appointed: Senator Colston judicial review’. It also contains the state- ment, ‘to avoid doubt this section is intended Discharged: Senator Reynolds to extend but not limit the meaning of the Participating member: Senator Harradine expression "person aggrieved by the deci- Economics Legislation Committee— sion"’. That refers to the standing of some- Appointed: Senators Chapman, Ferguson and body under the AD(JR) Act. Watson I hope the advice I have received has been Participating member: Senator Harradine correct. I hope that will put to rest the con- Substitute member: Senator Crane to replace cerns of the community. If it does not, then Senator Watson on matters covered by the I am afraid that the whole matter will need to Industrial Relations portfolio be revisited because there is certainty about Employment, Education and Training Legislation what was needed. This has been the subject Committee— of some negotiation. It may be easier to Appointed: Senators Campbell (to 30 June 1996, simply amend section 58A(2) to say that an Ferris from 1 July 1996), Tierney and Troeth individual is also taken to be a person ag- Participating member: Senator Harradine grieved, and to amend section 3 to include the Environment, Recreation, Communications and the words, ‘An organisation or association, wheth- Arts Legislation Committee— er incorporated or not, is also taken to be a Appointed: Senators Baume (to 30 June 1996), person aggrieved by the decision’. Ian Macdonald (from 1 July 1996), Patterson and Troeth My understanding is that this amendment Participating members: Senators Boswell, addresses that issue and completes it. I am Harradine, Ian Macdonald (to 30 June 1996, very pleased to hear that it has support in the Coonan and Eggleston from 1 July 1996) and Senate. Tierney Amendment agreed to. Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Item 120, as amended, agreed to. Arts References Committee— Participating member: Senator Ferguson Bill, as amended, agreed to. Finance and Public Administration Legislation Bill reported with amendments; report Committee— adopted. Appointed: Senators Gibson, Ian Macdonald and Third Reading Watson Participating members: Senator Harradine Bill (on motion by Senator Hill) read a third time. Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee— COMMITTEES Appointed: Senators MacGibbon, Teague (to 30 June 1996), Ellison (from 1 July 1996), and Membership Troeth The PRESIDENT—I have received letters Participating member: Senators Harradine and from party leaders and independent senators (Eggleston from 1 July 1996) nominating senators to be members of various Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References committees. Committee— Participating member: Senator Harradine Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 569

Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee— listing of particular products for supply in Appointed: Senators Abetz, Ellison and O’Chee Australia have been delayed. This has in- Participating member: Senators Harradine and curred considerable financial distress to the (Coonan from 1 July 1996) applicants waiting to have their products Regulations and Ordinances—Standing Commit- listed prior to marketing. tee— These applications comprise relatively Appointed: Senators O’Chee, Patterson and simple and low risk products such as vita- Tierney mins, minerals, herbal, homoeopathic and sun Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legisla- screen products. The government believes tion Committee— that, given the long gestation of this bill, it is Appointed: Senators Calvert, Crane and Mc- in the public interest to relieve this financial Gauran distress as soon as possible. Participating members: Senators Chapman, (Eggleston and Ferris from 1 July 1996), The government welcomes manageable Harradine, Ian Macdonald, and Tierney legislation and particularly welcomes the Scrutiny of Bills—Standing Committee— innovations contained in this bill. We note that last year the then government—and now Appointed: Senators Campbell, Crane and Sandy Macdonald opposition—which first moved this bill also actively promoted the measures contained in Discharged: Senator Colston this legislation. Uranium Mining and Milling—Select Committee— The bill has now been reintroduced for a Appointed: Senators Bell, Chapman, Ferguson, Sandy Macdonald and Margetts. third time in this place in a form which will facilitate its passage by accommodating the THERAPEUTIC GOODS needs of the Senate as well as the conventions AMENDMENT BILL 1996 (No. 2) of the House. Second Reading Senator Faulkner—I do not want to interrupt Senator Woods but it certainly was Debate resumed from 7 May, on motion by the understanding of the opposition that Senator Kemp: Senator Woods would be closing the debate That this bill be now read a second time. on behalf of the government. We have at least Senator WOODS (New South Wales— one opposition speaker—maybe more—who Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for wishes to speak. I seek your ruling, Mr Health and Family Services) (6.19 p.m.)—Mr President. I am not intending to interrupt President, this bill is another example of the Senator Woods in his important contribution, bipartisan approach of this government to but I do want to clarify this matter. improving the health of all Australians. This The PRESIDENT—I did not have a list in particular bill has had an increasingly tortuous front of me. When Senator Woods rose I history since it was first introduced into called him, assuming that he was the next parliament by the former government early in speaker on the list. I was not aware that he 1995. It was initially part of an omnibus bill, was closing the debate. If you are closing the the Human Services and Health Legislation debate, Senator Woods, I suggest we go back Amendment Bill (No. 1) 1995, which was to the other speakers and ask you to come subsequently divided into more manageable back. parts. Senator WOODS—I am happy to seek This bill incorporates and reintroduces the leave to continue my remarks at a later time. provisions of the Therapeutic Goods Amend- ment Bill 1995 which was passed by both Leave granted. sides of the House of Representatives on 28 Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (6.21 September 1995, but which was still awaiting p.m.)—I rise to support the Therapeutic consideration by the Senate when the parlia- Goods Amendment Bill on behalf of the ment rose at the conclusion of the 1995 sit- opposition. The Therapeutic Goods Act 1989, tings. As a result, over 600 applications for which this bill seeks to amend, allows for a 570 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 national system of uniform controls for that is, the definition of ‘food’ was not set out therapeutic goods: that is, goods that are within it. This item will amend the act to represented in any way to be or likely to be make it absolutely clear what ‘food’ is. You used for therapeutic use. Therapeutic use is might have thought that this was unnecessary, defined as ‘diagnosis curing or alleviating but there have been a number of disputes and disease, ailment, injury or defect’. The origi- court cases arising from this uncertainty in nal act was established with a view to control- Western Australia. ling all therapeutic goods used in or from Item 10 of the bill inserts a new section Australia. Parameters were set out to establish 19A into the act. This provides the secretary a national standard for managers encompass- of the department of health, the national ing quality, safety, labelling and advertising. manager of the Therapeutic Goods Adminis- The Therapeutic Goods Amendment Bill is tration or the director of the drug safety and designed to update and finetune the Thera- evaluation section of that administration with peutics Goods Act. The purpose of the bill is the authority to grant temporary approval in essentially twofold. Firstly, the bill will writing for the supply and, if needed, importa- provide logical, workable guidelines for short- tion of certain specific therapeutic goods in term approvals of unevaluated drugs. This is extraordinary circumstances. I have outlined for when they are required in place of existing these circumstances before. They include registered drugs which are either unavailable when extreme shortages, or a total absence, or or in very short supply. Measures are taken a discontinued line of certain registered drugs within the bill to guarantee that this provision occurs and when no equivalent registered is used only in extreme cases and only when drug is already available. This will occur only absolutely necessary. Safeguards will assure when an application for registration for the that this system is not deliberately abused, drug or good in question has already been and well considered limits will assure that the lodged in the full and proper form. The system is not over used. secretary reserves the right to impose condi- Secondly, the bill provides a revised system tions on the approval, including the placement which allows for listing of standard over-the- of time restraints. counter drugs, such as herbal remedies and Item 11 of this bill inserts new subsections vitamin preparations for minor medical condi- 20(1) and 20(2) into the act. This will make tions or personal treatments, a system that has it an offence for the deliberate and reckless come to be known as listing. There are other export, import, manufacture or supply for provisions in the bill which I will not go into human use of drugs or goods—as defined in detail and the government may wish to within the act—without the authority of the take us through them. act and where approval has not been granted The bill provides a clear distinction between by the secretary. ‘food’ and ‘therapeutic goods’. It also estab- Item 36 of the bill inserts a new section lishes a new Therapeutic Goods Administra- 30A into the original act. This ensures a tion trust account. Some minor discussion is system is in place for the recovery of thera- taking place about whether that will bring this peutic goods that are not registered, listed or bill within the scope of a money bill, but I authorised under sections 19 or 19A of the understand that that view has been rejected by act. The onus for that recovery rests with the the government. The bill also converts the sponsor. I suppose some people would find it existing penalties in the act into penalty units. quite extraordinary that, to date, there has Further, it provides accountability for spon- been no capacity to recover goods that have sors of unlawfully supplied goods—for exam- not been registered in compliance with this ple, those that are not registered. act. I would like to mention briefly some of the Items 49 and 50 of the bill replace a num- specific provisions of the bill. I shall start ber of old sections and put in place new with item 2 of the bill. The original TGA sections 45A, 46, 46A, 46B and 47. These in excluded food from the operation of the act— large part relate to the enforcement and Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 571 compliance of the act, and I do not intend to usual courtesies be extended to him. I call go into these in any further detail. Senator Conroy. Needless to say, this bill does not amend Senator CONROY (Victoria) (6.29 p.m.)— the act in any major way, but it does involve I would like to begin by thanking the Victori- a slight restructuring and renumbering. The an branch of the Australian Labor Party for bill was put forward by the previous Labor giving me the opportunity to represent the government and, as such, we see these meas- people of Victoria. This is an enormous ures as being necessary and part of the good responsibility which I will endeavour to fulfil. legislative program that we were unfortunately It is certainly daunting following in the unable to bring to this chamber because of footsteps of Gareth Evans. Gareth, as you this year’s untimely events. know, has gone to that other place. I believe, Debate (on motion by Senator Woods) however, that it is important to note some of adjourned. his achievements. Gareth held a number of portfolios with ORDER OF BUSINESS distinction, but it is his success as a foreign Government Business minister that stands out. Never has Australia’s standing been so high on the international Motion (by Senator Woods) agreed to: stage. His dedication to finding a resolution That intervening business be postponed till after to the Cambodian issue has been acknow- consideration of government business order of the ledged worldwide. His attempts to reform the day No. 5 (Governor-General’s Opening Speech— United Nations have had wide support, and Address-in-Reply). his commitment to the passage of the Mabo GOVERNOR-GENERAL’S SPEECH legislation in this chamber is one of his personal triumphs. Gareth has not retired from Address-in-Reply politics, so I simply wish him well in his new Debate resumed from 7 May, on motion by position. I am sure that when Labor regains Senator Teague: government, it will be in no small part due to That the following Address-in-Reply be agreed his efforts. to: Representing the Labor Party has been a To His Excellency the Governor-General lifelong ambition. It is the party which is MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY— committed to working Australians. Australia is faced with a critical choice in 1996: it can We, the Senate of the Commonwealth of Austral- ia in Parliament assembled, desire to express our turn inwards and seek to insulate and isolate loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign and to itself from what is happening in our region thank Your Excellency for the speech which you and around the world or it can choose to meet have been pleased to address to Parliament. the challenges of the next century. upon which Senator Faulkner moved by way In the 1950s and 1960s, Australia made the of amendment: wrong choice. The cost of these decisions is At the end of motion add ", and the Senate is of still being felt decades later. In that period, the opinion that no part of Telstra should be Australia slid from No. 2 to No. 15 on the sold". international comparison of living standards. The PRESIDENT—As Senator Tierney is By the mid-1980s we had slipped further to in continuation, I would normally call him No. 23. It is interesting to observe that, during first. However, I understand that Senator the 35 years, Labor was in government for a Tierney has agreed to an informal arrange- combined total of only five of those years. On ment whereby he will concede the call until the basis of that, it is difficult to take serious- after Senator Conroy has made his first ly any attempts to portray the Whitlam and speech. With the concurrence of the Senate, Hawke governments as responsible for the I therefore propose to call Senator Conroy. malaise of that period. Before I do so, I remind honourable senators The growing internationalisation of our that this is his first speech and I ask that the economy presents opportunities and challen- 572 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 ges. We must grasp these opportunities if we at 25 per cent of average weekly earnings; are to sustain our living standards and our year 12 retention rates increasing from 33 per children’s futures. We must continue to push cent to 80 per cent; the family allowance our economy on an export orientated growth supplement; affordable health care for all path. The last 13 years have seen a transfor- Australians; an award system that protected mation of our economy. Many would suggest low paid workers with regular safety net that this has been too much too quickly. I say, increases; a progressive taxation system; Australia cannot afford to wait; survival is not training opportunities through Working compulsory. Nation; superannuation for all Australians; The coalition government must build on and many other reforms. these changes if Australia is to forge ahead. I have always been committed to providing It must not give in to sectional interests that equality of opportunity. I reject the notion of want to protect their economic position at the equality of outcome. To me, this is the critical expense of all Australians. This process will divide between a social democrat and a require endurance. It may even require, as Sir socialist. The Labor Party’s next challenge is Humphrey Appleby would say, some coura- to confront the changing structure of Aust- geous political decisions. I believe the ralia’s work force. Technological change is Hawke-Keating governments made some forcing the pace as more people work part courageous political decisions. time and from home. A new type of poverty I was recently lucky enough to visit the is beginning to emerge and its impact will European Parliament and was briefed on the need to be assessed carefully. We are seeing latest developments in the European Union. a growing gap between the information rich What struck me most was the maturity with and the information poor. This has many which both major parties in Germany ap- implications for public policy. How do we proached the political process, the respect for ensure that every Australian child has the rival political institutions and the role they education including the standard of literacy play in this democratic process. There was no they need to be able to use the new informa- narrow, vindictive, small-mindedness of spirit tion technologies? How do we ensure that all in their politics and no desire to crush oppos- Australians have access to the information ing structures. There was plenty of cut and carriers that will revolutionise the way we thrust and political byplay, but the national learn, work and enjoy ourselves? More practi- interest was the No. 1 priority. cally, what can we do to make sure Austral- ians have the skills and backup they need to It is my firm belief that, if Australia is to be leaders in developing and providing these progress economically and socially, we must new technologies? maintain a bipartisan approach to issues like APEC. This is the issue which will determine We cannot give up on economic reform or the living standards of our children. We must restructuring our economy. Jobs depend on engage our Asian neighbours and continue to it—Australian jobs. And without jobs, there integrate our economy in the region. We must is no effective social reform, no future we can take the lead on the proposed social clause, look to with any confidence. There is no which deals with issues such as prison labour, doubt that the restructuring we on this side of child labour, safety standards and freedom of politics have undertaken in government has association. APEC means jobs for our future, been essential and constructive. But it is also but the standard of these is in our hands. true that, at times, Australians have asked Earlier, I said that this process would themselves, ‘What is it all about? Where are involve challenges. The role of the Labor we heading?’ At times they have wondered Party is to ensure economic security for all whether our community is losing something Australians. The Hawke and Keating govern- in a rush to be lean, efficient and competitive. ments had a proud record in this field, which My family lives in the north of England and I describe as the social wage. This record long ago learned what blind adherence to includes: pensions increased and maintained rational economics meant—a blindness made Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 573 all the more brutal through being untempered expect governments will increasingly be by any thought of helping the people hurt by called to account on that score. Their actions reform or change. Margaret Thatcher drew a will increasingly be judged by the civilising line across the middle of England and if you influence they bring to our society. We, as lived above it, ‘you can make your own politicians, will be increasingly asked to arrangements’. Meanwhile, mines closed, explain what we do in those terms. shipyards closed, factories shut their gates. There is no hiding the fact that there is a You do not just see the consequences in the growing unease in our community about the north now. I was in London just before direction our society is taking. We all feel Christmas. When people refer to the 5 o’clock that, particularly now, in the wake of the rush hour, they are not talking about the dreadful tragedy at Port Arthur. There is a traffic. They are talking about the homeless need now, if not for moral leadership, then for rushing to put their blankets and cardboard our citizens to have more say, to have more down into the doorways of the newly closed influence, in public matters. shops. Thank God we have a more compas- Australians increasingly will demand more sionate society here, and it is to Labor’s great say in the way their children are educated, in credit that the profound economic changes it what is shown on television, in how they has wrought have always been accompanied work, in how their institutions or governments with a determination to ensure that those perform and respond to them. I say to the affected have been supported and helped to coalition government: the Australian people find other work or training. gave you their trust on 2 March. You must What more needs to be done? We must manage these inevitable changes for the never lose sight of the fact that economic benefit of all, not for the few. restructuring is something we do for the I am particularly proud that I have worked national good. That means that there is a for the Transport Workers Union for the last national obligation to support people dis- four years. The TWU is a proud union which, placed in this process. We must all be con- despite its difficulties, has survived and scious too that change needs to be better prospered in recent times. Its success has been explained and debated. It may be that we due to the dedication of its officials and must look again at the nature of change and delegates right across Victoria. No union in each case ask, ‘What are we really trying today can survive and grow unless it retains to achieve?’ Is an iota of efficiency here the active support of its members. reward enough for the loss of employees’ There are many friends at the union who I family time? Does a free market there mean would like to thank for their support, but I am the production of socially undesirable goods, sure that if I tried to list them all I would or the encouragement of goods produced by inevitably leave someone out. I will, however, socially undesirable means like sweated single out the secretary, Bill Noonan, who has labour, child labour or unsafe work practices? led the union through enormously difficult Do we want to encourage industries that times with skill, dedication and patience—and need a work force trained simply to follow that was only when dealing with me! I would orders, not to think for themselves? Is cheaper not be here today without Bill’s support and and faster really an alternative to better? friendship. I look forward to being presented Everything a government does is about with my 25-year honorary membership certifi- nurturing and protecting a healthy society. It cate of the TWU in the future. is not about efficiency. It is not about growth. I mentioned earlier the need for Australia to Those things are only tools, and not the only improve its skills base. The TWU has been ones, to make Australia a better place in involved in this area. The TWU and its which to live. employers in the private transport industry are I have always believed that Labor is about partners in developing and implementing a civilising capitalism, that economic policy is comprehensive training agenda for our indus- not an end in itself. Over the next decade I try. This is being implemented by the Industry 574 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Training Advisory Board. This is an organisa- ORDER OF BUSINESS tion managed by representatives from both the trade union movement and the employers. The Government Business entire project has been supported by the Motion (by Senator Woods)—by leave— industry and the federal government. Its task agreed to: is to design and deliver relevant training to That, after the consideration of government docu- employees in the industry. ments today, government business be further The transport industry has had little experi- considered till 7.20 p.m. ence in delivering structured training. How- THERAPEUTIC GOODS ever, nationally consistent standards have AMENDMENT BILL 1996 (No. 2) been introduced and the industry is now able to develop training programs that are relevant Second Reading and accepted. This training can deliver out- Debate resumed. comes for employers, such as promoting fuel efficiency, competency with technological Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) change and innovation and reducing work- (6.47 p.m.)—Most people would have no place accidents—to name just a few. For trouble with the intention of the Therapeutic drivers, it represents the recognition of skills Goods Amendment Bill. That was quite clear and the building of more rewarding and when the former government introduced this fulfilling career opportunities. This is a win- legislation in its last term of office. One of win situation for the industry. The challenge the most important things about it is its for the coalition is how it responds to these capacity to assist people interested in having initiatives now that it is in government. available for listing and marketing in this I was born in England and my family country various medications. It provides the moved to Australia when I was 10. I was process to make that system more rapid so lucky and grew up here in Canberra. I joined that the drugs can be more quickly available the ACT Labor Party in 1983. My interests to the community. That is a benefit, particu- have always revolved around economic and larly in terms of the costs of having sufficient social justice. Through my work with the time to test scientifically, to do the research union I have developed a keen interest in to make sure that those drugs conform to transport and superannuation issues. I hope to safety, efficacy and quality standards, and to continue to pursue these through the Senate protect what the TGA has been at pains to committee structure. establish over the last number of years—a reputation for excellence. It has done that, and I moved to Victoria in 1987 and have lived that is something we must be at pains to in the west of Melbourne for almost all of protect. that period. I was honoured to be elected to the Footscray Council in 1993, albeit for a Nevertheless, there is room for improve- short period before the Kennett government ment in most systems most of the time. The abolished local councils. We hope that elec- speed at which medications have been able to tions will be held some time in the next 12 get on the register has been in some cases months. My short time in that office was an slow. Indeed, the significant recommendations exciting period when I learnt much about the of the Baume report into the TGA those years needs of a diverse community like the Foots- ago were clearly about making the examin- cray area. ation and approval of medications much more I would now like to thank a number of timely. The people who were involved in this people, first of all Robert Ray, my long-time improvement need to be congratulated. friend and now my colleague; second, all of It is also particularly important to place on my family in England, who I wish were able record the importance of the TGA, its scien- to be here today; and, finally, my mum and tific excellence and the reputation it has dad, who have stood by me always. established which is of benefit to the Austral- Debate (on motion by Senator Parer) ian community and very important for our adjourned. export development and the increased oppor- Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 575 tunity we have for taking or making available me, Senator Harradine, because you might get that excellence to overseas countries. The me a little cross. Australia ‘R’ or the Australia ‘L’ on medica- What I was going to say, Senator Harra- tions is something that is much sought after dine, is that this matter—that is, an amend- by countries in our region, particularly those ment that you propose to put in the committee in the Asian Pacific region. So the processes stage of this bill dealing with specific con- that we are talking about here and the impact cerns about the importation of abortifacients of the amendments are particularly important. into this country—has long been known to be However, the reason I want to speak on this of serious consideration and concern to you. bill is to put on record some comments about I very much respect those views, Senator, and the proposed amendments, particularly the I respect the views of people who hold quite amendment by Senator Harradine, going as it different views from me. I would also like to does to matters of great importance and think that others in the community respected raising significant questions about the whole my right to hold a slightly different view. process that I have just talked about. But what is more important than the ques- Debate interrupted. tions I want to ask you—and I will certainly DOCUMENTS be asking you them during the committee stage—goes to the exact way you have Consideration shaped your amendment, which I think raises The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT matters of some concern. They are the ones (Senator Colston)—Order! It being 6.50 I want to put on the record here tonight. p.m., I call on government documents. There First, I have just referred to the excellence being no discussion of government docu- established by the TGA over a number of ments, the debate on the second reading of years. One of the ways it has been able to do the Therapeutic Goods Amendment Bill will this is by its scientific arm’s length approach be resumed. to assessment. But I am not at all sure, Sena- THERAPEUTIC GOODS tor Harradine, that one of your amendments AMENDMENT BILL 1996 (No. 2) does not threaten to jeopardise that, at least to Second Reading some extent. It singles out a class of medica- Debate resumed. tions for certain purposes. Therefore, it is at Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) least in danger of suggesting that this catego- (6.50 p.m.)—Mr Acting Deputy President, it ry of medications is different and requires a must be said that even after 13 years in this different approach. That at least is a minimum place you still have the capacity to completely approach. It may not be of major significance trick me with the procedures. I understood but I think it has some importance. from what Senator Woods said that we were Secondly, I want to comment at the com- going to proceed to 7.20 p.m., and I appreci- mittee stage—but I want to raise the point ate that. So I knew there would be a small here—on part of your amendment which interruption, but now some people are indicat- reads: ing to me that it may not be appropriate for "1A. Subsection 3(1): me to talk about an amendment before that Insert: amendment has been moved. I am quite sure ‘"restricted goods" means drugs within regula- that senators are free to talk about whatever tion 2 of the Therapeutic Goods Regulations they like, but if this is absolutely, completely (including progesterone antagonists and vaccines contra dig could I please be advised of it? I against human chorionic gonadotrophin) intended do not believe it is, is it, Senator Harradine? for use in women as abortifacients. No, it is not. Thank you very much for that My concern is: at what stage does the inten- timely intervention over the chamber that tion of use need to be clear, particularly as might have discommoded me. No, it does not you require under this amendment the discommode me at all, Senator. I intend to minister to make a decision in writing about say it and I will. But you should not provoke whether or not such a medication can be 576 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 approved. It is very problematic because some two, particularly in terms of its constituency of the medications under this classification and so on. There is a concern about singling currently get into this country under the these drugs out. I have an extra concern about special access scheme for other than use as how and when you would be clarifying the abortifacients. It is going to be a very interest- intent to use. ing problem to be requiring the people mak- I would like to have these concerns on the ing application to be able to persuade the record, particularly because I appreciate minister and for the minister to be assured Senator Harradine’s commitment and concern and certain that it is intended for use as an in this area. I would like to be absolutely sure abortifacient. that any amendment that is moved and any What if the medication is to be used for the change in process that will result from the treatment of Cushing’s tumour, adrenal passage of such an amendment will not cancer, brain tumour or breast cancer? At jeopardise the objectivity and scientific rigour what stage in the process under your amend- of the TGA. I suspect it will not, or at least ment, Senator, do those very curly issues a case will be able to be made for that, but at become clear? That is the first point of con- least in part a case can be made for the other cern I have about your amendment. I am very way. These drugs are singled out and I would aware of the numbers in this chamber and I like to know how you see that process work- am very aware of what the outcome of this ing, because it could put that in jeopardy. I amendment will be. I am not here to argue reiterate a great concern I have about the hotly against it but I am interested in the words ‘intended for use’ and exactly when opportunity presented to me to raise serious that intention will be discovered, and by concerns. whom. My concerns do not go to the philosophical I also have a concern that your amendment or moral debate. They go to my concern proposes that such approval for these medica- about arm’s length scientific rigour being tions to come into this country must be given maintained by the TGA. They go to a certain in writing by the minister. Again, I think this confusion I have about the wording of this will create another layer of concern. I certain- amendment ‘intended for use . . . as aborti- ly have some points to make about this. I am facients’, particularly when some of those concerned about the potential to hold the medications are already brought into this minister to ransom. Senator Harradine, you country under the special access scheme for are one person who, I think, would understand other than use as abortifacients. exactly how the gun lobby has held ministers There are a number of people who have a and members in this country to ransom over major concern about this proposed amend- the last number of years. ment because of the singling out of medica- It has taken a tragedy for people who have tions to be used as abortifacients. People feel previously been concerned about what would there will be some problem about the ongoing be the electoral implications to move beyond question of women’s health, their access to that. Here I give great credit to the leadership treatment and, in particular, their access to of Prime Minister Howard and Leader of the termination of pregnancy if that is what they Opposition Kim Beazley—particularly Mr are advised or what they choose. I am inter- Howard in this case. But it is awful that it has ested in and will be listening closely to how taken a tragedy to move people beyond being you see that your proposal will not in any held to ransom in their own electorates. We way jeopardise those concerns. know that that has been the case. A very large number of people have written I am concerned that there could be the to me, not only the Public Health Association holding to ransom of a minister about the and the Family Planning Association of importation of medications if the minister is Australia, but also the Australian Pharmaceu- bound to give approval before the medication tical Manufacturers Association—a group is introduced. I am also concerned that this which is singularly different from the first amendment does not require the minister to Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 577 say why the minister would not give an can count on it in future. I hope that is the approval. That is, the requirement for the case. minister to report is clear but the requirement In the few minutes left to me I would like for the minister to report why there was not to raise the point that abortifacients are a approval is absent. That is a bit of a defect in restricted good under the customs restricted the proposed amendment. importations legislation. They are category 1 As I understand your amendment, Senator, as I understand, but I might be inaccurate you are also proposing that the minister’s about that. Underneath them is a second approval be a disallowable instrument in this category called ‘aphrodisiacs’. A few hundred place. Again, I would suggest that that is years ago witches were burned at the stake for something I will very strongly argue against. coming up with mumbo jumbo like aphrodis- I am not sure if you can indicate to me across iacs. I find it quite remarkable that they are the chamber whether that will be proceeding still listed there. My parting comment would or not. I gather it is not proceeding. I thank be that, if we had more restriction of aphro- you for that, Senator Harradine. I think that disiacs, we would need less restriction on there is great wisdom in that because, again, abortifacients. it is a very provocative and possibly a very Senator LEES (South Australia—Deputy dangerous precedent and challenging amend- Leader of the Australian Democrats) (7.02 ment. p.m.)—I will keep my comments brief tonight Even so, the minister’s approval is going to in the hope that we can at least get through have to be gazetted, and that still allows for the second reading stage of this bill, which a concern in the community to be raised at seems to have been on the Notice Paper every opportunity by somebody drawing to forever. It goes back to last September when attention in this place—or to communities or it went through the House of Representatives. lobby groups—that such approval has been I just say, though, that the industry groups are given. very keen for this to go ahead. Among other things, it will establish new procedures for One of the things that I think Australia listing, on the Australian Register of Thera- needs to be congratulated for is the way that, peutic Goods, drugs for supply and use in by and large, we muddle through with a fair Australia—and the sorts of drugs we are amount of equanimity, even when people hold talking about are vitamin supplements, herbal significant and passionately held different remedies, herbal medicines, et cetera. It will views. We do not have, at this stage, too also clarify the distinction between food and many people shot because they either provide therapeutic goods to minimise some of the termination of pregnancy or seek it. We had confusion about what is actually regulated a police raid a few years ago in Brisbane that under the act. It will also amend the proced- set an example that nobody wants to ever see ures for reviewing decisions relating to the followed in this country. registration of therapeutic goods on the Passions run high on some of these issues Australian Register of Therapeutic Goods. and, by and large, Australia has managed this I now want to briefly deal with some longer very fraught debate with a fair amount of term problems with the therapeutic goods even-handedness. I would hope that that legislation. I understand the minister is aware continues, and I would suggest that there is of these. I want to draw the Senate’s attention the possibility, with the reporting of this in to the fact that no new substances have been the Gazette by the minister, that it will lead approved for use in natural products in Aus- to recurring or more often occurring debates tralia since the introduction of this legislation, on this very fraught issue. and that was back in the late 1980s. I believe Perhaps you would say, Senator Harradine, this is due to what really are very difficult that I have just answered my own argument approval processes for these substances. I and that if we draw on the history of look forward to the secretariat representing Australia’s reasonableness to this point we the minister giving us some time lines for 578 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996 looking at some of the longer term problems groups to put enormous pressure on individual with this piece of legislation. members of parliament, and on the minister I cannot go and leave my comments tonight in particular, to get their particular view at just that. I believe I have to comment on across. what has become the substantive debate about I obviously accept the right—indeed in this this legislation, and that concerns Senator country we appreciate the right—to all have Harradine’s amendments. Obviously, Senator individual views, but I believe that by making Harradine has a longstanding interest in these this particular drug subjected to this second issues. test, it will simply deter manufacture. It will Senator Harradine—I have not moved deter those people who have developed these them. drugs overseas from ever seeking approval in this country. I may be wrong, but I believe Senator LEES—I realise that the amend- with RU486 that has already happened. I will ments have not been moved but they certainly have more to say on these particular amend- have been circulated since we saw this legis- ments in the committee stage. lation last year. Senator WOODS (New South Wales— Senator Harradine interjecting— Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Senator LEES—I will speak very briefly Health and Family Services) (7.07 p.m.)— to the amendments that Senator Harradine This legislation is brought forward by the intends to move. I will speak in greater detail government as a priority bill for introduction when we get to the stage of actually debating and for passage in this session. The provisions that. of the bill will establish a new accelerated process for placing listable drugs supplied in While respecting Senator Harradine’s views, Australia on the ARTG, the Australian Regis- opinions and beliefs on this issue, I do have ter of Therapeutic Goods. This new process to make it very clear to senators that what we should significantly reduce the approval times are voting for, if we support those amend- to a matter of weeks without affecting the ments, is a restriction on women for the right quality or the safety of the products in any to choose. They are restricting a woman’s way. choice, to require her to terminate a pregnan- cy only by surgical means. They will effec- Under the new scheme, the products must tively take away what is now termed the meet the same criteria as they currently do. morning after pill or RU486 and future The criteria include a statement that the goods generations of this pill or a similar substance. are safe for the purposes for which they are to be used, being the purposes identified in I do not believe it will be achieved by the the application for marketing and not other minister saying yes or no. I believe that the purposes which go beyond the accepted effect of these amendments will be to discour- indications for the therapeutic uses of that age and dissuade manufacturers from trying product. The scheme also provides a much to walk the two courses. The normal course better definition of some poorly understood of events for any medication that is possibly aspects of the national regulatory scheme for dangerous is to have medical and scientific therapeutic goods which have been identified evaluation. Of course these drugs, and indeed in the first five years of its operation. a wide rang of drugs, particularly some of those that are used for treating cancers and A mechanism to address shortages or lack some of the experimental drugs in the HIV- of essential drugs required by the public in AIDS area, have to undergo the most rigorous emergency situations has also been included, possible medical and scientific testing that along with amendments that update and they can. But by singling out this particular consolidate in a new part of the act the entry, type of drug, we are setting another course, a search and warrant powers to enforce that political course—a political series of hur- legislation. dles—and, as Senator Crowley has already This bill introduces changes to align the said, opening it up for particular interest monetary penalties in the current legislation Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 579 with the penalty units classification used in mation from Australia’s trading partners of other Commonwealth regulatory legislation, their willingness to accept those goods which as well as closing a gap in the current scheme have been refused marketing approval in in regard to the removal of illegal therapeutic Australia extends to all products irrespective goods of unknown quality or safety or effi- of whether they have been manufactured in cacy from the market. Australia or elsewhere. Also included in this bill are provisions to Overall, this bill will benefit Australia’s permit warrantless entry of premises to seize therapeutic industry and further enhance goods, but limiting this power to situations Australia’s role as a leader in drug evaluation, where there is an imminent public health risk registration and regulation in the region. The of death or serious injury and where there are main act has now been in place for some five reasonable grounds for believing that illegal or six years and, although it has generally activity is taking place. worked well, there have been some prob- The definition for food has been inserted to lems—and they were touched upon by Sena- clarify the interface between food and drugs. tor Lees. As a result of that, the government Problems have arisen from the present defini- will be reviewing the workings of the bill and tion of therapeutic goods which excludes food reviewing the bill in consultation with the but fails to define the term. What constitutes appropriate industries, some members of food in the bill will be linked to the presenta- whom I see in the gallery here today, and we tion and promotion of a product in the mar- hope to do that in the fairly near future. I ket. The words ‘prescribed dose’ and ‘fre- commend this bill to the Senate. quency of administration’ included in the Question resolved in the affirmative. definition are to be read in a pharmaceutical Bill read a second time. sense and are not intended to encompass serving suggestions applied to or normally In Committee associated with food and beverages. The bill. The appeal provisions in the Therapeutic Senator HARRADINE (Tasmania) (7.11 Goods Act 1989 relating to the review of p.m.)—by leave—I move: decisions to register therapeutic goods have Schedule 1, page 3, after item 1, insert: also been tightened. This will ensure that technical and scientific data that should be 1A Subsection 3(1) lodged in connection with a general marketing Insert: application will be evaluated before a review restricted goods means drugs within regula- on merits is undertaken by the Administration tion 2 of the Therapeutic Goods Regulations Appeals Tribunal. (including progesterone antagonists and vaccines against human chronic gonadotro- The bill also corrects a defect in the legisla- phin) intended for use in women as abortifa- tion regarding the ability of the secretary to cients. approve the inclusion on the ARTG of pro- Schedule 1, page 4 (after line 3), after item 3, ducts for export only where those products insert: have been refused marketing approval in 3A After Section 6 Australia. In those circumstances, the secre- tary is currently empowered to require confir- Insert: mation that the relevant authority of the 6AA Importation of restricted goods country to which the goods are to be exported (1) In spite of any other provision of this is willing to accept the goods. This power is Act, a person must not, without the however limited to goods that have been written approval of the Minister, import manufactured in Australia for export only and any restricted goods into Australia. does not extend to products imported into Penalty: 300 penalty units. Australia solely for re-export. The bill propos- (2) A written approval may be given: es that this provision be amended to ensure (a) unconditionally or subject to condi- that the secretary’s ability to require confir- tions; or 580 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

(b) in respect of particular restricted However, Senator Crowley chose to do it the goods or classes of restricted goods. latter way. (3) It is an offence to breach a condition of The purpose of these amendments is per- an approval. fectly clear: to ensure that these particular Penalty: 200 penalty units. drugs, which are significantly different in (4) A written approval shall be laid before nature to other drugs which are termed thera- each House of the Parliament by the peutic goods, should not be left entirely in the Minister within 5 sitting days of being hands of science technologists and the spon- given. sors of the particular drugs. (5) Unless: I have distributed to honourable senators (a) a written approval is in effect; and explanations of the amendments. The first (b) the Minister has notified the Comp- amendment seeks to establish restricted goods troller-General in writing of the as defined. That is to say, drugs within regu- approval; lation 2 of the therapeutic goods regulations— restricted goods are for the purpose including progesterone antagonists and vac- of the Customs Act 1901 taken to be cines against human chorionic gonadotro- prohibited imports. phin—intended for use in women as abortifa- 6AB Exempt goods cients. Regulations exempting restricted goods The bill that we are currently discussing is, from the operation of a Part of this Act must not take effect before the expiration in fact, a bill that was first read in the Senate of the time within which a House of the on 16 October last year. The government Parliament may disallow the regulations. sought to have the bill dealt with during the Schedule 1, page 9 (after line 5), after item 22, time for debating non-controversial legisla- insert: tion. The government at that particular stage 22A Before section 23 (in Division 2) indicated that it desired to deal with this matter as a non-controversial debate. That was Insert: overturned because members of the govern- 23AA Ministerial approval of evaluation, ment themselves realised that, with my registration or listing of restricted goods. amendments, it could not be so regarded as (1) In spite of any provision of this Divi- non-controversial. sion, restricted goods must not be evaluated or registered or listed without I have had correspondence from the Aus- the written approval of the Minister. tralian Pharmaceutical Manufacturers Associa- (2) A written approval shall be laid before tion and Proprietary Medicines Association of each House of the Parliament by the Australia strongly opposing the proposed Minister within 5 sitting days of being amendments on the basis that the Therapeutic given. Goods Administration processes require an Schedule 1, item 75, page 29, after subsection independent scientific and clinical assessment 57(8), insert: as to the safety, quality and efficacy of (9) The Minister must not delegate his or particular drugs sponsored. It was these her powers or functions under section processes which moved me to propose this 6AA or 23AA. amendment. Let me make it perfectly clear that the con- As a result of the Baume review in 1993, cerns expressed by Senator Crowley were the controls over clinical trials in Australia unwarranted. I was trying to suggest it might have very much loosened. The new clinical have been better for people to listen to the trials notification scheme, the CTN scheme, arguments advanced in support of these simply requires the sponsor to notify the amendments prior to dealing with them at the Therapeutic Goods Administration of the trial second reading stage. I did not suggest that it of unapproved products and send a certificate was necessarily against standing orders for of approval given by an institutional ethics that to be done; but I thought that it might committee. On the payment of the $110 CTN have been a better way of dealing with them. notification fee, the Therapeutic Goods Ad- Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 581 ministration allows it to proceed prior to the approved the clinical trial in New South consideration by the Australian Drug Evalu- Wales. ation Committee, ADEC, and possible listing The question should be asked: how were on the Australian Register of Therapeutic those drugs bought in and for what purpose Goods, ARTG, for marketing purposes. were they bought in? The drug RU486 was I now want to turn to the drug RU486. I principally developed to be used in develop- really do not think that patronising statements ing countries for population control. either from Senator Lees or Senator Crowley Senator Lees—That is not the problem. in relation to respecting my views, whilst I Senator HARRADINE—It is a great am grateful for those comments— problem for the women in those countries Senator Lees—They were not intended to who are suffering desperately because of the be patronising at all. use of these dangerous substances. The fact is that despite the public undertaking given by Senator HARRADINE—That’s good. I former Senator Richardson, when he was would have thought that anybody who regard- minister for health, that this drug would not ed the health of women as very important be imported without the involvement of the would be supporting this particular measure. minister, it was imported. It was imported I have a book on the subject of the drug because an officer of the TGA undermined RU486 which was written by people who that public undertaking. obviously have differing views from me on Progress reported. abortion. The book was written by Dr Renate Klein, Dr Janice Raymond and Dr Lynette ADJOURNMENT Dumble. People ought to have a look at this The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT book. These people, who have intellectual (Senator Calvert)—Order! It being 7.20 p.m., integrity and are professional, have written a I propose the question: book about this matter from a radical feminist That the Senate do now adjourn. point of view. Whistleblowing Senator Lees—We can also choose not to support radical feminists. Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (7.20 p.m.)—I rise tonight to speak very briefly on Senator HARRADINE—That is quite so. two matters I raised last year. On 29 Novem- All I am pointing out is that this is a matter ber last year, the second last day of the that goes across the borders of the abortion sitting, I spoke on the adjournment debate debate. It goes to very important areas. I have about a whistleblowing matter. Senators will a similar book written by Judith Richter be aware that I have taken quite an interest in which deals with the anti-hCG vaccine. They the whole issue of whistleblowing in Austral- are here to be read. I would have thought that, ia, and particularly in my home state of rather than dealing with this matter in the Queensland. context of the pro- or anti-abortion debate, we In that speech I wanted to table some should deal with it on the basis that these documents, but, due to the hectic atmosphere particular drugs are quite different in nature at the time, this was not possible. I wish to and purpose from any other drug. table those documents tonight. I need to I will proceed to deal with the RU486 indicate to the Senate that I gave copies to the matter. The sponsor of this drug, Professor opposition whip and the deputy government David Healy of Monash University’s Depart- whip, Senator Calvert, who also consulted the ment of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, sought Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for approval for this drug not from the Monash Trade and the Minister for Primary Industries University ethics committee but from the and Energy, Senator Brownhill. They have all human ethics committee of the Family Plan- given approval for the tabling of these docu- ning Association of Victoria. The Family ments. Planning Association of New South Wales Leave granted. 582 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Senator WOODLEY—Those documents to people who were interested and others who relate, first of all, to ongoing efforts by a had taken part in it. I think what the young dairy farmer in Queensland to get his con- people who attended that conference—there cerns investigated by the Criminal Justice were about 117 students from schools all Commission in Queensland. Those documents around Australia—said would be of interest outline his concerns and contain copies of to all senators. I seek leave to incorporate in various correspondence relating to his efforts. Hansard the communique that was issued at The second matter is one about which I the end of the deliberations. I showed it spoke in this chamber just the other day: the earlier to Senator Chris Evans. Senate committee report into Eastlink. During Leave granted. that speech I quoted from a document pre- The communique read as follows— pared by Mr Don Maisch. In October 1994, CONSTITUTIONAL CENTENARY FOUN- my Democrat colleague Senator Bell tabled a DATION report from Mr Maisch on electromagnetic fields. This latest document is his reply to NATIONAL SCHOOLS CONSTITUTIONAL criticisms made by the electricity industry to CONVENTION the initial report. 28-30 March, Parliament House, Canberra I believe the issue of the potential health COMMUNIQUE impacts of electromagnetic radiation is an The first National Schools Constitutional Conven- important debate which needs much more tion was held in the Main Committee Room, consideration. It is in the public interest as Parliament House, Canberra on 29-30 March l996. well as in the interest of the electricity indus- One hundred and seventeen student delegates from try and the government that the issue be more 104 schools from all sectors in every Australian fully examined. I will quote just one para- State and Territory took part in the Convention graph from the document which in itself organised by the Constitutional Centenary Founda- tion. Most delegates had participated earlier in the demonstrates why the issue is of such import- round of regional and state schools constitutional ance. The quote was originally taken from the conventions which culminated in the 1996 National journal of the American Bar Association: Convention. Presently, more studies exist that appear to link The Convention was opened by Senator Margaret Electromagnetic Field exposure to an increased risk Reid, who was introduced by Sir Ninian Stephen, of cancer than existed linking asbestos exposure to the Chair of the Constitutional Centenary Founda- an increased rate of cancer at a similar embryonic tion. Senator Reid delivered an address on behalf stage of asbestos litigation. of the Prime Minister, which drew parallels be- tween the Schools Convention and the purpose and National Schools Constitutional function of the People’s Convention to be held in Convention 1997. In particular, the Prime Minister noted the Senator REID (Australian Capital Terri- importance of "open inquiry and debate" on constitutional matters and stated his Government’s tory) (7.24 p.m.)—I wish to speak briefly commitment to "foster and encourage calm and tonight about an event which took place in serious debate about Australia’s Constitution so Canberra on 29 and 30 March 1996. It was that, if changes are to be made, they can be made the National Schools Constitutional Conven- with wide understanding and support". tion convened by the Constitutional Centenary Other speakers included Senator Natasha Stott Foundation, the chairman of which is Sir Despoja, Senator Bill O’Chee, Professor Elaine Ninian Stephen. I was asked by the Prime Thomson, Ms Pat Turner, and Ms Cassandra Minister (Mr Howard) to represent him in Gelade. The Governor-General, Sir William Deane, opening the convention. From this place spoke to delegates about the significance of their task at the opening reception at Government House. Senator Natasha Stott Despoja and Senator The Editor-in-Chief of the Canberra Times, Mr Bill O’Chee, as well as others, addressed the Jack Waterford, addressed the conference dinner at convention. the High Court of Australia. The convention divided the topics into three Convention delegates discussed three main issues; main issues and, at the end of their deliber- Future directions for Australia’s Head of ations, issued a communique, which was sent State? Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 583

Protection of rights: by the Courts or Parlia- Other options included: ment? an informed referendum of the people; A new preamble to our Constitution? a High Court decision to dismiss, after consul- Their conclusions on each of the issues were as tation with the government; follows: dismissal for an unconstitutional act only. FUTURE DIRECTIONS FOR AUSTRALIA’S 6. What role should the Head of State play in the HEAD OF STATE Australian system of government? 1. Should Australia become a republic? There was general agreement that the powers of the Head of State should remain basically the There was a strong feeling for a republic; but a same ie: an essentially ceremonial non executive significant number of delegates wanted to keep Head of State. the constitutional monarchy. Many delegates considered that they needed further details of the 7. Should the powers of the Head of State be arguments and information about models for a spelt out in the Constitution? republic before reaching a decision. There was great division on this point. Some Delegates noted that the remaining questions delegates wanted strict codification. Others were all concerned with possible models for a favoured more broad codification, to allow republic and did not enable further consideration flexibility. Others wanted the same system of to be given to other reasons for keeping the conventions to remain. monarchy. The purpose of dealing with them was 8. What other changes, if any, should be made to to work out what the alternatives to a monarchy the Australian Constitution ? might be, so as to enable a more informed There was no time to discuss these issues in decision to be made. depth. Possibilities mentioned by delegates, 2. Should Australia have a Head of State at all? however, and considered to varying degrees, There was general consensus that we should have included: a Head of State, separate from the leader of the change to the preamble; government. removal of obvious references to the Queen; 3. How should the Head of State be appointed? clarification of the powers of levels of govern- Generally, direct popular election was not ment; favoured; however, some form of public input general agreement that the Constitution should had support. be made more accessible to the people; Election by two-thirds majority of both Houses statehood for territories; was widely accepted; however, the nomination modifications to the electoral system (preferen- method was controversial. Suggestions included tial/proportional); a petition, nomination by the Prime Minister and nomination/election by parliamentary committee. reference to the Prime Minister and Cabinet in the executive chapter of the Constitution; 4. For how long, and with what qualifications? four year term parliaments; There was a consensus for a fixed term, of between 5-7 years, and general consensus that a bill of rights; the appointment should not coincide with elec- 9. What are the implications of a republic for the tions. There were also some delegates who links with the Crown at State level? Should all thought that the Head of State should be able to parts of Australia become a republic at the be appointed for a further term. same time? Should the Australian Constitution It was unanimously decided that the Head of require this to happen, or should it be left for State should be an Australian citizen and apoliti- decision by each State? cal, with suggestions of a period of grace after Generally, a unified move was wanted, meaning political life before selection as Head of State that all States should change to a republic at the was possible. same time. However, there was division over the rights of States and territories to decide for There was division over whether the Head of themselves whether to become a republic and State should be able to hold dual citizenship. over whether this should be required by the 5. How should the Head of State be dismissed? Australian Constitution. Many delegates favoured dismissal by a two Generally, State Governors should be appointed thirds majority of a Joint Sitting of the Parlia- in the same manner as the President. Some ment; however, this was a major concern of anti- delegates disagreed, on the ground that there republicans. should be no State governors at all. 584 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

10. How can necessary changes to achieve a tensions. There was a general preference that republic be made? issues relating to indigenous Australians be Education, information and informed debate were addressed in the constitutional preamble. There seen as vital. was a consensus that education and communica- tion were essential for the improvement of There was general support for a People’s Con- relations with indigenous Australians. vention. All agreed that changes should be made by 4. Characteristics of a Bill of Rights referendum; however, there was disagreement If Australia were to have a Bill of Rights, most over whether there should be a separate referen- delegates thought that it should expressly balance dum for each proposal. rights against the interests of the community. PROTECTION OF RIGHTS: BY COURTS OR There was also some support for Parliament to PARLIAMENT? be able to override rights protected in a constitu- 1. Should the rights of individuals and groups tional Bill of Rights, although there was some receive better protection in Australia, by being concern about the circumstances in which it included in the Constitution and enforced by should be able to do so. the courts? (i.e. should Australia have a Bill or A NEW PREAMBLE FOR THE Charter of Rights in the Constitution?) CONSTITUTION? The majority of delegates was opposed to a Bill of Rights, with a minority in favour and a 1. Should the preamble be changed? substantial number of delegates undecided. Delegates agreed unanimously that the preamble The majority was concerned that a Bill of Rights should be changed. would be too inflexible, and that it would be difficult to change as community values changed. 2. In what circumstances should it be changed? Some delegates also were concerned that a Bill A very substantial majority agreed that the of Rights would be ambiguous and interpreted in preamble should be changed irrespective of the ways that were not intended. outcome of the republican debate, because there 2. What other means, if any, should be taken to were reasons for change apart from the refer- protect rights? ences to the Crown. All delegates agreed that statements in the preamble about the Crown, (or While some delegates thought that rights were anything else) should be consistent with sufficiently protected already, a majority thought Australia’s current constitutional arrangements, they could be better protected. There was con- as expressed in the body of the Constitution. siderable support for protection through an "organic law", which could only be changed by 3. What changes should be made? a special majority of the Parliament (eg two thirds). It was noted that the Constitution might There was widespread agreement that the pre- need to be amended to enable organic laws to be amble should be completely rewritten, although made. some elements of the current preamble might be retained. Logically, the new preamble should be 3. Is the answer different for different categories included in the Constitution itself, by referen- of rights? dum, rather than left as the preamble to the Delegates noted the distinction between different Constitution Act. A small minority of delegates categories of rights. There was greater willing- sought more limited changes to the preamble ness to include certain civil and political rights, which might, on this view, remain in the Act including equality rights, in the Constitution. A rather than the Constitution. The uncertainty majority took the view that economic and social about the way in which changes of this kind rights should be included in an organic law. might be brought about was noted, with the There was some discussion about the definition choice lying between co-operation between the of environmental rights, as the meaning of this Commonwealth and all State Parliaments or new category of rights was not fully understood. approval at referendum. Delegates divided over whether they should be included in organic law. Delegates reached the following conclusions about matters to be included in the preamble. There was division amongst delegates over indigenous rights. The discussion centred on Recognition of the indigenous peoples of whether a declaration of indigenous rights should Australia—by majority. be separate from a declaration of the rights of all Inclusion of all States and territories—although Australians. It was considered that such segrega- delegates divided on whether they should be tion of indigenous rights may aggravate racial individually mentioned or not. Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 585

Delegates divided over whether the preamble The following documents were tabled by should contain a reference to religious beliefs. A the Clerk: minority considered that religious beliefs should be mentioned in connection with the moral Christmas Island Act—Customs (Amendment) values. Ordinance 1996—No. 1 of 1996. Civil Aviation Act—Civil Aviation Regula- Brief mention of the history of the Constitu- tions—Civil Aviation Orders—Directives—Part tion, including the British constitutional inherit- 105, dated 24[2] April and 6[4] May 1996. ance. Cocos (Keeling) Islands Act—Customs (Amend- Respect and responsibility for the environment. ment) Ordinance 1996—No. 1 of 1996. National identity. Native Title Act—Determinations under section 202—Representative Aboriginal/Torres Strait Government as representative of the people. Islander body—Nos 2: 1996 and 3: 1996. Continued association with the Commonwealth of Nations. Equality and unity of all Australians. 4. How should they be made? There was general agreement that public contri- bution towards the content of a new preamble was important. The preamble states matters that are most significant for society as a whole. It should be written in general language that "citizen Jo" can understand. It might be learnt in primary school and distributed to people as a statement about the nature of Australia and Australians. It might be printed on birth certifi- cates and citizenship certificates. Ways considered by the Convention to involve the public in these decisions included: A plebiscite at which electors are asked to express a preference between, say 5 options, followed by a referendum at which electors decide whether or not to adopt the preferred version. As an alternative, an earlier plebiscite still might ask for an expression of opinion about various possible components of a preamble (on a yes/no basis), to assist with the development of the options for preambles themselves. Alternatively, public views about the content of possible preambles might be obtained through the Convention or public hearings. Senate adjourned at 7.25 p.m. DOCUMENTS Tabling The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Security (Senator Kemp) tabled the following government document: Australian Securities Commission—Investigation into the affairs of Aust-Home Investments Ltd and others—Condensed report, dated 19 October 1995 586 SENATE Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Indexed Lists The following documents were tabled pursuant to the Order of the Senate of 28 June 1994: Indexed lists of departmental files for the period 1 July 1995 to 31 December 1995: Communications and the Arts. Industrial Relations. Social Security. Veterans’ Affairs.

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

The following answers to questions were circulated:

Importation of Pig Middles purely for evaluation and testing and was not used for commercial purposes. (Question No. 2) (a) This information is commercial-in-confidence. (b) As this consignment was used for evaluation Senator Woodley asked the Minister at a Quarantine Approved Premises prior to dispos- representing the Minister for Primary Indus- al by autoclaving or incineration, processing details tries and Energy, upon notice, on 19 March are not relevant. 1996: (2) The labels used for marketing the pig middles would be determined by the importer, wholesaler (1) Have any consignments of pig middles or retailer of the product. Under current arrange- arrived in Australia recently; if so, for each con- ments, labels are required to comply with the signment received: (a) which broker(s) imported the provisions of: pig middles; and (b) which processor is processing the pig middles. the Trade Practices Act 1974 (TPA) which prohibits false and misleading labelling of all (2) Under what labels will the pig middles be products (not just food); marketed. the Australian Food Standards Code which (3) If no consignments of pig middles have requires all packaged and certain unpackaged arrived in Australia, are they soon to be imported. food to carry country of origin labelling; and (4) When will the Government’s proposed the Commerce (Imports) Regulations for changes to: (a) anti-dumping legislation; and (b) imports which require certain goods (including food origin labelling be introduced into Parliament. food) to bear a trade description. Senator Parer—The Minister for Primary At present there are no definitions provided in Industries and Energy has provided the the TPA, the Food Standards Code or the import following answer to the honourable senator’s regulations for descriptions of claims to Australian question: origin. The Federal Court has decided that products can be described as ‘made’ or ‘produced’ in a (1) Consignments of pig middles are only able country if the product acquires its essential charac- to be imported from Canada or the southern island ter or qualities in that country. Case law provides of New Zealand. AQIS has no record of any industries with guidance how to apply country of importations of pig middles from the southern origin claims to specific products. island of New Zealand. Only one consignment of pork middles has been imported from Canada since (3) This information is commercial-in-confidence. December 1995. This consignment was imported (4) (a) During the 1996 election campaign, the Wednesday, 8 May 1996 SENATE 587

Government pledged to improve anti-dumping and countervailing procedures, including reducing the time taken to obtain dumping remedies, to ensure Australian producers are not disadvantaged. The Minister for Industry, Science and Tourism is now considering the steps necessary to give effect to this commitment. A timeframe for action will be drawn up when these steps have been determined. (b) The issue of food origin labelling is currently being considered by the National Food Authority (NFA). The NFA has advised that it is developing a draft standard setting out country of origin labelling requirements for food products to be included in the Food Standards Code. The draft standard is based on a three tiered system of origin labelling definitions agreed to by the food indus- try, unions, and farmer and consumer associations. Once finalised, the proposed changes will be considered by the NFA Board. The NFA will then make its recommendation to the National Food Standards Council (NFSC). The NFSC is comprised of Health Ministers who are responsible for food standards at the Commonwealth, State and Territory level. A majority of Ministers must approve the recommendation before it comes into effect. There are dispute resolution procedures in place should any members disagree. A lead time of at least 12 months after gazettal will be permitted to allow manufacturers to make the necessary labelling changes. The NFA advises that it should be able to make its recommendation to the NFSC within the next few months.